How to spot the English
Sometimes I play this game when arriving in a strange town on my European travels: if I were plonked down here, could I guess where I was? In an increasingly globalised, homogenous world it should be tricky.
Now that rather eccentric, rounded red building could be a Rathaus - a town hall - in Germany or Austria. Those gabled windows could be Dutch. The sweeping, ugly, 1960s low-rise shops could be found all over Europe. But there's no decay - they are clean and well-maintained. A prosperous place obviously, and something says "southern England". Apart from the obvious difficulty of suspending disbelief, language is the give-away. "E karn arf drinkalot" says a bloke to his companion, as they pass me in the street.
Then there is behaviour. A beautiful woman in her late teens or early twenties sits in a curry house, with - I guess - her sister and her children. She's howling drunk.
"We know they're married."
"Married?"
"Well, it's better than bumping into them in Morrisons," sis says in consolation.
As the curtain descends on this tantalising glimpse of romantic disappointment the woman staggers outside. Arms waving, she manages to drop her unlit cigarette twice. It is a mystery how we Brits got a reputation for reserve and stiff upper lip. We are surely as demonstrative as any Latin, if requiring a little lubrication. I write this with no intention of censure and certainly not moral superiority, but surely this could only be England.
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A Budapest barman of my acquaintance was recently asked how he could tell when a bunch of Brits came in. 'Easy', he explained. 'They are the only ones who can't speak English'
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Oh how true. I find it funny when foreign premiership footballers speak the language better than most of the homegrown players, some of whom take the lack of articulacy to fabulous depths.
Oddly, I find many British towns profoundly depressing and homogeneous, with the same chain selling the same old tat. I found Aalborg in Denmark and Paris, for example, some much more interesting. And I also found that les Parisiens are not a bunch of miserable, sneering gits if you take the trouble to speak some French. It really helps. And the Danes like a drink, but they don't feel the need to beat each other up in the street.
What does this say about us Brits?
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Oh, these foreign immigrants who don't even try to speak the language; who buy up local shops, bars and cafés - then sell their own national goods and drinks, etc.; and install satellite dishes so they can watch their national programmes and films, etc.; sign on for Social Security benefits; and .... and ... and.
Yes, it's the Brits abroad.
We live in France, speak French (badly), watch only French TV, and (Yes) support our new country's international sports teams. Yet we are constantly disappointed by other Brits that we occasionally come across (often asking for help from us - even tho they've been here longer than us!).
Our sister-in-law, in Spain, has exactly the same experience as us.
As illuminatusmagister (some nom-de-plume!) says, the locals appreciate even poor efforts to speak their language.
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how to spot a english ma is getting very hard these days even in engalnd
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Easy: The English are generally fatter and slovenlier, and speak 'orrible English. (No scoffing in the Fringes, please: the Scots and Welsh look no better!)
(Written, in sorrow, by an Englishman)
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The way to spot the British abroad in a European town is watch us crossing the road! Take Hannover for example. There are some very wide roads, traffic is able to move off and turn right on red lights into the path of pedestrians, which is most unsettling, and we constantly need to check and check again which way the traffic was driving before stepping out!
At home, the British are renowned and safe jay walkers, crossing the road whenever it is safe to do so. We also have pedestrian crossings where drivers stop for pedestrians, something which just doesn't seem to happen elsewhere in Europe. No wonder we have lower road casualties than everywhere in Europe - only Sweden comes close to our road safety record.
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there is definitely something subtly english about the way we dress. in new york i very often saw a couple or a group of people coming down the street and instinctively knew immediately they were my fellow countrymen. something to do with the type of shirt, the cut of the shorts. can't put my finger on it, but unmistakable.
germans are also very easy to spot.
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btw, message for freeborn-john. i'm not able to post on the ireland thread any more. guess we'll need to take it up again when the opportunity arises.
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While living in continental Europe for a quarter century I found the behaviour of British tourists on the one hand and of British short-contract employees and their children on the other such as to make me carry on speaking the local language and pretend not to be one of them! But I consoled myself with the thought that was just "Brits Abroad".
Returning to live in England after my long absence I was stunned to discover what had happened to my country while my back was turned. The drop in standards of just about anything you care to name was a real shock. The country seems to be overrun with violent drunks, road-rage nutters, jobsworths and foaming-at-the-mouth xenophobes.
Take care Mark. If you spend much more time in Brussels you may end up wishing to see out your time with the BBC by remaining permanently and becoming a European version of Alistair Cooke.
England today is more attractive as a memory than as a reality, more attractive seen from afar than up close.
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I fail to understand the purpose of this blog; are you intending for the English to defend themselves or to agree that there are some (to put it delicatly) undesirable people in the UK?
I think the difference between the British abroad and others is that the British act as though they are still at home, where as everyone else (generally) acts as though they are visiting a friends house and are on there best behaviour.
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Many years ago I was in Germany for an England football match and was told by the locals'Its easy to spot the English - They walk with their hands in their pockets' !
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Spotting the English -
Speaking to foreigners = shout and point.
I must agree with #9- greypolyglot, It is so sad that in the main we cannot speak and write anything other than Englsh.
Even in the BBC blogs we are not permitted to write in a foreign language (other than Welsh or Scots Gaelic) lest we say something that the moderators (or their automated checking software) do not understand. I have sometimes wanted to cite original German or French texts to support an argument and even a little Latin but I know I will be 'moderated'!
We have a perverse pride in being anti-intellectual (and innumerate) and it is very very sad.
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Why are you brits always so hard with yourself?
You are always so critical with your own people. After listenning British expats for years, I was surprised to notice how charming your country was.
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#2 illuminatusmagister
Can't agree with you entirely about Denmark.
Having spent many years going in and out of Esbjerg I have seen plenty of drunken scraps between Danes during turf out time from the dens of iniquity in that city.
I found Danes abroad were no better than the English, and I'm not English or Danish.
The drunken lager lout does not just belong to the English the Danes have their own version.
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Funny, when I say these things you Brits get so angry and defensive. On this thread I don't have to. I can just sit back and enjoy you telling the truth about each other for once. Makes for an amusing read. OK, keep up the good work. Jolly good show. Bloody Mary. Stiff upper lip. Cheeerio. Do you Brits still speak that way or is it just in the old movies? Did you ever really?
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MAII @ 15
You have actually stumbled upon the true nature of the English ("real British" nature as opposed to "passport British" nature).
The "real British" (indigenous and with deepfamily roots English, Scottish and Welsh) are self-depracating to the point of being nihilists for their own self-worth.
As a "real British" Englishman, I can amuse myself for hours decrying my own stupidity, laughing at my own misfortune or crying openly when watching an emotional film without fear of being laughed at by a fellow "real Brit" who also has a piece of grit in his eye too.
We, "real British" have a unique sense of humour that no-one else on the planet can understand and that humour is as much about our own stupidity and the stupidity we find in each other of our own kind. However, you will rarely find an Englishman taking the rise out of any other Nationality other than, in banter and jest, between the Welsh, English or Scottish - we are of the same ilk and we will always laugh at each other but deep-down it's because we are, in this day and age, much more tolerant of one anothers' ethnicity and actually get along very well despite the political comments we make about autonomy and self-rule.
And yes, I still say "Cheerio" and "Jolly Good show" occassionally. I cannot help it. It's part of my heritage and the way I was brought up as an Englishman.
Yes, we have our lager louts, yobs, vandals, football hooligans and the majority of the "real British" (English, Scottish and Welsh) are deeply ashamed of these stupid people's behaviour (both at home and abroad) but for every one of these miscreants and brain-dead people there are many, many more good, decent and honourable English, Scottish and Welsh people who still epitomise the "Brits" you refer to from those films that you have seen from the 1940s and 1950s. Most of us "real British" just cannot help it - it is bred into us without us even knowing how - but we can laugh at ourselves for being so quaint and probably past our "Sell-by-Date" in this modern age.
And, as a case in point, if anyone saw Mark's tie he was wearing for his media report for the Channel Tunnel Fire, you will know what I mean about the English having a sense of humour! However you might need to be "real British" to understand that I am not being personal - I am just taking the Michael.
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There a two sure fire ways to pick out the Brits here in southern France. First they are huge and pink (they are known as 'les roses') and second they speak their mother tongue (well or badly) to each other at the top of their voice, often even shouting across the street as if the local inhabitants either don't exist or don't care. They do.
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How many Englishmen does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
7.
1 to screw it in, 1 to study the economic effect, 1 to make sure the process adheres to the rules and regulations, 1 to protest against it as it contributes to global warning and 3 to report it for the BBC.
That's the English for you!
Boom, boom!
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I like English people for several reasons. The most important one is the fact they modestly think no one likes them.
Cliches on English like "heavy drinkers" or "hooligans" are totally unfair: all peoples in Northern and Eastern Europe drink more and less the same.
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Mendedemus, good post at 16, but explaining it doesen't help other nations to understand us any better.
Here in Australia, we're easy to spot - the ones working late, swearing less and driving well.
Overall, we can be too hard on ourselves, we suffer from a lot of the same image problems abroad that our smaller northern euro neighbours do too - namely that a large percentage of us travel abroad for our hols, so you other nations get to see us 'warts and all'. However we're very sensitive about this image problem.
I've met tons of like minded people from around the world who have nothing but nice things to say about us, and the fact that we can all get on shows there's no inherant reason that we shouldn't travel well.
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All this makes quite interesting reading but I cant help thinking that it is all a bit shallow.
How the English behave in a foreign country makes interesting reading, the lager louts in the Greek islands, the stag do in Amsterdam, the hen do in Copenhagen or Dublin, Brits living abroad that do exactly what Brits at home denounce about immigrants here, i.e. failing to integrate, etc.?
But I for one would like to go a bit deeper than that. In the context of the EU, there is a very interesting element that might help to *spot the English* better than any other. It is one element that I mention at every opportunity and will continue to do for as long as I can.
The UK is the only country out of 31 EU/EEA countries that has refused to join Schengen. All EU/EEA countries are quite happy to remove their borders between each other in the name of a) creating a *true* single market (i.e. one without internal borders) and b) giving some meaning to the name European *Union*. Yet one, only one, country has refused to do that: the UK.
As Illuminatusmagister at no. 2 says `What does this say about [the] Brits?`
Luckily there are at least two Brits that have formed an opinion about this question:
Control freaks http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/28b3322c-9700-11dc-b2da-0000779fd2ac.html
Foreigners be warned ? paranoia rules at the British border http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a395ccd4-9fb1-11dc-8031-0000779fd2ac.html
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jorgeg1 @ 21
i couldn't agree more.
i find it unbelievable that today you can literally go for a picnic on the borders that used to define the iron curtain without any passport or having to explain yourself to any officials, or drive across those borders at 70mph without stopping unless you happen to want to call in at one of the old border posts that has now been turned into a service station.
and yet i as a uk citizen now regularly spend over half an hour queuing at lhr to get through immigration. this the airport that everyone says is already operating at 150% of capacity and that breaks down if there is a bit of light fog. and it doesn't occur to anyone that life could be so much easier for the common traveller if they just scrapped these totally redundant border controls with europe.
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This is the first tim I've written on a BBC blog, but I felt I had to.
I'm a Brit who's lived in Madrid for 4 years now, and I'm always surprised when I hear English people complaining so much - about themselves!
Here, people do recognise the stereotypes of a Brit on the "costas" drinking lots, getting sunburnt, wearing sandals with socks, etc. However, they also recognise that in all countries there are many different types of people.
When all my friends have visited the UK they have always come back saying how wonderful the people were. They loved the sense of humour and thought the people to be very polite and welcoming.
So come on Brits, let's not beat ourselves up about what we're like. We have our bizarre ways, but the best thing about us is that we recognise them. Or at least the majority does!
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benagyerek ` it doesn't occur to anyone that life could be so much easier for the common traveller if they just scrapped these totally redundant border controls with europe.`
It does occur to people but, unfortunately, I would bet my house that the majority of the British (or perhaps English?) people, if asked, would vote to keep these totally redundant border controls with Europe, such is the anti-immigration paranoia prevailing in the country.
But perhaps they should spare a thought for the taxpayers money that would be saved if the UK joined Schengen. Looking at ONS travel data, if you add the figures for UK visits to EU27 countries (all of which are or will be part of Schengen, except the UK and Eire) and visits to the UK from EU27 countries you get the staggering figure of 73m or 71% out of the total ca. 103m arrivals to the UK (70m UK visitors abroad returning home plus 33m visitors to the UK arriving here).
Which simply means that by joining Schengen taxpayers would save the cost of ca. 71% of the total border police staff who at the moment are checking and scanning ca. 73m passports per year, 99.99% of which are either of British people or EEA nationals who have the right to come to the UK anyway. And that EU27 figure doesn?t even include Switzerland, who is officially joining Schengen later this year.
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REgarding the UK and Schengen.
You've got to be fair. It's not like taking part in Schengen will drain the North and Irish Seas allowing for the same type of borders like in continental Europe.
The UK would still be an island.
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#21 - JorgeG
#122 - benagyerek
I agree about Schengen. I now live in Hungary and, if returning to the UK, I can go via Austria, Germany and Belgium or Slovakia, Czechia, Germany and Holland. The only border where I have any formalities either way is the UK.
However, there is that stretch of water, the Channel, which makes it easier to police than long land borders and, given that over the years, the UK has been more susceptible to terrorist acts than other European countries, there is a certain logic to it. It is no coincidence that Ireland is also not part of the process.
I did fly back not long ago, used the blue channel at Gatwick and was not stopped or document checked once so it is not all gloom. I suspect the UK authorities have a pretty good idea who they want to stop most of the time and are very selective. If you are queuing to drive off a ferry, however, it is a pain.
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In general i think that the English are good,tolerant people,and very intelligent.
And I think that they do make an effort to understand other cultures and peoples even more then other European counterparts.
Like every other people the English have amongst them the poor and the not so well behaved ones.But in no way are they the image of England.
As for the border control they are there for a reason and I understand why the British would have their border control.Is been very difficult for Britain to deal with illegal immigration the last 10 years and unfortunately the French and others have not helped the British authorities that much on this issue.
But i don't agree that the English have a special sense of humor.
The worst thing is they hate paying the Bill.
You can also tell a British abroad because they know so much about local culture and history.And they do always find the right words for everything.
And they always get it right on their foreign policy (almost) unless the influence of Europe is to big on certain issues.
I wish Britain would run the E.U foreign policy.
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
BernardVC, o ppphhlease not again the ISLAND alibi! Are you from the government? As this is what they churn out time and again in defense of the indefensible, i.e. the UKs refusal to join Schengen as all other EU/EEA countries have done (except Ireland who was forced out by the UKs opt-out, as explicitly stated on the Amsterdam and Lisbon Treaty).
FYI Bernard, Schengen doesnt just apply to `continental Europe`. Malta and Iceland are in Schengen. Cyprus will be in Schengen in a few years and, as mentioned above, Ireland would want to join but the UKs opt out makes that impossible. Are these enough islands in (or would-be in) Schengen for you? Or because they are *lesser* islands they don?t count?
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It's interesting to read how you people see each other. Most of the definitions could produce also German.
Except, which I think is essential, "a unique sense of humour" (16 @Menedemus), and "acting as though they are still at home" (10 @andfreedom).
Not to mention clumsiness in striving to conquer the world, which better fits to some other nations.
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Firstly, our problem is not that you have to queue at passport control on entering the UK but that once anyone has got through passport control, there is means of ensuring visitors don't overstay and disappear as illegal overstay immigrants. Our Govt has no idea how many are living in the country, as was evident at the last General Election.
Secondly, we are the preferred destination for most illegal immigrants to the EU as (a) most speak some English and/or are willing to learn some English as this is the easiest European language to learn, (b) most foreigners can find ex pat community to settle with in England and (c) our immigration controls, once you gain entry, are very lax.
Readers may remember, for example, that the Brazilian tragically shot by the police at Stockwell station had overstayed his visa and was working illegally as an unqualified electrician. If we had effective immigration controls in place he wouldn't have even been in the country at the time he was shot.
I understand that the Netherlands require foreign EU nationals settling there to obtain a register and obtain a work/residents permit giving their address. This enables the authorities to know who is working in the country and where they live. It makes it far easier to ensure foreigners pay their taxes and makes it easier to ensure they don't abuse the welfare system in the Netherlands. Why don't we adopt such a system?
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I'd like to say something in defense of the British people......it's just that at the moment I can't think of anything :-)
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Well one thing is that they haven't alienated the people of The United States of America to the same degree as most other Europeans have...although some of them are hard at work at it. BBC for example.
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How exactly would open borders with Europe work . Ie if you get a ferry from France would the assumption be that because you are in France you have the right to be in the EU area?
This will just make a mockery of any attempt to quell the problem of Illigal imergration which is prevalant on the British Isle's
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Anyone who thinks that the border controls imposed on entry to the UK are over-zealous now should try googling 'e-borders', because there are much worse delays - and in my view - totally unacceptable controls yet to come on ferry and rail passengers, as well as at airports. The controls will probably be contrary to EU law (and certainly against the spirit of free movement which is a fundamental pillar of the EU).
These will involve exit controls (could someone please explain why the Government should control who LEAVES the country?), as well as much tighter checks on arrival - not just of non-Europeans but also of UK and other EU nationals - including for the first time the Irish. The irony is that 'star wars' technology, originally designed to defend us, will be used to control us instead.
It also means the end of the 'Common Travel Area' that currently allows us passport free travel to the Republic of Ireland, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, and (almost certainly) de facto passport controls to travel WITHIN the UK, on travel between Northern Ireland and Britain (parallels with the old East/West German border spring to mind).
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SuperJulianR
Perhaps the UK wants to protect its borders because its generous welfare benefits to illegal aliens has made it a magnet for them. One of the advantages the French had at Saint Gatt was that the aliens were just passing through and quickly became someone elses burden. Now that the EU has passed laws which will make it a crime punishable by imprisonment to be in the EU illegally (and has angered all of Latin America in the process) it can relax to a degree. But, there are still lots of places in the newer EU countries where illegals can gain entry easily. From there it's just a few train rides to Britain's free ride on the gravy train of life.
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You Brits are strange people.
Usually I love 90% of your culture and way of living but there is a remaining 10% which drives me incredibly mad.
You need to have everything stuck in a cathegory, it's either black or white, no shades of gray permitted.
Therefore you have a tendency towards believing (needing?) stereotypes; for you french are all arrogant, italians all mafiosi, german all organized nazis and british all hooligans!
But I love your sense of humour, at least when I manage to understand it!
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#31 - busby2
Much the same in Hungary. I have a residency card, an address card, a social security card (having opted into the health care system) and a tax ID. The authorities know exactly who I am and where I live. So long as I make a tax return and don't start a riot, they just let me get on with my life.
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I live in the south of France where i have had the chance to meet a bunch of british.
There're a lot of british around here, most have got a secondary house and have retired over here because of the climate, which is far better than in england, and they like the "french" way of life, are interested in the local culture, they make true efforts to speak french, are nice, pleasant and well they are very welcomed and for most of us, we don't mind speaking english when it's easier for them.
On the other hand, when you go out clubbin or in bars, you tend to meet youths british who often are drunk, who loudly speak so that everyone knows they're over there, who speak a not understandable english, and who often end up vomitting and fighting in the streets ... And indeed, it's not of a very 'grande classe' ...
So to sum up, the british can be very very pleasant people undoubtedly, but some really need to be re-educated.
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i wonder whether the new border controls between the uk and ireland will encourage the irish to join schengen now. anyone irish care to give an opinion?
i agree with busby2 @ 31 (assuming i understood him right) that the uk needs to do more to regulate immigrants that are already in the uk instead of trying fruitlessly to stop them coming here in the first place. i had a similar experience to his dutch example in germany (admittedly 10 years ago), where i was required to register my residence with the police and to go through the social security office before i could take up a job.
i find it depressing that a certain sector of uk society is so paranoid about immigration, as exemplified by the daily mail. certainly some immigrants, such as gypsy beggars on the london underground, are not welcome. but as far as i can see, they mostly are very hard working decent people. and the biggest irony is that most of them settle in london, which is the least anti-immigrant part of the uk.
it seems to me that the people who dislike these immigrants so much must be poorly educated people who live out in the styx (or maybe basildon) and have no interaction with any foreigners other than sometimes seeing groups of them loitering around in their town centre. it is basically racism that underpins the daily mail reader's worldview - i.e. the belief that these people are fundamentally different for no reason other than their nationality and therefore do not belong. when it comes to fellow europeans, i think this worldview could not be more wrong.
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Frenchattitude;
If the French really cared, they would pass laws and enforce them that would put drunks who break the law in jail. Ever hear of a bouncer? He's the guy that throws disruptive people in a bar or restaurant out when they annoy other customers. Ever hear of laws against public drunkeness? And repeat offenders should get progressively harsher sentences including fines or even be expelled permanently from the country as undesirables. If they damage property, they should be forced to pay for it and punitive fines as well. If you don't demand these actions of your local government, it means you and your neighbors really don't care and are getting exactly what you deserve. That or you don't have a democratic government at all. If they came to the US and did the same, they'd find our justice system much harsher.
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MarcusAurelius:
I'm sorry to not live in a country where my freedom has been so scratched in the name of my own security that it is no longer possible for me to skateboard in the street (i.e Washington, personnal experience). Abount a bouncer, i know who he is, and in some places, he has actually a lot of to do with sending off drunk, and violent youths, unfortunately they turned out to be often british.
I'm sorry, i'm not for settling more rules, fines or whatever that'd prevent me from doing actually what i want ... Because i do drink some times, i really like having a drink with friends and going out ... But when i drink, i'm sorry but i don't feel the need to have a fight or to be so drunk that i wouldn't even know what i'm doing ... This has been called basic sense, nothing more than logic ... You said we have got what we deserve? well then i'll keep on looking at those non-bred youths turning themselves into fools and being so glad of not being like them, i'll better off this way, trust me.
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busby2 and a few others talk like Daily Mail emissaries. Nothing wrong with that, that?s what freedom of expression is about.
What I find really annoying is that these people seem to have a habit of converting their prejudices into facts, e.g.:
`we are the preferred destination for most illegal immigrants to the EU`
How do you know that busby, have you read it on the Mail or on some other *reliable* source?
Why most Turkish immigrants (several million, legal or illegal) are in Germany instead of the UK?
Why are there so many Ecuadorians and other Latin Americans in Spain, far more than the relative few in the UK?
Why are there so many North Africans (Algerians, Moroccans?) and Western Africans (Senegalese, Ivoirians?) in France, and comparatively so little in the UK?
Why are there so many Albanians and Rumanians in Italy?
Why are there so many Surinamese and Indonesians in The Netherlands?
Answer: They all wanted to come to the UK but the UK gov. turned them back as their English was no good.
And why, finally, are there so many Indians, Pakistanis, Jamaicans, Trinidadians, Australians and New Zealanders in the UK?
Now busby, give us a break?!
But HM?s government doesn?t really know what is coming their way? Once Germany lifts their work restrictions to Eastern Europeans, which I believe is a couple of years away, many of the remaining Polish immigrants in the UK will make a move to work in German factories and getting paid in reliable euros, at which point, the much trumpeted points based system is going to look like a colossal own goal as there will just not be enough people in the EEA (unless Turkey joins the EU, something that could be decades away) wanting to come to work in the UK to do menial jobs for a pittance. The legions on LTIB will have to be forced back into work.
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Frenchattitude
As I recall, drunken British soccer hooligans started street riots, set cars on fire, and blinded a gendarme in one eye after a soccer match in Paris. And as I recall, they got off fairly lightly. In the US they would have spent considerable time in prison for assaulting an officer of the law, had to pay fines, paid for all of the damage they'd done, and then have been expelled from the country forever. If your government can't even protect public order from a handful of drunken foreigners, how do you expect it to protect you from the real threats to your life such as Islamic terrorists?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I was in southern Poland last week (Krakow and Wroclaw) and cringed at the behaviour of British "lager louts" in the old town city centres. They were very loud, boisterously aggressive and hopelessly drunk by mid afternoon, having flown over for a long weekend of solid drinking. What they were like in the evening I did not witness but several restaurant owners I visited (I write articles on wine and food) said that they had imposed a dress code which prevented the louts entering , ie tie shirt and jacket , trousers rather than teashirts and jeans which is the typical dress of the louts. The increase in cheap airticket prices is fortunately beginning to decrease the weekly boozers' invasion of Polish cities.
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message for frenchattitude:
i think there is a growing consensus on this blog to ignore ma2 when he starts behaving in an intentionally outrageous way and tries to take the debate completely off topic. what after all has islamic terrorism (one of marcus' favourite topics) got to do with the perception of brits abroad?
ma2 is capable of rational debate, as i have discovered from reading some of his postings on justin webb's blog. however, he seems to have an enormous chip on his shoulder when it comes to europeans, so i suggest you just avoid rattling his cage and hopefully he won't make so much noise.
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JorgeG1 @ #42
As a matter of interest, why is Schengen such a big deal for you?
The EU requires that other EU Citizens can enter the the UK and, to be honest, as a frequent traveller into the UK from other EU countries the delay to show my British/European Union Passport on arrival in the UK is hardly a time consuming burden.
I am not and never have been regularly stopped by customs check - except in 1972 (before the UK had joined the EEC) when I got stopped having been over to Luxembourg to meet some girls I had met on holiday some weeks before in Ibiza. Since then I have never been pulled for custom inspection on arrival in the UK. As it happens, I do not smuggle contraband but not through fear of being stopped by the UK Customs and Excise.
The blue EU channel is, I am sure monitored, but I guess the Customs and Excise Duty Officers apply some common sense in their role and since the UK joined the EEC I have never been stopped and do not feel as though I am under suspicion when I pass through the blue EU channel.
As the showing of a passport is the only difference between a Schengen Treaty country and the UK, I fail to see why you have such a problem with the UK not adopting Schengen.
Schengen is not a requirement of EU membership and it hardly seems to me to be that big a deal other than it means the UK can control it's own borders and monitor the movement of people into and from the UK.
I only ever see you criticise the UK for not adopting Schengen but have never seen you really explain why you, as an individual, find it so irritating (if that is the right word to describe your annoyance with the UK?) for the UK to wish to require people to show their passports on entering the UK by whatever means or leaving the UK by airplane.
Please enlighten me as to why it is such a big deal for you?
Of course, if you have given your reasons for personally being so cross with the UK before - please do point me in the direction of the thread - and I will be pleased to read and understand your rationale for being so cross.
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MarcusAurelius,
It's crazy, but you realize what you're saying? i mean, just think about it twice ... We started talking about youths, drinking in nightclubs, having fun loudly, and ending up throwing up in the streets or worse fighting.
OK, it's not charming, those guys may be not well-educated, they may not control themselves, they're probably from a working class and behaves like their parents ... BUT they're FAR from being terrorists.
I mean, it's crazy, we have moved from a bunch of drunkun youths to .... terrorists. Whaooo ... i'm disturbed here ... I mean, i don't deny the existance of terrorism or terrorists; i'm not saying that we're not concerned here in France or that it's not of our business ... But i'm gonna think my country is unable to protect people from terrorism whenever a kid steals sweets in a shop, you wanna what i mean? there're things that you need to separate.
Moreover, we already had to deal with terrorism in the 90's or hijacked planes, and we got a pretty good record from it if i remember well, i was young though.
The thing is, i expect my country to protect us from terrorism, and i think the job has been done and no, i don't expect the police to take measures against drunkun yobs in bars (Well except if they get violent or what else), i simply expect the people drinking in bars being educated enough to not disturb everyone .. simply.
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Having travelled around much of Europe and the Southern Hemisphere, I have to say it is very easy to spot a Brit abroad. They are normally the ones being propped up by the bar!
With regards to the Schengen agreement actually Ireland has also opted out with another 5 countries still to implement the agreement (though they are due to do this by December). I personally do not agree with everything connected with the EU, when it was initially started by the Treaty of Rome; it's intention was harmonious trade. This aspect I am in favour of, however, it has escalated to determining each Member States policies on workers, health and safety, foreign policy etc..will it end or are really becoming a super sate to rival USA?
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mikewarsaw @ #45
Frenchattitude @ #32
As an Englishman f not so tender years I am ashamed of the "lager Louts" that besmirch the name of all "real British" citizens - the majority of Britons truly are not well represented by this oafish minority even though they congregate where the beer is cheap and the travel is also cheap.
Personally, I blame it upon the liberal wishy-washy thinking in Educationalist circles of the 1960s that has led to the demise of the original 1944 Eductation Act Tripartite Schools System and the introduction of Comprehensive Education in its stead.
The result has been that the academically gifted have still achieved academically, the technically adept have become technocrats successively but the kids who were neither academic nor technically gifted have been badly let down by the Comprehensive Sytem. That system has tried to cover up its failings by now providing certificates of competency but has left two or more generations of some Comprehensive Education pupils (the first generation now adults with children of their own) who cannot read, write or add up simple sums and who are ill-equipped to do aught else but get drunk, misbehave and give the UK bad press when they venture abroad.
Culturally the "Lager Louts" are as different from the majority of Britons as chalk is from cheese but their behaviour should be deemed unlawful and they should simply be incarcerated to teach them the lessons they were never able to learn at school.
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Well it?s easy. Look for the guy that alternates between extreme self pity and ?so proud to be English? mood and that?s your man.
Otherwise I don?t think England or English are that different from the rest of the Europeans as they tend to believe.
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JorgeG1
When I say that the UK is the preferred choice for illegal immigrants coming to the EU, you cannot possibly prove otherwise!! The Govt has no idea how many immigrants (illegal or otherwise) there are in the country or where they come from, how long they stay or whether they settle.
But let us just consider the numbers from South America, for example, a sub continent we never colonised (except for British Honduras and British Guiana). The 2001 census showed only 76,000 but this is thought to be a huge under statement of the numbers. Recent estimates say the numbers of Brazilians alone number 200,000 with 60,000 in London alone. How many of these have come over as students, like Juan Charles de Menezes and overstayed? The answer is that nobody knows because this grossly negligent and incompetent Govt doesn't have a resident and work permit system for foreigners, as other EU member state sensibly have.
Is it all a myth that refugees wait in the Saint Gatt region or that there are large numbers of economic refugees on the fringes of the EU all trying to get into the UK? The stories of those coming here as economic refugees are all very similar: they know that once they arrive here they are home free and that the chances of being deported are remote. These were stories carried by the BBC.
This Govt stupidly opened the doors to eastern europeans long before the the rest of the EU. They came for the work and many for the benefits. Is it all a myth that Slovakian gypsies were encoraged to come here because of stories of generous social security benefits, a story carried by the BBC?
Just what precisely are the quantifiable economic costs and benefits of uncontrolled immigration from the EU and elsewhere?
A BBC documentary showed a Polish man coming here to join his sister in Peterborough who arrived 2 years earlier. She was a single mum who worked as a cleaner and she had been joined by her 2 school age children after being here one year. This entitled her to the council flat she was living in, an extermely generous benefit when you know the shortage of such accommodation for those born here. There is no way that she is a net contributer to the economy of our country as the cost of her council house, health care and education of her children far, far outstrips the value of her contribution.
Now there jobs that are difficult to fill like picking and packaging vegetables which immigrants fill but the Poles of Peterborough also took jobs that the British were prepared to do, like working as a warehouseman, cleaners and as van drivers. Where is the benefit in that?
With Britain moving into recession the last thing we want is more immigration! Unemployment is likely to rise and the reduction in the number of eastern europeans working here, which you predict, should therefore help to reduce the likely rise in unemployment here, which surely must be most welcome.
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Menedemus ¤47. Arrivals at UK airports, with the Blue gates are fairly straightforward, as you say. The queues at european airports for those flights to the UK are different altogether - at least for economy class or cheapie-flight passengers. I have regularly had to queue for 30 minutes or more.
But if you really want to feel the effects of the UK's refusal to join Schengen, then try ferry travel. It's the opposite of the above. Easy to leave an EU mainland port; but endless queues, opening of boots, and sometimes emptying stuff out when called in for a "customs" going-over. And I've never tried to smuggle drugs, people or esplosives into any country either.
Even travelling by train is so different between EU countries on mainland Europe: but what a pain to take Eurostar to the UK!
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Menedemus #47
I agree with JorgeG1's sentiments on Schengen. Failure to join makes UK and Irish nationals into second class Europeans. We get here queues at foreign airports and board planes from inconvenient departure gates beyond passport controls (all the best ones are reserved for Schengen destinations)
it is true that from the mid 1980s until recently controls have become much not much more than waving a UK/EU passport on entering and leaving the UK (and passport free travel to Ireland), particularly when arriving or leaving by car at ferry ports. In truth, there can be little objection to this, especially since it became possible to clear UK passport control in France on return to the UK.
However, with 'e-borders', this is now changing, and the so-called 'border police' will be requiring large amounts of personal data, possibly up to 24 hours in advance, in addition to electronic control of entry and exit.
What is not clear to me yet is whether vehicle passengers will be required to get out of their vehicles to go through this charade - something that did not even necessarily occur at the old communist Iron Curtain!
The problem with all of this is four-fold:
1. intrusion into privacy
2. travel arrangements are often not made 24 hours in advance - a traveller may simply want to turn up and board a train, ferry or the shuttle without booking in advance
3. the feeling that somehow the 'border police' have some discretion as to whether you can or cannot enter or leave. If you are any UK/EU national it is a fundamental right to enter and leave entirely as you please. Travel within the EU is no different to travel within the UK.
4. extra costs that will inevitable be borne by travellers
MarcusAurelias2 #35
I agree on the need for immigration control, but this is best done by strict enforcement of laws against employing those who have no right to work here (employers facing heavy fines and imprisonment will check employees properly), denying benefits, housing and healthcare (except emergency treatment) to those without a right to be here.
As it is millions of innocent travellers are inconvenienced in a vain attempt to keep illegals out. The illegals have a big hurdle to get here, but (once achieved) they know they are unlikely to be removed - so they will try anything to get through. e-borders will not stop people slipping in in the backs of trucks or in private boats after all.
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NikolayTzvetkov @ #52
You have me beaten there?
An Englishman is different and can be identified because he is either self-pitying or is being proud to be English . . . . which I can certainly agree with . . . . yet he is like every other European.
I am sorry but the UK is not signed up to Shengen and the Europeans cannot all be self-pitying and/or proud to be English!
The UK won't let them in without their UK/EU passports and self-pity just won't cut any ice with immigration control!
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Menedemus says,
?JorgeG1 @ #42, As a matter of interest, why is Schengen such a big deal for you??
Where exactly do I mention Schengen on #42? I was just trying to counter argue a classic piece of Little-England-style prejudice, e.g. ?all the immigrants in the world see the UK as their Mecca?
?Schengen is not a requirement of EU membership?
Little-England-style prejudice again. Schengen IS a requirement of EU membership as it is part of the EU legal framework. Another different matter is that the UK (the only EU country to have a problem with Schengen, in turn forcing Ireland out as well) has obtained an opt-out from Schengen, as part of its long lists of opt-outs from key EU pillars. Any country wishing to join the EU has to sign up to Schengen, as indeed was the case for the 2004 and 2007 EU entrants.
Schengen interests me, yes, but what interests me much more is speaking against the lies, propaganda, double standards, prejudice, xenophobia et al that frequently appears in blogs such as this (not applying to the blog owner himself, who I do greatly respect), and indeed, from mainstream political parties themselves, e.g. pompously declaring the EU a *full* EU member while opting out of Schengen, which is about implementing ?the spirit of free movement which is a fundamental pillar of the EU? as very correctly pointed out by SuperJulianR at #34.
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busby2 @ #53
Merely as a by-the-by and a passing comment. I have nor real wish to enter into a lengthy discussion but . . .
I can understand your concerns about the lack of controls for identifying the entry and leaving of immigrants/emigrants from the UK but (and I am no Labour Party stooge or supporter) they are the only party to introduce the idea of mandatory ID cards.
Both the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats object on principle to the idea of introducing ID Cards at all but, essentially, ID cards are no different to the identity mechanisms that threnodio has to have in Hungary mentioned in #37?
To quote: "I have a residency card, an address card, a social security card (having opted into the health care system) and a tax ID. The authorities know exactly who I am and where I live. So long as I make a tax return and don't start a riot, they just let me get on with my life."
If the UK introduces ID Cards then the only inhabitants with a need to hide will be wanted criminals, illegal overstayers and illegal immigrants - none of whom can possibly obtain an ID Card as the use of biometrics would be impossible to replicate.
I understand the need to prevent erosion of civil liberties but I do not understand why ID Cards - something we had in the UK up to the mid-1950s - is something that is such an anathema to the Conservative and Liberal Democrat Party politicians who are so dead set against the reintroduction of ID Cards in the UK?
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SuperJulianR @ #55
Thank you, that was a very helpful explanation.
I have no strong view about Schengen being adopted or not by the UK.
My personal view is that the UK cannot afford the NHS or the cost of all the social benefits that are an obvious attractor for inward migration - once the UK becomes more like the rest of the EU in how it manages healthcare and provision of welfare support, I suspect that the population numbers of the UK will drop quite dramatically.
Shengen may be convenient and easy to adopt but dropping the NHS might be impossible! That might be the root cause as to why successive UK Governments prefer to control the UK borders and not adopt Schengen.
I don't know if that is the case but it makes sense to me.
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59 - Menedemus
I will have to research this because there are wide variations on how benefits are calculated throughout Europe. Britain has a number of 'top up' benefits such as housing benefit which may distort the figures. But I am fairly confident in saying that the UK is not the most generous benefit payer in Europe by a long chalk. Certainly the Italians pay their pensioners much more and I believe both Spain and France are more generous across the board.
This would appear to suggest that the benefits system is not especially significant in the priorities of migrants.
I can tell you that my contributions to the Hungarian health care system are significantly lower than they were in the UK for a roughly equivalent level of service, not withstanding that I only entered it when in my late 50s.
I rather fancy that what make the benefit system in the UK attractive is not the rates but the compartive ease with which you can 'get one over' on the system.
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I guess the Brits used to be a reserved bunch. No more. They are like most of us when we are abroad. Let the goose loose and party.
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To Menedemus (59):
Excuse me, but what do you mean by saying that NHS or social benefits would lead to immigration to UK? Nordic countries have been in the Schengen area from the beginning and we haven't had any immigration problems even when having at least comparable or better health care and social security than you have in the UK.
Thought then again we do have a government mandated ID -system with ID -cards that are needed in order to access any public service and many private services: i.e. you can't open a bank account without a social security number and without bank account you can't be paid salary. Then again it should be remembered that immigrants come to work, what I have seen and heard here in Finland is that immigrants whether from eastern Europe, Asia or Africa are all very driven to work and earn money.
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threnodio @ #60
You may be right about social provisions and welfare payments not being the most attractive benfit for attracting inward migration.
I know that there was some cribbing here in the UK when the Polish arrived in force (and I mean no disrespect to the Polish - a harder working bunch of guys many with a pleasant facade and of no problem as far as I am concerned!) and they were registering with the local GPs as soon as they got their National Insurance Numbers - faster than a hen can lay eggs. They were also able to claim receipt for child welfare allowances that were paid direct for their children back in Poland - the UK Government did admit that they had no way of verifying if the children existed and had to take the word fo the Polish claimant as fact - somewhat indicative of your comment ...the comparative ease with which you can 'get one over' on the system.
I think the main issue for me is the NHS. I personally think that the UK Taxpayer can no longer afford to subsidise the NHS as a free-at-point-of service healthcare system.
I believe that free healthcare is one of the biggest attractors for immigrants and health-tourists.
It is a fact that the UK NHS Service is abused by health-tourists to the UK who receive treatment free of charge at-point-of-service because they are in the UK as visitors and this abuse is simply perpetrated because the cost of treatment would be unaffordable in their own countries. It is a huge problem as the financial figures from the NHS Trusts in the UK for unpaid healthcare bills submitted to non-UK citizens who simply vanish after they have received NHS healthcare services is growing and becoming a major problem.
The cost is in the order of millions of pounds sterling per annum which is many more millions of Euros.
I also believe that, if the British are to integrate more effectively with the Europeans, we should ditch the NHS and go for the most common form of funding healthcare provision in Europe - health insurance.
UK visitors and the indigenous population would all have to have healthcare insurance to receive healthcare and we would all be paying for our healthcare uniformly. What a break for the UK Taxpayer that would be!
Still, it's all a bit of a pipedream really. I cannot see any UK Government now (or in the future) being brave enough to admit the UK cannot afford the NHS and give it up nor adopting Schengen - if it is the abuse of the healthcare system that is a cause for the UK to not adopt Schengen.
Nevertheless, as pipedreams go, it is a nice idea - the British all becoming more like other Europeans and doing things more like Europeans . . . . hmmmmm! Is it possible?
I hope so!
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Menedemus at 59
?That might be the root cause as to why successive UK Governments prefer to control the UK borders and not adopt Schengen.?
You see? What did I tell you on my previous blog? One thing is as certain as death, the UK will never join Schengen while the government, the opposition and people like you continue to peddle the untruth that joining Schengen would result in `eliminating controls at UK borders`.
Let?s do a simple arithmetic exercise:
There are 192 member states of the United Nations
There are 30 countries in the EU / EEA plus Switzerland, 31.
Joining Schengen would entail removing border controls with all other 30 EU/EEA countries and Switzerland.
IT WOULD NOT ENTAIL REMOVING BORDER CONTROLS WITH THE REMAINING 161 WORLD COUNTRIES.
Now, can you (and all the mainstream parties) still say that joining Schengen would result in losing control of the UK borders?
There was a very interesting post above @36, ?You [Brits] need to have everything stuck in a category, it's either black or white, no shades of gray permitted.? Hear, hear, the British attitude to Schengen is a perfect example of this black or white `syndrome`, which I have always found so pervasive.
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As I am half scottish does that mean I am only half a fat, beer swilling ignorant yob. (on my english side of course) Or, Mark, are you using English as a lazy shorthand for British.
Like all stereo types what you say has the ring of truth, but also like all stereo types does not give the full picture and seldom helps to create understanding.
Have to say Mark this is a little below par for you
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I would love to join in the bashing of English tourists but unfortunately I'm Irish so thats not an option for me. Forget the Brits, when it comes to language ignorance and a total unwillingness to engage in the local culture on holiday, we're the real specialists.
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Jukka_Rohila @ #62
Please do not shoot me down in flames Jukka_Rohila. I am trying to help find a solution for the UK to adopt Schengen.
You wrote: "Excuse me, but what do you mean by saying that NHS or social benefits would lead to immigration to UK?"
I am not saying that the NHS and social welfare and social provision ARE the attractor. I am surmising that health tourism for the UK's NHS system MAY be a cause for inward migration and health tourism.
It is a fact that the UK NHS Service (which is absolutely free of charge at-point-of-service for UK Citizens) is abused by health-tourists to the UK who also do receive treatment free of cost at-point-of-service because they are in the UK as visitors and this abuse is simply perpetrated because the cost of treatment would be unaffordable in their own countries.
It is a huge problem as the financial figures from the 13 NHS Trusts in England alone for unpaid healthcare bills submitted to non-UK citizens who simply vanish after they have received NHS healthcare services is growing and becoming a major problem.
The cost is in the order of millions of pounds sterling which is many more millions of Euros which has to be funded and replenished by the UK Taxpayer.
My argument is not that the UK is wrong or right to not adopt Schengen but if the root cause of the succession of UK Government's reasons for wanting to control borders is to prevent health tourism . . . then a quick solution would be for the UK to ditch the NHS and adopt healthcare insurance as is common practice through out the EU.
"No insurance - no treatment" would reduce health tourism to a negligable problem and, IF health-tourism is one of the reasons why the UK does not adopt Schengen then its removal as a problem is one less reason for the UK Government not adopting Schengen.
Just running the concept of ditching the NHS within the UK is a tremendous idea that would put the government of the day into a right tiswaz and is likely to be mighty unpopular with the electorate but the cost of the UK NHS is now past a point of being a stupefying cost and a reason why UK Taxes - mainly through hidden taxation - is at an alltime high and past being a bearable burden for UK Tax Payers.
Ditching the NHS would benefit taxpayer - less tax = money free to pay for personalised healthcare insurance and make the UK more like other Europena Nations with their healthcare schemes.
The more the British assimilate European standards, costs, benefits and such like the easier it will be for the UK to join with the other European Nations in "ever closer union". Your beloved Schengen could even be acceptable to the UK as it is one less obstacle for the UK government to use as an excuse for not adopting Schengen.
It is just a thought and no more.
Please try to be a little less aggressive towards me - I am trying to be helpful!
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We don't see these British lager louts in bars in the US. If they tried it, there's a good chance they wouldn't make it to the front door with all their teeth. If they do it in the streets, they'd be spending at least one night as guests of the local police, maybe more prior to their deportation once a magistrate saw their arrogance and lack of contrition.
It seems there are some people here who apologize for them and think they should just be tolerated. There are others who whine but would do nothing. That's the kind of attitude that put up with Hitler at Munich. Some people can be shoved to the wall and even through it. And then there are those who simply won't turn the other cheek even once. Those are the kind of people who built America. If you are a lager lout don't come round my way, pick a softer target. Maybe Belgium or Portugal.
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JorgeG1 @ #64
You seem very antagonistic towards me as if I am challenging you about Schengen?
You wrote: "You see? What did I tell you on my previous blog? One thing is as certain as death, the UK will never join Schengen while the government, the opposition and people like you continue to peddle the untruth that joining Schengen would result in `eliminating controls at UK borders`."
I repeat what I said to SuperJulian at #59, I have no view as to whether the UK should or should not join Schengen.
I certainly do not, personally, peddle the untruth that joining Schengen would result in `eliminating controls at UK borders` as I have no idea if they would or would not do so and, as far as I am aware, I have never suggested that joining Schengen would result in `eliminating controls at UK borders`."
I am aware that the UK specifically (as of today!) now has the highest density of population rate of people per sq km within the EU (at 395 people per sq km of the UK) which is now higher than the Nederlands who used to hold the highest population per sq km record. That indicates to me that inward migration is rising higher than the speed with which the indigenous population can evacuate to France, Spain or the Commonwealth Countries of Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
You do not have to castigate me for being anti-Schengen as I do not know if joining it would benefit the UK or not. SuperJulian's comments helped me see some potential benefits of Schengen but I remin unpersuaded one way or another.
However, as the UK is drowning in people and we are going down the pan faster than snow slides of the roof of a hot sauna I'm not sure if we can let any more people into the UK - it is getting somewhat overcrowded as it is!
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Just a thought #58 Menedemus, as regards Identity cards the left were violently opposed to that until relatively recently, maybe the change now has more to do with the level of control that they've introduced and they simply want to ensure nobody can ever be free again, apart from their beloved special cases and hobby horses. After all once you've subdued a population the next trick is to totally ensnare it.
As for Schengen, well it's better to stop talking about mythical open borders until such time as everything else that goes with it is introduced. At this moment there is more reduction of open borders in terms of cross border taxation, acceptance of qualifications, bureaucracy, pensions, social benefits etc etc than ever before. For tourism it works, but for people wanting to work or live, forget it, the deck and dice are loaded against you at every step.
As for the NHS, I tend to agree with Menedemus, the UK free to all system is being abused as bills are rarely chased up, the system in Belgium with insurance based system is that tourists, visitors etc need to prove their coverage, if not then they have to rely on the basic emergency care. When going anywhere here the SIS and/or EU insurance cards are indispensable as that's the first thing any health care provider wants to see.
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#68,
Hello MAII, once again you've come up with the usual rhetoric, it seems you in America are very much like the French I guess, plenty of noise (about France/USA and its endless stream of mythical achievements), a lot of wind and nothing much else. I am sure there are just as many idiots in your American pipe dream paradise and that just as over here in the EU the louts get shown the door very quickly. In various holidays across the EU I've seen tourists from many countries getting paralytic, the problem often has more to do with the fact that continental beer is a lot stronger than UK beer. In Belgium there are several common beers in the 10 to 12 degree sphere and nobody can drink much of that without getting totalled, even the basic pils (lager) is 5.2 degrees and the specials start at 6 degrees.
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To Menedemus (67):
Sorry, I didn't mean to be aggressive. Maybe my writing style can sometimes seem to be seen as aggressive. The preferred way in Finnish discussion be it formal or not is to keep it short and be as direct as possible... Things that I usually don't even achieve... Anyway, cultural differences, I try to learn :)
I still wonder about your point about health insurances. Like you said other European countries have health insurances, but at least in Finland, the health insurance is more like a tax. Every resident, a citizen or not, is insured by the Finnish Social Insurance (KELA) that includes health insurance. The health insurance and social security are funded by working citizens: you pay a small part of your salary to social security and your employer pays a part too based on your salary. Now if you go to a clinic or hospital nobody asks if you have a insurance or not as I said everybody has it.
Now there are few differences between our health care systems. If I have understood it correctly, you never pay anything in NHS? In Finland you pay a menial amount, in example community clinic fee for a one year maybe 20 euros or 10 euros per turn and you can select do you want to pay the yearly fee or per turn fee. If you attend another communities clinic or hospital without an referral from your own community health care, you will be billed by the other community but you can direct the bill to your own community's social security department. You also can go to a private clinic, but that is not covered fully by the social security.
I think what you are after is control and accounting on who is using the services. We have the national ID system that is mandatory and every resident has a social security number that they must present with formal identification when checking to clinic or a hospital. If somebody checks into a health care facility with out Finnish social security number, their identification information would be checked and afterwards a bill would be sent to the persons home country or country of residence.
I do also agree that health tourism maybe and probably is a considerable problem. British taxpayers nor taxpayers in other countries should not have to pay for the treatments of non residents. I don't know what the solution to this is except added controls and checks. If you would introduce health insurances in UK, it would more or less be just another method of trying to identify people. Easier method would be to introduce mandatory ID system to everybody, but of course there are many that resists this.
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Menedemus
You advocate no health care without health insurance ... This would be just like the US . Do you seriously want a health care system that determines if you get treated by the questions asked about your insurance whilst the blood drips . View several episodes of ER on channel4 - an American series that makes the same point.
British humour at its best MA2!
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From a Russian point of view English smile less than Americans.
(We don't smile at all, only when you absolutely have to, no other way out, so all smiling ones in Russia are foreigners, and only 2 categories speak English, of which one category smiles less - that's how we tell the British.)
Then it's of course clothes. Can't explain. Shorter sleeves? Tighter coats? Kind of undersized with the British, and over-sized with Americans.
More bleak colours or tricky colour combinations with the British. Americans wear more bright things or in one deep colour. Approximately.
When something happens, like a party, British ladies go for hats.
American ladies go for champaign colour stockings.
Americans speak louder in the Hermitage museum and look more happy.
Both British and Americans walk around with maps in hands, none of which ever has correct names of the subway printed and get lost. They stand in all subways in picturesque groups and study their wrong maps.
Of course it's easy to find the British in St.Petersburg and in Moscow in the Irish pubs. Rosy O'Grady's or Moose' head or whatever. That's where they hide and relax from Russia after work.
In the pubs the British stand and don't look tired of standing (whereas not one Russian will stand by own will if there is a chair to sit on).
The English like to giggle a little bit.
Like to say "Cheers!" without drinking anything, simply somehow on the go?
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i doubt that many illegals coming to the uk will have given a moment's thought to the nhs before deciding to come over (although i can imagine it may contribute to some of them choosing to stay on once they arrive).
more likely they
(a) genuinely came here as students (esp language students), saw the opportunity to stay on and earn some money, and let their visas expire
(b) already knew people here who could help them get a black market job; or
(c) picked the uk because of historic colonial links to their homeland.
in any case, most illegals come here because of push factors in their home countries (e.g. the explosion in the number of somalis in the uk over the last decade due to the civil war in their homeland), and the choice of which country to settle in is a purely secondary question for them. i don't think anyone (except maybe some gypsies) chooses to give up their homeland and everything they know, risks life and limb and incurs the considerable financial expense of being able to get to here in the first place, just to be able to sponge off the apparently world-famous uk benefits system.
i personally have no problem with foreigners coming and taking british jobs (busby2 @ 53). in my previous career, 99% of my colleagues were foreigners. i am especially happy to welcome immigrants who work in sectors that the brits are lousy at. long live the polish plumber. and i don't think the uk gets disproportionately more immigrants than e.g. france, but would be happy if we did.
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jukka @ 72
"health tourism" as i understand it is something quite different to what menedemus is talking about. it is the perfectly legal practice of travelling to another eu country to access its health system, then using your eu healthcard to bill your own country's health service for it.
i might point out that one of the biggest beneficiaries of this practice is the brits, who are lumbered with such shoddy health service and long waiting lists back home. for example, increasing numbers of brits are going to hungary to have dental work done (as indeed austrians and germans have been doing for many years now). no doubt the daily mail crowd will scream about how this is undermining britain's domestic dentristry sector. bloody meddling foreigners.
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Jukka_Rohila @ #72
Anyone can turn up at an Emergency Section of an NHS Hospital, they will receive emergency treatment there and then without any more than the hospital administrator needing your name and current address. This does not get verified.
If treatment of longer-term nature is required then the patient will be admitted to hospital.
Patients do eventually get asked for their National Insurance Number which is allocated to all persons over the age of 16 in the UK and who are eligible to work within the UK economy (or over 16 and their dependents).
If someone is not the holder of a National Insurance Number they will receive a bill at the end of their treatment to be paid in due course - unfortunately there is no means to enforce this debt and the person can disappear or if they are a visitor (and that is the reason they do not have a National Insurance Number) they can simply leave the UK - cured or at least in some better health than when they arrived.
An example of the burden this imposes on the taxpayer was the issues surrounding a Ghanaian Woman who came to the UK legitimately but overstayed her permission to remain in the UK. During her overstay she (allegedly) developed cancer and was in receipt of NHS care in a Welsh Hospital - Cancer Radiation Treatment and the suppression drugs are very expensive but she had no means to pay the mounting bills.
Eventually, she was removed from the UK and returned to Ghana despite still being a patient in the UK.
This caused a furore as her supporters in the UK suggested that she could only receive the necessary treatment for her Cancer in the UK. The Ghanaian Ambassador to the UK stated categorically that she could get the necessary treatment in at least two hospitals in Ghana.
A legal challenge determined that she was illegal and she was removed to Ghana but her supporters still ctriticised the UK Government for expatriating her back to Ghana.
The hospital bills from the NHS were never paid. Strangely enough, the woman's UK supporters raised sufficient charitable funds to pay for her treatment in Ghana.
I wish the woman well and hope she recovers but this is typical of the malaise that the British have to deal with - we cannot force people to pay up front or guarantee payments if they are not entitled to free healthcare and the NHS is entirely free of charge except for the cost of prescribed medicines for which about only 30% of people have to pay as there are medical exemptions and exemptions based on age (young or old) and exemption for nursing mothers, pregnant women, etceteras.
I think you are right, the UK needs to become less easy for people to (as threnodio commented earlier)'get one over' on the system. and to do that the uK needs more controls and the scrutiny of people's identity and eligibility for free healthcare for example ould need scrutiny. I believe that that requirement means ID Cards to which there is, currently, great opposition in the freedom-loving United Kingdom.
Alternatively, the UK adopts a more robust healthcare provision based upon means to pay - if you have private health care insurance (which could be government subsidised for the less fortunate or people in need of social support) then you get the treatment as payment is guaranteed by the insurance - this would mean the end of the NHS as it exists at present but as it would become a privatised healthcare system that was funded on a needs of the citizens and not on the needs of anybody who turns up at the door of the hospital.
To some this is a complete anathema as the NHS is such a sacred cow for the United Kingdom but the reality is that the UK pays more and more taxpayers money into that organisation and it has become a beast that just swallows more and more tax year-on-year and the UK Taxpayers are paying not only Income Tax but pretty much the highest proportion of taxes on goods and services within the EU of any EU Citizens.
It is a Catch-22 Situation as the British (English, Scottish and Welsh) are genuinely of charitable disposition and we contribute millions of our own pounds sterling in charity donations to the less fortunate people all over the world but we do hate being taxed to the hilt by our government to pay for expensive government-run innefficient institutions and, although the British love their NHS, they truly do know it has become too expensive to continue as is. it is simply that no-one has the courage to admit that as yet publicly.
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jabber_jabber @ #73.
It's only a suggestion.
I am not an enemy of the NHS, I just think it it too expensive to continue operating indefinitley on the assumption that it can be funded indefinitely
The fact is that the healthcare insurance provision works in other EU countries and the UK healthcare provision insurance does not have to be a healthcare insurance based upon the US model.
If it works in other parts of the EU then why should it not work in the UK?
It is easy to become attached to the NHS - I use it myself as it is now. But, the NHS does get ever more expensive to run and it swallows so much of the UK Taxed Income that sooner or later it will go bankrupt as you can only tax the British by so much and then they wil revolt.
I suggest it is far better to discuss the issues now than scramble for solutions when the NHS breaksdown for lack of resource and the UK is faced with the dilemma of needing to find an urgent solution because the NHS has ground to a halt.
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#63 - Menedemus
My understanding was that the The European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) was supposed to cover all eventualities while traveling and there is no real reason why the NHS should lose out at all. If your stay is longer than 6 months, you are then supposed to opt into the system of the country of domicile. Doubtless there are some who do not do this but it is actually very easy and there is no excuse for not doing so. There is also a general rule that, if a condition is life threatening, it will be treated regardless and questions of cost asked later. It has always been my understanding that, for non-emergencies, the treating country was entitled to recover the cost from the country of origin but that may have changed since the demise of the E111.
It is, however, worth remembering that there are other forms of medical tourism. When my late wife was in a famous transplant unit some years back, there were a number of overseas patients who were quite happy to pay for the specialised treatment available and that it was quite lucrative for the trust in question.
This mobility works both way with large numbers of western Europeans coming to the east for a range of treatments including dentistry, ophthalmics and cosmetic surgery for reasons of cost. In recent years, medical students in Hungary have been required to demonstrate competence in either English or German in order to qualify. I have come across doctors who subcontract to UK NHS trusts on a part time basis as well as partnering in Hungarian practices. Mobility is certainly not confined to patients.
This having been said, you are of course right. This degree of mobility makes a nonsense of nationally based schemes and it should be standardised at least across the EU. The problem is that the costs of provision vary widely. I would favour a card based scheme which was simply proof that you had either paid contributions in a qualifying country or were privately insured. As an advocate of transplantation, I would also allow this to double as a donor card so that an opportunity would not be lost were you unfortunate enough to die while overseas. Increasingly, this is becoming less important as European countries begin to embrace the concept of presumed donor status with people opting out rather than in.
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threnodio @ 79
Yes, I agree with your comment absolutely and I have my EHIC as would any sensible EU member state European but to get one you need to be registered with your home national Healthcare Service - in my case the EHIC is linked directly to my National Insurance Number.
The EHIC is great idea and it is the way forward for EU Nationals and it will move us all towards a Europe-wide health service model - however that may develop.
I am not anti-legal-immigration as so many UK citizens appear to be - the reality is that the indigenous UK population is growing old and they need to hold onto their dream of a comfortable pension in old age - the only way that is funded in the UK is by having fresh blood arrive and work and pay taxes to fund that dream. The UKIP and BNP political parties eschew repatriation and stopping immigration but the reality is that immigration to the UK is a necessity and not a plague as they would have us all believe.
On the other hand a free ride and state support without committing to the UK Taxation System is a blight and must be eradicated as it is simply cheating the taxpayers of the UK.
Once here - if legal then migrants get all the comforts of the resident population (for which I have no problem because - if registerered, legal and regardless of being a new migrant or not - if you pay your tax, you are entitled to the perks of citizenship).
However, if they are not legal migrants they get given healthcare as a courtesy whilst the UK struggles to repatriate them - we also get the visitors, such as the woman in mentioned in comment #77 who's illness developed into a long-term care issue. This is the common cause of the NHS loss through unrecovered non-NHS patient expenditure - it is a growing and totally unacceptable abuse of the NHS free-at point-service principle which in 1946/47 was intended solely for UK citizens and to be paid for by them contributing National Insurance payment throughout their working lives - a form of healthcare insurance . . . . no more adnd no less.
It is the non-EU travelers and illegal migrants who develop illnesses in the UK or even arrive with illnesses deliberately to take advantage of the NHS system who cause the NHS to become a charity organisation and an irritant to those who pay for their NHS Care through their taxes.
Thus, I see the loss of taxation income and reducing State spending on what some people might see as lifetime essentials (such as Pensions in one's old age) are linked and the big government spend upon the NHS is the biggest resource drain and where savings could be made by demolishing this sacred cow and replacing it with a healthcare model fit for the 21st Century.
Hence, I raise the spectre of adopting a more European approach to equitable healthcare funding and support. Not a popular UK Citizens choice I grant you but reality is dawning I suspect for many sensible people who realise you cannot fund a 1946/1947s concept forever more - especially when the UK population is growing at an uncontrolled rate and the UK has now, as of today, become the most densely populated country in the EU and this trend in population growth is becoming unsustainable.
As a rider, I am not suggesting restricting emergency healthcare - if someone is in need of immediate aid and medical support - life is all important and immediate health support is essential reagrdles of nationality, race, creed or whther they pay tax or not - emergency healthcare is a universal right that all nations should support and fund.
I am suggesting that it is the long-term healthcare services provision that needs to be paid for by individuals rather than by the government where possible. As taxpayers get to pay less tax they can then afford healthcare insurance as means to support their needs sometime in the future.
Tax Payers (whether indigenous or legal migrants paying their taxes and national insurance contributions) should not have to support social benefits cheats, NHS fraud or immoral health tourism.
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hey mark, time for a new thread..
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There is no health tourism in Britain.
To register with the NHS one needs to show a valid passport with a valid visa.
So that excludes illegal immigrants,asylum seekers and visa over stayers.
This is just a media story.
Also the social benefits are not easily accessible for immigrants,nor are they welcome.
Only a very small % of eastern Europeans claim benefits in Britain.That number is irrelevant.
Most of the people who claim benefits in Britain are British themselves.
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I find that whenever one writes the word government in the BBC it goes through very good filtering process.
hmm.
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Menedemus, I do not ?castigate you for being anti-Schengen?, sorry not my intention. I was just trying to clarify matters.
People, politicians and the media usually (or rather on the very rare occasions they talk about it) mix Schengen with Daily Mail style issues of illegal immigration, benefit spongers, health tourism and *losing control* of UK borders. In reality, Schengen has little to do with any of these issues or rather, they are totally separate issues.
In the real world, it seems that a majority of people in this country will always be incapable of separate Schengen with any of those emotional issues.
Which brings me back to my original point about Schengen in relation to the main theme of *spot the English*:
While 30 EU/EEA countries (including Switzerland) are quite happy to join Schengen, all three major UK parties (and that doesn?t even include the BNP and UKIP) are opposed to joining. To me that speaks much more about the English/British than your average lager lout abroad, even if, perhaps, both things are symptoms of the same cultural core? but that would be getting too much into a slippery philosophical territory?
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Named-Erion @82
I am sorry but you are wrong in regards to health tourism by foreign visitors from outside of the EU.
Registering with a GP or Family Doctor Surgery requires production of a National Insurance Number and I accept that only legitimate persons can register with a doctor's surgery - however hospital long-term or more complex treatment is something else and is provided first (even just accepting, as you say on simply producing a passport and valid visa) and questions asked later when the bill does not get paid to the NHS Trust Accounts.
This is reported as an accoutancy fact by the NHS Trusts throughout the UK and the recovery rate of unpaid dept for treatment of foreign nationals is standing at only 5% of the debt being recovered from non-EU foreign nationals patients. I presume that this 5% who do pay represents the genuinely honest patients that threnodio refers to from his personal experience of people seeking best treatment available and paying for it in his comment at #79 (second paragraph).
The amout of unpaid debt for NHS treatment of non-EU foreign nationals is a staggering amount.
This payment default information is available via any of the NHS Trust websites - if you care to look - rather than simply being a naysayer and stating it is a problem that does not exist.
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Be a ghurka and fight for Queen and Country and you will forever be a foreigner. Don body covering and be a terrorist in your own country, seek sanctuary in the UK and you will be awarded benefits for your family and yourself.
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On this site I read:
"At the time, EU External Relations Commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner said the 27-nation bloc wanted to promote change in Cuba."
Well whoopee!
I bet they have in mind moves to a functioning democracy! I bet she claims to represent the people in the "EU".
She does not represent the people in the "EU". She represents an arrogant, anti-democratic clique that have grabbed power.
We do not have a functioning democracy in the UK or in the "EU". We were promised a referendum. I demand that we get that referendum.
President Castro should remind her of the staggering hypocrisy of the "EU" if she starts to lecture him on democracy.
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How to spot the Brits abroad? They're the ones trying desparately trying to avoid all the other "awful Brits" by "skillfully" blending in with the "natives". ;-)
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Phoenixarisen @ #86
I think the Ghurka issue is a solveable problem and my bet is that the judgement will be one of fairness and equity for Ghurkas.
I think that the old Ghurkas deserve our thanks and a small pension in Nepal might be great value but of little value if they win the right to stay in the UK - they may therefore choose to return to Nepal anyway - but at least they will have the right to live in the UK as a reward for their services to the British Army.
On the other hand, terrorists living amongst us is probably an unsolveable problem.
The Americans in Afgahnistan have that problem too when they are bombing Taleban warriors one minute and the next minute the blown up bodies are those of innocent civilians.
We could perhaps do more in the UK to stymie meetings and speeches that threaten public disorder or are tantamount to subversion but the British cherish freedom of speech so that is a slippery slope for us to go down.
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Two things.
First, #6 (busby2) asserts that only in the UK do drivers stop at pedestrian crossings. Absolute tosh! Stand at any crossing in Germany, and drivers stop - much more readily than they so here in UK. Similar in France. Moreover, people don't press the button at pedestrian crossings then walk out on red - that happens all the time here.
Schengen - It's beyond me why the UK won't sign up. It's attitude has xenophobia written right through it. Why should I, a European citizen have to be interrogated by the UK immigration staff when I leave the UK (at Eurotunnel) asking where I'm going. I am inclined to answer "Schengen" One immigration office with whom I remonstrated at Coquelles a couple of years ago freely admitted that were there a motorway between UK and France their attitude towards cross border traffic would be untennable.
What I do know, is that travelling in Europe is an unhinderred joy, once you have left the UK, and I for one can't wait for the opportunity to live and work in "Europe" rather than the UK.
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Once, when arriving at Schiphol Amsterdam Airport from Malta, before us in the passport control queue were a couple of young men: short-shaved fair, football shirts, loud and boisterous. In other words, Brits.
I made a comment to my wife along the lines of "three guesses where they are from" - which was overheard by the gentleman standing next to us, who remarked on those young men.
And what a gentleman he was: elderly, polite, distinguished and very, very British. I felt a bit embarrassed about what I said, and it goes to show that you can't judge a book by its cover.
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how to spot a brit? see post 87
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Yes it could only be in England, ...
O it could also be in Scotand, Wales and Ireland (both sides of the borders)
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#89 - Menedemus
The Ghurka issue is very easily solved. Give them exactly the same rights and privileges enjoyed by all other ex-professional service personnel. In the interests of justice, I would also submit the Defence Minister to utter and abject public humiliation for even contemplating doing otherwise. Totally and utterly disgraceful behavior - especially from a government which has suddenly discovered some virtue in loyalty.
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51.Menedemus
"Personally, I blame it upon the liberal wishy-washy thinking in Educationalist circles of the 1960s that has led to the demise of the original Eductation Act Tripartite Schools System and the introduction of Comprehensive Education in its stead."
I'm in full agreement with Menedemus on this (even though s/he unfairly attacked me elsewhere as a "bigot" because I refuse to view the US through rose-tinted specs).
On asylum seekers, let's just say that things would be a lot better if the Dublin Convention of 1997 had been correctly implemented
"Article 7. The responsibility for examining an application for asylum shall be incumbent upon the Member State responsible for controlling the entry of the alien into the territory of the Member States"
http://ec.europa.eu/infonet/library/a/97c25401/en.htm
Unfortunately the French tended to just stand back and point out the way to England and the British authorities refused to send 'em back across the Channel. I'm told (on good authority which I which I am not prepared to compromise) that the UK chose to consider France as not being a "safe haven" to which illegals could be returned for assessment, opting instead to allow them entry to the UK.
If we hadn't spent so much time bragging about our NHS and social services being the "envy of the world" then just maybe fewer numbers would consider the UK to be their preferred destination.
Borders have been around for millenia but passports for all are a recent innovation. Can anyone supply figures for how many terrorists have been picked up by border controls and how many by intelligence-led internal policing? I know which way I think the numbers balance! Full Schengen but backed up with ID cards please.
With our iatrogenic infection rates from MRSA and C difficile anyone who choosing to be a health tourist to the UK is potty!
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87. SuffolkBoy2:
"At the time, EU External Relations Commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner said the 27-nation bloc wanted to promote change in Cuba."
...
She does not represent the people in the "EU". She represents an arrogant, anti-democratic clique that have grabbed power."
Well, at least the EU is unlikely to bomb them back to the Stone Age for their own good.
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Got to love the English
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[What a shame discussion has been rather hijacked by the to-schengen-or-not-to-schengen debate.]
As a Brit abroad, and one in a 'budget' holiday destination (in terms of country, at least) at that, I do get embarrassed by the behaviour of some of my compatriots. But Brits being boozers is nothing new -- Gin Lane anyone? The same was true back in my hometown of Croydon; the high street on a Friday or Saturday night could rival any Hogarthian scene. But that is not the be all and end all of English identity, any more that immigration is the sole aspect of our place in (and integration with Europe).
The England of Sarf London exists alongside myriad other identities. Just as MM could only be in England watching a cute-but-drunk curry eater, so I could only be there on a 'open house' tour of local artists in Dorset (where their art itself often celebrated England itself, be it geologically, naturally, etc.). To stop at saying we are a nation of boozers is to underestimate our cultural wealth, to put it mildly!
Any conversation about national stereotypes is best kept light hearted. As I'm sure you are all aware, all generalisations are flawed, after all.
I'm no wet liberal and I wouldn't want a discussion like this to descend into handwringing about being over judgemental, but please: can't we celebrate the differences a little. And perhaps look beyond bacchanalian city centre 15-20-somethings? The average age in the UK is now 39, after all. Shouldn't we grow up a little in our assessment, too?
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92 + 93
The lack of Democracy in the Uk and the EU is no laughing matter it shames everyone whether the declare themself English, British or European.
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You can spot the English by there hatred of government forms where under nationality the is a box for British Scottish Welsh or Irish. But if you consider yourself english you have to write it under OTHER!
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@88
That's me :)
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MarcusAureliusII #68:
I am sure that we are all fascinated to read again about the strength and supremacy that you believe the USA and all its citizens possess over the poor, misguided Europeans. Currently languishing in a British prison serving a life sentence for murder is an ex US marine (you know the sort of guy John Wayne is always portraying saving the world) who shot dead an unarmed British police officer in cold blood (yes, unlike the good ol' US, the UK is still civilised enough to have unarmed police officers). Would he be the sort of American hero that you were referring to? Sort of puts drinking a bit too much as a national characteristic into the shade don't you think?
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I find it ironic that the traits that that the average liberal finds so abhorrent in the English, is basically the product of their own ideology that they've been force-feeding the nation with for the last 50 years.
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86 My posting on Ghurkas
89 Menedemus
"On the other hand, terrorists living amongst us is probably an unsolveable problem. "
I'm happy you agree that the Ghurkas are getting a raw deal, but your comments above concerning terrorists seems rather weak. We have the ability to remove from this land foreign terrorists who abuse our hospitality. A lot of nonsense is spouted about "human rights" and a terrorist was allowed to stay here rather than return to Jordan, as he would have been in danger of execution. Jordan is one of the few really civilised countries in the Middle East, yet we care more about the "rights" of an evil man than the rights of a country to bring to trial one of their own citizens. The same applies in the case of the infamous Abu Hamza, who with his large family continues to leech off the benefits heaped upon him in the UK.
94 Threnodio
You and I are on the same wave length, sharing respect and gratitude to brave men, with only scorn for officials who treat them so cravenly. Let's pray that justice will succeed.
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> 100.
> At 2:40pm on 17 Sep 2008, WhiteEnglishProud wrote:
> You can spot the English by there hatred of
> government forms where under nationality
> the is a box for British Scottish Welsh or
> Irish. But if you consider yourself english
> you have to write it under OTHER!
... cries the old chap with the white supremacist username.
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Let's face it. We've sold out our heritage for a pottage of political correctness.
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Mark Mardell:
Great blog update...
I honestly don't know that answer to the question.
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Noonday100 #103
Well you know one way to spot the English. As the song says, only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the noon day sun. Well at least that's how Rudyard Kipling wrote it. But Noel Coward changed it to midday sun.
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There is alot of snobbery in these comments especially from the Francophiles who think they are naturalised. The French are laughing into their pastis at you.
Try speaking to a Frenchman of say Algerian roots and he will say, 'Oh you are British, the British are very kind' meaning their fellow countrymen are not.
And yes I speak French (and Italian) better than most of you. The way to get to know a Frenchman is to buy him a drink (because they drink an awful lot more than us) and not practice you gut wrenchingly painful Franglish,
The Brits abroad I cant stand are the ones who forget who they are
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MalcolmW2 #102
Do you remember this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/october/31/newsid_2463000/2463863.stm
1997: British au pair guilty of murder
A Boston jury has found Louise Woodward, 19, guilty of second degree murder for killing the baby in her care.
Woodward, who was an au pair with the family of eight-month-old Matthew Eappen, now faces being jailed for life with no parole for at least 15 years.
The jury reached its decision after more than 26 hours of deliberation and several requests to the judge for clarification of evidence.
Woodward, who broke down in tears as the verdict was delivered, has always denied killing the boy.
The prosecution argued that on 4 February, she battered and shook baby Matthew to death in a rage of frustration because she was unhappy with her job and the baby had been crying.
After the verdict the court was immediately adjourned until tomorrow when sentencing will be passed.
Prosecution lawyer Martha Coakley said: "We had common sense and we had truth on our side."
She also added that the Eappen family were "relieved it was over and had just wanted to know what happened to their child".
We had common sense and we had truth on our side
Prosecution lawyer Martha Coakley
The parents of Woodward were present when the verdict was delivered, but did not react.
The case has caused much interest on both sides of the Atlantic with locals in her home village of Elton, Cheshire vowing to continue campaigning for her release.
Her defence team say they will appeal for "as long as we live and breathe".
On 4 February 1997 Woodward called an ambulance to the Eappen family home after Matthew stopped breathing. He was taken to Boston Children's Hospital and put on a life support machine.
He died six days later after suffering a massive brain haemorrhage.
Louise Woodward later had her conviction reduced to manslaughter and was freed from jail as she had already served the time that the judge recommended - 279 days.
It emerged that the jury was initially split, but those favouring an acquittal were persuaded to accept a conviction. None of the jury "thought she tried to murder him," one member said.
On her return to the UK she enrolled at South Bank University to study law.
Her parents were charged with stealing from a trust fund in her name but later cleared when a judge said there was no case to answer.
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105. whys it a supremist username?
If it was blackenglishproud you waouldn't have said anything what does that say about you!
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Who are we talking about here the English or British - there seems to be some confusion here - I've just seen Mark Easton's blog where the same issue exists on population. I come to one conclusion the Beeb is dominated by white (other than the news readers) male, middle class, English from the South East of England journalists with a left of centre bias and the rest of the country is ignored. Oh yes and they also love all things to do with Europe, despite the fact that this country has been consistently shafted over the years by these surrender monkeys/subsidy junkies. These are the same people we joined leaving our commonwealth allies (who fought in wars for us) out in the cold Why don't we go the whole hog and just call it the EBC with England and Europe intechangeable. And anyway who on earth would want to live in Europe with them. I agree with Churchill we will always choose the open sea instead.
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Phoenixarisen @ #104
Please do not misunderstand me.
I hate the idea of any convicted in absentia terrorist being allowed to stay in the UK or for that matter any terrorist who is conspiring to commit a terrorist act being in the UK or in any other country for that matter.
But we have to put a little bit of context on this.
Supposing a group of terrorists conspires to kill a number of travellers on the UK's London Underground but are caught BEFORE they detonate any bombs - on conviction, the likely sentence would be around about 20 years each.
Supposing the same group actually succeeds in detonating their bombs (as in the case of the 21/7/2005 LU Bombers) but, due to their own ineptidtude, the bombs fail to explode properly but nonetheless they are caught - on conviction, the sentence is 40 years each (due to there being more charges with custodial sentence imposed to run consecutively)
Now suppose I go out armed with a swan-off shot gun in a gang of four, hold up a Security Express Moneybox, shoot one or two of the guards dead, steal (lets say 2 million pound sterling), drive off, am chased and caught - what is my sentence on conviction likely to be? Yep, pretty much the same as a Terrorist who tries to blow up people and succeeds without killing themself, definitely the same as a terrorist who succeeds in blowing up the devices but not the victims.
As an armed robber, if I conspire to do the robbery but I am caught going across the pavement - my sentence is likely to be 20 years - the same as a would be terrorist conspiring to blow up people but caught before they succeed.
What this says to me is that in the the grand scheme of things a Robber with a deadly weapon commits a crime that is no less grave than a Terrorist with a bomb or vice versa.
Now, in the UK we have a set of rules that most people believe are there to protect us all from our government and the State in the form of the Police or another citizen laying false or malicious charges.
One of the rules is that any man (or woman) charged with an alleged crime is innocent until proven guilty. Presumed Innocent is exactly that - It is a MUST and not a maybe presumption that they did not do the crime until it is proven beyond all reasonable doubt that they did commit the crime.
The UK Law does not support trials in absentia - even if the prisoner declines or cannot to come to court, video link will be provided so the prisoner has the right to watch his own trial and see the evidence in chief being given against him/her.
If convicted then appropriate sentence is prescribed and it is open to a Court to also impose repatriation if the offender is a non-UK citizen.
Thus, when you balance the rights of citizens to presumption of innocence against the rights of terrorists to be removed, detained without trial, repatriated to face charges for which they have been convicted in absentia or any other form of proscription for terrorists, most UK citizens will support the universal application of the presumption of innocence - we give the same rights to Armed Robbers who are likely to face the same kind of sentence - should we treat terrorists when they are caught any differently. I say no!
The USA took proscriptive Detention as a solution and even the most Right-wing US Government is trying desperately to whittle down the number of detainees held at Guatanamo Bay but is going to be left with a hardcore of 200+ terrorists that they can neither charge nor release. That puts the US in between a rock and hard place.
My bet is that the USA will eventually release every Guatanamo Bay prisoner and even have to release some of them into the USA as, although they were (mostly?) captured in Afghanistan, no other country will take them. Tough choice for the next US President eh?
That is why I suggest that Terrorists being able to reside freely in the UK is more of an unsolveable problem when compared to the ease with which the former Ghurka soldiers's request for residency rights can be resolved. Somewhat less of a tough choice really!
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111.
I got removed for less! Depends on which Moderators are on duty.
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113 Menedemus
Thanks for your long reply.
I understand, but still disagree. There is too much soul-searching and consideration wasted on those criminals who commit evil crimes.
Terrorists from abroad should serve their sentences and be deported. No benefits for their dependents. The more who are removed from these shores teh better, and if in their own countries they are executed, good riddance to rubbish.
The brave Gurkas should not even be considered in the same context as these terrorists.
This is neither humane nor merciful, but where they?
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In my post at #113, I wrote: "...is going to be left with a hardcore of 200+ terrorists that they can neither charge nor release."
I should have written "enemy combatants" and not "terrorists".....mea culpa
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Excuse spelling and grammatical mistakes, as written in a hurry. e.g. where (should be were) last line. Sorry.
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116 Menedemus
A rose is a rose by any other name .....
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114
I not sure whether you meant what i put or post 105. Why is now frowned upon to be proud of what you are? I'm no rascist never have been never will be.
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blogbag @ 112
actually the beeb is dominated by women
the english don't have a nationality. they have an island (or the most fertile bit of it anyway). if your family lives on the island long enough, it becomes english. if it lives overseas long enough it ceases to be english. this is what is unique in europe about english national identity. we define ourselves more by having a stake in our island society than by blood or language.
the reason the english use "english" and "british" interchangeably is not so much because of some latent imperialist mentality, but more because outside the world cup we don't feel a very strong attachment to the label "english". the scots and welsh fit into our territorial sense of nationality because they live on the same island with us. and as they clearly don't consider themselves "english", we use "british" instead.
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Phoenixarisen @ #115
The problem for the UK is that our terrorists are eithe born in the UK or are naturaised with an absolute right to stay in the UK.
This would for example include the 7/7/05 and 21/7/05 bombers all of hom are either born British or naturised British.
This simply adds to the complexity of the UK's problem for resolving the issue of repatriating terrorists.
Your other example of Abu Hamza al-Masri is a problem for the UK, in that he was convicted in absentia of terrorism in Jordan and the UK does not recognise in absentia trials as proof of guilt - to return him to Jordan is to return him to immediate incarceration.
By the same token, Abu Hamza al-Masri is a bigot who stirred racial and religious hatred and was duly subject to the full weight of the law. That was always too slow to be delivered for fear of alienating his fellow UK moslems and followers. Finally he was convicted and sentenced to 7 years imprisonment but not before time!
The law must be equable, applicable to all and blindly delivered without thought of race, creed or colour. The bringing to Justice for Abu Hamza al-Masri was delayed by political considerations and that was wrong.
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Didn't i read somewhere that the EU has sugested (no doubt farceably without cionsulting any of it European citizens) That Britain change its laws to Include in absentia trials thus removing the basic right to face your accusers and defend yourself at a trial?
Whilst i doubt this would affect the law abiding mahjority it does seem to be another step towards totalitarianism. Step by step were getting there slowly :(
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wep @ 122
sounds like carp to me. eu doesn't have the power to change the uk's criminal justice system.
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#121 - Menedemus
I do not know of any legal obstacle to Jordan formally applying for Abu Hamza al-Masri's extradition. There is a pragmatic reason which is that the US Justice Department also wants him. I understood that the plan was to immediately rearrest him when he has done time in the UK and send him straight to the States.
There is a convention in the UK that the courts do not extradite prisoners who face the death penalty. There is a mechanism in place whereby prisoners extradited to the USA on capital charges will not be sentenced to death. This may be one reason for the chosen course of action.
Repatriation would not be helpful since he is of Egyptian origin and he is not, as far as I know, wanted in Egypt although they might look favourably on the idea of sending him to Jordan.
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benagyerek
try this!
www.news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_polotics/7596633.stm
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#3 Frenchderek
Supporting the French sports teams doesn't make you a good sport. It makes you a wannabe. It's trying too hard. It's replete with a sense of superiority that makes you more British, not less.
Oh, and #106 Phoenixarisen
"When you have nothing to say, simply use the words POLITICALCORRECTNESS!!! and it will look as if you have said something."
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threnodio @ #124
You may be right but I thought that Jordan had sought Abu Hamza el-Masri's extradition but it was refused by legal process in the UK.
I must admit the guy was always so dire I hardly ever paid any attention to his plight.
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WhiteEnglishProud @ 125
This link toEU In Absentia Plan defended may be a better link.
In simple terms trial in absentia within the EU is supported by the UK government.
As this UK government has slowly introduced more and more stupid UK legislation for "Jobsworth's delight" and whittled away our freedoms with the increase in detention without trial to now 42 days it comes as no great surprise to me that the current Labour government would support such a measure.
No doubt what this means for UK citizens is that they can commit a crime in the UK and decamp to another EU Country, be tried in absentia in the UK and then extradited back to the UK with more confidence of the repatriating nation.
Justice? Oh, that goes out the window . . .
There were very good reasons why in absentia trials were not acceptable in the UK until 2001 and, even now, in absentia is only currently used for prisoners who are too ill, too dangerous or choose not to attend court (video link opportunity is provided to ensure that they can, if they want, hear and see the case via the video link).
This proposal would take in absentia trials to a new level of Court Proceedings not being fair or (more importantly) not being seen to be fair which is tenet of the UK Justice System.
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wep @ 125
your link doesn't work. can you copy-paste the article?
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#127 - Menedemus
I think you are right that he cannot be sent back for execution of sentence arising from a case held in absentia but could do to face a retrial or new charges.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
119
Of course you are not a racist, neither am I. The problem is that some of the moderators look for racists "under the bed", they have been so indoctrinated with political correctness, they have lost all sense of humour. You can be proud of being anything today except "a white middle-class man."
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menedemus @ 128
thx for the clarification. this makes more sense. this would only happen with uk's consent or uk's opt-out. it cannot be forced on us by brussels like wep suggests. and it only applies to trials taking place in other eu countries (i.e. not in jordan or the usa). having a decent and just legal system is a prerequisite for eu membership.
i agree that the concept of in absentia trials is worrying. a defendent should always have a right to defend him/herself before justice is passed. the article however does not explain exactly how this proposal will work, so i would not rush to censure the eu.
personally, i agree with the intention behind this proposal that a criminal should not be able to simply abscond to the costa del sol and then enjoy all the benefits of eu citizenship while relying on the vagueries of international extradition treaties to avoid justice. i would support (a) speeding up extradition procedures between eu countries, and/or (b) giving defendents the option of remaining abroad, but participating in the trial via telelink. if a defendent is given the option but refuses to defend himself by telelink, then i don't mind if he is tried in absentia.
i wonder if what i described above is indeed exactly what the eu is proposing? if so, do wep and menedemus still think it is unreasonable?
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This is almost too funny.
This is British humour at its best . . .
British Officials state that Basra could become tourist jump-off spot and a haven for bird-watchers
I must start saving my money for this holiday of a lifetime opportunity.
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To #120 benagyerek,
Sorry but one of the few achievements of New Labour has been the reawakening of the sense of being English. Your words had more credibility in the past but no so now, I like many I know do not consider ourselves British, we are English. In my case I am now both Belgian and English and explain very clearly to people that les Anglais are English and not British, Scottish, Welsh or Irish.
In #123 you mentioned "wep @ 122, sounds like carp to me. eu doesn't have the power to change the uk's criminal justice system.".
I think you may be wrong there as all member states laws are now subservient to EU law, should the unelected commission introduce a new directive regarding in absentia trials or anything else and it is approved then the UK has to adopt that law or face being in the EU courts itself. The only question mark is whether or when the EU finally takes over all national laws, leaving members states only with the ability to pass local by-laws.
As far as this Blog goes, I am surprised that nobody has put the obvious, the English are the ones queueing as we seem to be the only population who respects waiting our turn, albeit that trait seems to be disappearing in the UK these days.
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133 - benagyerek
You are right except for one detail. There is nothing to stop someone who is innocent returning to the country where the charge is laid and clearing their name once and for all providing they are confident of a fair trial. Logically, you would expect those unwilling to face justice either to be in all likelihood guilty or concerned about the possibility of a fair trial. In the former case, there are Europe wide extradition arrangements and in the latter asylum. This begs the question of why we need trial in absentia at all.
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#134 - Menedemus
ROTFLMAO!
My connections tell me Basra is an absolute blast!
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benagyerek @ #133
What this new proposal implies is that if a crime occurs and a suspect decamps to Spain a Court case in absentia is held and guilt decided in absentia.
An Arrest Warrant is issued and because the suspect has been found guilty can be extradited immediately from Spain.
He can appeal his formal conviction by the court hearing the evidence in absetia and a retrial or appeal is open to him.
My concern is that under the exisiting process, if the prime facie evidence is not adduced properly the suspect can remain a suspect in the eyes of the UK but he remains unconvicted and would be set free by the examining Spanish Judge.
Under the new scheme the suspect is convicted before extradition and has to be returned regardless of whether the UK court was right to convict.
We have all (probably) heard of miscarrriages of UK Justice and thus, in this scenario, the suspect would be extradited even though the court was wrong either in law or or in practice of the law.
To my mind one miscarriage of justice would bring this new process into deep ack as the supect could languish in a UK prison for years where the Spanish Judge may have found something wrong with the extradition evidence in the first place!
Personally, I don't think this proposal will get through a UK Parliament as the tenet of "justice needing to be seen to be done" is put at risk with these proposals but, there again, I am only one of the Plebians and not one of the Parliamentarian Optimates.
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My posting about Nick Robinson has been referred to the moderator. It broke the rule of comitting the cardinal sin of being embarassing...to BBC. What's the matter Nick, can't take a joke? and it was only what you put on your own web site too. Will this one also get ...."referred to the moderator"
"This comment is awaiting moderation."
Guess what, it isn't going to get any more moderate than it already is :-)
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126. CartmanEazyE wrote:
Thanks, can see they have got to you. Hope the indoctrination wasn't too painful.
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#135 - Buzet23
". . . all member states laws are now subservient to EU law . . ."
Not true.
1. Federal Constitutional Court (German) has the power to declare European Law unlawful and set aside judgments of the European Court. There is technically no reason why other countries cannot legislate for similar powers.
2. Material changes to the law require individual government's ratification. While it is the case that this is the usual practice because such changes are negotiated in advance, there is no reason why it should be binding.
3. The doctrine of selective enforcement is alive and well. The fact that something is illegal under European law does not matter if national governments choose, as they are perfectly entitled to do, not to enforce it.
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Buzet23 @ #135
You are absolutely right. Over the year the EU has, through the various Treaties been given legal power to enact legislation which can directly affect all member states and their inhabitants.
The European Union has legislated in areas such as extradition, family law, asylum law and criminal justice.
National courts are required to enforce the treaties that their member states have ratified, and thus the laws enacted under them, even if doing so requires them to ignore conflicting national law, and (within limits) even constitutional provisions.
For the UK there is one saving grace: Ireland and the UK have opted out from the change from unanimous decisions to qualified majority voting in the sector of Police and Judicial Co-operation in Criminal Matters.
This may allow the UK to not adopt trialsin absentia as applies to the extradition process but that would be for the UK Parliament to consider this as a get-out clause if it chose not to adopt the proposed EU Legislation regarding fast-track extradition using in absentia trials as proof of guilt to accelerate extradition.
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At least Lehman Bros were not flying at 35,000 feet!
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Long time ago I thought that the English are all dashing sea pirates. Expected to see the spirit.
And they all proved to be lawyers and financiers.
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threnodio @ #141
One of us must be wrong and we must both be confusing Buzet23?
My third paragraph at #142 is the definitive UK interpretation of UK Laws being subservient to EU Laws where the EU is empowered by treaty to implement a Law.
The applicable Treaty is a bit like an Enabling Act and makes the EU Law the superior law which the member state must implement "even if doing so requires them to ignore conflicting national law, and (within limits) even constitutional provisions."
Perhaps we should get WebAliceinwonderland trained up as a Financier and Lawyer and she/he can contribute to the confusion. ;o)
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Mark in the spirit of your cutting edge blog, getting to the truth of Europe as displayed your views of the English, can I suggest a similar high brow report on other nationalities.
We could have 'How to spot the French', - garlic eating surrender monkeys who sponge off the rest of Europe.
I do not hold such views and quite quite rightly you would never dream of such stupid stereo typing. Perhaps you should give a little more consideration to what you write.
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threnodio @ #143
Even today when the Alitalia is under the threat of crashing out of existence, one of the 9 Italian Trades Unions who control the Alitalia workforce called a one-day strike . . . this despite that the rescue package being proposed required the 9 Trade Unions to agree to changes in work practices by a deadline today.
The deadline passed and the Trade Unions could not agree to the rescuing Consortium's demands.
20,000 people are going to be out of work with little or no compensation as their employer is going to the wall. And the Trade Unions could not help themselves - they had to load the suicide revolver and give it to the consortium - the hypocrites.
So much for Trade Unions looking after the Workers!
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#145 - Menedemus
I know this sounds perverse and I can understand how confusing it must be but I don't think either one of us is wrong.
I notice that you use the word 'implement' and I have no arguement with your interpretation. I was careful to say 'enforcement'. A very simple example might be possession of small amounts of cannabis for personal use under UK law. It remains illegal but in practice it is rarely enforced under Home Office guidelines. The is case law. This is from memory but, some years back there was a case when (I think) Caerphilly Trading Standards brought an action against a manufacturer of Caerphilly cheese for using wooden shelves. Apparently, under eurolaw, you must use a non-porous surface. The problem is that you cannot make it on a non-porous surface. The judge found for the defendants on the basis that it was illegal but it was not fair and reasonable under common law to enforce it.
I believe the same applies to the German Federal Constitutional Court which may rule that if European law mitigates against the constitutional rights of a citizen, it cannot be enforced. That would not of course mean that it was not implemented.
This could become a big issue soon in my part of the world if the eurocrats try to make the smoking laws Europe wide. I would rather ceremonially disembowel myself than go through what the people would have in mind if they tried it here.
Re your 147, it is indeed tragic for the workforce. However, I have always been faintly edgy about going up in a plane with hair under the wings :-)
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there is a difference between the eu's ability to enact law, and a national government's ability to overturn or amend eu law once enacted. in all eu countries, national courts give primacy to existing eu law (provided it does not conflict with national consitutional law as in the case of germany). however, the eu does not have the ability to enact new law in the field of criminal justice that is binding on the uk unless the uk government consents. we have a veto. according to menedemus, other countries gave up their veto already (didn't know this, thought this was changing under lisbon only), but uk retained the opt out. my point still stands.
if eu countries are given the ability to automatically extradite their own nationals from other eu countries (without prime facie evidence), i agree that trials in absentia are totally unnecessary.
i still say english identity is primarily to do with having a stake in our society. that is why australians and canadians are not considered english, whereas second generation asian or black immigrants (where they are fully integrated and not being brought up in a midlands ghetto speaking urdu as their first language) are considered english.
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#149 - benagyerek
". . . whereas second generation asian or black immigrants (where they are fully integrated and not being brought up in a midlands ghetto speaking urdu as their first language) are considered english".
They are considered British because that is exactly what they are. I am not at all sure that they would be considered - or even wish to be considered - English.
Being Britishness is a legal status, Englishness a state of mind.
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benagyerek @ #149
Way back at #16 I wrote about "Real British" and "Passport British".
To me "Real British" are the Britons (Scottish, English and Welsh) who can (or could if they wish) trace their family roots in Great Britain back to at least the Industrial Revolution years which equates to about 1790 to 1820 AD.
This was the time of the Napoleonic Wars and the battles of Trafalgar and Waterloo and this conflict ended post-1815 when discharged soldiers and seamen flooded the labour market and the birth of manufacturing in Great Britain began to take the place of agriculture as the main source of the wealth creation of the nation.
From about the 1950s, Great Britain started to allow mass immigration as the World War of the previous decade had led to reduced manpower and the nation needed people to run the buses and work for the beneift of all. Great Britain advertised for mass immigration from the Caribbean Islands in particular and West Indians came to great Britain in droves.
These West Indians have had children and their children have had children but the offspring are British by birth not English.
Their family roots are West Indian and their allegiance and sympathies may be towards the British Islands that make up the United Kingdom but they would probably support the West Indian cricket team in preference to the English cricket team.
In more recent times, from about the 1980s onwards we had the Ugandan Asians arrive en masse into the United Kingdom and mass immigration from Pakistan and the Indian sub-Continent. These immigrants have had children born and bred in the United Kingdom and they are British Citizens but they are not English. They are of split allegiance and they are as likely to support the Indian or Pakistan cricket teams as support the English cricket team.
All these British Passport holders are eligible for all the benefits that the United Kingdom provides and I accept that they are British passport holders but they are only Passport British" and they do not understand the culture, humour or history of being English any more than I understand the history of Pakistan, India or the West Indies and the mentalities of their citizens who now reside in this country.
British was a term I used to use to describe myself as I live in the British Isles but these days (for the very same reasons that the Scots, Welsh and Irish have always been proud of their roots and define themselves as Scottish, Irish or Welsh first and British second) I too, like many, many other English have now chosen to say, whenever I get the opportunity, I am English first and British by passport only!
I do not apologise for this change of allegiance. I think it is entirely the fault of the various UK Governments who, over the years have allowed the fabric of the British Nation to become too multicultural for it too survive much longer as it stands now.
This, perhaps, explains why there is such a huge emigration occuring of white, Anglo-Saxon English leaving the country to live anywhere other than the United Kingdom.
My loyalties are to my fellow English and not to the United Kingdom and the "Passport British" who have no regard for me and some of whom hate me for being "Real British" - enough to even want to kill me because of my roots and heritage.
Sad but true.
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#151 - Menedemus
"All these British Passport holders are eligible for all the benefits that the United Kingdom provides and I accept that they are British passport holders but they are only Passport British"
They do, however, make National Insurance contributions so there is no lack of entitlement.
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threnodio @ #152
Perhaps I was not clear. I am not decrying the right of any Britsh Citizen from any British rights - either through being a British Passport holder or through paying taxes and National Insurance. They can receive what they are entitled to without any rancour from me.
My intention was, sadly, to explain why I no longer feel that I am British and why I now prefer to consider myself English first and foremost.
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#153 - Menedemus
I could not agree more.
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Enchanting discussion, pity cannot contribute in any meaningful way, by intercepting occasional shouts only, like "Please, go on."
( Thanks Menedemus for the idea to train me as a Financier and Lawyer, officer and gentleman and all, to add confusion to your aforementioned eu laws over British laws divided by case law, multiplied by the common law... plus constitutional rights.)
PPS I am sure I hope I am not "he"!
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Ab "passport British" and "real British".
I was once in your London subway with an English friend, Baron's Court smth, and there were a lot of dark faces in the wagon (an unusual view for a Russian), so I don't remember how the talk began but this English lady, friend of mine, said "Oh, he is British." About one dark-looking man we spoke about.
I said, like, No! Kate! this big black negra! he can't be. And she said But Alice he is! I assure you.
Then I questioned and she explained me very very well. She said he was born in the UK, his parents maybe also were born in the UK, so this is his home, and his parents home, and they don't know any other home. He speaks only English, he knows only English culture, he knows nil ab Africa or whenever, why should he be considered African if he has nil connection to it?
The man can't belong "nowhere", all ought to have a motherland, and this so happens that this England is his very motherland, and he has no other.
So why should he be suspended in the air? He needs something to stand upon. This is his culture and he is British allright.
Maybe even "English" was what she said,
I don't remember now.
First disagreed with her, you know, you come to England to see England and see what it seems to you Africa, but then I remembered the great Russian poet Pushkin and got totally relaxed and agreed with my friend. Our Russian Pushkin, I mean, what is more Russian, and still places like Sudan or whatever still compete for being his motherland. Tsar Peter I bought Pushkin's grandfather at a slave market in Africa, and broought by ship to St. Petersburg.
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Good story Alice. So by this logic, people born in the Ukrane are Ukranians not Russians and should learn to speak the Ukranian language, wave the Ukranian flag, root for Ukranian football teams, and not be traitors by trying to turn part of Ukraine into Russia. So what should be done with traitors? I think they should be shot.
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132
It was meant to be more ironic than anything else.
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WebAliceinwonderland @ #156,
Exactly so. Your friend is not likely to have said Engish but is most likely to have said your man on the Underground was "British".
Born, bred and raised in the UK of two generations of immigrant roots should make you feel British and some of the children and grandchildren of this British population component of the UK join the British Army and they would die for this, their country of birth, if the worst came to the worst.
However, it does not mean that they feel English as they would really not know or feel the way I do about my heritage as an Englishman.
Unfortunately it does not stop there.
There are British people who enjoy the rights, privileges and freedoms of Britain endowed by their birth in this country but their allegiance is such that they will not only want to kill me here in the United Kingdom but they will go to places in the world such as Pakistan, be trained as a Mujahadeen and cross the border into Afghanistan and try to kill soldiers of the British Army - young men and women born in the same country and as British as them and who may even have gone to the same schools as them.
Their rationale is that they are Moslem first and foremost and being British is, perhaps, only something they care about when they are just about to be killed by a soldier from the British Army and feel it may save their life.
It is all very sad and probably a great worry for their parents and grandparents who are British, possibly feel British and sense some form of allegiance to being British but are not English, Welsh or Scottish by heritage.
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I love it how the Americans are all for 'self determination' until it doesn't go there way.
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threnodio and Menedemus,
Nice to hear that there are others like me on this web blog who are not politically correct and feel angry that it is no longer PC to consider ourselves English, especially when it is a Scot from Nationalistic Scotland that is saying that. This is something I often say to Wallons over here and they can understand the situation well because of the current impasse between Wallonia and Flandre. It may not be long before I and many others will say it's not Belgian but Wallon, even though I'm an naturalised passport Belgian (Wallon) as my family tree can be traced back totally in England between 200 and even 500 years in some lines.
As for the comment on the EU laws and their Acceptance, Enforcement, Veto rights, QMV, Ratification etc, I think we are all pretty much on the ball here in that any National law can in fact be superseded if the politicians merely roll over on their backs and allow it. If German Federal Law considers itself superior to EU law then that merely shows once more that Germany is not European, and that the lip service paid by most countries to EU law is exactly what many of us believe, a farce with us as the fall guys. I consider the presence of the veto's as being a last gasp chance to avoid being totally swallowed up in the undemocratic EU and the drive towards QMV as being a retrograde step, rather than allowing the EU to be more manageable as is claimed, it simply enforces the current undemocratic process by being biased towards Germany and France as a poster here once ably explained. Once more I harp back to the fact that the open borders are actually open only to tourists, to the rest of us they're a quagmire of nationalism and the vested interests of EU/National/Local politicians.
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Menedemus #159,
Quite so, this is a great problem across the EU as there are now many millions who have been indoctrinated by the religious control freaks. It is very worrying that so many people can ignore their countries, borders, origin, civil responsibilities etc in their blind allegiance to the god(s)/prophets of religions which are propagated by the vested interest of priests/mullahs etc whose only desire is to return the people to total subservience i.e. dictatorship.
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@151
So there is mass immigration into England of people who are not British - and there is an apparent emigration of the British to other countries.
Good morning, this is called "globalisation" ! and long before this word was coined, the British set sail around the world, trying to conquer all that they could lay their hands upon. Sad, but true, they questioned (rhetorically) why the rest of the world existed. Consequently, and without further ado, the British should accept "reverse colonization" - yes, the people with satellite dishes conquering every corner shop, immigrant doctors taking over every scalpel, curry house cooks taking over fish-n-chips stalls, engineers taking over computer keyboards, business tycoons taking over steel mills and scotch brands, and slowly but surely the politicians taking over the house of commons.
Reacting to the blog itself ...
How to spot the English ? Look for their incredulous sense of humor, and for their unfailing ability to self-criticize! Guys, relax imperfections are not the sole property of the English ! And then there is the unmistakable accent and choice phrases ! [was seeing "Thomas and his friends" on DVD and had a hard time explaining to my 4 year old (non-native English speaking child) what "cinders and ashes" means !!]
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threnodio / menedemus / buzet - sorry but you are all talking out of your back sides. ian wright for example is english. not british. english.
i agree that there is a problem particularly in the pakistani community of 2nd or 3rd generations still growing up feeling they are part of an immigrant community that is not connected with the mainstream of their adopted country.
however, the vast majority of 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants (about which you don't normally hear much because they don't go around planting bombs on the underground) feel as english as you or i. for you to deny them the right to identify themselves as english is just wrong.
menedemus talks like some stuffy 60 year-old who has not appreciated the passing of the years. in my generation in london i know plenty of people who are as english as i am irrespective of where their parents or grandparents came from. fyi i am from "real" english stock in menedemus' lexicon and am in my 30s, if it matters to this discussion.
buzet @ 161
again you show your ignorance. it is not german federal law that trumps eu law, just german constitutional law. unlike the uk, germany has a codified constitution and countries with codified constitutions tend to take them very seriously, meaning that any ordinary law (including international treaties) cannot simply override it. i believe ireland also has a codified constitution, which is why they introduced a requirement for a referendum on international treaties that would amend it (happy to be corrected on this). however, once the german constitutional court has confirmed the compliance of an eu law, then that is it. the german government has no more wriggle room than the british government does.
our constitution has grown organically out of ordinary law - simple acts of parliament - which means that a uk government enjoying a simple majority at westminster can impose any law if it sees fit, eu or otherwise. so it has ever been.
the germans fyi are more bend-over-backwards european than any other nationality. one thing the british have continually failed to recognise, to their own enormous disadvantage, is that the shadow of nazism that still hangs even today over the german psyche makes that nation more willing than anyone else on the continent to conform and to make friends with other nations. germany today is the least assertive nation of its size in europe. that is why they let the french run the whole european show from the beginning - another regrettable outcome.
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An American friend of mine while working together in Kazakhstan some years ago, used to complain about feeling foreign. We Brits told him we felt British even when abroad.
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neuroblogr @ #163
I think you, perhaps, misunderstand me.
I have no objection to inward migration and what you call "reverse globalisation". I simply wish to state that I ma not British other than by passport designation. I am English because I have family roots that go back centuries not just as little as 60 years within the UK.
The more people that want to become part of Britain the better as far as I am concerned - if they are going to work, pay tax and fund my pension!
Those who leave the United Kingdom do so for what they see as a better life.
I do not know if they are doing so because Britian has become multi-ethnic but there is one thing for sure the one who are left behind in the UK have always got something to complain about - whatever their ethnic origin - and perhaps that is what is the essence of being British is . . . to an Australian the British are "whingeing pommies". Maybe so!
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benagyerek @ #164
Broad sweeping stement from both us maybe cloud the issue.
I may write like a stuffy 60 year old but that is my right of freedom to express myself as I see fit - to denigrate me is to show your own ignorance and intolerance.
Not all shallow-root citizens of the UK will necessarily feel that they are any less an English than I but I don't know the family history of your quoted example of Ian Wright.
West Indians have lived in the United Kingdom for centuries but the big influx of West Indians was 60 years ago. Those with deeper family roots may fell more affinity with England than Britain - but I really care not what they feel - I only try to explain the reason why I feel that I am English but not British any more.
My feeling that I am more English than British is because I feel alienated from being British and the term "British" has become merely a symbol of citizenship of the United Kingdom through owning a British Passport.
Just as someone can feel they are both Pakistani and British or Indian and British, I used to feel British first and English as a secondary label but, as time has elapsed and more and more people have entered the United Kingdom and become British Citizens, I have come to feel less and less British and more of an Englishman only.
I now feel an alien in what was my country of birth and to which I have historical connection that none of the 1960s and 1980s immigrant influx and their offspring can possibly know whether they call themselves English, British, Pakistani-British, Anglo-Indian, Indian-British, Afro-Caribbean, Caribbean-English or whatever they like to label themselves.
Me, I am definitively English living in the United Kingdom and I have a family tree that goes back a long way that allows me to feel English. Like it or lump it I don't give a damn!
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#164 - benagyerek
Either I have not expressed myself well or you are deliberately misinterpreting me. I did not suggest for one moment that Ian Wright is not English. What I do say is that, if he is English it is by choice because there is no legal status of being English. He may well feel English as he has every right to do - like Manedemus and myself - but his legal status is that he is British. This of course might change if SNP achieve a majority for Scottish independence in the coming months. It will be necessary to define the English then and not before time given that England is the only part of the Union which does not enjoy some degree of democratic self-determination.
As regards the powers of the German Federal Constitutional Court, you must form your own judgment about how effectively it works. I merely state the legal position.
The relative virtues of a written constitution as opposed to one which develops organically to meet the prevailing requirements is a complex one and would take up much too much space. In the past, I have favoured the British model for its flexibility noting that the apparently simple US Constitution has had to be amended 27 times since it came into force in 1787 whereas Magna Carta has remained in force since 1215 thanks in more recent times to the power of parliament to enact legislation in specific areas. I am however increasingly feeling that the process is open to misuse and would now certainly favour a mechanism for restricting the power of government by virtue either of a Bill of Rights or a codified constitution.
I cannot speak for Menedumus and I am not sure about the relevance but I tend to think that my sixty odd years means that I have 30 years more experience than you do in these matters. Actually, I would be very worried if we did not take the views of the young into account as they are the future but what does a senile old fool like me know?
I now live elsewhere in the EU. I can't be banged up for 42 days, my phone isn't tapped, my emails may be monitored but I don't think so, we don't have eco-crime, my bins are emptied 3 times a week, my council tax is half what I paid in the UK, there are places I can have a cigarette with my beer if I want one, government is the servant of the people not the master, public transport is an affordable service not a license to print money - need I go on?
Britain is over governed and over regulated and tediously bound up in its own red tape. In fact it is everything that the eurosceptics accuse the EU of. On the other hand, my love of the English countryside, cricket and warm beer on a Sunday afternoon a wonderfully poetic language and a 2,000 year old tradition are undiminished. I would love to live in England but I do not want to live in Britain.
In other words I am English and European to the core and British only because my birth certificate and passport say so. For someone who was raised to love my country, this gives me no satisfaction. But at least I can talk out of my arse and that takes 60 years of practice to do well. Keep working on it. You will get there in the end.
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#164, benagyerek,
Whether it's Federal or Federal Constitutional law is irrelevant and maybe you should try leaving London and living/working in your bend-over-backwards European Germany. Then you would maybe understand the way it is in Germany, which whilst still burdened by the historical past still tries to make out consensus politics and decision making means that it is no longer nationalist and blinkered. German people still believe that only goods made in Germany are worth buying and if a company wishes to sell in Germany then Globalisation cannot apply as there must be factories etc within Germany. I might say that I have worked in Germany and did enjoy my time there, but found the falsehood of consensus in business decision making frustrating, as a 'fuhrer' is the title of not just Hitler but any manager, and the psyche is to obey any manager without much debate.
As for your 'get out' that it is because there is a written Constitution in Germany, that simple doesn't wash, England has a number of Constitutional documents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_Kingdom) but our government simply ignores them as it wants, indeed the first constitution was the Magna Carta which was successively neutered by various governments over the centuries. I stand by my opinion that Germany and France are not true Europeans as they are far too inflexible in their mentality and nationalism to accept being the same as another country. The UK to its credit has proved that it can accept external immigration, be cosmopolitan and adopt non-English laws, and it is ever amazing to me that people like you have swallowed the French-German rubbish about it being the British that are not European, we are simply convenient scapegoats to hide the reality that it is they that are not true Europeans.
As for the French running the show, well the phrase 'yet another disaster pulled from the jaws of victory' typifies their ability in management. I know of no one here in Belgium who thinks they are anything but a disaster and I've lived in the French speaking part of Belgium for a very long time.
As far as being English is concerned or a Londoner or a Cockney, just being born there may make it technically correct to say you are English or Londoner, but to be truly English or a Londoner and be not just from there, your family roots must be there as well for many generations. I am English and also a Londoner, but not a cockney as I was not born within the sound of Bow bells, my London family can be traced back to 1800 so I consider 200 years makes me a true Londoner rather than an adopted Londoner. Friends of mine with some distant Scottish ancestry consider themselves to be both English and Scottish. Most West Indians and Asians that I've met whilst in my family area consider themselves Afro Caribbean/Asian plus British and/or English. Maybe long time English like me should consider ourselves Anglo Saxons or even German since that was where our ancestors originated from.
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To threnodio (141):
You are wrong. EU directives in practice trump over member countries constitutions.
If an EU directive, EU law, is in conflict with in example German constitution, the German constitution trumps over the EU law, but in that case Germany itself would be braking the EU treaties it has signed and the obligations that those treaties set. As Germany would be violating the treaties it has signed, EU commission would start process of getting Germany to comply with the EU law, first by setting penalties and in the end revoking Germany's membership in the Union.
When you are in the EU, you play with certain rules. If you sign treaties that oblige you to do something, you do those things you are obligated. Just in example, Finland joined EU in 1995, and membership treaty obliged it to join Euro when the currency would be introduced. Later when the time came to introduce Euro, Finnish constitution was changed to comply with the membership treaty. In EU, countries comply with the treaties they signed and accepted and the consequences that those treaties dictate to them, otherwise the whole Europe project would collapse.
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Another example of the interchangeability of Brits with English?
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wow, i never got such a big response to a post before :-)
okay, first of all, sorry for winding you all up so much. i thought i saw an undertow of racism in some of your comments that i did not like at all. mea culpa.
menedemus - i only said you SOUNDED stuffy, but i guess this is a nice distinction. all the same, i am sorry to tell you that i think the sense of alienation you feel is probably more a generational effect than simply to do with uk immigration. people that seem alien to you are friendly and familiar to me. i look forwards to experiencing the same feeling of alienation as my children take over in the 2030s.
national identity is always a tricky issue. it is an organic thing that clearly changes from generation to generation. however, to my mind english national identity is essentially cultural, and therefore much more inclusive than other nationalities that are based on blood (e.g. germany). if you went to an english school, watch english telly, moan about english transport, etc etc, and this is the main context of your entire life experience and you yourself feel english, then in my opinion you are english. english culture has marked you and made you one of its own, irrespective of where your parents came from. now of course i agree that home life is an important part of your cultural upbringing. but for many second generation and nearly all third generation immigrants it is not the dominant one.
what i really cannot abide is when people assert that national identity is based on how many generations you can trace your family tree back in this country. based on this criterion, at least half the celebrities featured on "who do you think you are" would be excluded. to my mind this kind of approach is unfair. it is also very stupid as it excludes such a large proportion of the english population. why exclude people if they themselves feel like they are one of us?
i take your various points about the distinction between british and english citizenship. i agree that british citizenship is increasingly like the rational contractual relationship of the enlightenment, and does not stir the emotional patriotism that it did 100 years ago.
threnodio - mindenki maganbol indul ki. i have spent plenty of time living in hungary, had the choice to live there permanently, but chose to stay in the uk instead. otherwise i agree with everything you say.
buzet - i spent a year working in berlin, although admittedly this was in the 90s, and the berliners are hardly typical germans when it comes to attitudes towards authority. i do not disagree with your view on german mentality - clearly the german education system still turns out students who are not sufficiently minded to question what they are told.
what i objected to in your earlier comment was your suggestion that somehow the german government is in a position to pick and choose european law whereas the uk government is not. in fact, in the area of eu criminal law, exactly the opposite is true. i said germany has a codified consitution (not a written constitution, which both germany and the uk have). the point is that the german constitution cannot just be amended at the whim of the ruling government as is the case in the uk. but constitutional law is a narrow area, and i doubt that the vast bulk of eu law raises any constitutional issues in germany at all, and therefore is as binding on that country as on the uk.
having said all this, i totally agree that implementation of eu law is much weaker in other countries than in the uk.
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#170 - Jukka_Rohila
There needs to be case law in depth before proper precedents are established but essentially the original Treaty of Rome requires that member states must be directly elected parliamentary democracies. The Commission has no such requirement. It follows that a Directive which sought to overrule the decision of a national parliament would be unlawful. Therefore any action taken against a country for failing to enforce would in itself be unlawful. Expulsion from the EU is not subject to QMV so to do so would require the nation concerned to vote for its own expulsion. In other words stalemate - which is exactly what was intended. Until there is a solid base of case law, these questions can only be resolved by negotiation. In the meantime, my remarks about the distinction between implementation and enforcement stand.
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Conveniently forget every Asian that helped the UK finance and fight in WW1 and WW2 and systematically break and disembowel their home country and then complain and penalise when these same folk move on to better than working in mills is what is meant to be British! God bless the englishman who profits from others! that is what made the UK what it is, and god help those non english who try to achieve the same!
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How to spot English? Simple...they are the only people on the party who don't remember any single moment of the party
:-))))
Cheers!
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What happened to Boris and Natasha? They seem to have disappeared. But they will be back....in the next episode.
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To threnodio (173):
No. National parliaments as they have ratified EU treaties have accepted to transfer in certain areas power to create laws and regulations to the EU level under certain rules. Thus the EU does have the right to make EU laws under conditions agreed on current treaties.
There is no need for case law or precedents. If a country doesn't fulfill its treaty obligations then the EU commission and EU institutions have the obligation under current treaties to get the country that is not fulfilling its obligation to comply with the EU law. There are many cases where EU has noted that a member state is not fulfilling its obligations and has brought the case into a EU court. Yes, we haven't seen EU commission on threatening to revoke membership, but that is because there hasn't never been a need for it.
The European Union works because member countries want to work together. To work together they need common rules and regulations. All member states have agreed on certain rules. If a member state doesn't accept rules that it has already accepted, then the whole system is in danger as the whole foundation of EU is based on following common rules. If a country doesn't want to follow common rules, the only acceptable thing is for it to leave the Union.
You know I don't even understand why we are talking about this. If you are in the EU, you follow EU rules, if you are out of it, you don't have to follow its rules, that's the moral guide.
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MarcusAureliusII, 157 "so by your logic people born in the Ukraine are Ukrainians not Russians and should learn to speak Ukrainian, wave the Ukr. flag, root for Ukr football teams and not be traitors by trying to turn part of Ukr into Russia."
Yes. I recognise the right of people born in the Ukraine to do all the above.
But Russian understanding what is "Ukraine" differs from what you think Ukraine is, and has nothing to do with its present geographical outlines.
Ukraine (u kraya - on the edge - of Russia) is the farthest end of it from us. Western part, siding with "the West".
While East of the current Ukraine is Russia proper.
So the Eastern fellows are ours, Russian. Now and in the preceding centuries.
The Western fellows are indeed a thing of their own, originally - a Southern Russian tribe (year 868), due to their geographic position "on the edge" were constantly subject to various external influences. At some points were grabbed by Poland and were influenced by Catholisism, also a heavy influx of cossack culture. They are Southerners in their ways, hedonistic by nature, comfort first.
They do have own funny language (pre-historic Russian + external influences) and cultural features differentiating them from modern Russians in the North.
Funny you mentioned football and flag, our St. Petersburg football team Zenith who won many European things this summer has a Ukrainian captain. On all award ceremonies first thing he does is grabs his yellow-blue flag and stretches it on his shoulders, like, all the team is blue and white - Zenith colours, and only captain is yellow and dark blue colours - stressing that he won UEFA or whatever in the name of his darling Ukraine, not for Russia (who pays his high kind of salary and all).
Well, annoying, he never stops displaying his true allegence, but we can live with it, he is a Ukr proper and has the right to love his Motherland.
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#174, MostonHead,
If you're referring to what we're saying about being truly English then I think you've misunderstood us. I don't think any of us forget the contributions of the Commonwealth countries and indeed the peoples from other EU countries that helped fight the Germans in two world wars. Neither do I consider the advancement of people who've emigrated to the UK and who are now 'British' anything other than to their credit. It is never easy to integrate in a new country as I well know, and I do dislike those who try to re-invent a new little England, Scotland, Pakistan, India, Africa, West India etc in another country, something I was never part of. However, nobody ever forgets their roots and trying to ridicule the English for remembering is also insulting all the people of Afro-Caribbean origin in the UK who are doing the same, and likewise those of Asian origin. What is sad about your comment is that you have seemingly fallen into the Politically Correctness trap where it's ok to criticise the old English but not PC to do the same to those of non-English roots.
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There are 3 types of English:
1 The upper crust who gave the English their reputation and power of yesteryear. They have stopped breeding and all but disappeared and rarely seen
2 The middle classes who have been the backbone of England have been hounded out of England by socialist/ communist government policies of the last 15 years ( starting with John Major). They have been replaced by people from overseas in search of the reputed English but guess what - they are not here
3 The working classes who are mostly dumb socially and economically deprived people who are now in charge of this country and look what and where we are! A mess. In fact it is the reason we feel the need for this blog in the first place.
signed
paperfinger
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RegalBankie @ 174
Would you also presume the Scottish or Welsh and "Brit" were interchangeable or do you forget the other British Citizens of the United Kingdom?
I guess I used to think of myself as a "Brit" and, wherever I travelled the world, I would be pleased to socialise with fellow "Brits" whether they were English, Welsh or Scottish - we were all "Brits". I particularly also liked to bump into the Irish as my wife is Irish.
The strange thing was that when this was the case, a fellow "Brit" looked like me, thought like me and even talked like me albeit our accents might be very different.
These days I only choose to socialise with English, Welsh Scottish and Irish people - and I can have a laugh, drink and am happy in their company but I am no longer a "Brit" because that is a term that almost anyone can give themselves if they get a British Passport - and that is too easy to do these days.
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MostonHead @ #174
I am not sure how you draw those conclusions from anything that has been written in this Blog thread?
I see no complaints against Asians other than my fear of the, hopefully, only a few Moslems who place their Religion ahead of being British and would commit acts of terrorism in the UK and kill their fellow citizens which could include me or travel to Pakistan, join the Mujahadeen and enter Afghanistan to kill British Soldiers.
I simply define myself as English because I refuse to be a victim of someone who claims to be British but is nevertheless my enemy.
Of course, if you look for warts, spots and blemishes you only have to look to yourself first - none of us are perfect.
As it happens I have never personally disembowled my Home Country, India or Pakistan and please do not try to blame me for something the "real British" (and not your "passport British" of today!) might or might not have done hundreds of years ago - that is a stunningly stupid piece of revisionism and a perversion of history to try and justify the reverse racism that is prevalent in the United Kingdom today at the hands of people who have a "victim mentality" and wish to harm their fellow citizens for perceived victimization that does not exist except in their closed minds.
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Natash Dahlink, how nice to see you back. I thought you might have fallen down another rabbit hole or through a looking glass and gotten lost.
I'm glad you straightened this whole thing out. We in the west were under a misapprehension. We thought Ukraine was an independent nation. Little did we suspect that it is and always will be part of Russia. Now that we've got that straight, perhaps what the Ukranians ought to do is give up the Ukranian language and flag and learn Russian. But who is going to break the news to them. I'm sure they will be very disappointed but they'll get used to it. And if they don't, the KGB has plenty of polonium and agent orange left to put in their water supply to convince them.
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There's another way to spot the English these days, they're those who are getting totally fed up with being told it's not politically correct to call themselves English and that they're British instead. Which is probably why they're forming a queue to get out of England as quick as possible.
I also wonder if all you Irish, Scots and Welsh out there would accept being told you can't call yourself by your own origin should you so wish.
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#177 - Jukka_Rohila
Please do not misunderstand me. To begin with, the democratic deficit not withstanding, I am absolutely committed to the European project. You are absolutely right to require that Euro-enthusiasts should co-operate to the greatest extent possible. Logically, those who are sceptical should come right out and campaign for withdrawal altogether so that this constant bickering can end.
All I am saying is while the rules are clear, they have never been put to the ultimate test of outright defiance by one member country. Given the grave disquiet about the above mentioned democratic deficit, the principle will be challenged sooner or later and the outcome is far from certain.
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If Yushenko and Tymoshenko carry on bickering like spoiled children I imagine either the Russians or the EU will have to take over anyway before the whole place crumbles around their ears.
This, you will recall, was a mature democracy a few weeks ago.
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@Menedemus (151)
We should praise yours sincerity, which is one of the important virtues often associated with the people of English origin. There are so many great individuals through the history. The same could sometimes extend to a foolishness, expecially when it comes to elaborate other cultures.
I would like to mention a fact, which is so prominently exhibited inside the London War Museum. There is a description under the uniform of a soldier from the colonial era in India, saying something like "tollerance and understanding of other cultures". Namely, some elements of the uniform are of Indian origin.
This is contrary to yours "not understanding the history of Pakistan, India, etc."
I think you agree this thread is about to extend maximum hipocrisy. Some of us could vomit.
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Once upon a time it was easy to spot the English (and I don't mean British) in a crowd. The English always had an expression on their faces that suggested that they had just smelled something slightly foul that offended their noses. You could see it in old moves with old English actors like David Niven. But times change. Now that look is gone replaced by one evidently less benovalent. Too bad about that. There was something rather amusing about those old faces. Nothing amusing about their replacements now anymore.
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Marcus
Whatever expression is on the face of an Englishman nowaday you can be certain that it it is far better than the sneer on yours!
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bonybbony @ #187
Vomit for all I care.
You misunderstand me and that is your fault not mine.
I am not being intolerant of immigrants to the United Kingdom from the Indian sub-Continent - the more the merrier as far as I am concerned as long as they integrate, work, pay tax and subsidise my pension I care not a jot that they are here.
However, rather than call myself British any more I choose to call myself English because that is my heritage and the historical background of my family history.
The Indian, Pakistani and Bangladeshi British are welcome to call themselves whetever they choose and if they choose to call themsleves British then that's fine by me. I am simply no longer British myself.
I see no cant or hypocracy in that statement but if you want to see warts, spots and blemishes then that is your sickness not mine.
Feel free to vomit as much as you like - I'll not hold the bucket.
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MarcusAureliusII I laughed myself out about your 186! Great and wonderful, I mean,
I will really miss you when this thread is over hopefully not soon.
No, I haven't fallen down another rabit hole. yet.
(FYI only fat turks in the beaches call all Russian girls Natasha-s) (I hope you aren't one humpty-dumpty looking) (well OK you can be) (round people are supposed to be kinder)
With Ukraine - what to do! You have here an honest Russian opinion not some silly Kremlin newspapers that will tell you whatever and will never of course mention
what all really think ab Ukraine.
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I see the case in what Menedemus writes.
I can't prove it technically but I feel he is right somehow.
Even I feel a bit troubled there is nowhere to apply the word "English" to.
In my personal uprising I took the habit to insert the word "England" into all postal addresses, like when I write a letter to England, I write W4 4EJ something, or "East Sussex" - then - "England" (in big letters), then I add a small concession to the post office, like, OK - "UK."
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To threnodio (185):
Okey, I understand your point. It is good, but then again, I would say that contesting rules is always a potential threat and a danger of both confederations and federations. If we look at the USA, which was and very much still is a strong federation, they had a bloody civil war, they even now have secessionist movements in many states and in some cases the federal and state laws are contradictory.
I would say that contesting rules is more of an theoretical question. Its all about economics. Its about how much would the member state gain by contesting rules, how much does it gain from following the rules and how much could it loose in a confrontation with the EU commission and with other member states. To this date there hasn't been any case where any member state would have seen it wise or beneficial to contest rules and rejecting ECJ. The only possible conflict that could happen is Sweden's obligation to join Euro, which at least now will be a none issue after the current financial crisis is over.
Actually, to be honest, I think that it is good that there is a possibility that some member country could revolt against EU commission. I think it keeps the politics and decisions more fair and everybody seeking solutions that are acceptable or livable with all members. This seeking of common ground is the best to way to avoid conflicts.
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Sorry, Marcus A's was 183.
186 is threnodio's ab Ukraine how lovely they quarrel.
It may seem they quarrel ab Russia and Georgia, but honestly they simply quarrel, their normal condition, so all allright in Ukraine.
Technically it began by Ukr president writing a paper condemning Russia's pirate behaviour in Georgia.
His parliament refused to approve this paper.
President said he will send such disagreeable Parliament to the dogs.
Parliament in revenge quickly took a law making president impeachment easy.
President used his right to dissolve parliament in 40 days, and began the count-down.
In reply Parliament took a new law prohibiting the president to nominate 3 nice people: Head of Intelligence service, Head of army and Head of foreign relations.
In reply president, who can still chose his own Prosecutor General, decided to use this Prosecutor General, and accused the main parliament girl, Timoshenko, in treason.
But couldn't collect evidence because until recently she dearly hated Russia.
So he blamed her instead in poisoning him when he got such a face years ago.
So Timoshenko now every morning, surrounded by a media gang, starts the day from visiting the Prosecutor's office, where she explains she didn't poison president, and he simply caught leprosy some place or something and is mad anyway.
She is very very angry.
In Russia she is is nick-named "The Woman with the Scythe" (like, death, Jolly Roger and all)
Because her braid around her head sounds in Russian like "scythe."
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why is my comments not showing?
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#194 - WebAliceinwonderland
Since a scythe is nothing more than a large sickle all we have to do is give her a large hammer to go with it and we will all be back to square one :-)))
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WebAliceinwonderland @ #192
You are not wrong to write addresses for people as living in England. It is a place, it is a country and it exists.
I have friends who live in France and put "Angleterre" as the country of destination for postcards and letters when writing to me and other friends in England.
When I reside in Spain, I write "Inglaterra" when writing home to my friends and loved ones.
To other Europeans, England is both a country and part of a larger country.
Unfortunately, political correctness has come along with liberal indoctrination and we all live in the United Kingdom which is a laugh really as this United Kingdom will eventually become disunited and I expect that Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland AND England will have their own Assemblies and self-autonomy.
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You can spot the English by their confusion. It is acceptable and allowed for a black politican to demand blacks-only schools, since he believes the childrens' parents would like teachers who resemble themselves. If a white person said the same thing, substituting 'white' instead of 'black' he would be accused of racism. There is a Black Policemans Union. Can you imagine such an institution as a White Policemans Union? It would be considered, quite rightly as racist. So why isn't the one for black policeman judged in the same way. Can it be that the English are inverted racists? This probably wont be passed by the moderators, well we will see!
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Personal pride would prevent any Latin behaving the way you describe. Reserve? Stiff upper lip? These went with the Empire Old Man along with Public School accents and school caps.
There are three quarters of a million of us living permanently in Spain. How can one possible generalize? Some fully intigrate into Spanish society in a few years, some have been here forty years and are still as English ( or French or whatever) as the day they arrived.
Often the only way to tell origin of people here is by the language spoken between themselves. Spanish, Catalan, English English English, French, German, Rumanian, Russian, Arabic and more can be heared in the street, shops and bars any day of the week.
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As Homer Simpson said, "English? why should I learn to speak English? I am not going to England!"
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Yes, but in the Russian post-office you always get stuck what to write and maybe all of them just in case:
Anglia
Britania
Velikobritania (GreatBritania)
Soedinennoye Korolevstvo (United Kingdom)
On tops you are also called here Antanta but I don't know why.
Angleterre - there is one such old hotel in St. Petersburg, this I know.
There is an old rhyme ab it:
Mister-Twister
Former Ministerrr
Mister-Twister
Millionnaire
Owner of factories, cars and steam-boats
Came to the hotel "An-gle-terre!"
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I remembered now how I was finding out that I am a little bit English, Jesus Christ.
Godsky Allmightsky.
I knew I come from an English family that became completely Russian in the course of time, but it was pretty abstract and all ties were lost after revolution.
So when in England I got stuck in papers and micro-chips and libraries, joined various family history societies, attended meetings with tea parties and got covered with dust of church registers. Matching who married whom and second marriage and wills and bishop's transcripts, disaster.
Remember how I arrived at one point to a small village and caused there havoc though all people nicely came to help, the whole church committee, all walked with me around the church trying to find "the Southern side" because"there is a Russian girl here who wants to see the tomb-stones." I tried to demand my tomb-stones and couldn't find them and no one could explain me what happened to them. People only apologised like "you didn't visit them these 200 years". To which I couldn't say anything, true.
Anyway I thought all died, what to do, and even tomb-stones disappeared, so I am the last one leftover.
Then imagine I once complained on Radio 4, there was a talk when NATO was bombing Jugoslavia, and I of course said I am a Russian here, and leave Jugoslavia alone, etc.
In two days at 1 o'clock in the morning I got a telephone call from an unknown man who said how happy he is to have found me, via this radio, because "the 2th wife of his father" is an old lady 98 yrs old who doesn't sleep at 4am, she heard the familiar name mentioned, and told him there is a Russian in London who mentioned the surname so dear to her heart. So he figured out this is the Russian branch of the family, and the English branch thought we all perished in Russia in revolution, because noone heard from us everafter.
He invited me to come over get acquainted, and I was saying I cannot tomorrow, and he said "What's more important for you than to finally get home!"
Then I must say I was extremely spoiled as much as possible, and in rare intervals when they were not spoiling me, my English distant cousin pulled me around the village with the same talk to the neighbours:
"Have you seen the portrait of my grandfather John?
(yes of course we all had)
Well. He had a senior brother, Richard. Who went to St. Petersburg, Russia. And this (pointing at me) - is the final result of it!
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Re: Schengen
Yes I see what you chaps are saying about how silly, irritating, small-minded and anti-European it is that Britain is not part of Schengen, and I would be very much in favour of Britain joining.
BUT: Britain may be (studpidly) anti-"European", although it is inside it, but I hear all the time from people that know, that Britain is by far the most friendly and welcoming country from the point of view of non-European immigrants. So hey, although I take a rather "The quiet American" attitude to it, i.e. "Yes I love London, I love it right where it is, I don't want to bloody GO there", I still have the damned passport + childhood [baggage]....
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Natashka
I was referring to America's favorite cartoon villains of the 1960s Boris Badenoff and Natasha Fatale. They worked for Fearless Leader and "Mister Big" as spies for Pottsylvania. They appeared on the Rocky and Bullwinkle show which was a favorite of the times. Rocky was a flying squirrel and Bullwinkle was a Moose. They lived in Frostbite Falls Minnesota on the Canadian border. There are lots of clips of Boris and Natasha segments on YouTube.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rocky_and_Bullwinkle_Show
Of course I had my real life favorite Soviet villains as well. My all time favorite was Anatoly Churkin, one of the greatest liars I ever saw anywhere. He could charm the nails out of your shoes. I think he is now Russia's ambassador to the UN. Much older and grayer. And then there was Vladimir Posner whom I used to refer to as uncle Vlad. He was such a personable individual. He didn't have a trace of a foreign accent and spoke with a slight speech impediment which made him all the more human. Utterly disarming and very likable, it was easy to forget he was a Soviet agent. And then there was Yuri "we want to be your friends" Arbatov, a retired Soviet General. He was the perfect cure for insomnia. I often reflected on what a hard life Soviet Politburo members must have had sitting though hour after hour of interminable speeches about the latest five year plans. If they walked out or fell asleep they might get shot.
Well those good old days are gone forever as was one of my favorite short wave radio stations Radio Moscow but I did listen for awhile to Voice of Russia on the internet and my favorite was Joseph Adamoff. I wonder what ever became of him. He was very entertaining but often highly critical of the Russian government (I think he was Armenian) and then one day poooof, he just disappeared into thin air. C'est la vie Natashka.
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Busby2 #189
Here is how I spot Englishmen. They remind me of;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr8tPlTEGyk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KnIaLTd3Pw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8Aal4VGbqc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApskOL6bP6g
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WebAliceinwonderland @ #202
Thank you for your post. I am glad you found your family roots and connections with England.
We could make you an honorary English Lady but I'd guess you're happy to remain Russian! Our loss.
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MAII @ #205
I bet the creator of the Commander McBragg videos was an Englishman.
The English can take the rise out of themselves unmercifully. Our most popular stand up comics are those that relate funny stories of what they see and hear in everyday situations.
In fact, the Scots, the Welsh and the English all have their own pet situational stand-up comics that see the funny side of their own nationality and we all laugh along even though it is ourselves that are the butts of the jokes.
For me a comedian, called Jasper Carrot relating a personal story of having to resort to using a shotgun to shoot the moles digging up his garden and doing so in the middle of the night is so funny and so typically English that it makes me laugh even think about it now. But it is a story that is quintessentially that of an Englishman protecting his lawn - this is a link:
Jasper Carrot and his Mole Problem
That is an Englishman at his funniest and relating a very English story but many non-English people just simply would not understand why it is so funny to an English person.
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This link might be (arguably) more attractive to the eye to support the humour of Jasper Carrot's comic story:
I've got a Mole - animated version
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To WebAliceinwonderland, #202,
I'm pleased that you were able to find your English roots, your story about the graves is very typical as many old stones have either been removed, broken or are totally illegible due to the passage of time. One of the great things is that because England has not been too damaged by wars, uprisings, fires etc, most of the old records are still intact unlike many continental countries where doing family history research is much more of a lotto. I too have spent a very long time on this subject and it is a shame that since my paternal line is from London it is very hard to go back much beyond 1800 as there are too many complications, lost records etc, and very few grave stones before 1850.
As a result of my own research I now have an extended family in South London that is very large, and it has emphasised my determination to remain English and never British, and the more it upsets the PC thought police the better!
PS. Menedemus, Jasper is very funny and I quite agree that the English are one of the few peoples who can take a joke about themselves, unfortunately that's maybe why we are easy scapegoats for the non-European countries like France and Germany who run the EU.
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@Menedemus (190)
Whose misunderstanding? It is your fault you refuse to see hypocrisy growing behind the curtain. What is the subject of this thread? You and your reflection, day after day, indefinitely. Where is the end of this? How much sincerity can be, in speaking of anything, after four days of looking into the mirror? This is what is becoming insipid here.
I think the intention of the author of this blog is to convert "you all hate Europe" to "you all hate being English". It looks like the blog will not continue until this matter becomes sufficiently exausted.
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To #211 bonybbony,
Your comment is hard to understand but if there is hypocrisy here it's from those that criticise anyone proud to say they're English. If you don't believe that then explain why it is politically correct for say an Afro-Caribbean to be proud of their roots whilst an Englishman should not be, that is hypocrisy as it's either everyone can be proud of their cultural heritage or nobody should (which is subservient dictatorship).
As for 'you all hate Europe', please don't mix up Europe for the undemocratic EU institution that we live under. Most people that I talk to here in the heart of the EU, Belgium, don't like the current EU's direction either, and no Engish person I know 'hates being English', they merely hate being told they're British rather than English by ignorant politically correct control freaks.
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Markusha,
(what an annoying approach to call me natashka) (but I guess you're set to play with the idea for quite some time on).
I've asked Mum about various Russian personalities you've listed, because these sound like belong to the Soviet times.
Ab Arbatov she says he was head of the "Institute of USA and Canada",
a Jewish organisation, created in Moscow as a feeding place for friends and acquaintance. For travel to the capitalistic West on state expense, to "reserach the main enemy" and get nice salaries and travel expenses paid while busy working in NY on this important for the interests of the Motherland task.
She says of course all are spies there, because noone who is not a spy ever travelled to the USA in the Sov.times.
All graduates of Foreign Relations and var. Diplomatic corprs academies and institutes, "golden youth", still dream to get via acquaintance a job with this old Arbatov's Institute.
Now Mum says the Institute of "Enemy study" is still live and kicking, headed by the son of the first Arbatov director, Alexey Arbatov. But without Jewish connections forget about getting a job there.
Vladimir Pozner has also worked under KGB, a famous "jouralist - internationalist", and Mum says, like, also "nowhere to put a stamp on". This expression means, like, when you bring a golden ring to money-lenders (when you need money you have banking system, you go to a bank for a loan, we still go to money-lenders with rings and earings and old family golden teeth!), so they put a tiny stamp on the gold. And when a thing is too many times sold and bought out again, it gets all stamped over, therefore the expression -"nowhere anymore to put a stamp on."
However he indeed sounds a pleasant man, what to do, as if any journalist could be allowed to work in USA in Sov. times without a strict KGB umbrella.
About Churkin nothing to add, he indeed protects Russian interests in the UN now, totally white-haired, but he seems to be protecting these interests rather badly.
Joseph Adamov sorry unknown.
The best radio-wave and programme in Russia for years is "Echo of Moscow".
Totally Jewish allover, there isn't one speaker there who can say Russian "r",
but what to do, if there isn't one brave Russian left in the country who dares to say what's on his mind on radio.
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bonybbony @ #211
You sound to me as someone who has a low threshold of tolerance and because you do not find the Blog thread interesting you seem to feel or want to demand that the comments should end and discussion cease just because you find it insipid.
You just see wood when there are individual trees to behold.
The thread has discussed the English sense of humour, the English education system, the loudness of the English, the ability of the English to not speak English as well as the non-English, the fact that some people see the traits of the English as no worse than their own kind when it comes to drunkeness, the EU, the Schengen Treaties, Natasha, Boris, Alice's adventures on the London Underground and finding some of her English kin, The perception of the English from Belgium, France and Spain, that the English beat up on themselves too much and a whole lot more that I won't go scouring for through the thread.
I have just read Alice's post at 213 and that to me is interesting and it comes about because of an earlier comment. All the comments have actually been quite interesting except yours and one about wanting Mark to post a new Blog Topic which was neither here nor there as the discussions and comments continued.
If you want to discuss any of the topics that have come up in the thread then fine - let us discuss. All I read is that you find the Blog topic from Mark an irritation but you made no comments other than to carp about the content of the thread.
I have found the thread very interesting. You find it insipid.
You, chum, are the sick puppy and need to go (as you suggested in your earlier post @ #187 as something you wanted to do) vomit elsewhere.
If you don't like the thread then don't read it. Nobody is forcing you to stay if you do not find the thread interesting.
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@Buzet23 (212)
I'm just saying this discussion is heading for hypocracy. The result should be "we like Europe", whatever nondemocratic it is. Is is by no means interesting to speak about English culture, or about any other particular culture, but this has an end. Egotism can convert to hypocracy.
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I went to see if I could find a Blog where the discussion could be all about "We like Europe - however non-democratic it is". As wanted by bonybbony!
Strangely enough, the Blogs I found that matched the requirements were the EU Commissioners Margot Wallstrom's and Stavros Dimos' Blogs.
How cunning is that!
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Reading a comment on Margot Wallstrom's Blog, I found a quaint problem that is not mentioned in the UK Press but is a unique English problem with EU generated rules.
The EU have decided that all member state Motorcyclists must undertake a brake test as part of their proficiency test. This is set at 50kph.
Sound good to me. Never really thought it would cause a problem. But neither did the EU see the problem!
50kph equates to 31.7mph and the Motorcycle Test in the UK now has to be done off-road because we don't do kph we do mph and 30mph is our top suburban road speed limit.
The UK is having to build special off-road test centers just to cope with the EU motorcycle proficiency test requirement.
Does the EU ever consult about their rules before they issue edicts!
If it wasn't so funny, it would make you cry!
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This is getting ridiculously out of hand.
There is a spectacularly rich English culture (bonybbony) which is not simply about castles and red tunics. The literature of what, after all, is the most widely spoken language on the planet not only has its ethos in England but has been immeasurably enriched by it over the centuries. Architecture, the visual arts, theatre, dance and cinema have all been enriched by English contributions and those ignorant souls who quote Brahms when he describes England as the "land without music" have clearly not being paying attention throughout the 20th century. If you do not find talking about English culture, that is your loss. Please do not presume to cast the mantle of your philistinism over the rest of us.
I think the point you are trying to make is a valid one, though you could have put it better. English culture does not and neither should it exist in isolation. Neither does the Italian or French or Spanish tradition. They are all interwoven into a tapestry that is primarily though not exclusively European. To that extent, trying to elevate one national identity above another for cultural purposes is an exercise in futility. Nevertheless, it raises fascinating topics of conversation.
Meanwhile, the focus of world attention is on the global economy. If you are bored, try the political and economic correspondent's blogs. Mark Mardell is not obliged to post a new thread every day and, as grown ups, I am sure we can be left to our own devices for a few days. I am especially enjoying the brick bat exchanges between Alice and Marcus - keep it up lads! - and Menedemus' eminently reasonable posts are always interesting even if we occasionally differ.
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Menedemus God bless you
I am heartily touched by the idea of the "honorary English lady". Very, how to say, complimentary.
And Buzet23, pleased that I was "able to find your English roots", thank you.
At least finally I was able to boast here a little bit of these achievements! because absolutely nowhere to boast to otherwise.
Honestly this was of course enormous good luck, what were the chances, as I wrote, that one 97-year old lady would be listening to the radio very very attentively, at 4 o'clock in the morn.! I remember when I got a phone call from an unknown old English cousin, eager to see me, so worried he'd miss me, he said he kept calling non-stop, afraid I'll leave London and the family will be dis-united another 100-200 years. I said to myself: Well. Normally you're unlucky. But if this isn't a hilarious sudden happiness out of the blue skies - what is luck then?
I even poured myself a glass of wine and sat lost in emotions alone.
In my fam. history research I focused on the pre-historic times, was busy with years 1600-1700, didn't undertake any effort of looking among the modern people.
I thought, like, if I find contemporaries, what would I tell them? That I think I am your relative because I have an old portrait above the fire-place? Nobody wants to be a poor relative from Russia, of all places, falling onto some unknown people's head.
All very unelegant and sensitive matters.
Besides, I could have found I don't know what, what if the new old relatives are nasty? What if they are not that English you want them to be, what you imagine from Russia they ought to be? And they don't resemble you in looks, and don't like what you like, and don't recognise you and say "get lost".
I was double happy after, when I found all
I wanted, it's like - you picture a picture - and here it is - delivered to you - in reality - like an apple on a saucer with a blue rim!
Take it, it's yours!
I was outrageously happy to find my England the way I dreamed it to be, will never forget.
In the family here no one looked to re-establish connections, I was the first one, and honestly, the family is small, both here and in England.
Only the Australian branch in our fam tree is flourishing, in England as well as in Russia - we are dying out.
As English, and as Russian - combined!
Incredible.
Must be in Australia life was easier in the past 150 years, or climate better, or I don't know what.
Noone looked for connections on Russian side for obvious reason - it was deadly dangerous to have relatives in the "enemy capitalistic West." Besides, my father and grandafther were in the navy.
My father has been to London, in 1970s, but surely never dared to look for cousins. One thought in this direction... would have costed him the career - as min. Even after Perestroyka, I was in London several times -never looked myself either. I knew while he works - England is taboo. Look at your portrait of Richard - be happy. Full stop. Father would have got a heart-break if I presented him even with a finding of a tomb-stone of his own folk, of year 1600.
To say nothing of a live contemporary cousin, for a Russian admiral. The future of the Russian Navy didn't allow for such dynamite discoveries.
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Alice, sorry you don't like Natashka. I'll just call you Alice then.
Learning about the USSR before it opened up and then fell was like exploring another planet with a radiotelescope. Hostile, interesting, different, complex, an alien civilization. People always look for what they have in common. I am much more interested in what is different about them. We all have the same biological needs to survive but beyond that, everything else is different. I wonder who had a more distorted picture of the other side, you or us. We really were on opposite sides of the looking glass.
We were always frightened and aware of the possibility of war at any time without warning. It almost happened in 1962. I don't know if you have any idea of how close the end actually came. There were days at school we didn't know if we would live to see our home and family again that night. Historic accounts of the Cuban missile crisis prove our worst fears were well justified, that's how near we came. There may have been other times too like during the middle east war in 1973.
We know you heard a lot of bad things about us. And many of them were true. At least in part. In most political lies, somewhere there is often at least a small element of truth. But much was exaggerated and taken out of context. Believe it or not, most of us were happy. maybe happier than we are today even though we have much more money and things.
We heard a lot of bad things about you too. The picture was very bleak. A drab hopeless place where you were told what to do all of your life. Slaves of the state. We know Russians had a great sense of humor about it. I've heard a lot of Russian jokes in my life and some of them are pretty funny. President Reagan's favorite reportedly had to do with a man in Moscow who was chosen by the local party committee to get something he always wanted, a new car because of all the good work he had done. Comrade Yuri, you have been selected to get a new car. Go down to the car dealer and give him this slip of paper to claim your reward. And so he did. And the car dealer told him, Comrade Yuri, congratulations, this is a rare honor. Everything seems to be in order. We have a backlog at the factory so it will take some time before you actually get your car. You will get it exactly ten years from today. and Yuri asked, "will that be in the morning or the afternoon?" And the car dealer asked "it's ten years away, why does it matter?" And Yuri told him "because that's the same day the plumber is coming to fix the pipes.
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#217 - Menedemus
No problem. Just introduce a 'eurohour' which, by my calculation, will be 56.78233438485804416403785488959 minutes.
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To Menedemus (217):
In the case of braking test in motorcycle driving test I would say that you should lay the blame to the British government. Of course EU tries to take into account different member countries as best as it can, but in the end its the responsibility of member states themselves to be vigilant about proposed legislation and its impacts on the member country. To me this seems more about working accident by the British government officials.
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#219, WebAliceinwonderland ,
It's good you have found links to both England and Australia, the family history research quite often turns up links to the most incredible places. My own families seem to have had the wanderlust as they went all round the world and I now swap mails/talk to distant cousins in both hemispheres. This has an added advantage of opening the eyes a bit as you learn a lot about other countries and what goes on there and also where the population came from.
As far as ethnicity goes it does have a place as I do consider myself English and that is not down to ego, even though technically we were possibly from one of three tribes that came over from the Germanic area some 1500 years back. Most people like to have somewhere to relate to and we're all no different to that.
PS, I just thought of another way to spot the English abroad, they're the ones going to the English shop in Waterloo just south of Brussels.
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Jukka_Rohila @ #222
I would say so too. ;=)
The ptobably youthful UK Officials were probably stuggling with their own arithmetic conversion of "kph" to "mph" due to the quality of the UK Education system.
I just find it so funny that the UK motor-cyclists have to take their proficiencty test - partly on the road and now partly on an off-road test centre because of 1.7mph difference in speed limits between the UK and the rest of Europe.
One day the UK will get a hang of this metric lark and catch up with the rest of Europe! :=))
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Buzet23 "as far as ethnicity goes it does have a place as I do consider myself English".
Please by all means continue and don't merge into greater "Britain" or EU or wherever you are supposed to merge.
Merge, how to say, technically and purely symbolically.
But pls keep yourself incl. the full list of defects and inclinations and whatever abnormalities I mean the uniqueness in the process.
I was looking for "England" so very much, not for any UK thank you very much (UK is easy to find), finally found it, and I want it be and not to get dissolved in bigger places to unrecognisable degrees!
It will be unfair, like, Alice, get acquainted with the pudding, now - take the pudding away!
How will the grandchildren of wanderers and travellers, and other strangers in the night like I am will be otherwise finding it, if need be, 200 years from now on!
And I salute threnodio (in at 218) what a strange visitor we had to the thread suggesting English culture is not worth discussing. I can discuss it eternally, I only wish I knew better.
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menedemus
You are sain that you call yourself English,but Black or Asian people living in England are not English but British.
I think they are both.
What would they be when England is separated from Scotland and Wells and North Ireland?
They cant be British anymore cause Britain wont exist any longer.
They cant be Former British nither.
So if a person regardless of skin color or origines is born and raised in England then he is English.
And the majority of them do actually suport English team,cause thats what they are.English.
But i do agree with you that a white English is ETHNIC English.While a Black or Asian an Ethnic minority.But English,and as long as England is part of Britain British.
Dont you agree?
Phoenixarisen.
Of course that talk of Black-for Black schools is understandable (not that i agree with it) as well as Black Policeman Union,because Blacks in England are a minority which often have to deal with Racism in institutions,while the whites are a majority in what is a very white country.
And yes talk of schols for whites only,or white policeman union would be racist if not a joke.
Come on!!!
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So tell me how are you managing with the great influx of foreigners onto the island, new cultures, who don't always want to merge but sometimes opt to live in enclaves?
Maybe this is not the case for England, but those compact dwellings are more characteristic for France?
What's British policy in this respect - to get all merged or to keep all separate, or may be there is no mental directions, it is natural, the way it happens - it happens. ?
I am asking becase also want to know for Russia, we have here enormous amounts of the Commonwealth people, since USSR collapsed republics became poor and people can't survive always in these new countries, but go work in Russia. Was never the case before, with Soviet social security system, even if you had no money - and who had? nobody had. still apartment bill was a joke, telephone-electricity-heating a joke, education FOC from kindergarten to academician, health care total crap but also FOC, there was simply nowhere to spend the money on, and you could do nil and still have a house and survive without any job.
Not the case now, so millions and millions ex-USSR here, nobody speaks Russian, nobody wants to know it for more than to drive a bus or be a sales assistant in a supermarket, and we seem to have no policy either what to do, simply hope they will all eventually leave us and return homes. But maybe they won't. Because Russians are becoming a minority, nobody wants to have any children, women like, voted "this country is not for living", in natural uprising to the Government.
Putin said he will pay 10 thousand dollars to every woman who will agree to have a second child. Didn't work. He raised it to 15,0000 dollars (new law). All he got is muslim girls decided to have 10 children instead of 8. Russians are still "the title nation", but what is it a "title nation" who is less in quantity than anyone else?
And we do have same political correctness problems as you do. Talking heads on TV are not allowed to say "Russian" (russky). They can only say another "Russian" - rossijsky - which means belonging to the citizen of Russia, not russky by nationality.
All our presidents address the nation like "dear rossiyane" (citizents of Russia)
not anymore "dear Russians".
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Named-Erion @ #226
I think you misunderstand me but there again, I may misunderstand you so forgive me if I run through this concept that I find so very easy.
From what you propose it would seem that anyone who lives in England is entitled to call themselves English but there is a perverseness to that idea.
What happens if I go live in Spain. Do I become Spanish? If I go to live in France to I become French?
Heaven help Scotland if I were to travel north of Berwick-upon-Tweed and suddenly become Scottish!
Whatever my ethnicity, if I am born in England I am only entitled to say that I was born in England. However, being born in England does not make me "English".
Being "English" is an ethnic trait, a set of values, a sense of belonging to England with a shared history of England stretching back hundreds of years to which our grandfathers and their grandfathers and the forebears and all their wives contributed their toil, efforts and lives.
The "English" are those people who have some claim to a past that stretches back in time before mass immigration and to the time of when England was a single nation existing separately from Scotland and further back in time if records could be found. The "English" are those people who could ethnically claim some descendancy from the Angles, Saxons, Normans, Britons and the Vikings and other tribes and peoples who have dwelt in the lands of the "Angles" at some time or another.
The relative newcomers can no more pretend to be "English" than I could pretend to be a "Pakistani" or an "Indian" if I was a child of the Raj English and still living in Pakistan or India.
Anyone who lives in the UK through naturalisation or birth is entitled to a European Passport issued on behalf of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
I guess that makes me a European.
It makes anyone else living in the UK and entitled to a UK passport, European.
It might also make me and them British but even that is arguable as the passport of today is no longer a British Passport per se.
The passport cetainly does not use the labels of English, Scottish or Welsh.
What the passport definitely does not do is give an immigrant or the offspring of immigrants the same depth and length of heritage as me with a family tree that I can trace back to the days of King Charles I when Africa had not yet been explored and before the Indian sub-Continent had even begun to be exploited. It is that history and heritage that makes me "English".
The descendant of the current inhabitants of England may be able to claim some kind of right to being "English" in 400 or 500 years time - that I do not know about and really do not care to try and imagine. The world, if it still exists, will be vastly different from today and that is for sure.
You invite me to hypothesise about England being a separate country after full devolution of powers form Westminster to Edinburgh and Cardiff and the label that natives will use to define themselves by.
How about them being Europeans? Oh, there is a thing - not much change there is there?
This idea of devolution of the United Kingdom is some way, way off from now and by that time (probably by the time I have been well and truly been cremated and my ashes disposed of), and almost despite the wishes of the home nations to split politically, we will also be merging in ever closer union as Europeans under the banner of a European Union of some sort of framework or another.
When that happens, the 20th century Immigrants to the UK of GB and NI may still be born in England but their passport will still say European Passport but their ethnic roots will still not be deep enought to claim any connection with that of being "English".
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I agree with no. 12 regarding the prohibition of other languages. I was pulled up on this for using a brief Latin tag, and the logic of this policy is that one could not even quote the Royal Assent, by which Bills become Law, as that is, of course, in Norman French.
There is a connection between the desperately poor use of English by native speakers and the disdain for foreign language learning. Open borders and closed minds.
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@Buzet23 (212)
I'm only trying to call your attention to the general subject of this blog. Look to the number of the actual participants of this thread! If you are constanly speaking about yourself, and only positively, this can produce something unexpected. Look to the reaction when I say: hipocrisy. Each of many nations, we are so amused to talk about, has negative traits as well, and a great nation is the one able to withstand being aware of them. This is how I spot English.
@Menedemus (216)
And you, my special friend, do not fit even in your own fairy-tails. Stop twisting others people words! It is you who "wants" non-democratic Europe, an Europe with plenty of room for your rants. You shall not allow the others vomit in what you are saying, you shall exterminate, etc. How high is your threshold of tolerance?
You are of English origin, a saviour of English culture. Give me a break! Your own history is unkwown to you. From whom had the original inhabitants of Britain, British, escaped in the past, following withdrawal of the Roman army? Any idea who and where they are?
There were always some barbarians, throughout the history, who would become later civilised, raise borders, not allow the poor souls entering their world, saving, allegedly, the civilisation. Weren't the barbarians, Angles, Saxon, Jutes, the core of today's civilised Englishmen?
But you don't care, of course. You care just about your waterfalls of faded eloquence. Please save us, in the name of those who admire English culture, of yours saving it and of your's hipocrisy!
@trenodio (218)
Thank you for your fabulous exposition of the forms of culture in which resides yours proven supremacy. There is only a small shadow, namely your quoting Brahms, suggesting something like inferiority complex in one of the fields.
There is no need for modesty in saying the English culture has given some of the greatest composers, conductors and orchestras of our time. Have you ever listen the music of Elgar, Holst? I could recommend you an extraordinary BBC-documentary on modern English composers, made by -- also extraordinary personality and director -- Ken Russel.
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Funny how this post would probably be censored for not adhering to the BBC regulations.
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#231, Bonybbony,
You say "Each of many nations, we are so amused to talk about, has negative traits as well, and a great nation is the one able to withstand being aware of them. This is how I spot English." and you also mention the word hypocrisy. It has long been my opinion that there is no such place as paradise, either in reality or religion, every place I have lived has always had positives and negatives either locally or countrywide, and I try to live where the positives outweigh the negatives. It's a great shame if you don't like us talking about our views and experiences because that merely blinkers your understanding of others opinions. Even the French are beginning to poke fun at themselves these days as the French TV often has highly critical programmes about the French working mentality and especially Sarkozy.
I have already expressed my distaste for the hypocrisy of politically correct opinions whereby it is seemingly unacceptable to these PC people for me to say I am English and ethnically English, but ok for say a West Indian to say they're English and ethnically West Indian. Likewise it is hypocrisy that I see shops throughout my old area in South London that either have the name Black (something) or which advertise Black music, and that should a White Caucasian try to call their shop White (something) or advertise white music there would be a posse of council thought police after them charging them with racism.
As for talking about ourselves, I do not feel ashamed to call myself English as the PC brigade would like us to feel, citing various bad things that happened during the colonial years. In fact there are more positive things that we gave to the world than negative things, indeed many of today's countries still benefit from the infrastructure and logistics that colonial England put in place years back, as logistics was one the the greatest achievements of the English in being able to manage such a large empire for so long.
PS. you mention barbarians in your comment, but I've never heard that the Anglo's Saxons or Jutes were considered to be barbarians, our history books talk about the Ancient Briton (Celtic) barbarians that got pushed Northwards and the organisation of such a mass migration from Northern Germany and Scandinavia is hardly the act of barbarians or savages.
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Once upon a time, someone said "there will always be an England." (words and music: Parker and Charles) If they were around today, I wonder if they'd be so sure.
Looks to me like "this blessed plot" has become "this plessed blot."
Well there may always be an England but will there always be anyone or anything recoginzably English in it. Perhaps we in America should create a museum where artifacts of its culture can be displayed for future generations to study when it becomes extinct.
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I think bonybbony tries to make the point that it's healthy to speak not only about what is marvellous ab the English, but ab "negative traits as well". Only the way he made this point he quarreled with the rest.
Or maybe simply now the mood is no one is especially willing to discuss "negative traits", like, there are times one wants to be self-critical, and times when one is simply content, and enjoys life in the company of like-minded individuals, in tune.
Oh ab tunes. I heard of the Elgar bonybbony writes about, but haven't heard!There was an article this summer in St. petersburg about your "proms", and that someone Nigel Kennedy played Elgar's violin concerto in the Royal Albert Hall very very well. And that Nigel Kennedy is loved by the public very much. Of Finzi I never heard. I know the classic English composer is Vaugham Williams, vey pleasant, and that's about all I know.
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Buzet23,
this political correctness you mentioned is a plague, and a very catching disease, I mean even we in Russia suspicious so much ab "democracy" and all associated with it managed to catch it somehow! My prev letter ab it was swalled by the moderators, I'll try again in softer expressions. To give you an example talking heads on Rus TV are not allowed to say "russky" anymore, as it is nationality, only "rossijsky" - meaning - citizen of Russan Federation - incl. all whoever it happens to be. Same with newspapers. Interestingly it co-insides with the rapid decline in population overall. While Putin takes measures like "10 thousand dollars to every woman who agrees to have a second child" (now raised to 15, by the new law), but the call is answered only by, how to say, various
"citizens of Russia", gladly increasing the output to 10 children instead of their standard 5-8. The politically incorrect ones reply our prime minister "for 15 thousand dollars - do it yourself!" and "this country is not for living." Women by far and large are in a kind of a natural uprising to the government - "write whatever you like", explain how good and excellent new Russia is, we know what it takes to give a birth to a healthy child here and to survive after. With the medical service, with the laws that a woman can't keep her job, with the inflation 80% per year, with the state subsidy for the unemployed mum with a baby of 15 dollars per month. Even one child reduces you to the beggar status at once, and leaves a woman at a total mercy of the husband. If there is one. If he works. Max - one child. Top of desires.
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Gheryando @ 232
I am sorry to say I do not understand what you mean?
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MarcusAurelius the 2nd, is it USA by the way who invented this political correctness or England? Who is the author?
(re your mail 234 as the things developing, you might have to create a Rus. artefacts museum in the USA as well. To remind future generations there did exist such crazy russky-s, with the motto "unlimited".
In space, emotions and love for any tsar it happens to rule them. Until the latter brought them to the conditions in which they couldn't even multiply anylonger. So start collecting balalaikas and samples of black Russian humour.)
Seriously I think there is something strategically wrong with this notion of "tolerance", that it is put the top of desires. Like ironia wrote ab being closed to foreign languages, and threnodio "English culture does not and neither should it exist in isolation. Neither does the Italian or French or Spanish tradition. They are all interwoven into a tapestry that is primarily though nt exclusively European."
"Tolerance" is the opposite to that "interwoven tapestry", strange as it looks from the first sight.
Tolerance means you are tolerant to aliens, display no aggressive deeds or words towards them - though you want to! Therefore you "tolerate". (If you are in agreement and accord - nothing to tolerate.) This keeps an individual in constant state of stress. Bad for the immune system and psycho-something! Besides, tolerance has limits. You are tolerant, tolerant, tolerant until you simply can't hold anymore! Bang! All accumulated breaks through. Imagine if in a family the motto will be family members are to be tolerant to each other. Hardly a healthy atmosphere in such a family. A husband barely tolerates his wife, mum hardly tolerates her children, children are reminded they are to tolerate their grandma, etc. Disaster.
Something else should be the focus in inter-ethnic relations, but not that over-inflated "tolerance". Don't know what but something closer to that "cultural tapestry" mentioned by threnodio.
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Re. Comment #231
And all this because I choose to call myself an Englishman rather than be designated British by passport. How stupid can this get!
I do not recall ever saying that I want a non-democratic Europe. I do not recall ever using the word exterminate either - yet you say I should stop twisting others people words!
#231 is pure "Cant in a Rant" and you do make me laugh bonybonny!
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Ninotchka
Who invented political correctness? The American far left. They have never apologized for being dead wrong about the USSR and Communism. They never even acknowledged it. They have taken over the colleges and universities trying to condition people's minds to their demented ways. Nobody can speak on campuses openly against them and their theories or they will be shouted down. The University administrators do nothing, they are afraid of them. They like many Europeans are furious at the US government for destroying the USSR. Their headquarters among other places is at Columbia University in New York City. It is a haven for Communists. My mother went there. I think for awhile she was a communist. My father was a socialist. They were furious at my poltical views....kill all communists, socialists, and fascists, they are a cancer on humanity and do not deserve to live. It didn't sit well with them at all. We never discussed politics in my house.
I know Russia was invaded countless times in the last thousand years. That is why it is obsessed with the desire for military power and control over territories beyond its borders. Fear and lust for power. A ferocious image. America plays it for a fool. View the Russian military movie in Andrey1234's posting in Crisis Over #225. Russia is spending vast sums on new military weaopns to destroy America. Why when the old ones will do the job just fine. Every Ruble spent on it is one less for sending people to school to learn a trade or profession, to start a business, to build a house, to build and staff a hospital or factory. The more money Russia spends on its military the weaker it gets. Who will invade it? Nobody, not when it has 12,000 nuclear weapons. China or America could be wiped out by Russia in an hour or two. Besides, if it were invaded, the invaders would have to feed them. It's costing enough to feed 26 million Iraqis, who'd want to feed 150 million Russians?
BBC said in a recent report, for every 1 million births in Russia, 2 million die. The more they waste on the military, the poorer they get and the more vodka they drink, and the faster they die. I was surprised the Afghanis didn't drop ship cases of vodka to the Russian soldiers before they attacked. In an hour or two they would have been in no condition to put up any resistance at all. They drank the antifreeze out of the radiators in the military trucks and jeeps.
Men don't tolerate women, women don't tolerate friends, parents and children don't tolerate each other, nobody tolerates their neighbors. Who would tolerate someone blasting their stereo with loud rock music at 3AM or leaving trash in their yard that looks and smells bad not to mention attracts rats. Then why should countries tolerate each other? Only because they make money from it. How many of China's 3 trillion dollar GDP belongs to foreign companies who invested there? Does anyone actually believe they did it themselves? If they nationize those companies, they will lose access to what made them. Russia has nationalized property that belonged to BP and Shell. Who in his right mind would invest money there? They have written that off as a loss and won't make that mistake again anytime soon. Venezuela and Bolivia are making the same mistake.
Will the US fight world war III over 2 provinces in Georgia? Of course not. But it will provoke Russia to spend billions on arms with rhetoric and its own threatening moves. It will play the same game it used to win the cold war, an arms race. What do you call a chess player who plays the same losing gambit twice in a row? It's not really about arms at all, it's about money. Andrey's movie says 41% of the Russian military are Muslims. How many of them will fight on the other side when the US provokes Central Asian former Soviet Republics that are largely Moslem to arm themselves and serve as American military bases against "terrorists?" That's another gambit Russia lost.
Cuba and North Korea are the living museums of Communism. It's all that's left. Even Vietnam sees the folly of it. Too bad it didn't see it 45 years ago, it would be much richer today and there would have been no war.
The Russian stock market is closed. When will it reopen? It can't stay closed forever. What will happen when it does. America has far more problems on its hands than to worry about Russia anymore. Ten years ago, it bailed Russia out of a financial crisis. That' won't happen again. Next time, Russia will be allowed to go bankrupt. America went bankrupt a long time ago. How nice that it can print all the new money it wants to.
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#231 - bonybbony
Please do not talk down to me. I do have some knowledge of the music to which you refer.
In some ways, Ken Russell epitomises what I am saying about no one culture being pre-eminent or existing in isolation. His sources of reference are as international and varied as you could imagine. I presume you are referring to his early BBC film about Elgar which was one of a series he made for TV before moving on to cinema. On one thing we can agree - he is an extraordinary personality. What a shame there is no way of exchanging personal info on this blog. I could give him your regards next time I see him.
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#234 - MarcusAureliusII
"Perhaps we in America should create a museum where artifacts of its (English) culture can be displayed for future generations to study".
You already did. It's called the United States.
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threnodio
Some of America's early culture came from Britain. Colonial Williamsburg is a living museum of that time. If you are in Virginia, it's worth a visit. But America had many other early influences as well, Dutch, French, Spanish and of course Native American. Once the Revolution came, the two societies began to diverge sharply. We look back on it with historic interest only. Except for arcane references to English common law which found its way into our own laws, little of what was once English influence has survived. We still refer to some of our architecture as "colonial." That includes my own house. In fact, America was born out of a revulsion for everything English and European. Interesting about Washington Irving's story Rip Van Winkle. He fell asleep after playing nine pins and drinking whiskey with leprichauns in the Catskills before the Revolution and woke up 20 years later as an old man after it. What a reaction he got when he said he was a loyal subject of the King. I don't think the British understand what a break the Revolution was. For the most part, the culture of the United States is not that inherited from Britain no matter what they'd like to think. We are no you.
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#243 - MarcusAureliusII
Of course I understand that Marcus. It is just that when you are on good form such as recently on Peston's Picks, I enjoy your postings and agree very often then suddenly you come up with a load of nonsense about the demise of Britain and Europe which you seem to relish so much and I just cannot resist it. Sometimes I wonder if it is the same person.
Why don't we call a truce? I admire and respect your country although there are things which are less than admirable as you are the first to admit. Afford us the same respect with the same reservations and then we can have a meaningful dialogue. You may be surprised how much we have in common.
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M'arkushka,
this is your Ninok. (Ivetta, Lizetta, Muzetta, Janetta, Georgetta)
No, I didn't forget to reply to your letter 220. Was busy explaining Putin he shouldn't step on the same garden rakes, go into the second round of armament against USA. Told him - Look here! Mark thinks we'll end up bankrupt - again! Putin promised to think about it.
But the army is very jealous about American and Israeli and German and what not things they found in Georgia. They had 2nd ww time tanks, and same boring Kalashnikovs.
Meanwhile some unknown little bird gave Georgians money, and they bought a lot of stuff. Mamma mia! said Russian generals looking at the catch. The high-tech ununderstandable things. Laser gun. Mobile hush portable stations, devices to shoot at the mobile signal, "initiators" of switched-off mobile phones, and surveillance systems, and uniforms blending into the environment, changing colours, things Russian army didn't even know exist.
Now they want it all, and more, more of it!
Like, "Doctor, I am very greedy. Give me a medication, a tablet from greed. And a big, big one!"
So next time your president is about to finance Russian neighbours, please slip a word for me as well. Say - Mister president!
I know a certain Ninok over there, well, she will live in very short rations, as sure as day-light. Should we wish to add more Rus neigbours to the NATO list - her portions will be decreased to bread crumbs and water.
Simply leave that Russia alone for a while. See, how patient the Chinese are, not in a hurry. Spotted a nice trend in the Russian society - and wait, afraid to interfere, to disbalance the fortunate development. These know all territories behind the Urals will simply fall down into their hands, like a ripe apple. Without a single shot and military spend. Now 5.7 million people live there. How many will be left over in 20 years?
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Go to see a football match in Poland and see hundreds of cops, water canons and a howling mob. Many of them went to live and work in the UK, seems they're liked alot for their politeness and hard work. The same bunch drive like lunatics in Poland but amazing how good drivers they become when they get to Germany. But then the German cops know how to deal with em. Horses for courses as they say.
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Poor Ninotchka. Only bread and water to eat. I will take out my special violin which only can play sad songs. Strange but this violin cannot play anything else. And I have a special handkerchief I use for crying into, nothing else. No tea with honey. No blini. No kasha, no Beluga caviar with eggs, no peppermint vodka, not even borscht. Just stale bread and water. And all because Vlad and his friends have to have their toys. Tell me your address and I will send you a can of Campbell's soup. Do you prefer chicken noodle or tomato? Yes and things are so bad now in Russia, they even forgot how to make babies. These are indeed tough times.
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We never mentioned gardens apart from my link to Jasper Carrot and his mole digging up his lawn.
I see this wherever I go, the English generally speaking love their lawns and gardens. They will be out rain or shine nipping this bud, cutting that shoot, shaping that hedge and their lawns have to be as immaculate as can be - manicured by hand if that were possible.
Now I accept that not everyone is that lucky that they own a garden or lawn but even in the concrete jungles of the English Cities you will see window boxes and floral displays that take great loving care to have cultivated and grown.
It is not even necessarily a hobby of the elderly English, even the young family houses will have lovely gardens for their children to play in.
And the British will travel miles to queue up and walk around the very large ornamental gardens that exist in abundance thoughout England. Designed years ago these huge Gardens are maintained in immaculate condition at great expense but they are never short of visitors.
Is this hobby and interest unique to the English - I don't know - but gardening sure is a very typical hobby and interest of the English in England and when abroad.
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@Buzet23 (233)
Your books of history seem have been originated from the bookshelfs of Richard Wagner and Prince Ludwig of Bavaria. You would certainly not pass the exam in the schools which underline Charles Darwin and many other rational and brilliant minds. Even in the fiction, like the Ripley Scott's or Arthur Mann's movies, it is an undeniable fact, that german tribes were not simply innocent and piecefull settlers.
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For Alice and Marcus. I have been reading your opinions over the past hour and felt as though i should comment.
From an Englishman(On a British passport) who lives on the eastern side of the Urals. I agree with your sentiment Alice maybe western powers should wait and be patient as the Chinese they may get more than if they try to intimidate and cajole in politics. I may have the wrong person here but was it not Alexander the great who said theres more than one way to conquer a country.
As far as your comments regarding the welfare system for young russian mothers it is sad, but to draw a comparison with the UK the welfare and benefit system helps single mothers more than people who live in sin and definatly more than people who are married and have children. Because of this we have a huge amount of teenage women who have children at a very early age which is leading to the demise of the nuclear family and the social problems that stem from that. That is not me saying `the man should look after the woman and children and they should stay at home` it is just to show the opposite of what is happening here. We have a certain amount of young women in the UK who all they want is to finish school have babies and live for free.
As far as English and British people here, there are not many in the city i live in, but sometimes i go to a bar where they congregate (They tend to not like to integrate) most of these people are there to sleazily chat up russian women and if honestly i prefer not to be associated with them because i dont appreciate how they act towards the russian people in general. I do not look very russian (If that is possible) but i have been mistaken for a native russian by one of these expats and spoken to and treated very rudely, that is until they heard my voice being very rude in return. In these situations i am embarrased for my country.
My job here though depends on me being English, my English mannersims, my language, my English soul but away from work i try if not badly to speak the language and integrate.
And finally the reason why i live here, and the only reason is because the person who i love cannot get even a visitor visa to come to the UK to meet my parents, she satisfies all the written requirements, but she fell into the 5% that they automaticaly refuse without even reading the application (Which is illegal i think). I dont want to live in a country, pay taxes in a country, that does not respect me as a person.
Also to comment on the overstayers issue, the gov. here makes me register where i live, if i change city or address i have to re register within 3 days or risk deportation, why cant the UK adopt this system? they have the capability. The visa the UK usually gives out is a 6 month multiple entry visa, this is for tourist applications. If they changes the visa to a 1 month single entry they may be able to control immigration with more effect.
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@Menedemus (248)
It was Claude Lorrain, a Frenchman, which dreams of beauty of nature has been copied into English gardens for centuries.
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Ah of course the French invented Gradens because the were none at Babylon were there.
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I think all Menedemus meant was that it was common for the English to enjoy gardening. he wasn't claiming ownership of it (for the English) as an original idea.
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@WhiteEnglishProud (253)
Yes, I know. I just want to stop the flood, before is too late.
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@trenodio (241)
Please don't mention to Mr Russel that you know me. I want to stay in good relation with him. (Oh, your just know his twin?)
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WEP @243
I would love to claim that the English invented gardening but it was the Romans in AD43 with the Claudian Invasion of Britain who appear to have introduced ornamental gardens to the English.
The Palace of Fishbourne near Chichester on the south coast was a Villa owned by an ancient Briton Lord or very senior Brito of some authority who had a palace that is 4 times the size of Buckingham Palace of today and which has been archaeologically exposed to show that it had magnificent ornamental garden with hedges, lawns and flower beds. Other Roman villas that have been discovered in Britain are smaller but also seem to have been centers for cultivated gardens.
Where the Romans got the idea of gardens from I would not dare to say?
Possibly, through Greece via Alexander (Iskandar) and his conquest of Persia and his jouney through the Sawat and Indus Valleys? Maybe so and maybe gardens were an idea that came from China along the Silk Routes.
What I do know is that today, gardening and the cultivation of allotments is something that is ingrained into the fabric of the English psyche.
We would never buy a house without a garden unless we were forced to do so by circumstances at the time and the English take such a pride in their gardens and spend so much money at the Garden Centers that it is a thriving business to own even in times of hardship and when cash is more tight.
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@White EnglishProud (252)
By the way, Claude Lorrain was a painter, actualy Italianized Frenchman. Every rich house in England is in possession of his painting. When you look to English garden you spot the Frenchman.
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I regret my comments can we step away from Gardening and discuss something else.
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How did gardening suddenly become relevant? It seems to be one of the few creative pastimes which more or less universal - climate and water availability permitting.
Amen to #258 - WhiteEnglishProud.
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255 - bonybbony
One of our quainter English habits is to avoid name-dropping but, since you insist, yes I do know him slightly, no he does not have a twin brother and I promise not to mention you - for entirely selfish reasons.
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Seeing as we seem to have reached a bit of a dead-end I would like to canvus views about electoral reform in England.
There are several issues which i have cause for concern.
Firstly i believe that the 'First past the post' or 'electoral collage' system of election inhibits a true democratic process, disenfranchising nearly half the electorite who bother to vote. Meaning UK governments usually get elected with support from just 25% of the overal population.
I believe Appathy toward voting in England has two major causes firstly a large number of people know that no matter who they vote for there vote wonn't make a difference in there local area. The second reason is due to a lack of real choice, because there are only two parties who have any prospect of being in Government and both are a joke(in my opinion)
Both these reasons could be removed via a change to Proportional representation. Which would give mean everybodies vote counts and there would be more diversity in Government. Parties would have to work together in Government ensuring that the peoples will is done, rather than having carte-blanche authority for 4-5 years at a time. An elected dictator is not a democracy.
My second point is the strange situation we have where Scottish M.P's can vote on English only legistlation. When did we become Third of Fourth clas citizens in our own country when will we begin to fight back.
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I am an Englishmen living in Slovenia. I was here for years before Easyjet started dumping Englishmen here in 2005. My Englishness had been an asset up to this point. it had a kind of exotic appeal to the girls (I know - Exotic? English? but trust me).
Being English instantly became my worst liability. Now they loathe the English here with a passion. Slovenians consider us arrogant, loud, rude, obnoxious, stupid, and incapable of self control. No pretty girl will go to a bar where it is likely that she will meet Englishmen. This is because the Englishmen will overtly ogle her, make rude gestures to her, make animal noises to each other whilst leering at her, and then will probably show her their small penises when they get even drunker. She has no such problems with the Scots, Irish, Welsh, or native English speakers from anywhere else in the world. Or in fact anyone else from anywhere.
Slovenian guys will just check her out discretely and be polite and respectful to her.
No wonder we are so ugly. No attractive and self respecting foreign girl will go anywhere near us. I do ok, but that is because I behave like a Slovene. I am polite and respectful. Maybe we should all try that. We could improve our gene pool (at the cost of polluting theirs).
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#258 - WhiteEnglishProud
This debate went on for some time on Nick Robinson's blog. As I recall, you took some part.
I entirely agree that PR would greatly improve the democratic accountability of an elected government and I am thoroughly in favour but I think we also have to address the constitutional arrangements which leave England as the only nation which does not have its own representative assembly. I do not think it is good enough to revisit the West Lothian question in search of another fudge.
I now favour root and branch reform leading to a federal system with foreign, defence, macro-economic and some reserved areas such as strategic planning for energy provision at Westminster and everything else devolved to national assemblies including one for England. These would all be elected by PR including Westminster.
However, this all takes on the character of navel gazing unless we also look at the future relationship between Britain and the EU since you clearly could not have regional variations of these arrangements. Widening the debate will also make it relevant to Mark's blog as it otherwise belongs on a UK domestic thread.
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#261 - JanezRobusten
As an Englishman living in Hungary, can I please appeal to you to stop knocking the English abroad. You are not doing us any favours. All it would take would be word of your post to spread here and the supply of women casting themselves at my feet would dry up instantly. A little solidarity please.
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Threnodio
I agree that the issue does need to be widened to the EU as well however I'm someone who believes you should get your own house in order before critsing other people. So until England Britain the Uk whatever sorts out its problems then the Issue of EU reform is secondary.
In fact it would seem pointless at this starge to further tie ourselfs to Europe when we have such a mess at home.
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@ the world in general
wonders quietly how anyone could still feel restrained by the so-called
"PC-brigade"in 2008 .For goodness sake let it all hang out, everyone else is....
...they have been for the past decade, you missed the bandwagen.
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As far as I am aware most European Countries use a PR system. Is First Past the Post considered undemocratic in other European Countries?
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#263 - threnodio
Point taken mate, and will do! ;-)
I will keep my fingers crossed that our countrymen will stay away from Budapest, but be warned - they are going to eastern European countries in greater numbers because they can get drunker cheaper...
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#249, Bonybboby,
That's pure waffle, you say "it is an undeniable fact, that german tribes were not simply innocent and piecefull settlers." firstly it's German and not german, secondly it's peaceful and not piecefull. What books did you use at school as they were obviously not so accurate. Furthermore, when it comes to history there is no such thing as undeniable fact, it is merely an account from one or more persons that reflects their impressions of something. For every 'true' history there will be an equally 'true' and opposite history, at least from the point of view of the writers. Just look at the Socialist led politically correct rewriting of history for evidence of that as that's been happening for a long time now in England.
Consequently, while the Germanic tribes that somehow managed to organise the logistics of such a large scale migration may or may not be not so innocent in how they dealt with the Ancient Britons, they were most certainly not the barbarian hoards as you suggested. Dear friendly old Vlad the impaler is much more the barbarian type. In any case it is hard to find the ruling peoples of any country anywhere in the world that has not been untoward towards the indigenous population as throughout history tribes have risen, replaced and conquered throughout the world, or do you consider every ruling peoples to be barbarians or ex-barbarians?.
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#267 - JanezRobusten
We get plenty of those. The locals just liberate their money then the police come by and liberate their liberty. They spend most of the next day trying to figure out whether it was a baton of the booze that did their heads in. Fortunately, our local friends don't blame the resident Brits for the visiting yob element.
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The gardening Menedemus brought in was a good point, taking into account the topic we are on. in? off. on.
I've also noted that the letters I receive from England start or end with weather and mention conditions in the garden of today, either it's a rainy day you you can't work on the garden, or something happens with the gravel, or it's about leaves, it's a thread that goes through all talk other.
In here we have a mental split ab gardens, like the English one is supposed to be wild and looking natural, and the French is supposed to be geometrical and clearly cut off where is what. So Russian tsars in the past ordering gardens around palaces simply stated - do me a French one, or - do me an English one. Like, Catherine Palace here has a French one, bright geometrical flower beds of most complex colours and designs. And Paul's (Pavlovsk) suburb here has an English one - vast grounds good for hunting, rivers and hills, and all blends one into another every turn of the lane. (At that it was very expensive to make hills, and add additional "rivers" but the English gardener who had the job insisted hills will look very "natural", and rivers will look better if they turn this way, not that way, and bridges will look more natural not where people need to cross but at the background of this grove and that meadow, etc. )
Indeed now looks like as if it was always like that, squirrels and oaks and simple simple meadows (to which every herb was exported from overseas).
But sorry I see the gardening is done over with here. Till next spring. ________________
oj a real Englishman behind the Ural mountains!!!!
For love.
And I said earlier all are "lawyers and financiers".
!
Very sorry.
I can't even collect my thoughts how to help, I think it was most likely bad luck that you've tried Moscow embassy?
Or one British consulate unknown to me behind the Urals?
And now of course it doesn't matter where to try, because if one of these refused once - all of them keep records of it and will refuse after!!!
St. Petersburg one is really good. I honestly think they have a plan for money making from visas or something. Maybe less financed than the Moscow embassy and have to make ends meet. Or it is there is one influential financier there among the staff, who doesn't forget to remind his colleagues not to be so choosy, after all all Russians are approx. alike, and sell visas as much as possible. I don't know anyone who was turned down by them. And indeed you ask there for a 1 month visa - at least this was the case before, I haven't travelled 3 years - and they say - no, take a multiple, and you say - I don't want multiple - only 3 days I need - and they say - oh, what if you change your mind later, and you will have then visa ready. Because for the multiple they charge much more. May be now simply all are multiples, to cut short negotiations with greedy Russians.
An excellent consulate, when we had football this summer suddenly in Britain and all St.Petersburg needed visas at once, they began working 24 hrs, the consul put on a Zenith white and blue team scarf, went on local TV and said he will see to it that all 4000 ticket holders people will get visas in 4 days. I think the Zenith Club will build him a monument one of these days, he immediately became the most favourite Englishman in the world. And even that he was brazenly robbed in a car this summer in the street, he didn't loose good cheer, and said he is a converted St.Petersburger and all, rob him every other day, he simply likes it here the hell and full stop.
Better record than St.Petersburg British consulate has only Irish embassy in Moscow. There it is total fairy-tale. No small windows to shove papers through. No line for hours outdoors. Door open!!!! Simply - stands open!!!! When I first saw it, I turned around, thought they are under restoration or closed or something happened to them.
An embassy can't be with a wide open door!
It ought to have a gloomy line outside since sunrise, and lots of security with guns!
And there in the Irish one it is hilarious. You sit at a low table! they bring you coffee! and the consul or something himself wanders around the tables, asks "can I help?" and helps filling in tons of needy papers.
Irish embassy in Moscow I highly recommend you.
Maybe if you can't get home with your love even for a brief visit to England, you can instead go somehow to Ireland?
if this can help in any way....
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The article regarded spotting English but the majority of the comments appear to infer that English equates to British. It doesn't.
British includes Welsh, Irish and Scots. Please do not insult these Welsh, Irish and Scots by comparing us to the English.
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To threnodio and WhiteEnglishProud,
With regard to PR I've commented on this quite a bit as I listened to the Electoral Reform Society many times in the early 70's and was quite tempted by their arguments. However since living in Belgium which has a strong PR system I very much prefer the old 'first past the post' system as there is nothing worse for change than a moribund hung government. With PR it is very much already worked out as to what the next government will be as the heads of the multiple lists never change, and since there has always to be a coalition of party's it means the problems rarely get resolved.
Take a look at what is happening in Belgium at the moment as it is nearing a political disaster, the federal governments are at each others throats (Flanders against Wallon and Brussels). It is rare that a day passes when there is not more crisis meetings, insults, threats and proposals being rejected. A large part of the problems are due to the various political and ethnic differences between the large number of political party's that PR has given power to. Therefore, sorry, I have to say that I'm not at all in favour of PR these days as it seems to create far more problems than it resolves.
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IMO, the Japanese are the best gardeners in the world. While others are preoccupied with color and geometry, Japanese work to make the most of what land they have to create a quiet place to be alone and contemplate in an overcrowded co