Feeling the heat
Foreign ministers strolled in the late summer heat of southern France towards their meeting, passing the impressive palace of pale stone where once popes ruled and were imprisoned as part of a power struggle over the future of Europe.
Now, the rulers of Europe - or at least some of them - are meeting to discuss a struggle over its most eastern boundaries: the Georgia crisis.
From the outside, the massive, gothic Palace of the Popes is built as a fortress, not the residence of a ruler with the luxury of peaceful times. The French could hardly have chosen a more impressive venue in the heart of old Avignon for the meeting of European Union foreign ministers.
On his way into the Petit Palais, where the meeting is actually taking place, I asked the British foreign secretary if he saw any sign at all that the Russians were taking notice of the stern noises that emanated from the summit in Brussels at the beginning of the week.
He said: "President Sarkozy has an important job in Moscow on Monday to deliver a very clear and united, firm message that the European Union, all 27 countries, are determined to see Russia live up to the agreement it has made in respect of the six-point peace plan.
"And also to pass on the universal European condemnation of the recognition of the breakaway republics, which for every European leader was the straw that broke the camel's back."
In EU jargon this meeting is a "Gymnich", named after the German castle where the first one took place. It's an informal meeting, which means it can't issue conclusions. But in reality it's likely they will decide whether to go along with the plan of the German foreign minister to launch an investigation into the beginning of the war.
Mr Miliband was not against this. "It is important to make sure false stories about the origins of the crisis do not become holy writ... but equally that serious allegations are followed through."
They will also look at the plan to send EU monitors to report on the ceasefire. This, of course, may be difficult without Russian approval but the veteran Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bilt was dismissive: "The Russian position is 'What is ours is ours, what we have taken is ours, the rest we can negotiate about'. That's classic, it's been so for a couple of hundred years. We will deploy our mission to Georgia without asking for permission".
Many others may not be so tough, although ministers have had an additional chance to have talks about talks: they arrived together from Paris on a special high-speed train, painted in the European Union colours.
The French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner was particularly excited about this, taking a few foreign minister friends to the station especially early to examine this new toy.
We won't know the result of this meeting until later, or perhaps tomorrow. But I am glad to report that we the media are based in the Pope's Palace, in a very grand high-ceilinged room where a papal tribunal used to meet. Appropriately enough, there was no appeal against this judgement. I will pass sentence later.
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~10~RS~)
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Its good to see that the EU is acting as one on the Russia/Georgia conflict, as long as the "pro-Russian" lobby led by Italy does not break ranks! However, the best news is what is happening spontaneously in the international economy : loss of confidence in Russia which has wiped out over 30% of the Russian stock market's value in less than a month with the withdrawal of foreign investors. Add to that a hoped for long-term EU decision to de-couple by law energy production from transportation (by pipeline) and distribution, thereby blocking a supply monopoly by Gazprom and others, and Russia's threatening behaviour and associated imperial ambitions will be self-defeating.
Avignon's Papal Palace was the "Babylonian captivity" of the 14th century, representative of the total corruption of absolute power. Moscow often called itself (and still does) "the third Rome", forgetting perhaps that the two previous "Romes" both collapsed as absolute authoritarian empires. The USSR already has, the question is whether current Russian attempts to resusitate their empire will also be confined "to the dustbin of history". I hope so!
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"Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bilt was dismissive: "The Russian position is 'What is ours is ours, what we have taken is ours, the rest we can negotiate about'. That's classic, it's been so for a couple of hundred years. We will deploy our mission to Georgia without asking for permission""
And three hundred years ago it was the swedish position. A new period of the swedish imperialism?
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fragility at #2
Unless the Russians do allow the EU Monitors to visit South Ossetia and Abkhazia, the EU will never know the full truth of how the Russia-Georgia Conflict started and whether the Casus Belli used by the Russians for their invasion was justified.
Calling the more recent Swedish reputation for fairness into question is neither helpful nor is Russian obstuction going to progress the German plan for "investigating the causes of the war" very far.
I am sure EU will all be better informed and the far more friendly towards Russia if we ALL understood the sequence of events leading up to the 8th August 2008 and we understood the actual casualty figures and whether ther has been any ethnic cleansing by either the Georgians or their opponents.
At this time South Ossetia and Abkhazia remain part of Georgian Territory thus the EU, with Georgian permission, has every right to visit those enclaves to investigate the conflict and outcomes.
Of course, Russia could annexe the enclaves to prevent the EU Monitors and Investigators access to the enclaves but that would be very foolish and very, very aggressive an action and make matters far worse.
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David Miliband has the right skills. That's 27 words to say 'no'.
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Gah! 75 words, not 27. Comes of thinking about whether '27' is two words or one while typing at the same time.
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I see a repeat of the Kosovo example. Russians are doing to Georgia exactly what EU did to Serbia with Kosovo. Kosovo territory is rightfully Serbian. I think that EU states should review the history of Kosovo and the gradual immigration (and prolific procreation) of impoverished Albanians into the Kosovo region. This eventually led to imbalance in ethnic mix and the land grab by Kosovo Albanians sanctioned by the EU states. So, why is EU whining now?
This tumult, however, will blow over without major repercussions for the Russians. The West will, eventually, abandon Georgia as they abandoned Czechoslovakia in 1938 to Germany and, again, to Russians in 1968.
It is too risky to engage Russia militarily and Europe is too dependent on Russian energy supplies. Besides, there are too many western companies entangled in business ventures in their country. Any protracted stand-off with Russia would endanger western business interests. And we know where the West interests lie primarily. Certainly not in liberties of other unimportant countries.
Having said all the above. I do not agree what Russia did to Georgia, just as do not agree to what EU did to Serbia.
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Menedemus wrote #3:
"Unless the Russians do allow the EU Monitors to visit South Ossetia and Abkhazia, the EU will never know the full truth of how the Russia-Georgia Conflict started and whether the Casus Belli used by the Russians for their invasion was justified.
Calling the more recent Swedish reputation for fairness into question is neither helpful nor is Russian obstuction going to progress the German plan for "investigating the causes of the war" very far.
I am sure EU will all be better informed and the far more friendly towards Russia if we ALL understood the sequence of events leading up to the 8th August 2008 and we understood the actual casualty figures and whether ther has been any ethnic cleansing by either the Georgians or their opponents."
1. The commonly accepted venue for establishing facts is UN. In that respect, the opinion of EU on the events we discuss is hardly more important than that of other respected UN members like China, India or Brazil.
2. The recent statements of mr. Bildt provide some reasons to believe that the latter three countries are more impartial in this matter that Sweden.
3. I find it hard to understand why the proposed frienship with EU is more important for Russia than a similar friendship with the indicated three countries. Is the considerable agricultural import to Russia from EU a possible reason?
"At this time South Ossetia and Abkhazia remain part of Georgian Territory thus the EU, with Georgian permission, has every right to visit those enclaves to investigate the conflict and outcomes."
I entirely agree with you. According to the written law (UN treaty) this is indeed the case. On the same legal ground, Russia is entitled to send an investigating group to Kosovo with the permition from Serbia, whose territory Kosovo legally remains. In this context, I would appreciate your answer to the following formal question: shall we follow the written paragraphs of the UN treaty or we deal here with a precedental system of international law?
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Toothman1 wrote:
"The West will, eventually, abandon Georgia as they abandoned Czechoslovakia in 1938 to Germany"
It is remarkable that by making this comparison you implicitly repeat the nazi propaganda about the Czechs genocide of the sudetan germans. President Klaus has already expressed an outrage about such a comparison. It is an insult. The czechs did not use artillery to wipe out a city with its german population, and did not kill german soldiers.
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What does "Approporately" mean? Even though this might be a blog, I still expect to see factual as well as grammatical style and coherence. A simple double-glance before posting would suffice.
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The following jumped off the page: "the origions of the crisis", "Approporately enough",
"grand high-ceillinged" - how can we take the BBC seriously when a short piece contains so many glaring mistakes? This rather shallow gossipy piece about a very grave matter, with a spelling mistake in every other paragraph, is typical of the increasingly shoddy material posted on the BBC Website. Shame on the BBC, supposed to be a window on the UK, its institutions, the English language and a model of journalism. Instead it has become irritating and slipshod.
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Grammar aside, I think the Georgia-Russia crisis highlights the importance of a common EU foreign policy, as it is contemplated in the Lisbon Treaty.
I'm happy to see Europe is reacting with remarkable unity over this crisis, although it is inevitable different perspectives from each of the 27 EU countries.
It's also a good sign for the ever closer Union that some classical British eurosceptics in this blog are defending the need for UK to join the euro. Ten years ago analysts said the Sterling will enter the common currency when it will reach the same exchange. It seems this prophecy is on its way. But I still think it will be tory David Cameron who will do this move under the excuse "we don't like it but it was the only thing we could do".
So let's give to Britan an anticipated welcome to the Eurozone. The European Union project is healthier than ever and we all should be happy about that :-)))
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Now would be the best possible time for the US to pull out of NATO, withdraw its troops from Europe, and leave Europe to face Russia on its own. The US has been involved in too many of Europe's wars already. Another is brewing. I don't want to stay around to smell the coffee, I'd prefer to leave this next bitter brew to the Euros to deal with themselves. Time for America to tell Europe to solve its own problems for a change. And on the way out, America should remind Europe about how it failed to support it in Iraq. That would be poetic justice.
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#12 - MarcusAureliusII
"Now would be the best possible time for the US to pull out of NATO, withdraw its troops from Europe, and leave Europe to face Russia on its own."
It was your government that wanted the missile defence system in Poland and the Czech Republic. If you disagree, take it up with Washington. You have your chance in November - except, is there actually a credible candidate who opposes it?
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Re comment one: The grotesque slur on the Catholic Church is obvious, from a clear implication: the equation of the Church with the former Soviet Union by calling both of them "absolute authoritarian empires." Totally destructive of the faith--especially of young Catholics--and totally, historically, false. Please recall that the ex-communists now in power are part of a tradition which has slaughtered at least 30 million of its own countrymen since Stalin.
Please also look up the Whig Interpretation of History, besides the Black Book of Communism.
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MarcusAureliusII #12:
John Quincy Adams on U.S. Foreign Policy (1821)
Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be.
But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy.
She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all.
She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.
She will commend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example.
She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom.
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Marcus was speaking more deeply and cogently than some of the recent replies to his post allow. It would not be the first time someone has suggested leaving Europe to its own. How realistic a choice that would be, however ever much 'justice' it may contain, should make for a lively debate. Considering the Fortress Europe approach of the EU--shutting off employment there for most Americans, for instance--perhaps no time than now is better for such a discussion.
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Tothman1
@6 said
: I see a repeat of the Kosovo example. Russians are doing to Georgia exactly what EU did to Serbia with Kosovo. Kosovo territory is rightfully Serbian. I think that EU states should review the history of Kosovo and the gradual immigration (and prolific procreation) of impoverished Albanians into the Kosovo region. This eventually led to imbalance in ethnic mix and the land grab by Kosovo Albanians sanctioned by the EU states. So, why is EU whining now? :
-Only Serbs and their twisted mind have so far conected Kosovo to South Ossetia.Even Russia admited they are two different kind of conflicts.
To claim that Russians are doing what E.U did is a totaly ignorant statement.Russia is not the West,and not comparable to it,Georgia is not Serbia and Kosovo is not South Ossetia.
The west intervened in Serbia with international backing and did not cross into Serbian territory outside of Kosovo.
Russia intervened all alone,and has no backing whatsoever not even from the dictatorial and terrorist states it is friends with.
Kosovo is not Serbian,has never been,and wether you like it or not ,never will be.
There has never been migration of impoverished Albanians into Kosovo,but quite the other way round,there has been imigration of persecuted Kosovans (by Serbs with backing of Russia) into Albania.The Albanian population in Kosovo is not product of imigration but an indigenious population of thousends of years old that had civilisation ,language and culture thousends of years before the Serbs,and their Slavic barbars imigrated into the balkans.So dont play with history.
Which land grab?The only land grab that Europe has allowed was giving Kosovo to Serbia in the first place when it was scared of Russia in 1912.
AS for the rest it has been historicaly a political,military, and demographic fight in Kosovo between Serbs and Albanians ever since Slavic tribes immigrated into areas inhabited by indigenious populations,that of course ended up,the way it was going to end up,and the way it should have,with Albanians wining that centuries old war,and against all ods.
When Albanians in their territory have the oldest continously inhabited towns in Europe,and a documented history and folk and culture conecting them with their land for thousends of years,the Serbs are claiming territories based on few midevil build churches.Ridicolous.
What history should be reviewed?The history that Miloshevic was a crazy Serb who threatened to kill,forcely expel from their homes,a whole ethnic groop,and acted upon it,until it was stoped by the international community.(which if it would not have then that war dont think it would have gone Serbia's way,Albania had not so far been involved in the war,but sure it would have latter on,had the international community not intervened)
What is there to be reviwed about that?
It is nice to see you showing in forums your real face,because it strengthens the Albanians case that with such nut-cases such as you,there can be no way for Albanians to live in a Serbian state.
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... and the Russians will ask rhetorically: "How many divisions do these 27 latter-day Popes of Avignon have?" knowing very well that the EU is as powerful and effective as a eunuch in a harem.
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Betuli, how do u makes this stuff up? Britain, Eurozone, Russia, Georgia...err...what??
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Two issues:
1. Conflict investigation. If there is to be an investigation of the conflict, it must (a) not have pre-designed outcomes (e.g. "Georgia started it - so we don't need to respond to Russia's aggression".), and (b) take into account the full context and history of the region (in my view the underlying cause of the 2008 conflict was poor Russian peacekeeping and mediation following the 1992 wars...)
2. EU Unity. It is patently obvious that the EU's decision making processes are fundamentally broken and not even the Lisbon treaty can save them. The answer is relatively simple - any incoming European Commission should present a detailed programme of government (including foreign policy) for approval to Europe's only truly democratic institution, the parliament. Then the commission would have a mandate to act on the basis of that programme.
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betuli,
Please do not confuse me as being eurosceptic when in fact I am actually very much supportive of the idea of being a citizen of Europe!
I am sceptical of the EU and thus eu-sceptic - this is something entriely different.
As a europhile, I applaud the European Nations for not wilting under the aggression of Russia.
As separate issue, I support the idea that the UK should participate in a european-wide internal market (I voted for that in 1975) and I welcome the free movement of workers and goods within the internal free market borders. I am also supportive of the idea that the UK should adopt the Euro as this would in turn support the UK being a member state within the european intrnal market.
What I detest is the nascent movement of the EEC to an EC and to now an EU which has democratic deficit. It is this dictatorial approach to the creation of a European State that I object to. I am not entirely dismissive of the idea of there eventually being a European-wide State I just want it to evolve with the involvement of the people of Europe and not created by Politicians who think they know what is best for Europe.
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In response to post #17-I detect the writer is either Albanian, or close associate thereof, with vulgar mouth, but inadequate thought.
I would like to remind the writer that in fact NATO did cross onto Serbian territory, albeit with "humanitarian bombings". It should alsoo be pointed out that KLA has been designated as a terrorist organization by USA. What a turn around. I did not state that I agreed with Milosevic's approach to dealing with KLA, however, I would like someone to point out to me how you deal with a terrorist organization that has the backing of its ethnic brethren.
I was said by a more enlightened person than me (namely Canadian General Lewis, retired), that Kosovo has been handed over to gangsters and terrorists with drug/prostitution leanings.
I would like Named-Erion to show me that the Albanians were totally innocent in the conflict with the Serbs then and now.
I, also, believe that Named-Erion prefers to be ignorant and therefore prefers not to review the history. I would suggest, to anyone who has the linguistic possibility to translate from Czech language, to see the documentary "Stolen Kosovo" prepared for Czech Television, but never aired as not to anger NATO/EU.
In closing, I should inform Named-Erion that I am Canadian with an opinion and that is my right. By calling someone "a nut case" is a hallmark of an ignorant hick who does not have the intellectual ability to debate an issue. Enough said.
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The EU foreign ministers may or may not speak with a powerful voice on the Georgia/S Ossetia issue.
However, the fact remains that the EU is the world's largest integrated free-trade area - and that matters to Russia. There may be cracks between states that Russia can (and does) exploit - but at the risk of losing out overall. That is why the proposed "Partenership Agreement" between the EU and Russia may be so important a lever in the current stand-off'.
NB to those pedants who complain about the standard of Mark's grammar or spelling - this is a blog for goodness sake, not a BBC broadcast. Is that all you can contribute to this online debate on real issues?
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fragility at #7
I, personally, have no faith in the United Nations as it is, in my opinion, a very expensive talking shop and, these days, of no more value to the world than the defunct League of Nations was pre-1939.
Preceding the invasion of Georgia on the night of 7/8th August 2008, Russia sought UN approval for Russia to take remedial action in regard to Georgia's assault upon the rebellious enclave of South Ossetia.
The 15 member nations of the Security Council could not agree to Russia's request so Russia invaded Georgia as a unilateral action and without UN approval on 8th August 2008.
I totally disagree with you that the "The commonly accepted venue for establishing facts is UN.". That is nonsense as far as I am concerned and at best just your wishful thinking.
I accept that the EU has no more valued opinion to the conflict in Georgia than any other group of nations or, indeed, China, India or Brazil. However, China, India or Brazil have expressed no interest in Georgia as far as I know but the EU has and, like it or not, the EU is going to try to determine the causes of the recent conflict with Georgia, identify the facts and investigate the effects.
This may actually lead to finding that Russia acted rationally and lead to attempt a normalise dealings with Russia by the EU but, there again, the investigation may identify that Russia fermented the insurgency and was prepared to invade Georgia as soon as Georgia made the mistake of trying to subdue the insurgency in South Ossetia.
I am not so certain as you that Russia does not need to trade with the EU.
As of now the relationship between Russia and the EU is strained to say the least and the EU has decided that it will eliminate dependence of the EU member states upon Russian fossil fuel supplies.
At the moment this will hurt Russia more than it hurts the EU as Russia does not yet have pipelines to China or India although that is something I believe Russia is seeking to develop - if it does, that will take many years.
With loss of inward investment, reduced Moscow Stock Market Values (in double digits) and increasing loss of trust by the West and especially the EU, I would suggest that Russia has badly underestimated the effect of its decision to invade Georgia.
I welcome the EU investigation of the Georgian Conflict and look forward to reading its findings.
I sincerely hope that it finds that Russia acted entirely legitimately, was provoked and forced to invade Georgia on 8th August 2008. . . . but then this may simply be my wishful thinking - similar to your favourable opinion of the United Nations.
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Gheryando, last events, although apparently unconnected, have shown the convenience of a united Europe.
Sarkozy's intervention in the Georgia-Russia row, representing the whole EU, has been a success to stop worse consequences. This French/European move has been praised by the British foreign Minister David Miliband (Brown doesn't exist in the international arena).
On the other hand, UK recession with the pound in free fall, shows us we'd better off having the UK inside the Eurozone, as our colleague Manedemus pointed out some posts ago.
This two facts are unrelated but coincident in the time, and both demonstrate from an economical and political perspectives how important is having a strong and united Europe.
Manedemus, I've been reading with interest your posts and have no doubts you are a fervent British europhile, like many other British I've met in my life. I'm living now in London and working with many employees in the City who cannot wait for Britain to adopt the Euro. It's a matter of time.
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Mark mentions 'the rulers of Europe', a description that fits the bill perfectly. Indeed, government ministers, together with the EU's very own politburo (commission) have become 'the rulers of Europe'.
Mark finishes with 'there was no appeal either'. Well, Mark, when the EU's politburo combines with the government ministers (EU council) to make laws, no elected national parliament can do anything about that. In other words: there's no appeal when the EU legislates. Democracy not welcome here.
And as for their 'we can recognize Kosovo but you can not recognize Abkhazia', I treat that with the utter contempt it deserves.
@frenchderek (23)
perhaps you need to look up the difference between a 'free trade area' (which the EU is not) and a customs union.
The EU has utterly destroyed much of the agricultural and fisheries sector of Africa by denying its farmers and fishermen access, and at the same time bribing governments there to turn fishing rights over to the EU and dumping its surplus foodstuff in Africa at basement prices that African farmers find it hard to compete against.
If the EU was truly a free trade area, this would not happen. But since the EU isn't a free trade area, but a customs union to protect mainly French farmers against non European competition, it does happen.
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The euro is hated by the people who how forced to use it welcome to the EU even the Germana want their own back. There is will never be a country called europe too many barrier language cultural differences , picture a french man telling a british man in a EU army who cant speak there opposite languages trying to give out orders and them times that to how many languages in europe a walking disaster.A bridge to far
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The EU wants courts would to have the ability to pass judgement in criminal cases and when issuing fines or European Arrest Warrants without the defendants being present.
Mr Farage said: "If other European nations want to adopt our own higher protections, our greater civil liberties, then they are of course quite free to, without EU compulsion.
"But why should we destroy our own freedoms just to fit in with them?"
The Ministry of Justice had said the plan would "increase legal certainty and improve mutual trust" and would "help ensure that a person cannot escape justice by fleeing to another member state."
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@Toothman.
To jump into other arguments without standing the ground on teh previous ones is a well known Serbian propaganda tactic to me.You are doing the same.
And once i completely destroy the totally baseless alegations of yours you will jump in other arguments.lets see ......
You said-
:
I would like to remind the writer that in fact NATO did cross onto Serbian territory, albeit with "humanitarian bombings". :
-First you said it was the E.U.In case you dont know E.U from NATO are two very separate organisations.
NATO did bomb targets in Serbia but did not invade territory as Russia did in Georgia,bombing at will,and invading a Democratic country.-
: It should also be pointed out that KLA has been designated as a terrorist organization by USA. What a turn around:
--What kind of turnaround?It was designated a terrorist org when it attacked Serbian Military,it has never attacked civilians in Serbia or any other country,it has operated militarily only in conflict areas where it was suported ,and indeed it was the population itself.Almost every capable man in Kosovo signed his name in the KLA reserves list during the war in Kosovo.Very far from an terrorist ORG dont you think?--
: I did not state that I agreed with Milosevic's approach to dealing with KLA, however, I would like someone to point out to me how you deal with a terrorist organization that has the backing of its ethnic brethren:
----Miloshevic did not deal with KLA,but used the KLA to ethnicaly cleanse the Albanians from their home country.It would have been the same if Britain would have used an attak of IRA on British military to ethnicaly cleanse the Irish from Northern Ireland.Thats the difference between a crazy ultra-nationalistic regime and a democracy----------------
:I was said by a more enlightened person than me (namely Canadian General Lewis, retired), that Kosovo has been handed over to gangsters and terrorists with drug/prostitution leanings:
-------Get your facts straight,Kosovo was handed over to the KFOR and UNMIK (a U.N administrative body and international peacekeeprs with U.N mandate) for ten years during wich Kosovo held two democratic elections,changing power on both.After that with free and democraticaly elected government,the people of Kosovo wanted rid of the corupt U.N administration,and wanted to fullfil their dream of being free from the decisions of others in tehir own land,and in their own house.There was big tension on the streets and the government was left with no choise but to declare independence,and the interantional community with no choice but to accept it,there are more enlightened persons then this general who dont agree with him,in fact,facts,and history,and reality on the ground dont.--------------------
:I would like Named-Erion to show me that the Albanians were totally innocent in the conflict with the Serbs then and now. :
-------I never said Albanians were totaly inocent,in fact some Albanians have commited horific crimes against the Serbs and the Gypssys,but that was not an organised state sponsored or (any kind of organisative body sponsored ) crimes as opossed to Serbian crimes wich were commited by Military under the orders of Government and leaders.There is not even evidence that the KLA ever used crimes against Serbs as a matter of policy.It was simply revenge,a typical balkanik,and specially Albanian revenge that unfortunately was to be expected in my opinion,it was uncontrolled and unplaned,commited by iregular civilians against other civilians after the disatrous war that the Serbians waged on an unarmed population,who came back home armed to the teeth with the arms of Albania 1997,to claim revenge.I know of many such individual stories if it would be of interest to you----------
: I would suggest, to anyone who has the linguistic possibility to translate from Czech language, to see the documentary "Stolen Kosovo" prepared for Czech Television, but never aired as not to anger NATO/EU.:
-------Your facts are again wrong,you choose to base your opinion in one of hundreds of documentaries done about the Kosovo conflict wich is totaly wrong and thats your problem,you remain the ignorant in this story i am afraid.The documentary Stolen Kosovo was withdrawn from the Check television not because it upset NATO/EU (wich is absurd to sugest,Check republic is a democracy and the media is free) but because acording to that televission itself,it was a propaganda documentary founded by people interested in Serbian propaganda,and was not based on facts.Check for yourself the reasons why it was not aired.That televission never claimed to have been pressured or anything,but simply that the documentary was not suported by facts at all.-----------
:In closing, I should inform Named-Erion that I am Canadian with an opinion and that is my right. By calling someone "a nut case" is a hallmark of an ignorant hick who does not have the intellectual ability to debate an issue. Enough said.:
--The language you used against Albanians in that post was the language used by Serbian Nut-cases who see nothing further then their ultra-nationalism and have never shown regret or remorse for the victims of their nationalistic wars in the Balkans,but continue to insult and to spread hate.They dont realise that thats why they lost Kosovo and thats why they will never have it.
In this world dont exist a people stupid enough to be hated so much by another people but yet allow themselves to be ruled by them.Keep this well in mind my friend.Just cklick on Serbian sources anywhere and read,and after that tell me ,if you would like to live in country run by such nut-cases if you were Albanian.What do you think?-
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betuli @25
Being praised by Miliband is not a badge of honour. It is similar to being micturated upon by a poodle, but leaves a nastier smell.
There may be good economic reasons for to be in the Eurozone at this time, but the ceding of financial and monetary - in effect political - control and sovereignty to the EU is a step too far even for the gutless incompetents of NuLabour.
Your friends in the City may want the Euro. Most Britons don't. Tough.
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@Toothman.
All serbs are russian puppets, or better say immigrant slavs who came in the balkans from russia, or simply to be called former russian people.
what can you excpect from such people, who do not feel Europeans or part of the West family? serbs feel for their east-asiatic roots and their beloved mother russia.
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I am sorry for the Czech-Check mistake,is a terrible mistake,i feel ashamed now.:-)
Max-Sceptic ,
why do you say it with such confidence that most Britons dont support the Euro?
The case has never been made to them,and without the case been made i see that there is amazing support for the Euro in Britain.
Most probably people would vote for it if the case was made for the Euro and a referendum held.
But you have to understand that Britons have been told that they are far ahead economicaly from the rest of Europe that they dont need Euro (By The Sun,Daily Mail etc)in a brutal campaign against the Euro in the media and not much a campaign for the benefits of it,and yet still there is suport,is not that amazing?
As the public opinion in Britain is coming with their feet down on earth with regard to the economy they will start to understand the benefits of joining Euro.It means a more stable currency.And if the currency is more stable what do you care if is Sterling or Euro?I dont get it!
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Named-Erion @32,
No. You don't get it.
Most Britons want an independent Britain. Their cannot be true independence without the ability to set ones own currency and interest rates.
Eurozone countries - who favour "closer political union" - are using the single currency to further political goals. Fine for them.
I'm in favour of a referendum on anything to do with Britain's involvement with the EU - starting with the Lisbon Treaty, but there's little chance of this government granting one as the answer would not be 'acceptable' to Brussels.
(Ask the Irish).
Personally, I'd stick to a subject you seem to know more about: the interminable tribal squabbles that plague the Balkans and Caucasus. (Just don't get us involved again, please).
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MaxSceptic 30,
Named-Erion has already pointed out we don't know if "most Britons reject the Euro" as you pontified, since they have never voted on this issue.
What we know for sure is most Britons elected Mr Miliband in his constituency for a 5 years term in Parliament, so the scatological language you used on writing about your respresentative is not appropiate, not even respectful with your compatriots.
Also, people working in the City are not "my friends" as you said and I haven't.
I agree though with your final sentence in post 33:
"The interminable tribal squabbles that plague the Balkans and Caucasus. (Just don't get us involved again, please)."
By the way, Named-Erion, it's not ashaming to mispell Czech with check, boths words sound the same in English, don't they? The consonant group "cz" is very unusual... Anyway, this post seems to go about spelling, grammar and vocabulary.
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Again you did not answer my question on what do you base your opinion that most Brits dont want to join the Euro? And wether there has been a proper sensibilation campaign presenting fact fairly from both PRO and against the EURO?
And how about you chill a little bit?
It seams to me you take this EURO issue far to personally.If I dont get it ,then enlighten me.
And chill man,reconsider your comments before you post,you not debating with your kids here,showing me which topic should i stick to,this is an open blog.
Got It?
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The Popes during their exile in Avignon were politically completely impotent.
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i find it ironic how, brefer of the gung-ho all-guns-blazing military option preferred by certain other powers, the eu is forced at least in this instance to rely on a thoroughly sensible response instead.
i for one do not claim to know for sure who was more in the wrong in escalating this crisis and targeting civilians. i suspect both have blood on their hands, although i consider the georgians' motives to be much purer.
btw, detailed analyses of kosovo's recent history, anti-eu diatribes and the merits of the uk joining the euro are off topic. pls save them for a more relevant report from mark.
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Where is the moderation of these posts?! In the last few discussions ethnic and racial insults ave slipped repeatedly through - if I was moderating this blog, I would not let them through...
... karolina, Serbs possibly came from what is now East Germany, Croats from what is south-east Poland, and no idea for the rest. If anything, Serbs are western Slavs. I have to ask you, how OLD are you? Wht you have posted is inappropriate and pure incorrect drivel. Is being some kind of ASIAN slav supposed to be an insult?
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Forgive my simplicity, but I always thought that delivering a verdict in a dispute before all the pertinent facts had been properly considered was a pre-judgment or prejudice, and may lead to a miscarriage of justice. I certainly would not like to be tried in a court operating according to such a practice, and I am sure the same goes for anyone reading this comment.
So, I can understand why Russia feels aggrieved that the West has hauled it into the dock in what can only be described as a media "kangaroo court". I am not at all suggesting that Russia should be exonerated, but there is something deeply disturbing - and suspicious - about Western diplomacy if it cannot apply the standards of its own system of justice to its foreign policy statements.
Whatever one's view about the conflict in the Caucasus, any impartial and rational observer has to accept that the emotional rhetoric of the last few weeks from the likes of Miliband et al cannot be justified from a legal point of view.
I am not arguing for appeasement - just the truth.
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HRW:
(New York, September 1, 2008) – The Georgian government said it used cluster munitions during the August 2008 armed conflict with Russia, Human Rights Watch said today.
Somehow, BBC et al do not reflect on this - not important, perhaps. "Russians use cluster munitions" - oh, yahh, that was chewed on and on and on. But georgians - who cares? Or, may be, poor BBC et al just missed it because the HRW article title - LOL -
\Georgia: Join Treaty Banning Cluster Munitions.
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hellooooooo
egooor in NY !
Are you still here?! I remember you promised to give us up and leave us in pleasure and fun. Russians never carry out their promises! You too!
But what to do?! You love DERJAVA sooo much.... as all the rest of you.
Good that you informed people here of the news they are not able to read themselves.
good guy
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Ciao egoor
in NY
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All this informal meeting of Foreign Ministers is a late summer Holiday in Southern France avoiding the rain soaked North. So they select Sarkozy the host to deliver a message of Unity, a meaningless gesture, that will be avoided like all the piles of British White Paper reports etc gathering dust in Whitehall.
The worst is Dickie Cheney the war monger of the fraud Iraq war and the equally hideous and untenable war on terror in Afghanistan is the neighboring Russian countries rattling swords and more aid carp amounting to billions when the US itself is at the point of going bankrupt with the worst ever fiscal, economical, political, housing, banking and lending crisis.
One hurricane just let out a moderated furry, and two more are on the way to create more of the same as what Katrina and Rita did three years. All this while the conservative republicans with their new heir apparent, a 72 year old pit bull, a fake war hero , with four bouts of cancer, one foot in the grave has picked a 44 year old novice pentecostal evangelical, power abuser Governor of Alaska who like to US flag bikini and trotting AK 47 rifles as a member of the NRA.
The hot mama and her equally hot teenage daughter like nothing better then getting pregnant and thumping bibles as hypocrite Sunday Christians.
As for the Russian, when they shut of the the oil and natural gas pipe lines to Europe, there will not be even a whimper heard about Georgia or anything else.
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Winemaster2, shame on you:
"... AK 47 rifles as a member of the NRA."
No self-respecting NRA member would parade
around an AK. An M-16 or M-4, but not an AK.
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gunsandreligion wrote #44:
"Winemaster2, shame on you:
"... AK 47 rifles as a member of the NRA."
No self-respecting NRA member would parade
around an AK. An M-16 or M-4, but not an AK."
And the reason is religious or ballistic?
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#43 Winemaster2
Don't tell me, don't tell me.... NOOOOO don't tell me.
You're a Barack Obama supporter. Am I right, tell me, am I right ?
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fragility @45
Probably for both reasons! LOL
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#40 Egor_NY
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/09/01/georgi19722.htm
Excerpt:
Neither Georgia nor Russia has signed up to the treaty banning cluster munitions.
This BBC report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7572969.stm
simply says
It does not say which side used them.
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If I may say so, there are two aspects to this blog which are becoming very tedious and should be addressed. The first is the tendency of racist and ethnically prejudicial comment to creep in. A large proportion of contributors are British and will have traditionally viewed such tensions as between white and coloured, western and Muslim and so on. Living in eastern Europe, I see a different kind of tension as, for example, the problems of ethic Hungarians in Slovakia or Romania or Roma throughout the region. We are all Europeans now. You can argue all you like about the institutions and constitutional arrangements but for heaven's sake cut the BS about 'Russian puppets' and other such insults. It only underlines the ignorance and prejudice of the posters and contributes nothing to the debate.
The other thing is comment - primarily from the euroceptic wing about what 'the British want'. How the hell do you know (MaxSceptic) that most Britons do not want the Euro or, as someone posted in an earlier thread, that the Brits want a free trade area, not increasing political union?
You cannot possibly know this because nobody has asked the question. Menedemus and I, from slightly different perspectives, have been making the point for weeks. There is a massive democratic deficit throughout Europe - not just in the UK - based on the arrogant assumption that the EU leadership knows best and that they have a mandate derived from the democratic accountability of the member states' governments. It is becoming clear that this is not the case and the imbalance has to be addressed.
But people serving up their wishful thinking as fact might not only be highly misleading but it insults those Brits who are not eurosceptic and see some kind of integration as a way forward. It you are so convinced you are right, either prove it or stop professing to speak for most Britons.
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Menedemus wrote #47:
fragility @45
"Probably for both reasons! LOL"
Looking at the othe side, and extending the list of questions. The afgan taleban use AK47 instead of M16 for the reason of (i) religion (ii) ballistics (iii) finansial problems?
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#50 - fragility
AK47s? I blame the BOGOF culture - Buy One, Get One Free.
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fragility @50
If you have the chance to ever watch Michael Palin's travelogue "Himalaya" there is an early episode where he is in the region of the North-West Frontier (inside Pakistan) where he is entertained to the two thriving shop-keeper trades of that region.
One is dentistry and the other is that of gunsmith. Every male in the region possesses a gun (even 8 year old boys own guns!) and the reason is that the Pakistani Gunsmiths can produce for you an AK47 for pennies, cents or kopecks.
AK47 are the least complex gun to manufacture and the weapon proliferates because they are as cheap as chips to obtain!
Michael Palin's "Himalaya" shows a gunsmith making an AK47 and and one can see how easy it is to manufacture these weapons. They are carbon-copies of the Russian weapon but they are just as lethal in the wrong hands as the original weapon.
For Pakistanis and Afghans, owning a gun is not so much a means of protection but it is culturally an expression of manhood.
I am sure that there were Russian's killed by such shop-made AK47s in Afghanistan in the 1980s as there are ISAF Troops killed by such weapons in Afghanistan now.
I'm not casting blame, I merely point out that possessing a gun is a cultural need in some regions of the world and it is how the guns are used not the guns themselves that can be the evil!
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Now would be the perfect time for America to come to its senses, remember the sage words of President Washington who warned against entangling alliances with Europe and walk away. Nearly a century of foolishly involving itself in European affairs, it has brought America nothing but trouble. Let the Europeans do whatever they will to each other. America should put nothing of its own at risk there even one more day. It is not America's job in the world to bring sanity or democracy or properity to any other nation but its own. It's a hopeless task there anyway.
What an ironic title for a thread. As the weather turns colder with summer over and winter on its way, as the economy of the US and the rest of the world's economies cool down with it, as the threat of a repeat of Russia turning off the gas and oil to Western Europe looms larger over the crisis now tenuously contained in the Caucuses, the heat in Europe will surely turn up much further than it has already. Is the the heat of the crucible of a nascent EU...or the heat of its funeral pyre?
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Egor_NY @ #40
In your efforts to find evidence of crimes by Georgia, I would simply refer you to this Wikipedia Link BM-21
This is the GRAD Rocket launcher used by Georgia of which film shows then in use on the night of 7th August 2008.
They are a legacy Russian weapon still in use by the Georgia military.
From the link you will see that many former-Soviet nations still possess such weapons and, indeed, some NATO nations possess similar artillery.
Neither Georgia nor Russia have signed up to declaring the BM-21 bomblet munitions being prohibited weapons as you suggest and thus this is an unfounded allegation of (a) misuse and (b) improper reporting.
The EU Investigation that will take place in Georgia and, hopefully, within South Ossetia/Abkhazia and will no doubt look at the use of weapons on both sides of the conflict but I would be very surprised if only the Georgian military used their BM-21 weapons.
Any further protestations of innocence or guilt and attempts to blanche or blame the activites of the Georgians or Russians may lead to egg on one anothers' faces.
I would suggest that recriminations be left until the EU investigation into the causes and effects of the Georgian Conflict has reported its findings.
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MAII @ 53
With you flagship of 6th Fleet anchored outside Poti, Georgia and Dick Cheney doing the rounds of Ukraine, Azerbaijan and Georgia drumming up hostile rhetoric with Russia, dare I suggest that the US attempts to keep antagonising Russia are probably the root cause of all of this furore.
If Russia and the US come to blows arising from the undoubtedly new Cold War period we have entered I think the friendship of the US and Europe will become a valued commodity for the Americans.
If, as I suspect Russia starts to negate the effort of the UN to reign in the Iranian wish to develop Nuclear Power and, indeed, as is being reported, start to support Iran, I dare say your troops in Iraq will be at great risk from threat by Iran - all created by US antagonism which is often illustrated within your comments.
I dare say that Iran will have their efforts to produce nuclear weapons thwarted by Israel but if Iran and Russia ally then war with Isreal will bring the US into direct conflict with Iran and Russia.
You may have antipathy towards Europe and wish the US to sever ties with this continent but some of its nations are allied to the US and do not deserve your blanket criticism. They are friends with the US and these countries will be willing to sacrifice their sons and daughter in the event that the US exercises the need for mutual defence of the NATO Alliance Treaty.
Please consider this when you denigrate the alliance between Europe and the USA.
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betuli @34 wrote: "so the scatological language you used on writing about your respresentative is not appropiate, not even respectful with your compatriots.".
Respect has to be earned - and maintained. Nu Labour and Milipede lost any vestiges of public respect long ago.
Named-Erion @35,
I take it 'personally' because Britain is my country. Is it yours?
As for a national referendum on the Euro, the Lisbon Treaty or even EU membership - bring it on! (We all know that this will not ever happen as the powers that be know that the result(s) will not be acceptable to Brussels.
Which is why no other EU member state - other than Ireland - will ever ask its citizens for their opinions ever again.
(This response also answers you, threnodio @49).
gillibrand @36 wrote:
"The Popes during their exile in Avignon were politically completely impotent."
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose, eh?
Rob_Hob @38 wrote:
Where is the moderation of these posts?! In the last few discussions ethnic and racial insults ave slipped repeatedly through - if I was moderating this blog, I would not let them through...
Luckily, no-one has appointed you High Censor. It's bad enough that the BBC - whom I involuntarily fund via my Licence Tax have the audacity to appoint themselves as 'moderators' of public taste and decency....
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Serbs dont come from east Germany,... in your dreams maybe.. otherwise they would look a bit like Germans, dont you think so??
they came from a region in russia which is located between ukraine and georgia.
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Menedemus # 54
I wonder if you intended to say that a crime against humanity cannot be committed using conventional weaponry? That would imply that the international courts on Rwanda and former Yugoslavia are totally baseless.
Besides, there is another point. The premeditatedly deadly attack of the georgians on the Russian peacekeeping troops, killing 16 and wounding many, is regarded as an aggression and thereby constitutes a classical casus belli by any standards of international law. What is the point of talking about the "russian aggression"?
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Menedemus #55
There is some irony in your comments upon the american antagonistic policy arguably leading to a new cold war, which you beieve is not what Europe really wants. The central historical fact is that the cold war was about Europe. Moreover, it is also clamed by the current US administration that the new oni is also intended to protect Europe against the supposed russian aggression (the latter is now assumed to be directed through Georgia which paradoxically is not in Europe). Therefore, a final end for the cold war era would be the US turning back to a new isolationism. I wonder if that would be a dream of Europe?
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karolina001 #58
Let me me update you on some well-known historical facts. The territory of the southern Ukraine, southern Russia and North of the Caucasus was 1000 years ago occupied by nomadic tribes of which none spoke any slavic language. Among the nomadic people who lived in that area were the hungarians, who later moved to the west. I wonder if it was them who you meant to send back to East Europe from the Balkans?
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fragilty @ #59
I do not think I said that crimes against humanity cannot be be committed using conventional firearms. If that was construed then it is something I am more than happy to correct.
As to aggression and casus belli the Russians claimed their invasion of Georgia using overwhelming forces was due to the deaths of 2000 South Ossetian Russian citizens. It was not until late on 8th August that I first read any mention of the deaths of 16 Russian Peacekeepers - some time after Russia had invaded Georgia with overwhelming force.
The deaths of 16 Russian peace keepers is no doubt something that the EU Investigators will want to verify as part of the EU investigation. Much criticism has been directed towards Georgians and Russians in regards to their actions and reactions. Some if it may be true and some of it may be exaggeration.
I believe the truth will come out in due course.
As I stated at #54 "I would suggest that recriminations be left until the EU investigation into the causes and effects of the Georgian Conflict has reported its findings.
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#59 fragility
The first part of this post baffled me a bit because I cannot see anywhere in post #54 where it says "a crime against humanity cannot be committed using conventional weaponry". Did you mean a different post ?
Do you mind supplying a link to this story because I have yet to see it and I am interested in it, as I am sure many are. Thanks
Meantime, did anyone notice the story from Ingushetia ? Murat Zyazikov is President of Ingushetia.
http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/600/42/370550.htm
Them ole AK47s strike again.
They're just unlucky those ex-KGB people, they way violence happens around them.
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58 karolona 000,
is showing an exceptional knowledge of migration.
I suppose you don't mean that Serbs are Georgians.
Then I think you suggest secretly that they are Ukrainians but cannot offer this idear openly.
Is this the case?
It is also possible that you are proposing to settle them back in between Ukrainian and Georgian territory that is recently claimed by Russia. Great idea!
Why not! If everyone has a right for selfdetermination, Serbians should also have this right.
As to the land there (in between U. and G.), I can tell you it is really beautifle. Good choice.
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Menedemus
Iran and the Caucuses are two entirely different issues. Iran wants to destroy the United States because America's culture is a threat to the Iranian concept of Islamic culture it wants to spread around the world, America is a threat to Iranian dominance as the ruler of an empire real or imagined it had over a thousand years ago, and because it supports Israel's right to exist and defend itself as a Western non Islamic culture and religion diametrically opposed to its own. Ruissia will no more fight World War III with the US over Iran than it did over Iraq. Only the US and Israel have the means to neutrialize the threat of Iran but do they have the political will? Most Arab states in the area are deathly afraid of Iran and secretly hope they do. And they hope they will get the job done soon. After it is, they will strongly criticize in in public....and breathe a sigh of relief in private.
The American fleet is in Poti to deliver humanitarian aid, nothing more. If it wanted to engage the Russian navy, their entire fleet would already be at the bottom of the ocean. American rhetoric is not at the root of anything here, it is racial hatred and Russian fomented rebelion and invasion to support it. Let's not get the issue confused here. This has been building for a very long time. Russia does not want to lose permanent control over its former empire it kept under the guise of the USSR.
The cold war between 1945 and 1991 was about Soviet Hegemony over the entire world. There was not a single place on earth that wasn't on the front lines of that war just the way the war on terror against radical Islam is a worldwide war where everhwhere including Iraq is the front line. The new cold war if it arises in Europe (according to a former KGB defector who wrote a book it is in Russian eyes the same cold war it always fought) is about Russian empire which will be fought on the pretext of protecting the descendants of its colonists in neighboring countries, people it considers its own nationals. It is strictly a European war but it may eventually involve China too.
The friendship of Europe for the US is a myth trotted out when it is convenient because Europe wants and needs something from the US, usually defense. Among Europeans, only half the UK supported the US invasion of Iraq when the US felt threatened. Most other people in Europe, 80% to 90% opposed it no matter what their governments said or did. In Italy and Spain their governments fell on account of supporting it. The US can selectively sign treaties with those nations who actually have common cause and interest with the US such as Britain? and the Netherlands? Possibly Poland. To what extent this is actually a mutual defense pact or just an assistance pact can be debated in America. Except for Britain, none of America's so called allies in NATO have done anything like their fair share in Afghanistan and certainly not in Iraq. Where help was given at all, it was almost entirely either severly restrained or tokenism. NATO is clearly a one way alliance to the disadvantage of the US. There is no logical reason for the US to remain in it. Not only does the US bear a disproportionate share of the financial cost, the fighting, and the equipping of NATO, it clearly does not serve its own security interests as proven in Iraq and Afghanistan. Europeans are fair weather friends at best. There is good reason why the US should stay out of European entanglements as President Washington warned. Just reading entries on this thread, this blog, it is clear that the divisions within Europe, the ethnic hatreds have not disappeared. And it's just the tip of the iceburg. We could hear the same rhetoric between the Walloons and Flemish, between the Spaniards and the Basque, in fact all over much of Europe. This should not be America's fight. America has nothing to gain and everything to lose being part of it.
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fragility @ #55
Unfortunately for Europe we seem to be unable to live side-by-side in harmony as recent events have shown (The Balkans Conflict) and past events have proven ( World Wars I and II, Prussian Wars, Napoleonic Wars and all sorts of warfare back to the times of Julius Caesar in Gaul.
For various reasons, there has always been some form of power axis in Europe whether it be Great Britain-France, France-Germany, Germany-Great Britain, Russia-Great Britain or Russia-Germany or Italy-Germany or any combination you can think of.
For the past 60 years, the Peace in Europe has been guaranteed by the presence of the USA and Canadian troops stationed in Europe and the existence of the NATO Alliance and, in first instance, this alliance was to counter the threat of the USSR and the Warsaw Pact.
The clear and present threat to Europe from the Soviet Bloc diminished from the end of the USSR and the creation of the Russian Federation. The fall of the iron Curtain and the emergence of a unified Germany was an opportunity for Europe to ensure a peace dividend. Unfortunately the dividend was squandered upon the creation of the EU - the concept being correct but the artificial nature of the EU being the wrong route.
That notwithstanding, recent statements from the Kremlin about Russia having a right to a "Sphere of Influence" and "Multipolar World", claims upon parts of the Artic and the invasion of Georgia (which I disagree with you and I believe is part of Europe) has highlighted that Russia is a potential threat to the stability of Europe.
In reality, a Europe left to its own devices by the US will become ever more fearful of Russian expansion and so the peace we have enjoyed in Europe to a large extent would become threatened in a very short space of time.
I much prefer the alliance of Europe to be a free internal market without fear or favour but the reality is that Russia is a perceived threat to the stability of Europe (whether this is true or not from the Russian perspective matters not!) and the rest of Europe needs the USA to appear to keep Russia in check and maintain the peace between us.
By the same token, the USA further antagonising Russia by suggestion, rhetoric or actions is not helpful and just exacerbates the status quo. If the wheel come of their wagon and Iran and America enter into direct hostilities (whatever the cause - I merely surmise that Israel bombing the Iranian Nuclear Capability will be the catalyst!) will mean that the USA will require assistance and that assistance will be European support (through the NATO Alliance) followed by the Commonwealth of Nations (aiding Great Britain) joining the support leading to world war.
I suspect that the almost natural antipathy between Russia and the USA will mean that Russia will involve itself on the side of Iran although that does seem to be a contradiction in terms of national psyches.
This is, of course all hypothetical, MAII may wish to sever the US ties with Europe but the NATO alliance is as strong as ever.
Russia has baulked at further aggression in Georgia and withdrawn its troops in full or partial compliance with the obligations of the EU broker six-point truce and the EU is going to investigate the causes and effects of the Georgian conflict.
If Russia were to be exonerated by the EU Georgia Investigation then I would be the first to support the EU trying to resume friendship with Russia. Sadly, I am pessimistic that this will be the case so I support the fact that the USA, despite the views of MAII, still continues to be a friend of Europe and continues to support the European ideal of continued peace and prosperity.
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MAII at #65
You wrote: "Iran and the Caucuses are two entirely different issues."
You may wish it so but President Putin has agreed to support increased provision of materails and technical support ot Iran today including the provision of training in Russia for increasing the number of Iranians with nuclear technology knowledge.
The actions of the US in regard to Georgia may be seen by the US as humanitarian and of no consequence but in a volatile world, the Russian perception is important.
If, the US and Iran do enter into hostilities the Americans are going to need friends.
You may dislike the ties between Europe and the US and you can call it a myth but the NATO alliance has persisted and thrives because the US, Canada and Europe do know we need each other in a volatile world.
I entirely accept that parts of Europe are not US-friendly but that is a symptom of 60 years of peace allowing the European youth of today to become passionate liberals as they have never experienced war and do not understand or know any better. If there is ever to be a war these same liberal anti-American Europeans will no doubt be the first to ask for the USA to give them aid and support.
I just ask you to forgive them because they do not understand or know any better.
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The irony of Russia's territorial ambitions is that in confronting it, Britain, France, Spain, Portugal, Holland, Austria, Hungary, Turkey, and even Italy, Belgium, are confronting their own past, their own imperialist mentality they held to even into the 20th century. That they fear and revile it so might help them understand why they are reviled by others such as Chinese and Americans. Europe would like to forget its past crimes and imagne that it was once a glorious place, the center of the world's greatest civilzation. Nothing could be further from the truth. The poverty, neglect, injustice the average Russian faces today as its government looks outward towards conquest and expansion was exactly the same average Europeans endured through their periods of colonial imperialism while Russia's victims like Georgia suffered and will suffer what Europe's victims suffered too. If anyone should understand the way Russia sees the world, it should be Europe because it used to see it exactly the same way. 21st century Russia is 19th century Britain, and 18th century, and 17th century. Small wonder they are frightened of it.
As the dominant power in Europe, America has kept the peace for the last 63 years. But it has been at enormous cost. The question America should ask Europe is why should this continue and why should it continue at cost to the American taxpayer? Why should America risk anything to protect Europe especially when Europe now tells us how rich and prosperous and independent it is? Why does Europe need America to defend it if not to just get someone else to pay and take the risks for it while it sits back and criticizes? Time for a pullout, lock, stock, and barrel. Europe, fight your own wars, leave America out of it. Russia is not a direct threat to America, it is not the USSR.
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Russia does't seem particularly concerned about Iran acquiring nuclear weapons. Perhaps it hasn't occurred to Russia that one day they could fall into the hands of the likes of Chechyn terrorists who would use them against Russia itself. I wonder how they would feel about a nuclear armed Germany. Would they launch a pre-emptive strike against the Germans if they thought Germany was developing nuclear weapons? Funny how national animousities persist. The Russians can say they were fighting the Nazis in the so called "Great Patriotic War" but they know who they were really fighting.
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#65 MarcusAureliusII
Personally, I don't believe Iran is nearly as active as that. It complicates things as well that Al Qaeda - particularly through the actions of Zarqawi (aka Ahmed Khalayleh) - made itself into a Shi'a-killing organisation. In fact, Khalayleh put killing Shi'a above just about everything else, even killing Americans. Iran is about 90% Shi'a.
I believe Iran wants to dominate the region. President Ahmadinejad is also something of a religious nut who had some rather strange religious hallucinations whilst addressing the UN, according to a film clip I saw of him talking to Ali Khamenei. Nevertheless, he is popular with the working class in Iran - especially Teheran where he was mayor - which the rich Rafsanjani was not.
Even Ahmadinejad characterises himself as 'anti-Zionist', not 'anti-jewish'. His holocaust denial statements seem to fit with that in that he believes the Zionists have exploited the Holocaust for Zionist political ends. He has also pointed out that jews live peacefully in Iran and are represented in the Majlis, the iranian parliament. They have a deputy as do the zoroastrians. The christians have three. That is not the case in many sunni muslim nations where converting to Christianity - let alone Judaism - can get you executed.
Ahmadinejad is also quoted as saying that he wanted Israel 'wiped off the map'. Apparently, that was a mistranslation by IRNA, the Iranian news agency. He apparently said that he wanted Israel to 'vanish from the page of time'. He has used the same expression about the USSR - that it vanished from the page of time - without military action. The crucial part of this is that he did not intend any military threat to Israel and he has made that clear since.
It may well be that Iran wants to spread its religion around the world. So do the wahhabis in Saudi Arabia and christian missionaries everywhere. The saudis spend a fortune on it.
I do not believe, either, that the iranians want nuclear weapons. That does not mean they should be trusted. First, no western leader can afford to trust any hostile nation where WMD is concerned and second they are signatories to the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) so the IAEA can and does inspect them. The iranians have also made offers to go beyond the requirements of the NPT, so says Wikipedia:
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#68 MarcusAureliusII
Apart from the hegemony thing, not quite sure I understand what you are getting at there - in terms of citizens' living standards and so forth.
There was a class system as there was in other nations in the world - including the USA. Are you making a specific point about British/English and other Europeans' living standards ?
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MarcusAureliusII wondered why Russia isn't concerned about Iran building nuclear weapons - be it a real or an imagionary threat. Like, one day such arms may get into the hands of Chechen-like terrorists and be used against Russia.
1. We are concerned. But much less than "the West", for two reasons.
First reason is Russia is friends with the muslim world.
Throughout history we clashed muslim interests only 3 times: Took land from Persia and created a 2nd Azerbajan (the 1st one still exists - check the map); took Crimea and all seaside coast up to Turkey - from Turkey in the 18th century (modern day Ukraine and sea-side part of Georgia); Chechnya recently, which was not so much Chechnya itself but radicals from Afghanistan operating there.
So we don't see a problem here. Chechnya does not want to be Afghanistan, you will be surprised but at the moment they don't want independence from Russia either. Not at all.
Georgian army fled in this war, not so much because they were scared of us, but because they spotted the first regiment of the 58th Russian army - Chechen batallion "Vostok". Chechens fight our side, first time since the Chechen war. On their own will - this is dear.
Azerbajan is an independent country, we can't anymore "return" it back to origin.
It is their own business to stand up for themselves.
Neither can we "return back" Crimea to Turkey, and they understand it. Ukraine took Crimea from Russia by now.
Georgia keeps Adjaria coast - ports of Poti and Batumi - it is modern day Georgia - if there is a problem there - it is btw Georgia and Turkey, beyond us.
Why should we quarrel with the muslim world? No intentions whatsoever. Russia itself consists of about 30% muslims, at minimum, they are our people, Russians.
"Russian Russians" you need to search in for Russia with a microscope.
And we are friends with Turkey, even that Turkey is NATO. No problem. We don't border with them immediately, this is enough.
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Chill0 do you have any idea what life was like for the average Brit or Frenchman during their colonial periods? Why do you think there was a French Revolution at the end of the 18th century? Read Dickens and that will tell you about the middle of the 19th century. Watch old re-runs of Upstairs/Downstairs and that will show you something about the late 19th and early 20th century in Britain if you pay close attention to what went on beyond the Bellamys and their circle of aristocratic friends. They don't talk about this in the history books. It makes for grim reading.
You are playing games with words when you talk about Iran. Erased from the pages of time, anti-Zionism. These are just code words for wipe Israel out, kill them, push them into the sea the way the Arabs used to talk. Besides having unflinching support by the US, Israel is a major nuclear power in its own right. It has the ability to erase Iran from the world forever at any time within a matter of hours. That goes for what it could do to the rest of the middle east too. As Iran plays its dangerous game, it has put itself in very grave risk. Once the perception of Iran's threat becomes more than Israel or the US can tolerate, whether that threat is real or a deliberately created illusion which is what Saddam Hussein may have created, its fate will be sealed. And there won't be a damned thing anyone including Russia or the UN will be able to do about it. The delusions of Iran's leaders could well end in what is in effect, national suicide.
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MAII @ 68
I would not dream of disagreeing with you regards the rest of your comment.
Yes, most Europeans with the intelligence to read and understand history are well aware of past failings and our development as a continent of disparate nattions, languages and tribes has a very inglorious past.
You write as if we present day Europeans should be ashamed of our history but I cannot be responsible for what my ancestors and fellow citizens' ancestors did 200, 300 or even a thousand years ago. No more should you, as an American be ashamed of what your forefathers did to the indigenous Red Indian Tribes of the Plains of the midwest.
You wrote: "As the dominant power in Europe, America has kept the peace for the last 63 years. But it has been at enormous cost. The question America should ask Europe is why should this continue and why should it continue at cost to the American taxpayer?"
As I have tried to explain to you, America has a wish to be the world's leading nation. That's not your fault, it kind of comes with the territory of being, still, the world's largest and most productive economy. America spends billions of dollars on Defense and it is not all aimed at protecting and defending Europe.
The US has just taken it's 5th Fleet out of mothballs and this fleet is used in the Caribbean - hardly of strategic value to Europe.
The USA is heading for a showdown on many fronts: North Korea, Iran, Russia, Venezuela, even, perhaps China, if Taiwan were to be invaded - to name but a few hotspots that will come back to bite the US in the rear..
Believe me, the USA is not going to win any wars on its own - Korea proved that in the 1950s and Vietnam has got to have been a salutary lesson for not being able to go it alone for the Americans surely?
If war does come to America (and I am sure that Dick Cheney won't bring you to it between now and November although a '"weak" US President if you all elect Obama might just give North Korea the feeling that it can take on South Korea with impugnity!) I am quite certain that the only real friends the Americans will have will be Europe's nations and their global friends such as the former Dominion Nations of "Old Europe".
America in the 1930s tried to be isolationist as an attack on US soil was unthinkable. Unfortuantely, in this more modern day and age, ballistic missiles can do as much damage to American soil as any invading army and, indeed, there would be no need to invade the US as territorial wars are of inconsequence these days as Georgia has just proven.
American needs more friends than it does more enemies so I would suggest that your vitriol for Europe is not what you government think and if, heaven forbid, the US needs friends, I am sure that it will be NATO and your European Allies that the Americans will be seeking out for succor.
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WebAliceinwonderland you really are in Wonderland. You are utterly delusional. Russia not at war with militant Islam? You must be joking. What do you think Afghanistan was about? What do you think Beslam was about? What do you think the theater in Moscow was about? If they had hydrogen bombs instead of AK47s and hand grenades they'd have used them instead. They have no regard for anyone's lives including their own, they are far more interested in the next world than this one. Do you think that they have forgotten that Russia imposed godless Communism on the five central Asian Islamic republics for decades? They hate Russia even more than they hate America and they will not hesitate to attack it with whatever weapons they have at their disposal including Iranian or Pakistani manufactured nuclear weapons if they can get them. Russia is no safer from them than anyone else is, we are all at risk. Don't believe it? Ask the people of Kenya, Saudi Arabia, Bali, even Pakistan itself. They all thought they were safe too...and learned the hard way just how wrong they were.
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Named Erion gave here a pretty lecture on what Kosovo is; boils down to - "the land was historically Albanian, they lived there before barbarian slavs moved in and built a handful of medieval times churches."
I won't dispute land ownership in times minus 1000 years from 2008 back.
May be indeed there were muslim mosques there in BC... Careful excavations, good archeaologists...surely some clay pot pieces may be found, of BC, that can be attributed as unquestionable Albanian.
I agree with one point of the lecture - indeed Russians don't equal Georgia case and Kosovo case.
To follow modern land attribution mode a la Named Erion, why, let's look into Georgia's history! Let's find in it a period when the state was bigger than 35 km around Tbilisi!
On the time scale backwards, Abhasia and South Osetia would be the most recent Georgia's acquisitions, Stalin's order.
Georgia didn't get either by time-honoured - in bad old times of course - manner of battle and war. No no. Came as a present.
Also cross out the side of modern Georgia bordering Azerbajan. Sorry, this is arabs, their land. Fought away by bad old methods from Iran, by barbarian Abhasians.
Abhasia was much bigger a country in the region than Georgia, constantly fought, and took lands. In fact, fared very well.
Georgia was a tiny fly, couldn't fight, focused on saving own culture and language, surrounded by very militaristic neighbours: arabs, turks and surprise surprise Abhasia.
In the 18th century Russian Empress Catherine the 2nd fought and battled Turkey, and snatched from it a nice piece - all Georgia's current sea-side. Still inhabited by muslims. Not one cross in those cemeteries. Only half-moons. Ports of Poti and Batumi and much up in-land. The so-called "Russian province of Adjaria." Catherine joined it up to Georgia for ease of managing the both. Georgia was a Russian province as well. Not called "Georgia" of course, simply - Tiflis province.
There were times in history when the two went together. One country - inc. Georgia and Abhasia. Only it was then not called "Georgia". It was called "Tsardom of Abhaz and Georgians." Note - Abhaz first.
So what is historically Georgian in the area?
If not for the battles fought by Abhasians and Russians, Saakashvili would be a muslim today. He'd be either part of Iran, or part of Turkey. A good chance he'd be simply an Abhasian, since Abhasia owned Georgia for 2 centuries.
To a Russian eye Georgian claims on Abhazia sound same bizarre, like, like if some? Kyrghystan would claim now its "territorrial integrity of borders including the whole USSR."
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WebAliceinwonderland ¤72:
"Russia is friends with the muslim world". Where did you get that guff?
Russia has problems with muslims all around in Eurasia: North Ossetia, Chechnya (still - did you note the bombs going off there during the S Ossetia conflict?), Ignouchia, Khazakstan, Ouzbekia, Kirghistan and ... have I forgotten anywhere? (OK I've mis-spelt some). The whole area is bubbling away - and Russia wants to keep control - by force, of course.
The basis of the US/Russia problem - which has surfaced in S Ossetia - was the failure of the US to extend a hand of friendship to Russia when the Berlin wall came down.
Russia has long felt resentment; but recently has felt that she can wield economic power, through oil and gas supplies. However, Georgia and others are trying to bypass Russia in supplying oil and gas to the West. The US is encouraging their actions: ergo, Russia felt they had to act, decisively.
It will be interesting to see what this famous "Inquiry" into the origins of the conflict in S Ossetia brings forth.
I'm not holding my breath expectantly.
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64. elengeo
According to a notable Austrian historian Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer in his work 'Geschichte der Halbinsel Morea während des Mittelalters', averred that demographic continuity in Greece was interrupted brutally by successive waves of invasion and migration between the 6th and 8th century by Slavs.
This is enough of a precedent of creating a slav state by migration for serbs.
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Menedemus;
History is not something to proud of or ashamed of, it is something to be studied, understood, and learned from. If you don't, you run the risk of making the same mistakes people before you made when you might have avoided them. History is not something that can be changed. It can simply be falsified or ignored. That for example, is what the Japanese have done in regards to WWII and what the Germans did for a long time. There is hardly a nation or culture that does not have an inglorious past. The question is will we be condemned to a tragic future because we refused to accept it?
NATO was created to provide a common defense against a common enemy. There was a very dangerous common enemy and most NATO members were too weak to contribute their fair share. Now that enemy is vanquished and many NATO members are much stronger economically. But there is a new common enemy, Islamic terrorism in many guises including Iran, al Qaeda, and at least we believed Iraq. The fear of Iraq was that it had WMDs it would deliver to al Qaeda. This was of obvious real concern to America having just been attacked by al Qaeda only recently. But it was not a concern to most of Europe. They did not see Iraq as part of the common enemy and not only did some of America's so called "friends" France and Germany in particular refuse to fight the common enemy, they worked to prevent America from fighting it too. They didn't merely abstain at the UN, they worked to create as much pressure as possible to prevent an American led attack. Why? For one thing, European governments had been infiltrated. George Holloway was proof of that. If even a fraction of what Ameican legislators said about him was true, he would surely have been indicted in the US save for not wanting to sour relations with the UK. Many Americans including me believe that despite the words of sympathy after 9-11, many Europeans actually wanted to see the US attacked again. Europe proved it is no friend to America. Chirac said so again and again in his calls for the EU to confront America. We saw it, we heard it, and we saw millions of Europeans cheer him all over Europe. It's why he and Schroeder were re-elected when they had previously been behind in the polls.
Does the US need foreign assistance to fight a major war? It would help but when push comes to shove, if it had to the US could go it alone. If it had to it could drop Iraq, Afghanistan, and a lot of other current commitments like hot potatoes in an emergency. It could also re-institute a military draft and recruit another million soldiers. But that may not be necessary. American air and sea power has advanced to the point where the real threat to America's enemies will come from the skies. Usually, America attacks first at night when its enemies are most vulnerable and it immediately establishes complete military ownership of the sky. After that, it can see and destroy practically anyting. There is no hiding. America probably spends more on military matters than the rest of the world combined. After Pearl Harbor it felt it had to and its still feels that way. That may never change.
Europe should think about meeting its own defenisve military needs itself. The questions I posed above are sure to be raised by the public, the press, and Congress before a whole lot longer. Why would America want to protect the interests of France and Germany as an example? How wold that advance the security of the US and why would it be worth the cost and the risk? Personally, I cannot think of even one single reason.
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George Galloway, not Holloway
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The US government announces plans for the takeover of failing mortgage giants Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae.
I just watched I.O.U.S.A and my wondering is:
How two bankrupt mortgage giants can be taken over by a bankrupt system of governance and society?
it is going to make a whole mega bubble...
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MarcusAureliusII @79
There is a flaw in your argument.
The US is the main protagonist in the fight against Moslem extremism.
NATO was created to provide mutual support and on the occasion of 9/11, French and British Fighter Planes were sent to the US to support the USAFF with defence of your nation.
Since 9/11 some European nations have supported the US invasion of Iraq and are still there on the ground.
The US-led action in Afghanistan has been even more widely supported by European allies of the US.
Since then, Russia has quietly grown in confidence and has re-emerged as an aggressive nation wishing to stamp it's foot in Europe but Russia purpose is to part of a multi-polar world and be the counterweight to the American desire to be the world's leading nation. Russian's enmity is not towards Europe - it is and always has been American dominance of Europe and the world.
Furthermore, as of today it is reported that China has stolen a march on the USA as it has been the first foreign country to sign a contract for extracting new oil and developing new wells in Kurdistan/North Iraq. So much blood spilt by the Americans in Iraq and the Chinese come in and nick your oil . . . . boy-oh-boy is that going to smart!
The US is no longer a dominant country and is competing with Russia and China for control of the world's fossil fuel reserves which are diminishing.
Like it or not, for the US to compete with Russian and China, the US is going to continue to need the support of the Europeans in Iraq, Afghanistan, probably in dealings with Iran, probably when North Korea decided to invade South Korea and reopen the Korean War that has been on hold for 50 years but never settled and, in America's backyard you have the problem of Venezuela and the fact that Russian Naval Ships are going to be enjoying the hospitality of Venezuela and participate in joint-exercises.
It's become a very volatile world and the main object of enmity is the USA. Vote in McCain or Obama - it isn't going to make difference your enemies are still going to be there and doing underhand things to the American's disadvantage . . . just like the Chinese have done in Iraq as of today!
If I were American, I think I would be courting the Europeans and not belittling them.
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MarcusAureliusII wrote it is utterly dilusional to think that Russia is an exception and not at war with militant islam like all the rest.
However any time they were aggressive we saw the reason why, I mean, here in Russia.
Moscow apartment houses were blown up at peak of Chechnya war. Same - with the undeground passage under Gorky street.
The Moscow theatre taken hostage - the Chehen girls standing on the stage with bomb belts put it out clear:"independence for Chechnya or else."
Afghanistan - they didn't attack us. We broke there ourselves, like total idiots, into the wasp nest. What did we do there, and for what - nobody can remember now. Apparently wanted to be like "the big ones", like USA.
I remember my school friends, boys, all wanted to go fight in Afghanistan. For what - nobody knew. Simply - a war - yahoo! Luckily Yeltsin had some brains stopped it, said we are out.
One consolation is Afghanee taxi drivers in London strangely keep good memoirs of Russians. I twice wanted to get out of the taxi, realising drivers understood I am Russian, but nothing of the kind.
"We love Russia! " Like "eh? well, thanks of course, but - didn't we invade you?" - Oh yes you did, but you were so good fighters, fought so well, nice to remember! "
So you see you never know what turns against you what for.
Beslan school you mentioned, - yes, one that stands out. We didn't see any motivation. There was no "official war" on.
It did look as a revenge from terrorists to Russians, ungrounded.
The parents of the murdered kids though see a reason. School was Russian, allright, but it also happened to be 100% Osetian. While terrorists "have no nationality", true, but they were Georgians.
While the school was kept hostage for 3 days Osetians ran around the town trying to find any Georgians on the street to kill.
For them there was nothing"abstract" and un-understandable there, all clear as day-light.
You may wish to be blind not to see your twin towers are revenge for USA in Iraq. This is not less "dilusional" or simply - your illusions. All the world knows it is because you poked in the wasp nest.
Now US stands, in our Black Sea, with the 18 ships combined NATO armada, high experts in national relations. Humanitarian help lies picturesque on board the ships, for several days, not one box even shifted to the side, after all pictures were taken and TV crews completed their reports "see - it is water bottles - and blankets - and personal hygiene kits - as declared - delivered."
You are there to threaten Russia, nothing else. Came to help out "young democracy".
FYI - this "young democracy" you cultivated -makes war like the grown ups. But does not like to face the consequances, like the grown-ups do.
As an example - 4 days ago fired Russian embassy from Tbilisi, cut diplomatic relations. Yesterday - what have we got? A sweet letter, informing that Russians now don't need visas to Georgia, not anymore, "to ease trade and travel" we can now simply buy a stamp on the border.
Means Georgia understood that 1 million Georgians working in Russia have now nowhere to get Russian visas from.
Took them 3 days.
What a two-faced young democracy! On the surface - they hate us - at least - do their best to demsonstrate this to the world - underhand - they want to keep all as usual, jobs, trade, travel, as if nothing happened!
Next time they'd know that cutting diplomatic relations is a serious step between countries. What a joker the man is.
One thing I agree - if you wished to drown pre-historic relics Russian Black sea fleet - you can. So what do you do there?
Simply keep the world nervous about occasional happening of WW3.
Black Sea is small aquarium, any move interpreted mistakingly - rockets would take off, not awaiting while a ship is hit. Nobody waits, I am not to explain you that two navy fleets' fight these days starts and ends in exactly 2 minutes. In fact, in 1 minute 20 seconds, at the distance we stand to each other. And the next step? I don't want to continue.
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karolina, coming from east Germany would not make Serbs German, as that place was not always German. Until about 13th century east Germany had Slavic population, with German settlers in between. Some Slavs migrated away, others got assimilated into Germans. There is still a small Slavic remnant there called Sorbs.
MaxSceptic if you really think that ethnic and racial insults should not be moderated and banned because censorship is bad... well... you better read the rules for these blogs for which your taxes contributed maybe a penny.
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Rob_Hob @84,
I can deal with ignorant racists and bigots. Self-righteous and self-appointed censors are more insidious.
"A plague on both their houses" (or is that an ethnic or racial insult?)
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rob_hob,
a name doesnt make connection at all, bc we put names when we like, as we like, and interpret them how we like.
fact is that before serbs were located in between Ukraine and Gerogia.
Kosovo is supposed to be the land of serbian churches and religion..
i got a question, before the arrival of serbs, did the native inhabitants which definitely were not serbs and were part of the byzantine empire had their own orthodox churches? where are those churches?
thus any claim to the land can be made by the people living in that land at a present time at a present location. and history is accordingly adjusted.
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i am for free speech..
i
f anyone cannot control him/herself or see it as a provocation/or offence is his own problem.
in islam women are seen as provocing man if they dont cover themselves. thus they must be raped.. is this right way of logic..
if i am offensive to someone, i have to be banned??? NO WAY, NEVER
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Hi!
Before judging Russia, one should to make himself known about what happened. I could not understand, what is discussing in EU, if there is not the primary information about the conflict (from both sides + from an independent side). Primary means not analysis, but facts. I see not this facts in EU.
1. Russia has not territorial ambitions concerning to other countries. Russia has historical relations with Ossetia, Abkhazia and Georgia. The forces of Russia were in the region (South Ossetia) accordingly to the Peacekeeper's Mandate (from the Agreement signed in 1993 or so, signed by Russia, Georgia and Ossetia, you can find it in Internet. Conflict between Georgia and South Ossetia has started a very long time ago and the sides was coming to an agreement of peacekeeping). So Russia as a peacekeeper _is obliged_ to use the force, if one of the sides breaks the peace.
2. Georgia has broken the peace. Not just has broken, but in the matter, there is no explains for which.
To attack the civilians' houses intending to back South Ossetia under the Georgia State authority. Would you back to someone's power after your home was shelled? Would you acknowledge the method of shellding houses as an appropriate for a reunification in a country? How could the Georgian government think, it is right? There was another goal.
There is more: 1) Georgia knew about the Mandate and break the agreement (the law). So it sought Russia to use force (to blame Russia after it use and more, as we can see now) or it thought that USA would give them freedom from the law; 2) Georgia struck Russia's peacekeeper camp. This situation was not noticed or want not to be noticed. Peacekeepers (Russians) was murdered deliberately. That means Georgia began the war on Russia. What if a third country shells a military camp of Great Britain, of Germany, Israel? What would it's government do?
What kind of excessiveness was in reaction of Russia? Everybody knows, that Georgia is a tiny country. So from one town one can shelled another town. That is why Russia’s forces came to some towns of Georgia. Furthermore if the goal of Russia was to change the government or to conquer Georgia, it has be done in one-two days (because of the size of the country and of superior force), before the world could react. So the goal was another. In addition I can offer you to acquaint yourself with the military complex “Grad”, that was used by Georgia to shell Tskhinvali. Grad was designed in Russia and is a heavy arms system of high destruction: hitting range – 20 km, hitting area – 42 000 square meters. So using Grad’s Georgia launch an attack on Russian peacekeepers (who have not heavy arms) and on Tskhinvali.
Could I ask those, who think, Russia acted excessive, to explain, what were they do if they were Russia?
3. So territorial integrity of Georgia was inviolable by Russia before the aggression of Georgia. And after too. It is people of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, who made it’s will clear at the referendum (democracy – power of people), that it want s to live in a sovereign state. So, Russia acknowledge the will of the nations. But EU not. Is this double tiny nations not good to express their will? Did they make if wrong? No.
It is incomprehensible why EU and USA treat Georgia so warm after if shelled civilians. It is incomprehensible, how come that I should explain, that to kill civilians on purpose is intolerable and is a crime. And in this case it is a state government, who started to do so. Perhaps USA and EU has an interest to let this situation be this way. I see no other possibilities. Media do not just show what happened.
4. Russia does not want to make yourself more important using oil or gas. Russia wants respect from other counties, as they are respected in Russia. Those, who listen to the media and does not know a history and what exactly people says in country about some situations, would always be using as the tools in games of those politicians, who tries to gain a profit from suffer of another side.
5. If you read some history books, you could know, that many countries (as well in Caucasus) have asked the Emperor of Russian Empire to be a part of Russia. That way began good relations in Russia between all it’s parts. But always there are those, who dislikes the authority and wants to make a revolution. Nut this in not the line and not in mind of the nations in Russia.
6. Russia has enough territory, resources (not just minerals) and people to live alone, but why should the world divide? Why USA and EU does not want to hear Russia? Why people in this comments are glad as the Russian stocks and markets sink?
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Oh please stop scaring me with muslims!
I am Russian, yes, not so break-neck not to notice general trend in the world entirely, but still.
We had 6 muslim states in the USSR, allright? Five ending "- stan" and one ending "-djan" (Azerbajan) - to make it simpler, the tricky names.
We grabatised them in times Russian Empire, which was bad enough, and then - yes, like MarcusAureliusII wrote - also subjected them to the horrors of communism. Approx.
However they are not so unhappy with these horrors as you think.
People there were, like Russians, very poor, and, like Russians, they believe in the "all-powerful Tsar". God's representative on earth, who will sort all out. No democracy. We don't understand what it is - neither do them. Respect for strong power - this is what we have in common. And being poor.
And not likely to dispute decisions of the man on top.
When Russia grabatises things - it is not your Western colonies, when you come and explain how to live and that you know better. We never touched local rulers, never replaced them. Never touched local religion, customs, language. Never improved nobody. All we demanded is that they agree they are "ours". And - taxes.
(Taxes, by the way, we never got. All who we grabbed happened to be poorer than us. Absolutely nothing to take, you can only add there).
When we first time tried to impose communism - an abstract thing - a religion -you know how did it end. We learned, from own mistakes - never impose your abstract views on aliens.
If you think we suppressed and repressed our 14 republics - why did they emerge out of USSR not exactly in a ship-shape economically, true, but still each with own language, universities and schools and books - in local language, libraries, writers, all kept their cultures, religions, and natural native inclinations. Each has own history excavated and proved and written and learned in school to be proud of, own songs, poetry. Where there were no alphabets - we created them, from whatever small they had! From songs and words wrote down their legends and history, something they can stand on, to recognise themselves as a nation.
In fact USSR made an enormous effort they did keep culture, nourished it, you simply don't know it.
And this includes the 6 muslim republics we had. They are now our safety belt. They are muslim - do you deny it? - their mosques - you should have seen - extraordinary wonderful - one of the biggest and nicely intricately in-laid, mozaics, in the world. And they are peaceful. I mean - they are peaceful by nature. Not only in USSR times when simply all were good neighbours because scared to death.
Somehow we haven't quarreled with them since we divorced, for 15 years. They don't excavate Soviet soldiers' graves, don't put on NATO missiles on their ground, there are no nasty assaults flying back and forth non-stop - and what more do you want from a neighbour? They don't attack us, we don't attack them. We don't teach each other how to live proper.
Note even very pro-Western Azerbajan - the richest of all ex-USSR muslim states.
We could have bombed away their tube that goes via Georgia to the West!
Even they didn't say us a word now. Not a wink. Extremely cool nerve people.
Imagine how would the Baltic states have screamed in similar circumstances! Azerbajan, like:"Haven't touched our tube? Dear crazy neighbour. Good. If you did - we'll take you to the wall for it. But you haven't. So."
Extremely wise people. And we are thankful. We noticed.
You might have not seen peaceful muslims - no, surely you know, individually, but I mean there are whole peaceful muslim countries on earth.
These can set the trend, not the radical ones. There are many people there. Poor. But many. And their mosques are much-much older than the ones of the modern radicals. By thousand years older. They know what muslim religion is. Somehow it does not make them to be revengeful or aggressive !
They are our hope.
Otherwise - exactly as you wrote - prepare for the deadly fight.
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Karolina001
That was very interesting about Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac today. I wonder what the markets will make of it tomorrow. The US government cannot really go bankrupt. All it has to do is print more money. And it will. Expect a huge round of inflation and a sharp fall in the value of the debt foreigners like China hold on America. I've been predicting this for a long time and it is coming true. I've arranged my own personal finances accordingly and plan to make a lot of money out of it. Also expect rising interest rates and a falling stock market. But not just yet. Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac need more capital to make new loans. That was the purpose of the US government taking them over. How many bad mortgage loans are there and what are they worth? Nobody knows but if the US banking system were to collapse, the entire financial structure of the world would collapse with it like a house of cards. The US Treasury and Federal Reserve Bank is committed to perventing that from happening. Good thing at least someone knows what they are doing even if Bush, McCain, Obama, and Congress don't. They are not the one pulling the levers of financial power now. BTW, the US still has a 14 trillion dollar GDP economy, hardly bankrupt. It's 4 times as large as China's with less than one quarter as many people. The greatest machine for producing wealth the world has ever seen. Between a quarter and a third of the world's wealth with less than 5% of its population. Comparative GNP numbers would probably be even more impressive.
Webaliceinwonderland, at least some of us think that the apartments were bombed by the KGB to stir up anti Chechyn feelings in Russia. It was never really explained. At least not convincingly. You are dead wrong about why al Qaeda attacked the US. They attacked according to their own explanation which is likely true because the US military occupied sacred ground in Saudi Arabia when it was trying to defend it against Saddam Hussein. Saudi Arabia is the holiest place in the world for Moslems. It's where Mecca and Medina are.
So you don't like Georgians going to Russia to work. No telling how many of them are terrorists trying to infiltrate, gather intelligence, and then kill people. Then you also understand why Israel excludes Palestinian workers from entering Israel. Bravo.
The USSR invaded Afghanistan because the puppet government was not to its liking and it wanted a different puppet government. That's what touched off the invasion. I'm sure you are aware that Russians used poison gas to kill Afghanis during the war. The US organized, armed, and trained the Afghan rebels. It equipped them with stinger missiles. People who go to Afghanistan uninvited eventually are forced to leave. It took Britain a hundred years to learn that lesson. If the US is asked to leave by the majority of Afghans, it will...and if they become a threat again they will be bombed to dust. But that won't happen. No sane human being wants to live under the rule of the Taleban.
The Black Sea is not your Black Sea, it borders several countries. This is the kind of talk that leads Russia to war.
All of Russia is a pre-historic relic. And it will stay that way until Russia gives up the idea of buiding an empire it does not need, cannot have, will not be accepted, and becomes a democratic nation ruled by laws. I don't see any evidence of that happening anytime soon.
Menedemus, NATO was created to prevent the USSR from taking over Western Europe the way it took over Eastern Europe. It was billed as a "mutual defense pact but in reality it was a legal mechanism for the projection of American military power on the soil of Europe until the threat ended. In 1991 it ended. What were the French and British fighter planes supposed to do in the US skies after 9-11, shoot down any more hijacked civilian airliners? That was just a token gesture and you know it. You also know France and Germany are not pulling their weight in NATO.
Russia doesn't want a multipolar world, it wants a unipolar world with Moscow at its center. It will be lucky if it can hold its own country together. Russia is a disaster. It's population is aging, generally in poor health, and declining in numbers. China may see an opportunity to occupy land along their mutual border. That's been speculated about before. If Russia has a war, it may be with China over land.
Russia is not a competitor of the US. Russia sells oil and gas to Europe. Russia has 12,000 hydrogen bombs that can blow up the world. That's it. It can't even manufacture a decent car without outside help. China is the place the US manufactures its products which would cost too much in labor, and in making them safe for workers and the environment if they had been made in the US. We pay their workers $30 a month instead of American workers $30 an hour to assemble electonic toys and sew shirts. We don't have to install expenisve fume scrubbers or waste water treatment plants there, we just spew the poison into the air and water and let it kill them. If they get hurt, sick, or die as a result, we don't get sued. They are also not America's competitor. Europe is America's competitor and a very weak one at that. It's technology overall is relatively primitive, its labor costs are huge, its bureaucracy and restrictive regulations monumental. It's a lousy place to do business. Thank you Europe for being and staying that way. Viva the EUrocracy.
If China can build a few oil wells in Kurdish Iraq, good for them. If North Korea attacks South Korea, they will be vaporized in ten minutes. The US has made it clear that an attack on South Korea would likely get a nuclear response. Were the US to pull out of Asia militarily, Japan has the means to become a serious nuclear power within months or a few years at most. Nice thought. It would scare everyone in Asia, especially China.
Russians can sail their junky old navy, fly their antiquated prop planes, do whatever they like in Venezuela. Oil is fungible. Venezuela has to sell theirs to someone. If not the US, then whomever it sells to will stop buying from someone else who will in turn sell to the US. That's the way oil markets work.
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MarcusAureliusII @ #90
I do not understand your reasoning. Your anti-European stance is vitriolic but has no real logic to it.
You wrote: "Menedemus, NATO was created to prevent the USSR from taking over Western Europe the way it took over Eastern Europe. It was billed as a "mutual defense pact but in reality it was a legal mechanism for the projection of American military power on the soil of Europe until the threat ended."
And if Russia as of now were to extend its power into Eastern Europe would that not reawaken the need for NATO and for US assistance to continue to project American power on European soil?
Your threats of nuclear attack upon North Korea is irrational as the USA could have done that in the Korean War with impunity - now China, who remain a key ally of North Korea, is a nuclear power and would retaliate so I hardly give your threats any credence whatsoever.
Japan is as likely to become a nuclear power as Germany. There is no public appetite for it despite the threat to Japan from North Korea. The Japanese rely on the US for defence too but you do not castigate them for costing the US taxpayer for the defence of Japan??
The logic of Germany joining NATO was the manpower of Germany was going to be the cannon fodder that the USA needed to throw into the path of the USSR war machine as it rolled into Europe proper and whilst the US hummed and hawed about using tactical theatre-based nuclear weapons to stop the Soviet/Warsaw Pact armies in their tracks. So much for Germany not carrying its weight!
Meanwhile, the French and UK Jet Fighters were there in a flash post 9/11 to do exactly what you think they were there to do - shoot down any passenger jets that posed a threat to American Cities during the days that immediately followed 9/11.
America was in a funk immediately post-9/11 and had no idea what had gone on, who the enemy was and what to do. The term headless chickens epitomised the Americans in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.
The UK and France at least tried to give you some aid . . . if you choose to ignore that friendship then more fool you! Other Americans have had some grace to at least publicly state their appreciation of European support at the time of 9/11 and its immediate aftermath and they do not forget that of the 9/11 deaths there were people of many faiths and many nationalities that died in the twin towers collapse.
If you wish to denigrate China and dismiss them as no threat to the US then you're a fool. They are quietly getting on with dominating the world and doing so whilst stupid Americans bitch about their lot and how everyone is against them. The Chinese have really stolen a march on the USA with gaining the sole proprietary contract for prospecting new Iraqi oil. For all the sacrifices and loss of US Military lives in Iraq that has got to really gnaw at US self-confidence.
Despite your analysis of how oil markets work – the new Iraqi oil is going to get shipped direct to China where it is going to be used by the Chinese in supporting the expansion of their manufacturing. If I were an American I think that would really hurt my feelings - all that sacrifice and the Iraqis give you a kick in the pants as a reward!
The trouble is that your isolationist and bigoted view of Europeans is just your opinion and not the opinion of all Americans who do understand that the volatile world we live in is very anti-American and the one continent that needs the Americans as much as the Americans need somebody to be their allies . . . is Europe.
Fortunately, my acquaintanceship with individual Americans has been that they are more favourable towards Europe than your writings. I have never met any anti-European American bigots such as you. One suspects that your views are singularly yours and I doubt that you speak for any large numbers of Americans.
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MaxSceptic, is free speech a right to say anything and everything without regard for others? Is it a right to insult based on race/religion/ethnicity? Or are there limits to free speech based on social norms? Society is much more complicated than extremism, which happens when one point, as for example freedom of speech, is emphasised to the exclusion of others. When one person's right impinges on another's, one axiom arguments and justifications fail. If you disagree that there is substance to my complaint, point it out... and that is reasonable in principle at least... but to argue I have no right to complain, is nonsense, as I DO. I'm excercising my right to free speech, to point out that bigotry should have no place here. I do not see how I have even tried to censor anybody... they are still free to say what they want, let alone be self appointed whatever...
karolina, nobody is getting banned. Some posts maybe deleted and/or not posted.
karolina, when you make statements, PLEASE provide evidence, i.e. a link, quotations, names, etc. So how did Serbs come from where you say they did... and how is it in Asia? And why do they speak a language which is very similar to central and easter European ones?
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Rob_Hob
in islam women are seen as provocing man if they dont cover themselves up. thus they must be raped.. is this right way of logic..
if you get offended by what i say, then i get offended by what you say.. what is acceptable for you, it is not acceptable for me, and viceversa.
if you dont agree with this logic then by self-justifying is no solution
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83 alice or land,
wonder, no wonder you make people hate you, russians.
Do you think your silly lies serve to PEACE????????? NO. And you need peace or you will be put to peace !
how dare you to speak about Beslan. You fool!!!!!11111
And moreover mention Georgia there. Don't you respect your GEorgian Tsar PETER the first???????????? HAHAHA
I know now you are furiouse but this is truth. Wellknown truth.
Now anout Beslan and russian "Kursk" (submarine), and theatre and the block of flats and murdered journalists, and wars here and wars there and exterminated peoples of dagestan, chechnia and lots and lots of more are the pursuit of your KGB president Putin. And everyone knows about. You just have no shame, and you never had, like you never ever wanted peace. You are demons of war, this is really the only thing you know (more or less).
You are so much ignorant that you make people hate you.
Look at your intellectuals, most of them Jewish, Armenians, other tribes (as you consider them) and quite few russians considering how many you are.
Did you want to hear all theses.
I will keep your masterpiece 83 and publish it. You will have a great fame.
Don't think that all around are fools. You are the only one here. Afgans love you russians, this is amazing. There are probably so many people laughing at you.
Read what people are discussing, how much they are educated, at what levels of professionalism are they and you are coming here with your Georgians in Beslan and Afgans loving you, russians.
I know I should have ignored you, but you are so much poisonous.
To the rest of the society here I beg my pardon.
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You 83,
Don't scare us,, haaa
Be scared of your own wretched lives there. As if you are not running away from heavens in russia.
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Menedemus
If Russia were to extend its power into Eastern Europe, that would not be a threat to he US. The USSR was an international threat because it advanced a seductive ideology which promised prosperity and social justice to all. That found sympathetic adherents all over the world, people ready to fight and die for it in every corner of the globe, even in the US itself. That myth was exploded at the demise of the USSR. Russian domination of its neighbors will be seen as nothing more than a regional empire with limited reach. It may pose a real threat to neighboring Western Europe but not to the US. More likely than not, it will prove an even greater burden to Russia than the Soviet evil empire was to the USSR. The Soviets not only had to subsidize their colonies, they had to militarily defend them too. The USSR was beaten by bankrupting it. The nuclear arms race which President Reagan escalated over the howling objections of many Western Europeans was what did the trick, the final straw that broke the camel's economic back. (Have you already forgotten the anger over Reagan Europe expressed seemingly endlessly when he was doing it?) Take it from me, the Americans are much smarter than the Europeans and always were. It's just that Americans won't say it and Europeans won't admit it. But the evidence is conclusive enough.
The threats to nuke North Korea if it attacks the south are not mine, the US government made it rather clear about 5 or 6 years ago. As in Europe, it's the only way for a relatively smaller land force to prevent itself from being overwhelmed by far greater numbers even if they are poorly equipped and trained. The efficiency of nuclear weapons for killing large numbers of people over wide areas quickly is the only real advantage the US has over North Korea if the Americans and South Koreans are not to risk large numbers of casualties. Why won't China counterattack the US with nuclear weapons? Because it now has a reason to want to survive. This was the goal Henry Kissinger persuaded President Nixon to pursue. China will not engage in certain national suicide over North Korea by engaging the US in nuclear war. North Korea is of far too little importance for that. Besides, it's bad business to go to war with your best customer who also owes you a lot of money.
The Japanese and Germans may not have any public appetite for becoming nuclear powers but they would change their tune if challenged with facing their enemies without the protection of America's nuclear umbrella.
West German troops would not have been able to stop the Warsaw pact from invading. Not for very long. Any land war in Europe would have become a nuclear war immediately. That is why the USSR wanted the US to agree to a pact which said neither side would be the first to use nuclear weapons and why the US said no. America's nuclear deterrant was the only thing which stood between Europe's freedom and enslavement as Soviet colonies as Eastern Europe was.
If France and the UK wanted to support the US after 9-11, they should have immediately launched a massive air attack on Afghanistan followed by a major invasion. They did neither. Their empty words and gestures were meaningless and worthless. The US government did not run around like a headless chicken. It knew amost immediately where the attack came from. What it did not do was take decisive action at once. It waited an entire month trying to give the Taleban government an opportunity to avoid war by surrendering al Qaeda. Instead, it was an opportunity for al Qaeda to move its most important assets to Pakistan where it has remained largely beyond American reach. By giving al Qaeda sanctuary in Pakistan, the US has committed a serious crime...against itself.
I don't see what China has stolen from the US. Everything China has become has been carefully planned by the US. Who do you think owns and profits from so many of those factories in China? That is why GDP is such a poor indicator of a nation's wealth. GNP is a much better indicator because it measures the repatriation of profits. China now has a stake in survival and the future it didn't have under the Mao regime and its aftermath. That is important for a nation that can build thermonuclear weapons. China is a threat to Europe because it can outmanufacture it hands down. Frankly I don't care. I think it's a great strategy.
America gets enough oil for its needs. Besides its own domestic production, it gets its oil from Canada, Mexico, Nigeria, and Venezuela. It does not import much oil from the middle east. That is a myth. China cannot expand at its current rate much longer. It will soon reach the end of this phase of its development. Scare mongering about it won't work. Except for Taiwan, China has few if any potential conflicts with the US. America's only demand of China insofar as Taiwan is concerned is that it settle its differences peacefully.
I can understand that you would like America to remain in Europe forever as things were and are. But that is costing Americans far too much money for little justification, no reward, and for the most part not even gratitude. There is no logical reason why it should continue. And I would point out that by opposing the American invasion of Iraq and the overthrow of Saddam Hussein's criminal regime, Europeans would have denied Iraqis the same chance at a free and prosperous future they themselves enjoyed when America liberated and protected Europe even if the Iraqis were unable to take advantage of that opportunity. Iraq might have been a very different story if Europe had cooperated with America instead of standing in its way. Europeans are by and large a truly despicable group of people. I don't see that they are worth defending by America any longer.
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I just understood why russia is ignoring everything and everyone.
Because, US and EU are discussing, arguing, disputing, tearing apart each other but what for, God knows only.
Even these small russians comming here and insulting human intelligence feel this. And that's why russia thinks the future of the world is russia.
I don't think US and EU have to divide anything, they both can have everything but being together.
I have noticed several brilliant minds here (sorry, I know you don't need my evaluations), all of you are good, why
do you fight? Seems you don't have any other problems but yourselves.
This is weakness for all of you. While the trouble is awaiting round the corner and all of you sense this.
Sorry for teaching, but this is very sad.
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Dear MarcusAureliusII, you took a historian's name - historians are supposed to be peaceful. Shuffle in papers, know things.
You know things, I quite agree with much what you said, about Russia as minimum -
I don't know about others.
Details about Russia you got allright, but you don't see the forest behind the trees.
So how about more peaceful talk, I am Alice in fact, and happen to be in Wonderland (OK, in Russia), so I wonder.
And, like Menedemus wrote, surely not all Americans are like that? May very well be you are yourself not "like that", "a thing when pronounced turns into a lie."
We actually were very fond of you, freedom and "western jeans", from behind the iron curtain. We were all wrong and knew that, was so nice to think that someplace in the world there is paradise. A hope, for orientation.
Exactly when you trained in schools with air alarms "Russians are coming" - we loved you very much. Ironic. But when we met with the West the reality proved to be uglier. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations Part 2!
It's not that KGB Putin thinks you are wrong. It's all Russia thinks you are wrong. People are not idiots.
And seems to me many more people in the world, not nessessarily "brain-washed by Russian propaganda" minor backwoods Russians.
When did USA become a monster, how did it happen? How did you allow this to happen!! You can choose your presidents, you are supposed to be able to think for themselves, not like in Russia, where old habits die slow, 90% of the country literally were slaves, as recent as 1861.
You can even call your presidents off !
What a crime - to the whole world - because you were a model for orientation, for others - and failed.
Who can be attracted by "we'll vaporize them in 10 seconds" , "will be bombed out to dust".
I am Russian - by your definition am supposed to cherish mad hopes of "building a new empire" - but I don't feel the need to constantly protect myself from other nations. You do.
Why are you so scared?
What's this inferiority complex that drives you to protect yourself?
Why we are so dilapidated, and ageing, and small in population - all true - skulking in our unobservable distances, from Baltic to Pacific, and with the Soviet time armament, and China indeed looking greedy eyes at huge empty lands, you name it, heaps of problems
- and not scared of you.
Can't you please get sure of yourselves, and stop threatening others because of your hallucination fears?
You are big, great and wonderful - may I remind that? You can indeed contunue printing the money, nobody will put you the bill, no suicide blonds, so what's wrong on God's green earth? What drives you?
Make jeans (poor China), sell Coke, print movies with happy end guaranteed - be the America world loves!
But you don't want to be loved anymore. This gives you no more pleasure.
You want to be scary, this is the change in you. You seem to physically crave for absolute power. Some inferiority complex combined with superiority complex - and no doctors.
Well, one thing I can tell you - while you are so, eh, well, in-correct, in percieving the world around - you are very very un-protected. To give a practical example, how did you say, "Russia can sail their junky old navy"? Yes, that was it.
Any such your expression makes my heart more at ease. America is scary. But still silly.
Gives one a chance.
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Elengeo, No 84 please cool down and repeat what you wanted to say.
I was able to make only 3 points, namely that you hate Russians, that all I say is lie, and that I am uneducated. And that you are going to publish my opinions worldwide.
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Sorry, correction, Elengeo's message was No 94, not 84.
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Webaliceinwonderland
"When did USA become a monster?"
The USA was always a monster. It was born a monster. Who but a monster could start alone in an endless dangerous unknown wilderness filled with unknown terrors including violent tribes of natives and in a mere 400 years not only conquer it but in the process create a nation BBC compares to the Roman Empire? Who are Americans? We are the children of the rejects of the entire world. We are the people your ancestors despised. We are the children, grandchildren, great grandchildren of the kinds of people others exploited, beat, enslaved, and murdered. We are the descendants of Jews who escaped your pogrums, your holocausts, the descendants of African slaves, of peasant Chinese, of indentured servants and religious outcasts. The children of starving Latinos who begged for a chance to pick fruit to earn a living. We are the progeny of those who were forced to leave their homes to face the unknown terrors or stay home and die. There are none worse than us in this world. From nowhere, it was we who beat the Japanese, the Germans and the Italians in World War II. Europe and Russia would like to believe it was Russia but Russians only served as cannon fodder to keep part of the Nazi wermacht tied down in the snow while the US with the help of Britain defeated the rest of the Germans. Do you know your government borrowed about 1 billion dollars from America to buy munitions to fight WWII and never paid back one cent? We assembled the people who invented the atom bomb and the hydrogen bomb. And the airplanes and rockets to deliver them with. And worst of all, most of our people beleive in an afterlife and are not afraid to die. Some actually believe there must be a nuclear world war for Christ to reappear and actually look forward to it.
All America really wanted was to be left alone but the world wouldn't allow it. Starting with the attack on Pearl Harbor came the realization that two oceans could no longer protect us from the kind of people that cast our ancestors out. The only way left for us to protect ourselves from them is through what we know best, violence. We have a very violent society, perhaps the most violent that ever was. No one will ever take our guns away from us. Every politician who tried committed instant political suicide. When America is attacked, no one anywhere is safe. In the war on terror, the US has shown remarkable and uncharacteristic restraint. Don't be fooled by Mr. Obama. If you listen to his words, he is no different from me. Yes he wants to withdraw American troops from Iraq...so that he can use them to attack Pakistan. If you are afraid of America, you have every right to be. Anyone who threatens it from North Korea to Iran has put themselves in grave danger. A lot of people learned that the hard way. Hitler, Hirohito, Saddam Hussein are just a few. King George III was another.
America is not afraid of Russia and never was. It was prepared to wipe out the entire human race to prevent a Soviet world. Better dead than red was America's slogan. There is no cause for war between us any longer but it could happen anyway. We still have the weapons. Russia's real war is with itself. It must soon decide just what kind of country it wants to be, what kind of relationship it wants to have with the rest of the world, what kind of future it will have. On its present course it is headed for even worse trouble than it had under Communism. Oil won't save it. Neither will trying to build an empire by invading other nations. But I for one do not want to see America interfere between Europe and Russia, it is their fight, not America's.
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By the way Russia, thanks for selling us Alaska for 87 million dollars. That was the best deal the US made since it bought the Louisiana Purchase from France for 15 million dollars. And you are not getting it back.
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To MarcusAureliusII ,
I just about agree with all of your comments 100%. I have seen alot of anti-american comments coming from alot of Europeons and 99% from Russians the only exception being #98's comment.Not just on here but on Have Your Say. I was born after the air raid drills at school but do remember the wall coming down, the end of the cold war. I am not anti-Russian or anti-european being of European decent myself but I think enough is enough.I had relatives that fought in Europe and in the Pacific Theatre in WWII and relatives that were until recently stationed in Europe but the cold war is over, time to bring home the troops and let Europe stand on its own two feet.
To WebAliceinwonderland :
The US has been accused of interferring to much at times and at times not enough. I agree we should have befriended and helped Russia more at the end of the cold war but I think the US felt Russia should find its own way to democracy and what democracy meant to them.We know once you have a taste of freedom you will not settle for less. Just hope Russia hasn't already lost it way.
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To MacusAurelius first - thank you, honest letter. Quality. Good staff.
It is hard to know from outside, you understand, what you think, what you think you are, and what drives you, as people.
I have American friends, but they are friends, therefore softer, won't say many things about Russia, and about themselves - in fact, I think, I never asked. When people are unknown they are more open.
I am interested. You are, kind of, a phenomenon.
As you wrote, and as "stovetop" wrote (what a funny name) - it is now for Russia to define itself. I wish I knew which way we are going. We simply don't know what to want. What is good these days?
Sensible development is not for Russia. Out of the agenda. Practical things are unattractive, too base, like, simply live, make yourself comfortable - ugh. Not "ugh".
But un-inspiring. Every Russian in every small European town when all gets closed at 5pm and gets quiet feels, like, it's choking, and, like as if you are within a toy house, all so small, narrow, and quiet.
And nothing happens.
We were always busy before. Fought with various invaders, then were invading others ourselves, conquered distances - we are good in expansionism, natural gift to master space, and luckily there was a lot on the continent. Until we walked to the edge (Pacific) and land ended.
So we backed off and worked a little bit on Siberia. A bit. But then we've got 1st WW, then-revolution, then - Civil War, then - Stalin, then - 2nd WW, then- to re-build the country from ruins, then were busy competing with you in the cold war, then oil price reached its hustorical maximum and we simply collapsed. Oil by itself wouldn't, but combined with cold war expense - exactly the last straw, as you wrote.
Then - yahoo! perestroyka - quite a turbulent time as well, but it ended and since that there was actually not much giving thought to the mind. Because comfort - it is not about us. We have not come to this earth to be comfortable. So "best minds" are toiling now in Russia trying to figure out a "national idea", but no good ones were put on the counter.
Sorry, I wrote too much about ourselves.
Alaska you mentioned, yes, funny. I actually think it was not even 87 million dollars, but simply - 7. At least, you paid. I hope.
Heard something that the money were gone on the way, to top it all, either the mediator grabatised them, need to look up in Wikipedia or some place, old story.
Pogroms - I'd think it's more of a Ukrainian thing. And some cossack troops - called here "black hundred" - speciality. But then Ukraine of course you won't find on any maps of the 19th century, it'll be marked in atlases as "Malorosia", neither any cossack "states", all the hell, same Russia.
I don't want to dis-own any thing.
About Obama - no illusions. First - as you said, his idea to make hands free in Iraq to apply these very hands better in "another place". But the main thing he looks very tricky. McCain, to a Russian eye again, looks more of a classic American president.
Predictable, at least.
Since M-me Clinton is off from your elections, alas, we don't fan anybody.
1 billion dollars that you say we've borrowed from you, and haven't returned, to finance ourselves in the 2ndWW - no, didn't know. Where would we buy things, in war? Surely it was money format?
I thought you were sending tanks and food and steel, may be that billion was the cost of this? Well, if we didn't return, you'd know next time how to start the cold war! You could have waited, as minimum, until you got back your money! Britain I know paid you, just recently finished, "up to the last penny", as they put it. In any case may be the consolation for you can be that Russia paid all USSR debts, took on itself whole debt of 15 countries, and surprise surprise not only symbolically, but actually paid it.
As to who won the war - I guess you know what I am going to say. We indeed tied up 70% of Hitler forces stuck here for 4 years.
But not only that, we've liberated ourselves, and then also made a wide sweep of Germans beyond own land, from here to Berlin. Though I heard many foreigners say we did not took Berlin, it only seems to us we were there. The red flag on Reichstag simply a modification of the US banner. (May I add that we not only took it, we also "put it back to place", 60 years after). And absolutely all Russians to this day wonder how foreigners managed to fight Hitler army any place on earth but not where his main forces were.
But, like I said, when somebody is in blissful exaggerration ..too many gg and rr .. about own achievements, it is not always bad for Russia. On this peaceful note let me wish you godd night, and good morning here.
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MarcusAureliusII
Sorry, I must be stupid. I hesitate to hark back to a comment from so long ago but you seemed to be saying that the UK and french populations lived in comparatively bad conditions during those nations' times of empire.
I don't see that their populations' living conditions were much different from anyone else in the world (including the US) at that time, given differences caused by the class system.
The french revolution - like the russian revolution - was a middle class revolution, sans-culottes and all. It was led by lawyers to replace once ruling class with another. It was also propaganda-led with Marie Antoinette's foreignness ruthlessly exploited by the Jacobins - a rich man's club.
I doubt they realised they would be replacing one monarch with another but there yer go.
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Incidentally, at the outbreak of the Iraq war it was supported by a majority of the 25 EU nations / soon to be EU nations of that time.
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MarcusAureliusII @96
Perhaps you are right and America does not need Europe.
You seem to think you speak for America in general and so I'll take your words at face value and support anyone who seeks to close down military bases in Europe and close out the Americans from our shores.
Perhaps Europe does not need the USA.
Thank you for opening my eyes to how you think America can go it alone using the Chinese as manufacturing pawns. Your insights into how America uses China is very enlightening.
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alice and wonder
'gabatise'- en interesting word. Neither Oxford nor webster gives it. You, alice will propose to look it up in Wikipedia (you love everything free), as all of you base your knowledge either on it or on the russian school manuals, the same since 60th.
To my oponion this is a russian word and I will try to find it in the russian dictionary.
As to you, my fair lady, you can go on contributing to English language. English language is generous.
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Karolina, seriously, I have no idea what you are trying to say in the post at #93. I do not know how what you wrote relates or even replies to what I wrote.
You jumped to a totally different topic.
I think these blogs are being trolled lately... as always... DO NOT feed the trolls... I'll try not to.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Menedemus, here is some more insight for you to consider. Do you know how and why Western Europe emerged from a devastated war ravaged land in two generations to be rebuilt as a thriving economy? Do you think Europe did it on its own? Where did the capital come from? Where did the technology and managerial skills come from? What mechanism created it from almost nothing. At the end of WW II Europe was broken and starving. Just look at the photos of what was left of German cities after they were bombed. Britain was bankrupt. Do you think this was done by magic because Europeans were so smart? If they were smart, they'd never have gotten into to fix they were in.
America's fear was that the USSR and Communism would seem so enticing, it would sweep over all of Europe and the US would be faced again with the same problem it had in 1941. The Marshal plan only went so far. At first it was all the US could do to prevent mass starvation. The US didn't know how long it would take to rebuild Europe. That loan Britain just paid back for money borrowed after the war was for reconstruction. It was a 50 year loan at 2%. By the time it was paid back it was a mere token having lost so much value to inflation. There's gratitude for you. The mechanism the US used to rebuild Europe was to encourage large American corporations to invest there which created jobs and wealth. It did this by allowing them to repatriate their profits to the US without tax while it opened access the US market, the largest in the world with little or no tarriffs for Western European products while it allowed the Europeans to maintain protective tarriffs on its own domestic markets. This gave European producers a great advantage. I call this the economic hothouse America created to rebuild Europe. At the same time, America paid largely for Europe's military defense. But is was only Margaret Thatcher who saw that this could not go on forever. Eventually when Europe was rebuilt, that hothouse was taken down and moved to Asia. Europe lives on its past success. It's mistake is that it believes that it was all its own doing. As a result, it continues to indulge in its uncompetitive ways of running its affairs. It's high labor rates, restrictive regulations, high taxes, all go to make it the least desirable place this side of Russia to do business. Small wonder that vast expensive social safety net combined with its high costs of doing business is bankrupting it. But to suggest even loosening that safety net Europeans regard as a birth right is to commit political suicide. DeVillepin found this out when he tried to create some new jobs for North Africans in France by loosening the restrictions on laying off workers under 26 years old with less than two years of experience and was met with a national strike. At the opposite pole is China and soon India where production costs are very low and restrictions nearly non existant. This spells doom to Europe's domestic economy now that all of the one way trade favoritism the US granted Europe during its reconstruction is gone. Europe can only make money now through trading within itself and foreign investment.
Webaliceinwonderland, as the American and British continued their relentless attack on Germany, burned down its cities, bombed its factories to dust, beat its soldiers back first in Africa and then in Western Europe. Eventually, the Russian winter and the vast army of poorly trained and underequipped Russain soldiers managed to take their toll on Germans in the East. If you want to read how the Red Army sent its soldiers into battle, read the Gulag Archipelligo. There is an interesting chapter on how they fought. The US under Eisenhower decided not to go to Berlin but to let the USSR capture it. The Red Army surrounded it with 22,000 pieces of artillery and pounded it for days before they went in to finally capture it. By then the Germans were only able to put up token resistance. There was some house to house fighting but many of those left to do the fighting were young boys and old men. The rest of the German army was either dead or had already surrendered.
Patton had a different idea. He wanted to continue on with the remnants of the German Army to continue heading East and fight all the way to Moscow. He was fired or more accurately forcibly retired.
BTW, the actual figure of what Russia owed the US was 900 million. That was a lot of money in the 1940s equal to many tens of billions today.
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... the way Russians fought under Stalin was with "backing battalions". Behind the Russian soldiers were groups of other Russian soldiers whose only role was to shoot their own troops in the back if they tried retreating, or tried hiding, etc. So the poor sods had to fight forward no matter the cost. If anyone had wounds in the back after the battle, they were executed instead of getting medical help... unless I assume they did some fast talking. A series called "Russia's War: Blood Upon The Snow" is a good documentary series to check out... it is not disparaging to the Russians, but it does not miss out on some "inconvenient truths".
MAII, sorry, but your anti European bias is so extreme, I have to think a European ate your mother or something smiliar happened. You have some good points, but I can't take your arguments seriously if they are so extreme, and cherry pick facts.
GDP is GDP, Europe is similar to the USA in size, the economies are structured differently, but SO WHAT? Europe IS NOT the way you describe, and it will not collapse no matter how many times you repeat it will do so.
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Rob_Hob
This is exactly what Solzhenitsyn said in the Gulag Archipelago. Not only that, but if Russian soldiers were taken prisoner by the Germans, when they were finally released they were immediately arrested and sent to prison for having committed the crime of seeing the outside world. This is what many Russians look back on with fondness, the Stalin era.
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MarcusAureliusII #111
To paraphrase Rob_Hob, "I have to think a Russian ate you father" so extremely hostile you sound!
No, seriously, do you think that my grandpa, and those of my friends have lied and Solzhenitsyn in his Gulag has told bare facts? To say the least, both must have been affected by their environments, and judging Soviet army practicies by Gulag Archipelago is akin to judging the US life style by reports from its criminal police.
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Nordic Person;
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn won the Nobel Prize in literature. Did your grandpa win a Nobel Prize in literature? When you can show me that he did, I will believe your grandpa. For now I will believe Sohzhenitsyn.
The Gulag Archipelago tells the wonderful story of much of the the history of 20th century Russia under Soviet Rule. Joseph Stalin, bless his little heart was its ruler for decades. He was a Georgian. He may have been the greatest mass murderer in all of human history. Some say he killed as many as 80 million Russians while others say that is a gross exaggeration, it wasn't any more than 40 million. And then there was Lavrentiy Beria. Who could forget old Lavrentiy? He was Stalin's right hand man.
Vlad Putin says that the fall of the USSR was the worst thing that ever happened. I'm sure he'd like to put it back together again and rule it. South Ossetia and Abkhazia may not be much but it's a start. From little acorns, mighty oak trees grow. I think the US should build another ten thousand hydrogen bombs just to be on the safe side. You never know when someone or something might need blowing up :-)
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