Karadzic finally captured
I am in The Hague, awaiting the arrival of that white-bearded practitioner of alternative medicine and accused war criminal, Radovan Karadzic. 
Would he be under arrest without the soft power and diplomacy of the European Union? And what does his arrest say about Serbia today?
Is it the lure of one day possibly joining the EU that has led Serbia to deliver up the man who is just a few notches off the top of the world's most wanted list?
Most diplomats in Brussels would have little doubt that their canny handling of the issue has led to this moment and that Serbia has made a further decisive turn towards the EU after this year's elections. Just before the Serbian elections the EU dangled a carrot in front of the Serbian people's noses: now Serbs will expect a nibble, if not to scoff the whole lot. The carrot was the signing of an agreement (the SAA) that would have direct and immediate trade benefits and start the long and laborious process of joining the EU. But it was made clear it couldn't come into effect until there was more co-operation on the delivery of those accused of war crimes. EU foreign ministers are deciding now if that time has come.
Some in Serbia think this helped swing the elections, giving the pro-Europeans the edge. They say it wasn't just the promise that was important, but gave the media something to talk and write about rather than the loss of Kosovo. The carrot, rather than the stick, became the headline.
Things would have been very different if the Radicals had won. But what really changed was forming a government without the previous prime minister, Vojislav Kostunica, who has increasingly thrown in his lot with the nationalists. It amazed me when about three years ago I did an interview with the then foreign minister, Vuk Draskovic, who said that they wanted to arrest those accused of war crimes but the police and security forces would not co-operate. Perhaps I was naive, but it is certainly a bad thing in a democracy when the men with the guns don't take orders from the men who get the votes.
People are using the word "milestone" about today and I am pretty certain this is a breakthrough in terms of political will, rather than intelligence or police tactics. How do you see it?
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~14~RS~)
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It is a moment of great importance and a cause for celebration - just as long as the Serbians understand that Karadzic is just the 'y' factor. The equation will not be solved without 'x'. When they deliver Mladic as well, that is when the doors will really open.
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Dr Karadic practiced alternative medicine in Serbia's capital. No wonder Serbian police couldn't find him.
Now the question is what is Ratko Mladic practicing and where.
Perhaps Serbian Ministry of Defense, from which gen. Mladic collected his military pension might know?
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I have to say that there must be something in it for the Serbs to have moved to 'capturing' Radovan Kadzic after all this time.
There is no way that they would have given him up before now and I think it is wrong to 'reward' the Serbs with trade agreement, promises of EU membership or whatever - for doing something they should have done years ago!
But I guess the EU will spend their income from the taxpayers of the net contributing countries as they see fit - without the consent of the people and giving it away as they deem politically correct!
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Funny how he did a saddam (didnt live in a hole tho)... but still got caught tho! Shame there isnt the hanging sentance in Bosnia!
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This is very positive news for Serbia and the E.U. Yes - it will be a long road yet but well worth the taking. It will be a better day still when all of former Yugoslavia is united within the Community.
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Is to little to late from Serbia,dont be decived,Karadcic's army really did commit the most brutal,inhumane murders anyone can think of in Srebrenica,gathering and then killing thousends of unarmed man cold bloded,and dumping them in mass graves.
Also keeping under siege Sarajevo for years.Bombing it every day with total disregard for human life.Often cuting water suplies to make in certain areas big number of civilians wanting to get water and then bombing them to pieces.
He is now an old unimportant man.The problem is that Serbia has not yet done what it should have ,which is to confront its past.
The majority of the Serbian population votes for Nationalists,even in Serbia proper Nationalists are the bigest political force.
They see Mladic and Karadcic and Miloshevic as heroes,and mainly because no politician or historian or media is willing to go out there and not only confront the reality but condemn the brutality they inflicted on the civilian populations of neighbouring countries.
They see them as heroes,and moderate forces shut up,and nationalist deny the crimes,while ultra-nationalists conndone them.
While this is a step foward,more should be done from Serbian politics,to totaly distance themselves from this elements which belong to the darkest and most shamefull pages of European and World history.
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Menedemus, you obviously see the world through a prism of idealism and have no clue about the realities of modern day politics. Very short-sighted comment, indeed.
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In my opinion this is a monumental moment for the Balkans, and especially for Serbia and it's dealings with the West. Hopefully this sign of cooperation and partnership with the EU will lead to Serbia becoming more involved with Europe and eventually taking its seat at Europe's top table. The traditional Serbian leanings towards Russia must now be a thing of the past if the Serbs are serious about wanting a partnership with Europe.
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oops i mean Mark, not Mike heh
Sorry for my hasty comment above ^_^
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Good news, so far. But there are still three political blocking points before the EU should consider Serbia's entry. The first is the capture and handing over of Mladic (as has already been noted).
The second is the prickly problem of Kosovo. The EU got it wrong when they admitted Greek Cyprus before their dispute with Northern Cyprus was finally resolved. Surely they won't want to make the same mistake twice? (The wait for Serbia to recognise Kosovo could be long one, I suspect).
Finally, of course, there can be no further expansion of the EU until the Lisbon Treaty problem is sorted out.
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Hi Mark,
PartI:
I don't see any relation between two war criminals responsible for ethnic cleansing in Bosnia and crimes against humanity being caught and delievered to justice, and Serbia achieving a membership in EU by delivering these criminals to justice. I know it's not what you wrote or implied in your blog but that is the atmosphere being created everywhere.
Slovenian minister of foreign affairs Dimitriy Rupel, supporting Serbian president Boris Tadic with his words said "We're only half way there", with the capturing of Radovan Karadzic and Mladic still being on the loose.
Serbian minister of foreign affairs Vuk Jeremic said they are fully cooperating with the War Crimes Tribunal in Den Haag and that Serbia will definitely become an EU member.
Now that is mind boggling for fellow Turkish people over here. There have been many chapters that an EU candidate has to go through before a obtaining a member status such as Turkey has been going through for the past few years. Economy, statistics, transportation, telecommunication, customs union, energy are some of the many. Yet, the atmosphere created here by the capturing of Radovan Karadzic, by only serving justice, is that doors of EU are widely opening to Serbia.
continued>
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Part II:
One can not grasp what actually is going on within EU as EU is far from being one entity,or even a union, but rather a group of individuals with completely different views on different subjects. Then what is the glue of EU? The anti-EU sentiments of Turkish public is ever-growing, parallel to the growing economy, despite a democraticly elected party with it's foot stuck between the slamming doors of EU upon Turkey. Turkish people are not interested in the carrot anymore, so to speak.
Whether the EU really slamming the door on Turkey or closing it ultra-slowly is another issue and i know i am sort of drifting away from the subject, but we are reminded over here in the media with things like "Talk of a Christian club is manifest nonsense and unacceptable" by Gary Titley, leader of British Labour MEPs in the European Parliament.
continued>
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I am a Serb, and you ask me, I would give you Karadzic, just NOT to accept us in that EU.
please, we don't need you, you don't need us. why are these politicians so pushy.
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With Karadzic about to face the dock and Mladic soon to follow, the main question is whether the Serb people will ever accept the loss of Kosovo (and other Serb areas now under different jurisdictions). In this part of the world memories run long and irrendentism holds strong over centuries. The former Yugoslavia is a consequence of the Great Powers' "divide and rule" principle, duly applied over centuries, with a just a pinch of local brutality mixed in. Now is the time for the West to make good for its atrocious policies and recent disgraceful shortcomings (see the UN, the Dutch military etc.) with rapid regional development and making those hard fought over borders as insignificant as possible, as soon as possible. Sadly, atrocity is a relative term in the course of history, and Karadzic et. al. are just the most recent arrivals and actually tiny players in the greater scheme of things.
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Gheryando @ #7
Idealist maybe I am.
Shortsighted - with my eyes - very!
I am normally quite pragmatic but the capture of Radovan Karadzic after all this time smells iffy!
But I am not clear as to what your beef is with my comment at #3. Please do clarify. I hate to be insulted and not understand the insulter's point of view!
Do you mean that you think that it is politically correct to reward Serbia for capturing Radovan Karadzic when even BBC Reporters have seen him living at ease in public within Serbia in recent times. The Serbs have had ample opportunity to capture him and hand him over before now.
Or, is it that you object to my criticism of the EU being able to politically reward Serbia without so much as a say so from the people who ultimately pay for the EU through their taxes. Given the fuss that is occurring with EU expansion to 27 country membership perhaps even tentatively offering Serbia EU memberships is somewhat of a leap of faith!
I have broad shoulders and don't mind criticism at all but if you are going to be critical at least let me know what the beef is?
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What this proves is that the European Union likes to put its nose in where it's not wanted. I mean, every country should have the right to commit genocide within its own borders, to harbour war criminals, and to import and consume bananas of arbitrary curvature.
This shows the necessity for Britain leaving the European Union and joining the United States, where they don't care about the International Criminal Court anyway.
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Menedemus.
I live in the U.S. so I have to agree with your sentiments especially that the politicians will do what they want with money. The timing on Karadzic’s capture does seem wobbly to me. I wasn’t aware that Karadzic had been seen hanging out during his time on the run. Any links to stories about him being out in public view you can post? Until his capture there hasn’t been much coverage here in the States.
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Thank you CostasGionis,
Couldn’t be better . Some more important faces are missing in whole saga of International justice. Especially those who do not recognize International low but keep lecturing small nations about democracy and other stuff. I really like to see those in de Hague court facing exactly same charges as Balkan war criminals.
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#11/12 - BoraTok
I don't think anyone is suggesting fast tracking Serbia into the EU once Mladic is found and handed over. Serbia will have to jump through the same hoops and meet the same criteria as any other applicant nations. In this respect, their position is no different from Turkey. They simply reach a point where the door will not be slammed in their face.
Turkey has different issues, not least the fact that most of its land mass is not in Europe. There are those in Europe who feel that admitting a non European nation is premature. There are others who are watching with interest to see whether Turkey will continue to function as a secular state. Some are certainly looking to Turkey to unequivocally acknowledge Cyprus as a single sovereign state.
What aids the cause of Serbia somewhat is that this arrest signals some willingness to come to terms with her history and address outstanding issues arising from it. The Serbians know that a resolution has to be found to the Kosovo question before membership proceeds and the effective partitioning of Bosnia cannot continue indefinitely.
By contrast, the 1915 massacre of Armenians continues not to be openly addressed because academics and outsiders persist in the arid and fruitless pursuit of whether it was or was not genocide and questions remain about the status of the Kurdish minority. These are totally different questions from those relating to Serbia and it would be a mistake to compare or confuse them.
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@tuairimocht (16)
if anything, the EU (then EEC) enabled and emboldened Milosevic to do what he did. Indeed, weeks after Slovenia and Croatia had announced secession, EEC officials were in Belgrade promising aid to Milosevic to keep Yugoslavia together.
The whole situation must be put in perspective. For centuries, Serbia was occupied by the brutal and genocidal Ottoman empire. And in World War II the Croats and Bosnian muslims (and Kosovar muslims) had an alliance with Nazi Germany to try and exterminate the Serbs. Does the name of Ante Pavelic ring a bell anywhere? Or Waffen-SS units Handschar and Skanderbeg?
One of the members of this Waffen-SS division was a certain Alija Izetbegovic (who would later invite mujahedeen terrorists from the middle east to sow terror on the Croatian and Serbian countrysides). Why Izetbegovic was never charged with anything is beyond me, Izetbegovic was certainly the foremost war criminal in Yugoslavia during the 1990s.
Of course, Karadzic should have to answer for his (alleged) crimes. But I don't like this "blame Serbia for all ills in the Balkans" some people seem to be displaying here.
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CostasGionis wrote:
The former Yugoslavia is a consequence of the Great Powers' "divide and rule" principle, duly applied over centuries, with a just a pinch of local brutality mixed in.
Costas, that doesnt make sense. The serbs fought the slovenians, croatians, bosnians, and kosovo albanians to keep them in that union headed by serbs. What do you mean the west is responsible for those wars? The serbians believed in ethnic cleansing to keep the power. This is all the fault of serbian nationalism, and not the west. And saying a pinch of local brutality is a big slap to the quarter millions of dead bosnians dont you think?
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Is it true that the USA is not a member of the ICC?
And that it has passed legislation authorizing the military recovery of any US official arrested by the ICC?
Why do you suppose this is?
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So it's been the EU carrot what leads to arrest this accused of war crimes. Hmmm... No wonder positive outputs from EU don't make big headlines.
Let's wait though: there will be someone in here who'd find reasons to defend that Karadzic will finally face justice not thanks to the EU pressure, but despite it.
Anything goes for the new USSR or the EU Mugabe's style mega-dictatorship.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
How dare EU diplomats relate Kosovo recognition with serbia EU membership?.
That will be OK just in case we accept the self-determination for all the peoples in Europe. We can begin with Scotland, the vasc country , North Ireland , and so on.
They have the same rights than the albanians, and surely troughout the history they have suffered.
P.D. the international comunity has no recognized the State of Kosovo, just 43 countries in almost 200. And Chine, India, Russia, Brasil, Spain, Indonesia, ... of course not. More than 9 over10 of the world poblation.
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This is a great moment for pro-Europeans. The greatest benefit of the EU has always been that it reinforces the values of democracy and human rights in its member nations and acts as a magnet for those values for countries which aspire to membership. The arrest of Karadzic is the most spectacular evidence of that benefit.
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fvzappa @ #17
As requested:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/correspondent/1986652.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/monitoring/64872.stm (dated 1998, this refers to a Serb Radio Station suggesting that Kardzic had returned to his medical profession - guess what he was doing when arrested!)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7477912.stm (The Serbian Mafia owe the US two CIA Agents if you read this!)
There are loads of articles on the BBC Website about the last 13 years up to the present day but there is no doubt in my mind that Serbia and Serbians as a majority have sought to protect one of their own from capture and facing trial for war crimes.
To reward them now is to reward 13 years of obstruction of justice for the Bosnian Serbs who were killed at Srebrenicia.
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Karadzic is arrested, Mladic will be soon and Serbia will honour it's international obligations. The question is whether Serbia needs to be a part of the EU. The only, single reason is of economical nature, but I belive that this issue could be addressed between Serbia and the EU through a number of trade and customs agreements. I am against the membership of Serbia in the EU for political reasons. Also, Serbia will NEVER be part of that rotten US army extension NATO. The age of honorable European politics from the second half of the 20th Century is over, what we have today is continuation of exercizing old complexes of bigger nations within the EU and on the world stage, while sidelining, and in the case of Serbia bullying, the smaller ones. Therefore, you will get Mladic and that third guy soon and then please leave us alone with your "union" - let's make diplomatic and business agreements and let's trade. We are not political allies and we will not be in the near future after all you did to us in last two decades. By the way, it's so peculiar how Europeans quickly forget their own history...
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Xie_Ming @ 22
There are 106 Countries (including Serbia)who are signed up to cooperate and abide by the judgement of International Criminal Court.
You are absolutely correct, the USA is not aligned to the ICC by treaty.
BUT then neither is Russia, China, Iraq, Iran, Zimbabwe, Indonesia, Sudan, or Burma or, indeed, many other countries were atrocities are being actively or surreptitiously committed against people within or adjacent to or in the political interests of those countries.
Sorry, I missed the point of your comment at #22?
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thedavidw @ 26
Oh what joy for the EU!
Let us welcome Serbia to the EU. Let us ignore the 13 years of obstruction, prevarication, concealment and popular support for Radovan Karadzic.
Without doubt some of the Serbian Officials who have been complicit in preventing NATO from capturing Karadzic will soon be working for the common good of ALL Europeans with posts in Brussels, Luxembourg and Strasburg.
The joy for the pro-EU lobby must be immense.
Ah, but what about the Bosnians - the arraignment of Karadzic is not the end of their woes. Karadzic may have given the political order to massacre the Bosnian Moslems of Srbrenicia but it was a lot of Serbians involved in pulling the triggers that dealt the death and mayhem.
And what about the Kosovo Albanians?Does the EU think that Serbia is such a reputable Europan nation that it should be rewarded with EU membership whilst Kosovo's fledgling democracy is under great stress from Serbia even now?
Oh what joy to have Serbians as citizens of the Greater European Empire - sorry I mean the EU!
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#25 -nicelalola
"How dare EU diplomats relate Kosovo recognition with serbia EU membership?."
They don't. Indeed, only 20 EU members have actually recognised Kosovo's independence. What they do require is a resolution of the question - in effect, an absolute assurance that Serbia will not attempt to restore sovereignty by force or by promoting internal unrest.
However I would accept that the very high level of economic support being given by the EU indicates that this is their preferred route
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I do not want to diminish the massacres committed by the Bosnian Serb military/paramilitaries but they just followed the beaten path to nation building that virtually all European nations did. They just did it late, in our time, rather than back in the dusty old history books' time that no-one bothers to read anymore. Read history everybody, Karadzic was just a minor lieutenant (albeit particularly effective in his gruesome mission) in game that runs back centuries.
When you are desperately fragmented in terms of social cohesion, stripped of resources and with no perspective for the future, then it is easy to look at your neighbour as your worst enemy. It runs back a long way, like I said, Karadzic is only a newcomer. The question is what is to be done from here on and the answer to my mind is undo the unworkable conception of the pure nation-state, used in just about every country in the world to opress minorities and create stiff, boring, uniplanar homogeneities which are essentially against the essence of humanity, albeit most pleasing to beaurecrats and fascists. This undoing has to come from the top-down, most people are too entrenched in the concept of the fatherland, the biggest fallacy in history, ever. One way to do this would be to increase immigration in a controlled way, so as to dilute this kind of nonsense in geographical terms.
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#32 - CostasGionis
That is precisely what the EU is about, why some are so hostile to it, and why it's out-of-touch leadership is so afraid of democratising it.
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I regard this report as part of an attempt to find something positive to say about the "EU". Plenty of other stuff which is unflattering to the "EU" or its members has gone unreported. I consider the BBC sort of lies by omission.
Nevertheless, I am glad to see him in custody. I hope he gets a fair trial.
As regards Northern Kosovo, I still think it should break away from Kosovo and become ("stay?") part of Serbia. (Maybe after a referendum) I further think that it demonstrates a fundamental right of peoples to have referenda about their future and that that applies to the UK as well.
In general if peoples do not have their right to self-determination accepted then expect trouble. Expect never ending trouble in Northern Kosovo, the UK and the "EU".
As frequently happens, I found something on Austrian websites which I thought should have been mentioned on the BBC. Maybe it was and I missed it, but I don't think so.
According to the excellent Viennese newspaper, the Wiener Kurier under Sarkozy's new French constitution the French get the right to a referendum about any country joining the "EU". Apparently this means Turkey. Further it will become easier for the French to have referenda about individual laws. Amazing!
Just when Sarko is denying the French a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty and conspiring with anti-democratic forces in the UK to make sure that we don't get one he is making it possible for the French to have a referendum on Turkey presumably because HE does not want Turkey in the "EU".
http://www.kurier.at/nachrichten/180159.php
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Menedemus @ 30
Your ignorant, hateful and cynical brain obviously can not digest modern day politics and diplomatic dealings. Mentioning in your comment politicians who obstructed the arrest over previous period at the moment when actual arrest happened; next to finding about every single negative you can; is not only ill-intended but makes your comment uninformed and shallow. Obviously, Serbia voted in a new governemnt who arrested the guy right away, which means people of Serbia supported this. Democracy, remember? If anyone paid the stately price for something they allegedly did it's Serbia (We are cleared in the international banana court from alleged genocide, they should've looked towards Croatia better) . We delivered 44 persons (including a president) to this international banana court. We are the biggest multi-ethnic country in the region, especially given that Croatia and Kosovo ethnically cleansed their territories, and we never invited arabic murderous maniacs to help us cut the enemy's heads off and pose for pictures (your poor Bosnia!). And instead of healing your complexes and satisfying your hatred by writing 10's of comments on this blog better get a life and let reasonable people offer their opinion. Moderator, please don't change my text, if anything you find unsatisfactory, please don't publish it at all.
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Thank you for your insight in this topic, Mark. I'm looking forward to the next entry.
Personally, I remain underwhelmed by Serbia's efforts to co-operate with the ICJ. Where is Mladic? I'm also terrified by images of pro-Karadzic rallies on the streets of Belgrade. The scary kind of nationalism is still prominent in Serbian society; a nation not even remotely ready to join the European Union as far as I'm concerned.
This is a small step in the right direct, just a small one. Let us not mistake this for significant progress.
As a Dutch citizen, I hope justice will be served. The Srebrenica massacre is a national trauma for us. Our outnumbered troops were abandoned by NATO/UN partners and failed to protect thousands of innocent people. When our government (after an inquiry into the massacre) fell and parliament was dismissed, leading to new elections, it felt like a fresh start but true resolve is still out of range.
We crave a just ending.
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It's an important step that Karadzic is captured at the end. What's more important to me is how an average Serb perceives this arrest. Is he cheering out loud in public for a top war criminial will be brought to justice, or is he bitterly sulking due to the arrest of a 'national hero'?
To Threnodio, #19
"Turkey has different issues, not least the fact that most of its land mass is not in Europe. There are those in Europe who feel that admitting a non European nation is premature."
When it comes to a country's EU bid, I think it is futile to question the country's geographical eligibility. Especially given that only 0.00% of Cyprus' land mass lies on the European continent.
Who defines a geographical entity anyway? (One might think that Turkey is located too eastward to be called European; whereas for the other, Turkey's eastern neighbours, Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia are also considered in Europe.)
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There was always predicted to be trouble when Tito (Yugoslavian leader 1945 to 1980) died, namely the break-up of Yugoslavia. The rise of an Islamic fundamentalism encroaching into Western Europe was less foreseeable.
In this context, Serb nationalism is guilty of opportunism, ultimately failing. Yet the invasion of Iraq was much the same. If both conflicts are opportunistic foreign policy, what is the new foreign policy required?
The fall of the Berlin Wall was a great victory, demonstrating the will of the people to be free of oppressive state power. In that context many Islamic governments outside of Europe are reproductions of these same "state machines" that ran the Stasi (secret police) of East Germany.
So to defend our liberal Western democracies, how should foreign policies be managed abroad?
Western requirements for oil mean that those tactics deployed against previous state powers behind the iron curtain are currently impossible, in particularly against the icon of non-liberal governments Saudi Arabia. Even worse energy needs are pushing Western democracies to abandon piece by piece liberal values. Democracies are squeezed by a need not to undermine "state machines" supplying oil and at the same time to monitor internal communities championing "values back home".
The obvious answer is to rapidly build a new nuclear energy capacity on a yet unimagined scale. It would lessen the squeeze and permit the pursuit of new foreign policy objectives abroad. Is that possible? Yes, but only when Western democracies abandon cold war secrecy and come clean about nuclear secrets. Only then will the liberals within Western democracies possess the full information to make an informed choice.
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AegeansArk @37
"One might think that Turkey is located too eastward to be called European; whereas for the other, Turkey's eastern neighbours, Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia are also considered in Europe"
Since when do those countries become consider european?
The United Nations Statistics Division considers Eastern Europe to consist of the following ten countries: Belarus, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Hungary, Moldova, Poland, Romania, Russia (a transcontinental country), Slovakia, Ukraine.
The CIA Factbook more realistically lists the countries of Eastern Europe as Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Ukraine.
As far as I can read only the Times Magazine in 2007 lists Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia as being part of Eastern Europe.
It has been traditionally presumed that the Ural Moutains were the far eastern edge of continental Europe and that countries straddling the Urals were defines as Transcontinental Countries not European Countries per se.
It is interesting to note that Turkey is not considered even a transcontinental country nor does it appear in any lists that I can find as a 'European Country' - the bospous seemingly held to be the geographical edge of continental Europe and border with the continent of Asia.
The EU as a political entity has to be aware that Russia will feel that it too has political entity and thus have claim to a sphere of influence (much as espoused by Stalin and Molotov pre WWII) and they might feel that the EU claiming Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia as 'european countries' might be a point of issue for them.
France (at political and public opinion level) is resistng the expansion of the EU to include Turkey and I think we can guess what that will mean - I think we can forget Turkey or Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia becoming EU European Full Member States any time soon!
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ZoranPopovic @ 35
Thank you very much for your insight into my brain. I take it I'm not on your birthday party list of guests then!
Nevertheless you condemn yourself with your own words: calling the Internationl Court of Justice a "international banana court" and using angry and bitter words to illustrate your hatred of Croats, Bosnians and Kosovans.
Is that the view of the Serbian man or woman in the street . . . . it probably is given that in 9 or 10 days time, once Karadzic has exhausted all appeals, he is likely to extradited to the ICJ in The Hague and faces up to his crime. The man represents the mind, meanness of spirit and attitude of Serbia whether you like it or not.
The fact is that for 13 years, Serbia has protected Radovan Karadzic from capture and effectively there has been a conspiracy to prevent him ever being taken before the ICJ.
So, democracy now rules in Serbia and, because Serbia has been offered carrots, the Serbia people think that the EU should now open up itself to adopt Serbia without any rancour. I ask myself what do the Serbians want - oh, they want the EU money and benefits so they are now - after 13 years of obstruction, prevarication, and outright protection of Karadzic - willing to sacrifice their former hero to the ICJ.
Big deal!
Serbia is putting stress on Kosovo even today so can hardly be thought of as a model European nation and ideal candidate for membership.
Until Serbia formally applies for membership of the EU and then goes through all the usual hoops to prove itself a fit for membership of the EU, Serbia should not be given any special treatment for having, finally after 13 years, started to do the right thing!
You may not like what I say but I live in an open and free society so I am allowed, within reason (and the BBC House Rules), to have an opinion and express it. Your words, clearly intended to demean my opinion cannot offend or hurt me.
Yay, democracy and free speech does rule!
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Just been reading through the comments and it's like tennis match. Back and forth Except that there is usually an end to a tennis match. As a few people said, there were many people and events that contributed to the Balkan debacle. I grew up in a time when Yugoslavia wass a place to go on holiday and where the people of all ethnic backgrounds were considered amonst the kindest you could meet anywhere. My dream is that one day in the future that place will exist once again. As I said, it's a dream. Anyway, it's easy to forget the past and in the case of the British with their empire and all of that it can be very useful to forget that past. Not all Englishmen are gentlemen.
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According to
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7477912.stm
"Even from behind, the shape of the head and the greying salt-and-pepper mop of hair of one of the world's most wanted men was easily recognisable.
And when he turned his head in profile, the journalist was absolutely sure.
Radovan Karadzic was drinking coffee at a remote restaurant on the Foca to Gacko road in southern Bosnia.
It was April 2005"
So in just three yaers he's grown a berad that any Orthodox Patriarch would be proud of, his hair has gone completely white and he now wears glasses?
Who is kidding whom?
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I was just wondering, has any of you been to Serbia, or the Balkans? You judge us by the information you get from your TV. Otherwise, you just seem to be too lazy to dig a bit more about politics.
Well, it's not your relatives and friends that had been killed in Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo. Do you know what happens in war? People get killed. It's you or them. Simple as that. If you don't defend yourself and your family, are you a man or a worm? My Serbian friends were butchered. One of my closest friends watched his family being tortured and massacred by the Muslims. Well, I guess it doesn't matter. We are big, bad Serbs, you have to believe the media.
As for Kosovo, why don't you give away Northern Irealand? I mean, why do you need it for?
You compare Karadzic to Bin Laden. Why don't you compare him to Blair or Bush? Do you know how many people Bush killed just in Iraq, or how many people got killed during the NATO agression in Serbia (ironically enough, the operation was called Merciful angel, yeah, right, I saw beutiful, merciful bombs falling all over my country and heard wonderful merciful weeping)?
It's the matter of your current politics. In the feature, you will realise the truth. Don't be shortsighted.
It's not that the Serbs wanted war, we just defended ourselves. I just don't realize how anyone doesn't see that.
So, by the current EU politics, Nasser Oric and Ramush Haradinaj are innocent, because it is allowed to kill the beasts (Serbs).
Please, but p-l-e-a-s-e, do not let yourselves become brainwashed. In the era of the new media - Internet, you just cannot believe the traditional media. You simply cannot be that naive. Explore a bit on your own. Try to figure out when the world declared Milosevic and Karadzic guilty of genocide. Look behind the scene, and you will see that we were just the puppets in the hands of the Master (you just don't meddle in other countries' affairs if you don't have economic interest, just as the US has). There is a lot of material, I'm just not sure whether it's available in English, I guess it is, just try... Try to find some data about the lignite mines in Kosovo and the values of these lignite deposits for example.
I already know you will see this comment as a cheap propaganda, but I hope that some of you will get more objective.
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Menedemus @ 40
Thank you for your reply.
No, you are not invited to my party.
The international court has proven to be a political court. It is an anti-Serbian institution as it released the worst butchers and killers from muslim Bosnia and Kosovo, as well as Croatia, even though there was an overwhelming amount of proof against these people. Serbs, on the other hand, are being sent to prison constantly. So, yes, it is a circus of a court - a political institution set up by NATO countries to justify their bombing of Serbia and Serbs elsewhere. Americans don't even let it apply to their citizens. Gen. Wesley Clark goes to testify there and answers his cell phone in the middle of the testimony against Milosevic! There's your respect for the court by the yankees!
I don't hate anybody. I am saying that Croation army (with redescovered passion for fascist leadership of 1940's Croatia in the face of the rulling HDZ party) killed Serbs and ethnically cleansed their territory in the operation Storm with the help of NATO. I am saying that Bosnian lunatic presidentIzetbegovic brought Arabic psychos to kill Serbs in the name of Allah and they proudly posed for photos with Serbian decapitated heads (aside from fundamentalist local army). I am saying that Albanian terrorist organization KLA (on the US list of terrorist groups untill they suddenly became best friends and got removed) killed and raped Serbs and burnt ancient churches and monasteries - there's your national maturity of the Albanians. I don't hate anyone, but then again, I don't have to explain myself to you too much beacuse you will not understand - your heart is full of spite and hatred and you are most likely unable to understand.
As far as everything else you wrote, you just confirmed my thoughts about you from my previous post # 35.
p.s. Long live free speech but the media has to find the way to curb people with empty and boring lives from stuffing these comment boards with their hateful ramblings. People like you. Place a comment or two then find a hobby, play cricket or something man...
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@Srpkinja (43)
there are some (like me) that know what really happened in the former Yugoslavia between 1980 and 2006) and that the massive western anti-Serbian campaign (spearheaded by, amongst others, the BBC) is based on spin, misrepresentations and utter lies. Not the least of which is how the media portrays Alija Izetbegovic as a hero. Izetbegovic was a man who planned to cleanse Bosnia of non-muslims (which not coincidentally seems to happen in more socalled majority-plurality islamic countries) and make those non-muslims who refused to leave 2nd class citizens. Izetbegovic cut a deal with mujahedeen terrorists to go and kill Croats and Serbs.
You'll notice that its mainly the pro-EU (ie anti parliamentary democracy) crowd that propagates these lies. People like me know how the Bosnian muslims and at the time Croatia also had an alliance with Nazi Germany that attempted to commit genocide against the Serbs. And people like me also know the truth about the #1 warmonger from the old Yugoslavia (Izetbegovic).
Oh betuli, as I explained (see post #20) this Karadzic stuff has nothing to do with the EU, it was the EU (EEC) who enabled socialist Milosevic and his allies to do what they did in the first place.
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i dont understand why my comments are not shown.I never use offensive or even nationalistic language.I find the above comments very inacurate ,and i am sorry i am not being able to answer with the historical facts.I can not keep writing the same long mesage many times for it not to go through for some reasons.
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First ,no crimes of that magnitude have been commited against the Serbs,and second,it was a regular army that commited crimes under Miloshevic's order,and Karadzic's orders.Bosniacs,Croatians and Albanian leaders could not posibly halt the revenge attacs on the Serbians.
Srebrenica is an unprecedented crime in history of warfare.
A towns male population was exterminated.
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Karadzic is a war criminal,who went in hiding fro 13 years knowing full well the extent of suffering his decisions brought on neighbouring people.
Srebrenica massacre is not only (as media normaly says it is ) the worst crime commited in Europe since the Nazis,but the worst crime ever in history of human kind ,by any standarts.
To make a colective killing of that kind of a whole town's male civilian population,not by bombing them,not by machinegun them or any form of collective quick and efective way of killing them,but tie them up,gather them and kill them one by one in their thousends is unimaginable horror.And then dumping their remains in mass graves.
The mass rapes,often using rifles to rape women in front of their relatives,such as rapes of grandmothers and underaged women, and their brutality have no historical precedent in any known conflict.
There is no if's and no but's.It was pure catastrophe of biblical proportions,something that bring to tears every person that has come across the facts that depict the brutality that has taken place in Bosnia under Karadzic and Mladic executions of his orders.
Of course that Serbians suffered in this war aswell,but they did not suffer Concentration camps of the worst kind,there was no collective massacre carried out on any Serbian population,there was no collective rape of Serbian women etc etc.
The other war criminals in the balcans have done crimes that can not even be compared to the crimes comited by the Miloshevi'c war machine.
1----In Bosnia the muslims used to be secularist,modern and no different from other european cultures,it was excactly the massacres commited upon them simply for the fact that they were muslims that radicalised them,and the fact that no one in Europe was arming them when their civilian population was being threatened with extermination,that they turned for help wherever they could find it,such as to the oportunistic Mojahedin.
2----------Croatians also were unarmed when the Serbian army carried out mass killings of civilian populations,and they to turned to extremism only after crimes were commited against them,and they found channels through wich to arm themselves,mainly from Germany and Austria.
3--------------Kosovans have not destroyed or burned Catholic churches or Christian churches of other groops exept Serbian churches for the only reason that the churches were the main pretex used by Serbs to claim Kosovo,by saing that they have their churches in Kosovo,thats why Kosovo belongs to Serbia,without regard to the fact that 90% of the population is not Serbian. Lets not forget the fact that 10 % of Albanians in Kosovo are christians themselves.
Serbia has lately,specially after september 2001 used the christian drama to gain suport in the west.Is pathetic.
Even more pathetic has been the European media coverage when it comes to this particular conflict.
Nothing positive,civilised has to be reported as coming from Albanians,while everything coming out of Serbia has to be Beautifull,positive and civilised,despite the fact that victims has not yet got an apology,and that there is not even an self-reflection on the part of Serbia,who continues to live in a state of denial.
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ZoranPopovic @ #44
You're getting very angry and it cannot be doing you any good.
Maybe you feel that Serbia is innocent and just the victim of the civil war in the former Yugoslavia but the truth is that Serbia was the main protaganist trying to prevent the break-up of the region using force in the first instance.
Fortunately, it seems that, until Serbia shows some penitence for the atrocities of 1991 to 1995 has no chance of being offered EU membership.
Maybe you're angry because the truth hurts? Or maybe you feel the guilt that Serbians should feel if they are to become penitent and become suitable candidates for membership of the EU?
Sadly, I don't think that penitence is in the psyche of Serbians who have had no remorse for the past 13 years.
I am sorry I am not welcome to your party, it would be very lively I am sure!
As it is I have a very full life and I rewarded by your reaction to my comments - it highlights your antagonism to a few home truths.
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It is so profoundly idiotic to try to demonise whole nations while portraying others as pure victims. Is anybody so naive as to think that only one side committed atrocities in the Yugoslav wars? How can you use relative numbers as the determinant factor? Guilty are those who killed more! Did murdered Bosnian Serbs die less than murdered Bosniaks? Doesn't anybody understand that once the paramilitaries take over control of military operations is lost to extremists? How can you theorise random violence based on assessments of politics? Random, blind, get it?
I sense desperation in this blogg to find answers about the violence but not desperate enough to look into history for the them. Tension between Yugoslav nations did not begin in the 1990s. They just manifested a surge in violence, a grim but remarkably regular affair from way back, slightly interrupted by Tito's rule. Somebody from the beeb please call up your own Misha Glenny (the writer of an excellent Balkans history book) to explain to the desperate folks on this blogg that the Balkans have always been just another "theatre" for "Great Powers" antagonism and that the locals just got overzealous in their pathetic role as gladiators. Stop fighting for a second and glance at the grandstand to spot the fixers.
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To Menedemus, #39
If only you did not trouble yourself to paraphrase the article 'Eastern Europe' on wikipedia in your previous post. A link would have sufficed.
"The United Nations Statistics Division considers Eastern Europe to consist of the following ten countries: Belarus, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Hungary, Moldova, Poland, Romania, Russia (a transcontinental country), Slovakia, Ukraine."
I agree with you on one point, Menedemus: Turkey is not an integral part of what's defined as 'Eastern Europe'. The country is located rather in Southeastern Europe. If you spare your minute to check UNGEGN divisions in UN Statics Division's site, you'll see that Turkey is in 'East Central and South-East Europe Division' along with Bulgaria, Greece and Cyprus to name a few. Armenia and Azerbaijan are in 'Eastern Europe, Northern and Central Asia Division' (now which part of the division's name refers to these countries given that both are not located in Northern and/or Central Asia?).
"The CIA Factbook more realistically lists the countries of Eastern Europe as Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Ukraine."
The CIA Factbook more unrealistically lists Serbia as a candidate country of the European Union. It estimates the percentage of Turkey's ethnically Kurdish population, failing any source cited. It refers to FYROM as Macedonia. If you ask me, the impartiality and credibility of CIA Factbook only excel those of Wikipedia.
"As far as I can read only the Times Magazine in 2007 lists Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia as being part of Eastern Europe."
Then I suggest that you scope out the 'Europe' section of BBC, Financial Times, CNN, The Economist for a start.
"It has been traditionally presumed that the Ural Moutains were the far eastern edge of continental Europe and that countries straddling the Urals were defines as Transcontinental Countries not European Countries per se."
The Ural Mountains run roughly through the longitude 60° East. Georgia is located between the longitudes 40°-47° East; Azerbaijan 44°-52° East; Armenia 43°-46° East. Speaking of straddling...
"It is interesting to note that Turkey is not considered even a transcontinental country nor does it appear in any lists that I can find as a 'European Country' - the bospous seemingly held to be the geographical edge of continental Europe and border with the continent of Asia."
This brings us to the question: what is Europe? The short answer, I do not know. The long answer is that the land masses were not once formed as Europe, Asia and/or Australia, etc.- it was us who gave them such names (an hour is 60 minutes, yet without our definition, there isn't an hour to begin with). E.g. China in Ancient times was not considered (by whom?) Asia for the definition of 'Asia' was back then confined to the territories of Asia Minor. Therefore, unless human population is reduced to one, an absolute, single definition DNE. I say Europe is Turkey, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan and Russia as well as it is Sweden, Spain, the UK and Serbia. I guess time will tell whether I or those ' European Country lists' you mention will update our respective definitions.
In addition, the strait is called the Bosp(h)orus.
"The EU as a political entity has to be aware that Russia will feel that it too has political entity and thus have claim to a sphere of influence (much as espoused by Stalin and Molotov pre WWII) and they might feel that the EU claiming Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia as 'european countries' might be a point of issue for them."
Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia are independent countries. It is first up to them to decide whether to adopt a European future, namely one that features the EU. Energy concerns taken into account, it's at EU's best interests that these countries continue to share strong ties with the union.
"France (at political and public opinion level) is resistng the expansion of the EU to include Turkey and I think we can guess what that will mean - I think we can forget Turkey or Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia becoming EU European Full Member States any time soon!"
A Turkish citizen of an age to vote, I am against Turkey's joining the EU now. However, I can not predict whether I would vote Yes or No in an EU referendum in 50 years- the future structure of the EU is yet unclear. The French do pursue alternative ways to oppose Turkey's membership because they are aware that rejecting Turkey's EU bid on geographical basis would be unacceptable.
Mark, sorry for the unrelated post.
I hope that Mladic will be too arrested soon.
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I Agree with the above post.I dont see how Greece can be called western Europe, Cypruss as well,but Bulgaria,Rumania,Albania are eastern Europe.Statements against logic.
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AegeansArk @ 51
You need not have reiterated all of my message AgeansArk. You would have saved yourself a lot of trouble.
I accept your correction of the spelling of Bosphorus too but it was a typographical error not my illiteracy. If the BBC provided spellchecker then I might have seen my 'typoe' but it's always nice to have someone point out your typographical mistakes - Not!
I was suggesting, in my original comment, that Turkey is not part of Europe at all but part of the Asian Continent. I don not and did not disagrre with your original comment that "When it comes to a country's EU bid, I think it is futile to question the country's geographical eligibility."
Clearly you believe Turkey is part of "Southeastern europe" but I have no idea what that means to you. I am none the more wise from your comment at #51 because even you do not seem to know what "Europe" is. I merely quoted the wiki because it provided 3 sources to try and define what is continental Europe.
Politically, the EU may want to invite membership of countries as far afield as Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia . It may even, one day, want to invite Iraq, Iran, Syria and even Israel to join in due course. I accept that it would then be for those countries to choose to apply. But it would not make those countries European they would, if they joined be "members of the EU".
The EU is not defined by only being a "European Club" - it is merely a political entity - based upon a trading partnership it is striving to become a Union of States.
However, my original intent was to disagree that Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia were part of Europe given your comment "... whereas for the other, Turkey's eastern neighbours, Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia are also considered in Europe.". I still disagree that they are part of Europe and you have not dissuaded me from that opinion.
I totally agree that Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia are independent countries and that it is up to them to apply and join the EU but that does not make them european in nature, culture or location.
I also still believe that geographically, Turkey is separated from Europe by the Bosphorus and I hold that to be the eastern edge of Europe. Turkey may have 3 Districts or Provinces to the west of the Bosphorus (Edirne, Kirlareli and Tekirdag) as well as West Istanbul but that does not dissuade me from believing the Turkey is not part of Continental Europe.
I thank you for sharing you voting intentions with me (and the world) but, to be frank with you, I don't care. Join the EU and your vote will not matter a jot - the EU has a democratic deficit that will neither be enhanced nor changed by expansion to include Turkey.
As regards France, if they can find a way to block Turkey from membership they will do so. On that, I think we seem to be agreed.
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Anyone who looks at map can realize the island of Cyprus is geographically not in Europe, but in Asia. However this country is a full EU member, although the Turkish northern part remains in a limbo.
So the geographic reasons to refuse Turkey membership are untennable, more if you consider that Thrace, where West Istanbul is, is a European territory.
Geography nor religion cannot be obstacles for Turkey's accession. Neither is economy, if we consider the cases of Bulgaria or Romania.
You should find better excuses to reject the Turkish bid, like the respect for human rights (free speech), respect for minorities (Kurds) or respect for an existent EU member (Cyprus).
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betuli,
I endorse your point that "geographic reasons to refuse Turkey membership are untennable". I think that you, AegeansArk and I can concur on that point.
My discussion with AgeansArk is simply one of geographical location of Turkey - my belief is that the EU can invite who it likes into the EU but being in the EU does not make Turkey any more a part of Europe than if the EU invites African countries south of the Mediterranean to seek EU membership or aligned with the EU in some form of trading bloc.
I certainly concur with your suggestion that Turkey could be blocked from membership of the EU because of the Turkish record on respect for human rights, respect for minorities and it's need to extricate itself from the occupied northern half of Cyprus.
They are probably some of the reasons that France will use to slow down, obstruct or even block Turkish full membership.
I am sure I don't particularly care whether Turkey joins the EU or not at this time. Should I care?
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@named-Erion
I don't think I can even begin to explain just how blinded to reality you seem to be. Bosniak/mujahedeen coalition militias freely roamed the countryside and carried out their own version of islamic terror. I know a few Serbs who have witnessed this and maybe you'd like to explain them why the islamic militias cut off the heads of their victims (amongst other unsavory things).
For the Bosniaks it was merely the continuation of what they had done during WW II when they (and the Croatian Pavelic regime) were allied to Nazi Germany. Many Croat militias in the 1990s even named themselves after their 'favorite' Ustasa regime member. Serbia on the other hand was allied to the pro British monarchy (they were known as the Cetniks).
It was the openly stated wish of the Ustasa to kill one in every three Serbs, convert one to catholicism and expel the third. Serbs and jews had to wear armbands so the Croat Ustase would know who they were. Pro nazi Bosniak units were so brutal in their 'treatment' of jews and serbs that even German SS commanders complained to Berlin.
The area now known as Kosovo was during WW II largely cleansed of Serbs by pro Nazi Albanian muslims (who now call themselves Kosovars). And now the Kosovars claim that they should have the territory.
Oh, SandroFontara (36), it's not a trauma for me. Why not? Because the Bosniaks and Croats committed at the very least acts that were equally brutal (and covered up by a western media conspiracy). Maybe you should be a little more critical and not swallow media propaganda blindly.
As I said before, it is clear from Izetbegovic' own writings that he planned to turn Bosnia into an islamic state and relegate non-muslims to 2nd class status. He resigned when the international community made clear they would not support that attempt.
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I can go into ww2 history as well,but it will take us to a very long conversation,and you will never agree,because you are here to claim your corner,while i am simply stating the facts.
Belgrade was the first city in Europe to declare itself FREE OF JEWS.
Now lets leave ww2 and come back to todays politics.
Serbia was the only country who had a regular army,and it was a regular army under the orders of crazy nationalist politicians who commited this crimes,thats the difference.
Croats could not have done crimes against the Serbs since they were not even armed until after horrible crimes had been commited aginst their people.
Bosniacs suffered the worst crimes ever,complete horror never seen before.
Sarajevo was under siege for years,a whole citys civilian population under siege ,under constant bombing and sniper killings for years.
I dont even want to talk about Srebrenica or the mass rapes.
How can that be a western conspiracy?
Have you not seen the thousends of graves?Have you not seen the milions murning the deaths of their loved ones?
Have you not seen the mass graves?
Have you not seen the lists of the thousends who are still missing ?
This crimes were commited under the orders of generals of regular armies,such as Karadizc and Mladic.Thats why they are war criminals,and thats why you should condemn them,and not say ,oh but this and oh but that.There is no if's and there is no But's.They are war criminals.
Dont exagerate the participation of Mujahedin in the Bosnian conflict.There were not so many of them as to have un impact on teh war,and there is no evidence that they have been commiting crimes or that they had any significant engagement during the war.If anything the western media would (and has already) exagerate their implication in a war in Europe,or crimes commited by them.As i said is typical of the Serbs after September 11 to play the Christian drama.
Let me remind you that after the bombing of the twin towers in 1994 Karadzic said that he could not rule out that it was Serbs who did it against americas foreign policy.
As i said no one could stop the revenge attacs on the Serbs after Croats,Bosniacs and Kosovars got armed.
But war criminals are considered the ones who deliberately take decicions,military or political decisions,to kill big numbers of civilian as sole target.
That was done by Karadzic
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May i point out that you should learn how to call people respectfully,they are not Albanian muslims,but Albanians,they dont call themselves Albanian muslims,and they dont like others to call them that,unless you want the world to start calling all nations in their religious affiliation,such us the English Christians,the Russian orthodox,or the Indian Hindus etc,plus the fact that all Albanians are not Muslims,a big part is christian,even though it would suit Serbian propaganda better if they were muslims.Albanians in general dont have and never had in history strong religious identity,thats why- drope it please.*
There is no historical evidence or collective national memory that such a thing as Ethnic cleansing of Serbs in Kosovo happened by Albanians,in contrary,there is to much historical evidence and collective national memory to sugest otherwise,that Serbians ethnicaly cleansed Albanians a few times during their rule of the region since 1912,when it was artificially given to serbia by the big power with the insistance of their big nice friend Russia.
It is though true that many Colonisers which were taken from montenegro to live in Kosovo as part of the demographic war between Serbs and Albanians were kicked out,but not by ethnic cleansing,but by making conditions of living harder.
As for colaboration between Albanians with teh NAZIS thats true,as much true as the colaboration of all countries ocupied by nazis was.There is no evidence that any crime against Sebs was commited by Albanians who fought for the Nazis.Could you give me some sources please?Could you give me some names?Could you tell me which massacre was commited?Could you tell me which trial of war criminals took place in Yougoslavia after the Nazis were defeted?Thats total propaganda.
The SS Skanderbeg divission was a ghost divission created by the Nazis in Kosovo that did not engage in any significant war.Such divissions existed as i said in every country in Europe ocupied by Nazis. If you know otherwise then please sources from respected Historians.I would be glad.
The only pro nazi significant groop in Albania and all the Albanian spectre was the National Front,who operated mainly within Albanias borders,even though it had many followers from Kosovo.That was efficently completely destroyed by the Partisans of Albania who won the war and pushed the Germans so far north that they liberated many towns in Yougoslavia itself.
AS for Bosnia i told you that there was no Religious extremism in Bosnia before they were left by Europe an civilian population at the mercy of buchers like Karadzic and Mladic.Of course Islamists took advantage of that,but still there is no significant religious extremism in Bosnia.So stop suporting your arguments by implicating the religious element of the story.
There were crimes commited,and the most brutal crimes were civilians and all towns were targeted ,not for resources,not for looting,not for overthrowing a government or a dictator,not to capture an enemy,but simply to deliberately kill en mass.
And this crimes were commited by Karadzic,Mladic,Arkan and Miloshevic and their other nationalistic criminals.
There is no defending those actions.
In my opinion Balkans will find peace when Serbians live in Serbia,Croatians in Croatia,Bosnians in Bosnia and Albanians in Albania.I hope politicians will come to understand that one day.
One of the solutions for the Kosovo conflict could be the population exchange between Kosovo Serbs and Albanians who live in South of Serbia,they are simmilar in number and territory.
Serbia is showing no signs of ever wanting to live side by side with Albanians.
There have been demonstrations in Belgrade for two days now in suport of Karadzic.
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He was not captured. His friends turned him in. All great police work takes some Quislings and traitors to make it work like a smooth machine.
Like Mugabe, he was/is out of step with globalism. You cannot look at your little spot on Earth and think it is the universe. Somehow Third World tyrants always do. What Karadzic and Mugabe need and needed was a trip to the United States so they can see what power and materialism is. Every foregner who comes here and gets the xenophobic treatment goes home with a clear head knowing that he does not matter in the broad sceme of things in the universe.
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Wow!!! Amazing!
Menedemus and Named-Erion, you guys (or girls, not sure...) are totally obsessed with serbs.
Funny, only Named is providing 'facts.' and everybody else is lying. HA!!!!!!!!!!
Perhaps you forgot about the 3500 serbs (including women and children) that were killed by the bosniaks in and around srebrenica, in the years before your 'massacre.' Maybe then srebrenica should be considered 'revenge' or a 'revenge attack' for the earlier slaughter of serbs, since you seem to suggest that revenge attacks are acceptable and justified.
You also mention that there was no religious extremism in bosnia before karadzich. Well, what about Izebegovich's Islamic Manifesto? Just a children's fairytale perhaps? You should do a google search on this, and establish a publication date for this transcript (you should read it too). Then, compare this against karadzich's whereabouts at that time.
Further, as for nazi collaborations: the skenderbeg nazis were some of the worst ones, since the italians couldn't control them in the mountains. numerous serbs from kosovo were killed and sent to refugee status. It was tito who suppressed much of the justice from wwii in an effort to create 'ethnic harmony,' carefully entrenching his dictatorship, in the hopes of usurping albania as well within his delusions of grandeur.
BTW, I should note that the serbs were the only country in europe to overthrow their government who made plans to cooperate with nazi germany. They overthrew (1941), and sent into exile, Prince Paul who signed the tripartite agreement. The british helped, but screwed up more than buck-toothed donkeys in supporting tito after the war. The people of no other country in europe overthrew a government in this way, utterly regardless of where the boarders of europe are to be arbitrarily defined.
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As a Serb I hold Karadjic as a hero, he is the father of republika srpska! Personally I don't see any benefits to joining the EU. We just cam out off a Union called Yugoslavia and it came back to bite us! The powers at be love making these so called "Unions" as it sets up a future war if required. The west can call him all they want, but myself along with the great majority of us will teach our kids that he was a hero, and he always will be to us.
I do beleive that the real truth will come out in 50 years or so. Drazo Mihajlovic was called a Nazi collaborator and executed by the Allied backed communists, 60 years later his daughter was give a Medal of honour in his name for the rescue of 500 US service men!
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Good.
Now for all the other Nazis that are being allowed to walk free...
ALL mass murderers must be punished...
Come on international courts: DO YOUR JOB.
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To Menedeus, #53
We discord in harmony.
A spell-checker is already provided for Mac users.
To betuli, #54
I 100% agree. Respect for minorities must be a sine qua non of EU membership.
One link, no comment:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-picture-that-shames-italy-873743.html
To Boris_Oz, #61
I hope those who share your view constitute only a minority in Serbia. Please do not ignore your kids' right to liberal education in future.
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To Named-Erion
Firstly your comment about being Jew free is absurd! If you ever go to the Holocaust musuem in Israel wou will see a complete wall thanking th people of Serbia inc Belgrade for sheltering the Jews.
Based on your comments so far you are not the type to visit Israel. Present Day Hasim Thaci wanted to kill serbs so badly he joined the Croatian army for the privilage!
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To AegeanArk
Liberal Education???
I will teach them that the victor's write the history books. During the time of yugoslavia the liberally educated were taught that Drazo Mihajlovic was a Nazi collaborator, the non liberals who new the truth always taught there kids that Drazo was a hero! 60 years later the US award him a Medal of Honour! Most of the events in the balkans during the 90's were written by paid US PR firms financed by George Soros and co.
I will teach my kids to question the mainstream and not accept everything that is fed to them by the nightly news!
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extraordinaryjoe999 @ 60
To be honest I don't give a fig for the Serbs, or the Albanian or the Bosnians or the Croats.
What I resent is that after 13 years of prevarication, obstruction, and deceit by the Serbians in protecting Radovan Karadzic, as soon as Serbia is offered a Trade Agreement with the EU - you hand him over and some Serbians are even thinking that this is all they need to do to get the keys to entry to the EU.
No hint of remorse from the Serbians for their part in the Balkans War. Typical responses from Serbian comments in this thread have been either "They did it first", "We didn't do anything that they didn't do" or even " We didn't do anything wrong!". Yeah, right!
Serbians sound to me like martyrs to the cause of nationalism.
I do accept that there were atrocities on both sides. I even accept that Serbia may not have had the best of times since way back when.
But two wrongs do not make a right and the one thing that is clear to me and that comes through to me as a reader of this thread is that there is scant thought of any remorse for what the Serbians did to their erstwhile citizenns of Yugoslavia that just happened to belong to other ethnic group(s).
Serbians just come across as being sanctimonious nationalists to whom it's okay to beat up on other people for their differences of ethnicity or religion and then, like all bullies, when confronted by the truth, blame it all on everyone else but themselves.
The Balkans are like a kindergarden, Serbia is undoubtedly the big kid on the block but it's people do not take with it the responsibility that goes with that superiority.
The worst thing is that Serbians seem to almost ignore the fact that the Balkans War, between 1991 and 1995, cost 97, 000 lives and the vast majority were not Serbians. Any sign of sorrow at the loss of life from Serbians. Not a bit of it.
That makes me sure that, at this time, Serbia is not a fit state to join the EU. Serbia has yet to grow up and take responsibility for what Serbians did in the Balkans War!
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Thanks for proving my point Menedemus with that most recent diatribe. At least you are objective with the numbers you are quoting. Lack of sorrow for the war dead is pervasive among all groups of the former yugoslavia, except towards their own dead. You seem to forget that bosniaks also fought -the croats and -themselves. So, their losses came through fighting 3 fronts. However, you ridiculously make it sound like the serbs killed everybody, and they don't have remorse for actions of other people.
Perhaps in your own righteousness, you could provide your own ethnicity, as 'criminal remorselessness' can be found in numerous societies and nationalities. For example, did the dutch ever apologize or even express remorse over the brutal, vicious, and genocidal african slave trade? No, but they are still home to the Hague tribunal, for whatever reason. Are the millions of africans any less important than 100,000 serbs, bosniaks, and croats? We need to determine your level of hypocrisy as well.
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Ok.In one of his horrible poems Karadzic among other stupid things writes as follows.
(Lets go down to the cities to kill the scumbags*)
Or this one aswell.
(Now that i am this crazy fervour of mine,i could do just about anything.So your stupid rotten vain souls would not stare at me with their stupid peacefull eyes.*)
I am sorry,but to claim that this man can be a hero,is maddness.
And yes just for the record,Belgrade was the first city in Europe to claim itself free of Jews.
I know that the only country in Europe that sheltered its Jews was Albania not Serbia.
And in the Holocaust museum in Israel is writen about all people who helped Jews in Europe,not only about Serbs.
Anyway back to the topic,Hashim Thaci was not in the Croatian army,but Agim Ceku was.He was a general of the Yougoslav army who decided to help Croatia during the war rather then Serbia.And thats enough logical an action.
And i did not say that revenge attacs are Justifiable but that they are inevitable consecuence.
No mass killing against Serbs was commited by any regular army.But mass killings of Serb neioughbours have been commited by regular Serb army under the orders of the man whose lovely poems i have posted above.
And as i said he targeted town ,not for looting,not for oil,not for capturing enemys,or for overthrowing governments,but for the only SICK REASON OF KILLING CIVILIANS.
I am not saing that Serbs should be brought to justice nationaly,but that war criminals should.Every sides war criminals.
I am not saing that all Villagers or all Soldiers who commited crimes should be brought to justice,but those who ordered the killing of thousends of civilians should.
There is no question about it.
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There we go again.
How on earth can you rake up historical precedence for something that happened before living memory as an example of why anyone living today can be in some way exhonerated from the crimes that occurred in the Balkans 15 years ago.
For heavens sake, if you hold people of today up for account of what their great-great-grandfather's did we would be rounding up millions of people for crimes against mankind.
What the Dutch did or did not do 200 years ago or what the Germans did a mere 60 years ago cannot be visited as blame upon the babies born after 1945.
On top of that, are you seriously suggesting that the high death toll was caused by Croat on Bosnian or Bosnian on Croat and the poor innocent Serbians were the ones caught in the crossfire? Merely innocent bystanders! When the war started the Croats and Bosnians had no regular army to speak of - the Serbs had the backing of the not too shabby Regular Yugoslavia Army. Not exactly powerless bystanders were they?
To paraphrase, "We are innocent, it was not us that did it. It was those dastardly Croats and Bosnians that did most of the killing!"
You make me laugh but it really is so sad that Serbians cannot accept ANY blame!
May I just remind you of how the Balkans War started:-
It was March 1992 at at the Sarjevo Holiday Inn, Radovan Karadzic, the leader of the Bosnian Serbs, urged a boycott of the referendum on Bosnian independence: Bosnian-Muslims and Bosnian-Croats voted for it, the Bosnian-Serbs all stayed away.
It was in the Holiday Inn, shortly afterwards, in one of the conference rooms, that Karadzic declared the secession of the Bosnian-Serbs from the rest of Bosnia. And it was there that he and his bodyguards fled for their lives after a peace demonstration was attacked by gunfire in April 1992.
The shots were fired from the Serbs' own office.
There were subsequently atrocities committed on all sides in the folowing few years but it was the Bosnian Serbs who started this and the State of Serbia who came to their 'rescue' and perpetrated the worst manner of degradation of all of the 'ethnic groups' in order to maintain the State of Yugoslavia.
You can blame the Dutch for what they did 200 years ago, the British for what they did 300 years ago, and maybe anyone else who has a spotted history in committing war crimes against humanity over 100 hundred years ago but the truth is you cannot blame war crimes, committed by people who are dead, on their children's children's children.
However, one can challenge the people who commit crimes against humanity within living memory and say to them - look you did this . . . and ask them to show some remorse!
The Serbians who committed war crimes in 1992-1995 are still alive and living free among Serbian Society - are they sorry at all? Are the majority of Serbian citizens sorry at all? Are they 'eck!
Do I want to see Serbia just given a trade agreement with the EU just because, after 13 years, they 'suddenly' find Karadzic living amongst them? Do I 'eck!
Do I want to see Serbia invited to join the EU without them showing any sign of contrition about the way THEY behaved in the Balkans War? Do I 'eck!
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so, you suggest that just because something happened before 'living memory' that it should be forgotten or forgiven?
does the formation of human swastikas during croat football matches show remorse for ustasha crimes during ww2?
or, is it as you suggest, that these 'kids' were born after ww2, and that their actions are therefore justified since they don't 'remember' these brutal crimes?
you can still buy videos in bosnian markets that depict the mujahedeen behedding their serb captives during the bosnian war. does this show remorse for these victims?
i am not saying that the serbs are innocent, as you absurdly suggest. what i'm saying is that as long as a side exists that is claiming guiltlessness in this war, there is no incentive for any other group to act any differently.
btw, everybody makes various claims about who started the war. perhaps we can blame izetbegovich with his islamic and nationalist manifesto and refusal to accept the portugese cantonization plan after a visit from zimmermann. serbs and croats alike accepted this plan.
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Hey Named, here is some more poetry for you...
"The Islamic movement must, and can, take over power as soon as it is morally and numerically so strong that it can not only destroy the existing non-Islamic power, but also build up a new Islamic one… There is no peace or coexistence between the Islamic faith and non-Islamic social and political institutions."
Izetbegovich, Islamic Declaration, 1970.
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extraordinaryjoe999 @ 70
"so, you suggest that just because something happened before 'living memory' that it should be forgotten or forgiven?"
No, I do not suggest that at all but I do think that two wrongs do not make a right.
The Dutch may have been responsible for slavery trade (I thought it was the French, Spanish and British mainly but that's another matter!) but you cannot justify crimes against humanity committed 15 years ago because another nation committed crimes agaianst humanity 200 years ago.
That is not only crass and stupid to suggest - it is utterly contemptible.
"does the formation of human swastikas during croat football matches show remorse for ustasha crimes during ww2?"
No. And in my view such boorish and asinine behaviour should be prosecuted by Croat Authorities. Also the football authorities, FIFA and UEFA, should take action if it is reported to them.
"you can still buy videos in bosnian markets that depict the mujahedeen behedding their serb captives during the bosnian war. does this show remorse for these victims?"
No. It is inexcusable. This should be stopped by the Bosnian Authorities.
"I am not saying that the serbs are innocent, as you absurdly suggest. what i'm saying is that as long as a side exists that is claiming guiltlessness in this war, there is no incentive for any other group to act any differently."
That is the mindset of a child when they have been involved in a fight in the school. He will say with pouting lips, "I'm not saying sorry until he does!" .
What the Croats and Bosnian did or did not do is not an excuse for Serbia to not apologise for what the Serbians did!
This Blog item is about the capture of Radovan Karadzic after 13 years of being 'hidden' within Serbia and the suitability for Serbia to be (a) offered a Trade Agreement with the EU and (b) offered invitation to join the EU as a member state.
The thesis is that if Serbia can demonstrate sufficient penitence then it should be invited to apply for membership of the EU.
If the Serbian mentality is "We are not sorry because the other side are not sorry first" then the EU should just put any offerings on hold until Serbia and Serbians grow up!
It certainly does not seem right to me to move to step (b) above and offer Serbia the invitation to apply to join the EU.
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menedemus wrote: "I'm not saying sorry until he does!"
Unfortunately it has been the case in that region for some time and they are not going to forgive and forget for a long long time.
I don't think telling Serbia to ''grow up'' is going to change the political and military situation.
It is obviously an issue you take very seriously; but you are putting words into other people's mouths.
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humans always act like children. for example, we all compulsively have to get the last word, which is why i continue to write instead of doing something better with my time.
spite and resentful behaviour, however, is not unique to serbia, the balkans, or europe. we all learn it as children, as you picturesquely describe, and despite how strongly we believe in our own objectivity, it's pretty hard to ignore pointing fingers, especially when those fingers also drip with blood. This is the only point I am trying to make. However, you seem to conclude that this is an attempt to justify criminal activity; a statement which couldn’t be further from the truth. additionally, although it is true that the vast majority of the Bosnian war dead were not serbs, they were also not croats or bosniaks either. Please do not construe this as any kind of justification, just context.
sure, there is a need for the 'bigger man' on your playground, one that will apologise first, but that's not human nature. remember, they found gotovina on vacation (recently) for creep’s sake. did he apologise yet?
so, what do you think of croatia's and bosnia's accession then?
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Mark:
It took only a decade (and a few years additionally) to capture Mr. Karadzic....
If he chooses, to stay in Belgrade, Serbia, to fight the "transfer"...
The next step (one of many), is for him to be transferred to the Hague [to the International Court of Justice] and do the formality of having a trial....
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ExtraordinaryJoe999, trying to communicate a small piece of truth to people that not only are not ashamed of expressing strong opinions against Serbians without having the slightest knowledge about the Balkans and "whoiswho" there but who also would rather have their hand cut than admit the responsibility of their governments and, why not, indirectly their own collective responsibility (for swallowing all the junk they are force-fed and giving full moral support to criminal gepolitical games).
Jugoslavia was a large federal country in a sensitive area. Imagine that when Chechoslovakians decided to split in piece this was almost "joyfully hailed" by Europeans (especially Germans) who want small less powerfull countries in their periphery. If they would do happily the same with Poland but Poland is one nation. Jugoslavia was a blatant case: a very large federal state with increased gepolitical independence, a real danger - albeit based on the glass legs Tito had given it: most of its nationalities were fighting for long against a central government that was supported mainly (and perhaps only) by Serbians for the very simple reason that it was the lands of Serbians that had been chopped up and shared by other nationalities and not the opposite - hence Serbians in artificial federal states of Croacia and Bosnia naturally wanted maintaining Jugoslavia in order not to be casted into different states that were highly aggresive against their nationality (imagine that even in the 70s there were Croacian and Bosnian terrorist groups that somehow found considerbale support among the non-implicated croato-serbian populations, more than say what ETA finds among Basques - remember the bomb in the JAT plane in the 70s resulting in that miraculous case of air-hostess surviving the explosion and the 4000m free-fall with a couple of broken legs (she was soon fine - but Jugoslavia's legs and head had been broken irreperably).
Divide and conquer. The aim of Europeans and US (US to be honest jumped a bit later when it saw the opportunity opened by Europeans) was to divide the country into small completely powerless states of little to no historical standing - some even no reason to exist (Bosnia, Kosovo, FYROM) other than the fact that a mad-communist and criminal dictator Tito had created them!!! .... and isolate of course the strongest player, that was the Serbians.
It was pre-planned that the Serbians would play the role of the "bad guy". No matter what they did they would be the bad guys. That fairytale about innnocent Croacians and Bosnians and Albanians that "reacted to Serbian aggression" still continues under the hypocritical witch-hunting of supposed war criminals single-handedly among Serbians.
All I am saying is that a little shame could be usefull for some of you around that dare have an opinion. Shame...
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And specifically for the "genocide of Serbrenica" I have only one thing to say: you have absolutely no idea of what happened there. Had you read the exact events there or not? What exactly had happened, what was the exact role of the Dutch forces there and who had dropped the real bombs? Let me add 1-2 comments to place some people here right:
During spring time of 1995 muslim guerillas had repeatedly hit (and notably without previous local provocation) the neighbouring Serbian villages that eventually asked help from the Serbian (Serbobosnian) forces that arrived there and since being better organised and armed quickly re-establishing the order. Given the situation there was not more work there for Serbians. However, there you go! You had those Dutch UN forces there that claimed having created the "security heaven" in Serbrenica thus attracting all disperced muslims guerilla muslims to place there their women and children in order to fight Serbians without the stress of having to protect them - i.e. basically having Dutch forces protecting armed guerillas during civil strife! Then Serbian guerillas arriving around the town and asking Dutch forces to remain neutral and at least asking them to disarm the uncontrolled muslim guerillas - Dutch had only made a feeble effort to disarm the guerillas and thus you had virtually uncontrolled attacks from muslim guerillas coming out of Dutch controlled Serbrenica. Serbians did not reply with any attack but lightly shelled the area in order to show their persistence that all muslim opposition had to be put down, then based on this as-if Serbian provocation, Dutch not only refused to remain neutral but asked the US planes to bomb Serbian positions who had 100% right to attack directly the criminal Dutch since they were not any more peace forces but had taken clearly a military position) but still respecting the UN role, they simply abducted Dutch soldiers and asked NATO forces not to attack them... (who was criminal then? Serbians or Dutch and NATO forces?). Serbians understanding that in Serbenica there were women and children among armed guerillas they permitted them to leave in peace (who was then the criminal against non-fighting population?), thus remaining there Dutch forces and muslim men (some armed some not). In a final moment, Dutch declared they would leave their position after having protected muslim guerillas but also half-disarming them and then leaving them there at the mercy of Serbian forces... Unimaginable! Naturally Serbians stormed the place and killed a number of them but then even the high number of 7500 dead men has never been verified as lots of the names of people given for that slaughter actually had died all along the 2 months of the confict and in different locations. If anything Serbians had suffered the same number of dead
Serbrenica was a tragic event. There is no doubt that Serbians stormed the place and killed a lot. But there is absolutely no doubt that this was no genocidal massacre and not the crime that the west wants to present. Such scenes were repeated unfortunately very often during that war and by everyone. If anyone acted criminally that was most certainly the UN forces and their manipulation of everyone there. The Dutch have to make their own apology over the events.
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Serbs, Croats, Bosnians all committed horrors upon each other. The blame should go to the individuals and entities that ignited this tragedy. Of course everyday people always pay the price for their leaders insane and ruinous behaviour. Thats why individuals and groups responsable must be brought to justice to show other would be leaders that they cannot get away with such acts. Hopefully a future insane leader will think twice before using his populace as a tool for extreme nationalism. Mark
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E_Nikolaos_E @ #76 and especially #77
What are you trying to do. Blame the NATO forces for the siege of Srebrenicia and the deaths of 10,000 people.
Your justifications for the capture and use of Dutch UN Peacekeepers as a human shield is the worst kind of lunatic excuse I think I have ever heard.
This is sheer nationalistic twaddle! You should be ashamed of yourself for spewing out such drivel!
It is this kind of insane nationalism that makes me glad that the EU Ambassadors have agreed to not offer Serbia an invitation to join the EU.
Serbians just don't seem to know how to say sorry but like all bullies want to blame everyone else!
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1.
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