Spotlight on tribunal
The Chinese herbalist has not yet arrived in the cell being made ready for him. Not only did Radovan Karadzic have the gall to appear on video at alternative medicine conferences, he even had his own website. I don't know for sure if this is genuine, but check it out. Also check out the e-mail address -some things are beyond irony: healingwounds@dragandabic.com 
Behind the jutting-out razor wire and high walls on the outskirts of The Hague are 37 prisoners, all accused or convicted war criminals. Eight TV trucks and many fellow hacks wait to see when a helicopter may fly over those sturdy walls and deliver a 38th. It probably won't be today: his lawyer says Mr Karadzic has three days to appeal, and he's going to leave it to the very last moment.
The prison is a 10-minute drive away from the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. It is where Mr Karadzic's eventual fate will be pronounced, but it is also where Serbs should turn their ears to hear more immediate news of their country's future. It will come from a man who should understand the complexity of ethnic disputes - he is from Belgium's German-speaking minority. Serge Brammertz took over at the beginning of this year from Carla del Ponte as the tribunal's chief prosecutor. The European Union will take its cue from him. If he says Serbia is "co-operating fully" then it will be rewarded by the EU.
So far the EU's foreign ministers have been cautious. They've praised the fact of the arrest, but they don't want to fall over themselves rewarding Serbia too early. The Swedes, Belgians and Dutch are particularly concerned not to count their war criminals before they are all caught. But if Mr Brammertz speaks out then a meeting of EU ambassadors is likely to look at ways of offering an improved trade deal and they could look at something that matters to a lot of Serbs - loosening the visa requirements for visiting EU countries.
BoraTok (comment 11 yesterday) makes a good point: what is the link between a criminal being caught and their country joining the EU? Most European Union governments are, if not wracked with guilt, at least deeply aware of their multiple failures in the Yugoslav civil wars and want to ensure that region never again returns to violence. They believe that depends on a somewhat penitent Serbia joining most of the rest of Europe in the EU, and using that organisation as a forum for solving regional disputes, rather than what might be called more traditional methods. There is a lot you could question in the last sentence, but I am explaining how they think, not promoting it.
While Serbs wait to hear whether the EU will reward their government, we drum our thumbs at The Hague. This sort of story is what is often at the core of hard news. Not just an interesting tale with real significance. I rather mean a lot of frantic rushing around, followed by a lot of waiting around. And then, I suspect a picture of a helicopter.
It also fits one of my definitions of a classic news story: something that manages to be a complete surprise and utterly predictable. I was just about to resume the Newsnight filming I wrote about earlier, after a short break (Mick aka Slugger reveals my whereabouts in his Telegraph blog.) I had a mad journey that started at seven o'clock in a field in Dorset, and then delivered me in London for a lunchtime meeting, carried on by tube and train to Surrey to pick up my bag, and ended up in a Berlin hotel at just after midnight. As I switched on the TV, a breaking news flash starts crawling across the bottom of the screen and I started re-packing my bags and phoning the news desk.
That's what I mean. To me and everyone else a complete and total surprise that it happened at that moment (which excites journalists), but predictable in that it would happen at some time (which reassures journalists). But it was also a surprise that it was Mr Karadzic who was caught first. Many thought he really was out of reach, in the mountains or overseas, but that the fugitive Bosnian Serb General Ratko Mladic could be found quickly if the will was there. But no-one I have spoken to thinks there is any deeper interpretation to be read into this fact. But it's something to talk about while we wait for a fleeting glimpse of a helicopter.
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
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The Hague isn't the capital of the netherlands. its the seat of goverment.
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I'm at a loss here.
Ex heads of state being tried for war crimes against humanity?
Err Hiroshima? Blanket bombing of civilian poulations? Recently iraq? The infrastructure destroyed? Sanctions to stop food getting in? Koffi annan Cash for food?
Get a life.
The precious EU using the hague building ex gestapo HQ
Yeah we get the message. Depends who has the power whether war crimes apply.
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firelight49 is correct: The Hague is not the capital of The Netherlands (although it is where the government is seated). The capital of The Netherlands is Amsterdam. Back of the class for you, Mr Mardell.
And the EU is certainly not going to even think about inviting Serbia into The Club until it coughs up Ratko Mladic. Serbia is still potentially unstable while he's still on the run.
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Mark, the dragandabic.com site is a web folly. It was created yesterday afternoon. You can check this with a 'whois' lookup. His real site is listed elsewhere on the bbc -
http://www.psy-help-energy.com/Index.html
The thing that makes this somewhat obvious is the use of the English language on the site and his listed favourite chinese proverbs. The one about birds nesting in your hair was very funny (see pre-santa pics of old "pointy shoes") and the last one in the list might be a bit of a warning for someone. let's hope not.
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#2. The geneva convention was ammended in 1949 to make the specific targetting of civillians a war crime. According to 1945 laws Hiroshima was totally legal... in fact given that Japan used biological weapons on Chinese cities first and carpet bombed Nanking, not to mention its treatment of POW's I'd even argue that Hiroshima was justice.
Iraq on the other hand is totally different. The allies have taken incredible measure to AVOID collateral damage. Saddam pulled stunts like putting SAM missiles on the roof's of hospitals to try and create civillian casualties for his own political gain. Much of the infastructure and most of the civillian deaths in Iraq have been caused by arab insurgents, not us.
My best mate at work is an Iraqi pathologist who will tell you first hand about sanctions: SADDAM interupted the flow of food and medicine getting to the Iraqi people (you may remember the scheme was called 'oil for food') so that his allies in the west like Galloway could have some ammo to bad-mouth us while making Saddam out to be a saint.
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To add to what billy_carryduff wrote: I also noticed that it was fake. Karadzic would not plaster his website with pictures of himself while in hiding. Even if his disguise was good, that would have been too much.
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The way the story of Karadzic's capture is unfolding, it looks as if the new government in Serbia do deserve praise. The state intelligence services had deliberately blocked the Criminal Court's search team from gaining information that would have tracked him down earlier - until, that is, the new PM put his own man in charge, about a month ago.
Then everyone on his tail started to get access to vital info. Karadzic clearly had help from many quarters: would those involved count as "criminals" too (before the Court), for helping him evade justice?
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It is "racked" with guilt, as in the Mediaeval torture implement, rather than "wracked" (wrack is seaweed). Also as in "rack and ruin", as they are unlikely to over-indulge in rack of lamb. Unless our Raddy is booked on a US rendition flight to Den Haag.
It always was a matter of "when" rather than "if" he was caught. Karadzic was living quite openly surrounded by his goons, if various news reports are to be believed. This will have tipped off his pal Mladic and made it more difficult to nab him, unless he is under constant watch so that the authorities know where to find him.
The big shock about the news coverage was the uncanny resemblance between the undercover Karadzic and the late Hyde GP Dr. Harold Shipman.
The politicians in power in Belgrade have obviously decided that chauvinistic nationalism is all very well, but in order to prosper in this world it is necessary to embrace the standards of decency and morality to which civilised nations aspire. Whether this is a genuine desire to play a full part in European affairs, only time will tell.
Meanwhile, put Raddy in a cell and play the Serbian entry to the Eurovision Song Contest at high volume over and over again. He will soon confess.
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Perhaps more interesting than the arrest and inevitable conviction of Karadic, will be just what he has to say regarding the speculation about a deal from Holbrooke that promised Karadic impunity from prosecution in return for acceptance of the, very unfortunate for all concerned, Dayton Agreement.
As the BBC story below suggests hard evidence of this is unlikely to surface but the former Chief Prosecutor of the ICTY, Carla Del Ponte, was sure such a deal had been made. Will Karadic try to call Holbrooke as a witness? He might try but the chances of him appearing must be slim to say the least.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7062288.stm
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Mark, come on. Lets be serious. I hope that you will include this to let people hear the other side (and more real) of the story:
No matter the extend of direct/indirect guilt, there are not more real proofs that Rado (Karazic) is responsible for war crimes than what was found for Slobo (Milosevic). The latter all alone easily stood and defended himself to the point that judges and prosecutors felt harming their professional image while after a 5-6 years "Hague" the as-if fair trial somehow enterred a strange phase of converging more into being a close-to-being fair trial due to the unimportance of the fate of Slobo in both Serbia and the international community (including Russia and China that set aside the case of its embassy) and thus the whole affair stalled: the solution was to let Slobo die away from an illness that not even homeless people that die nowadays.
Can I predict a similar farce for Rado? Or are there any new things on the table between US Russia and/or China that will influence the decisions in relation also to the future of Serbia? What about the new gaz pipeline in the Black Sea Russia-Bulgaria that the US fought so fiercely to prevent? Don't you think it has any relevance with EU's sudden interest for Serbia and Serbia's sudden love for the EU and Russias relative silence and US relative satisfaction but also apprehensiveness?
As for war crimes, the majority of them came not after orders of leaders but out of the indisciplined guerillas from all sides but really, who cares out of all of you? Do not pretend that you really care. I saw not many of you searching in Croacia, Bosnia or Albania - most of them became nowadays local politicians or regional consultants respected internationally and receiving medals - not hiding as alternative medicine doctors...
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Also, I doubt on his website he would use the same pictures as we got to see in the press.
Or did the AFP just take the pictures from his website?
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#9 - billy_carryduff
How could Holbrooke possibly make such an offer? The United States has excluded itself from the whole ICC process.
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" As for war crimes, the majority of them came not after orders of leaders but out of the indisciplined guerillas from all sides but really, who cares out of all of you? "
Thats true for Bosnians and Croats (and very nasty some of the atrocities were). It doesn't hold true for crimes commited by the federal Yugoslav army which was controlled by the Serbs. The concentration camps set up in Bosnia were not the work of 'guerillas' and neither was the murder of 8000 in Srbrenica. The bombardment of civillians in Sarajevo was done by regular Yugoslav troops and the guys stopping our aid convoys reaching those who needed it wore Yugoslav army uniforms.
the reason I know that? I was there. I spent a miserable 4 months with the TA in the Balkans and want to see those behind the atrocities punished (ideally at the end of a rope... little chance of that in the Hague)
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"But no-one I have spoken to thinks there is any deeper interpretation to be read into this fact."
Yes, there is. Whereabouts of Ratko Mladic were well known to good people from Serbian Ministry of Defense, where the general had been collecting his military pension at leats till the end of 2005, when news about it hit the fan.
However it was much easier and less risky for the Serbian government to arrest Karadic, who always was a polarizing figure and was disliked by many of Milosevic's associates, than Mladic, whom many Serbs still consider a great soldier and a national hero.
So, if Mladic is suddenly "found" it would only occur if Belgrade established that at that point he would be a crucial bargaining chip in negotiations with Brussels over Serbia's EU membership.
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I have noticed that the people on this blog take things in their oversimplified form and then tend to argue for one side or the other. News agencies and EU officials talk about "Serbian government" as if it is some unified decision body. At the moment there are over 5 democratic parties in Serbia, Radical Party, Socialist Party and a number of smaller parties all taking part in the Parlament. If you are from eg. England you don't really have to know these facts. It would be foolish to expect you to do. But if you want to discuss the issue, please inform yourself. Serbia is polarized to that extent that Democratic Party and Socialist Party had to from a coalition so the country has any government at all. These parties have been in "disagreement" for years now since former president Milosevic was the leader of the Socialist Party while the leader of Democratic Party was late Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic. That is the first point I wanted to make. Second, Kradzic was the president and Mladic the general during the time when political, military, police and economical influence was one and the same. These people had and still have connections. You cannot expect them not to have. These individuals are "satanized" as if they went alone with guns in their hands and killed civilians. Ofcourse it was a network of people involved and these people have to protect them for their own interest. This is all very normal. As far as common people which make 95% of the country, no one knows or is being asked where are these people. They have no say. They live their lifes like everybody else. People seem to forget there is real life going on in places like Serbia in this case. Serbian government, which I had already stressed is far from an unified body, is not an organization of inanimate objects. Aforementioned late Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic who extradicted Milosevic to the Hague was assassinated for it. He had a family to leave behind him. This is the real life. People sitting on their computers and typing their smart comments are not actually involved in the dynamics of life in Serbia. These things take time and lot of courage. This is not a video game on your computer. Have some respect for the people who are working there for the better and stop undervaluing the effort.
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#12 - threnodio
The ICC is not involved in the prosecution of 'former Yugoslav' war criminals. This is carried out by the ICTY (International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia), an adhoc UN tribunal that was in fact, one of the pre-cursors to the formation of the permanent ICC (International Criminal Court), which as you correctly point out, the United States has refused to comply with.
The contention re Holbrooke is that in 1995 during negotiations with all sides in the conflict, Holbrooke's team found themselves far from a solution. It was at this point and under the duress to produce an accord and end the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina, that Holbrooke is accused of making promises to Karadic that the international community could not and would not keep.
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It should be pointed out that it would be wrong to consider the prosecution of Slobodan Milosevic as an analogue of the proposed prosecution of Radovan Karadic. The problem faced by the Hague Tribunal’s prosecutors regarding Milosevic was proving a chain of command, from the death camps in Bosnia to the leadership in Serbia. There will be no such problem with Karadic. He was not as some posters may believe a Serbian leader. He was a Bosnian leader of Serb ethnicity, leading his ethnic group within Bosnia, President of his creation, the Republika Srpska. An entity born out of ethnic cleansing and ratified by the Dayton Agreement.
Slobodan Milosevic’s death is considered, by most independent parties, to be the result of a desperate gamble on his part to avoid what was, at that point, a certain conviction. By secretly refusing to take his medication he hoped to facilitate a deterioration of his health. What he hoped to gain from this is of course open to speculation. The gamble proved fatal.
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This is just going to be the circus everyone wants it to be, a case that will last a very long time, and in the end the "Serb" war criminal will be handed down a sentance of 40 years or life while the croat, albanian and bosniak warlords are acquitted or given sentences of 10 years or less over their parts in the war, and we just die a little inside........at least though Karadzic while he was in hiding was helping people and not hiding in some caves like an animal that he was comapred to.
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@dan6713 (2)
you'll find that this socalled Yugoslavia tribunal is just another example of victors justice.
This all started with the farcical Nuremberg trials. First of all, all 4 powers sitting in judgment of Nazi leaders, were all guilty in their own past of genocide themselves (Europeans who committed massive genocide in both north and south America, Soviets who had killed some 20 million of their own people, USA who continued the anti-native Indian campaign of the Europeans).
One of the Russian judges had even presided over the Moscow show trials of the 1930s. The Tokyo tribunal was even more farcical, the #1 war criminal at the time (Hirohito) wasn't even charged with anything, and the crimes of unit 731 completely ignored.
This Yugoslavia tribunal is no different. It refused to prosecute the #1 war criminal Izetbegovic (on some dubious ground that they weren't allowed -whilst at the same time gladly prosecuting Milosevic). I still suspect that they may be extremely happy Milosevic died prematurely because the case I saw against him was extremely weak. Of course, they had to completely ignore a long history of Croat and especially Bosniak crimes against the Serbs.
You all remember those picture of the socalled concentration camp, right? Turns out those were people on the outside looking in. Another dirty propaganda campaign waged by the western media (headlined by the New York Times, which always seems to be on the wrong side of everything). And central theme in the media campaign: "don't blame islam for anything" (despite overwhelming evidence it might well be the most intolerant and murderous ideology of all time).
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I cannot believe the comments of the Serbian "Apologists" here.
If it's not "The ICJ is a banana court", it is the the ICJ is an "example of victors justice".
Then, to make matters worse the "Apologists" will suggest that Karadzic's crimes are not crimes or suggest that the Bosnian Serbs, Croats and other minorities were treated more leniently than the Serbians or that the evidence is all a figmant of the 'western european' mind.
It's almost like a Martyr's Complex.
There are 11 serious counts against Karadzic and he is innocent at this moment in time. However, if one reads the counts with which he is charged and Carla del Ponte's summation of the evidence against him, then 40 years is a light sentence for him - if he is found guilty.
The charges and supporting background facts are available here: http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/kar-ai000428e.htm
It makes lamentable reading and, if true, is an indictment of the Yugoslav Army and the Serbian People as much as Karadzic himself!
There seems to be scant signs of any penitence on the part of Serbia (and the Apologists here seem to represent this lack of penitence) so, in my view, simply handing Karadzic over to the ICJ is a small step but hardly signifies that Serbia is fit to become an EU member state.
This is especially so as Serbians have clearly supported the worst kind of human degradation of other humans and do so without any apology to the victims but still seem to hold themselves as either innocent of any crimes or above reproach.
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Karadzic is a war criminal,who went in hiding fro 13 years knowing full well the extent of suffering his decisions brought on neighbouring people.
Srebrenica massacre is not only (as media normaly says it is ) the worst crime commited in Europe since the Nazis,but the worst crime ever in history of human kind ,by any standarts.
To make a colective killing of that kind of a whole town's male civilian population,not by bombing them,not by machinegun them or any form of collective quick and efective way of killing them,but tie them up,gather them and kill them one by one in their thousends is unimaginable horror.And then dumping their remains in mass graves.
The mass rapes,often using rifles to rape women in front of their relatives,such as rapes of grandmothers and underaged women, and their brutality have no historical precedent in any known conflict.
There is no if's and no but's.It was pure catastrophe of biblical proportions,something that bring to tears every person that has come across the facts that depict the brutality that has taken place in Bosnia under Karadzic and Mladic executions of his orders.
Of course that Serbians suffered in this war aswell,but they did not suffer Concentration camps of the worst kind,there was no collective massacre carried out on any Serbian population,there was no collective rape of Serbian women etc etc.
The other war criminals in the balcans have done crimes that can not even be compared to the crimes comited by the Miloshevi'c war machine.
1----In Bosnia the muslims used to be secularist,modern and no different from other european cultures,it was excactly the massacres commited upon them simply for the fact that they were muslims that radicalised them,and the fact that no one in Europe was arming them when their civilian population was being threatened with extermination,that they turned for help wherever they could find it,such as to the oportunistic Mojahedin.
2----------Croatians also were unarmed when the Serbian army carried out mass killings of civilian populations,and they to turned to extremism only after crimes were commited against them,and they found channels through wich to arm themselves,mainly from Germany and Austria.
3--------------Kosovans have not destroyed or burned Catholic churches or Christian churches of other groops exept Serbian churches for the only reason that the churches were the main pretex used by Serbs to claim Kosovo,by saing that they have their churches in Kosovo,thats why Kosovo belongs to Serbia,without regard to the fact that 90% of the population is not Serbian. Lets not forget the fact that 10 % of Albanians in Kosovo are christians themselves.
Serbia has lately,specially after september 2001 used the christian drama to gain suport in the west.Is pathetic.
Even more pathetic has been the European media coverage when it comes to this particular conflict.
Nothing positive,civilised has to be reported as coming from Albanians,while everything coming out of Serbia has to be Beautifull,positive and civilised,despite the fact that victims has not yet got an apology,and that there is not even an self-reflection on the part of Serbia,who continues to live in a state of denial.
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mcdv-1975
What are you talking about?
During the Kosovo's conflict i had in my own house 7 Kosovan girl refugees.2 of them were sisters which their father managed to get out of their country,their other 2 sisters were not so lucky,they fell to the hands of the Serbian army.(luckily today they are alive,even thou they wish they were not).
Their father a completely broken man went to Albania to buy guns and go back to his village for revenge on people who did this to him.
To people like you it seams all a game,a made up story by the media,everything that is anti-american is fine by you people,and it seams facts or witneses dont mean much for your truth.
You saing that concentration camps in Bosnia did not exist,so what about Karadzic himself saing that its ok to put Muslim Bosnians there because they are orientals,who can live on top of each other.No problem?
And what about Karadzic saing that if Bosnia declares independence he will exterminate their race?
And what about Miloshevic saing that the Albanians should not ask the international community for help otherwise not a single Albanian would remain in Kosovo?
I dont understand were do find the enrgy to deny such horrific crimes,that should be condemed by any sane normal human being.
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#18. You make the usual laughable argument seen on HYS that because one person gets away with murder all should get away with murder. You can't see one page on HYS where some idiot doesn't say Saddam shouldn't have been tried unless Bush was in the dock too.
I actually agree with you about the Nuremberg trials (and to a large extent so did people like Churchill, Nimitz etc who helped the defence). However the fact that the soviets committed genocide too doesn't mean the nazi's were somehow innocent! Those that hung at Nuremberg damn well deserved it and the fact that some Russians should have been dangling next to them doesn't make the nazi's less guilty.
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#20 "Srebrenica massacre is not only (as media normaly says it is ) the worst crime commited in Europe since the Nazis,but the worst crime ever in history of human kind ,by any standarts."
No it wasn't. It was horrific, but no worse than dozens of similar crimes commited by the nazis (Oradour, Lidice, etc). Look up Babi yar online: 100,000 Jews were shot at close range and the bodies thrown in the gorge.... Himmler then complained that more than 100,000 rounds of ammo had been used and that his murder squads should be more efficient.
"The mass rapes,often using rifles to rape women in front of their relatives,such as rapes of grandmothers and underaged women, and their brutality have no historical precedent in any known conflict."
Sadly isn't true either. Rape has always been used in wars- start reading about French actions in Spain in 1809 onwards, the Japanese in China 1933 onwards, and every genocidal war in Africa up to 2008. Even British troops aren't innocent of it.
What happened in the Balkans was 'war as usual'.. the only unusual aspect of it was that it happened on our doorstep.
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in supplement to my last comment regarding rape in war: when the Russians (who it should be pointed out support the Serbs rather vocally) took Berlin there were 2 million REPORTED rapes in the first year alone...god alone knows how many actually happened. Even russian and ukranian women liberated from labour camps were routinely raped by soviet troops.
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I do not understand this hype around Karadzic. I guess, it is easier to simplify everything and place the blame to few individuals only.
The dissolution of Yugoslavia was not a simple process. Everybody wanted to live alone, separated from the others. Everyones wishes were granted, but only the Serbian wish denied. They were they only one forced to live in unwanted Croatia (while Croats were allowed to separate from the rests), forced to live with others in Bosnia (again, Bosnia despite ethnic problems was allowed to separate) and now again, forced to live with the Albanians in Kosovo (while again, Albanians were allowed despite many objections to separate).
It is normal that Karadzic advocated ethnic separation, just like everyone else. And that was the opinion of almost all the Serbs as it was the opinion of all the Croats, Slovenes, Macedonians etc. The problem was the violence, but , given the fact that the history in the area has been violent ever since, especially in the WWII where violence was never properly addressed in post war Yugoslavia , hence making it at least in Serbian consciousness part of their ever suffering history, this is nothing surprising.
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@Menedemus, Named-Erion e.a.
I'm not making that argument at all. I'm just saying that those who committed genocide themselves (Soviet Russia, European powers, USA as a continuation of European campaigns against natives) should not be condemning others for doing the same thing. Therefore, Nazi criminals should have been tried by post war German courts. And Hirohito should have been tried as well. And why did the socalled international community (Britian, France, USA) decide NOT to put Japan on trial for its extensive use of biological weapons against Chinese towns?
I'm not buying your anti Serbian propagande because I know the history of the region. As long as plenty of Croats still think warmly of the Ustase and the Kosovor/Bosnian muslims still haven't apologized for participating in WW II etnic cleansing of Serbs I shall continue to see this as
Despicable as Karadzic and Mladic may have been, a case can be made that they at least partially did not act but react to crimes committed against
I welcome the tribunal because it hopefully will finally also reveal the dirty role played by the EEC (who enabled Milosevic by promising him support to Yugoslavia), the UN and the US who basically just picked a side to support and played out (with media help) a very one sided propaganda (ie those evil Serbians vs those nice innocent muslims). Again, I refer to history, particularly WW II.
And to think that the Bosnians even tried to name an airport after war criminal Izetbegovic. At least the international community had the common decency to put a stop to that. I mean, Germany doesn't have an Heinrich Himmler airfield now does it.
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The capture of Mr Karadzic however surprising and unexpected at this moment is a watershed event in the Balkans. Myriad explanations will be put forward by those that know and those that do not know. Most of them will be misguided or misguiding but ultimately it does not matter. The dead ones from the conflict and that includes all nationalities and all of them in thousands cannot be brought back to life.
The horrors of war that happened will haunt for many centuries to come and everything must be done that it does not happen again. It should be a lesson to the whole of Europe and to the whole of the World. It takes very little to turn to atrocities that can escalate monstrously. Human beings are imperfect to that extend that no one is immune to it and this should not be forgotten.
For this reason alone we should stop attributing the guilt to the whole nation (or nations) and try to forge a new path of peace and coexistence. Yes it is good that someone accused of war crimes should be brought to justice and one hopes that a just trial will be held. It is not good that all signals from the Tribunal are that it is very one sided and partial. It has one standard for Serbians and other for the rest and this is highly unfortunate.
Reading the comments it is sad to see that so many fall prey to media and other propaganda and would remain against what seems to be the only way forward. If wisdom prevailed after the death of Tito both the EU and the old Yugoslavia would have done far better if the latter joined the Europe without the bloodshed and economic destruction that ensued. For whatever reason that did not happen but the mistake should not be repeated.
The fact is that the majority of Serbia’s population wishes to join the EU and this should be encouraged and helped by all available means. The process will be difficult as there are many important politicians who are still very anti Serb. Those who fear for a few taxpayers ‘Euros’ let them be at rest. It cost far more to mend the ravages of conflicts than to ‘carrot’ an entry into EU. As far as Russia’s support for Serbia and Serbia’s support for Russia is concerned I cannot see any harm for Europe. It is better to have Serbia in and hope that will become a bridge of a sort and make a positive contribution in Euro-Russian relations.
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#27. Tito died in 1980. At that time the cold war was at its height with NATO and the Soviet Union fighting a virtual proxy war in Afghanistan. The idea of admitting a communist nation to the EU would have been unthinkable, even if Yugoslavia had proven itself non-Soviet.
This isn't today when half the old warsaw pact are dynamic economies and part of the EU. In 1980 it was still the EEC and made up solely of "old europe".
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Agora9 @ 27
"Those who fear for a few taxpayers ?Euros? let them be at rest. It cost far more to mend the ravages of conflicts than to ?carrot? an entry into EU."
Thank you. I live in one of the few net contributing countries within the EU and I am really pleased that I can rest easy that my country will be spending my tax so efficiently by giving a lot of it to the EU who will pass it out so efficiently in turn.
I just love the way the EU is expanding and inviting more and more net recipient countries from the former Soviet sphere of influence to enjoy the benefits of my tax burden.
Still, I suppose when the United Kingdom has been screwed into the ground and there's no more money left in the UK piggy-bank, that will be when the big socialist experiment will fall over.
Thanks for reassuring me that it is something I should not worry about!
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@29 Menedemus
Do you also love the way how politicians (through the EU) are slowly and semi-covertly abolishing parliamentary democracy by taking powers away from directly elected national parliaments and handing them over to unelected Commission (effectively: the politburo) and Council? The existance of the European Council/Council of Ministers enables government ministers to bypass their national parliaments completely. Politburo/Commission and Council together enjoy what amount to legislative AND executive powers (violation of separation of powers). Very convenient for a government minister who cannot get a bill passed through parliament, just go through Brussels and you can sideline parliaments altogether.
And that is why the EU is fundamentally and thorougly undemocratic. Peoples can no longer vote for politicians who make the real decisions and who make the laws. That direct link between vote and influence has been cut. Also notable: the EU's frantic activity denying us as many referendums as they could. Now with Ireland, they try to keep up the pretence that only Ireland was against it when with referendums there would easily have been 9-10 no's. When will they finally realize that the peoples do not favor more political integration? They shall however reap what they sow.
Countries outside the EU only want to join because they expect others to pay for their progress and because their politicians fancy the huge gravy train that is Brussels.
Prosperity and peace do not require the existance of the EU. In fact, most of us would be better off without the EU (well, except politicians, Brussels bureaucrats and their hangers on).
@agora9
The EEC tried to keep Yugoslavia together. Its most notable attempt was when EEC bureaucrats and representatives travelled to Belgrade in 1992 to promise president Milosevic (name ring a bell?) help in keeping Yugoslavia together. One has to note that this happened weeks AFTER Slovenia and Croatia had announced their intention to secede. Milosevic must surely have thought he had international support to keep Yugoslavia together. Funny that. All attempts by Milosevic to have those officials testify were denied by the court (for obvious reasons). And that is why I believe the court was secretly happy Milosevic died, it could have been a huge embarrassment.
Another potential embarassment will be Richard Holbrooke's deal made with Karadzic at the time. The trial should provide much entertainment and I would not at all be surprised if Karadzic was not convicted of anything before his death. Too many people have too much to lose. Here is the BBC story on this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7062288.stm
The EEC, the UN, the USA have their hands all over this. That's why I call the ICTY a farce.
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In these discussions you are clearly ingnoring one thing. B. Tadic won elections on the platform: if EU conditions Serbian entry into the club with giving up its souvereignity in Kosovo, then Serbia won't be in EU. I, and most Serbs, support this position.
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The international community has all the right to acuse War criminals for their crimes.
What their countries have done in the past should not be a barrier for justice today.
The truth is that the British M.O.D even respects human rights of prisoners of war,it even compesates them,as we have often seen,so do the Americans.They have not intentionaly killed civilians and have expressed their regret at loss of civilian life any time it has happened.And the public opinion here is under no ilussion about the wars their countrys go to.They even try and imprison their soldiers who have commited crimes,even though in a war zone.
One just cant compare Bush and Blair to a crazy man who has targeted towns and civilian populations with the only reason of killing them.A genocidel maniac.
Such comparissions are ridicolous.They sound ok only to the ears of the victims of the Chomsky propaganda.
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jaksap @ #31
This website link is quite interesting; it seems to show that Kosovo already has independence and that it already has formal recognition from a lot of countries around the world.
http://www.kosovothanksyou.com/
I can see that Serbia is going to have to give up sovereignty over an independent Kosovo sooner or later.
But from what you are saying, even if the EU asks you to accept Kosovo as an independent state, Serbia will decline to accept the inevitable.
So I guess Serbia won't be joining the EU any time soon.
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Mark Mardell,
the spotlight on the tribunal, will be a lot brigther, when karadzic arrives in the hague...
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