Lisbon: A hard sell
Turnout, they told me, was crucial. Above 50% and it is a Yes. Under 40% and it's a No. Frankly I am suspicious about this analysis, but both camps tell me about 45% of Ireland's voters went to the polls. Right in the middle of knife-edge territory. 
But in Ireland, the don't knows have it. I don't mean those who didn't bother to vote.
On talking to people at polling stations the overwhelming impression that comes through is that voters feel they don't understand the Lisbon Treaty. On the whole they agree with Ireland's Eurovision star Dustin the Turkey, who is quoted in the Irish Sun as calling the treaty "gobbledegook" (Geddit?).
At one place a teacher told me she wasn't sure how she was going to vote when she walked into the polling station. 
She only decided to vote Yes as her pen hovered above the ballot paper.
At a more working-class area of Dublin the polling station staff are bored in the early evening, doing a quiz in the newspaper and chatting on their phones. Hardly anyone has been in. Turnout has been around 30% here, which is higher than the national average at this time, which is 20%. Just then a bit of a rush starts. I ask a couple of young women what they make of the treaty. "I don't know what it's all about." And her friend? "Not a clue." So how did she vote? "No. I'm not going to vote for something I don't understand."
An elderly couple tell me they don't know what it is all about, either. "But we voted Yes. Did we do the right thing?"
A couple in their thirties with three kids in tow says the Yes campaign has done a bad job of explaining the treaty. "No-one understands it." So they will be voting No.
If it turns out Ireland said No it could be because of the advice from Dustin the Turkey. But I think it will be because of the huge difficulty of finding a simple way to sell a complex legal document.
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
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I'm still riled that the swindlers have denied me my UK vote. If the Irish vote no It would serve our (so called) representatives right.
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The Irish Times is reporting that one major betting shop chain is paying out early to those who bet on a Yes victory.
I feel that despite the treaty being very dull, it is a bit of a poor excuse to say 'It wasn't explained properly'. So many newspapers and other sources gave detailed descriptions of the issues. Many people simply couldn't be bothered to do their homework.
If the No wins, I would love to see the difficulties that right wing UK papers would have in praising Sinn Fein for 'saving us'.
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if we dont get this vote europe will be stuck in a rut for even longer, the current paperwork/treaties etc are only workable for a 15 nation union, we are now a 27 nation union. By voting no the logistic power will not be in place to cope with the newer countries and europe will stay at he slow crawl it has been stuck in for the last 4-5 years.
'royal grounded'
to be honest i dont think they swindled our vote, we pay for them to make decisions, if they make the decision not to let us vote on the referendum thats their choice, besides the Leaders of Europe know the immense good that the Union has done for the states of Europe and they dont want to let the money that flows in from Europe to stop just because Mr. SUN Reader doesnt like the polish migration...
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if this goes thru, jsut a few more steps til the European Union will be a fully functioning superpower, with a gdp £4 Trillion above the USA, a more stable currency (Euro), population double the U.S.
Now all we need is a EU military. XD
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If it doesn't pass, Bernard Kouchner will have to shoulder a lot of the blame. I voted Yes, but his condescending and downright insulting remarks almost made me vote No on principal.
Irish people tend to react very badly to bullying (or should I say "very well"?).
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Your Irish experience has to be the real reason why it is pointless for something like this to be put to a public vote, and therefore an argument for the existence of a parliamentary democracy.
A vote in the UK would just turn into a mud slinging match between pundits on whether the EU should exists and "they want straight bananas you know" and all the rest of the rubbish that comes out on both sides of the debate.
It would never be about "is this structure right for the managing of Europe."
At the end of the day, for those that actually can be bothered to read the whole thing, that is what it is basically about.
So, does anyone know? Is this good management policy or not?
Sounds like many Irish voters are far more honest than the politicians, media and self appointed know-it-alls from the general public and have admitted that they don't know!
Good for them! And good for you - normally the media never report what the majority actually think.
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"But I think it will be because of the huge difficulty of finding a simple way to sell a complex legal document."
But Mark, that is the point - it is made very deliberately a 'complex legal document' - it is quite by design difficult to sell.
If they said, clearly and concisely EXACTLY what the treaty would do, and what effect it would have on national sovereignty, then NO ONE would vote for it !
At least this way they can fool some of the people, some of the time. On those occasions when they don't, they just ask them to vote again until they get the right answer.
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Complex legal documents are agreed all the time between fully informed parties (and not by legal experts either). The trick is to agree each part separately. I've no principled objection to unity or even Federalism but the terms that our rulers have set are not to my liking.
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To be fair, I don't think the document was deliberately made obtuse. I think it's just what happens when you get thrity or forty policy wonks trying to find wording that satisfies everyone.
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hmm irish will probally vote yes even if i cant stand the EU , if the was a vote in the UK it would be a one horse race with the sceptic winning by 100 miles
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The Senior Citizens Party believes that the European Commission has deliberately tried to deceive the people by changing the European Constitution, which was a user-friendly, relatively easy to understand document, by rewriting it in complex legalese which no ordinary person can understand and calling it a treaty instead of a constitution. All the independent experts agree that it is essentially the same.
Such hypocrisy is disgraceful and it is equally disgraceful that all three parties who promised a referendum in the election manifestos of 2005 have now reneged on this. In a genuine democracy power must be vested in the people and not in unelected bureaucrats. Now everyone who believes in democracy has to rely on the 3 million Irish people to defend our democratic rights, and those of the other 497 million people who are denied a referendum, say No to the Lisbon Treaty. We sincerely hope they will.
Grahame Leon-Smith, Senior Citizens Party
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The whole point of theis disgusting "Treaty" is that has been designed from birth to only being able to be understood by lawyers and not the proles.
If the EU really wants to set out it's stall and ensure a yes vote then it should be laid out in a clear and consise way that can be put into bullet points on ONE piece of A4 paper so everybody can understand it and know what they are voting for.
Why anybody would sign a contract without reading it through baffles me.
Would you buy a house, car or sign up to a loan without knowing all the details?
No you wouldn't and that is why I hope the Irish vote No so that the EU have to go back to the drawing board and make a case directly to the people and not the political elite, as it is the people that are in charge and ultimately control the ruling classes, not the politician who are there to serve the people after all.
Sadly this is an alien concept to Brussels as doing an honest days work and not fiddling expenses.
Vote NO
It is the only way forward for the EU
A yes vote ensures it stays exactly the way it is and corrupt to the very core.
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"At one place a teacher told me she wasn't sure how she was going to vote when she walked into the polling station.
She only decided to vote Yes as her pen hovered above the ballot paper."
"An elderly couple tell me they don't know what it is all about, either. "But we voted Yes. Did we do the right thing?""
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Ugh, what the heck. The article makes it sound like the vote is going to be determined by blind voting.
"No. I'm not going to vote for something I don't understand."
That's the sort of attitude a good participant has when they don't know enough. To be honest if I was Irish I'd probably go vote No just to cancel out one of the aforementioned thoughtless loons.
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Just directed at comment 2
Sinn Fein are not exactly popular in the Republic and so are not going to make that much of a difference in campaigning although they are campaigning against it the treaty.
To this end the right wing press are not going to have to thank Sinn Fein but the voters of Eire.
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Yes, well; at least it spurred me to read a few articles on Wikipedia to find out something about the EU. Maybe it doesn't matter whether the Treaty is ratified or not. There seem to be big things afoot in this neck of the woods altogether. Maybe I should run for president? Or maybe not.
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Hardly matter anyway - did the Eu parliament not vote recently to ignore the Irish referendum result?
Some democracy.
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I am listening to RTE radio reports from around the country. The early tallies say its a No
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"Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly ...."
- V.Giscard D'Estaing, 14 June 2007
An ambiguous document was presented to us which was previously rejected by two member states repackaged with a new name and with 10/250 articles amended. I gave this vote more thought than any other referendum I have participated in. I slept with a clear conscience last night.
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I am reminded of the mother of a friend of mine who voted for a politician "because he has nice teeth"
It is beholden upon the elected to explain fully the implications of a vote to the electorate.
But I think something like this treaty is far beyond that possibility.
Contrary to what poster Number 8 says, the treaty is in perfectly understandable English - it is complex because of the complexity of the subject, not because it is try to be obtuse.
I have had no trouble understanding it - I have had trouble trying to remember it!
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The fact of the matter is that any legal document, no matter how complex can be summarised in 3 or 4 bullet points that any Joe Schmoe can digest. The fact is that journalists won't do it - they're paid by the word and would make the publication look 'less intelligent' as most people that read papers are a lot more gullible than they realise. Also from knowing a few of them most journalists know very little about their subject matter.
"But Mark, that is the point - it is made very deliberately a 'complex legal document' - it is quite by design difficult to sell." - lordBeddGelert have you ever actually done any legal work?
Even in what seem the simplest of legal situations, you end up with complex structures, particularly when you need to cover all possible events precisely. In this case we're talking about all issues of a 25+ nation EU! Please wake up and get a life -keep you're tree-hugging conspiracy theories to you and you're other sad friends and only come back when you have had real experience of what the EU is about.
The EU gives other countries like Poland/Czech Republic the opportunity to reap the rewards that Ireland has gained from subsidisation and economic stability. Saying 'No' to these treaties is a statement of greed, not a heroic anti-establishment stance. This is ironic considering the socialist views of those opposed to this and the Nice Treaty (which gave the EU the right to let Eastern Europe take a share of the wealth).
The EU also curbs wonks from making crazy legal practices and getting away with 'oh, that's just how we do things here' and claiming it to be 'local custom'. Yes the pedantic nature of the legislation get on my nerves at times, but nobody can get away with laws that are suspect on human rights or the environment and certainly not to the extent that they would have done without the EU. Not that they've stopped global warming from happening, but the EU is a damn sight more proactive and better than the US at curbing its effects.
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Given what determined, arrogant, dishonest "EU"-lovers have done to the UK, I would not put it past them to fiddle the vote. They despise democracy.
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Just on comment 2, one of the reasons i voted yes is because Sinn Fein were saying no, and i'm not the only one who factored that into their decision, not by a long shot.
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What's this need to understand? Does anyone understand (or have they even read) the Irish constitution? Who understands UK financial regulations? In the same way you turn to an doctor to explain why an operation is necessary, you vote for MPs to explain to you complicated legal texts which will your country forward. Almost all the parties in Ireland were in favour of a "yes". So would the "no" vote be a vote against Europe or a sign of the degree of trust the Irish have in their MPs?
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"If the No wins, I would love to see the difficulties that right wing UK papers would have in praising Sinn Fein for 'saving us'."
It has nothing to do with Sinn Fein 'saving' anybody, it was as much a hindrance as a benefit to the no campaign.
"...one of the reasons i voted yes is because Sinn Fein were saying no..."
What if they said: "...don't jump!"?
Just because you vote the same way as Sinn Fein on one issue, doesn't mean you're a member of their group; nor does it make you one of their supporters.
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This is a typical left wing BBC article. Of course the voters could not possibly have known their own mind - they must be stupid and ignorant! That is why they voted against the treaty.
Please stop being so patronising and disrespectful to the public - its exactly that kind of attitude that led to the BBC making up competition results.
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I'm sorry to say that I take offence at Mark Mardell's report from Dublin this evening. He stated that "most just couldn't make head nor tail of the (Lisbon Treaty) document". Just two Irish people, both of whom professed ignorance, were shown. There was no one to balance Mr. Mardell's supposition, one which is very dismissive of the Irish electorate. I agree that the terms of the Treaty weren't easily understood, but many, many people made the effort to acquaint themselves with it and the relatively good turnout could indeed suggest that people feel passionate about it. He also mentioned that the topics of "abortion, defence and taxation" had been rallying points for the NO campaign. Since the NO vote was strongest in working areas, one would argue that economic and social issues were foremost in the minds of the NO voters. I would like to add that by mentioning the abortion issue first, Mr Mardell has neatly fallen in with the stereotype that all Irish people are vehemently anti-abortion or even feel strongly about it - not the best piece of journalism I've encountered. (Incidentally, in my constituency, where the vote was 61% against, I didn't come across one suggestion by the NO campaign that the abortion issue was a factor in the Lisbon Treaty). Many Irish people do indeed feel that defence - or rather a perceived threat to their neutrality - was one of the big issues.
I am very disappointed by this report, and upon reading Mr Mardell's blog, am further irritated by the blase disrespect shown to the Irish electorate, as a nation of "don't knows". Perhaps he could try a little harder to find those people who did get engaged with the process and make fewer generalisations.
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"But in Ireland, the don't knows have it. I don't mean those who didn't bother to vote."
This article is the most ridiculus piece of journalism i've ever read on the the Irish referendum and the Lisbon Treaty.
You know, I would have loved to know which polling station you were at, and even more so, I'd love to know how exactly you made your choice on who to report on because for me, as a person who worked in a Cork South polling station, I found that the percentage of "Don't Knows" were very minimal. We were very very busy all day and the ballots were flooded with people. A high majority were quick to make their decision and were firm in their choice. Sorry Mr Mardell that you had to miss where the real journalism could have taken place.
All in all, you've summed up the Irish Electorate for the world to see as a bunch of dazed and foolish voters. You have painted a picture that describes the fate of the EU as being determined by the "don't know" side. Most on the island did their homework. And they have spoken democratically against a Treaty that violates the very idea of democracy. A high turnout proves that our voice is worth listening to, just like France and Netherlands in 2005.
Ireland, as a Pro-European country, have rejected a treaty that dismisses our constitution, muffles our voice and fails to consider our identity and soveignity. I believe in a united Europe, and i agree to alot of what the Lisbon Treaty had to offer.
But all these little "complex" things that people have been humming and hawing about are not as innocent as you might think. The "good" does in no way outweigh the "bad". There's alot of so-called "gobbledeegook" that makes you question the strength of democracy, and indeed the future of the EU.
I hope we're not asked to vote again. We are highly grateful to the EU and asking us to vote again will just make us give-in to the bullying. We'd probably vote yes a second time round but only due to people not wanting to be excluded from the EU. To me, that's not democracy. I thought the Veto was there for a reason.
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We keep being told (and questionnaires and polls are worded carefully for this very reason) that the people voted NO because they didn't understand what they were voting for...
But infact...
People abstained instead of voting yes because they couldn't work out what they were saying yes for.
People who voted no generally had a good idea why and for diverse reasons...
Maybe that is the point in hand. The EU takes away their power of diversity in opinion.
An unelected Commission means there is only ONE view point:
THE VIEW POINT OF THE COMMISSION.
Celebrate our diversity.
Beware the Minuscule Minority
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It was a hard sell...But most people in the media, Brussels and Dublin already knew that when it went to the electoral.
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@31 dennisjunior1
of course it was a hard sell. The Lisbon Treaty is essentially this question: do you want to give up parliamentary democracy and instead have a system where a mutually appointed unelected elite makes your laws for you, whilst all the time pretending it is democratic?
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I already knew it was going to be a hard sell; because of many reasons....
--Dennis Junior--
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