A high price for Serbia's master of spin
Was Serbian President Boris Tadic a master of spin on election night, or just genuinely excited?
He announced, with around 50% of the votes counted, that his pro-European coalition had won the election, and that it was a victory for those who wanted to see Serbia in the European Union.
Spin is a much misused word, but it's classically seizing an event and making sure your interpretation of it is the only interpretation in town.
From Australia to Turkey the victory was front page news, all the better for being unexpected.
Stunning victory
Some Western diplomats feel that, if this was an example of Mr Tadic showing bold leadership, strategic vision and a bit of political know-how, it was about time. But they tend to think he just got carried away.
It was indeed a stunning and unexpected victory for the Coalition for a European Serbia.
They are ten percent ahead of their nearest rivals, the Radicals.
They have increased their votes and the parties which wanted to put a halt to talks with the EU have not.
But, by my reckoning, with nearly all the votes counted, 44% voted for pro-European parties and 48% for the anti's (the missing eight percent went to national minority parties and I am not sure what they think).
Not quite as clear cut as Mr Tadic suggested.
More importantly he will have an uphill struggle forming a government and can't do it without making some unlikely friends.
Socialist key
The Socialists, the party which was led by dictator Slobodan Milosevic, are once again the key to governing Serbia. Their 20 MPs will make or break any coalition.
At first sight it is much more logical that they would form a government with the Radicals and Kostunica's Serbian Democrats.
The Socialists are passionate about Kosovo staying part of Serbia, suspicious of the European Union, look favourably on Russia and are bitterly opposed to the pursuit of war criminals.
The Radicals agree warmly on all these points.
But slight and strategy may dictate otherwise.
High price
The Socialists were miffed that the Radicals wouldn't do a deal before the election.
And the obvious meeting of minds carries the danger that the Socialists would get lost from electoral view without a distinct profile of their own.
But their price may be too high for Tadic. It is not only their views on Europe and Kosovo and war crimes.
They will also refuse to work with some of the existing and potential coalition parties. They won't talk to the Liberal Democrats, for instance.
They would be bound to clash with G17, which wants more and quicker privatisation.
But insiders say there are real advantages for the Socialists in going into a pro-European government.
They would look distinctive and remove the tarnish of the past.
By associating themselves with a new Serbia they would create a new image for their own party.
They would, in a sense, be the voice of the opposition within the government.
Some diplomats think this is definitely what they want, but there will be a few weeks of thumb-sucking while they look as if they are considering all the options.
Mr Tadic's spin will probably turn out to be right - this was a victory - and his alliance will form a government.
But the price demanded by the Socialists may make it feel a little hollow.
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I'm aware that there are historical reasons that Serbia wants to keep hold of Kosovo, but looking at the current state of affairs, the province is more of a liability than an asset and the Serbs are better off without it. The place is a basket case and its most famous export is criminals. Even the Albanians in Albania don't want anything to do with it.
Hopefully the new government will recognise this, and Serbia will soon be part of the EU.
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So they should just abandon it to be run by corrupt leaders and not try to improve the situation there in any way? Just forget about and write the idea of improving the lives of law abiding people there of every ethnicity off as a lost cause?
Nice.
There's also the small matter of the hundred or thousand or so serbs in kosovo. If you look at the current state of affairs you'll find that they're discriminated against, live in ghettos and find it hard to move around from one part of kosovo to the other due to restrictions. What should they do, just leave them, a small, resented minority, to get on with it and risk creating a very dangerous situation?
Theyve got every right to try and keep Kosovo as part of Serbia by diplomatic methods. They've so far been very dignified and I hope this continues because I don't think things like this can ever be solved by military force.
If a decision on Kosovo's status had been postponed until all Western Balkans countries were in the EU (which unfortunately looks unlikely to happen) this whole sorry affair could have been avoided and an outcome could have been reached which would have been satisfactory to all sides (no border controls between serbia(kosovo)/albania, investments between all western balkans countries, cooperation on issues which affect all of them, a better economy for all these countries). Instead a solution has been imposed - "supervised" independence, removing belgrade's control but giving the kosovo politicians only symbolic power - foreign diplomats can still strike down pretty much anything they don't like - which actually benefits nobody and will simply cause trouble.
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I agree that the situation has been handled badly, but it's a bit late for Serbia to do much about it now. It needs to move on. Anyway, we've seen that the majority in Kosovo are hostile to Serbia. It would be like the UK trying to hold on to a 90% Catholic Northern Ireland, it's just not going to work. Anyway, it's questionable whether it's desirable to hold onto a 50% Catholic Northern Ireland but that's another issue.
Another advantage to the current situation is that it gives the enormous number of international do-gooders in Kosovo a more comfortable alternative to a (probably more productive) posting in the Sudan or Bangladesh:)
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Hey :) Thanks for replying. You're right - there are other issues facing Serbia at the moment like the economy and health care like there are in all countries and they should be an absolute priority. I'd imagine a lot of people there would be quite sick of hearing politicians go on about Kosovo, the EU, and nothing else, just like a lot of people are sick of hearing politicians go on about the EU here as well and terrorism. And getting the Kosovo politicians to back down would be a fruitless task. And they need to keep up relations with Albania and other neighbouring countries which have recognised Kosovo otherwise that will do more harm than good.
But they can't just be expected to sit back and take this, and abandon people who want to live under Serbian sovereignty and not an entity they consider illegitimate, so I think they should continue to fight it internationally or try and reopen negotiations for a solution which would be acceptable to everyone, serbs and albanians.
Comparisons with northern Ireland would be valid if we're not talking about NI today but NI in the 1920s, just after the civil war, or NI up until the late seventies or early eighties. Most Protestants in Northern Ireland would have very, very little to fear from a united Ireland now, despite a few issues with discrimination and despite a few largely marginalised, people on both sides saying otherwise. Even Ian Paisley was still ready to work with Sinn Fein in the government.
So there would be no problem IMO in reuniting Northern Ireland with Ireland. The situation in Kosovo is very different - terrible atrocities have been committed on both sides in very recent memory and cases continue to come to light - the thousands of missing Albanians and the continuing discovery of mass graves, and the recent horrific discovery of Serbs allegedly being sent over the border to Albania to be killed and their organs taken out and sold. People aren't going to forget about these things in a hurry if their lives were personally affected by it.
There's going to be a lot of anger and resentment on BOTH sides. the fact is that kosovo is not recognised by most countries as a proper country, unstable, and largely dependent on the West, as well as having an extremely dodgy basis in international law, which has the potential to create a "siege mentality" (and already has with some people). Added to the fact that there is a group of people living there who mostly don't believe the state has the right to exist, are isolated, poor and are hated by much of the population due to the extremely bloody civil war and largely lead separate lives, and you get the potential for things becoming very nasty. For things to work over there there needs to be some form of compromise.
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Mark, you got some things wrong. Socialist's (SPS) position on Kosovo and EU is not noticeably different than Tadic's position, and Tadic himself confirmed that. By the way, socialist's minor coalition partner, that enabled them to do well in elections, is quite close to Tadic. That's why Radicals-DSS-Socialist coalition cannot work, i.e. without this minor party's support.
It makes sense in another way: Socialists are leftist, and Tadic is centre-left. They would be like a socialdemocrat coalition somewhere in Europe. DSS and Radicals are conservatives.
I don't think that war crime fugitives issue would hinder a government like this. It is pretty much down to a single person (Mladic) who is not very close to SPS.
LDP, on the other hand, would be a lot more difficult coalition partner (if they had enough MPs for coalition, and they don't). Its leader has a personal conflict with Tadic, and its policy on Kosovo is contrary to ALL other parties in Serbia.
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Long-winded comments never attracted me. Someone, sometime- like me and now- has to come here and put the fut down, brothers.
Serbia, long live- you long wind, and your song never wins.
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Why is the EU so desperate to annex lands? Even when clearly people are not eager to join? Wouldn't it just be simpler to extend EU citizenship to those that actually want it from the targeted countries? Why the rush to escalate confrontations at a time when the world faces profound crises requiring collaborative approaches, rather than hostility?
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Why is the West suddenly so worried about
Serbia, whose dilemmas were created by the West anyway? Personally, if I were Serb I would want nothing to do with those that bombed me.
I always find it funny when ethnicities that lived together in former Yugoslavia say:
"we will separate and have our own state, but we will respect minorities as long as WE are the majority"(like in Bosnia and Kossovo).
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@jon_toronto
In a nutshell, I agree. Serbia should not govern Kosovo. However, awarding such Kosovo with outright independence is a grave mistake. Serbia was willing to give Kosovo 95% of independence, giving it immediately more than it will have for years to come (membership in international organizations but the UN, national sport teams through a membership at the IOC and such). It was a face-saving offer by which Serbia's outside borders.
This way, we have a precedent by all means - one side, which is by no means innocent, gets awarded, while another, a UN member state, gets unilaterally punished. It's a mockery of the international law and an example of American foreign policy madness.
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OK, NATO bombed Serbia against the international law; Most of the 'western' countries have recognised The Republic of Kosovo formed against the international law... Who made that law? Serbia? I don't think so!
I'm for Tadic.. but it seems that democracy is becoming 'democratic autocracy'! If it weren't sad, it would be funny, as the politicians involved worldwide...
And, as for the EU.. well, Serbia has been a generator of major precedents from the WWI to nowadays, and I like to think that it's also a matter of political prestige to have it in the club.. You know, my village in Serbia is full of field workers from the newest EU member states during the season!!!
Miki
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The reason why the government collapsed in the first place is twofold: Dinkic's (G17) abysmal economic record and the nuances of the SAA agreement with the EU. Before the election, Tadic (DS) had ample opportunity to iron out the issues with Kostunica (DSS-NS) regarding the SAA and bring the Socialists on board, with their superior economic program, thereby replacing Dinkic. Not a perfect coalition by any means but a functional one. What has Tadic done instead ? He has kept Dinkic, he has courted the Far Right extremist group of Nenad Canak and even brought the (frankly bonkers) Vuk Draskovic and his SPO into the fray. Any political commentator entertaining the thought of the Socialists joining that rabble is not being serious. The Center Left Coalition of DSS-NS/SRS/Socialists seems by far the most logical option for Serb citizens and the more democratic one, as their coalition has significantly more votes than Tadic's ZEC coalition. EU beaurocrats might find negotiations a bit more robust than was the case previously, with the DS-Yes-Men, but that is not a bad thing.
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Tadic does not use 'spin' in the sense understood in London, Brussels or Washington. Serbian politics is based upon direct lies fed through the media direct to the public. They all lie, it is expected, so the public is apathetic.
However, in the past 6 weeks, the lies emanating from Tadic and the DS faithful have been some of the most fanciful and, frankly, shameful lies of all. The notion of joining EU and 'keeping' Kosovo is preposterous; the sense of closing on the EU whilst ignoring the Mladic problem is shameful.
Generally, the Serbian daily media does not have the institutional capacity - or the integrity - to act as a check on these excesses. Thus the lies are disseminated and perpetuated.
For me, the disappointment is that the foreign media continues to give these misconceptions support and wider coverage. Is it through laziness in doing the research and analysis of the background; fundamental ignorance of the subject matter; or have you all simply been beguiled by the smooth talking Serbian politician?
Comparing CeSID independent monitoring results from yesterday to official RIK statistics of the January 2007 election...
The SRS (Radicals) remain the single largest party in parliament (78 seats) and seen a slight increase in public support - about 4,000 votes.
The LDP made minor gains given that their tally this time was almost identical to last year, but this time alone and not with LSV (Canak).
The SPS/PUPS/JS coalition (Dacic et al) lost about 40,000 from the individual returns last year.
The DSS/NS coalition (Kostunica-Ilic) saw the biggest fall of around 200,000.
And finally, the "European Serbia" coalition, a gain of about only 180,000 votes in total compared to the individual results previously. Moreover, the DS 'share' of this pie is about 1,000,000 votes and 66 seats projected.
In effect, a large chunk of less Kosovo-dogmatic DSS supporters jumped ship the the "European Serbia" coalition.
So, President Tadic, your DS is still only the second biggest in Serbia despite your protestations to the contrary. The G17 are unreliable partners: they have chose to ally with Kostunica and the DSS rather than yourself during the past 4 years. And Draskovic (SPO) is nothing but a self-serving opportunist interested only in securing some form of public life for himself and his wife. Remember, he used to be a vice-PM under Milosevic!
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To Garvin.
You must understand Serbian language if you know what Serbian media are saying? Or, You know what Your media says Serbian media are saying?
As a Serbian student studying in the EU for 2 years, as someone who understands several languages and someone who has worked for 4 years in NGO sector in Serbia promoting the EU, I must disagree on the question of the media in Serbia today.
And I must remind You that a lie said by Bush or Brown is far heavier than a lie from any Serbian politician.
The EU's double tongue is much more disastrous than the Serbian one!
Finally, I think that Radicals in Serbia are aware that they don't have the professional capacity to be in power in Serbia of today. They are comfortable sitting there as the opposition, complaining and taking money.
Don't worry!
Miki
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Milivoje,
Yes I understand Serbian. Yes I read Belgrade newspapers. Yes I even speak with Serbian politicians in their language - some don't speak English. No I am not a journalist myself.
However, I have a number of friends in the Belgrade press pack and I have had the same discussion with them that I outline above.
Generally, they are actually quite proud of the fact that they 'report' the political scene. They feel it is their 'duznost' (duty) to report verbatim what a politician says, rather than to analyse and place into background context the words.
So if Tadic says, 'it is better to fight for Kosovo from within EU than without' (my paraphrasing), the media prints it and people believe it as is. No attempt is made to qualify said words that Serbia cannot get into EU without first saying good-bye to Kosovo!
The Belgrade media has had great fun over the past two weeks 'reporting' word-for-word the spat between DSS and DS over the "lazni" SAA and the alleged 'accompanying document'. They also gleefully 'report' Tadic's words about it being a 'legal and binding document'. Almost no mention of the fact that the EU has made it crystal clear that implementation of the SAA will only be considered AFTER the EU Council declares Serbia to be "in full cooperation" with ICTY and AFTER individual EU member states ratify the document in their national parliaments. These two simple 'facts' have been depressingly absent from Belgrade print media and many ill-informed citizens remain convinced Serbia has made a great leap towards EU membership.
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And in the meantime, unnoticed to most, putinesque Russia, which has vehemently opposed an independence for Kosovo is doing its best to provoke a military conflict in Caucasus by staunchly supporting Abkhasian separatists trying to to take this province out of Georgia and make it a part of Russian Federation.
It would be quite funny actually, if it were not so pathetic.
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Compliments.
That's OK, but I don't see European media any better. Topics are different, but the concept remains pretty much the same.
Anyway, it is very difficult to analyse statements of Serbian politicians, when the statements of European politicians are opposed (ex. Belgian Minister of foreign affairs and Belgian Ministry of foreign affairs on SAA)... And then, what are we going to do if ex. Belgium ratifies SAA with Serbia without Kosovo, and Spain with Serbia with Kosovo?! Who is crazy?!
The other thing is that in Serbia you can't find a cosmetics article with written 'do not eat/drink' as you can find here. The same is with media. Why should I explain something to you if you are expected to know it already...
In the end, in Serbia governments don't fall because of poverty, as they have in other eastern countries - there from comes the luxury for political small-talk. People usually say: What were Romania and Bulgaria doing for all the years of sanctions to Serbia and the bombing of '99, when they are still poorer? I don't believe that people are impressed by the possibility to join the EU as much as by the fact that they could be finally treated equal and not blackmailed for visas and better working conditions...
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Pozdrav Milivoje,
I am a little confused.
You spent 4 years working in Serbia for an NGO actively promoting the EU ideal to Serbs.
Now you live in the EU and all you can see is faults, problems and 'lies'.
Could it be that you were, unwittingly, one of those actively promoting some of the political 'lies' abundant in Serbia?
Mark Mardell's words above demonstrate again the poor understanding of the politics, the mentality and the fundamental realities of the Balkans by those outside the region. He is a senior BBC journalist and should know better.
I suspect he and his collegues rely on the 'informed' opinions of a far too narrow section of Belgrade's populace and do not have the inclination to substantiate those 'opinions' from a wider and more objective audiance.
He is also, I suspect, influenced by the apparent need to maintain consistency in the BBC reporting. I mean, it wouldn't do if he wrote a piece on Serbia which contradicted everything that has gone before and contrary to UK policy. That would be like saying that both HMG and the BBC have got it all wrong for the past 15 years, wouldn't it.
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Cao,
Well, I may have believed in the European ideal rather than the EU, or I just moved into the wrong EU member...
I agree.
You are fine!
Veliki pozdrav!
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To Milivoje (16):
Romania and Bulgaria were both less developed countries than Serbia. However it tells something when you look at nominal GDP per capita.
Bulgaria 5,186$
Serbia 5,596$
Romania 7,697$
It tells more about failure of previous policies and what ultra nationalism has cost to the country when you compare Serbia to it's neighbors that have had peace and started European integration.
Croatia 11,576$
Slovenia 22,933$
It should be added that if Serbia doesn't renounce the legacy of past and move on from Serb nationalism that largely fueled both Kosovo war and brake up wars of Yugoslavia, I don't see any change that those previous number will come any better for Serbia.
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I didn't say that as my oppinion ..
Anyway, inside Former Yugoslavia, Croatia and Slovenia were more developed than Serbia before the brakedown!
All impossible-to-maintain self-governing companies with thousends of workers were in Serbia...
What would you say for the US, or Israel? US economic crisis is much more due to a wrong banking policy, than to a weapon production for bombings here and there...
It may sound strange, but for younger generations in Serbia (all those who were too young to go to military in the '90s) the story of nationalism is not a real thing. Exept for the bombing (I don't know how to describe that), they never saw any war, exept on TV, like you or everyone else in Europe.
I agree with you, but it is easier said than done.
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To Milivoje:
I would like to thank you for your honest and remarkably accurate comments.
Hardly anyone can fully perceive the sheer complexity of Serbian political life and rather sweet and sour relationship between Serbs and the rest of the "western" EU.
People like yourself (and yours truly) have experienced both worlds, and your take on the EU dream vs. the real EU is nothing but the stone carved fact.
I'd also like to thank Willie_Garvin for voicing out his views. I find them rather refreshing.
Veliki pozdrav,
Mihailo, USA
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Thank you for your support, Mihailo!
This is my first BBC blog day!
All the best!
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Willie_Garvin,
I am trying to understand whether or not your complaint about the Serbian media is that they don't engage in "advocacy journalism" or that writers are too lazy to do their homework on a subject to give their readers enough information to make a decent decision on their own about what is being said by the politician.
Here in the US, all we got was advocacy journalism on the Balkans for the last 17 years -- and it was (and is) shameless. Facts are omitted to fit a certain anti-Serb paradigm and propaganda is added to support lies. Most Americans can't tell the difference.
So on one hand, it would seem rather refreshing to just get the facts and none of the direction to the reader as to what to think.
On the other hand, if as a reader you aren't given enough information to put anything in a reasonable context, then that is a lazy journalist.
There is a fine line between giving a reader enough information to form a reasonable opinion, vs. telling the reader what to think. I am all for the former and dead-set against the latter unless the article is labeled "an editorial".
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I agree there Americanica.
I remember the first time I heard about Operation Storm - from my mate whose husband's family was driven out of the Krajina. I couldn't believe it because I just assumed that the Serbs were mostly nationalists who had done all the killing and were the only aggressors like Germany in WWII, not that there was another side to it all. I was looking at old news reports and I couldn't believe the amount of absolutely shameless propaganda about various events in the Balkan wars, and the amount of crude, war mongering racism which the people working in what are normally quite respectable news organisations, didn't even bother to hide, which wasn't even about the Serbs' actions but about their "national character" - which was completely negative, psychotic, and "inherently evil". To an extent that is still the case today although not as much.
However, to hear some of the stuff coming out of the Western media about Serbia you'd think that Milosevic was still in power, like they mention him all the time as if he isn't dead, when the same thing never happens in articles about Croatia with Tudjman - most people haven't even heard of him. It's just lazy, shock factor journalism which follows the official line and nothing else, although not everyone is like that.
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Americanica,
My 'complaint' is neither of the two options you propose.
My observation of political journalists and editors in Belgrade is that they are schooled, trained and expected to report as is. They go to great lengths to ensure accuracy in their reports. They are proud of not (apparently) showing any bias, subjectivity, or advocacy. The bias comes at the ownership level. The owner of a particular media outlet will proscribe the degree to which each party or individual is given column inches. True journalistic 'independence' is thus scarce - albeit perceived by the practitioners themselves!
Advocacy journalism is no less damaging. Whereas in Belgrade the politician can work the system to place any comment (truth or lie) directly into the public domain, the editor/journalist takes the lead in dictating the 'news' with their 'indpendent' advocacy.
I would like to see more 'informative' journalism - both here in Belgrade and elsewhere. 'Informative' journalism takes the quotations and places them into context. It doesn't make any attempt to advocate one opinion or another, it simply informs of the background.
Here's an illustration.
1) Yesterday President of Serbia, Boris Tadic, stated that, 'the SAA was a valid and binding legal document." He also said that, "blah, blah, blah..."
2) Yesterday President of Serbia, Boris Tadic, stated that, 'the SAA was a valid and binding legal document." The EU also issued a statement to the effect that the SAA would only become valid after the EU council has determined that Serbia is fully cooperating with the ICTY (ie Mladic is arrested and deported to the Hague) and that all EU member states ratify the SAA in their national parliaments.
3) Yesterday President of Serbia, and leader of the DS, Boris Tadic, maintained his stance on moving Serbia towards EU integration. The signing of the SAA was a clear indicator of this and is a "valid and binding legal document" according to him.
4) Yesterday President of Serbia, and leader of the DS, Boris Tadic, maintained his stance on misleading the Serbian citizens on their future integration with Europe. He deliberately made upbeat statements concerning the validity and legalilty of the SAA recently signed whereas the EU themselves have attached so many caveats that the document is worthless in its current form.
I'd like to seee more of the second version of the same story. Wouldn't you? The line is not that fine at all. It is artificially narrowed by ownership and editorial bias and the ability to be manipulated by outside influences.
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...
Maybe the missing 'informative' journalism in Serbia is partially compensated by the variety of editorial policies, that I don't find that much visible in the European media, as topics are different.
In some media like RTS (state-run) or Politika (50% owned by a German corp, but with stricktly Serbian editors due to contract rules) you can find information that, only together with the info from ex. B92 (that is more pro EU then the media in the EU) you can have entire picture. The same way on RTS you watch a serial on Russian natural resources, and on the B92 you watch a serial on Russian underground...
Only if one is fixated to watch or read only one media, he is definetly missguided...
For ex. in Italy, the difference between Mediaset (owned by Berlusconi with 3 channels on air and several on cable) and RAI (state-run) is much more noticable when Berlusconi is not in power... Not to mention that a Serbian Pink TV (trashy, amusing and very popular in entire Ex YU) gets most of its licences for various 'shows' from RAI (a European state-run TV that should have a distinctive programme)...
You should watch 'Insider' on B92 if you have the chance...
Cheers!
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Even though I hope SPS and DS are going to form a government, I think the people deserve to have SRS-DSS-SPS as government.
To be honest, those three parties have almost identical ideology. All of them live more or less in the past. I think that if they take power, the people would soon see that they made empty promises and that the economic and social situation would not change at all. DS would then get the necessary majority in the next election and bring Serbia into the EU. Yes, that would cost Serbia 4 years, but be careful what you wish (in this case vote) for!!!
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I would like to thank everyone who commented here for actually having something smart and thought out to say about the topic! It is encouraging to see that there are people in this world who actually think for themselves instead of having blind faith in whatever they are told. I was born in my beloved former Jugoslavia (half Croatian, half Serbian) and currently live in the US. Words can't express the pain I felt watching my country fall apart, but I do not take sides (I think we can all agree that all sides were in the wrong during our wars in 1990s), and love my homeland deeply. You would not believe the comments I got here in the US during the 1999 Kosovo war. "Oh, you're Serbian? So you're a murderer? What are you guys doing over there?" Seriously. The propaganda against the Serbs during the war was insane in the US, and so many people just ate it all up and believed every word. So it is very nice to see that there are people who don't think Serbs are demons. That is, if they know where Serbia is, since I often get, "is that in Russia?". ;o)
I have to make one comment re: Kosovo. I think that Kosovo splitting away is absolutely ridiculous. They have no right, none whatsoever, and it is appalling how easily international law can be ignored. My brother was sent to Kosare in Kosovo during the war, while I watched the bombing on tv from the US, and the last thing I want is for that to happen again. I just hope that everything is peaceful. Lose Kosovo forever or keep it, doesn't ultimately matter to me as much as not having another war. What will happen to the poor Serbs who are left there, I don't know, and I really feel for them. It's such a giant mess over there and I fear to be optimistic.
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He had to pay a very high price.....
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SERBIA HAS A HISTORICAL REASON TO KEEP KOSOVO? KOSOVO HAS A 95% ALBANIAN POPULATION AND YOU STILL THINK SERBIA HAS HISTORICAL REASON TO BE IN KOSOVO? IF SERBIANS THOUGHT SO WHY DID THEY KILLED THEIR OWN CITIZENS IN 1999? STILL NOW THEY ARE WAITING FOR SOME MIRACLE TO HAPPEND LOOKING AT RUSSIA AND CHINA. THE RECENTLY HELD ELECTION SHOWS THAT. IF YOU TELL ME THAT IT IS POLITICS NOT PEOPLE THAT ARE BAD IN SERBIA WHY THEN 48% OF THE PEOPLE ARE LOOKING EAST AND NOT WEST AND ARE PRO THE SAME PEOPLE THAT CREATED THE 1990-2000 BLOODSHED?
IT IS TIME TO FIND OUT WHO THE REAL SERBIA IS AND ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS TO ASK THEIR NEIGHBORS THE CROATIANS THE SLOVENIANS THE BOSNIANS THE KOSOVARS. ONE MAY LIE BUT NOT ALL OF THEM. AND AS MARK SAID SERBIA IS THE BLACK HOLE OF THE BALKANS TIME TO FEED THEM SOME OF THEIR OWN MEDICINE SO MAYBE THEY WILL LEARN SOMETHING AND IF THEY DO NOT, RUSSIA IS STILL THERE. WRITTE PUTIN A LETTER AND HE MAY HELP U.
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JUGOSLOVENKA YOU SAID THIS;
I have to make one comment re: Kosovo. I think that Kosovo splitting away is absolutely ridiculous. They have no right, none whatsoever, and it is appalling how easily international law can be ignored. My brother was sent to Kosare in Kosovo during the war, while I watched the bombing on tv from the US, and the last thing I want is for that to happen again. I just hope that everything is peaceful. Lose Kosovo forever or keep it, doesn't ultimately matter to me as much as not having another war. What will happen to the poor Serbs who are left there, I don't know, and I really feel for them. It's such a giant mess over there and I fear to be optimistic.
IT IS NOT 95% OF THE POPULATION IN KOSOVO ALBANIANS? THEN WHO ARE U TO TELL THEM THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO LIVE IN PEACE BY THEMSELVES? WHO ARE YOU THAT AFTER MURDERING 100S OF THOUSANDS OF THEM TO TELL THEM HOW TO LIVE THEIR LIVES? I LIVE IN USA TOO. THE PROPAGANDA WAS RIGHT BECAUSE YOU THE SERBS STARTED THE WAR YOU KILLED 100TS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE AND AFTER THE WORLD SAW THAT, YOU GOT FED YOUR OWN MEDICINE;WAR. WELCOME TO FAIR PLAY. U LIVE IN THE US? IF YOU HAVE COMPLAINS ABOUT USA WHY DONT U GO BACK WHERE U CAME FROM AND START COMPLAINING IN SERBIA AGAINST USA? BUT THEN OF COURSE YOU WILL NOT HAVE NO ACCESS TO INTERNET SO WE WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO SEE UR GENIUS PIECE DU RESITANCE THAT U POSTED HERE AND WHAT A WAISTE THAT WOULD BE.
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So in short, dorand_v, you hate Serbs and you don't know how to unlock caps.
Do you really think any Serb who reads you words will feel anythign but contempt for you? I'm willign to give you another chance if you care to post something more productive.
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Lol. Hate Serbs?And dont know how to unlock caps? And serbs are going to feel contempt for me? Ok let me answer you although I dont think u deserve it.
The fact that I am expressing the truth that does not mean I hate someone. Since when expressing the truth= being restricted to write? Being an US citizen I strongly disagree with your liberal view that if the truth is hurting someone we should not publish it. I have the right to talk about it just as the other side has the right to talk about it. And as for Serbs that are reading what I wrote, Guys how does it feel to be bullied around? I bet u not good he? Get used to it because if you still willing to burn western ambasies( not 100 years ago and not in the middle east but just last year and in Europe) and still voting for the nacionalists....lol there is more to come, you are not doing anything to anyone accept urselfes. And to the nacionalists. why do u write in Latin? Why dont u write in that HIEROGLIFIC language of urs? Maybe someone will understand you..... IN RUSSIA.
And back to you manaskunk
anything what I said above is a lie?
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Just what truth are you expressing? I don't see anything but emotionly fueled opinion in your post.
You obviously have another agenda here. May I suggest you take you anger out on Youtube Serbian videos. You can say alot more nasty stuff there then you can here.
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Everyone killed thousands of people in the Balkans. Not just the Serbs. EVERYONE did it and the West are hardly innocent in the whole thing. In fact a good case may be made that were it not for their involvement the whole thing may not have happened the way it did, especially not in Bosnia.
Where were the humanitarian bombers of the USA and UK during Tudjman's persecution of the Serbs. Tudjman, a man who openly admired the Ustasha and tried to copy them, the Nazi regime of Croatia in World War II. They were providing military support to this man and his regime to fulfil his "goal".
What heroes they were. Lovely people, eh?
Where were they in Srebrenica for that matter, either during Naser Oric's atrocities or during the Srebrenica massacre itself which I agree was a massacre and completely wrong. I mean they are promoting democracy throughout the world right, so they would have done something about it right???
No. They were doing NOTHING.
Can you look at their actions and say they did the right thing in any of these cases? I suppose the person with the biggest weapons is the winner, and whatever they say is always right.
Truly truly disgusting.
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As for burning Western embassies.
Oh, boo hoo, cry me a river. What's surprising is that it doesn't happen more often over there, or anywhere else where Western governments have put their filthy fingers into the "pies", not caring about the consequences for people's lives, not caring about anyone at all, on either side.
Its the least the West deserve from the Serbs. We have treated them APPALLINGLY.
About Russia:
Part of the reason - not all - that Russia is so poor today is because of the economic policies, encouraged by Western governments and the IMF and the World Bank who made loans to Russia conditional on them undertaking a policy of "shock therapy" which was the very rapid transition from a planned to a capitalist economy. Without any kind of strategy to put this in place it was obviously going to lead to disaster. And GUESS WHAT? It did, it resulted in hyperinflation, food shortages and a huge amount of political instability, an increase in nationalism, and completely destroyed people's lives and left about twelve people in charge of the most of the wealth of the Country.
The West backed Boris Yeltsin who sent tanks into Russia's parliament because the people in it declared his constitutional changes, whereby he would give himself most of the power, illegal. America really cares about democracy, doesn't it?
Think about what you say before you make such moronic statements in future.
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yaasehshalom wrote:
Oh, boo hoo, cry me a river. What's surprising is that it doesn't happen more often over there, or anywhere else where Western governments have put their filthy fingers into the "pies", not caring about the consequences for people's lives, not caring about anyone at all, on either side.
WELL THEN WHY DO U WANT TO BE PART OF THE WESTERN WORLD?
manaskunk wrote:
Just what truth are you expressing? I don't see anything but emotionly fueled opinion in your post.
WHAT TRUTH? NASTY STUFF? YOU TUBE? FUELED OPINION? MY ANGRY AT ANYONE? LOL. VERY SUGGESTIVE, VERY SUGGESTIVE A BIT MANASKUNKED BUT VERY SUGGESTIVE UR COMMENTS.
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I'm not a Serb, Dorand_V. I'm already part of the Western world. I'm quite happy living in the UK - do you think that because someone likes living somewhere that they should just go along with everything it does and not criticise anything?
Does that not sound like a form of Totalitarianism to you?
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yaasehshalom wrote:
I'm not a Serb, Dorand_V. I'm already part of the Western world. I'm quite happy living in the UK - do you think that because someone likes living somewhere that they should just go along with everything it does and not criticise anything?
Does that not sound like a form of Totalitarianism to you?
I kinda got it where u from. The shalom part gave u away.Lol. Listen, my opinion is that the Serbs are not ready to join the west. They may think they are ready because who does not want to emigrate in the west or to have foreign investments pour in they country but the political mindset there is very very regresive. That is why I mentioned the embassy burnings and the genocide. As I said this did not happened a generation ago or more, this happened 10 years ago and continued up to last year. The political forces that fueled these nasty things are still in the country and they are getting the votes 48% of them or more. This is what disturbes me. WHY INTELLIGENT PEOPLE LIKE YOU THINK WE SHOULD ENCOURAGE SUCH BEHAVIOR BY WELCOMING THEM IN MIDTS OF US?.Why should we look at the future when we still are uncertain about the present? I have nothing against serbs if they respect human life. But othervise my countrymen USA visit every country for 2 reasons
1 to vacate there and have a good time
2 to drop bombs and kick some ass
We are comming no matter what ur choice to pick what we will do.Lol.
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The Serbs have been committing genocide up to last year? I would like to see a source for this please, because as far as I know, Milosevic has been dead for several years, and Serbia has not been involved in any wars since 1999.
First of all, as badly as the Serbs have behaved, and I fully agree that they have behaved completely apallingly, other countries have done the EXACT same thing to them, but have not recieved the same punishment, and have in fact been rewarded. What are your comments about Operation Storm, I take it you think this is a good thing because It happened to Serbs.
And, wouldn't you want to burn Serbia's embassy, if the Serbs, decided that they would be doing the world a favour if they decided to "restore democracy" and bombed Washington and New York to get it to leave Iraq and Afghanistan and stop killing people everywhere? Or if they looked at how the American government treated the areas affected by Hurricane Katrina and then invaded New Orleans and declared it independent, supposedly because of how America treats black people, but it was actually made to be a Serb and Russian colony? Don't you think you would be slightly annoyed at Serbia, if this happened?
So you think the Serbs dont deserve to be in the West? Well. Is a country that invades other countries for no apparent reason apart from to grab oil, that literally steals parts of other countries for their own political interests, that uses inhabited islands to conduct nuclear tests, that has bases on foreign territories without those countries' permission, and kidnaps people in the middle of the night to take them to secret prisons and tortures them ready to be in the West?
You tell me mate.
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And the fact that you talk about the USA going to other countries "to drop bombs and kick some ass" doesn't say much for your respect for human life, my friend. That kind of attitude disgusts me.
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Ok this is the last comment of mine on this issue because u playing with the facts.
1- I did say the serbs have burned ambasies up to last year.
2- the operation storm and the attack on Serbia did not happened because we wanted to restore democracy in Serbia. It happened to prevent the serbs from killing any more inocent people in Kosovo and preventing another bosnia-hercegovina like masacre in Kosovo.
3- If you are wanting to go against USA because u think USA is unfair and not democratic, well all I can do is laugh at your pro Russian comments. As I said like it or not the truth is that the whole russian coutry collapsed taking down the ideology too. If you are wanting to talk about how u disagree with USA, lol, u live in Britain, talk to them about it since they embrace the same political views with us at least for the moment.
And last, the fact that when we go anywhere we go for 2 reasons,lol, all I got to say is WE ARE THE BEST. DON'T HATE THE PLAYER, HATE THE GAME.
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dorand_v, would you please be so kind to read my post (#49) on the 'A European Destiny?'. If you're American (?) and if you read my post you will see why it was in AMERICAS (your) BEST INTEREST to look into not only what Serbs did, but what the others did in Balkans, as well. And please bear in mind that I'm quoting US Government?s OFFICIAL DOCUMENT.
Take care?
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If you think that Operation Storm happened because of Kosovo then you are extremely ignorant and all I have to say that your view of the situation is completely skewed by US propaganda. Operation Storm was nothing to do with Kosovo which happened in 1999, this incident happened in 1993-95, I cannpt believe your ignorance, it happened because Tudjman wanted to drive the Serbs out of Croatia. It is well known as being the single biggest act of ethnic cleansing in the whole of the Balkan wars, about 300 000 people were driven out of their homes, and it happened against Serbs.
Sadly when it comes to this sort of thing you are not alone in being misinformed. I would say a majority of people here, either don't know or don't believe it even happened, or think it was a good thing. But you can look it up, it is on the internet.
"All I have to say is WE ARE THE BEST."
Oh my god. That says it all.
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And another thing.
Serbia has been a peaceful, democratic country since 2000 and has not attacked any other country since then. They are trying to get on with life so, they should should be left alone to get along with their lives, and the USA, which has killed many more people but has never had the slightest thing done about it, and actually has laws to stop it's war criminals being tried elsewhere, should stop bullying them. I include Britain in this too because our government basically do whatever America says regardlless of what the population think.
When are we going to see America sign up to the International Criminal Court and hand over it's war criminals the way Serbia has?
I can't see it happening. Can you?
Can the same be said for the USA and the UK? Of course not. Lets see how many countries they have attacked since 1999:
Serbia
Iraq
Afghanistan
Iraq (again)
Somalia - an innocent country, unable to defend it's self, without a government.
Pakistan - America's ally. America attacked Pakistan because some "terrorists" lived in the villages along the border and this would be the "right" thing to do.
And you think all these things were good because you guys get to go and "kick some ass".
Utterly utterly sickening.
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Dragisa wrote:
dorand_v, would you please be so kind to read my post (#49) on the 'A European Destiny?'. If you're American (?) and if you read my post you will see why it was in AMERICAS (your) BEST INTEREST to look into not only what Serbs did, but what the others did in Balkans, as well. And please bear in mind that I'm quoting US Government?s OFFICIAL DOCUMENT.
Dragisa I respect ur views. But you have to know something. We already did what is in our interest. Do u really think that if it would have been in our interest othervise we would't have approached the matter differently? I tell this to the Russians and whomever we fought against and I will tell u the same thing. Be a good loser. Accept the fact that you messed up and lost.That cost you 3/4 of your country but that what happes to the loser.The winer enjoys the spoils. Everybody loses when they mess with the BEAST. Ur not the only one Russia tried and lost the Germans tried and lost etc etc etc. After accepting that than you will move forward towards the New Europe.
And as fas as the russian jew it goes
1 question for the all knowing jew
Who started the war in the former yougoslavia?
After answering that I will rest my case.
sice u hate USA and Britain so much why u stay in britain? why dont u go back to wherever u from? But this is the beauty of ours. Although some ppl hate us we still let them live in peace ir our lands unlike ur russian and serbian counterparts.
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What has my being Jewish got to do with the price of fish? How is it relevant?
I like living in the UK and I can't "go back to wherever I am from" because I am from here! It doesn't mean that I like the government, or have to agree with what it does.
You seem to have a philosophy of "might is right". The people with the biggest weapons win. It has nothing to do with who'se right, or wrong but who is the most powerful, who "wins", who has the biggest army.
Can you not see how distgusting this is?
How can you not see????
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Dorand,
Wow. A bit of an anger management problem???
Your comments are so absolutely ridiculous that you prove my point about many people being gullible followers. So I guess in a way, thank you! :o)
You say that Kosovo should be independent because the of the population. Well then get ready to give up chunks of the US to Mexico. And don't get me started about Native Americans! If we're going by who lives there to make new countries, we'll be redrawing borders all over the world forever. Where will it end? Why can't Republica Srpska be independent? Ireland? Or for that matter, Hawaii? Serbia has offered Kosovo Albanians everything, just shy of full independence. They have full freedom to live their lives and have representation in government, but that wasn't enough. In fact, it's the Serbs there that live in fear and poverty. IN THIER OWN COUNTRY! So why again should we lose it? Because the US said so?
Serbs killed thousands of people. I believe the Albanians were involved in the war as well. What's the US doing now in Iraq but killing? Pat Tillman, WMDs, the entire argument for war, Abu Garib. Just a few examples. Pot calling the kettle black honey! Also, the KLA has been on the list of terrorist groups for a while. Since you are someone who I guess loves Bush and believes that the US is spreading democracy, how can you support a terrorist muslim group who traffics heroin? You are an America Hater then, not a patriot.
I won't have internet in Serbia. :o) I suppose you have never left Kansas so you wouldn't know how any other countries live, but it's still funny.
And I will eventually move back to my homeland, but for right now I am content living in the US and trying to make it a better place by voicing my discontent for the wrong doings of those in charge. After all, that is the ultimate patriotic move. Or should we be sheep and follow blindly just because it's an American telling us so? Is that what the founding fathers would have wanted us to do?
You have no facts in your argument, only regurgitated crap, so how about reading and thinking, instead of talking about something you have no idea about.
Thanks again for the laughs! And proving my point.
"Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule."
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yaasehshalom:
He will see how the "might is right" policy is disgusting when the US is no longer the world power and he has to deal with the consequences of his past ignorance. Then he will want more liberal views and rights! Now, it's the easy way out to live your life without having to think. I mean really, his answer to everything is "go back to where you came from", get a little more creative than that! I suppose he will keep his mouth shut when Hillary or Barack are president? Yeah right, he'll be complaining about them like there's no tomorrow, which means, he will be a total hypocrite, along with ignorant, and maybe an anti-semite (???). He is obviously someone who has never traveled since he thinks the US and UK are the only free countries, not realizing that many other countries actually have more freedom. People like him are so crazy the second anyone criticizes the US, and it's not that we're saying that it all sucks, just that we don't agree with certain things. It's completely normal and we have every right to say it (and I would have that same right in Serbia, everything I hear people say about the politicians there is bad, how come everyone isn't in jail being waterboarded?)! And for the record, I hate ALL politicians!
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"Who started the war in the former yougoslavia?"
The all-knowing American should know, I lived there at the time, am half Croatian half Serbian, and know what happened. Where were you??? What qualifies you to talk on this subject? Stop talking, you have no idea what you are talking about! I have family who was drafted into the wars (on both sides), I have actually lost friends, family and relatives in those wars, I have had family members on both sides be forced out of their homes and lose their life savings, my mother's childhood home had so many bullet holes through it I was surprised it was still standing, I have relatives on both sides who have been wounded in the wars and carry those scars still. Don't tell me what went on in the war. I have family in Lika, Split, Zadar, Vukovar, Serbia, and Bosnia. Trust me, I know what went on. How about you? Oh that's right, Fox News qualifies you!
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People I just want to clarify something. Jugoslovenka, I live in the New York City. I see tons of you people comming here and begging for jobs. I have traveled all over Western Europe, Far East and South Americas. As a matter of fact I am going to visit Spain in a couple of months. I have the feeling u live in the USA 2. What a great country that lets u live in peace and prosper even though you hate our guts. U try and go against the serbs in serbia. Lol. Last that happened millions died.
Just as a fact USA is going to be the world power long after u and I die. Lol, so I take u and I will not live to see that day. Sorry. As for right now BOW DOWN TO THE CHIEF CAUSE HE IS COMMING. The Chief would be USA.Lol.
And yaasehshalom u still have not answered my question...
WHO STARTED THE WAR?
Fox News Jugoslovenka? Lol not at all but on the other hand why not?
By the way change ur name there is no more Jugoslavia. From now on I will call you Former Jugoslovenka. Lol.And chill out this is just a blog Noone is invading serbia again. Did that once found nothing there then left. As I said dont hate the player hate the game.
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Indeed, these are very, very challenging times for Serbia. Serbia never before needed a good leader as today. Current leaders, if I may call them so, do not appear to know what they are really into. They are simply looking for the wind in their backs to gain vital support from the unwitting population. They are very vague in telling people what they will get in return because they know that the news is not good! Kosovo was taken away from Serbia as a punishment for refusing to change their system of government, thus ducking NATO states' overtures to join them. In addition, NATO leaders could not stomach of being indited, by former Yugoslavia, as war criminals! NATO's protocols make it impossible for war crimes indictments against them. War crimes indictments apply only to NATO states ideological foes. Serbia's enemies are too proud to accept defeat to their not so genuine policies.
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Dorand:
You don't have to guess or have a feeling, I put in my first blog that I live in the US. I have lived here for 20 years, though I visit Jugoslavia regularly. I am Americanized a good amount, however, I am proud of my culture and choose to keep many aspects of it, WITHOUT bothering anyone with it. I spent my childhood in Jugoslavia, how could I not have a massive emotional bond to it? Just think about it. Because I consider myself Jugoslavian, not American, how is that an insult to the US when I was born in Jugoslavia? If you moved to Greece tomorrow, would you be Greek (you know, they like the Serbs as well, not just Russia, a little tidbit for you)? I live in the states, working hard in a job that actually gives back to the community, seriously. I pay my taxes, donate to numerous charities, and generally try and be a good person. How is that bad for the US? Because when I get older they'll have one less person to worry about paying Medicare, etc. for (because I will go back to my country)? I am simply exercising my right to speak my mind. Hell, with the amount I pay to taxes, I've paid for that right even if it wasn't given to me by the laws! Trust me.
I do not hate the US, I simply don't like some things that go on here. What do you not understand about that? There are plenty of wonderful things here that happen every day. However, there are also bad things. Just like in Serbia. And in fact, I voice my opinion there all the time as well, and have criticized the former and current governments openly and loudly. How come I'm still alive? And the rest of my family who lives there and does the same thing? They just haven't gotten to us yet after all these years? Or is it that you are completely wrong. You really do think that the US is the only free country and that the rest of the world lives in fear from their evil government. Wow. I don't even know what to say that.
I refer to myself as Jugoslavian because that's the nation I grew up in until they split apart. Being that I am Croatian and Serbian by blood, have had Slovenians, Montenegrans, Bosnians, and Goranci in the family by marriage, which nation should I claim? All of them? Because I am close to blood and non-blood relatives. We are consider ourselves Jugoslavians. It may be stupid to you, but not to us. I don't know how else to explain it to you.
MILLIONS of people died at Serb hands? In what war? Where are you getting your numbers?
Why no Fox News? If you have to ask that question that tells me everything. It should be referred to as "Fox Opinion", not news.
I see you went to WESTERN Europe, not Eastern. Hmm, but yet here you are, the expert on Eastern Europeans. Interesting. You may travel from time to time, but you obviously don't take anything from your travels since you continue to be ignorant and view the world as black and white. I can only hope that you do not procreate or actually influence anyone with your views.
Also, are you aware that the dollar is weak and that the US no longer has the biggest and strongest economy? Because it is already heading towards the US not being the world power. Not sure of how old you are, but it will happen in my lifetime! Have you heard of China and India's growth? Do you know where foreign investments are mostly going? Are you aware of the booming investments in developing countries? Do you realize that most people in the US are two paychecks away from losing their homes? What about the current foreclosure problems? And how about that dirty R word, Recession, which most of this country believes that we are in, and we are. Brush up on your economic news and then comment on economic topics.
Nothing to say to try and defend your president on Iraq at least? Surprising. I bet you were the first one to sit on your couch and talk about how someone else should go to war after Sept. 11th.
Seriously, why are you on a BBC site giving Americans a bad name?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#53:
Yugoslavia, if it had any value, would not have crumbled like a house of cards. The first Yugoslavia was a proto-fascist dictatorship that terrorized non-Serbs and democrats, engaged in cultural imperialism, and robbed the people blind. The second Yugoslavia was a Communist dicatorship (at times a "soft" dictatorship), that played the USSR and West off of each other for funds, and, once those funds ran out, crumbled. Because a healthy nation, with any validity, human rights, transparent press, or domestic and international legitimacy, does not give rise to a Milosevic, who rose using the hate-speech of the Serb dominated press to play on Serb fears (more paranoia than legitimate fears), and chauvinism. Only in banana states like Yugoslavia do Milosevic's come to power, and only people brainwashed by years of hysterical propaganda, defend those failed states and criminal ideologies a decade after they fade into oblivion.
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Actually any nation can give rise to people like Milosevic, Tudjman, etc. Don't fool yourself. It could happen ANYWHERE.
Tito's regime undoubtedly fuelled and masked a lot of ethnic tensions which contributed to evil people like Milosevic taking advantage of it. But different combinations of factors could give rise to other things. And there are other countries in Europe which are just as divided in many ways which have managed to make the transition to a democratic state peacefully since the end of communism.
So. dont fool yourself. It can happen anywhere.
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54. At 04:47 am on 22 May 2008, pennsyltucky
This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
Why did u remove the comments from pennsyltucky. The only comments that showed how everything started? Is this BBC? I thought an accurate journalism is a must for you guys? Why do u let people lie on your blogsite but do remove the truth from it? SHAME ON YOU. I think that for people to discuss on something they need to know the truth so they can't distort the facts. A healthy discussion is the one based on the truth and not fiction.
SHAME ON YOU BBC SHAME ON YOU.
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It must be those evil Serbs, Dorand. They've taken over the BBC.
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You sound like a medieval priest,Dorand,there is only one interpretation of truth for you.There is a lot of passion and xenophobia in your posts,it made me think that you must be an Albanian or something.
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If he was Albanian it would be a bit more understandable because Serbia does have a LOT to answer for in Kosovo (it does't make anything right though).
More likely it's just someone who thinks the USA is the greatest country in the world, there are a lot of them about unfortunately, America does seem to have a few too many of them but you get them everywhere, in the UK, France, Serbia, everywhere. Or someone on a wind up ...
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I re-edited this to ensure that there is nothing that is not part of the public historical record. It is interesting how "Lt. Rinas" attacks me personally in another thread, but does not get his post removed; when I retort in the same mannor, then I get removed. Lets try this again:
In regards to comment #44; you seem to have missed most of the relevant events of 1985-1996 in regards to Croatia.
The (open that is) war in Croatia started in the spring of 1991, and ended in
the summer of 1995; it was not from 1993-1995. Here are the relevant events:
a) Tito dies
b) 1985 the Serbian Acadamy of Arts and Sciences "Memorandum," the Serb
academia's own Mein Kampf, is published in the Serb press, and Yugoslav press
(which was controlled by Serbs by and large in all of the republics; this is a statistical fact). It is
nothing more than a piece of hate literature with no valid points or even facts.
c) The Socialist Serb Republic and Federalstate apparatus' begin a hysterical anti-Albanian, anti-Croatian,
and anti-Slovenian campaign; it still continues to this day (see Politika OPEDS; since there really is not much hard news, but OPEDS passing as "hard news" framing events to reinforce the "the entire world is part of an anti-Serbian conspiracy" theory pushed by the Yugoslav Communsts and Serb neo-fascist ultra-nationalists, SRP).
d) 1987: Milosevic's rise; with money embezzled by Milosevic from Federal funds,
he organizes "meetings of truth" where Serbian communist party members give
speeches in Croatia, BH, Macedonia, Montenegro, and Slovenia about how the
Serbs, 46% of Yugoslavia's population but 60% of the YPA officer Corps, 59% of
the Yugoslav Communist party and Federal government, are "endangered" even
though the Belgrade-loyal Republican communist parties are in power, there is no
free press, no non-communist political parties, and all non-Serbs are terrified.
One must note that it was at these communist party meetings, that songs, flags,
caps, and slogans of WWII Serb nazi collaborationists were in abundance; because
the goal of the Communists and neo-Fascists in Serbia and in the Serb community
was the same: the centralization of the state and the absolute suppression of
logic and democracy and a continued cultural and territorial "Serbianization" of Yugoslavia.
e) 1988 Serbs, a 12% minority in the then socialist republic of Croatia, are 7
out of 8 editors of the major newspapers, 47.5% of the Croatian Communist party
(in fact the president of Croatia's communist party was Serb), which translated
into industry, management, and business control (neo-appartheid rule anyone), 80% of
the Territorial Defense/YPA and 70% of the police in the Socialist Republic of
Croatia at this time, begin recieving arms from the YPA, Serbian State Security
Services, and Yugoslav Military Intelligence; there were no political parties in
Croatia at this time, and the Serb media quisically asked what would happen
after the "Croatian Silence." It was after all of this became public, that
non-Communist, democratic Croatian political parties formed.
f) Summer of 1989-Spring of 1991; Serb ultranationalists in Croatia, armed to
the teeth, begin acts of violence and "soft" ethnic cleansing, in what is known
as the "log revolution." It is during this time that a non-Communist party
coalition wins the Croatian government. The bulk of their support comes from Croat refugees from Serb paramilitary controlled areas, tens of thousands of them already, and their families.
g) Spring 1991; ultranationalist Serb terrorists and paramilitaries begin
widespread open ethnic cleansing of non-Serbs (and democratic oriented Serbs) in
Croatia, attack Croatian villages. The YPA, which armed the Serbs and which is
loyal to Milosevic (who, along with his coalition partner and open fascist
(together in 1990-1991 they had merely 94% of Serbia backing them in the
elections), steps in to "separate the warring factions" (i.e., consolidate the
fascist paramilitary's ethnic cleansing and genocide campaign). It must be noted
that the "endangered Serbs" who were "discriminated against" according to
Milosevic's media, seemed to miss the swearing in of Milanka Opacic, a Croatian
Serb, as the first President of Croatia's parliament. Indeed, the "endangered
Serbs" seemed to miss the fact that half of Croatia's Serbs did not choose
Milosevic's Communist unitarism or Seselj's fascism, but embraced Croatia's
vibrant new and free multi-party democracy. 6% of Croatia's soldiers who fought for democracy and European integration were Serb during the
war. This is a cultural and socio-economic phenomena; the Serbs from the rural areas by and large supported Milosevic and his maniacs, while the Serbs from the cities and urban areas stayed loyal to Croatia and democratic change.
h) 1991-1995; Croatian Serb paramilitaries and terrorists, backed and operating
under the command of and with units of the YPA and Serbian National Guard,
ethnically cleanse over 250,000 Croats and non-Serbs, and publicly and "legally"
ban them from ever returning from their ancestral homes, kill over 10,000
civlians, maim over 30,000, torch, loot, and destroy over 30,000 homes, and
destroy 1/3 of industry and infrastructure, and end the lucrative tourist
industry. Not a single investigation was ever started for any warcrimes against
Croats or non-Serbs; indeed, Babic, one of the Serb ringleaders, admitted at the Hague that of the 400 elderly Croatian civlians slaughtered by his police, none
recieved a proper investigation, because no papers were filed to investigate. It was "business as usual" in the "Krajina"
i) Radical Serbs in the so-called "Krajina" turn down the Z-4 agreement, which
would have given them their defacto fantasy state which was built on ethnic cleansing and genocide, on the grounds that refugee
returns of non-Serbs was unacceptable and "fascistic."
j) Croatia in the summer of 1995 was on the verge of economic collapse because
of it being split in two, with 1/8 of its population as refugees, with its
villages, towns, and cities being attacked via artillery, sniper fire, mortar
fire, and infantry attacks, decides that after Z-4, and the open and public
threat of "General" Ratko Mladic to make Srebrenica look like "a joke" compared
to what he and the Bosnian Serb and Croatian Serb paramilitary forces were going
to do to the 240,000 Bosniaks in the Bihac pocket, that enough was enough and
Serbia's genocidal Greater Serbia project had to be defeated, and Croatia launched
Operation Storm, which effectively ended the war and forced a peace agreement.
The Croatian Serbs, like the Sudeten and Silesian Germans, threw their lot with the wrong
side for all of the wrong reasons, and lost. But, contrary to Sudeten and Silesian Germans, were not banned
from returning, and are returning.
The Serb political party is now in a coalition government with Tudjman's HDZ.
This could have happened in 1991. Its high time Serbs open their eyes to the
lies and propaganda their intellectual, military, political, and (sadly and
shamefully) church leaders (the Serbian Orthodox Patriarch for Croatia, Slovenia, and Northern Italy declared Milosevic the new "Saint Sava," and told Croatian Serbs that they had to fight with Milosevic in his "Holy war" against the "decadant West") have been filling them with over the past decade and
a half. The onus of the start and duration of the war, in addition to
responsibility for 90% of attrocities committed, lies with the Serb voters and
the Serb forces those voters choices forced to fight for Milosevic's
schitzophrenic power-gamble. Until Serbs have a catharsis, the Balkans will be a
very troubled place.
I suggest readers of this blog purchase Prime Time Crime (Kemal Kurpasic), Yugoslavia Death of a Nation (BBC Book and Documentary; Laura Silber and Allan Little), Croatia, a Nation Forged in War (Marcus Tanner), Forging War (Mark Thompson), Serbia's Secret War (Phillip Cohen), The Myth of Ethnic War (Philip Gagnon), Rape Warfare (Beverly Allan) and draw your conclusion. The chronological order of events, voting trends, and refugee and casualty statistics says it all.
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You wanted facts? you got facts. Read above. Lol. But I don't blame you guys. You guys are traumatized. There are two worlds out there. The one that ur brain produces the fantasy one that tries to make sense of every mess you create, and that is the world u live in for now, and there is the other world the real one. The way others see you is the real world, and sorry to say but the facts show that you started a war you killed 1000s of people and pursued with genocide. That is why USA intervened and this is how the world sees u. It is not up to us to prove these facts it is up to u to reflect on these facts and make sure that does not happen again because if it does we will have to visit you again and you know what happens if we come to visit.
And one more thing, BBC moderators why u keep removing my posts? Not all opinions are the same. U got to understand that even though we disagree we r civilized people that can handle a little diversity of opinions. If u can't handle that,get another job, buddy.
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To dorand_v
My response to your #65 comments. I agree with everything you said. I would like to add a few more relevant facts to what happened in former Yugoslavia. Looking from the outside in, Yugoslavia's system of government, as was the case with all other Warshaw Pact states, was on the NATO radar screen for a long time, earmarked for eventual demolition. Yugoslavia was either not aware, or maybe simply ignorant of it. Yes, Milosevic was very naive and played into NATO states' " final solution" for Yugoslavia, in the worst imaginable way!
As I have said before, the Yugoslav Army's duty was to defend constitution, therefore territorial integrity and order, among other things. Same is true of all NATO states!
You will know that Slovenia first, followed by Croatia began to roll the ball that led to Yugoslavia's ultimate demise. Slovenia's and Croatia's borders were not disputable as those of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Indeed, Bosnia and Herzegovina borders were only tacitly recognised by Serbs and Croats as long as they remain a part of Yugoslavia because of their large Croatian and Serbian population.
Yugoslav Army, controlled by Serb generals, made a big mistake by allowing itself to be sucked into a war, as opposed to keeping peace as much as it could. NATO was not willing to act to soon until they felt that circumstances on the ground will dictate their inevitable intervention. As far as NATO was concerned, communism must go no matter what! At the time, Yugoslavia was the last country still under the communist system of government. Confuse, divide and destroy is a powerful weapon to bring down any regime, no matter how powerful! NATO propaganda machine did a good job!
In retrospect, Milosevic, if he were smart as opposed to proud, he should have called in the UN to intervene on Yugoslavia's behalf. At least he would have something to keep his enemies at bay. This might be a wishful thinking on my part, nevertheless, knowing what happened, in the former Yugoslavia, it would be a far better move.
Then again, US and Britain would want to delay intervention to allow situation to further deteriorate as to have a better pretext to remove Milosevic from power. This is in fact what they have done via the Kosovo Albanians, helping them to mount uprising against Milosevic's regime, with a promise via the so-called Rambouillet Agreement that was anything but (3 year ultimatum) for their imminent independence.
Finally, we should pay more attention on those who spearheaded disastrous events, in the former Yugoslavia, as opposed to what happened as a consequence, afterwards! Therefore, to know who is really responsible for Yugoslavia's demise is the one who is happy now as opposed to before! We must remember that the former republics separated as a result of Slobodan Milosevic's attempt to strengthen his control over Yugoslavia as opposed to a communist system of government. NATO insisted that former republics dump first communism as a precondition for their recognition and help!
There is so much more, but is mostly irrelevant now! I leave it at that for now.
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Pennsyltucky, I'm sorry if I offended you. But I still stand by my comment, that I think Tudjman was a very evil man, and I think that what happened during Oluja etc was inexcusable, just as what Milosevic did to the Croatian people was inexcusable.
The person who told me this - about the subtitled films and such like - was a half Croatian half Serb guy who was constcripted into the army but claimed political asylum here in the UK. He had family suffer on both sides. I know another woman whose husband's family were also forced of the Krajina. I would just like to see it discussed in the media, because I do not like to see people, who I know suffered, portrayed as completely evil psychopaths and a completely one sided picture given which distorts the truth, not to say that Milosevic was right or anything of the sort (which he wasn't, he was extremely evil).
And like you I am disgusted at people who try and portray all Croatians as Nazis, and the like, and try and say what happened during WWII makes atrocities committed by Milosevic's regime against Croatians OK. It does not.
Of course Croatian people suffered during the war, and, of course they too have a reason to be scared in the period leading up to their independence, I don't think Tujdman got in power, for no reason, apart from that the Croatians were "evil", that's as bad as saying that the Serbs were all evil. Milosevic like Tudjman undoubtedly exploited the situation for his own ends. And I am also shocked by the (Western) people who want to make him out to be some kind of hero against imperialism, he was not. He was just another killer who happened to be on the opposite side of the war from the USA, this does not make him a good person and I think anyone who says that needs to take a good look at themselves.
But that does not mean that we should excuse atrocities by the other side and blame absolutely everything on Serbia. Serbia has a lot of things to blame for and it needs to do more to bring Mladic and co to justice. However, they were not the only country to commit war crimes, and I wish the media would portray the issue in a more balanced way, than what it does.
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Yeshalom (sorry about the spelling):
Are you saying that the Czechs and Poles shared equal guilt for the fate of the Germans of Silesia and Sudetenland because those Germans, a majority that of them, chose a criminal ideology and faced retribution at the hands of their neighbors-victims?
Mind you, the media model was drastically different in those days; everyone in YU had a satellite dish and access to outside news, Serbs included. In 1991 they 67% chose the Communist turned Socialist Nationalist (or, National-Socialist if you will) Slobodan Milosevic, and 27% chose Vojislav "We will dig the Croat eyes out with rusty spoons" Seselj.
90% is overwhelming and one sided, no matter from what angle you look at it. Chronological order of events, voting trends, etc. places the responsibility on the Serbian government and political elites, period. Belgrade pushed the Serbs into a hysteria and armed them before Tudjman or Alija climbed out of the buttocks of history; indeed, this was the very reason why they went from political nothings to presidents: armed and arming radicalized Serbs demanding everything they denied the Albanians in Kosovo, and more.
As for war crimes, Croatia has and continues to process their own; unfortunately, part of the Erdut Agreement (which allowed for the peaceful reintegration of the Vukovar-Srijem region into Croatia; which demolishes any false arguments of Tudjman or Croatia fighting for "ethnic purity" because the agreement meant that Serbs stayed) was a blanket amnesty of Serbs responsible for war crimes. And again, it was Babic, Martic, and the fantasy government of the fascist "Krajina" that ordered a Serb evacuation to "RS", not the Croatian Army or Tudjman, and it was the Serbs that refused any negotiations because the "right of all refugees to return to their pre-war homes" clause was too "fascistic" to bear. I have never and will never claim that Croats were angels in the last war, but, compared to the YPA, Army SRK, Army RS, and the hodge podge of ultra nationalists, junkies, alcoholics, and conscripted prisoners that the Republic of Serbia was sending as reinforcements, the Croatian Army, which was still forming as a cohesive fighting force with command and control and a uniform code of justice, etc., do look like angels. Neither the Croats or Muslims had dozens of rape camps or concentration camps; brutal conditions, yes, but not concentration camps and rape camps, which the Serbs had in abundance, and with the blessing of the government who were voted for by the Serbian people (because Croats and Muslims were "legally" banned from voting in the "Serbian Republic of Krajina" and in the "Republika Srpska").
I denounce all radicalism, yes, but I do realize when victims turn to radicalism in response to becoming victims it is far different from those who have absolute power decide to radicalise during a time of peace and relative prosperity and stability and vicitimize people.
Moral relativisation is not a good thing; it prevents an airing of the facts and a true catharsis, and road to future peaceful coexistance.
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Stanwalner i do not agree with ur opinion that the responsible guys for the yogoslavian mess are happy now. U know why? Hitler started the war but he lost and the Germans were the unhappiest, right? Slobodan started a war and lost and the serbs are the unhappiest now. Do u see a pattern there? I do agree with most of what u said about Slobodan as he was stupid for starting a war in the 1990-2000 in europe. It is the new millenium and europe should be much more civilized than that. I do not agree with u as for him being patriotic. A man that orders the killing of it's own citizens may they be croatians sllovenians albanians, is not a patriot but nothing more than a sharlatan who is power hungry and tries to build an emporium at all costs with no regards to human life.
As for u (yaasehshalom) u said that u live in ENGLAND. Why do u make urself go thru all the political stress there? Move to Serbia or Russia if u feel closer there in regards to ur political views! Of course u won't because it is easy to talk from the comfort of ur house in england rather than the depths of powerty in Russia. They got a name for ur kind. Doublestander.
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@StanWelner.....YUGOSLAVIA WAS THE ONLY COMMUNIST COUNTRY IN EUROPE DURING THE COLD WAR THAT WAS NOT IN WARSAW PACT. GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT AND LEARN THE HISTORY. AS A MATTER OF FACT, WE WERE CLOSE ALLIES OF US AND COULD TRAVEL TO US WITHOUT ANY VISAS.
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@ pennsyltucky....we can go back and forth here as far as who is to blame. Both sides did bad things. However, currently, you can drive a car in Serbia with Croatian plates and nothing happens. You do that in Croatia with Serbian plates and you are due to have windows broken, cars tossed in Adriatic, etc. Things like that are all over....from Dubrovnik, Split, and all the way to Zagreb. Remember the game Hajduk - Partizan, before the war even broke out? You burned the country flag. Croatians were causing chaos and Serbian communities in Croatia were left unprotected. They went trough hell before Yugoslavian military even acted on it. That was before the war broke out and no one did anything bad to one another yet. The president at that time was a Croat...the president of Yugoslavia...above Milosevic; Stipe Mesic. Now, I would not think of it as an Serbian aggression. I am looking at it as Milosevic stepping in, since Mesic wasn't doing anything. I am looking at it as government trying to protect national interest; the sovereign state of Yugoslavia. Unfortunately, other people got involved, things escalated and someone had to labeled bad.....hey, its the Serbia.
Here is a funny story. My uncle was in Bosnia war. Two fronts were there....Bosnia vs. Croatia and Serbia vs. Bosnia. He said that they accidentally captured the Bosnian soldier who said the following: "thank god the Croats did not catch me. They would have tortured me. At least, you Serbs will kill me." I really don't know what happened to him.
As far as referring to anyone as ultra-nationalists.....its not like Serbia wanted to separate from the Yugoslavia. It was Slovenians, then Croats, etc. Its those people that wanted to go separate. At that time, I do not know what was so bad that they wanted to separate? Please help me understand.
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@ yaasehshalom #67.....well said. Thanks for that. I think that Serbian people and Croat people, not to forget Bosnians, only think for themselves and blame others. And if you listen to any argument, you will always favor one over the other. Unfortunately, Serbia I think got the worst of it. Milosevice is gone; however, people of Serbia will pay for this with their life time. So will Croats too.
As far as Pennsyltucky, sorry if I misspelled it, I do not like when people say something like...."Serbs had camps and they raped women.....and we didn't"....for a fact, I know that your statement is not supported by any facts....just your opinion. I have friends who left Croatia. As a matter of fact, he is from Gospic. You should know where that is. They took his elderly mother, took her clothes off while her son was handcuffed to the water pipe. In front of his eyes, they were doing things that I will not be able to disclose in this message. Unfortunately, they left the old lady to live with that shame for the rest of the life. They did not kill the son either. My friend says that he wishes he was killed and not left to live with that memory forever.
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Pennysltucky - I agree about Seselj, I don't like him and I agree that was a terrible thing of him to say and even more terrible given what happened and the ideas he promoted. Thankfully he will hopefully be in jail soon.
As far as the Sudeten German stuff goes - it was understandable that the Czechs, Russians and Poles would have wanted to do that at the end of the war, but it does still not make it right.
And I don't think you can compare Serbia (or Croatia or Bosnia) to Nazi Germany. What happened in all three countries was terrible.
Of course Tudjman and Milosevic would probably not have got into power in any country under normal circumstances, so I don't think normal people should be blamed for this, but the actual political/economic situation at the time brought about by the collapse of communism and increasing tensions in Yugoslavia folowing Tito's death, etc, which had been exploited by nationalist politicians and deliberately stoked up ...
I just don't think that you can say that atrocities against Serbs were excusable given what "the serbs" were doing elsewhere? A serb nationalist could use the same logic for anything they did, and do. It's one thing to say that one side had the majority of the blame for what happened (I don't know if they did, but I mean that's one opinion) but another to excuse or try to justify atrocities from the other sides?
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Oh and Pennsyltucky - don't worry about the spelling. It's cool.
Take care ...
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@ pennsyltucky for #64.........
That was very powerful comment with a lot of statistics. I do not question everything that you wrote; at least not yet. Usually, people that post statistics usually state where they came from. Out of curiosity, can you please let me know where I would be able to witness such stats? I would appreciate it.
On the other hand, I know you probably have a lot of anger toward Serbia; perhaps you should. One thing you should not have is anger towards Serbians. I do not doubt Milosevic's propaganda. We cheered when he got captured.
The problem in Serbia is the Serbian Radical Party with Seselj on top. Even though he is still in Hague, he very much controls the party. They are the ones that I do not like. I am from Vojvodina, currently reside in LA. Over there, I did not have problem with any other nationalities and I do not think I ever witnessed anything. However, during the war in Croatia, all the refugees seemed to be shipped to our parts. This was orchestrated, and I am guessing here, by Seselj himself. This was done to "water down" the catholics in western/northern Backa and the Hungarians. Sudenly, Seselj's party became rulling party in Vojvodina. This did not make sence. I hated it. Finally, after recent election, they were literally embarassed there and Democratic party took rule. Now, I can see things getting back to normal.
The point I am trying to say is that Milosevic's outrages in Croatia and all over were long gone. The facts you bring out now seem to be toward Serbian people. I hope you still do not have hatred for us. One thing you have to understand is that in the war in Balkans, i feel, there were no angels. There were the bad guys and the worse. Wherever you want to classify yourself into; please be my guest.
You also made a comment about Serbian people coming back to Croatia; Krajina in particular. For your information, I have property in Korcula. I only had land which my family planned to build a house on. However, when the war started, we had to let it be. Meaning, we were waiting until the end to see if we can have it back. Croatia has to give back the old land; part of the whole EU deal I guess. Maybe, it just came from the kindness of their hearts. Anyways, there is a house on my property that no one in my family built. Now, because the house is on my land its mine. The problem arises that the person that built that house wont give it up. Once I reclaim the property, it will not sit well with the people on that island and basically I am not welcome; but I did not do anything wrong. It just seems because the fact I am Serb and even though the land was/is mine, the person that built the house has more right then me to live there. That hurts. You will not find that in Serbia. I think the mentality of Croats is one thing that many people fail to acknowledge. Yes, you can blame the 90s. However, it goes way back.
Do not forget the other thing as well. Belgrade was a capital of Yugoslavia. However, it was in Serbia. That would make Serbia have the upper hand. Would it be otherwise if Zagreb was the capital and Serbia tried to separate?
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@ pennsyltucky comment 55
I do not know why you dislike Yugoslavia. Back then, people lived a lot better, had higher standards and were free to travel anywhere they wanted. No other ex Yu state, besides Slovenia, can say they are doing better now. My family did practice religion and went to church. I do not know anyone who went to Ostrog. Back during Tito's days, you were worry free. You did have to make a little sacrifice. However, it was a small price to pay. Free health, paid vacations for an entire family, free apartments, ....etc. The list goes on.
Yes, Tito played both sides....very much indeed. All the politicians do that today. I credit him for that. Russians attempted to assassinate Tito many times......but he came back at Stalin saying..."if I wanted to assassinate you, it would have been done". He was strong, charming, very smart and witty........that is the leader that we miss on Balkans. With Croatia and Serbia going to the EU, we will be like Yugoslavia in the old days whether you like it or not. I think you have a lot of unjust hatred toward Serbia, Serbians and Yugoslavia for what it was. You can hate Milosevic, but do not hate me or any other Serbian for that matter. In every day lives, they are just like you. If I may guess, you are probably from above Zagreb area. Those are "hard core" Croatians...ultra nationalists. Dalmatians are more of an example how you Croats need to be. Please correct me if I am wrong
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JUST SO EVERYONE KNOWS....and this is simply out of anger for "only one way" opinions of pennsyltucky. They seem to be supported with facts. Yet, if so specific, name the source.
When Hitler marched into Yugoslavia, he passed trough Ljubljana, now capital of Slovenia, and people cheered and threw flowers at them. Then he went trough Zagreb, capital of Croatia, and people did the same. He did not even go to Belgrade until he knew that his bombers leveled the city....then he went trough. People can actually Google this and find photos.
During WWII, Ustashe (Croatian pro Nazi ultra-nationalist military) ran the only major concentration camp in former Yugoslavia. It was in Jasenovac, Croatia. PLEASE GOOGLE IT! A lot of Serbians, Jews, Gipsys and others died there. Chetnik groups, ultra-nationalist military from Serbia during WWII, worked along side Nazis on few occasions. However, they were not under the Nazi command and they fought Nazis more then they fought partizans. Get some things straight. You never talked about Ustashes crimes during the WWII....yet you had so much for Serbia. IF YOU ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THE HISTORY, AND MY SUGGESTION IS THAT YOU LEAVE IT WHERE IT IS, THEN TALK ABOUT CROATIA DURING THAT TIME.
Oh yeah, Tito was a Croat.
You mentioned that any party right now in Serbia is bad and that only good one is LDP with Cedomir Jovanovic? He has some great things to say...most, however, are just out of this world. He also has mob ties too.
I think you need to tone down a bit. I think that a lot of Serbian people share some of the same views that you do. However, you are burning a lot of bridges by coming out with some foul statements that happened probably before your lifetime without first hand experience.
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Mark:
The high price that he paid, was worth it....
Dennis Junior
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Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year all.
It is a bit late to make any contributions to this blog posted back in May but I will do it anyway and thanks to another late posting #78.
I do not live in the Balkans but originally come from there so it is close to my heart. I too feel robbed by the disintegration of Yugoslavia but that is history now, and for now. I hope that soon, and rather sooner than later most of the Balkans will be part of the EU and the history will remain just that. This should have happened after Tito's death but short-sighted politicians on all sides failed to see it or did not want to see it.
I did read the entire blog with great interest. I suspect all people have strong reasons for their opinions and I respect that. However I think we should let the past be past and look into the future. I wish to thank people like yaasehshalom and Stan Welner who tried to present a balanced view.
I hope some of the views get modified by the spirit of Christmas. We should all forgive if not forget. Let's not feed the monster that brought about those awful events.
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It is now well known that this election was rigged by the 'EU/US Consortium'. The very malleable Mr. Tadic was the right man for 'the West' to ensure that Serbia would shun Russia, disgard Kosovo gradually and prepare itself for Nato membership.
I believe that Serbia was the only obstacle for 'Greater Germany' in the latter's quest for domination in the Balkans and as a result, Serbia was subjected to a propaganda campaign that turned into an anti-serb psychosis in the western media.
It will be interesting when all the atrocities committed by NATO forces in the Balkans and especially in Kosovo i Metohija come to light. The connivances and sordid antics of operators from the US, UK and Greater Germany in Kosovo i Metohija since 1999 will be most shocking when they are exposed.
History really does repeat itself.
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