Serbia's nationalists take a knock
The corridors of the Radical party headquarters were filled with a thick fug of smoke, now so unfamiliar in most European political headquarters, as journalists and politicians puffed on their cigarettes and earnestly scribbled figures on pieces of paper.
A big bottle of champagne went into one office but acting leader Tomislav Nikolic was unsmiling as he marched from his office to talk to colleagues in another room.
Outside senior party members talked earnestly and grimaced. As you'll see from my previous post I was presuming the opinion polls were right and was expecting a radical victory.
But as I left the building to prepare for a live report, it was before any figures had been released but something didn't smell quite right.
Earlier in the day talking to people, I encounter fewer radical supporters than I expected, but put that down to a "Belgrade effect."
From the figures I have at the moment, it looks as though both of the parties that stood on a "Kosovo must stay ours and the EU must recognise that" have taken a knock and actually lost votes from last time round.
President Tadic's pro-European coalition seems to be the biggest overall party.
Of course that doesn't rule out his opponents forming a government in the end, but if this was a referendum on "East or West", the people seem to have voted for a European future.
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~29~RS~)
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I am glad they did. We now need to offer them a clear roadmap to EU accession. Once they see the advantages of no borders, one currency and a the backing of 500 million people they might even let go the idea that Kosovo has to be part of them. In fact, they could see how South Tyrol did it. South Tyrol was an integral part of Austria and now is Italy. Yet, Austrian culture is alive and thriving there, with German schools, TV and German as an official language.
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Oh, and fyi, Mark, According to WHO, Serbia is the European (and World, according to available data) leader in smoking. 40% of habitual smokers (not including "casual ones")
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Gheryando, your comments show that you have no understanding of Serbia whatsoever. Kosovo independence - big NO. President Tadic himself declared that if faced with the choice of EU vs. Kosovo (i.e. integrity of Serbia) he would choose integrity of Serbia. The only party that would swallow Kosovo's independence in exchange for "improved" relations with EU won 5.2% of votes. I think that Kosovo would become a "don't ask, don't tell" issue for EU-Serbian relations, especially since EU doesn't have a unified position.
How can Serbs see advantages of no borders, one currency etc. when since the fall of Milosevic we didn't see any significant obvious gesture of good will from Europe. Getting rid of visas would be an easy and obvious thing to do, but even that has frustratingly eluded us.
The story about idylic example of South Tyrol is just a hoax. Serbs from Croatia saw very well how Europe defends minority rights (not). Basque country and Northern Ireland are better examples of how ethnic issues in Europe end up. If the governments of Westen Europe are so keen on grantng independence, why don't they experiment on NI first? Are you going to say that society is not mature enough to live in multi-ethnic harmony? Why does Westminster have to meddle there? (I don't really expect an answer. It just clearly shows double standards.)
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Gheryando, you just cannot compare Italy with Kosovo. Kosovo is a black hole in the Balkans which is unable to sustain itself and will be fully funded and administered by the UN and the EU for the foreseeable future.
Even if the Serbs finally decide to let the rest of Kosovo go, they will never abandon their own countrymen in a state with a very uncertain future and a history of inter-communal clashes.
As regards support for Tadic, I do not see why anyone should be surprised. Serbs have always been a progressive and well-educated people and, despite their current difficulties, they have much better chances than anyone else in the area to fulfil the criteria for EU accession.
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in #1, Gheryando writes;
"South Tyrol was an integral part of Austria and now is Italy. Yet, Austrian culture is alive and thriving"
Oh yes, that seems ike a wonderful model;
Decades of brutal suppression and state intervention to promote Italian speaking immigration,
Insistance upon Italian language qualifications for even the most menial public service job,
Italian langauge requirements for University so harsh that most German speakers have to go to Austria for further education,
Instant rejection by the Italian parliament for any mention of self-determination or a referendum,
Years of neglect of the Ladin language until it's politically useful to marginalise the German speakers,
Apartheid at census time - one has to declare themselves of German- Italian- or Ladin- ethnicity in a compulsory question,
And then finally, EU meddling to create a 'Tyrol' administrative area which upsets all three peoples and both countries
If that's your idea of how Kosovo could 'work' then I pity all Serbs and Albanians
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Am I missing something here, more than 50% of Serbians voted against closer integration with the EU, so how has closer integration with the EU won. You do not need degree in mathematics to work that out.
If they are wise they will learn from experience of other countries and reject the undemocratic, unelected EU which cannot, does not want to and is unable to even bring its corrupt MEPs INTO LINE.
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If these results are true then I'm very pleased. Hopefully it will help to see an end to the kind of rubbish about serbia and eastern europe more generally, that we see in the media on a regular basis.
As for letting go of the idea that Kosovo has to be part of the country, I think we in the England would be quite unhappy if there had been civil war in the UK, and China and Russia and Iran bombed London because of the Iraq war and the humanitarian crisis it produced, killing thousands of people, and then occupied, say, Bradford or something, and declared it an "independent country" nine years later after a referendum held in a part of the country, with nobody else getting a say about it.
And if a few years previously, all the English residents living in Wales had been driven out of their homes, with Russia providing the support for the military operation, but this being completely ignored by everyone.
Not a perfect analogy I know - I'm fully aware of what the Serb forces did during the 1990s but think about it. Most people in serbia were not involved in atrocities and they also suffered alot. I dont like the nationalists but I can understand why people vote for them.
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'Hinglander,
Am I missing something here, more than 50% of Serbians voted against closer integration with the EU, so how has closer integration with the EU won. You do not need degree in mathematics to work that out.'
No, the majority of the Serbs are in favour of closer integration with the European Union. This election was about Kosovo and the European Union. The Nationalists don't reject possible European Union membership but they want the Union to recognise Kosovo as an integral part of Serbia before the start of negotiations. The Pro-European forces are also against the independence of Kosovo. They will negotiate about European Union membership anyway also if the majority of the memberstates of the Union recognises Kosovo as an independent state. It seems the Serbs have chosen for the last option.
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jaksap, g_rizzly and chrisboote,
Unfortunately, it seems as if you dont know what you are talking about. South Tyrol went through years of oppression but now enjoys one of the world's best autonomies, where ethnic groups don't shoot at each other. (Regarding forced immigration of Italians - the German speaking population is actually increasing) Nowadays, however, it is the perfect example of how situations like this should be solved.
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It will take a long time till Serbs come to terms over Kosovo independence.
I adventure to say this "national trauma" will heal some time in the future, say 2030, when Serbia and Kosovo will be inside the EU, with the Euro and Schengen.
Let's hope yesterday's elections is the first step for this healing process.
On the other hand, neither Northern Ireland nor Basconia or South Tyrol can be compared to Kosovo for well-known reasons.
However, Kosovo case can present parallelisms with other territories in Southeastern Europe borders, like Transnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia or Nagorno Karabaj. And here, let's admit it, the West can be easily accused of double standards.
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The results seem to be pretty much neck and neck.
As for the pro-European parties, only one of them, the LDP, recognises Kosovo's independence and its vote was well down on the last election due to its stance. They are viewed as being quite extreme. Nobody does except for them and they are so small that they do not make any difference. Tadic doesn't recognise Kosovo as an independent country, and I don't think that he'd want to join the EU if it was made conditional on recognising it - spain and many other countries don't. The democratic point of view is - supposedly - that Serbia will be better able to defend its sovereignty in the EU when they will be able to have more of an influence on what's happening there, not that it isn't an issue or that what's happening in Kosovo should just be ignored. They held elections in Kosovo which presumably the democratic party agreed to as well, which shows they consider it to still be part of Serbia and aren't willing to give it up.
Of course there is a double standard when it comes to Serbia and the comparison with Abkhazia is absolutely valid. What's happening in Abkhazia, is virtually the same situation as Kosovo, I have read what happened in the early 1990s, and I do not think Abkhazia deserves to be independent. It's ironic to see Nato harping on about Georgia's territorial integrity, but both powers, the West and Russia, are and have always been extremely expansionist and are just as bad as each other here.
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I think even the most pro-European Serbs could not understand why Europe and America had to create new borders (in Kosovo) on what is claimed to be the road towards no borders at all! The only explanation I can see is that there was no other way to tame the Kosovar Albanians who would otherwise take to arms.
I think it will take some time until wounds heal and Serbs realize that the territory of Kosovo is lost. But perhaps what matters most for Serbs is not the territory per se, it is the spiritual heritage, the sanctuaries, and the Serbian people living there.
Serbs are at ease having sanctuaries at friendly places abroad (Mount Athos). Kosovo is not quite the same though, for now. As for the spiritual heritage, this is something in the heart. It should be possible to detach it from the territory, with time. (I guess it is the same for Hungarians who have the heartland of their identity and culture in Transilvania, now in Romania.) As for the Serbs living in Kosovo, they MUST be allowed to participate fully in the society of the motherland.
History has perhaps created conflict-ridden places in the area (Kosovo, FYRO Macedonia, Moldova) precisely to let others go ahead without prejudice. I hope Serbian politicians will find the way of compromise now!
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>How can Serbs see advantages of no borders, one currency etc. when since the fall of Milosevic we didn't see any significant obvious gesture of good will from Europe.
You didn't see any gestures of goodwill towards Serbia? After all Serbia did?
One could claim that not having your nation ground to dust, and not being partitioned and occupied by victorious allies and not having your constitution rewritten by those allies was a pretty grand gesture from Europe.
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To Bernard VC:
WHAT Serbia did?
That is actually the real issue here. By reconising Kosovo and Metohia, EU is sending a very specific message to Serbia: "yes, we wanted that from the very beginning. We wanted to see Yugoslavia falling apart, we wanted to see Serbia falling apart. And no matter what you (Serbs) do it will be as we want it. No matter if it is democracy or dictatorship. No matter if it is Milosevic, Djindjic or Tadic. We will tear up your country as our Cezar from Washington wants us to do"
And what Serbs should think: "Yes we were right all this time, fighting in Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia.We weren't wrong, we are just defeated...but we will wait till proper moment ang get it back" So, that what Serbia DID was just struggle for national souveregnity, nothing more and nothing less.
Is THIS what you want?
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And, speaking about defeat...did you count tanks and aircrafts retrieving from Kosovo and Metohia in 1999?
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I am glad that the Radical Party (which traces its roots to the WWII Nazi-collaborationist Chetnik movement) lost the election; but we must not lose sight of the reality of Serbia's current political culture. The Serbian Radical Party makes the BNP and NDP look moderate, considering that the former do not openly claim neighboring states territory, nor are many their members responsible for war crimes, nor do any of their party members justify war crimes (at least openly).
Here we have a European state where nearly 30 percent of the population voted for a party of ultra-nationalists still being led by a war criminal (Vojislav Seselj) in absentia (The Hague War Crimes Tribunal). There is an elephant in the closet over in Serbia and it is the Serbian Radical Party. White glove treatment of irrational and unreasonable politics only leads to more obstinacy; the Milosevic era is proof positive of that.
I think the Tadic victory is a step in the right direction, but Serbia needs a reality check, and they need to come to terms with their past. Serbia should not and cannot get any special treatment and they should have the same exact standards as Croatia has had to for EU accession talks, no exceptions (therefore, the same extra criteria Croatia had to meet, must be met by Serbia, point for point, including the unconditional surrender of all indicted war criminals).
At the end of the day, the political and media establishment of the Republic of Serbia was the main reason for the violent break-up of Yugoslavia. Beginning with Milosevic's hysterical (and unfortunately, ongoing)campaign in 1987; systematic violations of the FROY Constitution; neo-apartheid rule of Kosovo; illegal/unconstitutional rescinding of Vojvodina/Kosovo's autonomy and denying Albanians basic civil rights (while simultaneously demanding more rights for Serbs in Croatia as well as 1/3 of Croatia and all of Bosnia Herzegovina even though they were a physical minority in 3/4 of the territories they claimed in both states); Milosevic's illegal arming of Serb paramilitaries in Croatia a full year before any non-communist political parties even formed (followed in Bosnia Herzegovina in 1990), etc. Lest not forget Serbs' (by that I mean Serb military and paramilitary forces) responsibility for over 90% of the atrocities in the former Yugoslavia.
The fact remains that only the Liberal Democratic Party has actually distanced itself politically and openly denounced from Milosevic's regime (nearly every single other party backed Milosevic until he capitulated to NATO over Kosovo) and the genocidal "Greater Serbia" ideology. They polled around 5%. I highly doubt anyone on the Continent would have considered negotiating EC treaties with Germany if the allies stopped at the Rhine and Hiter was overthrown by his fellow Nazis, and Germany was spared invasion, but there was no official break with or apology for the "Grossdeutchland" ideology and all of the crimes committed in its name by the German government.
I think that Serbia needs to come to terms with its past, as Germany was forced to, and it needs to apologize to its neighbors (victims) before any negotiations can begin. That is when Serb accession to the EU would be just, and acceptable to Southeastern Europe.
I also take issue with jaksap's comment above. In Croatia half of the Serb minority threw its lot in with Milosevic and ethnically cleansed over 250,000 Croats and non-Serbs from their ancestral homes (and "legally" banned their return), killed 10,000 civilians, maimed another 30,000, and raised well over 20,000 homes. After all of this, and Croatia's military victory, the Serbs could have faced the same fate as Sudeten or Prussian Germans in Poland: the right of no return let alone compensation. But Croatia magnanimously granted a blanket amnesty to Serbs who took part in Milosevic's aggression, and Serbs are returning, slowly yes, but surely. The Serbs' cultural institutions in Croatia are not funded by Serbian government or émigré groups, but by the Croatian government. The largest Serb political party, SDSS, is a key player
in the current coalition government, as it has been for nearly a decade. In fact, the first president of Croatia's first Sabor (Parliament) was an ethnic Serb, Milanka Opacic; who is still a major politician in Croatia. Croatia's problem, i.e., the problem for Croatians and Serbs who were in or on the border with former war zones, is that the war that Serbia waged by Milosevic destroyed 1/3 of all industry and infrastructure, and finances, not political policy or lack of goodwill, has hindered refugee returns in Croatia. Hopefully EU membership will encourage investment in Croatia, and the government can divert more funds to refugee returns and to infrastructure modernization. Once Croatia gets into the EU, Croatian Serbs' will solidify their political rights even further.
There has been no catharsis in Serbia as there was in Germany after WWII: the Radical Party's showing proves this. Serbia's government and the European Union need to stop dancing around the truth and admit Serbia's role as a state entity in a) Inciting hatred during peace b) Arming radicals incited by that hatred during peace c) Waging genocidal aggression in futile dreams of an ethnically pure "Greater Serbia."
That is when Serb accession to the EU will be acceptable and just, and encouraged by Croatia and neighboring states, and a normalization of state and interethnic relations can begin. An entire generation cannot just sweep its pain under the rug. Pretending a problem is not there does not make it go away: Chamberlain and Europe learned this the hard way. Let’s not make that same mistake, yet again.
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If the European Union didn't enterfere in the parliamentary election, in Serbia, there would be no problem, however, after proEuropean party of B.Tadich excluding Kosovo sign SSP, the DSS and Radical party,who were also in favor with Kosovo to join the European unity, despite that, they might now become oposition.
The question however is,how come that Serbian people chose the party, wich want without Kosovo to join European unity, insted one, whch were willing with the Kosovo to enter in the European union?
This guastion someone from European union should ansver, otherwise, on the Balkan peninsula,instead peace, war would never end.
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This meant, if European Union is using Serbian people for its political gain, in that case, they are violating human rights of the Serbian people...
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To "pennsyltucky"
That what you wrote seems quite interesting...for a good analyses in regard to domestic (SFRJ) law, international public law and international relations in general. It is obvious that you put a lot of efforts in your blog, but there are a lot of irregularrities and false facts.
False:
1. radicals are not equal to chetniks. Radical roots are coming from the Kingdom of Serbia. To remind you, Nikola Pasic who was politician who signed the unification of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians was radical. F- from history!
2. Seselj is not a war criminal, he is accused for spreading ideas which led to war crimes commited by certain people. According to basic principles of any law in the world, he is not guilty unless proven different . Except if ICTY is not a political court which "I clearly doubt". F- for your law science.
3. Comparing Croatia and Serbia: same criteria? So Serbia should expell national minority to the last person, if they don't want to live in Serbian state? FYI, dr Franjo Tudjman said once that "Serbs can take as much Croatian soil as much of it remains on they rubber-boots", and he did it. Do you remember Shime Djodan, Croatian parapolitician, in Split 1991: "There will be Croatian flag (shahovnica) waving on the top of Romania (mountain in the eastern Bosnia, inhabited mainly by Bosnian Serbs)And, yes, there was a war in Croatia. But don't you think that two sides were needed for that war. Why don't you mention ustasha extreme emmigration and weapon supplying of Croatian paramilitary. It wasn't against SFRJ Constitution? Croatian generousity? 1991-1992, Croatia was several times just one step before military breakdown. It never happen.
And, yes, Serbs are coming back to Croatia. That is OK, but that is for sure not an express of generousity, it is Croatian government dedication to fullfill EU criterions. Ask Serbs from Croatia. FYI again, Oliver Dulic, the president of Serbian parliament is Bunjevac (specific Croatian minority in Serbia).
4. Greater Serbia? How about Greater Albania? Nothing more to add in this regard. And don't mention the nations' right for selfdetermination, please. You mention denying of Albanians' basic human and political rights. Probably you mean the right to establishthe Republic of Kosovo ans Metohia and after that, using the right of secession to become independent. And when they were denied, to leave official institutions and form the parallel government underground?
5. Serbia and WWII Germany? Come on, please. There are some more states in the neighbourhood which should think more about the similarity with WWII Germany and with the puppet state from that time
The true facts:
1. Yes, there was nationalism, chauvinism and ethnic cleansing in Serbia and Serbia is heavily paying its debt. But it is very interesting and dangerous when yoy are accusing Serbia for all what happened in Bosnia and Croatia. Indirectly, you want to say that "Serbs are withdrawing to Serbia", "Serbs occupied Croatia for 400 yrs" meaning that original therritory for Serbs is Serbia only.
There is some truth that Serbia had greatest responsibility 1991-1999 but it comes from a simple fact that Serbia was the biggest federal unit in SFRJ.
At the end, I know that this is not so fruitful disscussion, especially as I see that you are probably coming from Croatia. I just wanted to point out that Serbia cannot be the only culprist for all of that what happened in the Balkans.
It is definitely not only Serbia who destroyed the common home of the South Slavs.
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Lt_Rinas
Well said.
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Good job Lt_Rinas!
You're right Pennsyltucky is either Croatian and one of the typical nationalist crazy ones that adore groups like Thompson, who sing lyrics of hate, nationalism and division, with attendees of their concerts wearing Ustasha soldier outfits and stand there giving the Nazi hail to the band. It's disgusting. Yes Ustasha ETHNICALLY CLEANSED SERBS you fools!!
Or, he's one of the idiots that has no mind of his/her own and believe everything that the CNN and BBC throw at them.
Not to mention I bet they believe everything that comes out of George Bush's mouth too.
Yeah the US is winning in Iraq alright - NOT!
Why don't people look google the Croatian terrorirists who used to place bombs on planes to Belgrade and elsewhere. Wait, here's a link: http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=18
And yes they mention CROATIAN TERRORISTS.
I'm not saying picking sides, either Croatian or Serbian is right. But lose the holier-than-though attitude because it takes two to tango.
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Hello mods,
How did my post break house rules? I see other posts here that have links to other sites, and use strong language???
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Hello mods,
what's your problem with my posts???
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I'm trying for several times to post. Is this working, mod?
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partII
But it seems that some visions of new theoreticians of international relations are really realistic: New Rome, new vassals, new provinces, new centurions....and, of course new barbarians. Well at the moment I have the feeling that somebody, i.e. Caesar wants to make Serbia the new barbarians, including Russia as well. Declaratively, the whole EU and USA are supporting Tadic but they are actually acting in opposite direction. So brutally supporting Albanians at Kosovo and Metohia leaves Tadic without any arguments to defend the closing to EU. EU means if they allow Serbian citizens to travel around without visa that they made a big thing? The matter is that EU would re-establish the basic human right for Serbian citizens...the freedom of movement which was denied for almost 20 yrs!!
But, there is a question: where is EU in this relation? I believe...the province
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Too long again, it seems:
partI
Thanks for support and I'm glad if I managed to put some fresh air in this discussion.
Actually, I wanted to point out some other facts regarding Serbia and EU issue.
EU has a problem with USA: USA liberated almost half of EU countries in WWII and they have to express unlimited gratitude for that, i.e. to comply with USA's interests. The other half took another boss after the previous one and, again needs to comply. (Serbia, and the rest of SFRJ didn't have that problem, but sometimes it seems that it wasn't so big advantage, it's rather disadvantage.)
In this regard, I'm just wondering if EU wants to have a kind of "black hole" in the middle of it.
It is not matter of nationalists in Serbia. If you compare programs of DP (Tadic) from one side and DPS, SRP (Kostunica, Nikolic-Seselj) the difference is only the sequence of priorities. Also, speaking about nationalism we may say that it is very positive attitude unless it goes to chauvinism. It is not only the USA who has the right to wave its flag wherever they want and where they are able to.
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part Ia
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Of course Serbia (or Croatia, or Bosnia) can't be compared to WWII era Germany. However, the treatment of these countries now can be compared perfectly.
The fact is that Germany was let into the forerunner of the EU, and in fact was one of it's two original founding members, FIVE YEARS AFTER WORLD WAR II took place. So please don't repeat this nonsense about how Serbia doesn't "deserve" to be in the EU. A country that behaved worse than almost any country in history was one of the founding members of the EU and the reason why the EU was set up in the first place - to promote trade and prevent a future war.
That is how you prevent war, you don't prevent it by treating people like they are worthless just because of where they are from because that will only create future nationalism. It is borne out by the fact that since that agreement between France and Germany was signed there hasn't been any more war between them, two countries that were absolutely bitter enemies for hundreds and hundreds of years.
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Lt. Rinas:
Your selective memory needs to be less selective. I received all A’s in my undergraduate and graduate history courses, and my concentration was Southeastern Europe ; - ) As for your Milosevic Propaganda Apparatus “History 101”:
1) Vojislav Seselj was named “Vojvoda Cetnickog Pokreta” by the war-criminal at large, Bishop Momcilo Djujic, in 1991 (Djujic was the leader of the genocidal fascist Chetnik movement in the Lika and Dalmatia regions of Croatia during WWII; he collaborated with not only the Italians and Germans, but also the Croatian Ustashas: he was treated in the Maksimir Military Hospital in Zagreb in December 1944 after being wounded in combat during the battle for Knin, where he was in command of over 1,500 Ustashas along with appx. 3,000 Chetniks). As for Nikola Pasic, he was an anti-democratic ultra-nationalist whose version of “unification” was nothing more than an imperialist occupation. His option won out, and the first Serbian imperial program began under the trappings of legality; a majority of Croatia’s industry was literally removed and shipped to Serbia, conversions to Serbian Orthodoxy was encouraged by law (because Catholics, Muslims, Protestants, and Jews were legally a lower caste in the eyes of the state) with land incentives to converts (reminiscent of the Ottoman occupation), Croatia’s parliament was banned, free press was banned, and Serb gendarmes fired into an unarmed crowd of Croatian demonstrators protesting the illegal occupation that was brought upon them by military force and by the suppression of a national referendum. Of course, this was just the beginning, Croatia’s most popular politician, Stjepan Radic, was assassinated in the Belgrade Parliament in 1927 by Punisa Racic (also a Radical) to cheers by Serb PM’s. The event was showered with praise by the government press (there was no free press). It was, as Svetozar Pribicevic, a Serb democrat and true humanist, a “shot against the Croatian people.”
2) Indeed, innocent until proven guilty, just as Julius Streicher was. Streicher was hung.
3) You argue a false dilemma, in addition to making an absurd unsubstantiated claim. Croatia did not expel all Serbs from Croatia (indeed, half of Croatia’s Serbs did not support the Milosevic-Seselj-Martic-Babic joint criminal enterprise, were on democratic Croatia’s territory, and are still there), but Serbs in areas of Croatia that they controlled (with “Yugoslav” National Army, later Army of “Yugoslavia” command, control, support, funding, arms, manpower, and intelligence) did ethnically cleanse 99.5% of ethnic Croats and non-Serbs; indeed the indictment (which was supported by the guilty verdict) of Babic and Martic mentions that Croatians and non-Serbs fell to .05% of their pre-war population in the Milosevic puppet-states of “Autonomous Serbian Districts.” You then switch to a red herring: the Serbs in “Krajina” a) Ethnically cleansed 99.05% of non-Serbs and permanently banned their return b) Attacked Croatia daily c) Demolished 1/3 of Croatia’s industry, infrastructure, and ended Croatia’s lucrative tourist industry d)Were threatening that Croatia would be “Everything north of Zagreb’s Cathedral.” As for your misquotes, you selectively omit the Serbian Radical Party leader, Vojislav Seselj’s various hate-speeches, including the infamous “We will dig the Croats’ eyes out with rusty spoons” speech in front of a crowd of 3,000 in Rakovica, a suburb of Belgrade; lest we forget Milosevic’s “We do not rule out force in the pursuit of our goals.” In addition to the preceding 5 years of hysterical state-run anti-Croatian (and anti-Bosnian/anti-Albanian) propaganda, Serbian government sponsored and funded (with funds embezzled from the Federal budget by Milosevic, of course) “meetings of truth” from 1988 to open Serb aggression, the illegal arming of radicalized (by state, Communist party, and shamefully, Serbian Orthodox Church propaganda) Serbs in the then Socialist Republic of Croatia a full year before any non-Communist Croatian political party formed, under the auspices of Serbs being “endangered,” during a time when Milosevic was centralizing Yugoslavia, and Serbs in the Socialist Republic of Croatia were 47.5% of the Communist Party of Croatia, 70% of the Police and 80% of the military stationed there, even though Serbs were less than 12% of Croatia’s population (they are six percent today). Lest we forget the ethnic cleansing of 250,000 (and banning of their return) Croats and non-Serbs, 10,000 civilians killed by Serb forces (appx. 400 elderly Croats from 1992 to the fall of “Krajina;” something “President” Babic admitted that Serbs “never investigated”), and the maiming of 30,000 Croatian civilians by bombs. As both Milan Babic and Milan Martic admitted to, they ordered the complete withdrawal of all Serb military, police, and civilians from the genocidal para-state of “Krajina.”
4) The comment you attribute to Tudjman was actually Stipe Mesic, who’s wife was and remains a Croatian Serb; the comment, which you cited out of context, was in the context of Serb militarism and aggression (hence rubber boots). You forget that Sime Djodan was pushed to the side by Tudjman because of his extremism (indeed, that very idiotic statement); as you forget that Vojislav Seselj told Serbs repeatedly at the Milosevic organized “meetings of truth” (years before Tudjman or Djodan were on the political scene) in addition to stating on national Yugoslav television in the Serbian parliament, that “Serbia’s western border will be Karlobag, Karlovac, and Virovitica;” basically, over 80 percent of Croatia and all of Bosnia Herzegovina. He won 27% of the Serb vote; Milosevic took 67%, which made 94% of voting Serbs in 1990-1992 pro-war and genocide (this of course is due to the state, political, media, and church propaganda). Lest we forget Dobrica Cosic’s (Serbian Acadamy of Arts and Sciences) offering of Croatia’s Istra and Dalmatia regions to Italy in 1986 in Il Tempo magazine (Italy). You mention the alleged “extreme Ustasha emigration and weapon supplying of Croatian paramilitary,” yet forget to mention the extreme Chetnik emigration and weapon supplying of Serb paramilitaries in Croatia, extremist WWII Nazi, Italian, and Ustasha collaborationist “blessing” of Vojislav “We will dig the Croats’ eyes out with rusty spoons” Seselj as the “Military Leader” of the new Chetniks, or the JNA, SDB Serbia, and KOS arming of Serbs in Croatia PRIOR to any non-communist parties in Croatia even forming, during the “Croatian Silence” which continued even 3 years into Milosevic’s anti-Croatian/anti-Slovenian/anti-Bosniak/anti-Albanian hate-speech and propaganda jihad. I certainly do not rule out that there were radicals in Croatia, but they polled around 7%, not 94%, as Milosevic and Seselj did combined in Serbia. Your “two to tango” argument is flawed; applying that “logic,” the Poles and Czechs are equally as guilty as the Germans during WWII. That is perverse. While the Serbs of Croatia acted just like Sudeten Germans (actually, worse), Croatia has magmanimously amnestied them and allowed/allows/encourages their return. Question, how many ethnic and political Croats served in Serbia’s parliament from 1989 until 2000? Also, Serbs aren’t the only ethnic group with problems returning, tens of thousands of Croats are still awaiting their return as well. The problem is the cost of the war on the economy and infrastructure, not political goodwill, as I pointed out. As for Croatia’s military being on the verge of breaking down, that is laughable. The only military that faced and actually had a breakdown was the Yugoslav Peoples Army and its proxy forces (which remained under its central command throughout the wars) in Croatia and Bosnia Herzegovina; that’s why Milosevic finally agreed to the UNPA in Croatia in 1992, because the losses of the YPA and the Serb paramilitaries were catastrophic and Croatia did not “fall in two weeks,” as the YPA Generals and Milosevic himself promised.
5) Greater Serbia and Greater Albania and Greater Croatia are illegitimate ultra-nationalist perversions/fantasies with no merit; Serbia actively pursued it via political and military means (in fact, Greater Serbia was and remains a constant theme of Seselj’s schizophrenic political rants). Are you insinuating that Kosovo will join Albania? You need to study the history of Albanians, as well as the Geg and Tosk rivalry. As for the parallel government; while you justify it in Croatia, you denounce it in Kosovo. Interesting. The reason the Albanians formed parallel institutions might have to do with the fact that after Milosevic’s crackdown, Albanians were purged from the police, civil service, media, and academia in Kosovo because they were Albanian (their “crime”)and replaced by Serbs. BTW, I was personally against Kosovo’s independence but Serb obstinance actually led to Kosovo’s independence. That is a reality.
6) Every state in continental Europe should think about WWII collaboration, because basically every European state had a collaboration regime and or group, Serbia and Croatia included, to the shame of both peoples. However, as the radical party polling shows, a good number of Serbs still would like to see an ethnically pure greater Serbia, while in Croatia the far right has a single representative in Croatia’s parliament.
The “True Facts” Section:
1) You may believe that, but I don’t. However, in both rhetoric and practice, the Serbs during Operation Storm did withdraw to Croatia; as did many Serbs before Tudjman was elected, because of Milosevic’s regime’s venomous propaganda, the violent actions of Serb radicals armed by the “defenders of Yugoslav socialism,” the Yugoslav People’s Army, and the reaction by Croatian radicals (which was a drop in the bucket compared to the aforementioned, it must be said) to Serb violence. It was the Serbs who, both in word and practice, pushed the “wherever there is a Serb grave, that is Serbia” and forced it down Croatia’s throat via bombs. Again, only half of Croatia’s Serbs did this; the other half was loyal to Croatia and logic and democratic change.
2) Responsibility comes from Milosevic’s propaganda apparatus, illegal centralization (and outright robbery of federal funds), illegal arming of Serb paramilitaries during a time of peace and Serb dominance in Federal and Republic (Croatia, Bosnia Herzegovina, where they were minorities) institutions outside of Serbia, the Rampart Plan which outlined the genocide and ethnic cleansing by Serb forces (authored by Serb General officers in the early 1980s, before Milosevic), and complicity and direct responsibility for 90% of war crimes committed in the Balkans between 1990 and 1999. The Greater Serbia ideology and politics that infected Serbia is responsible; once Serbs say this and distance themselves from this real change and reconciliation is possible.
3) It was not Serbia that destroyed the South Slav/Yugoslav idea (which was the intellectual nugget of Croatian intellectuals, FYI), but individual criminals and members of criminal ideological movements which mobilized masses via propaganda and threats and acts of violence Punisa Racic, Pasic, Petar Zivkovic, “King” Peter, Pavelic, Djujic, Djurisic, Mihajlovic, Tito, Milosevic, Seselj….
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Kristi Loves:
Your ad hominem attack is ridiculous and unfounded, first and foremost. Second, Ustashas ethnically cleansed Serbs, as Chetnicks ethnically cleansed Croats, Bosniaks, and Albanians. What is the difference between Thompson and say, Bajaga “Krajina Serbs, where will we go to slaughter, will we slaughter the Croats, or the Muslims; there will be slaughter, there will be slaughter, there will be rape, either Croats, either Croats, or the Muslims” Mali Knindja? Or Ceca Raznjatovic filling stadiums, singing ballads to her junkie street hoodlum turned Communist assassin, turned mafia-state paramilitary leader and genocide and ethnic cleansing operational commander husband Zeljko Raznjatovic Arkan? I see no difference between any of the aforementioned.
You attribute the acts of a few Croatian terrorists to the entire Croatian people (fallacy of composition), breaking blog rules by posting a link of course, with a link to a less than “reliable” source. Why don’t you break blog rules and post a link to the names of Croatian democratic activists liquidated by the Serb dominated UDBa, Yugoslavia’s Communist secret police, in Western Europe and North America from 1951 to 1991? Why link to PBS’s Srebrenica site and documentary? Why no citing of the New York Times article which reported that Serb forces were responsible for 90% of the atrocities committed in the Balkans in the 1990s? Don’t collectively attribute minority actions/reactions to the majority. That is racism.
I read and watch all sorts of news sources, do my research, and draw my conclusion; it is quite obvious you don’t.
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Serbian leaders, I mean real leaders not hypocrites or other corrupt opportunists, read this very carefully! Your real enemy are not former Yugoslav republics or Kosovo, rather the "capitalist devil" in disguise of democracy and freedoms. The corrupt devil aptly used your ethnic animosities as a cover and a pretext to meddle in former Yugoslavia's affairs solely to overthrow socialist system of government! Your political system was affront to capitalist sharks who are building a "Global Village" via economic globalization. They could not afford another Cuba in the middle of Europe!They were desperate to make sure that you became a part of their plan, not yours. Time is on Serbia's side, not the EU. With that in mind, do not reward those who bombed your beautiful land by joining them! If you do, they will congratulate themselves saying that their criminal act against you was a right policy and paid big dividends. EU needs Serbia more than Serbs need EU! I wish you all best, wait and see is the best policy right now. One more thing, do not under any circumstance betray those who defended the territorial integrity of former Yugoslavia and its constitution. It was army's duty to keep country together! The leaders of former Yugoslav republics, who reneged on the preambles of constitution that should be sent to Hague, in addition to those who conspired and attacked you!
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To maybe666's comment "The corrupt devil aptly used your ethnic animosities as a cover and a pretext to meddle in former Yugoslavia's affairs solely to overthrow socialist system of government!"
It was Slobodan Milosevic, not the BBC, Guardian, Der Speigel, Washington Post, New York Times, El Pais, or Le Figaro or the countries they reside in that stoked ethnic animosities in the former Yugoslavia, it was Slobodan Milosevic and Serbia's government, intellectual, and media apparatus. And the Serbs rewarded him with over a decade of power for his "job." Milosevic and greater Serbian nationalism destroyed Yugoslavia, not the West. The West simply regurgitated Milosevic's propaganda (and continues to do so) to minimalize the responsibility of Serbia with false analogies and guilt equivocations.
BTW, all of Western Europe are Socialist states, Democratic Socialist states. I presume you are agitating on behalf of Communist Socialist states. Communist Socialist states were toppled by the majority will of the people in Eastern Europe (the exceptions being the Serbs, Russians, Belorussians, and Moldavians). All are failed or failing states teetering towards fascism (case and point, Serbia). If you point to China as "evidence" of the wonders of Communist Socialism, look at a) Their human rights b) Media freedom c) Han cultural imperialism d) Capitalistic system controlled by the Communist party elites. In reality, China is a Han fascist empire in practice.
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But nobody mentions Kraijina and Franjo "I'm so glad my wife isn't a Jew or a Serb" Tudjman...ever. Croatian Serbs had every reason to see his dictatorship as Ustasha II.
A fear that was preyed upon by Milosevic and his followers, but nonetheless a legitimate fear given what hapened. Within a few weeks Tudjman's regime was printing coins with the Ustasha wartime leader's head on them!!!
They even went to the extent of creating dictionaries between the "Serb language" and the "Croatian language" even though it was exactly the same thing, and showing Serb-language films on the television with Croatian subtitles!! This isn't propaganda, I know this from someone who LIVED there.
I agree that Milosevic was a terrible man. But from the begining he was a "darling of the West" and very, very cosy with the British establishment. A lot of what happened would not have done so if it were not for the UK especially in the begining, and then the USA.
The Serbs weren't the only guilty country in the whole mess. And I would just like to see that recognised, instead the disproportionate attempts at "punishing" them which have not happened to any other country in the Balkans involved in this.
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"pennsyltucky" You are right about the Slobodan Milosevic. He made many bad moves that his enemies from within and abroad took advantage of! In my opinion, Milosevic was not aware that his every move was being closely monitored by the devil to build a viable pretext to bring him and his system of government down! Devil always blames his victims for the attack against them! Even if Milosevic gave into everything others asked from him, it would not satisfy devil or other enemies from abroad! His system of government was affront to capitalist sharks led by the devil, under the guise of freedoms and democracy! Devil's motto is "where there is a will - there is a way!" My way or highway!
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Pennsyltucky u sir are a conoseur of the Balkans. Thank you for enlightening the facts. What seems funny ,even though the facts are there they still talk about THE DEVIL FORCES. How brainwashed can someone be? Wow. I dont get that, unless u fully agree with what happened and embrace the killings or the old politics I dont see why someone, after reading ur comments/facts still blames the west. And if the majority of the serbs thinks this way u guys are a bunch of racists that act like the dog that got his teeth taken out. He wants to bite but all he can do now is bark.
I doubt the majority thinks this way though, but as i said we got you on a short leash. You act funny again and we will be there. Why? Cause as always, we rule the world.
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"Your political system was affront to capitalist sharks who are building a "Global Village" via economic globalization. They could not afford another Cuba in the middle of Europe!" [#36]
FYI Cuba (a GULAG next to Gitmo) is a diabetic sicky on its last legs, eaking out on massive remittances sent from Florida by those of its citizens who've been lucky to get to Florida Keys without drowning. Days of Castro regime are literally numbered.
"Time is on Serbia's side, not the EU"
You have about as much time to reform as Zimbabwe does.
---------------------------------------------------------------
WHOM GOD WANTS TO PUNISH HE FIRST DEPRIVES OF REASON
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#38
I take it you were never provided the entire statement by Tudjman.
Reporter: Rhetorically "Are you glad your wife is not Serb or Jewish?"
Tudjman: "I am glad my wife is neither Serb nor Jewish, because she could have perished in an Ustasha camp."
That puts a whole new light on the Politika and RTL misquote of Tudjman; which has become, unfortunately, an accepted myth in Western media and historiography.
As to printing WWII Ustasha collaborationists on Croatia's currency: false. I happen to collect currencies, and I have the Croatian Dinar and the Croatian Kuna (which was used in the middle-ages).
But your "rationale" is as follows: because of PERCIEVED fears (created by Milosevic's hysterical propaganda) of the WWII Ustashe after Tudjman's election victory (which was by a hair, not like the overwhelming victory Milosevic had with 67%, the Serbs had a right to "rebel" (i.e., ethnically cleanse all Croatians and non-Serbs, loot and burn their homes, apartments, businesses, etc., ban them from ever returning, and attack Croatia daily for five years).
Well, PRECEDING TUDJMAN (actually, the sole reason Tudjman ever could have won considering his non-status in Croatian politics), was a hysterical propaganda campaign by Serb and Federal media against Croats and Croatia, since 1985; "meetings of truth" 1987-1991 where Serbs, in addition to communist regalia and centralist/unitarist slogans, were brandishing WWII Nazi (and Ustasha) collaborationist Chetnik regalia and Slogans, open discussions of carving up Croatia territorially by Serbia's parliament, Serbs in the Federal government, and Serbian Communist Party of Croatia members, "spontaneous gatherings of the people," etc. etc. So Croatian fears are less important?
As for the language debate; I agree, they are basically the same language. Where the conflict arises from is that the Serb ultranationalists and Yugoslav communists centralist unitarists insist that it is either Serbian, or Serbo-Croatian; but never (God forbid) Croatian, or Croato-Serbian. This is cultural imperialism and chauvinism, and also, idiocy. By common consent, Croatia's literary tradition is richer and has been longer. Croatia preceded Serbia as a Kingdom: Croatia's Kingdom rose in 925 (it was a Duchy since 676), Serbia, as a Kingdom, arose in 1180. Croatia's language was codified a full hundred years before Serbia's. While they are similar, why insist that it is either one or the other (which is what the Yugoslav regime did), why if the Serbian variant is enforced by the Federal Government, it is multi-cultural and beautiful and socialism in action; while if the Croatian variant is pushed, it is, and I quote, "linguistic genocide"?
See my previous post above; your response with a misquote, a blatant falshood and an appeal to ignorance do not address any of the facts I provided.
Serbia needs a catharsis; enough excuses.
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Question:
Why was my post removed if I was citing the published texts of the Serbian Radical Party leadership (i.e., Vojislav "We will dig the Croats' eyes out with rusty spoons" Seselj and Tomislav "And Bijeljina is Serbia" Nikolic)? The inflammatory titles, however offensive, are relevant for the discussion since they are a crucial piece of evidence of the not ultra-nationalist, but openly racist and fascist agenda of the Serbian Radical Party. My post citing the titles should be restored. This is suppression of evidence relevant towards the blog discussion.
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Pennsyltucky - see my comment in reply to you on the other thread. I agree that Croatians also had a reason to fear from Serbia, but this does not excuse everything, I'm not saying that Tudjman was the only evil guy, but my point is that his crimes are hardly ever mentioned.
You would have to be pretty desperate, and frighened , to vote for a person like that and I obviously don't believe that Croataians just wanted to be "evil" for no reason.
The guy who told me this was acutally half Croatian himself and he sought asylum in the UK because he didn't want to fight in the Yugoslav army.
Like you I'm also disgusted at attempts to portray all Croatians as Nazis.
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