A European destiny for Serbia?
I've written this reflection on Serbia's place in the world after last Sunday's elections for the World Service version of From our Own Correspondent and it will be broadcast later today.
The stage is magnificent. A jumping riot of Technicolor neon dotted with the white silhouetted images of dancing girls. A singer is perched on a board carried by three muscled men. "Can we start?" she asks, "they are getting tired." The disembodied voice of the director booms back: "They are young, they are strong, they are Greek". But he relents and I get a preview of the catchy Greek entry to the Eurovision song contest.
I was watching the run-throughs for Eurovision in an auditorium in central Belgrade - as last year's winners, Serbia gets to host the contest here in a couple of weeks' time. It seemed a good place to be the day after Serbia had, according to its president, decisively voted for a European future, and rejected those parties which wanted Serbia to turn its face away from the West and towards Russia.
In fact, the result wasn't quite as conclusive as the president suggested hours after the polls had closed. About 48% of votes went to pro-European parties and about 48% for those which want to stop all talks until all EU countries declare Kosovo as part of Serbia, which is about as likely as Britain winning Eurovision.
The voice of the bodiless director booms out once more over the stage, "Bring on Russia". A young man in a white suit appears and croons a ballad while a dancer ice skates around him and another kicks a languid leg from the top of a short ladder. The symbolism is lost on me: perhaps "Better stuck at the top of a ladder than skating in ever decreasing circles on thin ice" is an old Russian proverb. Anyway their presence is a timely reminder that ambitious as the European Union is, Eurovision is even more expansive and inclusive.
The European Union certainly has what is known as enlargement fatigue, which sounds like a unfortunate side effect after taking those pills advertised in junk e-mails but is in fact a form of indigestion that the EU got after swallowing 10 new countries four years ago. But it was seen as a moral duty to take on board not only six former Communist states but three - Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia - which were actually part of the old Soviet Union.
But the EU is willing to undergo another bout of indigestion for the sake of the Balkans, haunted as it is by its failure to cope with the collapse of Yugoslavia and the horrific violence that it unleashed. Slovenia is already inside the EU's loving arms. Montenegro, Macedonia, Croatia and Kosovo are mustard keen to join. The European Union doesn't want Serbia to be the black hole in the Balkans.
But about half the population apparently want to turn instead to the East. It's not that odd, I reflected earlier in the week as I listened to music that will never make it to Eurovision. In one of the main churches of central Belgrade, three orthodox priests in shimmering gold and red robes sang the beautiful Mass. Serbs who look to Russia do not just do so out of a fit of pique against nations which recognised Kosovo - religion, alphabet and culture are linked. And as a young pro-European businessman pointed out, there's another reason people have for liking the Russians, as he said succinctly, "They didn't bomb this city. The EU and Nato did that."
It was a few months ago. while retreating behind UN lines of in front of angry Serbs marching through the ethnically-divided city of Mitrovitza to protest about the declaration of independence by Kosovo, that a Danish journalist reminded me that this link with Russia is cemented by admiration. She pointed out that after the death of Anna Karenina, her lover goes to join the Serbian cavalry. Russians see Serbs as dashingly romantic defending the frontier of THEIR civilisation.
So a Russian future would not be historically unlikely. But it won't happen. Strange as it may seem to those in Britain who see the EU as rather old-fashioned and not much to write home about, in Eastern Europe joining is seen both as a badge of modernity and a promise of prosperity.
But Kosovo remains a very real stumbling block. The pro-Europeans can only form a government with the support of the anti-European socialists, who happen to be the party that once had the dictator Slobodan Milosovic as its leader. He died in The Hague on trial for war crimes but the party still honour his memory and the current leaders say their main purpose in joining a government will be to stiffen the position that Kosovo is part of Serbia.
Few Serbian politicians will tell the awkward truth that whether it is sad, wrong, or against international law, Kosovo is not going to revert to Serbian ownership any time soon.
Unfortunately, back at Eurovision, the Serbs are not practising their entry so I don't actually get to hear it in the flesh, but the lyrics which could be a lament for a dead lover have some distinctly odd touches: "My wheat put me to sleep, wake me up on St Vitus' day". Terry Wogan may not spot it but a Serbian audience would recognise a heavily-coded reference to the battle of Kosovo in the Middle Ages, an event which looms very large in the Serb nationalists' consciousness. Maybe their entry should be accompanied by dancers stumbling around as if climbing a boulder-strewn path towards a European destiny?
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~29~RS~)
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"Danish journalist reminded me that this link with Russia is cemented by admiration. She pointed out that after the death of Anna Karenina, her lover goes to join the Serbian cavalry. "
Non sequitur. In at least a dozen romantic novels and movies a pained lover joins Foreign Legion. Which somehow does not translate into an admiration for France.
BTW How does your Danish journalist explain that after his father's death Hamlet does not join Fortynbras when he goes to fight in Poland? ;-)
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Serbia and Russia as well as the rest of Eastern European countries are inseparable parts of Europe and it is impossible to build united Europe without considering two opposite openions.
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VladislavM...are you sure that Serbia belongs to "Eastern Europe". I agree with the rest:-)
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I found the article very interesting and indeed as Serbian born who resides in the U.S. I certainly would like to see all of the ex-YU countries join EU. Hopefully this would once and forever bring peace and prosperity to the troubled Balkans. Kosovo is a sore point for everyone and I would not comment on it, however I have to comment on your interpretation of the lyrics of this year’s Serbian entry at the Eurovision Song Contest. You mentioned that reference to St. Vitus’ Day is a heavily-coded reference to the battle of Kosovo in the Middle Ages. Although some may find some truth to it, the transaltion of the lyrics into English is “Wake me up on St. Vitus’ day to see him once again”. This referes to an old Serbian tradition or a legend, when unmarried women wake up the morning of St. Vitus’ day, go to the river look into the water and supposedly see the face of the man they will be married to.
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I wouldn't trust Tolstoy's judgement of character, nor would I recommend Russia's political and economic model.
Serbia and the EU are understandably reluctant, but have no choice but to join forces eventually.
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A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. All that Mark Mardell is doing is spinning the British and US propaganda to justify the cynical breakup of Yugoslavia and the mindboggling bombing of Kosovo and Serbia. Independence of Kosovo makes sense only if you believe that the successive ethnic cleansing of Serbs in Kosovo, starting with Turks, then Hitler and Mussolini, followed by Tito and completed by the US and the EU makes sense. Russia, if it can get the majority (it doesn’t have to be a voting majority) can determine the outcome of this conflict. If they should decide to get US and NATO out of Kosovo and Bosnia, they have the capacity to do so. Unfortunately, this end game is yet to come.
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if they have any sense turn east away from the soviet eu
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I hope that Serbia becomes part of the European Community...
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"If they [Russia] should decide to get US and NATO out of Kosovo and Bosnia, they have the capacity to do so. Unfortunately, this end game is yet to come." [#6]
GO AHEAD! MAKE OUR DAY! :-)))
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Another piece from Mark with lots of insight.
What I don't understand is the remark that some people in the UK see the EU as "old fashioned".
The EU is a pretty unique and modern political concept whilst the UK is a country mired in anachronisms and bizarre political pageantry.
My own experience is that the average Briton large and by is clueless about the rest of Europe. Even worse: He/she just doesn’t want to know more about other cultures and the European project as such.
Of course, everyone is free to choose his or her level of comfortable ignorance. But please don't expect to be taken seriously.
The Balkans are an excellent example of the complexity of European history. The main mistakes were made when the Ottoman empire was dissolved by the Western powers. These mistakes are still causing enormous problems today. The only way forward is membership in the EU, even if this means heading into the unknown for both sides. But does anyone really believe that the standard British foreign policy concept of “divide and rule” will work when this concept has been the root cause of problems in the Balkans for the last 90 years?
It just doesn't make sense to over-simplify today's Europe, just to appease those British who are mentally stuck in the political world of the 19th century. Hats off to Mark who is constantly trying to open British minds to the realities of Europe.
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Serbia, with its great and hard history and culture, should be a part of Europe, commonly known as "Western Europe". The fact is that average Serbian state of mind is confused for many reasons. The EU with its decisions (Kosovo being the last) has been doing big favors to nationalists, so I am impressed that Tadic actually managed to outright pull 40% of the vote.
On the "brighter" side - Eurosong contest is a great display of kitsch and if my opinion counts - Serbian song "Oro" is terrible and just another yucky ethno-like melody. It may do well because other songs are no better.
I agree with Mr. Mardell - the UK will never win because Eurosong belongs to ex-Soviet and ex-Yugoslav SMS voters... Greetings from Serbia :))
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Its half-looking east mr mardell because You the UK along with Your Bosses Bombed them and Flattened the country in order to get more/closer to oil/gas reserves. Simple as that. You know, schoolboys' mistakes as in playing hard and strong too much are always punished later on in life.
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There are a lot of interesting questions raised in the comments before mine but the real question ought to be: Mark, why on Earth were you attending a Eurovision rehearsal??
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...I would like to comment from a slightly different perspective and that is to do with Serbia's good relations with the UK and other "Western" countries, until recently at least....Serbia declared war on Napolen for its Brittish ally, not that it made him quake in his boots but never the less shows alliances.
When the communists came to power after WW2 the Serbian royal fam. ran to the UK where it was welcomed and still remains.
There is a clear connection with the Eastern Bloc but Serbia/Yugoslavia is not wholly eastbound...
In addition to this an ambassador Veljko Micunovic was sent to the USSR in the 50's to try and stop Russia invading the former Yug. as it was threatening to do.
We already know what happened to other countries who dared to try and stand up to the Bear. So it was not all roses in the bloc
This is why the people are still 50-50 between the east and the west....it's been like that for a while...but i feel for young people there is only one direction.
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Interesting article, but author needs fact checker. Eight former Communist countries, not six, joined the EU - along with Malta and Cyprus - three years ago, and not four. The eight were: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary and Slovenia.
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First of all, this "famous" Eurovision is not about EU, it is not even about Europe. Israel is not part of EU and not part of Europe.
Mark, I find your comments politically motivated. This is just music competition with no importance whatsoever.
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As I said, Mark is playing on political card. Let's make this Eurovision night about politics too.
Let's make Olympic games about politics as well. What is next, Wimbledon.
He knows that Serbs don't need a lot to start talking about politics. That is the reason of his topic.
The west is "preaching" about democracy, and when half of population is looking at the side that the west doesn't like, then it is bad. Double standards, eh?
Serbia is not Eastern or Western Europe, Serbia is somewhere between, and it is normal to have this situation.
Come to Belgrade, nobody is going to ask you if you are "looking" at west or east. You will see that Belgrade is European city and you will have a great time. We are not perfect, we are not London or Paris and neither Moscow. We are Belgrade and everybody is welcomed as long as you don't "preach" about politics. Leave that to the politicians. :-)
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Gavrilo_Princip,
'This is no longer Stalin's, Gorbachev's, or Yeltsin's bow down Russia. This is Putin's Russia. A Russia Serbs should be proud to be allied with.'
Putin's Russia is an autocratic state who's influence is based on pipelines and bluff. Russia is interested in Serbia for one reason: geopolitics. When all Balkan states, Ukraine, Georgia, Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Belarus join the European Union nearly all gas/oil pipelines will be the Union's possession. Without these pipelines Russia's geopolitical power will be broken. Then they've no other choise then to ally with the European Union. That's why the Europeans want Serbia to join the Union and why Russians don't want Serbia to join. Maybe Russians like Serbian people but the state of Russia has geopolitical interests alone, just like all other states.
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To DutchNemo,
Back to the politics,
I always finding amusing when people start telling us that Russia is doing all of this just because of their "geopolitical" interest.
If the west loves us so much, so they bomb us, take part of our country away, "advise" us, then we don't need that kind of love.
What do you guys do to the ones that you really hate?
Just leave us alone, so we can find our own path in this "crazy" world. Maybe like we did after WW2. Not with Nato, not with Warsaw block.
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You're right, DutchNemo [#21].
And that's why putinesque Russia tries to regain control over Caspian Basin by surrepticiously destabilizing Azerbaijan, and (not so surrepticiously) subjugate Georgia.
Which, in case of the latter (through which a strategic Baku-Ceyhan pipeline runs), explains why Moscow, which vehemently opposes an independence for Kosovo, at the same time staunchly supports (and arms) separatists in Georgian Abkhazia and S. Ossetia. :-)
Re#22. There's not going to be any "Warsaw block" [Pact] again. Not if Poland has anything to say about it.
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If I were Serb, I would be very careful who I do businss with! Serbia should not reward those who bombed their country, solely, to overthrow their democratically elected government. EU and NATO need Serbia more than Serbia needs them! Thank you!
Does anyone, in Serbia, knows what the bombing was really all about?
I would stay put and take it easy for a while. It takes time to know the truth! What is the rush to join EU, anyway? They lie 24/7.
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What I can't accept is why everyone is so sure that the only way for all european nations (and probably their neighbours?) is to join EU? Why independent state is not possible in Europe anymore? Why all countries put by history between western Europe and Russia should be a satellite of one of them and not independent and in good relations with both? I've heard a lot of nice words about european integration, but in real life it looks for me similar to "hostile takeover" of smaller nations, when major nations get all valuable assets and poor natives get a chance to get away looking for jobs. Not very decent, but "they have no other options".
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1. If you (Serbs) are so hurt about what NATO/US/EU did to your country, how about the feelings of Kosovars, Bosnians and whoever else suffered from the Serbs? Don't you remember why the bombing started? Just be fair. Do the victims of the bombing of Serbia outnumber the Bosnian victims of Srebrenica?
2. Do you really need Kosovo with its 90% of ethnic Albanians (or Kosovars - you choose) to be happy and prosper? You know, in Europe almost everybody lost something - Brits lost Ireland, Germans lost Pommern, Poles lost Galicia, Hungarians lost Transylvania, Voyvodina ? ;-) ... the list is too long. So, perhaps you can get over it and turn towards the future, towards what really matters, I think?
3. Certainly, Russia is more different from "the Old West" than say Slovakia or Slovenia. But, is this a huge gap? In fact, if we take all civilizations of our World into account - Russia will appear very close to "the Old West". So does Serbia. At some point, Russia will join EU, with a mutual benefit, or we all will lose big. Thus, whether you now join EU or Russia, you will end up in EU, and Kosovo, too. And this is our best chance - yours, too.
good luck - biniol
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biniol, lets take it one step further back then.
comparing a civil war with three peoples in Bosnia to a Serbian Kosovo is silly.
two wrongs make a right?
I can play these games all day, take it further back..
after the Jewish, Serbs lost the most lives in concentration camps at the hands of Nazi Croat Ustashas..
Serbs were punished for 500 years by the Turks, forced conversaions, massacres, etc.
Serbs were punished with the NATO campaigns, Serbs were punished with butchering of Kosovo etc.
This is not the point. EU is modern colonization, Germany wins WW2 all over again. Hitler has won, destroying the Slavs like he called 'sub' human.
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We were bombed with a reason. OK.
How come nobody is bombing you for what you are doing right now in Iraq, Afghanistan, or what you did in Northern Ireland.
How come Falklands belong to UK? How come nobody bombed UK because of the war there?
Look what is going on with Isreal and Palestine. Where is justice there?
And then you come to us and tell us all that justice non-sense.
I don't like about EU that famous Bush's approach: "you are with us or against us".
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Gruenebaum1
How condescending you are to the average Briton!
How's this for the realities of the EU?...
* Fraud and corruption that makes the machinations of Westminster MP's resemble Noddy in Toyland,
* Interfering in all aspects of UK life such as the closure of Post Offices, the landfill question, immigration policies (or the lack of them),
* Accounts not signed off by the auditors,
* A undemocratic European Parliament operating as a rubber stamp, churning out regulations by the barrel loads, hyper-sensitive to criticism from within or without,and
* last but not least Mandelson and the Kinnocks!!!
If these are examples of a unique, modern political concept then we have no chance in a global economy!
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Let me tell you the "awkward truth" that whether that is something that you expect, hope, or believe, Kosovo is not going to be an independent country any time soon.
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"If they [Russia] should decide to get US and NATO out of Kosovo and Bosnia, they have the capacity to do so. Unfortunately, this end game is yet to come." [#6]
GO AHEAD! MAKE OUR DAY! :-))) "
Thus spaketh the illustrious victor of Vietnam, Iraq and latterly Afghanistan.
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but didn't Romania and Bulgaria also join the Eu.
If i'm right they are also communist countries?
forgive me if i'm wrong but living in romania for nearly a year...
So that would make it 10.
sorry just picking holes.
Also Serbia seems to be doing well. yeah maybe joining the eu would good for the country.
and if they do it wouldn't really matter if Kosovo is inderdenant or not. Because then all countries, over a period of time, become so together we can't tell them apart.
ho hum on to the beer
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Two things: Eurosong is more advertising and a bit of a show-off competition. We have seen how some countries vote and in whose favor. It seems to rotate year in and year out. As far as the political situation, and I have seen people coment on how nazis, Turks, former leaders used to terrorize us, some people here say that Russia was our friend trough all this time. Unfortunatelly for those people, while going trough Serbia and fighting off the Nazis, they also stole, raped Serbian women and even killed people. They unloaded bombs after Germany bombings over Serbia so they would not land with them. The only thing we have in common with Russia is our religion. Unfortunatelly, leaders after Tito turned to Russia and praised her which wore on people and led them to buy into saying "Mother Russia". Nonsence, we have very skilled, educated and relatively cheap labor.....every investors dream. Many companies can have a field day in Serbia, but they need the insurance which a pro Europe government will give them. People in Serbia do not know right from wrong anymore. Exhausted, they tend to think with their hearts as oppose to with their brains. Time will only tell.
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Some people here are going as far as saying that with help of Russia they can defeat the world. For everyone reading this, do not generalize Serbian people based on those sayings or comments. They are Ludacris. Russia actually wants our government to join the EU because of the following reasons: 1. They are buying our oil industry. 2. By joining the EU, they will be able to transport their oil to western Europe cheaper due to no taxes. Here is another thing, parties such as DSS and SRS (pro Russia) are funded by many tycoons in Serbia that got rich over night. Many of these things were illegal business. Tadic proclaimed that he will investigate many of their riches to see how they obtained it. Tycoons do not like this and will do anything to fund all parties going against Tadic at any price.
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And just so the whole world knows, Serbian people sold Kosovo. I never had any property or family from there and do not really by into the past all that much. However, many people from Kosovo used to sell their properties way before the conflict in '99 for the amounts that were unreal. Ethnic Albanians were offering two to three, if not even more in some cases, for Serbian properties. We were either stupid to see the intention behind it or greedy to sell our country for money. Its those same people that still have families in Kosovo talking about EU, NATO and USA taking it away from Serbia. WE SOLD IT MANY YEARS AGO. ITS OUR FAULT.
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The elephant in the Balkan room is undoubtedly Germany, and why any Serb would want to join a union that includes a country that has more-or-less surreptitiously been at war with Serbia for most of a century escapes me. Germany falling over itself to recognize Slovenia was both pathetic and obvious.
Of course the UK isn't without shame in this whole affair,either - but the ever-so-expedient support for muslim terrorists in Kosovo will come back and bite them, make no mistake.
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"Few Serbian politicians will tell the awkward truth that whether it is sad, wrong, or against international law, Kosovo is not going to revert to Serbian ownership any time soon."
But sooner than many would believe. Kosovo independence is just a "flavour of the day". Historical, legal, moral and all other facts will prevail when the time comes. Patience my friends ... patience.
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Goodfella021
The points you're making in #33 and #34 are indeed fact-based. Unfortunately few people know the facts and even less care to check them. And hardly any ever saw 60s Russian propaganda posters portraying Tito with vampire fangs and bloody ax in his hand as "The Butcher of the Balkans".
I guess it's mentally more comfortable to stick to one's illusions and live in the la-la land. Particularly if one is a fellow traveller or has been subjected for almost half a century to pro-Moscow socialist indoctrination.
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Can we, please, leave Serbia alone for one second and concentrate on the EU. European Community may have been a good idea but aren’t you just a bit fed up with it? I’m not going to point a finger, but don’t you think that there are SOME COUNTRIES that would’ve been better off outside the EU for the last 5-10 years? Immigration, unemployment, crime… Sure, I’m not talking about Eastern block countries that joined, but it will come there soon as well, don’t you worry.
I live in Serbia, but even if Serbia was now the leading country of the EU, I would still be a HUGE EU-SKEPTIC! Not from the Serbian but from European point of view. Bring on the free trade, by all means, but some nations are just not meant to live in the same state(EU). Look at Swedes and Romanians, for example. I’m not saying that one of them is the ‘better nation’, every nation has its own qualities, but they are SO strikingly different. Mix them together and it’s just possible that they will lose their best qualities. Make borders invisible when it comes to Art, Sport, Science, but not when it comes to terrorism, crime, prostitution, drug and weapon smuggling, etc.
Now, let’s get back to Serbia. I strongly believe that Serbia should stay well out of EU. Norway and Switzerland are not EU members, but somehow they manage to get by:) Romania and Bulgaria are members, but corruption and crime is still flourishing all over the place. If you can run your country properly then it doesn’t really matter whether you’re in or out of EU.
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Somewhere around 99% of people in Serbia haven't heard of Count Nicolay Rayevsky, Russion officer who joined Serbian army in war with Turks in 1976, who was a model for Vronski in Anna Karenina. There is a small church near the village of Adrovac in Morava valley, which marks the place of his death. This church was raised by his maternal aunt, not 'loving Serbian people'. Personal feelings of people (not only in Serbia) regarding politics are usually very shallow, so talking about the 'eternal struggle between East and West in Serbia' through these elections is total nonsense.
The large majority of the socialst voters are pro EU. Their VP, Branko Ruzic, said that he doesn't see Serbia outside EU. Are there anti-EU feelings in Serbia? Of course. Maybe the author thinks that Serbia should just take on any s**t that comes from EU (like stupid recognition of Kosovo, etc)
It is touching how the author marks Kosovo as 'country with clear EU future', but Serbia is still a dark spot in the Balkans. We could almost think that Kosovo is the beacon of democracy, equality among nations and religions and solid economic model.
Through number of Mr Mardell's blogs, I see that he has jsut scratched the subject he likes to write about but he is so far away from having a deeper insight in this matters.
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St. Vitus ?? Isn't he the patron saint of natural LSD ?? Famed for the "trips" named in his honour - St. Vitus' dance - when people in the Middle ages took to the streets after eating ergot infected wheat (and ingesting ergotinic acid, a precursor to LSD) !!
So are the Serbs going to float all the way to Russia in a Yellow Submarine or look for Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds ??
Perhaps the Serb entry to the Eurovision Song Contest will feature a psychedelic light show as well !!
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@#31 - Not to mention the Philippines when 10,000 US troops armed with modern rifles and Gatling guns failed to suppress spear wielding Moros and prompting Rudyard Kipling to write his famous poem - The White Man's Burden - and the ever-(mis)quoted phrase in it - "the savage wars of peace" !!
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@ishkandar:
St Vitus day in Gregorian calendar – 'Vidovdan' in Serbian, June the 28th , was the day on which Kosovo battle was fought back in 1389(and lost to Ottoman empire). I don't expect you to know this, but you should at very least try to refrain from posting malicious comments on topics you don't know much about. But, hay, most of the Europe doesn't know much about Balkans history but that doesn't prevent them from 'dancing on Serbian graves in Kosovo', sort of speak, so why should you be any different? Go ahead, have another go at Serbia and Serbs if it'll make you feel any better. See if I care!
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@biniol,
bombing of Serbia was wrong. Conventional truths and wisdoms are by-products of the mass-media world we live in... To remind you, the bombing of Serbia did not begin because of any "crimes" or "victims" but to "implement the peace plan from Rambouillet". Before 30,000 NATO bombs fell on Serbia, the conflict in Kosovo was by all means "a low intensity" conflict between Albanian rebels (who wanted to join Albania) and Serbian gov't forces. If that was Israel (Palestine) or Russia (Chechnya), would they have gotten bombed?
It was only upon failed disciplinary few days of bombing and after Serbian government (repeat: government, on its gov't territory) started a retaliatory campaign against Kosovar Albanians (which certainly was the most shameful and criminal act by Serbia), that NATO and its member-states' media started saying that "the goal of this war is to stop Serbian crimes and bring refugees home". Well, before the bombing, there were several questionable (read: criminal) Serb police actions and virtually no refugees.
I don't want to justify Serbia's actions, but things need to be sorted out.
History is written by the victors (and its media), so I find it indecent to impose these "truths" onto peoples of the Balkans who were on the receiving end of "justices" of all sorts. They ALL, Serbs very much included, have reasons to be angry and disappointed.
The West has major issues trying to justify giving Kosovo independence and, so to speak, "anything goes"... from ethics, morals, to divine justice. Any way you look at it, close to zero law, order or even-handedness.
Back to Eurovision... heard more songs today... Mere ear punishment.
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What is all the fuss about Serbia ? We are a small nation, on our knees, begging EU to let us in, but playing hard to get by hiding behind our "ally" Russia, who has let us down so many times in recent history. We'd be lucky to make it into the EU before we turn completely into some kind of Belarus. On our path to the EU we will hopefully gain more transparency and learn the truth about the 90's. I simply cannot believe that only we leased the truth while the rest of the world got it all wrong. Or perhaps this is the problem ?
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The Serbian elections, (for me a W. European) produced two amazing results. First we had the leader of a Serbian party and the "EU chief" from Slovenia oddly proclaiming that they had won,when the 3 opposing nationalist parties are going to form a government with a majority of elected members.
The second surprising result was that 39% of the electorate was prepared to back a party to join a grouping which has embargoed them, bombed them and recently gave away historic Serbia (or at least tried to) to a bunch of people , classified as criminals by all, elected by a Muslim electorate which is at least 40% unemployed, and which by all yardsticks is a failed territory.
This grouping to which they aspire to, has a GDP growth rate of around 1.5%, its industries , Jaguar, the former British Steel, etc now bought or moved over to China, India or whatever and is dependent on "services" rather than on manufacturing, which as everyone knows will evaporate into thin air in the first stages of an economic recession.
As if that wasn't bad enough the inept EU politicians have formulated legislation which suicidally encourages the Islamization of Europe where non-European Muslims parade, threaten, plot to kill and even bomb and kill and where tracts of the major cities is out of bounds to the indigenous population and to policing. A few examples: the head of the British Christian church wants Islamic law in Britain, Italian cities surrounded by "favelas",
Dutch artists knifed to death in full view of everyone, Marseilles Metro effectively out of bounds to French people, at least 100 Islamic groups in Britain, plotting to blow up buses, trains, stations - even Islamic doctors had a go-, in tiny Malta Africans now form 15% of the male 15-30 years population thanks to a system of oligarchic needs, patrol boats and politicians with a similar figure of Moros, a Swedish minister recently encouraged his countrymen to treat Moslems and Africans well so that in turn they will be treated well "when they become the majority". Do the Serbians want to join this entity where even now NATO (ie the Americans) are pushing the Asian Islamic Azerbaijanis and Turks into Europe. (The Turkish Prime Minister had loudly proclaimed that "the minarets are our bayonets")
Whilst everyone knows what a European is, and of course "we are all Europeans" Serbs who have been suffering at the hands of the US and Germans have a chance to profit from their historic, religious and kith and kin connection with Russia. Russia has been endowed with an amazing abundance of resources, a huge market and a GDP growth of 7-8% these last eight years. Western companies are now binding their pension funds to Russian GDP growth. Serbians, better placed than Western Europeans, should build on their own connections .
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@ Serbian bloggers
Please don't understand me wrong. I wish you well. However, unlike most of you I think that your best bet is to join EU. The choice is yours. Nobody will force you. Not me - that's for sure.
I understand your hurt feelings. Nevertheless, I think that it was your fault that the bombs fell on Serbia - after about 1 million of Kosovars were sent on the move by your men. The argument that the world does not fix every wrongdoing and thus should not fix this one is not valid. Turning things around I could say each country should have the right to built an A-bomb because some countries have built it. This is not valid either. Nobody is allowed to built an A-bomb and the fact that some have it does not justify me bilding my own bomb in my backyard.
Finally, putting emotions aside, can somebody tell me what do Serbians need Kosovo with its 90% Albanian population for? To get into trouble again? I honestly do not get this. Perhaps it is based purely on emotions. But then if I were you I would have tried to trade Kosovo for something more useful for the Serbs, in particular for the young Serbs.
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@biniol
I understand that lots of comments came your way, so you missed mine. I want to stress, and please prove me wrong, check BBC archives as well, that bombing of Serbia began as a punishment for Serbia's refusal to sign the so-called Rambouillet Peace Plan, which was an ultimatum allowing Kosovo to secede after three years.
To put things in order - bombs fell first, then the terrible exodus (expulsions) took place. Perhaps you could build your argument on facts, not on media spins.
I believe that bombing of Serbia was planned to be a short campaign with the expectation that Milosevic would budge quickly. Instead, he, on the one hand, respected Serbian constitution and defended the country, and on another, started a vicious campaign against his own citizens of Albanian ethnicity.
To give credibility and justify NATO's actions by mixing facts is, as I stated, an insult not only to the Serbs, but to logic. If one thinks that Serbia deserved bombs for not signing Rambouillet ultimatum, then that should be stated. I don't see or hear a single politician or commentator stating that and in 1999 it was an easy thing to say. Ask Mr. Solana.
Cheers
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OK, so when it comes to bombing INNOCENT Serbian children you, like so many others, just pull out Srebrenica and everything is allowed, innit? Well, let me ask you my friend, do you know who Sheikh Mohammed, Khalid al Mihdhar and Nawaf al Hazm are? They fought on the side of Bosnian Muslims during Bosnia CIVIL war. Funny thing is - they were not from Bosnia. They were not even from Europe, they were from Saudi Arabia and Egypt. In fact, they were mujahedeen fighters, fighting for Islam in Europe. Now, do you know how many Serbian men, women and children THEY slaughtered? You probably don't. But I bet you know that they killed some 3000 INOCENT Americans in seconds. Yes my friend, these same 'Bosnian freedom fighters' slammed themselves into the World Trade Centre on September the 11th(9/11 OFFICIAL REPORT, I'm sure you'll have no trouble finding it on the internet, if you really want to know).
It's easy for you to blame the Serbs for everything. And it's not even your fault, you simply don't know the whole story, you only know one side of it. But maybe if some other people, much more important then you or me, actually paid attention to what was going on on the ground instead of endlessly blaming Serbs for everything, maybe, just maybe, 9/11 would have never happened.
Take care mate.
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Just to clarify: my previous post(#49) is response to posts made by user - biniol.
(TO MODERATORS: if you can just ad text '@biniol' at the very beginning of my previous post you may disregard this message. Thank you)
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What on earth does this have to do with Islam and Muslims? It has nothing to do with that at all. The fact that most Albanians are Muslim is completely irrelevant and has nothing to do with anything!
Most Muslim states have not recognised the so-called "independence" of Kosovo and do not plan to do so, so don't try and make this into a clash of civilisations between Islam and the West!
The Kosovo politicians have no power. They can be dismissed at will by the EU and Nato bureaucrats who REALLY run the country. This isn't independence, it is a protectorate - the only sense in which Kosovo is "independent" now is from Belgrade and even then they still didn't manage to stop the Serbs holding elections there! I cannot believe that people think it is an independent country like any other - has anyone read the constitution and the "declaration of indepedence" here? It is all about the EU and wanting to be part of the EU ... but what happened if most people in Kosovo didn't want to join it, well they wouldn't get a choice!
This isn't about Islam. This is about a sovereign state having fifteen percent of its territory basically stolen! No matter what a country has done in the past, and I agree that Serbia has a LOT to answer for, no country deserves that and that should never happen to anyone! Especially not when the Serbs in the Krajina who were expelled from their homes with US backing in Operation Storm weren't given the same rights! Serbs were also the victims in the 1990s wars but nobody wants to realise it, the way it is depicted in the media is that they were guilty of everything.
How would we feel if Iran and China decided to bomb the UK because of what we were doing in Iraq, and then invaded somewhere like Leeds and declared it an independent country, and all the English people there suddenly found themselves living in tiny areas in the "country", unable to get from place to place, with almost no rights at all!
And the same people who would have us believe that Serbs are the root of all evil in the Balkans are now attempting to depict the Arab world and Iran in the same light as the Serbs - as if they are evil and "irrational" and as if they want to kill people for no reason!! How can people listen to such propaganda?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
(I'm a Serb)
Mark as other westerners likes to see only Serbian faults. A current situation in Serbia is product of many internal problems (conflicts?) and wrong doings. However the great share of responsibility is on the West.
Actually the roots of our problems aren’t only inside us but in the West. The western part of the problem stays on the West even after the ‘solution’ of ‘our’ problem. If you don’t trust let me remind you.
Nine years ago NATO attacked us. If you think it was only because of suffering of poor Albanians you are wrong. That bombing showed in full extend Americans jingoism, belief in supremacy and power of weapon (as a militarist solution of world problems), readiness to use false data to direct public opinion whatever they like and of course, bypassing UN.
Americans `won` the Kosovo war but four years after ...
The EU is acting in the same way. It put all of blame on Serbia and never accepts its own involvement in the Serbians reality. Maybe EU will win Serbia this time but this EU policy isn’t that one that would lead all of us (Europeans) to the brighter future.
About Russia: we have very harmonious relations with Russia for centuries until 1948 (Tito –Stalin conflict). From then on the West has been trying to play us on Russia and they have some success. Our cooperation with Russia is unbelievably low and considerable minority in Serbian population has opinion similar to commentator Goodfella021 (post #34).
Russia is just trying to correct this and not to move us from EU path.
Pro-Russian Serbian government doesn’t mean poor relation with EU but pro-Western does mean worsening relation with Russia.
It seems that EU is going toward Russophobia.
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BackintheEUssr, how could you be so patronising to the EU when your user name suggests it is somewhat like the USSR? People who lived in the former USSR lived in fear under the tyranny of an oppressive regime. Millions murdered by execution, torture and man made famines if they didn't toe the line. Unable to travel, distrust within their own communities, sovereign countries forcefully governed by Moscow. Having lived on both sides of the Iron Curtain I can safely inform you neither political systems are related in any shape or form.
The EU has given peace to Europe that was endlessly in conflict and we are given freedom to move and trade. I hope Serbia finds it's way as well as all the other Balkan States.
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Serbia's destiny is inside the EU, as the central nation in the Balkans, where all other neighbouring states are already in or will eventually be in.
The historical Serbo-Russian links are not an obstacle for the EU accession. The EU new member Bulgaria has also a historical link with "mother Russia". On the contrary, EU can take advantage of it in the benefit for everybody.
There's not either any radical division between West and Russia. Many Russian intellectuals and artists take an essential part in the so-called Western civilisation.
Where some people see barriers and fears, let's name it: xenophobia or mere ignorance; others find an opportunity to become more, stronger and better.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I read some of your comments and I can't stop laughing. You people still think "Mother Russia" is so great? Let me remind you of the facts.
1-MOTHER RUSSIA LOST THE COLD WAR
2-MOTHER RUSSIA'S SOCIALIST ECONOMIC SYSTEM FAILED AND THEY MISSERABLY FAILED TO HELP THEIR PEOPLE WHO TODAY ARE EMIGRATING ALL OVER THE WEST TO PROVIDE FOOD AND FUTURE FOR THEIR KIDS.
3- MOTHER RUSSIA'S ARMY DISINTEGRATED AND NOONE IS LISTENING TO MOTHER RUSSIA ANYMORE AS THEIR INFLUENCE AROUND THE WORLD IS DEMINISHIND DAY BY DAY. SEE THE BREAK-OF OF THE EX RUSSIAN REPUBLICS WHO NOW EMBRACE THE WEST. AND IF THAT IS NOT ENOUGH SEE SERBIA.
If anyone should think that by attaching your country to Mother Russia then I suggest; stay with Mother Russia and EAT GRASS FOR THE REST OF YOUR DAYS as u have done until now.
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When I wrote "mother Russia" was with a paralinguistic intention: that is how Russia is referred by some Slavic Orthodox countries like Belarus, Ukrainia, Serbia or Bulgaria, from a historic point of view.
Russia has a huge deficit in democracy and her foreign policy can be considered as expansionist. But I don't think the best way to help Russians and ourselves is by isolating them.
No one here denies the responsability of Serbian government and army in the nineties Balkans massacre. But it is unfair to take the whole Serbian people to blame for it.
Moreover, Serbs are not the only people who provoked this carnage. Although Serbs started the wars, other nationalities were also involved in atrocities.
So, let's face the future and leave the penal responsabilities for the tribunals which are charging individuals, no nations.
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Oh dear.
Dorand V, are you aware of why, and how the EU started, and which country was one of it's first members? Its original name was the Coal and Steel Community, and it was proposed in 1950, as a way to prevent wars in Europe between France and Germany.
According to your logic the whole EU should not exist then, since one of its two original members was a country, which had just been involved in a mass industrialised genocide of over twelve million people, including gypsies and Serbs and other Slavic People as well as Jews, supported by many, although not all of the population, and occupied most of Europe. All this happened less than five years previously.
Now if Germany can be in the EU and in fact be one of its founding members in 1950, less than five years after the war was over, surely any country in Europe can be in it as well as long as it fits the right criteria?
Or do you just want to punish Serbia for things that happened several years ago and which most of it's people, just like most German people are NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR.
Surely with Serbia in the EU, a block of countries with common trade interests, which since 1950 up to this date have not been at war with each other, it will improve it's economy and make war less likely between it and anyone else, so it would make sense to let them be part of it from your point of view as well.
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As for the people the Serbs killed.
SOME serbs have done some terrible things and I do not aim to be an apologist for them or say that what they did didn't actually happen. It did and I don't condone it!
But no country in the Balkans is innocent after the events of the last 20 years - not one side. Not one - what about Croatia, a country that is going to be let into the EU in a few years - Isn't what happened in Operation Storm just as bad as what the Serbs did. Something which was done, may I remind you, with the support of Nato and the USA. Why is there a problem with letting Serbia in the EU and not this country?
What about what we, an EU member, are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan? Four million people have been made homeless in this war - should we be thrown out of the EU for participating in it?
Serbia has a LOT to answer for don't get me wrong! But it also needs to be recognised that innocent Serb people have also suffered and I find it is absolutely terrible how some people find it acceptable in the mainstream media to completely demonise and portray ALL of them as being evil!
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Dorand_v don't be like that. You're aware of the recession just starting to hit us removing bubbles from bank credits, credit cards, property, jobs etc. Indians, Chinese, Arabs buying up prestigious car factories, steel plants in Europe and the States... Middle Eastern oil exporters apparently insisting that Europe accept millions of Somalis, Egyptians, Moroccans and to build thousands of mosques. And I'm sure with reference to American and British banks you've heard of the saying "It's either Shanghai, Dubai,Mumbai or Good-Bye"
It's not edifying is it? Well Russia can help because it's being flooded with money. 7-8% annual growth, 8% budget surplus, third country in reserves.
And Serbs are in a better position to take advantage of this without giving up the right to be treated as the fulcrum of the Balkans.
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"Well Russia can help because it's being flooded with money. 7-8% annual growth, 8% budget surplus, third country in reserves." [#61]
Have you been to Russia...lately?
And I don't mean Moscow and St. Petersburg (still in Leningrad Oblast where a monument of Stalin has been recently erected), but Norilsk, Magnitogorsk, Vorkuta, Magadan, Nakhodka, Kamchatka, Sakhalin?
Have you seen how millions of Russian peasants and pensioners live in this monoculture which cannot produce even a decent car, let alone computer or a passenger plane?
Are you aware of epidemic proportions of AIDS, TB and alcoholism in Mother Russia?
Level of corruption in Russian Federation besting those in African bantustans?
Or an omnipotence of its murderous secrete police?
Do you know that its population is shrinking fast and that Chinese (mostly Manchurians) are simply walking in and resettling in the fast-emptying Russian South Eastern Siberia with total impunity, with Kremlin looking the other way rather than admitting its impotence vis-a-vis PRC?
Dream on, comrade, dream on.
After all, as V. I. Lenin stated: "Man cannot live without dreams".
P.S. Have to go: "GEORGIA on my mind".
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to be honest mark is just reiterrating what the whole british media under Rupert Murdock, whose character can be judged seperately, yay everyone thinks that serbs are ultra communist devils conspiring with russia against the west. well mark if you feel adequate to talk about these issues in debt, send me an e-mail. i suggets you to read a book "Rogue State" william blum. maybe it will change your perspective on particullar issues. or maybe even "Yugoslavia: a concise history" Leslie Benson. a friend of mine is a media student and i have a passion against people who are biased and uneducated, every article on this website states the same facts, yet you feel educated??
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A good deal of the responsibility for Russia's present state lies with the West and its policy of making "shock therapy" a condition for Russia recieving emergency loans, and its backing of the totally incompetent and power crazy drunk, Boris Yeltsin.
We can all be very proud of ourselves.
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Of course present state of Russia has nothing to with 8 years of iron-fist rule by power crazy but totally competent and completely sober KGB general called Vladimir Putin?
8 years of record revenues from oil/gas export and what to show for it?
Forget standard of living, but showing off 30-year old junk (incl. tubroprop 'strategic bombers') at Soviet-style May 9th military parade intended to instill fear in hearts of Mother Russia's enemies?
Chinese must have laugh their heads off.
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powermeerkat,
I've got two questions for you:
Are you, by any chance Polish?
Have YOU been to Russia lately?
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I'm not saying the present leaders don't have anything to do with the way Russia is. I'm not a great fan of Russian foreign policy, especially not towards Georgia. But it is a fact that the West have had a huge part to play in the whole sorry mess.
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Re #66
ad1 - no
ad 2- yes.
Now I have question: what does that have to do with a price of fish?
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@powermeerkat:
It's because of the winds.
I just noticed that you don't like Russia very much, that’s why I ask the two questions. No hard feelings, ah?
I don't have very strong feelings about Russia. I've never been to Russia. In fact, I won a free plane ticket to Moscow, but never used it. What can I tell you, I don't like Russian weather...
There is a third side to this Serbia - Russia/EU dilemma, you know. Some of us (Serbs) just don't have the stomach to beg for entry to the union that bombed us just decade ago, while we also don't appreciate Russia's 'help', as well. There were plenty of times in the last two decades when 'mother Russia' could have come to our assistance. They failed to do so EVERY SINGLE TIME. They did nothing to protect Serbs in Croatia, they did nothing to protect Serbs in Kosovo and they did nothing to prevent full scale aggression against Serbia committed by NATO in 1999.
I think of myself as a proud nationalist or, to be politically correct, proud patriot (it's the same thing really, but when you say you're 'nationalist' some people think you're Nazi (!) and when you say you're 'patriot' - well that's OK). This means that I love my country and my nation. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT I HATE EVERYONE ELSE! But, to be honest, I don't like much people who think that me and my children are responsible for something someone did in Bosnia, Croatia... And no, I don't think that Kardzic and Mladic should be arrested and handed over to the War Crime Tribunal, not before Clinton, Blair and the rest of the lot stand trial for bombing Serbian children, passenger trains, hospitals and TV stations. I mean, we already handed over OUR PRESIDENT. Its their turn now.
Take care mate...
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Re#69
1.I don't know how you got an idea that I don't like Russia. I don't like Moscow's historically imperial mindset and I am not in love with Russia's putinesqe regime and its policies. But then quite a few Russians (particularly younger and better educated ones) don't like it either; you may not know it because the most outspoken ones have been effectively silenced in the worst Soviet tradition (particularly independent investigative journalists and democratic opposition sympathisers/activists).
2. You should definitely visit Russia: it's a very interesting country full of huge contrasts. Also, in summer, weather can be quite pleasant even in Northern Siberia. You're just as likely to have a pleasant experience as an unpleasant one; meet some of the most obnoxious, xenophobic and unhelpful people, as some of the warmest, friendliest and most helpful ones. You'll find out that many so called Russians are not Russian at all, and that some don't even consider themselves Russian.
(particularly east of Urals). Also, you can't expect that most people (particularly older ones) will tell a perfect stranger what they honestly think, especially about their own government (many are simply too scared to speak their mind).
3. Most Russians don't take interest in Moscow policies (unless some Kremlin's decisions affect their daily lives directly) because they feel that they can't influence them anyway. [Bog vysoko, tsar daleko]
4. That's why it doesn't make sense to speak about "Mother Russia not helping Serbia' or "Russians liking Serbs". All important decisions, particularly geostrategic ones, are made by small clique currently occupying Kremlin without much imput from outsiders and much consideration for interest of other countries or even for interest of Russia itself. Personally, I think that Serbia/Kosovo is currently very low on Kremlin's priority list: it's attention is focused somewhere else.
[Now, where have I put this map of Georgia and its environs...]
5. IMHO Serbs don't have to 'beg' for EU membership. If Serbia meets basic requirements it'll be eventually admitted. It may take time, though: EU has swallowed to much (most recent admissions) and has to digest it before it reaches for another helping. Simple as that.
Good luck!
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It doesn't make any sense to include Serbia in EU so rapidly. Especially after all the difficulties they put in front of Turkey. With Cyprus EU made a big mistake ad they want to repeat that. I think Eu knows that if they admit Kosova in EU , Serbia will never be admitted because, not recognising an EU state blocks your membership. Similar to Turkey not recognising Cyprus. Apart from that unnecessary talk about who is more European as we can not omit the Turkish influence in the Balkans and the shaping of culture and common values mostly presented in Bosnia, Albania and Kosova, Serbia should reduce it is animosity towards minorities, increase their rights, clear their war crimes that are proven, and sort out their border disputes, fight corruption and poverty. Pus they will need to build mosques for their Muslim population not destroy them, if they really want to be multicultural. If Serbia can enter EU without these works done, EU will look more like a racist Christian club and definitely one with no ethics.
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Why did the conversation moved from Serbia to Mother Russia? Are they so closely attached? Dragisa I just read some more of your posts. Ur a nationalist? Why then do u write in Latin? Noone here is saying that your kids are responsible for what happend in the balkans( unless ur kids where over 18 and fought in the war) But you considering urself nacionalist and having radical views, how then can you not feel the weight of human lifes lost in the war given that the war started because nationalistic views? You comparing Clinton and Blair to
Kardzic and Mladic? Dragisa, ur insulting ur own intelligence. Sorry.
By the way the russians did not help you not because they did not wish to do so. They just could not. And remember China started talking against it too? But by "mistake" a bomb fell on their ambassy and they did shut up after that.
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Here is my take on the whole issue of supporting minority rights in Serbia. Why? What right does anyone have to build a non Serbian church in Serbia? Us Serbs have had very troubling relations with our neighbors. At what point can we say enough is enough. This is Serbia. If you don't like it then don't be here. My ancestors fought and died as Serbs. This means alot to me. How do I allow outsiders to influance what it means to be a Serb without dishonoring the sacrafices of my ancestors?
Us Serbs are hard headed. The lessons we learn we learn slow and on our own terms. But this is who we are. A proud culture that has had to deal with overbearing and aggressive Empires who sought to exploit and subjigate us.
We have our own idea of destiny. The only thing we are missing is a truly great leader. Someone who can make Serbia a shining beacon in the Balkans. Some one who can make us proud to be what we are while at the same time bringing peace to Serbia and it's neighbors. Someone worth looking up to not just by Serbs but by everyone. Somene who in nothing like Milosevic or his gangsters.
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I don't really believe in that eu dream.
Yugoslavia was a dream too, and my family and I paid huge price believing in it.
That's the reason why I am against Serbia joining eu. Just leave us alone so we can find our own path.
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At #73, manaskunk
"This is Serbia. If you don't like it then don't be here."
This kind of ill thinking has already harmed the integration of Kurds in Turkey and given rise to our biggest trouble today, the PKK terrorism. It will also not grant the Serbians anything constructive, certainly not a European destiny.
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You are right Aegeans, this kind of thinking is for the most part not good. But after all that has happened, in our distant past and the most recent past, I just have a very hard time accepting non Serbs.
I look at the past and I see a series of conflicts. Over and over again. I can't help but wonder if these conflicts would exists if we simply had a pure Serbian state.
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I don't agree with that at all manaskunk. I can understand why you might feel that way but it's never an answer to want a "ethnically pure country". It won't get rid of any underlying problems - like inequality - and will in fact create more suffering and hatred.
There are loads of people here who aren't Serbs but still don't have any kind of a problem with them and are actually quite sympathetic. Like me. That should tell you something, that foreigners are not all bad.
Take care mate.
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Splendid stuff, Mr Mardell - I think once Terry Wogan calls it a day, you should do the Eurovision gig, as you seem the only man alive who can understand the complex and baffling social history of Europe, and present it in a way which is interesting and understandable.
Who is your money on for the winner of the competition ? Although I now understand that they are having to introduce 'heats' to get into the final, so could be complex to predict...
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As for comparing Blair to Karadic and Mladic. These are extremely evil men and I agree there is no comparison. But to someone living in Serbia, I would guess that it is understandable that they would not understand why their war criminals would be deemed to be worse than everyone else's. I fully agree that Mladic and Karadic should be brought to justice and must be found immediately.
BUT.
What about the massacres in My Lai in Vietnam? When are we going to see anyone on trial for that in the Hague? Are they just going to grow old and die and never face justice? What about what the Israelis are doing in Palestine - backed up with trillions of dollars of US aid? What about the people who designed Guantanamo Bay and tortured people in it - surely that is a war crime?
When will we see these people on trial Dorand, when will they be hauled before a criminal tribunal and made to answer for the blood on their hands?
WHEN?
Blair took us to war without the public's consent. Not just once, but five times. He lied in order to take us to war in Iraq. He said that weapons of mass destruction existed in Iraq and his government knowingly used false intelligence to back it up. Do you call this democracy? We did not agree to any of it. Surely in a democracy the government would listen to the will of the people. The will of the people saying DO NOT GO TO WAR.
And about Serbia: Although there were certainly atrocities committed by Serbian forces against the Kosovo Albanians, once Nato started bombing the actions of Milosevic - who had been supported by the British government a few years previously, leaving the Bosniaks to completely get sold out - simply got worse and even worse, got more popular support because the Albanians had supposedly "incited it", but the bombing continued anyway despite almost everyone who had studied the situation on both sides, warning them NOT TO DO IT.
Nine years later in Kosovo Serbs are living under a form of apartheid IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY - Serbia. I've seen the pictures, of children standing in front of tanks, and the barbed wire. And it makes me sick, to think that we supposedly went in to protect the human rights of the Albanians and now the Serbs are living in terrible conditions, and the Albanian politicians have absolutely no power at all. They can be sacked and replaced by the EU and Nato at the drop of a hat. Have you heard about the refugee camps in Kosovo for the gypsies, which are contaminated with poison? What about the depeleted uranium - used to kill Serb children and Iraqis and Afghans?
In the Albanian part of Kosovo there is an enormous amount of unemployment and poverty, which is a perfect recipe for nationalism. Who has benefited? Well nobody it would seem, except America certainly has. They now have a huge military base called Camp Bondsteel and American companies have won enomous profits from the "reconstruction" of Kosovo.
And think about this:
How many people have Serbia killed, compared to America? Compared to Israel? Copared to the UK?
So who is the black hole of the world really?
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I'm not even gonna pretend that I understand what Karadzic and Mladic went through in Bosnia, fighting mujahideens from all over the world who were helped by NATO bombs, but I agree that they should answer for their crimes. I don't agree, however, that only Serbian Presidents, Generals and soldiers should be trialed and everyone else given a Nobel peace prize.
As for the Blair(if moderators will allow me): I despise him for his roll in killing and demonizing Serbs, but I HATE him for what he did to UK! I have a lot of friends in UK and I visit it frequently and I remember well pre-1997 UK. It was literally a DIFERENT COUNTRY. Sure, there were people complaining even back then, but just look at the Britain today! If you live in the UK you may not have noticed how your county have changed in last decade or so. You may chose to ignore the crime, ever-growing taxes, tensions among various local communities, but let me tell you, I now feel much more safer in Serbia then when visiting UK. And I hate that! I love UK. For me it represented a country of greatest freedom and democracy. That freedom had been abused and democracy misused. If for nothing else, Blair should be put on trial for what he turned Britain into.
Take care...
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I have read many of the comments on this subject .
Some people write of the EU as Utopia , the promised land , that every country in the vicinty must want to join . I am British , one of perhaps the majority of British people , who would like Britain to be outside , independent of the EU . Who hate it !!!
If Serbia wants to remain independent , why shouldn't it ; as are Norway and Switzerland . Why must the EU pressure them to join . So that Serbia can benefit from the gravy train and the corruption as other member states do .
I like comment No.80 , how Blair has ruined Britain . I supect your visits to Britain are to London or another big city . Get away into the country , you will find it not so changed there .
I am so thankful I no longer live in Britain or Europe any more . I now live far away in
" Developing " Thailand .
From a distance I look for the Downfall of the European Union .
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Here is one thing.....for all those Europeans that label Serbia "evil" for the things that happened during the war on Balkans, your mind is clouded by faded facts and propaganda. Yes propaganda...the same one that Milosevic used to make Serbs make decisions that were not BENEFICIAL for western powers. During the wars on Balkans, from Slovenia to Kosovo, one problem arises. At that time, Yugoslavia was a sovereign country. Its in its national interest to protect their borders. It was supposed to fight any group that threatened the stability. Slovenia wanted to detach from Yugoslavia......quickly, it was allowed. Slovenia served as an example to Croatia who followed. Now think what Kosovo will bring for the future. Its easy for these groups to call themselves freedom fighter. US/UN strategically pick who is the terorist group and who is the freedom group. "Oluja" was a "freedom fight" by Croats in the area where predominantly Serbs lived. Now, majority is Croat. If that is not ethnic cleansing then Kosovo was not either???? Look at Palestine and Israel. Palestine state was there for many, many years....so Hamas is terrorist organization? If I was a Palestinian, I would not want to be segregated in between the walls and stand in lines at checkpoints. I would support anyone who agrees with me. Dont blame Palestinians for that. Blame Israel. Where is a democracy in that? There is not. Its all about interests of powerful countries, and I am not excluding Russia from these statements, and whose side they want to take. Ultimatelly, they will be either "freedom fighters" or the terrorists. Sadly, it will not be them to decide their destiny; the groups that is. For that, KLA should have been labeled as a terrorist organization. US/UN/EU knew that. The majority of funds that sponsored paramilitary funding was from drugs (Heroin) and prostitution. It was even published in Wester European and US major print. However, KLA is labeled as "freedom fighters"???? COME ON PEOPLE. LETS NOT BE STUPID. WE ARE ALL PUPPETS AND YOUR VOICE IS ONLY ONE. IF I AM SERB, HE/SHE IS ALBANIAN, THE PERSON NEXT TO US IS AMERICAN, ETC.....WE ALL WANT THE SAME. PEACE AND SECURITY. DO NOT THINK THAT YOUR OPINION IS WHAT I NEED TO BELIEVE IN. ITS MY OPINION THAT YOU CAN CONSIDER WISELY BEFORE MAKING ANY STATEMENTS.
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Here is another thing.....everyone is talking about Karadzic and Mladic. I am almost certain that they had direct connections with Belgrade. However, I think they were acting out on their own and made decisions. If they followed decisions, they had nothing to be blamed for. I am afraid that they were the decision makers. For that, they should be held accountable. So, if they are held accountable, just like Milosevic was, then how come ex Croat president was not in Hague too? You cannot label Serbia bad and everyone else good; or the other side rather than Serbia good. People in Serbia want justice. However, the justice is not served if you expect Serbians to act against their will and not satisfy their demands. Why does the west then worry who Serbians are going to vote for. Haradinaj was acquitted by court because of not enough evidence? Major witnesses to his prosecutors were murdered or refused to testify.....including some Serbian officials. Plus, Kosovo press leaked information that was not allowed to the press that only benefited this criminal???? It does not work like that. War is a war. Unfortunately, we got the worst of it. Milosevic is out and dead. Serbian people learned to love him trough fear....when in all reality, they cheered when he died. During the war, it is very easy to see who is stealing and who is fighting for their land. Many people in Serbia over the 90s became filthy rich. Same deal is in Croatia and Bosnia too. Just look at Kosovo. These guys are filthy rich. These are the people who want disabled region....its all economical. Just like Iraq and no bid contracts. Balkans is just a little thing, the whole globalization is on much larger scale. If EUROPE DOES NOT LEARN TO RESPECT SERBIAN PEOPLE, AND NOT HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE THAT SERBIANS HATED DID, THAN I CAN CARE LESS WHAT EUROPE THINKS. EVERY MAN HAS ITS DIGNITY, DON'T TRY TO RUIN LITTLE DIGNITY A SERB HAS.
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Goodfellas - well said.
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AegeansArk wrote:
At #73, manaskunk
"This is Serbia. If you don't like it then don't be here."
Dude who do u think Serbia is? Atcually that is what happend. They did not like u and seperated from u. This is why u ended up with a quarter of the country that u had. All of ur postings here are so sad. It reminds me of the dog with no teeth that just barks put surely is not going to bite anyone no more because USA took they teeth out. Stop blaming everyone else and reflect to what u did. I know u r mad now but this is the reality. If u guys still belive on the eastern ideology, lol, than all I got to say is ask mother russia for help, but if u trying to addopt the western ideology stop the regresive thinking and move forward by addmiting to ur mistakes and not repeating them. And don't blame the USA for kicking ur ass that is what we do, we straighten things out and u happened to be playing with a game that belongs to us. We do the wars we controll that game. Why? Because we can. U tried it and see what happened. Lol. U got to have balls our size to do that and history showed that u did not have enough size. So be good boys and girls now and stfu.
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@ dorand_v.........let me tell you something. You are as ignorant as it can get. I live in the United States too, and I have not met anyone who is familiar with the history of the Balkans; besides what they saw on CNN which is not acceptable while engaging such conversation. Here is something for you: United States helped Bosnia during the war in Balkans in the '90s. Bosnia militia, and it was not military ether at the time, had mujahedeen as its fighters. Now, US knows of organizations and camps funded by Al Qaida within Bosnia. I kind of find that hard to believe that they did not know about that before. The key here is that they failed to acknowledge it at the time. It would contradict with their plans. If you are really American and do live there, then you should know that USofA is by far the most hypocritical and deceiving country in the whole world. Look at Israel and Palestine. Look at poor little Afghanistan. Don't you think that US should be in North Korea trying to help those people who, in my opinion, have it worse than those people murdered on the soccer stadium in Kabul. I think US picks its fights. I am not pissed at the world. I am pissed that right in front of my eyes, the world fails to understand that like Croatia, Bosnia, Ethnic Albanians and many others, suffered under Milosevic. However, Serbian people are paying for what he did and still do. We have this thing attached to us that makes people cringe when they find out I am a Serb. Thats not fair. Its unjust that someone thinks they can just become involved into something because they feel like their way is the best. Look at Iraq. Ironically, it was safer before US got there. Now the region is destabilized and its a safe haven for the so called "terrorists". Thats after over 4000 soldiers died. And how do you justify their lives by saying you made a mistake. You dont. You just make a mess even bigger. AND ABOUT KICKING OUR BUTTS, PLEASE DO THE RESEARCH....WHO IS THE ONLY COUNTRY EVER TO KNOCK DOWN A STEALTH FIGHTER WHILE IN COMBAT?...........SERBIA. CALL IT A LUCKY SHOT, BUT HEY, DONE DID!
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@ dorand_v ....you made also a comment...."U got to have balls our size to do that and history showed that u did not have enough size"....first, learn how to speak and write English. Second, balls that you (US) has???? Come on, little dog without the teeth that barks has balls. Otherwise, and you can call him stupid, would not do that. Your comment is as stupid as unsupported by any facts. For that, moderator should not allow people like yourself to even have any saying. Peace!
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Goodfella021
my comment was not personal u made urs personal and now u want the moderator to ban my posting? A little naive i think. Although u called me stupid and ignorant etc etc I am not going to request the moderator to ban ur postings as I believe on the freedom of speach. As far as u crying for afghanistan and north korea and iraq and iran and palestine and whomever I have to bring u back to my theory. War is our game anyone else trying to cut in gets they balls removed. Do u speak with a high pitched voice? As far as facts goes to the winners belongs the spoils. U live in the USA? And have oposite opinion in regards to USA. What a great country to let u live. I bet u if u were in serbia and was oposed to Slobodan they would have cut ur balls of.Lol. They downed one of our planes? HAHAHA yes and we cut they balls.
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Hello dorand_v....I did not report you to the moderator. No need; this is a blog and people respond to one another. Second, I am an American, just as much as anyone else that lives in this country. American is a dream and not a nationality. So, I am Serbian American, like some people are Mexican American, etc. The true Americans are Indians and they were almost killed and their land was taken. Then, democracy came. Geez.....I think the US is doing the same thing right now but not as obvious. And to respond to you, I do not feel I have to thank to anyone for letting me live here. I fulfilled the criteria and could not be rejected. Third, and I will repeat myself, you are ignorant.....and that is why America gets a bad name anywhere else in the world. You go preach democracy to everyone; human rights, freedom of speech, etc. and you go and do otherwise. You are saying...."we do what we want and you have no saying. If you have something to say, we don't care and we chop your balls off? For that the moderator should turn you off. I guarantee you that if I gave you a map, you would not be able to point out any countries that you mentioned in your last comment. And if you ever leave the US and go visit some foreign country, literally anywhere, go say out loud "US is the greatest country in the world" and see what happens to you. You would be suprised. Your biggest ally England or France, go do that there, the people there would have a field day.
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oh yeah, i forgot one thing....you are an idiot!
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LOL. Great posts Goodfella. He is somewhat mentally challenged isnt he.
Dorand - I have no intention of going to live in Russia, like you seem to think I do. I dislike Russian foreign policy, I dislike what they are doing to Georgia and Moldova intensely, the war in Chechnya (which was supported by the USA as part of the so-called war on terror) was a massacre. Don't assume that because I agree with the Serbs on this issue, that I agree with them, or with the Russians, on everything else.
How would you react if Serbia, or Iran, did something like, take a bit of Italy's territory under some agreement they made hundreds of years ago, and house their prisoners there. How would you react if Serbia built prisons in Eastern Europe or in the UK secretly, without anyones knowledge, and put people there they said were terrorists, and tortured them. You would be calling for them to be bombed, wouldn't you.
But America get away with this all the time and they also get away with much more. It has nothing to do with who's right, as your disgusting comments show. But who has the biggest bombs and high tech weaponry.
And remember this. If Slobodan Milosevic had been in power after 9/11, the Americans would have, in all likelihood, let him get away with everything he was doing to the Bosnians. As it is they let him (and Tudjman) get away with almost everything. It was innocent people on all sides who had to suffer.
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Goodfella u still have not replyed to my question. R u speaking with a high pitched voice? Ur a serbian american? Well noone is killing u here is it? Unlike the serbs killed the bosnian-jugoslav or croat-jugaslav or albanian-jugaslav people. U know what u r? U are a two faced prick that is what u r. As I said if u dont like it here go back to serbia. U r an ungreatful prick that does not deserve to call himself an american. Ur no american u just a little prick that we felt sorry for and gave the citizenship. Either u or ur dady came here in the USA and started crying so we gave u the citizenship cause we have a big heart and we can feed anyone.
Jew now to u. Remember if we weren't here, Hitler, after burning ur kind, he would have processed ur ashes to soap . REMEMBER THAT. We saved u and all we get is some ungreatful prick like urself talk against USA? What is so hard to understand?
SERBIA STARTED THE WAR and u know that because pencyltuck gave u the facts remember?and u agreed with them remember?
SERBIA kKILLED 1000S OF INNOCENT PEOPLE
SERIA IS PAYING NOW BECAUSE OF THE WAR THEY STARTED.
One more thing
SERBIA IS LOOKING FOR THEY BALLS WE CASTRATED FROM THEM.
Goodfella
What is so hard to understand? we cut ur balls of and if u do the same thing again we are comming back and do u again. Now u r smart and u can start using ur fake facts and stupid logic to justify massmurdering. Me i am straight forward. We say STAY PUT, WORK ,EAT, LIVE, But do not piss us off because we will come again. And u know what happens when we stop by. U don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Unbelievable.
The USA did not enter the war until 1941 by which time the Final Solution was well underway.
The second world war started in 1939 (Actually in 1937 when China was invaded and occupied by Japan). The Americans did not "save" the Jewish people by any stretch of the imagination. That would be why they were even considering entering the war on Germany's side, would it?
America played a lesser part in WWII than they like to think. I'm not saying that your involvement was not important, but Hitler's stupid invasion of Russia and the tremendous sacrifice made by people in the Soviet Union was even more important.
Russia did as did Hitler by his own stupidity. And don't forget a little thing called the RAF and the heroes of WWII either. It was not America who carried out most of the bombing raids against the Germans. It was the British.
The Serbs and the other Yugoslavian (and Albanian) partisans also played their part against the Nazis with little outside help and it is arguable that their involvement in that area "thanks" to Italy postponed Hitler's invasion of Russia for a couple of weeks, which was a deciding factor in whether Hitler won or not because in those few weeks Russia became substantially colder.
In 1941 Hitler bombed Belgrade, leading to the death of 17000 civilians in a single night. It was an absolutely pointless action, driven only by Hitler's hatred of Serbia.
About Pennsyltucky - I don't deny that Serbia has a lot to answer for, where have I said that. I am pretty sure that all of that stuff happened - I've heard some very depressing stories from a friend of mine who worked in Bosnia for the tribunal in the 1990s/early 2000s. But it seems as though Pennsyltucky is Croatian (I think?) so at least she knows quite a bit more about it than you do, and I do think that she has some interesting things to say, even if I don't agree with all of it.
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As for America being able to feed anyone? Are you mad, the country with one of the biggest levels of inequality between rich and poor in the world, the country where millions of Hispanic people now live in shanty towns, where people literally live in ghettoes, and many people are now dependent on food stamps? Last time I checked the UK and France and the rest of Europe were the ones who had a national healthcare service (wow, I mean, how shocking!) and you guys were becoming paranoid about the idea of universal healthcare being a communist plot.
And what does "SMD" mean? "Serbs must die"?
By the way, stop calling me "Jew". Are you anti-semitic, or something? Or do you wish that your "amazing" country didn't enter WWII at all? Your attitude to Serbs seems to suggest this, I mean after all they were one of the people Hitler considered "untermenschen".
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By the way, he mean Suck My ......and you know what D stood for.
Anyways, Dorand_v your problem is that you are ignorant and easily persuaded by what other people say. When I lived in Serbia nobody was trying to kill me. I did not run away from anyone. The reason why I came to the States might be completely different than what you might think. Second of all, based upon the way you carry yourself in this blog, United States should have more people like yaasehshalom and myself, then ignorant people like you.
America did not help us from Germans....Russians did. However, I am not greatful for that. We would have done it ourselves. Germans were on the run before Russians came. Serbia, for your information, is the only communist country in Europe that said no to Warsaw Pact. We liked the western ideology. Yet, at that time, communism was the best system for us. Yugoslavia used to be the kingdom of Slovenians, Croats and Serbs......as you see, there were no Macedonians, Montenegrians nor Bosnians. They really did not exist. Yet, after WWII, Tito gave them their states and I belive communism kept us together. As the Berlin wall fell, the Soviet Union fell, so did the Yugoslavia. Now, US played a huge roll in that. HUGE!
To answer your question, no, I am not "barking" with a high pitch voice. I am very calm as typing this knowing that there is no solution or anything I can do to solve your ignorance and stupidity. For that, I feel sorry for you as you are unable to see different points of view other people.
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Ah, yeah I can see how that would be GF, he does seem to have quite an obsession with genetalia doesn't he? :D
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Why do you keep speaking about people's genetalia dorand, is this some kind of weird anti-Serb fetish? I know what I would do if I hated Serbs, and that doesn't include writing millions of comments about their genitals on one of the most popular sites on the entire internet for people to read about. I would simply ignore them. If you seriously mean the stuff you are writing, and you probably do, I am sorry, but you have a problem - and a VERY serious problem at that.
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"America played a lesser part in WWII than they like to think. I'm not saying that your involvement was not important..."
Far from it, the Industrial powers in the USA were instrumental in a great many of the events that shaped the outcome of the war. They made a great many of the atrocities possible and also made a great deal of money in the process.
They field tested a great many patented products.
Dig a little deeper on the London Blitz... heres a hint: !aviation fuel!
Surprised?
They then bought up vast amounts of cheap real estate and banking interests at highly deflated prices. Their reparations.
The rescue and deportation of mass murderers from the conquered Nazi territories was of course a reaction to the fact that the Allies were never meant to win the second world war. As it was also a reaction against the new industrialised threat of Communism.
It delayed the Minuscule Minority's take over bid for another few decades.
Our only mistake is to assume the EU to be an alternative to this plan.
Softly softly.
America is however not to blame. Not even our eager friend, dorand_v. (forgive him if you can.)
Guess who?
The Minuscule Minority.
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@ need4reality.....what is "The Minuscule Minority"?
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Oh dear.
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And yes, I'm well aware of American companies' little "contribution" to the Axis Power's war/genocide effort ...
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no dorand_v anymore????? geez
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If I may ad, US was very much in race with Soviet Union to get as many Nazi scientists as possible. I believe the Nazis had plans for the atomic bomb; but that was sabotaged by the scientists. Nazis were going to win; jet engines, the rockets, etc. Hitlers only problem was that he should have picked one or the other. Russia or the western Europe....not both. Thats what killed him.....no more skilled fighters, little kids out there trying to fight, etc.....
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mark:
that is a great title, and it should happen; one day shortly...
--dennis junior--
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dennisjunior1 is a sad sad person
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Here I am again with nothing better to do but answer a late revival. What a blog! It is a shame that it got a little out of hand and too much personal so low marks for artistic performance.
There is so much to admire about dorand_v but the way he makes others lose control and their cool is absolutely remarkable. I can think of the nurse in the One Flew Over the Cuckoo Nest. Sorry I do not mean to be personal.
By the time I read through all the fascinating contributions I forgot what the blog was about. Ah yes, Eurovison song contest, well sort of. My nephew has a theory and it is called conspiracy. When Ukraine won I thought he was joking, when Serbia won I thought there may be some truth in it; then no one will be killed and that is the difference between this conspiracy and some others.
What is difficult for Serbs to grasp, because they were never told, they lost the war. What war? They are likely to ask. And what they needed was a leader with less balls but more brains.
EU or EUSSR or whatever you call it is the only way for Serbia and the Balkans. Once in they will help shape the Europe as all other member countries do. EU will become as democratic as the rest of the political situation allows it but together is much better than against each other.
Merry Christmas
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>62. At 06:15am on 19 May 2008, powermeerkat wrote:
>Have you been to Russia...lately?
>And I don't mean Moscow and St. Petersburg (still in Leningrad Oblast where a monument of Stalin has been recently erected), but Norilsk, Magnitogorsk, Vorkuta, Magadan, Nakhodka, Kamchatka, Sakhalin?
im live there, in nakhodka. it's a nice town
also about leningrad oblast - the city got its original name and it's right, the oblast saved its original name and it's right as well. and we can erect any monument we want, can't we? russia is a free country, you know
>Have you seen how millions of Russian peasants and pensioners live in this monoculture which cannot produce even a decent car, let alone computer or a passenger plane?
"monoculture", ilol'd hard
and, by the way, russian passanger plans are quite better then our cars
>Are you aware of epidemic proportions of AIDS, TB and alcoholism in Mother Russia?
i'd wonna look at your data comparing with others. of course, it's not everything so good here, but such haters like you (i've seen a lot of them) exaggerate pretty much and mostly without any proof
>Level of corruption in Russian Federation besting those in African bantustans?
i wonder, if you, by any chance, met this terrible corruption when you was there
>Or an omnipotence of its murderous secrete police?
omfg, do you really belive in your words? tell me more plz
>Do you know that its population is shrinking fast and that Chinese (mostly Manchurians) are simply walking in and resettling in the fast-emptying Russian South Eastern Siberia with total impunity, with Kremlin looking the other way rather than admitting its impotence vis-a-vis PRC?
yep, we have some problems with population growth. people mostly do not want to have more then one child - it's the main reason. about far east, its population gets lower cuz a lot of men move to other regions. about chineses, they are 'simply walking' here working as sellers and workers. and we have no problems with them. also i hope you understand the war with china is just impossible
>Dream on, comrade, dream on.
>After all, as V. I. Lenin stated: "Man cannot live without dreams".
say this to youself. the dogs bark, but the caravan goes on
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