Way out in Flemish
I've just popped over to London by Eurostar and, as I get off the train at St Pancras, a Belgian family, speaking Flemish, are a little confused how to get out.
"Ah: 'Sortie - Way Out'," Dad spots eventually.
But, given that a lot of the trains come from Brussels, shouldn't the sign be in his own language as well?
Eurostar says that there are many Flemish speakers around to help and point out that announcements on the train are in Flemish, as well as French and English.
The company says that there are many more German, Spanish and Japanese travellers than Flemish speakers and they don't get signs in their own language either. It's just a practical thing, it argues.
Common sense or cultural insensitivity ?
I’m Mark Mardell, the BBC's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
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Very short blog this time which leaves lots of questions...
Nevertheless, the language is officially Dutch and not Flemish. The difference between the two is mere accents and certainly not stronger than between South-East English and Scottish.
When the fast train connections extend (finally) (to Amsterdam), then signs in Dutch in London stations would serve not only the Flemish but the Dutch alike...
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I'm told the UK is getting to be ever more PC - about what things are called in English and, also, what languages have to be offered, is that right? Sounds to me as if it's contagious anyway - and you're in danger of catching it, Mark.
If I were Eurostar, I'd stick to the official EU languages. Mind you, if this PC thing is contagious, even the EU might catch it?
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Hi Mark
As a BBC Europe editor you should perhaps know that the correct name of the language spoken by more than half of the people in Belgium is "Dutch". It is the same language as is spoken in The Netherlands, although the accent is a bit different.
You seem to say that a Flemish family had a hard time finding the way out because they did not immediately understand "Sortie - Way Out". Did you really observe this? I found that hard to believe. I wonder how they are going to survive in London. It is common sense that a simply sign such as "Way Out" should be sufficient, including for the French.
However, it is cultural insensitivy that many people in London think that everyone can read English. Many of the more complicated information displayed at stations, museums or other tourists sites should be include French, German, Spanish, Japanese, and yes, also Dutch!
Bart
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Mark,
Please give me a break. I don't complain when I go to France and find the signs in French, or Germany and find them in German. I take a phrase book. If we accommodate Flemish speakers, what about the Poles? They are arriving here in their droves. What about the Latvians, Estonians, Czechs? I don't want to see signs in every language on Earth. People who come to England should expect to see signs in English - it's not rocket science.
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In my opion when your in England which as the english language so all sign should be in english and not in any other languages.Welcome to the EU
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Mark,
I suspect that there is no simple answer to the question you ask. But then, if there was, you wouldn't be asking. It is certainly nice to see the British trying to make an effort to assist those who can not speak the language. Given that I travel a lot around the EU I have very often had the experience of being somewhere for a day or two and not being able to read the signs. In the times when people would only go to another country for a longer period it might have been realistic to expect the visitor to learn the language to some degree. In today's world we have to make to with various partial solutions to an ever more significant problem, however. Of course, very often the solution is to have signs in English, the new lingua franca. Which, of course, brings us back to Dutch.
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Mark, the language of the ancient Greek city states was Greek and it worked a treat -- everybody could communicate with each other and the arts and science flourished, whatever the regional dialects of some of the city states. Ditto the Roman Empire (Latin), the Byzantine Empire (Greek) and the British Empire (English). I think it's time we acknowledged that for the sake of international communication, we have to agree that all important notices around the world should be available in the global international language (whichever one we decide to opt for) and secondary languages should be used at the discretion of the local, regional and national authorities and companies. I suggest English as the global international language for the simple reason that it's more than half way there already. But I'm open to suggestions as long as we can all agree on ONE language for global communication.
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www.free-europe.org
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The EU remains illegal
Each of these six treaties are completely illegal under the British Constitution, our 1689 Bill of Rights, our treason laws, and under our common law. It is unforgivable that the Queen, her Ministers and our Parliament have committed the criminal act of treason by signing these treaties, and broken our laws to abolish our nation.
The EU will always be illegal in Britain; but once the EU has complete power and control here, we can no more get rid of it than we could Germany, had their planned illegal occupation of Britain in 1940 been successful
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Why did they bother with French? ;-)
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All signs should be only in English. If it is also in French, that's just a compliment towards another wide spoken language. Sorry Neerlandophones and anyone else. End of the question.
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See
http://www.designofsignage.com/application/symbol/hospital/image/600x600/exit.jpg
In these days of widespread international travel the use of international symbols avoids having signs reading "exit" in 25 or more languages.
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Signs should be in the country's official language(s) only. There are simply to many languages in the European Union. When the Flemish decide to put, for example, the English language on their signs then what about German, French, Spanish, Italian and Polish? These languages are widely spoken and understood in the European Union to. Putting all these languages on signs isn't a solution because that would be much to confusing.
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Isn't St Pancreas near the Isle of Langerhan? They should have learned Pancreatitis before the went there. Why don't they all just learn to speak English, it would be so much simpler. Personally I speak Phlegmish especially when I hava a cold. It has a lot of hard chhh sounds in it.
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Obsession with appeasing minority interests may bring more confusion. A few years ago I found it hard to find my way arriving for the first time at the Midi railway station in Brussels, the "Capital of Europe", with English sings listed in small script, if at all, only after French, Dutch, and German - the three official languages of Belgium. Announcements on the train to the Brussels international airport, mainly packed with international travellers, were made in Dutch and French only. At Midi station again, an English friend of mine, trying to be polite and asking in French his ticket to Leuven (in Flanders), was sent off to Louvain in Valonia!
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Mark, please get your facts straight on the nature of the Dutch language. It is spoken by an odd 30 million people worldwide in the Netherlands, Belgium and Suriname (as well as in some other, smaller, places such as the Netherlands Antilles).
The Dutch language is 'governed' by the Dutch Language Union (Taalunie), which aims to stimulate the ties between Dutch speaking regions and protect the status of the language in all of those regions. For more information on the Taalunie, please visit their website at http://taalunieversum.org/en/
There is no such thing as a "Flemish language"
To refer to Dutch as it is spoken in Belgium as "Flemish" is just as factually wrong as referring to English as it is spoken in the US as "American" or English as it is spoken in Canada as "Canadian". These are not independent languages.
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"Way Out" is a poor sign.
If you use "Exit / Sortie" almost everyone, regardless of their language, going through the station will know what it means.
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Common sense.
I don't see any French language roadsigns in Flanders, and it's (officially) a trilingual country.
Bit of a pain if your going to Mons and you're confronted with signs for "Bergen", but the political elite in the north of Belgium couldn't care less, and there's an active discrimination towards non Dutch speakers (Ok, francophones). Why accomodate (at possibly great expense) when they dont?
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G-in-Belgium,
I don't see any Dutch or German signs in Wallonia.
If your in Wallonia and want to go to a Flemish town then everything is in French - Gent becomes Gant, Antwerpen becomes Anvers.
With that then why should they accomodate the French?
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I suggest that the EU demonstrate its cultural heritage in its signage: all signs should be posted in Latin only.
EXITUS
Though I prefer the more prophetic:
EXITIUM
Of course the entire matter is moot. A generation hence the signs will all be replaced by ones in Arabic, Turkish, or Urdu.
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Dear Mr Mardell,
It seems to me this is one of your more outlandish suggestions, if I may say.
While I take your point about the signs being in French, introducing another language would necessarily mean adding a host of others - which is impracticable.
D.
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I think we have to give Mark credit for trying to explain the Belgium problem from his viewpoint as an expat resident to a mainly UK based audience.
He is showing us that it is not only in the UK that people worry about pavements, transport, imigration, national identity. It is everywhere the same issues.
Yes, one of the 3 official languages of Belgium is Dutch, but it is universally refered to as Flemish on the streets and in the media for all but official communications. It is related to the strong flemish cultural identity. Within Belgium this results in strong, some say draconian, language laws - leading to bus companies being fined for not switching the destination board from French/Dutch to Dutch only as they exit Brussels Region.
It is the same discussion going on in the UK - when is it appropriate to use which languages, and when should there usage be regulated by law?
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Fair point Belgiumexpat - not that I inferred that Wallonia is a model of integrity and open armed welcoming, neither that a region or country should bend over backwards for non-natives or minorities - though to the East of Liège (or Luik if you feel so inclined) you get both German and French signposts, just as road names in my adopte home are both in Luxembourgish and French.
That said, I moved here from the UK years ago, learned french willingly (I was not forced, like our bordering-on-fascist flemish politicians would like to do).
I am not castigated as some subhuman, because I don't speak a dialect that isn't understood some 20 miles away.
On my rare trips through the Flanders I have had to switch from french to my native tongue plenty of times, with the response "Sorry, I thought you were 'Walen'". I don't expect anybody to be tri- or quadri-lingual either, just civil. Unfortunately, Bart De Wever and his ilk are only exacerbating the problems.
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I agree that there really is no need for signs on an English train station to be in Dutch; in both the Netherlands and Belgium English is taught from at the latest age 12, so there is really no excuse for failing to understand simple signs, like those giving exits.
Replying to post 24, G-in-Belgium, the reason why signs in some regions of Belgium are given in two languages is well regulated; this occurs only when there are two linguistic groups living in one Belgian state (the three states being Flanders, Brussels and Wallonia). Examples of these areas are the Voerstreek (Flemish land south of Dutch Limburg, but with a large percentage of Frenchspeaking inhabitants, and hence with signs in both Dutch and French) and the Germanspeaking area around Eupen, which is officially part of Wallonia and not its own state. Brussels is entirely multilingual and therefore signs everywhere are in at least French and Dutch.
So no, there is no real policy difference between Flanders and Wallonia in languages displayed on signs.
Nor will you get very far in Wallonia by speaking Dutch. The fact is that most Walloons don't speak Dutch and most Flemings are unwilling or unable to speak French. It's not really fair to blame one side for the current tensions, because these have been long in the making and were a joint effort. The Walloons really don't have much reason to complain, however, because they didn't get a bad deal out of anything thus far. Taking both the linguistic divisions and the financial subsidies they are still receiving into account, they can hardly say they got the short end of the stick.
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It would seem entirely logical that signs at St Pancras should be in Dutch as well as French, but then Britain still sufers from a quaint and thoughtless insularity.
On Dutch, Belgian and French motorways there are signs to "England" heading towards the ferry ports. In England, on the roads to France, Ireland etc we are lucky to find a small sign to "the Docks".
In truth the lack of signs at St Pancras probably matters little as nearly everyone speaks English, but when PC local authorities publish leaflets about how to access publicly funded services for RESIDENTS of this country in just about every non-European language under the sun, it does seem wrong that we cannot offer some courtesy to our own European neighbours.
The real challenge is to overcome the luddites who are still holding us back from completing the process of adopting the metric system, as most of the rest of the English speaking world has done.
Now it really would make life easier for visitors if speed limits, weight and height restrictions and distances were shown in units that they can readily understand...
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I can understand their frustration in trying to find the exit. Fortunately I understand French sortie "exit." But "way out" --that's just out there.
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"Mark, please get your facts straight...There is no such thing as a 'Flemish language'
To refer to Dutch as it is spoken in Belgium as 'Flemish' is just as factually wrong as referring to English as it is spoken in the US as 'American' or English as it is spoken in Canada as 'Canadian'" - SandroFantora
For those of us living in Flanders perhaps you could explain that to the Flemish before making such criticisms.
Certainly I can understand how someone from another country could believe that is the case, because more often than not I find myself hearing the phrases 'Vlaams gesproken' (Flemish speaking), 'Vlaamse taal' (Flemish language), or when pressing play on a DVD I've just bought the options are invariably 'English', 'Nederlands' or 'Vlaams'.
"It is the same discussion going on in the UK - when is it appropriate to use which languages, and when should there usage be regulated by law?" - mark_bxl
While I'd agree that such things are perhaps also being discussed in the UK, I suggest that the Flemish 'discussion' is in another league, ballpark, or country altogether.
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G-In Belguim claims that the Flemish politicians are fascist forcing the French speaking parts to learn Dutch, what a load of rubbish.
FACT: In Wallonia you are forced to learn French at school, you are not forced to learn Dutch.
FACT: In the Flemish areas of Belgium you are forced to learn French and Dutch.
So exactly who are the fascists?.
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Four words thats all,
exit,sortie,uitgang,ausgang.
Within 200km of Brussels more than 50 million people use this words,as far as i'm concerned it wouldn't be a major problem using them.
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To follow up from my previous post - and in reply to the vast majority of posts here - and after few glasses of wine in the animated multi-lingual company of my vlaamse-nederlander-bruxellois-brusseler-anglo-irish-francais friends;
There really are far more important things in the world then which language you put on a sign post. Cultural sensivity is to be respected, cultural arrogance however, is an excuse for extreme nationalist sentiment.
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"For those of us living in Flanders perhaps you could explain that to the Flemish before making such criticisms.
Certainly I can understand how someone from another country could believe that is the case, because more often than not I find myself hearing the phrases 'Vlaams gesproken' (Flemish speaking), 'Vlaamse taal' (Flemish language), or when pressing play on a DVD I've just bought the options are invariably 'English', 'Nederlands' or 'Vlaams'." --- MichaelBXL
Be that as it may, there is a great number of DVD's (to use just one example) that provide you with the options "British English" and "American English" so you would think a native of the English speaking world who moved to a region of the Dutch speaking world would be able to understand the situation. It's really very much the same concept, even if the terminology is somewhat more confusing (I suppose it would be helpful if instead of just "Vlaams" they would use "Vlaams Nederlands").
And in any case, Mark Mardell as one of the most famous and established BBC correspondents clearly does not lack in intelligence. Since his blog is somewhat of an authority in European affairs related media, I would appreciate a correct use of terminology concerning the one and only Dutch language.
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SandroFantora, if as you say there are a great number of movies/DVDs where the language options list not English, but "American English" and "British English" as the choices, then I for one am curious as to in which land you find such things.
Certainly in all these years I have yet to see in one English speaking country or another, a film, on DVD or in the cinema, where one version of English is considered somehow separate from all the others, or for that matter seen an imported TV programme where subtitles are provided in the same language.
You're correct in stating that Flemish is simply Dutch with a slight accent. My point though was that unless you live here, BBC correspondent or not, it's not a fair criticism.
These days, whatever the facts may be, even I no longer refer to this country as Belgium. For me it's Belgium and Flanders.
Why? As I suggested, you should ask the Flemish.
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@ 33
"These days, whatever the facts may be, even I no longer refer to this country as Belgium. For me it's Belgium and Flanders.
Why? As I suggested, you should ask the Flemish."
From your handle I guess that you're located in Brussels. Given that I find it ironic that you're saying that one should ask the Flemish as to why you're calling the country Flanders and Belgium and not Belgium. I find that very ironic. It would be better to ask the francophone bruxellois as to why the Flemish are sick of them and their arrogance.
I'd say even more: if Belgium still exists it's because of the Flemish and the efforts they make towards Belgium. Cause if the Flemish were really as bad or evil as the francophones want everyone to believe there wouldn't be any rivers of money going south, their wouldn't be any negotiations about communautarian issues, their wouldn't be parity in government and their sure wouldn't be any Belgium anymore.
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This whole story seems to be a total waste of a transistor's processing power.
Brussels is officially bilingual, many products in Belgium and Holland have far more than Flemish on them. The fact they could not understand "sortie" defies belief.
However Eurostar exit signs follow the world standard, as seen from Japan to Amsterdam - with a little green man running through a doorway. This is so the Kanji or Dutch word does not have to be understood. Just the picture shows it, and when I was last in Flanders, believe me the sign was there - everywhere, with the word 'uit' - but still, the pic gives it away.
Perhaps next week we can have a story on American tourists seeing the letter C on a bathroom tap and burning their hands - or perhaps why the English seem to think the rest of Europe is really stupid...
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Well, taking into account that St Pancras Railway Station is in London and that London is the capital city of United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, then all signs in London regardless of the place should be placed in all official languages of the United Kingdom, that is, placing them in English, Welsh, Scottish Gaelic and Irish Gaelic. This, of course, would leave no room for French, German, Spanish, Dutch and its variety of Flemish, Polish, etc.
Perhaps the suggestion of placing a standard European wide sign without any wording would be better. The Latin "Exitus" would also be a good idea.
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I think this is stupid, because when I go to France the airports and train stations have both French and English, I think we should put the flemish language on the way out boards, so that they can understand. I know English is the most common language but common some people just don't understand English
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Dear BBC bloggers,
Eurostar is a train servicing cities in France, Belgium, Flanders (and soon Holland), servicing French, Belgian, Flemish (and soon Dutch) cities.
All communication should be at least in the languages servicing those cities and countries. Other languages to be used should be at the discretion of Eurostar as a matter of a level of service to their customers.
The issue of using all EU languages should only be raised for a single train servicing all 27 capitals of the EU.
Samson II
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G-belgium
Calling flemish politician fascist is not very civil either. If they were fascist i'd never vote for them. It's easy to blame an entire people of being fascist, but I'd expect some more indepth thinking before making such a harsh statement.
I admit, not all Flemish are as tolerant, and a minority in flanders has problems with the Walloons. Which can be understandable in historical context. I somethimes too get the idea that a minority of french-speakers has no respect for the flemish cultural identity. (and vice versa) Often complaining about the flemish abroad, making us sound like complete villains. If flemish truelly wanted to get rid of the walloon all we needed to do was to vote for this in the flemish parliament and we'd be gone. The majority of the flemish population wants belgium to continue to exist.
To me every belgian is equal, walloon, flemish or otherwise. But this entails mutual respect. Belgian politics are complex and marred with a long controversial history which is somethimes difficult to understand for outsiders. So please don't make any harsh statements without properly understanding the context.
To your comment about flemish saying they thinking of you as "walen". Well some flemish are just dumb and xenophobic. I don't like it either, but they are found in every people around the world. Don't criticize a people for the unfounded statements of some of it's members.
And this "dialect" happens to be the official language of 27 million people. Please show some respect.
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I forgot to mention in my earlier post. Is the eurostar agreement not between belgium, france and the UK? If I recall correctly it was a joint project between these 3 countries and as a result should use the official languages of these 3 countries.
Since all belgians are equal and belgium is a part of the project, the official eurostar languages should be:
French, English, Dutch and German. Since the signs are there in the station for eurostar travelers I dont think it would be too much to accomodate dutch and german as well. (same goes for belgian stations receiving international tourists)
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Ah, so many issues...
For a start, I think this is more to do with the pathetic state of signage in the UK. I haven't been to St Pancras yet, but if it's anything like the other major rail stations and airports here it's not surprising they couldn't find the exit sign. Compared to most of the major European stations that have properly designed layouts with intelligable signage, the UK layouts and signage are a mess.
I doubt language was an issue, as I've yet to meet a Fleming that hasn't spoken at least Dutch, French, English, and a smattering of German, and quite a few who also speak Spanish or Italian as well. To them its just a pragmatic thing to do. Puts us English-only speakers to shame, and the Walloons too, most of whom only speak French.
On the whole Flanders versus Walloonia thing: get over yourselves! Grinding historic axes based on arbitrary ethnic and linguistic boundaries has no place in the modern world, swallow some pride and just get on with the future.
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MichaelBXL;
I personally keep running into various options for the different versions of English on DVDs but I won't claim to be a fan of each and every genre or subsection or that I'm an expert in the field so I suppose my experiences could be highly subjective. Nevertheless, cartoons for my children virtually always offer a choice between American and British English in both audio and subtitles. The same goes for subtitles for the hearing impaired on just about every movie I've ever watched on DVD which I don't personally make use of, but some of my friends do out of necessity.
But I digress.
My original point is this: I would expect an intelligent and capable BBC correspondent who resides in Belgium to know that the official languages of the country are Dutch, French and German and that Flemish is not a language. I stand by that.
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#35 " the world standard, as seen from Japan to Amsterdam ...a little green man running through a doorway. "
Sorry. That ISO sign is for emergency exits. That's why the man is running.
Maybe no one has bothered to cut and paste the reference that I gave in #13
The accepted international standard pictogram for EXIT is a box with rounded corners - one side open with an arrow pointing out. If you're stupid enough not to understand that then frankly you shouldn't be allowed out on your own. It's a simple sign that overcomes all petty jealousies and arguments about languages. Just like the ones with an aircraft climbing (departures) or descending (arrivals), etc.
Maybe signage in general isn't up to scratch at St Pancras. It wouldn't surprise me.
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"29. At 9:34 pm on 25 Apr 2008, Rustigjongens wrote:
G-In Belguim claims that the Flemish politicians are fascist forcing the French speaking parts to learn Dutch, what a load of rubbish."
Too true, it's rubbish, but you invented that bit. I was referring to the Wooncode.
"39. At 8:46 pm on 27 Apr 2008, ensignyoshi wrote:
G-belgium
Calling flemish politician fascist is not very civil either. If they were fascist i'd never vote for them. It's easy to blame an entire people of being fascist, but I'd expect some more indepth thinking before making such a harsh statement.
I am not tarring the whole of flanders with the same brush.
But Yves Leterme said : "The walloons do not have the mental capacity to learn Dutch" (He's wrong, there's just absolutely no interest, you see). I don't want to spend all week searching for ammo, but this attitude is prevalent in flemish politics, and to some extent does affect the population. I suppose if I were back home in England and heard every day "the Scots are lazy, good for nothing, scrounging idiots, that can't do a full day's work" I'd probably be influenced too. It's not just the Vlaams Belang though is it?
Once again, I shell reiterate: The other end of belgium is not whiter than white (far from it) and in this ongoing cultural argument, the "french" politicians are just as childish as thier northern counterparts.
But I still think it would be silly to put "uitrit" signs in St. Pancras. :P
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Most of the Dutch people I know in Belgium are gracious enough to acknowledge that their language is, indeed, properly referred to as Flemish. They're also smart enough to figure out how to get out of a railway station without a glossary, even notwithstanding the poor signage at St Pancras.
The Dutch language does have one advantage in this field though, compared to English and French, although it is unknown, apparently, to G-in-Belgium and to many economic operators in Brussels, and this is that there are two words, UITGANG which is the exit on foot, and UITRIT which is an exit for vehicles. This distinction is invaluable when you are lost in a Brussels car park, or would be if it was applied consistently.
I should also like to inform Eurostar that the Dutch language announcements on their trains are, in general, incomprehensible and solely serve to amuse the Dutch speaking travelers who, fortunately, have already understood the announcement twice before it gets to their "turn".
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G-in Belgium wrote: "The walloons do not have the mental capacity to learn Dutch" (He's wrong, there's just absolutely no interest, you see).
Funny you add the part in between brackets since that is exactly what Leterme meant, that it's either a matter of not wanting to or not being able to. The Walloon media tends to leave out the 'not wanting to' part of the quote.
And for the record, he was talking about the Francophones living in Flemish towns who don't speak the language of the town they live in, not about Walloons in general.
Personally, I never understood why schools in Wallonia simply don't make Dutch compulsory, they way it is in Flanders. I can't blame Walloon students for choosing English over Dutch in school. I would probably do the same if I lived in Wallonia. It's Walloon politicians who have the power to change these things.
A friend of mine is a French teacher and it's become a lot harder to convince students why it's important to learn French. The typical line we used to get when we were in school, "this is a bilingual country, it's important you speak both languages" doesn't really work anymore. Students simply wonder why they should bother if the Walloons won't.
You may call us fascists, but a lot of these so called fascists grew up in a time of "et pour les Flamands la même chose". Everything was supposed to be in French, Flemish would cease to exist, the Flemish simply had to adapt wether they wanted to or not. The French speaking upper class wanted to erase the Flemish culture and failed. As a result, the Flemish feeling is a lot stronger than it otherwise would have been. For years and years, we've had to fight to keep this language, had to listen to Francophones dismiss this language as low class. So forgive us for being a little bit sensitive about it every now and then.
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G-In Belgium, what a xenophobic and rascist person you are.
As you can see from all the other posts it is you who seems unable to accept that your views are in the extreme minority, in fact I would go as far as to say that you need to get some anger management training.
I work for a multi-national company, this company has offices in Brussels, and believe me that your opinion is one that I have never heard uttered from anyone.
Post 46# destroys your arguments totally, and I just hope that you start understanding that the more people like you attack the Flemish Belguims the quicker you will hasten the end of Belgium.
Tot straks.
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For years, in Flanders, we indeed have to learn different languages. So that the family couldn't understand the sign seems completely ridiculous.
But this seems to be a whole new trend. Now the pressure in our European society is getting harder people seem to want to lie back and seek shelter in their own culture. While we better look the other way. Why do we have to discuss all these futility's. The longer I'm away from europe, the more depressed i get by reading all kinds of new regulations. Do we really have to listen to all the small demands of people and create thousands of written rules. Do we have to honor laziness? Praise the average guy or to force them to keep on being motivated and change himself.
Where are the good times where people could judge from their won point of view and respect others. Maybe just ask a neighbor and fall back on our community, meaning every one around us. What's wrong with this.
Yes, English is a lingua franca and maybe another one might come as well. This made me happy. Finally i can travel around this planet and talk. So if a little afford can't be made to understand what worth living for. Traveling is just slightly different from watching TV, you have to act, maybe some need to understand this.
Further do I want to blame companies many software companies. In stead of educating the people by forcing them somehow to learn sth new. But these these in stead of learning a language by small efforts, try to understand, everything comes easy and translated. Was DOS, Apple and Microsoft software that difficult to us. Just to understand a few keywords was enough. But hey decided to keep the public ignorant. Break our social power and divid us again. Big crowds are dangerous.
Language should be at tool for communicating and this takes effort. So a little understanding is ok.
It solves many problems. Have you ever encountered two belgians speaking English. Yes, nice way to solve our barrier. ALthough i have to admit that many walloons should start learning it.
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Although I have yet to see this on DVDs, I *have* seen it on some websites, and especially computer programs (including Microsoft operating systems) where you are asked to chose between British and American English. Many people who learn English as a second language are also given the option -to become certified as proficient- to be tested either in American English (U. of Michigan) or British English (Cambridge). Although I haven't seen this in the US, it makes sense that DVDs of non-English-language films offer either British or American English subtitles. There is a cultural difference, and -although it is the same language- there are *several* words and colloquial expressions that have entirely different meanings in each country. The BBC generally minimizes this, but an American in Britain (or a Briton in America) will have some vocabulary shortage when conversing with locals in the vernacular.
As for Flemish vs. Dutch...they are dialects of the same language, and many Flemings themselves can attest to this...although language identity can be a complicated issue, with a good example being Serbian and Croatian. On the contrary, languages like French, Arabic, and Castillian (Spanish) contain several highly differing dialects, but are considered single, unified languages. Note the considerably differing Canadian (Quebec) and France versions of French which are considered a single language, as are the different variations of Arabic, and the many offshoots of Castillian (which is called either español or castellano, or even both interchangeably, depending on the country) which are all considered a single language.
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Antwerp Station in Belgium has just gone through a major facelift and now has a sizeable shopping area. The signs pointing to this area are only in Flemish --despite the fact that the city is keen to step up its tourist traffic
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If the success of a blog post is measured by the reactions it attracts, then this is a great one. However, it is a sad situation that of all things in this world, all you could think of was to "sortie or way out" for a (presumably) arrogant (if not outright stupid) Flemish person.
If one cannot understand sortie or ausgang or uit or exit or way out signs (or accompanying graphics), then he should not be allowed to board the eurostar - or even to leave the baby sitter's lap.
Actually, there are bigger questions begging for answers. You move into a foreign country (speaking another language than you) and you need to open a bank account, sign up for TV or internet, pay your bills, understand local transport etc etc...I would have appreciated an article on this, rather than on "how to exit a foreign railway station".
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How about we join the International Age and just have a picture of an open door?
Then there's no prejudice against or towards any language. Or illiterate people. And Braille over the top for blind people.
@Jaws1912
"you're" not "your". You'd think that when you're telling people off for not speaking English you'd have it down yourself first...
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I'm xenophobic and racist? That's the best yet! I definitely don't have fear or hatred for the strange or foreign. Neither do I postulate a hierarchy based on skin colour. I work and live in a country where I regularly come into contact with people who don't come from west Yorkshire, and seem to have absolutely no problem with them.
Tintine makes a valid point. I do not understand Dutch/Flemish, so can only get a second hand account, be it from an english source or an admittedly biased French Belgian source. RTL-TVI are definitely conveyors of sensationalist anti-Flemish bovine stercus.
I will happily be corrected by individuals who know better than I, as in xspecial's humorous posts. I agree with Titines post (I just take exception to "you may call us all fascists"; I didn't, if you read my posts properly), but I definitely take exception to being insulted by a complete idiot like you, Rustigjongens. And I definitely didn't make up the results of the 2007 Belgian general election! Who got 17 seats again?
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Sheesh
all this fuzz for something that even Belgians do not understand anymore. And I am allowed to say this being Belgian-Flemish myself (although I prefer to be called EU citizen because to me, that's all that matters nowadays)!
Wasn't this blog supposed to be going on a family coming from abroad, arriving in a train station that they have never seen before, while having difficulties to find their way out?
Looks to me that the signs in St. Pancras are not that clear as the designers thought. And the same can be said from multiple other stations, airports and other public places (not only in the UK, here in Belgium and other countries as well). Maybe that one (or even more) big sign with "EXIT" does a better job than one of those small "Way out" signs.
Oh, and two remarks:
@ G-in-Belgium: those 17 seats are just a results of bad politics (and some compulsory voting). That's no racism!
@ the others: When someone who only speaks french and moves to a dutch speaking neighbourhood, that you would kindly ask him that he would take some dutch lessons (free of cost and no testing needed afterwards) in order to integrate a little bit better, that's no racism either!
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I am inclined to agree with Eurostar, it
is impractical to put a 'Way out' sign in all
the languages spoken by potential
travellers.
The international convention for signing
at airports is to put signs in the locally
spoken language and 1 or 2 additional
'major' languages. For a destination such
as St. Pancras, English and French should
suffice for now, perhaps German later.
Cultural sensitivity doesn't enter into it.
No country in europe attempts to provide
all it's public signs in any language other
than it's local one - simple practical matter.
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So much nonense here from people who have no clue.
Frenchderek writes: "If I were Eurostar, I'd stick to the official EU languages. Mind you, if this PC thing is contagious, even the EU might catch it?"
But Flemish is basically Dutch. The language spoken in Flanders is monitored by the same official institution (de nederlandse taalunie) that monitors the language spoken in the Netherlands. The last time I checked, Dutch is still an official EU language. It is just a long standing quasi colonial tradition of french speakers to paint Flemish as some patois or pidgin only spoken by a handfull backward people.
Then you have Cyril 2 who wrote: "Obsession with appeasing minority interests may bring more confusion."
But Flemish, or indeed more correct Dutch, is the language of 60% of people in Belgium. If there are those signs in French in London because that train arrives from Belgium, than these signs should be also in Dutch. And let me immediately add that, to my mind, signs in English alone would more than suffice. But it is not because Belgium was dominated by a French speaking elite 100 years ago, that it has to be portrayed as a French speaking country.
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Quite frankly I've always thought that signs anywhere should be in the local language and no other language. Furthermore, when a road sign points directions to a place in another country or region that speaks a differing language it should use the true name of the place and not a bizarre local translation eg London should never be Londres, Mons should never be Bergen, Tournai should never be Dornik etc.
Finally, having lived in Wallonia for a very long time my children and now grandchildren are/were obliged to learn Dutch, and were only permitted to learn English much later on towards the end of their secondary education.
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I think signage in French is (a) a small courtesy and (b) sufficient, given that all travellers coming from officially bilingual Brussels will have entered the UK by way of French territory (i.e. the Coquelles - Folkestone Channel Tunnel). If we were to take account of all the countries from which arriving rail travellers could conceivably have begun their journeys to London(cue "The Man in Seat 61"), there wouldn't be a sign-board sufficiently large enough... On the other hand, signs at Harwich should say "Uitgang" rather than "Sortie", since you don't need to transit France to get to Hoek van Holland.
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I hate to break up the linguistic debate, but the word "uitgang" is the same in Dutch and Flemish.
Anyway as all subsequent signs will be in English, does it really matter? Multilingual signs at stations, ports and airports are really just a form of welcome mat, a curtesy.
It's like the first payage you come to in France has a lane for right-hand drivers, you have to get out of the car at all the rest!
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There are many who will criticise the comment I am about to make and I can understand that their view has some academic value, but I make it for pragmatic and practical reasons. In the UK, all of the UK, all signs and services should be in English. The promotion of English is beneficial intellectually and socially but also economically. Translation services should be available at a cost to those who need them. 'Saving' languages is an intellectual hobby which divides people, creating nationalism and bogotry. Languages are about communication and the better the communication the more likely it is that we will all live in peace and none of us will suffer the effects of apartheid. Multi culturalism has created self imposed apartheid and unrest. The politics of the EU make at least three languages required languages, but to add more is the easy option not the correct one. In a diverse place such as the EU we need to emphasise and encourage togetherness, not separation.
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"From your handle I guess that you're located in Brussels. Given that I find it ironic that you're saying that one should ask the Flemish as to why you're calling the country Flanders and Belgium and not Belgium. I find that very ironic." - BernardVC
Unfortunately I'll have to disappoint you, and your presumptions. The moniker was chosen simply for pragmatic reasons, given the abundance of Michaels.
I may work in Brussels, but I actually live in that city with the wonderful slogan of "'t stad is van iedereen" and as suggested in previous posts, I'm an 'engelsman die nederlands spreekt'.
The only irony for me is the number of Flemish who believe what they do, or consider our opinions on what we find "so much nonsense here from people who have no clue", when in fact it's exactly the opposite.
On Mark's original question, I think it should be a case of signs simply in English, or the most commonly used/understood languages. It's mainly a courtesy thing, in which case I'd agree with the statement from Eurostar.
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An important fact has not yet been mentioned in the comments regarding this blog - out of approximately 70 million inhabitants of France and Belgium, the current destinations served by Eurostar, only about 5 or 6 million speak Dutch/Flemish as their first language, which gives the most credible explanation as to why the signs at St. Pancras are listed in English and French.
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Could those who quarrel about Dutch/Flemish possibly accept Africaans as a way out? And continue tolerating English and French untill they are officially replaced by Arabic and Urdu?
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In my opinion, the local language should be sufficient, i.e. just English in London, French in Paris, French/Dutch in Brussels. Once out of the station, the traveller has to cope anyway with the local language.
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Have a look around in Belgium, because the French speakers and the Dutch speakers can't agree, never mind the German speakers and a few that use Luxembourgish, more and more signs are in English only. Have I been spoilt, the Belgians I have met have spoken English almost as well as the Dutch, who have a better command of the grammar than the average Englishman.
I greatly doubt that any Belgian who could afford to buy a coffee in London would be unable to understand basic English.
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Mark:
an interesting blog !!!
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"out of approximately 70 million inhabitants of France and Belgium, the current destinations served by Eurostar, only about 5 or 6 million speak Dutch/Flemish as their first language"
While that may be so, the catchment area (250km radius around each of the other two Eurostar stations) results in roughly 35% of the people having Dutch as mother tongue. That's a big difference.
Nonetheless I don't really mind not having a sign in Dutch there. I personally think that the reason why this family was having problems, is the use of "Way out" instead of "Exit". Almost all signs that I see here in Belgian public places are accompanied with a universally understandable icon.
I do agree though that in public places where many people arrive, there should be more languages on signposts than just the local language. But only within that public place though. The problem is usually getting out of those places if you don't know the language. Once outside, those people will probably have contacted a friend to pick them up. But if they can't get to that friend, they're in trouble.
About the Flemish being fascist: it is historically understandable that we're currently reacting like this. True, some laws can be neutered, but sadly enough the "wooncode" which demands you to have a free course of Dutch is really needed since many French-speaking who come to live into Flanders prefer to assimilate instead of adapt to their new environment. We don't expect them to speak Dutch from day 1, but they can at least try...
My respect for the Wallonian part of our country hasn't gone down that much yet. Many of the characteristics of their politicians can be seen in ours as well. They simply do not represent any of the regions it seems. According to me, most of this so-called crisis is all due to the media. I'm not usually one to criticise them, but this time they're really setting us up against each other.
Well... For the 'outsiders': here you see how such a simple observation can result in such a discussion here.
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For Cyril-2's sake and many others, Leuven and Louvain are one and the same city.
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