Fire 'em, those people next door
"It's not childish, and it's not ridiculous!"
The Greek foreign minister Dora Bakoyannis had said as much during the interview and now, as I pressed the stop button on my digital recorder, she said it again.
Not for the record, but very much aimed at me personally, shaking her head forcefully and, I thought, perhaps a little sadly.
My question, earlier in the interview, had been deliberately brutal.
I had come to Athens to try to discover what lies behind the Greeks' insistence on stopping the neighbouring country calling itself "Macedonia".
An insistence that has lasted nearly two decades and climaxed last month with the Greeks using their veto to stop their neighbour joining Nato.
It infuriated the Americans and left some other diplomats regarding them in exactly the terms I used.
In Athens the view is very different.
Many see the veto as a masterstroke which could lead to the settlement of this dispute.
Dance-floor
"It takes two to tango," says one senior Greek politician, and in the government's view Macedonia has to be forced on to the dance-floor.
The socialist opposition's senior foreign affairs adviser, Dimitris Droutsas, who worked for the party leader when he was foreign minister, is not impressed with the government or its handling of foreign policy in general.
But he likes this move: "The only leverage that exists is their ambition to become members of Nato and the EU. They are knocking on the door. Skopje now sees we mean business: Greece did not hesitate to use its veto power. It is our only negotiating tool."
Then Ms Bakoyannis told me: "Nobody would use it (the veto) lightly. People know our reason is that we want to leave behind the nationalistic ideas of the past."
When you are new in the Balkans, you wonder why Greeks keep talking about what sounds like "fire 'em". Then you realise it's not a call for harsh employment policy but their pronunciation of their preferred acronym for the state in the North.
They are talking about the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. That is the name that the Greeks have, grudgingly, accepted that their neighbour can call itself, rather than Macedonia plain and simple.
So what is it about this name business?
Romeo and Juliet
While I play devil's advocate and suggest to Greek politicians that "a rose by another other name would smell as sweet", they first insist that the country to the north is not a foe and indeed answer me with variations on Juliet's other contention: "'tis but thy name that is my enemy."
What's in this particular name?
The reason is quite simple. Northern Greece is also called Macedonia. The Greeks argue, with impeccable logic, that "Macedonia" is a geographical expression for a place that is mostly in Northern Greece, partly in Fire 'em (Fyrom) and with a bit in Bulgaria (and some add a tiny bit in Albania).
They say that whilst the country next door may not have real territorial ambitions on their chunk of Macedonia, accepting the name would encourage nationalist sentiment.
So we talk of "Skopje" (the capital), "our neighbour", "the country next door", "the state we are talking about".
All crop up in conversation. When one of the people I am meeting in Athens says "it's alright you can call it Macedonia", it's like "you can smoke" or "do take off your shoes".
The insistence has created low farce in high places. Greece won't allow Fyrom to be seated under "M" for Macedonia at the United Nations, and they themselves won't accept "F" for Former. So the country is seated among the "Ts", for "The".
Changing names
It is very easy to mock this position, and mock people do.
American newspapers point out that there is a town in the US called "Athens" and ask if it should be renamed.
The author of a letter to the Economist suggests Greece should henceforth be known as "The Former Ottoman Province of Greece".
I ask why there is no friction between the Belgian area of Luxembourg and the neighbouring country of Luxembourg, and wonder aloud if Turkey should claim the right of ownership of all Christmas poultry.
What fascinates me about this, and it is the deadly fascination of the Balkans at the moment, is that this is not an endgame, but an opening gambit of something that will resonate for a long time.
It is the Greek contention that is they are attempting to make conditions clear now, at the beginning, that there can be no future in a Greater Macedonian nationalism.
Of course there is some history but, so unusually in the Balkans, not buckets of it dripping with blood. As so often in the region, the history is laced with anachronistic references to race and nations.
Here Alexander the Great is dragged in. It is a shame archaeologists haven't discovered his passport or birth certificate, to settle matters.
But the point is that over hundreds of years there is hardly a hint, not a whisper, of territorial ambition from those up south to those down north, to explain why The Name looms so large.
Tito and Stalin
But the Greek government does point to a pivotal moment in their history to justify their stance. The foreign minister tells me:
"The unification of geographical Macedonia was Tito and Stalin's idea, mainly because they wanted access to the Aegean Sea. It was one of the reasons we fought our civil war and the ideas which were put up by them for the unification of Macedonia must be buried in the past with them.
"This is very important because we are not talking about ancient history but the history of people who are still alive and who fought a civil war for democracy along with the British and the Americans helping us. So what we are saying is not childish and is not ridiculous."
A 1944 memo from the US State Department is produced in support. It notes "with considerable apprehension" that Yugoslav partisans and the Bulgarians are arguing in favour of an independent Macedonia as "a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece".
But Tito and Stalin are dead, and so, moreover, are the empires they built.
If any outside power has a sneaky reason to create a Greater Macedonia now I can't see who it would be or what strategy they could be pursuing.
It's obvious the tiny, new state doesn't pose any military threat to Greece, which by comparison is a super-power.
There are scant signs of any expansionist movement, no evidence of even wacky terrorist groups, although the Greeks point to a recently declassified American intelligence document from 1990, talking about a "spectacular growth of Macedonian nationalism" and stating "the potential for an international crisis is manifest".
They also say that government-backed books are produced in Macedonia talking of a greater state and that the prime minister there was seen laying a wreath in front of such a map showing Greater Macedonia.
Losing face
Dora Bakoyannis is insistent that Greece is a huge investor in the country and wants it in Nato and the European Union. She says this is about preventing trouble in the future, preventing the rise of a dangerous nationalism.
"It has to be clear that it's a very destabilising idea. Destabilisation in this region doesn't mean that you have an army in 2008 and you invade. The danger is from the argument."
I wonder if there is at least as great a danger of creating or exacerbating that nationalism by the intense focus on the name that cannot be spoken.
No-one I talk to in Greece is anything less than passionate on the subject, and there is no sense of weariness over the argument.
But I get the strong sense that the scant evidence is being gathered up and offered because successive Greek governments have backed themselves into a corner.
Ms Bakoyannis acknowledges her father fell as prime minister because he was urging compromise and says her most difficult moment was telling parliament of a softening of the line.
The conservative "New Democrat" government is in a precarious position anyway, and much of its support comes from Greek Macedonia, where feelings run high.
The old, socialist establishment thinks the current crop of ministers has been rather too weak on the issue.
The government can't now, after all these years, back down and lose face in a dispute with a much smaller neighbour.
Deal or no deal?
So what are the prospects for a deal?
None before Fyrom's elections on June 1st, I would have thought.
He's had some jobs near the top of American politics: an aide to LBJ, under secretary in charge of nuclear non-proliferation and a commissioner of the New York Port Authority.
But for the last 18 years, much of his life has been devoted to finding an acceptable name for Greece's small neighbour to the north and he says, I imagine with some relief, that a solution is not "months and months" away.
The two sides are closer than before. Would the foreign minister accept the Republic of Northern Macedonia or Republic of New Macedonia, for instance?
"New Macedonia, North Macedonia: names like this, of course, meet our proposal which is Macedonia with a geographical objective. That means they will not monopolise the whole of Macedonia. I would never accept that the Greek position is a childish position. Whoever has an opinion about the region, we are the neighbours, we have to live here."
This year we will see whether the letters FYROM are to become one of those peculiar footnotes of history or a running sore that creates tensions long into the future.
But what's your view about the importance of a name of a nation?
Comments
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I think it would be more logical, if the UK demanded that Ireland stops calling herself Ireland, because it suggest an ambition to unite the whole island of Ireland... It would make logic, but not sense. What possible reason can Greece have in antagonising a neighbour, even a small and weak one?
I asked a Greek about it once and he started talking to me about Alexander the Great. I asked if the Macedonians are ethnically unrelated to Greeks and are they usurping to be descendants of the ancient Macedonians. He paused for a moment and then said he didn't know.
But even if so, in a world where securing contracts with China is a good enough reason to publicly lessen her anti-human rights record, I just don't believe this is their only motivation. They must have a rational, materialistic reason. They just can't talk about it loudly...
Oh, and off course there is no better way to reduce nationalism in another country, than humiliating that country on the international area. It's like telling your flatmate "I don't like your face, cover it" and being surprised that he starts to act grumpily.
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as people of this world, isn't it time we moved on from such land disputes and work together as equals?
the 'Greek-Macedonia Alliance' anyone?
how about the 'Greater British Irelands'?
or even the United States of Africa, or United States of South America...
...you never know, we might find we had more in common with others than we realised!
If not, we might have to wait for a revolution to make us all just one world again...here's to the future!
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A friend of mine is from Macedonia, and he told me about a village in an area of northern Greece where there's a substantial Macedonian minority. Some of the villagers were flying the Macedonian flag; the Greek police removed it, and apparently were pretty forceful in doing so. But in a free democracy (which Greece at least claims to be!) why shouldn't people be allowed to fly whatever flag they wish outside their house? And by extension, what right does Greece have to bully it's northern neighbour over something so trivial?
It reminds me of the time a group of innocent plane spotters were arrested in Greece for "spying" - perhaps the country really does have some growing up to do!
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On the face of it, I agree that this appears childish. However, you might like to look at some of the recent background, and Greek fears; these seem to be well summarised at http://www.mlahanas.de/Greece/Cities/ThessalonikiWhiteTower.html
If this is correct, it was at best insensitive (anyone care to predict the French reaction if we put the Eiffel Tower on our currency?) and at worst a statement of intent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_modern_Macedonia has a map showing where the region 'Macedonia' was situated at different times in history; Turkey, Bulgaria and Albania may be watching this debate with interest.
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Mr. Mark Mardell,
I too think this is a ridiculous argument, and it can actually be solved quite easily (I'm on the side that fYROM name itself New/Nova/North/Slav-Macedonija or the like. You raise an interesting point about Athens Georgia, or Luxembourg, and Belgium.
Where you have not dug deeper, or connected the two together, is actually looking at those arguments. You can go today into a primary school in fYROM and find maps that include Macedonia proper (Greek) a piece of fRYOM. Further, Luxemburg, nor Belgium, claim the other land to be theirs, and indeed respect each others history over the lands. As for Athens, Georgia, they are not claiming Athens Greece to have been founded by Americans or a British colony way back when, nor have maps that include it as their own. Further, one can look at Mexico, and New Mexico. Need I say more? British Columbia, District of Columbia. Prefixes works wonders. Take a look at Belarus, and Russia, their is no conflict in name there either.
As Pawel_M said about Greece
"I just don't believe this is their only motivation. They must have a rational, materialistic reason. They just can't talk about it loudly...".
He/She has it quite the opposite way around, and is exactly why the Greek position takes the stance it does. The ultra-nationalists in fYROM have textbooks of Macedonia proper (Greek) being apart of one large Macedonia, and claim the port of Thessaloniki (the name of the sister of Alexander the Great, who of course was Greek, look at the writing on his father's tomb), which of course, IS for materialistic means. As for what Pawel_M asked about Macedonians being related to the Greeks, the Macedonians are Greeks. fYROM-ians, are slaves that settled in the 6th century BC, and therefore are not.
One could make an argument that since the Slavs settled in the area, they have some right to some connotation of Macedonia in their names, which is what the Greek position is willing to compromise on, such as SlavMacedonija or North/New etc...
As for what hallucigenia wrote, is utter nonsense. The statements I have listed can be proven by encyclopedias and the like, historians, classicists and researchers, whereas his/her quotes are nothing else but propaganda.
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Excellent, Bakoyannis did not mince words. So you need a passport from Alexander ehh? To prove what? Is the author of this article hinting that Alexander wasn’t Greek but a Slav? When did the Slavs arrive in the Balkans? There are official textbook maps in FYROM (the official UN name for the country) that includes Greek Macedonia, is this not outrageous? Sweden's Absolut vodka had to recently withdrawn advertisement because it angered and outraged many U.S. citizens by idealizing an early 19th century map showing chunks of the United States as Mexican. And look at what these Skopians push in their comments…that there are a Macedonian minority in the Greek province of Macedonia. All the citizens of the Greek province of Macedonia are Macedonian Greeks, so how can there be a "Macedonian" minority? If the Greek state admits the presence of a "Macedonian" minority, then the same state would invalidate the identity of the overwhelming majority (99.5%) of the citizens of the province.
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I meant to put slavs, not 'slaves' in my previous post, I apologize, and I hope the moderator would correct that for me, if possible
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Why are the Scots incensed when the Greeks or the Italians (or the French or the Spanish) use "England" to refer to the whole of the island?
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How quickly we forget.
You need to ask yourself why the Greeks are worried about Macedonia threatening their Northern region. Wasn't it only in 1913 that the Northern Greek region WAS Macedonia? They've taken their land and now wish to take their name as a final kick in the guts. Oh and when did Northern Greece come to be named Macedonia I wonder? We've maintained the name for, I don't know, 2500 odd years. And Greece?
In any case, well written article and let's all hope for a resolution very soon.
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In what language exactly did you "maintain the name" for....2500 years?!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
It is just short man syndrome, the Greeks have found somebody smaller than themselves that they can kick around. Spain is just the same with Morocco.
Two nations that once mattered but are now just a drain on the resources of the north. Brussels should take a hard line here, tell the Greeks that the funding tap is switched off until they recognise the Macedonians right to call themselves whatever they please. Failing that suspends Greeces membership of the EU.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
How can you forget your recent history,,anybody ever heard what happened almost one hundred years ago,1912 and 1913.In today's internet info just "google " Macedonia ,balkan wars,1912 and read and learn the History and than please do not post any stupid comments about the Macedonia.
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The emphasis on ancient history does a disservice to the source of the real dispute. The name of Macedonia was not adopted for the FYROM nation until the 1940s when Tito tried to wrest the Greek part of Macedonia away during the Greek Civil War (the USA helped beat that effort back). Though the nation of FYROM may not present an irredentist threat to modern Greece, it is difficult for Greeks who lived through the Greek Civil War to forget that the name was originally adopted with the sole intent of carving up Greece.
The Greek gov't simply requests that FYROM adopt a descriptor which will differentiate it from Greek Macedonia, so that FYROM doesn't have a monopoly over the name. In the Greek region of Macedonia, there are a host of cultural associations and peoples who also use the name, so the univocal association of the term Macedonia with the nation to the north presents a problem. It causes confusion.
A good analogy would be to imagine nations forming below Texas or California, with these nations adopting the name of those states as their national names. While the world would refer to the citizens of these new nations as Texans or Californians, confusion would be created among Americans from those states who also referred to themselves as such.
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An interesting issue was touched above. It's not enough for Macedonia to change her name to New/Upper/North Macedonia (which may sound fine, but I still can't think of anything more humiliating than being forced to change your state's name by another county). Now they can't even call themselves Macedonians, because, as Kyonite seems to imply, the Greeks living in the Greek province of Macedonia already identify themselves as Macedonians.
So how are the people of the Republic of Macedonia to call themselves? New Macedonians? As opposed to Old Macedonians, to whom they are not related? Ridiculous. Imagine being part of a distinct culture and not being able to name it properly. This means a major identity crisis. Try openly suggesting that Ireland should be renamed as Republic of Southern Ireland if you want to experience how national identity issues can be sensitive.
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Posting:
Dear Mark Mardell,
Thank you for trying to shed some light on the issue.
It's very unfortunate that Greek view is they can tell other people how should they name themselves.
Their foreign policy is just a reflection of the internal state of affairs there (regarding minorities rights), about which one can read more at:
http://www.mhrmi.org/news/2008/january27_e.asp
Best wishes to you for the effort, and to all that will try to read a bit more about the issue and ask themselves why Greece was allowed into EU in the first place in light of such blatant violations of basic human freedoms.
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There seems to be some general confusion over Greece's position on this issue. Greece isn't asking the Republic of Macedonia to abandon the name "Macedonia". They're only asking the country to adopt an *official* name that geographicaly distinguishes the country from Greek Macedonia. The country will still be colloquially referred to as "Macedonia", but the official name [whatever that may be] will make a geographic distinction between the country and the greater geographic region of the same name. Now, we can agree or disagree with Greece's demand, but let's please make Greece's position clear.
As for Macedonian irrendentism, it exists and surfaces in message boards and blogs across the internet whenever this issue is debated. You'll see comments about Greece "taking the region away from Macedonia" in 1913. Actually, the multiethnic and multilingual region was part of the decaying Ottoman Empire (there was no sovereign Macedonian state) and was divided up between Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, and Greece (Greece taking the part where ethnic Greeks outnumbered other ethnic groups) while the remnants of the Ottoman Empire evolved into a modern nation-state now called the Republic of Turkey. There was no Macedonian state whose "land was stolen" and such comments on the internet only surface the irridentist sentiment that exists among a segment of the [ethnic] Macedonian population. The Republic of Macedonia is a newly sovereign state, and -naturally- there's a bit of nationalism at the moment, which has yet to die down. I'm not denying that there is an [ethnic] Macedonian minority within Greece, nor trying to deflect criticism of the treatment of this mminority. My point here is that Macedonian irridentism does exist, and it is in no way unreasonable for Greece to be on the alert.
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The link provided by "read this" leads to a Web page that was created by Bill Nicholov, a well known propagandist. This person, as mentioned in his website, refers to himself as the President of "Macedonian Human Rights Movement International" which is based in Canada.
To see the particular brand of hatred espoused by this individual towards Greeks simply google for: Bill Nicholov, FYROM, propaganda.
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There seems to be some general confusion over Greece's position on this issue.
According to the Interim Accord of 1995 between Greece and Macedonia:
http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/95-27866.html
Article 11.1:
"The Party of the First Part agrees not to object to the application by or the membership of the Party of the Second Part in international, multilateral and regional organizations and institutions of which the Party of the First Part is a member;"
Greece veto at the Bucharest summit was a direct violation of the international law by directly forbidding Macedonia to enter NATO under its constitutional, provisional (UN) or proposed (UN negotiator Nimetz's proposal) name.
The UN last proposal was "Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)". It contains a geographical reference. Greece's veto disregarded this proposal, and they still continue to sell the story about their wish for a geographical reference.
Greece claims they are afraid of a new destabilization of the region, and yet, vetoed Macedonian ascension to NATO, a move that would have contributed to the stabilization of the region.
Therefore one can question if the real motives behind Greek foreign politics are indeed connected with, as it appears, their problem with other countries names.
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The Greek pronunciation would be Fear'em, which is precisely the point. To Greeks it looks suspicious that Skopje won't adapt its name even to enjoy the benefits of NATO and EU membership. And it certainly needs these. JK Galbraith tells of how the west sank money in after WWII and it was carried by the other states of the Yugoslav Federation. I used to enjoy going there and was a frequent visitor but, I was there not long ago and it has declined sadly since the Tito era. And there's tension(s) in the air.The thing is, it's simply not viable as it is and unless a solution is found, I doubt very much whether it will still exist in five-ten years, assuming Kosovo's independence becomes more generally accepted. Now if I can see this, the politicians there surely can, too. And this takes us back to "What are they playing at?".
By the way, despite the fact that "Macedonian" is as close to Western Bulgarian as Yorkshire is to Lancashire, Skopje insists on having a translator at inter-governmental meetings. I think you can imagine why.
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Kyonite, ad hominem attacks will do you no good.
if you are questioning the validity of my source, can you please point out which of the 27 referenced documents in it are not true?
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Macedonian national consciousness amongst Slav-speakers evolved in an unusual way. To simplify:
This was the last territory to remain within the Ottoman Empire. The conscious identity of the Slav-speaking Christians who then formed the majority of the population in this region (outside of Salonika, which was mostly inhabited by Jews, Greeks, Turks and Slavs) was somewhat fluid: as being mostly peasants living for centuries under Ottoman rule, they would usually answer 'Christians' when asked as to their identity. Under threat, which they often were, they would answer whatever was required, e.g. Bulgarian, Serb, even Greek in some parts.
Seeing the imminent collapse of the Ottoman Empire at the turn of the century, the relatively new modern states of Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece all competed for the territory and the identity of the inhabitants (often through churches and church schools).
The violent struggle waged by these states and the often brutal and destabilising measures they took to force their will on the inhabitants, together with Great Power manipulation, drove a number of educated exiles (like Misirkov) to argue that the safest future for the people here lay in a new autonomous state: Macedonia. Thus consciousness as Macedonians emerged in the late nineteenth century.
At that time, the name was not an issue for Greece: the area Greece wanted, which included an area that was inhabited mostly by what they called Bulgarophones, was 'Northern Greece'. The Greek state embarked on a brutal tactic of ethnic cleansing to gain Northern Greece, resulting in the forced expulsion of many thousands of Slav-speakers. In their place were settled the Greek refugees from Greece's failed attempt to recapture Asia Minor in the early 1920s.
To unite their state, Greece pursued a virulent form of ethnic nationalism: unity was all-important to forge the modern state.
Those Slavs that remained in northern Greece at the end of the Second World War saw history repeat itself. As their only hope for survival lay with the Greek Communists in the Civil War, they suffered a similar but even worse fate than the Greek Communists: they were forced into exile en masse--thousands of families separated, children separated from their parents and sent across the world.
These are periods in Greek history which Greece has difficulty coming to terms with even today. There can be little doubt that this 'denial' is part of the motivation for Greece's denial of the national identity of Macedonians.
In the Republic of Macedonia, there is scarcely a soul who is foolish enough to aspire to 'repopulating' the areas which were once inhabited by Slavs in Northern Greece. There is, however, a strong desire to see Greek acknowledge the past and to recognise their conscious identity. (Behind the diplomacy, there is a contemptuous dismissal of the ethnic identity of Macedonians amongst the nationalist Greek population: 'they are Bulgarians', 'they are gypsies' is commonly heard.
The Greek stance has unfortunately encouraged tit-for-tat identity-building myths in Macedonia. This is particularly embarrassing when it comes to Ancient Macedonia and that city-burning butcher, Alexander 'the Great'. Farcical pseudo-history is now flourishing. Politicians in Greece, meanwhile, have never foregone a vote-winning opportunity to stoke up similar rubbish amongst the population of Greek Macedonia. There has been a woeful lack of responsibility on the part of the political leaders and educators on both sides of the border.
It is time for the EU to propose positive measures to reach a consensus about certain episodes in the shared histories of these peoples.
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2 comments:
1. Tito proposed to create a Federation of the Danube to spread his Yugoslav model to the whole of the Balkans. This is the only scheme I know of that could successfully contain all the actual and potential nationalistic pressures: perhaps one day integration into the EU could do it, but resolving problems like this one doesn't look easy under present circumstances.
2. There is a little bit more to this question as I understand things. While Greek classical archaeology has been done very thoroughly, without a corresponding national project, Macedonian archaeology (ie Philip and Alexander's Macedonia) has not been promoted or studied with anything like as much energy. There is plenty of scope for this, however, and the Greeks must be aware of the potential of such an approach, since they themselves have adopted classical names, symbols, etc. in reconstructing their own identity, successfully convincing the rest of the world that they are not in fact an Ottoman remnant with a mixed population but the noble heirs of Odysseus and Plato. It would be an entirely reasonable project for FYROM to undertake a similar scholarly approach, the main limitation being money, which would have to come from Western universities and foundations. Any takers?
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ChristopherLord,
If you feel that you are Greek, you are a Greek and the whole of the Greek inheritance and history is yours. I am not even the one who stated this. Aristotle did, 2355 years ago. It holds true today.
___
"And Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece."
(Strabo VII, Frg. 9 [Loeb, H.L. Jones])
Also the first president of FYROM president Mr. Kiro Gligorov confirmed
twice that they are not related to the ancient Macedonians:
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not
descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February
26, 1992, p. 35. )
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have
no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The ancient
Macedonians no longer exist, they had disappeared from history long time
ago. Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century (A.D)."
(from the Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992)
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1. The suppression of the ethnic Macedonian minority in Greece is the inspiration for every racist, every fascist, every ethnic cleanser in the Balkans (all under the watchful eye of Nato and the EU). If every book and article written regarding all the recent Balkans Wars, had started with this sentence, then the analysis of what went wrong in the former Yugoslavia would have been more intelligent. Very few books even mentioned it, so most books on the Balkans were way off the mark.
2. It is the reason why Yugoslavia disintegrated. It is the reason why Albanians in Kosovo want independence and why the Serbs of Kosovo will now seek partition. It is the reason why war will return to Macedonia in the near future. No one can trust Nato or the EU to support human rights because of of the plight of ethnic Macedonians in Greece. That is still a fact, which makes Macedonian rights in Greece relevant today.
3. In the context of the "name dispute", "slav" or even "slav Macedonian" aquire all the baggage associated with the Greek position that the ethnicity of Macedonians is a fiction of Tito. It is endorsing cultural genocide ... pure and simple.
4. Please don't treat this issue as a curiosity, a zoo specimen, if you will. What is really important is to interview Sarkozy and company, who supported Greece and ask the question:
Are Greece's values regarding minority rights Nato values? Are EU values? Will Kosovo be admitted into Nato if the Serbs are treated the way that ethnic Macedonians are treated in Greece?
5. Finally go interview journalists at Reuters, AP, the Guardian and talk to yourself and friinds at the BBC and ask this question:
In describing this dispute, why only mention the Greece concerns about Macedonian irredentism, but not Macedonian concerns about Greece Below is one of the few mentions of Greek discrimination in a major newspaper.
"The Greek civil war saw subversive attacks launched from Macedonian soil, and ended with tens of thousands of ethnic Macedonians fleeing their homes. Those Macedonians who stayed behind, like other minorities in Greece, still lack fundamental rights. Property issues have never been fully resolved. (Edward P. Joseph,A Risky End Game, Monday, March 31, 2008, "International Herald Tribune,
6. It's a plot I tell ya!
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A Macedonian minority in the Greek province of Macedonia? Ethnic cleansing in the Greek province of Macedonia? What do these lies contribute to? They create a non-sensical and pervasive sense of loss. The "slavonic Macedonians" that grow up with these continuing lies believe that the Greeks "appropriated their history" and "occupied their land", all figments of imagination in the making of a nation.
Ethnogenesis is always based on myths but the myths are, on the whole, liberating. The bogeyman (in this case the Greeks) is ultimately defeated. The problem with the ethnogenesis as being attempted by the Slav Macedonists of whom Mr. Nicholov is the worse possible example is that it is "enslaving" and "degrading" not only because the Greeks are not defeated but because of the growing dependence of FYROM on Greece (a fact that further infuriates Slav Macedonists like Mr. Nicholov). Instead of creating myths around the Slavic tribes that created the population of modern FYROM (and they are clearly known), these tribes and any discussion about them has disappeared from the lexicon of the Slav Macedonists. This is amazing, because the modern Macedonists
speak their language, have their customs and dwell on their achievement, whatever this may be. One thing is for sure. They will not mention it.
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Modern Greeks are always questioning other balkan peoples rights to ancient names, who in the hell are these modern Greeks anyway. some of you journalists should do some historical research and find out. Why not start with the great British philhellene and fighter for Greek freedom in the misnamed Greek war of Independence, in the1820s.
Here is a snipet for you uncritical and uninformed British journalists, hope it wets your appetite for some real knowledge about whose who in the balkans and why people in glass houses should never throw stones.
According to G. Finlay in his 'History of the Greek Revolution volume 1 - 1861: "The Albanian population occupies most of ancient Greece. Albanians now occupy all Attica and Megaris, Boetia and Locris. They occupy the whole ofCorinthia and Argolis, extending themselves into the northern part of Ardadia and eastern Archaia..."
Modern Greeks have as much in common with the ancient Hellenes as Micky Mouse has with Hamlet. Neo Hellenic spin is making you all too dizzy to think straight, its time you all did some homework.
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Im totally neutral on this, but it seems that a pretty reasonable Greek position as follows;
"New Macedonia, North Macedonia: names like this, of course, meet our proposal which is Macedonia with a geographical objective. That means they will not monopolise the whole of Macedonia. I would never accept that the Greek position is a childish position. Whoever has an opinion about the region, we are the neighbours, we have to live here."
If people argue through and settle amicably points that "seem silly", later recriminations and resentments are snuffed out. It is the British way to paper over cracks and leave things to fester.
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A ridiculous situation, caused only by the Greeks.
With it's last neighbours also moving to NATO and EU membership, Macedonia is no threat at all for Greece.
Greece is really shooting itself in the foot with it's Balkan relations - many companies investing in its neighbours are held back and as a result (even though Greece is already a major player), and jobs chances for Greeks are much less than they could be. In the meantime, investors from other countries are filling the gap.
Remember what happened when Greece closed the Macedonian for trade? Its own harbour at Thessaloniki nearly went broke and they hastily had to lift the embargo as they were so dependent on trade through and with Macedonia.
It's all a petty, childish losing-face "tactic" that the pompous Greek politicians can't back out of, dragging the population and media with them.
No surprise perhaps from a country that had one of the most vicious civil wars ever in Europe right after WW2, and a country with deeply ingrained mistrust of foreigners, the denial of the existence of other ethnicities, and a very nasty nationalistic state religion that allows for no others.
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The problem is that there is no "Macedonian" nation. Macedonia is a geographical region in which different ethnic groups (Greeks, Slavs, Turks, Jews, Albanians, Bulgarians) lived during the centuries. Each one of these groups have the right to call themselves "Macedonians" but not just "Macedonians", rather "Greek Macedonians", Slav Macedonians (FYROM) etc.
The goverment of FYROM wants to monopolize the name, the history and the whole region. The Greek goverment is asking for a different name (New, Upper, North Macedonia) in order to distinguised from Hellenic Macedonia.
As for history, the Slav Macedonias (FYROM) come to the region in the 5th-6th AD the Greek/Hellenic Macedonians lived there from 800 BC... and by the way in the Ancient World there were no borders.
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first i'd like to say that i'm bulgarian.
second, i think the balkans are the middle east in europe.
i make these two clarifications as whatever u say here, on the balkans, it has two sides equally 'right'.
above all i think the problem is not the name but the history. it's good to have 3000 years of history, it really is. however, some have to satisfy with 60, as the fyrom exists from 1945 - a weird creation of the communism.
now - back in time (if i'm wrong i'll be more than happy when corrected).
with the collapse of the ottoman empire the people of the balkans were given the right of self-determination. those who lived in the geographical region of macedonia declared themselves bulgarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Berlin). this act was viewd as dengerous from the great powers due to the fact that it established a big slav state ( bulgaria) on the balkans under the influence of tsarist russia thus the western intervention and the partition of bulgaria. later the comintern established an official policy of 'macedonisation' and after the WW II the new state was created (it is said that serbs wanted macedonians assimilated and seeing the impossibility of their plan they opted for the creation of macedonia - no serbs but no bulgarians either).
i don't have a territorial claims at macedonia, just one plea - don't manipulate history! let's live in peace and acknowledge the reality.
ps - on the balkans we all did atrocities to each other. let's sit together and write a common history book so that these barbaric acts are left in the past!!!
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The famous slavic invasions my dear neo hellenic pretenders, did not stop at the current border of modern Greece and the Republic of Macedonia , they extended deep into the balkan peninsula and even Islands as far away as Crete were overun by those pesky unwashed slavs.
So deep and thorough was their invasion of what is now modern Greece that the typography of Hellas became Slavic, even the name of the Peloponese changed to become Morea. After the Greek war of Independence place names had to be changed en massse to Rehellenise them why do you all so conveniantely forget these facts of your recent history and have to cast back to ancient times when your own modern ethnicity is so obviously non hellenic. Here are a few more snippets of modern Greek history. Most of the leaders of the war of independence did not speak Greek but spoke Albanian and Vlach. Leaders such as your first Prime minister Koundouriotis from the Island of Hydra Kolletis the Vlach and my all time favourite Bouboulina the "barbaric" Albanian speaker. In fact so widespread was this ignorance of Greek that at the first parliament at Nauphlion interpretors were needed to discuss proceedings, and one item of discussion was what should be the official language of the new nation.
I am afraid, this all you need to be Greek is to feel Greek argument doesn't wash with me, not when you so hypocritically demand that Macedonians have to some how be perfect decendents of the ancients. If its good enough for Greeks to be whatever ethnicity but still claim the heritage of ancient Hellas then why must Macedonians be subject to a different set of criteria. Where would most French sit if they all had to prove they were Franks 1000 years ago, Franks who spoke German, but i digress and forget Greeks dont call France by its self proclaimed name , they use the word Gallia, this is modern Greek stupidity and confusion at its best or worst , you decide.
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Why does it amount to 'a monopoly' to call oneself after a region in which 100% of one's territory is situated?
Yes, some areas of this loosely-defined geographical region have become parts of other states: Greece, Bulgaria and Albania. And Greece has a northern province called Macedonia, too. Does that mean the northern province of Greece is claiming a monopoly on the name? Several countries are named after historical regions which were larger than the territories those states now occupy: it's not exclusive to others.
This is partly about how one defines a nation. For Greeks (and Bulgarians) it seems a nation is some organic ethnic unity that by some mystical destiny becomes a state. To reinforce this myth, they claim a spurious ethnic continuity with anyone who ever lived there. For others, a nation is a a state covering a certain territory in which many groups might live.
Until Greece ceases to see a nation in this puerile way, it will always have problems with other concepts of nation and nationality.
As for Alexander as an identity-building icon, I think Macedonia should let Greeks have him for themselves: a petulant monster who burnt Thebes to the ground and let his soldiers loose on Persepolis now hailed as a bearer of Hellenic civilisation...a man they know in Asia as the 'two horned devil'.
The sad thing is that Greek nationalism has spread into Macedonia and young Macedonians are forgetting their Slav forefathers who died for their country's freedom from their rapacious neighbours and are now falling for a pointless myth of genetic descent from ancient Macedonians who, whoever they started off as, became absorbed into the Hellenic cultural orbit.
Macedonia should embrace its status as a kind of post-modern nation without sins to cover up in its past. This propaganda train crash with Greece will only lead to Macedonians getting even more hurt than they already are.
Meanwhile Greece should consider the dubious benefits of having Bulgaria as its enlarged northern neighbour if its policies towards Macedonia manage to break up the state.
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The Greeks' point actually makes a lot of sense, when taken with what has been occurring and already has occurred in Europe. European nations have already achieved independence from larger states--such as the Czech Republic and Slovakia, the Baltic states, even Norway. For Greece, there are the next door former Yugoslavs, who broke up by ethnicity into a bunch of little statelets, culminating (so far) with Kosovo.
Then there are those nations and countries who still aspire to independent statehood. There are the Basques in Iberia and France. The French also have the Corsicans to deal with. The UK has Scotland--peaceful, but many still pushing for independence. Belgium was debated as a potential break-up state.
So the Greeks have an argument that at some point the Macedonian 'nation' might try to take over the region of Macedonia, which includes a large chunk of Greece, and so Greece is trying to nip this in the bud by the non-violent, though seemingly nit-picky, tactic of making the country of Macedonia pick a name other than Macedonia.
Opposing Greece's stance, it could be pointed out that Greece is much more powerful than Macedonia (the former Yugoslav Republic), and probably will be so in future. So why the anal-retentiveness?
After all, in the United States, there is the state of California while in Mexico there is Baja California Norte and Baja California Sur. Neither Mexico nor the United States figures that one side will hostilely take over some of the Californias from the other. And they were once one political entity--Alta California became the American state. The same thing with Texas and the Mexican state of Coahuila. They were once unified, but, again, neither side expects a military force rushing in to take over, by force, the other side.
Granted, this has a enormous lot to do with European (and, in general, almost all Old World--so Asia and Africa, too) attitudes toward immutable ethnicities and nationalities. Things would be a whole bunch easier if people would promote the idea that an individual can choose his nationality and ethnicity.
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When/if Scotland becomes independent, it will be called, Scotland, Alba, Scotia, Caledonia or North Britain.
It cannot be called "Britain".
People who belittle this argument as insignificant are pompous.
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Please look up the 1913 Treaty of Bucharest, as it identifies that Macedonia was conquered by Greece and taken over in 1913.
Furthermore, please look up the Court ruling of Ouranio Toxo v. Greece with the Eur. Court of Human Rights because the final ruling in the case establishes that Greece is violating the Human Rights of its very own Greek Citizens who are of Macedonian National Origin based on race, national origin, and religion.
Finally, Greece's motivation to veto Macedonia and to change Macedonia's name is premised on Greece refusing to recognize it's ethnic minorities in its own country and in the Republic of Macedonia.
The Greek citizens of Macedonian ethnicity who are suffering because of the Greek government discrimination have a formed a political party called "EFA (European Free Alliance) Macedonian Political Party in Greece" to fight against the genocide and oppression of their very own Greek government.
These poor oppressed people have a website and contact information in Greece. They can attest to the serious human rights violations noted in the case of Ouranio Toxo v Greece.
It is time for Europe to come to grips with the Macedonian problem, the E.U. Parliament must impose sanctions on the Greek Government for violating article 6 and 11 of the Convention.
Finally, there are real people in Greece who are Macedonians and they need real help from the dictatorial genocide they are living with. Greece is no different from Serbia. What Serbia was doing to the people of Kosovo, Greece is effectively doing to the people who are of Macedonian Origin in order to try to hold on to the Macedonian territory that Greece acquired in 1913.
There is nothing ancient about 1913, there are still survivors of the genocide. More Human Rights court cases are on there way.
Please look up EFA Rainbow Macedonian Political Party in Greece for the truth!
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To understand the Greek objections you have to remind yourself of the row between France and Britain as to the latter's demand to go by the name 'Great Britain'. At the end, the French position prevailed and the country is now called 'United Kingdom'. It surely did not go down well.
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Mark, this is a complicated topic, and your analysis, I loathe to say, does not do justice to it. I have to make clear that I am Greek, and no doubt I cannot claim to be a totally impartial observer, but I also hope that I have the common sense and the historical skills to see beyond the official Greek position. Are the modern Greeks nationalistic? I am afraid they are, and this is manifest in areas beyond the name dispute. Are they more nationalistic than their neighbours? I think they are not. But these general principles aside, let’s see the core of the problem: Greece wants the Republic of Macedonia to change its name. This is very problematic. Not because of the concerns underlying this request (concerns some of which I endorse), but simply because I find it extremely difficult to see why a nation would agree to having its name changed. I have met several ethnic Macedonians outside Greece, mostly well-educated young people, and I never once dared to suggest that they stopped calling themselves Macedonians. Yet, as a Greek I find it extremely difficult to call them Macedonians (I simply avoid using expressions that might make me use the term). Not because I feel that by doing so I betray my compatriots, but because the term itself has different connotations: it evokes Philip II and Alexander the Great (admittedly a nasty individual) and of the Greeks inhabitants of Macedonia who also themselves Macedonians. I mentioned the Greek inhabitants of Macedonia, and then I realized that I meant the Greek region of Macedonian. And therein lies the problem: every time that Macedonia is mentioned I feel obliged to specify what I mean. I am sure that you are clever enough to understand what I am talking about.
Back to nationalism: there are indeed many (too many actually) Greeks who use insulting terms when they refer to ethnic Macedonians. But the opposite is true as well. Just google ‘Macedonia’, go to youtube, join any discussion forum, and you will *immediately* see that there are as many hotheaded nationalists on the other side. For anyone experienced enough to read behind the lines, it will be clear that some of them have sneaked into your forum: DNA analysis that proves the Greeks are not Greek after all, genocide etc. Genocide, or ethnic cleansing there was not, that much I can tell. Your reader ‘Misirkov’ starts with a rather good analysis, before resorting to what I feel is a distorted historical reading: “brutal tactic of ethnic cleansing” is his words. This is true only to some extent. The other side of the coin is that thousands of Greeks were forced to flee those areas of the Ottoman Empire that did not pass under Greek control after the Balkan Wars. The result was an effective exchange of populations. As for the Slavs who were forced to flee after the defeat of the communists in the Greek Civil War, this is sadly true, but still they were fewer than the thousands of non-Slavs who were also forced to flee. The point is that they were all forced into exile because they were communists. But of course not all Slavs were communists, and those who were not stayed on. And this brings us to the other big issue, the minorities: is there an ethnic Macedonian minority in Greece today? No doubt there is. There are thousands of people (demographics unknown, but I would say something like 40,000) who are practically bilingual. The majority of them probably identify themselves as Greeks, but there is a considerable minority that sees itself as ethnic Macedonian. The Greek state (and possibly the Greek public opinion) stubbornly refuses to acknowledge this fact for a thousand wrong reasons, but also for a good one: if the Slav minority call themselves Macedonians, then what are the Greek Macedonians going to call themselves? To the obvious answer “just that, Greek Macedonians”, the reply is equally obvious: “then the minority should be identified as Slav Macedonians”. Which brings us back to the original question about the name; not only the name of a country but also the name of two culturally different peoples who both want to monopolize the term.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
On, 18 April 2008 "The American Chronicle" ran an article written by, Steve Gligorov, Esq.
The article says:
On October 20, 2005, the European Court of Human Rights issued a final ruling in the case of Ouranio Toxo and Others v. Greece (application no. 74989/01). The Court unanimously held that Greece violated Articles 11 and 6 of the European Convention because Greece denied Greek citizens of Macedonian national origin, who are a minority in Greece, the right to freedom of assembly, freedom of association, and equal protection of laws.
Members of the "EFA [European Free Alliance] Rainbow Political Party of the Macedonian Minority in Greece" brought suit against Greece alleging government sponsored discrimination based on national origin, ethnicity, and religious discrimination.
Nearly three years later, Greece has not taken any affirmative steps to address and abide by the Court decision. As a result, on April 17, 2008, the EFA – European Political Party, in cooperation with the Federation of Western Thrace Turks in Europe (ABTTF), EFA – Rainbow (association of the Macedonian minority of Greece) and the Federal Union of the European Nationalities (FUEN) organized an international panel discussion in the European Parliament, in Brussels, titled "Ignored Minorities in Greece: Western Thrace Turks and Macedonians."
The EFA message in Brussels was clear: "Greece's decision to veto an invitation to the Republic of Macedonia to join NATO is an irresponsible act motivated by its refusal to recognize the existence of a distinct Macedonian ethnic identity in the Republic of Macedonia as well as in Greece," which in part led to a violation of Articles 11 and 6 under the case of Ouranio Toxo v. Greece.
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Still on the topic of nationalism, the comment of your reader Marcokika is a prime example. The treaty of Bucharest divided the 'spoils of war', the Ottoman province of Macedonia between the combatants. It did not name Greece as illegal conqueror of alien territory. There is no 'dictatorial genocide' in Greece, for God's sake. There is discrimination against minorities (see my previous post), but no 'genocide'. Words have started losing their true meaning. There is not a single case of murder of an ethnic Macedonian after 1949. I doubt there are many survivors from the "1913 genocide". As a matter of fact there was no genocide. And no, Greece is not trying "to hold on to the Macedonian territory that Greece acquired in 1913". You hold on something that you are in danger of losing, and this is clearly not the case with the Greek region of Macedonia. I should lodged a complaint about the comment in question, but anyway...
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hi-ball's comment is one of the most reasonable approaches I have seen taken to this issue from either side. However, it is just such reasonableness that Greek nationalists fear, for it reveals the fairly weak case (though a case nonetheless) for pushing the hard task of persuading a country and what have become a people to change their name.
In a way, Greece has shot itself in the foot by taking such an entrenched position for so long. If the very latest tactics pursued by Bakoyannis--apparently offering rewards for concessions in the form of lifting visa restrictions and helping development--had been pursued in the 90s instead of stirring up hysteria in Salonika, then the sad truth is that the impoverished people of this nation might have quickly come to a compromise. (Look at how many Macedonians are so desperate for a better life and a way out of their prison that they are willing to take Bulgarian nationality.)
If the voices of hi-ball and other Greeks with rational positions were heard in higher places in Greek society, this mess could be sorted out without indignity.
As it is, my prediction is that Macedonia will back down soon and accept something like New Macedonia. But it's hard to sell that to the people--I hope it's not too late. There's not much question of 'justice' about it, of course, only realpolitik.
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That was a very enjoyable overview of the current debate, but I must forward the idea that the history of this region is more difficult than many comments seam to understand. The history of this area does not form a legal basis for future negotiations but rather it simply reflects the relationship between the two nations.
Every greek school child is taught at an early age that Macedonia is Greece since 3000 BC and that Alexandre the Great was the the first to end the threat posed by the barbarians in the North who would swoop down the planes attacking greek tribes. A similar threat from the North was perceived during the days of the Ottomans when Albanian mercenaries used to terrorize the population. And during the 2nd World War, a large section of Greece's Northern frontier was annexed by the Bulgarians. And yes, during the civil war in the 40-50s the communist guerillas were trained and supplied just across the border in the North as well. Today, the Northern border is perceived by Greeks as a security threat that is tied to the newer issues of organized crime and trafficking.
The point being, YES, there is a longstanding history here, but instead of mediation efforts focusing on certain historical legal arguments, there needs to be renewed efforts at allaying the fears of the Greek population who for 1000s of years has viewed their Northern borders with anxiety.
(In addition, mediation efforts were seriously hampered by the American's choice to use tough language with the Greeks, as anyone who knows about Greek history will assert there is still some national resentment towards American influence in the region dating back to the US supported Junta government in the 70s)
Thus, I will argue that considering this long relationship, Greece's leaders have no choice but to recognize the overwhelming demands of their public in seeking a resolution. If anything, it is remarkable that the Greek's have even consented to using 'Northern' or 'Upper' Macedonia as an option. Therefore, it is foreseeable that there are 2 outcomes for this situation:
1) If a short term solution is going to be enacted it will only arise after the Skopje government makes further concessions to Athens OR
2) another few decades pass and the Greeks slowly learn to begrudgingly accept further realities about their neighbors to the North, while in the meantime the Macedonian population is forced to suffer in limbo.
(***Likewise, I would like to note that 1913 marked the end of the Balkan wars in which all parties involved were accused of atrocities following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, so I must say that it is truly quite absurd to single out the Greeks as the genocidal bunch in this region. Especially when some comments presuppose that these actions have meant greece violating their current commitments to the EU!)
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In 1925 Time Magazine captured a bit of history in an article they titled "Macedonian Echo." I doubt Time Magazine had any motivation to lie back in 1925.
The article says, in relevant part:
"Long ago, in the days of Philip of Macedon, when whole armies hurled themselves against the dread Macedonian phalanx, Macedonia was a great and independent country. Today, Macedonia is merely a geographical expression; its territories are divided principally between Yugoslavia and Greece.
If the country is nonexistent, the people are not. They have managed, directly or indirectly, to make more Balkan blood flow in the past 20 years than have any other people. Since the War, their activities have shown no sign of abating. Greece and Yugoslavia and Bulgaria have been much troubled by them."
Also, in 1918, the U.S. National Board for Historical Service published its "Handbook for the Diplomatic History: Europe, Asia, and Africa, 1879-1914" under the auspice of the Government Printing Office in Washington, D.C.
The U.S. Handbook of 1918 notes that a sizable portion of the territory known as "Macedonia" was seized by Greece in 1913 under the Treaty of Bucharest. Specifically, this important territorial concession of 1913 split Macedonia and "increased the area of Greece from 25,014 to 41,933 square miles and her population from 2,660,000 to 4,363,000."
I doubt there was any reason for the U.S. Government Handbook and Time Magazine to misinform anyone.
In fact, I believe both these neutral sources which were printed and published long before either Stalin or Tito ever came to power. Since it is Greece's position that the Republic of Macedonia and people Macedonian ethnicity were allegedly fictionally created by Stalin or Tito.
Taken in total, the final Euro Court ruling in the case of Ouranio Toxo v Greece, the EFA Macedonian Political Party currently suffering in Greece, the U.S. Government Handbook published in the 1918's, and Time Magazine's piece published in 1925, it just seems that Greece must really take a deep breadth and maybe come to piece with some of the minorities that are being discriminated there.
It took American Supreme Court rulings to force social change against the racism that was happening against African Americans.
Now it is time for the Greek Government to open up to E.U. Union principals and stop the ethnic, religious and other national origin discrimination campaigns against these minorities.
If the Greek Government comes clean, all people in that region can finally live FREE under one E.U. Constitution. Lets do everything we can to end the hate and start the healing! First, someone must atleast admit that there is a discrimination problem.
It seems weird to try to ignore the cries for help from Greek citizens in Greece who took the time to file suit for their own rights which are being violated in their own country. Something must change or things will spiral out of control.
This is not a NAME issue, but it is clearly a civil and human rights matter.
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There is a substantial group of people who self identify as ethnic Macedonians, speaking the Macedonian language. The so called name issue is fundamentally one of denial of human rights to Macedonians.
Not many ethnic Macedonians are left in Greece since Macedonia became part of Greece in 1913. Greece has practiced a relentless policy of assimilation, including the banning of the speaking of Macedonian, and the hellenization of names of both people and places in that part of Macedonia that falls within Greece. Many ethnic Macedonians emigrated to America, Canada and Australia and ethnic Greeks from Asia Minor were resettled into the Macedonian territory in Greece.
Greece does not recognise the Macedonian language or the ethnic Macedonian minority within its own borders. The non recognition of ethnic Macedonians is the real reason why Greece wants the Republic of Macedonia to change its name - because if Greece recognised the Republic of Macedonia, it would also be an admission that there is a Macedonian ethnicity.
Greece's maltreatment of Macedonians would be uncovered, and Macedonians would have to be given their rights in Greece - especially the right to speak and learn their own language.
Macedonians basic human rights to self identify are being violated by Greece's position.
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As an impartial observer I agree that Greece's position is both childish and ridiculous. Furthermore given the precariousness of the political situation in the Balkans, it is also irresponsible. Macedonia has, against the odds, been a good example to the other countries of the region by by and large peacefully taking account of all its citizens human rights as well as pressing ahead with painful reforms in order to join NATO and the EU. Both NATO and the EU should put significant pressure on Greece to end their threat to veto Macedonia's entry and stop the risk of further de-stabilising the region.
Greece should have no more right to influence what Macedonia calls itself than Macedonia has to force Greece to change the name of its northern province. Both regions were part of what was historically Macedonia and for Greeks to claim rights to the name on the basis of spurious claims to be the rightful heirs of the ancient Macedonians is also ridiculous. Modern Greeks ethnicity is no doubt as diluted by other nationalities such as Turk, Albanian, Vlach and Armenian as that of the Macedonians. The claims to ethnic purity and nationalism bring to mind Nazi Germany.
Mark Mardell should send a transcript of this blog to both NATO and the EU to make clear the views of non-Greeks and non-Macedonians and stop the Greek government's rash stance before it results in further strife in the Balkans.
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Why isn't the author of this article mention anything about the maps that FYROM is presenting with parts of Northern Greece in them and the FYROM president accepting them? Why isn't the author of this article say anything about the pressure and blackmail that a sovereign, indepedent country such as Greece got from the US in order to drop the veto?
I am Greek Macedonian and I find shocking the fact that you Mr. Mardell are once again presenting half the truth. Yes there are minorities of Fyrom Macedonians in northern Greece like the minorities of Greeks living in Skopje and noone ever says anything about it. Yes there have been clashes in the past and that should not be forgotten but what about the nationalist movements inside FYROM that are in government and they do want to get back to their homeland as they say Greek Macedonia and Thessaloniki. You haven't mentioned anything about the new airport FUROM built and purposedly named Alexander the Great. This is our history and history and language are two of the most important things a country can have. We learn from history to avoid mistakes in the future. Instead Mr. Mardell you would prefer us Greeks to completely forget about it and accept what the US is imposing.
Oh by the way, Athens in the US is a bit far away to have any nationalist movements. FYROM is only a few miles away from Greek Macedonia.
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The main reason of the Greek fear to recognise the existence of the Macedonian nation is the fact that Greece made ethnic cleansing of Macedonians from their “Northern Territory” in the Greek Civil War of 1949. Greek administration has been present in Macedonia only since 1913 (Bucharest Treaty), after the Balkan Wars, when Greece got a territory that has never been Greek before. Macedonia was never a part of Greece before that. It was a long time a region of the Ottoman Empire (since the 14th century). Until 1930s, Greece called the current three regions of Western, Central and Eastern Makedonia by the name of New Territories, when they changed it to Northern Territories or Northern Greece. It is only in 1988 that Greece suddenly, changed the name to Western, Central and Eastern Makedonia. Even the current Greek Ministry for Makedonia and Thrace, has been Ministry for Northern Greece and Thrace until 1988. Greece ignores the existence of Macedonians (and other ethnic communities); their right to speak the Macedonian language and the right to declare them Macedonians (http://www.florina.org/). This fact is supported by the constant critics from the Council of Europe, European Court of Justice and the U.S. Department of State. It is obvious that Macedonia poses no threat to Greece. Macedonia has never shown an intention, neither has a power to attack Greece. Macedonian army is 8.000, comparing to the Hellenic armed forces of 180.000.
In summary, there are mainly two reasons for the Greek fear from the Macedonian name: The first reason is materialistic; the fact that many people who have been driven from their homes in 1949 and whose properties were confiscated, are still alive. These people have right to demand their property back, and Greece is not willing to compensate them. The second reason is the fact that over the past 17 years this issue has evolved into an extreme Greek nationalism and a possible withdrawal from the “hard line” on the Macedonian question will result in a loss of power of the governing political parties.
Finally, we as Europeans, have to take a proper action to stop the dangerous Greek nationalism and allow Macedonians to become a part of the EU (and/or NATO) under the name they have chosen for themselves.
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I am sad to see that the nationalism which has caused the Balkans so much trouble in the past is still quite strong, and some people prefer to focus on re-interpreting ancient history rather solving the problems of the area.
The Greek government says that a name change is in order, because 'Macedonia' is unacceptable to them. Then they should be similarly obliged to change the name of their province of Macedonia, to avoid confusion as well. Perhaps 'Greek Macedonia' would be a good choice, to emphasize that the province is a part of Greece.
And before the Greeks start saying that their province has been named Macedonia for many years, the Yugoslav province was also named Macedonia for many years. It is not fair for the Greeks to insist on a name change for someone else if they are not willing to do the same.
And, to be honest, I do think it is somewhat childish and ridiculous that a 'grown-up' nation like Greece is afraid. If the Greeks treated the Greek Macedonians properly (i.e. fairly, without prejudice, as any other Greek would be treated) there would not be a problem with Macedonian nationalism. And I agree with the previous poster that the Greek insistence on a name change is feeding this nationalism.
But the most childish and ridiculous thing of all, is that nations are unable to admit that they make mistakes. Japanese won't apologize for Korean 'sex workers' in WWII, Serbs won't admit to genocide in Kosovo, and so on...
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I think the name dispute has already been settled, Greece refers to the northern part as Greek Macedonia so why does Macedonia have to change it's name??
In 1920 the then Greek government produced a book that was printed in the Macedoinan language for the Macedonian people who lived Norhtern Greece( I think this is an admission that there are other ethnic peoples greece) , this book was created to satisfy the superpowers of that time on humanaterian grounds. ( I can post a copy of this book to you Mark, if want to do any further research).
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As someone born and raised in the FBCA (Former British Colonies in America) somebody please remind me why Europeans aren't as stupid as they seem and should be take seriously.
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Sir, a well balanced article though to complete the picture it would be good to cross the border and hear the "other" view as well.
I am puzzled that no independent historians, linguists and anthropologists have the courage to speak out clearly and loudly about the matter. I believe by doing so they would "clear" the air and put more pressure on the ineffective and corrupt international community which appears to be sitting and waiting for Macedonia and Greece to drag themselves (and the whole region) into another nasty conflict.
It seems to me that the core of the Greece's problem is the macedonian national identity and language and not so much the name of Greece's neighbour. How else would one interpret Ms Bakoyannis' reaction to the US deputy foreign secretary's recent statements that the macedonian nation and language are a fact?
It is sad that this ridiculous dispute has created a lot of hatred among the two nations especially among the youth, and someone should put a finger to the head and ask him/herself where does this all lead? What future can there be for the two countries? Do the Greeks think that after all they've done against Macedonia in the last few decades (and especially more recently) ruining macedonia's economy and humiliating macedonia internationally the Macedonians will simply forget about it especially if they were to change their name?
The Greeks should face to their human rights abuses as much as the macedonians should do the same to the communists' human rights abuses in macedonia under Tito.
As a lawyer, I cannot see a legal argument in favour of Greek's position in all of this but then its all politics anyway, isn't it. Why do we need a system of international law and order if someone can simply abuse it without any responsibility whatsoever?
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i see many people speaking about minorities, ethnic cleasing, genocide and etc.
i'd like to aks just one question, please, answer me:
how is possible that in modern macedonia officially there are serb, turk, albanian, montenegran and greek minorities (all neighbours of macedonia apart from turkey) and there is NO bulgarian minority?? and bulgaria is a neighbour.
shall i assume that macedonians=bulgarians?
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I have one question to everyone in this blog. Why the country of FYROM is not calling itself Southern Serbia, or Eastern Albania, or Western Bulgaria and instead wants to use Macedonia from its southern neighbour Greece. Why does this country feel that they need to use geographically the name of Greece instead of its other neigbhour if they dont have in mind something else? If anyone can answer me this then I will be grateful.
For those who already started accusing Greeks of being nationalists and the superpower in the Balkans kicking everyone else, I want to remind them that its the US making the policies in this region. Why dont you search on the news about the massive US base that its planned to be built in FYROM? Why not see who is supporting primarily FYROM?
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Greece should be ashamed of itself. Its making a fool of itself on the international stage. They're just proving themselves to be as narrow minded as they claim the Americans are.
Its an absolutely shocking claim for a 21st century country to make.
If another part of the world wanted to call itself "the Scottish highlands" then frankly I wouldnt care less.
It is childish, and it is ridiculous. Still shows that country is living in the dark ages.
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I am a Ellinophile and now here's the rub "Slave Macedonophile", Greece should accept the name because:
1. There is no military threat, never was and never will be.
2. Greece can be and should be the biggest investor in FYROM.
3. There is no slav minority in Norther Greece which the Macedonian slavs would join up with, the Greeks have assimilated them, full stop. I have met "Greeks" from northern Greece who remember their parents speaking a slav dialect. Classic assimilation. Classic Byzantine policy. (Those who have not been assimilated have long since emigrated to the New World).
4. There is much more of a potential destabilising threat in the region from Albania+Kosovo+Western Fyrom.
Lazar Mansvetovic
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In response to dimitri74. I repeat there are many people who are ethnic Macedonians.
This is not an abstract issue. We are talking about individuals, men, women and children, who have been raised speaking the Macedonian language, self identifying as Macedonian and wanting the most basic human right of being able to freely speak of their ethnicity without being challenged by Greeks.
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Let us argue for a moment that Fyrom should be named "Macedonia" and its citizens "Macedonias".
The following questions arise:
1. What will the Greek Macedonias be called as they form a completely distinctive (they are greek not slav) group of people?
2. Any 10 year old Greek Macedonian can read what is written on the tomb of Alexander the Great king of Macedonians. If the slavs of "Macedonia" call thenselves true "Macedonians" then why can't they understand ANYTHING written by their alleged ancestors?
3. The capital of Ancient Macedonia is in Vergina which is Greek soil. Who can stop "Macedonians" arguing in the future that Vergina is their capital and in some time in the future claim it as their capital?
4. As long as the ancient Macedonians were taking part in ancient Olympic Games (foreigners or -barbarians- were not allowed) how can anyone claim that the ancient Macedonians were not as Greek as the Ancient Athenians?
Questions and like that can go on and on.
By naming FYROM as plain Macedonia and its people Macedonians bring more problems than it solves because it is wrong from a historical and enthonlogical point of view.
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In response to Fanitsa who wrote:
"I repeat there are many people who are ethnic Macedonians.
This is not an abstract issue. We are talking about individuals, men, women and children, who have been raised speaking the Macedonian language, self identifying as Macedonian and wanting the most basic human right of being able to freely speak of their ethnicity without being challenged by Greeks."
Are you denying from myself that I am a Macedonian then just because I am Greek? And at the same time vandalizing the Greek flag and the image of the Greek Prime Minister? You can speak any language you like, noone denies that to you as long as you do not insult my country and its history. Are you going to answer me though why you present maps with Thessaloniki and Olympus in them? Have you seen any Greek map with Skopje????
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In response to Lazar Mansvetovic.
1. There is a military that does not come from FYROM but from their friends? May I ask you what was the military threat that Kosovan Albanians posed in front of Serbia? Absolutely none but they NATO behind them and they managed to make Kosovo independent.
2. Greece is the biggest investor in the country and provides 20000 jobs to them.
3. There were and still are a handful of people who have slavic origins in Northern Greece like there are Greeks in FYROM. Who speaks about them?
4. I agree.
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Mark, I would like to congratulate you for this wonderful article, for your sense of humour. Most of all I would like to congratulate you for the fact that you study and research properly a subject before writing (at least this is what I think).
I will try not to be too harsh in my comments, however, I will add at the very beginning that I find Macedonia vs Greece clash very very interesting. The main reason being that if you study this deeply and understand it, you understand very well Greek nationalism (which I call insecurity). I am Albanian, and to me the claim of any nation in the Balkans to be 'an ethnic Macedonian" is ridiculous, hence you cannot claim that a territory has a direct connection to modern times/peoples. Modern Greece is a conglomerate of many cultures, with the Greek church playing an important role in the creation of the "modern Greek" nationality. Modern history teaches that ancient Greece is a culture that ceased existing at the beginning of the new era.
Now, second, when it was first made public that Greece would veto Macedonia's entry in NATO, many journalists said that Albania would be left out too, so that both countries, Albania and Macedonia, would go in together, and the region enters such an important organisation in synchrony. Perhaps, this was Greece's intention, leave the whole area out of NATO, hoping that it would fall in the hands of extremists, and Greece would continue to be the power of the region. Greece could then also continue blackmailing both, Macedonia and Albania, the first through its name; and the second through its economic migrants, and moreover trying to artificially hellenise its population by offering Albanians who change their names to Greek ones economic support.
I congratulate Macedonia for showing dignity and not changing its name. I also hope that Albania and Macedonia will continue to have this positive cooperation, which they have during the last couple of years.
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In response to Simonski29 who wrote:
"Greece should be ashamed of itself. Its making a fool of itself on the international stage. They're just proving themselves to be as narrow minded as they claim the Americans are.
Its an absolutely shocking claim for a 21st century country to make.
If another part of the world wanted to call itself "the Scottish highlands" then frankly I wouldnt care less.
It is childish, and it is ridiculous. Still shows that country is living in the dark ages."
Your comments are shocking and your generalization shows great empathy and dislike of the Greek people who have tried for the last 15 years to resolve the FYROM-Macedonian issue without any threats, nationalistic movements or blackmail. Denying my identity as being Greek Macedonian is not childish and ridiculous. This is our history and history is sacred. Your comments are totally insulting.
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to AnonymousCalifornian:
Alta California (including Arizona), Colorado, Nevada, Utah, Santa Fé de Nuevo México (the state now called New Mexico), and part of Wyoming did not "become" US states as if by their own initiative. Mexico lost them by force in the Mexico-US war in 1848. Texas (original name Tejas) was lost in a another war in 1836. This amounted to half the territory that Mexico had at that time, and was a condition for the end of the war after US troops occupied Mexico City.
'prior to that, it had been a part of the Spanish colony of New Spain for some three centuries':
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Cession
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Mark Mardell fails to mention that the real reason for Greece Veto to Macedonia is to cover the real truth of what happened in the 1912-1913 partition of Macedonia and Greece refusal to recognize ethnic Macedonians. During the exchange of population between Turkey and Greece, Greek people were settled in the part of Macedonia that was given to them, while Macedonians were forced to leave. Fact which Greece ignores and denies. However there are still Macedonians who live there denied their basic human rights to self-identify as Macedonians and speak of their ethnicity. I suggest the BBC sends people in Greek Macedonia and talk to the ethnic Macedonians and their experiences, or to the Macedonians who were forced to leave their homes. Then people can understand what this really is about. Propaganda and lies by Greece won't change the truth.
When Europe talks about human rights I assume they are not being selective and that it applies to all countries. Macedonia is another example that there is no justice. We are punished and bullied for being Macedonians.
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In response to borajoni:
Without any proof or evidence you cannot go and generalize. You mention that modern Greeks are nothing else but a collection of different ethnicities. May I ask where on earth you managed to find this evidence and if you do have it please pass it on to the rest of us?
May I also ask how you judge the behaviour of the Fyrom Macedonians during WW2 when they embraced the Nazis because they invaded Greece? May I ask about their nationalist movements who are in government and who want to assimilate Northern Greece?
Please bring your evidence sir and then speak.
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The current PM of Greece claims to be Macedonian (related to ancient Macedonians). This claim is grotesque since Karaman is a city in southern Anatolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaman), and in the best case for him his ancestors could have arrived in Macedonia not earlier than 13th century, when the city got this name. There is no chance that an ancient Macedonian name was Karaman, simply because it is a Turkish name. But of course, nobody should prevent Mr. Karamanlis to feel himself Macedonian, as well as any other person on the planet, therefore the citizens of Republic of Macedonia who feel and declare themselves Macedonians.
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In response to perdicca.
First of all it is clear from your name that you claim that part of Greek history is actually Skopjean. Perdikas was one of the generals of Alexander and in fact Greek as he was speaking the Greek language and not a slavic dialect. Second of all you are calling Greeks nationalists without any proof except your hatred for Greeks proven by the way you write about them. Personally I feel no hatred for anyone from FYROM, I just wish the people could understand that the Americans who support them don't really want to see FYROM as a great independent country but as their puppet.
Please bring any evidence for the cleansing you mention and the genocides done by Greeks. Prove before you speak.
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In response to Tilitomova:
You mention that northern Greece was given to the Greeks which then they kicked out the ethnic Macedonians.
You dont mention that Northern Greece was liberated after a revolution by Greeks agaistn the Ottoman Empire and then the exchange of populations took place. Some of the Greeks went actually to Vardarska as FYROM was originally called and they still remain there. In a similar manner a small minority of Fyrom Macedonians stayed in northern Greece still speaking their slavic dialect which has nothing to do with the region.
Bring evidence first and then speak.
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In response to perdicca:
Once again you show pure hatred for Greeks. Did you know that a lot of the Greeks who were exchanged with Turks and came from Asia Minor had distinctive surnames asigned by their rulers of the Ottoman Empire. That doesn't mean at all that they were not Greeks. In a similar manner the Nazis put numbers and called Jewish people names to distinguish them or the star on their clothes. The Greek Prime Minister is Macedonian unlike the Fyrom Macedonias who only live in northern Macedonia and have nothing to do with Macedonians. After all Macedonians speak only one language and that is the Greek language.
Bring proof first and then speak.
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Just because there is a nation called Macedonia does not mean that Greek Macedonians cannot call themselves Macedonian. The difference is that Slavic Macedonians are not trying to tell Greek Macedonians what they can and cannot call themselves.
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Whenever anyone uses "FYROM" or "Skopje" to refer to the Republic of Macedonia, I know that serious dialogue, or debate is out of the question for two main reasons:
1) A debate can only take place where there is mutual respect between two disputing parties. Obviously that is not the case in the Macedonian/Greek dispute where the Greek position is premised on the non-existence of the ethnicity by which the other party self-identifies.
2) Greece does not respect ethnic minority rights within its own borders nor does it believe in the right of people or nations to self-identify.
With such dogmatic and offensive assumptions surely the on-going "negotiations" on the name between Macedonia and Greece as a more tedious piece from the obsolete theatre of the Absurd.
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Whenever anyone uses "FYROM" or "Skopje" to refer to the Republic of Macedonia, I know that serious dialogue, or debate is out of the question for two main reasons:
1) A debate can only take place where there is mutual respect between two disputing parties. Obviously that is not the case in the Macedonian/Greek dispute where the Greek position is premised on the non-existence of the ethnicity by which the other party self-identifies.
2) Greece does not respect ethnic minority rights within its own borders nor does it believe in the right of people or nations to self-identify.
With such dogmatic and offensive assumptions surely the on-going "negotiations" on the name between Macedonia and Greece as a more tedious piece from the obsolete theatre of the Absurd.
Aristidesodikaios
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Hows about FYROM Joining a federation with Serbia and both going back to being Yugoslavia.
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In response to dmitri74
1. You can't seriously suggest that Nato would ever side with a non-member country (fyrom) against a member state such as Greece?
2.Yes Greece is the No.1 foreign investor in Fyrom and employs 20,000? Should employ even more!!
3. Nobody speaks about the Greeks in Macedonia anymore or the Slavs in Greek Macedonian anymore because there are none in effect. Kazantzakis' Zorba included, bless him ;-))
4. I agree.
Lazar Mansvetovic
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Please take into conisderation following facts before start discussing the "name issue" or "dispute" between Greece and Macedonia:
The territory of today's Republic of Macedonia is part of the geographic territory of Macedonia which has existed in ancient Greek and ancient Roman times, and also during the Ottoman Empire. After the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire , during the Balkan wars in 1912 and 1913, it was divided between the then Greece , Serbia and Bulgaria. Today the Republic of Macedonia is a descendant of The Socialist Republic of Macedonia, which was one of the six states of the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia (SFRJ), created in 1945. With the dissolution of SFRJ in 1991, the Republic of Macedonia simply assumed its sovereignty.
In the period between 1945-1991, the name Macedonia was never disputed by Greece . For example, in its documents at the time Greece referred to Macedonia as the Socialist Republic of Macedonia. Neither was the terminology "Macedonian" ever used by Greece:
1) Today's province of Macedonia in the northern part of Greece used to be called " Northern Greece" before the 1990s.
2) Today's Greek Ministry for Macedonia and Trace used to be called the Ministry of Northern Greece.
3) Today's University of Macedonia was called the Industrial School of Thessaloniki until 1990.
4) Today's name of the Thessaloniki airport "Thessaloniki-Macedonia" was simply "Thessaloniki-Mikra" until 1992.
5)In Republic of Macedonia people have Macedonian citizenship, in Greece Greek Macedonians have Greek citizenship
6)People in Republic of Macedonia speak Macedonian language and Greek Macednonians in Greece speak Greek language
7)Republic of Macedonia named itself as Macedonia since 1944 and was the first who used the name Macedonia. According to the International law defined as"Qui prior est tempore,potior est jure" HAS PRIORITY ON THE NAME and nobody can dispute that.
8)Finally, there is a region in Belgium named Luxemburg and next is High Duchy of Luxemburg as independent state. Nobody has a problem with that.
The core of the dispute over the name of the Republic of Macedonia is Greek nationalism, which has been preventing the existence of the Macedonian national identity. One example of this is the ethnic cleansing of Macedonians by the Greek state in 1949, when more than 200,000 Macedonians were stripped off their property rights and were expelled from the territory of today's northern Greece. The Macedonians who stayed behind and live there to this day have been forced to change their Macedonian names and toponyms into Greek. They have no right to national determination, they have been banned from using their own mother tongue and have no right to political expression.
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To moonfacemonkey:
No the difference is actually that Greeks are Macedonians in terms of their history, language and customs when Skopjeans are only living in part of Macedonia. Even the ex president of FYROM said that Fyrom Macedonians should not believe they have anything in common with the ancient people. For anyone who is going to say that modern Greeks don't have anything to do with the ancient Macedonians either look at our language, history, customs and everyday life.
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hallucigenia wrote:
Some of the villagers were flying the Macedonian flag; the Greek police removed it, and apparently were pretty forceful in doing so. But in a free democracy (which Greece at least claims to be!) why shouldn't people be allowed to fly whatever flag they wish outside their house?
Please try to show the German flag in Denmark.
It's forbidden....
Good Luck!!
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To fanitsa:
Maybe the debate should start by not producing Greek flags with the svastika and the Greek Prime Minister as an SS officer.
Please be fair and see who is behind you and why.
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I find the discussion a bit childish on both sides. Why can't people simply accept that names of countries as well as their borders simply change from time to time?
History should not be used as a tool. What happened in the past belongs to the past.
For example, during the XX century the city of Lviv in Ukraine passed from Austrian to Polish to Russian (Soviet) to Ukrainian. And nobody makes a big issue out of it.
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Mr Mardell,first of all it is rude to mock national ideas and decisions of a member state of UN, EU and NATO such as Greece, just because you can't understand (or you don't want to understand) the case. The problem with Fyrom is an important problem to all Greeks and it is immature to think that Greeks will just give in to an artificial country, created by Tito as a deliberately source of problems to the whole region. So mr Mark Mardell please don't be such an arrogant and rude man. Remember 2 things.
1. Poor Fyrom, it is a small and powerless country and big bad Greece want to cause trouble to this innocent country. What Greece is afraid of? Greece is big and Fyrom is small. Shame on Greece! Big countries must not block small ones. Nobody does it. NOBODY??? SO, WHY IS USA BLOCKING CUBA FOR DECATES??? Why USA put an embargo to the poor small Cuba and caused so much humanitarian problems to the people of Cuba? What is USA afraid of this small country? So, Mr Mardell you see that Greece is only doing a small amount of what USA does for decates to a small ,poor and powerless country as Cuba. And nobody is mocking USA.
2.Why UK entered into a silly and rediculus war with Argentina over some rocks in the Atlantic, called the Falklands (islas Malvinas)??? The whole British Empire fought against poor Argentina for some rocks with some sheeps on them and this makes sence??? To fight for some sheeps and a few British residence in the middle of nowhere??? So Mr Mardell, you see why I disagree with your article?
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FYROM or ex-Vardarska was designed by Tito and currently supported by the US for one and only reason,l to build more bases and have more control in the region. Why else there are plans for the biggest US base in the Skopje at the same time the problem with the name came along?
Fyrom citizens deserve every human right they can get and a powerful stable country but not on the cost of Greece. The ethnic minorities mentioned that are suppressed by the Greek authorities are non-existent and the whole arguments stands on really thin ice.
Bring evidence first and then speak!
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To many people things that happen far from their homes seem ridiculous...BUT the view that in international affairs size always matters is extremely naive. Iraq invaded the small state of Kuwait back in 1991 and look what's happening today. Kuwait was small but had powerful allies. We Greeks are not naive nor fools. We know that a weak small state in our northern border can be very easily manipulated and be used as a trojan horse by any big power. The residents of "Macedonia" are of slavic or albanian descent . So nobody in Greece takes seriously their claims on Alexander's or Aristotle's origin. But all wars start on some phenomenally unimportant claim (world war II for example). And territorial claims of a small state can be used as an excuse by a third party to intervene in our neighbourhood, and this is of course unacceptable from us Greeks.
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To JosifLondon:
I imagine you have never been in Northern Greece and Macedonia where I come from. Otherwise you would know that the name Macedonia along with all the street names, monuments has been there FOREVER and hasn't changed as you imply in the last 20 years.
The ethnic cleansing that you mention happened from both sides but I guess you didnt know that either. Did you know that Skopjeans supported the Nazi's when they tried to invade Northern Greece? Is that how democratic you all are????
Greek nationalism has nothing to do with all that, maybe you should try with the Skopjean government first and see the hatred the have for Greeks anywhere really.
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To SimonLux:
It all would be fine but recently counties of sovereign countries such as Serbia become independent countries like Kosovo, so history has to do everything about it.
The people who call this childish are actually the ones causing all the trouble and ask from Greece to accept something completely illegal which is to stop calling itself what it is and give promises to FYROM-VARDASKA
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In response to Mansetovic:
"1. You can't seriously suggest that Nato would ever side with a non-member country (fyrom) against a member state such as Greece?"
Read first about the huge base they are planning to build in FYROM and then answer. They side with anyone that suits them, you think they would have a problem to side with Skopjea? They own NATO what are you talking about?
"2.Yes Greece is the No.1 foreign investor in Fyrom and employs 20,000? Should employ even more!!"
Why exactly should Greece employ more???? To have the svastika on the flag in return?
"3. Nobody speaks about the Greeks in Macedonia anymore or the Slavs in Greek Macedonian anymore because there are none in effect. Kazantzakis' Zorba included, bless him ;-))"
I think you wish there were none.
"4. I agree."
One thing we agree.
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I have never been to the Balkans. But when I learned that a country was vetoed by a strong NATO and EU member just because of its name triggered my curiosity. So I went to the library and picked up a book (written not by a Macedonian nor Greek, nor European, but by a Japanese) published in after the Balkan Wars (in Japanese).
It said that the three powers Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece partioned a country which was 500 years under the Ottoman Empire. A country where people differed greatly from the Greek. A country where people felt Macedonians and spoke Slavic dialect, but were denied all rights.
Being Japanese, I feel ashamed about our past (being one of the axis), but I do feel that if I were Macedonian , I would never give up my name , my culture and my language.
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JosifLondon (post #77)
You speak hard documented facts which any Greek will simply choose to dismiss unfortunately. It's hard to see the truth when you don't want to I guess. How can we have a rational decision facing a country who chooses to ignore the points you made? As far as Greeks are concerned none of which you spoke is true and the Macedonian name is theirs and has been since the dawn of time. Well, since 1990's anyway...
What a silly situation we find ourselves in. Honestly, both countries remind me of a bully and the playground weakling. Only in this scenario no one will grow up.
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In response to Nagoya.
Maybe you should read a few more books not just by Japanese historians or just Greek either and learn that the true superpowers of those days were not Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria but Britain, France, Germany. They decided how the Balkans should be split.
Well Fyrom Macedonians shouldn't give up anything they should just accept their roots and these are slavic.
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Mr Mardell,
try to say a lot of things with a few words and not the opposite, as Pythagoras said (a greek or slav?)
I don't remember anything from your article, as no single evidence is on.
A journalist express facts and he is not helping political friends.
Is Great Alexander, greek or slav?
Is ancient Macedonian language and people greek or slav?
Do they live slavs in Greek Macedonia? I rememember 2000 votes for the slav party in last elections in greece. who stops them to vote their party? are there 2.5 millions greeks in macedonia? yes or not?
Do you like greeks to close their eyes in stealing their history? who are you who can advice so the majority of Greeks? Democracy is deep rooted in Greece...we have not a monarchy
It is nice before we write against people to read and to be adviced from historians.
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In response to gmiskovski:
I wonder where these hard documented facts come from. The small country of FYROM has behind it the big country of the US to support it.
Who is the bully and who the bullied? Isn't true that the US put an awful lot of pressure to Greece to accept the name when there were standard procedures in place?
Speaking as a Greek Macedonian I can only tell you that Macedonia has been Macedonia for thousands of years and wherever you ask in Greece they will tell you that the name is nothing new. We didn't just invent the whole problem in the last few decades as you imply. Maybe you are saying that we forgot who we are????
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dimitri74, Macedonia is a name adopted by the predominantly Slav inhabitants of part of the ancient region of Macedonia. No one complained when the inhabitants of what was predominantly ancient Greece adopted the name Greece for their country. I am English but I do not act as if my blood is undiluted Anglo Saxon possibly with a bit of Normand thrown in. My maternal grandfather was Polish and my surname is Irish. Even though Britain is probably more homogeneous than just about anywhere else in Europe I am under no illusions that I am descended from people who lived in England thousands of years ago. Even the ancient Greeks will not have been pure-blooded Hellenes so you are living in a fantasy world if you think you don't have Turk, Slav, Vlach and Albanian blood in your veins. Nationalism, as displayed so bloodily in the Balkans in recent history, is simply a tool with which governments pursue their own interests and normally involves a great degree of fabrication and untrue propaganda to get popular opinion to support the views of an entrenched and vested elite's interest (remember Slobadan Milosevic). For example much of modern Americans sense of patriotism is based on myths and distorted history (Columbus etc). I presume that you, like the majority of Greeks I have met, are dark haired and relatively dark skinned suggesting your ancestors may have Asian blood intermingled with your "ancient Greek" blood. Macedonia did not even have a national identity until the early 20th century but that does not mean its people do not have a history and the chances are their ancestors have lived in the region as long as yours have. Modern Greece has monopolised (a good Greek word) the history of ancient Greece and likes to associate itself with this glorious history but if you honestly believe that this history is modern Greece's alone and that your blood is unsullied by any intrusion for the last 3,000 years then you need to wake up. The last person to claim such nonsense was Hitler with his Aryan ideal and any attempt to argue otherwise goes part way to justifying policies of ethnic cleansing. Not only are your arguments based on a weakly-supported and idealised view of history but they are dangerous in a region that has seen so much bloodshed in living memory.
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One country can't monopolize the all-encompassing name "Macedonia".
It is unfair to Greek Macedonians, Serb Macedonians, Bulgarian Macedonians, Vlach Macedonians, Roma Macedonians, etc.
All of us have lived in the Macedonia region for centuries - as long, if not longer than the people of FYROM.
Yet we do not identify with them, their new identity, or their new state.
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Dear Mr./Ms. Dimitri74,
It was not my intention to refute your opinion. Given that, you shouldn't refute mine. All I wanted to say that it is obvious that there are Macedonians, there is Republic of Macedonia. Fact. There is Greek Makedonia as well. Fact. If Greece claims that Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia have territorial pretensions is simply a science-fiction movie. As far as I can understand, many people here on the BBC blog support R.of Macedonia, because it is given right to every country to be named the way they like to be reffered to. (Would you change your name if your neighbour says that his or her son/daughter have the same name? )It is for the benefit of both R. of Macedonia and Greece to share the name, share the history together as good neighbours. Isn't it the goal of EU to be different, but together? You will be known as Greek Macedonia and they will be known as Republic of Macedonia. It is a pity that a country like Greece, rich in culture and historical heritage, member of the EU, NATO to bully a country far poorer and less powerful. But I do not blame you, I blame the EU for allowing this to happen. God, I am happy that Japan is in Asia. Here we have problems too, but we have always respected each other in terms of ethnicity, religion and language. Mr Mardell, I would like to thank you very much for this fantastic story. I can really see that hatred , racism and other forms of innuendo is still present in the Balkans.
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ArgyHellas,
You mention an 'artificial country'. As opposed to what kind of country? Please, spell out your concept of a nation and let us see whether it can stand much scrutiny.
If one looks around the web at Greek comments on this issue, this is the attitude that eventually surfaces almost every time.
Greeks, like Bulgarians, refuse to accept that the population of this state chose in the late 19th century to identify themselves as Macedonians. It's true their 'national' identity was fluid before--so was the identity of most peoples in the world before the rise of nation states. It stopped being fluid, however, as the people tasted what it was like to be anything else than Macedonian: Bulgarised, Hellenised, Serbianised--all processes were demeaning and involved contemptuous treatment of this territory as a backwater and its inhabitants as no more than pawns in their games.
Macedonia is a new nation. All nations are artificial. Some are pluralistic, some seem to believe they need to cram a myth of ethnic unity down their own and other people's throats.
I've tried to understand Greece's point of view, but in the end the behaviour of many of its politicians on this issue has been recklessly populist, pandering to the most primitive tribal instincts.
Why borrow meaning for yourself from the coincidence that you were born in one part of the world rather than another?
It may be true that patriotism creates a higher ideal than individualism, but history has shown the costs are too great for the type of nationalism that Greece practices to be indulged any longer.
Why borrow meaning for yourself from some spurious association with the prototype of all world-conquerors, Alexander the whatever? Look at yourselves in the mirror, people from both sides of the border, do you really resemble Alexander? Does the way you think really resemble the genius of Socrates? And while you're looking, remember Socrates' words: 'Wisdom is the knowledge of your own ignorance.'
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To moonfacemonkey:
Good for you to be who you are but you can't compare the beliefs of the Greek people with those of Hitler and his supporters.
I am not going to get into your game of words so that you prove that we are all nationalists and believe that we descend directly from ancient Greece. We have the Greek language, believe in the Greek history, customs and try to follow a little bit the lives of our ancestors. Now you might have some proof that determines if ancient Greeks were blond, or red, or dark haired I certainly havent got any of it. People are people everywhere and have rights and responsibilities and based in the Greek cosmotheory anyone who speaks the language, follows the customs and history is Greek. Thus allow me to concider myself Greek based on that although you think I am a mix of anything else but Greek.
As for my arguments being dangerous I think you just show your empathy to the Greek people once again and prove that you cannot understand AT ALL the history of the region and the importance of a name. Its not just a name or just a flag, these are symbols and if you read a little bit of Thycidide you would understand how important symbols are. Many wars have taken place for symbols, either religious or ethnic. We dont want another war in our country just because people like you want to just give OUR HISTORY to a country that has received propaganda for the last 50 years.
You should feel ashamed for what you said!
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As a British taxpayer, so far as I'm concerned, they can call it whatever they like: Fred, Bob, Martha....
So long as we are not expected to subsidise these squabbling nations in any way I don't give a hoot.
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The problem with the [ethnic] Macedonian stance -as promoted in blogs and message boards across the internet- is not their reasonable demand to call themselves "Macedonians", but their erroneous methods used to support that argument. By no means does this invalidate Skopje's official position, but it does inspire me to counterargue the various questionable "facts" promoted by amateurs on the internet in an effort to defend the [ethnic] Macedonian stance by painting the Greeks wth a nasty brush.
The argument relies heavily on a demonization of Greeks, as the supposed great ethnic cleansers of the 20th century, with a continued suppression of minorities within Greece today, all of which is part of an alleged EU and NATO conspiracy as these organizations "overlook" and "ignore" history or even what's currently going on. There seems to be a distortion of history here (while accusing the Greeks of doing this), combined with an exaggeration of historical events, tailor it to fit the contemporary political paradigm, throw in some conspiracy theories (the great pro-Greek EU/NATO conspiracy), and try to create a predator-and-victim narrative that will win the hearts of ordinary American and British internet users by trying to make this issue relevant to them. This process is then perfected by quoting NGOs on limited human rights abuses within Greece, creating an image of Greece as a renegade EU member that supposedly stands out from other internationally recognized open democracies (who are also regularly criticized by NGOs).
A second erroneous method used by amateurs on the internet is to question Greeks' claim to ancient Greece by "disproving" a continuous ethnic line between ancient and modern Greece. While contemporary Greeks have never denied [nor looked unfavourably opon the fact] that their culture has -over the centuries- absorbed waves of immigrants [including Slavs] who assimilated into Greek civilization (just as Britain, America, Italy, or China), amateurs on the internet use this as a weapon against Greece as if it somehow proves that modern Greek culture is completely disconnected from ancient Greek culture, despite the fact that modern Greeks speak the same language as the ancients [modern Greeks can understand ancient Greeks as easy as modern Anglos can read Shakespeare]. While neither modern Greeks nor world historians endorse an "ethnic purity" view of history, amateur historians will nonetheless happily incorporate it into their anti-Greek propaganda in order to fit a political objective.
Again, I am not arguing against [ethnic] Macedonian's reasonable stance to call themselves what they wish. I am only compelled to point out the erroneous argumentative methods some people on the internet use to support this stance. It's plagued with errors and is counterconstructive.
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Dmitri, the fact that you see nothing absurd with Greece's position to me says it all.
And I was hardly generalising given that almost every Greek I've met seems to agree with the Greek governments stance.
I find it insane that Macedonia calling itself Macedonia somehow denies you being able to call yourself Greek Macedonian. Its like if the Iraqi part of Kurdistan was to become an independent republic of Kurdistan, it wouldnt automatically make the Turkish Kurds non-Kurds.
And again, a country called Glasgow would hardly take away my right to say I'm a Glaswegian Scot.
Simple examples maybe but at the end of the day, this is how ridiculous Greece's position is. This is the 21st century, feel free to leave the 1950s and join us here.
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Nagoya, I hesitate to criticise because your arguments are generally well-thought out and balanced but to suggest that Japan and Asia are above issues of ethnicity is not strictly true. Sino-Japanese history has its own stories of ethnic cleansing and attempted genocide and problems of ethnicity in Sri Lanka, Kashmir, Tibet and other minority regions of China, Malaysia and Indonesia as well as religious issues in India, Pakistan and Afghanistan not to mention the problems in the Middle East make Europe's issues look minor. I am English and am conscious that my own country does not have a great history of tolerance as Scots, Irish, Welsh and inhabitants of former colonies would no doubt argue. Like the Greeks you seem to be claiming to be above all this but the fact is that no nation can claim to be whiter than white on this point.
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I believe dimitri74's nationalistic and rude rethoric towards Macedonia and the Macedonians damages the purpose of this discussion and that is arguing with facts that he so passionately seeks from others. May I remind dimitry74 that the right of self determination is something that exists and is guaranteed for every nation today and the Macedonian nation exercised that right in a democratic way through a referendum pursuant to which it chose to live in an independent Macedonian state. Is this an "intransigent" approach that the Greeks claim of Macedonia?
May I remind him of the painful truth that Macedonia is the only cooperating side in the whole saga with Greece. To prove its genuine intention to be a good neighbour to Greece and to appease Greece, it agreed to change its flag and it also deleted some provisions in its constitution, which is unheard of in international relations. And that obviously wasn't good enough. Now it has also to give up its name and identity which again is unheard of. What gives any coutry the right to behave in such a way as Greece does?
The concept of "Greek Macedonians" can only be understood from the purpose of Greek daily politics and nothing else. I'd like Dimitri74 to explain to me what distinguishes the "Greek Macedonian" from the Greek? Obviously nothing other than the fact that he talkes about the Greeks who happened to live in an occupied land. This is unheard of in modern linguistics or anthropology - You are either macedonian or greek and I am sure he knows quite well that you cannot be both unless of course you come from mixed parents or have dual nationality. They are two very distinguish identities with completely different languages. culture and tradition. The soonerwe get over such irrational thinking the better for all concerned.
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Hi everyone,
To avoid being accused of partisanship, I'm Romanian, and I'm an archaeologist, and here's my 2 cents:
1) People currently living in the former ancient Macedonia are all the descendants of ancient Macedonians, Greeks, Slavs, Turks, Albanians, and Vlachs (Romanised indigenous population), not to speak of the fact that they all share Neolithic Near-Eastern origins about 8-10000 yrs ago. In some regions, they were 'hellenized' and in other regions they were 'slavicized' and so on, but they're the same people. This is because ancient people don't 'disappear' biologically, only culturally.
2) In Europe it is natural that ancient regions are now split between two or more countries, and that nationalist factions will try to use this to justify calls for annexation, war etc. However, geographic modifiers in a name won't stop this. If the Greeks really think they will, they are naive. I understand that they are worried what with Kosovo (although the name issue there would have supported the Serbs' cause)
3) There is a good example of this already in the Balkan area: Romania and Moldova. Moldova is the name of the 'independent' former Soviet republic settled on the ancient province of Basarabia, originally part of the greater Principality of Moldova, which stretched from Southern Poland to the mouth of the Danube and included Basarabia and Bukovina. Soviets renamed Basarabia Moldova exactly because they wanted to prevent Romanian nationalists from claiming it, and they were successful to a certain extent. However, when the time comes for Moldova to join EU and NATO (if ever), I doubt Romania (which is hardly a model of behavior in general, but on this issue they have acted well) will push for them to re-name themselves "Basarabia" in order to show they do not have territorial claims to the rest of Moldavia. We all call it "Basarabia" colloquially and get on with our life.
So, in conclusion, I don't think that the Greek demands will have any effect on general nationalism, and that no one will be convinced of the necessity for Skopje to re-name itself "Slavic Macedonia" or whatever. I think the Greeks are losing face because of this, and because of trying to keep Cyprus split up, and generally trying to act as the supreme power in the Balkans. Already the jokes running around on the internet are a good sign of this...
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
dimitri74, my point is that it is not your history to give. It is as much the history of (Slavic) Macedonia. If you are allowed to identify yourself as Greek based on arbitrary assumptions of your ancestry, how can you justify denying Macedonian Slavs the same right. To try to put yourself in the shoes of the Macedonian Slavs imagine how you would feel if Macedonia was a member of Nato and the EU and Greece weren't and Macedonia vetoed Greece's membership on the basis that the name of a region in northern Greece implied territorial ambitions against it. You might get a bit defensive I suspect.
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There is a substantial group of people who self identify as ethnic Macedonians, speaking the Macedonian language. The so called name issue is fundamentally one of denial of human rights to Macedonians.
Not many ethnic Macedonians are left in Greece since Macedonia became part of Greece in 1913. Greece has practiced a relentless policy of assimilation, including the banning of the speaking of Macedonian, and the hellenization of names of both people and places in that part of Macedonia that falls within Greece. Many ethnic Macedonians emigrated to America, Canada and Australia and ethnic Greeks from Asia Minor were resettled into the Macedonian territory in Greece.
Greece does not recognize the Macedonian language or the ethnic Macedonian minority within its own borders. The non recognition of ethnic Macedonians is the real reason why Greece wants the Republic of Macedonia to change its name - because if Greece recognized the Republic of Macedonia, it would also be an admission that there is a Macedonian ethnicity.
Greece's maltreatment of Macedonians would be uncovered, and Macedonians would have to be given their rights in Greece - especially the right to speak and learn their own language.
Macedonians basic human rights to self identify are being violated by Greece's position.
On, 18 April 2008 "The American Chronicle" ran an article written by, Steve Gligorov, Esq.
The article says:
On October 20, 2005, the European Court of Human Rights issued a final ruling in the case of Ouranio Toxo and Others v. Greece (application no. 74989/01). The Court unanimously held that Greece violated Articles 11 and 6 of the European Convention because Greece denied Greek citizens of Macedonian national origin, who are a minority in Greece, the right to freedom of assembly, freedom of association, and equal protection of laws.
Members of the "EFA [European Free Alliance] Rainbow Political Party of the Macedonian Minority in Greece" brought suit against Greece alleging government sponsored discrimination based on national origin, ethnicity, and religious discrimination.
Nearly three years later, Greece has not taken any affirmative steps to address and abide by the Court decision. As a result, on April 17, 2008, the EFA ? European Political Party, in cooperation with the Federation of Western Thrace Turks in Europe (ABTTF), EFA ? Rainbow (association of the Macedonian minority of Greece) and the Federal Union of the European Nationalities (FUEN) organized an international panel discussion in the European Parliament, in Brussels, titled "Ignored Minorities in Greece: Western Thrace Turks and Macedonians."
The EFA message in Brussels was clear: "Greece's decision to veto an invitation to the Republic of Macedonia to join NATO is an irresponsible act motivated by its refusal to recognize the existence of a distinct Macedonian ethnic identity in the Republic of Macedonia as well as in Greece," which in part led to a violation of Articles 11 and 6 under the case of Ouranio Toxo v. Greece.
This is pure and simple discrimination by the Greek Government and the E.U. Parliament must end the racism by its member state, Greece.
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The whole idea of expanding NATO in the Balkans is not to enrich the politicians of Skopje, but to create peace and stability to a troubled region. It therefore makes no sense for an applicant wishing to join a club to dictate the terms of its admission and to create tension and problems to established members. This isn't a dispute over a name (the great Slavs arrived in the 7th Century AD so even a school boy would laugh at Skopje's claims to Macedonia's ancient heritage) -- rather, it's an attempt by a country without a past (Skopje is the remnant of Tito's fragmented republic) to create an artificial history. But does Skopje really think that it can achieve its goals by irritating its neighbour Greece by naming its airport 'Alexander the Great,' placing the White Tower of Thessaloniki, Greece's second largest city, on its banknotes and promoting the idea that Greek Premier Constantine Karamanlis, himself a Macedonian, is a Nazi? Skopje should instead focus on improving the lot of its poor -- as someone who has visited hospitals there, they make the health services of many African nations look good. Skopje should call itself the Federated Republic of the Central Balkans, accept the rights of all its minorities (Serbs, Bulgarians, Albanians, Greeks, Turks, Roma) and work hard to eliminate corruption, create jobs and improve its health care and pensions. Wasting time on a fight with Greece it cannot win is only achieving one thing -- the further impoverishment of the Skopje people. And as for the Skopje loyalists in the US/UK and Australia who have long-claimed that being Slav doesn't disqualify them from having the DNA of the ancient Macedonians (which school of logic did they attend?) it's about time they put their money to work where it will achieve the best results, namely creating jobs for the peoples of Skopje. To claim that noone has the right to dictate their constitutional name is ignoring the key fact that Skopje's text books voice territorial ambitions over Northern Greece. Even with the best will in the world, even the Greek Communist Party can't accept such blatant aggression. The Greek civil war saw Yugoslavia, Albania and Bulgaria provide material and other support to the Greek Communist rebels. Today however Greece lives in peace and cooperation with all these countries except Skopje. And which country is the poorest and with the worst potential? Skopje. Conclusion: call yourself whatever you want but beware that according to the law of physics, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. I look forward to the day when Greeks can sit down with the leaders of the dynamic Federative Republic of the Central Balkans (Skopje) to sip ouzo and drink to the health of a new nation at peace with itself and its peoples.
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The whole question is related to what Greece did to Macedonia 1912 (took over the 50% of Macedonia) did genocide and kick all the Macedonians who did not want to speak greek and change their names to greek out of the country around 90 000 refugees.
In the period of 1912 – 1950 greece move its population from Turkey in to the Macedonia around (650 000) –complete mess…
So Greece wants to cover up this mess by denying Macedonian nation which is ridicules, no matter how small we are we still exist.
And for all the people that say that we are created by Tito in 1945 how would you explain that in USA in the immigration books there are people with names like Petko, Dimitar…. Macedonian names that put country and nationality as Macedonia back in 1880…
And for all of those who doubt that we are related to antic Macedonians read the history (Macedonians took the language from slavs and mixed with them when they settled) so we are not pure but nor the greeks are pure blood look at them they are all dark Macedonias were not dark… greeks are mix of turks and antic greeks. But overwhelming power of the greeks is giving the power to market the history in their best own interest and deny Macedonians that they exist and make a story that this people are confused bulgars or Serbians but no way Macedonians…
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As your interview clearly indicates, Mark, and as many of the comments show, you can't fight an argument held emotionally by using logic or facts. So let's use an argument that could be both logical and "emotional":
If one reviews the history of the EU, you can see that one of its greatest strengths has been in subduing territorial ambitions by members on other member's territory. Indeed, this was one of the reasons for its foundation. I'm not so sure about NATO, but that seems a much "looser" club anyway (as viewed from here in France!).
If "The/fYR" / Macedonia achieved the EU entry requirements and became a member, then wouldn't the fact of their membership act as an effective damper on any possible extremist ambitions towards a "Greater Macedonia"?
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First I would like to say hello to all our friends in the Balkans and Europe. Greece is a modern democracy and freedom of speech is guaranteed. On the other hand, it was not long ago that riots of the Albanian minority took place in FYROM because of various issues. One of the most important ones is that the Albanian minority is also Macedonian although not in the "ethnic" sense of the name. Yet if they claimed to be Macedonians because they simply live in the geographical area of Macedonia, many people, including the Slavic majority of FYROM, would assume that they are Slavs. And this they don't like. The same holds for the Greek Macedonians. So I think that the absurd persistence of FYROM's Slavic majority in attempting to convert a clearly geographical term to an ethnic one is at least unthoughtful for other people that live in the same geographical area. There is no Macedonian ethnicity as there is no European one. There are only Greek, Slavic, Albanian etc. populations that live in the area of Macedonia so they all have the same rights to be called Macedonian. It is exactly like there are Britons, Frenchmen, Germans etc. living in Europe and therefore they are all Europeans.
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Mr. Mardell mentioned the 1944 memorandum from US Secretary of State Edward Stettinius but he only highlighted a few words. Here is the full text:
"The Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia emanating from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav partisan and other sources with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected State. This Government considers talk of "Macedonian Nation", "Macedonian Fatherland", or "Macedonian National Consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic or political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece."
Please note the reference to a Macedonian Nation being "unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic or political reality." I believe this cuts to the core of the problem. Tito re-named the region in question (then called Vardarska Banovina) to "Socialist Republic of Macedonia" and promoted the idea that the Slavs of this region, mostly Bulgarian, are actually "ethnic" Macedonians. He did this for two main reasons: to eliminate Bulgarian claims to Yugoslav territory and to lay claim to Greek Macedonia and its warm-water port of Thessaloniki. Although Tito is long dead, the propaganda that he created continues to thrive in the unprecedented irridentism of today's FYROM. Here are just a few of the irridentist attacks that the Greeks have suffered:
- the publishing of maps showing Greek Macedonia as part of FYROM.
- the printing of money featuring the Greek city of Thessaloniki as part of FYROM.
- the teaching of schoolchildren that Greek Macedonia is occupied territory.
- the instigation of Slav minorities in Greece.
- the usurpation of historic Greek symbols and heroes.
Many more examples could be provided but the point is clear. In any case, Greece has weathered these attacks yet continues to be one of the top investors in FYROM, having created well over 20,000 jobs. They have also shown a willingness to compromise on the name. Their only requirement being that the name should include a geographic indicator (such as "New Macedonia" or "Upper Macedonia") to distinguish their new neighbors from the historic Greek province of the same name. This is a resonable request that any other nation would make under the same circumstances. It is a request that is being made with an eye towards regional stability and friendly relations. Unfortunately, it is a position that is being undermined by FYROMian nationalists and their supporters abroad. Although FYROM currently poses no military threat to Greece, the historical precedent in the Balkans is for conflicts such as these to escalate and eventually explode. By taking steps to solve the problem in its early stages, Greece is showing foresight and leadership. It remains to be seen whether the government of FYROM can meet the Greeks half-way and solve this problem once and for all.
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It really is a shame to see such nationalist hatred is still alive in the Balkans.
Greece is discriminating against it's own citizens who are of Macedonian national origin just like Serbia discriminated against people in Kosovo.
It sad to see people struggling for basic Human Rights in Greece.
It is even more sad for Greece to use NATO veto's against a small poor country solely because of a race-based discrimination agenda against people who are minorities and suffering in current Greece.
Taken in total, the final 2005 European Court ruling in the Taken in total, the final Euro Court ruling in the case of Ouranio Toxo v Greece, the EFA Macedonian Political Party currently suffering in Greece, the U.S. Government Handbook published in the 1918's, and Time Magazine's piece published in 1925, it just seems that Greece must really take a deep breadth and maybe come to piece with some of the minorities that are being discriminated there.
Greece's position has echo's of past Nazi Germany and Slobodan Milosevic's ethnic cleansing in Kosovo.
With a final 2005 European Court ruling in the case of Ouranio Toxo v. Greece for Human Rights violations against Greek citizens of Macedonian national origin, it becomes apparent the E.U. Parliament must
take action to end the racism by Greece, just like America had to take action to end the racism against people of color and African Americans.
This is a sad day for the E.U. and an even more sobering reality of what is the real ethnic cleansing motivation by Greece.
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just one simple question:
i still wonder why in modern macedonia there are greek, albanian, serb, montenegran and turk minorities (turkey is not a neighbour of macedonia) and why there is NO bulgarian minority when bulgaria IS a neighbour and the two languages - bulgarian and macedonian, are almost identical??? nasty politics???
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to robertmichaels:
congratulations!!! you are the first in this forum to present the third part implicated in this conflict - bulgaria.
i, too, have read this document (and many more) which is a clear indication of history manipulation.
ps see the berlin congress in 1878, where the ONLY country excluded from it was bulgaria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Berlin
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My grandfather was born 1900 in Ohrid, a town in the most western part of Ottoman Empire. When asked, he called himself Macedonian.
My father was born 1935 in Ohrid, a town at the most southern part of Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians. He says that he is a Macedonian. He does not feel affiliated to other Balkan states or people.
I was born 1967 in Ohrid, Socialist Republic of Macedonia, one of the 6 constituents of Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia. I only know of myself as Macedonian.
My son was born 2005 in Ohrid, Republic of Macedonia (the independent one).
What am I? What is my son? Is there any reason to search for affiliation with ancient Macedonians to call myself Macedonian? I doubt.
My nation’s identity is in existence now and in most recent history and can not be changed abruptly or arbitrarily.
Today’s Macedonians are very distinctive “tribe”. We speak unique Slavic language referred as Macedonian and we have unique traditions. We have unique mentality. We also regard ourselves as Macedonians, not Greeks, nor Serbs, Bulgarians or Albanians. Also all of the above mentioned nations will recognize Macedonians and Macedonian language as non Albanian, non Bulgarian, non Serb and non Greek.
When you write about Macedonians, visit beautiful city of Ohrid. Talk to us Macedonians on the streets, we are very friendly “tribe”. Learn about us, about existing Macedonian nation and drink a glass of wine with us. Then let us be what we are.
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Misirkov, Macokika, PhiliIIMacedon (LOL), and the rest of the Slavoskopjan band!
So you want to name yourselves as Macedons (LOL) and you expect Greece to recognise you?
Even though…
1)You live in an area marginally only bordering the area of historical Macedonia!
2) Even though you are predominately a Slav nation the decedents of invaders appearing in the area after 1000 years since the time the Ancient Hellenic nation of Macedonians flourished
3) You tried to grab this Hellenic land firstly in 1904 when your ‘heroes’ Komitadjis butchered the Greeks
4) You tried to grab this Hellenic area in 1942 taking advantage of the Nazi occupation first! The Nazis with who wholeheartedly cooperated with butchering thousand of Macedonians who proclaimed their undisputed Greekness
5) You tried to grab this Hellenic area in 1948 taking advantage of the Greek Civil commiting in between untold atrocities towards the Macedonian inhabitants who openly proclaim themselves Hellenes
6) Your propaganda since then constantly speaks of a slavoskopjan based ‘United Macedonia’ with capital the 2nd Greek city of Thessaloniki!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well you can try but you aint going achieve it!
AGAIN!
10000000 countries can recognise you as they like but your Southern Border will be with Greece …not Paraguay or Surinam!
To the rest of you ….
Why on earth you expect a sovereign Nation like Greece is ever to acquiesce in this profound fakery against its history and heritage?
Why on earth you expect a sovereign Nation like Greece ever to agree for this profoundly hostile bunch of people to join its alliances and its Grouping?
Yes Slavoskopjan are hopelessly weak at this moment in time!
Yes Slavoskopjans are not probably a credible threat to Greece just now!
Yes they have been so all along…But it didn’t stop them from taking advantage of instability as history teach us to promote the mindless and historical baseless expansion desires of them! And there were Greeks that killed and butchered! Not Romanians, British or Japanese!
And read your screen….GREECE IS NOT GOING TO EQUIP THEM WITH ANY CREDIBILITY TO DO SO in the short or the LONG term!
And who on earth oh you people (some of you declare yourselves neutral or impartial) have said that we are obliged to accept as friends and allies those who you may implicitly recognise that are enemies albeit …weak one!
Since when you think we can tolerate and turn the blind eye to imbecile gestures like the FYROM’s PM paying tribute to Maps showing 30% of Greek soil only months before.
Yes Greece tries to look forward!
Greece has invested in them and to large degree is sustaining their very existence!
But we are doing so to help them see the truth! And all they are doing is looking backwards…
From the revision of the 1912-13 Bucharest treaty…
To their hallucination of a 1,000,000 ‘oppressed’ Slavoskopjan minority in Greece when at most those poor souls who feel the extension of FYROM at most5 are some 3000!
And what oh all of you so called ‘friends’ and ‘neutrals’ you think is their insistence to the Macedonian ‘brand’ if not because they are after the ‘clientele’ of the real McCoy who has been Greek all along!
And to Mr Lazar Mansvetovic
You sound like a Serb!
Greece as you know has done everything in their legal capacity to help you during your recent times of need! We did so against all odds and strictly speaking against our strict interests! Against the danger of been isolated from our Western allies! Seeing your writing and the decades old Serbian implication to this ‘Macedonian’ affair and the rush to recognise the so called constitutional name of theirs …I have to admit that Greece has been foolishly naïve in supporting you! And the issue of recognising Kosovo should be looked from our perspective and not yours! And by the way Greece doesn’t have many issues with Albanians!
And to you Mr Mardell
Have you prepared this contribution of your from the start and all the Greek officials added were only included on this aspects that agree with your preconceived ideas on this problem? Did they didn’t speak good English so you didn’t understand a word of what they said to you in any case? Didn’t you ask for a translator to come along??????Or is this contribution of yours another one stroke on the serial blatant pro-Slavoskopjan propaganda that the BBC is waging for some time now?
In any case ladies and gentlemen Greece will act to safeguard its interests and provide security and protect its dignity to its people! We are not here to be either pleasant to you or get your approval! If this means that this will be a fight that will wage all alone…Let it be! Hellenism during its millennia old history did exactly this! It’s a perfect opportunity to judge who your true friends are after all! Greece is a small nation but we have our history written under the most onerous of the circumstances so be under no illusions that we don’t intend to blink and we will see this case through in a way who will do justice to truth and not harm our dignity and above all our future!
Be assured of this!
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Drymann,
I don't think i understand your argument. Why is calling this state Macedonia necessarily an 'attempt to convert a clearly geographical term into an ethnic one'?
There are many 'ethnic nationalities' within Britain. If they have British passports then they are technically British. People living in a nation state can identify themselves as belonging to an ethnic 'nation' with a different name than the political nation-state they live in, can't they? It is no problem for any Albanians I know to be living in a state called Macedonia. It doesn't make them 'ethnic Macedonians' if they don't want to be. Only states with nationalist policies of 'ethnic unity' continue to entertain such ideas of exclusive homogeneity.
Have I missed something in your argument?
The reason 19th century Slav-speaking inhabitants of this region naturally used the word 'Macedonia' was because this area falls 100% within the much wider geographic region of Macedonia. At that time, the new Greek state had no interest in that name--quite the opposite. People like Krste Misirkov (On Macedonian Matters, 1903) made no claim to ethnic continuity with whoever lived here a thousand years before: they merely employed a geographic term to describe a geographic area still under Ottoman control.
What is very evident to me here is that the past fifteen years have seen a rise amongst younger generations of 'ethnic nationalism'. And I'm genuinely sorry to say this, but I firmly believe that Greece's embargoes and dismissive denials of Macedonian self-identity have played a large part in this phenomenon. Greece chose to make an issue of the name, not this state. (For a long time, Northern Greece was not referred to as Macedonia by Greeks.)
Last point: it's a harsh thing to say, but in both these states a lack of exposure to modern international debate on nationalism and history has left large sections of the populations out of step with revised concepts of nationhood. One day I hope that the states in this region will follow the example of France and Germany and seek a consensus about the empirically provable facts of their pasts--a serious programme of 're-education' is required to cure us of nationalist sickness.
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Greek investment:
The average monthly wage in Macedonia is 200 dollars (in a country with 30+% unemployment.)
Greece, with many times the average income of Macedonia, 'invests' here, i.e. has a large number of textile sweatshops where wages are at or below the average wage in macedonia. What extraordinary benevolence!
At the time of privatisation of state companies here, Greece (with the help of Milosevic) cherry-picked the state companies which it had the capital to buy but which the people here did not have the capital to buy. What extraordinary benevolence!
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And those of Slavoskopjans who dare speak of Human Rights:
How are those who openly declaring to be Bulgarians are treated?
How the Albanians (that can be up to 40% over there) feel about their treatment in your Slavoskopjan hands?
Where the thousands of Greeks that inhabited the Southern parts of Vardarska are now????
What happens to those Slavoskopjans that happened to be gay????
And why those tens of thousands of ‘oppressed’ Slavoskopjans of Greece don’t take to the streets and complain for the ‘genociadal’ treatment in the hands of those ‘barbaric’ Greeks? Why we don’t witness ‘Tibet’ like scenes in Greece or abroad?
Did you watched the hilarious scenes many witness in the European Parliament few days back when those Slavoskopjan ‘Human Right’ crusaders(LOL ) appeared?
How many times you think your lies need to be repeated since they will become another one of your ‘truths’
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Someone earlier recommended Greece change it's province to "Greek Macedonia," this should solve the problem, if it was just about clarifying the name of the Greece's northern province.
Yet, Greece does not make any affirmative steps to change its province's name to clarify.
I think this is about basic Human Rights violations and not about any type of geographic name.
I believe the Macedonian ethnic minority living in Greece; they created their own political party, they sued their own Greek government for discrimination and won.
Now it is time for the Greek government to abide by the 2005 Court decision and stop the Human Rights Violations.
Please help the people of the EFA Political Party of the Macedonian Minority in Greece.
They have a website and an office in Greece.
These poor people need all the help they can get to try to survive in Greece under impossible human rights standards.
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Call yourselves whatever you like! You may think that you are decedents of Napoleon the Great! Let France worry about it! The name Macedonian is the name intimately linked to Greece! FULL STOP And as you might have experienced this user id name is already taken by someone else! Chose a new one!
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In response to dimitri74
The part that went to Serbia due to the partition of Macedonia was called Southern Serbia or Vardarska Makedonija. That is the territory of the present day Republic of Macedonia. No Greeks went there. They were settled in Northern Greece as it was originally called the region of Macedonia that was given to Greece. In 1998 you changed the name from Northern Greece to Macedonia. There are still Macedonians living there and a lot more of Macedonians from that region who took refuge in another country. They are not 'slavic minority' but Macedonians who were forced to live their home. These people are not allowed back home, time after time refused entry at the border. And they have been refused entry by the Greek goverment because it has everything to do with the region. They are living proof of what happened in the region. There is plenty of more evidence and a lot of it is in Bucharest. And if Greece is right than they should hurry up and show the world their copy of the document for the partition of Macedonia to support their argument of the non-existence of the Macedonian nation.
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The Republic of Macedonia does not interfere with Greek internal policies, nor does it request from Greece to stop abusing the ancient heritage of Macedonia, all of Macedonia's history and the use of the Macedonian name within its borders. On the other hand, Greece demands Macedonia to give up its identity if it wants to enter NATO and EU.
Macedonia cannot and must not afford to be drawn into self-denial and destruction. NATO and the European Union are entities which value freedom, democracy and most of all the right to enjoy one's self determination, culture and heritage.
Preserving one's identity can never be an ‘irredentist and nationalistic’ aspiration, but quite the opposite is true – the denial of a nation’s right how it sees and defines itself, is a remnant of the past expansionist, nationalist and irredentist policies, that brought so much suffering and destruction to the region of southeastern Europe.
And finally, will NATO, the EU and the democratic world let the region spin into a new cycle of instability, especially with the new situation developing after the Kosovo independence, only because of the whims, and the ludicrous demands of one NATO and EU member? If NATO and EU rightfully acted against the representatives of the nationalist and expansionist policies in the Balkans, they should act against such nationalist and expansionist tendencies in their backyard, represented by one of their member-states. The democratic world must not make a mockery of its most fundamental principles upon which it rests.
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To Macedonian_I_am:
I will not critisize that you are Macedonian or not although this is only geographically but let me remind you that you are denying from me that I am Greek Macedonian to be called that. So I would have wine with you without any problem at any time if you wanted to at least sit down and discuss that instead of presenting me the propaganda you got you and your family for the last 100 years.
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To Marcokika:
It is so easy to call a whole nation nationalists such as Greeks when they don't accept what you want them to accept. Let me remind you that its the Scopjeans that have nationalist parties in government and teaching schoolchildren that Thessaloniki its really Fyromanian.
Prove with evidence not speculation.
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To Nagoya:
Nagoya let me remind you that the Nazi's who your government supported in world war 2 had also great support from FYROM. Did you read that in the book you mentioned?
Prove with evidence and don't write whatever you think should be right.
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To balkanmyhome:
That is what your propaganda tells to everyone, that you are a small powerless nation which has been suppressed by Greeks for centuries. Let me ask you something though, who had complete control of Northern Greece in 1912? Was it the Greeks, the Turks or the superpowers of those days? Why don't you read about the suffering Greeks had in those days and you only read about what your people suffered?
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Dear friends with Greek, Macedonian Anglosaxon , Japanese or any other origine
I believe to be the only journalist from both sides that have been folowing closely all the negotiation events on the name issue in the last years. Was talking to hundreds of various people in Gr and MK, Journalists, politicians, historians, ordinary people, as well as with the hardliners on both sides. Have to say I have heard so many irelevant and sometimes even stupid arguments why GR is right or MK is not right, or vice a versa. IN a way, Im grateful that this stupid quarel continues for years because helped me to make excelent friendship with many greek people. Im one of very few persons here, in the so called former country deriving from another former state, that openly says Alexander the great has nothing to do with us Macedonians (having Marsonian or maybe Venerian bacground). However, still cannot understand why Alexander the Great who according to our friends from the former otoman province of grece is the esence of their identity, has never participated on the Olimic games. I guess this is an easy question for the big defenders of the Greek history from the powerful and mean bastards from Skopia who are ready after their soldiers return from Iraq and Afganistan to ocupy Greece as well as the other 25 members of NATO. (:
So once more: Can somebody tell me why Alexander the Great has never participated on Olympic Games?
PS Mr. Mardell, this is a great story, thanks for putting so many efforts to explain the oldest diplomatic dispute on the Balkans.
PS 2 By the way, using terms Skopyanians and FYROM as a prerogative for the citizens of Republic of Macedonia is an offensive act. If this approach continue here I declare that instead using the term Greeks for our friends from south will use the following definition when addressing them:
“ Turkish people that would like to be perceived as Italians”.
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To all Fyromanians and their friends in here I can only say that you need to read some history first, get a better understanding of who is taking advantage of you and then realize one thing. Greece and Greeks all over the world will never give you what you want. We fought for it before, you didnt get it and we will fight for it and once again win. It's not a problem really concidering that our ancestors have fought for our ideals many times and won. We will just have to walk on their footsteps. You can look back too and realize who you really are. The Fyromanians in here have to realize one thing, we are very close and the hatred you feel about Greeks and Greece is only hatred of son to mother. Accept who you are, accept we are your neighbours and we all to have live peacefully and accept that you will never get the name.
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Please read the comments of 'Macedonian-Pride'. These comments reveal the tip of the iceberg as far as strident Greek nationalism goes. I'm not being insulting, I'm merely pointing out that this is how many Greeks I've spoken to genuinely feel. It's a version of reality that might be hard to understand for non-Greeks.
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The funny politicians from FYROM unfortunately persuaded the poor Slavic Macedonian kids that they are the descendants of Alexander the so called Great.
This is really what is childish and ridiculous. Now all the young kids in FYROM think that the Greeks are stealing Alexander and the "Macedonian characteristics" from them.
They got trapped in their own trap.That is why they appear with such hate, arrogance and so intolerant.
There is a saying of what is now happening. "The thief is shouting to frighten the land owner."
They just want to steal, first the history, (which of course means fame and money) and dreaming of stealing little parts of land later.
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Misirkov
If you dont like the Greek 'benevolance' in investments send it away!
You dont oblidged to keep the gift if you dont value it!
Why dont you do it?????
And if you dont need our 'benevolence' be assured that we can do better with our investments other than dumping it in SlavoSkopja??? We can do better without your benevolance too!
Come on. Put your money where you mouth is!!!!!!
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To Marcokika:
Why dont you ask the students of Aristotle University of Thessaloniki who are Fyromanians like you how much their human rights are violated? This is an absurd accusation only brought out by your propaganda machine.
Prove with evidence!
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dear mark,
from the 100 and so comments coming from various countries, you can see that the topic is not just about a name...at least for some people...some others can take matters a bit more detouched...
from all the comments it can be seen that people can easily raise arguments about the existence, start, history, language (and so forht) of a nation. Ad this is easy because people decide to take a point and neglect all the other surrounding....so... macedonia is greek, because there were no slavs at the time of alexander the great...but macedonia is also slav, because slavs lived predominantly in that area in the last decades...but...
we fail to see that geography and geographic regions are ficticious human terms...we fail to see that history is a continuing process and does not stop at a specific date (so ancient macedonia, was then roman empire, bynantine, slav, ottoman, greek, bulgarian, USian, chinese and so on)...we fail to see all the political, economic and social reasons behind the creation of a nation, the existence of a country...we fail to see that as humans, it is easier to disagree in order to maintain our personal status, instead of opting for peace...and we fail to see that nations are CREATED when there is a need to create them, but also when some people decide to call themselves slavs, greeks, macedonians and so forth because they just feel so...so no god created the greek nation as with adam and eve...and there are nations that are born...others that died...all that changed throughout history...even some that split in two (ossies and wessies of germany)...
been born in greece and raised abroad, i could easily call myself greek, in the same way that my friends were calling me english, when i was living in the UK...but noone has to right to disagree with me, if i FEEL argentinian, even when i was not born or ever lived there...or if i feel not greek, but balkanian or european balkanian...
there is no clear cut definition of the term nation...and there is no clear cut definition of any nation...english have long stopped being white and blonde...things change...nations change...because everything changes...so...to raise arguments by stating that something happened 2500 years ago or to bring up documents of 100 years ago...is at least daft and does not take us close to the essence of understanding history...
nations above and foremost are created because of certain needs and a certain feel...one answers to logic...the other to sentiments...when we realise this, we will stop arguing about trivialities that become obstacles to our common goal: to live peacefully, in harmony, in unity and connected...in other words...let's all quit macedonian and start calling ourselves humans...
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I still find that most of the comments written here from both sides follow the respective nationalistic line, i.e. Greek or [ethnic] Macedonian. There is, however, at least one reader from the non-Greek camp whose analysis is very close to what I consider to be good historical judgment: misirkov (whom I slightly criticized above, but only because I found his post intriguing and worth commenting upon). I do not agree with everything he has written, but I will try to address some of the main issues he has raised:
Without making it exactly explicit, Misirkov starts from a point of view that is anathema to the predominant nationilistic discourse throughout the world: modern nations are to a large extent artificial. This applies as much to the Greeks as it does to the ethnic Macedonians (and also, in case outsiders do not get it, to the English, Scottish, Irish, Albanians, Bulgarians and so on). It was mainly as a result of the Enlightenment and the doctrines of the French Revolution that towards the late 18th century national consciousness was created (or resurfaced, make your pick) in most of Europe and in the Balkans. Historically, the two Balkan peoples who first pursued this agenda were the Greeks and the Serbians. Let me make it here clear that what might appear as conservative today was back then a revolutionary ideal that severely undermined the political status quo of Europe. Throughout the 19th century, ethnic identity and national aspirations intermingled with calls for social liberation. To cut a long story short, the Greek revolution of the 1820s had a domino effect that led to the disintegration of the Otttoman Empire (and paradoxically to the creation of Turkish ethnic identity; there was no such thing when the Greeks and the Serbians revolted against the Ottoman rule) and the creation of various new nations.
And here is part of the problem: the ethnic Macedonians are one of these new nations, perhaps the latest to be created (please accept this with some modification; perhaps the Kossovars are the latest new nation, but the verdict of history is still open in their case). It is probably true, as misirkov states, that the earliest awakening of this new Macedonian identity goes back to the late 19th century. He admits that back then this identity was still fluid. On my part I think that very few 19th century inhabitants of the Ottoman province of Macedonia identified themselves as ethnic Macedonians. On the brink of the Balkan Wars the main ethnic conflict was between the Greeks and the Bulgarians. Now here is an irony concerning Greek nationalism: in their effort to counterbalance Bulgarian claims in Macedonia (claims well-established since a large part of the population were speaking a Slavic language, which was more or less Bulgarian), the Greeks played temporarily with the idea of calling these people Macedonians. The argument was the following: the Slavic-speaking populations of Macedonia were not Bulgarians, but slavophone Macedonians, i.e. descendants of the ancient Macedonians who had lost their language. Nowadays this may seem as a vindication of the position of the Republic of Macedonia, but back then it was not, for the simple reason (and this is where the two modern nationalisms disagree) that for the Greeks the ancient Macedonians were Greek. This historical interpretation was only briefly enjoyed by the Greeks. For most of the time, the official view was that the Slavophone populations were simply Greeks (without the modification "Macedonians) who had lost their Greek ethnic identity and had to rediscover it. And if they couldn't, then they were simply Bulgarians: too bad for them, as they had to leave the Greek state and move to Bulgaria or to some other Slavic state of the Balkan peninsula.
But the Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia, founded in 1944 by Tito, created a new historical reality, and the Greeks had now to change their policy again: there was no such thing as a Macedonian nation, only Bulgarians leaving in a separate country called Macedonia. Balkan politics can be really crazy! Anyway, if you want my opinion the Macedonian nation was really solidified as a result of Tito's masterstroke foundation of the Republic. What was probably a minority view before 1944 became current orthodoxy: Macedonians as a nation separate from the Bulgarians. It was indeed an artificial construction, but as misirkov wrote, which modern nation isn't?
And very briefly the end to my post: for the ethnic Macedonians it is extremely hard to accept that their ancestors before the late 19th century, in fact before the mid 20th century, did not probably identify themselves as Macedonians. It simply goes against a basic structural constant of nationalism, that all nations have a long, almost ancient, history. And for the Greeks, it is extremely hard to accept that, partly as a result of their actions, a nation now exists which is widely recognized by everyone but themselves, and which in some of its various manifestations claims part of what they think is a patently Greek heritage (the identity of the ancient Macedonians).
Boy, isn't this complicated?
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The people of FYROM's Slavic majority must explain to the world why there is a permanently stationed NATO force in their country. As far as I know the Albanian minority of FYROM has rioted back in 2001 against the Slav nationalists of this Republic because of the oppression and censorship imposed on them. So currently, FYROM needs an international force in order for peace and order to be maintained. On the other hand, Greece is the longest-lived Balkan republic with a Western-style, parliamentary and democratic form of government. Freedom of speech and religion is guaranteed as well as individual liberties. Actually, all Greeks wish that someday all FYROM ethnicities i.e. Slavs, Albanians etc. will be able to live together in peace and harmony without the presence of an international military peace-keeping force. In this end, though, FYROM's Slavs must accept that no ethnic group is more Macedonian than the others.
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To misirkov:
Talking of nationalism why don't you mention anything about the desires of the FYROM government and the history that schoolchildren learn in FYROM? Isn't it true that they learn that Northern Greece is part of FYROM and has to be liberated one day?
Maybe we should study nationalism but also have some facts on our hands instead of complete and utter speculation.
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I think the Greeks gave a good accounting for their behavior. It's easy to judge from afar, but I imagine a situation in North America where if Mexico tried to change its name to lay claims on its former territories like Texas or California there would be some contention from the U.S.
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To avoid being accused of partisanship, I'm Somali and I'm an IT consultant:
I propose the following name for "the country in question":
REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA 2.0
The reasons? It contains a reference to the ancient Macedonia that is the root of the dispute as well as giving it a time reference (21st century) that denotes the 2nd generation of Macedonia, a more confident and better generation -- even better than that of Alexander the Great. Come on, who could not want to live in a country that is more confident and better than the home of Alexander the Great?
As a gesture of peace, I suggest that YouTube move its headquarters to the country and in return the country offers 0% corporate tax for 100 years to all Web/Internet 2.0 companies that move to or establish in the country.
Isn't the Web the future?
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In response to Tilitomova:
Vardarska as FYROM used to be called was only as Vardarska in all the maps. You can have a look in any historical book to see a proof of that. Macedonia was always the Northern part of Greece and it will always be like that. Like it or not you have to accept that Greece is your neighbour country and if you want to live in peace in the Balkans you have to accept the historical facts. The historical facts tell us that Macedonia was a big region that covered many Balkan countries. Macedonians were always Greeks who spoke a dialect of the Greek language, believed in the Greek 12 god religion and had the same cultural characteristics with the rest of Greece. During Byzantine times slavic ethnicities entered the area and over the centuries some of them wanted to be called Macedonians and some Bulgarians, Serbians etc. That does not mean that FYROM though just because it can use the name geographically it can also use the history and ancestors of its neighbour country Greece for its own benefit. So far FYROM has changed the name of its airport to Alexander the Great, changed names of its streets, used the Star of Aiges as its own unique symbol, used Thessaloniki in its currency, produced maps with Thessaloniki and so on. If that is not nationalistic behaviour coming out of the propaganda of many decades what is it then?
Speak with proof not speculate.
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To macedonianer:
You can say that you are a journalist but you dont seem to have very objective views, I wonder who you work for in all this. Fyromanians and FYROM as they should be called its a creation of the last 50 years. The province of the Ottoman Empire called Greece as you call it has fought a revolution with thousands of lives taken to liberate the country. Greece has also fought during WW2 with its allies against the Nazis and Italians who dried to invade her. The supporters of the Nazis were of course who else? Some Albanians and FYROM citizens. Like it or not Greece and Greeks will never allow that absurd claim that FYROM is Macedonia.
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FALSIFICATION OF HISTORY
Opinions expressed from FYROM web sites:
1) Some of them believe they are descendants of ancient Macedonians
2) Some of them believe that they can consider themselves Macedonians since they live in a part of what used to be ancient Macedonia
3) Some of them believe they are Macedonians but not directly linked to ancient Macedonians
4) Some of them believe they are Macedonians because they are free to call themselves as they like!
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe,
February 26, 1992, p. 35. )
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The ancient Macedonians no longer exist, they had disappeared from history long time ago. Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century (AD)."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992)
22 January 1999: FYROM'S Ambassador in Washington, Mrs. Ljubica Acevshka, gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. At the end of her speech answering questions Mrs. Acevshka said:
"We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great." "Greece is FYROM'S second largest trading partner, and its number one investor. Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr. Nimitz." In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that "we are Slavs and we speak a Slav language."
24 February 1999: In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian." He also commented "there is some confusion about the identity of the people of this country."
"Bulgarian historians say FYROMIANS are of Bulgarian origin and their language developed from a Bulgarian dialect," which Skopje denies. But Sofia was also the first country to recognize FYROM'S independence from the former Yugoslavia in 1991 and now favors its joining the EU. (August 2006 AFP)
"Every FYROMIAN national who does not claim Albanian or Serbian origin has the right to declare a Bulgarian origin." This is an individual act in accordance with the historical reality of our common ethnic origin,” according to: Stefan Nikolov of the Agency for Bulgarians Abroad. (August 2006 AFP)
If you are not the ancestors of Alexander The Great
why you want to use his symbols his culture his name
his history and claim the whole Macedonian land as your own
when you only came in Macedonian land on the 6th century (A.D.)?
The historic truth is that the Slavs descended into the region not before the 6th century long after ancient Macedonia was homogenized with the rest of Greece. They don't have any historical cultural or linguistic ties with ancient Macedonia and they would be really foolish if they officially claimed that they did. There is no historic or archaeological evidence connecting them with ancient Macedonia.
In any case occupying 12% of ancient Macedonian land does not give them the right to steal the Macedonian history and culture. The Macedonian civilization was part of the ancient Greek civilization. It is part of Greece's national inheritance and it can not be used by anyone else.
*A State Department Letter to Consular Officers of U.S.A
U.S STATE DEPARTMENT
Foreign Relations Vol. VIII
Washington D.C.
Circular Airgram
(868.014/26 Dec. 1944)
The Secretary of State to Certain Diplomatic and Consular Officers*
The following is for your information and general guidance, but not for any positive action at this time.
The Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia, emanating principally from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. "This Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonia "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece".
The approved policy of this Government is to oppose any revival of the Macedonian issue as related to Greece. The Greek section of Macedonia is largely inhabited by Greeks, and the Greek people are almost unanimously opposed to the creation of a Macedonian state. Allegations of serious Greek participation in any such agitation can be assumed to be false. This Government would regard as responsible any Government or group of Governments tolerating or encouraging menacing or aggressive acts of "Macedonian Forces" against Greece.
The Department would appreciate any information pertinent to this subject which may come to your attention.
Secretary of State
STETTINIUS
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By the way using the term Macedonians for the FYROMians is prerogative to all Macedonians!
This practice is no longer tolerated!!!!! Hence we now use use the term Slavoskopians who is more geographically correct and ethnically too!
Yes Slavoskopjans we are no longer Mr NiceGuys and your game is no longer!
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to Dimitri 74
My dear greek friend who would like ot be percieved as italian
Im still vaiting for the answer of my queston. Since you have read so many books please respond why Alexander the Great has never particapated in the Olympic games. Or simply avoid answer and admit that you have not clue about the history and the truth.
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Dear Misirkov:
Thanks for answering my post. As can be seen in a later post of mine, I have answered your question. I fully understand your point about Britain but with all respect I think that the situation between Greece and FYROM is different.
The reason is that besides the Macedonian Slavs (the ones you call "ethnic Macedonians") there are other people who are also Macedonians without being Slavs. These are ethnic Albanians, Greeks etc. So if you want to make a comparison with the UK, as another person put it before me, confusing a Greek Macedonian with a Slav Macedonian is as insulting as calling a Scotsman an Englishman, because some centuries ago people used to call the UK (Britain) England. In this respect, I maintain that there are no people who are more Macedonian than others in the wider area of Macedonia. I hope this clarifies the situation for you.
As far as the situation in Greece and FYROM concerning human rights, nationalism etc. you probably do not know that the country where peace and order is maintained by an international force (NATO) is FYROM and not Greece. The NATO peace-keeping force moved in after significant riots of FYROM's Albanians against the oppression of the Slavic majority.
Thanks for taking the time to answer my post.
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The Great Macedonian expert and History professor at Cambridge Universirty Nicholas Hammond some time back gave the following interview:
Who were the Macedonians ?
(A): The name of the ancient Macedonians is derived from Macedon, who
was the grandchild of Deukalion, the father of all Greeks. This we may
infer from Hesiod’s genealogy. It may be proven that Macedonians spoke
Greek since Macedon, the ancestor of Macedonians, was a brother of
Magnes, the ancestor of Thessalians, who spoke Greek.
(Q): Isn’t it true that Demosthenes called them “barbarians” ? (A): The speeches of Demosthenes, that deal with Philip as the enemy,
should not be interpreted as an indication of the barbarian origins of
Macedonians, but as an expression of conflict between two different
political systems: the democratic system of the city-state (e.g.Athens)
versus the monarchy (Kingdom of Macedonia).
Personally, I believe that it is the common language, which gives one
the opportunity to share a common civilization. Thus the language is the
main factor that forms a national identity.
(Q): What was the geographic location of the Macedonian Kingdom ?
(A): It should be emphasized that Macedonia occupied only the area of
Pieria, as is characteristically mentioned by Hesiod and Thucydides. It
had to wait until Philip II ascended to the throne and expanded his
kingdom by occupying, among others, the Thracians and the PAEONIANS. The
Paeonians were allowed to keep their customs, which was a sign of
liberal policy of Philip after each conquest. From Homer we learn that
the Paeonians had their own language and that they fought on the side of
the Trojans. THEY LIVED IN THE AREA AROUND SKOPJE, and this is the
reason I suggested to Patrick Leigh Fermor to suggest in his article in
the Independent the name of “PAEONIA” AS THE MOST SUITABLE FOR SKOPJE.
(Q): Given your experience as a liaison officer in German occupied
Macedonia, do you believe that there may be a Macedonian nation ?
(A): NO. Macedonia was under Ottoman occupation until the beginning of
the 20th century. With the decline of the Ottoman empire, the Great
Powers began to seek spheres of influence in the Balkans. The result was
the emergence, during the latter part of the 19th century, of the
Macedonian revolutionary movements.The Serbian IMRO, the Bulgarian VMRO
and the Greek “Ethniki Etairia” were formed with the support of certain
Great Powers with the goal of organizing revolutionary units in the
area. After the Balkan wars, the Macedonia (the geographical region) was
divided between Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria. The movement for the
creation of a Slav-controlled Greater Macedonia continued until 1934,
when the Yugoslav government declared IMRO illegal, as a good will
gesture to Greece. Therefore, given the struggle of the three ethnic
groups (Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians) for the control of Macedonia AND THE
ABSENCE OF ANY LOCAL NATIONAL MOVEMENT, we can talk of Macedonia only as
a GEOGRAPHICAL ENTITY AND NOT as A NATION.
(Q): Tell us of your experience in Northern Greece during the German
occupation.
(A): I fell with the parachute into Greece in 1943. Our goal was to
cooperate as liaison officers with the Greek resistance against the
Germans. Tito’s plan was to found a Greater Macedonia, that would
include Greek Macedonia and South Yugoslavia; in practice it would be
under Russian control. In January 1944, Tito formed a government and
declared a federal Yugoslavia that would be composed of six different
republics, the southernmost of which would be called Macedonia. It is
here that the name Macedonia appears at the forefront of a plan of a
Greater Macedonia against Greece. The same year,Tito’s guerillas invaded
Greece three or four times and attempted to enlist men from slavophone
villages in the area of Florina. Based on my knowledge, they were
unsuccessful.
(Q): Could you please explain, who are these slavophones you refer to ?
(A): They are people who have been living in the area for centuries,
perhaps from the time of the Slavic invasions of the 7th century.
Nevertheless, they have been integrated with the population and consider
themselves Greek.
I believe his expert view can put all SlavoSkopjan myths to rest!
As for all of you try to gain something from Professors Hammonds wise words!
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To hi-ball:
Isn't your idea of all countries being created artificially, the same idea expressed by a number of US think tanks that helps a lot the divide and conquer strategy? Isn't this the same idea that has created so many wars because the good guys eg: US have to help the poor powerless people who need liberation from their tyrants. Isnt this the same idea that created the war in the Balkans just a few years ago to artificially create Kosovo out of a county of Serbia? I am sorry to say but your idea of what is a country and what is a nation is extremely dangerous and can only lead to one thing war. Greeks have been in the Balkan region for centuries and some of the good neighbours in here might not like it but it is the truth. After all why dont you search the DNA research that has taken place in the region to see who is really there for aeons?
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Wow. The focus here by the pro-Greek government people is really getting out of control.
The same arguments were being made by Slobodan Milosevic just not long ago in support of his campaign to cleans Serbia of the other minorities.
I hope that the E.U. brings this madness by the Greece's Nationalistic Regime to an end.
A modern E.U. member state like Greece must stop the Human Rights violations against the minorities.
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To macedonia2dot0:
why not Somalia 2.0?
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One, especially a reporter, should look for facts and thuths deeper than the surface.
The issue between Hellenes and the Slavs is not about the name Macedonia. It is what is hidden behind the name.
The Slavs who live in FYROM think their capitan should be Salonica. They also think they should extend their boarders to the Agean sea etc etc. Believe it or not they have published maps into that effect.
These maps exist and have been publisized.
Let us not forget they have raised the Greek Flag with a swastika on it. This was also publisized in various TV channels worldwide.
With fewer words, the Slavs, while in modern Europe, their timing is not quite up to speed yet.
Having stated a few public and undisputed facts (not opinions) it is easily understtod that the Hellenic Government considers for the time being the Slavs are not very friendly neighbors, so why would they need to partner with them in any Organisation as NATO or EU.
So one with an average brain (this is not rocket science) can see the issue is not real the name. Slavs from FYROM to prove to the NATO and EU members that are a friendly Country and can survive in harmony with its neighbours. It is as simple as that....
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Not being of any Greek original. I would like to say that the Greeks are correct in not accepting their northern neighbours (FYROM) in the naming of their country as Macedonia.
They (FYROM) should have gone with the original roman name of DARDANIA as this is the same area that the FYROM reside in today.
FYROM only used the name "Macedonia" to justify their existence on the creation of their new nation.
Being slavs and only arriving in the Balkans in the 6th century AD , they have no claim on Alexander the Great and ancient Macedonia.
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Dear Macedonianer,
If FYROM is an insulting term for your people, I think you should be grateful that Greece "vetoed" the acceptance of your country in NATO under that name. On the other hand, your politicians seem to be mad that Greece did exactly that.
Also please be informed that the name of Greece and Greeks in their own language is very different. The Greeks call themselves Ellines and their country Ellada. So they wouldn't mind if you called them differently because the terms you're using are already wrong.
Best regards.
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In an ABSOLUTE WORLD et etc....
Did you see this????
Few days back a Vodka advert with Texas and California and Co part of Mexico????And what happened by our dear cool blooded North Americans rationalists? Those perhaps among you who preach us compassion towards these poor and weak SlavoSkopjans? THEY REVOLTED! They asked for the drink to be banned! They asked for the company to be black listed! They wanted an all out embargo! Enough to say that the drink Company fall in all four and asked for an apology from the great American Public for this profound offence of theirs!
Now imagine that a neighbouring state and not a drink company do that! What mighty US will do? Certainly would had send the F-16, F-18, F-1987s, F-XYZ rolling for a well ‘justified’ shock and awe!
This is the situation Greece endured from the Slavoskopjans! The maps of United Macedonia are in every School book, their Military Academies, their Kiosks, their National monuments, in their sponsored websites! These are those who all you try to persuade us that are friendly enemies or in any case too powerless to do any harm! How hypocritical of you Mark Marde!l! Go and put your wise sermon to GWB and your friends the Americans!
And by the way what Greece does to these daily provocations!! We send the dollar or better still the Euro checks rolling up North! And not that but we are laughed at for our benevolence! Oh dear!
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great job, hi-ball!
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I am an Italian, thank god France Does Not Call herself Rome.
Wow. I do not understand why everyone is ignoring what is happening inside Greece.
Greek citizens of Macedonian ethnicity are being persecuted by the Greek government on an ongoing basis.
This is legally proven by the case Ouranio Toxo v. Greece. These poor people are real Greek Citizens and they are currently suffering even though they are also E.U. citizens.
These people have a website, offices in Greece, and a website. THEY NEED HELP NOW: They are EFA Rainbow The Political Party of the Macedonian Minority in Greece!
Why do the pro-Greek people here ignore this. This is the root of the problem!
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Drymann wrote:
The people of FYROM's Slavic majority must explain to the world why there is a permanently stationed NATO force in their country. As far as I know the Albanian minority of FYROM has rioted back in 2001 against the Slav nationalists of this Republic because of the oppression and censorship imposed on them
Please do not use false info that is easy to check. There is no permanently stationed NATo forces in Republic of Macedonia. Feel sorry for your level of knowledge. Do not speculate, check the claims first othervise you look biased which is not helpful for the greek position.
Still vaiting for any of you the real antick Macedonians to to answer why Alexander the great never particapated on the Olympic games. Come on you turkish people who pretend to be italians, be smart and answer the simple question.
By the way I cannot understand why you greeks have so may diferent names. Helenic republic, Elada, Hellas , Eliniki, Greece etc.
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To Marcokika:
What absurd comments, you must be dreaming if you think that the EU will ever believe that Greece is violating human rights of people. Maybe it will be better to look at the violation of human rights within Skopjea, after all FYROM is using an international force to keep peace within its borders not Greece.
Dream on!!
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To SlavoSkopianer and his question on Olympic games! In these games athlests were above all the participants! And macedonians had a fare share in their participation! Hey look at the list:
480 Boxing Theagenes Thasos
472 Boys' Boxing Tellon Orestheia
408 Tethrippon Archelaos King of Macedonia
380 Pankration Xenophon Aigai
356 Horse Race Philip II King of Macedonia
352 Tethrippon Philip II King of Macedonia
348 Synoris Philip II King of Macedonia
328 Stadion Kliton Unknown
320 Stadion Damasias Amphipolis
304 Tethrippon Lampos Philippoi
292 Stadion Antigonos Unknown
288 Stadion Antigonos Unknown
268 Foals' Tethrippon Belestichos
268 Stadion Seleukos
264 Synoris Belestichos
But I can neither see Zoran, not Dame, nor Zlatko nor Slavoskopjanovski either!
LOOOL
Go and open a REAL book and learn some history instead of parading naked ignorance!
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Well to the author of this article it is really a shame you have not presented both sides.
First of all the first money issued in FYROM had the White tower of thessaloniki on it!!
So how would England feel if France showed Big Ben!! there would be no questions asked?
Second Their First Constitution of FYROM claimed the aim was to protect and reunite ALL of Macedonia!!
So lets say that Brittany of France says they want ot Free all of Britain from the English occupiers and they put that in Their Constitution!!
Third their first Flag was the Flag of Vergina which was used in Vergina, Greece since it was found in the 70´s.
You wonder why the Greeks get worried? Their president lays a wreath on a map showing all of Macedonia!!!! and we are not to worry!!!!
They teach their kids at school that Alexander the Great was a SLAV and he didn´t speak Greek he spoke MAcedonian a Slav dialect!!!, and you wonder what the problem is!!!
YES they changed thei Flag, Their, constitution, their money, The name is the only issue left!!! More accurate research of such a subjuect is required before statements are made especially from a reporter pretending to be neutral!!!
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The situation is not similar to Luxembourg name but similar to this: Would any German allow any Slavic people around and their state being called Bavaria(n)?
Such important regional name exist to any people; we MUST respect them if we love to live in peace.
So, we Greeks cannot allow SlavoSkopians monopolizing the name of Macedonia.
After all, they do distort, rape and kill Macedonian and SlavoSkopian histories for fitting them in their identity.
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For over 60 years, (the well Known) Tito and Stalin, tried to prove that "the black is white and vise versa".
They tried to prove that some Slavs are posterity of Alexander the Great, Philip B' and so on.
The Chinese have a proverb:
"The truth does not need proof. But the lie does."
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Marcokika
Why the basis of your complain?? is this because your lies and distortion of history finally hold to account! Are you suppose that we have to stay silent! Do you suppose that we are going to see all these falsification of Ancient and Modern history alike to go unchecked? All this masquerade of yours to carry for long? Do you somehow think that we are not entitled to set the record straight?
Enough of your lies! Greece and its people we the Macedonians first among all are in full throttle and will not allow in your claws our history our heritage our dignity our lands and our future to do as you please!
Stomach it and turn a page! It’s a bridge too far!
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aris53m wrote:
The Slavs who live in FYROM think their capitan should be Salonica. They also think they should extend their boarders to the Agean sea etc etc. Believe it or not they have published maps into that effect.
These maps exist and have been publisized.
Dear Aris 53
You have to be the greatest mind of the 21 century being able to see what the whole nation (artificial or not) is thinking. Im a Maceodnian and do not think that Salonika should be our capital nor I think that we should extent our border till te aegean sea . I gues this is already enough for you to apology. You all talk about the maps that have been publized but none of you show it or provide links to it. What about the maps officialy published in 2000 by the Greek Parliament marking parts of Turkye and Albania as Greek teritories ? Or this is not a useful for your nationalistic claims and it is beter to skip it.
Please use fact not opinions since u decrease the level od the debate by expresing private wiews based on emotions.
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So merry Marcokika you are an Italian and you say:
‘thank god France Does Not Call herself Rome’
Well pity us the Greeks! The Slavoskopjans are calling themselves ‘Macedonian’
LOOOL
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one question to nagoya ??
do this japanesse writer report any monuments or any ancient tombs and in which language it was written?
do that people who lives now in skopje area speak or write the same language as their !!!! ancestry (as they claim).
i am sure that you have an idea about greek language. just look around and you 'll see thinks of your own in greek language. names of stars, names of any kind of science etc.
ask yourself now .what do you know about their language ? about that nation 50, 100 150 years ago ?
they lived in another place, they are slavs (like all the other nations around there) and they speak the same language and now they want to steal our history and then to be a problem near our borders.
we do not know if after some years the will change their mind and ask for something
more annoying all us around. (albanians, bulgarians etc)
please read more carefully
best regards from a makedonian. a true one
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This person is a journalist?
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I have a simple question. Why Macedonian language is almost the same with Bulgarian? As you may know Bulgarians are slavs and they speak slavs. So why you speak their language and not, for example ancient greek which was the ancient macedonian's language?
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Hi everyone, I'm greek from athens living in sweden and I would like to clarify a couple of things on the issue
The decision to veto FYROM off nato is really simple. Nato is a military alliance. No country in the world would engage in such relationship with a neighbour that they perceive to be a threat. If FYROM wants to be our ally, they have to convince as that they are a credible.
At the moment though, thanks to their Government of FYROM, their kids are growing up being tought that half of greece should be theirs. At the same time their ministries issue maps containing half of greece within their state. This is simply not the behaviour of a credible ally and as long as it continues the veto will not be revoked.
I know that most citizens of FYROM are peacefull, but would they accept to be allies with albania, if they released maps of albania containing half of their country?
About the "they are not a military threat to greece", hmm. Ok it's a good point but even so, "not being a military threat" to a country does not automatically qualify you for becoming that country's ally.
Now about the slavomacedonian minority in Greece, 5000 people in 10 milion country do not constitute a minority. Because that's how many votes the slavomacedonian party gets. There are like 20.000 greeks in Sweden, should we also be recognised as a minority? I don't think so.
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To all those who show interest on ‘Human Rights’ and such.
During the late 40’s the Slavoskopjans hell bent separatists committed perhaps the most heinous of their crimes: The PAIDOMAZOMA or in English Children abduction. Here is what one of those who witness the events say and pay particular attention about the strong UN condemnation. This is a direct acanswer to those who put forward the thesis that they maybe enemies but nevertheless weak! They were weak then but look what they have done:
Georgios Manoukas was the General Inspector of the Child Gathering and also a former member of KKE (Greek communist Party). He returned in Greece in 1961.
The author examines Comitern intentions behind its policy towards the children and concludes that from the beginning of the Yugoslav government (Tito) falsified the numbers of these children, integrated them into the population of the Federative Republic of Macedonia, and acculturated them in the new “Macedonian” culture.
I will stay in the parts of his book that mention the connection between East Communists and Slavophone element left Greek Macedonia. I will remain in the term Slavmacedonians to make easy my writing.
Fact1
Names of the Slavs involved in the Children abductions
One from the 5 member’s council during the Children abduction era was the Slavomacedonian Sikavitsas. This person was responsible for the Slavophone children. In the called Mountain Government (KKE) were two Slavophone “ministers”. Theirs names were Metrovsky and Stavro Kocev.
These Slavophones paid a lot of visits in the places that the children were.. Major point of them was the elimination of the Greek language used by the Greek children.
Their lectures composed of with terms such as Macedonia autonomy, Greece was a creation of the Big Powers, Slavic Macedonians were the only descents of the ancient, Freedom to the occupied Aegean Macedonia from the monarchofasists e.t.c.
Fact 2
Names and places of the Villages and Camps
FYROM propaganda claims all the children were Slavphones. Of course this is a lie. In the book VII, page 26 referred the exactly numbers and the places that kids guided. 18.500 went in the Bulgaria (17 camps), Romania (11 camps), Hungary (11 camps), Czechoslovakia (18 camps), Poland (3 camps), East Germany and Albania ( 5 camps), 9.500 went in Yugoslavia (15 camps). Those numbers and the names are recorded from Red Cross
Fact 3
United Nations Resolutions
On November 17, 1948(193), and also in November 1949 (28 the UN General assembly passes two resolutions condemning the removal of the Greek children, demanding their return. These and all subsequent UN resolutions are never answered. From 1950 to 1952 only 684 children are permitted to return to Greece and this happened because the pressure of the Red Cross and the two new UN Resolutions.
By 1963, around 4000 children (some of them born in Communist countries) have been repatriated. Of those who did not return many died of illness, some escaped to Germany and others have since returned or have yet to return.
In the page 101, Volume 1 you can read all the text of the last Resolution.
Conclusion
FYROM government denies any discussion because they know of the sign past. A past that Slavophone members especially those with the “pseudo-Macedonian” conscience had participated in the child-gathering.
I suggest in anyone to read the work. 600 pages full of information’s from that period. A dark period for the modern Greek History. A period with “janissary” type action directed against Greece.
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The actual problem that we face even if it so hard for the rest of world to understand is that we are left alone to deal with the outcome of a 60 year propaganda by the Soviet Union and Tito. These people dont only believe that they are Macedonians (even though they are bulgarians) but they have the nerve to claim a big part of our country. How would lets say the British feel if some tiny country with the strong support of its own allies claimed that the British Empire and History is actually lets say Egyptian!!!! And that you suppress a British Minority.
You would laugh and so did we.
Now they also claim the whole of Northern Greece. Well excuse me but I am not going to accept it just to support their european and Nato ambitions. If they want us to treat them with respect they should try to leave behind them their propaganda, teritorial claims and threats. Can you possibly understand how isulting it is to have an identity built at the expense on your nation's history and at the same time claiming huge parts of your country.
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Dear Macedonianer:
Greeks don't have many names. They are Ellines. Foreigners are confused and use various other names.
And now the FYROM Slavs want to convince themselves and confuse others that they are the only Macedonians. Concerning your question about Alexander's participation in the Olympic Games: Alexander was not an athlete but a King. Therefore, your "big question" has a very simple answer: Alexander did not participate because it was not his job. Furthermore, he was most of the time away on military expeditions in Asia until he died at the relatively young age of 30. On the other hand there was a great number of winners in the Olympic Games that were Macedon.
And FYI: Mount Olympus, from where the name of the Olympic Games originates lies in the Greek territory of Macedonia.
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To macedonianer:
As you are still waiting for an answer let me give you an answer. First of all I am not going to get down to your level and answer on any of the insulting claims you make. Everyone can see that these are claims coming out of pure hatred for Greeks. Accept that FYROM's citizens are Fyromanians and not Macedonians.
The reason the Greek language has so many names for Greeks is because it has been around for a few thousand years and is quite a rich language. If you know history that well you would know to how many other languages it gave birth.
Alexander might not have gone to the Olympic Games simply because Greece was at war those days with Persia and had a huge campaign in front of him. On the other hand Greeks from all over Greece including Macedonia have been to the Olympic Games in fact some of the best athletes had their origins from Northern Greece. If you want come around Thessaloniki, I can accomodate you and then take you to the museums to show you some of the nice amforeis and their depictions of everything Greek. I can also take you to see the pupet dolls of ancient Macedonians, their figurines, their statues that always depicted the 12 Gods or heroes from the Greek mythology. If that is not Greek enough for you then I can take you to Dion one of the holiest cities in Greece located just a few miles from Thessaloniki and dedicated to Zeus. There you can try and read some of the Greek inscriptions.
Or maybe all that is just Greek propaganda who artificially implanted those inscriptions and statues after 1990?
Dream on that is your only hope!
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Dimitri 74,
Identity-building in Macedonia (Upper Macedonia, New Macedonia, whatever you want to call it) has taken some very dodgy turns of late, it's true.
As I've argued before, this is partly the outcome of international isolation and a relatively small educated middle class in a territory where the ruling class was not 'indigenous' for centuries...indeed ever until recently, and partly an understandable if regrettable reaction to haughty Greek (and Bulgarian) dismissals of Macedonian identity. (Add other factors as you like.)
This is negative, if not especially dangerous in a weak state. The only hope is that it would be reversible if some prospect of prosperity and stability were to appear on the horizon of this endless/relentless 'transition' period. Greece could and should for its own sake help rather than hinder the achievement of such a prospect.
As to textbooks, I could be wrong but the only ones I've seen simply state that in the rural districts on the southern border of Macedonia/northern border of Greece, the population were predominantly Slavic speaking and thousands were evicted at several stages in the process of the modern Greek state's expansion into what is now Northern Greece. (This seems borne out by Ottoman censuses at the turn of the century.) To my mind, these don't amount to irredentist claims. I haven't met a single Macedonian who dares to fantasize about a day when Slavic Macedonians might live in 'Aegean Macedonia' again, but I've met many who feel Greece should acknowledge the confiscations of property and the hardships of those who were exiled (and ,yes, Greek communists were exiled, too--it's not a competition.)
Cultural icons, bless them. I'll say straight out that the cultural icons in contention between Slavic-speaking Macedonians and Greek Macedonians are ultimately Hellenic icons. Yes it's true that Philip had trouble getting into the Olympic Games (traditionally barred to non-Greeks, though Alexander managed eventually) and yes Demosthenes called the Macedonians 'barbarians',etc, etc, but in the end the 'heroes' of this contest were inevitable drawn into the orbit of the much stronger 'higher' Hellenic culture.
And so it's ridiculous, as far as I--and many educated Macedonians are concerned, that modern Slavic Macedonians should wish to claim a culture that is Hellenic. And it's bad politics and all the rest. But that isn't how the name 'Macedonia' came about and the name when it was first used didn't have the connotations it does now.
hi-ball reiterates above the fluidity of Macedonian national identity until recent times. This is borne out by the way in which the few intellectuals from this region in the late 19th century were in a dilemma as to their own identity and the best/safest path to follow for the good of the Slavic Christian inhabitants of this regions as they saw the imminent collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Many who had seen the future in assimilation with Bulgaria were dismayed at Bulgaria's treatment of 'provincials' from the region and felt that the Bulgarian party fighting for the independence of this territory form the Ottomans (IMRO, and all its permutations) had severely betrayed them by calling for a peremptory uprising. So many chose the path of independence--and still continued to vacillate.
It's a complex story, of course, but an important factor was that the Great Powers weren't prepared to see a Greater (San Stefano) Bulgaria and therefore a future with Bulgaria would involve a splitting up of what had become an entity of sorts, with parts going to Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria. If you like, then, the conscious identity of the people of what is now 'Macedonia' came about by a process of elimination: it achieved 'singularity' by being the last out of the Ottoman Empire, by being the object of competing interests, etc.
Does all this make this state 'artificial'? Yes and no. Yes if you think you can measure the relative authenticity of a state in terms of length of continuity, as claims of continuity in 'national' consciousness as Macedonians beyond a century or so are dubious. No, because the Slav-speaking people in this state have shared a singular, conscious fate for the past hundred and more years. (Isolation and hardship over the past 17 years of independence have greatly reinforced that sense of a shared fate.)
Who can blame Greeks for passionately loving their beautiful country and the incomparable history of the territory they inhabit? But who except a Greek nationalist can understand the sour-grapes mentality that seems to have fermented in Greece since the failure of their Megali Idea? (Maybe Bulgarians since San Stefano?) And then again, why should anyone except Greeks care to understand such extraordinary nationalistic hubris?
One can choose whether or not be provoked. With a neighbour that has something like 8,000 soldiers, it seems rather absurd to the rest of the world that Greece should choose to be provoked. And when you look at the past few decades, I think you find the responsibility for choosing provocation lies with Greek politicians in their search for votes. They've stirred up hysteria they themselves cannot control. (The same thing's happening here now...Thanks.)
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Dear Mr. Mardell,
with great disappointment I read your article, as it does not manage to escape from the usual superficial and often misleading approach that we are so accustomed to by foreign reporters on complex issues in the Balkans, and elsewhere in the world, comprising historical/geopolitical/cultural and nationalistic aspects.
I will try to make myself more precise and clear just by highlighting some points in your article that do not correspond to the facts, or could be characterised as misleading.
I will start from the bottom, with your last phrase 'But what's your view about the importance of a name of a nation?' This phrase alone exhibits clearly in my view the whole confusion that exists even in your mind concerning this issue. But what do I mean by that?
If you had made a more thorough research you would have known that the population of this country is not comprised by a single nation, in its classical sense, but it is comprised by a true multi-ethnic pallet, having a majority of Slav origin population, followed by a considerable minority of ethnic Albanians around 30 to 35% (statistics and census vary), and a number of other minorities like Turkish, Aromanians/Vlachs (predominantly of Greek consciousnesses), Roma, as also Greeks.
Furthermore, from your background research you should have been able to know that the whole name dispitute and the resulting negotiations under the auspices of the UN, that here I have to underline BOTH governments agreed on having, are for the name of the country and NOT 'of a name of a nation', as you say. In other words, the 2 parts are negotiating for the state's name and not for the name of this country's population or one of its ethnic composites.
I could go on and on pointing out misleading statements in your article, or plain inaccuracies like your following statement 'But the point is that over hundreds of years there is hardly a hint, not a whisper, of territorial ambition from those up north to those down south, to explain why The Name looms so large.' If you were more methodical and had done a basic historical research you would have known that only in the 20th century we had a series of wars related to the expansionists ambitions of 'those up north' in connection to the geographical region of Macedonia, that in its vast majority today is an integral part of Greece. Some brief examples: First Balkan war, Second Balkan war, WWII with the occupation of northern Greece by Bulgaria, enforcing brutal assimilation policies to the population of the region etc.
I just hope that all the above were just a result of a poor research from your part, or a bad approach to the whole issue, and not a conscious and intended bias from your side.
In any case, the warmest greetings from a Greek-Macedonian (I use here the term in its geographical sense :)) to you and all our neighbors 'up north' whatever their country or ethnic origin, may it be. The path to cooperation and peace is open, as also the path towards sterile backward nationalism that we all see its results in the Balkans, the choice is ours.
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To Slavoskopjaner
You say a GREEK OFFICIAL map showed parts of Albania and Turkey!
Show it!! Prove the evidence! Prove that this is the real official position!
PUT UP or SHUT UP!
Enough of Slavoskopjan lies!
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To macedonianer:
Propaganda was never a good thing, please don't embrace it and use it in here. You got your answer on the Olympic Games, now move on and accept who you are. As one reader said stomach it and only hope in your dreams.
Bye bye Fyromanian!!!
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Alexander the Great never participated in the Olympic Games because he ask the Hellanodikes (judge) that he want to competing only against Kings, and of-course the Hellanodikes (judge) of the Olympic Games refuse, because the Olympic games was for all Greeks!!
Here is same Macedonian Olympic winers:
328 b.c. Kliton Makedon - Stadion
292 b.c. Antigonos Macedon - Stadion
268 b.c. Lelefkos Makedon - Stadion
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Alexander the Great never participated in the Olympic Games because he ask the Hellanodikes (judge) that he want to competing only against Kings, and of-course the Hellanodikes (judge) of the Olympic Games refuse, because the Olympic games was for all Greeks and not only for kings!!
Here is same Macedonian Olympic winers:
328 b.c. Kliton Makedon - Stadion
292 b.c. Antigonos Macedon - Stadion
268 b.c. Selefkos Makedon - Stadion
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WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH YOU PROUD AND EDUCATED GREEKS.
NONE OF YOU CAN EXPLAIN WHY ALEXANDER THE GREAT HAS NEVER PARTICIPATED IN THE OLYMPIC GAMES.
DONT KNOW WHAT TO THINK. THE GREAT GREK MINDS HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT THE HELENIC HISTORY (MACEDONIAN ALSO ) HEHEHEHEHE
I'M SO DISAPOINTED
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I find the almost brainwashed and ignorent attitude of the Slavs laughable and quite embarressing. GET YOUR OWN HISTORY!! It is not a childish attitude to adopt this stance against this region it is basic common sense and forward thinking. It would prevent any problems in the future.
Oh and dear deluded slavs, macedonia was represented at the ancient Olympic games (only Greeks competed) The language spread around the world by Alexandros the great was Greek. Does anyone with half a brain think that his troops would have followed him half way round the world if they were not Greek. Oh and the arguments about Athens in the USA etc....What a load of crap.
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WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH YOU UN_EDUCATED SLAVOSPIANER!
YOU HAVE THE ANSWER IN FRONT OF YOU AND YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND IT!
WHAT HAPPENS WITH ALL YOU SLAVOSKOPJANS???HAS THIS DECADE OLD SLAVOSKOPJAN PROPAGANDA MADE YOU BLIND OF THE MOST ELEMENTARY TRUTHS IN LIFE:
MACEDONIA WAS AND IS GREEK!! WILL BE GREEK TILL THE END OF TIME!
STOMACH IT...AND TURN A PAGE!!!!!
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Dear Macedonianer:
Both me and Stadionikis replied to your question why Alexander did not participate in the Olympics. The answer was that he was a King and not an athlete. Why do you keep bringing it back?
I know you can't understand Greek but can at least unerstand basic English?
Thanks
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Unfortunately Stadionikis this is just a nice efort to save the educational dignity of your compatriots present here
The only precondition for the people from diferent states cities polices in the ancient times to participate in the olympic games was to speak the Greek language which was the prove that someody can be considered as a Greek. Unfortunately for you alexanderthe great was not speaking greek language therefore was rejected and could not participate in the olympic games.
By the way we are macedonians we were macedonians and will be macedonians no mather if you or enybody else thinks diferently
see you on Saturday in Thesalonika where I have two shops and a rent car agency . If you recognize me ask for discount.
Best regards to all people ready to debate without emotions. Not many as such seen around
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You see all Slavoskopjans and all you so well sympathisers of theirs! THEIR 'ARGUMENTS' IN SHREADS! THEIR 'TRUTHS' KNOCKED DOWN AND SHATERED!
Another BBC spin and twist thoroughly exposed!
Greece tended the hand of friendship! They interpreted it as a sign of weakness! They put too much faith to their NeoCon assurances to twist our arms! They tried and failed!
NATO VETO is the start! We will wait...We will see if they plan to change their course...
If not!
GREECE WILL EXERCICE EVERY LEGAL RIGHT IN ITS ARSENAL
Nobody should blame Greece for doing so!
The RIGHT is on OUR SIDE!
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To macedonianer:
Your questions have been answered, your propaganda show demonstrated, your denial became evident. If you want to live in peace and prosperity accept the truth and accept who you are.
Otherwise just dream on Tito's dream world.
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I am from the Republic of macedonia and i must say that improud of it,i adore greece and i'v been there for a 1000 of times. Have also a lot greak friends that never make me feel as THE GREECE GOVERMENT MAKEME FEEL TODAY.
Only words that i can say is that i'm verrrryyyyy surprise fromthe young greek intelegence (people) I never mentioned that in greece lived somany young idiots that are not able to learn the history of the past 90 years and im surprise how that can know it from 2000 years ago. i'm also sad that the goverment andpoliticans maybe 500 people can make hate eachother more than 10000000 of people.
personaly i wanna be what i am, in the country of today and leave in peace and freedom to go in hollydayin greece and maybe visit halkidiki (greece) and not macedonia.
VERRY SAD AND SHAME SITUATION FOR THE 21 CENTERY.
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Tell us also you Slavoskopjan ‘Human Rights’ crusaders what was the purpose of your Charlatanistic genetic so-called ‘scientific’ studies to prove that all Greeks have the DNA structure of Sub-Saharan Black Ethiopeans . To ‘prove’ as you have put it in many cases and in various fora that Greek are simply black Africans? And what kind of ‘Human Rights’ credentials you are aiming in establishing with all these!
Who on earth one with a sane state of mind is going to allow this ‘carnivals’ of yours to go on unchecked for long???
And If I have to chose between to be Ethiopian or Slavoskopjan it will be an honour to me to be in par with the brave Ethiopians and an anathema to be the same as the forgeries the Slavoskopjan pretend to be!
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Macedonianer:
Your persistence is inexplicable. As we all told you Alexander was a King not an athlete. And also another thing is for sure: He did not speak any Slavic dialect because the Slavs did not even exist in the Balkans in his time!
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To misirkov:
I have said it before and I will say it again. I have nothing against the people of FYROM and I do not wish for them to live in a country excluded from every organisation and institution of the western world. All Greeks would prefer well educated, wealthy and prosperous neighbours in the EU in the UN without disagreements respecting each other. I can't deny you the fact that FYROM citizens live in part of ancient Macedonia, as they live also in parts of southern Serbia or Eastern Albania. Why deny the name Upper Macedonia when you know you have your neighbours in Lower Macedonia? Why deny our history by using Alexander the Great for your airport? Why show all the school children maps with Thessaloniki in them?
Do not fall in the trap of the US who want the whole region divided. Think why all that support from the US. They always go and support countries and people when it suits them. Why don't they support the poor people of Zimbawe or Darfur? Ask that first to yourself.
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Hello to all,
It'is is useless to argue over the net on clear historical matters : Our friends slavs cannot "be" macedonians. Of course they may be called macedonians if they want (thank u very much) but this saddly does not make them macedonians (MaCedonialDs perhaps ?). But the formal name matter is clearly a politician's job (not historian's).
-A citizen of Macedonia-Greece, part of former ottoman empire, former byzantine empire, former (east) roman empire, former kingdom of macedonia, former ancient Greece.... former race of erectus, former habilis (there is a also a "dispute" here).-
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The Slavs have 'only' inhabited this region since the 6th century. How many people find that an inherently ridiculous statement in 2008?
Personally I think it's irrelevant, but let's acknowledge that a million Greeks came to populate northern Greece after Greece's defeat in her war with Turkey in 1923, That means those Greeks have 'only' inhabited northern Greece/Greek Macedonia for less than a century.
And who cares?
it is malicious and mendacious, by the way, to assert that Slavic speaking Macedonians supported the Germans in World War 2. Really, hat twisted notions lead you to make such an assertion? (There were some Albanian units in search of a Greater Albania (the 21st Waffen SS Mountain Division for one), but we all know peoples from around here chose their sides for local ambitions. How can you have it both ways: the Macedonians were a Communist invention of Tito and they were fighting for the Nazis...come on, this is insane!
In the Greek Civil War, the only Greek party that promised some kind of security to Slavic speakers in northern Greece were the Communists--that's why they joined with the Communists. Yes, Serbia/Yugoslavia after WWII wisely saw its best interests in recognizing a republic of Macedonia and further sought to press on to Salonica--but it didn't have much choice because by then the Slavic speakers in this region could only see a future as an autonomous state.(The ruthless royalist Greek military bands had shown how they would treat Slavic speakers if they came to power.)
It may be time for Macedonia to 'get real' about the short history of its national consciousness, but it's far more urgent for the region as a whole that Greek politicians and educators start calming down the storm of nationalism they've recklessly created amongst their people. After all, Greeks, don't you claim to be descended from philosophers who invented dialectics? The unsustainable contradictions in your stance are plain for all but you to see and yet you don't seem able to move beyond your untenable premises and start again from a new concept of nationhood--one that doesn't exclude the dignity of others.
Enough--I resign. Please take Alexander and close the door behind you.
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To ivanik:
We all have friends from the Balkans and have heard their side of the story. You have to ask yourself though who is behind all this stiring up and who would benefit from divided countries in the region. Ask who wants to build massive army bases in your country, ask who wants to control the region really. The sad thing is not our disagreements friends and brothers have them. The sad thing is that you believe that the Greek governments or the Greek people are against you. You have to realize that noone in Greece is against you except maybe some right wingers. Why on earth would we prefer an unstable, poor country on our northern borders instead of a wealthy sovereign one?
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Dear Ivanik:
Welcome! I really admire your sincerity and straightforwardness. You are truly kind saying that Halkidiki is Greek and not FYROM's. Nobody in Greece hates you believe me.
On the contrary, a large number of Greek companies have significant investments in your country and want to keep it this way.
As you seem to be a kind and truthful person that can be trusted, please let me know if you consider your people ethnically related to other Slavs or not. Your input will be greatly appreciated.
Best regards and thank you in advance.
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Cant you Greeks realize that Republic of Macedonia exists and will continue to exist? You cant do anything to stop this. Macedonia will be Macedonia forever.
The world knows the true history. You cant fight against the whole world. Do you?
Good luck you poor Greeks.
The great times for Macedonia are still to come. You better prepare to deal with the consequences from your attitude. Greece is "the naughty boy" in Europe for many years. How long do you think that EU and the world will tolerate you? Not much.
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Dear Misirkov:
Thanks for "offering" Alexander the Great to Greece and the Greeks. Believe me he would be grateful if he was alive today!
Maybe he is not important to the FYROM Slavs but it is to the Greeks.
On the other hand, please inform us why the first national symbol of FYROM was the Vergina Sun and not some other more Slavic. Do you think that countries pick their symbols randomly?
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imany are you a dislexiac?You have changed all the words..
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Dear "AlexanderMacedonia"
I don't know how long EU will tolerate Greece but I am pretty sure that if you do not accept historical facts the Greater Albania vision will eventually destroy FYROM!
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Hey Greeks why are you so emotional You are the oldest, You are the best , you are the bigest, You are always right, you are simply wuthout any negative caracteristics you should not be so emotional
By the way macedonianpride thanks for showing to all how the greek democracy isfunctioning in reality. kill verbaly or for real all the persons who think diferently than the official helenic policy. You can put embargo again like up to 95, you can prevent our air companies to fly over greek sky like you did last week but cannot prevent the truth to be spread around the world. . before I go to sleep I would like to thank the greek friends that now unlikely 20 years ago so many people knows about us. Just for your info total of 123 countries around the globe recognised my country as republic of Macedonia. without your support we would never strenhgten our national curent level.
Thanks again and have nice dreams about having maedonia only yours.
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IVANIK
Greece dont have any problem with people whatever their background might be! Its only acting in the face of heavy provocation in the face of an un-historic attempt to rob us of something dear to our hearts! Our herritage! But Ivanik I suggest that you should do some soulseraching try to do some self criticism! Try to gasp your side of the blame!
Greece dont want an inch of your territory and has shown this on many occasions! Ironically Greece honestly strives for your peace and prsoperity too!
Hearing what you say I am confident that if you was all that we have infront we could had solved things in a sec! But I am afraid your voice is a minority one! Just look here what is written!
I will reiterate that you look at your side of the story and try to short out thing from your side! And believe me this will be a tough task for you!
Wish you the Best and looking forward see you in our Macedonia during summer or whenever you like!
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Last: hi-ball I'd comment on your post, but as I almost entirely agree with you there's not much to be said--except I think you'd find the course of Bulgarian nationalism interesting if you haven't studied it already. (Sometimes you almost have to sympathise with their deep sense of grievance of not winning this territory--but the consistently outstanding arrogance in their treatment of Macedonians, even amongst academics, eventually leads you back to the belief that even this crappy state of affairs now is better than a future with Bulgaria would have been.
Come and visit Lake Ohrid, visit the mountain village of Galicnik, walk in the high beech forests of Maleshovo and see why the people here love their 'artificial country'.
(Just don't try to make a living or bring up kids with any sense of a future with neighbours like ours!)
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The name of our northern neighbor state till the end of world war II " as a part of Yugoslavia was VARDASCA". Tito's inspiration was the name Macedonia for Vardasca.
Macedonia is a Greek name and is nothing to do with the Slavic or Bulgarian tribes.
BBC journalists has to read the history of Macedonia written by Hammond (British historian).
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To misirkov
The Kalas tribe in an isolated Himalayan region of Pakistan/Afghanistan are a billion times more Macedonian than you, something which Greeks always recognised and never had a problem with. Those people ARE considered to be indeed descendants of Alexander the Great’s army, they even speak in an ancient Dorian GREEK dialect mixed with Sanskrit and have ancient GREEK customs. They still believe in the 12 Olympian GREEK Gods and Zeus and have a GREEK diet rich in fruits, vegetables and nuts. They even grow grapes for wine, something forbidden in neighbouring Muslim communities. Definitely more Macedonian than you and definitely GREEKS too…
But if you want to live with the illusion of a fake glory we won’t stop you. Just Stopp Bothering us.
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Slavoskopjaner!!
You are going to sleep????How bizzare! I though you were sleeping all along!!!! And dreaming too....
LOOOL
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To AlexanderMacedonia :
In which dream world do you live? Greece is a member state of the EU for decades and has many allies as well as enemies. Is one of the most powerful countries in the world with one of the most advancing economies in Europe at the moment. It has a history of invasions and failures from the invaders to change her.
Accept that you cannot use any name you like, accept you are neighbours with Greece and learn a bit of history. You can visit your dream world whenever you like but its not going to do good to you, I am telling you.
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Dear poor friends,
we appreciate your effort for surviving,
but not on our Own Major Interest and History.
Honest Proposition:
The name at stake as you put it is "MAKEDONIA"
We, GREEKS for 5.000 years are very polite and
civilized people so we let you get the first syllable, "MA".
We keep the second "KE".
So you can be call "MADONIANS".
This is a great advantage for you because:
1. You can have a modern emblem in the sun
of your flag. The famous singer "MADONNA"
2. You will please the USA because you are
the same kind of products like Madonna,
Made in USA.
____
I expect that you are so brave,
that you will send an answer.
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To macedonianer :
Go to sleep and dream on you will need that when you wake up to FYROM next morning.
Night night!!
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To misirkov:
If you dont accept to live in peace with your neighbours you will always live in poverty and war. That is what your rulers want so that they can control you better. Hope never dies but for you my friend hope has died decades ago since the time you decided to mess around with Greece. Many have tried that and all of them failed!
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AlexanderSlavoskojan said
'Macedonia will be Macedonia for ever'
Indeed I will agree with you 100%! And Greek too!
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MACEDONIAN PRIDE
i don't want any cm. of your or someother country, for me is enough what i have, but most important is to live togheter with all balcans popolation because we have something toghether more important than any teritory or alexandam makedonski wich is all past and history, for meis important the future and to belive eachother. if u don't belive in your neighbor who live by you, how can u sleep or belive in somebody who live on the other part of the world? we have also the same religion....
and pls.just to stop to talk about the politics read (u can fined also in internet) the treaty of bucarest from 1913. we can forget the past and have a nice view for the future, and maybe celebrate the easter togheter in ohrid or thessaloniki whithout any teritory pretention but as good neihghborhood and balkans, because fortunately or unfortunately we are there and near.
sorry but i feel macedonian even i dont't have anything to do with alexandar as well as you, THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BORN IN ROME IS CALLED ROMANS,AND THEY KNOW AS WELL THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH ROMAN IMPERIAL.
The politicans must do that because they need to optein something else which is much bigger than me and u togheter, but we, the people.... what we really need?????
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The joke has limits. There is no Macedonia No Macedonians , No Macedonian language. The only Macedonia that exist is the north province of Greece. These people are Bulgarians and Albanians, speak a Bulgarian dialect and they has to do with ancient Greeks and Alexander the Great so mutch, as we Greeks are similiar with Indians Tseroki. Their country as a part of Yugoslavia was called Bardarska until 1945, when Tito invented the idea to steal the Greek name Macedonia, in order to take one day the Greek part of Macedonia and to have his way out to Agean sea. All these with the cover of our "allies" , who didn't wand to make Tito to go with USSR. But if you have such allies , then there is no reason to have enemies.
The most schizofrenic of all is , that Americans pressing in many ways , and for their own reasons of course, to become them member of NATO. even these people declare in many ways that they are our enemies. they claime parts of our country, their constitusion has similiar articles , they teach their children that Greeks took their country and killed their grand parents and many many more. Is there a way to make someone ally , if his shaws in many ways that is your enemy?
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Dear Ivanik:
Your blog is really touching and moving. It is true that we have the same religion and everybody would be glad to celebrate the Orthodox Easter together except of some irresponsible hotheads here and there. The important thing is trust and understanding between neighbors. So let's try and understand each other's point of view and then everything will be alright.
You're a great guy!
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Being a Greek I cannot claim being impartial to this dispute. However, trying to answer Mr Mardell's question, I'll just add my two cents to the spirited discussion above.
The name I attribute to myself is Hellene.My people call themselves Hellenes. Our country is being called by its natives Hellas. The first Hellenes encountered by the Romans (2500 years ago) were a tribe somewhere in Epirus called Grecs and that's where the name attributed to me by all people speaking a language influenced by Latin comes from. So,I'm a Greek,my people are Greeks and our country is Greece for all Britons. I see no reason to protest for me being called by the name of a small tribe assimilated into more powerful Hellenic states eons ago and I see no reason to demand being called by the name I give myself. My national identity is not threatened in any way because a name cannot define my sense of nationality alone.
It seems the governments of FYROM feel differently. They try to convince the world that their name is so important that if it changed the basic human rights would be denied of them. However, my own example proves that the name others give them cannot be force fed.
Our people,Greeks believe that calling their state "Republic of Macedonia" is a definite territorial claim to the part of Greek territory by the same name? It stands to logic that a lot of countries would disagree with the Greeks naming their state "Byzantine Republic".The Byzantine empire extended a long way beyond Greek borders and a lot of people would be adverse to us proclaiming ourselves heirs of the medieval emperors.The same applies here.Why don't they budge although a name dipute is so "ridiculous" and "childish"?
Why do they bang on the door of Europe asking to gain entry,while they abuse one of the ones inside with claims of genocide and repression of minorities? The real question is: Would have ever Greece entered E.U. if it abused its minorities?This is a slur to the Union itself and everything it represents.
I wish them luck, because they definitely need it.....
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sadly the author didn't ask the Greek officials
about the Macedonians living in Greece who are afraid to even speak their language at home.
That my friend is at the hart of the issue!
When they talk about their civil war really they are talking about the resistance of the Macedonians in northern Greece who were promised autonomy during WWII only to be expelled and ethnically cleansed by the Greeks in their civil war. The Macedonian minority in Greece is their fear and they will try all kinds of magic tricks. In todays world they couldn't do ethnic cleansing so they are trying things like there is no Macedonian nation and there will not be the Republic of Macedonia, to extremes like there are 2 million Greeks calling themselves Macedonians? Yet those Macedonians speak greek not macedonian.
It is also interesting that NATO and EU are letting Macedonia solve the issue alone, saying that there is nothing that they can do, yet Greece is using precisely the NATO and EU mechanisms to blackmail Macedonia!
Veto anyone?
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We wish MEXICO start to
demand land rights over
NEW MEXICO.
Then we will start talking
stupid Americans!
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IVANIK!!
I dont have anything to say against all you said! Appart from a small question: Are there many like you?
If the answer is yes I am hopeful for a happy end! And soon!
Against all the best and sincerely we will be happy for you and all those like you to be our guest whenever you feel like it!
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IVANIK
If you are a Macedonian that makes two of us!
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Dear Krisny:
Maybe you didn't read the earlier posts on this blog. The country in question with respect to human rights is FYROM and not Greece. In 2001 the FYROM Albanians rioted against the ruling, oppressing elite of FYROM Slavs because their rights were violated. So please drop this game about pseudo-Macedonians that were persecuted by Greeks!
Take care of your own, current human and minority right problems in your country whatever you decide to call it!
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Macedonians should come together with serbs so greece can not bully you more.
remember YU greece was like a sheep to us, they were our servants when we go in greece for vacations, greeks didnt know the word vacations or never try it in Tito times.
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Dear Mitisisi:
I don't think Serbs will enjoy your idea as you broke away from Yugoslavia! Actually Greece and Serbia are long-term allies.
But if you want to try it go ahead and be my guest!
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To ivanik:
You can feel Macedonian as long as you like. That doesn't necessarily make you one though. You can claim whatever absurd nonsensical theory as truth but that doesn't make you Macedonian either. What all your claims and propaganda make you is people without history who claim another country's history. With all your hysteria you only prove that you would really like to be Greeks and share our history which is fine as long as you adopt Greek as your language and Greece as your country. Why don't you see the sadness of claiming territories and history from your neighbour in order to build a new country. Is that a good start you think?
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Mitisisi:
Have you actually ever met and talked with a Serb or are you just talking nonsense? In which dream world you think the Serbs would kick their only allies in the region?
Is that your hope? Well wake up my friend and see who is becoming the servant.
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oh Dmitri 74,
you seemed so reasonable for a while... Did you misread my posts that you should suddenly react so?
You asked a couple of questions earlier I forgot to respond to...about the flag ...but it could have been about the name of the airport... or any other imbecility on the part of the nationalist identity-builders here.
Well, I don't know the answer: ask them. All I can say, as I've said a hundred times, is that the name itself did not originate from a claim on Hellenic culture. Attack the pseudo-history her or there as much as you like, but why the name? And why the false premises for objecting to the name?
You asked what was wrong with the recent name solutions. Well, that's a matter of pride and politics: it's not easy to ask people to change the name of their nationality or language, however recently created--but how long ago would be enough for the Greeks anyway? Especially so when there's only a stick and no carrot, especially so when the whole debate brings into question what it means to be a nation and exposes the tenets of nationhood as false...especially so when to do so merely seems to be catering to the equally ludicrous myths of a larger neighbour.
As to American games here, I suffer no delusions. All states around here ally with greater powers as it suits their local aims. In the case of this state, it's a question of survival. What are you offering? So far only humiliation.
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Mitisisi
Thats a great idea! Yes go with Serbia! And good luck to the Serbs! They will need it!
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
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If FYROM wants to have a proper name to be identified as a nation, they should not steal a part of our history. Well, excuse us for having so much history! At least we do not try to take the name of other nation/country! Shame on you modern barbarians.
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Alexander the great was from the Greek Town Pella-Makedonia!! The Greek Makedonia! You will never be Makedonian’s. If you want to have this name only for your local development you focus on the wrong think… We are the first ancient democratic country in the world, so we know that very well!! We are not fascism, we are just fair and the true is hard!!! Next year in NATO!! OR maybe NEVER with this name!!!
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How a Slav can be Macedonian???? Greeks are not only feeling as Macedonias but also are and feeling as: Spartans, Athenians, Corinthians, Ageans, Thessalians, Macedonians, Thrakes, Messinians, Kretans, Rodians, etc. All these consisting the Hellenic Nationality for which I am proud. Why you are not proud to be a Slav or Albanian, whatever you really are?!
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To Fyromanians:
Just a few hours ago it was announced by the general secretary of Nato that the name dispute has to be resolved first with Greece and then FYROM will be accepted in Nato. As you can see your hopes are fading and all you will get in the end is the ethnic Albanians taking their part of your country, Bulgarians making their own claims and you become just a nice place for tourists to come and see the glory of ancient Greek Macedonia.
Well the country that is going to lose from this dispute is clear. Do you really want to see FYROM falling apart?
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To Mark Mardell
Is this a paid article by George Soros?!
Because it definitely looks like one…
Such an unabashed attempt to misconstrue the facts is not what I would expect from a newscast that used to be a paradigm for impartial journalism. It can only be expected by a hired hand for US foreign policy, which again proved to be completely out of step with modern realities. The name is not an issue, because history settled these matters once and for all, long time ago. We conceded to the use of a name like "New Macedonia", even though it still has no relevance to the true inheritance that this newly constructed national entity can rightfully claim. President Bush may have needed a petty foreign relations "success", but this is not really something we need to care for. It is his problem, among many other much more serious, but, after all, he is history himself, and in a few weeks nobody will really care. We, on the other hand, will have to live with a reality, which we did very well to avoid.
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I'm expecting Mark Mardell to analyze the following abstract:
Henry Kissinger: "The Greek people are anarchic and difficult to tame. For this reason we must strike deep into their cultural roots: Perhaps then we can force them to conform. I mean, of course, to strike at their language, their religion, their cultural and historical reserves, so that we can neutralize their ability to develop, to distinguish themselves, or to prevail; thereby removing them as an obstacle to our strategically vital plans in the Balkans, the Mediterranean, and the Middle East."
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And what is then your recipe Mr Misirkov! Just accept all your crap and lies and pretend everything is angelic???? Just sip your irredentist ultranationalist frenzy pretending everything is sweat and cosy? And as for pride and politics don’t apply only there but here too! Especially when your pride is an anathema for us and your politics the mechanics of disaster!
Everyone can spout clever generalities and sophistries Mr Misirkov!! But the problem is a real one! WE are Macedonians! We are Greeks! If you are not Greeks you cannot be ethnic Macedonians! It’s a clash! You need to change course! And spare me the clever bits! There is a full blown and despicable propaganda waging from your side! Are you blind?? Deaf??? Living in the cloud cookooland? What you expect us to do? Stay with crossed hands and pray for god?
For shake grow up and smell the coffee!
We are sick and tired of all this nonsense of yours and we can’t take any more!
You think we are nationalists?
I quite frankly don’t give a tosh!
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I support the Greek position. As an American, I would not like it if the northern Mexican province of Coahuila re-named itself The Republic of Texas. Considering that Texas forms an important part of American history and territory, I think most Americans would be upset as well, especially if the re-naming were to be accompanied by acts of irridentism such as those that have been perpetrated against the Greeks. Don't be fooled by George Bush's support of FYROM. He probably can't even find it on a map. The only thing Bush is interested in is creating another poor American protectorate in the heart of the Balkans, competing with Russian oil and creating more contracts for Halliburton. I respect the Greeks for sticking to their guns (and sticking it to Bush) in Bucharest. I would love to see Bush's face if Coahuila really called itself The Republic of Texas as Bush himself is a Texan. I know that many people consider this issue to be somewhat silly but, as the saying goes, everything is funny as long as it happens to someone else.
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Here is a sugestion: Republic of Free Macedonia...
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To the article and all of above 236 posts. Let me tell you something to you all.
I was born in Macedonia, my father was Macedonian, my grandfather was Macedonian, his grandfather was Macedonian. We have family history, bed time stories, churches, language, history, intellectuals, architecture, graveyards, books and various other things to prove it.
Having read enough about most of the mainstream history on this planet, and also: the Macedonian position about their right to call them self Macedonian; the Greek position that tries to make a nation non existent to hide the ethnic cleansing atrocities they performed over non greeks in the last century; the contemporary Greek internal and external politics; the minorities suing Greece of abuse of basic human rights in front of international courts; Greece claiming there aren't any minorities in it and it's 99.9% *pure* Greek; Greece claiming neighbors doesn't exist as people and denying their rights to name them self as they want; Hitler's attempt to rename a country before WW2; I can conclude only one thing:
The most feared evil in the world, over which WW2 was fought in an attempt to kill it and preserve human freedoms, and for which demise countless millions laid their lives down, is still alive in greece.
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I liked the Romeo and Juliet metaphor. I will make my point with another.
In Italian, fruit salad is called "Macedonia". Is it confusing? No. We all know what to expect when asking for a Macedonia in an Italian restaurant...
What if apples call to be named "Macedonia"? Pears and oranges wouldn't object to that? And what about the waiter? What shall he bring when we call for a "Macedonia"?
And somenthing else. The most famous Macedonian of last century was a Macedonian Turk. Kemal Ataturk, who was born in Thessaloniki. In his birth house is established the consulate of Turkey in Thessaloniki.
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MACEDONIA=HELLAS, to all pseudo"macedonians": this VETO was only the begining. stop playing yankee's games in balkans. wake up and realise that they use u.. how? i wait somebody to ask me
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My name is Stamatis, I am living in Thessaloníki. Am a Macedon, born out of Macedon parents. My grand parents have also been Macedons. So has been my great-grand father. As for those before them I do not know. For sure none of my known ancestors was named Alexander, but the fact is I believe I am a Greek. For Greek is my tongue, Greek is my culture, not to mention that Greek is my citizenship. Anyway please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. As for Alexander's passport, rumors are he was using his sword whenever he had to cross some borders. So did the British in India but this is another issue, fact remains that both of us should not have been in other people's places except maybe as tourists.
Unlike us, the other side does not seem to be homogeneous, they appear to be a mixture of ethnicities instead. This is not bad, the same thing happens for instance with Switzerland. But unlike the Swiss which independent of the language they speak (German, French or Italian) they are known to consider themselves as coming from one common state, this sadly is not the case with the people of FYROM. Most of them speak a language that Bulgarian people could easily identify as a dialect of their own. The rest are known to be Albanians -always looking towards Albania-, Serbs, maybe a few Turks not to mention a Greek minority living there, typically refugees since our civil war, sixty years ago.
It appears that the problem with their leadership has to do exactly with this lack of cohesion between the ethnic entities they comprise from. Clearly an ethic spin-off is something they would prefer not to happen and as far as I understand this is perfectly legitimate. People of the other side claim to be the real descendants of the ancient Macedons. As far as I know they are not, but I do not mind. Historically speaking this is somewhat laughable but it is still OK with me. Looks like their leaders having tried to find some idea to stick them together, have failed to come up with something better. As for the Greek government they have already stated they are ready to discuss a compound name for this country that could include Macedonia as a geographic term and this is as far as anybody can go before been called an idiot.
What most people here in Greece are afraid of, is the case of FYROM attempting to open a territorial dispute with Greece and this represents the big picture. Keeping an eye on some fantastic issues with Greece. could prevent them from focusing on their own domestic situation which I am sorry to say is not exactly ideal. That their propaganda at home has printed maps of their borders to be, which seem to contain most of what is currently the Greek Macedonia, is a bit of bad taste. That just a few years ago their government issued bank notes upon which I could easily identify the White Tower, the status symbol of my birth city, their future capital?, could not help our concerns either. I respect anyone's point of view, but in my own they seem to be teasing us.
Still the fact remains that FYROM does not represent a threat for Greece. They are too weak for this, they know it and we know it as well. In fact not only Greece is generously investing in their country, but also the use of the Greek infrastructures is a lifeline for them. Anyone reasonable enought would consider these as more important than their NATO or EU candidacy. About a decade ago we closed our the borders to them and they nearly suffocated, they absolutely depend on us.
Greece is very happy by what it already has, the status quo is just perfect with us. What we do mind though is the possibility of FYROM moving against Greece in the event of a confrontation with Turkey, as a sort of a second front. Under such circumstances, perhaps they could be a problem and hostilities are generally regarded as serious by most. From our perspective settling this issue does not suffice. Closing it is a must. This is what dictated the Greek government to tolerate a compound name with Macedonia as a component. Elementary dear Watson, they have to take something to keep them happy even if they are not up to it. But it takes two to tango and the blacks move...
For the record this fire 'em has been a long shot, come on Mark you can do better than that, I am sure.
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Sadly, I must say that Macedonia could not be a proper name for this region of Balkan. First at all Slavic people in this region recently took name of greek province of Macedonia. There were different Slavic tribes who found old region name as connection for nation building. Second, in this region live people who don't see themself as Slavic Macedonians but Turks, Albanians, Gorani, Roma and they are forced to accept panslavic name stolen from Greeks. Some texts here talk about terror over Slavs 90 years ago but they have forgotten that just couple years ago Macedonian Army and Police forces have attacked peacefull albanian villagers in Macedonia. First citizens of this former Yugoslav Republic should negotiate construction of new state and than we could talk about name of that state which sure should not be Macedonia.
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test
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Just few points I want to make
1 Macedonia was divided in 1913 and then when Greece took this part that they claim it is Greek for "thousands of years"
2 In 1920 Greece had books pulblished for Macedonian minority in Greece and all of a sudden there is no such a nation.
3 Up to 1985 the word Macedonia was fordiben in Greece they had Ministry for Thesalia and Northern Greece
4 Up to 1991 when Republic of Macedonia broke from Yugoslavia they used the official name SOCIALISTIC REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA until Macedonia droped SOCIALISTIC from its name..
5 How it is possible that Greece is only country in Europe that does not have minorities (I don't see how is that possible in the Balkans)
6 I know that there is Macedonians in Greece because my background is from there and my grandmother still lives there (by the way she is 91 and learned Greek when she was in her 20 around 1935 when Metaxas was in power)
7 Why if all is correct as Greece says why they are affraid of opening their archives
8 And in the end can someone explain to me where in the world someone can tell me what is my name...Based on the United States of America should change the name because there is also South North and Central America.....Britain should change the name because there is Bretania in France or Georgia should change the name because there is state of Georgia in U.S.A.
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The Kingdom of Greece, was a state established in 1832 in the Convention of London by the Great Powers (the United Kingdom, France and the Russian Empire).
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I honestly cannot believe that there could be a "movement" to take in Greek Macedonia in order to gain access to the sea. The Greeks and the Yugoslav's have been so close, historically, that even if a group wanted to do this, the majority in FYROM would quickly condemn the issue altogether.
That being said, since the Greeks have been so worried about it all, I think Macedonia should maybe look into changing its name...and its flag, as both are unattractive anyway, in my opinion.
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I think that a lot of the posts here that talk about Greeks "living on occupied land" prove the [Slav] Macedonian irridentism that Greece's foreign mnister was talking about. It sounds irrational at first, but it becomes evident when such sentiment surfaces in blogs and message boards across the internet whenever this topic is discussed.
Can we please debate the name issue in a more rational fashion?
Greece is not "occupying" anyone's land. For the record, even before the population exchange with Turkey, Greeks outnumbered other ethnic groups in Greek Macedonia. There were also large Turkish, Bulgarian, and Jewish populations; the region never "belonged" to [ethnic] Macedonians who were outnumbered in Greek Macedonia during Ottoman rule by the other ethnic groups. But this [factual] version of events doesn't fit the [ethnic] Macedonian construct of an occupied nation who [allegely] originally inhabited the entire greater region of the same name.
But this shouldn't matter anyways; Europe's international borders, including those of Yugoslavia's successor states, were finalized after WWII, with population exchanges (which some [ethnic] Macedonians insist we recognize as "genocides") occurring across the continent from Poland-Germany, to Germany-Czechoslovakia, to Poland-USSR, to the southern Balkans.
For all the accusations that Greeks are distorting history, it seems that many [ethnic] Macedonians are doing just this, in order to construct a predator-vs-victim narrative. As I said earlier, their demand to be called whatever they wish is perfectly reasonable. I just don't like some of the erroneous "facts" that some [ethnic] Macedonians use to support their argument, that Greece is "occupying foreign land" and all the usual baseless propaganda in blogs and message boards across the internet.
As I note earlier, it seems that some amateurs are constructing this narrative in order to convince British and American internet users to give a care, and to demonize Greece. However, the only effect this is having is that it's promoting Greek nationalism by alienating Greeks who are more moderate on the issue. And it's also alienating the growing number of Greeks who just don't really care all that much anymore after 18 years (including a growing number of Greeks who consider this a smokescreen political issue).
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I would just like to say to dimitri74 that he may benefit if he thought a little harder about the meaning of words such as "evidence" and "speculation" which he so tiresomely invokes. I suggest a starting point might be the following article:
Panayote Dimitras: "Greece should accept the existence of the Republic of Macedonia"
Skopje, April 1 (MIA) - "Greece should accept the existence of the Republic of Macedonia
and stop with the policy that leads nowhere," declared Greek Helsinki Committee chairman Panayotis Dimitras on the Macedonian TV program "Voice of the People".
"Greece must understand and realize that the Republic of Macedonia exists, the Macedonian people and language exist, and thus must accept all these things
and put an end to the policy that leads nowhere", stressed Dimitras.
According to him, the problem is Greek public opinion, which has never been informed about what basic human rights are, or rights in line with the international law.
" Greeks believe that Greece has the unique right to this name [Macedonia]; and the name issue is in the limelight at the NATO summit, instead of concern about mutual cooperation, and the future and security of the region".
He also reiterated the statement of former Greek PM Mitsotakis, who said that the conflict with the Republic of Macedonia is not related to the name, but that the real problem related to the Macedonian minority in Greece.
"People in Greece are afraid that if a country under the name "Macedonia" is recognized, Greece would have to recognize the Macedonian minority on its own territory. If the country is recognized under a different name, then Greece will not have to recognize
this minority. The problem is that the Greek people do not know, or nobody has told them, that the Macedonian minority in Greece was recognized by the European
Human Rights Court ten years ago, when it passed a judgment against Greece, because it does not recognize its Macedonian minority", states the Greek Helsinki Committee chairman.
Dimitras went on to insist that according to the European Court, Greece has not recognized either the Macedonian minority, nor Turkish associations in the country. He referred to Monday's decision by the court to revoke (for the second time) Greece's decision
regarding the two Turkish associations that are not recognized in Greece, because they contain the word "Turkish" in their name.
"All minorities should have their freedom. As long as minorities do not call for violence, they should have the democratic freedom to express themselves. Unfortunately, Greece does not allow this, and will not do so in the near future. Moreover, Greece is tolerated by its friends, the EU and Council of Europe partners to act in this manner for they have never really called Greece to account for such a stance", underlines the Greek Helsinki Committee chairman Panayotis Dimitras.
Is this evidence or speculation? ( I suspect among the countless chauvinists of all colours on or from the Balkans, Mr Dimitras is a far more rare species - a very decent human being.)
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And one more thing:
Greece is not "the only country in Europe not to recognize minorities". This is actually very common among Western European countries (countries in Europe that were never Communist), including France and Germany. The logic is that ethnicity is completely irrelevant to citizenship; all citizens are equal in the eyes of the state. The Communist approach to "nationalities" was one of official ethnic classification of all citizens; this paradigm has carried over to the post-Communist era in many post-Communist countries.
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The history of Macedonians is hidden in the World's archives. With the invent of Internet, it is easier to uncover the truth. To all those claiming that Macedonians were a communists' invention in the 1940's, it is recommended to search the online database of the USA Immigration Office:
http://www.ellisisland.org/
where it is documented that Macedonians with original Macedonian names (not Greek) have immigrated in USA since the very opening of the Immigration Office in 1892.
Interesting facts can be uncovered from this database. Namely, if we narrow the search only to the part of Macedonia which is now occupied by Greece, there is a continuation of the immigration of Macedonians to the USA, unlike Greeks who have started to immigrate from this region only after 1915. I.E. two years after the Greece’s occupation of that part of Macedonia.
This part of Macedonia has been named “the newly occupied territories” in official Greece’s governmental documents in that time.
There are many foreign witnesses for the genocide that Greeks did over the Macedonian people. One should be interested in the Report of the Carnegie Commission in 1914.
The exodus of the Macedonians from that part of Macedonia in 1948 is also well known in many countries who accepted the refugees (Czecho-Slovakia, Poland, Russia, Ukraine, Uzbekistan, …, the whole former Yugoslavia).
The Germans apologized for their victims in the WW2, and that is the proper way to do it. Today Macedonians would accept the Greeks’ apology, but they have to admit it. Oh sorry, they have to admit that there exist Macedonians in a first place! And that’s exactly the catch behind the Greeks’ hysteria about the name of Macedonia. No Macedonia – no Macedonians, no crimes in the past, everything has been Greek, always.
The Greeks have to accept the fact that in the north of their country there live people who self-determine themselves as Macedonia and have created a country named Macedonia, since 1944.
In the occupied lands it has been forbidden to mention the name Macedonia or Macedonians until 20 years ago. The region was named Northern Greece, until in 1988, the Greek’s policy has made a spectacular turn-over and started to rename everything to be Macedonian, but this time claiming “Macedonia is Greek”.
The regions in the northern Greece are called today “West Macedonia”, “Central Macedonia” and “Eastern Macedonia and Trace”. The situation is the same as if the UK would demand that Ireland changes its name because it has a federal unit called Northern Ireland.
Another argument which appears in many Greek texts is that Macedonians are Slavs who came to the Balkans in the 6th century and hence do not have the right to call their country Macedonia.
How about if Macedonians and Slavs were actually the same people!!! Read about the recent deciphering of the middle text of the Rosetta Stone, which shows that the Ancient Macedonians, who ruled with Egypt for over 300 years, actually spoke a Slav dialect.
http://rosetta-stone.etf.ukim.edu.mk/EN/index.html
The theory that Slavs came into Europe and into Balkans in the 6th century from a region behind the Karpati mountains has been created by the German politicians in the middle of the 19th century to justify their “right” to the whole Europe. And this argument has been used against other Slav nations like Czechs and Slovenians. See the text "Origin of the speeches" on
http://www.veneti.info
If the Slavs came from behind the Karpati then Ukraine would have been called Usredina (“In the center”) and not Ukraina (“In the far end”). The phrase “Behind the Karpati” first appeared in a history book in Ukraine in the Middle Ages and has ever since been copied and pasted in all history books without worrying to whom it is “behind”. That’s why the first president of the Republic of Macedonia has once or twice said that Macedonians have nothing to do with Ancient Macedonians, because he was taught so.
Even if it is admitted that Slavs came to Macedonia in the 6th century, what happened to the Ancient Macedonians!?! At least it should be admitted that they have mixed.
So who gives the right to contemporary Greeks to forbid somebody’s name?!?
EU is so hypocritical about this matter. It defends Greece, so UK and France vote in her favor at the Security Council of UN, only to present some unifying foreign policy of EU. But in the case of Kosovo, EU did not have to have a unifying foreign policy anymore, but rather each country can recognize it in its own opinion!
By simply and only watching how the basic human right for self-determination of Macedonians is being abused by Greece, the EU and NATO became co-participants of a crime. It is never late to stop the crime. It should start by immediate admition of the Republic of Macedonia in UN under its eternal name Macedonia.
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Regarding post 249 from skye_eg.
Is it also common among countries to deny basic human freedoms as well?
http://www.echr.coe.int/Eng/Press/2005/Oct/ChamberjudgmentOuranioToxovGreece201005.htm
From that article:
"The Court held unanimously that there had been:
* a violation of Article 6 § 1 of the European Convention on Human Rights (right to a fair hearing) on account of the length of proceedings;
* a violation of Article 11 of the Convention (freedom of assembly and association)."
Let me summarize it for you, the case name is: "Ouranio Toxo and Others v. Greece"
Greece VIOLATED the European Convention on Human Rights.
You can try to defend your position now.
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Why are these maps of "Greater Macedonia" used to infuse the younger generation of the FYROM population with irredentist views ohh, and their as of yet "unliberated brothers"?? Some of these websites created by these Skopians are truly a great work of fiction. The fact is and remains that FYROM makes specific claims on the inheritance of ancient Macedonia. Take a look at how the Skopians commenting here challenge the Greekness of Alexander the Great and the Greek province of Macedonia. This is because they and their government use, as one of the main weapons in their propaganda struggle, the vexed issue of the existence of a Slavic minority in Greek Macedonia. They are correct, yes indeed. The "Rainbow Party" the Slavic minority associates with has a whopping 5,000 voters! I'd say there are as many Greeks in FYROM as there are Slavs in Greece. All the citizens of the Greek province of Macedonia are Macedonians, so how can there be a "Macedonian" minority? If the Greek state admits the presence of a "Macedonian" minority, then the same state would invalidate the identity of the overwhelming majority (99.5%) of the citizens of the province. Which Greek government would even attempt to remove my identity and the identity of virtually all of my fellow citizens? I can not understand why the government in Skopia demands Greece recognize this minority and give it "Macedonian" status. What is with the people of FYROM that they cannot grasp such an easy concept? People of FYROM may disagree with a lot of things but surely they can exercise basic logic, can't they? Is it difficult to understand that we are as strongly attached to our identity as they claim to be? Or are they emotionally unable to admit this because then then would have to admit that we need to reach some kind of solution to a vexing problem? What makes them think that I am not a Macedonian and, in fact, much more of a Macedonian than they are?
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In post 252 Kyonite seems to have some troubles calling people Macedonians:
"FYROM population"
"Skopians "
"Slavic minority "
'people of FYROM"
I'm just wondering if I should label his post as ethnical racism or it's more dreadful form.
Let me put something that the rest of the 6 billion on the planet are trying to obey and kyonite and the rest on this blog are trying to go against
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
Let me paste the relevant articles I think their logic violates:
Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.
Article 15.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
Article 20.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.
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Ridiculous, ha? How many Americans found the recent Absolut ad "ridiculous"? Probably a few did (and some may even liked it) but I guess that's not why the company immediately withdrew it and issued an apology. In our case, this is not done by a vodka company, it is done by the government of FYROM. What bugs me most is that their children and youth are educated to believe that a neighbouring country is "occupying" "their" territory. This is 19th century irredentism and if we are to accept this as a "legitimate" viewpoint, then you shouldn't wonder why the Balkans remain an unstable and problematic region. There are actually more Greek Macedonians living in (Greek) Macedonia (2.5 million) than Slav Macedonians in FYROM (1.5 million). If FYROM succeeds in monopolizing the name what's to become of the Greek Macedonians' right to "self-determination"? This issue is not only about ancient history. The Greek civil war 1946-1949 was ultimately fought over control of Greek Macedonia. Most of the Slav-macedonian population then residing in greek territory sided with the communists in an attempt to annex it to the other parts, thus forming "Greater Macedonia", an objective that was endorsed by Commintern in the 1920s, under the Bulgarian Sec.General Dimitrov. The UN resolutions of 1949 recognised this as a direct threat to Greece's sovereignity by the -then newly communist- regimes in Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Albania: [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator] After their defeat, Greek and Slav-macedonian communists withdrew their forces into the eastern bloc, the latter still residing in today's FYROM. It's therefore not inexplicable why they show such bitterness and animosity towards Greece as their cries about an alleged "genocide" show. In fact, they are the ones who should be accused of such practises because of their kidnapping of infants and children so that they can be "righteously indoctrinated" under communist rule (read the UN document). Today in (Greek) Macedonia there are a few thousand people who want to be called (simply) "Macedonians" instead of Greek Macedonians thus presenting to be FYROM's minority in Greece. They have formed a political party (Ouranio Toxo) which is voted by friends and relatives receiving approx. 5000 votes each time. Greece's objection to them is the same as with FYROM's name. Greece cannot recognize a "macedonian" language or minority in a greek territory called Macedonia. (It's as if there were a "scottish" minority in Scotland, or a "texan" minority in Texas.) If you think you are "some other kind of" Macedonian, i.e. Slav-macedonian, then that's how I can call you so that you can be differentiated from Greek Macedonians. But they don't accept any of this. The monopoly of the Macedonia's name, history and culture seem to be the same objective here.
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Mark, you had it coming. For a topic that you wryly trivialized by means of your various puns (not all of them very successful), the 255 posts currently on display tell a different story. Welcome to Balkans where even names matter.
As I've already said, nationalists on both sides are running amok. Descriptions like Fyromians etc. are really insulting, are meant to hurt, and really disgrace me as a Greek. I apologize. We've also seen here the same kind of amateuristic history that is such a great hit on youtube, in various discussion groups, and other internet sites: DNA tests, linguistic surveys, ethnicity tests (I liked the one about why Alexander didn't participate in the Olympics; answer: he was too busy slaughtering people in the Near and Middle East, and unfortunately I am not joking).
The recurring pattern is disheartening in its banality: for every Greek claiming that the [ethnic] Macedonians do not exist, there is one [ethnic] Macedonian claiming a monopoly of the name (Macedonia). But the discussion should move on, and I would like to raise certain points that, strangely enough, haven't been mentioned so far.
The matter of fact is that the Greek position has changed over time. Back in the early 90s when the dispute first broke out, the Greeks were adamant: "we will not tolerate any form of the term Macedonia as the official name of the Republic" (FYROM was perceived as a kind of concession on behalf of the Greek state). Just for the historical record, this maximalistic approach turned out to be a wasted opportunity: for in 1992-3 the then Greek prime minister (the right-wing K. Mitsotakis, father of minister Bakoyanni) was sensible enough to want to strike a deal with the new independent Republic on the basis of the name "Slavomakedonja" (not sure about the spelling). It seems that back then this name was felt as acceptable by the Republic, the Albanian minority not being as yet a power to reckon with. Anyway, the then nationalist Greek minister of foreign affairs A. Samaras disagreed and eventually toppled his own government (which, by the way, for internal Greek politics was a good thing, if you want my opinion, since Mitsotakis' government at the time was pursuing a policy of extreme neo-liberalism). But for the name dispute, this was, as I have said, a missed opportunity and it might have hurt the Greek cause irreversibly (time will show). Move forward to 2008, and the picture has changed. Greece now tries to "convince" the Republic to accept some name such as Upper, New, or North Macedonia. By itself this is an implicit recognition of diplomatic defeat on behalf of Greece, and at the same time it is a concession. I am not saying that this is a solution that the [ethnic] Macedonians ought to accept, but, given that the name affair is considered to be a dispute involving two parts, Greece can now claim that it has made a concession. In any case, for internal reasons this dramatic change of Greek policy happened in a secretive way. Incidentally, various surveys show that at least half the Greek population are not ready to accept any name containing any form of the term "Macedonia" for the Republic. I am stressing this, because it shows that public opinion has adopted a more extreme line than its government, certainly a worrying aspect.
I thought I had to communicate these facts to highlight an aspect of the problem that did not come out in Mark's article. And one last correction (for the moderate ethnic Macedonians out there): I have been reading recently, and I read it several times in this forum, that before the early 1990s Greece did not use the term "Macedonia" to describe its northern region. This is wrong. The region has been officially called "Macedonia" since 1913. What changed in the late 1980s/early 1990s (not sure when) was the title of the Ministry of Northern Greece, which became Ministry of Macedonia and Thrace. And in case you are wondering, yes, the new name of the ministry was introduced as a diplomatic weapon for the name dispute.
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The Creation of Greece in 1832, started this bizarre nonsense on who should be called the real Macedonians-Macedonia.
all this nonsence started, when they created greece from the burning ashes of the ancient world, and given a mythical history, further there was never an ancient greece but athen's, sparta, ect. so-called city states later renamed as greek states by modern history, whereas the ancient macedonians did exist as a separate entity, and the later 6 century slavs didn't, isn't real facts on any arrivals of slavic tribes may it be that ancient macedonians return home after many centuries away, we will never know the truth but , todays macedonians have all the rights to call themselfs macedonians, with pride, so-called greeks chose to call themselfs greece/greek, instead of macedonia, so be it.
greeks please read your real history greeks, and think twice what your ancestors did within the balkan wars, the genocide crimes committed aqains't innocent people isn't something that your new greek nation should be proud of.
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As for the history of the region, other commentators have truthfully pointed out that Greeks were a majority in Greek Macedonia form the beginning of the 20th century.
What formulates FYROM's slav population began as part of the bulgarian population in Macedonia under Ottoman rule.
Their attempt to formulate a newly "macedonian" identity clashed with their Bulgarian origin and this debate holds until even today.
FYROM's former prime minister, Ljubco Georgievski, an extreme nationalist (!), last year adopted a Bulgarian passport, claiming himself a Bulgarian:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljubco_Georgievski
It is not our business how they finally choose to call themselves.
But none's right to self-identification is to be used against the same right of others.
That's what the name issue is all about.
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In response to read_this:
I find is strange that you chose to criticize two Greeks who seem to express relatively moderate views (moderate in relation to the venom of some other comments).
As for the articles of human rights you have pasted: I totally agree. But it is on the basis of these same articles that the people of the Greek region of Macedonia have chosen to call themselves Macedonians as well. The question then may be returned: don't they have the right to define themselves in whatever way they like? The answer, as you will surely find out, is not that easy. And to anticipate a possible answer, it is not sufficient to call themselves Greek Macedonians. The inhabitants of the island of Crete call themselves Cretans (not Greek Cretans), those of Thessaly call themselves Thessalians (not Greek Thessalians) etc.
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I really feel ashamed by the one-sided approach of this article. I do not think that this is a serious journalistic approach.
Since, I think that almost all opinions (from both sides) have been reflected in this blog, I would just like to ask one question to the people from Fyrom.
Why did your president make all these statements? And what is your opinion about them?
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35.)
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The ancient Macedonians no longer exist, they had disappeared from history long time ago. Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992)
(after these comments, there was a terrorist attack on the ex-president of the F.Y.R.O.M. Kiro Gligorov. It nearly cost him his life)
Please I would appreciate your answers... I just try to undertand your position and as a consequence will help me understand mine also.
Thank you in advance for your answers,
Elena
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GREECE DIDN'T INHERIT THE LAND OF MACEDONIA-EPIR.
Greece only adopted the name Macedonia in 80's, before that not one word of Macedonia mentioned.
wrong wrong, the people didn't choose to call themselfs macedonians, but the greek goverment changed it in the 80's as northerm macedonia, before that only macedonians in greece was the so-called slavophones others never used the word macedonian, but just greek, I know it personally as my family is from florina region.
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The name dispute would be a minor problem if Greece had more civilized neighbors. Unfortunately the slavic country of Vardaska or FYROM is inhabited by nationalists that have illusions about the history and big expectations for the future. Greece is a stabilizing country and always supports peace. My grandparents were refugees and their parents too. We have survived centuries under the ottoman rule and Mark Mardell's words are very offensive. I was wondering if Mark Mardell had any similar stories to tell from his family but since his country has been always oppressing other nations I doubt if we can share the same memories and ideas. As for Macedonia, this was always greek and Britain wanted to give a gift to Tito so that he want be with Stalin's side and Greece as a british friend did not oppose this plan. You should start respecting your friends at some point instead of offending them.
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Hi-ball should be representing Greece in it's mediation with Macedonia because unlike most pro-Greeks here, he has the ability to define and admit when somethings are just absurd to the rest of us, including Italian-Americans such as I.
It may be reason; it may be rhyme; in the end it seems that for Greek Citizens, living in Greece who are discriminated because of their Macedonian religion, national origin, or ethnicity (such as the members of the EFA Rainbow Political Party of Macedonian Minority),
it is becoming necessary for one people (EFA Macedonians in Greece) to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another (the Greek government), and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
Specifically, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed
AND UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE DOES THE GREEK GOVERNMENT HAVE THE RIGHT TO DENY THESE RIGHTS TO ANY MINORITIES IN GREECE OR OUT OF GREECE, WHETHER TURK, ALBANIAN, IRAQI OR MACEDONIAN!
Hi-ball you should be meeting with the Macedonian delegation and Nimitz instead of wasting your time with these futile and one sided folk who only discredit the Greek position more and more with every stroke of the keyboard.
Best of Luck to You!
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As someone born in Greece who has had to endure challenges to my identity by Greeks every time I happened to mention that I was Macedonian, the attitudes of those who defend the indefensible Greek position are regrettably familiar.
The super Greeks ( or mega Ellines) who appeal to"the glory of ancient Greek civilisation" as if they were there themselves or had anything to do with it are usually the most off-putting. The entries on this blog of that type of chauvinist can be very ugly. There are obviously complex and serious issues here to do with the history of Ottoman oppression and the need to feel like "men" after centuries of humiliation. Yes, dimitri 74, I really am speculating this time.
Hi- ball 256 is very reasonable and thankfully not a racist but he does take on so with that superior tone of his.
Let us leave aside the questions begged about the relevance of ancient history for the present dispute. The idea that one can claim credit for and feel pride in the achievements of ancient peoples because one was born in the same territory over two thousand years later is, to use a variant on Mark Mardell's suggestive first sentence, ridiculous childishness. And to use this view of history (all interpretations of history are misinterpretations when used for reasons of state) to justify the oppression of another group or deny them their human rights is lunacy.
I find Socrates very admirable philosopher. Should I feel proud that I was born on the Balkan peninsula not far from where Socrates had his amazing chats with people in the Athenian agora in the 5C BCE? If I am going to be feeling proud of any other human being, shouldn't I feel proud of the remarkable Confucius who lived more or less at the same time as Socrates on the other side of the world?
However, I don't believe Socratic or Confucian reason and humanism are the major determinants of historical events but they certainly are very worthwhile ideals.
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There are many Macedonians who are proud of their Greek identity but find it hard to manifest it in today's FYROM.
FYROM has been denying the basic human rights of their Albanian minority for years and only their violent uprising in 2001 seemingly force them to take it into consideration.
This is the result of an extreme nationalistic and chauvinistic point of view that is unfortunately not marginal there.
It permeates the entire political spectrum of the ruling elite who is anxious to hold together a heterogeneous population.
There is where the claims of a glorious -but unrelated to them- past come in so that it can compensate for the very real issues of poverty, corruption, unemployment etc.
A compromise can only be reached if they become reasonable enough to acknowledge the historic and geographical realities of the region.
Unfortunately I can't see that happening anytime soon, to the detriment of their own people who will continue to pay the price of a less than adequate leadership.
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Why is so difficult to live on the Balkans?
Apart from the name dispute - many peolpe here from different countries (i assume) did mention that the Bulgarians also play a role in the game. (see berlin congress http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Berlin). These participants also mention that the so called Macedonian language is very close to Bulgarian nad at the same time there is No Bulgarian minority in Macedonia. How come?
And about the US support for the Tito's project - yes, they want a foothold on the Balkans. It's true they have it already with the bases in Bulgaria, Romania, Greece, Turkey, Kossovo but one more won't do harm and the Russians are knocking on the door with their gas.
Imagine that the picture is more unified the way it should be. Then FYROM will disappear and this is one base less. Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, Romania are all states with istory - independent and interwind. On the contrary - FYROM and Kossovo are not and their existence is purely a US product. So imagine that all the firs countries mentioned decide to act in a different, not American way, following their national interests? It is very hard to do it but it is possible (Greek veto). This crearly is going against the US interest. Now imagine the latter two doing it (FYROM and Kossovo)??? You can't? Ah, I can't blame you, even th ekids don't have such a rich imagination.
Conclusion - follow you TRUE national interest but never on the expense of your neighbours! Take the truth our about this Frankenstein on the Balkans - FYROM!
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Just one thisng:
Everybody speaks about the Treaty of Bucharest 1913 and no one mentions the Bulgaria was hardest hit! Attacked from all its neighbours - Serbs, Turks, Romanians and Greeks and its territory and population was cut to the advantage of the others. Hello?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Bucharest_(1913)
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Now, who is an ethnic Macedonian? Come on, give us a definition. Because we would all love to have a laugh here. Are Macedonians (including the Prime Minister of the Hellenic Republic) who live in the Greek province of Macedonia ethnic Macedonians and if they are not, why not?
If the people of FYROM insist on calling themselves "Macedonians" or "ethnic Macedonians", then we are at an impasse. If they would like to call themselves Nova Macedonians, New Macedonia, etc, etc, then, I assure you that there will be no problem. Allowing a small minority to corner the designation "Macedonian" would not be allowed, when a substantial component of the Greek population of Macedonia are as ethnic as the Slav Macedonians (such as me, as my family resided in Macedonia for centuries...as far back as records go).
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Mark, you are certainly a glutton for punishment.
Last time you ventured into the Balkans you stirred up a hornets' nest. Now you've gone and done it again.
Having said that, the above correspondence is nearly as much fun as mud wrestling - surely an ancient olympic sport (wasn't Alexander the Great's younger sister champion in the 326 Olympic Games [not held in China!])
BTW, Does the British taxpayer subsidise any of these squabbling people? I do hope not.
Mercutio's dying words apply here very well.
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The history of the "Republic of Macedonia":
The Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization was founded in 1893 in Ottoman Thessaloniki by a "small band of anti-Ottoman Bulgarian revolutionaries.
They considered Macedonia an indivisible territory and all of its inhabitants "Macedonians", no matter their religion or ethnicity.
The organisation was a secret revolutionary society operating in the late 19th and early 20th centuries with the goal of uniting Macedonia with Bulgaria in a federated Slav State. They shortly after realized that ideal was too similar to San Stefano Bulgaria and changed course an strive for an autonomous, free and independent state.
According to Ivan Hadzhinikolov(one of the founders)
The five basic principles of the MRO's foundation:
1.The revolutionary organization should be established within Macedonia and should act there, so that the Greeks and Serbs couldn't label it as a tool of the Bulgarian government.
2.Its founders should be locals and living in Macedonia.
3.The political motto of the organization should be the autonomy of Macedonia.
4.The organization should be secret and independent, without any links with the governments of the liberated neighborly states, and
5.From the Macedonian emigration in Bulgaria and the Bulgarian society, only moral and material help for the struggle of the Macedonian revolutionaries should be required.
Dr. Hristo Tatarchev(another founder):
"We talked a long time about the goal of this organization and at last we fixed it on autonomy of Macedonia with the priority of the Bulgarian element. We couldn't accept the position for "direct joining to Bulgaria" because we saw that it would meet big difficulties by reason of confrontation of the Great powers and the aspirations of the neighbouring small countries and Turkey. It passed through our thoughts that one autonomous Macedonia could easier unite with Bulgaria subsequently and if the worst comes to the worst, that it could play a role as a unificating link of a federation of Balkan people. The region of Adrianople, as far as I remember, didn't take part in our program, and I think the idea to add it to the autonomous Macedonia came later."
Although IMRO was predominantly ethnic Bulgarian since its establishment, it favoured the idea of an autonomous Macedonia and preferred to disassociate itself from official Bulgarian policy and was not under Bulgarian control. Its founding leaders believed that an autonomous movement was more likely to find favour with the Great Powers than one which was a tool of the Bulgarian government.
Can you now understand what you are? Can you know see that you are not one nation but a mixture of the local nations? Can you now see that you are Bulgarians, Greeks, Turks, Serbs and Albanians?
YOU DO NOT EXIST. AT LEAST WE DO...
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I am a macedonian,(actually i come from the Greek region of macedonia).My grandfather spoke 3 languages (Turkish,Greek and Bulgarian-that's how he called the so called macedonian language).His father faught in the macedonian struggle (as we Greeks call the fight that took place between 1904-1908 for the control over the ottoman region of macedonia ).Although he spoke Bulgarian(i think you prefer the word "macedonian" but i am afraid i know better) he had no touble of calling himself a Greek or even any hesitation.He even had a couple of brothers shot dead by Bulgarians during this fight.During and after the end of the civil war here in Greece many children of this great-grand father of mine fled to Bulgaria,Yugoslavia etc seeking refuge as they were communists.Most of them found themselves living in Skopje at mid 50's,(Tito was offering houses to gather them and they felt closer to the homeland).Yes i do have relatives living in Skopje but do not wish to learn anything about them.Their parents and grandparents(the ones who fled) were corresponding with my grandparents in Greek and all they wanted was to be burried in Greece.But their descendants-after 60 years of propaganda-consider themselves to be a new nation even though their parents didn't.My family had suffered after the civil war (they were pro-communists) but so did families from Thessaly,Thrace,athens etc.The last remnants of these harsh times were gone by the late 70's.I always knew i was a Macedonian the same way a Cretan knows he is a Cretan,or a Thracian or a Cypriot etc.Nobody ever told me it was forbidden to say that.The maps in my school always showed northern Greece as Macedonia (this was during the junda years 1967-1974).I never had any problems with my heritage.I consider all this problem a myth created by a foreign power that wants de-stabilisation in the Balkans.This plan is familiar to us (the ottomans were good in it).What is strange though is that the ottomans (although supported the divide and conquer tactic) never mentioned anything about a "macedonian" nation.They spoke of Rum-Yunan(Greeks),Bulgarian,Serbs,Albanian even Jews were mentioned as a different ethnic group.You should know that the ottoman rule at the region lasted for almost 600 years(they can't be that wrong!).I consider the citizens of Skopje to be Albanians,Bulgarians (as their former prime-minister Mr Georgievsky aknowledged himself to be),Serbs,Turks, Roma and finally yes i thing there is a signifficant Greek minority living there.They can be anything they want...they can't be macedonians simply because i am (i think that this is their argument but they should know it can work both ways).
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How the Kingdom of Greece was "Created"
Read how Greece was Created and read some more get some common sensence sould prevail we hope. no further comments needed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Greece
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Occupying the bigger part of northern Greece, Macedonia first appears on the historical scene as a geographical-political unit in the 5th century BC, when it extended from the upper waters of the Haliakmon and Mount Olympus to the river Strymon. In the following century it reached the banks of the Nestos. The history of the Macedonians, however, may be said to commence somewhere around the beginning of the 7th century BC; at this time the Greek tribe of the Makedones, whose home was in Orestis, began to expand, driving out the Thracians and contending with the Illyrians, and gradually occupied Eordaia, Bottiaia, Pieria and Almopia, finally settling in the region called by Thucydides "Lower Macedonia, or Macedonia by the Sea".
The Ancient Macedonians were undoubtedly a Greek tribe; either a north-western tribe related to the Dorians and Epirots, or an Aeolic one related to the Aeolians of Thessaly.
Thucydides, and later Arrian, Polybious, Titus Livius and others confirm, directly or indirectly, that the Macedonians were Greeks.
It must be noted that the recent excavations at Vergina, in addition to other very important finds regarding the history of Macedonia, have brought to light, a series of inscribed grave stelai which can be dated with certainty to the second half of the 4th and the beginning of the 3rd c. B.C. These inscriptions as we know from the description of Prof. M. Andronikos present a very significant collection of common Macedonian names, male and female, numbering 75. All these names are Greek, such as ????ta?, ????µ??, ????a???, ?e?????t??, ?e????a??, ??e???? - except for one (?µ?d????) which is Thracian - and many of them are characteristically Macedonian and unknown to Attica, attesting to their Macedonian origin. These names refute the theory that only the ruling class had become hellenized, because they do not belong to the royal family, or to the nobility, or to the ruling class: they are the names of ordinary citizens and many of them date back to the beginning of the 4th and the end of the 5th c. B.C. Therefore, as Prof. M. Andronikos points out, we have "epigraphic evidence... that at the end of the 5th c. B.C., the Macedonians who lived in the first capital of the Macedonian kingdom [in Aeges]... had Greek names"
· Macedonians had the same language, as all other Greeks
· Macedonians had the same religion, as all other Greeks
· Macedonians used the same architecture, as all other Greeks
· Macedonians served the same arts, as all other Greeks
· Macedonians used the same names, as all other Greeks
· Macedonians had the same traditions, as all other Greeks
· Macedonians had the same myths, as all other Greeks
· Macedonians had the same heroes, as all other Greeks
· Macedonians had the same rituals, as all other Greeks
· Macedonians had the same customs, as all other Greeks
· Macedonians were Greeks.
Macedonian King Alexander I, lover of Arts and friend of poet Pindar, participated in the 80th Olympiad of 460 BCE. He competed in the "Stadion" field event and was placed close second to the first runner. His participation marked not only the beginning of the involvement of Macedonians in the Olympics, but it also constituted the foundation of future Macedonian interaction with the other Greeks and, furthermore, had very far reaching effects on the future of Hellenism.
Macedonians, who participated in the Olympics at Olympia, were as follows:
· King Alexander I, in the 80th Olympics, in 460 BCE. He run the "Stadion" and was placed very close second.
· King Arhelaos Perdikas, competed in the 93rd Olympics, in 408 BCE and won at Delphi the race of the four-horse chariot.
· King Philip II was an Olympic champion three times. In the 106th Olympics, in 356 BCE, he won the race, riding his horse. In the 107th Olympics, in 352 BCE, he won the four-horse chariot race. In the 108th Olympics, in 348 BCE, he was the winner of the two colt chariot.
· Cliton run the Stadion in the 113rd Olympics, in 328 BCE.
· Damasias from Amphipolis won in the Stadion in the 115th Olympics, in 320 BCE.
· Lampos from Philippi, was proclaimed a winner in the four-horse chariot race in the 119th Olympics, in 304 BCE.
· Antigonos won in the Stadion race, in the 122nd Olympics, in 292 BCE and in the 123rd Olympics in 288 BCE.
· Seleucos won in the field-sports competition in the 128th Olympics in 268 BCE.
· During the 128th Olympics, in 268 BCE and in the 129th Olympics, in 264 BCE, a woman from Macedonia won the competition. Pausanias mentions that: "…it is said that the race of the two-colt chariot was won by a woman, named Velestihi from the seashores of Macedonia".
Three ancient Theaters were discovered in Macedonia; one is at Dion, dating back to the 5th century BCE; the second is at Vergina (Aegai) – 4th century BCE and the third at Philippi. Ancient plays used to be performed in these Theaters. At the Dion Theater, Euripides’ Bachae and Arhelaos were introduced for the first time. Some experts believe that Iphigeneia in Aulis was presented there. The theme of the play Arhelaos is associated with the migration of the Argive Timenidis, Prince of Macedonia and founder of the Royal House of Aegai. These tragedies, played in these Theaters, were written in the Greek language, since they were intended for Greek audience, the Macedonians.
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Take a serious look at these Slavs who consider themselves as "ethnic Macedonians" and how they are the direct descendants of Alexander the Great. These
are mythological comments that sprang from the fertile imagination of a few misguided souls. According to the "Macedonist fringe",
these indigenous Macedonians, maintained their separate identity and language throughout the Hellenistic and Roman period, survived the ebb of the Byzantine empire and the establishment of the Bulgarian kingdom, did not intermingle with the Slavonic and later Bulgarian settlers and retained their "identification" as the pure, indigenous and "ethnic" Macedonians to this very day.
To support such notions, they try desperately to prove that the ancient Macedonians were not Hellenic and they did not speak a Greek dialect but a different language. Unfortunately for them, there is not shred of evidence for a separate language. If the Macedonians spoke anything else than a variety of Greek, not a single word survived in thousands of inscriptions in hundreds of cities that the
Macedonians build and ruled from the Balkans to Afganistan. There is no evidence of anything non-Hellenic in the Macedonian culture, art, religion, architecture and so on. If anything, the Macedonian state and the successor states fall within the full continuum of Greek history and culture and followed the same path of Hellenistic evolution. Nor can anyone prove anything from the antagonism of Macedonia and other southern Greek states. Any Greek dominant power always generated coalitions determined to fight "for liberty". Civic liberty was always a highly priced commodity in ancient Greece. Wars
against Macedon, led either by Athens or Sparta were less bloody and less lengthy than similar wars against the supremacy of Sparta, Thebes or Athens.
In Roman times, there is hardly any evidence of differentiation and if anything, the organization of the provinces of Achaea and Macedonia were identical -as leagues of cities- and unlike anything else in the Roman world. Both places as well as the rest of the Hellenized world retained the same culture and art and they all developed by the late
principate a Roman civic identity, that encapsulated both Greek and Roman traditions. In Macedonia, the modern border delineated approximately the Latin speaking from the Greek speaking population of the Balkans. There is absolutely no evidence of any other linguistic element and if these "ethnic Macedonians" had survived, they were not perceptible to any contemporary writer, nor did they live any monuments or inscriptions witnessing their existence.
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In response to John Bull, eeh... ScepticMax:
Apart from your (twice) expressed concern about the British taxpayer, and your "humorous" remark about mud wrestling, do you have something to contribute to the ongoing debate? Just wondering, if you are too busy reading the Telegraph and voting for the best British Prime Minister (let me guess, Mrs Thatcher?), it doesn't matter.
OK, fellow-Balkans, I'll be back tomorrow to participate in our wonderful altercation...
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To skoukou:
The answer to your question is in the post No 250
To macedonian77
I've heard (and you are a proof of that) that ethnic Macedonians who have been assimilized into Greeks are the hardest defenders today of the Greeks claim that Macedonia is Greek and only Greek. You seem to be afraid that if your Macedonian relatives come to Greece they will ask a share of your grand fathers property.
Why dont the Greek governement allow these people to visit Greece.
I have been in Thessaloniki recently and you can see just by the look who have Macedonian origine and who are Greeks. No need for DNA analysis. I bet that you do not look like a typical Greek and you might have wondered why.
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Dear friend
First of all I'm sorry for the mistakes because English it is not my native language.
You can discover the true by your own self.
Check the British Historical Books saying about the European Civilization.
Ancient coins prove that the Greek side says the true
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What "Greek Macedonia"?! It is non-sense. It is only part of Macedonia, stealed by greeks after Balkan War 1913. The so called "Northern Greece Macedonians" are nothing more than heirs of invaders from western Turkey. They, the colonists, loomed, killed, stealed the properties of the local population and expeled hundrets of thousend of them twice in 1919/22 and 1945/49. And that's why they, greeks, are scared now - must return that is not their. But it is worth bilions of $....
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You talk so much about the history, but you cannot clarify a simple thing. Why Macedonian is actually Bulgarian? Why you speak a Slavic language if you are not Slavs? Why you did not retain the language of your ancient ancestors (if you are Macedonians?)
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Well I see the Skopian propaganda goes on vacation in Great Britain...
First of all, I am Greek and like most of the Greeks I am not satisfied with our government's handling on this issue. But politics is something separate to religion or even history as I have noticed.
My name is Fillipos, which is first found in ancient Macedonia. Is anyone in Skopia or FYROM (NOONE in Greece calls it "Fire'em") named as Fillipos (Father of Alexander the great) or Alexandros (Alexander the great) or Olympia (mother of Alexander the great)?
Aren't all these Greek names?
Take a look at the archaeological findings. Greek words and letters EVERYWHERE! Macedons were as hostile to Greek as the Spartans or the Thebes were! "City-states" and "divided to kingdoms" best suits for the ancient history of the land we all know now as Greece.
I will not refer to the evidents that proof Macedonia was Hellenistic. This is for historians and archaeologists.
The name issue is critical for Greece, for the reason that is based on falsification of history, and even worst, it is the base of the Skopian imperialism which claims that Greece occupies part of their land!
There is no "Macedonian minority" in Greece, but there is Greek minority in FYROM especially living in the town of Monastiri (Bitola). Why don't you take a journal to this place?
Skopians want to unite their mixed population under a strong name and the fact that they came 1000 years after Alexander's empire to a part (35%) of the ancient Macedonia, is what they needed to find a strong name for their country.
I could post many links with abusive material, from pictures of Skopians obeying the Nazi to support them to "take back" the rest of "Macedonia" (the "Greek part" as shown on map) and even their current prime minister paying a tribute to this idea.
70 years ago their country was named Vardarska, 20 years ago Yugoslavia and now they are acting like been "proud Macedonians".
Which civilized man, knowing history basics, can really take them seriously without saying that they are just a cheap "Replica of Macedonia"?
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SunnyNestos 08:21 if you know history you have to recognize that this kind of incidents you describe (killings, steals etc) is the outcome of a war. Every war has the same frightful outcome.
It is true that a big part of the Greek population of North Greece are actually immigrants who migrate there because of the genocide the greek population faced in the minor asia in early 20th century.
"Macedonias" has the right to call their country as they want. But they also have obligation to recognize their slavic history and not try to steal the history of their neighborhoods.
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Macedonians never were BULGARS,
but Bulgarians Aadopted the Macedonian LANGUAGE,SCRIPT ect....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatarstan
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Dear Mark,
I am a Greek who spent more than 15 years of my life in multicultural London. I think I have taught myself that respecting others is the key to quality of life for all.
However, I feel your article has not taken into account all the facts, maybe because we Greeks are less noisy than our northern neighbours.
The name Macedonia is an ancient name, not one devised in the 19th century. Thousands of artifacts and archaelogical sites have been found over the last 100 years, all in Greek writing. Not one has been found in any slavic language.
I am afraid that if our northern neighbours insist in trying to steal our history, Greek public opinion will stop being so calm and become hostile, like the Skopians are. In that case no compromise will be ever be possible and our neighbours will soon go back to be called Vardarska, as they we called 60 years ago.
Thank you.
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hi-ball (277) @ 22 Apr 2008,
I'm glad that you appreciate humour. I do know that comedy - and tragedy - were invented by the ancient Greeks, or was it the Macedonians? -- Doh! Don't go there... it will generate another 250 quarrelsome comments...
And BTW, you'll no doubt have noted that this learned - if not Byzantine - debate is taking place on the BBC website - a site that as a taxpayer (and an enforced contributer to the BBC Licence Fee [tax]) I pay for. I can therefore say what the Hades I like.
Do you also pay the BBC licence fee or are you a (very welcome, BTW) guest?
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First of all, I'm a Spaniard who lived in Greece for almost 3 years and speak Greek. I've got very good memories living in that country.
However, there's a point about Greece which I coudn't come to terms: its extreme nationalism.
In this sense, there are certain subjects which are taboo in Greece, not only its Slav Macedonian minority.
They ignore other minorities in the country, like Catholics in the Cyclades or Muslims in Westerns Thrace.
Greeks wouldn't talk either about Turkey in a non-passionate way.
Greece is therefore for them just one: one flag, one language and one religion, which it is incompatible with globalisation.
I found impossible there to have rational talks about minorities inside the country.
I just consider that the tragic history of the Balkans made Greeks so sensitive about any other national minority.
However, I think this thought must change in our increasingly integrating Europe. Frontiers among our States are permeable: For example, Spain shares with France the territory for two othe peoples: Catalans and Basques.
Also Galicians (Northwest Spain) are very closed linguistically with Portugal in the South.
Let's overcome then all nation state prejudices and fears, and let's make a Continent for everybody, including of course the national minorities.
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We accept that these people have lived in our region for over 1000 years.Their political leaders will tell you that they are Slavs and have nothing to do with ancient Macedonian history yet why don't you all ask them to accept their Slavic heritage and call themselves Slav Macedonians.Ask them to look at you in the eyes and tell you they are not related to the ancient Macedonians.They will never admit they are,now this is their fallacy as they really believe they are descendants of them and thaey really dream of a supposed united Macedonia.Pls go here and see the documentary about this issue it might help
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWIKDhhTvnU
We as Greek want to help them they as irredentists do not.
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I agree with you Betuli, let's make not only the europe a united continent but also the world a safe and peaceful planet for every human being.
I am not a fanatic and I recognize the right of Macedonians to have the name they want. But it is difficult to accept a different history than the one that the facts demonstrate.
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Why do so many people want to prove to the rest of the world this is the Balkans? Both sides do have the same amount of right to call themselves Macedonians.
We Greeks need to realize that since the people up there have been nurtured with the macedonian identity for so long, they just cannot give it up now.
On the other hand, they must come to terms with the fact that Greeks had already used this name before as a geographical indicator and many of them are just as proud to be Macedonians.
Is the word Macedonia Greek? Yes. It means Land of the tall people. Dorian Makos= Ionian mikos=length.
Did the Macedonians participate in the Olympics in ancient times? Yes. Alexander the first(not the great) for the first time in the 5th century. Was the greek culture spread with Macedonians? Yes, not the slavic.
Are they Bulgarians, Serbs, Croats? No. Macedonians is al they know.Of slavic decent , but macedonians.
Let us find a decent way out of this. Neither of us will live on our own, want it or not we are neighbours. Let us stop showing all this enmity on the net and instead put ourselves in eachother?s shoes.
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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in the blog, but Mr Mardell certainly didn't talk about it: When Great Britain joined the European Union France would only let them do so under the condition that they change their official name to the United Kingdom-so that their name does not conflict with the French region of Brittany. So why shouldn't the Greeks do the same.
Further, I think it is in no way the Greeks that are being childish or silly. Why insist on a name that has little to do with your own cultural and ethnic history and indeed your geography? Besides, naming their international airport after Alexander the Great was not a very diplomatic move by FYROM either.
I think it is understandable that Greeks all over Greece and in the actual Macedonia are enraged by this- how would you feel if Ireland called itself Britain (after all it is part of the British isles) and insisted that it participated in the UN and competed at the Olympics under that name?
So there you have enough reasons to dismiss the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia even without considering the dangers of Macedonian nationalist ambition.
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Betuli:
There's no doubt you have never been to Greece for 3 years except if you are a spy! I am 30 years old and I have only heard once or twice about some hundreds claiming to be ethnically "Macedonians" in Greece of course the language they claim to be Macedonian has nothing to do with ancient Macedonian which was Greek with idiotisms! By the way, they have taken part in national elections some years ago! Isn't this democratic??
I really doubt that you're from Spain! How is the weather in FYROM (maybe??) today and why are Greeks in Bitola not allowed to speak Greek? Of course I could not forget the trial of a Greek in FYROM's court because he shouted in Skopia that he is Greek!!!
Greece respects all international conditions and does not ignore any minority described in them.
I LIVE IN THRACE! Muslims here are recognized as a Muslim minority, they have their temples and go to minority elementary schools, they are even allowed to study in any the university they want to while other Greeks have to give exams for studying in universities!
Of course they are free and they do speak their language wherever and whenever they want! I have many muslim friends and "hate" is an unfamiliar word in this land!
Greeks are very peaceful and patient but if FYROM does not stop this propaganda they will not be kind for long enough!
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To betuli:
The reason my friend Greeks do not want to talk about Catholics or Muslim minorities or so called Slav Macedonian minorities is simple. These were never major issues or problems and the people co-existed with the rest of Greeks for many years but in the last few decades a lot of stirring up is taking place so that imperialistic powers such of those of the US take advantage of situations. The Balkan region is rich of resources and a strategic point for the transfer of oil and gas. Who do you think would benefit for a split up of all countries in that region, Greece, Turkey, Albania, Bulgaria, FYROM?
None of these just the nice American companies that would come over to "protect" all of us. You are talking about abuse of human rights of all these people by Greeks. I have never seen evidence of abuse of a minority except specific cases which can happen anywhere. Why dont we want to talk about it? Because Greeks don't have racism in their culture, it is against everything we believe so it is infuriating to hear such claims. On the other hand speaking about the specific problem with FYROM I am sure you wouldn't have a problem the Basques becoming an independent country and splitting away from Spain, would you?
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In reaction to other comments I have to add this: All would be a lot simpler if Europe was one country. What is the UK, France, Germany or Italy compared to the US, China, India and Russia? Absolutely meaningless! (in the long run anyway) However, if you unite all these countries, they have a population larger than that of the US and a far stronger economy. Sooner or later even good old counter-productive Britain will have to realise that it's either that or becoming an American colony.
(Maybe we could call this new European country the Holy Roman/British Empire of the Russian Nation, just to avoid controversy.)
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I just came across a Greek joke on the subject: The alternative flag of Macedonia
Instead of the yellow sun on red they have a golden arch and it reads McDonia...
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To ScepticMax:
I am not sure what you are trying to say really except that British taxpayers are paying for this forum and the rest of us shouldn't use it. Well first of all I am not sure how much it costs to sustain a forum that promotes dialogue between different people instead of wars but it surely isn't as much as the cost of one chair from Terminal 5 that I have also paid. You see not everyone in this country gets benefits to sit at home and do nothing. Some of us do work very hard, never claimed any benefits and will never even think of asking them. Generalizing is not such a nice thing is it?
By the way how much does it cost, I can send you a cheque.
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"I agree with you Betuli, let's make not only the europe a united continent but also the world a safe and peaceful planet for every human being.
I am not a fanatic and I recognize the right of Macedonians to have the name they want. But it is difficult to accept a different history than the one that the facts demonstrate. "
i think that this is the point of all this...
Nobody is wondering why all these years there is no let's say " Balkan alliance" .. ??? Think about it ..
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I understand that there is quite some confusion regarding the name dispute between Greece and the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM)... In order to understand the defence, deeper knowledge of history is necessary. There are three important historical eras one needs to study in order to get a better picture of the current problems between the two neighbours.
Starting from antiquity, we have the first historical difference regarding the origin and ethnic conscience of the Ancient Macedonians. From the side of FYROM scholars, historians and politicians have expressed different theories in order to support their claims that they are somehow related to Alexander the Great and his MACEDONIANS, who we can all agree that THEY were the ORIGINAL Macedonians.
The core of all Slavomacedonian theories is that Ancient Macedonians were distinct from the Hellenes. A nation unrelated to the Greeks of Athens or Sparta, or Southern Italy of the coast of Asia Minor. A nation speaking a different language, worshiping different Gods, having different traditions and so on… Beginning from this statement, Slavomacedonians related themselves directly or indirectly to Ancient Macedonians. Some go as far as to claim that the Ancient Macedonians were Slavs, or that modern Slavomacedonians are a mix of what remained of the Ancient Macedonians in the 6th and 7th century and the Slavs who descended to the Balkans around that time.
However, if we go to the original sources, from contemporary historians to modern excavation and archaeological research, there is absolutely no doubt that such claims are wrong and false. To be more precise, Ancient Macedonians spoke a Hellenic dialect (belonging to the Doric or Aeolic family), and of course wrote exclusively in Greek! All archaeological findings in the area of the Kingdom of Ancient Macedonia (which includes Modern Greek Macedonia and only the South-western province of Pelagonia in FYROM) already from the 7th century B.C. are written EXCLUSIVELY in Greek. Their royal house claimed descent from the hero of the Greek Mythology: Hercules, and, therefore, relation to the royal families of Sparta and Argos. Furthermore, the Macedonians worshiped the same religion with the other Greeks: the twelve Gods of mount Olympus (which was actually in Macedonia), they shared the same traditions, festivals, arts and architecture with the Greeks of Southern Greece, Southern Italy, or Asia Minor, and from the 5th century B.C. on the Macedonians participated in the Olympic Games, in which only Hellenic people were allowed at the time. The Macedonians had Greek names with Greek etymology, such as Alexandros, Philippos, Archelaos, Kassandros, Buchephalas or Thessaloniki. Finally, Alexander the Great, himself, spread the Greek language and culture to the world he conquered and thus the historical era from Alexander’s conquest to the Roman times is known as HELLENISTIC, meaning GREEK.
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MACEDONIA the clip that shocked Greece
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh6ZV2qUGjk
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@betuli
Basques can tell us another story about spanish "extreme nationalism".
Btw, by your examples you also set the tone.
The Catholics in Cyclades are a "minority"? Yes, a religious one. There are also Protestants (evangelicals etc.) in Greece.
So, what's your point? They're (ethnic) Greeks you know.
You didn't see anyone knowing of the muslim minority in Thrace?
Heaven's sake, who were the Greeks you were