Power to the parish
It has been described to me as "a terrifying leap in the dark". Buried within the arcane text of the Localism Bill [667KB PDF] is a change which would effectively hand over hundreds of millions of pounds from English local authorities to rural parish councils and new ward-based councils in urban areas. Instead of being limited to maintaining the war memorial, civic clock or public conveniences, parishes and wards would suddenly be given real power backed up by real money.
Some see the change as a real commitment to localism, others as a recipe for disaster. If it goes ahead as planned, it may well amount to the biggest change to grass-roots politics in England since universal suffrage.
The parish council has its origins in the ancient Saxon and Norman villages of feudal England. Since 1894, when they were recognised in statute, grass-roots politics has been conducted in draughty English village halls. But for almost as long the parish council has been ridiculed as a refuge for the do-gooder, the self-serving and the strange.
But now neighbourhoods are to be given a "meaningful proportion" of what's called the Community Infrastructure Levy (CIL) to spend on their local area. Sources at the Department for Communities and Local Government estimate that CIL is worth hundreds of millions of pounds a year and parish/ward councils could get "up to 50%" of that.
Decentralisation Minister Greg Clark told the BBC today:
"They'll get tens of thousands, sometimes even hundreds of thousands of pounds a year coming into their communities for them to spend on a community centre, play facilities for children, perhaps to refurbish some of the local roads and local facilities under their direct control - very locally."
Currently, if a local authority gives permission for a private development it demands a Community Infrastructure Levy in return. So, say Tesco wants to build a new superstore, they might well have to agree to fund some capital project like a school or a new traffic system as well as handing over a cash lump sum before they get the green light. Under the government's plans, local people living near the development would get a sizeable chunk of that levy.
As well as money, parishes and wards will have a lot more influence. They will be encouraged to devise a neighbourhood plan to determine what development is allowed in their community subject to a referendum.
They might take over the running of some council services - parks, post offices or ponds. And local authorities will be required to consult the parish/ward representatives on new housing schemes which affect their neighbourhood.
There would be an expectation that if a local authority benefits from the New Homes Bonus (central government agrees to match council tax from new homes for six years) some of that money should be earmarked for the community.
Giving power to the people has a popular ring to it. But what power and to which people? There are some who are concerned that grass-roots localism might translate as dangerous amateurism.
The details are yet to be thrashed out but the government appears committed to pumping new life into the parish and ward. In the end it comes down to how much we trust local people to use their new powers wisely and well.
Update 0914, Tuesday 14 December: Some correspondents seem convinced that the committee portrayed in the Vicar of Dibley clip I used on my TV news reports on this story last night is not a parish council but a parochial church council. I am happy to put their minds at rest. The opening episode of the series sees the character David Horton calling "this meeting of Dibley Parish Council" to order and he is described on the programme's website as '"Chairman of the Parish Council". The fact that the vicar sits on the (fictional) committee does not exclude the council from discussing matters beyond the church. If viewers felt the portrayal was inaccurate or unfair, I suggest their grievance is with the Vicar of Dibley and not me.
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Worth a try, surely? The actual community having a say in how the money is spent? A welcome change from these decisions being made by the faceless bean-counters at council level.
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This equates to we wash our hands of our civic responcabilitys towards communites.
Why are we even bothering with this government? They have droped everything they are not sure of and the things they think they have an a idea on are outdated by about 30 years.
Will we see parish lobbying?
what if ther is no one within an area to use funding will it be moved to other areas.?
Far to random. to implement. effectivly. to many chances for replication of services. to much inexperiance.
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Lime Candy .. The actual community having a say in how the money is spent?
You would think so......
I can assure you its not the case.
having worked with the councils for many years as a community leader all you will get is lies and delays.
the only things the money will be spent on is services the councils still want. a bit will be put aside for ' consultations ' at which point you will get 2 or 3 choices.
as for housing development who has the legal skills to manage community space per new house built and enforce the funding of this by the builders? Build 50 houses the green/recreational space needs to be paid for and implemented. In all the regeneration(HMRI) we have been involved with this has never happened no new space is made within developments except for maybe a new bench in the park..
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This sounds good on paper. It makes for good sound bite -"Local people decide how local services are run"
But stop and think for a moment - can you imagine all the local libraries, swimming pools etc being run by a group of people who think that the characters on Coronation Street are REAL PEOPLE!!!!!!
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It's all starting to feel like a mega mix of 'Vicar of Dibley' v 'Dad's Army' with a smattering of the WRVS, WI and Boy Scouts with a few retired 'Tory' majors sorting it out - very much has its roots in Conservative wards don't you think, and is all going to be terribly amateurish taking it away from professional councils. Same for these free schools, for affulent Tory areas - there are about 30+ different types of funded schools, can't we just have a belief to deliver well educated children though academic and vocational schools/training - simplification and enjoy economies of scale and efficiency not yet another local system with the vicar driving the bus to the church to pub that is also the supermarket, school, day care centre, post office... oh for the day politicans are replaced by technocrats and we have a 20 year plan not short term electioneering by millionaires such as Cameroon.
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Re the point "And local authorities will be required to consult the parish/ward representatives on new housing schemes which affect their neighbourhood."
The level of mis-information and ignorance around Parish and Local Authority relationships never ceases to amaze me. Local Authorities, particularly in dealing with Planning matters/consultations and Community Strategy consultations are 'required by Statute or Regulation' to consult directly with Parish/Ward Councils, not only in their LA area but also in adjoining Local authority Areas! And they do.
Check out all LA's "Statements of Community Involvement" that are required under the (soon to be binned) Local Development Framework system (Planning system that is).
The biggest problems I have had in working over the last 25+ years for Local Authorities, when dealing with Parish Councils and Community Groups has been in finding Parishes and groups with the time, enthusiasm, members and capacity to undertake not only full consultations but all the duties and responsibilities they already have or could have. Where is the professional help for these groups going to come from? CAB has had funding drastically reduced, Planning Aid (free planning advice) has had all its funding cut and is faced with closure by March. Most rural Community Support Agencies are seeing massive cuts as well. Without resourcing, both financially and with people, I struggle to see how with even the best will in the world Parishes /Community Groups and the 'Third sector' will be able to cope with and undertake the sort of things the Government is envisaging.?
My fear is that this is simply a further Cut by any other name, and a method of shifting the blame for the impact of reduced service provision further down to Local communities themselves and further from Central Govt.
Grant Schapps stated recently that "Whether in a village, town or city, it is local people who best know the housing challenges their community faces. "
On what evidence does he base this beyond Daily Mail mob mentality?
I am both a local and a professional and given the disparate people from all walks of life who live in my community I would say that the complete opposite applies.
How does my 70 year old retired neighbour, childless and never coming into much contact with anyone below the age of 40+, not particularly IT literate and with fairly robust reactionary views have any idea about the housing needs of young locals (hoodies to him, to be avoided at all costs or so he has been told by most of the media he views/reads!) or even young families?
Yet he is one of the few the men (and/or woman) who have time and resources available to help determine Local Neighbourhood Policies and Plans. Not a good recipe for inclusion, understanding or equality!
Similarly, as younger people and families have been priced out of the market more and more villages are simply 'retirement dorms' thereby re-inforcing the already changed social structure. All attempts to push many of these communities to agreeing to accommodate affordable housing for young people has fallen on deaf ears and the call has often been "We need more bungalows and sheltered housing" with some limited support for Family housing. Surely this will simply make matters worse?
And finally, regardless of CIL, Council Tax additions, if Communities are not willing to accommodate more housing then the Borough/District/County Councils will not have the replacement funding to maintain service levels. With increased elderly villages needing higher levels of services as they get older, where are these going to come from. The Charitable sector can only take up so much of the shortfall. The vicious spiral downwards of quality and quantity of services will continue and localism will only be able to apply limited sticking plaster over a rapidly worsening and gangenous wound!
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Sounds to me like another excellent example of this Government opening its mouth before putting its brain in gear. Then again, perhaps it hasn't actually got a brain!
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Mike D the councils do many consultations with the public usually several miles away from the area in question!!
BTW excellent post!!!
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On the 6 o'clock news on BBC television tonight 14 Dec the report illustrated PCCs by comic reference to the programme Vicar of Dibley. The PCC in that show was a Parochial Church Council not a Parish Council of elected officials. In my opinion the report just shows how metrocentric the BEEB is that it can't even get this right. We country bumpkins have been supporting that thing called society for a long time now with little or no financial backing.
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how long does this take the short delay is now 18 mins long
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Great news. For us in small rural communities this gives some hope that some of OUR money might just be spend on our community, instead of being handled by faceless bureaucracy in metro-land.
This country is far too city-centric and whilst the guardianistas may hate this idea, I'd rather a new park bench or community centre than £k's being spend on the cities latest LGBT initiative or whatever.
Bring it on!
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Mark
As a parish councillor I cringed at your six o'clock news report confusing us with the Vicar of Dibley and reinforcing a popular myth. This does a disservice to civil parish councils and parochial church councils across the land; quite separate bodies, which do excellent and unpaid work in their own separate ways. I hope you will correct this in later reports.
Many colleagues share my apprehension at the potential scale of powers and services that might be devolved to parish councils, especially if this takes the form of budget driven abdication from higher tiers of government, who just expect parish councils as a last resort to pick up the tab for important local services like graveyard maintenance or public conveniences. As low budget organisations, typically less than £1 per household per week, parish councils have very limited scope to raise the precept or village rates to cover the additional cost of maintaining threatened local services. Also, as others here have commented, parish councils generally lack the commercial expertise and management resources to source new services economically and efficiently.
What we do welcome from the localism proposals is the opportunity to have local views represented far more strongly in decisions, especially around planning and highways issues. It is very frustrating to consult widely to develop a reasonable consensus within our community, only to have this brushed aside or overturned by someone in County Hall or London. This happens time after time, and some greater accountability would be well received.
Come and see for yourself how a Parish Council works.
Richard Doran
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There seems be a fashion for policy based on fantasy here.
The fantasy that local people have the time, inclination and ability to run things professionally. I can assume you that the local infrastructure near me run independently of local government has massive issues.
Local government has been debilitated by 30 years of centralist control, started under Thatcher who hated the GLC and Sheffield making independent decisions, and continued under Labour who equally hated the idea of Tory Councils undermining their rule.
Local Government needs fixing, but things like planning control were brought in because of the problems that were created without it. Putting control in local communities is a recipe for local disharmony. I'd much rather that some solid effort was put into fixing local authorities rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Local authorities haven't generally had the strength to resist inappropriate development by big business, all it will take is one judicial review of a neighbourhood committee decision, where the large company financing a test case will run rings around local groups and any resistance to inappropriate development will be removed. The Government will still continue to believe that rules are in place in spite of the evidence (Eric Pickle believes that the memo issued on garden grabbing will make a difference which shows how out of touch he is with reality) so local communities will be defenceless in the face of developers onslaughts.
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The standard of Parish councils up and down the country varies and for the most part politics doesn't come into it. This is a recepe for disaster certainly. Looking at the dissputes arising in breaches of code of practice, most are disputes in Parish councils. Of greater concern is that the Coalition government is set to abolish the standards committees so there will no longer be a process through which these can be resolved. I expect it will not be long before the police get involved in allegations of corrupt practices.
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Question: How many 'professional' politicians began their careers on Parish councils ?
I would guess a fair percentage of them. So why are parish councils viewed as amateurish ?
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12. At 7:43pm on 13 Dec 2010, DD wrote:
...Also, as others here have commented, parish councils generally lack the commercial expertise and management resources to source new services economically and efficiently.
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As with the plan for doctors to take control of NHS budgets, I am sure that the parish council spending will end up going through private enabling companies that will try and win contracts to run local services. After all, Serco and their ilk need to find new customers what with central government as well as county councils contracting less to them.
I am sure the companies that are really on the ball will already have the brochures in preparation ready to send to your parish council.
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And how will we choose which of the people to actually manage the services? After all you can't have Committees of hundreds or even thousands of people deciding how to run things.
I have a suggestion. Why not make a list of everyone who lives in the area? Once every year they get to elect the people who run the services. If the area is so big that you are worried that having everyone from one area would be unrepresentative, then you could divide the area up into sections.
Of course it would help if we all used the same name for these sections, elected bodies and elected people across the country to save confusion as people move from area to area. Why not call the areas people are elected to represent 'wards'; we could call the bodies they are elected to 'councils' and those people elected 'Councillors'?
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Caught between a rock and a hard place. Between Insane Bureaucracy and Nimbyism. Whilst some of the Localism Bill is positive (ownership of community assets, etc), the impact on Planning is pretty scary. Have you ever known a local community to embrace any form of new development? Especially one that is a bit different or which presents challenges, but which is necessary. Giving local communities control over what development happens in their area just means that the planning process will freeze because nobody really wants change, especially where they can see it.
I have supported a number of sustainable and self-build housing projects over the years, many a little before their time.The current planning process is hard enough to negotiate and its often left to the Planning Inspectors to rule wisely on the issue according to the law. The problem lies in that development outside nominated areas in Local Development Frameworks is very difficult so projects are forced to take place in built-up areas where land prices are restrictively high and where, even then, planning is not assured. Restricting development in these areas further by allowing communities to decide on the fate of an application, according to a strict community plan, would see most of these type of projects go up in flames.
Which communities are realistically going to call for sustainable or low-impact housing in their areas? Which are going to welcome innovative environmentally-friendly development? Who is going to say that they want a community wind turbine or a community farmholding or an environmental technology centre?
Pioneering projects are rarely welcomed at first, and are never foreseen by whole communities, and yet this is exactly what is needed to make strong, resilient communities able to thrive in changing times. If future development is restricted to community plans based on an uninformed view of need and a reliance on status quo then we will stagnate.
Having worked around local communities for years, I have learnt through experience that:
a) The further down the chain of governance you go, the more reactionary councillors often become. The worst, and most terrified of change, are usually the Parish Councillors. These are often, also, the least informed and most conservative (a sweeping generalisation I admit).
b) Everybody wants interesting and important developments to happen, but none of them want them near them.
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Anybody who thinks this a good idea should go along to their next Parish council meeting then ask themselves do I really want these people in charge of any of these things being suggested. If it's anything like mine I can tell you it will be an infatic NO! This is a recipe for disaster pure and simple.
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I am a Parish Councillor for a small Lincolnshire village. We have very good relationships with our local District Councillors, although of course we do not always agree with the DC decisions.
We look after our burial grounds and grass areas around the village, give grants to local charitable organisations and represent our electors as best we can. We comment on planning applications and lots of requests from DC and CC.
Our precept has remainded the same for 3 years (well at least as long as I have been a councillor and will remain the same for next year).
Do we need powers to fill in pot holes in our roads, to take over powers from the DC for all the sorts of things which are being suggested: NO!
Finally we are a PC not a PCC! Our PCC looks after the Church we look after the village as best we can (as amatuers but with a lot of experience and knowing most of the villagers), we don't want to be profesionals.
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I am a Town Clerk for a medium sized market town in Norfolk. I am a professionally qualified Clerk running a professional, responsive 'Quality Parish' Council with a current budget of £500,000, ten staff and 13 elected Councillors. We already provide many services that could be delivered by higher tier authorities such as a Cemetery, sports facilities, parks, play equipment, weekly and farmer's markets amongst many other services. As do many of my colleagues across the country. We are a profession with a nationally recognised profeessional body and the majority of us either holding or working towards professional qualifications.
We respond in great detail to a multitude of consultations...but...
We are fed up with the roughshod treatment from higher tier authorities telling us what is best for our town, leaving us with a complete nightmare of problems and issues that they continue to ignore. The localism bill will give us the chance to control what happens in our town in a way which will benefit the town in the long term and not just to satisfy developers or as a tick box exercise. No more housing developments with poor quality design, confusing road layouts, inadequate parking; no more mixing of housing and industrial developments; no more developments that don't contribute to infrastructure in a meaningful way (resolving traffic congestion, expanding the High School and medical centre, providing better than adequate leisure facilities etc etc); no more betting shops and estate agents taking up prime retail space in our dying town centre; no more car park charge increases to fund other car parks in the district.
We welcome the opportunity to take on the delivery of local services for local people, locally accountable. Yes it will be a challenge, yes we need to build capacity, yes we need the resources to deliver, yes we need to look at new ways of working too (like in partnership with our neighbouring smaller councils with less capacity and with community groups in the town - much of the latter which we are already doing in various ways), yes we need time to investigate the options. But with vastly smaller overheads, we have the opportunity to deliver some services far more economically than these big bureaucratic County and District Councils. If we can prove that we can deliver the services with their financial support more cheaply than they can, then we would be doing our communities a disservice not to at least consider it. After all, if you don't ask for money you won't get it. And many higher tier authorities seem to be missing the point - Eric Pickles wants them to transfer the service with the money. It's called double devolution.
Smaller parishes without the current resources to do so could look to work with their neighbouring parishes or their nearest town council to help them deliver local services.
There is no doubt that there is a massive sea change in the way Local Government and town and parish councils work but this is our chance to stand up and be counted - at long, long last.
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A middle class nimbys charter. Yet another policy that will reduce much-needed house building.
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re: posting #6 MikeD
As an on and off parish councillor over quite some years, I agree.
I view these developments with concern. It would be also be particularly unfortunate if party politics intruded at this level. At the higher tiers I believe the cabinet system coupled with party politics has diminished local democracy.
From my limited experience I don't believe that parish councillors are corrupt, but I do believe they are to a degree a self sustaining group of well intentioned local people that are not representative of the community.
Parish councils at present have very limited powers, and their structure reflects this. I simply do not believe the members or minimal staff (how many have a qualified Parish Clerk?) are capable of taking on greater responsibilities at present.
It is extraordinarily difficult to interest people in the Parish Council. It is common for councils to have uncontested elections because of the lack of interest in standing.
If we shift responsibilities to the parish council, that will be good, but only if the skills and resources are also available to discharge those responsibilities. This is not going to happen just on the backs of well intentioned volunteers.
Finally, there has been pressure for some time to devolve responsibilities to Parish Councils. The chief reason appears to be because Parish Councils are not subject to capping, so represent an underexploited source of revenue for local government as a whole.
Am I being cynical?
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4 to 9.9 % cuts across councils... For my ward which is one of the most disavantaged in england this is not good. Especialy as we are about to be overshadowed by Wirral waters, which is going to need massive infrastructure. Not to mention 15 to 20 years of extra housing and public services to cater for the 1000's of builders and workers that will move in to Wirral, while this while be good for the regeneration of Birkenhead I greatly fear as with the HMRI funding we will be overlooked yet again. I wouldn't mind but we have won awards for the work we do but its never enough to attract the regeneration needed.
Winners and loosers in all these new policys. The council is already to tied up in our community dealing with a lot of the current staff preparing for the community hand over in the SAR (strategic asset review)
Some of the council workers will move but many key skills will be lost in the transistion. Skills that will not be replaced by volunters.
this policy will cut real jobs as the locals take over and lay all the blame for failiure on community groups and local parish leaders.
"sorry for the spelling 4th reinstall this month :)"
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Basically, annilate and starve local services and amenities of cash then provide an opening for the likes of Donald Trump to build golf courses or any measly builder to get their way by way of filling a few potholes in roads or painting a local social club, donating to meals on wheels or whatever.
ITS NOT POWER TO THE PARISH, ITS POWER TO THOSE WITH WADS WHO WANT TO BUILD OR DO WHATEVER.
Parish councils were fine in the good good old days, when parishes were teeny weeny little villages but now, all that will happen is that small groups of self-centred self-importance people on a self righteous mission will take control.
Its FAR FAR from power to the people, of anything, its FACTUALLY just power to a few DIFFERENT people.
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id actually go the opposite way.
a local councillor told me a couple of years ago - "Councillors today can do very little, we spend our time asking questions of what the civil servants are doing, the same civil servants that serve regardless of which political party are in power!"
when i pointed out that this process is not the democratic process at local level the public think they are voting for, the councillor just shrugged their shoulders.
then we have a national government, of what ever flavour, who want to implement the policies they are elected to do.
some councils get stuck in and actually try to change things to match the policies of a ruling government, where as other councils - more so once opposition parties to the government increase their voting base - obstruct and oppose changes, that nationally the majority have voted to be implemented.
each time the public are left hanging without any conviction politicians at either local or national level, which breeds apathy.
if the government of the day - when voted in - were allocated control over local and county councils, policies could be introduced and vast amounts of our taxes could be saved.
civil servants at all levels should be accountable, the fact that they are pulling the strings when nobody voted them in or out, is wrong and damaging the country.
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When will the BBC stop misleading the public by saying that 'The Vicar of Dibly' shows a Parish Council in action. It is not a Parish Council it is a Parochial Church Council which is totally different from a Parish Council. The main problem is that staff at the BBC are all London based and London does not have Parish Councils only Parochial Church Councils. PLEASE STOP BROADCASTING INCORRECT INFORMATION.
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I've also just seen the BBC 'news item' on Parish Councils with the inevitable Dibley PCC parody and total ignorance of Parish Council activities.
If this is the best that BBC can do there isn't much future for it as a national broadcaster.
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21. At 9:42pm on 13 Dec 2010, Deborah.
As an elected Parish Councillor, I couldn't agree more.
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Well liverpool just got 8.9 cut as we are over the water and services are heavely tied I expect Wirral to get the same cut 8.9....Which meens Egremont will get 90% cuts.. or at lest thats how its always worked before....
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Handing power and money to local worthies on the parish council? Just how many people vote for let alone know who their County, District or Parish Councillors are. Labour, Liberal and Tory worthies, right-wing zelots, Green crackpots and self-servers. Give them our money to do as they see fit? No thanks
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Has training of journalists completely ended at the BBC?
CHURCH Council - definition of?
PARISH Council - definition of?
LOCAL Council - definition of?
DISTRICT Council - definition of?
For goodness sake, it's not rocket science is it?
A Vicar of Dibley sketch on the main early evening news bulletin to illustrate a major piece of government policy!!!!
I ask again, why is Mark Thompson worth six times the salary of the Prime Minister?
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A bill to tie up local authorities with pressure groups and the local Tory squirearchy reducing us to the state we were in in the 18th century. Only Cameron's reactionary, fossilised Bullingdon club fraternity could see this as progress. When the monarchy regains the Crown Estates and with tiny 'parish' councils run by the C of E Tory axis, democracy will revert to the 1790s - a new politics - bah humbug!
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As an ex Parish Councillor I was appalled at the BBC 6pm News item on Parish Councils this evening(13th Dec) where once again the BBC further compounded the stigma brought about by the 'Vicar of Dibley' series, inferring that Parish Councils are run by a community of bungling buffoons. Not only was that most humerous series miscast as a Parish Council, and not a Parochial Parish or Church Council as normally organised around the local Clergy, but your news item merely served to use that example to ridicule the efforts of thousands of volunteers (and I should add usually elected ones) who as Councillors do their utmost to the improve local communities they serve. They do this with very meagre precepts compared to the massive budgets of their larger sister District, Unitary and County Councils with whom they have to equally subscribe to overbearing standards and budget restrictions.
The 'localism' initiative and a promise of better funding in my opinion can only help serve smaller communities further by perhaps encouraging more individuals to work as unpaid volunteers if they can see their efforts can be made more achievable than they have been in years past. It is time the BBC educated themselves by perhaps visiting real Parishes to see just what can be achieved with localism as I am sure the National Association of Local Councils can probably confirm if you contact them [Personal details removed by Moderator] or any of the countywide associations to which many Parish Councils network themselves.
Mark Thompson's article merely panders to the wider sceptism of those who are quick to criticise and complain of the so called landed gentry put in place by the few who actually bothered to use their democratic right. If the French can make localism work then why the blazes can't we, but oh no that would be federalism I suppose or maybe returning too much to our Norman roots!
With respect
Malcolm Munro (ex Cllr) now relocated to another Dorset village!
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Interesting to see the areas hit hardest are some of the most deprived areas in Britain,high unemployment,poverty,antisocial behavior,drug abuse and so on. I lived in one of towns mentioned for 15 years up until 2003,when I decided I'd had enough of coping with antisocial behavior and petty crime and moved out. One story of municipal spending was to build large family homes for problem families. Within the space of 18 months I watched a brand new modern council house near me be destroyed by a violently criminal group of drug abusers and alchoholics,parties every night,front garden turned into a scrapyard and so on. Windows were smashed,graffiti daubed,doors pulled off hinges. When they were finally evicted they must have cost the local ratepayers easily 100K in one year,and drove their neighbours and the local police up the wall. I do sometimes think that even with the best intentions,councillors are very deluded about the wisdom of their spending decisions and ratepayers have to pick up the bills for these mistakes. Maybe these cuts will make some of the councillors think harder about where money can be spent more effectively,and that councils do not exist for them to spend on pet projects of dubious benefit,however well intentioned,with ratepayers money.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
If you turn this on its head the Government are admitting our democracy doesn't work, so how is giving finances to a 'different' pair of gloves going to make any difference at all? I say 'giving' because money is not raised locally and equally through any form of taxation.
Given the Coalition's commitment to take those with incomes of less than £10k out of taxation, and review our electoral machinery, then how come this bill has got priority over those other changes? Seems the Coalition, not for the first time, are putting cart ahead of horses.
If our democracy doesn't work then it is hardly the fault of Parish Councils whose roots are firmly established from the role of the Parish Church but representing only one in three people on the electoral rolls. Not a great move towards democracy then, unless you are a freak democracy, like a Coalition perhaps.
I think the pickles may be pickling themselves, AGAIN.
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#35 Lee Brown does the anecdotal.
I have an anecdote too.
I bought and lived in a council estate flat for some years. In the same block was a ‘real villain’ (in police parlance) and yet, he and his family were decidedly respectable. His four sons, all teenagers, were respectful, polite and intelligent.
For a while I was plagued by a gang for a short while because I lived on the ground floor and the space adjacent to my flat made a good football practice area. My pleas with these louts were met by obscenity, threats of violence, and actual assaults. The police, council authorities and local MP, were useless. Step in Mr Real Villain. He sorted the problem in a few days and I didn’t have to ask how. He and his family became really good friends.
The youths who had been a part of a nightmare would cross onto the other side of the street when they saw me out alone and that is what I call being effective. My Mr Real Villain and his family were one smart unit.
Would Mr Real Villain have been found on a local Parish Council?
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On the surface, the notion that control of certain budgets are delegated to the lowest level of electoral representation - the parish council - seems superficially attractive. Yet closer examination reveals something of a flaw, I believe, in the core reasoning behind this idea.
As the one travels up the levels of representative government in the UK - from district council to county council to region, country and state, ever more controls are evident in the way monies are allocated and spent. And whilst this inevitably leads to greater bureacracy and hence inertia, one is at least assured that funds are not just sprayed around like a muck spreader let loose in a field - to throw its bounty wherever the tractor and wind might take it.
Checks and balances are in place to restrain the wild imaginings that might grip ones elected representative, with options documented and prioritised, cost benefit analyses carried out, and all with the intention of ensuring our taxes are not frittered away. Yet even then, some projects are approved that generate screaming headlines that accuse politicians of folly.
The CIL has the propensity to generate significant sums of money, as measured by most ordinary citizens - including those who normally occupy parish council positions - to the extent that one has to wonder what skills and support will be available to our local representatives to enable them to spend this money wisely, and avoid the hairbrained schemes of the local great and good.
As an example the parish council, as portrayed in the Vicar of Dibley, may have appeared entirely dysfunctional, but is not that far off the mark in reality. One can just imagine the chairman, his/her sweaty hands on the pass book to an account holding hundreds of thousands of pounds, deciding to erect a statue to some long dead relative and predecessor of the post as confirmation of his/her local status.
If one thinks this is far fetched, then one need only consider the fate of a similar scheme carried out in Japan during the early 90's, with the intention of kick-starting local economies after the asset bubble of the 80's had burst. The thinking went that if local people had control of their own funds, and could dedicate expenditure to local needs, then the local economy would be invigorated and a sense of local pride and involvement would be fostered. The reality was that money just disappeared down the drain in local vanity projects that had no long term benefit. Taken across the nation, the sums involved were truly staggering.
The reality, as is always the case in these instances, is that the few with the loudest voice and the greatest clout get to decide what is best for everybody else - usually those with too much money and too much time on their hands - whilst the rest of us get on with running our busy lives 24/7, with little time or appetite to spend on local politics and posturing. This then leaves us with parish elections as the one way we, the locals, can exert some sort of control over how our community is managed. Too little, too late, and by then the money and its potential for good will have gone.
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Aleap backwards in the dard mnore like. Our Parish Council is not even elected but benefits from local worthies being drafted onto it.
Only if there is to be true representation by voting made manadatoiry for all will this work.
As ever Government deals with the symptoms rather than causes. When will there be clear voting reform in this country rather than tinkering at the edges. Politicians again proving themselves inept and out of touch - sickening.
If our parish council cannot even manage the precept they get now what hope with more money? None.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Has anyone noticed the big contradiction pushed by Mr Pickles. On the one hand he says that Local Authorities must amalgamate services with their neighbours e.g planning, as due to the current fiscal climate individual local councils cannot afford it to go alone, on the other he wants local services to be run by small bodies only representing a handful of people.
So, we need economies of scale to cope with the cuts at the same time he is promoting the creation of thousands of minute institutions with no economies whatsoever.
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I dare say there are many Parish Councils who take their current responsibilities seriously and who would, probably, be very successful in wielding the new power. However, I suspect that there are just as many purely amateur Councils who are woefully incapable of dealing with this level of commitment.
So can we expect to see the local Lord or Lady taking over control of the Parish Council, for it's own good and to the benefit of the whole Parish obviously, and dictating where the money is to be spent? Or will MPs be getting themselves (or an accomplice) a seat on these Parish Councils.
Sounds like a recipe for pure chaos. I understood that the original concept of central government was to step back from localised interests that steer money into smaller and smaller issues (or deeper pockets) and to operate an overview. Isn't it supposed to be government by majority (though democracy itself doesn't seem too prevalent these days) rather than minority? I guess these days it's government by monied interest rather than social need.
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It was depressing to see in your TV report on this the outdated stereotype of the Dibley parsish council being wheeled out yet again. I've served on two parish councils and have come into contact with several others and I don't recognise that image. I can't deny that there are a few nutters on parish councils, as in every other branch of government up to and including parliament, but the majority of parish councillors I've known have been in it to make a difference in their communities. Most have been involved in many other ways as well (school governors, charity volunteers etc) and many have been highly qualified and from a wide range of backgrounds. Surely this is what the 'big society' means, if it is to mean anything?
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One thing that Parish Councillors have to accept is that there is a major range of Parish (and Town) Councils across the country. With budgets ranging for a few £thousand to over £millon a year. In some the Vicar of Dibley Parish Council would probably be an improvement! The majority will be served by a part time clerk (and possibly shared with other councils).
There will probably not be enough nominations at election times to hold an election and not enough interest by local residents for a election to be held for casual vacancies and the council will normally co-opt interested residents instead. Parish Councillors are part time volunteers and do not even get expenses (District/Unitary and County Councillors will normally get several £thousands a year and have an army of council officers to do the actual work).
There are a number of very large prishes (Town or even City Councils) who do have several full time officers and staff to manager local services for their area but numerically these are a low number, but very important in their areas. Despite the differences in resources and capacity of parish councils, they still provide a useful local respresentation for their area and can achieve a lot.
In many cases their sole income will come from local residents (no business rates or government grants)- so without funds coming with the responsibilites ALL the cost would fall on local residents. Responsibility for running services has been offered to parish councils many times in the past, but they are often ill-equipped for all the knock on implications - pay and conditions, health and safety, management and monitoring - insurance costs and more. But directing staff to where the work needs to be done may be more efficient, although I expect there would probably be a need to do more not less and year on year cuts had already reduced the service to the minumum.
I have been a parish councillor for over 27 years and have often come across issues of the capacity of the parish council to respond to consultations, let alone being able to look ahead in a strategic way as required to respond to the localoism challenge. The ideas look good on paper and may suit a few of the larger local councils, but not the majority.
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40. At 10:14am on 14 Dec 2010, DibbySpot wrote:
Aleap backwards in the dard mnore like. Our Parish Council is not even elected but benefits from local worthies being drafted onto it.
Only if there is to be true representation by voting made manadatoiry for all will this work.
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Voting is mandatory.
Members may be co-opted if nobody comes forward for election. If a councillor resigns then the post must be advertised and if there is more than one applicant there should be an election. There should also be a full election every few years (cannot remember if it is four or five).
Perhaps your local parish council do not advertise vacancies well enough?
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The use of the Dibley image for parish councils was shameful and desperately ill-informed. I agree that the original error lies with the writers of Dibley but to re-present the error in the mainstream national news programme was unforgivable. Many parish and town councils across the country are highly professional with knowledgeable, well-trained councillors and staff. Many parish clerks have studied for qualifications including the ones we offer from the University of Gloucestershire tailored to their specific needs. They are ready and waiting with all the skills they need to take on more services at the local level. They are deeply offended by the repetition and therefore reinforcing of the Dibley myth.
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I have come a litle late to this discussion but have read throgh most of the comments and one thread that comes through is that the lowest tier of government is amateur. This is of course true but then so are those higher up the chain, the principal authority and our MP's. What distinguishes them is that they have access to professional advice which is largely denied to Town and Parish councillors, this is not to take anything away from the Clerk, in my experience the consumate professional. To take planning as an example, the principal authority will have a vast planning department which will look at all applications from a number of different points of view, yet a town councillor (as I was) commenting will have no access to any of this information. I would have been delighted to have more power but not without access to the professionals who could comment on an application in the context of the Strategic Area Plan etc. Indeed without this knowledge our comments were virtually useless.
To devolve real power perhaps we should look at other models. The one I know well is the French model and there the professionals like the planning department are State employees available to be consulted by all including the general public when they need help with planning applications. Their advice is then attached to the planning application at every level it is examined. I am sure examples of other practices can be found but all I know about is France.
Yes please devolve decision making but we need the back-up to go with it.
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This piece is not objective reporting. The vicar of Dibley was a fictional comedy programme although you have invited your audience to conclude that this is exactly what Parish Councils are like. Given that the central question you are posing is "Will Local Councils make good ( or possibly appropriate) use of the new powers they will have or will this all end in disaster, it might have been better to have had a discussion with some real representatives of the sector.
You ignore entirely all the work that in recent years has gone in to building the capacity and professionalism of Town, Parish and Community councils. You have also trivialised a serious subject and patronised the many thousands who work in this tier of local government.
The BBC may still be very proud of the Vicar of Dibley as hilarious light entertainment from the past but you can hardly also pass it off as relevant and valid news content.
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I know an ex parish councillor and she became totally disillusioned with the whole set up very quickly and resigned after a few months. She got elected to try and get things done but from what she said nobody could agree on anything and it was just an old boys club for those and such as those. I think she described it as shambolic amateurism at its worst.
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49. At 1:55pm on 14 Dec 2010, Nick Randle wrote:
This piece is not objective reporting. The vicar of Dibley was a fictional comedy
So is this :D
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I would like to complain strongly about your idiotic presentation on Parish and Town Councils on the 10 Pm news last nght.
Not only did it show your ignorance of the Local Government system but it maligned many hard working people who give up a lot of their time to run their local vilage or town, and have done so since 1894.
You made the stupid mistake first perpetrated by the Vicar of Dibley series by mixing up Parochial Church Councils and Parish Councils. The former, believe it or not run Churches,the latter run Towns and villages.
Your appearance in the collage was very appropriate,-another comedian in among the comedy team.
And if you got that wrong why should we believe anything else you try to tell us?
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Having read Mark Easton's dismissive remarks, and remarks by others, obviously triggered by his ignorance of Parish and Town councils I would like to point out some facts to him, or his research staff as follows.
Large towns such as Dunstable, Leighton Linslade, Dereham, Weston Super Mare have Town Councils effectively working under the Parish Council system.
Their Parish or Town precept may run into millions of £'s.
Villages of even 3-4000 population may precept for sums well over £100,000.
These parishes and towns usually have full-time staff and offices to run the Town and Parish affairs. Of course there are Parishes of only 100 or so residents which do not need such organisation.
One size does not fit all in dealing with Parish and Town Councils!
Parish and Town Councillors are rarely paid, and are subject to election.If there is no election due to lack of numbers, that is the fault of the apathetic public.
Any vacancies which occur are subject to any member of the public calling an election. If again there are no candidates, the Parish Council can co-opt a member.
How well a Parish Council is run is entirely in the hands of the public. You can meet your local Parish Councillor in the street and take him directly to task about Parish Council decisions, which is far easier than trying to access your MP, District or County councillor.
So some Parishes will embrace Mr Pickles initiative with open arms, others may not.
And there is still the power, unlike District and County Councils (unless Mr Pickles has stopped it) to raise as much money as you want for your Parish by council tax precept without capping being applied.
The big snag is that these freedoms could lead to politicisation of Parish Councils which would be very regrettable.
So please BBC get your facts right before produce any more plonkers like this.
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This is NOT the local community running affairs: it is a handful of local busy-bodies running affairs. No thanks.
In any event we must not fall for the tory scam. This is not some altruistic desire to give all us oiks a better life.
This is a scheme to camouflage blame when services start to collapse. If your kids have no roof on the school or your grannie is hip deep in faeces for lack of home care ... don't blame the government, blame the council.
Remember who is the government. Remember who is making the cuts.
Captain of the ship retains responsibility even when he leaves the bridge in the hands of someone else.
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Jon succinctly sums up the dichotomy in opinion here.
Some believe that problems with their local school or problems with close blood relatives should be solved by some large central government organisation.
Others believe such problems are better solved locally and by getting involved on a personal level.
Personally I believe I have a duty to my Granny which I can't pass off to some central power.
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55. At 8:35pm on 14 Dec 2010, C_Steam
Just sticking to the principles C_Steam ...
I tend to agree with you when it comes to MY granny, certainly I do have a responsibility.
But when you work with grannies in general you soon find there are an awful lot who have no younger family to care for them.
Does this government expect me to look after all the grannies locally?
How about the school roof?
To me, it all sounds like a convenient pretext for tories to do what they always do: transfer huge sums of money to their rich mates whilst deliberately making a million ordinary people unemployed. People with a billion pounds in one year income paying no tax whilst old people live in poverty after years of paying their taxes.
It was bad enough when thatcher did the same thing, but this lot must think we are all stupid. They make us unemployed, then they expect us to do our old jobs for free. I think not - at least thatcher didn't expect all the miners to volunteer to dig coal for free.
Until the tories go, I see it as every man for himself. I will not be working for free, I will be working for profit like their supporters do. If there is to be no security for my employment and no security when I get old then I need to be looking after my self.
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'But for almost as long the parish council has been ridiculed as a refuge for the do-gooder, the self-serving and the strange'.
Our parish council is efficient, professional, and hugely effective with very little revenue. They are aware of local issues. They give their time for free. They charge no expenses.
The same is true of our Parochial Church council.
The Vicar of Dibley is a comic stereotype. To use it in this way is offensive to decent, community-minded people. This uninformed and uninformative item was an example of news as entertainment.
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"...Captain of the ship retains responsibility even when he leaves the bridge in the hands of someone else." Allusion to the responsibilities of Government(s); jon112dk @ 54
..............
The passengers told the Captain to permanently leave the bridge because he kept steering the ship towards and into icebergs.
The new captain that the passengers put on the bridge not only has to steer a better course, but also has to put the ship into dry dock to repair the major damage to the integrity of the ship's hull.
The new captain's policy is to devolve the day-to-day running of the ship to his officers and stewards - but you are right, in the last analysis, the captain is still the captain until the next captain is appointed.
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#58. At 1:06pm on 15 Dec 2010, GeoffWard
========================
The very rich ship's owners made big money by doing dangerous things like sending the ship into loads of icebergs to increase their profits. The captain tried to save the ship ... but unfortunately he didn't have the guts to stand up to the rich owners - he just wasn't up to the job. The ship limped on, badly damaged.
The new captain is trying to put the passengers on the bridge.
He thinks he can make even more money for the rich owners by sacking the crew and getting the passengers to steer into the same icebergs, free of charge. He thinks that if he stays off the bridge the passengers will have to take responsibility for the next crash, not himself.
Who ever is on the bridge - the captain is the captain, and he takes responsibility.
(Personally I'm not heading for the bridge. I'm on the boat deck, constructing my own personal powerboat, ready for the next crash. If you want to run the ship free of charge for the rich owners, thats fine by me. Do what you want - it's not my ship.)
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banks want 38 million saver's to empty savings acounts and move the money to shares and hedge funds....
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Beware the removal of power from the centre.
A thousand little fiefdoms ruled for better or for worse.
The strong barons will get stronger, their walls will get higher, the private security company will clamp, hound and bludgeon the recalcitrant to the point that all 'undesireables' choose departure. Where neary a black face shows itself on the street at night - or day.
To where?
To the fiefdom next door, where the barons are feckless, money-grubbing and corrupt, where the schools 'fail' and where ASBOs and sink estates abound.
There will be much 'social movement', but not of the upward aspirational kind.
When the Government restrains and prods the fiefdoms - be very, very glad.
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RE GeoffWard58:
"The very rich ship's owners made big money .....etc" (jon112dk wrote 59)
...........
Nice reply, :)
but surely you - and the other scurvey matelots - can do more than just sleep in the lifeboats. .... "Hey, YOU, sailor. Show a leg!"
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62. At 00:53am on 16 Dec 2010, GeoffWard
Sorry, this old sea dog has watched his shipmates being put over the side by his dishonest captain.
If the captain wants the passengers to run the ship free of charge, so be it. If the rich ship owners are happy with the bumper profits, good for them. They may well change their minds when the ship goes down.
Meanwhile I think keeping well away from the bridge and building my own comfy little boat is the best bet. I have a suspicion those rich owners and the crooked captain don't have enough life boats for all of us.
As for the ship? At the end of day it's not my ship.
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In France, even the smallest communes have power ( ours has 34 people), they all employ people to cut the verges, p[lant flowers, street cleaning, tree pruning etc etc, they deal with planning and many more issues locally and have very low costs. The council tax is a third of what it is in the UK unless you live in cities.
The problems in the UK, with beaucracy in Local government, started with Local Govt Reorganisation in 1974 and a belief that big was best..quite the contrary is true. Good luck to the coalition proposals and maybe even go further!
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#6 Mike D excellent post
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Mark, Lazy again. This article refers to Parish Councils and you have shown a Parish Church. This just reinforces to the general public that Parish Councils are the same as Parochial Church Councils as shown in the Vicar of Dibley on TV. The BBC is trying to get people to believe that the local vicar is automatically a part of the Parish Council. This is NOT TRUE!
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In my view, it was wrong to choose the example of the Dibley Parish Council and seek to apply it to all Parish and Town Councils. As Clerk to a Parish Council in the north of England I found his piece on 13th December's 10 o'clock news deeply insulting to the members of my council. To imply that local councillors are buffoons not competent to exercise the powers that may be devolved to them is very wide of the mark.
Come on, Mark, get out of your comfort zone, do some research and make the distinction between real life and a TV comedy show!
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Great choice of Vicar of Dibley! Our unelected Parish Council is stuffed with non stypenadry priests from each end of the political spectrum who "co opt" on the like minded. As can be seen this results in an ineffective and unrepresenative Parish Council who live in fear of the Parish Clerk.
The most recent example Parish Council "action" on safer roads, bearing in mind speeding is the number one concern, is for people to cut back their hedges so traffic can be seen! Given such paucity of ambition and ability giving such bodies more money to flush down the communal toilet on low priority items is a disaster and complete waste of money.
Better to focus on making voting at all elections mandatory - as Belgium and Australia. Or forcing the money junkies of the public sector to use central buying bodies life Firebuy and NHS Supply rather than rely of their local procurement skills - that gets you £50,000 BMW police cars and Fire Engines that dont work.
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As both a parish and Borough councillor I am sorry to say that I do find that many parish councils are both parochial and in some cases un-re-representitive. Some parish councillors are un-elected as they as they have been co-opted rather than elected. If parish councils are to be given greater powers they need to be truly representitive and every seat but be contested. This is not as easy as it sounds, even in my excellent non political parish we often struggle to find people to come forward; The vast majority of parish councillors are very professional and diligent in their dealings but they often lack the compulsory training that borough and county councillors have to take before sitting on committees, particularly when dealing with difficult planning and licencing issues. If parish council are to take on greater responsiblility they need the appropriate level of training to match.
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I wish you'd do SOME research on this before you write articles. The Levy isn't in force anywhere yet as far as I know and Councils have to go through a lengthy consultation and examination process to put it in place. The money has to justified by figures to show exactly what the money will be used for and it will be needed for schools, roads, parks, health care facilities, police stations, etc. The Government's proposals to give away lots of this money will mean those things will not get provided. While many parish Councils will be well placed to use this windfall many will not. As a result I think this giveaway should only happen where a Parish can show it has costed plans for exactly what it wants to do and those plans are checked and monitored. However the Government is disbanding the Audit Commission who would be best placed to do this checking and monitoring. Without that rigour the potential for corruption and and plain stupidity is massive.
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All these comments about the need to build more homes: my nearest Yorkshire town has around 400 empty properties at any given time. Surely better to use what's already there than build new ones, and who better than local people to take such an issue seriously?
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44. At 11:06am on 14 Dec 2010, Darren Jones wrote:
It was depressing to see in your TV report on this the outdated stereotype of the Dibley parish council being wheeled out yet again. I've served on two parish councils and have come into contact with several others and I don't recognise that image. I can't deny that there are a few nutters on parish councils, as in every other branch of government up to and including parliament, but the majority of parish councillors I've known have been in it to make a difference in their communities. Most have been involved in many other ways as well (school governors, charity volunteers etc) and many have been highly qualified and from a wide range of backgrounds. Surely this is what the 'big society' means, if it is to mean anything?
I couldn't agree more! I, too, am an elected Parish Councillor. I'm well known by many of the residents in my village, as are my co-members. We are constrained by law to deal with matters concerning the village in a proper manner, misuse of funds could lead to prosecution of one or all of the council members.
The people of the village have the opportunity to vote us out every four years too. If some of the above posters were to educate themselves and see how parish councils really work, maybe they would show some civic pride and feel the need to work for the betterment of their parish instead of just sneering and sniping from the sidelines in their usual ill-informed way.
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Maybe a true parish council run by civic minded members of the community who live within the boundary of the parish would be a good thing. However it would require truth and honesty above all else.Only elected members who live in the Parish should be allowed to make any decisions that affect the daily routine and running of that district.No outside influence from companies or large consortium's should be allowed to have any say in building plans etc this would then be a brilliant thing for each and every parish. Our way of life would be more protected
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http://today.yougov.co.uk/politics/Brits-baffled-by-Big-Society
says it all really a big society will need a big welfare state to support all the volunteers required to run everything.
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