Are foreign students good or bad for Britain?
Immigration Minister Damian Green, faced with the tricky challenge of halving the level of UK net immigration, has - as predicted on this blog - turned his attention to the hundreds of thousands of foreign nationals who come to Britain on student visas.
What conclusion are we to draw from this? The implication appears to be that "sub-degree courses" are somehow a bit dodgy. The Daily Telegraph interpreted his comments to suggest that he was considering "limiting visas to those studying degree courses" rather than "lesser qualifications such as A-levels and even GCSEs".
I suspect this idea would not go down very well at the prime minister's alma mater, Eton College, or many of the other independent schools which currently educate 23,000 overseas students in those "lesser qualifications".
According to the Independent Schools Council (ISC), two-thirds of those foreign pupils come from outside the EU, notably Hong Kong and China.
The British Council, which is tasked with trying to attract foreign income into UK education, estimated earlier this year that international students contributed "nearly £315 million" to the independent schools sector, which would suggest that pupils requiring visas bring more than £200 million into the sector.
"In addition to the students who come here for university courses, others are attracted to the excellent English language and further education opportunities in public and private institutions, many doing so for short periods of time. Meeting the demand from overseas students brings incalculable benefit to the UK."
(Incidentally, the table the council published in their report Making it Happen [2.04MB PDF] also provides the source for the £8bn figure for the economic benefit from international students which some correspondents questioned in my previous post on this subject.)
Independent schools were expressing concern when the previous government tightened student visa controls a year ago. Oundle School near Peterborough described the impact of those new rules as "a crisis verging on a national disaster" and this afternoon the undermaster at the school, Roger Page, told me that "any system that made it more difficult for outstanding students to study in this country would be complete madness".
Mr Green realises that if he is to have any chance of keeping the promise to reduce net immigration to less than 100,000 a year he must do something more than cap the number of skilled and highly-skilled workers coming to Britain from outside the EU. Even that bit of the equation, he admits, has proved a hard sell within the coalition.
"We've announced a limit, that's been controversial. What is transparently clear from this evidence is that the limit itself isn't enough to reduce net migration to the tens of thousands." No wonder he is turning his attention to overseas students whose increasing numbers are boosting the net migration figure.
Today the Home Office published a report entitled The Migrant's Journey which had followed the progress of the 186,000 students granted visas in 2004. The press release to go with it points out without further explanation that "more than a fifth of those were still in the UK five years later".
Again, what conclusion are we to draw from the research suggesting 21% of people granted student visas in 2004 were still in the country in 2009? The implication seems to be that these migrants should have gone home. Some will no doubt jump to the conclusion from today's news coverage of this story that one in five foreign students are overstaying their welcome. The document from which the figures are drawn, however, says no such thing.
Far from suggesting it had uncovered evidence of dodgy foreign students joining an army of illegal immigrants, the report says that the figures are exactly what you would expect from law-abiding people coming and paying to study in the UK.
Indeed, the data would seem to be reassuring evidence that the student visa system is not being used as a back-door into Britain. Of the 186,000 who came to study, the report says, "very few of these students (3%) had reached settlement after five years in the UK". No evidence is produced to suggest that large numbers are hiding from the authorities.
"The minister believes these levels are unsustainable, and will say that this will be looked at as a priority" the Home Office said today. What, precisely, is "unsustainable" about this situation?
I'm 
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"Immigration Minister Damian Green, faced with the tricky challenge of halving the level of UK net immigration, has - as predicted on this blog - turned his attention to the hundreds of thousands of foreign nationals who come to Britain on student visas."
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One wonders when having failed to find enough scope to reduce the figures via this route in addition to having failed to find enough numbers in the other categories- and being unable to address the largest source (EU migrations), he will finally alight on the only hope he has to meet the goal.
That being encouraging more Brits to emigrate permanently (always assuming other countries will have them).
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So how do you explain the recent massive rises in student visas then ?
As you said "While the number of work-related visas issued in the year to June 2010 fell 14% to 161,000, student visas have risen a whopping 35% to more than 360,000"
Is it any coincidence that the numbers have gone up as the government has tightened up the work visa system ? Do you believe that all these extra 'students' have suddenly developed an interest in a British education ?
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Euro sceptics would welcome the Green diatribe!
Many 'foreign students' are school children - some of them at Eton - whilst others are studying for a wide range of qualifications, including university degrees. Some of the latter stay on to take post-graduate and research degrees. These are NOT conventional immigrants. They're profitable exports achieved by our educational institutes of every sort.
Quite a lot are students from the USA paying full fees, and from all over the commonwealth too: British Council scholarships are provided to help students who're from poor but striving families.
Moreover, we offer reciprocal studentships to citizens of EU states - and often to students from EU applicant States too - where EU financial assistance is provided under the long-standing Erasmus programmes. Our students complete reciprocal studies at the universities of other EU States. And here's the rub: the big idea is to spread good relations between universities and students across Europe!
Gosh! Not what Euro sceptics would want is it?
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Mr Easton -additionally, one of your main arguments is based around non-EU pupils studying at Independent Schools in the UK. I wasn’t aware Mr Green was including schooling up to 18 in his analysis, as most of the comments relate to higher education - degrees etc.
BUT -even if we include children at Independent schools, using your figures above there are less than 15,500 (two thirds of 23,000)
Compare this number to the more than 360,000 student visas issued (BBC figures) !! – it’s just ‘noise’ – a diversionary tactic.
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There are two sides to your question. Sending my child as a foreign student to the UK cost 2-3x more than what an education is worth eventhough she graduated from Durham and LSE. In the past, it would have been worth paying any price but anymore the value is over rated. She got a decent education but at a huge, ridiculous price that we are still paying for. As a single parent I would have climbed the highest hill and lowest valley to get my child educated but schools take advantage of parental angst. The real question should be is higher education worth its value anymore? That's debatable eventhough I probably would've done the same thing all over again.
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Yet again, another example of illogical government stupidity. If employers were heavily fined for employing illegal workers then Britain's immigration problem would be a mute point. But do they do that? No. That would be too sensible. Brits should sue their own government for their idiotic policies. That's the only thing they seem to understand but then they'd just continue to pay off the justice system in their favor.
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Damien Green wants the best and brightest of international students to come and study in the UK. In order to attract them UK has to be best otherwise the talented students will have multiple offers from many countries. Many times they have full funding including full tution fee and living expenses paid for their study. This is specially true for PhD in science and engineering. If UK universities do not offer them comparable deal then they will simply go where ever they have best offer. In addition to these, rheotric by coalition government will repel them from the UK. This is very much true for the best, talented and brightest students, who will prosper where ever they are be it USA, india, china or UK. So at the end they will not suffer but UK will in long term. Mediocre will still prefer to come to the UK as they can not compete with the best and UK is the best place for them.
Given the situation here, no wonder many companies are outsourcing to low cost destination, which not only offer less price but quality professionals, who may be educated in the UK or USA.
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Manoj - I'm sure the vast majority of people can see the benefits to the UK from genuine students - the concern is that there are people abusing student visas to bypass immigration controls.
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Interesting topic. However yet again the writers seem to be reading from different hymn sheets! They are coming into the debate from different biased views. Right I will add my bit! We see Independent Schools written about giving the idea that they are such as Eton and Oundle yet the schools that most of these students go to are English language schools, there are many in London, and they are independent!
As such they are there to provide a profit for those who run them, how much goes into taxes! Who knows? They do provide workers, mainly in catering and cleaning though. This work might go to EU nationals who I believe are free to come here and work but is there a time limited? back to the non EU students, from my own knowledge many do stay on after they finish their initial course, take other courses or stay illegally! These are the ones the government should take steps against, fines for their employers as someone wrote! The last government introduced the points system but this has brought an increase in Student visas I feel because agents know the ropes and make the right applications and lend money to the would be students so that they overcome the income/saving barrier. Of course this borrowed money has to be paid back at an interest and these economic students shall we call them work pay back the loans and continual living here. By the way the staff who are supposed to check the visa forms are again in it for profi. It is not run by our civil servants. in fact our representatives numbers abroad have been cut down. This goes against genuine students. To cut immigration is difficult when we have the "Human rights legislation" brought in by the last goverment. This must be tackle and improved to stop illegal immigrants settling in this vastly over crowded country.
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Dear Mr Easton
See
http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefingPapers
and see 'What is the problem' (May 2010 - pdf document).
To quote from the Migration Watch Briefing Paper:-
"Clearly some migrants bring economic benefit to the UK but, taken as a whole, what they add to production is counter balanced by their addition to the population. The only major inquiry ever conducted in the UK was carried out by the Economic Affairs Committee of the House of Lords in 2007/08. In April 2008 they reported that "We have found no evidence for the argument, made by the government, business and many others, that net immigration - immigration minus emigration - generates significant economic benefits for the existing UK population." As regards the contribution of migrants to the Exchequer, they concluded that "The overall fiscal impact of immigration is likely to be small, though this masks significant variations across different immigrant groups." See http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldselect/ldeconaf/82/8202.htm
............................
Do you really know better than the House of Lords, Mr Easton?
In your previous 'Foreign students boost immigration figures' you state (as you are proclaimed by the BBC as being an expert on this matter) ... that foreign students are worth £8bn to the British economy ... but you have not substantiated this figure.
Clearly there are costs and benefits of immigration ... if 500,000 immigrants earn on average £30,0000 pa net of tax ... I make that £15bn pa that is not going to British workers and however much of that leaving the country and UK money supply to be sent overseas.
If 5 million immigrants earn or receive in salary or benefits say £20,000 pa net of tax ... I make that to be £100Bn that is not going to British workers and however much of that is also leaving the country and UK money supply, to be sent overseas.
Can you see how easy it is to chuck figures around, Mr Easton, in the debate on immigration.
There has never been and independent and comprehensive and unbiased survey/review/ carried on the costs/benefits of UK immigration ... and if giving 10-15 million vulnerable British people a well deserved real British job and re-structuring of the UK economy around them in order to do so ... why not do it for them since, as after all ... they are British and Britain is their own country.
Can we start from the position that no one has a short medium or long term set of facts on the specific and general effect(s) of mass immigraton to the UK.
Yes ... I also know that many British people work/study overseas ... I have worked extensively overseas myself and do not need a lecture from anyone about British people working overseas (although the British overseas community is relatively small compared to the numbers coing here as immigrants).
How about education education education and training and re-training for the 'vulnerable British' instead of writing them off?
Have you thought about that Mr Easton?
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£3,571 is another estimate of the annual direct financial cost to each and every one of 56 million British people ... of having more than 5 million recent immigrants in the UK:
'taking' their/our jobs
'taking' their/our houses
'taking' their/our seats on the buses and trains
'taking' their/our place in the queue for health and other benefits
'taking' their/our pensions
cost of increased population and infrastructure, schools, colleges, etc etc
cost of crime
cost of congestion and inflation
This does not address in costs terms the social costs of mass immigration on Britain/British people
The 'British Council' have 'had their day' and 'jolly spending sprees' - its time for some 'effective surplus quango management' and hopefully their vile propaganda and misinformation will soon be permanently curtailed.
It is very easy to estimate that immigrants are taking £100bn? £200? or even 3 or 4 hundred billion pounds a year ... not from the British government ... but from the British people themselves as is dragging down our living standards for the silent majority.
These are the facts ... I'm talking about hundreds of billions of real British pounds a year being taken off real British people ... not hypotheticals, Mr Easton
BTW, I got a British GCSE maths student to work out the figures for me ... I suppose that will not be good enough for many
Do the Maths please Mr Easton ... it is quite a revelation when one considers that immigrants also do a great deal of tax dodging and drug/people smuggling etc.
Its called the 'big picture' Mr Easton
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this might be bold...but its the truth.
many many students from the subcontinet have arrived in the UK, with the pretense of signing up for courses via the student visa, when in the UK not even bothered with a single lecture, got a job, even travelled back to their country of origin, brought back a partner and then been successful in getting a british passport. its absolutely the truth and i can give you examples within the local community who have done this.
there is no problem with genuine students who can then return to their country. its those that have been abusing the system that need to be netted in.
no doubt all the subcontinente immigrants will start mouthing off again...ususal nonsense about "how much the brits need them...boring".
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The government wants cheap, exploitable labour. This happens in America too. Good British actors are paid less than American ones. Indian IT and engineers are paid a fraction of what Americans would accept. This is the result of a globalist agenda. Destroy every institution, bankrupt the country. Expand government. Take over the country. Control the money flows. Its a power grab on a grand scale.
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clamdip lobster claws wrote:
"The government wants cheap, exploitable labour. This happens in America too. Good British actors are paid less than American ones."
Well, to employ foreigners in America you need to show a need. In the case of actors there is obviously no shortage of American actors but Hollywood often doesn't care about giving jobs to its own citizens and hires foreigners anyway. Obviously there is some loophole that wrongly allows Hollywood to get away with this.
Those "British actors" shouldn't be hired in the first place so if they are earning less then they have nothing to complain about. No one is forcing them to take the jobs and they obviously have no problem taking work away from an American so I have no sympathy for them.
"Indian IT and engineers are paid a fraction of what Americans would accept. This is the result of a globalist agenda."
If you are talking about in India then no. It's the result of the differences in cost of living between India and America. Again, no one is being forced to take those jobs.
"Destroy every institution, bankrupt the country. Expand government. Take over the country. Control the money flows. Its a power grab on a grand scale."
America is trying to take over India?
OK, if you say so. :)
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Mark Eastons editorializing is exactly the sort of agitative BBC bias the Conservatives complain about. Prior to him it was Evan Davies running with the neo-liberal, globalist baton. When will BBC editors accept that their seemingly implacable opposition to public opinion on the subject of mass immigration is the only thing thats "unsustainable"?
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@14
every one in an IT office knows that the subcontinent workers accepts a lower salary then his british IT worker counterpart.
dont muddy the waters.
its cheap labour in the UK
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I thought maybe it would help if you also hear my comments as I came to this country as a student and then decided to stay.
When I came to here as a student my aim was to improve my English as a language and have a postgraduate degree and then go back to my country as most of my friends did. I paid more than £2000 for the language schools in my first year and paid more than £8000 for the MSc course and while I was studying I also worked in a part time job to cover my food and accommodation expenses. I paid my taxes all the time and did everything legally.
What stopped me going back to my country is I met my wife here and since she is also from a different country we thought it would be best to live in an English speaking country as this is the language we communicate. I found a full-time job and got my work permit via highly skilled migrant programme and now working in a company which pays me half compared to english people working in the same position.
I had to pay £600 to be able to get married in this country because we needed to get an approval from Home Office at that time. For each visa application also we had to pay at least £500.
I can here people saying "You can go to your own country if you are not happy" but this is nothing to do with my happiness. What I want to point out is that "don't think that all the immigrants are living in a palace here and spending your taxes, getting all the benefits". As an immigrant I pay all the taxes you pay -without getting a benefit for my child- and work harder than any english collegue but paid less money, and have to pay additional money for my immigration expenses.
You might find it hard to understand why I still live in this country but the simple answer is security. I love my family and want them to live in a secure environment, as most of you would want same for your families. If you are a father to a child then you should know that the parenthood does not have any nationality and feels same to all.
My contribution to british economy is not different than any of british person; I pay mortgage, shop from tesco and love english football, etc..
I don't want to write very long and I don't know if my comments will change any minds about immigration or not but I would be very pleased if you don't think we are all bad people and taking your country down, but try to think there are also good immigrants out there.
Regards
M
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Mark, I am glad you have questioned Green's orthodoxy that a lot of students are in essence milking the system by showing the large number of decent GCSE/A-level students, particularly from China/HK, whom my old school massively catered for
But, as your stats show - these only account for about 15,000 visas, Green mentions half of all student visas, which is 360,000 - so you haven't accounted for at least 150,000, unless I've misread, be nice for a follow up on this
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Murat 17. At 09:40am on 07 Sep 2010:
Thanks for the very interesting post Murat.
I don’t think anyone would be concerned about your situation as you’ve done everything ‘by the book’ – you arrived as a graduate, did genuine courses and , when you decided you wanted to remain in the UK, you went through the HSMP. There are arguments to be had around how many people should be allowed to settle permanently in the UK, but that’s a different debate for another time – and if we’re allowing ANY settlement it should be highly skilled law abiding English-speaking graduates.
What concerns most people I think is that there appear to be a number of applicants using the student visa as a way to bypass immigration controls – registering with some bogus ‘’language’ or ‘business’ school (usually a few rooms above a shop) then disappearing into the ‘black economy’ – or even joining a course at a real University and never turning up. None of the figures presented reassure me that this is only a minor problem.
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Firstly, I will say up front that I am a lecturer at a British Higher Education Institution. Hopefully this should head off comments that I have little knowledge about the topic discussed above.
I must congratulate Mark Easton for his analysis both of Mr Greene's comments and on the report from which much of his information was taken. I read it myself last night and highlighted the self same paragraph at the end of the report which emphasises that international students are, by far, here to study a course and then return home or go on elsewhere with their qualification from a UK institution. The vast majority do not hang around after they have finished and live here, illegally or otherwise.
Mr Greene's comments yesterday angered me for a number of reasons. Firstly, the suggestion that UK institutions do not already have a quite rigorous process in place to ensure that incoming students are 'the brightest and the best' (at least of the same standard required of British sudents) demonstrates blind ignorance of university admissions processes. The comment that not all come here to study for 3/4 years also undermines and ignores both postgraduate university qualifications - of a high standard and which DO attract foreign students - as well as the good work being done by FE colleges in bringing students in from abroad to undertake study on specific skills-related disciplines. These provide a not insignificant market that sells British education and British skills to a worldwide audience.
Secondly, his implicit (though carefully unstated) comment is that those remaining behind are lazing about living off the British state. As the report itself states, the majority of those who remain after five years are either: a) in continuing (e.g. postgraduate) education; or b) working in the UK, many of which, having spent four or five years in Bitish education, will be working for the NHS, or for related bodies.
I am also concerned by some of the comments made by those replying to Mr Evans. Yes, the numbers of those international students coming to study in the UK has risen, but then universities have been actively going to various parts of the globe to recruit students from the wider world. This is to open up British institutions, deliberately, to the international market and to allow UK institutions to compete with the major US and North America institutions with whom they are in the most direct competition.
Of perhaps greater importance, and ignored by those who see 'hordes of foreign students entering the UK' as an overall negative, is that the recruitment of international students directly facilitates the FUNDING of British undergraduate students as universities struggle to work around an increasing short-fall in funding for higher education.
The immigration issue is, obviously, one that engenders much debate, concern and at times, outright hostility. But the present government's idealogical drive to ensure that immigration numbers come down - and in doing so directly attacking British educational establishments' ability to recruit students from all parts of the world - creates only a smokescreen. By making much of an issue that is an integral part of university funding and recruitment, he threatens the ability of UK institutions to be the best in the world, and to continue to attract the best students in the world to study at our institutions.
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If you actually read the linked report it states;
"Figure 4 shows the status of migrants who entered the UK
via the study route at the end of each year until 2009. By the
end of 2004 just over 15 per cent of students had already left
the immigration system. Over half had left the system by the
end of 2006, and by the end of 2009, that is around five years
after their arrival, this proportion had risen to almost 80 per
cent.
Therefore by the end of 2009, 21 per cent of the 2004
student cohort appear to remain in the UK. The analysis
of UK Border Agency data suggests that these were split
between those who remained as students, and those
granted leave to remain for work and family reasons
(through marriage, for example). Only a small number of
those entering in 2004 as students applied for settlement."
The key sentence is this one;
"Therefore by the end of 2009, 21 per cent of the 2004
student cohort APPEAR to remain in the UK."
(my emphasis)
So how sure are we that the remaining 79% have actually LEFT the UK ?
Note how the report uses the expression "left the immigration system" rather than "left the UK"
Of course the illegal overstayers are going to fall into this larger second group, but the article seeks to reassure us by concentrating on the 21% who are still LEGALLY in the UK
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In response to number 21:
Universities have been, since the immigration reforms brought in by the last government, required to keep attendance records for ALL students who are here under student visa access. If a student misses more than 2 classes, their absence is investigated. If suitable reasons are not provided, or if they miss more classes than this, then their student visas will be revoked and they will be expected to leave the country.
For cases such as these, as well as those whose courses are finished, it is up to the Immigration department to ensure that such people are no longer resident in this country. The fault is not, however, that of universities who wish to bring international students into the country, if immigration are not able to patrol matters correctly.
Nor is it the fault of international students more generally who choose to come to this country to better their education and who come to this country as a result of the quality of education provided by our educational establishments. There will always be those who play the system and outstay their welcome, but what the report does state is that "settlement may not be the main priority for those entering the UK as students." And indeed "It would be quicker for students to gain settlement via the family route, for example by marriage to a British or other EU citizen." The vast majority of international students come to study, therefore, rather than to remain in the UK.
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In response to number 21:
Iain32 wrote “Universities have been, since the immigration reforms brought in by the last government, required to keep attendance records for ALL students who are here under student visa access. If a student misses more than 2 classes, their absence is investigated. If suitable reasons are not provided, or if they miss more classes than this, then their student visas will be revoked and they will be expected to leave the country”
OK – does this apply to ALL educational institutions, or just Universities (i.e. less than 50% of the total) Genuine question– I’ve not seen this specified. And do you think the ‘bogus’ language schools would keep accurate and honest records ??
“For cases such as these, as well as those whose courses are finished, it is up to the Immigration department to ensure that such people are no longer resident in this country. “
Agreed – and the higher the numbers the more important it becomes.
“…what the report does state is that "settlement may not be the main priority for those entering the UK as students." And indeed "It would be quicker for students to gain settlement via the family route, for example by marriage to a British or other EU citizen." The vast majority of international students come to study, therefore, rather than to remain in the UK”
How can they say this with any degree of certainty when the number of overstaying illegals is not known with any accuracy?
The increase in student visas coinciding with the tightening of the work visa rules is the sort of result one would expect to see if people were trying to enter the UK by the ‘path of least resistance’ – I find it hard to believe the rapid rise in applications is purely down to UK institutions advertising themselves more effectively overseas.
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Response to Number 23:
As far as I am aware, all HE and FE education providers who deal with students studying at their institutions on student visas must take attendance and must keep the immigration department aware of any lengthy/undue absences from courses of study.
Of course those 'bogus colleges' you refer to will not be so inclined, but you seem to massively over-estimate the number of such institutions that are in existence - and with that the number of 'students' that they then deal with - while at the same time massively under-estimating the number of legitimate HE and FE insitutions that exist in this country, all of whom are looking to expand vigorously into the international market.
There is no doubt that the number of international students has gone up. There is also, however, no doubt that the number of universities and colleges sending delegations to Africa, the Middle East and Central and East Asia has increased dramatically also in the last decade or so. Universities WANT international students to come to this country. The amount of money provided by such students is 3 times (at least) that provided by home (UK and EU) students. Why wouldn't they want large numbers of international students studying at their institutions...?
Also, let us not forget that this is not a one-way phenomenon. UK students go to study in institutions across the world. North America , Australia and New Zealand are popular student destinations, and the growth in English language teaching provision means that Scandinavia, the Netherlands, Germany and Switzerland (to name but some) are proving increasingly attractive to UK students. Australia is a case in point where British students (among others) are using their student visas to extend their stay once studies are finished and enjoy an unofficial 'gap-year' that is not covered by their student status. And Australia has one of the most stringent sets of immigration regulations in the world...
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And in case some statistics may alleviate the argument somewhat, the following website is very useful:
http://www.ukcisa.org.uk/about/statistics_he.php
For 2008/9, the number of non-EU (international) students studying at UK Higher Education Institutions (e.g. at university) was 251,310. Coupled with similar international students in Further Education (e.g. at colleges, and by this meaning recognised FE institutions of which there are hundreds across the country), which for 2006/7 (later figures not being available) numbering around 38,000, this wohld seem to account for pretty much all of the student visas granted.
If nothing else, this should emphasise the scale and number of international student participation in the UK education system, the extent to which it is of high quality (note the numbers of postgraduate students), and the numbers who pass completely through the system (e.g. they don't disappear after a year's study, never to be seen again...)
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@25 The figures you give above don't match the statement in the article that 'half the students are coming to study at below degree level'. I'm sure Mr Easton would have jumped on this if it were untrue, rather than going off on some tangent about Independent School pupils. I guess the explanation is there's some 'lag' involved as visas aren't granted each year but only at the start of the course -which would suggest a BIG leap in FE applications recently compared with HE
To answer an earlier point -Yes, the marketing of UK educational institutions has increased over the last ten years or so but student visa applications have jumped markedly in the last few years (up an incredible 35% in a year) Do you not think that this is at least worthy of further investigation? It certainly doesn’t look like ‘natural’ growth due to better marketing.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
More on bogus colleges..
One of the above posts has been pulled , presumably for having too much 'quote' in it, so I'll summarise and provide the link.
The article is from from the Telegraph last year reporting on the findings of the Home Affairs Select Committee , which concluded there could be up to 2,200 bogus colleges in existence with 'tens of thousands' of students having entered the UK on fraudulent student visas.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5871630/Tens-of-thousands-of-bogus-students-in-Britain.html
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@Iain32 and Pat Berks,
the system is absolutely being abused and there are absolutely bogus colleges. i am british born asian and personally know of a someone in the local community of subcontinent origin who came over via a bogus college, never went to the college but work instead, brought over his wife & child and now has a british passport. so did his cousins and his friends!
I acceot that whilst not every foreign student is doing this a vast majority are and something needs to be done.
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If a quarter of a million illiterate immigrants arrived in this country purely to sign on the dole, then Mark Easton would be spinning it as necessary to maintain jobs in the Civil Service.
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I think that a lot of the pro immigration lobby are either being very naive or are in denial. I have just got back to the UK after 5 years away and have been struck by the fact that nearly everyone doing a service job in London is an immigrant - a significant proportion from the Indian subcontinent.
Given the fact that work visas to unskilled migrants are supposed to be very limited, the only explication I can see for this is the huge number of overseas students in the UK. I find it very hard to believe that they are all just working to supplement their studies and like others on this forum believe that many people are using the student visa system as a way for unskilled workers to gain entry to this country.
There's certainly an argument for accepting the best and the brightest, but we do not need to import unskilled labour.
To the people in the education system with a vested interest of keeping the numbers up - I would ask them the following question. What level of population increase do you think is sustainable in the UK? We are currently running at 200 000 a year! I have just got back from 3 months in India and if I have seen the effects of over population there.
If I wasn't worried before - I am now.
Let's get out of denial and face the problem, even if it means we have to make some tough decisions. Talking about GNP or 'benefits to the economy' is very arbitrary. Not being able to get your child into school, to buy a house, or get prompt hospital treatment is not.
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I love the stuff about UK students staying on unofficially in Australia in contravention of Aussie immigration rules!! See, we're at it too! It's all the kids talk about these days... climbing into the undercarriage of a 747 at Heathrow bound for, well, Singapore first, but then onto Melbourne and a job in a Pizza shop! And then they all stay on and claim asylumn because they've got outstanding library fines back here so they'll be persecuted by Mrs Beacham if they get sent home. And then they become naturalised Aussies and send for their family. It's just hilarious!
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Mark, I have commented on your immigration blogs many times before & sadly this is another situation where perhaps not all the facts were available to you, or you chose not to present them all.
I have formerly worked as a visa officer at 2 UK posts overseas so have a very good understanding of the sad state of affairs British immigration is in & the damage that the Labour government has done to the UK with their 'open door' policy. In your blog you state that of the 186,000 students granted visas in 2004 only a small proportion reached settlement after 5 years in the UK. There is a reason for this. In 2004 student visa applicants were interviewed and thoroughly questioned on their intentions in the UK & the visa officer was given absolute discretion before deciding whether to grant a visa. In 2009 the government introduced the Tier 4 Points Based System. This changed everything. Interviews were considered no longer important and were removed. Therefore an officer had to make a decision solely based on an application form and the supporting documents presented by the applicant. All an applicant had to do was provide a letter from an educational institution showing they had been enrolled onto a course, education certificates to show previous qualifications & a bank statement to show they had funds to cover their first year's course fees and to support themselves for the first 9 months. The statement only had to show the funds had been held for a period of 24 hours, with the latest balance being within a month of the date of the application. In my experience dealing with applicants from the sub-continent, which makes up the majority of student visa applicants to the UK, false documents were routinely used. Most notably education certificates. It was quite clear to an officer when a document had been forged. However, we were required to verify it officially before being allowed to refuse a visa on this basis. However, local colleges and universities were by and large uncoperative in helping us in this process so we very often had to issue visas to applicants in the full knowledge their documents weren't genuine. Also, in terms of funds, false bank statements were a daily occurence. Similarly we had problems verifying these documents, as bank managers would often confirm a fake statement was genuine (usually as they knew the applicant or had been paid off by them). Even if bank statements were genuine, it was quite routine for an applicant to 'borrow' the required money they needed to complete their application. These funds would routinely change hands many many times & be used to support multiple applications. Quite often, unscrupulous immigration agents would loan the money after taking a fee from an applicant. Despite officers and management being well aware of this practice, there were no provisions in the Points Based System to refuse applicants on this basis. So visas were issued to people who had neither the money nor the intention to study in the UK. Also, when it was introduced, the Points Based System had no English language requirement. The result of which that applicants with very little & often no English skills whatsoever were allowed to enter the UK as 'students'. Under the old rules we could interview to assess an applicant's ability to study a course in the UK, but Labour took this vital tool away from us.
The Points Based System was tweaked slightly this year. Funds now need to be held for 28 days rather than 24 hours. This achieves nothing, as it just means a would be applicant just needs to get hold of a bank statement showing they have held the money in an account for an additional 27 days. Also, there is now a requirement for a minimum level of English language. However an applicant only needs to provide a local education certificate to prove this. Such documents are easy to obtain in the likes of India & Pakistan & can be bought for just a few pounds. The ONLY way to effectively assess an applicants English language capability is by way of an interview. We are possibly the only developed nation in the world who choose not to interview visa applicants. Not just for student visa, but for just about every category of visa we offer.
The result of the extremely lax student immigration policy introduced by the previous labour government is that hundreds of thousands of people began to flood the UK from 2009 and still continue to do so now. Only a small minority of these genuinely intend to study in the UK & leave when their course is over (or seek further studies, or in some cases undertake skilled post-study employment). The vast majority of student visa applicants, especially from the sub-continent, enter the UK for no other reason than to work here illegaly and settle for as long as they can, if not permanently. Once in the UK, a 'student' can bring over a spouse and children as dependants - allowing the spouse to work freely. In my expeirence it was common for female applicants to arrive as students in the UK, then just a few months later to invite over their spouse. It was very common for us to find out that the 'student' was pregnant and imminently about to give birth. So how could they be studying?? This paved the way for the dependant spouse to enter the UK and take up full-time employment. Once in the UK, a 'student' can apply for subsequent visa extensions at the Home Office. These are extremely easy to obtain. All an applicant has to show is that they need extra time to complete a course or even that they have simply enrolled onto a different and longer course. Once they have been in the UK for 5 years, a student-visa holder can apply for permanent settlement. This is a huge loop-hole which, if closed, would deter many people.
So I take you back to your point that of the 186,000 student visa applicants in 2004 only a small minority had sought permanent settlement after 5 years. Given the numbers of 'students' who have entered the UK since 2009, it would be interesting to review these figures in 2014 & 2015. I'm sure by then the picture will be very different.
The Points Based System as a whole and in particular Tier 4 is fundamentally broken & I applaud Damian Green for taking action addressing this. The system is so bad, that in reality the only sensible course of action in the short term would be to suspend all student visas & allow only a few to be issued to only the best applicants, going to the best universities. Only when a new system has been implemented, that offers an effective border control, would it be reasonable to allow all applicants to apply for student visas again.
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This is not rocket science. We were told by the Labour government that we (the 5th largest economy on the planet) simply don't have the skills to fill all of the UK job requirements. Which begs the question that, if we are so bad at educating and training, why do so many non-Europeans head for the UK to study ? To get into the UK ! This needs to be addressed ; as you would expect, the last government failed to get a grip on this issue and the number of people coming to the UK rose yet again.
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This is pretty simple really if you are not from the UK,you should only have a student visa if you are doing a full degree,and you are paying 100% of the cost of your education whats unfair about that ?
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No. 25 - Iain32 wrote: "For 2008/9, the number of non-EU (international) students studying at UK Higher Education Institutions (e.g. at university) was 251,310. Coupled with similar international students in Further Education (e.g. at colleges, and by this meaning recognised FE institutions of which there are hundreds across the country), which for 2006/7 (later figures not being available) numbering around 38,000, this would seem to account for pretty much all of the student visas granted."
There is a gaping flaw in this accounting by Iain. He tries to say pretty well all the non-EU migrant students in a year (251,310 in 2008/9) are working away in universities.
However students usually do three-year courses so divide that number by 3 to get the annual arrival or intake, and you get 80,000.
It is hardly surprising, as happens, that the non-state (private) colleges bring in hundreds of thousands of students for below-degree courses they could access in their home countries - they get the right to work (NINOs) once they arrive while the colleges do not need to check their attendance.
Remember it was Phil Woolas who said, after 10 years of Labour calling anyone racist who raised the issue, that he had closed 2,000 bogus colleges. That left more than a thousand that look decidedly wobbly if you peruse their websites, despite their grand names.
I propose that Mark Easton, just once, writes a blog coming from the other side of the argument.
[Don't worry he couldn't and the BBC would not tolerate it for a second.]
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My friend's hairdresser is over here from India on a student visa - apparently studying "international business studies" at a random "college" on top of a shop on Oxford street. Her husband is doing something similar. They plan to stay here and start a family. Fact is that our capital is flooded with such cases. We need a strong crack down.
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I think the British and American public are under the false presumption that Homeland Security tracks the comings and goings of visitors on visas which they don't. As far as I know there is no comprehensive system that tracks people both ways, incoming and outgoing from the country. They know when people enter but they don't track their exit as far as I know. That is why so many people leave with expired visas because their attitude is why care if they're already leaving the country. This inability of the department to do its job properly is what makes the situation so unsafe.
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Good for the greedy Universities who rake it in from them.Good for the countries of origin who benefit from our exceptional University that they cannot compete with.Bad for our Kids who cannot get in.Bad for our country which is lacking our own skilled Graduates in Science and Technology.Bad for our country as a whole because so many do not go back to where they come from.Its an easy way to bypass the system and although rightfully it has been tightened up it has not been tightened enough as wholesale abuse still takes place.So overall i would give a resounding NO NO NO to your question.
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I think when it comes to this question, it makes it silly to give a definite yes or no answer. The facts are that foreign students bring financial benefits to the British economy and do their bit to promote the British culture and trades in one way or another.
As for the universites, the government is backing off from more funding, and there are more demands from students. I don't think that rising tuition fees were mostly caused by the increase of foreign students. Without foreign students, universities would be in deeper trouble as they struggle with their finance.
Of course, benefits come with expenses and other impacts. Blaming immigration and foreign students is much easier to do than solving the real problems.
Any views that suggest getting rid of all foreign students is better for Britain demonstrate their shallow perceptions and selfishness.
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