Cry 'God for Harry, England, and Saint George!'
Is waving the Cross of St George an act of patriotism, nationalism or racism? With England flying the flag as never before, the distinction appears to have caused some confusion.
A neighbour in my street decked his house in red and white bunting with a message attached: "If you are offended, leave the country!"
I have yet to meet anyone who is offended by the flags and banners supporting the English football team, but the papers have found apparent examples of employers who have "banned" the St George's cross because, it is claimed, the ostentatious display of a national flag might upset people.
Most of these tales turn out either to be nonsense or to reflect corporate concerns about safety or branding, but the notion that some people believe showing your true colours is offensive has significant traction.
Local government minister Grant Shapps recently wrote to local councils saying that he understood that a risk-based approach to health and safety was important, but urging them "to avoid accusations of being over-zealous or spoilsports". David Cameron, of course, has decreed that the English flag should fly over No 10.
On Friday, a friend joked that he didn't realise I was a BNP supporter when he saw an England flag on my car. It was a joke but also a reminder of how our national emblem was appropriated by racists during the 1970s and '80s.
Over the last twenty years, however, the flag has gradually been regained by the moderate majority and this World Cup has seen it flown in greater abundance than I can ever recall; I was living in Scotland in 1966 but I suspect that even then the English scene was less decked than today.
So to return to my question: is the cross of St George a symbol of patriotism, nationalism or racism? We need to define our terms, a tricky task.
George Orwell had a go in his 1945 essay Notes on Nationalism:
"Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By 'patriotism' I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."
In the shadow of World War II, one can understand why Orwell saw "patriotism" as a passive force (Britain) and "nationalism" as an aggressive force (Germany), but the distinction is important.
Some academics have divided nationalism into "good" and "bad" - the laudable good nationalists wishing to maintain and support their own nation versus the bad nationalists who seek to pit their own "superior" nation against all others.
Bad nationalism is almost indistinguishable from racism, it has been argued, and I suspect that some people do worry that in flying the flag they risk being perceived as inconsiderate at best and bigoted at worst.
However, the idea of a universal international identity in which citizens across the planet celebrate their bonds has had little success in the last 200 years.
The philosopher John Stuart Mill defined nationalism as a desire to match national and political borders:
His comment is a reminder of how the concept of nation is relatively new. It is often argued that the notion of nationalism was created along with the first nation-state - usually said to be France in 1789.
Victorian essayist Walter Bagehot wrote that "nation-making" was the essential content of 19th-Century evolution, but found it hard to put his finger on what defined a nation:
Bagehot recognised that race could not identify a nation, but he was stuck on what might. The climate? Shared history? "The way in which nations change, generation after generation, is exceedingly curious", he concluded.
Joseph Stalin got closer to defining a modern nation when he said that it was a "historically evolved, stable community of language, territory, economic life and psychological make-up manifested in a community of culture". Even this does not account for the multi-lingual, multi-racial, multi-cultural, multi-faith nations that have developed as the planet has shrunk.
The World Cup is a celebration of nationhood as much as of football. Such "international" sporting competitions cement the concept of the nation-state, acting as a lightning rod for "bad" aggressive nationalism and a support for global values.
The flag is a symbol of support for a team and love for a nation. If people choose to fly it or interpret it as a symbol of English superiority or aggression, that is not the flag's fault. I shall continue to drape a large cross of St George upon my house.
I fear, though, that given England's recent history in the World Cup, a proud nation will end up saluting its sporting heroes as they "go down with all flags flying". Or is that an unpatriotic thought?
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~09~RS~)
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I'd say English people in England using the English flag are being supportive. It's the Scottish people in Scotland using the American flag who are being nationalist, and I understand the high streets are now stocking up on Algerian flags so they can keep up with demand this time.
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I am half Welsh and half Irish and am proud to fly both the Welsh and Irish flags. I do not find it at all offensive for the English flag to be flown, perhaps if enough English people re-claimed their flag from the extremists, then it's reputation would improve and nobody would be afraid of offending.
Keep flying those flags, for and from whatever country you choose. Be proud of who you are.
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I live in Boston, USA (today is actually "Flag Day") where the thought of being branded a nationalist for flying your flag is considered crazy - walking to work today I must have passed at least half a dozen stars-and-stripes, of varying sizes, which is completely normal. When I first moved here 11 years ago, a friend gave me a Union Flag (so I "wouldn't forget where I was born") so I put it up in my room - and the first Brit who saw it joked about the BNP. I'm so glad that normal people in England are finally reclaiming our country's flag from the bigots and racists - I, for one, have added a St. George's cross outside our house to all the star spangled banners in the area, at least for the next few weeks...
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The flag of St George lost its right wing and nationalist reputation two World Cups ago, when it was reclaimed as the symbol of an England which is multiracial and part of the UK. I live in Wales and we see the red dragon everywhere. If Wales had qualified for the World Cup, you can bet it would be flying from the windows of hearses. But it too is no longer a symbol of a nationalism which excludes other UK nations. That those days have largely passed is evident in the number of people who display the St George's Cross here and live to tell the tale.
I'd love to have a national symbol that represents every part of my UK nation, but I come from Northern Ireland, where all symbols are divisive. I envy you English, Scots and Welsh your national flags, so you should be proud of them and stop flag-ellating yourselves.
I'll go now.
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"a friend joked that he didn't realise I was a BNP supporter "
Your friend is quite patently an idiot.
The English flag should hang proudly from every public building alongside the Union Flag, as the Scottish, Welsh and Irish flags should in Scotland, Wales and Ireland. All three countries have plenty of pride wrapped up in both the Union Flag and their nation colours, and anyone who doesn't like it can feel free to be offended, but under no circumstances should they ever be allowed to make us ashamed of who we are.
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It is exactly this sort of idiotic navel gazing that encourages the right wingers and marginalises good patriotic people. The flag of this nation should be a source of pride and a symbol for collective identification. "Offended then leave the country" - Well quite frankly I often wish the BBC with its many biases and constant anti British stance would leave the country. At the end of the day this IS England.
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I bet the vast majority of the England flags on display at the moment are chinese imports.
What does that say about our national pride?
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Flying the flag of St George is merely indicating your support for the England football team during the world cup. In my street we are putting the flags out on matchday and then putting them away until the next match.
No doubt if Scotland and Wales had qualified they would be flying their flags as well.
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Why dont all those countries in the EU dont just adopt the EU flag. Why not have a world cup with just the 5 continents ? make for a quicker tournament. Oh really
We live in England, FACT, respect that, if you dont like it or cant live by the rules of the country, get out, just as if I lived in India or Egypt, I would have to respect their culture.
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I've always thought that the difference between patriotism, nationalism and racism is like this:
Patriotism is where you say "my country is great"
Nationalism is where you say "my country is better than others"
Racism is where you say "my people are better than others"
While there's nothing really wrong with patriotism and there's nothing really right with racism, nationalism exisits in a very subjective, gray area inbetween and has been used by more than one politician as a subtle bridge between the two.
Which may be why some people are sceptical about overt displays of patriotism, seeing that as just a step away from nationalism which itself can be just a step away from racism and thinking it is perhaps better to err on the side of caution rather than start on that slippery slope.
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I'm Scottish and have never associated the St George Cross with the far right. Simply with England. I have associated the Union Jack with the far right and Protestant bigotry on several occasions.
Maybe this is one of those debates that will bring us back to what British is.
Why can't we return to the time when being British included the Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, Caribbeans and Africans? A real extended family of nations.
When we saw those Europeans celebrate liberation in WW2 by waving the Union Jack, amongst other flags, that flag also stood for the Canadians, Australians and others. New Zealand passports were called British passports for years.
However Britishness has been misappropriated along with flag, anthem and monarch as if it is the exclusive or first use of the UK.
If anyone wants to look why there is so much debate and confusion caused about being British it has been this misappropriation by Whitehall that fails to appreciate the equality and duality of identity by making people have to choose one as their nationality to the detriment of the other.
How much more calk it was when one could feel comfortable with their nationality within the family of INTERNATIONAL British family of nations.
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There is nothing wrong with any flag waving in the air,it's when it's waved in peoples faces that's when the problems arrive.
I always consider myself British first and English second. Its old fashioned I know, but I believe in the Isle's. To many Scots, Welsh and Irish men and women have gave their lives for the freedom of Britain over the centuries for me to think otherwise. The 'Jack' first the 'George' second for me.
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Only the politically correct tendency in the UK could make the act of waving the national flag into an act of racism. I sometimes think the real threat of fascism comes from those busybodies who spend their time telling us what we are allowed to say, to think and to do.
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I agree with your comments on the flag. I think however it is peoples attitude to the 'people' who wave the flag. There is a large section of society who think that waving the St.George makes you stupid, bigoted, racists or fascists this is the reality http://bit.ly/ai6gkK
The BNP and far right have never been able to claim the St.George, they have always gone for the Union Jack. What worries me most is English councils do not fly the St.George, the Church of England rarely fly it (none of the 3 CofE churches in my area have it flying - and it is the churches flag). We still have organisations calling themselves British even when they operate only in England http://bit.ly/drfGuY and the BBC nearly always use the nationalities Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and British.
So we have a long way to go.
“Reporting the Beijing Olympics, the media, and in particular the BBC, continued to announce medal winners as Welsh, Scottish, Northern Irish and British, but not English. In its CEEFAX August 19th 2008 bulletin the BBC described Chris Hoy the triple gold medallist as ‘the Scot’. However, it described Victoria Pendleton the triumphant women’s sprint cyclist Olympic champion from Bedfordshire as ‘British’, not once as English. In the first week of the Games both BBC reporters and BBC CEEFAX described Nicole Cook who took the first gold medal for the British team as Welsh, but Rebecca Adlington who achieved two gold medals in swimming only as ‘British’, never English.’ What is the agenda for denying the identity of England and English achievers?
The presenter of a recent BBC programme called Thomas Tallis and other mediaeval English composers British when they were unequivocally English.”
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The suggestion that flying your own national flag during a sporting event is in some way offensive is just plain ridiculous. Flying the flag of the opponents of your derby football opponents is also fair play as far as I am concerned - is it offensive or racist for, say, Man City fans to display the colours of Man Utd's opponents in a cup final?
It should be all taken in good humour. Come on Slovenia!
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I am proud to fly my English flag and fly it all year round. How can supporting your country be racist?
If anyone is offended by my flag then tuff.
The Scots show intense racism by flying the flags of Englands group apponents and hide behind the "we are only playing" defence.
All they actually show is jealousy, as yet again they have failed to qualify.
I suppose i would be bitter too so we should feel sorry for them. England may get knocked out, but you need to be good enough to qualify first, and we are.
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I was watching someone (Geoff Hurst?) talking about 1966 with a film in the background and all the flags waving were Union Flags.
Certainly for Euro 96 I have pictures of my children with their cheeks adorned with the Cross of St George in front of our house with the flag hanging from the front window.
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Caroline asks...
"I bet the vast majority of the England flags on display at the moment are chinese imports.
What does that say about our national pride?
It say we are very proud of being English, and China makes a great deal of flags....what a stupid and pointless question Carol!!!!!!!!
What has that got to do with being Patriotic, I am using a chinese keyboard right now to send this...does that make me un patriotic?
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1. Miraglyth
Have a sense of humour, Herbie! It is absolutely hilarious, after Sun headlines and much pomp, that old England proves 'world beating' with only a draw. Especially when it was a donkey moment by the goalie - hee, hee! It's a great laugh. Same as it is when my brother's team loses (it's Aberdeen, and they were great in 1983?!) - they're not English. See, it's not 'racialistic' LOL. It's banter.
And England fans, good on 'em (I actually don't mind/care if England wins, it's just a hoot to hear the commentary, and the phone ins, when they don't ;-), are being normal by waving their national flag - of course they are. All other countries do. It's part of the game, as is the banter. Unless we take ourselves, and it, too seriously...like the commentators! Which Scots can't escape of course. But...you've got to laugh 8-)
Yes, I had my USA flag on my Facebook, and I'll be supporting A.B.E. - it's a bit of fun!
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The basic premis of the question is ludicrous. Why is flying the flags of Scotland, Ireland, and Wales none of the above, yet flying the flag of England is potentially all three? I now live in the USA, and practically every house in the country flies the National flag. Are they being patriotic, nationalistic, or racist? I suspect the first, since the Americans have a tendency to be ultra-patriotic, but is that such a bad thing?
Flying the Confederate Battle Flag has tended to become something of a racist expression, but some of my friends fly it because they are southern. And, believe it or not, southern does not necessarily mean "racist". Some of them are African-Americans, southern, and proud of it.
So flag-flying may be any one of the three, but don't make the bold assumption of any but the first.
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I am English, not British and certainly not European.
My country is England, and I will fly my flag if I want where I want.
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I don't have any comment on flying the English flag. But on the question of what is a nation, I think the answer is, to misquote Humpty Dumpty, "a nation is what it says it is, nothing more and nothing less". Or to put it it another way, a nation is a group of people who decide they have something in common (language, religion etc) which makes them a nation. And, of course, people can, and do, change their minds about which nation they are in.
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I think the idea that everything we do that celebrates our country has to be checked first to see if it offends anyone is barmy. Aren't atheists going to be offended by God Save The Queen? The only thing for it in our democracy is to pass a law that says that flying the flag cannot legally be a basis for an allegation of offence. Otherwise, timid town councils will continue to ban the flag and other "overt demonstrations" of patriotism since they don't have the funds to fight nuisance law suits from "offended" people.
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I attended an SNP Burns Supper last year, and the speaker spent at least 15 minutes speaking about the fine heraldry that is the Cross of St George. You should be very proud of it in England, it is indeed a splendid flag, and one which you need to reclaim, and dissociate once and for all from its dodgy BNP affiliations of the 70s. To me it should represent the best English qualities of tolerance, humour, conviviality, quick witedness, competitiveness and the joy of words. Needless to say I feel the same about the Scottish Saltire and the best Scottish qualities. I'll leave you to judge what they are.
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"Even this does not account for the multi-lingual, multi-racial, multi-cultural, multi-faith nations that have developed as the planet has shrunk."
Possibly this is because they do not work particularly well as nation states, there simply being too much diversity for cohesion to be effective, or possible. The USA is very diverse but has a strong feeling of patriotism and faith in the American way. I just feel that the UK has been divided by devolution and by the wave of immigration which has not been integrated because of the multi this and that which has been PC. Accordingly we no longer work well as a nation or as a people, which allows the type of question you are raising to be posed.
So far as the cross of St George is concerned, of course it is not insulting unless you want it to be. However, I do find the rather mind numbing tabloid frenzy that goes with it rather pathetic, but then I am not a great football fan.
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I am offended by the flags that support the English football team. I think that these are totally different to the banners that explicitly support England, e.g. GO ENGLAND AT THE WORLD CUP 2010. This is because if you don't display a banner then you can be assumed to not support football. However, if you don't display an England flag from your car/home/workplace then that implies that you 1. Aren't proud of being English, 2. Aren't English, 3. Are in some way different from English people.
This is a time of economic hardship, when BNP and other racist organisations use politics and desperate rhetoric to blame some of the hardship on others, and I think right after the world cup would be a great time to step up these campaigns. This is because a lot of people who don't normally exhibit or feel great nationalistic pride have recently become very zealous and overexcited by it so if someone used inflammatory words they'd have a wonderful and very willing audience.
I think that just as some hooligans ruin a football match for the other 50,000 fans, so can the people who incorporate too much of the St George's flag into their identity - once world cup fever leaves the mainstream they will seek like-minded individuals and therefore perpetuate high levels of nationalism into their attitudes and behaviours. It makes me sick to see the number of flags flying with no reference to football. Football shirts and watching football, that makes me happy.
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I see nothing wrong in displaying the English flag if you are English, what I do object to, is the British national anthem i.e God Save the Queen being sung at sporting events at the beginning of English games. God Save the Queen is the national anthem of Great Britain and Northern Ireland not just England. Just as Scotland has 'Flower of Scotland', England should pick a song to reflect them.
But remember Scots only support two teams, Scotland and anyone playing England!
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Mark,
I agree with you that slowly, the negatives surrounding use of our flag are eroding.
It is rather contradictory that Welsh, Ulster & Scottish flags have always been accepted, whether or not in the mind they signified that one's country was separate within, or separate from the union.
It is unthinkable that children all over Britain would be allowed to stand before the Union Flag each morning and repeat a pledge of allegiance (which starts the day in the US). How long then before your fledgling United States of Europe becomes accepted in the mind of the people, with its' own union flag? I think at that point, the cross of St George will be embraced as just identifying one region within the federation.
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Does it matter? I can't be bothered myself, but anyone who wants to display any flag at all shouldn't have to ask the state's permission.
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Sadly I have been called a racist on many occasions for flying my St George's Cross. Even on St George's Day I was asked by a woman on a bus to take my flag off my shoulders as it was offending her. When I refused she triumphantly stated that the flag was of no importance anyway as the country no longer belonged to the English and that I may as well burn it as no one wanted to see it. I do realise this is on extreme point of view but to actually have it said to me was incredibly upsetting.
I personally believe that holding true to your background and celebrating it in an honest manner. I will always have my English flag on show and I would hope that every other person feels proud enough to fly their own flags from which ever country it may be because without our history we would never be who we are today.
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There are at least half a dozen houses on my street bedecked with flags. I only moved there earlier this year and had thought it was a nice area - how wrong can you be. The slightly more expensive neighbouring roads do not have any flags - no wonder they are more expensive.
Seeing the flags on houses and cars makes me cringe and I immediately pass judgement on those displaying them.
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I was born in England, I've lived all my life in England, and I'm proud to be English! England is part of the United Kingdom and I'm proud to be a member of that too. The Union Flag flies above all others in the UK because it is a symbol of the inclusive nature of the UK, four great countries, each proud of their own heritage and together, greater than the sum of their parts. Great Britain has been a multicultural country for hundreds of years and is more so now, but I don't see anything wrong with that, all I ask is that people who come to live in this country on a permanent basis take on the mantle of what it means to be British.
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I,an English woman,living in France,have a bar on a main road, I have banners with St Georges flags on for the World Cup .....all it shows is I follow and support England,naturally so,I'm English and proud to be,regardless of the fact I currently live abraad ,I haven't lost my nationality.
The flags are getting a good response,from passing Brits on holiday,tooting their horns.Not sure what some of the French think of it all tho? ...but as far as I'm concerned its all in good humour,its sport,its a competition.Surprinsingly the two French owned bars in this village haven't got the tricolour flying ??? wonder why that is ??
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"but also a reminder of how our national emblem was appropriated by racists during the 1970s and '80s"
Only left wingers like yourself believe this nonsense
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""a friend joked that he didn't realise I was a BNP supporter "
Your friend is quite patently an idiot."
I think the key word was joke and the prize of idiocy goes to...
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If the far right captured the St George's Cross, isn't that because the liberal left disowned it in the first place? They wouldn't have - and we'd have been spared a lot of bother - if they'd listened to Orwell.
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At every World or European Cup we hear these same stories, which quite frankly are rubbish and probably started by racist idiots trying to stir up hatred and hence the "if you don't like it leave" comments.
The BNP are the BRITISH national party not the English and have nothing to do with the English flag as far as I'm concerned.
Pointless article and I'd have thought the BBC had a little more intelligence that to add fuel to these silly rumors.
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In response to the comments about Scots and American/Algerian flags, I live in the west end of Glasgow and did not see one American flag prior to the game on Saturday. The only Algerian flag i've noticed to date is in a barber shop where the owner is....Algerian!
It's a myth to say that every Scot hates England with such passion, most of us are not that bothered to be honest.
This debate concerns England and the English flag, please refrain from using Scotland as an example of nationalism or even worse racism.
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Flying English flag is perfctly fine, especially during the World Cup.
And I'm not English, not even British. Just hate it when political correctness goes too far.
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Nationalism is practiced by every country in the World, otherwise they wouldn't exist.
Only in the UK do we have debates on whether it is OK to love ones country (admittedly by the self-loathing Left).
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I actually don't fly the flag, not because I fear being perceived as racist, but because (heaven forbid) I may be mistaken for being working-class. Perish the thought.
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22. At 4:08pm on 14 Jun 2010, Jon wrote:
I am English, not British and certainly not European.
My country is England, and I will fly my flag if I want where I want.
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Not in another country you won't, not without permission, or as long as you fly the national flag of the country you are in along side yours, whatever it may be.
Flags are symbols of nation, if you stick them in the ground, you effectively claim that soil for that flag, it causes wars to start.
Jon, that kind of posturing is why the flag of St George (born in the modern city of Lod, near tel Aviv in Isreal, possibly, by the way) is what has soiled the flag of England in the past. Everybody waves their flag, they do so non threateningly, without the prevarication, without the intimidatory sense of 'I shall wave my flag, like it or else'. Nobody should care, unless you are making an issue of it.
Wave the flag with pride, enjoy the culture and heritage it represents, you can't change the past, but you can influence it's future!
For the record, it's Jack first, Saltire second for me, but I equally despise Scots who are 'anybudy but Ungland' as much as I do the BNP.
Good luck England, bring home that World Cup.
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If people wish to fly the flag of St. George then they are welcome. I do have some questions though.
Why is it that the word England appears to be printed across the flag? The Scots don't print Scotland on their St Andrew Cross so why does England have to be written on the flag? Is it a reminder to the fans as to whom they are supporting?
Why does England have a patron saint from Anatolia? Surely, St Cuthbert would be a far more suitable candidate. I blame the absentee king Richard Lionheart and his cynical use of the Crusader flag to try and unite a divided nation.
I must confess that I dislike all this hype as a lot of greedy merchants cash in on the simplicity of the natives. Whilst I dislike nationalism intensely I find all this superlative agitation by the media quite vulgar. Yes, I am a patriot, but it comes from a love of the landscape and the way it moulded my folk whether they be from Caithness or Sussex. We are the people of Britain and we cannot be defined by any flag as our story is too complex.
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Why is it that the Scots, the Irish, the Welsh, the South Africans, the Kenyans etc ad infinitum can wave their national flags and not be called racists, but when us English do it we are called racists. This is a typical politically correct double standard espoused by the left of centre groups in the UK and propogated by the media especially the BBC. We will get trashed in the world cup, as usual, but more crioss of st george waving please and to hell with the pathetic souls who will be offended.
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Is the Union Jack not a symbol of decline, loss of power and empire. Whether through shame of history or fear of impotence and failure. It is the shunning of the flag that allowed extremists to claim it as their own. Perhaps we find the reminder of past glories embarrassing.
Numerous attempts to redesign the flag later and the schism is still as profound as ever. The Nation may have reinvented itself, society redefined itself but the flag is still the same old flag.
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What's wrong about it?
Why would anybody feel offended?
{baffled}
In all, I'm glad you shook off the racist clique from your flag.
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Hairy Gnome wrote: "The Union Flag flies above all others in the UK because it is a symbol of the inclusive nature of the UK, four great countries"
Actually it only represents three of the area's previous Kingdoms.
Lesley McLean wrote: "I see nothing wrong in displaying the English flag if you are English, what I do object to, is the British national anthem i.e God Save the Queen being sung at sporting events at the beginning of English games."
I see no problems with that. Several Commonwealth countries still use it as one of their anthems. Canadsa only adopted O'Canada on 1980.
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Can i just point out that the 'nationalism' and 'patriotism' distinction seems unfair. Nationalism is a sense of belonging, take wales, scotland or ireland. Their nationality is an identity and not necessarily a negative effect. Although groups like the BNP use the negative side of both patriotism and nationalism and minorities complain i think the 'if you don't like it then leave the country' is an expression not necessary. I think most people simply walk past and see a flag, the act of defense makes it racist. In other words we shouldn't have to justify our support for england in the world cup or any other cup other than saying we are english, regardless of ethnic origin. After all i feel most other nationalities are not embarrassed as they don't feel the nee to defend. So don't feel embarrassed, don't justify flags with insensitive remarks and i think everything will be ok. After all JS Mill tells us the wonderful thing about liberty is it allows an expression.
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Being horribly old I have to make a small correction. The National Front who marched in the 1970s and early 80s always carried the Union Flag, in huge numbers if I recall. It was only after this sad bunch disbanded during the economic good years of the late 1980s that the Cross of St George began to appear as a symbol for racist groups that then morphed into the BNP. This lasted for about a decade until the Euro 96 competition which was held in England and you gradually started to see the flag being carried and waved by normal people.
In fact the Flag of St George had been on ice for a very long time with England fans usually waving the Union Jack (you only need to see film of 1966 to see this). Devolution has certainly increased English awareness, although not very much as we are still well behind our Celtic neighbours in terms of tub-thumping assertion of identity. A good thing too I suppose as nationalism is a pretty ugly thing at best...although I'm always amused by the assumption that an Englishman flying the Cross of St George must be a vicious neanderthal whilst the equivalent flying a Saltire outside his council house and shouting "Freedurm" between shifts at the local government call-centre, is a proud and noble man etc. Beats me!
The funny thing is that although I'm English and generally proud to be so, I wouldn't fly the flag on my house or car. I don't really feel the need. Overt acts of national loyalty are for the insecure! Naturally though, should England get through the pool stages, which is far from certain at present as these pesky foreigners seem to want to win (catches us out every time!!), I shall tune in and shout loudly over the high decibel droning that passes for atmosphere in this World Cup.
PS: I support England and all the teams who routinely beat Scotland. This makes me one of the few followers of the Faeroe Islands, Estonia, Puerto Rica and Malta in Somerset!
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The fact that this is even a topic to be discussed shows that you English have a massive problem with your identity.
I hope you sort it out and stop being so "polite" to everyone who is offended. It doesn't help you.
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27. At 4:13pm on 14 Jun 2010, rhodedendron wrote:
I am offended by the flags that support the English football team. I think that these are totally different to the banners that explicitly support England, e.g. GO ENGLAND AT THE WORLD CUP 2010. This is because if you don't display a banner then you can be assumed to not support football. However, if you don't display an England flag from your car/home/workplace then that implies that you 1. Aren't proud of being English, 2. Aren't English, 3. Are in some way different from English people.
This is a time of economic hardship, when BNP and other racist organisations use politics and desperate rhetoric to blame some of the hardship on others, and I think right after the world cup would be a great time to step up these campaigns. This is because a lot of people who don't normally exhibit or feel great nationalistic pride have recently become very zealous and overexcited by it so if someone used inflammatory words they'd have a wonderful and very willing audience.
I think that just as some hooligans ruin a football match for the other 50,000 fans, so can the people who incorporate too much of the St George's flag into their identity - once world cup fever leaves the mainstream they will seek like-minded individuals and therefore perpetuate high levels of nationalism into their attitudes and behaviours. It makes me sick to see the number of flags flying with no reference to football. Football shirts and watching football, that makes me happy.
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I recommend you book in for counselling sessions, you see and perceive so much that does not exist except in your imagination, which is more of a worry to me that people like you walk the streets with such paranoid reasoning.
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It's good to see people are no longer falling for the easy lie (usually regurgitated on St. George's Day) that the Cross of St. George = BNP. Back in the '70s it never even stood for the National Front. The flag of the right was and is the Union Jack.
Look at some old photos and you will see it though. Usually near the back, together with the Saltire, Red Hand of Ulster and Welsh dragon as a bit of an after thought.
Also good to see the old 'he wasn't even English' bit as well. Usually stated by someone who'll then go on to say they don't fly the flag because of it's racist connotations. I believe that's called cognitive dissonance.
As for the similar canard 'your flag's made in China'. So, I suspect, are 90% of the flags wielded by all the football fans in South Africa right now. So what?
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Well said FrankandTomsDad at 4.53.
For me it's St George's flag, Union Flag then the Saltire (for my Scottish Mum). She's been here over 50 years and understands how I feel and knows I love Scotland also. The people I'm not so sure about when they start this " ABE" (anyone but England) attack just because they haven't qualified - again.
I have a flag flying from both my bedroom windows and they will stay there until the competition is over. I LOVE football and follow a Premier league team plus England. Why shouldn't I? I make no apologies and over the years I've taken so much rubbish from people simply for flying the flag. Why? Okay you shouldn't "deface" the flag with words on it and if I had my way I'd have a massive flagpole with a HUGE flag but the garden is too small!
There is only another little flag being flown in my neighbourhood. I haven't bothered to ask why others haven't as I'm well aware who the "anti-football" neighbours are, those who grumble about the "whole month of it" without realising they have 20 other channels, could go out, shopping, the world is their oyster. Of course when there is a show of patriotism there is always moaning. The same person (and I ) flew the flags on St George's Day. Others just don't care. I feel the same when Wimbledon or the Olympics are on but just get on with it.
I live in Surrey but it always strikes me as strange that we have a Mayor who closes Regent Street for a Spanish Day, allows St Patrick parades, Chinese and Polish days etc etc but does little for his own people.
I know people harp on about it but it does seem the ONLY time we can fly the flag safely is when the World Cup is on. Funny that, knowing how low people think of football fans!!
Come on England. Whatever you do, I'm behind you!!!
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It should be celebrated that the English have rediscovered their true flag. It's very striking and should be flown all the time, not just for football. I think that Jerusalem would make a fine national anthem for England.
Many Scots dislike England and the English, and in particular the English football team. The St George's Cross makes them seethe inside, even if they can't bring themselves to admit it. Especially when they see my beautiful (foreign) wife proudly supporting England.
St George was Middle Eastern? So what! We should perhaps celebrate that too.
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Quiet obviously racist, you would have thought the people of england have forgotten what country they live in with the amount of crusader crosses hanging everywhere. Yes, believe it, this is still England.
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tacrepus wrote:
Only the politically correct tendency in the UK could make the act of waving the national flag into an act of racism.
I think you'll find that the National Front (now the BNP) made it an act of racism because every time they held a demonstration, desecrated Jewish graves, beat someone up etc they did it while covered in Union Flags.
They also made the Union Flag the centrepiece of their fashion and had a tendency to cover themselves in as many of them as possible.
Due to their actions the majority of decent people in the country started to associate the Union Flag with the National Front and other racist organisations and therefore started to distance themselves from it as they were afraid of being grouped together with that type of scum.
I have always flown the Union Flag in my garden at home and I always had one in my classroom when I was a teacher, it was quite common for people to ask if I was a member of a racist organisation when they first spotted them during the 70s and 80s as for most people that was what they associated the flag with.
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While flying the St George's flag is not racist, flying a banner underneath it saying "If you are offended, leave the country!" certainly is.
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The problem with the English flag is not the flag itself but the term "English". The concept of "The English" is a racial concept. I did not decide this to be the case, it just is. There is plenty of evidence for this fact, even from the blogs above. Examples would be comment number 31 or 15.
Non-white people who are born and raised in England tend to call themselves British and not English. They have to because the English, white people, have reserved this term "English" for themselves. This makes it problematic for the BBC when reporting on the Olympic games as comment 15 highlights.
Its strange because non-white people born and raised in Scotland tend to call themselves Scottish as well as British and Scottish people never bat an eyelid.
It is not the flag of England that needs to be reclaimed, its the concept of Englishness that needs to be opened up to become and inclusive term. Unless this can be achieved the "English flag" will always be controversial. The flag is just a symbol.
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I wish people would stop using the word 'race' when talking about a nation. Only the other night, Jonathan Ross spoke about the "Scottish race" on his show, and the media is always complaining about so-called anti-Scottish or anti-English 'racism'. Both Scotland and England are multi-racial nations, and always have been. To use the word 'race' in this context is totally inaccurate, and potentially offensive.
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"22. At 4:08pm on 14 Jun 2010, Jon wrote:
I am English, not British and certainly not European.
My country is England, and I will fly my flag if I want where I want."
I am English, British and European. I am a green (environmentally), pink (skin colour), Brown (surname), white (aka IC1), black & white (NUFC ftw) etc.
I am all of these things but above all, I'm a person, an individual. I have many flags and for the next few weeks, the one I'm flying is red and white.
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44. dazzlingpuddock
Naughty Frog!
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Mark, All and none of the above. It is fun. Why be so pompously contrived?
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32. At 4:17pm on 14 Jun 2010, Michael wrote:
There are at least half a dozen houses on my street bedecked with flags. I only moved there earlier this year and had thought it was a nice area - how wrong can you be. The slightly more expensive neighbouring roads do not have any flags - no wonder they are more expensive.
Seeing the flags on houses and cars makes me cringe and I immediately pass judgement on those displaying them.
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You very, very sad person. You must be an enforcement officer with the local council. So when you see the flags on Buckingham Palace you cringe and presume the people who live there are somehow not as good as you. I you judge a person on such flimsy grounds I truly feel sorry for you and the people you come into contact with.
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I think the reason people cringe at English nationalism is because of England's relatively recent history of imperialism and racism. Only once the UK dissolves and the Commonwealth starts to dump the royals can England finally move on and find it's post-colonial identity.
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'Actually it only represents three of the area's previous Kingdoms.' To be very pedantic, Wales was only ever a principality and has always been despised as such by the Norman Kings and their successors and so does not appear on the Union Flag or Royal Standard.
But seriously, as a non-english person living in West Yorkshire, I am very pleased to see the extraordinary blooming of the English flag. In particular, every taxi and newsagent is festooned, and most of these are owned by people of Pakistani decent. This near universal flying of the flag must surely put and end to its use by some as a symbol of anglo-saxon exclusivity.
As a person born in Scotland, I am getting increasingly ashamed at the extreme anti-english sentiments being expressed by some Scotsmen. A bit of joshing is one thing, but the pathetic vindictiveness shown by some is another.
As a Kiwi I know that if the all-whites can beat Vanuatu and Fiji, they can go on to win the cup. Especially if the meet useless teams like the USA on the way.
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We live in a multi-racial society and having an English flag certainly does not make us supporters of the BNP. All people are doing is supporting their football team. Come on England!!!
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Me?...I'm cry God for England, Harry and St George..
Drake, Nelson, Shakespeare, Wellington and Churchill,
yeah, Disraeli and Palmerston too...
If the Scots, Welsh, Irish , Uncle Tom Cobley et al dont like it if the English fly there national flag...tough...write a letter to the 'Guardian' if that makes you feel better lol!
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To Webb of Deceit
I was around during the 1970's & 80's & as my poor father & cousin bear the scars of a National Front attack, and we had to enjoy a weekend of a NF rally - the association of the English flag with the far right is no myth.
If you wish to quibble the NF used the Union Jack, but as the EDL have shown the Far Right now hold the English flag as part of their identity.
I do agree with Mark that the Cross of St. George is no longer regarded as just something for the Far Right, and indeed my children have already the flag painted on their faces. I'm glad to see it where it belongs with ALL the people of England.
Good luck to those who wish to fly it, but more importantly to the team - a very multi-racial one!
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As someone born in the mid 1980s and whose first memories of England in a major tournament were Euro '96, waving the flag of St. George in the front garden to passing cars honking their horns - at the age of nine - was simply an expression of the excitement I felt at the England national team doing so well. Resultantly, I was utterly bemused by a Guardian newspaper article I read in 2002 which made a point of 'grudgingly' printing the flag in recognition that it could be re-accepted into society after decades of abuse by the far right. I'm sure this association is completely lost on anyone under 30 now.
The constant questioning by the higher-brow end of the media as to whether the flag of St. George may be construed as racist is serving no purpose but to plant seeds of doubt into people's minds about whether the flag is acceptable or not. Completely left alone as a subject, in 50 years time any association with the far right will become a historical detail that will probably amuse anyone but that tiny sector of the population who are either trying to be offended by displays of patriotism or who are being plain classist.
Perhaps we should just let time continue to heal the wounds of far right association that is already something of an anachronism?
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67. At 6:21pm on 14 Jun 2010, baronsamedi wrote:
I think the reason people cringe at English nationalism is because of England's relatively recent history of imperialism and racism. Only once the UK dissolves and the Commonwealth starts to dump the royals can England finally move on and find it's post-colonial identity.
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There have been warrior peoples and conquered/subject peoples since time immemorial...and the English are hardly the only 'guilty' parties in this respect...I believe the Romans and the Vikings where also rather handy at the old imperialism business.
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Just remember, you choose to live in England...if you dont like the English or the English flag you always have the right to go and live elsewhere, we do not keep you here against your will.
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It's a sad thing that companies in this country object to flag flying whether it be on St Georges day or for sporting events.
They are the people that perpetuate the theory that it's just the BNP or people of thier ilk that use this as their logo.
It is the English flag and should be used as such for England, whether it be for someone flying the flag in their garden the whole year round or on certain days.
Pride in your country is a good thing and the only way of stamping down the minorities who use it as a rasict tool is for everyone to be able to fly the flag without reproach.
Incidentally, I am of Indian descent, but born and raised in England and believe myself to be both English and British. It's only when I have to fill in an 'equal opps' form do i not feel in any way equal or English!!
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"I bet the vast majority of the England flags on display at the moment are chinese imports.
What does that say about our national pride?"
It says that Chinese-produced England flags are cheaper than British-produced ones. It says absolutely nothing about national pride. I have no doubt my flags are imported - does that mean I'm less proud than someone who paid through the nose for a home-made one? I think not. What a total non-point.
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i am a british born asian and i am flying my british flags from the car!
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Anyone, saint or loony, can wave a flag or wear it as underwear in most of the enlightened World (sorry USA) - and that is a good thing too. But when people with weird agendas start clothing themselves in the flag we should be aware why. Extreme nationalism and racism are truly awful, but we need to be kind to them, whilst rejecting their extremist and divisive ideology.
There is huge chasm between pride in ones country and racist nationalism - flags signify support for the nation's team - but this is limited and constrained by playing the game according to the agreed rules and respect fro the other team and country. The racist xenophobic nationalist hates everyone whereas the national sports supporter loves everyone - at least after the game is over win, lose or draw!
#63 aardfrith wrote: "I am English, British and European. I am a green (environmentally), pink (skin colour) ... I am all of these things but above all, I'm a person, an individual. I have many flags and for the next few weeks, the one I'm flying is red and white."
I'd go along with that except I will not be waving a flag as it has too much baggage - even the red and white Polish flag. I am a bit surprised that the previous poster wants to wave the Polish flag, but hey everyone to his own!!!!
Isn't it odd, we wave the flag of a levantine saint who never came here?
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People should remember that patriots, nationalists and racists all share the same flag - no matter which country the flag represents
I am a Scottish patriot and nationalist and the only issue I would have a problem is a foreign flag flying in Scotland without either the saltire or union jack.
Your flag should be able to rally all the people in your country, if not, you have a serious problem and I would expect your nation to dissolve eventually.
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77. barbara99
Barbara99 - Good for you. Regarding your 'british flags'. There is 1 United Kingdom flag and 3 national flags (wiki):
UNITED KINGDOM
Flag of the United Kingdom (popularly known as the Union Jack)
GREAT BRITAIN
Flag of England (popularly known as the Flag of St. George)
Flag of Scotland (popularly known as St Andrew's Cross or the Saltire)
Flag of Wales
Which flag(s) are you flying?
Regards
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"There have been warrior peoples and conquered/subject peoples since time immemorial...and the English are hardly the only 'guilty' parties in this respect...I believe the Romans and the Vikings where also rather handy at the old imperialism business."
True, (although those examples are not "relatively recent"). But you can't be jingoistic and behave with a "we rule the world" attitude and then expect other countries to support your football team!
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#80. Sent before complete by mistake.
Flag of Wales (popularly knwon as the Red Dragon)
Which of these are you flying,
Regards
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"I think the reason people cringe at English nationalism is because of England's relatively recent history of imperialism and racism."
Yes. In fact I sometimes wonder how the rest of Europe could bare to let us imperialist, racist, barbarians join such an elegant and sophisticated organisation as the EU.
After all it's a well known fact that South America chose to use Spanish as a lingua franca because of their art, culture and learning, the same for much of West Africa and their use of French. Certainly such enlightened nations could never themselves have been racist imperialists going about enslaving and exploiting native populations.
Could they?
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jackethangs
It's not the history, which is in the past and cannot be changed. It's the arrogance of thinking that it doesn't matter.
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"It's not the history, which is in the past and cannot be changed. It's the arrogance of thinking that it doesn't matter."
In which case I don't think that there's a flag of a single nation which can be flown guilt free.
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"If the Scots, Welsh, Irish , Uncle Tom Cobley et al dont like it if the English fly there national flag...tough...write a letter to the 'Guardian' if that makes you feel better lol!"
I'm not going to presume to speak for any other nationality, but I don't think anybody here in Wales objects to you flying your flag in your own country, and only a tiny minority objects to you flying it in Wales. When a group of England supporters drove past here slowly the other day in a car festooned with English flags, with the windows open and yelling anti-Welsh abuse, the response from the locals was just a shrug of the shoulders and "Well, that's the English for you". But if you choose to behave like that, you can't really complain that we don't support your team.
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"In which case I don't think that there's a flag of a single nation which can be flown guilt free."
There's nothing wrong with flying the St George's Cross. All I'm saying is that in order to leave behind the imperialist legacy it might be wise to be slightly more self-aware. For example, rebranding British honours (OBE, MBE, etc), remove the Queen as head of state of Commonwealth countries, along with her dozens of official representatives in those countries, etc.
The grandfather of the current President of the USA was violently tortured in the name of maintaining this Empire, a mere 60 years ago. Hardly ancient history.
The English should be able to be patriotic and celebrate Englishness, without the baggage of the empire or a fascist minority. Being more sensitive about such 'traditions' might help leave these connotations behind for good. The disintegration of the UK would also help.
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I've become less cynical about flags and patriotism as I've grown older and seen different people's and countries' way of showing them. However I'm not convinced the British or the English can tell the difference between patriotism and nationalism, and I remain sceptical whenever I see a union flag or St. George's cross outside of the Euro or World Cup.
Let's not single out the English either - the only reason patriotism and flag-waving is acceptable or even fashionable in Wales, Ireland and Scotland is because it's first and foremost about simply not being English.
In the long run though, flags and national identity are more about division than unity. I don't know what reason anyone has to be proud of being from or in a certain country, when all the good morals and values we have are universal and shared by many countries the world over.
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The only people who seem to associate the Cross of St George with the far right and racism appear to be the BBC and the Guardian. Who every single time the English flag is mentioned conveniently forget that the BNP's flag is the Union Flag not the Cross of St George, same for the NF before them. The "EDL" formerly the "English & Welsh Defence league" is also a British nationalist movement - they wave as many Union Flags as they do English one's.
The Cross of St George doesn't need reclaiming for anyone, the English are not a racist people. The Union flag... well that's associated with all kinds of nasty British nationalists and I'd put Gordon Brown near the top of that list.
England will be the only country represented at the World Cup without its own national day, its own national anthem or its own national parliament. In terms of recognition all the English have are our flag, sport and of course OUR language. No wonder we'll use any excuse to fly it.
The process of devolution in the "UK" consulted the people of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland on the establishment of their own parliament and assemblies. England on the other hand was balkanised into competing, EU regions without consultation or consent.
The English (outside London) get the least per person funding in the UK. Leading to the lowest per person investment in health, education, transport and every other area of service provision. Leaving the English paying £7.20 per prescription while the Scots pay £3 and the Welsh get theirs free. Leaving English pensioners having to sell their homes to pay for nursing care - free in Scotland. Leaving English students paying tuition fees - paid for by the state in Scotland.
The continued association of the Cross of St George with racism, by the British establishment media is deliberate. The British government fears above all else that the people of England will wake up and start demanding equality of funding, recognition and representation with the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish. They fear that this in turn will lead to the break up of the UK and to the end of their big Britisher delusions of grandeur.
Above all, when I fly my Cross of St George from my house, I am saying loud and clear that I am English not British - and I know I'm not alone in that.
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Clueduprock:
#88.
"Let's not single out the English either - the only reason patriotism and flag-waving is acceptable or even fashionable in Wales, Ireland and Scotland is because it's first and foremost about simply not being English."
Yes, beleive that if it makes you feel better but I can assure you, at least the people of Scotland, we remain patriot because we enjoy celebrating our history, culture and our future together as a community and country. It has nothing to do with the English or Englishness. That's typical of the English, though. However, I shall share a secret with you. Your opinion/view is actually one reason why Scots tend to criticise the English. You always have to feel the centre of the attention and that the Scots, Irish and Welsh are somewhat jelous of you as people.
"In the long run though, flags and national identity are more about division than unity. I don't know what reason anyone has to be proud of being from or in a certain country, when all the good morals and values we have are universal and shared by many countries the world over."
Flags and identity is about history and culture. Every group has overcome difficulties and we all have stories that we should we proud of. Why not be proud of that?
Oh, morals are not universal either. The establishment or the elite tend to influence what we believe is right and wrong. If we all shared the same morals and values we wouldn't ever have to have debates about capital punishment for example.
Question to you. How much do you value human life, because I certainly don't and I suspect you may not agree with my views about helping to ensure the worlds population does not get out of control.
But when push comes to shove you can expect many people to drop what they beleive to be right and wrong for survival.
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clueduprock
I'm sorry, but I think this is complete nonsense. As pointed out in the article, there is nothing wrong with nationalism when it is about a nation gaining self-determination or equality (Gandhi was a nationalist). It's only when it is about superiority or conquest (e.g. Nazi Germany or the British Empire) that it becomes wrong.
I love to meet people from other countries, and the vast majority ARE proud of their country. Of course, people are largely the same the world over, but the little differences that do exist make the world a richer place.
Your comments about Wales, Ireland and Scotland are a bit silly. Do you really believe that? Does that stement also hold true for the rest of the world?
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Don't look at the fact that the flag is being flown but rather look at who is flying it. It is quite clear that shaven headed BNP members flying the Cross of St George are not aiming to unify the people of England regardless of skin colour or religion, but I don't believe (as some on the left maintain) that they represent the majority of English flag wavers.
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Englandrise:
#89.
"...same for the NF before them. The "EDL" formerly the "English & Welsh Defence league" is also a British nationalist movement - they wave as many Union Flags as they do English one's."
It's actually another example of 'Great Britain = England' that we usually see. It's not a British nationalist movement or we may actually see stronger support all over in the United Kingdom. In fact considering that the EDL has hot stops in several English cities/regions, it may be difficult to argue that it's an English nationalist movement. However, what is clear is that EDL is representive partly of English society. You can put a union jack on it but it's dominantly English people, in English cities talking about their local English issues i.e. immigration that is actually much lower in Scotland compared to England hence why we do not have as many issues with immigrants.
"The Cross of St George doesn't need reclaiming for anyone, the English are not a racist people. The Union flag... well that's associated with all kinds of nasty British nationalists and I'd put Gordon Brown near the top of that list."
The English are capable of racism as are the Scots, Welsh and Irish and every other ethinic group in the world. Just remember, flags of all colours represent that country. That includes racists and other individuals who views and opinion you may not agree with. The topic is about perception and association. The media defines these things and what do you think defines Englishness in our media?
Although I wouldn't be an idiot and generalise a whole group of people based on a minority of bad apples, not everyone is as open minded as I am.
"Above all, when I fly my Cross of St George from my house, I am saying loud and clear that I am English not British - and I know I'm not alone in that."
This is quite strange. Is it not possible to simply be proud to be English, why must you feel that you need to highlight that your anti-British as I am? I feel that your identity has been created because of your local interal politics issues and the fact you don't consider yourself British. So, what happens once your perceived evils are sorted? How will you define Englishness then?
Even before devolution Scots were still Scots. We had three hundred years without our own Parliament, with London settling matters but we're still Scots... perhaps thats something to consider.
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"For example, rebranding British honours (OBE, MBE, etc), remove the Queen as head of state of Commonwealth countries, along with her dozens of official representatives in those countries, etc."
I think that's actually up to those nations who choose to have her as their head of state. We haven't imposed her on anyone.
"The English should be able to be patriotic and celebrate Englishness, without the baggage of the empire or a fascist minority."
So the Scots, Welsh and yes, the Irish, had nothing to do with the Empire? It's just ours (the English') now is it?
Are we now seeing a re-writing of history for the BRITISH Empire which was, after all, borne afloat by Scottish built ships and fuelled by Welsh coal. Certainly Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dublin wouldn't have been the cities they are without it, any more than Liverpool, Bristol or London.
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Speaking as a proud and patriotic Scot I have to ask, "What is it with some people?" Of course you should be waving your red and white flags during the World Cup - and any other time you like. I was living in Coventry and waved my Saltire in the seventies when Scotland got through in 74 an 78 (I did get beaten up for it, but that's another issue).
When I wave the Saltire it doesn't mean I hate the English or anybody else - my wife's English, my mother's English, half my family are English - it means that I feel a sense of belonging among the Scots. I'm sure that most English folk wave their crosses of St George in the same way. There's nothing 'racist' about it.
And frankly attempting to stop English people from waving their flag during the world Cup is an absolute gift to the genuine racists among us. It really is very silly.
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I agree with the poster who said that for anyone born in the mid-80s or later, there is no association between the BNP/NF and St. George's Cross. The BNP are always seen to use the Union Flag anyway.
I feel that both the Union Flag and St. George's Cross represent me, as does the county flag of Devon. Not being a Eurosceptic (which seems to be rare in this country), I am also represented by the European flag. I think it's great that more people are displaying England's flag, though I prefer to see it when it's not defaced with the word 'ENGLAND' across it :-p
What we need now if for people to feel they can fly flags (whichever they want) other than during sporting events. I would personally like to see the Union Flag and/or St. George's Cross a staple feature of all government/public/civic buildings in England.
'England expects that every man will do his duty' :-)
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"So the Scots, Welsh and yes, the Irish, had nothing to do with the Empire? It's just ours (the English') now is it?"
No. What you say is, of course, factually correct. In my experience, though, the "we rule the world" mentality is more common amongst the English, and is more associated with them than with these other nations.
This article is, after all, about why some English people find it hard to be patriotic. I think the English are still stuck with the idea of Britishness and are trying to disentangle it from Englishness. The fact that this article addresses some incredibly basic concepts such as race, nationhood, and patriotism, shows just how confused some English people are about their identity.
My take on it:
1) Lose the concept of race, as per comments #61 and #62. (This is mind-numbingly obvious, but a large section of the media seems unable to make this distinction)
2) Disentangle the notions of Britishness and Englishness. Most easily done by getting rid of the antiquated institutions of empire or union. I think it requires the breakup of the UK.
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Recently returned from a trip to England and noticed that CofE churches still fly the flag of England and St George. UI remember this from my youth, and still like the idea.
It is time to start celebrating St Georges Day - April 23rd BTW (Also Shakespeare's Birthday and the day of his death) with at least a National Holiday (Bank Holiday), and preferably parades and fireworks. And what about Trafalgar Day (October 21st)? Another good English "Day" lost to recent history.
The "English" (no matter where they originated from, should be free to fly the national emblem as and whenever they like, and reclaim the pride.
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Yeah. I felt a sigh of relief when I saw a van drive by with two ST. George's cross flags wafting proudly in the California air. We share a common ancestor and language. That's a welcome sight in America these days.
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Easton the Orwell admirer:
"Most of these tales turn out either to be nonsense or to reflect corporate concerns about safety or branding"
Quite sure about that Easton?
"In the shadow of World War II, one can understand why Orwell saw "patriotism" as a passive force (Britain) and "nationalism" as an aggressive force (Germany), but the distinction is important."
Yes,because "Britain" in no way was a war-mongering satrap of International Finance during ww2,were "we",Easton?
"Germany`s unforgivable crime before the second World war was her attempt to extricate her economic power from the world`s trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance it`s opportunity to profit"
Letter from Winston Churchill to Lord Boothby as quoted in Sydney Rogerson`s "propaganda in the next war" 2001
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Easton the Stalin admirer:
"Joseph Stalin got closer to defining a modern nation when he said that it was a "historically evolved, stable community of language, territory, economic life and psychological make-up manifested in a community of culture"."
Yes,"Uncle Joe" had lots of good ideas,shame about the tens of millions of unnecessary deaths eh?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Pity we had to use the cross of St George.
Dear BiiBoidshateu "As a pro-white Englishman" (comment 102) why do you use this symbol as your flag. St George was born in Palestine of a Turkish Father (thought to be Anatolian) and Palestinian Mother around 275 AD. His father was a commander in the Roman Army of occupation. Real purity of race there then. And of course he was white? But no he wasn't, he was half Turk, Half Arab. Oh dear oh dear!
I wonder if the BNP and EDF realise the irony? But of course they don't, most of them don't have the intellectual capacity.
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103. At 04:23am on 15 Jun 2010, terryd wrote:
Pity we had to use the cross of St George.
Dear BiiBoidshateu "As a pro-white Englishman" (comment 102) why do you use this symbol as your flag
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Because it`s been used for centuries as the flag of my country.
As it happens,I much prefer the White dragon on red background.
As for patron saints,that`s all just a bunch of mythology anyway surely?
Don`t even get me started on the "English" Doughnut League.........
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103. At 04:23am on 15 Jun 2010, terryd wrote:
Pity we had to use the cross of St George.
Dear BiiBoidshateu "As a pro-white Englishman" (comment 102) why do you use this symbol as your flag. St George was born in Palestine of a Turkish Father (thought to be Anatolian) and Palestinian Mother around 275 AD. His father was a commander in the Roman Army of occupation. Real purity of race there then. And of course he was white? But no he wasn't, he was half Turk, Half Arab. Oh dear oh dear!
I wonder if the BNP and EDF realise the irony? But of course they don't, most of them don't have the intellectual capacity
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Talking of intellectual capacity,you do know that White people were to be found all over the middle-east and N.Africa during that time period dont` you?
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I don't know about racist, patriotic or nationalistic: it's a vaguely diverting discussion to have round the dinner table, I guess. I just find the desire to fly the flag in the US, or England, or Canada, or Greece, or wherever I see it, to say that "this" is "who we are" as just naff and a sign of some sort of insecurity.
By the way, is the flag of St George to be resuced from the extreme Right only to be demoted to a symbol of an international football team?
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As an Englishman. I chose to fly my English flag as I am a lover of my English history. I have studied England from its birth through to the might it grew into making it the dominant opower on European battlefields, through to it defeating the Welsh and Irish and holding great area of Scotland. Defending England agisnt the Scottish, Google, Flodden field, Halidon Hill, Homildon hill, Battle of the Standard orthe many battles in France during the Hundred years war where a rag tag English army defeated the French with her Scottish Allies.
I am proud of Englands military past and proud to carry the Cross of St George, from Palenstine yes..so what! It was carried into Battle for almost a Thousand years by English Armies. Oh by the way You Welsh should read you history and you will see that you fought alongside the English at all our victoris and defeats.
What is an eye opener here is the Scots and Welsh are the main contributors, slagging off England. The recent upserge over the last 10 years in English National Pride is all down to this anti feeling towards us.
We English long for the Union to break up se we can be free of the Parasitic Celtic Nations. My 12 year old son is already an English Nationalist and with Millions like him learning from an early age he is English and not British and learning his English history to back his claims...the future is bright for England.
FOREVER ENGLAND
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'........also a reminder of how our national emblem was appropriated by racists during the 1970s and '80s.'
Really? To my knowledge it has always been the Union flag which is the symbol of the racists. Moseley's pro nazi fasicts in the 1930's, and the National Front and BNP. At least you didn't say 'reclaim from the far right' which is something I suppose!
The Unionists are still anti English racists, denying us a democratic voice in the form of an English Parliament English Executive and English First Minister.
Why do we constantly have analysis of the English? What about the Scottish Nationalists? Are they xenephobes? They seem to have a fear of the English. Can we have an article about the SNP please.
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Not sure what country FrankandTomsDad is referring to. I asked at my local town hall here in southern Germany and I was told there are no regulations concerning the flying of a non-commercial flag. (For a commercial one you have to pay tax.) The St George's Cross has been fluttering from our flagpole for a good five years and there's never been any kind of adverse comment. Clearly it's a sign of the good humour and tolerance people are capable of in this part of the world. One passer-by did ask if I was Danish though! I shall have the flag at half-mast if England get knocked out of the World Cup (some people are daring to say "when" - joke!).
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I'm a vexillologist (student of flags) and when I see the locality covered with the English flag my first thought is of football.
Actually I'm supporting Greece in the World Cup, the country I love and intend to retire to - and a nation where you find the national flag all over the place day in, day out. Round here in Crewe the England flag only comes out when the footie is on. There is one fellow who flies it year round but he's a football fan and also flies a Liverpool FC flag.
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Ironically by waving your flag your actually not being very british because its not a very british thing to do.
I think this stems from the empire etc. British people traditionally are very sceptical of government and the nation itself.
And so generally the sort of people you see with flags on their cars and on their houses are generally quite common and dim.
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"It is often argued that the notion of nationalism was created along with the first nation-state - usually said to be France in 1789. "
Anyone who reads a history of France will know it coalesced into a nation only in the 20th century. In the 19th century, there were perhaps a dozen different languages spoken, and people defined themselves according to their region. "France" only existed for the Parisians. See, for example, The Discovery of France by Graham Robb. Great Britain, even with its distinctive Celtic nationalities, has been a far more homogeneous grouping of people and culture for far longer than France.
As for the Flag of St George, I now shudder when I see it. It used to be an emblem of pride in the days when as schoolchildren we celebrated St George's Day. But now I associate it with skinheads,the BNP, drunken cricket fans, and the violence of soccer supporters. Give me the Union Flag any day - it is unique, and combines the flags of the constituent peoples (except for the welsh
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What is the matter this site? I can never finish a comment! If I accidentally hit the return button, the unfinished or unedited comment gets posted.
Ludicrous. I will refrain from any further postings,no matter how provocative the BBC is, because, unlike the BBC, I like to make my comments accurate
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Baronsamedi
"My take on it:
1) Lose the concept of race, as per comments #61 and #62. (This is mind-numbingly obvious, but a large section of the media seems unable to make this distinction)
2) Disentangle the notions of Britishness and Englishness. Most easily done by getting rid of the antiquated institutions of empire or union. I think it requires the breakup of the UK."
Very much agreed on both points.
bonzerpeach
"As for the Flag of St George, I now shudder when I see it. It used to be an emblem of pride in the days when as schoolchildren we celebrated St George's Day. But now I associate it with skinheads,the BNP, drunken cricket fans, and the violence of soccer supporters. Give me the Union Flag any day - it is unique, and combines the flags of the constituent peoples (except for the welsh)"
So you disassociate yourself from a flag which was never used by the NF/BNP and embrace the one that was/is at their very heart? There's that cognitive dissonance again...
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The only people who are ashamed and sad to see our flag flying or associate it with hooligans are thick.
Have they not picked up a book and read our History? its something to be proud of and stand up for. I am visiting Crecy and Agincourt later this year for the 5th time and cant wait...it makes me proud to stand on those fields (By the way if you need to ask what Agincourt and Crecy is then you are not a true Englishman so dont waste my time)
Also football hooligans? All i have see is English fans partying with the fans of other nations and blowing those damn trumpet things!!!
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You miss one aspect of this.
Although Scots can have a 'Scottish Nationalist Party' and a person born in Bradford can describe himself as 'Asian' without being considered 'racist' - apparently this does not apply to the English. Equally there is no criticism of black South Africans banging on about their pride in hosting the world cup, or of Japanese people wanting the Americans out of 'their' country - but an Englishman would be criticised for similar views.
I think the whole concept of national or ethnic identity is understood very well by the lefties - they bang on about it enough when it comes to other people.
From what I can see the issue is that English people are not allowed to do the same thing.
Personally I have little interest in it - the whole national identity/patriotism thing is long dead. After decades of Thatcher, Blair and now this ConDem fiasco I think it is every man for himself.
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Perhaps being born in England is an identity all of its own, as if, being the biggest part of the British Isles, the English are no minority needing relief from an inferiority complex. Or perhaps the English have never regarded there being true separation at the borders to Wales and Scotland.
I do find it odd that the cross of Saint George is not something the English can apparently wear with simple pride. Perhaps we are just too nice to those from other places.
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Oh dear moderators,am I not even allowed to say that I don`t support the "England" team because I`m pro-(?)?
Ridiculous and inconsistent censorship.
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As a Scottish person I find the English and English people flying it -
- absolutely normal.
As an observation, I have never heard any Scottish or Irish person express a negative view of what an English person can say or do regarding their English nationality or identity. I have however seen and heard many English people express doubt on the wisdom of expressing thier own nationalism or identity.
English folk should fear no one in flying their own flag why would they?
I have never feared nor associated the cross of St George with racism.
In sum, English folk should wave their flag, be proud of it and do ot as often as they want!
Only one tempering piece of advice, don't wave it in other peoples faces.
On the other hand.
I find the union flag deeply offensive, a scurge on the flags England, Ireland and Scotland (crosses of George, Patrick and Andrew) whose national flags are sullied and tarnished by the union flag.
The union flag stands for oppression, racisim and putting the majority Celtic nations of these islands in their place.
Burn the discredited union flag I say and hoist the flags of the nations of these lands at home and in the UN!
C Mck
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putting aside the flag did you know that on the first day of the world cup admissions to A&E went up 30% nationally. bunch of drunken flag wavers costing our NHS a fortune.
this red cross on a white background was first of all french.. one of the four colours of the crusades. the English one is red background white cross.. go figure...
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For me its the Union Flag for Olympics etc, St George's Flag for Footie, Commonwealth Games etc. No racsism or nationalism intended, just having a bit of fun getting behind my team.
Last world cup I was driving through Tottenham after Ghana had a great result. The streets were packed with Ghanaians waving their flags. They were enjoying themselves and a great athmosphere, despite the traffic clogged up. Was I offended? - no it had been a cracking game. Can anyone imagine the USA without their heartfelt public support of the Stars & Stripes, I often feel envious of their ability to have public national pride.
The country has many immigrants and asylum seekers - do they come here because they feel threatened? No its because we are overall a tolerant country and have values that they feel safe in. We have finally got our flags back and now have the pride to fly them
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At least those who support the English football team are flying the RIGHT flag these days.
In the 1970s, English rugby fans used to turn up at Cardiff Arms Park waving Union flags... and got very confused when I asked them which side they supported!
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Although I live in Scotland and am native Scots it doesn't bother me to take out my England umbrella occasionally. In support of the Englnad national team when they are playing sports matches where I have bet on England to win.
For example, the recent England v Bangladesh cricket match.
Of course it is helpful if it is raining at the same time.
I won't be getting out the umbrella for the World Cup though.
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I am Scottish and live in Glasgow. I am delighted to see England displaying "their flag" - it's really good to see this patriotism. I do not see how it could offend anybody living in England.
PS - I have not seen any US flags in Glasgow.
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Cannot see the problem, why shouldn,t people fly the flag,been living in Sweden over 20 yrs & they have the flag outside their houses when its national days, birthdays & when the children take student.I put both the George cross & the Swedish flag up on birthdays and if relatives are coming over, likewise my Greek & American nieghbours.
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I've got no problem with the english proudly painting flags on their faces, and branding everything with their flags- it actually helps me to discover who to avoid- the more england flags they have the more likely that I'm not really going to like them that much.
there are some exceptions to this rule, but in general, the flag is a great idiot barometer.
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Those who criticise English folk for flying the English flag should get a proper job. It may be nationalist, it may be patriotic but so what? Are we to have all our freedoms stamped on by these stirrers always looking for controversy in the minutiae when none exist.
If people have British citizenship, no matter where they're from if not indigenous, then they would seem to be British or associated with the region in which they live, England, N.Ireland, Scotland and Wales (in alphabetic order, nothing else implied).
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When you stand on the field of Flodden, Agincourt or Crecy as I do often, then you understand what being English is all about.
Me, I wouldnt want to be anything else.
Forever England
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I would like to reply to post 10. I live abroad now but when my life was in south London my friends were indian, pakistani, african and jamaican. i am not racist.
Patriotism IS saying your country is best, your people are best. Your lifestyle is best. i do this all the time (and get knocked back for it) it is competitive fun.
Racism is saying YOU are inferior. Your country is inferior, Your lifestyle is inferior.
It is a difference of subjectivity or objectivity that makes it racist.
Fly the ENGLISH flag HIGH and be PROUD.
I am from Scottish-Irish parents by the way but was born and lived life in Sarf Lundun. I am very proud to be English and British.
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"Can anyone imagine the USA without their heartfelt public support of the Stars & Stripes, I often feel envious of their ability to have public national pride."
Agreed. Our media don't help any, either, with their constant negative nigglings at this or that, adding deeper darker meanings to things which are really innocent.
If you can't fly your own country's flag in your own country, where can you fly it?
If people are offended, they need to look at their own attitudes and securities and ask themselves why it bothers them to see a country's own individual flag.
As a child I spent countless summers in Wales. The Welsh flag is everywhere. Was I offended? No. More often than not I'd take welsh flags home with me because I thought the dragon was beautiful.
Emblems date from a time before everyone was able to read and write, as a mode of identifying to which group you belonged.
The trouble is that society likes teaching us that its a bad thing to be English. It's not. Just like the Scots and the Welsh, it should be seen as okay to be English without being accused of bigotry or anything else.
It would also be nice if we were allowed an English anthem at sport events other than the Commonwealth games...but that's a whole other matter. I think in order to be a real "United Kingdom", all of the countries within that kingdom should have an equal voice. It might seem like the English have the lion's share, but when everything English is considered disrespectful to other people...what happens to our identity then?
We shouldn't have to justify being English. It isn't a crime.
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I prefer to fly the European flag. Just a simple statement that I consider myself European and pleased to be so.
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Let's face, flag-flying in the World Cup context is neither patriotic nor nationalistic, it's just chavvy poor taste. Not enough to have one St George flag fluttering from your Toyota hatchback, has to be a matching set with extra big ones dangling out of the bedroom windows for impact. And you've got to feel for poor supermarket workers forced to wear red/white deely-boppers over a fixed grin while they blip your shopping. If you're at the match it's legitimately tribal to paint the face with wode and drape a flag around the beer-belly. And if you're hosting a football party you could possibly justify flag bunting as 'kitsch decor'. But otherwise... oh dear.
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More pointless censorship...............
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132. At 6:28pm on 15 Jun 2010, nunnjosh wrote:
I prefer to fly the European flag. Just a simple statement that I consider myself European and pleased to be so.
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Please show us a picture with google map references :)
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I say fly the flag with honour and pride. Since when does showing one's love of country equate with nationalism and racism? If the perception is that it does, then it is high time we reclaim our heritage from those who would besmirch the nation's reputation.
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Neither the Union Jack or that red cross representing some long-dead Turk mean anything to me. Not pride, or shame, just utter indifference.
I really can't see the human race amounting to anything other than bald monkeys until it gets over its obsession with coloured pieces of cloth, and the notion of nation. Other creatures mark their territory with excretions, we do it with treaties and wholly invented concepts of nation.
There is no test known to science which you can perform on a human that would detect any property like "Englishness", "Welshness", "Jewishness" or "Muslimness".
Just people.
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I am English and proud of it, my husband is Australian and proud of that. We celebrate Aussie Day and commemorate ANZAC Day, We bow solemnly on Memorial Sunday and email friends on St Davids Day in Wales, But when it comes to ST Georges Day, what is there to celebrate? It isnt a national holiday and chances are since he is in the retail trade and has to work Bank holidays, that would be included,so no time off there, so apart from Patriotic overtures in pubs and the retail bandwagon what on earth is the point of celebrating a saint who beat seven bells out of a dragon (apparently)? and what does it have to do with the English and why should be be proud enough of that to fly the St George?
We are not following the football,(started to but that awful noise on the matches has ruined it) but I had hoped to see more national flags around since we are so multi cultural here now. Last football wc there were riots here, during the last European cup thing there were a lot of European flags around town, so why not this time? The town is decked from head to foot in white and red, and lovely though this is, I do feel its a bit over done and for those of us who are multicultural, its a tad intimidating. I would be more encouraged if there were more of our neighbours flags out, but there are none.You can almost tell by going down the road which houses are not English occupants here! So in the interests of being fair, our flags stay boxed. I am unsure that here after the rioting last time that my neighbours could take a defeat with any grace and putting up any other flag would be a red rag to a bull! Thus, in this town at least, nationalism and football idolism go hand in hand, if we saw more St George flags out more of the time, then I would call it pride in ones nationality,however, at this time, no, just lots of chest thumping...must be a tribal thing like those vuzu whatsits.
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I was born in England and consider myself English before being British. This is the same distinction that Devolution now gives the Welsh, Scottish those of Northern Ireland.
I am not ashamed of seeing the cross of St.George on display as celebration of my country's national endeavours. I am ashamed that I live in a country which does not celebrate St.Georges' day in with the same fervour as those of our Union compatriots. Perhaps unfounded concerns about the offence that may be caused to those of other nations stems from how badly they were treated when many were part of the British empire.
"Be the author, not the reader of the writing on your wall
Always seek to inspire others, live your life by standing tall"
Never cease giving shelter to those who are most in need
Country first in thought and deed"
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52. Anglophone
"Overt acts of national loyalty are for the insecure!"
Boring! (Being uncomfortable with them's to cringe?)
Get your flags out.
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I find the references in this thread to "Celtic nations" disturbing. Surely, the Celts were ancient white tribes, and the word was not applied to the Scots or Welsh until the 1700s? In our multi-ethnic UK, and bearing in mind that the English never were pure Anglo Saxons and the Scots and Welsh never were Celts, I find this troubling.
The UK's sub-nationalities are simply that - nationalities - not based on mythology about being descendants of ancient white tribes. That smacks of racism. The Scots and Welsh are certainly not of common stock.
And being English, Scottish or Welsh does not depend on race, creed or colour. However, in England the UK Government rams "Britishness" down the throats of all new arrivals and the politically correct crowd do all they can to demonise Englishness and make it seem exclusive.
The national bodies in Scotland and Wales are doing a fine job in encouraging inclusive, civic Sots and Welsh nationalities.
But the UK Government wouldn't dream of doing such a thing for England. For UK MPs, it would be rather like turkeys voting for Christmas.
Also, the British Empire - the Scots were disproportionately involved in its running, and David Cameron has referred to certain of his ancestors being involved in what he calls the "Scottish Empire". Why all this scapegoating of the English?
Another comment here refers to Scotland being ruled from London before the Scots Parliament. But then Scotland had its own Secretary of State and a disproportionate number of MPs. I believe it still DOES have a disproportionate number of MPs - and a Scottish Secretary - as well as its own parliament.
I really do not see how the English are any worse (or better) than the peoples of any of the other constituent nations of the UK.
But lacking a national voice to speak up for them, they certainly make good scapegoats, don't they?
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11. Jim M
Em, the world has moved on! Britain will soon be a memory here aswell.
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17. Jon
Actually it is your serious belief that we are jealous, that makes it funny to 'play'. My flag's nicer ;-)
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77. barbara99
Groovy, but Britain aren't in it ;-)
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I am a Scot. I don't own a flag: never have, never will. I am not a nationalist nor a patriot.
However when Scotland are playing in a tournament(been a while, I know), I will give them me fervent support, but this stops at the final whistle.
Nationalism and patriotism are too important to be judged alongside a football tournament, where people get caught up in a moment and lose all sense of rationality, assuming they had any in the first place.
Sadly, for too many people, football and bingo are the modern sop to the masses.
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Mark:
Good link in with Orwell, as it happens 70 years ago George had just joined the LDV (local defense volunteers), now that was a patriotic act. He was preparing to defend against the Nazis, a German Nationalist political party run by an Austrian. (an ironic statement but possibly racist in nature)
Anybody can be a patriot, we are all in it together.
Nationalists are paranoid and exclusive, they are all out to get us.
Flying a flag has the meaning associated by the flyer, the flag itself is meaningless.
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# 141
You have some strange ideasss views from a Celtic nation.
Devolution is not about giving Scotland powers (don't let the brits con you on this!), it is about giving Scots a sop to prevent them walking away from union.
The Scottish mps at westminster, as a nationalist, I want "zero" Scottish mps at westminster. Ultimately to live as good neighbours with England on equal footing within the EU.
No country is completely made up of one race, but in Scotland's case the majority of people are of Celtic stock, specifically from the branch containg the Gaels of Scotland and Ireland (Scots).
I or no other Scots I know, have ever had any desire to force britishness on England. From the outside it appears that English people and trying to foist britishness on themselves as they see the two interchangeable.
Scots know who they are, it is clear the same level of clarity on identy does not exist in England. Don't blame outsiders for your lack of purpose or clarity!
If you wish to see England become a proud and soveriegn nation, do what the Scottish people have done and form an English party that puts England first and wishes her to be an independent member in the UN. But, this is ultimately an English question for the English.
C McK
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My 'England Flags' have over-printed on them :-
" England - Love it or Leave " .
When someone suggested it was 'Racist' my reply was 'NO it is NOT !' because the statement applies to EVERYBODY !
I still fly my flags DESPITE what people say !
The incorrect and racist interpretation is in their MIND, not mine !
Publish MY comments and my critics be damned !
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England is the only country where this debate could ever be had. In every other country, flying the national flag is about pride in your nation and a sense of shared identity and common purpose. It is therefore entirely normal that in major sporting events, where, after all, nations are pitted against each other, there should be a tendency to wave the flag even more - even the official song of the competition urges us to do so! English people, of all shapes and sizes, should stop navel gazing about such a non-issue, fly the flag with pride, and enjoy supporting their team (even if it is agonizing!)
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Every year the BRITISH come up with this anti-English drivel. The worst enemies of the English are the British.
Why not have a go at the Scots? The flag of the Ku Klux Klan is based on the Scottish flag to reflect its Scottish roots. Ever wondered why it called itself a Klan (clan)? The burning of crosses Klan-style is a "Celtic" tradition.
Every year we are reminded that St George was not English (yet flying his flag is racist), but everybody conveniently forgets that the patron saint of Scotland, St Andrew, was a Jew who never set foot in Scotland.
It is no surprise that the BBC leads the way in Anglophobia, especially post-devolution. This is why the BBC promotes the regional carve-up of England, in order to promote England's demise. We need a BBC England, just as there is a BBC Scotland.
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"On Friday, a friend joked that he didn't realise I was a BNP supporter when he saw an England flag on my car. It was a joke but also a reminder of how our national emblem was appropriated by racists during the 1970s and '80s."
How can something such as a country's flag and what it symbolizes be simply "appropriated by racists?" For that to be true it would have had to have been given up by those that are not racist.
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Visiting the Battlefield of Flodden soon. Englands fantastic victory over a larger Scottish force that had invaded England to rape and destroy.
Google Flodden Field and have a see.
When I stand on that field it reminds me why i love being English
FOREVER ENGLAND
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All flags are nationalistic and therefore racist (in a weak sense)to some extent. Given that ones nationality is largely an accident of birth it is an odd thing to have "pride" in as a concept. But we still live in an age where national boundaries means something to many people, even as our global interdependence is becoming more evident. I think it is manifestation of tribalism that we must and probably will grow out of eventually. So no, I won't be flying any flags and insofar as I enjoy the football at all it will be for the skill and entertainment regardless of who wins.
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If our government has ignored the English flag for 40 + years then ... that is where the problem lies.
Full credit to David Cameron for restoring the flag for the World Cup.
The English flag should be shown whenever and wherever possible.
Perhaps even the BBC could take the hint?
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150. At 10:44am on 16 Jun 2010, StephenGash wrote:
Every year the BRITISH come up with this anti-English drivel. The worst enemies of the English are the British.
We need a BBC England, just as there is a BBC Scotland.
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While most of this is drivel you have reversed into the key point - the national media - the BBC does not know the difference between English and British.
No Scot objects to the english flying the english flag in england - there may be a problem if you stick it in someones face - like wise the english need to learn that the same latitude also applies to the Scots.
Scots clearly know their Scottish and British and probably European - but when the media uses English and British interchangeably we have a focus for friction.
I am British - but I am not English
Ponder if you will, how would the english react to 80% of their media coverage being rampant German \ Argentinian or even French biased jingoism- you might want to complain and you would be justified - well thats just what happens in Scotland right now.
The Scots also fought in those wars - but we have got past it - just like Dunkirk the english were sent to the beaches the scots were sent to meet the germans - but we were British then - accept it.
Fly you flags, revel in your Englishness - but don't dare complain that it is not British for the Scots not to support you
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152. At 4:21pm on 16 Jun 2010, Jon wrote:
Visiting the Battlefield of Flodden soon. Englands fantastic victory over a larger Scottish force that had invaded England to rape and destroy.
Google Flodden Field and have a see.
When I stand on that field it reminds me why i love being English
FOREVER ENGLAND
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Grow up
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
146. At 01:19am on 16 Jun 2010, BobRocket wrote:
Nationalists are paranoid and exclusive, they are all out to get us.
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Yes,because "they" are really not "out to get us(and our territory) are they Bob Rocket?
Do you live in a nice leafy suburb,Bob?
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You people make me laugh.
So studying your countrys history and visiting the many places of its glory make you a racist.
Feeling pride when you stand on the actual field that history was made makes you a racist?
Forever English
Forever England
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I think that the fact that we English, as well as we British, fly our flags with much less gusto than other nations - except when there's a major sports event or royal occasion - has more to do with British understatement than anything else. Anyone who has visited the USA will be surprised at how many homes and establishments fly the Stars and Stripes, even on non-special-occasions - but remember, Americans (for example, every morning at school) pledge their allegiance not to their President, but to their Flag (maybe that's why they get so upset if someone burns it). In Denmark, private persons may not flay flags other than the Dannebrog, other Scandinavian flags, or the EU or UN flags.
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Are you sure you want to censor my post158 Moderator?
Or just "refer" it for 48+hours and counting?
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"The Scots also fought in those wars - but we have got past it - just like Dunkirk the english were sent to the beaches the scots were sent to meet the germans."
Errrr no...learn your history. The 5th Division stayed and fought (Scots) as did the 48th for example (English) so you will see it was a joint effort with English Welsh and Scots both staying to defend and also evacuating. Actually more English regiments were involved in the defence than Scots.
Sorry. Thats that SCOTS SAVED THE WORLD" Theory blown out the water.
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160. At 08:32am on 17 Jun 2010, Jon wrote:
You people make me laugh.
So studying your countrys history and visiting the many places of its glory make you a racist.
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Have you ever considered that the joke might be on you,Jon?
What the hell is "national pride" without it`s racial component?
Empty wordist rhetoric that the Left and their "respectable" conservative "opponents" just love to chew the rancid fat off until The End Of Time.
Meanwhile:
Africa For the Africans,Asia for the Asians,White countries for EVERYBODY.
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May i congratulate you BiiBoidshateu for a post that does not need the Censors pen.
You are obvioulsy not that stupid after all?
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I am Scottish and would be more offended if I went South of the Border and didn't find the St George's corss flying proudly! If you are English then be as proud of it as I am to be Scottish. It's a shame that the very first person commenting on this thread decided to bring it straight into a 'Scottish' attitudes debate which was not really the point of the post - more an excuse for that individual to make their own point.
What I would say, and I think it was touched upon later in the thread, is that England fans should wave their St Georges as opposed to the Union Jacks - it's always amazed me how many people don't realise they are not flying their own countries' flag. I;m not saying you can't be proud to be British, I certainly am, but it just looks very odd when you are clearly supporting only one part of the Union. I also believe my neighbours could/should have their own National Anthem - I still can't understand why they don't?
So my English cousins, fly those crosses proudly - and if anyone tells you not to, just wave them harder.
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Just to add my two-penn'orth:
#15: What worries me most is English councils do not fly the St.George, the Church of England rarely fly it (none of the 3 CofE churches in my area have it flying - and it is the churches flag)
Councils are part of the structure of the State, and consequently fly the national flag of the government. As there isn't an English Parliament/Assembly, that's the Union Flag. It's different in the other parts of the United Kingdom.
The Church of England has rules about when it flies flags, and in any case the Church flag is only based on the flag of St George: each diocese has its coat of arms in the canton. My church does have such a flag and has flown it regularly, but for Church occasions rather than secular, in accordance with the rules.
As it happens the last time was for the diocesan patron-saint's day last weekend when it was joined (on another flagstaff) by the Swedish flag --
#125: ...they have the flag outside their houses when its national days, birthdays & when the children take student. I put both the George cross & the Swedish flag up on birthdays and if relatives are coming over
-- because we welcomed a sizeable contingent of Swedish students to the parish. Normally when we have both flagstaffs up the Church flag is flown accompanied by the Union Flag, again because the Church is part of the State.
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As a new citizen of England (or Britain or the United Kingdom, I'm never sure of the correct designation) I'm surprised at the lack of 'English' nationalism. There is no shortage of Scottish or Welsh national pride but virtually no promotion of England (excepting of course the current World Cup support).
To a newcomer it appears that England has ceased to exist and now operates as Britain or the United Kingdom, even though countries like Scotland and Wales strongly insist on their independence. Why then does England alone have to forfeit their national pride and identity?
I can't imagine a Canadian company, or any Canadian group, prohibiting the display of the Canadian flag or Canadian pride for any reason, not to mention in support of a world sporting title. In the USA it might well be a crime to deny someone their national pride.
So go ahead all you flag wavers, you face painters, you proud England supporters. Our team has a very real chance at becoming world champions, in a sport we all love and nothing, absolutely nothing, should stop us from supporting the team and the nation.
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"Councils are part of the structure of the State, and consequently fly the national flag of the government. As there isn't an English Parliament/Assembly, that's the Union Flag. It's different in the other parts of the United Kingdom"
Wrong....East Cheshire Council is flying the George Cross on all its buildings and encouraged council staff to fly the George cross on its vehicles.
Nice to see that damn old union flag gone.
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This is my 2nd world cup living in Ingerland, it'll end exactly the same as 2006, knocked out and overnight all the flags and bunting vanishes. I'm Scottish and have no interest in supporting England, in fact I don't even watch them play. I've had loads of grief about this but the English just don't get it that we're winding them up and to be honest most of the time it's way too easy. Maybe if they stopped banging on about 1966 most Scots might be a bit more sympathetic, but then again probably not.
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Interesting post Maliman.
If you care to look through the 170 posts here you will see that only you and a few other Scots bang on about "66" we English hardly ever talk about it, you just use it as an excuse as you have never won...well hardly ever qualify to be honest!!
Knocked out, yep, but as I said we qualified.
As for the Scots being sympathetic, dont be. We English are not for you and i can honestly say I love the fact that Scotland yet again is not on the world stage. Actually I call it envy and wind a few Scots up i Know and boy do they get in a huff.
Face facts English Nationalists are on the growth and the government does all it can to stop us growing as we are the biggest country in the Union and when England says we want an end to it that will be it...
Though I hope and pray that before that day Scotland finally gets a vote on the end of the Union to save us the trouble. Can we English vote for Scotlands independance too please?
Forever England
Forever Flodden Field
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I believe this issue would be solved if the home nations were turned into provinces or states. Each with a governor, each with a parliament. Each with it's own flag like provinces in Canada or states in USA or Australia. All this nationality lark is just getting out of hand and it doesn't even look well structured. Before the USA became the size it currently is, it's states were independent countries. They still retain a certain amount of home patriotism as much as they do for the USA as a whole. Can we sort this out so that we never need to worry about arguments such as this.
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165. At 12:04pm on 17 Jun 2010, Jon wrote:
May i congratulate you BiiBoidshateu for a post that does not need the Censors pen.
You are obvioulsy not that stupid after all?
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Different moderator,different worldview....................
So you`re just going to duck out of answering the point I made in my previous post(164)?
So much for "English Courage"........................
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It's not flying the flag that people find offensive: no-one objects to patriotism. The problem is the association of the flag only with football, and football supporters, and the mentality of those supporters who bring the game into disrepute. People haven't forgotten the terrible violence and racism that once soured our national game, and while most of it has thankfully gone, a small amount remains.
Put it this way, I'd feel a lot safer walking through a crowd of theatre-goers than i would a crowd of boozed-up and shouting England fans, regardless of the colours they choose to display. So it's not really offence that people have: it's fear of a potentially ugly situation. The flags being waved are largely irrelevant.
If we used the England flag on other occasions, and not just football/sports, this would make people become more used to its presence, and less fearful. No-one feels apprehensive in America about the presence of the stars-and-stripes: that's how it should be here.
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Courage what answering a post?
MMMM, yes i am terrified!!!!
Your post didnt need answering as it actually is rather funny and completley wrong.
Can I congratulate you though, thats 2 posts in a row without being censord.
Well done
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I confess to finding the whole concept rather confusing. The UK state provides and maintains the infrastructure I ned to survive on a day to day basis and, to a greater or lesser extent, ensures that Most of us can go about our business fairly freely and without molestation. I, in return, do useful work, pay taxes and largely obey the local laws and customs.
This is a perfectly equitable arrangement, but I'm not sure why it requires some sort of emotional component. Things like 'pride' and 'love' seem more appropriate to have for human beings, not something as abstract and historically contngent as a nation state.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
That's great that the english have been flying their own flag in recent years altho there's still too much of the attitude around that englandshire equals britain/uk. It's particularly obvious in the english cricket team which looks more like the scotland cricket team than the scotland cricket team does - dark blue everywhere presumably taken from the union jack which is scotland's part of that flag. Even the precious 3 lions are wearing scotland colours for god's sake!! And that applies to the footie badge as well. It always seems to me that the england cricket people find red too gaudy for them so they've reverted to pinching the dark blue from the british flag as tho that's their flag. If they're so ashamed of red why not use something a bit more sober like burgundy? The england footie team often appear in scotland colours as well of course - dark blue shorts and white shirt with only a hardly visible thin red squiggle on the shirts. All their training kit and merchandise is or used to be dark blue - T shirts etc.
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aawww now you gone and ruined it.
Two posts under consideration at the same time!!!
Ah well.
Forever England
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I think that the widespread display of the St. George Cross could be linked to the wider political situation.
For 12 years the English people have been forced into accepting uncontrolled immigration and subjected to massive social engineering to adopt the multicultural ethos and had their concerns ignored. Opinions contrary to the party line have been silenced under the guise of political correctness or through fear of being branded as racist or far right. Have been denied the right to vote on the future of their country within the wider context of an EU superstate. Have seen their dead soldiers returning from Afghanistan to chanting mobs of Islamic fundamentalist throwbacks and have seen their values insulted by fools like Anjem Choudary and the Taqiyya merchants at the Muslim Council of Britain. Certain newspapers that are nonetheless widely read are abundant with stories of English people being denied their identity in one form or another. Even with regards to our good friends in Scotland we have the West Lothian question and the controversial Barnett formula.
Is it a wonder so many flags are flying with mottos reading "if you are offended then leave" or a more widespread resurgence of patriotism?
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I am so disgusted by some of the treacherous and anti-English sentiment .... that I had to so out and by some more English flags.
English people are the victims of a vicious anti-English 13 year government conspiracy to make England an international 'nowhere land' with no English identity and no English/England only globalisation, jobs and better jobs for celts and legal and illegal immigrants and foreign criminals and 'British/English haters'.
We need to take our country back and keep the cross of St George flying high! This is England ... and not 'no-where land'.
I call myself English by birth and I call myself English by choice and I'm proud of it!
If you don't like England, it's history, customs, traditions, identity and its people? Well, for those who don't ... you know what to do! Take the hint (or rather the plane, boat, Chunnel or ... swim!
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Well said nautonier - with the possible exception of bringing the celts into it. I think us Scots and our Irish, Welsh and English neighbours should be sticking together more now than ever. We ALL benefit from the Union - of that there is absolutely no doubt. People like Jon - as well as some of my equally narrow-minded Scottish countrymen - should realise this instead of bleating all the time with a 'my dads bigger than your dad' attitude.
We are stronger together and should be proud to have such a close relationship, especially during a time when it seems the rest of the world is against us - even the bloomin' yanks now thanks to Obama's recent disgraceful behaviour. We have fought and died together in the past and the generations above would be turning in their grave if they could hear the attitudes of these small minded few.
As for the thread itself - of course you should be waving those St George crosses - and be every bit as proud to do so as I am of the Saltire.
Forever Scotland
Forever Britain
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Ok lets be honest - the only reason anyone is flying a flag is because of the football and once it is all over - flags will be binned or stored away until the next debacle otherwise known as the world cup. It has nothing to do with patriotism or anything else - just a game of football being played by 11 over paid prima donnas who just happen to be playing for somewhere called England
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183. At 11:00am on 18 Jun 2010, AcesAndy wrote:
Well said nautonier - with the possible exception of bringing the celts into it. I think us Scots and our Irish, Welsh and English neighbours should be sticking together more now than ever. We ALL benefit from the Union - of that there is absolutely no doubt. People like Jon - as well as some of my equally narrow-minded Scottish countrymen - should realise this instead of bleating all the time with a 'my dads bigger than your dad' attitude.
We are stronger together and should be proud to have such a close relationship, especially during a time when it seems the rest of the world is against us - even the bloomin' yanks now thanks to Obama's recent disgraceful behaviour. We have fought and died together in the past and the generations above would be turning in their grave if they could hear the attitudes of these small minded few.
As for the thread itself - of course you should be waving those St George crosses - and be every bit as proud to do so as I am of the Saltire.
Forever Scotland
Forever Britain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Some of my more recent ancestors were Irish immigrants to England and so I think I know something about that also.
The Welsh Scots and Irish are encouraged and demand their own identity - but the English are being denied our own ... so it is not anything negative against those who often desribe their own political parties' as representing the 'Celts'. We just need to be sure of 'identity' for all countries in the union ... that I think is democratic. Until this is done ... ther will always be friction and problems.
Once the identity issues are addressed ... I think that many problems will disappear as most who do not like the 'identities' can go somewhere else if they choose to do so or dislike the English/England and everything that goes with it and what the English refuse to give up...
The Union is stronger I think if it has 4 or five countries with clear national identities and with democratic and proportional political processes. I don't want to be British but only because I am English first and I would also like to think that England and Scotland would always be part of some kind of Union.
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185. At 11:34am on 18 Jun 2010, nautonier wrote:
Some of my more recent ancestors were Irish immigrants to England and so I think I know something about that also. The Welsh Scots and Irish are encouraged and demand their own identity - but the English are being denied our own ... so it is not anything negative against those who often desribe their own political parties' as representing the 'Celts'.
My Grandparents are English and I live in Aberdeen where there are thousands of English men and women getting a great living from our Oil industry up here - and I;m glad to have them as they are making an excellent contribution to the community. I guess we both know something about it.
I couldn't agree with you more on the rest of your reply either - I don't think however that England's lack of identity is the fault of others in the union denying them of it. As for our own political parties - the SNP for example got 20% of the vote at the recent General Election - not exactly the widespread hunger for independence others would have people believe.
Your point about the union being stronger if we all had clearer national identities is spot on - and the challenge is for my neighbours South of the Border to promote and encourage this through the correct channels. There's nothing worse than one political party choosing to promote their own by pointing out the negatives of others as opposed to the positives of their own - and the same should apply here (from all corners as all parts of the union are equally guilty of this). England has a chance to take a lead here with their need to establish themselves more on the identity front - and could really do some good if tackled correctly. I for one would support it wholeheartedly.
Ozangus, however, does sum this whole thing up quite nicely though - so well done you - and come on England tonight (yes, from a Scotsman - who'd have though it eh).
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I think the "England" "team" should be made up of 90% non-Whites just to give the multi-cult-lovers their "well-earned" treat.
Enjoy,"England" supporters,enjoy!
Meanwhile:
Africa for the Africans,Asia for the Asians,White countries for EVERYBODY
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We can fly the England flag with pride. We have drawn with the USA and we have drawn with Algeria. This demonstrates that we are at least as good as these teams. If we draw 0-0 with Slovenia on Wednesday, that will be the icing on the cake. Let's look for positivesand fly the flag!
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Great Britain, represented by the Union Flag, is the state created by the joining of Scotland to England and its then possessions Wales and Ireland in 1707. It was referred to as the 'United Kingdoms of Great Britain' and had a unified Parliament of Scots & English MPs.
Since the partial devolution of Wales, NI & Scotland you could argue that the UK is unraveling, leaving only the English to turn off the lights.
What then the national flag? I'd prefer it if we redesigned the Union flag to include Wales & Ireland and flew it with pride throughout these islands, leaving each constituent nation with its own colours.
Fat chance.
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I haven't been bothered about the World Cup because my team isn't playing. I don't consider myself to be English, but British and until Britain play in the World and European Cups I shall be indifferent to these competitions.
The Olympic Team GB will be made up of amateurs and not professional players so anyone that points to this as an experiment or appeasement exercise has failed to note that these are completely different entities.
England won once in 1966 and the other home nations never have so let us try a more united approach.
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190. Blue_Smarty
LOL. Britain is so last century. Good riddance.
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Part of the resentment lies with the way in which the media (including the EBC - sorry, BBC) blast to all corners everything about England and English exclusively and ad nauseam even when other "home nations" are involved in sporting fixtures. For example, the BBC's iconic Today programme on R4 has made no mention at all of Scotland, Wales and Ireland being involved in Rugby Union tests in the southern hemisphere - just England. This Anglo Centricity pervades almost all the media that is supposed to cover the whole of the UK - not just England.
It is especially galling when, as has happened in my part of Wales, English flags are everywhere when both English and Welsh teams have been involved in the same major sporting event. When just one home nation is involved (as in the World Cup) I cannot have any objection. But just imagine! Had Scotland or Wales been the only home nation involved, would all of England have flown a Saltaire or Ddraig Goch? Would the English media, supermarkets and other sponsors have supported them?
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Seeing we all belong to the same race, the human race, why not have a human race flag, and when it is flown every body will be happy
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I'm afraid that the taint of the associations with the BNP (deluded racists) and football (overpaid prima donnas) spoils the flag of St George for me. National pride? Not really, it will all be gone after the great World Cup bore is over.
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The english flag has been use by racists regardless if it is the Union Jack or not. When you get someone approaching an ethnic with a fish in their face muttering 'ingurlund' with the St. George flag on their back I would say it is very fair to say the flag is racist. Those who say go home if you are offended talk about integration! How do you expect anyone to integrate when people who flay the St. Georges flag have no intention of letting others integrate with them.
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More people should fly the English flag. My father used to say 'It's a free Country', seems it isn't anymore.
We really do need to make St George's Day a special day of celebration. Being proud of one's origin is not racist.
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I am British ex-pat living in the US. I grew up, and spent the vast majority of my life in South-East England. While I may be English in nature, I am also an inhabitant of the United Kingdom.
I don't think that flying your chosen flag is either racist or nationalistic. It is my personal believe that modern society has moved on. Times have changed. I don't believe that flying one's chosen flag is stating that any one country is better than another.
The main article main reference to an article written by Geore Orwell:
George Orwell had a go in his 1945 essay Notes on Nationalism:
"Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By 'patriotism' I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."
I believe that one can be patriotic, but in the context of this general discussion, but that it doesn't necessarily mean that the way of life for my chosen country is the best in the world.
I think that waving a flag definitely has more to do with a cultural identity, based upon where you grew up and how you were brought up and educated. I think we all have a desire to belong to something, and perhaps in a very simplistic view, waving one's flag of choice represents a sense of culture identity. I am proud to be English and of my country's historical and cultural heritage. I am proud of our country's traditions.
So yes, I am proud to be English. However, I recognise that England is part of something greater - a union of countries. Each county in the Union has its own cultural identity, both rich in history and traditions. In many cases, though, our individual countries have many shared histories, and I believe that this is what makes the United Kingdom what it is today.
I'm proud to be English. I'm also very proud to be part of the United Kingdom. The British Isles (England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland) are all very beautiful in their own way.
I'm also part Scottish. My family name originates from Sorbie in Scotland. I have not yet visited Sorbie, but have visited other towns and Cities in Scotland, most notably, Edinburgh. Even though I may not have lived in Scotland, I am proud of the history of my family name and the fact that it originates from Scotland. I would love to eventually retire in Scotland.
My point is this: I do not take offence if somebody chooses to wave the Welsh Flag, the Scottish Flag, the Irish Flag or the English Flag or above all else, the Jack. To me it is all about respect and tolerance for others of different "Nations". There is a Scottish Nation, a Welsh nation, and Irish Nation and an English Nation, but together we are a Nation.
Be proud of who you are, and fly your flag with pride.
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I think its good that the English have rediscoverd their "Englishness" but I am afraid a lot of it appears to be based around anti-Scottishness. This thread shows proof of that - just like some Scots are the other way around.
Something I would say is there appears to be a view south of the border we spend out time waving Saltires from everywhere we can and anyone that plays against England - utter rubbish. I am yet to see any flags in my home City other than the odd England one.
In France 98 there were hardly any Saltires up around my City - this is an English phenonmon - maybe if Scotland ever qualify for anything again we will be the same but I personally hope not. Too often with too many people especially football fans it becomes about hating someone else over supporting you own nation.
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197. At 07:06am on 21 Jun 2010, jnhannah wrote:
I am British ex-pat living in the US.
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Why are you an 'expat' flying the england flag? Why aren't you adopting the way of life of the country you have chosen to emigrate to? You are quick enough to tell immigrants who come to the UK to learn the language, live the way 'we' live just because they are in YOUR country, they should support the country's football team blah blah blah.
So Mr Expat.....why do you English STILL fly the english flag and support the england football team as expats in another country?
You would not tolerate anyone putting up their own flag in england when the world cup takes place especially when that team beats england!!!
"It is my personal believe that modern society has moved on. Times have changed. I don't believe that flying one's chosen flag is stating that any one country is better than another."
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You are having a laugh with the above statement, modern society has become incredibly racist and tribal in that flying a flag determines that a particular country is better than another. What planet do you live on mate?
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34. At 4:20pm on 14 Jun 2010, Lancsrose wrote:
I,an English woman,living in France,have a bar on a main road, I have banners with St Georges flags on for the World Cup .....all it shows is I follow and support England,naturally so,I'm English and proud to be,regardless of the fact I currently live abraad ,I haven't lost my nationality.
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THE SAME APPLIES TO YOU......
Why are you an flying the england flag? Why aren't you adopting the way of life of the country you have chosen to emigrate to? You are quick enough to tell immigrants, who come to the UK, to learn the language, live the way 'we' live just because they are in YOUR country, to leave their way of life at home and to adopt the way of the new country, you vote people like the BNP/Tories to get your country back to the indigenous's way of life and say immigrants should support the country's football team blah blah blah.
So.....why do you, as an English woman with a bar in France, STILL fly the english flag in France and support the england football team as a foreigner in another country? Why don't you learn French, integrate into the French way of life, fly the French Flag and support the French Footie Team?
You would not tolerate anyone putting up their own flag in england when the world cup takes place especially when that team beats england, talk about POT KETTLE BLACK!!!!
Hypocrite or what?
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38 - nafahamu
The BNP are the BRITISH national party not the English and have nothing to do with the English flag as far as I'm concerned.
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No but the EDL is ENGLISH DEFENCE LEAGUE and that has everything to do with the english!
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Roxy,
Your response was amazing. In fact I have integrated into the country I moved to due to my job. I have a family, a home, dogs and am fully integrated into society here. Just because I live in the US, it does not mean that I have to reject the UK and the way of life in the UK. It doesn't mean that I still can't support my national team. You should not jump to conclusions.
Just because I am in the US, it does not mean that I have turned my back on my heritage and cultural identity. And for your information, I have no problem with other people flying their flags of choice. Britain is a multicultural society, and everybody should be allowed to demonstrate their culture identity from time to time.
For your information, I am actually very tolerant of other people. Judging by yourt comments, I don't think you are very tolerant of others. Perhaps you should not be so quick to judge others!
199. At 8:49pm on 21 Jun 2010, Roxy wrote:
197. At 07:06am on 21 Jun 2010, jnhannah wrote:
I am British ex-pat living in the US.
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Why are you an 'expat' flying the england flag? Why aren't you adopting the way of life of the country you have chosen to emigrate to? You are quick enough to tell immigrants who come to the UK to learn the language, live the way 'we' live just because they are in YOUR country, they should support the country's football team blah blah blah.
So Mr Expat.....why do you English STILL fly the english flag and support the england football team as expats in another country?
You would not tolerate anyone putting up their own flag in england when the world cup takes place especially when that team beats england!!!
"It is my personal believe that modern society has moved on. Times have changed. I don't believe that flying one's chosen flag is stating that any one country is better than another."
-----------
You are having a laugh with the above statement, modern society has become incredibly racist and tribal in that flying a flag determines that a particular country is better than another. What planet do you live on mate?
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I love Stalin's definition of a nation, but then again I'm a rabid, celtic communist!
I believe that England's problem is that so few English people actually know what it is to be English. The Scots, Welsh and Irish (and the French, Americans etc.) are taught history and culture in schools. They have an appreciation of national identity that goes beyond 'two world wars and one world cup'. The education system's desire for multiculturalism has dissolved Englishness into 90 minute xenophobia. I am eternally grateful that the drunken youths in Benidorm no longer wear union flag shorts!
The English need to recapture their identity and culture, after that they can reclaim the flag.
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I'm a proud Scotsman. I tend not to get annoyed with English people but the media has alot to answer for, particularly when it comes to sensationlism. England are ranked in the 10 ten footbaaling nations and so would always make the last 8 and with a bit of luck in the draw the last 4 or even last 2. You are worthy of it.....But the media whips the country into a frenzy and the arrogance of not taking into account the other Nations !!!
A question to all English football fans how many of your Team would make it into the 1st 11 of Brazil, Argentina, or Spain, maybe 2 or 3 at most. How many of their players would you have in your team ? With 2 or 3 world class players you dont win the world cup.
Scotland is a great nation and our contribution to humanity is massive, the Telephone, TV, Penecilin, pnuematic tyre, etc etc
However we only becmane this inventive nation when we stopped fighting with the English, and like wise you only started to dominate the world when you were able to stop looking over your shoulder at us. We are great together The big brother and the smarter wee brother who would fight with anyone at the side of his big brother.
But please remember the following when it comes to English Nationalism
1. Queen Elizabeth is a lovely woman but she is Queen Elizabeth the 1st of Britan not the 2nd (good queen bess came before James and the Union)
2. Richard the Lion Heart was French
3. Most English people have Anglo Saxon routes so you are really of German decent, thru the Danish invasions and then the Norman invasion.
There is more that we have in common than separates us, when the chips are down we have always stood together.
Lets acknowledge we are different and enjoy our differences
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202. At 04:01am on 22 Jun 2010, jnhannah wrote:
Roxy,
Your response was amazing. In fact I have integrated into the country I moved to due to my job. I have a family, a home, dogs and am fully integrated into society here. Just because I live in the US, it does not mean that I have to reject the UK and the way of life in the UK. It doesn't mean that I still can't support my national team. You should not jump to conclusions.
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Why should you support the UK way of life when you no longer live in the UK? People like you are quick enough to tell foreigners who come to the UK to learn the language and to integrate into British society and to leave their ways in their own country why don't you?
Just because I am in the US, it does not mean that I have turned my back on my heritage and cultural identity. And for your information, I have no problem with other people flying their flags of choice. Britain is a multicultural society, and everybody should be allowed to demonstrate their culture identity from time to time.
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You SHOULD turn your back on your heritage just as ethnics are told they should, how many ethnics get to fly their flags without being penalised for it and told they are now in england so fly the english flag. Why should anyone be allowed to demonstrate their culture from time to time? Why not ALL they time just as you are doing as always flying the english flag in another country? If you like england so much what are you doing in the US??? Forget your job and go back home!
For your information, I am actually very tolerant of other people. Judging by yourt comments, I don't think you are very tolerant of others. Perhaps you should not be so quick to judge others!
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I am by far tolerant of everyone but I see alot of racism especially from the indigenous of england who do not like foreigners displaying their flags, speaking their own language, practising their own culture so why are you doing it? I am glad my answer is amazing as I said talk about POT KETTLE BLACK!!!
When people like you integrate into other countries and stop backing england even when you are no longer living in the UK then you can tell foreigners to do the same!
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Why is there a Lion at the top of this article? Lions come from Africa I thought the english didn't like foreigners of ANY sort here????? The Cheek!
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Roxy, we love you and agree with everything you say. I too will be waving my St. George's Flag as a well integrated ex-pat in the USA. Americans are just so damn cool about tolerating that kind of thing
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i find some of these posts to be shallow.......as an expat living in the states i am ashamed of my old country when it comes to its patriotism or flag flying call it what you will......it seems to me that they only get patriotic when attached to some sporting event.......why is it that national flags are not flying during 'quite' times.......as a visitor to the old country i am smacked at the rarity of our flag flying countrymen.....whatever your nationality....be proud of it and display it always.....everywhere you go in the states you see the stars and strips flying proudly.......lessons to be learned maybe ??
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207 - I hope the americans take your flag down!
I think anyone of all countries who come to the UK can live the way they want and there is no need for them to integrate into British society anymore than the english do abroad and I say allow the muslims to fly their flag too!
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If I want to fly my flag, I will fly my flag and there's nothing anyone can do about it. I don't care if everyone in a room hates me for it and calls me racist and unacceptable. Its nonsense that the St.Georges flag should even be seen this way. I am not racist, not a BNP follower and never will be, I love the fact the we are part of the EU which gives us the option of now living in such places as Spain etc, having closer integration and making friends from far and wide, but still I always will fly my national flag of birth. And if someones thinks it unacceptable for me to do so, then I will simply hold my flag even higher!
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"3. Most English people have Anglo Saxon routes so you are really of German decent, thru the Danish invasions and then the Norman invasion"
That's what they used to think, but recent genetic evidence suggests that infact, the vast majority of English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh share the same genetic origins. Invasions by the Romans, Normans, Germanic Tribes, Celts and Danes made a relatively small impact it would appear.
People across the UK overwhelmingly stem from a common ancestor.
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I'd suggest reading Elie Kedourie's text, 'Nationalism', before making such pronunciations. In the early stages the nation was seen as the collected lords, ladies, the monarch and other senior individuals. Kant came out with his 'principle of self determination', now enshrined in the UN, and nationalism has damn all to do with 'racism', unless you want it to. That is the problem; the perceptions of politically correct twits who evidently wish upon us their preferences.
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"English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh share the same genetic origins. Invasions by the Romans, Normans, Germanic Tribes, Celts and Danes made a relatively small impact it would appear." - MagicIEvol
I think you may find that is because we are all decended from the same early european people. This link probably predates the tribal identities you mention. The Germanic tribes made a huge impact, which is why we are not writing this link in Welsh.
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204. At 11:29am on 22 Jun 2010, Graeme wrote:
"However we only becmane this inventive nation when we stopped fighting with the English, and like wise you only started to dominate the world when you were able to stop looking over your shoulder at us."
I'm sorry but this is sheer monstrous twaddle. All Europeans come from a central source of mitochondrial DNA, that's been long established. Also we on this island are so intermixed as to make a nonsense of your words; my paternal surname is very Scots in origin, from a specific area; likewise my maternal surname is very Welsh in origin, and these themes run through the island as a whole. In addition, the Saxons went to all areas of the islands - including e.g. one who went to Ireland at the request of Brian Boru, to put down opposition to him, and then settled - finally, you /personalise/ the argument, that is to say use the argumentum ad hominem; there is no "you" when it comes to referring to history, only "them", "they" and so on, our antecedents. So please stop the nonsense, be a human being, recognise the narrow limits of our shared European genetic origin and revel in the cultures of these islands before they are destroyed by silliness. Whether it was marginalisation and destruction of communities by highland clearances or the enclosures acts, Peterloo, and many other barbarities inflicted on the lower strata of societies in this country is irrelevant. Stop partitioning us.
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210 Sam Underwood - Who ever said the english flag was racist?
The problem is those who object to others living in their own little secular communities, speaking in their own language, watching their own tv channels, living in their own culture and not integrating with the indigenous, when clearly the english people are doing the very same thing abroad as I said POT KETTLE BLACK!
Either way you can raise your flag as high as you like but judging by the current number of soldiers coming back in coffins you should be raising it at half mast.
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I always considered myself British and I do support England in the World cup now as the only British team in it. However, I was born and initially raised in Wales so I am also Welsh, even though my family is English.
Whatever you feel, it's not wrong to embrace your national identity and fly whatever flag you like.
I think that we should be proud to fly our flags.
Britain has played a very important historical role in the development of the modern world and we shouldn't be ashamed of this! We should embrace our past, the good, the bad and the ugly. We should learn to never repeat the mistakes and to never forget the harm that has occurred. Why? Because by covering it up and being ashamed only holds us back as a nation. We turn to political correctness obsessions that make no sense at all.
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Englishness is a matter of identity, culture, belief, ideology etc... and not DNA.
So I can countenance a black Englishman or woman without any problem ... but I do have major concerns about those who seek to make England a nowhere land for a mix of ... everything that is not English basically. The genetic /racial dna mix is not any kind of issue for me ... I think this is purely an issue of identity and respect for England and its history, tradition and customs.
So I think I can identify someone who genuinely accepts the English identity or wishes to belong to it ... without asking them for a blood sample in a laboratory to determine if someone can identify where their ancestors may have lived ... so many hundreds or thousands of years ago.
The fact is that Englishness is a conplex matter and I think it should be treated properly at school as part of every English child's education (and effectively this is in part what happens at the most expensive private schools). Being English and what is English is, I think, to some extent a matter of education ... and should not be the domain of an elite section of the population.
What use is the teaching of 'Citizenship' for our children at school if if does not teach children something useful about their birthright to a national identity... whether it be English, Welsh, Scottish or Irish ... and whether that is different from being British ... no wonder some are or are getting very confused.
Englishness, Welshness, Scottishness or Irishness is also a matter of respect for the national identities.
Englishness needs to be taught at school. For me, Englishness also means being a Christian or as having Christian values as part of our English traditions, customs and culture. I can understand why some will disagree ... but Englishness I think demands this to be considered and I accept that atheists and those of other religions can be English without being disrespectful but I refuse to belong to a political identity vacuum 'nowhere land' as promoted by the previous Labour government ... to my mind that is ... an evil proposition.
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218. At 10:42pm on 24 Jun 2010, nautonier wrote:
Englishness is a matter of identity, culture, belief, ideology etc... and not DNA.
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Please tell me Nautonier,just how exactly "identity,culture,belief,ideology etc" can be anything other than the end products of DNA?
Change the DNA,and you change the products that "it" creates.
I look at mult-cultural non-White "paradise" London and see "Englishness" disappearing as fast as the White proportion of it`s population.
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218. At 10:42pm on 24 Jun 2010, nautonier wrote:
So I can countenance a black Englishman or woman without any problem
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Then presumably you can "countenance" there being "NO" White Englishmen at all in the future?
No problem for you eh Nautonier?
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What is English? Berwick upon Tweed to Penzance with Wales halfway down on the west.Is there a sudden transition to hating the English when the Tweed is crossed at Coldstream or the Welsh border? Fair enough use the St George flag to support England in football but it is worrying how inane nationalism creeps in with flags.I'm a northerner and feel far more allegiance to that region than say Kent which is a distant outpost.There is no such thing as pure English,we are British and have been for years.Fly the flag for fun but don't take it too seriously!
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219. At 00:24am on 25 Jun 2010, BiiBoidshateu wrote:
218. At 10:42pm on 24 Jun 2010, nautonier wrote:
Englishness is a matter of identity, culture, belief, ideology etc... and not DNA.
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Please tell me Nautonier,just how exactly "identity,culture,belief,ideology etc" can be anything other than the end products of DNA?
Change the DNA,and you change the products that "it" creates.
I look at mult-cultural non-White "paradise" London and see "Englishness" disappearing as fast as the White proportion of it`s population.
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The mass immigration issue, is another issue. The important thing is that those who call themselves English demand respect for England from our politicians and institutions in everything that is done in England:
law
immigration
education and history
English heritage
keeping England a country with Christian values
language
etc
There is a lot that can be done to keep England ... English.
But most important ... it is down to us, the English, we have to do this ... no one else will do this for us ... otherwise England will continue to become 'nowhere land'. We face a global onslaught and we have to defend our Englishness ... we need a St George's day national holiday and a St George's National English monument and a law promoting and preventing misuse of the English and national flags like waht other countries have such as e.g. the USA and prevent the extremists from ruining what is left of being English.
I do not have a problem with other people of other cultures and nationalities coing to England /the UK so long as it is properly regulated by the government and the practice does not create anti English ghettoes ... and if no ones is required to have respect for England and 'Englishness' ... then no one will have respect for e.g. 'Englishness', 'Welshness', 'Irishness', 'Scottishness'. It's no use complaining about foreigners being here ... its too late for the those given British passports ... but I think that we can and should insist on preserving the English identity as our politicians are keen to do away with it for their own convenience.
We need English/British gardens, schools, cafe's, restaurants, castles, playing fields, art galleries, farms, monuments, blue plaques, english history etc ... the richest and best history and culture in the world.
Its our responsibility!
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