Thinking cap
So, that deep red line - the immigration cap - is scored into today's "The Coalition: Our Programme for Government" [475KB PDF] document:
The next sentence is the interesting one, though:
It is the "mechanism" that is going to be the really tricky bit.
At the moment, the only non-EU economic migrants admitted into the UK are those with enormous wealth, enormous brains or with specific skills in areas where Britain has an identified shortage.
How will the mechanism prevent the cap damaging the national interest? There are already warnings that stopping people coming to the UK who have skills or investment we need would undermine another of the coalition's stated aims:
As revealed on this blog, official data show that the number of non-EU economic migrants employed in the UK is falling - down 76,000 last year compared with the year before. Some sectors of the economy are already complaining that they cannot fill key vacancies.
The cap could only apply to Tier 1 and Tier 2 of the existing points-based system, since those are the only two categories under which migrant workers from outside the EU can come to the UK.
Tier 1 is for "Highly skilled workers, investors and entrepreneurs". It is hard to imagine that these are the kind of immigrants the UK would want to ban.
Tier 2 covers "Sponsored skilled workers", mostly defined as "people coming to the UK with a skilled job offer to fill a gap in the workforce that cannot be filled by a settled worker". Again, it is difficult to conceive how, in the short-term, stopping these individuals would be good for Britain.
The Migration Advisory Committee (MAC) was set up to offer "independent, transparent and evidence-based advice to government on labour market shortages that can sensibly be filled by migration". Only non-EU workers with a job and the right skills in a sector identified by the committee are allowed in.
Some British business leaders are already fuming that the MAC has not agreed to put their sectors on the list of skill shortages which would allow them to bring talent in from overseas. The suggestion that we need a cap seems to imply that the government believes the committee has not been tough enough.
So it is going to be interesting to see how the cap "mechanism" might work: set the limit high and there's no point in having it; set it low and Britain deprives itself of workers which benefit the UK. The thinking cap will be worn.
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~58~RS~)
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Just like this government and the last, you seem to have a blind spot for the immigrants from eu countries. That needs to be tackled with urgency.
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The problem, as you correctly imply, is not controlling immigration under the points based entry system, it's controlling illegal immigrants and economic migrants from Europe (EEA).
Unfortunately the Government seem powerless to act on the latter two issues and until now have been playing a dangerous game with the legitimate and valuable applicants for whom we should be bending over backwards to attract.
I had rather hoped that in a post election climate, the political parties would stop looking for "election winning" immigration headlines, and tackle the issues that lay at the heart of this conundrum.
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@#1 caledonian comment
My guess is that you're getting those who have been granted asylum or simply british ethnic minorities, mixed up with economic migrants.
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KennethM
As far as I understand, freedom of movement is allowed accross the EU and we could only be exempt if we left the EU and, in my opnion, that would be catastrophic for the UK on a number of counts, including economically and diplomatically.
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This policy statement does not even mention the non-EU immigrants who reside in Britain because they are the family of either an economic migrant or an asylum seeker who has been granted leave to remain in Britain.These family members who are claimed for as dependents are not included in the figures,why not?The number of non-EU foreign nationals in Britain who are economically inactive has risen exponentially for decades. This is a hidden strata of population who,for the most part,do not make any attempt to integrate into mainstream British society(I've worked with many in this situation),they tend to shop in shops owned,or at least run,by people from their own culture/country,they tend to associate with only their own,in this kind of society within a society,there is little incentive to learn good English or to mix in any way with indigenous people.Marriages tend to be in their,or their parents,country of origin and the new immigrant coming straight from the homeland will invariably reinforce non-British cultural values and ideas.If any of the non-EU immigrant numbers should be capped,it should be these predominantly economically inactive,non-English-speaking family members of those granted leave to stay,who are a huge drain on the welfare budget.Discouraging this unwanted drain on the welfare,Health and Educational budgets,would encourage those granted leave to stay to realise that they can no longer treat Britain as a cash-cow for their unemployed progeny and relatives.The subsequent release of pressure on the welfare budget,housing,education,health-care and council services as well as the astronomical expenditure on translators would be a welcome change to the increasing overburdening of the infrastructure of our country.Why do we pay to sustain economically inactive,non-British,non-EU peoples,who cannot speak English and do not have the slightest intention of integrating,who have full access to and use of free education,free health care,welfare,housing and the full breadth of social services? Why do we do this? Have we a duty of care for these people? No,so why DO we do it? Multiculturalism is not a reflection of our humanist principles,it is a deliberate adulteration of ALL ethnicity.The immigrants were supposed to integrate enough to lose the more exotic or extreme aspects of their culture,we were supposed to adopt as much of immigrant culture as they were of ours,it did not work out like that.We seem to be heading towards the new Babel,the new EU parliament building has even been deliberately designed to look like the King James bible-picture of the tower of Babel,look it up if you don't believe me,its weird how the two look almost identical.Are they trying to tell us something without actually coming out and saying it? We live in a very strange and irrational world,sense is not so common,weirdness is.
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2....Kenneth M....Those from the EU are migrants,from outside the EU they are immigrants.The EU migrants,for the most part,are of the same broad cultural base,most speak English and THEY ALL WORK AND PAY TAX.The same can rarely be said for the non-EU immigrants families and relatives,most of whom are claimed for as dependents,thereby existing as a drain on the states resources.The EU migrants are not a problem to us at all,except insofar as they are exploited by unscrupulous employers in Britain,who use them to drive wages down,this is not the fault of the EU migrants but of the regulatory bodies in Britain who let British employers get away with contravening EU,and British,employment laws.I hope that this clarifies the situation.
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we can't do anything about EU immigration whilst a member of the EU - that's why you have not said anything about it. i am in agreement with you on the inherent problems in capping non-EU. if a blogger thinks you can tell if someone is EU or non EU, let alone a migrant, by walking around a city centre, i despair. america is already suffering from some of the problems we may be creating if we tighten caps on tier 1 and 2 migrants - employers find it so difficult to negotiate the system for desperately required skills that foreign workers have that they just don't try. compare this with the far more publicised issue of mexican migrants (not quite our polish plumbers but maybe our care workers) who try to stay under the radar and by and large do jobs that americans don't want to do. various amnesties have not discouraged this movement of labour. i worry that political rhetoric will win more votes than the harm to our economy that will be less obvious to voters.there is much can be done ensuring that student (and other) visa holders leave on expiration of visa.
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You are entirely right about the difficulties arising from the promise to put a cap on the admission of economic migrants. It is basically impractical if migrants from EU countries are not included, as they cannot be.
All parties are responsible for this silly promise to cap migrants. I have heard this promise made by many politicians on the "Question Time" panel over the past several months, but the fact we cannot prevent EU migrants coming to the UK was always made sotto voce.
The fact is no politician wants to stress the EU point because it would lead many people to the conclusion that we should leave the EU. I would oppose doing that, but maybe we need to accept that is where the proposed cap would ultimately lead us. We could then leave the EU despite all the economic problems that would entail. At least we would then have a well informed and thorough discussion of the issues.
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Has The Coalition Government got the right problem?
The Migration Advisory Committee's last report says that only 17% of work permit holders actually settle.
There are 308 foreign-owned companies in the UK 800 (one has value added large enough to put it into the top 30).
How will The Coalition Government tell potential investors that "Yes, we want your capital. Please come and create local jobs and investment, but don't bring your managers or any of your own people?"
Foreigners aren't taking up new jobs at the expense of locals — a contemporary myth. In London alone, about 17% of jobs are created by new foreign investors.
Non-EU people don't have access to benefits or pensions or housing. They don't get any money back on the National Insurance they pay when they leave the country. Most are net contributors to the UK economy.
However, there are about 600,000 illegal aliens floating around the system; nobody knows exactly where.
And then there are situations like this one: A convicted paedophile couldn't be deported to Pakistan because his ‘right' to a family life in England would be violated. He won his case.
The trouble isn't with immigration, Tier 1 or Tier 2. Britain desperately needs foreign talent, skills, money, & entrepreneurship to survive while recession-hit employers don't need more immigration barriers to skilled workers.
What we need is for The Coalition Government to pick the right Immigration problem(s).
I'd suggest they start with illegal aliens and the status of persons convicted of crimes against society (like paedophilia).
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People complain that workers from the EU are taking away jobs from "British workers", without ever saying *why* British employers are choosing foreign-born workers. After all, they have to pay the same taxes and live in the same places, so the costs to both employer and employee are the same.
Could it be that maybe these foreign-born workers are better at their jobs, or are willing to work for lower pay? What's wrong with British workers that the are unable to compete?
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I think the trouble is that the rules mentioned above are there, they're sensible and should have worked. Unfortunately there are a lot of people that have found ways around those rules, bring in any more rules and they will find ways around them.
All they need to do is actually inforce the present rules.
Make sure students go home after their visa ends.
Make sure workers go home after their visa ends.
Stop the practice of giving one worker a visa and them bringing spouse, children, parents, other relitives in with them.
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Would KennethM or anyone else advocating a limit on EU workers care to explain how they would handle the sudden return of the large numbers of British citizens who would presumably be required to leave other EU countires as part of any such deal. There really are a lot of us (possibly up to 1 million?)
Any scenario that sees EU workers leaving the UK sees British citizens returning. Certainly if I lost my right to work in France I would expect the UK gvt to compensate me for loss of earnings, provide full UK pension entitlement, educate my children, provide me with a house etc etc etc. There would be a lot of us and I imagine we'd all be pretty fed up. I have not seen anyone address this question.
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Tier 2 covers "Sponsored skilled workers", mostly defined as "people coming to the UK with a skilled job offer to fill a gap in the workforce that cannot be filled by a settled worker". Again, it is difficult to conceive how, in the short-term, stopping these individuals would be good for Britain.
Actually Tier 2 is used to suppress market forces by allowing large IT companies to offer jobs at non competetive rates - claim they can not fill them and then bring in cheap foreign labour at rates that then depress the capacity of the home market to compete. There is no test of competence - a degree may be required, but in many countries this is more indicative of financial capacity, rather than intellectual rigour or competence.
The success of these tactics can been seen in the vast number of Government IT projects that are delivered on time and on or under budget.
Still - plenty more failures in the pipeline - No?
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So, happily, this does not prevent a non-EU citizen whom a British citizen has married, or who is their child, from living with them in the UK.
I had always been mystified as to how this Tory "immigration cap" policy was going to avoid:
(1) the ill-treatment of families and couples by denying entry to spouses and children of British citizens; and
(2) the lunacy of forcing British businesses and Universities to make sub-optimal job appointments.
Remind me. What good is this policy actually going to do?
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Many thousands of non-EU nationals arrive in Britain as a result of arranged marriages to people who already have the right to live here. This should be stopped. Many will argue that it is impossible to establish whether a marriage has been arranged or is a genuine love-match. However, the Australian authorities have been able to do this by asking partners questions about each other and such means as checking passports to see if they have travelled together in the past.
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I have just returned home from a trip to Huntingdon in Cambridgeshire.
Whilst there I heard every other voice in the street talking any other language than English and not one of the foreigners looked to me as though they were of "enormous wealth, enormous brains or with specific skills". I think that Mr Easton speaks with forked tongue!
I think that the merits of large scale immigration are like beauty - very much something that depends upon the eye of the beholder. To a born and bred Englishman, having to rub shoulders with the mass of immigrants now present within the UK, unconstrained immigration does not feel, taste, touch or even look very beautiful.
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The problem with immigration is that the movement of people is as unstoppable as market forces or osmosis. As long as there is cheap air travel and Britain is a better place to live people will move here from other countries. This has been the case for the last 2,500 years and there is no reason to think that it will stop now. The best immigration control would be to dramatically increase the cost and inconvenience of travelling to the UK.
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Mr Easton is partially true.
Based on the UK Border Agency's Tier 1 system, you need to collect enough points to be granted a 2 year visa to come to the UK.
To gain that, you either need:
A Ph.D (which gives you 50 points)
OR
A Masters Degree + earning £30,000 per year. (Not having £30,000 in your bank account, earning £30,000 per year, using payslips as proof)
And speak good English, by sitting an International English exam.
As for the specific skills, you don't earn points if your skill is on the shortage list.
Also, an interesting statistic, according to the ONS, net migration from OUTSIDE the EU in 2009 was -8000 (as in for every 1 migrant coming into the UK, 8000 migrants are leaving). It's not non-EU migration the government has to worry about, it's the people coming from within the EU. Oh, we are in the European Union, which means we can't do anything about it.
Finally, one last point, while it is nice to say there are 60,000 illegal immigrants in the UK at this point. No one really knows. They are by definition, illegal, which means no one is able to count them. If someone/the government is able to count them, I would seriously be worried cause they know where these people are but are not doing anything about it.
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"the only non-EU economic migrants admitted into the UK are those with enormous wealth, enormous brains or with specific skills in areas where Britain has an identified shortage."
That would explain the large numbers of Somalian unlicensed minicab drivers in my area then. Someone needs to leave their ivory tower and spend some time walking our streets, methinks.
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I cannot comprehend how financially advantageous it is to allow a worker from a non-eu contry to take a job here then allow dependant chilren, wife, mother/father/grandmother etc. to join them on the grounds of dependance! The economic value of all but (hard hat on here HSE rules) the highest paid bankers must be outweighed by the welfare benefits the dependants are entitled to claim, not to mention school/housing/and NHS costs. Surely if there exists a shortage of say IT workers, as mentioned above, employers should be given the option of supporting locally enrolled trainees, financial incentives to do it themselves, or do without. Allowing cop outs should not be the way out.
Being an immigrant myself I can understand how Menedemus #17 feels. I visit the local village or the nearest large town and feel surrounded by a foreign tongue. I even spent several years learning it but still wallow in a misunderstood world. At least the locals know me, and being the token English excentric in Wales can be fun!
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tom_p_willis @ 11.
Yes, most foreign workers are willing to work for a lot less. At my last company, we had foreign workers who were still earning 3 times what they would be earning back home, even though they were earning up to half what a British employee would need. Their intention was to save up enough then return home to buy a house for cash. Others live cheaply here and send money home to their families.
Employers love foreign workers because they cost so much less. Let's face it, if you had a choice between 2 potential employees, both with the same skills, and one will work for £20k and the other won't work for less than £35k, which would you give the job to? Yet the British worker might have a mortgage, a spouse and kids, a car etc, all stuff that practically forces him or her to earn a certain wage, while the foreign worker might be single and live in rented shared accommodation and have much less expenses. British workers simply cannot compete: we're just being priced out of the workplace. The only way this will change is if every country's economy is the same, and that won't ever happen.
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Sorry, what jobs are these that GENUINELY can not be filled by a UK resident?
There is a difference between can 'not be filled' and 'can not be filled at a lower wage'
I would also like to see a crack down on the scam where the same globalised corporations bring someone from (eg) India 'temporarily' then send them back and immediately replace them with another 'temporary' worker. Obviously all of them working at a lower wage than UK market levels and none of them counting on your stats as 'migrants'
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Yes Mark, & the CBI have been making noises to the Government about the possible shortage of skilled labour in the near future, but no sympathy here I’m afraid.
What we need is an increase in the number of training places & facilities for young people, but instead I’ll bet that the youth unemployment levels will continue to rise & skilled immigration will continue to rise also.
This is because big business wants to cut corners & just doesn’t have the commitment to the local communities or the UK that they had when I went into Industry 30 years ago.
Strange that the very people who criticize the Government for red tape & regulations seem to be the same ones that expect favours and answers to their own failings – in this case failing to recruit & train enough of the next generation of skilled workers within the UK.
The Government response should be blunt – “If you aren’t part of the solution, then you are part of the problem – your lack of foresight is not our problem”.
However, like Labour, I suspect that the Coalition will simply suck up & raise the immigration bar to suit this problem; therefore the likes of the CBI will effectively dictate the UK Government’s immigration policy.
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What we need is a cap on TOTAL immigration. The glaring anomaly here is the fact that we have no control over immigration from the EU - skilled or otherwise. It is outrageous that we offer this open door when it might prevent us from admitting people from outside the EU with key skills. This, more than anything else, is a reason to pull out of the EU altogether. Soon. Please.
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There is a reason for the lack of policy for immagration from other EU countries in this and the last government (KennethM and the like) It is that you can't stop them under EU law.
It's call freedom of travel. I could move to another country in Europe tomorrow if I wanted, and others can move here, it's that simple.
The only way to stop it is to leave the EU.
And despite the Tories also wanting out of the Human rights act, also only do-able by leaving the EU, it's not somthing any one on the Tory part frontbench has suggested, or look likely to suggest.
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Working on the exit strategy.
UK immigration policy discriminates against native English speakers ... instead, you have Eastern European shop-girls and handymen running around with completely incomprehensible accents. But, those people are OK since they're European.
Both my parents are British subjects by birth, the Queen is Queen of Canada, and my country sacrificed tens of thousands of young men so that you could speak English today instead of German. But, it seems that Commonwealth citizens are considered riff raff today.
I have four university degrees, including a doctorate, from top universities in Canada, the US, and UK, and have published an academic text, so I would venture to say that my command of the English language is superior to the majority of the native population here .... but I still had to prove that I could speak English to your officialdom.
Now that I am here, I find that I am a high-rate taxpayer, I pay into National Insurance etc... schemes that I have zero recourse to -- in other words, I am subsidizing native layabouts. I am also young, single and healthy, and have used the NHS twice in 2 years, so am am subsidizing that too. But, it seems that the vast majority of the natives want me out. FINE. I will go and take my taxes with me...
Having been educated in multiple countries, what I see is that the UK's education system is shoddy and is no longer capable of producing students with the skills to compete in the 21st century. Your citizens have yet to come to the realization that the most dynamic parts of the world, BRING IN people, ideas, and connections from everywhere. That will be your loss. In fact, other countries are succeeding in taking away YOUR best talent because they offer more attractive working environments.
The locals also shouldn't be such hypocrites about illegal immigration -- you EXPORTED your criminals to Australia, and arrived uninvited to India, Singapore, Hong Kong and other places in order to disrupt their societies and boss people around.
So... good bye and have fun trying to pay off your massive debts while your economy stagnates.
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Rabbitkiller and Laughing devil.
The problem with leaving the EU is that UK-PLC would go bust immediately. All our major trading markets would be cut off, so foregt it, it ain't gonna happen.
What we need to do, is get the EU to be serious about immigration into it from Africa and Asia, that is where it needs to be stopped. We also need the UK to get serious about slinging out the illegals that are here.
For that to happen, there has to be a fundemental review of the Human Rights Act and the outdated charter upon which it is based. To achieve that, the UK has to be at the centre of the EU making the rest see that the Human Rights Act in its current form, and interpretation, is just wrong and has to be changed to suit a modern World with the pressures of economic migrants lying and claiming political asylum to get in.
If you leave the EU, that will never happen.
As much as I dislke the EU (I only wanted the EEC or EFTA), this country cannot leave it and must work to make it work.
Just be thankful that we never joined the discredited currency, the Euro!!
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#7 - what a joke. A EU migrant vs non EU immigrant...
HUh a Romanian/Bulgarian speaks better english than a Indian or South African or an Aussie or a Kiwi or a Canadian or an American?
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@27 wendy is spot on. Sad that the UK panders to blue collar work force or those who can't speak english(usign EU as a prextext come to the UK).
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There seem to be myriads of people complaining about migration from EEA countries. Personally I am glad I have the right to move to any country within Europe, and I dont want that taken away. A lot of the migrants from Poland and Czech are returning now, so this point is rapidly becoming moot. The reason why we cant conrol immigration by physically stopping people is that it is illegal. Its as simple as that. There are a hell of a lot of Brits who have moved to Europe, and they aren't just pensioners etc.. They benefit from the freedonm of movement, so why not people who come here? There may be a case for stopping economic migration within Europe, and retricting welfare benefits unless people have had a job for a while, but otherwise, I just dont see what people are moaning about.
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31. At 10:15pm on 20 May 2010, jules wrote:
A lot of the migrants from Poland and Czech are returning now, so this point is rapidly becoming moot.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good point, my Polish friend has just returned to Poland because the collapse in the Sterling / Euro exchange rate has made things less lucrative for him here.
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NuLabour opened the border doors, immigrants - from the EU and from outside the EU - flooded in, with NuLabour less than honest about the numbers to cover up their actions which were in all probability done to force down wages without upsetting the unions too much.
The Conservatives - with their Liberal Democrats coalition - are now fudging the issue after the pre-election hype that they would close the floodgates, maybe employers like the ease of filling low paid jobs with economic migrants.
The perception in the publics mind is that we are being overrun, it is more than likely it is an eroneous perception, but the subject will not go away if it swept under the carpet.
If it low wages, unsociable working hours and poor conditions make it hard to find British citizens to do some jobs, then the conditions need to changed, not opening the door to those so desperate they will work for less then the legal minimum or work for excessive hours.
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I have been following this issue of Immigration for a past few months. I want to ask a Question to the Prime Minister. I am a legal Immigrant in this country as a student. I have paid fees in excess of 15000 pounds to the a UK University. What benefit am I getting in return for this. Forget the illegal immigration, I accept its a problem & should be tackled,but in doing so we the legal immigrants are facing the brunt.
I guess I have contributed equal amount of monetary fund to the UK economy what a citizen of this country pays for taxes.So shouldn't we international students get some benefits out of this immigration system.
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Mark,
This whole lack of skill set theory is completely wrong. In the last IT projects i was working with 70-80% employees who where brough in UK from a specific country. Most of the positions held could have been easily filled by a UK graduate.
It is quite bad for the future, that instead of hiring graduates and teaching them we are renting skills from abroad. And in many cases, these people did not even have the skills!!!!!!
Cannot understand why this is happenning but hope there are restrictions in place soon. Because soon, there will be no skills left in UK.
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The question should not be about a cap. Quality and not the quantity of immigrants/migrants is the issue here. Number 7 Aristotle perhaps does not know that UK's richest man is an Indian immigrant. He chooses to employ people here. It is of mutual benefit for both.
I am a tier 1 migrant and I routinely pay more tax (in terms of different types of levies, not income tax) than native workers and regularly subsidise the Treasury by thousands of pounds every year. And, dare I say, I probably would earn more in my own country. But personally speaking, earning is not the only, or even the most important issue here. Stability of life and career, freedom and values this country offers are equally important for me.
I also sincerely believe, if this country turns itself away from the most dynamic people then this country loses far more than the migrants themselves. However, I guess what I say will not attract many votes!
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The immigration policy over the past decades seems to have been formulated with no forward planning, no detailed assessments, nothing. I’ve just read an article by an Australian climate change expert regarding future population growth and immigration in Australia. He suggests an independent board of population experts should be set up to assess future population growth and set targets independently. He says an essential question needs to be answered – what population size is in the best interest of the nation? No one has answered the population question satisfactorily , and you can’t formulate a policy based on a stab in the dark. These views seem very relevant to the UK situation too. We should have a board that is carrying out population assessments, reviewing the capacity of our infrastructure and resources, housing, employment, etc., and looking into every aspect in detail. There should also be a referendum on immigration at some stage, as the public have never been consulted, and immigration causes major changes in society which affect everybody.
Regarding EU immigration to the UK, I currently live abroad and its hard to get the facts on the issue. Can EU immigrants claim benefits as soon as they arrive in the UK, such as unemployment, child and housing benefit? Can a family or single parent from the EU apply for a house and take preference over, for example, a single British person on the housing waiting list?
I have worked in the Netherlands in the past. They had a very clear policy for EU immigrants. As a single British citizen arriving with no job, I was not entitled to any benefits. A person had to pay taxes,etc., for a certain length of time before they were entitled to benefits. That was the standard policy. This was a few years ago, but I don’t think it has changed. I found a job on a temporary contract basis. My passport then had to have a residence stamp from the Aliens Police department, which was for the length of my work contract. I was told by the department that being able to remain in the Netherlands was dependent on my having a job, and reporting to the Aliens Police to renew my residence stamp each time my contract was renewed. Obviously, had my employment been permanent and not on a contract basis, the rules may have been different. But its clear to see, they had strict regulations for EU citizens on temporary or contract work.
As far as housing is concerned, I doubt that EU or non-EU citizens with families would receive preference in the Netherlands. According to a Dutch friend, the main criteria is the length of time you have been registered on the waiting list for accommodation. He is single, employed, and has been on the housing waiting list for about 5 years. He recently got a nice apartment. I asked him if families and single mothers, Dutch or from overseas, received preference. He said no. It took time, but he reached the top of the queue and was offered various apartments to choose from. It seems a fair system that takes into account the length of time he has been waiting. Single mothers do not get preference and have to join the queue like everyone else. This may be one of the reasons why the Netherlands has a very low rate of teenage pregnancies and young single mothers generally.
The Netherlands obviously has some sensible policies regarding EU immigrants, and a fair housing policy. No-one complains about it, everyone accepts it, so why can’t the UK implement similar measures?
We need to know the exact policies currently in place in other countries for EU immigrants, so that we can compare regulations and entitlements. If the UK offers much more than other EU countries regarding benefits, housing, etc, the question is why? And why do we not have regulations similar to those in the Netherlands, France, etc?
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The biggest mistake that was made by the E.U. and this country was to allow free cross border in effect doing away with borders in the E.U. this has meantthe poorer countrys suffering from a mass exit of those more capable residents.This left many of those left at the mercy of getting poorer and poorer.It also meant countys like england being swamped with unskilled workers.This has had a bad effect on our job market our N.H.S. and schools and housing.What is the good of restricting non E.U. immigrants who are allready down to the skilled or rich before they are allowed a visa.When we let in not only those from the E.U. but bogus students /illegals immigrants/and bogus asylum seekers.Forget human rights we don't have any, only those who cheat the system gets them.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
It is arguable that if New Labour had thirteen years to sort the problem of economic migrants to the UK (from wherever they came), then both the coalition parties have had the same time to consider alternatives.
So why the delay in finding a satisfactory answer to the UK's problems?
The answer is, in the main, provided via our continued membership of the EU, where bureaucrats have managed to cobble together an unworkable "freedom of movement" plan without the essentials of a common partnership - economic stability and equality - amongst member states. With the common currency also showing brittle signs of decay, the EU is clearly not a reliable place to be, other than as a trading hub.
Of course we could be cynical and argue that the depressed state of the lower paid in the UK and the divisions that creates, are setting us all up for a Euro wide slave trade, where there will be constant stampede for available work. A first step on that ladder requires a totally demoralised underclass.
Enter Condem, stage right.
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Can I ask anyone here thinking non-EU immigrants coming to UK are allowed to claim benefits or work under low pay, to go and have a read at the UK Border Agency website?
As far as I'm concerned with the current system you can only come in if you are well educated with a good paid job, the job is in the skills shortage (e.g. nurses) or extremely well paid as a company transfer (company directors etc.) and you can claim absolutely no benefits whatsoever.
I'm not too sure about why people are complaining that we are allowed to work here for a couple of years after graduating (oh and we pay extra 500 pounds to apply for this visa too), bear in mind that we're not those causing you troubles, we pay full fees at university (so that local students do not have to), we pay taxes when we work and we get nothing in return. I'm happy to pay for these as that's the deal to work and live here, I stay here and I stick to the rules. Fair trade. But why are you still complaining ? I'm not coming from a developing country to steal your food here, and don't forget that there are Britons working abroad as well, a lot in where I came from too. I have been living in this country for 8 years and I hold a degree at a top UK university, I have never claimed any benefits and I pay taxes, I have no problem in the past 8 years or so. For anyone thinking that non-English people should just get out of the country, simply because you prefer chavs than us, that's fine, but take your people back from ours too. Fair trade. You can't just get the benefits from others but not to give in, same goes to being part of the EU.
I may not speak English that well, but I won't talk to English people in my first language. But I hardly see any English people going abroad and ever speak or try to speak in local languages. I appreciate that most of the English people I met were very nice and I have no problems with them, but since this country no longer wants us, which is fine, I'll take my skills and taxes to another country, and I wish you all the best.
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The drawback is that every attempt to make it tougher to immigrate legally just serves to increase the number of illegals... why go to enormous expense and effort just to be 'legal'? What actual benefit does it give the immigrant?
And as for those of you who'd like to leave the EU - well, the day the UK leaves the EU is the day that I leave the UK. Greece beckons... even if it's broke I prefer the climate and the people!
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11. At 5:15pm on 20 May 2010, tom_p_willis wrote:
People complain that workers from the EU are taking away jobsfrom "British workers", without ever saying *why* British employers are choosing foreign-born workers. After all, they have to pay the same taxes and live in the same places, so the costs to both employer and employee are the same.Could it be that maybe these foreign-born workers are better at their jobs, or are willing to work for lower pay? What's wrong with British workers that the are unable to compete?
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The costs are not the same. A British worker has to pay taxes, pay off the mortgage, and pay for a familly.
An Eastern European worker lives several workers to a house, can claim back taxes, and sends his money home where the cost of living is far lower. They can undercut the British on wages (as well as being dead easy to sack agency workers, so they don't complain) and still make a very nice living. Have you noticed these migrant workers never come from Western Europe where living costs are the same as the UK ?
You might also be interested to learn these "hard working Poles" now have a problem finding work in Poland as they are undercut by imported Chinese labour.
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The Tier system is a sham. There is no problem with skilled and middle class immigration and never has been.Its the importation of poor third world migrants (who we don't even insist have jobs) that is the issue.
One of the first thing you notice while walking through the poor immigrant areas of East London, West Yorkshire and East Lancashire is a) the rate at which they are expanding and b) the distict lack of Doctors, IT consultants, engineers, highly skilled workers, investors and entrepreneurs. In fact the vast majority of them wouldn't even reach Tier 2.
They are here purely because they know how to play the asylum system or someone decided living in a country ruled by the British Empire 70 years ago somehow makes them British.
The definition of Tier 2 - "people coming to the UK with a skilled job offer to fill a gap in the workforce that cannot be filled by a settled worker" in the real world means we "cannot fill it for the money we want to pay". There is no skill or labour shortage in this country apart for highly specialised areas.
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From what most are saying on here the simple solution to immigration would be to close borders in the E.U. again and to withdraw all british passports to those born out of this country.This would make a level playing field to all migrants.Its stupid to give passports because of our ancesters rule.As for language barriers the whole word should have a policy of when in rome do and say as the romans do.That way at least your respecting the indiginouse populations.As for asylum its stops becoming asylum when you pass over safe countries in favour of anouther.That is just que jumping and cheating.
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Wendy 27 your point of view is to say the least narrow minded please be more open minded in your outlook and not judge others by your personal point of view.Not all the population of britain are the same the majority are hard working and have been hard done by too.
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Nope, sorry the doors have to be closed and opened for those who have not earned the right to be here in the first place. We already have our hands full of indigenous non-contributors from one generation to the next! I don't think those that signed us up to the EURO experiment ever really thought about free movement of labour rights, NOT REALLY!
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It seems obvious to me that the cap has no practical value and its purpose is merely a sop to those who complain about immigration. If that is the case why are we trying to use logic to explain it.
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Most of the posters here and the mainstream media still wilfully confuse economic migrants, asylum seekers and illegal immigrants to try to make their own jingoistics points. Each of those, when genuinely categorised, are a very different group of issues and pluses and minuses to our society as a whole.
Controlling those who are willing to be classified and tiered is easy and not a problem. The real problem that people have - and I speak as a migrant myself, who came here as a child in the 70s - is those who enter the country, usually illegally or overstay their visas, with no intention of integrating or contributing but simply looking for those streets paved with gold that they were told about. They are themselves deceived, but once here the illegals have little choice but to try to make the best of a bad thing.
Implementing and enforcing existing laws and international treaties would go a long way to solving the countries problems but at the expense of those individuals and families that would have to be deported to somewhere. Now we have to choose where is the acceptable dividing line for that ...
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1) anyone who comes here for an education should not think that that gives them an automatic right to other things such as residency or work.
2)tier 1 & tier 2 system is a joke and been completely abused espeically in the IT area - ask any British IT worker
3)coming to the UK should not be about seeking asylum or better standard of living alone. this IS the best country in the world and one of the reasons is because its people are so tolerant. please lets not abuse that.
4)anyone thinking of coming to the UK should seriously think about integration ...the UK is not multicultural...far from it..its made of of lots of segragated communities.
5)any profession that CAN BE filled by a british worker should be OFF any list of acceptable immigration criteria
6)the future for our graduates needs to be protected...any profession that they can do should also be exempt from influx of immigrants
7)controlled immigration has its benefits...but that MUST BE CONTROLLED....if there is no need for the good of this land then please consider that...after all you would never see India bringing in thousands of foreign workers effectively displacing their own workers...i guarantee you it would never happen so why do we cheapen Britain by allowing that here?
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"That would explain the large numbers of Somalian unlicensed minicab drivers in my area then. Someone needs to leave their ivory tower and spend some time walking our streets, methinks."
Do you really belive that the Somalian's driving unlicensed minicabs are on Tier 1 and Tier 2 Visa's? I think this policy is going to hurt the UK but not for another 5 - 10 years.
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Very soon countries have to look at catering to a specific strate of the world population called transnational(internations was formed just by people who think along the same lines). Similar to transnational companies these are people who are very highly qualified can adapt & work in many parts of the world. They want to experience and contribute to the economy of the country.
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What the UK really needs are stricter border controls so that illegal immigration can be prevented. As the tier 1 and 2 system has already limited the immigration to highly skilled one from outside the EU, a cap would not do any benefit. Also the govt needs to get more people working who are just sitting on benefits for years, so that low skilled jobs can be filled by them rather than using low skilled migrants from within the EU. This there would be less low skilled non british workers which benefit the economy.
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hmmm. lets see do you think that the subcontinent countries such as India or China will accept british workers as part of a transnational exercise and tell its own people "this is transnational"????
if there is NOT a LEGITIMATE SKILLS SHORTAGE in the UK....(btw IT is NOT) and that skill can be more than pefectly satisfied within the shores of the UK by british workers then we cap that immigrant number at zero.....
infact in light of the fact that many british IT workers have been made redundant over the last year...surely we should be sending those who came in from the subcontinent on IT ICT tier visas elsewhere ...and giving our british workers a job???
where there is a genuine skills shortage and the rules are not being abused then a controlled number could be allowed.
btw...i know of some people who got into the UK on an IT ICT skills tier programme helped along by a subcontinent bank which allowed them to deposit money into an account inorder to satisfy the tier system with regards to showing funds...and then removing that sum of money once the applicant had been successful to get to the UK.
hmmm.....thats transnational for you....
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27. wendy
Wendy, Know body forced you to come to the UK & you must have known about the higher rate of tax & National Insurance etc before you made the decision to come here; if not, then you only have yourself to blame.
If you think you have had a rough ride, I don’t think you would last one week working around the world on short term contracts as I do.
This involves juggling many visa’s, documents, medical tests etc to satisfy the different authorities on my travels that I have a legal right to enter their countries & work.
Even though I am usually invited to go to these countries, know body owes me any favours – in fact quite the opposite.
In some cases I have to pay taxes to both the UK Government (who get their share anyway at 40 percent) & the host country.
If, like me you are being paid enough to have to pay the higher rate of UK income tax, then you are doing all right for yourself & should be happy to contribute to the country that made it all possible.
If not, then I can smell sour grapes & it’s only right that you return to your country of origin where you will feel more at home.
Sorry, but I can’t see anybody crying over the loss.
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barbara99 - that is not what i meant by transnational. and cheating does not count. My point of transnational being that like that of wendy.
also i have heard that indian it firms have been hiring lot of nonindians.
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@ 54 barbara99,... first thing China is not a subcontinent country.. and also the IT workers who come here are highly skilled and they would not work for any less pay than their british counterparts.. therefore either the skillset is not available inside the UK or the Universities in this country are not teaching what the IT businesses need..
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senthil ....if we in the UK have to accept transnationals then so should India and any other country. i read Wendy post...and i think she if from Canada...do you know that it can cost thousands of pounds to complete your canadian immigration paperwork....they even require medicals and the whole process can take upto 42 months, i know! so frankly i havent much time for that particular post.
btw are these indian IT firms actually bringing in foreigners into India to work in IT roles...or are are they keeping them in their country of origin.
and addh, i am sorry, i didnt wish to cause offence, but i do know that that china isnt a subcontinent country...and it was my way of hinting at the origin of the bank assisting some abusers of the ICT IT tier scheme was from which country...(clue: not China)- plse see post 54
and Inidan IT workers are being paid 1/3 of british workers...its absolutely going on ...again i say talk to any IT british worker or read the above posts..its absolutely going on....
my husband has seen it in his last 3 contracts...and not only that he, as is the case of many of his friends have been asked to train up Indian IT workers from the subcontinent (!) and the latter have been retained whilst the brit has been made redundant.
but the really important point is that we DO NEED to cap immigration....if only to keep to avoid hitting the 70 mill population figure....
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@ barbara99.. India does accept foreign people coming and working in india.. you just have to remember that the British were there in india for 200 years...
Also in recent times they have been hiring foreign people who are working in India. I worked in LG in India and all the top mgmt were Koreans.
the point really is that UK needs to cap unskilled/low skilled workers or actually stop them totally, whether they come as dependents or asylum seekers or any other way... highly skilled workers do not harm the economy or take benefits..
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It isn't such a bad idea to have more than 70 million people in this country all great nations need a critical mass in terms of population to exert sufficient control economic and military worldwide. China with what we believed to have the wrong political formula to wealth generation is now exerting tremendous control on the world scene because of it sheer population. USA a country with same political system has a population well above 300million.
On my street, there are so many unoccupied houses,the present population still cannot drive the housing market maximally. In my opinion,a healthier population in terms of number will mean a bigger local market with all sectors of the economy striving for a market share.
New immigrants should not be entitled to any financial benefits but must pay tax as a contribution to the economy. I propose a similar system as what obtains in Italy were all non-EU migrants pay 1000 pounds annually for 1 yr residency permits. ensuring that every non EU immigrant in employment or not contributes to the economy. This would generate 6billion pounds from the purported 600,000 illegal immigrants annually. This is the same amount that will be saved by the much acclaimed cuts in the budget this year.!!!
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THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM
Migrant workers from non-EU is one thing; the elephant in the room is the immigration of family/dependents from the Indian sub-continent; both from earlier waves of immigration and from future worker-migration.
I think we all understand geometric progression. A migrant worker can be encouraged to go home at the end of the contract; extended families extend and expand (geometric [?] progression), and are beyond the control of the Government or its agencies.
Can we consider this South East Asian elephant?
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yes and england has been invaded many many times...by the romans, saxons, vikings etc,.....its part of my daughters history curriculum and so i too have been learning with her that those days were particularly barbaric. however we have accepted those days and got over them.
india is bringing in foreign workers thats great to hear to ....agh...but are the workers getting all the other demands that we seem to be giving away? and is this happening on the same scale in terms of numbers?
i have friends who have lived in the middle east for 40 years,paid taxes, given allegiance and they dont have a single right...
NO foreign worker skilled or unskilled or higly skilled should be allowed into the UK if that foreign worker causes the displacment of a british worker or is of benefit to the UK (barring genuine persecution cases). thats only fair to us.
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Foreign workers in India have all the rights what skilled Migrant workers have here.... and it is really difficult to find the right British workers.. I work in a company where more than half the workforce is made up of foreign workers as we could not get any suitably skilled British ones.. even now we are trying to recruit and if you know a lot about mechanical engineering you are welcome to apply.... if not i am afraid we will have to go abroad again....
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i think it all comees back to how you feel about England, this great country, its great british people, no other country like it anywhere - when you are able to see that, you want to protect it and stop its ruin and the terribly sad thing is that at no point during these posts have those who are quite clearly here on migrant work visas expressed this.
we need to control our population numbers simply because of the strain on public services...just go to any inner city brough. we dont have the same land capacity as China and the US to whom comparisons have been made are vastly larger than us.
i will say it again, if a foreign worker causes the displacement of a uk worker that that is wholly unacceptable and should not be allowed.
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@50. barbara99
1) anyone who comes here for an education should not think that that gives them an automatic right to other things such as residency or work.
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I can assure you that we don't, I don't know who makes you believe we have automatic rights to things like residency or work. I'm not too sure what you meant by residency, perhaps part of the benefits? So no, anyone coming from outside the EU cannot claim any benefit anyway. For work, we can apply for a visa at our own cost after graduating from an UK university and providing we meet all the requirements in Tier 1 or Tier 2. Nothing comes in automatically like the people on the dole here. If you're speaking for Asylum seekers or people from the EU, I don't know what benefits they get, but if they get any, it doesn't matter whether they have completed the education or not, and they are not in the categories that the government is putting a cap on.
2)tier 1 & tier 2 system is a joke and been completely abused espeically in the IT area - ask any British IT worker
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I am under Tier 2 myself and working in the IT industry with a computer science degree. I work with mostly British workers and have a lot British friends from university in the same industry, none of us have problems that mentioned in other comments or know anyone that has abused the system, of course my circle is not big enough to represent the majority. I agree that there are people trying to abuse the system, but they wouldn't be the vast majority, I think it is an overstatement to say it is a joke and completely abused. Not to be offensive but I would suggest you to have a look at how the system work first. I think it is the politicians giving wrong messages.
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/workingintheuk/
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barbara99 - yes 42 months for an immigration is quite a lot. But even then the canadian economy is very very tiny. Service Jobs are not easy to come by(even if highly educated). Toronto is for sure over crowded with new immigrants(99% blue collar) from all over the world and hence in my opinion it is a cess pool(except the choice of restaurants).
=> same old problem of not integrating. But then if you do integrate there will be people seeing you strangely. Perhaps in another 2 generations things will even out.
And the winter is very very harsh in most of the places.
The canadian life will become very bland (places to visit for short holidays during weekends is impossible due to distance unlike for instance London) and hence after a few years most educated ones leave to other countries.
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#62 - india is bringing in foreign workers thats great to hear to ....agh...
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I would have to qualify that it is the Indian companies. They operate in a truly international mindset. But the work life will be mostly like a sweat shop for sure.
i have never worked with indian managers here in canadian firms but know a few who had the misfortune. Almost all of the indian managers will be very regimented and always want to be in micro managed control. Most of them dont practice the concept of work-life balance and hence it will in turn put undue pressure on the folks reporting to them.
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barbara99 - Austrlia would be great as they carefully select migrants(no dole to people for some years). It has got great climate too. But my problem is that i took time off to do MBA(from a top school) and hence was not working when i did that. Sadly the point system only favours folks who complete studies first and then work.
Also my take wrt to Uk they should is that they should cap EU bluecollar work force more seriously, and even more stringent cap on nonEU bluecollar workforce and then take in EU/nonEU highly educated ones(with no dole for some years for sure).ofcourse the illegals should be removed.
=> this means all of the agencies, govt parties have to do more work, EU needs to be made happy etc.,
this is why the govt took the easier approach of point system and then capping tier 1.
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#64 - ofcourse UK was great. I enjoyed visiting. But people who got in grossly misused it and create havoc in 2006. Very sad.
Certainly Uk is feeling from the effects of ruling most parts of the world (the sun was always there on some part of the world which was ruled by UK innit) and now the globalization of the whole world. For some reason every1 wants to go to UK(even if they can't/dont want to speak english - i am not talking about aged parents but those who come as primary).
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The ICT visa scheme has been a source of abuse since inception.
That's why there is already substantial evidence against it. Just read the link below if there are still doubters out there:
http://ictabuse.org/cms/index.php
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Not sure why my post No55 has been removed since most of it refers to my extensive experience of international working – fact not opinion.
Surf ice to say, that if people are unhappy working in the UK, they obviously haven’t had the experience s I have had working else ware outside of the UK.
You don’t know when you have it good & know body forces you to be here in the UK.
That goes for me & my family as well.
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of course, the more the people come, the more there is a strain on the resources... but the number of skilled people coming here is nowhere high enough to cause a strain rather it is the unskilled people, the assylum seekers, low skilled ppl from within the EU that come in great numbers and cause a strain on resources and take benefits as well .. that for sure needs to be controlled
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At the end of the day, businesses can always outsource the whole project to another country without getting people in at all or simply move their whole business away from this country. Businesses are not charities after all. If you want to compete in this fast growing world, all you need to do is equip yourself and get up to speed, not to moan at migrants and thinking things will go back to the old days.
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• 6. At 4:36pm on 20 May 2010, aristotles23 wrote:
• “This policy statement does not even mention the non-EU immigrants who reside in Britain because they are the family of either an economic migrant or an asylum seeker who has been granted leave to remain in Britain.
• These family members who are claimed for as dependents are not included in the figures, why not?
• The number of non-EU foreign nationals in Britain who are economically inactive has risen exponentially for decades. This is a hidden strata of population who, for the most part, do not make any attempt to integrate into mainstream British society”
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(1) When, oh when, will a British Government address the above issue?
• I do not know if the number of non-EU, non-‘worker’, DEPENDENT immigrants are rising exponentially, geometrically, or what. But I DO know that politicians of all types are too afraid of the issue to talk about it – and certainly are too afraid to try to unpick these specific immigration problems.
(2) If EU immigration regulations tighten (as they should), to control fluxes of economic migrants AND refugees from beyond the EU, then this MUST include individuals from the former colonies of ALL EU nations, as well as the rest of the world’s nations that fall outside this net. This includes France’s overseas Departements (ex-colonies) as well as the British Old and New Commonwealth.
• The situation is now so dire in a number of EU countries that we can no longer afford preferential entry to individuals from ex-colonies, per se. All immigrants will have to compete in skills-based entry competition.
(3) One SCAM that will need to be addressed rapidly is the practice of UK based employers preferentially employing non-UK nationals in large numbers for much lower wages. Those who know my posts on this topic are aware that both my sons (both with higher education) have been p****d-on by a very prestigious British food distribution company that certainly is aware of what it is doing.
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Many of the economic migrants could be reduced if the UK made a major push in getting our unemployed back to work.
Everyone else seems to have exported their unemployed to us.Maybe we should return the favour.
I'd like to see the return of National Service with all suitable unemployed being conscripted into the army if they cannot find a job - any job - within 6 months.
I'd also like to see Job Centres setting up small businesses and employing suitable workers from the list of unemployed.
Given that college courses are so expensive these days I'd like to see training courses for the under 25's & over 50's being provided free of charge.
We need to get everyone who can work in a job and we need to use university places to provide workers in economic shortage areas such as science, the NHS etc.All training needs to be more directly geared to employment and perhaps slightly less on personal development.
The use of economic migrants should only be considered if all our suitable people are employed and only on a temporary basis.
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after going through all of the above posts not one single arguement has convinced me other than to propose the following:
STOP ALL IMMIGRATION unless there is a justified reason which can only be dealt with individualy, case by case.
so forexample if we need 5 mechanical engineers, that company wishing for them to enter the UK applies to the home office and pays all administraion costs for themselves as well as any costs incurred by our home office in granting entry to the UK. and then makes sure when that peice of work is completed that they leave the UK. no cost should be borne to the UK taxpayer...
we dont need any more assylum seekers, we have taken more than our fair share over the past year and when assylum seekers are crossing safe countries to get to us...well its not assylum anymore, is it?
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@ 75 newshounduk
I compeltely agree that the govt needs to put all suitable people to work.. be it through community service or millitary service.. that would drastically reduce the low skilled immigrants from with in the EU... from outside the EU anyways low skilled people can't come legally as they would not qualify through the points based system...
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@77
"I completely agree that the govt needs to put all suitable people to work...be it through community service or millitary service...that would drastically reduce the skilled migrants from within EU".
how on earth can a skilled brit doing community service or millitary service reduce the numbers of skilled eu migrants?????
how about we dont take any skilled migrants from EU AND NON EU full stop.
as i said in my earlier post a company wishing to bring in skilled workers from eu or non eu has to prove its case on an indvidual basis. case by case to the home office. the cost of this would severely dampen all companies bringing in skilled workers from anywhere that undercut comparitive british workers.... ;-)
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@ barbara99
i think you conviniently missed that i said "low skilled immigrant" from within the EU... there are not enough highly skilled people in this country that is why there are highly skilled migrants.... and to let you know the home office does take up work permit application on case by case basis or at least company by company basis...
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@addh. why should anyone from the uk have to do community service or millitary service to deter skilled or unskilled workers entering the country. actually you still have to explain the logic of this.
milliatary service/community service is a way forward to assist our youth but not a means of controlling the immigation.
this country does not have the requirement for skilled, unskilled, highly skilled, semi skilled migrants from any corner of the world...in cases where companies with such a requirement they should make individual cases to the home office, foot the bill themselves (or which ever dept it would be to deal with that)..that would sovle our "how to deduce the cap" number. we start from zero and work upwards. thats the best way to work out the cap number. easy!
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75. newshounduk
Pretty much the point I was making in post 24.
This is all well & good if we have a bold Government that is willing to use the NO word to employers who are not willing to invest in training of our UK youth.
Unfortunately, the previous Government seemed only too willing to suck up to the excuse that skilled people could not be found in the UK &, therefore had to be brought in from abroad.
Meanwhile, our young people are being processed through Universities & graduating in useless degree’s that will take them many years to pay off & unemployment rates in the UK continue to rise.
Why can’t people see that this situation is just not sustainable?
Surely this needs addressing as part of the action to reduce our budget deficit; if not this lost generation of people will come back to haunt us & things can only get worse.
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Now that the Lib/Dems are experiencing Government for the first time in years I hope they take on board the grave reservations that at least 70% of the people in the country have about uncontrolled immigration....we do not need more people coming to this country to serve coffee or kebabs or drive taxis......neither do we need more suspect, ill trained doctors!!!
Last week it was reported that we annually spend 100's of million pounds on police overtime and employing agency nurses at rediculous cost......Why can't we employ MORE police on single time and TRAIN more British nurses etc etc??.....Why are we, as a nation, so useless??? Are there NO British unemployed?
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@76. barbara99 wrote:
so forexample if we need 5 mechanical engineers, that company wishing for them to enter the UK applies to the home office and pays all administraion costs for themselves as well as any costs incurred by our home office in granting entry to the UK. and then makes sure when that peice of work is completed that they leave the UK. no cost should be borne to the UK taxpayer...
________________________________
This is the case at the moment, what are you talking about, they pay taxes, fees to the government / home office. Tax payers pay nothing for this and they are actually inputting to the economy, they contribute to the public services without getting anything in return. Get over it.
I would love to see your country taking all your people back from abroad as we leave.
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@ 62. At 7:18pm on 21 May 2010, barbara99 wrote:
"i have friends who have lived in the middle east for 40 years,paid taxes, given allegiance and they dont have a single right..."
There are no tax in Middle East !!
Also anyone who is saying that Tier 1 and Tier 2 does not work & crap system please see it's guidelines and amount of evidence needed to prove and earn the points before you are given a visa to come and work in UK.
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I had a well paid Job in a Multi national company in India. I took the risk and left the Job and moved to UK under HSMP. It was no easy getting a Job in the UK, the odds were staked against me as I had to compete with the locals here. With perseverance and a bit of luck I found a Job my field ( IT ).
My wife works as well and we both pay NI and we cannot take as public funds. Does the government want to keep to put a cap on people like us who took the risks to come here, obey the laws and pay the taxes ?
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@85, i understand your predicament but we have many british IT workers with families, children, mortgages etc out of work right now and if IT workers from india are allowed in our workforce will never get back into the market place.
question is who does the british government give priority to? its own subjects or foreign workers?
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This blog is typical of the framing devices used to modify discussion of the immigration issue. There is an obvious difference between the overt immigration policy of the 1950s "Windrush" era, (in which lack of employees was identified as a problem, job fairs set up in Jamaica etc and ships chartered to bring migrants to the UK); and the last fifteen years in which the public have become increasingly confused as to why there is mass immigration from non eu countries, when Poland etc is clearly capable of providing all the low skilled labour the UK will need for the next decade. It is the de facto political and economic constitution of the UK to favour EU trade and immigrants over non EU populations. That is the entire point of the EU. It is the lack of control over family reunion that causes mass non EU migration, not the skilled migration laws. The UK now deals with US style mass immigration, with a much more burdened public sector than the US and certainly without US levels of economic growth to sustain it.
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Labour's Jack Straw, a former Home Secretary, happily agreed with Menzies Campbell on Radio 4's Any Questions the other week that there were one million illegal immigrants in the UK.
So there are probably double that million as those two politicians were not keen on controlling migration when it was possible.
Anyway four and a half million foreign workers have registered for national insurance numbers since 2002. That means they are in the country not just seeking visas.
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You have very rightly pointed out that the Tier 1 and Tier 2 migrants are the sort of people this country wants to keep. If a cap is imposed on these 2 categories the losers will be british industry and the winners will be other countries like Canada, Australia and USA who would be keen to invite these people with immense skills to thier countries.
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It is already monumentally difficult to get a visa under the points based system. I'm a native English speaker, moved here 3 years ago to get my masters degree and have been working ever since. However, because I earn less than £30k (I work for a charity), apparently all of a sudden I no longer quality for the Highly Skilled Worker visa. And who knows what this "cap on non-EU migrants" will do.
I find this shocking. It frustrates and saddens me that the tactic for dealing with immigration is to make it far more difficult for the people who you should WANT to migrate here!
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if a migrant worker comes into this country on tier 1 or 2 purely on their IT skills and we have plenty of very educated, experienced british IT workers
but out of work how is that fair on the british worker. i have no problem with highly skilled IT workers going to canada, australia etc when IT is not a skill that is in short supply in the UK.
tier 1 and tier 2 with regards to IT is just a mechanism used by corporates to get cheap IT labour into the UK to replace british IT workers.
just walk into the IT department of any bank or institution that has a requirment for IT and do a count...count how many british workers are there and how many are non eu IT migrants. then count how many british IT workers are out of work.
and what about our graduates...IT was a very good career path for them...these companies that moan about not having the correct skills in certain areas...well i am sure that some could be satisfied by taking on sponsorships/apprentices...that would go along way to help our british children.
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@ barbara99
you keep on going on the same track that there are british IT workers out of work and companies hire migrant IT workers that can be paid less... well there are two sides to it... that can happen when migrant workers are on temporary visits here ranging from 6-12 months and the companies keep on rotating them to get cheap labour.... but when you talk of tier1 and tier 2 migrant workers, they are not here like the ones i mentioned before... so they demand an equally high salary, perhaps higher than what companies would pay to british IT workers because the tier1 and tier 2 ones are better qualified.. so putting a cap on them wouldnt help the british IT workers who are out of work....
however if the govt puts a cap on these rotating workers that would perhaps benefit the work force.. but then the companies would loose competitiveness.... you see it is a globalized world... and that is here to stay
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and i am afraid that it is only non eu workers who are opposed to immigration caps.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
addh:
you might be right...it is only the immigrants and perhaps the big horrible corporates who are demanding and ungratious with regards to immigration to the UK. but who ever said that corporates were kind, or considerate or have any loyalty to anyone.
most people, who love britain want to see an end to immgration for some time - it wasnt one of the most critical items on voters minds in our recent elections for nothing.
please read no 72....i think you will find that atleast 70% of brits are fed up of uncontrolled immigration of skilled, unskilled, eu and non eu workers. most peole actually want a full stop.
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This cap that legitimises EU migrants and disables Non EU immigrants, is the most reprehensible and morally indefensible act that this country has ever taken in its history.
The fundamental reason for UK's singular contribution to World History - the English speaking world - was the contribution of the Non EU Commonwealth.
The political leadership appears to have ignored the lessons of history.
In the face of the meltdown of the euro and the EUSSR, this decision will have a even greater economic fallout.
Never heard of Turkeys voting for Christmas - well until this one.
Ripley must be recording the biggest unbelievable ever.
The sanctuary that was created when UK left the EU in 1688 - and built the English speaking world - still is a sanctuary, away from the madness that is the EU. With its Rome running away from what it created, it is a sad end to 322 years of glory.
I really cannot fathom what is it that drives this thinking - when it is clear that the EU meltdown is not years but months away.
Winning teams dont change strategy - am left wondering who was the winner in 1814, 1919, and 1945.
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Sorry Mark, but you're quite badly misinformed. I have worked as a visa officer in a British Consulate overseas and can assure you that although Tier 1 (formally the Highly Skilled Migrant Program) is intended for highly skilled workers, the reality couldn't be further from the truth. In countries such as China, India, Pakistan & Bangladesh, an applicant can very easily falsify the documents needed to obtain a Tier 1 visa. Due to the high volumes of work that Entry Clearance Officers are faced with, under extreme pressure to maintain quantity rather than quality, large numbers of Tier 1 migrants flock to the UK from all over the world every day and in reality take low-skilled jobs that could be done by UK citizens. It is also not the case that Tier 2 migrants are filling a gap in the workforce. Routinely, Tier 2 workers are employed as restaurant managers, travel agent advisers and other similar customer service roles. Are you telling me we need to recruit from overseas for such jobs? The cap on immigration is welcome & is more than Labour ever had the guts to introduce. However, it's not enough. What is really needed is a complete overhaul of the UK immigration rules, with particular attention paid to the most abused visa category of all, the Tier 4 Student. Hundreds of thousands of 'students' have flocked to the UK since T4 was introduced by Labour and huge numbers of these gained their visas using fake documents, or even those who applied legitimately used the visa as a means to secure entry into the UK to work illegally. The points based system was designed to make the system more robust & to secure our borders. In reality, it has taken all discretion away from the officer. Applicants are hardly ever interviewed now & 99% of visa decisions are made solely on paper documents in just a matter of minutes. That really isn't maintaining a secure UK border, especially in these difficult times. The Americans have got it right. Every applicant is interviewed & they have a very high refusal rate in countries such as China, Inda, Pakistan etc. As should be the case. The UK however has a high issue rate in this region. The system is badly broken and badly needs to be fixed.
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@97 thankyou so much for your very honest, and real input.
that is the reality of things...and anyone else can ask yourselves why labour turned a blind eye to all this....cos all those immigrants entering under labours lax immigration laws are going to be none other than Labour Voters!!!
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#7 aristotles23
We have an inherent mix of cultures within the UK and because of internal migration each culture has been disfigured. I believe that we are a poorer society as a result.
The damage being done from those coming in from other cultures – including from within Europe – makes the problem even worse.
The talk is all about the economic effect of migration where surely we should also be worried about the overall effect on our communities and not just in financial terms. The effect of multiple cultures in our society is divisive and ultimately dangerous.
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#5. jamieson
I think you have been listening to too much BBC propaganda.
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Wendy wrote:
"UK immigration policy discriminates against native English speakers... I have four university degrees, including a doctorate, from top universities in Canada, the US, and UK, and have published an academic text, so I would venture to say that my command of the English language is superior to the majority of the native population here .... but I still had to prove that I could speak English to your officialdom."
This hardly unique to the UK - I'm a native English speaker from the UK with a masters degree from one of the UK's top universities... yet I still had to prove to the Canadian authorities that I can speak English.
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My skills in IT are without question excellent. But in 2002, Gordon Brown with the support of Sir Digby Jones decided that the UK faced a 'skills shortage'. At the time I was out of work, and out-raged. The benefits office told me that I was one of thousands. I suspect that the usual corporate lust for bottom-line savings at the expense of social fallout was to blame. Ironically such a rush to the bottom has most likely ended up costing corporates far more than they hoped to save in the long run. We have seen what has happened with the recent BP oil disaster, and the fact that engineer complaints were ignored. Drilling for oil is a sophisticated activity that requires dedicated staff, and as such they are well-paid. What we find in corporates today, is that rather than recognising and rewarding dedicated staff, they seek to dumb-down the job, and source from abroad to achieve short-term savings. In the case of IT, short-term savings can mean that a company's software assets can be ruined within several short years. Like the BP oil spill, the cost savings turn out to be completely illusory. It is a shame that the Labour government was in such a corporate sway. There is far too much euphemistic talk about 'skills' shortage when we really know that there is simply a 'cheap' shortage. If companies want to save money, they have to adopt modern working methods, it has been far too easy for them to duck out of their shareholder responsibility to deliver more bang for the buck. You don't do this by treating human beings as if they are globalised consumer products to be shifted about on 'intra-company transfer'.
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36.....gobechara.....And Lakshmi Mittal uses very expensive accountants and lawyers to ensure that all the legal tax-avoidance he can indulge in is researched and initiated as is standard practice among the worlds billionaires. What investment in Britain is he making exactly? The wages he pays out are far outweighed by the tax he avoids paying,so,in the words of Cicero,"Qui Bono?",Who Benefits? Not the tax-payer,thats for sure.Can you tell the readers who Britain's wealthiest tax-avoiding non-domiciled business men are?Corporate fascism has no nationality or creed beyond its own narrow interests,fakers and deceivers who will exploit workers of any society in a lust for ever greater wealth and power.Did you also know just how much money Mr Mittal has gifted to the Labour Party? Or maybe I'm not supposed to mention that.....
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99...kennethm.....I agree with your statement that we must try to preserve our own culture from degeneration and unnecessary,unwanted change,at the same time as reducing expenditure on people to which we have no duty of care.I made more comprehensive comments on "thinking cap" and "the tide has officially turned" Thank you for your time and for reading my comments.
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is there anyone out there who agrees with me.
the half a million about to be made unemployed could easily take back the jobs that we have imported foreign workers under whatever pretense for?
i bet ya, if you replaced alot of the foreign workers, where its possible with one of those public sector workers who may be on the dole...well it wouldnt feel so bad? would it?
isnt it time...when we are about to make half a million british workers unemployed we look at where we can re employ them....and asking those from foreign countries to understand that we must surely be looking out for the interests of the british citizen before anyone else???
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