Map of the Week: Forgotten white working classes
So busy were they presiding over more than a decade of record immigration and the pursuit of multiculturalism, Labour ministers are now worried they might have forgotten something.
That "something" is the constituency for which their party was founded, the people whose interests they were created to serve: Britain's traditional (white) working classes.
Let us not rehearse the wisdom of immigration policy - we can do that another time. Instead, I wanted to consider the importance of managing expectations.
I am on a train after visiting Leicester, a city which, we are told, will have a majority non-white population within a matter of two or three years. Held up as a model of successful multiculturalism, for the most part, the people of Leicester are settled, tolerant, even proud of the changes which their city has witnessed over the last few decades.
But go, as I did, to Leicester's New Parks estate and one finds a community which feels "neglected" and "alienated" with a "sense of resentment".
Not my words, but those of an official in the government's Department of Communities. New Parks is among one hundred white working class communities in England which have been identified as having deteriorating community relations.
Ministers can throw a bit of extra departmental chicken feed in the direction of such unhappy inner city estates, but the damage is deeper than that.
I met people on New Parks, white people from all generations, who told me they feel like a persecuted ethnic minority. They struggle to make ends meet, all the more so as joblessness rises, and many perceive the new arrivals as the cause of their problems.
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There is some evidence that the efforts to support migrant communities has led to unfairness in the provision of services, but the council insists most of the complaints are about perception rather than reality.
The issue is really community psychology: the failure by political leaders to convince the people on white working class estates like New Parks that globalisation, multiculturalism and diversity are to their benefit.
There have been bucket loads of "initiatives", schemes and programmes to try and reach the excluded, to offer the support which makes for settled, contented neighbourhoods. But when I walked around the estate with manager Chrissie Field, she was honest about their failures.
It emerged in a local study that the average reading age in New Parks is just seven years old. All those shiny leaflets stuffed through letter boxes were so much waste paper for residents who simply could not understand the literature.
"Now we go out door-knocking," Chrissie told me. "The only way to engage with some of the people on this estate is to talk to them face-to-face."
I knocked on a few doors. Most never opened. One woman suggested through the letter box that I was a Jehovah's Witness and my mission would be more successful elsewhere. Or words to that effect.
Another group of unemployed men assumed that I was a politician and therefore irrelevant to their lives. Suspicion and resentment oozed from the cracks between front doors and frames on New Parks. They feel they are on their own and outsiders probably spell trouble.
"We've been forgotten," one woman told me. "No-one cares about us," said another. Plenty of money has been poured into the estate over the years. I counted four or five youth clubs and community centres. A well-equipped leisure and sports complex dominates part of the neighbourhood. But New Parks represents a white working class culture that has lost its voice. They don't vote. They don't campaign. They don't believe they can change things.
I met a young woman pruning a thorny shrub in the front garden of her council house. I congratulated her on her handiwork. "We've been waiting months for the council to come and do this," she complained. "In the end, I couldn't stand waiting any longer."
She was a victim of the passivity that stifles the estate. The answer to her problem was in her own hands and yet she had waited, in vain, for someone from the council to do it for her.
There are lots of places like New Parks and many of them show up in the government's social cohesion data for England. We've mapped the numbers to show where community relations are thought to be poorest, based on a question about people's perception of how people get on with each other.
Hot-spots are in the North West of England, ethnically mixed places like Pendle and Oldham. There are significant problems too in the Fens where white working class communities fear the effect of EU migration on jobs. And the deprivation experienced by old industrial towns in the North East is reflected in a sense of tension and disharmony.
That data has helped inspire the list of 100 predominantly white working class areas that the government is putting together (see my colleague Dominic Casciani's report). The first wave of places to receive a share of the £12m announced today can be seen on the map below.
But I cannot help but feel that these pictures of England are the result of a political failure to realise the implications of globalisation and technological change for some traditional and vulnerable communities.
Hard to reach, yes. However, the social cost and consequences of not connecting, of forgetting, could be extremely great.
Update 13:30, Thursday 15 October: A number of correspondents have suggested a paragraph from my story is evidence of support for government policy on race and immigration:
"The issue is really community psychology: the failure by political leaders to convince the people on white working class estates like New Parks that globalisation, multiculturalism and diversity are to their benefit."
The "failure" I write of does not presuppose that the policy is a good one or a bad one. I am only making the point that the "alienation" and "resentment" ministers now fear are a consequence of their inability to convince people in places like New Parks that the approach to immigration and race improves their well-being.
Some of you will argue that that is because the policies are harmful to well-being. Others may feel that there are real benefits but not for people in places like New Parks. Or it might be suggested that that the government has simply failed to communicate the ways in which globalisation, multiculturalism and diversity have improved the lives of residents on the estate.
Raising issues about race and class is always likely to inspire a strong response but I hope you accept that in doing so I am trying to foster a thoughtful and intelligent debate about one of the key issues affecting the United Kingdom.
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~59~RS~)
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Multi-culturalism doesn't exist for these white working class areas. That's OK for the white upper-class and middle-class chattering dinner party circuit where they can indulge in an orgy of self-congratulation about their inclusiveness - though perish the thought that the value of their houses should be reduced by residential integration. But for the white working class, the reality is increasing poverty and apartheid by default. Caledonian Comment
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I live in one of the targeted areas and agree that the communities themselves could do plenty more to help themselves. However, these people see targeted help for others everywhere - official leaflets in a dozen languages, hospital waiting rooms where you don't hear a word of English spoken, non-English families assigned translators, large immigrant families handed benefit cheques and given priority in housing queues, EU workers claiming child benefit for children living in Poland, councils bending over backwards to fund Diwali/Eid festivals while banning 'racist' St George's Day parades, etc, etc.
Such communities recognise their own failings but don't see where the fault lies - so they blame the soft target. And they would readily vote BNP/EDL. And they will.
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#1 has a point. #2 does not.
Looking at old photos of the (ex council, now almost entirely privately owned) estate in a "deprived" area of the West Midlands on which I live, it's an interesting comparison to what you see now.
Then there were few cars, but a lot of pristine gardens. There was pride, if not money. Now you look around the estate and most of the gardens are concreted over, some with three or four battered and rusting cars around them, others of which have parking for two cars - neither of which are around during the day, but are there all weekend. Some gardens are regularly tended and look excellent. Others (like ours) are tended irregularly and when possible. Others are totally overgrown with weeds and in a state of total disrepair. I was not surprised to find that most of the latter are rented - not from the council, but from private landlords. The landlords are not local and don't care for maintenance above the legal minimums. The tenants don't care about maintenance because it's the landlord's problem.
I strongly suspect that the same applies to council tenants in many areas, with shrinking council maintenance budgets and staffing levels combined with a "not my problem" attitude from the tenants.
How many of these "deprived" and "forgotten" areas are simply the result of people who want all the problems to be resolved by someone else and not themselves? It's easier to blame someone else than take responsibility for your own lack of action.
Me? Guilty as charged. I really do need to find a way of repairing the unclipped bit of guttering on the end of our house, but I blame no-one for not doing so other than myself.
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I am the governor of a girls school and it is obvious from the results that the worst performing section is british white working class. When this is raised with the school or the borough there is a shrug. Its known to be a problem but no-one has any answers or real ideas what to do. There needs to be some real work and focus on this area. Of course there is a poverty of aspiration for some, but not all. It is shocking that it is Labour and their PC acolytes who have left the working class so far behind.
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It was very interesting article highlighting the alienation of many white working class people in their own country.
However there was an interesting sentence:
"The issue is really community psychology: the failure by political leaders to convince the people on white working class estates like New Parks that globalisation, multiculturalism and diversity are to their benefit."
This it very patronising. Globalisation, multiculturalism and diversity are quite clearly not to their benefit. Trying to convince the otherwise won't change their cicumstances one bit. In fact it will just harden attitudes that there are ignored by the political establishment. Which , I'm sad to say is true.
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It's really brave of you to take on this particularly difficult subject. One ignored by a Labour government who conned the white working classes into thinking they were working in their interests.
Never so for they relied on the loyalty of labour voters going back over generations to win their safe seats which enabled them to get on with their real agenda. To gain power and keep it at any cost by moving into Tory territory.
Even though they ignored their core voters they knew they could still rely on them come voting time for there was no one else they could vote for.
It would have been too much like hard work to keep up the policy of social mobility as previous labour governments had done. Much easier to pay them enough money to keep them quiet and inactive.
No thought for the potential problems building up for the future which are all too clear now. Much easier to live for the moment and bring in lots of cheap labour without having to pay for the training costs and special help that those in deprived areas badly needed
Now we have crunch time. All the ignored who have been quietly angry are beginning to stir. Everything is out of control. No-one knows how to solve it. It's all one big shambles.
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Average reading age of 7? I'm stunned.
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England has born the brunt of the British government's insane and prolonged immigration policy and this is the consequence - crime, social breakdown, alienation and feelings of betrayal.
Post war there was a real case for immigration. But not on this scale and not for so long. There aren't enough jobs to go round and systems in virtually all areas of operation are beginning to fail.
Now we have English cities where the white English are becoming the minority? I'm not sure at what point we empirically become swamped but as far as I'm concerned we're already there.
From the evidence of my own eyes having lived in Manchester and Birmingham we have significant proportions of immigrant populations with absolutely no intention of integrating, and a considerable minority who appear to hate England.
It's time to stop immigration into England completely and repatriate illegal immigrants.
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A simple question: why did New Labour pursue multiculturalism?
We hear a lot of talk about 'embracing diversity' etc but I've never actually seen a cogent answer to the question: why?
Why did New Labour think Britain ought to be a multicultural country?
What was it that made them think: "This place is too monocultural, we need a bucket load of diversity"?
Really: why?
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Im not surprised that people have a reading age of 7, this government has taken the role of teachers into a pc nightmare , children have children , and familys can be three generations of dole queue fodder with no hope of work , into this mix bring in mass immigration ( who no matter what the minister responsible says ) do not mix they just want our country and the benifits it gives them , and im sorry to say this stupid lot in no 10 hand it over in buckets . it is obvious to anyone that the children who will not learn have parents who did not learn , this government has a great deal to answer for , and the final insult will be if they give Mr Blair the job in the EU . they have ruined this country and made it a laughing stock.
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The thorny shrub woman is a great representative of what it is to be white "working" class today. If these people from the start adopted the mindset that the state owed them nothing, worked hard in school, paid for their own houses instead of relying on popping babies so the council could dole them out, there wouldn't be this resentment. It is their own doing.
One who works hard and is rewarded for it will sense a feeling of achievement. One who loafs about all day, for years, have nothing to expel their energy on, other than drink, drugs and sex. Therefore they will turn on anyone, and the most visible target is the ethnic minorities.
I work with (and know of plenty more) who originated from council estates, but did adopt the "work hard" mindset. Many are more successful than me, and they deserve it. One is both from an ethnic minority AND a council estate - he was so happy landing this job, because it meant he could move away from the area where he grew up. He spoke not only of the daily racist abuse, but the idleness, the resentment, the eagerness to blame everyone and everything but themselves. I have nothing but respect for those who grew up on council estates and made a sustained effort to make something of themselves.
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Everything that this government has done in the last few years has made your average Joe in the street nervous and distrustful of any the government agendas or programs across the board. We have the local PCT give us piles of leaflets to give out to residents very few if any are interested or just see them as a way of the government or another department collecting their details and prying into their lives. Feeling no Respect for anything they are asked to do or worked so hard to keep a roof over the head and pay ever rising bills that they simply dint have the time to get out and do the things they would like to do.
Were regenerating bits of ground and wasteland our current project is a community market garden which will be handed over to the community registered with a social Constitution. In order to do such things require constant courses and such so that the community are considered safe. Such projects are hard to run and find people to actually take custodial care of a community development because of all the rules regulations and other bits and bobs that councils and government tie up our time with.
But at the end of the day its a case of sod the government they are a different social class altogether have no perception of reality and spend their whole time telling us what is good or right for us but never take the time to know US. Take Wirral libraries our council hid the government response to them closing 11 libraries without consultation these people no longer serve the communities they work for considering themselves to important to deal with the local peons.
Immigration is a lie something to make you paranoid about your security to make your work ethic stronger.
England the one stop throughout history for all races.
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Multiculturalism does not exist.
As a country we have a number of diverse cultures in pockets, notably in the larger urban areas and a number of smaller towns, particularly in the north, where at some time in the post war years, labour was sucked in, mostly from the Caribbean and the Indian sub continent.
This influx of people from different cultures might make Britain more diverse but it does not make it multicultural. There is a dominant culture in the United Kingdom, it is difficult to define, but it is very real. Ask members of various ethnic communities in the UK whether they feel excluded, ask the younger members of these communities if they feel alienated, very often the answer is yes, but excluded from what? alienated from what? They feel excluded and alienated from mainstream British culture.
However difficult it maybe to define what the dominant culture is, two things are certain, it is not multicultural and it is very real for those excluded from it.
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Many years ago when I was a Liberal candidate I used to canvass Labour areas to be told repeatedly by the people there that they owed everything to Labour and so their vote would always be for Labour. Impressive I thought; so what has gone wrong?
It is quite easy when you look at it. The old Labour councillors were the representatives of their wards. They spoke for `their' people in the language their voters understood, on issues their voters could comprehend with outcomes their voters wanted. This was backed up by the trade unions who represented these same people at their place of work.
So where did all that go then?
The place of work shut down and was never replaced. The better qualified, the more skilled and the ones with more gumption found work elsewhere and eventually moved away.
The old Labour councillors died off to be replaced by a new breed from outside the estates who looked upon their traditional supporters as a given. However, these new councillors could also see the extra votes that could be obtained by getting onside with the mosques and temples of the new arrivals. So through their so-called multicultural agendas and contrived inclusiveness they purchased the immigrant vote.
Somewhere along the line the white working class fell between the cracks in the floor. They ceased to matter: I mean they were poor people and poor people always vote Labour, don't they? Furthermore they were no longer represented through the trades unions as they were not in work.
With little or no prospect of employment why bother with schooling? With high levels of welfare and taxation; why work? There is no incentive for these people to better themselves so they lapse into resentment, ignorance and indifference. Then along comes the BNP and others from the political extremities.
The BNP gets elected on the back of these resentments and the Labour government starts to panic. Too late guys: the time for dealing with this was twelve years ago. There is now no time and no money.
The only constructive approach is going to be through getting these comunities to organise themselves: much like Labour used to do fifty years ago. This is how Labour could get eventually get back into power by rebuilding itself from the bottom up. Somehow though I can't see the bright middle-class children of the New Labour apparat doing anything quite so tactile and grubby.
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great statistics but useless realy it fails to represent the underlying problems but when the figures of imported (cheap) labour and the problems they create and the illegal persons from overseas causing yet more problems are shown then people may well see that the indiginous peoples of these islands are fast becoming the minority and there will come a point when many will refuse and serious problems will occur.
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stanilic - "With little or no prospect of employment why bother with schooling? With high levels of welfare and taxation; why work? There is no incentive for these people to better themselves so they lapse into resentment, ignorance and indifference. Then along comes the BNP and others from the political extremities."
You see, that is why the hardworking taxpayer fails to sympathise with this view. The "WHY BOTHER" train of thought that has plagued these communities for too long. What would their grandfathers, who worked in mines and mills all day for a pittance, say? They fail to realise that there is a ladder to everything - you can't get to the top overnight, you have to work through the rubbish before you rise. Indeed, why are middle class people working? They experience a higher rate of taxation than the working class. Why bother with schooling? Gee I don't know, maybe so one can better themselves? Generations of this type who have never tried to achieve something significant, all because they will never see the top rung of the ladder.
Not everyone who works hard will get their dream job; but everyone who has their dream job has worked hard.
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11. At 5:08pm on 14 Oct 2009, wildsundancer wrote:
Im not surprised that people have a reading age of 7, this government has taken the role of teachers into a pc nightmare ,
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One of my sons and his wife, for work reasons, lived in Leicester some years ago. As their children reached school age they attended a school in which English was not the predominant first language. This caused so many problems for my grandchildren that reluctantly, my son gave up his job and moved his family to a less diverse area.
Not because of racism or xenophobia, but because the educational needs of his children were not being met because of the requirement for the school to be 'inclusive'
It is this sort of thing that needs to be addressed if any progress is to be made.
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This sounds really cold and heartless, and I know it, but I don't have the answer. The fact is, we need people at the bottom of the heap, according to the way our society is currently run. You just can't have upwards social mobility going on forever: we've already got the situation where young people with degrees, lured on by the promise of a brighter future, are unemployed or cleaning toilets or sweeping streets. There's less room the further "up the ladder" you go. If everyone moves up to the rank of "middle-class", with attendant lifestyle and income, who will do all the dirty jobs that need doing, and the rest of us don't want? As much as I hate myself for saying it, we need the poor, thick, and ambitionless to keep the rest of us in comfort.
What's the alternative?
Maybe we need something like National Service, but without the military aspect? A sort of "National Community Service", where all our young people have to do community-valued jobs like refuse collection, driving, cleaning, etc, for a minimum of 2 years (at a decent wage). After which, those who want to stay in the service can, while others move on, having probably gained some valuable life experience and lessons in the process.
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I agree with many of the previous comments regarding the feeling within the so called white working classes of having been let down by 'their' political party - this applies equally to both the Labour and Conservative parties.
The 'ordinary' white working man/woman has been terribly let down by the professional politicians, too many of which come from the legal/white collar sections of society. They have no understanding of the manufacturing industry which for years has been the employment bedrock of our society.
For politicians of either party to propose that you should work beyond 65 is a very good example of the lack of understanding of 'working' people.
Do you really want a 70 year old lorry driver following you on the motorway with a 40 tonne load ?
Do you really expect a 'working' man to continue to lift and load a press for 45 hours a week ?
Do you want a forklift/crane/press to be serviced and repaired by a man/woman beyond 60 years old?
Only someone with no understanding of real work would even contemplate such proposals.
Not everyone loves computers and wants to study in further education, the simple truth is that people have a variety of skills and ambitions and many of these ambitions and abilities only stretch as far as a simple manual job. These jobs are not without their worth - it is not any less worthwhile to load the lorry with goods driving a forklift than it is to finance the goods or prepare the contract to sell the goods.
All of work is essential from shop-floor to boardroom.
I have worked in the manufacturing industry for over forty years and all politicians have lost sight of the simple fact that only by manufacturing goods can there a prosperous and settled population - simple jobs, in all that time I have never seen a government policy that seriously helps manufacturing.
Please don't blame wage rates, they are not the most significant factor in manufacturing, governmemt assistance in Capital allowances and tax breaks would be.
Hearing poltician's proposing that they will lower employment by making the entire population take a degree course sums up the complete mis-understanding of the population as a whole.
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Actually, the BBC has a lot to answer for in supressing the freedom of speech which would have stopped this happening in the first place. Instead, they pump out multicultural/PC propaganda against the interests of democracy and our freedom.
The BBC people will never see their responsbility for this until we are an oppressed minority. They are PC-blind.
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It would be fascinating to see the posts which have been censored here. Usually "have your say" prevents people from speaking outside of the BBC-Guardian-PC-thought police limit. I wonder if this blog is any freer?
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I don't think this alienation of a white underclass requires any profound sociological analysis. They feel neglected because they have been neglected. They feel forgotten because they were forgotten during the flawed and damaging drive to establish a multi-cultural society. They don't believe that globalisation, multiculturalism and diversity are to their benefit, because they are not, they are the collatoral casualties of ill conceived and discriminatory social engineering. They see no future for themselves and their children because there is none. They feel that nobody cares about them because nobody has. Their only hope is to finally be recognised as a minority group with special educational needs in the same way as other minorities have been. Were any of them ever considered to be in need of citizenship lessons, allocated with quotas and favoured with positive discrimination in the jobs market?..I think not, they have only appeared on the radar screens now because an election is looming.
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I was just having a really good laugh at Gothnet's #1 comment eventhough he might have meant it seriously. Too Funny!
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17 OwlsandDoughnuts
Those of us who work see our rewards aggregate over time so we are prepared to struggle for what we can.
However, suppose you have grown up in an environment where nobody works, everyone is on welfare, the school you go to is so overwhelmed by its limitations that it fails to teach you to read properly. Then you try to get a job but don't know how to fill in the application form? I have seen that and its tragic. Without being able to read you are never going to rise in society.
The white working class are where they are because the social structures that they used to know are no longer there. There is nobody trying to motivate them so they are easy victims for the political extremists.
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The fact that little improvement has been made in these areas over many years, confirms the opinion expressed by many residents, that councils and governments do not do anything for them.
These areas are usually within safe Labour seats, so even if they do vote, their votes are not normally likely to make any difference to national results. Even although some local MPs do make an effort to help, it is not surprising that their needs are rarely considered at the top of the party hierarchy.
The views of the rich and powerful are much more important, because they donate the funds which allow parties to conduct expensive election campaigns, and the support of one newspaper baron probably has more weight than the votes of all of those living in these areas.
A sustained effort to solve this problem is unlikely, without reform of the electoral system. A substantial reduction in the number of safe seats is desirable for several reasons. The government's proposed alternative vote system will not help, in fact it could make matters worse. A more proportional system, such as STV in multi-member constituencies would help.
Above all the role of money must be reduced. Party leaders should not be in their present position, where attracting donations is such an important issue. Some form of state funding, in proportion perhaps to public support, is needed.
Mass circulation newspapers should be put under the same restrictions as radio and TV, and required to be reasonably balanced. There should be an effective press complaints procedure for enforcement.
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No 8. A reading age of 7 does not surprise me. After all many of the Schools will not have English as their main language, with councils ensuring that they have so many translators that there is little time to spend with the odd English Laggard. That said keen parents will do a little more- merely as a matter of pride and that dear freinds is what is missing. No I am not talking about that Jingoisitic British bulldog rubbish- merely the pride of self sufficiency which this damned Government has robbed us of. Speaks volumes really
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This is no surprise. It has been shown that as the population diversity in an area increases so they level of trust between people is reduced. And in so many cases of indigenous peoples around the world feeling marginalised they become demoralised. And as this article shows how dire the consequences of 'multiculturalism' and 'diversity' are, why does the writer claim that they are a benefit? And why the distinction between England and other countries around the world? When the 'winds of change' were blowing through Africa nobody told the Africans that they should put up with diversity and multiculturalism because it was to their benefit.
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15. At 6:05pm on 14 Oct 2009, stanilic wrote:
---"Many years ago when I was a Liberal candidate "---
Nothing wrong with that!
You make so many good points in that piece it's hard to know where to start agreeing with you.
The loss of manufacturing and associated industry jobs in the UK, and therefore the loss of the only chance of getting a job that pays well (albeit after a shedload of overtime has been put in) has done more damage than our dear leaders are willing to accept. It has destroyed the community spirit that working brings; it has destroyed the sense of belonging that came with union membership and mutual political interest in the Labour party.
I can't see how these communities will ever recover.
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---"19. At 7:08pm on 14 Oct 2009, Graphis wrote:
This sounds really cold and heartless...
As much as I hate myself for saying it, we need the poor, thick, and ambitionless to keep the rest of us in comfort."---
You see, that's why the people Mark talks about in his post are only shouting at him through their letter boxes or doing some gardening because "thecouncil" hadn't done it. Because they've been told that if you are working in an unskilled (or low skilled) job, you're poor, thick or ambitionless.
Rather than being looked down on, these jobs should be the bedrock on which our economy is based. People take pride in doing these jobs. They give them security. They give them a reason to get out of bed. More to the point - they give an opportunity to pull yourself up to a job that you never knew you could do.
I've done (brief) stints as a hospital cleaner and a factory production line worker (spot welding). I've met people who would otherwise be claiming benefits getting a much better income and pride that comes from a job well done. And I've met people who started as cleaners and developed and grew to the point that they became supervisors; factory floor workers who became charge hands or foremen; receptionists who worked their way into jobs in the accounts departments of their company.
And, of course, I've met people who cleaned hospitals for nigh on 50 years. Not because they are lazy, or because they love their job - but it makes them content. Their families are fed and clothed, and maybe their kids will go on to better things.
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Comments 2,6,15,& 23: spot-on! For my part, I see the Regional Representation electoral system as the core problem. The majority in an electoral ward count for nothing. The Big Three already know what seats they will win because they have had 50-years of experience. But the minorities...well there's a problem. A minority has no allegiance. So they receive a disproportionate amount of attention and resource, to swing their vote. Hence we have an EHRC. It is not there because there is anything inherently good about it. It exists because it pleases the minorities and gains votes. Its the same reason why no political party since the introduction of the Welfare State has ever reduced the benefits spend. It would allienate the benefits minority. As many of these are in safe wards, why run the risk? It is also the reason why the Labour traitors have allowed mass immigration. It swells the minorities pool.
It will only change if we can introduce some form of direct proportional representation, whereby every vote counts towards a Westminster total, and every elected official has to publicly register his or her vote after each Westminster debate. It seems ludicrous that over 1m people voted for a certain right wing party recently but that party has no elected representatives in Westminster. Statistically it ought to have about 30MPs. Because it has no MPs and hence the people have no say in anything, the anger and disatisfaction grows worse. It is equally ludicrous that issues of real importance to the British people are deliberately ignored: EU, Death Penalty, grammar school system, and so forth. They are ignored because they are perceived as being of no importance to the minorities.
And so we have a growing pool of disenfranchised White people, for whom Westminster is largely irrelevant. The Labour Party, the champagne socialists, have betrayed the working classes and sided with the incomers. So now the indigenous seek someone new to take up the cudgels on their behalf. Hence the traitors in Westminster now seek to make soothing noises to this new minority. Will the disenfranchised believe them? I sincerely hope not for Westminster has no intention of supporting them after the election.
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Don't blame immigrants for wanting a better life. Blame your Mafia drug dealing/New World Order government for homogenizing your society so people like (YOU KNOW WHO) could profit in the collapse. Ask who is your government protecting and why? What major multinational banks are involved? Who just made bizillions?
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In fact, even this Blog - and on a BBC website too - indicates a cynical attempt by the Labour traitors, to instruct its propaganda wing [BBC] to put on a show of concern for those for whom they have nothing but contempt. Suddenly, with an election brewing, the Labourites are full on gushing desire to reach out to the very people they have deliberately betrayed.
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I believe the emerging attitudes and tensions are the result of various governments' naivety at thinking they can slap legislation on any sort of xxx-ism (xxx being an attitude, prejudice, perception or genuine concern that causes governments discomfort) in the name of political correctness, and truly believing they have erased the problem. They've merely erased the symptoms.
NuLab have never represented the white working class who unwittingly helped elect them in. It's long been known that Blair was flying the Thatcher flag in all respects than immigration. Now, it looks like those "forgotten" people are starting to raise their voices a little, making decisions, reluctant or otherwise, about who they will vote for.
Frankly, we'll all pay the price sooner or later for the politicians refusing to listen.
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I would like to know when they asked these people i.e. did they do it at 11:00 in the morning - at their front door or at the pub? if so I'm not sure these people are 'working' class, the survey is skewed from the start. I'm from working class stock, my relatives and ancestors would be working in tin mines and foundries or as manual labourers (and their forebears toiled on the land) but I suppose I've managed to climb up a rung. I suspect I'm not alone, many people are from what was the old working class and we changed and adapted to suit the changes in the UK, we became 'skilled' manual workers or office workers at an insurance firm or skipped up the ladder because we went to collage and university, the people in the survey are the ones left behind forming the underclass.
If you have a class system you will obviously have people at different ends of the spectrum, also if you have people from the lowest class doing well, what's the 1st thing they tend to do? that's right... MOVE to a better area... (I've met people who from the sounds of their 'common as muck' voices you'd believe they'd have a council house but live in some detached near mansion in the home counties). If I was in sink estate would I stay there if I did well for myself, no way! I'd want my kids to live in a place where they won't get stabbed - and that's why you get these areas of deprivation. It's no conspiracy, but it must be more comforting to people to think it is.
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billions went to banks oil barons drug barons all getting richer under the current parties both want to continue funding the rot at the heart of society while blaming it all on the forgotten white working classes as Mark puts it. They created the current class and social divides even in the light of the new expenses the 2ND home repayments conveniently overlooked as the DWP land overpayment demands on 1000's of doorsteps for working family credit claimants all over England.
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This is a complicated subject but the root of the problem is the Welfare State and the woefully incompetant social engineering of the socialists.
Whilst most of us will have benefited in some way from the Welfare State for far too many it has become a millstone that has dragged them from the Working Class to the Under Class.
If you allow people to believe that no matter how indolent they are they will always be paid then naturally they will take the dole and not bother to work. To them it is a no-brainer. Why wear yourself out when you can get nearly the same, or often more, by not working? In fact in some cases getting work reduces the income available so who can blame them. What would those on this board who sneer at the 'scoungers' do? Would you feed your kids on the dole or let them go hungry on the minimum wage?
The minimum wage itself is a handicap to employment of the Working Classes. Labour always trumpets this as one of the finest achivements since the creation of the Welfare State itself. But it is hiding the true damage that this EU harmonisation project has wrought. Most businesses/industries that survived by paying low wages cannot afford to pay the minimum wage so they hire in companies from other EU states or from outside of the EU to provide workers who are not covered by the legislation. So those people who would once have toiled in the fields or flipped burgers get replaced by gang mastered labour. In some cases, as seen on the BBC itself, these gang masters are little more than modern-day slavers. All of a sudden the sort of jobs that those who do not want to sit about all day could do are no longer within their grasp. And the Government wonders why they resent immigrants!
Of course legal immigrants have to pay taxes so they eventually get priced out too. And it doesn't stop there. If you are a Polish plumber you can afford to charge half the price of a married with kids British plumber because your costs are so much lower. If you share a house with 5 other plumbers you are quids in. So now even the skilled British worker is under-cut. The government even introuced a stealth tax (IR35) to reduce the number of British freelance IT workers and then claimed a shortage of skills and created FTVs - special visas for foriegn workers to undercut those that survived this regressive and unfair tax.
So how did Gorden fill all the 'vacancies' that were left? He took away the border controls and deliberately allowed unrestrained illegal immigration. Simples. 'Sod social cohesion let's just make it look good.' Nice one Gordon.
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Mark, please reassure me that you weren't serious when you wrote of "the failure by political leaders to convince the people on white working class estates like New Parks that globalisation, multiculturalism and diversity are to their benefit".
Most people commenting here have patiently pointed out the obvious - that these are no benefit at all to the working class. Why would anyone think they are? And why should people pretend they don't mind when they have every reason to mind?
Incidentally, in my experience, black parents are the ones who complain most strongly about their children being taught in classes where half (or more) of the kids don't speak English. They know their sons and daughters are losing the only chance they'll ever have of an education. It's the same for white parents, but somehow they seem more defeated. And of course, if they say anything they're accused of racism.
I can't help laughing at the government's sudden panic-stricken 'concern' about working-class voters. Even though the politicians still can't stop themselves using patronising language about people's 'perceptions' (meaning, poor people are too stupid to understand what's real) and 'sense of grievance' (meaning they don't of course have any genuine grievance).
Too bad the alternative is the Tories. They will probably be even worse - they were last time. But that is not enough reason to vote for the worthless New Labour mob who kidnapped and murdered the Labour Party.
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"The issue is really community psychology: the failure by political leaders to convince the people on white working class estates like New Parks that globalisation, multiculturalism and diversity are to their benefit."
This comment alone is a very good example of part of the problem.
Firstly it would appear to betray the personal opinion of Mark Easton(so much for impartiality)
Secondly,we have "got the message" as delivered by the likes of Jacqui Smith and Harriet Harman on diversity etc etc.but we know what the implications of this message are.Isn't it about time that the govt and the various groups promoting the diversity dogma listened to what we are telling them,instead of ignoring us or dimissing us as racists.
Exactly how is it a "benefit" to become a minority in your own town or even country
The cesspit of multiculturalism and diversity has been used as a tool to demonise white people into silence.We can not discuss certain points of immigration and its effects without accusations of "racism"being used to close down debate.British history is all but dead in our schools,what little history is taught is now subject to revisionism to suit a more diverse range of backgrounds.
Our children are being politicised by school community cohesion programmes that promote every culture except their own.they have no sense of identity while some minorities receive support for after school classes to promote the achievements of their particular race(Note to moderater.check out "Great white hopes"broadcast on radio 4 Dec 2008 for proof of this)
Law enforcment is almost crippled due to the potential problems of arresting a minority.
Employment law is now subject to positive discrimination and many organisations operate a quota system.
We have to endure the usual "everyone in England is an immigrant" rubbish
We have to put up with the self rightous arrogance of children of slightly earlier waves of immigration who say that they personally know that immigation has benefited Britain(June Sapong's column, The Sun newspaper)How does she know?what is she using as a comparison?Her own existance?
Anyone that can seriously stand up and claim that any of the points that I have mentioned is of benefit to the people of this country is seriously deluded,maybe such a person is ideal MP material.
Finally,Mr Easton,your attitude is arrogant,condecending,misleading and presumptuous.you have presented this blog in a way that portrays the "working class" as semi literate unemployed bigots.I come from one of the areas on the govt list,i'm 41 and out of 25yrs of work i have been unemployed for a total of 4 months.i have a fair standard of living,yet i share the same feeling of betrayal,alienation and powerlessness that have been attributed to those mentioned in the article.
It is very convieniant and manipulative of yourself and the govt to imply that money is at the root of this issue.I earn my living but it does not change the way i feel about the direction that this country has been forced into by 40yrs of left wing self loathing social engineering.
Do not make the mistake of righting me off as a BNP supporter.I am not,but i understand why more people are turning to them
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The govt wants to dispel the myths surrounding Immigration etc by spending a bit money.
No amount of cash is going to convince me that losing my identity and homeland is a benefit to me ,my family or country.
They can stuff it...
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
It is a hard road. From a party built on the sweated bodies, bloodied hands, busted lungs, torn sinews, and lusty hearts of British working class heroes to the psycho-babbled, dishonest, middle class shaped, abomination of "bliarbour". "Tories with a social conscience"? Did we laugh? No, we cried. Our thoughts went to the Loveless brothers and the whole meaning of "united we are an obstacle, divided we are a pebble in a shoe".
Bliarbour looked at the evidence, Tories 19 Labour 0, the gutted working class carcasses littering Thatcher's first five years, and determined, "if the Tories can do it so can we". And do it they did, confusing not just one but umpteen generations of voters. Tory policies with a few words of encouragement to the working classes "we haven't forgotten you". Well that was true; they hadn't been thinking about them in the first place.
Is there a moral in the immoral? Perhaps in this article we see the "civilised" way that politicians and journalists patronise when an election looms. But maybe there is a much deeper disgruntlement that is below the audible range of our feckless middle classes. The subterranean notes that all animals run from terrified. If this country and its leaders have anything to fear it isn't mayhem from overseas it is mayhem right on its own doorstep. Don't ignore them ever again. Don't lie to them ever again. Don't even think you know what is best for our nation. etc etc etc.
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'They're standing on the corner and they can't speak English.
I can't even talk the way these people talk:
Why you ain't,
Where you is,
What he drive,
Where he stay,
Where he work,
Who you be...
And I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk.
And then I heard the father talk.
Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads. You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth
In fact you will never get any kind of job making a decent living.
People marched and were hit in the face with rocks to get an Education, and now we've got these knuckleheads walking around.
The lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal.
These people are not parenting. They are buying things for kids.
$500 sneakers for what?
And they won't spend $200 for Hooked on Phonics.
I am talking about these people who cry when their son is standing there in an orange suit.
Where were you when he was 2?
Where were you when he was 12?
Where were you when he was 18 and how come you didn't know that he had a pistol?
And where is the father? Or who is his father?
People putting their clothes on backward:
Isn't that a sign of something gone wrong?
People with their hats on backward, pants down around the crack, isn't that a sign of something?
Isn't it a sign of something when she has her dress all the way up and got all type of needles [piercing] going through her body?
What part of Africa did this come from??
We are not Africans. Those people are not Africans; they don't know a thing about Africa .....
I say this all of the time. It would be like white people saying they are European-American. That is totally stupid.
I was born here, and so were my parents and grand parents and, very likely my great grandparents. I don't have any connection to Africa, no more than white Americans have to Germany , Scotland , England , Ireland , or the Netherlands . The same applies to 99 percent of all the black Americans as regards to Africa . So stop, already! ! !
With names like Shaniqua, Taliqua and Mohammed and all of that crap ......... and all of them are in jail.
Brown or black versus the Board of Education is no longer the white person's problem.
We have got to take the neighborhood back.
People used to be ashamed. Today a woman has eight children with eight different 'husbands' -- or men or whatever you call them now.
We have millionaire football players who cannot read.
We have million-dollar basketball players who can't write two paragraphs. We, as black folks have to do a better job.
Someone working at Wal-Mart with seven kids, you are hurting us.
We have to start holding each other to a higher standard.
We cannot blame the white people any longer.'
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The"cause" of this problem can only be placed at the door of the ruling classes, after the second world war we had a great opportunity to build a fairer society, we had all pulled together to beat tyranny and were promised "homes fit for heroes" now we know that wasn't the reality, but we in this country were the envy of the world for our industry and we have systematically given it away to other countries, then we invited the other nations who helped us achieve victory to live here, nothing wrong with that except we forgot these immigrants may decide to live here and they dually did, it's this generations young that is now happily settled here that is the subject of the debate,some consider themselves British some don't wish to integrate, and others are passing through, and in the meantime we see those at the top still looking after themselves, and knowing that the economy is flat yet still taking the "them and us" attitude to a new level by sheer greed. I consider a person equal,whatever their colour or creed and don't care who I live with, but unless we can cross religious and cultural divides we will never integrate, this is why the current Islamic dogma is causing division,we all need to work to pay our way,but there are limits to the number of jobs and homes we can create, unless we cap immigration to some extent we risk complete disaster, this is what is causing the social and economic divides we see and the"well off's"still don't see it! this is also why we have a "never worked" under class who have never had it so good, and they are quite prepared to watch this country sink or become a lost cause, the politicians need to remember the past, millions died to give us freedom, we need unselfish guidance not party politics, we are in another war, the one to keep our culture!
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Thank you 39 (noitmem80) and 44 (cmbatsa) you both said what many many people think , why oh why can the mp`s or those in no 10 see this , they are like lemmings running off the cliff (ok i know that lemmings don`t really do that) trouble is they are taking us unwillingly with them, these people don`t have to mix or live in these places ..they don`t use public transport etc etc in other words their agenda is for themselves , and 44 you are right people will wait around for someone else to do something , people leave school and cannot read !! can you believe that in the 21st century with all the equipment and knowledge at our disposal , but a footballer gets more money than our pm or surgeon it beggars belief , a drugged up pop celeb is payed mega bucks , I don`t know where it went wrong but it sure did .
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I'm not sure why this government thinks it is just people on low income estates who think like this. Perhaps the issue is that these used to be labour voters but are now staying at home (or voting BNP)?
I'm not poor or uneducated.
I don't vote. I don't join in with anything from the central or local government. I keep my mouth shut and stay well away from public services. I have no comitment whatever to this 'society.'
Generally I don't really see this as being my country anymore.
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Isn't it dangerous to focus on a symptom of a problem and not the cause?
Years of social statistics, of sampling, of opinion polls, of vague reports by academics, consultants, and quangos are not ever going to penetrate the core of the destruction of our working classes.
The Welfare State did indeed deliver after WW2, even until and just after the time we encouraged immigration to bolster our public services employment deficit in the fifties and sixties. But something went wrong in the tussle between the workers, on the one hand, and the employers on the other. One was disavowed the franchise whilst the other was cleverly edged in. Thatcher delivered the final blow but the body was mostly a tattered wreck of what it once was.
So the poorest sank into a muddy muddle where earth should have been poured in. Instead politicians and their manipulators poured on more water and many sunk without trace. Only the fittest stand on the shoulders of those already gone. And then we, the onlookers at what crimes we have done, puzzle the cost.
An intriguing example of how we have failed to honour commitments to the poorest in society is the Royal Mail dispute packaged by a partisan media into Unions (Luddites from a bygone age) versus Management (visionaries desperate to bring a company forward). No one considers the alternatives - a worker buy out on the kind of terms that the Government love to offer to "big" companies. Five years of subsidies to get Royal Mail back on its feet; no selected out "profitable" services that make the playing field like a mountain. A chance for the working classes to show just how "good" they can be given half a chance.
We have gotten into a "closed shop" mentality far worse than that demonstrated by trade union leaders in 1978/9. Except it is a "forgiveable" closed shop because it is occupied by a load of business, academic and political dodos.
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I posted a comment to the wrong blog - if anyone wants to read it, it is no. 32 here http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/fromthewebteam/2009/10/wednesday_14_october_2009.html
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Mark,
I'd like to return to a point others have mentioned.
"The issue is really community psychology: the failure by political leaders to convince the people on white working class estates like New Parks that globalisation, multiculturalism and diversity are to their benefit."
Suppose we re-write this as -
"The issue is really metropolitan middle-class psychology: the failure by realists to convince the people in safe, upper middle class jobs like the BBC that globalisation, multiculturalism and diversity are an unmitigated disaster for Britain."
How persuadable are you? In fact, how would you feel to be talked about in this way? If the BBC's enthusiasm for "globalisation, multiculturalism and diversity" is based in fact then wouldn't it be quite annoying to be the target of some government mandated campaign of "persuasion" to convince you that you have completely misunderstood?
I think it's good that you are willing to address this subject. Few other journalists are. However, it would be even better if you could talk about this issue on the assumption that the people of New Parks are describing the reality that they see around them and not simply indulging themselves in a paranoid fantasy.
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Would Mr Easton like to reply to the comments on this blog. Most of them from my point of view have a very good understanding of what it's like to be a minority, (well it feels like it) english person in this country now. Do we on the next census, which will be a farce anyway, write down multi cultural as our nationality?
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Has it ever occured to anybody that white working class people might be right and so don't need coaching in liberal middle-class dogma ?
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@49
Recommended reading wappaho. Thank you for that.
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Thank you, Mark. This is shocking. I am an Englishman living abroad and I have done so for nearly 40 years. I am absolutely stunned to learn what they have doen to my place and my community. They? I always thought New Labour was a charlatan act - but I never realised how little I understood. They reformed the constitution - devolution to very community except the English. Tolerance for everybody - except the English. Like every other expat I guess I dreamed of the happy return - but not now. I understand more and at the same time comprehend little. How did this happen?
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53 thanks so much, and my thanks go to (on this blog) 44, 45, 47 (wish I'd written that one, me and my numbers, why can't I be prosaic?), 48 (first prize! 'So the poorest sank into a muddy muddle where earth should have been poured in.' - my eyes welled up!). You guys!
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Back by popular demand - ouch, I feel NPD coming on and I do miss JJ, I know she'd point out where I'm going wrong!
The Post That Went Astray [wayward, just like it's mistress :)]
I'm not sure I can add anything to the excellent posts above but here's my twopenneth.
first, I come from a so-called 'professional' background and married into the trades class, that's where my perspective comes from. I was part of the naive middle-class that put Blair in power thinking that I was supporting the working class.
1. council housing was/is not 'something for nothing' - it supplemented the very low wages in the manual sector, just as tax credits supplemented the low wages that corporations currently pay
2. the working class was encouraged to be passive through the council house system and NHS because it suited the professional class to take control of 'thinking' and thereby reassure themselves how much superior they were, in order to justify their disproportionate salaries
3. many people who've worked hard have been rewarded for their achievements by seeing their pensions collapse
4. working class culture is wholly unrecognised by Middle class culture but was actually a fine culture with extensive support networks firstly dismantled through moving communities to modernist skyscrapers - the early ones of which attempted to emulate the sociable working class street environment. working class communties were further disrupted by the collapse of industries
5. films of Braford in the 1970s show 'English' Pakistanis - the return to traditional Pakistani culture began with the closure of the industries
6. The Middle class is not multi-cultural it is multi-racial - the Middle class - polite society, call it what you will - has strict rules of behaviour and you will not get in unless you follow them whatever colour you are. For example, head scarves were quickly abandoned in the law courts (even though they seem set to survive in medicine and politics).
7. The political class has ignored the many benefits that immigrants, for the most part deriving from extended families with strong familial obligations, get through their (culturally/racially exclusive) networks in this country and with their homeland.
8. As well as networks, relative affluence has been mentioned - indigenous peoples have no cheap sources of goods/services from other countries nor can they save to buy property in another homeland at vastly reduced cost to over here
9. Indigenous communities may not want to move from an area - compare what is going on socially with ideas such as 'terroir' in the food movement - some people want to stay in the area where they grew up
10. speaking of terroir - many immigrants are not bound by any sense of loyalty to this nation - an eyeopener recently was working in a famous fast food restaurant where english as a first language was about 30%. The staff room Manglish was all about how to get benefits, how to get citizenship, how best to use dual nationality, which countries are 'good' to go to etc.
11. we are in danger of seeing this problem as white only - it is not, it relates also to immigrants who did integrate into the working class (as opposed to integrating into the professional class, which as said previously, is compulsory)
12. the fragmentation of society is wholly in-line with documented EU policy to create 'autonomous communities' throughout the EU - there will be immigrant communties, wwc communities and wmc communities - I someitmes think that genetic analysis would show that the wwc and wmc are statistically different celt-norse-germanic hybrids.
13. it is pitiful to hear my working class friends supporting the false rationale for the war in afghanistan that they have been fed, but they have to or otherwise how do they cope with the loss of their sons and brothers?
14. I'm no witch so I'm just going to repeat that the professional class has ALWAYS despised the working class - think of all the derogatory words you hear day in day out about builders, hoodies, kids hanging outside the shops etc. etc. - but these are people with an oral, sociable culture whose descendants have built the fabric of this country with their bare hands and for very little remuneration
Don't Vote! it is the only thing (great word from a great heritage - actually means debate not object) that will scare the westminster village because they like to believe that they are doing a good job.
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Britain has always had an unskilled, poorly educated white underclass. Some by effort and entrepreneurship made their way out of it; others did so through sport or entertainment and a few by education.
The old working class lived in communities where for most of the time there were jobs to support them; the ports, shipbuilding and docks; the factories and mills of industrial cities, the construction industries and so on all had jobs that required large numbers of people with manual skills. Where there was stability then generations could follow the same trade and youngsters be apprenticed in order to learn their trade. All that has disappeared in the post-war period.
This is the real problem, as our industry and manufacturing closed nothing arose to take its place; we no longer have enough low-skilled jobs for the low-skilled. No more pick and shovel jobs. (In todays X-Factor world many with no qualifications now consider manual-work beneath them too.)
What many immigrants do bring is a high work ethic, entrepreneurship, a high regard for education and a desire for a better life; hence the numbers of corner shops, fast food eateries, restaurants, phone shops etc that have been started by immigrants; they are prepared to take risks and work hard in order to make a better life; much of the white underclass now seem to want everything handed to them on a plate; don’t now like the idea of hard work and don’t value education.
Whatever happened to those that believed in self-improvement? Over the years I’ve visited any number of homes of the older generation of white working class and found the Encyclopaedia Britannica in their bookcase, not so nowadays. Whatever happened to the values that established the WEA and co-ops?
Nowadays it’s a blame/victim culture. Even if a magic wand was waved and all non-whites vanished from the UK (be honest, that is the aganda of many of the comments above) I doubt the white working classe's core attitudes of blame/victimhood and the expectation that it’s up to someone else to help them (not themselves, oh-no) would change.
Many of the comments above reflect this attitude.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Call me cynical but the only reason "White ethnic alienation" is on the national agenda is a) forthcoming election, and b) the rise of BNP.
For 12 years New Labour has insisted ther is no problem with mass immigration or positive minority discrimination.
Unfortunately its too little, too late - the house is full.
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Now I've been labelled a racist! No, I'm not. My removed comment was actually refuting that very suggestion in 57. I do NOT want all non-whites vanished from the UK.
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Have I read this right?
"No one cares about us", says a resident, who doesn't open her door to someone trying to help. "We've been forgotten" says another, who can't be bothered to educate herself enough to read a leaflet delivered to her door. A group of men say a politician is irrelevant to their lives; but they don't vote, and presumably they complain about what the council is (or isn't) doing locally.
They haven't lost their voice, Mark, they gave it away. To people who were prepared to study harder, work harder, give back to the community that gave to them, to get off their bums and take responsibility for their own lives. I'm with Gothnet #1.
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The problem above all else illustrates the deep hypocrisy at the heart of British "left-liberal thinking". All the concerned types are for the most part horrified by the white working class and its cultural norms. "Concerned" thinking has for years been focussed into issues such as disability, multi-culturalism, women's rights, children's rights traveller's rights, the environment and many other "right-on" issues.
NuLabour is a concerned middle-class organisation writ large and has been for years. Liberalism has overtaken the Church as the benchmark of people's self-worth i.e. I'm a concerned person therefore I am both intelligent and worthy. But those intelligent and worthy people are appalled at the white working class and its nasty crude customs and values...just look at the horror and hand-wringing expressed at the recent successes of the BNP.
Labour is going to have to remember that concern for the under-privileged means more than just fashionable cause-celebres! The white working class has to be viewed as more than an embarrassing throw-back only to be called upon when things get ugly...though this is nothing new. Rudyard Kipling had this nailed down a hundred years ago
"It's Tommy this and Tommy that and "Tommy, how's yer soul?"
But a "thin red line o' heroes!" when the drums begin to roll!
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RE: 57. jayfurneaux
"Even if a magic wand was waved and all non-whites vanished from the UK (be honest, that is the aganda of many of the comments above) I doubt the white working classe's core attitudes of blame/victimhood and the expectation that it’s up to someone else to help them (not themselves, oh-no) would change."
No, that's wrong. I have no problem with immigrants taking jobs as television newsreaders, Guardian newspaper columnists or local government chief executives - and thereby driving down the salaries for those jobs, preferably very steeply. Indeed, I would positively welcome it.
The problem comes when immigrants take low-paid jobs, and depress the low salaries even further. You must have heard of the poverty trap? You know, people trapped on benefit because any job they can get pays less than the benefits they lose by working. Immigration makes that problem worse by depressing earnings even further. Read post 30 by LostinBlues - that explains it really well.
Just suppose that a future government, strapped for cash, decides to outsource the BBC's London-based news reading to India. India has lots of well-educated, English speaking workers and a growing technology sector. Modern communications mean that British news programs could easily be sourced from India at a fraction of the cost of doing so in London and suddenly lots of well-paid, metropolitan BBC jobs would just disappear. It's a fantasy, but if it did happen, do you really believe that the BBC would continue to tell us such a one-sided story about the "benefits" of globalisation? Or might we find that newly unemployed (and aggrieved) newsreaders, researchers, producers and so on were suddenly sounding a lot like the inhabitants of New Parks?
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Labour have destroyed social mobility, they have removed the ability of the working and benefit classes to improve themselves. Education and work are the two planks of getting yourself out of poverty, the former has been debased in an effort to look good, the latter now punishes the lower earners for daring to get into work.
And for the record Mark, Labour have never been for the working classes, they've been for the Unions.
During the postal strike, the posties families will suffer, do you think Billy Hayes and his family will? He earns over 83k a year.
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Couldn't agree more with #1, #20 & #48 and the link to wappaho's comment #49 is well worth a visit. These discuss the causes and not the symptoms. Could it be that the resentment of seeing leaflets printed in other languages is more down to the fact that the "immigrants" can actually read at all? (That's not to say that I agree with the need for these leaflets, my dad came to England in '56 from Hungary, he learnt the language and integrated himself BECAUSE there were no leaflets and no ghetto-ised community to rely on.) The so-called 'immigration problem' is a media created issue not borne out by statistics or data. The "persecuted minority" happily blame immigration and multi-culturalism for their woes, but when questioned further admit that these issues have not affected them "personally". It would also seem that the most vocal are in the areas least likely to be affected by these problems. 'Working class' appears to be a misnomer, as the people who do actually work move out of these sink areas as fast as their little feet will carry them. There are issues of undercutting labour rates through using migrant workers, but they would best be tackled by enforcing the laws against employers doing this, starting with Baroness Scotland.
Migrants will always do better than the indigenous (they have to, just stay even). The destruction of our industries started by Thatcher and so enthusiastically carried on by Nu-Lab have created 3 generations of welfare dependents who believe that the right to stay at home producing children they can't afford to keep and can't be bothered (or even see the need) to educate should be the sole preserve of an indigenous non-working 'white' minority. This is not helped in any way by a society that rewards the feckless, the criminal, the idiotic and the fortunate. (e.g. Footballers & WAGS, 'popstars', politicians, financial speculators, celebrities, drugsters & gangsters and 'incredulous compensation' claimants. The real wealth creators are objects of derision in this society, eg. Engineers, Scientists, Nurses, Teachers, Small Business Holders, Technicians etc. Even the most successful of these are regarded as "geeks".
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"The problem comes when immigrants take low-paid jobs, and depress the low salaries even further"
How can you get any lower than minimum wage?
Not forgetting, 10-15 years ago (when non-EU immigration was mostly legal, and the Eastern bloc countries weren't in Europe), there was no minimum wage. Salaries were lower than they are now.
However, living costs have spiralled - and as a result, the big companies (the providers of such living services) report year on year bumper profits. But I guess they're harder to target with their bodyguards and high security mansions than the ethnics down the road, eh?
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They aren't the working class. Most are the benefit class, which is totally different. It's just not true there aren't any jobs. There just aren't jobs they want to do as they get the same money on benefits.
Where my brother lives in East Anglia there are lots of jobs advertised in the local paper. There are a family living opposite him where the mother has about 5 kids, pretends to be disabled, one of her sons has just stopped working in the chippie and is now on benefits. There was a job offered working in a cafe which he could have applied for.
What these people don't realise is regardless of the money, getting up, doing a job and getting paid is a better alternative than sitting around all day looking at the world from the outside and never being part of society.
This family are churning out lazy, work shy, anti social kids who will be a strain on every organisation who gets involved with them. This is the stark reality of the benefit system, so please stop calling it the working classes. Nothing could be further from the truth.
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I lived in Birmingham for over 20 years and have many friends in various ethnic communities.
The problm is not racist. I strongly believe that the British people are not essentially racist. These problems of culture, language, opportunity etc are often raised by people following their own agenda. Here I don't just mean whites, but there are also elements in each community who would prefer to see racial division to support there own political agendas.
That is not to say that there are tensions between all communities. However I have found on a personal level that people in a community are quite happy to live together; understand each others differences; and be prepared to make their communities a place that people want to live.
It is not a matter of race or culture, but of people simply living together.
Tensions, where they exist are often promoted and exploited by people who claim to represent one community or another.
This is not true!
I remember many years ago when Birmingham tried to ban Christmas.
I was talking to an Asian friend of mine.
His comment was "Do they think we are stupid! We know this is a Christian country! I actually like Christmas!"
I rest my case.
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There are basically two camps here:
1. Those that believe the problems are due to high levels of immigration and;
2. Those that believe the problem lies with the white working class not wanting to better themselves.
Whether you believe 1 or 2 (or a combination of both) it seems obvious that actual problem lies with the welfare state.
Those in camp 1 always complain that immigrants want to come to the UK because of our generous benefits system. Ergo the problem is the welfare state.
Those in camp 2 say that the white working classes believe that the state owes them a living and they often wont take low-paid work because they can earn more in benefits. Ergo the problem is the welfare state.
I believe there should be a safety net to catch those who lose their jobs and to help them through hard times but it should never be so attractive as to provide no incentive to work. Nor should it be so attractive that people will travel half way around the world to take advantage of a system of benefits.
Surely the solution is to reform the welfare state thus solving both problems. The real issue is can it be done? Have we now passed the point of no return?
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"welfare dependents who believe that the right to stay at home producing children they can't afford to keep and can't be bothered (or even see the need) to educate should be the sole preserve of an indigenous non-working 'white' minority"
I don't think the thinking is so sophisticated. The best model I have seen for understanding the human condition is the Sustainable Livelihoods model (you can find it on the DfID site). The concept of 'coping strategies' is laudable. People do what they do and often knowingly and unknowingly simply make bad decisions - I know I have! Life is a game of snakes and ladders. There are some people who exploit benefit but many, many more have just fallen into an existence through social and economic change, and through not being able to cope, except through what has become a dysfunctional sort of existence (including having a child inappropriately in a desparate bid for love, esteem and responsibility) but one that nevertheless has rules and operates as a culture - Shameless.
"The real wealth creators are objects of derision in this society, eg. Engineers, Scientists, Nurses, Teachers, Small Business Holders, Technicians etc."
Stick in a few trades folk and cleaners and I couldn't agree more!
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#67 - True. It's an insult to all those who do work in low paid jobs to call these people 'working class'. They are the 'benefit class'. In the same vein it is an insult to all the countless millions of people in this world that survive on less that $1 a day to talk of 'poverty' in this country. The truth of the matter is that we have never had it so good.
I propose a swap. We'll send 1000 'benefit class' people to rural India and they can send us a 1000 of their poorest. Who do you think would fare better?
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A thoughtful blog.
It's clear that there is a widespread perception among the "white working classes" (I'll use that term to humour you, although I think the attempt to classify people in such as simplistic manner is rather foolish) that they have been ignored while the government has provided generous help for immigrants.
You report "the council insists most of the complaints are about perception rather than reality". It would be interesting to dissect some of the complaints that are made, and whether there is any truth in them. If there isn't any truth in them, it would be even more interesting to know why they are so widely believed. And if there is truth in them, it would of course be fascinating to know why.
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"The issue is really community psychology: the failure by political leaders to convince the people on white working class estates like New Parks that globalisation, multiculturalism and diversity are to their benefit."
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As I sit here, unemployed, my job having been outsourced, I remember the last time I was outsourced, discovering that the Department of trade was advertising grants to outsource to India. I cannot help but feel that it isn't only the White working class who aren't convinced that Globalisation is good for us. If you want Globalisation of jobs, you have to have globalisation of taxes and conditions, otherwise we export jobs and import unemployment.
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There has been some wonderful phylosophical and physocological arguments put forward by all and sundry to this debate however, the truth of the matter is there have been non whites in this country for hundreds of years but until after the second world war their rareness made them invisible to the common person immigration on any scale started in the 50's with carribean nations brought over by London Transport, followed by Asians after the Adi Amin purge both of which were widely published in the media however, what was not put into the public domain was the constant flow of immigrants into the country particularly UK passport holders from the once great commonwealth. Nobody took notice of it as work was available the only time it reared its head was in the 60s/70s when there was an outcry of house prices being affected if a non white moved into the area, and the headlines 'would you want one living next door to you' was splashed over the papers. Pockets throughout the country developed where the immigrants lived developed by members joining families, workers working for their 'own kind' and the tribal mentality applicable to us all. Again although there started to appear so called racists attacks, and I say this because the attacks were two way although by this time the emergence of the 'dangerous'representative of the ethnic minority to stir up even more trouble started to inflame a problem that at that time did not exist. Manufactoring was still in abundance and provided work for all. Then along came Margaret Thatcher and in her determination to defeat the unions she destroyed our manufactoring base along with the so called captains of industry who failed to recognise the emerging nations with cheap labour. As the work disappeared and jobs became difficult to find bosses took the oppurtunity to reduce wages, the immigrants whose phylosophy is to work continued to do so at reduced rates, the white workers refused and started to look upon the others as threats and taking their jobs, and so racism started to enter british soceity leapt upon by the press scandal sheets flaming an already volatile situation, instead of finding words to dampen feelings they then gave voice to self appointed ethnic leaders, white generally upper class do gooders who patronised the so called ethnic minority and anybody who provided an inflamatory statement to sell newspapers. Slowly at first whites moved out of the neighbourhood into what became whites only areas, the ethnic minority became the majority and then started to demand more undoubtedly playing on the different race issue and because they shouted louder they got. Laws in their favour were passed which if you study properly are in fact racist against the white person. Suddenly we had Black, Asian and white ghettos and race only areas, attracting the criminal element from their birth place some with undoubted vicious natures backed by an ever increasing drug culture. Throughout this the the British white retained its normal apathy to what was occurring shouted the least and therefore got more and more isolated and ignored by the government of the day. The apathy continued into their attitude towards learning and working this has spread from parent to children over the decades, and as long as the government gives them money to sit on their backsides this is what they will do whilst becoming fodder for organisations political or otherwise whose underlying agenda is racism. They use the adage that the reason they are idle is the fact these immigrants have taken their jobs (in many cases true), have taken their houses (again true), have been given their own schools (true), built their own places of worship (true) not prepared to accept the laws and traditions of this country (true), are treated more fairly (true) and in fact it is the white who is being victimised (debate). The basis of this article is the fact there are many examples of unfairness on all sides, thet politicians have failed to grap the fact whole communities have become distanced from soceity, this urge to be seen PC has blinded them to the real world and what damage PC policies are causing but, at the same time the apathy has to go from those who moan to themselves and get out there and shout their concerns and wants without having to resort to racist violence verbal or physical. This government has got to look at its open door policy for immigrants regardless of the EU, it and the next one must get to grip with what is already occupying thi small island, get rid of these so called ethnic minority quangos and accept and understand victimisation applies to all colours not just those who are born with darker skins you need to ensure every citizen in this country feels worthy, accepts they have to work and live within the framework of this country, stop interfering with British tradition because it may upset some other race, if they want to be in this country and take its money and benefits then they accept its way of life, celebrations and traditions as we should do and are required to do when in theirs. And finally do not think communities are isolated by race difference all over the country they are. There are communities in the southwest in exactly the same situation where there is low colour immigration. It is the failure of the government to address the basic of problems, and whoever is in the next govt will still have the same problem.
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8. At 3:40pm on 14 Oct 2009, nottoonear wrote:
Average reading age of 7? I'm stunned
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Now you know just how bad Sink Comprehensives are, and why a parade of Labour Socialist MPs spout the letter of the law "Comprehensive State Education is the best" for your children, but send their's private. How anyone can think the Tories more hypocritical than labour is beyond me.
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I used to live on New Parks Estate, and it was a dump. A fair bit of money has been spent on it as can be seen from the main road that runs through it, but you definitely wouldn't want to live there. For some reason, Leicester has a number of dodgy estates - Braunstone, Beaumont Leys, Netherhall, Scraptoft etc, but having said that, the number of nice places makes up for it. As for living in a multi-cultural society, you can keep it. I'd say that 90% of Leicester's white population, including myself, are appalled by the number of foreigners, and especially muslims, who live here. (And we're NOT racist - we're just fed up being treated as second class citizens in our own Country!). The town center is like the United Nations, and it's very hard to come to terms with the fact that I will soon be in the minority in the city where my family has lived for centuries. Yes, we do feel alienated, and all thanks to Labour, whom I (mistakenly) helped to vote in. I don't remember being asked if my country could be swamped with millions of foreigners, many of whom are spongers and criminals, and many of whom make no bones about the fact that their aim is to take over the country. I'd go so far as to say that there is a seething under-current of hatred towards large groups of immigrants, and I wouldn't be surprised if the aliented Brits turn to violence at some point in the near future out of pure frustration.
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The reason that New Labour (and boy how we didn't realise just how 'new' they were) have been spining the line that diversity is great and we should all embrace it, is that, all that diversity walking through customs and immigration control are fresh new voters for NL. They no longer have to prove themselves to the old firm of white working class voters, they have a new steady stream breed of voters, who, all for the stamp in their passports will vote labour until they're six feet under or decide britain isn't quite for them. That's it, that's all labour has to do to ensure that for all the white working class lost voters they were more than likely getting 2:1 with the influx of immigrints for very little output.
The notion to have an inclusive enviroment whereby no one is left out, has backfired BIG TIME, as a previous poster has commented, I'm all for celebrating different cultures so long as its not at the expensive of my own in my own country. I have three children and to date I have never been to to a traditional nativity play at their school as they do not host one, however, other faiths yearly festivals are celebrated and my children are actively encourged by they school to take part in and embrace the diversity, for example divili, chinese new year etc, but they are not given the option to be encouraged to take part in a traditional christian festivity. My children are the minority in their school, with only 4 white british children in one of their classes, majority rules may be?
Identity through trying to accommodate and please everyone over the years, has now been lost for the majority of white working folk or indeed, just plain white folk, which I think is where a lot of hostility is coming from, freedom of british expression without offending everyone seems nay on impossible. With so many different ethic and cultural mixes in each area of the country its easy to see how our own cultural identity has been watered down and people take the opinion that they have been forgotten and become embittered. The question is how do you try and salvage british identity back while trying to accommodate other cultures without being classed as a racist nowdays?
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A lot of the problem has to do with aspiration or the perceived goals of society.
Emile Durkheim identified a phenomenon which he called 'anomie'. Without going into in great detail the theory is basically this: when the goals of society outweight the means to achieve those goals then 'anomie' will set in. In other words when the goals of society become unachievable for the majority of people, then they formulate a coping strategy. In a capitalist society the aim is to amass as much wealth as possible - to become a 'capitalist'. Most people simply accept that they wont reach the highest strata of society and just get on with it and try and find enjoyment from everyday life. Others retreat from society altogether. This is what has often happened to those in the lowest socio-economic category. They cannot see anyway in which they can achieve the goals of mainstream society (becoming rich and famous) and so they simply do not bother to try and an 'underclass' emerges.
This problem has been compounded by the celebrity, fame driven society of today. At least when it was all about money, many more people could envisage themselves working hard and attaining wealth or coming up with an idea that would make them money. People climbed the ladder and a father fully expected his son or daughter to be better off than himself and in most cases this expectation was justified. Education and hard-work were seen as the keys to success.
Today this is different. Celebrity culture has changed the goals of society. It doesn't matter how hard you work if you can't sing you will never win X-Factor. If you can't kick a ball you will never play for Chelsea. Hard-work alone will not allow you to achieve these goals.
The saddest thing of all is that those who are least likely to succeed are often those who most buy into this false measure of success. How many poor, council estate kids aspire to be doctors or engineers - something they could actually become through hard work, as compared to the countless millions who want to become singers or footballers - goals they are highly unlikely to ever achieve?
More importantly why do they view becoming a doctor or a scientist as an impossibility for them but believe the only way out of the slums is to pursue these unrealistic dreams? How many times have you heard a contestant on X-Factor say that they've had a hard life and they want something better and to win the show is the only way they'll ever get out of the ghetto? Why can't they see that their best chance is to educate themselves and work hard for a better life?
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45. At 08:27am on 15 Oct 2009, Steelroundhead wrote:
The"cause" of this problem can only be placed at the door of the ruling classes, after the second world war we had a great opportunity to build a fairer society, we had all pulled together to beat tyranny and were promised "homes fit for heroes" now we know that wasn't the reality, but we in this country were the envy of the world for our industry and we have systematically given it away to other countries.
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I'm not sure that is particularly accurate. I believe that the Post war Labour Government instigated many measures to produce the Land Fit for heroes, NHS included, but as with the current Government, failed to realise it costs money. They used the Marshal Plan aid in the form of 'Investment' that Gordon Brown would recognise, wealth sapping not wealth creating. Meanwhile in Japan and Germany, that money was spent on rebuilding factories and creating jobs, the social aspect was left to the workers to build once they were established and working. The irony is that in both countries it was their enemies Military men who shaped their successful industries and society. Volkswagen was effectivel run by a British Officer after the war, and owes much of its recovery to him. Maybe we need to encourage the Army of today to sort out our Social problems, given our MPs seem spectacularly incapable of doing so.
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#74
I agree with much of what you have written but i must take you up on one rather important point - that of housing. "Immigrants have taken 'their' houses" (your words, my emphasis)
Assuming you're talking about council house provision, the houses were not and are not 'theirs' in first place. They belong to the state. The state can allocate those house as it sees fit. It's about time people stopped believing that the state owes them a house.
However, i digress. The point i want to make is, that there is this perception that immigrants jump the housing queue. Council housing is allocated on a needs basis - i.e. those with the greatest need get the house first. Whether you agree with immigration or not if someone has been granted legal status to remain in this country they have as much of a right to social housing as anyone else. If a mother comes to the UK from another country with two small children and is granted the right to remain here then she will sometimes be given a council house as otherwise she and her children would be homeless. Often though they are housed in private provision. Certainly this is the case if the person concerned is working. Similarly if you are sixteen and thrown out of your parents house the council will find you somewhere to live. If you also have child you are more likely to get a council house. These people's needs are greater than someone who is not homeless but who has been on the waiting list for two years. Housing is not allocated on the basis of the length of time you've been waiting although this is taken into account. It's not as if the hundreds of thousands of people on the waiting list are living on the streets it's just that they'd prefer the cut price rent and right to buy (again at a cut price) that council housing affords.
Think of the alternative - we don't provide housing for unemployed, legal, immigrant families. I can guaranteee the very same people who complain that immigrants are jumping the housing queue would be complaining about the vast numbers of 'dirty immigrant children' begging on the streets, living in cardboard boxes under a bridge and the crime associated with that. This is what happens in Amercia and other countries less civilised than ours.
Now you may argue that there shouldn't be vast numbers of immigrants needing housing in the first place but that is a different argument.
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• 48. At 09:09am on 15 Oct 2009, bully_baiter wrote:
An intriguing example of how we have failed to honour commitments to the poorest in society is the Royal Mail dispute packaged by a partisan media into Unions (Luddites from a bygone age) versus Management (visionaries desperate to bring a company forward). No one considers the alternatives - a worker buy out on the kind of terms that the Government love to offer to "big" companies.
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I once asked a reasonably senior Rail Union rep why they didn't bid for the Rail Franchises, as I pointed out to him, in terms of expertise, they already had the lot as well as the experience. He said that it wouldn't be right, but the reason I can no longer remember, maybe he felt that the Union would them no longer have solidarity with the workers?
Still, If ever there was a time to revamp the Royal Mail it is now, we could re-open post offices and introduce into them a Government Bank (I would also introduce draconian law and punishments for anyone robbing one - treason would seem a trivial offence compared to it, although arguably it already is!) and then we could tell the failed banks to pay us back, and put our Billions into the state one.
The problem is the EU wouldn't allow it, and like it or not, the EU rules as far as our Parliament is concerned.
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#77 Edberry
It is impossible to critically discuss immigration or multiculturism without being labelled as racist. I've been on many blogs and forums and the claim has been levelled more than once.
Even suggesting that football should have a quota of overseas players is beyond the pale.
Maybe the liberal elitist left are right and we should be quiet.
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#76 - Would have found this post hilarious if it wasn't for the sinsiter, thinly veiled threat at the end of the below quote:
"The town center is like the United Nations, and it's very hard to come to terms with the fact that I will soon be in the minority in the city where my family has lived for centuries. Yes, we do feel alienated, and all thanks to Labour, whom I (mistakenly) helped to vote in. I don't remember being asked if my country could be swamped with millions of foreigners, many of whom are spongers and criminals, and many of whom make no bones about the fact that their aim is to take over the country. I'd go so far as to say that there is a seething under-current of hatred towards large groups of immigrants, and I wouldn't be surprised if the aliented Brits turn to violence at some point in the near future out of pure frustration."
And you're not racist . . . ? You can guarantee when someone says "i'm not racist but" . . . then something racist will come out of their mouth.
Don't remember being asked if your country could be swamped with millions of foreigners? Erm. . . you might not be racist but you clearly are ignorant as to how parliamentary democracy works. You voted for your MP. They represent you in parliament that's how the system works. If you didn't believe in their policies maybe you should have voted for someone else? Or maybe you just couldn't be bothered to research their policies in the first place in which case who have you got to blame but yourself? Or do you believe that every act of parliament should go to a referendum. Wouldn't leave a lot of time for work or ignorant racism for that matter would it? Oh sorry, i forgot, you're not a racist are you?
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56. At 10:37am on 15 Oct 2009, wappaho wrote:
Don't Vote! it is the only thing (great word from a great heritage - actually means debate not object) that will scare the westminster village because they like to believe that they are doing a good job
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DO VOTE, if you think that an MP cares if he wins a majority of 1 on a turnout of 3, you need you head examining. They could quite easily put up with the media glare over that, given they can brazen out the expenses issues! If sensible and disillusioned people fail to vote, the idiots get to elect the Government - as we can see. VOTE, but not for the Lib-Lab-Cons, or, even more subtly, vote AGAINST your sitting MP, if protest you must and can't find someone to vote for.
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‘I don't remember being asked if my country could be swamped with millions of foreigners, many of whom are spongers and criminals, and many of whom make no bones about the fact that their aim is to take over the country.’ Comment 76.
There are large numbers of Brits living in Spain (many of whom are known criminals.); the Spanish have never had a referendum on allowing that to happen.
Then again we never asked the native populations for their permission to colonise North America, we didn’t ask the Africans if it was OK to transport them overseas to become slaves on our plantations; we didn’t ask the Aborigines or Maoris if it was OK to colonise their country and relegate them to second class citizens, ditto Rhodesia, S. Africa, India and so on. Nor in Tasmania where we committed genocide by wiping out the population. Nor did we ask the Chinese for permission to occupy their country so we could continue to sell them opium and so on.
It’s not just free market economics (free movement of capital and labour) or the destruction of trade unionism in the 1980s (that led to the loss of wage protection and bargaining power) or the globalisation of production (I bet most of what your wearing is made in China) that have led to this; the arrival of cheap mass international transport from the 1960s mean that people can now travel cheaply from continent to continent.
Be honest, it was never possible to freeze British manufacturing and industry to keep it as it was in the 1950s, change for good or bad would have come sooner or later.
How many white British now live and work in foreign countries (and enjoy doing so), even if as a temporary measure? The great movement of people in today’s world cuts both ways.
Those that take advantage of it have skills to offer (the benefits of education) or have entrepreneurial drive and ambition. Those that don’t are those we see left stranded in our cities.
Some of those interviewed in Leicester in Mark’s video above are sat drinking during the day; hardly making themselves more employable, but clearly they can afford alcohol.
Nor do the first few in the video above look as though they’d make an employer really want to take them on.
As I’ve said we’ve lost the unskilled jobs, now we’re left with pools of the unskilled, uneducated and unmotivated that insist on blaming others for their plight.
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#76:
"And we're NOT racist - we're just fed up being treated as second class citizens in our own Country!"
Could you give me a specific example (backed up by verifiable evidence) of how you have been treated as a second class citizen?
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#82:
"It is impossible to critically discuss immigration or multiculturism without being labelled as racist."
No, it's perfectly possible to have a critical discussion without being labelled as racist. What is considerably harder, however, is to make blatantly racist comments (such as in post #76) without being labelled as racist.
If you want to have a critical discussion without being labelled as racist, here's my top tip: any criticism you want to make of immigration and multiculturalism should be backed up by verifiable evidence, not some myth that you read in the Daily Mail.
Come and tell us what you think is wrong with immigration and multiculturalism in that spirit, and I promise not to call you a racist. Deal?
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The only multi cultural country I know of that has not collapsed into civil strife is Switzerland. It is a sad fact that although people can and do co-exist cultures don't seem to. A quick look around the worlds hot spots shows this. Yugoslavia's civil wars are well documented, the sunni and shiite moslems seem to hate each other, Northern Ireland is still simmering, the Basques want a separate state, a lot of Africas wars are a result of the borders of the countries were drawn up by europeans with no thought of the people/cultures already there, the native people of the Americas, Australia and New Zealand were swamped and are now strangers in their own land. I am now 70 so I wont see the next 50 years but I fear for Englands future and that of my grandchildren. I am very much afraid that Enoch Powell's words might come back to haunt our politicians.
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@56 wappaho
I am delighted you decided to copy your piece over. It is a very worthy and profound entry that looks at the problem at not the symptoms. I also detect no hint of racism, so I can understand your irritation with the moderators.
There was a very interesting exchange between Victoria Derbyshire (VD) and a caller on Five Live today. The caller described his daughter being spat at by four black girls. VD asked the caller if he was suggesting that the attack was racially motivated. The caller turned this around and said if a black girl had been spat at by four white girls it would be described as racially motivated so the question was irrelevant. What motivation would there be he asked VD.
It is painfully obvious to all thoughtful members of society that our preoccupation with "positive" discrimination is a painful failure. It does not integrate it simply emphasises a divide that has no right to exist. When I am face to face with someone else I see a person, a person who I have a debt of respect to. That respect drives me to get to know this person, to try to understand them and overcome any fears or barriers to communication that may exist. If I fail it is my failure not a twisted way of saying I am racially intolerant.
When Obama became President and all America hit the highest self congratulations you always knew it would all end in tears. Had no one mentioned the colour of Obama's skin then the human race could start to claim that we really have turned an important corner.
BBC Minorities Unit please note.
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The govt want to counter the lies spread by the BNP.
Heres one to start with .
In the early 2000s the BNP said that white people in Leicester would become a minority through immigration and the high birth rate of immigrant mothers.The govt (and the BBC)said this was a lie.
In 2008 it was announced that Leicester was due to become the 1st"plural" city in europe.Jackie Smith said we must celebrate this announcement as proof of the benefits of diversity.
Search the bbc website for the proof of these points.
Note im not a bnp supporter
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The word multiculturasism means an appreciation of each others culture but, when it comes to this society it means every other culture accept our own we have a culture developed over hundreds of years by other cultures that have conquered us in the past but it is our culture and yet, we are forced to abandon this culture by politicians who are looking for the majority vote of the dominant culture in their constituency or to be seen to be PC. There is no acceptable excuse for our children to be deprived of their inheritance of british culture including religion. Even the church has jumped on this PC band wagon and forgotten true british tradition and worship. Diversify by all means if that is your individual want but, do not force those who want to carry on their own tradition out into the dark. Britain was the first to tolerate diversty on a grand scale and for that it is being stabbed in the back by those it gave refuge. Racism was brought to these shores we did not invent it
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erniep
I have used the bnp website for information for the past year , and have yet to find a lie!
Their picture is more in keeping with the world my relatives, who got stuck! experience.
Hopefully, the expenses scam has blown away all the blind faith in the LIBLABCON and their thugshirts the AFL.
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I watched a clip on youtube the other day about the desecration of a graveyard for the sake of a mosque somewhere in the north of england. The headstones where bulldozed because they where "offensive" to a certain religion!!!!
Apparently, local government allowed/permitted this to happen.
What kind of message does that send out to the indiginous brit???
I for one am really looking forward to the next general election. I believe It will be the turning point for the british public. With the MP's expenses scandal and the latest anouncement of banking profits ect. I feel we have had nothing but our faces rubbed in "it" for far too long over many issues.
I would like to see a box on my ballot paper that say "No Confidence in any party".
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DisgustedofMitcham2
You have just confirmed another device used against anyone not happy with mass immigration or multiculturism leading to separation and non English speakers.
Must be readers of the Daily Mail.
Your views obviously must be gleaned from the Guardian and Radio 4 but so what.
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The first inhabitants of the U.K. the Celts, fought under Queen Boadicca in Kent against the incoming Romans, terrified the invaders as reported by Tacitus, and won. Along came some Vikings about four hundred years later -the daughter of the current Celt ruler fancied one, married him, and her husband fought alongside the Celts to keep out more arrivals when the harvests failed. Her husband Horsa and her brother Cantigern are buried on the hillside above Aylesford in Kent. In the sixteenth century and for a while before , huge chunks of France were British (hooray) - Mary Queen of Scots said she would die with Calais engraved on her heart. If the writer of this blog has only just noticed that folk come and go between the U.K. and other places, then his information is not tremendous news - he is about two thousand years out of date.
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When Britain considered racism in the fifties and sixties it wished to prevent a "majority" from targeting a "minority", to ostracise that minority, or to treat them as less equal than others. Slowly but surely the "minorities" came to include indigenous "nationals" such as Welsh and Scottish. The English never were a minority so we came out with no parliament of our own, no voice in ethnicity matters, and no right to question the judgements of people like Trevor Philips because we would be termed "racist".
The supremely flawed logic of this is that we are all minorities of one; having cultural "links" to the past is pie in sky psycho-babble. We all have "links" to the past otherwise we wouldn't be here would we? So excuse me for my pedantry but wasn't the establishment of assemblies for Wales and Scotland an idiotic and divisive step? Are we not all in this together - as equals? Or is someone playing a game of charades whereby "class" division (hard to argue against) is replaced with "ethnicity" division (hard to justify unless you are a minority and of course we are all a minority of one).
So by being born white, and English, I am somehow marked out as potentially flawed - a racist, a bigot, a tormented soul with no cultural heritage, understanding or depth. Even my language can be savagely plagiarised without a right of protest.
I must treat everyone else with respect but they can trample all over me? Is that what equality means?
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#94:
I apologise if you think I was accusing you of being a Daily Mail reader. That was not my intention. I had intended merely to point out the importance of obtaining your arguments from reliable sources if you want them to be taken seriously and avoid accusations of racism. But I can see how my post could have been misconstrued, and I apologise for the careless wording.
My main point, however, still stands. Would you like to tell us, using verifiable evidence, what you think the problem is with immigration and multiculturalism?
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#91:
"we are forced to abandon this culture"
"do not force those who want to carry on their own tradition out into the dark"
What do you mean exactly? I'm a white British person, and I'm not aware of any time when I've been forced to abandon my culture. I'm not a Christian myself, but I have friends who are, and I'm not aware of any of them having been denied the freedom to practice their religion.
Could you give some examples?
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#97 Mr DisgustedOfMitcham2 My main point, however, still stands. Would you like to tell us, using verifiable evidence, what you think the problem is with immigration and multiculturalism?
Please could I reverse your question and ask you what is the good thing about mass immigration and multiculturalism?
I constantly see people telling us it's good for us, but never why.
How many million would you like to join the UK?
Would you like to see the population at say 150 million, because we would get even more than that if we had entirely open borders.
And what is multiculturalism? I believe there are roughly 450 different races in the world, would you like every one represented here? How many of each would you like?
I'm not a racist bigot as you seem to imply to people here, we are worried about the country being swamped with too many people, that's every race not just the different coloured ones.
I know of quite a few foreign people here who have walked into jobs without an interview, because one of their countrymen was in the job before. It's called networking, something the english working class have lost out on, because employers are so keen to employ the man they can pay the least.
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98 see 58
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Here we read of tenants / occupants with an average reading age of 7.
Elsewhere we read of a proposal to raise the age of entry to primary school.
I dare to suggest that the average "maths age" of the Government / Civil Service is even lower than 7. Also, the figures of tens of millions for projects nationally do not stack up. Think that it costs £4 or 5 million per year to run a secondary school with just 700 or so pupils, and that a city the size of Coventry has around 20 secondary schools, most with rather more than 700 pupils, and the pathetically small nature of the the budgets assigned to some nationwide community projects becomes easier to understand.
"Government for the people"? Try spending some of our money on our communities and on education rather than wasting billions interfering in the Middle East.
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JJ - Sky News Press Review last night - Kevin Maguire referred to the way GS purportedly operates as some sort of 'odd religious sect' :)
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sorry, ignore 102, I posted to the wrong blog again - see, not ALL woman can multitask!!
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#99:
I think the burden of proof is on those stating a position to prove their point. If you read my previous posts, you'll notice that I didn't say multiculturalism and immigration are good things. What I said was that those who say they are bad things need to explain why if they want to be taken seriously.
As for my own position, I'm suspect that zero immigration and totally uncontrolled immigration would both be bad for the country, and that there is an optimum somewhere in between. Where it is, I don't know. If someone wants to convince me of a specific optimum using rational arguments, I'm all ears.
But off the top of my head, I can think of one way in which I shall personally benefit from immigration today, namely that I'm planning to have an Indian (or possibly Chinese) takeaway for my dinner this evening, which would not be an option open to me if there had been no immigration to this country in the last few decades.
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#100:
I'd love to see #58, but sadly it isn't there any more.
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90 noitmem80 wrote:
The govt want to counter the lies spread by the BNP.
Heres one to start with .
In the early 2000s the BNP said that white people in Leicester would become a minority through immigration and the high birth rate of immigrant mothers.The govt (and the BBC)said this was a lie.
---
Funny, I've lived in Leicester since 2004 and it was one of the first things I was told - I'd like some evidence that the govt and BBC somehow covered this up
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95 outsideengland
Whilst I agree with your sentiment about people moving into, out of and around the island of Britain for a very long time, I do feel that history is not your strongest point.
I would suggest some more reading would prove helpful. Perhaps a good book or two rather than the internet.
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#105 DisgustedOfMitcham2 Please read 56, mistaken as 58, a very interesting post.
#104 Where it is, I don't know. If someone wants to convince me of a specific optimum using rational arguments, I'm all ears.
Yes I don't think anyone knows! But if this is brought up anywhere, the first thing anyone shouts is racism, instead of having a rational debate about who, and how many should be here.
I expect the indigenous IT workers are very unhappy about so many Asians being brought in by the back door, so that they are unemployed.
I expect the indigenous chinese and indians are fed up with immigrants coming in to cook for you. The border agency constantly picks up illegal immigrants in restuarants. Are you sure you can trust the hygiene of an illegal immigrant, just in the country?
My opinion would be we should have a constant stream of immigration, but a small one, even less than Migrationwatch propose, which is equal in and out. How about we house, educate and keep health care high for the people already here, and then start worrying about the rest of the world. After all we are 175 billion in debt and counting, and it's the ordinary tax payer that forks out for everything.
We have at the moment 2,000 new households every week in this country, where on earth they all live with the several million of shortage of council houses is a mystery to me, but they keep on arriving. Have a look at the Migrationwatch website that appears to have an unbiased view politically.
As for multiculturalism I think we as a race have always taken bits of everybodies culture and mixed it in with our own. In fact I think we are one of the nosiest and interferring races on earth, but we mixed it all up, we didn't say this is one and culture and that is another. But that seems to be happening now.
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Leicester is projected by some to become a minority white city after 2011. But not by academics who've looked at the numbers. They think another 10 or 20 years. The world changes, behaviours change, and with plenty of EU migrants as well, I wouldn't be too convinced that 2011 is a properly worked forecast. But it is published and hardly a secret. Which is presumably why the report opens with the prediction.
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Now we are getting to the heart of the problem.
DigustedofMitchem2 writes:
"I suspect zero immigration or uncontrolled immigration is bad for the country"
This is exactly the argument that the anti's have been "discouraged" from having during the last 10 years of mass immigration.
Nice to know, however, as a tax payer, that my diet can now be diverse.
For a BBC correspondent to suggest that our Government "might have forgotten something" about our immigration policy is a big leap forward.
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LA-LA LAND: A FAILED STATE
wappaho (#102) Just look at the demographics of NYC (#5) and the productivity of groups as a function of differnces in mean cognitive ability and other parameters of its distribution. What we are seeing is the consequence of an over emphasis on verbal education at the expense of spatial, that is, rhetoric over reality.
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wrongsteeple (#109) "Leicester is projected by some to become a minority white city after 2011."
About 23% of the pupils at Key Stage 1 (7 years of age) in Tower Hamlets, London, are White British. It is going the same way for other East London boroughs. Given the differences in TFRs between different groups, is it any surprise that over 99% of London's population growth in the next 30 years is projected by the Lord Mayor of London's statisticians to be in BME groups. What is the BME proportion of London (effectively an EU NUT/Regional Development Agency) today? Be sure to follow the links in the previous post, as well as this one.
This is not about colour or race per se, it's about the distribution of skills, the operation of gene barrier which drive assortative mating, and the fact that skills/behaviours are a function, i.e expression of innate abilities. here is also a problem with the White Working/Under class in this respect. The birth rate there is higher than in the above average intelligence. It is not about individuals per se either. This does not justify absolute discrimination pro or con someone simply because they are a member of a group, their skin colour, SES etc, but it does tell one something important about demographic changes and economics as a function of groups, birth-rates (see other countries as harbingers) and innate abilities.
Alas, not enough people are smart enough (i.e there are not enough smart people) to grasp what this means these days. They will argue...... children argue..... :-(
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RE 97. DisgustedOfMitcham2
"My main point, however, still stands. Would you like to tell us, using verifiable evidence, what you think the problem is with immigration and multiculturalism?"
Mass immigration is bad because it damages the life chances of the existing working poor or those who are benefit dependent but who might aspire to be working poor. This is easy to see from basic economic principles but given your aversion to the Daily Mail I'll opt for that well known far right rag the Guardian and its equally xenophobic columnist Polly Toynbee.
"They [immigrants] have few costs and many are willing to sleep on floors to save money."
"Denham [John Denham, MP] says the arrival of 14,000 Poles in Southampton has cut rates for building workers by half."
"London, where migration is greatest, also has the highest unemployment, especially among British-born ethnic minorities."
"Poor families in this most expensive city can't pay for childcare, and compete for jobs with single migrants willing to take less than a living wage. But the rich prosper: restaurants, cleaners and all other services are cheaper because wages are low."
There's lots more like that. Furthermore, she is mostly talking about legal immigration. Since illegals are often willing (or forced) to accept below minimum wage, they make the problem even worse.
As Toynbee says, mass immigration benefits the pampered, middle class but is a disaster for the low-skilled and poorly educated.
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Having left UK some 25 years past, I have no real idea of what is going on. I am however concerned reading all the comments and as a teacher, I am truly saddened at the 7 year old reading age. Obviously things are going wrong way before arriving at secondary education.
I have always been dismayed by politicians not being able to just talk straight. Hypocrisy helps no-one. It creates problems rather than solving them. As a young adult I admired two people for stating their case, as I felt, quite straightforwardly. Margaret Thatcher and Arthur Scargill. Not that I agreed outright with either.
As an immigrant into other countries I've always learned the native language. In Catalonia where I live now, there are extremely cheap government courses at all times of the day for foreigners and indeed for locals who were never taught in their native language, Catalan. Basically, if you want to learn you will. It's offering opportunity to adapt to the new culture and the rest you do for yourself.
Immigrant children are taught in the language of the country, immersion, and then given extra support.
My mother, her siblings, and her parents before her, all born in the Western Isles, spoke no English before going to school. They were poor, went to school barefoot and just got on with it. They wanted to learn, so ended up perfectly bi-lingual.
What is the answer, I don't know. Pathetic politicians don't help and a welfare system gone awry doesn't either. A leader with some backbone, less fluffy idealism and getting the basics sorted out is needed; but is there one?
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#113:
Well, if it's from as respected a source as The Guardian, then it must be true!
[/sarcasm]
But anyway, let's say for the sake of argument that it's true that rates for building workers have been cut in half. That's bad news if you're a builder, but it's good news for pretty much anyone else, isn't it? In general, competition is good for a healthy economy. Protectionism sounds attractive, but doesn't tend to be a good thing in the long term.
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The white working class seems to have developed an overinflated sense of entitlement, but I would rather have an educated, polite, law-abiding, employed and tax-paying European, Asian or African living next door to me than a dirty, unemployed, offensive "British" waster any day. The days of white supremacy are over: we are evolving, and what you do, how you behave and think and conduct yourself, what you can offer to society, are more important in this new world than skin colour or nationality ever was in the old. The white working class is obsolete.
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Jo Brand (her of the Miss Thatcher sacking) said on radio the other day it is not possible to racial abuse "the white majority" because they have the power.
#116 is guilty of just that.
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I really don't see that "we British" can complain too much about immigration, when much of it has come from countries which our forefathers colonised a couple of centuries or so back, trying to tell the natives how much better was the lifestyle of our "civilised" nation.
Clearly the message got through!
With Jaguar Land Rover now owned by Tata; with the Rover brand names now owned by Nanjing Automotive; with many "British" banks now run from call centres based in Asia, is it not time to recognise the wider significance of the Third Law of Newton:
"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"?
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Multi-culturalism was never about equality between cultures but a post-colonial guilt-driven project inflicted on Britain by the liberal left,white middle-classes, who residing in the quiet leafy suburbs, will never see up close the widespread chaos and damage they have caused. They major victims of this horrific policy was the white working -class.
For all their retarded and juvenile 6th-form class-war rhetoric, the white liberal left middle-class despise ordinary white working class people and God forbid any of them should ever move next door or pollute the same schools where young Tarquin or Sophie are situated.
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#110:
"This is exactly the argument that the anti's have been "discouraged" from having during the last 10 years of mass immigration."
Who did this discouraging? How? Do you think there are any mainstream commentators who are arguing in favour of completely uncontrolled immigration?
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#83 junai83
Thanks for that - I thought I might get someone jumping up and down and accusing me of racism. You didn't let me down...
If racism means that I dislike other people purely due to the fact that they are a different race or colour, then I am blatantly not racist, as I have many friends of various races and colours. Ergo, I am not racist.
It seems to me that people would sooner point and yell 'racist' than face up to the fact that in the space of maybe one or two more generations, our children will be learning the Qur’an and praying to Allah five times a day. If you're happy with that, then fine, but I, and many 'white, working class' Brits are definitely not. I voted Labour in because, like a lot of people, I was under the impression that they represented the 'working classes', and that our 'lot' would be improved under a Labour government. To say that I voted my MP in, so I should be happy with mass immigration is just ridiculous. If the Labour manifesto had stated that Labour intended to let in millions of immigrants then I wouldn't have voted for them, would I? It's ok for tree-hugging do-gooders like your good self to go around extolling the virtues of a Utopian Multi-Cultural society, but we don't live in one. What we do have is a Country where the 'indigenous' population feel swamped by people who are only here because they think that the streets are paved with gold. What good to us are Somalian goat herders or criminals from Nigeria who are only here to rip us off? Or Islamic fundamentalists who want an Islamic State in the UK? I'm not advocating rounding people up and gassing them - I just want a limit on the numbers of immigrants who come here (to what is, after all, an ISLAND), and the return of people who's views are diametrically opposed to ours. How can a Country function when it consists of, on one side, people who wish to live in a secular society where science is responsible for showing us the truth, and argument is thrashed out through debate, and on the other, people who believe that God is on their side, anyone who does not agree with their view should be killed, and that all anyone needs to know is contained in a book written by unknown authors about some mythical deity?
The answer is - it can't. So, in conclusion my friends - I am not racist. I'm just slightly concerned that the country where my ancestors have lived for thousands of years and have fought in two World Wars to protect, is about to be sacrificed to religious bigots by the government I voted in, whilst the uneducated worry about who's going to win the X-Factor, and the educated left-wing look the other way yelling 'racist' every two minutes at people like myself who actually CARE!!! I rest my case, m'lud.
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#116 Thanks for your post, I always knew rascism was alive and kicking in this country, how insulting!
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@ 116. Woolfbane, agree 100%.
Nos. 117 & 122: ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country. If you do nothing for your country, then you have no right to anything in return and can't be surprised when better qualified and more motivated foreign workers come and take your place. Life is about the survival of the fittest.
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Are you listening you white unemployed?
Some people think you are "offensive, dirty British wasters"
Nice to know one's place in this multicultural society.
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RE: 115. DisgustedOfMitcham2
"But anyway, let's say for the sake of argument that it's true that rates for building workers have been cut in half."
So, is it the Labour party MP or the Guardian columnist who might be lying?
"That's bad news if you're a builder, ..."
Yes, very. Doubly so, since their earnings probably weren't that great to begin with.
" but it's good news for pretty much anyone else, isn't it?"
Fairly obviously, no it isn't.
"In general, competition is good for a healthy economy."
In this particular case the "good" would include -
1. A big drop in the spending power of the local building workers which is bad for them, their families and the local economy
2. The very real risk that they will be pushed onto benefits - making them a drain on the taxpayer.
3. The possibility that living on benefits may become a way of life (especially for their children) making them a permanent drain on the taxpayer.
The money that is no longer spent on local builders is now either in the hands of immigrant workers or the employer. This leads us on to
4. The employer might spend it on foreign investments, holidays, imported luxury cars and so on, so that the money is lost not just from the local economy but to the whole UK. Given how many UK businesses are now foreign owned this is actually quite likely.
5. The immigrant worker may save the money and eventually go home - so again the money is lost to the UK. Alternatively, they may stay indefinitely and regularly send money back to the old country. These payments are called remittances and according to the BBC are an important source of foreign earnings for several countries ie a significant loss to ours.
Points 2 and 4 combined should be familiar. This is the same trick the banks have pulled where profits and benefits are privatised but costs and burdens are socialised ie pushed off onto the tax payer.
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#83 junai39
Sorry, I forgot an example of white british people being treated like 2nd class citizens.
In 2007, on the Mowmacre Estate in Leicester, a number of immigrants were moved into council flats that had been provided for them very shortly after arriving in our wonderful country. They were completely redecorated, and filled with nice new furniture, complete with household goods, such as TVs, fridges etc. Mowmacre is not a wealthy part of the City (I'm beginning to wander if Leicester HAS any wealth parts! Only joking, there's one. I live there. Not really, there's more than one. Honest).
The people who lived on the estate were rightly outraged. Not because they're racist junai39, but because of the UNFAIRNESS. They have lived here all their lives, worked hard, (some of 'em, anyway), and had paid their taxes. Probably. Their mothers and fathers had fought in the war to stop the Nazis imposing a fascist state, and now immigrants were moving in, complete with free stuff bought by the taxpayers!! Needless to say, the flats were broken into, and the goods were removed to be shared out amongst the local residents. Theft! I hear some of you shout. Correct! I shout back, but Justified! That's an example of Brits being treated like 2nd class citizens by their own council. I hope that small example is acceptable.
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Hants_gw, 63: "I have no problem with immigrants taking jobs as television newsreaders, Guardian newspaper columnists or local government chief executives - and thereby driving down the salaries for those jobs, preferably very steeply. Indeed, I would positively welcome it."
Quite. We'd hear the middle classes yelling very loudly if their jobs (and their comfortable suburbs and country towns) were affected. That would make the politicians listen too. Suddenly it would become a serious problem.
OwlsandDoughnuts: employers can and do pay less than the minimum wage to people who are used to much worse conditions than a room in a cheap overcrowded house.
DisgustedOfMitcham2: Low wages lead to a downward spiral of people not being able to afford to go shopping and therefore shops shutting down etc. I'd also add that, having had Polish workers sent round by a bathroom fitter, i narrowly avoided being electrocuted!
Bear_in_the_Bull expresses the view I've frequently heard on similar threads: a gleeful delight that we are being punished for the behaviour of earlier generations.
Somehow no one else is expected to pay for their ancestor's wrongdoing. And we don't gain any merit for the good things our ancestors did. And of course it's only the working class that have to pay, even if they gained nothing from imperialism.
But at least people like Bear_in_the_Bull are openly hostile. I'm more irritated by people pretending this is somehow good for us.
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#83 jumai39
One last thing, in the 1940s we were busy fighting the Nazis to stop them taking over our country and subjugating us under fascism. We had to use force to stop them. This is exactly the same as the invasion we are facing today by Islam, only they are sneaking in under the guise of immigration and multiculturalism. The only aim of Islam is to take over the world. This is fact. However, I'm not allowed to criticise Islam, because, according to you, that's racist, (although Islam is NOT a race). So, why were the population of England in the 40s not declared racist for their obvious opposition to Germans wanting to live here?
Germans come in - Fascist State. Muslims come in - Fascist state (only existing in the middle ages). It's exactly the same!
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Woolfbane (#116) "The days of white supremacy are over"
Only if you don't look very closely enough cf. #5 alas. Immigration is used as a tool of group economic/political warfare. If you listen carefully to the gleeful 'far-right' Dutch MP visiting Britain, you will hear him say that his basic message is anti-Islam, because it threatens freedoms. That is, he is a right-wing (anarchistic) politician. Libertarians are anarchists, i.e pro the free-market and anti-regulation. This makes consumerism easier as does low-skilled immigration (it puts pressure on the indigenous low skilled population as others have pointed out, i.e it keeps wages down). It isn't concern for the nationals at all, it's fear of authoritarianism, i.e regulation, family values and opposition to debt/usury which comes with Islam. This is quite subtle. This Dutch MP is pro Israel. To see what is going on you have to see right wing=free-market, and national socialism=left-wing welfare state + regulation. Liberal-Democratic populations are feed NewSpeak.
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#125 hants_gw Yes I agree with your post. And put more simply, we all pay three or four times for work done here. First to cover the benefit being paid to indigenous non workers, then we pay the foreign worker to do the work. And then we pay for the benefits e.g. child benefit to european workers. And then we pay out yet again to people on low wages who get FIS because the employer won't pay a living wage, and don't tell me anyone here can live on £5.80 an hour. I don't expect any poster on here is! So it's not a win win situation for us at all.
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#125:
"So, is it the Labour party MP or the Guardian columnist who might be lying?"
I don't know about the specifics of this one, but experience would suggest that it's highly likely they both are.
As for your other points, those seem to be the classic arguments for protectionism. As for me, I'll take the free market. Yes, it can be harsh in the short term, but in the long term, it tends to be better all round than the alternative. Have a look what happened in the Soviet Union when they thought they could do without free markets.
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@ 125. hants_gw
Except that you're forgetting that the immigrant worker is a "taxpayer" and will as such be paying tax on his earnings which will go towards paying the benefits of the unemployed local builder.
The immigrant worker will also, in order to find work, have had to overcome a number of obstacles which the local builder never has to face, e.g. language, culture, higher living costs, and discrimination from some sections of the population to immigrants/foreigners. Is it the fault of the migrant worker that the builder is put out of business by the forces of free market competition?
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#126:
Just wondering if you have a reliable source for your story about the immigrants being given all that preferential treatment? The "free TVs for immigrants" bit sounds suspiciously like an urban myth.
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aardvark12 (#128) "One last thing, in the 1940s we were busy fighting the Nazis to stop them taking over our country and subjugating us under fascism. We had to use force to stop them. This is exactly the same as the invasion we are facing today by Islam, only they are sneaking in under the guise of immigration and multiculturalism. The only aim of Islam is to take over the world."
They're trying to stop people destroying themselves. That's essentially what the National Socialists and Stalinists were trying to do in WWII. It was in fact a war against anarchism as Bolshevism in the guise of the COMINTERN. You will need to think about this....
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#132 And how much tax does this immigrant worker contribute on a yearly wage of say £10,000 to £12,000? I would say very very little, so all the benefits he recieves, e.g. health, education, housing, libraries, child care, infrastructure, the rest of us pay for! And then there's all the illegal immigrants, roughly 1 - 2 million of them they don't contribute anything, but undercut even the legal immigrant.
And your second paragraph sounds very Mrs Thatcher and Norman Tebbit to me, what is it, get on your bike, time again. And the reason the builder is out of work is because the indigenous people are broke, and can't afford his services, only the bankers can. And they all use foreign labour.
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#134 JJ They're trying to stop people destroying themselves.
Ha,ha, JJ once those Taliban get their hands on all those nukes in Pakistan, we'll all be destroyed! So I don't quite follow your arguement. Of course I might be completely misunderstanding you! I often do ; )
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#134
I would gladly think about it if only I knew what you were on about. Unfortunately I don't have a PhD in European History and the Struggle of the Proletariat. I have read 'Atlas Shrugged' by Ayn Rand though.
By 'They', do you mean that Islam is trying to stop people destroying themselves by taking them over, and then doing it for them?
That's a very kind offer, but I'd sooner look after my own destiny. That means that they can all go home now safe in the knowledge that we have no intention of destroying ourselves. At least not intentionally.
I've probably missed your point completely.
It's lovely intellectualising over this, but 'at the end of the day', as they say, I'd rather not have a Mosque at the end of my street, and neither, I assume would you. This is England, and I don't want to be woken up by some bloke yelling the adhan through a loudspeaker from the top of a Minaret thank you very much.
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@126 aardvark12
What a heartwarming story, and yet you wonder why the poor inhabitants of council estates are looked down on.
This is a ridiculous story of petty jealousy, thuggery and theft. I would hope the vandals involved saw the inside of a cell over this.
Why are you owed a council house? Why do the rest of us owe you a tv?
Damn well get out there and work for it.
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#137
"This is England, and I don't want to be woken up by some bloke yelling the adhan through a loudspeaker from the top of a Minaret thank you very much."
I'm pretty sure you'd get an ASBO for that...
Your fear of Islam is hilarious to me. You really, honestly, think that the tiny percentage of people in this country that are Muslim would have any chance whatsoever of forcing it on the rest of us?
Most of the younger generations have little but contempt for any/all religion, good luck to them but in the face of mass disinterest if god or morality they're on to a loser there.
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#138 Yes I see where you're coming from theft etc.
Why are you owed a council house? Why do the rest of us owe you a tv?
Again I'll turn the question around, why is an immigrant allowed any of these things? Why don't they work for say 5 years, pay tax and NI and earn it like the poor old indigenous Brit does? I didn't realise how indoctrinated against the WWC this country has become!
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As a Councillor in New Parks (check my details out on Twitter) I, along with others, co-operated extensively with Mark both before and during his visit.
To say that we are disappointed with the end products - both the news report and this article - is a massive understatement.
First of all, the sample of residents interviewed by Mark was hardly representative of the New Parks community. If they were, the BNP vote would number several thousands (instead of the actual figure of 788 in 2007), and I wouldn't hold the office that I do.
Secondly, Mark placed rather too much emphasis on the views of drinkers in a local pub - a venue which has been largely unchanged since it opened in the 1960s. And indeed, accents apart, the comments from the clientele would have done Alf Garnett proud. But many other residents treat the saloon-bar bigots with contempt they deserve, instead of venerating them like the distressingly-gullible scribe.
There were many other members of the New Parks community who made considerable efforts to speak to Mark, and indeed went to considerable lengths to accommodate him, yet were completely ignored. It appeared to them, and to me, that the gist of the report was largely preconceived.
Much was made about the extent of adult illiteracy in the area. However, it's a problem which Leicester City Council, partner bodies and many residents themselves are working hard to address - hence the investment in local schools and the construction of the new Library Centre due to open next March (which, strangely enough, Mark also chose to overlook).
In fact, Mark appeared determined to disregard the positive aspects of life in New Parks completely.
Mark concludes by saying he wishes to "foster a thoughtful and intelligent debate about one of the key issues affecting the United Kingdom."
So do I.
But I'm seeing precious little evidence of thoughtful and intelligent debate here.
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For # 139
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5621482.ece
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Here we go again the lost white working class and how they have been let down by their white Government's time and time again and if its not the black, brown, or Chinese man its the white man from Ireland Scotland or some where in the EU endless whinging and moaning about this races change and as London is the capital its huge and takes loads of money to keep it rich that is why major banks are there. When the industrial revolution decided that it could make more money for the rich in other countries that they had colonised they up sticks and went were their wealth is, leaving Great Britian with back waters and people scraping a living as best as they can, those who did not want this went with their lord and masters and colonized other country were they were not wanted nor their views nor them but the rifle is quicker than the spear. The British who were left behind still kissed up to Parliament and their German royal family even in war both wars coursed by the Germans our royal family changed their name to Windsor and we went to war for them and have been doing so ever since.
Now the Govenment which is run by gamblers and thieves and criminals sell us down the river as they have always done and what do the working class do but point and blame other working class from other countries trying to earn a living by working for much less we can go to their country and work for less but we have already done this so we turn on those who come here and blame them for the world situation, so nothing has changed. Your Government's are to blame that is why they are paid to keep the have to much safe from the have nothings all Western countries are the same and the reason they have others come in to the country is they know the old chestnut will come out and the white working class will have someone below them to blame and not blame them.
Time to grow up and do something and stop becoming talking heads like those who rule you. All white and do not care in most cases about any one who lives passed Watford Gap.
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#142:
So does that mean you seriously think we are all going to be forced to convert to Islam within the next few years? As Gothnet says, that is actually pretty hilarious.
Here's another link for you:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8189231.stm
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#69 is right that there needs to be a welfare system that doesn't incentivise not working.
However, immigration is also a problem outside of that. Not only does it reduce the wage for a given role (if someone will do it cheaper from another country it reduces the rate that will be paid).
But also everyone has an impact on society in terms of cost - low-paid people are a net burden since they don't pay enough tax to offset the cost to the state, reducing population is the only answer.
We don't do that because voting clout in the EU is based on population. And also because it solves some short-term economic problems (short-sighted thinking). And then there are pressures from political cronies in big business who always want a cheap source of labour to get rich from (so we need politics to be funded centrally, not by contributors with an agenda).
So make people work for their benefits. Someone's idea above of non-military national service has merit. Somehow we MUST reduce benefits to a level that makes working essential in order to enjoy a lifestyle over mere survival. Reducing benefits includes a reduction in the entitlement to housing. Some form of state-sponsored hostels maybe... something that is unattractive enough to make people want to get out while still providing for their basic needs.
And let's be clear - providing basic needs is what welfare SHOULD be about. Go much further and there always be those who sign up for a lifelong holiday - and many of those will moan and whinge while they do it.
So... you want to have 5 kids by different fathers, ok... here's your room in this hostel with some other people in the same boat. No free council house and privacy and independence for life. You want that, you work. I suspect few would get to point of having 5 kids - at least when you've got one you have a chance to go to work and move on in life.
And all tehse mothers with kids in one place... it eleiminates the argument that they can't afford childcare while they go to work. They work co-operatively... one minds the kids while the rest are at work and takes a cut of the wages. That's how society works, co-operation for the common good.
At the same time we need to change the mindset of those who are living in the past and will look no further than manufacturing work, warehouse work etc. Thsoe days are gone, you cannot be choosy if yo have no skills.
And if you have no skills... why did you turn down a free education a kid in Africa would sell their soul for? It is undoubtedly cultural:
1. Some walks of life will laugh at those who try to better themselves, call them "nerdy" and "uncool". Strange but true.
2. The growing desire for instant success. Kids these days all believe they will be the next footballer or pop star. They have no intention of working when others can loaf in luxury. They believe that they have a "right" to fame and fortune based on no effort, no talent and none of anything else that's worthwhile. The media has to takme a lot of the blame for this with their endless reality tv rubbish and glorification of the easy-come lifestyle.
How do you make them see that it almost certainly won't happen and tehy need a backup plan?
How do you make people see that that job where they are better off on benefits leads to skills, experience and THEN to a job that pays better etc?
How do you avoid the people who then become unemployable at a relatively early age, who just won't or can't do a job even if they get one?
You have to make it happen. No amount of persuasion will work, they do not understand so you have to make it so that they are better off by working even if that mans that they are on the breadline if they don't at least pick up the trash or sort the recycling to qualify for community work-related additional benefit top-up payments. Or payments for attending a training course.
No party will get elected on that platform - all the wasters will immediately switch to someone else. They all think they are going to get an extra dole out or a state-manufactured job. It ain't gonna happen. Communism and old Labour tried that and it failed spectacularly.
So how do we get there? Maybe we need it to be done at a time like this. Outgoing PM, unpopular... take one for team UK, do the necessary and retire into obscurity ultimately being remembered by history for the selfless act? Never going to happen.
Best we can hope for is that the ioncoming Govt does it early enough in their term of office (and hard enough) that it will have paid dividends by the next election or has been forgotten.
Lots of sense being talked in this thread by the way. Politicians would do well to read it.
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Disclaimer: I am white, I consider myself very liberal with regard to everyone's rights and actually love the fact that this is a multi-racial country. I find it incredible that up until recently some people thought they were better than others because of the colour of their skin, and some still do. But the multi-racial attitude does not necessarily extend to multicultural. When I look around my office there are a myriad of different tints, facial shapes and ethnic backgrounds. But the only people that stick out are the ones that do not speak good English. Now it's good to have some diversity of course, because without it we all think with one mind and "follow the leader" - we all know where that one ends up (see Somalia/Taliban Afghanistan). But language is one thing that should be impressed on those that come to live in the UK. You speak the language and you will be more easily accepted, it's really worth doing.
But I do think that the a lot of the white working class do have a point about the sheer NUMBERS of people coming into the UK. Bred into all our genes is the instinctive threat of an invasion by other tribes, and this is what is seen by someone when their new neighbour is a different race.
My own position is that we need some immigration, but it should be low-level so that the fear instinct doesn't turn into racist attacks. I'm not even sure the government don't use the influx of immigrants as a fear tactic to stop people rebelling against the gradual creep into a surveillance society.
When challenged about immigration, most politicians hide behind EU rules, I say to them simply take whatever fine they give us. Wouldn't it be so much better if instead of a lot of immigrants coming in to a hostile reception, smaller numbers were welcomed?
I think that most readers will confirm my view that they themselves (and by extension the general population) have become more accepting of people of a different colour over the last couple of decades. Can you honestly say you always think about a person's skin colour when you're talking to them? The acceptance has come about by the fact that society hasn't broken down (unless you're a tabloid reader and let's face it they've been saying this will happen for the last 30 years) "despite" the increased number of non-white people, and now we have plenty of non-white sporting heroes and personalities
If you want evidence of the acceptance of different races in this country then refer to the outraged reaction of most of us to the Spanish football supporters racially abusing two England players a couple of years back. The point is that the England supporters clearly saw those black players as "being on their team", which of course, they are. That's a real test of acceptance.
I have to mention an Asian friend at work who recently said "I think that's a case of the pot calling the kettle black" to which I replied "are you allowed to say that? Isn't that racist?" Laughter all around!
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Gothnet (139) -No one's had an asbo for noise from mosques round here. Nor is any action taken against houses being used as unofficial mosques, with all the noise and double-parking that brings. Nor against the gangs of youths who hang around outside one of the local mosques, hassling women and throwing litter into people's gardens (including beer cans - very devout!).
And I wish "Most of the younger generations have little but contempt for any/all religion". If only. The women I see around here wearing hijabs, or covered head-to-foot in niqabs or burkas, are young, not middle-aged or old. I'm presuming the ones covering their faces are young as they're usually with small children or in a group of other young women. Sometimes they're in a family group with parents in western dress. Plenty of young men around in islamist dress too. I wish it was dying out, but it's the opposite.
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129. At 2:14pm on 16 Oct 2009, JadedJean wrote:
Woolfbane (#116) "The days of white supremacy are over"
Only if you don't look very closely enough cf. #5 alas. Immigration is used as a tool of group economic/political warfare. If you listen carefully to the gleeful 'far-right' Dutch MP visiting Britain, you will hear him say that his basic message is anti-Islam, because it threatens freedoms.
******************
Yes he is a person to be ignored BUT, read the words on the posters of those objecting to his visit. The 'anti-racist' posters saying "Islam Will Dominate The World". You have to wonder who might be the problem here.
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ecolizzy (#137) "So I don't quite follow your argument"
The Taliban are fighting off Liberal-Democracy. Look at the direction Pakistan has been heading since the end of Military rule. Liberal-Democracy leads to below replacement level TFRs. This ends up slowly destroying those who promote it, especially the brighter in their midst. This is very hard for many people in Liberal-Democracies to grasp, but it is a fact. Some nations like Singapore tried to address this from the 60s on. Many of their intelligentsia regarded their own government as fascist for doing so! It is most peculiar. Germany tried to do the same in the 1930s.
If this was not so hard to grasp, it would not be happening.
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aardvark12 (#137) "I would gladly think about it if only I knew what you were on about."
All the more reason to follow the links and click on the username? ;-)
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Think-about-it #127 writes "Bear_in_the_Bull expresses the view I've frequently heard on similar threads: a gleeful delight that we are being punished for the behaviour of earlier generations."
Scarcely - my intention was more subtle - to draw attention to the irony behind the ignorance of some more racist factions in society.
As to the notions expressed by others about attitudes towards the "white unemployed", I think, perhaps, we should distinguish between the white unemployed-through-no-fault-of-their-own (for whom I have much sympathy) and the rather less desirable 9abd thankfully smaller) white unemployable faction 9perhaps deserving of something a little closer to contempt.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The Thing is - the debate is complex. Some more numbers:
1. Volume - Limits to Growth, by nation, by region and by locality - but see James Lovelock
2. Access to services and deportation - e.g. probationary periods, criminality vs human rights etc.
3. Prioritisation - e.g. funding and support for sectarian institutions, translation services, celebration of festivals etc.
4. Relative Values - e.g. homosexuality, gender, darwinism
5. Identity - notions of nationality, heritage, history, ethnicity, humour
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Say "multi-culturalism is beneficial" and it is seen as enlightened. Say "multi culturalism is damaging" and it is seen as 'ignorant'.
But they are both equally unsupportable and ignorant statements... but two very different responses to expect. This is evidence that rational argument and debate have been snubbed out when it comes to this topic. The people in Mark's article have become helpless and angry as a result.
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This is like going to Glastonbury, finding some goths, and reporting that Glastonbury is a 'goth festival'.
'Most goths feel like a persecuted minority,' says the BBC's Mark Easton. 'I have spoken to four. They tell me that this festival was set up for them. But now no one listens.'
Asking to be referred to only by her 'goth' name, Lucretia no longer feels she has a voice. 'We are definitely a minority. Except by the Clock Tower. Which is where you found us.'
And so on.
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The higher birth-rate of kids (especially) with low cognitive ability and Anti-Social Personality Disorder etc, is a problem in the White Working Class. The current Welfare State system does not help this. We need to licence having babies. Minority group higher than replacement level TFRs are a problem, but it's right not to loose sight of the fact that White lower SES/IQ birth rate is a major (dysgenic) problem, perhaps the major problem. Some of these problem kids are just easier to spot in BME groups because they are easier to see, but there doesn't to be a genuine higher prevalence rate of anti-social behaviour in the Black Caribbean BME group (this shows up in offending behaviour and in school exclusion data). This is not the case in the two S Asian Muslim groups interestingly, although they are marked by lower mean ability. It is not a problem with Chinese British, nor Indian British either. That is, it is not an 'immigrant' or skin colour issue per se.
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The UK has since the mid eighties neglected and ignored the (white) working class population. Yet it has, in the main, been their blood that has been split in Iraq and Afghanistan defending an American vision of democracy. Whilst at home in the UK a policy of political correctness and an open door immigration policy have meant that the UK is now populated by a Heinz variety community.
There is no evidence that supports the notion that either culturally or financially the UK is any the richer as a result. Apart from anything else how can we call ourselves a nation if the people in the UK have so many different cultures, beliefs and origins?
I am not a racist or even a nationalist, as I am sure somewhere in my past I will have foreign ancestry. However I have lived in many countries and always considered myself a guest in a foreign country and have appreciated the differences and never wanted to replicate the UK in my adopted home. However I have for the last 10 years, felt a foreigner in my own country. Not so much because of the diverse nationalities now inhabiting it, but because of the bizarre way in which in is run.
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THE WHITE WORKING CLASS, SUNGLASSES AND SATANISM
Sunglasses in Dublin in October? A re-run of MJ's funeral to reinforce CD sales and promote the X-Factor etc.
The Jewish (The Viper's Brood according to gangsters John the B. and Jesus of N.) genius was to create an ideology for the outgroup which promoted both celibacy amongst its intelligentsia and fecundity amongst its cognitively-challenged.
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Interested to see if my comment makes it through the moderators - I certainly hope I wasn't offensive, and I don't think it was defamation, as I was merely naming the elected councillors someone claimed to be
somebody is a tad childish
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I think I heard it all on Any Questions Radio 4 last night. One panel member said that she found Geert Wilders, and any BNP member she had ever met, so unaesthetically pleasing that she thought they should be allowed air time so that we can see that they are ugly on the outside and inside. Now tell me this, supposing even convicted islamo-terrorists were spoken about in this way, what do you suppose would be the reaction of the westminster village idiots?
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EcoLizz - my previous comment about 58 - that was my point, if you ask me what effect multiculturalism has had on my life I would say above all the fact that, as stated on Radio 4 last night, Britain is no longer a country of absolute freedom of speech. The influx of other cultures has directly restricted the culture of satire and open debate that already existed [and began with the Thing, was followed by Chaucer and Shakespeare, the British Parliament and some eminent universities]. Some people welcome this change, I don't. Who knows if a post that is removed is actually illegal, all the mods can do is weed out what they consider might be classed as illegal if it went to court. I don't know if they have law graduates at the higher level - i.e. posts that seem to take a long time to be removed or, sometimes, published belatedly. And even if the process were accurate, it is still not transparent. It is psychologically very agressive to provide the poster with no feedback as to what phrase has been called into question.
My problem with allowing any and every taboo/sensibility is that logically, everyone in society ends up having to live according to the creed with the most taboos/sensibilities! If on the other hand we were to consider that the absence of a taboo is also a sensibility, that would be quite different, wouldn't it? And when you consider that the absence of most taboos, as previously existed, was the product of several hundred years of political development, in which many sacrficed much, it seems a naively ungrateful and rather short-sighted policy.
Such is postmodernism.
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#95. The first inhabitants of the U.K. the Celts, No. Wrong. The Celts were invaders too.
fought under Queen Boadicca in Kent No. Wrong. The Iceni were in East Anglia.
against the incoming Romans Nope they'd been in residence a while.
terrified the invaders as reported by Tacitus, and won Nope Boedicia lost, big time.
Along came some Vikings No. Saxons. about four hundred years later -the daughter of the current Celt ruler fancied one, married him, and her husband fought alongside the Celts to keep out more arrivals when the harvests failed. Her husband Horsa and her brother Cantigern are buried on the hillside above Aylesford in Kent. An unverifiable version of the Hengist and Horsa myth?
In the sixteenth century and for a while before , huge chunks of France were British (hooray) - Mary Queen of Scots said she would die with Calais engraved on her heart. No it was 'Bloody' Mary I.
If the writer of this blog has only just noticed that folk come and go between the U.K. and other places, then his information is not tremendous news - he is about two thousand years out of date.
If you are going to deliver lectures on history please learn some first!
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#161 wappaho Yes I think that's true, it is the lose of free speech I can't imagine Monty Python or Dave Allen, or even Spike Milligan being made for TV now, it just wouldn't happen, just not PC! Another thing this country has lost is a sense of humour, we used to laugh at anything, now you feel guilty and think should I be laughing. I think your point at living to the lowest sensibility is very interesting, I hadn't thought of it like that, but it's true. And yet the cruelty inflicted in general around the world seems to increase daily.
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I am white,christian and a woman and feel discriminated against more in the first two areas than the third.
I am white working class and employed as a professional,I am not thick or ignorant and can clearly see that I am not of a valued group in this country. Why? Because of what I am I have no voice to express my concerns regarding alien cultures without being branded as intolerant or racist.I am not allowed to express my genuine opinions if they do not conform with the PC brigades take on the issues.
Our culture ,as the host culture, must always take precedence.It must not be interferd with by those who do not conform to it.
The politicians and religious leaders in this country can only be charged with serious neglect of the majority and are presiding over what I call "The Great Shame".
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I like the phrase The Great Shame.
Here's another thought that never gets raised. Only a very tiny percent of people in Britain benefited from the British Empire. Right up until the 1950s, the lowest economic groups were very poor. There was a peasantry of some sort up until the Enclosures, which removed the means to a rural livelihood for landless citizens. During the Industrial Revolution urban poverty sank to new depths but at least (as I like to point out to those who demonstrate against GAP and other clothing) we finally came to our senses and introduced child labour reforms. Then there was the depression in the thirties. It was not actually till the Embourgeoisement Thesis in the 1950s that poverty at the lower end of the econimc scale diminished. But to hear some people carry on you would think that everyone in Britain has been living like kings for the past 200 years.
The post war period saw the rising strength of organisation of labour. Thatcher's policies without doubt were a determined effort to remove any chance that labour could gain further power within society. And the lower end of the economic scale has been dropping back down since the 1990s.
Here's another thought - we hear a lot about aspiration. Supposing you want to be an electrician because the work attracts you. How are you supposed to aspire? It's a perfectly decent job but it's not going to increase in income unless you start growing a national business, but more importantly it is classed as skilled manual. Sometimes when people talk about citizens bettering themselves, I think, if all the trades people took up jobs in offices in order to 'aspire', who would keep the buildings working? It's all a nonsense. The bonuses that banks pay don't belong to them. People who work in the city are able to do so because someone else is maintaining the buildings. Thus the profits from banking are as much the ownership of the people who have maintained the buildings that the deals were done in as they are of the people who did the deals. IMO. We are after all a society, are we not? The argument that people in the city come up with is 'anyone can work in the city if they want, why should I be punished just because I chose to and they didn't?' - i.e. they unwittingly justify rather than refute my argument - we do different jobs for the same end, to make a decent society to live in. That is really the only point of being alive that I have come across.
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EcoLizz. This morning on BBC breakfast they covered the story of Enid Blyton's grandaughter writing a new Noddy story - without guess who - and the next item was to introduce Andrew Marr's line-up for this morning and he said 'Guess who I have on the programme, Big Ears!', to which there was stunned PC silence, and so Andrew Marr pointed out that it was a joke and the two presenters said they'd thought it was, but they didn't want to offend him!
I'd laugh if it wasn't so sad. We don't just lose the humour, we lose the common ground.
In tribal/extended family societies, all affiliations are to family members. That 'common ground' in the public sphere of nuclear christian societies was very important because it also unperpinned the notion of 'owning up', a cultural more which has been replaced by 'not my problem', unless of course the person is in the processing of receiving funds, in which case it's 'no problem'!
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It is not only the poor white population that thinks this way,believe me very many other indigenous white British feel the same,only they are too afraid to say it out lowed because of the immediate threat of being branded "racist".
Where ever I go,who ever I talk to,there is an underlying resentment of the flood of immigration that has been allowed in the last 12 years.Because of the PC brigade this issue will never be debated fully and openly.
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If the Government can't even spell Weston-super-Mare, what hope is there for its neglected inhabitants?
To be fair, it is outside the M25...
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Why is that when I denounce the farcical lies of Christianity I'm a free-thinker, but when I denounce the farcical lies of Islam I'm a beastly islamophobe?
The history of Europe in the 15th and 16th centuries shows what religion can do when it gets secular power. If you doubt me, look at the atrocities of the Thirty Years War.
We've finally conquered fundamentalist Christianity in this country - no way are we going to accept fundamentalist Islam.
I understand and grudgingly accept that people believe this dangerous nonsense when they've had it drummed into them from birth, but no power on Earth will stop me from proclaiming that it's nonsense.
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169
Have you ever been told you're an islamophobe (by anyone in an official sense) for saying that it's nonsense? Your post is still here isn't it?
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Shall we give it a little time, Tarquin? After all, it had only been there for 40 minutes when you posted...
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That's interesting. This blog has been unusual in not attracting the 'islamophobia/racism' trolls who do their best to close down debate on most blogs that touch on this subject.
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@106
the wonderful thing about the BBC is that it keeps all of its old online news reports available.
In a report(sometime between 2001 and 2003)the BBC discussed a claim by the BNP that Leicester would become a white minority city in the very near future.The BBC Dismissed the claims as lies designed to gain the BNP votes at the (then ) upcoming local elections and said that the claim was also intended to cause unrest.
Are the BNP really the liars on this issue?
Search the BBC's very own news website ,the report is still there.
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@119 Well said ,
In recent times it was the middle classes that complained about the costs of tradesmen,what better way to reduce the bills than to import a few million that would work for pennies.
Who has benefitted from mass immigration?
Not the "Working" working class
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If it is true that a reading age of 7 is common in New Parks, then that is the problem, not immigration. It seems unlikely that such a low reading age could be entirely due to low IQ, a lot of it must be due to poor education. Some way must be found to communicate with the local people and make them aware of the facilities available to them. "Well done" to those who go from door to door attempting to talk.
What the people of New Parks want most of all, though, is not explanations but jobs, sadly the sorts of jobs no longer so widely available. Until they will continue to blaim the immigrants.
What seemed odd for such a multi-cultural area was that I only saw one non-white face in the report, a sign of how racially divided the place is, perhaps.
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Places like Leicester aren't examples of multi-culturalism. Leicester is a centre for an uprooted mono-culture. Once upon a time people came to these shores to live the way the British lived, ensuring that they and their children fully integrated in the dynamic society which became richer for their input. Now great tracts of this land are in the hands of alien cultures, devoid of any signs of the original inhabitants and decidedly no longer British. This isn't immigration; this is invasion.
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171 aizoon
Still there a day later - in a related matter, my post has been in referral for about 3 days...don't criticise a councillor's idiocy it would seem
173.noitmem80
Could you please provide the title of the article, it's hard to search for 'BNP' and 'Leicester' without finding more than I really want to see
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I am appalled at the arrogance of Peter Hain who dares to instruct us that BNP democratically elected representatives should not be allowed to make their case on our nationally subscribed to public media. Let us look at the history of this Peter Hain. He is a person of Kenyan birth who came to this country specifically to expound his own political opinions and as a result was convicted of criminal conspiricy in 1971. Having clambered into the upper echelons of the Labour party he illegally failed to declare donations for his campaign for the deputy leadership of the Labour party and as a result had to resign his cabinet position. Now THIS convicted criminal is lecturing US on what restrictions should be placed on our legally elected and furthermore indigineous representives! Would that he had remained in his native land to alter the political system there that has led to murder and worse instead of poking his nose into the affairs of this country and treating our laws with contempt.
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This excellent blog has so far not focused on the effect of the loss of family structure in the white benefit dependent class. Most households consist women and their children by a variety of men. These are often 3 generation households with ineffective parenting and structure. Simple things like communal meals and basic child control are completely absent. Men are conspicously absent, both because they lack fathers themselves and don't have a template for the role, and because women would rather fuss over babies than work on adult relationships.
A toxic combination of well meaning feminism and institutional dislike of men underpins the above.
A very simple way forward would be to scrap housing benefit for single parents. Messy in the short term but worth considering.
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Somebody's probably mentioned this already, but we actually need the underclass. Who else is going to mop out toilets, pick litter up and work in McDonalds? Not everyone can be the Managing Director or even middle managers.
They do have a choice though as I did coming from six generations of coal miners. Get off your backsides and do something about it and stop waiting for handouts. Develop some pride. Get on yer bike....
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The brutal truth is that people in these decaying areas are no longer the reserve army of unemployed, but simply surplus to requirements for whom neither the private nor the public sector has interest in finding work except perhaps at the individual level. Add to that the fact that neither economic nor social liberalism was ever any part of their values, and how can they feel otherwise than excluded? There are policies that might change the situation, but they are completely unacceptable to all strands of educated opinion and therefore will not be adopted unless there is a serious need to head off the parties that believe in them. Otherwise, it will remain a police rather than a political problem.
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ecolizzy wrote:
"#161 wappaho Yes I think that's true, it is the lose of free speech I can't imagine Monty Python or Dave Allen, or even Spike Milligan being made for TV now, it just wouldn't happen, just not PC!"
Do you even watch TV ?
Frankie Boyle is just one of many comedians on TV who regularly make fun of people because of their religious or political beliefs.
This idea that PC has destroyed comedy is totally untrue; the only thing that has been taken off TV has been the likes of Jim Davidson and his "Chalky" jokes that are most definitely racist and not at all funny.
Even away from TV the likes of Roy "Chubby" Brown and Bernard Manning (until he retired a few years ago) are still performing and telling the most un-PC jokes imaginable in clubs up and down the country. I’ve visited Bernard’s Embassy club on many occasions and I can guarantee that he had not changed his act at all from the one he had in the 70s.
Monty Python probably wouldn't get made today but that's more about the corporate culture within broadcasting being unwilling to take a chance on an unknown group of comedians than it is to do with PC.
verahowarth1950 wrote:
"Because of what I am I have no voice to express my concerns regarding alien cultures without being branded as intolerant or racist.I am not allowed to express my genuine opinions if they do not conform with the PC brigades take on the issues."
Yes you are, I have raised various concerns regarding these issues on many occasions yet I have never, ever been branded as intolerant or racist.
aizoon0 wrote:
"Why is that when I denounce the farcical lies of Christianity I'm a free-thinker, but when I denounce the farcical lies of Islam I'm a beastly islamophobe?"
Well your comment is still here and as yet no-one has denounced you as a beastly Islamaphobe.
See what happens when you actually make your point, people listen (or read in this case) and then offer their opinions.
I personally consider all religions a total pack of lies and find most people's interpretations of them to be ridiculous, including Islam, Judaism & Christianity. I've made this point at length on various blogs and as yet no-one has ever branded me an Islamaphobe, although I have been called the anti-Christ a few times.
To be honest, as a white working class man I have only ever experienced one form of discrimination during my life and that has been my right to access social housing.
I have been on the local housing associations list since 2001, when I first applied for a council house or flat I was told I was about 120th in the queue, when I went back there recently I was told I was now about 450th in the queue.
This has been affected by the number of new immigrants coming into the area but by far the most important factor in this has been the number of young women getting pregnant and jumping the queue, this group are almost exclusively white and working class in my area.
The other major factor has been the governments’ refusal to invest in more social housing, we're forever seeing new blocks of apartments being built in the area with a starting price of about one hundred and twenty thousand pounds but I can't remember the last time the council built some council houses or flats.
I’ve made the point before that immigration has always been used against working class people, in the 1950s the UK government was encouraging people to move to Australia and other parts of the former Empire in an attempt to retain some sort of British presence in those countries while at the same time encouraging people from some of those countries to come to the UK. Those people who left Britain generally enjoyed a much improved lifestyle, those who came to Britain were basically used as a source of cheap labour to keep wages down.
Today we see a very similar thing happening, instead of spending money training our own Doctors and Nurses the government just imports cheap ones from Africa and Asia, this not only deprives their home nations of much needed medical workers it is also undermining our own working classes as jobs like Nursing used to be a good career for many working class women who are now finding themselves stacking shelves at the local supermarket instead.
The pathways to self improvement are being taken away and all of the time the government are scratching their heads wondering why our estates are turning into war zones.
I’ve got no problem with individual immigrants, many of my friends are immigrants or the children of immigrants and I’d be very unhappy to see them kicked out of the country, at the same time I realise that we can’t keep going down the same route or we’re going to end up with a situation where two thirds of our population are both unemployed and unemployable while we continue to import more and more foreign workers.
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The white working class have been left behind in part due to their own fecklesness. In previous generations when we had a manufacturing base there were jobs for low skilled workers and this kept the economy of these estates running. Every child has access to an education in this country, and for this particular area to have a reading age of 7 is a staggering indictment of successive governments' education policy. The Ugandan Asians who arrived in the mid 70's have outperformed their white contemporaries and now occupy senior positions in all areas of the professions. Unless our workforce have the required skills those on the estates will exist rather than live fulfilling lives. We became fat on the land and thought there would be jobs for life. Welcome to reality.
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I must say that the level of discussion on this forum is far superior to that of many others. Just one last question on the subject of 'UK Islamification' that someone may be able to answer for me...
On friday last, a dutch politician (can't think of his name) was 'allowed' to visit the UK to put forward his views that Islam was backward and a threat to Western civilisation. Agree with him or not, he is allowed to express his views in a country that holds 'freedom of speech' as highly as this one does. However, why were fanatical Islamiscists allowed to demonstrate on the streets of London holding up banners saying 'Islam will take over the World', 'Behead those who criticise Islam' etc. One of them even said that if the police weren't around they would 'have had him'. If this is not inciting hatred, then I don't know what is! Freedom of speech is fine, but allowing it to the extent where people can openly threaten us cannot be good. Everything else aside, why are these (yes - a minority), allowed to denounce us openly? Is it because their 'freedom of speech' is valued more than the fact that they are blatantly hostile to us? I really don't understand why thay are allowed to get away with this. Any ideas anyone?
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Why make a point of calling us "white" working class? Many of the immigrants are Eastern European and also white. What does pigment have to do with it? Are we even denied an ethnic identity? Surely "Map of the Week: Forgotten Native English working classes" would be better! (The blog seemed to be specificaly about England not Britain.)
Otherwise I welcome the recognition of the problem shown in this article.
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Uncontrolled immigration, positive discrimination, economic downturn and increasing pressure for work and benefits, leaving a country almost bankrupt and a Society filled with ethnic and social tensions, whilst struggling to maintain a well equipped Army.
I am not talking about Britain today, I am describing the state of the Roman Empire before its collapse, plunging Europe into the dark ages.
Something to serious medidate for our 21st century politicians
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aardvark12 wrote:
why were fanatical Islamiscists allowed to demonstrate on the streets of London holding up banners saying 'Islam will take over the World', 'Behead those who criticise Islam' etc.
That would be because we have freedom of speech and freedom of expression protected by law in this country.
Regardless of how we feel about this minority groups opinions regarding Sharia Law or anything else, they still have the right to express their views in a legal demonstration.
This group are little more than an Asian equivalent to the BNP, the BNP regularly demonstrate in my area and they spout some of the most disgusting claims I've ever heard during these demonstrations and while I have taken part in counter-demonstrations near to their demonstration I do so to offer an opposing view, not because I want to deny them their right to express themselves. Equally, this group of extremist Muslims hold views I disagree with quite strongly yet I still believe they should have the right to hold and express their views.
Geert Wilders, the Dutch politician, claims that all of Islam is a threat to our Western culture, he himself is an extremist and this is why he often attracts such extreme opposing views wherever he goes.
As Newton pointed out, for every action there is an equal yet opposite reaction, Wilders claims Islam is the greatest evil in our society so obviously some Muslim's are going to consider him the greatest evil in our society.
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Greetings from Southern Arizona,
All that is being expressed on these pages is being expressed in much of The United States, principally in the southwestern part that shares a 2,200 mile long boundary with Mexico.
Immigration, legal or illegal, is the hot topic here, with all of the freight in tow: Diversity, multiculturalism, rights, employment, welfare, education, etc.
Cousins, if you succeed in sorting this out to the benefit of those who would proudly call themselves British, please call us and let us know how you did it. In the mean time, we are having no luck trying to sort wild cats in a cactus factory.
Thank you.
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@177 tarquin
despite my earlier fantastic claims about the BBC news archive i have only been able to access one BBC article regarding the Leicester issue that i mentioned previously.it does make referance to the census statistic being maniputulated by right wing groups.But it is not my intended report that was an actual news video that MAY have been a local bbc news production.
As i Previously stated the BBC claimed that the BNP warnings were false
search the bbc website for "a picture of ethnic Britain" dated 13 feb 2003
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@176
well said
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Mark:
Thanks for bringing this important story to the attention....
~Dennis Junior~
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Yet another problem to hit the WWC http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8318010.stm It will mean more unemployment for them, so just how are all these people going to be supported on benefit and with people living much longer, the pensions paid. Eventually the welfare state is going to collapse completely, and we will become a third world country. So those who say the immigrants pay for all these benefits, may I point out, a huge number of them are on minimum wage, so get more in advantages than they pay in. And one day they'll all be pensioners too and on benefits as well, so we'll need another 10 million immigrants to support them, won't we?!
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#188
You see, that's my point! There's freedom of speech, and there's freedom of speech. The extremists mentioned shouldn't be allowed freedom of speech if they're going to use it to tell us how much they hate us and that we should all convert to Islam or be executed! Surely there's a line somewhere that shouldn't be crossed. If these delightful people don't like our society, then why are they here? The answer is obvious: Because they are using our liberal attitudes to infiltrate our society, and the government will do anything to appease them. So much for the British Bulldog, and its commitment never to submit to tyranny. We're actually doing that now. If you advocate freedom of speech, then the BNP have as much right as anyone to complain about the way we're giving away our freedoms and sleepwalking to our doom. If I go out onto the street and shout about the threat of Islam, I'll be arrested. Where's my freedom of speech?!! I can recommend 'Londonistan - How Britain Has Created A Terror State Within' by Melanie Phillips if you're still not convinced...
Sharia Mortgage anyone?
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Interesting argument, but deeply flawed, in my opinion. Having seen Panorama on Monday night, exhibiting the shocking way British-born Muslims were treated on a Bristol council estate inhabited by white 'working' class youths, then watching last night's '7 days on the breadline', I can't see what the so-called forgotten 'working' class can have to whine about. You make of this life what you can - if you want to live comfortably you work hard at something, anything (legal) to provide this security. You educate yourself, attend classes, get experience. However, I was so dismayed watching the teenagers on these 2 programs - no interest whatsoever in education, no interest in even getting out of bed in the morning, no ambition. People complaining that they can't survive on £280 a week, but having widescreen TVs, numerous kids to feed and status-symbol dogs to look after....you tell me, what does that say about the 'working' class. They DON'T work, want to work or do anything to better themselves and get out of the hole they appear to be in. The amount of ignorance and apathy is staggering. I know we are going through tough times, I've been on the dole myself for the first time ever this year (luckily I'm back in work now), but some of the people interviewed have not worked for anything up to 20 years. These people have forgotten themselves through apathy and state handouts. They are in for a massive, massive wake-up call once the handouts reduce owing to cuts in public spending. Will they motivate themselves to do something then? I am sick and tired of hearing the old worn-out phrase 'work's boring'. Yes, work sometimes is very boring, no matter what you do - but it's better than doing absolutely nothing at all.
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I've just been reading some of the other comments on this board pointing the finger of blame at various political parties over the years. Can no-one see that what has happened to the 'working class' has not been as a direct result of anything any political party has done, or not done over the last 40+ years. What is happening to our society now is part of a gradual decline in prosperity, employment and GDP, linked with an exponential increase in population and demand for ever cheaper commodities. In the drive to manufacture cheaper goods we took out the most expensive component - the labour force - we either replaced it with machines, or outsourced it to countries where wages were cheaper, thus enabling our people to buy the ever cheaper goods...I'm probably going completely off-topic, but can no-one see that we engineered the circumstances of our own inexorable decline, and must learn to live with that - starting with what used to be the 'working' class. If you want a cheap LCD TV from China, you have to accept that there will not be a job for an English worker. If you want an English made TV, you must accept that because wages and overheads are much greater over here, it will cost much more to buy. Simple.
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I'm learning a lot here! I've just found that 2003 BBC report "A picture of ethnic Britain" (thanks, noitmem).
Barnie Choudhury, BBC social affairs correspondent, says
"Almost 9% of us describe ourselves as non-white compared to under six percent 10 years ago. ... A far cry from the headlines in the run up to the 2001 Census which predicted that by 2010 white people would be the ethnic minority in places like Leicester and Birmingham. This fact was used by far right groups to whip up a spectre of Britain losing its indigenous racial identity. In fact in Leicester fewer than four in 10 (36%) are ethnic minorities. Compare that with the 29% in the previous census in 1991."
The census just gives figures. It's Mr Choudhury who made (wrong) predictions. As we've now been officially told Leicester's white population will be a minority within the next few years, the headlines in the run up to the 2001 Census were correct, not just "whipped up" by the far right.
Also, Mr Choudhury describes "a slow but steady" growth and change in population. But the Census figures he quotes show the opposite -- an enormous, rapid change. From 1991 to 2001, the ethnic-minority population grew by nearly 50% (from 6% to nearly 9%). I'm not interested in people's skin colour, but I am concerned about huge unplanned changes.
I do tend to trust the BBC. And it's interesting that the figures it quoted were true. It's just that the reporter has put a misleading spin on them - almost contradicting the figures he quotes, when you come to look at them more closely. I don't like that. It's not up to the standards I expect of the BBC.
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aardvark12 wrote:
"You see, that's my point! There's freedom of speech, and there's freedom of speech. The extremists mentioned shouldn't be allowed freedom of speech if they're going to use it to tell us how much they hate us and that we should all convert to Islam or be executed!"
As Noam Chomsky says, if you do not believe in freedom of speech for those you despise then you do not believe in freedom of speech at all.
In my opinion, these people should absolutely have the right to tell us how much they hate us and that we should all convert to Islam, you still have the right to ignore them or to offer your own counter argument.
I would draw the line at -or be executed, but that is because it is incitement to commit a criminal act and should therefore come under the accepted current limitations of our freedom as already expressed in our legislation.
"If these delightful people don't like our society, then why are they here?"
Probably because most of them were born here, just as the BNP recruits young & badly educated white kids from deprived areas to act as foot soldiers, the Muslim equivalents of the BNP recruit young & badly educated Muslim kids from deprived areas too and use them as foot soldiers in their campaigns.
"If you advocate freedom of speech, then the BNP have as much right as anyone to complain about the way we're giving away our freedoms and sleepwalking to our doom."
Of course they do, just as others have the right to put on counter demonstrations and complain about the way the BNP use lies and misinformation to prove their points.
"If I go out onto the street and shout about the threat of Islam, I'll be arrested."
No you won’t.
Just as your comments are still being shown on this forum, any attempt to legally put your views across would not result in you getting arrested.
Go to Speakers Corner and knock yourself out, the Police will not only fail to arrest you, they'd act to prevent other people from stopping you exercising your rights too.
This is the real problem here, the BNP, and various other groups are putting about the idea that you can't express your views when in the real world you are allowed to express your views as long as you do so in a legal way.
As for a Sharia mortgage, I've been looking into mortgages for a while now, one of my friends recommended a Sharia mortgage that is currently available from many highstreet banks and when I checked out the details it looked like I'd be able to save over ten thousand pounds on the lifetime of the mortgage repayments. I don't know about you but that's a lot of money for me and as such I'm seriously considering taking this option when I find a new home.
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#198 Secratariat At last someone that understands a Sharia mortgage. I'm aware that Islam is against usury, but could you please explain to me who actually pays for the money you borrow. If there is little or no interest, why would anyone lend money to you? I can't understand how this is seen as a win, win situation. I'm also aware that muslims pay two and half percent of their income to their own charities, (zakat?) is that money used? You said you would gain ten thousand, but someone somewhere must lose that amount, unless you are entitle to free money. I would be grateful if you could explain it to me, thanks.
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Secratariat, a couple of years ago Muslims held a big parade through Walthamstow on Easter Day to celebrate Mohammed's birthday, finishing with a loud party in the town hall. One Christian man stood silently beside the route holding up a cross. He was ordered by police to move on, in case his presence caused a breach of the peace.
Man holding a cross in Christian country on major Christian festival. He's causing a problem? Yet we've seen on the News Islamic fundamentalists calling for non-believers to be beheaded, in violent demonstrations, but hardly any are even cautioned.
Going on from there: Waltham Forest council has recently decreed that all schools must close on the Muslim festival of Eid. And in the name of political correctness, the schools also have to close on two days that are Hindu and Sikh festivals. Even though there are very few Hindus or Sikhs in Waltham Forest, and they haven't asked for the schools to be closed!
Three extra days to arrange childcare or take time off work. As Muslim women are much less likely to work when they have children, this is a bigger problem to non-Muslim parents, who are the large majority. just one more thing to have to deal with.
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ecolizzy
There isn't one single model for Halal mortgages, there are many different types that vary due to the scholars who have been consulted by the company providing it. I'm no expert but you can get some basic information from the following link:
http://www.fancyamortgage.co.uk/IslamicMortgages/ShariahLaw.asp
"Wealth generation is not contrary to Islamic principles, but Islamic scholars insist that financial dealings should be based on a partnership model where gains and losses are shared equally between the participants."
I've looked on a few different websites and entered the amounts I was looking to borrow and compared them to the quotes I was getting from traditional type mortgages and in most cases I was looking to save anywhere between five and twelve thousand pounds.
I'm not an expert on Zakat either but there's some good information here:
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/Zakat/
You can also work out your own Zakat on the Zakat Calculator :-)
http://www.ramadhanzone.com/zakat_calculator.asp
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Th1nk-about-it
I'd agree with you that the reaction to the man with the Cross is totally out of order, I don't really understand how or why that would cause a problem.
From the Muslim friends I've got I've always understood that Jesus is a respected figure in Islam and therefore someone holding a Cross at Easter, even if it coincided with the birthday of Muhammad, would not cause any sort of offence, although for some Muslims celebrating Muhammad's birthday wouldn't be something they'd do either.
Do you know if there had been anything going on to suggest there would be any problem ?
There's a chance it could have just been a Policeman being a bit over cautious but without knowing more about it I'm at as a big a loss to explain that as you.
If the Hindu's & Sikh's haven't asked for the schools to be closed then that is probably some diversity officer going a little overboard in the local council office. The easy answer there would be to sack the diversity officer and not bother refilling the position.
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#201 Secratariat thank you very much for the information and links.
But surely this summary point at the end Islamic mortgage providers borrow money in the open market to fund Islamic mortgages. means that a Sharia mortgage is exactly the same as any other, with the same risks and interest rates? But perhaps I don't quite understand, and personally I wouldn't want a religious person involved with my mortgage! ; )
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ecolizzy
As I understand it, there are some Islamic companies who only ever lend the money they already have and do not borrow money from the money market, these would be the most strictly observed interpretation of a Halal mortgage and I'm guessing very strict Muslims would go for one of these.
Then there are traditional Western companies who offer mortgages that are themselves Halal insofar as the mortgage lender and receiver are making a deal that conforms to Sharia but the company has then got this money from the money market, this, I think, is a less strict interpretation of Sharia.
Although a few of my friends have told me that they've got a mortgage through a friend who has enough money to be able to lend it to them and this deal is then set-up in accordance with Sharia.
Like with all religions, there are many different interpretations of what is and is not Halal and this can change quite significantly depending on your denomination. This is why on all of the websites I've visited they've always had a disclaimer on them saying that you should always check out the details and make sure that it conforms to your own interpretation of what is and is not Halal.
I suppose you could compare it to Christianity where a devout Catholic wouldn't eat meat on a Friday but someone who is CofE would be happy to do so.
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#204 Secratariat thanks for all this info. : )
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Hi Secratariat, I don't think there was anything else going on (when the man stood beside the road with a cross) - there hadn't been anything going on beforehand. Although there's quite a large Christian population in Walthamstow, judging from the number of churches and people going into them, there's very little visible.
Oh there was one visible thing, but at a different time. The council sponsored an Islam Awareness Week a couple of years ago, with big marquees in Walthamstow town square. It was very obviously run by one of the fundamentalist groups, as there were women with their faces covered at the stalls - that was also the image used as publicity for the event. Even now, only a small minority of women in Walthamstow dress like that and most don't even wear hijab, that scarf that covers the head and neck (though 10 years ago you never saw a covered face and rarely saw a hijab). So the council was pushing a form of Islam that was way more extreme than practised locally.
While this was going on, a group of black Christians marched into the square, presumably without permission, and started singing their hearts out, under the furious scowls of masked woman and bearded men. The islamists were fuming and complaining. But the council didn't dare tackle a powerfully singing black Gospel choir!
I'm not big on religion myself, but the singing was beautiful to hear and it counteracted the grim sight of women with their faces covered.
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202 "From the Muslim friends I've got I've always understood that Jesus is a respected figure in Islam and therefore someone holding a Cross at Easter, even if it coincided with the birthday of Muhammad, would not cause any sort of offence"
Do you not see the irony in this sentence? Think about the 'and therefore' - why is that necessary?
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206 "The council sponsored an Islam Awareness Week a couple of years ago"
It worked!
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201 "Islamic scholars insist that financial dealings should be based on a partnership model where gains and losses are shared equally between the participants."
201 "There isn't one single model for Halal mortgages, there are many different types that vary due to the scholars who have been consulted by the company providing it."
So, it's barter rather than fixed price, plus, no interest = no tax, and ...
204 "Like with all religions, there are many different interpretations of what is and is not Halal"
204 "a few of my friends have told me that they've got a mortgage through a friend who has enough money to be able to lend it to them and this deal is then set-up in accordance with Sharia."
...and nepotism/shared finances within extended family structures - no capital gains = no tax
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I have read most of the comments on here with interest, being one of these people on benefits (temporary I hope)I live in a council house and I hate the description SINK estate. I have 7 O'levels, and numerious other qualifications and I admit to being 52. I would like to comment on what I have read, being British and White, I believe myself to be suitably qualified to put forward my views.
Firstly, there seems to be a consensus of opinion that because of where we live and because we claim aid off the government, that we are all mindless, breed like rabbits, are ignorant and idle. This is absolute rubbish, most of us are in fact, hardworking and responsible people trying to survive in an ever increasing environment where the government keeps moving the goalposts.
Secondly, it is the lower and working class that is feeling the most hit by the influx of cheap foreign labour flooding into this country. It is a well known fact that employee's are taking advantage of this cheap labour market, because these people are here to work and don't do anything else for a good few years, sending the majority of their wages home and eventually going home as wealthy men/women, only to at a later date bring their extended families over here. I have worked for an agency which employ's so many polish workers, that I was the only English speaking employee there, with the exception of management. And to spend days not hearing any English spoken or able to speak to any one by way of a chat, is to say the least very upsetting and annoying. To be instructed to do something by someone with very little English caused all sorts of problems, although I was surrounded by some 60 odd people, I can honestly say that I have never in my life felt so alone and lonely. Not only that but the agency could not understand how I could possibly turn down 8 hours overtime every night, when everyone else was doing it. The fact that I was a mother of young boys was totally lost on them. I had 2 days off because my kids where sick and the agency suddenly didn't need me. I am still signed up with the agency and since xmas have phoned up 3 times to ask if I minded travelling 10 miles to do 2 hours cleaning. a friend of mine left her job because the polish workers thought it would be fun to pour a vat of hot soup over her, my young nephew's 1st job had him in tears, because he could not understand his line supervisor and she began shouting at him. The Poles who work with a friend of mine work a 6am - 9pm day. While out of work I have been working in my local Charity Shop and over half my customers cannot speak English and it turns out those that do are on less than the basic wage anything from £2.75 - £3.50 per hour. There are 9 living in a one bed flat over the shop opposite.
Thirdly, I did not sign on until I had spent my savings, thinking I would successfully be back in work. Upon signing I have received £64.30 a week to keep myself and two 13 year olds, my community charge and rent is reduced, but I still have to find electric, gas, food etc out of this pricely sum.
I am looking for a full time job, but they are miles away and on £64.30 a week my car is mothballed. The local jobs range from 1 hour a week up to 18/19.
I ask myself what has Labour done for me??? The answer NOTHING
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please stop using this term: "white"working class, it is racially insulting. Please use the term Caucasian European working class
Thank you.
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Just what is 'white working class culture' having been brought up in Drumchapel famously called a desert with windows by the 'Big Yin' Billy Connelly. I just don't know what this thing called culture is let alone multiculturalism. I have friends from different backgrounds and some are a different colour to me, we are friends because we have the same interests.
When asked about their 'culture' they tell me of their parents or grandparents but say 'they' identify themselves as being Scottish. So I ask them what ‘makes’ you Scottish you don't speak Gallic, wear tartan or even like whisky nor do you listen to bagpipe music. None of them has ever travelled around Scotland and would never consider a holiday here. We all like Indian, Chinese and Italian food. Me I’ve been round the world been in lots of bars got drunk with the locals not much different to me same complaints about wives and girlfriends same moans about politicians. So come on someone please tell me what is this thing called culture, why is it so important and yet no two people can tell you what it is. As for immigration that is balanced pretty well by emigration. I was once asked where my perfect place to live would be, my answer was; anywhere where the people are friendly, rules out most places in the UK by the sound of things.
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I think the term multicultural society is a made up,PC term which doesn't actually mean anything.It is an oxymoron dreamt up by some (I can only describe as) idiots behind a desk. If you watch any Nat Geo program where they talk about societies and culture it is evident that when anthropologists talk about culture they mean a group of people with the same genetic make up,language,religion,values etc.That is the "glue" that holds the group together.Now does any of this apply to modern Britain?What is really happening is groups of different nationalities living alongside each other without ever mixing or communicating as a lot of them do not even bother to learn English.Before I get accused of racism I am an immigrant myself and I work for the NHS so I know first hand what I am talking about. I mean walking into a ward where not a single patient speaks English,I mean university students who amazingly do not speak English and then accuse their supervisor of racism when they terminate their work placement,I mean about a friend of mine who after 6 years in the country has not learned English and does not seem to think that is a problem.I cannot blame the British people for being worried/afraid/angry etc when their street/area/town looks more like a foreign country and they are surrounded by people who look,dress,speak differently who demand interpreters,housing,benefits etc and if they dare to question it they get branded as racist.Things need to change radically and quickly otherwise I am worried the BNP support will increase even further.Mainstream politicians are deluded if they think it will not happen.Just look at France's last election.A neonazi was nearly elected as President.
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The white working class is no longer hailed for their community spirit and their respect for tradition, but are often portrayed as reactionaries with outdated opinions who are afraid to speak their minds.
It's not about patriotism and flags, that's a statement born out of being ignored and patronised, which is causing a growing tide of resentment
Too often, the interests of the white working class are pitched against those of minority ethnic groups. Instead, the white working class are the losers in the struggle for scarce resources, while minority ethnic groups are the winners. The white working class has been left behind by multiculturalism, or because of it.
The widespread view among many working class people is that every other social and ethnic group’s needs come above theirs when it came to government resources
White working class in Britain has been profoundly changed by political correctness and the mass immigration
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I grew up in New Parks and left the area when i was 15 years old but returned at the age of 33 and the difference is staggering. We used to have a thing called "shame" on New Parks. I remember a woman moving onto Bateman road and she put up blankets instead of curtains, left her garden in a state, a few weeks later about 10 women from the area went and paid her a visit, they told her to clean her house, herself and basically show a little more respect to the area. The lady in question did everything that was asked of her.
A drug dealer was selling drugs from his home on Adcock rd and few of the local Dads went round and smashed his house up. I never forget how the Police stood and watched them do it. I grew up on New Parks with a sense of pride and belonging, it was like a village everyone knew each other and looked out for each other. Growing up in the late seventies early eighties we knew then that the media etc was against us. We used to fight different areas as kids, Beaumont Leys, Braunstone, nonsense really mainly chasing each other but if Indians came to our area to fight or we went to their area, the local newspapers would always go with the white racist attack Indians headline.
I married an Indian woman when i was 24, i worked at the Courtaulds factory near Abbey park at the time and i was so excited to tell my Indian friends at the factory that i had started to date an Indian lady and i was gobsmacked when they wouldn't talk to me again and actually tried to get me sacked, they said that i swore at them in Indian and i was moved to the night shift. In twelve years of marriage i only ever got 1 bit of hassle form white people yet if we saw ten Indians on, average eight would show their disgust. Im not saying that white people were not racist against us its just that they would never dare show it yet Indians would openly show racist views towards us, i was evicted from the Leicester Royal Infirmary Canteen when i asked an Indian lady doctor why she was being racist towards me and my wife, giving us dirty looks etc, i was trying to shame her as she was sitting on a table with all white doctors, i wasn`t really that surprised when the white people turned on me, to them i was the racist. I call those white middle class doctors on that table the "pat yourself on the back society".
In my opinion its the "pat yourself on the back society" that have created this unfair society. They are the Politicians that have bullied white people into submission, they are the authors, journalists that have an agenda or actually believe that Black men and Muslims dare not walk the streets through fear of being attacked by whites and make excuse after excuse when the actual crime figures show that that's simply not true and if anything the opposite, they are the people that think being a pimp or hustler is cool and Disney like they are the tv presenters, comedians that are allowed to call people white trash, chavs and say that scousers are thieves, people form Norfolk are inbread etc etc.
In one generation the New Parks people have completely lost the plot, to go into a house that doesn`t smell is a rarity. The way i speak is different to the way people now speak its more like a caveman speaking English, people now hate Ethnic minorities and the slightly more intelligent ones are voting BNP, drug addicts are everywhere and so are the baseball bat wielding dealers that the police seem to encourage (they have to keep the statistics down don`t they), you see toothless people everywhere, people that have loads of Children but don`t feed or look after them (what are these poor little souls gonna grow upto be). Their are rats everywhere (caught one in my kitchen a few months ago) and giant rats too.
My Dad always taught me that if you are grassed on (snitched on) then you don`t grass on them cos then your a grass aswell and i use this mentality in all aspects of my life. I believe in Equality, ive fought Nazi skinheads, i protected Muslims immigrants when the bombs went off in London. I despise Racists but Racists of all colours and the Liberal elites complete refusal to accept that Ethnic minorities as being Racist and a lot of the racism reminds me of Nazi Germany and the master race and all that is probably the main reason for the collapse of the white working class.
White culture and values have been destroyed by the very people that actively promote immigrant culture and values and the funny thing is that the Britain most immigrants came too doesn't exist anymore because of it and the division between 1st, 2nd, 3rd generation immigrants and the white working class is getting wider because no decent immigrant would want to have anything to do with the valueless white working class.
Im sorry if this comment seems a little all over the place but i was educated at New Parks Community College and Project and i was never really taught punctuation and grammar.
I am now an outsider in New Parks, my views and the fact that i have half Indian children means that im a traitor to my race in the eyes of some and too posh to others, ive had my life threatened, attempts at having my door kicked in by men with hammers and i get verbally abused when i go out, my problem is that i have values and i will stand up for anybody being bullied etc and i used to be very tough but as my disability gets worse the vultures in this area are getting bolder and i believe that i will get stabbed or kicked to death at some point.
I am in the process now of trying to move to a more multi cultural area but seeing as housing is done on a points system im not getting much luck, if only i could leave this country and come back in a an immigrant id now have hundreds of points...
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