Do you speak Race?
A telling moment on last night's Question Time did not involve Mr Griffin at all. It was an exchange between Jack Straw and a black woman in the audience.
This is what she said:
"The parties must listen because, one of the things, I am sitting here and every time Jack Straw or somebody or one of the panel says 'Afro-Caribbean', I am cringing."
(The justice minister holds up his hands in apology.)
"Afri-CAN Ca-RIB-bean!" the woman corrects him.
Discussing race in this country is to walk on egg-shells. When even an experienced signed-up multiculturalist like Mr Straw gets caught out, it becomes obvious how difficult it is even to find the language in which to conduct a grown-up debate about it.
When I have talked to ordinary voters about the subject, there is often discomfort over terminology. Some fear that using the word "black" might be construed as evidence of racism, so they opt for an even more contentious term - "coloured" - in the belief that this will soften their argument.
A few months ago, I received an e-mail from a Chinese viewer who told me he had been offended by my use of the word "Asian" when what I really meant was people who hailed from the Indian sub-continent. On another occasion I was taken to task for the phrase "non-white" - a shorthand for all ethnic minorities which was deemed insulting.
People generally don't want to offend and the shifting sands of acceptable racial vocabulary mean that many dare not even step into the territory. It is a dangerous domain - one false move and you are branded a bigot.
Part of the problem has been the absence of formal public debate about race. Mainstream politicians have tended to opt out or dodge the subject, so the boundaries of acceptable discourse are poorly understood - even by our Parliamentarians.
Last night's programme saw all the panellists try to shift the discussion away from the question of race onto less troublesome terrain.
"This is not a race debate, this is a debate about resources," said the Conservative Sayeeda Warsi, adding that she didn't want a BNP-style discourse "about black and brown people". (I suspect few white politicians would ever dare employ the phrase "brown people", incidentally). All are happy to see the discussion shifted onto safer ground.
Nick Griffin used the expression "indigenous British people" to describe the constituency he seeks to represent.
"The whites!" retorted Jack Straw, keen to push the BNP leader into the race debate. "Skin colour's irrelevant, Jack, skin colour's irrelevant," Mr Griffin responded, as anxious as the rest to avoid the elephant traps of a debate about ethnicity.
This is a problem because it is the recent arrival of people from different ethnic backgrounds into predominantly white communities which is the cause of one of the anxieties underlying the programme. It is not the fact that the new arrivals look different; it is that they behave differently. But neighbourhoods are being transformed because people from other cultures are moving in there. Rapid social change is often linked to ethnic change - and people are disturbed by that.
Can we talk about the alteration of Britain's racial make-up without being accused of prejudice or intolerance? It is tricky to find the words in which to conduct the conversation.
Liberal Democrat Chris Huhne told the Question Time audience that in Britain today "one in two of all Afro-Caribbean children under the age of 16 either have a white mother or a white father". Did he mean children of "mixed race" or "mixed heritage" or "dual heritage" - or whatever the acceptable expression is these days?
Here again we have an important and complex issue - the rapid growth in the numbers of children who don't fit into conventional racial or ethnic categories. There is evidence (see, for example, this Home Office paper [55Kb PDF]) that such youngsters perform less well at school, are more likely to abuse drink or drugs, to end up in prison, to face prejudice or discrimination. But, as I discussed here last year, we don't yet have the language to engage with the intricacies of this.
Globalisation has seen the development of what has been called "identity politics". The trouble is that the debate can barely get beyond issues of classification.
"It is genuinely racist, it is extraordinarily racist when you seek to deny the English... you people wouldn't even let us have our name on the census form," Nick Griffin said last night. "That is racism and that is why people are voting British National Party."
Unable to define who or what we are talking about, we are unable to define the debate. "We are the aborigines here," Nick Griffin said last night. "All of us are descended from Africa," responded the playwright Bonnie Greer.
The British people, I think, are broadly tolerant and welcoming. We don't wish to offend or make a scene. That said, there is deep concern about how racial and cultural convergence is altering our way of life, and yet we struggle to find the words to voice those fears.
I'm 
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The problem is that the terms deemed 'acceptable' and 'preferable' change frequently, and different people find different terms offensive in different contexts. And nobody tells us. I've not seen the all-points bulletin that told us all that the preferred term is "African Caribbean".
Most people don't seek to cause offence, but for ordinary people who don't live and breathe equality politics it can be difficult to know what words to use. Add to the mix the small minority of people who go out of their way to be offended, and those busybodies who get offended on behalf of people who really aren't, and it becomes a dangerous area to get involved in!
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It's certainly an area with a lot of hysteria surrounding it, not helped by a percentage of people who stir up the hysteria by perpetuating it either through direct racism, or by politically correctness encouraging what I call "offence-by-proxy" - that is, people who get offended by things on behalf of others they believe ought to be offended by it.
My view on matters is a lot more simplistic - in general, people are either idiots or they aren't.
To date I've not managed to narrow down any discernible pattern that puts people in one category or the other, that's solely based on what they look like on the outside.
I've met some decent people and some complete idiots of almost every race/religion/ideology/etc, and to mass-generalise just using those terms is daft, really.
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[i]This is a problem because it is the recent arrival of people from different ethnic backgrounds into predominantly white communities which is the cause of one of the anxieties underlying the programme. It is not the fact that the new arrivals look different; it is that they behave differently. But neighbourhoods are being transformed because people from other cultures are moving in there. Rapid social change is often linked to ethnic change - and people are disturbed by that.[/i]
There is a little logical inconsistency in your approach Mark Easton, ironically, one you share with the BNP.
The claim that people are concerned about immigrant behaviour is not born out by the facts. For example, Mr Griffin complained that he had a less sympathetic audience in West London because it is no longer a British city, that the 'indigenous' community is in the minority. However, the audience appeared to have a skin-colour mix that would suggest a high percentage of of them would be considered British by the BNP, yet there was an overwhelming support from the vast majority of the audience for positions that were against the BNP.
Similarly, if you look at the distribution of BNP candidates for local councils they tend to come from areas of low immigration. And, if the recently released BNP membership lists are to be taken at face value, then the membership from areas with high levels of mixed ethnicities is incredibly low.
So how is it possible that the rise of the BNP, and the general rise of racial concern in the population, is engendered by different cultural behavior but does not seem to provoke political action from the white populations in those areas?
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To a large extent, what race a person is, or how they should be described is determined by what race, if any, they consider themselves to be and how they wish to be described. There isn't really any meaningful objective way to classify people on ethnic grounds which everyone can agree to and what would be the point anyway?
I think it would help if people realised that there is no connection between race (whatever that means) and nationality. While it is true that some countries try to make this link, this is a recent idea, not more than a couple of centuries old and has never been the case in Britain.
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I had never thought that the term Afro-Caribbean could be offensive until I saw Question Time last night. I personally avoid using the term white or black to describe ethnicity though I think that the term Afro-Caribbean would be no more offensive than using a term like Euro-American.
A shift in the semantic usage of the term "Afro" could be a reason for the term Afro-Caribbean causing offense though I had initially heard the term being used by people of Caribbean origin.
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Great post!
Something I've said for many a year!
What are the right words to say? What is politically correct these days?
Not many years ago we could use the term 'half-caste' or were required to. These days people will look in horror if you use that term.
Those of African origin have been referred to as 'black' or 'coloured' or endless other terms which seem to change every other year.
Does anyone know what is politically correct these days? I dont and am in fear everytime I try and talk about racial inequality, for fear of being branded a bigot myself.
So yes, great post, reflecting some important points!
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Good points Mark - I think you're spot on, and I too was struck by that moment, which I thought was 'splitting hairs' a wee bit.
I think it's a real problem - that we are so entangled with so called 'political correctness' and the need to conform or not offend, that we run the risk of saying nothing at all.
I feel that spending time skating around the issues (as frequently occured last night) trying to use the 'right' terms doesn't help us to actually engage with the issues.
There are real dangers when we start worrying more about lexicon than about the substance of the argument.
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Mark, I applaud you!
You are absolutely right in everything you say, and courageous (particularly via the BBC...) to do so.
I have no care about where any person comes from, even less about the colour of their skin, but I do object when people try to change my culture and way of life. If I were to go to live somewhere else, it would be because I valued that way of life and aspired to be a part of it. Others coming her should give us that respect.
A good analogy is if you invite someone to stay at your home - you would not expect them to redecorate the room they stay in and throw out the furniture!
Government has a responsibility to protect our way of life, yet this constant pandering to Political Correctness results in every minority being given precedence over the majority. Our politicians should learn that courage is required to be a good leader.
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It puzzled me that someone was offended by "Afro-Carribean" as a term. It still does. That such terms offend are driving us into an avenue where discussions on race will become harder because no-one will be able to say anything without offending. We need to get to a place where we can use such terms as Asian, Afro-carribean etc. without people being offended. I think such terms should only be regarded as offensive when they are intended in an offensive manner. Did Mark Easton intend to cause offense when using he term "asian?" Then why was that person offended? I am not offended to be called white, or european, or british, or english? Why is it that people are offended by "Afro-carribean?" Can anyone explain? There are terms such as the P word which was used for many years as an insult and one can undrstand the offence this causes despite it's origins, but why is "Afro-carribean" offensive?
It puzzles me, and I intend no offence by anything I have written by the way. It puzzles me.
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Whatever word you use to describe something, someone somewhere will take offence at it. And whatever word you replace it with to avoid causing offence, eventually someone else somewhere else will take offence at it.
The end result is a Sisyphean struggle of coining new euphemisms to replace the old ones.
It's compounded by certain sectors apparently taking offence by proxy.
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can we please stop trying to define ourselves as of being of a specific race, racial type. There is no such thing as Race, or different Races, we are one species , human! Our differences being geographical, cultural and linguistic.. As soon as the idea of being from/of a different racial background is discarded perhaps we may be able to move forward as one people, whom inhabit the earth..
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Bit of an over-reaction in the early part of the piece. I agree that there is a lot of dishonesty in how we discuss race in the UK, but maybe your confusion over what to call 'African-Caribbeans' is more a reflection of your lack of knowledge than anything else. To my ears, 'Afro-Caribbean' is a slightly old-fashioned way of referring to a community, but nothing more than that, and certainly nothing that I would get offended about. Somoeone else may feel differently, but guess what? We're both individuals.
For what it's worth, there isn't exactly unanimity within the 'black community' about what we call ourselves. Some find the term 'black' problematic, preferring African. Others would (figuratively) stab you in a heartbeat if you referred to them as African if they were from the Caribbean. Some don't mind 'Black British'; others mind a great deal. Again, a bit of familiarity with the different shades of opinion is all it takes to understand this. There isn't one definitive view, and why should there be - do all 'white' people agree about what it means to be 'white'?
A tip: if you get it wrong with the individual you are dealing with, acknowledge that, and get on with the conversation. Don't get all bent out of shape about your verbal faux pas, as that's what really conveys that you have the problem. You might then find that the next person you encounter does not have the same problem with terms that you encounteted last time. Simples.
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Thank you Mark.
This is the first time I have heard anyone from the BBC acknowledge accurately the underlying issue here.
Thank you for having the bravery to discuss this.
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I agreed with the phase mentioned "it is not about race or ethnicity but their behavior". There are many people are refusing to learn English, to embrace and respect British culture and food but trying to create a sub-culture of themselves and force their views onto other people. I think it's absolutely wrong and unfair to those who truly integrate and contribute to the society. We need more people who want to be part of the melting pot, not those who reject everything British.
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People need to stop all of this being offended by simple terms such as "afro-carribean". Theres no hate intended in the use of these words. Just get over yourselves and appreciate the fact that users of these terms are not trying to insult you.
If its such a problem for you to hear these terms, why not wear a badge stating the one that you are happy with, if there is one at all.
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Watched this with great interest was an amazing moment when some of the audience rebuked Jack Straw over both his attitude to the indigenous population of this country in all its wonderful colours and that fact that he was so incorrect in his naming of a race using mere slang to describe the lady's origin.
I wonder if his constituency is used to poll samples of immigration success seeing as his constituency is 30% ethnic.
It was an amazing site to see everyone bullying and abusing Mr griffin however sinking directly to his level of segregation and hate for another group or minority. Nick said a few things which while i don't like his politics he actually has a coloured gent agree with his statement that immigration is out of control. it was a real pandora's box of revelations leopards changing spots and all parties forgetting the past mistakes they have made and announced.
The Asian conservative Mp was complaining that for all the canvasing she had done the BNP votes were rising, without offence to anyone that's damn obvious some really bad marketing this is going to sound horrible the way i have to put this.
Asian lass selling English values to a traditional English population is only going to create issues within the populous even is the Asian lass is 3rd 4Th 5Th generation the voter does not see this and just here's immigration with an immigrant on the doorstep... sorry if that sounds harsh but its a reality in this climate of Hate that the current government has us live in.
The next few weeks are going to be very interesting I do hope that the current main parties learn from this most strange of events and adapt and grow quickly enough to allow Nicks form of belief to be stamped quietly out.
you cant teach equality to nations because to reach for equality is to create those less equal.
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Mark has hit the nail on the head, people are so scare of offending by saying the wrong thing that they tend to say nothing at all for fear of being branded a racist.
Jack Straw made an innocent comment that was so bviously not meant to offend but he was treated as though he had committed a heinous crime. When did Afro Caribean become the wrong word to use, did we all miss that newsflash.
Nick Griffin really did not do himself any favours last night but I also think the BBC were less than honest in not allowing a more rounded and varied audience to participate. I am not in favour of BNP or their policies but do feel that the BBC has just given ammunition to people who will have a lot of sympathy towards Mr Griffin who appeared to be rather intimidated by the constant barrage of question on racism.
The whole point of question time was, I thought, to get the panels views on current issues not to attack one person on one aspect of what either he or his party believe.
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For me too, this was the first I'd heard that 'Afro-Caribbean' is the 'wrong term to use'. It seems quite a scientific, sociological kind of term to me.
It all reminded me of a programme presented by Prof Louis Gates a few years back, in which he discussed this very subject (I don't recall his having any easy answers) What stuck in my mind was his comment (along the lines of) "My grandfather was negro; my father was coloured; I am black and my children are African American."
Fashions change in language in all areas - what is acceptable fluctuates, especially if a term is picked up and used in an abusive way. The "P" word is just an abbreviation like "Brit" - except it isn't because it came to be deliberately used as an insult.
Unfortunately, the minefield is more likely to impact 'non-racists' who do care if they offend, than the bigots who don't - which seems to suggest it is indeed just a big smokescreen preventing genuine debate.
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African-Caribbean or Afro-Caribbean? Is there really much of a difference. Is one term offensive? This is why people are fed up with political correctness. There are more important issues to be discussed rather than wasting time on semantics.
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I watched Question Time with a degree of anger. I am not racist having worked with many 'ethnic minorities throughout my working life. Most of them accept our laws and way of life and try to live as we do. There are an awful lot, however, who do not and wish to change Britian and those who were born here for their own advantage. Racist or not I would like to think that Nick Griffin would stand against this. Also, I thought Mr Dimbleby was supposed to host the programme and be neutral. He was most certainly anti Nick Griffin last night. Can we not be allowed to hear what he has to say if it affends our immigrant population?
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Bonnie Greer is of course right - unless almost all the scientists specialising in this are are wrong, if you go back far enough we are all of African descent.
But nit-picking about terminology and semantics, as was in evidence on QT last night, is unhelpful. The in-vogue terminology changes so fast these days that any descriptor used is likely to offend someone. The pronunciation of "Caribbean" is not in the wider scheme of things important, and we should not let ourselves be bullied out of using one particular fomulation for fear of being branded politically incorrect by one special interest group or another.
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"So how is it possible that the rise of the BNP, and the general rise of racial concern in the population, is engendered by different cultural behavior but does not seem to provoke political action from the white populations in those areas?" - The Magic Tramp
I suspect that the reason fewer 'BNP supporters' come from the areas you refer to, The Magic Tramp, is that people not happy with the level of immigration in those areas simply move out of them. Not that all those who move out would otherwise support the BNP, but potential BNP supporters are likely to be among them.
Personally I think a degree of ethnic and cultural diversity is a healthy thing, but as was mentioned on the programme, it is the sheer pace of change, caused by the unprecedented levels of immigration over the past 50 years, that people are uncomfortable with.
As to 'Afro-Caribean' being an inappropriate term, I was surprised, and would like to hear what people of caribean ancestry who are black (can I say that?) feel about the use of that term. I can understand that some terms make you cringe - as a white person it makes me cringe with embarrassment when I hear other white people use the term 'coloured'.
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There is nothing wrong with the term Afro-Caribbean. Its perfectly acceptable. What that particular woman finds offensive is her concern, but that term is perfectly acceptable.
Is she offended by the term Afro? Should we be offended by Anglo in turn? What happens if the African Union go for a single currency, as thats currently expected to be called the "Afro". Maybe they should rename the "Afro Caribbean Day Centre" in the city of Birmingham. Lets not stop there though. How about the term Indo-Caribbean? Afro-Latin? Afro-Cuban? These are all regularly used terms. Does she take offensive by her lack of understand and proscribing it to the hair cut?
Its ridiculous, one of the most ridiculous points raised on the show last night.
I personally find her pronounciation of Carribbean particular offensive, as she Americanised her it to Carrib-Ian rather than Ca-rib-ian, which would be the correct way to say it.
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Such emphasis on PC correctness over terminology is ridiculous - surely the real issue is the meaning behind the words and how to combat racism - not whether one says 'Afro' or 'African' neither of which in my experience have been used to give offence (unlike the 'P' word).
Whilst in The Gambia last year I was chatting to a local who asked me why he could no longer be called 'black' in the UK. Skin colour in that area of Africa is almost genuinely black rather than shades of a brown and 'black' was the term he was quite happy to use. I answered that I hadn't a clue and didn't know what the current allowable'PC' term was. we both agreed the whole issue was confusing, ridiculous and irrelevant.
As an aside, the local kids in The Gambia call us 'whites' - 'twobobs' - apparently a term relating back to local pay rates when the country was under colonial rule. I bet that's not PC either!
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Let's all change the subject...bankers running off with millions, unemployment...pending service cuts..so lets talk about race. Great diversion from the real issues of the day. How about, Human Being. Races are pitted againist each other because "class" has been pulicly shown to matter. Economic crisis, bail out the rich....can't understand why people are angry. Let's discuss the block one will check for racial identity when they apply for the unemployment claim. Another expression of discontent in the political and economic system that has betrayed everyone..well not everyone.
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Hit's the nail on the head perfectly. There is a real air of shame and running scarred of mentioning anything to do with a race. Until politicians and the public stop running scarred of having grown up adult debates about issues which concern them, misinformation and scepticism will continue. It is a whole lot easier to say nothing and never make a mistake, but where will that leave us as a society. I just hope that in the near future people actually realise that discussion works. After all we are all the same species - humans.
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#11 rainbowlee23
Agree completely. We're all, after all, just children of the same universe.
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Over the past few years I have been required morally, and to keep within the new legal framework of this country, to alter my my thinking on 'right and wrong'. Simply put, I've had to forgive convicted murderers who killed British civilians and soldiers. I have had to accept some of them as duly elected representatives in The House of Commons as being suitably rehabilitated human beings who now wield political power over my very limited world. Providing the BNP offer policies which are at least as intelligent and coherent as the 3 main political parties (can't see that being much of a challenge,) forgiving and forgetting Nick Griffen's unfortunate political background and social gaffs shouldn't be much of a problem. Tough love I suppose.
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I think it is inevitable that we will run into these sorts of problems time and time again. Race is a 'non-sense' concept base on pre-scientific ideas about groups of people. I have long thought it was a mistake to embue race with legal meaning. The REAL problem is inter-group differences and these vary from time to time and place to place. By trying to explain these in racial terms will never address the true issues.
Perhaps because I grew up in Belfast I have always been acutely aware that racial differences are not a requirement for groups of people to feel threatened by other groups of people.
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I heartily agree with the majority of what has been posted here- pussyfooting around what is currently the most PC and acceptable terminology is simply avoiding the underlying issues.
For instance:
No one is White, they are pink, or tan, or some similar name for a colour rather different to that of well polished enamel.
Neither is anyone Black, for similar reasoning.
Asian, in its most literal form, refers to the continent you are from. In that sense the Indian subcontinent does count, as does the Middle East and Russia!
Oriental is often taken as a derisory term, whereas I personally always conjure up images of beautiful women, ancient cultures and food I am not particularly fond of unless it is cooked just right!
For me (personally) though, the biggest bugbear is the term 'race'. To me it starts to sound like we are labelling our forebears in the manner of breeds of dog. Rather poor taste if you ask me. But ultimately if you don't feel this way, I don't care- just as long as you don't judge peoples demeanor and intelligence purely on their skin tone we'll probably get on fine.
Ultimately, if the science is correct, we all descend from one of 12 matriarchs in a single african valley. That we have to give a rough estimate as to which one on every official form we fill in seems to be one of the root causes of all our problems...
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The scientists tell us that the best bet is that we are all of African descent a few tens of thousands of years ago. Since then the human species has differentiated a little - a bit like the differnces between Golden Labradors, Newfoundlands and St Bernards amongst dogs. As travel has become easier in recent centuries, we are tending to mix back together again. England has been pretty mixed for a long time. Saxon, Norman, Celt and Dane are we with 20 or 30 etceteras. Given all that if anybody asks my race I juat say "Ordinary English mongrel".
Trying to make policy in terms of race is monumentally daft. When Hitler tried, he ended up with Aryan - a group of languages, jews - a cultural group, gipsies - another cultural group, etc. When the USA tried after the Civil War, they spiralled towards the idea that anyone with any negro ancestry was therefore a negro - an absurdity because no-one could know who is in that group and who not. When the South Africans tried it, they ended by classifying some people by how curly their hair was and trying to define Japanese as white. (Incidentally, white, like black, is not a human skin colour.)
The simple rule is "If you don't want t omake a fool of yourself, don't talk race."
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All this debate over what different groups/individuals call themselves shows one thing above all, that regardless of colour, there are many people who'll seeemingly find offence in whatever terms someone else uses.
There are too many thin skinned poeple who really need to grow up and face facts, if you define yourself or anyone else by their skin tone, you are a truly sad individual who needs to realise that we're all human and NOT different races.
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I think you'll find Lenny Bruce had the answer over 40 years ago...
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I'm surprised the people sitting behind that black woman could see the panel past the gargantuan chip on her shoulder. And it was pathetic to see Jack Straw cravenly cowering in apology.
It's 'newthink' at its worst.
Check the dictionary - Jack Straw was correct in his use of 'Afro-Caribbean'.
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I do not consider Afro-Caribbean to be an offensive term (and I remember her saying that it makes her cringe - not that it offends her [please correct me if I am wrong]). However as a black person who was born in the UK, I class myself as Black and British. My parents, who are from the Carribean would prefer simply to be called Caribbean and I am assuming that a person from Africa would like to be called an Afrian. As a black person, I cannot (and do not) get offended by someone calling me Black, just like a white person cannot get offended by being called white and an indian person cannot get offended if someone calls him an indian.
I find it utterly ridiculous that people are treading on eggshells for fear of being branded racist for using these terms. In fact, it confuses me more when a person refers to a black person as coloured. Coloured is a term used to describe pigment (which every race - even white people has in different shades).
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It's not just non-whites who demand unreasonably that we conform our terminology to their own self image.
Think of Scots and Welsh who object to being called British (which rather undermines Mr Griffin's party's identity). Quebecois who shudder at the name "Canadian", Cornish people who object to being called English.
And of course, any of the above can be non-white.
Then people insist on calling me Irish. I'm quite clearly an Ulsterman...
A system of name badges might help (but may not curry favour with anyone).
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As a Tamil I hereby sanction the use of the terms "brown" and "coloured". Anyone who gets offended by these as purely words is really not helping anything. There will always be people who use words describing skin colour in a derogatory manner, that doesn't mean we need to keep changing the words. I stopped using "coloured" in favour of "brown" a while ago, but now I find that this too is considered sailing close to the wind? I can't even describe myself anymore.
Oh, and by the way, I'm Sri Lankan. If someone who meets me can tell that, then good on them. If they can't, then Indian is statistically a pretty good guess.
I say all this under the effective racial safety shield that is talking only about an ethnicity that I fall under. If I could extend it to other similarly 'suspect' terms I would.
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Very good article by Mark. It is peoples motivation that counts. The non-verbal is far more important than the verbal. I did not like the inconsistency of the BBC in firing Carol Thatcher for comments said off air on The One Show and then not doing the same to a male celebrity for similar comments off air on Strictly Come Dancing. The comments in both cases were off air and so the concern of the production and individuals not the public yet became public by the nature of the unfortunate words used. It was surely the words used that were the problem rather than a racist intention by the users. It is as possible to over-react to words as it is to everything else. Context and intention are the defining features of a racist comment surely with a deliberate choice of offensive terms. The terms English, Asian, Irish, African etc have not to my knowledge been considered offensive rather commonly used terms to describe nationality. Tone of voice could however render them offensive if spoken by someone with a dislike of a certain nationality but then so can any word surely?
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I'm white British and my wife is a black Trinidadian who moved to and grew up in the States before moving to the UK. The question of cultural identity, race and such has been discussed often, particularly in relation to the identity and heritage our child-to-be.
Someone might object to the term Afro-Carribean would probably because there is no such place as "Afroland", or similar and is really quite a poor abbreviation for "African" (which is already short enough a word anyway). A Japanese person would rightly object if you described them as "Oriental".
The lady in the audence probably also took issue with the pronunciation of Caribbean because it's not the correct way to pronounce it - It's not [Carry-bee-an] but [Ca-rib-bean]. Imagine if someone always called you [Bry-tish] intead of [Brit-ish].
To those who are constantly worried about being caught out by the shifting sands of "political correctness"/courtesy: Just don't define people by what they look like or where they're from - judge them by who they are. If you're that interested why not just ask them how they identify themselves? Just because they may look alike, someone from Jamaica is quite, quite different to someone from Trinidad or Barbados. And don't act so defensive when someone tries to make you more informed!
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I watched question time and read the BNP's mandate several weeks before - I am in no means a supporter of Nick Griffin. I thought it was right to bring him on, but not to protest outside the BBC and invite a biased audience and biased panelists - I mean a black American on the panel? it's not representative is it. What concerns me, and the public as a whole is that the problem we all face is not one of racism but of simple economics. The UK faces the largest amount of public debt in history (except for after WW2) - we already have mass unemployment. Our infrastructure is under terrible strain (tubes, buses, cars on roads, housing, numbers of police and crime), schools are massively oversubscribed, hospital waiting lists are enormous. What peopple fail to realise is that we are a country with more people per sqm than any other country in the world, but Britain is the size of perhaps one US state. Everyone consumes resources, even if your here illegally and that increase means an increase in demand. Demand for housing, food, goods, money, jobs, etc etc. An increase in demand pushes prices up and brings wages down. That is a simple economic principle. People are concerned not about the colour of people's skin, there has been a multicultured society in Britain since the 50's. We do not have the housing, we do not have the infrastructure. That is the problem. What really concerns me, and should concern everyone else is that our current government took us into a war in Iraq illegally, set human rights legislation that favours criminals, they pushed us into joining Europe illegally and they have set an immigration policy without any thought for the people of this country, which whether you believe it to be the case or not has changed the face of this country. I'm not saying it's bad but I'm not saying it's good. We have been forced into these positions not because we wanted them but because they were forced on us. If you complain, it falls on deaf ears or you are branded a racist (which is quite wrong, we're talking economics here). Labour are not prepared to do anything about it, the conservatives plan an inadequate soloution, and the lib dems don't suggest very much at all. That only leaves you with 2 options, UKIP or the BNP. Both utterly unattractive. Both however have listened to the general public views (from all colours) and that is where the popularity has arisen. What is of concern is that this popularity in the BNP ever meant a BNP government, that the policy mandate would change (we have all seen that before) and they would follow their own agenda. What concerned me last night are the protests and the bias in the studio. We live in a democratic society, if you believe that immigration is out of control you have a right to say so, however some people feel the need to label you racist if you even mention it, and remember I believe it's an economic problem rather than a skin colour problem. They attacked him without even reading his mandate. I am concerned about immigration, everyone is. The government's buzzword for the last couple of years is 'communities' - I challenge anyone to know who there neighbours are, to let their daughters, wives, girlfriends walk the streets late at night because we have no idea who people are. The government have no idea who people are. There is a large anount of illegal immigration, who knows which of those people are criminals, rapists, murderers etc. We have had African dictators seek asylum in the UK who killed thousands of people in their countries before they claimed asylum here. That is not racist, it is about feeling safe where you live. People attacked Griffin because he said 'indigenous people of Britain' - I find it offensive when people don't recognise that we as a country have a rich history and culture and that believe it or not British people have lived here for hundreds of years. That in my mind is reverse racism and it offends me. My family are a mixture of Scottish, Welsh, Irish and English and have lived on this island since the doomsday book in 1066 (I have traced). I find it offensive that people of other religions and faiths tell us the st.George's cross is racist. Do we accuse the Iranians that their flag symbolises terrorism or the Irish? Why should we change national holidays to represent other faiths? would any other country do this for our Christian holidays? would Iran or Pakistan? There are several tv programs that show customs officials dealing with immigration. It is terrifying. If they find an illegal immigrant working but can't find his passport they let them go. An appointment is made at a police station but these people fail to turn up. Airport security has improved but even that is open to exploitation. Why are there so many African asylum seekers? Africa is not part of Europe, but if you ask a customs officer 90% of the time these guys aren't claiming asylum because they are scared for thier lives, but they are infact economic asylum seekers. Everyone is aware of the problems. It is happening all over the world and people don't like it. you only have to look at Italy. What we need is a government who aren't interested in their own agenda (decreasing wages to attract business to stay in this country because it is cheaper to go elsewhere). I, as a graduate 2003 have never been able to find a good job. I have 5 A-levels, degree, post degree etc but I have been unemployed for 6 months. 90% of people I know are in the same position. Brown talks about building our skills up, but we are all overskilled anyway, there just aren't the jobs out there. I worked as a labourer for a week until my boss (who employed polish guys) said he would only pay cash and not on time. I declined his offer. I have applied for hundreds of jobs but still no luck. I find it offensive when people say British people are lazy and don't want to work for little money. I would happily, unfortunately there just aren't the jobs out there. I am also seriously disappointed when jobs I am qualified to do are filled by people who aren't English, jobs that are skilled, we aren't talking about cleaning jobs here. The conservative on QT said why shouldn't we have skilled people coming over here? well we already have skilled people who are being overlooked for jobs because there are people who could work perfectly happy in their own countries taking jobs that British Grads could do. It's disgusting. The government are liars using smokescreens to hide the real resons behind their decisions and it's usually about energy, money or power (or cheap labour to attract business to stay in this country) - Jack Straw couldn't answer a single question openly, and deflected blame at the BNP throughout. Shame on everyone concerned except for Nick who spoke his mind. Good on you BNP and anyone else who decides to vote for you, but unfortunately I would rather not vote at all.
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Good post.
As with a lot of the other comments on here I think there's only a problem there if you're trying to describe people by their skin colour etc. I can't see how resorting to a description of someone by skin colour is a good thing - unless you're actually trying to give a physical description of how they look. It's usually done (albeit without intended malice) in a way that singles someone out as being different because of their skin colour - which is ludicrous! The same goes for their historical geographical origins - and as we should all know by now, there's really no such thing as indigenous English/British people as most of us can trace ancestry back to a different country via genetics. Which just goes to show how out of touch Mr Griffin really is!
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Excellent post, and i think you hit the nail on the head on this, in what is political mine field.
Most people in this country, are very tolerant to immigrants, we have a tradition of fairness that makes it difficult for the BNP to flourish.
The shifting sands of race are a quagmire that can easily cause offence. I think it was Jack Straw who last night said something along the lines of it would be hard to find any 'racially pure British people' as so many of us have ancestors from other countries, and i totally agree with Bonnie Greer's sentiment that we all have an ancestry going back to Africa, which is undeniably true.
The problem we have as a Society is that we are going through a period of massive social change, and this is probably going to continue for the forseeable future, no one knows where it will lead, and in the long term the social values and norms of society will change. It is a debate that needs to be discussed, but dare not speak it's name.
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First things first - Mark Easton, I dip my cap in your general direction. Cannot agree more.
I find it amazing, having read through all of the comments that precede me writing this, how many of us feel we have to start off our comments with 'i'm not a rasict, but...' - as a nation we have become so politically correct that we are no longer allowed to say our opinions, in case it causes upset.
I am a man of English descent, and can honestly say that I am probably one of those people who Nick Griffin states as being indigenous' - as in, the last 10 generations or so were all English.
I personally, like what seems to be virtually everyone, have no problem at all in people of all colours creeds and nationalities living and working in the UK. I just don't want there to be so many people who are not British, that I no longer feel like I am in the UK.
I am originally from the East Midlands, but am now working in central London, and I have never felt so far away from home. I recently travelled to Strasbourg on holiday, and I felt more at home there than I do in the capital of my own country. I am a prisoner of fear in my own home, due to the government not having the courage to stand up and be counted.
My personal take on the BNP and why they get the votes - the public like their policies, even if they don't like why they have them. If Labour were true to themselves and still stood for the working class , then we wouldn't be in this problem.
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This is a red-letter day! I actually agree with Mark lock-stock-and-barrel.
Incidentally, the women is wrong. The correct phrase is in fact Afro-Carribean ... as in Judeao-Christian or Anglo-Saxon or Franco-German. It's just a common construct of the indigenous language!
The sooner we can all grow-up and stop throwing around epithats like, "hateful" & "racist" & "bigot" to stifle discussion & debate,the better.
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Mark, you hit on the issue most adeptly with the term "grown-up debate". The fact is, anyone capable of mature debate, no matter what their creed, colour or belief would not get offended at the use of terms such as "Afro-Carribean" instead of "African Carribean", or "Gay" instead of "Homosexual" or vice versa.
The fact is, to have mature debate on the issue we must put aside people who take offence for the sake of taking offence, those capable of mature debate realise that there was no offence intended behind Jack Straw's comment, and hence the fact he didn't phrase it exactly as the Lady in the audience would've liked is irrelevant as there are plenty of Afro-Carribeans who would prefer it the other way.
We have this issue where people that difficult, and that stubborn, don't seem to realise that in acting as they do, build barriers to mature, reasoned debate. Getting offended for the sake of getting offended does no one any favours as it suggests a lack of mutual respect. Mature debate commands that you ignore irrelevant quirks in favour of looking at the bigger picture, seeing what is actually being said, and take it in the context of the sentiment behind that- in both cases, Jack did nothing wrong, he said the right things and his sentiment was extremely fair, the only person at fault was the lady choosing to take offence where none needed to be taken, and in the process of that, playing into the hands of the very people that are the problem - the BNP.
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Much of this debate is about semantics, and as such pointless, divisive and non-productive. I don't care what colour, religion (if any), sexuality or any other distinction someone is; what matters is the person themselves. Are they law abiding? Do they contribute to society? Are they prepared to fit in without special treatment or laws?
A multiracial society is not a problem for me. A multicultural one is. It is divisive, setting one group against another and creating a breeding ground for extremism both political and religious.
It is a pity that there is no body in the UK (how about the BBC?) that will stand up and define what are acceptable terms that give the least offence and then we all stick to them without further argument. Years ago I used to use the term "coloured", but then was told that it should be "black", now that appears to be non-PC. This is just stupidity - taking offence for the sake of it.
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So what did she consider herself, African , Carribean or British ? This is one of the problems which gives fuel to the BNP philosophy ; in our multiracial society there is always a question about where exactly loyalties lie. Does Britain come before country of origin or religious conviction or does Britain take second place. Where this uncertainty exists, there will always be a modicum of distrust,and this is fuelled by agressive enforcement of multiculturalism which appears, rightly or wrongly, to favour the ethnic minority over the views or needs of the majority.
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You said : "The British people, I think, are broadly tolerant and welcoming. We don't wish to offend or make a scene. That said, there is deep concern about how racial and cultural convergence is altering our way of life, and yet we struggle to find the words to voice those fears".
Absolutely right. But the trouble is, the out of touch liberal-elite who run this country have created a situation where even common sense approaches about race relations and reasonable objections to having one's environment swamped by fundamentalist change are branded "racist" or "Islamophobic". Against that background, it's not too surprising that in desperation some voters turn to the BNP. Not out of conviction - out of lack of choice. And all the Jack Straw platitudes in the world won't change that. Caledonian Comment
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The treading on eggshells around issues of race is one of the reasons why the BNP's support is growing.
Essentially tolerant people - like Jack Straw - are constantly being told how to speak, how to behave and how to think on issues of race.
Like the protests that undermine the right to freedom of speech and in the process stop Nick Griffin's objectionable and ill-thought out political logic from being exposed to proper, reasoned demolition - these attempts to tackle racism by policing the way people think only serve to raise credibility and support for the BNP.
Instead of being exposed as a single-issue, petty-minded party run by people you wouldn't want to organise your school fete, let alone your local council - the BNP gets an air of anti-establishment glamour, fighting for the ordinary person who is afraid to air even reasonable views on race that go against the accepted position. Like saying Afro-Caribbean, for instance.
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15. At 1:39pm on 23 Oct 2009, PMGlenThomas wrote:
People need to stop all of this being offended by simple terms such as "afro-carribean". Theres no hate intended in the use of these words.
Damn right.
If someone calls me 'white' (when being pedantic I vary between pale pink and light beige) I take no-offence whatsoever. If everyone chilled out a little there'd be a lot less problems with the world. I'd also suggest that as people such as Nelson Mandela or James Brown " Say it loud: I'm black & I'm proud" have no problem with being called black then no-one with African heritage should have a problem with it either.
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Sigh! ..I don't even know how to word a comment on this blog. can we change the subject??
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Mark - an excellent post. We have arrived in the almost impossible situation of being unable to discuss any issues of ethnicity in virtually any context. Thankfully Bonnie Greer made mincemeat of Griffin in terms of quietly exposing the ludicrous inner-contradictions of the BNP's position on ethnic origin...neatly reminding him that the original inhabitants of the country were Neanderthals.
By contrast, the main parties, NuLabour and the LibDems in particular made fools of themselves, basing the their entire approach on shrill denunciations of Griffin which, based on message boards elsewhere played straight into his hands and portrayed him as a victim. The programme departed from its normal format to demonstrate convincingly that, at heart, there is nothing quite so illiberal as a liberal. It was rather like inviting a politician from another fringe party, such as the Greens, and filling the audience with Jeremy Clarkson fans.
Behind the fleetingly presentable Nick Griffin, the BNP remains at its core a bunch of leather-jacketed fascist nincompoops, but...and this is important ...over a million people have voted for them, precisely because polite politics is so fundamentally unable to address the issues that concern these people and others. Because we cannot discuss ethnicity, we cannot discuss immigration, without discussing immigration we cannot plan the economic future of the country and the great range of social questions that spring from that issue.
Possibly the greatest problem bestowed on debate in the country by the liberal-left is that accusation of the greatest character defect of them all...to be a "racist". It's an utterly polarized debate...you either are or are not a racist and to be defined as racist is to spend all your energies in demonstrating that you are not, hence the hilarious tapdance around this issue by politicians. Until such time as we can have debates where a politician can even say that "the multi-cultural society is not a failure, but it's not much of a success either" then we are doomed to drift in circles on currents of tortured PC language.
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WASTE OF TIME TALKING IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE LANGUAGE?
Race has been used by Jewish anarchists to promote liberal-democracy (anarchism), aka anti-statism, for decades, in fact, ever since the end of WWII. See Denazification, The Frankfurt School and the 1950 UNESCO statement on race where all but one of the authors was Jewish, the one being Indian. The main author of that peculiarly odd statement went on to give Herrnstein and Murray a hard time when they published the Bell Curve in 1994. The arguments are all groundless, as there are marked 'racial' differences in mean IQ which have very important economic and social implications as I and others have spelled out repeatedly in these BBC blogs. Are all dogs the same? Are all cattle the same? Are all horses? The panel had no grasp of race, species, evolution or genetics. See Lewontin's Fallacy. Anyone interested can follow the links. Begin with this one ad then this one.
The programme last night was embarassingly ill-informed, which sadly is an all to revealing sign of our dysgenic times. Even Nick Griffin doesn't seem to understand that National Socialism is left-wing and statist (the clue being the words 'socialist' and 'national'). Read this to see what WWII was really all about, as it was a war against the very people who are fomenting trouble over race, and that isn't Nick Griffin, it's those who have had us fighting wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and if they could, Iran.
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The issue for me being a black man is not whether you refer to me as black, but do you think my family and i add value to this society. Any migrant to these shores such (yours truly included) admire(d) the discipline and uprightness of the English. However, the decline in what you will refer to as 'Britishness' has nothing to do with migrants, but the plethora of meaningless equality laws promulgated by your political class e.g. Christmas lights may offend non-christians. This was not recommended by immigrants but by people in the town hall of a local council.
On to immigration, we live in a world where trade and commerce is vital. The British Trade all over the world e.g. Shell drill and explore for oil in Nigeria an the wealth created as a result funnelled to these shores. Is Nigeria also part of the United Kingdom? The world has moved on and whilst immigration needs controlling, the equality policies promulgated have missed their purpose, which is let common sense prevail.
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In future, I would like everyone to refer to me as "Mr Superman, here is my cashcard and PIN Number XXXX" (with the xs replaced by their genuine PIN number).
I will be most offended if people do not do this.
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To be honest, I think some people just enjoy being offended. Perhaps it makes them feel superior to constantly poke holes in what other people are saying, or perhaps they are afraid of what a sensible debate will open up, and seek to prevent one before it starts by descending to the "you didn't pronounce that quite right" level.
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@39 Archimedes UK
"To those who are constantly worried about being caught out by the shifting sands of "political correctness"/courtesy: Just don't define people by what they look like or where they're from - judge them by who they are. "
Can we make Archimedes King of the forum for the day?
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#12 - LifeIsForLearning - Making sense to me.
It has to reiterated that the African-Caribbean lady in question is an individual and doesn't speak for everyone who comes from the Caribbean of African descent (for all we know her Mother might disagree with her).
Thinking (for instance) Jesse Jackson Sr. is the voice of African Americans / Burt Kwouk is the voice of British-Chinese is ridiculous so we shouldn't take her opinion as that either.
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A very reasoned article by Mark Easton
If mass uncontrolled immmigration had not been allowed over the past 20 years then we would not be having this discussion.
Trouble is we cannot have a grown up debate about immigration without race being involved.
The Tories used to talk about immigration but now know its a minefield and better left alone. So we are left with UKIP and the dreaded BNP.
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TOLERANCE OF DEMOCIDE?
greyHolmeboy (#42) "Most people in this country, are very tolerant to immigrants,"
At least watch the video in post #53. Then go and look at California's demographics, America's first failed state. Then bear in mind that between 1950 and 2009 the populations of Pakistan and Bangladesh have each tripled from under 50m to 150m each. The mean IQ of each is about 81. That of sub-Saharan Africa is ~70. Try and do some thinking in the language of demographics and Gaussian distributions where the SD=15, and whilst you are at it, look at the relationship of GDP to IQ, and TFR. Then look at the doctor-patient ratios, and try to work out why that is as it is. Please bear in mind that intelligence is nearly all genetic. Finally, talking to crops and livestook does not improve their yields. See where I am going with that?
Am I an evil racist, or a scientist? (Hmmm science not too popular these days is it?).
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The whole situation is so totally out of hand, with mainstream politicians, who have caused this mess in the first place, tripping over themselves to do nothing about it, that it's no wonder the BNP have managed to gain a foothold in white, working class areas which have been completely abandoned by the Labour Party in its rush to cosy up to the middle-class.
(Thoroughly enjoyed the kicking given to Griffin last night, btw - the man came over as a poorly-researched, ideas-lite fool who wouldn't last five minutes against the likes of Paxman. How about it, Beeb?)
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The language of race is a minefield only if we tread gingerly it is one of those "grasp the nettle firmly and it becomes a stick to beat you enemies" issues.
If people took ownership of words and made them their own they cease to be an insult.
As SarahJay55 mentions in post 18 "Fashions change in language in all areas - what is acceptable fluctuates, especially if a term is picked up and used in an abusive way. The "P" word is just an abbreviation like "Brit" - except it isn't because it came to be deliberately used as an insult."
I have been called an "Fword Brit" and told "All you Fword Brits are the same" did I treat it as a racial slur? No. no more than I would for being told that all ******* Football Club supporters are thick etc.
We need dialog not offence to enable us to bring an end to racism, sexism ageism and the coming sizeism. If we can't then dark souled people will continue to whisper in corners!
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I thought the most telling point last night was made by a black gentleman in the audience when he asked the question,'Isn't it true that the main reason the BNP have been successful in gaining vote recently is because of the catastrophic immigration policies of the labour government'and Jack Straw did everything to avoid answering it direcly (what a supprising flaw in a politician) When will the Government realise that the big big big issue with the average person in the street is not the economy, unemployment, the state of the NHS or the state of the education system or even Racism ( although I am not stupid enough to deny it exists)but immigration gone balistic and thouroughly out of control both legal and illegal immigration and creating not diversity and inclusion but ghettos and resentment and contributes to all of the problems mentioned above. I look around and wonder who I can vote for at the next election. I know for sure it definatley will not be Labour who I have voted for all my life and nor will it be conservative for all thier lip service they are just a mirror image of each other with slightly diffferent rhetoric, It wont't be Lib Dems either so who does that leave? I am absolutely sure I am not the only average person thinking alonmg these lines.
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People who describe themselves as 'white' do not have an idea why the others react in the way that they do. The reason is simple - 'white' people have never been, in the recent modern history of 200 years or so, the victims of systematic oppression like what other non white communities in Africa and Asia have - colonialism and slavery. The colour 'white' has always been protrayed as the standard, superior and European.
What amazed me in yesterday's discussion as well as today's reactions in the media from people is how immigration as an issue is code word for Africans and Asians - non'white'groups of people. Most of the numbers of immigrants in the country now come from other European countries - Poland and other former communist countries. And there is no way the government can turn them down as they are part of EU. Immigrants from non -EU countries go through a whole vetting procedure before getting access into UK and it is not as easy as most people in Britain are led to believe.
I want someone to answer this question; What is wrong with some poor African or Asian coming to work in Europe? At least they are not taking over British firms, farms and companies by force like colonialists. They are simply content to work and earn a life? Is that too much to ask? I don't want to grab land like your forefathers who did that years ago, I want to work as a cleaner or a security guard or a driver. You can keep your company as long as I keep my job. Is that too much to ask?
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A previous post says "Incidentally, the women is wrong. The correct phrase is in fact Afro-Carribean ... as in Judeao-Christian or Anglo-Saxon or Franco-German. It's just a common construct of the indigenous language!"
The difference is that when filling out a form, you rarely (if ever) see "Please tell us you race:
Afro-Carribean
Judeao-Christian
Anglo-Saxon
Franco-German
If I said "see that anglo-saxon man over there" in conversation, I think all would think it strange.
Further more, I dont think there is any issue in referring to a persons colour to describe one of their characteristics. To me, it is the same as saying the tall one, the one with the glasses or the large one (technically I should not say that either - but if one is large, then I can safely decribe them as large)
The problem is not that people describe others using the colour of their skin or ethnic origin, but that some people are shallow minded enough to read more into it then there actually was and then take offence to it.
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This happened on television before about five years ago an elderly white chap in a discussion programme seemed vey pleased that he made a contribution using a term 'Afro Carribean' that he though showed his sensitivities. One of the chatterati a black woman shouted at him explaining she was 'African Carribean' not a hair cut. It seemed very harsh and even more so when a few days later I picked The Voice the black newspaper and the Afro version was being used several times in the editorial.
I am from an ethnic minority, but not a visible one being a Romany Gipsy. Some of the really nasty comments I hear in casual conversation from people of all races and colours re Travellers really annoy me and when I inform people of my heritage some are even more offensive after the comment by the incredulity of a gipsy having a professional job and wearing a suit!
Anyway I am now a PPC for UKIP and no they are not a racist party I wouldn't join if they were. But they do seem to have a little bit more courage than the other parties in actually having the 'space not race' conversation.
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Why is the term "Afro-Carribean" so offensive to the lady who corrected Jack Straw, advising him to use the term "African Carribean"?
I am English but have never taken offence to the use of the term "Anglo Saxon" or "Anglo Irish Agreement". Do People from France take issue with being referred to as "Franco" as in "Franco Prussian war"?
We have become so shallow minded in this country - influenced by spin and facade rather than what lies in people's hearts. Taking offence at the phrasiology of the kind hearted is as bad as believing the silver tongued charm of the racist.
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#39
"The lady in the audence probably also took issue with the pronunciation of Caribbean because it's not the correct way to pronounce it - It's not [Carry-bee-an] but [Ca-rib-bean]."
Actually neither is "correct" - or either, depending on where you live, as both are sanctioned by common usage, one mostly in the UK and the other mostly in the USA.
The term actually derives from "Carib", a local people and language who were there before Europeans and Africans arrived, so if there was to be a "correct" pronunciation it should be [Carib-een] or [Carib-e-an].
A quick search on the internet found that there are small numbers of people of (mainly) Carib heritage on several islands but their language died out before WWII.
Pedantry like that we saw last night is worst when it's incorrect!
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Surely insisting on the difference between Afro Caribbean and African Caribbean is petty and petulant? Clearly Afro Caribbean is not meant to cause offense and is no less accurate than African Caribbean (unlike 'Asian' when used to refer solely to Indian subcontinent ethnicity, when Asia does consists of other regions). I think one needs to be sensible in these things and if a term is neither meant to cause offence nor grossly inaccurate or nonsensical, there is no need to make a fuss. Personally, I'm offended when suffering racial abuse regardless of whether my race or religion was accurately identified or not, and I'm just amused when I am mistaken for another ethnicity without ill will.
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I agree that some of this political correctness has got out of hand. Sometimes in a conversation the quickest way to describe someone less familiar to you that the other person may know well is to describe how they look - if that person has black skin then that could be quite a distinctive characteristic of the way they look within a group. I was in such a situation recently, referring in conversation to a guy who I had only briefly chatted to who happened to be black (who would have been well known to the person I was talking to), and I found myself trying to describe other characteristics like his build, hairstyle etc just because I was self-conscious about being PC. But surely this is ridiculous?
I have particularly big hair - I would expect someone to refer to me as such as a quick descriptor of what I look like. Immediately you've narrowed down the possibilities of which person you're trying to identify. It's just a visual observation, not some kind of comment on that person's culture, race, personality etc. It's a physical description!
Even typing this out I've felt like I'm treading on egg-shells.
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Being a black man with a white girlfriend, mixed race daughter and another child due in a week or so. I feel obliged to comment on this whole BNP/Race/Question time saga. We live in a global one world economy and as the saying goes 'money makes the world go round'. We all benefit one way or another from this and we all suffer a certian degree of 'bother' fromt his too. So isnt it about time the debate shifted from talking about our differnces which by the way will always exist to talking about providing an equal society for us all.
As for 'Speaking Race' I personally think we should all try and do less of it.
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Two things I know in this minefield:
1) people who refer to political correctness invariably hanker after the days when you could make racially abusive "jokes" without fear of being pulled up, and when "On the Buses" and Bernard Manning were on the telly; and
2)anyone who starts by saying irrelevant gibberish like "I'm not racist - I work with black people" is not fit to join the debate and is probably someone referred to in 1) above.
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Good post.
The increase in popularity of the BNP is largely due to the reluctance of the major parties to listen to what the electorate really feel about immigration. Perhaps because, as people who may actually have to run the country, they realise they probably cannot run the economy without immigration. Not in any way that would get them re-elected anyway.
The fundamental problem lies in a workforce that consists of a large number of people who have no skills, many of whom have never worked and are largely unemployable for those and a number of other reasons. And they won't take low-paid work as long as their benefits keep coming anyway. They dream of being the next instant success in music and shout about the injustice of the world's failure to give them whatever they want without effort.
They are above the law, since a criminal record really only affects those who look for work.
So - who is going to empty the dustbins without an influx of people from... somewhere else?
And at the other end of the spectrum, with so many who have wasted their opportunities in life - where are the doctors etc coming from? The great unskilled are still entitled to medical care etc, so we have fewer capable people looking after an increasing population of those who cannot contribute (the sick/disabled and the elderly) or will not contribute (the above) or those who are seen as "having done their bit" (the ever-increasing group of the retired).
Then we also need IT people for example, but even though we have enough of those, but they are understandably expensive, so big business uses it's leverage with government to piggy-back the opportunity to bring in cheap labour from abroad, making a bad situation worse.
It's a mess. Immigration is the short-term fix - buy in what you need, but the real solution is to educate the population and put them to work. And those who are not so well educated need to be doing the less glamorous work. And to achieve that we need a welfare system that only helps those who genuinely need help, and giving only exactly as much help as they actually need. Imagine the state provided you with a bed in a hostel and meals cooked in the hostel - you'd like the look of that minimum wage job a lot more, wouldn't you?
But doing that is a recipe for political foot-shooting, which is why the major parties don't want to go there. Enter the BNP, forcing the debate onto those issues. Whatever else you may think of the BNP, be grateful to them for that at least - these are the issues that are killing our society, and with the recent figures showing the greatest ever increase in UK population round the corner, heading rapidly to over 70 million, we need desperately need politicians who can come to a cross-party consensus on these issues - or failing that politicians prepared to sacrifice the possibility of re-election to get the right thing done (yeah, I don't believe it either).
Right now, the more influence the BNP exert on major party policy the better. I may even vote for them at the next general election if no other major party is prepared to stand up and be counted on the CORE issues, not just immigration. Where are the Liberals on this? It must be a chance for them to adopt the BNP mantle on immigration and gain major ground on Con/Lab?
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I would just like to point out that immigration is not uncontrolled. In fact the process is rather laborious and very expensive - I'm talking at least a couple of thousand pounds in Home Office fees. Not a small sum of money for two students wanting to get married, and even if you've paid approval is not guaranteed. If you take a moment to scan the 3 x A4 list of rules on the home office website, plus bear in mind that any changes are applied retroactively to everyone since it's policy and not statute, then you'll find it is far from uncontrolled.
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While everyone is jumping up and down on afro some people dont like the basterdisation of words so if you actualy look at the wording and culture our constant corectness you get Jack saying yes bushy haired Caribbean lady :)
http://www.yourdictionary.com/afro
Afro definition ☆ Afro (af′rō′)
adjective
designating or of a full, bushy hair style, as worn by some blacks
Etymology: see Afro-
noun pl. Afros -·ros′
an Afro hair style
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People have chosen to be defined by race skin colour religion. If you live in a country you are that country and must obey the law of that country. Religion is racism God is racist being jealous he gets very upset if you worship someone else.
There is no god its manmade the biggest lie we tell to children is that God exists.
Of course this lie is covered by the fact that all so called "Good Books" Bible Koran etc tell everyone that all God really wants is the end of the world and everything will be ok.
Gods not real we are overpopulated to the point where millions will starve and war will persist through the ages its the only way to keep the population down.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
A lot of good points Mark.
The problem is that most people are afraid of causing offence, which is natural but silly.
We all get offended from time to time and no doubt give offence to others but that is just part of life and no big deal really.
I remember the world famous ex-boxer Muhammed Ali once saying on TV that he didn't want any daughter of his marrying a white man and at the time I wasn't at all offended by that - he simply wished to keep his black roots in the family. He further objected to being called coloured by someone who didn't wish to give offence but ended up doing just that!
Race is an issue all over the world and so is mass immigration, you aren't going to change human nature that quickly.
The world is divided, some want multiculturalism while others feel that keeping the individual qualities of each race and creed is more important - both views have merit and neither is wrong so let's allow proper debate without calling people bigots or other names.
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Many contributors suggest that we set aside our concerns about using inappropriate language or inadvertently insulting someone--and just speak plainly and with integrity. I agree with the principle. The problem is, however, that the Government has introduced laws such that if a person feels "offended" by a remark, he or she can report the matter to the police, who are then obliged to investigate the so-called "hate crime". In other words, it is dangerous to offer an opinion or perspective that might, just might, cause offence or be used by the other party as a means of silencing critics by initiating a formal complaint. Worse still, the burden of proof then lies with the alleged offender, who is guilty unless he or she can prove that no offence was intended.
There's a lot of suppressed anger out there about laws that favour minorities and suppress debate, which, I fear may spontaneously ignite unless the Government stops trying to discredit anyone who expresses a sincerely held opinion. The flames are getting hotter.
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There always used to be a polite term - 'a person of colour'. It didn't give offence to anyone and could refer to anyone who was not white caucasian. Quite easy really.
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Hello Mark and Everyone who have commented on his blog. It's Ms African-Caribbean here!
Wow! I’ve got here a bit late. I could never have planned this level of interest. This is obviously a topical issue going from all the comments made. Whether for or against, it’s something that clearly needs to be openly discussed. Talking about differences in ethnicity / origins in the pursuit of knowledge is not offensive. You know or can feel when someone is trying to be offensive. Avoiding those uncomfortable feelings does not alleviate the need to know about our similarities and differences across all sorts of boundaries.
I haven’t read all the comments yet, but plan to overtime. The different perspectives are interesting. I can only speak from my own experiences and in the context of a programme hosted in Black History Month, involving the BNP and Nick Griffin’s denials about what they stand for or not, including issues around certain genomes being made extinct, Black people walking like monkeys, Nazism and the KKK etc. I was spontaneously moved to add the comment I made when I was lucky enough to eventually get picked to speak.
I am also quite happy to be referred to as Black or Black British but, LOL, I do not see myself as a Black Afro, Afro-Caribbean or Afro anything. Now, I have worn my hair in an afro in the past, just as some of my white friends (yes friends, we go in and out of each others homes, eat each others foods, laugh together etc.), used to perm their hair. So I have nothing against the Afro, it is just not my origins. I wont go into it now, but I am proud of my origins, I am proud of where I am now. I do not see a conflict.
I like my tea to be prepared in a clean cup, brewed strong, with milk (white) and hold the sugar. I would not automatically assume that anyone I made tea for would want it the way I do. So I ask, ‘how do you like your tea?’ I do something similar when I’m not sure how to pronounce someone’s name or to address them or state their origins (if that’s necessary). I ask the person. I make no assumptions.
If it wasn’t for my Asian British friend I would not have got on that programme so I thank God for my diversity of friends - none of whom I refer to as a hair-style or vice versa. We are comfortable with the fact that we of different origins, with diverse cultures but nevertheless British.
What Mark’s article did not say is that at the end of the programme Jack Straw came up to apologise to me and we shook hands and embraced before he departed. I was not accusing him of being racist by using the Afro terminology. It just came across to me, at that moment, that if politicians claim to be listening to the public, then they need to take the lead in being comfortable in the use of appropriate descriptive words / language. My origin is Africa. I therefore prefer to be referred to as African-Caribbean.
With Regards.
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Great to hear from you, MissAfrCar. I was wondering all along what you thought of the whole debate!
I'm interested you prefer the term African-Caribbean, though you describe your origin as African. Why do we lump together people of African origin and people of Caribbean origin, anyway? Maybe we should start a new terminology with British African and British Caribbean...?
I agree, Mark, I find it all a bit confusing and feel I'm walking on eggshells. (NB I'm white British though only 1 of my grandparents was born in the UK.)
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Looks like the NU Labour "Social Engineering" experiment requires some more tinkering, it would seem.
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Interesting article with many insightful opionins expressed and not so many, but still a fair few ill-educated, illogical and savage remarks. It's sad that numerous people I have liked have eventually blabbed that 'foreigners are taking our jobs' (or more acurately the jobs not suitable for our elevated status but still something we'd like the option of doing if the benefits recieved is insufficient to save up for a holiday or if one finally decides it's wrong to continue cheating hard-working tax-payers whilst basking in the comfort of an 'on-the-house' flat/house with a further £50-80 'pocket money').
The rise of the BNP strongly relates to the lack of integration in some areas. Most, if not a solid 99% of people would not vote for a racist party (regardless of country and race dynamics involved) if they themselves had positive experiences with people of a different origin/race/colour/religion. Ill-conceived stereo-types and prejudices can easilt turn into self-pity fuelled hatred on illogical and deceptive foundations. Yes there are some educated folks who vote or have voted for the BNP but they are rather mis-educated and lacking the ability to be rational.
Without the ethnic-minoroties in the UK, we would not even be half the force we are in internationally recognised sports which is a key source of national pride. The NHS and many private health institutions would would seize to operate. Public transport (particularly buses) would grind to a halt. The government will lose billions in tax revenues and hundereds of thousands would become unemployed. The choice of food available would be rather boring and rather limited too actually! Even if delicious, I can only do fish and chips once a week!
I would like to point out something in regards to Question Time, something I'm dissapointed no one in the audience or panel brought to attention. Nick Griffin claimed that the Koran advocates'women victims of rape should be stoned to death and all Jews are Islam's enemies.
This is false as nowhere in the Koran does it say thhis!
It is a gross injustice to tarnish the Islamic holy book in this manner. Furthermore, I was disgusted by the recent Panorama episode. The intolerable attitude on some of these estates is freightening. The program also confirms that hatred levels are highest against Muslims above any other groupcurrently. The reasoning for this just defies belief even as much as the behavior of that terribe 11 year old boy. I hope his parents and everyone else attached were thoroughly ashamed of themselves.
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A reply to "senor_yappy"...
As a Welshman, I do not object to being called British. I object to being called English! My passport states that I am British, but also I had to confirm being born in Wales.
We are after all, part of the United Kingdom, but we are still 4 separate countries/states - before the squabble starts, yes I am well aware that Wales is a principality and not a country per se.
One would be offended if you concluded that someone from New Zealand was Australian, or a Canadian was American, and this is the same scenario. Just because I may speak English, live in England, doesn't mean I am English.
As one other poster, and obviously a frequent advert says, "Simples".
Cymru am byth! Dwi'n Cymraeg ac yn falch!
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85 missjellyspoons
"Maybe we should start a new terminology with British African and British Caribbean...?"
I think we need fewer but more universally accepted terms of description, so that people can talk openly about this important issue without feeling like they are wlaking on eggshells.
What if the "British African" was mistakenly called a "British Caribbean" and took offense ????
The problem for many white British people is that they cannot keep up with the changing euphamisms and political correctness, and therefore fear to talk about race in case they use an incorrect term and appear racist or give offense.
It is simply ridiculous for Jack Straw to be taken to task over this when quite obviously he was not being offensive, and in fact was standing up for the "... [insert non-offensive word of choice]..." people of the UK.
Part of the problem today is that someone is always ready to TAKE offense when none was given or meant, and this helps no one. In a sane world we should be able to distinguish between a useful descriptive term and abusive usage of that same term.
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"Afro-Caribbean" may not be a perfect term in its description of the entire and very diverse "black" culture in Britain ... however it is widely known and understood to be non-offensive and therefore safe to use by non-black people who wish to constructively address race problems in Britain.
It serves nothing to try to change it or come up with a newer, shinier more 2009 version - if it isn't broken, don't try to fix it.
White people are referred to as "caucasian" but most of them don't even know where the caucasus is, let alone have roots there!
More important is to have simple well-understood terms that allow everyone to discuss issues openly without confusion.
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While Griffin has it wrong, his success is a symptom of the lack of representation for English people and values. There is a need for a party who represents nationalist needs and values. It's not about skin colour, race or religion, but what identifies us as English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish and collectively British. People for centuries have come here to be part of this 'Britishness'.
It does seem we're too bogged down in terminology, making discussions of nationalism a taboo. I hate that the standard knee jerk reaction is to assume offence and label anyone who dares to talk about it as racist.
The daft thing is, there's more genetic diversity between two chimpanzees in 1000 miles of forest than there is in any two humans. We are the same breed.
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African Carribean? Too much terminology. It needs simplifying. Or else I could be Saxo-Danish-Scottish-Irish-English White. anything else would be offensive...
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@peej2k6
"I personally find her pronounciation of Carribbean particular offensive, as she Americanised her it to Carrib-Ian rather than Ca-rib-ian, which would be the correct way to say it."
I'm sorry to be pedantic but it's actually the other way round... ?
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Never mind race - some people on here have been using the term 'idiot' negatively. I am an idiot, and find this offensive. I can't help being an idiot, I was born that way.
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It's exactly this kind of uncertainty and 'walking-on-eggshells' that gets people's backs up. There are as many different terms for different races as there are races - in fact probably loads more. It's impossible for anyone to decide which are deemed offensive and which are OK. Black rappers use the n- word loads more often than any other race uses it, but I'm sure they're not anti-black!! The acid test should be whether you actually intend to give offence. If you do, then you can offend with any word you choose, even the 'nice' ones.
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It’s a real shame that more time is spent discussing the terminology than the point.
In the UK we’ve failed generations of people, for example, educationally, because we’ve not been able to have the sort of conversations we need to about why certain sections of the community are being failed- due, in a large part, to decision and policy makers being scared of being considered racist.
While we all have the right to be described- should we need to be- in the language that we prefer (mine is tall, and slim, please) , there are so many variations on a theme. What’s right today, is unacceptable tomorrow, and it’s a waste of brainpower and all other resources to spend all of our time being politically correct about the terminology and doing nothing about the challenges. .
One of my friends classes herself a dispersed African, tho is the first to admit dh she’s never been to Africa in her life. That doesn’t matter- it’s her heritage and her choice. What matters, in my opinion, is that we have these conversations about how people are treated, and why, and make sure this country has something for everyone
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Why are people so obsessed with not offending each other? Does it matter? Has anyone ever died because of been offended? No.
So people really need to stop being such cry babies, if a black person doesn't like it if i refer to them (obviously well meaning) as afro carribean and they get offended? Then thats THEIR PROBLEM not mine.
I will not have my right to express myself curtailed by morons who are so insecure about themselves a mere word uttered in the wrong context makes them cry. They obviously have serious issues that are not my concern.
Lots of things offend me, the BBC constantly offends me with its propoganda about how imaprtial and perfect it is then employing Nick Robinson as political editor when it is plain he has taken it upon himself to be a spin doctor for the labour party inside the BBC.
But does it really effect my day to day life? No i am a grown up and can deal with it.
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Re comment 73 -
What I want to know is, in these ostensibly politically correct times, someone can post a comment on here that refers to 'if there was a holocaust' and it not be considered racist?
Or how someone can refer to Jews being over represented in the Lords, or being neurotic, or financiers and it not be considered racist.
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Why is it that the term "African" is used to describe blacks? What about whites born in Africa what does that make them? Where do they belong? If "indiginous" claims are made they should apply to every country and if you are a minority in that country accept it or return to your majority land don't expect preference in any way as a minority. Historical arguments are becoming boring and irrelevant, esp to younger generations.
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To be fair to the specific lady on QT, she didn't actually proclaim being offended, or accuse racism. However, in general, on this matter, we took the wrong turn when determining that racism was defined practically solely by the person making the accusation; dismissing intent of the speaker. If "intent" had been deemed necessary for racism, rather than immaterial, then any difficulty could have been quickly diffused; as easily as if someone accidently called another by the wrong name, or mistook an identity. No need for the ridiculous charges, no need for offence, no opportunity for victimhood, fewer barriers and egg-shells, respect for individual expression, thus a stronger common focus on the serious cases of racism where there is a vindictive intent.
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I thought I'd just clarify why the women made the comment about the term 'afro-caribbean'. The term is not offensive but it was incorrectly used as a term for ALL black people when its definition is only for black people of caribbean origin with african ancestry (think of slavery)- not African people.
I assume that the woman meerly meant to highlight the distinction between African and Caribbean people as you would with Indian and Pakistani people by wanting the panel to reference black people as African-Caribbean.
Fair?
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Hearing all these PC religionists squirming about the fact that they`ve still got their "horrid" White skins makes me chuckle.
"Everybody says there is this RACE problem. Everybody says this RACE problem will be solved when the third world pours into EVERY white country and ONLY into white countries."
"The Netherlands and Belgium are more crowded than Japan or Taiwan, but nobody says Japan or Taiwan will solve this RACE problem by bringing in millions of third worlders and quote assimilating unquote with them."
"Everybody says the final solution to this RACE problem is for EVERY white country and ONLY white countries to "assimilate," i.e., intermarry, with all those non-whites."
"What if I said there was this RACE problem and this RACE problem would be solved only if hundreds of millions of non-blacks were brought into EVERY black country and ONLY into black countries?"
"How long would it take anyone to realise I'm not talking about a RACE problem. I am talking about the final solution to the BLACK problem?"
"And how long would it take any sane black man to notice this and what kind of psycho black man wouldn't object to this?"
"But if I tell that obvious truth about the ongoing program of genocide against my race, the white race, Liberals and respectable conservatives agree that I am a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews."
"They say they are anti-racist. What they are is anti-white."
"Anti-racist is a code word for anti-white."
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This is nothing about race. Sorry but I find the BBC appears to be particularly silent about the prospect of Tony Blair being made president of the Eusropean Unity, and I can contain myself no longer. Have we forgotten already what it was like to have that man in control during his latter years? Iraq - the biggest con on the British public in my lifetime. We are still at war and he was in power when that started too. God knows what his "gift of the gabb" would do if he held centre stage of Europe. NO NO NO and as for Gordon Brown - I have alwys advocated, give him a fair hearing - but now - he must have flipped his lid - sack him. It is enough to make me vote Tory.
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103 its plenty enough to vote Tory and never ever ever to vote Labour again .
All this talk about how to address people makes me smile , anyone would think its only us Brit whites who have a tendency to racism , well no it cuts both ways , i have had racist remarks made to me , in the workplace one im sorry to say was a manager .. I did not complain maybe i should have done ..
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I find calling people white offensive and somehow pejorative. Worst of all being the "white" working class term, I would prefer caucasian European.
Thank you
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What century are we living in? The sheer pig ignorance of some people on this blog is mind-blowing.
I for one can't believe that the term 'coloured' is still used so freely in this country - a term that, to me, is an ugly remnant from the days of apartheid that should have been disgarded long ago. The term 'Afro' just makes me think of the 60s, man!
The same people who would not think twice of using the 'N' word think nothing of saying 'Red Indians' although to a Native American it
is deemed as offensive as the 'N' word - mostly because their skin is not, never was, red but also because THEY are the indigenous people of the Americas.
How much effort does it actually take to refer to people from a particular ethnic background by the name that THEY prefer? And why do so many Brits take offence at the very idea of it?
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my daughter in law hails from the Caribbean, and she refers to herself as Afro-Caribbean, she has no problem at all with it, as she says, "it is a long time since anyone in our family came from or visited Africa."
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I find it difficult to get the terms for racial groups right. I prefer to use the word "coloured" where others would say "black" because I am so conscious of the perjorative meaning of the word "black" in English.
"Black" has always been a term associated with darkness, evil and things that are not clean, so I am unwilling to use that word to descibe fellow members of the human race. If I say "coloured" I do not mean to be offensive. The problem is that we all have different vocabularies that do not always mesh together.
I remember some years ago a character in a comedy show saying we were not black & white but various shades of pink, brown etc. We should be grown-up enough to treat each other as equals without having to label everybody by race, gender,sexuality or age when not appropriate.
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anyone watch the 'Event: How Racist Are You?' on Channel4 earlier?
what a fascinating experiment J Elliott conducted, most instructive.
unfortunately, the programme was way too short to do this important issue justice.
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Straw told us the was third generation Jewish which is why he was there being a good member of the Friends of Israel along with Blair and Brown and Miliban. That is race when you cling to a religious belief as this is what is meant by race not the fact that we are human and it should come before your beliefs as no one is born with a belief we are indoctrinated into it by parents. Mandleson is Jewish in nature his grand father Herbert Morrison passed it on to his grandson and it has been used to get to were he has got to apart from the personality you have to have to be an PM. Which is very vain self obsessed and lacking in empathy. But that is part of a personality. Nick Griffin shows all of these traits and is encourage to do so by having follows which is what he loves he did not suffer on Question Night he enjoyed the unhappiness he created its called narcissistic supply he spoke about Britian when he means England as being white when he about eleven years before he was born this is rubbish I am older than him and I have never know Britian to be totally white it is about 96% white even now but never totally white and London is not what was in the audience which was set up to get at him I have never seem so many black people in Question Time. I would say many of them come from the gated communities that West London is full off so if any of these people were into the BNP they would not say so we do believe or the media made us believe that that the only people who join this party are working class white but Griffin in not working class or state educated and his parents are still Tories so it was unfair in that and the BNP were there but they were not asked much.
The media encourages racist views and the BBC is the leader nothing about Gaza because we did not want to upset the Jewish community who is very influential in this country something that is kept hidden now we have the American rabbinical here and they are on the television laws are being passed here which are USA laws but as long as the Govenment says nothing and the media closes ranks then people are stopped from expressing themselves and so we are not democratic really.
The likes of Griffin will never get into power as unlike Hitler none of the wealthy will back him, Hitler did not rise to the top by being able to rant.
He was backed by the rich and powerful and his narcissism was massaged and he was give rights that he was not entitled to he was also wined and dinned by those who wanted to bring in the New World Order but did not want to be seen, but Hitler sold his soul for this power and like all total power it corrupts and those whom the gods wish to destroy the first make mad which is what he did that and the drug taking. So bringing Nick Griffin on to the limelight of the BBC was nothing the Joe bloggs did not care as its them that have to put up with the BNP not the BBC and its masters. Now have an open discussion about the influence of the Jewish race in this country and its power no Muslim or Hindu has it.
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This is a very common tactic--to trip someone up on a verbal nuance because they haven't caught up on the latest round of updating the acceptable term to describe a minority group. It's a despicable tactic, usually used to create a fake controversy and get coverage for your group, but what a joy to see it deployed on Jack Straw, who otherwise was let off very lightly.
To put it another way:
If a white man is alone in a forest, is he still a racist?
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DeniseCullum222 #110.
"..Hitler did not rise to the top by being able to rant. He was backed by the rich and powerful.."
for instance, the (US) Vanderbilt Foundation paid $2M in the thirties for the results of experiments conducted by J Mengele.
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112. At 1:20pm on 30 Oct 2009, jr4412 wrote:
"for instance, the (US) Vanderbilt Foundation paid $2M in the thirties for the results of experiments conducted by J Mengele."
Ahh,Dr Mengele a.k.a "The angel of death" who was seen at every single concentration camp at the same time,if the eye-witnesses are to be believed.
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I found it wildly funny watching the non-BNP members of the panel trying to out-PC one another, only to have Jack Straw caught out in inattention to the minutiae of racial diplomacy. Let's be honest - Political Correctness and its attempt to change people's attitudes has failed, only producing confusion and resentment through the convoluted misuse of language, and through intolerance of any other point of view but its own. The BNP and their ilk will only benefit from all this until the Political classes engage with people honestly over issues of immigration and national identity instead of hiding behind mealymouthed platitudes.
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After reading some of the posts here, the ghost of Adolf Hitler must be delighted with the results of his handiwork - but I don't mean the BNP. I mean the idea of 'race'. How can so much hot air be expended on such a muddleheaded notion? - it's a bad idea based in misunderstood nineteenth century eugenics and a ragbag of prejudices and nationalist resentment toward 'foreigners'. People are people, and any attempt to lump them into groups by some notional shared characteristic is doomed to failiure.
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Oh dear,Jam2day needs to do his/her homework:
Law: Genocide
Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide from 1948 defines genocide as any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Notice the words "racial" and "group" there,Jam2Day?
No one can plead, “they were just a social construct” at a genocide tribunal.
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i would never vote for the bnp, but they do have a point,firstly most emigrants speak English,cous they are here to work legally,filled in the proper paper work etc,and have jobs lined up ,or already have a placement when they arrive into the country,the bnp was not on about that,its about illegal immigrants that come in by the back door,or over stay there visas,am not bothered about how many are doctors,teachers or how qualified they are the simple fact that they have broken British law by there actions,most are non English speaking,regardless of colour of skin,once they get in to britain some will go for asylum most will go and find there friends or family members then disappear,i want to know how do these illegal immigrants make a living as they wont have national insurance numbers,i can assure you it wont be legal that's for sure,so the bnp are right there,also,bogus asylum seekers,yes there is such a thing,lie to get asylum,there lives are not in danger,if so how can they not prove it,why don't they go to nearest safe country with there family members all together or are they spineless men who leave the family behind to be murdered,raped persecuted,waiting months on the other side of the channel for their chance to jump on a truck,all that time waisted ,they could have been working with the authorities in the nearest country to get their families out of the country they fled. the bnp are also right in saying most emigrants don't integrate with the rest of the population,straw will only be thinking of the higher middle classes not the majority of minority's do, all straw as to do is go and stay a few months in a housing estate were he is the minority in colour ,faith,custom,am sure he will see what the rest of the lower white/pink classes are coming from.am sure there would be just as much racist remarks about him ,its not just us white/pinks that have a view of our culture, all emigrants will always think that there way is better and all others are inferior,but the immigrants with duel passports will always be loyal to their roots,it dose not matter how many generations they have stayed here,i should know i have a British passport,but am not British,am Scottish and always will be,just like a Pakistani saying i have a British passport but will describe him/her self as a British Pakistani,the difference is i would lay my life down for Britain,would they do the same ,mark you there is some majority's in the forces ,but not to the same extent as to head of population,6 million plus and very few brown ,black,yellow,whys that then?its just been on the news that an appeal has been sent out for more Asian people to donate organs,why don't they,ho yes there faith,bet they would except a organ if needed,as for indigenous people,yes there is such a thing,it comes from many hundreds of years of living in the same land were as all is forgotten about were you originated from,Aland that you ancestors worked,lived,loved ,and died for,that little piece of land that you call home,i don't like when people come into my home and try and change it to meet there agendas.the Afro caribbean,whats she all about,has she got a chip on her shoulder ,if she really thinks shes been victimised try being,white and Scottish,the English are not very fond of us,and we get called all sorts scotch is one of my pet hates,scotch is a drink,you don't see us running and shouting racist do you now,its about time the Africans of colour,put to rest about colonialism,slavery aside and start working together,your hatred for the British is targeted at a generation of whites that had nothing to do with slavery,maybe you should go and find the lords,sirs barons,that are still very much wealthy by such a terrible trade,we the Scots have been put upon by the English,and were white ,i don't understand why you hold onto it,is it not true slavery was riff for many centuries before the British arrived in Africa,but i don't see the same urgency to put the Arabs or the African people who would go into villages and steal young women,children and young men.in some cases entire villages were taken,by black Africans,but no just blame the british ,all the Brits done was made more money than there black/Arab traders,these slaves were treated just as bad as with the Arab's/Africans.i could go on and on about it ,but am not it just makes my blood boil.
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Sensitive travellers inquire and are interested in the customs, cultures and the do'-and-don't of the place they are visiting. Perhaps learning a few essential words and phrases for basic communications. In return, the locals, seeing strangers with strange ways would give allowances for unintentional trespasses. We are often travellers in our own country.
Culture is much more about external and physical appeareances like food and dress. Culture is also about social structures and relationships.
Every culture has its dark and sinister side which favours some at the expense of others.
Multi-racial, yes. Diversity, yes, Multi-cultural, with reservation.
No country is large and strong enough to accept and mix together many cultures with their unrestraint glory, confusing idiosyncrasies and sinister hidden shadows. We must remember that favourtism is the other side of discrimination.
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We as whites seem to easily offend the ethnic minority whom we have given a welcoming open door to safety, security and many benefits. We support their rights, fund, support and celebrate their beliefs, we give them access to medication and save their lives if they’re ill. And even when we as a country were on its knees, we were still generous to the core.
I understand why there is friction between the races, it’s simple, we are being taken for a ride. The saying ‘give them an inch and they will take a mile’ applies here. And don’t gasp in horror, think about it first with an open logical mind.
I have noticed around the world in countries where many minorities come from, they have no rights or very few. I can understand why wanting to live in a safe country would be ideal but we cannot play host to everyone otherwise we break the backbone of everything we stand for that’s great. I also wonder why minorities are so insistent we bow to their demands when they could not get the same in their land of origin without being beheaded or something similarly grotesque; it’s a bit of a cheek really isn’t it?
Communities have been taken over, yes taken over by different nationalities, and different faiths. Everywhere you go unless it is an upper-class neighbourhood (notice that!) you will see change, it is like being in a foreign country and it is scary.
We are angry because we have this forced upon us, we are made to feel like racists when we celebrate our beliefs, we tone down Christmas, teach our children to be tolerant of others yet WE are being completely disrespected by the fact that minorities refuse to accept our way of life to the extent of introducing their own legal system!!!
If you can’t work it out or you’re too afraid to speak then we as a nation are well and truly stuffed. With the growing population of Muslims alone, we will be a minority in our own country (if we are allowed to call it that) and where do you think this will leave our legal system??? Check out the stats on the population chart, you will be shocked.
And if you haven’t already done so, apologise to your grandchildren for doing nothing about it.
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private eye,
The worst personal case of ‘give them an inch and they will take a mile’ is done by certain relatives of my wife's, same race.
The worst non-personal case I have heard and read and partially verified is in DSL out-sourcing. Briefly, DSL try to sweet talk its IT workers that there will be CO-sourcing with India IT supplier. One year after the deal, most of the British staff were made redundant and replaced by Indian nationals brought in from India.
Tow very good cases of given them an inch and they will take a mile.
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dad born in the eastend in the 1900s,i lived and worked in london from 15
grew up in the 60s, looking at all of this,over the years things have changed so much so that it would seem that it would seem that you have to,
BIODEGRADABLE LEAD FREE AND NONE VIOLENT to the enth degree, any deviation
from this and you will be prosecuted ,and of course fined and have to pay compensation,with the fear of prosecution for a race situation a work place
its better to sack the white person even if he is the victim for fear of
prosicution under the race law ,not to mention loosing your job as a manager ,as the company does not want to looked at in a bad light,
in my day expression,s like he [ calls a spade a spade ] were not said in malace ,it was a discriptive refering to a mans direct expression ,
i was married to a woman of mixed race who,s mother came from africa
it was accepted that she was black because she was ,and the island,
or part of africa she came from was not known,so we did not have a,
pinpoint reference to play with,a better person you could not meet,
people would say oh yea she,s the black woman up the road ,
well she was because she was the only black person in the road,
but nobody i knew ever said anything racist against her ,as a broken would affend ,but it seems that there are so many racial updates these days ,we are getting to the point where you have to go back to night school to learn new ways to express your self without breaking the law:
oobuc5
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According to the Wiktionary entry on nationality/ethnicity prefixes, Afro- used as a prefix denotes African origin. Such prefixes are not intended as offensive but merely denote an ethinic origin, and are handy when referring to something involving people of different ethnicities or nationalities. Anglo-Saxon refers equally to both Angles & Saxons. We refer to Sino-Japanese relations to describe diplomatic relations between China (Sino-) and Japan. Judeo-Christian refers to commonalities between the Jewish & Christian religions. Indo-European, to the culture originating in the area now known as Iraq, Iran & Pakistan, that predates the Persian empire & whose linguistic input is evident in both Sanskrit & many modern European languages - and we all use Euro- to refer to things European. People need to be sure what they're taking offence at before they go off on one, or it just shows their ignorance & intolerance.
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The simplest way out of the dilemna is simply to refer to "whites" (if I'm allowed to use that term)as "melanin challenged"
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there,s a little man somewhere in london working for the gov ,he works in a little office with a few staff ,his job is to justify his job by generating every he can about the racist angle in the way of being PC,
if you have problems with the crime figures, eg black crime/afrocaribean /
muslim/pakistani/indian/african/arab/morocan/,the best thing to do is to,
make it unxceptable to use any direct reference to the paticular race concerned by controling any words that might refer to race in relation to crime ,
this is a tool to conceal just how inept the gov has been with imigration
not to mention intergration within the the police force,and dozens of other diasters,
SO IF WE COULD ALL BE [PC,BIODEGRADEABLE ,LEAD FREE ,AND NONE VIOLENT,
I AM CERTAIN THAT WE ALL WILL BE WHERE THE GOV WANTS US TO BE ,
THE GREAT UNWASHED!
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