Thinking about children and crime
Standing next to a teenager who is holding a large kitchen knife, and knowing that she had previously stabbed her sister, is as good a place as any to consider Britain's relationship with children who commit crime.
I was in Finland, a country travelling down a very different philosophical road from Britain. While the UK locks up around three thousand juvenile offenders, Finland's criminal justice system incarcerates just three. And the girl with the kitchen knife is not one of them.
"We do not think the proper way to take care of a child is by punishing the child", says Kurt Kylloinen, director of the 'reform school' I was visiting outside Helsinki.
Set in thick woodland, the institution was once a girl's boarding school and its rules, even now, have changed little. The girl with the knife was cutting onions in a cookery class.
The youngsters cannot wander off but there are no keys, no bars, no guards. If they do disappear, they will be brought back again.
"You must believe in childhood and not let the child's misbehaviour deceive you", Kurt tells me. "You must believe in the child and that's what we try to do in Finland, whatever the child does."
The age of criminal responsibility in Finland is 15, although in practice very few youngsters under the age of 21 are dealt with by criminal justice system. Children who break the law are seen primarily as welfare cases.
Over 60% of children locked up by the state in the UK are known to have mental health problems. In Finland such youngsters are more likely to be patients in well-funded psychiatric units.
When I explained that in England and Wales children as young as 10 are dealt with under the penal code - and in Scotland as young as eight - the reform school's psychologist Merja Ikalainen looked aghast.
MI: I don't have words for that. It sounds so horrible.
ME: You think it's immoral?
MI: It is.
ME: Why? If a young person knowingly commits a crime?
MI: That's not a young person. That's a child. They need care.
ME: But shouldn't a child have to suffer the consequences of their actions?
MI: Suffer! You use words that sound really horrible. A child shouldn't be suffering. The word suffer sounds really sad.
Back in central Helsinki, I thought about Merja's remarks sitting in a prison cell. The simple design, the angry scratch marks of previous occupants on the walls, the high window and thick bars, all looked familiar enough. But walk out of the door and you find not a jail but a luxury hotel.
Such a contrast. While we are busy building prisons, the Finns are closing them. They used to lock up four times as many people as their Nordic neighbours but made a deliberate decision to turn away from their Russian past and adopt a liberal Scandinavian approach to criminal justice - particularly in relation to juveniles.
It is now a society that sees delinquency and youth crime as welfare issues. Even two shocking mass murders involving teenagers opening fire in Finnish schools have not hardened attitudes.
"I think people understand that the individuals who committed these crimes had some problems earlier that were not identified or noticed by family members or society", says Helsinki's deputy police commissioner, Jari Liukku. "I think (the incidents) are more underlining the fact that we have to find out the reasons for this."
When I went to Helsinki's main mall, I could not find a single shopper who thought the state was "too soft" on juvenile offenders. One man, unshaven and heavily tattooed, gave this response to the idea that badly behaved teenagers need punishment: "That would be useless", he said, shrugging.
The tabloid papers cover youth crime, but you will never see the culprits described as "thugs" or "yobs".
"It's a question of our culture and our ethics", explained Mika Molsa, crime reporter for Finland's biggest tabloid. "We don't think that those young people are evil. They have some problems in the homes when they are growing. So we have to solve those problems first."
It is a less adversarial society than Britain. Proportional representation has created a political culture based on consensus and compromise. Public discourse tends to be less polarised and reactionary.
Many people in the UK will find the Finnish model extraordinary. The feeling is mutual. Finland is a low crime society and, although police report a slight rise in youth offending, the Finns regard Britain's "obsession" with prison as barbaric and ineffective.
Back at the reform school, I pressed Kurt on the results of their approach:
KK: After they leave this institution the amount of crime these children do diminishes remarkably. Very few of these children that leave us at about 17-18 years commit any crimes any more.
ME: It costs 240 euros a day to keep a child here, which is equivalent to a luxury hotel. Is that really money well spent?
KK: It is, certainly. Every euro is very well spent at this time when we can influence the child's future behaviour, because the money spent later may be much, much more.
The "prison works" philosophy is not only being challenged by liberal Scandinavian countries. Even in parts of the United States, officials are beginning to wonder whether incarceration is effective. And there are debates in the UK as to whether our age of criminal responsibility should be raised to 14, especially given Britain's recent signing of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.
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We won't know if it would work in the UK unless we are willing to try it, wholeheartedly, without political strings hampering the effort.
I myself find the idea of any child having to "suffer" abhorrent anyway. There is far too much suffering in so many other ways in this world.
Often children involved in crimes or offences do have genuine emotional and other problems and society has always either excused them because of 'their problems' or locked them up, but never has society really tried to address the root cause and go beyond the label, criminal or whatever.
Punishment that fits the crime is all very well, but more is achieved through the child understanding the enormity or consequence of their actions than by just being punished and forgotten.
Yes, recompense is important to a point, especially when you see what the 'grown up' bankers have gotten away with and the consequential damage to society that has inflicted, now and for future generations.
My sibling was tasked in a UK school with supervising what were called 'special needs' children, that the other teachers couldn't cope with and the educational authority really didn't want to know about (yes I do mean this statement).
When my sibling realised what they needed most was to be allowed to be themselves, to be given attention and encouragement in whatever their interests were, their attitudes and behaviour changed dramatically. No formal teaching needed.
Instead of my sibling being seen as 'the teacher', was seen instead as 'someone to look up to', more of a real friend.
Someone trusted.
That bond of trust is so important in any child's (of any age) development.
An achievement recognised and applauded by the parents who saw the change in their charges.
Most of them came from severely problematic home lives, some not even having a family at home, some raped, some beaten.
To be labelled deficient or special needs used to make my sibling sad.
All they needed was good old fashioned time and attention, something that has become not only impossible but in many ways actively discouraged today in so many educational establishments.
Sadly my sibling is no longer with us and her charges miss her very much, so we will never know how this could have worked in practise.
It may be worth a try, to copy the Finnish model, if anyone or any authority brave enough can be persuaded to do so.
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"It is a less adversarial society than Britain. Proportional representation has created a political culture based on consensus and compromise. Public discourse tends to be less polarised and reactionary."
Say it all.
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As a retired Criminal Justice Defence Executive, I was intrgiued by your report. Have you any more information on the Child Management system?
If, as stated, it is true that when "children" are released from the Finish Scheme at 18 years, few return to crime. What a wonderful Social Services there are in Finland; if only the system in the U.K. was a shadow of it's counter-part.
If possible, please expand on this, if only to educate us as to alternatives.
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I think it is always interesting to hear what people do in other countries.
However the argument 'it works there so it would work here' is flawed.
There is absolutely no comparison between a tiny, blue eyed/blonde haired, impeccably ordered society like Finland and the situation in Britain.
Here's another way of looking at it.
You suggest we could import policies from Finland and it would work OK here.
As a counter argument I suggest we export SIXTY THOUSAND british kids in care, some of them with years of experience as offenders, to Finland and see if their system still works so well.
Obviously it wouldn't work - their system would collapse - it would be a ridiculous thing to even attempt.
That's what happens if you try to export systems to/from completely different situations.
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You need to examine the prison system to see if it works and is it actually a care free life of little social responsibility.
Everyone would argue that a good education and a strong role model is needed in all children's lives. Prison provides a mirror of this and so the child will be educated and taught his her moral and social standing in prison some very good role models in there is there not?
But then there are so many crimes in this country or actions perceived as crime that social institutionalisation is a valid method by which to control a problem that we refuse to address or are unwilling to address because of social perception driven by the media and government spin/statistics.
Mark I'm afraid your blogs while true and relevant are becoming very depressing can't you find anything positive about this beleaguered country and its lack of social responsibility.
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We live in a society where a vast gap exists between rich and poor, and where this greed and selfishness has to be justified by the rich. One of the ways we do that is by saying: 'I blame the parents', and then punishing them. But, despite this we still also blame and punish children, which demonstrates clearly that our society is hypocritical, and that it has no institutional commitment to fairness. When anyone has the common sense to try a new method that does not punish, this is met with huge hostility, especially from the right wing press, and we ought by now to know why that is. Of course this is the way forward, but it will only happen when we are not so greedy.
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Very thought provoking, Mark.
But one point I would question is your statement that proportional representation has lead to a political culture that seeks compromises and is not reactionary. Looking at the state of Israel I would question the connection you have drawn. It is however as you said the lack of an adversarial culture that is the root of the difference.
That adversarial culture is deeply embedded in our way of life - the law courts, parliamentary democracy, bating politicans and celebrities as a sport, the desire to find fault more readily than find praise. And look what damage it is doing to our children as it has lead to a culture where winning is considered more important than achieving the most sensible decision. Winner takes it all is the mantra of today. Utilitarianism has its weaknesses, but the greatest good for the greatest number of people is surely preferable to the way we are going.
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The Finnish way might be the best way to deal with them AFTER they have offended (I don't know) but I think we should concern ourselves more with the DETERRENCE effect of the possible approaches. I think it more important to reduce offences than to worry about offenders.
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I'm sorry but much of this is wooly liberal nonsense. Whatsmore it is extremely dangerous nonsense.
The way to raise a child successfully is to have them learn that there are consequences to their actions if they mishave. If you commit crime then you must be punished, this should be the case in any civilised society otherwise you will decend into anarchy. This has already been proved in Finland. Could it be that the perpetrator of the school masacre knew that he was very unlikely to be punished for his actions? I very much suspect so.
Also, I notice no attention whatsoever is paid in this article to the victims of these crimes. I wonder how they feel about these children effectively being rewarded rather than punished.
The views expressed in this article make my blood run cold. It reads as though the BBC fully endources it. So much for political neutrality. Can there really be any doubt left that the BBC is a liberal, anti-conservative organisaton?
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This article has convinced me that the Finnish system is absurd, if the UK adopted the same policy I fear that we could have a huge surge in crime.
I found the Finnish officials comments disturbing, am I to accept that the offender is also a victim when they offend?. Perhaps I have misunderstood the article but if this is the case than any attempt to implement the same approach in the UK would increase the crime rate, not lower it.
If as you mention that the Finnish population are happy with this approach, than good for them, I personally would find it hard to be a victim of crime knowing that the offender would normally be let off, or at worst would be placed in 5 star hotel accommodation.
Would the Finnish approach work in the UK, the very notion is absurd.
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the logic is old logic 'out of the frying pan and into the fire'
but why? what made them do it
thats the finnish way of treating it.
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People behave the way you expect them to. Knwoledge, thats been around for quite some while now, and is taught in school, as it is in management training. So while you get rid of kids prisons, you also have to change the way society treats these kids in the first place.
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You seem to lacking a bit of objectivity for once, Mark - obviously you've been impressed by the Finns but you've found little fault, and not discussed the logistical differences between Finland (and the other Scandinavian countries) and larger countries such as ours
Also you seem to accept proportional representation without question - yes it leads to more consensual politics but it also creates weak minority government and gives extremists more of a chance - and I say this as someone who hates our first past the post system and the silly, adversarial politics we have, I just don't believe the British could accept a PR system with their current mindset
It's all down to culture, and I agree we should definitely look at reforming child care but saying 'Finland is great, let's be Finland' simply doesn't wash
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Here's an idea, since our prisons are full and our young offender system is so bad, why not send all our young offenders to Finland until they're 18?
It surely can't fare any worse than the farce we have here at the moment. And it would save the Finns from closing down perfectly good prisons.
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The retribution policy achieves only one thing and that is satisfying the victims of crime.
I have never been a victim of crime but I feel that although society has programmed me to want some retribution I would also want to make sure that they will never commit the crime again. What is at issue how can we bring this about? Some say harsher sentences in cells with bare walls. It would work, if the punishments were really hard enough. However I doubt if many of the people who write on BBC blogs would be happy if it were their child who was locked away fo 5 years for the possession or minor vandalism that most children could be involved in. (Don't be smug, be honest) There is also the problem that if you know you will get a big punishment you might as well do a big crime and will certainly take more steps to silence witnesses.
The alternative involves some sort of training/rehabilitation/therapy. This leads to the crux of the problem. If you punish someone (make them suffer!), how successful would you be in getting over the message that it is wrong to steal, assault people or vandalise? Without such treatment people are more likely to reoffend. More people suffer.
So it comes down to balancing the 'me first' culture which wants retribution with the 'society first' culture which wants them not to reoffend. I know that while I would take great satisfaction at knowing that someone who had burgled my house was now in prision, that glow would have been markedly diminished if I found out that that person had reoffended.
I agree with all those who say that we should be dealing with the problem before the crime is commited. However I would argue that a society which decides to treat offeneders in a more thoughtful way, would begin to look at the origins of offending too. Given the state of our society, perhaps a starting point of dealing with actual offenders is more managable than dealing with potential offenders. Though lots of people are trying to do just that.
Too many people are looking for solutions and not enough thought is being given to starting points. After all that is what childhood is all about.
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"I don't think twice" said a teenager to me when I was a school teacher in Luton (early 90s sure). He claimed that him and his friends laughed at the soft punishments they perceived in UK justice. over 15 times he'd been up before a magistrate, and over 15 times he'd worn a nice shirt, smiled, and got off. Each time he told me he celebrated by doing another home-burglary that very evening he got off, and others did the same. I got on well with this lad (16), and he was being totally honest + I knew his background. Actually he was very personable. This changed my view.
His first offences had been the hardest for him, but he soon realised that he could get away with it, and this was a revelation to him, and opened the door to a career of crime.
We let him down by being 'soft' at the beginning (first time offence, let him off etc, giving him the wrong message). It sounds old-fasioned, but the first time a child is caught they need a shock, to associate the action and the consequence. Had this lad had this I think it would have set him up with a better life. He was not daft, in fact the opposite.
He freely admitted that if he knew a prison stretch was awaiting him, he'd turn away from crime to avoid it.
This lad taught me that I didn't know what I'd been talking about. All my logic and reasoning about rehabilitation etc were flawed.
I realised that you cannot measure the people that are detered by the thought of prison, simply because they never enter the crime figures. You CAN measure those you rehabilitate though. This gives us the false impression that prison doesn't work. As an academic, I believe all the evidence presented as to why prison doesn't work is flawed in this fundemental way (please correct me), and so gives a false impression.
Is it compulsory to sound like one's Dad as one gets older!!?
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For the advocates of the policy to punish young people the same ways as adults: Why is it that young people are only treated as adults to punish them? If you consider ten or fourtheen year old kids mentally old enough to consider the full responsability of their acts and go to a jail than you should also grant them voting rights, the right to property, to go to the bank and get out a loan, quit school as they like and so forth. 'they fully know what they are doing'...or not? Any good conservative will remember the classical natural rights literature: if the state can tax or punish you, than you yourself have rights to claim from the state. Why are kids only true "citizens" when we can punish them? I wonder if your answer would not be 'they would not know what they would be doing if they would take a loan from a bank...' but they do when the knock down a bus stop?
Scizofrenic beings those British kids...
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It's ironic how a system deemed "socialist" give so much more value to each individual, while those systems that are more "individualist" prefer to look at society on average (neglecting thus that minority of "misbehaving" individuals).
Although Finland is not properly socialist, it is more so than say, Britain, or Italy, or Spain. And it is no secret that socialist countries have lower crime rates. However, Britain is not alone in the lock-up-and-hope-for-the-best culture in Europe. Many other countries have a similar situation... while Finland is more of an exception. Does it have to do with the climate? Lower social inequality (that makes poor kids grown in dispossession envy the rich ones)? Small population? What are the crime rates in Slovenia, Iceland, Luxembourg, Belgium?
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Most "crime" involves (private) property of some kind changing hands "illegally".
If a society makes "property" its main value (USA and, in a minor yet important measure, UK) then we should expect trouble.
The amount of success in many societies is measured by how much stuff one owns.
The only way out is to show kids that there is more than property to life. Make things other than private property important... if you want kids to behave.
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*the Finns regard Britain's "obsession" with prison as barbaric and ineffective.*
So is Britains obsession with CCTV cameras (the largest network in the world per head of population) and with borders and frontiers (the UK is the only EU country that has refused to join the EUs border and passport union, thereby refusing to accept the basic principle of freedom movement of people, whatever their nationality, inside the EU, a principle with which no other EU or EEA country has a problem but Britain does. Doesn’t this tell you something about the British culture?).
To me, what I have described in the paragraph above, perfectly explains *Britains obsession with prison*. It is part of the same cultural well, one that continues to pull away from continental Europe and to get closer to the US, which in any case was part of Britain until a couple of centuries ago, and was founded by members of the British religious right.
That’s why what jon112uk at 4 above says is, sadly, correct. You cannot just import policies from other countries, but the reason why this wouldn’t work is not because there are SIXTY THOUSANDS British kids in care, but because without also importing the CULTURE, just importing policies would be useless. And of course, you cannot import a CULTURE. It is a bit like the NuLab gov a few years ago hoping that by liberalising drinking laws (i.e. treating people like adults) the UK would adopt a *more continental style* of drinking. Did that happen? Of course not. But was it therefore wrong to try to start treating people like adults? No, again. This is part of the same cultural problem. Because it hasn’t stopped binge drinking, hardcore Britain would say: It hasn’t worked; we need to continue treating adults like children.
The moral principles that inform the British attitude to prisons are a.o. *the end justifies all means* and *crime and punishment*. We can see these strongly held British cultural beliefs at play in the whole drive to build a database state in the name of the war-on-terror. If the end is right, the means (any means) *must* be as well.
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*The cruelty that is practised by day and night on children in English prisons is incredible, except to those that have witnessed it and are aware of the brutality of the system…. It is the prison Board, and the system that it carries out, that is the primary source of the cruelty that is exercised on a child in prison… It is supposed that because a thing is the rule it is right…. To shut up a child in a dimly lit cell, for twenty three hours out of the twenty-four, is an example of the cruelty of stupidity. If an individual, parent or guardian, did this to a child, he would be severely punished. … A heavy sentence would, undoubtedly, follow conviction. But our own actual society does worse itself, and to the child to be so treated by a strange abstract force, of whose claims it has no cognisance, is much worse than it would be to receive the same treatment from its father or mother, or some one it knew. The inhuman treatment of a child is always inhuman, by whomsoever it is inflicted. But inhuman treatment by society is to the child the more terrible because there is no appeal. A parent or guardian can be moved, and let out a child from the dark lonely room in which it is confined. But a warder cannot. Most warders are very fond of children. But the system prohibits them from rendering the child any assistance.*
Oscar Wilde - Extract from Letters to the Daily Chronicle, 1897
Has THAT much changed from Victorian times?
It doesn’t look like it has.
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I'm British but have lived in Helsinki for many years. There are quite a few positive things about the Finnish criminal justice system but of course it also has its problems and critics. Mark Easton's report is rather misleading. For example he writes: "While we are busy building prisons, the Finns are closing them" in connection to the hotel he stayed in - a former prison. I eat my lunch regularly at the restaurant of that hotel. The idea that this prison somehow wasn't needed and was hence closed is simply wrong. It was a Victorian era building that was too old and outdated for it purpose and was very valuable real estate. A new prison was opened in Jokela, just north of Helsinki, and the inmates moved there. Finnish prison populations have been going up.
Finnish prisons seem to be facing exactly the same problem as British prisons just on a smaller scale - drugs, over-crowding, being used as a way of dealing with the mentally ill, increasing number of foreign prisoners, violent gangs, under-staffing etc. This has been well covered by the Finnish media including the English language sections of Helsingin Sanomat, the leading daily, and YLE, the state broadcaster. Finland was recently criticised by the Council of Europe for its imprisonment policies that are seen as contravening some human rights: http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2009/01/finland_cautioned_about_prison_conditions_492308.html
On the imprisonment of young people - it is interesting what they do imprison people for. Recent case I'm aware of include graffiti and most famously perhaps - refusal to do military service or its civilian (and much longer) alternative.
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Finland is a wonderful example of a society that values its children above almost anything else. From cradle to 18+ Finnish males and females are nurtured, educated and respected by the civilised nation they are fortunate to have been born in. Finland is one of the most advanced, civilised nations in the world with a modern economy run along social-democrat lines in which people are generally treated with humanity and consideration. This is especially true of its dealings with its offspring.
Finland is also a wonderful example of exactly the opposite of the multi-cultural, multi-lingual, multi-heritage, multi-faith, 200 year-old urbanised sprawl etc. United Kingdom.
Finland does have its minorities, cultural diversity and political ambiguities, but, any major UK City Council experiences more of that type of issue in a month than Finland does in a year.
It is ludicrous to pretend that lessons cannot be learned from Finland about how to appreciate a future generation's importance: It is equally absurd to suppose Finland faces anything like the multi-faceted social-hierarchial-racial extremes impacting on the UK's children on a daily basis.
One-Third of all Finns live in the area of the Capital City; Finland's entire population would need to double to fill London; vast tracts of Finland's hinterland (equal almost to whole of England) are virtually empty of any residence except holiday-homes; Two-thirds of Finland is north of the Arctic Circle and experiences extreme weather conditions that make the present struggles of sub-zero climate G.B. almost a joke.
Yes, Finland has its fair share of drug addicts and more than its share of alcoholics, but, whilst Finnish youth may well experience such parentage, and also relatively easy access to guns, Heavy metal music, the Internet, Cinema, Literature, Pornography etc. it is in nowhere near the same intensity of cramped and diverse social-welfare conditions of the ordinary British child. Finland's children have room to breathe nature whereas British children barely have a room to themselves in which to breathe freely.
Yes, too many British children are in prisons and yes, the treatment of British children exhibiting mental-social disorders is a crisis no UK Government has ever properly confronted or used Public Expenditure to properly address. That said, no Finnish Government year-on-year across the entire nation, has ever faced the expedential growth of youth crime of any major British city. It can be argued that is because of enlightened Finnish attitudes to the care of their children, but, it is every bit as much to do with the basic fact Finland does not have anything like the condensed industrialised society of the UK or most other heavily populated modern economies.
Finnish children are born into a predominantly law-abiding society at the most basic as well as serious level. To illustrate how this affects the atmosphere in which the child is brought up I offer the following:
Park your car overnight unlocked in any provincial Finnish town centre and it will with 99% certainty be untouched in the morning (even in Helsinki it's about 75%).
Is there a Town/City in the UK where any resident would put the odds above 50%?
Three-quarters of Finnish Banks still do not have any security-screens infront of the Tellers; by contrast, I think it was around 1974-75 they were installed across the UK!
That is not to say crime is never a problem in Finland, but, the above does clearly demonstrate the levels of civilised behaviour to which Finnish children are exposed on a daily basis, and yet they do watch all the US and Brit crime series etc.
'Nature v nurture' is the usual argument, but, in this case I would suggest it is the very lack of 'nature and concerned nurture' that lies at the heart of the UK Child Crime statistics and the relative success story of Finland's younger generation.
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I'm pretty sure that our prison and rehabilitation system costs much the same per head as Finland's and it is demonstrably less effective. The Finnish reporter was correct in saying that it is a matter of culture. If you tried the same thing in, say, Jamaica, I am sure that the criminals would respond unfavourably, as they would in the UK.
That said, our system does not work. It does not reduce crime. It does not reduce young people's willingness to commit crime. And if we continue doing the same thing, we cannot be surprised when nothing changes. Criminals are tried by an antiquated and adversarial legal system (that pits them against the Queen!!), jailed by a legal system and kept in a prison system. This is nothing but a warehouse, shelving children (and adults) for a predetermined length of time, but doing nothing to address the reason why they might have committed a crime! At no point do we ever look on them as human beings and try to 'fix' them, educate them or even make them understand what they've done and why it is wrong. Once jailed, they enter a criminal system that effectively bars them from ever being part of normal society.
Even our 'normal society' is replete with the destructive hedonism and tottering with self indulgence. We have the druggiest, drunkest, most promiscuous youth in the whole of Europe, so the line between what's legal and what's not is so blurred it's unsurprising so many children cross over it, maybe without even meaning to. Throwing a vulnerable child from a warehouse prison back to the mess that is our society and expecting them to respond properly is almost impossible!
Years of adversarial politics, adversarial and antiquated legal system, target-led cultures, inept leaders, lack of joined-up thinking and eroding moral values have led us to this dark place. We need to change, and the incessant baying for longer and harsher sentences will only keep us there longer. Changes to the prison system on its own won't help, we need to start with a fresh page and some radical thinking.
I think that PR in our parliament would be a good first step. We need to think in terms of communities and not political parties. We need to reform our legal system and prison system for children and then for adults, basing it around firm guidance, education and remediation. We need to stop promoting hedonism and rewarding bad behaviour with publicity. This will take time and effort, but it is the only sane way forward.
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One of the main problems with prisons in general is the great criminal networking opportunities they provide.
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I find it hilarious the comments here by Brits that the Finnish model is too soft and we need more deterrents. Or the "what about the victims" talk. What country are you living in? Britain has some of the worst rates of violent crime amongst youth in the developed world. Finland has some of the lowest. A Finnish teacher I know took a placement in the UK and quit after 2 months. She couldn't believe that teachers in the UK shout at students, declaring they had no genuine authority or respect in the classroom, just what they got get through fear and coercion. One reader commented above that they didn't care about the people being punished just stopping crime. Actually, they are too blinded by their anger to see what they promote creates victims by not reforming those going to jail. Finland I have read, has the second lowest rate of reoffending in the developed world, Britain one of the worst. This is in spite of the fact the UK has some of the most barbaric sentences and conditions in the developed world and Finland the contrary. It seems so many people in Britain are saying "our situation is terrible, more of the same!". I left Britain for Finland years ago and the difference is dramatic. I quickly realized I had lived in an incredibly angry and aggressive society for years without even knowing it. It seems in the UK people are looking for any excuse to be aggressive/violent (including many of the self-righteous above) whereas in Finland people are looking for any reason not to be aggressive/violent. It says it all that in the UK parents are still allowed to be violent in softer forms ("smacking") towards their own children. In Finland, and indeed much of Europe now, most people would struggle to comprehend not only why this is allowed, by more why any parent would want to do that. I consider myself lucky to have gotten out. A lot of Brits I know who have lived in Finland for a while say they feel it wrong to put Finland and Britain in the same category as first world countries, that they are so fundamentally different they feel there needs to be some word to show different levels of political difference. I'm not sure I agree with that, but I totally understand what they are getting at. Britain feels, sort of, well, primitive. I see it just looking at the arguments here. I feel truly sorry for those who live their whole lives in the UK, never realizing the stressed and hateful circle they find themselves in. Those who do realize that something is not right, in true British form, blame someone else, usually young people. For all those calling for harsher and harder punishments, surely even they must acknowledge they have failed miserably in the UK.
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Does Finland have less youth crime because they treat offenders more gently?
Or can they treat offenders gently because they have less crime?
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@9 ghostblogger
"Could it be that the perpetrator of the school masacre knew that he was very unlikely to be punished for his actions?"
Both the Jokela and Kauhajoki gunmen killed themselves when the police arrived. Your unsupported political statement that these are crimes that could have been deterred by a simple threat of punishment is an insult to anyone who lost a son or daughter in them.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
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olyus1 wrote: "I left Britain for Finland years ago and the difference is dramatic. I quickly realized I had lived in an incredibly angry and aggressive society for years without even knowing it. It seems in the UK people are looking for any excuse to be aggressive/violent (including many of the self-righteous above) whereas in Finland people are looking for any reason not to be aggressive/violent."
Perceptions of crime and crime are two different things. I looked at recent homicide rates in Finland compared to England and Wales, and taking into account relative populations you are about twice as likely to get murdered in Finland. See: http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2008/01/murder-in-north.html The most up-to-date comparable stats I could find were 2005/6 for the English and Welsh figures - so they included all those murdered on 7/7. The Finnish figures were for 2006 so didn't included either of the two mass school killings. Finland clearly has a serious problem with violence by men against women and children.
One of my family members teaches in a Helsinki school, another is a school counselor. Another good friend is a Helsinki social worker. The idea that all Finnish kids have a perfect childhood is very far from the truth. I suspect it is probably no worse than most other European countries, and quite possibly better than many, but perfect it is not.
My Finnish boss was saying the other day that Finns have been very good at telling themselves how well they do things, and haven't been as good at standing back and seeing if it is still true or ever has been.
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A question...
olyus1 says "For all those calling for harsher and harder punishments, surely even they must acknowledge they have failed miserably in the UK"
LippyLippo says "our system does not work. It does not reduce crime. It does not reduce young people's willingness to commit crime"
I may wish to agree with you, and believe you make some good points. However in order to make such claims as these above, you need to know the number of youths who did NOT commit crime as a direct result of our system, because without this figure such claims have no foundation. If you can prove that this figure is very small then the statments are supportable. Showing how many DO commit crime cannot prove these claims, quite obviously. Neither, clearly, can rehabilitation figures, since those people are already the 'dependent variable'. And neither can any comparisons with other countries (size, culture etc). Indeed LippyLippo makes the very valid point that the two cultures are very different (Finnish and UK) and yet claims that the UK system is "demonstratably" less effective than the Finnish. How can it be 'demonstated' when as admitted, we're not comparing like with like?
I don't necessarily disagree, I just think we need to be careful about making strong claims that this works or that works based on conjecture. There is no research (that is not ever-so easily debunked) showing that prison doesn't work.. to my knowledge. But I'm open to it.
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One just has to accept the culture of other people, most of all when living amongst them. It becomes tricky when it comes to fundamental topics, like the attitude to children, that one is inclined to see as super-cultural or at least hopes that nearby cultures are not thinking too differently about.
The most paradox and emotionally challenging cultural shock I continue to suffer in the UK is around children and crime.
On one hand children tend to be shielded - allegedly for their own wellbeing and protection - from anything perceived as "adult". So they are being barred-off from pubs, are often hand-delivered to school in a tightly locked 4x4 and sometimes even excluded from family-celebrations, such as weddings.
But then, if they dare to brake the law, it all changes. What has been the untouchable, protected child in it's own toy-world and with it's own TV channels a minute ago, suddenly becomes a small adult and is being prosecuted and punished as such.
How that works, in terms of logic (leave alone human feelings), is beyond me and although I am not Scandinavian I must say the Finnish approach sounds a lot more logic to me and is lot more familiar in terms of my own cultural background.
Putting children on trial and into jail is against the fundamental human values that I believe in.
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It's a great approach. Spending money strategically on early prevention and therapy. The difference is that the Finnish care about their young people and the U.S. and British don't. For example, it's documented that the U.S. government deliberately sold heroin in the inner city and powerful crime syndicates are allowed free range. How does a teen resist this type of gang corporation? It's very sad to live in a country where you're being targeted all the time to buy this or that so that some powerful, wealthy person can become even more powerful and wealthy. What's been done to both societies is deplorable. It's time for a huge re-think.
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We are not European we are are more like the Americans when it comes to dealing with children we do not like them to narcissistic can not put anyone before us because as children were lived in a small aggressive covertly island Britian has had its day and now looks to another narcissistic country the USA another country that puts its children in prison and even executes them especially if black.
The aggression and racism is denied and this innocent face is put to the world, there is less violence in this country than ever before. The children the media picks on are of the lower classes yet who has brought this country to its knees? what class did they come from how well educated is Brown and Blair and Carol Thatcher and many in the media? Before we deal with the young we need to deal with those who run the country as much of their idea smack of childish fantasies. Brits will never be that enlightened as the Fins
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What's happened to the standard of argument here? So much non-evidential and emotive out-pouring that adds nothing to this important issue, from whichever side it comes. On balance there is more of this low-value material from the easier 'feel-good' side of the fence (i.e. the non-prison, appeasement side), but it's not exclusive.
And I do apologise for sound patronising, I'm really not intending to. There are people saying some interesting stuff here, but there is also so much noise that devalues the whole topic of discussion, and so much conjecture that hasn't been thought through, that it must put people off even bothering.
I find the topic of considerable interest appeciate Marks posting, and am open to the arguments and evidence; I'd love to swayed on way or the other by really good argument, but just end up exasperated trying to read it. So I'm logging off.
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The Finnish are not famous for their humour, especially: the only joke I know from there goes:
"how do you kill someone in Helsinki in January?"
- "Steal their coat. They will be dead in 15 minutes"
In contemplating Finland and their well-behaved teens, it's as well to remember that loitering on street-corners is going to result in frostbite for something like 6 months of the year, so opportunities for laissez-faire disrespect and low-income lifestyles are a lot more limited than they are in the UK. there would be no Finnish equivalent of Irvine Welsh's "Trainspotting" - delinquents can't afford to heat their house, which means they are at risk of dying, very rapidly.
I suspect that's quite a strong force for social cohesion, as the lefty hand-wringing policy wonks would put it.
Here, we have strived very hard to make each individual entirely dependant on a faceless state, and independent of one another. I doubt anyone in the Congo or Rwanda would see limitless state aid as an easy path to social cohesion, either!
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We have entered into a state of lawlessness,the youngsters on the streets and in the schools who behave so badly with knives and threats should be dealt with an iron fist,whoever is to blame can be tackled later this is the issue that is far more imprtant and i would re introduce national conscription whereby discipline is instilled
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Maybe, just maybe if there was less colourings, flavourings and other additives in our food there would be less youth crime. I had two children who were hyper-active purely due to the colourings, flavourings, preservatives and God knows what other additives which are in our food.
It would also help considerably if children were taught morals, manners and had the difference of right and wrong instilled into them from a very young age. Trying to talk a child out of sticking a fork into a live socket is totally useless, so is letting them get on with it. But the do-gooders say that you can't chastise a child as it causes psychological problems. It does - to the parent/s when the children grow up and do and say what they like when they like. That's when this government decides that the parents are to blame and should be punished for their children's actions.
Nobody should have children in this country because it will just lead to a criminal record for the parents. This government is anti-children in all its forms.
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So it works in Finland.
Maybe Finland does not have the same child is always right policys that have come in here.
Maybe most if not all Finnish children realise that with rights there are responsabilities. shame that sucessive Labour governments have removed the responsabilities from children and given them more rights than adults.
This system will never work here while the tribal culture is ruining the young, especially the Black young, with a knife and gun culture.
Perhapse if the government took notice of what the people wand, like less interference from Brussels or even total withdrawal, then may be the children might feel that being part of the UK was valid and that they might be listened to.
Until the government, Labour party at present, listens to people than I would say that the youth are lost and we will see more of the same.
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