The problem that's hanging around
How much do you worry about the problem of middle-aged women hanging around shopping centres?
Or groups of pensioners huddling together near the post office? Fifty-something businessmen massing by the wine bar?
Now let me ask you a different question. In your neighbourhood, how much of a problem are teenagers hanging around on the streets? That is what the Home Office asked 47,000 adults living in private households in England and Wales for a report on perceptions of anti-social behaviour [pdf].
And the answer is that "around one in three (31%) perceived teenagers hanging around to be a problem".
One of the defining features of teenagers is that they "hang around". That is what they do. I did it. I suspect you did too.
The other questions in the Home Office survey relate to conduct which might reasonably be described as anti-social: vandalism, graffiti, damage to property, drug dealing, drunkenness, noisy neighbours or loud parties. If teenagers are hanging around and doing these activities, then government ministers might consider actions to encourage better behaviour.
But community anxieties about young people simply standing around tell us more about the anxious community than they do about the teenagers.
You may remember the recent poll commissioned by Barnardo's which found that more than a third of people agree that "it feels like the streets are infested with children". "Infested"?
Almost half of adults (49%) said that they regarded children as increasingly dangerous, both to each other and to their elders. Almost as many (43%) felt that "something has to be done" to protect society from children and young people.
In that context, the group of teenagers is regarded in the same way as, say, a pack of wolves or a plague of rats circling the shopping arcade.
I find it telling that official research assumes our young people are a "problem", even when all they are doing is hanging around being young people.
Perhaps the Home Office might like to do a youth survey asking how worried people are about the anti-social problem of adults treating teenagers like vermin.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~36~RS~)
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Your argument here is unsound. The poll you refer to is about the adult population's perception of teenagers and is not actually concerned with the actual actions of teenagers.
In addition to which you also make the statement that teenagers are just being teenagers - the evidence and statistics to back up this statement seems to be missing.
Whilst I agree that the perception of antisocial behaviour among teenagers is probably greater than the actual incidences of such behaviour, the kind of reporting presented in this article is irresponsibly trivialising a very genuine, and real, concern within UK communities today and is, unfortunately, presented as factual when it is, in fact, nothing more than unsubstantiated opinion.
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If you treat someone in a certain way then they may as well act that way. If you act with respect towards others then you may get that respect back. Behaviour is learnt, so who is teaching these kids how to be? Could it be the people that treat them with fear and anger?
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So what about the statistic on knife crime? Are these to be ignored and just swept under the carpet and treated as normal teenage behaviour?
Unless you have lived on a council estate and witnessed the behaviour of feral kids then I don’t think anybody has any right to comment on their so called perception of the (to their eyes) non-existent problem.
There is absolutely no doubt that gangs on the street are becoming a huge problem, mainly because a percentage of disadvantaged kids haven’t proper home lives and look for other means to recreate some sort of security.
It is ridiculous that middle class, well off media types and politicians who live in detached leafy suburbs see fit to comment and advise on this problem.
Let them live amongst the dysfunctional and disaffected for a year and see if they still have the same opinion.
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I am 48yrs old and consider myself fit for my age
However, we recently had THIRTY teenagers throwing stones, dog ecrement, eggs at our front window
This happened night after night for 5 months, despite the police being called after every incident
Am i sacred ?
Bloody right I am !
The police do very little to protect us
They sit on theire bums in a cosy office, when they should be policeing our streets
I am really ashamed to call myself Britsh
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If they just 'hang around' it wouldn't be a problem. The following IS a problem:
* They hang around
* They kick a football
* They kick a football against the side of your car
* You ask them not to do that
* They laugh and tell you to **** off
* You stand up to them and tell them to stop - after all you are a grown man and they are just kids
* They gather around you menacingly and threaten you with violence
* You push one of them who is in your face away, with the flat of your hand
* Someone calls the police
* The youths accuse you of assault
* The police arrest you and the youths are left on the street laughing at you
* You are arrested, fingerprinted, photographed, DNA, PNC record
* No charges, because what you did wasn't a crime, but the police won't delete any of the above records
* You still live on that street - and so do they
* You move house
Story of a neighbour of mine - I wouldn't be dumb enough to confront them in the first place. If you dont believe me, you could ask Jeremy Clarkson about it- he's 6ft + and was terrified when it happened to him, not by the youths but the fear that it would be him that was arrested
When did that last happen with the gang of grannies?
The big problem is the inversion of power relationships - the kids have more power than the adults. They are in control of your neighbourhood, not you. That is why people are scared.
This is C21 England - not the world you knew as a kid. If it happened to you, you would understand the reality of it, but my guess is you have not experienced it yet.
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Well its obvious from this article that there are not ,or ever have been, any spitting, swearing, learing teenagers sitting outside his house for nights on end!
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there are 2 types of anti social behaviour in question here.
The one that seems to blight us on a daily basis youth and what they do when they are socialy active.
The other the one that finds us sat infront of our tv's being unsocial. But having the option to go where you want and when you want to be social.
we talk about resonsable behaviour and how kids must behave in a set way. when in truth they behave just like us leaving the criminal elements asside.
The thing that sets them asside is very few places of social meeting that dont cost on a daily basis.
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To agree with jon112uk fully.
For years and years we have had all the social do-gooders telling us that we cannot discipline or smack our children because that is assault and you can only "talk to them" and guess what the children are aware of this and the fact that they can get any adult arrested instantly just by saying the magic words "they hit me"
Had this threatened to me a few times by young kids whilst working for a security firm trying to remove them from school grounds after it's closed in the evening.
They are aware that there is no responsibility or consequences to their actions beyond someone saying "oh that was naughty, please don't do it again, now run along and play"
I'm old enough to remember when causing trouble as a child would result in the police arriving and dragging you off to your parents (where you would catch hell and rightly so) after a stern telling off by the police. Or taken to the police station and waiting to be collected by your parents.
A clip round the ear by the police did far more good than any amount of "just talk to them" or the common ASBO which is almost a medal to todays youth.
Well the social do-gooders have had their way for all these years and now we are left with the result, which seems to be a total disregard and disrespect of anyone older than a teenager and a portion of society growing up knowing that no-one can discipline them.
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Kids 'hanging around' have been a 'problem' for decades but there used to be a complex set of social norms to which all adhered. Social disconnects now happen early. Simple things like knowing which school year a child is in. "Year 5" might be new-speak to some but at least it is easily translated with the aid of minimal research. Where do 'bluebells' or 'tigers' fit? Adults need clues in order to be able to start a relevant conversation without the children, rightly, writing them off as clueless. Then, later, the 11-15 age-group appears much less involved in volunteering/charity work partly because so little is done in uniform. It is easier to see a young person as 'an individual of worth' but paradoxically harder to see 'young people' doing things of worth in the community. Returning to uniforms is probably silly but publicised group initiatives that go door to door would be useful. (Updated bob-a-job rather than Solve-CountryX)
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The problem with this article, which really annoyed me, was the way in which it totally undermined and rubbished the concerns about a vast number of people.
The opening gambit comparing ‘groups’ of middle aged women hanging around shopping centres and ‘groups’ of pensioners is a very foolish comparison!. Since when did these ‘groups’ pack together, act in a threatening way and cause anxiety amongst others, it is like comparing apples with oranges.
This kind of article is one of the reasons why these problems persist and no new ground is broken with regard to addressing peoples concerns. Everybody knows that not all kids are not unruly and anti-social, but that is not what the debate is about, it’s the same as people expressing there reservations about mass immigration and suddenly they’re a racist. In my opinion the attitude expressed in this article is as damaging as the kids spitting at the old man in the street and the vandals spraying graffiti over the newly furbished recreation ground, why not turn a blind eye, after all as this article rightly says we all used to “hang around” didn’t we!..
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In the latest edition of the past pupils magazine of my state school in Highbury, North London, the headteacher expressed concern about "the behaviour of boys who went round in groups...".
The date of this comment? 1952! He was making his annual report to parents.
The same social issues that existed then are with us now - lack of organised activities run by adults who are respected, lack of tolerance of adults towards simple boisterousness, lack of facilities that cater towards absorbing boisterousness, lack of visibility of the police as a deterrent, and more.
I know as I was one of the boys who went around in groups!
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Mark, if you'd ever experienced even a small group of teenagers persistently hanging around your home I guarantee you wouldn't have written such a supportive article.
'Hanging around' outside to the average group of teenagers does not usually mean holding a friendly, civilised conversation with one another at a moderate volume, so your pensioner/shopping centre analogy is utterly flawed. A teenage gathering may start this way, but very soon talking turns to shouting and swearing, each teen trying to outdo their peers in volume, bravado (they are teens, this is what they do...) and acts of daring - i.e. vandalism to you and I. Then a football may appear, to be bounced or kicked against any handy nearby object, such as a car or house wall. The volume and sense of intrustion increases. Then alcohol might put in an appearance as said bravado prompts one of their number to visit the nearby 'offy'; the general rowdiness escalates...
Meanwhile, the unfortunate residents living nearby are trying to tell themselves 'they're only teenagers' while they try and concentrate on the TV, or a meal, or a conversation, and failing utterly to do so. A knot is growing inside their stomach as they wonder whether or not to intervene for the sake of protecting their own peace and quiet or simply being a good citizen...
Eventually the teenagers decide to move on and it goes quiet - but for how long? It is impossible to relax.
This is the reality, Mr Easton. I know, I've been there and life has never been quite the same again. So please take care what you say in support of teenagers and spare a thought for all those law-abiding citizens who suffer in silence.
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Mark,
Once again you have written an article which confirms your Guardianesque views based on a pampered BBC lifestyle. Fair enough but when will the BBC commit to a balanced set of bloggers and include a Littlejohn/Rod Liddle/Jeff Randall type prepared to move away from the left of centre agenda?
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On the subject of Woolworths I can remember as a kid in the Fifties being pursued by an angry supervisor every time we went into the shop. Her perception was that all kids were shoplifters. She got me into the habit of never going into Woolworths. The rest is history.
There are young people and young people. Most around our way are reasonably decent and respectful.
However there are a couple who have vandalised property and when confronted became very obnoxious. Their parents have been put on a warning by a number of neighbours. One of the fathers did not like it and tried to give me a beating. Let us put it this way: I chose not to bother the authorities but he is now frightened of me.
The reality is that there are bad parents who inflict their bad attitudes onto their children. The bad apples need to be dealt with. The police need to be seen more and seen to be effective otherwise people will eventually take the law into their own hands.
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There is a problem with the youth of today the problem is that people like dualBlacksmith, peace_artist, Jaknet , walkstreetsafe, jon112uk, newSweetMonkey2 and tacrepus have allowed a this situation to develop.
For probably 20-30 years most of them will have been adults that have gone along with the liberal approach to disapline for kid's and only now when its affecting them they cry out about it.
These Teenagers are a product of the society or lack of it that you have allowed to come in to being. For 30 years you have sat back an let society fall apart and now you moan.
Everyone shares equal blame, Not just the Kid's not just the Government, not just the police and not just you. But you too are part of the problem.
Being in my early 20's i do not remember a time when there was a strong community bond in this country. But I know there was and that your Generation is to blame for allowing it to fall apart.
I only hope that My Generation can rebuild that society that you have allowed to decay.
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The issue is not whether the anti-social behaviour exists; it evidently does from the many experiences related here and elsewhere. From where I see it, what Mr Easton is expressing is that a) the survey conducted included a leading question which should not be expected from a properly conducted questionnaire and b) there is a problem with blanket terminology and assumptions regarding young people. Many people talk as though all ‘young people’ are automatically anti-social yobs. There are huge numbers of young people out there who don’t make the news because they are too busy doing normal, socially acceptable things, like working hard for their exams, etc. But that doesn’t sell newspapers, does it?
There is undoubtedly an issue as I said above but to tar every young person with the same brush with the language used is only going to compound the problem; as if every adult starts to believe that every young person is a danger to society, then the social division between young and old is only going to escalate.
Using words like ‘infested’ is a very good example of the issue; if we are comparing children to vermin (which are all the same and need to be eradicated), then what does it say about how much we care about young people and children in society, who are the future, our next generation?
This can only be solved with integration and communication (and yes, law enforcement and discipline too) - kids are only as good as the people who teach them.
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There are inherent inbalances here - contextual and perception.
Most pensioners do not belong to gangs, or carry weapons, or intimidate pro-actively or direspect authority, or abuse key services like police, fire, ambulence, or paint graffiti. Most.
Most city workers, or employed people, do not do the same. Many companies now vet employees for past records, meaning no employment if there is one. (Creates an underclass)
I will not say that *most* teenangers do either, but you miss the point, either based on reality, laws of average or media-driven perception:
A greater proportion of young people in their "group" that occupy streets, shopping centers, parks, estates, transport are perceived to
- carry weapons
- stay out too late too young beyond a parental control tolerance
- truance (aka dont turn up for "work")
- dont value the spectrum of societal richness, "things to do or be passionate about"
- do not understand respect, and abuse the priveledge bestowed in a respectful relationship (earned, not assumed)
- intimidate directly when approached
- speak foul language
- litter, spit, shove
Certainly those one sees. There is no perception of future, consequence (largely none) or accountability. Let alone self-respect.
I think the point, in democracy, is around assumption based on unchallenged precedence. And the reaction is one based on powerlessness to understand, change or protect against a miscreant minority. If the teenage generation that do not conform to what we are led to believe is an unacceptable norm are not able to influence change and impose the values of the majority, then the norm will shift to the lowest common denominator. And in that, the media do not focus on the majority. We pick at victims, losers, violators and exceptions.
Generation on generation, I think this is the problem. This is where the ersion of the "norm" degrades.
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Unusually strong stuff from Mark, but as he's frequently pointed out, crime (including knife) has been falling in recent decades, and is only more prominent than before because the media choose to make it so
just because there's plenty of stories out there about 'feral' teenagers doesn't make it the norm - people are just making it worse by thinking the majority of young people are about to stab them
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"One of the defining features of teenagers is that they "hang around". That is what they do. I did it. I suspect you did too."
-Nope. I never did as a teenager back in the 90s, I always found it tedious, and British weather rarely made 'hanging around' pleasant anyway.
I shake my head in disbelief when I see teens hangin' in sub-zero temperatures with rain pouring down onto their hoodies.
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Mark, can I have your job please? I'd like to be so far removed from reality that my address reads 'FarFarAway'.
I had a battery thrown at my head this summer for merely walking past a group of kids that I didn't so much as make eye contact with. I challenged them calmly, they proceeded to laugh, mutter "£$%^ off and then threw something else at me which missed luckily.
The police are utterly disinterested, non existent in fact.
Yes, I was a teenager once, yes, I hung around in groups. But there was always a line which was never crossed, if we were challenged by an adult the worst we did was go scarlet, giggle a bit and then move on.
So anyway, how does one get a job like yours? I think we all want one.
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Well apparently the charity asking the questions has its wages paid for by the government so its bound to ask biased questions and then to be reported by the biased bbc.Just a little more control each time,it won't be noticed.
We need balanced debate not propaganda.
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here is a classic case of what is happening to young people yes there are new areas being built, but at the cost of established communitys.
http://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/3876142.LIBRARIES_AXED/
one wonders why young people are so negative towards the adult populas. The baths in question during the summer give 100's of children free swiming in the 3rd most deprived are in the wirral.
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In agreement with many respondants - it seems that those who have never experienced the on-going harrassment that some teenagers seem to delight in perpetrating view the criticism of them and fears of those subjected to these acts almost with disregard. However having seen my son, an adult with special needs, surrounded by ten or more 10-14 year olds taunting and terrifying him to the extent he is afraid to go out. Having experienced these sort of incidents over more than 6 months, then I am afraid all teenagers are regarded suspiciously by both my son and myself. Particularly if loitering on corners in groups.
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Mark this is nonsense, and I think you know it. The fact is that many young people know that there simply aren't the punishments for breaking social codes in school, and breaking criminal codes outside, so that a significant minority know that they can behave as badly as they like with impunity.
And when they do commit a serious offence, the punishment doesn't fit the crime. I'm not going to list a litany of crimes but one will illustrate the point.
There IS a problem here - the elderly don't feel that the police are on their side, they do feel frightened, and many young people simply are not being disciplined and are NOT having boundaries set for them.
So it is really our fault for allowing them to have the idea that there aren't acceptable standards of behaviour, and there are no effective punishments when destructive or criminal acts are carried out.
Barnardo's are whingeing about kids being referred to as 'feral' and 'animals'. As you can see in the example above, it is not us who refer to their behaviour as 'animal', it is the judiciary, and I also doubt whether Barnardo's actually understand what the dictionary definition of 'feral' actually is.
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oh and the wealthy area gets...
http://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/3926705.Oval_now_open___seven_months_late/
how many lanes sir ........
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Mark this is nonsense, and I think you know it. The fact is that many young people know that there simply aren't the punishments for breaking social codes in school, and breaking criminal codes outside, so that a significant minority know that they can behave as badly as they like with impunity.
And when they do commit a serious offence, the punishment doesn't fit the crime. I'm not going to list a litany of crimes but a couple will illustrate the point.
There IS a problem here - the elderly don't feel that the police are on their side, they do feel frightened, and many young people simply are not being disciplined and are NOT having boundaries set for them.
So it is really our fault for allowing them to have the idea that there aren't acceptable standards of behaviour, and there are no effective punishments when destructive or criminal acts are carried out.
Barnardo's are whingeing about kids being referred to as 'feral' and 'animals'. As you can see in the example above, it is not us who refer to their behaviour as 'animal', it is the judiciary, and I also doubt whether Barnardo's actually understand what the dictionary definition of 'feral' actually is.
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Sorry, this is the example..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7742858.stm
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Mark - did you write this piece to deliberately provoke the rational, or do you really believe this nonsense?
It's as if you refuse to confront the fact that the reason why so many of us are weary of teenagers "hanging around" is because we've witnessed so many examples of such teenagers behaving badly.
We're not just talking about scrumping apples here. We're talking about threats, intimidation, violence, vandalism and robbery. If observing such behavior on a regular basis causes people to feel nervous around teenagers then can you blame them? We're programmed to recognize patterns of behavior for our own survival. If avoiding groups of teenagers on the street decreases my chances of being spat at, harassed or attacked then I'm going to do it regardless of whether or not it involves "tarring all kids with the same brush."
Since the late 60's the left has done everything it can to undermine decent values in society. They've brought us to a ludicrous cultural atmosphere in which it's almost considered "immoral" to be "moral." Not content with the results of 40 years of "progressive" liberalism on the attitudes and mentality of kids, they're now denouncing anyone who feels threatened by the wolf packs of lawless youths which their philosophy created.
I feel like I'm waiting for a punchline which I know will never come.
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Sorry, I don't want to go all 'Daily Mail' on this, but please read this story, and then ask why pensioners and other much younger are very worried about the behaviour of teenagers.
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2008/11/22/teenager-jailed-for-attack-on-80-year-old-woman-55578-22314791/
What I would like to know is, how seen will this awful person be out on the streets again ? Two and a half years is a scandalously light sentence for such a heinous crime, but what is terrifying is that he may feasibly be let out in even less time than that.
How on earth do you expect people to be so welcoming to teenagers with 'nothing to do' when this can be the result, albeit in a few rare occasions ? Don't pensioners have rights as well ? Such as feeling safe in their own homes ?
N.B. It was the defence lawyer who described this man as 'almost an animal' - so tell that to the people at Barnardo's.
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I agree entirely with lordBeddgelert.
I would downplay punishments - there are many, but they are subtle today. Past misdemeanors mean one cannot gain many employments. It's about educating around that. What you do limits youself or promotes yourself in future - and it doesn't need one to know what the future is. Most teens don't; I didn't. But I knew that certain behaviours would kill any chance of "somthing better".
We are not a society that easily grants a second chance. When you're under fire, we right you off.
I would emphasise the chasm that is being created - so much as we fear "youth", we will not engage, nor them.
The media do not promote achievement. We excel in knocking people off side, emphasising failure; we do not promote success; we curtail aspiration. This is British and ugly.
Biggest of all, entire agreement, is that there needs to be recognition of codes of accetaptable behavior. I alluded to subtle rules above (ie there are consequences). Beyond the law, we are all owners of this. I don't have an answer to why we are failing, beyond self-respect, except there is no ruleset and no "go to market" strategy.
My take: a combination of parental loss of purpose (proxied to the state); lack of consequences education; no second chances; fixation with failure (so we build rebels out of naturally/biologically teenage rebels); and most of all, an inability for us or the media to build self-respect and aspiration. I think this is all so British. We live in a "some else's fault" culture. We seem to fixate with failure or potential failure.
Above all, I would bring back something approximating to corporal punishment. Sorry, because I did also see abuses at (state) school. It only happended to those that stepped way beyond the "code of behaviour" that we all bought into, and they are probably in prison now.
I was a teen in the late 70's/early 80s.
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The dreadful Baby P case and the sentiments it creates resonates pecularly with the emotions of adults describing older children ("pack of rats" etc).
Adults involved in both situations seem to blame, the first of Baby P in an absolute sense - while neglect, benign or otherwise by adults for the older children must be a major factor.
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Not worried enough to see them forced into volunteer schemes... in England only of course.
As suggested by David Blunket
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7751832.stm
Also worth reading:
http://toque.co.uk/blog/?p=1623
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History tells us that all older generations have disapproved of the generation that follows them, so no change there.
What seems to be less common is this generation seems to inadequate in their own position in society and has mutated this natural mistrust and disaproval into fear.
The new generation subconsciously looks to the old for guidance and finds none as the older generation has locked itself away as society fractures and fragments.
We are left with two disfunctional generations. one locked up in its own prison of fear and insecurity, the other without purpose and without the structure and certainty it craves. No wonder they turn to alternative power structures such as gangs and other subcultures with strong rulesets and sense of belonging.
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Dear Sotonblogger,
How would you turn history into learning, and then into ideas about "what do we do next"?
You tantalize on
- strong rulesets
- a sense of belonging
I challenge you, if I may. It seems many of us non-teens remember what it was like, experience something altogether different today.
I "oggy-raided" (stole apples from a tree) and got into trouble. I was forced to apologise by my parents (whom I respected), and now use that lesson today pro-actively (however, I do not steal apples at work, but I know right from wrong and a sense of invasion in other people's spaces and rights). I also broke a neighbours plantpot, and apoligized of my own volition and gave my pocket money to buy a new one.
I also developed my own interest, that aborbs me still today. I did not have time for "hanging around".
What did I do and feel that doesn't seem to apply today? What did I get from my community that does't exist today? Or am I just wierd ;-)
You imply yourself that something is different. Understand the difference and we can influence. Surely? Or is it truly "no change"?
Regards.
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I just wish to say that I'am one of these teenagers that hangs around. However im not of the hoody / tracksuit / chav whatever you want to call them
What adults in my mind fail to see is the diffrence in groups and Im also the target of a large amount of misjudgement becuase of the way i dress and my age so i MUST be doing drugs i MUST be drinking i MUST be out with a knife all these things are 'projected' onto young people
Can i add that most of us teenagers are afraid of getting stabbed we are afraid of the 'gangs' but its the people in those 'gangs' and to name and shame its the chavs/neds trackies/hoodies those people who go out and ruin it for everyone else of my generation
As for some form of remedy punishment wont work on those people having been assualted by them harrased etc.. they wear the punishments like a trophy the only one that seemed to have any effect was a tag
Do not get me wrong however im not just another 'misunderstood' teenager i have many adult friends in the area and in the youth projects I'am in
All though i do agree it is a very real problem
as i and everyone else i know has been the victim of it. It is not just adults who suffer from the anti-social behaviour those of us who do cause no harm other than standing about with our friends we get troubled as well and also by adults who beleive us to be up to no good
sorry im not too good with punctuation just to add hence the total lack of it
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Sorry this is going to be long, but Mark, you've clearly had NO experience of the kids who 'hang around'.
I LOVE children and think most kids are quite nice. I know this because I work with them 4 evenings a week. But the 'nice kids' are not seen because they get on with it and harass no-one. And from what I see they are nice because of their upbringing.
But the vast majority of my experiences with teenagers outside this work has been far from positive, because THESE have been with kids who 'hang around'.
We lived for 3yrs in a highly convenient area. A week after we moved in, some kids (seen by a neighbour) set fire to the packing rubbish that I'd put out for the council to collect. This rubbish was INSIDE our gates, on private property. The fire burned the lawn and fencing to char. Luckily we had a side door for exiting the house while waiting for the fire service.
That was the start of 3 years of hell. I could cope with the doorbells rung and kids running off - that is age-old and I expect it from youngsters. It was funny when I was a child too and I was no delinquent by any definition.
It was the other stuff. They threw bottles filled with gravel through an open upstairs window, which barely missed my husband's head. Our garden was the designated rubbish dump for beer bottles and spit (not to mention most of the kids were under 16). Late nights, they'd gather outside my front door and swear and scream, and any polite request that they keep the noise down was met with abuse.
I spent a fortune on car repairs - I don't mind footballs but do mind smashed windscreens (I saw the kids running off laughing), broken mirrors, slashed tyres, and keys gouging massive gashes in paintwork. Thankfully I can't afford an expensive car (!), but it is still an unwarranted expense.
The police did NOTHING. With my husband out long hours with work, I grew very frightened. After 3 years my husband had the option of continuing to be based out of the same area for another year with good career prospects, or 5 years rotating between several places in an unknown area that would do little for his career. He chose the move.
We now live in a cul-de-sac where we, in our late 20s, are the youngest people on the street and the peace and quiet is a real shock to the system.
Oh and one day a kid stole a bike and rode it through our garden to make off with it. My husband, just home, caught him, grabbed him by the scruff, returned the bike and took him to his mortified mum who gave him an earful. The kid was always polite around us thereafter. My neighbour tried the same thing with another kid, whose father scoffed in her face and said "my son wouldn't do anything of the sort, now get off my property." The kid came back and chucked a brick at my neighbour's 3-year-old.
From a policy point of view, modern attitudes to discipline leave a lot to be desired and the do-gooders who have handed unlimited power to these kids have no clue. If policymakers are going to insist on nannying and telling people how to be parents, then how about REQUIRING parents to discipline their kids and teach them some respect? Until that happens, the unseen and lovely majority of kids will continue to be unfairly viewed with cynicism. What a way for THEM to grow up!
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Just a quick reply to WhiteEnglishProud who says that myself and dualBlacksmith, peace_artist, walkstreetsafe, jon112uk, newSweetMonkey2 and tacrepus have allowed a this situation to develop.
Quote
(For probably 20-30 years most of them will have been adults that have gone along with the liberal approach to disapline for kid's and only now when its affecting them they cry out about it.)
Well I cannot speak for the others, but I have constantly complained about and not gone along with, the do-gooders/ liberal attitudes towards discipline. This is not something I'm just commenting about now. Unfortunately the liberal views won the support of successive governments and we are now stuffed because of it.
As you say you are in your early 20's. You will find over the years that just because you can see the problem. It does not follow that the correct choice/view will be made by the ones in power. As we are seeing here.
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One thing that has come to mind on this with a population that now has more old people than young, the youth of today will be the generations that will demand the same respect that we do when they are bed bathing us in our OAP homes. By this time they will have evolved into well balanced members of their sociaty, my question is how will they see us then? will the reflection of hate we seem to show them now prove very ugly in our twilight years.
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Dear Druchi,
That is a very honest and brave statement to make. It breaks down barriers.
If you had power, let's say you did, what would you actually do:
a) for you and your friends
b) for the elders that also assume things about you that are not fair?
Do you feel a sense of responsibility to your family, neighbourhood? Like you are a part of it? That you can or could do things to change things?
I've one example: my nephew agd 15 phoned his "friends" who had been around earlier and been rude and unpleasant to neighbours. He told them off - told them how disappointed he was, and asked them how they had dared compromise their friendship and themselves in front of valued people. That is what preserves my faith.
It's those that "don't get it" that really scare me. Ive had abuse, vandalism, car trashed and more too, and I watch shoplifting in my local store most weeks, with security who turn a blind eye. The last time I looked a hoodie in the eye in the street, I was threatened with very horrible things. Mind you, I have guy on the street in his late 20s who needs anger management assistance.
Regards
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Last comment - if nobody in power - media, local government, national government - reads this stuff....then is it pointless? Is this just cathartic blowing hot air?
Mr Easton - you of all these contributors are the only person with a voice.
If this is true, I am really sad. Nothing will change. And now we know teens are as much victims as elders.
Sad country, sad world. So much potential.
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The core problem is that we have systematically removed any thing for the majority of Teenagers to do.
When I was growing up, my Dad worked shifts in a mine, and I had to be out of the house as he needed to sleep during the day. yet there was parks, recreational facilities, or even yards where we could kick a ball about in peace. All of that is now either gone, is on the verge of gong due to chronic underfunding or simply is priced beyond the average household's income.
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We've shut down all the youth clubs that used to exist when I was a child and built on all the fields that I used to play on. It wasn't the youth of today that took away these simple pleasures in life so we shouldn't blame them for congregating in the only places left available to them. It's a bit like blaming polar bears for congregating on the last remaining ice flows.
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w10citizen wrote:
Last comment - if nobody in power - media, local government, national government - reads this stuff....then is it pointless? Is this just cathartic blowing hot air?
Mr Easton - you of all these contributors are the only person with a voice.
Your so right w10citizen. but Marks learning :) the shackels of the state are hard to shake off and even when they are off they leave one hell of a shadow. The BBC and the state skip along hand in hand.
Tim_Warwick .. It's a bit like blaming polar bears for congregating on the last remaining ice flows.
Thumbs up to that. One could also say youth are like fur laidend baby seals and the BBC and goverment are them nasty hunters.
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I want to add my voice to this debate because if I don't, the BBC might get the impression that anytime it tries to talk about social issues other than in a kneejerk, right-wing fashion, the Great British Public lambasts it.
This is a fantastic article. Pointing out the assumptions of a government survey such as this one is a very valuable piece of public service. Thank you Mark. Normally this kind of material is only written in academic circles and is read by very few.
It is very interesting that the people who have replied in such a 'Daily Mail' fashion to this article have refused to acknowledge that the survey (and I have read it) does not say 'Young people hanging around and causing trouble' but simply 'hanging around'.
Also interesting is the survey's statistic that people are more likely to perceive problems in these areas if they read the tabloids.
The facts are that crime has gone down over the last ten years and yet perceptions of it have increased enormously. THIS is what we should be focusing on - asking how this has happening, and what can be done about it.
For the record (as I know I'll just be accused of being a tofu-eating guardianista sitting in my ivory tower), I live in a deprived area with a lot of social housing, problems of unemployment, and people outside of my window drunk during the day and dealing drugs. Just because these problems exist doesn't mean we have to scapegoat a group of people.
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Yesterday on a London Bus a passenger on the upper deck threw an empty drinks can down
the stairs. Anyone could have tripped on it and had a serious accident. Whoever threw it should have been put off the bus and their free bus pass taken away. Of course no-one dared to confront the culprit. It was an O.A.P. that picked up the can. It's time that free bus travel was taken away from all teen-agers in London,
unless they are accompanied by a fare paying
adult.
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I came out of my house last year to find two hooded teenagers sitting on my wall talking loudly.
I said, very politely "Can I help you lads?"
Their reaction? The evil feral monsters stood up, looked me in the eye and said "Sorry, mate" and walked off.
Teenagers ARE demonised. We live in a culture that is not one ruined by liberal values but suffering from a resurgence of ignorant bigotry on race, sexuality and age.
People like Richard Littlejohn are part of the problem. The uninformed rubbish that people spout in their local pub should stay in the pub, not form part of of the national discourse.
I meet a lot of teenagers, 99% of them are pleasant. I live in an area of a city considered unsafe by many, not in the mythical leafy suburbs (I actually think this is where most of the bigotry comes from)
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If a teenager is to be treated like vermin, however well behaved they might be, they might as well start to act like vermin.
It is such a breath of fresh air to read an article attacking the incorrect assumption that all teenagers are going to break your windows, spray paint your cat and eat you flowers before stabbing a granny for her pension.
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Owenthomas 1
I wish there were more people like you posting on here, instead of the Littlejohn clones.
Your last sentence points out something interesting. Us liberal types tend not to live in the leafy suburbs but more in the multi-ethnic areas. The bigots are usually the suburbanites with no experience of real urban life, or those living in all white enclaves.
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To people who quote the crimes of teenagers as a reason for fearing teenagers I say this:
What about the crimes of 'grown ups'?
What about the killers of Baby P? The kidnappers of Shannon Mathews? Joseph Fritzle? The killers of Gerry Tobin? The Killer of Amy Leigh Barnes?
These were not crimes by teenagers, they were committed by people ranging from 20 up to their 50's 60's.
Are we to be scared of everybody? Because there is no age group free of criminals.
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I'm 18 and even -I'm- scared of teenagers. I don't live in a bad neighbourhood, although some people say it is. I don't hang around in groups either, and have never had real experience with gangs or teenage crime. So maybe my views are a little ignorant, but I don't think it's the actual things that teenagers do that gives them a bad name. It's their demeanour, the way in which some of them walk and talk.
I can be walking down the street and someone my age or younger would say something like, "hey gorgeous", and make me feel uncomfortable. They're not -doing- anything - it's just the words. In fact, spoken in a nice way it would be ok. But it's the way in which it's said that is anti-social; it still brings about bad feelings.
It is the way they disregard those around them, not because they mean to, but because they are having fun "being teenagers".
I think if they spoke in a nicer way, were more respectful of people around them and didn't make stupid comments at passers by there would be less predjudice against them.
This, in my opinion, is why even the ones who mean no harm still seem intimidating.
You read the articles and watch the news about gangs and stuff, and obviously that's going to add fuel to the fire, but for me personally it's much smaller than that. It's the little things that matter.
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There are kids that I`d describe as feral, almost always from the worst council estates, but there were when I was growing up many years ago. Street gangs, violence and crime have been recorded going back to Victorian times; they almost certainly existed in the slum areas of cities before that.
http://flashscience.net/2008/10/28/victorian-manchester-home-to-first-youth-gangs/
There are also many, many more well behaved youngsters. I understand that in a few areas it must be like living in a war zone, but this isn`t my experience (and I live in a downmarket area of my city) and I`ve never felt intimidated walking around my city, day or night. I`ve worked with teenagers in schools and colleges over the past 20 years and never had any discipline problems. Sweeping generalisations don`t really help move this debate along. Nor does tarring all youngsters with the same brush help. As a few have already pointed out this is all about how adults perceive youngsters, not the reality.
`So anyway, how does one get a job like yours? I think we all want one.` # 20
To enter most professions you get good A & AS levels, go to university, do a degree course and start applying for jobs. Education is the key to a better life, many youngsters understand this too.
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Ive just been sorting out books as were moving house and came across a childcraft book from when i was 7 and at the age of 7 we were taught respect.
below is a passage/observation from the book.
title : What Should a gentleman do?
A gentleman sometimes tips or takes of his hat to show some respect.
A gentleman takes of his hat when he stops outside to talk to a woman he knows.
He tips his hat when he lets an old lady sit down in his place on a crowded bus.
A gentleman takes of his hat when a lady enters the elevator of an apartment house, but leaves his hat on in the elevator of a bank or store.
A gentleman should always take of his hat when the national anthem is played in a public place or when the flag is carried past him on parade.
A gentleman must know when to remove his hat, when to tip it, and when to leave it on his head.
And if a gentleman can't remember what to do with his hat, maybe the gentleman shouldn't wear a hat.
A bit old fashioned I know but show me a childrens book with such in nowadays. My 17 year old son thought the passage was very suprising for th simple fact it was in a childrens book.
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Mark clearly you have never had teenagers hanging around outside your house day after day or kicking a football at your car, throwing their rubbish in your driveway or standing their in their hoodies at night time when you are parking your car.
You are making light of what is a real problem
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I'm now more worried about nine counter terrorist police turning up on my doorstep for the offence of doing my job.
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Somebody has seen fit to send my above post to the moderators, in the event that it is not reposted, i'll try and paraphrase.
There is a criminal element in every age group. You only have to watch the news to hear how an adult has abused a child, murdered a baby, shot a biker or raped and murdered a young model.
If we were scared of any age group that contained a minority of criminals, we would be scared of everybody!
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Comment 42 regarding youth clubs is exactly right. My father, in his 70’s, has said to me on various occasions that he feels sorry for today’s teenagers, because when he was a teenager, there were youth clubs to go to, providing free activities for them. He and his friends all went along regularly and had a great time. From what I understand, they were in every local area and served a very useful purpose.
Its obvious that today, there’s nowhere like that for teenagers to go. They hang about outside with nothing to do, and eventually some of them will cause trouble. As the saying goes, the devil makes work for idle hands.
Whose bright idea was it to get rid of all the youth clubs? I think if they were brought back, they would go a long way towards solving the problem of bored teenagers on the streets. They could have games rooms, show films, run courses, there are so many possibilities. They should be staffed by paid youth workers who get to know the teenagers in the local area. Surely its far better to include teenagers in the local community in this way, rather than alienating them, and ending up living in fear of the vandalism and trouble they cause.
I really wish that the government/ councils etc, would invest money in youth clubs and similar schemes for young people. It would repay the investment, because if teenagers felt they were included and part of the local community, hopefully less of them would feel like vandalizing and annoying that same community! At the moment, the lack of investment in facilities for them sends the message to them that they are not important and not valued, just a nuisance, etc. They’ve got that message from society, and therefore that’s the way they act. Of course, youth clubs won’t solve everything. There are other issues in some cases, like poor parenting and lack of discipline, etc, as others have mentioned. But youth clubs seem like a good idea that would work for a lot of teenagers, so why not bring them back?
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Are you for real? How can you compare old ladies with groups of youths? You've been watching old Monty Python episodes again (they weren't documentaries).
This is more moral relativism that gives not only liberalism a bad name but also the BBC, who decided you were the right man for the job.
Get a grip, grow some common sense and get out of the office once in a while.
And watch out for the grannies...
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a song by BM. So much of what he said is now all to true.
You can't blame the youth
You can't fool the youth
You can't blame the youth
(Of today)
You can't fool the youth
You teaching youths to learn in school
That cow jump over moon
You teaching youths to learn in school
That the dish ran away with spoon,
So You can't blame the youth
(When they don't learn)
You can't fool the youth
(Can't fool the youth)
You can't blame the youth
(Of today)
You can't fool the youth
You teach the youth about Christopher Columbus
And you said he was a very great man
You teach the youth about Marco Polo
And you said he was a very great man
You teach the youth about the pirate Hawkins
And you said he was a very great man
You teach the youth about the pirate Morgan And you said he was a very great man
So You can't blame the youth of today
You can't fool the youth
You can't blame the youth
You can't fool the youth
All these great men were doing
Robbing, raping, kidnapping and killing
So-called great men were doing
Robbing, raping, kidnapping
So you can't blame the youth
You can't fool the youth
You can't blame the youth
(none at all)
You can't fool the youth
When every Christmas come
You buy the youth a pretty toy gun
When every Christmas come
You buy the youth a fancy toy gun
So You can't blame the youth
You can't fool the youth Y
ou can't blame the youth
You can't fool the youth
But What was hidden from the wise and prudent
Is now revealed to the babes and the sucklings
What was hidden from the wise and prudent
Now revealed to the babes and sucking
Lord call upon the youth
Cause he know the youth is strong
Jah Jah call upon the youths
Cause he know the youth is strong
So you can't blame the youth
You can't fool the youth
You can't blame the youth
(Save the children)
You can't fool the youth
Don't blame them Not their fault!
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Well maybe your "perception" of the problem would be different if you'd watched your best friend having their head kicked in by a group of "harmless teenagers"
Typical bbc hand wringing - wake up this country is going to be a zoo in a few years
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`Are you for real? How can you compare old ladies with groups of youths? You`ve been watching old Monty Python episodes again (they weren`t documentaries).
This is more moral relativism that gives not only liberalism a bad name but also the BBC, who decided you were the right man for the job.` Comment 57
Its not moral relativism if both groups behave in a similar, peaceful way.
Where I live there are groups of youngsters that drift round in groups in the evenings; they are peaceful, law abiding and so on. They have the energy that the young have but that is all. I did much the same with my friends when young. So why be more concerned aboout them than a group of pensioners doing the same?
The discussion is about adults percieving teens per se to be a problem. In some areas they are, but in many areas they aren`t. The only thing they are guilty of is being young!
Your experiences may well be different to mine, we live in different areas. But stereotyping ALL young people as trouble makers isn`t either accurate or fair.
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Are you for real? How can you compare old ladies with groups of youths?
Your right generally there are more rude old ladies than teenagers % wise. God there rude.
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48. The Notting Hill Hammer wrote:
"Us liberal types tend not to live in the leafy suburbs but more in the multi-ethnic areas. The bigots are usually the suburbanites with no experience of real urban life, or those living in all white enclaves."
Yes, absolutely - I lived in urban utopia for much of my adult life. Never again.
Now I have enough money to live in a very quiet semi-rural area.
There are loads of kids here, but they live in decent families and engage in shocking activities like playing computer games and doing their home work. There's no 'youth clubs', swimming pools, Butlins, etc but somehow they all seem to get by.
As a grown adult, I have no desire whatever to go back to living in an area where I have to cross the road and keep my head down to avoid eye contact with children.
I also mentioned above a neighbour who moved house to avoid intimidation. You're quite right, anyone who can afford it does flee those areas.
I'm quite happy to leave the war zones to the 'liberal' types who caused the problem in the first place.
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The comment about youth clubs is very valid. Our council is on the point of closing down the local Boy's Club, because of its name (and despite the fact that many girls are members).
At the same time it sponsors any number of women-only organisations. Go figure, as they say...
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Why does the BBC constantly miss the point on this isssue? And why is the BBC's stance the same? Moreover why does the BBC have a 'stance' at all?
Impartiality? Remember? That little word that you promised to uphold in return for enforced taxation that allows people to own a television.
People do not regard children themselves as a problem. What they regard as a problem is the fact children have so many rights now and adults have so few rights that children are somthing to be feared.
And its true, you can dress it up however you like but even the nicest most well behaved child is still somthing to be feared.
The reason being is that if they take a dislike to you they have the power to take everything away form you with a false accusation. And you have no defense. Even if you are proven to be innocent the damage is already done.
Thats why people fear children, thats why people don't want to be involved with children and thats why nobody in their right mind would ever attempt to stop a child or group of children from doing somthing that is anti social/against the law.
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We constantly hear of 'teenagers' spoken about as a group. There is no distinction drawn between good and bad teenagers.
Imagine for a moment that somebody levelled their accusation at a different group. Say Asians or Women.
Lets say, for example, (and I want to make it clear now that I do not hold these views) that Asians were thugs and women were lazy.
These comments, quite rightly, would be construed as racist and sexist. People would denounce the author of such comments and they would certainly never make it past the moderators on a forum such as this.
Yet, it appears alright to say teenagers are criminals to be feared. You cannot put millions of very different people all in one category.
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Wake up people, it's all just a part of tearing up our society by this labour government.
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`What they regard as a problem is the fact children have so many rights now…they have the power to take everything away from you with a false accusation.` #64
Unfortunately as recent high profile cases demonstrate a few adults can and do act in dreadful ways towards children. That`s the dillema and why an accusation can`t be ignored and has to be investigated. I agree that false accusations can occur (One was made against a friend of mine teaching in a school, the girl later admitted she’d invented it to get attention, but it was pretty traumatic for him and his family.) but, and it is a big but, we can’t afford not to investigate such allegations. Look at the comments in the Baby P thread of a few days ago. There are also many more cases of child abuse than of false allegations against adults.
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laugh_on you have hit an unspoken truth.
As one of the founders of a community group the task fell on us by LAW to write a social inclusion policy.
this is the bit that the law says we must have. there is probably a lot more groups we could add to it but 99.9% are covered in the list
The Association is against discrimination in any form and believes that no person should suffer disadvantage or less favourable treatment by reason of:
Race; Colour; National or Ethnic origin; Religious belief; Physical, mental or emotional disability; Marital status; Sexual orientation; Academic qualifications; Unrelated criminal conviction; Employment status; Political status; Gender.
It is intended that no individual connected with the Association shall hinder the provisions of this policy. The Association will ensure this by making known the provisions of this policy statement to members of the public.
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Of course, 'most' teenagers are not criminals, or even a signficant minority - they are few and far between - but when you look at stories like this, you realise that they are far more able to strike fear into the elderly, and far more of a risk to society than we are able to acknowledge..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/7755678.stm
Unless we recognise the problem rather than stumbling along in denial, we will do nothing to resolve the very real problem this is becoming..
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'Hanging around' on streets is certainly not a defining feature of teenagers but one constructed socially and through cultural norms. This is clear from comparing modern Britain with other countries and with different time periods. The 'teenager' as a distinct cultural group only really came into being in the 1950s and they didn't really start visibly 'hanging around' on the streets (as opposed to in Wimpy bars or one another's houses) for another twenty years after that.
The modern notion of gangs of hooded teenagers is the result not only of a self-fulfilling media prophecy (the portrayal of kids as gobby delinquents by everything from teen dramas to serious news pieces) but of economic changes whereby both parents are expected to work, creating a generation of latchkey kids and a climate of antagonism between teens and their parents, reinforced in schools where adult authority is increasingly illusive.
In turn this drives the teenagers to seek out the company of their peers, away from the perceived 'authority' of the home environment where they 'egg one another on' in a cycle of pressure to misbehave. This is backed up by studies from other EU countries, where parents and young people are much more likely to have the opportunity and inclination to spend time with one another, and where the proportion of youngsters socialising on the streets and getting into bother is dramatically lower than in the UK.
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As a 'feral young person' who (recently-im 22) grew up around council estates, i don't really know what we can do about the problems raised by the above people.
Yeah, there are plenty of kids out there who are pretty messed up, and find entertainment doing bad things to others who live around their area. Knives are a problem, and young people feeling they need them is a 'killer' circle as they carry them through fear of others carrying knives, but also remember murder rates have been decreasing year on year for the last five!
However, one of the biggest dangers that most of the posters are falling into is pigeon-holing all young people together. Not all groups of teens that are hanging on the street or in estates are into all that madness, it just seems like that because the media and older people love to promote those opinions. The problems that cause these things to happen (because lets face it, kids aren't born evil) are so far reaching, and the consequences of asking questions about causes are awkward for society as a whole. It means labelling (rightly) parents, goverment, the police 'force' and each and every one of us in failing to address the problems either through fear, apathy or ignorance.
Lastly, regardless of what you think of teens hanging around, when i used to hang on the estate, or even drive near them, we'd get get stopped and searched at least twice a week, although i know friends (mostly black) that got it at least twice a day. One day i asked the policemen that were stopping us (a group of 3 that day) why they were doing it, and why when we'd answered all their questions, were they searching us? The answer, as usual, 'anti-social' behaviour. To this day i still believe the answer i gave: 'how is sitting around talking with mates anti-social?' My reward for this dazzling observation?! A night in the cells. Is that fair?
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When I was a teenager ...it's true that we used to 'hang around' ...but in my time grown men were not the slightest bit scared of getting into trouble for giving us a hiding if we upset them.......I was even given a black eye by a policeman for being ever so slightly cheeky to him ...and without doubt we would have gotten some extremely rough justice from local men or from the Police for any of the kind of antisocial behaviour kids get away with now.
I just can't imagine how badly 'we' may have behaved if we had lived in this modern PC world where we could do just about anything and most 'men' would simply turn a blind eye rather than risk getting involved and being the one who gets into trouble and that is why everything has changed. Adults are too 'scared' of being the ones who get into trouble.
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I totally agree with peterjol. The government need to give the right to fight back, by teachers, police and the general public. In my younger days, if caught causing minor disturbance or things like scrumping, we would get a whack on the back of the head with the famous waterproof cape by our local bobby. Would we have thought of retaliating then, you bet we wouldnt. Hanging around, what else is there to do, oh be accused of watching too much telly or playing video games. Do you really think that 20 kids in a group are looking for trouble? I bet 18 of them are there for something to do. Where have all the youth clubs gone? Investing in the future means treating our younger generation with a bit more respect.
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Sadly my comment above got censored, never mind.
One of the things I commented on was that were I lived previously I experienced the phenomenon Mark believes does not exist - I must have been hallucinating, my neighbours too.
I now live in a semi-rural area with far fewer facilities than the city (zero in fact), but almost zero crime. There are loads of kids but they don't seem to feel a need to behave like this. The key issue seems to be the nature of the families not the provision of some sort of Butlins type constant entertainment.
It's pretty obvious that many/most kids dont intimidate/assault/even kill adults. But some do, and powerless local people dont like it.
I'm not sure why this idea is not getting through - most people will never have a relative murdered, run down and killed, die from AIDs etc etc But for those people where it does happen some dodgy statistic about 99.999% have never had it happen to them is a bit irrelevant.
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The arguments in Mark's blog are so full of holes, one doesn't know where to start.
For a start, how much trouble do groups of middle-aged women, pensioners or fify-something businessmen actually cause on the streets compared to groups of teenagers?
What's the stats on this one Mark? Let's have another survey.
It's actually quite reasonable to expect people to fear the latter compared to the former, on the basis of their actual experiences.
I don't remember the last report from the BBC of a group of anti-social pensioners smashing up a bus shelter, perhaps Mark could enlighten me?
It's not teenagers "hanging around" that is the problem per se, it's the 100% valid observation that a group of teenagers congregating together on the streets in this way are, more than any other social group, likely to commit the sort of low level crime which is such a feature of life in poorer areas of the towns and estates around the country.
It's ridiculously condescending of Mark to bilthely assert that people are wrong to regard young people "hanging around" as a problem, unless he's spent some time experiencing what they experience in their daily lives.
Part of the problem is that Mark, like most BBC journalists, exists in a bubble of academic, metropolitan, liberal-luvvie land, where no-one is condemned, everyone is a victim, is "deprived," or exhibits "challenging behaviour."
So we end up with this wishy-washy claptrap, so typical of BBC output.
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I once saw some boys of about 11 years old throwing stones off a bridge at cars passing underneath....I told them off and they just laughed and said "so what....what are you going to do about it mister".......and the worst thing was that they were right...I didn't have a clue what to do about it!.....I didn't dare give them a clip around the ear, which is what any adult would have done to me when I was a kid and the last thing I wanted to do was phone the police and spend my day involved with it......so I just had to walk away and leave them to it..... and that's the way life is these days....adults have to leave the kids to do absolutely anything they want.
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I am disgusted at those who seem to believe that the Official Secrets Act was intended to protect Govts and their Ministers from their stupid actions and incompetencies. The Official Secrets Act was designed and INTENDED to protect information that was vital to the Nations Security and Safety. In fact the employment of ILLEGAL immigrants in the security sector and the House of Commons was a far greater risk to national security than the leaks.
Get with it BBC
I have been trying to get this on BBC HYS
No luck - to much polical bias by the BBC
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wonder how the weekend behaviour of the 18-45's is you know the ones rivers of vomit ,piss and blood all over our towns and citys awash with pissed up people.
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I'm a 'babyboomer' and teenagers in my day were 10 fold and more of what they are today but we didn't cause anywhere near the problems that these ones today do.
Teenagers need somewhere to 'hang out', just as the businessmen hang in wine bars or ladies in shopping malls. Everyone has to be somewhere.
The problem is the disrespect that these teenagers show towards their elders and the world in general.
That is caused by their parents and to a lesser degree by their teachers because they are the people who direct them through the informative years of the learning curve of life.
The very people who complain are the ones causing the problem.
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Mark Easton reveals himself as part of the sneering liberal elite who really haven't a clue what's happening on the streets of Britain today.
Comparing a gang of hooded youths to a group of pensioners is akin to comparing a pack of dogs to a flock of pigeons. Utterly spurious!
A little more research of your own and a little less regurgitation of false government statistics is needed, Mark!
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http://democracy.wirral.gov.uk/Published/C00000121/M00000352/AI00002421/$ReconfigurationofYouthServiceProvisionamended24NovemberCabinet271108.DOCA.ps.pdf
nice kick for youth.
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I went to a rural private school in 1968. A few years earlier a pupil was expelled for dealing in drugs. These things are not new. The difference is that a modicum of discipline kept 95% of kids in order. Only a few dared to transgress in a serious way. Today there is no discipline and the 5% now push most of the rest into anti-social behaviour.
Most humans are sheep who need to be led. If you take away the discipline good leaders used to be allowed to exercise, what happens is that the bad leaders take over. Education theorists and restrictions on parents have caused this. Now the punishment is suspension (what they all want anyway), but if you are a 5 foot single mother with a 6 foot 6 teenage son, allowed no legal means of controlling him, you are jailed if he does not go to school. We have the absurd political correctness of New Labour to thank for this (and much else).
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I don't agree that 'hanging around' is just what teenagers do. I don't remember doing this as child, and I don't believe I'm that unusual. Most normal children are busy with schoolwork, music, sports, whatever hobbies and interests they have, family meals and activities, socialising with friends at each other's houses, even TV and computer games and the internet, which are perfectly fine activities in moderation. That is, the ones with decent parents who look after their children and take an interest in their lives and put some boundaries around their behaviour - like sensible age-appropriate restrictions on where they're allowed to go and what they can do and with whom, and when they have to be home. The very fact that some teens are allowed or even encouraged to wander the streets all day or night with no structure to their lives and no involvement from their parents and no idea of what else to do with their time implies that something is fundamentally wrong with their home life, that quite likely their home is a chaotic, neglected, even violent, generally unpleasant place to be.
I don't mean to excuse bad behaviour - of course once you reach a certain age you have to start taking responsbility for your own actions, regardless of what an awful job your parents did. But it's also worth remembering that some of these young people don't have anything like the safe, supportive home environment that most of us took for granted.
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has anyone stopped and thought of the reason teenagers hang around in the first place?
maybe its because their is nothing better for them to do.
jobs are not easy to come by and even if they are lucky enough to get a job or college ect they still need time to be kids.
at present there is very little for teenagers to do and they often feel pretty powerless to change anything hense the vandelling. in order to get some attension they kick up.
i in no way support the gangs ways of doing things like the drugs, guns, knives and drink but i can see why to young teens it would be an attractive occupation.
if you wanna stop the intimidation the attacks provide them with something which they can do which gets them somewhere that they are gonna enjoy dont stand there and criticise and complain when you have denied them the chance to be kids.
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I do agree that there isn't enough 'free' things provided for kids to do.
Again that is yet another problem caused by the PC brigade.. Health and Safety regulations have made it far to risky and far too expensive for anyone to provide them with 'anything'.
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I hung around as a teenager too, but we didn't get into any serious trouble beyond nicking the odd Mars bar from the newsagents. The reason for that was we knew that any adult could, and would, quite legitimately, give us a good hiding, with the full support of our parents, the police, and the rest of the community. Government has taken away all of that, and now we act surprised when children run wild. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
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#3 newSweetMonkey2 wrote:
"So what about the statistic on knife crime? Are these to be ignored and just swept under the carpet and treated as normal teenage behaviour?"
Consider yourself fortunate ...
The same teenagers who pull out knives in the UK would be pulling out guns in the US.
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I'm a teenager who doesn't go out and hang around street corners ect,
If I'm anti-social outside and inside, what do you want me to do?
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If someone said "groups of blacks are infesting our streets" or "groups of gays..." can you imagine the outcry? Why is it OK to discriminate against someone based on their age? I have been intimidated by the anti-social behaviour of large groups of adults on many occasions (on trains in particular when I have had small children with me); my 12 year old daughter was verbally abused by pensioners on a bus, so - no I don't find the analogy in the article flawed.
Aren't we supposed to protect children, and if so, aren't they safer in groups than on their own?
As for the anecdotal evidence in many of these comments: is it really due to these people being teenagers? In other words, will they grow out of it or are these just anti-social people or criminals who just happen to be young? The mistake is to try and deal with the gang rather than the individuals - there will be one or two trouble-makers and a lot of hangers on who are scared of them. It also helps if you know some of them by name. You want them to learn how to live in a sociably responsible way - you need to lead by example.
I don't recognise where a lot of the people making these comments used to live. As far as I know assault has always been a crime whether on an adult or a child. I don't think 'giving someone a good hiding' has ever been condoned by anybody who doesn't believe in mob rule and linchings. Come on - there wasn't a golden age and there is no secret PC brigade who are trying to undermine the fabric of society. Stop believing what you read in the Daily Mail and if you want to change something, get out there and do something about it.
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This thread started as a discussion about teenagers hanging around but it has turned into one about teenagers behaving badly.
Nature gave us pain as a way of learning when we are very young. Intellect and reason come later. When I was young the playground surface was concrete and we all learned very quickly not to fall off the slide or the swing. In the same way I learned not to let peoples' car tyres down or throw rubbish into their gardens. It wasn't brutality by any means, just much more effective than a deep discussion about morality that I wouldn't have understood and much, much better than a criminal prosecution when I got older. I'm 39 now and feel very strongly that we are failing our young people by letting them do what they want whilst at the same time giving them nothing to do. It was the complete opposite even 30 years ago. Why has our focus changed?
I suggest it is because we as adults have become more selfish......my property, my money, my car, my time, my space, mine mine mine.
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It wasn't too long ago that i was one of these youths hanging around outside in a group, probably looking menacing. Not all youths are troublesome, but you're not wrong to be suspicious, as they will take advantage of you.
I can't help but notice, that since mobile phones have been more heavily distributed the the gatherings are getting larger, and allowing the youths to organise their gatherings. Where as before there may have been fights and disorderly behaviour, but not everybody had a phone to locate the where abouts of the other group members and summon them. Nowadays, the majority have phones, and all it takes is one phone call to call in the cavalry.
A fair few of these youths may not attend school, but they may attend a local youth club if accessable. It's not just activities that should be provided in these youth clubs, but also guidance into getting qualifications and work. There should be work shops, certificates should be awarded to youths for making positive progress.
All this requires funds, but the fact is the government can either invest heavily now, or pay up more later for prison expenses (which i'm sure is a lot more costly)
Assuming worst case scenario, that these youths are going to later go onto commit crimes and end up in prison or given some punishment, that all costs money. Why not spend the money providing a greater level of service, preventing, rather than paying for their punishment. By no means am i suggesting lighter punishment infact, i think there should be longer sentences for crime. I don't think government funds are being invested wisely enough. As ultimitely, providing services to prevent people from spiralling into a life of crime costs money. Prisons are also very expensive to run, thats why the sentences are much shorter, because of the high cost to run them (not because their trying to help people out).
So its a vicious circle, there's not enough services to deter youths from commiting crimes, the sentences they recieve for commiting crimes are too short, so this does not deter them. Then the situation just grows and grows.
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This country does have a problem - and the 91 bigoted idiots above me are exactly it. (Apologies if you were one of the few to make a rational post)
I have no idea where you all live, but I live in one of the worse areas of Nottingham and we have kids hanging around after dark all the time. If you actually took the time to go and chat to them, you would find they are all good kids, who just have nothing better provided for them to do. The problem is that supposedly responsible adults such as the above morons go outside and are hostile to them, and deserve everything they get.
I actually read a quote on such a forum the other day where someone seriously advocated going out and assaulting the teenagers as a kind of preventative vigiantilism. Who's the danger to society now?
The middle-aged holier-than-thou people in this country make me sick. I think most of you are just scared of anyone younger or poorer than yourself.
btljs321 is right - the people complaining about teenagers on the streets are the exact same people who complained about the blacks on the streets 20 years ago - its just a new target for their disgraceful bigotry.
Well done for bringing this up Mark -excellent post.
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I'm nearly 70; when I remember how, as youngsters, my generation comported themselves I could get very angry at todays youngsters. I hear time and time again the wingeing twisted faces of teenagers saying that they are "are bored". This generation of young people are the most indulged, spoilt badly behaved that this country has ever seen. Kids were I lived made their own amusements, walked for miles and our only 'bad behaviour' was the occasional bit of chalk from school with which we chalked on the pavement and that only lasted a few hours until it rained. A lane were I live is littered with beer cans, crisp packets and other detritus left by, guess who? There are bins sometimes feet away but do they use them, not on your life. For all the hard times my generation had to put up with we were immeasurably happier than todays miserable indulged young people. I am ashamed of the lot of them.
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Hanging around is not something all teenagers do. I didn't hang around street corners in the cold - In was probably too scared of the other kids who used to hang around my neighbourhood for such non-activities!
I'm 32. Things haven't changed much since 1991, say, except that the games consoles have improved. But if that was true then, it would suggest that those who loiter on street corners now, are similarly not the harmless kids who'd prefer to be off playing sport, computer games or doing something creative.
It's strange being able to remember older people taking against you because of your age, and now being nervous/wary of loitering gangs of teenagers.
Of course, for the most part it is an irrational fear, and you have to remember that they're probably just good kids, bored. However, the comments of enough people on this forum suggest that it's clearly not always the case.
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Anonymouse - I can't decide whether this post is a clever piece of satire or not. It reads a little like the 4 Yorkshiremen sketch from Monty Python.
"the wingeing twisted faces of teenagers"
This sounds a little like Wilfred Owen - the alliteration and para-rhyme scheme is excellent.
As for:
"todays miserable indulged young people"
speak for yourself. I'm a young person, and I'm neither miserable nor indulged, and I don't know many of my peers that are. Perhaps its just the ones that you spend time with?
I've never vandalised a pavement either for that matter, and neither have any of the kids that live near me. I hope you were given an asbo.
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" it would suggest that those who loiter on street corners now, are similarly not the harmless kids who'd prefer to be off playing sport, computer games or doing something creative."
Surely its better for them to be out in the fresh air talking to their friends, than rotting their brains in front of a computer or TV screen like their parents probably are?
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I am wondering if this is a new 'problem' we have in today's society? Did we have disorderly teenagers causing mayhem and fear such as knifepoint robberies, graffiti violence, violent attacks on the infirm and women in the past on such a large scale? Did we see this perhaps in very few areas and not so widespread? How did Britain deal with these cases then and now?
There are teenagers who hang around shopping malls, street corners etc. (as we did when we were young when we were not out at discos, ice-skating or whatever our other interests were. Then there are 'teenagers' who, in my view, never had a proper childhood, who do the same but have a twisted idea of what society in general means to them and who have never had anyone to guide them except perhaps older gang members (substitute parenting). They are social misfits.
We really need a Britain today where children are given back the right to be children again and this needs to be a joint effort between schools and parents. We should concentrate less on educating 'children' about their 'rights' and about sex (especially at such a young age) and more on old fashioned morals which worked fine for our previous generations. Discipline is also something even young adults producing these children/teenagers need themselves.
Some form of conscription is needed - either into the armed forces or some sort of social work for those who do not attend school or wish to drop out at 16 with no further plans for training/work.
Maybe it's an appropriate time to mention God in all this too. We have swept religion not only out of the window but have become such a Godless nation that we rely too much on looking up to politicians and film stars to lead us, many of whom lack the good morals that could pick up a nation.
Historically there is a pattern of humanity moving in circles and there is every hope that, with the correct analysis of the roots of the problems we have of teenage delinquency getting out of control, sociopaths ruling our communities and many other social ills, we will move forward again once a plan to tackle these problems with a sensible, disciplined and fearless approach.
We need is to scrap some of the senseless laws that have been introduced in latter years preventing us from having a proper voice.
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#95 I've never vandalised a pavement either for that matter, and neither have any of the kids that live near me. I hope you were given an asbo.
I did when i was young but back then you did it in the town centre and got paid for it.
used to be called street art but some one complained that it was an eyesore even though the whole thing was in chalk pastles that ended 30 years of street art.
now we have random scrawl on random walls, lamposts, fences, shop fronts.
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As a teacher abroad, I'm delighted that Mark Easton has brought up such vitally important issues as the decline of community spirit and problems with teenagers, because they are relevant all over the world. Mark Easton, Tim Warwick and others are unusual in trying to see the teenage point of view, in this case.
There just may be a wonderful solution to all these social problems: it's called Cohousing. Imagine council estates redesigned into Cohousing Clusters of 30 flats around their own little enclosed areas where kids could play safely, and a common house where residents could get together for shared meals and activities. Several clusters could be gathered around a much bigger central area with facilities like a plastic-covered skateboard/biking area for kids to play on rainy days, a mini-sports field, a bingo/karaoke room for seniors, a teen club with soundproof rehearsal rooms for budding rockers, even a tiny stream and veggie garden.
Maybe the whole area could be guarded by friendly teams of unemployed residents, who might find a new sense of self-worth in being an important part of the community, and even supervise recycling schemes or do repair work.
We really need to stick together now in these times of world economic crisis, so I hope people might consider possibilities such as these. How about the BBC launching a Council Estates Cohousing Design competition? All powered by Solar Power, Wind Power, or the great new British Fridge Power!
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Hey! py0alb you wrote your bigot comment right underneath my post, saying the problem is the 91 bigots above, you need to be clarifying exactly who it is ur calling a bigot, and who your not. As far as i'm concerned i just wrote my piece on the matter based on my life experiences, next thing i know someone is throwing insults that might be in my direction!
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No I wasn't really talking about you, rather the people who poopooed the idea that its worrying the way teenagers are demonised in this country, and then used the platform to do exactly that (entirely failing to spot the irony).
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Barbara A ..... this is so well put. I hope one day this is happens.
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I suppose a nice analogy would be why get worried about Iran’s Uranium enrichment programme as this obviously mean’s they plan to launch nuclear weapons. Adults get worried, suspicious, when teenagers ‘hang around’ because it could be the quiet before the storm.
Surely the case is for teenagers to hang around that there is simply nothing to do, therefore they create things to do, usually to entertain themselves. But kids being kids want more and live life on the edge, usually hurting people or damaging property for entertainment.
The stats don’t surprise me. We need to give our young adults something to do, whether this is organised events, youth clubs etc. We need to keep them off the streets, get them involved in something else and we should see our streets become a safer place.
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The real problem is that 'anti-social' behaviour has become a grosssly overused and abused phrase.
What is 'anti-social' about a group of teenagers 'hanging around' together? Most of these youngsters are normal people doing what we've all done as teenegers (yes - even the oldest amongst us did have some opportunity to be sociable). We expect it of the very young children and do everything to encourage it - so why should it stop when they reach the grand old age of 13? Maybe if a parent or two allowed their home to be sullied by their own youngsters and freinds it wouldn't be necessary for kids to meet on street corners.
On the other hand, drug dealing, vandalism, thuggery, intimidation (i.e. deliberate intimidation - not just being a teenager) are examples of criminal behaviour and should be dealt with as such.
Lesser offences need to be nipped in the bud. A short sharp shock is what's needed for a first offence. The back of my Dad's hand on one occasion only was a pretty good deterrent for me and my siblings. If the local bobby booted a backside you didn't go crying to Mummy that's for sure - it was the best way to double the punishment! For persistent offenders, a couple of weeks prevention of social activity generally solved the problem. This does need an element of effort and supervision - and if parents don't want that responsibility they shouldn't have had kids in the first place.
Loud parties? Yes - OK, that's anti-social; and that's all it is. It doesn't hurt anyone and lets try to remember that this isn't restricted to teenagers. Have you ever been in a wine bar filled with a bunch of 'responsibile' business men and women with a few drinks inside them?
If there is no differentation between the description/treatment (and therefore, the perception) of 'normal behaviour', 'misbehaviour' and 'criminal behaviour' is it surprising that half the country feel threatened by 'anti-social' behaviour?
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Here we go again pillaring and blaming the youth of the country for most of our social ills.
Well actually yes indeed they are partly to blame, but mostly for me the blame lies with yet again our pathetic short sited excuse of a government.
Most of the social institutions that were so important to the youth of yesterday such as youth clubs, and the like have disappeared, through lack of funding, investment and the continual strangulation by exsessive rules and regulations enforced by councils.
Couple this with the new lefty lefty approach to discipline that has been the flavour of the month for the last decade, with the government deciding to take moral authority and discipline out of the hands of parents and schools, along with the ridiculous cost of out of school activities.
Is it any wonder then that we now have youths wandering the streets with nowhere to go, nothing to do, no sense of direction, no idea of morals, ethics rights wrongs finding themselves engulfed within a culture that glamourises drugs and allows them to be freely available.
Doesnt take the most intelligent of folk to figure out the likely result.
When will the people of this country realise that the far left ideology is as damaging on society as that of the far right.
This lefty fantasy land folly has got to stop and lets get back to common sense.
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People tend not to worry about groups of middle-aged women and pensioners because they have a remarkably low tendency to inflict assaults on people, vandalize property, etcetera. Perhaps if they did start acting up they might get some of the money and attention squandered on worthless youths.
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If kicked football's keep denting your car, perhaps it's time to set up a youth centre and teach football rather than endlessly "confronting" the "youths".
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I remember being kicked out of the local shopping center with a large group of friends simply because security felt that young+group=trouble.
A small contingent of our group had a POLITE conversation with some security guards later that lunch time and the problem was sorted. I dont blame the beleaguered security guards. The problem lies with the vermin who make it necessary for people to be wary of teenagers.
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#67
Whilst i can see your point you need to understand just how out of proportion this all is.
Despite how the BBC and its ilk publicise cases like baby P they are extremely rare indeed.
The majority of accusations are found to be false. I'm not saying don't investigate such things but the adult should be listened to aswell and if it is found a allegation is false that child should be punished to the full extent of the law.
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