Map of the Week - Racism and tension
In an office in Whitehall, a team of government officials is charged with keeping tabs on racial tension across England.
The monitors at the Department for Communities and Local Government were assembled amid ministerial fears that the pain of the economic downturn might translate into social strains and potential violence.
An academic study to be published by the University of Manchester next month (and which will appear here) finds that racial prejudice has been "declining sharply in Britain since the 1980s thanks to the greater tolerance of younger generations".
This week's Map of the Week tries to understand what is happening on the ground. The BBC has taken the leaked details of BNP members and applied them to a map of the UK.
The first thing to say is that BNP membership is very low but there are some areas where the party is more active. My interpretation of the map is that there is a spine of BNP support running down the Pennines from the former Northern English mill towns of Blackburn, Burnley and Bradford to Derby, Nottingham and Leicester in the East Midlands.
For data protection reasons, I am not posting the local detail, but it turns out that the place with the greatest concentration of BNP support is Morley, near Leeds.
There are also parts of East London and Essex with high numbers of BNP members but it is noticeable that the capital generally is not a breeding ground for far-right support, despite the highest levels of racial and ethnic diversity.
I wanted to know whether BNP membership was a proxy for poor race relations and so I have obtained some data from the DCLG tension monitoring team and applied them to a map of England.
The measure of social tension is based upon a huge survey in which residents are asked whether "people from different backgrounds get on well together" in the local area.
The map colours range between bright green (where 100% of the population think that "people from different backgrounds get on well") to bright red (where 40% or fewer believe the same). Broadly, green means good race relations while brown/red suggests tension.
I am indebted to the Centre for Advanced Spatial Analysis (CASA) at University College London for turning the numbers into a map. You can dive down into the data by accessing it on their MapTube website.
Now, there are clearly some similarities between BNP membership and areas which suffer low scores on the cohesion measure. Once again, the Lancashire towns of Blackburn, Burnley, Nelson and Colne are highlighted. There are also poor scores in parts of East Anglia and in some neighbourhoods to the east of London.
But what is interesting to me is the apparent lack of social tension in the Midlands, despite high levels of diversity and BNP activity.
I suspect that membership of far-right groups is as much a factor of local organisation and targeting as it is of racial tensions.
In any event, the paper from the University of Manchester that I mentioned suggests that any gains the BNP might make in the short term will be ruled out by a much broader and long-term trend.
The study, due to be published in next month's British Journal of Sociology, uses indicators of racial prejudice from the British Social Attitudes surveys to examine prejudice against black and Asian Britons.
This graph paints a clear picture, I think, of the direction of travel, although it would be more helpful to have more recent numbers...
Figure I: Period trends in social distance
(a) Attitudes to an ethnic minority boss
Asked about their attitudes to having a boss who was Asian or black, the proportion of respondents who said they would "mind" fell from roughly 20% to less than 15% between 1983 and 1996. Among those who would "mind a lot", the fall is less dramatic; nonetheless, it is welcome.
Dr Rob Ford, who headed the research team, says that social contact with black or Asian Britons is becoming increasingly unremarkable to white people in their 20s and 30s.
Racial attitudes in Britain, he concludes, are structured by generation, with a large decline in expressions of prejudice among those in the cohorts which have grown up since immigration began. "Consequently, levels of racial prejudice are falling and are likely to fall further."
Nevertheless, the team of DCLG monitors is keeping close tabs on a situation that may become increasingly volatile as unemployment levels rise in areas of significant immigration.
Update [Nov 25th, 1430]: Further evidence of the decline in racist attitudes among younger people may perhaps be found in figures released today on racist chanting at football matches. There were just 23 arrests during the whole of the 2007/08 season. That's the lowest ever recorded level - down 70% in five years. This is possibly a consequence of changing attitudes rather than simply of changing policing priorities. What is your experience?
I'm 
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This article uses the rather dated terminology of 'Asian'. In doing so, it ignores the fact that the majority of the 'Asians' in the Northern mill towns where BNP activity is higher can further be differentiated as 'Pakistani' (see Census, 2001), as apposed to Indian, Sri Lankan. It is only on consideration of this fact that one can explore the real reasons for the rise of the BNP in these areas, as apposed to, for example, areas like Ealing, Harrow or Hounslow, which have high Indian populations, rather than Pakistani, but haven't seen a surge in BNP activity- Is is because of religious discrimination against muslims post 9-11 leading to BNP activity in these areas? Or is it because those Mill Towns are relatively deprived. Or have the ethnic groups themselves got something to do with it- Have some groups been more successful in integrating into British society? Is the fact that Indians are more likely to own the home that they live in a factor? (See Govt stats) Is the relative success of Indians vs Pakistanis in education (see Govt stats) a factor in integration? Additionally, this article focuses on 'an Asian boss'. Indians are the immigrant community in the last 50 yrs that have been responsible for creating the most number of jobs per immigrant. Is contribution to society a factor that makes people more likely to be accepted? This isn't a criticism of 'Asian communities' other than my own, Indian. It is an acknowledgment of difference. only when we accept that there are massive differences amongst different 'Asian' groups can problems, such as the rise of the BNP in some areas be investigated accurately- And I am not just having a rant- this is based on my own research- see "Racial Terminologies and The Criminal Process- Breaking the Mold to Ensure Accurate Ethnic Monitoring' in the Journal of Criminal Law 2002, by myself, Kamal Sharma
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Perhaps the most telling change is the way the BNP presents itself.
Unlike the NF in the 1970s, the BNP doesn't feel there is any future in promoting itself as a racist party.
Whether or not the BNP is racist, the party knows it would be electoral suicide to admit it.
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interesting data analysis but an analysis too early.
you are missing one key factor here and that is the economic conditions at the time.
during a downturn or just bad times, people need someone to blame. if you look at the rise of nationalism, anti-semitism, or any other right wing groups - they all do better during a downturn.
if 2009 turns nasty as indicators say it will, you should take a fresh sample and analyse that.
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I grew up in Morley, leaving in the early 90's to move down South to study and live - I never picked up on any increasing tensions during that time - just called my father who still lives there and he confirms there are now an isolated number with far-right views. Thankfully the local BNP council candidate was defeated during the recent elections.
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"...to examine prejudice against black and Asian Britons."
What about prejudice against white people? Home Office figures show 2/3 of racist attacks are against whites.
And perhaps this hopelessly biased article could be balanced with study that compared crime and unemployment with levels of ethnic diversity. Maybe we could even explore why whites with wealth and money choose to leave the most ethnically 'enriched' areas. How about it, BBC?
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Karmal, thanks for your comments. If I may reply:
"This article uses the rather dated terminology of 'Asian'. In doing so, it ignores the fact that the majority of the 'Asians' in the Northern mill towns where BNP activity is higher can further be differentiated as 'Pakistani' (see Census, 2001), as apposed to Indian, Sri Lankan."
I agree entirely, unfortunately the only data available uses the, as you put it, dated terminogy of Asian (and black, which is not shown in this post). I found no differences, however, in attitudes towards Asians and blacks.
"Additionally, this article focuses on 'an Asian boss'. Indians are the immigrant community in the last 50 yrs that have been responsible for creating the most number of jobs per immigrant. Is contribution to society a factor that makes people more likely to be accepted?"
Actually, the article, which I hope to be able to post on my website, also looks at attitudes towards racial intermarriage as well as attitudes towards both black and Asian bosses. Attitudes towards racial intermarriage change even more rapidly than workplace attitudes, and attitudes towards a black boss change just as fast as attitudes towards an Asian boss. I think the change is more likely to be the result of a general rise in acceptance of diversity rather than any specific actions on the part of minority groups.
"This isn't a criticism of 'Asian communities' other than my own, Indian. It is an acknowledgment of difference. only when we accept that there are massive differences amongst different 'Asian' groups can problems, such as the rise of the BNP in some areas be investigated accurately- And I am not just having a rant- this is based on my own research- see "Racial Terminologies and The Criminal Process- Breaking the Mold to Ensure Accurate Ethnic Monitoring' in the Journal of Criminal Law 2002, by myself, Kamal Sharma"
I quite agree, and I will be sure to check out this article.
Kind regards
Rob Ford
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Sabs972:
"you are missing one key factor here and that is the economic conditions at the time."
Actually, I tested a wide range of meaures of economic conditions (both national measures and personal economic experience like unemployment) and found no link at all between these and racial attitudes. This is in fact a common finding in the literature - there is relatively little academic support for the commonly made observation that racial tensions or attacks rise in economic downturns. For example, the BNP's success over the past five years have come during a period of economic prosperity.
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Wowsignal, I'm afraid the evidence does not back up your claims. I don't know what Home Office report you refer to - I have never seen it. There is also no evidence of a link between diversity and crime or unemployment in the studies I have seen. Finally, there is no evidence of "white flight" from diversifying reasons. If anything, the opposite has occurred with previously white suburban areas around the main cities becoming more mixed as newly prosperous ethnic minorities move into them from the inner cities.
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Most of the commentary on the location of BNP members, in regard to both the original in The Times and the one above, seems to be regarding the areas where there is a relatively high concentration of members.
It is pehaps more interesting to look at some of the postcodes that are BNP free zones. The UK map shows up vast areas of Scotland and Wales and parts of the West Country, East Anglia and the South East free of BNP members, but due to the scale used it fails to show the inner city areas that are clean. Perhaps we might have expanded London, Birmingham and Manchester maps.
There are a number of inner London postcodes that are BNP free. SE8 (Deptford) is poor and extremely diverse but not a single SE8 address appears on the list.
kamalarsenal is barking up the wrong tree, the significant factor in many of the places that have high BNP membership, and have had high levels of tension is that of town that has a homogenous white English community living alongside an equally homogenous immigrant community. Typically mill towns whose economic base disappeared a generation ago there are a disproportinate number of Pakistani communities in this situation, but there is no reason to believe that being Pakistani or Muslim is in any way causative.
The problem is division not diversity; something that officialdom seems unable to grasp.
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Dirty_Old_Man, I think you have hit the nail on the head when you say that the problem is division and not diversity.
I do think that the article has mentioned it when it stated that there were "... some similarities between BNP membership and areas which suffer low scores on the cohesion measure".
We all share common ground and social cohesion is far easier to achieve if you concentrate on what we share rather then on what separates us.
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What about prejudice against white people? Home Office figures show 2/3 of racist attacks are against whites. Wowsignal. Comment 5.
I think your figures come just from Oldham in one particular year (2001). They aren`t reflected elsewhere. In London [for example] for the same year (2001) where the black and Asian share of the population is double that in Oldham, the police recorded between two and three times more racist attacks on black and Asian people than on whites.
Your claim doesn`t appear to be reflected either for other years or nationally.
Please back up your vague and unspecific claim with the name of the Home Office report, date published etc.
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What an interesting map. We should all be grateful for the leakage of BNP membership onto the web despite the fact that the act was in itself abusive.
There need be no correlation between BNP membership and racial tension. Whilst a degree of BNP sympathy can develop in an area of racial tension this need not manifest itself into any political action.
In my view a degree of BNP membership and activity is more dependant upon the prior failure of a local Labour Party to be inclusive to white working class sentiment in the area. In many cases this arises from the domination of the local Labour Party by the most organised local group. This can very often be the local mosque seeking to initiate much needed improvements in a dilapidated area.
In my view often quite innocent motives of such neighbourhood groups to participate in local management can contribute to mutual suspicion, anger and eventually hatred.
As a matter of principle our politics need to become more inclusive at street level so that all feel involved and equally treated. This is a task for all the political parties.
I think the difference between Hindu and Moslem groups is more dependant upon the economic period in which the immigration took place, the motive of the immigrants and what happened to them later. I agree with Karmal above that the Hindu settlement has been largely successful when compared with the Moslem but there is a major difference in wealth and opportunity between the London suburbs and failed mill-towns in Lancashire.
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Others have said that the 2/3 of racist incidents being anti-white is unsupported. Even if it were true it wouldn't mean that white people are more victimised than non-white people.
Imagine a town with 100,000 people. 85% of them are white, 15% non-white.
There are 30 racist incidents in a year, 20 against white people and 10 against non-white people.
That means that there are 20 incidents against the 85,000 white population, or 1 per 4,250 people.
There were 10 incidents against the 15,000 non-white population, or 1 per 1,500 people.
So if you're non-white, you have a 280% higher chance of being the victim of a racist attack than if you're white.
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Is there a problem with measures such as membership figures for a political party or x% of people say Y, in a situation of political repression?
For example, what if I conducted studies using similar methodology in North Korea?My guess is very few people are members of political parties other than the ruling party. Equally, very few people would say they have any problem with having kim-jong-il as a boss.
Would you give my research any credibility?
UK not like that? We are in a 'democratic' country?
Being a member of the BNP can cost people their job, they are under surveillance by MI5, banks are closing accounts and people are being threatened with violence over their membership. Saying something 'racist' can be a criminal offence or cost people, and their family, their livelyhood.
Where there is a situation of political oppression, is it sensible to rely on measures such as party membership or own statement as a tool to assess attitudes?
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Very interesting and everything but should the bbc really be making maps out of illegally leaked data?
More importantly as others have said, how on earth does a BNP map give any real guide to racism?
I bet countless white racists support other parties, then of course you've completely ignored racism by ethnic minorities who are of course just as racist as anyone else - not just to white people but often to each other - eg in Birmingham.
The BNP often achieve success where other parties have failed to represent the electorate so could it be that the map just represents areas of failed democracy?
Finally you've also failed to note how the BNP has vastly more members in areas with a large asian/Muslim community, and generally far less in areas with more blacks
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"Others have said that the 2/3 of racist incidents being anti-white is unsupported. Even if it were true it wouldn't mean that white people are more victimised than non-white people."
Yes but the figures themselves are fundamentally flawed. Every time an ethnic minority is attacked most police forces assume it to be racist until proven otherwise. Whereas when a white person is attacked the opposite is generally true.
This isn't necessarily a big criticism of the police - one can understand why it happens for a great many reasons. However, it is still completely unacceptable.
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I wanted to know whether BNP membership was a proxy for poor race relations? Mark Easton
Possibly a better yardstick would be to use the number of votes the BMP get in elections matched against the % measure of social tension. People are more likely to be honest in the polling booth, particularly as they can retain anonymity. Those that want to be activists tend to be party members; those that prefer to remain passive just turn out to vote.
I would calculate the number of votes as a percentage of the area`s total population, not of the total number of votes cast, as voting tends to indicate strong feelings. Those that don`t vote at all can be considered as amongst those that think `people from different backgrounds get on well`.
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Why is it that any time there is talk on racial tension, some people get defensive and talk about racial tension against whites? The truth of the matter is that ethnic minorities suffer disproportionately as a result of racism compared to white people who have suffered the same unpleasant experience. Ethnic minorities are likely to have their livelihoods, personal safety and wellbeing than white people. Why is that right? People have the right to be treated fairly, end of!!
I am yet to see a white person not get jobs, housing and suffer mental anxiety problems only to be locked up longer than any other ethnic group just because I moved into the area or had a strong opinion about that person. No one is supporting racism in favour of blacks, it is about fairness, pure and simple.
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Whn I looked at the map, one name immediately came to mind: Andrew Dillnott.
The postcode district I live in contains upwards of 25,000 people. At that level, the difference between 0 and 40 people is just statistical noise; that tends to be borne out by the large area of the country with 0-10 results.
The first thing that I would want see was the same data mapped on a logarithmic scale ie:
0
1
2
3/4
6-8
9-16
etc
I suspect that migt paint a rather different picture.
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As someone born in this country of middle eastern background I can confirm exactly in the course of my own life the dramatic change for the better that has occurred in this regard during the course of my life time. Having attended schools in England in the early 80?s and having to put up with almost daily discrimination to the situation today where people such as myself are almost universally accepted in England is a dramatic shift in a short period of time and something this country should be proud of! Furthermore this shift while not universal is broadly speaking the way the world is going thanks to decades of immigration and subsequent interaction between groups in Western countries, not to mention the digital communications revolution sweeping the world. There will be in this county and others a continued minority of people who chose to fight these changes but they are fighting and unwinable battle against the inevitable borderless, colour blind, world community that humankind is evolving towards.
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"Why is it that any time there is talk on racial tension, some people get defensive and talk about racial tension against whites?"
Becasue the map is misleading and only looks at white BNP racists - rather than all racists from every ethnic group.
"I am yet to see a white person not get jobs"
You must have missed the 300 or so police force applicants denied jobs due to them being white males.
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"Why is it that any time there is talk on racial tension, some people get defensive and talk about racial tension against whites? The truth of the matter is that ethnic minorities suffer disproportionately as a result of racism compared to white people who have suffered the same unpleasant experience. Ethnic minorities are likely to have their livelihoods, personal safety and wellbeing than white people. Why is that right? People have the right to be treated fairly, end of!!
I am yet to see a white person not get jobs, housing and suffer mental anxiety problems only to be locked up longer than any other ethnic group just because I moved into the area or had a strong opinion about that person. No one is supporting racism in favour of blacks, it is about fairness, pure and simple."
maybe you didnt see the 3 part tv documentary"immigration the inconveniant truth" the reporter was Ragi Omar (apologies for any spelling error)he displayed several blatant examples where immigrants went straight to the front of the housing queues in preferance to white families that had in some cases been on the housing list for years. also whites interviewed said that when they reported any kind of racist abuse /crime the police were dismissive to accept that it was racially motivated where as they automatically treat a crime against a minority as racially motivated....you appear to suggest that racially motivated crime only occurs with whites as the perpetrators.your opinons can be viewed as racist.does racial abuse/hatred not occurs whith non whites as the instigators(muslim abuse of jews for example.why are the incidents between various minority ethnic groups not listed?racial tension between black and asian groups is extreme in many areas.
and it is ridiculous to claim minorities suffer disproportionally to whites as a result of racial crime and then to say people should be treated fairly.....are people not individuals?does every victim of crime not deserve the same consideration? are you suggesting that a person who is white and is victim to persistant abusive racial behavior around his home is suffering less than another non white person who is undergoing the same kind of crime?despite your attempts at trying to hold the moral high ground,it seems as though your opinions are just as blinkered and biased if viewed from a neutral standpoint
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13. At 2:14pm on 25 Nov 2008, wrote:
"....Imagine a town with 100,000 people. 85% of them are white, 15% non-white.
There are 30 racist incidents in a year, 20 against white people and 10 against non-white people.
That means that there are 20 incidents against the 85,000 white population, or 1 per 4,250 people.
There were 10 incidents against the 15,000 non-white population, or 1 per 1,500 people.
Anthony Zacharzewski"
But Anthony, if you look at the perpetrators of these attacks - 20 racist attacks from 15,000 non-whites (1 in 750) and 10 from 85,000 whites (1 in 8,500).
MB London
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Coming from a younger generation, I feel I am more "tolerant" of different races, in that I dont really give a damn about anyones racial background. This is shown by the fact I have dated a Pakistani and a Chinese girl, and am currently in love with a Bulgarian.
However, I do feel that people from ethnic backgrounds play the race card ("you did that because im muslim/black/asian"), particularly in the workplace, as they are aware of the stigma surrounding it.
Racial tension isnt helped by the fact that whites are forced to change traditions and make concessions to accomodate "respect for peoples culture" whilst Muslim preachers are allowed to bad-mouth Christians in the street. No christmas decorations at work is an example of this.
I mentioned before that I was dating a Pakistani girl - In fact, I had to stop dating her otherwise she would have been disowned as I was not and was unwilling to become a muslim. If this does not display a lack of respect for non-muslims, I dont know what does.
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I distinguish people as friendly or not friendly, (ignoring the latter).
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It's interesting that Leicester was noted as being one of the places with high BNP membership. In about 10 years time, Leicester is going to be the first city where whites are an ethnic minority. It sounds as though the last remaining whites in Leicester don't like the idea of becoming an ethnic minority in their own homeland. The Russian government senses similar "anxiety" in it's own population and is taking measures to ensure that it's native population does not become an ethnic minority in it's own homeland:
http://tinyurl.com/russianimmigrationreform
http://tinyurl.com/5f6dh3
"The number of non-Russians working in the retail trade is now being limited to 40% and, by 2008, that number is supposed to be zero. The new law was proposed after race riots in northern Russia last summer. In the aftermath of the riots, President Vladimir Putin spoke of the need to defend the interests of the native population.
At the time of the November announcement, the deputy head of Russia's migration service, Vyacheslav Postavnin, called for limits on the concentration of ethnic minorities in towns and cities across the country. Postavnin said their numbers should not exceed 20%, to prevent "enclaves" emerging in which native Russians were outnumbered.
"According to our calculations, compact habitation by citizens of another country in any district or region of the country should not surpass 17% to 20%, especially if they have a different national culture and religious faith," said Mr. Postavnin, quoted by the Vremya Novostei daily.
"Exceeding this norm creates discomfort for the indigenous population.""
So whilst the Russian government is in tune with it's indigenous population, and takes steps to protect them, the uncaring British government does nothing and refuses to protect the indigenous population from being outnumbered. Even worse, the British (Labour) government tells it's indigenous population that they should "celebrate" and "embrace" the fact that they are slowly being dispossessed of their territory/culture/identity etc.
What a contrast, a Russian government that is doing all it can to protect it's people and a British (Labour) government that seems to be actively trying to destroy it's native people. So it's no wonder that more and more people are turning to the BNP.
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23. At 12:22pm on 26 Nov 2008, 1940WhatAWaste wrote:
13. At 2:14pm on 25 Nov 2008, wrote:
"....Imagine a town with 100,000 people. 85% of them are white, 15% non-white.
There are 30 racist incidents in a year, 20 against white people and 10 against non-white people.
That means that there are 20 incidents against the 85,000 white population, or 1 per 4,250 people.
There were 10 incidents against the 15,000 non-white population, or 1 per 1,500 people.
Anthony Zacharzewski"
But Anthony, if you look at the perpetrators of these attacks - 20 racist attacks from 15,000 non-whites (1 in 750) and 10 from 85,000 whites (1 in 8,500)."
MB London - You are correct - "lies, damn lies and statistics".
Those stats actually mean that non-whites are 12 times more likely to be racist than whites! Surely this a more accurate and relevant statistic?
The same thing has been happening in Northern Ireland for the lsat 40 years, when it is often reported that the smaller irish nationalist catholic community are more likely to be attacked than the larger pro-british protestant community.
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The BBC have been raiding far left extremist websites & blogs for their material again.
How about a credit for the bloggers who actually published this weeks ago?
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Now who's to blame for the hate that hate made?
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No 8, as a white victim of racism I can say that the difference in how the two are treated is extreme.
As someone white who was attacked by someone black I felt like I was treated as the guilty party and that I had committed the crime of daring to be hit in the face by someone black and that it made me guilty of racism. The truth about this country is that we?re so brainwashed and obsessed about race issues that our responses are often totally out of proportion, and the real joke is that we?re not nearly as good at racial equality as places like America.
I lived for a while in LA and it was astonishing how many black people there are there in positions of power, it is amazing how much better the whole multi-racial thing seems to work there. The propaganda here always seems to hint that we are the less racist society - well that?s a total lie. Maybe the key is that Americans are so much more laid back, something we are totally incapable of. They have a far greater tolerance for all opinions - even racist ones, and allow people to maintain the cohesion of their own local communities. In reality the place has far lower racial tension and all despite much bigger other problems - extreme poverty, old racial history, crime, very high levels of immigration from South America, etc. LA?s almost a disaster zone but .. Maybe if the government here and people like the BBC didn?t treat everything as a propaganda campaign. I know it?s a shock but you don?t need to be brainwashed to be anti-racist
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[Note to EDITOR: punctuation correction]
No 8, as a white victim of racism I can say that the difference in how the two are treated is extreme.
As someone white who was attacked by someone black I felt like I was treated as the guilty party and that I had committed the crime of daring to be hit in the face by someone black and that it made me guilty of racism. The truth about this country is that we're so brainwashed and obsessed about race issues that our responses are often totally out of proportion, and the real joke is that we're not nearly as good at racial equality as places like America.
I lived for a while in LA and it was astonishing how many black people there are there in positions of power, it is amazing how much better the whole multi-racial thing seems to work there. The propaganda here always seems to hint that we are the less racist society - well that's a total lie. Maybe the key is just that Americans are so much more laid back, something we are totally incapable of. They have a far greater tolerance for all opinions - even racist ones, and allow people to maintain the cohesion of their own local communities. In reality the place has far lower racial tension than here and all despite much bigger other problems - extreme poverty, old racial history, crime, very high levels of immigration from South America, etc. (LA's almost a disaster zone but ..)
Maybe if the government here and people like the BBC didn't treat everything as a propaganda campaign? I know it's a shock but you don't need to be brainwashed to be an anti-racist.
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@MB
You wrote "But Anthony, if you look at the perpetrators of these attacks - 20 racist attacks from 15,000 non-whites (1 in 750) and 10 from 85,000 whites (1 in 8,500)."
In fact, you can't work out the number (or rate) of perpetrators from the number of victims. Some people may well have attacked multiple victims.
You would have to count the perpetrators separately.
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What will it take to prove to the USA and UK governments that the simple truth is that people when free , peaceful and happy, choose to live with their own?
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To Holty1883 ? Your comment is typical of those made by some of my friends who blame ethics especially Muslims for not allowing them to put up Xmas decorations etc. I too have read articles where people call Xmas something else because it has the word Christ. I also read a story that an entire council meeting was banned from eating because it was the month of Ramadan. Yet all these people who came up with these stupid ideas were non Muslims. When I asked my Muslims friends if they really mind, they replied NO, one even said he wished it could be Xmas everyday. LOL
About you dating a Pakistani Girl, if she truly loved you she would have left her family. Furthermore you suggest the stumbling block was your religion not your colour.
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To Holty1883 ? Any Muslim preacher badmouthing any Christian person should be reported to the police, did you?
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Wowsignal i totally agree with you and your comments. If you look at England and even more so the USA the most racially abused person is the WHITE person. We seem to be the hub of everything, if we were to make a comment about a black/asian we are deemed racist BUT it seems totally acceptable for black and asian people to say what they want about white people. Extreem double standards in my view but there you go.
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Wowsignal i totally agree with you and your comments. If you look at England and even more so the USA the most racially abused person is the WHITE person. We seem to be the hub of everything, if we were to make a comment about a black/asian we are deemed racist BUT it seems totally acceptable for black and asian people to say what they want about white people. Extreem double standards in my view but there you go. I think something has to be done.
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Wowsignal i totally agree with you and your comments. If you look at England and even more so the USA the most racially abused person is the WHITE person. We seem to be the hub of everything, if we were to make a comment about a black/asian we are deemed racist BUT it seems totally acceptable for black and asian people to say what they want about white people. Extreem double standards in my view but there you go. I think something has to be done.Wowsignal i totally agree with you and your comments. If you look at England and even more so the USA the most racially abused person is the WHITE person. We seem to be the hub of everything, if we were to make a comment about a black/asian we are deemed racist BUT it seems totally acceptable for black and asian people to say what they want about white people. Extreem double standards in my view but there you go. I think something has to be done.
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All this proves is that people are afraid to speak their minds for fear of prosecution. Almost everyone I know despises immigrants. This country is another Yugoslavia waiting to explode.
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any clampdowns are to keep peace.
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at chelsea they said
racism will not be defeated when people tolerate
each other
but learn to appreciate
each other
the blues the blues the blues the blues
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Update...
Police arrest and hold without charge an official of the conservative party - a legitimate and lawful opposition party - for revealing information on immigration the government found embarassing.
Under this climate of oppression, you are surprised that people are no longer willing to openly express their fears?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
There seems to be different notions of racism at work. `Classical Racism' - the idea that us white folk are `better' than coloured folk, who exist only to be used and abused, and what I think of as `Real Racism' - treating people differently based on the colour of their skin.
The former tends to be thought of as connected with right wing thought, notice that Mark Easton was trying to make connections with the BNP, rather than, say, the Communist Party. I'd like to stress that although something of a lefty myself, I've met several people with quite right wing views who haven't ever struck me as being particularly racist.
However, sadly the latter, `Real Racism' seems to be more a preserve of left wingers. There are some who seem to feel the need to bend over backwards to accomodate people if they have different skin colour (or religion or culture for that matter). Far more than they do for their own. This seems to be the origin of the over the top ideas of `banning Christmas' or `Baa Baa Black Sheep' (although it must be said that the usual media exageration and distortion play a part as well.)
Vulkenstein - I think you're exagerating a shade, I know plenty of people who don't have a problem with immigrants. And the responses to this blog alone are showing plenty of people not afraid to speak their mind. I am not at all afraid of prosecution for doing so. Perhaps I should be afraid of making an idiot of myself, but not prosecution. :)
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There is definitely an obsession with the colour of skin complexion more than the colour of hair, eyes or freckles etc. It's strange white people want to colour their skin with suntans, tattoo's, fake spray tans or will melanin injections.
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When I started work in the late 60's I worked in factories and there were always a few non white's.. Indian's or Pakistanis and funnily enough they had far more prejudices against each other than any whites had for them, but even so it wasn't anything serious and we all got along great, the only racism was some humorous banter, which usually went both ways with them taking the mickey out of white people, .......and none of them ever came to any harm walking the streets at night. We even went out socially.
The thing that saddened me over the years as their numbers grew was the way it all changed, they started to 'only' gather in their own groups, talking in their own language... and all the friendship seemed to disappear and the integration was gone.
It has made me become completely against 'welcoming' more and more immigrants to the country, because when it comes down to it they are even more prejudiced against 'us' than we are against them.... and the more there are... the more we segregate instead of integrate.
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Why do we live in a country where you lose your job and are socially outcast for being in a political party? Standing up, or even stating your feelings is universally accepted as wrong.
or even words like 'black' or 'asian' have become taboo and racist insults according to the first poster.
I for one think the BNP are correct in a lot of things they say (although my post will prob not be allowed by the beeb now).
Theyre gaining popularity because there are issues, issues that need to be solved, without the use of council based theories of 'tolerance'(which itself falsely implies that whites don't want others there but put up with it) and 'embracing other cultures'(which is only applicable one way it seems) and the worst of them all 'positive discrimintaion' (which implies that the 'ruling' white population are racist and have to artificially bias the process to make it fair).
I wanted to do a film and tv course that was run with government funding. I couldnt because it was only for ethnic minorities.
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there are a lot of preconceptions about what people are which bugs me as we are not stereotypical.
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no 47.
What exactly do you think the BNP are correct about? Could you be more specific? Involuntary repatriation perhaps?
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Repatriation is what Marcus Garvey, Malcom X and the Ku Klux Klan have in common, but one resorted to murder.
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I find it interesting that people who are 'white' are classed in many circles as somehow 'indigenous' to Britain.
Despite the fact that Britain is made up of immigrants at different stages if history, someone who is 'black' could be just as 'British' as someone who is white. For example compare someone half Italian with someone half Jamaican.
The BNP think that just because someone is slightly browner than somone else it means they have less of a right to stay in the country they were born and have lived all their life and where there family lives.
It is true that racism happens all ways between all colours and nationalities but shouldn't we be against it no matter who it is directed at? Just because someone who is 'white' has suffered a racist attack it does not mean that racism against 'black' people is justified.
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A lot of racism is borne from the so called fairer Britain type legislation which is generally perceived by the greater population to discriminate against them by giving minority groups preferential treatment over jobs, housing and benefits.
Working in a factory environment too often I see these groups exercise these rights unfairly to avoid certain tasks or claim an advantage for a vacancy often riding roughshod over equally and often better qualified applicants, even to question them let alone insist they do a job that they do not wish to do will result in a visit to HR for an accusation of racism that neither management or the unions will challenge for fear of litigation.
Our governments may pass all the legislation they like until they're blue in the face. You cannot make people like each other, but you can very easily turn them agaist each other and towards extremism.
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