Britain has a drink problem
At a meeting inside No 10 last November, the prime minister told the drinks industry it was on the naughty step. Unless behaviour improved, relations would become distinctly frosty.
For years, ministers have tried to stay best buddies with the big brewers, bar owners and distillers, promising to maintain a light touch on their businesses in return for a bit of self-regulation and corporate responsibility.
Those who warn of the consequences of the "demon drink" risk being dismissed as puritanical kill-joys, a charge considered so toxic to electoral success that politicians have traditionally steered well clear.
But patience has now worn very thin as the true cost of alcohol to British society becomes ever clearer...
"Mandatory regulation and labelling could be on the cards for the alcohol industry" says an official government press release today. Happy hours could become unlawful. Customers may have to be offered smaller servings with clear information on how many units are contained.
Since no article on this subject can survive without the cliché, let us get it over with now: if they weren't there already, the drinks industry is firmly in the last chance saloon.
"The drinks industry is not adhering to its own voluntary standards, and new evidence suggesting that alcohol is a far wider cause of damage to people's health than previously suspected" says the Department of Health which calculates that the cost of alcohol misuse in England is £17.7bn to £25.1bn per year, with a cost to the NHS of £2.7bn.
Home Office Minister Tony McNulty makes a similar point. "In many places alcohol is being sold and marketed irresponsibly" he says. "Over the next few months we will work intensively with industry representatives and other interested groups to breathe new life into the system. If necessary we will introduce legislation to make the new standards mandatory."
Politicians find this very tricky territory, so even after all the warnings, the industry is still being given a "few months" to get its house in order.
If terrorists or bird flu were killing 500 people a month, ministers would announce a state of emergency. But no. This is alcohol and Parliament restricts itself to encouraging "responsibility".
"Alcohol can play an important and positive role in British society" the government literature states. How different from the "just say no" message for much less harmful drugs.
Indeed, ministers insist the drugs strategy and the alcohol strategy remain separate despite numerous calls from experts to do the logical thing and bring them together.
Britain's relationship with booze is so deeply engrained in our way of life that government dare not say what is obvious - we drink too much.
Russians find it hysterical. Italians think it disgraceful. But for the British, drunkenness is a bit of a laugh. No - it is more than a laugh. Getting bladdered, plastered, slaughtered and legless are seen as part of our cultural heritage. It's traditional: births, weddings and funerals, Friday night, Saturday night, you passed, you failed - who needs an excuse?
On prime time TV, those home movie shows feature pie-eyed party-goers falling over and a nation collapses in mirth alongside them. Yes, it's just a bit of fun. Letting our hair down.
But we worry too. And so we might as we count the "trickle-down alcoholics" - 6,000 children on alcohol treatment programmes last year. A thousand of them under 14. The average amount of booze slipping down the necks of our under-15-year-olds has doubled in a decade. One hundred kids a week hospitalised through drink - most of them girls. A sevenfold increase in young men dying of chronic liver disease since the 70s.
Drug workers say that alcohol is now the drug of choice for our young people - the key component of what is called the ACE profile - alcohol, cannabis (or possible cocaine) and ecstasy.
A quarter of drivers caught over the limit are under 24 - last summer it was teenagers who helped push drink driving figures to a 10-year high.
It's not just youngsters. Asked about their drinking habits, almost four out of 10 men in Britain emerged as hazardous drinkers. And those were the ones who admitted it. The cost of the damage done by alcohol, both economically and socially, makes the idea that it's only a few spoil-sports who are to blame utterly ridiculous. Britain has a drink problem.
I'm 
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In theory, there is one quick and simple fix;
Enforce the guidelines that say no alcohol to anyone who is OR APPEARS TO BE drunk.
That, of course, will never happen, as the big drinks boys make most of their profit from pouring ever more booze down the throats of the already-boozed up
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Mark
I think that many others places also, have a drink problems...
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I go out around the country, and one of the changes I've seen is in peoples drinking habits.
A few years back you went out around 7, you drank, chatted and did things such as play pool, dance or use fruit machines. You drank a fair bit, but rarely stupid amounts.
Now, due to the smoking ban and cost of booze in pubs, people are picking someones house and drinking there before going direct to a club. A few of us do this, and in same amount of time I've noticed we're drinking considerably more as there's no queuing at bars, moving between pubs and less alternative activities.
This means an increasing amount of drinking is unregulated for age or drunkenness.
People are now drinking more, earlier, younger and completely outside the scope of the drinking industry.
An interim solution would be for the government to reverse its years of tax assaults on the draught industry and refocus it on supermarkets and off licences selling cheap beer. That would return the drinkers to a regulated environment and reduce the volume drank.
Even that would eventually just increase the current black market of cheap fags from the continent to include cheap booze though.
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Step outside and say that you big pansy......No you're my best mate I'd never hit you honest.
Perhaps Britons need to drink because of the miserable hell hole it has become due to successive poor governments. It's crowded, overpriced and the weather is usually rubbish.
At least getting pissed up is fun. Apart from all the negative consequences obviously.
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Get to the root cause of the problem (i.e. lack of parenting skills) and don't waste my time and money dealing with the symptoms. Price isn't an issue: Britain has the highest alcohol taxes in Europe, and in rural France a litre of (very drinkable) wine costs about 80 pence. Why don't you see any drunk people in rural France? Nothing to do with price at all; obviously.
Why should I be persecuted for drinking beer down at the pub, or wine at home? And if a pub wants to promote its products with "happy hours" why should Nanny be allowed to prohibit it?
There already exist numerous laws to control all the problems that have been identified; they just need to be properly enforced.
Alcohol has given untold pleasure throughout the ages, and these misguided and killjoy new-age puritans should turn their attention to the real issues, instead of trying to make their names by attacking easy, but irrelevant targets.
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It does sound a bit puritanical. But wasn't there a report not that long ago saying that part of the health problem also stems from middle class home drinkers and too much wine? They have to tread carefully. The difference in attitudes between urban and rural pubs could make some legislation difficult. Targetting big chain pubs maybe but smaller local type pubs well. Our attitude to drink I think fits more in with northern Europe. I have known Finns, Norwegians, Dutch and Irish folk who are very proud of their ability to drink. As well as some Poles who are proud of their vodka. There seems to be a trend now to push for a nation of absolute perfect health so that any strain on the NHS is kept to the minimum. This asks the question what is the perfect lifestyle and would everybody want to live it?
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I totally agree this this.
I moved to Spain 12 months ago, and when I come home for the weekend it shocks me what I see, in comparison to Spain.
In many ways it's part of what is keeping me here, and I am reluctant to come back to Drunken Britain.
Since living there I have barely seen anyone outright drunk, and the last two occasions I have been back to the UK I have seen fights in pubs, one of them a Brawl in North Wales.
I really don't know what is wrong with the UK at the moment, but it's all very bitter (no pun intended) Here is it so more civilized, people just enjoy one or two to meet friends, or may pass the night away till the early hours with more but barely get drunk. What kind of anxiety is Britain suffering at them moment that takes us to these levels.
Most of what I have written has been said many times before, but this all saddens me and I want my country back!
Rich
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The problem is not unique to the UK but it is more evident in northern Europe. I have no idea what the answer is. I live in a part of Europe where alcohol is widely available, cheap and not subject to restrictive licensing regulations. Yet the problem is nothing like as serious as in the UK.
I believe this is a cultural issue and additional regulation is not the answer. Neither is manipulating drinking habits through pricing.
Whatever the answer, it does not lie in complex labeling no one is going to read or going back to the bad old days of throwing as much down your neck as you can before chucking out time.
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The governments treats the branch, not the roots. We have CCTV to move on existing crime instead of understanding why that crime occurs.
And now they want to over-regulate the industry where people turn to when they drink to forget a Prime Minister they didn't vote for, an economy they can't afford to live in, paying for a war they didn't want..
What do they think will happen by removing happy hour? That people will drink any less? They'll drink almost as much and pay more to do it, or just get drunk first at home.
And it's a sad state of affairs when one of the only places left to voice this concern is on this website. When's our next election again? Oh, there's no credible choices anyway.
Pint please, barman!
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So the licensed "on-trade" gets threatened with the big stick as usual.
In the last few years alcohol sales in pubs, clubs and bars has dropped in most areas and stayed fairly static in the others. Alcohol sales in supermarkets and off licenses have increased, in some cases, massively.
Of course the government is too afraid to take on the likes of Tesco, they'd much rather threaten smaller easier to blame targets then big business.
Drinking is a cultural thing in this country so I don't put all of the blame on to the sellers. However, if you really want to target those selling alcohol too cheaply, target the supermarkets to begin with. Then at least we'll know things are being dealt with fairly and honestly.
Sorry I forgot - that's not how this government likes to operate.
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At 2:01pm on 22 Jul 2008, chrisboote wrote:
In theory, there is one quick and simple fix;
Enforce the guidelines that say no alcohol to anyone who is OR APPEARS TO BE drunk.
That, of course, will never happen, as the big drinks boys make most of their profit from pouring ever more booze down the throats of the already-boozed up
It may interest chris to know that the biggest alcohol manufacturers in this country, Diageo and Pernod Ricard who account for most alcohol sold in the UK own no pubs.
If you are talking about pub owners then the law is clear- but the government would rather coppers do their stats homework in the station rather than actually enforce the law- when is the last time anyone can remember a copper walking into a bar and taking a look around?
I've never seen it. The enforcers are AWOL!
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Question is, how long until CCTV cameras are fitted onto pint glasses?
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Who's buying and drinking the alcohol? The customers, or the drinks manufacturers?
I realise that being sensible is incredibly unfashionable, but really...you don't blame a car dealer when someone drives dangerously, do you?
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In my life there have been times when I drank more than I do now, but these days I usualy drink 10-12 units a week at most.
From that perspective, I would be very upset if Labour decided to interfere in the way that is suggested here.
If they are so keep on personal responsibility, why don't they encourage people to develop some? Telling people what to do will not enforce that.
Whatever they do will not benefit British pubs, which will be a shame. I like pubs. I like spending time in them. Good pubs are rarer and rarer these days, and this will not help.
I just wish Labour would go and sort out the economy or something. Leave pubs alone.
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The stats clearly show the UK has a drink problem. Yet the stats also show that the UK's pubs are closing at an incredible rate - close on 30 a week over the past year, seven times faster than 2006 and 14 times faster than 2005. Moreover, the pubs that are closing are mostly "wet sales" pubs, ie drinking rather than foody pubs.
So where's the explosion in consumption coming from? As stated by other comments, it's driven by the supermarkets selling beer and cider as a loss leader. (And if you disagree with that, ask yourself, should bottled lager really cost less than bottled water?)
So bans on happy hours and dire warnings won't have much if any any effect, other than closing more pubs, but may play well with the Daily Mail, and the government doesn't have to take on Tesco and Wal-mart. Nice work.
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It is typical of the remoteness and naivety of politicians and civil servants to think that every problem can be solved by economics and/or legislation. The problem is much more complex.
Putting up the price of a pint or measure by 50p would add £5 to the cost of a 10-drink night out. What would that change? The young people who get hammered on a Friday night are not short of cash - look at the money they splash out on club entry, takeaway food and taxis. Most have jobs, but still live at home because they can't afford to move out - and they spend their spare cash on gadgets and nights-out because there is no savings culture at the moment.
Those who would be most hit by a price increase are your ordinary working people, struggling with the increasing price of food, fuel, mortgages, etc., who welcome a cheap drink from the supermarket or an after-work pint in happy hour.
One of the issues which needs addressing is not why alcoholic drinks are cheap, but why alternative soft drinks are so expensive. In a pub, you can buy a glass of beer/cider/lager for less than a bottle of J2O - which has no duty on it other than VAT. Similarly most pubs charge the same for a pint of shandy as for a full pint of beer. Perhaps something ought to be done to investigate these rip-offs.
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I don't think that bashing people over the head with a rule book is necessarily the answer. I think it is worthwhile having a big stick in the background to meter out punitive measures and I think it should be used
What has been missing from this initiative for a long time is the change in culture in this country. We do have a reputation in other countries for being big drinkers. We do nothing that
I lived in France for
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Here's just a wild idea to try and tackle the problem... turn the damn music down in the pubs.
One of the reasons I rarely go out to pubs any more isn't because I can't stand the spectacle of people who are younger and infinitely trendier than me getting drunk on sugar with rocket fuel in it, but because I can't stand the music and I can't hear a conversation - what else are you going to do in such surroundings but drink?
The linked study seems to back this up:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080719/thl-uk-drinking-ed2dca9.html
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I lived in Yorkshire for 11 years, and as the child of alcoholics, one of the saddest bits about living in the UK was the incredible amount of alcohol consumed, and by those so young. In the US there is underage drinking, but the prevalence is less, due in part to a higher age requirement, 21 years old, to buy alcohol or to go into pubs, clubs and bars.
But how many times, when out for dinner, did my family and I witness both other parents consume a bottle of wine, and then maybe a half pint or a full pint of lager, and one of them had to drive home? And their two children sat and watched, learning from their parents.
There is a HUGE problem with drink, and it's not going to be solved with a slap on the wrist to retailers or the drinks industry. There needs to be a serious, total commitment from the government to change laws, and in time, perhaps attitudes will curve as well. But the NHS, a fine institution, will not be able to cope forever with these sorts of pressure.
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It's very sad that the UK government's only solution to this problem is to raise the tax (and that's not just for alcohol!), I doubt that it will make a difference ( only to the government it will of course!) in our drinking behaviour.
There are no public places for young people to go nowadays. Most pubs and bars are for over 21 years only, so what do 16-18 year olds do? They either buy cheap alcohol or ask someone else to buy it for them and then they go somewhere and get hammered, then either walk drunkenly home (wreck a few cars along the way) or get into trouble with the police.
We need to make sure that young people know the dangers of alcohol but also the joy. And joy is not getting totally pissed. Joy is drinking a cool fresh beer on a warm summer evening in the pub. Joy is having an excellent glass of wine while you are having a good time with your friends.
The current ad campaign on TV about responsible drinking is very good. My 17 year old nephew who spent some time with me in the UK was really impressed and said, they needed something like this in Germany, too, as he sees at first hand, just how much young people drink and just how many aren't able to handle the drink.
What to do? I don't know. Maybe this generation starts with educating their children more about alcohol. Maybe the government starts a dialogue with other European countries to discuss this and learn from others (fat chance, I know!)
But increasing tax on alcohol is not the answer.
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In Continental Europe a night out is usually a family occasion and is centred around good food. Alcohol is often much cheaper than the UK, but binge drinking is not an issue. Firstly the rate of drinking is slower as food and conversation is the key focus. Drinking with food also slows the alcohol absorption, so drunkenness is not as easily achieved compared to drinking without food. Most importantly though getting drink in front of family is just seen as embarrassing rather than a badge of honour as in this country.
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Hardly a surprise that the Govt. is targetting booze. If you ban smoking on health grounds, your own logic dictates that drinking alcohol should be banned. I assume that the easiest way to curtail drinking will be to issue 'ration cards' which will be set at either a weekly or daily unit maximum allowance. Once you;ve used up your ration book, that's it, no more drinkies.
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The smoking ban came in years after a ban on the advertising of tobacco products. It is well past time that the "pushing" of a legal but nevertheless harmful drug was outlawed in a similar way. It is surely much harder to kick any habit when being confronted by positive images of that habit as a routine. Those with no "problem" would have no reason to object, while those of us (and it's the majority of Middle Class, Middle Aged Brits as far as I can tell) who should drink less, probably would.
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richiewormiling wrote; "I moved to Spain...", fine.
Sadly that's entirely the wrong direction if you want a fair comparison of Britain's drinking culture. Why on Earth should we have this much-vaunted 'Mediterranean' drinking culture when we aren't remotely close to the Med?
Look on a globe at a line of latitude 51 degrees north and those countries lying north of it. Compare their drinking culture to ours and we're all pretty much the same, we all drink to get drunk.
It appears even the saintly Swedes have a dirty little secret;
http://timstimes.net/2008/02/27/sweden-and-alcohol/
get to the bottom of Northern European culture/geography and we might actually solve this problem, but don't hold your breath.
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As an american who has lived in London for 7 years, the problem of drink in the UK seems to be inexorably connected to the inability of you English to engage in social discourse when sober. The problem won't go away if the prices are raised, pubs are fined, alcohol makers punished. It is rooted in your character. Maybe children should be taught how to communicate at a younger age, say what they feel, speak in a more direct fashion? It is likely too late for the older generation.
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Many years ago when the Dutch decided to tolerate cannabis, anti-social behaviour caused by alcohol declined drastically. The downside of this was that alcohol consumption went down along with all the deceases associated with its over use. The government loss no income from taxes since cannabis was taxed. It would seem that the Dutch traded in the hard drug for a soft one.
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Mark:
A good thoughtful post.
I've seen what an addiction to booze can do. It's not a pretty sight to see someone you care for lose so much because of it.
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Just to reiterate what somebody said earlier in a comment - I used to enjoy going out to the pub at about half past seven and moving on to a couple of bars before eventually going to a club. The walking in between and the queuing at the bars meant I never used to get that drunk. Since the price of beer has shot up in pubs (the other day I bought a pint in Bristol and couldn't believe it when I was asked for £4.75 - just a normal lager too!) I now get alcohol from the supermarkets. It certainly has made me drink more than I used to (after sitting down in one place drinking when you stand up it really kicks in) and is not solving anything. As others have said, the government should treat the root of the problem, not just jack up the prices for extra revenue, especially at a tim when the traditonal British pub, central to our heritage, is struggling.
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Lets see:
1) Pubs are shutting at the rate of 30 a week thanks to the government smoking ban.
2) People are therefore buying booze at the offy and going back to their houses to light up and drink.
Unintended consequence of the smoking ban is the increase in drinking.
Ironic that the people than pushed the smoking ban the strongest are the type of people that dont go to pubs.
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I don`t smoke and I don`t drink, but it seems to me that we have by the ridiculous smoking ban destroyed much of the social fabric that held us together as a society and is in part responsible for many more people being seen outside bars and pubs drunk. It seems to me to be the supreme irony that you can`t have a fag in a pub, but you can drink until you become a basket case...not that I advocate any bans/restrictions etc...leave people alone, I suspect the reason many people choose to get very drunk may have something to do with this over regulated control state that we now live in....leave people alone ,it`s their responsibility what they smoke ,drink or otherwise
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2 Comments, Mark you are right I do think we have a drink problem, since the drinks industry started manufacturing products to children we have hit a slippery slope, I agree that a great deal of the middle class now drink at home (and more becuase of the lack of a measuring device) becuase our town centres are practically a war zone on Friday and Saturday nights becuase they are not policed. Here's an idea - why don't we start enforcing the law, drunk and disorderly - drunk and incapable are arrestable offences - but alas we have no prision cells to put such offenders in.
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Im sorry but we dont live in 'continental europe'. As somebody mentioned earlier we are northern europeans and if you look at the scandinavians, dutch and irish, are our drinking habits that much different?
Britain has always been a nation of drinkers and fighters. Admittedley things have gotten a little out of hand but can we all stop trying to be Spanish or French and realise that we will never be like them.
Supermarkets are a big problem, selling chep booze to anybody who wants it. Also, the introduction of alcopops has coincided with the increase in boozed up kids and young women. Its too sweet and easy to drink, get them on pints of ale and glasses of wine and we'll be back to normal. Anybody can neck a bottle of reef but try doing that with a bottle of newcy brown!!
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To be fair Britain is in a state of transition when it comes to our relationship with alcohol. We have gone from a largely beer drinking society with draconian WW1 licensing laws to a more continental system with a relaxed attitude to licensing and a lot more choice. For the vast majority of people this is great news and makes very little impact on their general health and wellbeing. However as with all human advances the pleasure of the majority is always countered by a minority whose lot gets a lot worse.
The explosion of choice and loosening of licensing laws has meant that alcohol is easier and cheaper to get hold of and for a minority to abuse. This results in that vulnerable groups are at greater risk. The solution to this is two fold. I don't think we can wind back the clock to the days of cloth caps and bitter but we can look forward to a gradual evolving of our drinking patterns to something more moderate and continental. I have no doubt as people get over the initial rush of being left alone in the metaphorical sweetie shop the majority will adapt their alcohol usage. The second part of the solution is to target vulnerable groups and individuals with existing measures but with better implementation. We don't need more laws but better application of the existing abundent legislation.
The recent change in licensing gave us more choice but also gave the police and local authorities much more involvement in how alcohol is distributed. I don't believe in all areas are these powers being used effectively. This is where central government can give a lead.
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I live in Tower Hamlets, an inner city borough and agree with Franziska:
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There are no public places for young people to go nowadays. Most pubs and bars are for over 21 years only, so what do 16-18 year olds do? They either buy cheap alcohol or ask someone else to buy it for them and then they go somewhere and get hammered, then either walk drunkenly home (wreck a few cars along the way) or get into trouble with the police.
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This is why we have a lot of acting out in public spaces, 'speed-drinking' and about two recent incidents where vicars were attacked in their churchyards (a good place to drink with nice benches). The economics favour this. I'd do it myself if I was that age and wanted a beer!
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How hard can this be to resolve.
Brown is looking for an urgent new form of income and being drunk and disorderly in public is a crime. So lets tax it.
In fact anyone even remotely happy should be fined.
Could be the only growth business left in the UK by Autumn.
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I agree with Hugh Barnard, we have to find a way to include young people in modern social life.
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As an american who has lived in London for 7 years, the problem of drink in the UK seems to be inexorably connected to the inability of you English to engage in social discourse when sober. The problem won't go away if the prices are raised, pubs are fined, alcohol makers punished. It is rooted in your character. Maybe children should be taught how to communicate at a younger age, say what they feel, speak in a more direct fashion? It is likely too late for the older generation.
I think this argument is closer than many others to being something like what's actually going on. How many people are too repressed and/or socially inept to have a good time without alcohol? How many can't conceive of having fun without booze involved? Too many of us, I suspect. Time for re-education, definitely.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
So let me understand this latest wheeze from the government. Despite everyone telling them that 24hr drinking would make a bad situation worse they went ahead with a we know best attitude. Now that the proof is surfacing that they were wrong all along they are now blaming the drinks manufacturers for being responsible. They say that drinks are too cheap well on that basis if we doubled the price of fuel would we have less speeding. Common sense says that the majority who abide by the law should not be penalised for the minority who don't , so why not enforce the present laws with vigour. I'm sure that once a few £1,000 fines are enforced the drunk in public problem will abate.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Well, it's not the way I live personally, getting drunk/plastered/legless; admittedly there are people who don't think they've had a good night out if they can remember it the following morning and it is them who are going to come to grief. They may have to find it out for themselves, but I could not be found in a pub from Monday to Friday, nor Saturday, or Sunday. I have something which I consider much more interesting and healthy; so, yes, there are loads and loads of people who drink to excess but so long as I keep out of their way......
IllustriousFrisby
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I'm sorry, why has my innocuous post been referred to the moderators?
This is ridiculous!
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I haven't got a drinking problem - I drink and then I fall over, it's no problem at all really!
Seriously though I count myself very lucky that I don't need to drink and dance like a lot of people apparently do. I dance a lot in Bristol and do le rock, rock n roll, cajun etc., and am able to go out, buy 1 pint of beer shandy and then I am on water or orange squash for the rest of the night. I am well known for dancing all night and don't need t booze to be able to have fun and make a fool of myself. What does annoy me though is that some venues charge even for tap water and orange squash and other soft drinks. They should help people like me who choose and are
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I haven't got a drinking problem - I drink and then I fall over, it's no problem at all really!
Seriously though I count myself very lucky that I don't need to drink and dance like a lot of people apparently do. I dance a lot in Bristol and do le roc, rock n roll, cajun etc., and am able to go out, buy 1 pint of beer shandy and then I am on water/orange squash for the rest of the night. I am well known for dancing all night and don't need the booze to be able to have fun and make a fool of myself. What does annoy me though is that some venues charge even for tap water and orange squash and other soft drinks. They should help and encourage people like me who choose and are happy not to drink and drive and not penalise us for doing so. Some pubs, clubs and shops are also making things worse by encouraging a lot of drinking by keeping their prices low and trying to attract the younger people to drink vast quantities.
I was breathalysed a few weeks ago by police carrying out a spot check and obviously it was clear. I am really glad, as I told them, that they are out and about checking on people and taking those who drink and drive off the road.
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please ignore previous comment, the one I ended too soon, pressed the wrong butttons again....
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Why, when I report another post, is it not immediately removed?
My post, within seconds, was removed....I notice a slight discrepancy here...is it the usual BBC censorship on HMG say-so?
If not, please re-instate my comment!
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Perhaps you'd care to expand on what other factors you can refer one's comment to a moderator?
I haven't found the button yet to get someone else's comment removed immediately!!!
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"I'm sorry, why has my innocuous post been referred to the moderators?
This is ridiculous!"
Rather than posting this, why don't you send me an email outlining why my post is "being moderated"?
Or is it because your rules of censorship are as abitrary as those of Stalin?
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What is really irritating about this story is that it is so typical of so much government activity. what you need to control alcohol abuse is a licensing system. People shopuild not be able to sell alcohol unless they have proved that they are fit and proper persons, and don't sell alcohol to minors, or topeople who are already drunk. The sanction if they do this is that they lose their licence. Police should have powers to arrest people who are drunk in a public place or behaving in a way likely to cause a breach of the peace. ALL THESE LAWS WE ALREADY HAVE. So what is suggested as a solutiont widespread drunkenness and under-age troublemakers fuelled by drink? more laws. NO! What we need to do is enforce the laws we've got.
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If commenting on the fact that cannabis is illegal and that people still indulge in it is in "contravention of house rules"...
may I suggest to you that your house rules need reforming? Are we not, then, to discuss things that are currently illegal? This sounds a bit Stalinist (not surprised given the fact you're a state propaganda machine).
I think most sensible people here would appreciate the discussion, rather than surpressing it under highly dubious grounds!
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PS if "Happy Hours" are banned, people will just revert to the behaviour pubs and clubs introduced happy hours to compete with: they wil stay at home for the first part of the evening, getting drunk on cheaper supermarket alcohol, before hitting the more expensive pubs and clubs later. They will be paying even less for their booze. they will be causing trouble on their way out as well as on their way home. don't these legislators have any experience of real life?
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So, promoting cannabis is off limits. But promoting alcohol, the bane of British people's lives, is OK.
Time for a rescindment of the TV licence fee I feel.
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The current crisis with excess alcohol consumption is also the fault of governments, past and present, and the police.
It is well documented that the present administration has caused many of the problems by liberalising licensing hours in the misguided belief that we would turn into continental style drinkers. However, the previous goverment were also at fault for breaking up the old " tied trade system". This was anaethma to the Thatcher government because it was seen as restrictive and anti-competitive. Thousands of pubs were sold by the " big boys" to their friends who set up pub cos, who sold them at a hefty profit back to the " big boys a few years later. The " big boys" were called something different but essentially were run by the same people. These major pub cos had massive buying power and so the brewers discounted their prices with the resultant cheap prices that we see today.
With regards to the police, they have had the powers to stop licensees servicing under 18s and drunks, the law hasn' t changed for a hunderd years. For some reason, police seem reluctant to use their powers. Their officers would spend a lot less time cleaning up the effects of binge drinking if they prosecuted rogue licensees with the threat of premises being permanently closed.
There is no need for new legislation but repeal of the laws that have caused these problems and letters to Chief Constables to remind them of their duty to the public.
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Why do people think you can turn the UK from a "quick get it down you before 11pm!" society to a more relaxed on in a couple of years when the previous draconian licensing law have been in place for 80+ years?
Cultural shifts take time.
Of course the general utter lack of respect of others and the law in UK society doesn't much help, but really alcohol can't be blamed for that.
I don't drink btw, and haven't for 8 years, and have seen all the possible drunken behaviour whilst out and sober, but I still understand that purely blaming availability or cost of alcohol is just plain daft.
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Why is it always the supermarkets who are getting attacked? - I am sure that most of the people who buy their special offers are not the ones that end up in hospital.
I go abroad frequently for long periods and don't drink any more or less even though the drink is a lot cheaper.
I would also like to know the age of the people who end up in hospital. Are they middle-aged (the wine customers of the supermarkets) or are they young people who get drunk in clubs etc?
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You can make statistics say whatever you like, there's more to the problem than is being made out here. It's a numbers game: we have a larger population which effects that number, we have a huge influx of people from nations which have more of an alcohol based culture than we do, we have the police going around with their hands tied by the courts (tread lightly son, seems to be the order of the day) when offenders do eventually get to court, it's a slap on the wrist, never mind the poor sod who got battered and finished up as one of your 'hospital statistics' or worse and hadn't even had a drink. that of course is also considered to be alcohol related for the statistics. i believe there's a lot more than meets the eye with this one. we've been hearing for years how governments have been going to address this problem and what have we got? nowt!
Carry on number 1'
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I am Italian and I have honestly been horrified from the local drinking customs. The poor weather and your Friday and Saturday nights are the only thing I do not love of this otherwise marvelous country. My solution to this problem is altogether easy: whoever shows any health damage due to alcohol, cigarettes and or junk food should be deprived of their NHS assistance or pay the right amount to have it back. Easy. If you want your booze or your 20-a-day or your obese BY CHOICE you are out. It's a choice.
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I have been out quite a few times recently and the people who weren't legless outnumbered those who were by 10000:1 at least :) I assume it is the same people who can't hold their drink and I suppose they are below a certain age. As for health problems, I have a copy of The Times from 1927 that advertises cures for those who have 'problems of the liver' caused by excessive imbibing of alcohol during years living in India and such places. mmmmmm perhaps we have short memories. I know plenty of people of elder years who died of liver disease in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and in this decade. I bet the cause of death wasn't recorded in the statistics as being due to alcohol! Finally, banning smoking has made a trip to the pub a pleasure for me after years of eye-aggravating pollution so I have no issues with that. Oh, and change the age from 18 to 21 for legal drinking.
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I don't think the alcohol intake in Britain is really very different from the expected value given our latitude. The situation certainly could be better, but being lectured by politicians because they don't have any ideas for effecting improvement is just insulting.
Drinking alcohol can certainly ruin lives, but equally if your life seems rubbish, you're likely to drink more. Obviously this doesn't mean that everyone who drinks is depressed, but surely we should be wondering why life seems boring to so many people?
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There are two problems which are linked but separate.
1. We drink too much alcohol. True, though we drink less than most of Europe. This causes the NHS problems but doesn't cause society a big problem.
2. We binge drink, just about more than anyone. And this blog is the first to really identify the cause: Being drunk is cool, whereas in Italy and Spain, its stupid and irresponsible (and for a woman, shameful).
So how do we make being drunk uncool?
They made smoking and drink driving uncool, but its a long process.
For starters, how about wine and beer tasting lessons in school?
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Those comparing we Northern Europeans unfavourably to the laid-back Continentals miss an important point, which of course is our hostile climate. In France, Spain, Italy and all the rest, it's not uncommon to be able to sit under a parasol outside a wine bar in September having a relaxed eating / drinking session. Try doing that in Sweden, Germany, Iceland or here (in fact, try doing it in June for the last couple of years; it would certainly dilute the liquor!). Far from chilling outside some pavement bistro, drinking with a meal means going to a 'proper' restaurant complete with surly staff and feloniously small / poor quality portions, so it's not difficult to see why drinking tends to be the indoor social activity of choice in this country.
Add to that a notoriously reserved, frosty culture of social interaction where people seem to need huge quantities of booze merely to strike up a conversation with a member of the opposite sex, our apparent willingness to be treated like slaves by workplace bullies in a country where political representation is a fading memory, where young people have few prospects besides terrifying levels of debt and wage slavery and where everything is eye-wateringly expensive, and you're a long way to understanding the British love affair with heavy drinking.
As others have pointed out, we already have laws capable of dealing with the issues - they just need to be better enforced. I've been going out to pubs and clubs on weekends for the last decade or so and neither I nor any member of my circle ahas ever felt the slightest need to attack anyone, get lippy with the police, damage street furniture or any of the rest whilst under the influence. Certainly we get drunk, but the vast majority of young British people are not, by and large, troublemakers. Those who are are usually so even without the alcohol - after all, booze merely amplifies a person's current state of mind, and a violent Chav with a propensity to self-destruction will be a menace to society irrespective of whether they drink - the issue is more one of degree.
As with the obesity epi-panic the health arguments are a smokescreen, since not enough is yet known about the long-term effects of non-dependent alcohol use to adequately assess the potential risks. I've lost count of the number of times red wine has been condemned as bad for you only to be reprieved as a potential lifegiver just months later. As for the statistics, it amazes me how many 'think-tanks' and 'concern' groups we now have in the UK, all generating wildly varying figures which somehow always conveniently support their point of view. Another parallel with the manufacture of the obesity panic is in the definition of a 'binge' - so ludicrously low as to ensure that almost everyone falls foul. Who benefits from pathologising ordinary people? I don't believe for a minute that 800,000 assorted tumours and other health problems are caused by alcohol, particularly as last year we were being told they were caused by being too fat, and the year before that they were attributed to smoking.
And ultimately, whether the hand-wringers decide 'action' is warranted or not, I'm almost certain that tighter regulation and prohibition would prove ineffective. As others have pointed out, targeting the licensed 'on' trade has simply displaced drinking to unsupervised private homes; curbs on cheap alcohol in supermarkets would result in potentially dangerous home brewing or even informal 'speakeasies' but would be unlikely to reduce the overall level of drinking (for the same reason that sales of rolling papers and tobacco have increased in direct proportion to rises in the price of pre-packed cigarettes). Amongst the young, illegal drugs would lose their remaining stigma and become an easily obtained substitute for a 4-pack. People will always get round restrictive legislation, particularly that which has no real public support.
Ministry of Unintended Consequences anyone?
'Personal responsibility' - which includes the option of not following health advice should one choose - is something of a buzzword across the political spectrum right now, but it would be refreshing if the powers-that-be were to ease up and allow us to actually exercise some.
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Surely one of the questions we should ask is: why are people (and more specifically, young people...) drinking in the first place..? Although drinking has never been advocated openly, it's never been as heavily discouraged as, say, cigarettes or hard drugs. Even in schools, where so many children learn about the dangers of smoking, and are shown graphic evidence to the fact, 'alcohol' is treated as a subject for chemistry, or school trips - where teachers unashamedly take advantage of channel crossings to Calais to fill up on booze. Is this really the best example for our 'children'..? who seem to grow up so fast these days. The youth of today are protected from reality and responsibility, yet at the other extreme, they become the scape-goats and fall-guys for those institutional weaknesses when they become wayward...
With so many parents drinking to escape the stresses of work, and youths drinking to escape to boredom of unemployment and inactivity, is it really a surprise ours is a drunk nation? There is depression across the board, not just because of the weather. Humans crave activity and excitement. Alcohol has become a short-lived thrill but we also use it as a way to forget a boring life.
Many young people 'live for today' and not for tomorrow, which has both good and bad aspects for society as a whole. But the youth of today will, if they live long enough, grow up to be the adults of tomorrow and that is what we should be worrying about. The future. Putting up taxes is an automated 'easy' economic 'solution', it will not solve an increasing social problem. If you take the leaves off a dandylion, it looks gone, but the root is still there and only hard sweat and digging is going to get it out.
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One thing that no-one seems to be commenting on is that not only have the measures been rising but so has the strength of the beer. When I first started going to pubs over 20 years ago it always seemed possible to find something about the 3.5%abv range to have as a session beer you could drink all evening without getting too hammered. If nothing else because the capacity of the bladder made regular pauses necessary. These days the weakest ale on offer is generally about 4.8% or higher.
The same seems to be going on for wine. Checking the wine boxes in my local supermarket for something to keep in the fridge for a glass in the evening to wind down with I've found it harder and harder to get something in the 7-9% range. Most is 11.5% or higher.
I wonder how many people are getting caught out by the fact that they think they're drinking the same that they have for years without realizing that they are not only getting served more but also stronger drinks.
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A few of us have been banging on about the rank hypocrisy there is surrounding alcohol.
Whilst smokers have been demonised and stigmatised,drinking in "moderation" has always been acceptable - stories of drunkenness are boasted about and laughed at in offices and shop-floors daily.
Yet those who smoke in "moderation" never cause road accidents, never get involved in fights, never go home and beat up their wives, never sleep with someone coz they "had a cig too many".
Time to stigmatise drunkenness in the same way we have done smoking.
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I am at a loss as we still have not learnt here in the UK how to actually deal with alcohol.........
I am 40 yrs old and on average I drink on Friday evening and with my meal on a Sunday - total of around 6 pints a week.
I have 3 sons, my eldest is 18, and I have a 16 yr old and 14 yr old.
My sons have been able to drink since they were 10 yrs old, we made it available to them at meal times on a Sunday if they wished to have a drink. We did it by advising them of what it was and what the impacts were. We have meals together every evening and are a close family. All of my sons plan to join the Navy.
My eldest now goes out regularly with his friends on a Friday evening and has no more than 2 pints, my middle son occasionally has a drink, sometimes at Christmas and special occasions and my youngest think it tastes awful and would prefer cola.
As parents we educated our children to respect alcohol and that?s what we are missing in our society today.
Friends of ours banned their son from going near alcohol and he drinks heavily on a Friday and Saturday evening since he turned 18, because it is new to him.
But not only that we promote a drinking culture on our TV. The primary place where anything happens in TV soap opera's is the pub...... What message does this convey to our kids? We promote that alcohol is a great thing and partying is fantastic through TV.
You do not see this on European TV.
It is not the drinking companies which need to be penalised but we need to educate parents and their kids and stop allowing TV to promote the pub as the best place to be on the planet........ Get responsible respect for alcohol during meal times.
Wake up UK! When you think about it the root cause is pub promotion on TV........
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Moves to further restrict our freedoms by clamping down unnecessarily on alcohol consumption make me sick.
Sure, living a life of monastic self-denial is probably great for our health and brilliant for the NHS budget. It's also tedious beyond endurance for most people.
We deserve the right to enjoy ourselves!!!
Labour seem to be trying to lose the next election by a record margin. They are such puritanical idiots I imagine they'll make cancelling Chirstmas a central pledge in their next manifesto.
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On the 1st of July, the results of a survey on necessities v. luxuries was posted in this blog in which it was concluded that Britons consider alcohol a necessity.
With this attitude, blaming the producers and sellers is totally pointless. Before you can solve the drink problem, first you need to make people understand that attitude is part of the problem.
Once upon a time, you went to the pub to enjoy a couple of drinks and the company of your mates. As part of a happy evening out, you might occasionally have a little too much, but that was not the norm, and certainly not the goal of the evening.
When and why did the attitude change to one in which drinking to the point of stupor is a goal itself? And why are we so willing to allow this to pass as socially acceptable?
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"Britain has a drink problem"
No. Some people in Britain have a drink problem, just as some people in Britain have a drug problem, an anger problem, money problems, love problems etc etc.
And yet more regulation is no more the solution to people's drink problems than they are to any of their other personal problems.
A lesson which our politicians seem unable or unwilling to learn.
Julius
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I admit to loving a drink or four, but have never enjoyed doing so in townie bars on a weekend night, because publicans don't enforce the existing laws. If they would, they'd get more custom, from those of us afraid to risk the company of shouty, pushy, aggressive hooligans who get worse as the night goes on. It makes me ashamed when I go abroad and see how much nicer people are there in the same circumstances.
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Meanwhile Enterprise Inns reports falling beer sales, and has revealed it's already spent 3.5 million on trying to prop up failing pubs and is anticipating spending another 4.5 million on that.
"Across the sector, whilst food sales are growing, on-trade beer sales continue to be subdued, with industry sources suggesting close to DOUBLE-DIGIT volume declines in the period from April to June"
From the BBC itself: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7520324.stm
Further pointing out the problem isn't the bars themselves.
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If people want to get plastered that's fine as long as they then pay for:
1) Any medical treatment they require as a result.
2) Any damage they cause to property or people.
Obviously if you can't pay there would be some suitable forfeit, such as being deported to the Gobi desert with 20 bottles or poisonous home-brewed vodka.
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I enjoy beer, both real ale and craft beers from countries such as Belgium, the US and the Czech Republic; there is a rich culture surrounding beer (and I am not talking cheap lager) and the best pubs promote conviviality and sociability. I drink beer with food, enjoy a glass of two in my local pub and wish that more was said about the more positive side of drinking beer. But it?s not a news story, it?s also not a convenient truth ? we need demons, we need blame for people?s faults, it?s almost as if we need a rolling 24-hour culture of fear and alcohol is currently that. I hate seeing young lads (and women) necking down cheap lager and cider and alcopops and then fighting breaking out, where is the education about the great traditions of beer, wine, cider, single malts? Silly me, it?s probably too posh, too elitist, too easy ? maybe the truth is that some people cannot hold their drinkl and maybe a form of social licensing would be better than this catch-all, moralising net of finger-wagging.
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This all seems rather rich coming from a government that makes millions if not billions in revenue from alcohol and tobacco.
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They want to stop hitting the pubs. The problem is the price of booze in the supermarkets.
A lot of people on the streets drinking and at home get their drink from shops not pubs.
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I agree with Comment number 4 from Mr T: the meddling nanny state we have had for years does more to drive people to drink than anything else, and has no idea on anything except raising taxes and making everyone's life in this country worse. Booze is as much their friend in keeping everyone dulled to the pain as it is their little hobby horse for pretending to try and make us all live better lives.
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No
We have a totalitarian government problem
Terrorism and bird flu analogies completely miss the mark. Comparing choosing to drink vs choosing to murder people is ridiculous, as is choosing to drink vs involuntarily catching a disease.
The BBC should stop breaking its impartiality rules on this subject!
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"whoever shows any health damage due to alcohol, cigarettes and or junk food should be deprived of their NHS assistance or pay the right amount to have it back"
You are clearly ignorant of the fact that the NHS is heavily funded by taxes on smoking/drinking/junk food.
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"with a cost to the NHS of £2.7bn".
How come you're happy to parrot the Government's line on the costs of alcohol to the country without simultaneously mentioning the amount of money which the Government raises from alcohol duties and taxes?
For the record, 5 seconds' search found that in 2006-7, spirit duties were £2.2bn, wine duties for £2.4bn, and beer and cider duties were £3.3bn. Throw in a bit for VAT on those sales and that's about £8bn raised from alcohol, or pretty much three times its "cost" to the NHS.
So ... how many nurses and teachers does Gordon Brown plan to sack if we start drinking less? (After all, that's always his first question when the Tories say anything that involves collecting less tax!)
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I was allowed to drink from a very early age, but I did rarely. I decided not to bother again at age fourteen, and seven years later I haven't since then. I didn't like what alcohol could do to people [at that age I was into lots of bands which had members who were alcoholics] and I didn't see the point of it. I'd never 'needed it to relax' as a kid, so why should I as an adult?
Aha. Many, many people start drinking as a social lubricant [so to speak] and then continue when they're nicely buzzed because at that point the alcohol is affecting their reasoning and they see no reason to stop. They need it in the first place because they're worried about what other people think of them. Personally, if I look like an idiot when I dance, so be it. If a stranger thinks I'm odd, so what? I have no problem sticking out from the crowd, but most people will do anything to stay firmly ensconced in the middle of it.
And if they do something stupid and make a fool of themselves while drinking, if anyone remembers it later all they need to say is, "Oh, I was so drunk," and it's forgiven. I'd be much more embarrassed about allowing myself to get to that level of inebriation, where I couldn't control my own actions, than doing the stupid thing of my own volition.
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For the love of god, it should not matter when did we become so obidiant, all ideas of libery and freedom are gone, i am affraid we all know alcohol is bad for us nobdythings i am going to go out friday night and get blind drunk because its good for us we do it through choice if we can make the choice more informed then fine, but at the end of the day it is our desision what to drink and how much to drink and a change in the law will not help and is not wanted in my opinion by many. and after all is that not what the goverment are their for to represent our views.
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Brits with a drinking problem? Nah, can't be. Maybe a nip of the sherry or a wee bit too much gin now and again but that's all.
Actually, one look at PMQT and you know that the only difference beween those in the British House of Commons and soccer hooligans rioting in the streets after a match are the suits and ties.
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Honestly the only way to solve this and other pressing problems is through Direct Democracy. Representational democracy has left all of us feeling unimportant and as charges of the elites.
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There has always been a culture of over-drinking in the UK, literally for centuries. It's ingrained in the culture of the country and will never change. You can never reduce demand for alcohol, so the only thng you can do is to restrict supply.
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You claim that studies show 4/10 of us to be "hazardous" drinkers - on what is this based?
Is it, perchance the same safe drink levels that the government basically pulled out of thin air to try and appear to be doing something a few years back.
One of the main reasons that we have a problem with binge drinking is that drinking four pints in a night is classified as binge-drinking. Some stella-fuelled yob in the city centre is lumped into the same category as my retired mum doing the Sunday night quiz at her local.
Please knock off the lazy government mouthpiece act - we pay your wages, not them.
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I had an idea about a year ago that I see has been touted for tobacco products - basically ban 'brands'.
That means no advertising of any sort for alcoholic products and standardised packaging.
This would have the effect of letting people decide for themselves what they actually want to drink. They might consider what the like the taste of and what they can afford.
Alcohol is a drug that has harmful effects on the human body - it is not a fashion accessory!
Take a minute and see if you can think of any reason why this wouldn't be a good thing. Most of the big brand beers are pretty poor quality anyway.
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It's not a problem with kids not having anywhere to go.
When I was 16, many, many years ago, it was the 'cool' thing to go to pubs and get served - even in school uniform.
Even cooler was to drink until you were drunk.
At 20, things had not changed. As I had moved 'up north' the really cool thing was to have a table full of empty pint glasses. It was like a game. It's all good 'fun', isn't it? And the day after you can talk about how bad you feel and have a really good laugh.
It's a culture thing. It seems to affect most of Northern Europe.
But don't be fooled into thinking that Southern Europe is that much better. In Italy, where I now live, many people are concerned about the young people who drink too much and, I must admit, I see more drunk people here than I used to. No fighting or brawling though, for which I am grateful.
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Another hopeless dive for a headline by these dreadful politicians.
Let's get this straight - drink in itself is not the problem - it is idiots intent on getting smashed and then going out to smash others that are the problem.
However, Brown and his band of dimwits will look for a target that's easy to reach in order that they are seen to be doing something and that something is to probably price drink higher, end discounts in supermarkets and bring an end to happy hours.
Great. In other words it's the decent, reasonable folks who fancy a drink after work or buy beer from Tesco who will be hit in the wallet by these misguided plans.
In the meantime, Wayne, Shane, Sharon and Cheryl will still be swigging booze bought under the counter or nicked from Mum and Dad's stash up in the bus shelters.
Ergo - problem still with us even after many months of Govt. handwringing and knee-jerk "new laws "
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Forgive me if I am wrong but aren't there a number of heavily subsidided bars in the houses of parliament?
Obviously no fears about binge drinking or cheap alchohol where MP's are concerned. It is yet another example of our political 'masters' demonstrating their morale superiority over the electrorate.
With the current 'credit cunch', house repossessments and rising enemployment are the 'biggest' issues that the government have to worry about?
The British are a nation of drinkers and the pub was the focal point of many communities. It is part of our culture.
There are plenty of laws to deal with effects of excess alchohol so lets enforce them.
As for the health effects, it is time the government allowed people to make there own choices on what they should and shouldn't do to their bodies. The truth is that the revenue taken from alchohol is greater than the cost to the NHS service.
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The government created the problem.
First they ban smoking making sure that a large part of the population have nowhere inside to drink and be comfortable.
Now they are complaining that we are drinking too much, it's because their are no social or moral limits to the behaviour or how drunk you can get.
When we went into a pub there are measures for drink, too much to drink you were refused, or asked to leave, any bother you could be thrown out.
No one wanted that shame.
Now they drink at home (or on street corners for the young), they go to clubs drunk.
Adult smokers are staying at home, drinking (far more than they should) with friends and neighbours, a problem that will cost us all in years to come, and the youth will follow this lead.
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On taxing supermarkets-
When not going out at the weekend people I know enjoy to watch a DVD and such sometimes inviting friends round often drink a few cans. God forbid with credit crunch we should not have pay though the nose for a drink at the supermarket for lest we be binge drink a get a little merry.
Could I suggest that mostly those who suggest higher pricing for alcohol in supermarkets are of the affluence to have such a move never effect any alchhol purchase they care to make.
As for not serving anyone who appears 'drunk', most bar men won't serve to those who are palatic so does this mean not serving those who are bit 'merry' or sqiffy'?. Come on, very wrong idea in my opinion.
Im losing my job soon due to the credit crunch and will have move from my home to temporarly live with my parents as cannot afford the rent.
Im losing a lot.
If the govenement continue to marginilise the very people who brought them to power during these hard times in two to three terms tops the same peoplw will vote them out.
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A few months ago the government were talking about "cultural entitlement" for young people. Given that a lot of the above comments seem to agree that this is a cultural problem, should we be calling for drink (and food) appreciation lessons? I can't help feeling that it's less likely you will want to binge on good beer/wine/spirits than the rubbish sold in a lot of town pubs. (Have you tasted Aftershock?)
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Perhaps the saddest thing about this discussion is that it reveals the extent to which priggishness is now considered socially acceptable. There are laws in place for people who break them with regard to drink, drunkenness and unacceptable behaviour - these simply need to be enforced. Unfortunately because this does not occur people feel they have a right to preach about the personal behaviour and habits of others. Peple have been drinking in pubs in England since long before the Canterbury Tales were written. It is a shame that this part of our culture and heritage is under threat because of the whining of hysterical health fascists. I would rather speak to a slightly intoxicated yet otherwise affable person than a prig, drunk or sober.
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Also the majority of people of all ages who drink dont go on like the city centre yobs or drunkren under age kids seen in those programs with CCTV footage, most agree leave the majority alone and seriously punish this minority HARD.
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It would be really nice to cut the rather sad strawman rhetoric and look at some real problems.
Firstly the government is living in cloud cuckoo land with its ideas of what a "responsible drinker" is. No more than 4 units in one day? Be serious - that means having two pints of beer makes me "irresponsible".
We already have numerous laws in place covering everything from serving alcohol to someone who is drunk, selling alcohol to someone aged under 18, buying alcohol for someone aged under 18, being drunk and disorderly, and the range of crimes committed using intoxication as a convenient excuse.
The trouble with any new laws is that they will almost invariably hit the wrong target. I've had my share of evenings on the sauce where I've been a bit unsteady on my feet heading home. But despite being a little inebriated I don't get into fights, I don't vandalise property and I don't behave antisocially.
We already have laws to penalise the drunken thugs that plague our cities but the police appear disinterested in enforcing them. We don't need new laws which will do little other than criminalise the middle classes who wish to have a few drinks and then return home peacefully.
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Clearly the BBC has a drink problem if Jane Garvey can reminisce thusly about Labour's 1997 election win:
"I do remember... the corridors of Broadcasting House were strewn with empty champagne bottles. I'll always remember that".
Or is drinking too much only frowned upon when you're the one paying for it?
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"We already have laws to penalise the drunken thugs that plague our cities but the police appear disinterested in enforcing them."
I know what you mean, but two points arise:
(1) They are uninterested rather than disinterested.
(2) The police's ability to intervene in such matters appears to have been weakened by the current Health and Safety culture. This is not the fault of the police but of government.
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One last thing RE my one comments Im 29 I have a lot of friends from early to late 20 and are all working/lower middle class, all like a drink, get a bit merry on given weekend and non go like yobs. This is not about punishing the middle classes it about punishing the inocent majority.
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"This is not about punishing the middle classes it about punishing the inocent majority. "
Yes, that's it exactly. In precisely the same way that smokers are now forced to stand outside pubs in the wintertime. How is this healthy? Surely a ludicrously Spartan punishment?
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Its another revenue-raising scheme by this bankrupt government. Price is a totally unfair mechanism to reduce alcohol consumption. Its not only the poor who get smashed. Many not-so-poor public schoolboys get regularly smashed and would a higher price have stopped Charles Kennedy??? The Governments message on this is the rich can get drunk, the poor cannot!
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The choices for escape are imbibe or emigrate. Imbibing is easier but its effects wear off quickly and you need another and another an another. Perahps the British would do better to turn to drugs. That would make drunkenness seem less forbidding.
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This cannot be solved just by limiting the availability of alcohol. It's about attitudes. In mainland Europe alcohol is cheap and freely available but the problem of drunkenness is not such an issue because attitudes to drinking are so different. In Europe alcohol is something mundane and everyday to be enjoyed in moderation. There is nothing the Government and increased industry regulation can do create a similarly healthy attitude towards alcohol here in Britain. Constantly referring to alcohol as the 'demon drink' is certainly not going to help, it merely makes alcohol seem more taboo and subsequently, more enticing.
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Contrary to what a lot of posters have said - raising the prices and limiting sales does work.
Its working in the UK at the moment actually. The Scottish Government is running trials for potential policies like off-liceneces are not allowed to sell to U21s.
Crime and anti-social behavihour has been dramitcally cut in these areas.
Its not rocket science - raise the price and reduce the supply....
The only people that are against it are those that it will effect. Like the very very successful smoking ban.
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But surely if we aren?t doped up on drink, drugs and television we might start asking long and difficult questions like: ?why do a few political puppets continue to work predominantly for commercial interests to make brutalised, target-driven life in the UK so hopeless, stressful and miserable for the majority they so woefully fail to represent??
Work Hard + Live Hard = Happy Hour + Unreliable Employees + Hard Livers
Hard Problem + Politicians = Soft Option + Tax
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This is another storm in a tea cup cooked up by Nu Labour health extremists. They're answer to everything is more tax and more control which results in more oppression, lower standards of living and nothing achieved whatsoever.
The question Labour never answers is who is driving your policies?
The drove us into the EEC without a referendum, renaging on their manifesto, and without a citizen getting a word in edge-ways.
The drove through the smoking ban, renaging on their manifesto, without citizens getting a word in (despite 70% being against tghe all-out ban).
The drove us into climate change based on only 54 scientists signing off the UN's IPCC document despite 30,000 scientists against this junk science in The Oregon Petition.
And now they've got the wrong end of the stick bullying publicans again (2,000 already bankrupt from the smoking ban) who've seen their alcahol sales decline while retail sales increase as smokers stay and drink at home.
Taxing won't change a thing. In fact the duty of alcahol is a disgrace, like petrol and CO2, and should all be reduced to VAT of 17.5% - anything higher is just a Chancellor that can't balance his books by controlling public finances.
In short Nu Labour have got it wrong yet again. People are fed up to the kneck with these creeps running Govt for extremist minority interest groups. Election day couldn't come soon enough
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Unfortunately this is just the tip of the iceberg, and stems from an understanding of the do's and don'ts not being instilled at an early age on how to behave in the various situations that life can present you. In a nutshell, a lack of parenting skills from the previous generation are now impacting on the behaviour of this generation. Children will only emulate what they have seen at home, and the children of yesterday have passed on their social ineptitude to their children of today.
I left the UK in 1983 and have lived and worked in some strange places in the world. But in none have I seen behaviour from the local population that equates to the loutish, drunken behaviour that is currently exemplified by the minority of UK citizens both at home and abroad.
Believe me I am no angel, and was considered a wild child myself in the 70's. Yes I can go and get "plastered" myself at times. But see me lying in a drunken heap in the street - Never. I guess I learnt from my youthful mistakes and ended up coming to grips with the fact that what my parents had taught me wasn't actually that far off the mark. There is a time and place for everything, but the time and place for self-respect is all day and every day. I have 2 21 year old daughters who can also be wild at times, but one thing they understand is how to respect themselves, and where to draw a line.
Raising taxes on drink, or trying to ban happy hours is not an answer. Educating parents on how to behave in front of their young children, and the behaviour expected from children as the pass through the wringer into adulthood is.
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I am a Brit who now lives in Sweden, a country with stringent drink laws. You can't just buy drink at a whim - in a petrol station or in a supermarket. You must go to a state shop which has limited opening times and is not open after 6 or 7pm in the evening and shut on Sundays. So no " I am desperate for a bottle of white wine when I get home from work". You really appreciate the availability of alcohol in the UK. Swedes drink when they get together but do not gulp back their wine or booze. They have drinking songs and sing between rounds. In essence they take longer to drink than Brits tend to. I am considered a fast drinker by them (although I stop earlier) but compared with younger Brits I can only drink half as fast. Alcohol is a lovely substance if used carefully. I am ashamed of the booze culture in Britain and the big health costs involved. Do we have to bring in a Swedish style system to curb the binge drinking? I hope not. But the government does need to act. Britain is still seen as a place of civility and afternoon tea by the Swedes. I feel that I know differently having lived there until Nov 2007 and seen the hordes of youths brawling in the streets of our cities and seaside resorts.
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I wish people would stop associating booze with "happiness" and drinking to "escape problems/drowning sorrows"
It is a complete misconception to think alcohol helps in any way.
After years of clinical anxiety and depression related illness, which were treated with various drug concoctions, I was diagnosed three years ago as having liver diseases - cirrhosis.
I quit drinking immediately and was advised that years of technical "binge drinking" had caused my illness, I was not diagnosed as alcoholic: Sustained drinking over the limits had caused my problems.
The ultimate irony being that since I quit drinking I have not suffered any boughts of depression and the anxiety/panic attacks have vanished. Alcohol appears to have been the soul cause. People need to understand the depressant features of alcohol.
I'll need a liver transplant eventually, to survive.
There is nothing "merry" about alcohol. I wish this direct link was reported more in the media and by the government.
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Quote:
"Educating parents on how to behave in front of their young children, and the behaviour expected from children as the pass through the wringer into adulthood is."
Unquote.
Never a truer word was said! I worked on the reception desk in a 'dole' office from the mid eighties to the early nineties. I was astounded at the way some parents treated their young children. In particular, one mother whose seven year old child, had climbed up on a desk; unleashed a torrent of abuse at him. Using the F word and even the C word, she dragged him off the counter while smacking him continously. Another tactic employed by parents was to leave their kids behind when told they wouldn't be getting any more money. With "I can't afford to look after them, you f'ing do it" being the retort. When we threatened to phone Social Services, some would just laugh at us and say they couldn't give an f.
Even way back then I remember wondering what was in store for us, when those mishandled children grew up. The kids didn't stand a chance with parents like that.
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Britain will never stop wanting to down its pints before 11pm because the vast majority of pubs still close between 10pm and 11pm.
It's all very well having 24hour drinking laws, but most people who go to nightclubs and more clubish pubs which close later will be there for heavy drinking amongst other things anyway.
The only way for people like me to drink more outside of the 11pm bar, is to buy alcohol from supermarkets and continue drinking at home with my friends, which is cheaper but less enjoyable.
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"should bottled lager really cost less than bottled water?" says Freddie (No. 15). Well - comparing Spain with Britain (again), 5 litres of bottled water here is less than 50p, and a reasonable bottle of wine less than £1.50. It's not just alcohol in Britain which involves profiteering, it's the water as well, and the water sellers don't have the excuse of government taxation.
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As a young, female, British expat living in Paris, I am often subject to that unfortunate stereotype of the Drunken English Girl, despite the fact that compared to most British girls, I drink very little indeed. Luckily, I'm half-French, and so, being often ashamed to admit my Britishness, or wanting to avoid those judgemental comments of "Oh là là, les anglaises!", it's not uncommon that I fail to admit my British heritage at all.
Everyone knows that the French love their wine, but that they are more refined in their habits, and prefer to balance their tipple with heated debates or dinner, rather than tipping off balance on heated patios before throwing UP their dinner, as is the wont of many a British youth.
I think the government can enforce laws and increase prices all they like, but they fail to realise that the solution lies, as for most social problems these days, in PARENTING. It's true that it's a vicious cycle; bad parenting leads to youth drinking, which leads to teenage pregnancies, which inevitabley leads to more bad parenting.
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I wonder what a total ban on alcohol, a so called prohibition would have on the recreational drugs trade / industry in this country. I wonder whether cocaine, MDMA amphetamines, heroin and ketamin might be replaced by alcohol in supply and use by the sectors of society that currently use and seek such consciousness altering illicit drugs. If history is anything to go by the criminal organisations would quickly adapt to supplying alcohol. More interesting for me though is how people?s demands would change and how this would affect the drugs market and society generally. Would alcohol replace the demand for the other drugs? I haven?t the foggiest whether it would or not but it would sure be an interesting social experiment. One however I doubt I will ever live to see the results of in this country due to if nothing else our economic dependence on the alcohol industry.
From a purely medical perspective I am hard pushed to come up with an objective argument that can stand up to scrutiny for why for instance cannabis is any worse socially or medically than alcohol both psychologically and physically. Cannabis increases you risk of developing Schizophrenia and increases your risk of lung cancer. It is also addictive and can lead to dependence. However so is alcohol.
Alcohol leads to equally as problematic social and emotional problems as cannabis. Instead of habitual use leading to lethargy it can lead to abusive social relationships, is well linked with violence and medically leads to direct and indirect destruction of brain cells. This leads to encephalitis from malnutrition in habitual use and the classic alcoholic gait known to many as the way your local tramp with a brown paper bag walks. Drinking in large quantities in pregnancy damages foetuses leading to foetal alcohol syndrome and the classically small headed babies. Then there are the medical problems that dramatically kill linked to liver damage that leads to portal hypertension and the classic oesophageal varicies that kill people in a dramatic manor with such people dying due to blood loss while vomiting masses of blood. And to add to that there is the connection with high levels of alcohol with a number of cancers. Though one can argue that alcohol has a beneficial effect on heart disease in small quantities, the so called French paradox, cannabis also is linked with some therapeutic benefit in certain medical conditions.
The key thing and the point I am trying to make is that alcohol is an addictive mind altering drug no different to any other. It even acts on the brain in a similar way as the sedatives benzodiazepines, another substance of abuse and drug sold on the black market. The difference with alcohol is that it is socially acceptable. What I would suggest is that either society?s way of thinking about cannabis as shown by our laws is flawed, or more controversially yet more logical is that our thinking about alcohol is flawed. The latter conclusion to my mind is the correct evaluation to make and is something society will eventually have to confront.
If society rejects the use of addictive and damaging drugs it will one day have to reject alcohol as well.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7594463.stm
This is further to my last post. Alcohol acts on the brain in a very similar way to these drugs, the difference is one binds to a receptor site directly and one indirectly to induce the same effect. In fact they are so similar that if taken together they can kill. That was fameously proven by the death of Marilyn Monroe.
Isn't it interesting don't you think that Diazepam is a controlled drug and alcohol is not!
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