Term limit lessons
It ill behoves us - writing here in the afterglow of a wonderfully inspiring election campaign - to sail too close to the jagged rocks that are the British political system. But here goes! In Virginia today (dampened by thunderstorms) voters are going to the polls again in a primary election to select the Democratic candidate for Governor in 2010. It's a competitive race in which any Virginian of any political party may vote. Wonderfully open and energising.
Now you have to be frank about it - without Terry McAuliffe there might have been less interest, indeed there hasn't been that much competition in the past. But still the system is geared up for an open honest fight if the candidates and the electorate want it.
So if for the sake of argument Esther Rantzen turns up in Giggleswick and demands to be on a big party ballot then the local folks - of all parties - get to choose. It gives localites control. It pushes party machines into the ditch.
But here is a further thought. The eventual winner of the race to be Virginia's next governor can only stay in the post for two terms. Term limits, which used to be a fashionable cause on the US right, are making a bit of a comeback and for reasons that British voters might recognise.
They can work in legislatures, and even in a parliamentary system in which the executive is based in the legislature it might still be possible to find a way - 12-year limits perhaps? - of getting new blood circulating constantly. But do they work? As ever there is a downside.
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gobbldegook isn't defined yet, but these are close:
1. Tosscar
An award given to someone who uses corporate crap speak.
A merging of the terms Tossar and Oscar.
Depending on the readers perspective it can be very positive or very negative.
To be a recipient the nominee must rise above the usual masses of "moving forwards" driven "company directions" and show that they can truly "get their ducks in a row" in order to ascertain the "underlying synergies that are waiting to be unleashed" thus "realising the enterprises true potential" in todays "diverse and discerning marketplace"
Whew!!!
He was awarded a Tosscar for his contribution to the dumbing down of English. He managed to do this by having all the delegates confused within ten seconds. He almost received a second Tosscar for managing to utter corporate speak for fifteen minutes straight without repeating anything. Such a true artist deserves a Tosscar
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I currently live in Virginia and our governors can only serve one term, not two. This makes things a little annoying; I think a 2 term limit is much more reasonable. On a side note, I voted around 4:15pm today and they told me that less than 300 people had voted in the precinct during the entire day; the primaries never generate too much interest (unless it's between 2 stars a la Hillary/Obama.)
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Virginia's governor used to have a one-term limit, so it seems they have increased the limit there, which I don't think counts as term limits "making a bit of a comeback."
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The biggest lesson in this race is that there are no guarantees in politics. McAuliffe, an experienced politician who enjoyed the support of Bill Clinton and the entire Democratic political machine, was defeated by Deeds, a newcomer. Hopefully the Dems will not under estimate the chances of the GOP nominee, not only because there are some formidable Republican politicians running, but because this particular race is already being seen as a referendum of President Obama's policies. Contrary to popular opinion, the GOP is not dead, all you have to look at is the huge welcome that Gov. Palin enjoyed in New York last week to realize that they are alive and well. They simply have to shun all the red meat garbage, find a message that resonates with the electorate, and find popular candidates to deliver their message.
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Who, pray tell is "writing here in the afterglow" of what "wonderfully inspiring election campaign"??? Certainly there haven't been any in America's rigged one-party/two-faces sham electoral system, outside of a few local elections, in many a moon. Both wings of the Duopoly Party are controlled by corporate-imperial interests. Term limits should be extended to Party limits! And in the interim, finance limits. Corporate Uncle Tom, Obama outspent rich white guy, McCain, so he bought the Oval Office this time around, and the same happens in every major election in the undemocratic U.S. of A. New blood, same old money-go-round, nothing can work to restore democracy in such a whoreish system.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Term limits are supported by voters across the political spectrum in the US, although I don't understand why. In California, it has institutionalized inexperience in the state legislature, and the incumbents are all looking for their next office for when they are termed out. Californians wanted to apply term limits to their members of Congress as well, but fortunately states do not have the power to do this.
Term limits for our president (two terms of four years) resulted from the fact that Franklin Roosevelt, a popular president and a wartime president at the end, was elected four times. Politicians of both parties resented being locked out of the competition for so long. Then FDR died in the first year of his fourth term. I think term limits are ok for the president, but it should have been three terms. If we elect someone who deserves a third term, why shouldn't we keep him (or her)?
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The term limis I want to see are for the entrenched members of Congress.
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Tennessee used to have a one-term limit, which was addressed for a period by having two governors, Clement and Ellington, simply trade the office off for successive terms. All the same political machine, so there was continuity, after a fashion.
Clement, tragically, ruined it all by driving drunk and wrapping his car around a tree, eternally removing himself from this vale of tears.
A two-term limit was adopted thereafter, which has seemed to work reasonably enough. What sane person would wish to hold the job for more than eight years, anyway?
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Actually, nothing works.
The only good thing that can be said about democracy and the politicians who
embody its machinery is that, over the long haul, it is better than the other
alternatives which have been tried.
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Creigh Deeds won a moderate this is a sign the far left in the Democratic party will be purged. America is moving back to the right.
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#11. toughdirtyjoe: "America is moving back to the right."
Wishing does not make it so.
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"The eventual winner of the race to be Virginia's next governor can only stay in the post for two terms."
According to the National Governors Association "In all states, except Virginia, governors in their first term may run for re-election."
A governor may not run for consecutive terms but may run again following the next incumbent - or later in life. Unless the Association is very wrong, which I doubt, Justin might have taken two minutes to Google this. I would have thought that, since he appears to have been present, someone locally would have informed him.
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ref #7
I can tell you why term limits are supported by some of us.
Incumbants have a major advantage especially at a local leval and it breeds arrogance.
Like most states Massachusetts is having major budget problems. but the legislature has two scams holiday for one county that are not observed in the rest of state and country.
They refused to cut pensions and they raise taxes and fees and pad their salaries.
When confronted they show contempt for the voters.
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Term limits would minimize the impact of having incompetents or misguided politicians in office, but it would also deprive us of the opportunity to keep highly skilled and pragmatic individuals in power.
The best approach is to educate the electorate by exposing the positives and negatives of each politician during their tenure.
In Florida, our governor and 2/3 of the legislature are Republican. Although our state budget deficit seems manageable when compared to California's it is, nevertheless, untenable for a state that depends largely on tourism, agriculture, and pensioners to remain afloat. Construction came to a halt about a year ago and has not recovered, there are virtually no manufacturing jobs in Florida, and after years of population increases, an exodus is becoming evident.
Instead of passing modest tax increases to balance the budget our heroes in Tallahasse did what they do best, they laid off teachers, closed schools, and reduced or eliminated services to the poor.
Rooting for the Magic and giving tax breaks to Disney may be good for Mickey Mouse and sports fans; I am among those that worry about the long term impact of an uneducated population and a society that refuses to help those that have been left behind.
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There are no term limits for United States Congress. OPEC takes advantage of tenure for their oil interest. Cartels rely on crooked politicians to do them favors. Congress bankrupted this country to the Saudis. A constitutional amendment should reduce the years a person may serve in the legislative branch of the federal government.
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I think term limits are a useful way to curb a politicians power although as we have seen with Putin in Russia and the Bushes/Clintons in the US politicians will try to find ways to bend the rules by taking on a different role or setting up a dynasty.
I think that there is a natural 10 year limit on politicians. After taking power they have a period when they are giventhe benefit of the doubt but after 10 years the public generally wants a change. In the UK this can be seen in the departures of Maggie and Tony who both reached their use by date and left the rump of the administration to others. Major managed to gain a forth term for the conservatives only because the opposition was still unelectable.
You're all doing very well !!
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Ref 11, Tough
"America is moving back to the right."
American society never stopped being center-right. We remain very conservative on social issues, distrustful of foreigners, and antagonistic to anything that resembles socialism or challenges our way of life and our values.
Barack Obama benefited from the excesses of the Bush Administration, the economic downturn, and because the GOP over-reached on both domestic and international policies. He also benefited from the novelty and implications of electing a black candidate; rather than because people suddenly embraced liberalism and opposed the influence of religion or conservative social and fiscal values or even a tough stance against our foreign enemies, real or perceived.
The fact that our President remains enormously popular does not mean his policies are. A lot of people are very concerned with the large increases in government spending and their impact on our national debt, are very nervous with the advancement of what some consider socialist programs, and with the overtures they are seeing towards countries that were transformed into evil nations by unrelenting propaganda in recent decades. A U-turn on foreign policy without first educating the populace is a dangerous path to take.
Unless the Obama administration does a better job at educating the electorate the Democratic majority may be in jeopardy in 2010 and the president's re-election chances may be anything but guaranteed. Fortunately for the Democrats, the GOP remains engaged in incendiary rhetoric and negativism, making the Dems look like pragmatists and statesmen. If a pragmatic, qualified, and charismatic GOP candidate emerges, watch out.
Ultimately, the ability of a politician to remain in office is not based on term limits, but on the wishes of the electorate, which is influenced by perceptions that often escape incumbents consumed by the euphoria of victory.
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Primaries may be a way to reduce the power of the political parties. Parties have too much influence and going over ther machines head to the people is a good idea but I'mnot sure that there would a big turn out for primaries to select candidates for parlimentary constituencies. Some constituencies may have over half a dozen parties standing and that's a lot of primaries to hold before even getting to the election itself.
How about making parties put forward two candidates - most popular candidate from the party with greatest total of votes is elected and an idependant is elected if more votes than any other candidate since would have no running mate.
I'm sure parties would find a way to subvert the system but at least it would make candidates not take a safe seat for granted.
You're all doing very well !!
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I was talking to someone who had been involved in pulling together the proposals for London Mayoral contests. Apparently the original draft limited the mayor to two terms of office, this was removed in the final draft. It's interesting to speculate would Boris Johnson had done so well last May had he not had to face the largely discredited Ken Livingston?
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All: The real problem is not term limits. The real problem is that Congress has no externally-imposed mechanism to ensure that they do not use the budget, the tax code, and the law as mechanisms to provide return on investment (ROI) to contributors, reward friends, and punish enemies (especially the enemies of their contributors). They can do enormous damage, even in a short time.
If Congress were shackled to a real requirement to balance the budget and not use the tax code for favors, and if those requirements were coupled with public funding of elections (so that there would NEVER be any excuse for a Congressperson or a staffer to take a dime from anyone), then it wouldn't matter if they stayed in office 2 years or 40 years.
I do not expect any of this to change. It would require an extraordinary act of integrity and courage on the part of the Congress to stand against their contributor base and make the hard decisions on balancing the budget, dealing with the debt, the tax code, etc.
We do, however, have an alternative, and that is to ruthlessly vote incumbents out. If they've been there 1 or 2 terms, that's enough...boot them out. If folks actually DID that, then at least some of the investors seeking political ROI would realize that the game was up, and they'd start looking elsewhere to game the system. Over time, we might even be able to address the budget and tax code issues.
@10 (guns): If it's really true that nothing works, then it's time for us to recast the American framework into something else. I'm not willing to do that, though; for myself, I still believe we can make this work, one day at a time.
@15 (StD): I agree with you that Americans everywhere need to be HANDED THE BILL for the services they think they want. This doesn't happen, because the pols are so nervous about taxation. That's counterproductive, though--someday unbalanced budgets will not be sustainable, and then it will be VERY HARD to change direction.
With regard to education, and welfare services, and so many other things (including defense, folks), part of this is a lack of understanding and acceptance on the part of Americans that they have responsibilities as citizens. Until that changes back to what it was, I'm not hopeful that much of this will change. The pols could help somewhat by making sure that they (a) focused the budget on things that could easily be measured and assessed, (b) ruthlessly punished corruption in the processes, and (c) ensured to the greatest extent possible that public funds weren't going to support any particular ideology. That, again, requires them to stand against their contributor base, though, so I'm not convinced that much will be done there. There's always hope, however.
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"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried."
The Fat Man said that. That's what he was good for, saying things people quote and that's about all. His great contribution to Britain was persuading the US to focus on fighting the Nazis as their number one priority after it had been attacked by Japan and entered the war.
Gunnysack;
"Actually, nothing works."
At the rate jobs are evaporating, it won't be long before you'll be able to say nothing and no one works. 150,000 jobs created by the stimulus package...and 345,000 lost in May alone. Unemployment is now at 9.4%. Geitner said it would not go above 8%. The politicians eternal hew and cry over failed policies; it's going to work, it just needs more time. The other party created the problem and it didn't happen overnight. It won't be fixed overnight either. (Tony Blair used that line for 10 years and got away with it.) Let's hope Geitner's right for once.
Saint Dominick's Pizza, if you don't like the basically conservative political culture that is most of America and the left can't change it...there's always Canada...or the UK. The door is never locked...from the inside. Somehow I think you'd find something to complain about no matter where you lived.
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Virginia is different than most states as the Governor can only serve one term. The historical connection to England has lead to a structure whereby the elected representatives have more power, although the Governor of Virginia has more power than most. In modren times, it is the bureaucrats and technocrats that run everything, unelected and unaccountable.
I would not judge anything that happens in Virginia as represetative of trends or other states. Virginia remains uniquely backwards and is proud of it.
The Northern Virginia crowd, usually Washington D.C. bureaucrats and politicians, view Virginia as somewhere to get elected. The "Fertile Cresent" along the Eastern part of the state is much different than the rest of Virginia. One candidate had Clinton ties and money..negatives in most of Virginia, one was the Northern Virginia candidate...other parts of the state do not support or benefit from the agenda of that region and one was from the far Southwest part of the state, Bath County, a place most Virginians could'nt find on a map, he won.
I wish him luck but the General Assembly has not produced a meaningful piece of legislation in over eight years and the Hampton Roads area wants to spend billions on roads that will not solve the traffic problems. There is a reason everyone moved West.
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Michigan has term limits for all it's state offices.I think it's a good idea.I think it works because of state ballots and watch dog groups that report the bad apples who are involved with Corporations.If you have a good politician they will find another position.If you have a bad politician catering to one social issue to get elected than they eventually leave office.Many of Detroit problems started because the basically only having one political party (Democrats) and no terms limits.We need to limit Corporate and special interest money.Some of the lobbiest came from out state companies trying to influence our Energy Bills so they could sell and Build Coal Plants in our state.Steam Cell Research Bill was opposed by the Catholic Church and Pro lifers spending large amounts of dollars.However because of the Watch Dog Groups you can find out who is paying for the commercials.Many people thought the Catholic Church should have spent that millions of dollars on people in need instead and there was a backlash in the newspapers.So just get educated about your politicians and find out who these people are and what they want and who they worked for in the past.
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Ref 22, Marcus
"...if you don't like the basically conservative political culture that is most of America and the left can't change it...there's always Canada...or the UK. The door is never locked...from the inside..."
You are absolutely right Marcus, the door is never locked when it comes to leaving the homeland, and parts of Canada are much closer to your beloved Mother Russia than California is.
Only you would find an angle to accuse a person that opposes abortion, gay marriage, and fiscal irresponsibility of being a lefty. I remain a registered Democrat because I believe government has a role in promoting and ensuring the welfare of the American people, and because I prefer diplomatic solutions and compromise to solve international problems, as long as those compromises don't affect our interests or our security.
On the issue of term limits, I support the presidential two-terms, but I am not sure it is in our best interest to extend that limitation to Congress. In my opinion, the best arbiter is the electorate, not mandatory guidelines that may impair our ability to retain talent in Congress when that elusive attribute emerges in that august institution. The biggest impediment to progress and fairness are an uninformed electorate that often reacts to emotional social issues instead of focusing on what may be best for us in the long run. An uninformed electorate becomes fertile ground for extremists and radicals on both sides of the political spectrum who often take advantage of their naivete or pre-conceived ideas to achieve goals that are often detrimental to mainstream America and only benefit their pocketbooks or ideological goals.
Healthcare and immigration reform, and energy independence, should be our top priorities; instead we continue to engage on issues such as religion, moral values, and trivialities such as Obama taking his wife out to dinner!
I realize that anyone that does not support Stalinist purges and overt hatred of other cultures is an unrepentant liberal in your book, and a candidate for deportation and exile in...Europe...but you would be well adviced to consider the inevitability of many of the changes that are taking place and accept the fact that the USA - and the entire world - are continuously evolving and that trying to preserve the past is something limited to history books, genealogical archives, and those that live in the fringes of society.
BTW, I am not too keen on pizza, I prefer a good paella...
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10. At 05:08am on 10 Jun 2009, gunsandreligion wrote:
Actually, nothing works.
The only good thing that can be said about democracy and the politicians who
embody its machinery is that, over the long haul, it is better than the other
alternatives which have been tried.
------------------------------------------
or maybe they all work ... to some extent. Nah ,you are right.
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Y'all know there's no need to knot one's knickers about this...hyperventilating in such muggy, hot weather leads to heatstroke. It's time to sit on the porch with a mojito and take a vacay from the political sillies.
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And Justin great blog topic.
term limits are one of those damn if you do damned if you don't jobbies. UK seems to get to have a greater tolerance for the party in power to keep allowing them to stay in for these long terms.
But the steady creep to the right on all fronts is evident. Hopefully the US will break that trend (having increased it (with others) with the globalisation of factory wage slaves ).
Term limits may help get rid of political dynasties but as the last link points out what you get as a replacement is not always great. (I have a similar argument for keeping the monarchy when that one raises its head , just to mention Dynasties).
The influence of the system tweekers as a permanent feature of politics is maybe what has led to the ridiculous lobbying game .
Either way It normally sorts it'self out. Now in the UK there is no term limit for a reason. The Party gets the vote not the person at the top. The party just has a figurehead.
That can be changed mid term but to put a term limit there would ensure a see saw policies more than happens as is. How can you have a term limit on a party and still have democracy.
It would however encourage competition between other parties and spur an increase in the number of parties. After all if Labour were definitely not allowed to run next time the others would have to out do each others and there would have to be others ,not a 2 party system. So libdemsdpnextnameplease party would get a chance.
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Young-Mr-Grace (#19) "How about making parties put forward two candidates ... "
You can't do that in the United States. Here a party is essentially a group of people choosing to exercize their first amendment rights as a bloc. They have the right to choose who represents them. Attempts to interfere in the workings of parties have generally been found unconstitutional, and properly so.
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MarcusAureliusII # 22
A discussion about politics and politicians USA and UK and you begin it, with a famous quotation. My hopes arose. A new beginning? ,
Not too sure what you have against " the fat man"
American mother. Graduated 8th out of 150 in his class. Polo player. War hero. Nobel prize winner. POW escapee. First honorary citizen of the United States. Capable politician, painter, writer, journalist
Honoured by a state funeral.
Or could it be that he wrote "A History of the English-Speaking Peoples" instead of "American speaking" and smoked Cuban Havana cigars? Perhaps it is just that he enjoyed Scotch whiskey and French brandy.
I am informed you have stopped with the bourbon, and returned to drinking vodka? Nothing like the taste of home they say.
The fat man- Winston Churchill also wrote
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject".
"If we open a quarrel between past and present, we shall find that we have lost the future".
Got any good quotations from the "Bushman".
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"Term limits" doesn't appear to be a particularly exciting subject; people are either for it or against it. What I find more interesting is the recent advocacy by PM Brown of an alternate voting method for members of the UK Parliament to replace plurality voting, which, for reasons known only to them, the British call "first-past-the-post."
Here is a helpful guide to some alternate voting schemes:
http://bcn.boulder.co.us/government/approvalvote/altvote.html
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The "Fat Man" was the first plutonium bomb.
Churchill had more respect for "The Great Republic" than MAII has for the UK (or almost anywhere or anyone else).
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/churchill/
Churchill's "Iron Curtain" speech was just recently selected to be included in the (US) National Recording Registry of the Library of Congress. Why did it take so long?
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#25, 32, 35,
Gentlemen,
Perhaps the most important point is that Churchill didn't say anything of the sort. Lady Soames, his daughter, did. Like the socialist at 20 conservative at 40 it is a fallacy made up by folks to prove a point, as if Churchill was the font of all knowledge when in fact he was a truly awful peacetime politician.
He did say something about the best arguement against Democracy being to spend 5 minutes with the average voter. He may have a point there, Marcus being only slightly below avaerage at everything he sets his mind to.
Sad Sam
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The real solution to removing long seated politicians now out of date or too entrenched in privilege would be for voters to just make that choice (much as it is up to the voters to toss aside obvious dribble in an election that only takes on a top 40 appeal when massive funds allow it to be played 500 times a day).
Forcing out solid, representative career politicians who have earned the public trust only means more scoundrels in the ranks.
If we vote in knuckleheads, we deserve what we get, and no legislation will ever change that.
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31. Gary
... is on to something.
Term limits are, and always have been, a dumb idea. They just make sure that people who are successful, and who have knowledge and experience will be forced out. What other serious business would de-capitate its leadership this way. Sorry Ray Kroc, you're out. Sorry Henry Ford, you're time is up. Sorry Alfred Sloan, time's up, you're done. Warren Buffet? Sam Walton?
Craziness.
The key to preventing many of the problems that led voters to embrace term limits is permitting voters to vote on specific issues. The Swiss figured this out, and their form of Direct Democracy works a treat. They have a legislature, and four times a year the voters have the opportunity to force public votes on issue of public importance at the commune, cantonal and federal levels.
Sometimes they use those opportunities, and sometimes they don't. The critical thing is that they have the opportunity, and it keeps everyone honest. Keeps corruption out. Makes sure that taxes are spent on appropriate public projects. Prevents the lobbying free-for-alls seen in Washington (the "No Lobbyist Left Behind" Act) Sometimes actually lets voters initiate desirable policies.
A century ago the Progressives tried to introduce the right to referendum and initiative, and succeeded at the state level in many western states. They also succeeded in having senators elected, rather than appointed as they had previously been. However, somewhere in the translation something got lost, so a system that works really well in Switzerland sometimes does not work in, say, California. Suspect it has something to do with the state not being able to proposed a modified referendum alternative to that of the popular initiatives. May also have something to do with Switzerland's excellent schools - although that may be reversing cause and effect.
In any case, introducing a greater degree of direct democracy - so that voters can correct abuses themselves - is a far better solution than term limits.
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Good to see you back Sam wise
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Would no term limits have saved Bush?
I doubt it so here is one example where the people set the term.
A good practice in a democracy.
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SamTyler1969 (#33), I believe the socialist/conservative remark was made by Disraeli, and Churchill may have quoted him.
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Here's another Disraeli quote, befitting the blogosphere:
"How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct."
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Sam, I think you may be wrong about the Churchill quote. Everything I have looked at confirms that he did say it, in in a speech to the commons in November 1947. You may want to recheck your source.
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watermelon;
I like Scotch Whiskey and French brandy too.
"Got any good quotations from the "Bushman"."
Yeah. "Mission accomplished!"
Fat Man bio;
Graduated 8th out of 150 in his class; That means there were 7 better in his class alone.
Polo player; Must have ridden on an iron horse. Wouldn't think an ordinary horse could get around with him on its back.
War Hero; Where, Gallipoli? Hero for whom, the other side?
Nobel prize winner; Him and Arafat
POW escapee; Doesn't say much for the guards if they let something that big get away unnoticed.
First honorary citizen of the United States; Everyone is entitled to one mistake.
Capable politician; Yeah, after Chamberlain nearly wiped Britain off the map they'd take anyone willing to accept the job
painter; could have gone into business with the paper hanger Hitler.
writer; me too
journalist; always knows the best bars in every city to hang out in.
Honoured by a state funeral; As good a reason as any for Britain to celebrate, there wasn't much reason for joy for them in those days.
He also invent Iraq single handedly.
Over the hill;
If someone gets my respect...they've done something to earn it. That's what makes it valuable.
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InterestedForeigner (#35), a few weeks ago The Economist had an amusing look at how direct democracy works in California:
http://www.economist.com/world/unitedstates/displayStory.cfm?STORY_ID=13649050
Not very well.
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35, interested.
"Term limits are, and always have been, a dumb idea. They just make sure that people who are successful, and who have knowledge and experience will be forced out. What other serious business would de-capitate its leadership this way. Sorry Ray Kroc, you're out. Sorry Henry Ford, you're time is up. Sorry Alfred Sloan, time's up, you're done. Warren Buffet? Sam Walton? craziness."
One the one hand I agree with you - when it comes to private business and a profit has to be made. But when you have entrenched bureauocrats it is another matter. One: they don't have to make a profit for the people they serve. Two: they often place their own interests above those of the people they serve. Three: they are well-placed for corruption. I am thinking particularly of Congress.
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There seems to be a consensus that the "socialist" quote originated with Francois Guizot (he used the word "republican"). The first person to render an English version is in doubt; it has been attributed to a dozen or so persons. Here is a link to an item which claims that it originated with the second US President, John Adams, when Guizot was a child.
http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/2008_05/arts_quotations.html
I'm not claiming this is correct, only pointing out that it is not easy to get a definitive answer on priority.
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"If someone gets my respect...they've done something to earn it. That's what makes it valuable."
- comedy quote of the decade.
I'm sure we can all imagine Churchill, sitting back in a political Valhalla and staring ruefully into the fire.
"My one regret" he intones "is that I never earned the respect of the crazed New Jersey electrician demographic. Ah, a life wasted."
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Terms limits are stupid especially in Congress because the longer members stay the more powerful positions they can have. No Freshmen/woman can Chair a Committee.
This question of limits has to do with the Republicans trying to oust the Democrats. Now it is backfiring on them. If you teach a dog to bite etc.
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Post 29 Gary,
Thanks for your comment. I was thinking more in a Uk context and comming up with a sort of hybrid "single transferable vote" and "first past the post system" to combine the primary with the main election to avoid having to go to the polls very many times eg a voter in Edinburgh could in theory have primaries for Labour, Conservative, Scottish Nationalist, Liberal Democrat, Green, Scottish Socialist, UKIndependance and others and so be suffering extreme fatigue by the time the actual election arrives. The issue for parliament, and I think for congress and senate, is that many people are elected to represent areas generally loyal to one party. This means that once elected to a safe seat they often have a job for life as long as they retain party support. It would be good to have a system that gave the people the choice of candidate as well as party. The Single Transferable Vote system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_transferable_vote)does this but is not without its flaws and attempts by parties at "vote management".
You're all doing very well !!
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#33. SamTyler1969: "#25, 32, 35, Perhaps the most important point is that Churchill didn't say anything of the sort. Lady Soames, his daughter, did. Like the socialist at 20 conservative at 40"
Not even the Churchill Institute questions the quotes, although it does dispute others; I think you're wrong in this case. And - as you are posted at #33, how can you quote someone at #35 and #40, who posted after you? In any case, their remarks do not appear to concern WLC.
#41. MarcusAureliusII: "I like Scotch Whiskey and French brandy too."
The spirits distilled in Scotland are called whisky - the Irish make Whiskey, as do other countries.
"If someone gets my respect...they've done something to earn it."
Tell us who does get your respect, it would be helpful to know what your frame of reference is.
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Here's an interesting quote from John Adams:
"I am well aware of the Toil and Blood and Treasure, that it will cost Us to maintain this Declaration, and support and defend these States. Yet through all the Gloom I can see the Rays of ravishing Light and Glory."
All politicians steal good words from one another.
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Marcus
You do Bushman a great dis-service.
"Mission accomplished" indeed. {He was a lot on his knees, though his new "church" does seem to have suffered}
I prefer to think in the plural.
More of "omissions acomplished"
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Divid
Whisky / whiskey mis-spelling is my fault. But then Marcus using it is the highest form of flattery.
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Apologies David.
Not only your name but I mis-spelled Mis-spelt and a[c]complished once too.
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Young-Mr-Grace (#47) "I was thinking more in a UK context."
But isn't it likewise true in the UK that political parties may select their own candidates by their own method of choice? Would it be a good thing for government to intrude in their affairs to this degree?
I am familiar with the matter of political districts being dominated by one party. I happen to live in what may be the safest Democratic Congressional district in the US. Some years the Republicans don't even bother to put up a candidate. Many districts are competitive, however. That's just the way it goes, over here. I am in favor of single-member districts, as in the UK, because I believe it leads to more stable government.
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ref #46
Terms limits are stupid especially in Congress because the longer members stay the more powerful positions they can have. No Freshmen/woman can Chair a Committee.
Nancy Pelosi performance prove that experience hack can not handle the job.
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The present fiasco in the legistlature of New York State is a good argument for term limits. The two renegades are both under a cloud (one has already been found guilty). I wonder how much Galisano has paid them or what he has promised them. The Albany legislature has always had a filthy name. Throw the rascals out! Throw new rascals in!
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47, Young.
"You're all doing very well !!"
That sounds a mite condescending. Like a mother commending her children for brushing their teeth.
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marbles, people being condescending isn't nice, but I think you'll find that 'young mr grace' was a character from a british tv show many years ago, who finished off whatever he had to say with "you're all doing very well".
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45. Dark
That was funny.
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43. Marbles
"But when you have entrenched bureauocrats it is another matter. One: they don't have to make a profit for the people they serve. Two: they often place their own interests above those of the people they serve. Three: they are well-placed for corruption. I am thinking particularly of Congress.
On the subject of entrenched bureaucrats, term limits acutally makes it worse. Think of Sir Humphrey Appleby.
Experience is a great teacher in many fields: Suppose we had term limits for musicians: Nothing more from Mozart after age 13; nothing more from Sir Paul or Sir Mick after 1972 (or, really, quite a bit earlier); nothing more from Paul Simon, Beethoven doesn't have to worry about going deaf, he's already been put out to pasture. Artists? Leonardo might as well not have bothered. Rembrandt? Writers? Well nobody writes anything worthwhile after the first 8 years. Scientists? Nobody invents or discovers anything in old age. Benjamin Franklin never achieved anything past the age of thirty ...
How would you like to go through school, and university, and never have a teacher or a professor with more than 8 years experience in the job, and, on average only 4 years of experience?
The problem with the corruption issue is that the article to which Justin refers points out that term limits actually seem to make it worse.
There is no logical nexus between term limits and avoiding corruption. There is, however, a clear relationship between accountability and corruption. A system where voters can force accountability has a big head start on one where voters do not have control.
If you think its bad at the level of federal politics, in the glare of the national media, take a closer look at the sleepy backwater bayous of your local school board or town council. There is almost no public accountability at the lower levels of government and yet they make decisions that spend a lot of our money. There is no level of government that is pettier, more prone to corruption, more prone to nepotism than the municipality. There is no governing body that is less representative of voters at large, less accountable, or more uniformly subject to agency capture than the local public school board, and parents are virtually powerless to do anything about it.
Consider this, by contrast: at the level of municipal politics, Swiss voters can force a public vote on any issue involving more then 100,000 SFr, and Swiss parents get to vote on teacher performance in the schools.
As far as I can tell, there is remarkably little corruption in Swiss government, because there is nowhere for it to hide. Oh, and somehow they have high quality public services at relatively low levels of taxation. How is that possible? Might be some lessons there.
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#56. allmymarbles "You're all doing very well !!" "That sounds a mite condescending."
Clearly you have never watched the BBC sitcom Are You Being Served? from thirty years ago! It was a catch phrase used by the proprietor of the department store in which the series was set. The character of "Young Mr Grace" was in his late seventies or possibly eighties. Although it was primarily an ensemble piece, John Inman became the de facto star, playing a part which would (then) never have seen the light of day on American television. Very ahead for its time.
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57, seanspa.
I didn't know that. Thank you for telling me.
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47, Young.
Seanspa just explained your parting comment. He said it was from an old British show. My apoligies.
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59, Interested.
I agree with everything you say, with the exception of the paragraph which deals with people who are not public servants. It is the "public servants" that are consistently corrupt and, I agree, it is worse in smaller communities. I only used Congress as an example.
The problem in fighting corruption, at least here, is that the watchdogs are the corrupted themselves. Given our system I see little hope. No, term limits would not solve the problem, because the same system would put new rascals in office. I can not see a solution.
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Much as I detest the idea of politicians entrenched for life, I think it's a distraction from the true issue- as others have pointed out, it's the corruption that big money of all political stripes. The only possible solution would be a Constitutional amendment mandating public campaign finance and banning all campaign contributions. Only after the distracting scent of money disappears can the elected officials start making the hard decisions this- and any other democracy- needs.
While we're at it, throw in another amendment to extend the terms of U.S. Reps from 2 to 4 years, so that they don't have to start campaigning the day after they're sworn in.
I'm more torn on the idea of referendums. Representative democracy, at least without the money interest, in theory has some advantages over direct democracy by allowing time for in depth, measured thought and analysis, and some level of protection from demagoguery. It's too easy to pander to an uneducated base and persuade people to vote in your favor, regardless of the wisdom of your views.
And yes, revamping the education system would help- but it wouldn't necessarily make people care any more... That's a cultural issue.
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And while I'm at it, Santa, I want peace on earth and a pony... and maybe profit sharing and a salary cap in the Major Leagues, so my beloved Pirates can stop their record as the most losing seasons (soon to be 17) in a row...
Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus!
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61. At 00:39am on 11 Jun 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
57, seanspa.
'I didn't know that. Thank you for telling me.'
It's a bit of a classic like Fawlty Towers. Dunno y DC was being coy about it: John Inman played a very camp gay shop assistant in it. Complete with limp wrist and other OTT stereotypical attributes. And 'Julian and my friend Sandy' who were even more camp were part of a radio comedy series called Round the Horne even earlier. Must have been the beginning of the 60's?
btw, looks to me more like Young Mr Grace (in the series, that is) was more in his early hundreds . . .
(Oh. S'pose this will just give some 'right minded' posters an excuse to go Beeb-bashing? But then, so what? Who cares.)
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45. At 8:13pm on 10 Jun 2009, Dark Side of the Goon wrote:
"If someone gets my respect...they've done something to earn it. That's what makes it valuable." (MAII)
What I want to know is what the pay is like. (And the hours and perks.)
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Both parties sometimes are morons. If politicians have more power then the people have less. Our local democrats are free to get bribes from developers with no risk of losing their seat. Both sides are corrupt and inept. So yes we need term limits.
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It takes years to master the subtle art of acceptable corruption, and to understand your constituents well enough to reap a majority vote despite your inevitable peccadillos. Byrd-KKK, Stevens-reversed corruption charges, Kennedy-a mysterious death. Legends. Whatever else, we must not have term limits in the Senate.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#70 - the connection will also be drawn to incendiary speeches by GOP inciting the far right - ie, killings by the kid in Pittsburgh, of the abortion doctor, of this holocaust museum guard....a position disagreeing with the politics of Israel is not 'anti-semitic' 'specially since arabs are technically 'semitic' and many israelis are not, racially or by majority of ancestry. But political speech trigger words crafted to play on people's prejudices....the GOP wannabe spokespeople whomever they are, are throwing them as chum in the water right now out of political desperation...
So apply the term limit issue....irrelevant here I think except that the US has SHORT MEMORY...they won't remember these shootings by the time of the next vote...a justification for term limits? Is it a function of the ineptitude of the people?
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71. At 03:21am on 11 Jun 2009, frayedcat:
Any attempt to bring that topic into this thread is 'irrelevant here' and should be ignored. It's clearly off-topic, therefore breaks the House Rules, and I hope that the moderators will not allow this blog to descend into Avernus yet again.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Actually, upon reflection, I submit that term limits are not the real
issue. Gerrymandering is. And, since political districts are drawn by
human, and not divine, hands, this will never cease being the problem.
And now, being dinnertime, I must adjourn to select between a $2 merlot and
an $.80 beer.
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#66. squirrelist: Ref John Inman - "Dunno y DC was being coy about it"
I wasn't being coy - the show can be seen regularly on PBS stations to this very day; I simply said that thirty plus years ago the character would not have been seen on American television. It was not until 1998 and "Will and Grace" that similar portrayals were seen on commercial channels in the USA.
Jules and Sandy (circa 1964) were an obvious and over-the-top spoof of what was often then thought to be the stereotypical gay man - and at a time when the word gay had not in Britain then attained its current meaning. It was primarily American useage, but a "knowing few" recognised it, as used in pre-war songs such as "I'm a Campfire Girl" by the great Beatrice Lillie and the post-war Ivor Novello Musical "Gay's the Word" - a clever double entendre since the gay in question was the name of the leading character, Gay Daventry. John Inman's "Mr Humphries" was, to a degree, a rather more realistic (although stereotypical) portrayal of the effeminate shop assistant which could be found in stores such as Harrods and, occasionally, in Carnaby Street, home to the Mod wardrobe and where the late John Stephen influenced a generation of smart dressers. Despite the more recent Tommy Hilfiger and Calvin Klein, America has had no equal.
Incidentally, Harold Bennett, who created the role of Young Mr Grace, was actually 81 when his appearances were curtailed by death.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Thanks to all for explaining the origin of my "nom de blog" and the characters catchphrase. You can see it in action on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8aQJAJ2VS8
I meant it to be ironic rather than condesending
You're all doing very well !!
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53. At 9:09pm on 10 Jun 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:
But isn't it likewise true in the UK that political parties may select their own candidates by their own method of choice? Would it be a good thing for government to intrude in their affairs to this degree?
I certianly would not want government interference in the selection of candidates (although obviously the party of government will interfere with candidate selection for political reasons).
I just seems that primaries give the voters a say in candidate selection and I approve of that but I also think it unwieldy in a parlimentary system with many parties. There must be some system which allows voters to stay with the party of their choice without having to vote for a candidate they don't want.
In the UK some issues eg capital punishment and abortion are generally not part of a part platform and MPs have a free vote when those issues come before parliament. This would be one area where voter could differentiate between candiadtes who share a party platform but differ on some moral issues.
You're all doing very well !!
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MarcusAurelius,they,she or it.
Loves rolling in trouble,as a pig does in sh-t.
The aim is not random,the pourpose is clear,
to render asunder things we hold dear.
The people of Europe & friends to the west,
should skip over his postings,if you know what is best.
Hey guys I am on holls in Tuscany,rented an old cottage in the country.
This time I have landed on my feet,its so breath taking brill.Off for
some lunch in Montepulciano and then a Kip, Life is so good,
Best wishes to all...
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Hey Shakespeare, your meter could do with some work. As with most tyro wanna be poets, among other things you can't seem to get the rhythm right. You can start by learining to count time to music. The easiest is a march in 2/4 time. Now repeat after me; "one-two, one-two, one-two, one-two, left-right, left-right left-right." See how easy that is. Within five years, with enough work on your part and enough patience on mine, I'll have you up to being able to write limericks that actually follow the correct meter. Who knows where we can go from there.
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Term limits are ways to manipulate or circumvent the vote of the majority. If the majority prefers old blood over new blood at any given election, then it is their prerogative and should not be prevented. How is it possible for a majority vote to rally for an 3rd or 4th term incumbent and at the same time favor term limit laws. Logic dictates otherwise. Term limit laws are presumptuous means by some to forcibly govern others.
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Don't want to get into a lot of detail on this, as we appear to have moved on, but I find myself rather torn on the issue of term limits. On the one hand they are arguably fundamentally undemocratic, as they are restricting the right of the people to choose who they want to vote for. OTOH I can see the appeal eg in the House of Reps, where AFAIK incumbency provides a massive advantage, and incumbents are rarely defeated. [Also AFAIK the candidate with more funds is v rarely defeated.] I think there may be other changes needed to the political system, but I frankly don't know what they are.
With regard to the question of having open primaries for candidates, one advantage of the STV PR system used in this country is that you generally have a choice of 2 or more candidates from a big party when you are voting, and you can put them [and all candidates] in order of preference. This does mean that you can vote for a party without being stuck with whatever candidate the party has foisted on you. However there are disadvantages to STV, which I don't have time to go into.
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Marcus
I thought you people marched to hay-straw,hay-straw,hay.
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John-In-Dublin (#82)
"incumbents are rarely defeated"
Is this a bad thing? If we threw out our congressmen regularly, I would take that as an indication that they weren't doing a good job, on the whole. If we tend to keep them, we have a more experienced Congress.
"the candidate with more funds is v(ery)rarely defeated"
I don't believe this is true to the extent most people think it is. There are a lot of examples of people with a lot of money failing to get elected in US elections. When an elected official becomes known to his constituents for doing a good job, often he (or she) can stay in office with very little campaigning. Look up former Senator William Proxmire for a good example. As for getting elected in the first place, that does take some money, but it mainly requires hard work and the right message.
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John-In-Dublin (#82) "However there are disadvantages to STV, which I don't have time to go into."
See the link in my post #31.
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68. TDJ
Nah, you're missing the point.
The problem is corruption. The corrective to corruption is visibility and accountability.
We don't need term limits, because there is no logical nexus between them and corruption. All it does is make sure that the ones who are good get thrown out with the ones who are bad.
As for the corruption of the watchdogs, well, it's a check-and-balances kind of thing. Sometimes it takes a fox to know how best to guard the henhouse, and having democrats and republicans both sniffing after each others' mis-deeds, and having a free and vigorous press do work to provide illumination works tolerably well.
The ballot box provides the best kind of accountability.
As for the simplicity or stupidity or gullibility of voters, well, ultimately that's an argument for having no elections at all.
Referenda have a chequered history in the US, and I do not know why. The Swiss vote on very, very sophisticated financial questions - pensions, major railroad expenditures, major military equipment purchases , for example, - and do a pretty good job of it. Why doesn't it work in the US? Switzerland is a serious country, with a very advanced economy, exceptionally high standard of living. Why does it work there, and not here? What's the difference?
Also agree with Guns ...
74. Guns.
Yes. Agreed.
The Supreme Court of Canada went a long way to solving this problem in a court case in Saskatchewan 20 years ago, where they established a rule that no riding could vary more than 15 % from the mean in terms of population, and required logical geographic continguity. An independent re-districting commission and judicial oversight helps.
And a third thing that would help is abolition of closed primaries.
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39. At 6:27pm on 10 Jun 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:
Here's another Disraeli quote, befitting the blogosphere:
"How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct."
boy wouldn't you know.
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InterestedForeigner (#86) "Referenda have a chequered history in the US ... "
Initiatives are more of a problem than referenda. This is because they are always written by a particular interest group, whereas acts of the legislature are usually a product of compromise. Initiatives in California often contain goofy provisions.
The State of Washington had an interesting solution to this, when I lived there. (I suppose they still do, but do not know for certain.) When an initiative qualified for the ballot, the legislature could choose to write an alternative, in order to correct the faults in the initiative. Voters would then be given both, and they would vote "for either" (or "against both") and would indicate a preference if "for either" passed. The preference vote would count even if that voter was against both.
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InterestedForeigner (#86) "And a third thing that would help is abolition of closed primaries."
If by "closed" you mean that party candidates are selected only by members of that party, in the US such a prohibition would be unconstitutional. There are states with open primaries, but that is because the state parties go along with it. A state can have an open primary for one party and a closed party for another.
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59 Interested Good post.
It seems to me that the term limits are not as important as people holding the politicians accountable.. Your post puts that in a sane manner.
One of the problems with voting every issue like in the states and the school board and the sanitation officer and the XYZ people that we end up having to vote for because there is no one else running is it gives no real accountability. The sheriff school board sanitation crew decide their own agenda on the grounds "we have a mandate" despite so few voting in those elections.
So here in Eugene we have a police auditor who the people voted for. But the city and the sheriff are doing their best to make sure that the auditor has no power. the will of the people is replaced by the desires of the incumbents. Same with federal court house rejected by locals 3 times.
same for the new jail turned down by the voters.
all the time the elected officials claiming they were elected.
elections are provided here to give a semblance of democracy but the Humphries are still at work.The small town bought . I wish sometimes there was more control from the feds.
out own cops are something out of a movie .
but all in allt o throw the rest of my post out and get to the reality.
Whatever system is in place .works , as long as the people voting are not so politically uneducated that they are manipulated. either system fails when the people forget to think.
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better the devil you know.
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88. Gary
Yes, that is a lot more like the Swiss idea, where the legislature can propose an alternative (usually more moderate, spelled S-A-N-E), and the voters then get to pick.
89. That may be true, but closed primaries have any number of undesirable effects - including the decapitation of moderates, the empowerment of extremists, the leveraging of the influence of well funded interests groups, and on and on.
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InterestedForeigner (#92), that may be true, but the Republicans have managed to decapitate their moderates quite independent of the nature of their primaries.
Here is an example which may support your thesis, although one cannot generalize from a single example:
Gilchrest
Maryland had a closed primary in 2008. There are many other factors, however.
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Addendum: To add to my previous remark, it may be that the Republicans (those who control the state party rules) want to decapitate the moderates, which is their right. It's difficult for a pragmatist to understand, but the Republicans seem bent on marginalizing themselves.
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# 84 Gary_A_Hill wrote:
"John-In-Dublin (#82)
"incumbents are rarely defeated"
Is this a bad thing? If we threw out our congressmen regularly, I would take that as an indication that they weren't doing a good job, on the whole. If we tend to keep them, we have a more experienced Congress."
Obviously it's not inherently a bad thing - especially if it indicates that people are happy with their politicians. And, unless there's a strong anti-incumbent mood, there's a natural tendency to stick with 'the devil you know', who has at least 2 years' experience.
But - I recall seeing a stat that the re-election rate in the House is somewhere between 90-100%. [Don't know where I saw this.] Together with the suggestion that the better-funded candidate nearly always wins, this does not suggest to me that this re-election rate is purely down to voter satisfaction.
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john0In-Dublin (#95) " ... especially if it indicates that people are happy with their politicians."
Not likely. In the US (and many other places, I suspect) it is traditional to have a low opinion of politicians. Generally, their popularity score is slightly better than that for lawyers and slightly worse than that for reporters.
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Here's one writer's thoughts on the high rate of relection of incumbents in the US:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2006_07/009228.php
N.B. "Gerrymandering" is properly pronounced with a hard "G," although most people with think you a pedant if you insist on it.
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97, Gary -
Oh, you're right about the hard "g." I looked it up. Mr. Elbridge Gerry's name was pronounced like yours rather than "Jerry." I love finding these things out. Just because.
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93. Gary. LOL.
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95 J-i-D:
Some years ago (20 or so?) the Economist ran an article that pointed out the US members of congress run a greater risk of being removed by the grim reaper than by voters. Such is the huge advantage of incumbency in the US system.
That, to me, is a fair signal that the machinery of representative democracy is not running very well.
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"Gary_A_Hill wrote:
InterestedForeigner (#92), that may be true, but the Republicans have managed to decapitate their moderates quite independent of the nature of their primaries.
Gary
"Here is an example which may support your thesis, although one cannot generalize from a single example:
Gilchrest
Maryland had a closed primary in 2008. There are many other factors, however."
Andy harris was a weak candidate. Republicans in Maryland are fairly weak and you have to count the Obama factor. And The economic downturn just before the election.
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Interested
the Swiss vote on very, very sophisticated financial questions - pensions, major railroad expenditures, major military equipment purchases , for example, - and do a pretty good job of it. Why doesn't it work in the US? Switzerland is a serious country, with a very advanced economy, exceptionally high standard of living. Why does it work there, and not here? What's the difference?
education.;)
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# 97 Gary_A_Hill wrote:
"N.B. "Gerrymandering" is properly pronounced with a hard "G," although most people with think you a pedant if you insist on it."
Regardless of how it's spelled, I would suggest the main issue is why it's allowed. Size and shape of constituencies was taken out of political hands here c 30 years ago, and I'm pretty sure they have an independent system in the UK too.
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Ref 80,MA2.
Sparky,Marky dont get narky,
for a limerick it was not sent.
The proes I choes in case you dont knows,
was a doggrel with serious intent.
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Happily stranded wales
Thanks for the well penned words.
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Left- right - left - right
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YuWuLlmx0s&feature=related
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tdj (#101), I don't get your point. The Republicans defeated an incumbent Republican (Gilchrest) in the primary, nominating the weaker Harris instead. They then lost the general election to the Democratic candidate. So the result is that the Republicans are losing market share by driving out their moderates. Do you disagree with this?
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Big Youth - Ten Against One
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXOIc2zPUxM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gikyFl1i0CM&feature=related
peace
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtu-zlCmS9I
Back to you
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Lol too much reggae EEK a mouse
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The truth is, most democracies don't need "term limits." People are wise and educated enough to know which politician is corrupted and which one isn't and vote according. In my honest opinion what the US need is a elected system of government with a "probation period" of no more than 12 months. Most government employees in the USA only have 90 to prove themselves they are capable of handling their responsibilities.
And those surviving the probation period of 12 months must get a "confidence vote" by voters. If we going to let crooks, greedy opportunists, corporate warmongers, racists, liars and thieves looting the treasuries, than let's spend that money on reelecting or kicking them out! It will be worth the cost. Perhaps only than can we find some honest ones to run for office.
We must all be aware that in the USA, most politicians, especially in the GOP, do not consider it a government of the people, for the people and by the people. They consider it opportunistic careers which once elected, the whole enchilada is up for grabs! That they get to vote for their own pay raises is a splendid example of corruption.
By the way, we already have "term limits" in place for congressmen and women and it doesn't seem to work because until Mr. Obama came in being, most citizens didn't give a damn on who won or who lost. They just simply didn't vote because they assumed that money and corruption is what counts most when it come to getting elected in America! The most comment remarks from voters is that both parties (the donkeys and the elephants) are one and the same. The only difference is, the elephants throws out the biggest pieces of manure!
Looks that way for me.
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foxtrottango (#112) By the way, we already have "term limits" in place for congressmen and women ... "
No, we don't, unless you have some hidden meaning here.
Many states have term limits for their legislators, however.
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ref 105 14allandall41
Why thank you kind sir,
For me till my sunday flight ,life is a beach,
My 4th beer,& your very good health,
Cheers....
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#113, GARY_A_HILL
Term limits for US Representatives are two years and four years for the US Senate. But what good are 2 or 4 term limits when big corporate money takes over and keep electing the same ones over and over, again and again. Apart from the apathy shown at the voting booths years after year, could it be most Americans are not smart enough to determine what is right and what is wrong with our election system? After all, democracy (in regards to the election system) is not taught or required subjects in grade or high schools.
Our young people becomes additive to ignorance and arrogance in regards to the election system. Many teachers bringing up the election systems in our schools are either fired or threatened if they teach young boys and girls politics. The fact that President Obama bought out the best (and the worst) of American character is quite an achievement in US history. The disgust now shown by the ultra Neo-conservatives is very visible and is now involved in assassinations, murder, racism and crimes against the American people. Not surprisingly, the GOP and the Republicans are keeping mum on these horrific happenings. Are they responsible for these acts too? To remain silence is proof enough.
It shouldn't be that way in the US, but it is.
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115, foxtrot -
Senators are elected for six-year terms.
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fox (#115), ok, but your terminology is confusing the issue. "Term limits" is generally used to mean limits on the number of terms an officeholder may serve.
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My point is, Gary, a public official such as a governor, a representative or a senator is voted in for a specific number of years, that is 2 years, 4 or even six in case of governors. It depend on the voters (and the apathy) to determine if they want to keep them for that period or longer. Most American voters are too ignorant, too ill informed and the same corrupted officials keep getting elected over and over. In the short run it's up to the voters to let them stay in or kick them out, but big money intercepts in the equation and voter end up losing out most of the time. The problem with USA politics is not term limits, it's the political corruption that can money buy. Limit the amount to say $250,000.00 per politician, kick out the corporate lobbys in Congress, and watch good honest ones get in.
By the way, according to Ex-Gov Huckabee, a republican, there are no less than 70 lobbyists of all shades and forms for each congressman/women present in the hall of congress at any given time.
If most Americans would get properly informed and get involved in some of these election, two or four years would be more than enough for many of these politicians. But the fact that most elections are bought by big corporate crooks and the news media rely on big money for advertizing the election, the common honest citizen in the USA has no chance. That is what made the Obama election so exceptional. People got tired and got involved much to the dismay of the GOP, big money, and the Neo-Conservatives. They didn't figure on the American people to mobilize and make a change. The problem is, some democrats are to cowardly to fight the attempts of the republicans trying to destroy them and the citizens who voted them in.
That is what I am trying to say by "term limits."
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foxtrottango1 (#118) "If most Americans would get properly informed ... "
As it seems you do not know the length of terms of your elected officials, or the proper meaning of "term limits," I suggest that you get yourself "properly informed" before lecturing others.
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In the state of New Mexico, a US Senator term of service is for 6 years, a US Representative is for 2 years and the governor is for 4 years with the option of running for another 4 years.
Sorry, Gary, I had it mixed up. I fergit quite easily these days. Must be my old age. But I do hope for the best for the nation and I'm quite optimistic our nation will eventually comes to terms with it's corrupted politics.
But what I find disturbing is why are so many republicans wanting and doing their best for President Obama to fail in his endeavors of trying to find common sense in today's global political arena. There is, after all, a difference between Obama and GW Bush running the country.
As for being "properly informed", I find it hard to do so with the US corporate news media which is nothing but a right wing propaganda 5th column speaking for the Neo-cons. It is the internet and foreign news coverage that I mostly rely on and look for the truth in today global news.
finally, thanks you for being concern and active in our system of government.
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104. At 2:41pm on 12 Jun 2009, ukwales wrote:
Ref 80,MA2.
There's a man that's bound to be anti
About a post from the land of Dante,
Or any paean
Penned by a European.
The only reason he objected to the metre
Is because he thinks a yard is neater.
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"writing here in the afterglow of a wonderfully inspiring election campaign"
I've been puzzling over this sentence for days. Which "wonderfully inspiring election campaign" would that be? The Lebanese one? The Iranian one?
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121. squirrelist wrote:
"There's a man that's bound to be anti
About a post from the land of Dante,
Or any paean
Penned by a European.
The only reason he objected to the metre
Is because he thinks a yard is neater."
+
Lets hear it for the metric connection counteraction murder stylee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ituOLZWz4W0&feature=related
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There is a theory that the earth has a twin-planet ... straight on the other side of the sun ..... and is inhabited by Marcus and all of his friends.
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119 Gary Just once accept criticism of your dearly beloved and ever vigilant nation. Just once.
You are like a BNP supporter without the racism
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124 LOL
123 Nice tune . Never heard that one before. class
Thanks
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Squirrel I think he was talking about the US elections. (after all despite what the gop tries to make out Obama has only been in for a short while.)
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Oh and bringing up elections here after all we have had for 4 years of electioneering should be Taboo.
I for one am fed up and whichever commentator gets all mid term without talking pregnancy is asking for it.
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119. At 00:56am on 13 Jun 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:
foxtrottango1 (#118) "If most Americans would get properly informed ... "
As it seems you do not know the length of terms of your elected officials, or the proper meaning of "term limits," I suggest that you get yourself "properly informed" before lecturing others.
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Wow Is it because he mentioned america that you are attacking. You have a real problem with any criticism of the states, even when it is an american saying it.
Do you not think that though there maybe some confusion over term limits that the rest of the points made by Foxy are not bad points.
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Ref,121,Squirrelist,
Love it!!
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