Local control and plain English
The Virginia primary (for this year of course not next!) did not disappoint. Not only was the outcome a surprise but the big money outsider lost and lost badly.
Local control - power wielded by local people; interesting lesson for the UK? A correspondent points out to me as well that as well as term limits (which do indeed have their problems) some states have toyed with forcing legislators to write Bills in plain English -- this apparently reduces the power of lobbyists and decreases the value of experience among the political class. La Reyne le veult, as they say in Westminster.
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The "plain English" movement is more an indication of declining literacy in the US than the difficulty of the language of the law, in my opinion.
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"Local control - power wielded by local people; interesting lesson for the UK?"
It appears that with regard to local government, in which candidates are obliged to live in their constituencies, the British public has spoken, as shown by the results of the most recent election: Labour was trounced. If there is to be any effect in Britain, then the change must be that potential Members of Parliament should, at the very least, live in the constituency which the propose to represent. Some of course do so, but not all. For example, how could Tony Blair possibly have known, from personal experience, of life in Sedgefield, when he lived hundreds of miles away in comfortable, upper-middle class Islington? He is the most obvious instance of an MP living away from those he represented. Only when "local people" represent their locality will any meaningful change come about. Of course, British political parties will not allow this to happen since they want "safe" seats for those special few, but if term limits should ever be introduced in the United Kingdom, then residency requirements should, indeed must, go along with it.
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Hopefully a harbinger of things to come. I have a wide circle of acquaintances, of all stripes of opinion, and have yet to encounter one who feels sanguine about the actions or intentions of the Obama administration.
Excepting, of course, some of the hardcore true believers who live to chatter here...
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I think the ' plain English' movement is not only a indication of declining literacy in the U.S.,as suggested,but also an indicator of people's discontent with puzzling laws that affect everyone and few can understand. Politicians are precieved as distanced from people's reality and needs. A pledge for simpler lenguage, like the lenguage of the people, is also a pledge for more understanding of the people. It happens in the U.S, it happens in the U.K, it happens everywhere. It seemes it is one of those things politicians have always had a problem doing: listening to the people the so claim to represent.
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The big difference between the US and Britain in this respect is that the language used in British legislation is tightly controlled by Parliamentary Counsel rather than by politicians or special interests. Parliamentary Counsel will write legislation that meets the policy needs of the Government. If it's amended in Parliament, Parliamentary Counsel will check that the amendments are workable and if not, will propose further amendments to ensure they achieve the intended effect. The end product may not be particularly easy for the general public to understand, but it does generally ensure that legislation is not technically deficient and it reduces the amount of time spent arguing about the intended meaning of the legislation in the courts.
There have been some innovations in the UK - for example, the introduction of explanatory notes for all Government legislation which are written in plain(ish) English. The differences between the US and the UK systems mean that that's a much more appropriate way of addressing the problem in this country.
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#3 OldSouth
"Hopefully a harbinger of things to come. I have a wide circle of acquaintances, of all stripes of opinion, and have yet to encounter one who feels sanguine about the actions or intentions of the Obama administration.
Excepting, of course, some of the hardcore true believers who live to chatter here..."
Then I suggest you get out more. Try meeting new people outside of your "wide" circle. Over 50% of the American votes went to Obama, so obviously there are some that are hopeful of his policies and intentions.
You truly are living in a bubble if you honestly believe no one has faith in Obama. He won the election. That should be indication enough....
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Much legislation that comes out of Washington is actually fairly simple to understand- but also immensely boring. Many include a definitions section to clarify terminology.
A much bigger problem in my mind is the trend in recent decades to roll legislation up in omnibus packages, which are so long that it takes weeks for the specialists and lawyers to parse out the impact for each office, department, or bureau.
Add to this the irresistible pull of add-ons or riders (pork and otherwise) and the result isn't pretty.
But, for the record, "plain English" has been a requirement for the Executive Branch for at least 10-15 years, mandated for all published rules and regulations and other public communications.
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Oh gee, what a concept. Writing laws in plain english so everyone can understand what it is all about. I don't think lawyers are going to want that to happen. Because if laws were written in American Standard English, lawyers wouldn't be able to persue some of their frivolous lawsuits and wouldn't be able to argue the meaning of a particular law.
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Ref 2. David_Cunard
Whilst I understand the sentiments of your post, it does appear to be incorrect. Tony Blair did have a home in his constituency: "Myrobella", Trimdon, Co Durham. He also had a London home as you say. Your point though does raise the practical difficulties for MP's with ministerial or prime ministerial postions. The Prime Minister's constituents might reasonably complain of little presence in the constituency. On the other hand, they are in the advantageous position of being able to raise their concerns and complaints directly with the head of government, instead of a menial backbencher! And unlike the American system, it does bind the Prime Minister to members of the public through a weekly/monthly 'surgery.' On the broader question of electoral and parliamentary reform, almost everything is on the table now.
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#2
Councillors are not required to live in their wards (constituencies). They do however have to be on the electoral register to vote somewhere within the boundaries of the Council of which they are candidates for.
True Tony Blair did not live in Sedgefielsd before he became the MP there but neither did Margaret Thatcher live in Finchley (and am not sure if she ever lived within its boundaries) and David Cameron did not live in Whitney before he was elected as MP for their either.
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ref #6
You are also living in a bubble if you believe the main stream media reporting of Obama. Many of us are upset about the bailout of Chrysler and GM especially when bond holders who should be compensated first are not.
Disclosure I am not a bond holder.
We resent that the UAW is being taken care of as they are one the main reason the auto industry has been destroyed.
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@1 (GAH): Gary, while I definitely agree that literacy in this country is on the decline, I do fault the writers of legislation as well.
I have a better foundation for reading than some folks (son of a print journalist who loved reading and writing, and obligated to read a lot in my profession (electrical engineering)). Despite these advantages, I still find reading proposed or enacted legislation a really hard slog. The largest difficulty is not necessarily the language, however; it's the writing style and formatting, which is not designed for efficiency as much as for tradition, in my opinion.
Changing the paragraph-numbering style, doing away with the indentation rules (which tend to make the documents even harder to read) and ending the idiocy of just stating a word or phrase change to some other existing law (e.g. "In Section 9, subsection (g), paragraph (k), subparagraph (21.j), change the word 'is' to 'might have been'...") rather than restating what the revised law will actually look like, would go a long way towards making legislation more readable.
Interestingly enough, Federal regulations are (at least to me) much easier to read. This may be due to the requirement cited @7 (Via-Media). It would be useful for the Congress to take their own medicine in this regard, as in a lot of others, but I don't see that happening any time soon. We can certainly hope, however.
@4 (deacosta): I think you are on to several things here.
a. If laws are incomprehensible, the average person will (rightly, in my opinion) have no respect for them. How can I / why should I have respect for something that I cannot understand my obligations to?
b. The "omnibus" packages just make this worse, both for the legislators and the rest of them. It's not enough for the legislator to just " read the bill". Remember, in order to understand the bill HE has to do what the average citizen has to do: slog through the stupid formatting and indentation, and figure out all the twisted references to other legislation. If he's given only a day or two to do this kind of review, how can he possibly be ready to rationally decide anything about it? Answer has to be that he can't possibly be ready.
What this suggests, unfortunately, is that the legislators really don't actually read much of any of this. They vote the way their chiefs of staff tell them to vote (based on what their contributors tell the chief of staff), and they recommend changes to the bill-writers based on what the army of attorneys working for their political contributors tell them to recommend. I don't see another way for this to work.
I could be wrong, though.
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#7 Via-Media is close to something: much of the legislation coming out of Congress is indeed long, boring, omnibus and nearly gibberish. My college roommate became legal counsel for several members of the Senate (further, deponent sayeth not), so I know that the language of the laws is complex for the singular reason that we Americans are so litigious that we will sue anything that moves or provides a loophole. Many thousands of words are wasted in the attempt to either close or create little cracks in the laws that lawsuits can sneak through. Thus, the "plain English" movement on this side of the pond is directly tied to our propensity to see our neighbors in court. We created the mess ourselves, friends, it ill behooves us now to turn away from the education resources needed to shovel it away.
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Justin, you often write about events in the US in your blog without explaining what has actually happened. "The Virginia primary" is an example of this. I watch Channel 4 News and Newsnight, listen to the Today programme and read the BBC News website and the Guardian every day, but have absolutely no idea what you're referring to. Please remember your primary audience is a British one. Since the end of the presidential election, events in US politics are no longer covered in Britain to the same extent.
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@6 (St1) / 11 (MK): I have to agree with the bondholders on this score. If it is true that 9/11 did not justify changing our position on the treatment of prisoners of war or torture, it is even more true that this deep recession did not justify upending the legal precedents surrounding the treatment of bondholders.
Nobody ever expected the bondholders to get 100% of their principal back; however, they were entitled to be treated exactly the same as the other parties (the UAW) at the same level in the repayment order. By treating UAW preferentially, the Administration destroyed the precedents that have for a long time governed the bond market. This is going to have some ugly repercussions, as bondholders everywhere now realize that the principal justifications for buying bonds are no longer stable, but instead are now fully subject to the whims of whoever happens to be running the Federal government. Since the bond market is a primary source of long-term funding for government at all levels, it should be very interesting indeed to see how government will compensate for the justified loss of confidence by bondholders.
O has done some good things, and some bad things--just like every previous holder of the office. This has to be chalked up as a very bad thing, and one that will return to bite him in the head later.
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#11
I never insinuated that everyone was happy with Obama, just that there are those that support him, and that OldSouth can't have a particularly wide circle of "acquaintances, of all stripes of opinion, and have yet to encounter one who feels sanguine about the actions or intentions of the Obama administration"
I would think he probably isn't trying to find those that support him, or is misguided in what he sees as a wide group of people with varying opinions. It would appear to be a sweeping statement that holds no real meaning.
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most state legislative bodies have a disproportionate number of lawyers as representatives, so the chance of plain language bills will never pass discussion. Plain language is reserved for terms like "Financial Crisis" and "Bailout." They do not increases taxes anymore, instead, they have "fee increases" or "assessments rise." Corporate interest are not going away and whether they lobby at the statehouse or over dinner the influence of wealth over consumer or citizen well-being will continue. We are always re-constructing systems and passing laws when the problem resides with human behavior. Like a soccer match, the referee can influnce the outcome for the Bookmakers while the fans and players pay the price.
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"La Reyne le veult, as they say in Westminster."
Is that what they say in Westminster? And here I thought all they say is; "Awda! Awda! Mister Prime Minister; I refer the right honorable gentleman to the reply I gave some moments ago."
deacosta;
"I think the ' plain English' movement is not only a indication of declining literacy in the U.S.,as suggested..."
I remind you that the Constitution of the United States was written in plain language that everyone could understand. By contrast, the EU Constitution was deliberately written in a language almost no one could understand. If you do not know what a law says, how can you intelligently support or oppose it let alone comply with it once it is enacted? We have some laws and maybe soon lots of others that require all legal contract documents be written in comprehensible language. This allows people to understand exactly what they are agreeing to when they sign a contract. The legalese argot was invented to obfuscate the meaning of contracts and laws as a way of cheating people. Lawyers are no smarter than other people, just familiar with terminology they invented to hide what they say from everyone except other lawyers. It's a way of generating more business for the profession.
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1. Gary.
Couldn't agree more.
Laws and supporting Regulations are already written in standard English, and usually in far better grammatically structured English than we are accustomed to seeing or hearing in the print and broadcast media.
Legal drafting is not necessarily easy. If you think you can do better, just try it sometime.
And if you think (e.g., 8. SportsFan) that lawyers have a field day with interpretation of statutes as they are presently written, just wait until someone tries to "dumb down" the language.
Be careful what you wish for.
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I thought you said 'Loose control in plain English' not 'Local control and plain English'
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RectoryRoad (#5), that sound like a good system. Note, however, that US laws are not actually written by legislators. They are written by staff, who are professionals at the business of writing laws. A lot of US law is straightforward. Even though each state has its own laws, there are a lot of laws that exist in every state, which are written in similar language. It's the special interest stuff that's complicated. California has a lot of that. The problem isn't the legal jargon, though, in my opinion. Plain English can be confusing, too, if not used carefully.
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#9. Richard_SM: "Whilst I understand the sentiments of your post, it does appear to be incorrect. Tony Blair did have a home in his constituency"
But he wasn't from Sedgefield, was he? Only his childhood in Durham gave him any connection with the area since, after graduation, he became a barrister and worked - and lived - in London. At one time he ran as candidate for Beaconsfield (Buckinghamshire) which is not exactly close to Sedgefield!
#10. magnificentpolarbear: "Councillors are not required to live in their wards (constituencies). They do however have to be on the electoral register to vote somewhere within the boundaries of the Council of which they are candidates for."
Which is why I wrote constituencies, not wards; for the criteria to become a councillor (unfortunately, a word not used in the USA) see here.
"True Tony Blair did not live in Sedgefielsd before he became the MP there but neither did Margaret Thatcher live in Finchley (and am not sure if she ever lived within its boundaries) and David Cameron did not live in Whitney before he was elected as MP for their either."
Which further demonstrates my point!
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arclightt (#15), I don't believe the UAW is receiving favored treatment in this deal.
The Wall Street Journal
The UAW Retirement Fund is also a creditor like the bondholders. Naturally, each group wants the best deal they can get; both are taking a hit. It appears to me that some effort has been made to spread the pain around equitably. Those who are inclined to blame unions will think they aren't taking their share, but that's just one point of view.
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SaintOne (#16) "It would appear to be a sweeping statement that holds no real meaning."
Not only that, but it's redundant. OldSouth (in post #3) has merely restated an opinion that he has made many times before in other threads of this forum. We all know he doesn't like Obama. We don't know if he has any substantive contribution to make on the topic of this thread.
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I find the rejection of the big money candidate by a relatively unknown politician from a rural county fascinating and exciting. I do not consider his win a repudiation of President Obama's policies and suspect it has a lot more to do with the ability of Deeds to propose solutions to local problems than national implications. People in Virginia, particularly those living in the congested North, are very concerned with transportation and tax issues, while those in the South feel disenfranchised and ignored.
On the English topic, I am with Gary, the problem has more to do with declining literacy and plain English comprehension, than with the language used to write legislation. Nevertheless, text written at middle school language level is bound to help the populace at large.
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"14. Richard_Berry: "The Virginia primary" is an example of this. I watch Channel 4 News and Newsnight, listen to the Today programme and read the BBC News website and the Guardian every day, but have absolutely no idea what you're referring to."
Then perhaps you should expand your internet bookmarks to include The New York Times and other American news publications.
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Re # 14
I think I know where you're comingfrom. I live in New York and what happens in Virginia is of little interest too me. I want to here Justin's views on yesterday's shooting in Washington.
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Just before we get into thinking that UK laws are easier to comprehend, remember that in most US states, the law is codified. There is just one written set of laws which are amended by legislation. Much easier to understand - you don't have to remember the 1975 road traffic act or the 1897 carriage of sheep act (ok I made that up Im not a lawyer) has a bearing on what you are doing. See http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html
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As English is one of the least expressive languages in the world, its no wonder the laws are written in gibberish.
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#24 Gary
"We all know he doesn't like Obama."
Don't forget all his friends don't like Obama too. I could be mean, and perhaps a bit rude, by suggesting that (particularly with reference to his username) *hypothetically* these acquaintances he refers to are people he *hypothetically* meets regularly whilst *hypothetically* wearing white sheets.
Just saying.
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O, and did anyone notice Justin's cameo on "Have I Got News For You?" last week? Watch out for the tractor Mr.Webb!!!
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alpha-omega
"As English is one of the least expressive languages in the world, its no wonder the laws are written in gibberish."
So much for English Common Law and the Magna Carta.
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#32. Oh the irony. MA falls for a wind up.
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Plain English is about saying things in a way that is able to be understood. Something I am not good at. but something that could be written into law. the campaign for plain english in the UK is about way more than literacy.
And plain english is not plain american.
Words have a meaning . for example " MAY be"
used here by some who respond with "you said"
It also says sod your stuffy latin version say it in English. or stuff your french way of saying it say it in English.
De jure etc.
Reading these blogs for some time now and living in the states the problem is that Americans think the word can mean whatever they think or choose. (just look at "anti death").
It makes no difference what words are used when the words mean one thing to one person and another thing to someone else.
You can call that literacy but that is not what it is.
It is the American desire for everything to be convenient or easy.
It also is related to the startling concept of removing latin from the text.
(because believe it or not that is not English)
The lack of comprehension has been a big issue with me and other posters.
There are numerous examples of where some nit picker has tried to pick to find a tight weave obstructing their way.
Now I would not say they are illiterate, they write here and sometimes get close to the mark.
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alpha your derision of the English language is probably not appropriate or true;)
"29. At 4:32pm on 11 Jun 2009, alphamiguel wrote:
As English is one of the least expressive languages in the world, its no wonder the laws are written in gibberish."
there is american
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UAW workers went to work and did their job. for which they should be paid.
Those that were gambling?
those on the stock market etc were gambling, they should not be paid if it is one or other.
Why do people that gamble deserve the reward over those that stayed the course worked hard gave years to the dreams of others.
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As a Virginia, who voted in yesterday's primary to select the Democratic candidate for governor, I can assure you that Creigh Deed's victory was hardly a surprise. I voted for him.
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I'm glad none of our laws were written in Spanish. To my ears, hearing Spanish spoken sounds like a bunch of clucking chickens. French sounds to my ears like people speaking through their noses (and I speak some French.) German and Yiddish sounds like people trying to spit up phlegm. Italian is pleasing to the ear. Perhaps that's why it is the true language of music. English makes the most sense. That's why it's being adopted as the universal language around the world. That and so people don't have to read subtitles or be bothered by voices that aren't in sync with lips moving when watching Hollywood movies and TV shows.
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What the heck is McAuliffe running for high political office HIMSELF ??
That is surely a waste of time, when his political skills are several notches up the Richter scale and he could, with a bit of effort, be the American equivalent of Lord Mandelson of Foy and Hartlepool, First Secretary of State etc. etc. and be 'prime minister' [or in his case 'president' ] in all but name ??
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.. GM customers can apply for a free Headdress
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/41/83316553_caccd72625.jpg
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29. Alpha.
You may need to take a deeper draught from that spring.
Actually, English is one of the most powerfully expressive languages. It has a polyglot history (Latin, Greek, German, Norse, Pict, French - and that's only before we started stealing words from the Spanish, Turks, Hindus, Cree, Maoris ...) that permits almost infinite variety in the possible shades of meaning. It is an easy language to learn well enough to live. It is an extremely difficult language to master.
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Ref 22. David_Cunard
Are you suggesting prospective candidates should 'reside before they stand' or 'have resided at some stage' in the constituency? Not sure what you mean by 'from.'
There's a long list of parliamentary/electoral reform issues the public and media have put up for consideration, but that isn't one that I've seen. Neither does it seem very practical. Take Blair's case as an example: he was born in Edinburgh, moved to Australia, returned to Glasgow, then lived in Durham for 11-12 years, not far from Sedgefield. Gap year in London, before studying at Oxford. Pupil barrister in London. After marriage, Cherie and Tony lived in Hackney (London) working as barristers by day, and involved in the voluntary sector and local politics outside of work. Decided they could only achieve real change by one or both becoming an MP.
Cherie tried first for selection in Crosby. Six months later Tony was selected for Beaconsfield, knowing he couldn't win as it had been a Conservative safe seat since Disraeli. Tony then tried for Mitcham and failed. The following year he tried for Bermondsey. They both tried for Oxford East. Tony tried for Middlesborough and failed, whilst Cherie applied for Thanet and was selected. Sedgefield came up as a new constituency following boundary changes and Tony was selected just as Thatcher called the General Election in June 1983, giving him just four weeks to campaign. Cherie got 12% of the votes in Thanet. Tony was elected on an 8000 majority. Tony immediately gave up his 80,000/year London barrister career for 20,000/year as an MP, and bought "Myrobella" in Trimdon, just outside Sedgefield the following month.
I think that asking candidates to move house and possibly give up a lucrative career, in the chance they might win a seat is expecting too much. As you may have noted, they might both have been elected, and 'Parliamentary couples' are not unusual. Many people want MP's to have had some experience in other walks of life before becoming an MP, and in some cases that's only possible in London for those with high potential. As I said before, I understand the rationale, but we might be making it too difficult by insisting on constituency residency before they are elected. In any event, voters do have the choice at the election should they not like the fact a candidate doesn't live in the constituency.
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40, Rootical, and all this time when I heard of car dealers talking
about "putting a dress on the customer," I thought that they were talking
about something else entirely. Thanks for clearing all that up.
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41, IF, you Canadians are so spoiled up there! Apparently, libations well
up from the ground in the GWN in the form of springs. Here, we have to pay
for the privilege of imbibing. And, in the UK, apparently, they have to pay
their landlord if they wish to partake.
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Richard_SM (#42), that's a remarkable tale to an American. Here, we use the term "carpetbaggers" for such people, although they must establish residency before running (our politicians do not "stand"), which limits it somewhat.
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@32 - Marcus.
Magna Carta was written in Latin. I'm surprised the title wasn't a hint.
-----------------
Valhallagram:
Marcus Aurelius: You said he was a great philosopher!
Churchill: I may have misrepresented that, somewhat.
Marcus Aurelius: Is that what the modern world thinks of me?
Churchill: Not entirely. You did get played by Richard Harris.
Marcus Aurelius: While some barbarian plumber does this to my good name! Hardly a consolation, is it?
Churchill: I hear they almost cast Ben Affleck.
Marcus Aurelius: As me? ...well, obviously, bad is a relative term...
Churchill: Stoicism, that's the ticket.
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#38. MarcusAureliusII: "English makes the most sense. That's why it's being adopted as the universal language around the world."
So pleased to read that you did not write "American". Yes, it's English, English, English!
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It's a good thing that we didn't standardize on Scottish.
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The Magna Carta is one of those documents that everyone has heard of but few Americans have read. It's kind of a mixed bag, I think. I would say it is important more for what it did in reigning in royal power generally, rather than for its specific provisions.
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#42. Richard_SM: "Are you suggesting prospective candidates should 'reside before they stand' or 'have resided at some stage' in the constituency?"
Yes. Absolutely.
"I think that asking candidates to move house and possibly give up a lucrative career, in the chance they might win a seat is expecting too much."
Why? Your example, Tony Blair, did pretty well by becoming an MP, far more so than had he remained a lawyer. The story goes that Mr Blair (I don't know him, so can't call him "Tony") was more interested in becoming Prime Minister than forging a party alliance. No American President takes his holidays with rock stars or accepts freebies left and right: greed appears to be one of his less endearing attributes.
"we might be making it too difficult by insisting on constituency residency before they are elected."
The point I was making refers to Justin's suggestion (above) "Local control - power wielded by local people; interesting lesson for the UK?" If American legislators can reside in the area which they represent - and it's a far, far larger country - then surely they can in the UK - after all, England itself is barely the size of Southern California.
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"The Virginia primary (for this year of course not next!)" was a major disappointment, essentially a non-event. "Not only was the outcome" not much of a surprise - a Democrat won, yawn, another machine party cog - but the outcome of the outcome was perhaps even less of a surprise. Incredibly enough, a grand whopping total of 6.293% of Virginia's 5,071,226 total voters bothered to show up at the polls on Tuesday. Close to 95% of total voters in the state stayed away! And yet the ridiculous spin put on the story by corporate media propagandists - and certain foreign correspondents - is rubbish about "Local control - power wielded by local people" and "the big money outsider lost and lost badly"!. Even the obscure, faceless candidate that won got less than half the miniscule total of votes in the three-way race. Big money OWNS the system - it doesn't matter which machine candidate wins - the System stays the same. And the "local power" of 6% of the state's voter population (or the 3% that voted for R.Creigh Deeds) isn't going to make a dime's worth of difference! So is there a very "interesting lesson for the UK?" America's vaunted 'democracy' is a sham - so be very careful to take the glowing hyperbole of American cheerleader foreign correspondents with a massive shaker of salt!
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I don't think plain English is from a decline in the understanding of language but an increase in lawyers as politicians.
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51, Doug, this was just a primary. That's an election between party candidates
to see who will be put on the ticket in the next election, which is open to
all voters.
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@49 - By "reigning in royal power" you obviously mean "giving it to a different bunch of murderous aristocrats".
John signed it at swordpoint and then immediately reneged, going on a bit of a rampage until his death in 1216. That damned document started a war, killed thousands, caused untold strife and was an attempt by European powers to control the English crown. It's funny what people laud, isn't it?
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# 6 SaintOne wrote: [addressed to OldSouth]
"Then I suggest you get out more. Try meeting new people outside of your "wide" circle. Over 50% of the American votes went to Obama, so obviously there are some that are hopeful of his policies and intentions./You truly are living in a bubble if you honestly believe no one has faith in Obama. He won the election. That should be indication enough...."
Not really - it's not unknown for a pol to win an election and quickly lose popularity.
I'd have thought more relevant is that in most polls [or at least ones I've seen], Obama's popularity remains high - eg Gallup, here - http://www.gallup.com/poll/113980/gallup-daily-obama-job-approval.aspx - which has him at 60% approval and 33% disapproval.
Clearly all OldSouth's friends and acquaintances are among the 33%.....
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# 46 Dark Side of the Goon wrote:
The Valhallagram.
Most droll!
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# 42 Richard_SM wrote:
"I think that asking candidates to move house and possibly give up a lucrative career, in the chance they might win a seat is expecting too much. As you may have noted, they might both have been elected, and 'Parliamentary couples' are not unusual. Many people want MP's to have had some experience in other walks of life before becoming an MP, and in some cases that's only possible in London for those with high potential. As I said before, I understand the rationale, but we might be making it too difficult by insisting on constituency residency before they are elected. In any event, voters do have the choice at the election should they not like the fact a candidate doesn't live in the constituency."
I'd have to say, I would agree with this as opposed to D Cunard's viewpoint. AFAIK it's not uncommon for would be candidates to have to apply to run in a number of constituencies before they get one, and it's also not unknown for them to have to run in one or 2 seats where their party has little or any chance before they get a chance at a safer seat. [I know that happened to M Thatcher as I saw a dramatisation recently - v well made.]
I'm also sure that local candidates will generally have an advantage both in getting a nomination and getting elected.
I think my fundamental doubt is similar to my doubt re term limits - ie you're telling people who they can and cannot vote for.
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Ref 51, Douglas
"Not only was the outcome" not much of a surprise - a Democrat won, yawn, another machine party cog..."
Bear in mind that what Deed won was the Democratic party primary, not the governorship of the state of Virginia. In other words, he was chosen by Virginia Democrats over McAuliffe and Moran as their nominee to run against the Republican nominee running for governor.
McDonnell, the Republican nominee is a conservative with strong ties to religious broadcaster Pat Robertson, and ran unopposed for the GOP nomination.
Turnout during midterm elections is never impressive and it is not representative of what happens during presidential elections. As far as Deeds nomination being a harbinger of predictable Democratic victories, I wouldn't hold my breath on that, there is a good chance McDonnell will win the Virginia governor's race next year by a comfortable margin.
Our system may not be perfect, and the influence of special interests on government decisions is, indeed, disturbing but most of us believe it is much better than the parliamentary systems, monarchies, totalitarian, and non-secular regimes that govern so many countries around the world.
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Goony Bird;
"Magna Carta was written in Latin. I'm surprised the title wasn't a hint."
Maybe so but nobody understood it until it was translated into English. Goony bird, do you speak Latin?
Canard;
There are many variants of English. The American variant we call the American language will be the one universally adopted although there will be some local patois and idioms. Even now, Britain has seemed to change for the better in that regard. We don't here thousand-million, petrol, loo, lift, lorry, or all that other Brit-speak jargon except in old movies. Now can you say D-E-R-V-T-I-V-E?
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1, Gary.
"The "plain English" movement is more an indication of declining literacy in the US than the difficulty of the language of the law, in my opinion."
I don't agree. What they gain with convoluted English is obscurity, which is probably their purpose. I had been friends with two very well-known attorneys. They wrote their briefs in clear English. They felt that an educated person of normal intelligence should be able to understand legal papers. I am not an attorney. They would have me read their briefs, and if I did a double-take at an expression, they rewrote it. It takes intelligence to expess yourself clearly. And - it takes a mastery of the English language. These people had both. A simple rule is to use words of Anglo-Saxon origin where possible, in preference to those of Latin derivation. Some people circumnavigate the globe. I sail around the world.
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55, J-I-D, count me in the 33%. I'm not willing to give up my guns or my
religion.
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The doublespeak double standard of America. Obama said about Reverend Wright basically "one of my closest friends, and spiritual adviser."
Reverend Wright said a day ago when asked if he has seen Obama "The Jews won't let me see him." The radio was playing this for the last two days. Along with David Lettermans saying in public that Alex Rodrigues the ballplayer knocked up Sarah Palins (Republican Vice Presidential running mate of McCain) teenage daughter (14 years old). This is English in the worst scenario. When people close to the President make questionable remarks, and when children are attacked. I remember Chelsea Clinton being mentioned like that, the person was fired. But nothing is said of these remarks, no outrage, no compassion. When radicals and talkshow hosts make inapproriate comments. Their isn't a blip in the news. Maybe Gobbels is in charge? Sotomayer has also made wild comments well documented, but is being pushed thru the Senate as quick as a used car sale. Trying to ram thru procedures quickly. Rather than a appropriate amount of time to ask a few questions concerning writings and comments made and contained in records. Lastly a US Soldier was buried killed in the US by a Muslim convert, did anyone apologise for this heinous act? Oh, thats right Obama was receiving a medal from Saudi Arabia. Lastly in plain English the US will pay $12 million per head for the 17 Guantanomo detainees sent to a former US possesion, in the closing of this base, any bids from other governments to take the rest?
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ref #23
According to bankrupcy laws bond holders claim taker precedence.
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Letterman and class have yet to be introduced. His comment about a 14 yr old girl was despicable and it is sad to see so little condemnation.
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54. At 10:01pm on 11 Jun 2009, Dark Side of the Goon wrote:
"It's funny what people laud, isn't it?"
Especially here. You're quite right though; it had nowt to do with ordinary folk then, and I've never really understood why people think it was. It was probably drafted in French in smoke-filled castles after a hard day of serf-baiting in its first stages anyway.
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lostallyourmarbles;
"Some people circumnavigate the globe. I sail around the world."
Which one, Iranus?
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Ref 62, American
I find criticisms, attacks, and jokes directed at relatives, and especially the children of politicians and other prominent citizens, highly inappropriate. It doesn't matter whether Letterman was referring to the 18 or 14 year old daughter of Sarah Palin, he should apologize profusely and unambiguously and must refrain from doing that again.
I think it is fair to point out, however, that the main beneficiaries of this controversy are Sarah Palin, who will be able to claim victimhood, and Bristol who has become a national public figure on the issue of teen pregnancies. Being on the spotlight is not a bad thing for public figures, particularly when the targets are women and the attacker is a 62 year old entertainer known for crossing the line.
Again, I think Letterman blew it and if he does it again he should follow Shuster's path.
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44 Guns
Although my inlaws have a spring, it is not the one to which I refer, and it is not in the "GWN". According to wiki, the one to which I refer is in Greece:
First used by Alexander Pope (1688 - 1744) in An Essay on Criticism, 1709:
"A little learning is a dangerous thing; drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again."
Pieria was a region of ancient Macedonia, the location of Mount Olympus, believed to be the home and the seat of worship of Orpheus and the Muses, the deities of the arts and sciences.
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seanspa (#64), he was joking about the older daughter, but made a mistake in that it was the younger one who was in New York. I understand that he aplogized for that mistake.
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Dark .. (#54), actually, I meant "rein in." That was an appropriate slip. I'm surprised no one called me out on it.
Your remark has me interested. I think I'll look for something to read on that era.
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seanspa (#64), update. I just saw a synopsis of the Letterman-Palin flap on tabloid tv. Letterman is a pro with a big staff. I think he may have made a mistake about which daughter was in town, but there is no excuse for it. If he knew it was the younger daughter, it was over the line, even for him. Anyway, he is in damage control mode, and Palin and friends are having a ball beating him up. That's what happens when you live on the edge.
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#59. MarcusAureliusII: "There are many variants of English."
Stating the obvious as if it were some new revelation. If you had ever been to England (let alone Scotland, Wales or Ulster) you would know that even in its country of origin there are local variations. Not forgetting South Africa, Australia, New Zealand and India, all of which have localised pronunciation and vocabulary. That's the sheer brilliance of the English language, it's so adaptable.
"Now can you say D-E-R-V-T-I-V-E?"
Did you mean derivative? DERV is a diesel fuel.
#60. allmymarbles: "Some people circumnavigate the globe. I sail around the world."
Another one: American seaside signs would read "Access to the Shoreline" while the British version would simply be "To the Beach"!
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P.S. Where has the Preview box gone? It was here not long ago, but has disappeared. Please bring it back!
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60. At 11:03pm on 11 Jun 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
" A simple rule is to use words of Anglo-Saxon origin where possible, in preference to those of Latin derivation. Some people circumnavigate the globe. I sail around the world."
I believe that was Churchill's advice - use the Anglo-Saxon words whenever possible. - errrr - whenever you can.
I work with federal regulations also, some are well written, some are not. I think it is better to write simply and clearly, and it will help keep English alive. The best writers of every age wrote the best ideas and the clearest style. I was raised on heavy doses of Latin and Latinate English - you can't guess how hard it has been for me to write this. But if you've read my stuff, you know already.
KScurmudgeon
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68, IF, actually I caught the reference, but could not help poking fun in a
metaphorical way.
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Yikes!!! Ya'll talk real purdy! Are there english majors, posting here? If a law is written to state a plain concept, then confusion is reduced! Plain english is NOT about the level of education. It is about the elimination of loopholes.
Local control: I seem to remember something in the American constitution stating all other rights and responsibilities belong to the states. What ever happened to that one, was it repealed under Bush? 1 or 2?
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In the work culture of Trans Atlantic Tele-Conference Business Meetings :
Americans are better at showing off and hiding the fact that have not done their work
English are more humble and quieter and honest about the fact that they have not done their work
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Americans are much louder and more vocal than the Brits during sex apparently
.. and here is the corroborating evidence my friends
[Very Rude XXX / Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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For David Cunard: Just so we do.not confuse our American friends, MPs are NOT compelled to live in their constituencies. I have two MPs since I live in two places but am registered only on one, and neither of my MPs lives in their constituency. Most MPs but not all have offices in their constituency and they share an office in the House of Commons. MP's have an allowance for office expenses including staff.
American friends used to the generous support for Members of Congress and state legislators may be surprised how modest we are,as we Brits are surprise at unregulated election expenditure by candidates for office in the USA.
However it is nice to see cash doesn't always win
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You could also say that americans are not so good / hot / proper mathematically
(i.e. at doing their sums)
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Re Post 48. gunsandreligion
"Set phasers tae malky" Pure deid brilliant, so it wiz. Goan yersel big man.
Yir aw dae-in no tae bad !!
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# 61 gunsandreligion wrote:
[Referring to the Gallup poll that has Obama at 60% approval and 33% disapproval]
"55, J-I-D, count me in the 33%. I'm not willing to give up my guns or my
religion."
Free country, which means you are free to disapprove of the performance of any elected oficial, and to say so long and loud.
Having said that, if you have links to any commitments by Obama to [a] seize your guns and/or [b] change your religion, I'd love to see them.
[Is he planning to bring in enforced compulsory atheism or enforced compulsory Islam?]
Of course, perhaps I'm being hopelessly naive - he wouldn't SAY he's going to ban guns and religion - he'll just do it. Sneakily.
"I'm not willing to give up my guns or my religion."
Well - I'm glad you can at least see that there's a difference between the two...
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# 62 AmericanGrizzly wrote:
"The doublespeak double standard of America."
Indeed.
"I remember Chelsea Clinton being mentioned like that, the person was fired. But nothing is said of these remarks, no outrage, no compassion."
As I recall, Sen J McCain, [R] made a joke in 1998 along the lines of "Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father." [He subsequently apologised.] Chelsea Clinton would have been c 18. Bit of a 'three-fer' that one - insult the appearance of 2 women, and get in a dig at the [alleged] sexual preference of one.
So - was the Senator "fired" from the GOP??
"Lastly a US Soldier was buried killed in the US by a Muslim convert, did anyone apologise for this heinous act?"
Who exactly did you expect to apologise? The murderer?
If he had been Catholic, would you expect the Pope to apologise? If Buddhist, the Dalai Lama?
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Ref 62. AmericanGrizzly
You wrote: "a US Soldier was buried killed in the US by a Muslim convert, did anyone apologise for this heinous act?"
Q) Who should have apologised?
You wrote : "the US will pay $12 million per head for the 17 Guantanomo detainees sent to a former US possesion in the closing of this base, any bids from other governments to take the rest?." [sic]
It's just been revealed the US has agreed to pay Bermuda $200 million dollars to take four detainees. That's $50 million per detainee. We don't know what deals have gone on behind the scenes in the past, but extrapolated, 750 detainees might have cost USA $37,500 million dollars. And it doesn't end there. There are a further 20,000 detainees held at US Off-shore Detention Camps: apparently Diego Garcia is one. Bush certainly owes the American public some explanations, preferably with his right hand raised and two guards either side!
Extrapolated for 750
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Ref 50. David_Cunard
You seem to have lost your point and gone off on several tangents.
I don't know who American Presidents take holidays with, but American Senators, who compare to the subject of MP's, have certainly accepted 'freebie' holidays and the like: John McCain just one example. So that point hasn't been made, but wasn't relevant to the subject of MP's residency.
Ref your final paragraph. Imagine dividing your example of Southern Caifornia into 646 constituencies and expecting every political candidate to live in each division before they are elected. As you say, UK is geographically smaller. It's not an essential prerequisite, and I haven't seen it on any of the numerous reform 'wish lists' being publicised at the moment.
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One the subject of elections, what happened after the sham of the US Presidential elections in 2000? Florida; people purged from voting lists; voting systems etc. I read that electronic voting was introduced in the aftermath, but then a number of campaign groups emerged claiming the system could be easily tampered with. And there was also the fact that election officials are not 'non-partisan' in USA which was a revelation in the UK. Has anything changed?
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Richard_SM # 84
Any possible advance on that figure of 50 million per prisoner?
Just a 13 million population here, and I believe we have offered to accept 17 of the "chinese" ones.Do they have 2 left feet?
Sounds pretty cheap when you think that even our little boys who play football are worth 80 million a go.
With the value of prisoners going up, do you think I should ask Socrates our PM, to hold out until they make us a better offer?
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to gary_a_hill,
How many ordinary people know the meaning of the phrase "due diligence"? I've written million dollar contracts & applied due diligence to others. Some times it is nearly impossible decipher what the words mean. Before you decry America's decreasing literacy perhaps you should check which the way English is going in Blighty?
BTW I live in Canada or Canader if you prefer to pronounce it that way. Like it or not American English is different than ours or yours.
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GnR I would point out that the man walked into the building with a "long gun"
It was obvious right then that at some stage apart from the racial motive this freak von brownstain was into gun rights.
The statement of carrying a long gun was "My right"
the allegation that he said "this is the only way you will get my guns" supports my initial thought.
To continue to keep insisting your basic right to threaten others with a lethal weapon will be taken away (sorry right to bare arms) is part of what feeds these extremists.
Unless you think that is good I would suggest not pretending this is or was an issue.Obama is not threatening your right to defend yourself.
But maybe he should. What with a decline in America that seems reminiscent of the early days of communism's collapse. The people not willing to make the change because old ideas were strong and Gorby was seen as a "appeaser of the west".
Interesting bit in BBC news this morning on it. reminded me of america and their attitude to the changes Obama is trying to bring.
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86 richard funny that non-partisan phrase. officials were ripping Obama signs out of the ground before the elections saying they are too close to the polling station. but not removing Big Chips's signs.
they described them selves as non partisan I am sure. And with the vagueness of the american culture ,like, they could be right. seeing as words mean nothing in the states.
TV here are going digital. satellite service ads claimed " why put up with the hassle of change over just get satellite and no worries""no need to get a converter box"
Now they say we are going to charge you $10 a month extra for a converter box for out analog to digital conversion. Oh it's not the same box as the rest use for over the air broadcasts.This is a digital satellite converter box "
But here only a few are suing. and they have to waste their time going to court to prove that the companies LIED.
Sorry not a lie what is that word that was used about GW speaking.
"factual inaccuracies" " misspoke" etc.
8 years we had TV every night from the white house and we got lies dressed up in the misuse of the English language.
Clever in most cases, relying on the American people taking it at face value even though the words much of the time actually did say what the admin was thinking. There were some of us that were not surprised to see that there they didn't lie as much as people thought but they told the truth in a manner so as people missed the important bits.
Bit like some of the more distractive bloggers.
..
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Ref 62. AmericanGrizzly
On the subject of the remaining Guantanamo detainees, America should show the courage of it's convictions.
USA should allow all the remaining detainees to take up residence in USA and disperse them in the Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld home cities. Give the detainees total freedom with full citizenship, give them all a gun each, and say $5 million dollars each to start a new life. If Bush, Cheney or Rumsfeld get shot, then the detainee was probably a terrorist anyway and you can lock them away legitimately. Or they might have been innocent and have still decided to trade their freedom for vengeance, but it's no great loss: casualties of war. On the other hand, they might just adapt to American society and you'll hear no more from them.
If you do subsequently get a big explosion somewhere: OK, every theory has it's flaws! But my guess: given the choice between taking out the Sears Tower or Bush, it's a no brainer.
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Ref 87. watermanaquarius
For $50 million, 35 million Euros, or 30 million pounds I'm thinking of applying to take one of those innocent detainees myself. One can come and live with me. I'll fit whatever security requirements are necessary, guarantee his movements, and provide food.
Now what to spend the other $49 million on? :-)
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91 Nice Idea. I'll go for that.
very Solomon esque.
but what did sears do to you;)
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92 think any of them might be metallurgically inclined, I'll take one.
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Ref 62. AmericanGrizzly
"...a US Soldier was buried killed in the US by a Muslim convert, did anyone apologise for this heinous act?"
A deranged criminal, who happened to be a Muslim born in the USA, murdered a US military recruiter in cold blood. Timothy McVeigh, a Catholic born in New York, slaughtered 168 people in Oklahoma City.
The solution does not involve apologies, what is needed is action to eradicate the threat people like those above and the nutcase that murdered a security guard in the Holocaust Museum in DC are symptomatic of fanatism influenced by racism, cultural prejudice, intolerance, and anti-government beliefs.
These people, their supporters, and those that facilitate their ability to carry out crimes like these are as dangerous to our national security as the extremists that train in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. It is time for our government to worry less about people who smoke a joint and show more concern for a situation that could easily lead to anarchy, violence, and civil unrest.
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He's some plain english
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EtSPUAFkeg
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ALL HAIL ST dominick
" as dangerous to our national security as the extremists that train in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, and Pakistan"
More they don't have so far to go to take their bombs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOT322nAt2A&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1QnVBjwLQ0&feature=related
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Richard_SM (#86) "what happened after the sham of the US Presidential elections in 2000?"
The 2000 election was not a sham. The way the election in Florida was conducted was something of a fiasco, however. Florida has made several changes to equipment and procedures. Punch-card ballots are no longer used in Florida, although the problems were not due to the equipment, but to the design of the ballot and the procedures for dealing with "hanging chads." Equipment varies by county; some use optical scan, which is what my county in California uses. This is a good system.
Your post suggests that there is a problem generally with election integrity in the US. That is not so. I have been voting for over 40 years, and have never participated in an election in which there was any controversy about the legitimacy of the result. The problems in the Florida election of 2000 were exacerbated by the fact that the vote was very close in that state. Normally, the vote differential is much larger than the error term, so errors are not significant. See, however, the 2008 Minnesota election. They are still arguing over who was elected to the Senate.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9_kahA_wQo&feature=dir
plain english or bad grammar.
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north_of_49 (#88), I work in a small business, and know several small businessmen, and we all know what "due diligence" means when the need for it has arisen. Most people don't need to know, but if someone is buying a small business for the first time and has never encountered the term "due diligence" before, they will learn what it means pretty quick. If they don't, they are not competent to run a business.
This is a good example of the importance of legal jargon. It would be cumbersome to have to explain this concept in every context in which it comes up. It is far better and easier to use a well-understood term which covers it.
I don't have any argument with Canadians (or anyone else) about their variant of English. Why would you think I do?
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#79. cping500: "MPs are NOT compelled to live in their constituencies."
I know, but they should be. Both United States Representatives and Senators must be residents of the states which they represent. In California, a candidate for Assemblyman must be a registered voter and have one year of residency in the legislative district which he or she intends to represent. Should be the same in the UK if "local people" are to be involved in the legislative process.
#85. Richard_SM: "I don't know who American Presidents take holidays with"
I was referring to the former head of the British government to show how well he had done by abandoning his career as a lawyer and becoming an MP. The President of the United States would not demean himself by taking vacations with pop stars and the like. With regard to residency requirements of US members of Congress, the equivalent of the Houses of Parliament, see above. And before you correct me, I am aware of the differences between the Upper Houses of the two countries.
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ref #95
The U.S soldier who was killed by a moslem extremist who no more represent moslems than the caucasian who killed an african American guard at the Holocost museum represent all caucasians.
The press coverage of the soldier did not recieve anywhere the coverage of Dr Tiller and was a more tragic act.
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Richard_SM # 92
Thank you for the breakdown into Pounds Dollars and Euros.
I forgot that "the little boy" sold for 80 million Pounds sterling and not US Dollars.
Gone into thinking Euros here, and all the rest is just monopoly play money these days. Still minor problems with the language but as you noticed, major problems with exchange rates.
Put me down for two of them, or any three for the price of two if that is all thats available
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkcneVlj0HU
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101 good laugh there DC.
The president (I assume Bush) that took the tiger on holiday did so because he was sucking up to all and tony was unable to holiday elsewhere because all them drunk tourists would recognise him and beat him up for starting a war.
He did do well. but term limits would not have stopped him making money. they would have just allowed him to do it earlier.
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#102
So your saying someone who worked for a "Jewish" museum got too much attention?
Hmmm, that's strange. Surely you would be up in arms if there was no coverage. In fact, in all the reports I have seen in the news, there was no mention of the victim being african-american, only that he worked at a holocaust museum.
Think about it.
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st1, all the news reports I have seen about the museum shooting have shown a picture of the victim. A number have also shown interviews with his family. OK, it helps watching tv rather than radio, but it was clear that the poor guy was african-american.
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SD
"It is time for our government to worry less about people who smoke a joint and show more concern for a situation that could easily lead to anarchy, violence, and civil unrest."
In case it hadn't occurred to you, the guy who smokes a joint and then drives the school bus with your kid on it is also a threat to your security. I assume that because you made the point the way you did, you are probably a pot smoker. Don't worry, you won't wind up in GITMO just for that. Just a normal prison when they catch you.
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Ref 102, Magic
"The press coverage of the soldier did not recieve anywhere the coverage of Dr Tiller and was a more tragic act."
All of these murders had similar soverage where I live. In my book, all were tragic and symptomatic of serious cultural problems aggravated by the ability of radical elements to buy lethal weapons.
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#107
Yes they showed a picture, but they didn't make a point of saying he was African-American. All the headlines were along the lines of "Holocaust museum security guard killed", then it went on about how the suspect was a neo-nazi.
It didn't say "African-American scurity guard killed".
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82, J-I-D, my moniker is actually intended to be somewhat humorous.
Besides, with the Democrats' philosophy of big government, they don't
have to take away my right to bear arms to take away my freedom.
89, 14, some nut job with a gun who murders people does not mean that ordinary
citizens do not have a right to defend themselves. If he didn't have a gun,
he would have used something else. Although, to be honest, I feel just as
threatened by the far right (and left) as I do by a hoodlum on the street.
But, I don't believe that we should give up any of our basic rights to
fight them, and that includes my opposition to many elements of the Patriot Act.
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ref #110
It is a tragic irony that the dead guard was African American.
Jews and Blacks are the two most persecuted ethnic groups in the world. When violence, discrimination is used against them, much of the world takes a pass in it's outrage
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ref #101
President Obama can vacation with whomever he wants. I suggest however that he avoid actors who support our enemies like Sean Penn and Danny Glover
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Ref 101. David_Cunard
Your posts are getting more discursive, nevertheless I'll address your points:
If there's something demeaning about the British Prime Minister renting a villa from someone in the entertainment industry, then what does that say about a country that actually elected a 'B' rated actor as Commander-in-Chief and put him in the charge of the country's nuclear arsenal?
You assert, "The President of the United States would not demean himself" by renting a pop star's villa. But you forget to mention they demean themselves in much more sordid ways with young girls around different parts of the White House.
According to Monica:
In the private study of the Oval Office.
While Bill Clinton was on the phone with a member of Congress.
In a White House study.
In the Oval Office itself.
In the hallway by the private study.
In the hallway near the study of the Oval Office.
In a room near the Oval Office; where the blue dress stains 'happened.'
Renting Robin Gibb's or Sir Cliff Richard's villa, which is what he did, not holidaying with them as you suggest, seems mild by comparison.
You're dismayed about Tony Blair's association with pop stars. Association is one thing, but isn't actually electing pop stars as Congressmen in California much more alarming, Sonny? Moreover, I understand you're just about to put a comedian in the Senate.:-)
I don't think we want to be copying any of America's ideas about who should be involved in the legislative process. I think we'll stick with allowing political candidates to 'run' for any constituency without the restrictions you suggest. Look what happened in America!
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Ref 98. Gary_A_Hill
You claimed: "The 2000 election was not a sham."
But you didn't know who you'd actually elected as President of the United States - and still don't know.
Bush was put in the White House by just five judges, whilst the guy who might have actually won the Presidential election of 2000 was running round campaigning for climate change. Might have better the other way around. Al Gore could have been implementing policies to clean up the atmosphere, give the auto industry new hope with 'greener' cars, and make America energy independent. Meanwhile, runner-up Bush could have been out campaigning for America to go to war and seeking changes in the law to allow torture.
I call that a "sham." If anything, it's an understatement.
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Richard_SM (#115) " ... what does that say about a country that actually elected a 'B' rated actor as Commander-in-Chief and put him in the charge of the country's nuclear arsenal?"
To be fair, Ronald Reagan was elected President on his record as Governor of California.
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4 the Guns and Religion Gunman (aka guns and roses)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlP2lJQ1QTo
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ref #106
No I did not say that and you know it.
I said compare to Tiller the soldier got almost no press coverage.
Tiller got more press than the museum killing as well.
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Marcus:
So I speak Latin? enough to "nucleus cetum ex orbita" on the basis that "unus caetis maximus".
If Magna Carta had been translated into English, it would have been into Middle English. It would have looked similar to: "And it was don in tho daies, a maundement wente out fro the emperour August, thatal the world schulde be discryued". Which, since it's in English, you certainly recognise. In case your Middle English isn't quite what it was, I picked a Bible quote.
Also, American English isn't going to be a lingua fraca. The next dominant language is going to be an amalgam, and i suspect we'll see a mishmash of BRIC nations languages meld with english.
American English is rapidly becoming Spanish anyway - and no bad thing, that.
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Richard_SM (#116), A "sham" is an imitation masquerading as something it is is not, so you are saying we did not have a genuine election in 2000. In fact, we had 51 elections, and only the one in Florida was called into serious question. Even that election was not a "sham" in the true definition of the word, however the recounting was a fiasco, in my opinion, because the rules for recounting were confusing and inconsistent, and the process too slow and limited by an arbitrarily short deadline.
As to whether the result was correct, this is a complicated question. There is an entire book written on the subject:
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/presssite/metadata.epl?mode=synopsis&bookkey=33294
Have you read it? I have. It is not at all clear who would have prevailed had the U. S. Supreme Court decided to stay out of it. It is likewise not clear whether the result had they stayed out of it would have been correct, either. The "correct" result is in doubt because the vote in Florida was close, not because the Court intervened.
The strength of our system is that we worked through this difficulty without crisis and moved on. Whatever one thinks of the justice of the election of Bush, his election was legitimate because the U. S. Congress, which is the ultimate judge of presidential elections, said so.
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115 RSM
You've actually made the case that having a philanderer in the White House isn't ncessarily so bad. Not exactly unheard of, either - men in positions of power often have large apetites. Didn't do the world any harm. Darn sight better than what followed. But which one had to face impeachment hearings?
Go figure.
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ref #121
There are similarities between FL and 2008 Minesota Senatorial race.
The Republican won and the Democratic local boards did selective recounting.
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118, Reggae, can't we all just get along?
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115, Richard, I agree that talking with a member of Congress is probably
immoral.
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#115. Richard_SM: "If there's something demeaning about the British Prime Minister renting a villa from someone in the entertainment industry, then what does that say about a country that actually elected a 'B' rated actor as Commander-in-Chief and put him in the charge of the country's nuclear arsenal?"
Aren't you getting rather defensive about Mr Blair? It was he who dragged Great Britain into the Iraq invasion, much against the will of the British people, but perhaps you've forgotten that. It was he who dismissed the majority Report from the Royal Commission on Long Term Care for the Elderly, accepted the minority report and later elevated its authors to the peerage - despite his campaign promises in 1997. Not a man of his word. The acquisitiveness of both Mr and Mrs Blair is well documented and their association with "celebrities" has been roundly criticised in the UK. He didn't even have the decency to remain a back bencher when he resigned as Prime Minister! Now his chickens have come home to roost, and it can't all be blamed on the present incumbent of 10 Downing Street. But he's a very wealthy man now, writing and talking about his experiences which were paid for by the British taxpayer. If all was fair, the Treasury should be demanding a percentage of his earnings.
As for Ronald Reagan, what does his former career have to do with anything? He subsequently had a long time in politics before he was elected President. You might as well ask why the grocer's daughter became prime minister or, for that matter, why an unknown barrister came into office. Not forgetting that neither were directly elected by the British people.
"I don't think we want to be copying any of America's ideas about who should be involved in the legislative process."
So you're British, well, so am I. I do live on the far side of the Atlantic and can see the advantage of some American procedures which could well be adopted in Britain. Had you lived here, you might have a different outlook.
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looking at the web I see plenty of coverage of Pvt William Longs murder.
(just incase you forgot he was a person).
I see a bunch of hate site filled with outpourings of righteous indignation like yours, Gherkin.
"Islamic terrorists killing on US soil"
Keith Olberman was responsible????????
How do they getto that?
Ah simple logic.
Keith said that the incite-full words of hate by O really were responsible for tillmans (tillman ,tillman,where have I heard that name before?mmm) murderer being encouraged to carry out the attack.
Some of these loonies then try to say that the murder of William Long was a result of Sindy Sheehan and "code pink".
totally dedicated to peace and non murder. How do they get that leap in there?
Now you wouldn't be coming from their point of view would you?
(Note as well that the injured soldier Pvt Quinton Ezeagwula is in fact african american.)
To blame the peace protesters is a sick joke. to carry on about the racial motives in the responses to these incidents is a sick joke as well I hope.
I just found one site where the right along with many very racist comments say that the surviving victim in little rock ..I really cannot express what was said politely. to link the post would be disgusting..
They attack him for not being "american enough" for being the n word. say how was he allowed in the recruiting office.
It seems that this has truly galvanised the right. they seem to feel that the indignation they feel should be directed at others not at themselves. the very people who have radicalised so many here and abroad.
I want to hear a post from you condemning the right from attacking this injured soldier from promoting the hate that seeds this violence.
"Latte Island" Go look it up.
And give it up.
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Have to give a giggle DC. Maybe not long enough then here in the states for me.
What I see is a huge waste of time and energy in order to get less service, here.
loads of term limits and regs and blah blah but when it comes down to it the place doesn't really work that well.
We could get rid of the queen and have a president some say.I tell them to go to america and try it out first.
(now I'm not accusing you of that). But really how much did it cost for our local schoolboard election here? Could they not have better employment standards. what happens when the right wing cretinists take over the school board, where do you go then.
just imagine if a AG for the nation was not appointed but picked in the civil service, maybe a humphrey but hopefully not croney like Gonzales was.
By all means look at the states but leave it for the research unless there is overwhelming proof it works.(the change alone costs money we haven't got) .
I doubt it would be that conclusive which was better.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
111, guns.
" some nut job with a gun who murders people does not mean that ordinary citizens do not have a right to defend themselves. If he didn't have a gun, he would have used something else."
Let's face it, guns. It is a lot more efficient to go after someone with a gun than, let's say, a knife. A knife requires close contact and is not always deadly. And as for fists, or rocks, all that results in is a little brusing and bloody knuckes. The answer is, not to take guns from normal, law-abiding people, but to take them away from loonies and criminals. That's where gun control would help. Also, who the hell needs assault weapons, except soldiers?
Propagandists against gun control make it sound as though rifles, shotguns and hand guns would be denied to everyone. This not true, and you know it.
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lostallyourmarbles;
A gun puts a small woman defending herself on an equal footing with a large man who may break into her house. You want to take guns away from law abiding citizens such as the small woman living alone while we know that the criminals will always find a way to have access to them? Fine, since I'm not a small woman, it's not my problem. I assume you live alone in an apartment in Manhattan, have no gun, and are not the least bit afraid that someone will break into your home to rob you and maybe kill you so you can't identify them. Now all you have to do is persuade all the women in America of the same and you're home free since women are a majority of the citizens and the voters.
What's the matter, don't you believe in democracy marbles? Your buddy Mahmoud mad in the head Ahmadinejad looks to be the President of Iran for the next four years. Was he really re-elected or was it rigged? We'll never know. Iran is a democracy in its own eyes only, in the real word it is a tyrannical theorcratic military dictatorship. This is what the top Mullah Ayatollah Khomeni wants. The march to war with the US, Israel, and who knows who else moves ahead another notch.
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124 Guns - Of course we can get along.. because it is right
132 14allandall41 - Keith Hudson's rough
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szeSZFtwpG4&feature=PlayList&p=9640A884E18C08C5&index=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FM6xU70W08&feature=related
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#48
gunsandreligion,
Thank you for the link. It's still as funny as I remember!
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Marcus: I speak enough Latin to confuse the Mods, apparently.
I know that had Magna Carta been translated into English at the time, you wouldn't have understood it anyway: it would have been in Middle English. Here's an example -
"watz euesed al vmbetorne abof his elbowes
þat half his armes þervnder were halched in þe wyse
of a kyngez capados þat closes his swyre"
- it's from Gawain and the Green Knight, and it's talking about someone wearing a cape.
"That half his arms thereunder were covered in the manner of a King's cape that covers his neck"
To get to any English you'd understand, you're waiting for a touch more french to enter the language. Ahhh, the dear old French. Making the English comprehensible since about AD 1260.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Valhallagram
Churchill: Well, Geoffrey? What are your thoughts on our American corespondent?
Chaucer: I kan nat soothly seyn. Modyraters are lystnyg.
Churchill: In a word, then?
Chaucer: Ers.
Churchill: There we have it. Back to the studio.
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The Gallup poll does not use registered voters in their polls. As far as voting goes in the US only about 49 to 51% vote. Roughly half the country, most have given up. So I guess Obama got 26%, McCain 24 or 25%. I didn't hear the Letterman apology. Nor did I hear Reverend Wright's apology on his comments on Jews keeping him from Obama. Maybe the island of Paulua only got 12 million per detainee. How much is Bermuda getting $$$$$. Obama must have told the British? Just like Obama's outrage over the AIG bonuses. Were the British people napping? Step out for tea? Or maybe the Obama doublespeak wasn't translated right? Its okay Obama will apologise. Opps, sorry, your not a radical nation, you don't get one.
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Napolitano see this 88 year old crazy as vindication for the investigation of white veterans returning home as possible terrorist in the US. But a recent convert to Islam murdering a US soldier, a federal employee, a citizen, as a man made disaster. Interesting how the agenda is pushed "love is war" (1984) (Obama's Afghanistan war). How Obama is cast as a deity (the messiah). This smacks of Roman days. All hail. Push everything thru as quick as possible, fast food government is better than consensus and debate. Take over more businesses, set salaries, spread it around.
"The substance of the eminent Socialist gentleman's speech is that making a profit is a sin, but it is my belief that the real sin is taking a loss." Winston Churchill
"We believe that there is one economic lesson which our twentieth century experience has demonstrated conclusively-that America can no more survive and grow without big business than it can survive and grow without small business....the two are interdependent. You cannot strengthen one by weakening the other, and you cannot add to the starure of a dwarf by cutting off the legs of a giant."
Benjamin Franklin Fairless
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#131. MarcusAureliusII: "I'm not a small woman"
But small in every other respect.
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MagicKirin wrote "Jews and Blacks are the two most persecuted ethnic groups in the world. When violence, discrimination is used against them, much of the world takes a pass in it's outrage."
Yeah I guess the 20 to 40 million Russian peoples, the 9 million poles. How many blacks have died? Oh I get it they were caucausians. So like Reverend Wright he must not count those persecuted groups, inclusive, pc I get it. Get this all people have been slaves and persecuted........ The word SLAV comes from the Greek word meaning "Slave".
Serfs what were they again, tenant farmers, indentured servants? PC makes me sick......Doublespeak, double standard. "With liberty and justice for all." Not now!
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130, Ms. Marbles, it actually happens to be illegal for "loonies and
criminals" to possess firearms. Unfortunately, the "gun control" lobby
really wants to rewrite the Constitution.
I'm all in favor of locking up criminals, especially those in gangs.
Why don't we try that?
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Richard_SMO Q) Who should have apologised?
Obama didn't even mention this outrages murder to the Saudi's who sponsor the Watenabe form of Islam. As I guess when beheading isn't torture, or lopping off a 7 year old girls hand for helping Americans locate and defuse an IED. I think the world deserves an apology from Islamic nations for the radicals they have spawned supported by moderate(?)Islamic Muslims. That would be a start! 80 nationalities died in the World Trade Center. The closet apology was the Saudi's offering Rudolf Guliani 10 million dollars after. Guliani's response "Your part of the problem, take your money an go." A blind man knows this is going on, this camel doesn't have its nose under the tent, it is in the tent.
lastly Bush certainly owes the American public some explanations, preferably with his right hand raised and two guards either side!
Bush was a politician, Obama is a politician. Throwing money at it with no plan evident. To make the bad men go AWAY! Stuff the pockets full of cash. Pakistan, Afghanistan, Palua, Bermuda. Bailout money, the guy who collaped AIG lives in the UK (Read Rolling Stone, they did an excellent breakdown of the financial crisis, started with Clinton and liberal lending policies). I remember the old days when the third world dictators moved to France. Now Bermuda and other paradises have them......and Cash to boot.
Dictators have a better retirement plan, than social security! Is Baby Doc Duvileur still in France? Where is Waldo? Maybe he will come out for Gordon Browns job.. All politicians, not leaders.
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#131. MarcusAureliusII: "Was he really re-elected or was it rigged?"
Except for re-election, you could well ask the same question of the 2000 Presidential Election. Did Bush really win?
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"A gun puts a small woman defending herself on an equal footing with a large man who may break into her house. You want to take guns away from law abiding citizens such as the small woman living alone while we know that the criminals will always find a way to have access to them?"
What tosh.
Why is it that in virtually every other OECD country, where there is rational gun control, little old ladies aren't being bumped off right and left, then?
There is an epidemic of granny murders in, say, Japan, is there?
The opinion is based on a whole series of utter fallacies propounded by the nut cases in the NRA.
Let's stop with the fairy tales.
Let's take a look at what the reality of the wacko right-wing interpretation of the 2nd amendment sacred cow of an unlimited "right to bear arms" really means.
The vast majority of murders, including shootings, occur not between anonymous strangers such as your mythical unknown burglar, but between people who know each other quite well. Very often they are family members. They are crimes of opportunity, where the ready availability of firearms greatly amplifies the ability to do harm. Comparatively few murders involve armed housebreakings (although the swamp of firearms has made "home invasions" a contemporary problem unheard of in the 1960's)
Ridiculously often the killers are young males with far too much testosterone and nowhere near enough brains, or perspective, or judgment. Often they are domestic partners, of which category it is overwhelmingly males who kill females.
They do not gun each other down in a duel at high noon in the main street, while the townspeople huddle behind the doors of the saloon.
On the contrary, the other person, usually the woman, is typically unarmed, and running for her life, desperately screaming to anyone within earshot for help. The attacker ambushes the victim, or holds her de facto prisoner. And shoots her. And kills the neighbour from the next door townhouse who tried to hold onto her arm and pull her away from him. Or maybe someting odd happens - the sawed off shot gun jams in the underground mall when he tries to kill her as she buys coffee on the way to work, he takes her hostage, uses her as an human shield, the police tactical squad eventually corner him outside the train station, a two hour standoff ensues shutting down the business district, and finally a police marksman puts a bullet through his head when he leans just far enough away from her to give them a clean shot.
How does her ownership of a firearm help her? She can't get to it, and it is far more likely that she will be shot with her own gun than that she will be able to use it to protect herself. It is about power, and domination, and manipulation. And selfishness. Monumental, staggering, humanity-denying selfishness.
Too often it is about stupid, selfish, poorly raised males who sell drugs. They terrorize neighbourhoods in the banlieus, particularly certain ethnic neighbourhoods where people may be afraid to talk to the police. They wear shirts that say "stop snitchin'". They are the kind of idiots who decide to have a gunfight on boxing day at one of the busiest shopping intersections in North America. Or who decide to shoot at each other through traffic on a 14 lane highway at high speed.
Then too, there are the stupid accidents, where children shoot each other while playing. The number of lawsuits involving, for example, accidental shootings that occur while hunting partridge is staggering. The tip of an iceberg, really: If I am not mistaken, in my lifetime it is quite possble that more Americans have been killed by firearms than have died in the service of their country in all of America's wars put together. And that doesn't begin to count the much larger number of people who are critically wounded - blinded, paralysed, crippled for life.
How many people have to die, how many lives have to be ruined, before you stand up and say "This is insane"?
All this vacuous bleating about the 2nd amendment isn't worth the life of a single murder victim, and if you think it is, you need to take a really long hard look at your values. Have you ever sat down and reflected on the grief that each of these killings represents? How would you like it if it were your son or your daughter killed or crippled?
The problem with guns is that when you have a sea of them, they tend to get used. A fair proportion of them tend to gravitate to the people who should least have them.
We have relatively modest gun control in this country. It isn't as good as in plenty of other countries, but it isn't bad. Those who wish to own guns can do so, and if they wish to hunt they can do so. Because they are engaging in an activity for which there is ample historical statistical evidence of risk to their neighbours (i.s., the public generally) the trade-off is that gun ownership and use requires that the gun owner agree to reasonable precautions and safeguards. Our neighbours are quite reasonably entitled to demand those protections: they have rights, too. There is a long list of restricted weapons, but no reasonable person could possibly justify their ownership for hunting or recreation.
Our murder rate is less than 1/5 (it used to be less than 1/10) of the rate in the US. Even now, very few of us lock our doors. When I grew up, almost nobody locked their doors. By and large, we didn't live in fear, either. We had robberies, but very few.
More than half the gun murders we have involve weapons illegally smuggled in from the US. This is a point of considerable cross-border irritation, because US policy with respect to gun control is by any reasonable standard irresponsible, indeed, callous.
For any other product, comparable irresponsible behaviour would result in crippling civil liability in tort for the manufacturer or vendor - from automobiles to baby cribs, to excessively hot coffee. In the US it would almost certainly include punitive damages. The standard or reasonable care in those industries is so high that it is tantamount to strict liability.
But for some reason, the same rules don't seem to apply to firearms.
It is long, long past time we imposed comparable strict liability on gun manufacturers and vendors, for failure to track ownership of the weapons they sell. If we gave the families of the victims the absolute right to recover from the manufacturers and vendors, and imposed strict liability, this problem would diminish significantly, and the cost of insurcance would be incorporated into price at the point of sale.
(The manufacturers and vendors would then, of course, have a right to claim indemnity against subsequent title holders, placing the cost and difficulty of recovery against the actual owner on the manufacturers and vendors, rather than on the victims who had no say in the original sale or any subsequent transfers of title, nor in issues of negligent storage, or, or, or) The problem wouldn't disappear, but it would get much smaller - and in a hurry.
Lastly, consider the safeguards adopted by the state with respect to capital punishment (and, nonetheless, people are still wrongly convicted). Consider all the appeals, all the sifting of evidence. This is a power of life and death that even the USSC trembles to wield.
And yet it is unremarked in the US that a poorly raised, drunken 20 year old in a pick-up truck, with no brains, no education, no job, who doesn't own a pot to piss in, and who may be lacking in life skills or inter-personal communication skills, should, on a whim, without reasonable cause and without any deliberation, exercise this same power of life and death over anyone who happens merely to have had the misfortune to cross his path - most typically family members, and above all the poor woman stupid enough, or unfortunate enough, to have become involved with the jerk.
Rational public policy?
Hardly.
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American Grizzly;
At the rate things are going, Congress will have to approve another bail out package just to pay other countries to take the GITMO prisoners off our hands. Wouldn't it be a lot easier and cheaper to just shoot them?
Canard;
I am not interested in your antatomical endowments. Please keep that to yourself. I have said in the past that IMO, Al Gore won the 2000 election and it was stolen from him by a conspiracy of all three branches of the Florida state government and by the Congres and SCOTA. The justice who cast the last and deciding vote was Sandra Day O'connor, the first woman Supreme Court Justice who happened to have been nominated by President Reagan. So much for a woman having any more fair sense of justice than a man as Soda Mayonnaise would have us believe. IMO, had the Democrats walked out of Congress and refused to have participated in the government until the matter was decided fairly, the vote in the questionable districts of Florida would have to have been recast. This proved that they had no guts, did not have the courage to stand up for even themselves. Snakes, all of them. Especially the big fat one who killed the girl while he was driving drunk and tried to cover it up.
uninterestingforeigner, since you do not understand the role guns have played in the history of the United States, their deep rooted cultural and psychological importance, and the fact that the number of people killed in crimes with guns in the US is infiintesmal compared to how many would be killed if the government tried to take over and establish a dictatorship like Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia and the population was unarmed, you always will be a foreigner to the US. You obviously know nothing about us or our civilization. You only believe the propaganda you want to believe. Your preconceived prejudices are of no interest to me.
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140, guns.
Where do you stand on assault weapons? Where do stand on gun permits?
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143, interested.
"Why is it that in virtually every other OECD country, where there is rational gun control, little old ladies aren't being bumped off right and left, then? There is an epidemic of granny murders in, say, Japan, is there?"
You are not taking into account that, once you get out of the cities, the land can be pretty sparcely populated, unlike Europe, for instance. Also, we have a greater history of violence than much of the world and have to be able to defend ourselves. Having said that, I am in favor of control (not gun banishment) and am absolutely against assault weapons.
I did not read the rest of your comment. It was TOO LONG.
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131, staphylococcus aureus.
"Your buddy Mahmoud mad in the head Ahmadinejad looks to be the President of Iran for the next four years. Was he really re-elected or was it rigged?"
Probably the same as America - a little rigging here and there. It's known as democracy in action!
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#144. MarcusAureliusII: "Canard; I am not interested in your antatomical endowments."
Why did you write that? I didn't refer to myself in any way, only you, and I wasn't referring to your anatomy, let alone "endowments". However, perhaps you have a problem with it, which might explain your attitudes. In any case, I'm pleased to see that you agree about the 2000 election.
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146. At 08:29am on 13 Jun 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
143, interested . . .I did not read the rest of your comment. It was TOO LONG.
This isn't the Readers' Digest Condensed Blog. It was about the right length for what it said, I thought.
{This post is Twitter length. Excluding the ellipsis.]
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149. Squirrel.
It is a matter of perception. Usually what can be said in 500 words can be said in 200. I am not criticizing InterestedForeigner for his opinions since, for the most part, I share his approach. But there is no time to read essays. At least I don't have the time. But I am certainly interested in people's opinions.
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143. At 06:23am on 13 Jun 2009, Interestedforeigner wrote:
"A gun puts a small woman defending herself on an equal footing with a large man who may break into her house. You want to take guns away from law abiding citizens such as the small woman living alone while we know that the criminals will always find a way to have access to them?"
What tosh.
I like the logic, though. An assault weapon therefore puts the very small burglar on an equal footing with a very big householder who possesses a very big motorbike and a very smelly leather jacket but only has a little gun?
What proportion of American burglars go about their business with a gun instead of a jemmy or a handy brick?
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150. At 09:08am on 13 Jun 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
149. Squirrel. It is a matter of perception. Usually what can be said in 500 words can be said in 200.
Depends. Sometimes even the best sub can only get it down to 450. Unless you do the Reuters thing so every par can be cut from the bottom up . . .
I tried txt spk 1ce 2 save spce no1 liked it.
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#119 MagicKirin
You have my humble apologies, I misread your final sentence. I stand corrected!
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Ref #131 and 147
Of course the Iran election was rigged. Do you think people want to listen an intolerant thug like Ayatollah Khatami.
Do you think woman wish to be subsurvient to men in this age.
I long for the days when Iranains can step on the picture of Khomeni.
Long live the Shah!
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MARCUS.
There you go again.We all know what part guns have played in American history.They were responsible for the eradication of those savages that stood in the way of progress.The fact that they regard this brutal assault as akin to genocide does not seem to register.There are various estimates as to the population of indigenous tribes of between 7-10 million.By 1910 there were 250,000.Infintesimel? Oh, by the way the Mohawk are making a stand in Akwesasne a unique community divided by an artificial border between usa and Canada.The Mohawks don't want armeed checkpoints in the middle of their communities like the West Bank, so they have taken over the border post.Now the whole community has been sealed off by the armed forces of the U.S.A and Canada since Tuesday and the press banned from the area.You are aware that holding civilians hostage is a war crime.People are being asked to bring in supplies by boat to break the blockage.Now you can fool yourself Marcus that all American abuse happened in pre history but who will believe you?Thank God there are Americans that know in order to be free you have to be responsible.You are aware also that individual freedom through representative government was given to you by your indigenous peoples.As I have said before, the fight for justice goes on.
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Ref 154, Magic
"Long live the Shah!"
"Supreme Leader" Ali Khameni, like his predecessor and the Shah, imposed his will, once again, and silenced the voices that clamored for freedom, peace and prosperity. Lauding one thug because he may have been slightly better than another is not the solution. It will be interesting to see what happens next and, most importantly, how long will Khameni keep his stranglehold on his people.
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Canard #138
"#131. MarcusAureliusII: "I'm not a small woman"
But small in every other respect."
As I said, when it comes to your physical endowments, zip it. BTW, I have come to the same conclusion about you and I am not talking about your physical stature. The adjectiove "small" in every respect that really matters most seems to describe you to a tee. I'm surprised you recognize it in yourself. Proverbial Freudian slip of the tongue?
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miguel
Protecting a nations's borders from allowing just anyone to enter is one of the most basic functions that defines what a nation is. There was no inference to governments not having guns. If you are referring to the history that lead to a large number of native Americans being killed as the what beacme the American people, that is European settlers, their descendants, and immigrants from elsewherre set up colonies, expanded westward, and conquered the wilderness of an entire continent, then most of those who were killed were probably killed in skirmishes with a government armed military force. Being an America hater, you would probably prefer to see the US military disarmed too. That way the entire country could be defenseless against its enemies and destroyed, your dream and that of others of your mentality. Perhaps you dream of Mexico taking back all the territory it lost in the Mexican American War in 1855 and Texas. That won't happen.
From the people who lived in the earliest colonies, to those who ventured West, to those who live in large cities or small towns today, the right of an American to own one or more guns to protect their property, their home, their family from intruders and even today from wild animals (I saw a black bear in the backyard of a home in suburban Montclair NJ about 8 years ago) is unquestioned. Every politician who tried to take this right away, a right that is enshrined in the Constitution of the United States has been blown to smithereens. A popular politician, Senator Tydings in Maryland during the late 1960s was just one of them who tried and it ended his promising political career. America is ultimately a very violent place. It was born of violence and its history has been one of perpetual violence. Every nation that made the mistake of going to war against it found that out the hard way. It's in our blood. What else would you expect from us who are descended from the dregs, the bad seed of all of the other natios of the world?
Maybe we need a wall on our Northern border the way we have one on our Southern border. Just because the Mohawk tribe is an independent nation, it will not have the right to create on its territory a clear fault in the ability of America to protect its borders. It will not be allowed to establish an opportunity for illegal aliens, terrorists or othersise to easily enter the territory of the United States. If the Mohawks foolishly resist, then the border will be enforced by the US government by whatever means are required. That is how it should be, that is how it will be.
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ref #156
I only laud the Shan in comparision to what suceeded his relativly modern reign.
Yes there is a bias because he was open minded enough to have relations with Israel. Which shows he was a far great leader than Abdullah is. Abdullah is afraid to make peace.
women could dress as they chose and could drive cars
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Marcus Mayne
.. Pleasant wind :)
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
n.b mayne
Comes from the movie Scarface, where Cubans pronounce the word "man" as "mayne".
... Videos, tags: experimentos, geek, ingenieria, ingenieria geek,
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Re: 158 Marcus Mayne
Pleasant Wind :)
nb. mayne
Comes from the movie Scarface, where Cubans pronounce the word "man" as "mayne".
I'm a mayne!
A full-grown mayne!
I'm a lovin' mayne!
(Muddy Waters)
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Gary you did make sense for a while then you came up with this fantastic couple of lines. Truly amazing the way you do fall into step so easily.
"The strength of our system is that we worked through this difficulty without crisis and moved on. Whatever one thinks of the justice of the election of Bush, his election was legitimate because the U. S. Congress, which is the ultimate judge of presidential elections, said so."
The US congress said so.. OK that's good enough for me. And when they decide that all people over 50 should be killed or this population should be killed I'll just say "hey well congress said it is OK" like that war we got into because congress said it is OK.
Great decisions there. So what if one day congress is controlled by some despotic regime (oh we already had that with Bush ) who use their power to scare congress into compliance. Or what if congress has an ulterior motive.
What if they are a bunch of righty tighties that don't want to let go.
Or is it because it is the American congress that you have this unbelievable gullibility about the system getting things right.
There was no way a hang man like GW should have been allowed to be Gov let alone president.
But the results were so off they should have run that election again. real simple. that is what a democracy that puts its actions behind its words do when there is a problem with the results.
Or do the US congress know better because they are the US congress.
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143, Interestedforeigner -
I read all of your post and found it very interesting and intelligent (as usual), and agree with it. Fortunately, I don't have a short attention span and am willing to read long posts that actually have something important to say.
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#157. MarcusAureliusII:
"#131. MarcusAureliusII: "I'm not a small woman"
But small in every other respect."
"As I said, when it comes to your physical endowments, zip it."
Apparently you don't understand quotation marks - I was quoting your own words. Attempting to attribute the remark to me smacks of desperation. Nevertheless, it appears that you're very sensitive about "endowments" - as was Hedwig. As is said - big mouth, small . . . ; and you certainly have the big mouth.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
140. At 05:46am on 13 Jun 2009, gunsandreligion wrote:
130, Ms. Marbles, it actually happens to be illegal for "loonies and
criminals" to possess firearms. Unfortunately, the "gun control" lobby
really wants to rewrite the Constitution.
I'm all in favor of locking up criminals, especially those in gangs.
Why don't we try that?
-----------
because if someone had locked this guy up they would have been accused of limiting his freedom of speach.
GSM
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139 LOL that is the funniest post I have read since some twit accused MA of being a lefty liberal.
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AWW they mods won't let people take the P out of someone for being a sexist twerp.. Fair enough.They should try though it would be way more entertaining than the original posting. But the BBC figures were dropping for this Blog and so the weekend waver had to be allowed.
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145, Ms. Marbles, I live in a state where all gun ownership is registered.
It is illegal to own a fully-automatic weapon unless one is a federal
firearms dealer. (These are the people who sell weapons to the police.)
I agree with both of these provisions. But, as 90% of the crime in my
little community is gang-related, I would like to see the Federal government
effectively control the border with Mexico before they get involved
to a greater extent in my life. The Feds are really good at infringing on
private liberties when it suits their purposes; not so good at fulfilling
their obligations.
In my town, the Mexican Mafia is quietly infiltrating so that they
can move drugs. It's way beyond what California can handle. So far,
I haven't seen much effort on the part of the Federal government to
address the root cause of the violence here.
What I am concerned about are cases like Washington, DC, where ordinary
citizens were forbidden from owning firearms, even in their own homes.
This was overturned in the Supreme Court, but if Obama can control the
judiciary, might this not be reversed in the future?
I'm also concerned about surveillance of private citizens. I know that
the Constitution is being violated, but the American people have become
very sheep-like since 9/11.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
A 88 year old man is not going to kill anyone without a gun. folks.
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alphamiguel, I don't know exactly what point you're trying to make,
because I'm sure that both governments would like to disarm the Mohawk
so that they can't defend themselves, but the incident which you have
mentioned looks really cool. There was a region overlapping Northern California
and Southern Oregon which attempted to secede from both states, but WWII
came along and derailed the effort.
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172, 14, I wonder how many bus transfers he had to make to get
to the museum?
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144
"I have said in the past that IMO, Al Gore won the 2000 election and it was stolen from him by a conspiracy of all three branches of the Florida state government and by the Congres and SCOTA. The justice who cast the last and deciding vote was Sandra Day O'connor, the first woman Supreme Court Justice who happened to have been nominated by President Reagan. So much for a woman having any more fair sense of justice than a man as Soda Mayonnaise would have us believe. IMO, had the Democrats walked out of Congress and refused to have participated in the government until the matter was decided fairly, the vote in the questionable districts of Florida would have to have been recast. This proved that they had no guts, did not have the courage to stand up for even themselves. Snakes, all of them. Especially the big fat one who killed the girl while he was driving drunk and tried to cover it up."
Wow and for once I on this one paragraph may have thought MA was sane.
but then the rest of the post shot that theory in the head.
(though I wish to know why they do not vote blind to each others votes or all at once, it seems strange to have a vote where one waverer can wait till the end and then change their mind because of the preceding votes as opposed to the issues)
but then the rest of the post shot that theory in the head.
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remarkable morning here.
"Of course the Iran election was rigged. Do you think people want to listen an intolerant thug like Ayatollah Khatami.
Do you think woman wish to be subsurvient to men in this age."
Now I'm with you.
But then I said americans could not have voted in such an unbelievably stupid and nasty little man to the white house , but Bush won.
Rigged ?
Well the one good thing about rigged elections is they make the people innocent of the regimes actions. As such will you join the calls for those that slam the Iranian people and suggest we should bomb them as terrorising innocent people, or is there a double standard?
Or will you accept the result as valid because the Iranian congress or equal body has said the election was won by Ahmadinnasbad? ( Yea yea Iran is not america, blah blah, heard it)
Or will you assume the people were actually anti american enough to vote for him just because they hate us.
Which would be funny really because we voted in a mad man twice as well .For similar reasons. America had been brainwashed into hating all muslims and so was suckered in by all the talk of fear promoted by Cheney and Bush.
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LOL GnR He got a free ride that was for sure.
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177, 14, just proof, as Al Capone once said, that "you can get further
with kindness and a gun than with kindness alone."
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Oh interested great post bTW
LOL Alpha I heard about the Mohawk revolution going on.
Why do the forces not just set up a boarder control on their side of the reservation instead of blocking the bridge so the town is cut in two.?
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ref #176
Are you a European? Because that arrogant condescending attitude is very irrating from a region that elected Chirac and Zapero.
Bush one because unlike Gore and Kerry he stood for something.
Even though I disagree with him, so did Obama during the campaign.
But to compare a free election where anyone over 35 is permitted to run to a thugish theocracy which has the final say is beyond belieft.
Hoping to see Mullahs prosecuted for the Iranain mullahs prosecuted for human rights violations.
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Akwesasne is a preview of what the "Two-state Solution" will be like in the Middle East. Whenever a powerfully armed nation with dreams of empire does not like the policies of a lesser armed nation seeking only to protect their lands, the powerful, overly-aggresive armed nation will subject the lesser armed nation to blockades, cruel sanctions, economic collapse, and cruel death.
The white man still covets the land of the red man as they have for 517 years. Will their greed, paranoid fantasies, and lust for blood never end until the white man has stolen the last acre of the red man's land and brought the red man to extinction?
Onward! O' Ship of State! Fulfill your blood-soaked destiny to please your cruel gods.
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180. At 5:02pm on 13 Jun 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #176
Are you a European? Because that arrogant condescending attitude is very irrating from a region that elected Chirac and Zapero.
------------------
Wakey wakey Gherkin! Who else calls you Gherkin?
Come on big prize for you if you get it right.
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PS Gherkin I'm beginning to think the reason Bush won is because Gore unfortunately picked lieberman as his running mate. I for one would never have voted for him.
(oh and that is not because of his religion but because he seems as gullible as you are)
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But to compare a free election where anyone over 35 is permitted to run
Again America like freedom of speech is so great at pretending they have freedoms.
gherkin. What about money. There is a guy on the street corner here running but strangely you will not have heard of him.
like so many others that would run if they had billions or even millions to waste.
Apart from having to be a non muslim. It seemed in the last election. (thank God Colin Powell said something about that)
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155. Alpha
Don't kid yourself.
The issue at Akwesasne is smuggling.
Akwesasne is almost certainly the largest illegal smuggling center in eastern North America - guns and cigarettes in one direction, illegal immigrants and prostitutes in the other, drugs in both directions (i.e., marijuana and ecstacy one way, cocaine and heroin the other).
It isn't about aboriginal rights. It's about being able to conduct organized crime without intervention by the authorities, whether US or Canadian.
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" ... since you do not understand the role guns have played in the history of the United States, their deep rooted cultural and psychological importance, and the fact that the number of people killed in crimes with guns in the US is infiintesmal compared to how many would be killed if the government tried to take over and establish a dictatorship like Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia and the population was unarmed, you always will be a foreigner to the US. You obviously know nothing about us or our civilization. You only believe the propaganda you want to believe. Your preconceived prejudices are of no interest to me."
There is a saying that you should never argue with a drunk or a fool, and yet there foregoing quote provides so very many opportunities for satire.
So let's get this straight: you are going to explain to the parents of a murdered child that lack of suitable gun control is justified by some imagined "historical role", and "their deep rooted cultural and psychological importance"
Why don't you try that next week (because for absolute certain, you are going to have dozens of new opportunites - typically about 500 gun killings per week), and then report back on how well the parents receive your comments?
What a crock of equine excrement.
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Interested
Now not being too close to it and only having heard one report on NPR I got the impression it was the Arming of the Canadian border guards that was at issue.
(though it seems strange that no one seemed upset the US guards had guns.)
the protests against that led to the guys in the customs booth shutting up shop because they felt intimidated.
The bridge closure has led to the mohawks setting up a ferry service and only taking mohawks over.and back.
A strange affair it seems. like I said why not just give them full rights as a nation separate from Canada or the US.
Opps OK I'll take that back. I can see where that may lead.but it's not a bad idea.
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" ... and the fact that the number of people killed in crimes with guns in the US is infiintesmal compared to how many would be killed if the government tried to take over and establish a dictatorship like Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia and the population was unarmed ...,"
Well, actually, it is hard to imagine that most people would consider 500/week to be infinitessimal. But perhaps that is merely a measure of your regard for human life and the suffering of others.
And, as a matter of macabre fact, the Nazis didn't kill that many to obtain power. Not even a tiny fraction of it. After they obtained power is a different matter.
Even from 1933 to the start of the war on September 1, 1939, all told, 500/week x 6 years = 150,000 - roughly the number killed in the split of Croatia and Serbia.
But 150,000 is considered "infinitessimal".
Is that the clock?
Cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo ...
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185, IF, this is unfortunately common throughout North America. Certain
people who are bitter about how their ancestors were treated carry their
bitterness forward, and engage in criminal behavior as an act of revenge.
That does not mean that I'm not sympathetic to their cause, but they are
undermining it by their view of reality.
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Ref 185 InterestedForeigner
"The issue at Akwesasne is smuggling."
A lesson well-learned from the white man who "illegally" smuggled rifles, whiskey, and illegal immigrants onto tribal lands for profit and ruin.
The shoe on the other foot is not comfortable, nor becoming.
Perhaps if the many grievances where addressed with an intention towards resolution the tribes would not resort to the "crimes" stated.
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" ...and the fact that the number of people killed in crimes with guns in the US is infiintesmal compared to how many would be killed if the government tried to take over and establish a dictatorship like Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia and the population was unarmed ...,"
Which must be why the populations of, say, England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Germany, The Netherlands, Belgium Luxembourg France ... all suffer to this day in the darkness of tyrannical dictatoships.
This is the raving of a lunatic. Like the rogue general in Dr. Strangelove. You can almost hear him "Power of essence ..."
Interestingly, the founders of the US were men of letters, and the forces involved in a relatively bourgeois group overthrowing the heavy yoke of England (which, by the standards of the time had given them wealth, liberty and opportunity unmatched almost anywhere else, including in England itself) were miniscule by present day standards.
The nut cases who rave about owning guns to keep off the tyranny of the state have inside their own heads a tyranny that is far worse than any a government could impose.
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191, IF, I have to respectfully disagree with your conclusions. Crime is
a sociological problem in the US, and not solely a matter of access to
weapons. Which other items in the Bill of Rights do you suggest that
we dispense with? Freedom of speech? Protection from unreasonable search
and seizure? Due process?
These provisions are there for a reason. Your ancestors may have chosen
not to have those rights. We want to keep them.
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191 Interested
"You must be a commie.;)
Where's my gun"
I like the polite way you say "paranoid freaks"
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Ref 189 gunsandreligion
"...this is unfortunately common throughout North America. Certain
people who are bitter about how their ancestors were treated carry their
bitterness forward, and engage in criminal behavior as an act of revenge."
It is not so much the past treatment of the red man as the continuing poor treatment and racism that is at issue. You may want to go to a number of tribal websites to become informed of the many, current day issues affecting the tribes and the continued land-grabbing by the white man.
The past is a painful reminder of white man injustice. The struggle has continued without relent for hundreds of years. The "American" people continue to ignore the conditions they are responsible for creating and continue to create.
I may not agree with the tactics of the KanienKahake at Akwesasne (Mohawks, to the palefaces), but they are getting attention now.
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194, publius, it's not just the red man who is being trampled these days.
IMHO, the Federal and state governments are out of control, and trampling
upon everyone.
I have a friend whose land was seized by the state of California. It was
surrounded on 3 sides by a state park, and the state park system wanted to
"tidy things up." Unfortunately, cases like this are becoming more common.
The Supreme Court decision which allows state and local governments to
arbitrarily condemn private property and distribute it to private parties is
indicative of this trend.
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"... since you do not understand the role guns have played in the history of the United States, .. you always will be a foreigner to the US.
---
I'm just curious: Is there any regular poster on this blog who thinks MAII is more familiar with US history and culture than I am?
A bit vain there, I'll admit.
The thing is, the paranoid-suvivalist myths perpetuated here by Marcus are actually comparatively recent in origin. They date from the post-war 1950's and the apocalyptic sci-fi stories of the time.
----
"You obviously know nothing about us or our civilization."
Ditto.
On the other hand, it is probably safe to say that one of us doesn't really know that much about the US or its civilization.
----
"You only believe the propaganda you want to believe."
From someone who turns a discussion about gun control into a paranoid rant about Nazis and Communists, this is funny beyond measure.
----
"Your preconceived prejudices are of no interest to me."
Presumably because you are only interested in the ones you already have.
No, heaven forbid that your "prejudices" should be informed by facts like actual death toll statistics, broken down by category and relationship of victim to killer. That way you can cling to your vacuous fairly tales and ignore the actual suffering of the victims of your beliefs, typically women in abusive relationships. But just go on dreaming. Sure, why not. After all, it's only women, why should you care?
The incidents noted in the long posting last night all occured within the last five years, and they are just a tiny sampling.
The astonishing death toll from firearms in the US is not "prejudice". It is fact.
Consider the brutal civil war in Sri Lanka: 70,000 - 100,000 murders over 25 years. Well, in the US that would be 3 - 5 years of gun killings in random crime. But to note that is, apparently, prejudice, and a betrayal of a lack of knowledge and understanding of American history and psychology.
There's that clock again.
Cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo.
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185.
Then why ban international observers,and why do they want to take it to the United Nations? White men always have an angle don't they?Now all the Haudenosaune Nations are criminals.
181
Your right about the land.Now that the natural resources are getting thin they realize what the natives might be sitting on.Classic colonialism.
Marcus
You just don't get it, do you? But I admire your honesty.This,for the um-teenth time is not about you but the government who owes big time and has the power to admit that its treatment of its indigenous people over 157 years has been abysmal and continues to be so.
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172, 14allhappy: "A 88 year old man is not going to kill anyone without a gun. folks."
He could have driven his car through the doors of the museum and then claimed he mistook the gas pedal for the brake.
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146. At 08:29am on 13 Jun 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
143, interested.
"Why is it that in virtually every other OECD country, where there is rational gun control, little old ladies aren't being bumped off right and left, then? There is an epidemic of granny murders in, say, Japan, is there?"
You are not taking into account that, once you get out of the cities, the land can be pretty sparcely populated, unlike Europe, for instance. Also, we have a greater history of violence than much of the world and have to be able to defend ourselves. Having said that, I am in favor of control (not gun banishment) and am absolutely against assault weapons.
I did not read the rest of your comment. It was TOO LONG.
-----
Sorry about the length, Marbles.
Gun control is one of those topics where the determination of a relatively small number of people to engage in blanket denial of crime statistics is hampering the development of rational public policy solutions that will prevent harm to the population generally.
There is a big urban rural divide.
I have no problem with firearms in rural areas, although, having said that, the per capita rate of violent crime, and in particular domestic violence, (and alcoholism , and child abuse , and teenage pregnancy, and illiteracy, and, and , and...) in our rural communities is more than double the rate in the larger urban centers. But the bigger correlation is between poverty and domestic violence, and some of our remote communities are grindingly poor.
Here, lots of people own guns, but they keep them safely stored at home, and don't talk about it. In urban communities in this country an admission in public that you feel you need to own a gun is
(a) likely to cause your friends, neighbours and acquaintances to avoid you as a dangerous kook; and
(b) likely to give rise to the inference that you are insecure, and that the reason you feel you need a gun has something to do with an inability to satisfy women in bed.
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Ref 192 gunsandreligion
I address you from my white skin this time. I am in agreement that U.S. crime is a sociological problem. Dysfunctional families do not teach their children good decision making processes.
Somewhere along the line we have come to admire dysfunction as evident in the many television shows which glorify the under-achiever and the mocking of others. Even our cartoon and newspaper comics exalt the self-centered, mean-spirited fool. Garfield, For Better or For Worse, The Simpsons, South Park, Family Man, etc. are very popular cartoons shows and comic strips that have created a market for t-shirt slogans proudly worn by adults. I keep getting emails of some old cartoon woman spouting vile "wisdom".
Is it any wonder that social values have disolved into a fetid muck? We shrug our shoulders and say, "What can we do about it?" without the least interest of finding a solution. A solution which starts in the home.
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192 GnR you said earlier
", Ms. Marbles, it actually happens to be illegal for "loonies and
criminals" to possess firearms. Unfortunately, the "gun control" lobby
really wants to rewrite the Constitution.
I'm all in favor of locking up criminals, especially those in gangs.
Why don't we try that?"
-----------------------------------
lock up gangs. Which ones?Were working on wall st at the mo I hope they caused the most damage.
Does that include the racist white gangs that this 88 year old pathetic dweeb was associating with. Or because they are spread out in a Virtual gang because they can afford to are they not considered gangs.
This loony had a Gun. so it isn't working.
How did he get it. will those that gave it to him or sold it to him face Jail and asset forfeiture. They should. Pot dealers would.
Can I say if a cop stops me that in my head my right to bare arms is a right to bear my favourite weapon the bong.
It seems that arms is just a way of fighting. if I fight by offering a bong that is my choice (not very good weapon as some would think) but I am restricted to the Fire arms. Is that word in the constitution.
My Bong water is smelly as hell. thrown at an assailant they may well run in shock.
But I am better off carrying a long rifle around than a bong.
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200, publius, I think that really the core of the problem is lack of
sense of community. I don't think that we can really fix that by just
passing new laws.
In the end, communities are built by people who take matters into their
own hands and make the world a better place. The "government" is not
going to do that for us. We're going to do that.
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Guns, Publius, and Miguel.
I may answer each of you at greater length later. Just in general,
Yes, crime is a social problem, and I am all in favour of getting to the bottom of that. There is a better way. Sometimes building and operating better schools is a pretty good way to fight crime.
Guns are not used in all crimes, true enough, but there is no point aggravating things by making firearms so ridiculously easily available. There are reasonable steps that can be taken, and have been taken, in many jurisdications to cut a fair balance. The other rich democracies don't find a critical need to be awash in firearms, and yet they seem to manage reasonably well.
With respect to first nations communities, there are plenty of communities that are doing just fine. There are others that have very very serious social problems. There are others that have very serious problems with organized crime. Many of the problems of Akwesasne relate to its peculiar geographic position and the proximity of a major urban center.
To the extent that we have problems with social justice issues, we should address those issues, and deal with them in a rational, thoughtful manner. But that doesn't mean tolerating violence by you men wearing bandanas who have also, coincidentally, terrorized their law abiding neighbours into silence.
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201, 14, that's it, the right to bear bongs! I love it!
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198 Bere,
I doubt it is that easy to drive up to the holocaust museum with a car.The concrete bollards would probably get in the way. I suspect the HLS has thought that it would be a target.if not they are fools (no comment needed) .
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163, bere.
"I read all of your post and found it very interesting and intelligent (as usual), and agree with it. Fortunately, I don't have a short attention span and am willing to read long posts that actually have something important to say."
Did you bring your teacher an apple evry day?
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"the government who owes big time and has the power to admit that its treatment of its indigenous people over 157 years has been abysmal and continues to be so."
well said.
Both governments in this case.
Interested i'm all for admitting there may be mistakes being made by some Mohawks , but not all .
And the Indian communities have been given a real raw deal. Some communities do well yes. That is an old British tactic Divide and conquer.
There are a number of land cases going through the US courts on the issue of never having been paid what they were promised and also how their lands are being robbed from underneath them. yes we all suffer as GnR because feds take land. But they were here first and were given guarantees. That never happened.
Many tribes are beaten by the simple tactic of ' well we don't recognise your tribe and as such we can do what we like.cause you don't exist."
because the Gov is Ignorant of the tribes existance. they don't exist.
How many tribes are recognised in Ohio. an area that previous to the White man had loads of locals.
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Marbles Bere you think I'm obsessive in attacking Gary?
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204 I'm forming an action commitee to take this one to the white house. get them on a mere technicallity.
Sweet.
And they said I'd never amount to anything.
wanna finance me to go to law school;)(mods do not take that seriously If I wished to ask him seriously I would have gone to his blog and asked)
Now onto your comment
"200, publius, I think that really the core of the problem is lack of
sense of community. "
Your right . it is the lack of decent smithies that causes social collapse.
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207, 14, that's right. I don't believe that the Federal government has
honored a single treaty that they signed with the Indians. But, I was
down in Taos a few years ago, and I had the opportunity to talk with
some Indians there who were given back their ancestral lands, including
"Taos Mountain." Nixon was prez at the time. So, perhaps there is a
tiny smidgeon of hope.
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210 I think the Hope is there. and I do believe it will work that way in the long run.
It is hard for america to talk about other countries oppression when their history has not been settled.
Good luck to Chief Means and all looking for the reestablishment of their rights.
(reestablished cause they did have some rights)
I'm not sure on the law now but I had an aunt in Ohio teaching on some of these rights.
and the lack of recognised tribes from Ohio. I was asked which Americans had by law to carry ID.
At the time it was only First Nationers. Maybe that was true maybe not I never checked, but it did seem strange.
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205, 14allhappy -
Actually, I was being facetious. I haven't been to the Holocaust Museum but expect it's pretty well fortified. But your comment reminded me of a Boston radio program I was listening to last night where they discussing a proposed Massachusetts law to test the reflexes and driving skills of elderly people because they seem to be causing more auto accidents than teenage drivers, at least in Mass. So I thought I'd point out that even without guns the elderly can be hazardous, although I agree in general with your earlier comment.
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207, 208, 14allhappy -
If you are implying what I suspect you are, I don't think I'm doing any attacking! I replied admiringly to a post that IF wrote which I thought was wrongly and childishly criticized.
About the government recognition of tribes, the governor of Vermont does not want the Abenaki here to have official recognition for the simple reason that it would cost the state money in benefits, etc. Which I think is pretty crass. But at least he's honest about it. He doesn't deny their right to recognition as a tribe but just doesn't want to have to give them any rights. It's all about money rather than fairness.
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#196. Interestedforeigner: "I'm just curious: Is there any regular poster on this blog who thinks MAII is more familiar with US history and culture than I am?"
Because of your pseudonym, my guess is that MAII thinks you're from Europe rather than North America; consequently he hasn't considered that you may be equally informed about all things American. As you know, he hates anything vaguely European, and being a "foreigner" you would naturally be in his line of fire. However, he's using rubber bullets.
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212 lol bere I'm glad there was more to it.
BTW I'm in agreement with the legislature if they go ahead with that.
the number of very old looking people I see driving here that seem to think the roads are as empty as when they started driving.
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Bere not you. that attack was squarely on Marbles shoulders.
Sorry.
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Ref 203 InterestedForeigner
"With respect to first nations communities, there are plenty of communities that are doing just fine. There are others that have very very serious social problems. There are others that have very serious problems with organized crime. Many of the problems of Akwesasne relate to its peculiar geographic position and the proximity of a major urban center."
Let us take a look at the Tsa-la-gi (Cherokee) tribe as an example of one of the first nation communities that are thought to be doing "just fine". Keep in mind that the Tsa-la-gi are one of the Five Civilized Tribes that very early on tried to assimmilate into the white culture. That led to the infamous "Trail of Tears".
The U.S. government took their lands in the east sending them to the "Indian Territory", now Oklahoma, where the people rebuilt a nation and their tribe. The government then opened "Indian Territory" to white immigration, once again taking lands promised to the tribes.
The U.S. government is now trying to dissolve the tribe itself. How many times would you like the government to tell you that your family has no right to exist and takes actions to destroy it?
The nations of the white people have a long, long history of not living up to their promises. Should they be respected by the red man? Should they be trusted?
This is but one small example of the continued struggle the Tsa-la-gi have endured through two hundred years of oppression. "We the people..." are still trying to destroy those who once occupied the land. The current policy centers on the odd resolution; if you can't kill them all, ignore they exist.
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214 Lol DC rubber bullets really do hurt.
many have died from them.
I think a old american classic "NERF" bullet is more appropriate.;)
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Bere the rights to tribal recognition is playing out all over america. Some say it's all casino money they are looking for. that is not the truth. there are many issues. Good luck to them I say. (and unlike so many that say that phrase I really mean it. (unless they believe america can do no wrong)
Your governor ,What a dweeb (this is pretty basic when it come to what's right and what's wrong.)
DC Like I always say. Legion's head already knows where IF is from . Or he is really as thick as we have said.
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" if you can't kill them all, ignore they exist."
That about sums it up .
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#213. bere54: "It's all about money rather than fairness."
Isn't it always?
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Didn't Barack send out some positive smoke signals about the equal rights and inclusion of the north american indian indigenous peoples in the envisioned society
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I am in my late 40s and know how to read very well, but many the time it is that I have seen Laws/Bills come up to be voted on, where a Yes vote means you are Against it and a No vote means you are for it. They are writen exactly to misguide the voters. And yes President Obama did recieve a winning percentage of the vote, but that was then and this is now. His tide is turning and with Gas going back towards $3 a gallon, it will leave him high and dry in no time. The person in power who can come up with a wokable plan to stop the YO-YO gas prices will win the presidencey of the US and possibly be made King.
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wow so all america is concerned with is yo yo gas prices.
LOL they really are as thick as the anti americans say.
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InterestedForeigner-
Here is one of the many continuing problems on your side of the border. I've visited Ipperwash and Kettle Point many times. I was at Ipperwash Provincial Park a week before the Dudley George incident. The racial climate was very hot.
I look very white. The Ontario Provincial Police (OPP) were looking for trouble. Their attitude toward me took an abrupt change when I told them I was of mixed blood and was in favor of the Stoney Point Band. They made a strong recommendation that I quickly find my way back over the Blue Water Bridge when they discovered I supported the Stoney Point Band. Very racist remarks were made to me regarding my allegence to my red brothers.
BTW. I was peacefully strolling the beautiful beaches of Camp Ipperwash (A developers dream locale) along Lake Huron when the OPP encountered me. I was not there to provoke anything, nor get involved in the dispute.
Sorry to use a wiki link on this. I really do have to get mowing my lawn.
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223, laughingJoe -
There are many disturbing issues in this country and some people are one-issue voters but I simply cannot imagine anyone, even in this undereducated country, casting a vote for or against someone based solely on the price of gasoline.
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217. Publius.
Sorry about the Wings, by the way. It was a good series.
On the main thing, I am not trying to whitewash, or to deny or diminish either the history or the present day issues.
My point was more along the lines of it being wrong to paint all native communities with one broad brush. We have a huge variety of first nations, and each one has its own history in dealing with the Crown, first Britain proper, now in the right of Canada. There are shared experiences - the residential schools scandals come to mind, - but they also have had widely differing experiences in dealing with the challenges that face them.
Some communities have had very good leadership - the Northern Cree in Quebec, for example, have sometimes have quite strong and effective leadership. Turtle Island seems to do pretty well. Others are just dismal. Usually we don't hear about the communities that are succeeding, we only hear about the ones with problems.
While it would be misleading to say that things are all rosy, they are certainly better than they were. Attitudes toward our first nations have changed almost 180 degrees since I was a child. The first government to take a less paternalistic, and more constructive role in empowering aboriginal communities was the government of Saskatchewan in the 1970's. We now have a federal territory in the eastern artic that is a province in all but name and that is run by the first nations peoples who have always lived there.
Have we solved every problem? No, not by a long distance.
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The language of law is not the source of complexity, rather the inconsistent (or contradictive) ideologies where most laws are contrived. In addition, when daily life is touched and intervened by dozens and hundreds of laws, it is difficult to judge the harmony of new legislation. With that said there is one consistency here, to dumb down language of bills would bode well with an ever increasing subsidized population governed by a nanny-state.
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Ref 227 InterestedForeigner-
Thank you for your responses to my posts. Always enjoy a good dialog with you. I have used our dialog as a sounding board to broadcast to a larger, less informed audience. Both our govenments have improved some of the ways they deal with native people. There is a long way to go before the governments can claim to be resolving issues in a reasonable manner. At least they have taken the bounty off of scalps;-)
We do agree that the Stanley Cup finals were a good series. The better team won. My Wings will have to lick their wounds and get ready for next season. They will be in the trading market. Some of our elder players do need to consider hanging up the skates. A couple of the younger ones may find happiness with a new club.
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Ref 117. Gary_A_Hill
You've cut my sentence up.
David Cunard seemed indignant that the British Prime Minister had rented out entertainers' villas in order to give his family a break from media intrusion, and claimed "The President of the United States would not demean himself by taking vacations with pop stars."
I was pointing out David Cunard's hypocrisy. He has some problem with entertainers and politics. I haven't expressed a view about entertainers entering politics. Here's my full sentence to David Cunard:
"If there's something demeaning about the British Prime Minister renting a villa from someone in the entertainment industry, then what does that say about a country that actually elected a 'B' rated actor as Commander-in-Chief and put him in the charge of the country's nuclear arsenal?"
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Richard_SM (#230), OK, it was merely a rhetorical device for comparison. I don't know why anyone cares where the PM or the President vacations, or with whom. I don't.
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Ref 121. Gary_A_Hill
You said of the 2000 Presidential election, "There is an entire book written on the subject"
There have been many books on the subject - 15 - 20 maybe more. I've read "The Plot To Steal The Presidency" by Jake Tapper and "Supreme Justice" by Alan Dershowitz.
You say the recount was not consistent - what about the 'voter purging' that went on in Florida and Texas - and possibly other states, before the election? The recount in Florida seemed to highlight problems with the whole electoral system. One of the biggest problems seems the fact that election officials are not 'non-partisan.'
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"Richard_SM: And there was also the fact that election officials are not 'non-partisan' in USA which was a revelation in the UK. Has anything changed?"
In the US all voting is controlled by the local/state government. Even in the Election of the president and congress the states control the apparatus. This results in the occasional corruption, but makes corrupting the whole more difficult.
"Gary_A_Hill: The 2000 election was not a sham."
If an election hinges on the vote in one state, in which the Governor is a relative of one of the candidates and controls the state government, it looks like a sham. It may not be one, but it looks very bad. There really needs to be a clear procedure such as requiring a second election or duel to the death for cases like Florida, Ohio, and Minnesota.
111 gunsandreligion: I don't believe that we should give up any of our basic rights to fight them, and that includes my opposition to many elements of the Patriot Act.
121 Gary_A_Hill: It is not at all clear who would have prevailed had the U. S. Supreme Court decided to stay out of it. The decision was, in fact, illegal. The Constitution should have prevailed, in which case the House of Representatives would have chosen the president. This would have put GWB in the White House, which is why the Democrats fought in the courts and lost. The only difference would have been no Dick Cheney as VP, and that might have been huge!
131. At 00:49am on 13 Jun 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
A gun puts a small woman defending herself on an equal footing with a large man who may break into her house.
This NRA position has always puzzled me. People who know about guns often say this in their defense, but what chance would I have wielding a gun against someone like Billy the Kid? OK being serious, people who are not well trained or have less acute sight, for example, dont have much chance against an experienced criminal, gun or no. I assume MAII was quoting tongue in cheek as he probably knows too much about weapons to really believe it.
181. At 5:09pm on 13 Jun 2009, publiusdetroit wrote:
Akwesasne is a preview of what the "Two-state Solution" will be like in the Middle East.
The Native peoples have lost too much, and I oppose any further taking from them. The idea of US and Canadian border controls on the edge rather than in the middle of their territory makes sense, especially since they probably have treaties with both governments respecting their autonomy. There is, however, a problem with dangerous or illegal activity.
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#230. 13 Jun 2009, Richard_SM:
You asked a question and both Gary and I responded. The electorate of the United States was not concerned with Mr Reagan's former career, but rather his term as Governor of the most populous state in the Union. It says a lot about a nation which can separate the two. Tony Blair was nothing before he assumed the leadership of the Labour Party but Reagan had practical, on-the-job experience of running a huge state. What experience did your false idol have?
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228, Quillan.
"With that said there is one consistency here, to dumb down language of bills would bode well with an ever increasing subsidized population governed by a nanny-state."
Why is plain English dumb? Is confusing, convoluted language a sign of intelligence, or semi-literacy?
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Richard_SM (#232) "The recount in Florida seemed to highlight problems with the whole electoral system. One of the biggest problems seems the fact that election officials are not 'non-partisan."
The "whole" system? Really? Recounts are nearly always conducted without any serious concerns about their cridibility. The unusually long recount in Minnesota for the Senate seat is a consequence of the extreme closeness of the vote (300 vote differential in 2.5m cast), not of anything systemic.
As for "partisan" election officials, a good example is the Secretary of State in Ohio in 2004 (who was turned out of office). These cases are rare, but come up from time to time because the election boards are, after all, run by people. Would you have robots conduct the elections? Almost everywhere, anytime, Americans have confidence in our electoral system.
If you want to pick on some other country because its standards of fair elections don't seem to measure up to your own, why not pick on Iran?
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Ref 122. Interestedforeigner
You wrote: "You've actually made the case that having a philanderer in the White House isn't ncessarily so bad..... Didn't do the world any harm."
I hope I haven't made that case. I could easily put up a case that it did do harm. How about 5000 Iraqi children dying each month through the effect of sanctions? How about launching the mini war on Iraq to deflect attention away from the media coverage of Clinton's 'indiscretions.' While Clinton was busy planning how to have his next encounter with Monica, al Qaeda were planning their next move on how to counter American interference.
" Darn sight better than what followed." Agreed!
"But which one had to face impeachment hearings?" Clinton - but there are other forms of hearings. ;-)
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"I don't even like to talk english because it always likes to get my tongue complicated.
English is not my tongue and I've been talking that since I was born and still I still can't talk english. I don't like english because there is something else trying to come out."
-- Peter Tosh
I Am That I Am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTnh-1CUadQ&feature=PlayList&p=24CBE127F941BC91&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=34
Jah Guide
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwWMIhDObwg
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Richard_SM (#232) "What about the 'voter purging' that went on in Florida and Texas - and possibly other states, before the election??
All states (actually counties) purge voter rolls to remove obsolete registrations. Millions of voters move each year, and many more die or change their name. It's not easy keeping voter rolls accurate in a country of 300m people. When valid registrations are removed, it's most often an innocent mistake, and voters can vote by provisional ballot in such cases, allowing for verification of registration later.
Of course there can also be cases of fraud, as with any other aspect of modern life. The answer is to be vigilant in monitoring the process. I expect not many elections are corrupted by fraud, but there shouldn't be any, of course. I have read the report Voter Purges by Myrna Perez, published by the Brennan Center for Justice. This report convinces me that some reforms should be made in this area; it does not convince me that elections in the US generally are not to be trusted.
I have been voting for more than 40 years, in several states, and I have never had a problem with my name not showing on the votor rolls when I expected it to be there. This is not a huge problem.
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Ref 126. David_Cunard
I have simply been pointing out your hypocrisy or inaccuracies:
You wrote: "how could Tony Blair possibly have known, from personal experience, of life in Sedgefield, when he lived hundreds of miles away in comfortable, upper-middle class Islington?"
Because he had a home in Sedgefield (Trimdon), and he was brought up in the adjacent area as I've pointed out to you.
You wrote "As for Ronald Reagan, what does his former career have to do with anything?" Then why do you have such a problem with 'pop stars' villas?
An obsession with Tony Blair comes across in your posts, rather than explaining your rationale for making our electoral system more difficult.
You argue that candidates for our Lower House should live in their constituency but there is no such requirement for candidates for the US Lower House to live in their congressional districts. Furthermore, if as you say, UK is similar proportions to Califiornia, then residing in 646 constituencies is far more difficult for potential candidates than residing in 50 or so Congressional Districts, which would be much larger. But US Lower House candidates don't have to live in the Districts anyway, so it would seem to be a case of hypocrisy on your part.
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Ref 237, Richard
"How about launching the mini war on Iraq to deflect attention away from the media coverage of Clinton's 'indiscretions."
The first Gulf war occurred when Iraq invaded Kuwait during President's George H. W. Bush tenure. The second took place in 2003 when President George W. Bush concluded that Iraq had WMDs and nuclear weapons and posed an unacceptable threat to the USA. President Clinton was busy making money at the time, and I suspect Monica was beating the bushes in unknown locations.
I suspect you meant Bosnia Herzegovina...
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McJakome (#233) "The decision was, in fact, illegal. The Constitution should have prevailed, in which case the House of Representatives would have chosen the president."
No, for the following reason:
"It is emphatically, the province and duty of the judicial department, to say what the law is." (Marbury v. Madison)
Marbury v. Madison established the principle of judicial review long ago, and it has been accepted by practically everyone ever since, the few exceptions being people like youself who seem to think they know what the law is when the Supreme Court does not.
In this case, the question of what the law ought to be is still subject to reasonable debate, because Bush v. Gore was a 5-4 decision. In any case, it was not the last word. The U. S. Congress is the judge of presidential elections. Several members of Congress challenged the Florida electoral vote, but no Senator joined them. The U. S. Senate unanimously accepted the result; so should we all.
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ref #182 and 183
Just a reminder someone of us do have lives besides the internet.
In regard to your second point, Lieberman would be far better as a Commander in Chief than the clueless dolt we have now.
Jimmy Carter 2 continues.
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Ref 141. AmericanGrizzly
You wrote,"80 nationalities died in the World Trade Center. The closet apology was the Saudi's offering Rudolf Guliani 10 million dollars after."
3000 people died in 9-11. Hundreds of thousands died in Iraq as a result of the sanctions through the 1990's. 5000 children were dying every month.
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
Peter Tosh 'Pick Myself Up' & Interview
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX7f-XvQvHc&feature=related
the final tune (promise)
And oh how much I wish that I could fly
And I try
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Richard_SM (#240) "An obsession with Tony Blair comes across in your (David_Cunard's) posts, rather than explaining your rationale for making our electoral system more difficult."
At least David is a Brit, so seems entitled to be obsessed with British politicians and Britain's electoral system. What I don't understand is your obsession with the problems of our electoral system.
As an American, I am fascinated with the British political system (and parliamentary systems elsewhere), but I wouldn't presume to tell you what's wrong with yours, as you have done with ours.
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239, Gary.
"I have been voting for more than 40 years, in several states, and I have never had a problem with my name not showing on the votor rolls when I expected it to be there."
Same here, and I have moved around a lot. As for votes rarely beeing fiddled, there is always the notorious case of Kennedy actually having lost the election to Nixon, but won due to the efforts of the corrupt Daley machine.
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Ref 143. Interestedforeigner
and AmericanGrizzly
Around 35,000 Americans shoot their fellow citizens or other people each year. 9-11 represented just one month of gun related deaths.
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Ref 176. 14allandall41
You wrote, "Well the one good thing about rigged elections is they make the people innocent of the regimes actions."
Amusing observation! ;-)
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"I have been voting for more than 40 years, in several states, and I have never had a problem with my name not showing on the votor rolls when I expected it to be there. This is not a huge problem."
Wow so if every white middle class person thinks there is not a huge problem that must be right.
I'm glad though that you left room for getting nasty with any fraudsters if they can be found.
Oh wait How would we know . many had no way of checking.
No paper trail etc.
US elections are unique in the first world for being the least reliable counting.
A lot of effort went into creating systems that cannot be checked . And books have been written about that as well.
"It's not easy keeping voter rolls accurate in a country of 300m people"
Maybe you have a point here. so compare it to the elections they just had in Europe. Because I've not heard too much about their hanging chads or purged polls.
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Ref 195 gunsandreligion
"I have a friend whose land was seized by the state of California. It was
surrounded on 3 sides by a state park, and the state park system wanted to
"tidy things up." Unfortunately, cases like this are becoming more common."
The "eminent domain" process worked so good with the native people our government is now using it on the rest of the citizens. The National Park Service did a similar thing at Sleeping Bear Dunes National Lakeshore in the western Lower Peninsula and Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. They once gave 99 year leases (with suitable compensation) to the landholder with the stipulation that the land would become part of the National Park Service when the landholder and heirs no longer wanted the land, or the 99 year lease expired. Now they just take it; often with giving a less-than fair market price compensation. Too many times with considerably less renumeration.
"We the people..." need to keep ourselves informed of what our government is doing and be an informed electorate. Government should never be seen as a benign "parent" that looks out for the best interest of the people. The government looks out for the best interest of the government. History supports this charge. The framers of the Constitution knew that power is always seeking to gain more power, often in the disguise of doing so in the best interest of the people. That is why the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution was for the "right to bear arms" and is the second amendment. It was designed to keep the power mongers at bay. Those who have read the history of our Nation under the Articles of Confederation will have a better understanding of why that was so important.
You may agree there is an important meaning to the sequencing of the first group of amendments to the Constitution of the United States refered to as the "Bill of Rights". Free speech being the most important right needed to have an informed electorate. The ability of the citizens to defend themselves against a government gone power hungry when free speech is corrupted to gain more governmental control of power is the second. Talk first; take action when talking no longer works.
As a lad, I remember walking down through the middle of my small town with a .22 rifle slung over my shoulder (action open); walking into the hardware store to buy a brick of ammunition (500 rounds) with the rifle still slung on my shoulder. (The owner of the store was not the least bit nervous I was armed) If anyone gave a passing thought to why I was walking through town with a rifle on my shoulder, it was to ask if I were going target shooting at the town dump or hunting rabbits. I was a part of the "well-regulated" militia. I was taught how to use the rifle, and the crucial decisions an armed person must always take responsiblity for when armed. A responsibility not to be taken lightly. Something learned from my parents. Not school, nor church, nor the government teachings and regulations. Parental love, teachings, and supervision until I proved very responsible behavior while armed.
There is a child that lives next door to me who has been, literally, raising himself for the four years he has lived in that house. Four critical years leading into his teens. He learns most of what he knows about social behavior from movies, television, and his peers. Is it the fault of the state? Or the fault of his single parent? (He never met his father)
Maybe the most irresponsible use of "firearms" are genitalia. Lock and load.
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Here's a link to a book review of Down and Dirty: The Plot to Steal the Presidency by Jake Tapper, referred to by Richard_SM in post #232, from Washington Monthly.
excerpt:
"In the meantime, we have Jake Tapper, who covers politics for Salon, emptying his notebook in book form, so anxious to be the first out of the gate that he harms his otherwise good reputation in the process. It's not just that my name is misspelled in the index and my comments taken out of context in a footnote; there's a slapdash and padded quality to this book that detracts from some of the good Florida reporting within it. Books are not supposed to be rough draft Internet dispatches thrown between hard covers."
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allmymarbles (#248) "As for votes rarely being fiddled, there is always the notorious case of Kennedy actually having lost the election to Nixon, but won due to the efforts of the corrupt Daley machine."
One of several well-known examples of suspected election tampering. There are those, however, who argue that any tampering in Illinois did not actually change the result. Maybe it did, but I would not take it as a given. In any case, we ended up with Nixon eventually anyway.
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Ref 181. publiusdetroit
Ref 185. Interestedforeigner
InterestedForeigner wrote: "The issue at Akwesasne is smuggling... guns and cigarettes .... illegal immigrants and prostitutes.... drugs."
This is a common accusation. The Australians make similar allegations about the aborigines. Americans used to claim the native Americans were "lazy" and "alcoholics." It seems a little too convenient. Perhaps you (IF) should be asking why they have to resort to crime, if your claim is true. The reservation around Lake Pyramid in Nevada went into decline when their water supply was diverted. No food = crime. It's not a difficult equation to understand. White Americans, white Europeans and every other race behave exactly the same. IF, you said,"It isn't about aboriginal rights."It isn't about race or ethnicity either. It's about persecution and injustice.
I agree with #181 publiusdetroit, although I would point out that it has happened in the Middle East, and continues.
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246 Don't stop the music.;)
Gary
" Several members of Congress challenged the Florida electoral vote, but no Senator joined them. The U. S. Senate unanimously accepted the result; so should we all."
OH yes the US congress says so it must be right. Just like the war on terror or the war on drugs or the war on the indians(past). Us Gov says so then all shall bow down and accept the bull they throw.
You are pathetic sometimes in your blind faith (and faith is the right word) in you Governments ability to get things right.
Vietnam.
opps Oh the War GW2 as opposed to GW1. remember that one. Well I voted for Obama . He was right on that one, not those running the place.
" 247. At 10:57pm on 13 Jun 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:
Richard_SM (#240) "An obsession with Tony Blair comes across in your (David_Cunard's) posts, rather than explaining your rationale for making our electoral system more difficult."
At least David is a Brit, so seems entitled to be obsessed with British politicians and Britain's electoral system. What I don't understand is your obsession with the problems of our electoral system.
As an American, I am fascinated with the British political system (and parliamentary systems elsewhere), but I wouldn't presume to tell you what's wrong with yours, as you have done with ours."
Then bog off the British site.
Brits talking amongst themselves be they in the US or UK have more rights as you would seem to suggest to discuss anything than you Johnny foreigner.
We don't get brought up to be weak compliant ants in our society. Maybe you wish we were. then you could feel at home.
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183. 14allan.
"I'm beginning to think the reason Bush won is because Gore unfortunately picked lieberman as his running mate. I for one would never have voted for him."
It was because of Liebrman that I did not vote for Gore. (In fact I didn't vote that year.because I didn't like Bush either. I was anti-LIebrman because he was strongly religious and I don't want religion in politics . (That's why I didn't vote for Carter.) Religious pliticians often listen to god instead of the electorate, or use god asd an excuse for whatever they are doing. Another reason he did not get my vote was because I suspected he was a warmonger. I was later proved right.
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252, Publius.
Thomas Jefferson believed in the occasional revolution to put things right.
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252 Pub , good piece.
I thought we should all believe our Government all the time though. They say something ,it must be right.
On single mums. statistically many black kids than white end up incarcerated ( a staggering number of males go through the penal system at some stage. I had heard 1 in 5 at one time in recent history.
Many for drug offences with no violence. The mum is left without a father.
Not saying that is what happened to your neighbour, but it is what happens for a lot.
Gary go prove it to yourself if you disagree and bring some real evidence when you have it.
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229. Publius.
I actually thought that overall, the Wings were the better team - better depth, better balance. But on the night, they just didn't seem to want it as badly. Pittsburgh was much more fired up. Stuart had a tough game (the penalty, the bad pinch and the awful clearing attempt that ended up in front of his own net) two goals against. Ouch. Maxime Talbot came to play, though. Terrible ice conditions, too, puck bouncing all over the place, but both teams had to cope with that.
As for Ipperwash, oh, yes. That is a notorious case. The whiff of Rambo-style policing hangs over that incident as if it had been sprayed by a skunk. There will always be the suspicion that a get tough order was given on consultation with the Provincial government. That smell will take a long, long time to go away. I think though that eventually the George family will obtain justice - and it will be served cold.
But there, it's the bully boy attitude, eh. The same thing at Vancouver airport, and the same result. And that public inquiry is going to have long lasting effects on policing in Canada, too. It would be nice to think that they would learn lessons about policing, but the main lesson they seem to have learned is to look carefully for bystanders with cameras, or move the person to a private room where they can't be seen, before they start roughing him up, and using a Taser as a cattle prod.
Anyhow, Ipperwash is why nobody does anything about the mess in Caledonia.
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Guns and Publius.
Being a city girl, guns were never part of my life. But my husband's family is from Texas and, like both of you, he handled guns from an early age (shotguns and rifles). He used to go hunting with our son and return with inedible ducks that tasted of fish. But they enjoyed the day out together.
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Not some book critic
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256. 14allandall41 wrote "Don't stop the music.;)"
+
ok then ~~~ unplugged b.marley & p.tosh ~~~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP8EVKgIYsg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTow1_rILS0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0shSZ92Qhs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3OOYEJ029k
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OK maybe it was one in 6 not one in 5 that were arrested.
Now take that felony convictions seem to effect the right to vote
Given the huge disproportionate number of Blacks in jail with felony convictions is this not a way of massaging votes.
Make Crack more of a crime than Coke because Black kids smoked crack. (proven so don't argue)
Make pot illegal and show how them black kids will ruin your daughter like the "refer Madness".
Given the tendency for blacks to vote dem this could be seen as a way of massaging the vote. And nancy reagan started a "war on drugs" to beef up the efforts.
People who have served their time should be allowed to vote.
Go demand that from your GOV or don't say the results are not massaged.
And all that before the Chads and polls get taken into account.
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255, Richard, I wish that I could back you up. Unfortunately, bitterness
is at the root of this kind of crime. It has support from the community.
One could say that this resentment is justified, but we all have to give
up something to move forward.
And, as far as alcoholism goes, they are susceptible to that disease.
I had a business partner who was 1/4 Sioux and 1/4 Choctaw and those
were the parts that drank. It ran in his family from his father's side.
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Ref 213. bere54
You've reminded me of something similar. When Jeb Bush was first elected in Florida he was asked by a reporter what he was going to do for black communities. His two word answer: "Probably nothing."
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Interested.
They are not taking lessons from the american police I hope.
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Ref 234. David_Cunard
He's not my idol. One of a number of assumptions on your part. I'm just correcting matters of fact in your posts.
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264, 14Allen.
It seems to me you are going overboard. Not everything is a conspiracy. Are you suggesting that blacks are jauled so that they cannot vote Democratic? That part is a little confused. It is true that a disproportionate number of blacks go to jail, but here are a variety of reasons for this. A big factor would be the status of homes in the ghetto. Often no father around, poor education results, welfare, foster care, gangs, the greater use of drugs, etc. This is a bad situation which the most altruistic minds find hard to rectify. Is it a conspiracy to manipulate the vote? No.
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264, 14allhappy: "People who have served their time should be allowed to vote."
In Vermont, not only do former convicts not lose their right to vote, those incarcerated are allowed to vote. I suppose it's done by absentee ballot. It has always struck me as outrageous that in national elections, states can deny certain otherwise eligible people the right to vote.
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Ref 241. saintDominick
You wrote: "I suspect you meant Bosnia Herzegovina..."
No. I meant exactly what I said. The 'mini war' called Operation Desert Fox which occurred at the same time as Clinton's impeachment hearing in December 1998. The same day in fact.
I stand by what I said.
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265, guns.
"I had a business partner who was 1/4 Sioux and 1/4 Choctaw and those were the parts that drank. It ran in his family from his father's side.
The native Alaskans are also suject to alcoholism. Does anyone kow why this is physiologically? Is it related to hypoglycemia?
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270, bere.
It is a question of states' rights. As a general principle, since we are a confederation, the federal government should have restrictions on power. In any case, we do not vote for the president, the electors do. States' rights again.
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The Ghettos Tryin To Kill Me!
Plan B - Backup Plan 4 Richtown
Fool I'm a vet you can bet that
I could dance underwater and not get wet (check it)
Its rainin' bullets and I'm still there
young ghetto vet in a wheelchair
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264, 14, I agree that our poor neighborhoods are dumping grounds for
people of whatever race. And, perhaps you would agree with Sen. Jim Webb
from Virginia in his thoughts on reform of the criminal justice system.
IMHO, we should deal with drug addiction as a disease, much as we do
alcoholism. Prison sentences should be given to dealers of hard drugs
(not MJ), not to addicts. And, MJ should be legalized and taxed, and
the funds used for gang-prevention and drug treatment programs.
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Ref 245 MarcusAureliusII
"What would the tribes do if the US government appeared to be building atom bombs just to use on them?"
We already know what the tribes would do. They have already done it.
The U.S. government did not have the technology to create an atom bomb in the 1700's to 1800's. They used something just as terribly sinister, and perversely deadly. Biological warfare. Clothing and blankets worn and used by white people visibly infected with small pox so that the pox would infect the material. These staple goods were then distributed to the native tribes (without washing them) in the full knowledge that the natives did not have any immunity to the pox and they would die horrid deaths. Hundreds of thousands of red people died in this dispicable, cowardly manner. Christian ministers, as well as "Indian Agents" and traders knowingly participated in this "low-tech bomb".
The warriors fought, or were captured and tortured, to the death; avenging the atrocity of the 'civilized' white people. Very few survived captivity. A warrior culture; the red man fought like Spartans and would not be enslaved. Only the very old, and the very young survived. The bravest and best died in battle, or in tortuous prisons, or of biological warfare. A strong, healthy people did not walk into 'reservations' (concentration camps) and become enslaved hoping they would be spared by their gods. The warrior prefered death to enslavement and humiliation. The very old and the very young allowed themselves to be placed on reservations to stay alive. Their only, and last hope to preserve the people.
Gitmo does not surprise me. The U.S. has a long history of inhumanity they can justify by turning their head and saying it need be done to protect 'civilization' as they have defined civility.
But you know this, Marcus. You talk of war and death, but are not a warrior. You understand some things of the heart of a warrior without ever really knowing the heart of a warrior. Do you think you could stare into the bore of a firearm in the hands of someone who wishes your death, at very intimate range, without flinching? Have you seen the muzzle flash? Have you ever felt the point of a knife, welded by one who means to kill you, penetrate into your flesh? Have you ever refused your own death against an armed attacker? Have you ever counted coo?
Perhaps you have. Perhaps not, but you hope you have the courage to face your own death. Do you have the courage to give your own life for your community?
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Marbles, you are right it is not a conspiracy that set this situation up. But it is a conspiracy to keep it that way. One funded by lots of people with vested interests. either way as the Scotus said "let them go" when it was shown that the Crack addicted folk go to Jail for longer than the coke heads.
(nice middleclass charlie)
Now on Law enforcement.
How many cops do you see patrolling gated communities.
Do you think if a few more did they would find crimes being committed or should the cops just trawl the poorer areas. Do they really thing the rich don't take drugs. Seeing as much violence is related to turf and drug selling on the blackmarket .
You are right it is not purely a race issue (if that was your point) it is a wealth issue. it just happens that many more blacks are poor than whites .
Now how many rich white folk sell pot to their friends (fine by me) or coke (not so fine) with the fer of being pulled for being suspicious looking.
The next bit I'll post in another window because the mods might find the story somehow not suitable.
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I went into the ex mayor of SF house for New years once. Past a long line of cops at the door. when inside 30 ft from the line of cops some rich SF kid asked if I could roll one up and gave me the good stuff. strangely no cops showed.
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272, Ms. Marbles, I don't know the answer to your question. I do know
from personal experience that some people just can't handle any
alcohol, that the disease is progressive, and that anyone can become
an alcoholic.
Of course, there have been functional alcoholics, such as Sir Winston. But,
they were able to function in spite of it, and even, on occasion, express
a wry wit while under the influence:
Elizabeth Braddock: Mr. Churchill, this is a disgrace. You are quite drunk.
Churchill: This may be well and true, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.
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Bere that is refreshing to hear some states can see that restricting the rights to vote of felons can be used by the PTB to rig the show.
And therefore allow them to vote. What happens if someone got cell phone use being made a felony(lol I wish) .
Improper use(or lack of awareness of surroundings) of cell phone users kills loads of people.
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The states that have the largest Black prison populations are these:
State / Black Population / Black Prison Pop.
Georgia 29% 64%
Ohio 12% 52%
Iowa 2% 24%
Minnesota 3% 37%
Wisconsin 6% 48%
Illinois 15% 65%
Missouri 11% 45%
Arkansas 16% 52%
Louisiana 33% 76%
Mississippi 36% 75%
Alabama 26% 65%
Tennessee 16% 53%
Kentucky 7% 36%
Indiana 8% 42%
Michigan 14% 55%
South Carolina 30% 69%
North Carolina 22% 64%
Virginia 20% 68%
Pennsylvania 10% 56%
New York 15% 51%
Delaware 19% 63%
Maryland 28% 77%
Connecticut 9% 47%
New Jersey 13% 64%
Rhode Island 4% 30%
(sorry if the numbers look a bit skewered)
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Ref 253. Gary_A_Hill
That was a shallow post Gary, and very amusing. Jake Tapper's book was, if not the very first, then one of the first that came out after the 2000 election. Sorry if I'm too quick to buy my books by your standards. I see you selected only one side of reviewers comments, who went to say:
"Tapper does, however, offer some new details, especially from inside the God-forsaken Gore camp."
Your reviewer also said this about the circumstances surrounding 14000 military votes:
"The circumstantial evidence that something sleazy happened here is convincing."
And your reviewer obviously found the book informative about the decisons that Gore took:
"I learned in Tapper's book that, in fact, Gore wanted to do just that four days after the election, but was talked out of it by Joe Lieberman and Ron Klain."
Things are not as bad as you tried to paint them. As for me, you can see I'm thorough: I also read Alan Derschowitz's book as well. Would you like a review on that book as well? Here you go:
"This well-reasoned and controversial book asks central questions about American democracy and the role of citizens and courts in our society." Library Journal
:-)
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#240. "Because (Blair) had a home in Sedgefield (Trimdon), and he was brought up in the adjacent area as I've pointed out to you".
But not, I believe, purchased before his selection. Being brought up in the general area as a child hardly qualifies, does it - I was born in Paignton, but that wouldn't give me a clue as to the current conditions in South Devon, would it? Not to put too fine a point on it, Blair was (and remains) an opportunist. Heaven forbid that he should ascend the European presidency.
"why do you have such a problem with 'pop stars' villas?"
Villas? The chattering classes' favourite euphemism for a house abroad. Snobbery doesn't become Labour.
The point, about which you appear to be deliberately obtuse, is that Mr and Mrs Blair took advantage of such hospitality while he was Prime Minister. Did President Reagan do that, or does The Queen? Since 1921, prime ministers have had "Chequers" for rest and recreation. If The Queen finds it agreeable to take her holidays at Balmoral, then surely her prime ministers could vacation in their home country. If nothing else, it would set an example.
"there is no such requirement for candidates for the US Lower House to live in their congressional districts."
Both a US Representative and a US Senator are required to be resident of the states which they represent. State legislatures (which actually run them) are more stringent. See also #101.
"An obsession with Tony Blair comes across in your posts, rather than explaining your rationale for making our electoral system more difficult."
I have to say that you're the one with the obsession, only praise have I read. My views of him have been stated here and with other subjects raised on this blog. I do not see that I am attempting to make our (British) system any more difficult, just following through on Justin's suggestion that pols should be "local". You forget (or ignore) that although I live in Southern California, I still have a vote.
#268. "(Tony Blair)'s not my idol."
From your defensive and hagiographical posts, that's how it appears. You haven't corrected any "fact", just given your opinion. And mine is that MPs should come from the areas which they represent.
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Ref 265. gunsandreligion
"And, as far as alcoholism goes, they are susceptible to that disease."
You think it's in the genes do you? Apart from one person, what evidence do you base your conclusion on?
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Moneyed outsider lost to the local? I am not sure that such event has any profound significance.
In sparsely populated regions, where a local person is well known and regarded positively, any outsider will have problems. Selection process is not greatly influenced by positive exposure of a newcomer in media. That process is more healthy here.
In condensed metropolitan areas incumbents have much higher chances to be reelected then newcomers regardless of what jerks they may be, unless there is a massive and prolonged negative "bombardment" in press and on TV. Prolonged negative campaign is crucial to "depose" lousy incumbent. Why? An average person who makes his/her pick in the election booths has no idea about most of candidates there. It is STILL voting based mostly on the party line OR, in the absence of that based on name recognition (Oh, I heard about this guy and nothing about this person). It just does not matter what she or he heard about this guy. Negatives and positives and names of different candidates for different positions are usually so mixed that making a sound judgement for an average person on any candidate is just unrealistic. One pulls the level for a candidate whose name one remembers. I call it a patriotic duty in ridiculous wrapping.
For state or national politics media exposure is essential for a successful candidate. Fueling that exposure by those with money is absolutely essential. Here it helps if, favored by those who control media, candidate is well spoken and has some oratorial skills. Not hurting are massively aired faux pas steps of an opponent. Bottom line:
money plays quite huge role in selection to and national election.
Candidate's political platform? By now all politicians - no exception -
learned that promises of "tax cuts" and other "money-save-gifts" to electorate is a way to go. What we learned about operation of a government and the new political logic are subjects that run afoul of each other. You cannot say G.W. Bush had not taught other politicans, including Obama, something.
There is also a valid question of, "How honest the election process in these United States is?" It is as honest as those who control it. Numerous reports in the last eight years add to the uneasiness one has about the whole process. Will the frequency of erratic tabulation and nisassignment of parties by the new, computerized process stop during this administration? Who knows. Misdeeds that succeeded but went unpunished, unchallenged, or uncovered may continue.
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Alcoholism amoung native peoples is difficult to explain in a short posting. One would have to first understand the role of spirituality and visions that are very important to the individual of red skin.
I will give it a try. Being as brief as possible.
All people have 'visions'. Some peoples, because of customs and beliefs, refuse their visions. Ignore them. Red people accept visions as reality. Like a whisper in the ear from somebody 'in the know'. An insider stock tip.
Hang on now. This is where it gets difficult.
What we (all of us) accept as reality is just...filling up time. Visions are reality, not everyday life. We live a hum-drum life between interesting events. The interesting events are foretold to us in visions. We are awaiting the vision we have witnessed to take place in our lives. The rest of time is just making diner, sweeping the floor, waking, sleeping, waiting...
When the vision reveals itself, we know how to react and what to do if we meditated and thought about the vision (instead of refusing what we saw in the vision) so that we make reasonable re-actions to the sudden events that confront us because we have been forewarned.
The sub-conscience is a wonderful playground. Extend your next (sleeping) nightmare for as long as you can. Yes; you can keep from waking out of fear if you try. The 'nightmare' becomes much more interesting as you make choices. Meditate as soon as you wake. Share your vision with an elder you trust. Explore the possibilities.
Visions can be induced. Total fasting is one way.
I received my "vision quest" name through fasting. This is dangerous and should be "assisted" by somebody who will watch from a distance.
Alcohol is another, less productive, method. One gets the same euphoria. Excessive euphoria is wasted and self-indulgent; but addictive.
Modern day Pow Wows prohibit alcohol use. It's bad medicine.
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279, guns.
"... anyone can become an alcoholic."
Except for those that don't have the stomach for it. But maybe not having the stomach for it has to do with not being habituated to heavy drinking, nor coming from a family that is. That would describe my background and no one in my large family is an alcoholic.
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284, Richard.
"You think it's in the genes do you? Apart from one person, what evidence do you base your conclusion on?"
It is a known problem on the reservations. I suspect it might be related to hypoclycemia. The Eskimos, for instance, had no sugar in their natural diet and readily became alcoholic when they came in contact with us. Alcohol is a sugar. In hypoglycemia blood sugar paradoxically drops when when sugar is ingensted. The body tries to correct the imbalance by craving yet more sugar (or alcohol?).
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Ref 283. David_Cunard
So do tell me, why is it that candidates for the US Lower House are not required to live in the Congressional districts?
Are you trying to compare states to constituencies? Getting a little confused? The comparison to our constituencies is congressional districts!
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255. RSM
Yeah, that accusation is easily made, but Akwesasne really is different.
Keep in mind that this is a fairly large country - larger in land area than the US. We have hundreds of individual first nations communities, all across the country.
Akwesasne is different for three main reasons.
First, you have to understand the geography. The "Thousand Islands" portion of the St. Lawrence River really deserves its name. The reserve straddles the border, and it is a sugglers' paradise - almost an infinite number of places to hide, dozens of alternate routes, very fast boats.
Second, it is essentially a suburb of Montreal. For years and years Montreal was the organized crime capital of Canada. Corruption was a way of life, if not indeed a philosophy of one of the parties - the Union Nationale, long since defunct.
Third, native peoples do not have to pay tax on cigarettes (or alcohol) sold on the reserve. Of course non-natives who buy cigarettes on the reserve don't pay tax either. The police are afraid to enforce the law on the reserve. The Surete (i.e., the provincial police force in Quebec) is regarded as an occupying force, so they avoid the reserve. The GRC (i.e., RCMP) have jurisdiction on the reserve, but clamping down on cigarettes was not a big priority - few men, thought not really to do much harm, bigger fish to fry. The reserve police are afraid of the smugglers, or worse. Fifty years ago it wasn't that big a problem.
Quebecers smoke a lot more per capita than other Canadians. When the government raised cigarette taxes to discourage smoking, and thereby to reduce health care costs, the price differential from NY to Quebec became huge. The federal government levies excise taxes on the tobacco companies at source - except for cigaretttes marked for reserves. The government does not levy excise taxes on exported cigarettes.
So (as came out in subsequent enforcement proceedings) the tobacco companies exported cigarettes to NY, and then turned a blind eye (or possibly worse) to re-importation of those cigarettes into Canada by the smugglers. I believe there was a subsequent judicial finding of fact that the tobacco companies had actively instigated and encouraged the smuggling, but I am not certain of that. In any case, this became a huge business in the 1980's and 1990's.
After a while Revenue Canada realized that it had been duped out of more than $ 1B in excise tax. This ultimately led to a long and complicated investigation of the tobacco companies.
But the damage had been done. Local law enforcement had been permanently intimidated by the smuggling gangs. Gunfire on the reserve and on the river was a nightly occurence. It seems to me that the mayor of the largest town had tried to stand up to them. His house was burned to the ground. If my recollection is correct, he and his family, and a fair number of others, were driven off the reserve, in fear of their lives.
Of course, once you get into the smuggling business, and into the violent intimidation business, it is only natural to branch out into other branches of business - expand your product line, so to speak.
And so we now have an enduring (20 years+) criminal problem that is politically sensitive in the highest degree, that the government can't solve. It is violent and dangerous. It has nothing to do with aboriginal rights. It has a lot to do with people involved in organized crime, many of whom happen to be aboriginals, and who happen to live on the reserve and take advantage of its special geography. My guess would be that the guys at the top are not aboriginals, but rather folks who have large market shares in criminal activities in Montreal, that almost anybody living in Montreal could name without a second's hesitation.
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Legislation in plain English? I understand this. If it is possible to cover all angles in many times complex matter, why not.
What I do not understand is, "this apparently reduces the power of lobbyists and decreases the value of experience among the political class" ???
Can anyone explain it to me? Especially "...decreases the value of experience among the political class" segment.
Sometimes the plain English can be somewhat confusingly inadequate.
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291, passtorian.
"Sometimes the plain English can be somewhat confusingly inadequate."
Not if written by a good writer. Or, maybe, it is their intention to confuse. I don't put anything past politicians.
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281, Raggae.
Horrible. How I would love to break up the ghettos and give these children a chance. Kids emulate their peers, but the ghettos have little diversity, and the only people they have to emulate are each other.
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Ref 288. allmymarbles
Oh Marbles - don't tell me you think it's in the DNA as well? Don't you think this is simply a variation on the "They eat their babies" syndrome? Whilst different races have a propensity to behave in certain ways, this almost always has cultural or circumstantial explanations. I know it's an issue on the reservations - perhaps it's because they are in reservations!
On another subject, I went to see an Iranian film earlier this week, "Blackboards." Actually, directed by an Iranian woman, and filmed around the Iran/Iraq border.
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Richard, Ms. Marbles, I know quite a few Indians, and have actually
spent time on a reservation. (I had a half French Canadian, half Sioux
girlfriend.)
They are particularly susceptible to it. I have no idea why. Perhaps
something about how their bodies process sugar, but that's just a guess.
Same thing with milk - some tribes cannot digest milk.
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The propganda network Al Jazeera is supporting the bogus Iranain vote not acknowledging the obvious fraud and the BBC refuses to acknowledge the real winner.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhTf2C2N5OU&feature=related
Seriously Why not.
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Ref 288. allmymarbles - continued
A significantly higher proportion of Americans are diagnosed with mental illness than anywhere else in the world. Does that mean that Americans have something causing 'mental illness' in their genes?
Here's another thought. When an American male with premium care health insurance is thinking he's not right, maybe a little depressed, maybe a a mid-life crisis, what does he do? And what's the likely outcome?
When a native American is feeling the same, what does he do? And what's the likely outcome?
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Ref 296. MagicKirin
A lot like the American Election in 2000 then. I bet you didn't realise you had so much in common with the Iranians?
They even drink Coca Cola!
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Some background on the current standoff at Akwasane here.
Yours,
Pinko
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#298
Richard,
That's easy. The American buys a new shotgun and a 911 that he then pretends is his wife's car while he keeps his pickup hidden behind the house.
My neighbour, who is one sixteenth choctaw indian, does the same but then hits a doe by driving too fast, then is renamed 'Hits running deer' at parties.
As for the poor guys living on a reservation in poverty with no running water or electricity, living in atrailer if they are lucky? I guess they do whatever they can.
Sad Sam
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Ref 295. gunsandreligion
Try imagining your situation is completely reversed in every respect.
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#289. Richard_SM: "So do tell me, why is it that candidates for the US Lower House are not required to live in the Congressional districts?"
I believe it is concerned with the way in which Representatives were first created, at a time when the American electorate was so much smaller. As the population has grown, today it is connected with the number of citizens (not electors) they represent, as shown at the last census. However, it is of little concern to me as I cannot bring any influence to bear upon the subject, but I can with the British system. Unlike you, I wouldn't presume to tell my hosts how to conduct their affairs. I can air my opinions on which candidate would be my preference, but not on how the system works. In any case, most people are concerned with what their state legislators do, since their actions affect daily lives more directly than the members of Congress - for example, the issues of assisted suicide and same gender marriage are considered to be States' Rights matters. As I have made clear, state legislators are required to live in the area which they represent.
Next time you address me directly, DO NOT SHOUT. It's offensive to other posters as well as myself.
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Richard_SM (#282) "Your reviewer ... "
My reviewer?
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00Nothingatall00 #256;
"Then bog off the British site.
Brits talking amongst themselves be they in the US or UK have more rights as you would seem to suggest to discuss anything than you Johnny foreigner.
We don't get brought up to be weak compliant ants in our society. Maybe you wish we were. then you could feel at home."
Has it ever occurred to you that there are far more British "foreigners" in America than there are American foreigners in Britain? Considering that America has about 6 times the population of Britain and that movement between the two countries is relatively unrestricted, that says something about which country is a more desirable place to live in.
I think your chauvanism and xenophobia is representative of a large segment of the British population, at least half and much of the rest of Europe's population, maybe 90%. It's refreshing to see it in its pure, unadluterated, unabashed, least disguised form. It makes me certain that the loathe I have for Europe is well justified.
Oh, by the way, insofar as who are the weak compliant ants, it was Britain, not the US that had the EU constitution and Lisbon shoved down its throat without a vote. And while America's government went to war in Iraq with overwhelming public support of its population, Britain government went to war in Iraq over large public opposition. Your government gets away with being a tyrannical dictatorship because Britain is largely a nation of sheep just like the rest of Europe.
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"299. At 03:57am on 14 Jun 2009, Richard_SM wrote:
Ref 296. MagicKirin
A lot like the American Election in 2000 then. I bet you didn't realise you had so much in common with the Iranians?
They even drink Coca Cola!"
Except that we don't have a leader that denies the Holocaust.
good cheap shot.
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302, actually, I don't have to. Everything in America is completely mixed
up and reversed. You can't avoid it. It's not Us vs. Them. Us and Them
are the same.
You really should come here and spend some time if you want to understand
it. And, I don't mean just Manhattan or LA, but real places in the heartland.
I don't think that anyone could comprehend what a mixed-up, chaotic place
this is without actually being part of the problem and solution.
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David_Cunard (#303) "I believe it is concerned with the way in which Representatives were first created, at a time when the American electorate was so much smaller."
You're probably right about this. Also, the writers of the Constitution may not have contemplated the idea of Congressional districts. The members of the House of Representatives may have been elected at large at first.
It's a historical curiosity in any case, because it almost never is the case that a candidate for Congress is not a registered voter in the district which he or she seeks to represent.
In parliamentary systems, it may be more common, although I cannot say for certain. As I understand, it sometimes happens that a party can win control of the Commons while the party leader loses his seat. He can then get another seat by forcing out some junior member of the party and winning his sear. I believe this happened with PM Maxkenzie King of Canada.
http://canadaonline.about.com/cs/primeminister/p/pmking.htm
Interesting.
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Typo. That should be Mackenzie King.
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295, guns.
"They are particularly susceptible to it. I have no idea why. Perhaps something about how their bodies process sugar, but that's just a guess."
That's what I meant when I suggested hypoglycemia. You mention that some tribes cannot drink milk. Many of Latin origin can't either. I can't, and I have never seen either of my parents with a glass of milk in their hands.
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294, Richard.
"...don't tell me you think it's in the DNA as well?"
It may well be, in the same manner that the tendency for diabetes is commonly genetic. On a broader scale, It is well known that there are differences among different peoples. Blood type, for instance. Northern Europeans are motly type O. Mediterrean people are mostly type A, etc., etc. Africans are subject to sickle cell anemia, and those with this condition do not contrct maleria. Most Latins lose the enzyme necessary to digest milk. It is possible that Eskimos and native Americans are subject to hypoglycemia, although I don't know if they are, or if this is the cause of their alcoholism. Yes, peoples do vary. That is not a myth and it is not racism. It is medical fact.
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293, Richard.
Thank you for telling me about the Iranian film. I will look for it. Don't you think it is interesting that it was directed by an Iranian woman? It gives the lie to people's preconceptions.
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error. The reference above should read 294, Richard.
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277. At 01:31am on 14 Jun 2009, 14allandall41 wrote:
"Marbles, you are right it is not a conspiracy that set this situation up. But it is a conspiracy to keep it that way. One funded by lots of people with vested interests. either way as the Scotus said "let them go" when it was shown that the Crack addicted folk go to Jail for longer than the coke heads."
14-- Many people in every generation make it out of the ghettos, and disappear into the larger society forever. They do it by working hard, living honestly with themselves and others, saving rather than spending, getting a sound education for themselves and making certain of a good education for their children, and avoiding the traps that would consume their lives and do consume the lives of those they leave behind in poverty and self-destruction. No 'conspiracy' can stop people like that, so quit looking for someone to blame.
Your post refutes your own argument - who is using crack? For too many, hopelessness is its own excuse. I can give you specific examples, of every race, if you like, including my own family, my wife's family, friends and neighbors.
Every possible and useful help should be given, but no one can be given a good life - you can only have that if you make that for yourself.
KScurmudgeon
tired of professional hopelessness
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298, Richard.
"A significantly higher proportion of Americans are diagnosed with mental illness than anywhere else in the world. Does that mean that Americans have something causing 'mental illness' in their genes?"
Maybe American doctors use diffrent criteria to diagnose mental illness. Aren't they always diagnosing children with "attention deficit disorder" and drugging them? I can't believe there are that many abnormal children. It is what we used to call "overactive" and waited for them to outgrow it. (Which they did, all by themselves.) In Sweden, at least when I was there, there were virtually no cars stolen. You know why? They called it "car borrowing."
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310, Ms. Marbles, possibly. I do know (from dealing with alcoholics)
that binge alcoholics snarf up sugar after they come out of a binge.
So, alcohol somehow substitutes for sugar in some metabolic role
in an alcoholic.
I didn't know that about Latins and milk. The ability to digest dairy
products is probably a mutation that occurred during the neolithic age.
I did a search and obtained this page on wikipedia, which lists all
Native Americans as lactose intolerant, which is apparently what prevents
them from digesting milk. I was surprised that so many other groups
have such a high percentage of people who cannot digest milk. I thought
that it was a rare phenomenon, but apparently not.
I haven't seen anything relating alcoholism to ethnicity, but the
information is probably out there somewhere. I don't know if anybody
has identified an "alcoholism gene," but it could well be there.
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#309. Gary_A_Hill: "Typo. That should be Mackenzie King."
As should winning his sear, presumably "seat", unless it's the misspelling of seer, which politicians and their wives (both American and European) have been known to use! :)
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316, guns.
"I didn't know that about Latins and milk. The ability to digest dairy products is probably a mutation that occurred during the neolithic age."
We can eat cheese, but not milk. Some people have suggested tha the reason someLatins could not drink milk was becauset parents stopped giving it to them and they then lost th enzyme. Not true, at least not in my case. My mother believed the American doctors who said children needed milk. So it would be poured out and I couldn't leave the table until I drank it. I sat there for hours until the milk soured. My mother eventually gave up, thank goodness. Of my two brothers and two sisters, only one drinks milk -- occasionally.
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316, guns.
"...binge alcoholics snarf up sugar after they come out of a binge. So, alcohol somehow substitutes for sugar in some metabolic role in an alcoholic."
Based on the possibility that hypoglycemia was the cause of alcoholism in someone I knew, I spoke with her and we arranged that whenever she got a craving for swwets (she always had some in her pocket) or alcohol, she would eat a protein. She boiled up two pounds of shrimp and ate one whenever she felt a craving. I alwo suggested a vitamin regimen for her, which she followed. I lost touch with her after about two months and she had lost her desire for alcohol. Did she backslide? I have no way of knowing.
It is curious that in rehab they substitute sweets for alcohol. If it really is hypoglycemia we are talking about, then that is pretty stupid.
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Ms. Marbles, about the alcohol thing - I don't know what the basis of it
is. I've seen all kinds of alcoholics in family members, employees and
business partners, and just on the street. It has been my experience that
Native Americans are more susceptible to it than the general population,
but I don't know if there is a genetic link. Anybody can become one.
In any case, the cure is the same: getting people to realize that they
have a problem, to recognize that they cannot drink any booze, and that they
have to give it up. It's very hard to do this. In all probability, it
is more addictive than heroin.
I don't go out of my way to find these people. They just wind up
on my doorstep.
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230, guns.
We have all known drunks. We had close ties with a very successful consultant who put away at least a fifth a day. He funtioned beautifully. His son, who took to drink did not fare well. I knew another efficient drunk, a girl I worked with, who was a top-notch statistician. I saw put away eight double martinis, get up, and walk away. By age 20 she had irreversible liver damage. When I ran into her some years later, she was suffering from wet brain. I don't know if either of these people had hypoglycemia. The woman I mentioned previously definitely did. You can sometimes spot a hypoglycemic by their habit of eating little snacks all day long. That is the body trying to maintain a constant blood sugar level. I was always one of those snackers and much berated for not eating "three square meals." (And if you are envisioning a big, fat woman, change the vison. I am very slender.)
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321, further.
Guns if you have any heavy-drinking friends, get them to take vitamin B1. Drunks are deficient in this vitamin.
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If there is a stand to be taken
Kings Music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeYfF9EuFOo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NbQ0lVA6kw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG54AODZyEc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yX-UYwxX_U&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_B2FE2ti2w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ0cnSfB5DE
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rwf #299
Richard do you also believe in the 9/11 conspirancy?
Bush won both 2000 and 2004 deal with it.
The American people had a free and fair election.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGCbgpIf3E&feature=related
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Ref 316, Guns
"I didn't know that about Latins and milk. The ability to digest dairy products is probably a mutation that occurred during the neolithic age."
This Latin loves cheese and drinks milk with cereal every morning. My wife, who is from Spain, is allergic to diary products. I am not a doctor, but I really don't think allergy to dairy products, or anything else, is exclusive to a specific ethnic group. I suspect it may have something to do with our metabolism or, perhaps, with the food our digestive system became accustomed to as we grew up.
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Ref 298, Richard
"When a native American is feeling the same, what does he do? And what's the likely outcome?"
One of my daughters in law is a Cherokee native American and she does whatever she pleases. Generalizations and pre-conceived opinions based on the way certain persons want to portray countries or societies they don't care for are often wrong. Native Americans who wish to live in reservations are free to do so, but the overwhelming majority live among us as productive members of our society. The are no better or worse than anybody else.
At the risk of sounding defensive, may I remind you of the plight of the Jews, gypsies, Basque and other ethnic groups in Europe? Yes, native Americans were victimized until not too long ago, but today they enjoy the same freedoms and opportunities as everyone else. If they choose to remain in a reservation and drink all day, that's their prerogative, nobody is forcing them to do it.
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SD #327;
"One of my daughters in law is a Cherokee native American and she does whatever she pleases...Native Americans who wish to live in reservations are free to do so, but the overwhelming majority live among us as productive members of our society....they enjoy the same freedoms and opportunities as everyone else. If they choose to remain in a reservation and drink all day, that's their prerogative, nobody is forcing them to do it."
As far as I am concerned, that is the first time you have told the truth on this message board. Those looking for every excuse they can find to bash America will be momentarily disturbed by the facts but I have no doubt they will continue to lie or base their arguments on their own unsupported stereotypes and bigoted prejudices.
This is one more proof of the superiority of America's civilization and the rapid social progress it continues to make in perfecting its democratic society.
Speaking about democracy, IMO the 2000 election as conducted in Florida was neither entirely free nor at all fair. It did not meet the test in Florida's state constitution of reflecting the will of the voters of Florida. Besides the widespread reports of police preventing some African Americans from reaching the polls, the design of the ballots themselves was defective. (They were designed by a Democrat.) Many who thought they were voting for Gore actually inadvertently cast their ballots for Buchannan. This was because there were so many candidates that they were listed in two columns and the hole they punched was directly adjacent to the one they should have punched to select the candidate they actually intended to vote for. The election should have been re-run on that basis alone. Had that happened, I think it's clear Gore would have won Florida and the Presidency with it. It was exactlyh what the Republicans didn't want to happen. Personally I voted for Gore. I felt a stick of wood was the lesser of two evils when compared to the village idiot with a history of alcoholism. However, when the attack on 9-11 happened, I was glad Bush was President and not Gore. I don't know how Gore would have reacted. I think Gore would have just as readily invaded Iraq as Bush did. While many Americans would like to forget the facts, that invasion had widespread support in both Congress and among the American People. To this day, we do not know the truth about Saddam Hussein having had chemical and biological weapons. My personal best guess is that they were well hidden, probably in Syria. That's based on public reports from Israeli sources in January 2003 which reported large convoys of trucks headed from Iraq to Syria.
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300. Pinko.
LOL.
You notice that on the link the aboriginal rights card is being played for all its worth, without even the slightest hint or mention of the 20+ years of violence and intimidation. Hilarious.
The long and the short of it is that the rather wealthy criminals who run the smuggling business at Akwesasne simply do not want any law enforcement agency, including, obviously, Canadian Borders Services, to be able to interrupt their business.
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MAII:
This is one more proof of the superiority of America's civilization and the rapid social progress it continues to make in perfecting its democratic society.
Huh? We'll be lucky if we don't devolve into civil war at this point.
Who are you trying to kid?
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300, pinko, this sounds suspiciously like an incident which occurred a
few months back when some Mexican gangs hired civilians to march across
a bridge to the US waving signs that read "Mexican Army Brutality."
Nobody believed that one either, in the US or Mexico.
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An interesting development that has not been mentioned by anyone on this blog, and that ought to be of great interest to all of us, is the fact that the Administration has already thrown in the towel on the issue of government-mandated healthcare. Lacking the votes needed to pass universal healthcare, the Senate appointed Senator Conrad to find a compromise that appears to be focused on the creation of "Co-Ops" sponsored and supported by large business sectors to provide healthcare to all employees working for large, medium and small firms...using private insurers.
The proposed Co-ops are nothing more than a variation of the HMOs we currently have and are designed to show "change" where there is none. The co-op proposal is presented as a solution that would reduce business operating costs, improve business competitiveness, reduce medical costs through competitiveness, and increase the number of people covered. How will a program that is similar to what already exists cover the 46 million Americans who can not afford healthcare insurance for a variety of reasons ranging from not being able to afford premiums, to pre-existing conditions, and prohibitive costs for the self-employed remains a mystery. If this charade passes it will, no doubt, be portrayed as a major breakthrough when, in fact, it is no different from what we had before. President Truman and Clinton tried healthcare reform and failed for the same reason President Obama is going to fail: most Americans oppose socialized medicine because of ideological reasons.
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332, St. D, in my case you might be right about the ideology, but a
bigger factor for me is the growing deficit; pretty soon the Federal
Gov't will only be able to pay interest on the debt. There won't be
money for anything else.
What we need to do is to get the economy back on track so that we can actually
run a trade surplus for once; then we would be able to tackle problems
like the ones that you have highlighted.
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wow I think you should all go to an alcoholic clinic for a while.
Learn a little.
Kurmdgeoun.
Do stop with that typical american crap of if I can do it why didn't they.
except in your case you are not even saying Me.
get to the real world.
your blinkers are stopping you seeing the bigger picture.
Yea we can all get somewhere.
but your pull yourselves up by your boot strap is the typical crap that has led to so many s plight being ignored by those that when it comes down to it were given a better deal.
Major word for the day" Empathy."
So kurmudgeon from what low did you rise.
Are you saying the crack addicted baby has the same start and chances as the rich middle class(yes middle class are more than rich on a global scale) kid from the gated community.
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Erroneous the auraless.
when An american comes to a british site asking why hey dare discuss america they should expect a mouth ful.
Just as you probably got when tyou tried to tell the french in France what they say.
On addiction theory.
the same people often are the ones that came up with Pot laws.
Now that does not mean they get all wrong but it does mean they are not infallible.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
SD some want to live in the reservation living as their people have for a long time.
Not many city dwellers live the old life.
Many are forced to the city because there was no life to be led on the reservation. There they were persecuted and restricted.
Or they can live in casino town .
Go look at Wounded Knee .
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242. At 10:48pm on 13 Jun 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:
McJakome (#233) "The decision was, in fact, illegal. The Constitution should have prevailed, in which case the House of Representatives would have chosen the president." No, for the following reason:
"It is emphatically, the province and duty of the judicial department, to say what the law is." (Marbury v. Madison)
You have misunderstood. Marbury vs. Madison established that the Supreme Court could declare acts of the congress unconstitutional, NOT that they could amend the US Constitution. I have added the quote from the document at the end. The provision is quite clear that in a disputed election the House would choose. In this case, the candidate with most votes would become president and the runner up vice president. Imagine the fun of V.P. Gore in tandem with GWB! Moreover, our heritage from British Common Law, stari decises requires the court to give deference to previous cases, and there were in fact previous elections decided this way.
US Constitution, Article II: "The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted. The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed; and if there be more than one who have such Majority, and have an equal Number of Votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately chuse by Ballot one of them for President; and if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner chuse the President. But in chusing the President, the Votes shall be taken by States, the Representation from each State having one Vote; a quorum for this Purpose shall consist of a Member or Members from two-thirds of the States, and a Majority of all the States shall be necessary to a Choice. In every Case, after the Choice of the President, the Person having the greatest Number of Votes of the Electors shall be the Vice President. But if there should remain two or more who have equal Votes, the Senate shall chuse from them by Ballot the Vice-President."
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OH I forgot it's sunday and MA mum is doing the modding.
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331 GnR I'm confused.
how is it like the incident you mention.(i'm not familiar with that story).
It seems that Pinko's linked article shows that the Gov (of canada)(and probably america) is being heavy handed and discriminatory.
Freedom for the people.
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336. john-In-Dublin
337. 338. 14allandall41
"This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules".
+
Come on chaps stick to the subject (which is something about)
"Local control and plain English"
Smiley Culture - Saxon - Cockney translation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_ZDPMwrPDM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkIz3-8wRgo&NR=1
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GnR most "functional alcoholics" would be crazed criminals if it were made illegal.
The reason Churchill was functioning is as with most brits he lives in a society that is quite frankly drunk most days.(or at least drinking) so they do not call the out. and their lives are manageable.
( 2/3 busness deals concluded over a drink)( How many go to the pub every night etc. Well the BBC had a post on it a while back in case you mods missed that)
To all you bootstrappers.
You missed the point.
Why is someone able to smoke pot within 30 ft of a line of officers of San Francisco cops. but down the next neighbourhood they are getting raided by the swat team.
I am sure the big white family had Guns as well as drugs in their house and I could smell pot on the way out, so the cops on the door could smell it..
Drug laws are applied with racial and socio-economic bias.
the supreme court agreed ( and yea OK why believe them , I'm with anyone on that) but no I was wrong eh?
(Mods in all seriousness how does this breach any rules.
I do not condone or encourage use of the illegal and censorable substance I merely relate a story of inequality in reference to it.
A story of inequality in application of the law. I did not name people Explain how this Condones an illegal activity.
I would like to discuss that topic with you directly seeing as you are misinterpreting the english language and in a way that gives cause to wonder about your suitability as a moderator.)
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MC J I like the quotation marks. Now if people complain it is because they can't read.
;)
(bit like them constitution writers who couldn't spell any better than me.;)
On the subject of plain english. How about that classic line there
"if there be more than one who have such Majority"
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#332. saintDominick: "most Americans oppose socialized medicine because of ideological reasons."
Shouldn't that more accurately read "Most Americans who oppose socialized medicine do so because of ideological reasons."?
If most Americans oppose socialized medicine, then it is quite possible that Senator McCain would be living in The White House. He isn't - and they aren't.
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343
LOL but the rights and issues arising from the removal of rights on a reservation is local control.;)
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288. At 02:33am on 14 Jun 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
284, Richard.
"You think it's in the genes do you? Apart from one person, what evidence do you base your conclusion on?"
It is a known problem on the reservations. I suspect it might be related to hypoclycemia. The Eskimos, for instance, had no sugar in their natural diet and readily became alcoholic when they came in contact with us. Alcohol is a sugar. In hypoglycemia blood sugar paradoxically drops when when sugar is ingensted. The body tries to correct the imbalance by craving yet more sugar (or alcohol?).
There is more to this. Japanese and Koreans [from personal knowledge and discussions with Korean doctors] are less tolerant of alcohol than Europeans. They are less likely to die of Alcohol poisoning because they vomit before a toxic level is reached [tendency, not 100%]. They also have a higher rate of lactose intolerance in their populations. The Native Americans are generally supposed to have branched off from this population. Not all observations of race should be attacked as racist, as this might prevent medical help from reaching those who need it.
To return to the Koreans and Japanese, alcohol use is an accepted and socially regulated part of their culture, it is restricted by age and time [most will not take a drink with lunch and regard it as shameful], and they often talk admiringly of the ability of westerners to drink so much without vomiting. Draw your own conclusions.
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Ref 339, 14All
"SD some want to live in the reservation living as their people have for a long time."
Absolutely, and as far as I know nobody blames them, criticizes them, or challenges their right to do so. My point was that the majority have chosen to join mainstream America and enjoy the same rights and privileges as everyone else.
I just had the exhilarating experience of having one of my posts removed! Alas, I feel like celebrating as I suspect the removal was prompted by a complaint from a person who seems to enjoy a lot of latitude on this blog.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zRno88noeI
this is the aim.
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00nothingatall00 #339;
"Or they can live in casino town ."
What's wrong with this?;
http://www.foxwoods.com/
On your entire wretched blot, your skewered isle, there isn't anything even remotely like it. That's why most Brits leave the UK when they get a vacation if they can afford it. And guess what? When they can...many come here.
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342, 14happy, I believe that the point that chronophobe and IF have been
making is that criminals are using the plight of these people as an
excuse to legalize smuggling of illegal substances and "services."
If the Indians there had set up some sort of legitimate government with
real police and so forth, I'm sure that attitude of chrono & IF would
be just a touch more sympathetic.
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343, Reggae, you must live in a rope factory. Be careful, some of
those strands of rope are pretty strong these days...
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320, guns.
Last word on drunks. Generally drunks come from drunken families or drunken societies (e.g., Swedem, Russia, Ireland). Drink is often a rite of passage. The first drink is delalyed until they are 18 or 21. That makes it a very desirable grown-up thing, instead of an alcoholic beverage. Whenever we had wine at dinner (not a daily routine), we gave each child a heavily watered glass of wine. Even the toddler got a couple of drops to join the family. As they got older, the water got less. It was never treated as something special. None of them became drunks.
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I was moderated when I quoted from MAII and commented.
So why don't I just repeat the quotes from MAII without comment? Since they cannot possibly moderate me for quoting from this list.
# 305
"I think your chauvanism [sic] and xenophobia is [sic] representative of a large segment of the British population, at least half and much of the rest of Europe's population, maybe 90%. It's refreshing to see it in its pure, unadluterated [sic], unabashed, least disguised form. It makes me certain that the loathe [sic] I have for Europe is well justified."
And # 328
"Those looking for every excuse they can find to bash America will be momentarily disturbed by the facts but I have no doubt they will continue to lie or base their arguments on their own unsupported stereotypes and bigoted prejudices."
Some may find it amusing to have MAII directing accusations of chauvanism [sic], xenophobia, unsupported stereotypes and bigoted prejudices at other people.
But, in the immortal words of the late PM Francis Urquhart, "You might well think that; I couldn't possibly comment.'
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I tried and I tried and the Lord know I tried
To make them understand
I tried, oh tried how I tried
But they just can't understand
The more victimization is up on their back
The more foolish they become
The more victimization is up on their back
They satisfy Lord for less
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=276nPwlYCgs&feature=related
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On local control for the Mohawks.
I asked why not move the border posts to the boundary of the mohawk nation.
Answer would be somethign like. "well that would be like recognising them as a seperate nation (which BTW they are) between two other nations(which BTW they are).
so it would be too close to the truth. and set a precedent for other tribes to claim Independence rather than accept anything from those that have done so much to ignore the treaties signed.
We could not blockade them because putting a nation under siege these days is rather naughty(like it was ever OK)
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
349 St Dominick WELL DONE. Now you are a moderate.
Thrilling isn't it;)
I suspect his mum is the one that struck it.
;)
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Oh folk I have welded the steel for two casino's. At a factory that sacked a girl because she was an American Indian.
Though they said otherwise.
(before my time) but the shop foreman at the time was there when I worked there and had not reason to admit it except that he thought the Boss was wrong to do it(but not strong enough to have a go at the boss)
And thought she was a real good welder fabricator.
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Ref 349, David
"Most Americans who oppose socialized medicine do so because of ideological reasons."?
You are right. The other reason, which deserves consideration, is cost (Ref 333, G&R). The argument that the cost of a massive government-run program would be absorbed with savings and improvements in efficiency - without raising taxes - is disingenous. There is a good probability that if such program is put in place many corporations that currently provide medical coverage for their employees will eliminate that benefit and will ask their employees to join the government program. Should that happen, we are not talking about healthcare for 46 million Americans, but healthcare for over 300 million people at a time when our government is running massive deficits, our corporations are struggling to stay afloat, and the average citizen is drowning in debt.
Universal healthcare would help corporate America inasmuch as it would allow them to reduce the cost of their benefit packages considerably making them more competitive, but where is the money to pay for such program going to come from?
I suspect that is the reason Sen. Conrad (D) is pursuing a compromise involving co-ops sponsored by corporations to reduce private insurance premiums through competition. In theory, if all the automotive companies, for example, join forces and request bids from insurance companies they are more likely to get a better deal from those vying to get such a large pool of participants than if they tried to get insurance coverage indepently. The problem is that such "compromise" would affect mostly those who already have employer provided insurance, leaving those who can not afford insurance premiums or who can not get it because of pre-existing conditions out on a limb.
Unless the administration comes up with a credible plan that demonstrates insurance coverage canbe provided for the 46 million that currently don't have any, and for those who are under-insured, I doubt healthcare reform will pass this year or any time soon. People are looking for specifics, not gimmicks.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
David (#317), yes, but that was an obvious typo. I should proof more carefully, but I do like to get names right.
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"14 Jun 2009, David_Cunard wrote:
If most Americans oppose socialized medicine, then it is quite possible that Senator McCain would be living in The White House. He isn't - and they aren't"
We are gonna be sorry when he puts that special "Obama" touch on it. The election was not a pro-obama vote it was a anti-bush vote. When people wake to how Obama is wrecking the country then the Republicans will be back.
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GnR it seems the mods have a problem with truth again.
(strange that) I say this to yuo and interested.
No where in that article linked in post 300 by chrono (aka Pinko) does it say anything about a bunch of criminals or gangs or any of the suggestions made here.
It simply talks about abuse of the locals.
Apparently it is wrong of me to actually paste the article that was linked. But please go to it and find anything to substantiate your argument It seems that it an article about a woman dying at rough hands and another loosing a baby because somemone made her take an X ray in a non medical X ray system.
The reason for that post to be modded is really quite strange
But then that's about normal .
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352 Guns,
The Clash Give 'Em Enough Rope
Tommy Gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh0orhvcxBY&feature=PlayList&p=4195E160317297BB&index=1
+
The Clash - Stay Free
the clash and mikey dread-bank robber/rockers galore mix
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdGT1xvCuI0
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"342, 14happy, I believe that the point that chronophobe and IF have been
making is that criminals are using the plight of these people as an
excuse to legalize smuggling of illegal substances and "services."
If the Indians there had set up some sort of legitimate government with
real police and so forth, I'm sure that attitude of chrono & IF would
be just a touch more sympathetic."
My problem GnR is that Chrono said nothing of the sort nor did the linked essay.
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McJakome (#340) continues to insist that he knows the U. S. Constitution better than the members of the Supreme Court and the Senate. The handling of the electoral votes is governed by the Twelfth Amendment to the Constitution:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxii.html
The House of Representatives chooses the President only when there is no majority in the electoral vote, however in 2000 there was a majority. There might not have been if some of the electoral votes had been successfully challenged. Challenges were brought by several members of the House of Representatives, but these were unanimously rejected by the Senate. The procedure was according to the joint rules of the U. S. Congress, which is the ultimate judge of presidential elections.
Does anybody but McJakome think we (in the US) would be better off if Constitutional questions were settled by a poll of anonymous bloggers rather than by our duly constituted government?
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00nothingatall00
"In 1986 the Mashantucket Pequot Tribal Nation opened the original high-stakes bingo hall. Today Foxwoods comprises six casinos that collectively offer more than 7,000 slot machines and an incredible 400 tables for 17 different types of table games, including 100 for poker. There's a luxurious, high-tech Race Book, as well as the world's largest Bingo Hall.
Foxwoods is the largest casino in the world, with 340,000 square feet of gaming space in a complex that covers 4.7 million square feet. More than 40,000 guests visit Foxwoods each day.
Accommodations at the resort total 1,416 guest rooms and suites, including the 824 room Grand Pequot Tower, 312 room Great Cedar Hotel and the 280 room Two Trees Inn. For conventions and group events, Foxwoods features more than 55,000 square feet of meeting space and 25 conference rooms.
MGM Grand at Foxwoods has added nearly 2 million square feet of overall space, featuring significantly increased hotel, entertainment, restaurants and gaming venues as well as enhanced corporate retreat, meeting and convention resources."
http://www.foxwoods.com/AboutFoxwoods.aspx
If what you said is true, how do you explain that in around 20 years, a single tribal nation in the US has built a resort and casino possibly greater than all of Monte Carlo combined?
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Foxwood facts.Reservation population 71.Money provided by Malayans.They get most of the payoff.Are they all rich from those casinos? Er,no,false reasoning as it has been harmful to them taking control of their programmes that affect them.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#364. toughdirtyjoe: "When people wake to how Obama is wrecking the country then the Republicans will be back."
I think there's gonna a b-i- i-g sleep. First of all, they have to get their act together, no-one wants them now in their present disarray. And the President has three more years before a direct challenge can come about. Go back to watching O'Reilly and more especially Hannity if you want your opinion validated - or listen to the windbag Limbaugh. They'd rather tear down Mr Obama than help him improve America.
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el conquistador;
Do the math.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1003869-5,00.html
The Malaysian Chinese investor Tong will make a billion dollars over the life of his contract until 2018. The details are not public. Gross receipts run about a billion a year. The rest of the profits will be shared by a tribe of about 200. Presumably they are raking in plenty for themselves now and will make a lot more after 2018. It's become a prototype for other tribes to exploit their land too. Far better than dreaming about hunting and fishing on millions of acres of land other people live on now that they'd never get back.
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Dear Old South,
I guess that is one of the worst things someone can say about a person...that "this (Obama supporting) opinion is only an opinion of the minority."
OUCHHH.
Hmmm, But, *actually* is it not true that you are lonely for people whose opinions converge with yours?
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#365, 14andhappy, if you look at IF's post #290, you'll see where he goes into
the issue of proper government being driven off by organized crime.
For example, he brings up the issue of the mayor of the largest town
being intimidated by having his house burned to the ground.
In part of the link that chrono posted, there is a torturous argument
by the guilty parties that they are somehow entitled to smuggle because
of the Jay treaty.
Perhaps chrono and IF can provide further links to support their position.
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"368. At 7:07pm on 14 Jun 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:
McJakome (#340) continues to insist that he knows the U. S. Constitution better than the members of the Supreme Court and the Senate. The handling of the electoral votes is governed by the Twelfth Amendment to the Constitution"
While you are correct that the twelfth Ammendment makes some changes, it does not give the choice to the courts. I think we are both talking at cross purposes, though. I am actually saying that the system was [is] broken, not saying that I disagree with or know better than the judges.
Florida's vote was the deciding factor, and Florida's election was flawed [in that the procedures and/or counting was]. The election or the recount should have been redone. It was not handled in a way that inspires confidence in the electoral process. Questions of legitimacy were loud and from many people.
Even granting [which I don't] that Governor Bush and his administration behaved as paragons of electoral impartiality [remember the very fashionable and very partisan secretary of state?] there were problems. Subtract Florida's 25 electoral votes and the vote would have been 246-241 in Bush's favor, throw Florida to Gore and Gore would have won.
If the Florida vote was stolen, then the election was illegal. It would not be the first time an election was stolen, but it should be the last.
I may have misspoken as to my main point, but you were wrong about the applicability of Marbury vs Madison. Your tone, however was inappropriate. As a US Citizen by birth and heritage, I have as much right as you to insist that my government be on the up and up. And if Florida, Ohio or any other state steals the election then I have a right to complain that my vote was devalued.
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354. At 5:54pm on 14 Jun 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
'Last word on drunks. Generally drunks come from drunken families or drunken societies (e.g., Swedem, Russia, Ireland).'
Oh. If you happen to be born (abroad) into a Swedish family, are you doomed to a life of alcoholism? Just wondering.
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McJakome (#377), of course you may complain all you like, but if you don't like my tone there is nothing you can do about that.
We agree that the election in Florida was a mess, and that their handling of it did not inspire confidence in the electoral process in that state. Florida has made some changes since then, in both equipment and procedures. We disagree on the question of the election being "stolen." Both Democrats and Republicans were trying to work the recount process to their advantage. An objective procedure would have recounted "undervotes" statewide by uniform and sensible rules, which was not done. There are other places allegations of impropriety can be made, on both sides, and we just don't know how it would have turned out if all aspects of the election were conducted as fairly and accurately as possible. I believe that anyone who claims to know otherwise is just blowing hot air.
We also seem to disagree on the significance of the action of the Congress in conducting the electoral count. The Congress is without question the final arbiter of the electoral result. The action of the Senate in refusing to join in the challenging of electoral votes is what makes the Florida electoral votes legitimate, regardless of how they were arrived at, so the final result is constitutional and legal. You may argue that if there were acts which should have been judged illegal and were not (or vice-versa), then the result is logically illegal, but this is a mere semantic argument. Readers of this blog know that I do not much like semantic arguments. What counts, ultimately, is that the Congress certified the result. That supersedes all opinions to the contrary of the legitimacy of the result, however well founded.
By the way, I have never defended the Supreme Court's ruling itself, only the right of the Court to make it. I think Justice Souter's opinion (in the minority) was the best one, and I would have preferred that he prevail.
An irony in all this is that the loser, Vice President Gore, sitting as President of the Senate, presided over the counting of the electoral vote. He has moved on. If he can get over it, so should you, I think.
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persecution is in my way
trial and crosses in my way
say the hotter the battle
the sweeter the victory
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpkhYHKRZ44&feature=related
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Ms. Marbles, and the Princess, if you are listening, what is your take
on the Iranian election. We're getting reports like this , and now the
BBC are claiming that their satellite feed from Iran is being jammed.
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Gary and David:
Yes, under the very old rules, if you were defeated in one riding, you could be elected in another, and for a while at least you were entitled to run in more than one riding at a time. Gives a different twist to "vote early, vote often".
I believe that is how Mackenzie King came originally to represent Prince Albert, and it is also how Sir John A. MacDonald briefly represented Victoria (BC, not Ontario), while at the same time winning election in the riding of Marquette in Manitoba. Sir Wilfrid Laurier similarly won election in both Quebec-est and Saskatchewan Provisional district at the same time. I believe that they were not the only ones.
Your typo "seer" was particularly apt with WLMK: he used to go to seances at which he contacted his dead mother through the medium of his dog.
And this guy served as PM for longer, in total, than any other in Canadian history. Not really happy with what that says about us ...
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To all in the USA .Happy Flag Day. Flag Day commemorates the adoption of the Stars and Stripes as the U.S. flag, on June 14, 1777.
232 years- About the same number as there are remaining residents left over on the Pequot Tribal Nation lands.
United States of America
"The concept of aboriginal title was first promulgated in the United States Supreme Court decision of Johnson v. McIntosh (1823). This decision changed the existing legal norm that the right of discovery by a European nation-state secured an exclusive right to treat with the Indigenous Peoples. The decision, authored by Chief Justice Marshall (see also Cherokee Nation v. Georgia (1831) and Worcester v. Georgia (1832)) established the notion that legal title could only rest with the discoverer and that the Indian Nations has a right of use and occupance as an encumbrance on the discovering nation-state legal title". wiki
.
Lone Watie:[ The Outlaw Josey Wales]-- I'm an Indian, all right; but here in the nation they call us the "civilized tribe". They call us "civilized" because we're easy to sneak up on. White men have been sneaking up on us for years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpkGvk1rQBI
Enjoy.
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376. Guns, and Happy, and Pinko
Yes. I am not at all against resolving longstanding injustices with respect to our first nations. On the contrary.
My issue at Akwesasne is that I believe that the people calling the shots do not represent the will of that community. It seems to me that there are people engaged in very significant criminal enterprises who are using a veneer of "native rights" as a cloak for their activities.
This is contemptible for any number of reasons. In particular, we tend to tar all native communities with the same brush, so the violence and intimidation at Akwesasne and Kanawake (there are several spellings for this name) and, to a lesser extent Caledonia, tends to undermine the credibility of, and public empathy for, other, completely unrelated, aboriginal communities where there is genuine need to address outstanding issues of social justice.
Others may argue with this, but, as a rough first cut approximation, in my observation anytime you see at a native people's demonstration a particular flag of a certain society that attracts and incites young aborignal men to violence, if you think of it as being roughly equivalent to the influence of a well known group of criminals with a marked liking for motorcycles built in Milwaukee and a large share of the cocaine trade in North America, you will have the flavour of it. That flag and violent criminal activity seem to go hand in hand, and rarely does it have anything to do with genuine historical injustices in respect of aboriginal peoples.
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This one is dedicated to all informer and
This one is dedicated to all newsmonger
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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Poor Man Style
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io38BAaELCc&feature=related
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316 guns
318 allmymarbles
326 saintDominick
Production of the specific enzyme for adult milk digestion is a relatively recent (c.8,000 years ago) genetic mutation originating in Northern Europeans.
Re: alcoholism: there is a known genetic link within families of alcoholics, so theoretically it would at least be possible for Native Americans to show a similar genetic tendency. However, in any large population, there should be a range of responses to any new factor such as alcohol. I'm not aware of any formal studies on such a problem, esp. since genetic research has taken off in the last 20 years. But, on a genetic scale, the time since 1st contact with Europeans is merely a blip, so such a hypothetical tendency would not have had enough time to mitigate throughout the population.
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381, guns.
"Marbles, and the Princess, if you are listening, what is your take on the Iranian election."
I put out word today that I want to know what is happening. I have little trust in western media, or Iranian media for that matter, or, come to think of it, anybody's media. The grapevine is where it's at. I am interested to hear what princess has to say, if she can get through. If I hear anything you will be the first to know.
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Kurmdgeoun.
"Do stop with that typical american crap of if I can do it why didn't they.
except in your case you are not even saying Me. get to the real world. your blinkers are stopping you seeing the bigger picture.
Yea we can all get somewhere.
but your pull yourselves up by your boot strap is the typical crap that has led to so many s plight being ignored by those that when it comes down to it were given a better deal.
Major word for the day" Empathy."
So kurmudgeon from what low did you rise.
Are you saying the crack addicted baby has the same start and chances as the rich middle class(yes middle class are more than rich on a global scale) kid from the gated community."
The bootstrap crap is the real world - the only real world in which there is hope.
I was given a better deal - by my parents and grandparents, who cared enough to give me and my siblings that better deal. Our family's 'plight' was ignored - by everyone - except our family.
Nobody owes anybody 'a better deal.' Every one of us owes it to ourselves, It is ours only if we make it happen ourselves. Self respect isn't given to us by others, it is the product of our personal effort and our own achievements. Others can give us respect, and that is important, but self respect we make by ourselves. The rich child has no self-respect unless he or she makes something of themselves - every thinking human knows this, even the rich.
That 'better deal' is made of hard work, honesty, thrift, education, and staying away from those things that consume your substance. Each of these is a personal choice, each person's choice - in some communities they are considered moral choices. No one 'gives' these skills to another, except perhaps parents and caring mentors.
Like our discussion of alcoholism, each of these keys is a matter of deciding each day how to live that day. So it is not a matter of what a person is given, it is a matter of what they are taught, and what they learn on their own.
I have more empathy than my wife has. She is a Head Start coordinator with responsibility to help 130 three- and four-year-olds from extremely low income households prepare to start public school each year. Her staff teaches the basics that three- and four-year-olds are expected to have to start school, and also identify special educational, physical, medical, emotional, and developmental needs of the children. About half have clinically identifiable conditions that result in IEPs - individual education plans, from 10-20 percent are referred to Rainbows United each year for specialized care that Head Start is not prepared to give. For or five children each year are formally diagnosed as mentally retarded - something that was not even considered clinically possible when she started in child care 30 years ago.
More than half of the parents or legally responsible adults (several are not in their biological parents' care), will not take these children for free medical attention to have their hearing, sight, physical or learning development, or even their teeth checked or attended to. Even when they are given vouchers for free taxi service, even when there is no job to conflict, even after the fourth or fifth appointment is made for them and their case manager confirms with the parent that they agree the child needs the help. As I say, I have more empathy than my wife has for this sort of parent.
Where do I come from? As I said, my parents gave me that 'better deal.' All of my great-grandparents were failed homesteaders - yes, on land taken from under the feet of some native Americans just a few years before - but my folks didn't get to keep it, or even sell it. By failed, I mean they barely had that pot to piss in. Only one of my grandparents finished high school - all of them were small town laborers or their wives, a tin smith, a street sweeper, a warehouseman.
My father broke the mold and turned his back on his people by wanting to go to college - most of them laughed at him or marked him a traitor for wanting to leave their class - for 'getting uppety'. The GI bill and WWII made it possible. He never finished a four-year degree, but had the skills to become a senior engineer on the Saturn moon rocket project, and later building nuclear power plants. Of his six children four have college degrees, two master's degrees, and one who has neither is a perennial student at a university, fluent in Latin and Greek (not me).
If you do not understand how a family gives itself 'a better deal' from my story, let me tell you about my wife. The crack addicted baby, like the aborted baby, is the result of it's mother's decisions. That is where it must stop, or start. I don't hear much about involuntary or forceable addiction to crack.
The better deal is not unusual. It is always hard. It almost always takes more than one generation. It is worth the effort, through generation after generation. It is the only way. It is very clear that what you are given will have little lasting value.
As has been said, most native Americans do not live on the reservation - they are out in the broader society, taking advantage of the opportunity that is there. Community is important, culture is essential to identity; trying to live in the 17th century, or in a concentration camp that was the lowest point in all your people's history, is a bit difficult to justify in my opinion.
In America, it is the oppression that is the persistent illusion. Tell them to get out, shed the chains that hold them back. That is the message. I have empathy for those parents who cannot, for whatever reason, care for their kids.
KScurmudgeon
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388. At 03:31am on 15 Jun 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
' The grapevine is where it's at. I am interested to hear what princess has to say, if she can get through. If I hear anything you will be the first to know.'
Yes, yes, Please, please!
Thank you,
KScurmudgeon
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378, squirrel.
"Oh. If you happen to be born (abroad) into a Swedish family, are you doomed to a life of alcoholism? Just wondering."
You are purposely misquoting me. What I said was, "Generally drunks come from drunken families or drunken societies " Please note the word "generally." And as for Sweden - I never saw so many drunks in my life. That is not to say that there aren't light drinkers and nondrinkers in that country. but when there is so much obvious drunkenness, it results in a certain acceptability of the habit, and this acceptability tends to entrench it.
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Ms Marbles-
I too am looking forward to hearing your report about Iran.
There is also an audience awaiting the princess.
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Ms. Marbles, what can you pick out from this BBC posting?
Do any of the landmarks in the video look familiar?
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393, guns.
For some reason my Mac is not letting me see the videos or the pictures. I will try on a Windows computer. It bears mentioning that university students in Iran are activists, unlike here, and much of any protesting features them prominently. The intelligencia would have been in favor of Mousavi, it being a much less conservative and religious group. An 85 per cent turnout is astounding, if it is true.
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For those looking for news from Iran, an interesting blog here.
About Akwasasne -- the place is a tinderbox. Those ladies, whatever you might think about their motives, were beaten up badly by the Canadian border guards (because they wouldn't get out of the car). The current protest that has closed the Cornwall crossing is about a fear that arming the guards will lead to fatalities. The protesters have a point, I think.
Lots of people on those reserves think of themselves as a sovereign state, and regard Canadian and US authority as illegitimate. That's a real political issue. Mix that up with the tobacco, the other smuggling, the casinos, and organized crime, etc. and you've got a whole lot of trouble waiting to happen. Attempting to crack down on "crime" (we say crime, they say "trading") ain't gonna solve anything until the political issues are addressed.
The BBC should do a feature on the place ...
Yours,
Pinko
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Ms. Marbles, try rebooting your Mac - one of your daemons (yes, that's
what we call them) may have died.
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#394. allmymarbles: "For some reason my Mac is not letting me see the videos or the pictures."
I don't think it's your computer that is at fault - I was not aware that this blog could show images, only links. Perhaps others who operate Wintel machines can tell us if their PC shows a photo at #393 and if so, what browser is being used. Macs don't censor or edit images automatically! I've just tried IE and Firefox and see nothing other than text at #393. If there was an unreadable image there would be a little blue box with a question mark in it - there isn't one there.
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Ref 393 gunsandreligion
Thanks for the link. Somebody in Iran may have shut-down the usual reporting channels, but Iranis are certainly finding technological means to get out their message.
Had no problem getting to the link, nor opening the associated links on the page.
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Ms. Marbles and DC, can you view Youtube clips? I found some
here , here , and here.
The BBC web site shows police in motorbikes beating civilians with
some sort of club, but I haven't found it on youtube.
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Ref 395 chronophobe
"About Akwasasne -- the place is a tinderbox."
And the grievances just keep mounting. Grand Chief Tim Thompson has asked to meet with Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) several times. The CBSA has refused to negotiate with the recognized tribal government. Thompson has also tried to arrange a meeting with Public Safety Minister, Peter Van Loan, who is conviently somewhere else all the time.
The CBSA, Ontario Provincial Police (OPP), Surete d'Quebec, New York State Police have a long history of poor behavior when dealing with the people of the Knaien'Kahake Nation. I had an unpleasant encounter with the OPP about a week before the Dudley George killing at Camp Ipperwash, Ontario. The encounter took a definate turn for the worse when I identified myself as being of mixed blood after hearing several slurs directed towards the red people.