An interview with President Obama
So on the eve of the big speech to the Muslim world on Thursday, the White House is plainly serious about outreach - that is the main message to take away from the interview I have just conducted with Barack Obama in the White House library.
They chose to speak to us now because they want to reach the parts of the world the BBC reaches - with a message that is nuanced and thoughtful as you would expect, and is not - as the president himself told me - an end but rather a beginning.
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This is not an apology for the actions of the Bush White House - that the president told me flatly.
Nor is it a speech that is designed only to please the audience - the president will talk about the US Muslim community ("huge and thriving" he called it) and point out misperceptions in the Muslim world's view of the US.
But on human rights, I fear he will disappoint: I asked him straight whether Hosni Mubarak (the Egyptian leader for 28 years!) was an autocrat. Mr Obama told me he was a force for stability and good.
The nicest sight in our afternoon in the White House - Sasha and Malia coming home from school. Jolly laughter as in any happy household - though men with wires in their ears prevented us crossing their path as they skipped down the corridor.
We could do with those fellows chez nous...
PS. You can watch the full interview with President Obama here.
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Comments
Yes my friend
This is not the end
Stop blaming yourself
For things done by someone else
Tomorrow is another day
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SAY THANK YOU TO MR. PRESIDENT. OBAMA HAS RICH MEMORY OF BIAS BROADCASTERS.
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Think he is following the Clinton playbook - its better to be wrong and strong than right and weak.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Suspect the President meant foist, not hoist. A rare slip for a very well spoken man.
Anyhow, that really is interesting. Who else did they choose? Is the entire interview available for viewing?
While the BBC is being used as a conduit for a US foreign policy purpose here, there is a fair compliment implicit in that choice.
Quite a feather in the BBC's cap. Well done.
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Hi, just a tiny thing for the subs. Mubarak has been the ruler of Egypt for a mere 28 years(!). Before that he was Vice-President under the ill-fated Sadat.
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Hosni Mubarak is an elected leader, and the fact that he gets 98 per cent of all the votes just shows how successful and popular he must be. ;-)
It's clear Obama understands the guiding values, and knows not to waste his political capital, but after the Bush years it's uphill all the way. On the Israel question, Obama's holding all the cards isn't he? Obama received huge support in November from Jewish Americans. Netanyahu is disliked by Jewish Americans. He didn't even win in his own elections in Israel: he's the compromise choice. Obama can choose to put any number of options on the table: American loans; American aid; the illegal settlers; right-of-Palestinian-return; an armed sovereign Palestinian state; military supply; trade sanctions, nuclear weapons; the NPT treaty; war crimes; political reform etc Oh, I forgot - there's peace as well. Netanyahu's only card is obstinacy.
For his part, Obama only has to say he'll stop the Iranian nuclear weapons programme. Not very difficult: they don't have a nuclear weapons programme. So the heat is on Netanyahu. And he has already fouled up after flying back to Israel and reneging on the settlers agreement he came to with Obama. Netanyahu is simply confirming what the Palestinians have been saying for years: Israel break their word and can't stick to agreements. Netanyahu forgets he came second in his own election. He should be trying to build some credibility. He's on thin ice like never before: jumping up and down, footstamping, and throwing his weight around is rather foolish.
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Obama will have no success trying to 'encourage' the Islamic world to adopt what he calls the universal rights such as freedom or speech and religion.
If the Western world wasn't so deeply entrenched in politically correct, multicultural thinking we would have identified long ago that such values are simply anathema to mainstream Islamic values, as is clearly mandated by the practise of Shariah law.
Instead Obama is continuing along a path of wilful ignorance, appeasement and unwarranted concessions to those who openly despise our very existence when they think we aren't looking.
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The UN war crimes investigation team arrived in Gaza today. The team had to enter from Egypt after Israel denied them entry visas several times. The 15 member team entered the Gaza Strip through the Rafah crossing. This meant going passed the long queues of aid trucks of basic supplies still waiting to cross into Gaza. A different UN team will be confirming the belligerence other UN visitors and Hamas have found.
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Iran has no nuclear weapons programme? Could you please provide the independent source that confirms this? The United Nations is unsure. Iran won't let UN inspectors or any foreign inspectors see everything they want to see. So, I hope you're right. And, Israel will breathe a huge sigh of relief if Iran isn't trying to develop nukes.
By the way, Netanyahu never agreed to everything Obama asked of him concerning settlements. And, a majority of Israelis polled support military action if threatened by Iranian nukes.
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Congratulations! I am disappointed by President Obama's opinion of Hosni Mubarak, a totalitarian ruler no better than Mohammar Qaddafi, the House of Saud and all the other despots we do business with because they are convenient pawns that help us achieve our geopolitical and economic goals. Stability is the wrong word to describe the situation that has existed in the Middle East and North Africa for decades. Some leaders tolerate the status quo in exchange for bribes, but that is hardly a sign of progress or popular acceptance of their circumstances.
I applaud the President's efforts to find a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but I am afraid that is going to require a lot more than a trip and a few pronouncements. Some of the statements coming from the main players in this conflict are unequivocal and suggest an indefinite continuance of this conflict. There are tools that we could use to influence a solution, but I doubt President Obama or any other president will have the courage of using them...at least not during their first term.
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Kudos to Obama for his conciliatory language and his tougher line on Israel but the whiff of hypocrisy still hangs in the air. There is far less democracy in what America calls moderate Islamic countries (Egypt, Saudi etc) than there is in so-called extremist nations (eg. Iran). He still refuses to engage with the democratically elected Hamas.
In respect of Israel, actions speak louder than words and it is high time the appeasement ended and concrete steps taken to force Israel to comply with international law. Obama is an attorney, he should read the Hague Regulations and the ICJ judgement on Israel's Wall before his next trip to Sderot.
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Justin, does this mean that you get to ride on the plane, now?
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"than there is in so-called extremist nations (eg. Iran). He still refuses to engage with the democratically elected Hamas."
KooKoo you are coocoo Hamas killed off Fatah where are you getting your news? Iran's leader denied the holocaust and is basically a nutjob.
You guys on must really hate the west.
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toughdirtyjoe: "Where are you getting your news? Iran's leader denied the holocaust and is basically a nutjob."
Nutjob or not 17M Iranians voted for him, and many would regard Bush as a worse nutjob. Now tell me, how many people voted for Hosni Mubarak, friend of America? Did you know that in Egypt young women objecting to Mubarak's regime (soon to be passed on to his son Gamal) are sexually molested by plain-clothes agents? Did you know that Egyptian prisoners in the Tora-Tora complex are forced to rape each other by their guards?
Nope, that didn't make the "news" where you are, did it? Because Mubarak is an obedient puppet dictator, a supporter of Israel, a recipient of US aid, he's a moderate. But you did know about Ahmedinajad and the Holocaust, right?
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Indeed, the BBC is auspiciously positioned overseas (global reach and all) to have been chosen for a White House interview on the eve of an important diplomatic tour, but surely the growing profile of the BBC as a major news organization here in America also influenced their decision.
Well done, Mr. Webb. BBC coverage of the US has vastly improved during your tenure in Washington.
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I think you'll find that Hosni Mubarak has been Egypt's leader for 28 years, not 38 as Justin Webb insists. We expect better of the BBC
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re: 14 toughdirtyjoe Hamas killed off Fatah where are you getting your news?
Pssssst, Joe, here's some news. From David Rose, a smart, ferociously independent, and intrepid reporter.
Hamas killed off Fatah indeed. Guess who was footing the bill?
Yours,
Pinko
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What I believe paramount to the president's Cairo visit is that he not try to tender democracy and its attendant principles as an ideology to be endorsed by muslims. It would be hypocritical, too. For is it not extreme islamists who seek to bend the world into becoming, if necessary by force, a polity based on religion?
As for Hosni Mubarek being a tyrant, I would agree in that assessment if he were the "ruler" of America or Great Britain. But he isn't. His power is absolutist but though westerners may disagree with his iron-fisted methods of governance, he has, like Tito of the former Yugoslavia, managed to keep Egypt's competing sectarian and nonsectarian opposition from fracturing the country.
Self-determination should be left up to the all citizens including those in middle eastern countries. America has exported enough "stuff" abroad. It's time for us to trade in ideas not ideals.
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Isn't the biggest source of terrorism Saudi-sponsored Wahhabism? No US administration has adequately dealt with that.
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It is clear that Israel is not taking Obama seriously on the settlements issue, since they proceeded ahead with their plans, despite him telling them flat out to stop.
I would be curious to see what he intends to do to further toughen his stance on this issue. If he lets this slip, he will lose respect and no longer be taken seriously. This not just from the Musilim world but from other nations in general as he will be regarded as a man of words with no actions to back them up.
On a different note, as far as american presidents are concerned, his cultural understanding of Islam and the muslim world is second to none. So in that regard there is hope. He just needs to be more tough on Israel who is in violation of international law. No point in playing the double standards game when it comes to the Israel / Palestine issue. It just does not work anymore.
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Talk is cheap. Only actions count. If Obama is as successful in the Middle East as he was bailing out General Motors and Chrysler, we'll be in a nuclear war with Iran by Christmas...if we're not in one with North Korea first. So far President Obama has shown no leadership since taking office, hardly surprising since he is a beginner in world and national politics.
We hear the usual anti-Israeli claptrap from BBC and many of those who post here, nothing new in that. However, the US supports Israel overwhelmingly against the Arabs and against Europe and that is a fact. If the US had to choose between support of Israel and support of Britain, the UK would be on its own. I'd dump support of the UK even if I wasn't forced to choose.
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Obama is my President. He is well aware of other cultures specially the Muslim one. He is serious about improving the tarnished image of USA in the eyes of the world that had been let loose by Bush,Cheney Associates. Obama is genuine in his approach and concern for the world community. His acumen is sharp and analysis of problems deep and meaningful. However, Americans expect miracles from Obama overnight that are far-fetched and unreal in this world torn by struggle and strife. We can only wish him good health and godspeed in his mission.
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Is that it? Barely seventy seconds with an inaudible interjection. Isn't there a transcript available for those who won't - or cannot - see the entire interview? I'm curious to know to which other media representatives the President granted a similar interview. Maybe those on his home turf could then see something similar on one of the commercial American channels.
#16. WPriesIV: "surely the growing profile of the BBC as a major news organization here in America also influenced their decision."
Where do you see BBC news other than on PBS or BBC America? It doesn't have much effect in the US of A. However, the BBC's World Service (which may be transmitting the interview) has been a leader in overseas broadcasting for more years than I can remember, but I wouldn't have thought it was considered a tool of or for American diplomacy.
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Contrary to one of the first posts, the Islamic world has plenty of democracy. In fact, of course, it was our CIA that had the democratically elected socialists in Iran assassinated (way before any of us were born probably). Dot dot dot 9/11.
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I'm glad to see that Obama is capable of a diplomatic response. What use would it be to tell the world that Mubarak is an autocrat? Or, on the other hand, that the use of religion to brainwash people in a political way has reached epidemic proportions in the Islamic world (as well as in some parts of the USA)? No, he will not say these things. It's up to the media to deal with those problems!
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there are two key issues in the West's relationship with the muslim world -- and they cannot be fudged: one is indeed freedom of religion; the other equality for women. . . . both are core "universal values" for the West and neither of these is acceptable to many if not most muslims!
However, we share one planet and in the real world issues of stablity and the rule of law are crucial too; not to mention economic interests.
This requires the kind of subtlety and intelligence that distinguishes President Obama from his damned predecessor. The Cairo speech will, I hope, demonstrate how he will seek to shape and develop this discussion.
Interestingly, the Pope on his recent visit here to Jordan did not pull any punches at all on the issues of freedom religion and the role of women. Islam just has to catch up with the rest of the civilised world and stop trying to impose its occasionally bizarre rules and ideas on the rest of us.
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Where's the full interview?
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I dont feel comfort when i see the president's response about mubarek,'he was a force for stability and good.'it's rediculous to incourage a leader like him who rulled the country many years from now with out any free and fair election and a man, if he could, wants to rule for another 38 years to come.
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Do you remember when Al Gore went to the world conference on women in Cairo - I believe it was 1994? What a boor.
Obama is polite, engaging, nuanced, unapologetic but eager to listen, hopeful, clear about America's interests, and clear that they include if at all possible good relations with the Muslim world. He wants to get into the details, and he will get into the details with anyone who will go there with him. Subtle but hiding nothing.
And he doesn't have slick Billy's leer.
Why shouldn't confidence project openness? W projected fear and defiance - Cheney still does. But they wielded a very big stick at everyone, battering about aimlessly, tearing things up for everyone, but never hitting the target.
At the moment, nobody quite believes their ears, or trusts the US after recent experiences. Can Obama master and marshal all these details? Can he deliver?
The world's power centers and interests are as fractured as the details of any of these puzzles - Is there a potential self-interest out there that can reach critical mass, on anything? Even on the economy? Is there a critical mass of self interest in the United States on anything, sufficient to get us out of these messes we are in? (Or are they really messes?) Can anyone even lead our Congress onto a path that is not their traditional ruts?
Are our problems and dissatisfactions ripe enough, or rotten enough, to get us to act, or will it just be more of the same this time, too?
The world is watching, full of doubt and scepticism, just like this blog. If it was up to us, nothing would happen. Maybe nothing should.
KScurmudgeon,
chewing on his tongue.
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Dear Mr President Obama,
As a person originally from the Middle East and lived their long enough, and thus I can fully understand how Middle Eastern people think, I found myself obliged to give the most sincere opinion about how to reach out to the Muslim Arabic world, and yes to enhance the image of the USA.
Unfortunately, most of the media in the west give WRONG point of view about how the people in the Middle East think about the USA. The correct opinions of most the people in that part of the world are as follows;
1- As a country and people, the USA ranks the best and in fact is considered the land of freedom, equality and prosperity. Of course this excludes the opinions of the minority Muslim fanatics that hate based on religion, as they dont like anybody.
2- As a government, the USA ranks at the bottom of the list. This because of the American BIASED position towards Israel. This is also because of the American Government BLIND MILITARY support for Israel. The Palestinian people are at the heart of the Middle East, and their BLIGHT is the main cause of concern and issue in the relationship between US and YOU!!
3- Although I am not sure if Democracy can be applied in the Middle East, due to religious inclination of most people, but the USA blind support to Dictators in the Middle East, hugely FRUSTRATES the sincere secular people that are trying to advance freedom and democracy in the Middle East. For example, the victims of colonel Muammar al-Gaddafi of lybia, was VERY DISAPPOINTED, when they saw Tony Blair Kissing the Gaddafi arse, just for giving some wopens, that he would probably used on his people first!!
These are the main points that really stand between US and YOU. We DO NOT hate you, but we are looking for JUSTICE for the Palestinian people, as they have been and still being made homeless suffering for no reason other than being born Palestinian!!
Dear Sir, We have enough of promises and road maps!! It is NOT sufficient to tell us that the USA is not at war with Islam, while we all saw how ISRAEL massacred Gaza people, using AMERICAN WEPONS and technology. We all know that Israel does not produce jet fighters and WHITE PHOSPHORUS!!
It is simple, if you can solve the Middle East Problem between the Palestinian people and Israel fairly as much as you can, and if you can apply the REQUIRED PRESSURE on Israel, I guarantee you that we will LOVE your government, and yes celebrate the 4th of July with you. In short, WE ARE LOOKING FOR AN HONEST AMERICAN BROCKER!!
If you cant do that, please DONT waste our time and yours!!
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"We could do with those fellows (i.e. the Obamas) chez nous..."
Oh, Justin, I think you are in love with O and thus not very much unbiased....
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#22 MarcusAureliusII
"Talk is cheap. Only actions count. If Obama is as successful in the Middle East as he was bailing out General Motors and Chrysler, we'll be in a nuclear war with Iran by Christmas...if we're not in one with North Korea first."
A contradictory statement. You wan't him to do more than talk, but say that if he does America will end up in a nuclear war. So you wan't him to do more than talk, but will moan if he ends up taking military action. One or the other please.
"Talk is cheap"
Stop posting then.
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Re. Mubarek
I suspect deep down Obama is not a fan, but for now at least he is the lesser evil and without him playing ball in the middle east would get a lot harder...
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Of Mubarek, in this interview Obama says something like, He has sustained peace with Israel for many years, which is a very difficult thing to do.
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#33 My own post
No idea why I put an apostrophe in "want". Need more coffee.
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#31 Honestly_Speaking,
Of course all of Americas problems are because they support Israel, it simply has nothing to do with their infidelity as non-Muslims?
If you're from the middle east i'm sure you have often heard the Islamic prophecy about Judgement day coming when the Muslims have slain every last Jew? Perhaps if Obama stands aside whilst the Islamic nations obliterate Israel we can all live as one big happy family?
Failure to properly understand the motivations and goals of the Islamic supremacists across the globe is going to cost us dearly. Obama is speeding that process along nicely.
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ref #9
The reason Israel righly rejects a U.N investigation is the biased South African who is leading it. The U.N has sheilded the terrorists in Gaza and in Lebanon, they have no credibility.
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ref #31
Dear Dishonestly:
By Electing a terrorist group the Palestinians have demonstrated they have no desire for peace.
On the even of Israel's founding, a great gesture would be the Arab nation to openly reject the concept of the Nbaka.
The Arab nations have to think about reperations for 60 years of hostility to Israel.
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#37. Zaraki1 wrote:
Of course all of Americas problems are because they support Israel, it simply has nothing to do with their infidelity as non-Muslims?
If you're from the middle east i'm sure you have often heard the Islamic prophecy about Judgement day coming when the Muslims have slain every last Jew? Perhaps if Obama stands aside whilst the Islamic nations obliterate Israel we can all live as one big happy family?
Please, read carefully next time. No body said that all the problems in the Middle East are because of America support for Israel!! What the people of the Middle East against is BLIND SUPPORT for Israel, especially BLIND MILITARY SUPPORT. Trust me, I am an Atheist and I dont sympathy with Muslim fanatics. In fact, I always considered the Jews to be our closest relatives.
The fact is that the Palestinian issue is mainly POLITICAL one. I understand Israel tries strongly to CONVERT it into religious issue!!
And please again DO NOT bring me that religious crab about infidels. Because Muslim fanatics, just like Jewish fanatics are the MINORITY. Go back and listen what your rabbais say about Arabs!! And yes, dont forget the GREAT ISRAEL map you embrace as your goal to capture the land from Euphrates river to the Nile river.
The Palestinian/Israeli issue is a POLITICAL one. And, before I finish, tell your Government to STOP STEALING MORE LAND!!
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#40 Honestly_Speaking,
I'm not an Israeli, nor am I Jewish. You however, are greatly misinformed. Why don't you try watching some Palestinian television to find out whether it is a religious issue or a political one?
Can you explain to me why the most esteemed Islamic scholars regularly appear on mainstream Arab tv networks and make statements such as these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM0ZD6XfTfg
You want the Israeli government to stop stealing land? Well the Arabs were not the original occupants of Transjordan or North Africa, so should we expect them to end their illegal occupation of these countries? You must have a short memory to forget how an alliance of Arab states tried to wipe Israel off the map (in the name of Islam) in 1967...
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Until treaties have been signed aqnd ratified (as well as treated by all parties as more than mere "ink on a page"), PR stunts are just for public consumption. All sides have been trying behind closed doors for years with no result, and until they go behind closed doors and agree to make hard compromises and decisions, this is all just fluff.
It's easy for "leaders" (of both nations and armed organizations) to make decisions that get even their own people killed. Few have been brave enough to attempt something different, and one was killed by his own military, the other by a religious zealot.
If the U.S. took the same neutral stand that resulted in the (still operational) Sinai overflights to verify the withdrawal of both sides, our diplomacy might actually be respected again. The overflights caused both Israel and Egypt to accept our neutrally good intentions, and gave Jimmy Carter credibility that to this day leads nations around the world to rely on him to observe contested elections in heavily armed and deeply divided countries.
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#38, Thanks for reminding me. The UN investigation team is headed by a white South African with an apartheid background. And he's Jewish! Shouldn't the Palestinians have voiced concern? No. It was Israel. And they haven't just voiced concern: they've rejected him AND they've blocked his entry into Israel.
So soon after Israel rejected the last UN Envoy, Professor Richard Falk. American and Jewish. Denied entry into Israel before he'd even started. Yet no concern from Palestinians, only co-operation.
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Ref 41, Zaraki
Palestinians, Middle Eastern Jews, and a relatively large Christian community coexisted in the Emirate of Transjordan during the Ottoman empire and, later, during the British mandate. In fact, the semitic Palestinians have been in the region for millennia, and have as much right to exist and enjoy the same freedoms and sovereignty as everyone else in that hapless part of the world.
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"Change you can believe in - for a few weeks."
For all of Obama's thoughtful sincerity in this interview and his soaring campaign rhetoric, the new boss is acting an awful lot like the new boss. He just talks and looks differently.
The campaign promises that "Change has come to America" have already turned out to be nothing but platitudes.
Rendition, torture, NAFTA, you name it, the Obama administration seems to be carrying on much of the Bush programme. OK a few admissions here and there, but where is the "change you can believe in"? We expected sweeping change, but all we get is a few nudges and tweaks to largely the same policies.
He gets away with it for a little while because they were not his explicit doing but the more time that goes by with no real change that clearly diverges with the past, the more he becomes complicit and ultimately it will become his fault.
At some point, the people will turn. Tick, tock.
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#44, saintDominick,
They certainly did coexist at that time, but not as citizens with equal rights under the law. Muslims always occupy a privileged position in an Islamic state. Jews and Christians can live in Islamic lands but only with severly restricted rights as described by the concept of the 'Dhimma'. I suggest you read 'Jews and Christians under Islam' by Bat Yeor, you will be disgusted.
Semitic Palestinians have every right to live in that land and that is precisely why there are roughly 1 million Palestinian Arabs with Israeli citizenship, enjoying more freedom than anywhere in the Islamic world.
This will never be reciprocated as long as the Islamic ideology of conquest and subjugation of non-Muslim lands prevails in that 'hapless' part of the world.
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The biggest obstacle to peace in the middle east is a (hopefully small) collection of ignorant, agressive, egotistical, indoctrined, narrow-minded people (pick one or more options, if not all) on both sides of the argument.
Israelis and Palestinians both have a lot to answer for - but only a handful of them.
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Ref 19, Boredwell
"But he isn't. His power is absolutist but though westerners may disagree with his iron-fisted methods of governance, he has, like Tito of the former Yugoslavia, managed to keep Egypt's competing sectarian and nonsectarian opposition from fracturing the country."
Are you sure you are not talking about Saddam Hussein? He also championed secularism, dealt decissively with non-secular advocates, fought the Iranian Islamic zealots, and guaranteed the sovereignty of his country to the point that he audaciously rejected contract bids submitted by Cheney and Rumsfeld on behalf of Halliburton and Bechtel and gave them instead of Russian and French firms. You can't be a greater champion of "stability" than that, and we all know where that took him.
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Ref # 41. Zaraki1
Semites, Palestinians and a small number jews, have lived on the land for centuries. Palestinians are being ejected from their land by people coming in from Russia, Argentina and Romania to escape financial failure in their own country
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I think Hosni Mubarak has been the Egyptian leader for 28 & not 38 years but I guess that still makes him an autocrat especially when he is so keen that his son shall follow him as the former Syrian leader managed
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#49
MAII - You remind me of the film "Team America". You fit right into that stereotype (that's not a good thing).
You do realize that both Palestine and Israel have made a mess of things, not just one of them? Have fun with the blame game though.
Out of curiousity, are you a religous man?
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ref #43
Have the U.N assign someone who has not publicly sided with the Palestinians as the head of this bogus U.N group has. Why is Israel the only country not expected to defend itself.
Why isn't the U.N going into North Korea or Sudan or Cuba with the same vigour.
Because the U.N is fine with human rights violators as long as they are not cacausian or Jewish.
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Ref 50, Richard
I am in full agreement with what you stated, although I believe the number of Ashkenazi Jews that migrated from Argentina to Israel is relatively small compared to those that migrated there from Germany and Poland. I think it is also appropriate to point out that in addition to economic considerations, their diaspora was also influenced by political persecution or a desire to minimize the probability of future persecutions. If I am not mistaken, Ashkenazi means German Jews.
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Oh sainted one;
You remind me of a typical European. That is why I place no value on anything you say and have no respect for you personally. I'm too old and experienced to pretend otherwise. I have no time or patience for the kinds of games people like Obama play. In my world, you analyze a problem, figure out the best solution, and then impliment it as quickly and effectively as possible. In the face of aggression, experience has proven time and again that neither negotiations nor embargos are effective and the longer you wait to end it with force, the more dire the consequences. It's a lesson the entire world was taught by WWII but seems to have forgotten. It's a lesson it will continue to have to learn until it remembers it...that is if it even survives it.
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Islamic values
Multiculturalism
falling on closed ears
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Ref 46, Zaraki
"I suggest you read 'Jews and Christians under Islam' by Bat Yeor, you will be disgusted."
I will, but I feel obliged to point out that I am thoroughly familiar with the history of the Sephardic Jews during the Islamic occupation of the Iberian Peninsula. As you pointed out, they were subservient to the Caliphate, but so was everybody else and the few that enjoyed a relative degree of independence had to pay for it. Nevertheless, many rose to positions of prominence due to their intellect and skills, and enjoyed more freedom than the "concersos" (converted) who remained in Spain after the Muslims and Jews were booted out by Christian monarchs.
While I am sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians, if nothing else because they have been victimized for six decades, I believe both sides are responsible for the inability to find a solution to this horrible conflict.
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#53 MagicKirin wrote:
"Have the U.N assign someone who has not publicly sided with the Palestinians "
Here is a thought: Maybe Israel isn't the "good" side in all of this. Maybe they are both good and bad?
As for NK, well, they can't get in there either because the regieme won't let them, so they have relied on sanctions to weaking them. I don't think there are any sanctions for Israel? (Not 100% sure on this). Regardless, why isn't your government going after NK then, espiecally after you went to Iraq for imaginary WMDs, where as NK actually has them....No doubt you defend the Iraq war.
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#45 You are funny, Obama himself likened it to trying to change course in the Titanic - it's slow going, and with a deeply established, stubborn, vocal (and greedy) opposition. Same root as the Israel-Palestine conflict - greed for power and control using religion as a tool. I think enlightening the people is the only way out - to the point where they can't be 'used' by their religious leaders. But that's where my idea ends...I have only known a few Muslims, and they were open-minded and reasonable persons, but I can only guess that there are those as close-minded and impossible to reason with as some of the many for example Southern Baptists I have known. It is craziness.
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55# MarcusAureliusII
"I'm too old and experienced"
That experience really fails to shine through your posts. All I read is comments from a bitter "old" man that has a huge chip on his shoulder.
"I have no time or patience"
Well patience is a virtue, didn't expect you to have that.
"In my world, you analyze a problem, figure out the best solution, and then impliment it as quickly and effectively as possible."
Unfortunately, your best solution generally inolves killing a lot of innocent people, or just ignoring their rights. YOUR best solution has never been THE best solution. Neither will my solutions ever be the best. The difference is I know and understand that, and mine take into account those that will be affected other than myself. Maybe you lost it as you got old?
"In the face of aggression, experience has proven time and again that neither negotiations nor embargos are effective and the longer you wait to end it with force, the more dire the consequences."
Cos Vietnam turned out so well? Force isn't the silver bullet you always want it to be.
I believe the Cuban missle crisis was "solved" through tough diplomacy? No need for war there.
"It's a lesson the entire world was taught by WWII but seems to have forgotten. It's a lesson it will continue to have to learn until it remembers it...that is if it even survives it.""
I thought the lesson taught by WWII is that war generally ends badly for a lot of young men and the civilians it displaces, not that we should all start a war at the earliest possible moment. I suggest you experience war yourself before you start encouraging it.
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#57 St Dom
"While I am sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians, if nothing else because they have been victimized for six decades, I believe both sides are responsible for the inability to find a solution to this horrible conflict."
Tis the truth. A lot of people on this blog like to blame one or 'nother, but the fact is they are both at fault.
At least we can take comfort in the fact that Obama seems to realize this.
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#50, Richard_SM,
Perhaps those people would be more welcome in the Arab Islamic world (which is over 600 times larger in area than Israel)...Or is there some ideological motivator which has lead the occupants of those lands to hate Jews for over 1400 years? If i'm not mistaken, Jews are persona non grata in the Islamic world and they have forced over a million people to flee persecution to Israel. Why does nobody talk about 'the right of return' for these 2nd or 3rd generation refugees if we want to equate it with the plight of the Palestinians?
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Ref # 53 MagicKirin wrote:"Have the U.N assign someone who has not publicly sided with the Palestinians."
They have. His name is Richard Goldstone. I researched his background for several hours about a month ago and couldn't find any adverse comments. But if you say, you have evidence, then I look forward to seeing it. Shouldn't take you long if you already have it.
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# 52 SaintOne wrote: [addressing Macho Autisticus at #49]
"Out of curiousity, are you a religous man?"
As far as I can see, to quote someone or other, he is a self-made man who worships his creator.
There has been a fair bit of discussion about his true identity - suggestions have ranged from a Dalek to a member of Al Qaeda, bent on blackening the image of the US - he's certainly doing a good job of that.
I would have suggested that he's Dick Cheney except [a] he's far too right wing and [b] he lacks Cheney's charm, grace and courtesy...
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#57 SaintDominick,
You made some fair comments, however i'm surprised you were able to see that the nature of the Caliphate denies equality of rights for non-Muslims but are unable to see how this affects the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
Is it not obvious from the words and deeds of the Palestinians themselves that they do not want peace, they want to subdue the Jewish people (and the Western world) under Shariah law?
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Let us dispel the myths about Arabs and Jews and race and ethnicity and who lived where 40 years ago, centuries ago or a 1,000 years ago. We tend to think of peoples as homogenous entities. But in reality all are mixtures. Take the British Isles, succesive waves of invaders, the first humans, the Celts which we now know was a cultural influx rather than an 'invasion' in terms of numbers). Then the Romans, then the Angles, Saxons, Jutes (which did represent large scale influxes of peoples), Vikings, later Danes, then Normans. Recent DNA studies show that the majority of peoples of the British Isles whether in the Celtic fringe or the mainland of Britain are actually predominantly related - newer 'invasions' added some spice to the genetic soup, but invaders largely did not supplant the original inhabitants they married in and absorbed them. So it would seem with the Middle East. The Jews were not really a group separate from the other peoples, they were certain tribes among other tribes that settled in areas which became identified as Canaan or Judea or Egypt or whatever, then came the Arabs who were just other tribes from nearby areas who established a certain culture absorobing other peoples along the way. But again recent DNA studies shows that all the peoples of the middle east are largely related.
We can not unravel history. The Scots-Irish of NI cannot go back to Britain, and after all where did the Scots of Scotland come from originally -Ireland and all intermarried along the way. Those who identify themselves as Jews or Arabs or Persians or whatever have to learn to live with each other.
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# 55 Macho Autisticus II wrote:
"Oh sainted one;/You remind me of a typical European. That is why I place no value on anything you say and have no respect for you personally."
Macho
You don't remind me of a typical American, since in my experience no such thing exists. Indeed, no American I've met would be thick enough to make a sweeping generalisation about c 300m Americans, or indeed c 700m Europeans.
However, at the risk of making my own sweeping generalisation, I'm glad to say that most Americans I've met have been courteous and fair-minded. So, insofar as there is a 'typical American', I'm glad to say it's certainly not you.
That is why I place no value on anything you say and have no respect for you personally.
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Hi Justin, as excited as you may be about getting some face time with President Obama don't you feel a bit used. After all he refused to deal with any foreign media even the BBC during his campaign for office. Now he needs a bit of world prestige you come running. I do feel you are all a little bit in awe of the guy, which may make for nice fluffy stories but is it objective and are you trying your hardest? Look at the Telegraph over in the UK, they are pretty much going to bring down a government with their journalistic zeal. The very best polticians like President Obama have thick skins and can roll with the punches, they thrive on it so maybe you need to push a little harder.
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Mr President, you certainly have an absolute command of the Geo Politics. The US is responsible for many wrongs and while you do not need to take responsibility for other peoples actions, it is of benefit if you allude to that, example
1. The Iranian coup in 1949 masterminded by CIA and imposition of an Autocratic ruler
2. Talk of regime change
3. Iran has never attacked anybody (Israel has and continues occupation)
4. The building of settlements must be unrolled
5. US needs to be even handed and an honest broker not take sides
By the way Iran is probably the only country in the Midle east which has open and transparent elections
Also the regime of torture which existed under your predecessor and some say it still continues must be stopped and those responsible must surely face due process.
Thanks, we trust you to solve these enormous challenges, please don't let us down (we have enough problems with our MP'S)
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# 52 SaintOne wrote [to Macho Autisticus II]
"MAII - You remind me of the film "Team America". You fit right into that stereotype (that's not a good thing)."
Saint, while I assume you were comparing him to Team America itself - 'we had to destroy Paris in order to save it' - I'd see him more as a Kim Jong-Il character.
Alone in his underseas lair, plotting the destruction of all foreigners, especially those from Yerp, and especially especially those from the UK, [not to mention all the Americans to his left - c 95% or so], and singing his sad little song to himself:
'Seems rike no one takes me ser-i-rous-ryyyyyyy
That's why I'm ronery
A rittle ronery
Poor rittle meeeee.....'
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#66 AAPrescott,
---"Those who identify themselves as Jews or Arabs or Persians or whatever have to learn to live with each other."---
A noble sentiment, but you have mistakenly simplified the issue to that of race. Allow me to be politically incorrect and put it to you that the problem is actually Islam. Islam is not a race, it is an ideology and a very powerful one which promotes division, sows hatred and seeks political domination by violence if necessary.
What is happening in Israel/Palestine is simply another manisfestation of the global Jihadist effort to bring about this political domination. Right now the West is totally unable to form an adequate resistance to this ideology because most people will not even identify it for fear of being branded racists or islamophobes.
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#70
Now you see, the changing of the worrd is inevitabre!
#71
It's not so much Islam, but the clerics that interprut it in a way that seeds violence. Similarly to christianity and the crusades.
Bhuddists I think hold the moral highground on religous violence.
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# 68 DavidGins wrote:
"Hi Justin, as excited as you may be about getting some face time with President Obama don't you feel a bit used. After all he refused to deal with any foreign media even the BBC during his campaign for office. Now he needs a bit of world prestige you come running."
Is it really the case that 'he refused to deal with any foreign media even the BBC during his campaign'? I genuinely don't know. So even when he went around Europe he refused to deal with any European media? [Presumably they received briefing from his spokespersons, even if they didn't get actual 'face time' with the candidate.]
If it is true, I'm not sure it's all that surprising. You suggest the Beeb is being 'used'. Pols use the media and the media use pols. When a politician is campaigning, his primary audience is the electorate. Especially in a US POTUS election, media access is very tightly controlled - since even the slightest 'misstatement' can have a huge effect. It is therefore perhaps hardly surprising that a candidate will concentrate on domestic media.
You also suggest Obama is using the Beeb to gain 'prestige'. I would suggest it's more that, as someone else here suggested, the BBC World Service has a wide reach throughout the world - possibly more than the US media.
And when you say the Beeb came running, I'm not sure what you think they should have done. Say 'No, Mr President, you wouldn't give us an interview during the campaign, so we won't give you one now'?
As to whether, as you suggest, JW should have given Obama a harder time in the interview - I can't comment, as I haven't actually seen the interview.
I'm not entirely sure that I'd use the Daily Telegraph as a model of journalistic objectivity though....
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#72 SaintOne,
You have casually compared 1400 years of unrelenting Islamic warfare, conquest and subjugation to a short series of (undeniabley brutal) Christian military campaigns that ended 700 years ago. This is precisely indicative of the lazy, dismissive and unassuming attitudes of the Western mind.
When faced with an openly hostile and aggressive threat from a strongly united group of Islamic zealots (who are making significant advances into the Western world) you ignore their motivations and bring up the crusades instead. Brilliant.
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These posts are a joke. What does he think a "a typical European" is: an Icelandic fisherman; a Swiss yodeler; a Latino lover? It's laughable.
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#74
You left out the holocaust silly. The Spanish inquisition. The rifts between protestants and catholics in Ireland and Scotland (which has led to some brutal killings). The Salem witch trials.
I could go on and mention more but I'm just "lazy". But yea Islam is the only religion that has been at unrelenting war with everyone else.
/sarc.
"This is precisely indicative of the lazy, dismissive and unassuming attitudes of the Western mind.
When faced with an openly hostile and aggressive threat from a strongly united group of Islamic zealots (who are making significant advances into the Western world) you ignore their motivations and bring up the crusades instead. Brilliant. "
Well, to mis-quote you, this is precisely indicative of the lazy, narrow-minded and paranoid attitudes that eventually ends up ruining this world.
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Justin, I thought that your interview exposed a bad dose of naivety and Obama wishful thinking regarding the Muslim world and its
'willingness' to accept the principles of "Democracy, rule of law, freedom of speech, freedom of religion."
Muslims countries don't practise democracy. They resist and reject it; the only law they really want is Shariah. They don't practise freedom of speech or freedom of religion, often treat their women as lesser beings, and these things are not going to change after some foolish, pandering, conciliatory speech made by Barack Obama. If the speech were to be reflective of the nonsense he told the Turkish parliament, we can look forward to a real doosey of a speech!
Muslim demonstrators in London have held up signs saying: 'To hell with freedom', 'To hell with democracy', 'Decapitate enemies of Allah'. They reflected the intolerant, dictatorial, fascist mentality of Islam that is evident not only in Britain, but also in Denmark, France, Germany, and anywhere else Muslims have settled in large numbers.
For Obama and the Western world to now fall over itself trying to placate Islam is worse than pathetic, downright cowardly, and will be interpreted by the Muslim world as such. How it must gloat over Western world lack of spine! In effect,'We attack you, kill your citizens, and you regret your misjudgment in retaliating to provocation from us!'
In case you've forgotten, Muslims attacked the World Trade Centre, bombed the London underground killing 52 people, and with bombs killed more than 200 Spaniards on a train in Madrid.
The West responded to Muslim terrorist attacks on it, and now you suggest that possibly Obama might apologize for George Bush administration poor judgment - when responding to Muslim attacks! What of the poor judgment from the Muslim world that led to the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan?
Supposedly some nice words in a speech by this silly president will change things. Meanwhile in madrass all over the Western world, the U.S., U.K., Western Europe, etc, Muslims create extremists who, with their teachers, have not the slightest intention of embracing what Obama
'believes' "to be universal principles that they can embrace and affirm as part of their national identity".
Regardless of what he 'believes' to be "universal principles", he is wrong and needs to wake up.
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Justin:
Thank you for posting the full interview. A very interesting interview it was, too.
The cleverness of the Obama administration provides such a stark contrast with its predecessors that it is sometimes breathtaking. There are dozens of little points in this interview where the responses are so gently nuanced.
Consider - this interview will be available in Iran. What better way to undermine the present Iranian government than to show the US as being thoughtful and open-minded, as not interested in issuing ultimata or making threats. If Obama wanted to help the Iranian opposition, he could hardly have done better. And, conveniently, it was also substantively the right thing to do. Oh yeah, maybe that wasn't a coincidence ...
There were dozens of points in this interview just like that.
At last, sanity and reason have returned to American government. Not before time, either.
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#77
"Muslims countries don't practise democracy. They resist and reject it; the only law they really want is Shariah."
Com'on people, enough with the sweeping generalisations please.
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#59 - I see your logic, but it took former presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton and Bush, Jr. very little time to change course. (I don't remember the presidents before).
So what's new this time? Why has the Titanic become un-navigable? The Pres is *meant* to be the most powerful man on Earth.
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MagicKirin
Why isn't the U.N going into North Korea or Sudan or Cuba with the same vigour?
Are those countries illegally expanding their borders?
Hasn't the ICC issued an arrest warrant for Sudanese President Bashir?
The international community would just like to see an end to the occupation of East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Golan Heights and an end to the siege of 1.4 million people in Gaza.
Israel can build within Israel's legal borders. Israel provides grants and loan guarantees for those wishing to build in the West Bank.
I am part of that community and I think President Obama is also.
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#76,
The holocaust?? Wow...
The Spanish Inquisition - Fair point, but which one of Jesus' teachings were used to advance that agenda again? Why has that ideology long since been eradicated and repudiated from Christian thought, whilst the Islamists supremacist agenda has never ceased to advance itself?
As for the rifts between Protestants and Catholics in Ireland, you're obviously unaware that Sinn Fein/IRA are a Marxist group who don't refer to Christian texts to justify their actions. Members of the clergy on both sides have consistently comdemned violence and sought peace.
Anyway in terms of numbers and scope you've still got a long way to go if you insist on playing a game of moral equivalence regarding the global Jihad.
Why is it that when groups of Muslims constantly refer to their own religious scriptures to incite hatred and violence (invoking the example of their prophet Mohammed) it's everybody elses fault? Do you hate your own heritage so much that you would happily see it replaced with a system of law which would deny you the most basic human rights? Nevermind...i'm just being paranoid, those planes didn't really crash into the two towers did they?
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#80
Perhaps the previous president navigated the titanic into a whirlpool and it's proving difficult to get out of the mess?
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saw Justin on the BBC news this mo.
Not a bad interview there Justin.
The egypt mubarak thing though?
do you really expect him to be as stupid as the last lot and start slagging him off before he meets him.
then I see you like to concentrate on them human rights abuses in egypt.
Never once have you questioned how dangerous the american cops can be.
80,000 in the US locked up for smoking . Many many strangely enough are the same that would have and did protest against america's mistakes.
Not "political decent" that they were locked up for.......
American cops beating people in jails and allowing rape. Why is it you have never once questioned on your blog the problems faced in the states with the same eye you look at the others.
Good question about human rights in the mideast. Now why don't you ask the same about the USA.
Richard SM
sterling work. what about that ban on the catastrophe.
holocaust denial is a crime shouldn't Nakba denial also be a crime. How about an out an out ban on it being commemorated. Gotta love that sincere freedom country after you have sworn your oath to Judaism and Israel.
(strange spell check says holocaust but does not recognise Nekba)
Honestly. It is good to see some on this site.
JinD you forgot legion in you list.
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Should the Obama Adminstration be making changes to the American Constitution to make sure they never get another Bush with so much power? Perhaps Obama has something planned towards the end of his second term.
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#78,
The Iranians (and the Muslim world in general) will only see Obamas soft, reconciliatory tone as a sign of Western weakness.
They will use this opportunity to demand concessions and apologies for a whole host of offences, some real, but most imaginary. There will be absolutely no reciprocation from these people, just further agressive posturing and contempt for Western values.
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Richard_SM (#85) "Should the Obama Adminstration be making changes to the American Constitution ... "
The Executive Branch of the US government has no power to change the Constitution.
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#86
Wait until they have elected/re-elected a president, you might be surprised.
#82 Zaraki1
"The holocaust?? Wow..."
Hitler was a christian (at least politically). Regardless, Jewish people were murdered because of their religion, and Muslims had nothing to do with it.
"The Spanish Inquisition - Fair point, but which one of Jesus' teachings were used to advance that agenda again? Why has that ideology long since been eradicated and repudiated from Christian thought, whilst the Islamists supremacist agenda has never ceased to advance itself?
As for the rifts between Protestants and Catholics in Ireland, you're obviously unaware that Sinn Fein/IRA are a Marxist group who don't refer to Christian texts to justify their actions. Members of the clergy on both sides have consistently comdemned violence and sought peace."
I know many muslims, and they seem to interprut the Quran without it envoking them to go and kill infidels, cut the hands from thiefs, force women inside etc etc
"Anyway in terms of numbers and scope you've still got a long way to go if you insist on playing a game of moral equivalence regarding the global Jihad."
How many times does it take for it to get through to you that just because Osama Bin Laden declares a Jihad on the western world does not mean every single Muslim in the world is supporing him? No doubt he has followers, and one would be too many, but your characterising the entire Islamic faith as some huge war machine hell bent on conquering the world. At worst, it is a minority.
"Do you hate your own heritage so much that you would happily see it replaced with a system of law which would deny you the most basic human rights?"
Of course not, I detest Sharia law, and I'm proud of my country and the strides we took in human rights and democracy. But you simplify things far too much by assuming that every muslim in the world wants that.
"Nevermind...i'm just being paranoid, those planes didn't really crash into the two towers did they?"
O, they did, but fortunately not every Muslim in the world was behind it, nor were they glad it happened. They also bombed our underground trasnport system, but again not every muslim wanted that in the slightest.
I admit the extremist Islamic cult that has appeared in the middle east is scary and needs to be stopped, but they are in the minority.
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#81 Irish_Mark
"Are those countries illegally expanding their borders?"
Actually that land was always intended for Jewish settlement by the league of Nations in its Mandate for Palestine. That was one among many mandates created after World War I, several of which led to the creation of Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq -- that is, three of the now-22 members of the Arab League.
More info here: [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
"Hasn't the ICC issued an arrest warrant for Sudanese President Bashir?"
Much to the scorn and derision of the Arab League, who put it down to the Wests hatred of the Islamic world...whilst Bashir was receiving a heroic reception from his fellow Muslim Arab brothers. How strange that they would protect a man with such obvious ties to an actual premeditated, indiscriminate genocide whilst screaming in outrage over the recent military conflict in Gaza (which resulted in the deaths of approximately 399,000 fewer people than in Sudan).
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Ref 79 SaintOne
Am I to assume you are an apologist for aggressive Islam? What Zaracki1 has stated about Islam's 1400 years of conquest and unrelenting war since, is fact. In the minds of Muslim leaders they are still at war with the non-Muslim world. Hence their financing of madrass and mosques all over the Western world. Ghaddaffi of Libya has stated that at the rate of Moslem expansion in Europe will take it over without a fight. He's not wrong, and exposes the mindset that is little different to that which existed in 711 AD when the Muslims invaded Spain from Morocco.
Regardless of your wishful thinking, the Muslim world is not about to change and if they have their way will transform our way of life to reflect the feudalistic backwardness that exists in most Muslim countries.
Like the communist leaders of the Soviet Union before its collapse, the approach they respect is strength and the willingness to retaliate against aggression, not pitiful words of apology for our existence and reconciliation regardless of how aggressive and unreasonable their posture. They will regard it as a sign of weakness, and rightly so.
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#88,
---"Hitler was a christian (at least politically). Regardless, Jewish people were murdered because of their religion, and Muslims had nothing to do with it."---
Hitler was by no means a Christian. He was an occultist who borrowed superstitions from various places (e.g. the Swastika). Hitler lamented the fact that Germany was a 'meek' Christian country rather then a savage warrior race like the Muslims, whom he oppenly admired for their hatred of Jews and passion for fighting. Further to the contrary of your post, Muslims had plenty to do with the holocaust...please learn something about The Grand Mufti, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini and his close friendship with Hitler during WWII.
---"I know many muslims, and they seem to interprut the Quran without it envoking them to go and kill infidels, cut the hands from thiefs, force women inside etc etc"---
I know many such Muslims too and they do this by simply ignoring massive chunks of Islamic scripture, but the commands remain for the less faint hearted Muslims to act upon.
I'm not saying that all Muslims support Jihad and Shariah, nor am I suggesting that all Muslims are terrorists because this is plainly not the case. What I am saying is that there are very strong elements within Islamic scriptures and tradition which mandate continued warfare and subjugation of non-Muslims and the denial of human rights as we know them. We in the West need to be open and honest about these issues if we are ever going to effectively confront them.
---"I admit the extremist Islamic cult that has appeared in the middle east is scary and needs to be stopped, but they are in the minority."---
This is not something that has just sprouted up in recent years but has always been a recurring element in Islamic societies, they are not as small a minority as you think.
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Ref 88 SaintOne
One harsh reality is that regardless of whether "not every Muslim in the world was behind it" i.e. the attack on the WTC, very few had the guts or were willing to condemn the attack.
If you were to read 'Heart of a soldier' by James Stewart you would discover that even before 9/11, in most mosques round New York city there existed among most worshippers a highly antagonistic attitude toward the U.S. No doubt most of those individuals were delighted over the collapse of the WTC and lives lost.
Stop kidding yourself, you have enemies in your midst and your president panders to them.
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#90
I dont apologize for anyone but myself. I am disgusted by any form of aggression. I sympathize with muslims that get lobbed into the stereotype of extremist just because a people like you get paranoid over someone that believes in Allah and not God.
To make clear for the umpteenth time: I hope extremists of any religion are removed from society and the world in general. That includes islamic extremists that like to crash planes into buildings. I also hope that those people who link this minority group of people with a larger group just because they share the same religion, even though they excerise their faith in a peaceful manner, are removed too.
My best friend is a muslim, and he is perhaps the most peaceful person I have ever met. Would you group him into the extremist sect of Islam because he prays to Allah and fasts during Ramadan? Because he is from Pakistan and goes their often? Because he family is from Pakistan?
Give me a break.
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To robloop #90, Zaracki1 #91
1) What would you have included in the speech to make it less "silly" and less "naive" and more full of "strength"?
2) You are so ready to interpret the world with simplified sweeping generalisations. Why is it that base instincts and mentality only seem to apply to large groups of people you disagree with or don't know?
3) How much of the Arab, Muslim population are you claiming to understand with your naive generalisations, that enables you to act as a spokesman for all muslims and know how the whole "muslim world" will interpret and feel things?
4) What personal qualities prevent you from generalising homegrown extremist Americans (who act on voices from god) to mainstream American values?
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"Muslims had plenty to do with the holocaust...please learn something about The Grand Mufti, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini and his close friendship with Hitler during WWII. "
And many of the German guards & the SS were christian. Deal with it.
"I'm not saying that all Muslims support Jihad and Shariah, nor am I suggesting that all Muslims are terrorists because this is plainly not the case. What I am saying is that there are very strong elements within Islamic scriptures and tradition which mandate continued warfare and subjugation of non-Muslims and the denial of human rights as we know them. We in the West need to be open and honest about these issues if we are ever going to effectively confront them."
I'm glad we can agree on that. But the fact of the matter is, rather than going to war and starting the whole "my stick is bigger than yours" arguement, it's best for Obama to appeal to the moderate muslims that do exist in the middle east. He can only really appeal by diplomacy and not coming across heavy handed.
Also, the bible can be argued to incite violence too. I have not read the Quran so I cannot be sure on the similarities, but an "eye for an eye" sounds remarkably like Sharia law. Many Christians choose to ignore bits of the bible too.
#92
He is not my president and there are not terrorsits in my midst.
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#93,
My best friend is also a Muslim and I do not see him in the same light as I do the proponents of fundamental Islam.
As I said before, peacful Muslims have a tendency to quietly ignore massive chunks of their scripture and just go about their business in peace. This is fine and dandy with me, however the commands to hate non-believers and wage eternal warfare against them remain rooted within the Islamic scriptures whether Muslims follow them through or not. You need to be more realistic about these issues and recognise their is doctrinal problem within Islam which isn't just going to go away because you happen to know some Muslims who haven't been indoctrinated.
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#94 Marko,
Your post is merely an attempt to deflect attention from the theological aspects of Islam have been used to incite religious warfare for 1400 years. Let me make this clear to you: I oppose Islam not Muslims ok?
I am glad you asked about Obamas speech though. Here is the speech that SHOULD be delivered in Cairo, but never will be:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/06/the_speech_obama_should_give_i.html
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#95,
If you have not even read the Quran then you are hardly in a position to comment on Islamic Jurisprudence.
Also 'Eye for an Eye' is in the Old Testament...it was replaced by Jesus' teaching to 'Turn the other cheek', 'love and pray for those who hate you and spitefully abuse you' etc. That is pretty basic stuff, anyway you will see the two are not comparable when you read the Quran.
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93, SaintOne, hopefully all of the world's religions will moderate and
become more tolerant. A Jewish or Christian fundamentalist is no better
than a Muslim one.
So, I hope for peace. Perhaps, in the coming century, more people will
actually look up and listen to what God is trying to tell us instead of
trying to kill off everybody who isn't exactly like them.
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Israel has very few options. One by one they've closed off their choices. Netanyahu is deluding himself and his colleagues. A two state solution is on the table. Palestine will become sovereign state. Access to it's own offshore gas fields with the huge aid now promised. It has the right to defend itself, so should have it's own military, air force and navy. Palestine should be running it's own affairs completely, with it's own elections and it's people developing their own economy.
If Netanyahu is going to be belligerent and hold out for a one-state solution, then Obama will call his bluff. The outer borders of a new combined state will be confirmed. The IDF dismantled. Large UN Peacekeeping force will replace them. Exiled Palestinians and their descendants return. National elections held. A new constitution created. Political equality. Social equality. Economic equality. Any leaders involved in war crimes should face the ICC. A new combined state of Palestine/Israel is born. New name. New flag.
USA is Israel's only supporter, and already Netanyahu is snubbing Obama! America doesn't want anymore 9-11's, and it's clear the ongoing conflict is THE major source of grievance. Israel has ignored UN resolutions over and over again. Europe has had enough of Israel, and will soon be recognising Hezbollah as a first step. Calls are being made to recognise Hamas. Jewish academics in Britain and USA have been openly criticising the Israeli Government for years. The Rabbis regularly speak out against Israel's policies. Netanyahu needs to work with Obama, not against him. If he refuses, the true Israeli people, not the recent migrants, will not tolerate anymore conflict. They want peace. Ms Livni can soon takeover from Netanyahu if necessary - she's more of a realist and can see the writing on the wall. She did win this year's election. It's time for the Israeli Government to finally face up to it's responsiblities. No more games.
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to Zaraki1,
Your vehement attack on Islam is biased. Trust me as an Atheist for over 14 years. Islam is no more evil than Christianity or Judaism. I know that from long time research of religion. If dont know, please read your so-called Christian history.
And your generalisation has depleted your credibility!! You can NOT just say the whole Muslim world, Arabs, etc. You are painting every person with the same brush!!!!!
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I see MagicKirin has disappeared when asked to back up the false claims, #63. These people only keep posting this nonsense because they belong to the past. Israel refuses to allow jewish UN envoy into the country. It's so absurd.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Justin
I again saw on CNN your interview of Obama. "Many of us think an apology is due for the Bush years," you said - or pretty close.
And I say, "What a nauseating load of tripe!"
Over what should Obama apologize for the Bush years? For retaliating to Moslem aggression in East Africa, the Middle East, the Phillipines, and then the U.S. itself? For attacking those who intended more attacks, destruction and death?
Evidently you reflect the attitude of your British government that incessantly panders to Moslem threats and aggression. It no longer even permits teaching about the haulocast because Moslems choose not to believe it happened and it offends them - even though true! That amounts to cowardice, lack of conviction, and lack of belief in free speech and democratic principles.
_Marko. Ref 94
I have no intention of spending time to reply to your naive and silly questions,and sweeping generalizions about what I think. I've taken the time to study and evidently you have not.
As to Obama, the U.S. has in its midst as leader, a budding Neville Chamberlain.
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I don't recall Obama saying the Egyptian leader was a force for good & stability. He said he was an ally & he had not entered into aggression with Israel - it was a careful response.
Obama needs to grab Israel by the short and curlies this time round and squeeze hard. Read My Lips: No settlements. Read My Lips: A 2-State Solution. Read My Lips: No More Financial Aid for your weapons until you put this into action.
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#101,
Your inability to comprehend simple written English is of no conern to me. I'm not going to endlessly repeat myself, ignore the facts and believe what you like.
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When planning the future, it's often suggested a good strategy is to visualise the desirable future solution and work back to where you are. With that in mind:
How should Israel/Palestine look in ten years time? What would a new visitor notice? Could it provide a model for other troubled regions? Would it have open borders? Would it be a tourist destination? What would a visit to Jerusalem be like?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
in ref. to 85:
"Should the Obama Administration be making changes to the American Constitution to make sure they never get another Bush with so much power? Perhaps Obama has something planned towards the end of his second term."
The above statement is truly terrifying in its suggested use of Executive power, but I will use this opportunity to give a civics lesson.
Only Congress has the power to amend the Constitution, and all amendments to the US Constitution must be ratified by the states.
The Two ways Amendments are proposed:
2/3 of both houses of Congress vote to propose an amendment.
2/3 of state legislatures ask Congress to call a National Convention.
The Two ways Amendments are ratified:
3/4 of state legislatures vote to approve the amendment.
3/4 of state Ratifying Conventions vote to approve the amendment.
The intricacy of the process has resulted in only 27 Amendments making it through both the proposal and ratification phases.
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Post 107 was for Robloop and Zarati
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ref #102
MagicKirin has a full time job. So I do not monitor the web for your latest misstatement.
Here is a source http://www.yourish.com/2009/04/15/7176
Israel objection is to the U.N bias which is evident by the one sided discrimination against Israel while terrorists are celebrated
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105:
Good Bush Sr. reference.
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Ref 108. robloop
So come on robloop a 'one-state' solution or a 'two-state' solution. Which??
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I have read the comments with interests, and I notice a great many refuse to acknowledge that the dynamics of the situation changes as soon as the players/actors in this epic drama changes.
Whether real or imagined, they fight the demons of the past while ignoring or worse .. diminishing the historic initiatives before us to bring peace to the middle east, the last of which was the camp david accord.
What I see in President Obama is a sincere effort to bring some sense of rationality to the region that has been a mess for decades. And he has begun engagement in his first year itself. Most US presidents since reagan have ignored it till their final year in office.
Peace in the Middle East is a good thing. Blessed are those who seek it.
I hope you succeed in your endeavours, Mr. President.
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Dear ladies/gentlemen,
Hopefully, the recent statements by Pres.Obama, Sec.of State Clinton & others are an indication that the US will not only belatedly persist in insisting that Israel freeze its illigal settlement activities on what is left of Palestinian lands on the West Bank, but join the world community in condemning these settlements and demanding their dismantlement and removal. Apart from Israel, no other nation in the world imposes or tolerates a policy of planting, supporting and expanding militerized colonial settlemnts on the territory of another nation and its people. This is not to say that all of the current Israeli settlers on the West Bank should necessarily be forced to leave. Rather, and even as Israel's networks of organized settlements are disbanded - individual settlers should be afforded the same opportunities to become citizens of a new Palestinian State as were given to Palestinians who were not displaced from the territory of Israel in the wake of its founding.
Furthermore, given the reality that hard-pressed American taxpayers continue to subsidize the proliferation and growth of Israeli settlements to the tune of some $3-5 Billion p/year in economic and military aid, the US is uniquely positioned to convince the Israelis that their garrison-settlements must be consigned to the proverbial dustbin of history if there is to be any realistic hope for an equitable and lasting peace in the Middle East. Otherwise, Israel should be prepared to bear all of the economic, political and military costs and consequences of its policies and myths on its own.
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MagicKirin
In #38 MagicKirin wrote: "The reason Israel righly rejects a U.N investigation is the biased South African who is leading it," who MagicKirin says has,"publicly sided with the Palestinians."
MagicKirin was asked to supply evidence to support this claim the UN investiagator was biased and has publcly sided with the Palestinians.
So in #111 MagicKirin provided a link to a jewish blog page in New Jersey (don't laugh) which provides guidance on dealing with anti-Israel media bias. And here are the sentences which has led MagicKirin to claim the UN Team Leader is biased, which doesn't even have a source (please don't laugh everybody):
"The investigation is headed by Richard Goldstone, former chief prosecutor for war crimes in Yugoslavia and Rwanda. Goldstone was appointed by the UNs Human Rights Council this month." and ...its not clear whether the head of the investigation, Richard Goldstone has been briefed."
Is that it? Where's the evidence of bias? Where's the evidence he has publicly sided with Palestinians?
It's so absurd. No wonder you are so confused and deluded MagicKirin, and others like you. Further evidence the wild claims that come from the Israel lobby are pure nonsense when followed up. The sad thing is, I think they really believe it.
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#113 Richard_SM;
The original Mandate for Palestine was for a two state solution. The Jews danced with joy at the thought that they might get a thin sliver of desert to build a homeland after the holocaust, whereas the Muslim Arabs baulked at the notion of having an infidel state in their midst and immediately set about trying to annilihate it.
The Israelis have always been willing to accept a Palestinian state because many Jews falsely believe it will bring an end to the Jihad.
However the Palestinians themselves either oppose the two state solution outright whilst continuing the mission of wiping out Israel by genocide, (i.e. Hamas).
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors." Hamas Charter
The 'moderate' Palestinians however rely on a different tactic; paying lip service to the wilfully ignorant Western nations, projecting an image as 'men of peace' when in fact they hold the same goals as Hamas, they're just willing to be more patient (i.e Fatah):
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/025276.php
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ref #116
You claimed you Googled bias I gave you a link.
The point is if you want an investigation you can't have a body doing who is unaceptible to one side.
Have Tony Blair or Bill Clinton lead the investigation, but not a U.N body.
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Altogether Now sing along to this song
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
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ref #115
Bonder no other nation would be as restrained as Israel has been from missles attacks from Lebanon and Gaza.
The Palestinian repaid the land they were given by missle attacks.
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Ref 117. Zaraki1
You're evading the issue. Look to the future for a change. One state or two state. Which???
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I would just like to say how much i enjoy reading your blogs, as an American Studies student at uni, i find your blogs very helpful in gaining a real insight in to the real America. I will be studing in New York for a year from August and so will be experiencing the real America for myself!
Keep up the good work!
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8. Zaraki1 wrote:
Obama will have no success trying to 'encourage' the Islamic world to adopt what he calls the universal rights such as freedom or speech and religion.
If the Western world wasn't so deeply entrenched in politically correct, multicultural thinking we would have identified long ago that such values are simply anathema to mainstream Islamic values, as is clearly mandated by the practise of Shariah law.
That is just so true.
11. saintDominick wrote:
I am disappointed by President Obama's opinion of Hosni Mubarak, a totalitarian ruler no better than Mohammar Qaddafi
They read that part of your comment out on the World Service today. I thought it would strike a chord with them. Same old same old BBC trying to be oh so cutting edge and politically correct.
If the Muslim Brotherhood ever gets into power, then you'll really have something to complain about.
14. toughdirtyjoe wrote:
KooKoo you are coocoo Hamas killed off Fatah where are you getting your news? Iran's leader denied the holocaust and is basically a nutjob.
Yes, isnt it amazing how people keep pushing the line of the "democratically-elected Hamas." As if that changes who they are.
18. chronophobe wrote:
You are actually presenting that junk as bold, investigative journalism? Didn't you notice all the anonymous "sources?" And if there is some truth in it, so what? The choice between Hamas and Fatah is a choice between Islamic terrorists and slightly more "moderate" mostly secular terrorists.
69. waterbenefit wrote:
Iran has never attacked anybody (Israel has and continues occupation)
Iran has been attacking Israel for decades through arming, training and funding Hezbollah, Hamas and Islamic Jihad. The Iranians are just too cowardly to be open about it.
Israel attacks only in self-defence. If the Arab and broader Muslim world did not embark on war after war and terror campaign after terror campaign to try to obliterate Israel, there would be no need for Israel to attack them.
99. gunsandreligion wrote:
...hopefully all of the world's religions will moderate and
become more tolerant. A Jewish or Christian fundamentalist is no better
than a Muslim one.
Only if you ignore all the evidence in front of your eyes.
115. At 7:20pm on 02 Jun 2009, bondar wrote:
...individual settlers should be afforded the same opportunities to become citizens of a new Palestinian State as were given to Palestinians who were not displaced from the territory of Israel in the wake of its founding.
And the Palestinians will welcome them with open arms? More than 99% of Jews were driven out of Arab lands in the last half of the 20th century. Most Arab countries have only pitiful remnants of what once were large Jewish communities. And many Arab countries are completely Jew-free.
And people talk about Israel as an apartheid state.
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At # 53 MagicKirin wrote: "Have the U.N assign someone who has not publicly sided with the Palestinians.
At #63 Richard_SM replied "They have. His name is Richard Goldstone. I researched his background for several hours about a month ago and couldn't find any adverse comments. But if you say, you ohave evidence, then I look forward to seeing it. Shouldn't take you long if you already have it."
At # 111, Magic for once gives a source. I'll alert the media.
Granted, the lady he links to states upfront 'I am a Zionist. I am an avowed, unabashed, unashamed supporter of Israel and Zionism (the establishment and maintenance of a Jewish state) and an uncompromising foe of anti-Semitism.' Not perhaps the most objective of observers on Israeli issues - but at least she's honest. [And quite witty and entertaining, eg in some of her self description.]
Only one ever so slight problem. The link Magic gives says damn all about Richard Goldstone. It's primarily about a perceived anti-Israel bias by AP [think that's short for Associated Press.] And also about the alleged anti-Israel bias of the UN. So presumably Magic's 'logic' - so to speak - is not, as he originally said, that Richard Goldstone is biased, but rather that the whole UN is biased and therefore, because Richard Goldstone is working for the UN, he's biased too.
For the record, it appears that Mr Goldstone is from S Africa, of Jewish descent, and the former chief prosecutor for war crimes in Yugoslavia and Rwanda. His Wiki profile is here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Goldstone. His degrees, awards and honours take up several lines.
And any time now, Magic will provide evidence of his bias.
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78, interested.
"Consider - this interview will be available in Iran. What better way to undermine the present Iranian government than to show the US as being thoughtful and open-minded, as not interested in issuing ultimata or making threats. If Obama wanted to help the Iranian opposition, he could hardly have done better. "
Why would we want to undermine the present Iranian government and support the opposition. Are you talking civil war? Or are you thinking to weaken the Iranian government so that America has a better chance to control the country? Iran has a government. It will undergo change because the people demand it. But civil war would wreak havoc. I think, knowing you from previous well-thought out comments, that you have not considered the ramifications of your above quote.
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MagicKirin
You told your lie that Richard Goldstone has, "publicly sided with the Palestinians." You've been caught out - again. Just admit it, instead of squirming. Who can be bothered with people who tell so many lies? From Mark Regev to Ariel Sharon to Bibi Netanyahu, it's just a constant fountain of lies. Nobody believes it anymore. Your time has passed. Write what you like now - we know it's excuses or lies.
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#121,
On the contrary I was addressing the issue directly...
How can there be a two state solution (if you exclude the one they already have which is called Jordan) when the Palestinians do not want it? The Palestinians want to kill the Israelis or subdue them under Islamic law and only occassionly pretend otherwise when it's time to beg for aid from the UN.
Unless (and i'm not holding my breath) the Muslims openly reject their current Islamic supremacist agenda, begin embracing the concept of equality of rights for all people, definitively abandon the idea of conquest by jihad and the subjugation of non-Muslims then any 'two-state solution' will simply be used as a launching pad for the next jihadi effort to obliterate Israel forever. The Israelis will not allow this to happen, no matter how desperate Obama is to throw them to the wolves.
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muslims muslims muslims
what ever happened to the
insulated americans we all
used to love and / or hate
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Here's a positive step in US - Iran relations:
Obama has told U.S. embassies and consulates around the world to invite Iranian officials to Independence Day parties and festivities on 4th July.
When will Israel realise the world has changed? Time to start co-operating. Can Israel do it?
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#119, ambassada, yes, you are the only one. But we like you, anyway...
#125, Ms. Marbles, I'm sure that IF can speak for himself (or herself?),
but anyway, I'm quite sure that IF's point was that a moderate communication
from an American leader could undermine the point of view of the current
hardline regime in the upcoming election, and perhaps benefit a moderate
contender. I don't think that IF was advocating promotion of a civil
war in Iran. After all, isn't the whole point of an election to have
a peaceful transfer of power without a civil war?
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#129,
Yeah we can all forget the global Jihad now...The Iranians are going to have hot dogs with the Americans! You really are naive and wifully ignorant of the real issues involved here.
The Mullahs in Iran will be laughing their socks off at Obama (and you if they read your previous post). When will you realise that by taking a concillatory and apologetic tone towards a group of religious facists it will only ever be received as a sign of weakness, prompting contempt and demands for unwarranted concessions? Here's a quote for you:
"We say to you that you yourselves know that you are today in a position of weakness. Your hands are empty, and you can no longer promote your affairs from a position of strength."
Thug-in-chief Ahmadinejad responding to Obamas cosy speech about reaching out to the Islamic world.
Enjoy your party.
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Ref 127. Zaraki1
Ref 123. TrueToo
You're another pair hanging on desperately to lies, unable to move forward. If Israel is left to you, it won't exist in ten years time. Israel should be saved in some form. So lost in your own propaganda, you're unable think clearly now that opportunities are available. Nobody believes it anymore. Your own community is screaming, and you can't hear it. You people will destroy Israel completely, which will be a shame.
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#132,
And just what propaganda would that be exactly? So far in my posts I have only quoted from the upper echelons of Islamic politics and religous scholars in the Middle East.
When they themselves say they do not seek peace but the destruction of Israel and the entire non-Muslim world, am I not to believe them? Don't project your own ignorance onto me sir.
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ref #126
I did not lie you asked for proof I gave it to you.
Go back to your friends at the Daily Kos or Huffington Post and tell your lie.
Proudly celebrating Israel's anniversary and hope to visit their capitol Jerusulem very soon.
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ref #129
To Richard S M andot her terrorist supporters. Israel cooperating means give in to all demands and trust that the Palestinians who do not keep their word will attack you.
Accept because you are Jews that the moslem nations will never have cordial relations.
Accept that the U.N will never investigate terrorist attacks sponsored by Iran or any other country.
Accept that your poeple will be attacked by homicide bombers and ignorant college students will blame you
That is what cooperations mean to Richard S M
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Ref 127, Zaraki
Are you proposing ethnic cleansing in the so-called Palestinian territories and a forced migration to Jordan as a solution?
Insinuating that a two-state solution is unacceptable because of the potential threat an independent Palestinian state would pose to Israel, even though the Palestinians don't have a formal Army, NAVY, or Air Force and the fact that Israel has one of the most powerful militaries in the world? In addition to having some of the most sophisticated weapons, including a nuclear arsenal, Israel has one of the best equipped, trained, and disciplined troops in the world; and if that wasn't enough, it has the unconditional support of the most powerful nation in the world. Do you honestly believe the hapless Palestinians pose a threat to Israel existance?
The intransigence and inflexibility of Arafat and Hamas were, in my opinion, detrimental to the welfare of the Palestinian people; but make no mistake, the biggest impediment to peace in the region are the Zionists and the Ashkenazi Jews.
Even if the Palestinians surrender all their grievances, publicly recognize Israel's right to exist, and withdraw their claims to Jerusalem, Israel will find a way to reject the two-state solution. Closing the settlements is a non-negotiable proposition for Israel, and accepting their arch-enemies as legitimate and sovereign neighbors is so offensive to them that they are willing to tell the entire world, including the USA, to take a hike and hit the road...with or without a map.
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re: 107 Richard_SM
I think you are dealing with Dispensationalists here. They are not big on sharing their vision of the future of Israel.
Actually, I shouldn't be rude, and just ask: so, hey TrueToo, are you a Dispensationalist? How about you, Zaraki1?
Yours,
Pinko
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I think it's a fine idea to invite Iranian diplomats to US Independence Day events, but if they don't drink beer or eat pork it won't be a true American barbecue experience. Adjustments will have to be made.
I haven't detected an "apologetic tone" in this. Where does that come from?
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Baseball is played in Iran now: http://www.internationalbaseball.org/iran.htm
Do you suppose the Iranian diplomats will know how to play softball? It's no use asking the American hosts to play cricket.
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Ref 138, Gary
"I haven't detected an "apologetic tone" in this. Where does that come from?"
As I am sure you already know, it comes from people so intolerant of other cultures and religions that the only solutions acceptable to them are extermination or a mass exodus to another galaxy. I wonder if that's the reason we decided to repair and extend the life of the Hubble Space Telescope?
Perhaps Marbles or Princess could shed a light on the pork dilemma which is, indeed, a non-negotiable item. Judging by the amount of liquor Muslims consume when they visit the West I suspect a Budweiser here and there will not be a problem.
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Ref 110 Richard_SM
There will not be any "model for other troubled regions" in the Middle East. Islam is determined to dominate the region. It has declared its desire to obliterate Israel and until that mindset changes there will not be any peace. Israel withdraw from Gaza to get peace and instead got rockets and incessant provocation.
Prime Minister Golda Meier once said there would be peace when Palestinians started loving their children more then they hated Jews, and so it would seem. My first-hand experience with Palestinians was one of seeing irrational hatred towards Jews and Israel.
So enduring peace will not happen. A good idea long ago would have been to disperse Palestinians among other Arab nations, but then, nobody seems to like them, neither Jordanians, Lebanese nor Egyptians. Further, Arab nations prefer to have Israel and the conflict a festering sore, as if keeping the conflict alive prevents anyone from forgetting that it is still there.
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130, guns.
The president doesn't really run things.
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ref #136
You keep asuming that if Israel accepts all the demands that will lead to peace.
What proof is there that the Palestinians want peace. They haven't proved it. The Lebanese haven't either. They made no attempt to reign in Hezbollah.
Israel has proven with Egypt their word means something.
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Ref 129 Richar_SM
Richard, this was truly a pathetic posting! For the sake of peace, in the spirit of Neville Chamberlain you would kiss the butt of the devil.
Not only will the Iranians 'laugh their socks off' at Obama's pitiful naivety and ignorance, they'll regard him as a gutless 'wet'. As to Israelis, their contempt for your unprincipled views, and those of Obama, will know no bounds.
You views remind me of that case in Chicago many, many years ago concerning which I read. A psychopathic killer walked into an apartment where a group of nurses shared lodgings. Collectively the American nurses decided that if they were nice to this man, he would calm down and not harm them. An immigrant nurse, Phillipino I think, thought this nonsense and said they should all rush the man, but they said no, that would only make him more angry.
So this man led nurses, one by one, into an adjacent room where he silently cut their throat. All were murdered - all except the immigrant nurse who had the brains to hide under a bed.
Mushy thinking resulted in those nurses being butchered and you reflect the same mentality. If we are nice to angry, violent, threatening enemies, you think, they will simply become nice and go away. What a pathetic, unrealistic, devoid of reality, gutless mindset!
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# 127 Zaraki1 wrote:
"The Israelis will not allow this to happen, no matter how desperate Obama is to throw them to the wolves."
I would love to hear the evidence you have that President Obama - and presumably his Sec of State, HR Clinton - are "desperate to throw the Israelis to the wolves". [Whatever exactly that means.]
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# 134 MagicKirin wrote:
ref #126
"I did not lie "
Yes you did
"you asked for proof"
Yes he did
"I gave it to you."
No you didn't
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#136,
Yes you are right, the Palestinians are not threat at all. When they say they wish death and destruction upon all Jews they don't really mean it and they certainly don't receive military and financial support from other Islamic states...nor would they ever use such support to pursue a path of violence in the region. I'm sure you'd love to have them living in your back yard. Let's go back to sleep and forget this whole thing.
#137,
No i'm not a Dispensationalist, you can call me a Realist if you'd like to pigeon hole me. Are you a Simpleton?
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To robloop #144:
In your metaphor, do you represent the "psychopathic killer" and the "nurses" represent rational arguments and MagicKirin the "immigrant nurse"?
Can you be more specific and express your argument explicitly without the use of vague metaphors?
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#52, 70
Full frontal puppet nudity. Oh yeah. Now we're talking.
Suntanned Sam
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Obama had better tread lightly about Israeli settlements and other concessions to the Arabs. It may win him friends in Islamia and Europe but that kind of talk will only get him new political enemies in America, the only place that counts. America is largely at one with Israel. The American government's position that Hamas is a terrorist group is right on target while many Americans see the so called "Palestinian moderates" in the West Bank as little or no better. There isn't going to be a two state solution anytime soon, maybe never. A Palestinian state would only be one more launching pad for terrorism. In fact the region is much closer to a three state solution than a two state solution anyway. Even Egypt and Saudi Arabia have all but given up on the Palis. They'd better make the best of what they have. If they don't, bad as it is, it will probably only get worse for them from here.
In this conflict as in virtually anything else of significance, Europe is entirely irrelevant. What Europeans say is irrelevant. What Europeans do is Irrelevant. They can't even take care of their own political divisions, they should stay out of matters that don't concern them and in which they are as always on the wrong side of history.
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re 147 Are you a Simpleton?
Now, now. No need to call me names.
Being a 'realist,' I think, requires you to look at both sides of the issue. You are certainly ready to point out the failings of the whole Islamic faith, the entire Palestinian people, all Arabs, all Iranians, ... the list may go on. To completely ignore the other side of the equation is not realistic. It is absurd.
Yours,
Pinko
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#137, pinky, that's an interesting article, and suddenly makes sense of the position of some posters here. Why do they support a path that can only lead to destruction? Now we know.
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A good change at last.
But as an Iranian I feel this is coming too little too late. And frankly it is not enough.
First he talks about democracy and how "Americans" value it but when confronted about the dictatorship in Egypt, he bails out on that value.
He ruled out appology. That is not acceptable. Atleast not to me.
He talks in a great way about freedom and lashes back at us for not cherishing it but he does not mention that United States has always supported the most despotic regimes in the region. I am sure he is not aware about Mossadeq and 1953 coup to curtail Iranian freedom.
He invites Iranian diplomats to celebrations on July 4th without remembering IranAir Flight 655.
I am not impressed!
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Ref 153
"I am sure he is not aware about Mossadeq and 1953 coup to curtail Iranian freedom."
I suspect the opposite is true. Should we assume that you prefer the climate of confrontation that has dominated US-Iran relations since the hostage crisis? President Obama has extended an olive branch to Iran, rejecting his offer will destroy a rare opportunity to re-establish relations between two nations that don't trust each other for well founded reasons, and would guarantee a continuance of the status quo in the Persian Gulf and the Middle East.
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I enjoyed the interview. I am always impressed with President Obama.
One of the important and current issues that Justin didn't explore with Obama is North Korea and it's Nuclear testing and missiles ?
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Ref 144. roboloop
Interesting Chicago story. Tell me, how did the nurses know he was (a) psychopathic and (b) a killer?
Why was he angry when he walked into an apartment with a bunch of nurses inside? Surely, of all the apartments he could have walked into, he struck it lucky!
When the killer was in the adjacent room, why didn't the nurses just leave? Or even dial 911?
Could this killer count? After killing the penultimate nurse, did he not wonder where the Philipino nurse was? ("Now where did I leave that Philipino nurse?")
I presume that in your story that Israel is 'the psychopathic killer' as it has walked into someone else's home and started killing. The nurses are perhaps the other Arab states trying to appease the intruder. The Philipino nurse who stayed in the same room with the killer must the Palestinians. Am I right?
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Obama Copacabana is Bush by other means so it's becoming increasingly redundant to say on human rights "he will dissapoint". Politically correct multi-cultural imperialism is every bit as ruthless and lethal as the old 'white-male-chauvinist' variety. A half-black president and a female Sec. of State and zionist advisors and other demographic touch-ups aren't about to fool anyone on the ground despite the massive propaganda effort put behind it by the ductile corporate press. So complaisant foreign correspondents cum cheerleaders can go on cooing about Sasha and Malia to distract attention from their daddy pulverizing Palestinian and Afghani toddlers and upholding torturers and despots like Mubarak and Netanyahu in the name of imperial "stability".
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Ref 146. john-In-Dublin
Hilarious isn't it! Does this blog link to another planet?
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re: 152 seanspa
It does give an insight into where some of this one eyed stuff might come from.
More of a similar ilk here.
Yours,
Pinko
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DouglasFir
You give me renewed hope that all is not lost after all.
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ref #157
I'll take an autocratic Netanyhu (who is elected in a democracy) than the war criminals that the Palestinians in Gaza choose to be ruled by.
Palestinians have the blood of their children on their hands.
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ref #153
We don't need lecture from you. Khoemheni was a murderous coward just like all the Iranain leaders sinnce.
You were far better off under the Shah than Mullah terrorists.
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#159, pinko, it was a bit heavy in one go. I'll come back to it. I was struck though with the very early reference to someone called marcus.
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Ref 148 _Marko
The only thing "vague" here is your capacity to comprehend. And when considering your views about achieving peace I think this metaphor is extremely appropriate. As with those nurses, the psychopathic killer would slit your throat after you indulged in wishful thinking about creating a peaceful atmosphere, instead of fighting back.
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re:153 bigreenstorms
Let's emphasize that first sentence, shall we?
Yes, bad things have happened. Now is an opportunity to move forward, to open a hopeful dialogue. We owe at least as much to the future as we do the past.
re: 157 Dougie
You and the right wing ideologues should get together. You could take turns coming up with the most unrealistic, unhelpful, hopeless scenario. Who needs post-apocalyptic millenarianism when you could have the dictatorship of the proletariat?
Yours,
Pinko
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re: 164 robloop
rob, we're the guys with big armies, big economies, lots of power. I don't feel like a helpless victim of a crazed psychopath.
I do wonder why the neighbors are so pi$$ed of at us though. Maybe we should talk to them?
Yours,
Pinko
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And another Guantanamo prisoner 'dies' today in US custody. Obama will be in the Middle East tomorrow. He should call round to this young man's parents' house in Yemen and break the news. I don't suppose anyone else will tell his Mum and Dad, who haven't seen him in seven years.
When previous suicides have occurred, the Camp Commander has said it amounts to "an act of war." WHAT? Rear Admiral Harris has said in the past about other suicides, "...this was not an act of desperation, but an act of asymmetrical warfare waged against us."
These prisoners are shackled around the ankles. Short shackled around their wrists. Have no possessions in their cells. Are monitored by a small camera in their cells. The cell is never allowed to be dark. Are force fed with a 42"inch tube when on hunger strike. They have no belts, no cords, no knives. So how exactly do they manage to 'commit suicide.'
A U.S. military spokesman said his body was being treated respectfully and in accordance with Muslim tradition. (Unlike how he was treated when he was alive)
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BBC TV reported tonight that the US continues to try to destabalize Iran. I think it is a vain attempt and wishful thinking. Iran is approaching a point where the US will have to consider decisive military action as the only effective way to deal with Iran's threat to America's vital interests once and for all. Should Hezbullah come to control Lebanon, that will be a very ominous sign for any peace prospects. It will be one more piece of evidence of Iran's ambitions for regional hegemony, one more reason why there will be a civil war with regional participation in Iraq once the US substantially pulls out. The so called Palestinian issue is a side show of no real importance.
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Ref 156 Richard_SM
Why not rather look the story up for yourself. I did, on Google. The murderer was a Richard Speck. He murdered 8 nurses.
The nurse who survived the hostel slaying was as Corazon Amurao. "Ms Amurao had been tied up in a bedroom with the other nurses after the killer rang the doorbell and brandished a knife to gain entry."
"She survived by rolling under a bed when he left the room with nurses who were subsequently killed. The killer apparently lost count of his victims and left without discovering Ms Amurao."
Your equating Israel with the psychopathic killer is worse than pathetic, but par for the course with warped thinkers of he extremely naive left.
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More US speakers on Guantanamo 'suicides:'
Colleen Graffy, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Public Diplomacy describes 'suicide' in Guantanamo Bay as "a good PR move to draw attention". She told reporters they were part of a strategy and "a tactic to further the jihadi cause", but taking their own lives was unnecessary.
Where did she learn that 'public diplomacy' stuff? No wonder she's only Deputy Assistant!
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What is so hard to understand here? Israel and the Palestinians have both behaved for over 60 years like oversensitive, chip-on-the-shoulder, machismo-driven, insecure adolescents. They've both been wrong, and both been wronged, and neither can bear to lose face by conceding anything.
By bearing grievances before their eyes, both sides are perpetually blinded and feel justified in committing their own outrages and atrocities. It is so far gone that "who started it?" no longer matters; rhetoric can no longer matter.
And resolution does matter. One of the biggest obstacles to any development toward more openness and democracy is that democracy in the Middle East has become (for better or worse) associated with the very undemocratic way Israel has treated their own Palestinian citizens, and with the one-sided treatment of the conflict the world's foremost democracies. We've given it a bad name by not championing freedom and democracy.
Time for both sides to grow up, and realize that macho doesn't cut it. And time for the West to get tough with both sides.
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166 Chronophobe
Iran is not without a big army and has ambitions. Neither has it been docile with its threats, not least about exterminating Israel.
Why is it never they who try to hold out the olive branch?
I think you should read more to find out why the Muslim 'neighbors' are so "pissed" at us. They've been "pissed" at everyone who didn't agree with or embrace their religion, ever since emerging in 633AD from what is now Saudi Arabia. They invaded and subjugated neighbouring lands, Byzantia, Persia, Holy Land, then North Africa, then parts of Europe, Spain not least, but also right throught to Vienna, Austria, before getting clobbered and driven out - well, to some extent.
So they "pissed" us off and then we pissed them off when their strength waned.
I dare say there has been 'pissing off' and wrong from both sides, but they are just juvenile about forgetting their provocations and atrocities against others while remembering those committed by others against them.
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The idea of a monolithic Islam, bent on world domination is the laughable construct of people in need of bad guys. If 1.5 billion Moslems were intent on global takeover, we'd know about it- and it wouldn't be a few tens of thousands in Afghanistan and Pakistan and Iraq conducting nationalistic campaigns in their own country. Iran would have long since occupied its neighbors, but it hasn't even moved to take puny little Azerbaijan, with whom it shares strong ethnic ties, or the ripe-for-the-picking former Soviet republics in Central Asia.
To lump Turk with Bosnian with Iranian with Arab with Malayan with American, to assume that all follow in lockstep the Wahhabist extremist fundamentalist credo, and to pick those few misguided souls whose sociopolitical situations lead them into violent crime as somehow representative of 20% of the world's population is sad, tragic, naive, and so simplistic as to beggar belief.
One could as easily have made deductions by trying to lump Germany, Spain, Greece, and England during the Reformation under one stereotypical "Christian" label, or Iroquois and Lenape and Sioux and Natchez under the label of "Indian"- regardless of the name, it just doesn't make those labeled be unified.
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ref #171
Another moral equvilency argument.
Israel has made generous concessions. What have the Palestinians done?
Continue terrorism
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I think GITMO is as fine a prison as you'll find anyplace on earth to keep terrorists locked up. It is humane and safe. It was built to purpose. Congress must think so too because they rejected $80 million the administration requested to close it and won't approve it until Obama comes up with something at least as good. Will we see Democrats in Congress rebel against Obama along with Republicans who will inevitably if Obama tries to bring them into the United States for trial and imprisonment? I wouldn't be surprised. Anyway, I don't think Americans or Congress will be disposed to spend large sums of money to replace a perfectly good terrorist prison just because it would be good public relations with Europe and the Moslems. GITMO may just be around for a long time. It's nice to rattle the Castro brothers' cage with it too.
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Israeli TV is reporting that Obama met with Defense Minister Ehud Barak on Tuesday and said he intends to give Netanyahu just six weeks to come up with a solution to the West Bank Settlements and wants the formal Israeli response to the two-state solution. Do the Israelis like being rushed and hassled?
In line with earlier predictions, Obama means business with Israel. No more procrastination. As I wrote in a post above, Obama is holding all the cards. Netanyahu has started off by being obstinate. He's played his only card in the first round. Didn't Bibi see this coming? Who knows, Obama might pop across to Tehran during his five day visit. That would upset the Israeli cabinet. They need to get serious. Which is it? One state or two state?
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Ref 172. robloop wrote:
"...[Muslims] are just juvenile about forgetting their provocations and atrocities against others while remembering those committed by others against them."
Just after he'd written:
"....ever since emerging in 633AD from what is now Saudi Arabia. They [Muslims] invaded ... Byzantia, Persia, Holy Land, then North Africa..."
You're such a laugh, yet you don't know it.
BTW when did this bit happen "So they "pissed" us off ..." And who's "us?"
:-)
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robloop -- rather than get into a pointless argument about Crusaders and the like, I would ask you this: you do realize that the Caliphate was the most advanced civilization, by far, outside of China, until at least the 14th C.? That their imperial expansion was in no material way different from the later imperial expansion of the European powers?
Are you also aware of the importance of Sufism in the growth of the Caliphate?
The civilization you seem to despise is far more diverse and complex than you think. The fanatics of today are at a distant remove from the mainstream religious practices and beliefs of the golden era.
Yours,
Pinko
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I can't think of a single Moslem country that doesn't grossly violate the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in the Charter of the United Nations they signed up to. Whether it's abuse, enslavement, and murder of women, intolerence for people practicing other religions in their country, fatwas, support of assassinations, support of genocidal wars, support for terrorists, lack of freedom of expression, lack of freedom of the press, you'd be hard pressed to find even one that resembles a civilized country. Turkey is going the way of the rest of the Moslem world although I don't think they will be stoning women for awhile yet. But don't bring up their genocide of the Armenians if you visit there or you may wind up inside a Turkish prison. Obama's mumbo jumbo talk about imposing democracy is just more of the same claptrap we heard from him during the campaign. How about him just telling the Moslems to live up to the commitments they've already made. Even that would be a giant leap forward for them but don't hold your breath. He won't ask and they wouldn't act if he did. I don't think most people are paying much attention to what Obama wants. Even his own party has revolted against him on the issue of GITMO.
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SaintOne, J-I-D, Sam, others concerning Team America:
Who is pulling the strings?
#142, Ms. Marbles: O.K., now we've gotten to the heart of the matter.
Who actually runs things in Iran? Who is in charge of their missile
and nuclear programs, and who is it that we must negotiate with?
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171. At 03:13am on 03 Jun 2009, Via-Media wrote:
"What is so hard to understand here? Israel and the Palestinians have both behaved for over 60 years like oversensitive, chip-on-the-shoulder, machismo-driven, insecure adolescents. They've both been wrong, and both been wronged, and neither can bear to lose face by conceding anything...." and 174 -
You talk more sense than a world full of bloggers. Why is this one issue the cause of so much vitriol, even here on a generally civil blog? Is it really the crisis of our times, the clash of civilizations? Or just a turf war between distant cousins? And why so much heat from atheists and agnostics? You'd think it was their gods who were waging a cosmic battle. What's the big deal, anyway?
Why do the Jews matter so much to anybody? There aren't very many of them, as numbers go, and until recently they didn't even have any territory - like the Roma/gypsies, and they had less of a claim than even the Kurds or the Tamils to a place on the stage.
From a social history point of view, this is another facet of the cultural mixing/multiculturalism question - can different cultures get along side by side, and under what conditions? Western society claims to be so liberal - but the EU's sub-nations suddenly feel threatened by each other's citizens coming in as guest workers and even more by the numbers of refugees and workers from Africa and Asia who seem to threaten to dilute their identities -
Cultures can suddenly get quite conservative when they feel threatened; what is happening in Islam has happened in many other places in memory. Maybe winning makes a people generous.....
KScurmudgeon
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182, guns.
"O.K., now we've gotten to the heart of the matter. Who actually runs things in Iran? Who is in charge of their missile and nuclear programs, and who is it that we must negotiate with?"
Maybe it world work we viewed Ahmadinejad as Iranisn secretary of state.
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125. Marbles
No, not at all.
My point is that there are elections going on in Iran, and it seems to me that the world would likely be better off without an Iranian leader who takes a certain glee in both holocaust denial and what looks to me like jingoistic nuclear sabre rattling.
In the past American leaders have provided excellent bogeymen. Demagogues the world over could whip up nationalistic fervor by pointing at America and its leader. I don't believe that any of this was helpful in advancing rational discussion and settlement of contentious issues.
President Obama, on the other hand, just doesn't fit the bill for someone who can be villified as a convenient foreign scapegoat or whipping-boy. He speaks reasonably, calmly, and without cant. He has sucked all the oxygen away from, for example, our friend in Venezuela. Exactly the right way to deal with blowhards like that.
He has taken the fire out of disputes with Cuba. He has poured the balm of Gilead on relations with Europeans and others. And yet underneath it he gives a sense of firmness, too, as if there's metal there, and you just might not want to push your luck by probing too hard. (Not for nothing: he saw off Hilary Clinton's campaign, and not by being a marshmallow, either).
Judging from other news, Iranians are as interested in world affairs as anyone else. They have TV's. They have the internet. They (or any who care to look) may perhaps see or hear this interview, or clips of it. Certainly the US administration believes that somebody in Iran (and lots of other places) watches or listens to the Beeb. That's why this particular placement was chosen. Maybe they will see a reasonable man, interested in solving problems. And just maybe that presentation of reasonableness may help drain some votes away from the hatemongers. If I wanted to encourage Iranian voters to vote for the current opposition, I can think of hardly anything better for an American President to do.
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182, guns.
Let me amend that slightly. Secretary of state, but with more influence.
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185, Ms. Marbles, who is in charge? Who's the Big Cahuna, the Head Honcho,
the Big Wheel?
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186, Interested.
Why would anyone listen to the babble of politicians? The only thing that means anything is an event, or an action, or a result. What they say is, well, political. And this is true for all politicians, not just ours. Ahmadinejad may talk holocoast nonsense to buddy up with the Arabs, but have the Iranians persecuted their Jews? No. You speak of Obama being villified. Turn it around. We are pretty good in the villifying department, and your comment reflects it.
In your last paragraph you toss around words like "hatemongers," based on propaganda and political babble. You also naively think we have influence on the Iranian electorate. Guess what? They want what is best for them, not best for us (or what we think is best for us, and we usually get that wrong).
My general rule is: "Don't pay attention to what politicians say. Take seriously what they do." Remembe Obama's vow of "transparency" and "no pork"? I rest my case.
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188, guns.
The Supreme Leader, Ali Khamenei. But that does not mean he is an absolute ruler. He has to negotiate his power.
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190, Ms. Marbles, with whom does Ali Khamenei negotiate to maintain
his power?
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188, guns.
You should read "Hajji Baba of Esfahan." It was written in the early 19th century by an Englishman. I read this before I left for Iran and it was the best preparation I could have had. The nature of people of a given culture does not seem to change. (We are still Puritans at heart, immigration notwithstanding). Also the book is fun to read. If you enjoyed the Mahmur Zapt stories about Egypt, you will like this. The British are exceptonally talented at capturing the essense of a foreign culture. If this sort of thing interests you I would also recommend the series, by another Brit, the "Number One Ladies Detective Agency." It is about Botswana. Then there there are the Inspecor Ghoti books about an Indian policeman. Also dead on for authenticity.
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191, guns.
"...with whom does Ali Khamenei negotiate to maintain his power?"
Are you baiting me, guns? That is a whacky question. Who does Obama negotiatie with? Or does he just do whatever he wants, not matter how many people he steps on? It's the same thing there. Khamenei has to have powerful friends and supporters, and to keep them he has to give something. Politics as usual.
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192, Ms. Marbles, I'll order a copy, but if push comes to shove, and
the Iranians put a nuclear warhead on a missile, who is the guy with whom
we will have to deal, and who (person or group of people) on their side
would have the authority to "push the button" on their side?
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192, further.
Despite the titles of some of these books, they are not murder mysteries. They are adventures in a culture.
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193, no, I'm being serious. Are they tribal leaders, mullahs, governors, mayors,
what?
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196, guns.
All of the above, plus the Bazaaris, plus he would probably try to seduce those opposing him. Very Iranian.
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194. guns.
I think I misunderstood your question. There could not be "one" person to push a button. It would have to be a decision. But if you think Iran would attack with a nuclear missile forget it. They are not nuts.
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I'm just going to have to read the book. I looked up the term,
"Bazaari," and I still don't understand who they are.
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199. gims.
The bazaar is the main trading area. In Tehran it is huge covered edifice (I think the biggest in the Middle East). Arabs would call it a "souk." Bazaaris tend to be very conservative and religious, unlike the professionals, none of whom I ever remember going to a mosque or praying at home..
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200, further.
Maybe I was still not clear. A bazaari is a trader who works out of a bazaar. Khamenei would have his strongest support there.
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200, further.
some of the tribes are semiautonomous and other's are beyond the control of the central government.
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200, further.
So much for his being an absolute ruler!
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Ms. Marbles, I'll try to learn about it. But, that will have to wait
for another day. It's time for me to sign off.
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Here's my idea for solving the Israeli/Palestinian conflict or for making some headway. We need to follow the example of diplomacy set by Presidents Teddy Roosevelt and Carter. Pres. Obama needs to get an Israeli delegation and a Fatah delegation to come to the US at the same time for peace talks and preferably hold it in a secluded location with nice weather and no media access, then not let them leave until some real and binding settlement is reached between the two groups-no matter how long it takes. I know most people are familiar with Carter and the Camp David Accords; I suggest yall read up on T.R. and the Treaty of Portsmouth.
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A better solution to the problem would be to identify its roots. Hamas & Fatah are very open about their hatred of the Jewish people, their desire to see Israel destroyed and replaced with a Shariah state. They don't believe in peace with non-Muslims.
No doubt both sides are suffering and both sides have rights and responsibilities, but only the Palestinians actually celebrate death and destruction. There will be no peace until the Palestinians completely abandon the Islamic mandate of domination and subjugation of non-Muslims. For that to happen people in the West need to recognise this ideology at work and put strong pressure on the Palestinians to reject it. If they did reject it, the region would see peace in no time.
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#168 MarcusAureliusII
"Iran is approaching a point where the US will have to consider decisive military action as the only effective way to deal with Iran's threat to America's vital interests once and for all."
On what grounds do you make that astonishing assertion?
Didn't the US by invading Iraq actually increase Iran's influence?
A fledgling nuclear enrichment programme monitored by the IAEA under the NPT? Perhaps it's because Israel, now faced with a US President unwilling to let it continue building illegal settlements, requires the region be destabilised again.
At every time in the recent past, when faced with the threat of peace, Israel has stepped up extra judicial assassinations, house demolitions and attacked its neighbours.
And people wonder why the US is disliked in the Middle East.
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#175 MagicKirin
"Israel has made generous concessions."
Leaving East Jerusalem? No.
Returning the Golan Heights? No.
Leaving the West Bank? No.
Stopping extra judicial assassinations? No.
Lifting the siege of Gaza? No.
Closing Israel's Guantanamo (Facility 1391)? No.
Yes, many concessions.
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#206
Morning Zaraki.
"Hamas & Fatah are very open about their hatred of the Jewish people, their desire to see Israel destroyed and replaced with a Shariah state. They don't believe in peace with non-Muslims."
Maybe thats true for all Hamas and Fatah, maybe it isn't. But just because there are some rotten apples Palestine doesn't mean the good ones (they do exist, I promise!) should be ignored.
"No doubt both sides are suffering and both sides have rights and responsibilities"
There is some moderate in you after all :)
"but only the Palestinians actually celebrate death and destruction"
I'm going to take responsibilty and edit that to:
"but only SOME Palestinians actually celebrate death and destruction"
And Israel didn't seem to mind too much about the civilians killed when it attacked the Gaza strip.
"For that to happen people in the West need to recognise this ideology at work and put strong pressure on the Palestinians to reject it"
Again only those Palestinians that support it, not all.
I suggest you look at the photos of the writings and pictures drawn onto the wall (both sides) that seperates Palestine and Israel. Some of it's quite moving and shows not eveyrone wants conflict and division.
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197 allmymarbles
An article I read not that long ago suggested that we might benefit by viewing Iranian leadership more as an oligarchy, in some part elected, with shifting power bases and varying popular support. Would this be a fair estimation.
I'm sure having such a controversial lighting rod as president can be a valuable distraction away from the true decisionmakers...
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175 MK
No moral equivalency at all. Both sides in the Palestinian conflict have committed atrocities, period. Weighing them, or searching for historical roots, only produces more resentment and self-righteous indignation and outrage. Only when both sides just stop- and start looking for agreement, will the situation ever start to resolve.
When my children bicker, it can go on forever unless both give up.
205 Bienvenue
Not a bad suggestion. Lock them both in until them can stop fighting. THe trick would be getting them to that point...
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931290 People Have Lost The Game
RULE 1: You are playing The Game.
RULE 2: Whenever you think about The Middle East, you lose.
RULE 3: Loss must be announced.
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Irish_Mark wrote:
#175 MagicKirin
"Israel has made generous concessions."
Leaving East Jerusalem? No.
Returning the Golan Heights? No.
Leaving the West Bank? No.
Stopping extra judicial assassinations? No.
Lifting the siege of Gaza? No.
Closing Israel's Guantanamo (Facility 1391)? No.
Yes, many concessions.
Returning Gaza
Not bombing the way most attacked countries would leaving Lebanon and Gaza craters
Returning the Sinai
Israel has been too generous.
The Palestinians and Lebanese do not want peace. What don't they take Nazarallah out of his headquarters and turn this terrorist coward over to Israel?
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RE 21
You are spot on, NO ONE is taking Obama seriously,Isreal, North Korea, The Muslim World, South America China and even the EU.
Obama has been found out and he's been found wanting.
I'm not going to claim, for one moment that he's not a nice guy, with good intentions but the same could have been said for Carter and all hes remembered for is the Irainian Hostage Crisis.
I've just returned home from a business trip to Chicago and Detroit and it seems that even there, in his own heartland, that popularity is waining, and not only as a result of the plant closures in Motown and their suppliers elsewhere.
The African-American Gentleman,(I hate these devisive Hypens), I was speaking with at O'Hare expresse the opinion that "Obama is hurting his own people" by allowing the Plant Closures as part of the restructuring of GM while allowing Bankers and those primarily responsible for the Financial meltdown.
Another thing that seemed to rankle was the Obama Datenight in NYC, which will probably turn out to be one of the most expensive nights out in History.
I have feeling the honeymoon could be coming to an end
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Ref 213, Magic
"Not bombing the way most attacked countries would leaving Lebanon and Gaza craters"
I guess it all depends on what you consider "attacked". I happen to think that the Palestinians made a mistake using their rudimentary rockets against Israel, not only because those rockets are no match to Israel's military capabilities, but because they gave their oppressors a justification to launch savage attacks against a civilian population incapable of defending itself. Watching F-16s and tanks bomb schools, hospitals. and apartment buildings may be a sign of restraint to you, most people consider it genocide.
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Will people please stop banging on about the Middle East.
Most people here don't live there and should get on with
their own hum drum lives in the Americas or Europe or
what ever land mass or continuos body they reside.
It's very one sided as not many Palestinians blog.
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Irissh Pub, I'm not going through the well known litany of facts that prove without the slightest doubt that Iran's dogma about a world without the Great Satan and erasing the Little Satan from the map or from history or however you want to rephrase a genocidal war to destroy Israel is more than mere words but the concerted goal Iran is pursuing. Israel is doing some of the things it has to to resist and survive but so far not nearly enough while the rest of the world has rolled over and played dead. So far the government of Iran has not suffered any consequences of importance to it's aggression just as the government of North Korea hasn't. All this foolish talk about settlements, territory, extra-judicial killings is a smokescreen of the real issue, unopposed aggression by nations with ambitions of regional conquest. Those who do not learn the lessons of history according to Santayana are condemned to relive them. And so it will be in a world that has fogotten the lessons of WWII and has used the ruse of some absurd notion of international law and negotiation as a substitute for facing an unpalatable truth and dealing with it effectively. But eventually that luxury, the ostrich strategy always winds up in disaster. The only question is how long will the world wait, how much damage will be done because it procrastinated. I think it will be devastating and no corner of the earth will escape the consequences. It's only a matter of when, not if. As for our abomination of a President Obama, if he thinks he can strongarm Israel into suicidal concessions to placate the Moslems and Europe, he's dreaming and he can just foget about it. That is one strategy that could actually bring the Republican Party back from the dead.
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Marcus Attacks
You must have been in transit when you stopped over in the middle east
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205. BienvenueEnLouisiana
Pres. Obama needs to get an Israeli delegation and a Fatah delegation to come to the US at the same time for peace talks
What about Hamas? They have been democratically elected. Or do you practise 'selective democracy?'
206. Zaraki1
Forget your (inaccurate) pre-conditions. See post #100 It's either a one state or two state solution. Which are you going for?
207. Irish_Mark wrote:
"On what grounds do you make that astonishing assertion?"
He doesn't have any. No grounds. No facts. No logic. He's an empty shell as I have proven many times.
208. Irish_Mark
Well done. Keeping people in touch with reality is essential.
210. Via-Media
191. gunsandreligion
I might be wrong, but you both appear to be searching for something sinister in the Iranian democratic structure. It's a democratic structure. Simple as that. It has attributes, pros and cons, just like any other system. If you want to compare it to the British or American system, you will find Iran's judicial is far more independent. You will also find power is more evenly spread, unlike Britain and US which places more power in one person.
MagicKirin
Everybody has seen post #116. Your posts are nonsense. It's proven, beyond all doubt. Nobody believes you.
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To MAII #218
1) Why do you think most of your prolific stories conclude or imply that we should bomb people and support the military?
2) Can you confirm you are not paid or supported by another body (e.g. defence company, government, political party etc.) specifically to make up so many posts here?
3) Why do you feel the Republican Party is dead?
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# 215 KAS1865 wrote:
"You are spot on, NO ONE is taking Obama seriously,Isreal, North Korea, The Muslim World, South America China and even the EU./Obama has been found out and he's been found wanting./[More-anti-Obama stuff]/I have feeling the honeymoon could be coming to an end"
Isn't it nice to have some fair and objective comment on Obama for a change....
Obviously I am foolish to question someone who has the telepathic powers to know what "Isreal [sic], North Korea, The Muslim World [whatever that is] , South America China and even the EU" think. Clearly the whole world, and especially the EU, has lost the deep affection and respect for the US government which they shared under Bush/Cheney. [A deep affection and respect also held by Americans, to judge from the polls.]
But I couldn't help thinking that some of KAS1865's comments seemed strangely familiar.
13 March, 2 1/2 months ago, he wrote - "just as I said shortly after the election, the Honeymoon is coming to an end, even quicker than even I expected."
18 December, some 5 1/2 months ago, and over a month before Obama was even inaugurated - "As each day passes it becomes clearer that the American Public have been conned, not for the first time, by the Democrats in league with an Anti-Bush Media./I find Obama even less inspiring than Ross Peroit [sic]. He is bound to fail and scandal already appears to be stalking him from many directions."
Strangely enough, KAS1865's "evidence" for this 'end of the honeymoon' is somewhat ethereal. That is to say, it's nothing so mundane as opinion polls. No - it's people he talks to. Who are no doubt the type of people who share his views.
Well, KA, keep on with the wishful thinking. When Obama's poll ratings reach Bush/Cheney levels, then I'm sure he'll start worrying....
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ref #220
Newflash Richard S M speaks for everyone.
Justin I guess you can close your blog down.
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#220 Richard
Taken from the bbc info on Iran:
"A president is publicly elected every four years from a candidate list vetted by the influential Guardian Council, half of whose members are themselves appointed by the powerful and conservative Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khameni."
So there is an opportunity for the Surpeme leader to influence who the candidates are.
From wikipedia:
"More powerful than the president of Iran, the Leader appoints the heads of many powerful posts - the commanders of the armed forces, the director of the national radio and television network, the heads of the major religious foundations, the prayer leaders in city mosques, and the members of national security councils dealing with defence and foreign affairs. He also appoints the chief judge, the chief prosecutor, special tribunals and, with the help of the chief judge, the 12 jurists of the Guardian Council the powerful body that decides both what bills may become law and who may run for president or parliament."
I would say that the power still ultimately falls to one person and is not as evenly spread as you make out.
I'm not saying that the British or American ways are perfect, but the Iranian system can be subject to the abuse of one persons agenda.
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ref 179 chronophobe
My 181 and 183 were attempts to respond to you, but evidently my comments
about Islam, though factual, were considered by the mods as too blunt. So
now I'll choose my words.
However, I did point our that civilizations, like that of the Greeks, Romans, Babylonians, and others, rise and then fall into decay, and I'm not hung up or in awe of what once was with Islam - even after reading about the 'Golden years' in Spain. The description by the Carthaginians and others of astounding brutality from the invading hoards who swept across North Africa says enough. Hardly representative of a
'civilization'.
Rome's many achievements are still there for all to see and I don't know of any equivalent from Islam. Then, as the then Archbishop of Canterbury a few years ago told a gathering of Moslem clerics, over the last one thousand years Islam hadn't made even one contribution to scientific advancement. Something seems to have gone badly wrong. Possibly religious fanaticism kills creativity and priorities become one-dimensional. In the end it's what now exists that for us matters and in that regard I am totally underwhelmed.
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#222 John
Haha nice way to stick it to KAS :)
I guess the honey moon is coming to an end....wait for it.....no not just yet......hang on......nearly there....no wait......
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Ref 222. john-In-Dublin wrote:
"Strangely enough, KAS1865's "evidence" for this 'end of the honeymoon' is somewhat ethereal. That is to say, it's nothing so mundane as opinion polls."
Having already established that KAS's telepathic abilities allow him to know what the rest of the world thinks of Obama, it's not unreasonable to assume that those same abilities allow him to know what the American people are thinking. Therefore, he is best placed to know when the honeymoon is coming to an end. After all, telepathy is far more accurate/reliable than such mundane tools as "opinion polls".
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_marko
1) it's the only thing that works
2) I'm not
3) it is.
Irish_pub, I'm not surprised when someone from Ireland supports terrorists. Isn't that what the IRA was all about?
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#228
I'm not surprised you could be so ignorant, it's what your all about.
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Oh sainted one, speaking about ignorant, tell me where you went to school and if you paid tuition, I'll write to the chancellor of the school petitioning on your behalf for a complete refund. Clearly the school did not earn its money in your case.
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Ref 225, Rob
"Rome's many achievements are still there for all to see and I don't know of any equivalent from Islam."
Dismissing the contributions of an ancient culture to civilization is risky, to put it mildly, particularly when we consider the remarkable achievements of the Islamic world to modern civilization.
Among the most remarkable contributions made to modern civilization by Muslim scholars and people (Arabs, Persians, Turks, and others) are the adoption of agricultural techniques in ancient Mesopotamia, basic arithmetic, algebra, trigonometry, major breakthroughs in medicine, astronomy, architecture, literature and poetry when the European barbarians were living in caves and wearing animal pelts.
I enjoyed visiting Roman and Celtic ruins when I was in Europe, but they were no match to the beauty of Islamic structures.
I don't see anything wrong in criticizing people because of their behavior, as long as we are not doing the same thing, but I think it is very wrong to deny people their heritage.
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#230
And perhaps you could give me the address of your parents so I can write a letter on your behalf, demanding an apology for why they raised you to be such a donkey.
And for the record, I didn't pay tuition. I passed an entrance exam.
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GnR again why ask when it is obvious there is legion at work.
Now Rob the racist is back with a vengence backed up by legion and the new improved independant .
zarki the incredibly confused illogical again somewhat bias (to use some of robs allowed phrases) "cowardly ""scumbag".
You say
"you have not even read the Quran then you are hardly in a position to comment on Islamic Jurisprudence.
Also 'Eye for an Eye' is in the Old Testament...it was replaced by Jesus' teaching to 'Turn the other cheek', 'love and pray for those who hate you and spitefully abuse you' etc. That is pretty basic stuff, anyway you will see the two are not comparable when you read the Quran."
You keep arguing about islam and ISRAEL. in case you had not noticed Israel is NOT a christian nation and DOES follow the old testament.
Just they forget who started poking. and that the eye for an eye is a response to others attacks.
they seem to have interpreted it as when you have shot one eye out you will have an easier time taking another.
My So glad I got bored today. such a vast wealth of fertaliser to help the garden.
Seems that real basic fact went right by your bigotry skirted off rob and the evil smelling condiment and caused some mental problems for some of your fellow Israel supporters.
so for our support of the health democratic democracy of israel good to see they realised how far down naziism the following would have taken them, strange they would consider it .a good decision by the cabinate.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8076145.stm
now for this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8016258.stm
and this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8066892.stm
note the article writes that not all are as dumb and "scumbaggy" as the posters here are adding to the old idea that legion works to destroy the mideast.
Good to see Richard and some taking on legion and the cohorts.
meanwhile another victim of the war on drugs is locked up because of western bigotry
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8080968.stm
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230 arse( I see you have slipped into the name calling, well done , now add some insight and content and youre almost up to standard.
on tuition fees
you used that joke many times should be struck for spam . seeing as you can't tell the difference between a C5 and a a380 or tell that an extra O ring still may have helpedand generally never got nothing right yet , were kicked out of france for being so bad at medacine and now are an unemployable plug changer I think the thought of you managing to write is enough but seeing as you cannot convince anyone to believe a word you say why do you think they would listen to you?
223 gherkin. on that yes he can . I totally concure with all I have seen from Rich SM (because to deal with you too he must be in to S&M)
So might as well give him unconditional support in his efforts.
Or is unconditional supprot not OK unless it is for a group that has spent huge amounts of effort trying to stop war crime inspections.
Justin well done great interview. what a lead in to the obviously uncontrolled racism that is so prevailent on your threads so often.
well done way to have a blog.
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#233
"meanwhile another victim of the war on drugs is locked up because of western bigotry "
Forgive me if I'm missing something but was she not smuggling drugs? and admitted to as much?
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Ref: 224. SaintOne
1) You wrote: "....is not as evenly spread as you make out."
Q/How 'evenly spread' did I make out - and how does that compare to what you say?
2)You wrote: "I'm not saying that the British or American ways are perfect, but the Iranian system can be subject to the abuse of one persons agenda."
Q/ How does the Iranian system's vulnerability to the abuse of one persons agenda compare to (a) British and (b)American?
I look forward to your answers.
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@robloop Rome's many achievements are still there for all to see and I don't know of any equivalent from Islam. Then, as the then Archbishop of Canterbury a few years ago told a gathering of Moslem clerics, over the last one thousand years Islam hadn't made even one contribution to scientific advancement.
rob, you need to get out more. The excellent wiki entries for the achievements of Islam in:
Mathematics
Astronomy
Architecture
Yours,
Pinko
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Hey Happylaze
Who's 'legion?'
Also, if you havent already seen it, take a look at #116, then #134, then #146. It's so funny thanks to John-in-Dublin.
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Oh sainted one;
"And for the record, I didn't pay tuition. I passed an entrance exam."
You got your money's worth...but not a penny more.
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189. Marbles
Well, that is sort of my point.
Yes, voters everywhere vote for what they believe to be in their own interests. There is little that outsiders can do to influence that election. But one worthwhile thing that Obama can do, and has done, is not to provide an easy punching bag, the way his predecessor did, for people who want to rail against America.
We have the same problem here from time to time, where various politicians seek election by setting up and then running against straw men - quite frequently American ones. The best thing that Obama can do is to take away that kind of easy target by being reasonable. Which he has done.
I do not speak of Obama being villified, rather the opposite. His predecessor was, for obvious reasons. It is much, much harder to paint President Obama as "The great satan".
Yes, there are plenty of news outlets in America (and elsewhere) that don't take a back seat to anyone in the villification of foreign leaders - or domestic ones. Hence the verb "to swift-boat".
I can't speak to persecution of this group or that group in Iran, or not. I just don't have the knowledge. But we regard holocaust denial as a hate crime, and for good reason. Here, there is no doubt. It has happened repeatedly. It has happened in international fora. We have all seen and heard the TV clips. It isn't a matter of "buddying-up" with anybody - the idea that engaging in holocaust denial is empty bombast, or is excusable as a way of being one of the boys, no, not so much. It's still an hate crime. The term "hate-monger" is not, therefore, inappropriate. And he's gleeful about it.
The present government of Iran is regarded as a supporter of and exporter of terrorism not merely by the United States but by many other countries. The prospect of Iran obtaining nuclear weapons is regarded as a serious danger not merely by Israel (explicit statements threatening to wipe Israel off the map) and America but also by many other countries, including many we regard as fairly level-headed, and including rather quietly, China.
To the extent that it can be said that there is ever international consensus on issues, this is one where there actually is a fair level of consensus. Of course it would be too much to hope that consensus on the diagnosis of an issue would lead to people speaking with a single, constructive voice to address the issue, or to hope that other countries might resist viewing this as an arbitrage opportunity, as Russia apparently does.
And, to other posters, I would be slow to conclude that apparent inaction is weakness. Sometimes wise policy takes time to formulate, and more time to execute. Sometimes wise policy is merely the avoidance of being drawn into ill-considered reactions.
And Obama has so much piled on his plate. It took Hercules a while to clean out the Augean stables, too.
One poster here keeps repeating that the US "hasn't won a war" since WWII. Well the US won the cold war, one of the greatest military victories of all time, largely by being patient and by avoiding letting it become a "hot" war. The cold war was fought on many fronts and in many ways. Avoiding another bloodbath on the north European plain wasn't weakness. It was heavily armed self-discipline.
In another context, Charles the Wise re-occupied 2/3 of his kingdom and stabilized its finances by proceeding bit-by-bit and avoiding open, large-scale battle with the English. He sized up France's overwhelming strategic advantage, and played to his own strengths, not to his opponent's strengths. Incremental. Not dramatic. Very successful.
There are fair sized lessons in these things.
Finally, like Guns, I will be taking a look at the books you have mentioned. Thank you for recommending them.
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1. You said "You will also find power is more evenly spread, unlike Britain and US which places more power in one person"
I put forward that the same is true of Iran, the surpreme leader has authority over most things, including state media, who can run for president etc. Power placed in one person.
2.a
The queen is a figure head and has kept out of politcs, unlike the supreme leader.
b. The president of America must pass things threough congress, the supreme leader does not (admitedly he is subject to the assembly of experts - but they are vetted by the council of guardians, of which the supreme elader selects half off - all very circular...)
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I don't buy this Islamic mathematics business. The contributions of persons such as the PersianOmar Khayyam to mathematics are well known to people interested in mathematics, but in what sense is it an Islamic achievement? The achievement was Khayyam's alone.
Do we call Newtonian physics "Christian" physics? Do we call relativity "Jewish" physics? (Well, the Nazis did.)
In the case of architecture, there is more of a connection to Islamic religion, but mainly because structures built for religious purposes tend to be the largest, and therefore the most interesting to most people.
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235 lol St yes she did and was. Now tell me why certain drugs that are less dangerous than others are illegal while very poisonous substances that kill so many a year like Alcohol are legal?
Why Hashish a cultural norm in much of the world (and many muslims in that group) is illegal because the West prefers to booze it.
why Opium is not available? WQhat is the medical and social problem with Heroin that is not caused by it's illegality?
Most drug laws implementation has less to do with medical evidence on the drugs effects. It was the race of the "users" .
Just in case you missed that little bit of double standards.
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richard SM I have a theory that MA Truepoo are the same person (and a couple others) that posts under different names. The big clue came when TT started talking about things that MA had given up on. The period of time that MA stopped posting comments on the Israel issue was when TT started up. they post never at the same time but read like the same person. Some say there are differences TT does not slag off europe insesently but occasionaly the fellow forgets what skin it is in and hey presto the wires get crossed in a very strange and suspicious way. I like you watch and forget much but have been following the emeergence and play between the two halves of the same brain.
There seem to have been a few attempts at other manifestations.
Hense the biblically correct use of the name Legion.
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st I also put the drug war thing in to see if the poodle would bark.. I think I can hear it now.
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#239
My current employer seems to think differently, but I will let him know that on good authority the rather unpleasant, sadistic, narrow-minded person on the internet thinks that my fortunate education at a well respected school is a farce. I will then give back my degree to the university, what were they thinking?!
Then I can finally revert to a life of bitterness posting on a blog, letting everyone know how much I hate people of a different faith, finally learning how violence solves everything. Gee Mr.MAII, I want to be just like you!
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interested
One poster here keeps repeating that the US "hasn't won a war" since WWII. Well the US won the cold war, one of the greatest military victories of all time
I 'll remind you that America did not WIN the cold war. Russia stopped.
That is not the same thing and as a result america is Bankrupt because of exactly the same war mongering policies we feared the USSR would get up to.
PS russia is still there.
And we are about to embark in following their example and start driving fiats;)
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#243
Don't you dare take my beer away from me!!!!
:P
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ref #216
No genocide is what is happening in Zimbawbre and the Sudan.
What is Israel supposed to do? Tolerate indiscriminate rockets attacks. Please don't give me the line if Israel movved back to 67 border(an unrealistic demand) that the bombing would stop.
With the exception of Egypt and Jordan none of Israel's neighbors have shown that they desire peace.
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gunsandreligion (#196), the Supreme Leader is appointed by the Assembly of Experts. It's easy to look this stuff up. Basically, Iran is an oligarchy.
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Gary -- it is a question of context. robloop said Islamic civilization had no achievements comparable to the achievements of, sat Roman civilization. So I linked to those wiki articles (a good read, BTW, if you have the time) which are about the achievements of Islam as a civilization:
In English we use the word Islam with two distinct meanings, and the distinction is often blurred and lost and gives rise to considerable confusion. In the one sense, Islam is the counterpart of Christianity; that is to say, a religion in the strict sense of the word: a system of belief and worship. In the other sense, Islam is the counterpart of Christendom; that is to say, a civilization shaped and defined by a religion, but containing many elements apart from and even hostile to that religion, yet arising within that civilization.
From the wiki.
Yours,
Pinko
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#249
What caused the most innocent deaths, the rockets coming from Palestine or the bombs dropped and bullets fired from the Israeli military?
Obviously Hamas (not Palestinians) should not be firing rockets at anyone, but Israel didn't give themselves much moral standing when they launched a full-scale assualt on what is mostly a civilian population.
Offer a two state solution, prepare to stop "natural growth", and maybe then consider a military attack if those rockets keep coming.
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249. At 4:21pm on 03 Jun 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #216
No genocide is what is happening in Zimbawbre and the Sudan."
No genocide is what is happening to the indian people's of central and South America, the Bushmen, the Mong, the Karens etc.
Christians are playing their full part as are communists, capitalits and rascists.
No race is being specifically wiped out in Zimbabwe or the Sudan.
A Dershovitz follower who doesn't understand what genocide is.
Hint the key is in the actual term - it does not mean mass murder or dictatorship.
"What is Israel supposed to do?"
Stop stealing land
Stop killing children
Stop forcing women to give birth at check points (peverted)
Stop denying people medical care
Stop trying to ethnic clease the west bank
Israel did this long before any rockets any intifada.
"Please don't give me the line if Israel movved back to 67 border(an unrealistic demand) that the bombing would stop."
Please do not tell us Israel wants peace. israel never has. it needs hatred and war to surive. How else would all its generals get their fat pensions and political careers.
"ith the exception of Egypt and Jordan none of Israel's neighbors have shown that they desire peace."
Egypt and Jordan were both bribed. Hopefully when these countries get democracy the peace treaties will be torn up and they can join in helping to pressure Israel into changing its constition and getting rid of its extreme far-right politcal clique.
Fortunately Israel islosing support every day, informal blockades are leading the way.
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chronophobe (#251) "In English we use the word Islam with two distinct meanings, ... "
What you mean "we" Kemo Sabe?
Islam is a Religion, which is a part of the culture of many parts of the world, each with their own culture extending back far before the introduction of Islam. The Persian culture, in particular, was a great one long before the introduction of Islam. If people are unfamiliar with Persian architecture, it is most likely because they have never been to Iran, whereas Roman arches were built all over Western Europe, and Rome is a common destination for vacationing westerners.
Robloop's comparing Rome to Islam in post #225 just doesn't make any sense.
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242. At 4:05pm on 03 Jun 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:
I don't buy this Islamic mathematics business. The contributions of persons such as the PersianOmar Khayyam to mathematics are well known to people interested in mathematics, but in what sense is it an Islamic achievement? The achievement was Khayyam's alone."
But you cannot understand Khayyam without understanding his culture and background. And that backgoround was Islamic
Are you saying Shakespeare would have penned exactly the same Julius Caesar if he was born in imperial CHina?
"Do we call Newtonian physics "Christian" physics? Do we call relativity "Jewish" physics? (Well, the Nazis did.)"
Newton would have called his achievements "christain" and he was educated in a christian environment.
You cannot detach the individual from their cultural heritage
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Oh, and as for Wikipedia, it's convenient, but I don't put much stock in it. Your link is a good example of why I don't. I always look for an authoritative source, as I did for Khayyam.
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money's worth...but not a penny more.
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240. At 3:46pm on 03 Jun 2009, Interestedforeigner wrote:
One poster here keeps repeating that the US "hasn't won a war" since WWII. Well the US won the cold war, one of the greatest military victories of all time, largely by being patient and by avoiding letting it become a "hot" war. The cold war was fought on many fronts and in many ways. Avoiding another bloodbath on the north European plain wasn't weakness. It was heavily armed self-discipline."
Rather under the impression that the US was not the only country involved in the Cold War. The prosperity of Germany and Polish nationalism also played a big role.
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243 lol St I wont but that same thought has occurred to many around the world as they grow what their family grew for years. and we tell them NO.
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That paragraph beginning "In English ..." seems to be a quote (although not identified as such) of Bernard Lewis. Here's a link to (rather lengthy) counterpoint to the opinions of Lewis, for the benefit of anyone who cares to look beyond Wikipedia for opinions: M. Shahid Alan
I'm not choosing sides between these two scholars, merely suggesting that there are (at least) two sides to the matter.
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256. At 4:59pm on 03 Jun 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:
Oh, and as for Wikipedia, it's convenient, but I don't put much stock in it. Your link is a good example of why I don't. I always look for an authoritative source, as I did for Khayyam.
gary you are a pompous twerp.
a pedantic and mostly got the wrong end of the stick twerp.
a condescending pedantic twerp.
To deny the mathematical principles that allowed the architecture to be achieved shows how little you understand the connection between architecture and mathematics. and there you are claiming your strong point is numbers.
You show yet again your amazing propensity to think your side is all right and mighty.
Just think of the fractal nature of those geometric designs they came up with.
Wiki is crap but most of the time your"links" show nothing but your biases.
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chronophobe;
you left out some of Islam's most significant accomplishments;
Military; Invention of the Suicide bomber
Legal; cutting off the hands of thieves, calling rape victims adulterers and stoning them to death, fatwas against heretics who ridicule or leave Islam justifying contract murder
Philosophy; justfying why it is criminal for Israelis to build houses on land they conquered but unimportant if Arab Sudanese murder 200,000 black Sudanese and drive two million more out of their homes to die in concentration camps.
How could you omit these triumphs for Islam?
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Gary ,
Why not do the right thing and attack Rob for a blatantly racist post.
No not you that would be out of character with all your other posts.
just start in on some oh so superior beings argument about how they have no contribution to math.
That is what you are arguing with incase you did not notice, the original comment from rob the "not" rascist that Islam has done nothing compared to Rome.
Keep missing
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I for one am not surprised to see the resurgence of anti-Semitism in Europe as evidenced by so many Europeans here, both those who still live in Europe and those who emigrated to the US. It is clear that one way or another they'd like to see Moslems finish off the job of eliminating the world's Jews Adolf Hitler started. This entirely justifies my contempt for Europe and my belief that America is not only at war with Europe but should wage it mercilessly. Cutting off all trade with Europe would be an excellent start.
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glad to see you r latest included some hints that the persians did so well.
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Simon21 (#255) "Are you saying Shakespeare would have penned exactly the same Julius Caesar if he was born in imperial China?"
No, I did not say that, and you know that I did not say that. Shakespeare's writings are English, and more specifically Elizabethan English. While there are a few lines here and there which are religious references, these are not Christian works. They are, most of all, Shakespeare's works.
Of course, this is art. Science is less influenced by culture than art. It does not appear that Khayyam was a devout person, and he would have made contributions to mathematics (and poetry) in any culture which afforded him access to the necessary education in mathematics and the opportunity to do the work.
As for Newton, what did he, in fact, call his achievements? He did write a bit on religious subjects, but Principia contains nothing of the sort. Claiming to know what Newton (or any historical figure) "would have called his achievements" is just rhetorical nonsense, pulled out of thin air. Have you communicated with Newton through a medium? How about finding an actual Newton quote from some authoritative source?
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Ref 242, Gary
"I don't buy this Islamic mathematics business. The contributions of persons such as the PersianOmar Khayyam to mathematics are well known to people interested in mathematics, but in what sense is it an Islamic achievement? The achievement was Khayyam's alone."
The significant achievements and contributions to civilization made by Arabs, Persians, Turks and other ethnic groups that comprise what we refer to as the Muslim world were, indeed, made possible by the efforts and intelligence of individuals, but they are influenced by the culture those individuals lived in. If we take credit for achievements in Christian nations, we should be prepared to concede the same for other cultures, including those we don't understand very well...
My point, in my earlier post on this topic was simply that while criticisms of other cultures are to be expected, and in some cases warranted, I don't think it is appropriate to suggest that all members of a religion or ethnic group are a bunch of idiots who never did anything for modern civilization.
BTW, I am an agnostic and I believe one of the greatest impediments to prosperity, peaceful coexistence, and a better understanding of other cultures is religion.
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Gary -- a good link to Shahid Alan, who does a job on the content of Lewis' analysis of Islamic civilisation.
But Shahid Alan doesn't question anywhere the notion that there was (and still is) such a thing as an Islamic civilization, which had a number of considerable achievements in fields such as mathematics and astronomy. And it was to demonstrate the difference between Islam narrowly defined as a religion, vs. the broader understanding of Islam as a civilization, which was the point of my posting that citation from Lewis.
Further, I don't understand why you would extrapolate from the existence of a plurality of opinions regarding the failure, or not, of Islam to advance, a proof of the poor quality of Wikipedia. Seems a bit sweeping, not to say harsh. If you have specific issues with the content of the entry on Islamic contributions to mathematics, why not make improvements?
Wikipedia is certainly not the last word, but it is often useful as a start.
Yours,
Pinko
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261. At 5:27pm on 03 Jun 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
chronophobe;
you left out some of Islam's most significant accomplishments;
Military; Invention of the Suicide bomber.
Christianity - invention of Zyklon B.
"Legal; cutting off the hands of thieves, calling rape victims adulterers and stoning them to death, fatwas against heretics who ridicule or leave Islam justifying contract murder"
Christianity; raping children into joining armies, cutting millions to death with machetes.
Using trees to launch informal executions throught the Southern US.
"Philosophy; justfying why it is criminal for Israelis to build houses on land they conquered but unimportant if Arab Sudanese murder 200,000 black Sudanese and drive two million more out of their homes to die in concentration camps.2
Philosophy: Anyone who is circumsised, disabled, gypsy, must be herded into camps and gassed, shot, starved and beaten to death.
How could you omit these triumphs for Islam?
Compared to Christianity Islam hasn't even got started.
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263... OH NOOO.... and here I was shopping for a new BMW...
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Here's a link to another take on Bernard Lewis, in case anyone might think that last linked article was a little too extreme: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0411.hirsh.html
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263. At 5:32pm on 03 Jun 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
I for one am not surprised to see the resurgence of anti-Semitism in Europe as evidenced by so many Europeans here, both those who still live in Europe and those who emigrated to the US. It is clear that one way or another they'd like to see Moslems finish off the job of eliminating the world's Jews Adolf Hitler started. This entirely justifies my contempt for Europe and my belief that America is not only at war with Europe but should wage it mercilessly. Cutting off all trade with Europe would be an excellent start."
I am not surprised to see the resurgence of the KKK in the US and the use of judicial murder to suppress the black population.
It is evidence that rascism is as American as apple pie and lynching.
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259. At 5:13pm on 03 Jun 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:
That paragraph beginning "In English ..." seems to be a quote (although not identified as such) of Bernard Lewis. Here's a link to (rather lengthy) counterpoint to the opinions of Lewis, for the benefit of anyone who cares to look beyond Wikipedia for opinions: M. Shahid Alan
I'm not choosing sides between these two scholars, merely suggesting that there are (at least) two sides to the matter."
No, all you have to know is Lewis' book "What went wrong" to know what a bigot he is.
I have read him and he is obsessed with Kenmal Attaturk (a neo-fascist dictator) and weirdly beleives that if a people denounce their own culture they will be better off.
He has been a laughing stock for some while.
But this debate is intersting. The Victorians held that if a "race" (koories, American nations, Bandanese, Irish, all Africans) did not make a sufficient contribution to "civilisation" (Western Christian and white) then they could be disposed of".
You seem to agree with this attitude.
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225. At 2:05pm on 03 Jun 2009, robloop wrote:
ref 179 chronophobe
My 181 and 183 were attempts to respond to you, but evidently my comments
about Islam, though factual, were considered by the mods as too blunt. So
now I'll choose my words."
Why not use intelligent ones?
"Rome's many achievements are still there for all to see and I don't know of any equivalent from Islam."
What I said about intelligence?
Isfahan, Cairo, Taj that's three off the cuff.
best not to comment about matters about which you know nothing.
Not even the simple fact that Rome was not a religion, and that Islam is.
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ref #263
Marcus you are so right. Just read the comments that are divorced from reality.
Oh Simon 21 killing whites is genocide that is what is happening by Mugabe is doing.
Part of it can be blamed on the proffesors in European academia for the social sciences that are true bigots.
We have it in the U.S with Chomsky, Churchill and Angela Davis.
Unbforutnatly tenure protects them when they should all be flipping burget or cleaning toliets.
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262. At 5:29pm on 03 Jun 2009, happylaze wrote:
"That is what you are arguing with incase you did not notice, the original comment from rob the "not" rascist that Islam has done nothing compared to Rome."
It is a false neo-nazi argument. Only Western civilisation matters. That which does not contribute is inferior and can be destroyed - blacks, jews, moslems, asians the usual victims.
And that is before one makes the relatively obvious point that Rome is not a religion, Islam is and that the definition of the "moslem" is about as valauble as the definition of the "jew" and just a profoundly rascist.
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251. At 4:31pm on 03 Jun 2009, chronophobe wrote:
Gary -
In English we use the word Islam with two distinct meanings, and the distinction is often blurred and lost and gives rise to considerable confusion. In the one sense, Islam is the counterpart of Christianity; that is to say, a religion in the strict sense of the word: a system of belief and worship. In the other sense, Islam is the counterpart of Christendom; that is to say, a civilization shaped and defined by a religion, but containing many elements apart from and even hostile to that religion, yet arising within that civilization."
Sorry but it is this confused thinking that lies at the heart of much Islamophobia nd rascism.
Islam means anything from the ME we do not like.
It is simply used as an excuse for rascism. All moslems are held to be resonsible for all other moslems. Though few christians own up to being responsible for Auschwitz or rwanda or Northern Ireland.
Suicide bombing (invented by the Tamil Tigers) is held to be particularly molem as if butchering children with machetes is a singular christian practice.
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For those interested in Islamic contributions to architecture, note that the Mughal ruler who built the Taj Mahal was Muslim, and it was built for his Muslim Persian (second) wife. The Muslim Moors built the Alhambra in Spain.
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#261
"you left out some of Islam's most significant accomplishments;
Military; Invention of the Suicide bomber."
You always come across as a big fan of the military Marcus, I thought you would be grateful for whoever invented it?
And I was of the belief that the "suicide bomber" was first "created" by the Tamil Tigers...
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# 227 TanSauNg wrote [in reply to mine of # 222]
"Having already established that KAS's telepathic abilities allow him to know what the rest of the world thinks of Obama, it's not unreasonable to assume that those same abilities allow him to know what the American people are thinking. Therefore, he is best placed to know when the honeymoon is coming to an end. After all, telepathy is far more accurate/reliable than such mundane tools as "opinion polls"."
I thought you might say that.
;-)
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# 232 SaintOne wrote [to Macho Autisticus II]
"And perhaps you could give me the address of your parents so I can write a letter on your behalf, demanding an apology for why they raised you to be such a donkey."
Saint, it is my fervent belief that you should immediately withdraw that unwarranted slur on the world's donkeys.
As any fule kno [sorry, that's a quote from Nigel Molesworth, not an attempt to emulate MagicKirin's spelling], donkeys are shy, humble, hard-working and lovable.
I think the word you were looking for was 'ass'?
Though, in the circumstances, I think the British spelling would be more appropriate.
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Ref 268. Simon21
Further inventions:
The Atomic Bomb
Thalidomide
Ku Klux Klan
Electric Chair
Cluster bombs US Patent 4724766
Stock market crash
Obesity
Cruise missile
USAF Helicopter Ejector Seat.
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265. At 5:47pm on 03 Jun 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:
Simon21 (#255) "Are you saying Shakespeare would have penned exactly the same Julius Caesar if he was born in imperial China?"
No, I did not say that, and you know that I did not say that. Shakespeare's writings are English, and more specifically Elizabethan English. While there are a few lines here and there which are religious references, these are not Christian works. They are, most of all, Shakespeare's works."
Are you being serious. Have you read Shakespeare. Are you really trying to say any english writer of the 17th century was not soaked in Chrisitianity?
You are aware christian attendance was compulsory at this time?
You are aware that the Merchant of Venice was largely intended to be funny.
Shakespeare's whole outlook is a christian one.
"Of course, this is art. Science is less influenced by culture than art. It does not appear that Khayyam was a devout person, and he would have made contributions to mathematics (and poetry) in any culture which afforded him access to the necessary education in mathematics and the opportunity to do the work."
But he was and remained a moslem and moslem scholarship was the bedrock of his knowledge - you cannot remove him from his culture.
You cannot see earlier centuries as simple pale imitations of this one. Faith and beleif were far more pervasive and backed up with law.
"As for Newton, what did he, in fact, call his achievements? He did write a bit on religious subjects, but Principia contains nothing of the sort. Claiming to know what Newton (or any historical figure) "would have called his achievements" is just rhetorical nonsense, pulled out of thin air. Have you communicated with Newton through a medium? How about finding an actual Newton quote from some authoritative source?"
A toughie. Well he could not have gone to University without subscribing to the tenets of the Church of England could he. He could not have become master of the Mint and lived on a government salary without agreeing to the 39 articles.
He could not have published or been employed without agreeing to the protestant settlement.
These are simple facts of life in the seventeenth or eighteenth century. Christianity was all pervasive. And in Newton's case protestant christianity.
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274 - I had to laugh at the irony of your attack on our professors- a word you can not even spell!!!
I'd ask for a source on your assertion that all our professors are bigots, but all of us with 2 brain cells to rub together know there is no point, although another laugh like that provided by your 111 wouldn't go amiss...
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274. At 6:22pm on 03 Jun 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #263
Marcus you are so right. Just read the comments that are divorced from reality.
Oh Simon 21 killing whites is genocide that is what is happening by Mugabe is doing."
Oh so in this context the US police are committing genocide by largely shooting blacks.
Wow you live in a country comitting "genocide".
I thought Mugabe expelled white farmers for their land, he did not massacre them for being white.
He did masscare a number of blacks,.
You had better not say this at Yad vashem. You will be told to learn what you are talking about.
"Part of it can be blamed on the proffesors in European academia for the social sciences that are true bigots.
We have it in the U.S with Chomsky, Churchill and Angela Davis.
Unbforutnatly tenure protects them when they should all be flipping burget or cleaning toliets."
Along with the inferior races eh. Maybe they could scrub the streets with the police paoiting their guns at them?
Flipping burgers and cleaning toilets, only fir for inferiors.
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Chronophobe (#267), I agree that Wikipedia is usefule as a starting point. For me, that's all it is. I don't link to it, because it seems to me that implies an air of authority which is not deserved. When I follow a link to it, such as yours to Bernard Lewis, my thought is not "here's where I can find out who this person is," but "who is this person and where can I find about him"? Then I not merely read what Wikipedia says about him, I also look for things others have written about him. Hence, the two links I provided. Where history and politics are concerned, I don't rely on any one source of information, but try to read alternate viewpoints. As for contributing to Wikipedia, I would never do that. I do not embrace the "wiki" concept. I think encyclopaedias should be written by experts, selected by expert editors, who stand behind the work as a whole. Britannica I would link to, but it's a subscription site.
By the way, I am not "advancing a proof" about Wikipedia, merely giving an opinion. As for "sweeping," I am not saying every, or even most, entries in Wikipedia are not accurate and fair. In a good encyclopedia, all should be, and I don't believe this is the case. It's just my opinion.
I suppose my objection is not so much the idea of Islamic "culture" (I would not use "civilization"), as with applying it to mathematics. Mathematics is a culture all by itself. A better example than Khayyam, perhaps, is Ramanujan, an Indian. He had very little formal mathematical training, just enough to understand the culture of mathematics. From this limited foundation, he independently developed many known theorems of mathematics, and made many original discoveries, inventing his own notation for the purpose when necessary. He was a devout Hindu, but his work was not "Hindi mathematics." It was Ramanujan's mathematics. If anything, his Hindu culture held him back. It was necessary for him to go to England to develop his ideas under the sponsorship of Hardy.
Most religions have inhibited the cause of science rather than encouraged it, in my opinion. Certainly the Roman Catholic Church inhibited Galileo.
By the way, I made a typo. The correct name is M. Shahid Alam.
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Simon21 (#272) "You seem to agree with this attitude."
No, I do not. Where, exactly, do you get that idea?
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210, Via-Media.
"An article I read not that long ago suggested that we might benefit by viewing Iranian leadership more as an oligarchy, in some part elected, with shifting power bases and varying popular support. Would this be a fair estimation."
This is inline with my thinking.
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278 Saint:
Pedestrian suicide bombers appeared at least as early as the Algerian War, where the first two attacks were on a soda fountain and at a dance hall, both in Algiers, where several dozen (as many as 300 injured??) teenagers were killed.
Deliberate suicide attacks obviously pre-dated this, given the heavenly wind campaign of the Japanese in the Pacific.
Others may know of still earlier attacks.
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273. Simon.
How about the Alhambra?
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240, interested.
"Finally, like Guns, I will be taking a look at the books you have mentioned. Thank you for recommending them."
Best of all, in addition to the insight into the areas, they are teribly funny.
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#280
My sincerest apologies to Donkey-kind! Ass was the word I was aiming for, but I was not sure how well that would go down with the moderators. Sometimes they let them slide and sometimes they don't.
Therefore, with much haste, I replace the word "donkey" with "ass/arse".
I can only hope I have not damaged our relations with donkeys by placing them in the same category as this "axis of evil". I hope they do not throw their donkey/horse shoes at me, they would hurt a lot more than leather ones I think!
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254, Gary.
"If people are unfamiliar with Persian architecture, it is most likely because they have never been to Iran,..."
Add to that the Taj Mahal and the pink and white sandtone mosque in Lahore. Both were built by Persian architects.
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132. Richard_SM,
When you make serious allegations of people lying you should at least be responsible enough to produce what you think is evidence of the "lies." I doubt that anyone is impressed by your childish rants here.
179. chronophobe wrote:
The civilization you seem to despise is far more diverse and complex than you think. The fanatics of today are at a distant remove from the mainstream religious practices and beliefs of the golden era.
Small comfort.
189. allmymarbles wrote:
but have the Iranians persecuted their Jews? No.
The their Jews bit is quite revealing. Much like the architects of apartheid used to talk about their blacks. I guess you wouldn't mind being a Jew in Iran then:
*Be forced to send your children to school on the Sabbath.
*Be able vote for a Muslim in the knowledge that a Muslim cannot vote for a Jew.
*Face the prospect of imprisonment or worse for fostering immigration to Israel.
*Face the prospect of one member of your family inheriting all the family's wealth if he converts to Islam.
Yes, isn't life grand as a dhimmi of the Jewish faith in Iran.
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#288
Thank you for setting me straight on that - I thought I read it was the Tamil tigers in the news.
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255, Simon.
"But you cannot understand Khayyam without understanding his culture and background. And that backgoround was Islamic"
Islamic or Persian? Avicenna (Abu Sina) was a famous physician and his work was referred to for centuries. He was also Persian. When the Moslems invaded Iran, they invaded a superior culture. That was much of the reason for the schism in Islam when the Persians became Shia. They also produced the Sufis, a group more mystical than the fundamentalist Sunnis. Interesting also is that the caliphate in Baghdad (Haroon al-Racheed) adopted Persian dress.
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257. Simon.
Well, fair enough.
At the critical time, from 1945 onward, though, the US carried the load for almost everybody, and containment was predicated on American military capability. America held that ring for 44 years, and established the circumstances in which the cold war could come to an end without open warfare in Europe. Yes, there was more help as time moved on, and nobody should be short changed in terms of recognition of their efforts (well, alright, I'll make an exception for the French, but that's just for old time's sake). Still, overall not a bad achievement.
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I will let Aldous Huxley have the last word on Shakespeare and Religion.
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ref #284
We have it in the U.S with Chomsky, Churchill and Angela Davis.
Unbforutnatly tenure protects them when they should all be flipping burget or cleaning toliets."
Along with the inferior races eh. Maybe they could scrub the streets with the police paoiting their guns at them?
Flipping burgers and cleaning toilets, only fir for inferiors.
Since two of the three are white males where is the racism Simon 21? I am saying these are jobs more in line with what they have earned.
They do not deserve to have fat salries when they are 3 of the biggest racists in the U.S
I suggest you read Horwitz book on the 10 worst professors in the U.S
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# 263 Macho Autisticus II wrote:
"I for one am not surprised to see the resurgence of anti-Semitism in Europe as evidenced by so many Europeans here, both those who still live in Europe and those who emigrated to the US. It is clear that one way or another they'd like to see Moslems finish off the job of eliminating the world's Jews Adolf Hitler started."
You really are a sad, strange, deluded creature. This is pretty low even by your standards - the old 'anyone who dares question the policies of the current Israeli government is a Nazi who favours the Final Solution.' Which presumably includes considerable numbers of Jews and Israelis. Fortunately the US electorate had the good sense to reject 8 years of Bush/Cheney - a regime which, compared to your right wing rantings and ravings, looks positively liberal.
"This entirely justifies my contempt for Europe and my belief that America is not only at war with Europe but should wage it mercilessly. Cutting off all trade with Europe would be an excellent start."
Maybe you should suggest that to your 'friend' Bill Gates?
Or have a word with President Obama. I'm sure that he agrees that cutting off a market of 730,000,000 is the ideal way to kick-start the US economy.
And sorry to disappoint, but America is not at war with Europe. It's just your brain that's at war with reality.
And surely even you can see the ludicrous and contradictory nature of declaring your loathing and contempt for 730m people - the inhabitants of a whole continent - because they're 'racist'.
Earth to Macho.....
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# 274 MagicKirin wrote:
"ref #263/Marcus you are so right."
Comment is almost superfluous. Soulmates - I hope you'll be very happy together. [If he'd said "Marcus you are so right-wing" - who could argue?]
Of course, what he's agreeing with is Macho Autisticus' old despicable 'anyone who dares question Israel is a Nazi' - not the first time for Magic with that one.
"Just read the comments that are divorced from reality."
Macho Autisticus doesn't need to read the comments that are divorced from reality. He's too busy writing them.
"Oh Simon 21 killing whites is genocide that is what is happening by Mugabe is doing."
I've had a go at translating this into English. Firstly "killing whites is genocide". Well, the words Freudian and Slip do spring to mind. No Magic, while there are many definitions of genocide, 'killing whites' is not one. A rough one would be "the extermination of racial and national groups" [from the Nuremburg Trials]. They don't have to be white. Mugabe is doubtless a vile mass-murderer, but most of his victims are black Africans.
"Part of it can be blamed on the proffesors [sic] in European academia for the social sciences that are true bigots./We have it in the U.S with Chomsky, Churchill and Angela Davis./Unbforutnatly [sic] tenure protects them when they should all be flipping burget [sic] or cleaning toliets [sic]."
Indeed - I'm sure Mugabe is entirely inspired by US academics.
And Magic, Magic, Magic - when will you ever learn? You of all people REALLY don't want to start laying down the law about academic standards.
Peeple maay knot bee abel two tayke yu seriarsly.......
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A few minutes ago, before they cleared #298, it read "MagicKirin; This comment is awaiting moderation"
I just couldn't help thinking that, if anyone is awaiting moderation in a comment from MagicKirin [or indeed Macho Autisticus II, or some others I can think of] - well, I'd advise them not to hold their breath.....
[Well - possibly an extremely moderate ability to spell....]
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#84,
#78,
The Iranians (and the Muslim world in general) will only see Obamas soft, reconciliatory tone as a sign of Western weakness.
I'm not interest in those middle-east thing. But I think this idea is very interesting.
In an Asia people's view: Bush, get a big treasure from Clinton.
Very very rich! Economy increasing and positive budget.
Very very strong! Powerful army and widely ally.
Very very respect! At last in my country, actually we very respect US government in that time.
What Obama get?
Not very rich-(if didn't say it poor.) Economy crisis and huge negative budget. GM is down.
Not very strong-(if didn't say it is at weak time.) Two wars is still continues waste the energy of US army. World widely anti force. Not so strong ally.
Not very respect-(if didn't say dislike.) In my hometown, people laugh at US from heart.
So, how could Obama show tough to other players? Haven't you see NK become tough in the end of Bush Administration because NK know Bush didn't have the enough power to invade him any more? And Iran become tough in the nearly same time. So was the other similar things in South American.
We laugh NK, because he always threaten a war but actually don't have any chance to win the war. NK knows that himself, and don't do anything except show tough, bark , and fight war in verb.
So do you wish Obama show tough just as NK?
Obama's US isn't as strong as Bush's US is because the real power. Not the tone of the president.
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in Ref. to 220:
"What about Hamas? They have been democratically elected. Or do you practice 'selective democracy?'"
No, I don't practice anything of the sort. However, I believe that elections have consequences. If you have read my previous posts on this subject you would know that I see Hamas as a separate government from Fatah that is governing Gaza as its own state. Diplomacy of this sort is far more likely to succeed between 2 delegations than between three or more; examples for this would include the relative success of the two treaties I mentioned in my previous post versus the result of negotiations after WWI. It is time that we stop thinking of Gaza as part of Palestine because the election and take over by Hamas was a defacto overthrow of the Palestinian government. There are 3 states now that will require 2 separate peace deals; naturally, Fatah, the governing organization that we all have been negotiating with for decades, is much closer and more open to a break through in Diplomacy then Hamas, so I recommended talks between Israeli and Palestinian (Fatah) delegations.
In Ref. to posts from the 280s:
As for the scientific and cultural advances of the East versus the West, I would venture to say that without the preservation of written Roman and especially Greek knowledge by early Islamic scholars and medieval Catholic monks, the West would have almost certainly never experienced the Renaissance as we know it, if at all. After all, the barbarian ancestors of most of todays Europeans had virtually overwhelmed and wiped out the Gauls, the Romans, the Greeks, etc. and set back scientific knowledge for hundreds of years.
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Guns # 269
You could be fortunately suffering from an extracentstoryperception. Check your double postings!!!
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Ref 303, Bienvenue
"Diplomacy of this sort is far more likely to succeed between 2 delegations than between three or more"
Whether we like to admit it or not, Hamas was elected democratically by a substantial majority of the Palestinian people. Fatah lost. Negotiating with the losers because we don't like the winners, who happen to enjoy the full support of the Palestinian people, is meaningless. Hamas must be included in the dialogue and their grievances must be addressed. That doesn't mean Israel must agree to their demands, but ignoring a legitimate government and negotiating with an usurper is absurd and a sign of the arrogance and hypocrisy that pass nowadays for foreign policy.
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#263 " This entirely justifies my contempt for Europe and my belief that America is not only at war with Europe but should wage it mercilessly."
Considering america's ineptitude at war that's not really much of a threat.
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304, waterman, that's O.K., I want 2 BMWs.
Just to be sure, I put a tooth under my pillow. Too bad it wasn't mine.
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Ref # 293. TrueToo
I can prove that you lie very easily - and have done on many occasions. Two examples from the many I can remember. (1) Around New Year you lied about the number of rockets from Gaza. You couldn't back your claim up. I could. I gave you the BBC report. You sneered. I gave you the raw source: Israel's own 'Intelligence and Terrorism Center.' You collapsed.
(2) You lied about Israel's 'high standards' in human rights and fair treatment. You dismissed the evidence I provided by NGO's - so instead I gave it you from a source which took you back: a US Dept of State Report.
Other people have exposed your lies as well.
But when you are asked for links to sources to support your wild claims, you reply like this:
"I don't respond to interrogation. Where I get my information is none of your business."
(source TrueToo post #320).
So I have exposed your behaviour yet again. It's not difficult. I am thorough and honest. I can't help it. It's in my nature.
I am 100% certain about what I said. You tell lies.
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Addendum to my post #308 to TrueToo
I have also shown MarcusAurellius to lie many times. He got so desperate on a thread recently , he claimed the Iranians had murdered Roxana Saberi in the prison.
MagicKirin has been shown to make false claims which he can't support, the most recent example can be seen in post #116 above.
So that's all three of you consistently telling lies. Coincidently, you all support the Israeli Governments stance on Palestine. !!!
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Ref 303. BienvenueEnLouisiana
Interesting! What do you intend doing with the huge gas field on the Gaza coast?
If you advocate negotiations by political party, why not have talks between Hamas and Kadima ?
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Thanks, President Obama, for inspiring this thread.
FYI, folks:
Bin Laden issued a video today where he said the President is "sowing new seeds of hatred and revenge" against America by coming to the Middle East.
A sure sign that the President has got BL rattled: If Obama can give the Islamic world to a new understanding of America, take the Palestinian issue directly to MUSLIMS to help solve...I see a lot of birds being killed with one stone here...
Yeah, I know its been tried before, BUT not by a "minority" American President with the middle name of Hussein, who spent his early years living in a Muslim country, who has Muslim relatives...who is also brilliant. Wow...
I'd say the honeymoon has just begun...
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ref 305
Well first Abu Mazen is the legitimate President.
Now a rough analogy the Tamil Tigers had a much great claim representing their ethnic group than Hamas and yet the Sri Lankan goverment finally defeated them.
Hamas is far worse yet you would ask Israel to trust these murderers who should all be on trial for war crimes.
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KooKoo you are coocoo Hamas killed off Fatah where are you getting your news? Iran's leader denied the holocaust and is basically a nutjob.
You guys on must really hate the west.
And you guys should look beyond Fox news for information, Cuckoo cuckoo indeed, or as we say in the UK, as daft as a brush and the blind leadng the blind.
An opinion from the Western hemisphere.
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GandR# 307
You are probably correct but you are doing it again [ESP /ECSP ]in your simple reply without knowing it!!!
Recent experiences have shown us all that money, and attempting to obtain it too easily is the root of all evil, and to crown it all, eventually it gets on your nerves. Forget your indentured job circumstances, bite the bullet this one time and accept the advice directly from the horse's mouth.
Ignore the feeling, swim against the doubts, gum-shoe it down to the bookies and you could be able to afford a better mouth wash than the one you have been using recently, and noted on the blog.
I know all of the above does and doesn't make cents, but speculating can lead to accumulating. You know what simple outlay you can afford to miss.
A simple extraction from your wallet could bridge a whole gap, now present in your lifestyle.
wma.
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ref #311
ABC news had interviews with Arabs from several different countries. A lot of demands but no evidence that they are willing to make concessions.
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Ref 311. signseeker17
You've suddenly found the BBC site and made your first post with the latest news about Osama bin Laden. Amazing!
Your first sentence is incorrect. Bin Laden did NOT say Obama is "sowing new seeds of hatred and revenge" against America by coming to the Middle East.
Here's what he did say, after referring to the recent killing and bombing in the SWAT valley, which he says Obama ordered Pakistan to carry out which led to about one million refugees:
"...Obama and his administration have sown new seeds that will increase hatred and vengeance towards America. These seeds as are many as the number of refugees from Swat Valley and the tribal areas in north and south Waziristan, as well as the number of their sympathizers..."
His observation is correct. It's not about being "rattled" as you say. It's not because Obama is coming to the Middle East. It's because over one million people have become homeless and are now forced to live in tents.
Incidentally, it's not a video but an audio tape.
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Here's more of Osama bin Laden's tape addressed to America:
"I would like to address a few words to America. Some reasonable and just people in research centers there may deduce from this what leads people to fight America and take revenge upon it, while what I say is completely ignored by those agents of the large corporations in the White House. I say that the free men who carried out 9/11 had not tasted the bitterness of being driven from their homes and their lands, to be sheltered by tents and beg for food. But these 19 men heard that this oppression was the lot of their brothers in Palestine, at the hand of the Zionists, using American weapons. Therefore, they left their schools and their universities, at the first opportunity to support the oppressed over there, and to punish the oppressors in America. So how would they have acted if they had indeed suffered these catastrophes?"
He makes a good point. It demonstrates the importance of solving the problem of the 'Cuckoo in the nest' that arrived in Palestine.
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305 & 310:
I had no clue that there was oil in Gaza, so there is no use in thrusting that kind of accusation against me like I'm a carpet bagger. I said it once and I will say it again; Hamas is not operating like a political party loyal to the Palestinian Government. They are running Gaza as a government separate from the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and we shouldn't pretend they aren't. Anything less is like suggesting that the Confederate States of America wasn't a separate political entity from the Union. For the moment, the PA is more important, more stable, more willing to negotiate, and more likely to even answer the call for peace talks. So our energy should be in settling the disputes between the government in the West Bank and Israel first, then deal with Gaza and the Hamas government.
By focusing on this point, you have missed the most important part of my suggestion for diplomatic action. The ultimate point that yall should have gotten from my earlier post is not who is invited, but that the US should remember the successes of T.R. and Carter, and use them as a model. Yall have become so fixated on who has been more wronged or excluded or illegitimatized that yall not only fail to see any alternatives in diplomacy, but yall attack those who suggest them by suggesting that they harbor some ulterior motive. I can assure yall that I have considered many possibilities and I have concluded that the best way to get things done is to have peace talks in a secluded location in the US with nice weather and no media access, then not let them leave until some real and binding settlement is reached between the two groups-no matter how long it takes. All other details are a distraction.
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Reply to 154.
No I donot prefer status quo. But I also donot prefer unequal friendship if you can call it friendship at all. What I am trying to say, we Iranians do not want to stop our scientific progress inorder to become friends of America. We can not forget United States always till today has tried its best to stop us from being a free nation. We have not forgotten United States intense support for Saddam when he invaded our country. We have not forgotten Mossadeq and IranAir FL655. And certainly not the "axis of evil" when we helped Americans against their enemies.
Embassy hostage crisis happened when Iran did not have a government in place after a bloody revolution in which USA was siding with dictator of Iran. I do not condone it. I personally as an Iranian appologize to American public, but do not forget the circumstances around it, people were emotional and were thinking (maybe true) Americans are hatching another plot like the one in 1953 to topple the revolution from the same embassy as it had happened before. Also not forget the fact that nobody got hurt and it was very symbolic. Unlike American interventions in which usually as a matter of habbit and fact millions perish for the good of Americans.
Do not get me wrong but that is fact.
Who is going to gauratee that if we give up atomic program another Bush (III) will not attack us
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I just watched the video, above. I hadn't before because I though it might be more scripted politico-babble. I was wrong. Obama made a very interesting point about not equating Moslems, since they constitute a variety of cultures. He comment about Iran wanting wealth and a powerful position in the Middle East was correct. He also addressed the Iranian perception that they were being singled out. Although he would not go into specifics about Israel or Palestine,it was evident that he will pursue a solution - his solution. My only quarrel was his dedication to the war in Afghanistan, which is a huge mistake. The Taliban appears to be the dominant power. The best approach is to accept them and allow the region to become stable (after all, we supported the Taliban before, didn't we?).. That certainly would go a long way towards reducing terrorism. We can't win there anyway, and all we will succeed in doing is killing more innocent people.
All in all, I was impressed with his understanding of the Middle East and hope he is successful.
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re: 285 Gary,
Regarding the value of Wiki as a concept, I guess we'll just have to disagree on that. I contribute both money and effort to it, so I'm a believer.
Regarding Islam (in the civilizational sense) and mathematics, it is not so much a question of this civilization or that generating individual talent. It is a question of why an individual with such a talent finds a social environment where this talent is both cultivated and valued. To put it more directly, my point was to show that Islamic civilization was both capable and willing to cultivate such individuals.
Now, this seems like an obvious point, but some, like robloop in his posting, see Islam as a black hole of ignorance. My goal was to remind rob of the many contributions Islam has made to global knowledge and culture. And, further, to counter the notion that Islam the religion is fundamentally incapable of supporting a tolerant, learned, cultured civilization.
Yours,
Pinko
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If Muslims and Jews hated each other so much, there would be war in New York City and London, or is this rubbish just confined to Israel on the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea, bordered by Egypt on the west, Syria and Jordan on the east, and Lebanon on the north, and the Arabian and North African countries
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322, We should distinguish between Israel and Jews. There is certainly much Arab hatred towards Israel because they felt their land was stolen. Most non-Israeli Jews support Israel unconditionally and for this reason feel the same hatred. Jews lived in Arab lands in peace until the establishment of Israel. The problem is political and territorial.
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305. saintDominick,
As I've indicated before, since you are obviously passionate about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (passionately anti-Israel, that is) you should study up on it a bit otherwise you run the risk of making a fool of yourself. Hamas won local government elections in Gaza and parts of the West Bank. Fatah won presidential elections. Why do you imagine that Abbas is still president of the Palestinian Authority?
Here's a pro-Hamas site on the issue:
http://www.david-morrison.org.uk/palestine/hamas-wins-in-gaza.htm
So no, Hamas does not have the "full support of the Palestinian people." Although I concede that it is likely to gain in strength. It'll do that by being a touch more ruthless than Fatah and more unified and organised.
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308. Richard_SM,
Again, produce evidence of my "lies." Do you know what evidence consists of?
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237 chronophobe
You're getting out too much and reading the wrong stuff! As to Wiki, it contains extravagant Muslims claims that amount to erroneous nonsense. So much for "the excellent Wiki entries"!
Geometry was invented by the Greeks. So was trigonometry. Algebra was invented by a Persian named Muhammad ibn Muas al-Khwarizmi in late 800AD
- it is thought, and if so, he lived in a Persia by then ruled by the Muslims who invaded it. However, the existence of algebra can be traced back to ancient Babylon.
"The earliest person regarded as an astronomer, as opposed to a cult priest trying to impress the rubes by predicting eclipses, seasons and the like, was Thales of Miletus," a Greek who visited Babylon and Egypt round 600AD, and thus before Islam emerged from Saudi Arabia.
The Muslims did not invent architecture, the Greeks did. Further, Greek architect invented three orders of architecture; Doric, Ionic and Corinthian.
You should be more careful what you read and believe. From a Arab Muslim acquaintance I long ago heard these claims of who invented what, so took the trouble to find out.
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314, wma, inside every dark cloud is a silver filling. My dentist has passed
away and is now filling his last cavity, hence the need for doorknobs, string,
and a couple of shots of good whiskey.
Ever since the man above crowned his good with brotherhood, we have
had to brace ourselves for this inevitable downturn. Only those with
gumption will survive. The rest shall have to console their palates with
cheap spirits. Obama can slay his enemies with the jawbone of a Biden,
but the rest of us need to cap our losses and find our way home
by addressing the root of the problem.
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237 chronophobe - and others
Re this debate about who invented mathematics, consider this I found on Google:
"Different cultures have made their own forms of mathematics. The Mayans, Indians, Greeks, and Chinese all developed separate math systems. Our mathematics today comes mainly from ideas developed in ancient India and Greece. Algebra and other topics were taken from India to Arabia, where they were then transferred to Europe. Most of our geometry comes from the Greeks. Calculus was developed in Europe by Sir Isaac Newton".
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321 chronophobe
Please read my postings above. No doubt you have kindly intentions, but it is evident that you have been seriously misled, so stop flattering Islam about the supposedly intellectually superior human beings it produces. It doesn't and you're basing your opinions on erroneous information.
An expert on Islam, Dr Peter Hammond, upon whose head the government of Sudan has placed a price and order to shoot on sight, in his book, 'What Islam is not' (Adapted from his book, 'Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat?'), he says it is not a religion, and neither is it a cult, but in it fullest form a complete system of life. Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components.
The religious component, he says, is a beard for all of the other components.
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#316
Thanks for correcting my grave and unforgiveable errors. I'm terribly
sorry for not "reporting" accurately. But I still stand by my opinions.
Don't worry - I won't be back.
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317, Richard.
There is nothing to be gained in an Afghan war waged against a ravaged country of poor of tribes and shepherds. What Obama may be thinking is that if he makes friends with the rest of the Middle East, then the other nations of the area won't give a hoot about Afghanistan. He is only partly right. Iran is sure to be nervous with invaders on her eastern border and some of her tribes may involve themselves. I am thinking particularly of the Balluchi of the southeast who are very difficult to control (and always have been).
On the other hand, if he backs off from Afghanistan, Osama bin Laden and people like him will be deprived of their ammunition. It is sort of hard to promote terrorism if the hatred that created it has been defused.
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321, guns.
"...jawbone of a Biden..."
Grand expression. Actually I am quite taken with Joe Biden. Is is refreshing to have a politician who is not scripted. So he puts his foot in his mouth now and again. All normal people do. Is it possible that Joe Biden is both a politician and normal?
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332, Ms. Marbles, Biden is just a gift to late-night talk show hosts
and other comedians.
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333, guns.
Let them laugh. I don't think Biden is anyone's fool. His manner may be disarming, but I wuldn't be suprised if he was Obama's ace in the hole. They never fail to meet privately every day.
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318. At 01:03am on 04 Jun 2009, BienvenueEnLouisiana wrote:
305 & 310:
I had no clue that there was oil in Gaza, so there is no use in thrusting that kind of accusation against me like I'm a carpet bagger. I said it once and I will say it again; Hamas is not operating like a political party loyal to the Palestinian Government. They are running Gaza as a government separate from the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and we shouldn't pretend they aren't. Anything less is like suggesting that the Confederate States of America wasn't a separate political entity from the Union. For the moment, the PA is more important, more stable, more willing to negotiate, and more likely to even answer the call for peace talks. So our energy should be in settling the disputes between the government in the West Bank and Israel first, then deal with Gaza and the Hamas government."
Which ignores
1. Hamas was legally elected and Gaza contains over 1 million human beings. They cannot be iognored for reasons of simple humanity
2. The PA is weakening because its "talks" with israel have succeeded in accomplishing absolutely nothing.
Every time talks are held more land is taken, road blacks erected more houses demolished. many Palestinians are finally coming to realise that there is no point in talking to Israel unless the US is prepared to support them.
Hamas realised this some time ago.
You do not talk to your enemy until he agrees at least to maintain the status quo, not while he stealing more terroritory.
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324. At 03:17am on 04 Jun 2009, TrueToo wrote:
305. saintDominick,
As I've indicated before, since you are obviously passionate about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (passionately anti-Israel, that is) you should study up on it a bit otherwise you run the risk of making a fool of yourself. Hamas won local government elections in Gaza and parts of the West Bank. Fatah won presidential elections. Why do you imagine that Abbas is still president of the Palestinian Authority?"
And you might have something worthwhile to say if you could recoignise the Palestinians as human beings, just like you good white self.
But you have trouble with that, as an old member of the RSA you were brought up to distinguish between "races" so perhaps you cannot help it.
Anyway it undermines every comment you make on the issue.
Abbas is losing authority because it is clear talking to Israel achieves nothing. This is now admitted.
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312. At 11:03pm on 03 Jun 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
ref 305
"Now a rough analogy the Tamil Tigers had a much great claim representing their ethnic group than Hamas and yet the Sri Lankan goverment finally defeated them."
Have you had an education? Do you read boioks besides Dershovitz.
Do you think the Tamil Tigers are "finally defeated". Is that what you actually think?
Do you think the world is square?
"Hamas is far worse yet you would ask Israel to trust these murderers who should all be on trial for war crimes."
Like Ari Sharon? Oh dear one prays earnestly for his recovery,but not just yet.
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328. At 03:53am on 04 Jun 2009, robloop wrote:
237 chronophobe - and others
Re this debate about who invented mathematics, consider this I found on Google:
"Different cultures have made their own forms of mathematics. The Mayans, Indians, Greeks, and Chinese all developed separate math systems. Our mathematics today comes mainly from ideas developed in ancient India and Greece. Algebra and other topics were taken from India to Arabia, where they were then transferred to Europe. Most of our geometry comes from the Greeks. Calculus was developed in Europe by Sir Isaac Newton".
Whihc is why you should learn to read books then you would not make such a fool of yourself.
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ref #338
You have a real fetish for Deshorwitz.
I suggest you stop listing to propganda web sights like Al Jazeera.
The Tigers said themselves they lost the war, you might want to listen to real news.
In regard to Sharon he tried to make peace and Kadima party widthdrew from Gaza.
Palestinians don't want peace. It is un PC to say it but they would rather see their children starve.
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Ref 318. BienvenueEnLouisiana
So the missing factors for peace in the Middle East have been:
1) a secluded location in the US
2) nice weather
3) and no media access
Why has no one realised this before now?
And you recommmend that a vast number of the population are not represented in the peace talks.
It's so obvious, but it takes a genius to point it out. Could you turn your thoughts to climate change now?
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Ref 328 Roboloop
Your name is so appropriate. You go round in one.
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Allmymarbles
Agree entirely with your comments on Obama's speech. Agree entirely with your observations about Joe Biden. When you look at the whole of his speeches in context there's generally nothing wrong. The blame lies with the media - not Biden.
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I suspect many posting on this website are victims of the propaganda that is put out about Palestine in the mainstream media, particularly in USA. They are probably buying the Israeli line.
The Presidential term for Mahmoud Abbas came to an end in January. Supported by Israel, he refuses to hold elections.
Hamas is the ruling party of the democratically elected Palestinian legislature. Israel is deliberately stopping them convene because it has picked up a large number of the Hamas legislators and continues to hold them in detention.
The whole thing is being steered by Israel to create a continued stalemate.
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343 Richard_SM
You, having absolutely no ideas and minimal grey matter to offer, resorts to ridiculing a website name. Some brilliance! And now you're officially partnered with Simple Simon for making inane comments.
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ref #345
Hamas may be elected that does not mean Israel has to negoiate with terrorists who are war criminals bent on their destruction.
The Nazis were elected too Hamas is just as evil.
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323 Allmymarbles
You've made some interesting comments, among these: "There is certainly much Arab hatred towards Israel because they felt their land was stolen."
Worth noting is that Arabs never seem to recognize that they stole a lot of other people's land, not least that of the Byzantines, Persians, Jews, Egyptians, Carthaginians, Berbers, etc.
They invaded Spain in 711 AD and only in 1492 finally got ejected from what were by then small southern toe-holds. Now the more nutty Muslim extremists like Osama bin Laden express their belief that Spain is territory that belongs to Islam.
In conversation with Arabs from the Middle East I discovered deep-seated resentment toward Europe because of the Crusades, in the process failing to recognize that the Crusades were Europe's response to invasions by Arabs - and, of course, the Turks - but in effect, Islamic forces.
How does one deal with such a mindset?
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# 347 robloop complained that Richard_SM "resorts to ridiculing a website name"
And then wrote "And now you're officially partnered with Simple Simon"
Pot, kettle.....
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323. At 03:05am on 04 Jun 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
""322, We should distinguish between Israel and Jews. There is certainly much Arab hatred towards Israel because they felt their land was stolen. Most non-Israeli Jews support Israel unconditionally and for this reason feel the same hatred. Jews lived in Arab lands in peace until the establishment of Israel. The problem is political and territorial.""
+
Or maybe the powers-that-be do not want peace but want war.. think about it
war inna babylon
it sipple out deh
(i.e. slippery)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibZQaZ28Mwo
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338. At 09:20am on 04 Jun 2009, Simon21 wrote:
""Do you think the Tamil Tigers are "finally defeated". Is that what you actually think?
Do you think the world is square?""
+
Ssshh after 26 years of stupid war we don't want any other mindless idiots stepping into the empty void
such as unemployed soldiers gone mad, psycho killer socialist communist parties, greedy gangsters etc
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321. chronophobe
Having revealed to you in my 326 all that I did about algebra, geometry, astronomy, architecture, hopefully you will re-think your comment to Gary, i.e. "Regarding Islam (in the civilizational sense) and mathematics, it is not so much a question of this civilization or that generating individual talent. It is a question of why an individual with such a talent finds a social environment where this talent is both cultivated and valued. To put it more directly, my point was to show that Islamic civilization was both capable and willing to cultivate such individuals."
You are being misled, much the way I once was by hollow boasts based upon what turned out to be nothing more than erroneous information and chauvinistic attitudes.
And now you know that Islamic civilizations are less "capable and willing to cultivate such individuals" than you were led to believe, maybe your "believer" faith in Wiki will also experience a re-think.
Just today in his Middle East speech Barack Obama stated that Moslem communities had been "in the forefront" of innovation and advancement. In a contemporary context, from where did he get (or dream up) this information? Maybe his aids also consulted Wiki.
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"Of course, this is art. Science is less influenced by culture than art. It does not appear that Khayyam was a devout person, and he would have made contributions to mathematics (and poetry) in any culture which afforded him access to the necessary education in mathematics and the opportunity to do the work."
Which PILL is exactly what ISLAM DID.
Not the same people saying the world is flat and heretics say it is round.
Not the same that say the world is 3000 years old
but keep trying to prove you're not bigoted . cause I don't think you are , just a lot more ignorant than you claim.
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320. Marbles
That's largely what I was trying to tell you. I thought you had seen the interview.
He made lots of interesting - and clever - points.
He is moving the cornerstones of the debate, while completely changing its tone so that the US isn't a caricature. This works in so many ways.
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I watched Obama's speech live and I must say in contrast to Bush it was an excellent speech. Surely he is a learned man. He had done his homework meticulously. But all the rhetoric would be meaningless without action. He said we should not let history to hinder us in present. But I am an Iranian and history is very important for me. But out of respect for him, I let go of history and concentrate on present time (Ref: Posts 153, 319). And since he wanted us to have a dialogue with him, I listened to him, and now want him to listen to us. That is why I came to this place BBC, one the few only fair media left in the world.
He said what he wants from IRAN. Here is what an Iranian want from him=(seriously, Is he listening?)
1-United states must stop all acts of terror and support of terror agaist Iran. United states of America must end its funding and arming of terrorists like Jundallah against Iranian people.
2-United States must abide by Algeirs Accord, as once before another president of United states had given his words but the next presidents did not honor.
3-United States must treat Iran and Iranians as equal and respectable members of humand community and stop demonizing them. No Double Standards anymore.
4-United States must revoke all sanctions that are hurting civilian Iranians like sanctions against Iranian airliners, medical equipment, civilian goods etc.
5-United States must recognize the reality that America can not intimidate us by making alliances with terror groups of past and present and dictatorial regimes in the region inorder to subdue, threaten and scare us.
6-Just like Iran does not interfere with American research and progress in science and technology, United States must not interfere with ours.
7-United States must revoke the shamefull and black ban on Iranian Journalists representing Iranian media outlets and newspaper to come to United States for reporting news. If CNN can have representative in Tehran why cant Iranian TVs have representative in Washington DC?
8-United States must recognize that Iranian power and its role in global and regional politics is not going to go away but its going to increase with time. That is the wish of Iranian people.
9-Our resources are ours and we want to sell them in markets just like you sell your products. Free and fair trade. No stealing. Stealing is bad. Its very important for United States to realise that Stealing is no more acceptable. The age of Anglo-Iranian company is over.
10-Iranians have never had slaves and were never slaves themselves. We want to continue on that tradition.
11-United States must stop the media feeding frenzy against Iran, which is funded directly by United States government.
12-United States of America must stop hostile plans, covert and overt to conquer or creat division, haterd, civil war in Iran.
13-United States of America must stop its support for drug and narco warlords of Afghnistan who make the largest narcotic crops the humanity has ever seen in its history on the border of Iran and then smuggling the largest amounts of drugs in the world to Iran under the watchfull eyes of United States Armed Forces along with weapons and humans. It horrifying.
14-Since Mr. Obama is so good and true to his words, I trust him but after roughly 3.5 years I might not be able to trust Bush III, so we need a frame work to set in which United States suddenly does not become voilent again. I understand now that United States is at one of its weakest moments in its recent history something akin to Soviet Union in late 80's. Very unpopular and broke and bogged down in war. But I hope in best of intent for United States to recover so that the hungry and homeless in United States do not suffer but I also fear when that happens the tone of United States will change and will start start to talk down to us and threaten us with a nuclear strike on our cities just like when it used to do a few years from now. We want security Gaurantees. Only empty words will not do.
15-Please keep our account differnt than that of extremists like Taleban and Alqaeda. We are pretty much sane and know what we are doing. Taleban and Alqaeda have more hostile intent towards us, Shia Iranians than they have towards you, their old masters, trainers and financers.
16-Iran will give up its nuclear program immediately and verifiably as soon as United States gives up hers verifiably too. Its very simple we can not trust United States to have 26,000 warheads pointed at us while we are holding cucumbers. It is no good. Not fair. Its not that difficult our inspectors will verify you and your inspectors will verify us. Equality is the principle of freedom and we should trust it, though perhaps Iran has more to loose in the process even here because without nukes Iran can not stand a USA conventional attack, but hey, in the interest of the world we take our chances. And remember in the past 250 years we have not attacked any other state and no, we have never used nukes before.
17-As a founding member of United Nations, Iran wants to contribute to the world and protect the weak, and cherish life and make friends. We do not accept interference in that regard.
18-Iran today is on its path to become better, women in Iran today are more educated than men. More women are in university than men. Almost half of workforce is women. Iran is taking its rightful place in sci-tech comunity from nanotechnology to space Iran is advancing without any support and under severe sanctions. We hope United States to cherish this not to oppose it.
(Final Advice: Places like dictatorial Saudi and egypt are the places you want to change because that is where terrorism comes from. Iran can help but once before when we helped United States instead of Thanks branded us Axis of evil. But since that is now history we can help again if United States stop supporting terror against us.)
Have a good day.
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(I would not use "civilization"
then you are a total racist.
unless you are to say that NO civilisation has existed.
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"An expert on Islam, Dr Peter Hammond,"
Yes a real expert. Provided you are from the far right.
"n his book, 'What Islam is not' (Adapted from his book, 'Slavery,
Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat?'), he says it
is not a religion, and neither is it a cult, but in it fullest form a complete
system of life. Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, andmilitary components. The religious component, he says, is a beard for all of the other
components."
Which gibberish is enough to tell you why no one regards Dr Peter Hammond as an expert on Islam, and going by his writing, even English.
It is always dangerous to trust far-right bigots with anything to do with
semetic religions.
Their opinions are never worth having.
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353. At 1:34pm on 04 Jun 2009, robloop wrote:
"You are being misled, much the way I once was by hollow boasts based upon what turned out to be nothing more than erroneous information and chauvinistic attitudes."
Empty hyperbole from one whose views on women go beyond chauvinism.
And now you know that Islamic civilizations are less "capable and willing to cultivate such individuals" than you were led to believe, maybe your "believer" faith in Wiki will also experience a re-think."
A more asinine comment would be hard to beat. The triumphs of various Islamic societies are blindingly obvious to anyone who can read beyond extreme right-wing literature.
"Just today in his Middle East speech Barack Obama stated that Moslem communities had been "in the forefront" of innovation and advancement. In a contemporary context, from where did he get (or dream up) this information? Maybe his aids also consulted Wiki. "
No just facts but you have a problem with these as we know
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348. At 12:47pm on 04 Jun 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #345
Hamas may be elected that does not mean Israel has to negoiate with terrorists who are war criminals bent on their destruction."
Why should any Palestinian trust Israel?
"The Nazis were elected too Hamas is just as evil."
The Nazis were not elected cretin, do you not even know this?
Mind you you do not even know what genocide means apparently.
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308 this poster and the various agents of legion have lied consistently,they have been called and always stop posting when they are so backed up they can feel their own...
Hence the fredom discussion where apparently people would rather carry on doing the same thing with the same subject every week. So glad to see a less angry and better spelling poster get to these also proven racsists. every one of them.
This one always brays the most that it is innocent, that is it's job within legion.
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349. At 1:00pm on 04 Jun 2009, robloop wrote:
"Worth noting is that Arabs never seem to recognize that they stole a lot of other people's land, not least that of the Byzantines, Persians, Jews, Egyptians, Carthaginians, Berbers, etc. "
But they did not seek to remove the owners physically did they genius. They did not erect pseudo race-laws either did they? That's worth noting too
Unless you beleive they repopulated the whole of Middle East?
Mind you you probably do having been brought up in the society you were.
"They invaded Spain in 711 AD and only in 1492 finally got ejected from what were by then small southern toe-holds. Now the more nutty Muslim extremists like Osama bin Laden express their belief that Spain is territory that belongs to Islam."
So? Certain US christian fanatics think all Indians worship devils and must be converted in any way.
But tell us remind us what did the Reyes Catolicos do to their moslem and Jewish populations when they reconquered the land?
I am certain they tortured, burnt and expelled them as good christians.
"In conversation with Arabs from the Middle East I discovered deep-seated resentment toward Europe because of the Crusades."
No what you discovered was deep seated resentment towards you. People tend to be resentful of someone who tries to tell them they are inferior.
" in the process failing to recognize that the Crusades were Europe's response to invasions by Arabs - and, of course, the Turks - but in effect, Islamic forces."
Er how can I put this? Jrerusalem, Acre, Cairo are not in Europe. Look at a map.
And Constantinople was sacked even though it was a christian city.
This shows why you are in such a muddle.
"How does one deal with such a mindset?"
Well a good way is to try and learn something and not try to enter a conversation where one knows nothing of the topic.
Not being aware of whree Jerusalem even is, not to have heard of the sack of Constantinople while trying to talk to people about the crusades is not er wise.
I wish I had been there though, it must have been quite a comedy routine. I suppose your listeners thought you were doing a Monty Python Mr Gumby turn.
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345. At 11:10am on 04 Jun 2009, Richard_SM wrote:
The whole thing is being steered by Israel to create a continued stalemate."
Well said Israeli politicians have admitted this.
unfortunately the deeply corrupt, set of far right extremists who pass for Israel's government are incapable of offering anything else.
Which is why the country is in decline.
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"The Muslims did not invent architecture, the Greeks did." (robloop #326)
An absurd statement. Architecture is as old as humankind itself. Wherever people altered their surroundings to provide shelter, there was architecture.
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biggreenstorms (#357), You have made an assertion that Jundallah is supported by the United States, as if it were an established fact. I don't believe it, because it doesn't make any sense when considered in the context of American foreign policy (both covert and overt) in recent decades. This is a tiny band of malcontents, who obviously have no possibility of achieving their objectives, with or without US assistance. Why would the US care about them?
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robloop (#353) " ... In a contemporary context, from where did he get (or dream up) this information""
It is more clear to what he was referring from the entire paragraph, quoted here:
"But I also know that human progress cannot be denied. There need not be contradictions between development and tradition. Countries like Japan and South Korea grew their economies enormously while maintaining distinct cultures. The same is true for the astonishing progress within Muslim-majority countries from Kuala Lumpur to Dubai. In ancient times and in our times, Muslim communities have been at the forefront of innovation and education." (from Obama's June 3rd speech)
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Dear Gary_A_Hill #367.
I guess you should do more research on the matter but suffice to say this would not be the first time. After all Taleban (yesterdays heroic mujahideen fighting for freedom against Russians-By the way Russians used to call it terror) and Alqaeda were in entirety or partially made by United States against its mortal enemy. What makes you think USA will not use its old weapon against its mortal enemy of today.
Bother not, pal. Obama said history is history. Ok. What happened happened. lets move forward. Just stop supporting Jundallah please. Innocent people are being killed and terrorized in Iran. Thank You.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jundallah
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357. BGS
Thank you. Your viewpoint is not often seen in the postings here.
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I agree Iran is not a model democracy. But it is a democracy nontheless. No democratic gov. in the world is perfect. Domocratic gov. of australia newzealand canada uk=their parliaments make laws but it does not come to effect without queens signature much more power than supreme leader who is always on defensive. Queen according to law can claim any land and property as of hers without challenge ofcourse she does not in reality but the law is there, but in Iran there is no such law.
All i am saying, if Iran is left unto itself it will improve if you pick at it then it will take longer and at the end would not be your friend. and iran is no more insane than china, usa, france, england, russia, north korea, india and terror breeder pakistan. so iran also can nukes just like anyone else. israel has them too. who knows how many more have the capability. pakistan is at our boders and is disintegrating with anti shia taleban inside it, iran can not sleep at this time.
once you have nuke you are safe remember MAD? and nobody does you anything see NorthKorea, talk talk talk, what happened nothing. Russia opposed even the resolution.
I am for peace. But you can not trust anybody in Post-Bush era.
Iran was attacked with WMDs by Saddam, World was just watching then. That can not happen again.
More about Iranian version of democracy much better than allies of egypt and saudi and jordan and ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Government_structure_of_Persia.png
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Dear Interestedforeigner, #370
My pleasure, Just trying to put some reason into it. Humanity without reason is lost. After Bush we need to go to basics and learn from the begining.
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biggreenstorms (#369), it is well established that the US supported Afghanistani fighters against the Soviets, and has supported insurgent groups elsewhere, but it does not follow that the US is behind every insurgent group everywhere. The Iranian government would naturally blame the US. That's just politics. The truth on the question remains to be seen.
But I agree with you on this: "let's move forward". I don't support Jundallah (Army of God) anywhere, and I doubt the US does so in Iran.
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"But the Jundallah deny any link with either the US or the Pakistani government. Although they hold out little hope of their 16 members being freed" from the telegraph article linked in Gary's un bias post 367 .
Again you ability to see america through rose tinted glasses amazes.
Now Iran supports terrorists in the rest of the world but america couldn't.
That is A question If I were Obama I would ask of my staff under oath and recorded" Do we have any people paid to ferment troubles in Iran."
Like the muhajadihn the al Q the
http://www.globalissues.org/article/332/western-support-for-terrorism
not to mention the privately funded IRA.
now these were the types they preferred to the regimes they tried to destabilise
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/01/opinion/danc
http://wais.stanford.edu/USA/us_supportforladictators8303.html
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and I doubt the US does so in Iran.
WHY?
because america is so good?
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363 Simon21
From long experience it's evident you specialize in writing some astoundingly ignorant rubbish in response to an attempt at discussion.
"The Arabs did not remove the inhabitant physically," you say. Based upon what knowledge do you make such a brilliant statement? In fact, they often simply hacked off the inhabitants heads, so I guess you could say they removed the inhabitants physically.
Simon, your needle got stuck in the groove and wore out the record long ago. Try something original, by now it should be evident I'm not fazed one iota by your pathetic stereotypes and characterless political correctness. And then you cannot spell or express yourself really decently. Can we safely assume that you also operate in a fog?
Oh, and just by the way, your country went to Afghanistan to stop attacks on it. Try equating that with the Crusaders.
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I note that Justin began his interview with the suggestion that Obama should apologise to the Muslim world. That same suggestion was aired over and over on the World Service. And we had Robin Lustig posing the following question on his blog a while back: Will Obama get tough with Israel?
I have a question of my own:
When is the BBC going to begin to live up to the requirement of its Charter to be impartial?
Here's a related question:
Does nobody at the BBC understand that the BBC is required to bring us the news in a balanced fashion and not narrow it down to suit its bias?
BBC journalists have become campaigners for all the "in" causes. And their journalism is the poorer for it.
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376. At 6:53pm on 04 Jun 2009, robloop wrote:
363 Simon21
From long experience it's evident you specialize in writing some astoundingly ignorant rubbish in response to an attempt at discussion."
I am afraid it is difficult to discuss things with someone as stultifyingly ignorant as yourself.
To discuss one needs to have someone who knows the basic facts and you do not.
"The Arabs did not remove the inhabitant physically," you say. Based upon what knowledge do you make such a brilliant statement?"
Simple fact. Are you saying that 20,000 (very max) soldiers removed the millions of Egypt, Palestine, North Africa and Spain. How did they do this. With Ocean liners?
And then they repopulated the whole area. Wow very virile people, when did they get the time to conquer?
is that what you are saying?
In fact you have confused arab culture with the arabs themselves.
"In fact, they often simply hacked off the inhabitants heads, so I guess you could say they removed the inhabitants physically. "
20,000 people killed millions and then repopulated
Can you provide a single sane refrence for any of this? That they wiped out the whole of Palestine, North Africa, Iraq, Spain, Egypt? A bunch of nomads from Saudi Arabia?
This is an Afrikaaner and Zionist fantasy.
"Simon, your needle got stuck in the groove and wore out the record long ago. Try something original, by now it should be evident I'm not fazed one iota by your pathetic stereotypes and characterless political correctness."
I maintain it is your Boer heritage that means you cannot think clearly about other ethnic groups. You were raised to think of peoples as being arranged in some sort of order. Top comes the Volk and at the bottom the inferior races.
"Can we safely assume that you also operate in a fog?"
Better fog than racial fantasies eh.
Incidently do you beleive the Roman Legions annihlated everty native population and then repopulated each area they conquered.
The latter part sounds fun.
"Oh, and just by the way, your country went to Afghanistan to stop attacks on it. Try equating that with the Crusaders"
Gibberish
Found out where Jerusalem is yet? Keep looking.
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Dear Friends, just some stuff I thought you might like:
http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=34&Itemid=74&jumival=Seymour+Hersh&search=search&gclid=CLH83K6k8ZoCFRINDQodgg3fIg
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When I'm in a hurry it's a pleasure to find a whole bunch of comments by Happylaze and Simon21. Means I can scroll past the badly-written and mostly incomprehensible rubbish consisting of 90% hate-filled sneering and mockery and 10% debatable points.
When I have time and the inclination, I try to wade through some of the junk to find something to get a handle on. That isn't often.
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Simon 21, We'll just have to agree to disagree and move on with our lives.
Richard_SM, your post #342 is clever and shrewd in its simple message, but it is still an inaccurate representation of what I wrote. I will refrain from going any further so as to avoid the condescension and sarcasm that you frequently and skillfully employ in your words. I have nothing more to say to you.
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There's that canard again about the BBC Charter as relates to impartiality. The Charter says nothing about impartiality. It does say that the BBC "exists to serve the public interest," and "shall be indpendent in all matters concerning the content of its output, ...".
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nice one big green . remember the one above is deranged and only here as part of its therapy .
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Dear happylaze #383
Dont worry, The stars would not be bright if it were not for the darkness surrounding them!
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Every one is talking about history. Obama said move on. Because if we have to keep tally of who killed who then west will definitely loose as stastistically they have killed more in millions in their wars slave trades colonies etc. than the rest of humanity, but that is not the point Obama said move on. So move on. We are ready to forgive you if you stop killing. Thank you.
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380. At 8:03pm on 04 Jun 2009, TrueToo wrote:
When I'm in a hurry it's a pleasure to find a whole bunch of comments by Happylaze and Simon21. Means I can scroll past the badly-written and mostly incomprehensible rubbish consisting of 90% hate-filled sneering and mockery and 10% debatable points."
That's a relief. I would be very worried (pace Orwell) if you found my posts agreeable.
I would have to have several showers.
"When I have time and the inclination, I try to wade through some of the junk to find something to get a handle on. That isn't often."
Why not have a go at the Palestinians, blacks, women etc some of your favourite targets?
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robloop -- you astonish me. Listen to this, and chill, dude. Just a beautiful little example of innovation and advancement from a member of a modern muslim community.
bigreenstorms -- I am with you, my friend. Let the dialogue begin again ...
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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377. At 7:59pm on 04 Jun 2009, TrueToo wrote:
I note that Justin began his interview with the suggestion that Obama should apologise to the Muslim world. That same suggestion was aired over and over on the World Service. And we had Robin Lustig posing the following question on his blog a while back: Will Obama get tough with Israel?
I have a question of my own:
When is the BBC going to begin to live up to the requirement of its Charter to be impartial?
Most impartial news source in the world. That is why it is so popular and trusted globally.
Sorry just fact.
Here's a related question:
Does nobody at the BBC understand that the BBC is required to bring us the news in a balanced fashion and not narrow it down to suit its bias?"
No impartiality, not "balance". I and most non-peverted people are not very interested in hearing pedophiles "balancing" stories with their own comments and justifications. Ditto rapists etc.
You apparently differ.
"BBC journalists have become campaigners for all the "in" causes. And their journalism is the poorer for it."
"In" causes? Like way-out man. Are you a Woodstock refugee?
Love
peace
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387 chronophobe
Don't worry about my directness. No hostility intended toward you, but then, you're Canadian and don't quite understand!!! The fact, you're getting the wrong end of the stick from Wiki, all of which can be sorted out with a bit of research.
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372. BGS.
Well, I didn't say I agree with you.
The point is that one of the first steps in learning to get along with each other is to communicate. And if we don't hear other views - like yours - then we tend only to hear the sound in our own echo chamber.
Another point in learning to get along is to realize that the basic assumptions underlying our own views may not be shared by others. Your earlier posting was a big reminder of that. You see the world through a very different lens.
In any case, here's to better communication. Perhaps in time it may lead to better mutual understanding.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
382. Gary_A_Hill,
To be "independent" is surely not to be tied to one or more of a number of competing interests. That's impartiality. I'd like to know where in the BBC Charter it says, for example, that the BBC is obliged to support Labour over Tories, whether Labour is in or out of government.
bigreenstorms,
I find your comments interesting and informative. But you should understand that Iran is a terrorist state, backing terror against Israeli civilians in any way it can and of course, subjecting its own people to the terror of horrendous public executions for alleged crimes.
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lol big green as a drunken guy once said
"Than that which hath no foil to set it off."
" I'll so offend to make offence a skill"
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RE: #228 MAII
Q) Why do you think most of your prolific stories conclude or imply that we should bomb people and support the military?
A) it's the only thing that works
Maybe you should adopt this theme instead for all those that have family serving in the military...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIwgD4I5UtQ
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380 TrueToo
What you wrote here was just too true. Pathetic, too ignorant to recognize their own ignorance. Two chimps let loose on computers couldn't do worse.
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395. At 12:19pm on 05 Jun 2009, robloop wrote:
380 TrueToo
What you wrote here was just too true. Pathetic, too ignorant to recognize their own ignorance. Two chimps let loose on computers couldn't do worse."
As opposed to teh gibbering fool who commented on teh crusades without knowing what they were
Or where Jerusalem was.
COuld one look more stupid? Even as school howlers these set new standards.
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392. At 03:18am on 05 Jun 2009, TrueToo wrote:
"I find your comments interesting and informative."
You are incapable of being informed.
its a result of your far-right indoctrination as a child.
"But you should understand that Iran is a terrorist state, backing terror against Israeli civilians in any way it can and of course, subjecting its own people to the terror of horrendous public executions for alleged crimes"
As opposed to killing babies and children with fragmentation bombs for the crime of not being jewish or european.
That's terrorism for you.
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397 Simon21
Have you noticed that we mostly treat you very much like we do the backside of horse? In effect, we take no notice. So get a job or find something better to do than write absolute nonsense. Maybe study. Study would be good - not least into America's genocide against its native Indians, the wiping out of buffalo herds, its history of segregation, the killing of children in the womb (about 50 million now!), then its degeneration into political correctness cowardice and dishonesty, and with it the silencing of free speech through the effects of a lame-brained Hate-speech Bill. It should be fascinating. If you know anything about the fall of the Roman Empire, you might begin to get the picture.
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398. At 2:57pm on 05 Jun 2009, robloop wrote:
397 Simon21
Have you noticed that we mostly treat you very much like we do the backside of horse?"
Is that the royal we? Your views are not very popular are they?
They wouldn't be, only (phyically able, youngish) white, Western far-right males qualify.
And there are fewer and fewer of those.
In effect, we take no notice. So get a job or find something better to do than write absolute nonsense. Maybe study. Study would be good"
Yes you might find out where Jerusalem is. As I say what a complete howler. I understand your profound embarrasment.
Let's hope you never travel, god knows where you would end up.
"not least into America's genocide against its native Indians, the wiping out of buffalo herds, its history of segregation, the killing of children in the womb (about 50 million now!)"
More piffle? What have abortion rights go to do with genocide? Foetus' are not human much less an ethnic group.
Though you are right on the fate of the American nations. You might be intersted to know that the annihlation of the native peoples from the American continent (including South America) is considered comparable to the genocides of 1939-45.
We will of course never know precisely how many were wiped out.
But as I say you are correct to point it out. It was of course carried out by Christian fanatics.
"then its degeneration into political correctness cowardice and dishonesty, and with it the silencing of free speech through the effects of a lame-brained Hate-speech Bill."
Sorry more gibberish. Geniocide is slightly more important than right wing ranting rights.
"If you know anything about the fall of the Roman Empire, you might begin to get the picture."
Sorry, what has free speech to do with the fall of the Western Roman empire?
I have heard volcanoes, plague, lead poisoning, christianity blamed, but never speech.
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TruToo (#392), actually the "Agreement" (not the "Charter") does use the word "impartial." (The same link I provided will get you to the agreement as well as the charter.) It states that the BBC is to be impartial in news reporting and, in particular, in reporting on the Parliament. If the BBC actually reported on Parliament as if they represented one particular party, then you would have cause complaint, but that doesn't apply here. In your post #377 you referred to Mr. Webb's interview. His questions are not reporting, they are just an interview. The news is what is said in the interview, and if you hear or read the interview directly in its entirety, then there is no editor or reporter, hence no impartiality.
As for this blog, it is not news reporting; it is opinion based on news, hence not covered by the impartiality rule. If you don't like Mr. Webb's opinions, you can read those of another commentator. If, as you seem to believe, the BBC as a whole is biased in favor of the Labour Party, you may have a legitimate complaint, but this does not seem the proper forum in which to bring it. Doesn't the BBC Trust have a complaint department?
All this presupposes that you are a citizen of the UK. As an American, I don't care much one way or the other which way the BBC tilts on Labour, and I certainly don't care what an individual reporter says in an opinion piece. It's not my place to tell them how they should operate.
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