A quieter voice on the Obama speech
The loudest voices will have no trouble being heard on the Obama speech.
But this slightly quieter one (the perspective of those of any faith/opinion who are chucked in jail by any regime) - is interesting, I think.
UPDATE:
Also interesting to get a hostile perspective from the American left.
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what? NO s t !diplomacy is better than a bomb?
who would have thought it.
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It is interesting. Good observations, but what does Durkin recommend? Confronting Egypt on their own ground on these issues? Doing so from a stage in another predominately Muslim country? Avoiding these countries altogether and criticizing them from the outside?
Obama's purpose was to send a message which would improve relations between the US and Muslim nations, and he chose a stage in the Muslim nation with which we have the best relations from which to deliver it. This makes perfect sense to me. Naturally, he could not address every ill of concern to every western listener. The alternative would have been to stay outside and remain antagonistic relations with Muslim countries until they become more like the western democracies. This is not likely to happen. Obama's approach is a refreshing change, I think.
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Coming from the assassination of Sadat, I can't imagine why they are
attempting to suppress certain political groups.
Perhaps they are not ready for Democracy?
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Comparing a speech delivered by a thug to one delivered by the President of the United States is offensive to me. The former is a criminal intent on inflicting pain on anyone whose ideology, values, and interests does not conform with his medieval mentality, our President, regardless of what his detractors may say about him, is a principled man intent on finding solutions to the domestic and international problems that afflict us, and is trying to do it peacefully and respectfully.
One belongs in jail, the other deserves our support.
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Neil Durkin is a spokesman for Amnesty International. Here's a more positive reaction from another advocate for human rights, Arsalan Iftikhar.
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I brodly agree with Gary_A_Hill above. We have to deal with the world as it is. People are going to be unhappy on both sides. But I thought I was a brilliat speech. And the world can at least incrmentaly move forward rather than be stuck in the status quo, or travel headlong to oblivion sooner or later.
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Truth is any Arab claiming to be suspicious of Obama's speech is actually scared of what a renewed American/Arab relationship would mean; ..... the wind would be off their sail, won't it?
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IS it?
I suppose to those that are that far behind the game here.
Keep pulling the blinkers will come all the way off.
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"Also interesting to get a hostile perspective from the American left."
Justin, you do know that The Huffington Post isn't representative of all the "left" in America, just as Rush Limbaugh is not representative of all Republicans. There was discussion recently about generalisation, and you cannot take one person's blog entry and say that everyone left of centre, or even centre itself, subscribes to Peter Daou's opinion.
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How on Earth did Rush Limbaugh get himself appointed Pope of the Republican
party, anyway? By weight?
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Political left and right are relative terms, in the good ol usa their left starts roughly at the point our german cousins political party that invaded poland was and then turns sharply right and marches off into the distance shouting about flags, patriotism and "for us or against us" rhetoric. (and thats just those so called liberal lefty media types)
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Judging by the reaction to Pres. Obama's speech in Egypt I would say that I am cautiously optimistic and crossing my fingers. It was definitely an exercise in humbleness for the US and a call for everyone in to move beyond our petty grievances that have accumulated since marines first stepped foot on the shores of Tripoli in 1805.
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Easy to be a critic when they don't have the responsibility. Left and Right are selling things, radio shows, blogs, newsletters so whenever the profit motive is there you must consider the tone and wording. If there were an "Arab World" or "Muslim World" don't people think it would have some concensus by now? The world is changing in many places and that causes disruptions. We live in a time of change and also reflection, Communism failed but maybe Marx was right about Captialism. The President is attempting to provide some leadership in a frightened world. I don't see anyone else stepping forward.
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President Obama's speech did a lot more than put Muslim extremists on the defensive, it established a framework for what our foreign policy in the region is going to be in years to come.
Instead of expressions of unconditional support to Israel he voiced concern over the ongoing construction of settlements in Palestinian territories and the deplorable conditions the Palestinians live in, while upholding Israel's right to exist. In a way, he is forcing PM Netanyahu's hand.
I thought it was interesting that he avoided using the word terrorism and cheap shots such as Islamo-fascists, crusades, etc. Instead, he focused on the need to work together towards a better future, giving Muslims the recognition and respect they have been denied in recent years.
I also think that extending an olive branch to Iran in a forum like that was a great strategic move that puts the Ayatollahs in the same spot OBL is in.
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P. Daou (but to the corrupt regimes that dominate that region of the world, his oration means virtually nothing) is right. "Keynote speeches" are nice. Indeed Mr. Obama is a great orator. But for the Arab and Muslim people (not the autocratic regimes that rule most Arab and Muslim states) to really expect anything postive from the US, Mr. Obama ought to change his accurate, but nevertheless weird, idea about some of them (like for an example what he said about Hosni Mubarak being "a force for stability and good"...)
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This selection of opinions on obama's speech makes interesting reading. Mostly very positive, with no-one laughing at any perceived 'weakness'. The big stumbling block speaks loudly though. Israel apparently needs its illegal settlements to house its ever growing population. I believe there is a german term to describe this. Sickly ironic.
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#14, St. D, I'm with you on this one. We can be no greater friend
to Israel than by showing them where they have wandered off track,
and to facilitate negotiations between them and those of their
neighbors who genuinely desire peace.
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seanspa, what I find interesting about the Arab reaction to his speech is
the magnetic attraction to him that is pulling people to him. Charisma is
good for something after all.
Of course, if Justin is able to make him into a proper Quaker, then who knows?
Even the Russians may love us again.
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16, seanspa -
That was indeed a very interesting link. The rather matter-of-fact remark about the settlements was very telling. Does that mean if we start running out of room here, we can just go to Canada and take land and build cities on it?
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It was a good speech but will mean nothing unless it is backed up with deeds.
US foreign policy must deliver the aspirations of Obama's address or risk closing the slightly open fist of those it was aimed at.
Bin Laden's diatribe was nothing that wasn't expected and contained the usual nonsense although I agree with Justin that he may be rather vulnerable over changes in public opinion and the potential for change that the US now offers
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19, bere, we'll infiltrate. All we have to do is to give up Sam Adams and
switch to Molson's. In fact, considering that they actually have affordable
health care, I don't understand why this hasn't already happened.
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Obama proved that making speeches that say nothing but make people feel good is what he's best at. After all, that's how he got elected in the first place. All he left out were the words "I feel your pain." That was used by someone else already. about 8 1/2% of his time in office has elapsed and not one fact about the Middle East has changed unless you count the deterioration of the situation in Iraq. Next he goes to Germany. Now if he makes a speech there where he tells NATO that if the rest of the members don't start pulling their weight in Afghanistan, the US will pull out of NATO, that would be a speech worth taking note of. It's a speech that is long overdue.
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21, gunsandreligion -
I prefer Molson's anyway.
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#9 David_Cunard,
Justin did write 'a hostile perspective from the American Left' not 'the hostile perspective'. The use of the indefinite article made me assume that he wasn't claiming it was the only one.
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22. At 10:34pm on 04 Jun 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Obama proved that making speeches that say nothing but make people feel good is what he's best at."
Pretty good in a politician eh?
A democractic politician who cannot string words together is not much use.
"After all, that's how he got elected in the first place."
Well yes, of course it helped.
Are you saying he ought to have spoken badly?
Have you been at the bottle again?
"All he left out were the words "I feel your pain." That was used by someone else already. about 8 1/2% of his time in office has elapsed and not one fact about the Middle East has changed unless you count the deterioration of the situation in Iraq."
So you do not beleive israel has had an election? That was all some peculiar Zionist propaganda exercise? Odd I think Bini and Avi would disagree.
"Next he goes to Germany. Now if he makes a speech there where he tells NATO that if the rest of the members don't start pulling their weight in Afghanistan, the US will pull out of NATO, that would be a speech worth taking note of. It's a speech that is long overdue."
Who cares? Nato should have been wound up years ago.
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If President Obama wants less sound and more effect, he should start defending America's interests with a lot less talk and a lot more action. He should take Teddy Roosevelt's advice by walking softly and carrying a big stick...and wielding it when necessary. President Bush was doing fine until he started talking. Instead of sayin "mission accomplished" he should have actually finished accomplishing the mission. All these wasted negotiations yada yada yada are solving nothing. North Korea and Iran grow closer to having deliverable nuclear weapons while Obama talks about talking. What a useless president he'd been so far.
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Here are some problems with Obama speech and the Arab's reaction.
1. No mention of Sadat which would have been a way to encourage nations like Saudi Arabia to start peace talks with Israel.
2. Too much criticism of Israel.
3. No mention of the liberation of Iraq and earlier Kuwait.
4. No acknowledge by any Arab at least the exderpts I heard from NPR that they have to change their attitudes and make concessions as well.
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#24. GeorgetteHardy: "Justin did write 'a hostile perspective from the American Left' not 'the hostile perspective'. The use of the indefinite article made me assume that he wasn't claiming it was the only one."
Nice point but, had there been others, it is likely he would have provided the link/s as he is won't to do.
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President Obama dropped in passing the most powerful card he has on this issue. That the USA has 7 million muslim citizens. This was no doubt a revelation to his target audience and to the Hawks at home.
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I'm reading very interesting responses to The President 's speech, saying that it was a good speech but what is his/the u.s.' next move. My ? Is, what are the israelis and palestinians and other arabs going to do to move the process along? Do they really want us to hold their hands 'down the long and winding road' to the land of peace? If they don't want the u.s. to be the world police then they should start acting like it.
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#27
Given the history of Israel and the Jews both over the last 2000 years and during its last 61 years as a nation, there are no valid criticisms of it. Whatever it does or feels it must do to survive is justified. This is what happens when you try to push someone into a corner and try to kill them. Whatever recourse they take to continue living is warranted. Anything else is merely expression of hatred of Jews, contempt for their lives, anger that they finally have a country they can call home. I'd sooner go to war against Britain again than see the US try to push the Israelis around. We don't treat our friends that way.
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There's more than "a kernal of truth" in America's long-standing support for authoritarian regimes, not only in the M.E., but just about anywhere else around the world where they can find one. And Hussein Obama will undoubtedly continue to add prodigiously to that legacy, while spouting the same empty euphemisms about 'freedom' and 'democracy' as his predecessor. America itself is becoming more authoritarian by rhe day. Obama Copacabana pulled the wool over the eyes of a large part of the electorate last fall, but he won't be able to get away with it forever. Actions speak louder than words.
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Obama is a politician. After the death of an 23 year old American soldier, by a home grown Islamic convert. Who just returned from Yemen to do a murderous act here. Where is the outrage from the media, and president at this? Or from the Islamic world? None. Then the Obama administration lists all the locations of Americas nuclear program?? Incredible, then labels it no security risk!
I don't see any change in anything at this point. Maybe someone from the Islamic world should make a speech, besides Osama Bin Laden who is still out there. The factions in Gaza are still there Hezbollah, Hamas, Fatah, still playing the same, if not worse game. The Islamic world has to sort out itself. The west is a distraction to bury the problems there. Unite against the Common enemy(The West).
No while the speech may make you feel good, just like the campaign bumper stick Hope and Change. Then like this speech will fade away rather quickly with no plan. As far as the Russians, forget it. We just had a Nato exercise in an adjacent Georgia. How would England feel if the Russians conducted one in France? Or Mexico invited the Russians to have an exercise near the Texas border? Nothing has changed. Like the bumper stick on car, it will look good, make you feel good for awhile then fade. For lack of a real plan.
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Since the British govenment banned Mike Savage, and the Dutchman from the UK. Is Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and Louis Farrakan also banned? For they after all they said some pretty nasty remarks, about religion,race, and ethnicity. Or is there a program like this speech in effect to make you feel change and hope. When there is none. Just curious how the media is love with this Messiah. When everything else that happen around the world is omitted. Just like the words dictators, terrorism, and terrorist from Obama's speech. Sorry from America its all our fault!
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#4 "Comparing a speech delivered by a thug to one delivered by the President of the United States is offensive to me"
In the past there's frequently been little difference.
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"32. At 01:48am on 05 Jun 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
#27
Given the history of Israel and the Jews both over the last 2000 years and during its last 61 years as a nation, there are no valid criticisms of it. Whatever it does or feels it must do to survive is justified. This is what happens when you try to push someone into a corner and try to kill them. Whatever recourse they take to continue living is warranted. Anything else is merely expression of hatred of Jews, contempt for their lives, anger that they finally have a country they can call home. I'd sooner go to war against Britain again than see the US try to push the Israelis around. We don't treat our friends that way."
What about the Palestinian people?? Do you consider them humans also, or are they the sons of DOGS that they DO NOT deserve to be treated as humans? Is it because the Palestinian people DO NOT believe in TYPE OF GOD?? Is it because they were not born to your liking?? Or maybe because they are NOT the chosen sons of Your Brand of God??
How ignorant of you to ignore the right of the Palestinian people, in favour of your so-called Jewish friends. Why should the Palestinian people PAY THE FULL PRICE of what the Nazi, and yes most Europe and the ARABS had done to the Jews????
It is people like you who are blinded with hatred on all sides that actually hinders peace in the Middle East. Ignorance in our time and Age is NOT a forgivable SIN. Please EDUCATE yourself about the BLIGHT of the Palestinian people, and yes their history before taking UNEDUCATED sides!!!
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I sympathize with Daou and Durkin's concerns. I was particularly bothered by Obama's comments on the so-called "hijab" (I say so-called because the word does not literally mean head covering; it simply means a cover, or veil). Not because I disagree with him that women should have the right to wear head coverings, and that countries such as France and Turkey that restrict that right are wrong in doing so, but because I also believe that women should have the right *not* to, and that that is not a right recognized in much of the Muslim world. Speaking of the "right to wear the hijab" without speaking of the complementary right not to reinforces the stereotype, among both Westerners and traditionalist Muslims, that to be a good Muslim woman one must cover one's hair all the time, despite this not being taught anywhere in the Qur'an. Yes, American Muslim women should have the right to wear head coverings, but it is indicative, I think, that most do not, at least according to the statistics I've seen. Of course, many of the women who don't may not be observant, but I know personally observant Muslim women who choose not to wear "hijab," except during prayer (when the Qur'an does require the covering of the arms and hair). And yet, if you look at any publication by the American government on Muslims in the U.S. and almost always, women will have their heads covered. This is not representative, and it is not the exclusive image of Islam we should be presenting if we want more moderate voices in the religion to win out.
And, of course, there are, in many Muslim countries, far greater problems for women than social or legal pressure to dress a certain way, and Obama could have spoken to those as well. Nevertheless, what he did say on women's rights certainly was not bad, and I think that the kinds of qualms that Daou has with the speech, legitimate though they may be, shouldn't distract us from what was, overall, a far better speech and far better diplomacy than anything we saw in the White House in the past 8 years. Especially on the Arab-Israeli conflict, Obama struck almost exactly the right chord--a fact for which there is little better evidence than the angry reactions of extremists on both sides. Whether or not there will be progress there I don't know, but Obama has set the stage. As usual, Thomas Friedman hits the nail in the head, recounting a joke he told the president the day before the speech:
"There is this very pious Jew named Goldberg who always dreamed of winning the lottery. Every Sabbath, hed go to synagogue and pray: God, I have been such a pious Jew all my life. What would be so bad if I won the lottery? But the lottery would come and Goldberg wouldnt win. Week after week, Goldberg would pray to win the lottery, but the lottery would come and Goldberg wouldnt win. Finally, one Sabbath, Goldberg wails to the heavens and says: God, I have been so pious for so long, what do I have to do to win the lottery?
And the heavens parted and the voice of God came down: Goldberg, give me a chance! Buy a ticket!"
The moral, of course, is that in the Middle East, "Everyone wants peace, but nobody wants to buy a ticket." Many Arabs and Israelis are saying, in response to the speech, that we need actions, not words, but those actions are going to have to come from them as much as from Washington. The Palestinians need to stop supporting violent extremist actions that only serve to harden Israeli attitudes towards them, and the Israelis need to stop building on occupied land and acting like they can systematically deprive a people of democratic rights indefinitely. As Obama himself said, everyone knows what needs to happen, now it just needs to happen. I don't know if it will, but if it doesn't, I won't be putting the blame on Obama's doorstep.
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#38, nevinc, good point. Obama needs to put the load on the parties
to the conflict instead of carrying it himself, as many foolishly
expect him to do.
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Thank you, Mr Webb, for calling attention to the excellent points being made by Peter Daou on the Huffington Post.
Of course I agree with Mr Daou, especially in the matter of the pervasive culture of extreme violence that so many Muslims appear to still endorse against all kinds of vulnerable members of their own communities.
Yes, President Obama should have and could have spoken out much more forcefully against this pervasive culture of extreme violence. It is of course about urging Palestinians to stop shooting rockets at sleeping kids and blowing up old ladies on buses -- but it is also about not tormenting, torturing and even killing adolescents because "they may be gay"; about not treating women as chattel and sex slaves; about not using sexual violence as a form of state-sanctioned "criminal justice" and about not treating victims of sexual assaults as CRIMINALS.
Really, how compatible are Barack Hussein Obama's encomiums to Islam with societies that in 2009 still regard adultery and 'illicit sexual intimacy' as CAPITAL CRIMES? Or that define adultery as "being seen with a person not your husband" -- whose own philandering is, of course, amply safeguarded by the statutes enshrining polygamy?
President Obama's personal views on freedom to engage in intimate behaviour as an adult, with consenting adults, are widely known in the US and consistent with the beliefs and practices of most of his generation of educated and liberal-minded Americans. It is thus highly dissonant, to say the least, to hear him defend the hijab and the burka -- the full-body veil that walls off a woman from the world outside her private residence -- while blithely bypassing the matter of Islam's obsession with controlling human sexuality by applying violence at the whim of priest-judges who also in many parts of the Muslim world are themselves the executioners.
The role of the mullah, imam, mufti, ayatollah in Islam has no precedent, nor any equivalent, anywhere else in the world. Even in tribal cultures elsewhere, elders do not wield anything like the authority of Muslim religious leaders to intimidate broad segments of the population, by imposing and enforcing extremely narrow views about 'acceptable human behaviour' and then having the power to exact strict compliance (and terrify the general public) through lashings, canings, whippings, amputations of limbs, gang rapes even, prolonged imprisonment complete with torture and the ultimate deterrent itself: beheading.
The execution of yet another British martyr to Muslim excess just a few days ago did not only not earn a comment or lament from Mr Obama -- it was met with deafeningly shameful silence by virtually all Muslim clerics of any kind of international prominence.
Few it seems think the slaughter of an innocent foreigner captured by Muslims is even news anymore. And yet Mr Obama invokes the "holy Qu'ran" repeatedly in his Cairo speech, as if it were some kind of "gold standard of tolerance."
The Muslims historically tolerant of 'others'? What a lie! What a brazen equivalent to the denial of the Holocaust the same speaker then at length decries!
"Islam paving the way for the European Renaissance"? Another flat-out misstatement of history: one that I fear shall now find its way into my son's high school history books in California...
Mr Obama: would YOU wear a hijab every day of your life if a scary bunch of towering bullies were not forcing you to, with brainwashing, intimidation and other forms of abuse -- so they could then decree who gets to own your body after you are old enough to start bearing Muslim sons and equally unfree daughters?
This speech in Cairo, so profoundly flawed even while occasionally pretty (in the way Rudolph Valentino was pretty, in Hollywood's version of The Sheikh), is at best Barack Hussein Obama being most himself -- trying to be all things to all people -- or at worst Barack Hussein Obama, a powerful world leader, full of romanticised myths about "the glories of Islam" choosing to speak as if blind to the fact that the armies of Mohammed, and the states they created, enslaved more people than any other empire ever in history, and maintained a stranglehold on the lands they conquered through the indiscriminate use of extreme violence, applied in heavy doses to anyone who was the least bit assertive or free-thinking. And above all to women and children of the enslaved populations, who were treated first and foremost as playthings for sexual gratification; the females in particular harnessed into a system of captive, coercive procreation to give birth to new armies for Mohammed, and new wombs for breeding more armies.
Because Islam conquered so many lands, its secrets are few. Whitewashing what was done in the name of the "holy Qu'ran" and its expanding dominion is ridiculous.
Mr Obama asserts his obligation as POTUS "to prevent negative stereotypes of Islam." (This is a very interesting new addition to the list of duties of the US President.) He ought to begin by asserting human beings' right to know the full truth about the history of rule by Muslims. It is not to be found in the 1001 Nights, nor in the legends about Haroun al-Rashid.
The truth about Islam is found in the history of its treatment of women, infants, and children. No other religion has been as brutal, as uncompromising in its absolutely inexcusably vicious use of violence as a tool of totalitarian tyranny, and as a weapon of war. The fact that they also have pretty calligraphy does not make their victims' suffering any less profound.
Even just recently the BBC bothered to investigate allegations of vivisection of non-Muslim captives by Albanian Muslims in Kosovo, and found credible corroboration of such outrages. This in a zone under Nato control... What actually goes on where there are no outside enforcement authorities, or limited order, is what we occasionally catch glimpses of, in the beheadings of hostages, the stoning of rape victims, the rapes of teenage tourists... Or when something as obscene as Beslan unfolds.
And the testimony of a Spanish pilot flying in the area of the Air France tragedy over the Atlantic seems to suggest that, indeed, an act of terrorism ended the lives of airborne innocents yet again, in a blinding flash of light. If so, someone may have been seeking to upstage Obama as "spokesman for 21st century Islam" -- and it would be unconscionable to withhold or delay information about this tragedy so as not to allow its facts to overshadow the Cairo speech with its tinsel tributes to an Islam unlike any ever experienced by females or 'infidels'.
Obama's romanticised paean to Islamic "civilisation" is belied by its relentless insistence on cruelty. Nowhere in his speech did he suggest the culture of cruelty must be abandoned. The hijab is part of that cruelty.
And so is the attempt to rewrite history: to further humiliate and degrade victims by denying they ever suffered, by suggesting their descendants or supporters are delusional. Exactly the same rules apply, as with the Holocaust. End the lies.
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AT LAST A PRESIDENT WHO ACKNOWLEDGES THE GREAT INJUSTICE IN THE MIDDLE
EAST!!
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There is one thing I am going to say about President Obama's speach. I believe it is a positive start and it's a something that the previous administration would have NEVER done. Nor is it something that the REagan Administration NEVER would have done.
Here is the thing about the Middle East, that the United States needs to know. It can't go around acting as Isreals Lawyer. We have to look for ways to show all the people in the middle east that we are willing to work with them in an effort to bring about peace and Justice.
Having said that, there are elements both in America and the Middle East that do not want peace. Here in the States, those elements who don't want peace are mainly Evangelical Christians, who see Isreal as the central figure in the Beginning of the End of Times. They see the founding Isreal as the starting point for the end of the World. In fact, they help out Isreal in an effort to futher bring about the rapture. They have no interest in Isreal, otherwise. I think they have misread the bible, but that is a differant debate.
In the Middle East, it is groups like Al Quieda who don't want peace. In fact Bin Laden views the Election of Obama as a bad for Al Quieda. The reason for this is that it undermines their main recruiting argument that the United States is Racist. This undermines their recruitment efforts and frustrates them, which is a good thing.
Make no mistake, yesterdays speach was only a beginning. There is a lot of work to be done. This process will take years. Having said that, I am more optimistic about the process of peace in the Middle East today, than I have been at anytime in the last eight years.
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I'm curious as to what "actions" people think Obama should take when they say words mean nothing. Surely by making it clear what he wants and how things can be achieved, the ball is in other people's court now?
I also suspect he (Obama) has a bit of a waiting game, particularly with the Iranian elections coming up. If a reformist is elected I suspect dialogue will commence fairly quickly, sanctions removed etc. Not sure what would happen if the status quo remains..
I'm not sure the exact figures of aid that the US gives Israel, but would he reduce this if Israel don't stop pushing their boundaries? Could he just announce that he recognizes a Palestinian state from "here to here" and see what happens?
Surely the next step is to just wait and see if any other country steps up to play ball, and if not perhaps throwing a few ultimatums around?
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#43 Sportsfan
"I think they have misread the bible, but that is a differant debate."
Frankly, the same can be said of any vaguely religous conflict. The Jews think it is their divineabout the other people that live there, Muslim clerics of particularly nasty persuasions like to ignore parts of the Quran and include th ebits that achieve what they want.
Hell, my friend is a fundamentalist Christian and seems to think she should not drink alcohol because of her faith. Jesus turned water into wine for heavens sake!
Personally I would change every religous text to say the same thing:
Treat others (as in everyone of every race, religion, sexual persuasion, gender) how you would want to be treated
I think that covers everything worth covering.
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Re 45
I am well aware of the fact that clerics will pick and choose portions of religious text to suit their religious needs. I was simply trying to refer to specific groups with in this country who believe the end times are coming. There support of Isreal is based primarily on this belief and not on any strong desire to bring about religious tolerence. Sad but true.
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#46
I agree with you 100%. Shame everyone isn't bhuddist really. Those guys rock.
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ref #44
First there is already a Palestinian State in fact 2. Jordan and the disputed territories.
Second it was disgraceful that Obama showed a lack of respect and acknowledgement for Israels peace overtures and concessions.
It seems the only country Obama wants the U.S to dictate only to Israel.
To Israel: Build to your heart's content it's your country and the Palestinians do not deserve anything for their shamful conduct.
I sincerly hope the American people have realized the Obama mistake and we get rid of him in 3 years and 7 months.
Jimmy Carter 2
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#48
I would like to know why you think Israel has the right to build, expand and have a state?
Surely the Israeli's have killed more cilvilians in Gaza than Palestine have Israeli's? Surely that is as shameful as anything Palestine have done?
Why not live and let live?
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Re 44
What actions should Obama take? That's a good question. How about pressuring Isreal to stop expanding the settlements. Better yet, how bought withdrawing all foreign aid to Isreal if they insist on expanding their Settlements. Most Isreali's recognize the fact that there has to be a halt to the Settlements. Most Jews here in the United States oppose the expansion of Settlements. Unfortuanately part of the coalition government that rules Isreal includes religious groups who Want Expansion of the Settlements and Lekud has promised them they'll expand the settlements.
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#49
There is a saying in Israel which has become a cliche, but is true nonetheless.
'If the Arabs put down their weapons, there will be no more war. If the Jews put down their weapons, there will be no more Israel.'
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Murder is against the law. Robbery is against the law. And Jews arriving and building homes on the Palestinian peoples own land is against the law. It's theft - and generally accompanied by bullying and violence. Families are forced to abandon their homes due to the unchecked violence. Does Netanyahu expect people to adhere to the laws of his government? So why does he incite this theft and violence? Why does he incite this illegal extremism?
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Ref 43, American
"There is one thing I am going to say about President Obama's speach. I believe it is a positive start and it's a something that the previous administration would have NEVER done."
Actually, President George W. Bush delivered several speeches in which he stated that the USA is not at war with the Muslim world; the problem is that he had no credibility and nobody paid any attention to him. Sometimes, actions speak louder than words...
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Ref 49, SaintOne
No nation has the right to build settlements outside its established borders to accomodate the influx of migrants, and Israel is no exception to that rule. The decision, however, is influenced by more than demographic imperatives and also includes the need for barriers to prevent the creation of an independent Palestinian state, and a desire to expand its borders regardless of what the UN or anyone else has to say about it.
Obviously, no nation has the right to slaughter civilians the way Israel did in Lebanon and Gaza. They deserve the label rogue nation more than any other on planet Earth.
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Ref 48, Magic
"Second it was disgraceful that Obama showed a lack of respect and acknowledgement for Israels peace overtures and concessions."
President Obama reaffirmed Israel's right to exist during his speech in Cairo yesterday. Today he plans to visit Buchenwald to accentuate one of the main justifications for the creation of the state of Israel.
Israel's right to exist is not being challenged, what is being proposed is a solution that extends the same right to everyone else in that part of the world. Demanding recognition and respect while abusing those who can not defend themselves is a manifestation of arrogance and inhumanity with clear parallels to what happened to the Jewish people at the hands of "Christians" in years past.
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Ref 51. Scotch Git
Correction:
"If both sides put down their weapons they would have to negotiate a peace settlement as equals."
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#55
"Israel's right to exist is not being challenged, what is being proposed is a solution that extends the same right to everyone else in that part of the world."
Apparently that flies over peoples heads
#56
If only that would happen :(
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Ref 44, SaintOne
"I'm curious as to what "actions" people think Obama should take when they say words mean nothing."
Articulating his thoughts and establishing a dialogue conduvice to finding a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian impasse is a good start, but unless words are followed by actions and deeds they soon become irrelevant and forgotten.
There are some steps that any U.S. President could take to expedite a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, such as stopping all financial and military aid to Israel until the problem is solved, but that would make whomever proposes such approach a one-term President.
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When the state of Israel was created, it was drawn with borders that were virtually undefendable. This provoked 4 wars to destroy it, the fourth being fought to regain territory that finally made it defendable. During the last 40 years, those borders have now come to be populated by Jews and is a part of Israel. The Moslems and President Obama should resign themselves to it, it isn't going to change. The Isrealis will do whatever they have to not to return to those undefendable borders. Demands for their return are in effect just one more way on insisting Israel be destroyed. In that regard, President Obama is no better than Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Heaping all of the problems of the world on this issue is a candard. If Israel didn't exist, Shia would still fight Suni, the Taleban and al Qaeda would still try to take over Pakistan and Afghanistan, Iran would still try to control Lebanon through Hezbullah. Who is anyone kidding.
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ref #49 50, 52 and 54
Isreal won the 67 war in which they attacked.
The U.S never gave land back to Mexico after the Mexican war. The British fought Argentina in a short was over 2 little islands off the coast of South America.
Israel targets military and terrorist sights despite the lies of the U.N inspectors. Many who are guilty of colloboration.
But when did Obama urge any Arab nation to open up peace negoiations with Israel.
The Palestinians and Lebanese bear responsibility for the deaths on both sides.
Happy Birthday Israel
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This was one more of Pesident Obama's humiliating speeches apologizing for actions America should be proud of. Liberating the people of Afghanistan from the barbaric rule of al Qaeda and the Taleban. Liberating Iraq from the criminally insane regime of Saddam Hussein. Protecting Israel from being destroyed and taken over by its neighors. This is exactly analogous to the liberaton of France and Italy from Nazi Germany and protecting the independence of the UK during WWII. America has nothing to apologize to the Moslem world or anyone else for. The minor abuses of human rights and unintended deaths of non combatants that have been blow far out of proportion were infinitely fewer and far less extreme than in most wars. Those that were shown to have had criminal intent by individuals were prosecuted, something no other nation does.
The United States is more than exceptional, it is a civilization that is without equal and unique in all the world and in all of the world's history. There isn't now and never was anything like it and there may never be anywhere else. It is unlikely any other nation could copy it except in its most superficial aspects. Despite its setbacks, it blunders, seemingly impossible odds that threatened its very existance, it has perservered every time and grown stronger both absolutely and by comparison to other countries. It will again. It's unique construction and its history that lead the smartest and wisest men who ever conceived a government and a society in the way that they did is all it needed. 175 years of geographic remoteness from its adversaries and and a continent large territory of limitless bounty only put the icing on the cake. No other place on earth remains or has been so desirable a destination for people to relocate to and live their lives. It isn't utopia but it's the closest thing ever created on earth to it. That's what makes Europeans so jealous. They who thought they were everything turned out by comparison to be and have nothing. I've been there, seen it, breathed it, lived it, and grew to detest it. How nice it was to finally come home for good.
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Ref 60, Magic
"But when did Obama urge any Arab nation to open up peace negoiations with Israel."
Yesterday.
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MarcusLynchingsII
A History Not Known By Many
When I was a boy growing up in New Orleans, Louisiana, the word lynching was hardly ever mentioned. My parents only said these "mean" acts happened in the country (rural areas) with white men in white gowns (the KKK). In all my schooling, through high school and on to college, lynching was never part of a lecture or connected with American history. I knew of the word, lynching, but never, never the scope of this violent, hateful act.
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ref #49,52,56,57
The deaths in the Lebanese and Gaza conflicts are the faults of those countries and tehe terrorist they harbor.
It seems the no dictate to other countries you are all so fond of, does not apply to Israel.
The U.S is not giving up the southwest back to Mexico.
The situation is the same where was the challenge for the Arab nations like Saudi Arabia and theother gulf states to make peace with Israel.
Question forget the rhetoric: How can the Israelis trust the word of the Palestinians? Israel is the only one being asked to make sacrifices.
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# 61 Macho Autisticus II wrote:
Part 943 [approx] of his continuing rant re how Yanks are everything, Europeans are 'nothing', the USA is the greatest country on this or any other planet, they are the ubermensch and the rest of us are the untervolk, the empire will last a thousand years, yada yada, blah blah
"That's what makes Europeans so jealous. They who thought they were everything turned out by comparison to be and have nothing. I've been there, seen it, breathed it, lived it, and grew to detest it. How nice it was to finally come home for good."
Well - nice for you that you left.
VERY nice for the Europeans that you left.
Not so nice for the Americans.
It's really not hard to guess what happened. He went to Yerp. He told those he met that they were inferior. Amazingly enough, they disliked him. And he thought - 'But they can't dislike ME. I am superior. I am one of The Master Race. I am Macho Autisticus II.
It's not me they dislike - it must be all Americans....'
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# 62
Saint
Stop trying to confuse Magic with the facts!
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In case anyone is interested, this is the text of the speech, with analysis from the Beeb.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8082862.stm
It seems to me to be a calm and balanced speech.
Perhaps not surprising therefore that the excitable and unbalanced, the magical and the macho, wouldn't take to it.....
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"Personally I would change every religous text to say the same thing:"
"Treat others (as in everyone of every race, religion, sexual persuasion, gender) how you would want to be treated"
Most religions and philosophies already DO say that.
That was one of the main points of the parable of the good samaritan for example, as the samaritans weren't exactly a popular people amongst the jewish audience the parable was intended for.
And the bible explicitly talks about loving thy neighbour as thyself in several different places, with similar phrases appearing in texts of many other religions and philosophies around the world. This is a very common ideal in human thought, and has been around for a long time.
If only people would remember it more of the time...
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Ref 64, Magic
"The deaths in the Lebanese and Gaza conflicts are the faults of those countries and tehe terrorist they harbor."
The Gaza Strip is a concentration camp, not a country. As I have pointed out in previous posts, the desperate acts taken by the Palestinian people were misguided, not only because they were ineffective against one of the most powerful nations in the world, but because they justified the genocidal acts that followed. Zionist terrorism and crimes against humanity must end.
"It seems the no dictate to other countries you are all so fond of, does not apply to Israel."
I suggest you listen to the entire speech delivered yesterday by President Obama. Both sides were urged to make an effort to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
"The U.S is not giving up the southwest back to Mexico."
Does this mean we should all look up at mother Russia as a beacon of freedom and magnanimity for allowing the former Soviet Republics to become sovereign nations once again? Are you suggesting that powerful nations should appropriate the lands of weaker nations? Let's hope China doesn't become too powerful and decide to build summer camps in the Rockies.
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Marcus Aurelius, after your touching paean of praise for your country and your usual Europe bashing I, for one, am very happy that you've 'finally (gone) home for good' but can't help wondering; if you hate Europe and all things European so much why is your moniker that of a Roman (aka Italian) Emperor? Perhaps there just wasn't any comparable American figure to give weight to your pronouncements?
And before you accuse me of anti-americanism, sorry, I'm not - just anti-bigotry.
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Marcus, most people with strong personalities and individual qualities never need to categorise races with blind ignorance like you do. You may be a below average type of loser with your views of the human race. But we all have the capacity to change and improve so please try to be nicer.
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It's no surprise the Bush supporters are angry with Obama's recent speeches. They can see their time coming to an end. They can see the imminent shrinkage of the Israeli state to within it's proper 1948 borders. They can see an independent sovereign state of Palestine emerging and it angers them. They know that Gaza has oil, which will bring it prosperity. They know that East Jerusalem will return to the Palestinians. They know that Iran is being vindicated for helping the Palestinians survive, and for recognising, as Obama has, that Palestinian life is intolerable. In the Middle East, Europe and Asia, Hamas is recognised for achieving dignity for the people in Gaza and for it's brave stance: a David against two powerful Goliaths.
There is absolutely no reason why Israel should not be happy and content within it's 1948 borders. There is no reason why the Palestinians should not be entitled to a similar prosperous lifestyle or why the Palestinian refugees should not be allowed home. The Jewish settlers, finding themselves in the trapped in the new Palestinian state could take an oath of allegiance to their new country in the same way the Netanyahu Governmnt proposes for Arbs in Israel. Or they can decide "their future would be better elsewhere" as Tzipni Livni suggested for the Arabs in Israel. It's their option. What isn't an option anymore is an independent sovereign state of Palestine: it's destiny. Sixty years of struggle and resistance have paid off. Their victory is coming soon.
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#69
"Lets hope china doesnt become too powerful and decide to build summer camps in the rockies"
You can not stop them,they own them.But dont tell Marcus it will spoil his day..
Only joshing, best wishes.
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I was lucky enough to have watched the President Obama's speech at the US Embassy in London. It was a powerful speech; one that I hope will mark a new beginning for Arab/Muslim relations and US.
I don't claim that this will resolve all of the issues discussed on the speech; I am like most people cautiously optimistic.
I was particularly glad (as a Muslim) that he affirmed US and Israeli bond, and Israeli's right to exist and to have peace, as he cannot be an honest broker without looking the problem from all perspectives.
Obama has been consistent in his effort to reach out to the Muslim/Arab world since he came to power. I hope that the Arab/Muslim leaders and all those are involved in this debate respond in kind to what is an incredible opportunity to resolve differences and right past wrongs whomever the perpetrators.
To the cynics, I say lets not fail because we have not tried, but lets succeed or fail by trying.
Hargageys
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64. At 1:33pm on 05 Jun 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
.
Question forget the rhetoric: How can the Israelis trust the word of the Palestinians? Israel is the only one being asked to make sacrifices."
Is it a sacrifice not to kill children and not to steal land and water? Is killing so important to Israelies and their appeasers?
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ref #69
The West Bank and Gaza was land given by Israel and the Palestinians never lived up to their obligations of stopping terrorist attacks.
The Mexico anaolgy is valid. Mexico attacked the U.S and lost we took much of what is the Southwest.
The Arabs attacked Israel and lost.
I might point out respect for the religous sites are far more respectful under Israel than their predecessors.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Just been watching D day /65 years.
My heat felt thanks to all nations that fought,we owe our freedom to you,especially thoes who fell.
Marcus, if you have some thing nasty to say, just bugger off.
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Re 62
Where I grew, in Upstate New York, they did mention the fact that the Klan lynched people, while I was attending school. We didn't spend an entire length of time on the subject but my teachers did stress the fact that the Klan engaged in terrorism to prevent Blacks from voting.
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it good to see that others saw this speech as pretty much empty rhetoric. The part about women's rights was a joke. I didnt expect anything better.
On the other hand the US needs the mid east to assist them in their agenda today. I know as a culture we like bold gestures and grandstanding, but going into any muslim country and bashing them about barbaric cultural practices is counter-productive. It would only make most of us feel better about ourselves for saying something, even if it did not help.
It wouldnt change anything for the better but instead let them become defensive and dismissive of western views like they normally are.
The brute force and grandstanding method has not worked before it wont work now. SO to all the critics I would have liked to know what would they have done?
Going there with an amnesty international report and a human rights code of conduct and a lecture telling them 'you are disgusting' would be a waste of time. But it would help some people feel better about themselves and their president.
This was a foot in the door, nothing more, significant changes comes from behind the scenes diplomacy not from public embarassment and insults. Rome was built in a day.
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Re 70
I too don't know what to make of MarcusArilius.
Part of me would like to think that he's just playing the devils advocate. Having said that, it's not surprising that no one in the South would mention the lynchings that took place.
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Why is it that every Representative and leader are expected to point out another countries mistakes as a visiting guest.That doesn't really endear their leaders toward your country to work with you.Why doesn't the media do their job and NGOs and advocacy groups work from the inside to change laws.I wish our advocacy groups would work harder in this country to stop our politicians from hiding our inhuman activities.And the news would report more about the CIA,Congress,White House,Corporations and their business in other countries both past and present.You can only change a country from the inside.
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Welcome To WeaponWorld ~ Kool Keith - Prince Paul
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOVeACDnoco
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61. At 1:08pm on 05 Jun 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
The United States is more than exceptional, it is a civilization that is without equal and unique in all the world and in all of the world's history. There isn't now and never was anything like it and there may never be anywhere else. It is unlikely any other nation could copy it except in its most superficial aspects. Despite its setbacks, it blunders, seemingly impossible odds that threatened its very existance, it has perservered every time and grown stronger both absolutely and by comparison to other countries. It will again. It's unique construction and its history that lead the smartest and wisest men who ever conceived a government and a society in the way that they did is all it needed. 175 years of geographic remoteness from its adversaries and and a continent large territory of limitless bounty only put the icing on the cake. No other place on earth remains or has been so desirable a destination for people to relocate to and live their lives. It isn't utopia but it's the closest thing ever created on earth to it. That's what makes Europeans so jealous. They who thought they were everything turned out by comparison to be and have nothing. I've been there, seen it, breathed it, lived it, and grew to detest it. How nice it was to finally come home for good.
Are you a speech writer for every tinpot dictator thats ever been? Adolf would have been proud to have borrowed that rant and used it about Germany during the Munich rallies.
I'm all for patriotism but accuracy and humility is also a value
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75. At 2:33pm on 05 Jun 2009, Simon21 wrote:
64. At 1:33pm on 05 Jun 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
.
Question forget the rhetoric: How can the Israelis trust the word of the Palestinians? Israel is the only one being asked to make sacrifices."
Is it a sacrifice not to kill children and not to steal land and water? Is killing so important to Israelies and their appeasers?
First it's not the Palestinians land.
Second Israel is always urged to give Land for Peace. They give Land but no peace.
Let the Palestinians turn over evey Hamas member to Israel as a demonstration of their desire for peace.
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Doubled over in Dublin; it seems to me much of Ireland left for America during the potato famine in the 19th century and never returned when it was over. Ireland was rescued from being an impovrished island in large part by American corporations like Intel that invested there. It has been a society that has often believed in terrorism. The widespread support of the IRA is one example, the refusal to prosecute Catholic Priests now revealed to have sexually mollested children on a very widespared scale measured in the tens of thousands another. It's a society whose existance seems to revolve around pubs and alcohol. There is nothing Ireland can teach America it didn't already learn on its own.
UFO, lynchings of blacks in the South has been well known in the US and around the world since it happened. But only in America is the complex and tragic period of Reconstruction of the South after the Civil War ended that was responsible for it understood. Whether you listen to Billy Holiday's recording of "Strange Fruit" or read "To Kill a Mockingbird" there's been no secret of it. Unlike inferior European countries, we expose our dirty linen and try to clean it up, learn from our mistakes. What has been done in France for example that is comparable to the way civil rights of blacks have been given the greatest attention and progress made in the US? Where else in the world can you see an example of another persecuted minority changed by a society that transformed itself in just a matter of a few decades. No other place on earth I'm aware of.
Nosy Busybody, when the time neared for me to leave France for the last time, I counted the days in anticipation and kissed the ground when I got home. Based on large the number of British accents I heare in America, the Atlantic ocean isn't a wide enough moat to keep them out.
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76. At 2:35pm on 05 Jun 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #69
The West Bank and Gaza was land given by Israel and the Palestinians never lived up to their obligations of stopping terrorist attacks."
No The Palestinians lived there.
"The Mexico anaolgy is valid. Mexico attacked the U.S and lost we took much of what is the Southwest."
No, Dershovitz has let you down again. President Grant (a US president if you did not know) a veteran of the mexican war claimed it was very unjust.
And he would know
"I might point out respect for the religous sites are far more respectful under Israel than their predecessors."
Except that israel kills those (including children) who might to like to worship at them
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#60. MagicKirin: "Happy Birthday Israel"
Since you are Jewish and, although American, have such strong feelings for Israel, I've often wondered why you don't move there. Many families who have no immediate or recent link with the Middle East have done so, most especially from Europe. Is there a reason you don't live in what would appear to be your preferred environment?
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72. At 2:25pm on 05 Jun 2009, Richard_SM wrote:
It's no surprise the Bush supporters are angry with Obama's recent speeches. They can see their time coming to an end. They can see the imminent shrinkage of the Israeli state to within it's proper 1948 borders. They can see an independent sovereign state of Palestine emerging and it angers them. They know that Gaza has oil, which will bring it prosperity. They know that East Jerusalem will return to the Palestinians. They know that Iran is being vindicated for helping the Palestinians survive, and for recognising, as Obama has, that Palestinian life is intolerable. In the Middle East, Europe and Asia, Hamas is recognised for achieving dignity for the people in Gaza and for it's brave stance: a David against two powerful Goliaths."
It is true that Israel's position is declining by the month. Informal boycotts are having an impact and the country's so called democractic politics have degenerated into far-right farce.
"There is absolutely no reason why Israel should not be happy and content within it's 1948 borders."
No Israel will never agree to define its borders without being forced to do so.
It is founded on a rascist ideology -it cannot accpet peace with the palestinians as this would mean its own notions of superirority will be compromised.
Never forget the Israeli ruling clique uses war to mainitain its own position and its generals need conflict for their political careers.
The rascist state must end and new country which does not recognise religion or race constructed.
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41 every empire of the past has been cruel to people they conquered,Europeans as well.Americans as well.Religion has nothing to do with it.And yes Islam did help bring about the Age of Enlightenment because they still had scholars where as European Christianity didn't allow for using torture and etc..to get rid of ,both Roman and Orthodox Christianity.Knights were bringing back knowledge with them that Europe forgot about.And as civilization started in India and first spread to countries known as Iraq and Iran.They did spread civilization through out.Of course they were not Muslims then but they are still them descendants of those people.I won't won't even explain about why Spain and Portugal were so rich and early explorers.You should try reading more of your son history books and follow up with a trip to a Library.
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#65, J-I-D,
"Well - nice for you that you left.
VERY nice for the Europeans that you left.
Not so nice for the Americans."
You can have him back now. Does a trailer float?
Nevermind, we'll find out.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
It was a romantic, idealistic speech that presented Islam in a highly sentimental and unequivocally positive light.
The absence of historical accuracy does not appear to bother many people; the lavish praise of Islam went over well, and Obama is brilliant when it comes to compliments.
It was a shrewd and effective presentation, but Obama's practice of praising Islam in the most gushing, breathless terms is a questionable one. No one is perfect. Obama is very quick to apologize for Americans; he needs to be willing to see others in a more realistic light as well.
All of this syrupy sentiment is going over well with most people, but there is only a small amount of truth in it.
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#78
UK Wales
"Just been watching D day /65 years.
My heat felt thanks to all nations that fought,we owe our freedom to you,especially thoes who fell."
True and verywell said
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Marcus
Fear is the only darkness
Close your eyes what do you hear
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCyJRXvPNRo
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#55
saint dominick
"Israel's right to exist is not being challenged, what is being proposed is a solution that extends the same right to everyone else in that part of the world. Demanding recognition and respect while abusing those who can not defend themselves is a manifestation of arrogance and inhumanity with clear parallels to what happened to the Jewish people at the hands of "Christians" in years past. "
More than a little over-the-top.
Comparisons with the Holocaust are tasteless, inaccurate (to put it midly) and profoundly offensive.
It is possible to point out Isreal's abuses without the hyperbole, and without portraying Muslims as romantic, pure and helpless victims.
The sentimentalization of Islam in the west is a powerful trend at this time. The idealizing of ANY group is a dangerous and foolish idea.
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ref 387
Back to your Deshorwitz fetish. Harvard has been warned if you arein the Cambridge vicinity.
In regard to the sights, people are outraged when a President of Israel visited a Jewish sight The Temple Mount.
Yes it also a Jewish sight.
Regarding the Mexico analogy you are wrong as usual about who started the war.
But even you will acknowledge there are no calls for the U.S to return the land to Mexico.
If the Palestinians don't want peace(and they don't) let them move to Jordan.
Too much time and effort has been spent on them.
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#36
Habitual Hero
"#4 "Comparing a speech delivered by a thug to one delivered by the President of the United States is offensive to me"
In the past there's frequently been little difference. (in response to #4)"
*chuckle*
This site is so dependable.
The anti-American hysteria quote for the day, and it's still early here.
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#93
MAII (see what I did there?)
Would you propose Obama said damning things about the middle east? That would go down well. Firstly because there are actually, smart, intelligent, decent people that oppose violence living in the middle east. Secondly, why bother trying to anger a group of people that will use a negative barrage as a recruiting tool.
When Osama Bin Laden says ridiclous and insultful things about the USA, it makes alot of people in the USA want to kill him and his followers. If Obama does that to people in the middle east, surely they will react just the same as most Americans would?
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Re 86
UFO's?
UFO's?
Oh please, I don't what to think. What's that got to do with anything?
Not only that, you attack the IRish. Yes it's true that many people from Ireland came over here to this country during the Patatoe Famine, but to say what you said was out of line.
My dear sir if you have nothing positive to contribute to the conversation please just stop sayingthings and let the rest of Us discuss the issues in a positive manner.
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Phil-er-up
"I'm all for patriotism but accuracy and humility is also a value"
Which part did you find inaccurate? Humility at the expense of accuracy is stupid and disingenous. Even BBC couldn't find another society to compare America to. In its badly flawed series "America Age of Empire" it compared America to the ancient Roman Empire, the closest analogy it could find. The two though have little in common. Which nation do you choose to compare America to and in what way? The EU is not a nation but if it were, it is far inferior, its sole advantage of a cradle to grave welfare state is economicaly unsustainable and at enormous cost of freedom and the right to keep profits from being taxed to the point of destroying all incentive to local investment and innovation.
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Re 97
Don't be surprised that if governor Perry of Texas leaves the Union, that the hispanic community in Texas votes to join Mexico.
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It funny how America is stuck with an image of spreading Democracy through out the world.It started with Wilson who needed an excuse to get a return for American investments in Europe during WW1.It barely worked in Congress,however it has stuck America with an image he created years ago to get us into a war we really didn't belong in.The funniest thing was that President Wilson was signing segregation policies.We need to focus on business here not abroad.If you want to help the World anywhere build schools.Education changes a Nation.And we need to stop unfair foreign aid support of countries.
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ukwales (#78), that's a nice thought. There was an item in my newspaper (San Francisco Chronicle) this morning reporting that the British perceive that their contribution to the Allied victory is underappreciated by Americans. It also reported that the UK contributed almost as many soldiers to the D-Day invasion as the United States, and the combined total of British and Canadian forces was greater than the US forces.
The share of the credit is nothing to quibble about. This is a time to remember the fallen from all the allied nations who contributed to D-Day.
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American Couch "Potatoe"
I see you learned to spell at the same school as Dan Quail.
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#102
Any nation that produces an abomination such as yourself must have some serious flaws.
I'd much rather be somewhere that people respect each other as human beings & achknowledges their achievments.
Actually, I'm pretty sure America is pretty decent like that anyway, it's just your twsited, bitter perception. Tis a shame, a life of optimism is far more rewarding that one of paranoia and venom.
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Why do you quote other journalists? They are only giving you the opinion of one person. I could understand you quoting from a politician or quoting from an opinion poll but surely one person who has not been elected by anybody and who has no authority to do anything about anything is pointless.
Perhaps you journalists should form a club where you can debate these things amongst yourselves and leave us out of it.
Now Im off to find a journalist who actually reports the news.
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Ref 96, Timothy
"Comparisons with the Holocaust are tasteless, inaccurate (to put it midly) and profoundly offensive.
It is possible to point out Isreal's abuses without the hyperbole, and without portraying Muslims as romantic, pure and helpless victims."
Did I mention the Holocaust in my earlier post on this subject? The Jewish people have been persecuted for millennia; more often than not by Christians.
I don't consider Muslims any more romantic or pure than anyone else. I see them as human beings, no different from the rest of us. Regarding the "helpless victims" I believe that is a term that can be applied to the Palestinian people; both the ones that were kicked out of the homes where their ancestors lived for centuries before Israel became a sovereign, and those who are caged like animals in the Gaza Strip.
Insinuating that Israel is an innocent and helpless nation does not reflect reality. They are, in fact, one of the powerful nations in the world. The only nations that could challenge their military superiority are the USA, Russia, and China. To suggest that people with a few rudimentary rockets and AK47s are a threat to Israel's survival is an exaggeration that only zealots and the most naive can accept at face value.
Our focus, however, should not be who is the most romantic, pure, or helpless but what compromises can be reached to put an end to the Israeli-Palestinian crisis. Dwelling on past wrong will lead nowhere, the solution depends on people of good willing on both sides of this conflict more interested in the welfare of future generations than the elusive hope of resurrecting the past or achieving mythical goals.
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#105
What you say is true, however, don't get me started on the French.
De Gaulle refused to achknowledge the British, Canadian and American (among others) sacrifice and liked to claim that it was French troops that liberated France on their larry. Considering a single French solider died on D-day, and that the myth is only recently being dispelled in France, it gets me pretty angry!
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#109
I think you may have hit a metaphorical brick wall. I can only hope that the barrage of logic and compassion actually manage to knock it over.
What happens when an unstopable force (comprehension) hits an imovable object (ignorance)?
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MAII (#106) "I see you learned to spell at the same school as Dan Quail."
Do you mean Dan Quayle?
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Oh sainted one;
I just love the way Europeons can dish it out in their bashing of America based on lies, distortions, facts taken out of context but when any of the obvious many serious and even fatal flaws and shortcomings of their own societies are pointed out to them, they get very angry about it. Yet it is a fact that Europe is in a steady state of decline that will reduce it to the status of a third world civilization in the next generation or two while America will remain pre-emminent. Europeons hate that. Europe is becoming increasingly less important to the US government and America while East Asia is becoming far more important. The tides of economic power and political influence are clearly shifting. Europe's plaintif screech is becoming a fainter and now almost inaudible din. Nothing they do can influence America or save themselves. And most of America IMO could hardly care less.
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If the Europeans are so concerned about the Palestinians, why don't they grant it admission to the EU? Then Palestinians could travel to Europe including Britain freely...well they'd get in one way or another.
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ref #89
48 border now? Even Prince Abdullah did not go that far.
How an indfensible strategic position. this is not a minor principality in Europe.
This is a country that is besieged by terrorists who have no respect for their fellow moslems much less anyone else.
You complain about what the Palestinian have yet you would subject Israel to worse.
Lets keep the current borders, the Palestinians are safe there as long as they don't conduct terrorism
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American Couch "Potatoe"
"Re 86
UFO's?
UFO's?
Oh please, I don't what to think."
That's been obvious to me from your fist posting. It still looks that way.
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A lot of People who are now Palestinian were implanted by the Ottomans just like Han Chinese in Tibet and Uygars Regions.And Jews from Europe to Israel.It's a numbers game.Both wanted to have largest amount of people who shared ideas to dominate politics. In fact that is part Israels reasoning about people claims to land because they were implanted just like they were.Both came from other nations and should accept the fact that they are both there now.WW1 policies that cause problems today.
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Oh sainted one
"Considering a single French solider died on D-day, and that the myth is only recently being dispelled in France, it gets me pretty angry!"
Angry? Your halo is starting to tarnish. Better look for a way to find absolution or you may wind up in hell...or worse, Middlesborough.
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Gary over the Hill
"Do you mean Dan Quayle?"
I went to that same school too :o)
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Both sides of this issue are racist.Could you imagine German Americans and Irish Americans fighting over who had the right to live in America when both came a immigrants.It would be ridiculous.And so is this conflict.
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That marcus fella's totally high on himself isn't he. I'm reminded of something that Robin Williams says to J.T. Walsh at end of Good Morning Vietnam. If you've seen it you'll know what I mean.
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Here's a link to an account of the ten French marines who died in the D-Day invasion.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/jun/07/secondworldwar.france
Most of the French fighters were in the Resistance, of course, and their contribution was important to the success of the operation. Reginal Jones covers some of their exploits in his memoirs.
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Palestinians are not "immigrants." The Palistinian refugees are people who were displaced from their homeland, and their descendants:
http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/whois.html
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You gotta laff wen A guy joks about others speeeling then one notises that Dan quails is not the only but just the fist mistake
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Most of the French sold out to the Nazis with the Vichy government. When I lived there, the subject was taboo. The Resistance was only a very small part of the population.
So ten French Marines died on D-Day...compared to countless thousands of Brits, Americans, Poles, Canadians, and lots of others. Shows you how badly the French wanted to fight the Nazis to liberate their country. And then they wouldn't even acknowledge what was done on their behalf. What a waste but hardly a surprise.
And what did Britain do to thank the Poles for the sacrifice they made on Britain's behalf, the ally Britain went to war for in the first place? They sold them out to the USSR when the war was over. So they went from being slaves of the Nazi butcher Hitler to slaves of the Soviet butcher Stalin and their borders were shifted. I don't hear any talk of Poland taking back land stolen from it. I don't hear any talk of removing Russian settlers from all over the nations bordering it like Ukraine and the Balkins. And for over 40 years, Poland stayed a slave of the USSR. Typical European betrayal. Typical European duplicity.
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happylaze, someone here said you are the same person who used to post as jacksforge. Are you and do you still bang out frog lawn ornaments from scrap steel and other junkyard materials?
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Subject:
A quieter voice on the Obama speech
Posting:
81. At 3:01pm on 05 Jun 2009, AmericanSportFan wrote:
Re 70
I too don't know what to make of MarcusArilius.2
I think hefrequently becomes "tired and emotional" (as they say in private eye)and he admits he doesn't like Europeans because of
their colour (whatever that means).
I gather he is not a fan of Obama probably for the same reason.
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125. At 5:53pm on 05 Jun 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Most of the French sold out to the Nazis with the Vichy government. When I lived there, the subject was taboo. The Resistance was only a very small part of the population."
Blacks are also a small part of the French population.
But you seem to have something against them
.
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125. At 5:53pm on 05 Jun 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"And what did Britain do to thank the Poles for the sacrifice they made on Britain's behalf, the ally Britain went to war for in the first place? They sold them out to the USSR when the war was over. So they went from being slaves of the Nazi butcher Hitler to slaves of the Soviet butcher Stalin and their borders were shifted. I don't hear any talk of Poland taking back land stolen from it. I don't hear any talk of removing Russian settlers from all over the nations bordering it like Ukraine and the Balkins. And for over 40 years, Poland stayed a slave of the USSR. Typical European betrayal. Typical European duplicity."
Typical incoherent Marcus speak. It comes from being "tired and emotional" when he writes.
The Poles are largely white too so his views on european colour become increasingly bizzare
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ref #89
48 border now? Even Prince Abdullah did not go that far.
How an indfensible strategic position. this is not a minor principality in Europe."
No it wants to dominate the whole of the Middle East. Israelies have been taught that they need more lebensraum. Settler leaders are cvery clear.
"This is a country that is besieged by terrorists who have no respect for their fellow moslems much less anyone else."
This is a nuclear armed country whihc cannot accept reacial equality.
this is why the world is at last starting to boycott it. No rascist states.
"You complain about what the Palestinian have yet you would subject Israel to worse."
You approve of oppressing the Palestinians, why shouldn't the Israelies be a oppressed going by your logic.
Since you think oppression is a good thing.
"Lets keep the current borders, the Palestinians are safe there as long as they don't conduct terrorism"
Israel does not have borders,the only country that is allowed to do so.
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113. At 4:54pm on 05 Jun 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Oh sainted one;
But most Americans die before Europeans marcus.
Cannot tell you how much I will refrain from dancing on your grave.
Europe wins - again. But keep trying.
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125. MAII
You clearly have no idea how offensive your comments are.
What exactly do you think the financially challenged British Empire was going to do in 1945 - 1949 to remove the most powerful land army on earth from Polish soil?
We did what we could. From Normandy onward, most Polish forces in the west fought alongside, and essentially within the logistical structure of , 1st Canadian Army. They were with us, and we were with them, at Caen, and at Falaise. You apparently do not understand the meaning of that to either Poles or Canadians.
When the war ended we took in every expatriot Pole who asked to come to our shores. I am certain Australia and New Zealand did likewise. For the great majority, it allowed them to live a life of freedom and opportunity. Poland was our ally then, and is our ally and friend to this day. Even during the cold war, Canada and Poland often paired together on peacekeeping, and there was great mutual respect and friendship.
Your comment is grossly offensive.
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110. At 4:46pm on 05 Jun 2009, SaintOne wrote:
#105
What you say is true, however, don't get me started on the French.
De Gaulle refused to achknowledge the British, Canadian and American (among others) sacrifice and liked to claim that it was French troops that liberated France on their larry. Considering a single French solider died on D-day, and that the myth is only recently being dispelled in France, it gets me pretty angry!"
It might interest you to know that French troops did help liberate France, many of them black and arab, there is spendid film on tyhis very subject.
And some might argue had the US spent less time trading and making money with Hitler and looking the other way as he started killing jews, there may have been less casualties on both sides.
Remember WWII srtarted in 1939. The US didn't bother to get involved, despite being told of the evils of the nazi regime, until 1941.
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105. At 4:35pm on 05 Jun 2009, Gary_A_Hill wrote:
ukwales (#78), that's a nice thought. There was an item in my newspaper (San Francisco Chronicle) this morning reporting that the British perceive that their contribution to the Allied victory is underappreciated by Americans. It also reported that the UK contributed almost as many soldiers to the D-Day invasion as the United States, and the combined total of British and Canadian forces was greater than the US forces.
The share of the credit is nothing to quibble about. This is a time to remember the fallen from all the allied nations who contributed to D-Day"
Well said.
However too much is made of D Day. Over 2 million Russian troops launched Operation Bagration in the same month - the biggest offensive of the war.
D-Day was important, and did help shorten the war, but Germany was ultimately defeated by Russia.
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#103 At 4:18pm on 05 Jun 2009, AmericanSportFan wrote:
Re 97
Don't be surprised that if governor Perry of Texas leaves the Union, that the hispanic community in Texas votes to join Mexico.
"
Then after they vote texas into mexico for sentimental reasons they can call flee texas to go to the US border once the realities of their 'home land' hits them again. That would be verry funny.
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ref#130
ref #89
48 border now? Even Prince Abdullah did not go that far.
How an indfensible strategic position. this is not a minor principality in Europe."
No it wants to dominate the whole of the Middle East. Israelies have been taught that they need more lebensraum. Settler leaders are cvery clear.
(yes they want to dominate by giving back the Sinai and the West Bank)
"This is a country that is besieged by terrorists who have no respect for their fellow moslems much less anyone else."
This is a nuclear armed country whihc cannot accept reacial equality.
(Moslems and Christians can practice their faith freely how many other Middle Eastern states say that. Try building a Synougue in Mecca)
this is why the world is at last starting to boycott it. No rascist states.
"You complain about what the Palestinian have yet you would subject Israel to worse."
You approve of oppressing the Palestinians, why shouldn't the Israelies be a oppressed going by your logic.
Since you think oppression is a good thing.
"Lets keep the current borders, the Palestinians are safe there as long as they don't conduct terrorism"
(Israel is more trustworthy and deserves reperations from the Middle Eastern countries and most of the world)
Israel does not have borders,the only country that is allowed to do so.
(They have borders and have the right to protect them from terrorists who Palestinians refuse to denounce)
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Simon21:
"And some might argue had the US spent less time trading and making money with Hitler and looking the other way as he started killing jews, there may have been less casualties on both sides"
Blaming Americans for the casualties of WWII is a new and exceptionally disgusting and reprehensible twist to anti-Americanism. Writing this on the eve of D-Day is even more disgraceful.
Thousands of Jewish refugees came to the US during the 1930s. The attacks on Jews were reported throughout the period, from 1933 onward.
As for "tading and making money with Hitler" - the implication is that Americans had some sort of special relatonship with the Nazis. Outrageous. All nations traded with Germany during those years.
But no doubt all of my comments will be ignored in the tidal wave of anti-Americanism.
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Simple Simon
This is the second time today you have inferred that I am a racist. The first time your posting was deleted. It would not surprise me if it is for a second time as well. This time I will copy it in my posting myself hoping it will not disappear.
"I think hefrequently becomes "tired and emotional" (as they say in private eye)and he admits he doesn't like Europeans because of
their colour (whatever that means).
I gather he is not a fan of Obama probably for the same reason."
Can you cite even one instance in which I have even inferred that my opinions or prejudices are based on color or race? You say I don't like Europeans because of their color, predominantly Caucausian. You say I don't like Obama becaue of his color, half black, half caucausian. Do you suppose I hate myself because of my own color? Which one would that be if I don't? Do you suppose I am oriental or American Indian? Maybe that's it. Not only is your accusation without any factual basis, it isn't even logical.
Yes I hate Europeans for their culture, not their color. And I remind you that I was as much opposed to McCain as I was to Obama during the campaign and I said they were equally incompetent and unsuitable to be president. I'd be no less critical of McCain had he won and performed as poorly as Obama has.
Now why do you suppose Europeans are so preoccupied with the plight of the Palestinians? They didn't seem to be so preoccupied with the plight of the Ruwandans, the Sri Lankin Tamils, the black Sudanese, just the Palestinians? They have no special historical or cultural ties to them. There is only one rational and plausible explanation. They don't actually care about the Palestinians at all, they just hate the Jews...like they have for over a thousand years. That alone would be reason enough to detest Europe after what they've done to them but there is far more that is much blacker. Europe is a series of tribal cultures that thinks it is the supreme achievement of civilization and that all other societies should be subject to it or at least copy it. In fact Europe is nothing, it's an overly self indulgent, self centered, overbearing, intolerent failure of a place in steady decline now that it has no more slave colonial empires to exploit. It is going down for the count. Nothing and nobody can save it. As the end approaches, they will each be pointing fingers at each other finding blame everywhere but in themselves. They are going to get exactly what they deserve. As for America, it will survive Obama, it has survived worse in the past but not without scars to show for it.
Uninteresting Foreigner, I'd make my postings more offensive but when I do, the moderators don't allow them to be published. It's all I can do to avoid breaking the rules by diluting them and still express my observations and analysis accurately. That you or others don't like my views is your problem, not mine. Fortuntely, I have sufficient objectivity to get most of them published. If you don't like them, don't read them.
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@109 (StD): "To suggest that people with a few rudimentary rockets and AK47s are a threat to Israel's survival is an exaggeration that only zealots and the most naive can accept at face value."
But is that all those people have, if we count the potential for Iran or other nations to feed them something more powerful? Perhaps not.
"Our focus, however, should not be who is the most romantic, pure, or helpless but what compromises can be reached to put an end to the Israeli-Palestinian crisis. Dwelling on past wrong will lead nowhere, the solution depends on people of good willing on both sides of this conflict more interested in the welfare of future generations than the elusive hope of resurrecting the past or achieving mythical goals."
You are absolutely on track. Unfortunately, there are far too many folks on both sides of this that don't understand it.
@all: It's worth reviewing the original division of land in the 1948 agreement. If the maps I have seen are correct, it would be a lot like declaring two or three interior counties in Maryland to be part of Virginia, and vice versa. How on earth did anyone expect this to be governable? In short, it wasn't and isn't. A real two-state solution would divide the area into two contiguous tracts with no interleaving, and with defined borders. I don't see that happening any time soon, unfortunately; perhaps eventually sense will penetrate the discussion.
The only thing about the original division that made any sense was that Jerusalem was to be an international city. It still should be. Unfortunately, it appears that it's just going to be yet another flash point for blind people who can't see past their own hatreds, and a distraction for the rest of the world.
If it were strictly up to me, I'd throw everyone and every living creature out of Jerusalem, and seal it up for about 1,500 years. Another alternative is to throw everyone and every living creature out of it and then destroy it so it cannot be rebuilt. In either case it's the equivalent of having two kids that won't stop fighting over a toy, and taking the toy away from both of them. Unfortunately, in this case the two kids are willing to kill each other over the toy, and there's no adults around willing to take it away from both of them.
@43(ASF): "Here in the States, those elements who don't want peace are mainly Evangelical Christians, who see Isreal as the central figure in the Beginning of the End of Times. They see the founding Isreal as the starting point for the end of the World. In fact, they help out Isreal in an effort to futher bring about the rapture. They have no interest in Isreal, otherwise. I think they have misread the bible, but that is a differant debate."
ASF, I don't know a Christian anywhere who believes in helping out Israel to bring about the Rapture of the Church. God doesn't need man's help to bring it about, and man's efforts aren't going to delay it one microsecond. As far as Israel being a central indicator of the end, that's not identified in the Lord's discussion of this (see Matthew 24:3-31). As far as how we are to treat Israelis and Palestinians, it's the same, and the same as everyone else (Matthew 5:43-45). How can I fulfill God's clear requirements that I love both the lovable and the unlovable and yet not want peace in the Middle East?
Matthew 5:45 is the best part of all of this: God loves each of us as individuals, regardless of what we have done. Our task is to love each other that same way: not with our emotions, which are fickle, but with our commitment.
Regards to all this rainy Friday afternoon near Washington!
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The link does not take into account the decades of oppression of the Christian minority over the Moslem majority in Lebanon. The mandates of Lebanon and Syria were constructed to create a Chirstian and a Moslem state (at that time Lebanon was largely Christian) - no doubt the divide and conquer concept. Over time the Christian population of Lebanon dwindled through emigration whle there was a steady stream of Moslem migrants to Lebanon. In spite of what became a vastly larger Moslem population, the Christians, who had the top position by consitution, still treated Moslems as second-class citizens. Although many decry the present arrangement and strength of Syria in Lebanon, the Moslems are finally represented.
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Simon21 (#134) "D-Day was important, and did help shorten the war, but Germany was ultimately defeated by Russia."
We do agree on that, and I have made the point in previous threads in this forum.
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MarcusAureliusII (#138) "I'd make my postings more offensive but when I do, the moderators don't allow them to be published. It's all I can do to avoid breaking the rules by diluting them and still express my observations and analysis accurately."
This is a revealing remark, put leaves me puzzled how you arrive at this tactic of trying to be as offensive as you can get away with. If you believe your observations and analysis are worthy of being considered by others, don't you see that your style detracts from getting your message across? If you don't want to get your message across, then your posts amount to nothing but self-gratification.
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Simon21, I agree with MAII about your remark about color bias. If he has expressed prejudices about race or color specifically, I'd like you to point out where.
It seems to me he dislikes just about everyone.
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arclightt (#139) " ... it would be a lot like declaring two or three interior counties in Maryland to be part of Virginia, and vice versa. How on earth did anyone expect this to be governable?"
This remark reminded me of Llivia.
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# 70 Rosybeeme wrote [to Macho Autisticus]
'...if you hate Europe and all things European so much why is your moniker that of a Roman (aka Italian) Emperor? '
I'm guessing paranoid megalomania and delusions of grandeur.
"And before you accuse me of anti-americanism, sorry, I'm not - just anti-bigotry."
And before anyone accuses Macho Autisticus of being pro-American, sorry, he's not - just pro-bigotry.
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# 71 U14017943 wrote [to Macho Autisticus]
"You may be a below average type of loser with your views of the human race."
MAY be?!
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# 78 ukwales wrote [to Macho Autisticus]
"Marcus, if you have some thing nasty to say, just bugger off."
I would suggest that the 'if' is entirely superfluous.
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#69
saintDominick,
Check out the link to UNRWA on #123
In 1950 there were 750,000 Arab refugees in or from the Holy Land. Now there are 4,600,000 (UN figures)
1) If, as you claim, the Israelis have a policy of genocide (God forbid) these numbers suggest spectacular ineptitude.
2) You conveniently forget the approximately 800,000 Jewish refugees expelled from Arab countries since 1948, 586,000 of whom fled to Israel.
Worry not, I will remind you.
#72, #89 Simon21, Richard_S_M
Israel is a secular state. That is a fact. You can deny it, but the fact remains.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume when you say 'Palestine' you mean Judea, Samaria and Gaza. Ask the Arabs in Gaza to show you a map of Palestine. It will include everything from Lebanon to Eilat, and from Tel Aviv to Jericho. Their idea of a two-state solution is one for Hamas and one for Fatah.
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# 81 AmericanSportFan wrote:
"I too don't know what to make of MarcusArilius."
I would suggest ground beef.
Except I'd predict a nasty, bitter aftertaste....
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#137
TimothyR444,
I will not ignore your comments. If anything, your talents are wasted here. Far too sensible.
:-)
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Ref 137. TimothyR444
Simon21 in his #133 is correct and TimothyR44 in his post #137 is wrong.
"And some might argue had the US spent less time trading and making money with Hitler and looking the other way as he started killing jews." This is factually correct.
There are others, but here's just one example: the Bush family. The war started in Europe in 1939. George Bush's grandfather, Prescot Bush was trading with Nazi Germany and did not stop even when the mass slaughter of Jews was well known. Bush was making profits from companies using jewish slave labour brought in from the concentration camps. Eventually his company's assets were seized in 1942 when his involvement was traced. Profit was more important to Bush than the fate of European Jews. Profit was more important to Bush than his own country, as by this time America was at war with Germany. If you didn't know this, it shows what a good job the lawyers George H Bush hired to keep this out of the American news. It's well known in Europe though. One of the reasons neither were liked here.
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#138 Marcus,
Amen! Keep telling it like it is.
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I said they were immigrants implanted during Ottoman Empire.Are they there now did they build lives there,Of course but they were immigrants at one time like the Jews living there.Or most people in US today had ancestors that were immigrants.But both sides are arguing over land instead of sharing it.
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Re 106
your lame attempt and an insult shall be ignored.
Re 112
Thanks.
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Ref 148. Scotch-git
Scotch Git wrote "Israel is a secular state. That is a fact. You can deny it, but the fact remains."
Richard fell about laughing.
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41. maria-ashot,
That's a fine comment, cutting like a scythe through all the politically-correct propaganda about Islam.
54. saintDominick wrote:
Obviously, no nation has the right to slaughter civilians the way Israel did in Lebanon and Gaza. They deserve the label rogue nation more than any other on planet Earth.
This is only "obvious" to you because of your blind bias. In fact Israel has the right and the duty to defend itself against terror attacks from Hamas and Hezbollah. These terror groups are guilty of the crime of attacking Israeli civilians from within their own civilian populations. The Dominick Vilas of this world never complain about that.
When you were posting as Domonick Vila you made it clear you thought Hamas was firing rockets into the "occupied territories" from Gaza when it is obvious to anyone with a passing knowledge of the conflict that the areas under rocket attack are in Israel proper, and not under dispute. So again, since you have a lot to say about the conflict, you should study the background to it - at least to the extent that you will be able to take part in an informed debate on the issues.
Regarding actual rogue nations, and not your fantasy as to what constitutes a rogue nation, Sudan is currently top of a long list of them. But I guess you think it's OK for Sudan's Arab Islamists to slaughter hundreds of thousands of their fellow Muslims, simply because they were black. Anyone with a sense of proportion calls that race-inspired genocide and would never dream of putting it in the same league as a country defending itself against terror attacks, leave alone claim that it is not as bad.
96. TimothyR444,
Too true. SaintDominick's comparison of Israelis to Nazis is the typical refuge of those whose poor understanding of the Israeli-Arab conflict is driven by their anti-Israel bias. Unfortunately the insult loses none of its impact through endless repetition by those who cannot think for themselves re this conflict. It remains as vile and mindless as it ever was.
Since he is keen on comparisons, SaintDominick might like to study the intimate links between the Arabs and the Nazis. But no, I guess that's not on the cards.
139. arclightt wrote:
@109 (StD): "To suggest that people with a few rudimentary rockets and AK47s are a threat to Israel's survival is an exaggeration that only zealots and the most naive can accept at face value."
But is that all those people have, if we count the potential for Iran or other nations to feed them something more powerful? Perhaps not.
Not just potential. A month or two prior to Israel's attack on Gaza in late December, rockets from Gaza with considerable explosive power were traveling about 40 kilometers to hit Israeli cities like Ashdod. A number of construction workers who had decided not to take shelter when the siren sounded were killed by one such rocket. It was not made in someone's garage. There is no doubt that the escalation in the rocket threat was a deciding factor in Israel's decision to attack.
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126. MarcusAureliusII,
I cannot tell a lie, 'twas I. Yes, jacksforge and Happylaze are one and the same. Jacksforge was banned, I guess through repeated abuse of the system here and then snuck back in quite unashamedly as Happylaze.
I would never return to a place where I wasn't wanted.
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Jerusalem is thousands of years old. There were people there long before the Ottoman Empire. The Palestinian refugees are indigenous to the area. Faeyth appears to subscribe to the "land without people" myth.
http://www.meforum.org/1877/a-land-without-a-people-for-a-people-without
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Ref 133. Simon21
Simon21 in #133 is correct. TimothyR444 in #137 is wrong to disagree.
Simon wrote "And some might argue had the US spent less time trading and making money with Hitler and looking the other way as he started killing jews..." This is factually accurate.
There are many examples, but one is the Bush family. The war in Europe started in 1939. Prescot Bush traded with Nazi Germany until his company's assets were seized in 1942.
Bush's Grandfather
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SimpleSimon, Gary oer the Hill;
The fact is that without the United States entry into WWII, the USSR would have been defeated by the Nazis. Many historians say it was almost defeated as things stood. In fact many believe that if Hitler had listened to his generals and bypassed Moscow, He'd have defeated the USSR anyway. The defeat of Nazi Germany was a collaborative effort which involved many countries but the single critical element without which the Allies would have lost in Europe on all fronts was the entry of the United States with its massive industrial might, wealth, and ability to quickly mobilize its efforts to a war footing at about the last possible moment before the Nazis would have been unstoppable.
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ref #134
Why do people have to discount the U.S contributions in WW2. It was a joint effort. No doubt the delaying actions of the Russia into the brutal winter were key.
but to say that the U.S contribution only speeded up Germany's defeat is wrong.
It seems that some can give this country credit. We give more humantarian aid than any nation yet people will complain about the petty U.N dues.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
No. 80, and some others, have asked: "what might have been said differently?"
Let me offer my thoughts, within the assumed parameters of the task: that there is interest in drawing the Muslim world into recognising and accepting Israel; abandoning threats to Israel's existence; joining in the battle to end extremist attacks (as Pakistan is now vigorously doing); cooperating more closely with other communities of the human family to overcome collective crises (economic, environmental, social, etc. etc.)
For the sake of a clearer argument I will roughly follow the outlines of President Obama's speech:
1. Cut the preamble and go straight to "Salaam aleykum!" the traditional greeting. No fuss is needed, a lot of what he says at the beginning is already known. Just go straight to the gist and go for more substance, max out the time allotted with real substance, instead of fluff and tinsel.
2. What a great city Cairo is: AND it has a pre-Islamic history, as well as a Muslim and a Coptic Christian face.
3. Since human awareness first began, we have been consumed with a desire to understand the universe beyond our immediate reality. For some, over the course of history, this desire has led to belief systems that eventually evolved into religions: polytheistic, as the ancient Egyptians' was, and monotheistic. And of course there are also many who today recognize no force beyond the immediate material reality. And still others who are in the process of formulating an answer to the question of what lies beyond terrestrial existence -- and others yet for whom the very question is indeed meaningless.
4. Today the entire planet faces serious threats and challenges which cannot be solved without everyone working together. And that means that we have to finally set aside the argument about who is ultimately right: polytheist, monotheist or atheist; Muslim or Christian or Buddhist; observant or secular Jew, Shia or Sunni, Catholic or Protestant. And we must marshal all our forces over the great challenges that confront us.
5. identify the challenges: (1) the global economic crisis (2) the climate crisis (3) extremism.
6. Focus on each of the challenges. Start with the economy as that is closest to everyone's heart (pocket) and so will provide an effective unifying moment. talk about what needs to be done, what is being done. Here is an excellent place to pay tribute to Arab and Middle Eastern resources and talents -- without romanticising or exaggerating anything, or lying about history by pretending Muslims are all "teachers of tolerance" (something they have never been as a collective). Here you talk about education and innovation, investment and sound practices and values, collaboration and breaking down barriers of hostility, creating (possibly) a more prosperous ME region.
7. Next the climate crisis. Here it would be important to mention, tactfully, the problem with population growth and the need to take a more realistic approach to household management (e.g., let us get away from the dedication of a woman's life to producing 8-12 children, and from the idealization of the fecund male as the one who fathers scores of sons with multiple wives... so they can continue doing so in their adulthood). Yes, this is culturally sensitive, but it needs to be said -- AND CAN BE SAID, gracefully and gently with carefully chosen words, as Obama is good at.
8. Next the extremism. Here a little mea culpa would make the whole thing go much better: address the damage done in the Iraq war with a bit more emphasis and contrition: lots of Americans are upset about what is being learned now about abuses and excessive zeal on the part of some service personnel, not to mention diversion of fund, looting of museums, and so forth. Speak of the painful human cost to all sides of the war. But then explain WHY we are determined to end the threat posed by the fanatics. Really talk about extremism in greater detail -- and out of that discussion, gently bring up the need to move away from the rigidity of certain aspects of islamic attitudes that hinder for example the rights and aspirations of women, or that lead to abuses. Here is where, if you must, you can try to say that the actual purpose of religion is of course not to enslave women or intimidate the young into blind obedience, but to lead to greater enlightenment.
9. And of course more needs to be said about human rights. About the fact that integrating the global community further means being willing to engage in a fruitful, facts-based dialogue to examine all the details of the entire human story, not selectively, but inclusively.
10. Obviously, today we are all not the people who lived 100, 200, 300, 400 years ago. Here he can bring up America's example with slavery, Civil Rights, etc. We overcame this through non-violence. Gandhi and MLKing Jr. The problem of violence and the need to end the subversion of enlightenment that is caused by any culture that embraces and tolerates cruelty. Here he can include the bridging elements again: we have problems with violence and cruelty in America. Our kids are shooting each other in school. We have horrific crimes we struggle to comprehend. But we do not give up fighting this tide of contempt for others...
11. And finally, the ME. Here, most of what he said was sound; could have been said with less lachrymosity (it gets a little sentimental, honestly: you want to project actual policy content, decisions taken and determination to implement, so eliminate the autobiographical references as too well known already... Sure, the audience "gets goose-bumps" from every turn of phrase that hints that MAYBE you too are secretly a Muslim -- and you play that to the hilt, unthinkingly I would say, the "peace be upon them" bit and the references to Jerusalem and Isra -- what you ought to be doing instead is being 100% SOLID PRAGMATIC, none of the romance of ancient sagas.
The romance of the ancient sagas is what actually caused the problem. Let people worship as they choose to (or not at all) but let us not get bogged down in the competing sagas again, as that always ends badly. It is not a foundation for policy; it is a foundation for discord.
12. Finally, present the current vision for the ME programme being put forth. And then close with a rosy picture of "the future generations shall thank us for getting them out of the crisis scenario... IF we succeed."
And there you have it, all the pitfalls avoided and of course much left unsaid, but substance, substance, substance, without compromising what our core beliefs are in the US and other places where women are commonly regarded as fully human, and actual "unbelief" is not a capital offense.
For the record, before everyone jumps all over me: (1) I do not personally support a two-state solution for the ME problems between Israelis and Palestinians -- for the simple reason that Muslim society does much less to safeguard the rights & well-being of women and children than its Israeli counterpart.
(2) I do not hold Muslims to a higher standard than other monotheists. I believe that the sacred texts of every major religion (and there are at least eight at the present time) are sufficiently complex -- and important -- to require extensive annotation and explication to the parties who read them.
Indeed, one of the problems with Islam is that unlike Judaism and Christianity, or Confucianism, or Buddhism, or Hinduism, or Shinto, or Norse and Graeco-Roman pre-Christian traditions, it promotes the UNCRITICAL, UNANALYZED rote memorization of the sacred text and its MOST LITERAL INTERPRETATION as the "holiest" way of accessing the contents.
Works as old as these need to be carefully presented in their proper historical & practical context. Not merely put out there with a few Glossary entries and a small map: EXPLAINED.
Folks, if I might address you in that quintessentially American way: look at how much energy we have expended today -- and shall expend for perhaps weeks -- dissecting a single speech in Cairo given by a single prominent man (not even a prophet!) for about an hour's time. Recorded precisely and carefully transcribed. And this is just a political speech, not "revelation"!
How can anyone imagine a sacred text dating back hundreds of years (1200+ in the case of Islam, almost 2000 for the Christian Gospels, perhaps six or seven thousand for the Torah) can simply be accepted, after so much time, without any explication or commentary or elucidation or clarifying remarks from actual well-intentioned authorities WHO DESIRE PEACE AND PROSPERITY FOR ALL HUMANITY (including its women and its children, its infants and its elders, its various affinity groups, professions, nations, ethnicities, neighbourhoods, businesses?)
God gave us the gift of Language and Logic. Why is it wrong to ask for it to be used MORE rather than less to advance the understanding of sacred texts by those to whom they are sacred?
How can anyone imagine God would make a human life, but it would only really "count" if it was an adult male and conformed to 8th century Arabian ideas about manhood?
And of course, if you do not actually even believe in God at all, in any shape or form, the idea of sticking to these 8th century principles becomes even more absurd, and hugely inefficient. Undeniably so.
Which shall it be, Mr President? The 8th century? Or the 21st?
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149. At 8:05pm on 05 Jun 2009, john-In-Dublin wrote:
""# 81 AmericanSportFan wrote:
"I too don't know what to make of MarcusArilius."
I would suggest ground beef.
Except I'd predict a nasty, bitter aftertaste....""
+
I would suggest chopped liver. Chopped liver is a common menu item in Kosher delicatessens in Britain, Canada, and the U.S.A. Chopped liver is often served with rye bread as sandwiches.
That it is not appreciated by everyone has given rise to the Jewish English expression "What am I, chopped liver?", signifying frustration or anger at being ignored on a social level.
An alternate explanation for the etymology of the "What am I, chopped liver?" expression is that chopped liver was traditionally served as a side dish rather than a main course. The phrase, therefore may have originally meant to express a feeling of being overlooked, as a "side dish"
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Notice how MagicKirin introduces the word "only" which does not appear in Simon21's original post #134. Why do some people insist on adding spin to everything?
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re: 96 Timothy The sentimentalization of Islam in the west is a powerful trend at this time. The idealizing of ANY group is a dangerous and foolish idea.
How exactly is "the West" sentimentalizing Islam?
And I would agree with your comment about the dangers of idealizing any group ... Israel included.
Yours,
Pinko
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#157. TrueToo: "I would never return to a place where I wasn't wanted."
Then how come you're still here?
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MagicKirin
"Why do people have to discount the U.S contributions in WW2."
You mean why do Europeans deny that if the US hadn't entered WWI, it would still be going on? Why do Europeans deny that the US was the decisive factor between the allies winning and losing WWII in Europe? Why do Europeans deny that the US won WWII in the Pacific. Why do Europeans deny that the US won the cold war? Because they are Europeans and to admit it is to admit that America is a far stronger and more important entity in the fate of the world than their pipsqueak Lillipution nations and cultures are. That without the colonial slave empires they conquered and expolited in past centuries they are nothing. That left to their own insanity they are dying on the vine. The truth is unbearable to them. It was they who invented Socialism, Communism, Fascism that devastated so many lives in the 20th century. It was their imperial empires that were responsible for many of the problems in the world today. And it was America that rejected all of it and carved its own new path. Don't you see the irrationality in many of their postings here which at once reject America and yet at the same time claim credit for having created it? Let them stew in their juices, their goose is almost cooked. So Briatin entered WWII to denfend Poland and having been on the winning side sold them out anyway. Who needs such loyal allies?
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re: 139 arclight "ASF, I don't know a Christian anywhere who believes in helping out Israel to bring about the Rapture of the Church."
I respect your statements, and your beliefs. I was raised in the Methodist tradition myself, and have an abiding and deep relationship with the synoptic Gospels.
But the fact remains there are many Christians who do see Israel as crucial to bringing about the final days.
An example here in the person of the Rev. John Hagee. Jerry Falwell was another example.
In additon, the Left Behind series of books have been phenomenally popular in the US, and elsewhere.
So while many Christians don't see the fate Israel as being crucial to bringing about the final days, it is also a fact that many do see Israel in this light.
A good introduction to dispensationalism in Wikipedia.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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Ref 161. MagicKirin
"It seems that some can give this country credit. We give more humantarian aid than any nation."
USA is way down the list of aid given as a percentage of GDP and per capita. Don't kid yourself.
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#142. Gary_A_Hill: "MarcusAureliusII . . . your posts amount to nothing but self-gratification."
I've always that that was in more senses than one.
#161. MagicKirin: "Why do people have to discount the U.S contributions in WW2."
Exactly who are these "people"? All of Europe acknowledges that American involvement was invaluable. What the British and others don't like is when Americans consider that they won WWII single-handedly - and that D-Day was solely focussed on US troops. It's rather like the American television broadcasts of the Olympic Games - one would hardly think that the rest of the world was competing. Americans (not all) tend to dismiss or ignore what the Allies did, forgetting that as far as Europe was concerned, the war started in September 1939 while the US still pursued her isolationist policy. As Marbles once commented, most Americans did not want to get involved, led by celebrities such as Charles Lindbergh and the likes of America First; had it not been for Roosevelt's foresight, it would have been American Next.
"It was a joint effort."
And too many Americans forget that.
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157, untrue.
"I would never return to a place where I wasn't wanted."
Your kidding, right?
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Well, I am from Europe (British) and you may be interested, Marcus, in parts of the advice given in 'Instructions for American Servicemen in Britain 1942:
'Neither do the British need to be told that their armies lost the first couple of rounds in the present war. We've lost a couple, ourselves, so do not start off by being critical of them and saying what the Yanks are going to do. Use your head before you sound off, and remember how long the British alone held Hitler off without any help from anyone.'
'Once again, look, listen and learn before you start telling the British how much better we do things. They will be interested to hear about life in America and you have a great chance to overcome the picture many of them have gotten from the movies of an America made up of wild Indians and gangsters. When you find differences between British and American ways of doing things, there is usually a good reason for them.'
We can all learn from our grandparents, eh?
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160. staph. aureus.
"The fact is that without the United States entry into WWII, the USSR would have been defeated by the Nazis."
Most unlikely. To defeat Russia you would have to occupy it and control it. Given the vastness of the country, and its population, it would not have been possible. So they might have taken some of the key cities, but they would not have been able to hold them.
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# 86 Macho Autisticus
Mmm. Tedious, irrelevant, stereotypical, semi-literate generalisations. That's not the Macho Autisticus we know and loathe.
Well, then again, come to think of it, yes it is.
One of the ironies is that he attacks my country, but I didn't attack his.
What Macho can never grasp is that we loathe him not because he's a typical American but because he isn't.
"Unlike inferior European countries....".
It really reminds one of nothing so much as Adolf rambling away in his bunker.....
And Macho, were I to be doubled over in Dublin, it would only be to puke in revulsion at your inane, fascistic, interminable rantings...
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134, Simon; 164, Magic.
I have to agree with Magic (strangely enough). I think that without America joining the Allies, Hitler would have won the war. Before we even entered the war we were sending vital supplies to Britain. Britain did not have the raw materials or the industrial capacity to wage a war on its own. There was no help from Europe which was effectively in Nazi hands And then we sent massive contingents of troops. Russia is another matter. I doubt Germany could have conquered Russia, but it is also unlikely that Russia could have single-handedly conquered Germany.
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176. correction.
In my last sentence I should not has said "single-handedly" because Britain was on the same side. But it is doubtful that Britain could have held out.
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# 106 Macho Autisticus II wrote:
"American Couch "Potatoe"
I see you learned to spell at the same school as Dan Quail [sic]."
Sorry, but I couldn't resist this - a sample of the gems of Macho Autisticus II - in less than 12 hours...
Isrealis (sic)
Existance (sic)
It's (sic)(meaning its, of course)
impovrished (sic)
Mollested (sic)
Widespared (sic)
Heare (sic)
BBC (sic) meaning 'The BBC' of course - bozo
pre-emminent (sic)
plaintif (sic)
Balkins (sic)
Inferred (sic) [He meant implied - of course]
Caucausian (sic)
expolited (sic)
Briatin (sic)
Denfend (sic)
Marcus Aurelius II (sick)
I'm rather reminded of something I saw on [US] TV years ago. There was a guy who claimed to 'channel' an interplanetary being. The problem was that this being, which could transcend the boundaries of time and space, didn't realise that 'phenomena' was a plural noun.
Similarly, this person, with his fascistic Hitlerite rantings, who considers himself the cream of the greatest education system in the greatest possible country on this or any other planet, who rarely misses a chance to sneer at the 'inferior' education in 'inferior' countries ['inferior' is a great favourite of his] - is semi-literate.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
# 160 Macho Autisticus II
"In fact many believe that if Hitler had listened to his generals and bypassed Moscow, He'd have defeated the USSR anyway"
"He'd"?!
Generally, the capital initial is only used for the personal pronoun to denote great respect if not adoration. In fact it's rarely used except when describing a God...
Ahhh - suddenly it all makes sense...
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The weekend hasn't even started yet, and the Roman Emperor himself
has got us sidetracked into talking about WWII already.
For what it's worth (and you don't know what I do for a living,
so add some salt):
1. It was very close in Russia. The Germans almost won. Yes, we sent
them some support. We were preparing to send 50 American divisions to
fight on the Russian side, but then the tide turned. My dad's unit,
an artillery battalion was sent to Wisconsin in the middle of the
winter to acclimatize. Then, the Russians turned the tide at Kursk,
and he transferred to a replacement pool. That was fortunate. His
artillery unit was sent to Anzio and all of his friends were killed.
2. We sent them, at great loss of life, supplies through Murmansk.
In fact, during 1942 we sent 1/3 of our war supplies to the British,
1/3 to the Russians, and 1/3 to primarily the Pacific. We lost a lot
of people in the Pacific.
3. If Russia had fallen, then the Axis would have linked up and that
would have been the beginning of the end for the Allies.
4. If we had, say, been repulsed at the Normandy invasion, then the
Russians may well have gone all the way to the channel. But, was the
Russian regime any better than the Nazis? So, the Western Allies saved
the world, not just from Hitler, but also from Stalin.
5. The war had many turning points and critical battles, and if either
of them had turned out differently, the world would probably be a much
worse place today. But, none of them were as important as the Battle
of Britain, where the British people were subjected to daily bombardment
while at any time they could have sold out their principles and caved in.
If you want to understand the whole story, then examine the crest of
this little ship.
I'll skip to the important part:
The Shield:
The cross of St. George and the fleur-de-lis are adapted from Churchill's augmentation on an inescutcheon on his ancestral coat of arms. Red is emblematic of valor and sacrifice. The red cross on the white field refers to the flag of St. George, who became the patron of the Order of the Garter in 1348. The gold lion on the red field recalls Great Britain's heritage. The lion embodies strength, courage and determination. The nebuly alludes to the sky or clouds and highlights Britain's taking of the full thrust of German airpower in the Battle of Britain. The stylized book underscores Winston Churchill's reputation, not only as a gifted statesman and inspiring war leader, but also a great orator and author who was awarded the Nobel Prize in literature. He unified the British people with his stirring oratory, energy and resolve.
If you happen to see the Winston, you may notice a small ensign
flying on it. That happens to be Sir Winston's ensign for the
First Lord of the Admiralty. He gets his paycheck from a new
employer, but he still has his old job. And if you happen to hear about
Sir Winston over the next few decades, it's probably because he's doing
what he's always done best: defending freedom at some remote place on
the globe.
Why, he just happened to pop up here.
And, so, tomorrow, when we remember so many who did not come back,
I'd appreciate it if even certain reincarnated Roman Emperors could
show a little respect, not just for our fallen, but those of our
closest friends and allies, from whatever land they may have been.
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Guns, wonderful post.
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178, John
106, "American Couch 'Potatoe'"
"I see you learned to spell at the same school as Dan Quail [sic]."
The criticism of Dan Quayle's spelling was in error. "Potatoe" was an alternate and more archaic spelling at the time. It was not incorrect.
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Marbles, he corrected a boy for spelling the word less archaically. The boy was correct and Quayle was wrong to tell him he was wrong.
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#169. chronophobe: "the fact remains there are many Christians who do see Israel as crucial to bringing about the final days. An example here in the person of the Rev. John Hagee. Jerry Falwell was another example."
You quote Jerry Falwell as an example of true Christian ministry? The man who said "AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals", "Billy Graham is the chief servant of Satan in America", "I think the Moslem faith teaches hate" and other hateful and ignorant remarks. Likewise Hagee called the first Christian Church (Rome) "the great whore", the "apostate church", the "anti-Christ" and a "false cult system". It doesn't appear to me that anyone should take any notice of their views, let alone an endorsement of "final days". But I suppose they appeal to a certain segment of society which requires a rationale for their hate of others. I'd rather believe Jerry Springer than Jerry Falwell.
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Dear TrueToo, MAII, MK, Timothy R444
Guys / girls, some of you have made the assertion that any criticism of Israel is blind bias and anti-semitism.
This is to forget what went on in latest attack on Gaza, acts that can not be justified as defence.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/13/gaza-israel-war-crimes
This is to forget that the unconditional support of Israel while this goes on is inciting terrorism and hate from the Muslims- a risk to Europe as well as the USA.
So let me state that when I criticise Israel for the war crimes of the attack of December 2008 onwards, this is not out of anti-semitism; I'm more interested in self-preservation than the destruction of any other people, jews and muslims included. I'd rather no one died.
From one complex to another, cries of anti-Americanism just hold no weight with me.
We distinguish between government policy and its people. If ever you read anything blatantly attacking the American people, you can give it the same credibility as merited by one of MAII's posts on declarations of war on Europe- nil.
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"The criticism of Dan Quayle's spelling was in error. "Potatoe" was an alternate and more archaic spelling at the time. It was not incorrect."
My OED says that the last known spelling with an 'e' was back in 1880; a little before Mr Q and Mr & Mrs Q before him!
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Please, please, PLEASE BBC, will you make discussing WW2 an infringement of forum rules. For the love of God show some pity.
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187, David.
That is the OED. I can remember being in elementary school when the final "e" was still being used. It may have gone out of fashion in Britain before it did in America.
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Queen Georgette III;
"Once again, look, listen and learn before you start telling the British how much better we do things."
That was an attempt to overcome the inherent antipathy Americans have towards Europe because we had an alliance of necessity in a time of a war of survival. This self deprecation went all the way up to Eisenhower and his staff which had to put up with a lot of British idiocy. Keeping the alliance together was so important for winning the war, it took precedence over wanting to tell the Brits what we thought of them. That's all that meant.
"They will be interested to hear about life in America and you have a great chance to overcome the picture many of them have gotten from the movies of an America made up of wild Indians and gangsters. When you find differences between British and American ways of doing things, there is usually a good reason for them."
But we are made up of wild Indians and gangsters. Don't you watch the news? We are the dregs of other societies. We are largely the descendents of people who were a) native uncivilized heathens and b) those other nations considered their trash to be kicked around, condemned to live miserable lives, exploited, allowed to die, or killed with impunity just because of who they were. We should never forget our roots, it's who we are and what we have in common with each other. We are not nobility, we are the castaways of other nations and their descendants...and their revenge. No need to apologize for it either.
"We can all learn from our grandparents, eh?"
My grandparents left Europe one day never to return to that accursed place. They didn't have to tell me, I saw it and I understood it. I went for a good long first hand look to see it for myself and then I understood why. The day at the Rathskeller left no doubt in my mind, it was a mistake for America ignore Washtington's warning and to ever have gotten involved with Europe, to ever have defended it against anything. It hasn't changed. No fate is too terrible for it.
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"I'd sooner go to war against Britain again than see the US try to push the Israelis around. We don't treat our friends that way." by MAII
Such friends who deliberately attacked a US ship, the Liberty, and sank it, and then machine gunned American sailors struggling to survive in the water! You always cry for revenge or strong action against America's foes, how should we deal with the actions of this friend? You decry the weakness of Obama and democrats dealing with US challengers abroad, how weak was the US response to this atrocity?
Had I been president at that time, I would have parked the 6th fleet off the Israel coast and demanded the persons ordering the attack and the captains of the ships doing the machine gunning be turned over to the US and blockaded Israel until that happened. From the atrocities of Irgun, to USS Liberty, to some actions taken against Palestinians, Israel's hands are far from clean. Not that I would trust Hamas or other terrorist/hate groups. This is a perfect example of what happens when the moral high ground is abandoned for short term aparent advantage [Neocons and torture fans take note].
I don't know if reconciliation is possible, but I hope Obama is successful [as I have hoped for every US President, Republican or Democrat].
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189 -
You may have had an elementary school teacher who didn't know how to spell. According to my American dictionaries/etymology, potato was never spelled with an "e."
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Ref 181 gunsandreligion
Was that Ft. McCoy, Wisconsin where your father trained? It was also a major deployment center during the Persian Gulf War.
In Rememberance
On the beaches of Normandy, one fateful day in June, thousands of small red pools emptied into rivulets that became freshets growing into rivers of blood racing thick and deep into the surf-tossed channel to become pounded into pink foam. Does it matter from what nation the fallen, well-spring hailed? Is the blood of one, less red and less precious as that of another?
Did the soldier die so we, the living, could quibble over who was the bravest and the best? No. The soldier died because he did not want his brother to die. The soldier gave his life so that we would learn a better way to live.
We, the living, have betrayed the soldier who gave his full measure in his youth while we grow fat and old in our comfortable homes. We still lust for the blood of more young men and women so we can wave our flags and shout to the wind that God is on our side.
We betray the worthy.
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"Islam paving the way for the European Renaissance"? Another flat-out misstatement of history: one that I fear shall now find its way into my son's high school history books in California..." by maria-ashot
While some of the criticisms of Islam are true, they are mixed with ignorance/falshoods like this quotation. Have you heard of the crimes committed by "Christians?" These includes the Inquisitions, witch burning, anti-Jewish persecutions, Protestants and Catholics killing each other in large numbers. The Muslims in Egypt and Spain preserved Greek and Roman knowledge and added to it. While European "Christians" refused to bathe and slaughtered each other, the Muslims practiced cleanliness and toleration.
Unfortunately, it is now the West that practices toleration and promotes human rights that Muslim countries appear indifferent to. But that does not excuse ignorance or misrepresentation of the historical facts.
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ref #186
I read your link.
Absolutley no credibility in it.
The Hamas terrorists were the one using the civilians as human sheilds. The U.N refused to notify a member state where the terrorist were.
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ref #170
Don't kid yourself GDP is irrelvant.
It total amount that matters and that figure does not include transport cost.
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193, Publius, I don't know, he never told me. He was a pretty lucky guy.
At first he was slated to become an officer and sent to artillery school,
but they decided that they had enough officers and so he was put in the
replacement pool, and received some training for duties in an engineering
battalion. He arrived in the UK in 1944, transiting on the Queen
Mary. He told me that everybody was seasick. After sitting around for
a few months, he was assigned to the 78th infantry division, and put
on a crew assembling something called a "Bailey Bridge" at Remagen. Shortly
after they got the bridges up, the main one collapsed.
I asked him one time if he had ever seen any Germans, and he said that
they were running away, so he probably arrived just after the bridge
had been taken. Apparently, the Germans threw everything they could
at the main bridge to knock it out, but they didn't have smart bombs,
so they failed.
After VE day, his division was in transit for operation Coronet, the
invasion of Japan, but when Truman ordered the bomb to be dropped,
the invasion was cancelled, and he became a Democrat for a time.
To this day his favorite day in history is VJ day.
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I've stayed away from this subject for a long time, but repeated questions have worn down my discretion...
Marcus Aurelius II is a net-troll. He gets his jollies making people angry, and will go to any extent and say anything likely to irritate, frustrate, but better if he can infuriate. These isolated personalities feed on anger, and reacting to them just brings them back hungrier than before. The point is never the discussion, it is the power to manipulate an audience, to be as much as possible the center of attention.
MAII happens to be well suited for the micro-climate of this blog - he has a wide range of experience, and could use the language well if he wished. You can tell he is here for the fires he can light and gorge on, by the way he breaks from the subject at hand, the regular shifts to ad hominems, and the persistent use of incendiary language when it has nothing to do with his point.
The best way to deal with this sort is for everyone to agree to totally ignore them. Second best, but still effective and more fun, is to be patiently and patronizingly nice to them. Drives them mad, and they go off seeking more exciting circles of Hell to play in.
But perhaps this group likes to have him around - like the peppers in the chili, or in the curry, he flavors everyone and acts as a not-so-mild stimulant to the digestion, err - cogitation.
As you like it, so shall it be here -
a mere curmdgeon
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Marcus reminds me of a big monkey man
Aye aye aye, aye aye aye
Tell you baby, you huggin up the big monkey man
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j38ae8229mQ
Now I know that, now I understand
You're turning a monkey on me
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McJackarse;
That was a friendly fire mistake. We make them ourselves. Everyone does. I'd be more concerned about the kidnapping of American Navy servicemen by the British Navy. That was not an accident. Neither was burning down Washington DC. When exactly did we make Britain pay for that non-mistake?
Salami Super-silly-ous;
"This is to forget that the unconditional support of Israel while this goes on is inciting terrorism and hate from the Muslims- a risk to Europe as well as the USA."
Then American had better learn to defend itself. Osama Bin Laden himself said that the reason he attacked the US was because US troops were stationed on sacred Saudi land (protecting his family from Saddam Hussein.) If the US had to worry about who would become its enemy if it took a political position, then it would have to withdraw from the entire world because whatever it does, it will make an enemy of someone. I'm not so sure that's not a bad idea though. Disengage, isolate, and let the rest of the world go to hell. Sound's good to me.
As for Europe, I couldn't care less what happens to it. When the whole world believed Saddam Hussen had WMDs and was going to use them on the US, most Europeans didn't seem to care what happened to America. And then they were angry that America had the audacity to pre-emptively fight back without their permission. To hell with Europe.
Although you and a lot of European America-bashers refuse to recognize it, the US policy in the middle east has had the overwhelming support of the American people. It is one and the same like issues in no other country on earth. Most Americans supported the invasion of Iraq, give unconditional support to Israel, and supported the attack on Afghanistan. 10% who are Evangelicals believe Ariel Sharon suffered a stroke as god's punishment for giving Gaza back to the Palestinians. Americans also largely still support keeping GITMO open for business. I see Angel Eyes was unwilling for Germany to accept any of the detainees that might be released. How about Britain, let's send them there. If one of them causes another 7-7, Britain can deal with it. President Obama will be treading on thin ice if he pushes Isreal hard. Those approval numbers in the polls have a funny way of dropping like a rock when Americans don't like what some politician is doing.
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Some of you people are so pathetic, you'd make a federal case out of a one line quip about the way Dan Quayle spelled potato. Get a life.
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189. At 02:07am on 06 Jun 2009, allmymarbles wrote:187, David.
"That is the OED. I can remember being in elementary school when the final "e" was still being used. It may have gone out of fashion in Britain before it did in America." - and -
192. bere54 wrote:189 -
"You may have had an elementary school teacher who didn't know how to spell. According to my American dictionaries/etymology, potato was never spelled with an "e." "
Marbles, you and I have been accused before of being from the same, remote generation. I distinctly remember reading Thoreau and Emerson as great, relevant literary lights, and being taught that potato could be allowed an 'e' if I was so inclined. Chaucer and Mallory were not strangers to us.....
KScurmudgeon,
mellowing
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"Remember WWII started in 1939. The US didn't bother to get involved, despite being told of the evils of the nazi regime, until 1941." by simon21
Having taken the other side to task for misrepresenting history, I must, regretfully and politely, take issue with this oft repeated statement. The American people, not just their elected officials, felt they had been dragged into a European war for imperial European gains in colonies etc. in WW I. That war was a foolish fruit of monarchy, aristocracy, imperial rivalry and greedy nationalism. The US is a democracy, and though Roosevelt saw that we would have to defend ourselves and the West [Britain] at some point, he was only able to provide limited resources while trying to build up US force. Those [Europeans and Brits] who continue to brandish this vile canard ignore quite a few facts:
1. The American attitude resulted from participation in WW I.
2. The results of the Versailles Treaties [which can be said to have given rise to World War II] was a triumph of British, French and Italian imperial colonial aggrandization. And Americans did not fancy having spent their blood and treasure for this.
3. The requirement that our democratic republic's government obey the citizens [judging by refusal to allow referenda on a European constitution Europe still doesn't really understand this idea].
4. The US had a much smaller and weaker standing army [both in actual number and equipment as well as in proportion to size and industrial power] than any other major nation at the start of the war.
5. Even with the attack on Pearl Harbor rousing the population to fight, it took well over a year to mobilize.
6. Irish and German Americans were not keen to rush to the help of Britain and France for obvious reasons and they were citizens with votes.
Finally, my father was lucky to have survived the Normandy landing. He earned 5 major battle stars and a purple heart. He was the last survivor of his unit in the Battle of the Bulge, a master sergeant, who rounded up some other strays and continued to fight. His post war condition was such that I have few happy memories of him. The scale of America's total mobilization is exceeded only by that of Russia, and I have never seen any realistic projection that a victory over the Axis could have been accomplished without US participation. Some American posters go too far, they often sound boorish and hypernationalistic to European readers. However, most Americans can relate stories like the one above, and thus even those like myself who have enjoyed visits to Europe and embrace our European roots [mine are Irish, German and British-think about that!] do find such slights callous, ungrateful and insulting.
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192, Bere.
Try another source.
I am probably a lot older than you. In my day teachers were well educated and generally came from a higher class of society. They had to pass exams on all sorts of things, even the proper pronunciation of spoken English. (How many would fail that today?) If you have no faith in today's teachers it is because many of them have not even mastered the rudiments of grammer, let alone proper speech and spelling. One of my daughter's teachers even told her she was not spelling her own name correctly, even though it is an old biblical one, with the normal spelling, and not one of these made up names so in vogue today. In the 1930's they were just beginning to drop the "e" in potato. I remember it well because language, in all its aspects, has always fascinated me..
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192, Bere, further.
For decades I never found a single error in language in The New York Times. Not even a typo. After I returned to the States, after a long period abroad, there were mistakes galore in both spelling and meaning. Even the crossword puzzle editor, Short, makes errors. Some of the announcers on news programs sound semiliterate and mispronounce relatively common words. All of this horrifies me. There seem to be no standards, and this is true in a population which is presumably better educated. Why would anyone mutilate a language as rich as English?
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126 yes auraless I am still making useful and enjoyable pieces from trash.
Many others here have been similarly engaged in responding to your posts.
You are truly amazing in your pretence of ignorance.legion.
Just incase you are thinking that your description was somehow a
http://nw-arts.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=14
http://www.etsy.com/shop.php?user_id=5716589
How is the nuclear industry these days? Shame the shielding wasn't up to standard back in your day eh?
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202, KS.
"Marbles, you and I have been accused before of being from the same, remote generation. I distinctly remember reading Thoreau and Emerson as great, relevant literary lights, and being taught that potato could be allowed an 'e' if I was so inclined. Chaucer and Mallory were not strangers to us....."
And Latin too, I'll bet. By reading the original ancient works we learn that the nature of man has not changed at all.
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blacksmith jack, while my ignorance is a pretense, I'm convinced yours is genuine. Where else but in America could someone make a living from hammering old steel garbage cans and the like into lawn ornaments that vaguely resemble amphibians? Could someone survive on that in Merry Olde? How sad your pet keeps you from your heart's desire of returning to King Arthur's Court. My offer stands, I can pull a few strings for you that will waive your pet's quarrantine requirement so we can get you out of Oregon and back to where you want to be, home just in time for tea.
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J in D you forgot the " fist"
Gary I see your fiiiinnnaaallllyyyy getting it " If you don't want to get your message across, then your posts amount to nothing but self-gratification."
143Q where did marcus make racist comments?
A In the posts that were moderated.
I know I complained.
And you know but can't remember or chose not to see. I suspect marbles will remember a few and Ed for that matter.And now he has learned, as he says ,how to get around the mods. you read his admittance and still cannot get all that much of it but at least your getting somewhere. keep going child.
Interested. nice post defending Brits who at least did not make it so hard for the polish to stay in the UK after the war. Something that America has been reluctant to do with some of the people that helped them in Afghanistan and Iraq.
148 scots git. my you have let your side down. up till now we have all been thinking how nice and well educated the scots are.
Unless your really a southerner trying to give them a bad name.
Israel is by NO means a secular state?
this is the decleration as appears in the Israeli gov website
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Guide+to+the+Peace+Process/Declaration+of+Establishment+of+State+of+Israel.htm
Note this line and tell me what it means............"HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, TO BE KNOWN AS THE STATE OF ISRAEL."
back to abusing legion J in D I am glad you have seen fit to engage in the only worthwhile conversation with the many faces of hate. Laugh and ridicule. keep it up.
Note the exposee of jacksforge.;) what a hoot.
Now I see legion is at it again providing a MATT for everyone to walk all over.
196 skurmudgeon >i think you have him summed up well. I would add that some of the "others" here are part of the same wind up merchant.
Shame the Mods never figured it out.
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PS kurmudgeon "like" lol some maybe but really we went through a discussion on the virtues of the virtue-less in the freedom thread (i think you missed that one).
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207. At 04:21am on 06 Jun 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
"And Latin too, I'll bet. By reading the original ancient works we learn that the nature of man has not changed at all."
Ah, good bet. My first Latin teacher was Beverly Bessie Burlingame, who always wrote with a fountain pen full of purple ink; full, round letters which back-to-back resembled her form. And this was in a public school, an obscenely large one, back in the day....
Now I teach my granddaughter the meaning of words, where there are worlds to explore back, back to the very beginnings of human kind.
KScurmudgeon, kindly
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#208. MarcusAureliusII: "I can pull a few strings for you that will waive your pet's quarrantine (sic) requirement so we can get you out of Oregon and back to where you want to be, home just in time for tea."
No strings needed - the UK now accepts animals which have had rabies shots. In the unlikely event that you ever visit the shores of the Mother Country, you'd probably be required to have one as well.
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on the end times . watch Christian broadcast network and there is plenty of end times and israel linking going on..
171 DC was it MA I was meant to meet on sertsy for a typing blog bog off or was it the gherkin?
on the topic of vegetables it is funny that those that live by the sword of grammar trolling die by the sword of grammar trolling.
revel in ignorance it gives more lee way that's my method;)
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re: 185 David_Cunard You quote Jerry Falwell as an example of true Christian ministry?
Quite the opposite. I was writing in response to arclight @ 139, who maintained he did not know of any Christians who see the destiny of Israel as crucial to their end of time beliefs. I drew attention to Falwell (now dead), Hagee, (and would have mentioned others like Pat Roberston as well, had I not been lax) as examples of Christian Ministries that see the promotion of Israel as being a key component of their eschatology.
Let me be clear, I do not share that view.
Further, you are quite right regarding their views on homosexuality. I find their views to be ignorant.
Yours,
Pinko
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181. gunsandreligion,
There is no doubt about the greatness of Britain during WWII, led, as it was, by the great Churchill. Unfortunately Britain today is a pale shadow of its former self. The Labour Party and its PR department, the BBC, have done much to foster this sharp decline.
I recall the British sailors captured without a fight by the Iranians in Iraqi waters and Britain's limp-wristed response.
198. KScurmudgeon,
You are capable of making sense, but you wrote total rubbish in that comment - as people generally do when they try to play amateur psychologist:
The point is never the discussion, it is the power to manipulate an audience, to be as much as possible the center of attention.
Really? In fact MarcusAureliusII responds to others' points far more than a lot of people here - who write comment after comment containing nothing but insults directed at those they disagree with. I have seen thread after thread here with those who present unpopular opinions maintaining an even keel while being peppered with insults by the real trolls in their baying pack. A troll is not defined exclusively as a minority voice on a blog.
167. David_Cunard wrote:
Then how come you're still here?
Because this blog is not administered by people such as yourself, thankfully.
172. allmymarbles,
Unfortunately you and many others here fail to understand the nature of the Internet and that this is not your blog. If the BBC banned me I would stay banned, unlike jacksforge and Xie Ming, who sneak back in disguise.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Oh happy days for happylaze. Get that jacksforge, "No strings needed - the UK now accepts animals which have had rabies shots."
Now there's nothing keeping you here jack blacksmith. Want help packing your bags? You can leave those redwood forests in Oregon behind forever for the jungle of Liverpool or Blackpool, or Nottingham, or Birmingham or wherever you said you were from. I'll bet your friends back there can hardly wait for your homecoming. I'll just bet they'll throw a party for you at the local pub the day you arrive.
Canard, no chance I will ever set foot on that sceptered Isle, that plessed blot. I have no desire to see it. Besides, I don't like warm beer. Have you ever thought of leaving that awful sunshine in California to return to that wonderful bleak dreary rainy London town? Maybe you and jacksforge could link up on the same connecting flight from JFK to Heathrow, compare notes on how happy you both are to finally be going home. Yeah, in both of your worst nightmares.
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215 being a perfect example of self defence as taught by legion.
Friday and already MATT is getting identity crisis going. LOL marbles you have raised the blood pressure itt seems and note the hypocrisy of the response.
"If the BBC banned me I would stay banned"
mods there it is . lets see how true he is.
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Happylaze I fully agree with you.;)
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Why thank you. did you know them two are the same person.?
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NO ! You're Kidding?
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Are you in disguise? Are you Xie?
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No I'm u
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LOL DC before you get there I see you have moved .. and I 'm a northerner now .does that mean I have to be stereotypically nice to all? I'd better leave.;)
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No .I'll leave . I insist.
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Too True;
I love it when people like Cursed Smudge say nasty things about me. It signifies that they've given up, acknowledged that they've lost the argument. But it comes as no surprise to me. After all I'm only about a hundred times smarter than they are. They are hardly a challenge. Take lostallmymarbles for example. She extols the virutes of Iran but does she live there? Nooooo, not on your life. And she knows full well if she was there, and she opened her big yap about Iran's government the way she does here in the US about the American government, she'd be right in that same jail cell or one just like it that the woman reporter just spent four months in. And take Canard or jack the blacksmith who hammers out frog things for lawns. They rant all the time about how lousy the US is and how only circumstance keeps them here but the mere thought of having to go back to living in the UcK to them is pure UgH. It must be so hard for them facing the fact that the place they live in the US is for them the best of all possible worlds when they hate everything it stands for that made it that way. And I just love pointing it out to them all the time. By the way all of you....your federal income taxes are still going to buy lots and lots of weapons for Israel. hahahaha. Next time they have a war with their neighbors, you're footing the bill...hahahahaha. Don't like it? Vote to change the government or if you can't accomplish that....leaave for somewhere else.
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Like happylaze
and 14allandall41
are not the same man
.. you must be twisted
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXRIQf1UG-o
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#200. MarcusAureliusII: "most Europeans . . . were angry that America had the audacity to pre-emptively fight back without their permission."
How can anyone "pre-emptively fight back"? Either it's a pr-emptive move (or strike), meaning without provocation, or it's returning the fire that another party has made. You cannot have it both ways. (Although Sam might think differently.)
#203. McJakome: "The American people, not just their elected officials, felt they had been dragged into a European war for imperial European gains in colonies etc."
Because you were but a child at the time, how could you possibly know that? Since communications were so very different in the 1930s, I doubt very much if the average Joe considered anything so sophisticated. As Marbles has written in the past, Americans were no keen on another war, but not because of anything to do with "imperial European gains". In any case, Britain already had the largest Empire in the history of the world and she hardly required domination of other lands. Germany was under the rule of Herr, not Kaiser, Hitler, which was not then a Monarchy, an institution which had been abolished in 1918.
#213. happylaze: "DC was it MA I was meant to meet on sertsy for a typing blog bog off or was it the gherkin?"
The pickle I think.
#214.chronophobe - Thanks for the clarification.
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lol DC that's right MA couldn't compete because he types one handed. that was it.
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Re 227
WhoopsSorry
No Snitching
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U14 cheers for the link
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230 I'm not fully on your wave though it looks good. no worries on the snitching.
I'm Harry Potter
But I bet that 14allandall41 says he is.
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He's right you know.
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http://nw-arts.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=132
http://nw-arts.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=132
here's what we look like
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The Daily Telegraph is out for blood right now, specifically the blood of the Labour Party and, as far as I can tell from where I sit in CA, the Obama administration. I'd be very careful how I'd read them if I were you. They are gutting Labour with a kind of "better the devil you know" thing--old corruption better than nouveaux corruption.
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226. MarcusAureliusII,
True. Allmymarbles and princess-on-a-pea would love people to believe their propaganda about Iran - they treat "their Jews" so well and how dare anyone suggest Jews in Iran are dhimmies and so what if a Muslim can't vote for a Jew and Jewish children have to go to school on their holiest day of the week, the Sabbath, and so what if a Jew inherits all his family's property if he converts to Islam. And how dare anyone speak of the Iranians as barbarians - after all they only slowly strangle schoolchildren to death for having sex, make it a capital offence for a Jew to support immigration to Israel and support terror against Jewish civilians in Israel and abroad.
As for the ex-Brits and current Brits telling everyone how wonderful Britain is, and that everything is going to be fine there, that reminds me of an old joke:
If you can see light at the end of the tunnel, you're facing the wrong way.
While corrupt politicians in European countries are giving up more and more of their sovereignty to faceless and corrupt bureaucrats in Brussels - probably against the wishes of the majority of their populations but we'll never know since they refuse to hold referendums - the US remains the country with the most respect for the rights of the individual. And the US remains a beacon of light in the darkness of this world.
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228. At 06:54am on 06 Jun 2009, David_Cunard wrote:
How can anyone "pre-emptively fight back"? Either it's a pr-emptive move (or strike), meaning without provocation...
A pre-emptive strike doesn't mean without provocation. Where did you get that idea? It means to strike your enemy as he's preparing to strike you.
A classic example of that was when Israel took out Egypt's air force on the ground in June 1967 as Egypt was preparing to attack. Egypt was broadcasting hysterical anti-Israel rhetoric on state radio, had closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping and massed troops and tanks in the Sinai. That in fact went way beyond simple provocation and was an act of war.
Israel hit first in a pre-emptive strike, and was completely within her rights so to do. The allegation from the Israel-haters that Israel caused the Six-Day War is rubbish borne out of their bias.
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#217. MarcusAureliusII: "I have no desire to see (Great Britain). Besides, I don't like warm beer."
There hasn't been "warm beer" for many, many years. Even forty years ago, Guinness, Harp Lager and other European beers (pilsners) were served at cellar temperature or chilled. You've been watching too many old black and white movies.
"Have you ever thought of leaving that awful sunshine in California to return to that wonderful bleak dreary rainy London town?"
No - but London is not always bleak, dreary or rainy. Not having been there, you wouldn't know the beauties of an English spring nor the glories of an English summer.
"Maybe you and jacksforge could link up on the same connecting flight from JFK to Heathrow, compare notes on how happy you both are to finally be going home."
If we were to meet, the departure would be from LAX. I can't speak for my compatriot, but home is where the heart is, and it's not in London.
#237. TrueToo: How can anyone "pre-emptively fight back"? Either it's a pr-emptive move (or strike), meaning without provocation...
"A pre-emptive strike doesn't mean without provocation. Where did you get that idea? It means to strike your enemy as he's preparing to strike you."
And I thought I was going to be ignored by you. In the case of the Iraq invasion (the point being made by MAII at #200) that nation was not preparing to strike the USA, so there was no provocation. Read before you write.
#215 Then how come you're still here?
"Because this blog is not administered by people such as yourself, thankfully."
But you wrote "I would never return to a place where I wasn't wanted." If you haven't noticed, your views are hardly welcomed, except by a couple of equally pig-headed, anti-European posters.
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TrueToo|ooTeurT
Live Good and
Not Backwards
That Spells Evil
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Well, a quotation springs to mind from my childhood:
'You could not fence with an antagonist who met rapier thrust with blow of battle-axe.'
I also held out a long time before slipping in a moderate two pennies' worth but now I am back to following KSCurmudgeon's advice at #181.
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# 215 TrueToo wrote:
"198. KScurmudgeon,/You are capable of making sense, but you wrote total rubbish in that comment - as people generally do when they try to play amateur psychologist:"
Well - no he didn't write "total rubbish". Might I cordially suggest that what you mean by "total rubbish" is "something I happen to disagree with".
Personally, I think his comments on MA II were extremely accurate, perceptive and well written - and fully justified by the facts of the case. How exactly, might one ask, do you know they are "total rubbish"? Have you met MA II? I haven't, thank God, so judge him by the poison he churns out interminably here.
Even though KScurmudgeon's recommendations for dealing with MA II- to either ignore him or be nice to him - are far from my natural inclination, I accept that there is much wisdom in the suggestion of 'Don't Feed The Troll', even if I find it hard to follow sometimes.
At the risk of being accused of 'amateur psychology', which, along with 'rubbish' appears to be a favourite comeback of yours, might I suggest that your defence of MAII is primarily because he's broadly on the same side as you - the Right, of course - although rather further along [I hope].
You read like a Daily Mail editorial - the BBC are lefties, blame Labour, boo to the EU, it's all gone wrong since the War, the Limpwristed Leftie PC "Dears" are coming to get us etc etc.
He reads like the same thing but on an overdose of steroids and amphetamines - Europe is doomed to third-world status, Europeans are scum, let's nuke Iran, then Pakistan, then the rest of the Muslims, then London, we're at war with the UK etc etc.
Yes I've attacked him personally, but he clearly deserves it - he started with the personalised vicious invective, and resorts to it at every opportunity.
Anyway, there I go again, giving him attention. That's just what he wants.
Mustn't feed that darn troll...
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#155
Why does Richard refer to himself in the third person? Scary........
#209
What is so hard to understand? Are you confusing the Jewish Nation with Judaism? Don't worry, laddie. It's a rookie mistake. Go spend some time in the library.
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My # 179 got "referred to the moderators"
My first reaction was to be surprised that there are some things you cannot say about Macho Autisticus [all of them justified - of course].
Fortunately I'd kept a record. I'd referred to # 138 Macho Autisticus II - "In fact Europe is nothing, it's an overly self indulgent, self centered, overbearing, intolerent (sic) failure of a place in steady decline ...It is going down for the count. Nothing and nobody can save it."
All I did was suggested rewriting the sentiment slightly - which included inserting the name of Macho Autisticus II instead of 'Europe'.
However it seems he can routinely and repeatedly [and indeed interminably] attack and smear a continent of c 3/4 of a billion people - but I cannot use exactly the same words about him.
Go figure.
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238. David_Cunard,
Let's try this again. I realise that you were speaking about Iraq but here's what you wrote:
Either it's a pr-emptive move (or strike), meaning without provocation, or it's returning the fire that another party has made.
Sometimes in life you have to be gracious enough to admit your error. You made it quite clear that you didn't understand the meaning of a pre-emptive strike. Well, now you do though I doubt you'll thank me for it.
Re Iraq, the country had attacked Israel numerous times and Saddam Hussein was encouraging terrorism against Israeli civilians by rewarding the families of suicide bombers with large sums of cash. When Israel took out Iraq's nuclear reactor, rather than allow a brutal anti-Israel dictator like Hussein to develop nuclear weapons, that was a pre-emptive strike. Iraq's (non-nuclear) missile attacks on Israel during the first Gulf War demonstrated the wisdom of that pre-emptive strike.
And I thought I was going to be ignored by you.
Sorry to disappoint you. I try not to make general rules about ignoring people, tempting though it sometimes is, since they might say something I want to respond to.
If you haven't noticed, your views are hardly welcomed, except by a couple of equally pig-headed, anti-European posters.
I couldn't care less that I'm not welcomed by the anti-America and anti-Israel obsessives commenting here. Yes, you are in the majority but again, you are not the hosts of this blog. Try to work out the difference.
If I come across poisonous propaganda and lies as I surf the Web I try to oppose it. I can't help you with your problem with the concept of free speech.
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195 - That's right, my link to a national newspaper quoting people on the ground from several sources (incl. UN and AI) is a terrible source. Of course it is all lies!
Let me go get a vague blog quote from some kid half way around the world instead, we saw that that constitutes a valid source in your blinkered eyes from Justin's last post.
You must embarrass those that share your views. How is anyone supposed to take what you say seriously?!
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MA2 to Happylaze: "I can pull a few strings for you that will waive your pet's quarrantine[sic] requirement."
Is that how your border controls work? It explains a lot. There's public outrage in Britain about politicians claiming expenses 'within the rules but not in the spirit.'
I've just looked at another thread where MA2 complains about the BBC sending the satirical TV programme, "That Was The Week That Was" (TW3) in the 60's. America sent us "My Favorite Martian" in return!
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245. Swamilicious,
Your propaganda piece from McGreal (an anti-Israel obsessive) in the Guardian (an anti-Israel left-wing rag) is a little dated. Five months is pushing it a bit. And to present Amnesty International, the UN Human Rights Council and B'Tselem as objective commentators on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict perhaps demonstrates your sense of humour.
The debate has moved on a little. It has been established that the Israelis did not kill "40" people "in" the UN school but around a dozen people, most of them Hamas terrorists, outside the school after they had fired on the Israelis, drawing Israeli fire in response.
That said, it is possible that there were abuses. War is a dirty business. But don't you find it in the least strange that in that entire article there was no mention even of the possibility of Hamas being guilty of any crime when they forced their own civilians to act as human shields and murdered a number of Fatah supporters and kneecapped others? That's before we even get to the continual terror attacks by Hamas on Israeli civilians, borne out of their obsession to destroy Israel.
I guess you could claim that the topic was Israel, not Hamas, but feel free to scout for a comparable Guardian article pointing the finger of blame at Hamas. Could take a while.
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Ref 201. MarcusAureliusII
"Some of you people are so pathetic...." comes from the person who raised the topic in the first place. Shot to pieces by his own hypocrisy. Hilarious! ;-)
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Ref 160. MarcusAureliusII
Marcus wrote: "The fact is that without the United States entry into WWII, the USSR would have been defeated by the Nazis."
How is that a fact? No wonder you're so confused.
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MarcusAurellius
MA wrote: "Can you cite even one instance in which I have even inferred that my opinions or prejudices are based on color or race?
Yes. Dozens of them, including religious, regional and national intolerance against Orientals, Chinese, Christians, Muslims, Africans, Arabs, Catholics, Slavs, South Americans, Mexicans, French, Californians, Canadians, Inuits, those from the Southern US States, Irish, Scots, English, Scandinavians, Seikhs.
The only groups of people he doesn't appear to slander are those who are not defined by race, religion, colour, nationality, region or ethnicity: NEO-CONS and the ISRAELI government. I seem to recall he has singled out Ghengis Kahn and Augusto Pinocet for particular praise, so his prejudice is not absolute.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
TT - I get the feeling anyone that criticises Israel is an 'anti-Israel obsessive', and that therefore anything they write can be dismissed as easily as that.
You wanted some Guardian finger-pointing at Hamas, well just recently they printed this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/01/hamas-middle-east-peace-talks-blair
Certainly no absolving of Hamas' actions here right? Hardly pro-Hamas is it? Well not to an objective reader like me, but I'm sure you can find the anti-semitism in it!
So the UN and Amnesty International all have an agenda against Israel. Why is this do you think?
So show me an objective piece from someone else on the ground that says 'I'm not sure what the UN and AI are referring to, I am on the ground and have seen nothing wrong, food can get in and out to the civilians without problem and the Israeli army are not wreaking indiscriminate havoc...'
Aren't the facts that more civilians were killed than militants? Are you about to tell me that the Israel (and US as it was their weaponry) don't have the capability of achieving goals of defence without killing so many innocent people?
'War is a dirty business' and 'it was self defence' doesn't cover it.
And yes I too completely condemn any rocket fire from militants, but it doesn't warrant the extent of this death / destruction of the civilians / place
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Europe has moved on.America is still stuck in a time warp.China sells you the bonds,secured on your land.Advice,buy silver and dry food goods,there are more shocks to come.You are all in the rez now.Capital infrastructure projects planned,yeah,but at minimum wage.Hullo, wake up and smell the coffee.Times are achanging.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#252
Swamilicious,
The most recent casualty figures I can find were published on March 27th.
Total killed:- 1,166
Hamas operatives killed:- 709
Non-combatants killed:- 295
Men whose status not confirmed killed:- 162
(I.D.F. figures; source:- Jerusalem Post)
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ref #245
Well no suprise that my first reply #251 was blocked by the moderators.
How can the U.N be considered an objective source on the Mid-East? They sponser resolutions blocking free speech so it will not offend moslems. They have people assigned just to investigate Israel. The U.N workers in Gaza and Lebanon did not reveal missle locations to Israel and were willing to be human sheild for terrorist attacks.
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236.
If America is such a beacon of light, how come some of the original inhabitants of Turtle Island fly your flag upside down and refer to the country as the United Snakes? Not much joy there then?
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Justin, after a short absence prompted by a short trip to attend my grand daughter's high school graduation I perused through recent posts and found that your original thread has deteriorated into a series of personal charges, counter-charges, and the usual name calling.
It is time to come up with a different topic to debate. How about the domestic ramifications of President Obama's foreign policy shift? Consider this scenario: Israel, under pressure, launches a "pre-emptive" strike against Iran's nuclear facilities in response to President Obama's efforts to change the direction of our foreign policy from one of perpetual confrontration to one that promotes peaceful coexistence, cultural tolerance, and respect?
How about the huge job losses we are enduring? Is there conclusive evidence of government-sponsored infrastructure work? The real estate marker is showing signs of recovery, but is it real and sustainable or the result of opportunism and speculation?
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#193 publius
Thank you for that
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I don't think it's wise that the president addresses every single topic concerning the U.S. and it's relations in the Middle East. If you shove it all in at once they will choke. Baby steps. This box and it's contents are marked FRAGILE.
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"Because you were but a child at the time, how could you possibly know that? Since communications were so very different in the 1930s, I doubt very much if the average Joe considered anything so sophisticated. " in 228 by Cunard
Your posts have usually been factual and logical. I regret to say that this response was neither. If you took my post to be more of the usual [from some quarters] hyper-patriotic American bombast, then I apologize for giving you that impression. Please answer the following points related to your statement in 228:
1. Why do you assume I was even born then as I stated that my father had been seriously iunjured in the Battle of the Bulge?
2. Do you assume that we can only know that which we have directly experienced? Had you asked I would have told you that I have graduate degrees from respectable universities, one in history which includes historiography, the evaluation of text and schools of historical interpretation [please don't take offense if you already know this, others might not].
3. Are you a history denier? Do your history books not mention the division of Central Powers colonies among the victors? Do you not know that the extreme punitive measures dictated to Germany were major factors in the rise of Nazism [know is, admittedly, imprecise; there is ample analysis of the historical factors and more than one voice has stated the same conclusion]?
4. Are you, despite your generally educated and reasonable tone, really wedded to the idea that Americans are ignorant and rather simple? In the vicinity of my city there are almost 200 colleges and universities, two of which are generally included in the international top 10 [and Harvard is centuries old]. Lists of "world's best universities" are top heavy with American entries. I did not desparage European or British culture or education, so why this kind of slighting reply? I did not claim that Americans are the best educated in general, but you have implied that most Americans are and were significantly deficient.
5. In any country, sir, it is possible to find numbers of people who are insignificantly intellectual not to say insufficiently well educated and aware of the complexities of the world. America's elites were not less knowledgeable than those of other countries and appreciated what was going on. European [and, to be fair, American] imperialism and colonialism were debated in the papers as well as in elite circles, and Americans had a negative opinion of the results of Versailles. I admit that the failure of Wilson to pass the treaty was owing to politics, but politics in a country where the opinions of the populace often affect public policy.
5. Yes, Joe the Plummer is still around. Yes the politicians solicit the support of the working class as well as that of the elites. What is your objection to this? The people of the US, contrary to the opinion in certain quarters, are neither warlike nor militaristic nor imperialistic. It requires a great deal of persuasion to secure their support for foreign adventures. This persuasion may include misrepresentation as well as facts, to be sure, but the deciding factor is always that we have been attacked, that it is war for self-defence not aggrandizement.
To return to your point above. I was a history major and have read a variety of sources and points of view. The facts, sir, support my statements about the results of World War I having a significant negative affect on the US government's ability to join in World War II earlier on. There is even a conspiracy theory that Pearl Harbor was engineered to allow entry of the US into the war without further delay. I do not find the evidence of that persuasive or conclusive, however.
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241 John in Dublin.
A clever trick from the troll is to appear to be something else .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RitJe16c3sM
Note how confused on a later friday night the doormatt started getting confused with identities.
That and the various old points unmentioned for so long but back (in the wrong skin).
This animal feeds at both ends
PS TIMMMMAAYYYY is probably his armpit.( his character is the offended american) but when push comes to shove they all start getting confused.
It is no surprise that
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Salami Super silly-ous
"Aren't the facts that more civilians were killed than militants? Are you about to tell me that the Israel (and US as it was their weaponry) don't have the capability of achieving goals of defence without killing so many innocent people?"
That's about the size of it, especially when the enemy uses civilians as human shields. The enemy has given you a choice, either you kill their civilians to kill their fighters or they live to fight another day to kill your civilians. War is hell but that is what the Palestinians voted for, a government whose program was a war to destoy Israel. I know a lot of you Europeans out there think Israel has no right to exist and that forcing them to retreat behind undefendable borders is a clever legal ruse but that's not how the world works. Perhaps the Palestinians should vote for another govrnment if they don't like the sacrifices the policies of this government would impose on them. I haven't heard any significant numbers of them say they want a change in government though. So if they want a fight to the death, then they shouldn't complain when their own people are among the dead. And they shouldn't expect any sympathy from the outside world. You know they won't get any from me.
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243 John in dublin..
this allowing the smearing of continents but then referring to the mods when the ridicule is too much is the normal tactic of legion.
(though sometimes I think gary is protecting his pets)
Or else the questions I have been asking about the mods still holds.
Back to freedom.. Should everyone be allowed free speech every where at any time. Or should they be restricted.
I seem to be as offensive as legion but that ignores the typical belittling and incorrect comments that led to this point.
The total and unequivical support for Israel is what provoked my response . When people were being killed and MA was suggesting ways to kill more.
Suggesting blowing up sewer lines.
Feed the one and feed them all
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255 Scotch-Git - Irony doesn't convey well over the internet, so please tell me your quoting of the Israelis' own figures of Palestinian casualties is a joke!
256 MK - Go on, for a laugh let's have the sources!
I would also assign someone to look at Israel. Same goes for the US / UK in Afghanistan, common sense when dealing with military operations no?
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#244. TrueToo: "I try not to make general rules about ignoring people"
But you did, don't you remember, sweetheart? Perhaps that will jog your failing memory.
"You made it quite clear that you didn't understand the meaning of a pre-emptive strike."
The question to your comrade-in-arms was How can anyone "pre-emptively fight back"? You appear to be myopic; I am quite aware of what pre-emptive means, but I believe you mean incitement. With regard to Iraq and Israel, it is quite immaterial to the question I asked of MAII. Marcus is a big boy and can answer for himself; he doesn't require his alter ego to do so.
"I couldn't care less that I'm not welcomed by the anti-America and anti-Israel obsessives commenting here. Yes, you are in the majority"
I'm neither anti-America (if I was, I wouldn't have lived there for longer than you've probably been alive) nor anti-Israel. With regard to the latter, it's pity that Ed is not still posting because you two would be a real match.
"you are not the hosts of this blog."
I wouldn't be so sure - a number of posters consider that the BBC is both "anti-America and anti-Israel". Remember, free speech has different interpretations - and this is a British blog, a nation which, in that respect, has rather different rules to those in the USA.
#247. "the Guardian (an anti-Israel left-wing rag)"
It's never struck me that the well-regarded publication is anti-Israel; it most certainly is not "a rag" although you might apply that to the "red-tops" in the UK, one of them having the same ownership as Fox News and The New York Post.
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Former Vice President Gore has produced a well known piece, "An Inconvenient Truth." There are many inconvenient truths stoutly defended on this site by all sides. There are also brutal truths brutally defended and attacked. Both sides customarily resort to name calling and character assassination. Long ago I was taught by teachers and professors that "ad hominem" argument is never acceptable as it indicates likely flaws in the material proffered and renders exchange of meaningful communication difficult if not impossible.
Marcus Aurelius recently responded to my post with a curt [but possibly valid] rejoinder introduced by his signature personal attack. That the attack on the Liberty was a "friendly fire" or accidental action. This is belied by the machine gunning of survivors in the water. There can be not doubt that that would have been a violation of international law and generally agreed rules of war EVEN IF they had been waving PLA flags as they drowned. Perhaps it could be painted as an "act of mercy" to kill the "accidentally" imperiled American sailors by quick gunfire rather than slow drowning? This was nothing less than mass murder, ordered by the Israeli government against an ally, one more evidence of the propensity of Israel to do such things. Israel has a right to self defense, including use of lethal force, but not to mass murder whenever, wherever and against whomever it is convenient. With "friends" like this, do we need enemies? It is not just figurative to say that Israel bites the hand [to say nothing of arm, and neck] that feeds it.
I anticipate being called an anti-Semite, despite my support of the need for a state of Israel, my respect for Judaism, and my opposition to the anti Jewish and anti Israel rhetoric from all too many sources.
Israel cannot demand respect when it gives none, Israel cannot demand security when it offers none, Israel cannot act in an ethnocentric way while castigating others for the same offense. Israel cannot establish a theocratic state while accusing the Palestinians or others of the same, Israel cannot violate international law time after time and expect its accusations of violation of international law by others to be taken seriously. These accusations directed against Israel can, with equal justice, be made against many governments and entities. All must only "do unto others what they would have others do unto them."
I hope and pray that the uniquely qualified President of the US, Barack Hussein Obama, can, against all historical evidence, convince all parties to forgive, forget and start over with the good will necessary to resolve these issues.
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252. Swamilicious,
I didn't dismiss your original comment "as easily as that." I dealt with it. And I don't recall mentioning anti-Semitism. Your latest article is moderate by Guardian standards but a long shot from the hatchet job they did on Israel in January. Again, where is the comparable clamour from the Guardian against Hamas. Where is the detailed breakdown of the crimes the terror group committed in January?
I have followed Amnesty Internationals reports on Israel-Palestine and the pattern is boringly predictable: bash Israel first, loudest and longest and then include mild criticism of the Palestinians second, if at all. And I have heard AI head Irene Khan bash Israel on the BBC World Service while defending the easy ride she gives the Palestinians.
As for the UN, it cannot form a committee or a council on "human rights" without it being hijacked by the anti-Israel crew. And when the UN appoints a Special Rapporteur on Israel-Palestine, the position goes to anyone with proven anti-Israel credentials like John Dugard or Richard Falk. These two don't even bother to hide their anti-Israel agenda.
If you want to be taken in by a motley assortment like the UN, AI, Human Rights Watch and so on, feel free. But these are sources with specific agendas, and they ain't pretty. I wouldn't trust them to be even-handed enough to judge a dispute on a school playground leave alone the Israeli-Arab conflict.
Re the casualty figures, if you want to be taken in by sources like The Guardian, so be it. But you should at least be open to the possibility that you are being fed propaganda, at which the Arab side of the conflict excels and which the Western "liberal" left swallows hook, line and sinker.
See the figures provided by Scotch-git. The IDF were there. Those who were not should be cautious about accepting any source as authoritative as long as it suits their prejudice.
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"Those who were not should be cautious about accepting any source as authoritative as long as it suits their prejudice."
Indeed.
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#261. McJakome: Ref 228 "Your posts have usually been factual and logical. I regret to say that this response was neither. If you took my post to be more of the usual [from some quarters] hyper-patriotic American bombast, then I apologize for giving you that impression."
I did, and your apology is accepted. Nevertheless, I suggested that Americans at large were not concerned with the imperial expansion you had mentioned. Perhaps some scholars would have had that in mind, but not, for example, a factory worker, farmer or film star.
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268 TT - So let me get this straight, I can't provide references from international organisations as they are biased, but you tell me that we should all believe the casualty figures given by the Israeli army themselves?!?!
And I'm the one 'taken in'?
If you had a thief on trial would you take his word for how much he stole?
'The IDF were there' Oh well in that case! I'm sure while they were shelling buildings and the defenseless they were taking accurate numbers of whom they killed. Don't you think they had other things on their mind at the time than to take count?
What motive would they have for 'massaging' the figures after all?
And before you tell me they were not defenseless, consider that only 10 IDF men were killed (CNN) and that is INCLUDING the 4 killed in friendly fire (LA Times, taken for convenience from Wikipedia). A single NFL team would do a better job of defending themselves with their bare hands.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War
The UN and AI were there too, so their reports must be accurate as well? No, their reports don't count for you, yet you consider the IDF figures matter of fact.
Shocking!
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267 nice post.. On the anti jewishness. there has been none here that I have read yet.
I have seen a lot of people profess anger at truth being twisted.
Like your example of the US ship being sunk. Or many others in the past.
These are the same people that say the IDF can be trusted to give accurate reports on deaths.
That is like accepting the Sri Lankan Gov account .
These people would have the rape victim charged for striking back at their attacker.
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DC marcus is not a big boy . A big boy would not have to pretend to be others to get some agreement.(without at least being obvious about it).
I like the way you got TT to answer before rejoining as MA.
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yea , well said . Right on
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266. David_Cunard wrote:
#244. TrueToo: "I try not to make general rules about ignoring people"
But you did, don't you remember, sweetheart? Perhaps that will jog your failing memory.
I've never used that word on this blog or any other. You're mixing me up with someone else so it's your memory that is failing.
Regarding the anti-America and anti-Israel obsessives, I suppose I should have said, "They are in the majority here," thus not including you.
No, I'm not talking about "incitement," but I'm prepared to agree to disagree on the pre-emptive issue.
267. McJakome wrote:
Long ago I was taught by teachers and professors that "ad hominem" argument is never acceptable as it indicates likely flaws in the material proffered and renders exchange of meaningful communication difficult if not impossible.
I agree with you there. But you claim to support the establishment of Israel and to be against anti-Israel rhetoric and then you go on an anti-Israel rant?
I had a careful look at the Wiki entry on the Liberty. It's quite comprehensive, representing many facets of the debate from all sides and much contradictory evidence. Nowhere did I find any indication of sailors being machine gunned in the water by the Israelis, as you claim, though there is agreement by both sides that the Israelis offered help once they knew the ship was American. The offer was refused. I find it difficult to believe that the Israelis would have deliberately attacked an American ship. What could possibly have been gained by attacking their ally?
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#268 TrueToo
Anti-semitic? Since when were the Jewish people as a whole being discussed? From what I can tell, it's Israel the state that's being talked about - so an institution.
Also, if anyone who criticises the behaviour of Israel is anti-semitic, does that mean that anyone who criticises Arab countries is anti-Muslim?
Your post is farcical, it seems that any organisation that criticises Israel for brutally killing under siege civilians using the most terrible weapons is part of a left-wing conspiracy.... what a tired argument. You're saying in spite of what we saw we should celebrate the humane IDF and be grateful that Israel takes so much care in killing it's opponents?
Consequently, do you have the same venom for B'Tselem, Gisha, Physicians for Human Rights, Bimkom, Rabbis for Human Rights, Adalah, The Public Committee Against Torture, Yesh Din and Itach Women Lawyers for Social Justice are they part of the 'liberal conspiracy'? Are they anti-semitic even though they're Jewish organisations?
You use language like 'judging a dispute on a school playground'. No, unfortunately not just a dispute on a school playground. It was real human beings half starved and robbed of many necessities cowering in their refugee camps being mercilously bombed and shelled night and day.
You rightfully criticise the UN, although unfortunately for the wrong reasons. The UN is in the hands of a few powerful members - the most powerful being the US. Israel is therefore allowed to commit atrocities as it pleases providing the Americans are happy.
For example, Israel want to unilaterally attack Iran which is illegal and the UN would not accept it. Does this matter to Israel? I think we can probably agree that the answer is no. All that matters is whether the US gives the nod or not - oh, and perhaps provides the weapons.
Now, you'll be quick to jump on the fact that, I haven't criticised the Palestinians. Of course, they must stop firing the rockets, however, when they do, Israel still continues hostilities with bomb attacks, arrests, assasinations and of course killing the odd stone-throwing child.
So, until Israel stop and stop everything why are the Palestinian militants going to feel there's any point to not firing rockets?
By the way, to let you into a big secret, Hamas have said they will recognise Israel once Israel has recognised a Palestinian homeland. That sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
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extream sense.
The only sense. well said. shame the listener is deaf.
There has never been an argument from any poster saying that hamas should act the way they do. there have been many from the "zionists" who say that israel should go further.
They say attack palestinians for once.
I think all the attacks on them by the IDF make up for a few less words here.
I'd say Yes I will when Israel stops murdering. All the people killed in Israel by rockets in the last 8 years amounts to less than from one big indiscriminate 1000lb bomb.
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By the way, to let you into a big secret, Hamas have said they will recognise Israel once Israel has recognised a Palestinian homeland. That sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
A much forgotten point
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269. seanspa,
Believe what you want to believe according to your own prejudices if it makes you feel good.
271. Swamilicious,
I have been following the Israeli-Arab conflict for many years. Have you? Perhaps you've never noticed the propaganda and extraordinary exaggeration that comes from the Arab side. Remember Jenin? I recall Saeb Erekat claiming that the Israelis had massacred 500 Palestinians and even that grossly-inflated figure soon jumped radically. When the fog of lies and propaganda had cleared, it was established that around 23 Israeli soldiers and 50 Palestinians, most of them terrorists, had died in that particular clash.
The IDF is way more credible as a source than the anti-Israel crew represented by the likes of the UN and Amnesty International. I have given some evidence of their bias. Feel free to ignore it and continue with your stuck-record claim of their spotless integrity.
The Palestinians play the "International Community" like a fiddle. If you haven't realised that yet, you haven't been paying attention.
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TT, you have been posting here long enough to know that I am not 'pro palestinian', and not 'anti-israel'. If you cannot see why the IDF may be seen as something other than impartial when it comes to categorising casualties then you are the one with the prejudices. You truly are a buffoon.
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senseless, you left out the part about how the Jews control the media in America. How could you forget an important line like that one. It's part of the spiel, how Americans have been brainwashed.
Now who do you suppose would initiate the attack on Iran when it is perceived to be on the verge of acquiring nuclear weapons? The little Satan Israel? The great Satan America? Or perhaps it will be a coordinated effort. What do you suppose will be left of Iran after it's over. I wouldn't be investing in Iranian war bonds if I were you.
Hey jacks forge, does a steel lawn frog make a good target for bb gun practice? Can it be mounted on a swivel so that each time you hit it, it spins around? Can it be hinged on a spring so that when it's hit, it goes down like a duck in a carnival shooting gallery and then springs up again? According to the nuclear weapons archive, as of twelve years ago, the Jericho 2 missile launched in Israel could reach Teheran. What yield payload do you think it could carry that the Israeilis have? Do you think they have W88s like America does? It should be able to carry five of them in each missile if they have them. I'll bet when a steel frog gets hit by one of those it doesn't come back up again.
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More trailer trash talk.
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276. extremesense wrote:
...if anyone who criticises the behaviour of Israel is anti-semitic...
I never said that. Perhaps if you got your starting point right, the rest of your argument would not deteriorate into ridiculous exaggeration.
Here's what I have said:
The singling out of Israel for disproportionate criticism is often anti-Semitic.
I'll try to separate out a couple of points you have made from your emotional Israel-bashing rant and respond to them:
The UN is in the hands of a few powerful members - the most powerful being the US.
No, the UN Security Council is in the hands of a few powerful members who have veto power over Security Council Resolutions. Yes, the US vetoes resolutions against Israel but China, for example, vetoes resolutions against Sudan. The UN General Assembly is dominated by a baying pack of anti-Israel countries. Study the history of General Assembly anti-Israel resolutions if you want to know anything about that particular obsession.
...Israel want to unilaterally attack Iran which is illegal...
You have this back to front, as if Israel suddenly woke up one morning and decided it would be a good idea to attack "innocent" Iran. Iran has been attacking Israeli civilians for decades through arming, training and supplying Islamic Jihad, Hamas and Hezbollah terror groups. And Ahmadinejad continually threatens to destroy Israel. Try to understand that there is nothing "illegal" about self-defence. If Iran does not want to be on the receiving end of an Israeli strike, the remedy is quite simple: stop facilitating terror attacks on Israel, stop the war rhetoric and stop the production line for nuclear weapons.
Hamas have said they will recognise Israel once Israel has recognised a Palestinian homeland.
Where do you get this from? On the contrary, Hamas has insisted that it will never recognise Israel and will continue the "struggle" until the Jewish state is destroyed. Israel is not the problem. The problem is the inability of the Muslim world to accept the existence of the Jewish state on a tiny strip of land that was once Muslim, despite the fact that it was Jewish land way before Islam came into existence.
It is high time that the Muslim world made one compromise to demonstrate its willingness to see the peaceful resolution of the Israeli-Arab conflict.
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279 - TT
"The IDF is way more credible as a source than the anti-Israel crew represented by the likes of the UN and Amnesty International. I have given some evidence of their bias."
So you believe the army doing the killing and trying not to get killed were taking the most accurate survey. Every other report is biased, we can only trust the killers who have the most incentive out of ANYONE to show that they were acting legitimately.
I realise there is no changing your mind, but this quote alone discredits your posts for any observers.
Should we trust Hamas' figures for deaths caused by their rockets? No, and no normal person would trust it to be accurate.
You say you provided evidence, yet you give none whatsoever, not a single link or quote, just opinion.
You claim you've seen Irene Khan bash Israel, is that the evidence you refer to? If country X massacres country Y, country X will be 'bashed'. But when it is merited, can it still be called 'bashing'?
Palestinians only managed to kill 6 IDF fighters in the whole conflict. This you don't dispute. So what exactly was the threat to Israel from this entity that could only reply with 6 kills?
Consider that a rhetorical question, I think this discussion has run its course.
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280 Sean I remember locking horns with you when you were defending Israel last summer. It seemed to me you tried to defend Israel against the "venomous" attacks of me and Ed but eventually the Gaza conflict moved you to see the Palestinian side as having increased legitimacy.Or at least the right to claim abuse.
I see the trailer is full over there
incase anyone wonders about these frogs MA is not attacking the French as is usual.
but thinks his BB will effect
http://nw-arts.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=14
http://www.etsy.com/shop.php?user_id=5716589
Typical american when shown up they grab a gun and start threatening.
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"#261. McJakome: Ref 228 "Your posts have usually been factual and logical. I regret to say that this response was neither. If you took my post to be more of the usual [from some quarters] hyper-patriotic American bombast, then I apologize for giving you that impression."
I did, and your apology is accepted. Nevertheless, I suggested that Americans at large were not concerned with the imperial expansion you had mentioned. Perhaps some scholars would have had that in mind, but not, for example, a factory worker, farmer or film star."
And I accept your apology for having led me to think you might hold biased or untrue stereotypes about America and Americans. But, with all due respect, in which countries is your point here NOT true, and what therefore does it signify?
I could point out to you that the Spanish American War resulted from an explosion sinking a US warship, that the President did not want war with Spain, that the newspapers conducted nationwide anti-Spanish propaganda campaigns against Spain and, having turned public sentiment in that direction, let loose the dogs of war.
Do you maintain that Britain and European countries were usually or even sometimes so slavishly obedient to the sentiment of the public when conducting foreign adventures? Did the Emperor of Austria Hungary require public support in the dual monarchy to start World War I, or the British government to start the Boer, Crimean or other wars? I grant you that the US government [certainly the Bush administration and possibly that of FDR] can be accused of creating the public sentiment rather than following it. This publication once ran an article about large libraries in areas still inhabited by cowboys. Americans can usually read, have supported large numbers of public libraries and newspapers, have set up a phenominal number of colleges and universities [even in the hinterlands], and have often been aware of issues, particularly the issue of war vs. peace. There is an aphorism in the US, "All politics is local." Americans are politically aware of the effects of state and national decisions on their wellbeing, and since the War of Independence they have taken care to make their will known to their governments [NOTE I did not say 'to their rulers' because this notion is alien to our thinking!] I repeat my question, in which countries is it not true that people are likely to focus on local issues? And why do you assume against evidence to the contrary that they are unaware of or indifferent to international issues? In addition to the Spanish American war, you would do well to check the influence of American missionary activity on American foreign policy. Missionary societies flourish even today. They send missionaries everywhere, and report to their supporters in every part of the country on conditions in the rest of the world. They raise funds for starving masses in X, natural disaster victims in Y and political problems in Z. They are influential and US governments seldom ignore them. [BTW I hope you will not take this information poorly as I am quite aware that you possess the means and intellect to locate the information yourself.] The imposition of a European mercantilist regime anywhere would obviously have affected American trade opportunity as well. I refer you to the [admittedly somewhat self serving] American Open Door Policy in China. The US government opposed Europe carving up China into exclusive economic domains because of commercial interests supported vigorously by the missionary groups. Exports from the hinterlands [farmers, cowboys, miners, etc.] and missionary activity from there and elsewhere could not but affect the opinions of a wide range of Americans. I believe the evidence for this to be conclusive if notional.
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284. Swamilicious wrote:
Should we trust Hamas' figures for deaths caused by their rockets?
Thanks to excellent Israeli security, Hamas has not been able to get into Israel from Gaza lately. The IDF was in Gaza. Spot the difference? The IDF also has many contacts among the Palestinians. Didn't you know that?
So what exactly was the threat to Israel from this entity that could only reply with 6 kills?
*The hundreds of Israeli civilians murdered by Hamas terrorists in suicide bombings and other attacks on the occasions that they have been able to get into Israel, apart from the civilian deaths caused by the rockets.
*The longer range and more powerful rockets fired at Israeli cities as far as 40 kilometres from Gaza.
*The increasing involvement of the Iranians, funding and training Hamas and other terrorists and arming them with more powerful weapons to carry out their genocidal designs on the Jews.
But feel free to try to push the propaganda that there is no threat to Israel from Hamas and that Hamas really wants "peace" with Israel. And feel free to duck out of the debate.
280. seanspa wrote:
TT, you have been posting here long enough to know that I am not 'pro palestinian', and not 'anti-israel'.
You don't give much away with your typical one-line comments, such as no. 282, except to express extreme irritation and sometimes contempt for those who support Israel on this blog - so why wouldn't I think of you as anti-Israel?
I have given an example of the gross exaggeration re casualty figures from the Palestinian side. Yet you have nothing to say about that, instead insisting that IDF figures cannot be trusted. The onus is on you to show why you believe that is the case. If you can't, why enter the debate?
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Happy has a better memory than TT. And I thought that smoking was bad for the memory.
Debate? What debate? TT, if you cannot concede that the idf may have reason to understate civilian casualties then swarmy is right, this is just rhetoric. The same idf who didn't allow any press into gaza. Now why would they do that? Clearly because they have nothing to hide, isn't it? Why have the press there when the idf can tell us how it really is.
I have said in the past that I support Israel's existence. I do not, however, support the heavy handed suppression of the palestinians, the effect of this being more suffering for everyone involved, including the israelis. If you really think the israeli policy is working, what on earth is your end-game?
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211, KScurmudgeon.
"Now I teach my granddaughter the meaning of words, where there are worlds to explore back, back to the very beginnings of human kind."
As a student of Latin you may have read Ovid's "Metamorphoses." In his first paragraph, as a throw-away, he mentions that the world is round. Centuries later explorers may have proved this, but it was always known. Any thinking person standing on the shore and watching a ship disappear over the horizon knows it to be true. We may have accumulated more knowledge, but not better brains. The study of Latin, or ancient Greek, gives us a perspective that the present generation is denied.
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286. McJakome,
Perhaps you missed my no. 275. I was interested in your claim that you support Israel immediately followed your anti-Israel rant.
I am also interested in your source for the allegation that the Israelis machine-gunned American sailors in the water.
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"#275 Re #267, by David Cunard. I agree with you there. But you claim to support the establishment of Israel and to be against anti-Israel rhetoric and then you go on an anti-Israel rant?
I should dearly love to hear your definition of "rant." Is any criticism of Israel a "rant?" My post could as easily be characterized as an anti-Arab or anti-Palestinian "rant."
I may have a Jewish grandfather, but that does not mean I must close my eyes to crimes or unrighteousness by Jews or Israelies? I may be American, but am I to accept the idiocy of "my country right or wrong?" In a court of law Israeli actions enumerated would constitute evidence of a pattern of behavior; and this would strongly suggest a predisposition to criminal behavior. If I were "ranting" against Israel I would not have voiced support for it, nor would I have stated that the same criticisms applied to the Palestinians. My position is that two wrongs do not make a right, they rather make a greater wrong. BTW you did say that you had found reference to the USS Liberty "mistake." Are you satisfied that an American ship flying an American flag could have been "accidentally" targeted by the Israeli military, perhaps mistaken for the formidable Palestinian Navy? I suggest digging deeper. My information came from mewspaper reports at the time, interviews with a few of those involved, and a personal conversation with an ex-Israeli "naval person."
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McJakome, if it didn't come from an official spokesman for the idf, who after all are the only ones there, then I'm afraid your information is clearly biased and not worthy of debate.
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291, McJakome.
This is the first time I have read any of your comments and am interested to read more in the future. May I ask that you make shorter paragraphs? It makes for easier reading, especially on a computer. I'll get back to you.
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McJakome, if you dig a little deeper, you may find that Israel was
at war with the Egypt and Syria at the time, and that Egypt had a navy
which was equipped with missile boats courtesy of the Soviet Union.
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Oh, and Jordan, too by the way. Not that I approve of everything that
Israel has done, but the Israelis, IMHO, took the proper steps to defend
themselves in that conflict.
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extremely senseless; you have ascribed what I posted to someone else. Here it is in its exact form to refresh your memory;
"32. At 01:48am on 05 Jun 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
#27
Given the history of Israel and the Jews both over the last 2000 years and during its last 61 years as a nation, there are no valid criticisms of it. Whatever it does or feels it must do to survive is justified. This is what happens when you try to push someone into a corner and try to kill them. Whatever recourse they take to continue living is warranted. Anything else is merely expression of hatred of Jews, contempt for their lives, anger that they finally have a country they can call home. I'd sooner go to war against Britain again than see the US try to push the Israelis around. We don't treat our friends that way."
I stick by what I said. No exceptions, no wiggle room. I don't agree with everything Israel does such as its laws about marriage and the right of women to a divorce. Those religious laws seem archaic to me but it is a democracy and that's what its people want. I see no discrepency between that and its right to defend itself, its citizens, its existance any way it sees fit. All criticisms of that are by those motivated by wanting to see it destroyed one way or another. Again I am reminded of how contemptable Europe is as a hateful civilization of no real value to humanity. Its decline and disappearance would be a blessing for the rest of us. Perhaps I shall witness it in my lifetime, it seems to be happening at an accelerated pace. I hope my own government makes moves to try to slow or stop it as they would be futile and not in America's self interest IMO.
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happylaze, see #242
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lol seanspa . I remember because you had made good points. And the stuff they say about memory is total bull.
;)
so while we are on boats I ask Again how a navel blockade and sealed borders does not constitute a state of siege which is illegal under international law?
Oh GnR I do suspect that the american ship had an american flag. now if it were the Egyptian navy I doubt the would fly the flag.
Seeing as we were their only supporter back then it is rather surprising they did not notice that. But as it has been said "friendly fire" happens.
there is no logical reason for them to attack the US. But does that not show they are a little trigger happy.
or maybe they did not like having a spy ship off their coast. it seems that at the time the US was maybe neutral.
so here's the wiki other side of it.(also contains the conclusion that it was a ff mistake as the official israeli story is.
"Other sources claim that the attack was premeditated. They note that various aircraft, apparently Israeli, flew over Liberty at regular intervalssome at low altitudesbefore the attack; and that Liberty was about twice as large as El Quseir, designated with Latin rather than Arabic letters, displaying the US flag, and differently configured. Proponents include the surviving Liberty crewmen, [11] and some former U.S. government officials, including then-CIA director Richard Helms and then-Secretary of State Dean Rusk as well as Admiral Thomas Hinman Moorer, former Chief of Naval Operations and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The Johnson administration did not publicly dispute Israel's claim that the attack had been nothing more than a disastrous mistake, but internal White House documents obtained from the Lyndon B. Johnson Presidential Library show that the Israelis' explanation of how the mistake had occurred was not believed.[12]
Both the Israeli and American governments conducted inquiries into the incident, and issued reports concluding that the attack was a tragic mistake, caused by confusion about the identity of the USS Liberty. The conclusions reached in the inquiry reports remain controversial, and some veterans and intelligence officials who were involved in the incident continue to dispute the official story claiming Israels attack on the USS Liberty remains the only major maritime incident in American history not investigated by Congress.[12] In May 1968, Israel paid US$3,323,500 as full payment on behalf of the families of the 34 men killed in the attack. In March 1969 Israel paid a further $3,566,457 in compensation to the men who had been wounded. On 18 December 1980 Israel agreed to pay $6 million as settlement for the U.S. claim of $7,644,146 for material damage to the Liberty itself.[13]"
I did not include the bit where they claim innocence that is already covered here.
There is no mention of sailors gunned down. but there are rather a lot of dead and it does seem that the boat after the planes was a bit of overkill.
literally.
I would not discount personal tales if I had met anyone serving there it does seem that military people at the time were not all that convinced of the innocence of the attack.
and as is noted. No investigation.
Bit like the spy that recently got let off for giving secrets to Israel. a fine no time. the judge said he was amazed it took so long to bring a prosecution..
but now we have some that did the same for Cuba and wow they are big criminals.Bet they get more than a fine.
America operates with a double standard that has caused itself and Israelis a lot of grief.
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Thick git you tried to say earlier
" Israel is a secular state"
No it is not it is a JEWISH STATE
"HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, "
Jewish state do you get it or are you that thick?
No mention of secular or any other religion. Quite clearly a Jewish state.
That quote is from the Israel gov own site on the decleration of israel.
So again LADDIE.. get your FACTS as you called it right.
Wow Scots you're not but a drunk you maybe.
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"292. At 9:00pm on 06 Jun 2009, seanspa wrote:
McJakome, if it didn't come from an official spokesman for the idf, who after all are the only ones there, then I'm afraid your information is clearly biased and not worthy of debate."
I beg your pardon, did you really make the assertion that only the IDF is to be trusted to report on what may have been an IDF mistake or crime?
In Israel do defendants judge their own innocence or guilt? Are the US State Department or Pentagon to be the sole "deciders" of truth about US actions. Do you accord the same role to Hamas or PLO? Is this Israeli "exceptionalism?"
To survive, Israel must be just and righteous. I could not support the PLO or Hamas because they are neither, and I will not be a hypocrite and support Israel right or wrong.
BTW your assertion that only the IDF was present where the Liberty was sunk is an own goal or own foot shooting if you prefer. If no others were present then the IDF could not possibly have made a mistake and actually attecked an American ship deliberately. Call it a stab in the back by an ally [worse than the French] or piracy, it was most assuredly un-righteous.
Don't hesitate to ask a rabbi whether it is righteous to kill, to covet thy neighbor's goods, whether "goods" includes land, etc.
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ref #278
here are some facts about the Hamas charter
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
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What TrueToo and the Israeli Ministry of Information don't realise is they have taken their argument way beyond the bounds of reasonable logic. People now listen to the Israeli Government's explanations and find it incredible. We all saw phosphorous on our TV screens from early on in the Gaza assault. Yet day after day we heard Mark Regev (PM spokesman) deny they were using it. He categorically said the IDF would not use it. After five days, deluged in evidence to the contrary, he briefly admitted they have selectively used it in some open areas. 'But what about this white phosphorous all over schools, over houses, over streets,' he was asked. Then the message changed to "It's not illegal. It's OK. It's not harmful. It's used for troop cover." The penny dropped for many people. The shift in public opinion in Britain was huge. It wasn't just the white phosphorous use. The details of the Hamas ceasefire became quite clear. The breach of the ceasefire by Israel with the murder of six people within Gaza territory became clear, timed to be overshadowed by the USA election on Novemeber 4th. The news didn't emerge at the time. But it was re-visited in light of the huge assault on the Gazan civilians, and broadcast many times.
If people find TrueToo's position hard to understand - "incredible" as I have described. "Shocking" as Swamilicious has described, they should consider this: Public Opinion in Britain, Europe and USA is very important to Israel. Israel has an extremely large Ministry of Information. A huge number of people are employed monitoring news broadcasters. They count and collate the number of minutes of airtime they get. They check the content, the way it's reported and what Palestinian spokesmen say. (Why do you think the BBC is always answering Israeli complaints?) They monitor newspapers and magazine articles. They check websites. And they even check blogs. They have a network of people to do this. The number of people involved in this was increased dramatically after the PR disaster in 2006 (Lebanon). These people have the task of challenging posts and trying to shape opinion. The 'media volunteers' are supported by mass emails when the Ministry of Information wants to convey certain perceptions. For example, "Always use the word 'terrorist' when naming Hamas." During the Gaza assault in January, they were all told to fit in as many times, "Hamas hides in civilian buildings." "Hamas uses human shields." and cruelly, "There is no humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip." I go on several other blog sites where people carrying out a similar role to TrueToo use similar phrases in their posts. If you try to compare the Israel/Palestine situation with another example as a parallel they dry up. Despite appearing to have a general knowledge, they are unable to draw parallels because they don't have the information support. So it's not so "incredible" or "shocking" when you realise they are just doing a job.
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291. McJakome,
Here's your rant from no. 267:
Israel cannot demand respect when it gives none, Israel cannot demand security when it offers none, Israel cannot act in an ethnocentric way while castigating others for the same offense. Israel cannot establish a theocratic state while accusing the Palestinians or others of the same, Israel cannot violate international law time after time and expect its accusations of violation of international law by others to be taken seriously.
Let's take them one by one:
Israel cannot demand respect when it gives none.
Israel gave its Arab neighbours Egypt and Jordan the respect of a visit by the Israeli Prime Minister, Netanyahu. In contrast, neither the Egyptians, nor any other country will show Israel similar respect. The first and last Arab leader to visit Israel was Anwar Sadat.
Israel cannot demand security when it offers none.
Israel withdrew from the Sinai, Gaza and Lebanon in the interests of peace and security. What has the Arab side of the conflict done towards those ends?
Israel cannot act in an ethnocentric way while castigating others for the same offense.
Israel has an Israeli Arab population of 1,3 million while many Arab countries are completely Jew-free.
Israel cannot establish a theocratic state while accusing the Palestinians or others of the same.
Smaller religious parties can and do hold the balance of power in Israel but Israel is not a theocratic state and it allows complete freedom of religion for all faiths. In contrast, the Palestinians are oppressing and driving out their Christian communities, proving yet again that Islam cannot live in harmony with other faiths.
Israel cannot violate international law time after time and expect its accusations of violation of international law by others to be taken seriously.
This is straight out of the anti-Israel textbook. Let's see some examples of this "international law" that Israel is continually accused of violating. And I've never heard of Israel accusing others of violating "international law."
So yes, that's a rant - biased, inaccurate and over the top statements, one after the other.
Re the Liberty, it would be good if you could break that info down a bit further. Who reported that the Israelis machine-gunned American sailors in the water? The New York Times?
seanspa,
I was about to post the following:
Tell me seanspa, do you ever engage in a reasonable debate or do you only have sarcasm like your no. 292 and rubbish like the following to offer from your kitchen:
Your legion, as you call them, just do not see that their extremist hatred exactly mirrors the extremist hatred they profess to fight against. And they will never see, because they have their heads up their butts.
I hope you were not including me in that insulting and crude statement. I don't hate anyone.
Then to my surprise I saw that you had actually entered the debate at no. 288, albeit with a weird and irrelevant beginning.
I find it really strange that you start from the assumption that the IDF is lying and develop your argument from that point. Can't you see how insulting and prejudiced that is? And I suppose you didn't notice that the IDF acknowledged almost 300 civilian casualties. Yes, that is way too many, but we wont blame Hamas for any of them, will we? That's simply not done on a BBC blog, right? I'm also wondering into which category the Fatah members murdered by Hamas fell. But don't bother yourself with these inconvenient little details.
Re the press, I'm pretty sure the IDF didn't want to have to babysit a bunch of leftie reporters falling over one another to be the first to prove how intrepid they are and how bold in their support of the Palestinians. Imagine if any of them had been killed. That would have been yet more ammunition to bash Israel with.
In fact, one BBC reporter was embedded for a short time with the IDF and there were two local Gazans reporting for the BBC. So your information is inaccurate and your cynical implication that the IDF had something to hide falls flat. You are not anti-Israel? Right.
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McJakome, I agree that my statements were ludicrous. It's just that I was not stating my opinion, but someone else's.
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now look reading further on the wiki post on the liberty and the boat in international waters was attacked and there is this line showing that it is not the poster here that accuses Israel of firing on crew.
"Most of the U.S. deaths and injuries in the incident were caused by the torpedo blast. According to some witnesses, the torpedo boats then approached Liberty and strafed crewmen (including damage control parties and sailors preparing life rafts for launch) on deck. (See disputed details below.)"
" Israeli ships' actions after the torpedo hit: Officers and men of Liberty claim that after the torpedo attack and the abandon ship order, motor torpedo boats strafed the ship's topside with automatic gunfire preventing men from escaping from below, and either machine-gunned or confiscated the empty life rafts that had been set afloat.[68][69] The IDF claims that Liberty was not fired upon after the torpedo attack and that a rescue raft was fished from the water while searching for survivors.[70]"
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297. Scotch-git,
happylaze doesn't get the fact that "Jewish" does not equal "religiously observant Jewish."
300. McJakome,
seanspa's comment about the IDF was sarcastic.
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Please tell me, do you know the source for the following [possibly inaccurate] quotes:
"The Jews [or Israel] are the conscience of humanity."
And if this be true, is not the job of the conscience to be self-critical and righteous?
Are these words contained in the Torah, the Bible, the Koran:
"Do unto others what you would have others do unto you?"
Or "Do not do unto others that which you would not wish others to do unto you?"
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Ref 191 McJakome
You wrote: "This is a perfect example of what happens when the moral high ground is abandoned for short term aparent advantage."
Exactly right. I believe Obama follows a philosophy along these lines. He does appear to have compromised a couple of times recently. This may be necessary from time to time, but if he uses his 'values' to assist decision-making most of the time, it's a huge improvement on his predecessor.
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294./295. gunsandreligion,
True.
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Richard SM.. well said.
when compared with Ireland they never get the point. and never will.
one reason the BBC should ban these folk.
As I have been in the past;)lol
They don't shock me cause I expect them to lie. when they don't that will be shocking.
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298, happylaze, I have not researched the incident, so I don't really know
what was going on. I do know that pilots cannot always distinguish between
friend and foe in the heat of battle, especially when each side is using
electronic warfare to confuse the other side.
I'm sure that the Israelis did not mean to attack an American ship.
The Russians probably didn't intend to shoot down a Korean Air Lines
flight either. An American electronic intelligence plane was in the vicinity
a few hours earlier, so they probably confused the two.
All the more reason to promote peace - even in the best of circumstances,
when there is suspicion, there are going to be horrible tragedies.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
TT, nowhere have I said that the idf are lying. All I was asking for was your acknowledgement that a person without prejudice would not take the idf's numbers at face value, but would look for independent verification. You are unable to accept this. Yet you cannot see that your position on israel is the same as, say, marbles on iran. Any criticism is unacceptable. And you wonder why I think you ludicrous.
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311 GnR try the much slagged off Wiki.
there is rather a lot on the subject. The Crew seeming to be behind the accusation of being fired upon.
seems the mods did not like my linking to that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident
Also my comment about Israel being a Jewish state was removed.
Now I was QUOTING the Israeli decleration. not making it up.
So to the two gits that think Israel is not a jewish state (and mods this ins not believe it or not anti semetic to mention what is in their declaration .
"HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, "
A jewish state not secular state.
No mention of them having to be moderates etc. just that the state is Jewish Therefore Not Secular.
real simple.
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Since the assassins of the Palestinian terrorist government use Palestinian civilians as human shields with impunity, why shouldn't the Isrealis use Palestinians as human shields as well? What's good for the goose.... Do you think Hamas would kill their own people to kill Israelis? I think so. Is there anything lower on the scale of humans? I don't think so. Hear any talk about prosecuting the Palestinians for doing this as committing crimes against humanity for doing this? I haven't heard of any.
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291, MacJakome.
The War Crimes Report filed with the Secretary of Defense claims that the attack on the U.S.S. Liberty by the Israelis was intentional, and gives chapter and verse. I have o inside information on the subject.
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303. At 10:28pm on 06 Jun 2009, TrueToo wrote:
291. McJakome,
Here's your rant from no. 267:
Israel cannot demand respect when it gives none, Israel cannot demand security when it offers none, Israel cannot act in an ethnocentric way while castigating others for the same offense. Israel cannot establish a theocratic state while accusing the Palestinians or others of the same, Israel cannot violate international law time after time and expect its accusations of violation of international law by others to be taken seriously.
Let's take them one by one:
1. No international leader should visit Israel, any more than they should visit Burma (Myanamar)
2, Israel has never wanted peace and has only ever responded to violence. It only pulled out of Gaza due to ludicrous demographic reasons.
3. Israel is increasingly becomiong a theocractic state. Citizens are marked by their religion, as in nazi Germany.
4. Isrel admits breaking international law. The roadblocks, Gaza Blockade, the wall.
Increasingly this is being realised and unoffical boycotts are growing.
"notice that the IDF acknowledged almost 300 civilian casualties. Yes, that is way too many, but we wont blame Hamas for any of them, will we? That's simply not done on a BBC blog, right? I'm also wondering into which category the Fatah members murdered by Hamas fell. But don't bother yourself with these inconvenient little details."
Is 300 too many? How many dead Palestinian children are OK, as many as thiose killed at Soweto?
Their deaths were all the fault of the ANC, Communists, civil rights activists, the Queen, the BBC, etc. Weren't they?
"In fact, one BBC reporter was embedded for a short time with the IDF and there were two local Gazans reporting for the BBC. So your information is inaccurate and your cynical implication that the IDF had something to hide falls flat. You are not anti-Israel? Right."
Your hatred of the Palestinians asa human beingsd springs from your background in the RSA which of course was a keen Israeli supporter.
Having seen a despised race gain power in your former homeland, you, like many former RSA citizens beleive Israel is the next bastion of a right, white state threatened by the hordes.
Perhaps you are one of those strange "pilgrims" who fly to Israel from SA regularly and pray (in any convenient synagogue weirdly) for the destruction of the Palestinian people and the end of the world.
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315. At 11:27pm on 06 Jun 2009, MarcusAureliusII
Is there anything lower on the scale of humans?
Well one person springs to mind!
The sort of person who thinks human beings come on a "scale". Where on this "scale" do black people come? Are they above asian people?
What about disabled humans, women?
You are "tired and emotional" again Marcus, get some sleep.
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Re #311 gunsandreligion, "I'm sure that the Israelis did not mean to attack an American ship.
The Russians probably didn't intend to shoot down a Korean Air Lines
flight either. An American electronic intelligence plane was in the vicinity
a few hours earlier, so they probably confused the two."
Were you intending to suggest that the israelis intended to shoot down an American plane rather than sink an American ship or that the Russians intended to shoot down an American plane [precipitating World War III] rather than a Korean one.
With all due respect, neither proposition makes much sense to me.
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307, McJakome.
"'The Jews [or Israel] are the conscience of humanity'."
I don't know the origin of the quote, but I don't see how any nation or people can claim to be the conscience of humanity. So it's a pretty arrogant statement, whoever made it.
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306. At 10:39pm on 06 Jun 2009, TrueToo wrote:
297. Scotch-git,
happylaze doesn't get the fact that "Jewish" does not equal "religiously observant Jewish."
So what does it mean in your eyes (this will be fun)? Is it a reference to skin colour? Finger nail size?
Isn't the world made up of "non-observant" jews.
Judaism is a religion nothing more.
And to call someone jewish who does not observe the religion is a profound insult to those that go to the trouble to observe the rites and actually think they mean something.
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Ref 291. McJakome
Ref 313. seanspa
Ref 284. Swamilicious
Ref 276. extremesense
Ref 266. David_Cunard
and others
After submitting my post #302, TrueToo's post immediately followed and provided some examples. He dismantles McJakome's post line by line quite purposefully. Not the typical pattern of most people blogging for fun.
Then we have this line from TrueToo,"This is straight out of the anti-Israel textbook." What Anti-Israel Textbook? Most people started with a neutral position on Israel/Palestine. They are simply expressing their views based on their opinion. They don't think in terms of "Anti-Israeli textbooks" or "Anti-Arab textbooks." However, if you're someone who is tasked with countering views expressed, you will start see the points in 'categories,' where you select the corresponding answer.
The consistent theme is to try and demonstrate inaccuracy, like challenging Seanspa's point that there was a media ban in Gaza during the assault. He tries to ridicule the point. But we all know there was a media ban. We all saw the media reporting from outside Gaza. The BBC's two 'Gazan' reporters he mentioned were working 'under cover.' TrueToo provides narrative, but it doesn't answer the points in any way.
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Propoganda, what propoganda?
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319, McJ, the Russians were intending to shoot down an American plane.
I have information but don't know if it has been declassified, so I
can't put it out on this blog.
However, it probably leaked out anyway. If I come across a public
reference at some point, I'll post it.
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302. At 10:26pm on 06 Jun 2009, Richard_SM wrote:
What TrueToo and the Israeli Ministry of Information don't realise is they have taken their argument way beyond the bounds of reasonable logic."
You have to understand that TooTrue gets his views from his childhood in RSA.Indoctrination as regards racial theory was mother''s milk in that odious place.
Most of the hatred towards the Palestinians is based on this idea of them as some form of inferior "race". Remember if you are a fanatical pro-israeli appeaser you have to agree with the oppression of 4 million people.
You cannot do that and recognise the 4 million as human beings. Ditto the RSA with its black population.
There is also the question of power worship. It is noticeable that most Israeli appeasers are also addicted to violence as a cure to the world's ills.
As Orwell said some people are keen on the idea that the more violent the government, the bigger the bombs the more correct it must be. Might is right and the inferiors must be despised.
It formed the basis of 1984 where BB was loved because of his violence, not in spite of.
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314, happy Jack.
""HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, " A jewish state not secular state. No mention of them having to be moderates etc. just that the state is Jewish Therefore Not Secular.
real simple."
You are unwittingly playing into the hands of propagandists. Israel is a nation and should be regarded as such; i.e., unemotionally.
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Ref 322, Richard
I think you hit the nail on the head. Another thing I noticed is that TrueToo only surfaces when the Israeli-Palestinian topic comes up, and remains mute on just about everything else.
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McJ, some information has been made public about the KAL incident. In
this wikipedia page, for example, it is mentioned that the Soviets admitted
shooting the plane down because they thought that it was on a "spy" mission.
But, they really thought that it was another plane, an RC-135 which had
recently been nearby. I cannot disclose why I know this, but there is
enough information in the article that you can probably figure out the
general situation.
There is some speculation by an author mentioned towards the end of the
article that there was some sort of "air battle" going on, but this assertion
is false. The Russians just locked on to the wrong aircraft.
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320. At 00:17am on 07 Jun 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
307, McJakome.
"'The Jews [or Israel] are the conscience of humanity'."
I don't know the origin of the quote, but I don't see how any nation or people can claim to be the conscience of humanity. So it's a pretty arrogant statement, whoever made it.
I should have given some context. I believe, but am not sure, that this statement was made at a commemoration of the Holocaust, and was meant to be a statement that the Jews having suffered such an atrocity would remind humanity not to do the same in the future. What a tragedy if "Eretz-Israel" were to betray such a duty if it were to do unto others what had been done to the Jews.
This is precisely what I have had in mind when stating that Israel must be just and righteous, even in dealing with the unjust and unrighteous.
When I see Arabs or Muslims celebrating an attack on innocent Israelies, I wish I could support Israel, until the Israeli retaliation convinces me that they are unworthy of support. Except in extremis, that is. I would expect the US to support Israel if they were facing a real existential threat. I really do wish human decency would triumph over tribalism, though!
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215. At 06:24am on 06 Jun 2009, TrueToo wrote:
181. gunsandreligion,
There is no doubt about the greatness of Britain during WWII, led, as it was, by the great Churchill. Unfortunately Britain today is a pale shadow of its former self. The Labour Party and its PR department, the BBC, have done much to foster this sharp decline."
Let's get this straight. the UK was "great" in WWII when it was facing invasion, ratioing was everywhere, the streets were bombed.
This is "greatness" to you
Hmmm well I have to tell you that the UK people being bombed did not think so. They were under the idea that peace was a good thing to have.
But you do seem to equate violence with virtue
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299. At 10:16pm on 06 Jun 2009, happylaze wrote:
Thick git you tried to say earlier
" Israel is a secular state"
No it is not it is a JEWISH STATE"
No Israel is not a jewish state.
20% of its citizens are not jewish.
To call Israel jewish is like calling the US a "white" state.
But it is true that its governemtn does indulge in 19th century racial theory and would like to pose as the home of some pseudo race.
it must never be forgotten that Israel's founders were soaked in spurious ideas of race.
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Simon21
Did you read the whole of my post #302?
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320. At 00:17am on 07 Jun 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
307, McJakome.
"'The Jews [or Israel] are the conscience of humanity'."
I don't know the origin of the quote, but I don't see how any nation or people can claim to be the conscience of humanity. So it's a pretty arrogant statement, whoever made it."
Yes I am sure the Chinese, Japanese and indeed the vast bulk of humanity would look in askance at this ridiculous, pompous statement.
It is amazing in this day and age how many think humanity consists of the US (not latin america) and Western Europe.
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323. At 00:23am on 07 Jun 2009, seanspa wrote:
Propoganda, what propoganda?
This is astonishing, even for the Likud Gazette (The Jersusalem Post).
They are so corrupt they admit they tried to manipulate the press and think they did a good job. The author wonders if the programme actually worked.
To which the answer might be, not any more.
Wow, this is like admitting you conducted a successful massacre and expect praise!
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"326. At 00:28am on 07 Jun 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
314, happy Jack.
""HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, " A jewish state not secular state. No mention of them having to be moderates etc. just that the state is Jewish Therefore Not Secular.
real simple."
You are unwittingly playing into the hands of propagandists. Israel is a nation and should be regarded as such; i.e., unemotionally."
I regret to say that this is precisely the core problem. Neither the Israelies nor the Arabs/Muslims [not the same] can [as a group, though individuals sometimes can] view the situation in a detached and unemotional way. One of my students, a young girl from Israel, shocked me by stating that she wished all arabs whould disappear. Ahmadinejad said that he wished Israel would disappear, a muslim extremist I once met said, "All Jews should be slaughtered, even babies." When I replied that the Koran commands faithful Muslims to respect the people of the book [Jews and Christians]his reply was chilling and quite revealing of the attitudes of fundamentalist Muslims. "The Jews of today are not the Jews of the time of the Prophet Mohammed, Peace be upon him, and therefore are not protected." I felt quite sure that, in his eyes at least, as the Christians of today are not the Christions of that time neither are they protected.
To those who might consider me anti-Israel or demand a bibliographic reference for these remarks, I heard them with my own ears while looking into hate-filled eyes. I do not demand that Isreal throw itself upon the nonexistant mercies of such people. I only demand that Israel behave with justice and righteousness. I do not demand that Israel not defend itself only that the defense be proportional. The Israeli government has a duty to protect its citizens, and cannot be expected to leave itself defenseless, though it does seem to go out of its way to leave Israel friendless at times.
I hope and pray that sanity will come to the Holy Land.
"From my lips to God's Ears."
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332. At 00:44am on 07 Jun 2009, Richard_SM wrote:
Simon21
Did you read the whole of my post #302?"
I have and I agree with the laterpoints espiecially.
However it is heartening to realise that despite its efforts the horrors Israel inflicts on the Palestinians are becoming increasingly well known and Israeli firms are finding exports increasingly difficult.
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329, McJ.
" I believe, but am not sure, that this statement was made at a commemoration of the Holocaust, and was meant to be a statement that the Jews having suffered such an atrocity would remind humanity not to do the same in the future."
Why is everybody locked into this particular atrocity? This is only one in the black history of humanity. We are responsible for the death of untold numbers of Iraqis. The gypsies also were killed by Hitler (but they don't have good public relations). What about the Inquisition? The Crusades? Gengis Khan? Murder appears to be in our blood. I am holocausted out. Let's move on.
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330, Simon21, I think that TT is talking about power. Surely the UK
is not the dominant world power that it was in the 1940s. But, IMHO,
that is not what makes a great culture. It is the sacrifices that
one has to make for their values, and the integrity of those values
which defines a people, not the size of their economy or of their armed
forces.
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Tomorrow Hezbullah will proably take control over Lebanon and the inexorable march to war between Iran and the rest of the Middle East will have advanced again.
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"303. At 10:28pm on 06 Jun 2009, TrueToo wrote:
291. McJakome,
Here's your rant from no. 267:
Israel cannot demand respect when it gives none, Israel cannot demand security when it offers none, Israel cannot act in an ethnocentric way while castigating others for the same offense. Israel cannot establish a theocratic state while accusing the Palestinians or others of the same, Israel cannot violate international law time after time and expect its accusations of violation of international law by others to be taken seriously. ......"
I invite everyone to read my "rant" in it's entirety, especially paying attention to what this [KGB trained?] propagandist deliberately omitted.
Israel has a right to self defense, including use of lethal force, but not to mass murder whenever, wherever and against whomever it is convenient." Do you assert the contrary? Would you do so as the voice of Israel?
"These accusations directed against Israel can, with equal justice, be made against many governments and entities. All must only "do unto others what they would have others do unto them."
Do you assert the contrary? Would you do so as the voice of Israel? How many rabbis would support the contrary as righteous? Do not Israelis expect the same of their neighbors:
Do not expect justice from Israel if you are not just to Israel, Do not expect respect from Israel if you do not give Israel respect, Do not expect security if Israel has none, etc."?
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287 TT - I am ducking out of this discussion. It is not a debate, you say you showed evidence, I exposed the fact that you hadn't, and you didn't even reply to pretend you did, as there is none.
302 Richard - This does make a lot of sense! I had to laugh at the irony of TT accusing me of sounding like a broken record; everything to that person is anti-Israel bias and propaganda.
Include attempts to belittle the other person to discredit them to the audience, attacks on any publication incl BBC that is not blatantly pro-Israel and you have the formula for a typical TT response.
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Its funny our allies want us to close Gitmo , but they are unwilling to take the prisoners.
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342, tough.
"Its funny our allies want us to close Gitmo , but they are unwilling to take the prisoners."
Well, we were the ones who took them prisoner.
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lol marbles. the quote was as I said from the link way above. it came with the shout letters. I just clipped it.
I BTW have no problem with religious states. The vatican is one. The UK is one.(well in a round about way), there are plenty of examples. Some nice places to live others not. I'm not that emotional about it. just simply stating fact as can be backed up. the "fact" that it is a secular state as dreamt up by the drunk git.
If Israel goes for a single state solution as they seem to think (leaders that is) is right how are they going to deal with an increase in Arab and other minorities?
Why build in settlements that are disputed if that is not populating forward out posts with civilians in order to use them as human shields?
Israel is worried about the demographic shift . It is not a state secret.
I personally have no problem with Israel as a state but to go in declaring a home land for the jews as many here claim and the document linked above (way above now) does seem to exclude them folk there before.
Again people were forcibly evicted then brutalised for getting angry about it.Like Richard said most did not come here with preconceived ideas on this issue. Believe it or not I came to see what people were saying about Obama during the primaries . It was hard not to find out a lot of stuff then. MA was filling every post with rants distractions and some rather dodgy suggestions to the israeli defence force . That was before he was ridiculed so much he took a leave of absence .Which was when A truly strange smell got stronger.
Not decent behaviour that. The American Indians suffered the same thing. They are not living it up on the hog as some say when they moan about casinos.
It seems most of the Brits have come (lol not the git obviously) without the same preconceived ideas that are so often there in the american contingent.
They may end up as me saying it is ridiculous how stupid do you think we are? do you see a handle on the side of me 'ead? I'm not believing you no mo.
That is what happened to me.
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343 lol I'm in agreement there.
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marbles I think Obama going to see the sites that he did are a sign that he is not ignorant. Should people suggest it from either side.
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344, Happy Jack.
"If Israel goes for a single state solution as they seem to think (leaders that is) is right how are they going to deal with an increase in Arab and other minorities?"
Lebanon is a good example. It started out as a predominantly Christian state. Then the Christians moved out, the Moslems moved in, and a Christian minority continued to dominate the Moslems.Now that is all coming apart. There is a limit to how long a minority can rule.
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346, Happy Jack.
Obama seems to be doing well in foreign affairs. How well he can do domestically depends on Congress. That's a laugh. What can a reformer expect from a Congress that's hand in glove with big business? Bad for him. Worse for us.
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347 thats democracy ;)
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In consideration of some of the replies in this thread I feel obliged to make a partial retraction of a comment that I made and which has been seen elsewhere.
I stated that Israel should not complain about other states being theocracies if Israel is itself a theocracy. My whole point here was to emphasize the need for reciprocity. However, nonobservant [Jewish] Israelis often complain bitterly about the tyranny of the Orthodox. In one way, however, Israel is definitely not adhering to the requirements of the Torah:
Commandment number 13 You shall not kill. Commandment number 15 You shall not steal. Commandment number 17 You shall not covet your neighbors house; you shall not covet your neighbors wife, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor. Unambiguously this includes land. Q.E.D.
Be just and Righteous.
.
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Dearie me! While I have been repeatedly traduced by happylaze, poor Simon21 has toppled off the edge. Must be all the excitement.
Speak to an Israeli. Tell them that their State is not secular. Watch them fall about laughing, like your friend Richard.
Most Jews in Israel regard themselves as Israelis first and Jews second.
Only 20% of the Jews in Israel are religiously observant.
The State of Israel is a secular democratic republic with a Jewish majority. You are confusing the Jewish Nation with the Jewish religion.
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302. At 10:26pm on 06 Jun 2009, Richard_SM wrote:
" We all saw phosphorous on our TV screens from early on in the Gaza assault. "
I will not engage in this 'debate' further, except to say I was phoned by a friend who also saw that (and who knew I was at the time authoring a blog on Gaza) and who holds a senior position in the British military. I have never heard him so shocked, angry and upset -- and we have, over the years, discussed many things to do with military actions and warfare -- about violations of the rule of international laws of warfare, about which he was explicit, and in no doubt whatsoever that it was forbidden. And I know he was far from alone.
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350, McJ.
I hope you are not looking for justice in the Israeli-Paletine conflict, or any other conflict (Afghanistan, for instance?). The guys making all the decisions are politicians, in other words, not normal people.
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347. At 04:08am on 07 Jun 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
"Lebanon is a good example. It started out as a predominantly Christian state. Then the Christians moved out, the Moslems moved in, and a Christian minority continued to dominate the Moslems."
Nonsense. The Moslems neither 'moved in' nor the 'Christians moved out'. The political arrangement in regard to the representation of religious parties, until the civil war, was a curious one imposed by the French.
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351, Scotch.
"Most Jews in Israel regard themselves as Israelis first and Jews second. Only 20% of the Jews in Israel are religiously observant. The State of Israel is a secular democratic republic with a Jewish majority. You are confusing the Jewish Nation with the Jewish religion."
Quite correct. We should treat Israel as a nation, and not as a collection of Jews. And as a postcript, Zionists were a non-religous group and a strong presence in Israel's early days. "Zionist" is erroneously used interchangeably with "Jew" and "Israeli."
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354, Squirrel.
"Nonsense. The Moslems neither 'moved in' nor the 'Christians moved out'. The political arrangement in regard to the representation of religious parties, until the civil war, was a curious one imposed by the French."
You have no idea what you are talking about. The constituion alloted representation of religious parties on the basis of the populations they represented. The president was to be Christian because that was the largest religious group. Christians began to emigrate to such an extent that that Lebanon ceased taking the census in 1933, because it would indicate a serious change in the religious balance of the state. At the same time that Christians were leaving, there was a steady migration of Moslems from the east. Soon Moslems became the undisputed majority. The Moslems of today's Lebanon will no longer accept the status of second-class citizen and remember with great resentment their treatment under the Christians.
I suspect that you have never lived in Lebanon.
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To MAII
RE: Principia Aurelia as outlined in #296:
"there are no valid criticisms of it [Israel]. Whatever it does or feels it must do to survive is justified... Whatever recourse they take to continue living is warranted.
Perhaps this is making progress and arriving at some kind of essence of humanity about what is acceptable or unacceptable.
1) Why doesn't this immunity apply to other persecuted groups (linked by race, religion, ethnicity, locality, belief etc.)? Is it politically incorrect to apply it to other groups?
2) On a lighter note. Can you identify with this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr2zvmsS9Ck
To Scotch-git:
Do you agree with MAII's principles in #296?
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#137 TimothyR444: Would you regard yourself as Anti-American?
(if not, please provide a comprehensive answer why you regard yourself as pro-American, perhaps with reference to your past posts showing what specifically defines you as pro-American)
Would you regard TrueToo as Anti-American? Why?
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338. gunsandreligion,
Values and integrity were precisely what I was talking about - and courage in the face of adversity, certainly not power.
340. McJakome wrote:
I invite everyone to read my "rant" in it's entirety, especially paying attention to what this [KGB trained?] propagandist deliberately omitted.
Please, let's not get too carried away here. You appeared to genuinely want to know what I regarded as your rant. Now that you are not satisfied with my answer, you take refuge in insult. I did not "deliberately omit" anything. Here's what I said in comment 275:
I agree with you there. But you claim to support the establishment of Israel and to be against anti-Israel rhetoric and then you go on an anti-Israel rant?
The part of your comment that I quoted in no. 303 was the part where you were ranting and that you had specifically asked me to point out. I am sorry if that is too complicated for you. I also gave the number of your comment so that people could refer to it and read it for themselves.
Come to think of it, this bit you accuse me of omitting is also a rant:
Israel has a right to self defense, including use of lethal force, but not to mass murder whenever, wherever and against whomever it is convenient.
I guess you genuinely believe that the Israelis wake up on the occasional morning and decide to "mass murder" people out of "convenience." Apart from the suicide bombing and other attacks which killed more than a thousand Israelis during the "Second Intifada", Hamas and company have been firing rockets at Israel for years, occasionally killing Israelis by that means and making life unlivable for those in the vicinity of Gaza. Last year they radically stepped up the attacks, firing longer range and more powerful rockets at Israeli cities 40 kilometres from Gaza out of their lust to shed Jewish blood.
There is no nation on earth that would not have put a stop to that. What would you have done to stop the rockets? I guess that question will be met with silence, as it usually is.
305. happylaze wrote:
now look reading further on the wiki post on the liberty and the boat in international waters was attacked and there is this line showing that it is not the poster here that accuses Israel of firing on crew.
It was him. He said the Israelis machine gunned sailors in the water. What was that you and seanspa were saying about memory? His name is McJacome if you'd like to ask him. Or just go to post 267 and check it for yourself. The same Wiki article also has conflicting info about firing from the Liberty. Could be that some Israeli fire was in response to that fire, if there was any.
313. seanspa wrote:
TT, nowhere have I said that the idf are lying.
No, but you have implied it, and in an insulting and mocking fashion.
Who did they have there for "independent verification," do tell. The BBC's Palestinian stringers, perhaps? Pro-Palestinian UN personnel? And if a motley crew of left wing journalists had been allowed in, do you really think they would have done anything but nod in agreement at the toll reported by Hamas? You are the "ludicrous" one.
327. saintDominick wrote:
Another thing I noticed is that TrueToo only surfaces when the Israeli-Palestinian topic comes up, and remains mute on just about everything else.
Actually, I discuss plenty other things. And I generally join the Israeli-Arab debate to challenge the lies and propaganda spread about it here.
You have a lot to say on the topic while in near-total ignorance about it. Whenever I point this out, as in your belief that rockets from Gaza are fired at the "occupied territories," when in fact they are fired at undisputed Israel, you "remain mute." Not big enough to admit your ignorance, I guess.
Swamilicious,
Your no. 341 is unimpressive. Yet another person who can't answer the points I have made and so resorts to personal attack. Nobody is fooled by that except those who want to be fooled.
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To #302: Richard_SM
The idealistic theory is that if there is enough participation and peer review from random people with random agendas with wide collective knowledge, any extreme, irrational or manufactured views from either direction should collapse in a pile of illogicality, regardless of the size of the lobby, PR group or number of bogus identities (which take a lot of effort to maintain and make realistic!).
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356, further.
I have left out the Palestinians who were much resented in Lebanon, in part because of their high standing in the Arab world and in part by their huge number and the rsulting dislocation. Many Palestinian leaders received stipends from Gamal Abdul Nasser. Although many Palestinians were Christians, nontheless the balance continued to shift to the Moslems. The civil war mainly fought along religious lines.
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355. allmymarbles wrote:
We should treat Israel as a nation, and not as a collection of Jews.
Problem is, this is what does not happen. The Israel-haters are obsessive about the country precisely because it is predominantly Jewish.
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To TrueToo:
1) Which country in the Middle East has not set-up, supported or carried out terrorist acts? (as defined here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism)
2) Why do you think repeating the generic rhetoric described in post #157 in this thread:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/worldtonight/2009/03/avraham_burg_on_postzionism.html
no longer works?
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352, untrue.
"Problem is, this is what does not happen. The Israel-haters are obsessive about the country precisely because it is predominantly Jewish."
When you say Israel-haters I presume you mean Arabs. They did not hate Jews before Israel occupied their land. In fact Jews had lived for centuries in the countries of the Middle East. It was only after Israel's creation, and its support by Jews all over the world, that the Arabs turned. The real argument is with Israel itself. The true irony is that Israel looks down on Middle Eastern Jews.
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So unless you're in the idf you are anti israel. Truly ridiculous.
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362, untrue.
"Problem is, this is what does not happen. The Israel-haters are obsessive about the country precisely because it is predominantly Jewish."
The problem is also caused by Israel itself, which emphasis is Jewishness in order to receive support from Jews around the world. Israel should be treated, and treat itself, as a nation, on equal terms with other nations.
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#275. TrueToo: I've never used that word (sweetheart) on this blog or any other. You're mixing me up with someone else so it's your memory that is failing."
Your're correct; I had you confused with Timothy444, whose posts are remarkably similar to your own. So much so that I'm not at all confident that you are not one and the same person.
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Ah-oh. Obama says "there are still people who question or justify 9/11..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuASoVK8f9c
How can asking questions, that is, trying to get a scientific basis for the approach to catch the criminals, be in some way, in ANY way, attempting to justify 9/11? It seems if you try to rational about 9/11 then you haven't fulfilled the criteria of Double-Think and be branded an enemy of the state!
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Gunsandreligion, No. 181,
Yes, believe it or not, the Stalin regime was actually considerably better than Hitler's -- a good six million or so lives better, and that is just one of many measures.
A bigger measure is that it eventually ended of its own accord, with very, very little violence. It did not take a war to end Communism in the USSR, it just melted away. Only a few patches remain, and those are fading.
Please let us get back on topic, shall we? The topic is Obama & Islam, not World War Two and who saved more people from whom.
Also, Mr Webb (maybe time to close this thread?), it may be time to put to rest, at least in this august website, that Russia was ever interested in conquering Europe. The Eastern Europeans who will pop up and shriek about how they were "captive nations," ALL, East Germans included, contributed in some fashion to the demise of the Russian Empire. And naturally enough the fallout from that did indeed spill over into their lands.
The honest historians amongst them -- Czechs, Lithuanians, Hungarians, Romanians, Latvians, Poles, Germans, Georgians -- all know that some of their countrymen worked long and hard first to bring down the Russian Empire and then to keep Sovietism operating in the Warsaw Pact for as long as it did.
The rise of Hitler and Nazism would not have been possible had the Russian Empire not collapsed first, leading inevitably to the collapse of the German Imperial government (which should never have started that bloody war, in the first place).
Anyway, I am far more interested in current events than in rehashing history.
Can someone explain to me why President Obama said "women should be allowed to lead traditionalist Muslim lives" but never added "and Muslim women who choose to lead independent, non-traditionalist lives should also be free to do so without fear of intimidation, punishment or ostracism"?
When he said Iraq is better off without Saddam His-Namesake, shouldn't he have said "except for the women, of course"?
Women's rights, opportunities and freedoms have been eroded since the US invaded Iraq.
You will say I keep harping about "women" but precious few of you gentlemen seem to be willing to do so...
They are half the world's population, and you all know at least a couple that matter to you.
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364. allmymarbles wrote:
When you say Israel-haters I presume you mean Arabs. They did not hate Jews before Israel occupied their land.
Arabs, but obviously not only Arabs. And as you know, what you said there, and have said before a few times, is false:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs_and_antisemitism
And when you speak of "their land," how did that apply to the vast majority of Arabs who were not living between the Jordan river and the sea?
366. allmymarbles wrote:
The problem is also caused by Israel itself, which emphasis is Jewishness in order to receive support from Jews around the world.
That's blaming the recipient of abuse simply for being him/herself. You can't believe that, surely.
367. David_Cunard,
You are starting to come across as deluded as happylaze.
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#283 TrueToo
Thanks for your response. To be honest with you, I expected nothing else after seeing a history of 'Arab-bashing rants' (a variation on your words) in your previous posts.
In terms of warfare and military action, tell me, how much power do the UN general assembly have? Well, none really, it's the security council that counts and as I said this is in the hands of a few powerful members the most powerful being the US (and in the context of this discussion, probably the most relevant).
Personally, I find the extremist Iranian regime repugnant and the thought of them acquiring a nuclear weapons extremely alarming, however, I simply used Iran as an example of a country that Israel wishes to attack without considering the UN. As always it's only the US that counts.
We will have to agree to disagree on the point of what Hamas have said and not said. Although, I think we can probably agree that Hamas is a horrible organisation which tortures and kills it's opponents.
I will ask again whether you believe that B'Tselem, Gisha, Physicians for Human Rights, Bimkom, Rabbis for Human Rights, Adalah, The Public Committee Against Torture, Yesh Din and Itach Women Lawyers for Social Justice are part of the alleged liberal conspiracy? Do you have the same amount of venom for these organisations as Amnesty, HRW and the UN?
If the answer is yes, have you not wondered why you are so hateful of organisations that set out to protect human rights - all human rights?
Personally, I don't care what colour the uniform is or the person wearing it is, on an emotional level I find killing disgusts me. When I see Israelis or Palestinians killed, it disgusts me equally.
On an intellectual level, killing and persecution does not achieve peace. Yes, maybe it does in the short term, however, long-term, no, it can't.
The state of Israel was conceived in the wrong way (like most states it was forced upon the Palestinians), however, it has been conceived and there must be a way forward without bloodshed.
If you look at other modern states then it can be done.... South Africa has become an integrated democracy, the US is at peace with the native Americans and now has a mixed race president and India is also the world's largest democracy incorporating many rival factions.
You're right, something has to give in order for progress and in other examples of post-colonial states making progress, the major concessions come from the occupying colonials.
I know you have certain beliefs based upon ancient history but there's just no precedent for this, and if there was, it would throw the world into complete turmoil.
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Two important points from Obama's Cairo speech:
1) To the Palestinians, "Resistance through violence and killing is wrong and does not succeed."
Use of the word "Resistance" recognises they are responding. They are not the cause. But they must endure the violence from Israel and not fight back.
2) Of their treatment and conditions he said, "So let there be no doubt: the situation for the Palestinian people is intolerable."
Intolerable: it will not be tolerated.
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The speech of Obama was sincere and honest. Enough criticism It is now time for the muslims and muslim world to answer the call and come with open hand .
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In answer to the point that Israel causes the problem itself TrueToo's response to All.my.Marbles was:
#370 "That's blaming the recipient of abuse simply for being him/herself. You can't believe that, surely."
President Obama believes that. Emminent Jewish lecturers believe that. Moderate Jewish leaders in Britain believe that. And many more.
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Ref 369, Maria
"Can someone explain to me why President Obama said "women should be allowed to lead traditionalist Muslim lives" but never added "and Muslim women who choose to lead independent, non-traditionalist lives should also be free to do so without fear of intimidation, punishment or ostracism?"
I suspect he simply chose to emphasize the need to respect the traditions and values of other cultures rather than promote pro-Western ideals in a part of the world where our lifestyle is not welcomed.
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Obama's speech is clear, the first task Israel must do is stop the settlements:
"The United States does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements. (Applause.) This construction violates previous agreements and undermines efforts to achieve peace. It is time for these settlements to stop. (Applause.)
But already Netanyahu has refused. He must change his policy completely. It undermines the peace effort.
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359 TT: "Your no. 341 is unimpressive"
I didn't expect you to be impressed by me pointing out that you lied about providing evidence.
TT: "Yet another person who can't answer the points I have made and so resorts to personal attack"
I asked for impartial assertions that Israel committed no war crimes and I asked for evidence of UN or AI bias, as we are not allowed to believe their reports from ground.
There was none.
You also do not concede that the IDF would have any motive to falsify the casualty count.
So why is it that I owe you any responses to anything?
As for the personal attacks accusation, I think this accusation is a tool you use to try and discredit people when they make a point that would expose the frailties of your argument or your blind defense of Israel.
I think you patronise people purposefully to reduce them to insults so that you don't have to try to answer the unanswerable.
Example: above you start to say I was 'taken in' by the fact that all accounts of the conflict point to Israel committing war crimes, except for IDF's version of events. You'd have to be stupid not to see this is as patronising talk, and I don't believe you are.
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Ref 359, TrueToo
"Whenever I point this out, as in your belief that rockets from Gaza are fired at the "occupied territories," when in fact they are fired at undisputed Israel, you "remain mute." Not big enough to admit your ignorance, I guess."
Yes, the statement you keep bringing up was incorrect and did not reflect the reality that the State of Israel has been a sovereign nation since it was created for reasons that range from divine "rights" to the need of finding a home for the Jewish survivors of the Holocaust.
I do not share the same opinion of you, instead of considering you an ignorant I believe you are a highly skilled propagandist intent on distorting reality to transform one of the most powerful nations in the world into an innocent victim that deserves the support and sympathy of everyone. To make your point you engage in the demonization of your victims, who constituted tha majority of the population in what is today known as Israel before 1948.
I am not impressed with the tactics used by Hamas to raise public awareness in the West, not only because their rudimentary rockets and AK47s are ineffective against one of the most powerful military forces in the world, but because their futile attempts become a justification for retaliation against a civilian population