Will we now get the truth about military adventures?
Those who were hoping to use the Somali Pirates issue as a metaphor for an already failing presidency have had a tough time explaining the apparent measured and successful approach taken by the Obama team to what their enemies were hoping was a Khrushchev moment.
The real point is this, though. Under President Bush, tales of military daring sometimes turned out to be exaggerated, and in some cases unforgivably false.
Under President Obama, are we to learn the unvarnished truth even when politics tempts the administration to dress things up? They made a good start with the pirates by refusing to engage in breast-beating before or after. If the generally acknowledged truth of the encounter (that the pirates had to be killed) turns out to be unchallenged, then this event is not just a decent little piece of steel for the Obama spine; it is also a very important readjustment from the days of serial overstatement.
This is not to say that killing them was right or wrong (morally or practically) but just that a war story, calmly told, unadorned and un-politicised, will burnish Mr Obama's image more than a thousand gung-ho tales that turn out to be tall. This is the lesson of the Bush years.
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I don't know why you dignify flake sites with a link, such as that on your first one.
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The site on the second link is just as foolish as the first. The judgment of history takes more than a couple of days.
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The outcome of the Somali pirate incident showed, without a doubt, the resolve and pragmatism of our young President. Instead of making premature statements and engaging in political posturing he worked quietly, behind the scenes, with the commanders on the ground and when faced with the prospect of having to pay ransom for the release of a US merchant marine captain or risking his execution he did not hesitate to order lethal force.
Violence is not a solution to most problems, but appeasement when faced with a real threat against our citizens is simply not an option. President Obama deserves credit for the way he handled this "crisis", for not making bombastic statements, and for not taking credit for the work done by our men in uniform. Well done.
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Justin and Moderators: Are you aware the link you give in the top line leads to a page with an advert Headlined, "BARE NAKED ISLAM" on which extremely anti/offensive-Muslim Videos, Articles etc. are easily accessed?
I have absolutely no brief for the world of Islam, however, some of the stuff is to say the least very raw and crude.
I am not saying it should not be available but I am asking if you were aware of the Content as it would seem to breech some BBC EDITORIAL GUIDELINES?
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I think any US President would have responded in much the same way. Some have called this the first act of piracy against a US ship since the era of the Barbary Coast pirates, but the last incident was in 1975, when Ford was president: http://www.usmm.org/mayaguez.html
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"Why US go and destabilise Somali in the first place?"
I would like to know this. US shoud have anticipated that this will result.
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This is just one of the most weirdest post. Anyway the bottomline is peace for everyone seems hard to attain in this chaotic world.
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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Ref 6, Wil
I am not sure what your point is. Thousands of ships go through the Suez Canal, the Red Sea, the Gulf of Aden and on international waters off the coas of Somalia. Dozens of ships have been captured by Somali pirates the last few years and ransom has been paid for their release which, clearly, encourages more piracy. Are you suggesting the USA should stop its merchant marine business, or simply avoid that part of the world? Personally, I think we should arm our cargo and passenger ships so that they can defend themselves from this type of attacks, and an international NAVY fleet should patrol the Somali coast with ships, planes and helicopters to minimize the probability of pirate attacks and protect international commerce.
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To#6 Wilng
Good question.
Unfortunately there have been times when our politicians "sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind. While I have some understanding of the desperation people can experience under these circumstances, piracy really cannot be tolerated.
The US ship that they hijacked was carrying aid supplies for Africa. If the pirates just took food or medicines, I could have a little sympathy for them but they are holding people for ransom. Are they using this money to feed hungry people or for other purposes? I do not know and I am not that well informed on this particular subject.
To# Saintdominick
Well stated, as usual.
I think our young man is doing quite well and does not require the approval or intervention of journalists.
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I'm with Dominick on this. Well played Mr President!
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To#11 Hesiodos
There seems to be something amiss in the kitchen again.
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I interpret Wil_Ng questions to be referring to US involvement in Somalia in the early 90s. Suggesting that that destabilized the country and led to this result.
That is my interpretation no necessarily my views.
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Any link which calls itself "Stop the ACLU" is automatically suspect in my book; the responses to Warner Todd Huston's piece make interesting reading though - virtually none of them agree with him. Nevertheless, I take issue with the wording to the link: Those who were hoping to use the Somali Pirates issue as a metaphor for an already failing presidency since it appears, to me at least, that Justin considers Mr Obama's short time in office to demonstrate that - and the First Hundred Days is not yet up. Furthermore this event is not just a decent little piece of steel for the Obama spine implies that the President is spineless and needs some kind of assistance. Considering his approach to the economy, I would consider that an offensive observation.
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12, aquarizonagal -
The kitchen has moved to Russia to pal around with Obama and Medvedev. And I hope nobody fiddles with it this time!
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12 At 00:55am on 15 Apr 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:
To#11 Hesiodos
There seems to be something amiss in the kitchen again.
Yes. It's moved, but the samovar is bubbling away merrily there; there'll be a glass and a slice of lemon waiting.
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Three pirates down; one captain standing. I rate that as excellent! Of course you may have to know just how challenging it is to put a bullet in a 4"(10cm) bullseye at 100 yds(92m) from a stationary shooting bench at a shielded shooting range to understand just how "expert" the marksmen that rescued the captain truly are.
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Much ado about nothing. This was merely a blip that will quickly be forgotten, if the pirates do not escalate things. And, much as I hate the bloodshed, this really was the only alternative. It was the shipping companies' willingness to pay huge ransoms as merely a cost of doing business that encouraged the interest in piracy in a lawless land, and the cycle has to stop somewhere.
Before someone starts bashing the French (as the offensive link did,) the French commandos do not mess around. Much like the Russians during the Cold War- there was a (grim) reason why hijackers rarely struck against Aeroflot.
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While I normally support most of Justin's posts- this is his blog, after all- I do think that the links on this one went just a bit too far. If we had to dig this deep to find a disapproving opinion from somewhere on the right (even orbiting beyond sight like this) then perhaps the rescue was generally well thought of... These links are far and away the most far-fetched of any I've seen on any blog, including some of the ones from whacked-out posters.
Though I must say they bring a spot of levity- perhaps the intent?
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Justin:
Will we now get the truth about military adventures? I think that we will get some information but, not the entire truth....
~Dennis Junior~
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Sadly, the right wing of Republican Party is trying to politicize this topic. I don't think that there is anything to Politicize. There really wasn't anyother thing the Navy could have done to get the hostage out Alive. They tried to do a raid, but called it off when they realized that they had gone through with it, the hostage would have been killed. Using snipers was probally the only thing the Navy could have done. Thank god it worked.
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The reason there was little breast-beating before the incident is that there was no guarantee the operation would successfully save the life of Captain Phillips.
You can bet your nodding Portuguese water dog that if Phillips had died then the BBC and other media outlets, gunning for Obama, would have been very quiet about who authorised the operation.
Is this Mission Accomplished for Obama? Well we all know what happened the last time we thought that.
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No western democracy can handle a failed state today. The Romans could, and I'll bet the Russians and the Chinese would have little trouble.
It may soon be impossible for a democracy to wage war. Congratulations.
What amazes me is this piracy has gone on for years, and has been tolerated by the shipping companies as a cost of doing business - to be covered by an insurance policy. No body hurt, just pay the Somali entrepreneurs their fees and go on. Removing this kind of banditry used to be the way heroes were made in all the B movies, be they westerns, cape and sword dramas, or high-seas swashbucklers.
Is this the preferred model for future business innovation? Stick it to somebody where you know their insurance will pay you off - and everybody wins?
Oh, wait - that is how the financial markets are organized these days.
Somehow it smells of corruption, of efficiency-gobbling graft, albeit under the cover of humanitarian passivism, or pacifism as you like.
If it is criminal society should stop it, not tolerate it. Like dealing drugs, it will be legitimate when the perps pay their taxes like anyone else. So back to the beginning, I guess what we need is an effective government in Somalia, one that can collect the taxes on these entrepreneurs.
KScurmudgeon
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I don't know what kind of conclusions one can draw either way from
this incident. There are plenty of more pirates based in the failed
state of Somalia. In fact, I doubt that Obama had anything to do
with the situation, as it is far too complex to be micro-managed
in Washington.
The international community is going to have to work together to
solve this problem. Nation-building is beyond the capabilities of
any one country.
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Im not entirely sure what the story from 2004 about the athlete killed by friendly fire has to do with the pirate situation in Somalia, but I do think that Pres. Obama and the Captain of the US destroyer made the right decisions; and I also know that it was the excellent skill of American snipers that saved the life of the Captain of the Maersk Alabama, rescuing him on Easter Sunday. As for the way other nations have handled the pirates, I would say that the French are one of the few nations to have really shown some backbone and should be commended, which is ironic given recent history.
On another point of interest I would like to point out that Somalia has a President(Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Ahmad), a Prime Minister (Omar Abdirashid Ali Sharmarke), and a Parliament. The problem is that this government is based in Djibouti, and hard line islamists and warlords ineffectively rule this fragmented non-state that was drawn up and designated as a place by a world that can not believe such a stateless country can exist.
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I just can't understand for the life of me why the rest of the world tolerated the piracy in the first place. It took an attack on a US ship before anybody even thought about retaliating. Why did we not blockade their port, bomb a few key targets, and start intercepting and questioning suspicious craft years ago when this first started? It could have been nipped in the bud. The woolly liberal response by the various nations, the almost automatic payment to the pirates, the general hand wringing etc., only made the pirates see how lucrative this activity could be in a world that was too lily-livered and/or disorganised to punish them for their wrongs. Now there are hundreds of pirates, ships are captured daily, and they have become well-armed and well organised. Well done the US and Obama. Shame on the rest of the world for their cowardice and inaction.
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Somalia has had effectively no national law (or order) for 17 years now; the current mess is partly the creation of the US which armed and supported warlords for its own purposes (as it did in Afghanistan--sound familiar?) then, when there was what looked like the beginnings of some form of national organisation through the Union of Islamic Courts, harried them, poured money and weapons into the warlords again and supported a failed invasion that solved nothing.
The piracy began when trawlers from other countries took advantage of the lack of governmental control and effectively destroyed the fishing grounds that were the only means of support for coastal Somalis. (The coast, by the way, is nearly 2, 000 miles long, which has some bearing on the whole business.)
Originally it took the form of armed raids on ships, maritime robbery, really, and escalated into what amounts to kidnapping ships for ransom.
By now, some hundreds of millions are thought to have been paid out for the return of ships, cargoes, and crews. Where that money goes is extremely obscure, to say the least, but there is no sign whatever that it is going into the hands of the Somali "entrepreneurs" who actually attack the ships. If that were the case, they would by now have been able to arm themselves with considerably more dangerous weaponry and equipment than they have (the recent use of rocket-propelled grenades notwithstanding, since those are hardly rare in Somalia.)
One has to assume that now all the proceeds are sitting in some vault well away from Somalia and funding some pretty lavish lifestyles. (But not those of the pirates themselves. You only have to read some of the descriptions of some who have been caught to know that.)
Obviously some western governments must have a pretty good idea of who is organising this and who is profiting, but there is nothing said about it, which leads me strongly to suspect that it has been people or organisations that for various reasons the US wanted to turn a blind eye to. It's been done often enough before. In some ways, this is just another unintended consequence. I trust Obama has enough 'spine' and 'backbone' to avoid any more. I daresay there will be plenty of people howling for Somali blood, bombing them back to the stone age and so on pretty soon.
I'd caution against too much enthusiasm. There are at least a dozen merchant ships and their crews held now; Each crew averages 25 (modern ships, no matter how big, can be sailed by a handful of crew: no more than half-a dozen, in fact, except that they do need to sleep and eat) which explains why they are usually so easy to overpower. (Once the pirates have got hold of two or three from the cabins, no amount of armament on board can stop the takeover, unless the captain is willing to sacrifice his own crew.) it is believed that most of those ships have more pirates on board than crew members, so a series of 'commando' raids on pirate-held ships in harbour somewhere is likely to be disastrous.
The area of sea that has to be patrolled to protect shipping is enormous. The pirates are apparently using some ships as 'mother vessels', rather akin to the way U-boats were supplied in the Second world War, which means the operate not just from the 1,900 mile coast line (how many navies would you need to watch that alone?) but a hundred or more miles out to sea. We are not talking about making safe an area like Chesapeake Bay, not even the Gulf of Mexico, but something much, much bigger than even the North Sea. When a ship is attacked, even with naval ships from China, India and the NATO countries -- the USA joined only relatively recently -- the nearest naval ship can be hours away.
I have heard one report that suggested some ships are being convoyed, but this is not WW2. It takes time to gather ships together to make up a convoy, time which few shipping lines want to pay for. And then, the naval resources to effectively protect the numbers which use that shipping route aren't there. At least, not unless the US, for instance, deployed its entire Navy to do it. Nor can you turn merchant vessels -- most of which are bigger than most naval ships -- into gun platforms. Imagine the potential for 'friendly fire' incidents.
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27. At 08:21am on 15 Apr 2009, LippyLippo wrote:
"Why did we not blockade their port, bomb a few key targets, and start intercepting and questioning suspicious craft years ago when this first started? It could have been nipped in the bud."
Yes, it's that easy, isn't it? Until, for instance, you look at a map. See my 28.
(If it was that easy, how come hundreds of tons of heroin, cocaine and marijuana still arrive in the US from the sea? "Why did [the US] not blockade their port, bomb a few key targets, and start intercepting and questioning suspicious craft years ago when this first started?" to utilise your own suggestion.)
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Justin, simply playing "Devil's Advocate" and offering up sleazy weblinks have seriously weakened your "Blog Site," recently.
I expect much more out of this blog site than I've seen of late.
The comments are good, but the material seems half baked. So very sorry to tell you this, but hopefully you will offer better and more challenging "opposition" positions in future. Please do not take this personally. I'm sure that you mean little in harm by posting "loony" links and will do much better in the future.
There must be, for instance, articles by conservatives (somewhere) with relatively reasonable opposing viewpoints to our "hero" Obama:)
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Justin, you are a bit quick with your praise of military prowess shown by President Obama. Obama had given standing orders for the military to take "decisive action" if Phillips was in "imminent danger". Translation, if anything goes wrong...do something!!!
The difficult decision, as well as the responsibility, was laid at the feet of the Captain of the USS Bainbridge and executed by the SEAL team. President Obama did not make any difficult decisions, and you can bet dollars to donuts that if the SEAL's messed up it would have been the Captains screw up.
While I disagree with your burnished image of a steely spined President Obama, the only mistake President Obama made was not responding to a direct question concerning the pirates and simply dismissing it as off topic. Bad form on his part. An easy one sentence response would have removed any criticism.
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Justin wrote:
The real point is this, though. Under President Bush, tales of military daring sometimes turned out to be exaggerated, and in some cases unforgivably false.
I think you have completely misinterpreted this incident. If I understand you correctly you are suggesting that the fact that this soldier was killed by friendly fire somehow compromises his courage in the face of enemy fire.
I also fail to see what this how this reflects negatively on George Bush. All armies are understandably sensitive about the issue of fatalities due to friendly fire.
And I'm wondering how the dears of the left wing media would have reacted if Bush had been the Commander-in-Chief during the operation against the pirates. I guess they would have given him no credit at best, and found a way to sneer at him for disregarding the "rights" of the pirates at worst.
All credit to Obama, the US navy and the captain for his courage. It's an inspiring story. For those who haven't read it:
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/12/somalia.pirates/index.html
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27. LippyLippo,
It hasn't all gone the pirates' way:
http://newsx.com/story/49406
http://newsx.com/story/47236
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/10/somalia.france/
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32. At 09:24am on 15 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
Justin wrote:
The real point is this, though. Under President Bush, tales of military daring sometimes turned out to be exaggerated, and in some cases unforgivably false.
I think you have completely misinterpreted this incident. If I understand you correctly you are suggesting that the fact that this soldier was killed by friendly fire somehow compromises his courage in the face of enemy fire.
Nothing of the kind. Since you obviously (as usual) prefer your own misinterpretation to the facts, I'll quote from the article justin linked to:
"the investigation results indicate that Cpl Tillman probably died as a result of friendly fire while his unit was engaged in combat with enemy forces," Lieutenant-General Philip R Kensinger told reporters at the Army Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg.
Cpl Tillman's status as a national hero will be hardly dented by the new details of his fate. It is an embarrassment for the US military, however, which had earlier given a fairly detailed account of the events leading up to his death. In that version, Cpl Tillman was said to have died after the second unit in a two-unit convoy came under attack and he turned back with his men to help his comrades.
"Through the firing, Tillman's voice was heard issuing fire commands to take the fight to the enemy on the dominating high ground," read an army citation when the soldier was awarded the Purple Heart and Silver Star posthumously for valour. "Only after his team engaged the well-armed enemy did it appear their fires diminished."
It now appears that an Afghan soldier who was alongside Cpl Tillman as they returned to the first unit was mistaken as an enemy combatant by one of the US soldiers and fired upon. Other US soldiers began shooting in the same direction, at which point Cpl Tillman was fatally wounded. It seems, moreover, that there were no enemy soldiers in the vicinity at the time.
That is usually called a cover-up. There was also the 'heroic' rescue of a 'maltreated' woman private from an Iraqi hospital, wasn't there?
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Have you actually looked at this site carefully Justin.
It features a pic of Uncle Sam, apparently deep in thought on a bush dunny can and the piece is written by someone called "Tom Suhadolnik"
How you can take such things seriously is beyond me.
Don't you have a tained news antenna which lets you know "far right US loony gibberish" before wasting your time with such pap?
There are properly educated right-wing commentators in the US who have occasionally sane views (the Sarah Palin farce identified the more responsible of them).
It is far wiser stiocking to them.
Though one has to say when it comes to political commentators the US seems to have a high number of outright lunatics.
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No easy solutions here. A reactive response that doesn't deal with the basic fundamentals- chaos on shore, shipping companies writing off ransoms- will not be able to totally suppress piracy. Not that we shouldn't try; with the sophistication of our navies and combined numbers, a good safety net can be constructed to interdict much of the traffic as they leave shore or strike.
But it will not be foolproof. As long as the rewards are seen to outweigh the risks, pirates will continue. We can deal with the shipping companies' willingness to pay, but I don't think anyone will be able to stabilize Somalia without buyin from the Somalis themselves.
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#32 TT,
"All credit to Obama, the US navy and the captain for his courage. It's an inspiring story"
I'm with you on that one. Hats off to the shooters. Not to mention the crew of the Maersk that repelled the pirates, as well as the captain who gave himself to the pirates to protect his crew. A true hero in my mind.
I wonder what the pirates were thinking though, being seriously out-gunned....between a rock and a hard place (or warship...)?
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#36 Via
"Not that we shouldn't try; with the sophistication of our navies and combined numbers, a good safety net can be constructed to interdict much of the traffic as they leave shore or strike. "
It would be great if some form of international anti-piracy force was sent in. China, Russia, the US, plus a host of other countries all have interests there. Wouldn't it be nice if they all worked together for once....
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38. At 10:46am on 15 Apr 2009, SaintOne wrote:
#36 Via
"Not that we shouldn't try; with the sophistication of our navies and combined numbers, a good safety net can be constructed to interdict much of the traffic as they leave shore or strike. "
It would be great if some form of international anti-piracy force was sent in. China, Russia, the US, plus a host of other countries all have interests there. Wouldn't it be nice if they all worked together for once...."
Since we may assume that the Somali pirates are not inspired by tales of long John Silver and talking parrots a good way to resolve this problem might be to look at the dire state of the Somali people and seek to address this.
Paying for a few child health clinics, free food distribution, innoculation campaigns and, oddly enough, some football fields and coaching would probably work more wonders than threats to a people to whom death is always round the corner.
The present euphoria over the US captain is likely to prove short lived. Future raisers will almost certainly seek to place charges in the ships they attack
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#39 Simon
"Since we may assume that the Somali pirates are not inspired by tales of long John Silver and talking parrots"
As inappropriate as it is, that mental image made me laugh.
"Paying for a few child health clinics, free food distribution, innoculation campaigns and, oddly enough, some football fields and coaching would probably work more wonders than threats to a people to whom death is always round the corner."
Obviously that is something that should be happening, but it's more of a long term fix. Someone has to do something in the short term...
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Justin
A bit of a double standard here, Bush would have reacted the same way. And the left would have admonished him for killing the pirates and not negoitating.
Also you fail to mention that Obama did not follow through with a meanigful punitive strike.
BTW are you going to even mention the Tea Party protests?
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Ref 31, Rod
"President Obama did not make any difficult decisions, and you can bet dollars to donuts that if the SEAL's messed up it would have been the Captains screw up."
President Obama made a difficult decision, as CIC, when he authorized our NAVY to use lethal force, if necessary, to save the life of Captain Phillips. As opposed to his predecessor, President Obama has not taken advantage of this highly successful rescue and has, instead, given all the credit to the NAVY and the hostage for the successful ending of this ordeal.
As for the probability of President Obama blaming the Bainbridge captain if anything had gone wrong, that seems unlikely considering his willingness to take responsibility for things that have gone wrong since he was Inaugurated less than 3 months ago. Take a look at recent history if you want to find leaders with a propensity to pass the buck.
I don't have a problem with Republicans criticizing policies or voicing concern over specific issues, but their tendency to criticize, distort, and denigrate everything President Obama does does not say much for the intellect and vision of his opponents. That's OK though, 2010 is fast approaching and anything that helps expand the Democratic majority in Congress is welcome. Keep up the good work!
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I agree with Simon on the pirate issue, the long term solution involves investment in Somalia designed to create a robust infrastructure and, at the same time, provide employment to tens of thousands of unemployed and starving young men whose only option is warfare and piracy to provide for the substenance of their families.
Unfortunately, such approach would take time and something must be done to address the situation today. Piracy can not be tolerated, and paying ransom only prolongs the agony. Every nation with merchant ships traveling through the region should contribute to the establilshment of an international naval force capable of patrolling the area to preclude reccurrences, and merchant vessels should be equipped with machine guns to repel attacks until military help arrives.
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#41
"And the left would have admonished him for killing the pirates and not negoitating"
I'm assuming you have magical abilities that let you see alternative outcome of events?
Obviously it would have been better for everyone to get out of the situation alive (with the pirates in jail), but even if Bush ordered the shooting, considering the pirates were pointing a gun at a civilian I wouldn't hold it against anyone who made the decision....
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41. At 12:33pm on 15 Apr 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
Justin
A bit of a double standard here, Bush would have reacted the same way. And the left would have admonished him for killing the pirates and not negoitating."
A bit of selective memory here. Bush's Somali policy was a colossal failure.
Just ask the Ethiopians.
Another success for intelligence
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41 MagicKirin wrote:
"A bit of a double standard here, Bush would have reacted the same way. And the left would have admonished him for killing the pirates and not negoitating."
Magic 41 _ instead of indulging in pointless speculation about what the media may or may not have done if Bush were still president; how about you actually give us a proposal, comment or opinion on the topic.
Just a thought.
Simon 39 - spot on.
So many of the world's problems could be improved by basic health, education, sanitation and human rights that we in West enjoy.
However in the current situation there are no easy answers. I think the shooting of the pirates to free the captain was the only option in the circumstances. Short term response must be short and sharp, but backed by humanitarian aid to the Somali people, with the knowledge that piracy will not be tolerated. Carrot AND stick.
We are in a catch-22 situation, as if we do not react strongly this piracy could be seen as a "good option" in other poor parts of the world.
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Simon,
- "Another success for intelligence"
Of the real sort, not the sexed-up sort.What a change.
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british-ish 28
Very informative post. Thank you.
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What I think is interesting, Justin, is that the media have come into this situation with the default position that President Obama is somehow weak on defence, and that this pirate business is proving "his critics" wrong. While I appreciate your contrasting Obama's lack of breastbeating with Bush's behaviour - which was exactly the opposite, even going so far as to making things up - we wouldn't be having this discussion if Obama were a Republican. We wouldn't have the media talking about Obama doing his job as being a "decent little piece of steel for the Obama spine." That very statement shows us where you come from on this issue - that your default position is that Obama is weak, or at the least somehow less than optimal, on strategic defence matters.
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37. SaintOne,
Yes, a true captain protects his crew to the last man.
34. british-ish,
Do try to tear yourself away from insult mode, if you possibly can.
Look at this key phrase:
....as they returned to the first unit...
That is, the engagement occurred, didn't it? He engaged the enemy shortly before the friendly fire incident. As I said, he's no less of a hero for being killed by friendly fire. To describe the army's initial description as unforgivably false is really over the top, in my view. We don't know from this article if it was a deliberate cover up at senior level and exactly when they became aware of the facts.
But you appoint yourself judge and jury here.
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50. At 2:10pm on 15 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
"That is, the engagement occurred, didn't it? He engaged the enemy shortly before the friendly fire incident. As I said, he's no less of a hero for being killed by friendly fire. To describe the army's initial description as unforgivably false is really over the top, in my view. We don't know from this article if it was a deliberate cover up at senior level and exactly when they became aware of the facts."
But it does follow a disgusting paatern of using dead and wounded soldiers to support a failed policy.
Admitting your hero was killed by friendly fire would undercut the propaganda advantage you were trying to gain.
Apart from the fact that it demonstrates an appalling lack of discipline and panic among US troops - similar qualities demonstrated in other incidents involving the deaths of British soldiers and thousands of innocent civilians.
One is reminded of the cooked story of the female US soldier in Iraq captured by Iraqis. This also turned out to be a pack of lies.
Interestingly apparently ther was a real story of US female courage in the face of the enemy - but that soldier was black. She apparently still wonders why her sacrifice was not thought as worth celebrating as her white counterpart.
Incidednts like this show the US army to be about as trustworthy in its media relations as the Israeli ie not at all.
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46. At 1:45pm on 15 Apr 2009, RomeStu wrote:
Simon 39 - spot on.
So many of the world's problems could be improved by basic health, education, sanitation and human rights that we in West enjoy.
However in the current situation there are no easy answers. I think the shooting of the pirates to free the captain was the only option in the circumstances. Short term response must be short and sharp, but backed by humanitarian aid to the Somali people, with the knowledge that piracy will not be tolerated. Carrot AND stick.
We are in a catch-22 situation, as if we do not react strongly this piracy could be seen as a "good option" in other poor parts of the world."
Well of course. It seems that many cannot get into their heads that human beings will always try to get out of starving to death etc.
It would please many on the right if the deprived and hungry would meakly accept their situation and die quietly,out of sight and without fuss, but that has never happened.
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Ref 41, Magic
"A bit of a double standard here, Bush would have reacted the same way. And the left would have admonished him for killing the pirates and not negoitating."
May I suggest you focus on real policies and events instead of hypotheticals?
A cursory review of U.S. history would tell you that both Democrat and Republican administrations have declared wars, have intervened in the internal affairs of other nations, and have supported or advanced policies designed to defend our national security and our interests. Insinuating Democrats are incapable of defending our interests is simply not true. For better or worse, both parties share responsibility for our foreign policy since they became the two dominant political parties in our country.
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Obama's administration seems to have done OK - I wonder why these pirates don't just quickly re-organize and arrange to get private contracts to keep the shipping lanes safe from themselves, like any other piratical entrepreneur or financier would.
I will mention the tea party. It would be much more astute to have tobacco parties as that commodity is highly taxed ... plus you could add health advocacy to the goals of the protest. Are they having these parties mostly at country clubs? Since my tax situation is improving I did not receive an invitation.
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#52 Simon
"It would please many on the right if the deprived and hungry would meakly accept their situation and die quietly,out of sight and without fuss, but that has never happened."
While I'm sure there are some people that think like that, please don't fall into the trap of generalising people of a certain political spectrum based on what a couple of people with extreme views say. You will end up become what you hate the most!
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I'm afraid the thought that everything is the west's fault, and if only we gave aid the situation would be different is just fallacious.
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Ref 56, Sean
"I'm afraid the thought that everything is the west's fault, and if only we gave aid the situation would be different is just fallacious."
In my humble opinion everything that happens around the world is not the West's fault, ultimately, individuals are not only responsible for their destiny, but are the best suited to influence change, but denying the effects of our policies and actions overseas is simply disingenous.
I am convinced that providing assistance to countries on the verge of social collapse is the best way to prevent anarchy, and violence and influence stability. It may not solve all problems, but employed people are more apt to accept their fate and work towards a better future than those who have nothing to lose but their lives.
I think it is important to consider the effects of the policies and actions of powerful nations throughout history when they sought opportunities in weaker nations to satisfy geo-political or economic goals. What is happening today is not an aberration, but an example of what has taken place since the earliest days of human civilization in Mesopotamia. The consequences of policies and actions undertaken to expand our sphere of influence and wealth should not be denied or minimized, and accepting responsibility for some of the problems afflicting developing and under-developed nations is a moral imperative that should not be ignored.
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56. At 3:25pm on 15 Apr 2009, seanspa wrote:
I'm afraid the thought that everything is the west's fault, and if only we gave aid the situation would be different is just fallacious. "
Is it? We tried sponsoring an Ethiopian invasion, then refused to pay so the Ethiopians lost control and the country plunged back into chaos.
Previous the Somali Islamic Courts had taken over, Mogadishu markets opened, endemic banditry was ruthlessly, if not brutally suppresed, and the country saw some order for the first time in over 20 years.
But the West screamed Al Queda, dropped bombs and sponsored the formentioned invasion.
And now complains that a people with nothing to lose take matters into their own hands.
Givng the Somalis something other than bombs and hunger would be a nice change after decades of not so benign neglect.
For let's face it, without the adventures of these later day Captain Pugwashes who would give the slightest fig for the condition of the Somalis?
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55. SaintOne,
Good point, but Simon21 is incapable of absorbing the concept. He's already gritting his teeth for his next rant.
56. seanspa,
Now ain't that the truth. Hopefully the age of white guilt is slowly coming to an end. Colonialism has been dead and gone for around half a century and it's high time Africa stood on its own two feet.
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54. At 3:11pm on 15 Apr 2009, frayedcat wrote:
Obama's administration seems to have done OK - I wonder why these pirates don't just quickly re-organize and arrange to get private contracts to keep the shipping lanes safe from themselves, like any other piratical entrepreneur or financier would."
I think we may assume this is happening in spades. Not all ships are attacked and it would be interesting to note those that get away.
If millions are involved I would not be surprised to learn the pirates are themselves contracted to others.
Of course this is not the only area whre piracy exists. The Indonesian archipelego is also riddled with it as are the seas off Thailand.
In the case of Indonesia the Australians had strong suspiscions the Indonesial navy was (is)directly involved.
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Simon, neatly completely missed the point of my post. How convenient. The person inked to was not involved in arming anyone. He was involved with an organisation trying to deal with hunger. It did not prevent him from being murdered. And this was not after the pirates emerged, it was well before.
Cut and paste spouting is all very well on a soapbox, but doesn't work very well in response to points made.
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Ref. 7 (my own post)
I don't know if this post was ever displayed, but if it was and someone took offense to it, I apologize. On reflection the joke I ended the post with (about the pirates) was decidedly off color, and I agree with the moderator's decision to remove it.
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I found this report on US involvement in Somalia. I know that some will say it is a one sided report and so completely dismiss it. Well to those I say, when was the last time you provided an impartial link. You won't understand anything until you see both sides.
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“Merchant and pirate were for a long period one and the same person. Even today mercantile morality is really nothing but a refinement of piratical morality.”-Nietzsche
“EXILE, n. One who serves his country by residing abroad, yet is not an ambassador. An English sea-captain being asked if he had read "The Exile of Erin," replied: "No, sir, but I should like to anchor on it." Years afterwards, when he had been hanged as a pirate after a career of unparalleled atrocities, the following memorandum was found in the ship's log that he had kept at the time of his reply:
Aug. 3d, 1842. Made a joke on the ex-Isle of Erin. Coldly received. War with the whole world!” - Bierce
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May I just say good it is to see Captain Phillips has moved on from his disasterous marriage to the Princess Royal and has started anew with a career on the high seas?
Admiring Sam
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Simon, neatly completely missed the point of my post. How convenient. The person inked to was not involved in arming anyone. He was involved with an organisation trying to deal with hunger. It did not prevent him from being murdered. And this was not after the pirates emerged, it was well before."
Sorry your point is what exactly?
A white missionary is murdered in Somlia (thousands of Somalis are butchered many by western supplied guns etc each year but let that pass) and you seem to think this means er what?
That Somalia a is a dangerous place? Wow what a discovery.
You take this one man to be indicative of the West's concern for the Somali people?
One man?
Let me enlighten you.
In Mogadishu you (be you nice and white or coloured) could be shot for your second hand wrist watch - no matter what your personal qualities might be.
Indeed it is not completely unknown for good people to be murdered in nice white countries by those they are trying to help.
Sad but very true.
"Cut and paste spouting is all very well on a soapbox, but doesn't work very well in response to points made."
I suggest you make them then and don't make yourself ridiculous by impying the unfortunate death of one individual justifies the neglect and brutal treatment of millions over decades.
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59. At 4:09pm on 15 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
"56. seanspa,
Now ain't that the truth. Hopefully the age of white guilt is slowly coming to an end. Colonialism has been dead and gone for around half a century and it's high time Africa stood on its own two feet."
Oh I thought you believed "dark hued" (your words) people were incapable of ever ruling themselves effectively.
I thought this was why you were nostalgic for aparthied?
Did I get this wrong?
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#41
Magic,
Alternatively Bush would have mumbled something about Pirates being evil and trying to get his Dad before blaiming the Kenyans for the piracy and invading Nairobi.
Observant Sam
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65. At 4:39pm on 15 Apr 2009, SamTyler1969 wrote:
May I just say good it is to see Captain Phillips has moved on from his disasterous marriage to the Princess Royal and has started anew with a career on the high seas?
Admiring Sam"
Yes I noted that. I think he is still, all things considered, better off.
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Ahoy mateies,
Since the topic be related to Pirates, should we not talk like the thieving bilge rats themselves?
September 19th be International Talk Like a Pirate day, me beauties.
Yarrrrrrr
One Eyed Sam
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63. At 4:36pm on 15 Apr 2009, seanspa wrote:
You might like to consider this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1672220.stm
Just a story at random, worth looking at before talking about non-western interference in Somalia.
How many somalis suffered because of this do you think?
And, oddly, I cannot find anywhere in the story the US offering to provide a viable substitute so impoverished fmailies could get their money and feed their children, buy medicine etc.
Surely it can't be that the most powerful nation in the West did not actually give a toss about a desperately poor black nation its president had probably never heard of.
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63, seanspa -
Thanks for that link. I realize it can't be seen as completely objective but it does explain a lot that I have a very hazy memory of at best. I couldn't remember what the U.S. was doing there in the first place.
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#68 Sam,
Don't forget the pirate axis/rudder/crows nest of evil
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The point, as Simon well knows, is not that one white man was killed in Somalia. It is that many people were there for purely humanitarian purposes in the early 1990s. Trying to avert hunger. Why the UN sent an armed force to the country, made up of a wide range of counties from around the world.
The problems, deaths and turmoil were caused by civil war and power struggles between warlords. If someone can actually provide some evidence that the US or the UN caused this then I would be happy to see it. I do not doubt that some western elements may have assisted the instability, but until I see some evidence otherwise, I remain of the belief that the overwhelming response was one of trying to help feed starving people.
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Simon21, you are twisting people's words again. This does the opposite of advancing your argument. In fact, it makes you sound like a twit.
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68. At 4:46pm on 15 Apr 2009, SamTyler1969 wrote:
#41
Magic,
Alternatively Bush would have mumbled something about Pirates being evil and trying to get his Dad before blaiming the Kenyans for the piracy and invading Nairobi.
Observant Sam
Mr Bush would probably have become confused over the demonstrable lack of wooden legs and that fact Blind Pew and his mates had become black.
However he would have pulled himself together. Looked up the Ladybird book of Pirates -
And promptly ordered the levelling of Kingston Jamaica.
"Them that dies 'll be the lucky ones!"
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seanspa -
Any reasonable person would have understood your point. Sheesh, I don't like the heat, think I'll go back to the kitchen. Yarrhh.
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Simon, thanks for the link in #71. I agree that the action would have impacted Somalis. Do you know whether there was any truth in the US accusation, or do you think t does not matter? Was this a permanent and blanket ban, or did other facilities spring up quickly? I will certainly look further at this.
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#28 british-ish
Thank god you made the cause/effect point - great post.
Perhaps this episode illustrates that there are limits to even what President Obama can do in terms of clearing up the West's mess.
Consequently, local fisherman in West Africa are turning to the cocaine trade for the same reason - European boats plundering fish stocks.
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78. At 5:19pm on 15 Apr 2009, seanspa wrote:
Simon, thanks for the link in #71. I agree that the action would have impacted Somalis. Do you know whether there was any truth in the US accusation, or do you think t does not matter? Was this a permanent and blanket ban, or did other facilities spring up quickly? I will certainly look further at this."
I honestly have no idea. But I do know that many in the third world depend utterly on remittances and cutting them off like this must have had a disastorous impact.
These are countries where you are turned out of hospital still bleeding if you do not have the funds (I did hear of an operation actually being stopped midstream in one African country).
Whether the two companies were "connected" with Al queada is not the point (whatever connected means).
If an Al Queada company ran the local and only resevoir that would not jsutify suddenly and without providing alternatives cutting off all water supplies to everyone.
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Simon, further to #71, replacements didn't take long. Did you not find this, or did you stop when you had the story you wanted?
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Sean's Dad (81),
Two months is a long time in some perspectives....and wasn't it in Somalia that we bombed an innocent pharmaceutical factory (if that ain't an oxymoron)?
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"The outcome of the Somali pirate incident showed, without a doubt, the resolve and pragmatism of our young President. Instead of making premature statements and engaging in political posturing he worked quietly, behind the scenes, with the commanders on the ground and when faced with the prospect of having to pay ransom for the release of a US merchant marine captain or risking his execution he did not hesitate to order lethal force."
Oh please. If Obama had so much resolve why didn't he order the SEALs to assault the lifeboat and effect a rescue? I suspect because it would mean putting his own reputation on the line, if something had gone wrong he'd his popularity might have suffered.
Instead he gave orders to let the FBI negotiate and for the military to refrain from action unless it appeared the captain was in imminent danger--at which point there would be nothing to lose by taking action and if it went bad his staff could blame fate or poor excecution by the SEALs.
In other words, Obama got lucky: the pirates made a false move, the SEALs took the shot, Captain Phillips escaped unharmed and Obama gets to bask in the reflected glory.
Meanwhile, more ships are being attacked and American sailors' lives endangered while our naval ships on anti-piracy patrol are still shackled by rules of engagement that force them to act more like traffic cops writing speeding tickets than pirate hunters. Obama's resolve and pragmatism don't exacly seem to have the pirates quaking in their boots.
I will say one thing for Obama's policy on the Somali pirates: he hasn't tried to solve it by throwing money at it and that's a rare thing in his administration.
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Seanspa 63 and simon21's link at 71 is to a BBC story from November 2001.
It seems to me that the best response to both suspected terrorist activity and failed states would be multilateral and regional, rather than unilateral by the USA, China or Russia, or international from the UN or some other remote agency. NATO has a place in the European theater, but looses it's relevance and moral authority in Africa or the Middle East.
But if these multilateral and regional responses don't have the will to be effective, as the African Union often fails to have, what do we do? Somalia is a botched job, as is Haiti, Zimbabwe and a number of other places in our world.
Is a nation built with an American imprimature, or a Russian, or a Chinese, or an Iranian, with consequent extension of their hegemony an acceptable price to pay for stability - when this can be successfully arranged at all? What alternative is available for Nigeria, Georgia, or Armenia or Turkmenistan? Or Tibet? Breeding instability is the way powers increase their influence, and always has been. A lot of the instability we know today is the result of imperial meddling, in Iraq from the time of the Assyrians to Northern Ireland in the time of Elizabeth I and James the first-and-sixth, or in the Balkans under the Byzantines and Ottomans. Israel is a solution to a European problem imposed on an Arab neighborhood.
Local solutions are always best, but sometimes need disinterested help from outside, if that is even conceivable. Different people can get along in the right environment, but happiness with diversity is sometimes anathema, and even in the USA and Europe has taken centuries to learn. And it may be unlearned pretty quickly because intolerance is generally an easier, politically more powerful path.
Who is wise among you?
KScurmudgeon
grateful for innumerable blessings
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1. I just wondering why I just wondering why Mr. Justin Webb waste his time and our time to argue with such silly red neck sites. Aim at O'Reilly :).
2. Back to Pirates and Somalia. US hawks tend to oversimplify other countries problems with "invade-n-rebuild" approach. Different countries have different cultures. Democracy is not accepted well in most clan/tribal societies.
3. The simple solution is to temporary limit maritime traffic to few guarded corridors while ransom all hostages. After that bomb pirates shore facilities to the ground. It will also affect real fishermen if any left.
4. BBC would have local 'hero' journalist to claim that all killed are fishermen and boys from local communicates.
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Do I need to explain to you now, ed? The point was that the US was not trying to destabalise Somalia by this action. And the factory was in Sudan, not Somalia.
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63, seanspa, good link. non-Americans on this blog should go watch
"Black Hawk Down" and you'll understand why the Clinton administration
declined to get involved in Rwanda.
It's going to take a lot more than a few blue helmets to fix the
problems of the region.
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82. At 5:52pm on 15 Apr 2009, Hesiodos wrote:
Sean's Dad (81),
Two months is a long time in some perspectives....and wasn't it in Somalia that we bombed an innocent pharmaceutical factory (if that ain't an oxymoron)?
and 80. Simon21:
To my point, exactly.
Unilateral interventions are mostly ill conceived. The best understanding as well as the best food, is local.
KScurmudgeon, hungry
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67. Simon21,
Yes, you got it wrong because you insist on putting words in people's mouths and telling them what they believe in the most insulting language that the moderators will allow. This is why I mostly ignore your comments because there is no point in responding to such juvenile rubbish. I'll respond to this one since it miraculously has an almost civil tone to it.
I have said that Zimbabwe is finished and that South Africa is the most crime-ridden country on the planet but I don't believe blacks are incapable of ruling themselves. There are success stories in Africa. Would be good though if the social engineers of the left with their tunnel vision would stop insisting that all is sweetness and light in post-apartheid South Africa, simply because that's what they always thought would happen and that's what the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was supposed to bring about. It didn't, or it hasn't so far, and no amount of wishful thinking will change that fact.
Those who hold South Africa up as a shining example of what can be achieved with the resolution of other conflicts should take the blinkers off and actually look at what is going on in that country.
And if Somalia is a failed state with no government that is hardly the fault of the West.
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There are many countries that went through total destruction and disintegration.
Russia in 1913-1924 country went through WWI, revolution multiples famines, starvation, epidemics, foreign invasions and civil war. 10,000,000's were killed. Still emerged as a solid nation in 1930's. Defeated Germany (that controlled whole Europe) in WWII.
Germany in 1917-1920's defeat in WWI, revolutions, epidemics in 1930's back on track.
Germany 1945: defeat in WWII, country in ruins after war. Remained industrial infrastructure was taken by Russia as reparations. Germany went back on track in ~ 7 yrs.
Japan 1945: defeat in WWII, country in ruins after war. Most industrial infrastructure was bombed to the ground by US. Most cites residential areas wiped out by US bombing including two nuclear blasts. Japan recovered in 10 yrs.
My point:
Don't blame West for Somalia or Africa failures. Until Africa counties emerge as solid nations rather than tribal/clan societies they will be exposed to all problems of tribal societies. People who feel that West is unique just study medieval European history. The same story as Africa today wars/famines/epidemics following by epidemics/famines/wars.
-Sergey
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Sean's Dad,
- "The point was that the US was not trying to destabalise Somalia by this action. And the factory was in Sudan, not Somalia."
Thanks for the correction. I don't believe we need to be trying to have a de-stabilising effect....Peace and consideration
Hesiodos
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Ref 83, Scott
"Oh please. If Obama had so much resolve why didn't he order the SEALs to assault the lifeboat and effect a rescue? I suspect because it would mean putting his own reputation on the line..."
I realize that anything short of a sequel to "Gunfight at the OK Corral" is unacceptable to the party of NO, but as difficult as it may be for you to accept this 53% of us voted for a change in direction and a new way of demonstrating leadership while defending our interests and championing our values at home and abroad.
President Obama listened to the advice given by the commanders on the ground, such as the captain of the Bainbridge, and acted accordingly. Yes, he gave the pirates a chance to surrender, but when they appeared to threaten the life of Captain Phillips our President's orders were followed and the NAVY SEALS handled the situation admirably. The same can be said for the French NAVY a few days earlier.
I know that acknowledging success and being gracious when a Democrat does something right is difficult for members of the party of NO, but do you honestly believe people share conclusions like the one you expressed, or agree with the ridiculous tea parties that place the blame for an incomprehensible tax code and tax rates on a man who has been in office less than 3 months and who has actually provided tax relief for the middle class?
Quite frankly, I doubt the deceit and distortions of yesteryear are going to take you guys very far this time. You had your chance and you blew it!
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Ed, curmudgeon has pointed out the date of the story. November 2001. You may find that the action on closing down 2 companies in somalia was connected with trying to defeat Al quaeda for an incident that had happened 2 month earlier.
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#77
Yarrr me buxom wench.
Prepare to be boarded!
Sambeard
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Sean's Dad,
I recognised the date fine. I remember the refrain of "Why would anyone do such a thing to us?" The air of injured innocence, when anyone with half a brain could make a list of reasons as long as a gorilla's arm....
I was surprised by the event (who wasn't?) but never in doubt about the motives. Letters home and considered meditations
Obama's on the right track, but it's been a long, dark time, and a long way to go to the light...
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
P.S. A wave from the "naughty step" to Curmudgeon from a fellow stay-at-home...
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Well, ed, there we will just disagree. Clearly there were reasons for 9-11 (valid or not), but I haven't seen anything yet to justify any claim that the west screwed up somalia in the 90s.
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SKV_USA #90.
"Until Africa counties emerge as solid nations rather than tribal/clan societies they will be exposed to all problems of tribal societies."
reading the four examples you give before making this point, do you argue that just because these people live as tribes/clans that's excuse enough for outside interference and the consequent "wars/famines/epidemics"?
that would be like MarcusAureliusII justifying decimating the North American Indians -- sick.
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29,28 At 08:36am on 15 Apr 2009, british-ish wrote:
Yep it is easy to bomb and that exactly what supposed to be done.
The simple solution is to temporary limit maritime traffic to few guarded corridors while pay ransom for all hostages.
Fox New Estimates are: ~5 clans (fishermen clan/communities)involved in piracy that total ~1500 pirates. It takes some infrastructure to maintain seaworthy mother ship that can carry 2-3 speedboats 800 mi off shore. Local community now see pirates as hero and breadwinners. Just make piracy uneconomical by denying them ground base.
1. Bomb shore infrastructure (fuel/repair facilities).
2. Sink most mother ships.
3. Level couple most outstanding palaces.
In country like Somali it takes big effort to replenish even simple machinery.
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On Somalia
No great evidence of "Western" meddling in the nineties, plenty of colonial past (including British perfidy), and a "gunfight" with US casualties:
- "Bin Laden also claims responsibility for a 1993 gunfight that killed 18 U.S. troops in Somalia"
One wonders what US soldiers were doing there...Peace and care
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Ed, wonder no more. See my link in #63, while I read yours.
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Ed, there was indeed plenty of meddling by many, including turks and arabs as well as Britain and Italy. What precipitated the current mess though seems to be Somalis interference in Ethiopia, in retaliation for Ethiopian action nearly 100 years earlier. No hint of any US interference, I notice, until they tried to relieve the famine in 1992 that had killed 300000 people. What rotters.
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Thanks. I hadn't read it. The final paragraph kinda says it all...
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
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Ed, actually I'm not sure whether it does or not. The big question remains, should you stand by when somewhere is hit by famine and do nothing? Surely the answer is no, but then what do you do? The experience in Somalia has now resulted in the subsequent tragedies in Rwanda and Darfur. Trying to help without troops doesn't work, helping with troops who fight back doesn't work and helping with troops who aren't allowed to fight back doesn't work. So what does?
People live in parts of the world where there will always be famine, floods and other natural disasters. Local help is no help in these circumstances.
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How can anyone possibly say what "the real point" is without knowing "that killing them was right or wrong (morally or practically)"??? As usual the blustery 'boys on the bus' ensconced in their "fetid little bubble" are right to the point in dwelling on the electoral political calculations of photo-op moments like this and the publicity spin associated with it, while blithely dismissing any moral concerns. So at least we know the U.S. gunned down three more uppity natives but if we're going to now get the "unvarnished truth" about "military daring" perhaps Amerika could start making similar exact body counts of all it's other uncounted victims in Iraq and Palestine and Afghanistan and elsewhere? How many notches will quick-draw Barack have in his gun before he's done, with or without the "breast-beating"??
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Where's sam when you need him?
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Ref 104, Douglas
"So at least we know the U.S. gunned down three more uppity natives..."
What is the alternative? Are you advocating anarchy and condoning criminal activities when they are perpetrated by "uppity natives"? Guess what, I am also an uppity native of the USA and if I hijacked a ship, took its captain hostage, and pointed an AK-47 at his back I would end up the same way those other uppity natives did.
There is a difference between stopping criminal activities and invading countries, changing regimes we do not like, trying to impose our culture on others, and insisting on other people abandoning traditions that are offensive to us. Trying to establish a parallel between stopping piracy in the high seas and the crusades we have engaged in in recent years is absurd.
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I like pirates. These have been fairly non violent...till now. I think they should just be reorganized into the Somali Navy and get regular pay and benefits for patrolling their seas.
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Be glad Bush isn't around to run anti-pirate operations. He'd bomb Port Royal.
(But New Providence is closer. . .)
alfuso
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#105
Avast there! I be here me hearty!
Sambeard
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97. At 7:56pm on 15 Apr 2009, jr4412 wrote:
==
reading the four examples you give before making this point, do you argue that just because these people live as tribes/clans that's excuse enough for outside interference and the consequent 'wars/famines/epidemics'?
==
"wars/famines/epidemics" are not result from West interference. Unfortunately history of every tribe/clan society full of wars/famines/epidemics. They quickly multiply and expand during good times that result in wars for resources. They die out during famines/epidemics.
You can check for dynamics of such societies: "The Black Death: Natural and Human Disaster in Medieval Europe by Robert S. Gottfried"
I see at least two reasons to interfere:
When people die in numbers (Rwanda (600,000-800,000) / Darfur (200,000-600,000???) etc). West has no excuse to stay aside.
When they interfere with my West -> like piracy.
There is no single authority on territory that people consider The State Somalia.
So there is no reason to recognize these territory as part of sovereign state. Each tribe/clan that engaged in piracy should be address individually... with cruise missile... Carrot and whip.
That what US end up doing in Iraq, Afghanistan.
Again don't pretend that Africa is different from Medieval Europe. May be pre-Medieval Europe.
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#90
Avast there Sergey, ya swishbukling rum waster!
Germany recovered from the lootin' and plunderin' with huge amounts of American booty (that's pirate for gold, not the other booty) under the Mitchell plan (he wasn't a Pirate). Only west Germany recovered in 7 years, east Germany looked like me cabin after a bottle of rum and a game of full contact scrabble with the cabin boy (Roger).
Japan wasn't nearly so ravaged other than the nuked bits. Again American booty fixed her up like a treat under Cap'n Macarthur, a heck of a Pirate.
The difference is N Africa is we're all out of booty (still have plenty of the other side).
Speaking of which, I'm off for a spot of wenching
Cap'n Sambeard
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#107
Yarr, you should only be liking the right kind of pirates. Those somali lads need a touch of the old belaying pin round their trunions.
But I like the cut of yer jib, young lad
Cap'n Sambeard
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As the sayint gos, the truth shall set you free.
Noone (but especially people in positions of power!) of any party, in my opinion, should exaggerate or blatontly lie about any incident to make themself, or their cause, look worthy or good. But Justin, you are kidding yourself if you honestly believe that telling "gung-ho tales that turned out to be tall" was a practice only engaged in by George W. Bush!! Unfortunately, I think every preddicessor to Bush, to some extent, engaged in this type of reprehensible behavior, and while it is certainly welcome, I think that Obama may be the first president to genuinly make an honest attempt at telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth to the American people, no matter how short lived it may end up being.
Bush certainly was the worst of the liars by far! And what I find most disheartening about the article about the professional athlete who joined the army after 9/11, was that Bush very well knew the truth of how the man died!! But instead of praising a true hero who payed the aultamit price for his country, Bush was soo conserned with his own image and his own misguided cause, that he instead flat out demanded the military lie about the cause of this man's death, and the only reason the truth came to light was due to the (relletively) free American press under the Bush administration!! No wonder this stratigy works wonders for the world's dictators!!
Regarding your questioning of whether the killing of the pirates (in this particular incident) was right or wrong, the only response I can muster up is "huh?" You continue to baffle me! You'll give all the creedence in the world to a Republican's attempt at rationalising an illegal war in Iraq started on lies and false pretenses, but God forbid some Navy Seals protect one of their fello countrymen from his imminent murder by a couple of thugs!!
I don't understand you sometimes!
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#104
Avast there Douglas,
You lilly livered land lubber. Any pirate wot points a gun at another Cap'n deserves a lick of the cat, and a musket ball in the noggin.
Back to me wenchin'.
Cap'n Sambeard
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#112...erm....ain't no cabin boy tho
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sam, thanks. The thread needed that.
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Sambeard -
The appropriate response is in the kitchen. So sorry you've been misled.
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Arrggghhh me hearties.
All this talk of sea faring, pirates, and the like puts me in mind of the opening of Conrad's Heart of Darkness.
Your remember, the crew of the Nellie waits in the estuary of the Thames for the tide to change, and Marlow starts going on about how Britain was once a "dark place," and about the difference between the Roman "conquerers" and the modern "colonists." "The conquest of the earth," Marlow says, "which mostly means the taking it away from those who have a different complexion or slightly flatter noses than ourselves, is not a pretty thing when you look into it too much. What redeems it is the idea only."
Now, as the novel turns out, the European "idea" of bringing "civilisation" is found to be a bit, well ... conflicted, let's say. Is there some, perhaps more transcendent, "idea" that justifies the American Empire? Something, em, "exceptional," that elevates us above mere conquerers?
The full text of the novel here. Well worth a re-read.
Arghhhh,
Pinko
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What we see going on in Somali waters and on the high sea is a result of the Bush Doctrine of Preemptive War. After allowing North Korea to make its last arms sale, which was to the Ethiopians that was paid for in dollars by the Ethiopians. Now where would Ethiopia get enough dollars to pay for enough weapons to arm their army for the invasion of Somalia except from Bush and company.
The Bush coterie paid for the arms and paid the Ethiopian Army to invade Somalia because of the establishment of the Peoples Courts that finally brought the civilian population safety from the feuding war lords. Bush seeing these courts as a threat to the Horn of Africa arragenged for the Ethiopian invasion under the pretext of seating a Vischy government waiting in Kenya.
After the Somalis were defeated, Bush wanting revenge for Black Hawk Down, allowed the Somalis to starve just as the Afghanis had been deserted after the Russians were routed. Desperate, and financed by Others in Dubai, the Somalis went into an ancient trade of piracy.
I must admire the pluck of those Africans because they are not begging the West for Food Aid, but have decided in the American tradition of Self Reliance. All my life I have been told that Blacks are lazy. Those Somalis are anything but lazy. They are quite clever in anwering the Bush Doctrine of madness and terror.
No excuse I suppose, but it is a lesson that if people are left to their own devices, they will survive by hook or crook.
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42. saintDominick wrote:
President Obama made a difficult decision, as CIC, when he authorized our NAVY to use lethal force, if necessary, to save the life of Captain Phillips.
Like I said, the DIFFICULT decision was left up to the Captain of the USS Bainbridge. It's that little disclaimer (if necessary)that puts the onus on the Commander in the field and removes it from the CIC. I happen to think President Obama did the right thing. I just disagree with who actually had to make the tough call and Justin's assertion that this successful rescue gives Obama a steel spine.
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"President's orders were followed and the NAVY SEALS handled the situation admirably."
Agreed, the SEALs handled the situation with the skill and professionalism for which they are justly famous. And I would have been astonished if the president's orders hadn't been followed, there has never been a mutiny aboard a United States' warship.
My point was that President Obama, instead of being daring and issuing clear orders along the line of "take the pirates out and free that man ASAP" worded his orders in such a way that left it up to local commander to take action and then took credit for it when it turned out right. He's hardly the first president to do that but it wasn't as resolute as some people were making it out to be.
I'm curious: if, as Secretary Clinton stated today, American government policy is not to pay ransoms or yield to hostage takers' demands why send the FBI to negotiate with the pirates? Was it a stall until the SEALs could get in place?
As for the 53% mandate for change I'd feel a lot better about it if he hadn't pushed Congress to vote for his stimulus bills without giving them time to even read them, let alone debate them. That isn't good for the public interest no matter which party is calling the shots and as a former professor of constitutional law Obama should know that.
No, I didn't vote for the man but I understand his job is too important to wish him to fail at it. Unlike his followers suffering from Obamamania I also recognize the man is merely a politician and thus not to be trusted blindly or completely.
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mary, if a significant number of somalis had acted as you suggest you may be onto something. Instead it's a small number, run by a smaller number of increasingly wealthy individuals helping themselves and not helping the country at large. I fail to see what is to be admired. Unless of course you have equal admiration for the top dogs of the likes of AIG who helped screw the country to significantly benefit themselves. Then I could see, but still disagree about whether it's to be admired.
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"Is there some, perhaps more transcendent, "idea" that justifies the American Empire? Something, em, "exceptional," that elevates us above mere conquerers?"
The best justification I can offer for America is that in spite of our many failures, shortcomings, hypocracies and other not so savory aspects, immigrants are still beating a path to our door. That tells me that although we aren't by any means perfect we're a darn sight better than a lot of the rest of the world and other people recognize it.
I like to think that part of what draws them here are the ideas expressed in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Inalienable rights endowed not by government but the Creator; that the People, not government, are sovereign--even after a couple centuries it's still pretty heady stuff.
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121, Scott: "My point was that President Obama, instead of being daring and issuing clear orders along the line of "take the pirates out and free that man ASAP" worded his orders in such a way that left it up to local commander to take action and then took credit for it when it turned out right."
I must have missed something. What I heard was Obama giving credit to the men who carried out the operation. And what I appreciate is a president who is fully aware that he is not a military man and defers to the judgment of those who are, and who are on the spot, and I appreciate a president who is concerned with minimizing loss of life, rather than a "daring" cowboy with a "bring 'em on" attitude.
Obviously the orders were clear enough for the captain of the USS Bainbridge and the Navy Seals to know exactly what they had to do and when to do it. For armchair snipers to sit at their computers and second-guess the decisions and actions taken in this situation is absurd.
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Well said Bere!
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Ref 121, Scott
"He's hardly the first president to do that but it wasn't as resolute as some people were making it out to be."
Personally, I don't think President Obama made a "heroic" decision by issuing an order to use lethal force if necessary to save the life and rescue captain Phillips, he did what most Presidents would have done under similar circumstances, but I think he handled this mini-crisis well and deserves credit for it. Listening to the commanders on the ground and leaving the final decision up to them is not a sign of weakness or a bad approach. In my opinion his role in solving this crisis is a recognition that warfare, and the successful resolution of problems such as the one we are discussing, are best achieved by those who have the best qualifications and ability to influence a successful conclusion to a crisis. IMO, if we had taken a similar approach in Vietnam there is a good chance we would not have had to flee that country the way we did. The acid test for President Obama is probably going to be North Korea.
I think it is important to reiterate that President Obama has not taken credit for solving that scuffle, has avoided the spotlight on that issue, and did not hesitate to give credit to the NAVY and captain Phillips for their courage and professionalism.
The stimulus bill was submitted to Congress with plenty of time to review, and judging by the number of examples of pork produced by Republicans in the House and Senate, they definitely took a very close look at it. The problem is that the opposition did not have an alternative, other than proposing an extension of tax cuts to the rich and letting the market forces correct themselves.
I am a fiscal conservative, and I am very concerned with the amount of money spent during the past 8 years and the amount of money we are going to spend the next couple of years, but given a choice between spending borrowed money on crusades and sole-source contracts to companies like Halliburton, and improving our infrastructure, education, healthcare, energy dependence, and environment I choose my country,
Sadly, the forces most responsible for the economic and fiscal malaise we are enduring are already out in force distorting the policies of this administration and using the same scare mongering that has dominated the Republican party agenda since the McCarthy era. I understand the need to rally the base and find a voice or cause to champion in 2010, but I wonder how many people will buy the latest sting...oops, sorry, tea party.
I don't agree with everything President Obama is doing or proposing, but as a whole his policies and personal attributes are a welcome alternative to what we had in recent years. He is the right man for these troubled times and, hopefully, he will remain focused and avoid the distractions the opposition is throwing at him.
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111. Begging yer lordship's pardon, Cap'n Sambeard.
Belay that on the Mitchell plan. It involved a court martial, and, later, B-24's from the Hornet. Might have been yer Marshall plan. A piratical Freudian slip perhaps?
"Heck of a pirate", indeed. Arrgh! Thought Cap'n MacArthur was more like an audience with the Pope: bit of a private ear, or a loose Canon, so to speak. At least until he was finally marooned ashore, with his letter of marque revoked by Admiral Eisenhower.
Bit concerned about Cap'n Sambeard being a bit too closely related to the infamous Captain "Have you ever been to sea, Billy?" Highliner, known to Bluenosers, Newfs, and channel surfers far and wide across the Dominion:
Rum wasting with Sergei at 111.
Full contact scrabble with the cabin boy, also at 111.
And the lash for Douglas at 104.
Pretty much covered Churchill's tripartite synopsis of the traditions of the Royal Navy. And then Wenching. Sounds like a very jolly roger in the Flashman tradition, that does.
As pinko might say, "The horror, the horror."
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127. Not B-24s. They'd be B-25's.
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Avast there!
Back from me wenching!
#127
Yarrrr
#121
Seagass!
#118
Arr!
#117
Blow me down and shiver me timbers
#128
They be. No they'd be.
All
Yaaaaarrrrrrggghhhhh!
Cap'n Sambeard
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re St Dominic, 127
I couldn't have said it better. Amen and fie on all them recalcitrant teadrinkers.
KScurmudgeon
shedding his liberal coat for the moment and showing truer colors
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It's worth noting that this ahsn't deterred the pirates. Only time will tell if the actions of the US Navy and the French Navy could backfire on these countries...
Ron Paul has a unique plan for fighting pirates- one that would cost less, and not involve the military or a declaration of war. It does sound crazy, but it might work...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20090415/pl_politico/21245
And while we're on the topic of pirates...
"When I sally forth to seek my trade,
I help myself in a royal way.
I sink a few more ships, it's true
Than a well-bred monarch ought to do.
But many a king on a first-class throne,
If he wants to call his crown his own,
Must manage somehow to get through
More a dirty work than ever I'd do."
-The Pirate King, from Gilbert & Sullivan's "The Pirates of Penzance"
"Now take Sir Francis Drake. The Spanish all despise him!
But to the British, he's a hero, and they idolize him.
It's how you look at buccaneers that makes them bad or good,
And I see us as members of a noble brotherhood."
-Long John Silver (Tim Curry) from "Muppet Treasure Island"
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#111. At 10:42pm on 15 Apr 2009, SamTyler1969 wrote:
#90
Avast there Sergey, ya swishbukling rum waster!
Germany recovered from the ... under the Mitchell plan (he wasn't a Pirate). Only west Germany recovered in 7 years.
Japan wasn't nearly so ravaged other than the nuked bits. Again American booty fixed her up.
You know nothing of Japan devastation. most residential areas were wiped out by special bombing techniques while industrial zones were bombed to the ground.
Mitchell plan is nothing compare to all type of aid that sunk in to Africa like into black hole.
So Cap'n Sambeard if in 20's your are not liberal you don't have heart if in 30's you are not conservative you don't have br-n :)
Unfortunately Arica's problem is not in amount of aid but in society structure aka tribal/clan structure. Same was true to Medieval Europe.
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St. D at 126 - That was a good post.
There are lots of people around the world who share your hopes and fears. Sort-of like that saying about "there are no atheists in foxholes", President Obama is the intended beneficiary of many, many heartfelt prayers.
Not sure it would have helped in Vietnam, because the expert on the ground was wrong for a long time. Ref.: "Vietnam - A History, Stanley Karnow"
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115. Frayde.
Not to worry, he's in the scuppers, befuddled with the rum. No doubt the wenches will be along presently to relieve him of his doubloons.
Early in the morning ...
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We had no other choice. These pirates are not heroes but rather criminals preying on the world. The held an US Citizen on the high seas and threatened to kill him. Sounds almost like indentured seamen and the War of 1812. The supplies were bound for the starving people of Africa. Most of shipping companies are afraid to confron the pirates. Maybe the answer is for the western navies to run convoys like we did in WWII from Amerika to England. But I wonder would it not be better just to make a financial arrangement with the pirates. In return for safe passage would it not be better for the shipping companies to pay a "transit fee". Makes more sense then spending millions of dollars on ransom.
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131, Orville3rd, I can just see it now - Dog the Bounty Hunter
tracking down pirates and bringing them back to justice.
118, Chronophobe, didn't you notice? The American Empire has dissolved
into a flurry of promissory notes.
And Sambeard - if you've had enough rum so that you can't tell
the difference between the cabin boy and a wench, you've had enough rum.
Time to sober up with some decent grog!
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I congratulate the US Navy Seals and the President of the United States in carrying out a successful operation in effecting the rescue of Captain Phillips. But it should also be remembered that nearly 53% of the voters voted for him, but also 47% did not vote for him. that means that there is an substantial amount of the Amerikan people did not agree with his vision for Amerika. We are willing to give him a chance to suceed, but he needs to walk away from the liberal left and govern from the center. If he continues his alliance with Harry Reid and Nancy Peolsi he will most likely allienate the middle class and be a one term president. Unlike Reagan, Clinton and GWB. allienate the silent majority middle class and you will soon find yourself in the unemployment line.
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#137. amerika_first: "If (President Obama) continues his alliance with Harry Reid and Nancy Peolsi he will most likely allienate the middle class and be a one term president."
Don't you wish! He has at least three years to demonstrate whether he is worthy of a second term and you certainly cannot judge his future by the past few weeks. You've been watching too much O'Reilly and Hannity and listening to Laura Ingraham and Ann Coulter.
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#136. gunsandreligion: "Sambeard - if you've had enough rum so that you can't tell the difference between the cabin boy and a wench, you've had enough rum."
Perhaps Sambeard's "cabin boy" was another Petit Jean (Adrienne Dumont) or Lucy Dewhirst, the former buried in Arkasas.
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#139, DC, since Sambeard appears to be under the weather after a busy
pillaging session, we can talk in confidence. It could be another Petit Jean,
or, that icon of Saturday Night Live, "Androgynous Pat."
I vote for Pat. When the effects of whatever Sambeard has imbibed wear
off, I'll bet that he still won't be able to tell what he did unless
whoever he did it with is cooking him breakfast, and he can positively
observe the presence or absence of facial hair.
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131 orville
"letters of marque" privateers to patrol the high seas????
Fine for the USA shipping, but some of us look a bit further than our own interests when looking to resove problems. You propose a big stick with a "get out clause" (it wasn't us that san that inocent fishing boat by accident).
Havig sid that, your muppet song about Francis Drake i an interesting choice as he was a privateer under Elizabeth I's letters, but of course the Spansh considered him a pirate.
What do we do when your modern privateers free non-US ships and then try to extort money from the owners for its release?
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SaintOne wrote:
#41
"And the left would have admonished him for killing the pirates and not negoitating"
I'm assuming you have magical abilities that let you see alternative outcome of events?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually the poster is correct, the left ALWAYS attacked President Bush when he took a tough stance against terrorists, now it is the benighted one doing the same, what do we hear from the left?, praise for his management of the crisis. Don't believe me?, check out the left-wing INTERNET forums over the last 8 years.
Ah the left, you make me laugh with your double standards.
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141. At 09:07am on 16 Apr 2009, RomeStu:
My jaw dropped as well. "Letters of marque"?????? And some people thought this guy should be a president?????
I won't go into the use of Letters of Marque in the 16th and 17th century, except to say that I very much doubt they are now possible under international maritime law.
Too many people seem to be confusing Somali pirates with Captain Sparrow and the Horn of Africa with the Caribbean. As I've had occasion to remark before, you don't get (I hope) political and military solutions to a problem from Hollywood. Though I do wonder sometimes.
It took a long time for the Royal Navy to eradicate piracy from the Caribbean and the South China Seas. And I'd like to correct the somewhat myopic view that it's only the US navy (or the French) that are patrolling off Africa now.
If you want to see how fatuous the idea of employing mercenaries might be, look at this map and the scale of the problem (and don't just look at the red line, but right along East Africa): http://www.shipping.nato.int/CounterPir
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#142 Rustigjongens
Your falling into the trap of generalising. And your points are wrong. As a "lefty" (more like "central-y", but everyone is to the left of the right, eh?), I had nothing against Bush's tough policies, or any other persons tough policies, on terrorists. However, Bush's administration seemed fairly unconcerned with determining who was a terrorist and who wasn't, and just bunched a group of people together.
Not to mention that the pirate incident was a hostage situation. If the president, whoever he/she might be, orders for a successful military solution (after negotiations, if possible, have failed) then it will always be treated with a nod of approvement. Surprisingly, I, and I would assume many other "leftys", don't care who gave the order, but are more concerned with the fact that the captain got away unharmed -especially given his heroic sacrifice to protect his crew.
And if you read some of my other posts, I think Bush did a couple of good things during his terms. But you can't convince me that the sun is/was shining out his backside.
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Ref 142, Rusti
"...the left ALWAYS attacked President Bush when he took a tough stance against terrorists..."
What the left criticized President George W. Bush for was changing his focus from the terrorists that attacked us on 9/11 to the pursuit of a crusade in Iraq, a country that had absolutely nothing to do with that tragic event. We also criticized him for using borrowed money to fight an unnecessary war that in addition to its immorality also served as a catalyst for the largest transfer of taxpayers money to corporations and individuals without congressional oversight or adherence to federal government procurement statutes.
Not surprisingly, the far right did not hold tea parties in protest for the largest sting operation in the history of the world and, not surprisingly, they are now tossing tea bags into the river hoping for a return of the good old days of plundering our treasure with impunity.
In the distorted world of American "conservatism" wasting money in replicas of medieval adventures and enriching the coffers of the wealthiest is the Christian thing to do, helping the middle class and the poor is evil, and providing capital to financial institutions to save capitalism is the ultimate manifestation of socialism.
The question is, how many people are going to buy this ruse again?
Forget Peg Leg, where is Captain Feathersword when we need him?
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Those liberal lefties, hands of the devil-always doing something gauche. I heard from Captain Leftbeard that one truth behind this military adventure is that Obama might have been frustrated the Seals took a premature shot to end the drama before negotiations could conclude peacefully- I mean - an AK47 was levelled at the captain the entire time weren't it? Truth and then truth...regardless BO kept a cool head and hand...left hand I think.
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146. Frayde
Yes, very sinister.
143. Br-i
"It took a long time for the Royal Navy to eradicate piracy from the Caribbean and the South China Seas."
Not sure it ever was fully eradicated from the SOuth China Sea - or from the Straights of Malacca.
The guys running this are probably enjoying life in some entrepot like Dubai,(or London, for all we know). Rooting them out may be a much more difficult task than killing a few poor Somali fishermen-turned-pirates.
Jefferson correctly identified pirates as hostis humanis. The annual cost of paying the Barabary pirates "protection money" would go on forever. So Jefferson sent the navy. It took a long time.
The problem with mercenaries, is, um, er, well, they are mercenary: Not unlike pirates. What a coincidence.
In fact, the reason why Letters of Marque were abolished is because Privateers and pirates were essentially indistinguishable. Once accustomed to privateering, the captains and crews found it hard to relinquish the concept of sailing for prize money. Very dangerous tactic.
Jefferson (and later Palmerston, in a similar but different context) decided that the only solution was to refuse to pay, and to go to the source. In the present context dealing with the problem on a root and branch basis probably means levelling the port of Eyl, if not other towns along the coast. But nobody has the stomach for doing that, and if you think ransom has been expensive so far, just wait until you put a carrier task force off the coast, or put a regiment of marines ashore. And so it will continue.
And the folks whose brothers and friends died at Easter will now be looking for revenge by taking Americans hostage, wherever and whenever.
Mind you, they might want to be careful about taking Chinese hostages or Indian hostages, or Russian hostages. Those nations may have a different view of the value of human life, and may not care quite so much about what appears on the 6 o'clock news.
Oh, yes, this story may run for a while yet.
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1. With all my respect to President Obama, I don't see him handling this accident. It is Snipers who were monitoring lifeboat for days. When they had 10-60 seconds while all 3 pirates were exposed to clear shots. They didn't have time to issue official request to president and his reply. Again everybody including did great job.
2. Obama has his share to handle. This is Big accident - Piracy.
He can either simply destroy the tread and set off liberals or go back to Clinton/Albright attempts Somalia nation building.
We have wast history of American attempts to build nations. Starting with Liberia and more modern Libanon/Iraq/Afghanistan. Somalia is already on this failure list.
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135. At 05:46am on 16 Apr 2009, amerika_first wrote:
We had no other choice. These pirates are not heroes but rather criminals preying on the world. The held an US Citizen on the high seas and threatened to kill him. Sounds almost like indentured seamen and the War of 1812. The supplies were bound for the starving people of Africa. Most of shipping companies are afraid to confron the pirates. Maybe the answer is for the western navies to run convoys like we did in WWII from Amerika to England. But I wonder would it not be better just to make a financial arrangement with the pirates. In return for safe passage would it not be better for the shipping companies to pay a "transit fee". Makes more sense then spending millions of dollars on ransom. "
I would be surprised if this was not already happening.
The convoy idea sounds Ok but of course shiping schedules are so tight waiting for the convoy to form would be prohibitively expensive
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81. At 5:36pm on 15 Apr 2009, seanspa wrote:
Simon, further to #71, replacements didn't take long. Did you not find this, or did you stop when you had the story you wanted?
Well that depends on your well-fed complacent idea of a long time doesn't it?
Perhaps your reading needs a litle assistance.
"Several investigations are underway, but so far the US has not provided any formal evidence of its claim.
The US sanctions meant tens of thousands of impoverished Somalis were denied access to funds from relatives abroad who used al-Bakakat's transfer system to remit money back to Somalia. "
Oh and Mogadishu is not like Cleveland USA as you seem to think
"
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96. At 7:56pm on 15 Apr 2009, seanspa wrote:
Well, ed, there we will just disagree. Clearly there were reasons for 9-11 (valid or not), but I haven't seen anything yet to justify any claim that the west screwed up somalia in the 90s."
Well that says more to do with your vision than with the facts de doesn't it
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/9/newsid_4013000/4013143.stm
Try reading this.
Oh and for your further educatin the West was akeen supporter of ethiopia which invaded Somalia
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Ref 148, SKV
The only people that appear to be consumed by President Obama's involvement in the Maersk Alabama incident is the far right. Us lefties are simply thankful to the NAVY for the splendid job they did, and happy Captain Phillips is enjoying freedom once again.
Regarding your comment about piracy being an accident, I beg to differ. There is nothing accidental about piracy, it is a lucrative "enterprise" that has been going on for a few years now with absolute impunity while we chase ghosts, pots of gold, and photo-ops in Iraq. It is time to act and put an end to it.
I was surprised to learn that conservatives no longer consider President Clinton and Secretary Albright liberals, and are actually giving him credit for his attempts to rebuild Somalia. Now, this is a change I can believe in! I guess what you believe is going to set off liberals is trade? Are you referring to hijackings and collecting ransom? Those activities can be best described as criminal...definitely not trade, and us "liberals" are 100% in favor of putting an end to them.
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110. At 10:32pm on 15 Apr 2009, SKV_USA wrote:
That what US end up doing in Iraq, Afghanistan.
Again don't pretend that Africa is different from Medieval Europe. May be pre-Medieval Europe. "
Perhaps learning something about Medieval Europe would be usueful?
What part of Africa is equivalent to Byzantium or Cordova.
As shocking as it might be to hear medieival people had nothing on their descendants for murder and cruelty.
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#136, 139 and 140
Avast there mateys! I be lootin'. I be plunderin'. I even occassionally be wenchin'. But I never be pilagin'. Pilagers do nasty things to wenches. They be needing a slapping around with me fists and me forehead.
But I be wantin' to know how them seals got their flippers through the trigger guard. It be strange when bad Pirates be killed by aquatic mammals.
Yarrr. Tis a fine day fer sailin' down the Hudson and plunderin New Jersey. I be off.
Cap'n Sambeard
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142
THE LEFT in America was non existent then after 9/11 for a while.
Because just about everyone here thought attack Afghanistan.
Only Pacifists were against it.And me
So you are wrong to say the left attack any force by Bush. They accepted a WAR.
And most americans were Gun Ho for it. left and right.
Just look at these blogs.
Drop bongs not bombs
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147. At 2:22pm on 16 Apr 2009, Interestedforeigner wrote:
146. Frayde
Yes, very sinister.
143. Br-i
"It took a long time for the Royal Navy to eradicate piracy from the Caribbean and the South China Seas."
Not sure it ever was fully eradicated from the SOuth China Sea - or from the Straights of Malacca.
The guys running this are probably enjoying life in some entrepot like Dubai,(or London, for all we know). Rooting them out may be a much more difficult task than killing a few poor Somali fishermen-turned-pirates.
Jefferson correctly identified pirates as hostis humanis. The annual cost of paying the Barabary pirates "protection money" would go on forever. So Jefferson sent the navy. It took a long time.
The problem with mercenaries, is, um, er, well, they are mercenary: Not unlike pirates. What a coincidence.
In fact, the reason why Letters of Marque were abolished is because Privateers and pirates were essentially indistinguishable. Once accustomed to privateering, the captains and crews found it hard to relinquish the concept of sailing for prize money. Very dangerous tactic."
Well quite. The idea is beyond lunacy. And what happens when one of these informal vessels shoots up another country's marque ship by error.
Or when it is discovered (as it often was at the time) that the mercenaries only seem to find the pirates after they have got their loot, which then mysteriously goes missing
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#132
Sergey me lad,
When yer spreading yer booty yer need a plan. Aid in Africa has been as organized as 50 drunk Pirates on the harbour front lookin' for wenches after a long bout of lootin'. Uglier than the bosuns backside on a Sunday.
The 20's quote be wrong. It be 'If you're not a socialist at 20 . . .'
It's often attributed to Cap'n Churchill. But he never said it, and his crew will lay you over a cannon and whip you with a lanyard for sayin it. It were made up by some crotch barnacle land lubbing right wing plank dancer.
The real quote be 'Not a pirate by 20, wuss. Still not a pirate at 30, bigger wuss'
Arrr!
Cap'n Sambeard
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"The best justification I can offer for America is that in spite of our many failures, shortcomings, hypocracies and other not so savory aspects, immigrants are still beating a path to our door. That tells me that although we aren't by any means perfect we're a darn sight better than a lot of the rest of the world and other people recognize it." - Scott0562
As they are also beating paths to western Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. It's because these countries are rich.
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"74. At 5:07pm on 15 Apr 2009, seanspa wrote:
The point, as Simon well knows, is not that one white man was killed in Somalia. It is that many people were there for purely humanitarian purposes in the early 1990s. Trying to avert hunger. Why the UN sent an armed force to the country, made up of a wide range of counties from around the world.
The problems, deaths and turmoil were caused by civil war and power struggles between warlords. If someone can actually provide some evidence that the US or the UN caused this then I would be happy to see it. I do not doubt that some western elements may have assisted the instability, but until I see some evidence otherwise, I remain of the belief that the overwhelming response was one of trying to help feed starving people."
Perhaps you should actually read your citations before trying to use them as evidence?
There were a variety of people in SOmalia in the 1990s dfor a variety of purpsoes.
The UN/US mission may have had the sweetest of intentions but it was a disaster and led to the deaths of thousands.
Subsequent attentps to sponsor invasions etc also led to many deaths.
Not to humiliate you I will not harp ofn whre the Somali militias got their guns from and the fact that one of the fiercest warlords was rased and edicated in the US and was I beleive a US citizen - much to the shock of the film crew interveiwing him
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Justin:
You have had 36 hours, please don't follow CNN's lead and ignore or disparage the Tea Party Tax Protests.
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155, happylaze -
And me. And I am not a pacifist. But, silly me, I simply couldn't understand why everyone was gung-ho for attacking a country that had not attacked the U.S. And then when the attackees dared to fight back against their attackers they were all labeled "illegal combatants" because they didn't happen to have uniforms.
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160. At 4:12pm on 16 Apr 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
Justin:
You have had 36 hours, please don't follow CNN's lead and ignore or disparage the Tea Party Tax Protests."
Yes Justin. A democractic resident and a democractic congress must be rattling in their boots at this terrible threat.
The trouble for these people is that they have the representation.
Just shows their grasp of their own history is as weak as their common sense.
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153. At 3:18pm on 16 Apr 2009, Simon21 wrote:
You seams to miss part even when you actually copied into your e-mail: "May even Pre-Medieval Europe".
It is hard to find anything equal to Byzantium or Cordova in modern Africa but at some point Africa had very developed nations Egypt, Ethiopia, Carthage :).
1. Piracy was mentioned by Ancient Greeks, Romans, etc all way up to XV century. Finally centralized governments put piracy at bay at least around most of Europe. So piracy is not unique to Africa but rather the lack of centralized government that able to deny pirates land bases.
2. My point that with current state of development in Somalia - tribal society. We cannot expect Somalia even with US help establish centralized government. Instead of going into new 'nation building disaster' US should just wipe out ground facilities and ships that used or can be used for piracy. According to FoxNews estimates we talk about 5 clans and ~1500 pirates.
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ref #162
Simon if you read the news this was entirly grass root. Unlike the Move on and Code Pink marches. there was no George Soros(the tax cheat) footing the bill.
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===
157. At 3:35pm on 16 Apr 2009, SamTyler1969 wrote:
When yer spreading yer booty yer need a plan. Aid in Africa has been as organized as 50 drunk Pirates...
===
That is classical liberal passage: Aid was not distributed wisely.
It was distributed wise enough in Germany, France, UK, S.Korea, Japan etc.
Russia recovered from 1913-27 WWI+revolution+civli war+interventions+starvations without aid. And recovered again after WWII without aid...
My point that may be Africa is not recovering but rather growing through... And faces all circumstances that associated with growth. Most of us overlooked these unpleasant circumstances during well cooked history classes. Like you speaking language of "Pirates of Caribbeans" rather than Pirates of Somalia. You peek it up in cinema with popcorn. The real language you cannot peek up because you would not survive even your trip to the class :).
1. Over last 50 yrs it was administrated every possible way.
2. I need at least one example when tribal society successfully jump into Democracy on scale of 25-50 yrs.
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161. At 4:25pm on 16 Apr 2009, bere54 wrote:
155, happylaze -
And me. And I am not a pacifist. But, silly me, I simply couldn't understand why everyone was gung-ho for attacking a country that had not attacked the U.S. And then when the attackees dared to fight back against their attackers they were all labeled "illegal combatants" because they didn't happen to have uniforms. "
This is very intersting for as far as I can make out whether you aer defined as a soldier, an enemy combattant (all soldiers are of course enemy combtaants, but we are not dealing with common sense here), terrorist etc seems to depend on whether you hae a spanking nice uniform.
I doubt if tailoring has ever meant so much.
Of course of the DoW, Lee, Napoleon etc cared little for uniforms (the DoW issuing only one order on the subject, that the troops must not wear the uniform of the enemy) and all came to lead highly sucessfull armies of enemy combattants and terrorists.
The SS on the other hand had excellent uniforms.
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Aqualass & Happy,
Add me to the list. The Taleban were offering to deliver Bin Laden (for a "fair" trial), but the Shrub wasn't listening....
- "And then when the attackees dared to fight back against their attackers they were all labeled "illegal combatants" because they didn't happen to have uniforms."
Oh, they had uniforms, just not ones registered in the USA's (probably secret) book.God(s) save us from such ill-advised and downright stupidly conducted adventures!
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
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All: Just a few thoughts:
1. I'm grateful to the folks who rescued the Captain, and sorry the pirates had to die. Death is final insofar as this earth is concerned, and eternity begins immediately, and lasts for...well, eternity. Considering the relative length of our earthly life and eternity, it's highly likely that we should think more about the latter than the former.
2. The sharpshooters had to hit their targets while both targets and sharpshooters were rocking on the ocean. That makes their shooting all the more remarkable, in my (perhaps uneducated) opinion. Bravo Zulu!
3. Obama's actions and reactions were political, as would have been the actions and reactions of anyone in the office. That is neither praiseworthy, blameworthy, or even noteworthy. He's a politician; what other behavior would you expect? Further, he's in a tougher job because folks think and expect that he can do miracles, and don't consider the 535 folks at the end of the Mall. Finally, he, and those 535 other folks, and the 9 elsewhere, and the millions and millions of folks underneath them in the Fed government, are in the business of governing, not providing a show or a horse-race for our benefit.
4. I agree with the person that said that this is just one incident in a long chain, and reveals nothing of substance about Obama or anyone else. It's also significant primarily because it made the news. How many more similar events (or events with greater import) occurred during the period that we don't know about?
5. I hate to write this, but watching some of the back-and-forth here between the "usual suspects" is confirming a suspicion that has been growing on me for a while: that our accumulation of biases and unresolved hurts not only afflict our understanding and appreciation of current events but even (particularly?) our recollection (not to mention our interpretation) of history. Those biases seem to hold forth much more sway than our ability to rigorously and non-emotionally integrate facts. Perhaps our pride in our ability to think rationally needs a bit more examination.
6. It's also becoming obvious to me that far too many folks (and not just on the Left and the Right, but on all points of the compass) maintain a launch-on-warning attitude with regard to even the possibility of a barb or insult coming in from "the other side". Further, in their drive to ensure that they defend "their side" and "correct" those folks on "the other side", folks more and more tend to use their words the way soldiers use automatic weapons...to deliver overwhelming suppressing fire. When did we decide that being a wordslinger (like a gunslinger) was a good idea?
It's too bad that we can't see the effects of our words first-hand, and see what we do to each other with them. Perhaps we'd use them a little more wisely. Perhaps, coupled with #5 above, we need to be a little more judicious in listening and sifting before pulling the trigger or launching the missile.
All replies are welcome, of course.
@Sam Tyler et al: The pirate speech is very entertaining, mateys.
Side note: Reminds me of the Bugs Bunny cartoon with Yosemite Sam cast as the pirate captain. Outstanding humor...you have to wonder what kind of places the old WB and MGM cartoon studios were to work in, particularly when Tex Avery was in full swing.
Regards to all.
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Ref 164, Magic
"...there was no George Soros(the tax cheat) footing the bill."
Only the "revolutionary" Dick Armey fanning the flames of hatred with a heavy dose of distortion and deceit to spice it up.
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Ref 162, Simon
"The trouble for these people is that they have the representation."
I beg to differ, the real problem is that Republicans still do not understand or refuse to accept the reasons they were so soundly rejected in November. As long as their focus remains on tax breaks for the wealthy, letting the market forces take care of our problem, and the need for crusades we "liberals" have nothing to worry about. Enjoy the tea! I wonder if it is from India or China...hopefully it was not purchased with borrowed money...
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#161
bere54 wrote
===
But, silly me, I simply couldn't understand why everyone was gung-ho for attacking a country that had not attacked the U.S. And then when the attackees dared to fight back against their attackers they were all labeled "illegal combatants" because they didn't happen to have uniforms"...
===
I can explain. While Taliban ruled over ~60%-70% of Afghanistan it wasn't recognized as Government. US asked Taliban to expel Al-Queda. In a week Taliban said that Al-Queda is honored guest and was given sanctuary. So US attacked Al-Queda and Taliban that was protecting Al-Queda.
I agreed that Afghanistan was/is hard to call a country. Without centralized government it is just tribal area. I my view it give any other country right to by-pass 'government' and speak/deal with actual authorities like gangs/tribes/clans.
Label "illegal combatants" is just a label. We can call them "bere54 friends". Legally speaking US had to put them apart from
1. "soldiers" because they didn't fought for legitimate government (Taliban was not recognized by UN).
2. "mercenaries" because it automatically make them criminals.
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Just come across these words of advice from Canada. Read to the end!
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@170 (StD): If I may suggest, if you look more closely you will find some folks hollering tax cuts, but a much larger contingent hollering about wasteful spending. Those two have to be separated and evaluated separately. Smearing them together isn't useful if we are looking for solutions.
I come down this way: We have a $55 trillion debt. It has to be paid. It's going to take both tax increases and spending cuts to get that done. I don't see any move anywhere to do both simultaneously, and haven't in all the years I have been following this. That forces me to conclude that the approaches of both political parties in this arena are flawed at best and completely useless at worst. By that measure we have made no progress since the time (1965, if my memory is correct) when Congress decided that the SS surplus could be used to offset the deficits in the general fund.
It can (and should, in my opinion) be argued that failure to properly (a) account for and (b) manage Federal finances for balance is inconsistent with the oath to preserve and defend the Constitution of the United States, and that those who fail to do so are being untrue to their oaths, and should suffer the consequences. Others may, of course, view this differently. Perhaps a class-action lawsuit taken up the line to the US Supreme Court?
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167. At 5:06pm on 16 Apr 2009, Hesiodos wrote:
===
Oh, they had uniforms, just not ones registered in the USA's (probably secret) book.
===
I hope next time Taliban will make sure their uniform on US books. As well as their honor guests don't attack US.
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At least with the quiet way the Somali pirates incident was handled by Obama we were spared the staged spectacle of him being helicoptered to the Navy task force on the scene in full military regalia to proclaim victory, unlike George Bush. Hopefully, that reveals substantially that Obama's approach to governing in general is vastly different from that of his predecessor.
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ref #169 and #170
Dick Armery is a private citzens and not a financier who built his fortune on the commodities market disrupting cxurrency flowss and not paying taxes.
The majority of people at these rallies were not Republicans
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Ref 173, Arc
I couldn't agree with you more. The problem is that the only way to save our way of life...or at least prolong the agony...is by borrowing more. Allowing what little is left of our industry disappear and letting our financial institutions collapse would not only result in the displacement of millions of American workers, it may very well be the end of capitalism and the demise of the USA.
I agree with you about the need to raise taxes and cut spending to pay our unfunded liabilities and national debt, but do you honestly believe the American people will such a preposterous notion? We live in a society where people want - and get - whatever their little heart desires without worrying about how to pay for it. Our government's debt, and for that matter our corporate and personal debts, are just irritants for someone else to worry about. When we reach our credit limits we simply get a new card and keep on charging.
Fiscal responsibility has been a thing of the past for decades, with the exception of a short lived attempt to straighten things out not too long ago, and it is unlikely such a bizarre concept as living within our means will come back any time soon.
Yes, I do understand why so many are concerned about the never ending spending sprees we have engaged in for so long, but where were they when the spending was being used to finance adventures that only benefited a few corporations and individuals, and where were the instigators of the tea parties when we were spending $1T a year in Iraq? Most, importantly, what do they propose to save our economy, financial institutions and way of life? I am afraid telecons with the Almighty and miracles are not among the likely probable solutions to the mess we are in which was caused, ironically, by out of control spending, bad investments, and accumulation of debt facilitated by ambivalent voters and deregulation.
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To arclightt #168
Expanding your wise words in point 5,
Would it help to list the symptoms that indicate irrationally biased postings or posters?
or identify collective actions to help encourage the contribution of wise words?
or does having something tangible serve a purpose?
A single unreasonable extremist is unlikely to be able to compete with collective reasonable brain power (a high number of random people with random agendas).
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156 Simon:
"Well quite. The idea is beyond lunacy. And what happens when one of these informal vessels shoots up another country's marque ship by error."
I suspect exactly the same thing as happened 200 - 400 years ago: a very bloody fight to the death.
Lunacy, indeed, and for so many reasons. Might just as well open a publicly subsidized "pirates academy" and award diplomas.
This happened on land as well as at sea, hence the prevalence of lawless armed bands in France throughout and after the 100 years war, in England during the War of the Roses, in the Germanies during and after the 30 years war - and now almost anywhere in the Congo, Sudan and lots of other places before and since where there are unpaid former soldiers, no formal economy to speak of, and no effective civilian government.
Which brings me to -
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171 SKV.
"Label "illegal combatants" is just a label. We can call them "bere54 friends". Legally speaking US had to put them apart from
1. "soldiers" because they didn't fought for legitimate government (Taliban was not recognized by UN).
2. "mercenaries" because it automatically make them criminals."
Not sure about that.
Mercenaries are not necessarily criminals, and the hiring of mercenaries has a very long history.
Consider: The Pope (and his predecessors) have hired mercenaries for many centuries. That's what the Swiss Guards are. The French Foreign Legion is composed entirely of mercenaries, and not necessarily with spotless resumes - that's why lots of their trucks in Algeria were full of guys singing in German, who might previously have been in Russia, or elsewhere, and might have preferred not to go home. The Gurkhas are amongst the most storied troops ever to serve. Mercenaries?
Consider firms like "Sandline (?)" or "Executive Outcomes" what business are they in? Consider all of the US "contractors" working for firms like "Blackwater" in Iraq. Are any of these groups either (a) criminals, by definition, or (b) unlawful combatants?
Neither, really.
Unlawful combatant is a different thing, and is a lot more like a pirate, a brigand, or a criminal. (or, a "highwayman", as in the poem). It occurs when there are people on a battlefield for whom there is no responsible authority.
Up until late in the 20th century, this was an extremely risky status. If the army you are fighting for is defeated, you want either to be wearing their uniform, and thereby to be entitled to such protections as may be afforded to a prisoner of war; or to be as far away as possible, preferably in your own bed under lots of covers. Why? because, in the old days, an unaffiliated fighter on the battlefield was liable to be put to death at will, with no prospect of mercy. "The old days" means different things in different places, but seems to have extended at least up to the end of the South African war in Angola, if not to the present day.
In earlier times the victorious army would round up the defeated army, would identify which of the captured enemy might bring a good ransom, sell the remaining healthy ones into slavery (or serfdom, a distinction without much of a difference), and put the rest to the sword - including any mercenaries unfortunate enough not to be able to buy their own lives.
Fellows like those at Guantanamo would have been dumped into some dungeon somewhere, and would have waited until their King ended the war and bought their freedom, or exchanged them for the other side's prisoners. But if you didn't have a king (i.e., a recognized governmental authority) to make peace on your behalf or take responsibility for your presence on the battlefield, your life expectancy was short, at best. But Osama bin Laden isn't about to come forward and sign a peace treaty, or take responsibility for his fighters. Under those circumstances, in previous eras, those unclaimed fighters would simply have been put to death, for much the same reason that you put pirates and brigands to death, essentially automatically.
Modern democracies squirm at that kind of thought. If you wring your hands over the death penalty, it will be a long time before you will be comfortable with the deliberate killing of prisoners in cold blood, "unlawful combatants" or not. Liberal democracies just don't do that. Ever.
One particularly quaint example: it seems to me that condemned pirates were wrapped, alive, in a cage of metal hasps, hung up from a beam protruding from Newgate (?) prison, and left, like suet, for the crows to eat alive. Was this not the fate of Edward Teach, a.k.a., Blackbeard?
They didn't stint on half measures in those days.
Pour mieux encourager les autres.
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The Borgen Project has good info on the estimated cost of ending global poverty:
$30 billion: Annual shortfall to end world hunger.
$550 billion: U.S. Defense budget.
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Ref 171, SKV
"mercenaries" because it automatically make them criminals."
I agree with much of what you said, but calling insurgents mercenaries and - automatically - criminals is a stretch. I doubt every fighter in Afghanistan is a member of the Taleban, and I very much doubt every member of the Taleban is a member of Al Qaeda. The Taleban may have been sympathetic, or most likely incapable of closing the Al Qaeda training camps, but there is no evidence they had a role in 9/11.
IMO, we should limit our operations in Afghanistan and Pakistan to destroying Al Qaeda. Who the Afghan people choose as their leaders is their business, not ours, and before somebody mentions 8-year old girls being forced to marry older men against their will, we don't have to visit our beloved Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan to see that, all we have to do is go to certain compounds in states like Texas and Utah to find identical situations. Admittedly, ours wear 19th century dresses instead of those offensive burqhas...
Mercenaries are fighters who hire for service typically in a foreign army for material gain and, sometimes, to satisfy a need for adventure or to carry out acts they would not be able to do in a civilized society. Insurgents are people who rise up to overthrow their government by force or to repel an invading force. Because the latter are almost invariably civilians they do not wear uniforms and do not meet the criteria used to define members of a traditional military force. Years ago we used to call them freedom fighters, resistance fighters, and guerillas. Ideology and cultural bias forced us to come up with the ridiculous term "enemy combatants" which allow us to incarcerate and torture anyone that resists or defies our presence in faraway lands, or threatens our interests.
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arc, St.D, there are really two schools of thought here. One is
Keynesian, the other conservative. According to the Keynesian approach,
capitalism is not self-correcting, and aggregate demand can collapse
indefinitely, so massive government spending is required to correct the
situation. A Keynesian would say that the deficits are bad, but they
would be even larger if government spending was not increased to provide
needed demand.
A conservative, such as myself or the ("cough, cough") Socialists
in Europe view these very large government spending packages as
inflationary, because we are not in the 1930s. We are in a far
more integrated global economy, so the increase in spending just
stimulates someone else's economy.
I would vote for cutting waste in government spending, of which
there is plenty, and retargeting that spending to areas which
would really set us on the right path - but that's not the way
things work in the real world.
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#180. At 8:17pm on 16 Apr 2009, Interestedforeigner wrote:
#182 saintDominick mercenaries" because it automatically make them criminals."
I didn't call Afghan insurgents/Taliban - "mercenaries". US
didn't want outlaw 1/2 of Pushtu tribes. So DoD called them "enemy combatant". "Mercenaries" today carries very specific legal load that make "mercenaries" automatic outlaw in most countries.
The fanny point that according to General Dustum (one of Afghan N. alliance commander): "You can assemble 10000 strong army of Pushtu tribes for $100,000 a month"
If you look again into Afghan "enemy combatants"/Taliban:
They are in reality semi-nomadic Pushtu tribes with no allegiance to any country who love to fight for money. So they fit into original definition of mercenary - "Soldier for hire".
Here I stick to official position: They are not mercenary but rather "enemy combatants".
There is huge legal gap that accommodates: Security contractors/VIP guards/French Foreign legion/Military Advisers.
I cannot tell them apart from "dogs of war".
The pure mercenaries like "Executive outcome" were ban. UN was considering using them to stop genocide in Rwanda. But African Union refused "Executive outcome"
in favor of inefficient intentional force.
The only open mercenaries force today is... French "Foreign Legion". You become Legioner "mercenary" with future french citizenship if you claim:
previous military service (nobody checks),
medically fit,
no criminal record (nobody checks - this is official !!!!),
pass tough training,
sign for 10 yrs of service (I am not sure here)
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#165
Sergey me lad,
1. Seagass, yer barnacle faced goat friend. There's never been a single pile of booty controlled by a pirate. Even for one country. I suggest meself
2. Usual spineless right wing bilge water. Invent a witless impossible example, claim it be the only way to prove yer wrong, then scream no one has the example. Yer think yerself clever but yer as clever as cutting yer toe nails with a cutlass. Ask Stumpy Joe. Even One Eyed Jake sees through that bilge rat witted piece of seaweed.
Last one up the old sea dog pays fer the grog.
Cap'n Sambeard
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ref #177
I agree about only thinking short term has been a problem.
But too many special interest groups have blocked major iniatives.
The U.S could have a major nuclear energy program up and running but too much deference are given to enviro nitwits. We could have wind and tidal power but selfishness exmplified by the Kennedys has hurt that.
One of the biggest drains are the outrageous state and federal pensions program, cut that right now for non essential state workers would be a great first step.
The waste and corruption were the reason for the protest. I don't want higher taxes to pay Barney Frank's and Chris Dodd's pensions.
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#186
YARRRRRRRRR!
Cap'n Sambeard
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Ref 186, Magic
"I don't want higher taxes to pay Barney Frank's and Chris Dodd's pensions."
We are paying for more pensions than the two you cited and while I am not in favor of tax and spend I accept the fact that government is not evil and that in many ways it provides essential services for our security and comfort. Consider this, I am paying for Ws retirement...how do you think that makes me feel?
I agree that the USA should have had an energy-efficient infrastructure in place long ago, in fact, we should have started working on it in earnest after the first oil crisis in the 70s, but I think blaming environmentalists for our failure to make the sacrifices and concessions needed to achieve that goal is an over simplification.
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Well, while Obama is releasing the memos which justified torture, he has declined to prosecute those involved- up to the top.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090416/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/torture_memos
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_spain_us_torture
Any chance we can sue Obama for false advertising or impeach him for obstruction of justice?
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My goodness
The rule on BBC journalists having to be impartial has clearly been thrown out of the window
Stop the illegal war launched by Obama!
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Ref 186, Magic
Sorry, I neglected to give you my condolences for being among the elite whose tax bracket is being raised. It must be tough for families earning over $250K to make a living. Are you sure you don't work for AIG? Are you planning to beg for alms?
I don't want to upset you more than you already are, but the rest of us, you know the invisible 95% of the population of the USA who manage to make ends meet with a fraction of what you are purportedly making, actually got a %500 tax cut; and seniors with incomes under $50K may not pay any taxes. It may not be much for some, but it sure helps those counting pennies and cutting coupons to save 25 cents.
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#165. SKV_USA: "Russia recovered from 1913-27 WWI+revolution+civli war+interventions+starvations without aid. And recovered again after WWII without aid..."
I'm not sure the Russian people, and then later, those of the USSR, would endorse that opinion. If having bread and water is recovery, then you'd be correct, but life in Eastern Europe and into Asia was far different to that in the United States. It depends on what your definition of "recovery" would be.
#184. "The only open mercenaries force today is... French "Foreign Legion"."
Surely the so-called "contractors" used by the United States were mercenaries? BlackWater Worldwide, now Xe Worldwide, may have been concerned with "security" services, but isn't that what the military is supposed to provide? Their training programmes certainly give the impression that they provide armed, extra-military, forces to anyone who can pay. I don't buy the notion that these employees were in Iraq simply to keep some areas, and people, "safe". The Iraqi government has declined to licence them to operate and had previously made numerous attempts to expel the company and its employees. It would appear that they agree with my assessment.
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ref #188
We could spend a 100 pages detailing what needs to be done and the same many to list whose pensions are outrageous.
I chose Frank and dodd because there is no one in Govt collecting a fat paycheck right now that is more responsible for the melt down than these two.
But here is where we differ I thing a streamline goverment using privitzation is better than govt expansions.
Despite the greed of wall street business are more ethical and run more efficently than any fed or state govt.
UPS or Fed Ex would do a far better job running the post office as an example.
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Justin - Seems the answer to your question is "Yes."
Obama has just authorised publication of the 'Bush/Rumsfeld/Tenet' guidelines for torture of suspects.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8003023.stm
And we won't have to listen to any more of the ridiculous "Jessica Lynch" type stories of heroism and bravery.
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#191
Ahoy St D,
Oy've been countin' me doubloons and I plundered more than that this last cruise, as did most of me crew. We've figgered folks who can't pay for their grog and rum, some sail and rope, wenches, weapons, more wenches and more rum and cough up 3 doubloons on every hundred they make over that need to be keel hauled. Coz they either pirate beyond their means, or are stinking lilly livered goat lovers who lie about their lootin' and plunderin' prowess.
We caught one of the scum sucking pox ridden sons of pigs on me poop today. The crew turned ugly. Yarr.
Cap'n Sambeard
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Ref 193, Magic
"Despite the greed of wall street business are more ethical and run more efficently than any fed or state govt"
And if anybody has any doubts about your assertion all they have to do is visit Detroit.
I have misgivings about the effectiveness of many government programs, but when it comes to ethics government officials are way above their counterparts in private industry. I suspect the reasons for the honesty that prevails among the federal government bureaucracy has more to do with the absence of profit and the ever vigilant IGs, rather than personal integrity though.
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Ref 194, Richard
The Obama administration also reassured CIA operatives and DoD personnel that they would not be prosecuted if they are charged with torturing prisoners...sorry, enemy combatants.
I wonder if this means that instead of using the Oliver North model whenever something comes to light we are actually going to go after those responsible for putting the policies in place or, as a minimum, condoning them. Is it true that Mr. Cheney is relocating to Dubai?
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Ref 195, Sam
Ahoy Captain,
As a descendent of Spaniards, with a mixture of Quixotic and Don Juan's weaknesses, I hate to admit it, but at this late stage of my long journey one wench is more than I can handle.
Aye mate, I have met one or two of those pirates in me life and recognize bravado by its odor rather than color. Have a safe trip to Tortuga, my galleon is filled with pain, cheap wine, rancid cheese and no booty. Hopefully his Majesty and the Holy See will have mercy on my soul and spare me from the pyre for my liberal transgressions.
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ref #196
There we disagree I can look at Barney Frank, Chris Dood and republican counterparts. I look at the last 3 house speakers in Mass being investigated or indited.
I'll trust a corporat head over a politician or a union thug anytime
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ref #197 Does the Obama administration feel like giving any other secreats away? Or having another report from DHS malign returning veterans.
This administration has made so many wrong move practicly and morally, It's amazing when (on Stem Cells) they actually get things right.
We told you so Obama was not qualified. when will you Obamaphiles admidt it?
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#198
Cap'n D
I'd be willing to share me booty for a slog of that there wine and a sniff of yer cheese. Pirattically that means you steals me booty and I steals yer wine. Tis a fair exchange.
So long as I can look at yer outta me good eye. Arrr.
One wench is enough so long as she be Buxom. Or Sporty. Or Wenchy
Yarr to Y'all
Cap'n Sambeard
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The Reason I have gone to BBC in the Beginning is it seemed not Weighted down by the Interests of the Corporate Holders of the U.S. Media.
U.S. Media Corps. have Interlocked Contractual Obligations and Smaller Media Outlets in the U.S. lack Investigational Resources.
Multi-Tiered levels of Liability Laws, Contracts and Obligations to Hollywood, Disallow Freedom of the Press and Disallow Real Honesty. Hollywood, Re: a Contract by Promise in Hollywood is Verbal but is Virtually Unbreakable, and Controls Billions of Dollars in Advertizement and Chains of Television Corporations.
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I hope for Free Broadcast, Internet and Print Media in the World and for Free and Unbiased Broadcasts and Print Media. I don't like to accuse you, but When I see your Statements on Bush and then Read the Article you refered to, I saw that article refer to something he had no control over, re: the story of Football Player TIllman, and the Reported Glorification at first then Recanting of the Way he Died,..
TV Networks are owned by 100 Billion Dollar Corporations also Merged with Rolls Royce, Siemens and other Jet Engine, Electronics and Electrical Corporations in Britain, and in Europe.
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#198, 202
Yarr, as head of an independent 'corporation', do yer have any money fer black powder, balls and wenchin'? That yer trust me more than folks yer can fire is touching. I'm touched. Yarr.
#199
In pirate code the Cap'n of a ship only fails after he screws up. Loses a fight, loses a treasure or 60% of his crew want to kill him. Ain't happened under the current Cap'n. Last one were no good. His Lieutenant was worse. Not worthy of the being a Pirate.
Yarr! Yarr.
Cap'n Sambeard
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184 SKV
You are mixing your terms.
There is no controversy about "enemy combatants".
"Enemy combatants" are the regular, everyday, common or garden kind.
The controversy concerns "unlawful combatants".
These are freelance killers who are accountable to no one, and the responsibility of no one, who expect all the rights and privileges of prisoners of war, without themselves been subject to any rules.
The status of "unlawful combatants" did, and does, pose a genuine problem. These are dangerous, violent, and by definition lawless, people. They should not be released by default simply because we don't know what to do with them.
We cannot condone torture, and they cannot be murdered in cold blood. But short of that they should expect to rot in prison for a very, very long time or until some recognized state is prepared to take responsibility for them and be accountable for their deeds.
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Ref #197 SaintDominick
Absolutely. CIA operatives who were given the legal assurance should not be prosecuted. Similarly, any CIA operatives who refused to carry out 'torture' orders or resigned for reasons of conscience should be offered re-employment or compensation. The guys who gave the 'legal' advice should be considering their position and should be required to justify the advice they gave - and face the consequences if their judgement was wrong.
Ha - as for tricky Dickey - whilst I'm sure he was busy winding everyone else up ("I'm right behind you on this Mr President") - I doubt there's any paper trail that leads back to him.
The release of this information is welcome in the UK. Our Government has been hiding behind "the possibility we might upset UK/USA relations if we release confidential documents regarding torture of British citizens." Thats the reason they gave to the law courts to prevent publication. Obama has just taken away their excuse - he's releasing the information himself. No hiding place now for our Ministers. It's a good day for democracy and justice - and they'll be more good days to come.
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185. Cap'n Sambeard
"1. Seagass, yer barnacle faced goat friend. There's never been a single pile of booty controlled by a pirate. Even for one country. I suggest meself."
Ye be fergettin Cap'n Kleptocrat of the Congo, President Mobutu Sese Seko of Zaire, gone to Davy Jones in the real Heart of Darkness.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJHgMD1S0bg
Starts with pirates
Sang By Sir Robert Natsa Marley
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Ref 199, Magic
"I'll trust a corporat head over a politician or a union thug anytime"
Good, you can keep the heads of AIG, CitiGroup, Bank of America, Wells Fargo, GM, Chrysler, ENRON and the rest of the gang; I'll stick with the bureaucrats. In fact, you can also keep Bernie Madoff while you are at it.
Ref 200
Don't confuse giving secrets to the enemy or competitors with releasing memos to the public, memos so bizarre that they should have never been written in the first place. Your heroes are lucky they are dealing with a man that prefers to focus on the future and has decided to let historians deal with the past. The contents of those memos have diminished our moral standing and credibility in the world and undermine everything our country stands for. Not surprisingly, Gordon Liddy, in true Nixonian style, was defending the practices outlined in them during an interview on CNN tonight.
When it comes to giving the store away, you only have to look at the technology that our patriotic and highly qualified corporate executives gave to China in recent years, after moving our factories abroad for the betterment of shareholders and to expand the scope of their golden parachutes.
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#208
Ahoy matey,
I'm thinkin of a pirate with a goal, to help the land lubbin common folk. Not a land lubbin wannabe pirate a plunderin his own crew for his own cabbin. Them pirates need keel haulin and a lick of the cat. Plus a slappin with me fists and me forehead.
Yarr
I mean a real pirate who shares his booty with his crew. Like a Cap'n Marshall. A Cap'n with a plan for all his foremast jacks. And a big bottle of rum.
Cap'n Sambeard
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199, Magic.
"I'll trust a corporat head over a politician or a union thug anytime."
I don't see any difference among them.
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"Will we now get the truth about military adventures?"
Are you testing how naive is your readership, Mr. Webb?
It is obvious that we will never get the whole truth about any of military adventures, regardless who at the moment is the president of the country. The reasons are obvious. I do not think that folks with a little common sense require any explanation in this regard.
Blatant exaggerations or lies as often produced during Bush reign seem to disappear only to be replaced ....at best by silence and at worst... by slight exagggerations and (possibly) fibs.
The recent event that ended with rescue of the captain of American cargo ship by our undoubtedly brave Seals team tells us one story, and the whole piracy activity around Somali coast that we, the world, is "unable" to effectively cut tells us another story. Neither story, as told , seems plausible and fully "digestible".
It is unimportant who takes the credit for the succesful mission. A little less luck and that mission could be unsuccessful, the captain could as well lose his life. We are happy it was not the case but we must understand that the decision taken was not in the best interest of the captain. Proven methods that did not expose to danger people in pirate custody were payments of ransoms. Now, the question is: Is the payment of a ransom desirable? Does it discourage further piracy? The answer to both is NOT. But the are methods and ways that usage of ransom money can be totally restricted and controlled - check what Hillary Clinton had to say recently on the subject. Turning back for a moment to the successful mission. Without some luck, the captain could be dead. What then? How this event would be explained to the public? There are many ways, and most would not be far from the truth because captain's captivity location was within immediate danger zone. I think the readers have enough imagination to create possible "sceneries" Captain could be killed by a wandering rescuers' bullet. It happened on other ocassions. I doubt this sort of news would circle the world.
Along the way, conflicting stories emerge as to the recovery of the ship from pirates by the brave crew. It is understood that the method of successful recovery of the ship from armed pirates by unarmed ship crew should be withheld from the public - one extra trumph card against pirates. I read a story stating that crew was let go because captain was sufficiently persuasive and offered himself in lieu of crew and the ship. Whatever the case it would be unreasonable to expect any valuable info that relates to this event to be disclosed publicly.
And yes, the piracy issue around Somali coast. You hear that around twenty thousand ships are passing yearly the area three times the size of Texas where pirate activities trive. This is used as an argument pointing to the difficulty in effectively fighting piracy originating from Somali shores! We are told, in addition, that pirates operate fast moving speed boats and are fully armed. What is wrong with this fable?
Everything. Speed boats have limited range. If speedbaots are involved they operate within mothership range. These bigger ships location is quite easy to establish. Rendering them useless is easy as well. Maintaining save distance from Somali shores - beyond speed boat range - should be no problem either. SO, WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?
Bush policy regarding Somalia was the total flap. His temporary proxy, Ethiopia, refused to defend approved by US (and UN - in this order) but
weak government that cannot sustain itself without outright foreign military support. Continuing piracy seems to be a game with the purpose. To control Somali shores means to end piracy originating from these shores. Isn't it an easy and simple plan to gain public support for a new and perhaps protracted costly conflict to control east coast of Africa and keep that territory out of Islamists hands?
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#212
Marby,
I shed a tear. It isn't the title, it's the ethics that count.
Sam
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#214
Me old matey!
Cap'n Sambeard
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#195. SamTyler1969: "We caught one of the scum sucking pox ridden sons of pigs on me poop today."
Without a hyphen between the sixth and seventh words, that reads rather differently to what, I assume, was intended. If not, then the crew, rather than turning ugly, would be waiting in line; perhaps Cap'n Sambeard's wench is named Monique?
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ref #210 And you can take Frank, Dodd, Blago, DeLay, Reid and others
and I'll take Buffett, Jobs,Gates the head of Genzyme and other biotechs,who actually produce value and services .
You can have the parasites from the govt and Unions.
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#212 Maybe the difference is in the tea party crudites - pirates serve rum and maggoty hardtack, union thugs pierogies, corporate heads swans carved in ice served in Sardegna - politicians sometimes moose stew. The world sees the US as weak in the dollar, unsuccessful at war in Af, Iraq, now Pakistan - Obama turns a little light on then Texas threatens secession and country clubs organize protests. World gone mad.
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On the bright side the US has some k*cka*ss sharpshooters
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aquarizonagal -
I hope you are reading this thread. Please come back to the kitchen. I referred that comment myself. It was better it be done, and I suspected no one else would do it so thought I'd give it a shot, even though it was my own.
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216, David -
You are right! Without the hyphen it is positively pornographic. Properly placed punctuation is so important. And gosh, just note all that alliteration!
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I go back to my comment of a few threads past -
The greatest pirate who ever lived is named George W Shrub. He has claimed, for himself and his mateys, the greatest booty ever taken, from the greatest treasure trove mankind ever assembled - the US economy in the first decade of the 21st century.
Three trillion dollars is a fair estimate - that is US $3,000,000,000 - and they gutted the storehouse, tore down the doors, set the place on fire, and tried damn hard to pull down the house as they ran laughing out the gates.
- no-bid awards for 'cleaning up' natural disasters like Katrina, with no thing to show for them
- no bid awards for folks like the good ship Haliburton in far Babylon, again with nothing to show and no accounting
- no strings and no accounting for sums of a trillion to the 'Lords of the Earth'.
For pillage and plunder they have no equal in history or legend.
Harrrr,
KScurmudgeon
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#216,221
Avast there ye filthy minded sons (& daughters) of Beren.
Don't ye be messin with me poop without permission!
Cap'n Sambeard
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Where's Ed???
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223 -
Who ya callin' filthy-minded? Yur scuppered fer lack of a hyphen, a tiny mark as valuable to the sentence as a horse was to that lubber who would have traded his kingdom for one. I'll leave the poop-messin' to ye.
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224 -
He went to bed hours ago.
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211. Cap'n Sambeard.
Them's be uncommon.
Robin Hood not Dennis Moore.
That feller with the loaves and fishes, but he wasn't one for touching booty. Hardly so - laid about him breaking the benches of the booty counters.
The other feller with the beard - Old Major I heared 'im called - resting at Highgate. Fair bit too much of a plan there, thinks I.
Lots of others likes to make theirselves cap'n fer life. There's one of them on the Spanish Main, just now, and another holed up on la reina del caraibe. But he'll be going to fiddler's green by and by.
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Saintdominick
You are right in everything, and say it so eloquently.
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214, sam.
Are your crying because I sound jaded, or because what I said is largely true? In any case don't cry - spring has sprung and that is more important than thinking about jokers we can't control.
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201, "Yarr to Y'all", since when has a proper pirate been raised
south of the Mason-Dixon line?
209, happy, I ree I of the most high!
219, freyedcat, that comes from the 2nd amendment.
222, KS, perhaps Sambeard will take these scum on board his brig
and make them tell us where they hid the booty, or walk the plank.
216, DC, perhaps the object of the sentence which you have parsed
could be found in Congress.
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Got a notice from the socieal security people today. Apparently us old geezers each get $250. I haven't been following the tax pacification, keep-the-poor-suckers-paying-the-bill-happy business so was surprised. Not thrilled you understand, just suprised.
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219, frey.
"On the bright side the US has some k*cka*ss sharpshooters."
Yes, that birghtened my day too. A war against pirates is one that I can understand.
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We in Britain all ought to be ashamed over the disclosures now coming out from America in respect of the Enhanced Interrogation Techniques employed by the CIA on prisoners captured in Iraq.
For example prisoners could be deprived of sleep for 180 hours. Prisoners could be slammed against a wall 30 times consecutively. Prisoners could be waterboarded six hours in a two hour stretch. If the prisoner got water in their throat and nose then 'an intervening physician would perform a tracheotomy.
Now the Attorney General Eric H.Holder Jr. said the Justice Department would not prosecute CIA employees, would appoint lawyers to fight legal challenges in the United States or overseas and would even pay judgments or penalties assessed against employees who followed the guidance they got from his department.
Now you might ask what has Britain and her courageous soldiers got to do with all this. Well we actually detained the prisoners which the Americans then 'tortured' with their Enhanced Interrogation Techniques, this is extra-ordinary rendition.
On the 26th February 2009 it is shown in Hansard that the new Minister of Defence John Hutton had to admit to parliament in the words 'I regret that it is now clear that inaccurate information on this particular issue (Records of Detention(Review Conclusions) has been given to the House by my department'.
The Records of Detention refers to the number of people detained by the British army in Iraq who were subsequently handed over to the Iraq and Americans for interrogation. If the Americans were doing these things to their prisoners one can only imagine what the Iraqis may have done'.
This is more important than all the latest shinanigins about arresting MPs, about expenses, about smear campaigns, this is shameful. We were part of this torture by any other name. Oh, all the above was to take place unless it caused severe pain, pain was alright, severe pain not.
I want a statement from the British Prime Minister that he regrets what the American memos disclose, they are our allies and there must be no cover up. No protection from prosecution. Nobody who knew about this should be allowed to be silent. I am sure that we knew what was being done in our name. There must be an urgent public inquiry into our invlovement in this process.
There has been enough inaccurate information coming from the Ministry of Defence, it is time to clean out the stables.
In the meantime there is an injunction taken out by the Ministry of Defence preventing him from speaking in public. The truth is out there, it will not be hidden, but somebody needs to be prosecuted, even the lawyers who gave their advice, they are the guilty ones, soldiers follow orders, sometimes like in Nazi germany they should have refused them.
I regard these actions authorised and acted upon as being war crimes. Who decides on prosecutions because if some people are now charged then we are all guilty.
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"But as soon as Minos had formed his navy, communication by sea became easier, as he colonized most of the islands, and thus expelled the evildoers [pirates]. The coast populations now began to apply themselves more closely to the acquisition of wealth, and their life became more settled; some even began to build themselves walls on the strength of their newly acquired riches. For the love of gain would reconcile the weaker to the dominion of the stronger, and the possession of capital enabled the more powerful to reduce the smaller cities to subjection."
- Thucydides, The Peloponnesian War, Book I.8, 2-4.
Also -
"And the first person known to us by tradition as having established a navy is Minos. He made himself master of what is now called the Hellenic sea, and ruled over the Cyclades, into most of which he sent the first colonies, expelling the Carians and appointing his own sons governors; and thus did his best to put down piracy in those waters, a necessary step to secure revenues for his own use.
"For in early times the Hellenes and the barbarians of the coast and islands, as communication by sea became more common, were tempted to turn pirates, under the conduct of their most powerful men; the motives being to serve their own greed and to support the needy. They would fall upon a town unprotected by walls, and consisting of a mere collection of villages, and would plunder it; indeed, this came to be the main source of their livelihood, no disgrace being yet attached to such an achievement, but even some glory." ...
"The whole of Hellas used once to carry arms, their habitations being unprotected, and their communication with each other unsafe; indeed, to wear arms was as much a part of everyday live with them as with the barbarians."
Book I.4 and I.5,1; I.6,1
- heroes and villains
KScurmudgeon
who has a good book
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in ref. to 230 about 201: Id think Captain Jean Lafitte would disagree.
As for the CIA staff being let off the hook, I completely agree with the decision; its time to move forward, enough said.
I am also intrigued by Raul Castros latest signal to the US that he is ready to talk with the US about human rights, etc...I wont hold my breath, but Id say that Cuba is more trustworthy than Iran and N. Korea.
About Hugo Chavezs recent rant against Obama-calling him ignorant, etc- is as offensive as his comments about Bush were. The man is obviously suffering from an inflated ego and is worried that his own pitiful, destructive, and coercive leadership in Venezuela will be out shinned by the new American President; this sorry excuse for a leader will no doubt be just a footnote in history that no one will read.
And sense Im on the subject of Pres. Obama, I am pleased with the announcement about the high-speed rail lines; hopefully they will actually be built; yall know how the Feds like to tease us with such things.
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#235. BienvenueEnLouisiana: "As for the CIA staff being let off the hook, I completely agree with the decision; its time to move forward, enough said."
But does it let those who wrote the advice and memoranda off the hook? They're the ones at fault. Tame lawyers have been found in other countries, providing the advice governments - and their leaders - wish to hear. Are they not to blame? Although I would not make the direct political analogy, lawyers of the Third Reich interpreted statutes favourable to their masters and employers. It seems to me that those who made the decisions should should not automatically be immune from prosecution.
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222. KScurmudgeon,
You have to be kidding. You never heard that the Democrats shared the blame for the financial crisis? Your comment is about as logical and fair-minded as the one you made back at no. 84:
Israel is a solution to a European problem imposed on an Arab neighborhood.
I guess it wasn't your intention, but this is straight out of a neo-Nazi or Palestinian propaganda pamphlet. The "Arab neighbourhood" you speak of had a Jewish population right through the millennia since the time of ancient Israel. And Jews driven from Arab countries since the 1940s now constitute about half of Israel's Jewish population. There's nothing European about them either.
Again, I don't think you intended the word "problem" to come across with all its baggage, but it has inevitable connotations of "The final solution to the Jewish problem," implemented with such devastating effect by Hitler and his henchmen. They slaughtered a third of world Jewry. The consequences of the Holocaust went way beyond a "European problem."
Now before the usual suspects start gritting their teeth and insisting that I have no right to talk about this here and should go elsewhere, let me point out the obvious: I was not the one to introduce the subject on this thread.
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216. David_Cunard,
I happened to be having a snack at the keyboard when my eye fell on that gross sentence. This Sam character should be a little more considerate and not talk like that when someone is eating. Please tell him that when you see him.
220. bere54,
You referred your own comment? Perhaps you should have referred it before you posted it. Would have saved you time.
224. middlecroony wrote:
Where's Ed???
Who cares?
Unless of course you're craving a typical dose of Ed Iglehart propaganda.
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238. At 09:39am on 17 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
216. David_Cunard,
I happened to be having a snack at the keyboard when my eye fell on that gross sentence. This Sam character should be a little more considerate and not talk like that when someone is eating. Please tell him that when you see him.
220. bere54,
You referred your own comment? Perhaps you should have referred it before you posted it. Would have saved you time.
224. middlecroony wrote:
Where's Ed???
Who cares?
Unless of course you're craving a typical dose of Ed Iglehart propaganda. "
This from someoneone who accepts all far-right Israeli propaganda unquestioningly and has problems with "dark hued" people (as compared to themsleves of course)
Incidently be interested in your views on D Barenboim. Presume you feel he should be incarcerated as a supporter of "terrorism" and his house bulldozed?
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237. At 09:30am on 17 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
222. KScurmudgeon,
You have to be kidding. You never heard that the Democrats shared the blame for the financial crisis? Your comment is about as logical and fair-minded as the one you made back at no. 84:
Israel is a solution to a European problem imposed on an Arab neighborhood.
I guess it wasn't your intention, but this is straight out of a neo-Nazi or Palestinian propaganda pamphlet. The "Arab neighbourhood" you speak of had a Jewish population right through the millennia since the time of ancient Israel. And Jews driven from Arab countries since the 1940s now constitute about half of Israel's Jewish population. There's nothing European about them either. "
This is the Likudnik view of Israeli history?
Judiasim has been present since ancient Israel. Many however converted under the Greeks, Romans Byzanionnes and moslems.
The religions changed, as did thelanguages, but the people stayed the same. As happened in the UK etc.
Isrsel is a western european colony, nothing more.
"Again, I don't think you intended the word "problem" to come across with all its baggage, but it has inevitable connotations of "The final solution to the Jewish problem," implemented with such devastating effect by Hitler and his henchmen. They slaughtered a third of world Jewry. The consequences of the Holocaust went way beyond a "European problem."
Really Wasn't it Europeans who conducted the holocaust? Nice white Europeans like yourself?
Did Hitler ask the Chinese, Palestinians etc what to do with the jewish population?
And Hitler was not "dark hued" was he, neither was Heydrich. But he did have a problem with people who were.
This goes beyond fantasy
"Now before the usual suspects start gritting their teeth and insisting that I have no right to talk about this here and should go elsewhere, let me point out the obvious: I was not the one to introduce the subject on this thread."
No but as usual your unquestioning far-right views distort the whole issue.
You might care to reflect whether it is IsraeL RSA it is the far rights addiction to racial theory that caused the proble.
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"Pirate Bay founders found guilty" - according to the BBC at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8003799.stm
Methinks Capt Sambeard had better shiver his timbers, splice his mainbrace and consult his legal advisors
'Yarr' indeed
:-)
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239. Simon21 wrote:
Nice white Europeans like yourself?
Thanks for the laugh. You can try as much as you like to needle me into a personal discussion here but I'm not falling for it, so you might as well stop banging your head against that brick wall, unless you have nothing better to do. I'm here to expose blind prejudice and historical revisionism wherever I find it. Little else comes from you, apart from the insults.
240. Simon21 wrote:
Isrsel is a western european colony, nothing more.
You can deny and revise history and fantasise as much as you want, but you can't change facts. Israeli Jews and their descendants from Arab countries, who constitute about half of Israeli Jews, would be most surprised to find that they are part of Western Europe. They'd probably find the concept quite funny.
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john-In-Dublin # 241- You beat me to the punch.
Perhaps not the pirates themselves, but I too read PirateBay has been fined for undermining the poor sales of the music industry. With a Kennedy,[ though not from that family] at the helm for the video game, music and movie big boys who are contesting the websites legality at providing a link to "sensitive material", that could be downloaded.
How many here have ever downloaded, copied etc material from a website link without querying the copyright.?
Are we all suffering an Asian "colour-blindness"- Countries in an area that suggest the term Copyright, means they have the right to copy anything.!
Who are the pirates in this world, who want to obtain something for nothing?
Just them- the Somalians suffering and having nothing better to earn a buck? Or us too?
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john-In-Dublin # 241- You beat me to the punch. Raining here so I came back inside.
Perhaps not the real pirates themselves, but I too read PirateBay has been fined for undermining the poor sales of the music industry. With a Kennedy,[ though not from that family] at the helm for the video game, music and movie big boys who are contesting the websites legality at providing a link to "sensitive material", that could be downloaded.
How many here have ever downloaded, copied etc material from a website link without querying the copyright.?
Are we all suffering an Asian "colour-blindness"- Countries in an area that suggest the term Copyright, means they have the right to copy anything.!
Who are the pirates in this world, who want to obtain something for nothing?
Just them- the Somalians suffering and having nothing better to earn a buck? Or us too?
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242. At 10:55am on 17 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
239. Simon21 wrote:
Nice white Europeans like yourself?
Thanks for the laugh. You can try as much as you like to needle me into a personal discussion here but I'm not falling for it, so you might as well stop banging your head against that brick wall, unless you have nothing better to do. I'm here to expose blind prejudice and historical revisionism wherever I find it. Little else comes from you, apart from the insults."
Not an insult just a fact.
Or are you denying that the architects and executors of the Holocaust(as Primo Levy says an incoorect and blasphemous term) were not snow white Europeans.
You can't actually deal with facts can you?
Tough it doesn't alter them. The killers of the european jews (gypsies, disabled) were Europeans.
Nice white christian Europeans. Not Palestinians, not South African Blacks, not Indo Malays, not Egyptian moslems. Indisputable fact.
It pays to reflect on that fact when pompously declaiming on the savagery of others.
"240. Simon21 wrote:
Israel is a western european colony, nothing more.
"You can deny and revise history and fantasise as much as you want, but you can't change facts. Israeli Jews and their descendants from Arab countries, who constitute about half of Israeli Jews, would be most surprised to find that they are part of Western Europe. They'd probably find the concept quite funny."
Theodore Herzl did not come from an arab country neither did the early Zionists. They would have been outraged at the idea. Golda meir despised the very idea of being considered connected with orientals as would Mr Sharon's parents.
Oh and a reading of the isreli census proves your fact about Israel's population to be a simple error.
Before talking about facts it is as well to know them.
There are plently of histories of Zionism and even histories of Israel.
Suggest you read them and not the Likud pamphlets put out by Mr Lieberman and his friends, which you seem to use.
Lieberman, is that an Iranian, Morroccan name?
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Apologies- Double posting I believe!
Raining and the power fell out during posting.
Excuses.
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KScurmudgeon
who has a good book,
And a good Neighbour
;-)
Check out Stan Lombardo. (scroll down) And say Hello.
Salaam, etc.
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This arguement is ridiculous. Israel and Palestine are both part of the problem, neither are 100% right or 100% wrong. There are no absolutes to it. Anyone that tries to argue differently is a fool. It's a very murky, grey area, and if they would both sit down and think about things for more than a split second maybe they would realize the utter stupidty of their situation, rather than just killing each other. I'm bored of it, and God knows what the civilians there must be putting up with. But in a sense they have bought it on themselves given the governments both have voted for.
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245. Simon21,
So having lost the debate you are now jumping all over the place? Ashkenazi discrimination against Sephardic Jews has nothing to do with the point we were discussing, which is that it is complete rubbish to regard Israel as a "Western European colony." Neither has fiddling around with the census anything to do with the discussion.
And do try to revise your copy and paste method of communication. I'm not prepared to keep on rereading my own comments to try to get to your distortions and denials of history. I know what I've just written and I can see it a few comments up the page if I need to refer to it. Now I've wasted enough time here.
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"248. At 11:50am on 17 Apr 2009, SaintOne wrote:
This arguement is ridiculous. Israel and Palestine are both part of the problem, neither are 100% right or 100% wrong. There are no absolutes to it. Anyone that tries to argue differently is a fool. It's a very murky, grey area, and if they would both sit down and think about things for more than a split second maybe they would realize the utter stupidty of their situation, rather than just killing each other. I'm bored of it, and God knows what the civilians there must be putting up with. But in a sense they have bought it on themselves given the governments both have voted for. "
Unfortunately this assumes that both sides are equally responisble. They aren't. Israel is occupying the Palestinians, xo controls ever aspects of their lives in the iontersts of spurious ethnic and racial theories.
And instead of conndemning this and solving the problem it suits the Western powers to appease this occupation and provide the weapons and money to allow it to continue.
If there a was a real desire to solve this problem it could be done practically overnight.
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ref #233
Poor little terrorists someone put a catepillar in his cell. I'm glad someone has told that rouge judge in Spain to back down.
When will Amnesty Internation go after real human rights violators even if there aren't from a Western Democracy or Israel?
Answer: never!
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248. SaintOne,
I have some appreciation of your point of view, but I don't buy the moral equivalence. The Israelis have made plenty of painful compromises over the years while the Arabs have made none. By none, I mean not one, ever. The reason is simple: they are obsessed with the complete destruction of Israel. Look at the Hamas Charter. Until that changes, prospects for peace are grim indeed.
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#250
The fact is they have been at it for so long they are both as bad as each other. No point in the "he started it" arguement anymore. They have both committed too many crimes for it to matter about that anymore
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#251
Your missing the point. If you torture someone your becoming what you stand against. Might as well rise above it. Your taken the humanity and moral high ground away when you start involving in things like that.
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#252
The problem is that Hamas doesn't represent everyone in Palestine. It's best to keep the two seperate where possible. You can't be Hamas without being Palestinian, but you can be Palestinian without being Hamas. I'm positive there are many Israelis and Palestinians that want to live in harmony, but the longer it goes on, the more rockets are fired and bombs are dropped, the more hostile they will get towards each other.
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249. At 12:06pm on 17 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
245. Simon21,
So having lost the debate you are now jumping all over the place?"
Were you debating, I thought you were just howling at being reminded it was people of your colour and cultural affinity that ran the holocaust.
I am still waiting for you to debate the point.
" Ashkenazi discrimination against Sephardic Jews has nothing to do with the point we were discussing, which is that it is complete rubbish to regard Israel as a "Western European colony." Neither has fiddling around with the census anything to do with the discussion."
If you read before replying you would have seen I made no reference to Ashkenazi and Sephardicdistinctions. However I made the point that Theodore Herzl, Golda Meir, Begin, Ben Gurion were nice white europeans full of anti-semetic, anioriental european views.
Again if you know otherwise, demonstrate it. Other wise you have conceded the point.
Is there an arguement in this? Are you denyting that Israel was a zionist project and the Zionists hailed (largely) from Russia whihc had a long tradition of anit-semetism whic the new settlers carried into the colony.
Simple question are you denying the fact?
And do try to revise your copy and paste method of communication. I'm not prepared to keep on rereading my own comments to try to get to your distortions and denials of history. I know what I've just written and I can see it a few comments up the page if I need to refer to it. Now I've wasted enough time here.
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I think it is time to leave behind arguments such as who fired the first shot, and which terrorists are acceptable and which are not, and focus instead on ways to solve what is, ostensibly, one of the greatest tragedies in modern history. What is desperately needed at this point is leadership, vision, compassion, equanimity, and the ability to impress on both sides of this conflict the need to treat each other as human beings with similar problems, needs, and aspirations.
The blame game is a tactic used by those interested in perpetuating a problem that should have been solved decades ago.
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ref #254
No I am just saying the violations are so minor if there are any, but it is magnified out of proportion
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@177 (StD): You are correct, that self-discipline (in finance, as well as other areas) seems to be lacking. Nonetheless, we have to try. It would have helped an awful lot if the folks who put togther the rescue plans, and the stimulus plan, had been a lot more tightly focused on doing only that which absolutely had to be done. Now, I fear, the Congress is used to tossing around hundreds of billions of dollars in exceptional spending, and likes the sense of accomplishment it gives them. This will incent them to do this over and over again, thereby hastening our rush to complete financial destruction. I hope like crazy I'm wrong, but based on past performance, I suspect I'm right.
@178 (Marko): A good place to start looking at words, in my opinion, is to remember to separate issues into their smallest components, and never ever smear issues together or make generalizations, particularly about groups of people. Lumping individuals into groups is a great way to set the stage to dehumanize them, and that almost inevitably follows. Finally, using words as weapons feels good in the short term, but ultimately never helps either you or the person(s) you are directing them at. It only hurts both of you.
It's often hard for me to do business this way, but I can clearly see the problems that occur if I don't, and I don't need those problems in my life (I have plenty already, just like everyone else...why add to them?).
@183 (Guns): Part of the problem with the spending is that one person's waste is another persons cherished program. If Congress were required to balance the budget, eventually some priorities would reassert themselves. The Founders, of course, never envisioned that either the Congress or the country would tolerate deficit spending year after year.
Regards to all.
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With regard to the Top secret memos relating to 'torture' please note that three of them are dated May 2005. Now then May 2005 was after the events took place. These are retrospective to the events which took place. accordingly, the CIA agents did not know that they were going to be able to plead that they had legal authorisation for their activities. It is like the Nazis in Germany murdering 6 million Jews and then in June 1945 German lawyers saying that the laws, which we have just changed, mean that the Nazi war criminals could not face prosecution because the lawyers have said it was alright.
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#258
I think thats a bit naive
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Facts:
1. Israel is a colonial enterprise - a re-colonisation, in some views, but a colonisation with the resulting displacement and dispossession of an existing native population, none the less.
2. The UN Partition plan (res 181 - scroll up for voting) was endorsed by no UN member from the entire region, but obtained a majority on the basis of "Western" and client members.
3. This "solution" was never implemented, due to the war of 1948, in which Israel pre-emptively seized some 40% more territory than proposed under 181.
4. In 1967, Israel (again pre-emptively) seized the remainder of Palestine and parts of Syria, Egypt and Lebanon, some of which have been returned.
5. Israel remains in occupation of all of Palestine (except for Gaza, which she only holds besieged and blockaded) in outright defiance of numerous UN resolutions.
6 This very day, New houses are being built in the occupied territories in direct contravention to international law and justice.
7. Since 2000, Israeli "Defence" forces have killed eight times as many minor children as have Palestinian "terrorists" (this number is subject to revision upwards as a result of the recent slaughter in Gaza)
8. There is little doubt which is the rogue state in this situation.
How would we feel if it happened to us?
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
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#225
Yarr me saucy beauty,
Yer've a mind like me cable tier hold, and an attitude ter match.
How'd yer like to be one of me crew?
Cap'n Sambeard
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255. SaintOne wrote:
#252
The problem is that Hamas doesn't represent everyone in Palestine.
True, but Fatah succumbed to Hamas in a very short time in Gaza and the same could well happen in the West Bank. Then you have Islamic Jihad, a small terror group but the most radical of all. Polls undertaken by the Palestinians themselves show a majority support for terror against Israeli civilians, although it is possible that the results can be skewed because of fear of the oppressive leadership.
The situation is further complicated by the Iranian drive to destroy Israel by means of Hezbollah and the Palestinian terror groups. Have a look at the recent attempt by Hezbollah to foster terror in Egypt - which Iran sees as standing in the way of its ambitions in the region.
Yes, peace would be wonderful, but it wont come about through Israel granting every Palestinian demand. Why should Israel be expected to facilitate the creation of a Palestinian state that would bring the terrorist regime of Iran to Israel's borders in a matter of days?
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237. At 09:30am on 17 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
222. KScurmudgeon,
You have to be kidding. You never heard that the Democrats shared the blame for the financial crisis?
reply - Of course they do, but I originally came into these discussions declaring that I am a life-long Republican who was once devoted Bush - Cheney supporter, who finally became disgusted by their abandonment of both conservative and Republican values. As far as I am concerned, the trashing of national interests for the sake of naked greed does not represent conservative, or Republican values. At that point last fall I became desperate for a change. Bush-Cheney gave away the farm to their pocket interests - hence the pirate reference. The Dems just gathered round the pork barrel, as is also the custom among pirates.
I am angry first, fair-minded as an afterthought.
then, Your comment is about as logical and fair-minded as the one you made back at no. 84:
Israel is a solution to a European problem imposed on an Arab neighborhood.
reply - You guess at my meaning in context, but I think you are reacting to your own agenda and not to mine, rather as I had done above. I mentioned Israel only as another example of great powers meddling in affairs outside their own neighborhood. I see now that 'solution' in connection with 'Israel' strikes emotional chords for some - I intended no reference to the holocaust at all. You have done that on your own.
If you are referring to the ancient antisemitism in Europe, I think that two facts will show that 'removing the Jews' was not the object in establishing Israel - first, the 'solution' met with the broad approval, not to say the giddy joy of the world's Jews, and second, since WWII Jews in Europe are generally treated with respect and acceptance, if only from shame at what had happened.
Of course there have always been Jews in Palestine - but their small numbers were scarcely an excuse for the creation of an alien (European, not near-eastern in character) state of some millions.
KScurmudgeon
circumspect radical
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#251
Shiver me timbers! Mind numbing ignorance.
Yer Spanish judge ruled on law, wasn't told to do anything.
Me Amnesty pirates go after Zimbabwe, Iran, Nepal, Saudi Arabia, Moldovia and Azerbaijan today on their front page. Been a doin it fer years
Who watches the Watchmen?
Me feisty Beauty, Cap'n Irene Khan and her saucy crew on the good ship Amnesty.
YARRRR!
Cap'n Sambeard
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247. At 11:48am on 17 Apr 2009, Hesiodos wrote:
KScurmudgeon
who has a good book, And a good Neighbour
;-)
Check out Stan Lombardo . (scroll down) And say Hello.
Hesiod is food for the soul - thank you
My brother is a perennial student (decades, now) at KU, and knows Dr. Lombardo well. He brought me a copy of his Illiad when it was new - all excited to share the treasure.
KScurmudgeon
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Still no blog on the CIA torture story?
Expectations were so high for Obama, he was bound to disappoint. But I didn't think he'd do it quite so soon. However, I am deeply disappointed that Obama seems to think that "I vas only obeying orders" is a legitimate defence for those who torture.
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#264
Re Iran, relations between them and the US have started moving forward after years of break downs. Obviously there is a long way to go, but we can hope a more common ground can be established.
You make good points, but what you have to remember is that by creating Israel as it is today, people were displaced and lost their homes, as well as the expansion going further than previously agreed. Hesiodos explains these points a lot better than myself.
I'm not going to get into the argument as to whether they were right in doing so, because the point of this is not what you or I think. It's that countries such as Iran and Syria took this as a fairly provocative move, as well as the inhabitants that lost their homes due to the formation of Israel. It made a lot of people angry, and I don't think you can fault them for that.
And I think Palestine should have it's own state. It is hypocritical for Israel to become one, at the loss of others, and then not allow those that were displaced to form their own state.
Obviously there needs to be a compromise, with both Israel and Palestine meeting various commitments. I also think an international organization should oversee/police it. It would have to include Egypt, and I think other middle-eastern countries, so that it could not be observed by some of the Muslim community as a strictly Western involvement.
Finally, I think we can both agree that terrorism against ANY civilian/country is wrong. Hamas firing rockets into Israel is horrible, and it is rightly condemned. Similarly, I think Israel have made some silly choices, including the attack on Gaza earlier this year. Hamas use human shields, and will continue to operate - A full scale military invasion into a civilian population is foolhardy. It didn't work and I can only imagine that it turned more and more civilians towards the likes of Hamas.
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263, Sam -
Sorry. This wench suffers from seasickness. And would be willing to suffer it only for the likes of Cap'n Jack Sparrow.
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265. KScurmudgeon wrote:
That's a refreshing comment, thanks. I enjoyed this:
I am angry first, fair-minded as an afterthought.
(Someone once told me when he throws things in anger he tries to make sure it's nothing expensive.)
If you read my comment closely, you'll see I gave you the benefit of the doubt re allusions to the Holocaust. I was aware you were most probably using the "problem" of Israel as one example among many and not intending any reference to the "final solution." We can be too sensitive about words.
But I take issue with your rather flippant attitude to Israel's right to re-establish herself in her ancient homeland. There is no people on earth who deserve that homeland more than the Jews. No one fought for it, died for it, maintained communities in it and retained a connection to it through the millennia as did the Jews. Not even close.
The problem with regarding Israel as an alien European imposition on the area is that it ignores all these factors, including the fact that Jewish communities in the Holy Land were at times large and thriving - even in places, funnily enough, like Gaza. And let's not forget that the country that was mandated to "impose" the Jewish state on the land in fact did everything it could to strangle the nascent state while empowering the Arabs. Britain's siding with the Arabs, even going so far as to arm them and send British officers to fight on the Arab side during Israel's War of Independence, was in line with British ambitions in the region. If you want to argue colonialism I could argue that the Jews resisted British colonialism in establishing Israel.
No, I wasn't referring to "the ancient antisemitism in Europe." I'm not sure what point you are making in that paragraph.
I'm don't know why the European Jew trumps the near-Eastern Jew in the mix that is Israel in your view. Visit the place and I very much doubt that you will get the feeling that you are in Europe.
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268. At 2:58pm on 17 Apr 2009, DisgustedOfMitcham2 wrote:
Still no blog on the CIA torture story?
Expectations were so high for Obama, he was bound to disappoint. But I didn't think he'd do it quite so soon. However, I am deeply disappointed that Obama seems to think that "I vas only obeying orders" is a legitimate defence for those who torture."
There is more to this then this decision. Who are the people who carried out the torture?
What effect did nearly choking a human being have on them?
Did they have specialists like the NKVD? What are these people doing now? Do they have children families etc?
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Ref 268, Disgusted
"I am deeply disappointed that Obama seems to think that "I vas only obeying orders" is a legitimate defence for those who torture."
What is the sense of trying the lower echelon who did, indeed, follow orders while the ones that gave the orders enjoy the comfort of their villas and lavish lifestyle?
There are very few positive things I can say about the Bush Admnistration (his efforts to fight disease in Africa is one of them), but what is the point of dividing our nation more than it already is? Trying Bush or Cheney for crimes against humanity will be such an unprecedented and divisive move that it could very well result in civil unrest, secession, anarchy and a complete loss of confidence in government.
Considering the severity and scope of the economic and fiscal problems we have, and the problems we still have abroad, the last thing we need is to see a former U.S. President being tried for reprehensible acts. Their conscience, if they have any, will be their prosecutor, judge and executioner.
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262. Ed Iglehart/Hesiodos,
Rather than pump out the usual mess of propaganda, lies and half-truths designed to delegitimise Israel, why not make the case for a Palestinian state? You could begin prior to '67 with the fact that during the decades of occupation of Gaza by Egypt, and Judea and Samaria (West Bank) by Jordan, no Palestinian stood up and told the Egyptians and the Jordanians that they wanted a Palestinian state. There was apparently no national identity and no longing for this state.
Work from there and build your case. Be interesting to see the results.
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264. At 2:39pm on 17 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
255. SaintOne wrote:
#252
The problem is that Hamas doesn't represent everyone in Palestine.
True, but Fatah succumbed to Hamas in a very short time in Gaza and the same could well happen in the West Bank. Then you have Islamic Jihad, a small terror group but the most radical of all. Polls undertaken by the Palestinians themselves show a majority support for terror against Israeli civilians, although it is possible that the results can be skewed because of fear of the oppressive leadership."
The polls shuold of course show the Palestininas loving the Israelies and grateful to them for killing their children.
I beleive a poll taken in the Serb run camps in Bosnia sghowed that the imprisoned Bosnians were not keen on the Serbs.
Amazingly if one were to take a poll in Tibet I fear the Chinese colonists would not be popular.
This poster must be only man in history who cannot understand why slaves do not love their masters.
"The situation is further complicated by the Iranian drive to destroy Israel by means of Hezbollah and the Palestinian terror groups. Have a look at the recent attempt by Hezbollah to foster terror in Egypt - which Iran sees as standing in the way of its ambitions in the region."
So the logic is what? Launching pogroms against the Palestinians is justified by the attitude of Iran?
Of all the specious justifications for atrocities and land stealing this is about the weakest.
"Yes, peace would be wonderful, but it wont come about through Israel granting every Palestinian demand. Why should Israel be expected to facilitate the creation of a Palestinian state that would bring the terrorist regime of Iran to Israel's borders in a matter of days? "
So the Palestinins are Iranians now? When did they all become ShiaS
As a half witted attempted jusdtification of one the worst oppressions of the late 20th v century this is feeble.
Hamas , Hezbollah, Iran are all irrelevant.
No matter who the Palestinians elected or what they did the Israeli elite would not accept them
Before Hamas even existed (Israel has admitted helping set it up incidently as an alternative to the PLO, another failed idea)Israel stole Palestinain land, and shot Palestinian civilians on a regular basis.
The Sabra and Shaitlla massacres took place long before any Hamas.
No country interested in peace would elect a neo-fascist as its foriegn minister, much Netanyahu as PM, a man who does not beleive the Palestinians even exist.
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269. At 3:24pm on 17 Apr 2009, SaintOne wrote:
#264
"And I think Palestine should have it's own state. It is hypocritical for Israel to become one, at the loss of others, and then not allow those that were displaced to form their own state. "
Israel will never allow a Paestinian state. Dov Weisglass stated this clearly, he a said openly Israel was only negotiating to buy time, Netanyahu is also against the idea.
And if one was created who would protect it?
The next time a bunch of Zionist religious neurotics decided to steal some territory froma palestinian village, who would prevent them? Not the US, not Europe and if the Palestinians attmepted to do so it would be called terrorism.
The idea is a non starter.
There will be no peace until Israel and its far-right appeasers drop the 19th century racial theory garbage and accpet everyone who lives in this region as a full citizen, whether they be jewish, black, moslem, bahai.
This is what civilised countries do.
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262. At 1:51pm on 17 Apr 2009, Hesiodos wrote:
How would we feel if it happened to us?
Ah you miss the point.
We are nice and white as are the elite Israelies and therefore have rights.
As for the Palestinians - they's nothing but a bunch of a-rabs, who pays no respect to thier betters.
I ho[pe this makes the situation clear.
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270. At 3:37pm on 17 Apr 2009, bere54 wrote:
263, Sam -
Sorry. This wench suffers from seasickness. And would be willing to suffer it only for the likes of Cap'n Jack Sparrow."
But not captain Pugwash?
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#278
Don't forget Major Feeler too!
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TT,
- "The problem with regarding Israel as an alien European imposition on the area is that it ignores all these factors, including the fact that Jewish communities in the Holy Land were at times large and thriving - even in places, funnily enough, like Gaza."
The problem with this analysis is that it ignores the solid fact that for at least 1000 years, no matter how "large and thriving" the Jewish community in Palestine may have been, it remained a relatively tiny minority. It was well under 10% in 1900, and, by 1946/7 had only grown to one third of the population of Palestine.This provides no more basis for dispossession, dominance and Apartheid than did the status of the White minority in South Africa. If the British were indeed favouring the Arabs, which I doubt, they were looking after the interests of the majority.
P.S. Robert Fisk on the BBC
- "The BBC Trust's report on Jeremy Bowen's dispatches from the Middle East is pusillanimous, cowardly, outrageous, factually wrong and ethically dishonest.
Related articlesBut I am mincing my words.
The trust – how I love that word which so dishonours everything about the BBC – has collapsed, in the most shameful way, against the usual Israeli lobbyists who have claimed – against all the facts – that Bowen was wrong to tell the truth."
* Bowen 'breached rules on impartiality'
* Leading article: Bad judgement
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
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274. At 4:00pm on 17 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
262. Ed Iglehart/Hesiodos,
Rather than pump out the usual mess of propaganda, lies and half-truths designed to delegitimise Israel, why not make the case for a Palestinian state? You could begin prior to '67 with the fact that during the decades of occupation of Gaza by Egypt, and Judea and Samaria (West Bank) by Jordan, no Palestinian stood up and told the Egyptians and the Jordanians that they wanted a Palestinian state. There was apparently no national identity and no longing for this state."
Is that so. You have just made yourself a fool of yourself again. Not heard of the Palestinian revolt?
Very odd I had a relative in Imperial Palestinian Police who swore he was caught up in it.
But according to you this dod not take place.
I presume the overthrow of the Turks in this region during which Allenby promised the inhabitants independence also didn't ahppen?
But your point is an interesting one often made by Israeli appeaseers. I take it the fact that the Poles et al did not tell Stalin to get lost means they should not be independent?
I wouldn't tell that top a pole, Czech, Moldavian Ukrainian, etc etc.
They mgiht try phyical means to improve your intelligence
.
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TT,
- "Rather than pump out the usual mess of propaganda, lies and half-truths..."
Please feel free to identify any lies or half-truthsComplain about this comment
271. At 3:43pm on 17 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
But I take issue with your rather flippant attitude to Israel's right to re-establish herself in her ancient homeland. There is no people on earth who deserve that homeland more than the Jews. No one fought for it, died for it, maintained communities in it and retained a connection to it through the millennia as did the Jews. Not even close.
Aha - so you are a supporter. I am too, although for reasons that are quite unacceptable in this company.
Frankly, I have not been to Israel, and know only American Jews of European ancestry. Hence my incomplete understanding. thank you
KScurmudgeon
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269. SaintOne,
If you follow what Ed Iglehart has to say on the Israel-Arab conflict you'll only be misled. Your Iglehart is a propagandist, intent on demonising Israel. What else could he be since he doesn't believe Israel should have been created in the first place? He wont say anything about the land the early Jewish settlers purchased, unless it is to minimise the importance of that fact or land that was not owned by anyone but fell under the Mandate or marshland not wanted by anyone and that the Jews reclaimed. And especially he wont say anything about the Arabs who left the nascent state because they were convinced by their leaders that they could return and claim all the land "once the Jews had been driven into the sea."
There was a war on and yes, Arabs were displaced (I say Arabs because they were not calling themselves Palestinians then) but many remained. They and their descendants now constitute some 1,3 million Israeli Arabs. This highlights the lie that the progandists like to perpetuate - that there was wholesale expulsion. There wasn't.
It's that countries such as Iran and Syria took this as a fairly provocative move...
This is the crux of the matter. Iran and the majority of other Muslim nations simply will not accept the existence of a Jewish state on land where Islam once held sway. And while people have been batting this argument back and forth on blogs like a ping pong ball for the past few years, events have been moving swiftly and have overtaken us. This is no longer simply a question of the resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I think in truth it was always bigger than that.
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Right now the major threat to the elections in India, at least as the press tells it, comes from Maoist forces who intend to disrupt and prevent the people expressing their will.
This happens in other parts of the world, as well, and is roundly condemned by 'free' people.
Where do Hamas and Hezbollah stand on free elections? Where does Israel stand?
Kscurmudgeon
sorting the sand
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TT,
- "He wont say anything about the land the early Jewish settlers purchased,"
By 1945, less than 7% of the land in Palestine was under Jewish qonership, although this amounted to around 12% of the "cultivable" land.- "There was a war on and yes, Arabs were displaced (I say Arabs because they were not calling themselves Palestinians then) but many remained. They and their descendants now constitute some 1,3 million Israeli Arabs. This highlights the lie that the progandists like to perpetuate - that there was wholesale expulsion. There wasn't."
So all those refugees didn't exist, and all those villages weren't destroyed?Pull the other one.
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"217. At 02:44am on 17 Apr 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #210 And you can take Frank, Dodd, Blago, DeLay, Reid and others
and I'll take Buffett, Jobs,Gates the head of Genzyme and other biotechs,who actually produce value and services .
You can have the parasites from the govt and Unions
------------------------------------
Gherky just to point out that Warren was a strong supporter of Obama and disagrees with most you ever say here.
Billy boy Gates thaks to Malinda , is trying his little bit to try to bring peace and less ignorance ,and also seemed to be leaning in the Obama direction.
And them Biotechs. are they the ones trying to stop organic farmers competing .
trying to put small time farmers to the torch as they claim they are the future.
The next biggest disaster in Mans silly quest to undo everything Nature made in order to show it who's boss.
Jobby wobby helping all them left leaning pincko mac users is not a typical republican follower.
So what you are saying Gherkin , is , If you invest in companies make sure the leaders are left leaning other wise they will fail, produce nothing of value and rip us all off.
Well in that case I agree.
(And yes I made up what he was saying there. it seems the way things are done here in the USA.)
But that is what the post by Gherkin amounted to.
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283. KScurmudgeon,
Unacceptable in this company?
Who cares about this company. The Israel-bashing crowd doesn't have a monopoly over this blog or any special rights here. This is not their private club.
(But I must admit I'm scratching my head over your response.)
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Curmudgeon,
- "Where do Hamas and Hezbollah stand on free elections? Where does Israel stand?"
Hamas won the free elections (validated by international observers) but Israel (and the "West") refused to accept the result. Israel promptly jailed as many of the elected representatives as she could get her hands on.What more do you need to know? Israel's idea of an acceptable Palestinian State:
- "The character of the provisional Palestinian state will be determined through negotiations between the Palestinian Authority and Israel. The provisional state will have provisional borders and certain aspects of sovereignty, be fully demilitarized with no military forces, but only with police and internal security forces of limited scope and armaments, be without the authority to undertake defense alliances or military cooperation, and Israeli control over the entry and exit of all persons and cargo, as well as of its air space and electromagnetic spectrum."
Meanwhile, Israel remains armed to the teeth and the largest recipient of US foreign aid....Complain about this comment
Why does almost every one of these blogs have to end up talking about Israel/Palestine? I swear, yall are obsessed. I cant moderate yall for not sticking to the topic because its not within my power and it would be hypocritical of me to complain to the mods, but I can beg for yall to stop the illegal torturing of other bloggers with this never ending, stale topic. If yall must, go blog about this on the Middle Eastern or South Asian editors blogs; theyd be much more relevant for everyday discussion there.
Id rather discuss the OAS summit and the CIA issue. Or how about we discuss the passage of House Resolution 1388-the Generations Invigorating Volunteerism and Education Act-which calls for the creation of a "reasonable mandatory service requirement for all able-bodied young people",in other words, a $6 billion National Civilian Security Force of middle school, high school, and college student volunteers who will be legally forced to complete 50-100 hrs of unpaid community service every year or have their graduation diplomas withheld; it also comes with a, as of yet undesigned, uniform-Im not making this up.
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282. Ed Iglehart/Hesiodos,
We've been through it all before. I couldn't be bothered to sift through your repetitive propaganda right now, but I'll pick up on two points I've dealt with before.
Half-truth:
...by 1946/7 had only grown to one third of the population of Palestine.
Fact:
The Jewish population was already a majority in the area of Palestine that was set aside for the nascent state of Israel.
Lie:
The Jews raped Arab women at Deir Yassin.
Fact:
That is an outrageous lie.
(I'll find the reference to that sly propaganda of yours if you want.)
How are you coming on with your Palestinian state?
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288. At 5:36pm on 17 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
283. KScurmudgeon, Unacceptable in this company?
Who cares about this company. The Israel-bashing crowd doesn't have a monopoly over this blog or any special rights here. This is not their private club.
(But I must admit I'm scratching my head over your response.)
My reasons are Biblical - anathema to this crowd for the most part. Yes, I can also be described as a Bible-thumping, faith filled irrational. Working as a scientist/engineer.
It's not the Israel bashers, it's the godless who have no tolerance for diversity of opinion .....
KScurmudgeon
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TT,
- "Fact:
Fact: a 55% majority in a gerrymandered partition, which was only achievable by creating an isolated Arab enclave in Jaffa.The Jewish population was already a majority in the area of Palestine that was set aside for the nascent state of Israel."
As to your further slanders, they are unworthy of reply.
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289. Ed Iglehart/Hesiodos,
Slow down. Yes the elections were apparently free and fair but Hamas won only in Gaza, not overall in Palestine.
If you want Hamas to prevail in Palestine then there isn't too much to debate. It's pretty clear what kind of state Hamas would establish - a fundamentalist Islamic state with the top boy in complete and utter control, devotees of other religions reduced to quaking dhimmi status and the people living in fear of their overlords.
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289. At 5:38pm on 17 Apr 2009, Hesiodos wrote:
Hamas won the free elections (validated by international observers) but Israel (and the "West") refused to accept the result. Israel promptly jailed as many of the elected representatives as she could get her hands on.
Yes, I am aware that Hamas won that election, and was disappointed that they were not recognized - and expected to behave - like the leaders of a nation among the free nations of the world.
Will they hold another free and fair election, in which their right to govern is submitted to the popular will?
I am not holding Israel guiltless, but at least their elections are regular and the outcomes are not foregone. Their peculiar position and difficulty is that they are determined to remain a Jewish state. Many European states now feel threatened in their very essence by immigrants who will change their composition and culture forever. But that is the way of history, in Europe and everywhere. Some neighborhoods here in America are difficult places for strangers.
But in my mind Israel is a very special case. I am prejudiced, biased in their regard more even than I am patriotic toward my own country. It is not a matter of calculation on my part. Oddly, this gives me a sense of sympathy with the Islamists. I do not feel that reason will sort this affair out, although I do believe that compassion can.
KScurmudgeon
not at all confused
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292. KScurmudgeon,
My goodness, it's good to meet you. Someone who truly worships God is one for whom I will always have respect.
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They say that the truth is the 1st casualty of war. With the Bush administration and the Iraq War, the truth was murdered before the invasion began. Here's hoping that there will be more transparency with President Obama as Commander-in-Chief (it would be unrealistic to expect he military to tell us everything they do).
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293. Ed Ingehart/Hesiodos,
So I see your figure of Jews representing only one-third of the population of 1946/7 Palestine has swiftly vanished and become a "gerrymandered" 55%. How convenient.
Slander? I could never compete with you. I'll take it then that you don't want me to look up the reference to you lying about the Jews raping Arab women at Deir Yassin.
Feel free not to respond. Do you imagine that I'm enjoying this?
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#270
Yarrr. And there was I looking forwards to a Jolly Rogering. Yer've got a fine poop deck there me beauty, yer sure ya would nay like a good swabbing? Me hook, five different attachments with variable speeds.
Blow me down. Yer sure yer won't come aboard me ship and look at me masthead, cos yer exactly the tasty kind of wench oy've been keepin me eye out for.
Cap'n Sambeard
P.S. Justin for the love of God and all that is good and Holy please start another thread.
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True Too wrote: "You could begin prior to '67 with the fact that during the decades of occupation of Gaza by Egypt, and Judea and Samaria (West Bank) by Jordan, no Palestinian stood up and told the Egyptians and the Jordanians that they wanted a Palestinian state. There was apparently no national identity and no longing for this state.
Work from there and build your case. Be interesting to see the results."
I would suggest you have a look at the work of, to cite a prominent exapmple, the historian James Gelvin, who argues the rise in Palestinian nationalism began in the inter-war years as a direct result of the rise of Zionist immigration.
And I'll tell you what, the idea that Israel is biblically justified has its direct counterpart in the logic of Islamists, who believe that Koran "gives" them the "right" to "ownership" of absurdly distorted and impossible territories. Not the kind of company I would wish to keep.
But that's because I don't believe God is going to sort all this out for us. That is the burden of the human race.
Yours,
Pinko
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re: 290 Bienvenue "Why does almost every one of these blogs have to end up talking about Israel/Palestine?"
It's the central dilemma of our time. Political, economic, religious, moral, ethical, legal, etc., dimensions all wrapped up in a knot of Gordian proportions.
It would seem that until we can sort it out, all roads will inexorably lead to Jerusalem.
Now, as St. D. pointed out, arguing about the past seems only to lead to more entanglements. Finding a way forward requires, I think, more a willingness to forgive and forget than it does an Alexandrian stroke.
Anyway, some light does occasionally arise from all this smoke and noise . . .
Yours,
Pinko
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truely a pile of lies. and kurmudgeon. sad and pathetic.
Godless.
have you read the racist crap from your buddy.
oh no not racist to say I'll give Israel chances no one else deserves.
That's a pile of sad excuse for a stance supporting f terrorism. and no wonder they arab world is getting angrier and angrier with twits that think like you two.
scumunderhim why do you say you are defending Israel.This argument was started by Gherkin.
No one else brought Israel into it.
I have already gained a little more loathing for the state of Israel as you two carry on.
keep making the world hate you.
"could you be loved?" I doubt it.
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300. chronophobe,
Dunno about Arab nationalism in Palestine. Loyalty was more to clans than any concept of national identity. Only in the 1960s did the idea of a Palestinian identity emerge - primarily as a stick with which to beat Israel.
299. SamTyler1969,
Ye need that foul mouth washed out with bilge water, lad. No wonder the ladies have fled.
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So know one is willing to talk about the OAS summit or anything else besides Israel/Palestine? I think I shall take my leave of this blog until the next topic or someone changes the subject-Ive done my part. Maybe Ill go get a CCs coffee and a paper...
Fun pirate trivia: Captain Jean Lafitte and his pirates, based in Barataria Bay, helped secure American victory against the British at the Battle of New Orleans at the end of the war of 1812.
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283. At 5:00pm on 17 Apr 2009, KScurmudgeon wrote:
271. At 3:43pm on 17 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
But I take issue with your rather flippant attitude to Israel's right to re-establish herself in her ancient homeland. There is no people on earth who deserve that homeland more than the Jews. No one fought for it, died for it, maintained communities in it and retained a connection to it through the millennia as did the Jews. Not even close.
Aha - so you are a supporter. I am too, although for reasons that are quite unacceptable in this company.
Frankly, I have not been to Israel, and know only American Jews of European ancestry. Hence my incomplete understanding. thank you
KScurmud----------------------
------------
Again you are giving full national status and a place on the UN to the american Indians WHEN?
Bias you are confused scudmajohn.
you could rephrase that as.
Those that win by force get the prize.
Then you want to bitch about Iran having it's own bombs and call all other nations that raise a fist in anger terrorists.
you are as destined for heaven MR so called religious as I am for the "Alcoholic of the year award".
I read your book. it did not say kill anyone. Unless you ignore the bit by Jesus and just go straight back to the pre Christian teachings.
Mods well done another blog ruined. well done. congratulate yourselves.
A few more people may end up suffering but there will be no solutions from those that don't see that change and not doing the same thing may result in better happenings. KSC you are a fool to think unconditional support will get anything other than war.
It seems that Obama may see that. If he does good luck and watch out Israel.
Any Jewish refugees are welcome at my place.
As long as they don't bring their zionists with them.
Oh wait most of them are self confessed Ignorant americans, withno decent reason for supporting the hatred that is modern Israel.
(seeing as they are allowed to tar all arabs with the same brush . and anyone with a "darker complexion that was not paid for") I suppose from now on we can stop saying that there are peaceful jews out there.
be like truely the biggest liar on the blog. make general statements and mod the nasty replies while insisting that hate speech is OK.
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304 We are not allowed to depart from this topic ..Truly a pack of untruths has deemed it so and now that the Zionist front of no reason is gaining ground why should they stop.
303 the ladies fled because they think you are an offensive racist twit. they said so.
They think Sam kinda cute , but you, they see in much the same way as something that would not be picked up on a Devon Coast path unless the owner was being filmed.
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Ref 295, KS
"Will they hold another free and fair election, in which their right to govern is submitted to the popular will?"
The unfortunate reality is that Palestinian elections, concessions, and pacifism are irrelevant. Even Mother Teresa would have been labeled a female suicide bomber in waiting had she been elected by the Palestinians. Elections and terrorism are diversions to hide Israel's goal, which is the eventual annexation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to Israel.
The question is how to do it and not appearing to be a rogue nation. The answer is to demonize the Palestinians, continuously accuse them of terrorism, claim links to Iran, and insinuate a grand scheme designed to turn the entire Middle East, and eventually the world into a Islamic Republic imposing Sharia law onto innocent westerners.
The Gaza Strip will probably be the first target, and if the only resistance are UN resolutions (likely to be blocked by the USA) and condemnations by the EU while 1.5 million people march single file out of their concentration camp to Jordan and/or Egypt, the West Bank will follow.
There was very little ambiguity in Netanyahu's rejection of special envoy Mitchell proposal regarding a two-state solution. Clearly, that is not part of the plan and the sooner the Obama administration understands what they are up against the better off we will all be. With Bibi in charge we can expect "evidence" of Palestinian atrocities to emerge in the near future, and retaliation to follow to, purportedly, save the world.
When it comes to the Arabs neighbors don't forget that Egypt is the second largest recipient of US foreign aid, a bribe paid to them to leave Israel alone, that Israel is the only nuclear power in the region, and the fact that it is unlikely that President Obama, or any other US President, will risk his political future to defend the indefensible in the eyes of most Americans.
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#303
Yarrr wrong again. The wenches love a man wi a yard arm. One o me beaties is being spliced by me main brace as we speak. I'll be raising more than me skull and cross bones tonight.
Yo ho ho, where's me rum?
Cap'n Sambeard
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302. At 7:09pm on 17 Apr 2009, happylaze wrote:
truely a pile of lies. and kurmudgeon. sad and pathetic.
- just what I have learned to expect from some who claim to be rational and liberal.
Godless.
have you read the racist crap from your buddy.
- I'm sure I don't know which 'buddy' you are talking about. My opinions are my own, and not likely to be readily justified here. I do find occasional agreements in very strange places.
oh no not racist to say I'll give Israel chances no one else deserves.
That's a pile of sad excuse for a stance supporting f terrorism. and no wonder they arab world is getting angrier and angrier with twits that think like you two.
My guess is that my stance is racist. The children of Abraham would qualify as a race, more or less, and the children of Isaac as well as the descendants of Ishmael (the surviving Semites) as racial subsets. Promises were made ca. 4000 years ago, and the fate of all humanity is involved. This is why none of us can let this tail go - even me, who promised myself that I would stay out of the endless squabbling.
As a serious student of ancient and mediaeval history, and as a student of the biblical record, I put all this in the longer context. Modern ideas belong to modern men, and may or may not be applied successfully to modern problems. As you imply, it isn't really a matter of how we wish things are, but of how they are, and what we can do with them.
Israel does behave like a terrorist state at times - the Palestinian Arabs seem to support terrorism as policy as well. One wonders what the unregenerated character of father Abram was, to have two such children.
I know this - The will of God is good. The best outcome and our duty is to seek the will of God and to do it. One finds the will of God through prayer and submission. Humility is the sine qua non on that path. If this sounds like the way of Islam, I believe it is that, as well. As has been said, it is our puzzle to work out - to find the will of God.
scumunderhim why do you say you are defending Israel.This argument was started by Gherkin.
I missed something here - who is Gherkin?
No one else brought Israel into it.
I have already gained a little more loathing for the state of Israel as you two carry on. keep making the world hate you. "could you be loved?" I doubt it.
I would not want such bitterness in my mouth.
KScurmudgeon
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Congratulations to the Navy SEALs, who deserve 100% of it, as opposed to the Obamessiah who deserves precisely none.
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ref #307
How come people who object when the U.S tries to dictate rouge and human right's violators like Iran, Venezuela and Cuba; are quick to insist that the U.S should dictate to Israel.
You can't have it both ways especially when one is our friend and the other three are run by war criminals.
Best luck next time in Bolivia.
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301. chronophobe wrote:
It's the central dilemma of our time. Political, economic, religious, moral, ethical, legal, etc., dimensions all wrapped up in a knot of Gordian proportions.
Now ain't that the truth. Add historic, geographic, East never meeting West and all that.
Anyone want to talk about other areas of conflict?
*China and Tibet
*Burma
*Sri Lanka
*Congo
*Zimbabwe
*Sahara
*Sudan
Didn't think so.
Actually we could discuss the Israel-Iran conflict in relation to the 2010 Football World Cup. What would happen if both countries qualified and were drawn to play against each other? Iran refuses to play any sport against Israel and drops out rather than have any dreaded contact with the Israeli infidels. (Recently an Iranian wrestler dropped out and also an Iranian swimmer.) So Iran would be forced to concede the match without kicking a ball, the players would have to go home with their tails between their legs, Israel would automatically advance to the next round and Iran would face disciplinary proceedings from FIFA for disgraceful lack of sportsmanship and failure to fulfil its obligations under FIFA rules. It would probably be banned from competing in the next two world cups. FIFA is pretty strict about things like this.
302/305/306 jacksforge/happylaze,
Calm down, you'll do yourself an injury. What's wrong with you? Can't you make one comment about Israel or Israel's supporters without grinding your teeth and clenching your fists? You should stop hating so much. It's bad for you.
307. saintDominick wrote:
Elections and terrorism are diversions to hide Israel's goal, which is the eventual annexation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to Israel.
I don't know where you get this stuff from. If Israel wanted to "annex" the Gaza Strip it went a funny way about it in 2005, withdrawing from every square inch of Gaza. I think you need to work on your sense of direction.
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299, Sam -
Five different attachments? Variable speeds? This wench will have to give it some serious thought, even though you be no Jack Sparrow. Keep on with the sweet talk, matey. I'm lovin' it.
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307. At 7:43pm on 17 Apr 2009, saintDominick wrote:
Ref 295, KS
"Will they hold another free and fair election, in which their right to govern is submitted to the popular will?"
The unfortunate reality is that Palestinian elections, concessions, and pacifism are irrelevant.
I am afraid that does not answer my question. Is Hamas interested in having a democratic state? Would they bring their nation into the society of democratic states? What is Hamas' character? We seem all to approach this issue from our inexorable preconceptions.
There was very little ambiguity in Netanyahu's rejection of special envoy Mitchell proposal regarding a two-state solution. Clearly, that is not part of the plan and the sooner the Obama administration understands what they are up against the better off we will all be.
I agree entirely, in the short term. Weeks, months, a year or two, a single lifetime perhaps is still the short term. The solution may not be in this generation's hands, although I pity this generation for it's suffering if it is not.
But by now you will have read my last post. I renounce this issue again for it's futility.
God bless us all,
yours,
KScurmudgeon
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309. At 8:03pm on 17 Apr 2009, KScurmudgeon wrote:
"Promises were made ca. 4000 years ago, and the fate of all humanity is involved."
No it isn't. Many millions of the people who comprise humanity (as I keep having to pint out) can hardly be bound by promises made to one small part of it according to only one book and one god out of many.
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309 glad to see you starting to make some sense.
Gherkin is the poster that started this thread down a path of Israel
Ok that was on the other thread and Truly a zionist spammer brought it over here with his defence of himself and his accusations of simon being the one that brought it up. itself a lie or at least an Untruth.
Shove your Bible where you want.
Now two posts have been ruined by the crap discussion that is always brought to the Table by a supporter Of Israel.
That discussion that would best fit the Mid east site is Boring to many here. and annoying to most.
Both God through Moses and Jesus both said NO KILLING.
Laugh at me but when an agnostic like me walks past your sinning hell bound false witness ass on my way to heaven, you won't laugh so loud.
"I am prejudiced, biased in their regard more even than I am patriotic toward my own country"
this is what makes you bias. you admit it.You are prejudiced against the people of Palestine or "would be Palestine Is the zionists would let it"
"Israel does behave like a terrorist state at times- the Palestinian Arabs seem to support terrorism as policy as well. One wonders what the unregenerated character of father Abram was, to have two such children."
The Palestinians have been tortured all their lives with sonic booms and bombs and soldiers threatening and torturing relatives of Palestinians.
the average Palestinian is so much younger . hot heads abound because your favoured executioners have been assassinating those with the age in the organisation.
To know the truth as you claim and to ignore it is pretty sick.
To say it is OK for Israel to rule with terror and hold the Palestinians who have no legitimate way of defending themselves as terrorists is sick.
and won't get you near the pearly gates . maybe shown the down slide though.
I read your Bible. I read your letters. you seem sometimes to be fair , but how do you defend the indefensible so easily.
You should go to confession.
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294, untrue.
"It's pretty clear what kind of state Hamas would establish - a fundamentalist Islamic state with the top boy in complete and utter control, devotees of other religions reduced to quaking dhimmi status and the people living in fear of their overlords."
My gosh. I could have sworn you were taling about Israel.
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312 when can you be polite. it is you that has posted so so so so so so so so so so so many post on this topic.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/profile/?userid=6770256
It is Racists that are against Darker folk that I hate.
I also object to you.
I think you dishonest . I think you are here to incite racial hatred.
And besides you are thick as a brick.
so why don't you calm down and express yourself .
311. At 8:11pm on 17 Apr 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #307
How come people who object when the U.S tries to dictate rouge and human right's violators like Iran, Venezuela and Cuba; are quick to insist that the U.S should dictate to Israel.
You can't have it both ways especially when one is our friend and the other three are run by war criminals.
-------------------------------------------------------
Why is one a friend and one an enemy when they behave the same.
surely if it were as you say we would have a total embargo against Israel.
Now either you are for the dictation to others and to Israel or you should shut up about Iran having bombs etc.
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284, untrue.
"He wont say anything about the land the early Jewish settlers purchased, unless it is to minimise the importance of that fact or land that was not owned by anyone but fell under the Mandate or marshland not wanted by anyone and that the Jews reclaimed."
I have often heard the spurious argument that the Jews had some sort of entitlement because they owned land in what was Palestine. Since most of the privately-owned land in the United States is held by Christians, does that mean they have the right to expel Jews, Moslims, and other non-Christians? Spurious, to say the least..
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only following orders to torture!!!
The Geneva convention not good enough??
The International Court not appropriate for the States?
Get thee to The Hague
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How - and why - is it that virtually every new subject here degenerates into an Israel-Palestine argument? Surely there must be a blog where the familiar and oft-stated arguments can be rehashed over-and-over again? The primary miscreants know who they are; it would be interesting to know how many others are tired of the same old back-and-forth which gets nowhere. Or am I the only one who is irritated?
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Why does MagicKirin keep talking about rouge? I thought the beauty secrets were on another thread.
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321, David -
Those who share your irritation (and I am one of them) are sharing beauty secrets in the kitchen.
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321 David_Cunard
You are not alone. The rest of us are hiding out on the other thread. Ready to repel all invaders at a moment's notice. Bring your fabulous wit and come and join us.
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314. KScurmudgeon wrote:
I am afraid that does not answer my question. Is Hamas interested in having a democratic state? Would they bring their nation into the society of democratic states? What is Hamas' character? We seem all to approach this issue from our inexorable preconceptions.
I'm not sure preconceptions need have a lot to do with it. All we need do is look at the facts to determine what a Palestinian state under Hamas would look like:
*In its violent takeover of Gaza, Hamas murdered Fatah prisoners by throwing them off high buildings.
*During Israel's attack in January, Hamas murdered more Fatah members and kneecapped others.
*Hamas will not allow Fatah to assemble in the Strip and breaks up Fatah meetings by shooting people.
*Hamas has kept captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit for three years in the most inhuman conditions, giving out no information on his well-being and not even allowing the bare minimum of a Red Cross visit.
*Hamas condones or actively encourages the murder of Gaza Christians and the destruction of their centres.
*Hamas kidnaps journalists.
*Hamas steals UN aid bound for the needy of Gaza.
Not looking too democratic so far.
317. allmymarbles wrote:
My gosh. I could have sworn you were taling about Israel.
That's pretty weak. What I said bears no resemblance to Israel, as you know.
319. allmymarbles wrote:
Since most of the privately-owned land in the United States is held by Christians, does that mean they have the right to expel Jews, Moslims, and other non-Christians?
That in fact is a spurious argument. Are you another one who maintains that Israel has no right to exist?
321. David_Cunard,
I don't think it's every new thread. I took issue with something KScurmudgeon wrote at no. 84 and it snowballed from there.
I still fail to understand why people can't simply use their scrollbar if they don't like the direction a thread is taking. There is also nothing to stop them making their own contributions on a different subject and seeing if others want to run with that.
Contributors here are really possessive over this blog. It's against the spirit of the Internet.
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321 because 'gherkin 'brings it up and 'truly a fraud 'censors the discussion by referring to the mods until all talk about what ever he wants. while he complains it is not a private blog and now has the poodle pack helping with more it's not a club cries as they then invite us to join in one of his selected subjects of discussion.
Personally I say kick the idiot.
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324 subtle time.
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321. At 9:05pm on 17 Apr 2009, David_Cunard wrote: Or am I the only one who is irritated?
Tired, gone, I hope I am welcome in the kitchen.......
KScurmudgeon
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#273: So what are you saying, exactly? That Bush probably was guilty of war crimes, but we shouldn't put him on trial for them because it might be inconvenient?
If so, I have to say I don't share your view of how justice ought to work.
As for your earlier point though, I agree that it's more important to go after those who were giving the orders than those who were obeying them. But I still think that justice demands you go after both.
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happylaze
"subtle" Are you being sarcastic? If so you know I am not talking about you. I enjoy your flying posts, bringing us news of fresh disaster. Before you sally forth again... Into the fray.
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I'm outta here. And if any of you say anything nasty about me when I'm gone....
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re: 328 KS: "Tired, gone, I hope I am welcome in the kitchen......."
Curmudgeon,
Hell yes. Just check your pistols at the door.
Yours,
Pinko
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timewaits, I suspect that happy was suggesting that you were being sarcastic to someone else.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
331, untrue.
"I'm outta here. And if any of you say anything nasty about me when I'm gone...."
You will put a hex on us? Watch out Happy Jack, et al.
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321. David.
Couldn't agree with you more.
"Justin and the Moderators" need to indicate that some strings will not be open to the never ending dialogue of the deaf, and will ban meantion of Israel, Palestine, AIPAC, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., etc., while other strings will either be open to it or reserved specifically for it.
Sort of the same way that some parks in big cities that are reserved for children accompanied by adults, and some parks permit dogs to run loose, and defecate everywhere.
234. That was a good post.
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Ref 311, Magic
"How come people who object when the U.S tries to dictate rouge and human right's violators like Iran, Venezuela and Cuba; are quick to insist that the U.S should dictate to Israel."
The US should not dictate anything to anybody. What it should do in the case of Israel is stop giving over $3B a year in financial aid, plus military aid and unconditional moral support regardless of how many atrocities they commit.
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333 seanspa
So then it was a compliment? That is if he values subtlety. Not sure about that part.
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timewaits, how could it be anything other than complimentary?
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338 seanspa
Yeah right! Are we talking about the same person? You do remember who said it? But thank you.
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336. At 00:28am on 18 Apr 2009, Interestedforeigner wrote:
234. That was a good post.
Thank'ee
I thought it was pertinent.
KScurmudgeon
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335. allmymarbles wrote:
You will put a hex on us?
No, I'll just bludgeon you with the Israeli-Arab conflict.
336. Interestedforeigner,
Seems to me that you are disinterested.
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Military adventures? Killing people is not an adventure, Somalis have had nuclear waste dumped in their sees for many years now, wouldn't you become a pirate to try and highlight this?????
They are dying from toxins washed up from these ships, if your brother, mother and young sister were full of scabs you would do the same, WAKE UP AND DO SOME RESEARCH !!!!!!!
Ignorance leads to rhetoric of ignorance and ignorance is unforgivable when we all have the internet, swithch off your tv and don't buy a newspaper, get educated not dumbed down.
PS, Reuters, the font of all so called news owns AP and is wholly owned by one family. Guess who??
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#342
Yarrrrr. Boring
Cap'n Sambeard
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Is this time for the ship of the desert joke?
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Cap'n (344),
Aye, but it passes his self-set brevity test....
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I believe Reuters is over 50% owned by Thompson Reuters, a Canadian company owned by the Thompson Family. Perhaps it is their intention to have Canada control the world! How subtle and quietly Canadian. Or maybe they are owned by someone unbeknownst to me.
May I assure you all, being governed by Canadians has its advantages. Think of the money saved if the bailing out of the banks had not been required.
If we are speaking of a different Reuters please ignore my misleading information.
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Noman (347),
- "believe Reuters is over 50% owned by Thompson Reuters, a Canadian company owned by the Thompson Family. Perhaps it is their intention to have Canada control the world! How subtle and quietly Canadian. Or maybe they are owned by someone unbeknownst to me."
Reminds me...Who own the airplanes
Who own the malls
Who own television
Who own radio
Who own what ain't even known to be owned
Who own the owners that ain't the real owners..."
;-)
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#345
Aye! I know it not, but if it be about ships it be right by me.
Cap'n Sambeard
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#345
Winnit,
Don't recall them tharrr pirates flyin a Greenpeace flag or demanding waste be removed. Do recall them threatening unarmed folks and taking hostages for rasnom.
They ain't real pirates. They be land lubbing robbin scum afraid of an honest bit of lootin and plunderin.
Cap'n Sam
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Would that be the eight-day camel?
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343 thanks for showing understanding that WE in the rich world create what we get.
Those that are polluted are not the ones gaining. so they do whatever they can. even if it is Piracy.
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In reply to the question about "Pieces of Eight" - got this from Answers.com:
Pieces of Eight, Spanish silver coins of eight reals (eight bits), first authorized in 1497. Also known as pesos and Spanish dollars, they were minted in enormous quantities and soon became recognized as a reliable medium of exchange in the European colonies of North America. Subsidiary coins—four reals (half dollar, four bits) and two reals (quarter dollar, two bits)—were also minted. In 1728, Spain began coinage of the milled dollar to replace the piece of eight. The Coinage Act of 1792 made the dollar the new nation's official currency and fixed it at approximately the same weight of silver as the Spanish peso.
(Would have provided the link, but last time I did that is somehow damaged Bere's machine.)
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Not trumping the rescue mission as an administration success is a step in the right direction. Using the military as political capitol not only undervalues other missions that are equal to or more risky because they're carried out in secret but pumps the public with false expectations...a slap in the face for an excellent job.
The USA has the very best military on the planet, not even the Roman Empire at it's peak was so formidable. Despite having the latter as a resource, I hope the current administration doesn't turn out to to be as cavalier as their predecessors.
This is a good sign but the President's ratings are still strong. We'll have to see what happens when there's a sustained downturn. Military trumping for political points works very well, as the Bush administration proved.
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352, happy Jack.
"Those that are polluted are not the ones gaining. so they do whatever they can. even if it is Piracy."
I don't think you can excuse outright criminality, Jack. Would you excuse anyone in forclosure who robbed local businesses and took the owners hostage? Isn't that the same thing?
I had to abandon the main topic because those jokers are back on Israel. Not clear how they got there, but they always find a way. Who is paying them....
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353, Interested -
No damage done to the machine! Just a temporary mishap, and quite probably a coincidence. I tend to panic out of all proportion when anything unusual occurs on the machine.
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253, Interested.
When I was a kid it was common to call a quarter "two bits,"and a half dollar "four bits," I don't seem to hear that any more. Does anyone know if the terms are still in use?
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Ms Marbles,
"Two bits, four bits, six bits, a dollar" was part of a sports cheer when I was wee. A quarter was always "two bits"
Showing our age, eh lass?
;-)
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358. Hesiodos.
"Showing our age, eh lass?"
Why not? I worked hard for it.
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354. , FBZusa wrote:
"The USA has the very best military on the planet, not even the Roman Empire at it's peak was so formidable. Despite having the latter as a resource . . ."
Don't tell me the Pentagon has got a time machine now.
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360, british-ish -
Yes, that was funny, wasn't it? And (speaking for Lynne Truss, you understand!) there's that apostrophe hanging where it's got no business. Where's my paint brush?
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289. Ed Iglehart/Hesiodos,
Slow down. Yes the elections were apparently free and fair but Hamas won only in Gaza, not overall in Palestine."
I beg to differ:
2006 ELECTION
1) Hamas - 74 seats
2) Fatah - 45 seats
3) PFLP - 3 seats
4) Badeel - 2 seats
5) Independent Palestine - 2
6) Third Way - 2
Source: BBC
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354. At 9:34pm on 18 Apr 2009, FBZusa wrote:
The USA has the very best military on the planet, not even the Roman Empire at it's peak was so formidable.
When the US military is 400 years old, then it might be worth making this comparison.
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362, hesiodos.
If the Israelis could elect terrorists (Menechem Begin comes to mind), why shouldn't the Palestinians?
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314. KScurmudgeon wrote:
I am afraid that does not answer my question. Is Hamas interested in having a democratic state? Would they bring their nation into the society of democratic states? What is Hamas' character? We seem all to approach this issue from our inexorable preconceptions.
I'm not sure preconceptions need have a lot to do with it. All we need do is look at the facts to determine what a Palestinian state under Hamas would look like:
*In its violent takeover of Gaza, Hamas murdered Fatah prisoners by throwing them off high buildings.
*During Israel's attack in January, Hamas murdered more Fatah members and kneecapped others.
*Hamas will not allow Fatah to assemble in the Strip and breaks up Fatah meetings by shooting people.
*Hamas has kept captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit for three years in the most inhuman conditions, giving out no information on his well-being and not even allowing the bare minimum of a Red Cross visit.
*Hamas condones or actively encourages the murder of Gaza Christians and the destruction of their centres.
*Hamas kidnaps journalists.
*Hamas steals UN aid bound for the needy of Gaza."
Not looking too democratic so far.
According to the average Likudnik no.
But hard to see how any of this justifies shooting schoolchildren and droping phosphorus bombs on civilians.
Corproal Gilad's family has been betrayed by the Israeli government,whihc prefers to keep palestinian children in indefninate detention rather than negotiate.
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The unvarnished truth is...that ultimately, the US military is not under civilian control, it is under the control of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The real Krushchev moment came when Kennedy realized what he cabled Khrushchev at the height of the Cuban missile crisis; "I don't know how much longer I can control my generals. Had the threat not been successfully removed, the military would have taken it upon itself to bomb the Russian missile emplacements in Cuba and probably invade as well. This would likely have quickly escalated to worldwide thermonuclear war. Had Kennedy tried to stop them, I along with most who observed events of that time have no doubt he'd have been assassinated immediately or just ignored.
The decision to shoot the pirates would have been taken at the site and justified no matter what Obama said or didn't say in the way of giving orders. The US Navy would not have been stood down the way the British Navy was by Iran.
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Lostallyourmarbles, I wonder if Roxana Saberi, the American reporter of Iranian decent still has the same deluded naive view of Iran and the Islamic world you do. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's transparent attempt to play the old game black hat-white hat where he's cast himself as the white hat coming to the rescue of the American reporter puts him in a role that just doesn't fit the reality of who the world knows he is. The devil's horn still stick through beyond his cheap foolish mask. Perhaps the next two or three or five years inside an Iranian political prison will give her time to think things over and reconsider. Perhaps by then the US and Iran will work out a trade. We didn't freeze billions of dollars in Iranian assets for nothing. Personally I would give them one dollar in exchange to rescue her from her stupidity. I wouldn't give any to rescue you from yours either.
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367, staphylococcus aureus.
I don't know anything about her therefore, unlike you who also know nothing about her, I have no opinion. She may be a spy. She may not be a spy. Only your friendly CIA agent knows for sure.
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Ref the American 'journalist.'
Eight years for spying is a reasonable sentence. And she has the opportunity of an appeal. That seems much fairer treatment to that given to the hundreds incarcerated in Guantanamo without any trial whatsoever.
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Richard_Sm, are you saying that Iran is a terrorist camp?
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370. At 05:00am on 20 Apr 2009, seanspa wrote:
Richard_Sm, are you saying that Iran is a terrorist camp?"
Is that how you interpret his posting? He is saying the exact opposite.
How fortunate you are not a diplomat.
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367. At 03:42am on 20 Apr 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Lostallyourmarbles, I wonder if Roxana Saberi, the American reporter of Iranian decent still has the same deluded naive view of Iran and the Islamic world you do."
What is the "Islamic world"? Does it include the US?
What about the "black world" does it include the US too?
"Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's transparent attempt to play the old game black hat-white hat where he's cast himself as the white hat coming to the rescue of the American reporter puts him in a role that just doesn't fit the reality of who the world knows he is."
You are the world? Wow delusions on delusions.
" The devil's horn still stick through beyond his cheap foolish mask. Perhaps the next two or three or five years inside an Iranian political prison will give her time to think things over and reconsider. Perhaps by then the US and Iran will work out a trade. We didn't freeze billions of dollars in Iranian assets for nothing. Personally I would give them one dollar in exchange to rescue her from her stupidity. I wouldn't give any to rescue you from yours either. "
So you concede she is a spy? You agree with her trial?
Or you think women should be imprisoned for their views?
Or only Iranian women should be imprisoned for having views you disagree with?
Your prejudives really screw you up don't they.
Here you are agreeing with the Iranians imprisoning a US citizen!
What a clown.
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Simon (371),
- "Is that how you interpret his posting? He is saying the exact opposite."
Time to wash out your Irony filters, methinks;-)
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Keep in mind that, no matter what happens, it has to be elevated to a story if it is to be published.
A number of the war-time Q-ships (heavily-armed and disguised merchant ships) with orders to blow pirates out of the water would work wonders.
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Lostallyourmarbles, in case you hadn't heard it yourself, President Obama said yesterday at a press conference in Trinadid that she is not a spy for anyone in the US government. Or do you say he's also a liar like Bush when his words don't fit your warped view of the world?
Simple Simon
"But hard to see how any of this justifies shooting schoolchildren and droping phosphorus bombs on civilians."
When it was the RAF bombing Germans with phosphorous and killing women and children in cities in Nazi Germany, the justification was clear. The difference? Protecting valuable British lives is admirable. Protecting worthless Jewish lives in Israel is a crime in itself. They are not worth anything to those of your mentality. From my point of view, it's the other way around.
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#373, thanks ed. Britain needs lerts!
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375. At 1:49pm on 20 Apr 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Simple Simon
"But hard to see how any of this justifies shooting schoolchildren and droping phosphorus bombs on civilians."
When it was the RAF bombing Germans with phosphorous and killing women and children in cities in Nazi Germany, the justification was clear. The difference?"
Was that it was World war II an Britian was not seeking to colonise Germany as a home for the British people.
Next question!
"Protecting valuable British lives is admirable."
Killing schoolchildren though is not. Is it.
"Protecting worthless Jewish lives in Israel is a crime in itself. They are not worth anything to those of your mentality. From my point of view, it's the other way around."
Is this how you justify shooting schoolchildren? How does killing a baby with a fragmentation bomb protect jewsih lives Marcus?
From my point of view andd that of other people that would make you a terr. supporter.
Just asking
Mad marcus
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Simple Simon, from the point of view of criminals, every attempt by police to capture them and for the courts and prisons to incarcerate them are police brutality. The Israelis did not go out of their way to target Palestinian Children the way the RAF did not go out of its way to target German women and children. In fact they tried hard not to but the cowardly Hamas terrorists used children as human shields so that people like you would have an argument to make on their behalf. And you and I and everyone else who reads this who followed the war knows that. Why do you like to pretend everyone else is ignorant and doesn't already know? The Islamic terrorists you defend however do go out of their way to target women and children. That in part is what makes them terrorists and differentiates them from civilized people.
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The point is Ms Saberi is fortunate for having been arrested in Iran. For her, of Iranian descent, it could have been the other way round.
She has been treated in a far more civilised manner than if she'd been arrested by the Americans for spying:
She's had a trial.
She knows her sentence.
She has the opportunity of an appeal.
The media is aware of her situation.
And it appears she hasn't been tortured.
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Richard (379),
Indeed. I second your observations. Gitmo is going to take a long time (and an awful lot of evidence of a change of heart) to live down.
-- Wendell Berry in "The Idea of a Local Economy"
Peace to all
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richard_sm, all fair points. Of course, she may have just been arrested, charged and found guilty because she is american, and not tortured because the iranians know she has no information they want. I do not know, so this is only speculation on my part. I find it odd though that the the iranian president made a call for fairness in this case only after the trial and sentencing has already happened.
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Sadly, Obama did what Obama does... someone else made the decision on the spot. After repeatedly asking for Obama to respond to changing situations for the hostage, the commander at the site made the decision to have the SEAL shooters fire to protect the hostage. Granted, not the credit taking that you are hearing from the media or the White House, but rather people able to be decisive and direct. Not this president that's for sure... has he actually told the truth on anything yet? Maybe the name of the new dog...
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382 -
Uh, yeah, Obama, in the White House, thousands of miles away, should have made the decision on when to shoot. Never should have been left to the guys actually holding the guns, the guys actually watching the pirates through their night vision goggles, the guys with the sharpshooter training. No, no, a really strong decisive president would have micro-managed everything down to the last detail, even as to which Seal should shoot which pirate.
Are you some kind of fool?
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marbles . difference is those ships emptying out their tanks have done some harm.
now they are not happy pirates.
They are not saying give us money or we will blow up your tankers.
anyway Piracy is subjective. So many ,seeing as the thread is dead , have defended piracy all the time.
Israel engages in acts of Piracy all the time along the coast of Gaza.
They call it a blockade , but they are pirating ships and have gaza under siege so effective are their pirates.
SO my question is why say one group of Pirates are worse than another.
They did look after their prisoners at least.
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331. At 10:14pm on 17 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
I'm outta here. And if any of you say anything nasty about me when I'm gone....
Truly a Turd .
WHAT you get them Modded?
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THE TRUTH IS NOT RELEVANT ANYMORE. EVEN WHEN IT COMES OUT (LIKE IN THE CASE OF CIA AND WATER-BOARDING OF "CONFESSED" AL-QAEDA MEMBERS) IT SEEMS THAT NO-ONE WANTS TO KNOW...
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375, staphylococcus aureus.
As to the so-called American spy, since I am not on the inside, I have no opinion. Politics has several layers. Truth may even be one of them. Certainly the media is not truth. So go read your newspapers, browse the internet, and form your opinion based, as usual, on sensation and ignorance.
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Mostly another untruth.
Israel sold spy planes to Russia. How are they on america's side.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7994076.stm
Seems to me all money to Israel should be stopped immediately. We cannot trust them.
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382. bere
Right on.
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357, 358, 359. Marbles & Ed.
Yes, a quarter was always two bits, but I don't recall hearing the term recently. I suspect that it has something to do with diminishing buying power.
Think of all the terms you know for money in different countries and different denominations, and the history that lies behind them. Just for the UK: Pound, quid, guinea, bob, crown, sovereign, shilling, dollar, halfcrown, tuppence, penny, hapenny, farthing, groat. There are probably many more.
And, returning to the topic of this blog, we discussed mercenaries, affairs piratical, and Sambeard's freebooting buccaneering tour-de-farce, but nobody ever pointed out the the word "soldier" itself comes from paying men to fight - the payment, the Roman word solidus, is the root of the French word "solde", i.e., pay.
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354 FBZusa
"The USA has the very best military on the planet, not even the Roman Empire at it's peak was so formidable. Despite having the latter as a resource, I hope the current administration doesn't turn out to to be as cavalier as their predecessors."
It makes you wince: Hubris and nemesis, mate.
Or, as my mother used to say, pride cometh before a fall.
Right now America has an unmatched ability to project military power over long distances. But, as for all nations before, fortunes wax and wane. The ability to project military power is ultimately linked to the strength of a nation's economy, and America's chickens have been coming home to roost. Ref.: Mahan "The Influence of Sea Power on History", Kennedy, "The Rise and Fall of the great Powers".
Keep in mind also that, while America has the fanciest, best and most expensive kit, pound for pound lots of people think that the UK has the finest small army in the world. That's why even America sometimes discretely calls on the SAS, and sometimes asks others for help with intelligence where those others have more experience and insight. That isn't an admission of weakness, it is an appropriate demonstration of wisdom and modesty.
It is right to take pride in the ability and quality of the armed forces, but it is best to do so quietly, and with respect. I like your second sentence much more than the first one.
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390, Interested.
Strictly, since all of our soldiers are regular army, they are all mercenaries.
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Simple Simon;
"Is this how you justify shooting schoolchildren?"
No,not schoolchildren, Englishmen. As Noel Coward said, "Only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the noonday sun." That may be the best time because only they are out there, the difficulty can be telling them apart. :-) However, come to think of it, today's schoolchild just might be tomorrow's terrorist.
Lostallyourmarbles, I know you are not on the inside, you don't have to tell me that. I've read your postings though and I sometimes think you ought to be. So far I've gotten my news about the Iranian American reporter from BBC. If that is what you characterize as sensation and ignorance so be it. I won't argue that point. Since all soldiers are paid even some small token amount, by your account all soldiers in all armies are mercenaries too. You been taking lessons from the world famous definition twisting liar Noam Chomsky? That's exactly the kind of pejoratives he'd use to selectively character assassinate those he doesn't like. Small wonder BBC seemed to think so highly of him. From the look of what happens to our soldier's families when they are called up, they are not paid very well. I think the private contractors do much better. I think wars will be far more acceptable to Americans when we fight them with robot soldiers the way we use drone planes now. Not much protest here (the only place I care about) if no Americans are coming home in body bags.
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390 the rare and little known Dartmoor groat..
This R brought to you by Devon.
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MA . you never got it right once in a year and some here(and that is some feat, so why would any SANE person start believing you now.
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Two errors ,
so no answer to the bit about our buddies in Israel selling the sort of technology that may kill American boys the patriot fake.
No too difficult Keep stump.
Now MA that is behaving just like Truly terribly silly.
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Perhaps it's a little late to be adding to this, but I've only just seen it, so here goes. With reference to the original question of exagerating military claims, I don't think the current administration has quite shaken off the boastfulness of the last. From an account of the incident on CNN, the pirate boat was being towed in calm waters not more than 30m behind the US ship from which the shots were taken. Military snipers may not be Olympic-level shots, but at that distance they don't have to be. Any marksman worth his salt should be able to achieve an accuracy of about 0.25 to 0.5 MOA up to about 800m with a fairly standard 7.62mm target rifle. I don't know what rifle the SEALs were using, however even the most basic sniper rifle can achieve accuracy comparable to that of a good target rifle, and the SEALs are known to have at their disposal a number of rifle options that can project 0.25 - 0.5 MOA accuracy well beyond 800m. To put this in perspective, let's say you require a near-certain-kill head-shot to land within a 3 inch circle around the top-centre of the head; this means at 30m you would need to achieve an accuracy of roughly 8.7 MOA. With the SEALs likely achieving 0.25 MOA accuracy, they would have been able to land their bullets within 0.09 inches of their aiming mark. Without wishing to unduly make light of the achievement, this could likely have been achieved with their eyes shut. When the story first broke it sounded truly extraordinary - snipers taking out pirates with head-shots on the high seas. A truly astonishing feat. Now, though, I can't help but think there has been no small degree of over-stating the magnitude of the accomplishment.
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Simple Simon;
"Is this how you justify shooting schoolchildren?"
No,not schoolchildren, Englishmen.
I'm not English Marcus sorry.
" As Noel Coward said, "Only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the noonday sun." That may be the best time because only they are out there, the difficulty can be telling them apart. :-) However, come to think of it, today's schoolchild just might be tomorrow's terrorist."
So you stayed out too long Marcus.?
Noel Coward to justify the killing of children, only you mad marcus
"Lostallyourmarbles, I know you are not on the inside, you don't have to tell me that. I've read your postings though and I sometimes think you ought to be. So far I've gotten my news about the Iranian American reporter from BBC. If that is what you characterize as sensation and ignorance so be it. I won't argue that point. Since all soldiers are paid even some small token amount, by your account all soldiers in all armies are me