The Obama-Catholic row continues
Sunday 17 May is still D-day in the war between Barack Obama and the Catholic hierachy, with neither side standing down, in fact rather the opposite.
I hope this has nothing to do with it - Notre Dame as the Kent State de nos jours?
But it is a war, and in a war vice-presidents are not the only human beings who convince themselves that special measures are acceptable.
The position of the Catholic Chuch in President Obama's America is going to be one of the fascinating sub-plots to the main story over the next few years. There is a quite brilliant book just out (full disclosure: I know one of the authors) which argues that American religion - or more precisely the American approach to religion, as a set of choices in a spiritual market-place - is being exported successfully around the world.
But the book also makes the point that within the US, the Catholic Church is in many ways a failing institution:
"The Catholic Church has lost more people to other denominations or to no religion at all than any other religious group," it says.
The shortfall is made up, of course, by South American immigrants. Socially conservative immigrants.
So the Obama-friendly wing of the Church is in decline, and the hard-line anti-Obama wing is on the up.
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Obama is not at war with Catholics; they are at war with themselves. He should stay above the fray. If he is still on the agenda on graduation day, he should show up and speak. If he is not, what does it matter?
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The Catholic church is an anachronism and is destined to decline. As for the Hispanic immigrants, they are not likely to adhere strictly to church dogma, especially since the American Catholic church is Irish. That makes for a big culture clash.
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Fully it is being exported that was the point about the strange american loving catholics etc in the UK . they are the only ones that care and that as much as anything drives the people over there to get a little irked with america. to say the least.
The catholic church is failing in the US precisely because it is not hard core enough for the die hards and too those not inclined to join a multi national religious group under one head.
like it isn't anyway.
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"Notre Dame as the Kent State de nos jours?"
You're joking, right? There's no where near enough passion behind this issue. I'd be surprised if there was even an attempt at a sit in.
I'm still expecting Notre Dame itself to blink. I could very well be wrong on this, but I'm still betting they will. There's just too much money involved.
"...the Catholic Church is in many ways a failing institution"
Maybe, however at least in my neck of the woods, it's doing just fine.
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Too sad - U of ND invited Obama - this is more of an internal revolt for the church-state and its university and alumni. Shows a lack of cohesion and control - in support of the observation that the Catholic Church is a failing institution.
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lol, I know this is a serious subject, but I had to chuckle a little bit after hearing that there are two wings of the Catholic Church. I guess Im supposed to be in the hard-line anti-Obama wing, but I, my parents
(who like Obama), and my Grandparents are not Latin American immigrants and the Church seems to be doing just fine in South louisiana.
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As Henry VIII observed, "Where in the Bible does it say anything about a Pope?"
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President Obama's position on birth control and abortion is consistent with the opinion of most Americans. If the Vatican does not like it they should implement whatever policies they prefer...at the Vatican!
As Gary pointed out, this has more to do with the fights that are taking place within the catholic church than with Obama or European leaders. The best thing our president can do is ignore the whole thing and let the guys with the cassocks deal with their own problems.
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Justin, these are all good observations. I'm not sure that the Vatican has
quite figured out how to deal with American Catholics, except to threaten them
with excommunication. It's sort of like Fiat trying to sell cars here and
running up against Honda and Toyota.
And you might be correct that the American model of evangelism is taking
root. I hope that the net effect is better than that of Walmart.
I suspect that God is at the root of all of this upheaval. Like Coyote,
He is a trickster. If He didn't like religions, why did He create so many
of them?
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"The shortfall is made up, of course, by South American immigrants."
Mexico is not in South America.
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Justin, as you wrote:
"...American religion - or more precisely the American approach to religion, as a set of choices in a spiritual market-place - is being exported successfully around the world."
It's all about the right combination of marketing techniques applied to particular consumer groups. Successful mega-churches and television evangelists are more about revenues then reverence.
The Roman Catholic church just has not caught on how to market their services in the way the current evangelical movement does.
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Is there really a "row"? That is hard to believe. Maybe it is just a slow news week.
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Justin, the key to win in 2012 has nothing to do with Latin Ameerican immigrants, but with President Obama's ability to satisfy the base of the Democratic party and persuade enough Independents to vote for him. He is currently doing very well with those two constituencies.
Bear in mind that there is a huge schism between what the Catholic hierarchy preaches and expects and what people actually do. As many catholics as protestants and atheists have abortions, use birth control, are homosexuals, and do things that are inconsistent with dogmatic principles and the narrow interpretation of Biblical teachings.
I wouldn't make too much out of this, in the scheme of things the official opinion of the Catholic church is insignificant and meaningless.
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Ok, I have had time to think about this post and write a meaningful response. I think the division between Catholics is real, but it is far more complex than non-Catholics think it is; what is happening is that the Cafeteria Kennedy-esk Catholics of the North East and Mid-West are scattering and becoming less religious along with the general population in those regions, while the traditional Catholics are being welcomed back in to the pews to sit next to the practicing Catholics (both moderate and conservative alike).
As for the Church's decline compared to others, I'm going to have to dispute those statistics that suggested the Catholic Church is a "failing institution". In fact, I do not see it in my own diocese, and I have read elsewhere that it is Mainline Protestantism that is facing a slow death. Evangelical Mega-churches and Non-denominational churches are on the rise while the Catholic Church is down but holding steady.
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The Catholic Church is crumbling, there beliefs are in question, and there only reply:" Dont question me!". How is that better than scientific fact? Obama should take on the catholic church. try to turn catholics against the popes stance on issues, and maybe the next pope will be more liberal.
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As a Notre Dame student, a practicing Roman Catholic, and an avid Obama supporter, I find the whole situation frustrating. The words "atrocity," "disgrace," and "travesty" are getting thrown around like a frisbee without consequence. Perhaps if we used the OED once in a while we'd come across words such as "bigotry" and be a little more careful before labeling others so carelessly.
@ frayedcat: The idea that Notre Dame's invitation to the President of the United States (a longstanding tradition) "shows a lack of cohesion and control" is backwards, I think. The fact that a Catholic institution can freely open its doors to people who have different beliefs shows control and openness to dialogue with the world. If we were to be so cohesive and controlled as to shun all non-Catholics, we wouldn't get very far as a University.
The one thing you have to understand about ND is that we are very proud of our traditions. Thousands of students here are the sons and daughters of sons and daughters of ND graduates, who were probably sons and daughters of ND grads themselves. We pray, learn, and cheer just as generations did before us and we like it that way. Unfortunately, this commonly means that we aren't always open to change, so much so that many are up in arms over the idea of even listening to a different voice.
I just hope we can get past all that and focus on the fact that the President will be coming to honor the graduating class of 2009, not to perform abortions...
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Ref. 16
Hey, an undergrad! Allow me to invite you to stick around. It would be interesting to get your opinion on this board.
That's a nicely written post, too. I agree.
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Ref. 7 - Richard
'As Henry VIII observed, "Where in the Bible does it say anything about a Pope?"'
I'm not sure I'm with the King on that one. It certainly does name Peter as that man starts the church. From that point on there's been one man at the church. So, they started to call the man a "Pope" after the fact. I don't think that's relevant.
Nice quote, though.
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Ref. 17 (my own post)
"get your opinion" should be "have your opinion". I'm not looking for a review. ;)
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Come to think of it, it may be that this whole row, which gets hardly any airtime in the US, might very much be related to the appointment of Harry Knox, an avid anti-Catholic and critic of the Pope, to the White House Office of Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships. That might ultimately be the political connection to the tension between President Obama and many Catholics-it sure angered me.
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Well, what Justin's friend's book suggests to me is only that it's about time we had another Voltaire, another Marx, and another Nietzsche and the tide will turn in the secularists' favour again.
BTW, how does all this lauding of religion exported through the application of wealth sit with a certain episode to do with moneychangers in that book they are all supposed to espouse?
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16, bdroste -
"I just hope we can get past all that and focus on the fact that the President will be coming to honor the graduating class of 2009, not to perform abortions..."
I like your common sense approach. Very good point.
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One in four American voters is Catholic. That's not a group Obama can afford to alienate. It's a diverse group but not necessarily as liberal as Obama is.
And the Catholic Church is doing very well among my Catholic friends. For the first time in a long time, many of my friends are once again church-goers.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
As a conservative and someone who believes abortion is murder, I'm having a very hard time with this issue. I understand the desire to not promote abortion in any way; and the coverage that a president automatically generates WILL promote abortion.
But, the controversy itself is bringing out the nuts on both sides, and that can't be helpful to my cause.
And to top it off, my personal beliefs prohibit restricting freedom of speech, even over unpopular positions. I resent it when conservatives are shouted down in public or otherwise prevented from joining the debate du jour, and I would resent it if this president is prevented from speaking his mind.
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23, Andrea.
What proportion of the Catholics are non-practicing or lapsed. I simply cannot believe that one in every four people is a church-going Catholic. Wen a poll is taken, msny people give a cultural answer.without specifics.
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#24. all4USA: "Obama is at war with Christians. He is just startting with Catholics. His problem is with abortion which catholics and christians oppose"
Not all Christians, neither all Roman Catholics.
"Obama is currently reviewing a bill which will prevent any christian speaking out against homosexuals, he calls it 'anti hate'."
And quite right too, if it were possible for the President to review bills, which are made by our elected officials in Congress. Hate speech, as exemplified by Fred Phelps and his followers (who incidentally do not represent the Baptist church) deserves to be outlawed, just as it is in the United Kingdom. Freedom of speech does not necessarily cover everything someone says and, like shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre, inciting others to hatred ought to be curtailed.
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#24
Dude,
Paranoid.
Weirded out Sam
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9. At 00:20am on 23 Apr 2009, gunsandreligion wrote:
"I suspect that God is at the root of all of this upheaval. Like Coyote,
He is a trickster. If He didn't like religions, why did He create so many
of them?"
Look around you. The evidence shows hands down that God above all else loves diversity.
KScurmudgeon
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Obama's agenda is and has always been to unite the country around our common interests. I predict that at ND he will praise the university as an America institution, say nice things about the role of Catholics and the Catholic Church in America, and seriously discuss the moral and personal issues concerned with the sanctity of human life, from conception and abortion, and child rearing, education, capital punishment, and the trend towards euthanasia of the elderly and ill. He will do this in a way that highlights the traditional Christian perspective as well as the struggles each issue involves for the individuals who must make these decisions.
He will unite, not divide, and he will leave everyone feeling they are in the company of fellow citizens who share their personal concern that America continue to reflect the principled compassion which is our nation's best nature. That's his goal, and he is good at saying what he means.
These quibbles, here, in the Church, and in the country and world, are about pride and self-importance. They won't produce good.
KScurmudgeon
who sees through it
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#24,
I guess that then we have to expect hordes of islamic homosexuals invading the US? :) . Hmm, but them homosexuality and islam do not mix well either...
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I'm still wondering where Justin was coming from. The idea of violence on the campus of Notre Dame seems so unlikely as to be ridiculous. It's very conservative as American universities go, and as such I'd expect law and order to rule the day.
The university aside, I've never thought of Catholics being slightest bit violent (I am married to one so I'm biased), but then it occurs to me that Justin is British, and I'd guess the Brits have a different perspective than we do.
I don't think Bishops and Archbishops have a lot of power in America. I'm not saying they're disrespected, far from it, but I think they're looked to for spiritual guidance, rather than political guidance.
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24, all4USA.
"He is just startting with Catholics. His problem is with abortion which catholics and christians oppose...."
Whoa! Stop righ there! Christian churches may oppose abortion. What individual Christians believe is quite another matter.
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Man, reading #24 makes me want to point out that while I disagree with some of Obama's domestic policies and appointments, I do not think that he is at war with my Church. I would also like to reiterate what I said on an earlier blog by Justin that I think it's ok for students to protest Obama, but that I think disinviting him would be excessive. I know I would jump at the opportunity to hear the President of the United States speak, no matter what I think of him and his policies.
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32, Andy.
"I've never thought of Catholics being slightest bit violent...."
Catholics are not usually as fanatical as some of the Protestant sects. They tend to take digma with a grain of salt.
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#17 AndyPost: Thanks for the invite; I'll take you up on that.
#25 glenbarrington: I agree with you wholeheartedly that abortion is murder, but I doubt that Obama speaking at a commencement ceremony "WILL promote abortion." What it will promote, especially at a predominantly pro-life institution, is respectful dialogue about the issue, which is the University President's goal.
#30 KScurmudgeon: "These quibbles, here, in the Church, and in the country and world, are about pride and self-importance. They won't produce good." - Well said. Randall Terry, a radical anti-abortionist, recently threatened to turn our campus "into a circus" on commencement day. Although his intention might be help people, his means appear to be entirely self-serving. Standing up for your beliefs is one thing; overshadowing the achievements of two thousand students to do so is something entirely different...
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#23. AndreainNY: "One in four American voters is Catholic."
I cannot find a source which verifies that statement, but in my search I came across this article in Religion Dispatches which you and others may care to read. From what the author writes, it appears that this is not quite the straightforward issue which you suggest.
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Justin,
"Notre Dame as the Kent State de nos jours?" ?
I doubt very much if four students will be shot dead and nine others injured!
I see two main themes in this story:
The first is people/groups testing the mettle of the new president, to find out exactly what kind of ground they are now standing on. Especially people who are worried how they might have done as a result of the recent election (strident religious people, Iranian and North-Korean leaders, Dick Cheney, etc).
Secondly, I think the Catholic Church (or maybe just this pope) has decided that they have fallen behind current 'best-practice' in terms of marketing themselves. Especially so in the United States where they've had a hard time of it in the press in recent years, and where revenue-generating ideas have been well exploited by other churches.
Obviously abortion is a long standing (expressed) concern in the Catholic Church, but as someone pointed out above, Catholics have long found ways to reconcile their own lives with the edicts that are handed down. (My own parents seemed to have been remarkably fortunate with the time between the births of their children.)
I think the Catholic Church is just trying to play catch-up, in a slightly ham-fisted manner.
We should just let them get on with it and not pay to much attention.
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#29, KS, I agree with you about diversity. And, just as GM succeeded during
the 20th century by creating new brands to fill every niche of the market,
the man upstairs in the special robe is basically doing the same thing
with religions, in an attempt to customize his message for different cultures.
However, I still hope that it turns out better than Walmart.
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#24, all4USA, perhaps you would care to comment on this article.
I'm not really sure how to interpret it. Like so many of Obama's actions,
he demonstrates a political intelligence which surpasses my ability to
comprehend his position on an issue.
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AndyPost (#32), No, I don't think the British do have a different perspective on Catholics.
I was 'brought-up' as 'Catholic' in England, with a goodly number of family/relatives from Ireland, Scotland and England.
As a card-carrying atheist in the Richard Dawkins mold, I can say that I never felt it was a problem saying that I was Catholic, or that I went to a Catholic school.
I guess Prince Charles would have been forbidden to marry me and still remain heir-to-the-throne.
But somehow, that doesn't concern me in the slightest. In fact I'm rather relieved.
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The link I posted seems to have disappeared, but basically, according
to the Washington Post, Barack Obama seems to have consistently opposed
bills banning partial-birth abortion by voting "present" in the Illinois
legislature, which is apparently equivalent to voting "no."
I don't know whether these bills took into consideration the life
of the mother.
I'll try to find another link.
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#32. AndyPost: "I don't think Bishops and Archbishops have a lot of power in America. I'm not saying they're disrespected, far from it, but I think they're looked to for spiritual guidance, rather than political guidance."
They have used their pulpits to tell congregants how to vote so I can't see how you can make such a statement with a straight face.
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You would think that people at Notre Dame and American Catholics would have more pressing things to worry about, like, for example the Fighting Irish's woeful performance of late on the gridiron. 15 losses in 2 seasons is surely a much greater threat to His Will than piddling sideshow issues like stem cells or abortion.
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bdroste @ 16,
'Thousands of students here are the sons and daughters of sons and daughters of ND graduates, who were probably sons and daughters of ND grads themselves'
Do I spot a pattern here? There are other academic institutions in the USA, you know.
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Justin "American religion - or more precisely the American approach to religion, as a set of choices in a spiritual market-place - is being exported successfully around the world"
I'm not sure that the idea of choice in religion is a particularly American one. Indian Hindus have a choice of deities and I imagime that although people would have a special devotion to one they would be able to choose which one and also to turn to any of the others if they felt that that particular god would be helpful in their current circumstances. Similarly I understand that Chinese religion is a mix of different infulences and someone can turn to whatever aspect of that spirituality you find helpful at any time. The Catholic Chruch in turn has a pantheon of saints that a believer can invoke. By contrast evangelical christianity teaches that there is only one true path and so presents only one choice - believe or not.
You're all doing very well !!
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On the subject of evangelical christianity I have a question to which I have not found a satisfactory answer so perhaps someone can enlighten me....
According to evangelicals thanks to original sin we are all born in a state of sin and can only be saved by God's grace and not by any work of our own. There is only one way to be saved and go to heaven - to believe in Jesus and accept him as your saviour. My concern is this ... imagine someone who has never heard of Jesus...someone who is in a remote part of the world or someone who may have heard that people elesewhere are christian but has no knowledge of what that means - just as most outside Japan don't know much about shinto except that it exists...or someone who lived in say what is present day Idaho in 1400AD. Those people can not claim Jesus as saviour because they are ignorant about him - they don't know he exists but they are in a state of sin from the moment they are concieved and so must be condemed to hell for all eternity. It just seems unfair to punish someone without giving that individual the chance for redemption - yet God is just. However if He can extent his forgiving grace to this person without them embracing Jesus then there is a way to salvation without Jesus .....
Can any theologians out there square the circle in an acceptable way...?
You're all doing very well !!
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37. David_Cunard:
"I cannot find a source which verifies that statement, but in my search I came across this article in Religion Dispatches which you and others may care to read. From what the author writes, it appears that this is not quite the straightforward issue which you suggest."
************************
Yes, that statistic (1 in 4 American voters is Catholic) was a surprise. I remember going to the source and being satisified. I can no longer remember the source. I cannot find the figure now, which makes me wonder about it.
There is nothing simple about Catholic voters, who run the gamut from non-practicing to weekly reconciliation attendees and have liberals and conservatives within each practicing or non-practicing group.
One interesting tidbit from Pew Research (7/15/08):
"The belief that Obama is Muslim, however, appears to have virtually no effect on Republican voters -- who overwhelmingly support McCain in any case. But Democrats who share the misperception are significantly less likely to support Obama.
In the latest survey conducted by the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press, 12% say Obama is Muslim, virtually unchanged from 10% in March. This misperception is not limited to voters who oppose Obama. Identical percentages of Republicans and Democrats (12% each) think he is Muslim, and the link between views of Obama's religion and their candidate choice vote is strongest among Democrats."
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/898/belief-that-obama-is-muslim-is-bipartisan-but-most-likely-to-sway-democrats
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45. Isenhorn:
"bdroste @ 16,
'Thousands of students here are the sons and daughters of sons and daughters of ND graduates, who were probably sons and daughters of ND grads themselves'
Do I spot a pattern here? There are other academic institutions in the USA, you know."
*********************************
If there is a pattern, why is this necessarily a bad thing?
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#47
It's due to something I like to call religous fallacy. There are many contradictions in any religion (except buddhism - which totally rocks!). The God in the old testament, for example, is completely different to the God portrayed in the new testament. Jesus was an awesome guy from what I have read (Gospels), I don't care if he was the son of God or not, his message was good.
It's the way extremists and evangelicals (I see very little difference between those two groups) interpret, or are told to view, the content of religous texts that is the cause of problems. Muslim women have to cover up their entire body from a simple line saying "dress modestly". I would take that to mean don't go around in your underwear, but extremists like to assume it means hide yourself away.
#24
Big fat LOL at you.
Re abortion, obviously it is a tough subject. I would be appauled if it were to ever become a decision easily disregarded. The destruction of a fetus should never be taken lightly. Having said that, a pregnant woman without a means to support the child, and perhaps even love, I feel should have the option of abortion available. If the child was to be bought up at the expense of the mother's future, as well as the child living in poor conditions and with a unhappy life, abortion seems like a viable, if unlpeasant, option.
The real thing, howeverm is that prevention is better than abortion. Improve contraception, advocate it more.
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inciting others to hatred ought to be curtailed.
Inciting people to murder babies should be curtailed! so is this a hate crime against unborn babies?
No Christian church incites anyone to 'hate' homosexuals neither does the Bible incite anyone to 'hate' homosexuals. The church says its wrong. Which it is. Even animals know its wrong. Perhaps one needs to observe an abortion to know it is wrong. How would you like the brain of someone sucked out? maybe we should 'harvest' people for their organs too? if you dont want a baby dont have sex! Also I have listened to Obama he does use political and legalistic terms to make people think he is smart so that people automatically agree with him. He said 'the reason why people disagree with my ideas is because they (ideas) dont make sense'. If Bush had said this we would all have said he (Bush) was stupid but because this man uses complex words we all think he is brilliant.
Freedom of speech means I should be free to say what I like: its a all or none. One cannot say this is hate and this is not. Who is righteous enough to make that decision?
maybe you will argue that Christians do it - but 'NO' we dont. We merely repeat what is in the Bible b/c we are not righteous to make decisions we use a standard moral code.
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Anyone read Philip Pulman's 'Dark Materials' trilogy? Strikes me it might be a good idea. (I saw the stage version at the National theatre in London, and found it was full of hundreds of schoolkids. It's on the school syllabus here in the UK.)
Interesting, that.
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#51
"We merely repeat what is in the Bible b/c we are not righteous to make decisions we use a standard moral code"
No, you merely repeat what you INTERPRET from the bible. You can still get it wrong.
"Freedom of speech means I should be free to say what I like: its a all or none"
No, it doesn't. You aren't allowed to go around calling people rude names, because they have a right to not hear that. There is a limit to what you can say.
"The church says its wrong. Which it is. Even animals know its wrong."
Why is it wrong? What do you mean even the animals know it is wrong? There are many documented cases of animals commiting homosexual acts, most notabley dolphins, who you can argue are one of the most intelligent species on Earth. Humans being the smartest. Yourself somewhere between.
Your lack of tolerance is awful. Jesus never said anything about homosexuals, so I'm sure if it was an important issue the son of God would have made sure it was written down.
"Also I have listened to Obama he does use political and legalistic terms to make people think he is smart "
I'm sorry long words confuse you. Generally people that use long words understand what they mean. If you think the use of these words is an attempt to make him seem smart, I can only assume it is because you don't understand them yourself. Obama is smarter than the average person, no doubt.
For the record, no one is saying that abortion is a pleasant choice. It sohuld always be a hard decision. And I agree if your silly enough to get pregnant its your own fault - dont have sex our wear protection, take the pill etc. But the chances are if you don't have an abortion, and the child wasn't planned, then it won't necessarily have the life it deserves, and the mother will also miss out on alot that life has to offer.
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I must confess that I am a bit perplexed by Justin's focus on an issue that most Americans consider irrelevant to the circumstances we are in or the daunting challenges we are facing as a nation and as a progressive society.
If the inference is that President Obama may lose one of his most loyal voting blocks because of his position on abortion, I have to disagree with that premise. Barack Obama's position was well known before Election Day and that didn't refrain Hispanics, Catholic or otherwise, from voting for him. Most importantly, Hispanics, like most other ethnic groups in the USA, are not an homogenous group whose preferences, values, and actions are driven by a single issue or the opinion of their spiritual leaders.
There are, indeed, some segments of the electorate whose voting record is influenced by issues ranging from abortion, to gay marriage, fiscal discipline and other subjects, but most of us look at the entire package and vote accordingly.
With the exception of Cuban-Americans, Hispanics remain overwhelmingly Democratic and I doubt their party affilition or support for President Obama will change anytime soon because of whatever academics and students at Notre Dame say or do during President Obama's address. Moreover, I am convinced ND will give the President an enthusiastic or, as a minimum, a polite welcome consistent with what would be afforded to any US President. This is a non-issue.
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I haven't waded in previously on this one: my husband's family is Catholic to the newest baby and mine is a vast melange of practically everything there can be, including pagans, gays and atheists and those who remain silent about their lifestyles and their beliefs simply to preserve the peace at Thanksgiving gatherings. My point here is that we've been married for 30 years and my parents (Jewish and Southern Baptist) were married for over 50. We simply expand the meaning of the word "family" when it becomes necessary and move on from there. One's business with God, Goddess or Mystery is -- and always will be -- private.
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The most damaging aspect of Obama's "Freedom of Choice Act" (FOCA) is that it actually removes the freedom of choice from part of the equation, i.e., the medical profession. This group will have its freedom of choice to NOT perform abortions removed entirely, to the extent that any doctor or nurse that refuses to commit this act of murder on ethical/religious grounds faces the prospect of being removed from their respective medical registers. If you regard THIS as "Freedom of Choice", you are definitely barking up the wrong tree!!!
As a newly converted Roman Catholic, I could be referred to as "unusually biased", but I retain my opinions from an earlier existence in the Anglican/Episcopal Communion. If you don't want kids, don't have unprotected sex. If you get pregnant, have it adopted - there are literally millions of people queueing up to adopt your "excess" children.
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#51
How do you truly know if anythings wrong if you 'merely repeat what is in the Bible'. Surely you need to search your own conscience (or soul if you prefer) and weigh these things up. Not just blindly follow a 2000 year old doctrine thats been watered down through translation and political manipulation. Have you heard of Chinese whispers? Try that over a couple of thousand years and see how close to the original source you are.
But at least those animals know right from wrong...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/homosexuality_in_animals
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Notre Dame has a history of discrimination issues (race, religion, age, sexual orientation) - their non-discrimination policy explicity omits reference to discrimination based on religious or sexual orientation. Despite being exclusively privately funded, their license to educate requires them to comply with US and State laws. The church, if it wants to run a University in the US, will have to back off.
http://magazine.nd.edu/news/10656
http://www.nd.edu/~equity/diversity/Non-DiscriminationClause.shtml
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7. Richard_SM wrote:
"As Henry VIII observed, "Where in the Bible does it say anything about a Pope?""
An interesting point.
The Coptic Egyptian Christians also use the title Pope for their head priest - descended they believe from St Mark.
The bible may or may not mention the word, but either way it has been used and claimed by many christian leaders over the early centuries of christianity.
This information is taken from the online etymological dictionary....
"O.E. papa, from M.L. papa "bishop, pope" (in classical L., "tutor"), from Gk. papas "patriarch, bishop," originally "father."
Applied to bishops of Asia Minor and taken as a title by the Bishop of Alexandria c.250.
In Western Church, applied especially to the Bishop of Rome since the time of Leo the Great (440-461) and claimed exclusively by them from 1073."
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Please let us not have this thread turn into a repeat of the pro- or anti-abortion debate.
The issue is whether catholics at ND can look beyond one single issue which they feel strongly about to see the big picture of what Obama can do.
My understanding of christianity is that it involves a lot of care for the poor and needy, as well as turning the other cheek and doing unto others as you would be done unto .... and so on.
While many chrisitans of all donominations feel strongly about abortion, the USA now has a President whose primary policies involve improving the lots of the least well off in society and opening dialogue with enemies in order to try to prevent conflict.
These should be big picture aims of christians. The idea that Obama is not worth hearing because SOME catholics disagree with him on a single issue is ludicrous, and makes a mockery of their university.
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# 51 all4USA wrote:
"No Christian church incites anyone to 'hate' homosexuals neither does the Bible incite anyone to 'hate' homosexuals. The church says its wrong. Which it is. Even animals know its wrong."
Not sure about that. I had a chat with my cat, and it seems he holds no strong views on the subject - though he does wonder whether Gays might find so-called 'civil unions' an acceptable substitute for gay marriage.
Perhaps Bere's cat could add to the debate?
'How would you like the brain of someone sucked out?'
Well, I certainly wouldn't like it if it happened to me.
Was it a painful experience for you?
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56. At 1:21pm on 23 Apr 2009, gordonclifford wrote:
. If you don't want kids, don't have unprotected sex. If you get pregnant, have it adopted - there are literally millions of people queueing up to adopt your "excess" children."
I am sure women are gratefull for this advice as to what they do with their own bodies.
Just a question. What if you get pregnant to someone who then promptly dissapears after understaking to maintain their responsibilities?
Women do not make themselves pregnant do they?
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Saint One (50),
- "There are many contradictions in any religion (except buddhism - which totally rocks!). The God in the old testament, for example, is completely different to the God portrayed in the new testament. Jesus was an awesome guy from what I have read (Gospels), I don't care if he was the son of God or not, his message was good."
Seconded in all respects!All4USA (51),
- "No Christian church incites anyone to 'hate' homosexuals neither does the Bible incite anyone to 'hate' homosexuals. The church says its wrong. Which it is. Even animals know its wrong."
Better tell that to my dog.Complain about this comment
56. gordonclifford wrote:
"The most damaging aspect of Obama's "Freedom of Choice Act" (FOCA) is that it actually removes the freedom of choice from part of the equation, i.e., the medical profession. This group will have its freedom of choice to NOT perform abortions removed entirely, to the extent that any doctor or nurse that refuses to commit this act of murder on ethical/religious grounds faces the prospect of being removed from their respective medical registers."
This is actually a fair point IMO. I am an atheist, and resolutely pro-choice, but not at all pro-abortion - my position is not to deny others their CHOICE.
I would not force medical professionals to perform an abortion if it conflicted with their beliefs .... although quite why they would have specialised in that branch of medicine is beyond me. Or do all doctors in the USA take turns?
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Your 2nd point
"If you get pregnant, have it adopted - there are literally millions of people queueing up to adopt your "excess" children."
Do you have any idea how hard it is to adopt a child in the west? Why do you think people go to Russian, China, South America, Malawi ;-)
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#51
'If you don't want a baby don't have sex'.
God gave humans the joy of sex. Should we miss out on that and defy God's will?
Going straight to Hell for that one.
I for one shall be having as much as possible as an insurance policy against eternal damnation.
Kinky Sam
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Regarding Freedom of Choice Act introduced 2004 - read it, link attached. It is not 'Obama's' and it does not authorize punitive action againt doctors who prefer not to practice in the field. Jeesh if you have a real point to make be honest!
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:S.2020:
Also if the Notre Dame issue is not religious, but political, then the church and school risk losing tax exempt status under the law.
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Justin: Excellent post, and cogent thoughts. I'll be buying that book, by the way. The real downside of the American marketplace religious post-denominational approach, however, is that each little congregation can become its own little 'cult', and moral hazard stalks the halls of those churches. Lots of tales to tell, but this is not the place to tell them.
The President has no complaint vis-a-vis the response of American Catholics: When he legislatively protected the practice of allowing live babies to die because they had the bad taste to be born alive during an abortion procedure, he placed himself in an adversarial position to Catholics of all persuasions.
Himself is a very deliberate guy when it comes to this sort of thing--he knew what he was doing in his role in the Illinois Senate.
He just can't claim to be a victim now. That job is already occupied by some un-named children.
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32 andy.. Not all brits think like Justin. or all ex brits.
Agreed where is he coming from. How come no link to the nice folk like Mr 16 bdroste with that well put piece.
aqll this talk on both these threads on excommunication.
Where does that come from.
Does the Pope sit in Rome saying. Hey that guy is to be excommunicated. (Surely not after confession though).
NO
Can one person produce a link to the edict from the pope excommunicating people for allowing others to make a choice?
NO
(well I'm waiting lets see if one appears, I'll believe it when I see it.
I could see them saying MAYBE, MAY or some other non definitive word, but not must or will .
There seems to be much confusion as to the RC church.
I was brought up catholic. confirmed catholic my catholic boarding school never bothered us with an anti abortion talk. We said a hail mary in the evening and had roll call. Church on Sunday. Not religious indoctrination.
I went to church with MA.( American catholic who said Death penalty is SO wrong she would prefer not to live here.)
See conviction.
I have NO problem with catholics. I understand that the Pope make ruling on the morallity of things like , abortion is a sin. It is not right.
Sin is a bit strong , not right is OK.
Not right but necessary maybe the case.
Given the confessional where murderers are allowed to give confession. A guy who kills 200 people for dinner can speak to a priest etc.
Can go to church.(hopefully in jail)
but a mother that said OK to their daughter who was in a loving enough relationship with Ma to discuss it(small blessing) is to be excommunicated.
That Obama should be shunned ?
Bull
When was the last time they shunned a President at ND?
If I were a woman and pregnant.
old joke here but if I was pregnant I would get a big TV deal and be rich for life. So I could say yes.But that wouldn't work as a plan for most women.
Anyway, the RC church has a lot of failings. as any institution and entity, if we are honest about it.
why expect it to be so perfect, it is people.
They teach No War.
They teach Giving
they teach a way of peace
they teach as most churches do. Peace.
and as for hey Zeus ,, he seemed pretty OK from the stories, nice stuff. shame so many can't understand even the basics because they are looking so closely at every word as opposed to the themes the reoccur in the bit about Zeus.
Who are the people making up the rubbish here about the catholics. But they do about every other religion, so that's OK.
but it is just as wrong.
Americans separate in your minds the world and america.
The same for UK wherever.
Not all catholics are the same. and the american model that is spreading is the same as so many other america ways.
by using wealth (stolen from poor countries) to tell them what to do.(like a religion in itself)(note where did Rome get all that grandeur).
religion is fine
Put america into it and" we have a problem Houston."
The american missionaries around the world doing good but staying FOCUSED. is a zeal that scares.
At least the rest just get drunk and argue that God is not a Chicken that lays golden eggs, He is a roster and that is why it is exceptional,hic
Justin Are you a Catholic?
Has American religion got you?
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#51. all4USA: "No Christian church incites anyone to 'hate' homosexuals."
Your ignorance is appalling - have you never heard of Westboro Baptist Church? They are as hateful as one can get - and are not the only collection of bigots masquerading as "loving Christians".
"The church says its wrong."
Not all of Christianity and its many churches agree with that wide sweeping statement. And the Bible, which you mention, includes a catalogue of proscribed actions, most of which are ignored; I suppose you cut your hair or eat pork and shellfish, both of which are also considered to be "abominations". As a Christian, you should know that Christ never mentioned the subject but extolled his followers to 'love one another'.
"Freedom of speech means I should be free to say what I like: its a all or none. One cannot say this is hate and this is not."
So you would have skinheads ranting about Jews and suggesting a fate for them as happened in Germany? Or demented Muslim preachers urging their followers to kill others in the name of their deity? If passed (again) The Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act would make such actions subject to prosecution by the Justice Department; happily the President has said he would sign it into law, unlike his predecessor, who vetoed it.
#61. john-In-Dublin: "Was it a painful experience for you? "
That made me laugh out loud - so succinct; I wish I had have thought of it!
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52, british -
I've read Pullman's trilogy; found it compelling. It's controversial here and you'd never find it in a school curriculum. Some churches were telling their sheep to shun the film, as they had been told the shun the books.
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Ref. 43 David
"They have used their pulpits to tell congregants how to vote so I can't see how you can make such a statement with a straight face."
Yes, I believe that's true, but from what I can gather, they're often ignored. Thus my straight face.
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58: " ... license to educate ... "?
Where do you get that?
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Ref. 52, British-ish
"Anyone read Philip Pulman's 'Dark Materials' trilogy? Strikes me it might be a good idea."
Would you give those of us who've never heard of this work (like me) a reason why it's a good idea? What does it deal with?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
53, SaintOne - "f your silly enough to get pregnant its your own fault"
Not fair. No artificial form of birth control is 100% effective. Do you really advocate that those who don't want children should never have sex?
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41 frog star well said.
can I ask how many anti abortion lectures you had to sit through at school?
61 SBBL says" screw it can you eat it?""does it run? goodee"
64 stu lol when I read the quote in your piece it seemed strange that a brain surgeon would be asked to perform an abortion.
" Go on do it,, you do it or we'll ban you, CUT. get on with it or we will water board you."
20 bein you say this whole row has hardly any air time. well good it is a bunch of stirring.
If eco demonstrator agitated as the likes of Justin are then they would be facing bullets.
51 all4 usa.
doing your country proud.
make the world Ideal then start to debate abortion, until the world is so ideal give it up.
48 Our ninny from NY
you quote " "The belief that Obama is Muslim, however, appears to have virtually no effect on Republican voters -- who overwhelmingly support McCain in any case. But Democrats who share the misperception are significantly less likely to support Obama."
DUH
people that are racist enough to believe that a guy called hussain must be muslim don't vote for him.GOP or DEM. The GOP muslim believers were able to LIE and say "I'm not racist". more common " I just don't like him and I'm voting for MC Cain anyway,I'm A GOPper."
"But Democrats who share the misperception are significantly less likely to support Obama"
It is not as if the republicans that believed he was muslims did either,
Have you a link to where you quoted this from.
Seems like a very stupid poll.
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61, john-in-Dublin -
I posed that question to my cat. He responded, "Isn't it time for dinner?" Perhaps he didn't understand the long words I used to formulate my question.
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#75
A combination of condoms + pills must be almost 100% effective. It's what my partner and I do. If you don't use at least one or the other than it is your own fault...(not including rape, of course)
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Andreain NY @49
'If there is a pattern, why is this necessarily a bad thing?'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is not necessarily a bad thing, however IMHO it sort of explains the unwillingness of the people at ND to listen to, let alone accept views differing from theirs.
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"As a Notre Dame student, a practicing Roman Catholic, and an avid Obama supporter...I just hope we can get past all that and focus on the fact that the President will be coming to honor the graduating class of 2009, not to perform abortions..." #16
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Obama supports infanticide. Four times he voted against the Born Alive Protection Act while in the Illinois State Senate. The law would have required doctors to provide medical treatment to babies that survived abortion or any other newborn in need of care instead of shelving them in a closet to die. Obama is also trying to pass laws that would require Catholic doctors and hospitals to perform abortions.
President Obama doesn't deserve to be awarded an honorary degree from a Catholic university. Even Arizona State University isn't awarding him an honorary degree. He doesn't deserve a free platform to speak unchallenged; it's not like he is participating in a roundtable discussion or debate.
Nevertheless, the president was invited so he should speak, but it's funny how all the abortion supporters claiming free speech want pro-life Catholics to shut up and not say anything.
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69 DC well said on the hate bill.
63. At 2:47pm on 23 Apr 2009, Hesiodos wrote:
Saint One (50),
"There are many contradictions in any religion (except buddhism - which totally rocks!). The God in the old testament, for example, is completely different to the God portrayed in the new testament. Jesus was an awesome guy from what I have read (Gospels), I don't care if he was the son of God or not, his message was good
-----
I'd say he was better than his father, as portrayed in the OT.
Ninny your poll suggests that across both parties 10 % of americans are racist idiots.
I doubt anyone will disagree with that.
Are you in the Minority.
DC Thanks for that religious dispatch.
maybe the American version of the RC church has a hope.
As long as they buy Candlesticks from me I won't care.
Sorry Got to throw in I am not a Catholic. just brought up that way.
46 YMG
the only issue being exported is the anti abortion issue. America does not export any other religious value to the world and shun ones many others have.
With out the issue of abortion what contribution does american religious doctrin have.
there is no other issue.
Or Again I will believe it when I see it. Justins angle is again as strange as justin on this topic.
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Interesting posts today. SamTyler69 - are you sure you're not our old bass player?
The truth is, we're all just chimpanzees trying to get along. Let's cut ourselves some slack.
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80 seems the pro life catholics have a problem with other catholics.
Funny I know pro life catholics that feel the issue is given more importance than the rest of the churche's teaching.
the one you quoted may be of that mold.
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funny bere your cat thinks like mine.;)
FOOD
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The world should realize the Catholic Church is a major contributor to the world population explosion. They totally ignor the fact their policies on contraception and abortion are assisting in the degradation and starvation of untold millions. Not to mention the fact of more people more environmental disasters heading our way.
Mr Obama, I wish you every success in your fight against these religeous extremists
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#80 Billy2USA - "He doesn't deserve a free platform to speak unchallenged; it's not like he is participating in a roundtable discussion or debate...Nevertheless, the president was invited so he should speak..."
The President is going to be the keynote speaker at a commencement ceremony. He has every right to speak unchallenged. He is not going to stand up there and prove to everybody that abortion is perfectly fine. He is much more intelligent than that. He is going give a very eloquent and inspirational speech about his thoughts on life, leadership, etc., just as all keynote speakers do at commencement ceremonies everywhere. He was invited as a leader and he is being honored for his achievements as such.
As far as the degree goes, is it more problematic for ND to bestow an honorary degree on a pro-abortion individual or a real degree on a pro-abortion individual? Which really carries the greater weight? I'd certainly argue that it's the latter. Yet countless pro-abortion, non-Christian, homosexual, etc. people have graduated and will continue to graduate from the University with legitimate degrees (and ND is all the better for having their different views). Should the University start rejecting all students who aren't Catholic?
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Facts are Facts
* An 11-year old girl who was raped by her Catholic priest and became pregnant. The Catholic priest took her in for an abortion.
Link provided if posted and active, scroll down or read down to get to the good stuff.
http://www.snapnetwork.org/legal_courts/stories/pa_grand_jury_criticizes_archdiocese.htm
I revealed this information on a live tv show. You could feel the hate come in from Pennsylvanian Catholics when the phone lines were opened for LIVE CALLS! Ouch!
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How does any of this matter? Haven't you heard? The "end time" is coming soon. 2012 is the latest "drop-dead date" in a two century long, long, long list of other such dates.
Except for a choosen few (150,000 seems to be the going number) the rest of us are outta here! Worm poop! Fly nuseries! Ash heaps!
Let's party, Dudes!
Joe Six-pack End-of-the-World Party (BYOB, set-ups provided)
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Secretive men in long dresses who sit in little boxes to hear your sins for the day, ruled from its own city in Rome, that decrees that the Pope is Christ's representative on Earth, who have as an icon a virgin no less that gave birth to Jesus, whilst at the same time these men abstain from sex and don't get married. Ideal people to advise on life and urge the population to procreate like rabbits when the population growth on earth could do with some restrictions.
It's the most incongruous religion on earth and if the numbers are falling, take a look at their righteous infiltration of the African continent and see how they keep themselves ungainfully employed.
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piffle piffle waffle waffle
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*% america under Bush invested in abstinance only and would not help programs that gave out condoms.
just as the church did.
shame isn't it.
sensible student from institution under the spotlight asks
"Should the University start rejecting all students who aren't Catholic?"
I would answer that to some it seems only catholics against abortion are allowed in.
good post
and yes the bigger issue for the world was the dunkie debate.
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@69(Cunard): I must take exception to your stance.
The reason we have freedom of speech, and press, and religion in the First Amendment is precisely because the Founders understood all too well what happens when governments can control speech, or the press, or religion. Inevitably all such laws (including the ones put on our books in a moment of dumb, dumber, and dumbest childish misjudgment) become weapons to oppress portions of the population. It happened in their time, and wherever re-instituted here, it will happen again. Human nature guarantees it.
I hear and read (some on this list) many insults directed toward conservatives and Christians. Should those be outlawed because they hurt me, or because they are not true, or both? Of course not. While it might be momentarily helpful to me for that to happen, it oppresses those who hold those beliefs. That makes it WRONG! The same is true of the expression of any other belief, no matter how much you or I agree or disagree with it. If we start selectively suppressing beliefs (which is what "hate speech" laws do), that process never, ever, ever stops, and it ALWAYS mestastasizes to suppressing other things as well.
Folks have to understand that THE LAW DOESN'T EXIST TO MAKE US MORAL BEINGS. It cannot and will not achieve that result. What it does is set boundaries on our ACTIONS.
A lot of folks pull up the "shouting FIRE in a theater" as a justification for "hate speech" laws. They do so carelessly without sifting the differences. In the "fire" example, a person is using speech to trigger an immediate, involuntary fight-or-flight response from a group of folks in a (relatively) confined space. Ruling that, or things like that, as unprotected speech is not wrong, because a person is taking advantage of an essentially-involuntary human response to create mayhem. "Hate speech" laws, on the other hand, ostensibly attempt to deal with VOLUNTARY responses to speech. For example, some guys says, "Let's go kill this xxx" and so the mob goes and lynches the xxx. Who's really at fault here? The guy who says what he does? Or the mob that ACTS? Mature adults know that it's the MOB that's at fault, because NOTHING ANYONE SAYS IS EVER AN EXCUSE FOR CRIMINAL ACTION. "Hate speech" laws, at their very best, are an attempt to excuse individuals or groups for not maintaining self-discipline. At their worst, they are an attempt to use the power of the state to elevate some ideology or other, and in that role they are absolutely antithetical to the principles that the United States, at least, rests on.
There's a big difference betweeen saying, "You are doing xxx, and that's sinful; God is going to send you to Hell over that", and saying, "You are doing xxx, and that's sinful; God is going to send you to Hell over that, and I'M GOING TO HELP HIM." The first is protected speech, and should be. The second crosses the line into intent to commit a crime.
We don't need a "hate speech" law, nor do we need a "hate crime" law. All crime is hate crime. What we need, and should insist on, is open, rigorous, ruthless enforcement of the laws we already have. Hold folks squarely and ruthlessly accountable for their ACTIONS, but leave their expressions of belief alone!
Don't insult the Founders' wisdom on this issue! This is not about technology, or geographic boundaries, or other things that have changed over time. This is about unchanging human nature, and they understood it as well as anyone, and better than almost everyone. The beauty of the Constitution reflects this.
If there's anyone in this country that's not mature enough to understand this and support it, they'd better wise up in a hurry. Tampering in any way with the First Amendment is the fastest way I can imagine to destroy this country.
Seeing that this forum supports free speech (at least to some extent) I expect disagreement. That's welcome; I hope as you disagree you will do so on the basis of facts and logic rather than opinions and emotions...
Regards to all. Sorry for the longish post.
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^ I would answer to the outsiders-looking-in that everyone is allowed in, but the University certainly attracts its own demographic, just as many private institutions do. The Muslim down the hall from me might not fit the mold at ND just as a Catholic at a historically non-Catholic school wouldn't fit the mold. Both, however, are allowed, and that's a pretty important component to a University.
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Diana (89),
- "Ideal people to advise on life and urge the population to procreate like rabbits when the population growth on earth could do with some restrictions."
More than a little restriction needed. This morning's dawn greeted an extra 219,000 souls (after allowing for those who shuffled off their mortal coils)Vaya con Gaia
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Ref 51, All4USA
"Even animals know its wrong."
Nonsense. Animals engage in homosexual activity all the time. Ducks (esp. mallards who also seem to enjoy gang rape), apes, lions, penguins, cattle, and many more. It's very common.
Right and wrong is a human construct. Animals have no concept of ethics or morals. Take my cat. He is the worst kind of psychopath. He just loves torturing small defenseless animals to death, and he has no qualms about it at all. His only problem is that his "toys" don't last long enough.
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The issue with the Catholic Church is not that Obama is speaking at the Commencement, but that he will be honored with a honorary law degree, this is in direct violation of the USCCB's statement on the issue of higher education as a CATHOLIC INSTITUTION. Obama's record for which he has never apologized for is in direct conflict with the moral teachings of the CATHOLIC CHURCH, and as such, CANNOT BE HONORED by a CATHOLIC INSTITUTION! This is what the problem is, and not what has been going around the media. This is a demonstration of the lack of integrity and research done my the typical media. Do your homework, there are plenty of public records of statements made by Bishop D'Arcy of the Southbend/Fort Wayne Diocese which is where Notre Dame resides that will demonstrate what I am saying.
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"countless pro-abortion, non-Christian, homosexual, etc. people have graduated and will continue to graduate from the University with legitimate degrees (and ND is all the better for having their different views)" #86
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Notre Dame is better for the countless Asian, European, and African students, as well as, the Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist and Protestant students who have attended the university.
Notre Dame is not better for having pro-abortionists graduate from the university. Don't kill unborn children; it's not a hard concession to make. http://standupgirl.com/web//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=77
Obama is in office for 1 day with the economy in collapse, and his first major act as president was to spend US tax money to harvest human embryos for research. A few weeks later he is spending more tax money funding overseas abortions. Your one issue president.
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"The President is going to be the keynote speaker at a commencement ceremony. He has every right to speak unchallenged" #86
No he doesn't, and I'm challenging him right on this blog and so are many others. Catholics are also protesting against the president of Notre Dame for giving Obama the free stage. Nobody is going to riot or interrupt his speech with air horns like Code Pink or the Leftists at the G20 or WTO.
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Ref. 64, RomeStu:
"...although quite why they would have specialised in that branch of medicine is beyond me."
I'm pretty sure that specialty is OB/GYN. There's a lot more to it than abortion.
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"The shortfall is made up, of course, by South American immigrants. Socially conservative immigrants."
Can bishops or the right rely on such immigrants remaining conservative? Developments in Latin America and voting patterns in higher-immigration states suggest not. With even Italians failing en masse to follow Church teaching on contraception, I can't see new Latino arrivals rescuing conservatism from its present sorry hole. But it'll be interesting.
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Apparently readers believe that any variation with Catholic doctrine makes one at war with the Catholic Church. This is why there is separation of Church and State. I think the chruch should be more concered about a bill that might prosecute pediofiles. Notre Dame University is a place of higher education not a cloister to indoctrinate the children of catholics. As the role of relgion diminishes in society the louded the cry will become, like the Taleban in Islam. People, accept responsibility for your own actions...in the end that is how your will be judged.
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88, publius, I must interrupt your ebullient mood to point out to you that 2012
may not be the end of the world, just of our world.
Remember the song about "partying like it's 1999?" They were all destroyed
by aliens, I saw the event in Independence Day.
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#72 - I am pretty sure each state's education department regulates private colleges, I think Illinois requires a certificate (110 I.S. Section 1005). If these church objections are political activity, and not a religious activity, then I think they risk losing tax exempt status.
#16 - The lack of cohesion is in the backlash of boycotts by church representatives, after the ND U made the invitation...lack of cohesion - not on the same page - internal disputes or maybe rebellion by the university.
hopefully all those involved will calm down and realize we can all have the strength and grace to listen to opposing (or maybe not so opposing after all) views in a polite and dignified manner - and let these kids have the great celebration they deserve
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frayedcat (#102), that (the Illinois statute) is unusual. Indiana does not seem to have any such statute seeking to regulate private colleges.
In any case, Notre Dame is not going to lose its tax-exempt status, and would not even if it were in Illinois.
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88. publiusdetroit wrote:
"How does any of this matter? Haven't you heard? The "end time" is coming soon. 2012 is the latest "drop-dead date" in a two century long, long, long list of other such dates."
Publius - does your augur tell whether the world will end before or after the London 2012 Olympics? The British are getting really worked up about budget overruns, and if the world is going to end before the games, we can just not stress about it!!!
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#92. arclightt: "I hear and read (some on this list) many insults directed toward conservatives and Christians. Should those be outlawed because they hurt me, or because they are not true, or both?"
There's a great difference between an insult and incitement to hatred - the pity is that you cannot see it.
"We don't need a "hate speech" law, nor do we need a "hate crime" law."
If that were the case, then why is The Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act (The Matthew Shepard Act) wending its way through Congress? Someone else besides myself must believe that we do need a law which prohibits "hate speech and "hate crimes".
"If we start selectively suppressing beliefs . . . that process never, ever, ever stops, and it ALWAYS mestastasizes (sic) to suppressing other things as well."
I found it ironic that you would use a word more commonly linked with cancer. Hate speech itself is a cancer on mankind and, like its biological counterpart, needs to excised.
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98. AndyPost wrote:
"Ref. 64, RomeStu:
"...although quite why they would have specialised in that branch of medicine is beyond me."
I'm pretty sure that specialty is OB/GYN. There's a lot more to it than abortion."
I know Andy - but surely a consultant obstetrician has the right not to perform abortions. As you say, there is alot more to Obs/Gyn than abortions.
Or do US hospitals dictate the operations a doctor performs. If you are an anti-abortion doctor, don't perform them - a colleague will do it.
I said in my post that I would not support forcing doctors to perform abortions against their belief. My pro-choice stance applies equally to doctor's right to choose.
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92, arclightt -
You make a very compelling argument. I wonder, though -- doesn't a line have to be drawn somewhere? This, for example: Suppose a person disapproves of the race of a family who moves next door. He erects a large sign in his yard (assuming this is not a subdivision with covenants against yard signs) displaying ugly racist epithets against the neighbor (but not actual threats). The neighbors (including children) must see this sign whenever they enter or leave their house or use their yard, and the sign will be in full view of other neighbors and anyone driving by.
Does this unpleasant person have a free speech right to have this sign, or does the neighbor, or the town, have the right to not have hate speech in everyone's face?
(I have made this up; as far as I know this hasn't actually happened but it is within the realm of possibility.)
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85, noworld.
"The world should realize the Catholic Church is a major contributor to the world population explosion."
Whenever I meet "devout" Catholics I often ask them how many children they have. (I have been asking this question, on and off, for 65 years.) I am one of five children. No one in the Newman Club (a Catholic organization) that some fellow students belonged had that big a family. I now have four children of my own. No Catholic I have met, save a couple, has that many. My family does not pratice a religion, by the way. We just like kids.
The power of the church is way overrated. If married couples have small families it is not because they practice abstinence or "rhytm." It is because they use contraception, and when they get careless, often opt for abortion, just like regular folks.
If the Catholic church is trawling in Africa for new members and the birthrate of those they capture is high, that is likely due to the socio-economic status of the Africans.
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There are right-wingers in America who think anything other than what they think is not only wrong but shouldn't be allowed to be spoken. These are similar to the fools of the French revolution, not that the revolution was foolish, but the ones who got all worked up and stormed the Bastille and ended up being turned on and guillotined by their leaders. These are the people who scream that it is unfair to tax the rich while they are thrown out of the trailers having lost their jobs.
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"The church" doesn't like homosexuals because of a potentially mistranslated section of Leviticus.
I read Leviticus, front to back, and discovered that every day is a good day to sacrifice an animal. If we're going with Leviticus in any form, we're going to revamp the economy by buying animals to burn. And we should, because God executes two people who burn the wrong incense for Him. So, apart from that brief period when Britain was making the Lord happy by burning all the cows (was Foot and Mouth the Lord's gentle reminder that we should bonfire our daily critter?), we've been failing to honour the Lord for all these years! No wonder the world's a mess! Christians have been neglectful in their duties!
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88, publius, on further consideration, it has occurred to me that
2012 may just be the end of your world, in which case I
would appreciate it if you could provide us with your itinerary on
the appointed day.
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Ref 101 gunsandreligion and 104 RomeStu
I can pop for the booze now that only some of us are getting offed by the aliens and others are going to be in London for the Olympics. I think they'll be missing out on a great time if they don't show.
Joe Six-pack End of the World Party
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112, publius, that sounds like a better deal. I might show up for the
booze in spite of your high projected mortality rate.
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The Catholic Church has been in China for 1,000 years and in that time converted 1% of the population. Chinese have always viewed that religion as intollerant.
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#103 Indiana Code § 20-1-1.2-2 or thereabout perhaps for state accreditation of non-public schools? Sorry - its not that I think all the midwest states are the same, sure they are all lovely. I was thinking the church could lose its tax exempt status for engaging in political activity, rather than the university...might help with the deficit...
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"I was thinking the church could lose its tax exempt status for engaging in political activity, ... "
It's not going to happen. Can you cite one case of a church losing its tax exempt status for comparison?
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Re 2012, generally: I don't suppose it's occurred to anyone that the reason the Mayan Calendar stops in 2012 is that someone simply decided "That's five thousand odd years of calendar...I think I'll knock off early and come back to this when we need a bit more"?
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110, Dark Side -
The truth at last revealed! Pretty funny. But I'm not going to tell my cat about this; it would upset him terribly, even if we start with cows. How long before we run out of cows and turn to cats?
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#82
I know you smoke
I know you drink that brew
I just can't abide a sinner like you, you know
God can't either, so i know it to be true
Jesus loves me, but he can't stand you
Going straight to heaven boys, when I die
Because I've crossed every 't' and dotted every 'i'
Why my preacher tells me I'm God's kinda guy, that's why
Jesus loves me, but you're gonna fry
God loves all his children by gum
That don't mean he won't incinerate some
can't you feel those hot flames licking you?
woo woo woooooo
I'm raising my kids in a righteous way
So don't you be bring your kids over to my house to play, why
Yours'll grow up stoned, left leaning and gay
I know, Jesus told me on the phone today
Jesus loves me this I know
And he told me where you're gonna go
Lots of room for your kind down below
Jesus loves me . . . .
Austin Sam
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'As Henry VIII observed, "Where in the Bible does it say anything about a Pope?" With apologies to the Jesuits who taught me: "Ad hoc petrum edificabum eglisium meum" Matthew 16:13-19
As a 40 year old practicing moderate R.C. I must say that no one quite gets it. Many of us are quite wiling to live and let live and conform our own lives according to our own principles. However,the radical social agenda has gone too far. We must not only be tolerant of gay marriage, abortion, etc, but we are slowly being forced to go along, by covering abortion in our health plans, performing it in our hospitals, by offering adoption to gay couples, etc. Sadly, being tolerant is not reciprocated. We either get on the bus or face censure, fines, penalties, etc. I ask: "Are madrassas, synagogues, etc asked, let alone forced, to do these things?" Obama sadly embodies this social agenda, as witnessed by his dreadful stem cell policy. Trust me, in 5 years young women in the Third World will be harvesting eggs for sale. Obama and his foes, when it comes to social matters, are of a "If you aren't with us, you're against us" mindset, which is as bad as G. W. Bush. Quite frankly, he has no business being invited to a Catholic institution.
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I doubt the average American will lose any sleep over what academics and students at Notre Dame or the Pope have to say about anything. What bothers many of us is when religion interferres with policy making, when it becomes a factor on the electability of a candidate, and the fact that organized religion enjoys a privilege denied to the rest of us: tax exemption. Religion is a multi-billion dollar business in America and there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why they should not pay taxes like every other business and individual tax payers.
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121, saintDominick -
I agree with you 100%.
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110 Dark Side.
If the Catholic church and other church groups consider homosexuality a sin, so be it. What does that have to do with anythng? They also consider abortion a sin. So what? Who says you have to be a Catholic?
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114, Cao.
"The Catholic Church has been in China for 1,000 years and in that time converted 1% of the population. Chinese have always viewed that religion as intollerant."
I have news for you. Every religion is inttolerant. That is the nature of the beast.
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" ... the fact that organized religion enjoys a privilege denied to the rest of us: tax exemption."
Lots of activities (in the US) are tax exempt. Non-profit activities need not be religious in nature to qualify for tax exemption.
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Ref. 121, Dominick
"Religion is a multi-billion dollar business in America and there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why they should not pay taxes like every other business and individual tax payers."
That's an awfully broad definition of the word business you have there.
Both deal with a lot of money but business is commerce. Religion is a belief system.
The ability to tax an institution gives the state a very real and undeniable influence over that institution. Church and state must be kept separate.
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121, santD.
"Religion is a multi-billion dollar business in America and there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why they should not pay taxes like every other business and individual tax payers."
Looking at it from another direction, I am being forced to good money to support views that I oppose. I should think that might constitute a cause for legal action.
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127, clarification.
The money the religious institutons don't pay in taxes, increases my taxes, therefore I am supporting them.
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Ref 126, Andy
"Religion is a belief system."
Religion may, indeed, be interpreted as a belief "system" embraced by individuals to achieve spiritual comfort and it, obviously, should not be taxed any more than finding comfort through contemplation, reflection, or any other method that suits our needs.
Organized religion, however, is an enterprise no different from any other business. Some corporations sell us products, others sell us services, religious organizations sell their "clients" their interpretation of the word of God and its prophets, and offer guidance accordingly. In my opinion, there is little different between going to a priest or pastor and going to a shrink, except for the fact that insurance companies do not cover the former and the latter pays taxes.
There are other issues of course, such as the logic and propriety of allowing mystics to brain wash people and take advantage of their naivete, but unless we zero in on other professionals, such as used car salesmen, I am afraid we have no option but to leave them alone.
Judging by all the empty churches in Europe I have the feeling the only places where divinity businessmen will continue to prosper are the USA, Latin America, and the Middle East.
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I wonder if people realize that a Catholic College or University does not limit its student body to Catholics. Anyone can apply and be accepted who meets entrance requirements. One of my chiidren went to Georgetown. I doubt that she was ever asked her religion, or lack theeof.
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110. At 8:59pm on 23 Apr 2009, Dark Side of the Goon wrote:
So, apart from that brief period when Britain was making the Lord happy by burning all the cows (was Foot and Mouth the Lord's gentle reminder that we should bonfire our daily critter?), we've been failing to honour the Lord for all these years!
Actually, that was sheep. I hadn't realised we'd been helping out. Only I'm not sure about the number of rams that got sacrificed. That's the important part of it, surely?
Perhaps the USA could make flamethrowers, napalm and phosphorous grenades legal for hunting like they did with assault rifles? That would take care of the shortfall pretty quickly, wouldn't it?
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129, saintD.
"Judging by all the empty churches in Europe I have the feeling the only places where divinity businessmen will continue to prosper are the USA, Latin America, and the Middle East."
Doesn't this tell us that as education and sophistication increase, religious institutions decline in influence? Also there is a greater decline in urban areas. This may have to do with not having to depend on the social aspect of religion. In the New York metropolitan area many Catholic churches and schools have closed with the promise of more. Hispanic immigration is apparently not offsetting that.
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133. more on 132.
As far as Iran was concerned, the intellectual class was not, for the most, part religious. Actually no one I knew was. They may have professed to be Moslem, but they did not go to the mosque or carry out the prescribed prayers at home.
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#131
Ish,
Hunting with an assault rifle is illegal. The type of weapon you may use has specific seasons and limitations on ammunition, number of shells loaded and so on (Bow hunting, semi auto shotguns limited to 3 shells for example). You could use a semi auto on your own land, in approved firing lanes for the weapon in question. However, the folks who would do that tend to live in trailer parks so their firing lanes are limited.
Personally I prefer a muzzle loading smooth bore for hunting deer. Taking a doe at 20 yards when you can only load your gun in distance with a round ball is a huge challenge and requires huge concentration and control. For duck and geese the trusty 12 gauge semi is the weapon of choice.
I can't do the bow thing, too old to learn. That too is controlled, you mat show you can hit the target at the required distance (the target being about an 8 inch square. Leaving a deer wounded in the wild is totally unacceptable).
Then of course you must dress and butcher the meat yourself. Anything less would not be sporting.
Hunters get a bad rap, undeserved.
Sportsman Sam
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@123 - What? I said "The Church". It's nice you consider the Catholics to be the definitive article, though. The point is, Leviticus is the bit that says being gay is wrong. Actually, what it says is the practice is "to'ebah" which might be better translated as "ritually impure", which means that God's not banning male to male sex, just insisting that the people who engage in it be purified before entering temple.
That's quite a difference to the church insisting that gay people will burn in hell for all eternity.
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A lot has been written about abortion and that life starts at conception, but no comments on the availability of Plan B, the "morning after" pill which has now been made available, over the counter, to seventeen year olds. Why have our sanctimonious posters not protested that?
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135, Dark Side of the Goon -
I thought the point of your #110 was that we have fallen behind on that whole animal sacrifice thing. Do the plastic-wrapped bits in the supermarket count? Or must they be burned? And would they be burned alive or dead?
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136, David -
Must you encourage them?
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Im sorry but this analysis is just wrong. South American and Latinos though Catholic are not as conservative as has been stated. In terms of politics there main concern has to do with immigration reform and labor issues. Therefore, they will more likely be willing to vote for someone in favor of these issues despite faith based questions. If you ask around most hispanics are actually in favor of Obama despite the administrations differences with Catholic doctrine. This can be seen by the fact that most hispanics voted for Obama.
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139, mononina.
You confirm my opinion that Latin Catholics are not as conformist as other Catholics.
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135, Dark Side.
It doesn't matter who said what in the long, dark past. The Catholic position at this point in time is that homosexuality is sinful. But, again, who cares what the pope thinks?
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Ref. 131, British-ish
"Perhaps the USA could make flamethrowers, napalm and phosphorous grenades legal for hunting like they did with assault rifles?"
You can't use assault rifles to hunt. It's not that it's cheating. It's that they don't have the stopping power to bring down a large animal at a distance, instead wounding the animal. A wounded animal can outdistance a hunter on foot (which is also required) easily. Hunting rifles are far more accurate, too.
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@137 - apparently the animal must be whole and unmarked, and perfect.
Also, if you can't afford a cow you can burn a sheep, or a goat. If you can't afford them, then a pigeon or turtledove will apparently do. If you can't manage any of those, grain. Although that has to go to the priests, who will consume the most holy portion.
Porridge oats are probably not safe to offer, since they come in a box that shows a man in a skirt on the outside, and that's as abominable as gay sex (according to what's said in Deuteronomy) and obviously you want to avoid making offerings of insects, lobsters, shellfish etc since those are as ritually impure as cross-dressing.
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133, followup.
Now that I think about it I cannot remember servants or workers praying or taking themselves off to the mosque. It must have been a minority that was truly observant. Just like here, I guess. I big fuss is made about the mollahs - but they are not the people. The only sort of uniformly religious people I can think of are the bazaaris.
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#137
Beren,
Would a George Foreman grill count?
Chef Sam
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143, Dark Side -
Now, I am so glad you told me about the insects. I had no idea they were in the same impure category as shellfish.
And that's great news about the pigeons. So much less fuss and mess than the cows, etc. If one finds a perfect unmarked whole pigeon, may one conk it over the head first and then burn it? Or do you have to tie its little feet and wings together and burn it alive and listen to its little pigeon screams? I do so want to get this right.
It's a shame about the man in the skirt because I do happen to have the oats on hand and that would have been much easier than stalking and conking pigeons. But when one is trying to save the world, one mustn't grumble about a little inconvenience.
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Ref. 134, Sam
"Hunters get a bad rap, undeserved."
Not where I live. Hunters are the source for elk and venison. They're quite popular about a month after the season ends.
As a Bio major (sooooo long ago) I can assure you that you're providing a very needed service. If you didn't do it, I'd have to, and, really, I don't want to kill the animals. I just don't like it. If you enjoy it (the hunt), all the better.
So, thanks... and can you hook me up?
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145, Sam -
Hey, I'm a novice at this myself. You have to ask Dark Side. He/she is the expert. But if you can have a shabbas goy turning the lights on and off I don't see why you can't burn sacrifices on a grill.
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Ref. 128, marbles
"The money the religious institutons don't pay in taxes, increases my taxes, therefore I am supporting them."
Is a church any more than the sum of its members? I'm not sure it is. The members pay their taxes. Why should they be double taxed?
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#116 Mr Hill, IRS crackdown on church political activity here
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=161131,00.html
and here http://blog.au.org/2007/06/05/spirit-one-irs-too-kansas-church-investigated-for-political-endorsements/
here http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174866,00.html
here http://www.pgdc.com/pgdc/news-story/2008/02/28/irs-investigate-churchs-political-activities
For a while the allegation was that they were on cracking down on the NAACP and ethnic/race associated churches
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i would not say that "row" is an exaggeration it might even be an understatement, I only recently learned about this on a retreat at my high school(which is catholic) when the woman leading the retreat changed her tune from cheesy somewhat inspirational stories to an anti-obama rant complaining that there was a "Pro-death" speaker coming to one of the nation's leading Catholic colleges and that he had not attended a religious service since he got into office
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149, Andy.
"Is a church any more than the sum of its members? I'm not sure it is. The members pay their taxes. Why should they be double taxed?"
Peculiar reasoning. If I buy something in the store, that business pays taxes. I pay taxes. Am I double taxed? At least if I buy in a store I am leaving with something. I get no services from the church and wind up paying for those who do. Atheists of America unite!!!!
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"" voting "present" in the Illinois
legislature, which is apparently equivalent to voting "no." ""
Why not cut out the middle man and just vote "No".
I believe that Obama voted present on most things which really means nothing. I believe the descriptive correct word is agnostic.
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151, Beck.
"...that he (Obama) had not attended a religious service since he got into office
Straighten me out here. Is there a law that a president has to attend church, or mosque, or synogogue, or whatever? Doesn't he have the freedom of choice that everyone does? Or is it required that a president be a hypocrite? I doubt that Obama has any strong religious convictions. So what? Does that affect how he stabilizes the economy?
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#151 That is very sad because his church attendance has been widely publicized. Here is one example since he was sworn in. http://www.wtopnews.com/?nid=596&sid=1647586 Why would someone do that to children?
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Ref 151 Beck91
"...and that he had not attended a religious service since he got into office"
Maybe he attends a television evangelist "church". I can see the Prez, Michelle and the girls sitting on a couch tuned in to Joel on a Sunday Morning. They have plenty of bread and wine in the White House kitchen for family communion services.
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ALL the Catholic people I know voted for Obama. Most are "liberal" or slightly "lapsed" Catholics - many have been permanently jaded and/or appalled by the Catholic Church hierarchy's obfuscations re: sexual abuse. I don't think it's accurate to talk about OBAMA being at 'war' with the Catholic Church/hierarchy here. It's more accurate to say that conservative anti-choice Catholics here may be agitating against Obama's progressive policies on abortion rights and on stem-cell research.
But then the Catholic Church hierarchy has a long history of taking up the sword against other who do not adhere to their "party line" e.g. the Inquisition, the Crusades, etc., etc. This is why a lot of us with Catholicism in our not-too-distant family tree are either "lapsed" or "retired" or "former" or non- Catholics. Our Karma has run over the Church's Dogma, as that clever bumper-sticker says....
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156, publius.
"They have plenty of bread and wine in the White House kitchen for family communion services."
That bread and wine business always makes me think of cannibalism. For a humorous view of cannibalism you should read Mark Twain's "Cannibalism in the Cars." He says Fred was delicious.
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157, Grrr.
Being a "lapsed" Catholic is a tradition in my family that goes back generations. The only time they ever went to church was for baptisms, weddings and funerals so they could party or give someone a good sendoff. (No first communion or confirmation though. That was going too far.) I don't think any of them knew what the mass was all about. Yet the older folk, until their dying day, would say they were Catholic. This is a not uncommon Italian heritage.
Slight correction. Very occasionally they would attend church on Easter Sunday (to show off their new clothes) or on Christmas Eve if the music was particularly good (in the days of processionals and Gregorian chants).
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#141. allmymarbles: "The Catholic position at this time is that homosexuality is sinful."
Well, not exactly; Rome waffles a bit as shown by Catholic Answers:
Homosexual desires, however, are not in themselves sinful. People are subject to a wide variety of sinful desires over which they have little direct control, but these do not become sinful until a person acts upon them, either by acting out the desire or by encouraging the desire and deliberately engaging in fantasies about acting it out. People tempted by homosexual desires, like people tempted by improper heterosexual desires, are not sinning until they act upon those desires in some manner.
The writer relies on the same familiar arguments, citing Leviticus but not all the prohibitions therein. The single reference from the New Testament is that to Paul's letter to the Romans, which Catholics do not consider to be divinely inspired. It appears to be the justification of ingrained bigotry with dubious "facts" to back up the opinion: not once is Christ Himself mentioned.
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47. At 09:51am on 23 Apr 2009, Young-Mr-Grace wrote:
"On the subject of evangelical christianity I have a question to which I have not found a satisfactory answer so perhaps someone can enlighten me....
... imagine someone who has never heard of Jesus...they don't know he exists but they are in a state of sin from the moment they are conceived and so must be condemed to hell for all eternity. It just seems unfair to punish someone without giving that individual the chance for redemption - yet God is just. However if He can extent his forgiving grace to this person without them embracing Jesus then there is a way to salvation without Jesus .....
Can any theologians out there square the circle in an acceptable way...?"
I know this is now very old - but Young-Mr-Grace deserves more than the flip answer that was given.
A careful reading of the first few chapters of the letter to the Romans will explain the theological position of those who have not and could not hear about Jesus. First, Chapter 1, verses 19 and 20 show that God is revealed to everyone through what is made, that is through creation. In chapter 2 we learn that we cannot fairly judge any person ourselves, but that God 'will judge every person according to their deeds .."To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life: but to them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation, and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also to the Gentile; but glory, honor, and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God." - verses 7 - 11.
Although Paul is writing mostly about the differences between Jews and Gentiles, and between those who live under the Law (of Moses) and those who don't, he does speak to your question, I think. Faith is the key to justification, as he explains in the end of chapter 2 and through chapter 3. In chapter 4 Abraham was justified by his faith, even though he could not have heard the gospel of Jesus - his faith was in God (same thing). Of course, those who have heard of Jesus must respond with faith or risk the liability of unbelievers, but those who do not hear this word can still have faith in God, who is not seen (also a requirement if it is to be 'faith').
I hope this helps.
KScurmdgeon
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Ref 158 allmymarbles
That reminds me of a line from a movie. I think it was The Black Robe, where a native says to the Jesuit; "I don't want to eat your Jesus anymore!"
I'm a great fan of Twain. It's been a while since I read that story. I'll have to revisit it.
We only got the communion wafer when I was a altar boy. I always felt cheated that the Priest was the only one who got the wine.
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160, David.
That's cutsie-wutsie church talk. You can be a homosexual, but you can't think about it or practice it. If you can't think about it, how do you know you are a homosexual? That's one for the Jesuits to explain.
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162, publius.
"I always felt cheated that the Priest was the only one who got the wine."
This may be the first step towards lapsing.
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143. At 02:09am on 24 Apr 2009, Dark Side of the Goon wrote:
@137 - apparently the animal must be whole and unmarked, and perfect.
Rules out conking the pigeon over the head. Or shooting it. You see, my notion of hunting it and incinerating it at the same time was on the right lines after all. You just have to put your hands over your ears to block out the screams. Or wear earmuffs, as they did in Guantanamo, no doubt.
Also, if you can't afford a cow you can burn a sheep
The story of Bristol Palin's inseminator (filched from The Guardian)
'When CNN presenter Larry King asked Johnston where he was when former Republican presidential candidate John McCain announced Sarah Palin was his running mate, Johnston said: "Well, when they - when it first came out and everyone knew, I was actually sheep hunting out on the Alaska range." '
I've never understood what people see in Larry King. Surely his questioning could have been more, shall we say, penetrating? Did this sheep hunting involve weapons? Was the purpose (seeing he's a religious boy) sacrifice? Or something else?
Dear me, what difficulties reading this religious book leads one into.
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#163. allmymarbles: "That's cutsie-wutsie church talk. You can be a homosexual, but you can't think about it or practice it."
No, but they do urge abstinence! About the same as their views on contraception.
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Ref 164 allmymarbles
I'm long past lapsing. I left the church when I was sixteen. Went on an odyssey to find another church. Tried all the big hitters. Visited Budda. Looked into the lesser known faiths. Discovered my native american spirituality and found peace in Grandfather Sun and Grandmother Earth as created by Manitou. No collection plates required.
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166, David.
"...they do urge abstinence! About the same as their views on contraception."
They are waffling because they don't want to lose any moe customers.
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163. At 05:39am on 24 Apr 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
160, David.
"That's cutsie-wutsie church talk. You can be a homosexual, but you can't think about it or practice it. If you can't think about it, how do you know you are a homosexual? That's one for the Jesuits to explain."
Hi, Marbles.
I'm not a Jesuit, and certainly not a theologian, but I'm not also intentionally obtuse.
This is about sin. Sin is a matter of morality, which in turn is about actions - what we do rather than what is done to us or what happens independent of us. Random thoughts happen to all of us, all the time, including incipient desires, fears, notions, etc., even things we actually see, hear, and so on. We choose what to do with our thoughts and inadvertent experiences, however, which ones we dwell on and make part of our inner lives, and which we ignore. We have all seen someone else in an embarrassing moment - we have all seen a stranger's nakedness, for example.
The correct thing to do, morally, is not to act on this private bit of information, either directly or by dwelling on it in our thoughts. We commit an offence to the other person's privacy and dignity if we take advantage of the situation.
But the real problem I have with your statement, Marbles, is with the use of 'be': 'you can be a homosexual'... I think it is what you act on that makes you what you are - that a human is given the power to make decisions, and is accountable for the person they become as a result of those decisions. I suppose we all incidentally find a wide variety of people attractive - but do you really want to get to know them all intimately? What is intimacy then?
yours,
KScurmudgeon
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british-ish, Dark Side, you may have seen this before, or you may not.
In either case, I would be careful walking through the woods
with whatever you're packing.
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and, Sam, pay attention too. You might need an assault weapon
if a bovine insurrection takes hold. Who knows what their religious
observances entail?
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170. At 06:35am on 24 Apr 2009, gunsandreligion wrote:
british-ish, Dark Side, you may have seen this before, or you may not.
The squirrels raise their clenched left paws in salute. (They haven't forgotten, or forgiven, the crisps.)
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gunsandreligion # 170
Pull the udder one!
Are you suggesting that all cross dressing bovines-[ this is a He-cow ?] are pistol packing agressive types as shown in your link?
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173. At 07:09am on 24 Apr 2009, markingtime wrote:
gunsandreligion # 170
Pull the udder one!
Are you suggesting that all cross dressing bovines-[ this is a He-cow ?] are pistol packing agressive types as shown in your link?
Why are you sceptical? It's all those hormones and things they give them in the US. Obviously.
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#169. KScurmudgeon: "Sin is a matter of morality."
No, it's a matter of opinion. The catalogue of "sins" described by the Roman Catholic Church is not the same as other churches; indeed, the Anglican Church does not see homosexuality as a sin. Neither does it venerate the Virgin Mary nor believe in transubstantiation - and failing to do so would be considered sinful by Catholicism.
"I suppose we all incidentally find a wide variety of people attractive - but do you really want to get to know them all intimately?"
It would depend on just how attractive they were, either socially or sexually. It probably has something to do with one's libido. Youth tends to be less selective than those more mature.
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131 british-ish
"Actually, that was sheep. I hadn't realised we'd been helping out. Only I'm not sure about the number of rams that got sacrificed. That's the important part of it, surely?"
Interestingly (to me anyway) the sacrifice of a sheep in ancient Rome was the symbol of an "ovation" - a minor public congratulation. (ovine is to sheep as bovine is to cattle).
For a full military "triumph", a sheep, a cow and a goat were sacrificed.
Will Obama get a standing ovation when (if) he speaks at Notre Dame?
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173, 174, markingtime, british-ish, that's a "prime" example of why I don't
go out on blind dates.
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135 darksideofthegoon
"The point is, Leviticus is the bit that says being gay is wrong. Actually, what it says is the practice is "to'ebah" which might be better translated as "ritually impure", which means that God's not banning male to male sex, just insisting that the people who engage in it be purified before entering temple."
So perhaps the church(es) should simply ban gays from entering not only the priesthood, but also the building!!!
Should clean out the Vatican somewhat....
Or perhaps a bit more christian tolerance, and a bit less cherry-picking from 3000 year old Jewish religious texts might be more appropriate for the 21st century.
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Men in frocks want to take on Obama? I rest my case...
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47 young-mr-grace and 161 kscurmudgeon
on the idea that those who never heard about Jesus cannot accept him and therefore by default are damned .....
The reason theologians and churchmen do not comment on this is because the answer is not very nice.
The medieval church position was clear - no Jesus,tough luck, you're in hell.
Read Dante's inferno (I know Dante does not speak for the church, but his writings represent the superstition of the time) and in canto XII.33 Vergil and Dante discover that Christ had come down to hell after his crucifixion to release the old testament prophets (but not other Jews, most of whom were in the ninth circle).
Also pre-Christ figures such as Aristotle, Plato etc were in hell. That's the rule.
Too much thinking about this all makes people realise that God was not very nice (read much of the old Testamnet to see how he generally treated his "chosen people").
To use the letters of Paul (who never met Christ is whose letters are not considered divinely inspired) to explain the rescue of Abraham et al is specious as it does not reveal the fate of a hypothetical good person who lived before christ or had never heard of him (or the Judeo-Christian god).
The more you question it, the more ridiculous it all is, which is why the defult argument is always that you must have faith.
It's easier than thinking.
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180, RomeStu, I'm sorry, but you got it all wrong.
I hope you're headed for a nice place for eternity...
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181 guns - I'm heading for a nice patch of land in the country for as long as it takes the worms to eat me.
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"religion is the opiate of the masses"
Nuff said.
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161 kscurmudgeon and 180 RomeStu
Thanks for taking the time to consider my question..
I must admit to still being a bit confused. 161 suggests that those who never hear about Christ can still be saved by "faith" in a god who is revealed through nature. However most cultures have a deity or deities whom they consider responsible for creation but faith in such a god would be regarded as idolitry and be a sure path to hell. Someone in thta situation is expected to reject all the cultural teachings of their society (and most peoople don't if they adopt a religion it is nearly always the faith of their parents) and to have faith in a god who they cannot identify and whose teachings they are ignorant of. It seems a high barrier....take as an example an aztec priest in the early 1400's. He would have a sense of divinity behind creation and culture appropriate faith. Respecting his father and his mother he would behave according to the morals and standards that he had been taught. So far so good. However this would lead him to rip the still beating heart from the bodies of prisoners of war in a sacrifical ceremony. Is his faith in a divinity enough to save him or is he condemed to hell for his acts of murder (which technically are not murder since the laws of his land do not forbid the practice in fact they insist upon it.)
Also if faith and following the laws as you understand them can lead to salvation then why bother with Jesus. Someone ignorant of Jesus has a chance of salvation via the "Abraham" route but if a missionary turns up and tells him about Jesus then he either follows and is saved or rejects and is damned. Why not leave well alone and allow him to find god or not via the "Abraham" route. Evangelism could just be taking people from a path which might lead to salvation and placing them on the highway to hell if (for many reasons) they stick with the faith they were following beforehand.
Am I still missing something?
You're all doing very well !!
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Stu (178),
- "So perhaps the church(es) should simply ban gays from entering not only the priesthood,"
Careful!Saint One (183),
- ""religion is the opiate of the masses""
You ain't seen nuthin' yet!;-)
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# 95 AndyPost wrote:
"Right and wrong is a human construct. Animals have no concept of ethics or morals. Take my cat. He is the worst kind of psychopath. He just loves torturing small defenseless animals to death, and he has no qualms about it at all. His only problem is that his "toys" don't last long enough."
You should introduce him to Marcus Aurelius II. They sound like soulmates.
[As long, of course, as your cat doesn't torture and kill small defenseless AMERICAN animals. It's OK if they're foreign, especially if they're European or Arab.]
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# 117 Dark Side of the Goon wrote:
"Re 2012, generally: I don't suppose it's occurred to anyone that the reason the Mayan Calendar stops in 2012 is that someone simply decided "That's five thousand odd years of calendar...I think I'll knock off early and come back to this when we need a bit more"?"
I think it's important to remember that different belief systems have different views on when the world will end.
For example, I understand that Riverside, Iowa has signs saying something like 'Proud birthplace of James T Kirk in 2232'.
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# 124 allmymarbles wrote:
"I have news for you. Every religion is inttolerant. That is the nature of the beast."
Really?
I understood Unitarians were pretty tolerant. Bahai too. And I don't recall many cases of Buddhists persecuting members of other faiths.
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187. At 1:54pm on 24 Apr 2009, john-In-Dublin wrote:
# 117 Dark Side of the Goon wrote:
"Re 2012, generally: I don't suppose it's occurred to anyone that the reason the Mayan Calendar stops in 2012 is that someone simply decided "That's five thousand odd years of calendar...I think I'll knock off early and come back to this when we need a bit more"?"
I think it's important to remember that different belief systems have different views on when the world will end.
I can't say I've much confidence in any of them, since they can't even agree on when it began. I'm very taken by the picture Dark side conjured up. I can see a bunch of Mayan priests getting a bit tiddly, saying "Look, are you as bored with doing these sums as I am? Why don't we just stop, tell everybody it's going to be 2012 and get on with something that's a bit more fun, like sacrificing a few virgins? By the time they find out we'll be long gone anyway, so who cares?"
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the Mayan cycles end in 2011, not 2012. Hope they're wrong, I was planning on renting out my flat for the London Olympics.
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i am a bit confused, Justin, the talk of the town this past week has been the interrogation tapes, torture and Dick Cheney claiming torture works. How comes your blog has no mention of that this week? It seems like a very hot topic.
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my apologies. I think i found your blog on that topic.
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To#189 Britishish
I received this information in 'good faith.' The world will end on the second Tuesday of next week but only if it rains.
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No wonder Justin's blog is up for an award.
Smart + insightful + irony = Quality
Religion + sex + politics = Quantity
Who says you can't learn something from a 'high-traffic-volume' blog ?
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Barack Hussein Obama II is Muslim plant... Just take a look at some of the changes that are being made to the US Defence Dept...
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124 allmymarbles
"Every religion is inttolerant. That is the nature of the beast."
Much as I agree with you about many other topics, on this I must beg to differ. It is not religion that is intolerant. It is our human nature that is intolerant. Those of us who practice our faiths, or nonbelievers who strive for morality on their own, are still tainted by our imperfections and never able to achieve our goals. But that doesn't make the pursuit of them any less noble or worthy.
This is why many non-Fundamentalist, moderate or liberal Christians get so fired up when we are included in one broad stroke of condemnation with the literalist, God-and-my-country-right-or-wrong-and-unfettered-capitalism crowd, or Jihadists, or other variations of the same narrowminded, tribal theme.
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"The shortfall is made up, of course, by South American immigrants."
The majority of the immigrants to the US are Mexicans and not South Americans, makes me wonder what kind of qualification you need in order to work in the bbc!
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you say
"Who's really at fault here? The guy who says what he does? Or the mob that ACTS"
What if the Guy shouts" He's the killer" pointing at some innocent to hide his own guilt.
Cause that "friend " is what is happening.
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# 194 dpb1997 wrote:
"Barack Hussein Obama II is Muslim plant [sic]... Just take a look at some of the changes that are being made to the US Defence Dept..."
You're right!
First they'll take away our guns
Then our tinfoil hats.....
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"Your one issue president."
OH I'm not going to give a name to the Idiot that said this but really. Obama is dealing with one issue?
I take issue with that.
seems that many say he is doing so much etcc , but you who want to claim the ability to think , cliam that Obama is one issue.
I expect too hear" all obama does is push abortion, screw the economy(who needs it when you have froth to feed on) ,war on terror(ended, so babies could be slaughtered)"
It is you that is one issue.
So back to arc . when does lying start to turn speech into hate speak.
Back to Billy the wizzed up cranker from the states.
"Nobody is going to riot or interrupt his speech with air horns like Code Pink or the Leftists at the G20 or WTO."
WHAT?
WTO and G20 riots rallies are against some of the biggest organisations with HUGE reach.
The same organisations that brought us GLOBAL ECONOMIC MELTDOWN.
Great folk. them G6 ,oh I mean 20.
protest Obama speaking at a pretty insignificant catholic university
protest the powers that have brought us unchecked banks and industry , pollution.
The same group that said exporting all the jobs overseas and turning sustainable farms into susceptible monocultures.
No wonder people protest the G20WYO.
(and did you see the level of violence against those anti globalisation protests by every state hat has held a meeting of these Vampire organisations.
the way the police react you would think they had angry fork waving "christians" looking for some righteous indignation because they are pissed at free speech.
While lying about Obama and saying It is my right to free speech.
Anyone who would not protest the G20 and wto is one hell of a lack christian anyway.
They are anti the peoples rights. indigenous tribes are trounced. Economic slavery where natural resources are plundered etc.
there are more immoral issues arising because of the WTO and the trading the world away behind it's inhabitants back that in the abortion issue.
so get real. abortion versus....... economic model that destroys world as we know it.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Guys Mayan calendar is a cyclical one. no end on a circle.
same concept as revolution.
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happylaze: Still calling names? Must be unpleasant.
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131 napalm like substance is available through logging supplies where you may be able to get some black powder. Used for starting fires in the wet for fire control.
Sam do those rules covering hunting with Assault rifles apply in Oregon?
107 Bere you made it up but it has happened here all the time.
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Given President Obama’s utterly shameful record on life, how
could a Catholic university honor him?
This is one of the questions posed in the email towards Catholics at Lancaster Catholic High School in Lancaster, PA about Obama speaking at Notre Dame.
Let's look at REALITY.
I sent Pope Benedict XVI a email November, 17 2005 and asked him to clarify the Roman Catholic Church's position on dealing with pedophile cases "within" the church. I never got a response! I have a copy of the email, still waiting.
I have copies of Los Angeles Superior Court documents 51000067, 51000068, 51000069, and 51000070 which clearly show John Paul II looked the other way when informed about children being sexually abused by Roman Catholic priests in the Los Angeles area. Document 51000067 clearly states, FROM THE VATICAN. I spoke to a investigative reporter from California who went through more than 10,000 pages of documents to find the one's listed above. After speaking to him and a lawyer, there is no doubt in my mind all Roman Catholics are worthless sheep who will never question religious authority.
"They must find it difficult, those that take authority as truth, instead of truth as the authority."
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108 well put Marbles.
It is rarely the catholics in the states with 8 children. I do see some other denominations seem to be breeding for the lord.
120. At 10:11pm on 23 Apr 2009, rbr569 As a 40 year old practicing moderate R.C. I must say that no one quite gets it.
Not even you.
What part of covering in a health plan do you not get.
I don't think you should be allowed fertility treatment.
I bet you might be up for it if you were childless.
The NHS performs abortions in the UK.
Do you see crowds of Catholic protesters outside chasing doctors and beating them. NO
Why. Because it is you crazy americans that can ruin any religion. Why is the Catholic church loosing numbers.
Because it WAS there for all that wanted to join.
Now you have to be a sanctimonious anti abortionist.
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154 ' Marbles I think beck 151 was not impressed with the change from cheese .
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Adrinninny ,why not?
And you may not have noticed I reserve it for thse that make in my opinion stupid remarks.
Hence I do not dig at GnR and others who make sense and do not engage in lies and deceit.
I must say I was quite impressed that earlier you managed to post several word in a row . and some even made sense.
While you were still quoting others.
then you went into quoting still unsubstantiated polls that prove only democratic racists didn't vote for Obama because they are racists.
A logical masterpiece.
As usual.
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GO GGGRRRLLIIIEE
WELCOME BACK and with fire in your belly.
"It's more accurate to say that conservative anti-choice Catholics here may be agitating against Obama's progressive policies on abortion rights and on stem-cell research."
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I was unaware that the Church of Rome was in decline in the USA, but I am hardly surprised.
US are generally less institutionalised in their thinking than we Brits, and dictatorial leadership from an established branch of the universal church will repel rather than attract members.
The Church of Rome's equivalent to Gordon Brown's "efficiency savings" would be to become less doctrinare. That would help.
But let's remember it is the Holy Trinity that is the head of the church, and Jesus heads up the salvation department.
The head of the Church is NOT the Pope, the Archbishop of Canterbury or some self-declared gay bishop in the US.
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"The money the religious institutons don't pay in taxes, increases my taxes, therefore I am supporting them."
Quite the contrary, sir.
Actually, Catholic institutions SAVE the government a fortune. If the 150,000 children enrolled in Catholic schools in NYC were to quit and enroll in the public system they would overwhelm it and, by sheer overcrowding, make the classrooms therein unmanageable. All students would suffer. Yet, I get no tax break for sending 3 children there. Equally, by having closed its hospitals in Brookyln and Queens, the Church stuck the city with the bill. The neighboring hospitals which must pick up the slack have more indigent people seeking care, which the hospitals eat, and which the insured who go there pay for through higher fees. That, or medicare picks it up. Again the government SAVES money. When our homeless programs lose funding, indigent men go from a home for 6 to 8 to dangerous, crime-ridden, overcrowded shelters with hundreds of predatory residents. And when the adoption agencies close after gay marriage is passed, the government, or other agencies,will be left to find homes for children. The same is true anywhere that Catholic services operate. Close our social networks and the government takes over. The taxpayer saves a fortune through the Church.
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The whole highly contentious abortion debate in the US, (far more intense than in just about any other Western nation), seems to me at least, to be framed in a very limited way.
In the UK, the 1967 Abortion Act, (a free vote in the Commons not a party line), allowing limited terminations, was informed in part by a chilling reality.
By the mid 1960's, despite the massive improvements in access to health care and social protection, there were still by a (conservative) estimate, some 55,000 illegal terminations per year.
Over 1000 a week.
Performed largely by illegal, untrained, back street abortionists.
Just about all of the women were the more vunerable of society, economically, socially.
This some 5 years after the Pill became available.
The toll was horrific, each year, several hundred of these women, girls, died as a result of these illegal terminations, many more were injured, many for life.
The population of the US is some five times that of the UK, allow too for the increases in population in both nations in the 40+ years since.
Do the maths.
So we get to the hard, stark reality, behind all the noise, the campaigning, the death threats against doctors ('pro-lifers' threatening or even in the past, actually killing people!)
If they get their way, some unborn will be saved.
But many more, maybe most, will not be, however you would add another toll, the inevitable dead women and girls, the inevitable injuries, the new form of criminal activity that would emerge. (Including probably new 'business' for current organised crime).
There is no getting away from this reality, hope counts for little against an ever growing pile of poorly sterilised-if at all-and blood soaked crude instruments of this now illegal, uncontrolled trade.
I can of course totally understand the emotions behind this subject, however if you pitch it as 'saving human life', this only really makes sense if this is also part of a genuine belief in the sanctity of life in general.
Including being a pacifist, given the general right wing stance of US anti abortionists, this is unlikely to be the case is it?
So fine if you want to protect babies/the unborn, logically that also includes those who can be, will have been, however unintentionally, those killed by a bomb dropped by an American aircraft.
But it's not a perfect world is it?
Fundamentalist beliefs do not translate into fundamental realities.
I should perhaps point out that I was adopted a 6 weeks old, to a loving family.
Had I been conceived just a few months later, my unknown (presumably impoverished) natural mother would have had the option created by the 1967 Abortion Act.
This does not change my views on this however.
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169, KS
175, David.
The Catholic church keeps softening its stance on moral questions as it loses its following. Time was when intent or desire, without commission, was a sin.
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In my opinion the issue of abortion is a complicated one that can only be resolved with intense consideration of both the medical and personal condition of the fetus and the mother. I don't think early stage abortions are Murder, because, although the processes of life have certainly started, I don't think that there is yet a human Subject, and without the capacity for consciousness, there is not really a person to commit Murder against.
However, that does not mean that abortions are ideal or without moral consequences. Depending on the circumstances, an early stage abortion may very well be Wrong, just not murderous.
Having said that, the Church, right now, is in a state of self-enforced blindness. They are faced with a complicated issue that requires the entire world to think and struggle to find a suitable conclusion, but they just pretend that they already found the answer somehow and that anyone who disagrees or just seeks further, deeper understanding is a ne'er-do-well.
Let me just set forward, from my own theological perspective, that if people already knew all the answers or understood everything that could be understood, like the Church seems to think it does, then the world would probably be over already. After all, why would God keep running things over and over again after everything was solved and known completely, even by a limited party such as the Church? I don't think God is just waiting for everyone to agree with the Pope! Since the world is not over and done with, I think we all must have some work left to do. And, even for the Church, there is still progress left to be made.
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#138.bere54: "136, David - (re Plan B) - Must you encourage them?"
Apologies for the tardy response - I just found it hypocritical of the anti-abortion brigade not to protest this. Possibly it's acceptable because "life" hasn't yet commenced, although it can be taken up to three days after intercourse, by which time I would have thought fertilization would have occurred.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
188, John-in-Dublin.
"I understood Unitarians were pretty tolerant. Bahai too. And I don't recall many cases of Buddhists persecuting members of other faiths."
Any group that thinks it is right and everyone else is wrong, exhibits intolerance. Of the three religions you mention, the only one I have intimate knowledge of is the Bahai - an intolerable group that prosylitizes from morning til night and goes on endlessly about its virute and everyone else's lack theirof.
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194, dpb.
"Barack Hussein Obama II is Muslim plant... Just take a look at some of the changes that are being made to the US Defence Dept..."
Earth to Mars....
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195, Via
"It is not religion that is intolerant. It is our human nature that is intolerant."
And a religion is a collection of humans sharing the same form of interance. This is a more powerful expression of intolerance than individual biases.
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208 and after You guys have educated then we can spend the rest of their lives correcting the problems you created in your charges by telling them no dunkies and if you got rhythm you won't get pregnant.
Pushing you (how did girlie put it) conservative anti abortion catholics out of the church and excommunicating you for not showing humility (you think you are better) or charity or any other Christian virtue would be a good Idea for the Catholics as well.
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213 didn't get angry did we ninny.
or were you calling people names?
;)
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212 DC they are against it. that is why it took till now for that event to happen.
Bush wouldn't let it.
SHHH
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186 John in Dublin.
"You should introduce him to Marcus Aurelius II. They sound like soulmates."
That's pretty nasty and makes no sense.
MA has no soul and cats have some taste.
PS world out there. The only way to stop this ridiculous obsessive behaviour of americans over abortions is to tell them to politely "shut UP"
do not let them take over european politics, if you fear sharia law then fear the bloody american anti abortionists.
In their own way every bit as cruel as any on the planet.
Unless they are also anti the War , death Penalty and fertility treatment, then they at least have consistency on their side.
Cadrolls is like that. We disagree on abortion and other things but he is always against Any death caused by man.
Respecting those that would ignore the war etc is not honest for an anti abortionist that complains about no other killing.
If they bring it up to you in europe tell them they are crazy and you don't want to hear it.
or do as they do whenever another way ,other than american is discussed with americans.
tell them" if you don't like it go home"
get nasty
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For the confused, here is a guide as to what you should be doing with
whomever you are doing it with.
I hope that this chart clarifies everything for everyone.
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218. happylaze: Nah. Something I wrote about your incoherent, botched sentences and questionable sobriety must have upset the moderators.
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Getting off the abortion issue is worthwhile. The fundamental question is: Should Obama be invited to speak at a Catholic institution? The answer is incontrovertably NO. There is nothing in his attitude or demeanor that jibes with anything that the Church holds dear. The Church is anti-War (he is not stopping US involvement in Irag and Afghanistan); anti death penalty (he is not doing anything to make it illegal throughout the U.S.); anti-abortion ( "morning after" pils without question to 17 year olds is a bit much); pro-legal status for immigrants(he is doing nothing to address the illegal immigration problem); anti-stem cell research (he legalized it) The lists can go on, and as we learn more about him his record will speak for itself. One can disagree (hopefully respectfully) with Church teachings. But it is certainly within its rights to be selective about people who are invited to speak at its institutions. By anaolgy: should Downing Street invite Gerry Adams over to celebrate the Queen's birthday? I think not
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222 lol at least I admit to trying to put people down. back to that thing you know little about.
Honesty.
"your incoherent, botched sentences and questionable sobriety"
I'm honest enought to say I'm a pot head. you assume always.
You make bigotted assumptions about your mental state being better than someone who happens to take "drugs" . a sad and convienient excuse for you still living in la la nancy land. but for most just a bunch of Bull.
I'll put you down by calling you a ninny.
you call me stupid and incapacitated addict if you like.
But if you think you are any better then you are mightily wrong.
Ninny.
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It is surely easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for any sane, educated, rational individual to take seriously any idea/suggestion/claim that there is a divine being responsible for the creation of the World and everything on it.
One word: Evolution.
Five words: No more need be said.
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223 -
I always wonder why we are expected to be respectful of "teachings" that are hogwash and flagrantly fly in the face of common sense.
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221. guns.
"For the confused, here is a guide as to what you should be doing with whomever you are doing it with."
Looks like you can the least fun as a Catholic and the most as a Buddhist. Time to convert!
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223
did GW go to ND?
He was a murderer by some definitions
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/04/obamas_catholic_difficulties.html#P78969078
As for " The fundamental question is: Should Obama be invited to speak at a Catholic institution? The answer is incontrovertably NO. There is nothing in his attitude or demeanor that jibes with anything that the Church holds dear. "
Not a fundamental question but a fundamentalists question. that fundamentalist being our Justin .;)
Obama against war?
did not vote for it.he spoke out against it. most others did. the list of speakers available just got real real short.
Now that GW/Dick have broken so many places in such a short time.
Iraq Pakistan Afghanistan etc. by encouraging anyone to think AQ is better than the USA..Now you want to leave all to kill each other.
or rather you would have us deride the guy who is trying to end Both these conflicts . Neither of which he was responsible for.
Death penalty.
So he should be knocked because he is smart enough to not believe that bringing this to the american people would work. (futile gesture considering (unfortunately) the american people.
So he leaves it for a while.
ATTACK.
I assume you were against Both wars and publicly said this?
Are you against the death penalty?
I assume so.
What other president that spoke at ND was against the war and the death penalty.
mot quite the queens birthday but.
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/everyone-was-nervous--gerry-adams-hands-were-visibly-shaking-1324808.html
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I am certainly not a defender of the Catholic Church, a Church I abandoned many years ago because I could not accept dogma I considered illogical, and because of the intolerance, greed, and corruption associated with organized religion in general; but I think those that seem so eager to highlight priest sex scandals, and the Vatican's slow response to it, should remember hypocrisy and cynicism are widespread in the divinity world. Don't forget Ted Haggard, Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Earl Paulk, John Hagee, Jamal Harrison, Paul Barnes and the rest of the divinity boys who like their Catholic counterparts preached one thing and did the opposite.
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224. happylaze: Yeah, whatever. Straight and high are two very different states. Your writing reflects that.
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"Looks like you can (have) the least fun as a Catholic ... "
On the contrary, the most fun is had by breaking the rules.
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Guns, 221 is fascinating. It always amazes me how jewish and catholic outlooks vary so much, given how much of their beliefs stem supposedly from the same source. Does god speak with forked tongue? Lost in Tranlation, I like that film. Scarlett Johansson was amazing.
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229, saintDominick -
I doubt anyone has forgotten the hypocrisy of the rest of organized religion, but this blog post is specifically about Catholics so it is natural that most of the comments would be directed thusly. Open season on that church, so to speak. But feel free to bash all those other guys; I for one would enjoy that.
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231, Gary.
""Looks like you can (have) the least fun as a Catholic ... "
"On the contrary, the most fun is had by breaking the rules."
I can't argue with experience.
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#223. rbr569: "Getting off the abortion issue is worthwhile. The fundamental question is: Should Obama be invited to speak at a Catholic institution? The answer is incontrovertably NO."
The majority of Americans don't care to be told to whom their President may address. After all, he was elected to his office by a majority of those voting, something which cannot be said of either Her Majesty or Gordon Brown. Of course he should address a Catholic body - he will be there in his capacity as head of the nation, not stumping for any part of his political agenda.
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Personally I think the Catholic Church needs to grow up and get a brain. They have no say as to what women can do to their bodies. Living in the past helps no one.
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230. At 10:16pm on 24 Apr 2009, AndreainNY wrote:
224. happylaze: Yeah, whatever. Straight and high are two very different states. Your writing reflects that.
A little sanctimonious aren't you.
Would you rather dine with a Pot head or a clean cut pedophile , because when it comes down to it a lot of the people on the news being arrested for that stuff are pretty straight looking.
You'd go for the non pot head.
Your who reason for superiority is that you don't take drugs.
Well I don't have a single prescription and have not taken any pharmaceuticals with the exception of some anti biotics in 20 years.
No asprin no prozac nowt.
tell me about chemical purity.
I Don't know what you take, but if you spend more than 0 seconds in the morning on it you are an addict.
;) In my world that makes me feel superior.
So do you see how sad your drug superior comments are to me.
Though I do think you worth answering because you are really so offensively blind to yourself.
But you don't call people names do you ninny.
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now to the topic of conversation and St doms comment 229.
well said.
I find the hypocrisy of blaming the catholic church for sex scandals and the fervour over abortion.
Most american churches obsess over these.
and not all churches are full of baby eaters.
Just to point that out to some.
231 Well said gary.
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#76 Happylaze
I recall only a few lectures on abortion at the Catholic school I went to.
Fortunately the amount of direct "religious instruction" was tiny: 1 hour per week, max, with very occasional guest appearances from a man in a smart cassock. (I wish they'd had those wide-brimmed hats, like they do in Italy. God, I'd still love one).
But in any case, it was a 13 to 18 experience, and almost every body there already knew where 'Rome-Corp' stood on the matter. We were even encouraged to have some debates amongst ourselves in the final years, but most had pretty much made up their minds long before, so it wasn't really an interesting issue. (I still remember remember embarrassing my mother in church with what I thought, when I was four years old, so they were way too late in some respects).
#231 Gary_A_Hill
"Looks like you can (have) the least fun as a Catholic ... "
"On the contrary, the most fun is had by breaking the rules."
Yes, I think that 'Catholic-guilt' does increase the pleasure. I think that this could be one of the unspoken reasons for the success of the church. I would be interested to know other peoples' thoughts on this from the stand-point of other religions.
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We on this post are so eager to condemn any people of any faith whatsoever that we are in danger of stooping to the level of mocking, and baiting, and disrespect that we so rightly condemn in They-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named- who degrade this site with their disrespect.
Please, respect each person's right to believe as they so choose.
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I wonder what Father Guido Sarducci has to say about all this.
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185 Hesiodos
Thanks for the Calvin & Hobbes. The last of the truly great daily cartoons.
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239, thefrogstar -
When I was a teenager at Jewish camp (the kind of camp where we had classes instead of archery and hikes), a bunch of us would hide out in one of the cabins, cutting lectures and listening to a contraband cassette: "Jesus Christ Superstar." Until we were caught by a sanctimonious counselor who confiscated the tape and reported us. We all got extra kitchen duty. I've always been fond of that soundtrack, probably because it was illicit the first time I heard it.
I never could figure out why it was frowned upon there because it certainly wasn't reverent to Jesus.
What was really annoying was that the kids who were having sex under the cabins and skinny-dipping in the pool at night never got in trouble, while my bunch was sent up for listening to music.
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240, Via-Media -
While I respect you, I simply cannot have respect for beliefs that to me are utterly ridiculous, foolish, and can be downright dangerous. To ask me to have respect for these beliefs is to expect me to be hypocritical. Hypocrisy is something I do not respect either.
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240, Via.
There are those of us who do not respect any religion. We express what we think. Why is that disrespect any different then your disrespect of us. Religious people do not have an aura that protects them from protest, although usually they think they do.
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239, thefrogstar.
"Yes, I think that 'Catholic-guilt' does increase the pleasure. I think that this could be one of the unspoken reasons for the success of the church. I would be interested to know other peoples' thoughts on this from the stand-point of other religions."
It was not all that long ago that all sexual affairs were taboo, regardless of any particular regligion. That made them much more fun. I don't remember the guilt part.
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180. At 09:27am on 24 Apr 2009, RomeStu wrote:
47 young-mr-grace and 161 kscurmudgeon
"on the idea that those who never heard about Jesus cannot accept him and therefore by default are damned ....."
I recommend to both of you that you read the first four chapters of the letter to the Romans for yourselves. You will see that although Paul is primarily interested in explaining human unworthiness and salvation among Jews and Gentiles, he also talks about God's approach to the whole human condition irrespective of time, place, or culture. Abraham is the example that speaks directly to the original question.
RomStu seems to throw out the whole record because he does not approve of St. Paul. Nonetheless, Paul is one of the founding leaders of Christianity, and has been recognized as a valid expositor from biblical times.
"The medieval church position was clear - no Jesus,tough luck, you're in hell. "
The mediaeval church was long on faith and short on compassion. You choose it as your standard for Christian thought?
175. At 07:49am on 24 Apr 2009, David_Cunard wrote:
#169. KScurmudgeon: "Sin is a matter of morality."
"No, it's a matter of opinion. The catalogue of "sins" described by the Roman Catholic Church is not the same as other churches;..."
Did you completely miss my argument? I must apologize to you. This discussion is not about 'sin', it is about the elementary duties of being human, i.e., morality. Institutional definitions of sins are beside the point. How we should behave toward each other was my point.
KScurmudgeon
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gunsandreligion # 221.
Thank you for the guide.
Many remark that it appears you have the least fun as a catholic, and the greatest fun is breaking the rules.
With the advent of commercial enterprise attempting to make a fast buck with their immediate introduction of "Obama condoms" [slogan- "use with good judgement"] perhaps the RC Church feels they have been out-manoevered, and are now behind the times..
Could a re-think by the power at the top be the answer.- Vatican condoms.! { slogan- Holy, holy holey- Use with gods' judgement}.
It would restore a little excitement into the mundane life of many a catholic doing their duty. The coffers would be replenished, the confessional would be working overtime, and there is the probability of filling future pews at a time when church numbers are deteriorating.
By attempting to level the playing field they would ensure that filling ones' boots would support the church, remove the necessity to commit a sin, and it would make waterboarding look like childs' play when you have your own personal Russian roulette game going.
p.s. [For those untouched by the pressures of belief who wish to be green and patriotic, the company also makes McCain and Palin brands with their individual catchy slogans, just for disheartened republicans]
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frogstar.
cheers. similar for me.
OS
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194. dpb1997, Barack a 'Muslim Plant'
Sounds like you are a plant too, the type that needs watering twice a day.
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I am English and live in a Catholic dominated country. There are killings on a daily basis, theft, adultary and everything under the sun. However, because they get forgiven for their sins whenever they goto confession they continue to commit these offenses.
Most have never read the bible they just believe what they are told and if they question anything they are told all sorts of crazy stories.
The catholic church is out of date and if its to continue must overhaul everything about it but fortunately they will not so it will evenntually collapse. Unfortunately not in out lifetime.
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244 bere54
245 allmymarbles
I did not find either of your previous posts offensive or disrespectful, but there were several people whose posts started descending into mockery. Questioning belief systems is good, and I don't think that there is an honest human- believer or not- who does not have to deal with that questioning. But as some of the others have done, calling all believers in any religion idiots or delusional is juvenile and rude.
As a believer I do not blindly the words of others, but struggle daily. It is a deliberate choice- and I understand agnostic and atheist positions far better than might be expected. It would be far easier not to believe, and yet some still do.
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251. At 09:43am on 25 Apr 2009, letshaveit wrote:
letshaveit, I read your post. I agree with what you said. I am from the United States. I suggest if you are old enough to drink alcohol and have a beach chair to sit back and enjoy the entertainment----anytime religious people self destruct---just like Obama going to Notre Dame. Some Catholics want him there and some don't, they can't even make up their mindless minds.
Hello from Pennsylvania. Take Care.
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As Henry VIII observed, "Where in the Bible does it say anything about a Pope?"
I guess the king was a poor student of Greek. The New Testament does mention bishops, the Pope is just another title for the Bishop of Rome.
Plus, secular authorities cannot be the head of the Church. If Henry VIII was a more observant student of the Greek. He would have realized that point as well. Christ is the head of the Church.
The Church is about loving God by following His commandments, it is not about remaking a spurious emotional experience for its members and revising the commandments to fit one's preferences.
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253
"i am from the united states"
no kidding?
really?
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Ref. 152, marbles
"Peculiar reasoning."
Yeah, ok.
I need more time to think on this topic. It's interesting, but completely new to me.
I don't buy the premise that business and religion are the same, but I admit, I haven't come up with the argument to counter the premise.
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254, maximus.
"The Church is about loving God by following His commandments, it is not about remaking a spurious emotional experience for its members and revising the commandments to fit one's preferences."
The ten commandments are common to all societies (religious and otherwise), and the Catholic church command claim them as their rown. Without these moral precepts there would be a lawless and chaotic world.
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256, Andy.
Thank you for trying to understand the point of view of the nonreligious.
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Obama needs to promote church activities as religion brings love towards God and happiness in the heart of people taking the name of God. Especially during the hard time of recession when the unemployment and fustration is high, nothing better then God's name to divert the attention of common man from harsh realities and make him not a anti-social but a God fearing and loving person who has faith the God will
help him out of this difficult times. There is no better Ambassador of Churches then
President Obama.He needs to win the hearths here too. As Gods faith can shift mountain of problems from one place to another. He needs to address this issue seriously.
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Rajeevbat and #259.
Baloney!
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All4USA and #51.
Baloney and cant!
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US Catholics are not at war with the President. Shocking as it may seem US Catholics use contraception, get divorced, skip church on Sunday and even sometimes have abortions. As usual Justin tells us more about his own prejudices than the USA.
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The church would do better if they concentrate on their problems of pedophile priests than try to match political wits with the President which they can't win.
Also, the Catholic church in all of the Americas (Mexico to the tip of South America) is an Hispanic Church, not an Irish one like in the USA. Hispanics, especially Mexicans, do not trust the Irish Catholic Church in the USA and for good reasons.
The truth is, there wouldn't be a no European Church of Rome to speak of if it wasn't for Hispanics. That is one reason why Hispanics in the Americas should break away from the Church of Rome and elect their own popes! Both the Church of Rome and the Irish Catholic Church in the USA are a let down for Hispanics.
Until that happens, the church of Rome will continue to break apart in the US.
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51, all
259, rajeev
Sentiments needed in the time of plague and famine to keep people from dispairing (and to keep church in power), but naive and outdated in this 21st century. We tell the children there is a Santa Claus, but at least we know we are lying.
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263, foxtrot.
I think many of us realize that the church of Rome is rather laisser-faire and the Irish churck of America is more doctrinaire. What has not been discussed is the reason for this diffrence. Northern Europeans have a more black and white view of the world and are given to inflexible logic. So whether these people become Catholic or Protestant, or anything else, culture will determine how that religion is expressed. Latins, on the other hand have a more jaded view of authority and are therefore less easy to control.
As a second-generation American I was undoubtedly influenced by the prevailing northern Eueopean culture. So knowing I was Catholic I felt I should know what Catholicism was. (My family, of Italian heritage, never went to church, and none ever received first communion.) So, as the first in generations, I went to a Catechism class. (There was another reason for this. I hated school, and if I attended the class I got Wednesday afternoon off. A big plus.) An Irish nun taught the class and viewed me with squinched eyes because of my Italian surname. She knew what I didn't. The stuff we studied seemed rather strange and in some ways pervy.
One day I confronted my grandfather and told him he was in mortal sin because he did not go to church on the required days and never received communion. He said to me, "Who told you that nonsense?" "Why would I talk about my life to a priest who leads an abnormal life and has no understanding of marriage and children?" What my grandfather said made sense, but I was very young and had to think it through. I even told him he could not call himself a Catholic. He replied that he was born a Ctholic and would die a Catholic. That didn't make any sense to me at all. But as I got older I saw this as a great cultural difference that transcended religion.
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In my OPINION, not only the Catholic Church is a big lie, but so is the entire Christian Church in America. They should stay away from politics and pay taxes just like everyone does.
During my life time I have witness many things which has led me to disagree with the Catholic faith. Take one Catholic saying that it's the best faith in the world because where else could a "Christian" sin for six days and confess his sins on the 7th day (Sunday), go on a picnic and than start all over again on the 8th day. Protestants, on the other hand, don't ever confess their sins! Is it any wonder why most US political leaders are "born again" protestants? Do I need to mention names?
The truth is, I cannot force myself to believe in a religion that worship a poor soul impaled or nailed to a cross and suffering untold agony. To worship torture is not my cup of tea. I'll leave that to the past political Administrations.
But than again, that is what fundamental religious dogma is all about, isn't it?
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If culture transcends religion in the West, so it does in the East. Islam came into being on the Arabian Peninsula. Through warfare it spread westward and eastward. Persia, a non-Arab nation with a distinguished past, was overrun. As time passed there was a schism in Islam and Persia broke away for what was presumably a religious reason, but was in fact cultural. The newly created Shia venerated saints, marked graves, made graven images and had a famous vinyard in the south. It allowed the celebration of some Zorastian holidays. It also gave birth to the mystical Sufis ("whilring dervishes," as known to the West). The funadmentalist, predominantly Arab group, the Sunni, considered them heretics.
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To post 263.
Being born into and raised as a Catholic back in the middle 30's and early 40's, I followed my devoted parents to church on Sundays.
What made me aware of the teachings of the Holy Roman Empire was a visiting Mexican priest waking up the entire congregation that early Sunday morning by saying "God had a special place reserved in Hell for hypocrites!"
Even at that early stage in my life, I discovered what "hypocrisy" meant.
After that, it was easy for me to avoid going to church and if I couldn't be a "good" Catholic, I couldn't be good at any other religion.
Long ago, someone said that "when I was a child, I played with childish things, but when I became older I laid childish thing behind."
It has come to the point where I want to believe there is a supreme being somewhere, somehow, but I just can't identify with it.
But unlike the Catholic Church in "America", I can at least identify with President Obama and the mess he inherited from the former occupants in the White House, and mostly what he is trying to do to remedy the disaster inflicted to America. And nd he is having a hell of a time doing it. He does not need the Church meddling in his affairs.
And for the record, I do resent the Church of Rome and the Catholic Church in America trying to impale him on a cross!
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foxtrot.
Have you noticed that there is no Western religion that extols happiness. They are all based on misery of some sort. And priests, ministers, and rabbis wear black, the color of death. The Pilgrims, those terrible bigots, wore brown, white and black. The only joy offered is god's love, a very iffy reward, especially as I can't see myself sitting adoring for all eternity. I'll take the pleasures of life, thank you.
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all.. (#269) "Have you noticed that there is no Western religion that extols happiness?"
Isn't Epicurianism a western religion?
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To 269.
An Atheist once told me that he was the only free thinking individual on the planet. He added he didn't have "a cross to bear" like most "Christians" do with all the fundamental dogma they are brain washed with (enslaved is more like it).
I for one, believe only in the Constitution of the United States. It's the only "bible" I know. It odd to realize the US right wing "Christian" coalition republican political pundits tried to dispose of the sacred document during the last eight years.
Many years ago, I took a sacred oath to protect and defend the US Constitution from it's enemies, foreign or domestic. I have always honored that oath.
As far as I am concern Catholic fundamental dogma or whatever is not even an option. The freedom to express myself, protect myself, defend myself and my people and my country come first!
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American President Obama and the Roman Catholic Church need to come to negotiation. I believe that abortion should be legalized though. I respect the Latin rite Catholic sect of Christianity but I must admit that they focused too much on anti-abortion and I believe that priests should be permitted to date and marry.
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269 allmymarbles
Terrible bigots the Puritans definitely were, but the black-and-white, big buckle shoe thing has been proven to be another one of those cultural myths of the Washington Irving frame- like George Washington's cherry tree. Many of the New Englanders, dour as they could be, also could be quite fashionable.
I think only about half of the signers of the Mayflower Compact were Puritans, too, and this ratio persisted despite the evils of theocracy. Church attendance was not compulsory, and they often had a heck of a time filling the pews.
And I can attest to the fact that not all practitioners of Islam, Judaism, or Christianity (even Catholicism)practice misery- we see the message as one of joy. And my pastor wears a Pittsburgh Steelers tie, and ends his sermons early on game days.
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270, Gary.
"Isn't Epicurianism a western religion?"
No, it is a philosophy, which is often equated, in error, with excess. The epicurians believed in experiencing all the good things of life, but never to indulge in excess.
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272, taek.
I disagree with you. The Catholics have a right to believe whatever they want. And we have to right not to be Catholics. The notion that Obama should "negotiate" with the church is outrageous. What they believe is none of his business, and what he believes is none of theirs.
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273, Via.
I don't say that religion doesn't permit the occasional giggle. But the basis of all of them (those of the book, iat least is dour.
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276 marbles
At least in this neck of Penn's Woods, hellfire and damnation went out of fashion several decades ago. Most of us realized it was obscuring the central message of the faith, which isn't at all dour. And even some of the Catholics are coming along (but the Orthodox beat us all by centuries...)
The Bible-bangers haven't gone away, and they're still out there, trying to convince the rest of us that they're on the only true path. If ostriches truly stuck their heads in the sand, they'd find it already occupied.
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277, Via.
If what you say is true they should give up their black vestments and Catholic clergy their hypocrital vows of chastity. They should also not baptize babies to cleanse them of original sin. While they are at it, they should not make crucifixon a virtue.
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278, further.
What they are trying to do, especially the Catholics, is cloak their dismal precepts in acceptable public relations blather. Do you think the public does not understand this? They do, and the church dies a little more each day. Even the would-be clergy doesn't buy it anymore. Witness the shortage of priests and nuns.
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The Catholic Church believes absolutely in the Biblical dictum, "Go forth and multiply". Just how much multiplication is enough - 12 billion? 18 billion? 24 billion?
When the food runs out, when there is not enough drinking water, when arable land is exhausted, when the Four Horsemen of the Apocolypse have ridden out, and war, famine, pestilance and death rule the world, will dogma change?
The short answer is NO, that would mean admitting hundreds of years of Papal encyclicals were wrong. Let me remind the church of another Biblical saying - from Matthew 13-13, "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand"
Sums up dogma perfectly.
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278/279 Marbles
I agree with you wholeheartedly about the Catholic vows of celibacy, and this- along with male-only leadership- more than anything else has driven people from the call to priesthood. But this is a hierarchy, one of some 1800 years of history, and as such is slow to change. It's not a justification, just an explanation- they struggle with adapting to the modern world, without giving up traditions and the core message.
I fully expect to see the church abandon celibacy within the next 50 years, perhaps to follow the Orthodox Church model.
As far as clerical vestments, not all clergy wear robes anymore, and even Catholic priests are not required to wear the collar.
All of these, though, are just the trappings of faith- the practice and organization of Christian churches vary wildly, but the central message doesn't change.
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278 Marbles
Original sin is such a complex topic that I won't burden the post with a discussion, but it comes down to an admission that we aren't perfect, and cannot become perfect on our own.
And not all churches practice infant baptism. For those that do, some see it as a promise by the parents and church to bring that child up in the faith. I haven't heard any of the moderate protestant churches discussing original sin in a baptismal context.
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There is plainly a schism between socialism and religion.
There can only be one true faith which is either a form of totalitarianism or democracy.
Many socialists, particularly, socialist intellectuals are not confused about their faith because many are aethiests but church leaders are just as confused by political spin as every one else.
Socialism simply sells most of the church's messages but with envy promoting division as a mandatory extra.
When politicians are placed in your front room every day, religion would take a back seat, if it wasn't blocked at the front door.
Unless you missed it, election night for Obama was closer to spiritual experience than anything the church has come up with in the last hundred years.
I'm rarely in a church, but I recognise the phrase that faith can move mountains is not the sole property of the church.
What I can't understand is why political commentators are blind to the similarities and fail to focus on the speeches which highlight who is responsible for schisms or grand canyons, if you prefer it.
It's quite simple.
If any religion is drowning, you look for someone or something that is forcing its its head underwater, intentionally or unintentionally.
Ask yourself would any priest have retained any credibility if he had used Bill Clinton's famous "no sex with that woman" speech?
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@211
and yet, on the other hand, if this is the quality of "conversation" we can expect on the topic, then I suppose it's a good thing we do have a Catholic Church, to act as a counterbalance to all this inane yammering.
and p.s. Notre Dame is not an extremist institution. Of course they'd be happy to have the president talk there. Why on earth wouldn't they?
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280, pol.
"The Catholic Church believes absolutely in the Biblical dictum, "Go forth and multiply". Just how much multiplication is enough - 12 billion? 18 billion? 24 billion?"
Blah, blah, blah. Practicality and necessity trump dogma any day. Catholics use birth control.
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If people were educated they would not beleive in the fairy tales that religious leaders want them to beleive.They might ask themselves questions on why are we here but education would give them the answers.
More and more people disassociate themselves from religions the French,the British,the Citizens of the USA.Unfortunately there are still too many simple minded people who give credit to the crazy minded clerics of all the religions
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281, Via.
That the church would make adjustments in their dogma to hold on to its members is even worse than their pursuing the same drivel. It marks them as hyprocratical and opportunistic.
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282, Via.
I have the advantage of being old. Time was that baptism erased the original sin of the child's parents. You got it - sex. Now they are changing their story to fit into the modern world and keep their flock.
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For the record, in Islam sex is a positive good.
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247. KScurmudgeon,
I will read your reference and I hope it provides an answer
You're all doing very well !!
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In my opinion I believe in science not religion which is nothing but a bunch of superstition hogwash anyway. To bad we all can't just get along.
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Stories like this only make me proud that we in Britain booted the Vatican's political influence out centuries ago. With the Papal record of siding with Nazis and every extreme right-wing Government in existence, they are a very loopy and sinister cult.
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twotommy2 (#291) "To {sic} bad we all can't just get along."
Bad-mouthing the religious faith of others is no way to "get along."
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Gary again rare agreement .
Two tommy I really spend no time away from these threads thinking about God etc.
I'm into science as well.
But as an agnostic I would say you have a lot of faith in science.
and that can be almost religious.
I like smithing they like going to church.
Big deal.
as long as they remain harmless.
IE not aggressive about it.
What ever the religion.
There are plenty of people out there that seem to have no belief but actually do.
Do you deride them when they say they do?
Why care.
People believed the economy was sound abortion was more important than healthcare war and peace put together and that the mission was over .
I would be more worried about those belief systems than some one who seeks solace on a regular basis with their god.
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292. At 3:59pm on 27 Apr 2009, RFC- more-trophies-than-anyone wrote:
Stories like this only make me proud that we in Britain booted the Vatican's political influence out centuries ago. With the Papal record of siding with Nazis and every extreme right-wing Government in existence, they are a very loopy and sinister cult.
Some very notable Brits did side with the nazi's at first.
the church had a lot of people to protect from the nazi's.
do you think the resistance had no churches.
DID YOU NEVER SEE THE DIRTY DOZEN ;)
Most people protect their own first. Not very charitable but true.
look at wars we have going. To protect americans (supposedly) america attacked Iraq.
heir own ( though one other nation is covered in the US family).
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There is an article in The New York Times today about atheism. A poll shows that the present rate of 15 per cent is almost double the figure for 1990. I don't believe the earlier figure. Probably people are just being more honest now. I can remember in my college days when I would say I was an atheist, someone would say that, no, I was a pantheist, or something else more acceptable. Ten per cent of South Carolinians claim to be athiests - so down there you have the religious right, the atheists, and people in the middle. That should put a dent in our perceptions.
It seems a lot of atheists are organizing. Can you believe it? How can you make an organization based on nothing? It is like organizing free thinkers. Well, at least they are drawing attention to our existence, but they can't count on me as a member.
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As a lapsed Catholic I recently tried to return to the fold. I found the right wing of the Church to be in such predominance, that I felt as though I, as a liberal, truly was not welcome. If you do not tow Ratzinger's line, you are a persona non grata. That is just the way it is. They want those who disagree with the Vatican on gay marriage, female ordination, birth control, abortion (I am anti-abortion, but I oppose criminalizing it), and mandatory celibacy to just get out of the Church. And that may be what I will have to do. I hate to be run out of an institution which I feel is my spiritual home, but those on the right are a very intolerant lot. Mind you, I do not expect the Vatican to change its policies merely due to public opinion. And I am willing to settle for dialogue on the issues. But what I get is just blatant rejection of my views -- views which are legitimate.
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297, Dave.
What you might also be meeting is hypocracy. These same people who purport to disagree with you practice birth control, for instance. To prove my point, as these hard-liners how many children they have.
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Yes, allmy . . . I am finding it hard to understand how people can be so hardline and live in the real world. So maybe I better try to stick it out. But I feel like there is a certain rigidity of thought which is really stifling. I am struggling with this now.
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299, Dave.
One of the problems I have with the church-going is their hypocracy. Because they feel they should be moral (according to their denomination) they say all the right moral things. I was talking about this to an evangelical minister and he said the met with this constantly and didn't much like it, but that it went with the territory.
Maybe you should speak out more.
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The BBC ceases to amaze me, their anti-catholic stance is all to common. Never a good word to say about Americans or the Catholic church.
Of course, when it comes to Islam the BBC hides in a little corner with its 'one must no offend approach'. The fashionable left loves to attack Christianity at every corner as it is a safe option. Now, talk of islam and you can be branded a racist, bigot, intolerant etc etc.
Islam the fastest growing religion in the World. - But of course, according to the BBC we would should only be concerned with America and Christians.
The BBC is a coward as it only attacks those who won't hit back. That's what I was taught bullies were called at School.
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President Obama leaves no room to budge for the Catholic Church and the followers of the church. His positions on abortion, religious values vs. modern values, are so one sided and hostile to the other that there is little a Catholic can do to reconcile belief with politics. Can a catholic condone abortion? No. Can catholic hospitals continue to function if doctors are now made to disobey the hypocratic oath and take life at will? No. The hospitals will no longer be free to practice their faith as an institution, and individuals are being ridiculed for their beliefs. The bible says to render unto Caeser, what is Caeser's and to God, what is God's. Catholics will not render to Obama what belongs to God, and that is their faith.
The president has promised change, nothing will stop this mission. Catholics cannot play both sides.
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301, Dinesh.
I am very familiar with Islam, having lived in the Middle East a very long time. I do not see Moslems as the crazed zealots depicted in the media, nor do the majority of my fellow bloggers. They are, for the most part, too sophisticated to fall for that propaganda. You will find a couple of rather nasty types, but that is about it, and we attack them when they get too annoying.
Many of the people on this blog are atheists. I am one of them. The reason people like me lash out at Christian religions is because, through politics, they seek to force their beliefs on others. If we are silent on Islam it is because it does not intrude on us domestically.
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302, Ricram.
Does the government force Catholics to have abortions? Does the government force them to use contraceptives? What is your problem? It seems to me that people like you are bullies. You are trying to force everyone to adhere to your beliefs. Do what you want for yourselves, believe what you want, but don't try to bully us. Bully your own people - the Catholics who use contraception and practice abortion. There are plenty of them so you have a lot of work to do. Leave the rest of us alone.
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Ms Marbles, I could never be certain enough to be an Atheist, but I would love to be an Anarchist if only somebody would tell me the rules!
Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know.
Keep your mouth closed.
Guard your senses.
Temper your sharpness.
Simplify your problems.
Mask your brightness.
Be at one with the dust of the Earth.
This is primal union.
He who has achieved this state
Is unconcerned with friends and enemies,
With good and harm, with honor and disgrace.
This therefore is the highest state of man.
Lao Tzu
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302, Ricram, futher to above.
How many brothers and sisters do you have? I'll bet you come from a small family. How can that be if your parents are good Catholics? Maybe you have some work to do with your own family. Start by talking to your parents. (Hypocrates really annoy me.)
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305 ed
"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know"
I'm not sure this brand of ancient wisdom is going to please many people on a blog! But then by saying that I prove that "I know nothing!"
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306 marbles
"(Hypocrates really annoy me.)"
Was it something about his oath you took offense to?
I have to admit that I believe the initial mis-spelling (hypocracy) was my own some weeks back. It was quickly picked up on (DC ?) and corrected.
For the record ..... hypocrisy and hypocrite. (from the ancient greek for stage actor)
Although I still like hypocracy best - definitely by me as government by lying politicians.
PS marbles - pedantry aside, I agree 100% with your post. These fundamentalists should look to the log in their own eye .... as it says in some book somewhere.
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305. Ed.
Anarchy has gone out of style. You were born too late. Lao Tsu (Tse?) seems to be describing a coma. Have I got that right?
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308, RomeStu.
Thank you for correcting my spelling. After the mods passed it, I noticed it was wrong. Unfortunatley I write fast and never edit, so there are always typos and misspellings. Once I even had my hands on the wrong keys and something (czech?) found its way to the blog. (I liked that one.)
What is a "log" in their own eye? I remember something about a mote, but I never a log.
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Motes and beams, but no coma.
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311, Ed.
I found when I took a philosophy class that the subject didn't interest me at all. The best thing about the class was the professor who said his main purpose was to have us develop our own philosophies. The books I read could each be summed up in one sentence. When Descartes said "Cogito ergo sum" he could have stopped right there. And, anyway, every child has that thought long before he ever hears of Descartes. As for Plato's Republic, I would rather go to purgatory than read it again. Plato spends a lot of time saying justice is each man doing what he is best at, or something like that. Again, one sentence would have done it.
We had to write a term paper on a philosopher of our choosing. Mine was on someone rather looked down upon as being simplistic (I can't remember his name) who said happiness was the sum of separate joys - the more joys the more happiness. Made sense to me. I squeezed out five pages, double-spaced, and much to my amazement got an A. Gustave M., who sat next to me, got a B for his enormous treatise and looked furiously at my flimsy little paper. Since then it has been my philosophy to express myself in writing as succinctly as possible.
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#265 allmymarbles,
You have my sympathy.
If I had been made to do catechism classes as well as church on Sundays, it would have been, well, cataclysmic.
Fortunately I was spared because I went to a catholic school.
When Morrissey sang "Everyday feels like Sunday", he struck a chord with me.
(And that was before I ever lived in Morecambe....)
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313, thefrog.
"If I had been made to do catechism classes as well as church on Sundays, it would have been, well, cataclysmic."
Who said I went to chruch on Sundays. We never went to church. And I wasn't made to go to catechism class. I did it to get out of my regular class on Wednesday afternoons and to find out what my supposed religion was all about. After I finished up the catechism class that was it for Catholicism, and religion in general. I think atheists are born, not made. I can remember one of those very rare Easters when we went to church. I was very young and when the priest gave his sermon (it was that fire-and-brimstone Fulton J. Sheen) and all the people were nodding in agreement I thought it was terrible that they were all lying. We were taught not to lie and here were all those adults - lying.
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313, thefrog.
I had to look up Morecambe. It sounded African.
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315 allmymarbles,
Morecambe is one of the run-down Lancashire (English) coast towns that can be more than a little bit depressing.
However, when the sun shines and you turn your back on the town, the view across the bay to the hills of the Lake District is unparalleled in all England.
Perhaps there's a religious metaphor in that.
("I shall lift up mine eyes to the hills, whence cometh my strength...")
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#301 Dinesh_Patel.
The truth is (and many of you don't know the meaning of truth), if it wasn't for the BBC sponsoring these posts we wouldn't be discussing subjects the US government doesn't want it's citizens to discuss. Most of the US corporate national news media as well as the established fundamental dogma groups inside and outside of government supports that intrusion. The result is, most US citizen will jump at the chance to say something worldwide. We want the world to know not all of us are too stupid to believe what the government tell us. So don't knock it, please.
to Marbles 303.
Paul Starobin of the National Journal stated that "in 2008, exit polls revealed 12% of the electorate or 15 MILLION VOTERS identified themselves as non-believers. That is bigger than the Hispanic vote (9%), the gay vote (4%) or the Jewish vote (2%) and it is competitive with the African American vote of (13%)".
Is it any surprise why President Obama won the elections with a high margin?
I know for a fact that most Hispanic males are not true Catholics, they just say it to please their wives or play the church's game of hiding their hypocrisy.
The Catholic Church in America no longer has ability to convince the masses that to follow it's aged old practices is the proper thing to do. I expect some very drastic changes within the Catholic Church within the next few decades.
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Allmymarbles re: #300
Speaking out is good advice. I have been keeping my head down, but even doing that, I still don't feel I fit in with a conformist culture. So I might as well "raise a little hell."
Even though I am a believer, I do sympathize with some of the atheists' exasperation with organized religion. I do not like to question the spirituality of others, however. I do feel that is very presumptuous to try to force your religion onto people; and, on the flip side, to dismiss out of hand the sincerity/depth/reality etc. . .of others' spiritual beliefs.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
301 what part of America thread did you miss?
we know about Islam. we are reminded erroneously all the time about it.
So why not take some time to bash the christians.
though catholic is a hard one for me to just knock for the sake of it.(as any other)
Now americans I can knock them and their so called morality.
all day and night.
As to bullies.
You don't thing the anti abortionists are bullies?
or america?
the catholic church . it never bullies?
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Davefla I suggest you get a bit Jesus on the rest of the congregation.
Ask them where they stand on the death penalty . Global warming. make them face the reality.
(insert. I see marbles has said this.
" reclaim your church"
good luck
318 I like what you say here.
well said.
As a fence sitter. who has no faith but would be amused to see I was wrong.
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Marbles. I'm with ed . I'm never ;) one to say things are certain. so I'll stick to unbelieving agnostic.
I defend the churches only for the good they do. but do find the dogma (good film)( tiresome in the extreme.
301 302 exactly the type that seem to scare so many of us.
Frogstar
I did a kite flying demo on the bay once (keeping an eye out for them killer tidal returns)
Holker hall's up there .
I was wondering yesterday about cumbria.
I worked in a smithy there (can't remember where now) that was working on a big garden and house that was being built.(looked old etc). they had a roman pleasure or folly garden .
One way doorways and revolving room in a grotto.
Have you heard of it? If so what is that place called.
I'm not sure but I think the owner got in trouble for not getting the right Planning permission, though to be honest the place was built well.
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Frogstar & Ms Marbles,
As Seen from Morecombe
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321, Ed.
It looks like a lovely moonscape. I expected it to be green.
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310 marbles
"What is a "log" in their own eye? I remember something about a mote, but I never a log."
Matthew 7:5 says ... "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the mote out of your brother's eye."
A log is a big bit of blind hypocrisy that causes single issue politics among other things.
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321, Ed, I appreciate seeing the most beautiful part of the UK (ok, certainly England) where the sun plays a part in the picture. It always seemed overcast at best in Morecombe, or just up the road at Arnside, but I never noticed the rain in the lake district. And because of that, rain never bothers me now. Rain is fine. Umbrellas, though, are evil and should be banned.
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#322, marbles, at least you didn't say that you expected it to be foggy.
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322 allmymarbles,
I found you some better local photos at this link:
http://lifesabeach.bravehost.com/birkrigg.html
Perhaps I should have used the word "panorama" instead of "view". Panoramas are not easy to capture on camera (I only understood the phrase "big sky" went I first went to Wyoming and Montana).
And the light is important (the sun most definitely doesn't shine all the time in NW England!).
320 Happylaze,
No I'm afraid I don't know.
It's probably getting on for a decade since I was last there, though I still have relatives around Grange.
My coastal view currently looks eastward from the other side of the Atlantic. Sunsets aren't as good, but sunrise is nice (for those awake at that time).
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