Strategy and yet more strategy
You plant, you cultivate, you harvest! This the Axelrod dictum - indeed the Obama Doctrine. David Axelrod (Obama's chief strategist) used that precise phrase at a meeting with journalists here today.
Strategy strategy strategy. Does not impress all the folks back home and even those folks who are more kindly disposed towards the Obama White House are worried that tactics are being ignored or confused while everyone on Air Force One sits and thinks.
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While Obama seems to have misstepped by demanding adherence to
a UN resolution, in fact the major players in each case are third
parties. In Iran's case, Russia, with which it has extensive trade
relations, and China in Korea's case.
Both Russia and China fear an arms race if nuclear weapons proliferate.
In Russia's case, an arms race with us, in China's case, one with Japan.
So, while the Iranian and North Korean regimes may appear to be able
to independently determine their own nuclear policies, they are, in fact, not.
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I'm not sure what people are expecting Obama to do about this. Russia and China and dragging their heels, and I doubt more sanctions will make a difference. War is also extremely unlikely and would be very unpopular. So what is he left to do? More diplomacy and talk. Hardly encouraging but ultimately necessary.
I think the real question is why Russia and China are playing hard to get. To spite America and it's allies? To give them something else to worry about in the shape of North Korea? It's not Obama's response to this that dissapoints me, but Russia's and China's.
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I think that there is still yet to be a realisation that the USA is no longer a 'Super power' but is just a large country.
Obama has to understand that the politics of the world will be dictated by others outside his sphere of influence.
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Well, it's going to take quite a while for anything as subtle as that to take root. I'm not surprised it's falling on stony ground. Reading around some of the commentators, rather a large proportion of Americans still seem to think all you have to do in international relations is shout "Jump!" and wait for everybody to ask "How high?" instead of "Why?"
Most of the world is simply going to sit back and wait to see whether the seeds sprout up as roses (as promised) or just weeds again.
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Barack Obama should consider that China and Russia make satellites available to North Korea. They could arm missiles with thermo-nuclear warheads. Obama's uses flawed tactics. NK shows interest in a deadly launch against nearby targets. Pyong Yang options attacks against South Korea, Japan, and Taiwan. The long-range proposal is Hawaii. NK understands that an attempt to reach the United States will bring a barrage of interception missiles. Obama must negotiate a lower level of hostility. North Korea would avenge nuclear blasts on Hiroshima and Nagasaki during the war.
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"You plant, you cultivate, you harvest! This the Axelrod dictum - indeed the Obama Doctrine."
what is President Obama "planting" when he waxes lyrical about Islam in Turkey -- a country trying really hard to remain secular. what does he intend to "harvest"?
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5. At 11:05am on 07 Apr 2009, sean33z wrote:
"North Korea would avenge nuclear blasts on Hiroshima and Nagasaki during the war."
Why on earth would they want to do that? You have got either your geography or your history a bit mixed up.
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#5 Sean
"North Korea would avenge nuclear blasts on Hiroshima and Nagasaki during the war. "
I'm don't quite understand you here...So North Korea would nuke Japan/America/South Korea for vengenance against Japan/America for being nuked in the first place? What?
And if North Korea really did launch a nuke at Japan/South Korea/America, well, I wouldn't want to be in North Korea when they all decided to retaliate.....
#6 Jr
He is doing so because he understands there is more to be gained from Turkey than just having Turkey as an ally. Turkey have good relations with Syria and Iran and so would be a helpful partner in diplomacy in the region. If he went there and praised how secular Turkey was then Iran/Syria would take that as a swipe at them.
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I wonder if the N. Korean rocket failed or was shot down? After all, if the US Pacific fleet cruisers shot the rocket down, who is going to know? N. Korea does not have radars to track their own missile beyond 420 miles and even if they had, nobody would believe them if they said that the rocket was intercepted.
Russia and China have the techologies to detect anything like that happening but would they declare it openly? Not likely. That would just complicate the situation even further and that is not what both countries want. Russia and China want the six-party talks to be restarted, as for them the question about N. Korea is tigthly linked to the Far east military alliances and security. The Chinese and Russians are using their influence on N. Korea as a bargaining chip in the negotiations about the future military security in the that area. Any negotiations about North korean disarmement are likely to lead to discussions of the USA involvement, military bases and arms deals with Taiwan, Japan and South Korea.
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Further to my comment at #9
Also a shooting down of the N. Korean rocket will allow the US to tell Russia and China in a no circumspect way 'I am concerned about N. Korea, but do not think that I am not prepared to act'.
Perhpas there is lot more going on behind the scenes without us knowing.
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Everyone needs to watch this discussion ! http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04032009/watch.html It will make your blood boil !
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#10 Isenhorn
I doubt they shot it down, although it would be more comforting to know they did. I would like them to recover the rocket and prove it didn't reach orbit. Perhaps they could air drop the wreckage in pyongyang.....
And if anyone shot it down, it was probably Japan because it flew right over them!
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SaintOne #8.
"He is doing so because.." -- that's the most benign interpretation.
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The strategy of the Obama administration is a reflection of the realities that exist today. We remain the dominant military superpower, but our economic and financial problems limit our ability to engage in costly adventurism or pursue grandiose solutions such as the Marshall Plan. Whether we like to admit it or not, we need the help of Russia and the EU in solving the Iranian impasse, and we need China's, Japan's and South Korea's help in solving the North Korea crisis.
Restoration of relations with Iran depend, largely, on the outcome of the upcoming elections in that country, our policies and actions in Iraq and Afghanistan, and our position on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Policies perceived to be punitive towards Islam, the sovereignty of the Muslim world, and attacks on the traditions of that part of the world will continue to inflame passions and generate hatred and violence. We must make sure the Muslim world, not just Iran, understands that our objectives do not include an indefinite occupation of Iraq, that we are reconsidering the need for US military bases near Mecca and Medina, and we must put pressure on Israel to abandon its settlements, its blockade of the Gaza Strip, and recognize a sovereign Palestine. We must also make sure our military strategy in Afghanistan and Pakistan is focused strictly on destroying Al Qaeda, rather than direct interferrence in the internal affairs of countries in the region and/or plans to change their culture and traditions. We may not like the way they live, but that is none of our business.
The North Korea problem is, in my opinion, more complex and dangerous as we are dealing there with an isolationist regime consumed by paranoia, extreme poverty, and an exclusive focus on military might. Quite frankly, I don't think there is much the USA can do there, other than seek Chinese help and, most importantly, avoid provocations such as overt displays of US military might in the region. I believe that massive investment, financed by wealthy nations in the region, would do more to end the bellicosity of Kim Jong-Il than any displays of military power could ever do. He is, clearly, not intimidated by our fleet or our presence in South Korea.
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# 13 jr4412
I'm sorry, would you like to offer some kind of counter-arguement? All you have offered so far is some rhetoric questions that imply some form of "Obama is a Muslim" paranoia. Please give me what your interpretation of Obama's visit to Turkey, rather than that such a useless comment.
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This Bret Stephens chap you linked to Justin annoys me. His assertion that 'we' did the Japs a favour by nuking them goes beyond the pale. Also, I'm bored of these American nationalists moaning about the ineffectiveness of the UN when it doesn't do what they want it to do; yet are unsurprisingly silent when the UN doesn't do what they don't want it to do (like not denouncing Israel for breaking international law and inflicting crimes of terror). They just want the UN to be an extension of US foreign policy. If what the UN says is 'just meaningless words' then American nationalists like him are to blame.
I have my doubts that N Korea really has nuclear weapons. When they carried out their underground test a couple of years ago French monitors only reported a large explosion. They concluded that if it was a nuclear test it failed! This recent missile test seems to be in the same vein. IMO all this is hot air for N Korea to try to get diplomatic advantage over the US and regional allies.
Obama should remind these developing countries that have or aspire to possess nuclear arsenal that they have a moral duty to feed their citizens first.
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Hmmm, let's see...
Kim Jong Il: The money's running low again - time for an empty gesture. How about launching a missile that doesn't work?
South Korean people gesture, emptily, in the streets.
Japan: We need an empty gesture at the UN!
Russia and China: Ooh - careful! Make sure it's empty!
Obama: Gesture emptily? Yes, we can!
WSJ: people expect us to be anti-Obama. Better get Bret Stephens to gesture in that direction.
Ok, Justin, time to get back to actual politics.
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Ref 5, Sean
"The long-range proposal is Hawaii. NK understands that an attempt to reach the United States will bring a barrage of interception missiles."
I am not sure I understand your point. An attack on Hawaii is an attack against the USA, and it would elicit the same retaliation as a strike against the continental USA. North Korea is a country consumed by paranoidal fears, but I suspect the recent tests are designed to influence concessions from the USA and neighbors, and get financial help to overcome the extreme poverty in that country.
It would not surprise me if the "solution" and the end to this crisis involves massive financial aid to North Korea in exchange to symbolic lmited disarmament, such as what we saw a couple of years ago. In a way, what Kim Jong-Il is doing is nothing short of bribery.
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#17 Vague,
That was a nice gesture!
#16
"Obama should remind these developing countries that have or aspire to possess nuclear arsenal that they have a moral duty to feed their citizens first."
Despite what some people may think, Obama isn't a miracle worker! I highly doubt Kim Jong Il would go down that path, and I wouldn't expect any successor to do so either.
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Vague (17),
Well summarised.
;-)
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SaintOne #15 wrote:
".. rhetoric questions that imply some form of "Obama is a Muslim" paranoia."
I do not know what President Obama believes, as a person I think him charismatic and likeable.
I do know he's a lawyer, and lawyers thrive on differences and dispute - not harmony and agreement.
also, I saw an US TV clip where he used the word "stakeholder", a word often used by Tony Blair (also a lawyer) in the early days of his being PM; Blair's legacy is bad since he took the UK into an illegal war (Iraq, with hundreds of thousands of civilians dead).
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Thank you. It's like they're not even trying anymore, isn't it? Unlike The Sun, who came up with the glorious "It's all gone Pete Tong in Kim Jong Taepodong ding-dong". Nearly as good as the Super Cally one.
Meanwhile, everyone ignores Netanyahu and Lieberman, who really are crazy enough to nuke somebody.
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I am an Obama supporter in the UK but I have to tell you, he is losing my support faster than he is gaining it. If that is opening a dialogue and sowing seeds with the people of Europe, then the crop is already withering.
If he wants progress in the Middle East he needs to rein in Israel. The more he is silent on everything from the increase of settlements on Palestinian land, Israel's assertion that they are not bound by the US brokered Annapolis vision, ethnic cleansing and punishment of the Palestinian civilians for electing politicians Israel doesn't like, to the building of the land-grab wall that was declared illegal by the international court, the more he is admitting he is more concerned with keeping AIPAC happy than the people of Europe.
If he wants to move to new era in US relations with the rest of the world, he has to stop telling us that Al Qaeda's hate for the US is our problem.
Two own goals on his first trip to Europe.
I can't see him winning by full time.
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#23 reformedspindoctor: read back over SaintDominick's comments - he/she is usually spot on. And do, please, if you are planning to win the hearts and minds of us Yanks, refrain from soccer imagery.
President Obama, as few in this forum and very few reporters seem to have grasped, is an intelligent, forward thinking person who expresses himself in complete thoughts instead of soundbites. He speaks to adults in adult language, expecting that adults can hold more than one thought in mind for longer than 30 seconds at a time. Americans are scrambling to keep up with him, both in Congress and in the media. I must say it is exhilirating. Y'all over the pond, there, fish or cut bait.
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#23 Reformed
"If he wants progress in the Middle East he needs to rein in Israel."
/Agreed
#21 Jr
Ok I'm still not getting you. Your like him, but don't like the fact he was a lawyer? What has that got to do with his visit to Turkey and what you didn't like about his "waxing lyrical on Islam"?
And yes, Blair was stupid to go to war in Iraq in alot of peoples mind (mine included), but he also got (at least until now) peace in Ireland, which many people thought would not happen.
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carolinalady: It seems it's validation of your own adulthood and intelligence you seek.
Obama's strength has always been that he makes Americans feel they are respected and intelligent by extension. They can feel good about themselves because Obama makes such a good impression. No more embarrassment.
We already know Obama speaks well. Questions are starting to arise because people are starting to look beyond his speeches to his actions.
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Now the news black out has been lifted (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7988065.stm), when did you guys know you were going to Iraq? Or did you even get told you were?
I did predict a trip to "Western Asia" last week - http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/04/inside_the_g20_media_centre.html#P78041017
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SaintOne #25.
"..visit to Turkey and what you didn't like about his "waxing lyrical on Islam"?"
my fear is that the democratic, secular nature of the Turkish state, already beleaguered by relious, fundamentalist politics, may become more threatened as a result of President Obama's speeches (hasten to add, I've only seen clips on BBC & EuroNews so far, neither of which publishes full transcripts). still, we all know the power of (media) presentation - even if in the final analysis it turns out to have been a misrepresentation, the damage will have been done.
having said that, it has all been words so far, let us see what actions will follow, glad you endorsed #23.
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23 & 25,
May I join Saint One in approving.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
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23. At 2:10pm on 07 Apr 2009, reformedspindoctor:
I rather agree with you. The star wars and the terrorist thing looked rather as though he'd picked up something left over from the previous regime, just to show the guys at home he can stonewall at the wicket too, when he really should have asked for the new ball. He nearly ran himself out there, though. First Test no better than a draw, and I don't see him winning the Series, either.
(Yes, I know that's a bit contorted, but just for carolinalady, thought cricket might suit better. Didn't understand a word of that fishy stuff.)
I can't quite make out whether he (or more importantly, his administration) is really listening (and ready to compromise or consult) or just hearing and then telling us all what we ought to do that suits the US (for the time being) anyway. It doesn't look as though they spent the transition period all that productively thinking for themselves, or finding out very much, frankly. I don't think they've grasped Macmillan's old maxim, that the most dangerous thing in politics is "events, dear boy, events." And there are a few more nasty-looking events looming on the horizon.
If posters here are any guide, if, when he gets back to the US, and some of what he has been floating (nuclear arms reduction and so on) really sinks in and Congress has a think about it, assuming that's something they are capable of, I can see him landing in a lot of domestic bother.
That's not to say I don't think he's a marked improvement on the last one. At least he's got a brain.
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#28 Jr,
Thank you for clearing that up. I can see your point, although I think Obama has to tred a thin line in the sense that he has to use Turkey as a stepping-stone to Iran and Syria. Perhaps he over-compensated that fact, who knows. I took it that he was trying to enforce that a predominatingly Christian country can be chummy with a predominatingly country, without religion getting in the way. As you have pointed out, it could be he has stirred up something up unecessarily.
Let's hope whatever he was trying that it works out for the best (for everyone)!
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"That's not to say I don't think he's a marked improvement on the last one. At least he's got a brain." - british-ish
Yes, at least the question: "What was the US President thinking?" now makes sense!
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Seems all tactics and no strategy to me at the moment - maybe no big deal eleven weeks into the Administration, but sooner or later they're going to have to realise it isn't 1993. The US can't dictate the global agenda as it sought to then (for all the good that did us), and it's pointless trying to work out ways to do so, whether by "seduction", pressure or force. At some point they have to ditch the Clinton-Bush junk, and the sooner the better before it policy becomes still more mired in trying to retrieve a world order that nobody much outside Washington and a few European capitals wanted in the first place.
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#26 AndreainNY: don't insult older women gratuitously, and don't assume Southerners are stupid, either. I disagree politically with most of them but that doesn't mean I don't respect their intelligence.
#30 british-ish: I'm glad to see SOMEBODY else has a sense of humor here! I actually do understand the cricket imagery better than soccer -- I cornered a South African once and made him explain cricket to me as well as he could. Still don't get the tea part, though.
Remember, Europeans: the wheels of Congress grind exceedingly fine and very slowly. The President proposes (and he has proposed a lot recently) and the Congress disposes. Given the Republican Party's general state of disarray and denial lately, it may be that quite a lot of the legislation President Obama wants to have enacted will pass fairly soon. On the other hand, the GOP is waging guerrilla warfare on his nominations for cabinet posts and on the one remaining undecided Senatorial election from last November. They are attempting to delay these things to block super-majority votes in Congress until they can come up with something coherent to offer voters in 2010.
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@34: You are correct that Congress grinds exceedingly slowly. Giving them credit for "fine" is, in my opinion, incorrect (both in the quality and in the granularity sense).
BTW Which Carolina are you from (or currently in)?
As far as Obama is concerned, he may indeed be a good thinker (he's already established he's a good speaker). What I'm more concerned with is what's in his heart. Some, but certainly not all, early indications are not good (e.g. some of the directions that his appointees seem to be taking, and his apparent unwillingness to rein in the Dem leadership in Congress). That is already leading once again to overreaching, which will inevitably trigger an immune response from the American public. Funny how the political types don't ever understand that.
It's early yet, though. I'm keeping my powder dry, but continuing to monitor and sift, the same as with the last several administrations. None of them get everything (or even many things) right.
@17: Very well done, and probably more true than not. Once you consider that every word spoken or action taken by everyone on the political scene who has any clout at all (and in particular anyone operating at the Obama / Reid / Pelosi level) has already been carefully scripted, focus-grouped, sanitized, diced, sliced, and laundered, empty gestures and useless speech are more the rule than not.
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timewaits -
That went to page not found but it had a clue on it and it seems to be this one. The country of Strategy. Sounds like something from Orwell.
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Where are we? Appear to be on one Air Force One. Well this is a new adventure. When more arrive we will convince the pilot to fly us to the destination of our choice as we will not all fit in the galley. Suggestions anyone?
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Aqua -
My cat is not fat. Remember, he is muscular and big-boned!
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timewaits -
I hope you're not planning a hijacking. Are we going to ask the pilot nicely?
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38 bere - And short for his weight! Now if he was a taller cat...
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Bere
My cat considers herself a very fine full figured feline!
Face it, they are both fat but we love them! The added advantage is that they look so happy and content sleeping in that rocking chair!
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Forget simple galleys!
This is the 'Big Plane' the plane above all planes. We could probably put a Rugby field in this plane if we so choose. This is flying in your dreams: no airport security, no lost luggage, no cramped seating, no irritating seat mates....
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timewaits -
He is a tall cat! At least, when he stretches out he's very long. Does that count?
aqua -
How can he be fat when he's been on a diet for months? He's just a big boy with sort of a gut.
I will not stand for this dissing of my Evil Donald!
But I do love him even if he is just a tiny bit fat.
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39 bere- definitely! Those words are in the minutes of a meeting I attended. We were asked to come up with suggestions as to how we could get certain people to do "something." Beside my name was, "ask them nicely."
Our wish is the pilot's command. Where would you like to go? A couple of weeks ago I would have said, anywhere warm. But tonight as I sit here with the window open and a warm breeze coming in... We have been to Turkey, Paris, Russia, with way too much time spent in the States...
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This loaner computer smells funny and the little arrow has a ghost. All afternoon and evening I've been wondering what the funny smell is; knew it couldn't be me.
Question for those smarter than I: Should I pay $185 to have the screen replaced on my laptop, or spend $449 (minus $100 trade-in on mine) on a newer, refurbished, 10.4 OS iBook with one-year warranty? Daughter says no, because I am poor. But long-term view? (I can afford it.)
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44, timewaits -
Could we go to Scotland? Or would that be boring for Heloise?
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Timely One
A beach? Anywhere there is ocean as far as one can see, would that be good? Perhaps tropical or some island, just a passing thought and you may have other places that would be fun to visit. I love traveling!
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Cats and others (for some reason sam comes to mind) shold be cheered by this news. Of course they knew it all along.
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This looks like the cat for bere.
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bere, if you are to pay an extra $65 to get an updated machine with a 1 year warranty it sounds a good deal to me. If you can get your daughter to pay the difference then you have a wonderful daughter!
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seanspa - 1) that is a nice cat story and 2) What? is that a picture of in the first article? Eggs and chips or is that chips and eggs? Whatever it is, looks bad. Although my screen is going through a "yellow period" at the moment. It has turned green, baby blue and now yellow. It does need a rest. How do you feel about Scotland? Maybe to satisfy aqua we could go to a beach there.
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Bere
I am not a computer person but when repair of something old is almost half of what a replacement (even less with your $100. trade in) item would cost, it is time to buy something newer. You also have the advantage of a warranty. I tell you this from someone whose last computer was over ten years old before I gave it up. I just got a new one recently because my old computer just would not support the modern technology.
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Timely One
Scotland is very good!
I have never been there and now that Spring seems to be springing, it should be lovely. We can go to a beach some other time, later this Summer when I am craving water.
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50, seanspa -
Actually, the difference comes to about $250 (I must have muddled it for you to come up with $65). That includes $85 for transferring everything from my computer to the new one. But it still seems like a really good deal to me, and this is a guy I've been doing business with for five years and he does not cheat people (or at least he does not cheat me; don't know what he does to others!). I figured it as $449 minus $100 plus $85, and then deducted the $185 I would not be paying for the new screen. The problem is we don't know yet if the GB HD (whatever that is) on the newer machine is enough because we don't know what it is on the old machine, since we have to wait til they hook it up to an external monitor and check. And of course my daughter, though a confirmed Mac person, thinks I should just learn to use the PC she has waiting for me. But all my stuff is on the Mac! All my writing. From various old computers with older versions of MS Word for Macs and it probably won't transfer properly to a PC.
This is all very confusing and I really hate having to deal with computer stuff without my daughter here to help me.
Your #49 went to a page not found so I'll never know about the cat for me.
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51, timewaits -
How come you could get to the cat thing and I couldn't?
We don't have to go to Scotland; beaches are good too, though I like the waves crashing against cliffs kind and I think they have those in Scotland. But then that's not exactly a beach, is it?
I thought those were sausages in the picture. Is ice cream considered a fatty food?
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seanspa -
Oops. I just realized how you came up with the $65. Math is not my forte. Life in general is very confusing.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmr6OeKEe_o&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JynBEX_kg8&feature=related
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Do cats make sense?
Me out.
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Waves crashing against cliffs also counts as a 'beach' to this desert rat. Anywhere that one can look out over the ocean, far beyond the horizon and imagine that the world just goes on forever is my idea of a beach. Oceans and deserts have a lot in common they make one think of some forever place, always just beyond reach.
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sean it looks delicious to me.
britishish like I said they never allowed me near a latin book but wouldn't it be more of "necroclausulaphiliacs."
bere Ice cream is not fatty food.
;)
them nice snosages are though I bet.mmmmm
Fat. and Puff go together.
on the new thread . my wasn't it. what is that maybe about?
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To Happy Coyote
Of course cats make sense, better than a lot of people do. I am tired.
Sleep children and peace attend thee, all through this night!
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61 aqua
g'Night.
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aquarizonagal # 59
"Anywhere that one can look out over the ocean......and imagine..."
Dreaming about a new tomorrow, remeniscing about yesterday, yet living the day that is today.
How right you are.
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57. At 04:21am on 28 Apr 2009, happylaze:
That wasn't how my cat thought at all. She was quite small, like the black and white one in the second vid, but would start lying on your feet, somehow make herself four times heavier than usual, and by morning would have worked her way up to the exact centre, so you woke up halfway out of the bed. Didn't matter how big the bed was, you still ended up falling off the side. (She could do that even with two of us in it.) I wondered sometimes if it was her idea of contraception. Never understood how she did it. "Give me a cat and I will move the earth".
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Mornin' all. I see we've beat a strategic withdrawal....
Bere, may I suggest you invest in one of the very inexpensive external hard drives and dump all your old data onto it. Then the GB capacity of the "new" computer (which seems an offer too good to refuse) is irrelevant.
As far as I know, tha external drive can then hold data (and backups) from both your "new" mac and the PC you should also accept. Two computers able to share data via a "third party" seems about as safe and versatile as you can get. And then, you can set the pc up as a "dual boot" machine and escape the chains of costly commercial software.....
All, when you get a 404 (can't find page), look for the <br /> in the address and delete it. Then press "return/enter" and you should get the page.
Sorry, but my attitude to cats is reciprocal with theirs to humans.
Off to check the red neck thread....
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Thinking well ahead (though we do seem to fill these left-over spaces around the world rather quickly these days) I think South Carolina might be left under-populated by the look of it. Might save Ed hunting further afield.
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british - I agree, have no idea why we have been taken to SC. Coincidentally I was there when talk was; would or would not the Governor accept the money? Why, I asked, would he refuse? Because he hopes to be the Republican candidate in 2012. What kind of reasoning is that? Is it not his job to represent the interests of the people of SC? I was also told there would be an uprising if he refused. News of one must be travelling by pony express as we have yet to hear.
Someone is sure to find a connection between SC and the ME to fill the thread.
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I do not have a cat, my son is allergic. Heard a dog/bed story last night. Ancient Golden Retriever unable to climb stairs, so the couple moved their bedroom to the ground floor! I can identify. Our dearly departed was not a big dog so could and would be carried if required.
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65, Heloise -
Thanks for the computer advice. Don't understand external hard drives and dual boots (I always buy my boots in pairs anyway) but will rattle this stuff off to my computer guy. Except then he will think I suddenly know what I'm talking about and will start babbling to me in a language I don't understand. I have tried deleting the br thingy and still go to page not found again.
Supposed to be in the 80s(F) today and then drop to the 20s tonight. Does this happen anywhere else?
While travelling down to Waitsfield yesterday, I ran into (not literally, had to stop for them) massive construction projects that could only be due to stimulus money. We are getting our bridges fixed. Glad our Republican governor is not as pig-headed as that other one.
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"You plant, you cultivate, you harvest!"
sounds like a manifesto for a happy plantation
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aqua & bere - I do not know why Heloise did not mention that Scotland has many beaches. Perhaps he does not want us to visit, although I find that hard to believe; charming, witty people that we are.
I live by a large body of water during the summer so completely understand the appeal. I can sit and watch the water flow by for hours.
69 bere - That is what I thought when Heloise gave you all that info. Uh oh! Perhaps you are not deleting the complete "b" bit - in seanspa's cat link, delete everything after stm. (highlight, delete, enter)
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Good Morning!
I also have a dog story. This cattle dog has found himself laid off due to sale of the goats. Unemployment does not suit him and he is too young to retire. We have to find him a new home. He is an excellent guardian and herder so desperate for work that he has tried to herd the cats. This was amusing to us but frustrating for him and irritating for the cats.
We think he may have employment prospects but they are in another state. So we may be away for a few days while he has his interviews. We shall be so sad to let him go but he will be happier with work to do.
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timewaits -
Once again you have translated Heloise into a very direct direction, and it worked. I was able to read about Fidel the library cat.
aqua -
I sympathize with you over your workaholic dog. I know you will miss him. I have heard that certain herd dogs will attempt to herd small children when nothing else is available. Does he do this to your grandchildren? I would think this would be less irritating to children than to cats, unless the children are so small that the herding knocks them down.
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64 lol Brtishish.
We had one like that;(.
but she left us.
was a sweet gravity field in her own right . not because of mass either.
on the SC tread it seems the issue of gun control ay be riseing so we have hope it will outpace the posts here.
personally I am using it to attack the pathetic post by Justin that yet again is so far from any mark one has to wonder if he had his eyes closed.
He just loves redneck american hospitality.
I know that sort of Brit.
I wonder how the terminally gullible get jobs as journalists.
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Darling Noman,
- "I live by a large body of water during the summer so completely understand the appeal. I can sit and watch the water flow by for hours."
Our river runs both ways!, and we have a Harbour (sometimes)A great way to visit Scotland (or any of the lesser parts of Britain) - My contributions
Not too many pictures of beaches in my collection, but we're not short of them. My favourite swimming hole has cliffs, caves, and a beach....and no reasons to remember to bring a swimsuit.
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74, happylaze -
My impression is that Justin is, as you say, gullible and also somewhat clueless still about the various facets of this country, but I just don't see him as nasty and creepy in the MA TT mode.
I don't know if I mentioned this before, but I once had a cat leave me in preference for a frat house, where I suppose they fed him beer and pizza. This hurt my feelings, but when a cat decides to move away, there's not much one can do about it. Or did you mean your cat left you by dying?
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72 Aqua I hope he likes the transfer.good luck there.I hate to see skill wasted.
Ed do you mean you like to sit on cats and only get up when you want some food.
73 bere. one of the problems with so many herding dogs in houses is they do tend nip .
there is an Aussie shepherd at one of the smithies I go to that chases the chickens around, (ok herds them) occasionally she can be found with a chicken in her mouth or right in front (cause she lets go when she sees you).
She was giving it love. licking it etc.. The chickens play dead but know they will escape and no harm was meant.
One day the rooster decided to play chase in the yard As I do with the dog.
All was fine and for a while the shepherd was so happy to have DumdeeDum to play with.
Problem came when the owner saw a really confused Fox leaving his property.
He couldn't hold it against the Fox.
it had probably never had a rooster try to play a game with it.
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76 She died St paddies day.
As for the ffrat house. I suspect it was that special nip. (and the fact that the nippers couldn't remember if or who had fed the cat so they all did.
We had one move in on us though.
I agree that Justin doesn't seem nasty , but then explain how all those posts that are against rules in an offensive way get through? Maybe he likes to keep it under wraps. that nasty side. Most do.
Though like I said I agree it is a little far fetched to believe the hypothesis.
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happy - On our drive south, guns for sale everywhere often coupled with the strangest things. Not exact examples but: guns and lawn furniture or plumbing supplies. Very odd. Our plumber did tell us that he gave up his business in Florida and returned to Montreal after being repeatedly asked how he could go into strangers' homes without a gun? A plumber!! If he had come into my home with a gun I would have found someone else.
Good luck on the issue, as you know better than I, they are rabid about it. But what is very annoying is that so many guns are finding their way into Canada. We are not amused! They change the subject by retaliating with, BC bud makes its way to (Eugene?) the US. Hardly similar. Oh and of course our exported terrorists! After that one incident Canada completely changed our passport requirements. A pain in the neck I can tell you!
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79 bere - glad I was able to help. Great cat story. One of my favourite books is, The Incredible Journey. I recall trying not to cry through most of it when first read. I hold bull terriers in high regard.
aqua - Is trying to herd cats not an expression? I can believe they are not amused. Our wheaten terrier thought she was a herd dog. She would shoulder large male dogs away from whatever she wanted them away from! (food, the door, me!, etc.) They were so shocked, they would do what she wanted. Which only encouraged her!
I am sure you are doing the right thing, but will not be easy. How many dogs do/will you have?
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78, happy -
I hadn't thought about the "nip" or the possible extra food. No wonder the cat chose them over me.
I also hadn't considered the way all those really offensive posts get through. Maybe you're right.
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My dear Heloise - Your pictures are truly fantastic and one day when I figure out how to mask my identity (not thinking of the coffee klatch) I will post some. I find it truly amazing how you never directly answer our (my!) obvious dropped hints about visiting Scotland. Is this your usual style? Never answer a question directly. If so, you must be frustrating to live with! I, on the other hand, am easy to get along with - so I say!!
The picture of the day; abandoned car on a beach. Really must spend and travel thousands of miles/$ to see that!
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78 happy - "explain how all those posts..." Easy, he wants to hear your reaction! As do we all (ok, most of us).
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bere I am pretty sure I am wrong about MATT being Justin, but I consider it.
There may have been another attraction to the frat.
lazy, drunk or stoned people lying around to act as cat warmers.
Time I alrady went through the Gun debate.
I mayself understand hunting. but household guns everywhere so we have to woory about their mistakes.
screw eh. If I cannot enjoy BC best then why the hell do I have to worry that the simplistic idiot next door may shoot me while he is reloading his gun.
My smoke doesn't go through walls.
or bra's.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8015242.stm
now if you thought this was a one off try.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/4319966.stm Gun culture sick export.
Apparently when visiting the states that under-wire might be a good thing.
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83 nice but I doubt it.
The mods would let me say what I really think of some if that were the case.
KLATCH
That's where the naked men are from I think.
Sorry bere I am trying to remember which story ended up there.
But a BC got in the way.
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Darling Noman, Of course I would welcome a visit! I advise a good sleeping bag and possibly a tent, but little else is essential.
As to contributing photos to the geograph site, your anonymity can be preserved through a nickname - I just can't be bothered, or I'm an unashamed self-publicist - take your pick.
- "Is this your usual style? Never answer a question directly. If so, you must be frustrating to live with!"
Probably.Jack, I have been known to sit on a cat - it was in my place! I meant, though, that I can take them or leave them, much as they me.
I fear I may have bu--ered the philosophical thread....
;-)
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Gun control, I knew they would land there! Can the Middle East be far behind?
Well, kiddies we are away to take our Toby for his 'interview.' I am sure he will pass. He was born with wonderful skills and very little training made him a master of the herding art. We will see if his potential new 'employers' will pass OUR test.
Timely One
Four dogs left now. Two old timers, our Spirit Dog and a sweet little muttzie whose greatest skill is love. I am sure we will acquire more. People do dump them and we try to find homes but sometimes we cannot so they stay.
Well, good wishes to all and enjoy the debate. I will catch up to the plane later, probably on my broomstick.
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aguarizonagal
A desert dweller like you might like it here. Tobermory, Ontario on the Niagara Escarpment. It's not Scotland, but it has a Scottish heritage.
These are not my pictures, nor do I know the person who posted them, but I have covered all the same ground and more.
East side of the peninsula is rock looking over Georgian Bay. West side are the sand beaches of Lake Huron (not seen in these pictures). Looking out from either side of the peninsula you will not see the far shore, even standing on the highest point. The water is crystal clear with 40-60 feet visibility. The Grotto has a hole under the waterline where you can dive (without need of equipment) into the Grotto and swim through the submarine cave into Georgian Bay.
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85 happy - "Klatch" Really? from our kitchen? I know my screen is a little wonky but think I would have noticed. (Do you mean from the book or Germany? - those I noticed.)
They enjoy witnessing you trying to contain yourself.
"Underwire" - I believe is fairly standard these days - perhaps that is why!
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Heloise - "sleeping bag! tent!" Oh so your invitation comes with strings attached! You must deter a lot of visitors that way. In that case I will get in touch with my good friend in Bearsden, Glasgow, as soon as I find her address. (Never noticed, does that translate into the den of a bear?)
Thanks for the advice, perhaps I will use the geography site.
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Publius (68),
Bloody gorgeous! I have childhood memories of time spent in the Georgian Bay area, and have always thought those times may have had something to do with my finding parts of Scotland (particularly the West Coast, Torridon & Skye
) so agreeable!
Thanks for that link! Who needs Scotland, except for better beer?
;-)
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detroit - Those are absolutely fabulous photos (not sure about the support the troops comment). As mentioned the farthest west I have been in Ontario is London so have never been there. It is a wonderful piece of geography.
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Heloise - I must step in and defend the Canadian beer drinking public. Not that I am one but... in Quebec at least, one can buy beer from (probably, never done a survey) any beer producing country in the world. Germany, Ireland, England (or would that be Britain?), China, Mexico, Belgium, Denmark, CANADA. Even the US if you can believe it! No one knows why? The Americans certainly don't want to drink it while here.
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lol ED I know what you mean about them cats.;)
And I did manage to get a post up the philosopher so maybe all was not lost.(shame)
Time It wasn't Klatch . no wI think of it (though there is a land called Klatch in diskworld) but it was Ephebe.
"in Ephebe tend to be of the beardy, bald type often wearing little more than a towel. Sometimes a little less too, but no philosopher would let the state of their dressedness interfere with a good idea. "
http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Philosophers#Agatean_philosophers http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Abraxas
http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Didactylos
*& Aqua. "Toby"
is as it happens also the name of the fearless smitten guard dog that looks after" Halo Jones"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Halotoby.jpg
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on the emerging pandemic.
I just asked on the other thread if we wouldn't all be better off adopting bhurkas for the duration of the epidemic?
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Ref 92 timewaitsfornoman
Please remember; I do not know who those people are. They are the reason my "Crazy Canadian Rockies" (friends from Canada we climb the Escarpment with) always ask us to tell everyone in the States that it's a barren, desolate place that has only two seasons, mud and snow; populated by rude, disqusting people; and the only food they have at restaurants and stores is rancid peameat. Those tourists did not even know Georgian Bay from Lake Huron.
SonnyA and I are given temporary Canadian citizenship when we are there.
I am glad to step in and defend Canadian beer along with you. Those of us in the States that do not recognize Bud and Busch as anything related to beer, go to Canada for a chance to drink real beer. Hesiodos. If your beer in Scotland is better than the Canadians, I'll have to schedule a trip to make a comparison.
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95 happy - Oh very witty! Men too? I go to check it out.
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94 happy - "philosopher" That incident was perhaps the most insane period of American history prior to Bush who overshadowed all. Clinton backed into a corner defining the word "it" or was it "is"? Who cares??!! I have mentioned this before; met some younger Americans during that period and was asked how the world viewed it, as their President was such an embarrassment. Responded I would be more concerned about the world wondering why the US was doing that to themselves. Added Mitterrand's mistress was at his graveside, but believe that went over their heads.
"The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation." P.E. Trudeau
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detroit - I know you don't. I was not holding you responsible just commenting on the comment. Did not want to go on but will now. They wanted "express lanes" for those with the most stickers! Why would Canada do that?
I'm sure you both make us proud as temporary Canadians.
It is pouring today, but the leaves sure are coming out on the trees!
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Ref 98 timewaitsfornoman
24 hour news channels needed a drama to keep viewers. It did not really matter to most people who was hiding in the oval office closet, but it kept people glued to the one-eyed, brain-eating cyclops.
I think people were more drawn to it because of the impeachment process. Few really understand it. They thought a new president would come to office once Clinton was impeached.
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80, timewaits -
The Incredible Journey: Cried when I read the book, cried when I watched the movie, cried again when I watched it again with my kids when they were little. I sob at the end every time, when the little dog finally comes along.
Heloise -
Glorious photos. Scotland looks very much like Vermont. Maybe that's why so many Scots settled here way back when.
All rules are broken. Leaves are coming out on the trees at least ten days ahead of schedule. Global warming? Spooky.
Underwire bras ubiquitous. Those of us who do not need them and do not want them are discriminated against. Damned uncomfortable. I had no idea they were for deflecting bullets. That explains a lot.
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The gun debate comes down to that little odd comma in the Second Amendment. What is Lynne Truss's interpretation? Has anyone asked her? Didn't want to post this on the other thread and get jumped on for punctuationality.
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lol bere . not me.
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detroit - But they were devouring themselves from within. The spectacle was so bizarre. I believe the Parliamentary system handles situations like that in a more sensible manner. If the people, through their representatives, have lost faith in their government an election is called. I do not believe the four year term has many (any?) advantages.
bere - I also find the Amendment system odd. The Constitution is regarded akin to the Bible, its words the gospel. Amend the amendments if need be. After all most were written centuries ago. All the talk of what the founding fathers meant. What does it matter, things have changed.
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104, timewaits -
I agree. To consider as almost sacred a document written in a time when no one could have possibly foreseen assault rifles, or even automobiles, is a bit absurd. The founding fathers could not have meant anything about so many issues that come up because they never dreamed such issues could ever exist (abortion - acknowledged, same sex marriage, no-fly lists, among other things). I mean, did the founders mean for interstate highway speed limits to be constitutional? The question is ridiculous.
Yes, things have changed. I have already volunteered to re-write the Constitution but no one seems to want to take me up on this.
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The U.S. Constitution was written to be a "living" document. The framers did recognize that issues would come to light that were not directly covered under the constitution. These were progressive men being extremely progressive for their times. The amendment process is the key for resolution of unforseen developements and has been used successfully used for over 200 years. Thus, the Bill of Rights; which are the first amendments to the Constitution, commissioned and accepted by "We the People..." of our individual states, establishing specific "rights" for the protection of citizens.
I would really hate to see the writing of a new Constitution in this day and age. The possibility of having the "intellectuals" from financial, corporate, religious, political, and thousands of special interest groups (including those of foreign powers) coming up with anything nearly as successful as our Constitution has proven to be, are very slim.
The problem does not lay in the foundations of our Constitution. The problem (if there is a real problem) is in the hands of "We the People...". It is up to each of us to be well-informed, active voters not only in Federal elections; but also in State and local elections.
Over 40% elligible citizens did not exercise their duty as a citizen in our last election.
If you are not driving the car, don't be surprised at your destination.
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106, publius -
I don't dispute most of what you say (and my offer to re-write the thing is of course tongue-in-cheek) but I see the problem as being the "strict constructionists" or "originalists." They don't see it as a living document, in need of change over time (by way of amendments), but seem to think every issue that arises can be made to somehow fit within the original intent of the words of the document. I'm not expressing that well, but maybe you understand what I mean.
These are the people who throw assault rifles in with the "arms" in the Second Amendment, and refuse to consider how detrimental this is to our society.
I have voted in every single national, state, and local election my entire adult life (except for the first one when my absentee ballot didn't reach me in time when I was 18 and in Israel; that was a bummer). This does not seem to have made a dramatic difference in the direction this country has gone. I can understand why people become apathetic.
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Publius is right. The Constitution is a living document, and it would be an error of the highest degree to attempt a re-write or a new one. This is worth repeating:
- "The possibility of having the "intellectuals" from financial, corporate, religious, political, and thousands of special interest groups (including those of foreign powers) coming up with anything nearly as successful as our Constitution has proven to be, are very slim."
and the very thought is horrific.Inform yourself, keep informed, Register and vote. Every time.
--Henry David Thoreau
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detroit - I know you are passionate about the Constitution and I certainly was not suggesting it be changed. My puzzlement is over the amendment process and the attempts to interpret what was meant over 200 years ago. If it is not clear and must be deciphered in a court of law to me the solution is; change the wording. Amend the amendment. I certainly do not want to get into a Constitutional debate. I don't know enough about it!
I am a firm believer in the right to vote and feel strongly everyone should exercise theirs.
Saw Justin in SC on the BBC tonight.
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bere - I was mentioning your Post Office story, which made me wonder - did your sister ever receive the books? I do not know (why bother pretending by saying "recall") if I have read Georgette Heyer (I cleverly wrote the name down), but will look for her next time I am at the Library.
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Ref 107 bere54
I have read your posts for several months and certainly see you as a well-informed, active voter. One of the many things I appreciate about you.
I do understand what you have expressed. It's the two classic schools of thought of how the Constitution is to be interpreted that have been with us from the ratification. This issue is most important in the composition of the Supreme Court. Which method of interpretation is best for the purpose of maintaining the authority of the Constitution. The most successful findings are when the court has a practical balance from the two schools.
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Ref 109 timewaitsfornoman
Like with bere, I also respect you as a well informed poster and admire your opinions.
I am using a quote from wiki that explains the amendment process well.
Amending the Constitution is a two-part process: amendments must be proposed and then they must be ratified. Amendments can be proposed one of two ways. The only way that has been used to date is through a two-thirds majority vote in both houses of Congress. Alternatively, two-thirds of the legislatures of the States can call a Constitutional Convention to consider one or more amendments. This second method has never been used, and it is unclear exactly how, in practice, such a Constitutional Convention would work.
Regardless of how the amendment is proposed, the amendment must be approved by three-fourths of states, a process called ratification. Depending on the amendment, this requires either the state legislatures or special state conventions to approve the amendment by simple majority vote.
Also,
Unlike many other constitutions, amendments to the U.S. constitution are appended to the existing body of the text without altering or removing what already exists. There is no provision for deleting either obsolete text or rescinded provisions, including passages that are directly contradicted by subsequent amendments (for example, the 18th and 21st).
The 18th amendment brought us prohibition. The 21st amendment superceded the 18th. Hope this helps your understanding.
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timewaits -
My sister did not receive the books and we fear they are lost forever, but the good news is that a friend of hers has tons of Heyers and is going to look through her collection (which at present is all in boxes) and see if she has the five I lost and will give them to my sister to send to me. I am almost sorry I mentioned the author because if you do find them in your library you might think they are terribly silly (which they are but very wittily silly and fun - to me, anyway) and you might get a very different impression (but possibly not incorrect!) of me. I am known to be a Trollope and Dickens fanatic so people think I am a literature snob and are surprised to find that I also love Heyer.
publius -
Thank you for not snubbing me. I also happen to be a Constitution fanatic and have a pamphlet copy on my bedside table and am always looking things up in it.
The rest of the computer story: My iBook is unfixable (design flaw in the G3 video chip) and so I'm getting the newer G4. My Mac guy agreed with me that forcing me to use a PC would be like making me trade my 5-speed Toyota for a Pontiac with automatic transmission. He knows me, he insisted. And for free he's giving me MS Office for Mac 2008, which I had been told didn't exist. Says there's nothing I can't do with it. Hurrah!
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Ref 113 bere54
Hurrah for your (almost) new MAC. Was going to add my two cents in agreement with Hesiodos and seanspa, but I felt their opinions were well enough. When you first posted your MAC problem, the "black screen of death" came to mind. It's the sure sign of a MAC's passing. I lost a couple of MACs in this way after many years of faithful survice.
One of these days I'll return to my first computer love; the user-friendly, mostly-immune, WYSIWYG, MAC.
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bere - Oh excuse me, "design flaw in the G3 video chip"?? What pray tell does that mean? No need to answer! Good news about your almost new computer.
Not to worry, I read all of Barbara Cartland's books! My mother couldn't believe it! (Had to google "Princess Diana step-grandmother" to remember her name - memorable author!) They are based on historical fact and did learn lots which I have since forgotten! Oh, just think I could read them again! I've got the story line down pat as it never changed. I promise not to judge you by the books you read.
I love Jane Austen and could reread her again as I always forget which heroine goes with which title.
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115, timewaits -
All's I know is it made my screen go black -- "the black screen of death" as publius so eloquently puts it; man, does that sound scary or what? I'm just mindlessly repeating what the Mac guy told me.
I read Jane Austen again and again and never tire of them. It's such a shame she was not as prolific as Trollope. I do think Heyer is a step above Barbara Cartland, whose books I read many years ago because my sister had some of them.
publius -
I think you should go back to Mac soon. It's good for the soul. I had to sell my beloved restored 1973 VW Superbeetle last fall and I've decided that is to be my only concession to "reduced circumstances" for the time being. Especially since I'm naturally frugal anyway.
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Haven't heard anything from the kitchen band lately.
Here's a nice soothing melody for a quite evening
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publius, such sweet music to see me off to bed - as soon as I finish my crossword puzzle. Thanks for that.
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is this the end of he world as we know it? King Cornish Pasty is dead, long live King Devon Pasty!
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119 LOL sean.. that what I like.. Keeping an eye on the important developments.
We have a pasty shop opening in Eugene.
I'll give em a go assess the carrot level and get back to you.
(when the open)
If they are a taste delight I will send one to Heydon post office with a sign saying "for the limey"
Go Devon.
Aside, I find it funny how many people are called Devon in the USA.
I suspect it would be hard to find many in Devon or the UK.
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119, seanspa -
Page not found, couldn't figure out what to delete to find the page. I need timewaits to instruct me on that one. Will I ever know what is causing the end of the world before it is too late? But I suppose by then it won't matter. " . . . as we know it" I guess means only that you have to live with a different pastry. Perhaps this does not affect me, so I shouldn't worry about it.
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bere - You have no need to worry. To see - delete everything (the "b" bit) between 4987 and .stm so it reads: "4987.stm" Then Enter. Write down the symbols/letters you deleted, they are always the same.
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seanspa -
Re: your 324 on the catholic thread -- I've wondered why we haven't evolved to the point where we automatically sprout umbrellas right out of the tops of our heads whenever it rains, and these umbrella body parts will be impervious to wind, and will reduce themselves back into the head as soon as it stops raining, kind of like using that little orange dot on the top left of my page here between the red and green dots. Whoosh, it's gone, whoosh it's back.
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But timewaits, last time it was everything after the stm, wasn't it? Oh, confusion, confusion everywhere and not a drop makes sense (to me). Will try it again. Thanks!
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bere, look out for the br surrounded by angular brackets in the middle of the address of the page not found and delete it. This press enter again.
This is typical IT. The old blog software didn't do this, but the new version randomly inserts these extra characters for no obvious reason and certainly no benefit.
Happy, I wonder if there are any people in the UK called Ken Tucky? Or maybe the president has an english relative called Al?
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Well, that worked. I for one would love to try some Cornish pastry whether made in Cornwall or Devon. Do they export it or must it be consumed fresh to be truly the tastiest?
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Oh this is a worrying development! They'll be at daggers drawn across the River Camel over this one. Somebody call in the UN (at least they can pass a resolution decreeing that the use of carrot in pasties should be considered a war crime).
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feohme, calm down, please don't exaggerate. You are mixing up war crimes with crimes against humanity.
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After my hellish disasters for the past ten days what with books disappearing into the black hole of the PO, then no hot water, then the Mac suffering the black screen of death, now a water main has broken and half the town (my half) has no water at all. At least there's the consolation in knowing that half the town, not just me, is stinky today. "They" claimed we would have water in four hours but it's been over five hours now and still no water. Humph. Fortunately the diner is in the half with water and while they don't happen to have a shower there, they at least have coffee.
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Ref 119 seanspa
I raise my flag for the Cornish Pasty. That's the type I grew up on.
My Great-grandfather was an iron miner in the Cleveland-Cliffs mine under Neguanee, MI. My Danish, Great-grandmother sent him off to work every day with a pasty in his lunch pail. She did put in a little diced carrots and minced parsley, "Just to add color. It's so drab down in those dark mines. The soul needs cheering.", was her apology for deviating from the Cornish recipe.
I know our Coyote will spank me for this one; but it's my dear Great-grand mother. She was far too sweet to be critisized for wanting to add a little cheer to her dear husbands life in the dark and dusty bowels of the earth. She was the good heart that would never turn a hobo away from her door without bringing him into her kitchen and feeding him at her table, as a guest. Even when times were rough.
I have no prejudice. I'll take mine with or without carrots. As long as they're good.
Bere, dear friend. A pasty (pronounced, pas-tee) isn't just some pastry. It's...it's...life itself! It's...it's...manna from the gods! It's...it's...like the joy of having a first born child! It's...it's...
Oh! Um-sorry. I-ah, got a little carried away there.
It was always interesting to be invited to the home of my mother's childhood friends for a pasty dinner, when we visited my Great-grandparents and other relatives still living in the UP. Each nationality made their own version of what they called a pasty. The Italian version was more like a small, folded-pizza. French versions, a puff-pastry. Irish was little different than a pot-pie. Swedes did the carrot and parsley thing, also. Finns stuck to the original recipe (they're a fun-loving bunch of anti-authorians that make up their own odd set of rules, otherwise).
It's good to see the Great Pasty Debate making it into the news! Stone the Swines! Fiddle the economy! This is important!
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On the Pasty debate.
Sean is right. I am lobbying the UN to make it a War crime seeing as there is county honour at stake and the lines have been drawn.
If the Camel is to be the new border
Over the TAMAR we go. Lets show them grockles
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128, seanspa -
A good example of a crime against humanity is the possible closing of the rest area whose bathroom I rely on on the long drive to and from the train station. This proposed budget cut is simply outrageous.
130, publius -
Oh. I get it. A bakery here (which is going out of business at the end of this week) has been making something they call a pasty but it's rather a nasty pasty with some kind of tasteless mush inside that they call Indian food. I do not think you would even feed it to the swine.
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Ref 132 bere54
That in itself is a good enough reason for them to go out of business. A pasty is anything but tasteless mush. And I hope they were referring to the sub-continent on the other side of the globe:-)
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133, publius -
Yes, that kind of supposed Indian food. But it's certainly not like any kind of Indian food I've ever had. Even the stuff that comes in foil bags is better. This bakery has been charging $5 for a loaf of "artisan" bread and then wondering why few people buy it.
Water's back on! Off to the shower.
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mea culpa
It is indeed 'merely' a crime against humanity rather than a war crime to put carrot in a 'true' pasty.
And why stop at the Camel - onward to the Thames say I!
...and shall Trelawny die?
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134. At 8:51pm on 29 Apr 2009, bere54:
That would be their attempt at a samosa, would it? Sounds as thought they didn't quite get it right.
(I like Jamaicam patties, as well, apart from the way the pastry crumbles.)
Not quite the same thing, though. But this looks like a decent recipe: http://www.indianchild.com/samosa_recipe.htm
I suspect your bakery is making them according to the one here (http://www.indianchild.com/samosa_recipe.htm)
A samosa made with puff pastry? Another crime . . .
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135. At 8:57pm on 29 Apr 2009, Feohme wrote:
"onward to the Thames say I!"
Could turn very nasty. Suppose Essex retaliated with an Essex Pasty? imagine . . .
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ish - I believe you are rather referring to the complextion of the average Essex Girl (too much time spent in dodgy nightclubs coupled with the glare from their white stilletos)
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Essex pasty? Too many suntan salons for that, surely!
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Hey Honey, I am home!
Cooked carrots are just plain nasty in my opinion and ruin good food! Sorry, Shaman, I appreciate your good grandmother's desire to make the pasty eye-appealing and beautiful but I only like carrots when they are raw!
I have had several versions of these pasties in several countries. I thought all very tasty. (none had carrots) I am not very knowledgeable on this particular subject. However, I am thinking that a gentle and skilled hand with the pastry part is very important.
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seanspa - I believe that qualifies as a pincer movement on the same cliche
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Ref 138 Feohme
Here in the States they have a different pronounciation for that kind of pasty;-) Quite sure my mother never made any of those.
"onward to the Thames!" We'll not be taking any carrots captive! They'll be stewed!
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Feohme, I tried, but forgot to include the stilettos.
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To Britishish
Your #83 on the new thread beat me to it by one post! That will teach me to leave town!
Good People:
Our trip was most rewarding. The match between our good herder dog and his new family was perfect. They have both sheep and some goats. Our good dog will be happy there and his new family will cherish his skills and his good nature. We are content.
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136, british -
They call it a pasty. The innards are more like a samosa except tasteless.
140, aqua -
How did the dog's interview go? Did he get the job? Are the benefits satisfactory? I would hope they include a cozy bed in front of the fire.
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aqua, I see you answered my question as I was asking it. I am so pleased to hear it. That should balance your missing him. Kind of like my daughter being so happy with her boyfriend that she has little time to call me!
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Bere
Benefits are most satisfactory. They have two other dogs to keep him company and also two young children. He adores children! These are good people. The woman is a weaver of some beautiful work and they are also working at sustainable agriculture. They wanted us to stay on a while to walk their land.
However, we are two old home birds these days and do not like to leave our grandchild too long. She gets anxious. We left her in good hands but her health is fragile.
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144. At 9:57pm on 29 Apr 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:
To Britishish
Your #83 on the new thread beat me to it by one post! That will teach me to leave town!
Weird. They canned it, I see. (You didn't make a joke, did you? They're not good with jokes after about 8pm our time, I've noticed.)
The squirrels are very worried about the news that the Bronx Zoo is going to 'rendition' some animals with "bushy tails" to other zoos. (Today's Guardian.) They say they don't like the sound of that at all.
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To Britishish
I made no joke but I did name names. Shame on me! I so do love it when I get censored. It reminds me of my youth when I secretly read books "not suitable for young ladies." Too thrilling!
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148 - british -
Still haven't read the Dowd thing and probably won't because I find her irritating, but apparently it purports to report what was said in a closed hearing with the Intelligence Committee, so shouldn't that have been a give-away that it was satire, since Dowd would not have been privy to what goes on in that committee, or sub-committee, or whatever it was?
That is very disturbing about the bushy-tailed animals. Can the ACLU help, do you think? Although I hear there's a new book slamming them for political expedience and appeasing their supporters, and perhaps bushy-tailed animals are not in the correct group.
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To Britishish
There can be no rendition of squirrels. I would not approve of that at all! I must look into this further and get back to you.
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publius
Stewed Sir! Why I'll have them diced in a trice so I will!
(Note to self: Read no more Aubrey : Maturin books for a while - your language is becoming quite 18th Century)
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152, Feohme -
No, no, please continue with the 18th century language. They really knew how to whip out a good phrase or two back then, unlike some of those people on the other threads who can't even speak 21st century English.
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to #150 Bere
I agree somewhat with your opinion but I think it is worth the reading because the best part is to read the comments of those who read the article. I only read a few but it was enlightening in regard to how many took this as actual testimony.
I will repeat my opinion from a censored comment that the man has a serious personality disorder evident enough that people would actually believe these were his true words.
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Is there such an entity as a 'hit and run poster?'
I am worried that I could qualify for that title. Sometimes I feel that I do not stand my ground and take to the debate properly.
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aqua -
You know, that's really interesting, I mean that the man in reality oozes so much evil that anything written about him, no matter how extreme, would be believable. Unless it was extreme in the opposite direction, i.e., that he's lovable and kind to animals.
Even if you "hit and run," your hits are pithy and a joy to read. And quite preferable to the ones that go on forever and don't say anything or say the same thing over and over again. If I didn't find this blog entertaining as well as educational I wouldn't bother with it at all. Your comments are so wise that they stand by themselves, much better than a back and forth argument.
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#155, Aqua, fear not. You do not miss much 'debate'.
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aquarizonagal
Do not worry about becoming a 'hit and run poster'. We have more important things to discuss here from your post 140. Pasty crust!
We're not looking for the light, nicely-layered, flaky pie crust made with lard. This is a substantial, well-worked, bonding kind of crust with just enough butter to bind. The crust should hold up nicely when a cold pasty is eaten in hand. You don't want a lap-full of flaky crust.
In the days before fresh 'produce' was hybredized and genetically stitched to rhino hide cells, prohibiting decay for...who knows how long; carrots and other root crops were our main source of fresh vegetables during the long winter months here in the north country. The cost of fresh produce was prohibitive for a family of seven.
I bet you might allow an exception to your cooked carrot dislike by a steaming dish of cooked, sliced, buttered carrots. Of course the butter needs to be hand-churned from fresh Jersey cow milk. Season with a hint of nutmeg and serve. OH. Save the water used in boiling the carrots. That is stock for your next kettle of soup.
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My cat is sneezing and is a bit off his feed. Is it possible he could have swine flu? Not only has he never been to Mexico, he hasn't been in contact with anybody but me. Guess I won't flip out yet.
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Dear Shaman
I DO NOT LIKE COOKED CARROTS!!!
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publius -
I'm with you on the carrot issue. Mmmm. I love cooked buttered carrots. So sorry to have to disagree with aqua on this thorny issue. But I do enjoy them raw as well. Dipped in a tangy, creamy dressing. A complete meal for me. If you include cookies.
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It took cooked carrots to get aqua really steamed up. Who knew?
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We like our carrots sauted (sounds healthier than fried) with parsnips. I'll have to try to make a pasty that includes these, in the pastry as described by publius, of course.
Bere, I thought that having your cat off his food was a good thing?
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Bere
Offer the 'Evil Donald' something really good like canned tuna or salmon. His sneezing may be an indication of a possible allergy to 'diet food.' When our Countess was put on a diet she was not amused and began showing symptoms of terrible disease as well as serious mental illness. We decided at her age (15) she deserved to eat anything she wanted. That was five years ago. She is happy and we are happy.
Swine Flu does migrate to cats unless the cats are illegal alien cats. These cats can become vectors of terrible decimation. They swarm over our borders, infecting all they encounter on their way to steal green cards so that they can take over the world! Or get a job in a fish factory where they can process fish at below minimum wage and all the fish guts they can eat!
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Ref 160 aquarizonagal
What did you say? I'm not sure you're being clear:-)
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Seanspa, it's a good thing if the cat's just being health conscious but not if he has a terrible disease. Maybe he's holding out for carrots. I used to have a cat who loved peas and other small veggie bits and would get up on the stove to eat leftovers out of pots and pans.
Obama just told me to cover my mouth when I cough and sneeze. Isn't that sweet? A friend of mine who lives in New York tells me that Mayor Bloomberg goes on the radio to remind people to wear their hats and mittens on cold days. Now that's true leadership!
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aqua, I would never subject Evil Donald to diet food! He gets normal food, the expensive kind from the vet that doesn't have melamine in it, just not as much as he would like. I would like him to lose a little bit of weight because his paunch sort of gets in his way when he's trying to clean his back, if that makes any sense. And it sways when he walks and looks uncomfortable. I know I would be uncomfortable if I had a swaying paunch.
I'll have to be on the lookout for those illegal alien cats. Do they also swarm over the Canadian border and try to commit terrorist acts? Or maybe they're trying to land spaceships. I wouldn't put anything past a cat.
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Bere
You have Spring where you live, no? Perhaps your cat has allergies to pollen. Even if he does not go outside if you have windows open pollen will blow in.
I am SURE your Donald is not holding out for carrots. I have had many cats who liked veggies but none who would eat a cooked carrot. Cats are very discriminating, unlike SOME people. Try albacore tuna or sockeye salmon, wild caught of course. He might really like that!
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aqua, are you quite sure you are not projecting your own antipathy to cooked carrots onto your cats? Perhaps, knowing your feelings, they were ashamed to ask for carrots. Oddly, Evil D does not seem to like fish. Aha! Now we know he's an alien in disguise!
You could be right about the pollen. It's just been since we've been able to have the windows open that he's been sneezing.
I'm listening to Obama's press conference and while I don't agree with everything he says, he says it so damned well! This is such a relief, having a president who doesn't make me cringe every time he opens his mouth. And he's funny too.
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Bere
You are endangering poor 'Evil Donald' because you do not watch television to know that you need to have a carpet powerwasher, an ionizing air purifier, a super-powered vacuum sweeper; spray your house constantly with a disinfectent, and burn scented chemicals in order to elliminate dust mites, pollen, ground in dirt, particles of dead skin, mold, mildew, and other unseen dangers in your home.
A day in front of the brain-eating cyclops, and another at the stores will bring true harmony to your home; and save poor 'Evil Donald'.
Okay. I agree with aguagal. It's probably pollen. Or mold spores.
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Of course he could be pining to be bigger!
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Oh my. Over on the 100 Days thread, MAII has accused someone, Sam I think, of "venomous bile." This is peculiar since MA II is the one spewing it. Maybe he was looking in the mirror as he typed those words and was talking to himself.
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I am being silly in my posts but I AM worried. There are people, including some of the media, who are blaming this flu on immigration. Even though it has been reported over and over that it was tourists who carried the flu from Mexico to their own countries. Mexico will be blamed and immigrants will be scape goats. Now that a child has died in Texas, people are becoming even more militant especially here.
The WHO has upped the alert to level #5 which does not help the paranoia.
I am praying for this flu bug to die out quickly.
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publius -
Scented chemicals? Carpet powerwasher? I've never heard of that. You mean I'm not supposed to have dirt in my home? I don't think I leave bits of dead skin lying about the place. Poor Evil D. He lives in a dust-infested environment. I believe in dirt. It keeps me from getting sick. Evil D just needs more dirt to build up his immunities. He never used to get sick when he was always outside rolling in the dirt, his favorite pastime.
I suppose if I had a TV I would know all about the appropriate medication to ask his doctor about for the allergies.
Why would I have mold spores? And how did people manage when they lived in log cabins? Or maybe that's why they had shorter life spans. No scented chemicals.
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The 'MII' person has just gotten really nasty on the '100 thread!' I really cannot go there anymore. Debate is difficult for me but truly mean spirited is just too much!
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171, seanspa -
If you are referring to my cat, I seriously doubt he is pining to be fatter. Why would anyone do that? Now I could understand if he wanted to be taller. I pine for that myself, so that I won't be loomed over by my kids, but I don't seem to get any taller. I think it is very disrespectful for children, particularly daughters, to grow taller than their mothers.
173, aqua -
That child in Texas had been brought from Mexico for medical treatment. Do people there think he/she was an American child killed by diseased illegal immigrants? I haven't heard any of what you speak of. That's disturbing, I mean that people are saying, not that I haven't heard it.
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Bere
I did not say that their information was factual. It is the "somebody told me" source. Factually, there ARE some news casters who are intimating very overtly that immigration is responsible for spreading disease.
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Bere
Oops.I forgot about the medications.
There are mold spores everywhere. More so this time of year with Grandfather Sun and Grandmother Earth being so...fiesty with each other. One would need to live in a bubble not to be exposed to pollens and spores.
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aqua -
I was just listening to a Boston talk radio station and heard exactly what you are talking about. The host was saying that the border should be sealed, whatever that means. That's not even possible. And he was decrying the fact that the child was allowed into this country for medical treatment. A caller mentioned that all the cases in this country were people who had been exposed on their travels and the host just ignored that. I have heard that all of the Mexicans who have died, including the child, were people whose health was fragile before they got the swine flu, so perhaps it is not as dangerous as we are being led to believe. This is what happens with normal flu too. The weak and infirm are more vulnerable. I think declaring it a pandemic at this point is a bit of hysteria. More people around the world die of AIDS every day than will ever be affected by this flu.
publius -
So mold spores aren't dangerous? I don't need to be shaking in my slippers?
It's pretty sad when one isn't safe inside or outside the home because of either spores or flus.
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Bere
We all breath in countless numbers of mold spores everyday. So far so good, I would say. Penicillin is derived from mold. I don't think you should worry.
It's only one of those things advertising copy writers use to alarm people into buying the products they shill.
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publius -
Oh good. I had never given a thought to mold spores until you mentioned them. I thought maybe you were talking about the gunk on my shower curtain, which I'm too busy (lazy) to worry about. But maybe that's soap scum, not mold. I've never paid attention to any kind of advertising and never remember the names of products anyway. Even the ones I use. It's hell when they change the packaging and I can't find the stuff I've used for years.
aqua -
I just read the Dowd piece and can't for the life of me understand how anyone could not have realized immediately that it was satire.
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what we need is a master baker.
Now what it this confusing geography there from the south west.
feohme.
Are you one of them pasty pasties from over the Tamar in that funny county at the end .
But it seems Devonian's are better bakers.;)
Either way which direction are you heading in?
And will there be a trail of pasties?
Sorry Aqua hit and run here.
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175 yes aqua he has always been that way. still abuse him at your leisure.
I've been joking about JW being them (MATT) but I can't see him as being as nasty really.(just having fun there) but the other one/too .
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Ish (148),
- "Weird. They canned it, I see. (You didn't make a joke, did you? They're not good with jokes after about 8pm our time, I've noticed.)"
Jokes are difficult to translate, and I suspect the moderation may well be contracted out to a place where English isn't necessarily the first language....I'm told that one of the reasons some "serious" authors get translated less (or are less popular in 'foreign parts') is that they "make jokes"...My mentor, Mr Berry has fallen prey to this at times.;-)
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I used to hate cooked carrots when I was wee, but I love 'em now. Time to grow up, Aqualass ;-)
As to parsnips, they're a truly superior form of the genus, and I love a good samosa. I agree that flaky pastry, whether inappropriately on a pasty or elsewhere is a bother with crumbs in the beard...snacks for later, though
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18th Century language
Or, who better than Tom Paine?
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Heloise -
Good ol' Tom Paine. Nearly always got it right. Maybe always for all I know.
Agree as to the burning parsnip issue.
You've got a beard? Oooh.
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Hey folks have fun with MATT this weekend I see he is gearing up for more.
I'll be smacking metal with a hundred or so other metal heads.
so have fun.
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Aqua I'm with you on cooking carrots,Unless in carrot cake.
Cooked carrots on their own induce an instant gagging in me. Always have.
Raw carrots YUM.
Why waste the energy just to ruin them.
and those that are becoming militant are the ones looking for an excuse every day I bet.
On MATT.
vile he is.
And very susceptible to swine flu
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Happy, does that explain why his arguments don't fly?
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Seanspa, YES!
Or else it is because he engineered the plane, and we know he can't tell the difference between a duck and an elephant.
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To#185 Singer
Then I would guess that the Happy Coyote and I:
"We will never grow up! Never grow up! Oh no, not we!"
We both do like carrot cake. Would that count for adolescence, perhaps?
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I am very passionate about universal health care and there is going to be a demonstration for it at the State House in Montpelier tomorrow and I feel morally obligated to go (especially since it's on the way to the Mac place and my computer is ready), but now I hear it's supposed to rain tomorrow. Am I morally obligated to march around in the rain? I'm having dampness twinges in my morals.
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Please! Promise me that elephants cannot fly!
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aqua, don't you believe in Dumbo?
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Bere
No.
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Debate on the 'Specter' thread seems most reasoned and civilized. I am learning much and have enjoyed reading the posts.
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To#193 Bere
If you do not wish to march, bombard your State Congress with emails, calls, and letters focused on the day of the demonstration. Do the same with your Federal Congress people. You will have done your part. Not everyone can march in the streets but your voice can also be heard in other ways.
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That new thread looks like it's going to devolve into good torture/bad torture already. The arts debate is rather interesting.
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Suitably inspired, I have picked on a recipe and my first attempt at making pasties is in the oven. Beef, pork, potato, turnip and, to check whether it should be there or not, carrot.
it's my first attempt at pastry, let alone pasty, so I hope the first sample comes out ok. If not, the other 5 in the batch will be wasted. If it does work, I know what I'll be eating for the rest of the week.
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bere, sometimes I think that david's mouse doesn't realise that he is being played by sam's cat.
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Oh dear, I hear on the radio now that Joe Biden made a faux pas this morning on some TV show, exacerbating the panic over this flu. I wonder how many hundreds or thousands of people may have had this flu already, thought they had a cold, and didn't even bother going to the doctor so they'll never be counted. Weren't we all supposed to panic about SARS? What happened with that?
And aqua, I don't recall anyone clamoring to seal the Canadian border when they were having the SARS problem. Could it be because they're mostly not "dark-hued" and mostly speak the same language?
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seanspa, aren't you going to share? I'm always ready to sample the food experiments of others. Just pick the beef and pork bits out of mine.
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201, seanspa
I had thought that myself but couldn't possibly have expressed it as well as you have done.
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Ref 200 seanspa
Good luck on your pasties! I hope they turn out well for you. When I haven't made them in a while I tend to screw up the crust a little. That's the hardest part. Still very edible, just a little too crumbly.
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I would say that Sam the Plumber is pulling David's chain.
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bere, very good.
The buzzer has just gone off at they look pretty good, if a little pasty!
However, it may be some time before I get to try them. I overdid the making of the insides, so made up a quick stew and then overdid the eating of the leftovers.
If it works I'll try a veggie version - else my wife won't be too impressed. If I mail one to 'The town in Vermont that had a mains problem and loose books in the PO recently", then bere may be able to confirm whether they are better than the local bakery version.
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The pirate plumber. I'm sure there's a musical waiting to be made about that.
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To#202 Bere
No faux pas by Biden, just the press having its usual stupid day. He was asked what advice he would give his own family and his response was basically. ' wash hands often, avoid crowds and enclosed spaces i.e. planes, trains etc.' Good advice from any loving husband, father and grandfather. The press is so double stupid!
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seanspa, I look forward to receiving that veggie pasty. I just hope no other towns had water mains breaking because then somebody else will be eating my pasty.
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My father has just come around to give me advice on how to install the new front door, so we broke open a pasty. The pastry was a little firm, and the insides a little dry. However, with some branston pickle on the side, it went down very well. It just needs to be eaten on a plate rather than from the hand.
I used the original cornish pasty recipe found half way down here.
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seanspa, I'm sure your pasties will improve with practice. Is the front door the last of the remodeling? How did all that go?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOcVkofa1AU
elephant fly
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Good going Sean.
Do they have them orange things in them.
If it's on a plate get some bisto out.
mmmmm bisto
Aqua
I'm with you totally.
Cake or raw.
Though I saw a cookie recipe yesterday that had carrots in it.
Bere which arts debate?
on the racism on the flu.
Today hundreds on americans and people from all over the world will go home .
(If american and unable to afford health care they may have been better off staying in mexico)
Some will be taking that bug home.
The bug does not know it is meant to infect mexicans or " darker hued people".
But some would have us stop people on colour rather than health.
Seems stupid.
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aqua
It's safe for you to watch happy's link at 213; it doesn't actually show the elephant.
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happy -
The arts debate is over on 100 Days, between Sam and David, each trying to out-snoot the other. It's very amusing. I think Sam has won.
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Bere
I will see if this comment is accepted.
'Bird shit bird shit in me eye. Me no baby, me no cry. Me just happy elephants do not fly.'
I have no idea of the origin of this. It was something repeated by one of my children once that made me laugh and I never forgot it.
Flying pigs are one thing, I have experienced one or two occasions marked by that phenomenon. However, I would rather elephants stayed on the ground!
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aqua
That's pretty cute. I'll probably remember it and laugh whenever I find a massive glop of bird's leavings on my windshield. Which reminds me of something I've never forgotten: when I was about 5 years old, we were living in Brooklyn and my parents took us to see the UN building. I had to wear a nasty itchy yellow dress with full petticoats, also itchy. I remember standing there on the plaza with my father taking pictures when suddenly a bird swooped and managed to land something both on my father's head and on the nasty yellow dress. Seeing a bird poop on your father's head is memorable enough but the great joy of that day was that the yellow dress was ruined.
It's one of my fondest memories. We kids got a lot of mileage out of the story of father wiping bird poop out of his hair, but my own special pleasure I kept hidden for my private enjoyment.
And now goodnight. Big day tomorrow. Forecast has changed to a bit of rain in the late afternoon.
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Ref 211 seanspa
It sounds as if you need a little more shortening (I know I said butter earlier, then remembered we use shortening for the crust); place a small pad of butter (here's where the butter comes into play) on top of the mixture before you fold and seal the crust; then add just a splash of hot beef bullion through the vent hole in the top of each pasty about half way through baking; you'll find that the filling will remain moist.
So? What's your verdict on the diced "orange things" in your experimental pasty?
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lol all. have a good week end I'm sure matt will entertain as usual.
Butter is what makes things great.
but apparently for pie crusts etc. Bear fat cannot be substituted.
(unless your veggie of course.)
lol on the arts I read it and well.
ART
there are those that do and those that discuss.
byeeee
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Ref 220 happylaze
Bear fat is even better than shortening in a pasty crust! I just don't happen to have any on hand at the moment. I'm sure seaspa is a little short of the substance, too. Unless he's a hunter. I know there are bears in Idaho.
Good luck at your fair.
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Plenty of bears around here. My hunter friends provide me with sausage once in a while, but not fat.
All of the pasties are gone. I have to say that the little orange bits were just not noticeable in terms of taste. I guess they were overwhelmed by the turnip, not that the turnip was too much. I will definitely make more, but include the (non bear fat) suggestions offered. Carrots will be dropped. And the pastry will be brushed with egg rather than milk to try to get a better colour. Oh, and my wife was not impressed by the lack of a veggie alternative, so a meatless version will also be available. Open house next Thursday - you all know where I live!
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Ref 222 seanspa
The carrots just add a little color, mostly. I always make a big sheet of pasties to have extra (just me and SonnyA to eat them) because I love them cold, too. He still re-heats his in the micro-wave.
SonnyA is going to be moving out to Lander, Wyoming in about 6 weeks. He starts his NOLS schooling then. I'll have him give a shout hello in your direction when he gets there:-)
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Well, here I am trying to learn this new computer with it's different operating system, and the keyboard has a completely different feel to it but I expect I'll become accustomed to it. I do remember that there was an adjustment time with the old iBook.
Bear fat on pasties? Somehow that doesn't sound very appetizing, and sounds high in bad cholesterol too. But what would I know? I would like my pasty with the orange bits.
Does anyone know how to delete bookmarks with this apparently updated Firefox? At least I assume it's a Firefox thing.
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Timohio just showed up on the 'performance' thread. Noted that he had given up on this blog but could not let a slur go unchallenged.
Bere
How did the rally go?
I don't use Firefox, but there should be a delete function in the pull-down menu you use to access bookmarks.
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Daughter just called and told me how to delete the bookmarks. I would never have figured that out on my own. Why does Firefox make things more complicated with their upgrades? The tabs look funny and are harder to read too.
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Bere,
Does it say firefox anywhere on the top bar? It may be Safari.
If it is firefox, open the sidebar (ctrl/b or view/sidebar/bookmarks) Right-click the bookmark you want to delete, and select delete. There's really no need to delete bookmarks, though, as just entering a few letters in the "search" box at the top of the bookmarks sidebar will get the bookmark you're looking for, even if you've got hundreds...
If it's Safari, ask a mac person or get firefox.
Publius, Pasties are meant to be eaten cold. They're a Cornish tin miner's lunch, and the thick end is for holding on to. You're not meant to eat that bit because your hands are filthy with toxic tin ore...
;-)
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Heloise - Our comments crossed in the mail. Yes, I'm using Firefox. But now I know how to do the bookmarks thing.
publius - The rally was interesting, all the usual suspects for Vermont, tie-dye, etc., but I was disappointed at the numbers. They were hoping for at least 1000, but I'm sure there weren't that many.
I decided to have a look around inside the State House, having never been inside, and there was just a sheriff's deputy outside the door, he took a peek inside my purse, and that was it. Not even a metal detector, nobody looked under the coat I had over my arm, I wandered freely all over the building. I wonder if it's like that in any other state.
The most interesting aspect of the rally was that in one spot there were two people holding a banner that said "Abortion is not health care" and "You can LIVE without assisted suicide" and they were simply ignored. No arguments, no confrontations. The same with a guy who had a really huge sign that said "Obama: A [person who engages in unnatural acts with maternal parent]." He stood there ignored and unmolested. Which is one of the things I really like about Vermont. No fights, just complete disinterest. Some of the guys should really try that tactic on MA and TT.
I'm glad I lent my presence and my signature on petitions for health care. I had to leave before Bernie Sanders spoke, to go get my computer.
My pirate music bookmark is still there!
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Bere
Glad to hear your pirate boarded your new computer. I would have found him again for you.
I was at a rally in Lansing about a year ago. There were a couple state police walking a beat inside the Capitol, but no metal detectors or searchs. I took some people in my group visiting the capitol for the first time on a tour. There was a 'farmer's market' on the green.
The bill we were trying to get passed was signed into law. It was to update the cable communications act. We were there for our company. A good time was had by all.
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publius -
I'm glad your rally was successful. It remains to be seen if ours has any affect. Something I had never realized until a couple of women of spoke on the subject today is that many women stay in abusive relationships solely because their health insurance is through their husband's job and they have pre-existing conditions and can't get any other insurance. What a sad situation. It seems the law now requires continued coverage for children but didn't used to and one woman stayed for 20 years with an abusive husband because their daughter had cancer and the husband threatened to cut them all off from his insurance if the wife took the children and left.
Supposedly all my stuff is on the new computer but it's taking me awhile to find everything. I used to have it all on my desktop, very cluttered but at least I knew where it was. I thought the bookmarks were screwy but I just had too many. (Those of course were not on my desktop.) And if I download something to my desktop, I don't know how to put it somewhere else so it just stays there forever.
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Bere
I never even thought of women staying in abusive relationships because of health care insurance. What a terrible way to live. I wonder how often they had to go to an emergency room because of the abuse? An odd trade-off.
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publius -
It is a terrible way to live and not something I would ever put up with. I'd rip the man's guts out first. But I'm not usually a violent person!
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Bere
I made the mistake, once, of getting involved in a 'domestic dispute'. The downstairs neighbor used to take a round out of his girlfriend on all to regular a basis; usually starting about 11:00pm. I talked with the girlfriend one day and gave her a card and pamphlet to a crisis center. The boyfriend came after me, but men who beat women are very often cowards when facing another man. He made threats and chose to leave my porch.
I called the police. The girlfriend filed a report. Left for several days only to return. A month later they were married, and the abuse continued. The apartment manager finally evicted them when all the adjoining neighbors launched a protest.
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publius
Now that is something I will never understand: women marrying men who have already been abusive. But then there is much about human behavior that I don't understand.
Good for you for at least trying to help her. I once warned an acquaintance against getting involved with a man I knew to be abusive but she just laughed at me and told me I didn't understand him. Well, no, and I didn't understand her either.
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Sam has written an excellent comment at #251 on the Obama's Improved Performance thread. I hope everyone will read it, and stop with the back and forth with that particular poster who simply wants to bait people and ruins every thread. It has become painful to see those long replies (which I don't read anymore either) as if anyone can change that ghastly person's mind about anything at all. I think you are providing him with validation whether you mean to or not. If any of you read this, please give Sam's comment some serious thought.
Thank you.
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Thank you, Bere
I did read his comment and gave our good Samwise some kind encouragement. I cannot understand why the terrible bile that a certain person spews is allowed while some truly innocent comments are censored.
I agree that the best way to deal with this is to ignore it. I have already been accused of "putting my nose in the air" and ignoring certain people by the 'TT' person. There is no point in engaging with some people. They do no want dialog or true debate, they want only to pollute any real discussion with their own sewage.
I say total boycott of all of this nastiness. Some try so hard to be reasonable with them but do not understand that there is no reason there.
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I have made one comment; I will leave it there a short while (mods permitting) just to draw attention to how disgusting he is, and then I propose to have his deleted.
And I will report every single damn post of his where I can find any even minor breach of the House Rules in future. He's gone way beyond the pale.
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Thank you both, aqua and british. I did not reply to Sam's post on the other thread because I didn't want to be attacked by the other person (even though I wouldn't know about it because I no longer read his posts). Cowardly of me I suppose but he sickens me and I feel soiled if he addresses me. If british's plan works, the rest of us can then perhaps have reasonable disagreements without all that bile. But I think boycotting him might eventually discourage him if he realizes he's talking into thin air. It's gotten to the point that once he shows up on the thread, it might as well be abandoned. I hope future kitchens will not be on threads with his rants, because the air is poisonous there.
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The windbag was ignored by most everyone a while back. He disappeared for a month, or so. What a sad, empty life it must be to live inside such a troubled mind. A spirit without joy.
I agree with Sam's post 251. I joined this blog because there was much thoughtful discussion with well-reasoned, source-supported debate from many places around the globe. That made it interesting and challenging. A few shallow, single-minded posters have made the blog uninteresting and odius.
I still do enjoy the kitchen party.
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It's been kinda quite in the kitchen. I'm just a-wonderin'.
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To#240 Shaman
Too funny!
I have been busy painting my own personal kitchen this week end. My dear one went off to hike the mountains and do 'guy stuff' with some friends. It is a rare opportunity for me to do things of which he does not approve such as climbing a ladder. (I have been very careful and my grand child is a great help.)
We finished yesterday afternoon. Stupidly, I got into a bit of tangle on the other thread by replying to a post of our good Samwise but I ignored the 'MII' person who has been particularly vitriolic there. I am a bit tired this day.
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To Bere
In a previous post you mentioned a Boston radio commentator who was blaming immigrants for spreading this flu. I think this person has been suspended from his job because of these comments. Can you confirm?
I would hope this is so. Hate mongering is totally repugnant and has no place there. It must be confronted and given consequences. Civilized debate on public media does not allow the spewing of hatred and bile and inciting to riot. That goes way beyond free speech.
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239, publius -
I too have been wonderin' where everyone'd gone. I think timewaits must not have internet at her summer home on the river. Maybe seanspa is still wrangling with his new front door.
I really do think if everyone completely ignored that blogger he would eventually get tired of talking to himself. Must admit I'm so intimidated that I didn't even want to correct the person who said Obama is descended from slaves, but now I see someone else did. I'm not going to post anything on that thread now.
Went on over to the diner for a grilled biscuit-and-egg and heard the scuttlebutt that the water main is not fixed after all and the water will be shut off at 7:00 a.m. tomorrow until they don't know when and when it's turned back on we'll have to boil our water "until further notice." Well, I'd not had notice at all so it's a good thing I went to the diner, the source of all good information. At least now I can have every vessel filled with water before dawn, and take a shower late tonight. The water dept. had informed all food type businesses on this side of the river that they have to close down tomorrow but other than put a tiny notice in the paper (which is a rag I rarely read) they didn't see fit to notify the rest of us.
The weather guy from the radio was at the diner and explained to me in great detail, with diagrams, how to get a low-flush toilet to flush itself. I'm going to practice today and hope not to flood the bathroom.
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242, aqua -
I don't know about the radio guy. I usually only listen to his program when I'm brushing my teeth at night and as I recall the last time I turned on my little bathroom radio it was Thursday or Friday (he's only on on weeknights) his show was pre-empted by a baseball game. I'll listen tonight and see what I can find out.
Another tidbit I found out at the diner this morning is that some 40 academy students came back from Mexico last week, so you may see us on the international news as the latest school/town to be shut down due to the "plague." How glorious that will be -- "terrible" disease, supposed to wash hands frequently, no water! Oh wait, they're on the other side of the river, they'll have water. So maybe it will be only those of us on this side of the river who'll drop like flies. Oh, it's all so ridiculous.
Sorry to blather on, but every time the news says how many people have the flu, I say to the radio: "How many people died of malaria yesterday?"
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Bere
Local diners are wonderful for getting all of the 'news' some real and a lot of the 'someone told me' variety. I am so sorry about your water woes. As a desert dweller, I can so empathize. We have had our pump go out a time or two and always at the most inconvenient moment!
As for the vitriol on the other thread. I am finished there. I think that many posters have been driven away by this. Now, one cannot even respond to posts from other posters without being attacked. I so agree with you about feeling "soiled" after a visit and neither one of us can afford to waste water in showers!
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aqua -
Because I enjoy sitting at the counter in the diner, I straddle two worlds here - the diner folk and the artsy-ritzy crowd (who would never sit at the counter and think I am one of them). I am privy to a lot of information and attitudes my friends and acquaintances know nothing about. I was able to explain to them why the majority of town folk voted against the appropriation for the arts center on Town Meeting day (food for the table ranks higher than food for the soul). My kids find it very odd when we are walking around town and strange (to them) men in pick-up trucks holler out their windows to me. "Do you know that guy?" they ask with surprise and a modicum of disapproval. (They don't disapprove of the guys, just of having their mother hollered at from pick-up trucks.)
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Bere
Being "hollered at" from pickup trucks is a part of rural/small town living, at least in most parts of the US. It is not meant to be rude, just neighborly.
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aqua -
I know that, and my kids know that, but it's apparently different when it's their mother being hailed by strange men (even though the men are not strangers to me). My kids are hypersensitive about my being accosted by strange men. It's very funny.
I think I was bad on the other thread but I couldn't help it. I thought that Louisiana guy was over the top, dictating what someone cannot say about the US when I've never seen him chastise the really derisive and slanderous person. Fair is fair. But perhaps I'm wrong, since I've stopped reading those posts and the replies to them.
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Bere
William Least-heat Moon, in his book Blue Highway had a rating system for small-town diners based on the number of calendars from local businesses found posted on the walls. A place without any calendars was to be avoided, unless there was no other choice and one is desparately hungry; three and four calendar diners assure a good meal and pleasant service. Five calendar diners are rare, but they are akin to finding jewels. The food is excellent, service superb, and everyone is welcome to join in most any conversation. The legendary six calendar diner is out there somewhere waiting to be found. I dream and search for it in my travels.
I always count the calendars when entering a diner in small towns because I have found his rating system to be very valid.
The other rating system I have used is whether a diner has a counter, or a 'long table', or both. The counter most often is the place where conversations are easily started up with whomever is at the counter. Be they a regular patron, or a stranger. The 'long table' is for locals to talk politics, gossip, and tell tales. A stranger sitting at the 'long table' is usually made to feel unwelcome, but can gain acceptance if the stranger can well state their reason for joining the table. I generally tell the locals that I hate eating alone and like learning about the area and meeting it's people, when asking if I can join them at the table.
The 'ideal' is a counter and 'long table'. One can toss in some ideas and opinions from the counter, or a clever story before joining the table.
I often travel alone. I also like to hear what people in other parts are thinking and saying and doing. A four calendar diner with a counter and 'long table' are like being home with friends and family.
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Aquarizonagal
Was out taking a ride on my motorcycle and went back to my home town yesterday on my way to visit my brother.
I remember when that little burg was neighborly. People would be outside working in their yards on the fine day we had. A passing car or truck gave a toot, or someone gave a 'holler'; or at least a wave. Often the vehicle would stop and one would go to the street to talk with the motorist.
As I drove through town yesterday, it reminded me of a Paul Simon song; "...nothing but the dead alive back in my little town...". It was like visiting a ghost town. No children playing in the park, nor riding bicycles along the sidewalks. Not a soul strolling down the streets. Nobody working in their yards. Cars passed one another without the least acknowledgement.
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Bere
Americhrista?
I got a laugh from that one. Clever!
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publius -
I'm afraid our diner would fail the calendar test. There isn't any wall space to put calendars on (and if local businesses have calendars I am unaware of it). Windows take up all the wall space, except where the two "special of the day" dry-erase boards are. We don't have a "long table" either but we do have a horseshoe-shaped counter which facilitates conversation and even tourists who sit at the counter when the tables are full are welcome to join any conversation.
The service is great, the waitresses excellent, but the owner, Tony, has high fallutin' ideas and it's become pretty expensive. He uses only local free-range eggs (I'm imagining eggs rolling freely around the barnyard) and has gotten very health conscious and the french fries are no longer greasy so the salt doesn't stick to them. Even my very fastidious son will eat there now since the food is not drenched in grease. Tony is planning a sidewalk cafe for the summer. Heresy! He might have to call it Tony's Bistro.
The old overweight guys with high cholesterol love to complain about the changes but I think they really appreciate that they can still hang out at their favorite place and yet tell their doctors they are cutting down on the bad stuff.
Our diner is listed in some book about the best diner hamburgers in the country. I haven't had one, but they do look like they'd be tasty if one is into patties of cow flesh.
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249. Publius.
Thanks for that.
The lack of a reliable rating system of that nature is why Tim Horton's, at one level, and Denny's at another level, both prosper.
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249. Publius.
I just left you a thank you note for your comment at 249.
I am going to try this out.
However I suspect my comment will be moderated out because I unthinkingly also referred, (favorably, I might add), to two retaurant chains that provide consistent quality to travelers.
Speaking of which, I am reminded of a former Leaf, about the same size, and having a similar style of play to Chris Pronger.
The other one is a homonym of the first name of a great Islander's defenceman of the 70's and 80's
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I suppose it may be better for our collective health in the US but I will be sad when all of the local diners are gone. Where else will my dear one get his 'chicken fried' steak and gravy?
Shaman,
I agree with what you have written about diners. We have traveled a lot of the US, staying on the back roads and minor highways as much as possible. Most folk are friendly to those who are open and interested in them.
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To#254 Interestedforeignor
Welcome! Will you take tea or something a bit stronger?
For some reason the PTBs are less likely to censor on this 'kitchen thread' for such as your post #253. I am not sure why this is so and have given up trying to understand the whole process.
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Interestedforeignor
And you're not just talking Timbits!
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When I've travelled around the country I've always looked for diners, or at least independently-owned restaurants. What's the point of travelling if you're going to eat at the same fast-food or chain places? I haven't been inside a fast food place for many years. And I prefer my french fries greasy, so as to stick as much salt to them as possible. Tony's used to have batter-fried veggies. Yum. I miss those.
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If the salt cannot adhere to the grease then the food is definitely not greasy enough. Batter fried veggies Are so good! Perhaps even a carrot might be palatable when battered and fried. However, I am not volunteering to do the first taste test.
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I should add that we once lived for several years in the deep South. It was amazing to me exactly how many foods could be battered and deep fried.
Some were actually most excellent, okra for only one example.
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257. Publius.
Another debt of gratitude. Now that's a national anthem.
I'm also fairly partial to Stompin' Tom Connors' Hockey song, but there's nothing like that original HNIC theme.
Da-da da-da da dah!
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The storm made bliss of my sea-borne awakenings.
Lighter than a cork, I danced on the waves
which men call the eternal rollers of victims,
for ten nights, without once missing the foolish eye of the harbor lights!
Sweeter than the flesh of sour apples to children,
the green water penetrated my pinewood hull
and washed me clean of the bluish wine-stains
and the splashes of vomit, carrying away both rudder and anchor.
And from that time on I bathed in the Poem
of the Sea, star-infused and churned into milk,
devouring the green azures where, entranced
in pallid flotsam, a dreaming drowned man sometimes goes down;
where, suddenly dyeing the blueness,
deliriums and slow rhythms under the gleams of the daylight,
stronger than alcohol, vaster than music,
ferment the bitter rednesses of love!
--Rimbaud
Hello to all!
Back on shore. I am hopelessly in love with the sea.
Yours,
Pinko
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I am terrible. I have just posted two comments on the 'performance' thread that may provoke the 'MII' person. I could not help myself. Why should this person drive so many away who would like to have civil debate and a discourse that involves learning and sharing.
He thinks he wants to have debate with me. Why? I am not learned, logical nor will I resort to personal insult. I wonder how long he would last until he got bored.
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256. Aqua.
Well, there are at least two possibilities:
First, the moderators may be in India, and they don't know who Tim Horton was; or
Second, they do know who Tim Horton was, and are letting it through as a public reminder that there was a time, before the Harold Ballard era, when the Leafs were a team to be reckoned with.
Yet now they will be entering their 42nd re-building season.
Lots of fans have realized that the reason the Hall of Fame is in Toronto is because otherwise the Cup would never return to Toronto.
Hockey Rant:
As a life long Habs fan, that wouldn't generally have bothered me, but to see both of these teams fallen so low. Dear me. National disgrace, really. We can't even win at our own game - sort of like England in Soccer (football), cricket, rugby, ...
(Detroit may be sort of an honorary Canadian city in a hockey sense, but still, its not quite the same.)
Stanley hasn't been home in a long time. That needs fixin.
Not going to happen in Toronto, though - at least not while its owned by the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan. How ridiculous. As if a pension plan is going to know how to run a hockey team and restore national honour.
Of course, it might happen if there were another team in Toronto, to force the Leafs to put a competitive team on the ice. You know, a team owned by, say, a business tycoon with drive and desire, who would do what it takes to get the job done. Gosh, where would you find one of those? Guess you wouldn't want to look in say, Waterloo, Ontario. Nope, wouldn't want to do that.
No other place has more than one team, right? Manhattan: New York Rangers; Uniondale Long Island: Islanders; East Rutherford NJ: Devils. Three completely different places. Totally different markets. (Forget about the NY Americans, forget about the Hartford Whalers, forget about the Montreal Maroons)
No, the NHL only puts teams in real hockey hotbeds - like Tampa, Nashville, the Carolinas. There wouldn't be any hockey fans in places like, say, Hamilton or North York.
The NHL needs a new commissioner. And a few other things, too. Starting with an anti-trust lawsuit.
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259. At 01:28am on 04 May 2009, aquarizonagal:
I am of the firm belief that all vegetables are far better cooked and should never be consumed au naturel. I have, to my great delight, even succeeded in cooking lettuce, a very proud moment. Same for fruit, except possibly strawberries and bananas. Much better in pies, crumbles, fools, and jam.
(I have had years of rowing about my vegetables with a friend who will insist on 'disappearing' my carrots and celery off my chopping board and leaving me nothing to braise or saute for dinner. We have never been able to see eye to eye on this.)
Battered vegetables, though. . .More criminality, if you ask me. Cruel. Carrots should be sauteed very gently in a little butter in a pan with a lid tightly closed with the aid of a dishcloth, then caramelised a little with sugar. Bliss. (Florentine recipe.)
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To#262 Chronophobe
Sour green apples! We children so did love to eat them and despite our Mother's warnings, we never got sick.
I love the ocean but only to watch from the shore, sorry land lubber that I am. It seems as though you had a wonderful experience.
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aqua, I've heard that there's someplace in the South where they deep fry Twinkies. I would rather have carrots, thank you.
I hope you saw Via-Media's 357 on the other thread.
Welcome back, chronophobe. Lovely poem, even the bit about the vomit.
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I don't understand any of that stuff about hockey but I'm sure it's a lovely sport. I saw it once on a bar TV and at least there was much action, unlike baseball and football (not soccer). But that little puck is harder to spot than the Snitch.
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#267 Bere
Yes I did and I am so on that thread! Trolls, indeed!
Why should one person or a few be allowed to pollute a forum which should be open and welcoming to all? I think some posters may have been intimidated or disgusted from posting and that is just so wrong!
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#265 British
But if you do not consume veggies "au naturel" how can you appreciate the true state of their supreme nudity? Fresh from the garden, soil clinging to the roots, scent of earth and sunshine, it is sublime and as nature intended.
Then there is always butter and batter deep fried.
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To#268 Bere
Unless the puck lands in a spectator's beer. I think I saw something about that happening at a game in Boston once. The fan pulled out the puck, threw it out on the ice, then drank his beer. There is nothing like having ones priorities correctly aligned!
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270. At 02:44am on 04 May 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:
#265 British
But if you do not consume veggies "au naturel" how can you appreciate the true state of their supreme nudity? Fresh from the garden, soil clinging to the roots, scent of earth and sunshine, it is sublime and as nature intended.
Ugh. Worms. Snails. Slugs. Sh....ooops, manure. . . .
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Ref 264
Vancover is still in the mix! They're only playing Chicago. We don't think much of the Black Hawks in Detroit;-)
There is a very large crowd of Wings fans from Windsor that cross the river every game. Detroit is happy to have them. We love our hockey in this town, and we love people who know the game. I've been waiting for a Canadian team to win the cup. It will be one heck of a party in Windsor. The Ducks are hungry for a cup. Triple over-time today.
Pinko
Glad to hear the shake-down cruise went so well. There is nothing like messing around in boats. My skipper may not be racing this year. Times are a little tight. The crew is offering to help out with the fees, but Skipper is a proud type. We're working on him, though.
Great Poem.
Bere
There's a fish and chips place in Windsor (actually Walkerville, home of Hiram Walker Distilleries) where they batter and deep-fry a Milky Way candy bar, served with whipped cream. It's really quite a treat.
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Britishish
Butter do not forget the butter.
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Um, deep-fried Milky Way? I love deep-fried and I love chocolate, but I think never the twain shall meet. I'll just take your word for it that it's a treat, publius.
Aqua, tasty as nude veggies are, some us cannot digest them easily and have to refrain. But there is nothing like lettuce straight from the garden. I love that faint taste of garden soil. But can do without the manure, as british points out. Also, I never buy broccoli from the farmer's market because I would rather be poisoned than eat those nasty little worms that no amount of washing removes. When I see their little dead steamed bodies I lose my appetite.
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Aqua
Butter should always been the main dish in a meal. Everything else is a side.
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aquagal,
I know this is heretical, but I get a kick out of Marcus' over-the-top ranting. Just compare him to TimmmmaaaayyyyyyR444 and the poopy patriotic pouting he spouts out. Marcus at least tries to be funny.
His true opinions (about which I don't care to much consider) notwithstanding, Marcus loves to stir things up. He may be a total @&&, but he's generally a playful one. Don't let him get under your skin.
Fight bombast with blarney, I say.
Yours,
Pinko
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chrono
I don't think there is anything at all playful about MA. He has been really vicious on this latest thread. It's not just aqua who is disgusted and fed up, but many people, including me, have expressed the same thing. He has attacked people who haven't even responded to him, about things that have nothing to do with him. I really don't see anything funny about it. He was really ugly about a trivial jesting exchange between aqua and british-ish, and I think that was just about the last straw for SamTyler. I really hope you won't encourage him.
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Aquarizonagal
Green apples, Yum. My eldest sister would take a salt shaker with her to the orchard, climb a tree and feast on green apples. My middle sister and I would just eat them as they came from the tree.
Twice I got cramps from eating green fruit. The first time was with apples. Things worked out before medical intervention. The second time caused a late-night run to the doctor who discovered the cause. When I was discovered my mother told the doctor she had asked if I had been in the green apple trees and I had told her I had not.
I said, "I wasn't in the apple trees, I was in a pear tree." Good humor saved my backside from being warmed.
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Bere
Worms? There should be no worms on organic broccoli. Do these people know nothing?
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#277 Chronophobe
He has not gotten "under my skin." I actually feel sorry for him because he seems so miserable. I tried to be kind to him a long time ago but he did not want that so I have totally ignored him. Recently he has taken to attacking me whenever I post, even when the post is not in response to him. At first it was a bit disconcerting but then I decided not to be intimidated from posting on a thread if I want to do so.
Mostly, I find him mean spirited, pathetic and sad. However, he should not be encouraged to dominate the discourse and close out posters from other countries or those who might feel too timid to post their thoughts.
While he might be amusing at times, it is not fair to these posters that he carry every thread to his own lair.
Sorry, if I am being too serious in the kitchen but I felt this needed to be stated.
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Pinko
Returning from Isle Royal National Park (Lake Superior) on a ferry we were battling 6m (20') foot waves. The pilot was riding the crests in the most wonderful show of skilled helmsmanship. He was doing his best to make the voyage as comfortable as possible. SonnyA had eaten a chocolate bar just before departure without me knowing.
Aaah, he was a brave sailor for the first half of the 4 hour trip. Then a fellow passenger was trying to be macho and would not listen to advice kindly given that he should take to the rail. He was rather pleased with himself that he had found a waste bin. Of course the cabin was closed and the smell got to SonnyA. I helped my 14 year-old child on deck and held him at the rail. There was about 3/4ths of the passengers feeding fishies along the rails.
It's such a perverse pleasure to keep one's color when all about are green; and know they detest you:-)
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aqua
Well, there are worms. Perhaps no one has told them they aren't supposed to be on organic broccoli. Is there some organic way of keeping them off the broccoli? This is very expensive broccoli, but maybe that's because it comes with worms.
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bere
There are a lot of good ways to keep worms from the broccoli!
As far as expensive, we would not know about that because ours was free for the cutting this season, part of what we could not harvest to sell without our good help.
Sorry, I am tired and feeling just a little cranky this night.
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OK, OK, I said it was heresy. I must have a high tolerance for that kind of crap.
Publius,
20ft. waves!! That may be beyond my stomach's capacity for punishment. The roughest water we hit this trip was in the dreaded Georgia Straight. It is churned by strong currents and wind into steep, choppy seas. The biggest this time were about 6ft. More than that I would not wish to endure.
Unfortunately, to get to the good cruising grounds up the Sunshine Coast or down to the San Juans, you have to cross the Straight. A true right of passage.
Best of luck getting your skipper on the water. Maybe you could form a formal consortium?
Yours,
Pinko
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Bere
The worms are an efficient way of converting starchs and sugars to protein. That's why they charge so much for 'organic' broccoli;-)
Keep in mind that there are no regulations governing what is labeled 'organic'; there are only guidelines. I do not have any confidence in what is labeled 'organic'. An organic farm may be surrounded by farms using petro-chemicals. Over-spray, rain run-off, chemicals leaching into the soil, will find their way into the 'organic' farm. Ground water is terribly saturated with petro-chemicals.
As a lad, I would 'disappear' into the woods around our farm for a week or two in the glorious time when cultivation was completed and there was little to do until harvest. I would eat 'bullhead' catfish from the creeks along with wild berrys, roots, and other 'weeds' that grew wild in woods and unfarmed meadows. Farmers started using petro-chemicals and in a few years my halcyon days came to an end. There were no earthworms in the soil for bait. Just as well, because there were no fish in my old fishing holes.
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publius -
Whenever I hear (or read) the word "guidelines," Captain Jack Sparrow pops into my mind!
I certainly don't go out of my way to buy organic. It is always way more costly and I have my suspicions about it. The only really nasty carrots I've ever had were supposedly organic. They were so bitter as to be inedible. I just try not to think about what's in or on my food, as long as it's not visible to the naked eye. I was much more picky when I was feeding children.
That's a shame about the earthworms and the fishing holes. How long ago was this? I thought farmers started using these chemicals shortly after WWII.
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Bere
Petro-chemical fertilizers were used in the late 30's early 40's. It wasn't until the early 60's that chemical pesticides and herbicides came into use. They are the worse of the three. There was very little information about any dangers in handling and breathing these chemicals provided at the time of purchase. I remember working for a farmer who stuck his bare arm into the spray tanks to stir in the chemicals. I cautioned him against doing so. His reply; "Aw! If it was bad for me, they would've told me about it." He died at 46 years of age. A cancer later linked to his exposure to the chemicals.
Remember DDT?
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273 Publius; 275 Bere
Isn't deep fried chocolate bar something of a contemporary Scottish delicacy?
Ed? Are you there? Have you knowledge of these things?
The film "Comfort and Joy", set in Scotland (Edinburgh?) had this recurring theme of trying to invent a battered deep-fried ice cream bar, the premise being that deep fried chocolate bars were old hat.
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286 - Publius and Bere
The landmark work: "Silent Spring" by Rachel Carson.
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And, to all carrot lovers, the immortal music of Bugs:
"Carrots are divine,
you get a dozen for a dime,
It's ma-aaaaa-gic"
Oh, for some tender, juicy, fresh carrots early in the year, grown in sandy soil, nicely chilled, crunchy and sweet, or cooked in herbs, basil and tomato soup just lightly ...
"... and I'll fall asleep, counting my [carrots]"
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This thread has turned into a one-topic discussion. Marcus the worm. I'd show him the door!
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292, seanspa
So that's what's on the organic broccoli? Euwwwwww.
Reading 291 has caused a craving for carrots for breakfast.
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287. At 05:22am on 04 May 2009, bere54 wrote:
"publius -
I certainly don't go out of my way to buy organic. It is always way more costly and I have my suspicions about it. The only really nasty carrots I've ever had were supposedly organic. They were so bitter as to be inedible.'
I'd been wondering why the organic thing didn't seem to be taking off in the US like it has in Britain and Europe. They're more expensive here, but not that much, not now most supermarkets have as much if not more organic produce on their shelves as 'factory' stuff.
The carrots, well, must depend on the breed. My nude carrot eating friend gallops out and buys furiously in the market as soon as she arrives in London; the ones in Brussels for some reason (even the organic ones) are all woody dry and stringy, while ours are usually crisp, juicy and a little sugary. Conversely, the types of potato they have in Brussels (and France) are peculiarly sweet. They're horrible. She demands potoatoes - boiled, roasted, mashed - too . . .
(Seanspa: Showing Marcus the door is one thing. Shoving him through it into outer darkness is proving more difficult than I thought.)
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294, british
I think here in the US anything that is "new" and faddish is more expensive. Organic veggies seem to fall into that category. I have no idea if growing organically costs so much more to justify the price of the veggies. One medium-size organically-grown tomato costs $3 at our local farmer's market. Last summer I bought some because I love tomatoes and the ones in the supermarket are never very good, but the $3 tomatoes, though very pretty, turned out to be as pale inside and as tasteless as the supermarket ones. I don't know what to make of this.
In years past I've grown my own tomatoes. It was easy and they were beautiful and gloriously red inside and delicious. So I don't understand why it has become so difficult to find a decent tomato, organic or otherwise.
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295. At 2:54pm on 04 May 2009, bere54 wrote:
We had (still have, sometimes) the same problem with tomatoes. Over the years people revolted. But I think they're taking you for a ride, somehow.
(We have the same sort of problem getting really good fresh eggs, but then I do live in the middle of London and the last local farm disappeared 130 years ago or thereabouts. But a stallholder in the market sells excellent duck eggs from Norfolk. And I've found out a guy keeps chickens in one of the private garden squares nearby. Just a matter of tracking down where they lay the eggs there, though I fear the magpies and jays might be getting there first. Unless the local foxes have got the chickens again. They're breeding furiously around here.)
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BBC HATE posts ans little boys belittling each other all the time.
Mods removing because they are called into question.
Meanwhile more threads are nothing but lessons for school bullies and cowards.
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Bere and British-ish
There are more than a few variables that affect color, texture and taste of produce. One, is the 'variety' of the plant. Tomatoes are a good example.
There are well more than a hundred varieties of tomatoes. Many hybredized, a growing number are genetically modified. Most often, tomatoes sold in supermarkets are bred, or designed, to reduce (or modify) sugar content as a means to extending transportability and shelf-life. The natural break-down of sugars is what brings on spoilage. Bruising fruit starts the spoilage process, so the skin and pulp is designed to be 'tough'. Remove the sugars, extend shelf-life. Sugars are also the main component of flavor. Less sugar, less taste. That is why most supermarket produce has very little flavor. It is designed to be transported great distances while remaining unspoiled and presentable for very long periods of time.
The local 'mom and pop' produce growers can use varieties that do not need to stand up to a lot of handling and transport, so they can use varieties that have much higher sugar content; thus more flavor, juice, and better texture. Also, far more nourishing because they are fully ripened on the vine.
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BBC HATE posts ans little boys belittling each other all the time.
Mods removing because they are called into question.
Meanwhile more threads are nothing but lessons for school bullies and cowards.
236 Aqua.
the problem is that the mods are not policingt heir own site.
I tried to argue with IT for ages, tried to show there was no logic behind the mask so the assumptions are not true because they are made by the assumer.
Everyone told me to lay off.
I did. and now?
they all understand Why I was offensive.
But belittling a prat day in day out makes one a bully. so I gave up and started engaging those with brain cells.
but the more I see the mods removing comments etc.
the constant promotion of the MATT (can you really not see it) by the Mods when there is ample reason just to say NO.
seems like a cheap tabloid agenda.
soon the BBC will have it's own page 3 spread.
I can pull it off with the best onf them on the MAtt bash,, but really.
At what point is it just TOOOOOOO repetitive.
at what point is it beyond humour and into sick bullying from US and the prat.
like watching the unartistic and sad sketches in "little Britain", two series in and she still pukes everywhere.
OK funny once but every week?
So I will try to ignore you good folk as I try to ignore the BBC.
Don't take it personally.
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British-ish
I needed to get the belt on my leather chaps repaired and remembered a hole-in-the-wall place that makes leather goods. One could drive past this place hundreds of times without noticing it.
I rang the bell. A man came to the door and eyed me closely before opening the door so I could enter. Once inside I could detect the smell of live chickens amoung the odors of leather. A chicken escaped from the back room and the man became a little nervous. There are city ordinances against raising livestock. "Now that's the way to get fresh eggs.", I commented with a smile. The man became at ease with me.
This man and his son makes leather seats for automobile company and keeps a flock of chickens in a large storeroom he doesn't need for his leather supply. He was proud to show off his chickens when I told him a grew up on a farm and raised Rhode Island Reds. He completed the simple repair of my chaps at no charge.
Now, I not only get really fresh eggs at a very reasonable price; but also fresh chicken manure to work into my garden:-) The manure is high in nitrogen.
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Publius
I understand why the supermarket tomatoes are so bland but this doesn't explain why the tomatoes at the farmer's market, which are from close-by farms and gardens, were just as bland. This year I will venture out of town and try the roadside stands to make a scientific comparison.
I think everybody should be allowed to have chickens no matter where they live. Except perhaps apartments. That could be problematic.
On Wednesday I go off to housesit (for one day only) at a friend's farm where I can frolic with the lambs and new-born chicks. I sincerely hope that this time the chickens won't menace me and force me to give them an afternoon feeding.
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Greetings!
As an organic grower, please allow me to provide some information. You are all correct that the terms "organic" or even "certified organic" do not necessarily guarantee quality, flavor, or safety. An example would be the Salinas grower whose organic spinach was loaded with e-coli due to water run off from cattle pens.
Organic vegetables can be outrageously expensive because growers are riding a fad and want your dollars. Many of these enterprises I consider a form of agribiz because the farms are large, only recently turned to 'organic' in order to ride the current wave. I do not care if they have been "certified." This does not necessarily make them good or even safe.
In my opinion, a true organic farm is small and sells only locally. Soil and water are carefully controlled and monitored for quality. Pests are controlled with companion and inter-planting of herbs and flowers. Cabbage worms, for example, would much rather eat parsley than broccoli. The parsley does not mind being 'mowed' and keeps growing back for their dining pleasure.
Vegetable varieties are carefully selected for their flavor, hardiness and ability to adapt to local weather. They are not pampered, only the strong survive, at least in our harsh conditions. These veggies are the best of the best because we work at it.(or did) When we sold our produce we always tried to keep our prices as low as possible because we wanted folks to have readily accessible, nourishing veggies. People have always been welcome to cull our gardens for free once we have harvested.
That, my dear good people, is what a true organic farm should be and it takes years of careful cultivation and hard work. We have done it for love and not for profit. This is my opinion only and many might disagree. We have done all we could to preserve family farms, sustainable agriculture, growing and buying locally and seasonally.
One last bit, if you buy only one thing organically make it potatoes. Those that are conventionally grown in the US contain more pesticide than any other fruit or vegetable. It cannot be washed or peeled away because it has been absorbed by the root.(potato) Potato fields because of their high commercial value are heavily sprayed with things you really do not wish to know about.
Sorry for such a long post but this is a subject important to me. Thank you to any who read it.
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299. At 4:14pm on 04 May 2009, happylaze:
I think I've got to that stage now -- and I can't stand Little Britain, either. There's satire and there's sick satire . . .
Anyway, in a week or so I'll be in Brussels and then the south of France. No internet access there, but I'm sure he'll still be around when I get back in June.
300. publiusdetroit:
Ah, but the chickens whose eggs I'm after are free range. (Though I suspect because of the foxes they aren'r being allowed to range as freely around the garden as they did.) The squirrels btw say they are so pleased there are communist chickens in Rhode Island. Good for them, they say, but lay off the eggs, we need more.
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bere they grow variaties that are easy to grow . or big. or the just right shade of red.
without concern for the flavour.
it's in the genes.
and listening to the lady of the water.
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Publius, I loved Blue Highways! And Aqualass, I love okra any way it comes. The Japanese do a fine line in battered everything - calling it tempura and charging far too much - but you can do it at home. Scotland is famous for its deep-fried battered Mars Bars... but I was amazed the first time I saw a pizza in a chip shop! I said, "I'll have that, please," and tghe girl tossed it into the deep fryer. I was horrified, but it tasted great.
We are in the time of ten thousand greens, and I've been out in the hills and forests taking more pictures and also digging out some old ones. Just popping into the kitchen to scrounge a few leftover bacon sandwiches....
See y'all later, maybe
xx
edsiodos
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aqua
Thank you for that informative post. It's interesting (and a relief) that you mention the cost/fad connection. Here in Vermont organic is God and one is supposed to feel honored to be able to buy organic produce no matter what the cost, or the quality of the produce. We are supposed to revel in bitter-tasting expensive organic carrots over affordable tasty carrots from the supermarket.
Community Supported Agriculture (CSA) is the latest thing to be pushed here. I have nothing against CSAs but the way it's being done is very irritating, and dishonest I think. There's a woman doing radio commentary claiming that if you join a CSA you will save tons of money and not have to deal with the lines at the grocery store. Either she is stupid or she believes the listening audience is stupid. Farmer's markets are ubiquitous in Vermont and anyone can buy what they want and need weekly, choosing exactly which veggies they want, as opposed to paying several hundred dollars up front for the season and having a basket full of stuff of the farmer's choosing handed to them, and if it's a bad growing season they don't get their money back. So it's more like Community Subsidizing Agriculture.
For people who have no financial issues and don't mind risking their money, don't mind someone else choosing their produce for the week, and want to feel good about supporting local farms no matter what, this works well. It also works better for families as opposed to singles, since it's one size fits all and if I joined up I'd end up spending far more money than I do at the farmer's market and store combined and throwing most of the stuff away.
But the way this is being promoted is that it is the best course for everyone and that you're a bad or ignorant person if you don't participate. That sort of attitude always irritates me.
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The "worms" on your broccoli are probably cabbage moth caterpillars and not really worms at all. They're just a bit of skin around a bit of broccoli and probably even more nutritious due to pre-digestion. Just don't wear your glasses at the table.
;-)
ed
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Bere
Tomatoes are very heavy 'feeders' that require well composted soil and a good organic fertilizer such as fish emulsion throughout the growth period in order to supply superior flavor. Watering also has to be carefully controlled. Too much or too little ruins the fruit. As Happy mentioned, the variety of plant is important and must be one that is adapted to local weather conditions.
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302 aquarizonagal:
That's how we see it here, though there are big organic farmers now, although they are policed by both the Soil Association and the big supermarkets. (Which, by the way for the last couple of years have been heavily promoting 'locally grown' produce, though in London, of course, that's not that 'local' really. Though I suppose 30 or 40 miles away in Kent would be 'local' in American terms.
I buy organic milk from my supermarket that actually comes from quite near where I was born, to my surprise: at least, right a bit over the fells and up a bit. Doesn't taste quite how I remember it when we got it from a farm a mile down the road when I was a kid, but at least it's the same kind of cows and the same pasture. (It's a funny thing, but I can make real Lancashire Hotpot now, because the local Moroccan butchers actually sell mutton. (Well, older lamb, really, but it's closer.) It's the oysters to put in it that are expensive. My English great-grandma would be very shocked.
Kind of makes me a bit homesick, though I've been a city boy since I was 18. (The trouble is it sometimes takes a public scandal -- there was one last year over a huge (not organic) turkey farmer that effectively finished off their business inside a week-- to make sure it's really effective.)
I've been very puzzled about all those veggie and fruit salmonella scares in the US. It seems obvious to me where that must come from -- I've done my school holiday stints on the farm, and none of them would ever have allowed it, you don't poison people who can walk over to your farm, do you? -- but I've never seen any sign of a proper investigation into it.
I've really got to like duck eggs now. Funny, I hated them when I was a kid and they were practically given away. But I think those tasted fishier. The river, probably.
I am truly sorry your workers were scared away.
(It's so nice to chat without fearing something you tell people wyll be picked up and sneered at, isn't it. It's occurred to me a good reason to lay off MATT is that all he has to do to follow us into the kitchen is to click on one of our user names to see where we're hiding. But then, we saw TT off.)
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Ref 302 aquarizonagal
I am certain you are also intimately familiar with the use of a long-handle hoe?
We only used chemical fertilizers on our farm. Sparingly, at that. Weed control was done by cultivation...and a lot of action with a long-handle hoe. Pests were not much of a problem. We had a rare infestation of bean beetles one year that required chemical erradication. My father wouldn't watch the crop-duster lay on the chemical. I watched (well up-wind) in fascination as the pilot flew amazing stunts, but cringed as I saw the chemical mist descend upon the crop of Great Northern beans. It felt like a defeat.
Our vegetable garden was always organic. Manure and compost were the only fertilizers used. A great-uncle taught me organic gardening from the time I was a tad. He gave me a subscription to Organic Gardening every year and we always examined each other's garden journals and toured the gardens whenever we visited.
Bere-Growing conditions and quantity of fruit produced per plant also have a big factor in the resulting quality of flavor. Medium to large scale producers use varieties that produce the highest number of fruit per acre. Once again, quality suffers for quantity.
There are many factors involved in crop production. Being a successful farmer requires a great deal of knowledge.
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Ref 309 british-ish
There's a local dairy that produces and processes milk from their own farm. There are no preservatives, nor hormones. The best part is that they sell whole milk amoung their selections of homogenized, low-fat, and skimmed milk.
I had almost stopped drinking milk until I found this place. The junk they sell in stores should be labeled, 'processed dairy-like product'. My son and I go through an half-gallon a day. I can skim the cream and make butter, when I am making something that should be prepared with all the best ingredients.
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aqua and publius
When I had a backyard garden in Virginia, I'd put a few tomato plants in the ground and then pretty much forget about them, and just about every year I had gobs of really delicious tomatoes, often having to give a lot away. Maybe I was just lucky, but it is my own experience that led me to believe there isn't all that much to growing tomatoes. I never used fertilizer and when I did any weeding it was with a hoe. I don't think I even paid attention to what variety the tomatoes were.
Because my house was, though in town, right next to a pasture, I suspect that at one time my backyard was part of the pasture, so perhaps it had been well-fertilized over many years.
As for salmonella and e-coli on organic (or any other kind) veggies, well, I don't know exactly what causes those but I've wondered if any toilet facilities are provided for the field workers.
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When my kids were young, I ordered organic milk through the health food co-op because I didn't want them ingesting all those hormones and other crap (and the organic stuff came in glass bottles which was so cool). Now here in Vermont the milk in the grocery store is labeled so I know which brands have what in them and buy only the localish hormone-free brand.
I could probably get organic milk through the food co-op here but they are really snooty and everything is so expensive and I don't like doing business with them. They have a community garden and just raised the plot fee from $10 to $45, which is outrageous. The other community gardens are free or have a nominal fee. There are people around here who really cannot afford $45 on top of their normal gardening expenses and I suspect this is the co-op's way of weeding out those who are not their "sort." Pun noted but not intended.
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311. At 6:59pm on 04 May 2009, publiusdetroit wrote:
Ref 309 british-ish
There's a local dairy that produces and processes milk from their own farm. There are no preservatives, nor hormones. The best part is that they sell whole milk amoung their selections of homogenized, low-fat, and skimmed milk.
I had almost stopped drinking milk until I found this place. The junk they sell in stores should be labeled, 'processed dairy-like product'. My son and I go through an half-gallon a day. I can skim the cream and make butter, when I am making something that should be prepared with all the best ingredients.
I've heard about that milk. Does it actually comes from cows at all? Sadly, we don't get top-of-the-milk any more, at least not in London (it's already gone for cream and butter and you couldn't skim it out of a tretrapak anyway) unless you splash out on Jersey -- which I do occasionally -- in a proper milk bottle.
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Shaman
Ah yes, the hoe, a wonderful invention and provider of callouses even when wearing gloves. I understand your sorrow over the spraying of the bean fields, along with your delight in the antics of the crop duster. Defeat is something every farmer knows at one time or another but growing things even in a small way is so satisfying, no.
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Bere
I would avoid the CAS. Most are not as successful as they would like people to think and for a single person, not good value. Unless you wish to can, pickle and preserve or eat the same item for days. My granddaughter belongs to one in Colorado which works reasonably well for her but she is feeding five people plus drop ins. She has a large freezer and is willing to can the excess if necessary. They also have a garden and fruit trees.
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Bere
It probably was very good soil and the Virginia climate is much more friendly to growing tomatoes than my own.
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aqua
I bought my house in Vermont in January when the ground was covered in snow, and when I moved up here in April (this was ten years ago) I discovered to my delight that practically the whole side yard was a vegetable patch. As soon as it was warm enough, I tilled and then, being still on a Virginia gardening schedule, planted. Fortunately there was no late frost that year. But come about the middle of May when the leaves were fully out, what did I discover but that the garden got no sun! I hadn't given any thought to all those looming trees. Only the plants at one end came to anything. I got some cucumbers and zucchini that year. One year we did potatoes in that little section. Tomatoes never flourished. It was very disappointing, and I never could figure out what the former homeowners, who had lived there for over 20 years, were thinking to put a garden there.
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Ref 315 aquarizonagal
Sunny days spent alone in the fields with a hoe, turned me copper (that part of my red blood comes to life when I tan) with blond hair almost white. Hours and hours with myself to think and dream and sing to my hearts content. The smell of rich loam and green things growing tickling my nose. A sweating, gallon jug of water trying to stay cool under a sprawling old oak, or maple keeping company with a book, awaiting my rest break. Laying back naked except for work boots and cut-off jeans on matted-down timothy and foxtail to hear the hum of insects and the songs of birds. My mother, sisters, and little brother driving up the farm lane in an old pick-up truck with an old quilt to lay on the grass for a table and a picnic hamper signaled mid-day. We enjoyed lunch together under a tree before they returned to their labors, and I to mine. Everyday a picnic.
I've always been wealthy.
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Shaman
And we have always been wealthy, as well.
Bere
Perhaps 20 years ago that patch enjoyed perfect sunlight for growing before some trees grew up to block the light. You do have many trees there, no?
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publius, you paint an idyllic picture. Are you going to farm again when you go out to Wyoming?
I sometimes think I would like to live on a small farm again, but not in Vermont because the growing season is too short, and until we have universal health care I can't move out of Vermont.
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aqua, it was not a long-unused garden patch; it would have been grown over if so, but looked as if it had been tilled the previous year. Perhaps they kept it clear and tilled in case the trees fell down. Or maybe it was to add a selling point to the house, as the house had been on the market since the previous spring, and they hoped no prospective buyers would notice it got no sun, as I would have had I seen it in summer. But I alleviated my gardening itch by turning the little front yard into a perennial garden, and also managed to nurture cherry tomato plants in the middle of that perennial garden. I sold the house four years ago and hope the new owners haven't pulled up my beautiful plants to turn it back into a yard. I've never been back to look, although it's only about a half-mile away.
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A new thread has begun. It will be interesting to see where it leads.
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Ref 322 bere54
I couldn't say if I would return to farming at my age. It's hard on an aging body; as I'm sure Many Changing Woman would agree. I would have to learn mountain weather. I know the climate cycles here on the Great Lakes. I feel the cycles and know the weather signs. Farming is about weather. Knowing the signs of last and first frosts can be the difference between having a crop to harvest, or a lost season.
There have been a couple opportunities for me to return to farming. Circumstances got in the way. If I find the right set of circumstances and a market niche in Wyoming, I would be drawn to it.
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To#324 Shaman
I laughed!
My dear one and I know all about aging bodies so we are accepting that and moving in different ways now.
I also know what you mean about understanding weather and cycles. My family joke that they can send me out to watch the sky and feel the wind and I can more accurately predict the weather than any other forecaster!
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324, publius
Well, you make yourself sound decrepit, which I'm sure is not the case! And I know just from reading of her many activities that aqua is not decrepit either.
If not farming for market purposes, perhaps a really big kitchen garden would satisfy the hoeing instincts.
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Ref 327 bere54
Certainly not decrepit. I'm not as spry on the tennis courts as I was a couple years ago. Rock climbing has a scale of difficulty starting at 4.0 (climbing a ladder) and running to 5.12 (only the very fit and experienced). I can still climb a 5.8 route, but it's a huff and a puff.
(I get a lot of ribbing from SonnyA about that)
Farming is hard physical work, even with the technology available these days.
Now gardening is a different critter. I cannot get away from playing in the dirt. Even in the city. Some kids never grow up.
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For#309 Britishish and others
Change is a good thing. Nothing should remain static. My dear one remarked recently: "We have done a good thing here and now it is time for something else, my gal. What should we do next?"
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Ah, the garden. The next project. After I've finished off the living room now I finally have the door in. It's wider than the old one so I've got a bit of work to do finishing it off to make up for the extra demolition. Should be worth it though as I understand an extra 4 inches makes a world of difference. I been slowed down a bit by the kids sports. Early start saturday for 3 soccer games, then an even earlier start sunday to get Sean over to spokane for him to to run the bloomsday 12k. Over 50000 people taking part, it's quite some sight. I'd have done it too if I didn't have that extra 40 lbs.
I see Israel made the usual quick visit to the new thread, and people are still gullible enough to respond to the resident stirrer.
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305. At 6:20pm on 04 May 2009, Hesiodos wrote:
I didn't know about the Geograph. Fascinating.
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329, seanspa -
Surely you don't need an extra 4 inches in the doorway because of an extra 40 pounds. That seems a bit extreme.
I hope it doesn't snow on the soccer games or the 12k.
My water's back on. Time for a shower. Found out that the boiling of water order was for last week. We were "notified." Nobody notified me. Good thing the tests showed the water was fine.
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330:
Found a pic on this Geograph thing of one of the places I went swimming when I was a kid. (Looks peaceful enough, but a couple of us nearly got ourselves drowned a bit further upstream when it was in flood once . . .)
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/832865
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I miss timewaits and her pithy and witty remarks (not that the rest of you are not witty). Didn't know that her going off to her summer home meant she would disappear.
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MEANWHILE MY beans, the length of whose rows, added together, was seven miles already planted, were impatient to be hoed, for the earliest had grown considerably before the latest were in the ground; indeed they were not easily to be put off. What was the meaning of this so steady and self-respecting, this small Herculean labor, I knew not. I came to love my rows, my beans, though so many more than I wanted. They attached me to the earth, and so I got strength like Antaeus. But why should I raise them? Only Heaven knows. This was my curious labor all summer- to make this portion of the earth's surface, which had yielded only cinquefoil, blackberries, johnswort, and the like, before, sweet wild fruits and pleasant flowers, produce instead this pulse. What shall I learn of beans or beans of me? .....
The Stalker
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Bere
Maybe the cable has not been turned on yet. If you get missing her too much, maybe I'll have to swing by to pick you up on the scooter and we'll take a ride to Quebec;-) Though I have to get new tires on the bike before I take a long trip.
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To#334 Singer
And some just grow flowers for the joy of them, letting them bloom, seed and re-seed to the heart's content.
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publius
Yeah! How soon can you get those new tires on? Got my renewed passport, ready to go. Though when the border guards see my photo they'll probably arrest me as a terrorist, or at the very least an axe murderer. The person in the photo looks nothing like me! (I hope.)
In the meantime, I'm going to find some dirt to play in. All this gardening talk is making me itchy. One of the waitresses at the diner says she'll share her community plot with me. See, it pays to suck up to diner waitresses.
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Heloise, since timewaits is missing, I'm wondering if you can explain in plain English for dummies if there's a way I can turn off the spell check on Firefox. This updated version doesn't recognize contractions or possessives half the time. It usually happens in my gmail but my sister uses gmail and she doesn't have spell check so that's why I'm thinking it's my Firefox. I've looked under all those pull-down thingies at the top and I can't find spell check anywhere. Or is this a Mac function instead of a Firefox thing?
I'm not sure I can wait til the 16th when Daughter and her boyfriend are coming up. And my list of questions for them grows and grows. All the little red lines are driving me crazy. Much confounded by new computer, updated software, etc.
And why does Firefox want to update itself every seven minutes or so? Okay, every two days. But still.
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333 bere -
You have upped the bar, now I have to think of something witty! I have been spending a lot of time at our summer home and we have yet to install computers there. Also when home, have been trying to catch up on my work. As part of this job I took on, I am to "get the books in order" for the auditor!! Being a last minute person, I have left much to the last minute.
So, what have we been talking about? Gardens - love to garden, flowers mostly but will be putting in a vegetable one this summer. What else? getting old - I'm a day older than I was yesterday! Gaining 40 pounds - if I don't get gardening soon after a lethargic winter....!
Some Canadiana for you all - A gift for Her Majesty. If you ever have the chance to see The RCMP Musical Ride - take it!
This is a little lengthy but, my niece is the first to speak.
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Bere
Don't worry. My face is green in my passport photo. It was a perfectly good passport photo when I sent it in for my renewal.
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timewaits, oh goody, you're back. If Heloise gives me spell check instructions, you can translate! Wittily.
Your first link went to a blank page that said "Bad Request." I said, "Oh, sorry, I didn't mean it" and came back here quick before it could spank me.
Your niece is cute!
publius, though I'm glad timewaits is back, I'm disappointed we don't have an excuse for that trip.
My passport photo is not only hideous but has obscuring squiggly lines all over it. Is this some new secret terrorist-identifying invention? Because of these lines, the photo is not quite as scary as it was when I sent it in. Have you tried crossing the border with your green face yet?
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bere - Look for the <b bit you cleverly wrote down the last time and delete it. It is buried in the lengthy address. Between the RC and MP.
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bere - State mandated tolerance? I have mentioned this before or perhaps only think I did. At PM Trudeau's funeral, several former PMs crossed themselves. I had no idea they were Catholic. That is how little our politicians' religion matters to us. Three quarters of them could be atheists for all I know or care.
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342, timewaits
Got it. What's confusing is that it seems with every link something different has to be deleted. Or maybe I'm just imagining that. Also, that b bit was hidden behind some new blue things I have in my address bar. This is not my fault!
Very sweet about George, formerly Terror. Do you know if George flew or sailed? The article just says "he arrived." You know, you'd think they let the Queen name her own horse. Despite its being her father's name, it now has unpleasant connotations.
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bere - For spell check go to: Tools - Options - Advanced. Then "check my spelling as I type." You could try "un-ticking" that option.
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Attention Kitchen Squad!
We appear to have a poster from Pakistan on the new thread who wants dialogue and may have taken the 'MII' person on in true innocence. I say we do not allow the new poster to be put down or shut out of a chance to voice his/her thoughts and opinions.
What say all of you?
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timewaits - I don't understand why our two countries ended up being so different since we pretty much started out the same. I would say my ancestors should have stuck with the British part, except they didn't even come over here until the early 20th century. Still, they could have gone to Canada. Maybe it seemed to much like Siberia! Yet there is the Irish part I keep forgetting about. One of my great-grandfathers was named Patrick Monahan. I don't even know if he emigrated or if my grandmother came by herself.
I'm not quite sure what AndyPost meant by "state mandated tolerance." If he thinks the supposed separation of church and state creates tolerance he is sadly mistaken.
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Bere
See! I was right about the cable not being connected.
Timewaitsfornoman
We did miss you, but you did not miss much on the other threads.
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346. At 03:18am on 05 May 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:
Attention Kitchen Squad!
We appear to have a poster from Pakistan on the new thread who wants dialogue and may have taken the 'MII' person on in true innocence. I say we do not allow the new poster to be put down or shut out of a chance to voice his/her thoughts and opinions.
What say all of you?
I was going to express the same fear, ib fat, being awake again, have been keeping a wary eye, but I'm hoping (MA having suffered more referrals than usual over the last few hours) that it might not happen. I'm keeping out of it for the time being, since I think his sick Armageddon fantasies are best left in plain sight unanswered, to be shown up for the lunacy they are.
(Mind you, I suspect a guy who can suggest Led Zep as a potential solution to the Kashmir dispute has reserves marcus might not be able to overcome. I almost brought Atomic Kitten into it at that point but thought better of it :-D )
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timewaits -
I don't have any options, advanced or otherwise, under Tools. This is the new much updated Firefox and it is not user-friendly. I can't find anything.
aqua -
I noticed that the nice Pakistani person requested MAII to respond and I thought, oh god, Nooooo.
publius -
We could tell her to go away again so I could have my scooter trip to Quebec. Oh dear, that's so selfish of me.
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bere - He flew to Amsterdam and took the ferry to England and handled it like a trooper. Not fond of the name George (for a horse). Burmese, the Queen's first RCMP horse was her favourite and she rode her for eighteen years for the Trooping of the Colour. I believe QEII had Burmese buried at Windsor Castle. RCMP Saint James is ridden by Prince Charles.
When British North America (Canada) was invaded by the Americans, they thought we would welcome them with open arms, desperate to throw off the yoke of Britain. (Shades of the Iraq invasion.) Instead they were greeted with, "Go away."
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Bere
Since we know timewaits has not been carried off by migrating polar bears, we might want to wait for the weather to warm a little more. I just ran up to the store before putting the bike away for the night and wished I would have put my chaps on over my jeans. Brrrr!
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bere - Well then you will have to wait for Heloise to give you complicated directions that I, if I am here and not slaving away, will attempt to translate.
detroit - I await the day you and bere turn up on a scooter! That'll be the day! (I don't mean the rest of the words!)
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To Britishish
I so hope that you are correct. I got some good rest this past night so I will try to stay awake longer and do my best on the new thread. Most seem to think that it is a contest for which is the best country to control nuclear weapons when, as I see it, we should destroy all nuclear arms in the whole world!
This will not happen but I always have hope.
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timewaits -
I would have thought they would have been greeted with, "Eh, what are you doing here?"
So why have Americans always thought they know what is best for everyone? Why this hubris? If you have never read Fanny Trollope's "Domestic Manners of the Americans," written around 1830, I highly recommend it. She spent months travelling around the U.S. having to listen to people tell her how wonderful the U.S. was and how terrible England was. It's particularly funny when she discourses on the American habit of spitting.
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Ref 349 british-ish
The poster from Pakistan seems to be holding her/his own against the Dean of the University of Marcus.
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351. At 03:50am on 05 May 2009, timewaitsfornoman wrote:
'When British North America (Canada) was invaded by the Americans, they thought we would welcome them with open arms, desperate to throw off the yoke of Britain. (Shades of the Iraq invasion.) Instead they were greeted with, "Go away." '
Must have confused them even more when they heard it in Italian, as well. I've often wondered why they didn't try it again.
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Ed, great photos of your 'hood. What are the yellow flowers I see in bloom? What species is that old pine? And the oaks?
And thanks for that link to Thoreau, and the stalker essay.
My favourite part of Thoreau's consideration of beans comes just after his reckoning of the costs and profits, where he writes:
"We should never stand upon ceremony with sincerity. We should never cheat and insult and banish one another by our meanness, if there were present the kernel of worth and friendliness. We should not meet thus in haste. Most men I do not meet at all, for they seem not to have time; they are busy about their beans."
Now the meaning of this seems pretty clear (how many are the bores who have no time but for the discussion of bean counting!). But then comes a wild, transcendent, elusive sentence, punctuated by many commas, a colon, a couple dashes, and a quotation of verse (whose verse? his? or?):
"We would not deal with a man thus plodding ever, leaning on a hoe or a spade as a staff between his work, not as a mushroom, but partially risen out of the earth, something more than erect, like swallows alighted and walking on the ground:--
"And as he spake, his wings would now and then
Spread, as he meant to fly, then close again--"
so that we should suspect that we might be conversing with an angel."
Here the bean counting drudge (aka mushroom?) seems to sprout wings and, perhaps reciprocating our acknowledgment of his precious "kernel of worth and friendliness," becomes a transcendent, angelic swallow.
Does it really happen like this? Sometimes, sure -- go on a journey, a quest, an adventure -- fall in love, or share a passion. Slipping away from the banalities of merely bean planting is essential for true fellowship and the full expression of the human spirit.
Then the last sentence of the paragraph, another nightmare of punctuation:
"Bread may not always nourish us; but it always does us good, it even takes stiffness out of our joints, and makes us supple and buoyant, when we knew not what ailed us, to recognize any generosity in man or Nature, to share any unmixed and heroic joy."
So man does not live by bread (or beans) alone. OK, that's old wisdom. But then comes the ambiguity of the sentence: is it the bread that always does us good, or the recognizing of generosity and sharing in joy?
Nah, it's not the bread. The semi-colon muddies the water, I think. What always nourishes the soul is the recognition of generosity and sharing in joy. Put the emphasis on "bread" and the "but" immediately following the semi colon, and it is suddenly quite clear!
Yours,
Pinko
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Timewaitsfornoman
That was fun listening to a recording made from an old phonograph. It brought back memories of dancing with my sisters in the dining room. We'd move the big dining table to the wall and dance up a storm.
They were always determined that I was not going to be one of the boys leaning against the wall at the sock hops in the school gym because I didn't know how to dance. There efforts paid off. We were usually the first ones on the dance floor to get things started; then I would split off and dance with all the girls at the hop. Never sat down all night. Great fun!
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bere -- re: your spell checker.
Try clicking "Firefox" (the first option to the right of the "apple" icon at the top of the screen).
Choose "preferences" from the drop down menu.
Choose "advanced" from the menu bar at the top of the window that will open.
It should open to the "general" tab, and you'll see "check my spelling as I type" which needs to be, uh, un-checked.
Clear as mud? This thing (Firefox) is going downhill.
Good luck, Jim. You'll need it . . .
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publius -
Okay, we can wait for warmer weather, but not so warm that the polar bears are wandering around looking for their missing polar ice sheets. I think you should move to Vermont instead of Wyoming so I can have regular rides on the scooter. Oh, I am selfish!
As for nuclear weapons, can they be destroyed? How would this be done safely?
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bere - I really don't know other than when someone is told something often enough they believe it to be true. Canadians have always kept a very low profile. Up until recently we defined ourselves as, "Not Americans." Not meaning America is a bad thing, just not us. We have started to form a national identity.
I noticed someone brought up the US high-jacking of the name, Americans. In all the comments not one that I read wondered how other "Americans" feel about this. It was; Oh no big deal, trivial, we never got around to choosing a name, etc. I wanted to jump in with; If New Zealand shared the continent of Australia would it not seem unusual that only some of the people called themselves Australians? Would it not be understandable that the others would be annoyed? But I was busy!
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Sock hops a bit before my time. I always thought that would have been a lot of fun.
And now it's past my time. Bedtime that is. Pouring rain, love falling asleep to the music of rain.
G'night all.
Zzzzzzz
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357 british - I'm not sure what you mean. When they invaded BNA? and all the Italians (soon to be Italian-Canadians) shouted, Go Away? In Italian no less! That's probably what did it.
Why they didn't try to invade BNA again? Most likely they were so confused by their first foray. Perhaps are still trying to puzzle it out.
We meet an American couple who suggested Canada join the US as we are so much alike. My response, Why don't you join Canada? We have gun control and health care. They really did not know what to make of that.
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To#359 Our dear Shaman
You have made me laugh again this day!
My dear one once told our son that if he wanted the girls to like him he should learn to dance. Our son did become a very good dancer. My daughter-in-law once confided to me that one of the first things that attracted her to my son was his love of dancing. My dear one is also a great dancer.
So, gentlemen, one and all, dance! On your feet or in your hearts. We do love you for your efforts!
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Ref 355 bere54
(First: to my Canadian friends; I hope you do not mind my outsiders view of how I see Canada through my knowledge of history and years of observations. I do love your country and the various Canadians I have known and enjoyed for forty years)
Bere
Keep in mind that Canada never left Mother Britania and did not wish to do so. There was a fear that France would be back to regain their colonies. The British legacy was not as old in most of settled Canada as it was in the Thirteen Colonies. Britain did not gain control of the interior lands until after the Queen Anne's War (French and Indian War). It was that war against the French that Parliment wanted the Thirteen Colonies to pay for through increased taxes. The Northern Colonies wanted the French defeated so they could expand westward without French interference. Control of Canada was the spoils of war. We were the rebellious children wanting our share, then angered when Mother Britania asked us to chip in for the tab of acquiring the prize.
Canada also had a very large French population and the British knew it would do them well to let the French sleep peacefully at their hearths. Much credit needs to be given to the British and French in Canada for being able to form a bond, even though they were traditional enemies. There still are differences as evidenced by the stern desire of the French descendants to maintain their language and culture; but the two peoples have worked out the major problems,and that helped them accept others who immigrated in later years.
The Crown and Parliment learned a lot from the rebellion of the North American colonies. They became more involved with their war prize and began to listen, not just administer. If they had done so with the Thirteen Colonies, we would be more like our cousins to the north.
When I was a young man and walked into a dance in a nearby town, I did so with a swagger of self confidence; or otherwise it was likely that I would be hustled out the door. It's a Yankee trait. Act strong, over-confident, and tough to disguise the fact that one is quaking in his boots. Don't go down without a fight.
We, the U.S., have always seen ourselves as the shining house upon a hill with all eyes turned toward us. That is how we convinced ourselves to be a nation, instead of a bunch of independent states. We were the great experiment in popular government. We still see ourselves as the leaders of all other popular government; much to the amusement and, far too often, the dread of our neighbors on both borders.
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Ref 365 aquarizonagal
Dancing has always been a celebration of joy in my family. My mother and her sisters would imitate the dancing in the movies and they all could dance like Ginger Rogers. My father only knew how to square dance when he met my mother. She taught him to round dance, and people would happily clear the floor to watch my parents dance.
Dad taught me to never let any woman sit all night without a dance; unless they did not want to dance. I've danced with women in wheelchairs. We, as a family, would be the first on the dance floor and the last to leave. Friends would tease me for dancing with my mother and my sisters; but it mattered not to me. We were having fun, and my mother was the best partner I have ever danced with. It's great to recall those times, now that my mother's legs are not so nimble. We can still dance in recollection.
Joy is all around us. Just give it a twirl!
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364. timewaitsfornoman:
I wish this blog had a 'search' function. I think it was Publius who came up with a link that showed Italians fought against the Americans in that war.
Being half-Italian, I was pleased . . .Whether any of them stayed and became Canadians eventually, or went home to bring up kids who fought with Garibaldi eventually, it didn't say.
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368 british - I posted the link (bookmark it). From the article; Canada has, "one of the largest Italian population centres outside Italy." There are a lot of Italians here and all the ones I know speak the language. And, being Quebec also French and English. A group of American women with Italian last names were at an event I attended. A friend immediately switched into Italian and was astounded to learn they could not speak it.
I thought at first you were talking about the second world war - in Italy!
366 detroit - You are right there are a lot of reasons behind the "Go Away" and I believe the main one was the French Canadians realized they were better off in BNA rather than the US melting pot.
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364 if they didn't get that then they didn't belong in canada.
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britishish. it seems that some lessons are learned by those that we normally assume can't.
amazing what can happen. just think of the possibilities.
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369. timewaitsfornoman:
Sorry: I couldn't find the post.
(I've given up on baiting the emperor-without-clothes. He's obviously hell-bent on destroying this blog.)
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370 happy - You are quite right. They were from, I believe Iowa. I had "issues" with a few of their ideas, which I kept to myself. Puzzled by our gun laws and colour blind they weren't (that I brought up for what good it did). Liked the health care aspect though. You would have had a fine time with them! How was your week-end?
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360, chrono -
Thanks for the Firefox info. It never occurred to me that spell check would be "advanced," but there it is. Who is Jim?
As for the "American" stuff, I've never felt a sense of nationalism or patriotism and can't really empathize with it. It's just not there in me, which is odd I suppose since I grew up an Army brat, and remember many times being on base (we never lived on base) when the flag was being lowered and having to stop short and put my hand over my heart. It never meant a thing to me. I always felt slightly ridiculous, never proud, saying the pledge in school. Maybe I'm missing a gene.
It's not that I hate my country; I've just always found the rah-rah stuff embarrassing.
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371. happylaze:
Well, when you put it that way. . . :-)
(Though maybe it was the exception that proved the rule.)
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All:
I've just noticed Justin's gentle rebuke in the new post to the pseudo-emperor and his cohorts. I fear it's so subtle, though, they'll miss it altogether. I think he's getting as fed up as we are.
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372 british - I don't bother to read it anymore. It is a waste of my time. I use the "What you don't know won't hurt you" philosophy. I believe he is enjoying himself at other's expense. They are enablers and feeding his addiction. I know some, did I mention happy?, can't resist. I believe Tosh is a suitable response. Being rude to aqua is beyond the pale.
376 - He did? So subtle it seems I missed it! Where?
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376, british -
It's so subtle I don't see it. Is it the bit about not wanting conflict? I wonder if you're reading something there that Justin didn't intend.
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british -
Just saw your post #19 on the new thread and now I see what you mean but I just don't believe that Justin is that subtle, but I would love to be wrong. I would also love it if he would come right out and say something about the problem. It is his blog after all.
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Timewaitsfornoman
Many of my fellow nationals still have that 'Manisfest Destiny' of the 1800's in their hearts and minds. It re-ignited towards Canada once again during the Cold War. We feared the size of the USSR. If Canada would have thrown away her nation and joined us, there was a feeling that we would be safer; more powerful. Many people still feel that way.
I would rather have my dear neighbor stay its own nation. I have too much fun going through Customs on either side of the border.
Bere
I am patriotic. Not that flag-waving, love-it-or-leave-it, we're-the-best, kind of nonsense so often thought to be patriotism. That's crap. I stopped saying the "Pledge of Allegence" in elementary school when I realized the Founding Fathers were loath to pledges. That led to some...interesting debates with school authorities, at a tender age (grade 5). I fought for my freedom of speech (better yet; my freedom of silence), and no longer was punished for refusing to say the pledge. That was my first activist action. My parents stood behind me. I am the type of patriot that stands for the Constitution and Bill of Rights. I am an informed voter and use my ballot to defend them. I have taken to the street to protect those Rights. That is my duty as a citizen.
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378. At 3:27pm on 05 May 2009, bere54 wrote:
376, british -
It's so subtle I don't see it. Is it the bit about not wanting conflict? I wonder if you're reading something there that Justin didn't intend.
Yes. Don't think so. I'd do it that way myself if a serious interview was deliberately misread and misused by a couple of nutters who I knew would go on the attack and destroy another thread if I was more obvious. I would, also, in fact. be extremely peeved. I'm sure that's why he stepped in with a 'funny'.
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381, british -
Okay, I bow to your better judgment. It hadn't occurred to me that he had deliberately lightened things up with the new thread, and it's such a relief, but how long before that one veers off too?
380, publius -
Want to reply to this but must run off for a bit. Later.
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To#374 Bere
I would like to share my own thoughts on this. I love America, warts and all but I was raised that way by immigrant parents. I do get choked up at various ceremonies especially those for citizenship which I have attended several times. It was astonishing to see my good macho grandson-in-law
cry like a baby at his own ceremony. He told his two year old son (born here) to "remember this day your papa became American."
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Hi all, Just a brief look in - more later perhaps. Bere (& all firefox users) If you right-click on a red-lined wurd, you'll be offered some choices, including "add to dictionary", so you can add your contractions, etc., and never see them red-lined again...
Pinko, Thoreau does reward close reading (and re-reading) - Marvellous stuff
- "AT A CERTAIN season of our life we are accustomed to consider every spot as the possible site of a house. I have thus surveyed the country on every side within a dozen miles of where I live. In imagination I have bought all the farms in succession, for all were to be bought, and I knew their price. I walked over each farmer's premises, tasted his wild apples, discoursed on husbandry with him, took his farm at his price, at any price, mortgaging it to him in my mind; even put a higher price on it- took everything but a deed of it- took his word for his deed, for I dearly love to talk- cultivated it, and him too to some extent, I trust, and withdrew when I had enjoyed it long enough, leaving him to carry it on. This experience entitled me to be regarded as a sort of real-estate broker by my friends. Wherever I sat, there I might live, and the landscape radiated from me accordingly. What is a house but a sedes, a seat?- better if a country seat. I discovered many a site for a house not likely to be soon improved, which some might have thought too far from the village, but to my eyes the village was too far from it. Well, there I might live, I said; and there I did live, for an hour, a summer and a winter life; saw how I could let the years run off, buffet the winter through, and see the spring come in. The future inhabitants of this region, wherever they may place their houses, may be sure that they have been anticipated. An afternoon sufficed to lay out the land into orchard, wood-lot, and pasture, and to decide what fine oaks or pines should be left to stand before the door, and whence each blasted tree could be seen to the best advantage; and then I let it lie, fallow, perchance, for a man is rich in proportion to the number of things which he can afford to let alone."
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Britishish
I do wonder if you are correct. The blog topic itself is a bit silly even for Justin. Perhaps he wants to see how long it will take before the posts derail to the Middle East, WWII, and personal insults.
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Ref 376 british-ish
That's what I love about the British. That oh-so-subtle tweak that keeps one on their toes. So far the thread has been fun.
Working at a stand-up desk really didn't do any good for Donald Rumsfeld. He was unable to think on his feet just as well as he was unable to think in any other position. A fine example of haphazard combining of DNA and carbon.
Be easy on me now. I often work from a stand-up desk.
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publius (and aqua) -
If your examples are patriotism then I am patriotic in that way also. I just don't believe this country is better than all others, which it seems is what patriotism has come to mean.
I stopped saying the pledge at a very young age but no one noticed because we were all saying it in unison (and I have always found chanting in unison to be awkward and embarrassing, and rather fascist - though I didn't know that when I was a kid).
My school battle came in 4th grade with Bible class (yes, in the public school system but I think before the SC decision). Once a week a Bible teacher would come in for an hour to instruct the students. I complained to my parents and they talked to the principal and it was decided that for that hour I would go to the office and assist the school secretary. All well and good. Except that I was jeered, tormented, chased and attacked on the playground. Kids would form a circle around me and chant "You don't believe in God" (which I didn't but that's bedside the point). I never answered them, but I did learn to fight. And in a dress and ankle socks no less!
My brother and sister were in the same school and elected to remain in Bible class so didn't suffer any of this. Nor can I recall my sister, two years older, coming to my defense but I think we had recess at different times. My brother is two years younger and I was the one who got into fights on his behalf about other things, so he was not my defender.
I mention this because I do think this whole business formed my feelings about this country. I had just lived in Germany for three years, and other than one neighbor and his children who tormented us for being American, people were all that is kind and friendly. I had just turned six when we moved to Germany, and had only hazy memories of this country when I started 4th grade. So my reintroduction to Americans was not pleasant.
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Ref 384 Hesiodos
Thanks for adding more Thoreau. He is always a welcome guest in the kitchen.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4ztnldQ&feature=related
just one that ends on the other topic but well. it's funny.
though he is stand up I think it is not because he is worried about his brain being crushed.
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Well Time and all. It was a good weekend.
The cat had a restricted space for a few days in the van but was OK about it and still mews at me.
Frogs and turtles sell well to those that have thought of making them it seems.
I did learn something.
that was the herst family have managed to get themselves the worst blacksmiths I have seen in years that run a so called professional shop. a pile of really unimpressive halfwitts that can't do it the real way and claim how they have to know how to do it properly to be able to fake it well.
That was funny.
Rich but no Idea it seems.
Still more frogs sold because they people were not watching the demo.
On Justin. I am strangely relieved to read one of the Matt posts(which in general I have gone by but where others comment . Though not so by I did not pay a visit while there to the
I suspect that he is subtle. and not so crazy. just too subtle. If so Kudos to the guy.
But I suspect the threads degenerating is not a good thing.
There are ways that make it very frustrating for the offenders.
I hope they put my Bill Hicks link up.
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387 bere - "So my reintroduction to Americans was not pleasant." Boy! I guess not!
In my HS History class there was an American girl (don't remember anything about her other than that) and when the teacher announced we would be covering the American Revolution for the next two classes she blurted out, "Two classes? At home we study it for two years." I remember thinking, Two years!! How much time does that leave for the rest of the world's history? Americans must know the name of every horse by the end of two years.
Canadian history class had the reputation of being boring, which it was. I never understood why we were not taught the interesting parts. Those we had to learn on our own. We certainly were not taught to sing our own praises. Nor do we have a pledge. Although Interested will probably pop-up to correct me with some obscure thing I have never heard of - so does not count!!
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time.. (#391) "Two classes?"
That's more than any HS history class in the US spends on Canadian history.
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I love Thoreau! At one time I yearned to live as he did on Walden Pond. It was a great disappointment when I actually visited Waldon Pond, to see how much it had changed from his descriptions.
One thing I love to remember about Thoreau is that when he lay dying, one of his aunts asked him if he had made his peace with god.
His reply: "I was not aware that we had quarreled."
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386.
publiusdetroit:
Actually, in this case it's really a side-effect of the (sometimes lethal) British libel laws. We learn pretty early on to be fairly oblique sometimes and write the 'lines between the lines' as it were, since an inference a reader might draw is not a libel. Though, worryingly, the Max Mosley action got worryingly close to that.) I thought Justin did it quite neatly . . ."standing up". . . "respect". . . "fear" . . ."not interested in conflict". But then, I did my time as a sub editor . . .
And that blasted emperor is cleverer than he appears. He knows perfectly well how to get around British law and the House Rules. You can't for example, libel a whole continent, or be guilty of racism when you never define 'race'. I've only managed to catch him out twice, and believe you me, I look hard.
Oops. every word had squiggly red lines there. Forgot I hadn't changed the dictionary from French back to English. that reminds me:
Bere, mentioning squiggly red lines reminded me: if you highlight a word or few in a post (or a TextEdit doc, for example), press control and click with the mouse, you will see Apple's 'spelling' contextual menu. Just mouse over "Spelling . . ." and pick the right dictionary.
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392 Gary - This does not surprise me. The opposite in fact, if you said two classes were spent on it.
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I think that the teaching of history in the US has never really been very good. I remember being much irritated as a young child that the history we were taught was all about men. I kept wondering where were the women? There must have been some around but little was said about them. I will admit that I lost interest in that subject very quickly.
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I will add that the pictures of some of these men in my history books were not very attractive so I decided that might have been why women chose to make themselves scarce.
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time (#395), the deficiency is not limited to study of Canada, of course. My recollection is that history classes in US schools cover other countries only as they relate to US history. So a little bit of Canadian history relates to the American Revolution. An exception is world history, but that area is limited to covering major topics like the Roman Empire, not the individual history of modern nations.
I recently learned a new bit of Canadian/American history. The Sisters of Providence were the first to establish hospitals in the Oregon Territory. They came to the (now American) west from Quebec. As it happens, I was born in one of their hospitals.
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394 british - As I am sure you are aware by now my mother was British/English/UKish so I am usually pretty good at these sort of things. She certainly was never that subtle. Perhaps in private conversation but that is not the case here. If Justin is sending out a signal as you suspect, he is sending it to you, happy, etc. (the ones who would perhaps recognize it) not to the offenders. Unless of course the offenders are British!
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Ref 391 timewaitsfornoman
My school must have been far different from the girl in your post. I could not say how long we spent studying the Revolution, but I know it was not two years. More like two hours.
I have spent much time studying the Revolution on my own. My family was very much a part of the revolt. I always enjoyed learning how they migrated from Long Island, NY when the British controlled it in the spring after planting, then would return in the fall to harvest their crops when the troops returned to Manhatten.
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394 I think I got a higher (no doubt) score than you man;)
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394 I think I got a higher (no doubt) score than you man;)
396 and 7
lol Aqua.
I can just see them in the room trying to come up with the syllabus.
"WOMEN!!!!!?. For Gods sake man will you stop thinking about sex for one minute."
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Ref 369 aquarizonagal
My eldest sister teaches high school history. There is a new method she employs that has most of the kids really interested. The method deals more with how ordinary people lived and how historic events changed their lives then the old, learn these dates and these people and this event. This method of social history makes things more attractive for the students to learn about the leading people and events.
The local PBS station even did a documentary on my sister's teaching methods including interviews with students to get their feedback.
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399 why not there is no truth behind the words so why take them as true.
we don't have a clue really , except a knowledge of crappie soaps and worse American cars.
I did not see the signal but do see a fed-up-ness with it all.
Yes theyit may be Brits. And as often is the case they could be those righter than right Brit imports that came for the ability to shoot a burglar.
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And all the time we get the long rants of one THEN the other.
seems fishy to me.
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398 Gary - That is very interesting. Many Canadian hospitals were established by the Nuns. As their records were meticulous much is known about the history of Quebec including details of the Battle of the Plains of Abraham. They also cared for the wounded British soldiers so recorded British history as well. Interested will correct me or expand on this should he notice, but that is alright, I have learned a lot from him. But basically, as I know it, that's the story.
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To#398 Garyahill
That is interesting. In the 1920's, some good Sisters of Saint Francis, I believe, came from Missouri to Tucson and established a hospital, St Mary which is still here today. My understanding was that their original mission was to start a school but they believed a hospital was more necessary so they worked with one of the few local doctors to provide a clinic for a frontier town with little resources.
At that time Arizona had only been a state for a few years and there were no hospitals. I was born at home so cannot claim such a part of history as you have.
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happy - Glad to hear it was a success. And you took your cat, how nice (I mean that sincerely). Maybe you could get a job with the Hearst Family? It would seem they need decent, experienced blacksmiths.
400 detroit - You will notice she was in a Canadian school when she said that, so perhaps had no idea what she was talking about. She believed it anyway. Maybe she came from Virginia! It's funny, that is all I remember about her; where she was sitting and blurting that out. c'est tout!
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399 timewaitsfornoman:
Looks as though the mods have got the message, though. Never seen so many of his rants wasted before.
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391, timewaits -
I remember it being more than two years. Every year the history lesson would start with the pilgrims and almost make it to WWI by the end of the school year. In the younger grades this was called "social studies," and occasionally we would learn about people wearing sombreros or dirndls (which I thought was odd because the only people I saw in Europe who wore dirndls were working in tourist areas). Even in high school history class we never made it past WWI because we had to start with the pilgrims again. I don't think Canada was ever mentioned. I never learned in school why there even was a Canada.
400, publius -
Obviously your education was very different from mine. I wonder if that is because I was "educated" in North Carolina from 4th grade through high school.
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A very sad funeral taking place here today. A 17-year-old boy was shot and killed by his father who mistook him for a turkey. The boy was a star in several sports and the parking lot of the church was packed not only with cars but with school buses. I think it's nice they were bringing the school kids to the funeral.
I guess it was a case where the father saw something move and shot before making sure what it was. This happens every year here, though not a man killing his own son. I don't know this family and only found out when I asked someone what was going on at the church. Now my stomach is all in knots. How is that man going to live with himself?
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404 happy - Oh sorry, I thought you agreed with british about the "subtle" message. If there is one, it went over my head. I read one sentence of a current post (which has perhaps been removed, haven't checked) and my stomach lurched. I do not understand the rating system.
And who is this "we" you mention? I know you are not talking about me - at least I hope not! Have you now joined the collective? My mother had a sign on the fridge which read: Escape while there is still time. Tells you something about my childhood! I encourage you to follow her advice. She had a lovely time living in Spain!!
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409 ummm
I had nothing to do with that.
:)
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To#403 Shaman
I would have enjoyed history taught like that because I did always wonder about what the ordinary people of the time were doing or what they thought. When I think about this I have lived through a lot of 'history' myself but only on the periphery of my everyday life. So much seems to have been marked by wars.
I remember the jubilation at the end of WWII. My oldest brother served and we were so grateful he survived and could come home. We lost my second oldest brother in Korea. My baby brother served in Vietnam. He was wounded and we had such trying times then. My mother was so devastated and her health was never the same after that. In the 'First Gulf War,' two of my nephews served. We were very anxious in those days. Then this Iraq war which took our own baby, our youngest child.
History to me is so much about war and the price that is paid by ordinary people so that despots can posture and the intolerant can spew their hate to incite brother against brother. We are all one. "The spear in my brother's heart is the spear in my own heart." Ubuntu! (not the computer operating system) but the concept of universal brother and sisterhood that should bring us together in peace.
Oh sorry, again I have gotten carried away. Without enough farm work I must not have enough to do but think which is probably not good. I will hit the post button anyway because sometimes 'history' needs to recognize those who 'only stand and wait.'
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This applies to the new thread but I don't want to post it there in case I get attacked for being a lunatic.
A few years ago, maybe '04 or '05, Justice Souter was mugged while out jogging. He fought off his muggers and was not badly injured. This struck me as very odd, because having been a jogger (or runner as we serious runners prefer to call it) for many years, I know that you carry as little as possible while running. Maybe a key stuck into a tiny pocket in your shorts, maybe an emergency dollar or two for a coffee on the way home, maybe some kind of ID in case you get hit by a car or drop dead from a heart attack. Never a wallet or a wad of money.
So were the muggers incredibly stupid and clueless to mug a jogger? Would it not have occurred to them that joggers don't carry wads of money or credit cards? Could Souter have been wearing a Rolex while jogging? I doubt it.
My theory at the time, and now, is that this was no ordinary mugging. The muggers were never caught. So does this make me a conspiracy nut? I wouldn't put anything past those lunatics who wanted desperately to stack the court with their co-lunatics. They showed their usual incompetence in their choice of the failed muggers. Fortunately. If I'm correct.
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411 next time he may not defend guns so much. most americans seem to wait till it happens to see that somethings are dangerous.
Bet you find the NRA in town soon after telling all how guns don't kill.
It is sad.
just not unexpected.
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To#411 Bere
My heart to your heart.
What a terrible tragedy for the family, the father and your community.
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time I was just saying the brits could be the ones behind the hate characters on the other post.
I would say WE to include all but the offensive poster itself.
Like I have said before I suspect that the poster itself, shall we just call it "legion" may have little awareness of it's own. but certainly no truth.
A troll
therefore none of the information of life can be taken literally. or as if it were said in honesty and openness.
Some may be true but which bits.
A bit like getting info from torture.
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411 bere - What a tragedy! The same happened here a few years ago when father mistook his son for a deer. Small consolation but I would rather be thought a deer than a turkey! Why is it always remarkable people who meet such untimely deaths? My brother-in-law was killed in a tragic accident many years ago (no guns involved). He was a very impressive person and we would not have been surprised if he suddenly leapt over a building in a single bound. My sister never fully recovered and my family was permanently scarred. It was a terrible time.
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414, aqua -
I have never lost anyone close to me in a war, but because my father was in the army and we were at Fort Bragg for a good part of the Vietnam War, I saw friends lose fathers and brothers, and some of the young GI's I met while involved with the Ft. Bragg amateur theater left for Vietnam and returned in body bags. This is why I will never understand why those who are anti-war are called anti-military and unpatriotic.
The young soldiers I knew, boys really and all draftees, were terrified. An order to Vietnam was treated like a death sentence. My father retired after 21 years and before his promotion to full colonel because he found out that with that promotion would come another year in Vietnam.
All these recent wars have been nothing but waste.
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To#415 Bere
My sister said much the same thing to me at the time but I thought she was being alarmist. I just love her but she is a huge conspiracy theorist and very paranoid at times. Shame on me, perhaps you are both correct in light of all we are learning. I would put absolutely nothing beyond the doing for this past administration, now.
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419, timewaits -
The only thing I can figure is that boy must have been crouching next to or behind a bush and all the father saw was movement, because even Vermont turkeys do not look like young men. I do hope this man loses his hunting license forever and has his guns taken away because he was irresponsible beyond belief. As for punishment - he has given himself a life sentence and there is nothing, I'm sure, any court could do to punish him further.
That's very sad about your sister's husband. These things remain with us forever. There is no such thing as closure.
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418 happy - It is all a bit confusing to me. If not American why pretend to be? The comments only reflect badly on the country they purport to love. I don't pay any attention, so could be claiming to be the King of Siam for all I know.
Did you not appreciate my Escape link? I've got you down as Number 6.
My sons went to a Prince's Trust concert in Hyde Park. It was a fabulous experience for them. And... I don't think Charles wants the job (other thread)!
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416. At 7:39pm on 05 May 2009, happylaze wrote:
It is sad.
just not unexpected.
A friend of mine in the British armed forces spent some time on secondment with the US equivalent of his service in one of the more 'gun-happy' states. He told me recently that his American compatriots there kept urging him to join them hunting.
(He had been brought up in the country in Britain, and had owned a shotgun since he had been of legal age. And, as a serving officer, even though unlikely to be required to fire a shot in anger, had to pass a very tough test with a number of weapons on a firing range every six months.)
He went as far as attending a mandatory State 'safety course' (which seemed, of course, to him somewhat ironic) and said he was so appalled by the slackness and laxity of safety precautions he refused to go out with anybody to shoot anything. Not even a clay pigeon. In fact, though he has often been in some rather dodgy places, to say the least, he has hardly ever carried the 'sidearm' he is authorised to. And trained to use. He's not alone.
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bere - My brother was at Fort Bragg pre-Vietnam in 1964/5(?), I believe for boot camp. Would that make sense? Stationed in Fairbanks Alaska, then Enterprise Alabama and from there to Vietnam. When he was discharged (without dishonour!) he lived in Texas and California before returning to Canada. As a result no one could place his accent!
I am unsure as to who Justice Souter is. Is he one of the "good guys?" If it is a conspiracy theory, I'll believe it!
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To#425 Timely One
I think he IS one of the "good guys" and it is no secret that our last administration was absolutely salivating at the prospect of loading the Supreme Court with their specially selected judges.
I have begun to wonder of Bere and my sister are correct.
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424, british -
Didn't you know? Gun and hunting safety courses are for weenies, not "real" (read: American) men, so of course they're a joke. State laws require them but they can't require the real men or the instructors to take them seriously. A real man is born knowing how to use a gun, WTF does he need a class for? He finds out only after he's killed his best friend or his own son. Killing the odd woman hanging up laundry doesn't count.
425, timewaits -
What was your brother doing in the US Army? 1964-65 was, as I recall, when they really revved up shoveling the cannon fodder into Vietnam. And they all seemed to come to Fort Bragg first. I'm surprised your brother didn't go straight to 'Nam. "Next stop, Vietnam" should have been the base theme song. My father was sent there the following year.
We were at Ft. Bragg from '63 until '70. My father retired in '69 but because we had never lived on the base nothing much changed for us. For all those years it was all Vietnam all the time, with friends and neighbors coming and going and sometimes not coming back. It wasn't until we moved right before my junior year of high school that I realized that the rest of the country wasn't living and breathing the war quite the way we were.
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423. At 8:26pm on 05 May 2009, timewaitsfornoman wrote:
"It is all a bit confusing to me. If not American why pretend to be? The comments only reflect badly on the country they purport to love. I don't pay any attention, so could be claiming to be the King of Siam for all I know."
Well, he is so good (?) at so contradictorily inciting anti-Americanism, we wondered if it was some bizarre kind of plant. But I've just been looking up Michael Savage (saw him on the new British 'Least Wanted'-- "Considered to be engaging in unacceptable behaviour by seeking to provoke others to serious criminal acts and fostering hatred which might lead to inter-community violence" -- list and wondered who on earth he was) and. . .well. . .I get an inkling now of where it all comes from. Why is utterly beyond me.
Bit dazed by it.
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bere54:
Forget about hitching rides on scooters. What you want is one of these:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8031737.stm
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To#427 Bere
We lived and breathed the Vietnam war also, with protests and everything else we could do to stop the madness. WE NEVER,EVER SPIT ON A SOLDIER. Those poor guys did what they had to do. It was Washington we wanted to stop. They had no scruples about sending our precious blood to be slaughtered and maimed in war.
If the draft had been re-instituted for Iraq, that war would have been over a long time ago! Bush and his cronies knew that. This is why our National Guard troops have been used and abused with multiple deployments and why most of our standing military only get two weeks or a month of rest then turn around for another tour. Unconscionable!
When the true history of this is written, it will be a bleak, sad and ugly picture for our country.
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bere - Then maybe you met my brother! I believe it was '64 and still pre "all Vietnam all the time" days. It was not a consideration. D did not do well in school and was lost as to what to do next and as I remember, he looked into the Canadian army but the enlistment age was 18 (he was 17) and boot camp was 6 months as opposed to 6 weeks in the US, so he hitch-hiked to Plattsburgh and enlisted. It was only when he was stationed in Enterprise, that would be '68, that Vietnam became an issue for him. He had already re-enlisted. He was over there for two years '69-'71 (?) and returned a heroin addict. The army offered him help with his addiction which he accepted. It turned out to be an immediate discharge! (but without dishonour! as if we or he cared!)
He then spent several years in the US but finally realized his best hope was to return home which he did via Vancouver, where he turned up on my aunt's doorstep seeking help. That would be '74. I do not believe he ever stepped foot in the US again. He battled, often extremely successfully for the next 19 years but succumbed in February 1993 at age 47. I was very close to him.
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I am so frustrated at my lack of technical skill. Pete Seeger had a beautiful, haunting song about the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima that I wish I could find and post as a link on the 'nuclear' thread.
Can anyone help?
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430 aqua - I regret to say, I agree with you. It was very unsettling for us to witness the American people being so manipulated. It appeared to be almost effortlessly. (Lots going on in the back rooms, I'm sure.) We were able to speak our minds with no one shouting us down or trying to make us feel unpatriotic. We did not agree with the invasion of Iraq and said so. So George Bush snubbed us, we survived.
431 - Is it called "One Blue Sky?" If so I have found it. Let me know.
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429, british -
I am totally opposed to that racing car. I mean, they are using what they call "waste" chocolate for fuel! There is no such thing as waste chocolate. Any chocolate left over from anything should be immediately sent to me, not wasted as fuel. This is criminal! Outrageous!
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To#429 Britishish
I want a car like that!
And what a great use for cooked carrots, baking them into a steering wheel for a car. How clever!
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431, timewaits -
I remember you mentioned your brother's addiction before. That is all so sad. It says much about the difference between our countries in the enlistment age and the length of boot camp. Take 'em young, show 'em how to load a gun, send 'em to war. How sick.
I would not have met your brother because I didn't start consorting with soldiers until I was 15 and joined the theater group (and of course my father was horrified because he said he "knew what those boys were like." When in fact they were no different than other boys their age.) These guys were actually assigned by the army to work with the theater, which I thought was interesting. We had actual professional actors and stage crew who'd been snatched away from their real lives.
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timewaits -
I just figured out what to delete in the address bar to get to a link on the Oprah thread! I did it all by myself! I feel so clever. For this moment anyway.
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I've just done another batch of pasties, and sampled one. I am the king of the pasty makers! I made a veggie version for my wife, so hopefully she returns home tonight to try it out (she is busy in sandpoint and stays there when she needs an early start or a late evening). If it works then one is in the mail to bere.
Happy, have you had a chance to try the new pasty shop in eugene?
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#433 Timely One
I do not know the title of the song. I only know some of the words. It was sung from the perspective of a child who died in Hiroshima. He asked for "nothing for myself, for I am dead" He asked for peace that "the children of this world can live and love and laugh and play." That is all I can remember. It was a beautiful song, very evocative and very haunting. I wish my memory was not so mushy at times. My head is so stuffed with odd bits and pieces that it is hard to sift the wheat from the chaff.
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Ref 424 british-ish
SonnyA had to take a hunter's safety course in order to get a license for hunting, as well as to be able to shoot at State of Michigan operated firing ranges. The program taught by a gamewarden with the Department of Natural Resources was very good. However, there was no actual firearms handled during the course.
I took him out later to have him practise with an unloaded firearm until I was certain he could A)recognize his target while being aware of the surroundings. B)Was able to maintain proper muzzle direction control at all times. C)Presenting his firearm with the action open and unloaded when handing it to someone else, and when crossing obstacles; checking any firearm handed to him to insure the action was open and the firearm unloaded. That was at the age of 14. We've been hunting together ever since (he's 21 now). I have never needed to correct any lapses in his safety training.
Bere
The father will pay for his failure to recognize his target for the rest of his life. Such a terrible price to learn a simple lesson. I doubt he will ever want to hunt again.
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I should clarify my 437 since I have been told over and over again what to delete. What I figured out was how to find it when it's hiding behind random blue things or is not visible in the address bar.
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british - From the other thread: "I have just found out about Senator Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III. Of whom (mercifully) I had never heard before, and wish I hadn't now."
I could not have said it better myself, although must admit was not aware of his full name. You must get a kick out of it. Unfortunately he is not funny.
Are there any politicians of a similar ilk in the UK? I am not referring to the religious part but, what word can I use?..... not sure if persona covers it. We don't. The closest we have is our current PM (not in the same league) and our Minister of the Environment who is a pit bull, appointed as the last one made a fool of herself. He shouts louder.
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Many Changing Women and Timewaitsfornoman
Sunshine patriots waving their cheap, dollar-store flags and bedecking their vehicles with magnetic plastic 'ribbons' have never stood by the grave and received the tri-fold flag; nor had the warm blood of a brother stain them as one holds him in their arms; nor lived with disfigurement day upon day; nor watched the agonizing warrior destroy their own spirit. How can they ever know there is no glory in war; only horror and pain? How can they ever know how deeply we abhor all wars?
We, the living, carry a silent pain each day. The dead are smuggly silent, because they know the answer that haunts our mortal nights.
Peace be with thee, sisters.
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publius -
Perhaps as a hunter you can explain something to me. This incident is under investigation of course, and the preliminary word, according to the paper, is that father and son were hunting in separate areas and the son, unbenownst to the father, strayed into the father's area. This sounds to me like some sort of exoneration, but the man could have no way of knowing who else might be around. It was the first day of turkey season and the woods were crawling with hunters. So the fact that he thought his son was elsewhere cannot be an excuse, can it? It could have easily been another hunter, or a hiker.
I do think the father will pay for this for the rest of his life, but if it is just glossed over as a simple accident rather than irresponsible, even criminal, hunting, what does this say to other hunters who don't bother to recognize their target? This sort of thing happens so often. Is this less egregious than drunk driving? What can be done to reduce these "accidents"?
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Now for something completely different...
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aqua - Definitely not One Blue Sky. I found this although not sung by Pete Seeger. Girl of Hiroshima/Come and Stand at Every Door.
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To# 446 Timely One
That is the song! Somewhat different but yes! Pete Seeger sang this or wrote it probably forty years ago. It was sung by him without all the musical background, just the haunting words of the child.
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445, publius
Superb. I laughed and cried (because it's all so true) at the same time. The montage was really well done.
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aqua and timewaits -
That song is so powerful that I could only listen to a minute of it; it was too strong for me, I couldn't bear it. It should be translated into all languages and the leaders of all countries should be tied to chairs and forced to listen to it.
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Ref 444 bere54
The good hunter NEVER sets off a round until the target is fully identified in the 'sight picture' and the hunter is completely aware of what is in the path of the round or shot.
That said; I will go on to say that accidents do happen even to the best hunters. You probably will not like this story. I was hunting feral cats. A full two dozen of them attacked a cow and I while I was milking. The cow spooked and kicked a full bucket of milk on the both of us. We both were literally, covered in milk and wild cats. They were starving. People were always dumping cats near farms because, "Farmers can always use a cat to keep down the mice."
While hunting the cats I locked up my dog so he would not get in the way. My sister accidently let the dog out of the barn and he charged after a cat I had in my sights. Poor Champ came into the field of fire just as I was letting off the round of shot. I tried to pull the shot, but Champ was wounded. I was devestated. I shot my dog! The cat escaped.
Fortunately. It was a minor wound. My sister helped me get the pellet out of his shoulder.
Wild turkeys are smart and very observant. Hunters wear full camoflage that must match the terrain. Hunters often remove or conceal their 'hunter orange' while sitting their watch. If the son was moving about with his 'hunter orange' concealed, I can understand the accident. The report that the father shot "at something moving" is not in his favor. A good hunter NEVER squeezes off a round at "something moving".
I could not live with myself if I killed my child while hunting. Even if it was an accident.
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445 detroit - That was very good, I had not heard it before. Very clever.
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450, publius
I'm glad your dog was okay. If the story had been otherwise I would not have wanted to hear it.
I do understand that accidents happen. I've been churned up all day thinking about that man, his wife, and their two other children. How on earth are they going to survive this? Bad enough to lose a child in an accident, but this . . .
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time/aqua/bere
I rang the peace bell (a copy of the one in Hiroshima) in Kyoto some years ago.
Not loud enough, I have often thought since.
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Ref 446 timewaitsfornoman
Thank you for the finding the song for Many Changing Woman. I agree it is a dynamic force.
The song did not need the distraction of instrumentation. The haunting image of a lonesome child pleading for the sanity of elders would have been more powerful.
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To#445 Singer
You have cheered me up again this day!
Arlo is a great favorite of mine. His songs have always been so pithy and right on the political target. I met his father once many years ago. He was also an activist in his own way and wrote some great songs. The apple did not fall far from the tree!
You always know how to bring healing to grieving hearts and I also loved the montage. Priceless!
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