What they don't want to hear
Oh, lordy: a girl in the audience asks Obama if he knows that his name in Hungarian means peach! He did not.
The question and answer session also reveals a passion for railways in the 44th president - he mentions train systems as among the things he admires in Europe. He also tells the crowd (which stays silent) that they should not think that everything is okay just because Barack Hussein Obama is president, and that respecting Muslims would not end the terrorist threat.
Big marks for saying what an audience doesn't want to hear. But other than that, I felt it was not Obama's finest hour - he was slightly tetchy with an American who asked a question (he wanted it to be locals) and staggeringly long-winded in his answers. Oddly, he seems more charming sometimes when that is not his principal aim.
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"Oh, lordy!"
Justin gets more American by the hour! Oh, lordy, lordy could be something out of Gone With The Wind (think Butterfly McQueen) or at least south of the Mason-Dixon line.
Since the Press Corps has to be on the go at 4 a.m. and is weary, do you think that Mr Obama is any more well rested? Little wonder that he's 'slightly tetchy'.
Let's hope that the President's passion for railways (railroads!) translates into more and better fixed rail systems, even if it means having to use Japanese and/or French technology.
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Love the commentary, Justin, but enough on his longwindedness. He's articulate, he tries to put things into context, he tries to engage and he's even shockingly honest - and yes, that can all get a bit longwinded. But it beats "Uh... dead, yeah... hehehe..." message-wise. So less of the style please and more of the policy content. It's what they elected him for and why we can all now deal.
"Saying what an audience doesn't want to hear" without invoking some tub-thumping baloney to sweeten the pill is revolutionary in itself. Sometimes the medium is the message.
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"Oh, lordy: a girl in the audience asks Obama if he knows that his name in Hungarian means peach! He did not."
Why is this notable? Does "peach" have some connotation of which I'm not aware?
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"...even if it means having to use Japanese and/or French technology."
More likely Canadian. The Acela Express uses engines that are of three-quarters Bombardier manufacture.
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AndyPost (#3), why so serious? What's wrong with a little light amusement now and then?
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I've been enjoying the levity of Justin's posts from the road. They're still informative despite not being dour. He's much wittier than I had realized. Perhaps it's merely giddiness from lack of proper sleep and nourishment, but I hope he keeps it up.
And I appreciate learning about the peach question because they didn't cover that on NPR. Now we've all learned how to say "peach" in Hungarian. Except . . . is it "Barack" or "Obama" that means "peach"?
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This European thought Obama was excellent and not at all 'tetchy'. He was well-recieved by the crowd with a mixture of light-heartedness, humour and serious points well-blended. The man is far more articulate than any of our current European leaders and it was refreshing to hear an American president praise Europeans, admit the failings of the Bush administration, past American arrogance and make a more than reasonable attempt to repair the damage to European/American relations caused by the Shrub. He also made it clear that Europe has things to do too and fair enough on that. Obama picks his words carefully: he has to in his job. If Obama can deliver on even 10% of what he says he wants to do he'll be making great strides to improve America's standing in the world, which will be entirely to the good.
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Hmmm. It's not quite that simple.
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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I know this is going to be controversial but "..respecting Muslims .." is getting us (ie. NATO & coalition forces) into a very tight spot because of Karzai's new proposed laws which will enable them to stop women from leaving the house without their husbands' consent. Human rights (western version) and Islam don't go and-in-hand.
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"Barack" is also Hungarian brandy. Now that's more like it! As Sarkozy is half-Hungarian, he might have some on hand. And French calvados. Take your choice.
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Well, they didn't like my link. It was to an entry in an English-Hungarian dictionary. You are on your own, then.
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#9. jr4412:
Respecting Muslims doesn't mean keeping silent about oppression of Afghan women - they're Muslims too. But it does mean not trashing their countries so gleefully as we've done for decades. Women in Iraq and Afghanistan have been among the worst victims of western action in the past decade or so. We saw broadly secular regimes there in the 1980s, so we destroyed them. We need a fresh start, and keeping in place the rancid regimes we installed there needn't be a part of it.
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9. jr4412,
Quite right that Western human rights and Islam don't mix.
Let's not forget who the Taleban is and what they are capable of:
*The destruction, with mortars and rockets, of the giant ancient statues of the Buddha and all other "unIslamic" statues and artifacts:
http://www.institute-for-afghan-studies.org/History/NATIONAL%20TREASURES/statues_destroyed/chronology.htm
*The kidnapping and killing of South Korean Christians.
*The killing of a female aid worker suspected of spreading Christianity.
*The blowing up of girls' schools in case they might get an education.
*The public beheading of men in football stadiums for not being suitably submissive to Islam.
We expect to see serious Taleban bashing from the leftie dears on this blog over these outrageous affronts to religious freedom and human rights.
But we'll wait a long time. They'll be too busy with typical leftie activities like bashing Israel - the country that has complete freedom of religion for all its citizens.
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Respecting Muslims certainly would not end the terrorist threat - since most of the terrorism is coming from the U.S. and its allies. But don't ever expect Barack Hussein Obama to discomfit his audiences by any long-winded (or short-winded) answers about that. Small marks for not tellng an audience what they don't want to hear but most need to hear. If he did, he would never have been groomed to be the puppet president in the first place. Better to stick to bland subjects like choo-choo trains. And all the while Barack Hussein Obama and his handlers can go on murdering innocent civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq and Gaza along with their terrorist henchmen in Israel and the rest of the 'free world'. Just peachy!
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12, Dave.
"Respecting Muslims doesn't mean keeping silent about oppression of Afghan women "
Do the Afghan women feel oppressed? And Idon't mean some individual woman who makes a statement. Are we impossing our culture on them? For instance, in many Moslem countries women veil when they are not required to.
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Things must be going very well when the main thing coming out of President Obama's european tour, besides the $1T in economic stimulus and the meeting with Mevdeved, involve iPODs, Michelle corresponding to the Queen holding her waist by putting her arm over Her Majesty's back, a DVD to Gordon Brown, and the fact that our President's name means peach in Hungarian. Personally, I love it and I think it is a welcome departure from the threats and fears of recent years.
A good shot of Calvados is definitely a delight, but I am partial to Jerez Solera...
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Ref 12, Dave
"Respecting Muslims doesn't mean keeping silent about oppression of Afghan women - they're Muslims too."
I can't imagine anyone proposing that women should not enjoy the same rights and freedom as men, but why do you limit your observation to Afghans when Saudis impose the same restrictions and medieval traditions on women? Why is it unacceptable in Afghanistan and perfectly acceptable in that wonderful kingdom home of most of the 19 terrorists that carried out the 9/11 attack? Should we punish the Afghans for their medieval ways, while declaring Saudi Arabia a MFN and a wonderful ally? I think a bit of consistency would give our cause and opinions a lot more balance and credibility.
Should President Obama make peach cobbler a mandatory dessert in the White House or should he expand it nation wide? Hope Justin had a nice lunch! Was it Coq au Vin or Foie Gras?
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you (davep01 #12) are correct, of course, and I made my point poorly.
when I said human rights & Islam don't go hand-in-hand, I was trying, in part, to express something along the lines of "..fresh start, and keeping in place the rancid regimes we installed..", after all, the West's agenda appears to be all about the pipeline to India and control of the opium, rather than the welfare of the Afghans.
another part is simply my lack of understanding how, in the 21st century, superstitious fundamentalism can prosper; just thinking about the consequences of believing in the Abrahmic "god" is enough to get me ranting & raving ;-( sorry, "lost my cool".
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Ref 5
"AndyPost (#3), why so serious? What's wrong with a little light amusement now and then?"
There's nothing at all wrong with a little amusement now and then. I don't get the joke, that's all. I saw the video. I thought the comment was kind of cute, really. I didn't get anything like an "oh, good Lord" reaction though. I'm simply curious as to whether calling someone a peach has some meaning that I don't understand.
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'barack', not obama, is the Hungarian for 'peach' - 'bevadol' (with an acute accent over the 'a')is Hungarian for 'impeach', should the situation ever arise.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I have no idea why my 21 was referred but it was a link to the Hungarian English Dictionary which you can find at [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
19 andy I think a "peach" means that she liked him.
He's a peach peachy keen. never thought it to be an insult.
18 jr4412
"another part is simply my lack of understanding how, in the 21st century, superstitious fundamentalism can prosper; just thinking about the consequences of believing in the Abrahmic "god" is enough to get me ranting & raving ;-( sorry, "lost my cool"."
that's OK I have a similar problem with the religious fundamentalists here in the states.
You must live in europe to not see them.
And lucky you.
If you are in the states then look around. there are plenty of very religious types that are in their hearts the same as the taliban, they are just scared because they know that at this stage in American history they will be history if they are the ones that start up in arms.
if they keep quiet for a while maybe we can forget them.
They will be back. unfortunately.
Just look at the gorilla from wasilla .
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So far, the predominant themes resonating from coverage of this president
are trains, planes, and automobiles. Is John Candy in the script somewhere?
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happylaze #24.
"You must live in europe to not see them." -- yes, Europe, unfortunately "on the fringe", ie. UK, and we do see them here too.
intolerant, selfish, self-righteous, spitting image of their "god"; we cannot even dare to criticise the fundamentalists for mutilating ("circumcising", sorry, safer to use the euphemism) their baby children.
thanks, and good fortune to you.
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Re. 9, 12, 13, etc.
Americans love European charm and each country's unique identity.
As an American, I fear those identies are going by the wayside. Christianity is a religion of peace, tolerance, forgiveness. Islam presents with great fortitude, stridently pushing its agenda, intolerant of criticism.
24 (I think that is the correct number)of UN member nations voted to make it against the law to criticize Islam. Nobody cares about ctiticism of Christianity. Christians would never think to pass a law to make it a crime to do so.
It is punishable by death in Most Islamic countries to convert to another faith. Unthinkable to Christians.
Christianity had the same fervent intolerance several centuries ago. It was modified by time, experience, and the civilizing effect of democracies with an emerging respect of individual rights. Most democracies are of the philosophy that an individual's religious beliefs are between himself and god and none of the government's business.
Islam literally has no patience with such foolishness. Isam or death, that sort of thing.
I fear the great European societies are being "steamrollered," so to speak, by the onslaught of ferver from the continent to the south. The influx of ardent muslims are overwhelming you and erasing your unique identies.
I doubt you will survive and I have absolutely no clue as to what might be done in the way of preservation.
Sorry to be so gloomy. Just being honest.
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Can Obama disgraceful comments about the previous administration be any lower?
Stop humbeling this country.
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26 jr
Believe it or not, but medical opinion is starting to sway again on the question of (male)circumcision. They were pretty neutral on the subject, but just recently some significant studies in Africa found c.30% reduction in infection w. HIV among the circumcised. And since practitioners in the West now routinely use local anesthetic, it is no longer traumatic.
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Re: the President's speech: I just wish we had politicians willing to tell the domestic public what they don't want to hear: to get through this and to make sure this doesn't happen again, we have to change the way we live, the way we do business... I disagree w. the politicos in DC who say we have to spend, spend, spend to get out of the crisis (much the same message as Obama's antecedent.)
Unless we start learning to cut back, be thrifty, and save, we might do our economic duty and find nothing to come home to.
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28 -
Humbling this country? It seems that most of Europe, and much of the rest of the world, agrees with Obama about the previous administration. Much of the jubilation that greets Obama is probably due, as much as anything, to great relief that Bush is gone. Haven't you figured that out yet? Europeans and Muslims (who make up a large part of the world) made it plain over the whole ghastly eight years that they did not like Bush. People are thrilled that he's gone. Except you, of course. Must be lonely.
27 -
What do you suppose would happen if a political leader (or anyone else for that matter) here in the U.S. publicly and stridently criticized Christianity? Would the reaction be peace, tolerance, forgiveness? Not from what I've seen of our home-grown Christians.
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27, ruralhills, while I believe that you are correct in your current
assessment of Islam, it was not always so. At one time, the Islamic
world held the torch of tolerance and cultural diversity.
The Muslims had their golden age for a few hundred years after Mohammed.
They were, by any measure, far more tolerant and vibrant than their
Christian neighbors. They were also more tolerant than they are today.
This Wikipedia article provides a synopsis of the period.
We should be humbled by the decline of older civilizations. After all,
how long is our golden age of tolerance going to last?
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30, Via-Media -
I tend to agree with you. All this spending talk is making me exceedingly nervous. It reminds me of Dick Cheney saying a few years ago that Americans should never have to change their lifestyle, or some such silly thing.
I already know how to be thrifty. It's really not that bad, not having tons of stuff you don't need.
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28 - "Can Obama [SIC] disgraceful comments about the previous administration be any lower?
Stop humbeling [SIC] this country."
What are you talking about?
Even if there was any comments by Obama (I haven't seen any, you provide no reference) he is talking to Europe, he knows what the audience thinks of GWB so it isn't a bad idea to agree with what we thought while he is trying to get extra support for your troops in Afghanistan.
Do you want him to come and tell us all how Dubya wasn't all that bad (i.e. lie) and aggravate the rest of the world, or do you want to start a healing process to promote unity and get help with your agenda??
Besides, what criticism could be too low of GWB?!
Carry on clutching at those empty criticisms, you must hate how popular he is!
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Via-Media #29.
if you're of age and you choose to be circumcised - fine, but they subject babies who have no say in it all. to my mind, that's abusing children.
also, the UN (WHO) declared female circumcision a crime but did not even discuss the male version, the same for UK law; go figure..
"..just recently some significant studies.." - yes, this was headline news here too; it would be interesting to find out about the affiliations of the research teams, their sponsors, etc. that is not to say that 30% fewer should be ignored, but, still, I'd like to know more background.
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27. At 00:41am on 04 Apr 2009, ruralhills wrote:
"I fear the great European societies are being "steamrollered," so to speak, by the onslaught of ferver from the continent to the south. The influx of ardent muslims are overwhelming you and erasing your unique identies."
Well, some of my more distant ancestors probably said that about Romans, Goths, Vandals, Vikings and Normans (depending on whether they were in England or Italy at the time ) but there we are.
Oh -- forgot: my mum's ancestors were Vikings . . .maybe they worried about those heathen Saxons and Jutes or whatever.
Why worry? The idea of a single population or an ethnic group forming a "unique nation" is historically pretty recent and probably won't last. I expect about 64 million descendants of Vikings, Saxons, Normans etc. etc. (not forgetting West Europeans, Eastern Europeans, Arabs, Africans, Asians and Chinese) as we are in the UK at the moment, will survive. I don't think Fox will be showing stonings and beheadings from Wembley Stadium in the next century.
(Or if they do, and it does occur to me they might, I'd look very closely: you should be able to see the joins . . .Anyway, I like the new minaret on St. Paul's Cathedral. Have you seen that? Adds something to the London skyline, I think.)
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On his alleged 'tetchyness' towards the American asking the question, I only saw the short clip on BBC but the two Americans it showed were met with good humour by Obama, any anger surely feigned for effect?
Anyone see what Justin saw?
He didn't want people thinking he'd placed Americans to ask easy questions, just when he thought he'd get away from teleprompter criticism for one appearance at least!
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ruralhills #27.
I think you're saying that Islam has not yet the equivalent of the "New Testament". true, but I don't think that christianity "..is a religion of peace, tolerance, forgiveness.", I tend to agree with #24.
IMhO - all three Abrahamic religions are as bad as each other, and, because this debate is moderated, cannot even put into words what I really think should happen to the adherents.
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29. At 01:00am on 04 Apr 2009, Via-Media wrote:
26 jr
Believe it or not, but medical opinion is starting to sway again on the question of (male)circumcision. They were pretty neutral on the subject, but just recently some significant studies in Africa found c.30% reduction in infection w. HIV among the circumcised. And since practitioners in the West now routinely use local anesthetic, it is no longer traumatic.
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strange I tried to bring that very topic up a few days ago .
My question to the president on that blog.
I asked why is America so Obsessed with it.
The same question was asked by British scientists it seems.
It is a cultural difference that is most marked but untalked about.
Why Are americans so into it.
I tell you what mums leave it alone.
If there is no pre existing medical or religious reason don't let the Doc fool you.LEAVE IT ALONE.
If it ain't broke why break it more.
Sorry religion is no excuse for this either. talk of cruel and unusual punishment . Do all you godly types (both Muslim and Jewish) think that God was against them.
"here I have created all that is my world . it looks great . the flamingos add just the right touch. But that .. that.. that thing has to go. "
I'm being very careful about how I put it it is a delicate subject.
The BBC did a report about that study a few days ago I wonder if the mods will let me link it to show that this is not as one could expect a clear Cut decision on the medical superiority.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7960798.stm
I was amused to hear from an American catholic friend that most Catholics are "cut".
It is an american thing.
Of course if it is the cultural norm . no problems. I have no problem with unnecessary surgery.
;)
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35 jr
I'm neither pro or con on the issue of circumcision, just relating the facts. But female circumcision is abhorrent because 1.) it involves vastly more pain and psychological scarring, by at least several orders of magnitude, 2.) it involves far more than a bit of skin tissue, 3.) is to my knowledge is performed on fully conscious near-adult females, and 4.) it is done as a form of social/gender control. I know of no research that demonstrates psychological harm to male victims of infant circumcision.
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37 Swamilicious
Don't you realize, this was merely part of his orchestrated, fiendishly diabolical plot to take over the world, (cue scary music) Bu-wah-hah-hah-hah! (OK, evil mad scientist laughs don't transcribe well...)
Much as I've enjoyed Justin's insider look, I would still like some more weighty topics for consideration.
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when an investment company says "stay on the line" Do you all think that is a little worrying?
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If the topic above is accurate in saying that Obama refered to himself in the third person, that is an unpleasant warning sign. Such people not only place a wall between themselves and others, but also see themselves as exalted in some way. It is somewhat like the royal "we."
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36 british-ish
Genetically speaking, ethnic mixing is probably for the best. Too much isolation breeds genetic weakness. Witness the Amish, who were incorrectly rumored at my college (in a heavily Amish area) to recruit frat boys to make house calls, because of too much inbreeding.
We don't have to lose our cultures to be multicultural. And the modern method, by peaceful migration and eventual assimilation, sure beats the heck (no pun intended) out of the battleaxe and warhammer methods of our esteemed ancestors.
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People who refer to themselves in the third-person singular make me cringe.
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Andy, way back there at no. 3 - I'm guessing JW simply found it funny that BHO was told his name means something slightly incongruous (not as incongruous as Helmut 'cabbage' Kohl, however). 'Peach' does, of course, mean an attractive woman (there's a very amusing usage of it by Hugh Laurie in Blackadder Goes Forth); I also remember, some years ago when Ruby Wax made a programme about Hugh Hefner's Playboy mansion, a former model (American) used it to mean something very rude indeed (the OED is too coy to list this definition, alas; the Urban Dictionary has no such qualms, if you want to look it up).
Justin is clearly far too urbane to have meant anything rude by it..
America - it's good to have you back.
Two things: 1. Obama is doing great, but he was stiff as a board at the press conference with Gordy. I like the guy, but I'm not sure I buy this 'golden eloquence' malarkey.
2. BHO is right to press Nato members to step up to the plate - they decreed 9/11 to be an attack on them all, and they have to make good on that. BUT it takes a lot for politicians to ask that people assent to their young going to die for something - the US was attacked, terribly, and so Americans are more willing to grant it. Before that, however, the US had spent almost 30 years steadfastly opposed to young Americans dying overseas - if they cast their minds back eight years, some US critics might find they have more in common with the Euro peaceniks than they thought.
The objectives in Afghanistan just aren't clear or cogent enough to make the Europeans accept war - thousands have to die, a nation has to be destroyed and rebuilt, because of who the Taleban consorted with? That's a big ask. Or maybe this is about nation-building instead? Or Pakistan? What is the mission? And if we have to ask, why are people dying for it?
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30 bere
We're busy paying off our debts, so thriftiness is natural for us, too. It gets to be a habit after a while. But I can't give up my addiction to books (800 and counting) and music, though I suppose I could start hitting garage sales for these.
Unpatriotic, I suppose.
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47, Via-Media -
I also have an addiction to books. It is my one true weakness (well, except for chocolate). Because I'm frugal and don't much care for modern literature, I buy mostly from secondhand bookshops. But thriftiness comes naturally to me because I really hate shopping (except in bookshops). Is this unpatriotic? Well, too bad, I don't care. The economy is not going to be stimulated by me, except when I go out to have a coffee.
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sorry, I realise this is now totally off-topic, but:
40. At 02:09am on 04 Apr 2009, Via-Media wrote:
"I'm neither pro or con on the issue of circumcision, just relating the facts. But female circumcision is abhorrent because 1.) it involves vastly more pain and psychological scarring, by at least several orders of magnitude, 2.) it involves far more than a bit of skin tissue, 3.) is to my knowledge is performed on fully conscious near-adult females, and 4.) it is done as a form of social/gender control. I know of no research that demonstrates psychological harm to male victims of infant circumcision."
I do not disagree with you in that I believe (4) is the salient point, and because of (3) (1) is inevitable. as to (2), the consequence of foreskin removal - as I understand it - is permanent desensitisation of the penis, ie. "..involves far more than a bit of skin tissue."
I do not know of "..research that demonstrates psychological harm to male victims.." either. however, given that so much gratuitous, callous violence is part of every day live in the nations where the religious followers of the Abrahamic "god" rule, I wonder whether cutting the foreskin doesn't lead to the loss of something (their "soul" perhaps, for lack of a better word).
as I said, I think (4) is the important point, and I think it is particulary sinister because it is done under the guise of religion.
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re: 31
No comparison. People may protest -- shrill, as it may be - but this government (US)will never execute a person for critizing christianity or converting to another religion. Freedom of speech, holler all you want but in the final analysis, religious fervor in America is all noise. In muslim countries, it's government policy backed up by law, enforced by such extreme measures as execution.
36.
Man, if you don't care, all I can say is, if the majority of your continental contemporaries feel the same, it's over. Just a matter of time.
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38. At 01:48am on 04 Apr 2009, jr4412 wrote:
ruralhills #27.
I think you're saying that Islam has not yet the equivalent of the "New Testament".
Well, it wouldn't. Won't, either. The Prophet Mohammed was born after Christ. (Who Islam recognises as a prophet and teacher by the way.) And the New Testament. I don't think any more prophets, or testaments, are anticipated. At least I hope not. They've caused enough trouble.
As for "peace, tolerance and forgiveness" I'd go for Buddhism, easily. (Except for the generals of Myanmar and Sri Lanka, of course. There's always someone who's going to spoil things.) And it's been around a lot longer.
(Actually, now I think about it, forget the 'forgiveness' bit. Buddhists don't blame anybody for anything, so there can be nothing to forgive, obviously. Now that is a very helpful concept for people living together on this planet.)
Don't people get to find this sort of thing out at school in the USA?
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While Europeans are glad to hear that Bush is out of there, they are not particularly fond of NATO- especially with the US's expansion of it and trying to drag Europe into the US's fights.
Read this column from a professor at the Sorbonne:
http://original.antiwar.com/husson/2009/04/02/sarkozy-merkel-frozen-in-the-cold-war/
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re: 15 allmymarbles and 17 saintDominick
I spoke only of Afghanistan (and Iraq) because (a) I was responding to a point about Afghanistan's new law and (b) I was referring specifically to the negative impact of western policy. We made these present regimes: they aren't home-grown, and couldn't survive without foreign support. I don't like foreign-imposed regime change, but if we're going to do regime change we might at least do it in the interests of all - that was my point. That doesn't stop women going veiled if that's what they prefer. And I'd be only too happy to see the back of the Saudi dynasty that's done so much to pervert religious and political life across the Muslim world.
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40, Via-Media.
"But female circumcision is abhorrent because 1.) it involves vastly more pain and psychological scarring, by at least several orders of magnitude, 2.) it involves far more than a bit of skin tissue, 3.) is to my knowledge is performed on fully conscious near-adult females, and 4.) it is done as a form of social/gender control."
If it is gender control, then the females are complicit. At least that is true in the Ivory Coast where female circumcision is a rite of passage. All mutilation is peculiar and that is also true of male circumcision. We defend that because it is familiar to us and there is always the excuse that it is a health issue. Before people of the West go blathering about female circumcision, it would bode well for them to understand the culture that practices it. I was talking to one man who had a young daughter, barely precircumcision age, and I asked him if he would prevent it. He laughed and said that if he tried to then the woman would take her away and perform it anyway.
Is it moral? Is male circumcision moral? Is piercing your nipple moral? Is pornagraphy moral? Is drugging your children so that they will do better in school moral? Look to your own weird (amd wode;u acce[ted) customs before moralizing about those of cultures you know nothing about. Personally, I am against all of it. But what other cultures do is none of my business. And none of yours either. Clean up your own house.
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Typos in my last entry. The parenthetical phrase in the fourth line from the bottom should read "(and widely accepted)."
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50. At 04:00am on 04 Apr 2009, ruralhills wrote:
"36.
Man, if you don't care, all I can say is, if the majority of your continental contemporaries feel the same, it's over. Just a matter of time."
Why? And, if you're right, what would your solution be, exactly?
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49. At 03:39am on 04 Apr 2009, jr4412:
Over the millennia philosophers and priests have puzzled over where the soul might be located, but this one is new to me, I must say. Presumably, then, women do not have souls?
(Now where have I heard that before?)
Fortunately, if that turns out to be right, I've got my soul still, so that's OK then.
(This blog's gone off on odd directions before, but this one is definitely novel. Mods permitting, of course. )
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49, jr.
"I wonder whether cutting the foreskin doesn't lead to the loss of something (their "soul" perhaps, for lack of a better word)."
I presume you still have your soul. Now I know more than I needed to.
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52, ish-ish.
"his blog's gone off on odd directions before, but this one is definitely novel."
That's OK. It gives us a respite from politics. As to 49, jr., since I do not have a soul, I guess he and I can never be soulmates. Phew!!!
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british-ish #51. "I'd go for Buddhism, easily." good choice from among the available socially stratified organisations (cannot say religion, they say it's a philosophy).
also, the "New Testament" bit meant to illustrate move from belligerent "eye for an eye" to the more controllable "turn the other cheek".
#57. oh dear, logic. "..women do not have souls?" is not what I tried to say [hangs head in shame]. still, I stand by my point that violence seems most prevalent where religious types (Christian, Jewish, Muslim) exert power.
enjoyed both posts though; also liked allmymarbles #54 - would that I could be as relaxed about things.
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58. allmymarbles
Next time one of my friends tells me "Ah, you've got no soul" . . .
I can see I'll either giggle helplessly or get arrested :-)
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60, jr.
"...allmymarbles #54 - would that I could be as relaxed about things."
It's not a question of being relaxed. What I was trying to do was have the blogger try to see our culture with the eyes of a vastly different people. We practice our own mutilations which we seem to think are OK (such as women having their bodies cut open to implant false breasts). What about our obscene sexual parades? What about magazines portraying the abuse of women? How do you think some foreign cultures view these things? Should they try to impose their morality on us? One thing is for sure. They would surely have their work cut out for them.
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62 marbles
You make a valid point about the problems with our own popular culture, and the hypocrisy of our criticising other cultural practises. For the biblically-minded, we should remove the log from our own eye before criticising the speck in another's.
However, this is fallacious, as in the west we do not force mutilation on children. And forced circumcision is not comparable to breast implants or pornagraphy.
We should in fact both criticise our own culture, and protect children from the abuse of genital mutilation.
For my money, any legal adult who wishes to be circumcised can pay a doctor, but to force it on children is criminal.
Or, again for the biblically-minded, if god made us in his image, why does he then require the removal of some extraneous skin?
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61 british-ish
I don't know about where the soul resides (funny if it did live there though!.
But when I was young you could tell a boy's 17th century politics from whether he was a "roundhead" or a "cavalier".
As long as they don't do a Charles I and chop the head off.....
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63, RomeStu.
"...in the west we do not force mutilation on children."
You use the word "force" as though the entire pubescent female population resisted it. In the areas I am familiar with, it was a rite, a coming of age. These were not children, but girls who would in the near future be married. Girls are physically eligable for marriage at the menarch. Early marriage was not uncommon here not too long ago. Edgar Allan Poe's Virginia was 13 when he married her. (Juliet in "Romeo and Juliet" was assumed to be about 14.) There were early marriages in the South in this country in the 20th century. And as for us not "forcing" mutilation, what would you call a bris? Isn't that the forcing of male circumcision on an infant boy?
Neither, to my mind, is an admirable practice, but you have to see them in perspective. We cannot condemn the practices of other cultures without condemning our own. Let's face it. We are ignorant, arrogant, near-sighted, bigotted bullies.
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Hello all, it's been awhile since my last post.
First, I have to say I am stunned. I read about how the international press gave Obama, my President, a standing ovation! Wow! I didn't think that kind of reaction was possible these days.
Second, I have to say that I am impressed that so many countries agreed to be more open about their banking records to prevent tax havens. A step like this actually acknowledges that the world economy is hopelessly intertwined internationally. I never thought Europe would agree to something like that. (The following is not meant to be offensive) Historically, Europe especially has been very competitive and into tariffs to protect their businesses.
My jaw dropped. Kudos to ALL OF YOU out there. It is a difficult thing to surprise me these days, as I tend to pay close watch. I rarely hand out compliments, but I am impressed with what happened at the G20 summit. Wow. Just wow. Maybe there's some hope for humanity yet!
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Re Post 25. by gunsandreligion
"So far, the predominant themes resonating from coverage of this president are trains, planes, and automobiles. Is John Candy in the script somewhere?"
Let's hope that there is no sign of Steve Martin (unless the genius from the jerk and LA Story has returned) as I don't expect pink panther 2 will have done much for franco-us relations. Of course it could be that BHO is really "the man with two brains" - which he might need to be do do the job he has before him.
I thought the town hall meeting was good. It was a brave attempt to meet the people and for someone in Obama's postion it really showed him making the effort. It would be difficult to imagine his any of his post war predessesors (with the exceptions of JFK and BJC) doing the same thing. I also noticed that when Barak (I think we can be on first name terms) entered No 10 Downing St he shook the hand of the man holding the front door open - a nice human touch.
You're all doing very well !!
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65. At 07:44am on 04 Apr 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
"We cannot condemn the practices of other cultures without condemning our own. Let's face it. We are ignorant, arrogant, near-sighted, bigotted bullies."
All kinds of cultural and societal practices have been abandoned over history by consensus and persuasion. Like the exposure of twins. Cannibalism. That process continues. What societies cannot do with moral force is advocate the abandonment of a practice they themselves pursue. But to advocate abolition is not bullying; nor is it bigotry.
But to defend an inhuman or cruel practice because it is a part of a culture is merely misplaced sentimentality. Otherwise, holidaymakers in some parts of the Pacific or would be eaten on arrival, wouldn't they? And heads would be hunted in Borneo. (I have read that relatively recently some of the most elderly Dayaks still expressed some regret that the British had outlawed the practice, but they had come to accept it was a reasonably good idea.)
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45. allmymarbles wrote:
People who refer to themselves in the third-person singular make me cringe.
Perhaps because you pay no attention to the possibility that there can be various motives behind the expression. I don't see it as an example of egoism. I'm not a great fan of Obama, but I think he used the third person in a self-effacing way in this instance.
No need to "cringe" over that.
65. At 07:44am on 04 Apr 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
It seems you and others on this thread genuinely don't understand the difference between male and female circumcision (more realistically known as Female Genital Mutilation) otherwise you would never compare the two. Female circumcision entails the removal of the entire clitoris, often together with surrounding tissue. In some "cultures" little girls are held down screaming in pain while this "operation" is performed, naturally without an anesthetic. The result is a life sentence of psychological and physical distress and sex in these cases is a painful, miserable and even dangerous experience.
Here's some info on that courageous women, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who herself suffered FGM as a child:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=NAh&q=Ayaan+Hirsi+Ali+suffered+FGM&btnG=Search
Moral equivalence is a real aberration. You should try to avoid it.
31. At 01:11am on 04 Apr 2009, bere54 wrote:
I see you have also succumbed to moral equivalence. There is no comparison between Islam and modern Christianity. I haven't noticed Christians imposing the death sentence on anyone who converts to Islam or rampaging through Muslim areas and destroying mosques. And I haven't heard Christian preachers describing Muslims as the sons and daughters of monkeys and pigs or requiring Muslims to live in obedient subservience to Christians.
Try comparing like with like.
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38. jr4412 wrote:
"IMhO - all three Abrahamic religions are as bad as each other, and, because this debate is moderated, cannot even put into words what I really think should happen to the adherents."
Right, that's your "humble" opinion. You must be joking. But don't hold back. The moderators are tolerant enough to allow some pretty foul comments through here and I like to know the kind of people I'm dealing with in these debates.
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ref #31
Fine Bush is gone Europe is happy.
But considering the leadership Bush showed on the war on Terror he should be thanked not disparaged.
The fact that a percentage of Europeans and Moslems refuse to acknowledge the danger of Islamic facism the biggest threat to major nuclear or biolgical genocide does not make it go away.
But Obama will throw any one under the bus, weather it's friend or foe.
I am ashamed of Barack Obama!
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68. british-ish wrote:
Though I disagreee with you on other issues, your comment no. 68 should be required reading for the moral equivalence brigade.
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Mister Webb (I have had trouble it appears through addressing people on the Beeb by their first monickers) - is it all "style"?
Standing and talking to people - is just that. Long winded answers? I agree but so what? We seem to need to - my pet hate - Missouri everything. "Show me" the substance in all things. Utter tosh.
I do not want to see President Obama and his wife necessarily and the minutiae of having him compared to President Sarkozy and his wife. On fashion? Dah!
Total waste of time. We are serious people here and knowing his name is "peach" in whatever language is Ok but where are we on the important stuff?
I felt for President Obama when he demanded two days ago something other than an USA voice questioning him - here in Europe. Those pesky USA citizens get everywhere don't they? But that is another story.
"I'm the foreigner" he corrected himself and that is fine. But I groaned as I realised it would be picked over like a chicken bone for import.
Forget the chicken. "Where's the beef?"
Bull "Rushes" come to mind.
'Ich bin ein Berliner'! Jelly do'nut? Say what?
lol
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65 allmymarbles wrote to my post 63:
"You use the word "force" as though the entire pubescent female population resisted it. In the areas I am familiar with, it was a rite, a coming of age. These were not children, but girls who would in the near future be married."
The fact that the girls (and adult women) do not resist it does not make it unacceptable for me to condemn it. It may be rite of passage, but so was eating your first missionary in the South Pacific.
See british-ish @68 for the "cannibalism as culture" argument.
I believe it is the poor level of education and freedom of choice for women in many muslim societies that leads to this lack of resistance. What would be the punishment for resistance? Possibly worse than the circumcision.
You continue
"And as for us not "forcing" mutilation, what would you call a bris? Isn't that the forcing of male circumcision on an infant boy?"
You are quite correct - it is mutilation and I condemn it. However we do not live in a predominantly Jewish society and there are many secular Jews who possibly do not circumcise their sons (I don't have any stats)
And you continue...
"Neither, to my mind, is an admirable practice, but you have to see them in perspective. We cannot condemn the practices of other cultures without condemning our own."
Why do we have to see them in perspective. We should equally criticise those practises in our own culture and in other cultures.
"Let's face it. We are ignorant, arrogant, near-sighted, bigotted bullies."
No, not us, but those who would mutilate the genitals of children in the name of their culture.
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How in heaven's name did we get from NATO to female circumcision in one thread?!? And on Justin's blog, too, which started with "Oh Lordy" Butterfly McQueen? Did I just step into some weird parallel universe? Did Conficker hijack my PC after all?
#7 wafflycat: THANK YOU! I am delighted to hear from a European witness to the Obama town hall meeting. You make it sound like a worthwhile use of the President's time. Not everyone has to love what he's saying, as long as they give him a serious listen -- which was my impression from the video.
All the rest of the usual suspects: can we save the screeds for somewhere better suited for it? I mean really: I'm surprised you haven't been moderated right out of here already.
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70. At 10:01am on 04 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
38. jr4412 wrote:
"IMhO - all three Abrahamic religions are as bad as each other, and, because this debate is moderated, cannot even put into words what I really think should happen to the adherents."
Right, that's your "humble" opinion. You must be joking. But don't hold back. The moderators are tolerant enough to allow some pretty foul comments through here and I like to know the kind of people I'm dealing with in these debates."
But you y usually howl about free speech
And your views onthe Palestinians are pretty much as foul a thing as can be read anywhere outside Der Sturmer.
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72. At 11:59am on 04 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
68. british-ish wrote:
Though I disagreee with you on other issues, your comment no. 68 should be required reading for the moral equivalence brigade."
Including those like yourself who try to justify teh killingof babies and schoolchildren.
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74. At 1:11pm on 04 Apr 2009, RomeStu wrote:
65 allmymarbles wrote to my post 63:
"You use the word "force" as though the entire pubescent female population resisted it. In the areas I am familiar with, it was a rite, a coming of age. These were not children, but girls who would in the near future be married."
The fact that the girls (and adult women) do not resist it does not make it unacceptable for me to condemn it. It may be rite of passage, but so was eating your first missionary in the South Pacific.
See british-ish @68 for the "cannibalism as culture" argument."
That is a deeply rascist and offensive comment.
Like to read what "civilised" white sailors did toP olynesian women?
Forgotten how civilised and christian white westerners treated the Tasmanian Koories?
Do you know how much land was stolen by whte missionaries? How they urged the destruction of all native customs they disliked, including, allegedly sexual positions?
"I believe it is the poor level of education and freedom of choice for women in many muslim societies that leads to this lack of resistance. What would be the punishment for resistance? Possibly worse than the circumcision."
I do not presume to speak for "moslem women" or christian women or disabled women, there are rather a lot of them.
Circumsion may strike you as barbaric but you don't seem to have a problem with the circumsion of babies in Israel, New York or Melbourne.
And there is no lack of education there, and no grinding poverty either.
"You are quite correct - it is mutilation and I condemn it. However we do not live in a predominantly Jewish society and there are many secular Jews who possibly do not circumcise their sons (I don't have any stats)2
Hardly the point though is it. Circumsion occurs quite regualrly in our society, as does child pornography and, apparently, incest.
"Neither, to my mind, is an admirable practice, but you have to see them in perspective. We cannot condemn the practices of other cultures without condemning our own."
Why do we have to see them in perspective. We should equally criticise those practises in our own culture and in other cultures."
We should but we dont. Your comment about eating missionaries is a farily typical response.
Eating white missionary bad - wiping out whole native population ok?
"Let's face it. We are ignorant, arrogant, near-sighted, bigotted bullies."
No, not us, but those who would mutilate the genitals of children in the name of their culture."
And thsast incoporates a whole lot of us.
Why not ease the hysteria over genitals and try to make sure these children get decent food and medical care?
That would save far more lives to far more pupose. Abolishing circumsion and then looking on as whole communities starve or choke due to bad water sounds like a weird priority.
But of course simply feeding people does not get you the headlines. Nothing like Sex to get the new imperialists moving.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
There seems to be a misunderstanding between religion and fanatics who use religous to justify persecution and intolerance.
The Inquisition The Slavc Pograns and other intolerances have been widely condemned.
But what the West finds frustrating are moslem leaders(political and religous)refusal to condemn abuses by their fellow moslems.
The recent unified support of the Sudanese leader, the justification of 4 cowardly Pakistanain men for whipping a woman because she refused to marry a tribal leader their unwillingness to denouce Hezbollah and Hamas terrorism.
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I'm waiting for the email explanation as to why my post was removed. This is so typical of the mainstream media who will not report the world as it is but rather as they want the public to perceive reality to fullfil their paymaster's agendas!
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81. Newsreelsneil,
Your post ain't been removed. It's been referred. It may be removed but it may still be reinstated. Actually the moderators here are quite tolerant.
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40 surely there should be a reason to promote this practice to people who have no religious reason. I personally think "How would they Know"
The reason for the culturally abnormal number of male circumcisions in America , related in no way to the religion is because people are being coerst with as you put it "facts"
where if this were any other debate those same facts reported in one study a study with what one can assume has a little bit of a bias on it.
Religion leading science just like creationism.
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We don't have to lose our cultures to be multicultural.
which is exactly why I dislike america's promotion of circumcision to catholic mums with scare tactics.
Like Stu said (and I wish they had printed my question to Obama at that post) roundhead or cavalier makes no difference to me but that Catholics now think it part of their religion because the medical profession in the states has pushed it on people.
Any guesses why?
I can see no reason for it.
65 Marbles as normal when it comes to these topics you have the most reasonable view.
Western culture is so full of accusing others that I find it sad.
This circumcision thing.
When did a baby last say "cut this off"
Here I will say it.
It is a touchy subject for some. with it most men I have known are very happy with it.Here in the states some have been made to feel bad that they are complete because some women have been "hoodwinked"into believing it is "unhygienic" etc.
I will add because you can't add later , that I have been told this by americans when having a frank discussion on this once.
This promotion has been at the behest of which group of people and why? The huge Muslim doctors association? I think not.
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truely the biggest fibber on the blog
"And I haven't heard Christian preachers describing Muslims as the sons and daughters of monkeys and pigs or requiring Muslims to live in obedient subservience to Christians."
where have you been for the last 9 years.
americans are always screaming insults about muslims. you regularly say they are worthy of being killed.
well maybe that is strong. you just excuse the killing of them. is that somehow better?
Now if we were to accept circumcision for females (which I would support neither ) and like abortion take it out of the medically untrained and into hospitals with clean conditions and some pain killing drugs would it be OK.
there are some other practices some very painful that are applied to male genitalia.(other than circumcision) Are they OK.
It is UNSAFE because it is not performed in a hospital , just as appendectomies or any other operation performed out side of sterile environments.
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"between Islam and modern Christianity"
but there is between Modern Islam and Modern Christianity .
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I haven't noticed Christians imposing the death sentence on anyone who converts to Islam or rampaging through Muslim areas and destroying mosques.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,116396,00.html
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2006-08/2006-08-25-voa37.cfm?CFID=162012592&CFTOKEN=58879752&jsessionid=66302cb6328df38cefec547c44459181a1b5
small scale OK
as to converting to Islam
"LORDS RESISTANCE ARMY"
You have been told about them before but must be too crusty to read up
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80. At 3:03pm on 04 Apr 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
There seems to be a misunderstanding between religion" and fanatics who use religous to justify persecution and intolerance.
No religion involves intolerance. There is an artificail distinctionmade by some, but either you beleive or you do not.
It is noticeable that atempts to fudge this have lead to religious decline in the West.
"The Inquisition The Slavc Pograns and other intolerances have been widely condemned."
Have they? What is a Slave programme and what has that to do with religion?
The people who condemend these excesses were either protestants, who had their own problems and agenda and aetheists who realise religion always leads to abuse.
"But what the West finds frustrating are moslem leaders(political and religous)refusal to condemn abuses by their fellow moslems."
Andwell heeled, comfortable, north London rabbis who muttter "Israel we're proud of you" after another IDF atrocity is revealed and urge their flock in any country to join the IDF and do their own share of oppression and killing. Before coming home to complete their lives in safety.
"The recent unified support of the Sudanese leader, the justification of 4 cowardly Pakistanain men for whipping a woman because she refused to marry a tribal leader their unwillingness to denouce Hezbollah and Hamas terrorism."
Or the safe and secure Americans like your hero Mr Dershovitz who writes extremist books to justify the oppresion of 4 million Palestinians.
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70. At 10:01am on 04 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
38. jr4412 wrote:
"IMhO - all three Abrahamic religions are as bad as each other, and, because this debate is moderated, cannot even put into words what I really think should happen to the adherents."
Right, that's your "humble" opinion. You must be joking. But don't hold back. The moderators are tolerant enough to allow some pretty foul comments through here and I like to know the kind of people I'm dealing with in these debates.
------------------------------
Yea they allow you to post all the time. that proves your point.
I'm with him as long as that includes christians(who do not cut off the end all the time.)
This is what the "END TIMES" is about
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STU Rome
"And as for us not "forcing" mutilation, what would you call a bris? Isn't that the forcing of male circumcision on an infant boy?"
You are quite correct - it is mutilation and I condemn it. However we do not live in a predominantly Jewish society and there are many secular Jews who possibly do not circumcise their sons (I don't have any stats)
We are talking here of the states and here it is very common for the doctors to encourage male circumcision on all males.
Religion aside.
I doubt there are many adherent jews in america that have not "had it off". they have managed to convince so many with their "studies".
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re: 45. allmymarbles wrote: People who refer to themselves in the third-person singular make me cringe.
I don't agree. It can be used when one wants to express a sense that both "you" and "I" share a common set of virtues, vices, opportunities, or problems, as the case may be.
I often use "we" when expressing a critical view, so as not to suggest that I am absolving myself of the criticism. Obama does this a lot as well, usually prefaced by an attention getting word like "look." As in: "Look, we need to . . . ," or "Look, we are facing . . . ".
It is a far cry from "we are not amused."
Yours,
Pinko
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http://esciencenews.com/articles/2009/01/28/circumcision.rates.lower.states.where.medicaid.does.not.cover.procedure
Why should it.
Stu 56%.
http://www.norm-uk.org/circumcision_media_resources.html?action=showitem&item=583
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16673355
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ref #88
And the rabbis have every reason to be proud of Israel defending itself agianst Islamic terrorists.
Any interested in security of a friendly state should be apllauding Israel heroism and condeensing the cowardness of the Palestinians and Lebanese who support terrorist groups
Europeans don't seem to protest the human rights violations of countrties whose majority are moslems.
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85. happylaze wrote:
americans are always screaming insults about muslims. you regularly say they are worthy of being killed.
As I guess you know, that's a lie. I've never said that since I don't believe it. But if you really believe this is a regular occurrence it shouldn't be too hard for you to find one comment of mine where I say "Muslims are worthy of being killed."
Take your time.
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Regarding circumcision, and the underlying questions of moral equivalency and cultural relativism: I am imagining a view of the humanity from the Archimedean point of an alien anthropologist, to whom the world might appear as though Muslim east and Christian west are pulling in opposite and equally destructive directions.
Our anthropologist might see the tendency of the west is toward a state of permanently aroused materialism. Scorching the planet as we go, we are desire unbound. Hedonism mixed with a sense of divine entitlement to the fruits of the earth make a toxic mix. Our eros drives us into the arms of thánatos, the only true satiation of desire.
Looking east he might note the tendency toward a state of disembodied glorification of death; by embracing death, the jihadii, for example, triumphs over merely physical desires, and proves his love for god. Love for eternity makes death in the temporal world easy. A vale of tears indeed.
This anthropologist would no doubt note the way these tendencies play out upon the body, particularly upon the female body.
In the west, she would see as the apotheosis of our culture of desire in the porn star/stripper, who willingly undergoes surgical mutilations in the effort to approximate the ultimate object of desire.
In the east, she would see the removal of the clitoris and/or the labia (and Happy Jack, it is more akin to lopping off the penis, as opposed to removing the foreskin) as a way of negating sexual pleasure, thereby transcending the merely physical world of sexual desire.
Which is the more abhorrent practice? Which the more destructive civilization? I'd wager on a lot of equivocating, and a pretty damning analysis of the extreme tendencies of both.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Guess I should post the news footage just to prove a point.
Did many of you even know that a third building had collapsed completely to the ground for no apparent reason? Look into it and you'll start to see why there are so many people who believe 9/11 was an inside job.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mxFRigYD3s
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78, Simon, et al.
My point is that it is hypocritical to search out the evils in other societies and condemn them, whiile ignoring, and even accepting, the evils in our own. There is plenty that is morally wrong in this society. That is where our attention should be. If these weak nations that we attack for their practices were to turn the tables on us, we would not look great in the eys of the world.
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Well, now that the Europeans got the US president they wanted; one that trashes and blames America at every turn like they do; that wants our executives to spend 3 days on a train from NY to LA, instead of a 5 hours flight, etc etc etc, will, in return, provide us with the billions needed for our defense and the higher taxes we will all be paying thanks to Obama's plan of creating a 10trillions dollars deficit? Can we now sit and relax for the next 60 years trusting the EU will protect us? Or all this patronizing bs about the 'job well done kids for electing Obama' finishes there? You've got your idol. Now what do we get in return for electing him? We dont eat or pay taxes with European compliments and goodwill (we learned that back on 9/11/01)....
And while we're at it...please tell us beyond the fun part of having a cool kid that you like, what other benefits are you getting from Obama? because just like with Bush (personalities aside) I see nothing from Obama's policies that helps Europe, just like I never saw anything of Bush's policies that harmed it...it was all emotional, personal perception, frustation ventilation for Bush decisiveness of putting US interst first (what you guys call arrongance) etc. Freedom fries was miniscule compared to decades of insults and rampant antiamericanism in Europe only comparable to religious fanaticism.
So We're waiting for our 'prize' ...better be a good one.
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99 -
There you go again, assuming you speak for all Americans. Tsk. Such hubris. Such ignorance too. Fortunately, the Europeans on this blog surely know better than to lump all Americans together, so only you need feel shame.
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MagicKirin #80 wrote:
"There seems to be a misunderstanding between religion and fanatics who use religous to justify persecution and intolerance."
not misunderstanding, more like false premise.
all three Abrahamic religions use our innate spirituality as a means of control; most if not all people feel there's something that connects all life on earth and the churches rationalise it into being "their god". priests, rabbies, immans - they all sit pretty, kept in relative comfort by the contributions of the believers, while those believers are kept in line with messages of fear, uncertainty & doubt.
as a result you can say (#93) "Any interested in security of a friendly state should be apllauding Israel heroism.." without, appearently, a trace of irony. see also relevant comments in #78 & #88 by Simon21, and others.
we all now live in a world that has become increasingly (2000+ years) distorted by religious views and therefore have face up to the consequences, as british-ish (#68) says [quoted out of context, but nevertheless]: "What societies cannot do with moral force is advocate the abandonment of a practice they themselves pursue."
re. circumcision, thank you all who speak aginst mutilating children for whatever (non-clinical) reason, particularly happylaze (#92) for the links, and chronophobe #95 for the "alien" perspective.
on-topic, re. President Obama: he is charismatic and get's cheered in Europe. I hope he can bring real change but worry because (a) the established, vested interest groups are unlikely to allow significant changes, and (b) I heard him use the word "stakeholder" on US TV - this word was used often by Tony Blair in the early days of his being PM, and Blair's legacy is bad.
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"so only you need feel shame"
I feel no shame of being American. The Obamas apparently do as do their followers; never in my life I heard an American president bashing the US or one of his predecessor in foreign lands. I thought the 'Blame America First' crowd was limited to the Michael Moores and Jane Fondas of this country. I dont expect Obama to follow Bush's style but he can learn a thing or two of other classy fellow democrats US presidents like Clinton or Kennedy...
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# 63
Question: Why does
God require circumcision?
Circumcision was God's appointed "sign of the covenant"(promise). which signified Abraham's promise to the Lord, that the Lord alone would be his God. It symboliized a self-maladictory oath "If I am not loyal in faith and obedience to the Lord, may the sword of the Lord cut off me and my offspring as I have cut off my foreskin".
for Israelites it was to be done on the 8th day after birth, Arabs,who consider themselves desendants of Ismael, are circumcised at the age of 13. It serves as a rite of transition from childhood to manhood.
Here in the states, the majority of ladies appear to prefer the circumcised male, and will wrinkle their nose at the thought of an uncircumcised male, doctors are now performing this procedure at the request of the parents. it also is considered less painful than that sharp needle that they stick into the heel of every newborn.
I hope that answers the question.
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Re #99
# 100 Bere54 wrote: There you go again assuming you speak for all americans... and more
Well #99 I agree with you so yes you do speak for me, and for many more americans. I dont think there are too many (if any) americans losing sleep over what the europeans might think of us. that didn't sound too arrogant, did it?
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JR4412 #101 wrote: believers are kept in line with messages of fear, uncertainty and doubt.
As a christian I take exception to that presumption. I do not live in fear, uncertainty, or doubt. In fact the exact opposite is true, because of my trust and belief in God, I live a peaceful, happy, fearless, life as do many other of my christian brothers and sisters.
What I do encounter on a regular basis is some people who write about religion dont know much about it at all.
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britsaxon #103 wrote:
"Circumcision was God's appointed "sign of the covenant"(promise). which signified Abraham's promise to the Lord, that the Lord alone would be his God. It symboliized a self-maladictory oath "If I am not loyal in faith and obedience to the Lord, may the sword of the Lord cut off me and my offspring as I have cut off my foreskin"."
sigh..
given the way things are going -- pollution & climate, nuclear weapons ten to the dozen, politicians who feather their own nests rather than seeking to improve peoples lives, discrimination, hatred and intolerance the norm rather than the exception -- I fear you may not have to wait for much longer before we and our offspring will be "cut off" as you put it.
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britsaxon.
in #104 you agree with VinaTamara #99 who writes "..with the billions needed for our defense.." and "Can we now sit and relax for the next 60 years trusting the EU will protect us?"
then you say (#105) that you lead a "..happy, fearless, life.."
I suggest, repectfully (though through gritted teeth), that you are in fact a typical religious "type" (see post #26 for my thoughts on the matter).
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54 allmymarbles
I am neutral on the practice of male circumcision, but cannot understand toleration for the female kind. I'm very much of the opinion of british-ish in 68- no matter how you dice it, some things are not morally acceptable.
We can decry the abuses of other nations while at the same time work on our own.
I've never ever (and never will) justify pornography or prostitution or the glorification of shallow, commercialized sexuality, but don't think any of these (except perhaps prostitution) even comes close to this one.
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102 VinTamara
You rely on false logic. Just because some people- including our current president- are mature enough to admit to our shortcomings and failures does not mean they are "bashing" the United States. Or, do you think that we never as a people make mistakes? Have we always lived up to our own lofty and inspiring ideals? Which is better, to sweep injustices under the rug, or to air them out, acknowledge them, ask for pardon, and continue on our way?
We are a nation, not machismo-driven gym rats, so the "real men don't apologize" school of thought has no place. It's not "my country, right or wrong"- it's "my country, right or wrong, but let's do our best to do the right."
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108, Via-Media.
"I am neutral on the practice of male circumcision, but cannot understand toleration for the female kind. I'm very much of the opinion of british-ish in 68- no matter how you dice it, some things are not morally acceptable."
WHAT OTHER CULTURES BELIEVE IN IS NONE OF OUR BUSINESS. And it is our sanctimonious interference (while tolerating our own immoral practices) that creates enemies for us. We are considered arrogant. Big surprise!
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108, Via-Media.
Let me put it another way. The cultures on the receiving end of our dubious moral condemnation perceive this hidden message: "We are smarter, more humane, more evolved than you ignorant barbarians." The unfortunate truth is that there is truth in their perceptions.
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111. allmymarbles,
You got that right. Those who condemn barbarism such as Female Genital Mutilation certainly are generally way better than those who practice it. You should study up on the lifelong psychological and physical damage suffered by those FGM is inflicted on.
But if you really are such a "live and let live" person, you should think about stopping your vicious attacks on Israel. Unless of course your lofty philosophy collapses when it comes to the Israelis.
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In Ref. to 111 allmymarbles:
I would add that many Americans perceive this hidden message from Europe: "We are smarter, more humane, more cultured than you ignorant, superstitious colonials, despite the fact that you elected Pres. Obama."
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Ref #101 Despite extremist propoganda the Christian and Jewish faiths have very little policy influece in govermental or legal matters in progressive western countres. At least no more than other lobbying groups I would argyue the ACLU, gay right advocates push their agenda and beliefs more strong on others.
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"112. At 06:52am on 05 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
111. allmymarbles,
You got that right. Those who condemn barbarism such as Female Genital Mutilation certainly are generally way better than those who practice it. You should study up on the lifelong psychological and physical damage suffered by those FGM is inflicted on.
"
Pretty crude logic on an equivalent level with your views on Israeli atrocities.
Hitler banned vivisection, didn't drink alcohol and was a keen vegetarian.
However that did not make him "better" than many people who ate meat, beleive in vivisection and drink alcohol.
Condemning female circumcision, while remaining indifferent to starvation, health etc is ridiculous.
"You should study up on the lifelong psychological and physical damage suffered by those FGM is inflicted on."
That is of course if they survive to have a life and are not murdered, starved, die of disease etc. You know the common sort of abominations which do not make it into the press.
Many people in these countries look askance at "mental trauma" - they would like to have the chance to suffer it, as opposed to watching their children die from walking on landmines, eating regurgitated rubbish and drinking contaminated water.
"But if you really are such a "live and let live" person, you should think about stopping your vicious attacks on Israel. Unless of course your lofty philosophy collapses when it comes to the Israelis."
And your basic humanity collapses when it comes to the Palestinians.
And by Israelies you mean of course some Israelies, not thse who do not beleong to the master ethnic group.
Frankly nothing is more disgusting than those who from their comfortable, well fed, backgrounds wack on about "issues" like female circumcision in the third (fourth) world.
The latest fuss over Afghanistan tyopifies this pompous, arrogant out of touch attitude.
We have Western leaders lining up to say they disapprove a law going through the Afghan parliament as it will cut away at the rights of women.
Fair enough. But these leaders have no problem with the fact that most Afghan women live in grinding poverty, are malnourished and have no access to basic medical care.
A recent doc on UN food aid revealed that this aid is often cooked by using the plastic bags it comes in since few can afford fuel. Burning plastic in a confined environemtn over time of course exposes the family (usually women) to all sorts of respiratory illness including cancers.
So we have the delightfull paradox that western aid is probably helping to advance serious disease among thiose it is intended to help!
These are the sort of issues that make a difference to women.
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108. At 02:24am on 05 Apr 2009, Via-Media wrote:
54 allmymarbles
I am neutral on the practice of male circumcision, but cannot understand toleration for the female kind. I'm very much of the opinion of british-ish in 68- no matter how you dice it, some things are not morally acceptable. "
Yes and systematic starvation is the first morally unacceptable factor is it not?
But it remains curiously tolerated.
But hey ignore that lets focus on feamle circumscion. As long as females are not circumsised they can starve with our blessing.
Job well done!
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110, allmymarbles: "WHAT OTHER CULTURES BELIEVE IN IS NONE OF OUR BUSINESS."
What about when people from other cultures move to the U.S. or Western Europe and then want to continue their cultural/religious practices in violation of the laws? I refer specifically to female circumcision and the forced marriages of young girls. Should people from other cultures be exempted from the law of the land they choose to immigrate to? I'm curious as to your feelings on this.
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109
"Just because some people- including our current president- are mature enough to admit to our shortcomings and failures does not mean they are "bashing" the United States."
America as many mistakes as it makes is the most prone country to admit its own shortcomings. In fact is the one that most tell its gossips to the world in the form of news, movies, books, comedy or whatever.
Have always been that way. If Obama wants to 'correct image or whatever' (and besides being liked by the Europeans and getting along with them and on their terms! Im not sure what else) he can do so by example and not by bashing. You talk about maturity, yet nothing's more immature that finger pointing specially in foreign countries to previous presidents.
That is not good for this country. If one thing people really admire of the US is its own continuity and the peaceful way our presidents transfer power. It's beyond me why it is always expected of America to be the one apologizing, mute, pc, at some points things need be said point blank. Bush said back in 2002 that North Korea was part of the triangle. I couldnt imaging wtf he was talking about. Well, today we have cool Obama and today we've also learned that there was a reason for NK to be in that axis. Bush wasnt just being confrontational for the fun and 'arrogance' of it...
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I agree with 118. Cultural traits should be respected when practiced in their homelands, but once they emigrate the host country is in no obligation to accept these cultural behaviours, specially when they are incompatible with those of the recieving countries. Haitians in Florida have protested over the ban of practicing voodooism. Well, too bad. The Miami/Dade county health department considers it a health hazard to have dead animals 'sacrified' in voodoo rituals and then disposed trash bins.
Dont like it? Leave. Simple as that.
Same goes to the circuncisions, beheading, stoning, and the rest of the 'culturally sensitive' traditions...
Niether US, Canada or Europe have to put up with that.
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114, bienvenue.
"I would add that many Americans perceive this hidden message from Europe: 'We are smarter, more humane, more cultured than you ignorant, superstitious colonials, despite the fact that you elected Pres. Obama'."
That may be more what the Europeans feel, rather than what Americans perceive. But Europe will have to rethink us now. The Obamas radiate a naturalness, grace, intelligence and good humor that belies that stereotype.
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120 -
Um, I wasn't making a statement to be agreed or disagreed with. I was asking someone else her thoughts on the matter.
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120, VinaTamara.
"Cultural traits should be respected when practiced in their homelands, but once they emigrate the host country is in no obligation to accept these cultural behaviours, specially when they are incompatible with those of the recieving countries."
I agree wholeheartedly.
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118, bere.
"What about when people from other cultures move to the U.S. or Western Europe and then want to continue their cultural/religious practices in violation of the laws? I refer specifically to female circumcision and the forced marriages of young girls. Should people from other cultures be exempted from the law of the land they choose to immigrate to? I'm curious as to your feelings on this."
When someone emigrates to the United States (or any other country), that person should be expected to conform to the culture he has adopted. If he can't, then he should stay home.
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MagicKirin #115 wrote:
"Ref #101 Despite extremist propoganda the Christian and Jewish faiths have very little policy influece in govermental or legal matters in progressive western countres."
you appear to have, sadly, no grasp of history (reality even!).
for instance, in the UK bishops get to sit in the House of Lords unelected, the monarch has "Defender of the Faith" in their title; in Germany part of the income tax is automatically passed on to the Roman Catholic Church; in your own country (US) there's much debate about the influence of the pro-Israel lobby on Washington AND the US pays foreign aid ($3bn pa approx.) to Israel.
you could find (more) evidence but I read into your comments that you approach debate with a closed mind. c'est la vie.
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125 -
Also in the U.S. in recent years, the Christian lobby has had a great deal of influence on public policy and legal matters (and on the Israel issue). Obama is allowing this to continue in part by retaining the "faith-based" office in the White House and appointing an evangelical preacher to run it. Anyone who tries to deny the influence of the Christian lobby has got to be deaf and blind. I do think Obama will lessen their power in the FDA at least.
And lest anyone start making noises about there not being an actual Christian lobby: A group or person does not have to be officially registered as a "lobbyist" in order to exert great influence.
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Justin:
Oh, lordy: a girl in the audience asks Obama if he knows that his name in Hungarian means peach! He did not. I think I would have that sort of question....
-Dennis Junior
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Justin:
TRAINS President Obama wants the United States to be like Europe in the realm of operating trains, but there are many problems with that idea...
-Dennis Junior
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117, Simon.
You have focused on an issue that transcends culture. Surely we should aid the starving, no matter who they are, or what they believe.
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oops, correction to #125.
MagicKirin, please disregard "..but I read into your comments that you approach debate with a closed mind." I re-read posts, confused you with another person, apologies.
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103 britsaxon
You write on the subject of circumcision
"Here in the states, the majority of ladies appear to prefer the circumcised male, and will wrinkle their nose at the thought of an uncircumcised male"
At the risk of being indiscreet, I have never noticed any nose-wrinkling ... but maybe the British accent is more than fair compensation for my uncut member!!!!
Do we dare ask our lady contributors for their views?
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120. VinaTamara wrote:
"I agree with 118. Cultural traits should be respected when practiced in their homelands"
So you do not believe that USA should continue its policy of spreading democracy into cultures that have no history of it? Why are we in Iraq?
This is a total cop-out. There is a big difference between forcing US / British / Western culture all over the world, and working to eradicate the certain hideous practises still acceptable in some areas.
Remember this .... 100 years ago women could not vote in the West.
140 years ago married women were the chattels of their husbands and if divorced received nothing.
And not long ago some tribes in remote areas of the pacific still ate their enemies.
Should we have left the status quo so as not to upset other cultures.
It comes back to ethical absolutes versus morals - some things are absolutely wrong (murder, mutilation, rape etc) whereas others are moral issues depending on your belief system (adultery, bigamy etc)
Please understand the difference.
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123 allmymarbles wrote:
"120, VinaTamara.
"Cultural traits should be respected when practiced in their homelands, but once they emigrate the host country is in no obligation to accept these cultural behaviours, specially when they are incompatible with those of the recieving countries."
I agree wholeheartedly."
Ms Marbles, you really surprise me.
Do you really think that we should have nothing to say about the punishment rape of women in remote areas of Pakistan, convicted on the word of a man; or the stoning of rape victims in muslim areas of Nigeria; or even the catholic excommunication of doctors in south american for giving an abortion to a child rape victim?
These are not "cultural traditions" but barbaric practises and it does not make me arrogant for pointing this out.
I repsect the genuine cultural traditions of other cultures. I travel extensively and always try to get inside the places I visit, but the are certain absolutes that should not be tolerated.
We in the west have all benefitted from cultural advances in the last 200 years - should we perhaps reinstate slavery, as it was the culture of the south? - and to equivocate today about other wrongs around the world is both weak and pitiless.
If everyone thought as you and vinatamara do, then we would still be living in the middle ages.
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133, RomeStu -
As a female (not sure if I can claim to be a "lady") contributor, my view is that ... well, at the risk of being indiscreet, I must confess to never having even seen (in person, that is) an uncut ... you know ... much less having, er, ... well, you know. But I do go all wobbly-kneed at a British accent. So you may be right.
Someone above mentioned a desensitizing result of the cut -- in my experience that has never been a problem. However, if this is indeed so, this might explain why the un-intact could be preferable to women, as it would help prevent any premature ... release.
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RomeStu
"Do we dare ask our lady contributors for their views?"
I suggest you dare not!
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135, RomeStu -
I agree. I have been quite disturbed by certain practices that to any reasonable person seem savage but apparently fall into the category of "cultural tradition." The so-called "honor killings" are a cultural tradition in some parts of Turkey (among other countries) and because of this I cringe whenever I hear Turkey praised as a modern democracy.
I don't think that being appalled at "honor" murders, or any other savage or cruel practice, makes me arrogant.
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In Ref. to 125 jr4412:
You are exaggerating a bit on the influence of religion on modern western governments; even a few of your examples of undesired religious influence are quite out of context. In your example of Germanys income tax directed to the Roman Catholic Church, you neglect to mention that these modern day tithes are voluntary and directed to whichever faith the tax payer wants, so long as the faith is one of the many faiths recognized by the state as not being a cult like Scientology; if you dont want to pay em, dont check the box on your tax forms. As for the pro-Israeli lobby, your stance only shows that you have no real idea what an American lobby is and how one operates; A lobby is a group, organization or association-be it Pro-Israel or Pro-Agriculture or the ACLU-seeking to influence the passage or defeat of legislation; their influence is not guaranteed, but the right to attempt to influence legislation is guaranteed by the First Amendment to the Constitution, which reads Congress shall make no law abridging the right of the people 'to petition the government for a redress of grievances'. Originally the term referred to persons frequenting the lobbies or corridors of legislative chambers in order to speak to and inform lawmakers, today that person is called a lobbyist because he works for a lobby; would you have this right of petition to Congress removed from the Constitution? I noticed that you also conveniently left out the VERY secular France from your list. I will concede though that the fact that the Queen of England is also the head of the Church of England leaves some credence to your remarks.
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135, RomeStu.
I only write or comment about things of which I have a personal experience. Too often the media distorts (or edits) events, or reports very rare occurences. Therefore, concerning your entry, I have no comment.
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bere54
Very discreetly said. What is the topic of this thread? "What they don't want to hear." (or see/not see). I leave it to the men to decide/find out for themselves. Personally I prefer a French accent.
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122. bere54 wrote:
120 -
Um, I wasn't making a statement to be agreed or disagreed with. I was asking someone else her thoughts on the matter.
You need to enter into the spirit of the Internet. We are not having private conversations in the kitchen here. The field is wide open for anyone to pick up on what anyone else says and venture an opinion.
Though there are quite a few regulars on this blog who would censor those they don't agree with if they could, the only ones who have the right and the ability to silence anyone here are the moderators, representing the blog hosts.
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141, timewaits -
French is good too.
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140. allmymarbles wrote:
"I only write or comment about things of which I have a personal experience. Too often the media distorts (or edits) events, or reports very rare occurences. Therefore, concerning your entry, I have no comment."
Ms Marbles. I usually find your posts both insightful and informative. You have had experiences beyond the reach of the majority of us in terms of your exposure to the depth of other cultures.
However I find it both surprising and hard to accept that you have no comment on such matters of ethical absolutism as honour killings, stonings or child mutilation, however much they are dressed up as culturally valid.
One does not need to have experience of these terrible things to have either the ability or the right to comment.
You, of course, are fully entitled not to comment - this is a public forum after all - but I remain surprised at your "neutrality".
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142 -
Oh brother. There goes Mr./Ms. Missing the Point again.
Do you not understand the difference between a question as to someone else's thoughts/beliefs and a statement of one's own thoughts/beliefs?
The point of my post was that I was asking a question, not making a statement.
Get it?
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BienvenueEnLouisiana #139.
"In your example of Germanys income tax directed to the Roman Catholic Church, you neglect to mention that these modern day tithes are voluntary and directed to whichever faith the tax payer wants, so long as the faith is one of the many faiths recognized by the state as not being a cult like Scientology; if you dont want to pay em, dont check the box on your tax forms."
today perhaps, in the late 1970s in (then) West-Germany the "tithes" were mandated. I had to go (and did) to the local townhall, obtain a form and pay DM5 stamp-duty in order to get excempted.
".. but the right to attempt to influence legislation is guaranteed by the First Amendment to the Constitution, .."
yes, and it has happened already: the USD bears the sentence "In God We Trust" and public speaking in the US is invariably concluded by "God Bless America". (Christian) religious influence is as deeply ingrained in the US as in many, if not most, countries of the world.
re. lobbies: the same mechanisms remains in the UK House of Commons -- obviously without being guaranteed since there is no written constitution.
"I noticed that you also conveniently left out the VERY secular France from your list."
true enough, I also omitted the Scandinavian countries, and I did not cite Italy, Spain and others. the list laid no claim to being exhaustive.
you think that I'm "..exaggerating a bit on the influence of religion on modern western governments..".
I say that after 2000+ years of the recorded existence of the Abrahamic religions and their spread around the globe, we are mostly unaware of how deeply affected (or should that be afflicted?) we are.
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134. At 8:37pm on 05 Apr 2009, RomeStu wrote:
120. VinaTamara wrote:
"I agree with 118. Cultural traits should be respected when practiced in their homelands"
So you do not believe that USA should continue its policy of spreading democracy into cultures that have no history of it? Why are we in Iraq?
This is a total cop-out. There is a big difference between forcing US / British / Western culture all over the world, and working to eradicate the certain hideous practises still acceptable in some areas.
Remember this .... 100 years ago women could not vote in the West.
140 years ago married women were the chattels of their husbands and if divorced received nothing.
And not long ago some tribes in remote areas of the pacific still ate their enemies."
And remeber this not long ago "we" were committing genocide agains jews, armenians, gt ypsies.
And yes "our2 women have the vote
they are also subject to the largest porn industry in the world and can be raped, given the laughable prosecution rates (to the extent where many do not even bother reporting it) almost with impunity.
And we will ot go into some of the cases (running at one a week) of systematic incest.
You seem very picky about the rights of women.
Rights to vote like any other rights are look good on paper but are precious use to anyone unenforced.
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135. At 8:47pm on 05 Apr 2009, RomeStu wrote:
"I repsect the genuine cultural traditions of other cultures. I travel extensively and always try to get inside the places I visit, but the are certain absolutes that should not be tolerated."
Does that include starvation and poverty?
"We in the west have all benefitted from cultural advances in the last 200 years - should we perhaps reinstate slavery, as it was the culture of the south? - and to equivocate today about other wrongs around the world is both weak and pitiless."
Oh we are so advanced I forgot. of course we have committed several genocides launched two world wars killing over 70 million and invaded practically every other country and culture on earth.
Can't think of any other culture that managed all that over 100 years can you?
But hey lets preach!
"If everyone thought as you and vinatamara do, then we would still be living in the middle ages."
Yes and the Middle Ages did not have a huge porn industry and its people diod not seek salvation in Britney Spears thing.
The fact that people of earlier ages did not have nuclear weapons or kiddie porn does not mean they were somehow primitive.
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129. At 7:38pm on 05 Apr 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
117, Simon.
You have focused on an issue that transcends culture. Surely we should aid the starving, no matter who they are, or what they believe."
What culture can there be if the majority of people cannot eat.
Do you think the women of the the North African deserts and the Afghan hills are concerened about having the vote? As much as they are concerened about hqaving enough to eat?
And do you think they are as obsessed with female circumsion as they are of dying in childbirth?
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124. At 6:53pm on 05 Apr 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
118, bere
Very simple but who defines that culture? Who says what is acceptable and what is not? Gay bashing is tolerated among some, immigrant bashing by others.
The RC church cannot tolerate women clerics or gays in its ranks, but it is the bedrock of Western culture.
It is also noticeable that those who wax most defninitively on this subject tend to be the most fascistic for thr simple reason that cultures are often defined by those who are excluded from them. And of course cultural definitions are usually bound up with extreme nationalism.
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144, RomeStu.
"However I find it both surprising and hard to accept that you have no comment on such matters of ethical absolutism as honour killings, stonings or child mutilation, however much they are dressed up as culturally valid."
You make it sound as though I were in favor of atrocities. I don't think you understood my comment. I do not rely on the media for information as to specific events. I have found it grossly unreliable (particularly as concerns third-world countries), if not downright misleading (to put it politely). You are asking me to comment on specific events of which I have no intimate knowledge. I cannot do that.
The media needs sensation to keep its readers. If not much is happening it will create something. I cannot distinguish the real from the creation unless I have experience on the subject, or the nation in question.
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144. At 10:29pm on 05 Apr 2009, RomeStu wrote:
"However I find it both surprising and hard to accept that you have no comment on such matters of ethical absolutism as honour killings, stonings or child mutilation, however much they are dressed up as culturally valid."
And some of us find it hard that you have no comment on child porn, rape, domestic violence and state killing by the needle or is that too close to home?
When it comes to child porn (a huge industry) v child circumscion (in terms of females an extremely tiny monority) w one would have to say no contest.
Except of course that one is highly profitable,funded by the west and apparently growing.
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allmymarbles #151.
"honour killings" are well documented, not created by the media that "..needs sensation to keep its readers."
and they don't just happen in Turkey or Afghanistan, here in the UK they occur with increasing frequency too.
"stonings", thankfully, have not been reported in the UK, but there was a recent case in Northern Nigeria.
even if you "..cannot distinguish the real from the creation..", surely, you must have an opinion?
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Simon21 #147, #148, #152.
v good posts!
as you say, porn is a big industry -- $8bn pa a few years ago in the US alone. it would be interesting to know how many shareholders/owners of these unsavoury businesses are "good" religious types who go to church every Sunday?
does anyone out there have data?
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RomeStu, Simon & jr.
Why are you all so upset that I have standards? Would you prefer that I blathered away like staph. aureus and ubermensch? At least when I speak you know that I am not making things up. And if I wish to remain silent when I am not knowledgeable about a subject, I should think you would respect that.
I was quite happy to talk about female circumcision, because I spent time talking to the people it affected, and on their home ground.
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allmymarbles #155.
"..if I wish to remain silent when I am not knowledgeable about a subject, I should think you would respect that."
I re-read #54 & some of the other posts; you're right (and consistent), sorry, I shouldn't have "pushed".
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155, allmymarbles -
It seems a bit odd to me that anyone would assume that all the news reports of stonings, beatings, honor killings, rapes, etc., are made up for the sake of sensationalism. If you were not actually in Gaza during the latest war there, does this mean you refuse to have an opinion on what took place there because none of the media can be trusted? Perhaps the alleged atrocities were simply hyped-up media sensationalism? But I seem to recall that you do have a strong opinion on that subject.
Sorry, but this seems like a cop-out to me. No one is forced to express an opinion on anything of course, but your explanation seems very flawed. And this explanation implies that those of us who choose not to remain silent on this subject are just blathering about something we know nothing about.
Which you know very well is not the case.
If it is the case that having standards means not commenting on anything one does not have direct knowledge of, then I guess very few of us meet your standards. If we "rise" to your standards, there would be no blog at all.
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157, bere.
"Sorry, but this seems like a cop-out to me."
I care more about my investigative standards than what anyone thinks of me.
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158, allmymarbles -
That is admirable. But I think your investigative standards are wearing blinders in this case. Is the issue of culture/religion-related abuse of women not something you're interested in investigating?
You have been a strong advocate of Muslim culture; at least that's been my impression. Is it that you are not willing to look into its flaws? Or what many people consider to be its flaws?
You once made a cutting remark about Orthodox Jewish women being forced to shave their heads. This is incorrect, as I pointed out to you. That was a comment by you about an aspect of a culture about which you were misinformed, yet you did not choose to keep silent about it. So have you changed your standards since then, or is it that you choose to keep silent only about the unsavory aspects of Muslim culture which you have no direct knowledge of?
I'm not trying to badger you, but I find this fascinating.
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159, bere.
I didn't even bother to read past the first paragraph. It's a big world,kiddo and, unlike some, I don't have to need to be expert in everything. Your sactimony is suspect. I readily agree that you are a better person than I.
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re: Simon 148 "of course we have committed several genocides launched two world wars killing over 70 million and invaded practically every other country and culture on earth.
Can't think of any other culture that managed all that over 100 years can you?"
It's a very good point. We are happy to praise the glories of our culture's achievements, but are all too silent when considering its horrors. Or we dismiss these terrible things as irruptions of "barbarism," primitive aberrations somehow external to the progressive and rational nature of our civilization.
What we must contemplate is that not only does "the sleep of reason produce monsters," but that the most hideous things can be carried out in the name of progress, indeed, in the name of liberty, equality, and fraternity. Reason seems to imply its very own brand of barbarity.
That being said, we do have our achievements. So when you say, "Do you think the women of the the North African deserts and the Afghan hills are concerened about having the vote? As much as they are concerened about hqaving enough to eat? And do you think they are as obsessed with female circumsion as they are of dying in childbirth?," I would reply by saying that we do not know. The women of these places have no public voice, no power to express what it is they may or may not want, or fear.
Is it not a worthy task to do help these women find a way to freely express what it is they do want? And more than this, to do something positive by way of empowering them to feel they are free to make decisions about what they want for themselves?
Yours,
Pinko
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136. At 9:22pm on 05 Apr 2009, bere54 :
I am shocked to see you apparently advocating genital mutilation merely for the purpose of increasing one sex's pleasure.
;-)
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156, jr.
":I re-read #54 & some of the other posts; you're right (and consistent), sorry, I shouldn't have 'pushed.'"
I am always surprised when someone reads my stuff. Thank you for your reply.
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160, allmymarbles -
If you didn't bother to read past the first paragraph, you missed the point about your own inconsistency concerning other cultures with which you are not familiar. But then none of us are perfect.
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162, british-ish -
Oh dear. I am shocked you would infer that! Heaven (if there were such a place) forbid!
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164, bere.
Put a sock in it.
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166 -
How mature. Last time I heard that was from a teenager. Some people cannot bear being challenged. Noticed that about you on earlier posts.
Good night.
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167, bere.
It is not possible to challenge a non-participant. You have been goading me to discuss a subject I refuse to discuss because I lack the necessary expertise. This has not stopped you from playing a single-sided game of moral one-upmanship with a non-responding party. If you feel you have won this non-debate, I congratulate you. Now please point your goody-two-shoes in another direction.
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147, 148, 152 Simon
You seem to have so much righteous indignation, and so little ability to follow a thread without going off on a tangent.
The line of comment was about female circumcision.
Your comment (I choose just one among many random outbursts)
"And some of us find it hard that you have no comment on child porn, rape, domestic violence and state killing by the needle or is that too close to home?"
is totally non-sequitur. I was not trying to comment on all the world's injustices in my post, merely the one which was already being discussed. I was not in any way defending our own western cultural failings.
Yu will find I have many comments on the subjects you list (hopefully most of you could guess my position!) and should those subjects come up on justin's Webb then I shall write them down.
You try to hijack rational discussion with emotive, yet unconnected distractions. It is not black and white. We do not lose the right to comment on other peoples' injustices because our lands are not free of them.
Please get some perspective and try to stick vaguely to the topic .... and calm down!
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151 marbles
apologies if I misunderstood your comments.
I simply find it hard to remain neutral on issues which I consider to be ethical absolutes (highlighted not just by the media, by by charities and aid organisations too)even though I have no first hand experience of them.
Pace
RomeStu
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169. At 07:49am on 06 Apr 2009, RomeStu wrote:
147, 148, 152 Simon
You seem to have so much righteous indignation, and so little ability to follow a thread without going off on a tangent.
The line of comment was about female circumcision.
Your comment (I choose just one among many random outbursts)
"And some of us find it hard that you have no comment on child porn, rape, domestic violence and state killing by the needle or is that too close to home?"
is totally non-sequitur. I was not trying to comment on all the world's injustices in my post, merely the one which was already being discussed. I was not in any way defending our own western cultural failings.
Yu will find I have many comments on the subjects you list (hopefully most of you could guess my position!) and should those subjects come up on justin's Webb then I shall write them down.
You try to hijack rational discussion with emotive, yet unconnected distractions. It is not black and white. We do not lose the right to comment on other peoples' injustices because our lands are not free of them.
Please get some perspective and try to stick vaguely to the topic .... and calm down!"
I make no apology whatsoever for being disgusted at the way in which well-fed and comfortable westerners make lofty pronouncements about third world "failings".
Many of your posts on this "topic" indicate clear complacency.
Those of us who have travelled in some of these areas and have seen how these people attempt to live with practically no resources know that the central and single issue here is, and always has been, poverty.
Not "female cicumcsion", not religion, not a failure to appreciate how wonderful our society is.
We also know the western media is less intersted in starvation and very interested in anything related to sex.
And this is the view of many charities also.
And as for the refrences to out own failings. SOme might say you are not likely to persuade anyone to give up a vice if you vigorously indulge in some yourself.
It is called hypocrisy and frankly it stinks.
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157. At 01:05am on 06 Apr 2009, bere54 wrote:
155, allmymarbles -
It seems a bit odd to me that anyone would assume that all the news reports of stonings, beatings, honor killings, rapes, etc., are made up for the sake of sensationalism. If you were not actually in Gaza during the latest war there, does this mean you refuse to have an opinion on what took place there because none of the media can be trusted? Perhaps the alleged atrocities were simply hyped-up media sensationalism? But I seem to recall that you do have a strong opinion on that subject."
But this is not the issue. Apart from the fact that some western countries happily execute poeple with needles so th eissue about stoning is frankly bizzarre -would it be better if the person was gently hanged?
People who have to live in these environments face challenges and suffering that it is very difficult to concieve.
If you, as I have, met women who have to walk (no matter what their age) some 3 to 5 miles each time their families need water, as well as trying to find fuel and food, then you would know that female circumscion, the vote etc are not the first things on their mind.
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Simon - first of all I care deeply about poverty and have travelled in the developing world and seen things which shocked me and opened my eyes.
Like all of us I could do more, of course, but the fact that I do not do 100% to solve world poverty does not negate my right to comment.
in 171 you write - "I make no apology whatsoever for being disgusted at the way in which well-fed and comfortable westerners make lofty pronouncements about third world "failings"."
Why should the fact that I am fortunate enough to be born in a land where food and shelter are generally a given disqualify me from commenting on the injustices in other cultures. Also you put words in my mouth when you write "third world failings" - a phrase of your own making.
I am fully aware of the failings of the West, and vote and act to improve those failings wherever possible.
I actually agree with many of your points, but you seem to always use a more extreme example of injustice to trump the topic under discussion, and accuse the poster of hypocrisy or complacency.
When you write in 172 - "Apart from the fact that some western countries happily execute poeple with needles so th eissue about stoning is frankly bizzarre -would it be better if the person was gently hanged?"
you miss the point. It is not about the method of death imposed, but the process of law. Yes, in the USA the death penalty is applied, and although it is deeply flawed, there is a semblance of the judicial process. The stonings of rape victims and honour killings are not remotely comparable (being the result of theocratic interpretations of religious law, which IMO does not rank as equivalent to our flawed democratic system), and therefore your anger is wasted by making this comparison. For the record I am 100% opposed to the death penalty in all its forms.
I agree that the most important thing on the minds of people in the developing world is more likely to be food, shelter and safety, but that does not mean the other injustices (mutilation, tyranny etc) are irrlevent. There is not a list of problems to be solved in order.
I also agree that there is much hypocrisy in the west, but it is unfair to tar all westerners with the brush of hypocrisy, just because we are not all out digging wells in Africa.
The fact that many people feel strongly is a good thing.
You evidently have a deep and genuine sense of injustice, and I respect that, however just because others do not reach your level of fury about it does not mean they don't care at all. Shades of gray, not black/white.
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173. At 10:30am on 06 Apr 2009, RomeStu wrote:
Simon - first of all I care deeply about poverty and have travelled in the developing world and seen things which shocked me and opened my eyes.
Like all of us I could do more, of course, but the fact that I do not do 100% to solve world poverty does not negate my right to comment."
Because it comes across as very judgemetnal and arrogant.
"in 171 you write - "I make no apology whatsoever for being disgusted at the way in which well-fed and comfortable westerners make lofty pronouncements about third world "failings"."
Why should the fact that I am fortunate enough to be born in a land where food and shelter are generally a given disqualify me from commenting on the injustices in other cultures. Also you put words in my mouth when you write "third world failings" - a phrase of your own making.
I am fully aware of the failings of the West, and vote and act to improve those failings wherever possible."
Good but the fact remains that these sort of pronouncments come ocross as very arrogant.
And you do not answer the point that issues like female circumcision are highlighted because tehy involve sex.
Incidently if you are so excised by feramle mutilation you might like to note that this is large industry in the West where we call it by the refined name of cosmetic surgery.
Indeed I would suggest that far more women in the civilised west have gone under the knife (some repeatedly)to please men, keep jobs etc then have been circumcised in Morroco et al.
Indeed I beleive paying for someone to have their breasts hacked about has now become an acceptable "gift".
"I actually agree with many of your points, but you seem to always use a more extreme example of injustice to trump the topic under discussion, and accuse the poster of hypocrisy or complacency."
It is a pretty powerful trump. As I say the issue is simple, poverty, lack of food. That's all that needs to be discussed. End those before blathering on about women's rights. Without the right to life all other rights are vacuous.
"When you write in 172 - "Apart from the fact that some western countries happily execute poeple with needles so th eissue about stoning is frankly bizzarre -would it be better if the person was gently hanged?"
you miss the point. It is not about the method of death imposed, but the process of law. Yes, in the USA the death penalty is applied, and although it is deeply flawed, there is a semblance of the judicial process. The stonings of rape victims and honour killings are not remotely comparable"
Say you so? I disagree. Killing people is killing, so called judicial processes are beside the point as are the methods used.
Killing anyone is wrong wether it takles place in a nice freshly painted chamber with new curtains and a comfortable couch or on a dusty plain with stones, or in a Chinese sports arena with a bullet to the neck.
However given that in many third world areas there is no law worth the name (no poor person in Nigeria or Bangladesh or New Guinea etc would ever dare to call the police) or well paid judiciary it is understandable that lynching is prevalent.
Recently there was an interview with some market traders in a town in Afghanistan where much to the annoyance of the interviewer they stated they preferred the rule of the Taliban because thieves had their hands amputated instead of joining the police.
This might seem harsh but again if one has one's pittance stolen one is inclined to want the perepetrqator severely punished.
It is less understandable that in a country with a prison system, well funded judiciary etc that it somehow feels compelled to act in a similar way.
"(being the result of theocratic interpretations of religious law, which IMO does not rank as equivalent to our flawed democratic system), and therefore your anger is wasted by making this comparison. For the record I am 100% opposed to the death penalty in all its forms."
I do not know what you mean by equivalent. Our system works because we have the money to fund it - and even then our politicos seem to have their snouts in the trough.
"I agree that the most important thing on the minds of people in the developing world is more likely to be food, shelter and safety, but that does not mean the other injustices (mutilation, tyranny etc) are irrlevent. There is not a list of problems to be solved in order."
No solve poverty and you solve (as much as can be) the others.
What do they do to derros the charities pick up in the streets of our cities? Give them a decent meal or give them a lecture?
"I also agree that there is much hypocrisy in the west, but it is unfair to tar all westerners with the brush of hypocrisy, just because we are not all out digging wells in Africa."
I am using the term in its general sense, nothing applies to every individual.
The fact that many people feel strongly is a good thing.
You evidently have a deep and genuine sense of injustice, and I respect that, however just because others do not reach your level of fury about it does not mean they don't care at all. Shades of gray, not black/white.
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168 -
You've proven my point. I rest my case.
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154 jr I did see some stats that the most profitable sex stores were in some pretty "christian" states.
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I think that the cruelty to a male child is still cruelty and that the reason the female circumcision came up here was because the male version was raised.
And fair enough. but the distractive angle to get away from any discussion about the males.
So still thinking both are wrong I ask those who think males not important but female circumcision is important, why they are so bias.
Here is the who report on FGM .http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/
There is nothing like that factsheet for males but there is a list of "chop it off" advice that is based on politically bias research. .
But americans think it is cleaner etc.
They still have higher rates of aids herpes and every other VD than europe.
So is it foreskins that cause the problems.
NO are you better off risking a good time with an chopped american than an uncut Brit , maybe thats a risk anywhere but statistically you're better off with the Brit.
No big fan fare for reports like this
http://www.womenshealth.gov/news/english/602421.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/05/AR2007030500357.html
http://www.jaids.org/pt/re/jaids/abstract.00126334-200712150-00017.htm;jsessionid=JhwCnQRdc70GC6h1JxhW6Zk3X2JmfQq27y6J12DpgbmzhzT5pB0G!285259918!181195628!8091!-1
Apparently cancer can grow on the circumcision scars.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=3944860
This is not a cut and dry issue.
as some here seem to be brian washed into thinking.
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172, simon.
If I have a jaded view of reportage on the Middle East, it is justified. There is a general prejudice against the region which makes all reports questionable. That is why I only comment when I have direct information.
There was a feature article in today's New York Times about the Jews in Bahrein. In this case I was able to evaluate the article, which was fairly accurate, because I know the country, and even lived there briefly. When I was at a pan-Arab tourist expo abut four years ago I fell in with the Bahreini contingent. I asked one of the men if he knew Ezra Nonoo (pronounced noonoo) an old acquaintance of mine. He said Exra was dead, and that his son was a member of parliament. Ezra and his family are Jewish. A niece of his was made Ambassador to the U.S. last year. My Moslem friends did not cringe or curl their lips when they spoke of Ezra, or show any signs of anti-semitism. They spoke of him familiarly. Bahrein is a small island country and everybody knows everybody. The article did not explore the political situation in Bahrein, but I know that there is a nationalist group simmering below the surface that would like to depose the emir.
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172, simon.
"If you were not actually in Gaza during the latest war there, does this mean you refuse to have an opinion on what took place there because none of the media can be trusted?"
The situation in Gaza was different. In the first place it was too big to manipulate. There was video footage. There were news bulletins from the Israelis, etc., etc. I do not recall commenting on the Gaza attack. I guess I may have in terms of the political timing, but in general I tend to avoid specifics of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, concentrating instead on the role of the U.S. in the Middle East.
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happylaze #177.
the WHO reference is telling. the site lists 2060 references for "genital mutilation", down to 7 when filtering for female & women, of these only one (!), the Norwegian law link, appears to refer to all children irrespective of gender.
no wonder FGM is what most obsess about.
the other links are also instructive reading.
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Simon21 #171.
"Those of us who have travelled in some of these areas and have seen how these people attempt to live with practically no resources know that the central and single issue here is, and always has been, poverty."
while I have never travelled outside Europe, I believe that this observation is spot-on.
it seems that "free trade" makes us all complicit - I read that, for instance, the conflict along the eastern border of RoCongo is all about some ore which is used in the manufacture of mobile phones. many of us, myself included, use a mobile, yet, people get killed and disposessed because of it.
people in different regions are poverty-stricken for a variety of reasons, but I cannot think of even one example where that has come about without European/US interference.
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Jr
I think it all really funny. a nation with minimal health care (the US) still finds money for this practice.
And frankly I am not against it, for adults. (note Muslims have it done later in life and get to chose ( all other pressures aside)) just against the hyped up bull that emanates from the US about it.
I object to spending public resources on what is in reality mutilation.
And sorry to put it that way but it is.Many may be offended by this but not Norway as you point out.
It really is an indication of control. and who has it.
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happylaze #182.
"I object to spending public resources on what is in reality mutilation."
in principle I agree (I don't pay taxes in the US), except where there is a medical need (about 1% of males apparently); in the UK it is not done by default, google "NHS circumcision" for the info.
when it comes to public spending, my "pet hate" is the money wasted on all things military. we're all people, we have only this one planet, and IMO we don't need nation states (must have read too much SciFi).
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183 Oh I couldn't give a toss about the foreskin issue when it compares to military expenditure.
I'm a raving lefty and think there should be loads more spending here in the states. and agree the money could come from the military.
but missile defence shields that no one knows works and no one wants are more important than giving people health care.
Apparently the rich are invested more in the bombs.
Who woulda thunk it.
You read 2000AD?
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happylaze #184.
D.R. & Quinch!
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happylaze #184.
"..there should be loads more spending here in the states. and agree the money could come from the military."
point I was trying to make though is: one planet, no nation states. then there'd be no need for any military spending, there'd be loads of other economies too.
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185 so you have read 2000AD .
I'm with you to some extent.but practically speaking. I'm sceptical.
I have a hard time agreeing with anyone though.
I go a copy of DR and Quinch's Totally awsome guide to life" but it went walk abouts. maybe I'll see it again.
One world is scary then one person has to get control.
America was founded like that and then we had GW. see what I mean. scary.
We have no aliens to escape in and I 'm not confident the warlock will save us.
;)
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178. At 7:58pm on 06 Apr 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
172, simon.
If I have a jaded view of reportage on the Middle East, it is justified. There is a general prejudice against the region which makes all reports questionable. That is why I only comment when I have direct information.
There was a feature article in today's New York Times about the Jews in Bahrein. In this case I was able to evaluate the article, which was fairly accurate, because I know the country, and even lived there briefly. When I was at a pan-Arab tourist expo abut four years ago I fell in with the Bahreini contingent. I asked one of the men if he knew Ezra Nonoo (pronounced noonoo) an old acquaintance of mine. He said Exra was dead, and that his son was a member of parliament. Ezra and his family are Jewish. A niece of his was made Ambassador to the U.S. last year. My Moslem friends did not cringe or curl their lips when they spoke of Ezra, or show any signs of anti-semitism. They spoke of him familiarly. Bahrein is a small island country and everybody knows everybody. The article did not explore the political situation in Bahrein, but I know that there is a nationalist group simmering below the surface that would like to depose the emir. "
Frankly I despair of any senssible reporting of the middle east. There seems to be a weird pervasive belief that all people in that area think the same, do not have different countries, are all moslem and go through their days chopping off limbs.
Yet Americans a et all would be the first to yowl if everyone presumed they were all fundamentalist christians with a strong desire to shoot up their neighbours.
Certainly no one would claim in their right mind that the political structures of Libya, Egypt or Syria, Arabia are exactly advanced. But ex-occupied countries often have problems establishing institutions - which is not helped as we see in Africa when the west uses bribery and threats to thwart democractic development.
Jews and moslems (and christians) lived together for centuries,not in complete amity, but the "inquisition," "special commisions" and the Aktiongruppen, were not moslem institutions.
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Trains are great. The old trains had more style.
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There are no international laws against being arrogant. If there was every European country would have a leader in jail.
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happylaze #187.
I do enjoy your take on things, there are so few likeminded.
you're right when saying "..practically speaking. I'm sceptical." since there's "..no aliens to escape in and I 'm not confident the warlock will save us."
as a species, we're almost certainly done -- faith, greed and selfishness will see to that. better for the planet though.
meanwhile, I watch John Stewart's "Daily Show" and vent my frustration on poor saps like britsaxon. what a life ;-(
signing off, G&T time.
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Hi,
I'm still waiting for an email to explain why 2 of my posts on this subject dated 4th April were removed.
It just seems like another case of mainstream media censorship to me.
It is indeed what YOU don't want to hear!
Cheers
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Newsreels Neil,
Possibly you should check the email address you used when you registered? The system is actually pretty good at sending out the notices, but if you used a different address than your usual.....
Just a thought.
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191 I heard that Lennon tune "Imagine" yesterday and thought of you.
I would be glad to imagine and live the dream in your direction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b7qaSxuZUg
I'm not normally a beetles fan, but credit where credits due.
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Ed sometimes they do take rather long to send my posts back.
but they have not kicked me off the blog;) ;)
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Jr,
- "as a species, we're almost certainly done -- faith, greed and selfishness will see to that. better for the planet though."
That makes at least two of us!;-)
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196, Hesiodo -
Excellent poem/polemic. Thanks.
Loved your "salaam, twit" on the other thread.)
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196 one and two makes three.
though to be fair there are some tribal people that had absolutely nothing to do with it. And for them I fear.
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Hesiodos #196 -- thanks.
happylaze #198 -- groundswell! only 6bn approx to go. ;-)
#194 -- can't warm to Beatles either but Lennon/Ono - different altogether, real people.
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199
6bn that's nothing .
better slow down then
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