More philosophical question about torture
The nice people at this website (whose torture discussion I linked to the other day) may be in further demand for advice following the news that more photos of abuse of prisoners are to be released by the Pentagon.
The issue is whether anyone has the right not to prosecute if it turns out that the abuses were policy as well as practice.
Barack Hussain Obama may need more than his middle name to assist in the project he has begun of wooing the sceptical/hostile world. Legal proceedings may be the only option - however much he had hoped to avoid them.
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I think you're right that legal proceedings may happen anyway Justin.
Paul Krugman makes the point that Obama's excuse that he's too busy to deal with looking at Bush's administration is just that, an excuse.
In reality it's the justice department that deals with all this, and there's no reason why it should take up any of his time or Treasury Secretary Geithner's time.
He's not been getting any bipartisanship from the Republicans thus far- so why worry about losing what you've never had?
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By all means prosecute. And at the same time prosecute all those members of government involved in taking gifts, influence peddling, etc. That should make for a smaller government. Let's do it.
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It is an interesting concept: The USA as originator of its own downfall!
Torture is wrong and must be condemned; torturers are wrong and must be prosecuted; the tortured deserve redress.
Then again, in Baghdad over the last couple of days 100+ Human lives were brutally cut-short and 200+ Humans were hideously injured by minds every bit as dark and obsessive as those of alleged 'torturers', but, as the wicked perpetrators died with their innocent victims no condemnation of note is possible, still less arrest, prosecution and sentencing, but, the victims of the cruelty remain.
The USA will answer to the court of Humanity, but, will anyone recall the Baghdad suicide bombers for more than this week, except survivors?
The most recent statistics suggest as many as 87,000 Iraqis have died since 2004 from attacks perpetrated by fellow Iraqis!
Yet, it is the USA that will put itself on trial: Of course all sorts of sophisticated arguments can be produced about how it was the USA that brought about the catastrophic conditions in which suicide bombers are almost the norm. However, if the torture of Humans by Humans is a crime worthy of the full rigour of the Law then surely nothing excuses the suicide bomber from equal treatment on behalf of their victims?
How to establish a fair trial for the dead suicide?
Perhaps a start could be made by where possible Naming and Shaming and from there moving on to leading members of Shia and Sunni Islam Publicly declaring these vicious self-sacrificers are definitely not heading for whatever heaven they imagine is out there and that their so-called 'submission to God' is not recognised by any part of Islam.
All that of course would involve Islam in a Public acceptance of responsibility for people who claim/believe they are behaving as they do on behalf of it - - - i.e. as if they were a uniformed 'torturer' before a Court of Law claiming they did it for their Nation - - - Afterall, what is good for Humanity applies to all humanity, doesn't it?
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I do not think it is the job of President Obama, our Chief Executive, to run around like 'Snoopy, The CSI Hound' hunting for clues and evidence to bring against the prior administration. It is the job of the Justice Department and of Congress, to investigate, gather evidence and ultimately prosecute. This is called separation of powers, checks and balances, which had become somewhat blurred during the previous eight years! Obama will stand back and let the DOJ do its job. That is what a competent manager does.
I believe that ultimately we will have prosecutions. When and who will be the interesting question.
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I fear if investigations are initiated (as, morally, they should), they'll reveal the scale of the abuse. Once you've implicated Bush, Cheney, Rice, Yoo and Bybee, as well as a plethora of CIA officials and agents, in okay'ing and carrying out torture, what do you do then? Prosecute them all? HAH. I doubt America would survive that, or that it would ever be attempted. Any justice served would be piecemeal and slow and pathetic.
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3, ikamaskeip
Good point, and very well said.
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ref #1
First it is a stretch to call the actions torture.
Paul Krugman like most of the NYT has an irrational hatread for the Bush administation, he has no credbility.
Why wont the Obama administration release the documents showing the interogation stopped a major attack for Los Angeles? Or the attempt to destroy the Brooklyn Bridge.
And will Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid who were fully briefed and made no objection be prosecuted.
Justin why are far great Human rights violation in this hemisphere ignored by the BBC?
Let's be honest this is just the partsian left obeying their master George Soros.
I thank the people who intergogated the terrorists.
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Ask John Mc Cain if he gives any useful information to the viet when he was tortured. Ask the US war veterans did they give any useful information to the viets when tortured.
The torture is CIA agent wanting revenge and wanting to appear to do something. The world is a more dangerous place because of the Bush/Dick approved torture.
One day when your child disappear from the surface of earth for a few years just because of race and going to iraq before. Then the Child returned, tortured and forever different. Tell me then it is okay to torture an potential innocent just in case your child might be a terrorist.
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4, aqua -
You're right, this is not the job of the president. If it were we would not need a Justice Department.
As for those who have said on other threads and will probably say again on this one that we should look to the future and not bother about what's past, would you say that since 9/11 is so in the past that we should forget about bin Laden? Perhaps Bush was thinking of his own future when he said bin Laden was no longer of any importance. Precedence and all that.
I find this a puzzling argument, since every crime that has ever been committed is in the past by the time it is investigated and those responsible brought to justice. I was extremely disappointed in Obama for using this argument.
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To#7 Magickirin
The proposed attack on Los Angeles was foiled, I believe, almost a full year before the prisoner in question was tortured.
I think as more and more information is revealed it may be shown that torture was utilized to get prisoners to confess connections between Iraq and 9/11, in order to justify the war.
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@MagicKirin Paul Krugman as a Nobel Prize winner, who was also one of the few Americans in public life to stand up and be counted at a time when it was not considered polite to comment on the Emperor's new clothes, is not devoid of credibility. Leaving aside your ad hominem argument, his NYT column from yesterday nails it. The reason why the law should take due process is because America, the leader of the free world, stands for something, ad that something quite simply does not include torture. The rule of law is at times an inconvenient principal, but without it, all your pride in your democracy rings very hollow.
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MagicKirin wrote:
"First it is a stretch to call the actions torture."
Christopher Hitchens would disagree
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/hitchens200808
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To#9 Bere54
President Obama may say whatever he chooses but gathering evidence and prosecution will be up to Congress and the DOJ. This rot runs from the bottom to the top and must be rooted out, exposed for what it is and prosecuted. President Obama may speak his thoughts and may also issue pardons but prosecution is not up to him. I think he is happy to have it this way. He has enough other things to do.
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"Barack Hussain Obama may need more than his middle name to assist in the project he has begun of wooing the sceptical/hostile world. "
If you really must use his full name, at least have the courtesy to spell it correctly: Barack Hussein Obama.
"more photos of abuse of prisoners are to be released by the Pentagon."
I have read elsewhere that these are not as grim as those of Abu Grave/Ghraib. They supposedly show a pattern of behaviour which is not to be tolerated.
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ref #11
First the Nobel Prize lost credibility years ago, among the winners are Kofi annan who presided over the most corrupt tenure of the U.N, terrorist appeaser Jimmy Carter, Al Gore for environmentaly forcasts proven wrong.
The way you when a non hard science Nobel prize bash Bush.
Poor litttle terrorist got trated to a hazing ritual at VMI
Let worry about major human rights violations.
I'll take O'rielley and Fox News over a fraud like Krugman and the NYT anytime
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11. TeaMilkNoSugar wrote:
@MagicKirin Paul Krugman was a Nobel Prize winner...
That's no recommendation. So were Yasser Arafat and Desmond Tutu.
Very often the Nobel has little to do with merit and much to do with the polished political correctness that the tunnel-visioned comrades of the left so love to perpetuate.
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Some may know of this example :
A woman was near death from a special kind of cancer. There was one drug that the doctors thought might save her. It was a special form of radium that only one chemist in the country imported exclusively from overseas and he happened to be in same city. The chemist was charging ten times what the drug cost him to buy. The sick woman’s husband, Heinz, went to everyone he knew to borrow the money, but he could only get together half of what it would cost. He told the chemist that his wife was dying and asked him to sell it cheaper or let him pay later. But the chemist insisted the full price must be paid. So Heinz got desperate and broke into the chemist's store to steal the drug for his wife.
Who is right and wrong? Why or why not are they right or wrong?
One of Heinz's neighbours saw him break in to the chemists.
What should she do and why?
Another question to ponder will follow.
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#15. MagicKirin: "I'll take O'rielley and Fox News over a fraud like Krugman and the NYT anytime"
As if we didn't know already, that speaks volumes about your attitude, falling into lockstep with those who would denigrate the President so soon and so loudly. Rush Limbaugh would be proud of you.
"The way you when a non hard science Nobel prize bash Bush."
It's bad enough that most of the time you can't spell, but you've lost me completely with that jumbled sentence.
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#3 - yes something must be done to soften the cruelty of religious extremism - from strange hate rants to suicide bombers to the Spanish inquisition to Mayan human sacrifice - oh what man does in the names of his gods.
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17, Richard -
A very interesting moral dilemma. My view is that because the chemist was acting immorally, it was morally acceptable for Heinz to break into the chemist's shop. The neighbor would be morally correct not to rat on him. BUT, if Heinz, in the course of his break-in, had beaten the chemist to a pulp, that would be a whole different matter. Even if the only way he could save his wife was to beat the chemist to a pulp, that would not be moral and the neighbor should report him. But that's just my opinion. If I were the neighbor and the only "crime" was the break-in, I would not report him.
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#17 - answer - The neighbor converted Heinz to a religion that refuses medical treatment, he put back the drug, went home, lit some candles, played some soft music and his wife died peacefully and with grace. At that point they were all right.
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#7 "an irrational hatred for the Bush administation"
Is there such a thing?
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In my opinion, the Obama Administration made a mistake in bringing such a controversial and divisive issue back to light. What we need at this time is a clear vision of the future and national unity to help us overcome the economic woes that continue to produce massive layoffs and widespread bankruptcies.
Unfortunately, it is now too late to backtrack. The Justice Department has no choice but to proceed with the investigation and prosecute those guilty of human rights abuses. It doesn't matter whether or not we managed to extract information that may have, allegedly, prevented additional attacks against the USA; the fact is that torture is considered a crime and that it violates both national and international laws.
The likely outcome, however, is that we may end up with an Oliver North type solution with relatively low ranking government officials and the lawyers that offered opinions being held accountable for the policies and actions put forth and supported by President Bush and VP Cheney.
This issue is bound to energize a demoralized GOP, will infuriate conservatives, and if it is mishandled it may affect President Obama's credibility and popularity.
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To#17 Richardsm and #20 Bere54
That story has been greatly simplified here. I believe it was more complex and originally developed in the 1950's by psychologists to test the moral and ethical differences between boys and girls. I am working on only my memory here, so may not have all the facts. I am sure someone will enlighten me if I am incorrect.
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Continued from post # 17
Here's another couple of questions to consider:
1) In the city, security agents tailing a suspected bomb planter carrying a bag, lose sight of their target for fifteen minutes. When sighted again, there's no bag. They capture and cuff their target. They have no idea where the bag is. The bomb planter refuses to speak. In the past, some of the explosive devices planted have failed to detonate.
What should the security services do with the suspect and why?
2) In the city, security agents tailing a suspected bomb planter wearing a balaclava hat, a big coat and carrying a bag, lose sight of their target for fifteen minutes. They spot their target again without the bag, disappearing down the steps into the underground system. When out of sight, the suspected bomb planter discards the hat and coat just before turning the corner and joining the waiting crowd on the station. The security services quickly seal off the station, call for back up and prevent any train stopping.
They have no idea who the bomb planter is, but is one of the crowd they have sealed off on the station. In the past, some of the explosive devices planted have failed to detonate.
What should the security services do with the suspects and why?
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Ref post # 24 aquarizonagal
Yes indeed. There have been many variations.
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To#26 Richardsm
If my memory also serves me correctly, the results were must interesting as well as the later research related to this topic.
And your point here is....?
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Many of you keep calling these acts torture. I have previously drawn a distinction between what is torture and what is not. That's because there is one under international law. If you are going to prosecute someone for torture, you need actual evidence which rises to the level of what is torture, as defined by international law dealing with torture. Based on what we know, I do not believe these acts rise to that level. Per the convention below, there is an implied scale to what is considered cruel punishment/treatment vs torture.
UN CONVENTION AGAINST TORTURE
and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading
Treatment or Punishment
Article 1:
For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person....
Article 16:
Each State Party shall undertake to prevent in any territory under its jurisdiction other acts of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment which do not amount to torture as defined in article 1...
The definition of what is severe pain and punishment must be addressed in order for these acts to be prosecuted under article 1. If the conditions pertaining to torture are not me per Article 1, it seems possible that an argument can be made under Article 16. However, the definition of what is considered cruel punishment is also open to legal debate.
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Did you guys see that old naked guy run by?
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"Barack Hussain Obama may need more than his middle name to assist in the project he has begun of wooing the sceptical/hostile world. Legal proceedings may be the only option - however much he had hoped to avoid them."
I too, like 'Bere54, am furious that Obama seemed to initially avoid and even at times apologize for the Bush administration's actions. But what's more, I honestly don't understand why on earth he would!! He was elected on the mantra of "change," a clean slate, to uphold our values once again, to rid the nation of the nasty Republicans in power. So why isn't he going after the Republicans like nobody's business? Isn't that supposed to be part of the return to American "values and ideals?" It really comes down to this. Do we live out our morals or do we not? Do we, who go around the world preaching about how wonderful we are and what a "beacon of hope" we are and how everyone should adhere to the rule of law, adhere ourselves to the rule of law or do we not? Are we hypocrits or are we not? What does Barack Hussain Obama want our nation to be? How does he want the world to see us? As the popular cheerleader or the unwanted stupid geek? And one more note on this subject, you all can bet your bottom dollar that if it was Clinton who had commited and ordered these wrechid acts to take place, that Bush would pursue Clinton's prosicution and imprisonment like a starved man after food, so why isn't Obama doing the same? You can also bet that (assuming another western nation was naive enough, and stupid enough, to reduce itself to torture,) that its wrongdoers would be swiftly brought to justice, so why aren't ours? What's so special about us that we get to dictate law but not live up to it? Has this notion of "American exceptionalism" poisoned our sense of fairness and right and wrong this badly already?
And with the revelation of this disdainful information, Barack Hussain Obama can kiss his project of wooing the sceptical/hostile world goodbye. This just confirms what has always been known, but denied by most Americans. And it is that the world has never had much fondness for American foreign policy in the first place, but the presidency of George Walker Bush has destroyed any hope of the world truely unconditionally liking us ever again. Obama, bless his heart, tryed awfully hard to bring that warm feeling and good will back, probably harder than most of his predecessors. And it looked for a while that he might have been getting ready to harvist the fruits of his labor. But alas, it was not to be. The release of these memmos, and the torant of subssiquent information afterward that seems unstoppable now, has shot down any chances of the United States of America being seen as anything more than a flaming hypocrit of the highest order by the world's citizenry anymore. And what makes it all the worse, of course, is the pompus attitude of us of proclaiming to always stand for, and do the right thing. Well our chickens are coming home to roost, the world is watching with horer and delight, and our international reputation, when the (God willing) arrests of Richard Cheney and George Bush take place, will be layed to rest for the last time.
RIP
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#15
Magic,
QED the problem the Republicans have. Listen to what you want to hear and only what you want to hear. Repeat insinuations so long as they support your view. The fact that the plot in question was foiled prior to Mr Mohammed being captured, let alone tortured, does rather blow holes in the suggestion that torture was effective.
Then again we could try to answer the question that was asked, whether anyone has the right not to prosecute.
The answer to this is not really philosophical at all. As an officer of the court, any prosecutor is legally and ethically obliged to prosecute as long as there is a reasonable probability of conviction.
Lawyer Sam
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25, Richard -
In your scenario #2, how could they do anything other than let everyone out of the station and hope that if in fact there had been a bomb, it fails to detonate? I don't see any other way out of that one. Well, I suppose they could torture everyone until they all confess to having placed a bomb and then run all over the city checking out all the torture-induced "confessions." That would be real effective, wouldn't it?
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#17
Richard,
We are born into a fallen world and everyone is a sinner. All are wrong and can only be saved through the light of Jesus Christ, our Savior.
Born again Sam
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#25
Richard,
The security services should ask the suspect to open their heart to the love of Jesus Christ and confess their sins.
Born Again Sam Again
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#28
Rodidog,
In this case the governing law is definined in the Constitution, more specifically the Bill of Rights and more specifically still the 4th and 8th Amendments.
All that UN stuff is irrelevant.
Constitutional Sam
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As an American, I feel my nation has no chioce. We have to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law. If we do not prosecute, it renders the rule of law meaningless. It would also make us appears as hypocrits. After all we have prosecuted other countries for the same criminal offenses. What would it mean if we didn't live up to the standards we espouse for other nations?
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#16
Two,
How can you possibly have an issue with Dessie? And he looks terrific in purple, a not inconsiderable feat.
You'll be attacking Nelson Mandela and the Wombles as pinko leftie environmental terrorists next.
Did anyone else here ever notice that Madam Cholet was the only girl Womble? A french girl living with 6 burly lads. Something strange going on there.
Curious Sam
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#17 Richard_SM,
Heinz did the right thing, however, Heinz needs to stand for his crime of theft. The neighbor has the more difficult choice.
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36, AmericanSportFan -
Do we ever really live up to the standards we espouse for other nations? I mean, look at our elections. All that purging of perfectly eligible voters, malfunctioning machines, flyers giving people misinformation about where to vote, all at a time we were espousing democracy and free and fair elections in Iraq and Afghanistan. What a joke.
(Plus there's that little fact, in national elections, that if you live in a state where the majority always votes otherwise than you do, your vote is taken away and given to the person you didn't vote for. How free. How fair.)
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#25 Richard_SM
1. They try to evacuate the building, call the bomb squad, and hope it's another dud. It might already be to late to do anything else.
2. Same as number one, with the addition of investigating all present in hopes of finding the likely suspect.
Will you be providing the results of our profile later?
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To#29 Happylaze
Yes, I did!
However, I told no one and covered it up with a lot of hocus pocus and political rhetoric.
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If the confessions extracted from terrorist suspects in Gitmo and other prisons were so wonderful, why did they fail to prevents the awful bombings in Madrid, London, Bali and so many other places?
Are the supporters of "enhanced interrogation techniques" supportive of similar techniques being applied on American prisoners in the future? Are the governments of China and Cuba going to be exonerated for using similar techniques?
I think people should listen to what Sen. John McCain is saying on this subject before they trivialize or minimize the importance of what happened the past few years.
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#15 & #16 So the Nobel Prize is meaningless? Sorry I had forgotten the contempt you rightwingers have for learning and academia. Perhaps what you should have said is that Paul Krugman has no credibility for those like us on the extreme right. I'll agree with that, and it certainly helps with your tunnel vision, if you can dismiss him thus. It saves you having to consider his argument, which is less easy to bat away.
#23 "This issue is bound to energize a demoralized GOP, will infuriate conservatives, and if it is mishandled it may affect President Obama's credibility and popularity."
Aren't they already quite hysterical?
http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=223862&title=Baracknophobia---Obey
The last time there was a scandal of similar magnitude, Watergate, it was Sam Ervin's Watergate committee that lanced that boil, and restored one's faith in America as a great nation. The evils perpetrated by the last administration are a cancer that will continue to eat into the ideals that underpin America and American self respect, if this does not come under proper public judicial scrutiny.
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O is following the same sort of reconciliation thought that served S africa so well.
try to be nice to your foe don't make them your enemy.
there's a little difference there.
problem is the die hards should be expelled for treason and that is awkward. there are lots of them armed and they make threatening noises all the time.
I think he will give them a chance but has his eye on them. if they like last years rooster wants to try to get all territorial I think he will be ready to give them a boot.
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41 Aqua , you're meant to offer him a towel .;)
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43 two sugars in mine please
"Aren't they already quite hysterical? "
I think their mantra is " you ain't seen nothing yet"
unfortunately.
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Well now our fearless leader has really gone and done it. Opened up a can of worms that he will never be able to close up again. The genie is out of the bottle. It's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. If he prosecutes, he will risk destroying the intelligence infrastructure that protects the security of the country he's sworn to defend. And if he doesn't, he risks being in violation of international treaties and looking like a hypocrite. Didn't he ever hear of don't ask, don't tell? Some lawyer he turned out to be. I wouldn't hire him to fix a traffic ticket. "Obama Melodrama." A thrill a minute. What does he do for an encore, run the banks and the automobile industry from the Oval Office too? Three months down, forty-five months to go if he serves out his full term in office. It will be decades before America recovers from damage that is being done by this administration. How long before talk of impeachment begins to be heard and gain momentum? What a mistake.
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Before you know it, America's liberals will have us putting up al Qaeda captives as guests in the Waldorf Astoria...if al Qaeda doesn't blow it up first.
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To#45 Happylaze
How could I do that?
He thinks he is wearing a very fine suit. Armani, perhaps?
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I grew up during the 2nd world war having lost my two year old sister to tubercular meningitis.
I was always so sure that what we as Brits was Right.
In hospital in my twenties with a leukemia scare, (an avid reader) I read two books on the Suez crisis of the 1950"s
I realised that what I had been given by the news at that time, bore no ressemblence to what I was now reading. I had grown up in a country with massive former power.
What I am seeing now in the States is hopefully the same realisation that they can do the same dumb things.
I worry that any prosecution could tear the country apart
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Re 39
I realize what you are saying about elections. I understand that our system is far from perfect, but that doesn't mean we can not at least try to live up to those ideas. Otherwise, why bother espousing those ideas.
Having said that, on to the latest news on the Bush decision to engage in torture.
Apparently, the white house decide to start using "enhanced interogation techniques" in 2001. Long before they had capture anyone with affiliation Al Quieda. In addition, in July of 2002, All four branches of the military (The Army, Navy, Airforce, and Marines) issued memos protesting the administrations decision to use torture. In those memos they clear state that any information garnered would be suspect and use of such methods would be in Violation of both the Unform Code of Military Justice and the US Penal Code. Simply put, the Administration had been adviced that what it was doing was illegal and chose to do it anyway.
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49 then he's a fake.
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If you think Aqua and I make no sense then try reading one of M A posts.
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Moral question. We know that all Republicans that voted for bush Twice are evil in their hearts, should we
A
round them up and throw them in open prisons.
(trade them for gaza citizens maybe)
Or
B
save money and fuel and use bullets.
Theirs.
Just asking a question, after all it seems any sick thought is OK for the BBC to dwell on.
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50, canadacold: "I worry that any prosecution could tear the country apart"
Sometimes you have to tear something apart in order to rebuild it into something better.
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#45
Jack,
She's too busy watching.
Peeping Sam
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I'm curious to know what methods the KGB and their counterparts in China and North Korea use and which of thir operatives will be prosecuted.
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#48
Marcus,
Ridiculous again. The Waldorf is always full of Euro Trash listening to Kraftwerk and being annoying in the hopelessly inadequate facilities (for a hotel of that size).
The only person dumb enough to stay there and work in New York was John Bolton. And we know how successful and what a great use of taxpayer moeny that was.
BTW, if you bump into him take a close look and see if you think he dyes his moustache. It is shockingly consistent in color in the flesh.
Unlike your average womble.
Hilton Honors Sam
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#58
Dude,
The KGB was disbanded in 1991. They don't do anything anymore. Except maybe sit around drinking vodka alone in their state trailers thinking about the good old days.
Remind you of anyone?
Historian Sam
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#57
Poor Marcus,
Your understanding of European Law is almost as limited as your knowledge of American legal practices. Pretrty shocking for someone who knows so muchabout cheese.
Parliament members do not hold executive positions, unless they are part of the Cabinet in the nation in question. This would only apply to Western Europe, in the East and former East all bets are off.
You would have to prove, without reasonable doubt, that a minister gave direction to commit a certain act. There is no 'should have known' acid test, you made it up. In fact the only thing a Member of Parliament can really be prosecuted for is lying to parliament. You made it up (no surprises there).
Here's the kicker. In Europe Governments can classify a document for a fixed period. A subsequent Government cannot declassify it. No evidence available until no one cares. 25 or 40 years is typical.
So we'll tear ourselves apart for a few weeks and kill a few folks political careers (Condi Rice looks pretty messed up right now) but the nation will move on when Chrysler files Chapter 11 in a few weeks.
The Republicans must wish they were European now . . .
Sleep well, dear friend,
Amused Sam
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#28. rodidog: "Many of you keep calling these acts torture. I have previously drawn a distinction between what is torture and what is not."
So who elected you King of the World?
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I have to say that I'm a bit concerned over this country's future, if we proceed. I agree with every single poster in the last 3 posts on this subject, that a. these acts were illegal, b. they were highly immoral, and c. we have to be a civil society and nation of law and justice.
But what will the cost be? The divisiveness of the past decade only bodes ill for our stability... I don't think this could ever lead to civil unrest, but I do think that this will probably be seen as "retribution," by those who either don't want to deal with facts, or who don't care about laws and justice. If so, I could see further devolution into tit-for-tat prosecutions after each election. I'm troubled at the thought of leaving this unpunished, and troubled at the thought of the mouths using this to further the gap between left and right, and the resultant escalation of the already intolerable partisanship.
A house divided against itself cannot stand.
Someone in one of the earlier posts recommended a truth and reconciliation commission, much like South Africa's. Perhaps there is wisdom in moderation?
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#62
David,
That was me. My Bad.
Sorry.
Sad Sam
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ST68 1/2
"Here's the kicker. In Europe Governments can classify a document for a fixed period. A subsequent Government cannot declassify it. No evidence available until no one cares. 25 or 40 years is typical."
So European law would thwart subpoenas for records in trials at the Hague ICC. How convenient. Which Europeans would win, the prosecutors or the defendants? What if they are one and the same?
The Waldorf Astoria is intersting. Recently an entire long forgotten underground railway station beneath it was discovered. It had been built specifically for Franklin Roosevelt when he was President. When he visited New York City, his special Presidental train would stop at this station just a few thousand feet from Grand Central Statiion. He was able to disembark the train out of public view and take a private elevator to his Presidential suite. This way he avoided photographers who could have photographed him in his wheel chair, something he forbade. All this of course at taxpayer expense.
The KGB still exists. Only its name has changed. I think they've switched from Ricin to Polonium for their executions. It's more...high tech.
The reason I know something about cheese is because I lived in Europe. It's the cheesiest place in the world. If you don't think so, ask the French. They are proud of it. The other rats like it too.
So you think the Europeans will escape prosecution for their part in the torture of detainees. We'll see. If I were a Republican or in the Bush administration and was involved and I was prosecuted, I'd name names of Europeans just to humiliate the Obama administration. I have a hunch far worse is in the offing but I don't know what.
Global warming continues unabated, the world's economy continues to implode despite optimists whistling past the graveyard, and the Obama administration preoccupies itself with torture of prisoners that is history. Obama fiddled while America burned.
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Many years ago I had my doubts about dessie. I have changed my mind. I am very impressed.
I saw his namesake race at Kempton some years ago, and a tall guy was in front of us. He very thoughtfully looked behind, saw my rather short mother, and switched places. Paxman for the Nobel Politeness prize!
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DC, the thing about kings is they don't need to be elected. Haven't you noticed?
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#33. SamTyler1969: "We are born into a fallen world and everyone is a sinner. All are wrong and can only be saved through the light of Jesus Christ, our Savior."
Say it ain't so, Sam. I suggest that should be signed Satirical Sam.
48. MarcusAureliusII: "Before you know it, America's liberals will have us putting up al Qaeda captives as guests in the Waldorf Astoria."
Apparently you've never been there, since there is an '=' between Waldorf and Astoria
#59. SamTyler1969: "The Waldorf is always full of Euro Trash listening to Kraftwerk and being annoying in the hopelessly inadequate facilities (for a hotel of that size)."
Next time you really must stay in the Towers section, not downstairs! And Bolton's mustache - it's bleached of course, no doubt about it.
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#65
Marcus,
Your ignorance is hilarious. Especially for a Frenchy.
Yes, secrecy classifications thwart subpoenas, just as they do in the US. The difference is there is no right for a future government to declassify materials without a vote, which in turn declassifies the document. most European countries have a system which protects intelligence. Those that do not don't need one.
LOL on the KGB. Gosh gee, we still have Roman Legions. I mean, armies and stuff. They wear skirts and follow the same rules. Sort of. So the Roman Legions still exist.
Umm. No. The KGB has been dead for 18 years. You really have to catch up and understand at least the 1990's. The 21st century would be great, but small steps.
The idea of a US politician naming their Euro counterparts as guilty is hilarious. 'Oh, Tony said it was OK. He helped. So I'm not a scumbag. Because Tony is a nice guy,everyone agrees. Umm used to. Please don't lock me up'
As Spongebob would say:
Baaaahhhhhh Baaaahhhhhhh
LOL Sam
PS I do feel sorry for you. Your world changed, no way you will get a decent job again. You have been replaced. The Europeans figured how to make that economic model work way before the US, their demographics forced them to.
So you drive your car service by day, and rant on the internet at night. Sad really, but it had to happen to someone.
Is Newark busy? I never fly through there.
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#2. Spot on. I can only hope we find someone honest enough to do that.
#5. "Let Justice be done, though the heavens fall." America will survive. (And if someone secedes due to this, let them go. It will be a blot on their name forever.
#7. Prosecute Pelosi and Reed? OF COURSE!!! Kick them all out! Harman too! As for Soros, he did help bring in the torturers in Georgia...
#10. You beat me to it...
#23, That only assumes that there can be a coverup like Reagan, Bush and the Congressional Republicans did. (You are leaving out Balthasar Garzon...) Clinton did help with that, too, by not opening all the files or providing any aid to Lawrence Walsh. Obama, sadly may do the same thing. However, the Republicans are on the ropes for now...and the American people are firmly in favor of an investigation. (Though their allies in the media may try and beat things into the people...)
#35. Actually, Article 6 of the Constitution says, "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."
#57. YES! Kick out Tony Blair! (Along with Richard Dawkins, he's my least favorite Brit.) If Europeans break the law, they deserve to be out...
#59. Uh, you do know that Hilton owns the Waldorf, right? (I may want to go there to hear Kraftwerk...if I had money...)
One more thing. I'm no fan of George Bush, but one thing he did FOR Bill Clinton upset me. He didn't do anything to investigate him. Clinton broke the law several times. (Including lying about Iraq's WMD...in 1998...) Bush did nothing to go after him. (In fact, when the Bush DoJ attempted to conceal certain materials from the Republicans in Congress using Executive Privilege*, Congressman Dan Burton (R-IN) said to a DoJ official, "You tell the president there's going to be war between the president and this committee...We've got a dictatorial president and a Justice Department that does not want Congress involved.") Power tends to protect itself, which explains why Obama isn't going after Bush.
* Privilege comes from "privi" (Private) and "lege" (Law). Remember that... Executive Privilege means above the law.
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#68
David,
The Towers sucks, it is modern plastic crapismo stuck on top of the Waldorf with a nice wood veneer glued on. The Towers is the problem, ramming extra guests into communal space that cannot cope and with too few staff to provide the service needed for a hotel in that range.
If forced, I would generally stay in the regular Waldorf suites, they have more character (the bathrooms are interesting, at the least). But given a choice the St Reg is the way to go. Better location too, unless you want to hang with the cool folks at the W Lex.Service is way above.
Starwood Sam
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Ahem, ahem. Mister Canard know-it-all
"Apparently you've never been there, since there is an '=' between Waldorf and Astoria"
http://www1.hilton.com/ts/en_US/landing/WA_site_selection.html?WT.srch=1
I was born in New York City. I was raised in New York City. There has never been an '=' in between Waldorf and Astoria since I ever heard of it. Canard, you are no New Yorker. You've been in the Florida sun too long. Your Northern genes make you unsuited for such exposure except for infrequent brief periods. Take my advice, stay in the shade or indoors more often. You're running a risk of an even worse case of brain fever. Leave sunbathing for those who can survive it.
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This article in the Washington Post highlights the dichotomy surrounding
the release of the documents related to interrogation techniques.
As the article indicates, the Obama administration may have had little
recourse because of leaks.
I believe that most people reading Justin's blog are aware of my opposition
to torture, but the timing of the affair could derail the Obama administration
and the Democrats more effectively than any opposition party tactics, just by
diverting public attention from other pressing matters.
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Sam, DC, does the Waldorf have an indoor pool, sauna, and hot tub?
If yes, then for a good rate I could hum along with the Euro Trash.
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You guys make the Waldorf sound like a slum. I'll go hang out in the Union
League, where Amero-Trash like myself are always welcome.
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73. guns.
Your last paragraph is my stance precisely.
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#70
Orville,
Yes I know the Waldorf is a Hilton brand hotel, just like the Hotel cavalieri in rome. Except the Cavalieri does not suck. Hence the signature on that post. The Waldorf sucks except for being close to a good steak place.
On the constitution, the 6th amendment is clear but any trial on the subject in question would be based on the constritution itself, not any 'binding' documents.
Negotiator Sam
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#74
Guns,
I don't swim, folks call Greenpeace when I put on speedo's.
They totally have a gym and a spa.
Frankly, if you want to spend that kind of money check in to the St Regis and enjoy the service you are charged for.
Personally I like the smaller Hiltons in town, Times squareand the Millenium.
But that's just me.
Guest Points Sam
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#72. MarcusAureliusII: "I was born in New York City. I was raised in New York City. There has never been an '=' in between Waldorf and Astoria since I ever heard of it."
Try your link again and you will clearly see an equal sign (=) rather than a hyphen between the two words. You can't have ever been in that part of Manhattan since you've not noticed it - it's even trademarked.
#71. SamTyler1969: "The Towers is the problem, ramming extra guests into communal space that cannot cope and with too few staff to provide the service needed for a hotel in that range."
It's not bothered me or, apparently, those who are resident there. But perhaps we have different tastes.
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#72
Marcus,
Born in NYC, Raised in NYC?
And yet you can't see the '=' in the logo on the very site you just linked to? You didn;t let the flash play out to the logo with 'Waldorf=Astoria'? A logo that comes from the 1930's move of the Waldorf to the Astoria building? Can you read English?
If you are a New Yorker then clearly not one of substance. Anyone of even a middle mangement layer would surely have been invited to the Waldorf for a meeting or two. One who claims to be a leading engineer and true American would surely have given enough to charity to attend a charity gala.
Even a limo driver would have been inside and seen . . . Scratch that. An Algerian french limo driver living in a NJ trailer would be ignorant of the Waldoft's full name and logo. I recant. He would know a lot about cheese though.
Sad Sam
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#79
David,
Clearly. But we can agree to differ. I prefer high touch hotels for that price, which the Waldorf is unable to provide. I sneak over the road to the W Lex for cocktails. Which is ironic, I should just stay there.
That said, clearly we have both actually been there. unlike others.
Poor guy. What an ass.
Sad Sam
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All patiotic, emotional, and political issues aside:
Obviously, enough evidence has been accumulated to warrant an investigation. If the investigation reveals that there is "reasonable cause" to prosecute, then a prosecution MUST take place. It is then up to our system of jurisprudence to conduct a fair trial based on facts presented and argued by both sides under the Articles and Amendments of the Constitution of The United States of America. That document is the basis of our nation.
Until then; there is a presumption of innocence. "We the people..." can have our own judgements based upon...whatever we like. It is our jurisprudence system that is now on trial as much as those who prosecute and defend. If our jurisprudence system fails to administer justice, it leaves us without laws.
"We the people..." need to support our system of justice, or our nation will perish with our laws.
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25. At 00:44am on 25 Apr 2009, Richard_SM wrote:
"What should the security services do with the suspect and why?"
Hope fervently that people have been taking note of the posters we have everywhere that tell them to "report suspicious packages" and someone spots it before it goes bang. And in (2) evacuate the tube. . .(and we all groan and moan as we discover all the buses are full, there are no taxis, and we haven't got our A-Z to work out how to get where we were going from the tube station we've never seen from the surface before . . .)
(Been there, done that, you see.)
Then police collect said explosive package, DNA, and get ready for a trial.
OK? (The snag is that sadly some people, as we have learnt, are willing to commit suicide, so in some circumstances neither of your two scenarios is as likely to arise now as it once was.) And before the more rabid get on the bandwagon and start suggesting thumbscrews, why? In purely practical terms, disregarding the moral or legal objections, there wouldn't be time.
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61. At 03:06am on 25 Apr 2009, SamTyler1969 wrote:
"#57
Poor Marcus"
I refuse to address him directly, but as usual he is wrong.
An inquiry has already begun by the Attorney General in the UK. However, I would doubt very much that anyone in MI5 or MI6, let alone a senior civil servant or minister is likely to have left any record condoning torture, let alone actually asking for it.
And while government papers are usually embargoed for periods from 25 up to 100 years, they can sometimes (and have been) released earlier. It does not prevent evidence being given to a UK court (though that might hear it in camera so it didn't become public) or an international tribunal.
I'm so fed up with Marcus and his ilk offering up nonsense with such bigoted assurance. Can't we agree he's toast? (without cheese, of course.)
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57. At 02:43am on 25 Apr 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"The recently released GITMO captive who returned to Britain. . ."
I've been waiting for this.
For very obvious reasons, I am not going to quote the whole sentence. The person you refer to has not been charged in Britain with any offence, nor is standing trial. You have committed a libel, I believe.
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Photographs. Photographs.
Doesn't anyone else find the very existence of photographs depressing? It shows that either, the people who took them believed there was nothing shameful about what they were doing, and it was sanctioned; or they were so morally bankrupt they didn't care. How many people have been wandering about US bases, Virginia, or Washington listening happily to recordings of screams on their iPods?
And now we will have people slavering over the pictures for weeks. It's pornography, really. They don't need to be published everywhere; to establish their existence, the location in which they were taken, and the identities of those present, is sufficient until there is a trial, surely? All else is prurience.
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O.K., not being a New Yorker, I still can't find the pool at the W=A.
And, my company is not going public anytime soon, so it is very unlikely
that I shall be invited there.
All I can find on the web is a site describing the spa. A spa is not
a pool. A spa is what your girlfriend thinks that you want on your birthday.
Somehow, women don't seem to understand that men don't want to smell like
a flower garden, that mammalian sex is not like pollination, does
not involve insects, and that when we talk about the birds and the bees
that we are not really talking about avians and apoidea.
So, where is the pool?
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80. At 05:20am on 25 Apr 2009, SamTyler1969 wrote:
#72
Marcus,
Born in NYC, Raised in NYC?
I demand he makes his birth certificate public.
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britishish yes it is a little perverse the publishing of these photos.
Marcus truly a big fibber too.
can't keep a story straight.
keep it up you're doing well. ratchet 'll be around in a minute or two.
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I wonder if the UN willinvestigate the NATO bombing of Serbia? Or will it investigate the Russian FSB killing of a British citizen in London? Will it investigate Austria complicity in the murder of its resaistance during WWII? The list could go on how about the french action in Alegeria or is it is just special to go after Bush. If BHO opens this can of worms then maybe Pelosi and Clinton could be prosecuted becuase as leaders of the House and Senate, they were present at the intelligence briefing and they voted to authorize funds for Gitmo operation and CIA. Or did you libs conviently forget about their involvement? I have less issue with libs in the UK, becuase they are institutionalized by the british system, but libs in amerika are just out of touch with people that work and pay taxes. Oh I forgot they don't pay their taxes, how silly of me.
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90 US nazi
one guy in london does not equate to the torture and illegal wars of Dick and G.
As for bringing up Austria and ww2. can we also hang the bush family for their part in running supplies to the enemy.
You on the right are crazy. and if the big gun war happens I'll be glad to know.
" democrats own guns too"
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90. At 07:22am on 25 Apr 2009, amerika_first wrote:
I wonder if the UN will investigate . . . the Russian FSB killing of a British citizen in London?
Why should it? Scotland Yard did; named a suspect; asked for him; was turned down. We'll just wait. Maybe one day he'll forget and turn up here for a holiday. Or the politics will change one day and they'll hand him over. The victim was, I think, still a Russian citizen, btw.
Can't be bothered explaining the relationship between UN agencies, the ICC, and the role of national governments in prosecutions for war crimes or crimes against humanity, or how Austria and France have dealt with either of those problems.
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#35 SamTyler1969
#28
Rodidog,
In this case the governing law is definined in the Constitution, more specifically the Bill of Rights and more specifically still the 4th and 8th Amendments.
All that UN stuff is irrelevant.
I agree with your point about the US Constitution being used in any criminal case. I was merely using the UN stuff to make a point about torture vs cruel treatment or punishment.
A few questions:
The 4Th Amendment, in regards to habeas corpus has already been settled by the Supreme Court; so I'm not sure how it would apply to torture. Perhaps you could elaborate?
The 8Th Amendment seems to allow for a pretty high bar when dealing with cruel and unusual punishment, especially torture. I would like to hear how it would apply in the case of waterboarding.
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#62 David_Cunard,
#28. rodidog: "Many of you keep calling these acts torture. I have previously drawn a distinction between what is torture and what is not."
So who elected you King of the World?
Apparently, sad Sam. Sorry if my sentence came off that way, it was not my intention. Thanks though, for cherry picking that little tid bit and bringing it to my attention.
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#73 gunsandreligion,
I think your right. I think it would have been better to leave the idea of torture to history or someonelse. Of course, when the unions find out they've been busted by the bankruptcy of GM and Chrysler, that will create even more of a diversion.
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It does not seem to have occurred to some people to have had a look at the Military Commissions Act 2006, clearly designed to get around any provisions in both the american Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
It gives military tribunals the right to hear evidence extorted from a defendant by torture. ("No person shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself." Fifth amendment, I believe.) And, it may interest some of the advocates of torture and secrecy to know, it also gives the president the right to declare American citizens "enemy combatants".
Since, as I've pointed out before, the USA has not ratified those provisions of the UN Convention, sadly, as far as that country is concerned, its provisions and definitions are meaningless in law in that country, if not morally. As for the prohibition of "cruel and unusual" punishment, the bar so far set by the Supreme Court, since apparently it allows lethal drug cocktails, electrocution, and even once upon a time in one state execution by firing squad, I wouldn't want to rely on that court for a corresponding interpretation of 'torture' very much.
It's all going to get pretty messy, obviously, over the next few years. Sorry, but I can't say I feel any sympathy.
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Ref poor Heinz and his sick wife (#17) , and the 'suspected terrorists' #25.
Some answers coming soon.
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97. At 09:26am on 25 Apr 2009, Richard_SM wrote:
Ref poor Heinz and his sick wife (#17) , and the 'suspected terrorists' #25.
Some answers coming soon.
Thought we'd all agreed on 25, since the armchair Torquemadas didn't come out to play with their whips and waterboards.
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88. At 07:07am on 25 Apr 2009, british-ish wrote: I demand he makes his birth certificate public.
I have since unearthed this: 'Then, in 1985, Gov. Anthony Earl of Wisconsin decided “America’s Dairyland” was boring and sponsored a contest for a new state slogan, which drew an avalanche of suggestions. A screening committee declined to consider the popular favorite: “Eat Cheese or Die.” '
Clearly MAII spent some time in Wisconsin, but had to leave.
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From a political perspective, I think the Obama administration has been handling the torture issue with great skill. The waffling, the flip-flopping, the indeciciveness -- it's all good! In just a few months, Obama has generated more interest in human rights issues that Bush did in eight long years. I view this as victory for Mr. Obama as well as those of us who inhabit the planet.
But now what? What's the statute of limitations on torture? Should US miltary trainers be prosected for their training of Latin American Juntas? What about the foot soldiers in Iraq who urinated on prisoners and burned them with cigaretts? Prosecution of all would cause extensive environmental damage as there is not enough paper.
A better idea might be to excercise "prosecutorial discretion." Go straight to the top. Quick, clean, and surgical. The sooner American punishes those who were most responsible for the torture, the sooner we can hold our heads high as citizens of a counrty that genuinely upholds human rights.
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43. TeaMilkNoSugar,
Thanks for that standard textbook response from the left. Never having read Klugman, I have no idea whether he is an idiot or a genius or whether he is completely or partially frozen in lefty PC. However, on the left he certainly must be to write for the NYT and get a Nobel Prize.
All I am saying is that the awarding of a Nobel is itself no guarantee of any special talent in the recipient, but often a reflection of the narrow, holier-than-thou, pompous lefty perspective of the Nobel Committee. I thought everyone knew that.
Now don't be nasty. I have no "contempt for learning and academia," and neither is that a distinguishing feature of the right. But I am astonished at the stranglehold that the left has on academia. In countless institutions of "higher education" it is extremely difficult to progress without accepting the indoctrination of the authoritarian left.
These institutions churn out cloned lefty graduates by the thousands, all spouting the same tired old uninformed rubbish on practically any subject under the sun. They have not been taught how to think; they have been taught what to think.
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Could any Americans give us the perspective of various christian groups on the current debate about torture?
What's being said in the Bible belt?
Can 'christian values' be applied to the practise of torture'?
What do America's religious leaders say about the use of "torture"?
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Ref # 101 TrueToo
Do please show us 'how' to think.
We would appreciate a couple of minutes of your time with answers to #17 and #25
Thank you very much
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ref #18
So David: Dissent is only acceptible when liberals do it? Obama has been a disaster in his first 100 hundred days. Those of us who look beyond the Feel god politics told you so.
In regard to the NYT vs Fox, there is a reason they are in so much financial trouble and are threataning to close the Boston Globe. Beside the fact you can read it electronicly many see through the dishonesty that they and NBC have. There is a reason why Jeffrey Elmelt was booed at the latest GE stockholder meeting.
Regarding the Nobel prize if you knew anything beside what you want to hear:
There are two types of Nobel: The hard science: Physics, Medical etc
Then the soft which are mostly political, Krugman is a joe when ever confronted on his views he makes GWB look like Winston Churchill.
The Nobel Peace prize has awarded to terrorists and terrorist enablers.
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Richard_SM:
I couldn't give you any polling data on Christians' view of torture, it's just not my cross to bear. But I would suppose that even the most right wing Christians would be troubled by the policy and practice of torture.
Perhaps I'm overly optimistic, but I think support for "enhanced interrogation techniques" will weaken with time. As more information comes out and people have more time to think these things over, support will fade. I also don't think that the Republicans have developed a very effective political defense.
I expect Obama's favorabilty ratings to fall, partly on the torture issue and partly on the economy, because these issues don't have quick solutions. His favorabilty ratings have been unsustainably high. The pendulum has got to swing back a bit.
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101. At 10:17am on 25 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
"All I am saying is that the awarding of a Nobel is itself no guarantee of any special talent in the recipient, but often a reflection of the narrow, holier-than-thou, pompous lefty perspective of the Nobel Committee. I thought everyone knew that."
Let's start at the beginning. !901: Wilhelm Conrad Roentgen. 1903, Henri Becquerel. 1906, Theodore Roosevelt. 1909, Giuglielmo Marconi. 1911, Marie Curie . . .Fast forward: 1921: Albert Einstein. 1933: Erwin Schroedinger. 1945: Sir Alexander Fleming. 1954: Ernest Hemingway. (Oh, and the previous year, one George C Marshall.) 1962: James Watson, Francis Crick. 1970: Alexander Solzhenitsyn. 1993: F.W. de Klerk. . . .oh, I can't be bothered. I've even cherry picked a few you might like.
Clearly. all of them "of no special talent".
And http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/lists/universities.htm is the list of the institutions Nobel prizewinners are all from, which will astonish you "at the stranglehold that the left has on academia." My own university doesn't appear to have been lefty enough to get any Nobels, sadly. (I'm working on upping the score, though. Thanks for the tip. Should be easier now I know how it works.)
"These institutions churn out cloned lefty graduates by the thousands, all spouting the same tired old uninformed rubbish on practically any subject under the sun. They have not been taught how to think; they have been taught what to think."
Oh, quite.
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104. At 10:54am on 25 Apr 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
"The Nobel Peace prize has [been] awarded to terrorists"
Amazed as I am to find you saying something accurate, so it was. In 1978.
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103. Richard_SM,
I'll have a look at them if you respond to the point I just made and also finally acknowledge that you were wrong to claim that the US would deal out worse treatment to its suspected spies than would Iran. I made a few comments on the issue, including information on the appalling case of the Iranian-Canadian journalist accused of spying by the Iranians and raped and tortured to death in their custody. You have put your nose in the air and ignored them all, preferring to let your original ignorant comment stand, even in the face of a mountain of damning evidence to the contrary.
So are you big enough to admit you were wrong or even prepared to enter into a discussion on the issue?
Your move.
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RE 81
British-ish You mean to tell me that in the United Kingdom, officials destroy documents that?
To quote Claude Renneua from the film Casablanca
I'm I'm shocked, There's gambling.
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"The issue is whether anyone has the right not to prosecute if it turns out that the abuses were policy as well as practice."
sheeeesh... Those "how many angels fit on the head of a pin?" questions just keep comming.
The answer to the question is...
No.
Next question?
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A Congress Commision that usually gets nowhere is not going to be useful. If Mr. O wants to do some justice, he then needs to demand that sll cases, in which the defendants have been subjected to torture, be revisited
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I think it's too early to pass judgement on Obama on this issue. Firstly, although documents have been released showing the complicity in torture of senior officials, we don't yet have the full picture. Secondly,he has inherited an administration that was politically and morally bankrupt. Anyone in his position will make decisions that are unpopular in some quarters but are in their opinion unavoidable. If everyone concerned is prosecuted where do we stop? Does not the secretary who typed the memos not complicit? It is more important to bring the matter into the light of day and change the moral perspective than to go on an endless witch hunt. The lesson is the most important i.e torture is not only unacceptable in any circumstances but also useless at extracting genuine information.
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106. british-ish wrote:
Oh, quite.
I'm glad we agree on something at least.
Re Nobel, I was obviously talking about the political side of it not the awards for fields such as economics or medicine. Hell, they've even awarded Israelis prizes in economics.
But when it comes to politics, the Nobel Committee are textbook lefties. Imagine awarding Al Gore the Peace Prize, for goodness sake. And de Klerk won it in conjunction with Mandela. I notice you left that important bit of info out.
By the way, I would have thought you would be big enough to acknowledge that you took my "darker-hued" comment out of context in order to disparage me. Once I brought to light the context you had omitted, it put the comment in a completely different light, didn't it? You disappoint me. I thought you would be more fair-minded than that. I guess you've been studying at the feet of your guru Ed Iglehart in how to slyly take things out of context for propaganda purposes.
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110. At 12:12pm on 25 Apr 2009, 8thAmendment wrote:
sheeeesh... Those "how many angels fit on the head of a pin?" questions just keep comming.
The answer to the question is...
No.
Next question?
OK. It is: "Does that mean angels are all too big to fit on the head of a pin?"
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I think it is unfortunate, but very revealing, that whenever a debate about torture takes place it often degenerates into comparisons of whose torture was the most cruel and which ones should be considered benign. Is that the new measurand for our country? Have we sunken so low that the best we can say is that our torture was not as bad as those perpetrated by terrorist organizations like Al Qaeda or totalitarian regimes such as those in the old Soviet Union, China, North Korea or Cuba? What happened to the country that boasted of being a bastion of human rights, freedom and democracy and criticized other countries for abuses similar to the ones we are now trying to excuse?
Why is it that other countries where terrorist attacks have occurred have managed to overcome the trauma without relinquishing their ideals or their freedoms? Are we so afraid of dying that we are willing to hand Al Qaeda a prize they could have never dreamed of: our freedom and ideals?
Regarding the Nobel prize, suffice it to say that with the exception of the far right, the rest of the world and most Americans consider it an honor and a recognition of outstanding contributions to humanity and society. Just because Richard Nixon, George W. Bush, or Dick Cheney are unlikely candidates for that honor does not mean it is trivial or insignificant.
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111. At 12:21pm on 25 Apr 2009, Parrisia wrote:
A Congress Commision that usually gets nowhere is not going to be useful.
Quite. It'd just be a list of people saying "I plead the Fifth Amendment" wouldn't it?
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St Dom,
- "I think it is unfortunate, but very revealing, that whenever a debate about torture takes place it often degenerates into comparisons of whose torture was the most cruel and which ones should be considered benign."
The classical "Two wrongs" fallacy.Complain about this comment
British-sh
"An inquiry has already begun by the Attorney General in the UK. However, I would doubt very much that anyone in MI5 or MI6, let alone a senior civil servant or minister is likely to have left any record condoning torture, let alone actually asking for it."
And the testimony of the released GITMO detainee about the role of the British government doesn't count? The cooperation with the extraordinary renditions doesn't count? Nobody will investigate and the officials who knew about it and approved it are immune? So much for international law. I always said the whole thing was pure fraud, now you prove me right once again.
Of course the British government isn't going to charge the detainee with anything. They would have been far happier if he'd died in GITMO or just disappeared off the face of the earth. Now he's talking to the media including the BBC and it appears they are in it up to their eyeballs. And why shouldn't they have been? Who knows how many more 7-7s were prevented by information obtained from waterboarding. When the next one happens, reflect that it might have been prevented had the 12 terrorist suspects been waterboarded instead of released and deported this week.
The good news is that at least in the US, the government ultimately has no control over its citizens, they can only be punished in the aftermath on an individual basis in small numbers nor are the people afraid to stand up and defy the government. That is another big difference between the US and Europe Europeans don't understand. Whether they decide to take the law into their own hands through jury nullification, through lynch mobs, or torturing terrorists to find out what they are plotting, the government can't really stop it. There is an element of truth in the claim European elitists made in the early days of America that democracy was mobocracy. That is because in a real democracy, not the shams they call democracy in Europe, the people are the government. That is why Europeans trying to seperate President Bush and his administration from "the American people" was so laughable, they were one and the same.
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BTW 68 1/2, the double line in the horizontal part of the letter A in the logo for the Waldorf Astoria is not the same as Waldorf=Astoria. What kind of twisted minds do British schools turn out?
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Well.
It is true that Mr. Obama has got himself in quite a pickle. But do you remember during the campaign, when he visited troops in Germany? From 30 feet out, he stuffed that basketball through the hoop. Swooosh!
Do not underestimate this man's skill and sense of timing.
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Ref 111, Parrisia
"If Mr. O wants to do some justice, he then needs to demand that sll cases, in which the defendants have been subjected to torture, be revisited"
I doubt President Obama is too excited about the prospect of highly divisive and controversial hearings consuming national attention for months at a time when he hopes to pass healthcare reform, education improvements and other programmatic changes much closer to his heart than a bloody battle between the far right and left.
Yes, justice must alwayd be pursued, but the best way to achieve that in this case is to learn from what took place and put legislation in place to make sure it never happens again. Make no mistake, George W. Bush and Dick Cheney will not serve time in prison. The most likely outcome of a trial is a presidential pardon, if it even comes to that.
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#25
1) Pull in every bomb sniffing dog establish a grid and search.
2) Pull in the scanners and scan people as you have them exit.
3) While these tasks are proceeding torture everyone within reach on the off chance that one of them may have information about something that might cause some form of large harmful event.
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113. At 12:33pm on 25 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
106. british-ish wrote:
Oh, quite.
I'm glad we agree on something at least.
No, I think you misunderstood the context of that phrase. And my opinions are entirely my own, not coloured by anyone else's, whether you like the hue or not.
Now I don't know about you, but I'm going back to the subject of this blog.
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Re 121
That's why he's leaving it in the hands of the Attorney General to appoint a Special Prosecutor who will put together a grand jury and hear testimony. That why he can go about the business of governing the country while Someone of Intergrity, (usually a law professor with a background in criminal law), can persue the case. If I'm the AG, which of course I'm not, I would be calling up Harvard,Yale, Notre Dame, Stanford, Georgetown and Syracuse to see if they have any professor's who are about to go on a sabatical. My guess if they appoint anyone it will be from Georgetown, for no other reason than Georgetown is located in Washington, D.C.
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Frankly I think there were worse practices and policies than this torture that caused greater harm over the past 10 years and that rise to the level of crime (possibly treason) - but the paper trail for this torture policy is pretty blatant. Did this also involve Rumsfeld and Ashcroft - it seems their style
And its not like the US hasn't dealt with treason and scandal before - Obama has a tough row to hoe
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#93
Rodi,
The 4th amendment includes the right of the people to be secure in their persons. By guarding against illegal seizure it prevents the authorities from grabbing you without caused and giving you a good going over in the cells. You cannot be arrested, let alone tortured, unless there is probable cause. If there is then 'Cruel and unusual punshment' kicks in.
Legal Sam
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Some of you aren't old enough to recall the real Watergate scandal. It took a couple of years for the Washington Post to uncover the evidence and win its Pulitzers for investigative reporting, and to swing public opinion in the direction of Congressional hearings. Back then we didn't have FOIA or a 24-hour news cycle or instant communication. In the intervening time we re-elected President Nixon and continued to fight our awful and costly War in Vietnam. So, those of us yammering for instant prosecutions of the Bush Administration War Criminals (and I agree wholeheartedly that Bush, Cheney, Rummy and even Condi be investigated) might do best to slow down a bit and take a collective deep breath.
Another example, from further back in history and from a source that President Obama has studied intensively: President Lincoln. As Doris Kearns Goodwin has shown in her elegant biography, 'Team of Rivals,' Lincoln had a time herding all his cats in the direction of his vision. Another biographer -- and at this moment, I can't recall which one -- called it 'leading from behind.' There's a fine art to getting others to take the lead on elements of a leader's grand plan, and President Obama is a grand planner, if he's nothing else. I would not put it past his subtlety to have had prosecutions for War Crimes in mind as early as the campaign, but of course he knew that the AG has to take the lead in criminal investigations...and he also knew that the ferrets in the DOJ, Defense and State had to have time to find those incriminating memoes and bring them to light. Now public opinion has to go to work on the GOP members of Congress who have been saying NO for so long, to get them to say the right words to authorize bipartizan investigations. I've said this before: our government works very slowly, but it does work if you allow it to do its business and don't put impossible demands upon it.
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#119
Oh dear Marcus,
Shouting at the sandwiches again?
Waldorf=Astoria is not only the hotels name, it's a registered trade mark.
Try checking a fact or two before you spout off. I know people in the back of your limo tells you things, but have you ever considered they could be as ill informed as you?
Bored Sam
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109. At 11:51am on 25 Apr 2009, AmericanSportFan wrote:
British-ish You mean to tell me that in the United Kingdom, officials destroy documents that?
To quote Claude Renneua from the film Casablanca
I'm I'm shocked, There's gambling.
Didn't get what you meant at first, but the notorious auerelius made the same mistake. No, I meant that I shouldn't think any of them would have been so stupid as to put anything like the Bybee thing in writing in the first place. However, condoning it or expediting it, might well be a cause for prosecution. We'll have to see.
(British officials don't destroy documents. They forget them on the tube, leave them in the carpark or put their laptop down in the station and someone nicks it.)
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Do not be surprised when news stories about AG scandals start popping up. Carl Berstein, watergate WaPO reporter, writing on unpublished Church Committee findings, exposed a lot of CIA infiltration of the US news media. Get ready for the smear campaign.
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Nothin could be finer than to agree wwith the Lady from Carolina!
And I do...
Brit (123), I suspect more than one of the "contributors" here have need of an irony tune-up...but perhaps it's outside their system's capacity.
;-)
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"What kind of twisted minds do British schools turn out?" wrote the notorious. I went to an English one. All I know is that I've never come across one as twisted as 118 demonstrates.
(Well, possibly I did when I was training as a psychiatric nurse though, now I think about it. Didn't think he'd be released.)
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ref #128
Just to clarify.
Waldorf Astoria is one of the more recent Hilton's brands. Part of the marketing by Hilton and other major U.S chain is to covered every aspect of the lodging market.
For many years Waldorf Astoria refered to the famous hotel in NY.
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131. At 1:57pm on 25 Apr 2009, Hesiodos wrote:
Brit (123), I suspect more than one of the "contributors" here have need of an irony tune-up...but perhaps it's outside their system's capacity.
;-)
Maybe I should give it up. Go bronzey instead. What do you think my guru would advise?
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ref #115
I think it's unfortunate that you are accepting that harsh interogations are torture. By the ACLU definition harsh talking is unacceptible.
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We have three branches of government,checks and balance.Let the courts decide.If they do,It has nothing to do with Obama.Beside appointing Attorney Generals,however they don't always follow what the President wants and that is why the Federal Attorney General in Michigan was fired by Bush she refused to give charges of Death Penalty knowing it would cause an uproar in Michigan.Bush fired her.The Congress did one of their of no use committee hearing.But anyway if the courts pick it up, Obama can't stop it if he wanted to.The courts should follow the law of the land.And I am ashamed of how many Americans are making excuses for Bush.War is no reason to lose humanity.If torture worked and was justified,then why not allowing police to use these methods on all of us.maybe they would find missing children faster,or drug busts,etc...However what if person is innocent.And if these methods are effective why have we left them to the wayside?We can't lose sight of justice,even if these people commit murder,and torture.Do we really want to be like these people and their ignorant ways.Or are we better than that?Who do we want ourselves and our children to be.And you will have less people want to wear a military uniform if there is no honor associated with it.I am proud of Americans conduct in our Wars and the conduct we expect of our soldiers.Let's not take away our honor.We are a just and moral people.Let's not lose our values because others in other countries have none.
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#133
Magic,
Wrong. The Waldorf=Astoria is the hotel. The Waldorf=Astoria Collection is the brand Hilton uses for it's luxury hotels.
Diamond Sam
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British-sh, maybe word hasn't reached your corner of the UK yet so let me be the first break the bad news to you. All of Britain gave it up a long time ago, about the time Churchill pleaded with Roosevelt to save Britain from falling to the Nazis by putting Japan on the back burner after Pearl Harbor and focusing on the war in Europe. While Britain didn't fall to either the Nazis or the USSR, it has never really recovered. Judging from what I see on these blog sites, there may be no saving it from falling to militant Islam. The minds of British citizens are already being conditioned to resigning themselves to it. Being forced into the EU to relinquish its sovereignty was a big psychological step in that direction. Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Cantebury has already paved the theological road ahead by telling Brits that they will inevitably have to accept some elements of Sharia law. These are the first steps down the slippery slope of Talebanizing the UK. The first step is always the hardest.
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ref #137
You are splitting hairs they are both refered to as Waldorf Astoria
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To make sure that we bag tehm all in one big swoop lets also dig up the bones of Charles Degaulle and prosecute hime for torture over what was done in Alegeria. Let us not forget that the bombing of Dresden would today be classified as a war crime. Also the bombing of Serbia by NATO. To just point a few. I am personally looking forward when Nancy Pelosi has to fac federal indictment over her role in GITMO (When Amerika was safe) and the authorization of funds for the CIA operations. GWB has executive privelege so try your best, but you will lose, just like the Democrats lost twice to GWB and will likely lose to Jeb in 2012.
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123. british-ish,
No, I didn't misunderstand you. I just made a joke of your "Oh, quite."
Your comment is the mother of all cop-outs, but that's fine. It's pretty much what I expected.
Richard_SM may or may not reply to my on-topic comment at no. 108.
Don't think I'll hang around to find out. Seems strange that people on this blog jump up and down and point fingers at America for Guantanamo and Abu Graib, but ignore a country like Iran - one of the worst offenders when it comes to torture. I would have thought it would be a good opportunity to prove how caring and against the despicable practice of torture you all are.
Evidently Iran doesn't warrant your indignation. I can't imagine what more the Iranians would have to do to get your attention.
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#119. MarcusAureliusII: "BTW 68 1/2, the double line in the horizontal part of the letter A in the logo for the Waldorf Astoria is not the same as Waldorf=Astoria."
As with so many other things, there are none so blind as those who will not see. Next time you're driving along Park Avenue, pause at #301 and you will clearly see the '=' between the two words. It shows on their web site as well. This would have been the perfect time for you to agree that, for once, you were wrong, but no, you persist in saying that something isn't so when it can be clearly demonstrated that it is. Typical.
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140. At 3:11pm on 25 Apr 2009, amerika_first wrote:
Yes Dresden would probably ed as a war crime. What is the point being made?
I wouldn't count on Obama losing in 2012. He is a master politician
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135. At 2:18pm on 25 Apr 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #115
I think it's unfortunate that you are accepting that harsh interogations are torture."
Only a dershovitz disciople could write this.
It should go in the bookof inane quotes.
"harsh interrogation"
Beria's NKVD claimed only that it indulged in "French wrestling" ith its vicitims.
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Ref 140, Amerika
"...and will likely lose to Jeb in 2012"
Jeb Bush, the former governor of Florida, has a relatively moderate record and is much more articulate and is better prepared intellecutally and professionally than his older brother, but I doubt he will ever win the nomination of the Republican party. Regardless of how people may feel about George W. Bush, a three-man "dynasty" would be more than most Americans could stomach.
I expect the GOP to move to the center, not so much because of ideological shifts but because of necessity. It would not surprise me to see someone like Christie Todd Whitman, Mitt Romney or even Newt Gingrich win the nomination in 2012. Running against an intelligent woman with no affiliation to the extreme right or left (that leaves Sarah out of the equation) may present serious challenges to President Obama.
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amerika_first;
Pelosi clearly lied about not knowing all about waterboarding and other extreme interrogation methods when she denied it. She was fully briefed and agreed with it at the time, I think around 2002. Now she's changed her story by saying that she had no control over it. Will she be indicted for perjury? I don't know, I'm not familiar with the context of her lie, that is whether or not she was under oath. But as for credibility and the position of remaining Speaker of the House, that may be an entirely separate issue. I don't know if the Democrats will just ignore it as they typically do or even if the Republicans will make a poltical issue of it. Right now, this diversion from the real problems facing the US is the last thing we needed. Bringing this subject up now, I think President Obama has made one of the worst miscalculating political blunders I can remember, probably right up there with Watergate and the Cuban missile fiasco. It's hard to see how the President will prevent the nation and the world from becoming enthralled with it for some time to come or how this will bring the nation together as he promised instead of tearing it apart.
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68 1/2
Genius, if you won't believe me, maybe you'll believe the phone company or do you want to argue with AT and T too?
http://anywho.yellowpages.com/name/New-York-NY/waldorf-astoria?from=AnyWho&original_geo_location_terms=New+York+City
Why don't you call them up and ask them? Their phone number is right on this link.
God how Britain survived this long is beyond me.
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It's rather intriguing that the Republicans bring up Democrats and their complicity in Republican crimes to try and distract others from criticizing Republicans. (Also interesting that Republicans are willing to side with Democrats (or ex-Democrats) only if said Democrats embrace Republican ideals. (i.e. Clinton (Lest we forget, only three Republicans voted against her for SecState, despite her scandals... And Limbaugh wanted her to beat Obama...) and Lieberman (Then again, he's not a Democrat anymore...).))
What do I think? If Democrats committed the same crimes as the Republicans, then the law should go after them. If Pelosi knew, kick her out and jail her. If Reed knew, put him in alongside Bush. If Clinton or Biden or Kerry knew, they deserve jail time, not time in the spotlight.
I'm sure there are numerous qualified Democrats who upholded the laws (See Dennis Kucinich, Barbara Lee, Russ Feingold) and a few Republicans (Ron Paul, Walter Jones) who can be trusted with the reins of government.
To turn around the phrase from a favorite BBC heroine, sometimes you have to cut off the head to cure the ankle. Eliminate the lawbreakers from government, and watch trust in government rise.
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Orvillethird wrote:
"... Republicans bring up Democrats and their complicity in Republican crimes to try and distract others from criticizing Republicans"
My understanding is that some dems were told of the proposed "enhanced interrogation" but they were never told that it actually happened secondly, they were not permitted to discuss anything they heard with anyone else including staff or lawyers But I think the main issue is who was in charge, not who may ave heard bits and pieces about the proposal.
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113 Truelt a big fibber. your comment was not taken out of contextby British ish.
instead you are as the worlds at the end of the DALEK empire.
a second or so out side of reality.
You do not get to define the meaning of words. and when you write as a racist we all can see. to pathetically come here to try and make British-ish out as someone who was out of context when everyone went through you on this before.
iss dishonest.
Go back to that thread and carry on where YOU left off.you do that every time.
Questioning gets difficult everyone providing examples of your racist comments and then you stop posting and try to bring it up later on an unrelated topic.
I care little about the relevance of the topic , but find you and Ma to be intellectually dishonest because of your behaviour here, in this way.
A bit like getting nothing right in an argument and then obsessing about irrelevant detail.= no real points to make
Your other half has that problem.
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I think it's the Carl Rove influence. For several days, numerous Republicans were ranting, in unison, about "banana republics." It's odd how they follow in lock step. Are there no independent thinkers?
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"Once I brought to light the context you had omitted,"
You didn't. you think you did, but you didn't.
everyone else dropped it because they are bored with you.
do you want this to turn into another Prove truly marcus is a racist thread.
Pretty easy to do given your post.
But now that Your other half is claiming to possibly not be a white fellow.
Dishonesty at every opportunity doesnot back you argument up.
Mods this letter is not off topic.
they like to accuse people of things that are not true.
To belittle British-ish comments by suggesting that he is a liar and got it wrong.
when the FACT is Britishish did show racism in posts by MATT.
there was no contextual problems. the context is the overall angle of MATT.
that of a racist.
If this were the original topic others who have just joined the debate could see that British-ish was not quoting out of context.
But this is a favoured tactic of the TWoo
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ref #148
Another Moonbat convicting without a trial.
You are insisting it the minor discomfort is a crime. How about presumed innocence?
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Marcus,
Well, who would know? The Waldorf themselves or the customer service agent in Mumbai maintaining AT&T's web site? In this case, I would go with the hotel themselves. After all, it's their trade mark
http://waldorfastoria.hilton.com/en/wa/hotels/index.jhtml;jsessionid=030JR0L0GLXCGCSGBIW2VCQ?ctyhocn=NYCWAWA
Page title, logo top left and text are pretty clear. As is their stationary.
And here's the real issue. This is a very simple, easily checked fact. You made a common mistake, one so common that even a phone company made it. That doesn't make it excusable, it just puts you in a large class of mistaken people.
Bottom line, you got it wrong. Rather than check properly the original source data or admit a mistake off you go trying to find some 'authority' (in this case a rather second class phone company) that supports your view rather than modify your view to fit the facts. This is typical of the anti fact, anti intellectual approach Republicans have taken over the last 8 years, and the reason they got things so disasterously wrong.
Ironic that both you and Magic both have problems getting the name of a hotel right. What else do you have wrong?
Well, there's the British thing again. You still seem desperate to make me a Brit so that you can try to feel superior because you have this thing about Europeans. If it wasn't quite so pathetic it would be funny. I make no disguise of the fact I was partly educated in the UK, and that I spend a lot of time in London, though quite as much as in NYC. The rest of my time I spend in rural redneck Pa, where I grew up.
Enough in fact to know more about a NYC institution than someone who claims to have grown up there.
Laughing Sam
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8th I would love personally to find a way to kick out all the old guard but your point about Pelosi and the secrecy is important and conveniently missed by the right.
I like your point that who do you go to if speaking to anyone is treason.(unless you are giving out details of CIA agents in which case you will be OK)
Good point not one that will be easy for your opponents to grasp.
--------------------
MATT
AND HOW THICK IS THIS "point fingers at America for Guantanamo and Abu Graib, but ignore a country like Iran -"
sorry but are you dense.
Every week now for many months you have made this comment.
EVERY WEEK.
And every time loads of people write to say.
"this is a thread about america not Iran."
and" so we can't be compared to europe or any other first world nation that has a good reputation."
you include the USA with a whole list of other human rights ignoring countries,today Iran.
Again.
So Do shut up.
If you are not willing to listen to the answer.
( oh sorry you are not reading this , are you. MA is.)
must be hard keeping your world straight.
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151 there are some
I refer to the regular contributor here that shows such a moderate and even hand. Guns and Religion.
It is hard to see him as a GOPper. though he insists he is.
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153,
- "How about presumed innocence?"
Oh, the irony!Complain about this comment
I think this answers the question posed by Justin Webb
Saturday April 25, 2009 10:11 EDT
Transcript: Interview with U.N. torture official Manfred Novak
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/04/25/nowak/
Well mr. Holder? Looks like the ball is in your court.
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If the so-called torture is policy as well as practice, a government cannot be prosecuted. The policy was recognised by the government elected by the people.
How about Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling and Co ? Can we prosecute them for gross financial mismanagement in the past, and worse to come in the future ?
IF ONLY !
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And this, from the same source:
"As we know, for instance, when Defense Secretary Rumsfeld authorized certain interrogation methods at Guantanamo Bay, that he was warned by the Counsel of the Navy, Alberto Mora, who clearly said, what you're authorizing and what seems to be justified by the Bybee and John Yoo memoranda of 2002 - we are now back in 2002 - what you are authorizing is torture. So Secretary Rumsfeld was actually warned. Nevertheless, he authorized these interrogation techniques, and later the legal basis, kind of, the legal justification, in other words, these memoranda of 2002, were later withdrawn as being not in accordance with the correct interpretation of the American criminal law."
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#140, 143
Dresden was a significant rail center and base of manufacturing. These were legitimate targets. Whether or not you agree with the method used to take them out, Dresden was perfectly legal under the rules of war at the time, and now.
Historian Sam
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ref #158
Manfred Novak reports to the U.N Human Rights Council.
You know the sham agency that was totally discredited last week for allowing the President of Iran to spout lies about Israel.
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MagicKirin:
Do you disagree with his interpretation of the law?
If the US never intended to abide by Convention Against Torture, then President Ronald Reagan should not have signed it.
Is it your view that the US disregard all treaties?
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"Don't mention the war!"
(Just stick with the current one, OK? The one that's causing the current bother. Or I shall start going on interminably about the sack of Beziers and the war crimes of Simon de Montfort.)
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161. At 5:43pm on 25 Apr 2009, SamTyler1969 wrote:
#140, 143
Dresden was a significant rail center and base of manufacturing. These were legitimate targets. Whether or not you agree with the method used to take them out, Dresden was perfectly legal under the rules of war at the time, and now.
Historian Sam"
Not so historian
Dresden contained rail facilities, all towns of its size did. The raid hit the rail head relatively lightly. The size and force of the raid, and the machine gunning
"That explained the slaughter to everyone’s satisfaction, I am sure, but it aroused no little contempt. It is a fact that 48 hours after the last B-17 had droned west for a well-earned rest, labour battalions had swarmed over the damaged rail yards and restored them to nearly normal service. None of the rail bridges over the Elbe was knocked out of commission. Bomb-sight manufacturers should blush to know that their marvellous devices laid bombs down as much as three miles wide of what the military claimed to be aiming for."
Claimed is the point here.
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- "You know the sham agency that was totally discredited last week for allowing the President of Iran to spout lies about Israel."
Not a single lie, just truths you don't likeComplain about this comment
154 At 5:11pm on 25 Apr 2009, SamTyler1969 wrote:
Marcus,
http://waldorfastoria.hilton.com/en/wa/hotels/index.jhtml;jsessionid=030JR0L0GLXCGCSGBIW2VCQ?ctyhocn=NYCWAWA
Page title, logo top left and text are pretty clear. As is their stationary.
"Well, there's the British thing again. You still seem desperate to make me a Brit so that you can try to feel superior because you have this thing about Europeans. If it wasn't quite so pathetic it would be funny. I make no disguise of the fact I was partly educated in the UK, and that I spend a lot of time in London, though quite as much as in NYC. The rest of my time I spend in rural redneck Pa, where I grew up."
Marcus is depserate to be British, he cannot stop thinking everyone else is British.
I am apparently British too. I think Obama and all non-white, non far right Americans are -all Canadians too and all Venezualeans
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25 Apr 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Ahem, ahem. Mister Canard know-it-all
"Apparently you've never been there, since there is an '=' between Waldorf and Astoria"
http://www1.hilton.com/ts/en_US/landing/WA_site_selection.html?WT.srch=1
I was born in New York City. I was raised in New York City."
Well that's no one's fault but your parents Marcus
Your colour is their fault to, no one elses. Suggest you get used to it.
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Ref 163, 8th
"If the US never intended to abide by Convention Against Torture, then President Ronald Reagan should not have signed it."
We sign and support treaties when they are beneficial to our interests, and reject them or ignore them when they become obstacles to achieve our goals. The same goes for our support to totalitarian regimes. Saddam Hussein was the darling of the Reagan administration who did not hesitate to provide that dictator with weapons of mass destruction, military intelligence, and moral support during the Iraq-Iran war, and dumped him when he was no longer useful and when he became an easy distraction to achieve geopolitical, economic and re-election goals.
In fairness to our country, duplicity is nothing new in the annals of history and I doubt it is going to end any time soon. The only thing wrong is that we pretend to be different.
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It is a dilemma. Terrorist are humans, and human society which is led by leaders are mostly responsible to create terrorism by inciting political, religious emotional arousal. Torture per se is not acceptable by civilized world. Going back and try to punish public servants certainly will not bear desirable fruit. However in a democratic world, selection of leader is important, and let him do the job. Leader has to take decision, tough decisions, which at the time it was taken may look correct, however at the later point of time it would be seemingly wrong. For Example: The terror attack kills hundred of innocent lives. But rooting out or flushing out terrorism there is no straight forward formula. Human rights group, yes they are doing commendable jobs most of time let them do the job, my understanding is that uniform rules of prosecution may not be applied to all. The simple rule to observe is that forget the past and look forward with optimism, determination, get ready to face unforeseen burst of such attack. In other word we need to be more smart than terrorists or un-lawful elements. We have to have more patience, and all judgments and decisions should be thoughtful. In Hindu philosophy, there is no death, it is only change of costume called death. The another point about terrorist is that they are weak soul, they do not have enlightened goal of life, yet they want to show that they can do whatever they want. There is always victory of righteousness on unrighteousness because righteousness is only stable model of life and progress.
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Ref 153, Magic
"You are insisting it the minor discomfort is a crime."
Are you in favor of other nations applying similar "minor discomfort" to US prisoners or do we have an exclusive on exhuberant treatment of suspects?
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#165
Simon,
What are you argueing? That there was no rail head, no manufacturing or that they were not legitimate targets?
Inquisitive Sam
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172. At 6:48pm on 25 Apr 2009, SamTyler1969 wrote:
#165
Simon,
What are you argueing? That there was no rail head, no manufacturing or that they were not legitimate targets?
Inquisitive Sam"
I am arguing that that some excuse could have been made for ever city.
Or to put it another way every city in Europe is some form of transport hub and manufactuing centre (Dresden was not a major manufacturing centre). That surely did not mean all were legitimate targets for fire raids by each side.
The ferocity of the allied raid was not concerned with simply hitting the rail head.
The fact they dropped leaflets days afterwards saying that was their intention speaks volumes.
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153. At 5:07pm on 25 Apr 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #148
Another Moonbat convicting without a trial.
You are insisting it the minor discomfort is a crime. How about presumed innocence?"
Presumption of innocence?
How does tha tapply to torture?
All victims of torture are presumed to be guilty.
That is the point.
Take your nose out of the latest hysterical Dershovitz rant and start thinking.
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#173
Yes Simon,
Pretty much every city in Europe was a legitimate target during WWII.
Historian Sam
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America is only doing what it has learnt from the Israeli regime and if you look into the actions of the IDf you will see quite clearly the same tactics and as for torture 'well Israel is an old hand at that also bombing a house or school if they believe there is a high value target suspected in that area they will go for it and evidence for that is plenty when you look at the amount of civilian dead.
For a country to use torture and murder as a legitimate tactic ebbs down on to the moral fabric of the society it represents or says it represents and if you look into the fabric of the Israeli regime you will see quite clearly a moral decline from the politicians down either through corruption or the violence in everyday life .
I fear for the UK and our moral ambivalence to life (in other countries)
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175, Sam.
"Pretty much every city in Europe was a legitimate target during WWII."
The sad thing about modern warfare is that now we no longer reserve our killing to combatants. Civilians, includeing innocent children, are fair game. How can that be morally justifiable? It can't.
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In the event that Mr. Holder proves to be cowardly, do you think any European countries will prosecute the US torturers? What's up with Spain?
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#177
Marby,
Unfortunately civilians have always been victims in war, from the Gauls sold into slavery after defeat by Caesar to the countless thousands massacred in towns and cities when they fell to invading armies during the middle ages, there has never been a clean form of warfare.
Ironically we may, with Laser munitions and so on, be reaching an era in which the civilian population can be largely protected from colateral damage.
Sad Sam
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Sam (#161) "Dresden was a significant rail center and base of manufacturing. These were legitimate targets. Whether or not you agree with the method used to take them out, Dresden was perfectly legal under the rules of war at the time, and now."
That's not clear. Here's a thoughtful opinion piece on the subject from the Guardian
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Backed into a small tight corner after having lost every single argument with this American, the British contingent is reduced to a fighting to the death over whether or not there is a "=" symbol between Waldorf and Astoria in the way that brand is currently marketed by its present owner Hilton. As a native New Yorker, all New Yorkers I've ever met merely called it "The Waldorf." Who cares. What a bunch of maroons. Small wonder the Germans consider themselves generally smarter than the Brits. I think they're right.
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There is steak in the Euro-American character that always marks him or her as a slave master. He cannot seem to adjust that whipping and torturing only antaganizes people, it does not make them love them. Americans as any foreigner knows crave to be loved. This is why George W. Bush did not understand the shoe throwing. He thought that even though he was the Desk Murderer who ordered the death of 100,000 Iraqis, the Iraqis should love him. He thought his gift of so-called freedom was worth the price of widows and orphans. To the Iraqis it is not.
Nothing can change these tortorers' minds because they see nothing morally wrong in their hanious actions.
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Ref HEINZ, THE CHEMIST AND UNAFFORDABLE LIEFSAVING DRUGS linked to scenario in # 17
There are no right or wrong answers. Just categories. Here you go:
Obedience responses
Husband Heinz should not steal the drug from the chemist because he will consequently be put in prison, meaning he is a bad person.
Heinz should steal the medicine because its monetary value is less than chemist is charging and Heinz had offered to pay for it and did not stealing anything else.
Self Interest Responses
Heinz should steal the drug because he will be much happier if he saves his wife, although he may have to serve a prison sentence.
Heinz should not steal the drug because prison is horrible and he might miss his freedom more than miss his wife.
Conformity Responses
Heinz should steal the drug because his wife expects him to and he wants to be a good husband. He made a commitment to her.
Heinz should not steal the drug because stealing is bad and Heinz is not a lawbreaker. He did try to do everything he could within the law, you cant blame him.
Law and Order Responses
Heinz should not steal the drug because its illegal.
Heinz should steal the drug for his wife, accept judicial punishment for the crime and pay the chemist compensation for losses. Laws cannot be ignored, whatever the reason.
Human Rights Responses
Heinz should steal the drug because everyone has a right to choose life, irrespective of the law.
Heinz should not steal the drug because the chemist has a right to earn a living. Even if his wife is sick, it does not make his actions right.
Universal Human Ethics Responses
Heinz should steal the drug, because saving a human life is a more fundamental value than the property.
Heinz should not steal the drug because others may need the drug just as badly, and their lives are equally important.
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ref #174
Simon we all know you hate Jews, because Dershowitz would favor the prosecution of the Bush officials.
But you throw out hate toward anyone who is in favor of fighting Islamic terrorism, or anyone who defends Israel.
Just as you would have been at home manning the ovens at Dresden.
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#184
Marcus,
Hilarious. Backed into a corner by what? By your devastating logic that the the phone company is infallible, or by your latest post being wrong (the Waldorf=Astoria has been the Waldorf=Astoria since it moved into the Astoria building in 1931. It was previously known as simply The Waldorf.)
How does your brain work? 'I'm wrong. I'm completely wrong. I'll try an insult. That will show them my superiority. It will it will it will. Then I'll just say everyone calls it something else for short. Irrelevant but it may just outsmart them pesky Pennsylvanians. I mean Brits.'
It does prove the point. You can't get anything right, then you link to a site proving your own errors. Then you try to lash out by claiming you are right. I'm not surprised you think the world is against you, most of it seems to be smarter than you. At least more thorough.
Were you bullied at school? By a British kid? Did they sneer down their nose at you and call you 'Spotty'?
Bored Sam
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gravemary
"Americans as any foreigner knows crave to be loved."
Not this American. At least not to be loved by Europeans. What English crave is to be tolerated. They are deathly afraid of being left alone on their island. That is what their self invented "special relationship" with the US that exists only in their own minds is all about. That is why they haven't protested en masse against the loss of their sovereignty to the EU, they are thrilled just to be accepted in it. And that is why they pay Scotland tax subsidies to keep them in the UK. Even with the prospect of the loss of tax subsidies, many Scots want out. Even money isn't enough to bribe them to put up with the English. Now that shows how extreme their feelings about the English are. Me, I just keep an eye out for the return of the Redcoats.
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184, ubermensch.
"But you throw out hate toward anyone who is in favor of fighting Islamic terrorism, or anyone who defends Israel."
"Poor Johnny One Note." If we were to talk about relativity he would find a way to bring Israel into the discussion. Ubermensch, you are boring, boring, boring.... (And silly.)
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186, staphylococcus aureus.
The way ubermensch harps on Israel, you harp on Europe. Since you both always sing the same song you are unteresting and - boring, boring, boring....
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ref #187 and 188
Simon brought up Dershowitz I didn't
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#181. MarcusAureliusII: "the British contingent is reduced to a fighting to the death over whether or not there is a "=" symbol between Waldorf and Astoria"
Sam is American and I am British - and we've both been there. In any case, it was yourself who first introduced the topic with your misspelt version and then fought to show you were correct when you were not. Had you any ounce of common decency or courtesy you could have conceded that you made a mistake, but you have chosen not to do so.
I realise that you are not well travelled, but in London there is also a hotel called "The Waldorf", currently owned by Hilton, which makes the differentiation relevant. Not to mention other unrelated establishments in Buenos Aires and Paris.
"Who cares."
You apparently, since you had to defend your position so vigourously - and lost.
"What a bunch of maroons."
A maroon is very bright and lights up the sky.
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Ref 183 Richard_SM
Heinz was obtuse. He should have gone on-line and looked for a cheaper source; or drove to Canada where he could have found the same drug for about 1/2 to 1/3 the price the local, greedy drug pusher was gouging him for.
Joe Six-pack Pharmacy Services
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Further to my post above - this last sentence was supposedly (twice) denied because of "profanity filter":
Someone who cannot spell might be called a m*r*n. Now be a good boy and go back to your trailer."
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Ref 185 SamTyler1969
The White House announced today that it will not be possible for the President to speak during commencement ceremonies at the University of Marcus. There is not enough room in the trailer to fit in all the Secret Service for the protection of the President even if the University library is temporarily moved to a shoe box out on the trailer pad.
Joe Six-pack White House Press Corps
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Ref #108 TrueToo
Ha - but I wasn't wrong. I made an observation about the Iranian-American. You challenged and I answered it. I contrast the treatment she'd received compared to what she'd have faced as a muslim spying on America for al Qaeda. I recall you wanted to change the topic. The notion that Iran was behaving better than USA was too uncomfortable for you.
You only accept the narrow narrative thats recycled through Tel Aviv.
What's the point of providing you with facts, sources and independent report?
All the academics, professors and doctors "spouting the same tired old uninformed rubbish" are lefties don't know "how to think."
All the hundreds of reporters and journalists at the BBC are "Israel bashers." Every single one of them a biased Israel basher.
You won't even trust respected Jews:
Gerald Kaufman - disregard everything he says - Israel basher.
Avi Shclaim - disregard everything he says - Israel basher.
Avraham Burg - disregard everything he says - Israel basher.
Richard Falk - disregard everything he says - Israel basher.
They don't know "how" to think.
Independent Jewish Voices - more Israel bashers.
You put yourself up on a pedestal as being superior to all the universities in the land, all the BBC journalists, and many, many Jewish academics. Obviously all these people have wasted their lives thus far. Oxford, Cambridge, Leeds better look out - the University of TrueToo is here. When are your open days?
So - please educate us all. We all look forward to being shown "how" to think.
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#186
Jesus loves you Marcus.
So you've got that going for you.
Born Again Sam
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#138 MAII:
"Judging from what I see on these blog sites, there may be no saving it from falling to militant Islam. The minds of British citizens are already being conditioned to resigning themselves to it. Being forced into the EU to relinquish its sovereignty was a big psychological step in that direction. Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Cantebury has already paved the theological road ahead by telling Brits that they will inevitably have to accept some elements of Sharia law. These are the first steps down the slippery slope of Talebanizing the UK. The first step is always the hardest."
This is just hilarious, tell me Marcus did you bother to find out what the response was to the Archbishops comments? The kindest responses suggested he was detached from reality, and they were in the distinct minority. The majority divided between calls for his resignation and suggesting deporting him to some Islamic country. I would say the UK is less likely to fall into the clutches of extreme Islam than the US is to fall under the power of Christian ones.
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No prosecutions will happen, although they absolutely should. Time and time agian we have seen that America and its Allies (namely Isreal) are above and behind reproach or scrunity of human values and ethics. They make the laws for everyone else from which they themselves are exempt. More and more poeple are being driven out of their homes as we speak in east Jeruselam at gun point while their homes and livelihood is demolished under the tracks of a bulldozer to make more room for illegal Israeli settlements, more and more farms/land is being grabbed by the illegal wall under the pretence of self defence. And yet we all hail and congradulate Israel as the height of everything that is supposedly free and democratic.
I also find it, rather saddly, comical when your ex prime minister (TB) stands up and anounces that rise of radical islam has nothing to do with colonialism of the British. Time and time again moderate muslim countries such as Iran and Egypt held free elections and elected democratic progressive goverments with a constitution and seperate judiciary, and every time British directly and by force intervened to topple those goverments, arrested, tortured and killed oppostion and ereceted their own self-serving goverments (1882 bombardemnt of Alexandria and 1952 CIA backed coup of IRan being two of the many that is well known and documented). It was precisely these actions that made progressive free thinking people turn to extremist as result of decades of seeing their democratic dreams cruchsed by force.
For over a decade USA and UK backed a murderous, autocratic dictator, Zia Ul-Haq in Pakistan with his nitorious, ISI, whose fundementalist ideology were instrumental in creating and backing the Taliban. His poisonous legacies through the army and ISI are still hampering progress in Pakistan.
I could go on name more and more of these historic, what may seem to you through your popular culture and media as irrelevant, historic facts. But until you stand up, recognise your errors and take responsibility for them, this mess thtat we're all in (although it affects some of us alot mroe than others) will not stop in the forseeable future.
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On the actual topic of pursuing legal action over the torture issue I would go along with those who suggest that whatever the ehtical and moral case for prosecution it would absorb so much of the time and energy needed to repair the USA as to be a pyrrhic victory.
Also would you actually be able to find a jury who would convict? I suspect you would find a lot of Americans willing to accept torture as just getting the job done ala Jack Bauer.
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Canard
I was quoting the most appropriate American philospher I could think of when I referred to English as maroons....the one and only world famous....Bugs Bunny. Man he had you guys pegged even though he didn't mention you by name. :-) I wonder what Bart Simpson would say. He's
the one who first called the French cheese eating surrender monkeys.
Lostallyourmarbles;
Well then I'll just switch my attention to Iran and the rabid deranged monsters who are bringing it into focus as the inevitable target of a pre-emptive nuclear attack by more than one nation....and those who are apologists for them and their suicidal policies and dogmas. Thanks to them a 5000 year old civilization may soon become a vanished artifact of history.
S&M
The American reporters who snuck into North Korea and the one who reported stories from Iran will get a first hand lesson the hard way about what the world is really all about, very different from their naive "can't we all just get along" pie in the sky rose colored view of it. ALL of BBC's reporters are anti-Semitic and Anti-American. I've yet to see one who didn't reveal sooner or later that deep down he wasn't. It's the kind of people they recruit, the corporate culture they foster.
Leeds University is the place where the infamous professor of Thermodynamics Andrew McIntosh perpetrates his imbecilities. He's the one who asserted in a debate with Dawkins that the spontaneous formation of DNA in nature as part of the process of evolution violated the second law of thermodynamics. Any credible university in the world would have dismissed him for a public display of incompetence for such a statement. Leeds chose to keep him on. As a result, any applicants for technical jobs where a degree from Leeds University is one of the presented credentials by a candidate I'd be asked about, I would automatically disqualify.
The skill of how to think is rarely taught in so called institutions of higher education. This is a technique which involves the process of problem solving, a rare and very valuable skill in this world. What most universities and colleges teach is what to think. Memorize each of your professor's particular prejudices, reproduce it in an essay enough times in enough classes to get passing grades, and they give you piece of paper that says you are educated even though you know nothing. Those educations have generally proven worthless except to get jobs in management where other people do the work and the university graduate manager gets the credit and the bonus check for it. President Clinton went to Oxford on a Rhodes scholarship but he was so dumb, he didn't know how to stay out of trouble that destroyed his reputation forever and sidetracked America from tending to its real business. The result was 9-11 and events in the chain of events that destroyed the world's economy. He's even accepted and admitted partial blame for it on American television.
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#199. MarcusAureliusII: "I was quoting the most appropriate American philospher I could think of....Bugs Bunny."
Doesn't say much for your educuaction, does it?
"ALL of BBC's reporters are anti-Semitic and Anti-American. I've yet to see one who didn't reveal sooner or later that deep down he wasn't. It's the kind of people they recruit, the corporate culture they foster."
What utter rubbish. Since you rely on the very few American telecasts of BBC programmes, I can't see how you can possibly judge what "ALL" BBC reporters are. However, the use of "they" rather than "it" gives me pause. The British usually use the plural form for corporate and governmental bodies, whereas Americans use the singular, since these are abstract organisations. Are you really American or simply a disaffected Briton masquerading as a New Yorker? Your ignorance of the Waldorf=Astoria 'equals' (=) sign might be similarly suggest that you've never been to New York, unless on a package holiday.
"The skill of how to think is rarely taught in so called institutions of higher education."
A course which you apparently flunked.
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Ref # 199 MarcusAureliusII
All very interesting. No really - fascinating. I can see the how it all relates to the topic of torture. Are you alright now? Sure? Off you go then.
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#199. MarcusAureliusII: "Any credible university in the world would have dismissed (Prof McIntosh) for a public display of incompetence for such a statement."
Perhaps you conveniently missed this:
29 November 2006
Press statement: Professor Andrew McIntosh
Professor Andrew McIntosh's directorship of Truth in Science, and his promotion of that organisation's views, are unconnected to his teaching or research at the University of Leeds in his role as a professor of thermodynamics. As an academic institution, the University wishes to distance itself publicly from theories of creationism and so-called intelligent design which cannot be verified by evidence.
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Canard;
Insufficient. Yes I saw it. Absolutely unacceptable and inadequate. My position remains that I no longer recognize Leeds University as an institution of higher learning with credible academic credentials. I reject its accreditation as a school of science and engineering.
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199,
- "ALL of BBC's reporters are anti-Semitic and Anti-American. I've yet to see one who didn't reveal sooner or later that deep down he wasn't."
Do you read what you write before you spew it?Complain about this comment
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Hesidio
Yes and that statement was given considerable thought and reflection before I wrote it. I'll stick by it. IMO BBC lives on a long past reputation for complete and objective reporting of the news it no longer deserves. Its standards have sunk to the lowest point in journalism I know of. It is barely one step above a supermarket checkout stand rag.
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#199
Marcus,
Dead give away you're French. Any patriot would know that Bugs was referring to the Pottsville Maroons who forfeited the 1925 NFL title through an act of pure arrogance and stupidity by their boss.
So you think the English are a bunch of coal miners who play tough real mans games, are the best in the league and are led by an idiot?
Interesting. Bizarre. Not funny. Not even close to witty. But interesting.
Then you get to:
'any applicants for technical jobs where a degree from Leeds University is one of the presented credentials by a candidate I'd be asked about, I would automatically disqualify.'
Let me know how the lawsuit works out.
And here's the best part:
'President Clinton went to Oxford on a Rhodes scholarship but he was so dumb, he didn't know how to stay out of trouble that destroyed his reputation forever and sidetracked America from tending to its real business. The result was 9-11 and events in the chain of events that destroyed the world's economy. He's even accepted and admitted partial blame for it on American television.'
So because Bill liked interns, women in general, Bush was so distracted that 9/11 happened?
The way your brain works is fascinating 'I don't like Brits, I hate anyone who has more than me. Clinton gets money and women. I hate Clinton. I don't have money, I'm alone. It's his fault I am miserable. It's the economy. 9/11 caused the current recession. It's Bills fault. It's the Brits fault. It's everyones fault but mine'
Keep posting, this is very educational.
LOL Sam
Amused Sam
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MarcusAureliusII
Thank you for the unrelenting stream of entertaining cant. It's made this a very amusing thread.
Astonishing as it might seem, I do agree with your point- that institutes of higher learning do not teach critical thinking (I'd include high schools in this as well.) All too often I was forced to sit in classes with people just going through the motions, not putting any work or thinking into any of their assignments.
I blame this college-by-rote process for much of today's political mayhem- far too many people learned just enough to start mimicking what they were told, parroting the talking points fed to them by the people who told them what they wanted to hear. Which is what drove me, screaming, from the Republican't party.
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#203. MarcusAureliusII: "My position remains that I no longer recognize Leeds University as an institution of higher learning with credible academic credentials. I reject its accreditation as a school of science and engineering."
I really don't think anyone in a position to employ its graduates would care about your opinion.
#207. "(the BBC) is barely one step above a supermarket checkout stand rag."
Illuminating to discover what reading material you favour. If you loathe and distrust the BBC so much, then why listen to or view its programmes? Mentally masochistic it seems; perhaps you actually enjoy being admonished here but can't bring yourself to act it out physically. I get the impression that a good thrashing might excite you.
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Viacom;
"Which is what drove me, screaming, from the Republican't party."...into what, the Democratic Party? Can't you see that the only difference between them is who their friends are that they shovel the taxpayers' money to? I didn't vote this last time. IMO, both major parties put up candidates who were unqualified to be President...but for different reasons.
"I blame this college-by-rote process for much of today's political mayhem-"
I blame it on the fact that business is run by MBAs who seem to know nothing about how to run a business while the government is run by lawyers who seem to know nothing about the real world. Liberal arts educations are nothing but a pile of BS. An education in science or engineering forces you to learn how to think because it presents you with an endless stream of problems to solve. Once you learn how to think, you can study anything on your own, you don't need a school to teach you anymore, you have all the necessary intellectual tools for the rest of your life. It is especially easy now with so much available on the internet.
68 1/2
"Let me know how the lawsuit works out."
It's not illegal to throw a job application in the rejected pile if you work in private industry. You don't even need a reason. "The applicant didn't seem to me like a good match for the requirements of the job." In the US, that is sufficient. The burden of proof that there was discrimination on any illegal basis is on the applicant, a nearly impossible task given the realities of how businesses are run.
"So because Bill liked interns, women in general, Bush was so distracted that 9/11 happened?"
No, becaue Clinton was distracted by Monica Lewinsky, he didn't pay attention to al Qaeda, Iraq, the CMOs, or a lot of the real business he was elected to take care of. Then the Congress and the entire country became preoccupied with his games. By handing his head to his political enemies on a silver platter, he let the country down. And to think I voted for him...twice. What a dunce he turned out to be. A political imbecile.
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I'm getting a little annoyed here. I suggest rants that are nothing to do with the current topic should be ignored, and I get canned.
I'm through with this. Waste of time.
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213. At 03:24am on 26 Apr 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"Liberal arts educations are nothing but a pile of BS. An education in science or engineering forces you to learn how to think because it presents you with an endless stream of problems to solve. Once you learn how to think, you can study anything on your own, you don't need a school to teach you anymore, you have all the necessary intellectual tools for the rest of your life."
As you so aptly demonstrate in all of your hundreds of posts. (I think.)
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#214. british-ish: "I'm getting a little annoyed here. I suggest rants that are nothing to do with the current topic should be ignored, and I get canned."
Then tell us what the Squirrel Party thinks - no-one objected (on a different subject) to that side-bar before.
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saintDominick wrote:
Jeb Bush, the former governor of Florida, has a relatively moderate record and is much more articulate and is better prepared intellecutally and professionally than his older brother, but I doubt he will ever win the nomination of the Republican party. Regardless of how people may feel about George W. Bush, a three-man "dynasty" would be more than most Americans could stomach.
I would agree with you, but if he ran and did win it almost qualify to be a skit right out of Monty Python or Benny Hill. It is likely that that Newt will get the nomiantion fif he wants it, becuase he is the only standing republician that does not have splatter on him from the last 8 years. I personally like Joe Libermann to run but never as a democrat or republician. It is too bad that Arnold can not run, becuase he would make the contest interesting. In the matter of Pelosi, there is no doubt that she is in it up to her eyebrows, but the left is using it to bash Bush and has nothing to do with the law. it is politicial especially since GWB is no longer there. I would strongly suggest they don't go after Condi, becuase she might not be so easy, as former NSA I am quite sure that she knows things about members of Congress. There is a reason most presidents don't go after their predecessor, and that is they don't want the same thing to happen to them when their moment in the limelight is over. Glory is a fleeting mistress.
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#213
Marcus,
'It's not illegal to throw a job application in the rejected pile if you work in private industry. You don't even need a reason.'
Yep. You do. Let me know how it works out if you are ever allowed to conduct an interview.
'No, becaue Clinton was distracted by Monica Lewinsky, he didn't pay attention to al Qaeda, Iraq, the CMOs, or a lot of the real business he was elected to take care of. Then the Congress and the entire country became preoccupied with his games. By handing his head to his political enemies on a silver platter, he let the country down. And to think I voted for him...twice. What a dunce he turned out to be. A political imbecile.'
LOL, how many non sequiturs in a thread. Clinton ignored the non threat of Iraq as he was bombing them. He ignored Al Qaeda as he tried to kill them. The Republican Congress couldn't help being obsessed with the cigar incident because, after all, the cigar was so important. Financial institutions used this as an excuse to lobby Bush for less regulation? Hilarious. And so, magic, 9/11 happened.
So many issues on so many levels. If only we had time to address one or two.
How much does it burn to have Hillary at State?
Still bitching about MBA's and liberal arts majors? Even more funny. Engineers learn to do math. You've demonstrated amply today the lack of ability your education gave you to look up a hotel name. Not too much credibility to discuss critical problem solving when your approach was cite a source, find it disputed your view, find another source, find it was wrong and lose your temper. Then go on a diatribe of envy.
Yep, those are skills I look for in board members. Sorry, that was a lie.
Curious Sam
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*sigh* So many of you screaming aloud that we must have prosecutions are making pronouncements and demands as if you all have full knowledge of the guilt and illegality of the actions of so many people that this frenzy has come to the cusp of McCarthyism; so many people have jumped right inside already. I beg yall to step outside of the tunnel vision of demanding the prosecution of someone, anyone at all cost-it is mass hysteria. Regardless of my leanings-everyone has them-lets walk through this together as calmly and rationally as we can, so that we may conclude what is the common good.
In this case, we know that we have incomplete information. Now, we do know that Bush cabinet members signed off on those actions and ran them by the Executive office, but neither perpetrate them. We know that two or three lawyers gave legal counsel approving the techniques as constitutional, but did not perpetrate them. We know that CIA interrogators perpetrated these acts, but we do not know which individuals did it.
Of these three groups, let’s find out what options are available and what would be the likely outcome of any possible prosecutions. We know with certainty that CIA interrogators will not be prosecuted; the consequences of any prosecution would almost certainly render the CIA impotent and worthy of being shuttered as an intelligence agency. Prosecution of the legal council is possible given the sentiments of the public and Obama officials; prosecution of the attorneys would set so a grave precedent that no attorney in the future would risk giving legal advice to a President for fear of prosecution by the next adm. The prospect of prosecuting the former executive leadership and cabinet members has been left unanswered by the current adm.; prosecuting former executive officials produces very little chilling effect on lower officers and attorneys, but the consequences of such a thing cannot be determined as there is no precedent.
So if you are Pres. Obama and the sec. of the Justice Dept. what do you do? Do you prosecute and live with the consequences or do you do nothing? Well, you cannot do nothing because it would be political suicide. So you decide to prosecute.
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I find so much well written, well thought out correspondence on this blog that I sometimes forget that I am just as likely to see the outer fringes of human thought.
You probably don't know who you are, but yes, I am talking about you. The likelihood that I am talking about you is in direct proportion to the incivility of your statements. Deranged people have more than usual difficulty keeping a civil tongue.
Now that that is off my chest - Have any of you (all) thought that it may be the liberals who bring down the Obama experiment, by insisting that the hated Bush administration be immolated en masse?
Obama has only so much time to demonstrate that he can be productive of the general good, before his future will be determined by the 2010 bi-election. If his coattails bring him more support in congress, much good can be achieved. If the republicans regain lost ground the opportunity will be lost for some years (measured in fours).
Opening a general investigation and trial of everyone who may have had a hand in allowing, condoning, ignoring, or participating in these extreme interrogation methods will completely distract the drama-press and the public for so long that the focus and support necessary to do what must be done, for the general good, can not happen.
It may be justice you are seeking, but it is not wise, and it is not good, either for the country and the world at large, or for any liberal agenda excepting that focused on the malicious destruction of your defeated enemies. That is not worthy of you, in my opinion, and it is not worthy of this opportunity or of our President. He was right in the beginning - they are defeated. Let them lie and molder.
KScurmudgeon
conservative turncoat
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219, I think that this whole thing is a no-win for Obama. If he does
prosecute Bush admin officials, then his entire term is going to be
dominated by a show trial. Furthermore, we haven't even gotten to
the real issue which is not torture. It is surveillance.
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Canard;
"If you loathe and distrust the BBC so much, then why listen to or view its programmes?"
It's always a good idea to know what the enemy is up to. I used to listen to Radio Moscow, even Radio Tirana. Now they are no longer the enemy. BBC has aligned itself with Islamic Extremism IMO. There seems to me to be much evidence for that. It is also aligned to a Continental European left wing position against the self interest of the British nation. Few in Britain seem to care. Like all Europeans, they are cowed by their government and its organs.
68 1/2
"Let me know how it works out if you are ever allowed to conduct an interview."
I only get to do that when an opening comes up in my department but, you'd be surprised at how many decisions I've either participated in or made myself in deciding whom to hire for a technical position. Leeds university by not convening an academic quality review panel and demanding that McIntosh either prove his assertion that flies in the face of known science in his claimed area of expertise or retract his statement, or failing that fire him, has demonstrated that it cannot or will not set high academic standards and enforce and maintain them among its instructors. Therefore, its diploma is of no value that I can see and the quality of the education anyone received there is suspect. Who knows how many more Andy McIntoshes teach there. I can't tell them how to run their school but nobody from the outside will tell me how my department should be run.
"How much does it burn to have Hillary at State?"
I'll bet she's madder than a wet hen but she dares not show it. She expected to be sitting in the Oval Office right now, instead she's a kind of flunky. Natanyahu will soon get to play head games with her. She's not on his level and he can subtly talk down to her and get away with it. They do not like each other and nobody will forget how she hugged and kissed Mrs. Arafat after Mrs. Arafat told some very viscious lies about Israel in Arabic. Hillary proved that day how easily duped she can be. She'll have to take a lot of guff from a lot of other people she doesn't like too. Being in a subordinate role does not strike me as the kind of position she would feel comfortable in. I wonder how long she can take it. Just wait until Obama sets her up as a "straw man" and then sells her out. I wonder if she'll tell him off before she quits.
British-sh
"I'm through with this."
Promises, promises.
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So you decided to prosecute, but who? You could sacrifice the legal counsel, or you could destroy a previous adm.'s legacy. You know that sacrificing people is wrong, but they gave bad legal advice that has been declared contrary to the constitution. So, you do not prosecute the previous adm.'s attorneys, but you allow Congress to impeach them from any Federal position that they hold.
The Justice Dept. then decides to prosecute several Bush officials, including the former Vice-President as there is precedent for prosecuting a Vice-President.
As Pres., you have been answering nothing but questions about the prosecutions for weeks or maybe months, and you cannot attend to your agenda; so What do you do?
You cannot let these prosecutions consume your presidency, so you Pardon the Bush officials-even Chaney. But that is not the end, because Democrats in Congress still want blood and you need their support in passing your legislation, so you allow Congressional hearings to be called where Chaney summarily commits perjury, is prosecuted again, and is sentenced to 3 years in a Federal Prison.
-This is just one way that this whole thing could end. It is crazy, but it is one conclusion that we cannot rule out if we continue down the path that we are on. (and sorry for the typos in the earlier post)
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#126 SamTyler1969,
You cannot be arrested, let alone tortured, unless there is probable cause.
-----------------------------------
Probable cause allows torture? Just tweaking. :)
Sam,
The Supreme Court found in HAMDI et al. v. RUMSFELD, and Rasul et al v. Bush, that petitioners had the right to habeas corpus. Taking the two cases together, it seems detentions are allowed due to the "Authorization for Use of Military Force" resolution passed by congress. The mistake by the Bush Administration was not allowing the detainees to contest their designation as "enemy combatant" in a Federal court or military tribunal. Assuming the government can affirm the "enemy combatant" status, it appears detainees can be held indefinitely, as long as the US military is engaged in hostilities with the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. It would seem probable cause has already been determined, based on the AUMF and the nature of their capture.
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219. At 05:06am on 26 Apr 2009, BienvenueEnLouisiana wrote:
*sigh* So many of you screaming aloud that we must have prosecutions are making pronouncements and demands as if you all have full knowledge of the guilt and illegality of the actions of so many people that this frenzy has come to the cusp of McCarthyism; so many people have jumped right inside already.
The Squirrel Party reports:
We are not entirely sure your analysis is altogether correct. The crux of the matter seems to us the confusion of what is "moral" and what is "legal". Had the US Congress ratified the relevant provisions of the UN Convention, we think it would have been a good deal simpler.
The questions that arise seem to us to be
1) Did the legal advice in those published opinions lead to a re-interpretation of provisions in the American constitution and law, and did they then lead to individuals breaking the law through their actions?
We are not sure what the legal remedy might be for the first. The second surely could be tested by prosecution in a court.
2) We believe it is a common principle in Western polities that an 'illegal' order need not, indeed should not, be obeyed. We do not believe that this does not apply to CIA personnel as civilians. If it does not, there is a lacuna here in law that needs to be addressed.
(One looks here at the employment of 'civilian contractors' which has always appeared to me to be a device to potentially exploit such a lacuna.)
3) Expediency is not an argument that can be employed. In moral terms, whether a government agency is prevented from behaving illegally (or immorally) and that results in a disruption of its activities, that is irrelevant. Otherwise, the risk is the same immoralities or illegalities are perpetuated. That has to some extent been the history of the CIA.
The argument that people would be deterred from offering advice if they were to be prosecuted or publicly held to account if it was wrong has been used in Britain, and seems to us to be entirely fallacious. To argue that is to argue that advisers should not bear any responsibility for their advice, which is clearly wrong. It would only have the effect of making people less eager to provide an opinion or analysis that supported a transient political purpose, which would surely be a good thing.
All this could have been controlled and avoided a long time ago. Neither Bush nor Rumsfeld made any secret of what they were proposing; Congress never examined it, just tamely supported it. The opportunity for public opposition was either not taken, or the public was cowed.
We do not see (as outsiders) that the 'Special Prosecutor' route after the nonsense of Kenneth Starr is viable any more; the process of impeachment has similarly been brought into disrepute; a Congressional inquiry with politics so polarised in the US, and forthcoming elections, would be compromised from the beginning.
One supposes that if Obama is really a clever as he appears to be, he will come up with some sort of solution. We think he'll have his work cut out though. A few interrogators thrown to the wolves, promises of new guidelines, maybe even a few words about ethics, and that will be it. Until the next time?
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#222. MarcusAureliusII: Reference the BBC: "It's always a good idea to know what the enemy is up to."
Did you always consider them "the enemy" or have you always believed them to be so? From what you write it appears that you have prejudged them.
"Few in Britain seem to care. Like all Europeans, they are cowed by their government and its organs."
Once again, such broad statements - how would you know that few in Britain care? You've never been there but have an active dislike for the country. I think you will find that, come the next General Election, the present government will be removed and replaced by some whose thoughts and beliefs are quite contrary to "New" Labour. Even a worm turns.
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194. Richard_SM,
What a weak, transparent response. You falsely claim I "wanted to change the topic," and then you do precisely that. Shifting the focus onto me and onto Israel will not distract attention from the fact that you have no case to argue. You made the claim that Roxana Saberi would be better off jailed by Iran than America and then proceeded to ignore all the evidence I brought to dispute that claim. Most telling is the fact that you ignored the sheer brutality of the treatment of Zahra Kazemi, even though her case has striking parallels to that of Roxana Saberi:
*Both female journalists
*Both holding dual nationality of Iran and a Western country
*Both tried for "spying" for the West.
The courageous doctor who revealed that Zahra Kazemi had been brutally raped and tortured to death by the Iranians managed to get out of Iran and is now living in Canada:
http://activistchat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5491&sid=7729e8825b4f9c7fd8d276e63a4e9af2
As I indicated in an earlier comment, it is possible that the Iranians were careful with Saberi in light of the Kazemi case and the fact that the eyes of the world are on Iran over its nuclear ambitions and its declared intention to destroy Israel. Still, her trial lasted one day and her lawyer was not allowed to be present. Is she really a spy? It appears that there is a gross miscarriage of justice here, but one in which you show not the slightest interest, except to base your "case" on what might have happened to her had she been tried for spying by the Americans.
Have a look at your own comment at no. 201. It seems to be quite fashionable among you people on this site to bash others while ignoring your own faults. I suppose you will try to claim now that you were on topic in your comments on this thread.
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I thought Obama was supposed to fix the economy. The president of Europe is working hard to destroy America. You anti torture folks let me ask did the terrorist care when people had to jump out of the world trade center? But I guess that's okay? What about when they beheaded daniel pearl. Since America is so evil maybe we should stop sharing info with our europeans neighbors and let you go it alone.
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Canard;
In the 1970s when I listened to BBC on shortwave, it was a very credible source of news. Today, it's difficult and at times even impossible to separate where news reporting ends and BBC's opinions begin. Their standards of journalism have reached a point where every statement they make is suspect pending verification by a more reliable independent source. Those are also getting harder to find but two which immediately come to mind are PBS/NPR and another is C-SPAN. These in conjunction with specialized media entities such as National Geographic, History Channel, Discovery Channel, and FNN/CNBC are far superior in every conceivable way to BBC as media giving reliable, accurate, in depth, objective, and expert reporting and informed views. BBC pales by comparison.
Do Brits care about how their government and media have usurped their power to excercise control over how they are governed? No, as evidinced by the fact that no matter how egregious, all you see in the way of reaction is a collective shrug of the shoulders. Consider the fact that not only was there no referendum on Lisbon which would have ceded more sovereignty to the EU, but the Prime Minister wasn't even required to submit it to his rubber stamp Parliament, he simply could enact it by fiat. What has changed since the divine right of kings? Nothing except now instead of King Charles or King George, Britain has a King Gordon. That's the way it's always been.
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199,
- "ALL of BBC's reporters are anti-Semitic and Anti-American. I've yet to see one who didn't reveal sooner or later that deep down he wasn't."
I'll ask again: Do you read what you write before you spew it?"I've yet to see one who didn't reveal he wasn't?" Is English your first language?
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How refreshing to return from a pleasant weekend away to find MAII has been making an even bigger ass of himself than usual.
I'll only bring up one issue (so many to choose from) and it's Marcus's old fave, the ArchBish and Sharia law (third outing for this one this week I think). First of all, what was said (back in Feb 2008) was that Sharia Law could be an option for Muslims in the UK. However the main point of the statement seems to have been to highlight that Sharia law is only ever reported sensationally in the media, and that:
"nobody in their right mind would want to see in this country the kind of inhumanity that's sometimes been associated with the practice of the law in some Islamic states; the extreme punishments, the attitudes to women as well".
I know that MAII is never interested in context, but just in case any impressionable purpose stumbled across his outpourings...
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crosseyes, the context is that when Sharia law written and interpreted by religious clerics supervenes civil law written by elected officials and interpreted by their appointed judges for anyone living in the UK, the last pretense of democracy there will have evaporated.
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#232. You would be correct, if that law was imposed by said religious clerics.
If on the other hand (and this is a massive if, because it's very unlikely to happen) aspects of religious law were adopted via the standard means (political decisions, previous rulings etc) then that would be entirely democratic.
The point here is that you have chosen to blindly (mis)quote one person on numerous occasions to make a point that is the opposite of the one he made. I'd love to debate the intricacies of this, and whether it was a wise thing for Rowan to say, but it's a totally pointless exercise with you.
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This points out why a nation that does not have a clearly spelled out constitution which guarantees rights that cannot be violated by the passage of law and where changing that constitution is very difficult and time consuming as well has having a time limit on each try is a nation which does not have a true democracy. This would allow the government to rescind whatever rights British citizens think they have because the momentary politics of Parliament dictate it. I'm not talking about emergency measures in times of national crisis such as war as we have seen in the US with the Patriot Act, I'm talking about the normal course of legislative action in normal times. With no objective external standard to judge laws by, the rule of law is at the whims of a single political party in a single legislative body. That fits my definition of dictatorship. It's the way they do it in China too.
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Ok, so your idea of a perfect democracy is one that cannot change its laws to adapt to changes in society, new needs etc. Good for you. I prefer to vote for governments that at least attempt to make changes that I agree with.
I also note you're persevering with your policy of changing tack when proved wrong.
So how long will the Patriot Act be in place for?
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213 Whoo-hoo! I finally earned a MA insulting moniker! That means that I'm in the best of company.
As for a liberal arts education: the fact that you think that a technical degree qualifies someone to pronounce upon or even set policy is laughable. Logical thinking is only the first step- without a knowledge of history, culture, political science, and, especially, ethics there is no foundation upon which to form sound, rational decisions.
Thus our adventures in the Middle East- charge in, damn-the-torpedoes-full-speed-ahead, with no thought to what we were stepping into. No different than the last 100+ years of American foreign policy in Latin America, or our nearly 400 years of treatment of Native Americans.
That's what Hatfield & McCoy University gets you.
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Oh dear poor Marcus. How long have you been thinking the BBC organisation was your enemy? (#222)
What other enemies do you believe you have?
Have you spoken to anyone about these feelings?
Perhaps you could ask them if they'd let you do some gardening this afternoon. That would be nice. Or perhaps you'd like to do some painting?
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Paul and Via Media,
It would be best not agitate him any more. We've been having a discussion on the philosophical questions of torture. Poor Marcus has been arguing something about the Waldorf Hotel, he's talking about the impeaching the President, and watching out for the Redcoats!
Its so sad. Let him have a little rest.
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#222
Oh dear Marcus,
So you would reject any candidate from a university because one member of faculty is a bit off base? A little bit irrational given most kids won't have been taught by him and even if they were there is no reason to believe his religious beliefs tainted his teaching, especially since the UK University system has a whole set of checks and balances to prevent that happening.
So by rejecting candidates based on this you are either:
Documenting that as your reason and as such exposing yourself to a lawsuit for bias
Documenting some reason you made up and lying. Both unethical and immoral, and:
Passing up the opportunity to employ talent based on an irrational reason.
Well done, model middle manager. Not to say I have not had to deal with folks who work like this. In the long run the end up lonely, unemployed and unhappy.
#232
Since that has not happened and it would contravene the European Convention on human rights, no real need to worry
#234
Tortuous Marcus. So not having a constitution but having rights affirmed by international treaty means Parliament cannot pass laws to take away folks rights, in fact they have to bevoted on then ratified by multiple nations, as opposed to having a constitution which you claim the President can suspend if he feels like it, and which can be changed by law at any time, means Europeans are less protected by law. Huge leap then to that makes European democracy second class? LOLOLOLOL.
Keep going dude, we'll have to call you butter soon, because this weekend you're on a roll.
Amused Sam
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crosseyes
"Ok, so your idea of a perfect democracy is one that cannot change its laws to adapt to changes in society"
Not beyond the limits of its constitution. It cannot impose Sharia law because one year those in Parliament think that will get them re-elected. It also cannot impose its laws selectively, on members of one religion for example and not another. Your concept of democracy is badly flawed. Study the United States Constitution. It will instruct you on the best devised democracy human minds have yet invented. Then study the proposed EU Constitution. It will instruct you on one of the worst.
"How long will the Patriot act be in place for?" I don't know. Until the elected members of Congress decide as a body that the protections from foreign attack it offers in the war being waged against the United States no longer pose a significant threat...or until those protections are deemed inadequate and something more Draconian is required instead.
Viacom;
"Logical thinking is only the first step- without a knowledge of history, culture, political science, and, especially, ethics there is no foundation upon which to form sound, rational decisions."
I didn't say a technical degree is sufficient, I said it is necessary because it teaches the indespensible skill of problem solving through logical processes Bachelor of Arts educations do not. Necessary but not sufficient, that is part of the logical thinking process too. Attending the Feely-Touchy I'm Okay, You're Okay University of English Lit, Poly Sci, Art Appreciation, and Third World Music does not prepare anyone for anything...except a mediocre life as a flunky manager or a corrupt politician. That's what French University graduates typically aspire to by the way. They are the quintessential Bull*&%! of Arts output. Their best selling book a few years back was "Bonjour Paresse" which means hello laziness. It could have been subtitled; how to have a successful career in the corporte world or government without ever having to do a useful lick of work even one day in your life. These are the kind of people who have been running our world these last few decades. That is why it has finally imploded...through their incompetence. They clearly don't know what they are doing. In fact they are so bad at it, they don't even know that they don't know.
S&M, you are not my enemy, just a very minor irritant I barely take notice of. Even an occasional gnat gets more of my attention than you do.
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68 1/2
"So you would reject any candidate from a university because one member of faculty is a bit off base? A little bit irrational given most kids won't have been taught by him and even if they were there is no reason to believe his religious beliefs tainted his teaching, especially since the UK University system has a whole set of checks and balances to prevent that happening."
Do you twist my words and meaning because it is the only way you can win your argument or is it that you just can't read? That is not what I said at all. I reject Leeds University because it has demonstrated publically and conclusively that it cannot or will not establish high academic standards among its faculty and enforce them. It is this failure alone which casts doubt on those it confers its degrees on.
Andrew McIntosh's religious beliefs are irrelevant. So is the fact that he made his statement in the service of those beliefs. What is relevant is the fact that the statement was factually incorrect and bore directly on his area of supposed expertise, the area he professes. McIntosh is a professor of thermodynamics in the mechanical engineering department. This aspect of thermodynamics usually deals with machines where heat is transferred such as steam turbines used in electrical power plants and with refrigerating and air conditioning systems. However, students studying other areas such as chemistry, chemical engineering, other engineerig disciplines and other sciences such as physics might take his courses and be incorrectly instructed in ways that could lead to errors later on in their working careers because he delved into an area he clearly knows little or nothing about, chemical thermodynamics, That deals with heat transfer in chemical reactions. This is not like liberal arts where one opinion is about as good and worthless as another. McIntosh represents a threat to the high standards scientists and engineers must adhere to in order to perform their tasks successfully. Failing to enforce those standards costs the University all credibility. He and the University that employs him are unacceptable.
S&M
"Let him have a little rest."
Don't worry about me. If Gulliver could take on all of his Lilliputians, I shouldn't have any problems here...and I don't. I could do this with one eye closed and one hand tied behind my back...just more slowly :-)
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240 So, it's logical to condemn and despise an entire nationality- or rather, a continent's worth of nationalities- despite having never traveled there? And when your only source of info on them is a rather selective reading of shallow, superficial newsrags and broadcasting?
It's logical to talk about nuking another nation as a serious foreign policy option?
Fascinating!
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Oh, and for the record, "maroon" originally referred to runaway black slaves who set up their own subsistence lifestyles in Central and South America and the Caribbean. In the American South I believe it was corrupted to mean any black, hence (according to the racist wisdom of the time) a person of lesser intelligence.
Much as I love Bugs Bunny, he did get a bit racist at times.
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109. SportsFan and 129 British-ish
The line is:
Capt. Louis Renault, played by Claude Rains: "I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here."
Emil, the Croupier, played by Marcel Dario: "Your winnings, sir."
Film buff Foreigner.
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199. MAII
"I wonder what Bart Simpson would say. He's the one who first called the French cheese eating surrender monkeys."
Let's give credit where credit is due.
A usually reliable source tells me that the reference to the French as "Cheese eating surrender monkeys" actually originates with the expatriot Scottish school janitor-gardener-caretaker Willie.
Och, aye.
Caledonian Foreigner
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200 David.
"Well, of course you know this means war."
Usually I agree with you, but not so much here. Mel Blanc was a giant.
Bugs Bunny represented the America's self-image of the American everyman in the middle of the 20th Century. Some of the dialogue, which was clearly not aimed at children, was brilliant, and sparkles even now. "What's Bogart got that I ain't got?"
Termite Terrace was a mad place, but a clever and creative mad place.
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190. David
"A maroon is very bright and lights us the sky."
... and is particularly important because it shines in the dark, whereas the sun only shines in the day-time.
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188. At 10:38pm on 25 Apr 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
186, staphylococcus aureus.
The way ubermensch harps on Israel, you harp on Europe. Since you both always sing the same song you are unteresting and - boring, boring, boring....
-------
Marby the answer is pretty obvious.
They are the same person. take your time.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_identity_disorder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia
seems both these problems can happen to the same people.
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241 MATT
you never in over a year won one argument.
Never go near it.
Either of you.
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#241
Oh dear marcus,
There you go again. You now need to prove that Prof McIntosh has done what you say, taught the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics in a way that would cause a student to make a mistake. That is a huge leap from a debate with Dawkins.
The Creationist interpretation of that Law does not change it, merely draws an incorrect conclusion from its application. That's the thing about scientific Laws.
Prof McIntosh's views are therefore irrelevant. As are the views of any engineer when not bolting something together (for someone else). Were his views being included in the University's life sciences courses then I would agree with you. They are not. You need to show some proof for your assertion. Start with the phone book?
Still Laughing Sam
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199,
Do you read what you write before you spew it? I ask again because it seems you've used a double-negative unwittingly (witlessly?), and I wondered whether English was your first language...
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vi-agra
"240 So, it's logical to condemn and despise an entire nationality- or rather, a continent's worth of nationalities- despite having never traveled there? And when your only source of info on them is a rather selective reading of shallow, superficial newsrags and broadcasting?"
What the hell, why don't you join the rest of the people here who don't know what they are talking about. You've got plenty of company, I can watch you all in one group. Uh bub...hmmm...I don't know quite how to break this to you but.....I LIVED IN FRANCE FOR NEARLY TWO YEARS!!!!! There, that's better :-)
68 1/2, who bolted you together? When it came time to tighten the nut, he must have been on his coffee break.
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242. At 3:11pm on 26 Apr 2009, Via-Media wrote:
"240 So, it's logical to condemn and despise an entire nationality- or rather, a continent's worth of nationalities. . .It's logical to talk about nuking another nation as a serious foreign policy option?"
It's all a matter of degree.
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253. At 4:19pm on 26 Apr 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
I LIVED IN FRANCE FOR NEARLY TWO YEARS!!!!!
Yes. I know. 35 years ago. Funny choice; wouldn't you have liked Paraguay or Chile better?Was it the CS gas that did it, or getting beaten up by the CRS? Did they deport you, or did you leave of your own accord? Just curious.
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#253
Marcus,
Insult again? You admit defeat so easily, it's hilarious.
Still Laughing Even Now Sam
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The squirrels were wondering: is there any chance of this thread getting back on topic, or, if it's irretrievable, and that dreary and dismal pair won't shut up, should those of us with something to say go back to "Dissenting voices. . ." instead?
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On Dresden:
180. Gary: your link to the Guardian didn't work.
140. Amerika 143, 165 Simon; 161, 175, 179 Sam; 177 Marbles.
Dresden was a rail hub, but not a particularly large or important one. Dresden was not a major manufacturing center, although it had some manufacturing.
The bombings took place on February 13 - 14, 1945. The ability of the German air defenses was by that point greatly diminished. For example, on the night of February 13, the Luftwaffe managed to scramble only 27 aircraft. Of 1164 RAF heavy bombers sent out in the night-time raid on February 13, only 5 were brought down by enemy action. The Allies had not merely air superiority, but air supremacy. Overwhelming air supremacy.
Dresden was jam-packed with refugees fleeing the Russians. In the three day firestorm that ensued, some estimate 115,000 died, some 130,000, some 150,000. The 110 m.p.h. winds drew people in, and they were suffocated and then incinerated. The temperatures in the center of the firestorm were pyrolytic. The death toll will never be known. Certainly it was far beyond either Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
By contrast to the 1000 bomber raids on Dresden, the RAF sent 235 bombers (Lancasters and Mosquitoes) against the critically important synthetic oil plant at Bohlen, and 166 Lancasters against the oilfield at Hemmingstedt.
It was total war. The German raid on Coventry is often cited: "they started it". German conduct on the eastern front had been merciless. They had exterminated civilians by the millions in the death camps. The Dresden raid was not out of scale with the raid on Hamburg July 24 - 28, 1943.
Yet even then, it is hard to look at the Dresden raid and not be uncomfortable.
The Hamburg raid occurred while the outcome of the war was still in doubt. Hamburg was a target of huge strategic importance. German air defenses were still very potent. The same cannot be said of Dresden.
Any justification that rests upon "they started it", or "well, we're not as bad as them" (because they murdered millions), leads along a path of moral relativism and false equivalence that ought not to give any comfort to those who believed the war was fought in the hope of building a better world. (More on this below). One wrong does not justify another.
Dresden was not a war crime, but it must surely be close to the limit of what can be justified in wartime. The test in wartime is not the reasonable man standard, because war is, by definition, outside what reasonable men do.
Total war cannot be judged by peacetime standards. But it is not an excuse for a democracy entirely to throw away its moral compass, either. If we do so, then we are no better than the Nazis, no better than Pol Pot, no better than Idi Amin; and not much better than Chairman Mao or Joe Stalin. On the subject of total war, Sherman in one context, and Lee in a slightly different context, had it right. But that does not change the fact that Dresden was a shameful and horrible business.
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#257
Ish,
I may be dismal but Iam not dreary. I have particularly colorful Benihama shirt, bright orange shorts and green teva's on. Off to the barbecue, its a gorgeous day here. First day of summer, the bees are flying, the trees are in bloom and the loonies are on the internet. All is right with the world.
Happy Sam
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Foreigner (258), Well said.
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Continuing on Dresden
In earlier times, the civilian death toll, and the death toll in general in wars was comparatively small, and distinctly miniscule by 20th Century standards. Even the death toll in Napoleonic times was relatively small by comparison. The first really "modern" war in that regard is the US civil war.
However, it is also true that in earlier times the fate of "civilians", known in those days more often as peasants or serfs, was pretty bleak, too.
While not many were killed in the actual fighting, and while there was not the widescale razing of population centers that occured in WWII, war was frequently accompanied by those other horsemen: pestilence and famine.
Then again, while the starting point may have been "nasty, brutish and short", twice awful is still awful.
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261. At 5:20pm on 26 Apr 2009, Interestedforeigner wrote:
"In earlier times, the civilian death toll, and the death toll in general in wars was comparatively small, and distinctly miniscule by 20th Century standards."
Sack of Beziers, 1209. 10,000 killed. Population of the whole of France, about 10million. I loathe Simon de Montfort.
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259. At 5:14pm on 26 Apr 2009, SamTyler1969 wrote:
#257
Didn't say you were either. I was referring to the emperor without clothes and his untruthful alter ego.
(What are tevas?)
Those colours . .. are you expecting to get pollinated?
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213 MAII you wrote:
"Liberal arts educations are nothing but a pile of BS. An education in science or engineering forces you to learn how to think because it presents you with an endless stream of problems to solve. Once you learn how to think, you can study anything on your own, you don't need a school to teach you anymore, you have all the necessary intellectual tools for the rest of your life. It is especially easy now with so much available on the internet."
Wow.
As previous posts may have revealed, I am a scientist. I have been a scientist for a very long time.
I have read stupid things on this blog. I have read things on this blog rooted in an ignorance so profound as to be scary. I have read repetitive postings that reveal obsessive behaviour, immature thinking, shallow thinking. I have read intolerant dogma that makes me wonder if our school systems are beyond hope.
But this paragraph stands alone.
Do you really believe that there is only one kind of thinking?
Do you really believe that an education in Engineering teaches you how to think?
Do you really think that solving all the problems at the end of chapter six in the fluids text teaches you how to solve real-life problems?
The idea that study in one discipline renders the value of study in any other discipline somehow valueless or redundant is so vacuous as to be breathtaking. One of the great benefits of an engineering education is to gain an appreciation of the value of knowledge and learning generally, and to teach a respect for learning in other disciplines.
This is a smugness and intolerance of knowledge that can only be held with the profound arrogance that dwells and wallows in ignorance.
And that someone, supposedly with a university degree, in Engineering no less, could hold these views ...
Wow.
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#147 "God how Britain survived this long is beyond me."
That's what Hitler said. That's what our enemies have been saying for the best part of a thousand years. And yet.......here we are. Annoying - isn't it?
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228. Joe
You aren't by any chance related to MAII are you?
The logical flaw in your argument is that your conclusion that torture of prisoners is acceptable is based on the assumption that wrongdoing by an abhorent regime sets the standard for behaviour in a democracy.
That is not the standard, even in wartime. We do not measure our conduct by what is acceptable to the likes of Kim Jong-Il, Joe Stalin, Joseph Goebbels, Pol Pot, Idi Amin and so on.
The conduct of the state is determined by what is reasonable in a free and democratic society. We test our procedures by what it would be acceptable to impose upon an innocent person if it turned out that our assumption that these people are "terrorists" turns out to be incorrect.
Here's an illustration that shows where logic like that underlying your comment is faulty:
In WWII both the US and Canada interned significant numbers of ethnic Japanese, and confiscated their property. This is often justified, or minimized, by saying that as compared to the treatment of US and Canadian prisoners of war by the Japanese, the treatment of, e.g., Japanese Canadians was relatively benign.
That sounds not bad, somehow, until you realize that in both cases the people in question were Canadian or American citizens.
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184. MK
There were no ovens at Dresden, unless you mean the bakery ovens in Slaughterhouse V.
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220. KS
Share your views.
I was uneasy about Obama during the campaign, but so far with very few exceptions his actions has been a really pleasant, positive surprise.
The other day he announced a rail road policy initiative that was exactly what is needed. Who is giving him advice on rail policy? Whoever it is, they know what they are talking about and he is doing the right thing. The plans don't yet include through service linking New York and Chicago (the old and formerly very profitable NYC and PRR routes) or Washington and Chicago via Pittsburgh (B&O, C&O) but you can see that this is the next step.
Yet we don't hear a word of that, and instead we get blog topics on torture.
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265, keep on surviving, HabitualHero.
Sam, IF, aerial bombing in WWII was so inaccurate that only half of the
bombs dropped landed within a mile of the aiming point, and bombing
formations frequently could not find or get to their aiming point.
In the 1990s it was disclosed by the Germans that they had stolen the
design of the Norden bombsight, and considered it completely worthless.
And, while I am on the fence about the ethics of the Dresden raid,
there were factories there, including one producing poison gas, so
it can hardly be said that the area did not include targets of military
value.
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Giving advice is not illegal. Legal opinion is just that; opinion. No crime has been committed and, therefore, nobody is guilty of violating any part of the U.S. code. The U.S. Army field manual is not the law of the United States of America. Stepping outside the bounds of the field manual has no legal bearing upon anything and is not any sort of crime.
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262 Brit-ish
Yes. Agreed.
Ever read about the Black Prince? He was a real sweetheart, too.
You might also have cited the St. Bartholemew's Day Massacre.
There were lots of these, and the 30 years wars was one example of ethnic cleansing after another (except is was religious cleansing).
But in the 20th century we go from 10,000's being killed to millions being killed. Even then, some people aren't satisfied with mere mass butchery. Machetes? How primitive and slow. Bullets? How Stalinist, and too expensive. No, they have to think outside the box. They have to take it to a new level by applying the then most modern techniques of railway transport and mass production to reduce unit costs. The Wahnsee conference ...
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British-sh
"Yes. I know. 35 years ago. Funny choice; wouldn't you have liked Paraguay or Chile better?"
Don't know, never been there.
"Was it the CS gas that did it, or getting beaten up by the CRS? Did they deport you, or did you leave of your own accord? Just curious.""
Actually they wanted me to stay (probably so I would keep spending money there.) I could hardly have stood it another day though, I could hardly wait to get out of Europe and back to the US. I didn't like it there. Worst of all were the people. IMO, by and large, they're no good. When I lived among them, I understood why the history of Europe is largely a litany of wars.
BTW, didn't you say you were going to leave? I knew you wouldn't keep your promise. Just like all of the governments in the EU, they never do what they say they will either. The growth and stability pact in Maastrict, the CO2 cutbacks in Kyoto. You're all the same.
If;
"Do you really believe that an education in Engineering teaches you how to think?
Do you really think that solving all the problems at the end of chapter six in the fluids text teaches you how to solve real-life problems?"
Yes, that is exactly the point. The repetitive act of solving problems by organizing data you have, using processes such as equations you know, searching for those you need that you don't have, seperating the essential from the trivial, and working from where you are to where you want to get to is the real gist of an education in science or engineering. It is the essence of being able to think, to reason. Long after all the details of each particular course is forgotten, the method stays with you forever. It is hard for people like you and me to realize that those whose minds are not trained that way do not have this facility. They cannot systematically solve problems, they often can't solve them at all. I'm not advocating a technocracy but you have to admit that the world as it's been run by lawyers and MBAs who got their advanced degrees after a BA and became the politicians and businessmen calling the shots have made a horrible mess of it, one that may not even be fixable. If you've ever worked with technicians, you know what FBB means.
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#271 Interestedforeigner:
"But in the 20th century we go from 10,000's being killed to millions being killed. Even then, some people aren't satisfied with mere mass butchery. Machetes? How primitive and slow. Bullets? How Stalinist, and too expensive. No, they have to think outside the box. They have to take it to a new level by applying the then most modern techniques of railway transport and mass production to reduce unit costs. The Wahnsee conference ..."
Let's not forget Rome's annihilation of the Gauls, comparable with the efforts of the 20th century, and of course don't forget the Mongols. And as has been mentioned earlier past armies lived off the land, often meaning that although the direct casualties may have been lower the civilian populous simply swapped immolation for starvation.
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#99 - british-ish
"Clearly MAII spent some time in Wisconsin, but had to leave."
He's good at that. Spent some time in France too but had to leave.
Visa violation, wasn't it Marcus?
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#246. Interestedforeigner: Ref Bugs Bunny: "Mel Blanc was a giant."
Actually, just the voice, or rather, "a thousand voices".
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#272
Marcus,
How silly. Methodical analytical solving is one very narrow definition of thought. You don't need to have a science or engineering training, you can easily pick it up in business. Business people also don't try to dress these methods up as something fancy and inpenetrable, but simplify to the basics to prove that any fool can do it. Then have any fool do it. Take Six Sigma, exactly the process you describe and taught in 2 days or less.
Your other flaw, and I like this in you, is you assume that this is the only form of intelligence. And that it is preparation for leadership. It is neither.
The thing that you seem to fail to grasp is most of those people you denegrate have that skill, along with a whole bunch of others including motivational, financial, economic, negotiating and influencing skills. They just don't use it every day. Why? Partly because they don't need to, they have people to do that. Partly because that isn't their role. Their role is to set strategy and policy, understand the impact of their decisions on the organizations stakeholders (including shareholders, customers, vendors, employees and the community) and understand the behaviors that will arise. The big questions.
The little questions can be left for the little people. Like the engineering department.
Leader Sam
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#263
Ish,
Apologies. Tevas are sort of hi tech rubber sandals for walking. Or hanging out in. The only acceptable open toed fashion item for folks who don't have a pedicure. And cute toes.
Fashionista Sam
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277, Sam, as a Birkenstockista, I must register a formal complaint with
the Tevaland embassy. Nonetheless, sometimes us Birkenstockistas temporarily
defect to the Teva cause when we deign to get our toes wet.
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228
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/629/629/7036068.stm
I'd pay for you to be made to jump.
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277 interesting enough the little triangle plastic bits on those Tevas, that hold the bits togeather can rub and cause bigger blisters than being bare footed.
I recomend cutting the plastic off immediately and replacing with some parachute cord (tie knot on outside)
I suppose it must be cheaper to use the plastic but not as comfortable.
274 it was not a visa problem. it was the pesky school kids taking the piss out of him.
what with walking around in his purple robe way before purple was in.
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Marcus do you still believe that houses in france have 12 ft doorways.
One of your more sane points in the past.
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"Actually they wanted me to stay"
Marcus we Know you are lying on this. No one has ever said that to you.
ACTUALLY
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282
to continue with the people that do not say stay, I would think that when even your other Identity doesn't think you worth arguing with, you are pretty screwed.
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#277
Guns,
Are you sure you don't have the cute toe exclusion working for you?
Inquisitive Sam
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68 1/2
"Business people also don't try to dress these methods up as something fancy and inpenetrable, but simplify to the basics to prove that any fool can do it. Then have any fool do it"
Is that how you got to be a multi-millionaire....in Zimbabwe dollars?
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284, Sam, people are so shocked when I walk into a business meeting
with my Birkenstocks that they don't even notice that my toes aren't cute.
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#285,
Marcus,
Actually yes. And US $, Euro's and British Pounds.
Back to my beer can chicken.
Chef Sam
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68 1/2
What's your favorite vintage of Dom Perignon with that? I'm torn between the 1988 and the 1990 myself.
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ref #178
Are you refering to the judge in Spain who takes upon himself to intefere in other countries business. Spian AG (or equivilent) shut this clown down.
Why does he not go after real western violators like the Castro Brothers, Hugo Chavez and Evo Morales.
Could it be he only want to go after moderates and conservative.
Spain you are finally showing some backbone after your cowardly leader Zapero ran away and kissed the terrorist feet.
Don't let this judge ruin the relationship the way Zapero did.
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#288
Marcus,
I don't drink it. It's too pretentious. I recommend Bollinger RD 1990.
With Barbecue on a sunny afternoon I recommend Dogfish Head 90 minute IPA.
Oenophile Sam
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269 Guns.
Good to hear from you.
Actually, the British made an analysis at the start of the war and determined that only half of their bombs were falling within five miles of their targets.
This was to change. The Germans used, in essence, two different variations of Lorenz beams for blind bombing, one of which, the knickebein, (I believe) was used to target the Ford truck plant in the infamous Coventry raid. It allowed a release point accuracy on the order of 50 - 100 M. The British devised suitable counter-measures and soon rendered this system ineffective.
The invention of the cavity magnetron by the British led to at least four signal advances.
First, it permitted the development of "Gee", a blind bombing system that had a theoretical release point accuracy of a few centimeters. Its maximum range ran conveniently beyond the gigantic Krupp works at Essen.
Second, it permitted the development of maritime patrol radar that could obtain echos from U-boat superstructure. The tables then tipped decisively in favour of the long range Sunderlands, Catalinas, and Liberators of coastal command.
Third, it permitted the development of the American SCR 720 (need to check this) Airborne Interception radar, which was the finest of its type used in the war.
Fourth, it permitted the develpoment of the look-down H2S radar which could "see" the landscape sufficiently well to distinguish bodies of water from land, and built up areas from fields or forests.
Not coincidentally, although it had been in service for some time, the first really big raid using H2S was at Hamburg. Hamburg's waterfront produced a relatively crisp image on the H2S screen, and thus good accuracy as a navigational landmark. The jamming tactic of Window (the dropping of millions of radar dipoles to blind the German Freya and Wurzburg sets) was used for the first time at Hamburg. The combined result of H2S and Window at Hamburg on July 24 to 28, 1943 was cataclysmic. Read Adolf Galland's memoirs "The First and the Last"
H2S did not have the theoretical accuracy of Gee, but it was unlimited in range, could not be jammed, and pretty much guaranteed an accuracy within a few hundred meters, at most. If the pathfinders could mark within a few hundred meters, the random dispersion of the main bomber force bombing on the markers was almost certain to saturate the target area. Ref.: Instruments of Darkness by Alfred Price. There is also a book "A race on the edge of Time", not very well written, but interesting in parts nonetheless.
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272 MAII.
Well, although I have a very good understanding of the point you are making, I believe it is nonetheless incorrect. Three points -
First, legal reasoning, for example, is very different from the scientific method, but it is no less valid. Not all problems are equally amenable to solution by the scientific method, particularly indeterminate problems, or problems requiring an ability to deal with deliberate ambiguity. Problems of this nature abound in international diplomacy.
Second, one of my really big heroes is a guy named C.D. Howe. He was at one time appointed dean of Engineering at Dalhousie University in Halifax, and later went on to be "Minister of Everything" in the King cabinet during WWII. An outstandingly competent and capable man. A man with a very broad, vully rounded education.
Third, rather than having a technocrat in charge, I say as a scientist that I would not want someone in charge who lacks a broad and deep reading of the humanitites, and history in particular. Science is good, but without an understanding of history, it poses huge dangers. Political power is about the art of the possible. It requires judgment and wisdom. That takes context and perspective. Perspective comes from reading history and literature. A lot.
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291, IF, good to hear from you as well.
While the radar developments that you mention were in use by the time
of the Dresden raid, there remains the result of the raid, which was
widespread devastation. And, after all, it was a firebombing raid, which
was a technique specifically designed to destroy urban centers.
One can hardly criticize the British for favoring this technique,
since the same tactic had been used in a somewhat less effective way
on them earlier in the war. So, it may have been justified in the
minds of Bomber Command on that basis.
On the other hand, there were military considerations involved.
The Germans were in the process of transferring units to their eastern
front, and some historians make the case that the intent of the raid was
to disrupt this transport activity. If I had been in charge, I would
have said "so what?" But, this is easy to do in hindsight.
So, it is hard to determine exactly what the intent of the raid was.
A few hundred heavy bombers of that era would destroy targets over
a wide area, regardless of the accuracy of the targeting systems in
use, and the planners of the raid would have known this.
But, if their target was the railroad system, then they would not have
had any other options available to them, as Dresden was too far away
from any fighter-bomber bases to have been attacked by them.
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#292
IF,
If i may, I would add a working knowledg of psychology as well. Being able to read and control your own emotions, initially, and then read and predict the reactions of others is critical if you are to gte the best from individuals and teams.
Great post.
Sam
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293 gunsandreligion/291. Interestedforeigner
Like it or not, it was also conceived as a "terror" raid. (How some people who post here will crow over me saying that.) Which, of course, did not work. (A lesson which apparently has still to be learnt in some quarters.) But the post-war generations in both countries have had to come to terms with it, and we're friends now.
I can't really see the relevance here , except that a country and a people can survive an evil or a wrong that is done in their name without their society disintegrating or their standing irrecoverable. So I would have thought a few prosecutions or inquiry into torture would be survivable.
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68 1/2
"Marcus,
How silly. Methodical analytical solving is one very narrow definition of thought."
There are others. Tea leaves. Ouija boards. Astrologers. Looks like Obama is using the popularity poll method. Should GM go bankrupt or shouldn't it? What does the latest Gallop poll say?
If;
"Well, although I have a very good understanding of the point you are making, I believe it is nonetheless incorrect. Three points -
First, legal reasoning, for example, is very different from the scientific method, but it is no less valid."
Once upon a time the state legislature of Indiana as I recall passed and the governor signed a law saying that henceforth the value of pi shall be exactly 3. Unfortunately none of the circles in Indiana complied with the law and refused to adjust the ratio of their circumferences to their diameters to conform. Perhaps the circles should have been prosecuted. Don't you think it merited an investigating committe and a special prosecutor. My theory was that it was a conspiracy among the circles.
Hard as this may be for you to believe, as an engineering student I was required to take a fairly large number of humanities courses, I think about 10 in 4 years. Most were manditory, some were electives. I read a considerable amount of history and literature starting with the Greeks. I also took a course in psychology and economics (not a humanities elective.) It was a very fine school. Also once upon a time, the New York City school system was very much tougher and better. I read a lot of literature and history in high school as well. Fair amount of Shakespeare. And something I'm sure they don't teach in most European high schools in addition to European history...American history. Most Europeans know little or nothing about the United States. Surprisingly many reveal they know little about Europe too.
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294. At 00:54am on 27 Apr 2009, SamTyler1969 wrote:
"#292 If i may, I would add a working knowledge of psychology as well."
Is that really necessary? Can't you just SHOUT at people?
(Oops. He's back again, I'm off to hide in the kitchen.)
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To Britisish
The samovar is bubbling and the vodka is chilled.
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#298
No Marcus,
Those are supertsitions. Wrong again. How many times can you do that in a day?
Different modes of though may include inductive reasoning, concept attainment, creative thinking and judgement. I am not surprised that you don't recognize these.
GM should go bankrupt. Let me know what your equations think they should do.
Amused Sam
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Advice to aquarizonagal who would like to have Britishish over for dinner; don't bare your fangs until you're sure he's trapped firmly in the web. You don't want this one to get away.
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#297
Ish,
You can, but you typically end up alone living in a trailer somewhere. That said, you'd be amazed at how few people can read the emotions of an individual. Let alone a group dynamic.
Helpful Sam
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#300
Congratulations Marcus,
That was the most gutless and mean spirited post I've seen on the web.
Sleep well,
Disgusted Sam
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293. Guns; 295 Br-ish-ish
When you consider what the RAF did in one admittedly extraordinary adventure to open the front doors of a single building, the local Gestapo headquarters, in Amsterdam (or was it Copenhagen) by having a Mosquito fly 400 mph at telephone pole height up a street, and depositing a 1000 lb bomb on the front step, area bombing on coloured markers placed by the Pathfinders seems fairly imprecise.
At Dresden, the issue is whether there was any target of sufficient military importance to justify the deaths of 120,000+??? people in a sustained raid lasting several days. Awful things are done in wartime. Dresden was one of them.
I don't know whether it was a terror raid or a vengeance raid. Certainly at the time the allied propaganda machines had been running full out for six years villifying the Germans and stoking the fires of blind hatred - not perhaps a particularly difficult task given the actual deeds of the Nazis. That's what you do in war to get your population all fired up to fight. And when that is your mass mentality, not many are going to stop and ask whether retribution is proportional.
We do know that prior to VE-Day Eisenhower, for example, wanted to reduce Germany permanently to the status of a de-industrialised, agrarian vassal or buffer state (sort of how Publius is now describing Michigan, but I digress). There was not much sympathy for possible German suffering.
But after the fact, when tempers have cooled, when the fervor has died away, we look and see what we have done.
"God wept".
The nations that examine their own history, and confront the ugly bits of it, are the ones that learn. This is the story of Franco-German reconciliation. It is the painful, and incomplete, story of German-Polish reconciliation.
In a different context it is also the story of Watergate: looking into dark and shameful corners that we would rather not see.
Examining the origins of the second Iraq war may end up being quite painful, but it may also eventually be cathartic, and may make America a stronger country. The search for truth and accountability is important. What it should not be allowed to become is a partisan witch-hunt where people try to settle old scores. That isn't maturity, it isn't wisdom, and it doesn't lead to truth or reconciliation.
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300. staphylocooccus aureus.
"Advice to aquarizonagal who would like to have Britishish over for dinner; don't bare your fangs until you're sure he's trapped firmly in the web. You don't want this one to get away."
Hell hath no fury like a cad scorned. Get it through your head, staphy. She doesn't want you.
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304, postscript.
Actually, no one does.
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To MarcusaureliusII
Silly, sad and depressing comment. Do you have nothing else in your life? I have compassion for you. I hope you can find happiness and meaning somewhere before your bile destroys you.
Peace and loving kindness to you.
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294. Sam.
Yes, an understanding of psychology is important. It might be considered part of "wisdom".
296. MAII
Well, far be it from me to suggest that what goes on in the legislature is an example of legal reasoning. Without tempting fate excessively, I know a good number of lawyers, and I doubt if many of them would ascribe to our elected representatives much by way of any ability at legal reasoning. Quite the contrary. Lots of them feel that way about lawyers appointed to another branch of government, too. But since I am not keen on being struck by lightning, I'll just leave it at that.
If you want to find good legal reasoning, try looking in a well prepared brief submitted in a major commercial case before the USSC or the SCC. Or look at a contract for a major commercial undertaking prepared by a senior guy from a really competent commercial law firm.
Take a look at how they deal with issues of uncertainty, typically involving the possibility of unknown future events, and allocation of risk in complex commercial ventures between parties of roughly equal bargaining power. That is where you sometimes find brilliant legal reasoning.
297. Ish-ish:
NO, SHOUTING IS WHAT YOU DO, SLOWLY, BECAUSE EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT IS WHAT IT TAKES TO MAKE FOREIGNERS UNDERSTAND ENGLISH. WE COVERED THIS LAST WEEK.
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#306
Aqua,
Well, we can now add 'People with friends' to the list of folks Marcus bears a grudge against.
It'll be puppies next.
Observant Sam
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303, IF, I tend to lean in your direction, but from a military point of
view the railroad infrastructure was spread over a wide area and heavily
defended. By comparison, the raid on Gestapo headquarters was a pinprick.
So, it's hard for me to see how a small force of fighter bombers could
have interdicted the German troop movements. Nonetheless, the results
of the raid are incontrovertible: massive civilian casualties, similar
to the ones at Hamburg.
In warfare there is almost never such a thing as a good deed, only the
least evil necessary deed.
It is true that warfare is a horrible thing, and that there are really
no heroes, just survivors. If, by clever diplomacy, those in charge can
prevent another one in our time, they will have saved many souls.
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#307, IF, SHOUTING AT FOREIGNERS IS WHAT IT TAKES, ESPECIALLY WHEN ONE
HAPPENS TO BE IN THEIR COUNTRY.
And, Sam, you must be a good poker player. As for myself, I never gamble,
and only take calculated risks.
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306, aqua.
"Peace and loving kindness to you."
Doesn't "may you continue to have a miserable life" seem a more appropriate wish for staphylococcus aureus? Why turn the other cheek when you can give this hate-filled character a swift kick?
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To#311 Allymarbles
Because honey is as acid to such as him. Why argue with such profound sadness and disconnection with humanity?
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Aqua and Sam and all:
Sorry for bringing that (300) on. Was it something I said?
(I rang NHS Direct -- don't want to wake my GP at this time in the morning -- explained I appear to be suffering from aurelophobia. They said not to worry, it's perfectly normal. Everybody does.)
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To#313 Britishish
You do not need to be concerned. The person in question merely ran out of people to attack. The arguments were increasingly erratic and this person did what he does best.
Rest, have a cup of tea in the kitchen and do not distress yourself over nothing.
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309. Guns,
Which is why I consider the end of the cold war - 44 years of unblinking perseverance - to have been such a feat of brilliant generalship and diplomacy. The avoidance of yet another bloodbath on the north European plain was, and is, an achievement not to be sneezed at.
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#310
Guns, if only.
I don't gamble at all either, other than a supportive wager if a friend or colleague has a horse running somewhere. I get enough excitement in the week not to need that kind.
Sleep well all,
Sleepy Sam
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268. At 6:12pm on 26 Apr 2009, Interestedforeigner wrote:
"The other day he announced a rail road policy initiative that was exactly what is needed."
We are struggling fitfully here to rebuild passenger rail service between Houston, DFW, OKC, Wichita, Topeka, KC.
Our conspiracy theorists will have to explain why it was ever abandoned.
KScurmudgeon
in the middle of an all-night thunderstorm
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313. At 03:29am on 27 Apr 2009, british-ish wrote:
"(I rang NHS Direct -- don't want to wake my GP at this time in the morning -- explained I appear to be suffering from aurelophobia. They said not to worry, it's perfectly normal. Everybody does.)"
aureliophobia - a great, deep chuckle over that one.....
KScurmudgeon
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I can honestly say that the people here writing DO understand the "use of torture." Because, this blog site has become pure torture to read, every person being personally offended by "Marcus."
Why can't you just start ignoring him, if you disagree with him? (showing your good manners) And then get back on topic?
For instance, you could talk about the idea of a Truth Commission and the fact that President Obama has ruled out the idea of an investigation by Congress.
For instance, you COULD start referring to current news items/or events and discuss actual Physical Torturing and whether It is justified or not? I think "it is NOT" because think of the people you must *endure,* or *associate with* to get this job done.
People such as Dick Cheney would be Your Fellow Employees--EWWWWW.
But, then I rarely comment here, and AM named "stellarBeloved" (by the BBC, whom rejected KCDavid)
No Offence meant. Usually the comments here are so interesting and well written.
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#287. SamTyler1969:
#285. Marcus: Is that how you got to be a multi-millionaire....in Zimbabwe dollars?
"Actually yes. And US $, Euro's and British Pounds"
Modesty, Sam, modesty.
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319. Dear Lubomir:
Justin is away for the weekend, and we are all tired, and about to pack it in for the night.
There is a range of views here, most are against torture, some with visions of seeing old foes tried in court, others less vindictive, others concerned that it will merely lead to a morass of recrimination; still others feeling that no inquiry is necessary since no matter what the CIA or others did, we aren't as bad as the other guys.
We'll see what the news brings tomorrow.
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319. At 04:00am on 27 Apr 2009, stellarBeloved:
Well, actually, we've done that. It's just you have to scroll up a fair way to before that guy interrupted again. (It's nearly always around 100 when he sabotages it.)
We have tried ignoring him. Doesn't stop him. Believe me. Today's just been worse than usual, though.
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This says it all an extract from a review aricle about "How to Break a Terrorist: The US interrogators who used brains, not brutality, to take down the deadliest man in Iraq", by Matthew Alexander and John R Bruning (The Free Press)
@ http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/torture-it-probably-killed-more-americans-than-911-1674396.html
"The reason why foreign fighters joined al-Qa'ida in Iraq was overwhelmingly because of abuses at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib and not Islamic ideology," says Major Matthew Alexander, who personally conducted 300 interrogations of prisoners in Iraq. It was the team led by Major Alexander [a named assumed for security reasons] that obtained the information that led to the US military being able to locate Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the head of al-Qa'ida in Iraq. Zarqawi was then killed by bombs dropped by two US aircraft on the farm where he was hiding outside Baghdad on 7 June 2006. Major Alexander said that he learnt where Zarqawi was during a six-hour interrogation of a prisoner with whom he established relations of trust.
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312, aqua.
"Because honey is as acid to such as him. Why argue with such profound sadness and disconnection with humanity?"
My guess is that he is a loser with a lowly job. He talks as though he is on top of the heap. I can only guess what that heap is. People like that are envious of thos who have made it, so he responds with hatefulness.
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317. At 03:53am on 27 Apr 2009, KScurmudgeon wrote:
268. At 6:12pm on 26 Apr 2009, Interestedforeigner wrote:
"The other day he announced a rail road policy initiative that was exactly what is needed."
We are struggling fitfully here to rebuild passenger rail service between Houston, DFW, OKC, Wichita, Topeka, KC.
I looked that up, and discovered many passenger trains in the US apparently only average 40mph. The only form of public transport I've ever travelled on that's that slow is a London bus, and they've been known to do that, if pushed.
I have a strong suspicion it's going to cost you a lot more than the money allocated to it.
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317 KSC
Most probably it was abandoned because it was haemoraging red ink.
The financing of passenger services is highly contentious. America has the most successful and most profitable freight railroads on earth. Intercity passenger services lose money. Each "block" of track occupied by a money losing passenger train is one that could be filled with a profitable freight train. If passenger trains could be run profitably, the major railroads would jump at the chance - you have no idea how much railroad guys love trains, and the extent to which they are aware of the history of their industry.
The railroads take the view that highways and airlines are unfairly subsidized (undoubtedly true). Others point out that if the railroads want a comparable public subsidy then they should have to share their private property as public carriers. There is some truth in that, too, but perhaps not quite as much.
Whatever the case, it is unfair to expect the freight roads to bear the burden of passenger service. Passenger service has enough positive externalities that there is a public interest in fostering it, and it can bear a fair amount of public investment before anything even close to a level playing field is reached relative to the airlines. Or maybe the airlines should have to internalize all of their negative externalities. There's a thought. The economic viability of passenger service by rail would be transformed overnight.
The best approach is to working with the freight railroads incrementally to expand, and share, combined capacity. There are lots of potential win-win possibilities here. It also means having modest, achievable goals, rather than pie-in-the-sky dreams. The steps announced by the Obama administration so far do just this.
Large achievements are often made up of the slow and steady accumulation of small achievements. So far Obama is, so to speak, on the right track.
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322, ish-ish.
"We have tried ignoring him. Doesn't stop him. Believe me."
Actually it does. Also it infuriates him - a side benefit. But the trick is, not only not to respond directly, but not to acknowledge anyone who responded to him. In this last session I forgot my rule. What he hates more than anything is to be ignored.
He is back in Coventry as far as I am concerned.
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Have a good week EVERYONE (gosh, am I God, who do I think I am??)
Thanks for being such good writers and I love dissenting opinions, so Marcus doesnt bother me (as of yet) and he IS good at writing (I wish I were a good or great writer, so I could have some OTHER career)
Much good fun to everyone!
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326. At 04:58am on 27 Apr 2009, Interestedforeigner:
If you want true high-speed trains it's not going to be as easy as that. The Eurostar, which I use frequently, is a bit slow now (180mph) compared to the latest French and Spanish ones. It works, because it gets me from (London) house to (Briussels) house in 3 1/2 hours (including checking in 30 minutes before it leaves, the same amount of time it takes flying.
But: you need entirely new railway tracks. The distance between the two, for instance, has to be greater, because you are getting trains passing each other at a combined speed of anything up to 400 mph, and you can imagine the shockwave if they passed close together.
And on top of that, you need new signalling and control systems. (Until the high speed line was extended to run into London, the Eurostar did the last stretch at half-speed, because it used the same lines as the regular -- up to only a max of 125mph--services.) You can't mix the two if you are to offer an alternative to air travel. And the freight either goes on separate tracks, or overnight.
And, somewhere like the US, anything that goes slower than 180mph -- and it ought to be capable of 350mph (the current TGV record, though in service they only get up to about 220 at the moment) by the time it's all built -- isn't going to tempt passengers away from planes, I imagine.
It's cost the Europeans an absolute fortune, but it's worth it. I might be being unduly cynical, but I can't see the US Congress letting it happen when they realise what it's really going to cost to do it right. And it's only governments that can fund it, as we Brits learnt to our cost after Thatcher.
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interested
"Perspective comes from reading history and literature. A lot. "
That is what some historians and literary people would say.
Personally I think no subject is all that above the others. Except for blacksmithing that is.
I could spend a life time reading literary works and get no more enlightened than MATT rants, except they may be from a drunk Irishman instead of a drunk general.
Sorry spent too much time in oxford listening to literature students who quoted all day . the meanings behind the words lost in academic study .
Not a total philistine, but given the vast difference between your subject and truth I would give no more credence to scientific back ground that cannot even figure out that an extra O ring would have prevented the leak even if it were too cold. is not the fine mind of an analytical master in any field.
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329:
Oops. Forget all that. Should have looked at the 'strategic plan' first. I hadn't realised that what a 'high speed train' apparently means in US English is 150mph.
And I am sorry, but "intercity passenger rail services of more than 100 miles with as little as one to as many as 7–12 daily frequencies; may or may not have strong potential for future high-speed rail service. Top speeds of up to 79 mph to as high as 90" looks, well, is this really 2009?
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319,
you may have missed the other 2 posts on torture
I didn't though I did skip large sections. so much so that it was rather tedious.
Marcus will fill every damn post if no one interrupts him because he has a vast library of paste it notes to remind him of what he thinks.
.this subject has been flogged to death and turned into a race baiting bigot rant post long ago. at which point others decided enough was enough. and here you have it.
maybe.
"so Marcus doesnt bother me (as of yet)"
try hearing the same arguments and lies for the whole of last year, every weekend.most weekdays.
(though for a while his other half has been answering for him. and he is truly terrible)
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301 "group dynamic." you referring to MATT
Sam and others about MATT intelligence .
I would think no more need be said than look at his record.
so far unblemished success in getting it wrong.
beating even Gherkin to the top or bottom.
I think the subject of study is unimportant.
IF he was an engineer and IF any topic had much more relevance than an other we would have proof that "the sciences produce unsuitable thought patterns for any practical purpose ".
However I suspect that might be erroneous data that would be leading me to that conclusion.
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Torture is ordered, carried out, condoned and excused by moral cowards.
Which fits Cheney, to add to his physical cowardice as a younger man for the Vietnam War but a 5 time draft dodger.
It does not work, those who have successfully countered terrorism know this.
Including the French intel agencies who stopped a proto '9/11' in 1994, by having the skills to nurture and insert assets into the terror groups concerned.
The sort of thing that seems to have long eluded the CIA.
Torture was not used to prevent the insertion of spies and saboteurs into my country as it stood alone against a real threat top the life of the nation, against the Nazis in WW2.
In fact, none of these operations by Hitler's intel groups ever worked, rather those who were captured were often turned and used against their former bosses.
And no torture was used against them.
In 1947, a Japanese officer who had tortured Americans, was sentenced to 15 years hard labour by the US.
He had used what is now called 'waterboarding', such terms show another aspect of the previous administration, they were even too cowardly to call something what it is.
Those here is excuse such action reveal so much about themselves.
Paranoid, ignorant, frightened, immoral, weak, pathetic.
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#332...funny
#334...Yes
Must go to sleep.....
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#308 SamTyler1969,
It'll be puppies next.
I mentioned this to my two puppies, they prefer any comments about puppies be restricted to swimming, retrieving, and fishing. You can add belly rubs if you really want on their good side.
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I think that torture is never justified, no matter what the circumstances. How are we to know if what they say is the truth, or simply what we want to hear?
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#319 stellarBeloved,
I can honestly say that the people here writing DO understand the "use of torture." Because, this blog site has become pure torture to read, every person being personally offended by "Marcus."
I was thinking the same thing! The whole back and forth on the Waldorf=Astoria was particularly grueling, the equal sign has been in the logo for over a hundred years.
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#324 allmymarbles,
My guess is that he is a loser with a lowly job. He talks as though he is on top of the heap. I can only guess what that heap is. People like that are envious of thos who have made it, so he responds with hatefulness.
Some time back, he posted that he did not have an engineering license becuase he refused the liability for stamping construction documents. That should tell you all you need to know.
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Powerful whiff of hypocrisy in the air here. Richard_SM's contribution at nos. 237 and 238 is to mock MarcusAureliusII and accuse him of straying off the topic of torture while himself making no on-topic contribution whatsoever on this thread, not even to attempt a rebuttal of my no. 227.
Others have demonstrated their hypocrisy by pretending to be appalled by MarcusAureliusII's comment at no. 300 while they themselves dish him out similar insults on a regular basis. In fact, MarcusAureliusII has remained on a remarkably even keel here while sifting through much insulting rubbish in order to get to a debatable point.
That said, aquarizonagal was not an appropriate target for such an attack since she is not among the big offenders, her main fault being a tendency to put her nose in the air and regard people of a different political persuasion as beneath the notice of the cuddly chit-chat clique here.
Perhaps we should all make an extreme effort and get back to the topic of this thread. I say "we" since we are a community of sorts, sharing the same space and communicating after a fashion, as abhorrent as that idea might be to many here.
I'll kick it off by asking whether there is anyone here who is interested in drawing a comparison between the Americans and the Iranians regarding torture.
Don't all rush to answer at once.
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#334 SONICBOOMER,
Read up on the London Cage.
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#340
Im against both American AND Iranian Torturer(ing)/(s)
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342. stellarBeloved,
But do you not see a difference between the two in terms of the degree of torture and the attitude of the authorities toward torture?
Are waterboarding and raping and torturing a female suspect to death comparable in your view?
And do the two governments have the same openness in confronting the issue?
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#343
But all torture is wrong. Especially with America being very Holier-than-thou for a long time.
I'm not saying any torture by the Iranians is "better", but as the leading world power America has a responsibility to maintain human rights and the moral highground.
Regardless, you can't justify something by saying that someone else does it worse. It's like a thief getting away with stealing a car because he/she isn't Madoff. Ones crime is ones own and shouldn't be compared to anothers.
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#320
David,
I merely respond in the interests of full disclosure.
Honest Sam
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#340
True,
Easy. Torture is immoral, cowardly and evil regardless of the technique used. Worse, it is ineffective. Which makes it stupid as well as a mortal sin likely to result in eternal damnation.
In both countries there are folks who think it is OK. In America these people lack the guts to say what they do and why, they hide behind tortuous words like 'enhanced techniques'. The Iranians also don;t have to watch a big fat sweaty former VP on their Sunday morning TV telling them what a great idea it is.
The Iranians also don't have apologists trying to justify the practice by saying 'Oh but those guys torture worse than us, so we are OK'. Which is like Charles Manson saying 'I'm not as bad as Ted Bundy'.
Ethicist Sam
P.S. check the posts and you'll find I do not call Marcus names, merely point out when he is being illogical, ignorant or immoral. Those are behaviors, not the person. Jack may have called him a name once or twice but he's like that and treats everyone the same.
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You know what one big problem with you lefties is? You have no sense of humor. Apologists for the Brits say that their sense of humor is very dry, whatever that means. I say it is so dry it shriveled up and died away decades ago. Aquarizonagal, did you get British-sh to take the bait? If he doesn't, I'll bet you could lure 68 1/2 by holding out the promise of a magnum of 90 Dom Perignon. Even if he's not the multi-nillionaire he claims to be, he has aspirations. You could become the woman behind the man. As they say, behind every successful man there is a woman with a whip driving him to run faster. Now as for the French, their god of funny is Jerry Lewis. That's because they never heard of the Three Stooges. I was reminded of that when Merckel, Sarkozy, and Brown each visited President Bush in the White House shortly after they became heads of state. Personally I think Moe, Larry, and Curly were a smarter trio. Even though it was late in Bush's second term and he was already the lamest of ducks (and the lamest of excuses for a president until his successor came along...and you thought Clinton was weak), they had to pay the obligatory homage visit and genuflect before the great man. Were I him, I'd have worn a big ring and held out my hand for each of them to kiss it. Wearing a crown would have been rubbing it in and going just a little too far.
Europe's war against America is not going very well for them at all. Its architects, Schroeder and Chirac are out of the picture and no one seems to hold them accountable for the consequences of their stupidity. But then they only reflected the betrayal most of Europe wanted anyway. (I think it's endemic in their cultures.) How grateful we Americans should be for the trade war among other things. By falsely claiming American meat was dangerously tainted with hormones and anti-biotics, we were spared being exposed to Europe's really dangerous meat products contaminated with mad cow disease producing prions and foot and mouth disease bacteria. It seems to me some of the European posters are starting to show the early signs of mad cow disease already as evidenced in their postings. I never would have figured on the CDSs and CMOs though. Of all the secret weapons the US could have developed, none could have been more stealthy or potently explosive than those were. The World War Five doomsday weapon detonated without firing a single shot, how "absolutely brilliant" as the Brits would say. A virus that infected the entire world's financial system, far worse than any cyber virus could possibly be, there seems no real way to undo the damage except to rebuild from scratch. Too bad nobody knows how. We are relying on the same people who were the architects of this catastrophe to fix it. How sweetly they whistle past the graveyard. You have to wonder if they ever reflect on the possiblity that they don't know what the hell they are doing. BTW, I think it is becoming inescapably obvious....global warmig is long past the so called tipping point. It's been in the high 90s (35+ in C degrees) in the NE US for the last two days and we have another day or two of it ahead of us. I've never seen anything like it. It must be a record breaker for April. What will July and August be like? Watch those ice shelves in Antarctica and Greenland London, Holland. Be prepared for a fast escape if sea levels start rising fast. I wouldn't be thinking about investing in real estate in Manahattan or South Florida either. Arizona might start to look better and better 68 1/2. Especially if she has a cellar stocked with the best vintages of Dom Perignon. No matter how bad it could be, that should take the edge off...until it runs out anyway.
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...erm...
how did this thread turn from a reasoned debate on the meaning of torture and whether legal proceedings should be commenced to an attempt to reason someone out of their delusions and paranoia?
Oh I see - Marcus is here.
Well I think you are all making a mistake. There is no point in using logic or reason with Mr II - we are well passed the stage where we ought to be considering medication - although I do commend the voluntary pychiatric work you are all attempting.
Incidentally, if no one has pointed this out before, it wasn't Bart Simpson who first called the French "Cheese eating surrender-monkeys". It was Grounds Keeper Willie.
And now, feeling I have made an important contribution to the debate, I will treat myself to a Cornish Pasty for luncheon (and maybe some pickled onions!)
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So to the question whether or not to prosecute, apart from the political repercussions, it seems there is also debate as to whether reliance on the AG and Bybee opinions may have created immunity from criminal prosecution and tort claims (no "intent" to do wrong since there was an AG opinion authorizing it). For laws broken theres a 1945 Convention Against Torture treaty adopted by the US, and a US criminal law for 'Torture: Offense. Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both...'
So the debate is that the prosecution of gov't employees who relied on AG memos that said what they did legally was not torture makes it difficult to prosecute them on 'torture' crimes...must be why they wrote the memos....to protect themselves from prosecution.
Reminds me of Moslems who obtain a complicated set of contracts under Sharia law, when they are getting a loan where interest is charged, so that they don't actually 'touch' the interest. I can see these long lines of people standing at the pearly gates waiving their memos ...... 'but my lawyer wrote me a note saying it was OK...."
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ref #346
No Sam we just don't accept the standards set by the ACLU and other America hating groups on whats constitutes torture.
Many people in the U.S do not regard the actions by the CIA as torture.
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#348
I think it's best just to ignore him.
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Ref 349, Frayed
Prosecuting those responsible for torturing terrorist suspects in Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, and other prisons is pointless. They were following orders and thought their actions were consistent with US laws, not to mention the need to keep the homeland safe. Prosecuting the lawyers who provided opinions on this subject will lead nowhere since their involvement is limited to just that, providing opinions in response to requests from the Excutive Branch of our government. The only ones that could be prosecuted for crimes against humanity are George W. Bush and Richard Cheney whose insistence on using torture led to the implementation of policy and a cowardly miscarriage of justice.
While I believe it is important to recognize and admit that national and international laws were violated, and that steps are being put in place to preclude recurrences, I think it will be a mistake to prosecute our former President and VP. The impact of such trial and the revelations that are likely to emerge (which may include more than torture), will cause irreparable damage to our country's credibility and moral standing in the world, would destroy what little confidence we still have in our government and system of justice, and will divide our society even further than it already is. It is also worth considering that the most likely outcome, in the event of a guilty verdict, is a presidential pardon. The idea of a former president and VP serving time in jail is not something most Americans will accept, regardless of circumstances and particularly when they use patriotism and the need to keep our country safe as an excuse for their cowardly crimes.
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#350
Just because the ACLU said/are doing something that criticises America doesn't make it an American hating group. Just because you don't want to hear it doesn't mean it's not true.
And I'm sure many people don't regard waterboarding as torture. I bet many people think it is. But I think given past history on what happened to Japanese soldiers that used waterboarding on Americans gives an indication that it is not a pleasant "interrogation" technique.
I also think that if John McCain describes it as torture, given that he is in a high position in the republican party AND has experienced torture first hand, then perhaps people are being a bit naive if they would like to think otherwise.
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ref #350
...puts down half eaten pasty...
Which I guess is the heart of this debate. I (and I dare say many others) cannot understand how anyone could not call waterboarding torture.
> Is it something I'd find acceptable if someone did it to me? No
> Is it something I'd find acceptable if someone did it to any of my friends or relations? No
> Is it something I'd find acceptable if someone did it to one of my fellow countrymen? No
Then why is is acceptable for my countrymen to do it to someone els?
Maybe I could try these arguments:
> These are exceptional circumstances! Well hang on a minute. Do we live by the rule of law or don't we? Once we open up this loophole, who know what it can be used for in the future and who gets to decide what an exceptional circumstance is or isn't.
> The other side do much worse! Well yes, I'm sure they do - but isn't that why were opposed to them?
> It's effective! Best we can say is the jury is still out on that one. I for one would place a high degree of sceptisism against any information obtained under 'duress' (read: 'torture').
In the long run, however, torturing 'detainees' is bound to be self-defeating - but I think this runs into a long-standing blind-spot of US foreign policy. There seems to be an institutional block on recognising that, whilst the activities of extremist are vile, they are, in part, derived as a response to US actions. By, legitimising torture of it's enemies (and in this respect, it doesn't matter if you personally think it is torture or not - it only matter how it is perceived throughout the rest of the world) the US has gifted it's opponents a tremendous propaganda coup.
And it's no use blaming the Obama administration for not letting sleeping dogs lie - this story had flown the coup months ago. The only possible way to recover this damage is for the US Government to be seen to be acknowledging it's mistake and take steps to ensure that it never happens again. The only way this can be effectively demonstrated is to prosecute those responsible for allowing "American Torturers" to become a headline in many parts of the world.
If you don't prosecure, you ain't serious about it.
You know, I don't fancy the rest of the Pasty - it's got diced carrot in it! Now that's a real crime.
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#354
Some very good points. It all makes sense - although I suspect that is why a lot of people will disagree with you :p
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You know, we never did get to the bottom of Dick Cheney's involvement in the Valerie Plame business, at the time he hid behind 'executive prirvilege', something he now no longer has.
If torture produces results, then I wonder what Cheney's answer would be to this little conundrum, how do we get Cheney to tell us what he knows about this very serious criminal matter?
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350. At 1:31pm on 27 Apr 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #346
No Sam we just don't accept the standards set by the ACLU and other America hating groups on whats constitutes torture.
Many people in the U.S do not regard the actions by the CIA as torture."
Many people in the US approve of child pornography.
However the bulk of the population do not.
And as for America hating - when wre you elected president?
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352. At 1:49pm on 27 Apr 2009, saintDominick:
Won't do. The 'Nuremberg Defence' ("I was only obeying orders") won't work. It has been clearly established in international law that an illegal order has no force.
And the notorious 'torture memo' is not merely an 'opinion': it defines the construction of "cruel and unusual punishment" to mean only "only maltreatment that results in death". That is an interpretation that can only be tested in the Supreme Court, surely?
And other leaders and government members in other countries have been tried and imprisoned. Even executed. If it is a national embarrassment, well, tough.
The danger is, if nothing is done, next time, worse things will be, but more secretively.
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347. At 12:27pm on 27 Apr 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
You know what one big problem with you lefties is? You have no sense of humor.2
Your problem Marcus is you have a deep racial hatred of others.
Europe's war against America is not going very well for them at all.
No one is interested in your half educated rants about Europe Marcus. Least of A all Chirac and ASchroader.
Despite your hysterics Eu7rope is still here - black Europeans too.
Sorry
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354. At 2:03pm on 27 Apr 2009, Feohme wrote:
ref #350"
There are other reasons for prosecution.
For 1 thing we need to know who came up with these techniques, how were they decded, was a range of options suggested?
And who did the tortuing and how were they incentivised?
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348. At 12:53pm on 27 Apr 2009, Feohme wrote:
"There is no point in using logic or reason with Mr II - we are well passed the stage where we ought to be considering medication"
Oh. Do you think so? That's disappointing. I was hoping paracetamol would fix it . . .oh, you mean for him, not us?
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re: #361
"a little from column A, and a little from column B"
Grandpa Simpson
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Foreigner (303) Namaste,
- "The nations that examine their own history, and confront the ugly bits of it, are the ones that learn. This is the story of Franco-German reconciliation. It is the painful, and incomplete, story of German-Polish reconciliation.
So true, so true. You have been on terrific form just recently. Thanks, and thanks again.In a different context it is also the story of Watergate: looking into dark and shameful corners that we would rather not see.
Examining the origins of the second Iraq war may end up being quite painful, but it may also eventually be cathartic, and may make America a stronger country. The search for truth and accountability is important. What it should not be allowed to become is a partisan witch-hunt where people try to settle old scores. That isn't maturity, it isn't wisdom, and it doesn't lead to truth or reconciliation."
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
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Ref 358, British
I accept the logic of your argument, and I don't mind admitting that I would not mind seeing Messrs. Bush and Cheney in prison, but my top priority is my country, our society, and the Office of the Presidency. With that in mind, I have to reluctantly admit that the least damaging approaching to us is a congressional investigation, not a trial.
Let the thugs live with their conscience...if they have one.
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#28, et. al.
During the Japanese war crimes trials in 1947, the US specifically defined waterboarding as torture. Japanese officers and soldiers who participated in waterboarding Allied prisoners were charged with torture for using it, tried and convicted...and executed.
It is apparently torture when used against our soldiers, but not when we use it against others.
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IF (326),
- "Passenger service has enough positive externalities that there is a public interest in fostering it, and it can bear a fair amount of public investment before anything even close to a level playing field is reached relative to the airlines. Or maybe the airlines should have to internalize all of their negative externalities. There's a thought. The economic viability of passenger service by rail would be transformed overnight."
Spot on again!Ivan Illich on hypermobility
- "Past a certain threshold of energy consumption, the transportation industry dictates the configuration of social space. Motorways expand, driving wedges between neighbors and removing fields beyond the distance a farmer can walk. Ambulances take clinics beyond the few miles a sick child can be carried. The doctor will no longer come to the house, because vehicles have made the hospital into the right place to be sick. Once heavy trucks reach a village high in the Andes, part of the local market disappears. Later, when the high school arrives at the plaza along with the paved highway, more and more of the young people move to the city, until not one family is left which does not long for a reunion with someone hundreds of miles away, down on the coast."
And Thoreau:- "Such is the universal law, which no man can ever outwit, and with regard to the railroad even we may say it is as broad as it is long. To make a railroad round the world available to all mankind is equivalent to grading the whole surface of the planet. Men have an indistinct notion that if they keep up this activity of joint stocks and spades long enough all will at length ride somewhere, in next to no time, and for nothing; but though a crowd rushes to the depot, and the conductor shouts "All aboard!" when the smoke is blown away and the vapor condensed, it will be perceived that a few are riding, but the rest are run over- and it will be called, and will be, "A melancholy accident.""
And Ed Abbey:Sloooooowwwww down
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Mostly just wrong too
I did notice what looks like a mild form of what legally could be considered sexual harassment in your posts.
You should be careful. If a mod actually read your posts before posting they might have noticed.
Or can I suggest that you are renting in a cottage in Kingscross.
You seem to think that sort of talk appropriate.
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St Dom (352),
- "The only ones that could be prosecuted for crimes against humanity are George W. Bush and Richard Cheney whose insistence on using torture led to the implementation of policy and a cowardly miscarriage of justice."
At least start at the top and work down, as opposed to the usual way....Complain about this comment
338 waldorf.
try asking him how it is he thinks the big airbus is a waste and how they could have used a c5 military transport instead.
all a red hearing from the fact that he has such absurdly bias views on any topic.
The guy will go for about1000 posts to prove he knows nothing when we already know that.
Not that he believes himself.
as his alter ego Truly too bad keeps pointing out.
It is a relief that he has let Truly scumtious do his talking on the subject of dread.
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#347
Hark,
Does anyone hear the call of the North Jersey Lesser Spotted Maroon Electritit? It's a strange, solitary bird driven to live in small cramped quarters by it's inexplicable habit of ineffectively attacking all other wildlife in its vicinity, no matter how much more intelligent or stronger they are. Prone to hallucination, when it sees its reflection it perceives a 3 foot tall noble eagle where others see a 2 inch finch with shabby plumage and a poorly kept nest. Eventually, even its young turn on it.
It is a rare, endangered species these days, due to its inability to maintain a relationship long enough to mate.
Ornithologist Sam
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368 Hesiodos
a soldier is only as good as the officer that leads them.
Commander in Chief .
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364. At 3:02pm on 27 Apr 2009, saintDominick wrote:
Ref 358, British "Let the thugs live with their conscience...if they have one."
I don't think that's an option. If any of those involved had a fully functioning one, this would not have happened in the first place.
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366 Hesiodos
another nice post.
I'm with you and them.
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You never know what will be found when they start turning over rocks in Washington. The hard part will be deciding what will be the limits of any investigation. These things tend to take on a life of their own and the media is always trying to set the agenda. Lots of sensationalism, careers will be destroyed, the powerful will be protected and truth will never surface. Makes good TV. All the makings of a distration away from what is important, like investigating why the financial industry collapsed and who are responsible? Congress likes on camera time, especially when they can potificate on things while the important matters go unattended.
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348 lol
look at 340 Marcus's valiant defender, his other half (literally).
354 SPOT ON.
I hate carrots in by pasties as well. WHY?
Take a good thing and ruin it.
To all who say Iran tortures. AGAIN . Why do we only accept the worst of our enemies ways.
and , If they didn't torture you would have nothing to make america look good. well if america didn't torture that is.
Lol Sam I do call him names. but not all people.
I do generally reserve it for serious disagreements.
I just happen to vehmanently disagree with all the versions of blaggerblogger 3.0
312 Aqua . if MATT had tried acid we would be all right.
Shame he didn't.
304 marbles.Sam,ed
remember back when when he said he just got ripped by a woman who had left him. how women take ?
Why that seems like a year ago now.
--------------
Interested and GnR
though the "fall" of communism was by and large peaceful. the results have not been.
Chechyneya for example.
It would seem to me that the world was held behind a wall or dam for years and now that has burst there has been a flood of pent up aggression world wide.
deservedly so in many cases.
-----------------------
And screw him I'm not giving him my medicine..... OK I will.
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372 well said. and if we let all criminals go to feel their own wrath we would be in deep troo.
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jcjnyc (#365) "Japanese officers and soldiers who participated in waterboarding Allied prisoners were charged with torture for using it, tried and convicted...and executed."
I have been unable to verify this assertion. Certainly some Japanese soldiers were imprisoned for waterboarding, and others were put to death for war crimes, but I am not convinced that anyone whose worst crime was waterboarding was put to death for it. Can you provide a link to a reputable source for this claim?
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http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2007/dec/18/john-mccain/history-supports-mccains-stance-on-waterboarding/
http://www.progresspolitics.com/2009/04/22/a-victims-discription-of-waterboarding-us-convicted-japanese-soldiers-in-wwii-for-waterboarding/
Gary this Might lead you in the right direction
It would seem that it may take you some time to try to figure out if they were executed Expressly for their water-boarding.
most of those who received the death penalty did torture or mistreat prisoners.but they also killed many people and other crimes.
So to say they were killed for waterboarding is not the full story. But if you try a guy for rape and murder can you let them off the using a weapon bit.
It was Part of the charge that added up to death.
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#345.SamTyler1969: "David, I merely respond in the interests of full disclosure."
I think there are some things which should not be disclosed - "old money" doesn't shout it from the roof tops and in Britain at least, you might not distinguish the Duke of Westminster from a dustman. Besides, not everyone believes what is written here - MAII says he is of some importance in his field, yet many (most?) do not believe him, so why should they believe you? With regard to finances and position in society, the least said the better. An old-fashioned view perhaps, but then I'm an old-fashioned person!
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361, ish-ish.
There has to be something seriusly wrong with a person whose favorite comics are Jerry Lewis and the three stooges.
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lol apparently we need to bleach the blog.
"Children with bad eczema suffer from chronic skin infections, most commonly caused by Staphylococcus aureus,"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8015995.stm
379 DC
I do know what you mean but lets face it Sam has made sense and I personally have reason to think he is telling us the truth.
just things I have heard.
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happy (#378), your first link has to do with the Tokyo Trials, and it supports my point. The few people who were sentenced to death at the Tokyo Trials were convicted of responsibility for atrocities on a mass scale, not merely waterboarding.
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#379
Hi David,
I'm American. We like money. The easiest conversation to start with my peers is 'Hi, what did you make last year?'. I make sure my staff know exactly what the executive team makes, it's a motivator. Besides which it was the rather obvious response to the snarky comment.
So David, what did you make last year?
=)
Capitalist Sam
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Happy's second link is just a blog with a point of view, much like this one, with references to articles such as his first link. That's not an authoritative source. Making an assertion on a blog does not establish a fact. I want to see a document like the one I linked for the Tokyo Trials, which specifies who was convicted, for what, and with what consequence.
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GARY I too read the link you provided. to quote you and the point of my post was
" not merely waterboarding."
Merely.
as you put it.
Does not prove that it was not part of the charge.
it does not provide information as to if there were people that had only committed Waterboarding but no other crime.
A rather hard person to find I expect.
That is why your dismissal is not to be taken as proof that they were NOT executed for the waterboarding part.
Full transcript not being there I did not bother But gave you the information that was relevant.
Glad you could use it.
Political fact check is pretty good often. here they were defending the republican cantidate. I though those who like them would appreciate that their man was not a liar about this. as it seems.
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383 6000 lol hitting the big time. Want to buy a turtle?
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348. FOEHME
Cheeze eating surrender monkeys - see post 245.
Honorable mention to President Bartlett and "ponsy hairdressers" and baguettes noted on previous thread.
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Gentlemen
Money is only useful for the amount of goods and services a person needs or wants. One either has money for these purposes or one does not.
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347.
"Apologists for the Brits say that their sense of humor is very dry, whatever that means. I say it is so dry it shriveled up"
I think the word is 'desiccated'. Like coconut? However, as always, I defer to the master-debater and hope he recovers his insight eventually.
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389
lol
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All: I am not sure that the release of these memos was given thorough consideration. It doesn't matter, though...they are out there now. Now that they are, folks now need to consider the next steps. I'd suggest three possible things to consider in that debate: (a) The future of the country, (b) the future of our relations with other countries, and (c) the future of our intel service.
With regard to the future of the United States, I think it's fair to say that any selective release of information will be viewed by very many as a partisan witchhunt rather than an honest search for the truth. If such a belief takes root in or is shared by any portion of the electorate, it will jeopardize the country's ability to face its future, because doing so is going to require the energy and commitment of ALL of our citizens. Those who tend to gloss over our divisions, or the seriousness of such an issue, would be well advised to look much more closely and deeply at what is done and said here, and not to dismiss it as "just politics" or "just those xxx raving again". I cannot think of a better way to touch off a series of partisan attacks that will destroy the United States than to be in any way selective about any of this. All persons on all sides of the partisan divide should not under-estimate the level of distrust, hatred, and willingness to return blow for blow circulating through the American public today. We really ARE that divided.
As far as our relations with other nations are concerned, some folks will focus on what they see as our moral failure. I don't disagree with this, but I also point out that if we are going to be non-selective about release of information we are going to inevitably expose secrets that will get the leadership of other nations in trouble as well. While in an ideal world that wouldn't be a problem, this is the real world, and the lesson those other nations are going to learn is that we cannot be trusted with secrets. The cost of that has to be sifted as well, and that cost is both real and non-trivial.
Finally, regardless of who offers what assurances, the absolute lesson our intel folks are going to learn (once again) is that they cannot depend on the national leadership to be consistent with regard to their treatment of intel information, and the people who gather it. Non-selective release of information is going to inevitably compromise some sources, who will have to either be bailed out of their respective countries, or be left to be slaughtered by their countrymen. That's the nature of HUMINT. That is one of the costs to be weighed. Another will be the ability to rebuild or attract new sources (that should be REALLY entertaining). Finally, I suspect that the "old hands" in intel will advise anyone looking for work to look elsewhere (assuming those looking for work can't figure it out themselves). All this is going to compromise our intel service (again), with results that may or may not be acceptable in the future.
With those ideas as background, I am forced to conclude that since the memos are out there, our only choice is to blow it wide open--every memo, every meeting, every e-mail, every briefing to Congress, every attendance list, every everything needs to be pulled up and published, so that America can clearly see how all of its political leadership on both sides of the aisle behaved, and can be reassured that political points are not being scored. We'll have to accept the shattered relations with other countries, and with their intel services, and the need to rebuild our own; I suspect it will take us at least 10-15 years to do all that. However, if we try to salvage those things by being selective about what we release, I believe we will wind up shattering the country at precisely the time we need everyone's best efforts in order to move forward. It will really degenerate into two camps who honestly believe they can do better without the other (which is complete stupidity), and who are committed to that goal (which is worse stupidity).
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389
Batcow.
good question.
chances are , never. america is too... proud to look at itself.
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#388
Aqua,
I disagree. Once one has what they need then there is a moral obligation to use it for good works.
Philanthropist Sam
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Marcus I've been sent over to ask if you can let Truely a pile of rubbish out of your box for a while. then we can all debate your other favourite subject for a while.
This persona is getting a little tired it seems.
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"NOT"
to put humour to the level of MATT
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arclightt (#391), " ... destroy the United States ... "
That's a bit over-the-top, isn't it?
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This might work. If israel is truly a democratic beacon with no discrimination against israeli arabs, how may of the settlements built in the west bank and east jerusalem are for israeli arab use?
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Sam that guy didn't recognise an = sign or ignored it. (sorry didn't follow to closely on that line).
I doubt he made much of a mathematician .
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well said aqua
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To #393 Samtyler1969
Of course, that goes without saying or at least I thought so.
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Sean's Pa (397),
- ""We are against this project, which is harming the hopes for peace," Ms Ofran said in remarks to AFP news agency."
Which is one of the intended results. Israel has no interest at all in peace.Complain about this comment
lol sean you are wicked;)
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Sam, DC, others, don't listen to Sam about money. He's a New Yorker.
On the East Coast, when people want to find out about a person,
this is what they ask:
Philadelphia, Baltimore: "What does he(she) do?" (for a living)
Washington: "Who does he know?"
Boston: "What is his family?"
New York: "How much money is he worth?"
Now, I know that this somewhat crass, nouveau riche New York crowd is
somewhat offensive to many folks, but in a sense, Sam is right (in his
own distorted way.)
America is about building things, including business empires, and those
things cannot be built without a lot of money.
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393, Sam.
"I disagree. Once one has what they need then there is a moral obligation to use it for good works."
For "good works" substitute "family, friends, and the unfortunate that you know personally." At least then you know where your money is going - and ALLl of it. Organzatins use a great hunk of their donations for the fund raiser, fund raising, overhead, staff and, very often, perks. It is not uncommon for only a small percentage to be applied to its purported purpose. Having once worked for one of these organizations, I quit in disgust.
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Here's a link to a discussion of convictions of Japanese soldiers for waterboarding. This is only a post on a forum, but the poster gives a citation to the document from which he quotes (but without a link), so it could be checked.
These persons were not sentenced to death.
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#383. SamTyler1969: "Hi David . . . So David, what did you make last year?
As a lady never reveals her age, a gentleman never talks about his money.
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Gary I went to the link and followed on to the drop by drop pdf inside.
there 40 odd pages but in the beginning the writer (who frankly I will take as better educated on this than us) says they did execute some. but that they committed other crimes.
But it does seem that it was a factor according to the writer.
PDF so no link go read. keep busy.
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RE: posters that post often on the same subject
This could be due to many reasons:
Genuine enthusiasm about the subject.
Special knowledge.
Very intelligent.
Love having a conversation with a wide range of interested people on topical subjects.
An interest in arriving at the core of an issue.
A flawed, psychologically damaged personality.
Representing and publicising a particular interest group.
An unhealthy interest in death/destruction/conflict for example.
Why would someone want to induce anger and hatred, exaggerate differences, demonize whole countries, produce copious amounts of unfounded speculation and emphasize the importance of the military all the time etc?
Maybe another explanation is to encourage and justify continued and increased budgets, on arms and weapons for example (Obviously this is idle speculation and I have nothing backing this theory)
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341, yes aware of the London Cage, just after WW2, we can reference too goings on in Kenya in the 1950's as well.
But, my point was, that some excuse the trashing of American values as needed since the nation is under some huge threat to it's existence.
However, when the UK was under a very real threat in 1940, torture was not used to blunt subversion attempts.
The threat posed by terrorists is and was puny by comparison, the integrity of the US and it's institutions not being under such threat.
They do not have fleets of military aircraft, naval vessels, intercontinental missiles.
I have never understood this huge bigging up of a bunch of Islamist misfits.
The reason there has been no follow up attack since, is most likely due to