Dissenting voices on torture covered up?
This is big news, I think. Basically, a Bush administration official is claiming that there was a cover-up of attempted opposition to the legal advice.
This is the money quote:
"At the time, in 2005, I circulated an opposing view of the legal reasoning. My bureaucratic position, as counselor to the secretary of state, didn't entitle me to offer a legal opinion. But I felt obliged to put an alternative view in front of my colleagues at other agencies, warning them that other lawyers (and judges) might find the OLC views unsustainable. My colleagues were entitled to ignore my views. They did more than that: The White House attempted to collect and destroy all copies of my memo. I expect that one or two are still at least in the State Department's archives."
As for your comments on my last post, I am fascinated by the idea that watching Fox is torture (as gunsandreligion has suggested). That Sean Hannity fellow is actually rather amusing - did I detect a faint wiff of effort to out-Limbaugh the master in order to take on the mantle of leader of the right?
Anyway, in his interview with Dick Cheney last night, he certainly had the ex-VP held in a few positions which may or may not have been legal in some states. But they were more intimate than stressful I felt...
Livinginlalaland hits it on the head for me: waterboarding is always wrong except when it might not be.
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I still think it's about the law. If Americans want the CIA to use torture then fine, let's have a bill introduced in the House to that effect. After that, there's nothing more to say. Either it passes and gets signed or it doesn't. Either way, everybody has to abide by the law.
It's not like we don't suspend our laws in special circumstances. We suspend the interpretation of homicide as murder from in combat (and well we should). We can do the same for torture.
The fact it that that will never pass. Indeed, it will never get to the floor of the House. And why is that? Americans don't want it.
No one should take my word for it. BBC, commission a poll. Let's find out how many Americans would favor a bill providing for the suspension of the laws against torture during times of war (for the Executive branch of the government).
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It is big news in a sense. However, since we knew Bush and company were unwilling to listen to dissenting views on Iraq (There was ample evidence prior to the war that Iraq had no WMD and no ties to Al-Quaida), this should come as no surprise.
I personally oppose torture. It's worth noting that this nation was founded on opposition to arbitrary imprisonment, opposition to cruel and unusual punishment, and the presumption the a person is innocent until proven guilty- all of which torture denies.
I'm curious as to if the BBC will cover the scandal which involves the NSA, Congresswoman Jane Harman, AIPAC and Alberto Gonzales. (It's more of three-four scandals in one...)
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Torture is use a tool of revenge. It never was a tool of information gathering as bribing works better.
So some people just loe to torture to try to gather information as they want to feel they are doing something.
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This is all starting to sound like an episode of 24,
starring Kiefer Sutherland. I suggest that we all obtain popcorn
in time for the season premier, on Fox, of course.
I wonder how the all of the lawyering will figure into the new
scripts - perhaps someone prosecuting Jack Bauer will inadvertently
discover that a close relative of his can only be saved if Jack
is left unhindered to pursue a morally ambiguous course of action?
None of this changes my view, however, that it is far better to
intercept enemy communications while they are unaware of our capabilities
than to compromise our public image in the Muslim world.
And, if you Brits were wondering how you would deal with such
a mortal threat, you need look no farther than Operation Double Cross,
whereby your MI5 rounded up Nazi agents as they were paradropped
into the UK, and pointed guns at their heads to send back misinformation.
This was done by the simple expedient of threatening them with summary
execution, a remedy legal under the Geneva Convention.
You got lucky by intercepting the first one, and persuading him of
the desirability of cooperation. From then on, subsequent agents
were intercepted because the Germans sent the time and location of
their drops (and submarine drop-offs) to the agents already in place.
Now, I know that many of you are dead-set against capital punishment,
but the fact that your government was willing to use it in wartime
against spies is one of the major reason why Britain held out,
why the Allies were able to mount a successful cross-channel invasion,
and why more British lives weren't lost due to V-1 and V-2 attacks.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
To#4 Gunsandreligion
What about the movie, "Conspiracy Theory?"
Could we also have wine and chocolate along with the popcorn?
It does seem as though the rats or could it be cockroaches are now pouring out of the woodwork. Where oh where have they been until now? Why did this person not go public ala "deep throat?" Why wait until now?
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Available Means, an eerily pertinent radio drama from the marvellous BBC Radio4, was broadcast Tuesday Afternoon.
Listen to it here
Peace in all tongues
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The fact that the Bush Administration silenced or distorted voices of dissent regarding torture and the Iraq war should not surprise anyone. A government that imprisons SUSPECTS indefinitely without evidence of wrongdoing, that tortures people to extract confessions that with the exception of providing political capital are likely to be meaningless, and that orders wiretapping to monitor the telephone conversations and e-mails of American citizens is no different from the tyrannical governments we condemned not so long ago.
Sadly the paranoidal fear of being attacked persuades the weak to allow the erosion of civil liberties, violations of national and international laws, and the demise of our ideals to achieve a false sense of security.
Those that believe torture and the totalitarian policies embraced by the Bush Administration kept us safe for seven years should ask themselves why did the Bush Administration ignore the warnings and memos about an imminent Al Qaeda attack against the USA before 9/11. Admittedly, the warnings and memos lacked specificity and a successful attack would have probably happened anyway, but I am definitely not very impressed with the indifference that contributed to that horrible event.
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1, AndyPost.
"I still think it's about the law. If Americans want the CIA to use torture then fine, let's have a bill introduced in the House to that effect. After that, there's nothing more to say. Either it passes and gets signed or it doesn't. Either way, everybody has to abide by the law."
We don't need another law. There are rules in place that we subscribe to - the Geneva Convention. Don't burden us with more committees and more laws. Congress wastes enough of our money as it is.
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waterboarding is always wrong except when it might not be.
Justin, is this a distinction with a difference? If it's proved that waterboarding led to preventing attacks on USA, should the Bush administration be congratulated in it's use of enhanced interrogation techniques?
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Justin,
Another clear indication of the BBC's right wing border line fascist bias. The fact that you could even consider this answer as reasonable puts you out there with the fascist junta's of yesteryear (I avoid the Nazi card as it is an admission of defeat).
A stressful interrogation is only useful if it provides timely, actionable information. The ticking bomb scenario. The Army Field manual provides plenty of lattitude and techniques that will glean this information quickly (I recall one I was taught involving a jemmy, some vaseline and a very specific threat that would have worked on me and 90% of folks) in a field situation. But in a civilian situation who decides who to torture? How many innocents is it worth abusing to save one innocent? How many crazies do we create? Who decides? Who watches the watchmen?
For a more strategic debrief there are plenty of psychological approaches that will get the necessary data in a more coherent and complete format than any form of torture.
The idea that torture is effective or ever justified is disgusting to any human being. You should be ashamed.
Dissappointed Sam
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OOOOOOOOOOHOHOHOHOHO!! I do dearly hope 'Philip Zelikow shares this invaluable information and wisest of advice (beautifully written and extensivly explained in his article) with congress and the American people so that these dictators, I'm sorry, X president and officials may be "brought to justice" for the "terror" they themselves have brought upon the nation!!! Who wants to guess if congress had allowed him, whether Bush would've chosen to remain dictator-in-chief for life? I shudder at the thought!!
Hilarious comment on the love-in, more formally known as a sorry excuse for an interview, between Hannidy and Chaney!! Seriously, is this what cable journalism has become in America? So sad!! My God!! Everybody knows on the opposit side of the spectrum that Kieth Olberman absolutely adors the rain that waters the grass that Barack Obama walks on, but if he had the chance to interview him, I doubt very much he'd drule all over him!! Isn't there some kind of rule or law that journalists must abide by? Have we thrown that out the window like we have the constitution? I guess so. If the constitution doesn't matter, then nothing else certainly does either.
The most chilling part of the Philip Zelikow article, for me, was the following...
"The underlying absurdity of the administration's position can be summarized this way. Once you get to a substantive compliance analysis for "cruel, inhuman, and degrading" you get the position that the substantive standard is the same as it is in analogous U.S. constitutional law. So the OLC must argue, in effect, that the methods and the conditions of confinement in the CIA program could constitutionally be inflicted on American citizens in a county jail.
In other words, Americans in any town of this country could constitutionally be hung from the ceiling naked, sleep deprived, water boarded, and all the rest -- if the alleged national security justification was compelling. I did not believe our federal courts could reasonably be expected to agree with such a reading of the Constitution."
And to think that since the pushover congress gave him a blank check, the only thing that stopped it, or indeed stopped similar practices from being caried out on ordinary American citizens, was the Supreme court by one vote!! This is not how our founders intended our government to work!!
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Andy Post #1: hear hear!!!!
In all sincerity, though, to ensure that we never torture again, if congress does not pass rigarous strict legislation specificly detailing what the CIA can do to who, wwo can do what in what circumstances, in what specific times, I sware to God, they don't deserve the money and the votes they're given, and we all may as well just allow ourselves to become a dictatorship. Hey look at the bright side! At least we wouldn't have to spend billions and billions for our "defence" against these God awfull "terrorists," because we will have become them!! As the saying goes, if you can't beat them, join them.
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I've just watched Gloria's Story - what a lovely, inspirational young person she is. I wish her all the best in her efforts to be the person she wants to be. super-mo77
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Justin, understand this, Fixed News Channel (aka sky television in the United Kingdom)is nothing more than the public relations arm of the Republican Party. They have a vested interest in defending the Bush record, even if the rest of the world has long since figured out what their game is.
As for Manity, (Kieth Olbermen's name for Sean Hannity, especially during the Worst Person in the World Segment.)there is nothing funny about a man who continued to promote Sir Alan Stanford's securities firm on his radio program long after he's been endicted.
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#12, Sam, I saw the Watchmen movie. They were perverted.
I don't even want to watch them.
#7, aquarigal, and roses, too.
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The thing Americans, like Dick Cheney dont realize is how ineffective torture really is. A prisoner will say anything to stop from being tortured and will proably give false imformation. The result of false imformation is the waste of time and resources. Torture is not worth it.
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Justin, Justin, Justin
I'm surprised you find yourself in agreement with the post from "LivinginLaLaLand" in yesterday's blog. The dilemma he/she describes only arrives through previous mistaken action. If you take a certain road, which you know to be wrong, don't be surprised if it leads you to further problems - and dilemmas.
Supporting the tyrannical Shah of Iran was wrong. Toppling his predecessor was wrong. Getting into bed with Saddam Hussein was wrong. Deposing Salvador Allende was wrong. Funding and supporting Al Qaeda was wrong. Supporting Israeli terror was wrong.
Some of these actions took both USA, and Britain, down the road which led them to a position where they were starving the people in Iraq - year after year. Dennis Halliday and Hans von Sponek couldn't have made the situation clearer - if Clinton/Major/Blair/Bush were under any illusion. The same starvation and deprivation technique has been used in Gaza. It creates a breeding ground which transfers ordinary moderate people into people with a cause - people bent on revenge for the loss of their loved ones - for the loss of their dignity and pride. We would have reacted exactly the same had we been overun by the Nazis in 1940 - it's not a condition unique to Muslims.
It requires brave leadership to avoid conflict - to avoid inflicting injustice on other countries - to control your security services - to major on diplomacy - and to consider your actions and consequences.
Setting and adhering to certain principles is essential - you remove the incentive that motivates otherwise moderate people. Sure you have a few criminals to deal with - that's the case in every country - but they're in manageable numbers - but these foreign policies pursued by USA and UK have incensed thousands and thousands. If they're not active combatants - they're providing cover - and fundraising - and recruitment.
It's these actions which lead to these dilemmas. And torture - and illegal detention camps fuel the fire. How many Guantanamo inmates, and all the others in the other camps, have been successfully prosecuted?
The situation that "LivinginLaLaLand" describes is very rare - as is the ticking bomb theory. Once a "terrorist" is picked up - his value is in the first three days. After that his colleagues simply change their plans - move location. They assume he'll talk - at some point. In any event - most of these groups operate in cells - so the information they have is limited to their operation.
"LivinginLaLaLand" and Justin might like to answer this. If the security services raid a house to arrest a suspect who might be involved in an imminent assassination plot and he's not there - but his seven year daughter is - would you torture his daughter to find out where he is? And what would you do to her - waterboarding? Strip her naked? Electrodes on her genitals?
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Well NO S
Of course there were descanters. there were SOME professionals at work.Some who could look at Gonzo gongallass 's death penalty record as The hang mans assistant (gw helper) in killing so many people.
White victims describing white perps and black dudes getting executed.
So they may have thought ." this guy is evil "
and they may have been scared to say anything for so long.
Cheney still intimidates people and will get some way some one as his mole.
He should be in solitary for life.
---
richard the lion heart well said , again.but Justin is a little to the hard core right.
and how many kids were tortured I wonder.
Seems I have heard some stories. Taking away from family is kidnap.
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12 again No S . Justin agreeing with the more right wing. No never.
so many tortures may produce as many different plans in waiting. as opposed to one real one.
again on the cover up .
NO s.
the guys that brought us cases of cash (oh no that was their contractor friends,not us) who lied every way every where, who gave up CIA agents and endangered diplomats, blah blah blah blah.
they would try to supress decent.
the same ones that sacked any general that did not agree with the admins general plan.
that said that tillman was not hurt by his own.
that prevented people letting press photo their kids coming back dead.
They wouldn't hide anything.
And some think good Justin has a grasp of reality.
I'm not one of them.
Still looking through the rose tinted tourist glasses of life.
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Geneva convention only applies in war.
some say lack of geneva means do what we like.
but is us that has chosen to not declare war. Afganistan did not attack US. some terros did.
so the afgans were not given choice to declare war.
So either we give em GC rights or we say GC does not apply and then give them the same rights(we better) as the US civil law.
If we have sought extradition.
Which would be hard with a "country" we are at war with.
either way torture is not allowed.
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I think the question mark at the end of the title says it all about the Editors stance.
Head in sand , open mouth shout "NONONONO"
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"Seriously, is this what cable journalism has become in America?"
No! Geez! Gimme break.
That's what it's always been.
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It seems to me that many Americans have no problem with twisting, breaking, or even ignoring the laws when it comes to foreigners. After all, those tortured people are NOT Americans, thus it is okay to leave the decision of applying the law to how we feel at the day or under the influence of a substance. Common to all non Americans that how most Americans DO NOT deserve the freedom they have, thus said, it is considered a charity when given to non Americans, by Americans.
Doesn’t that remind us of the Roman Empire?? Where non Roman where treated as savages that can be killed at the behest of the Roman Master.
How can America preach freedom, when non American is considered a savage that can be killed if felt as a threat???
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If Dick Cheney is so keen on water boarding then perhaps someone should book a session for him so that we can finally get to the bottom of the Valerie Plame affair.
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Justin,
I would think twice before siding with Livinginlalaland's views. After all, it has been said that people who use more than one exclamation mark after a written sentence should be watched carefully. Preferably from a safe distance. ;-)
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The test will come when US personnel civil or military suffer rendition by being picked up in a foreign country, then transporterd to a controlled facility and suffer torture of the kind approved by a US government,and considerd acceptable as long as they confess. There is no defence for these kind of actions. It is a discrace that those personnel approving and responsible for kidnapping many completely innocent persons and locked up for time periods measured in years, are allowed to walk free.
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I know you are opposed to the use of torture Justin, and I respect your view.
But I don't see that one official saying he disagreed with X proves a cover up. I was at a meeting at work yesterday, there was at least one dissenting view on most issues we discussed. We made a decision.
For me the $64K question is why our media devote so much to this issue whilst not devoting the same attention to the abuses by the other side in the conflict?
There were three people subject to waterboarding - very nasty, probably 'torture' (IMHO) but all three are still alive and physically uninjured. This is being reported again and again and again, years after the events. The facts are being selectively reported. The tone is not neutral.
Ten minutes on the internet will find you dozens of the AQ hack off the head of a conscious, tied and struggling prisoner videos. Some have never been mentioned even once by the media. Some are mentioned once/twice and forgotten. Some news reports report the death, show the start of the video but then don't even clearly state what happened to the prisoner next.
Is this deliberate manipulation of the news to create a view (held by many) that the US is engaged in mass torture, whilst the jihadists are acceptable?
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Yes I can imagine that disenting opinions were discouraged/removed. I doubt that the 'legal advice' that waterboarding was not torture was true.
Waterboarding has a long history and has occurred in the US as well
"Cases of waterboarding have occurred on U.S. soil, as well. In 1983, Texas Sheriff James Parker was charged, along with three of his deputies, for handcuffing prisoners to chairs, placing towels over their faces, and pouring water on the cloth until they gave what the officers considered to be confessions. The sheriff and his deputies were all convicted and sentenced to four years in prison."
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15886834
So if someone has been convicted in a US court, saying it is not a crime seems highly doubtful.
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Justin "waterboarding is always wrong except when it might not be"
The problem with that approach is that you will only really know whether or not useful information has been "extracted" after the fact. The only right option is to avoid torture in the first place. To condone or defend torture is to deny the virtues you seek to protect.
PS I do expect that if GWB were ever subjected to waterboarding it would be only nminutes the ex-commander in chief becomes Blub-ya.
PPS Interesting to note that both Dick and GWB avoided serving in Vietnam where they might have had to place their safety in risk but that John McCain who did serve and who was a victim of torture takes the view that the US should not carry out torture.
You're all doing very well !!
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#29 jon112uk wrote
"For me the $64K question is why our media devote so much to this issue whilst not devoting the same attention to the abuses by the other side in the conflict?"
I did try and explain this in the previous blog. The reason this is getting more media attention is because it is the American Government. A country apparently built upon justice & liberty etc. People expect terrorists to commit these kind of disgusting, repulsive acts of violence and torture. They do not expect their own government to forfeit the moral high-ground by doing what the enemy would do.
Neither is acceptable, but better to fight the monster than become it. THAT is why the media covers it at home more than abroad. Simple, really. No bias involved.
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Richard SM (19),
- "If you take a certain road, which you know to be wrong, don't be surprised if it leads you to further problems - and dilemmas."
Too true! Well said!Jack (22),
- "some say lack of geneva means do what we like.
Spot on! We live in hope of eventual justice, but it is sometimes a long time coming....but is us that has chosen to not declare war. Afganistan did not attack US. some terros did.
so the afgans were not given choice to declare war.
So either we give em GC rights or we say GC does not apply and then give them the same rights(we better) as the US civil law."
Jon112uk (29),
- "For me the $64K question is why our media devote so much to this issue whilst not devoting the same attention to the abuses by the other side in the conflict?"
Motes and beams, dear boy, motes and beams....Complain about this comment
I doubt that operators in the clandestine services feel constrained by legal opinions, when the existence of their operations are still denied by the government.
I have yet to see any law suits over the practice of extra-ordinary rendition make any headway in US courts.
The main reason for the change of heart in the Obama administration is not that the legal opinion has changed, they just do not want to appear politically partisan.
Until you see Dubya or Darth Cheney on trial, you will not see anything come of this in US courts except more of the same old political shuffling and government cover-ups.
As self-righteous as the new administration may pretend to be, I doubt that the government will give up any of the power it has usurped.
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I see Obama's done another U turn on prosecuting CIA or others on the torture issue - his learning curve is going to be very long, hopefully not as long as our current British government who still has not reached the end after 12 years, and is supported by the bbbc, who are left wing, not right wing as SamTyler 1969 stated.
Guns and Religion says "I know that many of you are dead-set against capital punishment"
If a referendum was made in Britain on this issue, just over 50% would bring it back for certain offences such as child murder etc. It is the British government and bbc that makes it so policially incorrect to state so.
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Re #26
The problem with having Cheney go through Waterboarding is that he'd probably die of a heart attack while you're trying to exact information from him. He does after all have a heart condition.
I don't know if I should feel sorry for Cheney and Company or outraged. They seem to think that using torture works. I think they have dilberately ignored history inorder to justify their twisted thirst for revenge.
All Cheney and Company had to do was look at history and they would have known that Torture does not work. The Spanish Inquisition torture a lot of people. People would confess to being heratics simply to get the torture to stop. A little closer to home, you have the Salem Witch Trials where people were tortured into confessing to practicing witch craft in spite of suspect evidence given by four young women who were out to gain a bit of revenge against people in their community whom they were upset with. Torture does not work. It never has. Cheney and Company should have realized that.
In that interview with Fox the other night, CVheney admitted that the Bush administration really didn't take or believe that Al Quieda was a serious threat until after 9-11, this in spite of the Bombing of the USS Cole and the American Embassy in Saudi Arabia, and in spite of warnings from the Clinton Administration. The Bush Administration basically ignored intelligence reports that said al wuieda was planning an attack.
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The point of nonviolence is to build a floor, a strong new floor, beneath which we can no longer sink. A platform which stands a few feet above napalm, torture, exploitation, poison gas, A and H bombs, the works. Give man a decent place to stand.
--Joan Baez
I think Mr. Cheney would feel differently if a world court were trying to torture a confession from him that the subject matter of his secret energy meeting was to establish a pipeline through Afghanistan and Iraq at any cost to civilian life, and that he intentionally manipulated false evidence of WMD's in Iraq to start a war that killed hundred thousands.
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I am also rather suprised by Justin's link to livingland. Read it twice but I can't actually make out what the point is.
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Ref 29, Jon
"For me the $64K question is why our media devote so much to this issue whilst not devoting the same attention to the abuses by the other side in the conflict?"
I suspect the reason for the alleged bias in media coverage is because one involves torture ordered and carried out by the government of a nation that claims to be the leader of the free world and a champion of law and order, while the other was committed by a criminal gang.
Should civilized people act like savages because head shrinkers in the Amazon region do (and some at the Buchenwald concentration camp did)? Should the police use the same tactics as the criminals they persecute and arrest?
Those that point out the fact that most Americans support the use of torture under "certain circumstances" should reflect on the meaning of their assertion. Are they saying that torture is justified when it is carried out to defend the security or interests of the USA, but it is an abhorrent practice when someone else does it?
I fear dictionaries may have to undergo a major revision to change the definition of hypocrisy and cynicism.
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7. At 11:44pm on 21 Apr 2009, aquarizonagal wrote:
"Where oh where have they been until now? Why did this person not go public ala "deep throat?" Why wait until now?"
I am going to upset a lot of people.
I recall (and I am not a US citizen, so not as directly involved) Bush and Republicans making little secret that they would use torture before the second presidential campaign. I remember the 'armchair torturers' defending it; I remember Rumsfeld telling everyone the Geneva conventions were 'outmoded' and need not apply to the USA.
Where were all those people who now say torture is wrong then?
There are one or two who write on this blog whose views I despise, and I make no secret of it. I've added another handful to the list. But when the knock is heard on their doors before dawn, I would still speak for them.
Even though I can see full well that when 'they' come for me in the early hours, they will not speak for me.
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Ref 18, Polite
"The thing Americans, like Dick Cheney dont realize is how ineffective torture really is."
I suspect Mr. Cheney and his cohorts were well aware of the questionable results of torture when they ordered it. What they were also well aware of was the need to transform their image after ignoring all the warnings of an imminent attack against the USA, almost 8 months after the Inauguration of President George W. Bush. When attacks against Al Qaeda and removing the Taleban from power in Afghanistan failed to produce conclusive evidence of progress, insofar as not being able to capture or kill the mastermind of 9/11, they had no choice but to implement Plan B: Iraq and a display of suspects confessing guilt.
By giving an illusion of progress, while maintaining a climate of fear, they ensured the re-election of a hapless President by a comfortable margin.
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As a practical matter I think you end up with no official sanction of torture, then in those rare instances - like in the movies when the Governor of California is going to save the world by beating information out of someone, its done with the knowledge that its a criminal act. If Arnold is right and saves the world he might be able to get off the charge in the end.
The problem with Cheney evident in his speaking on the subject is that he actually thinks that he, and Americans, are superior in some innate way to all other humans inhabiting the world. That having power justifies the abuse of it. He treats the US people this way, as though he, and his chosen cronies are superior and entitled - thus they manipulate and mislead the people 'for their own good'. Therefore all the money should stay with them, since they are better qualified to trickle it down.
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Ref 40, British-ish
There were dissenters and protesters, but our numbers were small and our actions were timid at best. You are, apparently, unaware of the climate of fear that prevailed in the USA until as recently as 3 or 4 years ago. Many Democrats were downright scared to voice their views or even feeble expressions of criticism at a time when President George W. Bush was - literally - being venerated in some parts of the country as a modern-day Messiah and the Saviour of the USA.
The effectiveness of the misinformation campaign launched after 9/11, and the effectiveness of a campaign of fear used to carry out objectives that had little to do with 9/11, produced a climate of suspicion and hatred not seen in this country since the McCarthy era.
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All the intelligence community has to do is demonstrate that torture saved at least one American life and that will vindicate their position. Based on reports it's easy to conclude that many thousands of American lives were saved and probably the lives of many more in other countries by torturing the terrorist prisoners. By accounts of the GITMO detainee who is in Britain now, the British government benefited considerably from information the US extracted from him and was most eager that he should be effectively interrogated. Now who is willing to give up their own life and that of their children as a sacrifice in the name of no more torture of these terrorists, raise your hand? How nice it is to know that when all the foolishness in the public debate is outside on the internet, on television, and in the streets, when it comes to the real nuts and bolts issue of what do we do with a particular detainee who may know something vital to the survival and well being of the United States, there is no doubt that the answer will always be, whatever is necessary. I don't just expect, I demand that my government continue to use this valuable tool which has proven can work when sufficiently persistent and properly applied. What the Obama administration needs to do is to institute tighter security to prevent leaks that cost it political capital. If Obama thinks he will be allowed to get away with compromising the security of the United States for some naive view of public morality or international law, he is mistaken and will surely find that out the hard way. I think he's smarter than that. It's a good area for a policy of don't ask, don't tell.
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AA Prescott (38),
- "I am also rather suprised by Justin's link to livingland. Read it twice but I can't actually make out what the point is."
I suspect your irony detectors need a clean. Don't worry, you're not alone in that.;-)
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I know this excerpt has been brought up before on this blog, but I think it is worth remind everyone of what patriotism really is:
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Ben Franklin
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#44 So logically this would be the worldwide standard, and torture of every American tourist abroad is also permissible if it might save just one life - even the life of what the US would deem a terrorist operative. De-evolution, anyone?
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When I was young I read books by Oreste Pinto, a well-known spycatcher of the 1st and 2nd World Wars. He was totally opposed to torture of any kind, not only because it was WRONG, but also because it was ineffective. Tormented people, as any abused child knows, "confess" to anything in an effort to stop the torment. Befriend the person and they'll tell you any thing.
This torture policy was implemented by Bush-Cheney and has their fingerprints all over it. I find it gratifying that Obama has reversed his original decision not to "look backwards" on this. I find it even more gratifying that he gave Cheney enough time to go on TV and admit that he was responsible for it. Now let's see whether Eric Holder is allowed, and is willing, to bring charges.
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I guess we could bomb or nuke a bunch of Arab countries or sections thereof and that would "save lives" to. This is about an admninstration that felt it had no restraints, that it was the "law" and anything it did was legal because they said so. In the end, we are all responsible because they were "elected". If democratic forms of government are going to continue there needs to be a separation of Business and State in the same sense as there is with Church and State, as Business has replaced the Church as the primary influnence in government. When you vote, you need to think. Bush/Cheney, lied to get into war, lied about torture, 9/11 happened while they were in office, financial collapse wasw caused by their administration's refusal to regulate the industry. Cheney should be in hiding, not on TV reminding us all of what horrible people they are. Like it or not, it is about oil. These guys are from Texas.
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Re 46
Ben Franklin said that during the Revolution, a revolution which I doubt either Cheney or Bush would have supported had they lived during that period of time. What frustrates me about the Bush administration so much is that neither Bush or Cheney served in Vietnam, yet were perfectly willing to send other people's sons and daughters into harms way. Clinton, didn't serve in Vietnam but tried to work towards stopping the Violence. Neither Bush nor Cheney served, and during the election of 04 questioned the Patriotism of John Kerry, a man who actually did serve in Vietnam. Neither Bush nor Cheney seem to have a conscience, which I find disturbing.
I believe that Ben Franklin would not have had much use for people like George Walker Bush and Richard Cheney. I think his comments on Liberty and Safety fit perfectly when it comes to the former administration. I have a feeling that neither the former Vice President nor Former President will go with out getting indicted. I believe that the Attorney General will have to appoint a special council to investigate this mess. I realize that a trial would no doubt be painful for this country to go through. However, the results of a trial will be well worth it in the long run and will allow the United States, of which I am a citizen, to rehabilitate it's reputation within the larger international community.
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Did anyone see Zelikow's interview with Rachel Maddow on last night's program? (Yes, I admit I am a Rachel watcher and NOT a FOX watcher, so get over it). He gave the impression he was part robot...even the Tin Man had more personality. I can thoroughly believe he could burrow in, keep his head down and convince himself that by offering his well-reasoned opposing legal opinion he had done his bit. Now that he's in the clear and safe from persecution by Darth Cheney's death squads, he can come forward and make a bid to be his generation's John Dean. I want to like this guy but I just can't.
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OrVilleThird #2: '"I personally oppose torture. It's worth noting that this nation was founded on opposition to arbitrary imprisonment, opposition to cruel and unusual punishment, and the presumption the a person is innocent until proven guilty- all of which torture denies."
Exactly!! Which based on this fact, when America does it, our actions simply dubb us the largest oxymoron and biggest hypocrit in the history of nationhood full stop!! I can tell you one thing, if a terror attack had happened to France or Britain on the same scale as 9/11, whereby 3000 wholly innocent Britains or Frenchmen were murdered, you can bet your bottom dollar that their governments would not just simply cast off any and all semblance of their nations's values, morals and beliefs, in a vane attempt to fight these terrorists!! They would realise that the best way to fight the terrorists is to display and practice the "values" that the terrorists attacked them for!! That it is those very values and morals that makes them better than the terrorists, and that gives them the right to defend themselves against those who would do them harm!! But does the United States of America see that obvious truth? Of course not!! But really I'm not surprised. After all, it was sir Winstin Churchill who very painfully and estutefully observed that "America can always be relyed upon to do the right thing...after it has tryed every other conceivable aulternitive." So I suppose our descent into torture, water boarding and the like is just one of the many "conceivable aulternitives" that we are trying before we eventually arrive upon the right decision. That is if we manage to do so before we become a totalitarian state first!! This could be a long time coming. I tell you. In my opinion, and I'm sure millions around the world, the United States of America, as a result of these deplorable actions, is no longer the "city upon a hill" if it ever was. No,w with one grand swoop, the "city upon a hill" has now been transformed into the shanty town in a vally.
SamTyler1969 #12: I think you went a little too far in dubbing the BBC a right wing news organisation based upon the views of one person who happens to work there. But other than that I wholeheartedly agree with your sentaments!
Richard_SM #19: Foreign policy is not nearly as black and white as you make it out to be. I agree with you on the crux of your statement, however, please remember, we "got into bed with Saddam Husein" to fight the Soviets, who we deamed a bigger threat to us than Saddam, awfull though he was. We funded and suppored Al Quida for the same reason. Now. Did we have selfish means and ends when pursuing any of our foreign policy objectives over the past half century? Of course we did!! Were they right? Of course not!! But that is not to say that there weren't certain aspects of certain specific policies that were right at the time as a means of achieveing a larger goal.
Andy Post #24: Perhaps I was a bit harsh when writing that. Cable news during the day isn't so bad. It is during prime time when it gets at times nausiating.
#28: I use multiple exclimation marks as you can plainly see!!!!! But I asure you, I am no mentally unstable, violent person, I'm just really pashonit about the things I comment on.
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#44
Firstly, paragraphs would be nice.
Secondly, torture is not a tool. It is an inhuman act of foul proportions.
Thirdly, how can you condone terrorsits that torture, but justify torture by your own government? Do you really fail to see the hypocracy there? Because you think that your country is more righteous, has better values and can never be wrong compared to any other? It is that inward thinking that leads to all the troubles in this world. Your lack of humanity & reason, plus your abundance of ignorance and is truly sickening.
Before you try and misquote me, I am 100% opposed to terrorists and extremists (of any religion), but there is always a choice when it comes to torture. There are always options - options which were ignored by a Government who repsonded too late and would stop at nothing to protect their own hide.
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Ref 51, American
I agree with everything you said, but I must confess that I have misgivings about the logic of prosecuting Bush Administration officials for crimes against humanity at a time when our goal should be to unite the country to help us overcome the economic and fiscal woes that threaten our way of life and our security.
Yes, those that have committed crimes and abuses of power deserve punishment or, as a minimum, exposure, but the revelations that are bound to emerge from a trial would be so damaging that we may never be able to restore our moral standing or credibility in the world. I suspect that people worldwide view this travesty of justice not only as devoid of morality and values, but as a manifestation of American principles. As a democratic society we had the opportunity to reject the policies of the Bush Administration in 04, instead, we re-elected George W. Bush for four more years by a comfortable margin.
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To GPBritus, ROBL52US, MarcusAurellius, HubertGrove, Jerry98017 et al.
If torture is so effective and necessary for national interests as you claim, then why not extend its use?
When a crime occurs in an area you frequent and the perpetrator was seen driving a car the same colour as yours, why shouldn't the investigating authorities pick you up and when you deny involvement, subject you to some torture just to make sure? After all, it's in the national interests that crime is cleaned up. And torture is effective as you say - and quicker than wasting a lot of Police time checking out your story.
And why not allow the Tax/IRS to use torture - perhaps on a random basis - just to make sure people have declared all their income? It's in the national interest to make sure people pay their taxes. Pulling in say - 1 in 50 for a little water-boarding might lead to an increase in tax revenues.
Perhaps you'd like to lobby the politicians for a change in the law. Let us know how you get on.
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#44
Marcus,
Once again you advocate policies that support Al Qaeda and help them recruit terrorists to act against the United States. We need to know what else you plan to do to help them. Expect a knock on the door real soon.
Meanwhile you may want to practice holding your breath.
Security Sam
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Also, we should remember that congress had a role to play with oversight committees and abdicated their role in all of this. It is interesting to watch congress assume no responsbility for any of this. Congress, in the checks and balance part of the equation, did nothing. Congress is the people's representative and they did nothing except make things worse. Congress gave Bush/Cheney a free pass. If there is anger it should also be directed at your local congressional representatives too. WE have a system and the system failed, but that does not mean that no one should be held accountable. Our political system is distant from the people. Elitist in every sense of the word. Jefferson was right, every eight years or so the people need to go to Washington and run them out of town because their personal self-interest and the ties to lobbyist do not represent the interest of the people they serve. Now the Intelligence Committees will look into all this. What were they doing before? Opportunist...vultures....self-serving syncophants. I'm sure they will muster the appropriate outrage when the cameras are on. Since Reagan, acting has been a mandatory political skill.
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#44. How are you be so certain that torture is of any value? Are you an expert on the subject or just whistling in the dark? You can demand whatever you want from your government but nothing anyone can do will preserve America when people are willing to sell their souls for mere promises. America has a best before date and by the appearance of the world situation it isn't too far away. Every empire ever known has crumbled over time. What makes you think USA is any different?
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#17
Guns,
If they weren't, it wouldn't be fun, would it?
Kinky Sam
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8012036.stm
has a bit of relevance to the arguments put forward by some including me.
Bush and Dick should be on trial.
and reminds those that say WB (warner Bros might be best changing their name is this becomes a standard an-acronym ,though many of their films simulate the same feeling) happened to more than 3 people.
I suspect those that did not file a complete report on their encounters with the enemy. which I suspect is more than got reported.
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I am not a lawyer, but just interested in public issue like this one. One problem with the western world is too much civilisation. For God sake these people are wicked terrors who are ready to destroy innocent lives. They have done it in New York, London, Tel Aviv, Moscow and several other cities. If there are other means more that torture to extract information or intelligence from them, please the intelligent guys should use them freely without being questioned. My view is personal but terrorists should be taught hard lessons.
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It is interesting however, that the Senate Armed Services Committee have quickly identified the implications of their investigations. Could you ever imagine an enquiry in the UK being this clear?
'Conclusion 19: The abuse of detainees at Abu Ghraib in late 2003 was not simply the result of a few soldiers acting on their own. Interrogation techniques such as stripping detainees of their clothes, placing them in stress positions, and using military working dogs to intimidate them appeared in Iraq only after they had been approved for use in Afghanistan and at GTMO. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld’s December 2, 2002 authorization of aggressive interrogation techniques and subsequent interrogation policies and plans approved by senior military and civilian officials conveyed the message that physical pressures and degradation were appropriate treatment for detainees in U.S. military custody. What followed was an erosion in standards dictating that detainees be treated humanely.'
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Re 56
It wasn't as wide a margin as you would think. If results in Ohio had swung just a few thousand votes the other way, Bush would never have had a 2nd term. Part of Bushes problem is that he was never elected for a first term. He was appointed by the Supreme Court, who had Five Justices who were appointed either by his father or Ronald Reagan. The vote on the Florida recount was devided by party lines, which is not what you want out of the Supreme Court.
In spite of this, Bush Believed he had a mandate to move the country to the right of center when no actual mandate existed. After the 2004 Election he again acted as if he had a mandate when none existed. Bush never cared about what the people thought. I don't think he ever read any international treaty that he's signed. I don't think he actually cared whether or not torture was legal or not. He had made up his mind, and that was going to be the policy. Sadly, this stubbornness has cost the united states.
I think when all the evidence is exposed what little support George Bush enjoys will evaporate. Many conservitives, are also uncomfortable with what the Administration has done. I realize what Fox news and the rest of the rightwing spin machine has argued in support of the previous administration but most of the country is actuall outraged by what they have done. No, we need this investigation. We need to show the world that we will live up to our ideals and practice what we preach.
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#53
OK, OK! Just calm down. Use as many exclamation marks as you want. I do believe that you are not a mantally ustable person and I never suggested you were. My post was meant to be a light-hearted irony aimed at Justin and Livinginlalaland, not at you.
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#56
If the government uses torture to ensure taxes are being paid, it will most likely be the corner-shop owners who get it and we will be back to square one- people claiming that torture is used disprportionately against a certain group of the population. :-)
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#56 Right...and instruct the cops to beat the c**p out of anyone stopped for DUI or driving while talking on a cell phone (before charge, trial or conviction) - that might save just one life.
It's the old 'us and them' as long as 'them' is limited to foreignors with swarthy skin, then 'us' is A-OK with torturing them. When its your white child who wore an Osama t-shirt to school, or who put something silly on a blog, who gets tortured you might feel differently...but by then you would be a 'them' so 'us' won't mind.
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#62...see the other side of the coin, how many mothers and children did the US kill in Iraq over fake WMD info...and this torture occurs BEFORE they know if the person has any info, or is innocent, or is charged, tried or convicted. How many lives would have been saved if the UN had tortured Rumsfeld-Bush-Cheney-Powell to verify the WMD info before we went to war?
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O is right. You can't go after the small fish that execute orders. You have to go after the big fish who actually concocted the sick practice. So, President Obama... does that mean that we are going to see Aschcroft, Mukasey and even, say, your predecessor in the dock???
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62 these people-- now there's a telling phrase.
http://www.oxfamamerica.org/newsandpublications/press_releases/number-of-people-affected-by-climate-disaster-up-54-percent-by-2015
who brought this to the people of the world.
Not the poor people of Afghanistan.
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62. At 2:57pm on 22 Apr 2009, Ladioloyede
It seems to me you might be involved in terrorist activities and if you float I will know.
If you sink you are free to go.
Get a conscience
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not for sold in the USA or its territories.
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Cheney should be in hiding, not on TV reminding us all of what horrible people they are. Like it or not, it is about oil. These guys are from Texas.
Too True
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For eight years the Bush administration did an outstanding job of taking the focus of Americans off what is moral, replacing it with what is "legal." In other words, "what can we get away with?" At the same time, they replaced justice with vengeance, striking out at a nation that represented no threat to the US (we know now, of course, that the plans to invade Iraq for oil were laid out by Cheney and his Energy Team months before 9-11), torturing prisoners who were guilty of nothing but who would confess to anything to escape the pain.
Furthermore, despite the very recent recognition of the fact that torture was condoned much higher up the chain of command than "a few bad apples," it does not excuse the actions of those apples. Given an order to do something immoral, a soldier has the right and the responsibility to refuse. Had those refusals come, a very bright light would have been placed on our torture policy quite early, and we might have escaped worldwide scorn; Abu Ghraib might have not served as a recruiting tool for Osama bin Laden and the Taleban. No, while torture was assertively promoted from the White house on down, it was still committed by psychopaths within our military ranks - people who should have been in prison, not destroying the reputation of our Armed Forces.
Any nation that confuses what is legal with what is moral or replaces justice with vengeance will destroy itself. America's support of neoconservative GOP madmen may have been its last great stumble on the world stage.
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Actually, happylaze, Cheney is from Wyoming - a coal state. It's all about fossil fuel, prehistoric remains used by dinosaur civilizations.
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Andy (#1) "It's not like we don't suspend our laws in special circumstances. We suspend the interpretation of homicide as murder from in combat (and well we should). We can do the same for torture."
There are no laws on murder "suspended" to accomodate military operations. Civil laws just don't apply in those situations. And "homicide" isn't necessarily murder anyway. It can be manslaughter or negligent homicide or justifiable homicide.
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75 Lol No he is from hell,
but I get your point.
(There should have been quotation marks around the first bit)
Though it is maybe as you pointed out as true as too true.
Still Texas seems to change some people. and washington for that matter.
" psychopaths within our military ranks - people who should have been in prison, not destroying the reputation of our Armed Forces."
and while were looking at that america should look at its own incarceration system.
good luck don't get ploughed over by the dinos.
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S&M
"If torture is so effective and necessary for national interests as you claim, then why not extend its use?"
It is. It used to be more overt. We called it giving the suspect the third degree. Now police have psychologists who know just how to push a suspect's hot buttons but I think occasionally physical force is still used but not frequently publicized. Using psychology on captives from other cultures is not as effective. We don't know what particular hot buttons work best on each particular one. Brute force is the one thing we know will get some reaction. Far from promoting al Qaeda, the widespread publicity that if you join al Qaeda and are captured by the Americans, you may be tortured may act as a deterrent. That argument has no less proven validity than the other side's. If Obama relaxes his grip and we have another successful terrorist attack on the US, it will give the Republicans a new lease on life by handing them the "I toldya so" argument on a silver platter. When you take all of the mistakes President Bush committed such as his delayed response to hurricaine Katrina, his failure to foresee the financial crisis and head it off and compare them to the way he protected America after 9-11 from further attacks, his shortcomings pale by comparison. He got the message and answered the call. Let's see if his successor is as successful.
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76 well said.
further if it is possible to capture a soldier in combat it is the recognised way.
If they are fighting back or would do if they knew you were there seems to change things, but people that put their hands up etc are supposed to be taken prisoner. I am not military so do not follow those rules too closely but that was the concept instilled into me a a kid about the difference between armies and murderers.
the army will take prisoners not kill them because it is too difficult to proceed without behaving in a manner called civilised.
Those that do murder people surrendering are committing a crime .
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America walks a fine line with our freedoms,no one wants some one to rock the boat and ruin it for everyone else.From gun control,religion,speech, and our many other freedoms.Anything a government justifies for enemies might be eventually used against it's own people.Bush constantly took our freedoms to the edge.The patriot act was unconstitutional.There were many scary things by the GOP.The worst was Black Water.The owners sister was former head of GOP in Michigan her husband Dick Devos tried and failed to run for Governor of Michigan.The Republican Party should never have been allowed to make a private army using tax payers money.You never know when some one might justify acts against you.Where to draw the line is always an important question.Water boarding and torture is just a piece of the bigger question.I don't think torture of any kind is necessary,investigative work always comes up with more info than torture,It works very well for police departments so why not for international governments as well.Torture only works for confessions whether they are real or forced.We can do better than that.I would rather the American government protect my freedoms first than my life.What is a life without freedom.
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ASF (#64) "The vote on the Florida recount was devided by party lines, which is not what you want out of the Supreme Court."
That's not at all clear, and is certainly an oversimplification. The party affiliations (if any) of justices are not usually known. Stevens and Souter, who voted to let the Florida recount continue, were appointed by Republican presidents. Souter is characterized as a Republican in this book: http://www.bsos.umd.edu/gvpt/lpbr/subpages/reviews/yarbrough1105.htm
Had the US Supreme Court not intervened, Bush may have carried Florida anyway. Had Bush not won in Florida, it may well have been because of biases on the Florida Supreme Court as significant as those on the US Supreme Court. We just don't know how it would have turned out, had a completely accurate, unbiased count been performed.
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MAII, I am hard put to find anything that the Bush administration did well.
Certainly, letting the AQ leadership get away when they had the chance to
destroy them was a major screw-up.
80, faeyth, I agree with you whole-heartedly. With the Bush administration
we saw a perturbation to the extreme right. The danger that we now face is
that the Democrats, being no more sensible than their Republican counterparts,
could take us to the extreme left.
Both parties have run up huge deficits. This is a way of confiscating private
property and squandering it. If the US was a corner hardware store, it
would have folded up long ago.
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43. At 12:52pm on 22 Apr 2009, saintDominick wrote:
Ref 40, British-ish
There were dissenters and protesters, but our numbers were small and our actions were timid at best. You are, apparently, unaware of the climate of fear that prevailed in the USA until as recently as 3 or 4 years ago.
I'm not, actually. And I understand the difficulties. I may have only learnt about McCarthy at school, but in fact I had a relative who was one of the few in public life who stood up to him. And I know a few people in Massachusetts living there in those more recent years. But what I have never understood is the amount of peer pressure that seems to come into play to make so many conform so readily. Or why so many ideals and values are derided or, somehow, made 'unpatriotic'.
One sees some of it here; and it only makes me more convinced that nationalism and patriotism are evils we could well do without.
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My national paper and CNN (last night) further enlightened me.
The USA executed Japanese who had used waterboarding on US prisoners
May be those seeking high office should do some kind of entrance exam. Learn some history of the world and universal standards of behaviour
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83, british-ish, by "nationalism" and "patriotism," I assume you to mean
meaningless conformity, such as we had during the McCarthy era or more
recently.
But, really, what we have to fear in the 21st century is not the true form
of either of those terms. What we have to fear is the disintegration of
nation-states under cultural. economic, and environmental stress
into "failed states," such as exist currently in Pakistan, Somalia, and
a few other places.
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#78
Marcus,
The ignorance is breathtaking even for you. The police do not use violence against prisoners except in a few rare cases simply because they are not that stupid and know they are on video within and outside of the station pretty much all the time (thanks to cell phone cameras). Those who do get caught and disciplined (like the guy with the TV crew this week).
As for knowing the buttons to push, of course we do. Professional interrogators know exactly how to question folks from different cultures. I'd bet the CIA even has a specialist who specializes in French Algerian electricians in New Jersey trailer parks. Better be careful, he's probably headed over right now to steal your cheese. Then again, he won;t have to use psychology. Since you think it works he can simply slap you about for a bit.
I'd go bury my jumper cables now if I were you.
Law Enforcement Sam
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Ref 83, British
"Or why so many ideals and values are derided or, somehow, made 'unpatriotic'."
As I am sure you already know misinformation campaigns are not unprecedented, and neither is mass hysteria. Goebbels did a pretty good job at it a few decades back.
I have to admit that the myopic views that prevailed 4 or 5 years ago were more evident in some states than in others. Florida, where I live was definitely not among the most enlightened.
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Ref 64, American
"Many conservitives, are also uncomfortable with what the Administration has done."
To be fair, many Republican fiscal and social conservatives were horrified with the irresponsible policies and action of the Bush Administration. Many went as far as abandoning the party and registering Independent.
My two best friends are Republicans, they are not Bush supporters, but their views on social and fiscal issues are definitely far from liberal, which is fine with me as it often leads to animated but civil debates.
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"...it only makes me more convinced that nationalism and patriotism are evils we could well do without."
Nationalism and patriotism are not the culprits, british-ish, so much as imperialism and jingoism.
This country has been an imperialistic nation since the Monroe Doctrine. It has waged wars without just cause in order to acquire resources it did not have and would not pay a fair price for; it has intervened in the politics and economics of other nations (Iran, Central and South America, for example), causing the deaths of thousands of innocents simply to create favorable markets for American manufacturers, American goods, and American "values." We export "democracy" when in actuality it is nothing more than capitalism. We create international tension and regional wars in order to create jobs for our Pentagon officials and markets for our weapons manufacturers.
As for jingoism, well, it has been waving proudly as a banner of the Republican Party, just as it was proudly waved by the German Nazi Party. It is the driving force of conservative think tanks and Fox News. It has considerable power to move sheep to whatever part of the pasture that they are needed, and America has more sheep now than ever before. It is not true patriotism, because patriotism requires empathy, personal sacrifice, and a very firm grasp of history; jingoism is little more than ignorance and arrogance, things we seem to have in abundance in this nation.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Nice one Chopper.
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Have to say I think old Matt here has a good angle on it when he says
"It was revealed, amongst other things, that the CIA waterboarded a notorious al-Qaeda chief 183 times in one month.
He had already confessed to his role in 9/11 on al-Jazeera, but the Bush administration famously did not watch that channel."
and found this one amusing.
"To sum up: a small number of Americans, who believe that Obama is the new Anti-Christ, are arming themselves to the teeth, fully expecting to have to defend their property from marauding gangs let loose by the recession and a grasping government.
Mercifully, this is a tiny minority, but what is worrying is the degree to which more and more Republicans are responding to just about anything that the Obama administration does with undiluted rage."
because some of us who like Obama think that it may well , but it will be marauding gangs of republicans.
Oh wait . They already did that.
This despite normal form is quite impartial.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/world_news_america/8011439.stm
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29. At 08:49am on 22 Apr 2009, jon112uk wrote:
"But I don't see that one official saying he disagreed with X proves a cover up."
The cover-up was not in the disagreement, it was in the deliberate search and destroy mission conducted by Bush administration officials. This almost seems like overkill, because the typical response of the Bush administration to truth-speakers was to fire the person and/or use a willing Fox News staff to destroy the person's professional and personal reputation. They must have been quite concerned about his response.
"For me the $64K question is why our media devote so much to this issue whilst not devoting the same attention to the abuses by the other side in the conflict?"
That is quite simple. We've long put our nation on a pedestal, a superior culture/civilization, a 'city on a hill' as Ronnie described it. Beyond that, some have gone so far as to define America as a "Christian" nation. So reports of our behavior violating these firmly-held beliefs is newsworthy. Public execution by the sword, as hideous as it may appear, has been a part of Islamic culture for centuries. It has become a powerful PR weapon for radical Islamists, not so much for shocking westerners but for recruiting equally violent followers.
"There were three people subject to waterboarding - very nasty, probably 'torture' (IMHO) but all three are still alive and physically uninjured."
Only in rare cases does waterboarding cause physical trauma. It is a psychological torment that has long-lasting psychological effects. We may well have taken sane prisoners and turned them into ticking time bombs. And there is no assurance that information they gave under duress is remotely accurate.
"Ten minutes on the internet will find you dozens of the AQ hack off the head of a conscious, tied and struggling prisoner videos. Some have never been mentioned even once by the media. Some are mentioned once/twice and forgotten. Some news reports report the death, show the start of the video but then don't even clearly state what happened to the prisoner next."
In an age where the internet is our media, how can you then claim that the media has not covered these atrocities adequately?
"Is this deliberate manipulation of the news to create a view (held by many) that the US is engaged in mass torture, whilst the jihadists are acceptable?"
Seeing that the US media wholeheartedly supported and even cheered from the sidelines for the invasion of Iraq and ignored much of the trauma that came later, I highly doubt that they have the spine to expose all of the atrocities conducted by our government. And we may never know how many people, innocent or guilty, who were "questioned" in nations with no firm laws about torture, guests of our CIA after extraordinary rendition.
This philosophy of "they're acting like animals, so should we" is a philosophy of cowards. No American has the right to destroy the values upon which this country was built in order to wreak cheap vengeance against an enemy, no matter how vile. We gain nothing by lowering ourselves or our standards. Keep in mind that these torture policies were crafted by men (and I use that term loosely) who, when called to serve their country, failed to do so. They are cowards, and every American who placed them in office should carry that burden with shame to the grave.
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86. Sam
Further to your comment: It's the bully boy mentality that develops in the security services.
Consider: A Polish immigrant is disoriented at Vancouver International Airport, is stuck there for 10 hours. Nobody helps him. Somebody complains.
Four big, fully armed police officers show up. Within 30 - 60 seconds they start tasering the man. They stun him 5 times in rapid succession. He dies.
The police officers then give apparently inaccurate statements to the investigators, suggesting, among other things, that this man posed a threat. He had picked up a stapler. So four big burly policemen testified they were afraid of him.
We only know the police statements were inaccurate because the entire episode was recorded on video.
And played endlessly on the national news.
The testimony of the police witnesses in respect of their own written statements given to the investigators has been embarrassing. The lawyers have shredded the police witnesses on cross-examination. For example, instead of fessing up, they sent investigators to Poland to try to dig dirt on the victim, which, of course, only made the police look even worse.
The police involved have been made to look like (to be fair, their own testimony has made them look like) a bunch of brutal, unthinking, clowns. In fact, like people that no sane person would entrust to exercise physical force, or any kind of state power, against anyone.
MAII, if you don't think that this has undermined the public confidence in that police force, or its ability to do its job, think again. Exactly the same thing applies when intelligence services discredit themselves. This is why, for example, CSIS was created in the wake of a number of famous security shenanigans, including burning down a barn in Quebec.
I do not want state power to be put into the hands of people with that kind of mentality.
At all.
Let alone in secret.
In torture chambers.
Where there isn't going to be a member of the public making a video.
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I hope that "Livinginlalaland" has read the front page headline and article in today's print edition of Lalaland's The Los Angeles Times. It has now been superseded by the reported suicide of the chief of Freddie Mac, but it shows that Cheney et al have every reason to be concerned. It might be assumed that Cheney is preparing a public defence of his own actions in the event that he is investigated. I doubt very much if President Obama would issue a pardon ahead of time, if ever.
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SaintDominick #55: "The revelations that are bound to emerge from a trial would be so damaging that we may never be able to restore our moral standing or credibility in the world. I suspect that people worldwide view this travesty of justice not only as devoid of morality and values, but as a manifestation of American principles."
Then so be it. My view is from Bush and Cheney on down, those who concocted and caried out these acts should have thought about the almost certain possibility of this when they were authorising or performing them. I'm all for putting their asses on trial and letting them reep what they have sewn!! Its just a same that their actions have to drag the rest of the nation down with them. And be honest and serious now. Do you honestly, objectivly, truely believe that our moral standing in the world would have been able to be restored after the Bush disaster even if he hadn't allowed all these abhorable acts to take place? Be honest now. You said yourself that you think that people worldwide view this travesty of justice "not only as devoid of morality and values but as a manifestation of American principles" did you not? So going on this belief one can lojicly conclude that no matter what the United States of America does, no matter what kind of president we have or what they do or say, the citizenry of the world will from now on and forever more equate "American justice" with "torture and Guontonomo Bay." Not innocent until proven guilty, fair trial, equality under the law and all that jazz. So based on this theory, Bush and CO have single handedly destroyed our international reputation beyond repair. As I said, shanty town in a vally.
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SonOfSamTyler69
"The police do not use violence against prisoners except in a few rare cases"
Ever hear of Rodney King? Abner Louima? Ever see the aftermath when the cops are chasing someone at 100 miles per hour for 50 or 100 miles? There was a good one on TV with a truckload of illegal aliens in California about a year or two ago. When the cops finally drove it off the road, the illegals scattered like cockroaches and when the cops caught up with them, they just kept beating them and beating them. It's the effect of all that adrenalin apparently, it's hard for them to control it.
G&R
"Certainly, letting the AQ leadership get away when they had the chance to destroy them was a major screw-up."
It certainly does seem that way. If it's any consolation, the leaders of al Qaeda were probably across the border in Pakistan by the time the planes hit or very shortly after. Giving them sanctuary in Pakistan has been a major blunder for the US, one President Obama has promised to correct. I wonder if he will remain true to his word. Allowing al Qaeda and the Taleban to regroup in the tribal areas of Pakistan has put Pakistan's government at grave risk. What will happen if Pakistan's nuclear arsenal falls into terrorist hands? The entire world is responsible for not taking this seriously. It's not just America's problem, it's everyone's problem.
If
"I do not want state power to be put into the hands of people with that kind of mentality."
What you want flies in the face of human nature. The very kind of people you don't want in power whether it's the police, the CIA, or politicians are the very kind who are drawn to it. And despite all kinds of psychological screening, when the heat of the moment arrives, even the most carefully filtered group will have people who put duty to their community, their country before what others perceive as the law. In their own eyes, they are the law. How lucky for us they thwarted many attacks that never came off we haven't heard about yet. In the coming months if this discussion persists, I'm sure we will.
One expert said today I think before Congress that there is no way to know if other techniques wouldn't have worked as effectively. That's the whole point. Using techniques they know will when so much is at stake. What kind of Americans would put the so called rights of people captured on a battlefield in Afghanistan over the safety and security of their fellow Americans for some obsolete notion of fair play that has nothing to do with the realities of WMDs and the 21st century. I know what kind of foreigners would. The kind who hate America and want to see it attacked again and brought down.
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patriotaxe #74: '"Any nation that confuses what is legal with what is moral or replaces justice with vengeance will destroy itself. America's support of neoconservative GOP madmen may have been its last great stumble on the world stage."
Hear hear!! Perhaps this is why an ever growing chorus of international voices are predicting, gleefully, the downfall of America. Now I know people have been doing this since the 1970s, but here we have a real reason to believe that this time its for real. Hell! Lets just step back and give China the reigns of world leader anyway! Its what they want. We've caused the world enough pain and suffering as it is. More than any nation's fair share. So lets just, as a parting gift, give the people what they want.
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I'm just waiting for the day when another country captures some Americans, locks them up without due process, waterboards them and does other unspeakable CIA-type acts, publically using the exact words and justifications that the Bush administration has.
I wonder whether the torture advocates (Cheney and Limbaugh) will then pretend (as usual), that America is an exception to every international rule and proceed to condemn that country for not abiding by international law, or whether they will recognize hypocracy for what it does.
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patriotaxe #89: '"This country has been an imperialistic nation since the Monroe Doctrine. It has waged wars without just cause in order to acquire resources it did not have and would not pay a fair price for; it has intervened in the politics and economics of other nations (Iran, Central and South America, for example), causing the deaths of thousands of innocents simply to create favorable markets for American manufacturers, American goods, and American "values." We export "democracy" when in actuality it is nothing more than capitalism. We create international tension and regional wars in order to create jobs for our Pentagon officials and markets for our weapons manufacturers."
O come on now. The Monroe doctrine? Most of the unfair, unjust, loathsome things you mention had happened in the last half century, not during or even in the immediate aftermath of president Monroe's tenyor. The Monroe doctrine came into force in 1823. We started really screwing the world over during the world wars.
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So according to this article on the Senate report on torture, the excessive tortures were to find links between Al Qaida and Iraq to justify the war, which were never found.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/66622.html
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Anyone who has worked in an executive position in any large organization knows perfectly well that there is a host of "wanna be experts" who end up writing internal memo's indicating there opposition to decisions that are made. The fact that people disagree with a conclusion doesn't mean that the decision was wrong let alone illegal. Despite all the conspiracy hoopla about the War in Iraq, 911, etc none of the conspiracy theorist have been able to piece together a credible explanation let alone substantive evidence for their far fetched theories.
A low level State Dept employee writing a memo knowing he was never involved in the loop .. tells you what? Some believe its a conspiracy to "hide stuff". From my perspective its just another employee who has too much time on his hands - is upset that he isn't in the loop - and evidence that some cutbacks maybe in order.
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I wonder how long it will be before we learn that in addition to dozens of innocent people being tortured many actually died as a result of torture and mistreatment. If that turns out to be the case and there is evidence to prove it, I doubt President Obama or anyone else will be able to keep former President Bush and his sycophants from prosecution, if nothing else because a presidential pardon would be construed as acceptance of crimes against humanity for the sake of a false sense of security and political expediency. Obviously, torture did not prevent the slaughter of hundreds of people in Madrid, London, Bali and many other places during the past few years.
Those that believe the Bush Administration kept us safe for 7 years because they embraced unprecedented methods to extract information. and because they imprisoned anyone suspected of terrorism even when there was no evidence of wrongdoing, should bear in mind that we did not suffer foreign terrorist attacks on US soil for over 2 centuries...until George W. Bush fell asleep at the wheel.
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"Hell! Lets just step back and give China the reigns of world leader anyway! Its what they want. We've caused the world enough pain and suffering as it is. More than any nation's fair share. So lets just, as a parting gift, give the people what they want."
No, let's give the world what it needs - a living example of what democracy can be when it works, a thriving example of what capitalism can be when it is not self-centered, a glowing example of what freedom of speech can be when it is based on truth and real facts rather than lies and hatred. China has worked hard to become an industrial leader, but no nation has worked harder than America to make the democratic ideals of Washington, Jefferson, Paine, Adams, Franklin and so many other true patriots work.
That is what the world needs to see again in America.
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"O come on now. The Monroe doctrine? Most of the unfair, unjust, loathsome things you mention had happened in the last half century, not during or even in the immediate aftermath of president Monroe's tenyor. The Monroe doctrine came into force in 1823. We started really screwing the world over during the world wars."
Incorrect. The Spanish-American War and the Mexican-American war were both wars of US imperialism waged without just cause, supported by US newspapers hungry for news and eager to exploit the jingoism running rampant in America in order to build newspaper distribution. It was imperialistic muscle-flexing driven by the self-entitlement of the Doctrine.
And even had your observation been correct, it was the Monroe Doctrine that made everything that came to pass afterwards possible. Almost out of American soil on which to expand, we looked hungrily at Mexico, Central and South America. Yes, our involvement in the politics of so-called "banana republics" is fairly recent, and our role in the overthrow of a legitimate, democratic government in Iran dates back only to Eisenhower, but it was the Doctrine that set the course for an imperialistic nation.
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"Anyone who has worked in an executive position in any large organization knows perfectly well that there is a host of "wanna be experts" who end up writing internal memo's indicating there opposition to decisions that are made."
Since you offer no proof that you have ever worked in an executive position in any large organization, it is impossible to find credibility in your opening statement.
"The fact that people disagree with a conclusion doesn't mean that the decision was wrong let alone illegal."
No, the fact that the Bush administration deliberately sought out and destroyed copies of the memo indicates that the decision was both wrong and illegal. Much like the hundreds of illegally destroyed White House emails that cover the time period of both the Valerie Plame and the dismissed U.S. District Attorneys incidents.
Anyone who has worked in an executive position in any large organization knows perfectly well that you don't destroy evidence that supports your case, only evidence that would put you in jail.
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#97
Marcus,
Again you prove my point because you don't bother to read, or think, or both. Compared to the number of arrests each day, those incidents were a tiny percentage. The miscreants were caught and punished.
Did the beatings stop illegal immigration? Car chases? Were they a deterrent?
Of course not. Only a sad little person with an inferiority complex and dreams of being tough would find such behavior acceptable. Torture more so.
Bored Sam
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#29. jon112uk wrote: "Ten minutes on the internet will find you dozens of the AQ hack off the head of a conscious, tied and struggling prisoner videos."
What fascinating life you must lead, trawling the 'net for snuff videos. I wonder what other hobbies you have? IF there are so many instances, why not post a few links to prove what you say?
"For me the $64K question is why our media devote so much to this issue"
Since you are British and apparently still living in the UK, how can you possibly judge what our American media is reporting. I think you should stick to commenting on milk floats.
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ref#103
None of what happened to the poor terrorists was tortured,why with all the true human rights violations why is there so much focus n this.
The administration needs to stop being petty. Bush did the right thing authorizing harsh interogation it saved many lives.
We need to stop being so concerned with the ACLU and Amnesty approval. If we can take out the terrorirst or the enabelers in Iran we should.
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There are times when I am proud to be an American and there are times when I am outright ashamed to be an American. Don't get me wrong. I love my country, but I can not in good conscience condone what officials in the Bush-Cheney administration did during their eight years in office. I am sickened to my stomach to have to read the accounts of what has gone on in Gitmo. No matter what administration officials say their can be no excuse for this. Those who are guilty should be prosecuted. I'm sorry but we can not allow justice to be averted.
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To#185 Gunsandreligion
I will disagree with the terms "failed states" or even "failed nations." Only governments have "failed" for various reasons. Their people have not failed. The people had hope that if they worked hard and did their best they would have better lives. Their 'fault' was trusting any government to have a care for the best interests of the people being governed.
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ref #110 If you a proud american you should cherish presumed innocent.
You and other have already convicted President Bush without a trial.
Which is why Senator Leahy's truth commission is not to be trusted
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107 Go Sam.
the riots that resulted from the police beating Rodney were proof in themselves that the tactic does not prevent crime.
Rather encourages it. but someone would have to be able to think to get that point. not much but still too much for Franco over there in the trailer park.
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patriotaxe #104: '"No, let's give the world what it needs - a living example of what democracy can be when it works, a thriving example of what capitalism can be when it is not self-centered, a glowing example of what freedom of speech can be when it is based on truth and real facts rather than lies and hatred."
O how I wish we could!! And on paper it sounds so good! But I'm afraid, like our preamble, that these noble desires and asparations are merely pipe dreams. I, and I'm sure at least one or two other Americans, have lost faith in our government (even with Obama at the helm; he has shown himself to be just another selfish and more interested in protecting his own politicion like all the rest,) system of checks and ballances, congress, judges, and the inate ability of every citizen of this country to be respectful, self-restrained and selfless. George Walker Bush is the epidamy of the worst of what humanity can do (aside from Adulf Hitler,) and I'm sorry, but if we are going to continueously go down this slippery slope with no way of turning back, I'd rather us do it while impacting as few people around the world as possible. Its not fair to them. They should not have to suffer at the expense of our stupidity.
But even if there was sufficiant resolve to continue sifting through those "conceivable alternitives," there are now a few rode blocks in the way preventing us from getting to a few of them. With capitalism, the G20 leaders signed a treaty in London this month pledging to give not only more interveaning power to international financial institutions such as the International Monitary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank, but developing countries (China, India etc) and under developed countries are now being given a full vote in the proceidings of those institutions, and come 2011, the United States, along with our western allies, will forfit our voting right within the organisations altogether. So in short, the IMF and World Bank can now be lead by anyone from any country, and will in the future have the power to mettle in the financial affairs of any sovern nation if they feel that said nation's financial actions are risky or unhelthy. Now I'm no fan of unbridaled capitalism!! But this doesn't sound like a very good plan either.
And regarding freedom of speach, that is if any future president (if we still have them) will still allow it, don't fool yourself, freedom of speach will not bring wrongdoers to justice (especially in the government!) As Obama is showing us now, if there is a slightest chance that revelations of wrongdoing of someone in a position of power is in any way badly reflected upon them, an inquirey will not happen, or if it does it will be weack and certainly noone accused of wrongdoing will be tried and/or prosicuted. In other words, freedom of speach will be manipulated to suit the persons in power's motives, ends and most importantly, their images, not the cause of justice.
China, while a true totalitarian dictatorship, is somewhat better than us, simply for the fact that they are not hypocritical. They shoot people dead that they don't like without a fair trial and make no bones about it. So either we do what we say, or withdraw from the world.
And what makes you so certain that the world even wants, much less "needs" us to continue to make a vane attempt at living up to our founding ideals anyway? I'm serious. You seem so sure. The only message I get from the world is "yanky go home."
Thank You
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Now that those opposed to the neo CON way are allowed to breath a little easier , they can start to come out without having to fear the state as well as the crazies. those same crazies that stirred up all the other moderate crazies into what was a pretty scary time , and got them to stir the crazies in power to more crazies,just cause they could. . still is as the piece by Matt points out they now are going to 11 on the crazy scale. fundamentalist crazies
And they are allowed to buy guns? Sorry that's silly.Many more people will be coming out when the fear leaves them. the press will finally be able to do some checking on all that secrecy.
If they weren't politicians,they would be called crazy. but politicians are never crazy.
(economy was coming down anyway Cheers those before ,with the exception of carter he was great. is great.including ship it over Bill)
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The Geneva Convention, mentioned by many, is only applicable to solders, in uniform, who are members of a recognized Army as declared by a State government. It was never meant to apply, nor does it apply to spies, terrorists, those conducting internal civil actions or groups of terrorists. The Yanks have a history of mistakenly attempting to apply the Geneva Convention in situations where it is not applicable, as they have done in other conflicts, in the hopes that the other side would treat their recognized soldiers under the convention, which most did not.
I do wonder why the level of indignant outrage over sleep deprivation, loud rock music, and what was called in the 18th century dunking; yet I hear and have heard nothing about the situation in other countries, some who sit on the UN Human Rights Commission, who regularly and admittedly decapitate, gang rape, electro-shock, and remove limbs non surgically. Perhaps my memory is slipping, but I can't seem to remember any marches in London and media frenzy when we all knew Saddam was decapitating, gang raping and cutting off arms and legs. Not a peep was heard, not even from a mouse.
The hypocrisy from other countries on this subject is rampant, and the furor among the Yanks seems far more politically motivated than anything else. Of course there were dissenting opinions, but any person, even Presidents and PMs at some point in time listens to as many opinions as feasible and eventually has to make a decision. And then those opinions that went against the decision fall by the wayside. And those who created the ignored opinions usually feel personally slighted and often react accordingly, when and if the opportunity presents itself.
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19. Richard_SM,
You really believe that the West is responsible for Islamic terror? In fact Islam cannot and will not live and let live when it comes to infidels and their religion. Study up on the Caliphate. Your comment reads like an Al Qaeda propaganda manual.
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Well, Bush era memos continue to be declassified early and their contents continue to be troubling, but I am also troubled by the fact that Obama did not stand by his earlier decision-this would have ended the debate over the fate of Bush officials, allowed Obama to move on with his own agenda, and he still would have been praised. But, either by design or by mistake, Obama has allowed the issue to fester by punting the decision to the Justice Dept. Now President Obama will be asked about impending or rumored prosecutions for the rest of this term unless the Justice Dept. makes a quick decision because every new released memo over the course of Obama's term in office will incite new questions from the press and grumbles from the right. Politically, Obama comes out looking good compared to Bush in the end on this, no matter what, but he risks the very real danger of being unable to talk about and do much else if he continues down the path he is on. I still think Gerald Ford had the right idea.
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In Ref. to 103:
I do not think we should forget or downplay the significance of the 1993 terrorist attack on the World Trade Center in New York, that terrible event was an omen of far worse things to come.
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It is not only the CIA that uses torture; the ATF, under President Clinton, uses it on American citizens. During the Waco Texas standoff the ATF played the sounds of rabbits being killed, which sounds like a baby crying, at night. This is a form of sleep depuration which is considered torture.
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Today British authorities released 12 people they had been holding on "compelling evidence" that they were about to commit some unspecified terrorist act of bombing in the UK.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8012838.stm
All but one who was a British citizen face deportation back to Pakistan where they came from because they are viewed as "security risks." There wasn't sufficient evidence found to prosecute or even continue to detain them. They had outsmarted the British authorities which isn't saying a whole lot. Had they been waterboarded, not only would all of the details of their plot have been exposed but those behind them who trained them, financed them, assigned them their mission would have been identified and might have been captured too. Instead everyone goes free. When the attack finally comes after their replacements execute the plot successfully or these people return under aliases or by other means, the British population will know that they have made a terrible mistake. I feel people by and large get what they deserve in life and when that terrible day comes, I for one will have no sympathy for the victims. I will simply say I told you so. Dumb country, dumb people, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb. That's why the dodo birds became extinct too. Looks like dumbness is contagious. Some of it has rubbed off on some Americans who now have ice water in their veins instead of red blood. Those people are trying to turn American into a nation of chicken-hearts. Disgusting.
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97. MAII
Agree with the point on the "major screw up". US Forces put somebody on the Afghan border in a once in a lifetime arbitrage position as a gate-keeper/pay toll extractor. You wonder just how much bin Laden had to pay our local "Allies" to be led across unscathed.
On the other point, yes, bullies, thugs, sadists and the like are drawn to that work. They wallow in it. It feeds their psychoses.
Which is precisely why the state has to be hyper vigilant about its own conduct.
The point you have missed rather is that for every one of these "successes" we add a hundred, or a thousand, or perhaps ten thousand, recruits to the terrorist cause. The Germans obliterated Lidice. Ouradour sur Marne. Guernica. Countless towns and villages in the Steppes. And all it did was harden the determination of others to resist them. Think of the treatment that the English security forces meted out to the Irish rebels in the Irish civil war / war of independence. In the end, did England gain from these things? Hardly.
Torturing captives, no matter how apparently "valuable" they are, merely undermines our own society, and acts as a recruiting tool for our enemies.
Defeating these people takes intelligence and patience. That is tough for a society that eschews education and has been raised on the instant gratification and simplistic solutions of TV.
Consider, for example, all the money and kit that has gone into Afghanistan. Yet in one brilliant stroke the Taliban have bolstered their own recruiting, and impaled the desire of the voting public of western countries to pay for, and send men to fight, the current war: they bamboozled the governement of Afghanistan into passing a law allowing marital rape, and restricting the rights of women to those of chattels.
Didn't cost them a single man. Didn't require a single bullet, RPG, roadside bomb, or airstrike. And we are going to spend more blood and treasure in support of a governement that does that? A master stroke. The general who is truly successful defeats his opponent's will to fight, without fighting. Utterly brilliant.
Did you ever see "Das Leben von Andern"? Not a bad film. You might enjoy it.
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Qin Guang Wang (58), Keep it coming!
#62,
- "For God sake these people are wicked terrors who are ready to destroy innocent lives..... My view is personal but terrorists should be taught hard lessons."
Guilty or not!!!Patriot Axe (74),
- "Any nation that confuses what is legal with what is moral or replaces justice with vengeance will destroy itself. America's support of neoconservative GOP madmen may have been its last great stumble on the world stage."
Indeed. Well said.Faeyth (80),
- "The patriot act was unconstitutional."
Still is, and downright Dangerous 89 & 93 are excellent. 104,5,6 You're on a roll!BEL (118),
- "I am also troubled by the fact that Obama did not stand by his earlier decision-this would have ended the debate over the fate of Bush officials,"
Obama's original statement was that operatives (peons, underlings) need not fear prosecution, not that those who authorized the travesties would be immune...Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
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85. At 6:30pm on 22 Apr 2009, gunsandreligion wrote:
"What we have to fear is the disintegration of nation-states under cultural. economic, and environmental stress into "failed states,"
Now. Let me think. What other nation-state is (if I read some posters here accurately) currently suffering the same stresses?
And is heavily armed, makes a fetish of its military power, where sections of its population advocate vigilantism and the violent overthrow of government, has lethally polluted a large part of its environment and recently underwent serious and near-catastrophic financial destabilsation?
(It somehow gets missed out of the usual three examples. Can't think why.)
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Re 112
I am not trying to convict Mr. Bush or Mr. Cheney with out a fair trial, what I am saying is that the evidence seems to be overwhelming at this point. I am not a lawyer, but If I were the attorney for either Carl Rove or Dick Cheney I would advise them to stop giving interviews. What they say on TV can and will be used against them should they be brought to trial. This is not a political crusade this is a cry for Justice.
I think we can give them a fair trial. Having said that, should these people be convicted they should not be allowed to serve at a club fed style minimum security prison. If these people are convicted they should be sent to a SuperMax where the Criminal Justice System sends the worst of the worst.
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121. At 00:16am on 23 Apr 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Today British authorities released 12 people they had been holding on "compelling evidence" that they were about to commit some unspecified terrorist act of bombing in the UK.
The 'evidence', however, is not, obviously, 'compelling' enough to risk trying to convince a jury during a fair trial, something which at least some of us still believe in. From the same report:
"The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) decided there was insufficient evidence to press charges - or to convince magistrates to allow police to hold the men any longer."
And I for one -- and I am not alone -- do not agree with the use of deportation as a form of punishment without trial.
As for your sympathy -- for compassion and humanity you have none, obviously, since you do nothing but show your love of violence, mistreatment and bloodshed here -- I think we can manage without it, thank you.
Many people in this country have faced this threat over many years, many have been victims. (Me included, as it happens, though only peripherally: the explosion only made me deaf for a couple of days. And very nervous of bangers around Bonfire Night.)
But neither I nor many others will ever agree to the immorality of torture and the misuse of law that you so deplorably advocate.
This will be my only response to you here.
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123 Hesiodos:
How in the world did you manage to make sectional breaks marked by a grey line in your post? Oh, and your correction of Obama's statement does not comfort me; the President is either wasting valuable agenda setting time with this or distracting us from what he is doing with what his predecessors did.
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I find it ridiculous that this should be carried out publicly. After all ALL countries practice one form of torture or another. My sister was held and interrogated without a lawyer by UK police for 5.5 hrs while her 3 yr old son was questioned for the same length of time without food or water or his mother (my sister) being present. All b/c the police suspected he was not her child. Simple DNA test could have solved it! NO ONE is investigating it and no British lawyer will take up a law suit! So whats the big deal about trying to get info from an obvious terrorist??
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128 -
This may seem very odd, but I really have a hard time believing that the police of any country would spend five hours questioning a three-year-old. It's just too darned silly. And I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the results of a DNA test are achieved instantaneously. So that would not have solved anything. Perhaps the reason no lawyer will touch the case is that it has no merit?
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#128
Umm Dude,
A DNA test is not scratch and sniff.
Get counselling.
Concerned Sam
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#121
Marcus,
Alternatively, your vicious plot to attack our dear Michelle and blow up the Pope remain uncovered because we have not tied you up in a cardboard box with 3 scorpions then had you assaulted with a plastic cucumber by the butch looking girl on American gladiators.
You need to be questioned.
Citizen Sam
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128, all4USA.
"My sister was held and interrogated without a lawyer by UK police for 5.5 hrs while her 3 yr old son was questioned for the same length of time without food or water or his mother (my sister) being present. All b/c the police suspected he was not her child."
The UK police stopped me once for the same reason (my last name was different from that of my children). I was only detained for a few minutes, probably because my kids were laughing histerically and teased the hell out of everybody, including me. I would have gone wild if we were separated for five and a half hours. Kafka?
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If America lets its guard down the way some Americans and most Europeans would have it do, then the next terrorist attack on the US especially if it is a WMD attack could spell the end of constitutional law in the US. The Constitution may be a victim but the Republic will survive. In such an event, the litany of vicious lies most Europeans and some Americans have told about the US and its government will pale in comparison to the reality that will emerge in the aftermath. If a nuclear Iran or a nuclear Pakistan doesn't frighten you, then a nuclear America run as a military dictatorship and a true rogue state that would shoot first and ask question later if at all at any and all suspected threats should terrify you as no one on this earth would be safe from it. Americans have a simple but stark choice to make. Face the reality that they are in a war (not a police action) for their survival and temporarily suspend some of their freedoms and Constitutional protections now or face losing all of them permanently later on. Once it happens, all the tears won't put it back the way it was.
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"Americans have a simple but stark choice to make. Face the reality that they are in a war (not a police action) for their survival and temporarily suspend some of their freedoms and Constitutional protections now or face losing all of them permanently later on. Once it happens, all the tears won't put it back the way it was."
The words of a scared shepherd, trying to lead ignorant sheep.
Speak for yourself, Marcus, but never assume that all Americans feel as frightened as you do.
"... temporarily suspend some of their freedoms and constitutional protections now or ..."
Perhaps the rest of your countrymen, the majority, at least, would rather die as free men and women, with their rights intact. Perhaps they honor those who have already fought and died for those same freedoms by refusing to lay them down on the advice of frightened fools.
You may give away every right you inherited as an American, Marcus, but if you try to give away mine I will treat you as any domestic terrorist.
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In the ecology of discussion forums, it is normal to expect a mix of
sensible/engaging/wise/unrelated/funny/weird/mad posts.
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patriotaxe;
"but if you try to give away mine I will treat you as any domestic terrorist."
You already have. Been through a security check at an airport recently?
BTW, I was only a few miles from the WTC on 9-11 and was there many times. I used to live only about a mile or two away. Americans have good reason to be scared, they are under attack by an implacable enemy who could strike at any time and is determined to destroy the entire country. Don't take my word for it, they say it themselves unabashedly. Europeans are under threat too but refuse to see it. They think they will be able to placate the terrorists the way they always placate their enemies when faced with danger, surrender. The French are experts at it. Unlike most Europeans though, at least some Americans have the will and the guts to fight back. That's one reason Europeans sicken me. I wouldn't shed one more drop of American blood to save Europe. I say America should pull out of NATO and leave Europe to its fate.
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So, _marko, how are we doing in this particular biome?
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To patriotaxe #137:
If I'm qualified to judge, it's looking good to me and keeping me engaged and entertained.
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Well, _marko, you have an objective perspective so your observations have certain value. And if you're having a good time watching the rest of us trying to kill each other with prose, well, that's a bonus, right?
As for me, I fancy a cold bottle of Leinenkugel before retiring so I'm off to the fridge, and then to bed. Make sure Marcus doesn't give away my freedoms while I'm asleep, OK?
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Why is Dick Cheney still talking or relevant? I guess he is not, maybe he is relevant to Fox News. Basically, as a nation; we need to try to not be hypocrites. We either torture or we don't. We cannot say we don't torture and then do it anyway.(I don't believe in torture but the point is, if we are so busy telling every other country what to do, we should listen to our own advise). Everyone knew that the Bush admin was up to no good, now here's solid proof. So shut up Sean Hannity.
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No, waterboarding is always wrong. Unless you like the Spanish Inquisition. The towel is on your face so you can't close your mouth.
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116. PortoBelloDutch,
Agreed. And I can imagine the hysterial condemnation that would have been directed at the US without pause had they raped and tortured to death a female journalist accused of spying as the Iranians did to Iranian-Canadian photojournalist Zahra Kazemi:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/kazemi/
Yet the tunnel-visioned America-bashers on the left have nothing to say about the Iranian regime, except to paint it in glowing colours and deny its atrocities against its own people.
103. saintDominick wrote:
we did not suffer foreign terrorist attacks on US soil for over 2 centuries...until George W. Bush fell asleep at the wheel.
Where were you during the first WTC attack? You know, the bomb in the basement that killed and injured many Americans?
And if American Embassies can be regarded as American soil the terror attacks in Kenyan and Tanzania also preceded George W. Bush.
You'll blame Bush for anything.
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#84 canadacold,
My national paper and CNN (last night) further enlightened me.
The USA executed Japanese who had used waterboarding on US prisoners.
I saw that to. Unfortunately, CNN left out the difference between the two. The Japanese beat their prisoners while being waterboarded, used electrical shocks while prisoners were waterboarded, forced prisoners to talk while being waterboarded until their stomachs distended from the intake of water; then repeatedly stomped and punched their prisoners in the belly. This torture led to physical damage and death in many cases. Hence the executions. The three terrorists were only subjected to waterboarding, were not physicaly damaged, and did not die.
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Justin Webb | 22:18 UK time, Tuesday, 21 April 2009
"Livinginlalaland hits it on the head for me: waterboarding is always wrong except when it might not be."
It is entirely justified when you know beyond doubt that the person has the required information.
However since we are humjan beings and not gods and cannot read people's minds the fact remains you may continuosly torture someone who has nothing to say.
What then. How do you make it up to them?
And reflect on this Justin, if information is the be all and end all - then torturing the family of the suspect must also be allowed if it will get him to crack.
There is no end to this once you go down this route until you end up with a sistuation where "suspects" are tirtured as a matter of course like we see in Zimbabwe or Libya
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142. At 09:36am on 23 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
116. PortoBelloDutch,
Agreed. And I can imagine the hysterial condemnation that would have been directed at the US without pause had they raped and tortured to death a female journalist accused of spying as the Iranians did to Iranian-Canadian photojournalist Zahra Kazemi:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/kazemi/
Yet the tunnel-visioned America-bashers on the left have nothing to say about the Iranian regime, except to paint it in glowing colours and deny its atrocities against its own people."
But the Iranian regime is not invading other countries is it genius?
It is not dropping bombs on innocent families (21 wiped out in one case) and then saying such wholsesale slaughter is "unfortunate".
ANd spare us you hyocritical tears. We all know how tender you feel towards the Iranian "people".
The US owes Iran a massive apology (Albright gave it a small one) and reparations.
"103. saintDominick wrote:
we did not suffer foreign terrorist attacks on US soil for over 2 centuries...until George W. Bush fell asleep at the wheel.
Where were you during the first WTC attack? You know, the bomb in the basement that killed and injured many Americans?
And if American Embassies can be regarded as American soil the terror attacks in Kenyan and Tanzania also preceded George W. Bush.
You'll blame Bush for anything."
American embassies are not American soil, end of story.
Bush was partially responsible for 9/11 as was the blithering incompetence of the Amercian security services.
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BEL (127)
See here
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142
Torture is never Jusitified. Haven't you listened/ All torture succeeds in doing is striking fear in the prisoner. It doesnot provide any useful information at all. In fact, people who are subject to torture will pretty much confess to anything simply to get the torture to stop. Now have no access to the transcripts from the interogations but I am pretty certain that after a long session of torture, you could these suspect to confess to Shooting JFK, kidnapping the Linberg Baby, and Being Jack the Ripper. None of these aformentioned crimes could any of these suspect possibly have committed. In fact, it is not out of the realm for suspect to confess to having Shot JR EWing, a fictional Character from the TV Soap Opera DAllas.
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143. At 09:56am on 23 Apr 2009, rodidog wrote:
#84 canadacold,
My national paper and CNN (last night) further enlightened me.
The USA executed Japanese who had used waterboarding on US prisoners.
I saw that to. Unfortunately, CNN left out the difference between the two. The Japanese beat their prisoners while being waterboarded, used electrical shocks while prisoners were waterboarded, forced prisoners to talk while being waterboarded until their stomachs distended from the intake of water; then repeatedly stomped and punched their prisoners in the belly. This torture led to physical damage and death in many cases. Hence the executions. The three terrorists were only subjected to waterboarding, were not physicaly damaged, and did not die. "
Oh right, big difference.
Not physcally dmaged? Waterboarded 186 times. Not physically damaged. Are you crazy? Just tying the man down for that number of times will damage him.
These victims have been severely physically damaged make no mistake. Denying a person sleep systematically will badly damage them.
The US executed the japanese for torturing their prisoners. Now it admits the Japanese were doing the right thing, even if they did it incorrectly.
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145. Simon21,
Are you ever going to take my advice and make your comments more readable? No wonder so few people ever debate with you.
I did manage to catch your comment about Iran never invading anyone. True, but like the cowards they are they just wage terrorist war against Israeli civilians using Hezbollah, Hamas and Islamic Jihad to do their dirty work.
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#148
Who is to say the mental damage inflicted is not as awful as the physical? That is my position against waterboarding. It may not leave physical scars, but after 183 times surely there will be a whole load of mental ones.
#145
You are correct about embassies not enjoying extraterritorial status - a common misconception.
#149
Cos it's not like America gave Israel weapons, vehicles and technology which were used to kill civilians and militants alike in Gaza?
Hypocritical.
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I will never sanction my own state using torture (as commonly defined).
To my mind it is an ethical decision in that I do not wish people to be tortured in my name whether they are innocent or guilty, and a practical decision in that torture may get limited bits of useful information over the short term but blurring the behaviour of states and terrorists leads, in the long term, to more terrorist activity.
The best recruitment posters al qaeda ever had were the abu ghraib photos.
Of course, if one of my loved ones was killed in a terrorist attack I would shout for every terrorist to be tortured and killed. But I would not want to live in a culture where state policy is set in extremis. Only an ethical, fair and compassionate state will endure.
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149. At 11:18am on 23 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
145. Simon21,
Are you ever going to take my advice and make your comments more readable? No wonder so few people ever debate with you.
When you start debating please let everyone know. SO far all we get are indefensible far right predictable prejudices.
Your expressed concern for the welfare of the Iranian people was hilarious.
I note you concede this point.
"I did manage to catch your comment about Iran never invading anyone. True,"
Yes it is isn't it. A rather big point. Iran has made no military claims on another's territory for centuries. A remarkable record.
"but like the cowards they are they just wage terrorist war against Israeli civilians using Hezbollah, Hamas and Islamic Jihad to do their dirty work"
You did not mention the SS, the NKVD, the OhKrana or the KKK. Hamas shamas, no family has been entirely wiped out for three generations due to the Iranian army.
They also do not shoot schoolchildren in the back (very brave one wonders if the IDF officer got a medal), peace activists and passers by.
They do not launch "pogroms" to support their colonists
And they do not call the butchery of babies, women and old men "unfortunate". A disgusting term used by the IDF and one which might be applied to a failed mortgage application, not the brutal annihlation of a whole family.
The use of such language tells you all you need to know about this "army".
If you can contest any of this let's see your evidence.
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The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Barny Franks, Christopher Dodd, and their friends wanted everyone in America no matter how poor to be able to own their own home. They made it possible for people who couldn't possibly pay them back to get home loans anyway to buy them. Result, the word's financial system is bankrupt and everyone in the world is far worse off for it.
Israelis were being massacred like lambs to the slaughter by Palestinian terrorists. They wanted to resolve their differences by negotiating with them, reasoning with them. They offered every possible concession in late 2000/early 2001. The result, it wasn't enough the Palestinians wanted the right of return of 5 million refugees that would have destroyed Israel. Arafat walked out of the talks, the suicide bombings and rocket attack escalted and didn't abate unilt Israel built a wall and started fighting back turning Palestine from an impovrished land to a bombed out hulk of a junkyard. Israel still refuses to recognize it has not eliminated its enemy, only delivered it a temporary setback and there will be far more trouble to come.
The US faced with mortal threats from Iran, North Korea, al Qaeda, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and possibly Iraq in 2002 played some perverted game of respecting the absurd notion of international law including respecting sovereignty of these countries only temporarily excluding Iraq and Afghanistan trying to negotiate with them on rational terms and using torture to extract plans for deadly plots in a highly restricted and limited manner. The result, the US is in even far greater danger now than ever as the nexus of nuclear weapons and terrorists President Bush warned about is materializing. If the worst happens, the response very well could be earth shattering.
Meanwhile the world's gremlins including most of the governments of Europe sit on the sidelines jeering America's government hoping for the worst while they hypocritically chant their tiresome morality. They just don't seem to understand the inevitable consequences for themselves. Like Barney Franks, Christopher Dodd, and the rest of us, they will learn the hard way. But then the Greeks told us that thousands of years ago. It's a lesson they learned like everyone else only we haven't listened.
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Re 151
That comment about not wanting to live live in a society where there are extremes is pretty apt. For a long time, I have seriously questioned whether or not the US has actually been winning the War on Terror. Now I know that we are losing the War on Terror. The purpose of terrorism is to get people to live in fear and have governments react in fear. By that standard, The United States of America has lost the War on Terror. When Bush started approving torture, we started losing. When Bush started approving warrentless wiretapping, we started losing. When Bush started keeping prisoners with out so much as a writ of habeaus corpus, we sarted losing the War on Terrorism. Cheney and Bush would argue that their policies have "kept America safe", but in reality, Al-Quieda hasn't had to make anotber attack on the United States. The reality is that the Bush Administration has done a good enough job of spreading fear and destroying our liberties that Al-Quieda hasn't had to make an attack. All they had to do was make a threat and The Administration would respond by destroying the Constitution. That is not victory over terrorism That is a victory for terrorism.
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153. At 12:25pm on 23 Apr 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Look Marcus do try to learn something before posting. Otherwise you simply look ridiculous as I will easily demonstrate
1. "
Israelis were being massacred like lambs to the slaughter by Palestinian terrorists. They wanted to resolve their differences by negotiating with them, reasoning with them. They offered every possible concession in late 2000/early 2001."]
Every possible concession? COuld you tell us what this means?
Otherwise it is gibberish.
" The result, it wasn't enough the Palestinians wanted the right of return of 5 million refugees that would have destroyed Israel.
Sorry so you are saying the Israelis offered every concession except the human rights of 5 millio0n people.
Contradicted yourself.
What do you Marcus suggest happen to these five million.
Do you advocate a "final solution"
2)" Arafat walked out of the talks, the suicide bombings and rocket attack escalted and didn't abate unilt Israel built a wall and started fighting back turning Palestine from an impovrished land to a bombed out hulk of a junkyard."
And you think this is justified? This is your point? Kill?
3) " Israel still refuses to recognize it has not eliminated its enemy, only delivered it a temporary setback and there will be far more trouble to come."
Yes this was what Hitler said about the failure to deal with the "jewish question".
4)"The US faced with mortal threats from Iran, North Korea, al Qaeda, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and possibly Iraq in 2002 "
Mortal threats? from Afghanistan, from Iraq? Wow is the US so feeble? What about the real and terrible danger from Ecuador?
5) "Meanwhile the world's gremlins including most of the governments of Europe sit on the sidelines jeering America's government hoping for the worst while they hypocritically chant their tiresome morality"
Yes mopst of the world does think the US has made a fool of itself over the last few years, coming across as terrified and loathing its own institutions.
Allowing systemetaic torture, something its own founding fathers would have opposed. Can you imagine Jefferson listening to someone telling him waterboarding, shackling etc are not forms of torture?
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#155
Unless your secretly Dr.Doolittle, I doubt you can communicate effectively with that swine......
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# 141 smileytm303 wrote:
"No, waterboarding is always wrong. Unless you like the Spanish Inquisition."
Sorry to introduce a note of frivolity to a serious subject, but of all the analogies I expected to be introduced here -
I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition......
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156. At 1:04pm on 23 Apr 2009, SaintOne wrote:
#155
Unless your secretly Dr.Doolittle, I doubt you can communicate effectively with that swine......"
No but it is fun watching him tie hmself in knots. I particularly like the bit about US being in mortal danger from Afghanistan.
I wonder if Haiti, Fiji and Sharjah should also be included.
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NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!!!!!
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112. MagicKirin wrote:
"ref #110 If you a proud american you should cherish presumed innocent.
You and other have already convicted President Bush without a trial."
Oh Magic, can you not see the irony in your defense of Bush..... the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay and Abu Graib didn't have a trial either.
Sauce. Goose. Gander.
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159 - Saint.
I'll never talk. Never I say ..... oh no..... no ..... NOT THE CUSHIONS!!!!
AAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
If President Bush made one mistake in the War on Terror and in Iraq, it was failing to get a Declaration of War from Congress. Then all of this blather would be moot. The US has not declared war since Japan attacked Pearl Harbor and its lack of resolve to fight to win the wars it has engaged in after WWII has resulted in unsatisfactory results every single time with the possible exceptions of Kosovo and Granada although suborning the military decisions of what to target in Kosovo to all of the NATO governments was a truly bad idea. Had the US fought WWII with the same lack of resolve to win the way it has fought every war since, the Axis would have won. The US tries to fight its wars on the cheap now, pretending it can have both guns and butter without sacrifice. It hs become more preoccupied with keeping its own casualty count down and its public image around the world good than in vanquishing the enemy. After 9-11, President Bush told Americans to go back to shopping, conduct business as usual. Instead of a tax hike to pay for the war in Iraq, he obtained a tax cut from Congress for his wealthy friends.
It's a sad day for America when it has Europeans as military allies. The one thing America can depend on when it comes to Europe is that it can't depend on Europe for anything...except ranting criticism of whatever it does or doesn't do. It's time for America to kiss those losers off and forget about them and their endless idiotic dribble and diatribes. America's destiny is not Europe's destiny and trying to tie them together only holds America back. Europe is a lead anchor on America's soaring spirit. That goes for Britain too.
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163. At 3:21pm on 23 Apr 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"It's a sad day for America when it has Europeans as military allies. The one thing America can depend on when it comes to Europe is that it can't depend on Europe for anything...except ranting criticism of whatever it does or doesn't do. It's time for America to kiss those losers off and forget about them and their endless idiotic dribble and diatribes. America's destiny is not Europe's destiny and trying to tie them together only holds America back. Europe is a lead anchor on America's soaring spirit. That goes for Britain too."
Yeh yeh we all know you don't like Europe, what a surprise.
Change the record Marcus, no one is intrested in your predictable ranting. And no one listens going by results. Haven't heard Nato etc is being abolished
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Simple Simon
"1. "
Israelis were being massacred like lambs to the slaughter by Palestinian terrorists. They wanted to resolve their differences by negotiating with them, reasoning with them. They offered every possible concession in late 2000/early 2001."]
Every possible concession? COuld you tell us what this means?
Otherwise it is gibberish."
They were offered 97% of the land they requested, control of much of Jerusalem. The world was astonished at the concessions Ehud Barach offered. It wasn't until he agreed to all these demands that Arafat brought up the refugees. Then he walked out. In an interview on American television years later, Barach was asked why he agreed to all of Arafat's demands. Barach answered; because he knew Arafat wouldn't accept them.
"" The result, it wasn't enough the Palestinians wanted the right of return of 5 million refugees that would have destroyed Israel.
Sorry so you are saying the Israelis offered every concession except the human rights of 5 millio0n people.
Contradicted yourself."
No I didn't. That was not one of the original demands when the peace talks Clinton arranged in the closing days of his administration were convened. That demand came up after all of the other terms were agreed to and Clinton though he'd had a deal.
"What do you Marcus suggest happen to these five million.
Do you advocate a "final solution""
What happened to millions of refugees who fled Europe over the centuries to save their lives? They settled elsewhere. That's what the Palestinian refugees should do. You'd have Israel commit demographic suicide. You'd like to see Israel destroyed, if not one way then another. It won't happen. The day Israel dies, so will the rest of us including you and me. They have hundreds of hydrogen bombs and there is no reason to suppose they won't use them if a fatal solution is imposed on them. You make it easy for me to hate Europeans. Your kind confirm the reasons for my worst prejudices against them.
"2)" Arafat walked out of the talks, the suicide bombings and rocket attack escalted and didn't abate unilt Israel built a wall and started fighting back turning Palestine from an impovrished land to a bombed out hulk of a junkyard."
And you think this is justified? This is your point? Kill?"
Absolutely justified. They have as their number one obligation protecting their own people. What is not justified is that they waited as long as they did and they didn't do enough. Was the RAF's bombing of Dresden justified? Kill, kill, kill innocent German citizens in their homes? Euroblather, no end of it. That's all Europe knows how to do, talk.
"3) " Israel still refuses to recognize it has not eliminated its enemy, only delivered it a temporary setback and there will be far more trouble to come."
Yes this was what Hitler said about the failure to deal with the "jewish question"."
I never heard the Jews say they wanted to wipe all Arabs off the map although given their recent history, it would hardly suprise me if that thought hasn't occurred to more than one Jew.
"4)"The US faced with mortal threats from Iran, North Korea, al Qaeda, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and possibly Iraq in 2002 "
Mortal threats? from Afghanistan, from Iraq? Wow is the US so feeble? What about the real and terrible danger from Ecuador?"
On 9-11 it was 4 airplanes. What will happen if its nuclear weapons developed by Pakistan, Iran, North Korea or stolen from Russia next time? This is what al Qaeda says it wants to do, it just lacks the means at the moment. Iran's government said it wants a world without America and appears to be trying to develop long range missiles and nuclear weapons. Now what do suppose the significance of that is?
"5) "Meanwhile the world's gremlins including most of the governments of Europe sit on the sidelines jeering America's government hoping for the worst while they hypocritically chant their tiresome morality"
Yes mopst of the world does think the US has made a fool of itself over the last few years, coming across as terrified and loathing its own institutions."
That is why America should cut itself off from them. We don't need them, they need us. And it isn't most of the world, it's mostly Europe.
"Allowing systemetaic torture, something its own founding fathers would have opposed. Can you imagine Jefferson listening to someone telling him waterboarding, shackling etc are not forms of torture?"
Can I imaging Jefferson hearing that the US government would not use torture in the 21st century to discover a plan to nuke New York City or Washington DC killing millions of Americans because of somethign he and others who created America wrote over two hundred years ago when the world was a different place? I think he'd be horrified at the prospect. That is not what the founding fathers of the United States had in mind when they wrote the Constitution. It was never intended as a suicide pact.
It is time for America to wake up and start thinking about itself first and foremost. It cannot save the rest of the world and that is not its reason for existance. Now it must focus on saving only itself.
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Ref post # 153 MarcusAureliusII
Oh dear. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions," is a saying of no value - other than revealing a lot about those using it. I do smile when I hear this useful indicator though. It provides no guidance, has no credibility and is attributed to no one of philisophic merit.
If you can, stop for a moment pulling the legs off spiders and consider:
What is wrong with good intentions?
What does it imply of those with bad intentions?
Its nonsense - and used by those with an evil agenda.
Ask your friends of the Jewish faith for the sources of these sayings:
"People doing what they can and have good intentions are rewarded"
"A sin performed with good intentions - is as great as a good deed performed without good intentions"
Discursive references to Chamberlain will amuse us all.
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I wouldn't say avoiding torture was a "good intention" anyway. I'd say it was avoiding a bad intention.....
Not sure why my comment was referred...maybe I shouldn't suggest sending people to war zones to see the hell that they support...
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Have values and morals slipped since WWII?
It seems ironic that the US prosecuted Nazis for water boarding in war crime trials. Their [nazis} defence was that they were doing there duty, in order to save German lives from a planned allied invasion. How many German lives would have been saved if they had discovered the date of 'D' day?
I also see there is a water board from Pol Pots era in the museum for genocide in Cambodia
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S&M
"What is wrong with good intentions?"
When good intentions flies in the face of rational thinking it leads inevitably to disaster, that's what wrong with it. That's why I gave the example of Barney Franks and Christopher Dodd.
Strontium90
"Have values and morals slipped since WWII?"
You mean since the firebombing of Dresden, Tokyo, and the atom bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? If you believe in morality, since war is immoral to begin with, the highest morality for a government is to protect its own citizens with all other considerations of lesser importance since that is its primary function. Since the US government has failed in that mission considering it had the means but not the will, the answer is yes. If it had acted morally, the USSR would never have been allowed to obtain nuclear weapons, al Qaeda never would have seen the light of dawn on 9-11 having been eliminated long before that day.
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#170
The best way to protect it's citizens, and the innocent citizens of other nations, is to secure a lasting peace.........
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Re 157,159,161
I almost expected Cardinal Jimenez to be reading this.
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Having been "trained" to resist these techniques and having seen them in action I personally would like to meet every individual who thinks this is a necessary evil and apply these methods to them for about 3 weeks and see if I can educate them into sanity.
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Let's hope he doesn't try and sell us a dead parrot.....
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#173
Make the insane so insane they become sane....I like it
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Hot/cold rooms, having water dumped on your face, loud music? Hardly torture.
Beheading people with knives, throwing acid into the faces of women, chopping off limbs? REAL torture.
Stop talking about this nonsense. No one cares if some jihadist felt a little uncomfortable.
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#176
Perhaps you would go through it 183 times and then tell us it's not torture.
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176 you say who cares about the jihhadist.
I say prove he is a jihadist before you start torturing then.
even though to be honest if you do prove it I will still say you are morally bankrupt.
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Beheading is murder not torture you dont have to wait to be beheaded again. Acid throwing is not done in a controlled environment with more acid throwing on the way in an hour. Chopping off limbs are you confusing some legal system for "torture". Certain inept individuals do not realise that if torture is allowed it becomes routine, human nature being human nature it is then applied more widely, and finally even daily mail readers might become victims.
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It would not have been necessary to waterboard "self-confessed 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammad 183 times" if he had given his interrogators what they wanted to know after the 182nd time even though I'm sure some would have liked to continue indefinitely. After the 183rd time, it also would have been illegal...because it would have been punishment for what he had done.
Now let me see if I understand this. Was it Abu Zubaydah who informed the CIA about Khalid Sheikh Mohammed after he was waterboarded 83 times or was it Khalid Sheikh Mohamad who informed them about Abu Zubaydah after he was waterboarded 183 times? No matter, they will both spend the rest of their lives incarcerated by the US government, until they die or are executed. Britain would have released them both for lack of evidence.
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Sorry Justin,
Yours is a ridiculous assertion. If torture was effective they wouldn't have needed to waterboard some of these people up to and above a 100 times. I am actually pretty appalled by your suggestions. I think you've been watching too much TV. In real life there aren't many ticking bomb, 24 like situations. I want real proof, besides Dick Cheney's assertion, we all know how trustworthy he is as a source, that useful information was obtained by these reprehensible means.
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"Livinginlalaland hits it on the head for me: waterboarding is always wrong except when it might not be."
So you approve of torture against terrorists then? Just as well the torturers never make mistakes isn't it? Oh wait a minute, they do. German citizen Khaled al-Masri was abducted and tortured for months in a case of mistaken identity.
Aside from the major moral issues, one of the main arguments against harsh treatment of prisoners is that you can never be 100% sure you have the right man.
If Iran starts quite openly waterboarding people it considers a threat to the state, can we expect a sympathetic line from you? Or how about if Hugo Chavez personally approves waterboarding as an interrogation technique. Will you sympathize with him, or stick the boot in?
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Torture News is breaking faster than I can keep up with.
The report of the Senate Armed Services Committee has been declassfied (over 250 pages on the CIA Defense Dept. nexus)
There are indicates that the purpose of the torture was to get false statements claiming a connection between Iraq a d Al-Qaeda. Was torture conducted to generate a political defense for the invasion of Iraq? Who destroyed the videos? Is there audio? Where are the there transcripts of these torture sessions?
The Republican political defense is beginning to emerge (stonewall, claim that investigations are partisan)
Lots of participants are beginning to talk including the prison director at Abu Grahib.
My fear is that there will be a rush to find a few scapegoats in order to "look forward."
What about the CIA Black Sites? Poland? Thailand? Who knows?
It's bad enough when torture is used against guilty people, but when my government tortures people who are completely innocent, that really makes my blood boil. who is innocent and who is guilty? Who know? When torture is used to extract evidence, that evidence is unreliable. So how can there be prosecution?
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Re 174
Or perform a silly walk
But in all seriousnees here I almost feel like telling Cheney to Shut up. I seriously doubt he's even read the Miranda Warnings which police are supposed to use everytime an arrest is made. If I were Cheney's Lawyer I would call him into my office and read him the Miranda Warning, especially the part where it says "Anything you say Can and will be used against you." That doesn't necessarily mean with law enforcement. That also extends to the interviews he has been giving to the press. That too can be used against him in a court of law.
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In these dark chambers of the military and CIA, and any other agencies we don't even know about, I wonder how many prisoners have died? How did they die? Suicide? Tortured to death?
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148 simon21,
Oh right, big difference.
Not physically damaged? Waterboarded 186 times. Not physically damaged. Are you crazy? Just tying the man down for that number of times will damage him.
Your inability to differentiate between the two does not mean there is no difference between them. I would think a rational person would see the difference in being beaten and tortured to death vs not. Being able to see the difference does not make me crazy, perhaps it does make you irrational though. You now propose tying someone down is physically damaging and equivalent to torture, is this your opinion or are you going to provide the medical proof to support your conjecture?
---------------------------------------------------------
The US executed the japanese for torturing their prisoners. Now it admits the Japanese were doing the right thing, even if they did it incorrectly.
That differentiation thingy of yours is popping up again. You should work on that.
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157. At 1:14pm on 23 Apr 2009, john-In-Dublin wrote:
Sorry to introduce a note of frivolity to a serious subject, but of all the analogies I expected to be introduced here -
I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition......
They invented it. With much the same reasoning.
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The Inquisition, what a show.
The Inquisition, here we go.
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The debate on whether torture is justified is academic. The fact is its illegal - explicitly in many forms. Those who advocate torture is a necessary tool need to go away start and start a campaign to change the law, if they're so convinced its necessary. Meanwhile, the existing law stands and should be applied to all those who've had any involvement in torture, from top to bottom. Its not even debatable.
As Mr 8thAmendment observes, the flow of torture news is unstoppable now - its like the final stages of a dam wall under pressure springing leaks across its face. As more information comes out - the greater the pressure on the rest.
The CIA have nothing to fear from Obama - and more to fear from the Bush's people. It was they after all, who started 'bubbling' undercover CIA agents. A very dangerous betrayal.
More and more will speak out, hoping to save their own skins, like the the AbuGhraib Governor, like the State dept advisors, like the CIA agents. There is already a mass of information from those who have told their individual tales so far in books and to journalists. Release of official documents will increase the stress on others. The dam wall will crumble.
Its happening faster than I predicted. I thought it would take a decade. At this rate we're likely to see Rumsfeld, Rice, Tenet, Wolfowitz, Libby, Cheney and Bush plus many, many more beneath them, right hand raised, swearing to tell the truth over the next few years
If they have a defence - let them tell the court. Some might get off - most won't. But that's the proper way of dealing with this - through the judiciary. If, after sentence, Obama wants to issue pardons - thats up to him. But after the population comes to fully endure the depth of the economic crisis caused during the Bush years - I doubt the country will be in any mood to see the guilty going free.
The rest of you who support torture. Go start protesting to change the law. Lets see you out on the streets for a change with some placards, chanting
"What do we want? TORTURE. When do we want it? NOW"
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Richard_SM:
Very well said, every word of it.
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"The debate on whether torture is justified is academic. The fact is its illegal"
So is selling investment instruments constructed of repackaged small parts of thousands of mortgages virtually every one of which is guaranteed to go into default but telling the investors that it is a safe secure investement and rated AAA. Seen anyone prosecuted for it yet? Seen anyone even sued for it yet? Minor infraction...that in aggregate bankrupted the entire world. The courts may be a little too busy for awhile to worry about the trivialities of torturing terrorists.
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Marcus:
You are brilliant, although you may not know it. You have employed the best political defense against torture , a felony punishable by 20 years in prison, and that is, to change the subject completely.
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Ref #191 MarcusAureliusII
It matters not to me, or anyone else, if the cases are queueing outside the courthouse. I'm patient. The more stress and anxiety it causes them - the better - blood pressure, heart attacks, strokes etc - particularly for the Type A's.
Let's face it - if they can build Detention Camps - Delta, Echo, Iguana etc - they can build a few more courts. I'm sure there's no shortage of builders right now. As for lawyers, ours specialise in different aspects of law - are you sure yours don't? Torture/War crimes is a different bag to 'due diligence' claims.
Don't think that the ICC might not come into play either. It's particularly suited to political leaders. There are strong signs Obama will take you back in, though personally I'd like to see them tried and punished in the countries where the crimes were committed.
Despite the credit crunch - looks like the sun's going to shine for many years to come.
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150. SaintOne wrote:
Cos it's not like America gave Israel weapons, vehicles and technology which were used to kill civilians and militants alike in Gaza?
Israel doesn't use American weapons to target Palestinian civilians in restaurants and on buses without a Palestinian terrorist in sight.
And Israelis don't dance in the street in delight and hand out sweets to their children at the news of Palestinian civilian deaths.
If Israel started to act like the Arabs in the Israeli Arab conflict America would stop assisting Israel in ten seconds flat.
Make some effort to understand the difference in the motivation and actions of the two sides in this conflict.
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'Those who would sacrifice freedom for security shall have neither' - Benjamin Franklin
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Ref: #194 TrueToo
TrueToo - you're absoluteley right Israel doesn't use American weapons to target Palestinian civilians in restaurants and on buses. They don't have such luxuries as restaurants and buses in Gaza. What's the point of a restaurant when they only have bland supplies of UN flour and oil?
Instead Israel uses American weapons to target Palestinian civilians in schools, in Doctors apartments, and in hospitals.
And of course Israelis don't dance in the street in delight and hand out sweets to their children at the news of Palestinian deaths. They have a little celebration inside the Prime Ministers office, inside the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, inside the offices of the Ministry of Immigrant Absorption. Children aren't allowed into these Government buildings.
Some people just don't understand, do they Truetoo?
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"And of course Israelis don't dance in the street in delight and hand out sweets to their children at the news of Palestinian deaths. They have a little celebration inside the Prime Ministers office, inside the Ministry of Foreign Affairs"
You left one out S&M. Israelis don't sit around in caves gloating over how they flew jets into skyscrapers killing thousands of people who work in them. Palestinians don't have skyscrapers. Not vertical ones. Israelis will have to content themselves killing terrorists in horizontal skyscrapers. So many terrorist targets, so little time. Why do the Israelis continue to sit around and wait when they should be attending to business? I think it's to torture the Arab countries who are blown away with fear over Iran. It's a little game of chicken Israel is playing with Obama. Who will flinch first. The Palestinians have become an unimportant side show. Why does anyone really care about them when even the other Arabs no longer pretend?
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The Rightwing of the Republican Party just doesn't seem to understand. Neither do the personalities at FIXED News. According to Keith Olberman on tonights Countdown, Sean Hannitty of Fixed News has volunteered himself to be Waterboarded in order to "prove" that it is not torture. He is doing this to raise money for a veterans charity. If this doesn't change his mind, nothing will.
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It would not be healthy for Obama to make the CIA his enemy. The last guy in the oval office who did that, Kennedy sold out the CIA by failing to protect the Mafia's interests in Cuba. He forgot that it was the Mafia that got him elected in the first place. He paid the ultimate price for forgetting who and what he was. That's one of life's lessons.
The Taleban by some accounts are maneuvering into position to take over Pakistan before much longer.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8015604.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8013677.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7601748.stm
The US and the rest of the world should be doing everything and I mean everything within their power to prevent it. But if it happens, a number of countries including India, Israel, the US, and likely the UK and France will have no choice but to prevent Pakistan's nuclear arsenal from falling into the hands of the Taleban and their friends in al Qaeda whose goal is to impose Sharia law on the entire world no matter what it takes. Iran and North Korea should learn a lesson that having nuclear weapons if you are a rogue state does not make you safe, it sets you up as a target for other nuclear powers to pre-emptively strike. One or another of them will realize that they have no rational choice and will act. I'm betting it will be India. Perhaps there are people there who still have guts and for whom terrorist attacks originating in Pakistan have left wounds that are not yet healed and all but forgotten.
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198 Richard_SM,
The debate on whether torture is justified is academic. The fact is its illegal - explicitly in many forms.
That's not the debate. The debate is if waterboarding and other enhanced interrogation techniques used by the CIA can be legally defined as torture. Torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering is intentionally inflicted upon a person. The memos in question are a legal opinion on what action constitute severe pain and suffering, which is not defined. IMO, in order for a serious prosecution to go forward, some governing body must legally define severe pain and suffering that could be universally accepted. In medicine, severe or chronic pain must be treated with morphine or some other narcotic. Is this the type of pain inflicted on detainees? If so, I agree with your comments. However, I believe it's important to realize that there is a distinction between what is and is not torture. This distinction can not be based on individual sensitivities.
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Sorry Richard, my previous post should have been numbered 189 not 198.
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200 rodidog
"Torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering is intentionally inflicted upon a person."
If being subjected to simulated drowning does not self-evidently fulfill your description above, then you are not thinking about it. The suffering is from thinking that they are going to drown you .... although perhaps by the 183rd time you've worked out it's just a game, so the suffering is reduced!!!! Yeah!
You continue
"In medicine, severe or chronic pain must be treated with morphine or some other narcotic. Is this the type of pain inflicted on detainees?"
What about suffering? You cannot simply create a legal limit for pain and suffering. Shall we invent a "pain-o-meter" to measure it, and then inflict pain up to but not beyond the legal limit for interrogation?
Some things must just be seen as being wrong in a civilised society, and to blur the issue with false logic in the name of security is to sacrifice what makes our society free.
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197. At 00:03am on 24 Apr 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"And of course Israelis don't dance in the street in delight and hand out sweets to their children at the news of Palestinian deaths. They have a little celebration inside the Prime Ministers office, inside the Ministry of Foreign Affairs"
You left one out S&M. Israelis don't sit around in caves gloating over how they flew jets into skyscrapers killing thousands of people who work in them."
But they do give medals and pensions to officers who empty their American made rifles into the backs of unarmed schoolgirls.
They do reward generals whom thier own parliament calls complicit war criminals with the PMs office etc.
"Palestinians don't have skyscrapers. Not vertical ones. Israelis will have to content themselves killing terrorists in horizontal skyscrapers. So many terrorist targets, so little time. Why do the Israelis continue to sit around and wait when they should be attending to business?"
I would say they kill/starve/mutilate enough children on a ergular basis.
That must be good enough for you Marcus.
"I think it's to torture the Arab countries who are blown away with fear over Iran. It's a little game of chicken Israel is playing with Obama. Who will flinch first. The Palestinians have become an unimportant side show. Why does anyone really care about them when even the other Arabs no longer pretend?"
It must be a mystery to you.
Its because teh Palestinians are not going to dissapear as Israel continues to decline and becomes increasingly more worthless as an Ally of the US.
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194. At 10:24pm on 23 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
150. SaintOne wrote:
Cos it's not like America gave Israel weapons, vehicles and technology which were used to kill civilians and militants alike in Gaza?
Israel doesn't use American weapons to target Palestinian civilians in restaurants and on buses without a Palestinian terrorist in sight."
BVut it does use American-made phosphorus bombs to burn Palestinian children.
And it does use 1970s US cluster bombs to help kill Lebanese children.
What do you think is Israel's problem with the under 5s that its military ends up killing/mutilating so many?
"
And Israelis don't dance in the street in delight and hand out sweets to their children at the news of Palestinian civilian deaths."
Don't they? They give medals to child killers.
"If Israel started to act like the Arabs in the Israeli Arab conflict America would stop assisting Israel in ten seconds flat."
Really well US support for Israel is declining and will continue to decline aas Israel continues to slide.
Electing neo-fascists as foriegn ministers not really a good idea.
"Make some effort to understand the difference in the motivation and actions of the two sides in this conflict."
Good idea but wiothout the rascism, islmophobia and profound anti-semetism that holds Israel can do no wrong and the killing of children is therefore fine.
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#197 MAII
"The Palestinians have become an unimportant side show. Why does anyone really care about them when even the other Arabs no longer pretend?"
Anyone that claims a group of people are nothing but a sideshow and should not be cared about is a person evil in epic proportions. Time and time again, you fail to realize that there are many palestinians that are against any kind of terrorism. These Palestinians deserve a better life.
#199 MAII
It will never get that far. I actually think Pakistan, with the US, may just be letting the Taleban overextend itself. They will spread to thin and be "out in the open" rather than caves. Easy picking for spy drones. I have a sneaking suspicion it may be a ploy by the states to take out a bunch of terrorists. Wishful thinking perhaps?
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186. At 8:05pm on 23 Apr 2009, rodidog wrote:
148 simon21,
Oh right, big difference.
Not physically damaged? Waterboarded 186 times. Not physically damaged. Are you crazy? Just tying the man down for that number of times will damage him.
Your inability to differentiate between the two does not mean there is no difference between them. I would think a rational person would see the difference in being beaten and tortured to death vs not. Being able to see the difference does not make me crazy, perhaps it does make you irrational though. You now propose tying someone down is physically damaging and equivalent to torture, is this your opinion or are you going to provide the medical proof to support your conjecture?"
Hmmm yes it is called common sense. I suggest you read up on the procedure.
Then try to comment
Or tie up your unwilling neighbour 186 times and see how they fair.
---------------------------------------------------------
"The US executed the japanese for torturing their prisoners. Now it admits the Japanese were doing the right thing, even if they did it incorrectly.
That differentiation thingy of yours is popping up again. You should work on that."
As long as you agree to work on your common sense. We will not consider your humanity
"We torture better than the japanese" is that your attitude.
Oh and people in US custody have been killed. Check out the Abu Ghraib photos one of the ginning grunts is giving the thumbs up over a corpse which seems to have been beaten to death.
But hey maybe they used a nice kind of club
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When an American court hears how torture extracted information from even one foreign Islamic terrorist that saved American lives in the United States, no jury in America will convict anyone involved. All it takes is one juror to vote for acquittal. This will set a precedent that will have all such similar cases thrown out prima facia. The ICC can only prosecute when the alleged perpetrator is not prosecuted in his own country. These cases will never see the light of day in the Hague but if somehow one is ever brought to trial, the Hague is hardly immune to being targeted by the CIA too. If I were an American working at NATO in the Hague, I'd call in sick and take that day off.
In another matter, PBS did a piece on what is still a primitive technology but bound to develop, robot soldiers. There are already working prototypes but at this stage they look primitive. It will be far easier for America to field robot soldiers when the only thing at risk is machines and not American lives. The US spends as much on military defense as the next 24 nations combined. Even autonomous robots are now being discussed. When wars are fought this way, America could be far more willing to take on onerous foreign military adventures.
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#207
The robot soldiers idea is a good one, but only if they are remotely operated by a soldier. If they are controlled by AI/programming, it would create too much controversy. One civilian killled by a robot acting on it's own accord would completele discredit the project.
Although I wouldn't want robot soldiers to be an excuse to be trigger happy when it comes to wars.
Your first paragraph, however, is a bunch of tosh. The CIA would never "target" the Hague, or NATO. Numbnuts.
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207. At 09:57am on 24 Apr 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Marcus, marcus why do you embarass yourself this way. Do your family know?
"When an American court hears how torture extracted information from even one foreign Islamic terrorist that saved American lives in the United States, no jury in America will convict anyone involved."
As soon as US official admits torture was invloved there would be no jury Marcus would there?
The presiding judge would immediately stop proceedings and the confession would be noted down.
Torture is illegal in the US and for US citizens - end of story.
It would be like a Police officer admitting he beat a suspect.
If the confession is noted as geneuine then there would no need of a jury
Do you see how you have made a prize ass of yourwelf again?
"All it takes is one juror to vote for acquittal. This will set a precedent that will have all such similar cases thrown out prima facia. "
Yes but confessing to an illegality means the Jury would not be involved.
The case is proven.
Lets make it simple for Marcus
Prosec: Did you torture the victim
Answer: Yes I did
Do you uinderstand the question?
Answer yes
end of case
"The ICC can only prosecute when the alleged perpetrator is not prosecuted in his own country. These cases will never see the light of day in the Hague but if somehow one is ever brought to trial, the Hague is hardly immune to being targeted by the CIA too. If I were an American working at NATO in the Hague, I'd call in sick and take that day off."
I think you should probably call in sick anyway.
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ref #198
You are actually listening to a hate monger and liar like Keith Obermann. Do you also believe Ed Shultz?
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205. At 09:52am on 24 Apr 2009, SaintOne wrote:
#
#199 MAII
It will never get that far. I actually think Pakistan, with the US, may just be letting the Taleban overextend itself. They will spread to thin and be "out in the open" rather than caves. Easy picking for spy drones. I have a sneaking suspicion it may be a ploy by the states to take out a bunch of terrorists. Wishful thinking perhaps?"
Sadly this taking out a bunch of terrorists usually also involves taking out bunches of children, wives, passers by etc.
It is amazing in the country that gave us Catch 22 with its "tight bomb patterns" (Heller was actually joking, but plainly his readeers take him seriously) that this type of targetting nonsense is still beleived.
More bombing of Pakistan will make the country less stable, not more, surely that is clear if anything is.
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210. At 10:36am on 24 Apr 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #198
You are actually listening to a hate monger and liar like Keith Obermann. Do you also believe Ed Shultz?"
You beleive Alan Dershovitz and you question others?
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- "200. At 04:30am on 24 Apr 2009, rodidog wrote:
Are you a moderator?198 Richard_SM,
The debate on whether torture is justified is academic. The fact is its illegal - explicitly in many forms.
That's not the debate. The debate is if waterboarding and other enhanced interrogation techniques used by the CIA can be legally defined as torture."
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#210
Wait, so your against hate mongers and liars? So, when you ramble on about Europe being a waste of time, Palestine being nothing worth noting etc, that's not hate mongering? Curious....you do know what hypocracy means
#211
I can see your point. But the reality is we can't really let the Taleban just sit around all cosy like, especially if we know where they are. The people that force women to stay inside unless they are with their father, and will flog anyone they feel like having accused them of a petty "crime".
Obviously getting rid of the Taleban must be done in a way that doesn't harm the civilian population, but having the Taleban lined up in plain sight is the best opportunity to do so.
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Re 210
I have been watch Kieth Olberman on Television(Sorry if I have misspelled his name) for the better part of 15 years. I do not see him as being a hate manner. What Keith Olberman actually does is fight for truth Justice and the American way by exposing the hypocricy and lies of the Republican media machine, where people on Fixed News actually read the daily talking points issued from the Republican National Committee. Olberman is a multitalented Broadcaster who has the guts to speak his mind. Take last night for example, Olberman took Bill-O to task for say that President Nixon never met with Chairman Mao on his 1972 Trip to China. Bill-O claimed on his show that Nixon never met Mao, inspite of video evidence to the contrary, and Kieth took him to task.
Kieth Olberman has been one of the broadcasters who has been out on front of this torture story, and took the Obama administration to task when it initially said that they would NOT prosecute Bush administration officials, in spite of overwhelming evidence that there was a concerted effort to by the Administration to find legal justifications for what they were doing. How is that being a Hate Monger.
Calling Keith Olberman a hate monger is like saying that Fixed News is "Fair and Balenced" no matter how much people may claim that it is true, the reality is that it isn't true.
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Apparently, there were lots of voices of dissent including the FBI, Army, Navy, and Marines. Check out this story from the Huffington Post.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-hamsher/fbi-werent-the-only-ones_b_190708.html
It would be interesting to know if there was a systemic cover up.
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214. At 11:11am on 24 Apr 2009, SaintOne wrote:
"#211
I can see your point. But the reality is we can't really let the Taleban just sit around all cosy like, especially if we know where they are. The people that force women to stay inside unless they are with their father, and will flog anyone they feel like having accused them of a petty "crime"."
Are you seriously suggesting the US problem with the Taleban is their attitude towards women?
Just off the US coast is a country called Haiti. If the condidtion of women is a central issue to the US it might make an effective start there by helping prevent endemic rape, raging aids, forced prostitution.
To the South Is Mexico. The position of young women on the US-Mexican border is so horrific to be almost beyond belief. Apaprently freshly butchered corpses turn up practically every second day.
And most women I know are keen on their rights, but they are also keen not to see their families blown up and childen mutilated.
"Obviously getting rid of the Taleban must be done in a way that doesn't harm the civilian population, but having the Taleban lined up in plain sight is the best opportunity to do so."
There is no way to eliminate the Taleban without damaging the civilian population.
The taleban thrive due to lack of resources, poverty, insecurity. Simply adding to these problems with yet more bombs will do nothing.
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Another unhealthy aspect of "enhanced interrogation" is the effect on the inerrogators. Some develop psychological problems. No doubt we will see more suicides, crime, and dysfunctional behavior from those who return. Many come back to the United States and launch careers as police officers. I predict an increase in police misconduct for many years to come.
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I tell you, this story is getting worse, Today the Pentagon has announced that with in a month they will be releasing photographs of US soldiers torturing detainees in Afghanistan. CNN has reported.
Secretary Gates has gone on record as supporting the release of the Torture Memos in part because he thought the information was going to come out anyway.
It seems as if the flow of information that is coming out on this story is tremendous. Everyday there seems to be a new leak, an new development. With each passing day, it looks like that a special prosecutor will have to be appointed. Now there is talk of Impeachment for Judge Bigbee, who authoured some of those memos. Many in Congress have called on him to resign. I am not exactly sure what is going to happen, but it seems ever apparent that Bush and Cheney could become the first former President and Vice President of the United States to be put on trial for crimes committed while they were in office.
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#217
No need to be so sarcastic. It doesn't help your arguement.
Obviously their treatment to women is not the ONLY reason the Taleban are dangerous. I'm sure you don't need me to list those reasons out.
What would you suggest should be done about the Taleban then? Let them occupy a section of Pakistan and hope they don't spread again? So far you have failed to offer any kind of idea of what should be done, you just seem to like to try and put other people's suggestions down. I'm not MAII or TT, so you don't have to be so aggressive towards me because I'm alot more open minded and I can particpate in an intelligent debate.
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218. At 12:16pm on 24 Apr 2009, 8thAmendment wrote:
Another unhealthy aspect of "enhanced interrogation" is the effect on the inerrogators. Some develop psychological problems. No doubt we will see more suicides, crime, and dysfunctional behavior from those who return. Many come back to the United States and launch careers as police officers. I predict an increase in police misconduct for many years to come."
Well quite.
How were the torturer's trained? Did they get bonus' for the pain inflicted?
What wil they do afterwards?
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# 160 RomeStu wrote:
"Oh Magic, can you not see the irony in your defense of Bush"
Blackadder - 'Baldrick, do you know what irony is?'
Baldrick - 'Yeah - it's like goldy, or silvery, or bronzey'....
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Oh Sainted One;
"Anyone that claims a group of people are nothing but a sideshow and should not be cared about is a person evil in epic proportions."
I haven't heard one word from you about the Tamils trapped in the war zone in Sri Lanka. I didn't see one word from you about the people in East Timor when the Indonesians were slaughtering them. Not much from you about Darfur. Never saw one of your postings about Ruwanda..or Kosovo. Don't recall seeing what you had to say about Christians being persecuted by the Chinese government...or by villagers in Northern India. Not a word about the street children being kidnapped and killed by police in Brazil. Nothing about the white farmers being driven off their land, some of them killed in Zimbabwe. Not much from you about victims of the Lord's Resistance Army. Or about a lot of other people being victimized because of who they happen to be. Guess they are just a side show to you. Just about the Palestinians and the Jews. You self righteous hypocritical Europeans make me vomit.
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If you studied the Israeli-Arab conflict a bit you'd be less at risk of making a fool of yourself. There are plenty of restaurants in Gaza and elsewhere in Palestine and plenty of public transport. But believe the Israel-bashing propaganda if you want to.
And I note you have nothing to say about the Iranians torturing the Iranian-Canadian journalist to death. I guess you'd prefer to carry on deluding yourself that a woman accused of spying would be treated better by the Iranians than the Americans.
But maybe you just didn't notice my comment on the issue the first time around. In that case, and in the event that you might like to learn a bit about Iran, here it is:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/04/so_dick_cheney_says_httpwwwfox.html#P78980010
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#223 MAII
What kind of arguement is that? You think I'm a hypocrit beacuase I don't mention every single case of death on the globe? Just because I don't mention them doens't mean I think they aren't important. This is a blog about the US, and the US is heavily linked to the Israel/Palestine conflict, and has vested interests in it. They do not have the same investment in Sri Lanka or Africa - national security is not a concern for them there. If this were a blog on conflict, then you would ahve every right to pin that on me - but it isn't
Your arguement is a fallacy. You EXPLICITLY stated that a group of people were not worth caring about. I have done no such thing. Your feeble attempts to try and insuate me are pathetic.
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My comment at 224 was addressed to no. 196. Richard_SM
220. SaintOne,
You are sounding less and less open-minded with every comment you make. Your problem with myself and MarcusAureliusII is not that we are not open-minded but that neither of us thinks like you. That's pretty narrow-minded of you when you think about it.
...you do know what hypocracy means.
Perhaps you should learn how to spell it correctly before posing the question.
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Oh Sainted One
"What kind of arguement is that? You think I'm a hypocrit beacuase I don't mention every single case of death on the globe"
No, because you don't mention any of them. Just the Palestinians and the Jews. That's a reflection of your seething hatred. It's endemic in Europe. Hate the Jews. Hate the Roma. Hate hate hate. Europeans think they are the best and smartest people in the world but history has proven the are the worst and stupidest. Two centuries ago they ruled the world. How ironic that not only are they fading into obscurity and irrelevance to the rest of the world, but it is happening at the hands of those they wrote off as just so much human trash. Refugees they cursed who fled, and now the huddled masses of Asia they exploited as limitless worthless labor. We in America who are their descendants and those in China and India are our ancestors revenge, not by conscious will but because that is the way history is playing itself out. The greatest miscalculation in history with the profoundest of consequences.
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224. At 1:37pm on 24 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
If you studied the Israeli-Arab conflict a bit you'd be less at risk of making a fool of yourself. There are plenty of restaurants in Gaza and elsewhere in Palestine and plenty of public transport. But believe the Israel-bashing propaganda if you want to."
Since you s usual evince no eividence for this ridiculous remark it can be dismissed.
You have nothing to say of value about this conflict since your views are formed simply on prejudice.
To imply in the face of every piece of evidence from T Blair (hardly a friend of the Palestinians)the Israeli government etc that the state of the imprisoned Palestinians in Gaza is not dire in every respect is grotesque.
"
And I note you have nothing to say about the Iranians torturing the Iranian-Canadian journalist to death. I guess you'd prefer to carry on deluding yourself that a woman accused of spying would be treated better by the Iranians than the Americans."
Hardly equivalent to the torture of 1 million people is it?
See what I mean by prejudice. Only an idiot would make the comparison.
The British were not the equivalent of the Nazis because they occasionally mistreated prisoners and imprisoned jews.
"But maybe you just didn't notice my comment on the issue the first time around. In that case, and in the event that you might like to learn a bit about Iran, here it is:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/04/so_dick_cheney_says_httpwwwfox.html#P78980010 "
Just another rant proving you do not like molsems and seek any excuse to have a bash.
I comprehenisvely demolished this so-called case with ease.
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223. At 1:16pm on 24 Apr 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Oh Sainted One;
"Anyone that claims a group of people are nothing but a sideshow and should not be cared about is a person evil in epic proportions."
I haven't heard one word from you about the Tamils trapped in the war zone in Sri Lanka."
Keep your filthy abuse for your AWB friends.
As if you care one fig about the Tamils or any other non=-white Americans.
It is outrageous bigoted rascists such as you are still allowed on this site
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#226
I mentioned you because you and Simon always seem to be having "debates". I apologize, because I don't really have any beef with you. And thank you for pointing out a spelling mistake, how big of you.
And I do think MAII is close-minded. Just read his comments, then read mine. I'm not anti-Israel, nor anti-Palestine. I think they are both wrong and right about different things. I don't really know how else one can be fair. The world is not black and white.
#227 MAII
Did you even read the rest of my post? I gave you pretty damn good reasons why I didn't mention any of those conflicts in the AMERICAN blog. As for Israel, I don't hate them. I understand why they wanted their own state, given the atrocitey that was the holocaust. Please read some of my older posts. But just because of the holocaust it doesn't mean everything they have down since the dawn of the Israeli state is right, or perfect. The same applies to Palistine - hamas is a cowardly organisation, but there are many Palestinians that are completely innocent and end up caught in the crossfire.
The only person who hates around here is you, and your peculiar racism towards Europeans.
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220. At 12:43pm on 24 Apr 2009, SaintOne wrote:
#217
No need to be so sarcastic. It doesn't help your arguement.
Apologies but one reads more rubbsih on the rights of women then almost any other subject.
As has been pointed out numerous times the first right of any human being is to stay alive. Once you can acheive that that is the time to talk about other rights.
Going on as people do about veils, marriage laws etc while many woman starve and die due to lack of resources is pure humbug and nothing else.
Obviously their treatment to women is not the ONLY reason the Taleban are dangerous. I'm sure you don't need me to list those reasons out."
Really? I don't think so not as dangerous as your average Colombian drug lord.
They harboured a set of "terrrorists" wow well lets see how many countries do that. Shall we begin with Georgia, according to the Russians, then we can move to Armenia according to the Turks, we can include India according to the Chinese (and the Sri Lankan government, and then we include practically every country in SE Asia according to its neighbors. Not forgetting the US accoridng to Iran a France the UK according to Rwanda
"What would you suggest should be done about the Taleban then? Let them occupy a section of Pakistan and hope they don't spread again? So far you have failed to offer any kind of idea of what should be done, you just seem to like to try and put other people's suggestions down. I'm not MAII or TT, so you don't have to be so aggressive towards me because I'm alot "
The Taleban will not spread, if the reasons for it do not spread or it can be made to moderate its ways.
It is essential in any such situation to understand why people support such a movement. I suspect it is because it establsihes a crude law and order regime and is relatively uncorrupt.
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- "224. At 1:37pm on 24 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
Geese and gandersIf you studied the Israeli-Arab conflict a bit you'd be less at risk of making a fool of yourself."
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226. At 2:04pm on 24 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
My comment at 224 was addressed to no. 196. Richard_SM
220. SaintOne,
You are sounding less and less open-minded with every comment you make. Your problem with myself and MarcusAureliusII is not that we are not open-minded but that neither of us thinks like you. That's pretty narrow-minded of you when you think about it.
This from someone who has a beef with "dark hued" races and bases their views on the Likud party.
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#231
Please Simon, I never said a Columbian drug lord wasn't dangerous either....
And yes, of course there are women starving and dying. But in most places where that is happening, Men are starving and dying too. In Pakistan, whilst I'm sure there are cases of such things, the men do not have to follow such strict rules, where as the women do. That is the key difference.
"The Taleban will not spread, if the reasons for it do not spread or it can be made to moderate its ways."
I hope that is the case. But it's not much of a stretch think that in the future they will harbour and train terrorists again. Think back to Mumbai, it wasn't so long ago. The region is insecure and something needs to be done about it rather than leaving it and hoping for the best. Maybe sending drones/troops in isn't a good idea. In fact it probably is a bad one. Let's hope the aid being sent recently is used properly and effectively!
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223. MarcusAureliusII,
Agreed. The selective Israel-bashing on this site is extreme. These kids have been pumped so full of indoctrination they can no longer think for themselves - if they ever could. Iran, SaintOne, is also very topical and relevant to the US and therefore to this blog. It is also highly relevant to a thread on torture. But you on the left simply will not take off your rose-tinted glasses and look at Iran fairly and squarely. It is one of the worst human rights violators on the planet. I thought you guys were so concerned about human rights, or so it seems from the way you go on about them. I must have been wrong.
The Israelis - the ones you love to hate - are humanitarian enough to take in desperate Sudanese Africans - Muslims fleeing genocide by their Arab Muslim brothers. There are now four thousand of them in Israel. But don't complain about Sudan (also extremely relevant to this blog) just carry on bashing the Israelis. But don't talk about hypocrisy.
228. Simon21,
You demolished nothing. I did read that comment. You decided the doctor who provided the evidence of the torture could well be lying and that was the extent of your "case." You ignored all the other evidence like the fact that the Iranians withheld the body from the Canadian son.
If this is what you call a success on your part I'd hate to see what happens when you fail.
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235. At 2:48pm on 24 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
223. MarcusAureliusII,
Agreed. The selective Israel-bashing on this site is extreme. These kids have been pumped so full of indoctrination they can no longer think for themselves - if they ever could. Iran, SaintOne, is also very topical and relevant to the US and therefore to this blog. It is also highly relevant to a thread on torture. But you on the left simply will not take off your rose-tinted glasses and look at Iran fairly and squarely. It is one of the worst human rights violators on the planet. I thought you guys were so concerned about human rights, or so it seems from the way you go on about them. I must have been wrong.
The Israelis - the ones you love to hate - are humanitarian enough to take in desperate Sudanese Africans - Muslims fleeing genocide by their Arab Muslim brothers. There are now four thousand of them in Israel. But don't complain about Sudan (also extremely relevant to this blog) just carry on bashing the Israelis. But don't talk about hypocrisy."
Four thousand Sudanese? And that hardly equates to keeping 4 million people in subjegation does it.
Not equivalent to butchering a whole family of 21 and calling it 2unfortunate".
228. Simon21,
You demolished nothing. I did read that comment. You decided the doctor who provided the evidence of the torture could well be lying and that was the extent of your "case." You ignored all the other evidence like the fact that the Iranians withheld the body from the Canadian son.
If this is what you call a success on your part I'd hate to see what happens when you fail.
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#235
How many times do I have to make it clear I don't hate Israel - I just think they aren't immune to mistakes, and that they have made mistakes.
And you seem to have missed the root of that particular argument. Let me make it clear:
1. MAII describes Plaestinians as a waste of space
2. I say that to write off a group of people is something on par with evil
3. He accuses me of not bringing up any other conflicts and thus having a bias
Do you not see the fallacy there? He was the one that was talking about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Not me. They were talking about it, and I joined in.
And yes, Iran have done some vile things. So has Britain and America - fire bombing Dresden, Native Americans being slaughtered etc etc. Should I make sure I bring those up too in every arguement?
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I think there's something darkly comedic about Cheney's argument that we should see the data that was retrieved from these "interrogations" before making up our minds. I can imagine it as follows: Cheney is being arrested for grinding up people and turning them into sausages, and as he struggles away in handcuffs, he screams to the officers... "But you haven't even TASTED the sausages!"
To put another point on it, let's think about this: if we have NO TOOLS to protect ourselves besides rampant torture, then a) what is wrong with us? b) how did we get into this situation and c) how do we get out?
Those are the questions we need to answer, not "how can we legally get away with torturing people?"
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#238
Agreed.
But they did taste good....
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Simple Simon;
I've written on BBC blogs extensively on many of these subjects. I wrote considerably about the three hundred thousand already dead and the two million whose lives are in gave jeopardy having been driven from their homes by the Sudanese military and the terrorist gangs the government supports in Sudan. This is a prime example of Arab genocide against black Africans, an example of unabashed race hatred rationalized by creating a straw man of "rebels" who resisted this genocide in the first place. The Arab governments not only don't condemn this "Arabization" of the Sudan, their leaders said at the recent Arab League conference that they would protect Sudan's leaders like Bashir from prosecution by the ICC. So much for international law and the ICC. Think about that next time someone throws up garbage about illegal settlements on the West Bank of the Jordan River.
How amusing it is to watch the absurd construct of the EU as Europe's last gasp of hope in its death throes trying to cling to its pretense of being a world power. And how ironic to watch China with the help of American and Japanese technology and American, Japanese, and European based corporate investment take Europe's industry down. What a ludicrous statement I heard on BBC last night by someone talking about China eventually becoming an importing nation and importing goods made in Europe on a large scale. Talk about delusional.
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- "The Taleban will not spread, if the reasons for it do not spread or it can be made to moderate its ways."
"The Taleban" are no more a monolithic entity than "The Catholics" or "The Arabs" or, for that matter, "The Americans". My friends in Afghanistan are operating co-educational schools with the full approval of the local "Taleban"..."The Taleban" and related phenomena do not arise in a vacuum. Our attitudes, approaches and deeds are important. So far, "We" have not been very clever in considering our actions. Hopefully "we" are capable of learning and adapting our approaches. A little humility goes a long way.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
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I find it rather harrowing to know that so many people have no problem with torture. It is not ok in ANY circumstance, and the US is no exception to the rule. The entire Bush administration should be indicted for warcrimes in my opinion.
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#240
"How amusing it is..."
Nearly as amusing as you, but not quite as sad or real.
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I question the use of the word "torture". I think any USMC or Brit Marine can tell you that, with the exception of water-boarding, most of what was described as torture by the ICRC Report on Gitmo happens to military recruits as a matter of training.
I have only a little sympathy. Yes, I'm certain that the experience was terrible. I'm also certain that if they hadn't been hanging out with the wrong people or making ludicrous decisions with their futures, they wouldn't have been mistaken for terrorists. Like mom always said, "Make good choices, dear".
I also grapple with the thought of what would have been done to us if the tables were turned. By comparison, water-boarding seems like a nice splash in a pool.
One last thing: Many of these men had subscribed to the notion that murdering scores or even hundreds of people while committing suicide was somehow honorable. If they are so willing to die for their cause, then why whine like a simpleton because someone splashed some water in your face?
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#241
That is noble work they are doing there
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#244
Just because they have low standards doesn't mean we should fall into the trap of assuming it allows us to lower ours
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lyssafarley (#242) "The entire Bush administration should be indicted for warcrimes in my opinion."
Really? You don't think that culpability is an individual thing and that people ought to be prosecuted for their own deeds?
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if the US tortured and had no apologies about it then it would not be much of a big deal. But the US tortures but they led the campaign to outlaw torture throughot the world, hence the scandal. Why propose these laws and try to enforce them throughout the world, if when tested you will not obey these laws? The controversy about torture is not about whether or not it works, it is about whether or not the US can be held to a higher standard as a global leader if they themselves do not follow the guidelines that they set.
This will change the way war is waged among other nations as well and will undo the progress made throughout the world in the 60 + years since world war 2. That is why this is such a big deal. How many steps back will this be for the world. If the US says nothing is wrong with torture they can expect that other forces around the world will not try to avoid using torture as well. The US will have lost the moral high ground and the implications of that is unimaginable.
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California Dave,
- "One last thing: Many of these men had subscribed to the notion that murdering scores or even hundreds of people while committing suicide was somehow honorable. If they are so willing to die for their cause,"
One more last thing: Proof of guilt.Complain about this comment
240. At 3:19pm on 24 Apr 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Simple Simon;
I've written on BBC blogs extensively on many of these subjects. I wrote considerably about the three hundred thousand already dead and the two million whose lives are in gave jeopardy having been driven from their homes by the Sudanese military and the terrorist gangs the government supports in Sudan."
Oh you are concerned about the Sudanese now. Well the vast majority of what you write is simple ranting about the "Europeens".
And someone who cannot distinguish between one country and another is hardly likely to be able to make any intelligent comment about "Africa"
Especially someone who seems to want whole groups of people to be "dealt with" violently.
After all if all "Europeens" are the same despised "race", presumably black Africans are thought to be the same
I'll pass over the facts of the Sudanese case where we have a civil war and terrorist gangs are used on both sides.
"This is a prime example of Arab genocide against black Africans, an example of unabashed race hatred rationalized by creating a straw man of "rebels" who resisted this genocide in the first place."
Oh I wondered when you would get to the racial element
Nothing to do with race. Black Africans are on both sides, as the BBC found to its embarrasmsnet when it went to a government post and found it manned by black african militia.
Not that blacks and others do not intermarry in the Sudan as they do everywhere else.
So crude, bigoted racial stereotyping of the conflict simply demonstrates your profound ignorance and prejudices.
" The Arab governments not only don't condemn this "Arabization" of the Sudan, their leaders said at the recent Arab League conference that they would protect Sudan's leaders like Bashir from prosecution by the ICC. So much for international law and the ICC. Think about that next time someone throws up garbage about illegal settlements on the West Bank of the Jordan River."
Has this drivel a point. What does Arabicisation mean? Illegal settlements in Israel are justified because of the Sudan?
Trying to dress up racial theory with modern politics does not work.
Iam sorry deeply sorry to have to tell you this Marcus but as they say in Godzone's country "we are all mongrels". You might have black, "arab", asian, ancestors.
The truth must be faced.
The Arab governments not only don't condemn this "Arabization" of the Sudan, their leaders said at the recent Arab League conference that they would protect Sudan's leaders like Bashir from prosecution by the ICC. So much for international law and the ICC. Think about that next time someone throws up garbage about illegal settlements on the West Bank of the Jordan River.
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Saint One (245),
- "That is noble work they are doing there"
Aye, and, it's amazing how far a small amount of money goes. One of the great imbalances in the "global economy" is the fact that what we get for an hour's effort will often be as much (in purchasing power) as many folk get in a week or more....Such imbalances cannot endure forever, and the unwinding may already have begun.Peace in all languages
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It is also a bit confusing how Dick Cheney says so much about keeping the country safe. 9/11 happened under his administrations watch, but somehow the political spin of the party has made it seem as if the aministration holds no responsibility for what happened while they were in power and blames the previous administration. When the tables were turned in '93 I did not hear the first Bush admin being blamed for what happened when Clinton was in power.
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#244 - I don't think that it is as easy as that. You can spend a lifetime with a person and not really know them. Don't you think it's possible that some of the people interrogated and tortured had no terrorist leanings at all? Do you really trust that everyone they brought in and interrogated were actually terrorists? Why is it that in hunting terrorists, a suspect is guilty until proven innocent?
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235. At 2:48pm on 24 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
"228. Simon21,
You demolished nothing. I did read that comment. You decided the doctor who provided the evidence of the torture could well be lying and that was the extent of your "case." You ignored all the other evidence like the fact that the Iranians withheld the body from the Canadian son."
That is lack of evidence o ignorant one not evidence.
These are the reasons I and most others run rings around you. You do not even understand your own postings.
When you e understand what evidence actually is do come back.
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234. At 2:36pm on 24 Apr 2009, SaintOne wrote:
#231
Please Simon, I never said a Columbian drug lord wasn't dangerous either....
And yes, of course there are women starving and dying. But in most places where that is happening, Men are starving and dying too. In Pakistan, whilst I'm sure there are cases of such things, the men do not have to follow such strict rules, where as the women do. That is the key difference. "
That is actually not true.
If you want sincerely to help women reflect on the success of micro finance in Bangladesh.
It has done more to help women survive and flourish then all the pious lectures about their "status".
These sort of intiaitves work, not dropping bombs on their families.
"The Taleban will not spread, if the reasons for it do not spread or it can be made to moderate its ways."
I hope that is the case. But it's not much of a stretch think that in the future they will harbour and train terrorists again. Think back to Mumbai, it wasn't so long ago. The region is insecure and something needs to be done about it rather than leaving it and hoping for the best."
As I said the best way to secure it is to increase its prosperity.
Its very simple, all human beings essentially desire the same things. No ethnic group seeks conflict for the joy of conflict alone.
Violence may make teh newspaper headlies but it rarely if ever works.
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238, Quorulex:
"I can imagine it as follows: Cheney is being arrested for grinding up people and turning them into sausages, and as he struggles away in handcuffs, he screams to the officers... "But you haven't even TASTED the sausages!"
That is just about the most astute comment/analogy I've seen on this thread. Not to mention highly entertaining (darkly, of course).
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242. At 3:31pm on 24 Apr 2009, lyssafarley wrote:
I find it rather harrowing to know that so many people have no problem with torture. It is not ok in ANY circumstance, and the US is no exception to the rule. The entire Bush administration should be indicted for warcrimes in my opinion. "
It is deeply sickening how 9/11 gave a whole raft of little would be hitlers and Heydrichs the chance to strut their bigotry under the guise of national security.
Liberties won for hundreds of years were suddenly discarded and the sacrifices of whole generations overthrown.
And a motley crew of get lucky murderous criminals suddenly found themselves elevated to the status of world threat.
Something communist Russia took years to acheive with all its nuclear weapons, was suddenly overtaken by Afghanistan and Iraq of all the places on God's earth!
The reality of course was that the rabid right needed a new bogeyman to win elections with.
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#255
I'm not going to lie, your post has confused me! I am not familiar with micro-financing in Bangladesh, much to my own ignorance. Are you saying it is better to ensure an area is "well off" & prosperus, and that that will lead to equality among genders? If so, I agree - however, poverty shouldn't be an excuse for sexiist persecution.
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#256
Seconded.
Tis a shame he does not post more often :(
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Re previous post:
*He or She
Fell into the gender trap.
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Oh Sainted One
"Just because they have low standards doesn't mean we should fall into the trap of assuming it allows us to lower ours"
I liked the way the Redcoats wouldn't break ranks and shoot back at the American Revolutionaries until they were ordered to do so. They just kept on marching to be picked off like ducks in a carnival shooting gallery. They had their standards too. They'd rather march and die than disobey orders. What a naive Euromind you have to think that Americans will not torture terrorist suspects they think have vital information about the security of the United States to reveal no matter what the government officials or courts tell them to do. Nobody can stop it.
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#247
Really? You don't think that culpability is an individual thing and that people ought to be prosecuted for their own deeds?
Good point. Bush was commander in chief, so I think it's not a stretch to say that he is accountable for the actions of those under his command. Do you think that his ignorance makes him immune? Rumsfeld was the secretary of defense, and so what happened in Iraq clearly falls under his responsibility.
Please don't take that wrong, I am just discussing. I just watched a documentary called 'No end in sight' about the administrations' handling of the Iraq war and it seemed clear to me that they are accountable for what happened there, and they (particularly Rumsfeld) should not be able to just walk away after making such a huge mess.
Thanks for your comment, it's always good to hear what others have to say.
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Simple Simon
How typical of European anti-semites you are by trying to obfuscate the simple truth of Arab race based genocide in Sudan and Arab refusal to comply with international law when it suits them in making this simple truth seem complex and convoluted when it isn't.
BTW, Columbian drug lords are under the pratection of....Hugo Chavez, Europe's latest Communist darling. When Columbian authorities in hot pursuit through the jungle attacked them across the border in what was technically Venezuela and killed one of their leaders, Chavez and his fellow Communist brute Morales in neighboring Bolivia were ready to declare war on Columbia. How convenient for Venezuela that it had bought a billion dollars worth of Russian arms to fight with. Too bad, it would have been the perfect excuse for the US to move in and overthrow his failing regime. But the dictator for life lived to see another day.
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#261
"Nobody can stop it."
Too late. Obama can and has.
Hahahahaha.
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#263
Marcus, what happened to you to make you such a foul and bitter person? What happened in Europe to make you hate it so much? Bad experience in Amsterdam? Not a fan of culture? A broken heart?
Poor little Marcus
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261. At 4:33pm on 24 Apr 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Oh Sainted One
"Just because they have low standards doesn't mean we should fall into the trap of assuming it allows us to lower ours"
I liked the way the Redcoats wouldn't break ranks and shoot back at the American Revolutionaries until they were ordered to do so. They just kept on marching to be picked off like ducks in a carnival shooting gallery. They had their standards too. They'd rather march and die than disobey orders. What a naive Euromind you have to think that Americans will not torture terrorist suspects they think have vital information about the security of the United States to reveal no matter what the government officials or courts tell them to do. Nobody can stop "
I like the way the US encourages female enlistment so its male soldiers can enjoy themsleves withot having to hire teh locals.
Apparently female US soldioers must carry knives to protect themselves from their own side!
I know you get a purple heart in the US for getting wounded. What medal tdo they give you for raping a colleague?
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263. At 4:45pm on 24 Apr 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Simple Simon
How typical of European anti-semites you are by trying to obfuscate the simple truth of Arab race based genocide in Sudan and Arab refusal to comply with international law when it suits them in making this simple truth seem complex and convoluted when it isn't."
How typical of a dedicated anti-semite to see conflicts in terms of race.
Whre did you get yor arm band from Marcus?
What a other races would you like to see suppressed?
Simple question.
"BTW, Columbian drug lords are under the pratection of....Hugo Chavez, Europe's latest Communist darling. When Columbian authorities in hot pursuit through the jungle attacked them across the border in what was technically Venezuela and killed one of their leaders, Chavez and his fellow Communist brute Morales in neighboring Bolivia were ready to declare war on Columbia. How convenient for Venezuela that it had bought a billion dollars worth of Russian arms to fight with. Too bad, it would have been the perfect excuse for the US to move "
SO er the US is frightened of er Hugo Chavez?
Maybe its soldiers are too busy raping each other?
ANother US failure?
Oh dear.
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263. At 4:45pm on 24 Apr 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Simple Simon
How typical of European anti-semites you are by trying to obfuscate the simple truth of Arab race based genocide in Sudan and Arab refusal to comply with international law when it suits them in making this simple truth seem complex and convoluted when it isn't."
This from someone whose racial hatred of arabs is all too self evident.
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"I liked the way the Redcoats wouldn't break ranks and shoot back at the American Revolutionaries until they were ordered to do so. They just kept on marching to be picked off like ducks in a carnival shooting gallery. They had their standards too. They'd rather march and die than disobey orders."
And that's just about the dumbest comment/analogy on this thread.
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Simon21, 257
Thanks for your post, I agree completely. It is scary what atrocities people commit in the name of religion, patriotism, etc., and that they think those reasons are legitimate. I don't care who your God or country is, every human being should be treated with respect and be given the benefit of the doubt (this includes members of ALL religions and ALL countries).
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Simple Simon
"I know you get a purple heart in the US for getting wounded. What medal tdo they give you for raping a colleague?"
What medal do they give British naval officers for surrendering their fellow sailors under their command to Iranians on speedboats in broad daylight in international waters without firing a single shot in their defense? What medal did Neville Chamberlain get for surrendering Czechoslovakia to Hitler? He got the Battle of Britain he and his constituency so richly deserved. How fortunate for the British that the French exist or they might instead hold the world's championship record for surrendering in the face of aggression.
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Now there's a truly twisted characterization of the British, who stood alone against the Nazis for a couple of years while the US dithered over whether we should get involved.
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Jack and Jill went up A_Hill
They had no choice. It was that or the entire nation would have been enslaved. All further resistance would have met with the kind of brutality the Nazis were famous for...which wasn't all that different from the brutality the British Empire imposed on its colonial subjects for centuries. Only an American lifeline saved Britain at the last moment. Seems Britain still clings to those apron strings in its imagined one way "special relationship" we sometimes humor their delusions about.
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248
The problem is, that Torture is illegal in the United STates of America by law and the treaties we have signed. Back in the civil war, we prosecuted troops on both sides for torturing POW's. We prosecuted Japanese soldiers for waterboarding. So why shouldn't our own personel and elected officials be held to the same standards.
273
I find your outright support for torture to be disturbing. How anyone outside of El Rushbo and Sean Hannity support these actions is beyond me? I don't want my country engaging in Waterboarding or any other form of torture, in part because it puts OUR own troops in danger. If we start torturing people, we have NO RIGHT to complain if other countries start torturing Our own personel. That is Why we should NOT BE trying to come up with legal justifications for torture.
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Sports Fan (274),
I find your outright support for torture to be disturbing. "
But not at all surprising.
;-(
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Couch Potato
"If we start torturing people, we have NO RIGHT to complain if other countries start torturing Our own personel. That is Why we should NOT BE trying to come up with legal justifications for torture."
I've heard that canard from soft headed liberals from time immemorial but the world doesn't work that way. The bad guys we fight will torture captive Americans no matter what we or they sign up to. Do you think al Qaeda would stop torturing Americans? Did you see the video of their beheading of the WSJ reporter in Pakistan. It wasn't some clean axeman who cut his head off with one stroke, the terrorists sawed it off slowly. Perhaps if we hung their severed heads out in public, would be terrorists would think twice before joining up. Does that thought revolt you, boggle your sensibilities. Good, then that is one more good reason to do it.
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#202 RomeStu,
If being subjected to simulated drowning does not self-evidently fulfill your description above, then you are not thinking about it. The suffering is from thinking that they are going to drown you .... although perhaps by the 183rd time you've worked out it's just a game, so the suffering is reduced!!!! Yeah!
Just an FYI, it's not MY description of tortue, it's the definition of torture as defined by the UN and Geneva Conventions. Did the simulated drowning cause severe pain and suffering? That it did is speculation on your part. Your definition of suffering being, they think they're going to drown, is that a legal definition? I don't ask this to be flippant, but where does anxiety end and torture begin?
What about suffering? You cannot simply create a legal limit for pain and suffering. Shall we invent a "pain-o-meter" to measure it, and then inflict pain up to but not beyond the legal limit for interrogation?
That might be a good idea since there is a legal definition of torture as part of the treaties against torture, but no definition on what is meant by severe pain and suffering.
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271. At 5:12pm on 24 Apr 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Simple Simon
"I know you get a purple heart in the US for getting wounded. What medal tdo they give you for raping a colleague?"
What medal do they give British naval officers for surrendering their fellow sailors under their command to Iranians on speedboats in broad daylight in international waters without firing a single shot in their defense? What medal did Neville Chamberlain get for surrendering Czechoslovakia to Hitler? He got the Battle of Britain he and his constituency so richly deserved. How fortunate for the British that the French exist or they might instead hold the world's championship record for surrendering in the face of aggression."
Oh dear Marcus getting upset?
US soldiers are called grunts I beleive. Does that derive from the noise they make when they rape their colleagues?
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Should we start impeachment proceedings against Obama now since he revealed classified information whose secrecy is vital to American national interests to America's enemies or should we wait until he does more damage? I don't hear any calls in Congress for it yet. I'm afraid it will need more time.
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277. At 8:08pm on 24 Apr 2009, rodidog wrote:
#202 RomeStu,
If being subjected to simulated drowning does not self-evidently fulfill your description above, then you are not thinking about it. The suffering is from thinking that they are going to drown you .... although perhaps by the 183rd time you've worked out it's just a game, so the suffering is reduced!!!! Yeah!
J"ust an FYI, it's not MY description of tortue, it's the definition of torture as defined by the UN and Geneva Conventions. Did the simulated drowning cause severe pain and suffering? That it did is speculation on your part."
No it is common sense.
Does any torture cause pain to another according to your weird view? Or is all pain just speculation.
Maybe those US soldiers toruted by the Japanese were not really in pain. How can we tell, they're dead!
Y"our definition of suffering being, they think they're going to drown, is that a legal definition? I don't ask this to be flippant, but where does anxiety end and torture begin?"
Troture is tortue. The fear of suffocation is an agony. We have plentyof victims from teh KGB etc.
Of course it could all be lying
"What about suffering? You cannot simply create a legal limit for pain and suffering. Shall we invent a "pain-o-meter" to measure it, and then inflict pain up to but not beyond the legal limit for interrogation?"
What about deliberately not inflicting pain?
"That might be a good idea since there is a legal definition of torture as part of the treaties against torture, but no definition on what is meant by severe pain and suffering."
No common sense.
Waterboarding is torture, what do you suggest that it is? used to comfort the victim? Used to take care of them?
Or used to inflict suffering and pain so as to secure information.
Not great with common sense are you.
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276. At 8:03pm on 24 Apr 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Couch Potato
"If we start torturing people, we have NO RIGHT to complain if other countries start torturing Our own personel. That is Why we should NOT BE trying to come up with legal justifications for torture."
"I've heard that canard from soft headed liberals from time immemorial but the world doesn't work that way. The bad guys we fight will torture captive Americans no matter what we or they sign up to. Do you think al Qaeda would stop torturing Americans? Did you see the video of their beheading of the WSJ reporter in Pakistan. It wasn't some clean axeman who cut his head off with one stroke, the terrorists sawed it off slowly."
The men in Abu Ghraib were not beaten to death slowly. Of course they might have been innocent, but he was swarthy and an arab so what more justification was needed.
"Perhaps if we hung their severed heads out in public, would be terrorists would think twice before joining up. Does that thought revolt you, boggle your sensibilities. Good, then that is one more good reason to do it."
AS long as your nice white delicate head was one of them I would very very reluctantly have to agree!
Sorry but there it is.
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273. At 6:22pm on 24 Apr 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Jack and Jill went up A_Hill
They had no choice. It was that or the entire nation would have been enslaved. All further resistance would have met with the kind of brutality the Nazis were famous for...which wasn't all that different from the brutality the British Empire imposed on its colonial subjects for centuries. Only an American lifeline saved Britain at the last moment. Seems Britain still clings to those apron strings in its imagined one way "special relationship" we sometimes humor their delusions about."
Marcus Marcus, torture, hatred of semites, are you now saying you do not admire the nazis? You have so much in common.
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Simple Simon
"The men in Abu Ghraib were not beaten to death slowly. Of course they might have been innocent, but he was swarthy and an arab so what more justification was needed."
As I recall, the people killed at Abu Ghraib were killed by Saddam Hussein's thugs. The people who were "tortured" by Americans were merely humiliated. But there might be a few I don't remember hearing about.
"Perhaps if we hung their severed heads out in public, would be terrorists would think twice before joining up. Does that thought revolt you, boggle your sensibilities. Good, then that is one more good reason to do it."
That's something like what Vlad Tepes, Dracula did to deter the Turks from further attacks and he became Roumania's national hero. Evidently it worked.
"AS long as your nice white delicate head was one of them I would very very reluctantly have to agree!"
What gave you the idea that I'm white? Think, use that atrophied brain of yours for once in your life man. Why do you think I hate Europeans so much?
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america too big in itself to improve anything about it's self. but it will listen to torture techniques from anyone.
simon I'm not following this racist crap from truly mostly erroneous but I note this comment. I'm not bothered to read more about it but am going to comment on it.
Like MTTA does so often.
"Apparently female US soldioers must carry knives to protect themselves from their own side!"
Yes they should. there are sick numbers of rape and sexual harassment despite the armies best and sometime deplorable attempts.
Women in the military are routinely abused.
And some go to jail because they don't like it.
http://www.global-sisterhood-network.org/content/view/1664/76/
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Now MA is going to claim he is not white. or TT. this will be fun.
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SaintOne,
If you have no answer to the points raised by MarcusAureliusII, why comment? Insult is no substitute for debate.
Yes, I agree that nobody should be required to discuss all the evils of the world in one go, but the problem arises when people never criticize the extraordinary evil of countries like Sudan and Iran. It's almost as if there is an unwritten rule that it's unmentionable. Even "moderate" Egyptians shoot Sudanese refugees desperately trying to cross the border into Israel. And they shoot to kill. Any idea how many they have killed or any clue about the conditions in camps for Sudanese refugees where the Egyptians put down protests by killing the protesters? Any curiosity at all about these atrocities?
Simon21,
Your responses are getting weaker and weaker. Don't confuse quantity with quality of debate. It fools nobody. It also makes me less inclined to sift through the voluminous rubbish you write to try to find a debatable point or two. To copy and paste someone else's entire comment and then add one snide sentence below it does not constitute debate.
You did manage to make some coherent points about Sudanese Arabs and Africans. But the fact of black Africans being co-opted by the Khartoum government into killing their fellow Africans proves nothing except the cunning of that government. There is genocide taking place in Sudan. It is race-based Arab on black genocide. If people are unaware of this it is mostly because the media carefully hides it. The BBC is especially complicit in this regard.
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283. MarcusAureliusII,
I don't recall hearing that the Americans killed anyone at Abu Graib. I guess the people discussing torture and bashing America here would prefer to have their heads slowly sawed off rather than be sexually humiliated or threatened with a guard dog.
283. MarcusAureliusII,
That's Simon21 proving his racism for the 100th time. He thinks that anyone who disagrees with him from the right is white. Actually it could be that he is one of these subversive whites who hates his own race.
285. happylaze wrote:
Now MA is going to claim he is not white. or TT.
You mean you have finally found your way through the fog and got it through your head that I am not MarcusAureliusII and he is not me? Or are you still wrapped up in that fantasy?
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#153 "The US faced with mortal threats from Iran, North Korea, al Qaeda, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and possibly Iraq"
And Wales.
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287. At 9:57pm on 24 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
283. MarcusAureliusII,
I don't recall hearing that the Americans killed anyone at Abu Graib."
No they took photos.
Just shows how hopelessly out of touch you are and why you should not really bother commenting.
"I guess the people discussing torture and bashing America here would prefer to have their heads slowly sawed off rather than be sexually humiliated or threatened with a guard dog."
Or maybe they would prefer there to be no torture?
"283. MarcusAureliusII,
That's Simon21 proving his racism for the 100th time. He thinks that anyone who disagrees with him from the right is white. Actually it could be that he is one of these subversive whites who hates his own race."
What race are you dear? One of the Afrikaaner race perhaps?
One of the master race maybe like your hero and mentor?
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286. At 9:10pm on 24 Apr 2009, TrueToo wrote:
SaintOne,
If you have no answer to the points raised by MarcusAureliusII, why comment? Insult is no substitute for debate.
It is with you since you do not debate.
Cannot debate perhaps?
"Yes, I agree that nobody should be required to discuss all the evils of the world in one go, but the problem arises when people never criticize the extraordinary evil of countries like Sudan and Iran. It's almost as if there is an unwritten rule that it's unmentionable. Even "moderate" Egyptians shoot Sudanese refugees desperately trying to cross the border into Israel. And they shoot to kill. Any idea how many they have killed or any clue about the conditions in camps for Sudanese refugees where the Egyptians put down protests by killing the protesters? Any curiosity at all about these atrocities?"
Hardly compare to killing schoolchildren and occupying 4 million people - there is teh real evil
Aren't Sudanese "dark hued" to use your filthy words?
"Simon21,
Your responses are getting weaker and weaker. Don't confuse quantity with quality of debate. It fools nobody. It also makes me less inclined to sift through the voluminous rubbish you write to try to find a debatable point or two. To copy and paste someone else's entire comment and then add one snide sentence below it does not constitute debate."
I demolish your points in one sentce, why not show the rubbish of your mind in full flow.
When you ever make a cohrent point then it might be worth debating.
"You did manage to make some coherent points about Sudanese Arabs and Africans. But the fact of black Africans being co-opted by the Khartoum government into killing their fellow Africans proves nothing except the cunning of that government."
And the fact that Marcus's idiotic and racist point was wrong.
Rascists always are.
Good to see you accept it
"There is genocide taking place in Sudan. It is race-based Arab on black genocide. If people are unaware of this it is mostly because the media carefully hides it. The BBC is especially complicit in this regard."
You have just admitted this not to be the case.
You can't even make a consistent point in two paragraphs my yarpie friend.
DOn't ever try arguing in court. You would end up confessing to the crime while thinking you wre denying it.
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283. At 9:02pm on 24 Apr 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Simple Simon
"The men in Abu Ghraib were not beaten to death slowly. Of course they might have been innocent, but he was swarthy and an arab so what more justification was needed."
"As I recall, the people killed at Abu Ghraib were killed by Saddam Hussein's thugs."
Did these include the grining grunts from the US? The one's in the photos.
"The people who were "tortured" by Americans were merely humiliated. But there might be a few I don't remember hearing about. "
Beaten to death=humiliated. Hmmm do you speak english as a first (third) language?
Or are you just too stupid for words.
Let's hope no one ever "humiliates" you eh?
(That's something like what Vlad Tepes, Dracula did to deter the Turks from further attacks and he became Roumania's national hero. Evidently it worked. )
Did it? I thought Turkey conquered Roumania? The Roumanians, Turks and everyone else with half a brain thinks so too.
Or is that what you mean in your ludicrous misuse of English?
It is difficult to tell with you since you seem to argue against yourself.
"AS long as your nice white delicate head was one of them I would very very reluctantly have to agree!"
"What gave you the idea that I'm white? Think, use that atrophied brain of yours for once in your life man. Why do you think I hate Europeans so much"
Can't work out the logic here marky. You harte europeans because you are white.
You hate them because you are non white?
Non-white people hate europeans? Including Non-white Europeans?
Sorry Marcus the expalanti0on is quite simple it is because whatever your colour, you are ignorant and stupid Marcus. Everyone knows that.
Next question
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288. At 10:42pm on 24 Apr 2009, HabitualHero wrote:
#153 "The US faced with mortal threats from Iran, North Korea, al Qaeda, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and possibly Iraq"
And Wales
And Peru
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Simpld Simon
I know you hate it when the good guys win. Starting with Yorktown and ending more recently in places like Fallujah. And the beat goes on. Has it ever occurred to you that the world is exactly the way it is supposed to be? the UK reduced to an isolated Isle that's been sceptered through and through, a plessed blot. France...well, what can anyone say...en greve :-) and your Pali pals...hanging by the slenderedest of threads with Benny holding the scissors? Oooooh how HillBillery must hate that man. He won, she lost. As I said, just the way it is supposed to be. America still has a lot more kick-arse ahead of it...and you know where too. Soon it will be time for Osama Obama to get down to brass tacks.
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#280 Simon21,
Does any torture cause pain to another according to your weird view? Or is all pain just speculation.
Torture implies severe pain and suffering. It's not my weird view or definition and I do not condone its use. However, I have no problem dealing harshly with terrorists, who darb civilian clothes and commit mass murder against innocent people, in obtaining information that will save lives.
If you are going to prosecute someone for torture, you need actual evidence which rises to the level of what is defined as torture, as defined by international law dealing with torture. Perhaps if you read up on the topic you would have a more informed opinion, instead of simpleton ad hominem one-liners.
For example;
If the conditions pertaining to torture are not me per Article 1, it seems possible that an argument can be made under Article 16. However, the definition of what is considered cruel punishment is also open to legal debate.
CONVENTION AGAINST TORTURE
and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading
Treatment or Punishment
Article 1:
For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person....
Article 16:
Each State Party shall undertake to prevent in any territory under its jurisdiction other acts of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment which do not amount to torture as defined in article 1...
Clearly, international law implies a scale as to what behavior can be considered as cruel vs torture. Apparently, it has nothing to do with common sense, at least, not yours.
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However, I have no problem dealing harshly with terrorists, who darb civilian clothes and commit mass murder against innocent people, in obtaining information that will save lives.
But if they wear a uniform and rely on 60 million dollars worth of equipment to kill the same number of people OK.
logical ain't it.
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287 yea you are.
and you argue with yourself.
hmm.
Well I absolve my self of the sin of calling you guys names so we are both mad.
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294. At 00:16am on 25 Apr 2009, rodidog wrote:
"Clearly, international law implies a scale as to what behavior can be considered as cruel vs torture."
No it doesn't.
The crime is the intent not the degree. The degree is for a court to decide when it comes to sentencing. The articles are not meant to be read separately; you don't allow 'wiggle room' as in, "I didn't really hurt the prisoner, just degraded him."
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Why doubt a Bush official may have, at one point, suggested torture isn't legal? Moreover why doubt it was covered up? Most importantly why is it every time the words conspiracy and American politics are in the same sentence people laugh and say it's far fetched or fictional? I find those comments usually come from the ones who remain deeply entrenched in their views that their country is too good for that. Many crimes have been committed by the government without the publics knowledge for many years. To say that their are many things we don't know about or are only learning about now is far more sane than dismissing it. Cover-ups happen in modern Western governments, it's been like this for a very long time.
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285. At 9:08pm on 24 Apr 2009, happylaze wrote:
Now MA is going to claim he is not white.
'Course he isn't. Must be puce, mostly. People who hate that much usually go a funny colour. He'll likely accuse us of being racist every time we disagree with him now. (The 'darker-hued' thingy seems to have lit up some funny corners of the psyche here and there, doesn't it?)
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Any "American" that supports or defends torturing their helpless victim should be classified as sick mental individuals and should be confined to mental institutions. If there are dimmed harmful to peace and justice, they should be put away permanently. The torturers that are found to be quite sane at the time these international war crimes were happening should be hanged. The world is far better without them.
The USA should be held accountable in the world court of law for allowing it's former president, vice president, secretary of States, and it's defense chief for allowing these horrific crimes to occur and also encouraged.
Even if justice is served by high international courts, the USA will still have a stain on it's flag which are no different than those Nazis who were hanged for the same war crimes. The fact that the US lived under a brutal fascist dictator for eight long years must corrected.
"America" must atone for it's horrific international crimes. The Nationalist socialist order it embraced by the former administration must be stamped out forever.
The present president (Obama) has an obligation to the American people to allow the investigations on these crimes to go on and allow the proper punishment for these horrific international war crimes. There must be no double standards in justice. He must not be allowed to become accessories to these international crimes against humanity.
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#297 british-ish,
If you read Article 16, it states: Each State Party shall undertake to prevent in any territory under its jurisdiction other acts of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment which do not amount to torture as defined in article 1, ....
That reads like there's a difference between torture and cruel or degrading treatment.
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TT,
- "The Israelis - the ones you love to hate - are humanitarian enough to take in desperate Sudanese Africans - Muslims fleeing genocide by their Arab Muslim brothers. There are now four thousand of them in Israel. But don't complain about Sudan (also extremely relevant to this blog) just carry on bashing the Israelis. But don't talk about hypocrisy."
No, Don't talk about hypocrisy or double standards...Salaam, etc.
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302 EXCELLENT post there ED.;)
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299 I think I've done all the flushing I need. Thanks for being persistent enough to read back through His/his old posts.
Dan in Blackwell.
Good question on the why does everyone dismiss america as being any possible source of conspiracy.
Same people say legalising pot is a waste of time and not to talk about it.
Head in sanders.
OH Hes.
those 4000 refugees that Israel has.they were not welcomed at first.
Pressure from the left in Israel forced the Gov to take them in.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5155370.stm
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299 He still has not answered.I will ask directly.
MATT what is your nationality.
Lying to induce anger and hatred is not really OK.
It is psychotic.
Not very smart.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Heloise - A very distressing article. When I read or hear something like that I try to picture myself in the situation. All that comes to mind: I'd be freaking out and would have an overwhelming desire to kill someone!! (Maybe literally - I don't know!) I would be focusing on myself and my family, not what did or did not happen 5000 or 50 years ago!
happy - I had not heard of the 4000 refugees (mentioned numerous times!). Your link talks about a few hundred (another 2000) but when I googled for more into, most were articles about Israel bombing Sudanese convoys (with perhaps arms for Gaza). So....
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time . originally the Israelis were not even letting these refugees in but an Israeli court (I believe) said that was illegal.
so reluctantly by the admin there they started letting them in.
(though to be honest not many countries seem to be too keen on refugees coming to their country and america is right up there on that. not even allowing families of their staff in Iraq Visa's)
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happy - The article says they will accept 500! I cannot find a number for Sudanese refugees to Canada but Sudan is # 5 on our resettlement list (2006). Afghanistan # 1 - Iraq # 10. A friend of mine was an American Immigration lawyer in the US. He had a thriving business up until 9/11. He has since changed occupations!
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Two terrorist's States America and Israel where war crimes and the murder of women and children are just an accident or collateral damage ,next time a bomb goes of in Israel remember that term collateral damage or an accident .
All you red neck's are the same can't read past your Tabloids. Oh' and Justin Webb
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Follow this or go directly To a devastating bit from Faux News (of all sources!)
Peace and abiding by laws
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