Is Obama drifting?
I knew Jimmy Carter. Jimmy Carter was a friend of mine (well I watched him on the telly); and Sir, Barack: you are no Jimmy Carter.
But are you Leo X?
A good example of the problems aflicting the new administration (actually better than Ms Paglia's I think): this fellow looked from his photo to be an unexciting choice as President Obama's head of the National Intelligence Council.
Far from it: the reaction when he pulled out on Tuesday makes that clear. Whether he was the right man or not is way above my pay grade, but the failure to notice that he was a tad controversial and/or the failure to back the guy once the going got tough really does seem to be a sign of incoherence and drift at the heart of the administration. This is, after all, a key post.
Now they are looking for someone else and the clock is ticking and the Iranians spinning and al Qaeda plotting.
And there are those who are suggesting that the administration could have won the argument, if it had only tried.
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The short answer is : yes
the larger answer is that we told you so. This is a man with no credentials who is way over his head.
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"Now they are looking for someone else and the clock is ticking and the Iranians spinning and al Qaeda plotting."
That's a little too dramatic. The National Intelligence Council position reports to the Director of National Intelligence, and that position is filled (Adm. Dennis Blair). These are advisory positions (to the President, National Security Council, and the Homeland Security Council) which have only been around since 2005. The FBI, CIA and the various military intelligence branches are on the job. They're the country's primary intelligence gathering entities.
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That's better - all that stem cell stuff is just a sideshow. Watch Geithner, Summers and Bernanke going round in circles. It's the economy, etc.
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Wow, Justin steps out of his comfort zone slamming the religious right and offers up a little bit of criticism of the Obama administration! What a turn up, and a welcome change from the borderline creepy coverage from his colleagues. Kevin Connolly's article about the first 50 days of the presidency would make Kim Jong-il blush, and the latest hyper-partisan diary from Matt Frei about the superheroes in the White House (only Master Storytellerman can save us!) is almost beyond parody. Meanwhile the BBC America blog vents outrage at those who dare to criticise the new president, and The First Hundred Days online chronicle exhibits levels of gushing that would embarrass Hello magazine.
Verdict on the first 50 days? A shameful, cringing effort by the BBC.
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"But are you Leo X?"
No, I would say more like mixture of Blessed Gregory X and Pope Gregory XV with dash of Damasus II and just a smidgen of Sylvester II.
Some people might suggest a little of Adrian IV, but I think we all know what they're smoking.
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You would judge a man by his photograph? A substantive reason to object to his choice for this position is his lack of objectivity, tilting toward China as regards its relations with its minority groups, particularly Tibetans.
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In all the rapturous coverage of Himself being swept into office on the wings of the angels, only a few of us kept asking: 'Given this guy's very thin record, is He competent to take on this job?' The response was to call anyone who might raise this question a racist, a bigot, unworthy of speaking in the public square.
He is not competent, He is not honest, and we have almost four more years to go.
Today, He railed against pork-barrel earmarks to the press, and retired to sign a bill(in private)--more than $400 billion in pure pork. The hypocrisy and incompetence are on display for all to see.
Speaking of Jimmy Carter: In my mis-spent youth, I worked in Mexico. I came to work one morning, and noticed my Mexican friends were not meeting my eyes. Finally, one of them produced a newspaper front page with the tragic picture of the burned helicopters in the Iranian desert. There was sorrow in his eyes as he asked: 'Who is this Jimmy Carter guy?' I couldn't give him an adequate answer. I was sickened, and words failed to form.
Who is this Barack Obama guy? Why does he daily say one thing and do another?
And, another story to cover: Timothy Geitner is working in a significantly understaffed office in Treasury. Seems he can't recruit people to work for him.
Wonder why?
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Nobody's answering the phone at Treasury!
http://tinyurl.com/cop2ro
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All: I'm saddened by this, but not surprised. Look at the approval of the tax-evaders, and the lack of vetting of candidates.
I'm not jumping Obama's case alone, either. He couldn't get that approval by himself--it took a majority of 100 other folks who are supposed to be upholding the Constitution. Did they do that? Well, nope.
After all this, does anyone need to know any more?
Lack of maturity, lack of discipline, lack of integrity. Seems like common themes since 1992 (Clinton) right up through 2009. The donkey and the elephant aren't much different in their inability to deliver competent people of integrity and maturity.
Our best approach now is to figure out how to engage these folks and figure out how to (a) hold their feet to the fire and (b) encourage them to be those people of maturity, integrity, and discipline. Perhaps we get to start with those folks in the mirror...
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There is, clearly, something very wrong with the nomination process of the Obama Administration, but I doubt delays in filling this post will lead to Armaghedon. Contrary to popular opinion, the Federal government is an effective organization that does not depend on one person to function.
The positions that must be filled with highly qualified individuals, when it comes to national security are the heads of the CIA, NSC, and NSA.
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Justin:
President Obama is starting to drift....
-Dennis Junior
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#7 Old South: "Who is this Barack Obama guy? Why does he daily say one thing and do another?"
The Alinsky disciple/the community-organizer-turned-POTUS/POTUS-tirned-community-organizer:
"The first step in community organization is community disorganization. The disruption of the present organization is the first step toward community organization. Present arrangements must be disorganized if they are to be displace by new patterns.... All change means disorganization of the old and organization of the new."
"An organizer must stir up dissatisfaction and discontent... He must create a mechanism that can drain off the underlying guilt for having accepted the previous situation for so long a time. Out of this mechanism, a new community organization arises....
"The job then is getting the people to move, to act, to participate; in short, to develop and harness the necessary power to effectively conflict with the prevailing patterns and change them. When those prominent in the status quo turn and label you an 'agitator' they are completely correct, for that is, in one word, your function—to agitate to the point of conflict."
"Process tells us how. Purpose tells us why. But in reality, it is academic to draw a line between them, they are part of a continuum.... Process is really purpose."
(Saul Alinsky, Rules For Radicals)
Sounds familiar? As for the first 50 days, "'Tis madness yet there is method in it": the Cloward-Piven Strategy of manufactured crisis, an elevated version:
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/2183968/posts
http://www.oilforimmigration.org/facts/?p=602
A (manufactured) crisis should never be wasted.
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Ref. 7
"He railed against pork-barrel earmarks to the press, and retired to sign a bill(in private)--more than $400 billion in pure pork."
No, he didn't. Even his harshest critics put the amount of earmarks at eight billion. The rest of the bill is a standard spending package to keep the federal government running through September. He acknowledged that it wasn't perfect. It was also the last congress' bill (written before January 20th).
"..the tragic picture of the burned helicopters..."
The military was clearly at fault. The plan was reasonable. It was just poorly executed. Granted they had a good bit of bad luck. During the withdrawal, one of the helicopter pilots flew into a military transport. It was an aviation accident.
I remember it well. It confirmed the belief I held at the time that the U.S. military was utterly incompetent. In my defense I was a teenager, and the only military I had known up to that point was the one fought and lost in Vietnam.
[I find the capitalized 'h' in "He" borders on poor taste.]
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Ref. 9
"After all this, does anyone need to know any more? "
I do. First, why are you letting the 435 representatives off the hook? Second, what exactly are those constitutional violations you're talking about?
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I don't see the President as starting to drift, but I do see some problems with the selection of political appointees. Each has to submit exhaustive questionnaires to vet them on anything and everything possible to be held against them in the confirmation or clearance processes. I can only surmise that someone isn't bothering to read these thoroughly at all.
Or, perhaps, they're moving too, too fast, and not doing basic checks by the FBI before leaping to the announcement.
On the Charles Freeman controversy at NIC- this was not a position requiring Congressional confirmation, but advisory only. There are some who surmise that this was very definitely due to the efforts of the pro-Israeli lobby to taint him as being biased against that state, when his only offense might have been merely just not agreeing with the Israel-at-all-costs point of view.
try walt.foreignpolicy.com/2009/03/11/on_chas_freemans_withdrawal.
I'm not sure what to think, but since both sides are crying foul, politics seems to be the rub...
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12
Non sequitur.
Which is it? We go from the President being completely unqualified and totally incompetent, to being a cunning, mastermind Machiavelli whose skill in manipulating public sentiment is unequaled.
Well, which is it? He can't be Gomer Pyle and the Antichrist (or Lenin, Jr.) all in one.
If he's so incompetent, how did he win the White House?
If he's so cunning and devious and manipulative, how then is it so easy for you to see behind the mask? His failures are really sacrifices on the bigger chessboard?
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Knock, knock, knock! If Christ were to have been president he would have been adversely criticised by the same familiar faces. It's bad enough that Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter are sticking in their knives, but I would have hoped that Justin and the BBC would have a more measured view. The former writes "Jimmy Carter was a friend of mine (well I watched him on the telly)", a statement which I very much doubt since he was only sixteen when President Carter took office.
October cannot come soon enough.
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Camille Paglia, a devotee of Harold Bloom, is a bit past it.
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PS--I assume Justin simply followed the RealRightSpunPolitics link to Paglia. He will soon go to the UK to present Today.
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Thank Heavens Obama is not Jimmy Carter Redux!!!!
But we are just uncovering what the Windy City allowed to progress through their ranks before blowing him on the National Scene. More like Clinton, who could not shake the baggage of the DNC after "getting there". Ed Koch had a better track record of nominating qualified people...
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As the Chinese say "may you live in interesting times "
We do not know who Mr Obama is yet regarding his ability to rise to the occasion we are finding ourselves in , but these are interesting times.
There is a great deal of damage to be undone and its going to take the efforts of many not just one man, one nation or one hemisphere
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Americans are not as familiar with many of the leaders that you have given as possible comparisons to Pres. Obama, but I understand where you are coming from. I know it is still too early to tell just how things will turn out, but the way things are headed, it appears that Pres. Obama might more accurately be compared to Pres. Warren G. Harding. The preliminary comparisons of the two Presidents' campaigns, cabinet problems, and economic troubles are startling.
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Jimmy Carter was truly and honest man or at least as honest one for being a politicain. Our current leadership is the king of politically correctness. If you notice his approval numbers are starting to drop, the republiciains are starting to recover from their humilating loss in the senate. Mid terms are coming up in 2010 and then we will see if balance has returned to the american scene.
If GWB was so incompetent how come he beat the democrats twice. The answer is that he had compentent people behind him and his faher. The Obama administration has seen the greatest decline in the stock market since Herbert Hoover. Lets hope the Republic survives his administration and leadership of the House. While I don't agree with Rush or the other right wingers, I do agree with Bill O'Rielly. Put that one in your pipe and puff on it for awhile.
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The Presidency is a big job. Obama is being as careful as possible to herd the massive problems he inherited in a correct direction. If you are actually interested in adult, well reasoned workable solutions, that takes time. If you want knee-jerk guidance like we had for the past 8 years move to Crawford Texas. Obama has made a good start. He looks to be trying to tilt the playing field back towards level. I can understand a little angst if you are no longer allowed to rape and pillage like under W, but if you are making less than $500K a year you are most certainly fighting against the wrong team. When was the last $5000 a plate GOP function you went to? Never? Then you do not even qualify as a "real" party member; you are just so much chaff to the GOP. Maybe you need to rethink which party is legislating in your best interest. I know MY life has not benefited positively from Exxon/Cheney/Limbaugh/Rove running the country for 8 years. I didn't vote for them. Did you? The wealthiest 2% do not need your help - YOU need to help yourself.
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For those interested in the various presidential "First Hundred Days" go to the White House Transition Project and scroll down to New Institutional Data - Presidential Work During the First 100 Days for a PDF of comparisons. President Obama seems to be up to par by comparison/
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#23. amerika_first: "The Obama administration has seen the greatest decline in the stock market since Herbert Hoover."
So you think the financial problems started on January 20th? The current recession started during the previous presidency, not with the present incumbent of The White House. We are only now reaping the "rewards" of eight disastrous years. How long did it take FDR to reverse the problems he inherited? Far longer than fifty days!
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Is Obama drifting?
Justin Webb 11 Mar 09, 09:01 PM GMT I knew Jimmy Carter. Jimmy Carter was a friend of mine (well I watched him on the telly); and Sir, Barack: you are no Jimmy Carter.
But are you Leo X?
Here's why.
A good example of the problems aflicting the new administration (acutally better than Ms Paglia's I think: this fellow looked from his photo to be an unexciting choice as President Obama's head of the National Intelligence Council."
I think if you want to be considered seriously Justin you should not quote people like Paglia.
She has long been seen as a bag of self important wind and no one takes her seriously.
One wonders if Aipac and the other Israeli appeaseers realise how much damage they do their cause by constantly overplaying their hand.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Well, I think Fallows probably has the right (left?) of it . . .
But Obama's advisers do seem to hurry to abandon boats the second they see a tiny leak.
What are they so afraid of? Rush Limbaugh? At this rate, half of Obama's cabinet is going to end up being recruited from the Neocons again . . .
And in the meantime there is this little matter of the economy and the banks; vagueofgodalming is right: much running around chicken-like while, it seems to me, politicians whose policies the last eight years should have discredited (or other countries' actions should now be discrediting) are left unchallenged.
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President Obama is just a naive individual whose beliefs in what he says influences those just as naive as him. Government created the economic downturn.
The reasons are quite obvious, to enrich the government and subdue the minds of the people. I may have to live in this country but I don't have to delude my conscious with false security and false ideas about the real world.
I am just as afraid of the government more so than I am of those they pronounce their enemies. The government in which one resides has the greatest influence on the knowledge base that creates a country's social structure, animating the thoughts and actions of the people.
The propaganda abuses of each citizens government has destroyed the honest effort and reasons for even a simple internet search engine. With this one concept in mind it is imperative for one to understand the magnitude of knowledge's abuse.
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17. At 02:10am on 12 Mar 2009, David_Cunard wrote:
'Jimmy Carter was a friend of mine (well I watched him on the telly)", a statement which I very much doubt since he was only sixteen when President Carter took office.'
Didn't know you had to be over 16 before you were allowed to watch telly in Britain, then.
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@ 14: Andy, what I was referring to for both comments was the Senate confirming Obama's tax-flawed nominee. For senators to confirm someone who knowingly failed to pay their taxes says to me at least that they are no longer taking their oaths seriously. Others may judge differently.
By no means do I let the H of R off the hook; it's just that in this particular case they have no role (the H of R doesn't confirm Executive Branch appointees).
I have said repeatedly here that we need to focus implacable attention on the Congress, and put them in the equivalent of the refiner's fire (to heat them to white heat and burn the dross out). I still believe that. The worst President can be held firmly in check by a Congress that is doing its job correctly, but the best President can't make up for a corrupt or incompetent Congress.
Regards to all.
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Ref 23, Amerika
"The Obama administration has seen the greatest decline in the stock market since Herbert Hoover."
You may want to do a bit of research before making statements like this or you risk making a fool of yourself. The DJI peaked at 14,000 in July 2007, and was in rapid decline long before Inaguration day when it was around 8,000. Suggesting the Obama Administration is responsible for the stock market woes is a classical Republican maneuver to deflect attention from their failures. Unfortunately, some people still buy their deceitful tactics and continue to call for the failed policies that led to the calamities we are now enduring.
Are you planning to give President Obama credit for upward market fluctuations when they take place?
Most importantly, if President Obama is responsible for the mess he inherited because he has not been able to turn it around in six weeks, does that mean President Bush is responsible for 9/11? After all, he had been in office 8 months when that event took place. I know he is a slow learner, but do you find that an acceptable excuse for his unacceptable behavior?
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The power of AIPAC
And, Freeman on AIPACMods please note: a direct quote from a public speechIn sadness, Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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Obama is a wimp!
Check your Pulse
Peace and patience
ed
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"Change" for the worse...
Obama chose the Saudi-owned Al-Arabiya Arabic satellite TV network for his first formal television interview as president. Hmmm, the president of United States didn't find any American TV channel for his first interview???
And now trying to appoint and anti-Israeli Intelligence chief???
We'll be adding a few more in the coming days...
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Perhaps there is no one in DC or government or with corporate experience who isn't a crook - doubt many of the senators reviewing the nominees' qualifications could honestly fill out the Obama vetting form and qualify. Obama's admin set unusually high disclosure requirements - maybe its the rest of US that is drifting.
I was just thinking to myself the other day, when Obama announced positions on education reform, how many fronts he is initiating in light of the crises he faces - he's plowing through his campaign promises pretty thoroughly. Remember he can only suggest, it is congress that must write the laws.
He's not Carter, or Clinton, Harding, or FDR -or mad King George - this one will have his own page.
The negative spin we're getting is colorful but I can't see the purpose - it must be in hopes to get some republicans in congress next go-round, but lordy you would think that at this point our honorable representatives in DC would put aside petty sniping for at least 90 days and try to solve some of the S**t that's going down - I see glee and delight in these predictions that national security could be at risk - sick - if one thinks that's the case, from any party, then help find someone to fix it. You never think its going to be your child or brother who gets hit until it happens.
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23, america_first -
I'm so glad you mentioned that you agree with Bill O'Reilly. Given that he is an ignorant, astoundingly egotistical gasbag, I now know that I can skip your posts and scroll down to ones whose writers do not rely on the pitiful pontifications of pointless pundits for their opinions.
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#34 Ed
Thanks for the links.
I agree with Freeman. I'm amazed a powerful country like the US allows itself to be controlled by a lobby group representing the interests of another foreign country. Moreover, the fact that AIPAC has supporters high up in the American corridors of power borders on treason IMO!
In the past, and if it was Britain, they would have strung up members of this lobby group in a public place for all to see as a warning to others who wish to follow orders from a foreign power and not from their own State.
Doesn't the US still use the death penalty for treason?
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ref #34 and #36
I think the objection to Freeman was the money he recieved from the Saudi's.
Ed why do you have a problem with the friendship that America has with a great country like Israel?
It is one of the most progressive nations in the world. And has shown restraint in dealing with the intolerant and war criminaly minded Palestinians and Lebanese
Althugh I don't agree with Obama overly humble foriegn policy I can understand going on Al Arabyia.
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To#17 Davidcunard
I do believe that you find my posts irritating but your post at #17 was most excellent!
Good wishes and peace to you.
I am finished here(on this thread.)
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EnochJoshua,
So anyone not agreeable to AIPAC is "anti-Israel"?Typical!
Peace and Perspective
ed
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It's difficult to truly say that he is drifting. Perhaps he was never intending to do the things that he promised anyway![Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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Nothing from nothing equals nothing . The Liberal Press shielded this guy , from the beginning, and all through the election and afterwards.... He has no record as a Senator to speak of . He was absent more than he was present.. It was one big ride for him . There is so much clouding his past, that no one really knows what is true, and what's not.. This much is evident.. He is a modern day Pied Piper, and mesmerized 98% of the Black Mice, and most of the Liberal college female mice... He has no substance and nothing but rhetoric to offer. This said ; how would anyone know when he is drifting... He was going to bring change, and presented himself to be a strong individual who had his own agenda. Now that has all been proven wrong. He has let Madam Pelosi, and Harry Reid, along with Dodd, Frank, And Shumer, run his administration for him .. His picks for the cabinet are atrocious.. He has no sense of character in is picks... His aides also let him down. They never bother to vent these people. One after the other fall , before they can fire their first shot.. He is a mysterious phantom, whose mystery is slowly fading... People can't keep saying, give him a chance.. Everyone who has the simplest knowledge of American Political History knows, you can't cure a depression by spending money and raising taxes.. His campaign promises are forgotten already. One day he says this , and the next he violates his promise from the day before.. No Lobbyists, no earmarks, etc . and he drops those promises to his own advantage. Here is an early prediciton for you Mr. President. The said at first, Carter was our worst President, then they said Bush took his place... But even in this short time span, I'll predict that you will be not only the worst President America has ever had, but probably the World's worst leader. Nothing from nothing equals nothing....
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36
"And now trying to appoint and anti-Israeli Intelligence chief???"
Is it more acceptable that they are anti Palestinian then?
It seems to me that Mr webb would agree with you.
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"There is, clearly, something very wrong with the nomination process "
Yes the politicians are all crooks . but we have all known that for ages.
I just want the crook to not be a crock as well then we are crocked by a crook which is worse.
and that was the american history of recent years.
We changed Obama not the rest.
He seems to have more honesty than most.
Yes Ed dismal on Mid east, but so is our web host.
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old south
"Who is this Jimmy Carter guy?' I couldn't give him an adequate answer"
You never did get any smarter did you?
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17 DC on that we are agreed
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Ref. 32
To be honest I was hoping you could let me in on what the right (Limbaugh, etc.) thinks is constitutionally prohibited in the TARP. Rush usually makes a valid point (if not in my opinion a good one). I just don't know what it is this time. Perhaps that's not where you were coming from.
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"If GWB was so incompetent how come he beat the democrats twice. "
because He lied
or because the american people are....
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24. At 06:09am on 12 Mar 2009, Balanda86 wrote:
Lovely letter there.
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I mentioned in a previous posting Barak is at high risk of manipulation by advisors, owing to his inexperience. If you don't know what you're doing, you must rely on others. There's just no getting around it.
You might make up for that with savvy experience, knowing your way around the D.C. sharks, learning early on who to trust, who needs to be canned, etc. A savvy fellow will "grow into the office" as did Lincoln and Kennedy and eventually discover those he can trust.
He needs to grow a heck of a lot. Background doesn't look good for that, as he voted straight party line in the senate. No independent thinking, just behaved as a good boy and did what he was told.
As he is doing now.
The kid's gotta grow. For now, indications he may actually rise to the occasion and do that are not good.
We'll see.
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Next topic.
"why does the editor think that equal means playing along with the right."
Do we want october revolution or do we want it now
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Ed,
If you think right, then you have to support Red Indians and drive out Americans!
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dcellar (#39), treason? Please! There have been only a handful of persons convicted of treason in the history of the United States, and none was put to death.
Notable persons who have been put to death, such as the Rosenbergs, were convicted of espionage, not treason.
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#42, I strongly commend Ed's perspective link. Magic, read and learn!
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40: "It is one of the most progressive nations in the world."
Israel??? Progressive??? This is a country that has no civil marriage, where a man and a woman with different religions cannot marry one another, where even Jews must prove their pure Jewish lineage back several generations in order to get permission to marry from the old men in frock coats who control the civil laws, one of which has the taxpayers paying for separate buses for Orthodox women so that their husbands don't have to worry about their being looked at by other men.
Israel is progressive only if you compare it to Saudi Arabia.
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40 gherkin you ask ed
"Ed why do you have a problem with the friendship that America has with a great country like Israel?"
and the rest of it
well I don't know about Ed but I see nothing great about Isreal.
and duly note that two soldiers and two cops were killed in N Ireland and Britain has yet to put John out of house and home .
As Israel would have .
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Aqua from my POV your posts are never irritating.
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yukkapuck
well .
so you don't like him?
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#31. british-ish: "Didn't know you had to be over 16 before you were allowed to watch telly in Britain, then."
Who said anything about being allowed? Not I. I just don't think a 16 year-old would have been fascinated by what few pronouncements President Carter may have had transmitted on British television. For all I know he may have been a boarder at Sidcot (school) where TV might not have been readily available to view. It wasn't at my boarding school.
#41. aquarizonagal: "I do believe that you find my posts irritating but your post at #17 was most excellent!"
Thanks for the thanks and peace to you, too.
And thanks for adding "on this thread"; now I know what you mean!
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I find the name choice enoch (right wing racist twerp from the UK enoch powell (small letters for a small man)( though he hated commonwealth citizens).
and Joshua .
some how a strange mix,
( and no reflection on your writings, just word play and all that.)
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http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/feder021698.html
more on that powell
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For all the moaners about lack of experience/credentials, almost wish McCain/Palin had won to see what they and Joe the plumber would've come up with...headless chicken springs to mind.
Sad that there's a real Rush-like desire for failure rather than success under the new leader. Philosophical arguments about socialism and old -isms/-schisms in this day and age seem odd. Did the GOP expect simple market forces to pull them out of this one?
At least they've not got superman Gordo and quantitative easing to put up with...
There's more despair here in the UK than in the US...living off a glorious past...illusions of being the best; which means nobody can tell us anything or we haven't a willingness to learn from others; the archaic roadworks system we have, the educational mess, the creaky NHS with then-Blair's dreams of a wacky IT system that would solve all its ills...clients' databases all over the place...
"The notion that we could learn from others is absent, nothing is put in perspective. Instead, the certainty that we are the best at everything results in chauvinistic complacency. And the problem with complacency is it allows problems to creep up on you that should never be allowed to come up."
http://www.niemanwatchdog.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=ask_this.view&askthisid=179
Pity this guy had to go...but if anybody criticises you-know-who then you-know-what happens...tail wagging dog indeed.
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53ruralhills wrote:
"Barak is at high risk of manipulation by advisors, owing to his inexperience. If you don't know what you're doing, you must rely on others. There's just no getting around it."
Can we think of any other President that this might apply to?
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55. At 3:07pm on 12 Mar 2009, EnochJoshua wrote:
Ed,
If you think right, then you have to support Red Indians and drive out Americans!
------------------
this is a silly argument.
to some, but I'm fully with you.
But America tried to stop slaughtering the reservations a few years ago and do allow them to operate. though agreed they took so much away and gave so little back.
That still does not excuse Israel behaving as terrorists.
And good bye
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Enoch,
A contradiction in terms, I believe....Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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58 lol Bere.
well said.
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Ref 53, Rural
"If you don't know what you're doing, you must rely on others."
Most Presidents, and Ronald Reagan and Bush II in particular, relied heavily on their VPs, Cabinet members, and advisors to govern. Reagan, to his credit, assembled a well qualified and experienced team, Bush II surrounded himself with one of the greediest and most deceitful teams in the history of our country. Their successes and failures are due, to a large extent, on the advice they receive but, ultimately, the outcome of their policies depend largely on circumstances, external forces, and their ability to discern between good and bad advice.
Bush II was an intellectually challenged President easily manipulated by his VP and some Cabinet members, Barack Obama has demonstrated exceptional intellectual qualities, good judgment, and an ability to absorb information and handle multiple complex tasks simultaneously; all attributes that will reflect well on his administration.
Expressing doubt because he has not been able to solve all the problems he inherited during his first 50 days in office is pure partisanship, and suggesting that the withdrawal of a second tier bureaucrat is somehow symptomatic of a major flaw in the administration is absurd. Nomination reversals and withdrawals are not unusual, and it is better if they happen before the individual occupies the post than after they do damage to the country...like the Arabian horse aficionado who was put in charge of the Katrina recovery.
President Obama is doing fine and regardless of whether or not he is able to solve all the problems we are having, he should be given credit for trying to solve them.
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I'm pretty disappointed in Obama's lack of backbone in this.
The post that Freeman was picked for was not one of the senior Intelligence positions, but I understand an advisory position. Obama has missed a trick by not having the man who says the unsayable, and asks the unthinkable on his team.
I don't know to much about AIPAC and their influence, but if even a fraction of it is true, then the USA has serious issues to face internationally.
Why not upset the Israelis a bit - they everything else they want from the USA.
Trouble is now the more extreme parts of the Arab world could interpret this as "new face, but no change" and all the possible good that Obama could do in this area may be irreparably damaged (which of course is what Israel / Aipac want).
He has been unlucky (or unwise not to do more vetting) on alot of his team picks, but this one would have been real change.
Obama needs to make some strong moves, as his aura will fade quickly otherwise. The economy will take years to recover, but even his supporters seem to think he can wave a wand and make it all better.... and every little problem or glitch is just fuel for the right wing commentators.
50 day report card
"Barak should try to be more assertive"
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What's wrong with Al-Arabiya? Even Bush tried communicating with foreigners by going on their media outlets.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58026
Should the Prez bow to Fox only?
And why does an appointee have to be pro-a particular Middle East nation?
And certainly the Prez closest advisers are Axelrod and Rahm...so why suggest that he's anti-Israel?
Should all appointees be AIPAC approved?
Trying the argument from another perspective shows how absurd the whole thing is...if another group had protested because he was linked to an Israel think-tank, would the result have been the same?
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Ref 55 EnochJoshua
Don't worry about the Red Indians. We have casinos. We're taking their money from them before we send them packing`;-)
Maybe we'll teach the Palestinians how to run a craps table. Make heap big gambling addicts, not war!
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Stu (71), Exactly my fears,
And they're very used to having it their way.in sadness, Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
edShow some backbone!
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ref #57 and 58
The Huffington Post? a noted hate sight. Why don't you quote from the KKK or the John Birch Society?
Stop spreading your lies about how people have to get authority from religous authorities to be married.
That another lie from the proponents of "The articals of Zion)
By the way in Israel women can drive a car and consort with unmarried men.
Which they can't do in Saudi Arabia.
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Ed, happylaze,
no matter what you say, the land of Israel rightfully belongs to Israel (with 5000 years history) and Israel will thrive with or without America!
When Israel came back in 1948 all the middle-east countries tried to crush young Israel on day one but Israel won. Just think how small a country Israel was with no resources but Israel still won against so many fierce countries. All the middle-east countries were frustrated and I see the same frustration in you today!
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ref #74
From your perspective changes from the U.S is more pressure on Israel to give more concession.
When do the Palestinians and the Arab world starting making conessions?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
75: "By the way in Israel women can drive a car and consort with unmarried men.
Which they can't do in Saudi Arabia."
Exactly. Which is why, as I said, Israel is progressive only when compared to Saudi Arabia. Thank you for expanding on my point.
Don't know what your reference is to the Huffington Post. I rarely read it, mainly because the website is really bad. My statement comes from my own knowledge, from people I know who have also lived in Israel, and from creditable news sources.
It's a good thing Israeli women can consort with men, married or unmarried, since it's so damned hard to get married there. Of course, the Orthodox unmarried women don't consort at all. The old men in frock coats don't allow it.
It is interesting that anyone who criticizes any aspect of Israeli society is considered by you to be a racist or bigot. Many Israelis are opposed to the control the rabbis have over civil law. Israelis have left Israel in droves, one of the reasons being that stranglehold the rabbis have on civil society. Are they all racists and bigots?
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76. At 5:18pm on 12 Mar 2009, EnochJoshua wrote:
Ed, happylaze,
no matter what you say, the land of Israel rightfully belongs to Israel (with 5000 years history) and Israel will thrive with or without America!
When Israel came back in 1948 all the middle-east countries tried to crush young Israel on day one but Israel won. Just think how small a country Israel was with no resources but Israel still won against so many fierce countries. All the middle-east countries were frustrated and I see the same frustration in you today!
-----------------------------
You zealot
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78 lol
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71 74 agreed that it is a little spineless.
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Many years ago when I spent a semester studying in Jerusalem, my group lived in a dormitory on a hill outside the main area of the city. There were two ways we could walk down into the city, one through an Orthodox Jewish neighborhood, the other through an Arab neighborhood. Our group of American Jewish kids was instructed to go by way of the Arab neighborhood. Why? It was safe. Had we walked through the Orthodox neighborhood, we would have had stones thrown at us, or worse, because we girls wore shorts and similar "scandalous" clothing. Our hair was not covered. Our arms were bare.
Considering how things are today, I'm not too sure the Arab neighborhood would still be safe, but I know that the Jewish neighborhood would be just as dangerous today as it was all those years ago.
Progressive? Don't think so.
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ref #79
The link you suggested went to the Huffington Post.
I was only giving one example of Israel progressiveness.
When I see a criticsm that is tinged with political correctness or racism I would consider it.
But since you and others seem to think it is ok for Israel to be attacked by terrorists which is what the Palestinian and Lebanese goverment have or condone; what do you expect.
Back to Freeman if he was getting paid by china or India he would also be objectionable.
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Ref 76 EnochJoshua
Checked the maps. Israel did not exist until 1948 CE. There is a big cloud on the title. Seems as if the Arabs have a clearer title on the land. Even the descendants of the Turks and the Romans might still have some claims on the site; as well as many others far too numerous to list in this post.
All and all, Israel will have a tough time getting title insurance when they go for the mortgage.
Global warming is making some promising waterfront land available in polar Canada. The Canadians might be willing to sell Ellesmere Island at a reasonable price. Some title issues, but the right price can clear them.
I do agree that Israel should go it alone. The USA should stop all aid and support. The sooner, the better.
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Ref. 76
"...the land of Israel rightfully belongs to Israel (with 5000 years history) and Israel will thrive with or without America!"
The holy land has changed hands so many times that a lot of people could make similar claims. The argument that they were the occupants of their land for millenia certainly didn't pay off for Native Americans.
As far as Israel's survival without U.S. aid, that's very doubtful. It would thrive if it weren't under the constant threat of attack, but that threat exists, and for that reason Israel is required to maintain a large military, much larger than a country of its size can support.
That fact is that the assertion that Israel doesn't need the U.S. is dangerous, because if Americans start to believe that, we may start using military aid as a means of influencing Israel's behavior. As it is now, cutting off or restricting military aid to Israel is (still) unthinkable to the majority of Americans. That's good for Israel.
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Amusing that my #78 which containes only a direct quote from Majik's #75 has been referred, but #75 remains....
;o)
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27. Simon21: "One wonders if Aipac and the other Israeli appeaseers realise how much damage they do their cause by constantly overplaying their hand." - and respondents:
Jee - zus!! Do we have to get back to the Israel-Palestine question yet again? The same voices, the same arguments and not one step forward.
Magic, Ed and Happy Jack should just duke it out together.
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Ref. 39
"Moreover, the fact that AIPAC has supporters high up in the American corridors of power borders on treason IMO!"
Hyperbole?
Article 3, Section 3 of the U.S. Constitution:
"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."
Israel is not and has never been an enemy of the U.S. Also, Americans have the right to openly petition their government no matter what the cause.
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Perspective
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peaceed
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Majik,
But not if he was backed by AIPAC like his predecessors....Complain about this comment
84: "ref #79
The link you suggested went to the Huffington Post."
I never suggested a link. Look back and you will see. I never suggest links, alas, because I haven't the foggiest idea how to do that.
I do wish you would refrain from accusing people of things when you've got your facts all wrong.
You also say: "But since you and others seem to think it is ok for Israel to be attacked by terrorists which is what the Palestinian and Lebanese goverment have or condone; what do you expect."
You will not find a post of mine where I have ever said such a thing. Really, do you bother to take note of the writers of the posts you respond to? Or do you just lump all who would dare to disagree with you together into one bunch of racists and bigots? It's very childish.
Wait, I take that back. It's insulting to children.
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#86, 'That's good for Israel'. It isn't good for peace, it isn't good for the palestinians, it isn't good for the west (including the US), and in the long run it is not good for Israel. So what is it good for?
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David,
It happens to be rather on-topic. This thread is based upon Obama yielding to AIPAC pressure.Look before you leap
ed
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EnochJoshua
Found some more available property for a promising second start-up of Israel in a quieter neighborhood.
Bikini Atoll.
Nice location in the tropics. Current owners living out of area for purposes of health. (Willing to sell) Nice fixer-upper. Far from neighbors. Some lots already developed, but much open area for new development. Many posibilities for tourism. No Arabs, Lebonese, Jordanians, Egyptians, Syrians living nearby. Clear title available at right price.
The Ellesmere Island property is still available. Nice neighbors. They never play the stereo too loud; throw nice parties. Kosher take-out available.
Joe Six-pack Realities
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."
Israels blatent ignoring of the UN resolutions, It's refusal to behave in a civilised manner when it come to acting against terrorist threats ,has made america a target.
Treason
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When looking at Article III section 3 of the U.S. Constitution we may also want to read the advice Washington gave in his Farewell Address;
Fine words from a man only interested in the prosperity of our nation. Our "favored nation" status with Israel should be called into re-evaluation for what the USA has suffered because of our "pasionate attachment" to a war-like nation with an expansionist policy.
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88 DC . Justin raised the issue of Mr freeman.
a diplomat with some standing.
Someone dedicated to finding peace. And mocked him for not being Pretty enough.
freeman is getting flack because he dared to raise the issue of Israel behaving in a less than nobel manner.
Indeed there iis some reference to decisions being above Justins pay scale(Is that another back jab) to determin wether or not his drop was a good thing, and the reasons were singular.
Israel.
But the BBC is not allowed to say squat nasty (as opposed to unfortunately true) to them
But you probably agree.
?
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#89 Andy
My point, (which I didn't do very well ;-) I apologise) is that if these AIPAC supporters high up in the US hierarchy of power had to choose between their elected leader or Israel which side do they choose?
These people should support their country 100% - anything less is not good enough IMO. Why are they ambitious to hold the reins of power in US in the first place? Whose interests do they hold dear?
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93. At 6:53pm on 12 Mar 2009, seanspa wrote:
#86, 'That's good for Israel'. It isn't good for peace, it isn't good for the palestinians, it isn't good for the west (including the US), and in the long run it is not good for Israel. So what is it good for?
--------------------
To take that further.
Some Israelis and their supporters continually say Hamas do nothing to protect their own people and draw fire upon themselves. they are evil and should be wiped out.
Given your argument (which I agree with) it could be concluded that Israel Knows that it's actions will provoke more attacks and ferment the hostility that leads to attacks on the USA.And yet it carries on.
therefore it is treasonous (or rather it's operatives that claim american nationallity are treasonous.)
If palestinians support Hamas they are traitors to palesinian people.(r snail,rob,who was that recent one)
If americans support Aipac they are traitors to the american people.
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As to how unthinkable withdrawing aid is to americans
I suspect things are changing on that front.
And if Israel had allowed any press into their last slaughter they would have been even less impressed with Israel
If indeed the Media would pick up on this in the USA there would be a chance of that happening.
But americans don't care about anything till t hurts them, just as health care. and you it does seem have become fully american in your views.
;)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7940371.stm
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Great!!! Just great!! Now that Obama has caved (possibly on the most important cabanit posission of his administration,) he'll give in to the "lobiests and special interests" of which he is supposedly fighting and pick someone who'll tell him what he wants to hear like Bush's National Intellijence Coordinator did for Bush (which the last time it was done got us into an unwinnable illegal war,) and who'll do Isrial's bidding in the world!!! And worst of all? The arabs will go right on hating us as they always have and always will!!!
"Change we can believe in?" Not in foreign policy at least!!
Obama you spineless hypocrit!
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Rome Stu #71. . .
"I don't know to much about AIPAC and their influence, but if even a fraction of it is true, then the USA has serious issues to face internationally."
AGreed, but on the same tokon, do you honestly think that not one other western nation panders in the slightest to AIPAC's demands? Whether it be with sympothetic supporters in the higher eshalons of their governments or by some other means? I doubt that the US is the only one.
"Why not upset the Israelis a bit - they everything else they want from the USA. Trouble is now the more extreme parts of the Arab world could interpret this as "new face, but no change" and all the possible good that Obama could do in this area may be irreparably damaged (which of course is what Israel / Aipac want)."
I think this is a bit extreme. I don't necessarily think that Isrial is all that malis intended. But you are dead right on the possible irrepairable damage that can be inflicted on the more extreme parts of the Arab world!!
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arclightt #32. . .
"I have said repeatedly here that we need to focus implacable attention on the Congress, and put them in the equivalent of the refiner's fire (to heat them to white heat and burn the dross out). I still believe that. The worst President can be held firmly in check by a Congress that is doing its job correctly, but the best President can't make up for a corrupt or incompetent Congress."
Hear Hear!!!!
Is it any wonder why the public constitantly rate the congress significantly lower than the president no matter who's in the white house?
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#94. Ed Iglehart wrote:
"(Palestine/Israel) happens to be rather on-topic. This thread is based upon Obama yielding to AIPAC pressure."
Look before you leap.
No Ed, the topic is "Is Obama drifting?" - see the heading above - a much broader topic than you would have us believe; there's not one mention of AIPAC in any of the links Justin provides.
Read before you comment.
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Ref. 93
"'That's good for Israel'. It isn't good for peace, it isn't good for the palestinians, it isn't good for the west (including the US), and in the long run it is not good for Israel. So what is it good for?"
For keeping Israel alive. They don't face annihilation as long as they have American support.
I agree with your analysis otherwise.
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Charles W. Freeman was the best man to Head the Intellegence Committee. He was not selected due to the efforts of AIPAC and the Jewish Lobby, Which only goes to prove the tail is still wagging the dog.
I still have faith in President Obama as a man of ethics, but it is the people that HELPED HIM INTO OFFICE that are problematic. The American peopled voted for Mr. Obama to make changes in the Middle East, not just keep wrong headed one-sided Bush-Cheney diplomacy in place.
With the selection of Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State, I knew nothing would change in Isreal-Palestine because she is running in 2016 and need the same organization that put Obama himself in office.
I have long since come to know that the popular vote means nothing, ego George W. Bush in 2000, but to have been duped again is sad.
I have lost my faith in things every changing in the Middle East because there are no solutions.
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ref #102
Another bogus moral equivilency.
Hamas is a bunch of murderous thugs who gladly see their own people die to further thier agenda.
Israel is a friend to the U.S who stands on the frontline against Islamic terrorism.
It's pretty obvious that you would support Hitler's final solution or the death march in Cambodia to satisfy a favored ethnic group.
Fortunatly the U.S population as a whole is more enlightened.
You and Cindy Sheehan are free to live with Hamas
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40. At 1:57pm on 12 Mar 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #34 and #36
More predicitable drivel from the Dershovitz disciple
I think the objection to Freeman was the money he recieved from the Saudi's."
Oh was that it. Hmmm didn't Bush and most of the US get money from the Saudis?
"Ed why do you have a problem with the friendship that America has with a great country like Israel?"
Appeasement never works. We found that in 1939.
"It is one of the most progressive nations in the world."
Communist Russia and Nazi Germany described themselves the same.
They were wrong too. And has shown restraint in dealing with the intolerant and war criminaly minded Palestinians and Lebanese
Can you tell us why you think Semites have criminal minds?
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89. At 6:30pm on 12 Mar 2009, AndyPost wrote:
Ref. 39
"Moreover, the fact that AIPAC has supporters high up in the American corridors of power borders on treason IMO!"
Hyperbole?
Article 3, Section 3 of the U.S. Constitution:
"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."
Israel is not and has never been an enemy of the U.S. Also, Americans have the right to openly petition their government no matter what the cause."
That depends on how you define enemy does it not.
The Rosenbergs (both jews) were put to death on spurious charges of helping the USSR, yet the US and USSR were not in direct conflict.
Israel has spied on the US, killed US citizens, broken US laws on the use of its weapons (Israel admitted this).
It could be defined as hostile to US interests, which certainly are not served by commitment to one Middle Eastern ethnic group.
The point here is that the vast majority in the US care very little for Israel or the Middle East.
If a poll was taken asking US citizens should the US continue to give Israel billiions or spend that money in the US what would the answer be?
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Obama is certainly greatly preferable to GWB, and will certainly do better. However, as previous contributors have pointed out, that is no excuse for the astonishing hero-worship lavished on the president by BBC commentators and other journalists.
Amongst the acknowledged positives of Obama's character we have to set the fact that we know for certain that he is (in certain very material respects) stupid; bigoted, and dishonest.
Stupid: he claims to be in bilateral telepathic communication with a omniscient diety ('prayer');
bigoted: he has said in terms that he will not accord gay people equality (in marriage) because of his own religious convictions (ie. prejudices);
dishonest: he has reneged on an express promise to cancel the shameful and homophobic 'don't ask don't tell' policy of the US military. (The US is the only Western country in the world to openly discriminate thus against brave gay soldiers.)
If he consults his head instead of his bible, things might not turn out too bad; but in a fanatical theocracy there's little chance of that.
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We're arguing about the age of Israel now? That is way off topic, but if yall must...
In Ref. 85
Im sorry, publiusdetroit, but youre not entirely correct on that date. I presume the date you are referring to is the modern date after WWII. I think the 10th century BC, when King David organized the first united Kingdom of Israel, is more appropriate -He moved his capital from Hebron to Jerusalem. If by chance you are referring to the same time period that I am and just accidentally left off the "B" from BCE, then you might be referring to the Canaanites and the Philistines, not the Turks and the Romans. Sadly, both the Philistines and the Canaanites were wiped out-first by Israel, then by the Babylonians, so there isnt much of a blood line left that might connect them with modern day Palestinians.
It was the Eastern Roman Empire that finally did away with the Jewish state. Subsequently, the East fell to the Ottomans until WWI, and then the European powers until after WWII and the start of the Cold War.
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David, From Justin's fourth link:
Nothing about AIPAC or the Middle-East, eh? And Justin's final linkand following the "gist" linkSo no real connection to Israel and AIPAC, then.....Looking before leaping
ed
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As I said before the stock market has lost more then 25% of its value since the great messiah took over. He did not inherit that loss, rather he is primarily and solely responsible for this loss, greatest decline since Herbert Hoover. It is a misnomer that FDR took us out of the depression, rather it was Amerika's entry into WWII. Got the factories pumping, people back to work all in the name of national defense. Blame Bush all you want but after 6 months it is not becuase of GWB but rather of Barack Husein Obama making. Incompentcy and ineptness rolled up into one. The stock market and investors don't trust Obama, Treasury Secretary Turbo Tax Tim or Nancy P and Harry Reid. Maybe his name will go down in history, not spoken in similarities to Linclon, FDR, Truman, JFK or even Clinton. But rather in discussions of Harding, Hoover or even worse Johnson.
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Soon Amerika will be like the UK. Multi plural society, full of debt, no real wealth to speak of, able to be pushed around due to a weak and ineffective leader, terrorist running amock and afraid of its own shadow. Congrats we finally got the gov't Eurpoe has been hoping for, but not the Republic.
Oh one thing else in short supply of Depends, becuase all of our Congress are now wearing them.
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75 MK
Please, if you must accuse everyone else of Antisemitism, at least get your references correct. The faked document used to generate racial hatred against the Jews early last century was the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, not ""The articals (sic) of Zion)"
It is quite possible for many of us to dislike or despise another country's actions, and still recognize its right to exist. Stating that Israel is wrong for settling the West Bank, for instance, cannot possibly be interpreted except through the most stubborn deliberate misconstruction as believing that the Palestinians should use suicide bombs or RPGs or rockets.
Sad fact is, both sides are in the wrong, and both sides must commit to a halt to the madness before it can be resolved. It worked in Northern Ireland.
And there is nothing wrong with leaning on Israel if that's what it takes to bring them to the table, and stop making things worse. (And YES, we'd have to try to have some of the Arab states pressure the Palestinians to do the same.)
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99 publius
With all due respect to Pres. Washington, the world is vastly different from his day. We are, like it or not, all interconnected in so many different ways that we can't ever advocate going it alone. Instead, we should be extending our hands to keep advancing cooperation and peace.
Specifically regarding Israel, by all means, let's pressure them to the table, and force the issue. But we don't have to cut ties to do it. If by some miracle peace were ever achieved Israel would not need quite so much direct support, but could build up their own regional network of trade with their neighbors. In a hundred years, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, Egypt could be so interconnected that the thought of armed conflict would be laughable.
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#100. happylaze: "Justin raised the issue of Mr freeman."
But The Atlantic link focuses on the supposition that "he is too close to the Saudis." It was Simon21 at #27 who raised the issue, prompting Ed (#34), in one of his loud links, to follow up. And we know from all-too-many postings what Ed thinks about the subject.
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Ref 108 AndyPost
Israel would not have to be so paranoid about their existance if they learned to stop stealing their neighbors land, running their tanks over the lawns of their neighbors, play nice with the neighbor kids, etc.
If Israel would grow up and become a responsible world citizen then they could stand on their own, as EnochJoshua says they can; and be among the greatest nations, as MagicKirin keeps claiming Israel to be.
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They honeymoon ended after the first week. He made two decisions both of which are not yet cleared. Since then he is floundering in a heavy sea without liferaft water wings or a helping hand. He cant swim. He has made the most monumental disasterous choice in deciding to bail out bankrupt companies. If a company is bankrupt then so be it. For the tax payer to bail out (banks and car companies) is ridiculous. This borrowing will cost the next three generations. I live in Russia, and whilst it sure aint perfect, they tackled the financial down turn in a professional cohesive manner. Unlike Brown in the UK (and other Euro countries) and Obama, Russia decided an orderly withdrawal was the solution. Over a period of 15 weeks they devalued the Rubble on a fraction per day basis. The amount at the end was between 26 and 30%. Result, some products imported suffered, home products filled the demand, unemployment went up, but not in such a dramatic way as in the west. Borrowing was NEVER to solution. Obama will have his head up somewhere unpleasant for the rest of his stay - and that could be much shorter than he imagined - watch this space!
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#115. Ed Iglehart: "David, From Justin's fourth link:
"You?re going to hear a lot of hooey about how the ?Jewish lobby? scuttled an utter savant of diplomacy because of their slavish subservience to Israel and Israel?s interests. Don?t believe it. Chas Freeman is withdrawing because he, to the untrained observer, appears to be a wholly owned subsidiary of the Saudi government."
Nothing about AIPAC or the Middle-East, eh?"
Where exactly does it use the acronym AIPAC? Not even in the fourth link is it used, except by those who, like yourself, have made comments. I wrote that it was the Saudis with which others were concerned, and as usual, you bring up the matter of Palestine and Israel.
#116. amerika_first: "Blame Bush all you want but after 6 months it is not becuase of GWB but rather of Barack Husein Obama making. Incompentcy and ineptness rolled up into one."
You must be a time traveller since the President has been in office barely two, not six, months. Your screen name reflects the unfortunate non-intervention movement of the 1940s - a regular Charles Lindbergh or Father Coughlin who, incidentally, was openly anti-Semitic.
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#118 via-media, exactly right. MK, exactly wrong.
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#122. robinstp : "I live in Russia . . . Over a period of 15 weeks they devalued the Rubble on a fraction per day basis."
But what about the actual currency?
"Obama will have his head up somewhere unpleasant for the rest of his stay - and that could be much shorter than he imagined - watch this space!"
Just as well you live so far away - my take on the last phrase is that it is a threat, for which you could suffer the same fate as Mr Madoff, OJ and others. Heaven only knows what would happen to you if you made the same suggestion about Mr Medvedev or Mr. Putin.
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I agree with Justin- bizarre that Obama should back a controversial (but in my view excellent) candidate and then abandon him so quickly. Surely he was picked to stir up the establishment- so why drop him when he ruffles a few feathers?
The statements he's made (or at least the ones I've seen) are not that controversial at all- of course American support means Israel feels little pressure to seriously engage with the peace process.
My thinking is that Obama has realised that the MEast situation is not something he wants to run on in 2012- and so he'll try and make small, non-media worth changes before then. If he gets re-elected, then he'll go for it with his second term, a la Clinton.
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publiusdetroit,
Ref 85: "Checked the maps. Israel did not exist until 1948 CE."
I checked the map today and Israel does exist. Its time you move on and catch today. Just in case if you are living in the past its time you go down to 5000 years! Or else you will be half cooked in-between as you are now!
Ref 121:"Israel would not have to be so paranoid about their existance if they learned to stop stealing their neighbors land, running their tanks over the lawns of their neighbors, play nice with the neighbor kids, etc."
Israel is getting their land back stolen by the Arabs. They are running credible tanks against terrorist missiles. Israel targets terrorists and Palestinians target civilians. Its time you join the police (Israel) instead of supporting terrorists who launch missiles from Palestine.
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publiusdetroit,
Ref 85: "Global warming is making some promising waterfront land available in polar Canada. The Canadians might be willing to sell Ellesmere Island at a reasonable price. Some title issues, but the right price can clear them. I do agree that Israel should go it alone. The USA should stop all aid and support. The sooner, the better."
Israel is not a greedy property developer as you. They are a credible family and they are interested in their family home for 5000 years. They will defend their cherished home to the last drop of blood. Its priceless!
On the other hand there are so much Arab land left waste in countries around Israel. Why don't you do your property development there for the Palestinians with the Arabs. You seem to be good in that!
Please be assured America will support Israel and vice versa by all means. Israel and America share the same value system and people like you playing for terrorists cannot deter that!
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127: "Israel targets terrorists"
Really? I seem to recall news on quite a number of civilian casualties in the latest Israel attacks.
Are the state-of-the-art weapons the West gives them really so inaccurate schools and the like are flattened?
Or is it that anyone and anything in that area is a 'terrorist' and is therefore a legitimate target?
Tell me, in the estimated 100:1 ratio of Palestinian deaths to Isreali deaths, are 100% of the Arabs terrorists?
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#127 Josh
Israel is getting their land back stolen by the Arabs.
It sounds like you agree that all the Native Americans should have their lands back!
And of course some of these Palestinians are not 'original' Israelites who converted to Islam centuries ago.
When did these Arabs 'steal' this land anyway?
Israel targets terrorists and Palestinians target civilians.
What a strange deluded world you reside in. It seems that these Hamas rockets target fields while the IDF shot women and children! You are an apologist for State terror.
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"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001
Nuff said, I think
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#122 Why do people lay the Bush-Paulson bank bailout plan on Obama? Selective memoray lapse? Now that the Obama admin has encouraged congress to attach conditions to the bailout money, like reducing CEO salaries, the banks are 'threatening' to give the money back. http://news.aol.com/political-machine/2009/03/11/banks-seek-to-return-bailout-money-avoid-restrictions/
It will take years to make some of the culture changes Obama has initiated - the corruption and lobbying runs so deep in both parties and corporate America.
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Lets get the phraseology right here.
If you are going to use the word Semite in any context, use it correctly, and not just for Jews.
For example if you are Anti-Semite you are aginst the following.
southwest Asians
Hebrews
Arabs
Ethiopian Semites
Not just Jews, so stop using this word incorrectly.
The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern people originating in southwestern Asia, including Akkadians, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Hebrews, Arabs, and Ethiopian Semites.
and if you all want a good read on the Israel Lobby read the book the ''Israel Lobby.
an excellent un-biased book, that I throughly recommend.
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I've been inthe US for the last 4 weeks tying up some business and, just as I said shortly after the election, the Honeymoon is coming to an end, even quicker than even I expected.
Very few people I spoke to about Obamma seemed satisfied with his performance so far. A fair few see him as a man floundering in a sea that is still relatively calm and dread the waves start to rise.
It seems that from the outset Obama has shown himself to lack the experience to deal with high Office from the shiney new man with the "yes we can" attitude he is becoming a tarnished "perhaps we can" man.
I find little thus far, during Obama's tenure to instill confidence, from his selection of the innner circle, (Billary Clinton for God's sake), to his Foriegn Policy decisions where Islamic Groups, the Russians, chinese and even the EU appear to treat much of what the US Adminstration does with comtempt.
I hate to say I told you so, .but ..................
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Ref 127, Josh
The fact that things are happening today does not mean they are right. The complacency of the world, and the complicity of some, while the State of Israel commits the most heinous acts against people that lack the means to defend themselves and barely have enough to subsist is nothing short of criminal.
Israel over reacted in Lebanon and, again, in the Gaza Strip. Your blockade of that miserable strip of land is designed to foster hatred and over reactions to justify aggression and genocidal acts like the one we saw a few weeks ago. There is simply no excuse for using white phosporous and the most sophisticated and lethal weapons available to destroy schools and apartment buildings, ostensibly to not only kill civilians but destroy the fabric of the Palestinian society and in so doing deny them a future.
The Palestinians and Middle Eastern Jews are descendents of people who have inhabited the entire region for millennia. Both have the right to coexist in peace. The ones that should be expelled are the European Jews who flocked into the region since the creation of the State of Israel and whose needs require the territorial expansion of Israel...and the eradication of the inconvenient souls living in areas adjacent to the territorial borders established in 1948.
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Ref 132, Frayed
"Why do people lay the Bush-Paulson bank bailout plan on Obama?"
With the exception of lack of oversight, I think the TARP bailout put in place by the Bush Administration was essential in solving the financial crisis created, largely, by 8 years of fiscal irresponsibility and decades of deregulation and demonization of government.
So, if the GOP wants to give credit to President Obama for saving capitalism, I think we should welcome the gift.
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Swamilicious,
Ref 129: "Really? I seem to recall news on quite a number of civilian casualties in the latest Israel attacks."
Yes exactly, Hamas are using their own country men as human shields after firing rockets on Israel and thats what you hear obviously. Hamas fire rockets from schools and take refuge in schools.
Its time you speak against Hamas for using human shields and not against Israel.
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ref #130
Josh is correct.
Hams fired from civilian areas and used human sheild which is a war crime.
Israel targeted missle launchers and infastructure of a ecognized terrorist group
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ref #132
I believe what many are complaining about with the Obama administration is the current stimulus pork and the auto bailout.
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Another string drifts off down the endless rat-hole that is the politics of the er, um, "Trans-Jordan".
(Note the deliberate avoidance of other more politically charged geographic terms, by choosing a quaint, British-sounding, slightly-out-of-touch-retired British Major-having a gin-and-tonic term instead).
Inasmuch as Justin has probably headed off for the weekend we can look forward to several hundred more of these delightfully thoughtful postings that David Cunard and I enjoy just soooooo much.
Where is Sam when you need him?
May come back to this.
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David,
So the acronym isn't featured, but if you don't know what is meant by "the Jewish lobby", I'll tell you. It means AIPAC
And if you still believe this thread, from its inception, isn't about Obama giving way in the face of particularly powerful lobby forces, then you should maybe go and look again at Justin's intro.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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ref #137
ST dominick: What would you have considered a measured reaction? You seem to be unconcerned that Lebanon was allowing a recognzied terrorist group to use their country as a missle platform. and that the Hamas war criminals were doing the same.
I've yet to see European protesters go on the street and protest on those occasions.
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136, saint: "The ones that should be expelled are the European Jews who flocked into the region since the creation of the State of Israel"
Perhaps you are forgetting why the European Jews flocked to Israel after WWII? Please don't rewrite or forget history in your attempt to right a wrong. The displaced Jews of Europe were not welcomed anywhere else in the world. Not in large numbers, anyway. That was the real reason for Partition and the creation of the State - to keep the Jews out of everyone else's back yards.
The ones who should really be expelled are the American Jews, thousands and perhaps hundreds of thousands, who left perfectly decent homes in the U.S. in order to go steal the homes of Arabs on the West Bank. There is no excuse for them. Some of them used to be good friends of mine.
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St Dominick,
In clarification, I hope you're referring to the "territorial borders" described in the Partition resolution, rather than to those established by violent conquest, although many of the "inconvenient" Arab residents, even of the area assigned to the "Jewish State" were driven out, either by fear or at gunpoint.Almost all those who left have been denied the right of return, and their homes and villages have either been bulldozed or appropriated by Jewish immigrants...
Interestingly, the European Jews and their descendants are less rabid in their attitudes than the "Middle Eastern Jews", who now constitute a majority in Israel. The strength of the Israeli Peace movement, such as it is, is in the Ashkenazi...perhaps because they are those who carry in their actual family memories the true horrors of genocide.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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139. At 11:45am on 13 Mar 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #130
Josh is correct.
Hams fired from civilian areas and used human sheild which is a war crime.
Israel targeted missle launchers and infastructure of a ecognized terrorist group"
Killing civilians deliberately is a war crime Israel has admitted this.
AI, HRW and practically everyother humanitarian organisation in theworld, including Israeli ones has condemned Israeli state terror.
Whihc is still continuing in Gaza, Jerusalem and the West bank
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At # 134, Mr/Ms KAS1865 gives his/her unbiased and objective critique of President Obama
", the Honeymoon is coming to an end, even quicker than even I expected...Very few people I spoke to about Obamma seemed satisfied with his performance so far. "
This is what is known as 'anecdotal evidence', where the alleged views of the people KAS meets represent those of the c 300m residents of the US. I would have assumed this massive unpopularity would have manifested itself in plunging poll ratings. Any evidence of that, KAS? If so, I must have missed it. Or else the commie/pinko/liberal media are covering it up.
"... his Foriegn Policy decisions where Islamic Groups, the Russians, chinese and even the EU appear to treat much of what the US Adminstration does with comtempt."
'Appear to' indeed. Any concrete evidence that the rest of the world treats Obama with contempt? Especially compared to how they regarded Bush? Because I live in 'the rest of the world', and I can't say I've noticed it.
A few recent postings from KAS illuminate his special brand of objectivity
8 December, several weeks before Obama was sworn in - "I suppose, in line with most Democrat Administrations, he can cut spending on the Military before he surrenders in Iraq but that too will be unpopular./Poor Obama, in league with media, has conned the poor American people."
On 18 December - again several weeks before the President was even sworn in - "As each day passes it becomes clearer that the American Public have been conned, not for the first time, by the Democrats in league with an Anti-Bush Media./I find Obama even less inspiring than Ross Peroit. He is bound to fail and scandal already appears to be stalking him from many directions"
And on 23 Jan, just after the swearing in - "No Bible? Why the surprise? Surely people are more surprised he did n't use the Q'uoran???" [Or perhaps that was intended to be an attempt at humour?]
Isn't it interesting how unbiased and objective these people who whinge constantly about the biased media tend to be?
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138. At 11:42am on 13 Mar 2009, EnochJoshua wrote:
Swamilicious,
Ref 129: "Really? I seem to recall news on quite a number of civilian casualties in the latest Israel attacks."
Yes exactly, Hamas are using their own country men as human shields after firing rockets on Israel and thats what you hear obviously. Hamas fire rockets from schools and take refuge in schools."
That is not the point Joshua.
Killing civilians deliberately is a war crime, whether they are used as human shileds or not is completely irrelevant.
"Its time you speak against Hamas for using human shields and not against Israel."
Its time you stopped trying to justify the killing of babies by fragmentation grenades and shells.
But niether you or any other Israeli appeaser is concerned about the death of "arabs" no matter who they are.
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136. At 11:31am on 13 Mar 2009, saintDominick wrote:
Ref 127, Josh
The fact that things are happening today does not mean they are right. The complacency of the world, and the complicity of some, while the State of Israel commits the most heinous acts against people that lack the means to defend themselves and barely have enough to subsist is nothing short of criminal.
The Palestinians and Middle Eastern Jews are descendents of people who have inhabited the entire region for millennia. Both have the right to coexist in peace. The ones that should be expelled are the European Jews who flocked into the region since the creation of the State of Israel and whose needs require the territorial expansion of Israel...and the eradication of the inconvenient souls living in areas adjacent to the territorial borders established in 1948."
This is excellent. The point is that the Palestinians are simply former jews, Byzantines etc.
However the Israeli appeaser brigade cannot accept this. According to their third reich view of the world the palestinians do not exist and jews and "arabs" are separated by some mysterious blood/racial division - the kind of rubbish we got rid of in 1945.
Israel is a colony set up by the Europeans, Russians and the US (later) to maintain a strategic foothold in an important area.
This is why Europe and the US condone and encourage some of the worst military oppression of the last 50 years.
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"133. At 10:52am on 13 Mar 2009, spider2600 wrote:
Lets get the phraseology right here.
If you are going to use the word Semite in any context, use it correctly, and not just for Jews.
For example if you are Anti-Semite you are aginst the following.
southwest Asians
Hebrews
Arabs
Ethiopian Semites
Not just Jews, so stop using this word incorrectly.
The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern people originating in southwestern Asia, including Akkadians, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Hebrews, Arabs, and Ethiopian Semites.
and if you all want a good read on the Israel Lobby read the book the ''Israel Lobby.
an excellent un-biased book, that I throughly recommend."
SOme of the Israelis and their appeaser friends are incredibly anti-semetic. Even on this board you read stuff that would not be out of place in Der Sturmer.
I beleive until recently in the US, that haven of tolerance, it was not unusual for arabs to be shown in cartoons with huge noses drooping lips etc. All you needed was to chage the livery to the Star of Solomon and bang you were straight back to 1933.
A presidential aide's relative apparently referred to arabs as if they were some inferior race.
Frankly astonishing stuff.
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Ref 140, Magic
"I believe what many are complaining about with the Obama administration is the current stimulus pork and the auto bailout."
Suggesting the auto Bush II bailout of the auto industry and his TARP solution were good, but similar efforts by the Obama administration are bad is pure partisanship and devoid of logic.
IMO, the efforts made by the Bush II Administration to correct our economic woes during his last year in office were necessary and long overdue. President Obama is expanding on those initial steps to prevent a complete collapse of our financial system and industry.
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120. At 02:16am on 13 Mar 2009, David_Cunard wrote:
#100. happylaze: "Justin raised the issue of Mr freeman."
But The Atlantic link focuses on the supposition that "he is too close to the Saudis." It was Simon21 at #27 who raised the issue, prompting Ed (#34), in one of his loud links, to follow up. And we know from all-too-many postings what Ed thinks about the subject.
----------------
And Israel was nothing to do with it.
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swami good to see you.
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Ref 143, Magic
"You seem to be unconcerned that Lebanon was allowing a recognzied terrorist group to use their country as a missle platform. and that the Hamas war criminals were doing the same."
1) Anyone who does not support our interests or our presence in the Middle East is automatically labeled a terrorist. I believe the efforts made by Hezbollah and Hamas to resist Israeli expansionism is commendable. I believe, however, that peaceful demonstrations against Israeli atrocities would be a much better approach to achieve their objectives, than the use of rudimentary and highly ineffective missiles against one of the largest and most effective military super powers in the world.
2) Hamas was democratically elected by the Palestinian people. Again, I believe peaceful demonstrations would be more effective to advance their interests and to bring the plight of the Palestinian people to the forefront of world attention, but that is easy for me to say since neither I nor my family live in the concentration camp that is the Gaza Strip, and we have not been expelled from our homes and persecuted the way the Palestinians have since 1948.
I don't have a problems with the Semitic Jewish people, who I admire and respect, or with the Semitic Palestinian people, but I do have a problem with the policies and actions of the Zionists terrorists that have governed the State of Israel since its inception.
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The President is doing what he ought to be doing...fulfilling his campaign promises. He has a whole (excuse me, delicate Southern ladies don't use language like this) ****load of problems in his lap, inherited from the previous administration, plus did anyone notice that he's a DEMOCRAT and DEMOCRATS won control of both houses of Congress? That means there are 8 whole years of Bush Administration policies to untangle and undo, and then redo before good democratic work can get done on all fronts at once. President Obama must do what he can to clear away the mess and get help on the way to people and businesses in trouble right now -- as well as plan for 3, 5, 10 and 20 years down the road. REPUBLICANS: here is a message that apparently didn't get through to you last November...you're not in power any more. Shut up. Go back and figure out how you're going to win elections with only 14% of the vote but do it out of the spotlight, please.
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Ref 144, Bere
If we were so concerned with the plight of European Jews who did, indeed, deserve protection after the atrocities they endured before and during WWII, why didn't we give them Rhode Island?
Many of the European Jews that migrated to Israel in recent decades came from the Soviet Union and now from Russia, other Eastern European countries, and the USA.
Many live in settlements outside the original boundaries of the State of Israel, against UN resolutions and the rule of international law.
Jews have a right to exist, but so do the Palestinians.
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138 & 139
Uhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/13/gaza-israel-war-crimes
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138 & 139
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/13/gaza-israel-war-crimes
Is it any wonder Israel banned all media in the zone?!
Who cares about that though right, as long as the US keeps backing you (thanks AIPAC!) you will 'win' and the world will fill up with more and more angry Muslim people who bring the fight to our shores.
Finally, look at the death toll of civilians versus non-civilians. From what I saw the figures indicated Israel killed more civilians than otherwise, and 'Hamas' the opposite.
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143. At 12:45pm on 13 Mar 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #137
ST dominick: What would you have considered a measured reaction? You seem to be unconcerned that Lebanon was allowing a recognzied terrorist group to use their country as a missle platform. and that the Hamas war criminals were doing the same."
That does not justify killing women and children.
Tel Aviv is the centre of the vicious Israeli mafia. Should the IDF be allowed to bomb its poorer quarters?
"I've yet to see European protesters go on the street and protest on those occasions."
No European governments give guns and weapons so innocent palestinian children can be killed
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Happylaze - thanks, it's good to see you too!
I am mostly an observer on Justin's blogs but I am drawn out when it comes to the usual suspects' extolling of Israel's virtues within 6 months of the atrocities that will fan the flames of anti-West hate for years to come...
I was about to post something earlier but you'd already said what I was about to in #61!
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156, saint: "If we were so concerned with the plight of European Jews who did, indeed, deserve protection after the atrocities they endured before and during WWII, why didn't we give them Rhode Island?"
That was my point. Concerned, yes, but not concerned enough to allow them into our neighborhoods, in Rhode Island or anywhere else in this country.
Anecdotal history has it that most European Jews displaced after the war had no desire to go to Palestine/Israel. They wanted to go to Britain or the U.S. Their only option was Israel. Many of them later left Israel for a modern diaspora. The more recent Russian/USSR emigrants were denied entry to this country through an under-the-table agreement between Israel and the U.S. because Israel needed to beef up its population. Many of those Russian-Israelis have also moved here to the U.S. I suspect that in the Rego Park section of Brooklyn you might find more Israelis than are in Israel. Of course that's an exaggeration, but I believe that there are more Israelis living in the rest of the world than now reside in Israel.
Israel induced those Eastern European immigrants to move into the West Bank instead of Israel proper with the lure of cheap housing and benefits. Most of the Americans who moved to the West Bank have done so for religious reasons - to reclaim "Judea and Samaria." They are the real fanatics. They are willing to die for they think is theirs.
But there is also a large number of former American-Israelis who saw the error of their ways and returned to the U.S. My own late husband was one of them. Most of them seem to live in San Francisco now.
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Have returned from my sojourn south of the border. Many observations none having to do with Hamas.
It was necessary to drive as far as SC to leave the snow behind. Nice warm weather although a little breezy near the ocean, but I'm not complaining.
On the one hand; gas or petrol prices (to keep everyone happy), were surprisingly low. $1.78 Converting US gallons to litres, US to Cdn dollars we pay $2.60 US. (.87 Cdn/litre). I believe I did that correctly. A little foggy after our two day 18 hour drive!!
But food prices were a shock. We think of US prices being much lower and yet some of the prices in SC were either the same as ours for the same product (but of course in US $) or much higher. I do not know how people are managing.
Trying to find souvenirs not made in China was an impossible task. I admit we were astounded!
As for the topic at hand. The selection process has always surprised me. Amazing people allow their names to be put forward knowing there are some who are just waiting to pull them to pieces. As I recall GWB is a reformed cocaine user with a DUI conviction. When that first came to light I thought he was a dead duck and yet was elected President twice. That I do not understand.
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Ref. 121
"Israel would not have to be so paranoid about their existence if they learned to stop stealing their neighbors land, running their tanks over the lawns of their neighbors, play nice with the neighbor kids, etc."
You're ignoring the diaspora. Jews have tried to peacefully coexist with their (mostly Christian) neighbors for a long time. Look where that got them.
You can afford to ignore repeated attempts at the Jewish race's annihilation through the centuries. They can't.
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Ref. 158
"Finally, look at the death toll of civilians versus non-civilians. From what I saw the figures indicated Israel killed more civilians than otherwise, and 'Hamas' the opposite."
I don't suppose that's because the war took place in a heavily populated Palestinian city, do you?
Hamas chose the battlefield. The argument that to take on the IDF in open terrain is suicide seems valid, I guess, but Hezbollah did it, and they did it successfully.
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Ref. 163
Can you give any sources for this? Your assertions sound reasonable, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were true. but I'd like to know for sure.
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Okay -- dunno what was wrong with that but I'll try again.
53, 66, 70
Guess I should elaborate a bit.
Obviously, no one person can know everything needed to manage the innumerable problems encountered in the presidency. From cabinet level through various subordinate advisory positions, the information stream that winds its way to the top is essential and the president would be helpless without it.
But the focus and direction of the president, his approach to problems encountered, his management of information gathered (and personalities involved) varies greatly among administrations.
Regan knew exactly what he wanted to do. He ordered his cabinet to produce and they moved accordingly.
So did FDR. Mark Schone's book about FDR's first hundred days is revealing about the new administration's cabinet strategy sessions. They were constantly discussing among themselves ideas to put forth that would conform to FDR's wishes. If the president didn't like it, if it failed to conform to his focused intent, he sent the plan back with orders to rework it until they got it right.
Both of those presidents had firm ideas about how to face their problems and would not allow their resolve to be swayed.
When hounded by his cabinet to make a decision, Buchanan miserably complained he had not been allowed enough time to say his prayers. The man was in agony when pressed to decide.
Where does Barak stack up with his predecessors?
Cabinet selectins have been bumpy but the people he's chosen are most unimpressive. The Wall Street Journal poll of economists flunked him and Geithner.
He denounced earmarks and pledged to cut unnecessary spending then signed this massive bill. Why? Veto the blasted thing, throw it back at congress and tell 'em to get it right! I wish he had had the intestinal fortitude to do that.
Not a word about the Chinese encounter at sea yet (that I'm aware of, may be wrong on that) and the Chinese premier is openly wondering about the safety of their money in U.S. bonds. Considering our inexcuseable dependence on their cash going into our treasury, I would think that an ominous turn. That statement would take center stage with me.
I could go on, but the Gestault of his management style does not seem to be a focused vision as much as it seems to be jumbled ideas of various advisors who pitched up with mediocre plans and got them implemented through him.
Simlpy put, Regan , FDR and their ilk would tell their cabinets : "This is how I want to fix this problem. Put it together."
Barak seems to ask: "This is the problem, fellas -- what should I do about it?"
He's certainly not a Buchanan but he's got a sizeable learning curve to work through to develop a commanding grasp of his presidency.
We'll see. It's early. Lincoln rode into D.C. in the dead of night disguised in a ridiculous Scotch cap and long cloak because Allen Pinkerton convinced him of an assination plot. Papers had a field day and humiliated him. He learned quickly whose advice was sound and whose was not. He would never make that mistake again (when Lincoln was safely deposited in D.C., Pinkerton wired his office a code message "Plums delivered nuts," which I think is hilarious).
Maybe he'll grow into the office and make it big. He's a smart guy, perhaps he'll learn.
Could be one term.
We'll see.
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A little comic relief: It's "Red Nose Day" in the UK, But the most comical contribution has to be from our man Broon
;-)
ed
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The Oman is adrift in a sea of complex issues, this means he is finding out that Washington is concerned with its own values and protecting those who support the elected officials, not the voters, moreso then the American nation. He is finding out that money is not the answer to this problem, that economic theories are as full of hot air as the next persons opinion and that his ideals are not real.
The Oman rose on the simple idea that he and the young could change this nation. He was supported by the many and now the many want something he can't give simply because the real powers in Washington, rairly the elected officials see the money as a way to protect their interests.
A few suggestions; investors decide they have excess cash to make money with. Some go to cock fights, some buy into banks, each knows that they could loose the principal they invest and take that chance. Now they have to decide weather to put more of their money in or pull out. Not the American government spending money to safe guard this investment! Investments go bad. If you want safety buy Government bonds!
There has been talk of the billions lost in the stock market and bank stocks. If, and I will bet there are a few smart investors that pulled their cash out six weeks ago, then you made money. If when it started to fall you did not you lost money. You were not complaining when it went up, now! why should you demand the government save you?
This problem, the actual foundation of this whole house of cards is because the real income of the American worker has been held down by the government. Inflation has been rampant in fuel, housing, insurance, power and creditcards/banking for thirty years with ten to fifteen percent rate increases yearly. Wages, bottom level and up to middle class have not run a third nor a quarter of this amount. Here is the real reason for this crash.
Mr. President, your job bills is great, every administration for thirty years has ignored the need to build America. Infact they have spent billions to build up other countries instead of America. I demand that you, set aside twenty billion for rebuilding manufactoring in the US that has been shipped to other countries. That means rebuilding manufactoring using the best equipment available and training the American workers to use it. Next I suugest, no demand you set up three billion for small inventors to use. Five thousand on an idea, twenty five thousand if they have plans to build a new idea or invention. We need the jobs of tomorrow given the chance to be developed today. Finally I would like to see the national guard set so they will not be deployed and any one with a college degree can join. With joining they will have month for month of any college loans paid by the federal government over and above the pay for serving their country.
I am willing to talk to anyone about these ideas because the future of America, I beleive, will come from Americans! not out of Washington. We the people will be the ones that make our future happen.
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165. AndyPost wrote:
"You're ignoring the diaspora. Jews have tried to peacefully coexist with their (mostly Christian) neighbors for a long time. Look where that got them.
You can afford to ignore repeated attempts at the Jewish race's annihilation through the centuries. They can't."
Well, quite. Thanks for pointing that out.
154. saintDominick wrote:
"I believe the efforts made by Hezbollah and Hamas to resist Israeli expansionism is commendable."
I guess you must be the same mixed-up Dominick who thinks that Hamas fires rockets from Gaza into the "occupied territories" when in fact the rockets are fired into UNDISPUTED Israeli territory, perfectly demonstrating Hamas' stated aim to destroy the Jews along with their country, no matter what compromises Israel might make.
Israel must surely be the only country on earth accused of expanding when it WITHDRAWS from territory. Perhaps you didn't notice Israel withdrawing from Gaza and Lebanon. The withdrawal from Gaza was met with the immediate resumption of rocket fire on Israeli civilians by Hamas and crew. The withdrawal from Lebanon was met with years of Hezbollah sniping away at Israel with Katyushas and other attacks and the kidnapping of soldiers and civilians, culminating in the act of war that provoked the Israeli counter-attack in 2006.
Perhaps you should think about actually studying this conflict before jumping to your confusions.
"...but I do have a problem with the policies and actions of the Zionists terrorists that have governed the State of Israel since its inception."
But you obviously have no problem with the genocidal, unprovoked wars from the Arab side against Israel and the continual terror from Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the rest of the motley crew against Israeli civilians.
146. Simon21 wrote:
"Killing civilians deliberately is a war crime Israel has admitted this."
Rubbish. Hamas committed war crimes by firing at Israeli civilians from among Palestinian civilians. Israel had no choice but to respond. If a criminal holding a hostage fires at a police officer and the officer returns fire, accidentally killing the hostage, the criminal is guilty of the death of the hostage.
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166. At 3:32pm on 13 Mar 2009, AndyPost wrote:
Ref. 158
"Finally, look at the death toll of civilians versus non-civilians. From what I saw the figures indicated Israel killed more civilians than otherwise, and 'Hamas' the opposite."
I don't suppose that's because the war took place in a heavily populated Palestinian city, do you?
Rather the point old son is it not? The Israelies n knew they would killing women and children and didn't care.
And if it was a "war" why aren't the rules of war kept? Like not firing on hospitals? Not firing on wounded?
"Hamas chose the battlefield."
Did they? ever other human being says they were attacked by Israel. Even Israel says this
You say different.
I think Hamas would have really liked to fight in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem if given a choice, what do you think?
"The argument that to take on the IDF in open terrain is suicide seems valid, I guess, but Hezbollah did it, and they did it successfully."
Hmmm and what open terrain is there in the Gaza Strip Andy mate?
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165. At 3:22pm on 13 Mar 2009, AndyPost wrote:
Ref. 121
"Israel would not have to be so paranoid about their existence if they learned to stop stealing their neighbors land, running their tanks over the lawns of their neighbors, play nice with the neighbor kids, etc."
You're ignoring the diaspora. Jews have tried to peacefully coexist with their (mostly Christian) neighbors for a long time. Look where that got them."
So shoot up the christians.Oh that's right they shoot back, sad.
"You can afford to ignore repeated attempts at the Jewish race's annihilation through the centuries. They can't."
There is no jewish race Andy . Given yourself away there old mate.
Tells what races are the best races. What race do you belong? The white race?
The stupid race?
Game set and match there
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#55
What is up with you? Why does it have to be all or nothing? No side is ever 100% correct, whether it be Jews or "red indians", but we do need to at least realize some sort of compromise.
#12
Well said. When you're cleaning out your closet the room gets real messy, and there are outfits that date back too far. The lower majority have been made to wear nasty non-breathable polyester, while the very small upper minority wear comfortable linen.
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Charles Freeman's Victory
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/PeaceJustin Raimondo argues that although forced to withdraw, “Chas” Freeman took the Israel lobby down with him.
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166 Andy:
"I don't suppose [Israel killed more civilians than fighters] because the war took place in a heavily populated Palestinian city, do you?"
I see you aren't disputing that Israel killed more innocent people than fighters, so what is your argument, that they had no way of fighting the war without killing innocent people?
In that case I would point you to the link I posted with the following accusations from the UN / Amnesty International:
- Using banned weapons such as phosphorus bombs [considering how well armed they are, I think we can all assume they had alternatives]
- Holding Palestinian families as human shields
- Attacking medical facilities, including the killing of 12 ambulance men in marked vehicles
- Killing large numbers of Police who had no military role
The Red Cross states that the Israeli army moved a family in to a building and shelled it killing 30.
Does this sound like collateral damage to you?
Given that they have "extremely sophisticated missiles that can be guided to a moving car" what exactly is your defence of these crimes? Does it all sound unavoidable?
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#165 Andy
You can afford to ignore repeated attempts at the Jewish race's annihilation through the centuries. They can't.
A Jew is not a 'race' just a religion. It has been mentioned before that the diaspora didn't happen. Judaism spread by conversion.
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#141. Interestedforeigner: "we can look forward to several hundred more of these delightfully thoughtful postings that David Cunard and I enjoy just soooooo much."
Good to know that there is a kindred spirit out there!
#142. Ed Iglehart: "So the acronym isn't featured, but if you don't know what is meant by "the Jewish lobby", I'll tell you. It means AIPAC."
That's your interpretation because you want it to be so. Had the writer meant AIPAC he would have written so. Even if you don't give much credence to Wikipedia, you might want to read this: The Israel lobby in the United States is a term used to describe the loose coalition of groups and individuals who influence United States foreign policy in support of Israel and its policies.
I don't see that Justin's intro leads into a discussion of Palestine-Israel - give you and Magic an inch and you'll take a mile. There's certainly a lot more to any "drifting" by the President than that.
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#166 Andy
Hamas chose the battlefield. The argument that to take on the IDF in open terrain is suicide seems valid, I guess, but Hezbollah did it, and they did it successfully.
Is this a joke? Hamas observed the ceasefire, and it was Israel that broke it. Hamas made calls for the reinstatement of the 2005 ceasefire days before Israel started its murder of civilians. Hamas didn't choose the battlefield - Israel did! Where else is Hamas going to 'choose' its battlefield? Crazy.
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WHAT DID YOU EXPECT, HE IS NOT A CITIZEN AND HAS NO EXPERIENCE?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
176, AndyPost -
Not sure what you want for resources. This is knowledge that comes from a lifetime of being immersed in this subject, extensive reading over the years, having lived in Israel, having been married to an American-Israeli, long conversations over dinner with Israeli expats (native-born and immigrants), and connections with all those people now living in San Francisco.
As for the diverted-to-Israel European refugees, post-war and more recent, that's a matter of record though you'll have to look it up yourself because I am not computer-literate enough to do it and when I had to cull my private library several years ago I purged all the Jewish stuff so as to keep all the books I can't bear to be without.
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Sorry, AndyPost, #182 should have made reference to your #167. Maybe I'm getting dyslexic.
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Ref 165 AndyPost
No, I am not ignoring the diaspora. Israel has been forcing a diaspora on the Palestinians since 1948. The Palestinians are reacting in the very same fashion as the native people of North America did during our diaspora. We fought tooth and nail to the death against the invaders (most of whom were Christian). We chose to fight and die for our land and our way of life until there was so few we could fight no more. The warriors had all perished in battle; or been captured, sent to concentration camps and prisons until they either died, or became too old to fight.
This diabolical legacy of murder and displacement is no more moral nor ethical because the people of Israel wish to conquer a supposed "promised land" from the people who live there. Obviously the Mosaic laws against coveting a neighbor, murder, and stealing are not taken serious by the very people who claim a "covenant" with their god to uphold those laws.
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#171 TT
Firstly, Israel has not withdrawn from the Gaza Strip, it has only withdrawn it's settlers. Israel is very much in control of Gaza. You have been told of this many times, yet you still peddle this lie.
Secondly, has Israel a peace deal with Lebanon or just a ceasefire? Given your concern of kidnappings: are you going to petition the Israeli government to release the hundreds of Palestinian civilians kidnapped by Israel? I don't think so!
I notice that you are putting words into peoples mouths again. Anti-Zionist posters on this blog have made it clear that they abhor violence from both sides. Yet you condone State terror!
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Ref 171, True
"Perhaps you didn't notice Israel withdrawing from Gaza and Lebanon. The withdrawal from Gaza was met with the immediate resumption of rocket fire on Israeli civilians by Hamas and crew."
Should we all praise Israel for their decision to withdraw from Lebanon and Gaza after slaughtering hundreds of innocent Palestinian civilians and Lebanese citizens?
As I said in previous posts, I think the Palestinians are making a strategic mistake launching rockets into Israel, regardless of how understandable it is for desperate people to react violently to the genocidal acts of their oppressors. Peaceful demonstrations to highlight Zionist atrocities and the deplorable conditions that exist in the Gaza concentration camp would be a more effective vehicle to attract world attention.
Yes, this is a complex problem and solving it is, clearly, not an easy task, but insisting on Palestinian concessions that amount to unconditional surrender of their grievances, while the Israelis are allowed to occupy Palestinian lands (illegal settlements) and launch heinous attacks against civilians with absolute impunity is not the way to go.
Unfortunately, nothing will change for many years to come. The Obama administration has already pledged its unwavering support to Israel, which means billions of dollars in financial aid and sophisticated weapons will continue to flow to maintain their status quo. There is no drifting on this subject...
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#175 Ed
I hope you are right, but I fear that it's wishful thinking. We are dealing with religious nuts here so rationality and logic are of little or no consequence.
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171. At 4:11pm on 13 Mar 2009, TrueToo wrote:
165. AndyPost wrote:
"You're ignoring the diaspora. Jews have tried to peacefully coexist with their (mostly Christian) neighbors for a long time. Look where that got them.
You can afford to ignore repeated attempts at the Jewish race's annihilation through the centuries. They can't."
Well, quite. Thanks for pointing that out."
What that jews are a race?
In 2009 you beleive jews are a race?
154. saintDominick wrote:
"I believe the efforts made by Hezbollah and Hamas to resist Israeli expansionism is commendable."
I guess you must be the same mixed-up Dominick who thinks that Hamas fires rockets from Gaza into the "occupied territories" when in fact the rockets are fired into UNDISPUTED Israeli territory, perfectly demonstrating Hamas' stated aim to destroy the Jews along with their country, no matter what compromises Israel might make."
Wasn't Israel blockading all the Palestinian territories including those with no rockets?
Why force women to givve birth at check points in the West bank?
"Israel must surely be the only country on earth accused of expanding when it WITHDRAWS from territory. Perhaps you didn't notice Israel withdrawing from Gaza and Lebanon."
Perhaps you havent noticed the settlements? The bulldozings, the arbitary killings?
Pass you by?
T"he withdrawal from Gaza was met with the immediate resumption of rocket fire on Israeli civilians by Hamas and crew. "
When did Israel withdraw? It started starving Palestinians as soon as it withdrew.
Is starvation OK in your eyes?
"The withdrawal from Lebanon was met with years of Hezbollah sniping away at Israel with Katyushas and other attacks and the kidnapping of soldiers and civilians, culminating in the act of war that provoked the Israeli counter-attack in 2006."
The Lebanese border, according to Israel, was extremely peaceful under Hezbollah's aegis.
But really those pesky arabs using rockets, don't they know their only meant for nice white people to use!
"...but I do have a problem with the policies and actions of the Zionists terrorists that have governed the State of Israel since its inception."
"But you obviously have no problem with the genocidal, unprovoked wars from the Arab side against Israel and the continual terror from Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the rest of the motley crew against Israeli civilians."
But Zionist terrorists are fine then?
Terrorism is fine if a Zionist does it?
146. Simon21 wrote:
"Killing civilians deliberately is a war crime Israel has admitted this."
"Rubbish. Hamas committed war crimes by firing at Israeli civilians from among Palestinian civilians. Israel had no choice but to respond."
Not by killing civilians, simple law sorry.
Perhaps learn something before sprouting anti-arab rubbish
"If a criminal holding a hostage fires at a police officer and the officer returns fire, accidentally killing the hostage, the criminal is guilty of the death of the hostage."
Are you saying Police Officers can shoot regardless of hostages? Is this what you are saying.
Are you a complete idiot. Of course they can't.
Neither can they blow up a whole apartment building if there is gun shot from one window
Neither can they open up with machine guns in a busy street to prevent a bank robbery.
What a clown. We are dealing with the deliberate slaughter and continued starvation of babies, women, the infirm,not animals or vermin.
People like your exalted white self
Israel admitted deliberately killing civilians. It claims there was a war, it comitted a war crime.
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Accused AIPAC Spy Leads Attacks on Chas Freeman
(emphasis mine)Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
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178 David: "I don't see that Justin's intro leads into a discussion of Palestine-Israel . . . "
You are being a tad naive here. Whether he spoke of "the Jewish lobby" or "the Israel lobby" or specifically AIPAC is irrelevant. The "Jewish lobby" by whatever name lobbies for one purpose only: the interests of Israel. To pretend it might be something else is to deny reality.
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ref #178 Wrong as usual, I only respond when the lies about Israel and AIPAC come out from the usual hateful respondents.
If you go back to #1
Israel is not mentioned. I only responded when Freeman lied about AIPAC pressure when it was his own dubious dealing that sunk him
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Ref. 179
"Is this a joke? Hamas observed the ceasefire, and it was Israel that broke it."
Really? How many rockets does it take to break a ceasefire?
Give me a break.
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Some points for the pro Israel no matter what crowd.
(It's entirely reasonable for Israel to be an ally of the US, however there are limits?)
Going into service with a Chinese Air Force is a new design, not the licence built Russian SU-27's, but one all Chinese it seems.
But it isn't really that.
The aircraft seems a lot like an almost forgotten design from the late 80's, the Israeli Lavi.
Lavi only got as far as a couple of prototypes, before it was axed in favour of more US F-16's but with more Israeli systems fitted.
In reality, Lavi required major US technology on nearly all it's major components and systems, a large part of it was built by US companies. (The ones not involve lobbied against the US help for this project though).
What happened to the Lavi prototypes? Well one ended up in China.
In direct conflict to US policy.
The Chinese, previously only able to make constant mods, upgrades, to 1950's and 60's Russian designs.
Now, they leaped two generations.
Thanks to Israel, who also have provided technology in areas like air to air and air to ground missiles to be carried by these aircraft.
There have been a number of major spy rings uncovered in the US, by Israel, usually in the area of sensitive military technology.
High profile, well quite high profile, it's all rather embarrassing really.
1979, a nuclear flash was picked up by a US satellite in the South Atlantic.
Not one of the nuclear powers, so who?
It would transpire that Apartheid South Africa, by then subject to a total UN arms embargo, had gotten a small nuclear capability, with help from guess who?
(Plus Israel got to test it's second generation of warhead designs, the first being based on early and tested French designs-before France broke nuclear co-operation with Israel in 1960).
Also, a range of weapons, from missile boats, rifles, the Mirage upgrade, in South African service during the embargo, were Israeli designs, to the point of being totally identical.
1967, the US Navy ship Liberty, a WW2 'Liberty' ship converted to a signals intelligence platform, was attacked in the Mediterrean by Israeli jets.
As the 1967 war was raging, it was called a 'mistake'.
But, this vessel had very prominent US flags and Stars And Strips painted on the structure.
And the jets came back, again and again.
Then an attack by Israeli vessels.
US sailors died in this attack, this 'mistake'.
It seems unlikely that this was a mistake, highly competent pilots in clear weather and visual range, attacking a clearly marked US vessel festooned with national markings.
But why?
Liberty listened in to communications traffic, a floating NSA station really.
They did not by any chance pick up Israeli signals traffic of how an IDF unit has murdered a bunch of POW's?
By a unit commanded by an officer named Ariel Sharon?
Who had done similar in 1956.
Who as defence minister would sit and watch the massacre of civillians, women and children included, by Israeli proxy forces in 1982.
It does not have to be this way, the first President Bush had a poor personal relationship with the Israeli PM (who like the worst ones, was a terrorist in the late 1940's).
Bush was not afraid to tell Israel that ally or not, aspects of their behavior (such as illegal settlement building), might not go unpunished by the US, all those tax $ and paid for weapons. Indeed, some limited embargos for a time happened even under Reagan.
Come the 1991 Gulf War, Saddam launches his militarily useless but politically devasting SCUD's - or the local 'Fisher-Price' version of this old Soviet weapon, at Israel.
The coalition against him requires the bases, logistical support, political support and manpower too, of the Arab world.
Now this.
If Israel joins the war, this support goes, or else the various leaders of these nations will tremble in their palaces as the streets ferment.
We know that Bush managed, through assistance (more political than technically effective), pleas, cajoling, kept Israel out and then Saddam's rule of Kuwait was doomed.
The point being that Israeli PM Shamir, with his less than cordial relationship with Bush, knew that he could not take the whole future posture of US support, for granted.
This may well have been the ultimate restraining factor.
Something to think about in these troubled times, where a situation could arise that puts Israeli wishes, policies, against US policy.
Some on the right of US politics, are always berating some European allies, accusing them of being minded (not actually doing though), the very things Israel HAS done, again and again.
Which these other allies, most of which are troops fighting and dying alongside US forces in Afghanistan.
That's one reason some just do not see what the US is getting out of the carte blanche policy towards Israel, even when it is clearly not in Americas interests.
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Ref. 182
You're not the first to suggest it. It's a reasonable claim, and I'm inclined to believe it, but I'd like to read more about it. It does invalidate one of my arguments about why the U.S. sees the preservation of Israel as a priority.
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timewaits -
I replied to your 164 about GWB and the DUI, and mentioned his base who in general do not have a problem with DUI. It was a fairly innocuous post, quoting what you had said, and for some reason it has been referred to the moderators.
My main point was that when I lived in West Virginia, the fine for spotlighting a deer was $100 while the fine for DUI was $50. I was attempting to show priorities. I wonder if this one will make it through.
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179. dceilar wrote:
"Hamas observed the ceasefire, and it was Israel that broke it."
Nonsense. Hamas doesn't know what a ceasefire is. They think it means the Israelis must cease and Hamas can carry on firing.
And whenever they are being hit hard by the Israelis they call a ceasefire to give themselves time and space to regroup and rearm for the next round. Hamas doesn't want peace with Israel. It wants to destroy Israel. I don't know why you find this so hard to understand. It's a simple concept.
"Hamas made calls for the reinstatement of the 2005 ceasefire days before Israel started its murder of civilians."
I'm not sure what you mean by the "2005 ceasefire" but Hamas head Khalid Meshaal refused to extend the ceasefire that lapsed in December 2008. There was conflict between Meshaal and the Gaza Hamas leadership, who accused Meshaal of provoking the Israeli attack before they were ready for it.
You should at least allow a decent interval of time to elapse before you start your historical revisionism.
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Ref. 172
"The Israelies n knew they would killing women and children and didn't care.'
The could have leveled Gaza City. They certainly had the power to do so.
I'm glad they didn't.
I'm not giving Israel a pass for its behavior in Gaza. The use of white phosphorus on a civilian population is a war crime (which I expect will never be prosecuted). The decision to reduce the city block by block is not one that was forced on them. I'm also not pleased at the decision they made to continue their operation up until their American patrons' inauguration celebration. They didn't want to spoil it for us. That's a cold calculation.
Still, Hamas deserves a lot of blame for what happened and so do the Gazans. In choosing Hamas to lead them, the Palestinians knew they were choosing militancy. I feel about that decision the same way that I feel about Georgia's decision to attack Russia. Right and wrong aside, it's unwise to attack a vastly superior military force. It gets a lot of your own people killed.
Ref. 173
"There is no jewish race Andy . Given yourself away there old mate."
Lose the colloquialisms, would you? I'm neither old nor your mate.
Anyway, if you're pointing out that there's no biological basis for race, you are correct. However, the term has been used to delineate cultural divisions for a long, long time. Referring to Jews as a race isn't anything new. However, if you wish, substitute "people" or "tribes". That was my intention.
Oh, and I'm a WASP, if that makes any difference to the discussion.
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185. At 5:36pm on 13 Mar 2009, dceilar wrote:
#171 TT
Firstly, Israel has not withdrawn from the Gaza Strip, it has only withdrawn it's settlers. Israel is very much in control of Gaza. You have been told of this many times, yet you still peddle this lie."
Yes interesting isn't it. If any of these israeli appeasers was forced to watch one of their relatives die due to lack of medicine or supplies they would howl to the skies, and they would consider it terrorist violence.
Which it would be.
But the Palestinians, presumably because they are inferiors must endure such conditions, and, furthermore, be grateful for this mercy.
"Secondly, has Israel a peace deal with Lebanon or just a ceasefire? Given your concern of kidnappings: are you going to petition the Israeli government to release the hundreds of Palestinian civilians kidnapped by Israel? I don't think so! "
Not considering babies and children also held in Israeli jails.
And not forgetting the fact Israel does give these people trials.
Why? because to the Israeli ryling clique these people are not human beings, they are an inferior "race"
It was said by the Kooris in Australia that "the oppressor is the best teacher" and teh Israelis have learnt many lessons from theirs - inhumanity being one of them.
"I notice that you are putting words into peoples mouths again. Anti-Zionist posters on this blog have made it clear that they abhor violence from both sides. Yet you condone State terror!"
Ah but put on a nice uniform and automatically you are not a terrorist. The SS had some spanking uniforms, shiny badges polished boots.
But they were still terrorists in the eyes of most sane people.
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186. saintDominick,
I should have made it a bit more clear that I was referring to the 2005 withdrawal from Gaza, namely the disengagement. The Israelis withdrew from every last square inch of Gaza. This was precisely what the Palestinians had been demanding of Israel. It was also what the "international community" had been demanding of Israel.
The Palestinians responded with an almost immediate resumption of rocket fire from Gaza on Israeli civilians. I'm not sure how much more clear you want the message of Palestinian terror to be.
Those who claim that the withdrawal means nothing because Israel still controls Gaza miss the rather important point that if there were no terror attacks from Gaza there would be no need for control. By immediately resuming the rockets attacks, Hamas terrorists proved that they have no intention of even giving peace a chance.
Soon after the June 1967 Six Day War, the Israelis were prepared to hand back territory captured in the war in exchange for peace.
The Arabs responded in September of that year with their infamous "three nos" at their summit in Khartoum:
*No peace with Israel
*No recognition of Israel
*No negotiations with Israel
Little has changed since then.
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182. At 5:23pm on 13 Mar 2009, bere54 wrote:
176, AndyPost -
Not sure what you want for resources. This is knowledge that comes from a lifetime of being immersed in this subject, extensive reading over the years, having lived in Israel, having been married to an American-Israeli, long conversations over dinner with Israeli expats (native-born and immigrants), "
My experience closely paralells, except the marriage bit.
I also had some experince of the RSA and the same attitudes ie there was one ethnic group whihc must dominate at all costs was pervasive.
Israel was of course a keen supporter of the RSA
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Ref. 184
The "taming of the American west" was ethnic cleansing and a terrible crime. To equate what the Israelis are doing now with what the U.S. government did then is to diminish the true extent of the mindless barbarism displayed in this country (to the cheers of most Americans at the time). There's not much we can do about it now except to try to stop it from happening again.
I do think (hope) that we can avoid such atrocious behavior in Palestine.
Israel has had the ability to wipe out the Palestinians (and most of the Arab states around them) since about 1967. They haven't used it nor have they even threatened to. That said, the current siege of Gaza must end. It's no solution, and it's inhumane.
The good news is that Hamas is trying to stop the rocket fire. If they succeed, that may just break the deadlock.
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Ref 199, TrueToo
"Those who claim that the withdrawal means nothing because Israel still controls Gaza miss the rather important point that if there were no terror attacks from Gaza there would be no need for control."
This argument reminds me of that old saying: what came first the chicken or the egg? IMO, the desperate - and misguided - attempt by Palestinian resistance fighters is influenced largely by the Israeli boycott of the Gaza Strip; pretty much the same way Jews resisted the Nazis in the Warsaw ghettos.
You can not oppress people indefinitely and expect them to roll over and accept their fate. Israel controls access to and from Gaza via land, air, and sea. Are Israelis really surprised by the Palestinian reaction to their plight, or is it all a game? Are the Israeli religious and cultural convictions so pervasive that they can not see the injustice being perpetrated against their fellow semites?
Semitic Jews deserve to be free and live in peace, but so do the semitic Palestinians whose ancestors lived alongside the Jews' for millennia.
Israel is making a mistake in treating the Muslim world the same way Christians have treated them for centuries. Those Christians that support your ventures today because of economic reasons and ideological and cultural bias are the same ones that will turn against you on a dime.
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Ref 201, Andy
"The good news is that Hamas is trying to stop the rocket fire. If they succeed, that may just break the deadlock."
I doubt it, the rocket launches are an excuse to promote and carry out policies designed to achieve territorial expansion and the extermination of people alien to the dominant culture in the State of Israel.
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ref #202
You place a lot of faith in the honor of Hamas.
I have seen no indication that if Israel moved back to the 67 border that Hamas would stop acting as terrorists.
You and the Arab supporters of the Saudi plan basicly are asking:
Give in to all of our demands and trust us to have peace with you.
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202, saintdominick: "Are the Israeli religious and cultural convictions so pervasive that they can not see the injustice being perpetrated against their fellow semites?"
In a word, yes. Not all Israelis, of course. But a great many of them suffer from chronic victimitis. So do many American Jews. The way things are going it may well prove to be a terminal illness.
I have in the past heard matter-of-fact conversations that would curdle your blood. There is a blind spot that prevents some people from seeing injustice as affecting anyone but the Jews.
As I said, not all Israelis. Not all diaspora Jews. But a lot of them. It's one of the reasons I have disassociated myself from that culture.
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ref #202
First the Israelis are not oppressing the Palestinians.
Second how can you ask the Israelis to give any more concession when the Palestinians and Arabs state have given none
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Here's some information for those whose main contribution to the debate is to compare Israel to the Nazis and Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto:
Hezbollah does the Nazi salute, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem met Hitler and enthusiastically planned to implement the "Final Solution" - i.e. the genocide of the Jews - in Palestine, Iraq had a pro-Nazi government in the 1940s, Hamas has the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews in its charter and practically the last Jew has been driven out of most Arab countries.
During the worst years of the Second Intifada, between 2000 and 2005, Palestinian terrorist murdered 1000 Israelis, 700 of them civilians. They were killed in suicide attacks on buses and in restaurants, in drive-by shootings and in attacks on homes and in Kassam rocket attacks. In one incident, two terrorists stopped a car driven by a pregnant mother with her five young children and pumped bullets into them until they were sure that all were dead. In another incident, a terrorist infiltrated a kibbutz and killed a mother and her two young children while she was desperately trying to protect them from the bullets with her body. In another, two young teenagers playing truant from school were stoned to death in a cave by a terrorist mob.
Israel responded by killing terrorists and their leaders whenever it could and building the fence/wall, which went a long way towards stemming the terror attacks. But they still tried, and still are trying to get through the check points to kill Jews.
Largely frustrated in these attempts, Hamas and company turned increasingly to the rocket attacks, effectively turning large areas of southern Israel into places under siege and making normal life impossible. Israel endured this for years, only trying to neutralise the rocket launchers and kill the crews but the breaking point came when Hamas started firing longer range Iranian missiles at cities 40 kilometers from Gaza and stepping up the frequency of the rocket fire to as much as 100 rockets per day.
Hence the attack on Gaza.
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Ref 201 AndyPost
The wanton genocide of the native people in what came to be known as America did not start with the quaint "taming of the American west". It started with Colombus. Do not diminish the total barbarism of the conquerors. Do not diminish the millions of lives lustily taken to achieve the conquest of a land. Do not negate the 400 years it took the various conquerors to silence a brave, determined people defending their homes before the last of their land could be stolen from them.
The conquest of a land to fulfill the greed of another people is happening now in the Mideast. The State of Israel is only held back on a loose leash against using even more horrible solutions by current world opinion against atrocities of war and genocide. The use of white phosphorous in the lastest invasion of the Gaza is evidence of the cruelity the people of Israel will support against other human beings they wish to annihilate.
There is no justification for the use white phosphorous against human beings. How satanically cruel. "Lest we forget", say the people of the supposed "covenant"with their god when they weep in rememberance of the genocide against them. Why not use the more gentle, "ethnic cleansing" when the genocide of the European Jews is at topic? Is the murder of one people less than the murder of another people?
Color phrases in shades of royal purple if you like. Genocide is genocide, no matter what people are being murdered for the high-held beliefs and greed of another people. Israel needs to learn humanity.
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205. bere54,
Goodness, why would people feel victimized when the rest of the planet has been trying to wipe them out for thousands of years and often coming close to succeeding in that aim?
Just doesn't make sense, right?
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208. publiusdetroit wrote:
"The conquest of a land to fulfill the greed of another people is happening now in the Mideast. The State of Israel is only held back on a loose leash against using even more horrible solutions by current world opinion against atrocities of war and genocide."
You can't be serious. The Jews have more right to that land than the Arabs. They've been there a lot longer, for a start. And get a good dictionary and look up "genocide."
The Israelis used white phosphorus as flares to light up the battlefield, not to attack people. If you can bear some education, read my post at no. 207.
The Arab side of the Israeli-Arab conflict are the ones intent on genocide.
You talk about "humanity." Israelis are currently helping black Sudanese Muslims fleeing the slaughter by their Arab Muslim brothers in Sudan - those who are not shot by the Egyptians as they try to cross the border into Israel. There is a powerful irony in the fact of Muslims fleeing other Muslims to find comfort and support from Jews. But I'm sure you can't see it.
Here's a general question for the Israel-bashing crowd:
Name me one Arab country that would take in and support desperate African refugees of another religion from a hostile country.
Don't all rush to answer at once.
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Ref 204, Magic
"You and the Arab supporters of the Saudi plan basicly are asking:
Give in to all of our demands and trust us to have peace with you."
Wrong. What I hope for is a world where people can coexist in peace, where people are free to go wherever they wish and are allowed to prosper, support their families, and educate and care for their children.
Behind the facade of righteousness put forth by the Zionists and the US government lies a determination to deny the Palestinians the right to exist. The goal, exemplified during the most recent atrocities in Gaza, is to cleanse the region of Muslims and to achieve that goal the Israeli army targeted schools, hospitals, and apartment buldings because by killing the young and women they deny the Palestinians a future.
I realize my utopian ideals is just a chimera in a world consumed by greed, deceit and violence, but hoping for anything less is tantamount to dehumanization and an absence of moral principles that I simply can not accept.
Yes, I realize that tolerance and compassion are considered appeasement by our Christian crusaders and their Zionist surrogates, but that is the way some of us think and it is unlikely that this septuagenarian will change his ways any time soon.
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209, TrueToo -
The rest of the planet? Thousands of years?
That's exactly the chronic victimitis attitude I was talking about.
Yes, there have been hideous periods in history when Jews (along with lots of non-Jews) have been terrorized and murdered. Millions of them. I agree.
But not by all the planet. And not continuously for thousands of years. And I'm afraid that a civilized people cannot use that as an excuse to oppress, terrorize, and murder another people. If anything, it should have made them more sensitive originally to the plight of the Arabs in Palestine. Instead, they saw their victimization as an excuse to try to grab everything for themselves. It makes me ashamed of what I used to call "my people."
I do not condone any of the terrorist actions by Palestinians you enumerate in your post #207. Most of them are fact; I don't deny that. But the Israelis are not innocent in this, and that is what you fail to see.
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ref #211
You need two hands to clap.
Weather you are willing to admidt it or not.
Israel has proved with Egypt and Jordan that they can be trusted and will honor their peace agreements.
The Palestinians by electing war criminals have proven the opposite.
I would like to see peace in the Middle East but I see the hatread by islamic extemists holding it back.
The arab nations should not let Palestinian terrorists hold them back from making peace.
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211. saintDominick wrote:
"The goal, exemplified during the most recent atrocities in Gaza, is to cleanse the region of Muslims and to achieve that goal the Israeli army targeted schools, hospitals, and apartment buldings because by killing the young and women they deny the Palestinians a future."
You talk a truly mind-boggling amount of rubbish. Why don't you study this conflict a bit. You obviously feel passionately about it so it would help if you knew what you were talking about.
212. bere54,
Not having the space or the time enumerate every genocidal attack on the Jews from ancient Rome to Europe to the Middle East throughout the centuries I was obliged to generalise. I would have thought it was obvious that I wasn't talking about continual attacks worldwide.
And where do you get the idea that the Israelis are using this as an "excuse to oppress, terrorize, and murder another people?"
"If anything, it should have made them more sensitive originally to the plight of the Arabs in Palestine. Instead, they saw their victimization as an excuse to try to grab everything for themselves."
Really? So the Jews of 1947 Palestine were trying to "grab everything for themselves" when they accepted the UN partition of a tiny sliver of land out of the original British Mandate for Palestine? It was the Arabs who were actually being the greedy ones, when you think about it. They rejected partition because they wanted all the land and they thought they could destroy the Jews and get it. Well, we all know how that worked out.
"Most of them are fact." You mean some of them are not? Please point out the ones you think I'm lying about in that case.
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#190. bere54: "You are being a tad naive here. Whether he spoke of "the Jewish lobby" or "the Israel lobby" or specifically AIPAC is irrelevant."
I don't agree in the least; Justin didn't mention any lobby but did provide a link which had the quote everyone should be looking at:
You’re going to hear a lot of hooey about how the "Jewish lobby" scuttled an utter savant of diplomacy because of their slavish subservience to Israel and Israel’s interests. Don’t believe it. Chas Freeman is withdrawing because he, to the untrained observer, appears to be a wholly owned subsidiary of the Saudi government.
It's only by extension that AIPAC etc. has been brought into the discussion - the same people making the same arguments time and time again. If the manufacture and origin of Jaffa Juice was to be raised here, it would soon turn into the "debate" above.
#213. MagicKirin: "The Palestinians by electing war criminals . . . " There you go again! It's not as if the founders of Israel were lily white - where is Ms Marbles when we need her?
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214. At 11:48pm on 13 Mar 2009, TrueToo wrote:
211. saintDominick wrote:
"The goal, exemplified during the most recent atrocities in Gaza, is to cleanse the region of Muslims and to achieve that goal the Israeli army targeted schools, hospitals, and apartment buldings because by killing the young and women they deny the Palestinians a future."
You talk a truly mind-boggling amount of rubbish. Why don't you study this conflict a bit. You obviously feel passionately about it so it would help if you knew what you were talking about.
As opposed to yourself? The Israelies bombarded Gaza with fairy floss and feathers.
And all the Palestinian women killed themselves -that's what Palestinians do.
That is your take.
Justifying the slaughter of women and children is hard isn't it?
tends to make you look an inhumane idiot.
"212. bere54,
Not having the space or the time enumerate every genocidal attack on the Jews from ancient Rome to Europe to the Middle East throughout the centuries I was obliged to generalise. I would have thought it was obvious that I wasn't talking about continual attacks worldwide.
And where do you get the idea that the Israelis are using this as an "excuse to oppress, terrorize, and murder another people?"
Er from what they say. And look a few posts up israelie appeaseers are saying it now.
Do read the posts before commenting.
"Really? So the Jews of 1947 Palestine were trying to "grab everything for themselves"
That's what Ben Gurion said (he was a famous Israelie PM).
"when they accepted the UN partition of a tiny sliver of land out of the original British Mandate for Palestine?"
How sweet of them. It was of course given to them by nice white Europeans like themselves.
"It was the Arabs who were actually being the greedy ones, when you think about it. "
Really? Can I take half your house because my neighbour says its OK?
That is fair to you.
"They rejected partition because they wanted all the land and they thought they could destroy the Jews and get it. Well, we all know how that worked out."
They were not consulted were they? The Palestinians were told (having been terrorsed by Wingate [he was a Britiish officer notorious for his hatred of arabs] and his jewish gangs earlier) they had to give up half their land, the most productive part of it by nice white people like your goodself.
How dare they think they have a the same rights as the rest of us!
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Check your Pulse!
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peaceed
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213. At 11:28pm on 13 Mar 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #211
More from the disciple of Dershowitz
You need two hands to clap."
But one brain to think.
"Israel has proved with Egypt and Jordan that they can be trusted and will honor their peace agreements."
really. And here were the rest of us thinking it was the US billions paid to Murbarak's murderous gang and the Jordanian King. I think it was three billion at last count.
In the civilised world we call this bribery.
A large chunk of Israeli society believes the country should conquer Amman.
"I would like to see peace in the Middle East but I see the hatread by islamic extemists holding it back."
You mean "piece". Piece of this piece of that
Oh why can't those pesky Palestinians simply "go away"
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210. At 11:11pm on 13 Mar 2009, TrueToo wrote:
208. publiusdetroit wrote:
"The conquest of a land to fulfill the greed of another people is happening now in the Mideast. The State of Israel is only held back on a loose leash against using even more horrible solutions by current world opinion against atrocities of war and genocide."
You can't be serious. The Jews have more right to that land than the Arabs."
Arabs, do you mean the Palestinians? Arabs are not a race are they?
Opps another Israel appeaser gives himself away
"They've been there a lot longer, for a start. And get a good dictionary and look up "genocide.""
Look up rascism too. The palestinians are the oiriginal inhabitants genius.
They have been jews, Byzantines etc.
Try to read a book.
"The Israelis used white phosphorus as flares to light up the battlefield, not to attack people. If you can bear some education, read my post at no. 207"
Of course they did. Israeli bullets don't enter children's bodies either do they?
."The Arab side of the Israeli-Arab conflict are the ones intent on genocide."
How many Israeli children are dying due to the Palesitnian blockade?
You talk about "humanity." Israelis are currently helping black Sudanese Muslims fleeing the slaughter by their Arab Muslim brothers in Sudan - those who are not shot by the Egyptians as they try to cross the border into Israel. "
Really wow. Are these the people the israelis are trying to get rid of?
Whose religion "doesn't fit"
"There is a powerful irony in the fact of Muslims fleeing other Muslims to find comfort and support from Jews. But I'm sure you can't see it."
Oh Israel only consists of jews. Well theres a lesson.
Actually almost a quarter of Israeli society is not jewish. But all of Israeli society is guilty for the atrocities in Gaza.
Not just the privileged section.
Name me one Arab country that would take in and support desperate African refugees of another religion from a hostile country."
Chad,, Uganda, COngo etc etc.
Now answer me a question.
How is shooting a schoolgirl in the back, a child asleep in its bed, a peace activist waving a white flag autamatically justified because the person doing the killing is Israeli?
You have had your question answer, now answer mine
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Ref 210 TrueToo
Better yet; how about the thoughts of the man who coined the word genocide?
This is what Raphael Lemkin has to say about genocide:
There is enough blatant evidence readily available against Israel (according to this definition) that a legal secretary from a prosecutors office in Baraga County, Michigan could put together a solid case for the prosecution of Israeli officials on multiple counts of genocide against the Palestinians.
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In case you slimy Limeys and Euro fascist anti jewish elist snobs forgot the tiltle of this column is about Obama and not your slanted view of Israel. Simple fact Amerika will give Israel all of the weapons necessary to defend themselves against the rabble that has been trying to finish off the Jews since 1937 and secondly many of us have never forgotten how the palestines celebrated in the street after the attack on new york. We don't forget!!Bush will be back in four more years..
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207. At 10:32pm on 13 Mar 2009, TrueToo wrote:
Here's some information for those whose main contribution to the debate is to compare Israel to the Nazis and Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto:
Hezbollah does the Nazi salute, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem met Hitler and enthusiastically planned to implement the "Final Solution" - i.e. the genocide of the Jews - in Palestine, Iraq had a pro-Nazi government in the 1940s, Hamas has the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews in its charter and practically the last Jew has been driven out of most Arab countries".
Sorry how does any of this balderdash justify bombing a lebanese school?
If you do not like what someone says you shoot their family?
you do not like a charter so you shoot a child of five.
Wow is that what they do in the states?
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201. At 8:24pm on 13 Mar 2009, AndyPost wrote:
Ref. 184
The "taming of the American west" was ethnic cleansing and a terrible crime. To equate what the Israelis are doing now with what the U.S. government did then is to diminish the true extent of the mindless barbarism displayed in this country (to the cheers of most Americans at the time). There's not much we can do about it now except to try to stop it from happening again.
I do think (hope) that we can avoid such atrocious behavior in Palestine.
Israel has had the ability to wipe out the Palestinians (and most of the Arab states around them) since about 1967. They haven't used it nor have they even threatened to."
Really so Mr Liebman was just "joking".
The israeli slogan, "no arabs, no problem" is a kindly call to brotherhood.
Well thanks for making that clear.
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Max Blumenthal
And from the Wall Street Journal, a letter signed by 17 current and former ambassadors:Sad times for Democracy and a sane approach to the Middle East...the bleeding sore at the heart of most of America's foreign policy problems.Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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207. At 10:32pm on 13 Mar 2009, TrueToo wrote:
Here's some information for those whose main contribution to the debate is to compare Israel to the Nazis and Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto:
Largely frustrated in these attempts, Hamas and company turned increasingly to the rocket attacks, effectively turning large areas of southern Israel into places under siege and making normal life impossible. Israel endured this for years, only trying to neutralise the rocket launchers and kill the crews but the breaking point came when Hamas started firing longer range Iranian missiles at cities 40 kilometers from Gaza and stepping up the frequency of the rocket fire to as much as 100 rockets per day.
Hence the attack on Gaza."
Yes and the Germans came up with a lot of half witted lies as well.
In Gaza Israel admitted people were dying through lack of food medicine, supplies.
precisely like the ghetto.
And like the Ghetto they resolved not to die without fighting back.
Yep even arabs can feel like white pople.
Must be amazing for you to understand.
Here's another secret, were the Palestinians, black, asian etc they would respond in the same way.
Aren't human beings weird?
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An example of the attacks on Freeman
Which obviously had absolutely nothing to do with Palestine or AIPAC And, regarding AIPAC,Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peaceed
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Justin, shouldn't you consider changing the "Obama drift" topic for something more relevant? You may want to consider Michael Steele's drift to the left and the implications of his most recent remarks on American politics.
Hearing a RNC Chairman endorse abortion and same sex-marriage is more of a "drift" than the lame subject we have been discussing. His remarks are such a departure from Republican ideology that the only conclusion we can reach is that the party is in total disarray and without a leader capable of representing and articulating the social and fiscal conservatism that resulted in almost uninterrupted GOP control of the White House and Congress during last three decades.
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Ref 210 TrueToo
Now wait a second. I thought that guy Moses led the people of "Israel" into the "promised land" where they immediately started fighting with the local inhabitants to steal their land. At least that's the take I get from the "Genesis" story.
You heard of Moses, haven't you? He's that guy that brought down the "Ten Commandments" of the Judean god from some mountain while lost for 40 years in a rather small desert that had good roads already in existance.
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#227. saintDominick: "Justin, shouldn't you consider changing the "Obama drift" topic for something more relevant?"
And deprive so many of another chance to spew their one-sided views?!
Yoou're absolutely right of course, and though I rarely agree with amerika_first, he does write "the tiltle of this column is about Obama and not your slanted view of Israel. " He's wrong about "slimy Limeys and Euro fascist anti jewish elist snobs" though, since many of them are in fact American.
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David,
I don't see your problem. Justin's post is about Obama 'drifting', and uses the example one of Obama's appointees being forced to withdraw, or do you deny even that?
Surely the circumstances surrounding that withdrawal are legitimate for comment? Surely we should be able to discuss whether Obama has been seen to be too quick to succumb to pressure (as Justin does in his final to paragraphs)?
Is the source of the pressure and its nature not also a legitimate concern? Perhaps you believe there were other sources, but you have signally failed to suggest any.
What's your problem?
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Ref 229 David_Cunard
Okay. Let's discuss the reference to Pope Leo X. I have tried to understand what Justin was trying to invoke with his reference, but I am not certain why he is comparing Obama to Leo X.
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I don't really want to get into the conflict between Israel and its neighbors. I will leave that to others. While I have a bias in Favor of Israel, the arguments, over and over, just make me numb. In any case, those arguments can stand or fall on their own merits largely without reference to America.
What the last hundred and more postings (roughly) seem not to be discussing is what America's interests are in the middle east, or what they ought to be, entirely apart and aside from the dispute between Israelis and the Palestinians. For a start, one might ask whether, or why, America has any interest in this dispute? There may be many American citizens who have strong personal interests in this conflict, but what is the basis of America's institutional interest as a nation in this dispute?
(Another posting to follow)
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230 Ed Iglehart
Unfortunately the problem is that not one person here is giving an inch. One look and you know the post will be either pro Israel or pro Palestinian, with a few exceptions. I have not read any saying, "I see what you mean, I did not know that, Oh how interesting I must rethink my position," etc. etc. It's just back and forth, back and forth. Personally I think Israel's position is indefensible. Should anyone be interested in my thoughts.
Has there been any discussion about Obama succumbing to pressure? It appears to me he is trying hard to please everyone, but perhaps in the long run this will not work in his favour.
231 publiusdetroit
Neither do I, but the Pope is more your department. Although I just learned he was the last non-priest to be elected Pope, if that has anything to do with it.
How was your trip?
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231 publiusdetroit
I see after rereading Justin's post it was Camille Paglia who compared Obama to Leo X.
"Right now, the White House is starting to look like Raphael's scathing portrait of a pampered, passive Pope Leo X and his materialistic cardinals."
Although I still don't get the connection. Pampered, passive?
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American Policy in Asia Minor, the Levant, the Trans-Jordan, the Hejaz, the Trucial States, Mesopotamia, Persia, Transcaucasia, and Central Asia:
Since 1948 there is no area of the world in which America has consistently invested more treasure, more prestige, and, recently, more blood than the Trans-Jordan, whether directly or indirectly. It is difficult to see that it has achieved much that is of advantage to America.
Quite apart from the existence of Israel, America’s reliance on oil has led it to befriend, tolerate, support, prop-up, topple, turn a blind eye to, and replace some of the vilest regimes on earth. Would the cost of eliminating energy dependency on oil really have been greater than the cost of propping up a military dictatorship in Egypt, and another abhorrent dictatorship in Saudi Arabia?
Did meddling in the affairs of Iran from 1953 – 1979 turn out very well?
Did meddling in the Iran – Iraq war turn out very well? Too soon to tell, maybe better in 20 years, but not so good on present form.
Did meddling in the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan turn out very well? Too soon to tell the full cost of that adventure either, really, isn’t it?
Think of all the problems that the world would have been spared if not for the reliance on middle eastern oil.
And then, as a mere bonus on top, consider the cost of supporting Israel.
America has no strategic interests in the coastal strip running from Alexandria to Tyre. There was no American expenditure of money, blood, or prestige in this area prior to 1948. It simply was not in any way a factor in American decision making. It was completely irrelevant to American policy.
Consider how we would feel if, after a period of inward settlement in, say, Nova Scotia, or Maine, an influx of Zoroastrians decided to declare independence. We would certainly find it odd, to say the least. We might possibly resent their impertinence to some extent. We might do so for a considerable length of time.
At the same time, it is difficult to be patient with those who would push Israel into the sea. Theodore Herzl & Co., built their settlements from nothing, and built a vibrant first world economy in a land that has little water, too much heat, and not many natural resources. No matter how you feel about Israel, you have to respect people who have the ability to build a thriving economy and society out of, essentially, nothing. There is no other country in the region that has done anything close.
It would be much easier to sympathize with Israel’s detractors if Israel’s neighbors were democratic, had functioning civil institutions, had functioning economies, and so on. Instead, we see that Gaza, for example, is one of the worst hell-holes on earth. Poverty stricken, violent, median age 17 or 18 years, 70 % unemployment.
Israel may have done its best to destroy the Palestinian economy as a form of collective punishment, and may thereby merely have strengthened and empowered folks like Hamas, fair enough. But for all that, if they had stopped bombing Israel, had stopped firing rockets and so on, and concentrated on building a functioning economy instead, you have to think that the people of Gaza and the West Bank would now be far better off. It is tough to sympathize with liberation movements that send children and the mentally challenged out as suicide bombers. It is easy enough to imagine that if they ever “won” they would then build a prosperous and just nation just the way Robert Mugabe has done. Algerian independence did not bring love, joy and happiness, either. Enough of that. This is the kind of stuff that leads to nothing positive.
While western nations can, and should, support democracies, America has become hostage to the internal intrigues of Israeli coalition making in a way that would be inappropriate in any country, anywhere, and to an extent that is out of all proportion to any conceivable strategic interest that America could possibly have there. This involvement, which at times is blind and unquestioning to the point of imbecility has cost America (and its allies) dearly. We are heartily hated by many in the region.
Be that as it may, for that huge cost, America does not seem to have any bona fide strategic interest in this conflict.
You have to think that the blood and treasure spent in this region, that has produced almost nothing positive, and that has left westerners hated from one end of the region to the other has largely been a waste. How many wind turbines could have been built for the amount that has been poured down this bottomless sinkhole since 1948? 500,000? 1,000,000? No matter how bad an investment you think wind power is, it couldn’t possibly have been a greater waste of money.
On the other hand, there is a natural ally in the region for America and for western countries generally. That country has the region's largest population, and a mixed generally market based economy. It is the region’s largest military power, a country with a culture and presence extending back over a thousand years, a vibrant pluralistic democracy with a predominantly western economy and outlook:
Turkey.
This is a nation with a huge history, and a huge future, with knowledge, expertise and interests and influence across the region. Ataturk’s vision is not in conflict with western views of the world. Turkey is a member of NATO, and would like to be a member of the EU. Turkey would certainly be a lot better EU member than Romania, Bulgaria, Cyprus or Greece currently are, and of far more importance. This is the natural ally of the west, yet Turkey is treated so shabbily by many European countries.
America has been an ally and a supporter of Turkey for decades. That is a relationship that makes sense.
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Ref 233 timewaitsfornoman
The only take I get on the Leo connection is his indulgences(?). I'm not certain I get that either.
I had a marvelous trip. Did some climbing with my son in the Rockies in both Wyoming and Colorado. Breathtaking! Both literally and figuratively. It has been years since I have climbed above 7,000 feet. We climbed the Twin Sisters in Rocky Mountain National Park at 11,400. It was great! Temperatures were in the 16-21c down on the level. No snow!
Saw your earlier post. Happy to hear you had a safe trip through the snow. Petrol was as cheap as $1.55 a gallon in Wyoming. How was the land of Dixie?
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As as a fellow Ivy League graduate, I admire Obama, admire his succinct cleverness and his manifest confidence. An eventual return to world prosperity will inevitably have to find its way through the American economy, even for someone who lives in Canada. All the best to him, for he inherited a Republican mess of porridge. A U.S. supreme court judge once entitled his biography, "My Enemies are getting Older", I'm afraid president Obama's enemies are getting more numerous and more vocal so very, very early in his administration. LET'S GIVE THE YOUNG MAN A CHANCE, he may be right after all.
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Ref 235 interestedforeigner
Well stated.
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Ref 235 Interestedforeigner
I saw a huge wind-turbine "farm" east of Council Bluffs, Iowa. Hundreds of turbines lazily turning on a ridge in the prairie. Tried to find out how large of an area received power from this complex, but the gas station and fast-food clerks where quite oblivious to there environment.
At least the skies were not smoggy all day.
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#231. publiusdetroit: "Okay. Let's discuss the reference to Pope Leo X. I have tried to understand what Justin was trying to invoke with his reference, but I am not certain why he is comparing Obama to Leo X."
Perhaps it's because when he became Pope, Leo was reported to have said to his brother "Since God has given us the papacy, let us enjoy it." Or possibly because he was lavish in his charitable work - retirement homes, hospitals, convents, discharged soldiers, pilgrims, poor students, exiles, the sick and disabled. Looks a lot like the goals of President Obama.
#230. Ed Iglehart: "What's your problem?"
The same strident arguments from both sides which have been repeated ad nauseam since the middle of last summer, if not before. "Drifting" is not simply about the Middle East, but from other goals - for example, signing the "imperfect" bill when many feel it is loaded with pork. Surely that's a drift? Health care reform may go on the back burner, another drift. And see above.
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237. Berolinum: Hear, hear.
I feel the same way.
I will submit some longer postings in a while that may appear critical of President Obama, but really, would anyone else have done any better? Jed Bartlett, I suppose! I have been pleasantly surprised by President Obama's performance so far.
239. Publius.
Thanks. You know how I love them. I find them so beguilingly beautiful to watch.
I wonder if that field was built fairly recently, because I didn't see one when we drove through Council Bluffs the last time.
There is another huge field visible from I-80 on the north side of the road between Cheyenne and Laramie, too.
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128, Enoch.
"Israel is not a greedy property developer as you. They are a credible family and they are interested in their family home for 5000 years. They will defend their cherished home to the last drop of blood. Its priceless! "
It would seem to me that the Arabs' heritage goes back as far as the Jews.' The difference is that there were not many Jews living there in recent history. And when the Jews to take back their so-called homeland, they disposessed the Arabs. Your sense of justice is kind of fuzzy.
But to make things right, since mankind as we know it started in Africa, we should all return to Africa. It might be kind of crowded, but it's our homeland, right? Anyway, we can chase out the people who are living there now.
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215. David_Cunard wrote:
"It's only by extension that AIPAC etc. has been brought into the discussion - the same people making the same arguments time and time again. If the manufacture and origin of Jaffa Juice was to be raised here, it would soon turn into the "debate" above."
That's true. Note how this particular thread developed into an Israel-bashing exercise by the usual obsessives:
27. Simon21 wrote:
"One wonders if Aipac and the other Israeli appeaseers realise how much damage they do their cause by constantly overplaying their hand."
34. Ed Ingehart wrote:
"The Power of AIPAC"
45. happylaze wrote:
"36
"And now trying to appoint and anti-Israeli Intelligence chief???"
Is it more acceptable that they are anti Palestinian then?
It seems to me that Mr webb would agree with you."
58. bere54 wrote:
"40: "It is one of the most progressive nations in the world."
Israel??? Progressive???"
And so on and so forth. In fact, the broader issue is that this Freeman character doesn't appear to have the interests of America at heart in any way, shape or form.
"....where is Ms Marbles when we need her"
Why would you need allmymarbles? What she knows about the Israeli-Arab conflict would fit into the head of a pin. Don't forget, she insists that Iran is not funding, training and arming Arab terrorists for their attacks on Israeli civilians.
219. Simon21 wrote:
"The palestinians are the oiriginal inhabitants ...."
Only if you get your information from Palestinian school textbooks.
Your comments and your quotes of others' comments are too long and rambling. You can't expect people to read them all.
220. publiusdetroit wrote:
"There is enough blatant evidence readily available against Israel (according to this definition) that a legal secretary from a prosecutors office in Baraga County, Michigan could put together a solid case for the prosecution of Israeli officials on multiple counts of genocide against the Palestinians."
Nonsense. Read your own copy and paste job and you will see it's a perfect description of the Arab and broader Muslim assault on the Jews even before the establishment of Israel and certainly ever since.
Israel does its best to target Palestinian terrorists and differentiate them from the civilians. The Arabs and the Muslims don't even limit their attacks to Jews living in Israel. They kill Jews wherever they are.
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243. At 07:52am on 14 Mar 2009, TrueToo wrote:
"Note how this particular thread developed into an Israel-bashing exercise by the usual obsessives"
I have noted how you and one other have, as so often turned it into an anti-Arab/Islam/Palestinian thread, and again, as usual, are impervious to other arguments.
I am sick of it. Please take your obsessions elsewhere.
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233. timewaitsfornoman wrote:
"Personally I think Israel's position is indefensible."
I hope not. Surrounded as she is by bloodthirsty mobs craving to bring her down, Israel needs all the defence she can get.
242. allmymarbles wrote:
"It would seem to me that the Arabs' heritage goes back as far as the Jews.'"
Untrue.
"The difference is that there were not many Jews living there in recent history."
True. The Jews were a minority in the area for some time.
"And when the Jews to take back their so-called homeland, they disposessed the Arabs."
Untrue.
In fact, the Arabs dispossessed themselves. Unwilling to even allow the Jews a small sliver of the original British Mandate for the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine, the Arabs rejected the UN Partition proposal of 1947 - even though the Jews were by then a majority in the area set aside for the Jewish state. Had the Arabs accepted it, they would have had a state right there and then and Israel would have been a fraction of the size it is today.
Instead, the Arabs increased their attacks on the nascent Jewish state, culminating in their attempted war of annihilation in '48-'49 and continuing through wars and terror campaigns right up until the present.
Given the history, you would think that the "international community" would in 1967 have accepted the legitimacy of a besieged nation retaining territory it had gained as a result of the latest genocidal assault against it. However, in a move stranger than fiction, UN Resolution 242 required that Israel return much of the territory it had gained, and essentially withdraw to the vulnerable position it had been in prior to the '67 war, and only required of the Arab attackers that they stop their attacks, failing to even name the Arab countries involved.
This was an immoral and inexplicable position to take since it meant there was no penalty for an act of genocidal aggression against another country. Nazi Germany paid for its crimes by losing land to the countries it had attacked. But the same justice and morality somehow doesn't apply to the Arabs.
Immoral, certainly, but perhaps not inexplicable. After all, there was Arab oil. And there was also the Arab-friendly US State Department.
It's obvious that since 1967, the US has become considerably more supportive of Israel. Let's hope that remains the case because if Israel falls (and it might fall without the US) it will be a major victory for Islamic terror. And the West, of course, will be next.
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245. At 09:10am on 14 Mar 2009, TrueToo wrote
" if Israel falls (and it might fall without the US) it will be a major victory for Islamic terror. And the West, of course, will be next."
Please stop confusing Islam and Muslims with Arabs, whether from the Palestinian Mandate or not. And as for a 'domino effect' in which we will see black (or green) flags with verses from the Koran flying over Buckingham Palace, the Elysee or the White House, that is just the kind of nonsensical scaremongeing that has led to the discrediting of one US interventionist foreign adventure after another.
It's time to change, isn't it? To get a broader, more embracing, more realistic view of the world? Instead of the propaganda of the American (and Israeli) right?
(Oh, and by the way, those Arab countries with the oil have not actually been such vociferous, or active supporters of Palestinians in the past. I see, yet again, an irritating trait developing of Americans confounding a whole bunch of 'enemies' together: currently it's Hezbollah-Hamas-Iran-Palestine-Pakistan-Saudi Arabia . . .Now which of those are notArab?)
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244. british-ish,
Keep your shirt on, old chap. You have a scroll bar, why don't you just scroll past? You are also a native of one of the world's foremost democracies, which is a champion of human rights and freedom of speech. Please respect the rights of others to voice their opinions.
I mentioned this in no. 243:
"In fact, the broader issue is that this Freeman character doesn't appear to have the interests of America at heart in any way, shape or form."
Strikes me that's a fair starting point for a debate not dominated by Israel-Palestine.
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Foreigner (235), an excellent post!
Indeed!The Zionists brought considerable resources to the task, most notably the very generous support of wealthy benefactors.But, as we have been reminded, the proper matter under discussion is whether or not our new president is "drifting", and we have witnessed his failure to support his appointees (and their appointees) against influences that some of us consider less than benign.
It's obvious that I consider the influence of the "Israel lobby" to be excessive, and further that the result on American foreign policy (uncritical support of Israel) lies at the heart of most of our problems in the region, including our invasion of Iraq, the sabre-rattling towards Iran, and, through the "blowback" and other inept meddling, the mess that is Afghanistan.
Of course, the "Israel lobby" is not solely responsible for these problems, but its fingerprints are everywhere in the matter. The Neoconservative "movement" is deeply reflective of the same goals, and many of the central operators in the (now defunct) Project for the New American Century (PNAC) were and remain pro-Israel zealots.
My position is that it is unhealthy for any lobby to have too much influence on the conduct of national affairs, and certainly on the selections of personnel by a President who was elected to a large extent on the basis of reducing such influences...So, yes, it does seem Obama is drifting, and it saddens me more than I can express.
I do not believe there is any avenue to peace while Israel (through the undoubted power of it's lobby) retains its immunity as America's favoured (and spoiled) child. Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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246. british-ish wrote:
"Please stop confusing Islam and Muslims with Arabs, whether from the Palestinian Mandate or not."
I'm not sure of your point. I'm aware that Pakistanis and Iranians are not Arabs. But they hate Israel and the Jews as much as do the Arabs.
Don't underestimate the scope and ambition of radical Islam and its designs on the West. Many cities in Europe already have no-go areas for non-Muslims and there is an increasing clamour for sharia law to be introduced in the West. And then, of course, there is Islamic terror aimed at the West.
I don't see why this is "scaremongering" or "propaganda." Radical Islam makes no secret of its aims and objectives and the actions of its followers bear this out.
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TT,
The two are not the same. Israel is as much a problem for many Jews as for any Arab (or Persian, Pakistani or Afghani)Salaam, etc.
ed
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ref #248
than by the same token do you agree that theArablobby inthe U.N which promotes resolutions only against Israel is an impidment as well?
I hear many people say let the U.N take a hand, but considering the recent tenure of the despicable Kofi Annan how can they ever be trusted?
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ref #218
Simple Simon refused to answer except with insults.
He can't or won't address the fact that Hamas can't even make peace with other Palestinians.
Let Israel did out this cancer to the world and then maybe the Palestinians will be wiulling to negoiate humbly instead of making unrealistic demands.
Newsflash, The Palestinians and Arabs lost their wars of agression: They don't set the peace terms!!
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251. MagicKirin wrote:
"I hear many people say let the U.N take a hand, but considering the recent tenure of the despicable Kofi Annan how can they ever be trusted?"
True, I watched Ban Ki Moon's speedy transformation from a fairly objective individual to one who now knows the meaningless PC patter he's supposed to spout off by heart. The closer he got to memorising it, the happier he looked.
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Checking the Pulse
Peace and perspective[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
Focus on GazaKen Loach
ed
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236 publiusdetroit
The land of Dixie
It was good thank you. Warm and sunny everyday, pleasant people with a variety of accents. No rock climbing for me. Miles walked on the beach though.
The surprises: As I said gas/petrol prices. We are happily paying approx. $3.30/Cdn US gallon down from approx. $6.00. I noticed cigarette prices are $3.50-4.00. We pay over $6/US. Why are they not taxed more to bring in revenue? And food prices were a shocker! We also have many things made in China but I was unprepared to find everything in the souvenir shops made there. Thought of all the US dollars just sailing across the ocean to China.
Excellent roads, but drivers unsure of the concept that the passing lane is for passing.
Windmills close to the Canadian border on I 87. The US border crossing looked like an armed camp. Crossing back into Canada a nice man, "Only the two of you then? Any cigarettes or alcohol? No? OK" and we were on our way.
The parking lots full of Ontario, Michigan and Ohio plates (so thought of you and Tim). Few Quebecers as they continue on to Florida. They are not driving all that way for warm, they're looking for hot!
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76.EnochJoshua wrote:
"no matter what you say, the land of Israel rightfully belongs to Israel"
On the basis of ..... their own religious text. Hmmmm. Their book says that their god gave it to them, and so be it.
To whom does the land of America rightfully belong.
Perhaps the Israelis should team up with the Native Americans and use some of that casino profit for lobbying!
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245 TrueToo
I firmly believe in Israel's right to exist. What I do not believe in is violence and arguments about who was there first, who started it and innocent people dying - on both sides.
Living in Quebec with a large percentage of Francophones who want to separate from Canada I live "partition" everyday. They claim they were here first (conveniently forgetting about the Natives) and want their own "homeland." This piece of land does not look as it did in the 1600s. We have rehashed the past ad nauseam, but there is no going back. We must all work on living peacefully together with no violence. So far we have succeeded.
This is not a cliche; Montreal has a large Jewish population and I have many Jewish friends. I would take to the streets if anything happened to them solely because they are Jewish.
Everyone is born equal. The Palestinians also have a right to exist.
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Ref 255 timewaitsfornoman
That seems to be an east of the Mississippi problem. The drivers out west understand that the left lane is for passing. They also tend to drive the speed limit (75 mph on most Interstate highways). Eastern drivers call the left lane, "the fast lane". Zoom! Too many think they are NASCAR drivers; but lack the skill sets.
My 21 year-old son drove his first leg of the journey through Nebraska. We stopped for fuel in North Platte and drove around town. He was really surprised that everyone was driving the speed limit (30 mph) in town.
Canadian Customs officers have always been far more pleasant than their U.S. counterparts. No less vigilant, mind you. Just more pleasant. In my younger days I used to find perverse pleasure in smuggling something innocuous, like a couple of Cuban cigars or a tin of tea from Red China, back across the border to the States. Never was caught by our less than pleasant Customs officers.
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Ref 256 RomeStu
We had enough to do with armed, amoral land-grabbers, Stu. I don't think the native tribes have any wish to abet the mad conquest of Eretz Israel;-)
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117 amerika_first
"Soon Amerika will be like the UK. Multi plural society, full of debt, no real wealth to speak of, able to be pushed around due to a weak and ineffective leader, terrorist running amock and afraid of its own shadow."
That's capitalism for you. Free market forces at work: Eventually every country balances out. You can't be at the top for ever! Chew on that.
Everyone:- The Israeli-Palestine conflict is pretty much the most important conflict that needs to be solved to help the Western world move on.
Solving this conflict would literally stop all Arabic terrorism. US-Iran ties could mellow and they can have nuclear power plants (that they are already legally entitled too!!). America could save billions of dollars on fighting terrorism and funding Israel's existence. Maybe those dollars could go back into the USA and actually educate a few more people?
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re. 235. Interestedforeigner:
As far as Israel building it's economy from nothing: that's not quite accurate. As a result of the Holocaust and the massive migration of European Jews to what became Israel after the Second World War, there was an influx of highly educated, very talented, technically proficient people. Far above what was in neighboring countries. If those same people had migrated to, say, Syria, there would have been a similar boom in Syria. Plus, there was reparations money paid by Germany for a long time and fund-raising in Jewish communities all over the world for the support of Israel. There still is. That's not to minimize the talent and hard work that went into the creation of the Israeli economy, just to put it in perspective.
The strange thing is that the influx of European Jews and the creation of the State of Israel meant a Palestinian diaspora not unlike that of Jews in Europe. Palestinians for a long time were among the better-educated, more Westernized, and more secular of Arab groups. In the Arab world, the exiled Palestinians became the engineers and doctors.
A long time ago, before the rise of the settler movement, I spent a summer in Israel. This was not a return-to-your-roots visit; I'm not Jewish. I was there on a professional project. I liked both the Israelis and the Arabs I came into contact with. For me, the transformation of Israeli and Palestinian society into camps of extremists has been painful to watch. It's not at all like what I remembered.
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Ref 241 Interestedforeigner
Saw that one in Wyoming too. This one seemed to be much larger.
The other thing that struck me were the number of ethynol distilleries on the plains. There's a whole lot of Moonshining going on in them thar prairies!
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235, Interested: "It is tough to sympathize with liberation movements that send children and the mentally challenged out as suicide bombers."
Thank you for that. I made that point long long ago on another thread and was nastily attacked for it.
As for Turkey, there are pockets there where "honor" killings are carried out and the government turns a blind eye.
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255, timewaits -
You were in the land of cheap tobacco. Around here I understand a pack of cigarettes is $5 or $6, due to taxes.
"Crossing back into Canada a nice man, "Only the two of you then? Any cigarettes or alcohol? No? OK" and we were on our way."
They didn't ask you about pepper spray or mace? One time I drove across the border with my daughter, then in college, and blithely answered "No" to that question. As we drove off into Canada, my daughter silently dug into her purse and pulled out a small container of pepper spray! I was the one who had advised her to carry it and had completely forgotten. I felt like such a criminal. On the way home, we hid it under the car seat, though it's legal here.
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timewaitsfornoman
There was a notation in a post on this thread of the threat of Sharia law infiltrating into western legal systems. I cannot seem to locate the post; but it brought up a question to ask you.
I have it in my mind that somewhere in Canada (probably Toronto) the legal system began an experiment in conjunction with the local Islamic community to use certain aspects of Sharia law when dealing with issues (primarily domestic issues) that effected the Islamic community. If I recall correct, there was an Islamic advisory panel set up to help in the resolution of local legal conflicts within the Islamic community.
Do you have any knowledge of this? If so, has it been successful?
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TrueToo (various posts)
A couple of corrections:
The exodus of ordinary Palestinians was in response to a few instances of atrocities by Jewish extremist groups against Palestinians at the beginning of the 1948 conflict, plus a lot of propaganda by neighboring Arab governments. Basically they were refugees who were told they were in terrible danger and should leave and were promised that after the Israelis were defeated, they could come home and reclaim their property. Then, of course, the Israelis won and the neighboring Arab states never made good on their promises. The Palestinians became permanent refugees and pawns in the machinations of other Arab countries.
It was the lack of action by other Arab states that led to the creation in 1964 of the PLO, which was and is a secular organization. Israel's refusal to negotiate with the PLO and the rise of the settler movement meant that Palestinians watched as land in the West Bank was snapped up by extremist Israelis and the PLO was made to look powerless. That and the corruption of individual PLO leaders directly led to the creation of Islamist groups like Hamas and Hisbollah. Palestinians had not historically adhered to a fundamentalist version of Islam before that.
Keep in mind that the seizure of land by Israel in the 1967 war was never intended to be permanent. That land (with the exception of Jerusalem) was intended to be a bargaining chip for an eventual permanent peace settlement. The building of settlements throughout the West Bank in the 80s and 90s has made that idea nonsensical. Those settlements didn't exist when I was there in 1981 and were, in fact, initially discouraged (even forcibly removed) by the Israeli government. But that all changed as settler and fundamentalist groups became powerful members of coalition governments in Israel.
So Israel itself has helped to create the conditions that have led to the present stalemate. Any peace settlement will necessitate the removal of numerous fundamentalist Israeli groups from land in any future Palestinian state, which will be terribly divisive for Israeli society. Even a very liberal peace-oriented Israeli government will hesitate in doing that. And the present Israeli government is anything but peace-oriented.
The only times the Israelis have made any progress towards peace with their neighbors has been they were pushed by the United States. That was true of the peace deal signed with Sadat and Egypt (under Carter), and the deal signed with Arafat and the PLO (under Clinton). Both of those deals have essentially held up, even under provocation. It's going to take similar pressure from the US to obtain any future peace settlements. We once again have a Democratic president. Maybe we can get there this time.
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The key was 1967, not 1948.
After one of the most spectacular military operations of post world war 2 history, Israel having roundly humiliated the armed forces of several Arab states, notably Egypt, was in a strong but ultimately very hard to sustain situation.
Defending the gains of '67 was going to be very expensive, US aid back then was not as it is now.
They had, with these gains, the ability to dictate a comprehensive peace settlement with it's enemies.
Land for peace, your land back for a non aggression pact.
Nasser then leading Egypt, would not likely have ever agreed, but by 1970 he was dead anyway.
We know what his successor would later do.
But instead, Israel, understandably confident in victory, would maintain a status quo until very nearly facing defeat after the surprise Arab attacks of 1973.
(Which lead to the oil crisis, with great negative effects of the world economy).
The lesson of 1973 was that Israel, even with increased US support, could not properly defend the gains of 1967 without risking a greater defeat.
This paved the way for the agreement of 1979 with Egypt, which gave back the biggest 1967 gain of all, the Sinai.
No conflict with Egypt since either.
The rest of the issues around the 1967 gains have not been addressed, until they are, there will be this dangerous conflict.
There is no rival superpower propping up the Arab regimes now, has not been for 20 years.
Militarily, the gap between them and Israel widens still.
(Note the score of some 70-0 in favour of the Israeli Air Force against Syria in 1982).
What can HAMAS actually do?
Their rockets are crude and indiscriminate, about as deadly as a terrorist car bomb, at most.
So I have to ask, those who defend completely the Israeli response to these HAMAS weapons, would have have defended a response by the British, after IRA bombing of civillians, with fighter aircraft, artillery and other heavy weapons, against the built up Republican enclaves of the Falls Road in Belfast, or the Creggan in Londonderry?
Given the fondness many in the US had for these terrorists anyway, I think the answer is clear.
In the 1970's, (perhaps since too), Israel has (rather like Iran and Libya) conducted assassinations of people they don't like, in other countries, Western countries who while not as pro Israel as the US, were certainly not enemies either.
Culminating in 1974 when in Norway, Mossad agents murdered a completely innocent man due to mistaken identity. (Was he the only one?)
Would it have been acceptable then, for MI6, the SAS, or some other British security organisations, working undercover in America, to have shot IRA funders, arms suppliers, in some cases convicted terrorists on the run (of which none were ever extradited to the UK), in a similar manner to how Israel went after those it deemed a threat?
It's more than just this double standard towards the Arabs which puzzle some of us.
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261, timohio: "Plus, there was reparations money paid by Germany for a long time "
When I was in Israel, all the taxicabs were Mercedes. I was told this was due to the reparations from Germany.
And another piece of trivia: Many years ago I was in a cab in Washington D.C. and the cab driver mentioned he was Palestinian, so I told him I was Jewish. He asked me for a date and said we would marry and bring peace to the Middle East. Unfortunately (he was very good-looking and personable) I was otherwise involved.
So is the current state of affairs all my fault?
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re. 255. timewaitsfornoman:
Taxes are not higher on gasoline and tobacco because of powerful lobbies in Congress. You're right, we would be better off if we reduced consumption on both by raising taxes on them.
Souvenirs made in Asia: That has been true for a long time. I remember as a child buying "Indian" themed souvenirs (sorry Publius, I was a kid then) in northern Michigan, only to turn them over and see the word "Japan" on the underside. At least the deer hide moccasins are still made in Minnesota. I think.
But the Chinese are making souvenirs for the whole world. My wife, who is an amateur glass artist, says that there are warnings online that souvenir pieces of Italian "Murano" glass are actually made in China.
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245, untrue.
The life of a fanatic is really easy. Unlike the rest of us he does not have to rely on facts.
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Ref 268 Bere54
I don't know. But if we can set the two of you back up again, would you give it a try?
Then again...
If you had married the Palestinian; got caught smuggling pepper spray into Canada; been labeled a terrorist: CSIS might have spirited you back into the U.S. where one of the, far too many, national security departments would have slipped you aboard a midnight plane to Syria for a fun-filled ride on a water-board and other demented pleasures.
So you see; everything works for a purpose.
(Sorry, timewaits. I couldn't resist a poke at CSIS)
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Ref 269 timohio
Not a problem, Tim. While visiting family in the UP, my father made me put a pair of moccasins back on the shelf when he saw the "Made in Japan" stamp on the them. He fought on Saipan and did not hold the Japanese people in high esteem, at that time.
The moccasins were so cool, though.
We did buy some deerskin and he taught me how to make my own.
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I had to look at the top of the site to make sure that this wasn't fox news. lol.
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Andypost (@192)
Really? How many rockets does it take to break a ceasefire?
Give me a break.
& Trueplop (@196)
Nonsense. Hamas doesn't know what a ceasefire is. . .
You should at least allow a decent interval of time to elapse before you start your historical revisionism.
Well you are the expert when it comes to revising his history. Moreover, you have been informed of this truth many times.
Even the Israeli PM's spokesperson Mark Regev knows that Hamas didn't brake the ceasefire.
Israel never observed the terms of the June 2008 ceasefire. They broke it within days and Hamas then responded. Israel never lifted it's blockade of Gaza either.
Israel is known for breaking its word when it comes to peace agreements with the Palestinians.
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re. 268. bere54:
"Unfortunately (he was very good-looking and personable) I was otherwise involved."
Did you keep his phone number? Look in the bottom of your purse. It might still be there.
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243, untrue.
"....where is Ms Marbles when we need her"
Untrue quotes this but does not give the comment number or who made it.
I very rarely comment on the Israeli/Palestinian question except to correct an error of fact, or give historical background. My focus is on the underlying problem, not the emotional quagmire. I also see the Israeli/Palestinian question as being part of the larger problem of our political manipulation of the Middle East.
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266, timohio.
"The exodus of ordinary Palestinians was in response to a few instances of atrocities by Jewish extremist groups against Palestinians at the beginning of the 1948 conflict...."
It went further than that. They were driven out systemically for years. It is worthwhile to note that the heads of both extremist groups (the Stern Gang and the Irgun) eventually became Israeli prime ministers.
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David J. Rothfopf, author of Superclass The Global Power Elite and the World They Are Making, who is pro-Isreal belives that Freeman have the job because of his knowledge of foreign affairs.
But since the US citizens lost control of Congress in in 2000, only AIPAC and what Mersheimer and Walt is The Isreal Lobby, call the Isreal Lobby the tail that wags US foreign policy.
John W. Dean along with Noam Chomsky report that these American led organizations care more for the welfare of Isreal than they do for the United States.
Thereby my vote for change did not count for anything.
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Ref 274, dceilar
"Israel never observed the terms of the June 2008 ceasefire."
One of the most telling moments about Israeli long term intentions came after the Annapolis summit when President George W. Bush, naively, announced that an accord was possible before the end of the year, only to be rebuked by the Israeli PM who told him - and the world - without the slightest amibiguity that no such thing was going to take place.
Unfortunately, the debate about this issue usually centers on recrimination, historical revisionism, immature threats and insults, and a desire for revenge that does not augur a solution for many years to come. The hatred and distrust that dominate negotiations is further exacerbated by our decision to provide financial, military, and unconditional moral support to Israel while at the same time condemning the Palestinian leadership for the audacity of standing up for their rights as citizens of the world.
Finding a solution requires good will on both parts. The ineffective Palestinian rocket launches must come to an end, American Orthodox Jews must stop fanning the flames of hatred and exclusion, European Ashkenazi immigration must end to alleviate or eliminate the need for illegal settlements to accomodate the influx of new comers, and the brutal incursions and massacres of recent years must not be repeated.
Until unilateral aid to Israel comes to an end, Israel withdraws from its illegal settlements, and the inhumane blockade of Gaza comes to an end the chances of stability in the Palestinian territories is highly unlikely; which may be the reason for the draconian blockade imposed on them. We like to trumpet Israel's right to exist, but few ever mention the right of the Semitic Palestinians to live in peace and freedom in their ancestral homeland.
Above all, the formula for a solution must be based on human rights. not religious ideology, cultural and political biases, or geopolitical imperatives.
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Ref 116, Amerikafirst
"Blame Bush all you want but after 6 months it is not becuase of GWB but rather of Barack Husein Obama making. Incompentcy and ineptness rolled up into one."
Well, if President Obama is responsible for the Israeli-Palestinian impasse because he has been in office for six weeks (not six months) I think it is fair to say that President Bush was responsible for 9/11 because he was in office for 8 months when that dreadful event took place.
You can't have it both ways Amerika, and just because Rush, Coulter, FOX, the KKK, and the neo-Nazis say so does not make it so...
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If President Obama had had the nerve to speak up for the best man for the job, Charles Freeman would have been a shoe in. However, I cannot completely blame Mr. Obama. I blame those Neo-Liberals who "helped him into office." They are the Machivillis pulling the strings.
Obama was helped because of the one unique he possesses: blackness. There has never been an African American appointed of President of the United States, therefore he would "change the subject" of what they knew was to come at the end of 2008: Political and financial desaster. The crisis we are in worldwide is only a surprise to the Religious Right who staked all their hope on the Second Coming.
A change of subject was needed in order to avert the social desaster that was to come and as Michael Lerner states in Jews and Blacks Let the Healing Begin, something more horrible than the 1930s was about to decend on the peoples of the United States.
With the defeat of Freeman, the peoples of the US lost this time. But given the situation that will be created in the Middle East, I am sure Mr. Freeman will be welcomed abroad as more dire situations develope in the Middle East and in Afghanistan, and with our foreign banker, China. After all, Mr. Freeman does speak Chinese.
By this time we will be in such dire diplomatic straights until perhaps even I will regain my faith in Mr. Obama and the Democratic Party.
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279, saintD.
"Above all, the formula for a solution must be based on human rights. not religious ideology, cultural and political biases, or geopolitical imperatives."
Shudda, woudda, coudda. It will be based on politics, and politics does not care about human rights.
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re. 277. allmymarbles:
I blame Ariel Sharon for a lot of this. He courted the settler movement as a route to power the same way American conservatives at about the same time courted the Christian extreme right. Always a bad idea to have your political legitimacy dependent on support from fanatics. For one thing, they turn on you if you try to compromise.
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re. 277. allmymarbles:
"It went further than that. They were driven out systemically for years."
True. There was sustained pressure which caused many to emigrate (probably including Bere54's taxi driver). A lot came to the Detroit area to work in the auto factories. When I was in East Jerusalem in 1981, everyone seemed to have a relative in Dearborn, Michigan, where I was living at the time ("My cousin lives there; perhaps you know him..."). But the biggest single wave came with the '48 war. That created the big refugee camps in Jordan and Lebanon, which were the initial recruiting grounds for the PLO.
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283, timohio.
Why does everyone forget the role of America in Israeli actions? Do you really think they act without a nod from us? Or at least tacit consent? We give Israel weapons of mass destruction. We give them lots of money. What does that tell you? If the administration disapproved of their actions it would cut them off.
Yes, the Jewish vote is important, but not that important. Jews make up only a very small portion of our population. They are far outnumbered by Hispanics, blacks, Catholics, protestants, and maybe even Moslems. So it has to be something else, something more basic. Look to see where Israel fits into our foreign policy. That is where you will find the answer.
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283, timohio, addendum.
Does the Israeli lobby pay off our brave and noble politicians. I should think so. Add that t the mix.
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Ref 282, Marbles
"Shudda, woudda, coudda. It will be based on politics, and politics does not care about human rights."
Absolutely right. Politics, influenced by economic and geopolitical goals, are and will remain the main reason for not finding a solution to this problem for many years to come. If we were really serious about this, we would stop all aid until a settlement was reached, but even a hint of such audacious proposition would elicit immediate impeachment proceedings on charges of high treason.
In fairness to the USA, I think there have been some opportunities and genuine attempts to find a solution in the pastshowed so much hatred and distrust that nothing meaningful came came out of those attempts to find a solution. It almost seems as if both sides are benefitting from the mayhem and are willing to sacrifice life to achieve whatever their narrow goals may be.
To be fair, Yassir Arafat was as intransigent as Ariel Sharon and other Israeli leaders when he derailed the deals negotiated by the Carter and Clinton Administrations; and the Annapolis summit was, clearly, a sham and nothing more than a photo-op.
In the interim, our right wing crusaders continue to demonize the Palestinians, and the liberal left continues to find excuses for the intransigence of the latter in what seems like an endless litany of misguided accusations that ignore the unfortunate reality that people are suffering, thousands have perished, and an entire region has been de-stabilized by this conflict.
The main beneficiary of the status quo has been the arms industry, and the "re-building" gang that operates in the ME and Persian Gulf region, who continue to thrive at the expense of innocent civilians on both sides of this conflict and its larger cause: the infamous "war on terror".
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284, timohio: ("My cousin lives there; perhaps you know him...").
Veering off topic again (was there a topic?), when I was in Lanark, Scotland, about ten years ago, my kids and I were besieged in a pub as soon as the pubflies (cannot that be a word?) realized we were American. "I have a brother in Chicago . . . "My uncle lives in Texas . . ." "Do you know my . . . " It seems that no matter how big a city, a country, there is hope . . . I suspect they were just teasing us. Then again, there does seem to be a need to always try to find a connection between peoples. It's a small world . . .
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284, timohio.
"That created the big refugee camps in Jordan and Lebanon, which were the initial recruiting grounds for the PLO."
When I was living in Lebanon I knew some of the politically active Palestinians. They were receiving small monthly stipends from Gamal Abdul Nasser, and were in contact with compatriots in Jerusalem.
The Lebanese did not like the Palestinians. They thought they were arrogant. They also thought the Israelis were arrogant. They had a saying, "To know a Palestinian is to be pro-Israeli. To know and Israeli is to be pro-Palestinian."
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#265. publiusdetroit: "There was a notation in a post on this thread of the threat of Sharia law infiltrating into western legal systems."
The only reference I can see is #249. TrueToo, who wrote "there is an increasing clamour for sharia law to be introduced in the West."
He's correct, despite some British naysayers - one just needs to read The Times and The Telegraph to see what is happening in the UK. As for Canada, just Google 'sharia law canada' and the answer/s are there.
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ref #285
Well it took a while Marbles but you finally stumbled into it.
The U.S supports Israel for non monetary, non Jewish cabal reasons:
1. It is the moral thing to do
2. Israel is an allie in the fight against Islamic terrorism which is represented by Hamas and Hezbollah
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ref #281
I know it will be difficult for the Palestinian sympathizers on this board but answer this without blasting Israel or AIPAC.
Since other nominees including Tom Daschle and Bill Richardson have been disqualfied because of financial improprities how can Freeman be accepted?
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287, saintD.
Failproof plan for peace between Israel and Palestine (presuming that is what the U.S. wants): Any side that attacks the other, for any reason whatsoever, loses American aid. Peace will be achieved as soon as the checks fail to arrive.
Voila!
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Ref 286, Marbles
"Does the Israeli lobby pay off our brave and noble politicians. I should think so. Add that t the mix."
Perhaps, but what we can say with absolute certainty is that Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid, to the tune of $3.5B a year, the largest recipient of US military aid, without technological restrictions, and that anyone interested in a leadership position in the USA must first pledge their unconditional support to Israel, regardless of whether they are right or left wing candidates. The latter is one of the few bipartisan attributes in Washington that we can honestly cite as an example of political consistency. If you have any doubts, ask Mr. Freeman.
Other than that, President Obama is as adrift on this issue as the Rock of Gibraltar.
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294, saintD.
"...but what we can say with absolute certainty is that Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid, to the tune of $3.5B a year, the largest recipient of US military aid, without technological restrictions...."
That supports both of my suggestions. Politicians are being paid off, and our interest in Israel is far from humanitarian.
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291, ubermensch.
I think you have been watching too many Shirley Temple movies. A little more sophistication (or honesty) would not be amiss.
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265 publiusdetroit
Sharia law
I see that David has answered your question. I know very little about it but here is a link.
No problem about the jab at CSIS. I believe, or certainly hope, they have learned their lesson and we will have no more of that! (For others: This in reference to Canadian Maher Arar who, with the support of CSIS was sent to Syria by the US authorities to be tortured.)
bere54
This is the second time you have mentioned feeling like a criminal. Perhaps you should see someone about that! (I jest!) That must be a question for Americans as I have never been asked about mace or pepper. spray.
269 timohio
Does the power of these lobbies not bother you?
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190, bere.
"You are being a tad naive here. Whether he spoke of "the Jewish lobby" or "the Israel lobby" or specifically AIPAC is irrelevant. The "Jewish lobby" by whatever name lobbies for one purpose only: the interests of Israel. To pretend it might be something else is to deny reality."
Yes. A lobby has only purpose. The Jewish (or Israeli) public relations program has been strong and organized from the time Israel was established. The Arabs (or Palestinians) never set up their own lobby, so all they received was condemnation from the other side, with no means of influencing public opinion. Even now there is no viable organization.
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ref #296
Actually I am more realistic.
The Palestinians and anyone who feels sharia law is justifable can't be conisdered trustworthy in negoitations.
I am realistic to not believe that the Palestians are victims.
I also know the Nbaka is a fraud.
But I also believe in honoring friendships and siding with the right side.
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ref #283
How can you compare a great man like Sharon with a terrorist like Arafat? Sharon gave the Palestinians another chance for peace when he widthdrew from Gaza.
and of course the Palestinians showed they are terrorists by nature by shooting missles.
Sharon is one great leaders of the last 30 years in the Mid-East.
Too bad after Sadat, you can't name many arab leaders who are willing to make sacrifices for peace.
Still waiting for Abdullah to come to Jerusulem and treat a Jew as an equal.
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249. At 10:59am on 14 Mar 2009, TrueToo wrote:
246. british-ish wrote:
"Please stop confusing Islam and Muslims with Arabs, whether from the Palestinian Mandate or not."
I'm not sure of your point. I'm aware that Pakistanis and Iranians are not Arabs. But they hate Israel and the Jews as much as do the Arabs.
Don't underestimate the scope and ambition of radical Islam and its designs on the West. Many cities in Europe already have no-go areas for non-Muslims and there is an increasing clamour for sharia law to be introduced in the West. And then, of course, there is Islamic terror aimed at the West.
I think you have made my point for me by apparently not understanding it.
This is getting ridiculous. More so because some contributors are ill-informed. What European city -- I live in London in an area where many Morroccan (Muslim, in the main) immigrants live -- has "no-go areas for non-Muslims"? I don't know of any. I do know of 'gated communities' for rich whites which are "no-go areas" for anyone else in the USA, though . . .
There is no "clamour for Sharia law to be introduced in the West" whatever scare stories DC might point you to in the Daily Mail or the Torygraph, except from a vociferous handful of advocates of an Islamic Caliphate.
And to say Iranians and Pakistanis (or Arabs) en masse hate Israel and Jews is a racist generalisation that is also simply pathetic in its cultural and historical ignorance. Can you tell me what interest anyone from Pakistan has in Israel or People of the Jewish faith? It's absurd: you are simplistically assuming some worldwide political unanimity among millions of people simply because they share a faith.
I might as well argue that all whites hate all Africans because they are black and whites are Christian, because Christians formed the greater number of the transatlantic slavers.
" You are also [you wrote] a native of one of the world's foremost democracies, which is a champion of human rights and freedom of speech. Please respect the rights of others to voice their opinions."
Please don't patronise me. "Free speech" allows me to object to object to fatuous and erroneous assertions which are not backed by history or evidence. Assertions -- like those I have quoted above -- are simply that. Opinions should be formed on the basis of thought, consideration, evidence, and fact. And those opinions and assertions which too often gain currency by mere unthinking repetition both deserve and require to be contested.
Why should anyone show respect, say, to the opinions and practises of a Pol Pot, a Torquemada, or a Caligula?
(Anyway, I'm only half a native of Britain. Shan't say what the other half is. Given it's Britain, could be Iranian, Palestinian, Pakistani, Indian, Iraqi, West African, Caribbean . . . You don't have to be a 'native' to take advantage of the -- sadly somewhat diminishing -- tradition of standing up for all human rights and advocacy.)
Anyway, I'm out of here. No point in continuing to go round in ever-decreasing circles.
But one thought: if a country determines an ever greater homegenised world is its enemy, one day it will discover it has no friends. No nation in history has ever survived that eventuality.
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301, ish-ish.
"I'm aware that Pakistanis and Iranians are not Arabs. But they hate Israel and the Jews as much as do the Arabs."
Not true. They are allied with Arabs in their stance against America. They bad-mouth the Israelis as a sop and for solidarity. That is not the same as hatred.
Note that after the creation of Israel, Iranian Jews did not leave and the Iranian government did not force them to. (They had been there since 539 BC when Cyrus the Great brought them out of captivity from Babylon.) In fact some Middle East Jews actually went to Iran instead of Israel.
Jews started to emigrate from Iran after the revolution of 1979 (as did a huge number of educated Moslems), and most of those went to America and other western countries rather than Israel.
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301, ish-ish.
Sorry. The above quote should have been attributed to Untrue. My error. (I should have known you would not have said something like that.)
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re. 297. timewaitsfornoman:
Yes, all lobbies bother me. Industry lobbies, union lobbies, lobbies for Israel, lobbies for the Palestinians, farm lobbies, environmental lobbies, etc. But the right to lobby government officials is considered freedom of speech here and I don't think it's going to end. We can only hope to make them reveal themselves so their influence can be evaluated by the electorate.
285 and 286. allmymarbles:
I doubt that the influence of the Israel lobby is as blatant as paying off members of Congress. American Jews are, to their credit, more politically active as a group than many other parts of the electorate. And many Jews feel strongly about American policy towards Israel. That's okay. It's their right. It is not a monolithic block; many Jewish friends of mine feel the same way I do about Israeli actions. But there are enough politically active American Jews who mindlessly favor Israeli policies and who donate to candidates and are active in campaigns and who mindlessly vote their convictions that they can probably influence the outcome of a House or Senate race in certain districts or states. It's like right-wing fundamentalist Christians. The really hard core fundamentalists aren't that numerous either, but they're loud and they can influence the outcome of elections, too. So politicians pay attention to them. The way to deal with that is for counterbalancing groups to become politically active as well.
Immigrant groups have influenced American foreign policy for over a century. The presence of large numbers of Irish Americans certainly helped Ireland gain independence, for example.
I think as Arabs and Muslims become more established and mainstream in the US, they will begin to use their influence to affect American policy in the Middle East. The Detroit area, for example, has the largest concentration of ethnic Arabs outside the Middle East. The next largest is Damascus. That is certainly going to influence local politics in Michigan. And there are Arab and Muslim communities all over the country which will wake up and start speaking up. It's starting to happen already. The Bush administration's poor handling of domestic surveillance of Arab Americans has woken them up to the need to assert their rights. Political activity will follow. The Israelis won't be able to count on knee-jerk support from the US forever. Time is not on their side, either in the Middle East or in the US. They should strike a deal while they have leverage.
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300. At 9:55pm on 14 Mar 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #283
More from our Dershowitz worshipper
300. At 9:55pm on 14 Mar 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #283
"How can you compare a great man like Sharon with a terrorist like Arafat? Sharon gave the Palestinians another chance for peace when he widthdrew from Gaza."
Was forced to leave for his corrupt belief in ethnic superirority ie one ethnic group must rule Israel,must be in the majority.
He stated this.
"and of course the Palestinians showed they are terrorists by nature by shooting missles."
Instead of starving to death as they were meant to?
"Sharon is one great leaders of the last 30 years in the Mid-East. "
Why did the Israeli parlaiment call him a war criominal then?
Do you like war criminals?
What about German ones.
DO you think as he lies in his coma he relfects on the Palestinian children and women massacred in the Sabra and Shatila camps?
Apparently he could hear the killing. I wonder if he still does.
"Too bad after Sadat, you can't name many arab leaders who are willing to make sacrifices for peace."
What sacrifice? Gaza did not beleong to Israel.
Too bad you didn't know that.
"Still waiting for Abdullah to come to Jerusulem and treat a Jew as an equal."
So he could be shot by a settler?
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304, timohio.
"But the right to lobby government officials is considered freedom of speech here and I don't think it's going to end."
They would have no power if they did not pay off (or trade favors with) politicians. Not Obama, or anyone else can change it. As a friend of mine once said after an election, "Throw the rascals in." Polititians must have a mutant gene, like Bernie Madoff.
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re. 300. MagicKirin:
"How can you compare a great man like Sharon with a terrorist like Arafat?"
It has been observed that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. As Marbles pointed out in 277, the heads of both Jewish extremist groups eventually became prime ministers of Israel. Even Ehud Barak (disguised as a woman) in 1973 led an asassination team into Beirut to kill members of the Palestine Liberation Organization. If the PLO had done that in Jerusalem, most people would have considered it a terrorist action. Nice guys.
Sharon was a great leader? He's the guy who launched the 1982 invasion of Lebanon, which was a debacle and a quagmire for Israel, to say nothing of being a disaster for the Lebanese. The invasion and subsequent occupation led to the formation of Hizbollah. And withdrawing from Gaza? He left that a little late, didn't he? His vendetta against Arafat had weakened Fatah. By the time Israel withdrew from Gaza, its policies had effectively strengthened Hamas.
Sharon's actions while in political office led to the formation of what are now two of Israel's most fanatic enemies and quite measurably made Israel less secure. He was a disaster as a leader.
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253. At 11:52am on 14 Mar 2009, TrueToo wrote:
251. MagicKirin wrote:
"I hear many people say let the U.N take a hand, but considering the recent tenure of the despicable Kofi Annan how can they ever be trusted?"
True, I watched Ban Ki Moon's speedy transformation from a fairly objective individual to one who now knows the meaningless PC patter he's supposed to spout off by heart. The closer he got to memorising it, the happier he looked."
And of course he is Asian and Kofi Annan is black and the Palestinians are dusky.
How are you with disabled peopel?
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293. At 8:23pm on 14 Mar 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
287, saintD.
Failproof plan for peace between Israel and Palestine (presuming that is what the U.S. wants): Any side that attacks the other, for any reason whatsoever, loses American aid. Peace will be achieved as soon as the checks fail to arrive.
Voila!
This is why no one believes the US when it claims it si looking for peace inthe ME.
If the US really wanted peace it could get it tomorrow.
Warn Israel that if the settlements and aaparthied laws continue then the aid and military assistance stops instantly.
It should also insist on an anti-fascist law to eliminate the Liebman gang.
Give the Palestinians billions for hospitals etc and say the aid stops if there are suicide bombers.
The pretense that the US can't do anything but hold its hands in the air as Palestinian woman and children die at the hands of US weapons is increasingly seen as the hideous farce it is.
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309.
I called all lobbyists scum and the mods took exception. Now, now, Justin, what happened to free speech?
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290 David_Cunard
297 timewaitsfornoman
Thank you both for the feedback.
I did not think having two legal systems operating side by side would be successful. If one immigrates to a country they must be willing to live under the laws of that country.
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ref #310
To you and Marbles , Palestinian terrorism is to be excused and the U.S and Israel must appease them.
You would have joined Chamberlen in appeasing the Nazis.
Because there is no moral difference between the Islamic facists of the Middle East and the Nazi's of Germany.
Unlike you haters, America will not stand by again.
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Not being European, I'm at a disadvantage analyzing
renaissance politics, but this Leo X character sounds
more like a G.W. Bush gone bad than an Obama.
Although, as excerpted from this Wikipedia article,
we could see later in Obama's presidency, a
similar tactic to the one quoted here:
The war of Urbino was further marked by a crisis in the relations between pope and cardinals. The sacred college had allegedly grown especially worldly and troublesome since the time of Sixtus IV, and Leo took advantage of a plot of several of its members to poison him, not only to inflict exemplary punishments by executing one and imprisoning several others, but also to make a radical change in the college.
This sounds like something a lot more calculating
than Jimmy Carter, who, while of excellent morals,
and who achieved some real progress in the
Camp David agreements, sent some fancy new
F-15's over to guard Saudi Arabia and then announced
to the world that they weren't armed.
So, which is Obama? I like to think of him as
a cross between Che Guevara and Napolean,
without the excellent staff work.
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ref #310
Just because Anan is black does not give him a pass in condoning and siding with terrorists against Israel.
Anymore than him complcity in the rape of refugees in Africa by U.N aid workers.
Like most of the Elders Annan is a fraud
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#65, alanskillcole, this Freeman guy seems to
make a lot of sense - no wonder he got thrown
out the back door!
I'd like to hear more about what he has to say,
perhaps there is room for one more talk show.
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I don't usually post anything which enters the Palestine-Israel fray, but at #300. MagicKirin wrote "How can you compare a great man like Sharon with a terrorist like Arafat?"
Ariel Sharon was every bit as much as a terrorist as any other. You can't change his resume/CV.
#313. "You would have joined Chamberlen in appeasing the Nazis."
You have a very poor understanding of the situation prior to WWII. "Unlike you haters, America will not stand by again." America stood by while thousands of Jews and other "undesirables" were rounded up and shipped off to concentration camps well before 1939. Remember, it didn't want to get involved - what say you to that?
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gunsandreligion
Have just returned from warmer climes (SC) where a regular on the radio was that catchy tune,
Marry for Money.
(Trace Adkins - well I had to google that.)
Thought of you! Needless to say we were south of the Mason Dixon Line!!
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Ref 315, Magic
"Just because Anan is black does not give him a pass in condoning and siding with terrorists against Israel."
Just because George W. Bush was an intellectually challenged President does not give him a pass for the pain and suffering he caused in Iraq, and yet, there he is enjoying his ranch in Crawford and his fancy residence in Dallas.
The only reason we hold Kofi Anan in low esteem is because he questioned and challenged our foreign policiy, and he - or his son -paid dearly for their audacity.
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ref #318
We are talking now, and while much of Europe buy the myth that Palestinians are victims; America is wiser and see Israel as the party in the right.
Sharon was a great military leader while Arafat was a cowardly thug.
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Ref 304 timohio
This process has already begun.
I am certain you are familiar with the city of Hamtramck (HAM-tram-ik). For those not familiar, Hamtramck is a traditional Polish ghetto inside the City of Detroit. The young Polish decendants have moved to the suburbs; the old are passing. An immigrant Islamic community is becoming a majority in the old Polish enclave. Islamic prayers from mosques mingle with the tolling of church bells throughout the day. A very interesting combination.
The mayor, city council, and police department of Hamtramck was openly corrupt for many years. The old Polish community gave little thought to this corruption because they were all getting a piece of the action in some form or other. When the Islamics became more numerous it caused alarm in the community.
The Islamics were renovating old commercial buildings and opening new businesses in the renovated buildings. This was greatly needed because the old "downtown" was getting seedy. The Islamic community took note of the discomfort their presence was causing among the locals and decided to make a gesture of good faith with the city. They bought a very expensive and powerful snowblower which they gave as a present to the city so that the sidewalks around the City building could be quickly and easily cleared after a snowstorm.
The city council returned the gift with a very insulting note.
The Islamic community was momentarily taken aback. They organized a citizenship program. Became new citizens of the U.S. and registered to vote. They now have substantial representation on the Hamtramck city council. Political corruption in the city has virtually disappeared. Businesses of all types, owned and operated by many nationalities are thriving.
There are small pockets of rejuvenation taking place throught the City of Detroit itself. Some of the very worst areas once controlled by youth gangs and drug dealers have been settled by groups of Arabs who have renovated buildings that could be renovated, and developed new buildings on the more numerous sites that were burned-out ruins. The youth gangs and drug-dealers have moved from these areas.
I can see in the not too distant future that the black majority which currently governs the city will become a minority once again as the Arabs continue to immigrate, become citizens, and continue to rebuild a very blighted city. Their voting bloc is becoming more noted within the State of Michigan and the nation.
Thus far, the political interests of the Islamics have been in business; not theology.
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timewaits, I sympathize with the guy, but all of
the American women that I run into are like this,
or this.
It's a pity that they're clamping down on those
visas now...
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Ref 313, Magic
I realize that citing examples of Zionist wrongdoing, even when their actions were carried out overtly, is futile and meaningless to those who after centuries of hating Jews suddenly find themselves on their side now that we have a common "enemy" to kick around, but here it goes:
Have you heard of the infamous Zionist Plan D of 1947-48 that led to the forceful depopulation of dozens of Palestinian towns and villages by the Haganah, and the massacres of Palestinian civilians in places like Deir Yassin, al-Dawayima, Eilaboun, Jish, Ramle, Lydda and later in Sabra, Shatila, and most recently in the Gaza Strip?
The architect of the initial Zionist "final solution" was none other than David Ben Gurion, Israel's first prime minister, who made no excuses or attempts to hide his policy of expelling Arabs from the newly created State of Israel. Incredibly, the order to expel an entire population, signed by Yitzhak Rabin, a future prime minister, was received by the West with absolute indifference and, later, reinforced by providing financial and military aid to the oppresors.
Feeble attempts made by Israeli politicians and intellectuals horrified by policies that emulate the Holocaust are usually dismissed or silenced by Zionist leaders intent on expansion and supremacy. Such was the case when Meir Ya'ari, one of the leaders of the Mapam party, voiced concern over Israeli policies to solve the Palestinian "problem", only to see his claims dismissed off hand and ridiculed.
Every "war" Israel has waged since its creation had the same objectives: territorial expansion and the expulsion or extermination of the Palestinian people.
To achieve their goal they play the role of victim, which their supporters and enablers happily endorse regardless of how illogical it is to portray a nation with one of the largest, most modern, and disciplined militaries in the world as an underdog fighting for survival against incredible odds.
I believe that considering the circumstances the best the Palestinians can hope for is the creation of a sovereign state in the West Bank and Gaza. Israel is not going to go away and no matter how unfair their expulsion was a reversal is a virtual impossibility and damage restoration unlikely. They should abandon violence as a means to attract world attention, and should focus instead on achieving realistic goals for the sake of their children.
As for the Israelis, history will be their judge, and demographics will be their nemesis.
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313, ubermensch.
"Unlike you haters, America will not stand by again."
C'mon, Ubermensch, since when did you ever care about America. That is not where your loyalty lies.
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240. DC
"The same strident arguments fomr both sides which have been repeated ad nauseum ...."
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Ref 321 MagicKirin
Yep. Sharon was a great military leader when directing forces against unarmed civilians (Qibya, Sabra, Shatila).
Not so good when up against military forces that shot back (Mitla Pass, Ismailia).
Sharon makes Tommy Franks look like a competent General and former Sec. of Defense Donald Rumsfeld appear to be a military genius.
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240. DC
"The same strident arguments from both sides which have been repeated ad nauseum ...."
Amen.
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248. Ed; 261. Timohio
Yes, I realize that there was very significant financial support from the diaspora. Still, it was done all the same, and I would give credit. Second, it cannot be said that there have not been times when petrodollar wealth was sloshing around in various Arab capitals, yet I do not see any similar phenomenon. The closest thing I see is the Aga Khan foundation, and it is much different. I also doubt that if the Jews had settled in Syria they would have had the same success. Syria is not a country whose political system or leadership recommend themselves to me.
There is a saying that goes something like "Most people don't recognize when opportunity knocks because it tends to arrive in coveralls".
The Zionists (starting with Herzl, in the time of the Ottoman empire) worked bloody hard and made something positive out of opportunities that nobody else either saw, or, if they saw it, were committed enough to do anything about it.
I admire that in anybody. My experience in life is that it is a lot easier to destroy things, and make people miserable, than it is to build worthwhile things that benefit not only ourselves, but also our neighbours.
Most of the people I know who have had to work really, really hard in life, who have suffered greatly, and who have achieved worthwhile things are also very generous. I think hard experience certainly teaches perspective, and often teaches generosity of spirit. It seems to me that you cannot be both generous and small-minded at the same time.
It is almost as if the more generous and honest they are in their dealings with others, the more they have been rewarded themselves, not only materially but spiritually. The greatest reward is that they are able to lift their eyes and see a wider world. They view the world not with fear, but with openness and understanding. That is a very great gift, of immense value. Oh, I know some real stinkers too, but they are the exceptions - and if they weren't such stinkers, they would have had greater success, too, in my view.
(more on this to follow)
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You (I.e., Timohio) remark at on the success of the Palestinian diaspora, too, and its success elsewhere.
This reflects what I had understood to be true, and my own anecdotal experiences in life. The Palestinians I have met, typically small business owners, or guys making it in construction and real estate (not so much now, though ...) have impressed me. The Palestinian diaspora succeeds almost wherever it goes, and I I have the impression that Palestinians have a reputation for competence and ability, such that Palestinians often form the backbone (or certainly a disproportionate portion of) of the public service in many middle eastern countries, in particular in the various Gulf states. Maybe others on this blog have better knowledge as to whether this is true or not.
And this is the paradox of it. Both the Jewish and Palestinian diasporas seem to be very successful. These are groups that tend to believe in education, who believe in contributing their time and effort to their community, whose children tend to be well behaved, who abide the law and try to get on with their neighbours. This is the Canadian experience, and I suspect it happens in lots of other places too.
I work with a fair number of Jewish guys. I live in an area that is predominantly Jewish and Chinese, but that also has a big East Indian minority, lots of Iranians, a fair number of Lebanese and Palestinians, a fair number of Russian speakers, a few Spanish speakers, (and, oh yes, seemingly uniquely, one white, Caledonian-Anglo-Saxon-Presbyterian, born in Canada). I have dealt with children and parents from all of these backgrounds. The kids play wonderfully together, and accept each other for who they are. It is really positive.
As an aside, Marbles' comment at 289 about the two views of the Lebanese fellow on Palestinians and Israelis somehow reminds me of a saying that "A Conservative is a liberal who has been mugged. A Liberal is a Conservative who's daughter needs an abortion."
In any case, when you see these people getting along, by and large pretty well, then turn on the TV and see these selfish, small minded idiots who run Hamas and the right wing parties in Israel ...
Despair.
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A long time ago I read a book on the Algerian war called "A Savage War of Peace" by Alistair Horne (?). One of the points he made was that the leadership of one of the insurgent groups – I have forgotten which one – made it a deliberate policy to hunt down and kill anyone in their own community who could be a potential rival leader with moderate views, and with whom the French authorities might cobble together some kind of compromise acceptable to everyone other than the extremists. [This, by the way, is also what happens in, for example, Republican primaries to anyone who doesn’t share the distorted, rabid right-wing talk show host view of the world]
This is what seems to have happened in my lifetime in the middle east. Anyone who tries to do something positive, or who tries to arrive at a live-and-let-live solution that would be acceptable to the majority on both sides is driven out or assassinated. So leadership becomes more and more extreme, and positions become more and more entrenched.
And so all the positive potential and ability of those who believe in solutions other than violence, as seen in the amazingly talented diasporas, remains untapped.
Schade.
I make no pretense of being objective here: I am biased in favour of Israel.
Nonetheless, it seems to me that there is a lot of truth in Tim’s comments at 266 (and elsewhere) and in Sonicboomer’s comment at 267. I also think Moshe Dayan was a great man. There have been lots of missed opportunities here, and,sadly, the Israel of the 1960’s is definitely not the Israel of today. The passing of the generation that survived the holocaust, to be replaced by these good-for-nothing “Greater Israel” religious parasites was not a beneficial societal change. Israel took a wrong turning there, and it makes me sad. I wonder if that is where the chance for peace was lost. Lots of people wonder if it was lost when Clinton couldn’t get Arafat to close the deal at Camp David. Maybe that is where it was lost. Don’t know.
Strangely, perhaps, I agree with 260 fierce teapot (first time I have seen you here; welcome; great choice of name) that this is the most important conflict that needs to be solved to help the western world [and I might add, large portions of the islamic world] to move on. Certainly this conflict has had a distorting effect on world affairs that is, I think, unrivalled over the last half century. This conflict is just not worth even the beginnings of the trouble it has caused. I also agree with Simon at 310, and St. D at 287 and 325; and, even, in an odd way, with MK at 313.
I respect Marbles’ restraint in her many postings on this string, because I suspect there are things she would like to say that she has not.
Israel’s long term position is not good because time and numbers are both stacked against the Israelis. Neither the Venetians (a remarkably foolish empire), nor the crusader kingdoms, nor the British in India, nor the French in Indochina, nor the Dutch in the East Indies, nor any other empire of which I am aware, could hold on over the long term where the population numbers were stacked resolutely against them. This isn’t about the next five years, or perhaps even the next 25 years. It is about the next hundred years or more. In the West, we have such an immediate view – our attention span hardly extends past the next 15 second commercial. Other cultures have much, much longer views of history. This is why Hamas will keep up its rocket attacks, no matter how much suffering it brings upon its own people. It is why Hezbollah is so confident that it does not need to compromise.
The leadership in Iran look like 1930’s “Juden Raus!” fascists to me. Marbles will have a much more sophisticated view of the various currents in Iranian society (i.e., it is not a monolith). Be that as it may, the guy who is in office now scares the bejeezes out of me, and if Iran were ever to obtain nuclear weapons, this guy seems like enough of a nut bar to try to use them. To that extent, MK has at least half a point.
Cutting off aid, alone, would not solve the problem, because that will bring neither Hamas nor Hezbollah to the table.
Wars require money. America is paying for both sides of this war. Achieving energy self sufficiency based on non-hydrocarbon sources would be a big step in establishing the conditions that would permit this conflict to be settled.
It is also long past time for some “tough love” for Israel. We like and support Israel, but that doesn’t mean we should be held hostage. Sometimes real friends have to speak the truth, even when it is unpleasant. This means dismantling illegal settlements, and holding to account those who advocate violence against Arabs, and a fair number of other things, too.
But this requires staring down the Israeli lobby in congress. For the first time decades, America has a President might do this. Not an easy thing, though. While Jewish Americans account for only 1 % of the population, they account for a much larger percentage of the country's lawyers. And then, as always, there are the right wing Christian religious wing-nuts who support Israel because they are anxious for "rapture".
I cannot abide needless, stupid suffering. Thus the criticisms of both those who deliberately perpetuate misery, or who seem to glory in destruction (in my view, Hamas and its ilk), and those who authorize air strikes in crowded urban areas, and yes, who deliberately hide among civilians to make civilian deaths inevitable, is in all cases well merited, and yes, religious zealots of all stripes, including but not limited to those asinine settlers who squat in the occupied territories. All of these acts are the selfish acts of small, small, irresponsible people who seek to profit not only from the sufferings of their enemies, but, as often as not, from the calculated suffering of their own people. There is a special place reserved in Hell for people like that.
Whatever the historical rights and wrongs are, the people I admire are the ones who try to get along and make something better for their children tomorrow.
Now to move on to the issue of Obama Drift, Protectionism, and Chapter 13 of Don Quixote.
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Obama Drift.
Well, first, it has been less than 2 months, and it seems a bit soon to tell. Second, yes, the amount of money “earmarked” for favorite projects is worrying, and the plans for spending are uncomfortable imprecise.
The current economic crisis is not one problem, but rather three.
First, there is a classic market failure short term collective action problem.
Second there is a structural problem that requires a re-adjustment of the balance between consumption and savings.
The third problem is a toxic waste disposal problem – how to deal with the impaired assets that are clogging up credit.
Inconveniently, the solutions to the first problem are pretty much the opposite to what you would normally want to do to solve the second problem.
The third problem, which was the main trigger of the first problem, though painful, is probably the easiest to solve. Require each bank to identify the impaired assets, and to match those impaired assets to the underlying physical properties they represent. Then unbundle the securitized assets. Go through the underlying properties one by one and triage them: First group, loans that are not in default in any way; second group, loans that are in default, but that have some prospect of being saved, e.g., because the owners still have jobs, and can cover 80 % of the mortgage at the original “teaser” rate, but not 100% at the boosted rate; third group, loans that are hopeless. The first group needs no help. They can be traded on the open market at 100 cents on the dollar. The “Fedbank” should offer to take on the second group at 75 cents on the dollar. The ”Fedbank should offer to take on the third group for 50 cents on the dollar. The assets underlying the second and third groups should then be quarantined from the general financial system.
The “FedBank” can then figure out, on a case by case basis the best way to deal with the second group, and, in the case of the third group, whether bankruptcy or criminal proceedings are required. This is mundane, painstaking work, but it is not in principle any more difficult than it was to provide mortgages to those properties in the first place. In the end, the FedBank may make a small profit, because, on average, even the most “distressed” properties have not lost half their value.
Consider the first problem. We can all see that the money supply is contracting at a jaw dropping rate. We have severe deflation in several sectors of the economy, and jobs are being lost at a record pace. We can all see that the solution to this problem is for everybody to spend a little more to stoke up domestic demand.
The problem is that every one of us is afraid for his or her job, and so everybody’s wallet has slammed shut. We are all paying down debt as fast as we can, and waiting for our neighbors to spend the money required to restart the economy. This is a classic collective action market failure.
The thing is, that even if unemployment were to increase by 2 or 3 % within the next short while, that would still leave well over 90 % of us working. If that 90 % were all to spend an extra $ 1000., over the next month, even if it required taking on additional debt, it would start to pull this thing out of the downward dive.
But since nobody knows which 2 or 3 % of us are going to lose our jobs, we are all scared, and it is every man for himself. Ironically, paying down debt is making the money supply shrink even faster, making the problem worse. There’s a paradox.
Who amongst us is not as guilty as the next person in this regard?
The panic seems to be easing a bit this week, since City Group announced that it is back in priofit, but markets are fickle: Let Chrysler announce that its re-structuring efforts have failed, that Fiat won’t bail it out, and that 60,000 workers have been given their pink slips, and then see what happens.
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(Continued)
Normally, keeping taxes low, and allowing individuals to make their own choices in the market is good policy. Individuals are almost always better at allocating scarce resources than are government bureaucracies.
However, in the present circumstances both tax cuts and direct cash payments to individuals may be poor policy choices. In both cases any benefit to individuals is likely to be either (a) used to pay down debt and thereby shrink the supply of credit in the market, and therefore the money supply; or (b) be used for highly leaky consumer spending that is likely to yield only very modest (if any) long term benefit. The fear is that the money will simply evaporate, or be spent on consumer imports that do little to re-circulate dollars in the American economy. Neither of these is what we need.
Rather, we need to do the financial equivalent of forming a square like the British infantry at Waterloo.
One way to do this is to raise taxes, and then spend the money on infrastructure projects. That may well work.
However, there is a considerable prospect – and certainly a great fear among taxpayers, not all of them Republicans – that the money will be wasted.
There is a great fear of this if the money is used to “improve” our schools, which usually means paying ransom to the teachers’ unions, without any substantive improvement in actual performance.
Alternatively it could be used to “improve” health care, but that may simply fuel the inflated demands of those having situational monopolies – like the healthcare unions or the pharmaceutical companies – or be swallowed in the free-rider and moral hazard problems that plague all public health systems. As readers of this blog will know from recent posts, I am a great believer in universal, single payer, public health care. However, the greatest threat to public health care is selfish behavior by those who treat public resources as if they are free to be abused. Some healthcare systems handle this better than others.
There is a great temptation to spend on pork (i.e., non-economically efficient expenditures of government funds that probably harm the economy rather than help it), and it will leave taxpayers with a large debt that will hang over the economy for years to come. Further, if the money is used on projects that generate an economic return, that return will be captured by private sector beneficiaries, rather than accruing to the public. If the public is going to invest all this money, it ought to be entitled to the return on investment, if any.
Instead, the government might compel all taxpayers to loan the state money, with the loan to be paid back over time, with interest. In essence, these would be the equivalent of “war bonds”, and the purchase of a minimum amount would be compulsory for all taxpayers. The bonds would pay 3% or 4%, and would pay back over 10 to 25 years. After five years or so the bonds could be sold on the secondary market.
This has advantages.
First, it solves the collective action problem: it will be just like drafting soldiers, except that this time we will be drafting savings, not men. The resources will be drawn evenly across the tax base.
Second, it does not leave taxpayers with more debt. It leaves then with an asset in the form of a government backed security that can be traded, eventually, on the secondary market or pledged as collateral.(might have to think about that, though.) – just like Canada Savings Bonds.
Third, it gets around the reluctance of the banks to lend – the lenders are going to be the taxpayers, generally, so the “toxic asset” problem is avoided. The borrower of first instance is going to be the government.
Fourth, it solves a short term behavioral spike and spreads it out over many years, so that it damps out the shock wave that has hit the economy.
(more to follow)
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How much money is required?
The economy appears to be missing about $ 3 Trn of spending.
There are 300m Americans.
Therefore the shortfall is about $ 10,000. per person, or $ 30,000 per household.
While this isn’t to be sneezed at, it also isn’t the end of the world, either. This is roughly the size of the line of credit the government needs from the taxpayers. If it is allocated in proportion to income tax (as it would have to be), the banks could be required to lend the money to taxpayers at the rate of interest paid on the bonds, with the principle being secured against the bonds. It is important, too, to see it as a line of credit: available for use if needed, but possibly not used.
The money raised in this way would be invested in low risk, certain return, infrastructure projects.
Keeping with the banking analogy, the government could then lend a multiple of the amount of money raised. I.e., the present capital adequacy ratio for banks is (I believe) 8 %, implying an increase in the money supply of $ 12.50 for every dollar of capital. The government could be much more conservative, and adopt a capital adequacy ratio of 20%, and still be able to lend five times as much money as it raises in bonds.
(My finance friends will probably say this is voodoo. I don’t know enough about finance to understand why. If the banks can do this, why can’t the Fed set up a public bank, and do the same thing? The “FedBank” will not engage in consumer lending, will only fund infrastructure projects that result in guaranteed cashflow revenue streams, and will only fund asset creation projects with unmovable assets fixed to the ground in concrete.)
The point is that at a 20% capital reserve ratio $ 600B of borrowing from the public would enable the government to lend $ 3Trn. Thus the amount actually required from the “line of credit” should be well less than the potential $ 3Trn available. The actual amount required would then be about $ 2000 per person, or $ 6000 per household. The North American economy can handle this.
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What do you use the money for?
One idea: Building as many wind turbines as possible.
Another idea: Investing in railroad and public transit infrastructure.
Another idea: Investing in toll roads, bridges or tunnels.
Another idea: Invest in the electricity grid, and in telecommunications capacity enhancement.
There are several reasons why.
For example, I like wind turbines because:
They are long term assets, rather than ephemeral short term consumer spending.
The money is not wasted on grossly economically inefficient inflation of the pay packets of public sector unions.
It is consistent with a long term shift in the balance between consumption and investment in our economy.
Wind turnbines do not take much by way of regulatory approval, as compared to gas, coal or nuclear plants.
Unlike a nuclear plant, it does not take ten years to build a functioning wind turbine.
Unlike a nuclear plant, the things start producing revenue incrementally as they come on line.
Unlike a nuclear plant, you don't have to engage in denial in ignoring that nagging worry about eventual disposal.
Construction involves lots of steel and concrete. We have idle steel plants, and idle steelworkers everywhere. We have idle construction workers everywhere.
Concrete and steel are heavy enough that it doesn’t make sense to import them from China.
Most of the work has to be done right here, which avoids the problems with “Buy America” violation of treaties – the work can’t really go anywhere else, anyhow.
There is almost unlimited untapped windpower potential in North America, so it isn’t like there is a shortage of locations for building turbines.
It requires additional investments in powerlines, which, again, involves a lot of big steel towers and cable – just the kind of jobs we need right now.
It is a choice that is consistent with the long term needs of our economy to move toward (a) energy self-sufficiency; and (b) renewable, non-polluting energy resources;
Every additional wind turbine built weakens the political power of the oil industry. (You remember, the kind folks who brought you George W. Bush, Iraq, and the financial melt-down.)
Every additional wind turbine built reduces our energy dependence on nasty, un-democratic people who do not like us very much.
It is a choice that will generate an almost immediate and enduring cash-flow return on investment;
Once constructed, the marginal cost of producing power will be almost nil, so the power will be salable no matter how low the cost of energy falls; and
The work can start relatively quickly, before things get worse.
I like railroad investment because:
The big private railroads want to do it anyway;
It is an opportunity to encourage the large class I railroads to adopt mainline electrification, which would yield enormous long term benefits. Even though all of the railroads know that electrification would bring huge benefits, the short-term cost of the changeover would be very large, and the payback period is fairly long. This is where the stability of long term government guaranteed bond funding, with the public being entitled to a return on its investment, it would serve both public and private interests. Electrification also permits the railroads (huge users of fossil fuels) to take advantage of even a partial shift away from fossil fuels for power generation.
It is an opportunity for public-private partnership to expand existing capacity for the benefit of freight systems, non-freight systems of commuter rail and short distance, high density inter-city rail, and urban transit rail systems.
As with wind turbines, it is a spending decision that creates long term assets, rather than ephemeral short term consumer spending – it is consistent with a long term shift in the balance between consumption and investment in our economy;
There is a paying return on investment when rolling stock pass over the lines, which would begin almost immediately and would increase proportionately as the dollars were spent.
A shift to rail transport is consistent with our future needs for environmental protection and for reduction of dependence on foreign energy sources.
It creates demand in the steel business and in the construction industry, where there is abundant slack capacity.
The great majority of the work has to be done in situ, so issues of “Buy America” doesn’t arise, or arises only minimally.
It is something on which the US and Canada can co-operate to their mutual benefit.
I like investments in toll roads, bridges, and tunnels rather less, because they are not as environmentally benign. But they do generate an identifiable revenue stream, which is important if we are trying to make the payments on bonds, they would generate work in sectors that are very slow right now, the work can’t really be outsourced to any great extent, and the public is at least getting some value in return, as it would not necessarily do if equivalent funds were spent on direct cash payments to individuals.
There are no doubt lots of other suitable projects. It is very important that the money not be provided as grant money. It must be provided with an obligation to repay, since that will reduce the temptation to spend on non-economic pork barrel projects, and will address the long term debt repayment problem from the outset.
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Last comment for tonight:
So much for the short term problem.
The long term problem, which is to shift the balance in the economy from consumer credit and consumption toward saving and investment in plant and equipment requires some tough, really unpopular, and yet fairly clear, steps. Here are some that might be on the list:
Shift electoral re-districting to a neutral body subject to objective guidelines, with the objective of reducing the electoral safety of incumbents. Prohibit closed primaries that can be dominated by single-issue, extremist interest groups.
Over the next 20 years, slowly eliminate mortgage interest tax deductibility, by 5% per year, and reduce the cap by 5 % per year. This is the single most important step to prevent future housing bubbles. At the same time, improve financial regulation - e.g., prohibit mortgages longer than 25 years or for more than 85% of the purchase price. Prohibit mortgages where the prospective mortgagee cannot demonstrate an annual income at least 2 ½ times the size of the mortgage payments unless the mortgage is for less than half the assessed value of the property.
The burden of healthcare is presently a de facto import subsidy. That needs to stop. The cost of healthcare should not fall on manufacturers like a penalty that is not paid by foreign rivals. Recognize that health care has to be de-coupled from employment, and go to a single payer system with a list of authorized procedures. Every other major industrial country has figured out how to pay for health care through public funding. America can, too. Roughly speaking, the choice at present has been to pamper the AMA, the HMOs, the pharmaceutical companies and other health care providers, with the effect of closing car plants and steel mills. How many people still think that was a good choice?
Realize that the least expensive health care is to stop smoking, to change diet, and to increase physical activity; and re-adjust tax and public health insurance incentives accordingly.
Recognize that social security will go bust unless people work longer, and over the next 15 years slowly edge the age of retirement up to 67 years, 6 months. It’s either that or bankruptcy, take your pick.
Introduce a national value added tax and simultaneously reduce income tax by the amount of revenue generated by the sales tax to encourage a relative shift from spending toward saving. Stop taxing income made on savings, at least to some minimum level.
Remove the test of demonstrating anti-competitive effect in the markets from the Sherman Act to make anti-trust prosecutions easier. Outlaw “customer loyalty” programs as the manipulative, anti-competitive abominations they are. [The only permitted exception: Canadian Tire Money, a cultural icon]
Stop subsidizing retail purchases made on credit. A better idea would be to levy a small (1% if over $50; 5% if under $50) transaction tax on the use of credit cards, or, alternatively, to make it a “per se” anti-trust offense under the Sherman Act for credit card issuers to prevent retailers from posting two prices for goods, one if paid cash, the other if paid by credit.
Yes, strong and no doubt unpopular measures, but they would lead to a healthier economy and more employment.
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Ref 330-337 Interestedforeigner
Thank you for the very well presented serial posting. A wonderful, interesting read. By far the most well thought, sane ideas I have read or heard on all the various topics you addressed.
I apologize for having bored you with my postings on this thread. I have been having far too much fun prodding MK and co. with a blunt stick. It is time I become serious.
Once again; thank you for sharing your wisdom.
Joe
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ref #336
I agree with your promotions of wind turnbines
But there are two problems that need to be dealt with the NIMBY and the evironmentalists who fear chopped birds.
The #1 Eco hypocritical family the Kennedy's have blocked a vaible wind farm that should be up and running
The enviornmental splinter groups(90% who know nothing about the environment, just like Marbles knows nothing about the Middle East) are worried about birds getting hurt.
Don't sell Nuclear short this is not a 1 item solution.
Tidals energy similar to what is being done in New Brunswick, The oil sands in alberta and drill baby drill.
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Well I see if you dare to criticize the great Nelson Mandela the moderators will remove your post.
Oh Marbles supporting Israel is in the U.S interest. The majority of american seem to agree.
Your support of the terrorists only serves the interest of the Islamic facists
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266. timohio,
I'm not sure where we are in disagreement but I'll take a closer look at your comment when I get a bit of time.
267. SONICBOOMER,
You are misrepresenting things a touch. In fact it was the Arabs who slammed the door firmly shut on peace talks after the Six Day War. Here's the resolution at Khartoum, September 1967:
*No peace with Israel
*No negotiations with Israel
*No recognition of Israel
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Ref 339, Magic
"Don't sell Nuclear short this is not a 1 item solution."
You are right, although it is apparent that not everyone is encouraged to pursue this alternative to fossil fuel dependence; and we still have to find a viable solution to the nuclear waste dilemma.
Similarly, we should not sell other energy alternatives short. There is great potential in solar, wind, hydrogen, biofuels and even biomass.
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Ref #339
I remember reading up on tidal energy a while ago, and being quite impressed. I should Wikipedia it (indubitably the quickest, though occasionally not the most accurate).
As for wind farms, they pose the ethical problem of disturbing wildlife more than we already have in this country. To be completely fair it is a bit Darwinist to put our needs above the preservation of these areas... but stopping now after destroying so much would be a bit hypocritical. Does it only start mattering when it is convenient? (Let's not forget about how many views the turbines would obstruct... although in my own opinion it can't be worse than light pollution in the cities)
As for the rest of the debates, I can't say I know as much about Middle Eastern history/politics. But in reply to Webb's original statements (after having read up on Mr. Freeman), I am somewhat disappointed. He appears to be an eloquent and thoughtful man, and the kind of person you would want to have asking questions once in a while. In a job with essentially no authority, just the ability to be heard and taken seriously, this man would seem to be an excellent choice. If there is a reason why not, I would like to hear it.
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Dominick (325),
Agreed, but it should be noted that they tried very non-violent route for twenty years, and nobody paid a blind bit of notice to the plight of the Palestinians until they began hijacking planes. Then the world took notice. The same is true of the second Intifada, which followed years of non-progress following the Oslo agreements.Foreigner (330),Notably Rothschild from the very beginning of the twentieth century.... And some background: Herzl's "The Jewish State"This is indeed characteristic of Jewish culture, but it certainly does not characterise the behaviour of the Zionists toward the indigenous Palestinians. In fact, this is what so distresses many right-thinking Jews..Seconded!As demonstrated by the disappointing subject of this thread.
I find little with which to disagree in 336/7, and much to enthusiastically second. And, I also second Publius' thanks.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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# 313 MagicKirin wrote
"Unlike you haters, America will not stand by again."
It is somewhat ironic that 'hater' ['hate group', 'hatemonger' etc etc] is one of MagicKirin's favourite insults, [along with eg 'terrorist', 'anti-Semite', 'appeaser' and 'facist' [sic]].
It is ironic because he is clearly consumed by hatred himself - hatred for Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims, Kofi Annan, Nelson Mandela, Archbishop Desmond Tutu, anyone who in any way dares to criticise any action or policy of the State of Israel, anyone who in any way dares to disagree with any uninformed prejudice of MagicKirin, Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, trade unions, correct spelling....
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Dominick (342),
Uranium supplies are estimated as sufficient for less than a century at present use levels, so even less a long-term solution than fossil fuels.
I should also note that "hydrogen" should not be listed among energy 'sources' as it is simply a storage/delivery system. Hydrogen is indeed a fuel, but it does not exist un-combined on Earth. To get hydrogen (usually from water) we must put in at least as much energy as can be got from burning (or otherwise utilising) it.
Similarly, biofuels which cost almost as much (or more) energy to produce as they yield (as with much current ethanol production), are foolish, and, where they take up resources needed for food production, downright evil.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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ref #342
We mostly agree although if France can have viable Nuclear power why can't the U.S?
One of the few areas I agree with the Obama stimulus is promoting alternative and sustainable energy solutions
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ref #343
Despite the pro/Anti Israel talk on this thread that is not why Freeman had to widthdraw.
Freeman has financial impropities and eveyone except Gietner in that situation has widthdrawn
Freeman is scapegoating AIPAC.
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Ref 343, Yrogrel
"As for wind farms, they pose the ethical problem of disturbing wildlife more than we already have in this country."
I love birds, in fact, I spent the last half hour filling my bird feeders and cleaning two bird baths, but unless we decide to resort to bycicles and burros as a preferred mode of transportation, replace light bulbs with candles, replace TV sitcoms with a good book (not a bad idea), and refrigerators with ice boxes I am afraid we are going to have to make some compromises.
As for beautiful views, I was appalled the last time I visited Tennessee and saw what were once beautiful mountains destroyed by strip mining. If had have to choose between one of those sore sights and a Quixotic wind mill, I think I'll go for the latter.
Regarding the Obama drift, I think it is fair to say that he has been drifting on this issue, from policies designed to guarantee $45B annual profits for oil companies to some designed to develop alternatives sources of energy. Not a bad drift in my opinion.
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