Faith vs Science
The stem cell decision is indeed a repudiation of a Bush policy but it is more: the strange death of socially conservative America, which began in the mid-terms in 2006, continues apace. The repudiation is of a policy but also of a way of life, that puts faith above science.
The initial Republican take from their most vocal congressional spokesman struck me as vapid. You can attack the decision on grounds of morality if you believe that embyos are people as John Boehner, the Republican leader in the House later did with his statement: "Taxpayer dollars should not aid the destruction of innocent human life."
You can also attack it on grounds of practicality if you believe that it will lead to very little real progress. But to suggest it kinda doesn't matter? Mr Cantor didn't even recognise the obvious fact that the move will bring economic benefits .
As for the poltics of it - as I have said previously one cure that genuinely affects thousands of Americans, one piece of real progress, and the Republicans will be sunk. Meanwhile the jury is out.
I should add a personal note: my son, of whom I have written recently, has type one diabetes and could one day be cured by stem cell treatment. I do not resent Mr Boehner's views but I note with real anticipation that America, with all its energy and zest for improvement and technical knowhow and openness to ideas and talent, is now able to devote much more of those qualities to this field. I have faith!
UPDATE: Anyone who wants to hear first hand the excitement the Obama stem cell announcement causes in the scientific community - this is your site. The twitterer is Larry Solar of the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation.
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Justin Webb:
I have to agreed with the science part of this debate and the faith argument is a very important part of any issue...But, we need to involved in many ways to make more useful decisions on medical care....
~Dennis Junior~
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Justin:
But to suggest it kinda doesn't matter? Mr Cantor didn't even recognise the obvious fact that the move will bring economic benefits .
---
I think that the Republican Party currently is having problems with the future of the Party direction...And, they are attacking more of the policy moving the United States to a Centre of the road than, it's previous administration had the United States was leaning towards...
Also, I think that Faith (Religion) in the mindset of the Republican and associates in the Conservatives leaning persons thoughts are: Science is not relevant towards things like stem cell research....
~Dennis Junior~
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How many new saddles do you put on a dead horse before you realize, it's still not going anywhere?
Might just as well give the money to GM so they can build the same model cars with 4 different name tags that will not be sold.
Even if we wake tomorrow with a new cure for diabetes resulting from an astounding break-through in stem-cell research, Jane and Joe Sixpack are not going to be able to buy it because they do not have a job.
First things first. We need to get consumers back to work so they have jingles in their pockets.
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I've always been puzzled (nay mystified) by the right wing's views on sex.
From the same report: "Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Alabama, said. . .
"My basic tenet here is I don't think we should create life to enhance life and to do research and so forth. . ."
Says it all, really. Why reproduce if all it does is create beings that try to "enhance life and do research and so forth".
Absolutely. What we want is a world populated by uneducated unthinking slaves and serfs.
And how come more taxpayers dollars spent on the "destruction of innocent human life" are ethically sound when they go to the Pentagon?
Some people (and one particular American political party) really do need to work on their ethical arguments.
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3. publiusdetroit:
"Even if we wake tomorrow with a new cure for diabetes resulting from an astounding break-through in stem-cell research, Jane and Joe Sixpack are not going to be able to buy it because they do not have a job.
First things first. We need to get consumers back to work so they have jingles in their pockets."
I have a much simpler solution. You stop all forms of medical research, health care, medication and surgical intervention that prolong life after the onset of any disease or injury. That a) saves an awful lot of money so it can be given to General Motors instead; b) reduces the population so there are still jobs to go round; c) it leaves only the healthy and wealthy, so there's no need to bother about any of this ethical stuff, or stem cells, because they won't be needed any more.
(And creates lots more jobs as undertakers and gravediggers.)
Social Darwinism, I think it's called . . .
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Ref 5 british-ish
If we could only get the Limbaugh Party to practice the birth control they preach ("Just say no.") they would not have to worry about the likely result of sex;-)
That might also reduce the number of employees needed at the Pentagon. Two birds; one stone!
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"How many new saddles do you put on a dead horse before you realize, it's still not going anywhere?"
I don't know ,How many new saddles do you put on a dead horse before you realize, it's still not going anywhere?
but thinking of saddles.
The important thing is to be sure that this crazy scientist rubbish is not being carried out on Animals.
There is a debate to make this tired old "religious vrs heathen scum" debate topic.
Why do americans show so little regard for animals. How is it that animal torture in medical labs is never discussed in the USA.
Look the BBC have stitched up Crufts, (well done BEEB).
Here in the states no one discusses animal cruelty.
Really.
That's my problem with medical research these days.
Why not spend less time creating illnesses, by reforming the workplace in many cases.
they banned cigarette smoking not welding fumes. what a joke.
Oh stopwating time stem cell will help us so much, I bet some say.
yea well that sure will be the case for a while then we will have just created more, more expensive to fix problems.
As we are so prone to doing.
are we all CHIMP killers?
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Ref 5 british-ish
Hope you do not think I want to see more money tossed into the GM money pit. That automobile is driving too fast on icy roads with bald tires.
I am not against medical research. I just do not see results from decades of stem-cell research that justify the hundreds of millions of dollars that have been dumped into it. I keep hearing about all the "promising" applications expected from the illusive "break-through", but see so very little that has been accomplished.
I am afraid that I am inclined to agree with Congressman Cantor. I think the expected announcement is little more than a distraction from the issues of the economy.
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"The stem cell decision is indeed a repudiation of a Bush policy but it is more: the strange death of socially conservative America"
I don't see that at all. President Obama was elected by 53% of the electorate, while the remainder repudiated his proposed policies. Look at a map of the red and blue states - he won 24 out of the 50, many of those in conservative areas of the South and Mid West. While I agree that he has done the right thing, how the stroke of the executive pen amounts to the death of socially conservative America eludes me. I haven't seen a reliable nationwide poll which suggests that the entire country is falling into line.
#7. happylaze: "Here in the states no one discusses animal cruelty."
Ever heard of PETA?
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One has to admire the Republican take -"Taxpayer dollars should not aid the destruction of innocent human life." where I wonder if we are meant to forget the waste of both in the mountains and plains of Afghanistan and Iraq.
We must love the embryos, but take the mature end product from one country and let it do battle with the mature end products from another, [should they have something we covet], and everything is good with the world?
Obviously part of the American psyche must have links to the Spartan idea of producing as many strong males as possible to compete in the necessary military mayhem that keeps the US in Number 1 position as world leader.
Forget the health benefits! I am sure you could change Mr Canter's position if you could suggest that new technical equipment advances created in stem-cell research might lead to a spin-off laboratory production line for future cannon fodder? That would be a "Womb with a view" to keep the Republican party's support, removing any necessity to involve "family sorrows" in further confrontation.
When is an embryo a "human life?
Some thoughts here
All in all another chicken and the egg question that can never be answered
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My apologies.
I unintentionally named Congressman Cantor as "Canter" above and had no intention of likening him to a three legged horse trot.
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Pentagon?
"In this time of great challenges, I recognize the real choice between investments that are designed to keep the American people safe and those that are designed to make a defense contractor rich," the president said Wednesday.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123638888403658683.html
Makes sense, again. Let's hope the fat cat and its dead brother bouncing (the skinny one, that is) do not have enough power to harm wisdom any further.
7 Happylaze,
Difficult topic, animal rights... I'm glad we have this Animal Party in Holland. But I'm also glad to read that some scientists found a possible bird flu vaccine, even when they had to experiment on mice.
Maybe some clear regulation at the rights of animals other than the cats mentioned above would be nice as well.
(PETA: 2 million members. No chance to get a seat in Congress with this electoral vote system ever.)
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10 waterman .... thank you or that link to the "When does human life begin" article.
Fascinating. I consider myself more informed now, but there are still no easy answers! Still all information adds to genuine debate, for those who are open to different ideas.
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9 david cunard
"President Obama was elected by 53% of the electorate, while the remainder repudiated his proposed policies."
At the risk of being pedantic, Obama was elected by 53% of the turnout, which was roughly 57% of the electorate.
This means that 43% of Americans of voting age could not be bothered to vote in what was arguably the most historic election in living memory.
Of the 57% who voted, 43% disagreed with Obama.
However, numerically 50 million more Americans voted in 2008 than 2004.
source
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781453.html
That said, David, I agree absolutely with your point that socially conservative america is not dead. If anything it is more entrenched than ever, as the fringe of waverers went over to Obama.
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Happylaze 7
Interesting point about animals.
If human life begins at conception, by definition so must all life. Therefore the legal rights of animals must also protect their foetal state, thus ending all experiments on animals.
Now no one would claim to "like" vivisection. However there is the same level of hypocrasy in this field as with the anti-stem cell research crowd.
I personnally have rationalised the good (medical advances etc) that have come from animal experiments against my own personnal distaste for the experiments themselves. I do the same for embryonic stem cells research.
It's a quagmire.
For me bottom line is this .... it's a reality, deal with it. Whether it's stem or animal research .... if you don't like it then boycott all products and drugs and treatments (current or future) derived from these procedures.
I don't want to sound harsh, but it's time for a reality check.
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Justin,
From your link....
" Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Alabama, said the Bush policy imposed ethical limits on science.
"My basic tenet here is I don't think we should create life to enhance life and to do research and so forth," Shelby said."
then please ask him to go on the record as to his position on IVF treatment, as if anything could be said to be "creating life to enhance life" it is IVF treatment for childless couples who are desperate to have children.
I don't wish to sound uncaring to childless couples (I'm not uncaring), but the arguments put forward by opponents of embryonic stem cell research often totally contradict the persons position on other related matters.
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Question .....
Has Obama yet stated whether he will allow funding for all embryonic stem cell research (ie including the creation of embryos/zygotes specifically for research purposes?
Or will it be just for research on pre-existing embryos/zygotes which are surplus from IVF treatment, and would be destroyed anyway?
It's a small point, but it does matter, if only for reasons of clarity. To debate the issue we must have the facts.
Maybe one of you knows.
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An interesting comment in today's London Times newspaper regarding the risk of a 'brain drain' of stemcell researchers and scientist upping sticks from the UK to the US to take advantage of the massively increased funding available for research that will appear after this decision is formally announced. Although one of the world leaders in stemcell research, the UK suffers from chronic underfunding with very little money to go around.
The US decison can only benefit this kind of research and hopefully, create collaborative working between nations.
I understand the previous comments around 'when are going to see any benefits' from this immotive research. But look how much time and money has gone into cancer research. Decade after decade and countless billions and it's only really been in the last 10 years or so that cancer sufferers are somewhat less likely to die through breakthroughs in treatment. There will be breakthroughs due to stemcell research, some I believe will be very profound. As in all research, it just takes time and patience.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I believe in science therefor I am happy about the new move of improved funding in this tabooed discipline of biology. I think one should not predict the outcome of an ongoing research. Specially these predictive comments are warranted from the specialists and not from the public who are not dwelling into hardcore research. These comments set the sentiments in other part of our society which is even more reluctant in surveying the progress. I have been reading the views of public in various domains (political, tactical, and technical research). I understand the political and civil issues where public sentiments adds to the progress of the issue but one should be careful when enter into specialized domains such as "Stem cell". I have been closely associated with stem cell research and have seen huge improvement in its applicability. Its not only done for academic interests but also for the improvement of health sector. I hope that in the time to come, knowledge would help humans to concur the diseases that we are struggling with. At this point, I must make it clear that the very inquisitiveness that tempt us to endeavor (whatever you want to think here, rocket science to environment) is also behind the feeling that what human is developing might interfere in the normal course of nature. Paradox, that it is, that even that thought of caution about interference is an interference in normal course of nature.
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Ref 5, British-ish
"I've always been puzzled (nay mystified) by the right wing's views on sex."
There is a difference between what the religious right say and what they do. The examples set by a famous governor, several "conservative" Congressmen, and well known religious leaders illustrates the dichotomy between their pronouncements and the realities of human desires.
However, I think it is premature to conclude that religion no longer plays the pervasive role in American politics and way of live that it did in the not too distant past.
Large urban areas, particularly those in the West and Northeast have always been fairly liberal, but the American heartland remains as conservative as ever. Our churches fill to capacity every Sunday, there are long waiting lists for those interested in attending religious schools, Christian bookstores are thriving, and opposition to nudity and sex remain as strong as ever in the South and the Bible Belt.
The opinions expressed by Boehner, Shelby and Cantor represent more than personal beliefs, they are intended to convey the values and expectations of their constituents and are essential to guarantee their re-election.
We are simply going through a cyclical social shift influenced by the tendency of social conservatives to over reach and by their failed economic policies. Bear in mind that aside from cost considerations many Americans do not object to our recent crusades and the expansion of the faith, particularly when it is designed to ensure the arrival of the second coming of the Lord.
Your friendly liberal agnostic.
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I hate to break the news to Mr Webb, but a MAJORITY of the Americans consistently defines themselves as somewhat conservative/conservative:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/08/the_biggest_missing_story_in_p.html
Looks like the left wing has decades of work ahead to reverse the trend. Keep up the good work, Mr Webb.
As for faith v. science, one need not go further than the atheist faith v. the Big Bang theory.
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I do not understand why the right wing think they have monopoly of GOD. Why left wing interpretation is always wrong.
I agree with some of left wing and some of right wing. And stem cell is not human as long as it is not harvested from foetes.
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My impression of the changes advanced by President Obama regarding stem cell research is that he is not changing the Dickey-Wicker Amendment, which prohibits the use of federal funds for work that damages a human embryo. In other words, scientists receiving federal grants to conduct stem cell research will not be able to generate new hESC lines.
I don't see the stem cell research policy reversal as a repudiation of Bush's policies, but as a commitment to satisfy a campaign pledge that reflects the wishes of mainstream America. Conservatives and liberals often disagree on many social and religious matters, but most Americans support stem cell research and remain hopeful that it may lead to medical breakthroughs that would cure diseases improve our quality of life.
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Faith and science are not in opposition. They are two facets of human consciousness. Render unto Caesar.....
Salaaaaaam
ed
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On the other hand, Religious or Scientific dogma is the first step on the road to the error of certainty.
Worth a listen...
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We are apt to rehash the same stuff with the same cast of characters we have had since Darwin Day, here.
Let's instead think about how, perhaps, the re-prioritization of the Obama administration's policies to support scientific research can benefit the ECONOMY (stupid).
And how, perhaps, stem-cell research might lead to a cure or a vaccine for juvenile diabetes to help Justin's son?
And how, perhaps, environmental research and honest science can revitalize American industry and put some of our 14% un- and under-employed back to work?
And how, perhaps, we can upgrade our electrical distribution grid to eliminate power outages in winter storms that we KNOW happen in areas that are prone to them...thus putting even more people back to work?
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What I really don't understand is this: George Bush and others on the religious right say that embryonic stem cell research is wrong because all human life is sacred.
So why are they such enthusiastic supporters of the death penalty?
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President Obama had a comment about not politiczing science.
I do not wish to evangeilculs or the Pope sticking their noses in.
but I also do not want the PC crowd opposing those who do not subscribe to Al Gore faulty Global Warming theories.
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Ever heard of PETA?
DC Yes JUST.
but still dogs and cats sit in cages at pet stores awaiting their research facility they could be destined for. if not the local pound where the final solution is applied.
Puppy mills abound in the states.
Peta is considered as the, environmentalists of yesterday(and many still hold that view), to be a bunch of Crazy people.
"oh she 's a spokesperson for Peta " is almost an insult.
Yea Oprah went into it this year for a while but really DC you have to understand the way animal rights are treated in Europe to understand how badly they are addressed here in the states.
222 peter did you ever answer that question on the last blog that you tried to erroneously make your point?
Or are you trying to waste this post with repeats of the same rubbish and baseless accusations of other peoples positions you never understood in the first place?
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22 peter
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/profile?userid=13725906
go on then go to the jindle post and answer this.
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28 disgusted of mithchem.
Well said.
My missus here laughed when she heard the news.
"what about the death penalty"
What a sweety that's why I love her.
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As a cultural conservative Christian adherent, I think Mr. Webb's observation deserves close attention.
That strain of religiously-driven cultural conservatism has always been present in American life, but was given real organizational legs by Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, D. James Kennedy, and James Dobson at Focus on the Family(http://tinyurl.com/b4lhaj).
They successfully articulated (and still do) a widespread sense of unease about the deterioration of American culture, and were able to galvanize their followers around a few very hot-button issues--no need to rehash them here.
What they failed to do, tragically, was to acknowledge that there are tencommandments, all of which carry profound weight. They also did not give adequate weight to Christ's summation of the law and prophets.
Things went so swimmingly for such a long time, with the emphasis upon those cherished issues. In the meantime, the culture they sought to influence grew tired of the self-righteous anger so often spewed from the electronic pulpit. And, when it became obvious that the commandments about stealing, bearing false witness, covetousness, and the Golden Rule summation had been ignored, all with tragic results--understandably there has been a backlash.
Meanwhile, the deterioration of culture has continued apace.
It's time for conservatives to reflect, and hopefully learn some lessons from their failures.
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Oh and Rome Stu . I do get it about choices.
All my make up is all not tested on animals.
I eat meat, I prefer to know it came from a farm not a factory.
As for medicine.
I wouldn't know I can't afford a Doctor anyway;)
As with the stem cell from the right argument that research has found ways to produce stem cells. Ethically OK.
Strangely that was a result of the Ban by Bush.
Now Animals. Could they be taken out of research if we do more for alternatives?
they have been trying for a while now and are getting somewhere. So now some unnecessary research can be stopped.
Will they?
But how do we know.
There are no real checks .
http://www.bushorchimp.com/
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28 DisgustedOfMitcham2 wrote:
"What I really don't understand is this: George Bush and others on the religious right say that embryonic stem cell research is wrong because all human life is sacred.
So why are they such enthusiastic supporters of the death penalty?"
I am no defender of Bush and the religious right, but they generally assert that all INNOCENT life is sacred, thus allowing them to favour the death penalty.
It's a ghastly semantic fudge that I abhor for its hypocracy .... we know there have been errors and innocent people have been executed. Where does that place the state?
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peter that was the wrong link lets see if this gets you back to where you left off.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/jindals_missed_opportunity.html#comment139
I think it will.
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30, happylaze - "but still dogs and cats sit in cages at pet stores awaiting their research facility they could be destined for. if not the local pound where the final solution is applied."
I think there should be a PETPWWP (People for the Ethical Treatment of People Who Want Pets).
In the ads in the local paper for apartments or rental houses, every single one says: "No pets." The animal shelters are overflowing and people who would love to adopt a dog or cat are denied this because they don't happen to be able to own their home.
I live in an apartment now with my cat, but my landlords made an exception for me because I am an exceptionally desirable tenant and have friends in high places (i.e., people who happen to be good friends with my landlords and gave me and my cat an excellent reference).
This discrimination is harmful to people and animals, but I guess it provides more animals for research. So it's nasty all around.
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Old South, Namaste
Well said. Thanks.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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33 Old south being me, I am going to have to berate you, verbally insult you and carry on at you.
BUT you seem to have written a letter that is pretty close to the money it seems. So I won't.
;)
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34 happy
My post wasn't actully a dig at you at all. I re-read and it wasn't as clear as I though when I write it. The last couple of sentences were addressed to the world in general, not you specifically.
I was really just bouncing some ideas around my head about hypocracy in many different areas (and I don't claim to be immune to it myself - it is almost impossible to live "ethically" in the modern world.)
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38 Bere.
I'm in agreement about housing being restricted. but that is often to do with the general nasal intolerance in the states.
Now needless to say I am in favour of adopting cats. The sale should be banned and the same with dogs.(yea I know putting good breeders out of business) but until the thousands in pounds are housed sales should be banned. but go into a pet store and just watch the staff if you ask about the mill they were from.
(we do have some stores that are actually fronts for the local rescue service. Good OK recycled. good)
And yes it provides for the research.
Now as to the cat in the room. I am lucky he cannot spray.(admittedly I wouldn't have to truck him around with me if that weren't the problem).
I do wonder the stem cells I believe could lead to some more animal free testing.
Grow what needs to be tested. etc.
Stu I have long wondered how the right for lifers plan to argue that creating cells lives that have no future but to remain frozen until the power runs out. the laudable effort to give couples the chance to have their own baby will create possible millions of "souls" to be sent into oblivion when the power is finally run out.
are they going to fight for the rights of these cells to be allowed to go to full term, should we invest in the breeding chambers now so we can start pumping them out?
Fertility treatment seems to be the gateway procedure that leads to so many souls being left to degenerate in a frozen waste.
FREE THE FOETUSES.we need to build metal wombs to allow these refugees of science to express themselves.
;)
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ref #9
You mean People Eating Tasting animals?
Justin you should show the same disdain for this group. they would gladly see millions die if it stopped all animal research.
As Michael Wilbon once said let them get gored at "The Running of the Bulls
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Remember that our pets (and probably most animals in research facilities) live better than half the world's children And so do my my friendly squirrels
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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evangeilculs.
makes me think
evangeliculls
A bit extreme I think, but I like it.
I'll file that with Palinolithic for future reference.
No reference to the many that have found Christ.
Maybe some to a few that think finding christ is what they need for their career.
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Justin
I to have faith in the scientific and analyses of factual information. I wish your son and humanity benefit from the right to inquire.
I also hope that BBC will soon recognise that Kosovo is an independent state and not longer a territory, and like the religious zealots will hopefully one day realise that they should talk about facts that affect our lives rather than the damn bible of quran the BBC too should recognise the fact that KOSOVA will never be part of Serbia and recognise it as an independent state.
I apologise for the digression but the BBC can easily be compared to the most notorious form of conservativeness.
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A Sign of Spring? A Mad March Hare....
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Stu no offence taken just arguing the toss.
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ps I'm doing the same. about the hypocricy. and about the comic book style world we are heading towards.
Did anyone see "Watchmen "yet?
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14. RomeStu: "At the risk of being pedantic, Obama was elected by 53% of the turnout, which was roughly 57% of the electorate."
My error, written in haste, but thanks for the correction, although I think the states' count was correct. Your final paragraph hits the nail on the head.
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Utterly disingenuous and misleading.
Webb is ignoring the fact that, unknown to many, embryonic stem cell research has been around for 50 years and produced nothing. The public funding debate thus began because private money was going to adult and umbilical stem cells which boast dozens of successful human trials for a host of diseases, including diabetes. Embryonic trials, on the other hand, have not only cured nothing but produced horrific side-effects.
One then must wonder as to the blind faith motivations of the proponents of embryonic stem cell research.
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And as if to prove we are related to monkeys
I present exhibit number 43.
who was trying to show DC how human we are.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7928996.stm
Now this smart Chimp has got the Idea.
Bit like Gherkin who saves up his insults for later and caches random misfacts for hurling at those outside his mental cage.
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Justin,
I do not like your characterization of the stem cell debate as "faith vs. science." Science says nothing at all about morals and values--what is valuable and why, what our moral goals should be, etc. It may help us clarify certain things--what science teaches us about the development of human beings, our evolutionary origins, etc. are certainly not irrelevant to normative questions. But they are not sufficient to answer them either. All that to say, then, that one can have no problem whatsoever with science and its aims, and indeed be quite scientifically aware, and yet still oppose stem cell research on moral grounds. That is completely different than, for example, denying the truth of evolutionary theory or global warming. In the case of stem cells, as in the case of abortion, there really isn't a good "X vs. Y" characterization of the conflict, because you can have people of all views and persuasions on both sides. I'll admit that, practically speaking, most opponents of stem cell research are very socially conservative, and may have many other views that would rightly be characterized as "unscientific"--but there's no *necessary* connection there.
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44 Ed true about better than the worlds kids.( many more than others)
But that is no excuse for it.
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Mr. Webb, you join President Obame in running behind the facts. March 1st witnessed new breakthroughs making the unethical practises a thing of the past. Unless, - of course - one choses not to have regard for life. Then we can do what we want. I, for one, am grateful that it is not another human being that determines what makes up human life. Human life is human life: Big or small.
Ref: Scientists' stem cell breakthrough ends ethical dilemma
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/mar/01/stem-cells-breakthrough
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33, OldSouth: "Meanwhile, the deterioration of culture has continued apace."
Sorry to nitpick about an otherwise thoughtful posting, but . . . I will anyway.
The deterioration of THE culture (as opposed to just culture) is, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder. One person's deterioration is another's progress. Every generation has bemoaned the deterioration of the culture. It has become trite.
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43 oooohhhh oohhh aaaahhaahahahaeeeee ooo uugg
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56 bere
Agreed about the "culture".
Unfortunately I think Old south is maybe in the majority.
And right.
I wish it were not so. but.
good nit to pick.
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re: 42. happylaze:
Let's not lump all breeders and all purebred animals together. I would love to adopt a pound cat, but I have severe allergies. I once took in a stray in the middle of winter, but had to confine it to the basement and wear long sleeves and gloves around it until I could find it a home. I'm that sensitive. If I walk into the home of someone who has a cat, within minutes I'm wheezing. And don't tell me I should smoke a joint, we've already had that conversation :-)
Much later, when my son was little, he was desperate for a pet. I did some research and discovered Cornish Rexes, which have a different kind of coat than other cats. They don't shed (as much) and thus many people who are allergic to cats can tolerate Rexes. The thing is, it's the result of a recessive trait. You can only get a Rex by breeding two Rexes, and they're not that common. So you basically have to go to a breeder. We found a Rex breeder who had a retired show cat she was looking to place in a home and we got the cat very cheap. My son was delighted and the cat had the undivided attention of three people, which is what she felt she deserved. We kept her for another 15 years until she died of kidney disease at the age of 19. She was a great cat and a good friend.
So there are good breeders and good purebred cats.
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I agree the conservatives and radical evagelicals are hardly on the wane. If anything, they are penetrating American cities, even New York City. What exacerbates this problem (and it is a problem) is the false dichotomy of faith versus science. Call me crazy, but the two are not mutally exclusive.
Another part of the problem was beautifully put by "Old South." There is moral decay. Anyone who dares to say that out loud is labelled as conservative and a crazy evangelical or anti-sex. There is a false dichotomy between moral and open-minded. We associate "moral" with the Moral Majority and with very narrow subjects such as sexuality and abortion.
Heaven forbid we should apply morality to Wall Street or politicians who vote against the common social good. The greed that brought us to this financial mess is sinful. There, I said it. "Sinful." It has been a terribly misused word and hence terribly dangerous. But why do we associate the loudly self-righteous as more religeous, more faithful?
Quite frankly, a prostitute could and probably is more moral than a Bernie Madoff, or a televangelist who steals money from his flock and cheats on his wife. And I can think of a few gay folks who lead beautiful lives of love and service. It all comes down to how you treat those around you.
For example, sending soldiers off to war while gleefully calling it a "cake walk" is infinitely more sinful than turning tricks.
The public discourse on ethics has been terribly hindered by false dichotomies.
BTW: Is it really ethical to say that since post-born life isn't innocent it should not be protected? What a frightening thought. Even Bernie, the prostitute, and the hypocritical televangelist deserve to be treated with respect while fulling answering to the law.
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"The stem cell decision is indeed a repudiation of a Bush policy but it is more: the strange death of socially conservative America, which began in the mid-terms in 2006, continues apace."
That would be why gay marriage was recently re-banned in several states (on the same night as the Obama election just to add), and many still oppose this move, but it being a matter of a president Obama (and his administration) has carte blanche over it just as Bush did. It is not indicative of any change in popular American values; I suspect that much the same people have similar views now to their views 5 years ago.
Justin, you're clearly seeing things as you want to see them, as opposed to how they actually are.
Incidentally, the big breakthrough of March 1, great news though it may be, does not end the stem cell research as an issue because IPS cell technology is not expected to be able to take over from embryos for quite a few years yet. So the ethical dilemma is very much still an issue.
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come on peter, evolve some squirrel food.
what say you?
;)
55.
yea now if we can just gait a little longer for this to be perfected we are off.
Are you into banning the criminal creation of souls destined to decay in the cryo chambers;)
Oh and the death penalty.
OH and the really big one. the present ongoing effort to eradicate the human species through Ignorance, global warming and the continued creation of technologies that do nothing to increase life,for the lord,on this planet,but destroy it for some.
are you also against those that die of problems caused by gluing your shoes together . Or are their lives not worth so much as those unborn cell collections.
Miners die because of cheap bosses. they are murderers too.
God miscarries some .
Are we to prevent his will being thwarted by preventing premature baby clinics.
God wanted that child dead.
Or so some could argue.
Though I'm in agreement that
"Human life is human life: Big or small."
So I will take this chance to say, why give money to Israel that they use to kill people.In strictly numerical terms way more than the Palestinians kill.
That is money used to Kill people.
Does that count?
The state sponsors it.
War Kills I'm fully in favour of banning war.
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re. 56. bere54:
Believe it or not, Roman writers bemoaned the deterioration of Roman culture for several centuries. It was kind of a literary theme for cranky old patricians. Gibbon took them seriously and went and wrote "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire". So the deterioration of the culture has been around for a while as a literary theme.
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I think this decision revisits attention on an ethical inconsistency that stem cell opponents have: one can't logically be against stem cell science and approve of In Vitro Fertilization (from whence the stem cells come). If stem cell opponents would oppose IVF, then I could at least applaud their consistency. But until then this issue is an artificial battle line in the culture wars that doesn't deserve respect.
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If Mr Cantor does not wish to see lift taken with taxpayer's dollars maybe he should look again at the funding for the death penalty and for the armed forces. I'm sure he knows his position on both of these things and perhaps he might want to bring his views on ESC research into line with these (or less likley - vice versa)
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Justin I count myself as very lucky that myself and my family have not had to face any major health issues of the type you mention. And I applaud the move to allow stem cell research.. However, I would say that Western medicine has been promsing the wonder cure for many things and it is always just around the next corner and often dissapoints (e.g. inteferon). I think stem cell reseach will probably yield more knowledge whether it actually yields substantial treatments remains to be seen.
Rather than cure we need prevention. We know how to prevent most cancer now - we lack the political will to create the lifestyle, econimic and political, changes that would do this.
The causes of Type I diabetes is perhaps less solidly understood but the whole field of auto-immunity is probably bound up with our present health practices that cause the immune system to missfire. There is increasing evidence that Crohns disease for example may be related to our having too effectively removed our intestinal parasites. Our over emphasis on hygiene may be partly responsible for rising childhood leukaemia. And our prevention of the common childhood illnesses may also be contributing to these missfirings of the immune systems. We buy prevention of these illnesses for many perhaps at a price to a minority.
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tim
And don't tell me I should smoke a joint, we've already had that conversation :-)
yea no help there.;)
on the cats good for trying.
we also have inherited someone's pedigree "rag doll".
Just needs to be kept away from fleas or it gets allergies itself.
but though there are good breeders and well breed out there the point made about Crufts. the inbreeding.
Anyway all can be found at the pound in the end.
Now here's a strange thing. Cats used to make me itch and sneeze when I was a kid.
longer fur more so.
now no problem.
Now I am sure you do not agree that Pot should be banned because of a few misfits.though it is.
And I will take it that Dog breeding will not be banned because of the misfits.though it should be.
I know a few people who breed. we don't often discus this.
I wonder why.
tried a ferret?
oh and spay and neuter should be free.
Animals will happen without breeders.
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natalie you're right.
64 exactly.
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OldSouth, I concur. But, I think that we'll get
back on track. One has to believe in the redemptive
power of the Word of God.
Or, of course, the death penalty when the Logos
isn't fast enough. But, I digress...
The problem that I have with Cantor's statement
is the part where he says:
Frankly, federal funding of embryonic stem-cell research can bring on embryo harvesting, perhaps even human cloning that occurs," Cantor said. "We don't want that. That shouldn't be done. That's wrong."
That's like saying that driving a car could cause
an accident, so we should outlaw cars. (looks
like they may be on their own way out, but...)
We've always had fine edges in the relationship
between science and religion, and the job of
politicians and other leaders is to find those
edges so that we can come up with a workable
compromise.
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And, now, because I am not an expert on the technology,
I was wondering if someone reading this who happens
to be one could answer the following question
about stem cells:
If a stem cell obtained from an arbitrary source
is implanted into a human body, why doesn't
the new host reject it? It doesn't have the genetic
composition of the new host, so why would
its protein coat be compatible?
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The one thing that confuses me regarding the Repubicans' response is the "destruction of human life." From what I am aware of, if a couple has embryos left at the end of IVF, they are given the option to either freeze the embryos or destroy them. How is this different than obtaining embryonic stem cells? The only one that I can see is the one can lead to a better life for someone else while the other leads to nothing.
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It is not putting faith above science; it is putting morality and ethics above greed.
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I have lived in the United States for over 20 years and I really love it most of the time, but I really get annoyed when people try and force their religous beliefs into my life.
When the only argument for not doing something is "it's against gods will" who's god is my answer. Just because you believe that something is wrong, doesn't mean it should be the law for everyone.
I am a christian and believe in god, but I also believe that god made faith, man made religion. All religious books were written by man to explain the unexplained at that moment in time, times have changed and so have we, and believing that your way is the right way and everyone else must conform it wrong. If you believe that stem sell research from embryos is wrong then don't use the results of the research no one is saying you have to, but stopping people from this just because it is against your beliefs is equally wrong. It's the same for abortion, if you think it's wrong don't have one, but don't tell other people they can't.
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Justin seems to have lost the plot again. The fact, if it is a fact, that a burst of stem cell research might create 5,000 taxpayer funded jobs in New York is of no relevance to US economic recovery, if you believe, as most Republicans presumably do, that taxpayer funded jobs reduce overall employment (ie the costs destroy more private sector jobs than are created in the public sector.) This is hardly a vapid commentary - it's core Republican economic doctrine. Of course if you think core Republican economic doctrine is vapid in itself, fine, but then you have to go and work for the Guardian rather than the BBC which at least makes a pretence at balance.
If you think creating 5,000 extra taxpayer funded jobs will lift the US economy up by its bootstraps there's no conceivable reason why they need to be in stem cell research. They could just as well be taxpayer funded jobs for creationist teachers. Or perhaps for journalists at taxpayer funded media outlets.
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63, timohio: "So the deterioration of the culture has been around for a while as a literary theme."
I think it's been a theme, literary or otherwise, as long as there's been a human culture. There seem to be no new themes. For instance, for as long as I can remember, people have been bemoaning the state of education in this country.
People shuddered about the deterioration of morals back when women dared to show their ankles. And when they bobbed their hair.
Way back in the olden days there were some pretty immoral practices that weren't considered immoral at the time. Cultures change; morals change. So whenever I hear or read that phrase, "the deterioration of [whatever]," I just chuckle or sigh.
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Ref. 70:
"If a stem cell obtained from an arbitrary source
is implanted into a human body, why doesn't
the new host reject it? "
It does.
http://stemcells.nih.gov/info/basics/basics5.asp
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66, AAPrescott: "We know how to prevent most cancer now - we lack the political will to create the lifestyle, econimic and political, changes that would do this."
So you're one of those who thinks that people get cancer through their own damn fault? Has someone discovered how to prevent breast cancer and no one told me? If you're talking about early detection and treatment, that's a whole different thing from prevention.
I'm rather sensitive about this since I got colon cancer at a fairly young age (43) and had a lifestyle that supposedly should have prevented this. I was a vegetarian, a runner, not old, not fat, never ate at MacDonald's, no family history of colon cancer. My doctor was taken aback because I met none of the criteria he expected for colon cancer. And yet there was that nasty tumor.
I may be dim, but I fail to see how political changes are going to prevent cancer.
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#7 Happylaze
Re: animal rights
I think US law on animal rights is poor - I believe the law-makers have an issue with the concept of bestowing Rights on non-Humans.
As a vegetarian I fully agree with Kant's observation that cruelty to animals degrades the moral character of those who commit it. Personally I can't see much difference between inflicting needless pain for kicks on an animal than performing them on humans.
Going to the supermarket we see rows and rows of pre-packed meat from killed animals as if they were never beings, as if they are merely things for our consumption. Should we not be too surprised if we treat our fellow human beings as things for us to use?
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As the Biblical Book of Job makes clear, true faith is completely independent of knowledge and experience. Those who wish to make knowledge conform to their belief systems display a total lack of genuine faith. They can't feel secure in their faith unless everyone else is forced by law, with its implicit threat of physical force, to agree with them.
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PS cell technology is not expected to be able to take over from embryos for quite a few years yet. So the ethical dilemma is very much still an issue.
-------------------------------------
Well, if there is an ethical dilemma (at least in the minds of the capital "C" very big stick to hit you with Christians), it should far transcend whether stem cells from embryos are used in research. Following the right wing fundamentalists to their logical conclusion, if the refrigeration at an IVO clinic goes off because of negligence (they forgot to pay the electric bill) and the frozen embryos die, then someone is responsible for manslaughter or murder in a massive way. For that matter, what about when the "donors" say not to store the embryos any more and they are "murdered?"
Of course, the even more extreme wing of the fundamentalists believe that even eggs are sacrosanct "human life." Perhaps their slogan is "menstruation is murder?"
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72, colorado, that's right, once we put the corporate
world take control of such matters, we are done.
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re. 67. happylaze:
Yes, our Rex had allergies too. I used to joke that the cat and I were allergic to one another.
If I got another Rex, I would try working with a Rex rescue group like this one:
http://www.cornishrexfriends.org/
But the process of nursing our cat through her final illness was painful and I think I need to wait before getting another pet.
I think you can outgrow allergies. Perhaps that is what happened to you. A lot of animal allergies are actually not to the animal itself, but to the mites that live in their shed fur. And if the animal doesn't go outside, they are less likely to bring in parasites or insects in their fur that you would be allergic to.
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An interesting, and I suspect unintentional, outcome of this change in federal policy may be the need to expand the H1b visa program to satisfy demand for experienced qualified scientists to pursue what so many hope may cure so many debilitating diseases.
I am an agnostic, but I embrace the Ten Commandments not because I attribute mythical powers to them, but because I consider them a good compass to lead my life. We must, however, apply logic to our values and must be willing to compromise or interpret things logically. If we apply the strict meaning of the word to the sixth commandment we will have to become vegetarians, end all wars and other forms of violence, end manufacturing and sales of weapons, end the death penalty. and will have to make decisions such as saving the life of a mother unable to carry her pregnancy to full term safely or saving her fetus. That is, if the life we value is not limited to the unborn...
The solution, IMO, is to let the government govern pragmatically in accordance with the tenets in the Constitution and the requirements needed to preserve our way of life and security, and stop insisting on the inclusion of religious or non-religious beliefs in government policy.
Religion belongs in church, the privacy of our homes, and as a moral compass to govern our lives by. Under no circumstances should we impose our values on those who do not share or reject them.
Unfortunately, religious fanatism goes well beyond objection to scientific research; it is often the basis for war, cultural intolerance, and rejection of the rights of others both at home and abroad.
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"It is not putting faith above science; it is putting morality and ethics above greed."
Dear coloradogramma what does stem cell research have to do with greed. At this moment in time scientists are spending money, not trying to make money.Please tell me why are your ethics better than mine. I feel I have great ethics I don't steal, I try to help my neighbour, just because I believe that stem cells could help the world does not make me unethical or amoral.
Why do some people equate morality and ethics with religion, when some of the most unethical and amoral people have been heads of religions.
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Justin, thankyou once again for an interesting post.
However I'd long to draw attention to your title - that of faith v science. As an evangelical Christian, it is deeply frustrating to see the suggestion that to have faith results in an incompatibility with a belief in Christ. I personally have a deep seated interest in science (physics, chemistry, biology) and am particularly excited by many areas of scientific innovation and development. To see the ways in which scientific advancement has and is contributing to so many areas of life is both inspiring and exciting.
And I am not alone in such interests and passions. I attend an evangelical church which is filled with people working in many areas of the sciences (research and teaching) and medical professions. It is, as someone suggestion on this board already, a case of at times questioning whether all scientific advancment and investigation is good, and that is when we might defer to our faith first.
However, when that faith led questioning of a treatment has implications for the health of others it is an exceptionally difficult dilema for many Christians (who too may have loved ones who benefit from the treatment). It is not something from which Christians are removed. Many highly intelligent Christians who face issues related to health struggle, but their faith is above those struggles. For those Christians it may lead to a case in which they trust God in the situation.
But, the question is does that mean that those who are not Christians should be constrained by similar beliefs? We (Christians) believe that there are reasons why stem cell therapy is not ideal, but those are related to our faith, and I think to pass a law that affects society as a whole is not necessarily the right thing to do. This is especially given that people who are not Christians do not necessarily hold to the same principles. It should, rather, be the case that if people believe a treatment based on stem cell research to be wrong it has come from their own heart being led to that position by God, rather that it being a situation dictated to by law.
In other words, whilst I have doubts over stem cell experimentation, I also believe that it is not necessarily wise (or infact right) for the Christian community to dictate the law so as to attempt to steer those who aren't Christians towards Christian morality. That morality is a reflection (or should be a reflection) of someones faith.
In any case I dearly hope that your son benefits from a treatment soon Justin.
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76 AndyPost wrote:
"Ref. 70:
"If a stem cell obtained from an arbitrary source is implanted into a human body, why doesn't the new host reject it? "
It does.
http://stemcells.nih.gov/info/basics/basics5.asp"
Ah, but does it?
From your own link
"Embryonic stem cells from a donor introduced into a patient could cause transplant rejection. However, whether the recipient would reject donor embryonic stem cells has not been determined in human experiments."
It's the last paragraph. Key words are "could" and "has not determined in human experiments".
Which is why funding for continuing this research is important. Speculation and religion should not be allowed to delay this research any further.
From the news this evening.... Obama has now reversed the ban.....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7929690.stm
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ref #78
As an omnivore I will eat Bambi and Thumper.
And if I even won a major lottery, I would open a Brazillians Steak House with a Lobster Tank next to PETA headquarters
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There is an African American Gospel Song that goes: HOW DID YOU FEEL WHEN YOU CAME OUT OF THE WILDERNESS? The refrain is: I DID FEEL GOOD WHEN I CAME OUT OF THE WILDERNESS LEANING ON THE LORD!
This is how I feel since George W. Bush is gone to history and his story.
There is another song that states: IF THE PREACHER DON'T DO RIGHT, PUT THE PREACHER OUT THE CHURCH AND LET THE CHURCH ROLL ON. Then it goes on to name the various bodies of the Church: IF THE CHIOR DON'T SING RIGHT, PUT THE CHIOR OUT THE CHURCH AND LET THE CHURCH ROLL ON!
The Republicans were not doing right so US put the Republicans out of office now the U.S. can roll on with the business of taking religion out of science.
It is possible to hold two thoughts in one head: Creationism and Science; a belief in both, one religious, and the other scientific. Only a fool would do otherwise. But sensible people let a fool take their lives over for 8 years.
NEVER AGAIN!
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78, dceiler.
Dear vegetarian, Has it ever occured to you that vegetables are also alive and that we kill them so that we can eat them? Actually we eat some of them while they are still alive. If you cut off the top of a carrot and plant it, it will grow a new root and foliage, so when you eat a raw carrot you are crunching it to death with your teeth.
The only reason we feel more sorry for cows is that the are closer to us than a carrot.
We are omnivors. We are designed to eat both meat and vegetables. We could, of course, stop eating and let all these animals and vegetables live. Then animals can eat us and our rotting bodies can provide nutrients for vegetables.
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73, plumbing.
"If you believe that stem sell research from embryos is wrong then don't use the results of the research no one is saying you have to, but stopping people from this just because it is against your beliefs is equally wrong. It's the same for abortion, if you think it's wrong don't have one, but don't tell other people they can't."
This is my stance (as an athiest). Many believers, such as you, have views identical to mine. Unfortunately the only religious voices we hear about in the press are those from the extreme right. This distorts perception and often erroneously results in anti-relgious fervor.
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Why is there such a focus on embryonic stem cells?
Only recently it was reported that skin cells could be used with the same effect.
There is something wrong with a society that consumes it's own young!
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52, happy.
It is not just chimps who plan an attack. I have had monkeys. Yes, they plan. We had a male macaque who was a nasty piece of work. He bit out of sheer aggression. But sometime he planned to bite. One day he got loose and we had trouble catching him. He jumped on my shoulder and the other person present said, "OK. Now you can catch him." I said, "No, he will bite me as soon as I grab him."
So I let him sit there while I was trying to figure out what to do. I was wearing overalls that had a center pocket on the chest. In it I had a comb. When I wouldn't grab the monkey, he grabbed the comb. When I instinctively went for the comb, he bit me. He was planning to bite me all along and the comb gave him an excuse. How did I know? The same way you understand another human being.
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#77. bere54 "So you're one of those who thinks that people get cancer through their own damn fault?"
Amen to that! I had a physically active life (weight training) ate all the 'right' things, didn't smoke, drank in moderation and yet a soft tissue sarcoma popped up in my abdomen, requiring colon resection and more recently additional surgery which included a femoral bypass. I had no symptoms and these were both found with regular scans.
If we are to be cancer free, then a meatless diet could be one step in the right direction - I am told that in Japan, where meat is very expensive and eaten far less than in the USA, the incidence of cancer is lower. However, when Japanese immigrants adopt a Western (American) diet, the incidence of cancer rises dramatically. But I cannot foresee a meatless America - steak and other cuts of beef are ingrained in the American psyche as being a sign of "success". If eating meat really is the cause of some kinds of cancer, Americans will continue to contract it in addition to the problems caused by obesity.
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78, ddeiler.
Another thought for vegetarians. If you are on your own in the wilderness and are hungry, you are not going to shoot a carrot.
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85, RomeStu.
Presuming rejection, what has not been discussed is the production of embryos by the doner for his own treatment. That will create another furor.
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91, michael.
"There is something wrong with a society that consumes it's own young!"
These "young" were never going to have a life. They were going to be allowed to die. Why not use these doomed cells to preserve life?
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Dear mods.
Re: #92. I related a story of a monkey who planned to bite (a followup of planning by a chimp). Why has this harmless comment not been printed?
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Thank you mods for restoring #92.
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If Obama is serious about science.
He should repudiate the environmental nitwits who know nothing about science. Lift the off shore drilling ban and commence fast nuclear power plant construction
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89, allmymarbles -
Someone I once knew told me she could hear vegetables scream when she cut into them. (But this same person also told me that when she had a miscarriage at about 6 weeks, a tiny perfectly-formed baby came out - kind of like Thumbelina, I guess). She was a confirmed meat-eater and was mocking me for not eating meat.
For the record, the reason I am a vegetarian is because many years ago I read a long and very grossly detailed article about slaughter houses, which talked about things like puss pockets and how much fecal matter the law permits to be left in what ends up on the table. Ever since, whenever I've looked at a piece of meat I can't help thinking about puss pockets and fecal matter. It does something to the appetite, you know?
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#93, DC, I would suspect that there may be something in the meat that shouldn't be there. I blame sabotage by PETA. It couldn't possibly be growth hormones, could it?
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95 allmymarbles wrote:
"Presuming rejection, what has not been discussed is the production of embryos by the doner for his own treatment. That will create another furor. "
Wasn't there a film about that a few years ago - "The Island" - where they had cloned rich people to have a "body double" in case of major illness.
It's a whole new can of worms.
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91 michaeld99 wrote:
"There is something wrong with a society that consumes it's own young!"
Consumes it's own young!!!!!! Nice to see you can engage in rational debate.
If you disagree with embryonic stem cell research then why don't you round up all the other antis and post a public statement that none of you will ever take up any form of treatment derived from this research. No treatment will be mandatory.
Go on, make a real stand ..... and then you'll be putting your money where your mouth is.
Perhaps we could have a system similar to donar cards, only reversed - carry a medical card expressly forbidding any future treatment based on embryonic stem cell research.
If there are so many millions of people who think (?) like you, then why did Obama get elected, with this as a campaign promise?
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100. bere.
"...I read a long and very grossly detailed article about slaughter houses, which talked about things like puss pockets and how much fecal matter the law permits to be left in what ends up on the table."
Yuk. I understand how you feel. That is why we only buy meat from a small organic proudcer in Pennsylvania. He also grows his own organic feed. The chickens we buy are range. All the contaminated meat comes from large producers. Just think. One infected animal can contaminate huge shipments of ground beef. Anyone who eats at a franchise restaurent or from a supermarket has little understanding of the chance he takes.
Funny that you should say your strange friend says she can hear vegetables screaming. That is how I joke with vegetarians. "Can't you hear that carrot scream?" However I do not hallucinate, which makes me less interesting.
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With regard to faith, this article from The Telegraph may be of interest, although it appears slightly contradictory since it states that Christian-based faiths such as evangelism and born again movements are becoming increasingly popular, with 44 per cent of America's 77 million Christian adults professing to being "born again" or evangelical. The latter would appear to negate Justin's claim of "the strange death of socially conservative America."
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You are right when you say this move represents a shift in the "way of life." I am someone who has some mixed feelings on the morality of the issue of stem cell research. However, I do not have mixed feelings on the statement that we as Americans have "repudiated a way of life that puts faith above science." Science is by its very nature a non-ethical entity. Science is intended to pursue facts, but it cannot be asked to do more than it is intended. I am not going to ever be able to discover the "whys" of life via science--that is whether we "ought" or "ought-not" to do something. I hope that we have not abandoned faith (which is the driving force shaping the morality of masses of people around the world) as being a restraint on our scientific progress.
While science is a noble endeavor indeed, there must be limitations along our quest for knowledge or the pursuit will consume us, ordering the terms of our advances, it will eventually become our master. And if this mastery of science over faith and reasonable moral doubt becomes a reality--at that dark moment when eventual mistakes and atrocities happen, we will be left sheepishly looking around mumbling that we were "just following orders."
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It is possible, despite what some people choose to believe, to have moral doubts on any particular subject without having religious faith.
I heard a report on the radio today about a study of 3-year-olds which indicates that even at that age they have distinct ideas of right and wrong. They know it is wrong to hit someone. They know this is a rule their teacher cannot change even if she/he wants to, because no matter what the teacher says it would still be wrong to hit someone. This understanding comes before they can have had serious religious brainwashing.
There may in fact be some moral issues involved with embryonic stem cell research, but if these doubts are brought on solely by religious faith then they should not be considered.
Morals and religion are two discrete subjects.
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re. 99. MagicKirin:
"...commence fast nuclear power plant construction."
I live within 50 miles of two nuclear power plants, both of which have had serious safety problems. Both were, for different reasons at different times, quite close to breaching their containment vessels. One is just south of Detroit, the other is just west of Cleveland. Given the prevailing winds, if either one had gone, there would have been massive loss of life and long-term health problems. The one near Cleveland was run by the same power company which, as a result of their negligence, caused the massive blackout of the whole Northeast a few years ago. They managed the nuclear reactor with the same cheerful disregard for proper standards.
There are very good reasons for not "commencing fast nuclear power plant construction". Power companies are not scientific enterprises, they are profit making companies which are frequently tempted to cut corners, especially if the government has loosened restrictions and oversight, which is what happened during the Bush years.
I'm not necessarily opposed to nuclear power. The French have gone into it in a big way, and they seem to be doing it safely. But then the French are burdened with all those pesky government regulations that conservatives in the US object to.
It's not as cut and dried as you make it seem.
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re. 100. bere54:
Ah, sometime I should tell you the story about taking my toddler son to the local turkey farm. The turkeys were free range, fed on locally grown corn, and humanely treated up to the final moment. And I can personally attest to them being free range. We were almost trampled. Turkeys are BIG birds, y'know? Bigger than a toddler. Pretty funny in retrospect.
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re. 107. bere54:
By 3 years, kids have had a fair amount of conditioning, which is different from religious teaching. They don't on their own know it's wrong to hit someone. Sadly, kids from bad family environments live in homes where people get hit a lot. So they never develop a sense that it's wrong. Some of them go on to abuse others.
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108, timohio -
We have a similar problem with the Vermont Yankee nuclear power plant. There seem to be frequent safety issues and they always say, "Oops, well, there was never any danger." Now Entergy, which owns it, is trying to get permission to keep it running long past when it was supposed to be shut down, while spending the money they were supposed to have set aside for its safe shut-down.
I think this is another one of those things where perhaps "nationalization" might be the solution. Where profits are concerned, safety always takes a back seat. And speaking of back seats, would we ever have had safer cars if regulations had not required it?
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Philosopher Engineer (106),
I'm sure you would enjoy reading "Life is a Miracle", a slim volume which is largely taken up with an ethical/moral refutation of E O Wilson's Consilience in its attempt to unify "all knowledge" (under cience, of course). A link to the eponymous essay upon which the book is based.
Bill Mckibben's review
Happy reading
ed
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107, bere.
" heard a report on the radio today about a study of 3-year-olds which indicates that even at that age they have distinct ideas of right and wrong."
I am one of those people whose memory goes back to a very young age. I can remember sitting in my highchair wearing Indian beaded slippers. I picked all the beads off knowing it was the wrong thing to do and they they would never be beautiful again. But I could not stop myself. I definitely felt guilt. I still have one of the slippers (sans beads) and it is very small. I could not have been more than two years old.
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#9
David,
Yeah baby! Yeah!
Austin Sam
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#26
Ed,
I have always believed Dogma is the death of thought.
Thank you,
Sam
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#99
Magic,
That was a wonderful non-sequitur.
What part of site surveys and containment building design and construction isn't scientific?
When it comes to nukes, hope is not an option. Or as the residents of Chernobyl said:
'Crap'
Sad Sam
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#100
Bere,
May I suggest hunting? The two Does I take each year provide 70% of our red meat. Duck and pheasant provide much of the rest.
For fish I do have to admit that we go to the big organic 'Whole' guys for sustainable fisheries. I'm just not good with a rod and tackle (tackle without the rod is a different discussion).
I guarantee it is all free range, sustainable and if you clean it yourself you can be sure of no contamination.
If that is a little too red in tooth and claw I can recommend the Amish products available at that same chain or in local farmers markets in the NE. The Amish are meticulous in the way they treat their animals.
Red Meat Sam
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#91
Michael,
'It was reported' is not the same as 'Was published in a scientific journal'.
'It was reported' tends to happen an awful lot when there is a vote in congress, but is never supported by data and has never been proposed as a scientific hypothesis.
If I could offer a metaphor. Following a recent marital spat that Sam was an 'inattentive spouse' based upon a six month break in 'marital relations' it was reported that Sam is 'the greatest lover in human history' and is in posession of wedding vegetables 'beyond the normal scientific parameters'.
Looks great. All wrong.
Scientist Sam
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#101. seanspa: "#93, DC, I would suspect that there may be something in the meat that shouldn't be there."
I don't think so - the whole range of meat products is supposedly a risk factor, as this article on cancer preventiondemonstrates. You might also Google 'meat consumption and cancer' for additional information. Of course, the additives pose an additional problem but it does seem that meat itself is part of the problem - even Sam's two deer, pheasant and other game (#117). But who knows what they may eat which also might be carcinegeous? Even a worm may no longer be entirely "organic" since pollutants fall to earth and are digested.
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Whether or not the Republican parties various ethical stances betray a certain inconsistency, the fact that there is a real philosophic issue surrounding the stem cell debate should be noted. Certain qualms that are espoused by the Christian right seem to alienate the public against members of society they think of as fanatic and uncompromising, also poorly worded arguments so obviously dogmatic that no one takes seriously their case. It is, however, detrimental to the fact that there are some very good arguments against this sort of medical research, which entails the murder of innocent human beings. It is in the spirit of “so-called” progress that “whatever can be done, should be done!”, and whoever gainsays the status quo of the scientific community gets shot down. The opposition cannot so easily be dismissed as pseudo-scientific dogma propagated by religious fanatics with ideological axes to grind. The question is divisive because the gap is not scientific, but metaphysical, which is why so many would have us believe that science has proved beyond a doubt that an embryo is not a human person.
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120 jhnewman
"Certain qualms that are espoused by the Christian right seem to alienate the public against members of society they think of as fanatic and uncompromising"
The Christian Right is entitled to its opinion/belief, but if it was at least consistent then it would receive more respect for those views.
To dogmatically reject embryonic stem cells on the grounds of "murder", and yet to either support or remain neutral on IVF is base hypocracy and devalues their arguments.
However giving the same "rights" to a lab-created zygote of 150 cells as to a live human is a matter of belief, not fact.
You continue
" there are some very good arguments against this sort of medical research, which entails the murder of innocent human beings."
Murder of innocent human beings ..... again, your OPINION that a 150 cell zygote (a blob) should have the same rights as a live human is just that - an opinion.
If you feel this strongly please feel free to refuse any future treatment based on research on embryonic stem cells ..... but do not try to stop others attempting to cure some of the terrible ills that afflict people.
A QUESTION FOR YOU
Do you actively oppose IVF treatment?
Please answer truthfully, it's a very simple question.
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105.David_Cunard wrote:
"evangelism and born again movements are becoming increasingly popular, with 44 per cent of America's 77 million Christian adults professing to being "born again" or evangelical. The latter would appear to negate Justin's claim of "the strange death of socially conservative America."
David - interesting article, thanks.
So atheism is on the rise - maybe because it is becoming less "unacceptable" to not believe.
Evangelical / born again Chrisitanity is also on the rise.
So the USA is polarising - the waverers are actually making a decision.
Many of the Chrisitans are becoming more extreme / fundamentlist.
Certainly socially conservative America is not on the wane, just entrenching itself.
Question
If 44% of the 76% of Christians describe themselves as born again / evangelical, that means 38% of Americans claim a strong belief and following of Christ's teachings.
If all these people tithed 10% to charity, and followed "what would Jesus do?" then why is there so much opposition to free universal healthcare and decent education for all?
Discuss.
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ref #108 I said fast track not fast construction.
If France which has a more heavily concentrated population can do it so can the U.S.
I just don't want every 2 bit environmental nut group to have a veto.
Right now selfish interest groups like the Kennedy family stop renewable energy projects off the Mass Coast
Nuclear power and drilling are scintifcly safe, that was my Obama respecting science point.
It should just apllie to stem cell research.
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In my opinion faith, society, science or politics should have its own way of go independently without any interference except caring about the moral effect of the each.
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This tells me of the materialistic attitude of the decision makers - they will do anything for money and their selfishness to live even by killing innocent human life means.
Just because transplant is possible we don't kill one human being and use his organs to save many people. Who knows - these policy murderers will do that as well one day.
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123. At 09:18am on 10 Mar 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
r
Nuclear power and drilling are scintifcly safe, that was my Obama respecting science point.
Usual ridiculous half understood point
Nuclear power and drilling for oil are not scientifically safe as and of themselves
It depends what Nuclear technology is used and crucially where the stations are cited.
It is always interesting to see how many of the nuclear nutters do not live close to the power stations they so adore.
Like it or not the vast majorityof people would not care to have a nuclear power station in their backyard. Why is this if it is so safe?
Ditto drilling whihc can be disastorous in the wrong context and environment.
And environmental science is a science like nuclear science.
Just because you don't like it does not mean it does not exist.
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125. At 10:05am on 10 Mar 2009, EnochJoshua wrote:
This tells me of the materialistic attitude of the decision makers - they will do anything for money and their selfishness to live even by killing innocent human life means.
Just because transplant is possible we don't kill one human being and use his organs to save many people. Who knows - these policy murderers will do that as well one day."
Well let's hope you are not one of those people who needs one of those organs eh?
Let's hope you don't have to tell your son/daughter they are going to die because you do not want him to have a transplant.
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125. EnochJoshua wrote:
"This tells me of the materialistic attitude of the decision makers - they will do anything for money and their selfishness to live even by killing innocent human life means."
You have just described the Bush adminstration admirably. Or have you been away for 8 years .... an extended tour of the subcontinent perhaps!!!!
_________________________
"Just because transplant is possible we don't kill one human being and use his organs to save many people. Who knows - these policy murderers will do that as well one day."
You are clearly deluded and if you consider this to be a logical argument you have my deepest sympathy.
One flew over the Cuckoos Nest, rather than Blues Brothers perhaps.
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Re: Nuclear Energy
I don't understand why this is back in vogue, even some 'environmentalists' talk up Nuclear energy saying it's now safe and less polluting then others. All this is bull! Nothing has changed from the original criticisms against nuclear power. In fact, if it has changed, its that new stations have waste that is now more toxic than previous.
It still takes no less then 250,000 years for this radioactive waste to be 'safe', uranium still has to be mined and is of limited resource, there is still talk of cancer clusters around some nuclear power stations, and is not cost efficient.
Instead of trying to replace our energy sources and maintain current unsustainable levels we should change our energy usage so we can live on renewable energy. So we can live on Earth's income and not her capital.
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I have a 10 year old grandson with bad excema. (he's had it badly since he was about 4 years old). I would not be happy with a 'foetus stem cell' answer to his problem.
A foetus is a product of human life no matter how you look at it. Nazi doctors experimented in awful ways on human patients, without their consent. Where is the difference? Or have we alll become so selfish that our own 'end' is more important than 'another's', and in this case, the 'others' are innocent. What type of 'faith' is that?
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130. At 11:08am on 10 Mar 2009, eatdaisies wrote:
I have a 10 year old grandson with bad excema. (he's had it badly since he was about 4 years old). I would not be happy with a 'foetus stem cell' answer to his problem.
A foetus is a product of human life no matter how you look at it. Nazi doctors experimented in awful ways on human patients, without their consent. Where is the difference? Or have we alll become so selfish that our own 'end' is more important than 'another's', and in this case, the 'others' are innocent. What type of 'faith' is that?"
Hmmm but you are quite happy for your grandson to pay for your principles with disfiguring discomfort?
What degree of selfishness is this?
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In North Dakota they wish to pass a law declaring a fertilised egg as a person. This would outlaw abortion, of course, but would also lead to some strange things such as making it illegal for a pregnant woman to ride a bike!
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re. 123. MagicKirin:
"ref #108 I said fast track not fast construction."
No, if you go back and look at your post 99, you said fast construction. You may have meant fast track, but you wrote fast construction.
I think there was a lot of opposition from the affluent occupants of Martha's Vineyard against the wind turbine project in Nantucket Sound, but I never heard that the Kennedys stopped that project. And I agree that people who want renewable power sources should be willing to look at wind turbines, especially if they are miles offshort.
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In regards to nuclear power:
I have a fishing spot that is within sight of a reactor, and when that siren goes off (they test it once in a while) I freak. I'd fish somewhere else, but it's a good fishin' hole and if that baby blows, well,I'd like to be doing something I enjoy.
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ref #126
I am not denying environmental science, I am denying a platform to those who don't know the subject.
Like Al Gore who invented the web.
Nuclear and drilling is safe. You are quick to criticize the U.S when it deviates from the rest of the world but in this case the rest of the industrial world is going ahead.
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It is hopeful that faith would compromise with science as much possible for the things it produces which make life more comfortable than harmful except those which are considered as quite immoral for human society.
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# 38 bere 54
"...people who happen to be good friends with my landlords and gave me and my cat an excellent reference"
I love the idea of a reference for a cat
"I have known Tiddles for several years; she is a feline of the highest moral character...."
;-)
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#94 Ms Marbles
First I would have to question why I wanted to go out alone into the wilderness with a gun in the first place . . . . ;-)
If I'm bored shooting carrots may be fun (if they have carrots in the wilderness).
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ref #133
Ted Kennedy and his family were the main political force blocking Cape Wind.
If you googled Cape Wind you will find several references.
Their view and their crony Bunny Mellon was more important than the people of Mass.
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Didn't the Nazi's do inhuman research on unwilling participants during WW2?
Where is the difference between that, and using embryo's today. Are embryos the result of human procreation or are they not?
How many women have had the experience of the movement of life in the womb within a few weeks of conception? How much research has gone into that? If embryos grow into people (i.e. are not 'blobs'), then where is the legislation that protects their rights?
Certainly not in the house of science. Faith does not come into this, except faith to believe that somehow God puts a stop to such inhuman behaviour.
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Comment 131 by Simon21.
You assume too much. You assume you know what steps have been taken to assist this child. In fact, you don't.
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138. dceilar:
"If I'm bored shooting carrots may be fun (if they have carrots in the wilderness)."
Yup, there are wild carrots. Most people know them as Queen Anne's Lace. Carrots are biennials. You get the root the first year. If you let them winter over in your garden, you would get a Queen Anne's lace flower the second year.
But strictly speaking, they are an introduced invasive species, not native to North America. Along with dandelions.
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137, john: "I have known Tiddles for several years; she is a feline of the highest moral character...."
His name is Evil Donald, and my landlords agree with me that his moral character is much greater than that of the human who lives downstairs and drives everyone crazy. They can't get evict her because the state has very strict laws against evicting someone just because everyone hates her.
Why is it that when someone wants to describe a "loose" woman, they say she has the "morals of a cat"? This is so unfair to cats.
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re. 139. MagicKirin:
"Ted Kennedy and his family were the main political force blocking Cape Wind."
The facts are a little more complicated. Kennedy tried to stall the project (which I agree is disgraceful), but the final environmental impact statement has been issued and the project is expected to be completed in 2010. A large part of the delay came from a change in the law that moved environmental evaluation of such projects from the Army Corp of Engineers to the Department of the Interior.
And it wasn't just the Kennedys. There was opposition from commercial fishermen (not exactly a social or economic elite) who fish the area where the wind farm will be installed. They will be shut out of the area and will need to fish further out in the ocean. And there was concern that the wind farm was too close to shipping lanes. So there were legitimate concerns.
The Lake Erie shore in Ohio, by the way, has been suggested as one of the best areas in the country for wind farms. There is a major bird migration route through that area, so some things need to be worked out. But Ohio could sure use the jobs and the electricity.
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#142 Tim,
Can't help but point out that I, too, am an introduced invasive species, not native to North America. Fortunately, I like dandelions, so while some might consider me a weed, I still like myself.
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69 GnR I can think of one instance where they have taken that approach, and to dismal effect.
drugs.
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Glad to say I did hear one comment about how stem cell research is being used to grow parts so we will not have to grow them on genetically modified pigs.
theres a plus.
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74 lol you are funny(yes condescending isn't it)
"If you think creating 5,000 extra taxpayer funded jobs will lift the US economy up by its bootstraps there's no conceivable reason why they need to be in stem cell research. They could just as well be taxpayer funded jobs for creationist teachers. Or perhaps for journalists at taxpayer funded media outlets."
but spending it on stem cell researchers might CREATE some benefit in the future.
Spending it on teachers who force Cretinism on people would not really have a great chance of making money in the future(TV Evangelicals do not Create wealth, they take it.)
But it seems sometimes too difficult for Creationists to understand Creating.
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143 All Hail Evil Donald,
Ok formalities over (I understand they require this of us Minions)
Bere I could send some special product over to encourage the neighbour out.
(I also have "just for cats" in the big bottle)
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~142 Tim
Interesting info re: wild carrots (though not native). I have been informed that British original carrots were not orange but brown! The orange variety were introduced by the Dutch in the 17th century. I'm not 100% convinced but I'll keep an open mind.
I've been relatively successful in growing the Dutch kind over here in the UK. The main problem being carrot fly. My top tips are growing them in pots that are taller than a foot or two; or plant them in late June.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
138, dceiler.
It is only in a society of abundance that we can choose to buy new torn jeans and give up meat. In survival mode neither would be fashionable.
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143, bere.
"Why is it that when someone wants to describe a 'loose' woman, they say she has the 'morals of a cat'?"
Justly earned I think. We also have the expression "alley-catting around." Every cat I have ever had has had loose morals. Maybe that is because I have never been unkind enough to neuter them. So they yowl a lot (and keep the neighborhood free of rats and mice).
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My first response is a sense of relief: Firstly because of the possibilities for new discoveries to help those in need. Secondly because the particular brand of narrow minded parochialism associated with the ban on Federal funds for stem cell research is in remission.
My second response is one of concern. I have difficulty looking upon the blastocyst as merely "stuff," the unwanted refuse of in vitro fertilization attempts. What is useful is implanted, what is "waste" is either disposed of or, more rationally, put to use in further research. It seems an overly technical process, one that bypasses human consent and intentionality.
I have been thinking about how to overcome my concern, and have come up with what may seem a provocative alternative: I'd feel less concern if, instead of simply "harvesting" the unwanted blastocysts, people undergoing in vitro were asked to make an informed donation of the "extras" for the purposes of research.
Moreover, I would see extending this to using zygotes and sperm donated specifically for the purposes of being fertilized for research. In both cases the resulting blastocysts would then be freely given gifts.
By choosing to create the blastocysts, the purely technical process is supplanted by an ethical decision to freely give. A freely given gift is a far better thing than an industrial mistake.
And yes, I'd be happy to see some of my own sperm put to good use.
Yours,
Pinko
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152, allmymarbles -
In hard times, those who do not or are unable to hunt (city dwellers, among others) have given up meat, and will continue to do so, through necessity and not to be fashionable. As for torn jeans, anybody who pays good money for something like that has too much money and ought to give it to me.
I've never met anyone who gave up meat in order to be fashionable. I didn't even know this was supposed to be fashionable. I do know people who don't eat it because they cannot digest it well. Perhaps evolution is slowly doing away with our omnivore status.
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re: me, 154 mea culpa . . . I said zygote, when I should've said ovum. I think. I will be asleep by the time the post clears.
Yawn,
Pinko
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re. 145. MinnesotaTim:
"I, too, am an introduced invasive species, not native to North America..."
As am I, friend, as am I. But at least my family hasn't bred as wildly as purple loosestrife. Don't get me started on what purple loosestrife has done in the marshlands around my part of the country.
150. dceilar:
After I learned about the parentage of Queen Anne's Lace, I dug a few up to see if there were carrot-like roots. Yes, and they are brown. But they definitely have an intense carrot aroma. I haven't tried eating them to see what they taste like, since most of those at roadsides have probably been sprayed with herbicides, which collect in roots. And, if they are producing flowers, they are probably past their prime as root vegetables.
My top tips for carrots is to grow the miniature kinds. The soil here is too heavy for the big Nantes types. But I have no problems with carrot fly. Nematodes, yes.
I didn't know that orange carrots were originally Dutch. Frankly, brown carrots would be preferable to the bright orange ones in the markets. They have always looked to me like they were dyed. Maybe we should start a breeding program for brown carrots. We could call them "artisanal."
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re 154 chronophobe,
My understanding is that any blastocysts to be used for research are freely donated. When there are more eggs made than used the parents? patients? are given the choice to freeze, donate or discard as they see fit.
No eggs would be used that were not specifically donated.
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Justin Webb:
You wrote: "the strange death of socially conservative America, which began in the mid-terms in 2006, continues apace."
Justin,
I consider myself a moderate and vote accordingly, as an independent. I can tell you this though: If most Americans knew, in advance, that Obama was going to lift the ban on funds for stem cell research and the more evil abortion, I guarantee he never would have gotten into office. Most Americans were outraged over the abortion issue. I was one of them. He lied to everyone. He specifically said during one of his debates that he didn't aprove of abortion. I wish him luck getting back into office for another term. He will need it.
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82 timohio
Sympathies from a kindred allergetic... Point of order, however. Allergies are a reaction of our own over-sensitive immune systems to the proteins in the kitty's microscopic skin flakes (dander) and saliva, etc.
The critters that consume animal and human dander are dust mites, and are not closely related at all to the outdoor kinds. They aren't carried on pets or people but generally live in carpeting, bedding, and so on. Outdoor pets don't pick up more of them than indoor ones. So this is a completely different allergy- we're allergic to the dessicated little mite carcasses.
And yes, you can outgrow allergies. Or, like my mother, develop them years after childhood.
With a dog and (somehow) three cats and strong allergies to all of them, I had to learn fast.
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154 bere
While some people might have problems with digesting meat, on the whole it is far simpler for the stomach to process, and is generally ounce for ounce higher in proteins- which is why it is so highly prized... carbohydrates are likewise essential, but easier to come by, and take much more digestive effort.
We're hard-wired by evolution to crave meat, because it wasn't always easy to come by. Just like sweets- that fruit only comes in season once in a while, so better eat our fill now, and dry some to save for later...
I suspect that another reason we're prone to health problems is that we're designed for binge eating- we never knew when the next meal would come, so we had to eat our fill when we got it.
Now that we're quite conscious of the whole food chain thing, I think it's logical to look beyond meat. The health costs are just half of it; raising beef and other livestock in the vast quantities we do has a terrible environmental price. And feed for livestock takes away valuable arable land that could feed people (I vaguely recall that one cow needs enough land to support it as would support something like 4-5 people...)
I'll be the first to admit to craving a really good burger, but we are trying to cut back.
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155, bere.
Vegitarianism in America is a relatively recent phenomenon. Evolution cannot bring about such a dramatic change in mere decades. It should be mentioned that if one does not eat a particular food, the body can lose the ability to digest it. So it is a question of which came first - the desire to become a vegitarian or the inability to consume meat.
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157 timohio
Queen Anne's lace roots are only edible when young. They get very, very tough and woody if they age too much.
Beware sampling it unless you know exactly which plant you've in hand, because the native Water Hemlock is a lookalike, and bears that name for a very, very good reason...
For a safer bet, try young dandelion leaves. That's how they got to the U.S.- Italian immigrants brought them with them for their salad gardens, and things got just a bit out of hand.
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timohio
Forgot, they already have varieties of carrots in purple, white, and red. Try seed catalogs like Territorial Seed Co. or Seeds of Change.
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I had scottish relatives come over to visit in Canada several months ago. They were stunned at what is really going on with America and the way things are here.
Yes there are many ramifications over stem cell research. HOWEVER! None of it means anything to America.
Obama is only different from bush by way of Bush came right out and said this is what I am doing. Obama is saying nice doggy while he finds the stick.
America is now having tiffs with China, Russia and Obama is sending lots more troops into the wars. this stuff is all hidden behind helping the economy while promoting "by American" and so on.
Like everything else America does don't be fooled because you will see their results in the war. He authorized stem cell research for eugenics and his popularity only.
My visitors showed me the websites you see over there and I showed them the ones from over here. They were shocked by the huge difference in the news. Look at Canadian or American news sites that have nothing to do with Europe and you will be saying the same as me.
I love the European people I am of European decent and I don't like what America is pulling on Brittan at all
The debate over the stem cell research is a biggy if that is what it was for. Unfortunately it won't be.
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#159 cadrolls1,
During the election Obama did state that he supported stem cell research. In fact Obama co-sponsored the Stem Cell Research Enhancement Act of 2007. He did not lie. He said what he would do and now he has done it. Imagine, a politician who does what he said he would. Amazing.
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Ref 152 allmymarbles
It is surprising what one will eat in survival mode. Ants tickle when they go down. Crickets are quite tasty. Earthworms slip down rather easy. (Remember to strip out the earth from them first) Crayfish are good either raw or cooked.
Animal protein becomes vital. Vegetation does not provide the amount of energy one needs to perform strenuous tasks. Protein is the source of energy that gives one the ability to gather firewood, build shelter, walk distances.
But I will say that young, tender, dandilion greens are like a tonic in the spring. Only a couple more weeks until they will be up and ready for salads and steaming here in Michigan. YUM!
You can eat them as they get older if you boil them in 2-3 changes of water to take out the bitterness. The blossoms are real good this way.
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Hello ya'll, sorry to be absent for the past months, back to "work" with new employment and all, been monoriting 'the site' known as Justins Webb since the elections and I must say the change of people and seeing the regulars like Ed and Simon are refreshing,... and give me reason to read a few of the posts.
Honestly, I haven't read many of these recently and would like to just say I don't get the fevor over the stem cell research,.. it was just the federal money that was in quesion, privately research has been going on.... this is just more retorick(?) and Bull that this admin is becoming famous for,...
P.B.Obama,.. a puppeteers prize,.. "the real question" is who is the puppeteer. And I thoutgh GW was bought and over paid for.
(now living in 'MY' town,... or at least where I work, though I did vote for him,...) I digress, through the list of puppets and puppeteers run old names like Rockefeller and Hunt, places like Saudi Arabia and Dubai,.. the real question is which is which?
Consortium,.. I fear that word for with it come anominity, and no knowing the who to what.
But twenty five DVD's,.. I am so embarrased.... I thought him sending back the bust of Churchill,..worthy of the Smithsonian Institiute was a slap and sign of Presidential idiot-acy,... and a sign of his inability / INEXPERIENCE / incapability,.. please know we Americans as a whole love England, Europe and all our ansestors, future and present friends there,.. and I mean that. I would in a heart beat sign up to fight your fight with you,.. whom ever thinks or thought we wouldn't is "Stupid".
God bless us, for the future is yet to be written and I fear tyhe worst is yet to come, as the incremental destruction of freedoms and the economy to protect them is slowly eroded.
Shalom ed,.. the difference is in:
just speeches, just words
or
...just friends,.. just family
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167, publius.
Yes, this is the point I have been trying to get across.
Vegitarianism suggests an intellectual over-refinement, a denial of our animal nature. As for buying torn jeans that is just plain decadent. Thank you for the tips on dandelion greens. We have plenty of those because I am a lazy gardener.
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108, Doug.
Welcome back. It is nice to have some around to disagree with who is not mad as a hatter (e.g, staphylococcus aureus and ubermensch).
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Ref 169 allmymarbles
It is all in your perspective. You may well have a splendid salad garden that needs very little tending.
Let me give you some really worthwhile stem research.
Pull up the young dandilions; cut off the taproot near the base, discard taproot. Wash the leaves; place in boiling water until tender; drain; dribble with olive oil and vinegar; serve.
A great source of vitamin C and other good things. A great boon to health without the multi-million dollar price tag. (No zygots were harmed in this experiment)
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
121 RomeStu
“However giving the same "rights" to a lab-created zygote of 150 cells as to a live human is a matter of belief, not fact.”
I have good evidence that the solar system is heliocentric, and I believe it as well. All knowledge is a matter of belief, but the point is whether or not you have substantial justification for that belief. It doesn’t matter that you tack on the convenient use of rhetoric about my idea being un-factual, but it is, perhaps, more telling that you offer not one shred of evidence for your claim. You assert the antipode to my commentary, which doesn’t in anyway address the issue. My own assertion wasn’t about making a claim to prove. It was merely to draw attention to the fact that the opposition to stem cell research is widely dismissed as fanatical babble, and that their position is thought untenable, not because of the facts, but because of those who hold that belief. If the only “good” argument against stem cell research stems from the evangelical movement, I believe you missed the boat on those who could actually challenge the belief of an entrenched material philosophy masquerading as scientific fact. I wonder if all the sources you have looked at agree as to whether or not an embryo or zygote, or fertilized egg has moral standing. The facts cannot really change in this case; only the answer to the metaphysical question, of whether or not, humans in early development are deserving of protection. I had not heard that there is a consensus among scientists that incontrovertibly proves the moral stance on a zygote. I am glad that I have an active opposition to challenge my own beliefs. Let us continue to keep this dialogue an open and honest intellectual discourse.
In answer to your concluding question: I have not made as active an inquiry into in vitro fertilization to make a conclusive statement regarding the morality of it.
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171, publius.
"Pull up the young dandilions; cut off the taproot near the base, discard taproot. Wash the leaves; place in boiling water until tender; drain; dribble with olive oil and vinegar; serve."
Sounds good - and cheap. Also the soil around here is uncontaminated by pesticides. A few years ago I warned my neighbors about the dangers and everyone stopped using them.
My garden is a planned jungle. Everything billows and overflows. One year I wanted enough blue morning glories to do some good. So I set up poles along the back and looped thin rope from top to top. I ran the vines up the poles and they scrambled everywhere, even beyond the ropes. That was a year to remember. The neighbors gaped. I gaped. They were gorgeous. To hell with tidy lawns.
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173 jhnewman
If you read my posts you will se I am all for "an open and honest intellectual discourse", as you put it.
However I do see that there can be a non-religious argument against embryonic stem cell research.
This is an area of uncertainty, however if we never did anything because we were uncertain, nothing would ever get done.
I personnally, as have many scientists, have rationalised the possible problems with this research, against the potential for good.
My main issue with your post 120 (which I answered in 121) were with the provokative language often used by the religious right in their opposition to the research.
I quote you
"there are some very good arguments against this sort of medical research, which entails the murder of innocent human beings."
Innocent human beings ..... you say "I had not heard that there is a consensus among scientists that incontrovertibly proves the moral stance on a zygote."
I agree that there is no consensus on the moral stance of a zygote, but I have rationalised this for what I perceive as the potential for future good.
You have simply used emotive words to convey an impression that this research is murder.
Regarding IVF you say
"I have not made as active an inquiry into in vitro fertilization to make a conclusive statement regarding the morality of it."
Thank you for at least acknowledging the question - none of the other "antis" has done so.
However this is not an answer. It requires little research to discover tht routinely more zygotes than necessary are created, and the rest simply discarded, or given over for research.
Very simple - if embryonic stem cell research is "murder of innocent human beings" then so is IVF (unless you are "octo-mum" and use all your zygotes!!!)
I still await anyone who has the guts to tell all those families who have benefitted from IVF that they are murderers. If we're going to use provocative emotive language, let's at least be consistent.
You end with
"I am glad that I have an active opposition to challenge my own beliefs. Let us continue to keep this dialogue an open and honest intellectual discourse."
Yes lets. It's why we're all here after all.
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JUSTIN
This news is breaking.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20090311/twl-gunman-kills-nine-in-alabama-rampage-41f21e0.html
Justin - perhaps you could get some stats for gun crime in the US by state and als oto compare with other countries.
It's from outside the beltway, and not about stem cells, but it is a big issue and sure to generate some strong views.
I'll start ..... people without guns don't kill (as many) people!
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@176, Stu, more breaking news. American gun law didn't cause this one. Coincidentally, my younger son is off to a talk later today by the parents of Rachel Scott, the first victim of the Columbine massacre.
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177 seanspa
Thank you for posting that link - I'd missed that in my morning trawl of the news.
Obviously my personal views on private gun ownership and its dangers go beyond just the USA, but this is a USA blog.
This massacre will rock Germany, just as the recent school killing in Finland shook them, and as Dunblane did in the UK in '96 (?)
However, it is slightly more frequent in the USA.
I must have a look at Mark Mardell's Euroblog to see what he has to offer.
I'd be interested to hear what Rachel Scott's parents have to say, via your son, via you!
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J H Newman (173),
Tautology?Hi Doug, Welcome back!
All,
Nature is profligate because she knows that not all seeds become mature organisms, but none are wasted....
Peace
ed
Empty yourself of everything.
Let the mind become still.
The ten thousand things rise and fall while the Self watches their return.
They grow and flourish and then return to the source.
Returning to the source is stillness, which is the way of nature.
The way of nature is unchanging.
Knowing constancy is insight.
Not knowing constancy leads to disaster.
Knowing constancy, the mind is open.
With an open mind, you will be openhearted.
Being openhearted, you will act royally.
Being royal, you will attain the divine.
Being divine, you will be at one with the Tao.
Being at one with the Tao is eternal.
And though the body dies, the Tao will never pass away.
Lao Tzu
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159, cad: "He lied to everyone. He specifically said during one of his debates that he didn't aprove of abortion."
No, Obama did not lie. You were not paying attention. He said many times that while he personally does like abortion, it should be safe and legal. At no point did he ever say he would work to ban it. He was also up front about his support for embryonic stem cell research. It's not his fault if you chose to misunderstand him.
And "most" Americans are not "outraged" over the abortion issue. Polls have shown over and over again that most Americans want abortion to continue to be legal.
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173: " . . . as to whether or not an embryo or zygote, or fertilized egg has moral standing."
Please see my post #64 on The Stem Cell Debate thread, regarding moral standing.
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175, RomeStu: "I agree that there is no consensus on the moral stance of a zygote,"
I say to you also: Please see my post #64 on The Stem Cell Debate thread, in regard to what might be thought of as consensus.
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gherkin many would say that you are suffering from the poison they inject on mass to those animals from the feedlots you eat off.
Hence you are stark raving mad.
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Marbles. let off the veggies.
I'm not one but really, we are omnivores.
Not pure meat eaters which is common to the stateside diet(sorry forgot spud).
Eating meat is killing something(and maybe yourself), let US all just face that without saying "Your killing as well to a vegetarian " .
When has your veg looked at you with that "XXX! You are going to EAT ME?" look.
Modern farming kills millions of souls in one fell swoop regularly.
That is the use of pesticide.
Much of which is used to grow veggies(not to mention farming methods , the plough and the combine.)
There may also be serious problems facing humanity because of the oestrogen mimicking effect of Soy.
But either way I respect the multi denominational rights Veggies more than many modern stances.
We could feed more people with non animal products.
I as Bere I suspect and Tim , are not into eating Cat.
Sorry no convincing me.
Every cow is sacred
Every cow is great
If a cow gets wasted
God gets quite irate.
This is some peoples deeply held religious belief.
I like knocking nutters not belief.
On the pet monkey.
that is why parents often call their kid "little monkey"
Monkeys do seem to be like border collies way too smart.
Well compared to gherkins which i s one veggie I would never go near.
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Tim on the cat rex champions are the place to go.
I understand nursing cats. and my heart goes out to you.
On allergies I heard something a while back about allergies appearing and leaving in seven year cycles.
Just that if you are 21 expect new allergies and some to leave.
Voodoo stuff ,it sounded like, I filed it under CURIOUS.
And even in my memory challenged head it stuck;)
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bere that medical history does seem strange.
and unfortunate. I hope you are doing well.
Is there a possibility of product poisoning?
Pollution or other environmental possibilities?
Good health to you.
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91. At 10:16pm on 09 Mar 2009, michaeld99 wrote:
Why is there such a focus on embryonic stem cells?
Only recently it was reported that skin cells could be used with the same effect.
There is something wrong with a society that consumes it's own young!
------------------------------------------
Your reporter was wrong. They could be even better, sometime in the future when the research goes further. But not at the moment.
We could run the world off solar and wind but we use what is there at the moment.
Interesting that.
that brings me to "eating you young",very "small mammal" that.
But "Eating"?
Killing if that is your belief , but no one is snaking on these.
there will not be a vending machine full of peoples unwanted fertility waste.
It would be a biohazard.(though I suppose if cooked..)
So Killing ,I'll accept that argument.
So as to killing wiping out all the shell fish in the ocean because of acidification (todays story), destroying fish stocks, wiping out the lungs of the planet,
all these things are things that will be killing our kids.
We are one of the first generations to be able to say not only did we leave or kids less money less prospects we also left them with out food.
the world devastating plague that WILL happen because of our stupid farming and life styles (and Yes America that is YOU.TO this date one of the most consumptive states every created) will kill kids.
We are eating their futures.
Cells do deteriorate when frozen ,over time.
bottom half of 42
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130 have you asked your grandson what HE thinks?
Without giving him a guilt complex.
ah he's only 3, but you are willing to make that tough decision for him eh?
I understand ,but will he?
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130 on the help side try oatmeal. I hear it has helped. a poultice in the bath tub when the bath is poured.
(organic of course)
There may be ways to help out there without mojo voodoo science
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I find it interesting that people tend to get so het up over the vegetarianism vs. meat-eating issue. It's almost as polarizing as evolution vs. creation.
While my choice not to eat meat is due to the gross factor rather than any ideological stance, I still find myself the victim of ridicule or vehement arguments by those trying to convert me. And I know the reverse happens to meat-eaters.
I would never dream of trying to convince anyone not to eat meat. When my kids still lived at home, they were free to eat meat, and did, anywhere but in our home. They still eat meat, and the only concern I have about it is that now that they have a "family history" (me) of colon cancer, I would prefer they lessen their chances of contracting it by not over-indulging in meat, since so many of the "experts" seem to think meat is a factor in that disease.
We were in the UK during the mad cow scare, and I distinctly remember seeing signs in the windows of MacDonald's advertising "Little Lambie McSpicey" burgers. My children insist these signs said something less disturbing, like "Lamb McSpicey." Well, they may be correct (it's two against one, after all), and I don't care what's advertised as long as I don't have to eat it.
Scott Nearing, famous original hippie, lived on practically nothing but uncooked oatmeal for years and lived to a spry (and hardworking) 94 and then got killed by a car. I ran five to six miles a day on a vegetarian diet for years. So I'm not sure everyone really needs the animal protein in order to be strong and healthy.
And as for animal instincts, thank goodness some of those have been refined over the centuries.
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134lol. Don't eat them fish
one of the best Kite buggy site in the UK
was Dungeness Sands. With the nice reactor along side.
The lake district has a huge reprocessing plant called wildscale . no strike that they changed it after an accident Sellafield or something(now that you can sell any fields near the place.
Thankfully (for them) Chernobyl blew some stuff up north so now all windscales past mistakes(loads) are blamed on that .
But the lake district is a top place to visit and Morcambe Bay is great,
and you don't need to take a flash light with you at night;)
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"Let's hope you don't have to tell your son/daughter they are going to die because you do not want him to have a transplant."
But are we pandering.
at what stage is it legitimate to say enough with the frankenstien stuff.
the religious or otherwise scientifically wary folk out there have a point.
look we argue about nukes,,yet they were allowed because we all were told what this new science can do for us.
People took radiation baths.
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all those families who have benefitted from IVF that they are murderers
There I'll say it, and because this is a debate join to that that medical research is leading to the strangest idea's of what is natural and what is not natural.
We will end up with people that don't die and then start bitching when people say Hey can you help us.
The hugely disproportionate number of oldies in the US to youth (as europe) is down to the advances of science.
everything from the blacksmith on should be banned.
;)
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# 179 Ed Iglehart wrote:
"Nature is profligate...."
With 30 postings on this topic, including 7 in c 1 hour - so is happylaze.....
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182 bere54 wrote:
175, RomeStu: "I agree that there is no consensus on the moral stance of a zygote,"
I say to you also: Please see my post #64 on The Stem Cell Debate thread, in regard to what might be thought of as consensus.
Bere54 - I value your sharing of a personal sadness to make a very telling point.
My interpretation of the word "consensus" was meaning in general, rather than in law.
You show unarguably with your example that the law simply does not consider a 6 week old foetus to have the rights of a human being. QED. Where now is the debate.
I wish I had your way with words.
However you may inadvertently create a monster .... a lobby group union of undertakers and the religious right. There's money to be made if every zygote were to get a full funeral! Undertakers will be donating to Palin right now.
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Ref 187 Bere54
Bere,
I hope you do not think I was quibbling with you over being a vegetarian. I was only pointing out that meat protien is quite often more efficient energy in a survival mode.
My dearest friend is vegetarian. We never try to convert each other. When going out to diner, or planning a party I always make certain the menu includes plenty of items she, and any other vegetarian, will enjoy.
In a survival setting; cattails, water-cress, wild leeks, fruits and berries, etc. are often well scattered in a forest. It takes time and energy to forage for these foods. They provide the greater portion of a survival diet if you know what plants are edible. But it is usual that you are quickly burning the energy gained as you go from one source to another. One needs to be constantly grazing. Meat protien stays with you longer leaving more time to build shelters or travel longer distances between foragings.
There is nothing like waking up to find a fish on a line or in a weir; or a rabbit caught in a snare you set the night before so you have a ready meal to start the day.
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183, happy -
Nasty tumor removed ten years ago, surgery only. Been fine ever since, thanks. It was probably due to ingesting pesticides for years.
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192, RomeStu: "However you may inadvertently create a monster .... a lobby group union of undertakers and the religious right. There's money to be made if every zygote were to get a full funeral! Undertakers will be donating to Palin right now."
Oh dear. I hadn't thought of that. I wonder if there's any way to erase that post? (Don't tell any funeral directors about it!)
I know you weren't actually referring to the law, but neither did I mean specifically the law either. I feel it is also a general consensus since there is no social pressure for funeral rites for a foetus and I have never heard of anyone doing this, at least not for an early miscarriage. I do know there are support groups now for women to get together and mourn their miscarried foetuses, but then there are support groups for every wacko thing under the sun now.
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We are just talking about a few as yet undifferentiated cells. What is all the fuss about?
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#178, RomeStu, the youngster has returned home and has the following to report.
Rachel Scott's parents were not present, but a survivor of the massacre was there and talked through what happened. She was shot in the Library but somehow survived. Apparently there was not a dry eye in the house (I have to say that re-reading what happened yesterday had the same effect on me).
The message was one that poor Rachel Scott apparently preached before her death - don't prejudge and don't even judge based upon first impressions (allow people to have a bad day). More information on the program is [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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re. 187. bere54:
I've found with my son and his friends that vegetarianism is no big deal. Some do, some don't, and everyone makes allowances. So perhaps the vegetarianism vs. meat-eating issue is just a hot button with older people.
As part of an effort to control cholesterol without drugs, I was advised by my doctor to start incorporating vegetarian meals into my weekly diet. Basically, it's no big deal, except for the reaction I have to legumes. Too bad, I really like lentils.
I've also found that switching to a vegetarian menu works best when you follow ethnic cuisines that are traditionally vegetarian. Falafel is much better than textured vegetable protein burgers, for example, and tofu is best in a stir fry, not as fake cheese.
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198, timohio.
A lop-sided diet is obviously unhealthy. In this country there is an inordinate emphasis on meat. This may be because of ease of preparation, both at home and in fast-food restaurants. Vegetables take more time and preparation but have a greater variety of taste and texture.
I grew up in a family that relied heavily on vegetables, salads and fruit. We had meat, of course, but not great big bloody slabs, and never without the accompaniment of greens, etc. We also ate a lot of fish. Alas, because of my liking for fish I developed mercury poisoning and had to undergo chelation. There is not an awful lot of anything that is not contaminated one way or another.
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Bere54:
Never, never, never did Obama indicate in any way, shape or form, during the debates that he would overturn what Bush had done in regards to the (non-)funding of abortion.
Furthermore: Anyone thinking of getting an abortion should check out the movie: The Silent Scream. The woman who filmed it was pro-choice until she actually saw what happened during an abortion. She is not pro-choice anymore. She will not even talk about what she saw that day when she filmed it.
What DID she see? She saw (Through Ultra Sound) the unborn baby try to desperately move away from the tool of death being used by the Doctor. She saw it fight for its life while still in the womb. She saw it move its tiny arms and its tiny legs whenever the doctor came too close to it. Yes, it was aware. When the Doctor (Murderer) did finally get the baby by the legs, she saw the baby open its little mouth and yell. There was no one there to hear it scream though because it was still inside its Mother, who was having it murdered. That is why the movie is called : The "Silent" Scream.
I find it sad to think there are people out there who speak out on: eating meat, trapping animals for fur, raising cattle for veal, Susan Smith and Andrea Yates YET, they seem to be silent on abortion. Where is the logic?
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#198 Tim
I've also found that switching to a vegetarian menu works best when you follow ethnic cuisines that are traditionally vegetarian.
That's the conclusion that I have also came to, but they don't have to be vegetarian cultures as such IMO - just that meat is (or was) scarce in their country so they have many types of vegetarian dishes. I recommend Italian food myself.
#187 Bere
Re: Protein
I've heard many arguments about vegetarian food not having enough of the nutrients found in meat and fish. Mushrooms and beans are rich in protein, not to mention dairy products. In fact our diets, so I'm told, are too rich in protein anyway. Iron is found in green leaf vegetables and cereals, and B vitamins in yeast extract. Even Omega 6 essential oils can be found in some seed oils - cod liver oil is horrible anyway.
A friend of mine's grandfather died aged 85 and he was a veggie all his life. At his wake many people said he would have lived longer if ate meat!!
But, like you, I can't see the point in trying to convert others - just like I don't want others to try to convert me.
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How to get balanced protein in a vegetarian diet: Diet for a Small Planet
Meanwhile I continue on my seefood diet; If I see it , I eat it.;-)
ed
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200, cad -
Strange. Throughout the campaign I knew exactly where Obama stood on the abortion issue and so am not the least surprised by his actions. The debates were only one tiny part of the campaign. But for you and your ilk I guess it's easier not to pay attention and then claim he lied, or said nothing. If that is really the case, does this mean that I and millions of others are telepathic, since we knew what he was thinking?
The rest of what you write is pure fundamentalist brainwashing propaganda. I mentioned somewhere on another thread, or maybe it was even this one, that I once had a friend who claimed she could hear vegetables scream when she cut into them. I suppose if you knew enough about film techniques and computer generation you could make a film "proving" vegetables pull out their roots and play basketball in the middle of the night. The whole point of film propaganda is to brainwash the masses. That's why it was invented. And you of course are the proof that it quite often works.
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200
So do you recommend snuff movies as well?
See I wont spend money on movies where someone dies, so maybe I could watch this. but for you to watch it. That seems perverted.
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On the veggie diet.
I am not a vegetable lover.
Probably a product of gagging on the taste of some ,maybe from school days in the UK.(maybe)
But I wouldn't know that in an Indian restaurant . Even vegans I know maintain health and some believe it or not do smith , which means they burn a hell of a lot in a day and yet still stay healthy.
(Some take the Dublin Iron supplement(Guinness)) but mushrooms and pine nuts.
What's not protein in there.
No veggies harmed, Fruiting bodies, half designed to be eaten anyway.
bit like fertilised eggs.
But yuck, give me a small burger anyday.
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203 Ed
See food diet. I'm the same.
but not from the sea.
The sea is evil and contains only poisonous stuff.
Well known hill mans fact that.
Same with Fishes that swim in from the sea.
Lake and river fish well they're OK
;)
Well now that we have dumped all out old nuke material and way way worse all that sluggy trashy icky stuff with loads of strange heavy metals etc into it.
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dCeiler
"A friend of mine's grandfather died aged 85 and he was a veggie all his life. At his wake many people said he would have lived longer if ate meat!!"
I like that one.
and a quick point on lethargy and diet
(and smoking and lethargy) Look at those people carrying a house worth of possessions around India on their backs.
I suspect some of them folk are veggies.
Just to say we make assumptions about veggies because of our lack of knowledge .
I just prefer Burgers.Years back in time meat was a weekly meal for some.
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A step back to rethink the whole discussion might be helpful.
The problems that are supposed to be cured by stem cell research are a result of lifestyles that have become more and more complex and stressful.
Stem cell research (SCR) or any research for that matter that does not get to the core of the issue is not going to make much of a difference.
In addition to SCR research, to get to that core, research from a social, spiritual and environmental basis should be also undertaken and similarly funded if not more!
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re. 207. happylaze:
"Lake and river fish well they're OK."
You might want to rethink that. Industrial pollution and farm runoff gets into the rivers as well.
There are fish consumption advisories for the Great Lakes. Which is too bad, because Great Lakes salmon is wonderful stuff. So is lake perch and walleye.
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re199. allmymarbles:
Historically, a high meat consumption diet was limited to the wealthy or the nobility. That's because large animals were mostly game found in royal or noble forests, which the lower classes were forbidden to hunt in on penalty of death. What we think of as common meat animals (even chickens) were raised more for their byproducts (milk, wool, eggs) and only eaten when they got too old to produce or were culled when young. A medieval peasant diet was pretty vegetarian, with the occasional rabbit or wild bird.
Even in the US, the obsession with big pieces of beef at every meal is relatively recent--pretty much after the Second World War. I suspect it was part of the surge in consumption with the economic boom that happened at that time. But for baby boomers and younger, that is how they were brought up and that is what they think is normal. No matter that it is harmful to the environment and bad for your health.
Simply decreasing the amount of meat most people eat would be a big improvement.
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208, happy.
The reason some people turn off vegetables is that they don't know how to prepare them. Just boiling in salt in pretty uninteresting, and if there were a law that I had to eat them that way, I would give them up too. Also some vegetables are underused. I don't use mushrooms as a garmish, but as a vegetable serving. No one would ever turn that down. Or how about beets spiced with a ginger sauce?
One of my no nos is is the lettuce salad - the cotton candy of the vegetable world. Who wants to munch away on shredded leavest? If you want lettuce, cut a head in quarters for separate servings andoffer mayonaise or a dressing.
I am an omnivore, but once, for fun, I served 18 vegetables for a large luncheon. They were each prepared in a tasty manner. I never saw such hungry people. Everyone took seconds. No one realized there was no meat. And think how colorful everything looked! That alone increases the appetite.
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211, timohio.
"Simply decreasing the amount of meat most people eat would be a big improvement."
And replace what you take away with vegetables and fruit and you have the old-fashioned, well-balanced diet of our childhood. You would also cut down on obesity (if you kept the portions normal size).
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Bere54:
Since I recorded his debates, I have a reference to go by. All you have are your words that are not backed up with anything. He TOLD people, in his own words that he did not believe in abortion. Also, there are too many Doctors who now agree that the unborn baby feels the pain of its legs and armed being torn away from its body to ignore, or pass them off as liars. Nice try though. Learn to keep your zipper up and you would not have to feel so guilty.
Happylaze:
That is just too stupid to even comment on. That's okay though. I used to experiment with drugs too when I was your age. Thankfully, I stopped. I suggest you do the same.
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re. 212. allmymarbles:
"One of my no nos is is the lettuce salad - the cotton candy of the vegetable world. "
If you're talking about iceberg head lettuce, yes, I agree with you. I can't eat it without severe digestive problems. I think of it at the vegetable that will never die, because it was never alive. I grow an assortment of leaf lettuces in the summer. Much better. Especially if you add arugula.
Another problem with most Americans' perceptions of vegetables is that most of them are stale by the time they hit the stores. Fresh vegetables are almost a different food. Most people have tasted the difference between a fresh garden tomato and one bought in the middle of winter from a supermarket. The same is true of every other vegetable--even the humble potato.
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Comestibles and combustibles are both best when homegrown....
;-)
ed
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214, cadrolls1: You wrote to me: "Learn to keep your zipper up and you would not have to feel so guilty."
Please read my post #64 on The Stem Cell Debate. Not only have you seriously misunderstood Obama but you obviously have made some ludicrous assumptions about me.
There are none so blind as those who pay no attention to anything other than the chatter of their fellow ignoramuses.
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Interesting dietary discussion, so far.
217. Bere - Pay no attention to cadrolls. Not worth your time. Your post at 204 is correct. A person would have had to have been blind, deaf and dumb not to have understood Obama's positions on (a) abortion; (b) religion; and (c) science. Or perhaps in denial to an extent that is, on occasion, probably quite scary to neigbors and co-workers.
200 (and other) Cadrolls:
If you thought that Obama (or McCain for that matter) was going to continue the policies of the Bush administration in these areas, I just don't know what to say. I'd like to give you some kind of comfort, to let in some fresh air, to encourage you to raise your eyes and see a further horizon but I just can't think of how to do it.
The thing is, revelation is personal, and we must each follow our own road to Damascus. If I could figure out how, I would certainly lend you the bus fare.
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214 Cadrolls I am quite ok with my drug taking (pot)
so evangelise to someone else.
you couldn't handle it.
big deal
That's your problem.
SANCTAMONIOUS is what your attitude is.
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#218 Interestedforeigner:
Well, all I can say is this: millions of other Americans were just as surprised when he lifted the ban on funding. He did NOT say that was what he was going to do. Like I said: Good luck for him if he thinks that he will be re-elected.
Bere: I don't need to be told what is right or wrong. If anyone thinks it is okay to murder their own child, I'll feel they are the ones who are wrong and I will think that way until the day I day. The sooner we get laws to ban abortion, jail the women who murder their unborn child, jail the Doctors who do the murdering, and jail the boyfriends, husbands, johns, etc... who know of the murder and do nothing, the world will be a better place for everyone.
It is only a matter of time.
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220,cad: "the world will be a better place for everyone."
No. It might be better for only a few self-righteous, self-chosen, self-congratulatory zealots, but would be much much worse for everyone else. But it's clear that the zealots don't give a damn about anyone else.
Interestedforeigner was right. Not worth the bother.
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221. Cadrolls.
Freedom of Belief is a fundamental founding principle of the United States
Separation of Church and State is also a basic principle in America.
Either you accept this, or you do not.
If you accept that these are the ground rules that are part of democracy in America then the following are also true:
First, Freedom of Belief also means freedom from being required to have any religious beliefs, and the right to be free of having the religious beliefs of others forced upon us.
Freedom of belief is also qualified: The law does not permit Freedom of Belief to be used to allow people to advocate or to commit violence against others.
Second, America was founded by, and is currently still home to, people having a wide range of beliefs.
The corollary that follows from the combination of diversity and Freedom of Belief is that Religious Belief is not an acceptable basis upon which to found public policy. The vast majority of your fellow citizens accept this as given. You clearly do not.
Let me put that somewhat more clearly: Public policy in a democracy cannot be made on the basis of religious belief. It has to be made on the basis of reason that can be challenged by rational discussion in the public forum (i.e., the legislature and in the media).
The commitment to forming public policy on the basis of reason is what the Enlightenment was all about. America's founders were leading lights of that era. That is America's heritage.
If the only reason you favor or oppose this public policy or that public policy is because it reflects your religious beliefs, then there is no rational basis for adopting (or not adopting) the policy in question that you favor.
With respect, we have been through this over and over from top to bottom, and there is no non-religious basis to opposition to the legalization of abortion. None.
There is however, ample evidence that the blanket criminalization of abortion leads to systemic injustice toward, and disproportionate suffering by, women. There is also some evidence that the de-criminalization of abortion in the 1970's has led to a reduction in crime in the US from roughly 1990 onward.
This issue has been a distraction that has consumed far more time, energy and public resources than it can possibly merit, and is one of the reasons America has been poorly served by her elected officials in recent decades.
This is a relatively unimportant issue as compared to the activities that relate to US public finances, and you need to set it aside and get on with issues of vastly greater importance, e.g., how to fund welfare benefits for the tidal wave of unemployed, and how to keep social security from going bankrupt, how to avoid involvement in pointless overseas wars; how to deal with environmental degradation; how to achieve energy security.
The fixation of the religious right on idiotic issues of tertiary importance like abortion has prevented government from dealing with these issues effectively. You are wasting your neighbors' taxes. You are trying your neighbors' patience severely. You are damaging your country.
This behavior needs to stop.
So, you need to make up your mind:
Do you accept the basic principles of American Democracy or not?
At present, you appear not to.
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222, Interested -
Ooooh, that was good!
Too bad it won't make a dent in the thick-headed skulls of those who know they are right because they know they are right because their god told them so. (Repetition deliberate)
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Iterestedforeigner:
In the first place, I'm an Atheist. In the second place, There is NO other American who believes in the Bill of Rights MORE than do I. There was a certain Roger Sherman (Sherman, Connecticut) on my Father's side of the family who helped build the Constitution in the 1700s.
Perhaps you will be so good as to tell me about the hippocratic oath: The original oath read:"I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone."
"I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion."
Even in the updated version: "Never to do deliberate harm to anyone for anyone else's interest."
Oh, and by the way, I lean more towards being a Democrat too. (I'm a moderate and vote Independent). So all of the assumptions are just that: assumptions.
As I have written, there will be a day when abortion is illegal again in the U.S.A. You will see.
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Bere54:
By the way, just so you will know and hopefully too that your children and grandchildren will know, one does NOT have to believe in ANY God to know that murder is wrong. Murder is wrong, is wrong, is wrong and so on. (Repetition deliberate)
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225. Cr
The premise that abortion is murder is a statement of belief, per se, whether you consider yourself to be an atheist or not.
When you try to equate murder and abortion in the facile way you have done, you simply leave the land of the rational.
In study after study, roughly 70 % of people believe that women should have the right to obtain an abortion under most circumstances. This would not be so if it were considered to be equivalent to murder. So clearly that premise cannot be correct.
The only way that abortion is going to be re-criminalized in the US is if it is done against the will of the vast majority of women and a clear majority of men, which would be a far greater wrong in a democracy. If it were ever put to a clear vote, it wouldn't evn be close. The anti-abortionist nut cases would finally have to stick a sock in it. And long past time, too.
I have never understood why anyone would want to presume to tell their neighbor that they should, or should not, choose to obtain an abortion. Would you like you neighbor to stick their nose into your life like that? What conceit. What astonishing arrogance. What possible business could it be of yours?
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#226, Interestedforeigner:
What business is it of mine? Abortion cheapens the very word: LIFE.
That makes it not only my business, but everyone else's business too. Whether the child grows up loved, unloved, drug-dependant because of a crack Mom, poor because of the lack of resources, a product of rape, incest, abuse, or whatever you want to use. Did the child commit the rape, act of incest? The child should have the right to have a chance at life and to make a good shot of it regardless of what kind of handicap it is facing. No one should be able to make that decision for them. It is NOT fair for the child. The child is the main focus here, NOT the woman or her partner who CHOSE to create it. Even if the children are living in the worst impoverished area in the worst part of the world, they have a right to have a chance at life. Children should NOT be killed because of poverty, POVERTY should be killed because of the child. The child should not be killed because of circumstances that created its life's conditions, the CONDITIONS which made it difficult for the child MUST be killed. (Eradicated)
What you are saying is that every child should be able to grow up in a perfect world or be killed. There are people who are born with no arms or legs and lead happy lifes despite their condition. There are people who have extreme mental retardation who laugh at their favorite T.V. shows and love life to the fullest. Because they are not perfect, you think that the Mother should have the right to kill them? If the Mother REALLY wanted the best for her child and the child was different than perfect, then she should let it live a full life in its OWN way. You seem to think that everyone who didn't come from a perfect setting does not want to live and does not have joy throughout their day. Why deny them that? If they were thrown into a garbage can, HOW can they know what life is AT ALL?
It's all about a chance to live. If you can refrain from being disgusted by other people who are less fortunate than yourself, then you would see that they are enjoying themselves despite your feelings of wanting them dead because they are not perfect. They want to live and you want them dead. That IS what it boils down to. You people who are pro-choice think that you have the right to take away the choice of the unborn. What about THEIR choice? Did you ask them how they would feel? Do you even care how they would feel? If you think that every baby born with some kind of limitation should be aborted (Murdered) then how do you explain the millions of people who were also born with the same kinds of limitations and are happy people?
It is good to want to help enrich the lifes of everyone. Not giving people a chance is not helping anyone. It cheapens life for everyone. It cheapens the very word: LIFE.
Therefore, that makes it my business and everyone elses too.
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Cad,
Did you ever grow vegetables? Is thinning out seedlings murder?
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Ed Iglehart:
Is there something wrong about comparing vegetables to humans?
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227. Cr
Please do not presume to tell me, or anybody else, what I am saying, or what they are saying. Your straw man conjectures are nowhere reflected in my comments.
Your rhetoric is over-the-top. Your analysis is painfully juvenile. Your knowledge is embarrassingly thin.
You have a very outsized view of your own rights vis-a-vis your fellow citizens, and one that is not, as far as I can tell, consistent with citizenship in a democracy based on the rule of law.
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#230, Interestedforeigner:
"Please do not presume to tell me, or anybody else, what I am saying, or what they are saying. Your straw man conjectures are nowhere reflected in my comments."
Never did I "presume" anything that you said. I merely responded to what you wrote. Also, I don't know from where you obtained your "70%" figure for those who support abortion, but everyone who I know personally does not believe in it. It is my guess that if the figure is from the Government's polls, then they are probably as made up as most of their other polls are. Polls can and are used to make people believe they are either in the majority or the minority, whenever the Government wants something to suite their cause.
Regardless, since you will never get me to believe that the torture of an unborn baby is good, and since I can't get you to see that it isn't, we will have no choice but to agree to disagree.
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231 cadrolls
"I don't know from where you obtained your "70%" figure for those who support abortion, but everyone who I know personally does not believe in it."
Everyone you know personally - either you are exaggerating, or you need a wider range of friends.
"It is my guess that if the figure is from the Government's polls, then they are probably as made up as most of their other polls are."
The big bad government made it up!
Are you sure you could back up this assertyion, or is it just for use when you have run out of actually arguments for your case?
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cadrolls 227
"The child should have the right to have a chance at life and to make a good shot of it regardless of what kind of handicap it is facing."
The child is not a child until it is born - until then it is a foetus.
"No one should be able to make that decision for them. It is NOT fair for the child. The child is the main focus here, NOT the woman or her partner who CHOSE to create it."
No, it is not fair for the child .... but how about we try to improve the lots of those born in the poorest sections of society - then maybe they wouldn't need so many abortions.
As with so much anti-abortion debate, it is all about pro-birth, and not so much pro-life.
Fix the "life" problems first, then you may find the abortion issue goes away. Education and health - preventative please.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
cad: "The child is the main focus here, NOT the woman or her partner who CHOSE to create it."
Wonder how you feel about the 9-year-old CHILD in Brazil who was raped by her step-father and conceived twins. I guess the focus should have been on the foetus twin "children" and not on the actual child whom doctors believed would die if she carried twins to term. Oddly, there was nothing in the news report as to whether the 9-year-old child CHOSE to create those twin foetuses.
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#232, RomeStu:
I feel sorry for you if you base much of what you think you know on Government polls. You should really learn to read between the lines sometime. You should ask yourself this question: When was the last time I have heard of an honest politician?
No need to thank me for the generous bit of enlightenment.
#233, RomeStu: You wrote: "No, it is not fair for the child .... but how about we try to improve the lots of those born in the poorest sections of society - then maybe they wouldn't need so many abortions."
Yes, exactly. That is what I said already in my previous post. Just because a child is under way to an agregiously bad environment, does not mean that it should be tortured to death before it has a chance at life though. The circumstances DO need to change to improve the lifes of those who are born into poverty. Never-the-less, it could be the one who is born into that environment who makes a change to improve the "lot" for the rest. In any case, a poor child is ALWAYS better than a dead child in a trash can. I do believe in birth control such as contraceptives (as long as it does not kill an already forming human being), condoms, vasectomies and hysterectomies. Above all else though, I believe that education is the dominant solution, NOT murder.
#235, Bere54:
You wrote: "I guess the focus should have been on the foetus twin "children" and not on the actual child whom doctors believed would die if she carried twins to term."
I have ALWAYS maintained that I believe if the choice is between the life of the Mother over that of the child, and everything humanly possible was done for the survival of both, that the Mother should be the one who lives. I know that there are those in the Catholic Church who would disagree with me on even that. So be it. They have a right to their opinions too.
However, I feel abortions should not be done for victims of rape or incest when there is no danger to the Mother. Why should they be done? The baby is not the guilty one in either case. The best way to deal with it? Have the child. If you still don't want it, give it to someone who does. If you want to get even with the rapist, raise the child to have some respect for women. If the child has to be raised in an orphanage, so be it. Many successful people were raised in orphanages. As far as the step-Father who raped his daughter? He'll get his punishment. Remember, he IS the guilty one, NOT the unborn child.
Closing ones eyes to the horrors of the abortion industry does not solve anything. It just means that your closing your eyes to it. The unborn are still suffering for things that they are not responsible for. In closing, I would like to end it with this: There is something HORRIBLY wrong when the unborn in our society are relegated to the same status as a disposable lighter.
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cad -
I have no idea what your gender is, but I wonder how you would feel if you personally were forced to bear the byproduct of a brutal dehumanizing rape. I suspect you are one of those people who cannot feel another's pain unless you have experienced the identical pain yourself. (Except in the case of mythical pain felt by a blob of cells.) The mere fact that you would force a 9-year-old rape victim to carry a pregnancy to term if her life was not in danger says it all.
In the end, your outrageously self-righteous, inhumane, and insensitive opinions do not matter because, whether you realize it or not (and that doesn't matter either), you are part of a minuscule minority. Despite what you claim, what you want will never come to pass. Millions and millions of sensitive and humane women (and men) simply will not permit it.
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#234, Bere54:
Rapes account for just 2% of the abortions performed. Even if it were ethical to punish the unborn for something that is not its fault, what about the other 98% of the abortions performed each year? Here in the U.S.A., over one million abortions are performed every year. You further wrote: "Millions and millions of sensitive and humane women (and men) simply will not permit it."(Abortion)
It is "sensitive" and "humane" to have ones own unborn child tortured to death?
Since when?
Perhaps you can tell me what is so "sensitive" and "humane" about trading the life of an innocent unborn child for the sake of an orgasm? I really think you should reavaluate your priorities and sense of compassion for all humanity. If you are not ready for a child, it is quite simple: DON'T have sexual intercourse without protection. There are other ways of having fun. Risking the torture of an unborn child is not one of them.
There is nothing"humane" and "sensitive" having sex at the expense of another living being.
It is only a matter of time before people open their eyes to the horrors of the abortion industry. Whether a child is murdered within the womb or without the womb, it is still just that, despite what any politician calls it: Murder.
Was there something "Sensitive" and "humane" about what Andrea Yates and Susan Smith did? Perhaps you could be so good and tell me the difference? I just don't see it. Furthermore, men and women who are raised with the idea that abortion is acceptable are MANY times more likely to have an unwanted baby than those who are taught to be responsible. Those who are taught to be irresponsible are likely to go on to having a second abortion also.
You also wrote: "I have no idea what your gender is, but I wonder how you would feel if you personally were forced to bear the byproduct of a brutal dehumanizing rape."
Well, it just so happens that I know a girl who was raped by a former boyfriend. She kept the baby who is now a beautiful young woman herself. She has no regrets either. Her family helped raise her and they have no guilty feelings about having her murdered for something she was not responsible for. The former boyfriend went to prison and he will NEVER see his own daughter. NEVER. That was part of his punishment too.
As I wrote before: There is something HORRIBLY wrong when any society relegates the life of an unborn child to the same status as a disposable lighter.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
My comment at #239 broke no House Rule. But it is apparent from what's happening on the Obama Drifting thread that there is either a glitch somewhere or the moderators have simply decided to remove all comments for a time.
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238, cad -
I see that you have directed another comment to me, but I did not read it, as I will not read any future comments of yours. Your viewpoint nauseates me. I can honestly say that no other posters on here or any other thread have had that affect on me, whether I agree with them or not. I think you need to find a focus in your life other than your deep-seated aching to exert control over the bodies of free women and direct how they would deal with their personal anguish.
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cadrolls1
I think it is splendid you have such a high, moral regard for children. You must have a wonderful family of adopted children. How many?
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241 bere54
"I did not read it" That was a very wise decision. I was wondering how you were managing to do so, as I could not. Now I know.
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243, timewaits -
Yes, there are some people it is better just to ignore. That cad person is unlike anyone I have ever met, thank goodness. And I meant what I said too; I will never read another of his comments on any subject on any thread. There can be nothing he would have to say that I need to hear (or that anyone else would need to hear either, for that matter).
My post above should have said "had that effect" not "affect." I'm so embarrassed.
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Ref 243-44
Now don't be too harsh, ladies.
I think all those crack babies cadroll adopted are a handfull at the moment. We all have our own children. We should remember how much of our time we gave to provide a loving, safe environment for our children so they could grow into the well-rounded, successful people they are today. And our children were not even crack babies.
We should be supportive of this loving, generous, wonderfully humane, adoptive parent.
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bere54
"I'm so embarrassed." Don't be, I didn't even notice. It is as you said awhile ago, you read what you think is written. And anyway, you were under a lot of strain!
Sometimes I wonder if people make some of this stuff up just to see how far they can go - it is so over-the-top.
Have you read the Poisinwood Bible? If not it is an excellent book. One of the daughters is constantly misquoting and I did not realize until about half way through when she said, "All the teeth in China." Up until then I had seen what I expected to see!! Needless to say, I reread it.
You should investigate opening a Twitter account at Twitter.com. It takes a bit of work to establish yourself but will connect you with all sorts of writers.
Also, now that I have your attention - my niece is getting married in June and her fiance's family are all from Scotland. I'll check around when I meet them and maybe find you an eligible bachelor who will take you there!!
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#241, Bere54:
You wrote that I have a : "deep-seated aching to exert control over the bodies of free women and direct how they would deal with their personal anguish."
I have found while debating with those who support the torture and murder of their unborn children the exact same way of thinking as yours as their mainline of defence. It ultimately comes down to you and never about the life inside of you. You feel you have the right to dispose of what you think is yours because it is inside of you just because you want to be free.
Freedom should not give you the right to torture another living being JUST because you feel that your a woman who must show that men can't tell you what to do. What about the freedom for the unborn? Don't you think that they should have any rights? I think they should.
#242, Publiusdetroit:
As a matter of fact, I don't have any children at all. I am not ready for a family so I am not going to bring any children in to the world until I am. Is there a problem with that?
Thank you for taking notice of my "high, moral regard for children." though. I appreciate that.
#244, Bere54:
You wrote: " will never read another of HIS comments on any subject on any thread." I never indicated what sex I am. Such an assumption seems to confirm what I have already written; the only reason you believe in abortion is because you feel that you have control from males in doing it. That is sad. What about the unborn child? Where does it stand in your twisted logic?
I guess you will never know.
#243, Timewaitsfornoman:
You wrote: "very wise decision". Care to explain?
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#245, publiusdetroit:
You wrote:"Now don't be too harsh, ladies." Excuse me, but a "lady" NEVER hires someone to kill her unborn child. A "lady" keeps her legs closed because she IS a lady.
I just thought I'd clear that up for you.
You also wrote: "We should remember how much of our time we gave to provide a loving, safe environment for our children so they could grow into the well-rounded, successful people they are today."
Congatulations. There is nothing wrong with that!
You wrote too: "We should be supportive of this loving, generous, wonderfully humane, adoptive parent."
Again, thank you. I am not an adoptive parent though as I am not in the position to have a child. Therefore, I am not having sexual intercourse that would jeopardize the happiness of my future child(ren).
Do you get it now? Thank you.
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Ref 247 cadroll1
Your welcome!
So when you decide to have a family, how many crack babies are you going to adopt?
These precious children really need adoptive parents who are morally dedicated to their rights; and the constant care and medical attention they require. Wonderful adoptive parents that will provide them a loving home in which to grow.
You seem to be just the dedicated type of person that are needed for these unfortunate children. I do hope you will look into becoming an adoptive parent. We need more good people like you so these children have a chance in life.
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Ref 248 cadroll1
Oh, now cadroll; you are the one being harsh.
I have been corresponding with bere and timewaits for some time now. They have both spoken with love and pride of their own very good, successful children. I am not the least aware that either of these fine ladies ever killed "her unborn child". The many, more personal, topics we have discussed leads me to believe they are both very good, very kind, very loving people.
It is so good to read that you do not wish to jeopardize the happiness of a child you are not yet prepared to raise. But please, do not judge so harsh these two, good mothers who were prepared to raise their children; and did raise them well.
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#249, Publiusdetroit:
You wrote:"So when you decide to have a family, how many crack babies are you going to adopt?" and also:"These precious children really need adoptive parents who are morally dedicated to their rights; and the constant care and medical attention they require. Wonderful adoptive parents that will provide them a loving home in which to grow."
Very well written.
They do not, however, NEED to be wiped out before they have had a chance at life. Not all crack babies grow up to be addicted to crack, you know. Also, if a crack baby, baby produced out of rape, incest, or any other non-traditional way is raised in an orphanage or foster home all of its life, it is STILL better than being tossed in a trash can. I'm sure you'll agree as you seem to have a modicum of respect for human life too. Bravo!
You wrote:"You seem to be just the dedicated type of person that are needed for these unfortunate children."
As I have written: I am not ready now but, perhaps in the future, it would be a possibility. Thank you for the compliment too.
#250, publiusdetroit:
You wrote: "topics we have discussed leads me to believe they are both very good, very kind, very loving people." Did the value system suddenly change and I was unaware of it? "Good", "kind", and "loving" people do NOT advocdate the physical torture and murder of ANY child whatsoever.
I do congratulate then for raising decent children though. We need more dedicated Mothers who are involved in the well-being of their children on this Earth. I wonder though. Since she raised her children to feel it is justified to kill off an unwanted pregnancy, how "good", "kind", and "loving" are they?
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Just one more thing to those who believe in abortion before moving on, unless anyone else has anything that they would like to add. What is wrong with telling your son (s) or daughter (s) the following:
"We in this family do NOT believe in abortion, therefore, if you get yourself pregnant, or you get your girl pregnant, it will be your responsibility for the rest of your life. This will, of course, limit your freedom to go out and have fun with your friends, limit your career choices if you want to continue your education, and may cause you to resent the very child that you brought into the world. We, as your parents, will stand behind you and help you as much as we can if this were to happen because we love you and always will. We would prefer that you wait until you have your future planned out and have met the one you love and want to be with for the rest of your life before having a child that will need all of your love and attention. We are not trying to tell you that you cannot date, we are merely telling you that you will be responsible for your actions, and that making a wrong decision could have a negative impact on your future. So think of what we are telling you before you make a mistake that you might regret later."
Any problem with that?
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Ref 252 cadroll1
Except for the part about abortion (abortion was illegal at the time) that was pretty much the way things were laid out for me by my parents when I was a lad. Something I kept in mind until I married and had a child. That was also the basic way I laid things out for my son when he was coming of age.
I am certainly glad that I did not father any children before I was ready to settle down and raise a family.
Unfortunately, this is an imperfect world. There are many young people who do not have parents that care what their child does. There are young people so desparate for love that they try to find the love they desire so much by becoming promiscuous. Then there are the drug addicts. They just don't care about anything as long as they get their drugs.
Often with a lack of love, proper attention and affection from caring parents; a child also fails at becoming educated. They have an inability to make good decisions. A careless attitude. Jerry Springer has made a fortune with his exploitation of these young people who have had so many sexual partners that only a DNA test can determine the father of a child.
Is it right to be so thoughtless that one brings an unwanted child into this world? No. Is there some way to prevent unwanted pregnancies? Yes. Does it always work? No. Do a large number of people even care about preventing an unwanted pregnancy? Unfortunately, no.
Right, wrong, or indifferent; you can write a law to ban abortion. Most states had such a law at one time. Did it stop abortions? No.
I grew up in a small town (just over 800 people). I knew everyone by name. There were 3 young women I knew of that went to another state for abortions when it was illegal in our state. There was one that went to a back-alley abortionist with tragic results. That was in just one small town with three churchs that packed in the populace every Sunday.
I support Roe v. Wade because I remember the butchery that took place when abortion was illegal in my state. Laws do not make a people moral. Parents are the key source for the morality of their children.
The fact is; some parents just do not care what becomes of their child. Jails are full of the result.
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#253, Publiusdetroit:
You wrote: "Unfortunately, this is an imperfect world." True, but abortions do not make it any less imperfect. They, in fact, make it less civilized, less compassionate, and less humane. As for Jerry Springer? I agree with you. I've said the same thing. He insults the intelligence of anyone who has any.
You wrote: "Right, wrong, or indifferent; you can write a law to ban abortion. Most states had such a law at one time. Did it stop abortions? No."
Publius, in all due respect, the facts on the numbers are as follows: In 1963, it was estimated that 100,000 illegal abortions were performed each year in this country. In 1973, after the Roe vs Wade came into being, that figure jumped to 750,000 abortions performed in this country. As of 1983, the figure had increased to 1.5 million unborn babies being tortured and murdered every year in this country. In 2005, there were 1.2 million abortions performed in this country.
So, having abortion illegal may not have stopped abortions, but it DID have a drastic affect on the number of women who had them done.
You wrote: "There were 3 young women I knew of that went to another state for abortions when it was illegal in our state. There was one that went to a back-alley abortionist with tragic results."
That is a tragedy, I agree. What about the unborn baby that was inside of her that SHE had tortured to death? Wasn't THAT just as tragic? In some kind of understandable defense for her though, back then, they did not know what we know now. It was not until 1976 that ultra sound came into being as a tool for Doctors to use for pregnant Mothers. We know now that the unborn feel their little hands and legs being ripped off from their bodies. We know, because we can see it. We know too that the later term babies even fight and struggle against the Doctor who is trying to murder it. We know, because of ultra sound, that when the Doctor finally does get the baby by the legs, the baby opens its little mouth and screams. In 1973, no one knew that. We know that now.
We KNOW that now.
You wrote: "I support Roe v. Wade because I remember the butchery that took place when abortion was illegal in my state. Laws do not make a people moral. Parents are the key source for the morality of their children." Excuse me, but what about the "butchery" of the unborn child? Doesn't it count for anything? I think it does. I feel whether the baby is inside the body or outside of the body, it should enjoy all of the same rights that we do. Thankfully, there are some in South Dakota who agree with me.
Yes, I agree that there are too many people in our jail system for drugs. That is why I am in favor of adopting a system to deal with drugs and users after the Holland model. It may not be perfect, but is a lot better than what we have now. 70% of this country's prisons are filled with people who are there for drug convictions. If we modelled our system after the one in Holland, the major drug cartels would collapse OVER NIGHT!
You wrote: "The fact is; some parents just do not care what becomes of their child. Jails are full of the result." Unfortunately, you are right there. So be it. That means that society has the obligation to raise that child to be the best person possible. It also means that society MUST educate people so they know HOW to care too. Taking the life of the unborn does NOT achieve that goal. It never has. It can never achieve it like that. Never. If compassion for your unborn child is considered wrong by society, how is it supposed to be taught in other circumstances?
The same holds true with the death penalty. There is not one shred of evidence that it has ever decreased the murder rate. That is a different issue that I do not want to get into now though.
As I wrote before: There is something HORRIBLY wrong when any society relegates the life of an unborn child to the same status as a disposable lighter.
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Cad,
No.Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peaceed
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246, timewaits -
I have read The Poisonwood Bible; I've read everything Kingsolver has written except her latest book on eating. But it may be time to reread Poisonwood because I don't remember the misquoting.
Oooh, an eligible bachelor from Scotland! Sounds intriguing - if you can find one who's really eligible. There's so much more to "eligible" than merely being available. I'm afraid I'm really really picky. And - ahem - when my son was little he told me I could never remarry because only a lunatic would want to marry me and he didn't want a lunatic for a stepfather. I've never been quite sure how to take that and he now claims he doesn't remember why he said that (ha - he's learned diplomacy, that's all).
250, publius -
Thank you for your kind words. I did not read the post you were responding to.
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#255, Ed Inglhart:
I am extremely familiar with what you wrote. If you only knew.
Still, you are comparing apples to oranges here. I must sleep for awhile and then go for a nice country drive and a little hike. I need it. I'll debate more when I return. Try to have any questions or comments lined up then.
Thank you.
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bere54
"Poisonwood" You know - I googled poison wood to see if it was one word and every listing was with an "i", so I thought ok, guess she spelt it with an "i"!! Oh dear - that's how rumours get started.
Re: lunacy - probably the best he could come up with at the time. My father died at age 65 and in later years I would tell my mother she should have remarried so she would be able to do all she wanted (she was "comfortable" financially). She was "not interested" and what would she do with an old man? etc. etc. "No, no Mum, he'd be dead by now and you'd have the money."
Just being realistic not mercenary! Well - it amuses me!
First on my list to check for - stone cottage within walking distance of a pub. Should be fairly easy to ascertain. "So where do you live? Any pubs nearby?"
250 publiusdetroit
I read as far as being accused of not being a lady so read no more. Thanks for the defence. ("c" Canadian/British spelling - another red underline on my post.)
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252 yes if they get the abortion do you never speak to them again?
Are they only loved if they do it your way?
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So, having abortion illegal may not have stopped abortions, but it DID have a drastic affect on the number of women who had them done.
IT KILLED THEM
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"Is there something wrong about comparing vegetables to humans?"
depends on the Human.
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CAD you say"DON'T have sexual intercourse without protection. "
those kids that are prevented from being taught about condoms because the push was for Abstinence programs.Or because their rigidly stiff parents don't want them to learn.
What about them?
I presume by this comment you would back calls for sex ed including use of and importance of, the rubber Johnny .
Maybe even the fee giving out of the dunkies at school.
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And try walking instead of the drive to go walk . Idiot that is why america use up so many resources . lazy excuses.
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happylaze
Now six comments awaiting moderation. I hope at least some get through. I look forward to reading them.
I'm not crazy about this new format! Now we know what takes so long. They have been spending (wasting) their time redesigning when they should have been moderating!!
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Cad,
Both fruit - more in common than in difference - the point of the quotation.I wonder if the new sourcecode will allow a £ sign or is it still an American-first font? I see it ignores block quotation.
Salaam, etc.
ed
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Ed Iglehart - Don't you know any eligible bachelors for bere54? She really, really wants to move to Scotland. Although I hope fleeing the Vermont winters is not on her agenda, especially when the Gulf Stream pump stops pumping!!
(Maybe I can hide out here and ask, what does HYS stand for? Other than Hy's Steak House or the Hawaii Youth Symphony!)
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Timewaits,
If you use Firefox, you can get a British English dictionary....Bye Bye red underlines!;-)
ed
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Ref 254 cadroll1
Cadroll, I am glad we have been able to carry on this corrospondence without tossing insults at each other. Much more interesting that way.
I went on a quest to find abortion statistics pre-Roe v. Wade without success. It would be very difficult to come up with a reliable estimate of illegal abortions because of so many factors that existed prior to Roe v. Wade. I will not dispute the number you stated. It may well be a rational estimate. Who can tell?
1) The practice of abortion in 1963 was illegal. The only real way to determine if an illegal abortion took place was to catch the participants in the act (very rare), or for a woman to openly testify that she had an abortion (not likely in that time). Abortion was not a topic that came up in open conversation in 1963. It was a topic for whispers, if a topic at all.
2) Sexual promicsuity in 1963 was not as typical as it was in 1973. The "the pill" opened the door for the "Sexual Revolution" and brought about much social change in the course of a decade. (I came of age during this transistional period; so I am quite aware of those changes in sexuality)
3) Quasi-legal abortions were taking place under the guise of "mental health" concerns and a variety of other medical diagnosis.
4) Any estimate would need to recognize the number of ultimate abortions that took place. Suicide. It was a very different world in 1963. A woman would kill herself to avoid the shame to herself, and her family to hide an unwanted pregnancy. It would be equally difficult to make a determination whether a suicide was because of an unwanted pregnancy, or some other reason.
5) The practice of birth control during the decade between 1963-73 was haphazard among the young. As an example; eight young women dropped out of their Senior year of high school in my older sister's Class of 1967 (48 students) because the Home Economics teacher explained the "Rhythum Method" of birth control "backwards". (She had told the young women in her classes, in error, that it was safe to have sex during the most fertile time of their reproductive cycle)
One also must take into account that the national population was growing at a high rate during this time. Us "Baby Boomers" were coming of age in numbers never seen before the boom.
It is of note that the number of abortions have peaked in the 1990's and are steadily declining since; according to both the Allen Guttmacher Institute and the Center for Desease Control reports. There are many reasons given for this decline; but it is good to see that abortions are declining.
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With this new system - I presume you all see the same - after posting it says there will be a short (I think is the word they use) delay. What is a long delay in the UK?
Reminds me of my days as a receptionist when I would say, "One moment please." A man I knew well asked me how long was a moment? "As long as it takes to get the person you asked for on the phone."
Re: my advice to my mother. I viewed it as a short term investment with a long term gain. I hope none of the upcoming comments from "the guys" are chastising me! The fictional man would have inherited four charming step daughters.
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Cads just to let you know. I do believe that abortion is not the Ideal.
BUT rape aside. many people do not want kids because quite frankly there are too many people for this planet at THIS rate of consumption. Some do not want to have a child in order for it to be sent to fight a war in order to squeeze the last two drops of oil out of the ground.
Some see the misery being caused and about to be caused by Global warming and the race to Armageddon by the Christian right and say "DO I REALLY WANT TO BRING A CHILD INTO THAT" Into a world where Kids are brainwashed by the religious folk on all sides.
Make a better world and maybe the generation of parents that say NO will say Yes.
but then you could always carry on about the symptom rather than the cause.You have so far.
PS nice stance on Drugs.
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Ref 258 timewaitsfornoman
Not to worry. I read and speak Canadian/British quite well. I can even work the crossword puzzles. Does that make me bilingual, or trilingual?;-)
I am glad both you and bere chose not to read the posting. Presumptions are most often made in error when a topic is passionate.
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258, timewaits -
Yes, stone cottage, not too far from pub; beard also necessary, or willingness to grow one (a fetish with me); must be able to support me in the style to which I am accustomed, which is very frugal, except . . . I've always said if I ever remarried I would need at the very least my own room but preferably my own house (albeit a very small one)!
Yep, it's Poisonwood with an "o" (straight from the horse's mouth, or rather the book itself on my bookshelf). She explains somewhere in the book what poisonwood is but of course I can't remember that either.
Sheesh, this new design is hard on those (me) who don't adapt easily to strange things happening on the computer.
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259 happylaze
"Are they only loved if they do it your way?" Not suggesting that you of all people would ever have an abortion! .... I could be wrong but think you are speaking from experience. Have the feeling you did not do things your father's way but from what you have said, what with your "folk" coming to live with you and all, there is much family love.
I adore my children and they know it!
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267, timewaits -
"HYS" - so glad you asked that; I was wondering that myself.
268, Ed -
You seem to be able to do a lot more with Firefox than I can. Maybe it has something to do with my OS. Apparently it's obsolete. I can't install a flash thingy in order to watch the Daily Show and that's very frustrating. ("Warning, warning, unsupported system!") Now I understand why my daughter bought a new macbook and gave me this ibook (which is the one I bought for her to take to college and she seemed pretty darned thrilled with it at the time so I thought I was getting a good thing when she gave it back to me.)
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Time
HYS could be the bbc"Have your say "
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268 Ed Iglehart
"Use Firefox" I do. Would you talk me through making the change as I do not seem to be having much luck. Thanks.
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DE FENCE
the fence
go see a blacksmith.
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Time . I suspect the format may be better for the visually less able but I agree. A little strange.
I always wonder why computer programmers don't hire the likes of me for short spells to see what the truly un-computerised think of the ease of use of some systems.
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273 bere54
Ok - got it. Should you think of anything else, let me know. You have until June 13th. Since you remember so little of the book perhaps it is time for a reread. I can reread Agatha Christie and still not know "who dunnit." (or dunit both appear to be acceptable.) To the topic at hand, you must at least remember that father's worldview was based on faith and faith only.
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270. At 4:53pm on 16 Mar 2009, timewaitsfornoman wrote:
With this new system - I presume you all see the same - after posting it says there will be a short (I think is the word they use) delay. What is a long delay in the UK?
Lol British Rail.
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281 happylaze
"British Rail" One time we were sitting on the train waiting for a 10:00 departure to Paris from London. Waited and waited. Finally were informed we would be leaving at 10:30 as there were many employees of British Rail on some special deal - but they had all been told 10:30!! Ergo - we could not leave without them!
My sister-in-law does that for a living (and makes a very good one), trying to crash new systems. But she's an expert.
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happy, BR indeed. They got me into a lot of trouble with my dad. I got so fed up with the delays and strikes in the early 1980s that I went and bought a motorbike. He's never forgiven me for that. But then again, I never died on it (somehow).
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happylaze
Appears to be Have Your Say - Thanks. It took forever to find where it was used. Can't believe how often the word "physical" (containing the letter hys) has been used on these blogs.
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#269, Publiusdetroit:
That figure of 100,000 was supplied by a Doctor who used to perform abortions until he knew better. It was the same Doctor who produced the movie: The Silent Scream.
#Happylaze: All of the questions you asked have already been answered in my previous posts. I am glad to hear that you are not in favor of abortion. Remember, if people who said that they were for abortions REALLY were for abortions, they would talk freely about it like anything else. The fact that they don't means that even they know it is wrong.
Well, I think we have covered everything that needs to be covered on this subject. I'm ready to move on. Please, people, see the movie: The Silent Scream, before doing something that you will regret for the rest of your life.
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284 lol time glad I could help.Hope your visit south warmed you up for the next few months.You may still be waiting if you were waiting for BR.
Sean you wreckless fool ;) Keep off the bikes they do damage;)
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Justin:
Thank you for allowing me to use your forum. Many unborn children will someday thank you for it.
Thank you.
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285 Why thankyou.
Now,
WHAT???
Do you really think girls go out to get pregnant just so they can have an abortion.
As to before doing something that I will regret.
If I get pregnant I'm Made mate.MADE.
I'll be the richest freak on the TV.
Why would I ruin an opportunity like that?
Why don't you go and live with a rape victim.Change your views on that and I will not agree with you but I will not think You evil.(naah really I don't anyway.Many other things but I'm trying , for Ed's sake.
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BTW I talk freely of abortion. and do not see a sin. just I do not see it as Ideal. like much of modern life.
But it makes all the sense in the world to pay a little to stop a baby being born into a life of servitude and misery.
Seems that you would endanger the life Of the mother for the baby. You are so absolute , but maybe I missed the part where you excused abortions where it could damage the mother, (if the chances were small enough for you to decide for them.
So what of the 12 year old victims of rape ,already suffering from malnutrition forced to carry the baby FOR YOU and YOUR rights.
I think all aid programs these days o conflict zones should include abortion centres for all the victims that we see.
You need to learn more empathy.
I get your point but you are a zealot about it.
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timewaits -
Now that Ed has cautioned us to be nice for the moderators, I am afraid to go off topic again. But I will to the extent of saying I look forward to reading Poisonwood Bible again because all I remember is a family of missionaries traipsing around a jungle somewhere, and a bunch of daughters. Oh, and per above off-topic discussion: not obese, please! (The Scotsman.)
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288 happylaze
"for Ed's sake" I've really been enjoying the "new you." S/he may have been misled by my 274. Liked your reaction. Apparently his/her work is done here so has moved on - to where I do not know, but someone should give them a heads up! I am pro abortion (not as a form of birth control), not sure if I know anyone who isn't.
South Carolina was good, very enjoyable and now the weather is warming here, so all good. Do I recall you mentioning you are a fan of maple syrup? If so the season has started here. Bought some that was canned two day ago. $8./540ml (19fl oz.)
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bere54
One of them, Rachel, misquoting all over the place. Took me a minute to understand obese. Of course not! I'll chat him up about stem cell research to keep on topic.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Noman & Bere (277,275),
British English Dictionary for firefox
Once installed, you may need to select it as your 'active' dictionary. This is simply done by right clicking in a 'comment box' such as the one you use on this blog to enter a comment. You should theen see a popup menu option (mine is 'languages', under 'check spelling', and enables me to select between several dialects of English (but no Scots yet).
As to 'ancient' operating systems, they can be replaced, or you can actually set up your computer to offer you a choice at startup (dual-booting). I'm running on Ubuntu, but I can still opt to use windoze, but I haven't felt the need in ages. Ubuntu will run on most machines, and I have no trouble with such as the daily show.
In fact, when others occasionally sit down to use my computer, they don't notice it isn't windoze, except to remark that it seems a bit quicker than theirs...or to notice that the top line has all the applications instead of at the bottom...
Let me know how you get on.
Peace and Free software
ed
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295 Ed Iglehart
Thanks, but I will have to wait for a "computer expert" to return home. Did as you said; my choices English/US or dictionaries. Under dict. found Canadian English, agreed to an add-on, agreed to restart and..... that's where I am! No change. Obviously missed something - probably one of those dire questions that I am afraid to answer as I don't like either choice. And... I wouldn't want to commit myself!
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Noman (296),
Have you selected your new dictionary by right-clicking in the comments entry box?
;-)
ed
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297 Ed Iglehart
No! But I have now -thank you!! honour honour neighbour neighbour - Look no lines!!
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#293, Publiusdetroit:
Your quote was taken out of context in regards to what Dr. Nathanson wrote. He never wrote that he lied about the figures that he provided as the basis for becoming pro-life. He did, however, write that he lied about the figures he submitted to get the laws changed in order to perform abortions in the first place. Here are just a few direct quotes, which are used with permission, from the website from where they came:
" We announced to the media that we had taken polls and that 60% of Americans were in favour of permissive abortion. This is the tactic of the self-fulfilling lie. Few people care to be in the minority. We aroused enough sympathy to sell our program of permissive abortion by fabricating the number of illegal abortions done annually in the U.S. The actual figure was approaching 100,000 but the figure we gave to the media repeatedly was 1,000,000. Repeating the big lie often
enough convinces the public. The number of women dying from illegal abortions was around 200-250 annually. The figure we constantly fed to the media was 10,000."
Dr. Nathanson furthers this with the following:
"Foetology makes it undeniably evident that life begins at conception and requires all the protection and safeguards that any of us enjoy. Why, you may well ask, do some American doctors who are privy to the findings of foetology, discredit themselves by carrying out abortions? Simple arithmetic at $300 a time, 1.55 million abortions means an industry generating $500,000,000 annually, of which most goes into the pocket of the physician doing the abortion. It is clear that permissive abortion is purposeful destruction of what is undeniably human life."
Finally, Dr. Nathanson finishes with this:
"AS A SCIENTIST I KNOW, NOT BELIEVE, KNOW THAT HUMAN LIFE BEGINS AT
CONCEPTION"
"Although I am not a formal religionist, I believe with all my heart that there is a divinity of existence which commands us to declare a final and irreversible halt to this infinitely sad and shameful crime against humanity."
Remember, Dr. Nathanson wrote that he performed atleast 75,000 abortions. If he is not an expert on the subject, I don't know who is.
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299 small point but you say with permission of the web site but give no way of knowing which web site.
Just for the sake of it ( i do believe yo) you should include some ref to it for people to look at.
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publiusdetroit
"In the mid-sixties I impregnated a woman." What!!?? Who is this maniac? Since it happened in the mid 60s perhaps he is dead, otherwise take away his licence. And stop reading those books! Or at least quoting where I might see them! Please.....
Instead read Simon Mawer The Fall. I recommended it to ukwales (where is he?). It is about rock climbing in Wales. Lots of rock climbing. ukwales told me he "only climbs in the summer when the rain is warmer!"
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Ref 302 timewaitsfornoman
"And stop reading those books! Or at least quoting where I might see them! Please....."
The paraphrase in my post 293 would have spared you (and other thoughtful readers) the blunt reality of that cold-blooded quote. That was my intent for paraphrasing instead of using the direct quote. I apologize as I assure you that Dr. Nathanson's words were more than startling to me, also.
If ukwales is climbing rock in the rain, I have to admire his grip. I like nice dry handholds. I'll climb with him, though!
My son and I were doing some "bouldering" at Split Rock in Wyoming on our way from Lander to Laramie. That is a well noted stop-over on the old Oregon/Mormon/Pony Express Trail. Spectacular views! Great rock!
Rock that compels one just to touch it; just to hold it; just to bask in its sun-warmed comfort; tickling ones's finger in the chill of shadows. The grit feels re-assuring and good to the sensory pads of finger tips. One's mind says to trust this bond. One reaches for the next hold as if drawn. Suddenly you find yourself as part of the ancient rock. Below you; a disconnection and pain. Above you; desire.
In an illusionary distance stands a striated wall of rusts, pinks, tans and a rainbow of purples and browns standing on rubbled toes reaching for the wide blue sky patched with thin, cotton-ball, white tufts greeting your eyes as you stand upon the top of the rock you have just mated. Even this old man was scampering around on the rock like a Rocky Mountain Big Horn sheep. Sure footed and nimble with an eye that saw a small knob as a foothold without seeking. A barely noticable, adventageous crack as if it gave an enticing scent that drew a foot or hand to the right hold. A timeless rock blossom sculpted by age-old water and wind still broadcasting an endless desire to be touched; to be held tight.
Time became irrelevant. Place became all that mattered in the universe. Gentle wind buffeting in our ears enclosed our solitude on a vast landscape. My child looked down and over to me from his seperate route to catch my eye and see if our time in this gritty, alluring playground was going to be called to an end. He would grin to see me reading a route in yet another boulder that called to me; and knew that I did not want to leave any more than he. No words were needed, nor spoken. The wind would have eaten them if uttered.
Have you ever seen all of life within a moment? All that is good? All that is harmful?
Have you ever cast off doubt to climb a wretched fear just to see what is on the other side; ignoring possible peril? Warmed in a chill wind by adrendline?
Standing atop yet another boulder; cattle grazed like ants far below in the valley of the Medicine River basin winding through a low, yellow, meadow awaiting spring rains to kiss passion into the dry soil that would brighten into lush, green dreams of renewed nourishment and hope. Ancient, naked rock created a backdrop high above until humbled by the wide, blue horizons. The air was thin and clean as it surrounded us in billowing sheets wafting against us with blustery swats of invisible fabric from over the saw-tooth tops of the rugged Wind River range of the Rocky Mountains. Winds never fulfilling your panting breath; yet sustaining all your needs of motion. Tempting even further desire to clamber up to the next vista.
Upon that vista I was treated to seeing the shadow of my younger self, as if reborn, while my child scampered over ancient rock with a lilt like I had the first time I clambered among the burst slopes of the Great Divide not much older than he. I could hear the echos as Grandmother Earth whispered in my ear, "Climb me. You'll see my beauty magnified. Embrace your fears. They are nothing but unconquered ghosts. There are only ghosts you choose not to face. Seek all you can. I am all that is you. I am vast. There need be nothing more. Nourish your spirit from these high breasts."
I never brought this young man I watched leading me ever higher among timeless stone into this present world to become an extension of myself, nor my passions. Yet, I smiled to see him painted in the mirrors of my eyes. Once again, we have become that image together. We prolong a lineage into another generation.
There was a small, natural, water-filled basin in which someone had fashioned the "circle of life" with small stones. I washed my hands and face from the waters in honor of Grandmother Earth, then called my son to absolve himself in the clear waters, dimpled by puffs of wind.
He completed his abulations, turning to me to see if he had done so with proper reverence. I gave no sign except a nod. There will come a time when he discovers all that was in my heart. There will come a time when the dimpled, smiling waters will refresh his spirit in need. He will remember. Then: he will know.
We are now...eternal.
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publiusdetroit
You sound like "The Fall." I do not know if rock climbing is for me, although sitting quietly and watching the mighty St. Lawrence flow by is a similar yet less exhausting experience (as I do at our summer home). Kahnawake (Mohawk) is on the far side so have no trouble envisioning the past. I tend the pond I put in myself and wait for the water lily to bloom. My mother (who died 2 1/2 yrs ago as I'm sure I have mentioned) gave it to me from her own pond, so has much significance. I fill the bird feeders, feed the wild ducks, and wait for the fox to arrive or perhaps I should say he waits for me. If startled he runs off until he hears my voice. It keeps me busy tending the livestock!
As I told ukwales, I learned from the book to climb on "breezy days" as it tends to dry the rocks. (I think he was joking about the "warm rain.") The one time I drove through the Rockies was at night on the old Route 1. Talk about terrifying! I don't know if daylight would have helped. I have been to Montana though - dusty!! Had to wipe off my watch to see the time.
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#293, Publiusdetroit:
The quote that you used was taken out of context in regards to what Dr. Nathanson wrote. He never wrote that he lied about the figures that he provided as the basis for becoming pro-life. He did, however, write that he lied about the figures he submitted to get the laws changed in order to perform abortions in the first place. Here are just a few direct quotes, which are used with permission, from the website from where they came:
" We announced to the media that we had taken polls and that 60% of Americans were in favour of permissive abortion. This is the tactic of the self-fulfilling lie. Few people care to be in the minority. We aroused enough sympathy to sell our program of permissive abortion by fabricating the number of illegal abortions done annually in the U.S. The actual figure was approaching 100,000 but the figure we gave to the media repeatedly was 1,000,000. Repeating the big lie often
enough convinces the public. The number of women dying from illegal abortions was around 200-250 annually. The figure we constantly fed to the media was 10,000."
Dr. Nathanson furthers this with the following:
"Foetology makes it undeniably evident that life begins at conception and requires all the protection and safeguards that any of us enjoy. Why, you may well ask, do some American doctors who are privy to the findings of foetology, discredit themselves by carrying out abortions? Simple arithmetic at $300 a time, 1.55 million abortions means an industry generating $500,000,000 annually, of which most goes into the pocket of the physician doing the abortion. It is clear that permissive abortion is purposeful destruction of what is undeniably human life."
Finally, Dr. Nathanson finishes with this:
"AS A SCIENTIST I KNOW, NOT BELIEVE, KNOW THAT HUMAN LIFE BEGINS AT
CONCEPTION"
"Although I am not a formal religionist, I believe with all my heart that there is a divinity of existence which commands us to declare a final and irreversible halt to this infinitely sad and shameful crime against humanity."
Remember, Dr. Nathanson wrote that he performed atleast 75,000 abortions. If he is not an expert on the subject, I don't know who is.
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300. At 4:38pm on 18 Mar 2009, happylaze wrote:
299 small point but you say with permission of the web site but give no way of knowing which web site.
Just for the sake of it ( i do believe yo) you should include some ref to it for people to look at.
Happylaze: Plubiusdetroit quoted from this website: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Nathanson
As you can see, he took a quote from the caption and NOT from the site.
My quote came from: http://www.aboutabortions.com/Confess.html
You can easily see why it is important that plubiusdetroit straightens his quote out.
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Ref 304 timewaitsfornoman
There are plenty of days I like to go down to Belle Isle and watch the frieghters on the Detroit River glide pass in the main channel. Sounds as if you have a lovely view at your summer home.
I am sure you have knowledge of your neighbors across the river because you call them Kahnawake, with Mohawk in parenthesis. Mohawk is an Algonquian term meaning "Man-eater". The tribes of the Kanien'keha:ka, or "People of the Flint" would be honored by your form of address.
An interesting belief among the Kanien'keha:ka, related to the subject matter of this thread, is that we are all free spirits before our birth. We choose our parents. It is our own decision who our parents are.
Most North American native tribes believe that we become free spirits once again upon our death. We choose where our spirit goes. Death is not defeat. Death frees the spirit to wander as the spirit pleases. I know why you wait for the water lily to bloom. The blossom is your beautiful mother smiling at you again.
There is no death...only changes where the spirit chooses to dwell.
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Ref 306 cadrolls1
All I have done was point out that Dr. Bernard Nathanson is a self-admitted liar and also, a self-admitted illegal abortionist. I leave it to readers of this thread to make their own judgements regarding the integrity of the doctor.
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faith and science do at times co-exist but there is times you have take it by faith and faith alone.
#9 p.e.t.a stands for people eating tasty animals
couldnt resist
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saintDominic we evangelicals do believe in the second coming of CHRIST and science is not the answer.they are not in the buisness of giving away
their victories for free.its all about the money only the rich will be able to afford the price for the cure from the stem cell research.as for people religeous or not this world system dictates what you can or cannot do.
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308 publiusdetroit
I know many people from Kahnawake. Not close personal friends, but acquaintances. I find the native people to be so mind mannered (even the man eating Mohawks) with a wonderful world view. Many of the Kahnawake girls are very beautiful.
I know I chose my father and suppose I did choose my mother for a reason, that often would escape me!
Are the freighters going to the Atlantic? If so I see them pass my place on the far side (3-4 miles). From the "Res" (as they call it) they can almost reach out and touch them. It is part of the St. Lawrence River Seaway System.
Just read an interesting article (I think on BBC) about a study in the US that revealed that the more religious a person is, the more difficulty they have coping with their own death. Opt for extraordinary measures to be taken and therefore prolong and make the process more painful. Interesting. My mother was very matter-of-fact. "I can no longer live the life I want, it is time to go." And within five weeks, she was gone.
When she moved from her place in the country she insisted my sister pull the lily out of the pond to give to me. I was not there but was told by my sister it was not an easy task and she grumbled her way through it!! I have now had it for 6-7 years and so appreciate what they both did for me. My sister would love to create her own pond, so told her I would "split" the lily. She is thrilled. My mother, as usual, was right.
This is rather lengthy but don't think many people come this far. Palin! what a ridiculous topic and AIG not much better. I'm concerned for all you guys because I think the US is going to hell in a handbasket. Not! made of sweet grass!
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#308, Publiusdetroit:
"All I have done was point out that Dr. Bernard Nathanson is a self-admitted liar and also, a self-admitted illegal abortionist. I leave it to readers of this thread to make their own judgements regarding the integrity of the doctor."
No, that is not what you did. You took a quote out of context for your own agenda. That is lying.
It doesn't matter as I have posted the source of your quote along with the source for my quote. Yes, I quess we will let the readers be the judges. Dr. Nathanson did indeed admit to lying in order to get abortion legalized. Atleast he had a conscience as he was honest enough to admit to it too.
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307, publius -
If we do choose our own parents then I'd have to say that's the worst mistake I ever made. Must believe there was a reason for it!
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Ref 311 timewaitsfornoman
Just a quick note before leaving for a funeral.
I certainly agree about the Palin/AIG threads. I notice most of the regulars are not getting into those subjects. The basket is not made from sweet grass, but thorns.
314 bere54
But when your spirit becomes free again, you get to choose again where it goes;-) There was a reason you chose them. I like the thoughtful person they raised.
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313 bere54
Both of them? I heard once that people marry their least liked parent. "I married my mother? Why did I do that? I was looking for someone like my father."
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314, publius -
You are kind! Perhaps the reason was for me to learn how NOT to be a parent, so as to be a better parent for my own children. Now I'm wondering why my children chose me, since they seem to think I am so ridiculous. Although not so ridiculous as to be spared a day of cleaning and arranging stuff today to get ready for an unexpected onslaught of children and their significant others for the weekend! (I need to try to appear "normal" for the benefit of daughter's boyfriend; this is very stressful.)
315, timewaits -
My parents were not abusive, but both were extremely discouraging (told us what we weren't capable of instead of encouraging us to dream and strive) and emotionally cold. I say "both were" but I assume my mother is still living as I haven't been told otherwise. I somehow managed to escape marrying either one of them but chose a whole different set of problems!
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306 thanks for providing links.
307 pub when debating with myself on religion or faith or the after life whatever,
I once thought that maybe if we came back ,we came back as the last thing we were thinking about . I ie if you were thinking dolphins hey presto flipper it is. Is you wanted to slow down a little and just watch like a rock the plymouth here you come (out of a new volcano or sedimentary layer.A bear a yogi it is.
but because most humans think of nothing but humans we end up with overpopulation.
I moved on from that quickly but then there was another bowl heading around the table.
309 and you are not the first to come out with that oh so original joke.
What do you call people that belittle animal rights?
Hells fodder.
Good Joke?
Jesus got very upset about the misuse of animals for sacrifices, but you will joke as they sacrifice animals to that same science that supposedly tries to destroy your faith.
Not a big time thinker are you.
PS health care is given away for free in europe.They are doing the stem cell research already and trying to treat people for free.
(oh yes all pay taxes but if they got rid of health care they would have more money for bombs.)
Now the OLD testament God was asking for animal deaths all the time. One reason I take no real interest in the old test.
what a pile of trash.
But Jesus did not. Are you evangelical ?
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311 time waits I read that article about resisting death as well. very interesting.
As to parents. I have no complaints , except a total lack of pot in the family.
of course.;)
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316 bere54
"Told otherwise" Oh I am really sorry to hear that! My mother and I had a "falling out" as my father was dying; will not go into the whole sordid, sorry, story ..... We patched it up after several years. As to your "whole different set of problems," well I don't know what they were, so cannot comment. I think it would be hard to parent if you do not have examples to follow (other than, whatever it is I will do the opposite). My parents set a wonderful example even though both Taurians (not my most compatible sign), so warm but not emotional people.
My two sons accept me for who I am and only occasionally give me "well meaning helpful hints." Your children come to visit - that's a good sign.
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318 happylaze
What? Your parents are not pot smokers? That certainly is grounds for complaint.
Resisting death - I don't know what that means. They so frightened themselves about the afterlife?, they're beginning to doubt?
My father-in-law (Catholic - non-practicing) and not much of a father; left when M, my husband was seven, rarely communicating with him and when he did causing all kinds of trouble, etc. decided on his death bed to call long distance after years of silence to beg forgiveness, in his gravelly dying voice. It was so hard for M to suffer through that phone call. I was so upset and angry! If he was not dying I would have gone out west to strangle him. I could only think he was having doubts about how to explain his behaviour to St. Peter or whomever it is one does the explaining to.
We do not know if M's mother is alive either. Believe it or not she left before father, so he was abandoned by both his parents! Our only hope, it is put in the paper because I can't imagine who is going to call.
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319, timewaits -
"Falling outs" were/are common in my family so I have told my kids that if they ever have a falling out with each other or with me I will hunt them down and knock their heads together! They accept me for who I am but the boyfriend is coming here for the first time and I have been told that his family is very conventional so I am going to try to appear less unconventional, but if you could see my flat you would know that this is probably a futile undertaking. Gently poking fun at me and my ignorance of modern culture and technology is great entertainment for my kids, and I like to be of use, even it is only to provide humor for those dear to me.
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320, timewaits -
Oy, yes, families are strange. My in-laws dropped my kids like hot potatoes after their dad died, and then years later some of them tried to be close and couldn't understand why my kids were not interested. That's very sad about M's family. So glad you weren't forced to strangle the father and have to go to jail. My sister occasionally receives a nasty email from our brother, with whom our mother lives, and so when our mother dies I'm sure she'll hear from him and then I'll find out. Sad to say, neither of us cares anymore. What's interesting is that apparently it never occurred to our brother that if he turned our mother against us, he would be the one stuck with her. Poetic justice. He's paying dearly for his inheritance, and he's welcome to it!
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322 bere54
It sounds as if you have had more than enough to deal with. Hardly know where to start with my, "sorry to hear(s)..." I interpret from what you have said that you did what was necessary to protect yourself and your children from emotional damage. I'm tempted to say, "more damage." I have an understanding of what that is like (although my children were not involved, it was my own personal misery).
If not for M and my sons, who are techno whizzes, I probably would be as ignorant as you of technology (actually I am - but I have access to instant answers. Such as, "Arrgggh, why does this thing not work?" And then one of them comes to my rescue!)
Poetic justice is right. But I really am sorry that whatever happened, happened.
Have a good week-end with your children.
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timewaits, bere, happylaze
Celebrate with me the freed spirit of my Great Aunt. The last surviving sibling of my Grandfather (the white side of the family). Even though my 93 year-old Aunt was an ardent Penecostal, I know she would smile at me for seeing her passing in a red way. She was that wonderful a person. Jesus would be proud of the endless kindness and natural good cheer of this faithful follower. The funeral and luncheon was a happy affair sharing fond memories of family.
Bere
I believe you answered your own question as to why you chose your parents. I am an eccentric. I have followed that path willingly after extensive study of what is considered to be "normal". The normal can have their complex lives. I prefer mine. I fit in it comfortably.
My son was embarrassed at times because of my viewpoint when he was younger. He got over it and now has fun introducing his eccentric father to new friends he brings for me to meet.
timewaits
At least your mother chose to become a peaceful playgroung for butterfly, bee, and dragonfly; not forgetting a delight to your eye.
happylaze
In the red way, your spirit does not have to be contained in another vessel once you have passed from the old vessel. You are free. Take your time. Choose wisely. Perhaps a pipe;-)
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323, timewaits: ""Arrgggh, why does this thing not work?" And then one of them comes to my rescue!"
I once asked my daughter to explain to me how the internet works. She opened her mouth, closed it again, gazed sadly at me, shook her head, and said, "Little elves, Mom. It's all done by little elves." And I understood perfectly!
Good news is she got a new digital camera and is bringing me her old one and is actually willing to teach me how to use it! This I know will provide her with great amusement as I struggle to figure out how the little elves get the pictures from the camera onto the computer.
You're lucky you have a "big elf" right on the spot when you need help. I have a tech guru I call for help sometimes and he always first asks if my daughter is around so he can explain things to her, as he and I don't speak the same language. Sigh.
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I love you all.
{{{{{{{{hug}}}}}}}}
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bere54
I haven't a clue as to how the internet works although I'm sure it has been explained to me numerous times. Whether I wanted to hear or not! Nor electricity, cars, even telephones!
I'm only interested in the little bits that concern my everyday life. So if there is something wrong with our car, tell me how to fit it should I be alone and presto! I impress the hell out of people when I lift the hood!! Since M has a science background he knows more about cleaning products than I do. "What should I use to get this stain out?" Why clutter up my mind with such trivia? I'm sure I have more important things to think about, but I can't remember what they are at the moment!!
What's the topic? Right - I have faith in them!
Born Again
I was hoping you were not going to bring Palestine into this discussion - I'm hiding out here and was going to ask you to talk about something cheerier. And you did! Thanks.
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publiusdetroit
I understand what you mean. When an elderly relative dies my extended family gathers and the funeral becomes a celebration of family. We have in fact become closer through these events. The gathering is a gift your great aunt gave you.
But is your father not in his 80s? How much younger was your aunt than your grandfather? All my greats as well as aunts and uncles are gone. We are now at cousins, although many years older than I, as my mother was the second youngest of a large family. My father having only one sibling who never married.
My niece announced she had put the "aunts" (me and my 3 sisters) in order of eccentricity. The one who took the lily out came first - well that went without saying and I came second!! Sanity apparently was not on the list.
I reconciled with my mother and do not allow those painful years to cloud my thoughts of her. She was a remarkable woman and I have forgiven her as my father would wish (which is why I did) and am proud to be her daughter.
Loved your "perhaps a pipe." Pretty witty!!
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Ref 328 timewaitsfornoman
My great aunt was the youngest of my great-grandparents children. Grandpa was second oldest of 7. Only 7 years seperates my great aunt and my father. She was more like a big sister to my father than an aunt. They have been close all their lives.
Dad could not travel the distance to attend the funeral. I made certain that I would be there for him. Great uncle appreciated that.
We had a long term estrangement from our family. My youngest sister would not talk to any of the family for several years. She was coming out of the closet during that time, and was uncertain how the family would handle her sexuality. She moved to Windsor, Ontario so her and her girlfriend could marry. (My new sister-in-law is a Canadian citizen)
They were both surprised that we had no problem with their relationship, nor their marriage. We were all happy when she returned to family functions. Life is too short.
Now both her and my father are fighting cancer. They have made plans to ride a motorcycle together for Sunday breakfast this summer. Something they did all the time when she was a young girl.
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publiusdetroit
Such family stories we are hearing. My father had an aunt who was 10 years older, a Newfoundlander, so wonderfully eccentric. They had a close relationship. I used to love going to visit her. We came home one day to find tire tracks all over the lawn. "Guess Aunt Daisy came to visit while we were out." Polar opposite to his maternal side as they were very Victorian. From them I learned all the important rules of etiquette, such as: never take the last biscuit from the plate.
A shame about your sister, so many wasted years for naught and so sorry to hear of her illness. I do not recall if I mentioned that my father also took part in a new treatment study, not to save his life but to improve the chances of others.
To keep on topic - he had faith in science.
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timewaits -
Whew. Finished cleaning. Arrival of daughter and boyfriend imminent. Thankful my son is here helping. I have faith that the flat will pass muster and not look too unconventional. Can't help the fact that nothing matches.
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bere54
"Kit Inspection"
Oh best of luck! If he's not into mismatch he's not the guy for you!
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Ref 330 timewaitsfornoman
I would not be surprised to learn your father was active in the community and was always finding interesting things to do as a family. He encouraged exploration and was able to view something from a few different viewpoints.
Studying the science of faith; you might say. In a moderate way;-)
bere
Your cleaning spree set me thinking.
My childhood home was always very tidy and well organized. My father's tool shed was always in a state of chaos.
My own home is in a state of chaos. My garage is very tidy with all things in place.
Makes me wonder why that is so.
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publiusdetroit
He was a senior executive (with a company you, with your Canadian knowledge, would know) responsible for all areas involving personnel; insurance, pensions, etc, including negotiating with the union! Which he insisted on doing in French (although not fully bilingual) as the employees were French speaking and, "Why should they be force to negotiate in the language of management?"
He served in the RCN during the war on the North Atlantic convoys. He bought a run down non-working 135 acre farm which we owned for years. He had several mottos, one being: "I am willing to help anyone who is willing to help themselves." We always knew he would support us (and pay for our education) for as long as we were in school. He knew damn near everything, name a subject it mattered not.
He was a man of few words and if you got a smile out of him, it made your day. If he was active in the community it was "hands-off" only learning latter he was the one who had made all the arrangements. He was loved and respected by all who knew him. He was the Captain of our Family ship and when he died we imploded.
Re: your cleaning style: You have different priorities.
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Well, timewaits and publius, they've all gone out to meet friends for drinks. Daughter and her boyfriend prepared sea scallops and asparagus, yum. (I don't really cook.) I was invited along for drinks but didn't feel like sitting around a bar with a bunch of young whippersnappers. Sent them off and cleaned up the kitchen. All this cleaning might just kill me. My place is not exactly chaotic because too much clutter makes me feel crazy - except for books piled everywhere - and I don't have much stuff. But as for dust and all that, well, I don't notice it until it's very thick. Daughter's boyfriend doesn't seem to have noticed all the mismatched stuff, or the "hippie sheets" hanging over curtain rods instead of curtains, or else he's too polite to let on if he noticed it. Daughter says he is a "matching" sort of person. But such a nice young man.
Timewaits, your father sounds like he was a marvelous person. I'm envious.
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A Bedtime Story
Sleep well
ed
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Born Again
Wendell Berry? Now where have I heard that name before?
Thanks, 'Nite.
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bere54
Love it when the sun shines, except that it highlights the dust! My mother when we were growing up, "Don't touch the blinds!" (venetian) Why? "Because you'll get your hands dirty!!" Nothing to do with messing up the blinds, we didn't live in that kind of house. I have proudly kept up the tradition. And books, books, books, everywhere!!
Sounds as if the visit is going well. How far away does your daughter live?
[With the new Preview feature here, you can practice making words bold, etc. The preview will show whether it worked or not. For your info.]
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Timewaits et.al.,
You can also use some other characters. They'll show up weird in the preview, but will come out right after posting...
So, now you can type cliché or visit Zürich....But, for reasons beyond explanation, we can't symbolise the Euro...
And blockquote no longer works....but I'm working on it...
Slainté!
bae
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Born Again
Thanks, but not on my computer they don't!! Anything with 194/195 gives me A with a squiggling line on top. If I separate them; 163 gives me £, 169 ©, but I have yet to find any French accents that work - all that I am interested in as I don't see myself writing anything in Swedish! I will keep fooling around with the numbers.
I am presuming they will appear as in the Preview, will see when posted.
Also, "Canadian" English appears to mean British. They want me to spell practice with an "s". See? red line under practice (times 2).
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Born Again
As that did not work! I reread your post where you said they will appear "weird in the preview." Should have taken the time the first time!
So will try again £ (pound), é (e acute) or Ãé ?
 - à Either the Euro? Will see....
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As an experiment, I've been trying to find a substitute for block quotation:
<p style="text-align: left; margin-left: 10%; margin-right: 10%; color: #000000; background-color:#eeeeee"><i>" [place quoted text here] "</i></p>
will give the following:
"Eventually this mechanistic line of thought brings us to the doctrine that whatever happens is inevitable. Actually, this stark determinism is altered in general use to a doctrine that is even more contemptible. Every bad thing that happens is inevitable. For every good thing that happens there are mobs of claimers of credit. Every good and perfect gift comes from politicians, scientists, researchers, governments, and corporations. Evils, however, are inevitable; there is just no use in trying to choose against them. Thus all industrial comforts and labor saving devices are the result only of human ingenuity and determination (not to mention the charity and altruism that have so conspicuously distinguished the industrial subspecies for the past two centuries), but the consequent pollution, land destruction, and social upheaval have been "inevitable.""
Of course, the colour and background specifications are optional...;-)
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Noman,
Like I said, it'll look strange in preview, squiggly-topped As and all, but when your comment clears moderation, it'll do the accents or pound symbols correctly, as long as you copy the codes correctly from the table, and you'll find the blockquote substitute below the table...Also just copy and paste as indicated...
;-)
ed
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#342 looked right in preview!
In final, I could've git the same effect with <i>""</i>
;-(
Why do I bother? Too breezy to enjoy gardening, I guess...
Slainté
ed
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Born Again
Re: Your quote - Who is it that thinks like that again? If you wouldn't mind reminding me, so I can steer clear of them.
Personally I think it would be ever so much easier if BBC just made the change for block quotation. Why don't they? In the meantime I will live without.
Remember way back in the days of Wendell Berry's typewriter? (Perhaps you were not a typist then.) If £ was wanted, just type capital L, backspace, dash, and there you go!
p.s. I will hide out here and say to you - I don't know what is going to happen in the States. This social upheaval as they try to identify themselves. Capitalist/Social Democrat? Just who are they? Only half the country is satisfied half the time. It is just too big, but I have said that before. Divide it into four semi-autonomous regions is my suggestion. But... it's just a suggestion!
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" [place quoted text here] "
will give the following:
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timewaits -
You're so right, this country is way too big, there will never be consensus on anything. Too big, too diverse (and so many too ignorant).
Daughter lives in Boston area. Son lives in Brooklyn (for now; he is a rolling stone). All have gone off home and left me again (and after all that cleaning!). I have a friend here whose husband longs for total collapse of everything so all their children, step-children, orphaned niece and nephew (it's quite the blended family - between them they raised 7 children - his, hers, her sister's), will have to come home again and live on the farm. He says the farm can provide them with everything but shoes.
Our local independent bookstore owner seems very confident about things not collapsing as he is about to lease a print-on-demand machine and he called me this morning to ask me if I will take the job of print coordinator since they don't have anybody working there now who can do manuscript evaluation or editing or any of the other extra services that are offered (for extra money) with POD. I confidently accepted, but know nothing about most of this. He seems to have faith (on topic, there) that I can learn (he knows nothing about it either.) Yikes. Have not had a "real" full-time paying job for 20 years.
If everybody writes books and prints them and we all buy and read each other's books, will this stimulate the economy?
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Ed, was it you or someone else who told me to right-click to do certain things? Have just found out from my daughter that on this ibook, control-button click is right click. And now I can't remember what I was supposed to right-click for.
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bere54
You have a job! Wow! fabulous. I'm sure you will quickly learn what is required. Sounds right up your alley.
I know after I am forced to do a major cleaning, I think, "This is nice, why don't I keep it up?" But I don't! And then am forced into more cleaning the next time!! You may at least enjoy it for a few days.
Right click: You can use it to "copy and paste." Perhaps you know that. Ed talks about Firefox #295. I go to Edit top left, and choose "find" - on mine it opens at the lower left, then enter the word(s) I'm looking for such as "Firefox." Click "Previous" or "Next" arrow. I usually have my own name there to navigate quickly. Hope that helps.
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timewaits -
The job is not quite definite; it all depends on whether the bookstore guy actually gets the machine, and even then it won't be for another few months. Plenty of time for me to get myself into a real state of panic. Or I could spend that time more constructively by learning how to do all the stuff. Hm.
In the meantime I'll play around with right-clicking.
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in ref;317 happylaze
Jesus got upset about the use of his fathers house,as a selling place for the animals.read mathew 21 v12&13
also no offence but the GOD of the old testament is also the GOD of the new, in the old it was animals in the new it was his son john3v16
i do not believe in treating any thing with indifrence except for tree huggers and those that would put animals rights over human rights .save a seal kill an unborn child just for the convience of it, realy animal rights what a shame .
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325 ELVES?!?!?
Arn't they like fairies?
No, you go correct your daughter. it is little wizard created demons.;)
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pub . nice way that red way. My red wings will help me on that journey. and I'll take some red bull for good measure.
I think A pipe has a problem for me. Unless they have got rid of Cops by then.
they like to destroy pipes.
Indeed I know someone with a $1000 fine for having one, so I 'd turn that one down.
but a test subject for pot trials , cool.
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Bere,
Right click offers a choice of speel checking and which dictionary (if clicked in an entry box - Firefox. In ie8 it offers less, but does offer "select all". triple clicking selects a whole paragraph. double clicking selects a single word. Ctrl/f takes you straight to "find" (quicker than edit/find) works in firefox and ie8, and probably most browsers. Ctrl/s usually saves in text processing applications (stone-age word processing shortcuts)
And, yes I do remember how to do a pound sign with a Manual typewriter ;-)
I do recommend autohotkey
http://www.autohotkey.com/
Peace and good night
ed
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Ed Iglehart
I have, "a wryly affectionate account of growing up in Canada among a community typical of farmers everywhere, but known here as The Scotch." Took it out of the library today, shouldn't take long to read. Did you live in Elgin County?
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Ref 311 timewaitsfornoman
We get a lot of "salties" passing up and down Detroit River and the Great Lakes. I remember ships from the old USSR making passage on the Lakes to get grain. It always seemed a small act of detente to wave to the sailors leaning on the rails as they passed along the St. Clair River.
As for the Beeb article on religious people taking extra-ordinary medical means to prolong their lives. I guess if one faces the prospect of facing a judgement that could sentence one to eternal fires, it would be a dreadful prospect.
I am glad I get to be a freed spirit.
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I don't think it was Elgin County. Just South of Barrie.
Ypo'll love the book, I suspect. A very witty fellow.
G'night all
ed
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publiusdetroit
A map to identify the ship passing. I do not know why it does not show any ships. Are there none in the Seaway right now? It says at the bottom "late March to December." I hope they did not remove that feature as it was very informative. There is an annual contest to be the first ship of the year to arrive in Montreal. It used to be after the ice melted but now is January 1st. Major competition among ship captains. Honour, etc. etc.
Born Again
Looks like Barrie is in Simcoe County - for further reference. Although we do not use counties (shires) as they do in the UK or US. Perhaps more so in the "country" as there is no major city to identify it. On our drive south were constantly informed as to which County we were entering. Interesting but not very informative.
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timewaits -
Do you have ice-out contests in Canada? There's one here, on Joe's Pond, that is a fundraiser (but I can't remember what it benefits). You pay a certain amount to pick your date and time, and whoever is closest wins a jackpot. They have some very complicated method of putting something in the middle of the frozen pond, with ropes or strings or something attached to it that run across the pond into someone's house, and when this thing finally falls into the thawed pond, the rope pulls on some kind of clock thing and records the exact time. It's all very scientific. What I don't understand is how the rope survives all those snowmobiles roaring around on the lake all winter. Maybe they don't set it up until the thaw has started. I'll have to ask the guys at the diner. Those regulars know everything.
What's depressing is that often ice-out on Joe's Pond doesn't occur until sometime in May. Oh, please, bring on the global warming!
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Ref 358 timewaitsfornoman
Here my be the reason:
Shipping season looks late, slow
3/23 - Green Bay, Wisc. Here's the quick answer to when the first ship will be in the port of Green Bay for 2009: "I don't know."
For Port of Green Bay Director Dean Haen — and others around the nation with ties to shipping on the Great Lakes — 2009 looks like a slower year for traffic as a result of the flagging economy.
"There's nothing even on the schedule, that's how slow it is," Haen said. "(The first ship) has ranged anywhere from March 15 to April 15."
He said the first arrival date might be closer to April 15 — or later — this year.
"Nobody is clamoring to get a ship in," Haen said. "If you look at the stockpiles that are along our port facilities right now of dry bulk material … it looks like it's the middle of the year. They've got a significant leftover supply from the '08 season. There just isn't urgency to get ships in at this time."
He said some terminals have indicated they don't expect shipments until April or even May.
"All indications are very slow," Haen said.
Shipping traffic is expected to be lighter this season on the Great Lakes as fleets scale back their operations in the face of a sagging need for capacity. Cargos like iron ore for steel production and limestone for construction projects dropped off precipitously at the end of last year.
At least early on, there is little expectation for change. Some boats have had their sail dates delayed, while some may not sail at all this season, according to the Ohio-based Lake Carriers Association.
The Soo Locks at Sault St. Marie, Mich., are expected to open Wednesday and the St. Lawrence Seaway is slated to open March 31.
Green Bay Press Gazette
I looked at the National Data Bouy Center site. There were only 2 "reporting" ships listed. All ships do not report weather data, but there are at least 2 ships on the Great Lakes.
I judge the future state of the economy by ship traffic on the Great Lakes. Freighters haul the raw materials of commerce. The gypsum freighters are usually among the first on the lakes. They are not even moving.
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354 Born Again
"autohotkey" I don't know who you think bere54 and I are!! Invite us to Scotland and we will take private lessons! Until that time.......
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I'm not going onto those other pages! But will very quietly post Elections Canada FAQ, including "Is someone allowed to eat a ballot!! Go to "entitled to vote" or "serving prison sentence."
I find if I mention some things are different in Canada (sometimes even for the better I think!) the reaction I receive is akin to, "Yeah, yeah, whatever, we're talking about ourselves."
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359 bere54
"Ice-out" Probably, none that I know of personally. I googled to see and the first up was in Vermont!! As mentioned the big competition is "First into the port of Montreal" which use to mean there had been a thaw. Now there are ice-breakers.
We unfortunately, as it sounds good, do not want global warming as our part of the world will be colder! The melting ice cap affects the Gulf Stream pump(s) and when they "turn off" Europe is in big trouble (so you may want to rethink Scotland), but we will be affected as well. Don't get rid of those winter clothes.
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360 publiusdetroit
Oh Boy! Sorry I brought the topic up. Did you know that previously? Not good news at all! Where is all this going? People talking about whether Obama's jokes are funny or not. Good grief! Anyway... as you probably know Montreal is a major port (I think I am correct in saying the largest inland port - no time to google - just been informed both sons will be here for dinner! and it's 5:15!) but here is their schedule. Do not know how it compares to other years.
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Ref 364 timewaitsfornoman
Thanks for the schedule. The FEDERAL SAGUENAY is a frequent visitor to the Great Lakes. Have seen her many times.
It would not surprise me that Montreal is the largest inland port. A quick turn-around for the "salties". I know there is a major CP railhead there also.
Living on, or quite near the Great Lakes all my life, I just have a feel for the traffic. I have been fascinated with the Lakes freighters since my youngest days. My first, home-away from home was in the mansard of an old "Queen Anne" style house on the river in Port Huron. The former servants rooms that my landlady rented out to college boys. Her husband was a ship inspection agent for Lloyds of London. I had a terrific view of the St. Clair River from a window in my room.
Watched the SYDNEY SMITH go down after colliding with the PARKER EVANS just below the Blue Water Bridge after being wakened by the signal horns. Fortunately, no loss of life nor serious injury to either crew. I threw on some clothes and ran to the riverbank. It was an amazing thing to witness.
The most compelling issue about moving away from Michigan is moving away from the Lakes. But, Wyoming has mountains!
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Timewaits & Bere (361),
Don't underestimate yourselves. It's actually very straightforward and as easy as writing a letter on a wordprocessor.
With it, you can have ctrl/i produce <i>""</i> into which you can paste text to be quoted, or alt/l can be set to produce <a href=""><b>bold blank link</b></a>
Or whatever homegrown shortcuts your heart desires, and you'll feel so cool
;-)
Hesiodos
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364, timewaits -
Now I see that you can make things bold too. I feel so left out. At first I thought you were posting a link to your sons' schedule - arrival time for dinner perhaps. Just kidding. Am I insane for wishing my children would live with me forever? Besides just missing them, I had trained them how to do everything (by making them do it) and now they've abandoned me to forever after having to do my own grocery shopping again. Oh well. At least my son took my car through the car wash the other day, something that terrifies me so I never do it (and of course here a car needs its spring underwashing). Whine. Whine. Enough!
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Ref 367 bere54
I can understand your attachment to your children. I have been enjoying having my son live with me for the past year. He will be leaving for Wyoming in June. I am as excited for him to begin his new adventure as he is. But, I know that I will miss not having him around.
My son moved in with me having a plan for the future. He had spent time out on his own, successfully. Had a full-time job and was taking college classes he paid from his own pocket.
Now it is time for him to stretch his horizons. He has made a good plan with lots of opportunity awaiting. It makes me proud to see him take some well calculated risks to reach his goals.
I will still miss him.
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366 -
I despair. The autohotkey link may as well be written in a different language. The only thing I understand is that it wants me to do something with Windows Explorer. I use a Mac so don't have Windows. I have no idea what Windows Explorer is.
You remind me somewhat of my high school geometry teacher. When I told him theorems might as well be Greek as far as I was concerned, he said, "I know Greek." Well, that was no help. Not that you haven't tried. But those who know stuff sometimes have difficulty understanding that there are those of us (me) who are just plain inept at certain things. I have not adjusted well to the computer age. Which is scary considering that now I am supposed to learn how to run a print-on-demand business. Yikes. All I want is to get my grubby hands on other people's manuscripts and fix them. With a pencil on paper.
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Hesiodos
I'm thinking "no invitation to Scotland?" Wouldn't mind some help in undoing what's been done to my screen while attempting one the your "stunts" though.
bere54
Schedule - That made me laugh! I was in a hurry! 5:15 and two hungry sons arriving....
Bold is much easier than linking believe me. As I said before you can try it and see with the "Preview" option (beside "post comment") if it worked or not. Am not able to show you as Ed can, so will attempt to explain. I'm presuming your keyboard is the same as mine. See above where "Heloise" gives the example. Just the parts right before and after "bold blank link"
Shift key+comma (less than sign), the letter "b",Shift key+period (greater than sign). Put the word(s) you want bold here,Shift key + comma (less than sign), / (forward slash under question mark), letter "b", Shift key+period (greater than sign.) Check preview - The end!
It looks complicated but really is not - give it a try. Write what I wrote in bold down on paper and refer above to Heloise's helpful hints. I'm "tutorialed" out!!
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368, publius
But why can't they take well-calculated risks to reach goals and still live at home? Oh, I know, we are supposed to make ourselves obsolete. Not fair. My son refused to go to college after going to all the trouble to get accepted at Reed. He has never spent more than a year in one place in the last ten years, until now. He's been in New York City for a little over a year. He lives a subsistence lifestyle because he has no desire for stuff. He has travelled through Europe, worked on a tall ship, worked with a circus, taught wind surfing, waited tables, driven a cab, tended bar on Bourbon Street, done construction. But he has no goals, so I just want him to come home, and I've found a nice girl for him. She also did the rolling stone thing and has now come home.
Ah well. It sounds like your son is headed in the right direction, and it might lead him back some day to live near you.
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bold bold bold Oh, timewaits, I did it! Thank you!. You have no idea how exciting this is. I think sometimes the blind are better led by the blind because they know what it's like not to be able to see. If that makes any sense. Will you help me run the print-on-demand business?
Oh Happy Day!
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#367
Bere,
Bold is overrated. It's yelling in the dark.
Be sweet. Be factuals. Be yourself.
Fan Sam
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372 bere54
So glad. And yes what you said made sense. Next time I will attempt to explain linking but not tonight, as I said I'm tutorialed out!! But do write down with Heloise wrote in #366 starting with "Shift comma (less than) a ref=" etc...." for reference when I do try.
I was going to link to the Gospel song "Oh Happy Day!" but it does tend to go on......
and publiusdetroit
Both my sons are in Montreal. After decades of young Anglos leaving there has been a turn-around in this city and many choose to stay. Our youngest son lives with us. He is still "Finding himself" as I tell all who ask how he is doing! Right now he is working with his older brother who has an apartment in a "hip and trendy" part of town and has his own business. I have mentioned him before and he is doing very well. We are extremely proud of him. If our youngest could only find something he would like to do he could be very happy and successful, as I keep telling him. They have always got on extremely well together so we are hopeful something will come of this. Montreal is a very hard city to leave. Our sons have no intentions of going anywhere.
I feel for you both.
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Ref 374 timewaitsfornoman
During grade 11 my son was talking to Armed Forces recruiters. His mother kept telling him he would be out of her house once he graduated high school. He was becoming desparate. Of course I reminded him he also had a room at my house, but he was still feeling desparate because most all his friends knew what they were going to do upon graduation.
His shop teacher and I steered him towards the "trades". I explained that he would at least be learning something that would come in handy while making a living as he explored the endless possibilities open to a bright, ambitious, young person.
His mother did get him out of her house, in a hideous fashion, not long after graduation. He had a good paying job in a cabinet making shop, so was able to get an apartment with a roommate. During that year he decided he did not want to work in a shop for the rest of his life. I told him to sit down and list the things he likes to do; what is really interesting to him. From that list he began investigating career matches. He found that people actually make a good living from careers that require strong, outdoor skills. Now he is on his way.
I am very proud of him.
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bere54
Last thought for tonight. You can put words in italics the same way. Substitute "i" for the letter "b".
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publiusdetroit
Good for him. I know it will be very hard on you when he goes to Wyoming. One of my sisters has only one child and when her daughter went away to University I made the mistake of saying in conversation, "Now that L is gone.....(whatever)." My sister almost shouted at me, "She not gone!" Uh oh, backtrack, backtrack..... "No, No I didn't mean gone, gone..."
My youngest son takes after his mother and is damn near impossible to motivate. I'm bad but he is beyond the beyond. As for his aspirations; money! that's it. Not the desire to earn any, just to have it. Oh! and lots of it! The old, you have to start somewhere, doesn't carry any weight with him. That is why we are so hopeful about him working with his brother. But, if he lets his brother down (not something he has ever done before) it will be time for ..... well I don't know what...despair? Move out, make it on your own? Hope we do not have to cross that bridge.
Definitely last post of the night. 'nite.
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timewaits -
Thank you. I think I will use italics rather than bold for emphasis so as not to rattle Sam by shouting in the dark.
Your comments about your youngest son are very interesting. My son has been somewhat of a trial because he won't settle down to anything. He has always believed we are destroying the planet so there is no point in investing in anything long term, such as a college education or learning a trade. He learns different skills as he goes along. I think if I lived in a city my kids might not have wandered (except to their own places) but there are no jobs here, no social life, because all the young people leave because there are no jobs. It's a vicious cycle.
My son is also like his mother, completely without ambition or desire for anything other than the immediate comforts - roof, clothing, tea, chocolate (although my son does like food as well, something I do very well on very little of). I tried to force him to have ambition when he was younger but it didn't work. Maybe it's genetic. My daughter is more like her father - mathematically-minded, capable with her hands as well, able to fix anything, jumped right into the deep end with computers while her elder brother and mother still flounder around in the shallow end, majored in chemistry with a minor in physics (my father was stunned: "No one in our family has ever got a degree in science!").
Good luck with your son. I know you know you're fortunate to have them nearby.
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bere54
But is he happy? When it comes down to it, that is all that really matters. I was amused by your, "I've found a nice girl for him." I'm sure he's delighted!
Our son in not happy most of the time and we struggle to help him overcome his mental stumbling block. He and we, with our laissez faire attitude have allowed this to go on for far too long. Since it worked wonderfully well with our eldest son we were constantly playing catch up when we realized it was not working for him.
We used to live in the country south of Montreal, so understand lack of jobs, children leaving, etc.
Change of subject - on another post there was talk of people asking, "Do you know so-and-so?" Just got an email; a friend skiing out west, on a chair lift, conversation... they both know M!! I was going to post that it happens to him all the time, because it does! Once with a friend on Mount Kilimanjaro!! She couldn't wait to get home to tell us! "Do you know M? As a matter of fact, I do."
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bere pub time et al those sons need to get to a smithy.
OK it doesn't work for all but hell it is the one thing as fun as a bowl (yea yea bravo man and the "dirty" word) . Admittedly not much money.Unless you get to be of albert paleys notoriety ( hint he gave up smithing and now fabricates.Bit like learning oil painting and moving on to crayons)
http://www.cadinfo.net/editorial/StLouisZoo.htm
And it lasts and uses scrap(lol crap argument really)
good luck to all you families
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ps blacksmithing has faith and science in it every day.
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379, timewaits -
He's not terribly happy and that's why I worry. I wouldn't care what he was doing if he could just be happy. So you and I both know what it is to have an unhappy child. One of the reasons he's unhappy, though, is that he can't seem to meet the right sort of woman. His latest semi-girlfriend ate white bread and frequented MacDonald's! That was enough for me to know she wasn't daughter-in-law material. He tried to overlook those flaws but got bored with her and told me that never again will he date anyone who watches something called Gossip Girl.
He agreed to meet my young lady because he knows I have good judgment in young females. And she agreed to meet him because she just likes meeting new people. They both knew it was a set up and were humoring me. We three had dinner on Wednesday, then they met up again on Saturday for drinks, and have a tentative "date" to garden (!!) together next time he comes up. So . . . I'll just have to wait and see.
So funny about far-flung people knowing your M. I was once in a shop somewhere while traveling and happened to mention the county in Virginia where I was living at the time, and a person (I think it was another customer) said, "Oh, do you know --?" And I did. He is the brother of one of my best friends.
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happy -
I'll ask my son if he's interested in smithing. Do you take apprentices?
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happylaze
That's some fabulous stuff. Unfortunately with my son, he doesn't like to get his hands dirty - literally!! Watching him construct a sandwich without touching the food is a sight to behold. If there was any money in that he would be rich!! He is an "odd one" but extremely lovable.
I took a picture for you in SC but have yet to figure out how to post it without it linking back to me! Don't mind you and many others knowing, but the whole world....nah! Brookgreen Gardens. Be prepared for the music. I did not find what I took a picture of on the site. A frog...obviously!
The science of nature.
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Ref 377 timewaitsfornoman
I never realized how much influence I had with my younger brother until we were well into our thirties and he was blaming me for a poor choice he had made all on his own. That was when he explained to me how important it was to him that I recognize my authority as older brother.
We sorted through the issues of how I had unwittingly attained my authority over him. It even surprised me that he wanted me to continue my role as his authority figure. Younger brother is a rebel without a cause. An undirected source of energy. All he really needed was a sense of place. I helped him find that place once I understood my influence.
He is still "trickster coyote" in many respects. But he has settled into making a good life for himself. He rebels against me from time to time. I let him vent his pent-up energy without harm to our relationship. It is nothing more than his restless spirit seeking room to roam. I am really nothing more than his middle ground. A high pinnacle he can find when he scatters his spirit too thin. A safe haven where he can return to tell me his stories and recover his scattered spirit.
I hope your sons understand their relationship as well as my brother and I have come to understand ours. It is a comfort to our parents.
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bere54
"not terribly happy" Oh dear! that's a different story. At least he does not stay with unsuitable girls. White bread, McDonald's and Gossip Girl, (whatever that might be?). No, no will never do!
Our eldest son was with a "nice girl" but I knew not for him, for the longest time. I had a hard time dealing with it. Was so afraid he was going to marry her. Especially when he came home "to talk to us." Uh oh! Instead wanted our advice on what to do about his relationship. I wasn't going to be the one to say, "Leave her." But thankfully he did and is much more relaxed and happy.
A cousin of M's met a young man she was sure would be perfect for her daughter, who humoured her mother by going out on a date with him. They are now married, so there is hope yet!
The science of love.
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384 Dirty !Not smithing. you must be thinking of banking or something.
I walk out I'm dirty right down to my soles but my soul is clean.
That is why I didn't get into banking.
But blacksmiths in general need some marketing.
Bere alas I cannot make enough to keep the vet bills sorted let alone employ someone.
I came here only 8 years ago without money to a world where "tool collectors" and "my granpapa was a blacksmith I thought it would look kinda nice as a door stop" are more numerous than smiths.
where fabricators think they understand metal.
But there is the john c campbell school out east and there may be others. the local ABANA chapter may host (as we have in eugene) local free ,or contributions accepted, open shops. Where he could get to play and see if he likes the hammering (amazing how many say "too much work this")But if he is ever wandering in Oregon tell him to look me up.
Pub I said I would come back as a pot trial subject, but the reality is as a Smith (with a well appointed shop;) )
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
385 publiusdetroit
"understand their relationship" I believe they do, but of course could be reading my reading into it. I was brought up to get along with my siblings. "She is your sister" end of story! To me that is paramount and I brought up my sons the same way. "He is your brother!!" End of story. They have a very close relationship and truly love each other. There could be "issues" but am sure they will work them out. Another of my father's mottos: "If you have no one else, you always have your family."
My son G (while in High School) and I met the mother of a classmate ...long story, but she mentioned how helpful her eldest daughter was being to her youngest which was not the norm. She asked G if he often fought with his brother? "No." "Never?" "No." "I don't think that's normal," she said. I let it go, but I do, or it certainly should be. Something unpleasant happened to G and our son R came over while M and I were out. I asked if G had told him what had happened and he said that's why he came over. I was truly touched.
Do you have any more siblings in the woodwork? Your sister we know of, now a rebel without a cause, you are eccentric, you tell us. Any regular, run-of-the-mill people in your family?
The science of genetics
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Ref 387 happylaze
I hear smithies like their coke;-)
(Note to the Mods: This is a fuel source. Not something packed in a nostril)
I have a cousin who started out being a farrier. He liked banging on hot iron so much he became a smithy. Most of the family thinks he is an under-achiever. Of course, they do not see the talent in his skill. Makes enough coin for his modest needs.
If the economy continues diving into the quenching tank, you and him might have just the invaluable trade needed to prosper.
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happylaze
"too much work this" You gotta wonder about some people sometimes. What did they think it was? My son would make a wonderful marketer as I do not know anyone who has more friends and acquaintances than he does. It is truly phenomenal! Okay I have Newfie blood and tend to exaggerate but it seems half the city of Montreal knows him! In a good way.... I hope! If not, I don't want to know! Although I cannot see him talking up the cause of blacksmithing - sorry!
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happylaze -
Well, it's a bit late now. My son spent a year out there in Eugene but, as I mentioned long long ago on another thread, was driven away by the climate and since he got himself arrested for no reason in California has decided that the whole West Coast is not the place for him. He also worked on a ranch in eastern Oregon for awhile but fled after he saw how they get those "Rocky Mountain Oysters." It was the screaming of the bulls that put him off.
publius -
My daughter would like her elder brother to be an authority figure, but has little patience with his fecklessness. And besides, when they were little she always had to go down to the rec room with him because he was afraid of the dark. She was a brave and good little sister.
timewaits -
" "odd one" but extremely lovable" describes my son as well. But he doesn't mind getting his hands dirty which is good because he can garden with the young lady. They are both interested in organic gardening. Ah, already I see tiny grandchildren tumbling in the dirt!
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timewaits -
I was brought up not to get along with my siblings, which is why I made sure my kids would always get along. I have never seen them have a fight. Disagreements, misunderstandings, sure. They're human. But they were taught from a very young age to always be there for each other. And they must be, because all they've got besides each other in the way of family is me.
It's my theory that parents often subconsciously encourage certain kinds of behavior in their kids because they think it's "normal" (sibling rivalry, squabbling in the car, etc.) and then when their kids do behave that way the parents roll their eyes and complain in a mock way to other parents, proud that their kids are, after all, "normal."
I never wanted my kids to be normal. I wanted them to be nice, moral, loving people. And they are.
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Bere & Noman,
If you want < (less than) to display, type: <
If you want > (more than) to display, type: >
If you want & (ampersand) to display, type: &
If you want to start Italics, type: <i> You must close italics by typing </i>
As you'll see, it's the same for bold, except with i
If you want <b><i>bold italics</i><b>, use both, but be sure to close in reverse. Check in preview
Good luck
Heloise
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A thread evolving into one about real people and real lives rather than about politicians, lies and bigotry. Hallelujah/Hamdulillah!
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bere54
"organic gardening" That could be a future. Much the "in thing" now. Buy locally, buy organic. Does this young lady have access to land?
Re: How to link - I do not know how Ed is able to print out the instructions, because when I do I get what I asked for, bold, etc. not the "behind the scenes" instructions - I shouldn't say that as he will probably proceed to tell us....! Ed - you know I appreciate your help.
But I will try to explain. First (this is not necessary but I find it easier) open a new tab by going to File (upper left) "new tab" this will give you another page to work with. You can switch back and forth between the two pages - upper centre (not top left) where it says "Justin Webb's America" and the new one which initially says "Google." Perhaps you know this? On the new page find the article, whatever, you would like to link to. Click back to this page "BBC," in the comment box put in what Ed says in #366 after "can be set to produce..." Write it down and have it beside you. Leave out the part that indicates bold, this just complicates it for you right now.
Shit+comma, "a" (leave a space) hred="(* see below)" Shift+period, Write in what you want to call it - appears in blue, shift comma, slash (question mark),"a", Shift+period.
I wish he had left the "make bold part" out as it only makes it more complicated for you, especially as I cannot put in the less than/greater sign!! (The blog doesn't like it!) Basically the same as instructions for bold but with an "a" and the "href" part.
* Go back to the other page which has the article you want to link and copy the entire address starting with http...etc. and paste it between where the star is "*." The quote marks are needed, not just for show.
I see Heloise is awaiting moderation, maybe he has some more helpful hints. Perhaps by the time this appears you will be an expert. Or.... it could be the invitation to Scotland we have been waiting for!!
Just hope this helps!
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bere54 & Hesiodos (