Brown's free trade message
Forgive me for not getting that excited about the Brown visit - the truth is that the special relationship or special partnership or whatever we call it now is not that important to the modern Americans who will shape the future of this nation and whose families hail from Mexico or China or Sudan or wherever else.
Having said that, the Prime Minister's message on protectionism is important. And it is significant that there was no applause at all for any part of that passage of his speech. None. Anyone who reports on this speech and misses that fact, misses something vital.
This is the worry for many free trade supporting Americans, and for many outsiders.
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Justin:
The U.S. and Great Britain (U.K) will always have a special relationship....
(**//**)
I have to agreed with Prime Minister Gordon Brown over the protectionism....
~Dennis Junior~
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Justin Webb:
.....And it is significant that there was no applause at all for any part of that passage of his speech. None. Anyone who reports on this speech and misses that fact, misses something vital.....
That is sad, that there were no one (applause) during the speech...
~Dennis Junior~
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It's OK Justin, no-one else is excited either!
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I thought it was a good speech, myself. The only criticism I might give is that he spent most of his time talking to the people to his left, the Republicans. Do you think this is force habit, from the question and answer sessions in Parliament?
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The H-1B visa issue is not new, and from my point of view it's all so much political pandering. I work in an industry (software) that is heavily dependent on foreign talent to fill positions that Americans won't or can't. The new restrictions are just a hassle. However, when push comes to shove, and software companies are clamoring for programmers (especially with the President's mandate to computerize medical records), Congress will fold like a wet cardboard box. The same applies to companies that rely on engineers. We simply can't fill all those positions with American citizens. There just aren't enough of us.
I'll also point out that a good many of the best trained American engineers became Americans after living in the country on H-1B visas. That represents a big win for the U.S.
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"Anyone who reports on this speech and misses that fact, misses something vital."
Yes, Americans have a strong isolationist bent. It is the President's responsibility that that remains in check. The alternative is economic disaster.
Look for American politicians to pay lip service to our isolationist tendencies, but actually act in a way that preserves global trade. There's just too much upside to ignore.
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How about a few lines on Baron Ted Kennedy of Chappaquidiq or how to suck up to the Congress? Sychophancy at its worst. Has GB lost all human respect? This honarary knighthood scrapes the barrel for someone who actively fomented against the UK in N. Ireland.
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Justin, no one is excited about the Brown visit. I certainly wouldn't expect the majority of Ameicans to care one iota about it.
Brown is a spent force struggling to keep his head above water at home. In the US he is simply unknown to most Americans.
The special relationship has not seemed so special recently - just look at the Tony and George show.
We British should feel pleased that Obama has given Gordon even this amount of time. I'm sure he had better things to do, but he knows the value of diplomacy!
Obamas duty as president is to look out for the US economy and the US citizens. Surely this lean towards protecting American jobs is no surprise. There is a big difference between protecting US jobs and "protectionism" in international trade. To fudge the two together is either ignorant or misleading.
The link to the article about H1-B work visas is claptrap. This has nothing to do with free trade, just movement of people. There is no right to immigration.
The only outsiders who are concerned are those foreigners who have spent a small fortune on an MBA thinking it guarantess them a high paid job in America.
The artcle says "The anti-immigrant wave has been duly noted by the mainstream and business press in India, which closely tracked the passage of the H-1B visa restrictions, warning readers that fewer U.S. firms would be able to recruit Indian science, engineering and computer specialists for work in the United States."
Why are the writers of this piece suddenly so concerned for the rights or otherwise of these potential immigrants .... or do they just believe that American graduates are not up to it?
I'm sure the employers in India have also noted that these highly trained an employable Indians will probably return home and may benefit their own economy.
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Trade with out borders? Countries with out borders? One currency used by all with a fixed value! Products made at lowest cost sold to the richer nations. The world freed because every one is working. All of these are pipe dreams.
The fact is for the poor nations to produce and sell they need a rich nation to invest in them, train the people and have a market to sell too. That market has to have income above and beyound the costs of living in that nation or continent.
In the USA, over the past forty years, we have seen home values increase ten to eighteen percent a year, education costs up eight to fifteen percent, fuel fluxuate from $4.50 a gallon to a $1.00 a gallon, insurance both medical and auto gain ten percent a year, electrical rip offs that saw $1,800 a month home bills and factories shutting down bewcause they could make a better/richer profit from selling their power back to the companies, dot com rip offs, banks that never invested a dime and government of both parties with the full idea that as long as the big players paid on time they would look away.
On the cash side we saw from .o8% gain in income to 3.8% gain.
Now, somehow the card pile has toppled because the people at the bottom had to buy food or pay the mortgage payment.
You wonder what happened? It is easy to say. If the people the world needed to consum are not given income to match the inflation in their country, at some time they will have to buy at Wal-Mart and miss mortage payments.
Jobs in America. Jobs that equal the costs in America. If America had those this bubble would not have burst.
Give me three years and I will put America back to work, making money and growing.
The programs now in place will not work. What is needed is a dream and production. In the past Wars have been used, today, the Stars are with in our grasp. Give me three years and America will be booming, with that the rest of the world will start to grow again too.
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"Having said that" has to be one of the most overworked tropes in the American language. Despite, the unequivocal finality of such an extrvagant claim, it's by no means certain that Mexicans and Chinese and Sudanese will be the ultimate arbiters of the shape of America to come - regardless of what becomes of the "special relationship" between the U.S. & U.K. What's far more worrisome of course, is the much more dangerous extra-"special relationship" that exists between the U.S. (officials) and Israel. That's the one that needs to be jettisoned, whether it's by Mexicans and Sudanese (who can't even shape their own future, let alone America's) or whoever. Sadly - and terrifyingly - it's far more likely that Israel and its minions will continue to shape America's future in the forseeable future - Horrible Hillary's remarks in the Jewish State this week underscore that - and that's something to get very excited about!
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Consider yourself forgiven Justin. The only thing exciting about the Brown visit has been the plotting that has been going on at home while he is away!
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For our American friends reading your blog Justin I'd like this gag to cross the pond.
"If you can remember the sixties......you'll be dead soon."
Dripping with British irony, of course, but it might just might cross the pond without coming down mid-Atlantic with a splash.
And it has certainly tickled the funny bone of the Prime Minister's younger rivals in the Commons Tea Room.
I can't imagine though, why they found it quite so funny even though it is a pretty good gag is it not.
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By the way when you get back to blighty Justin you will probably, before too long, have to interview the loveable Health Secretary Alan Johnson. Apparently he is just dieing to talk to you about the exciting breakthroughs that there have been made on eye testing in British schools and how he is going to introduce a new worldwide standard in eye testing called 2020true.
While you have been away Mr Johnson has become a shining example of all that is great in British politics. Many are tipping him as a future Prime Minister but Mr Johnson is far too honest a politician and has ruled himself out of the race.
When you see Mr Johnson in interview Justin please give him my very warmest greetings and tell him that he is a genuinely wonderful human being. There is a lot to be proud of in old blighty. A lot to be proud of indeed.
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I still don't get what all the talk about US Protectionism is all about. Hasn't anyone noticed that the US has no more heavy industry. Our patriot Multinationals have long ago sent the heavy work overseas.
We don't even make shoes or our own military uniforms. They are made in China. Even when the patriotic Right-Wingers wave the flag, it is made in China. Naked WE come in the world and naked We exist in it.
At the end of WWII Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin at Yalta divided up the world and the US was to be the Service Sector and the heavy lifting was to come from Europe and the Recolonized East. Thereby all the infastruture in the US was allowed to rot.
No one noticed but the Unionized Workers but cries of Communism helped shut them down. Then the Industrialist began the economic race to the bottom for the workers. The Middle Managers who decry Unionism soon forgot that the Unions gave them the Weekend and 20 or so holidays and vacation with pay.
No Western nation can go it alone, including Russia. So all that belly aching coming out of DC is so much hot air. We the world East and West are all in the same boat bailing water.
The best we can do is keep the faith and feed the illusion and everything will be alright. Where is Fred and Ginger when you need them?
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How can you trust a man named Brown?
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According to a summary of the speech on www.politics.co.uk, Brown referred to Senator Kennedy as Sir Edward Kennedy. I thought I read somewhere once that honorary knights were not called "Sir," at least if not citizens of the UK. Does anyone know the rule on this?
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I hate to say this but I doubt half the population of the USA knows who Gordon Brown is, and those who do are likely to be ambivalent about his opinion or plans.
Most of us are concerned about our jobs, pension, paying our debt, supporting our families, sending our kids to college, having access to affordable and adequate healthcare, avoiding foreclosure or bankruptcy, and enjoying life in the USA.
Globalization is often perceived as something of interest to politicians and corporate heads, and of little interest to the rest of us as it seldom has a direct impact on our lives.
It was nice for Mr. Brown to drop by, but most of us are more interested in what our leaders have to say than whatever Brown, Merkel, Sarkozy and the rest of that gang have to say. Hope he has a nice trip home.
I apologize for sounding so nasty and insular, but anybody that thinks Mr. Brown's address to Congress is important does not understand the American psyche or our priorities.
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Here is the deal; Free Trade is a mixed bag with both positives and negatives, e.g. the dumping of cheap shrimp and sugar into the US by China and Latin America. Free market capitalism makes international free trade work, as it was a system built around free market capitalist ideals.
The problem we are having is that governments today are struggling to make such a system work with more regulated and government planned economies because of the economic down turn when the trade system was not designed for that purpose.
At what point do such changes in economic and trade policies become protectionism? I really dont know, but I think European powers would be better served by not nagging the American people about Protectionism and trade too much because they risk a good old American style backlash-not that I think PM Brown’s speech was deserving of one mind you.
The majority of Americans welcome international cooperation on trade and speeches like PM Brown’s, but we also dont like to be pestered or being made to feel like we have no choice. America's long history on that subject should be enough to make anyone shudder and proceed with caution.
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Apparently, the honorary knighthood is a matter of some controversy in the UK, from my reading of the British press. Kennedy seems to be a friend of Brown, but knighthoods are bestowed by the Queen. As an American, I do not know the nuances of British politics, so perhaps someone in the know can explain this point. Must the Queen knight anyone at the request of the PM or does she have some discretion in the matter? If she does not, then is there any check on the honour being used for purely political purposes?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Apparently, the Kennedy knighthood is not the first controversial one:
Satan knighted
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As a Brit living Spain, I am sorry to say that Britain has not much to offer the USA and there is not much Obama can do for Britain. It is mainly a P.R.exercise.
However, not o be too negative lot of Brits and other Europeans are only to happy to be friends with America just provided you can resists the temptation to tell us what to do. We promise to return the compliment.
And, we will not even mention the Middle East.
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The sky is falling! The chicken little warnings from the media and political elites about the horrors of "protectionism" is rather pathetic. Gordon Brown (from the BBC): Neither nation should "succumb" to protectionism "which protects no-one", but "seize the moment", he said. Echoes of former President Bush.
The economic sage, Mr. Webb's linked post (This is the worry) insinuates that American and British workers should not get to glum that they will be passed over for employment by H1B visa holders, who will work for a lower wage, (BBC anchors and correspondents need not worry, H1B visas will not affect your employment.)
For every voice that says their are not enough skilled American or British workers to fill these high-tech jobs, the American CNN and radio host Lou Dobbs profiles weekly American workers who are forced to train their new H1B visa replacement worker. Asked why they are being replaced? The answer is the same. They will work for less, with fewer benefits.
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As an American, I find the continuing relationship with the UK as extremely valuable and important. The UK, unlike Mexico, China, and Russia, is a stable ally with moral standards similar to those of Americans (not necessarily American politicians, though). I welcomed Mr. Brown's visit to the US, and I think that it should be made clear that the UK will always be America's #1 ally. As for the fact that he got no applause, that's sad. He really deserved it. I don't see how the economic crisis is his fault at all, as it was mainly Bush's lack of oversight that caused it...
As for the protectionist policies being adopted, I welcome them greatly. It's time that America begins to stop giving all of our resources and money to other nations, and begin to focus on us for a change. Losing jobs and industries to countries overseas has been, in my opinion, the main cause of America's diminishing influence over the last 40 years. I'm not saying that we should completely isolate ourselves, but we need to begin helping ourselves again for once. And other countries should realize that the US government has an obligation to its citizens to provide and protect their jobs and make sure that America continues to grow and prosper. And America CAN'T grow and prosper if we continue to give all of our industrial resources overseas.
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The "special relationship" is I think a myth we allow Britain to indulge itself in because it makes it feel good. It doesn't really exist and never did. What has Britain ever done for America? We threw the "blighters" out 233 years ago, we fought with them a few years later again, it was all they could do not to meddle in our Civil war, and then we bailed them out of two world wars they were losing, rebuilt their shatted economy, and fought the cold war to save them yet again. Seems to me that relationship is strictly one way. If there's anything special about it, it's that after all this we still talk to them at all. About a half hour at a time is all President Obama could stand evidently.
America will never accept a "one world government" existance. This kind of foolish talk will not get the kind of hoots and jeers Brown gets every time from "the party opposite" in his zoo of a Parliament but it won't be taken seriously either.
I think many Americans are ready for some protectionism. America has given away tens of millions of jobs, entire industries, military protection, one way unfair trade arrangements to others advantage for decades without even gratitude for it in return. Now America needs to help itself. We have a saying here that charity begins at home. It's time for us to give to ourselves and let the rest of the world fend for itself for awhile. If it does not recover, it will not be able to help anyone else much longer anyway. That the Smoot-Hawley tarriff act had anything to do with creating the depression or exascerbating it in the 1930s is a myth that big business has promulgated to allow it to continue to work around worker rights and environmental protections won here at home but there isn't a shred of truth in it. The depression was due entirely to the same kind of financial mismanagement by financial institutions that created the current depression. The American people are in no mood to have their government spend trillions of dollars ostensibly to get America's economy recover only to see the effect of it going overseas to create jobs and wealth elsewhere while its own economy and workers continue to suffer. So Mister Brown, glad you could come, write us a postcard sometime, but no thanks, we're not buying what you are selling. Take it to Brussels or Beijing but don't bring it around here again.
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Hello Ed: The noble has returned briefly from "blogtirement" to wonder why you have not yet entered this space to comment about your fellow-Scot's visit to see his and your idol President Obama. And of course, given my innate curiousity, I am wondering how you feel about the first disastrous six weeks of the new administration. I recall your slavish support of our new President during the campaign and whether, together with many of those who voted for him, you regret such lavish praise.
By the way, have you ever wondered if the noble, now 87, is still on this mortal coil? Tom Brokaw did not call us"The Greatest Generation" for nothing!
I await your erudite response.
PS: I thought Brown spoke well, and I kind of like him.
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Ref. 17
"I apologize for sounding so nasty and insular, but anybody that thinks Mr. Brown's address to Congress is important does not understand the American psyche or our priorities."
I think you're correct up to this paragraph. While I agree that most Americans aren't terribly interested, I don't think the Prime Minister was talking to the American people any, rather to their legislature and military (the Joint Chiefs were in attendance). Mr. Brown's speech was a proposal and an indication of the U.K.'s preference for how to proceed in these tough times. If Mr. Brown can show to the rest of the E.U. that he has influence in Washington (which he does), the U.K. could take the de facto lead on matters important to the E.U. (which would be good for the U.K. -- and the E.U. for that matter -- in my opinion).
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Not a big draw, it seems...
The marigold effect;-)
ed
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"the truth is that the special relationship or special partnership or whatever we call it now is not that important to the modern Americans who will shape the future of this nation and whose families hail from Mexico or China or Sudan or wherever else."
And just how do you figure this? I have had it with British news reporters consining the special "relationship/partnership" to the dustbin of history over the past few days just because (O dear God!!) the US president's overriding consern is...the American people!! Well this is just praposterous! He can't possibly care about the American people over the British, or indeed the world's! That is not why he was elected!!
Even if (and of course this will never happen,) but even if all future presidents and prime ministers never ever get along and never share one thing in common ever ever again, I think the relationship would still be "special" simply because of the cultural, social, historical, language, and legal ties that bind us together.
Any "journalists" ever consider that when damning the United States as a slave master whipping its little slave the UK when it misbehaves?
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21, Gary_A_Hill -
I wonder if the Tory Spokesperson for Idiocy shares an office with the Minister for Silly Walks.
I don't know why everyone is so critical of Gordon Brown. I think he's kinda cute. But then I get all wobbly-kneed about Scotsmen, even with the public school accent instead of a brogue.
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"there was no applause at all for any part of that passage of his speech. None."
Nevertheless, The Times assures us that Congress gave him nineteen standing ovations.
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ref. 23
"For every voice that says their are not enough skilled American or British workers to fill these high-tech jobs, the American CNN and radio host Lou Dobbs profiles weekly American workers who are forced to train their new H1B visa replacement worker."
I know more about it than Lou Dobbs. He's journalist. I'm a developer. Have been for 17 years. In this case I know he's doing a lousy job of reporting.
We must have H-1B workers. There are not enough experienced developers in this country. We lost a a surprising number of what we had during the dot bomb crisis. They just decided they'd had enough and changed careers. It's not a career people return to. It can be very frustrating. We've been struggling to replace them ever since.
Experienced programmers have it good in this country, even in this economy. When we have a job opening at my company, we get all kinds of resumes, but the vast majority simply don't have the skills. The one's that do make some pretty good coin, and they have no problem getting jobs. None of my former colleagues are out of work right now.
The quality of the code is directly proportional to the skills of the developer. Code written by people who aren't on top of their games doesn't work very well (if at all).
It is possible that people may need to relocate. Come to Denver. Denver's programming community is humming along.
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Ref. 10
"What's far more worrisome of course, is the much more dangerous extra-"special relationship" that exists between the U.S. (officials) and Israel. That's the one that needs to be jettisoned, whether it's by Mexicans and Sudanese (who can't even shape their own future, let alone America's) or whoever."
Huh?
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Ref. 31
"Nevertheless, The Times assures us that Congress gave him nineteen standing ovations."
I think he actually wanted it to stop. It seemed to interrupt his cadence.
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Ref. 13
Post number 13 was brought to you by the Alan Johnson for Prime Minister Campaign! ; )
Does Justin have that kind of clout in the U.K.? I like his reporting style, so I wouldn't be surprised. Just curious.
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Gordon who?
"Nevertheless, The Times assures us that Congress gave him nineteen standing ovations."
They'd do that for a ham sandwich if it was a foreign dignitary.....or a poodle. That is their way of being polite. Not the House of Commons at hootin' and hollerin' at the Prime Minister's phoney questions time. He should relish those moments. He won't get that back home...even from his own party. "Awda Awda, we'd all like to hear what the Prime Minister Has to say. Mister Prime Minister..." "I refer my right honorable friend to the reply I gave some moments ago." "Now wasn't hearing that important enlightening message from the Prime Minister worth being silent for a few seconds?"
Betty Boothroyd could have made it big on Broadway...as an understudy stand-in for Ethel Merman.
Next....So who will be the next one we pretend to listen to when they lecture us, Sarkrazy or Angel Eyes?
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#26. nobleFloridian: "I am wondering how you feel about the first disastrous six weeks of the new administration."
Like Beauty, Disaster is in the eye of the beholder. If the former occupant of The White House had not made such a mess of things, we would all have been the better for it.
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Justin,
I just saw your report. You mentioned the lack applause on the anti-protectionist message, but I wouldn't say you emphasized it. Why didn't you go with that angle?
I guess we'll never know.
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... Looking like an AndyPost monologue ...
I would welcome Mr. Brown to my home most any time. The UK is a long standing ally against fascism and Marxism. I think the later is the rub for the US president.
AndyPost, I too am an experienced and skilled systems architect and developer - industrial automation and e-commerce. I watched the H1B program used to purge entire American departments with several of my large clients. I have also worked with some very capable H1B developers that implement a design beautifully. H1B is a two edged sword.
I would rather see Ted drawn and quartered than knighted. I am old enough to remember that his Oldsmobile did not float. ("negligent", "homicide" that pretty much sums him up). Read your, "Paul M. Johnson", "A History of the American People" for a better (documented with valid references) understanding of Ted's family.
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Re #37
"10 million flies can't be wrong"
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#25. MarcusAureliusII: "What has Britain ever done for America?"
Is that really a serious question? Carolinlady suggested I was pompous, but your inquiry certainly fits the dictionary definition: affectedly and irritatingly grand, solemn, or self-important : a pompous ass who pretends he knows everything.
"This kind of foolish talk will not get the kind of hoots and jeers Brown gets every time from "the party opposite" in his zoo of a Parliament but it won't be taken seriously either."
At least there is robust debate in the Mother of Parliaments, something sadly lacking in American legislatures. If Churchill, Wilson, Thatcher et al could cut the mustard there, what's your beef? Westminster is not simply the Abbey or the Cathedral where decorum is expected 24/7.
By the way, use your spell-check: shatted, existance, tarriff, exascerbating.
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#36. MarcusAureliusII: "Betty Boothroyd could have made it big on Broadway...as an understudy stand-in for Ethel Merman."
You're showing your age - the last time Merman was on Broadway was 1977.
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#40. neil_a2: "10 million flies can't be wrong"
Indeed, flies go to honey rather than vinegar!
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As someone who spent most of his career as
a software engineer, I have to say that I never
felt threatened in any way by the H1-B crowd.
Many of them, especially the ones from India,
start their own new companies, creating
many more new jobs than they take.
This is notwithstanding that HP and other
companies regularly import workers and treat
them as virtual prisoners (because they cannot
seek employment elsewhere), and attempt to
transfer skills to them from US-born employees.
The answer for me has been to simply not
work for these large multinationals. They're
a great place to start a career, but a lousy
place to end one.
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BTW, this Brown fellow seems to be a lot smarter
than the dullards which inhabit our Congress,
perhaps we could find a place for him there
(on the right side of the aisle) after you Brits
are done with him.
At the very least, we could give him his own
talk show.
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I'm watching Brown's speech now on C-Span.
Pelosi still looks like an idiot.
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8. At 7:40pm on 04 Mar 2009, RomeStu wrote:
"Why are the writers of this piece suddenly so concerned for the rights or otherwise of these potential immigrants .... or do they just believe that American graduates are not up to it"?
I just picked this little part of your comment but in short, I agree with all of it. Why does America get slammed all of the time for wanting to put it's citizens first? That's what I got from this article. Again, America has done something wrong. Believe me, I have been extremely critical of many of our policies but, I have to agree with giving Americans jobs right now. There is no guarantee that if you are from India and you graduate from Harvard you're going to get a job in U.S. Just like if I applied for citizenship or a work permit to Great Britain I would probably not get it right now; or ever. It's just luck of the draw. It seems as if globally, or I know for sure; in the United States people think society owes them something like work or whatever. However, life doesn’t work like that.
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24 pro-democrat
"I don't see how the economic crisis is his (Brown's) fault at all, as it was mainly Bush's lack of oversight that caused it..."
Now anyone who reads this regularly knows I am no defender of Bush, but you do him an injustice here.
Also you give Brown too much credit.
No one single handedly caused the crisis, but responsability must ultimately rest in the lap of the overseer.
Brown was Chancellor of the Exchequer for 10 years, constantly pandering to the banks and "big business" to keep the good times rolling for Britain / London.
He sold off half (approx) the UK gold reserves when gold was at it's lowest price.
He and his people failed to spot and regulate the increasingly risky strategies of major banks and financial trading companies.
Therefore I think we can probably lay more of the blame on Brown than Bush. At least Brown claims to have a finance background!
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19, 21 Gary
re Ted Kennedy Knighthood.
Firstly the Queen does not get to choose her knights and Dames - it is a list drawn up by the PM and an honours committee twice a year (Birthday Honours and New Year Honours).
This is also the case for the majority of other honours (OBE, MBE, etc etc).
This political honours-giving is what got Labour into trouble last year over the "cash for honours" party donation scandal.
The exception is the Order of the Garter (24 people only at one time) who are chosen by the Queen personally, and I believe the Order of the Thistle in Scotland is the same.
Secondly, my understanding of Knighthoods for foreign nations is that they may use their title (Sir / Lady) when in the UK, but not abroad. (cf Harrison Ford/Jack Ryan in Patriot Games!)
The Kennedy Knighthood is a disgrace.
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Well done Justin for calling it as you see it !!
The sight of Brown grovelling to get some attention from Obama and hoping to catch some of his pizzazz reminds me of a Garfield cartoon where the tubby ginger cool cat has wrapped himself in books and is thinking..
"I'm learning by osmosis !.."
In real life, it is a bit more difficult than that.
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#15
"How can you trust a man named Brown?"
Actually, that's pretty insulting to all the trustworthy people who bear the name Brown. My partner's surname is brown and he is very trustworthy. I would imagine the other people named 'Brown' probably feel pretty embarrassed to have the same name as this guy.
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#179 Andy post.
O yes I am Welsh.Look up,
Cambridge American Cemetery & Memorial.
My 191 post was from the heart.....
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#45
I suspect we'd pass him over to you without a fight. But it does worry me that if your politicians in congress are duller than Brown...
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#42
If you're going to criticise someone's spelling then at least do it correctly.
Existence.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/existence?qsrc=2888
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35 AndyPost wrote:
Ref. 13
"Post number 13 was brought to you by the Alan Johnson for Prime Minister Campaign! ; )
Does Justin have that kind of clout in the U.K.? I like his reporting style, so I wouldn't be surprised. Just curious."
No. No-one in the meedja here does, however much journalists would like to think so. We are a very cynical, sceptical, bunch over here. Too much so, sometimes, I think.
But John Humphries on the Today programme, or Jeremy Paxman on Newsnight can make a politician look particularly stupid and wreck their chances sometimes.
There's a lot of angling going on, as usual, but it's still at least a year before an election, and that is a very long time in politics.
A lot, I think, will depend on how the G20 in London goes and whether we can see a way out of this mess afterwards.
(And if Congress's silence on one issue is a guide, Obama could find 19 other PM's and presidents listen to him without applauding too, since GB has pretty well organised a consensus between them on that.)
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Justin
Having just read your first link one thing appears to have been forgotten. This is that President Obama is Head of State and Her Majesties Prime Minister is not.
When the Queen of England visits Washington she get the full treatment as Head of State as indeed will President Sarkozy of France I presume.
I am still baffled as to the point of this visit which if anything has shown up how times have changed for both the USA and Great Britain since Sir Winston Churchill time.
To me, the whole thing had about as much relevance and sincerity as an old school or college reunion 30 years on.
We all, like it or not, have to give up the past so that we to live today and for the future.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Of my American friends I've spoken to about this, about two thirds of them weren't aware Gordon had even visited, while the rest believe their politeness is just the penance they have to pay for lumbering the world with Bush for 8 years.
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Ref 26, nobleFloridian
"I am wondering how you feel about the first disastrous six weeks of the new administration."
I feel great! I think the Obama Administration has done more in six weeks to reverse the wreckless domestic and foreign policies of the Bush Administration than could be reasonably expected from anyone. Admittedly, it will take a bit longer to correct all the waste and corruption, mitigate the effects of fearmongering, and the erosion of our constitutional and civil rights - not to mention the economic mess created by 8 years of borrow and spend, but President Obama is doing just fine.
President Obama deserves credit for what he has achieved thus far, regardless of what Rush Limbaugh and the KKK may say to the contrary. Let's face it, the opinion of self prescribed war presidents, deceivers, drug addicts, and/or ideologues is meaningless as it seldom contributes to the welfare and security of our country.
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My Noble Friend, Namaste
First of all, my sincere congratulations on your persistence in remaining among the living! It's good to hear from you.You'll note that I had already posted my 28 before your 26 cleared customs....As to disappointment, I have little to report, except for the degree our new POTUS seems inclined to fix a problem of over-indulgence (debt and consumption) with yet more of the same...
As to the shibboleth of knee-jerk anti-protectionism, I submit these thoughts on the need for a degree of sensible protectionism for our neighbourhoods....The corporate wolves, of course, are howling the loudest that drawing together with family, friends and neighbours for mutual defence is to be discouraged, but they would, wouldn't they?...
Peruse and let me know your thoughts.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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# 16 Gary Hill
Anyone can become a Sir, Lord, Knighted etc all you need to do is provide our very own Liebour government with enough £ sorry $$ would be better with the current state of stirling, you'll be in the house of lords quick as a flash, then you can make all the money back by receiving bribes to get the various non important laws through the lords.
I just love the way our democracy works and to think we go around the world preaching to others!
Sorry rant over, it's just with Broon visiting you in the states no one there really cares but here we have to suffer his face all over tv and most of us would like to forget him quite frankly!
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Bere (30) RomeStu (48),
Broon wouldn't like his accent described as "public school" - he's a Grammar School product, trying to de-Scot his accent to "pass" doon South. He, as much as anyone else (with the exception of the Gramms) has led the way in accelerating de-regulation begun by Reagan and Thatcher. The British banks were freed of many encumbrances, and this led to all the big American banks (retail/wholesale and brokerages) establishing major operations in London in order to remain 'competitive' and take advantage of the "frontier" freedoms.
Britain (Brown and Co.) loved being the second biggest financial centre in the world, and has probably leads the world in the proportion of its economy based upon financial "services".
Broon has consistently crowed that "we are best placed" to weather the storm, but he is getting pretty lonely in that school of thought. The majority opinion is that wer are "worst placed" of the "developed" economies. Check out the opinion of the World Bank, for example...
Brown was the longest serving Finance Minister until he became the (unelected) Prime Minister, and anyone familiar with the situation knows he remains the puppeteer working the controls. He has thus a longer "track record" in the creation of the bubble, but still seems incapable of admitting even a tiny mistake.
I could go on...............
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sud0hnim (53),
With every year that passes, my estimation of my own intelligence declines, but even though I accept that I'm not, nor ever was, as clever as I used to believe, I'm alarmed to find I'm still smarter than the bulk of our leaders.I hope I'm right in counting Obama as an exception to the general dullness...there are others, notably our Vince Cable and a few others who all share a great unlikelihood of ever achieving real power or influence...;-(
ed
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# 54 sud0hnim wrote:
[To David Cunard]
"#42
If you're going to criticise someone's spelling then at least do it correctly.
Existence."
1 I think you meant to refer to #41, not #42
2 You appear not to have noticed that the 4 words David listed - "shatted, existance, tarriff, exascerbating" - were examples of bad spelling, not corrections.
3 If you're going to criticise someone's criticism, then at least do it correctly.
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It seems a bit late for me to jump in if we're already down to spelling corrections...but here goes.
Americans do have a long-standing isolationist streak -- the Don't Tread On Me, rugged individualist tradition. Most of us honor that in principle rather than in practice. We'd be absolutely lost without all our foreign-made communication devices, shoes, clothes, toys, cars, tvs, computers and such.
So, given the givens...international trade will continue to flow and Americans will continue to bluster a la Limbaugh. Don't sweat, Europe. He's very entertaining in small doses.
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Most of the companies listed as looking for harvard grads,would be bankrupt by now in a "free" market.
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62, Ed -
Gentle rebuke accepted. My first impressions of G. Brown were implanted when he was palling around with G. Bush, and next to Bush anyone would appear to be majestic, well-spoken, of stellar intelligence, and . . . well, of stellar intelligence.
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Free Trade? Occupy, Resist, Produce
Free trade? Menem's Miracle was the "American approved" solution, which led to total collapse...;-)
ed
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64, john-In-Dublin -
Love it!
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What a shame politics can damage a personable man such as Gordan Brown.The expectations were on a descend within a few paragraphs,the same song and the same song.Was this Brown or Blair?We in America would prefer the quality of products this country and I'm sure England as well,is more than capable of producing.Isn't it a human rights violation to place on the people of China to make everything that the world uses?Where is the balance? Can we afford to import vehicles made in China? Can the brotherhood be lost Mr.Brown?
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Read the Text of Brown's speech, and it seemed flat. Lots of old homilies and cultural cliches, but no real meat. Applause 19 times? It must have been the delivery, not the content. Maybe it wasn't as bad as it looks. Have to re-read it.
On banning non-US citizens from employment: The Hugenots enriched every land where they settled in exile.
17 St. D " if half ..." There are times when you would be convinced that half of Americans couldn't name their own congressman. If half of them could name the Prime Minister (of the UK, Canada, Australia, NZ or anywhere else) that would be quite remarkable.
10 Douglas makes a fundamentally sound point. Uncritical American support of Israel does not reflect the actual interests of the United States, and is long, long overdue for a critical re-appraisal.
America should support friendly democracies, including Israel, but not so blindly and stupidly that the American public ends up subsidizing, and being held hostage to, and having its troops put in harm's way because of, the pandering to religious splinter parties and their dangerous, irresponsible behaviour that is the stuff of building and juggling governing coalitions in the Israeli Parliament. America needs to find some spine, and serve up some tough love here.
24. ProDem
"... the UK will always be America's # 1 ally ..."
Not sure where that places Canada. The US and Canada only share a 4500 mile border, and C$ 2B (and sinking like a stone) in two way trade every day.
As for your embrace of protectionism, perhaps it is time for a return to first principles.
Individuals engage in trade because both parties to a trade believe that the exchange leaves them better off than they were before. This is readily observable in human behaviour, and has been since the start of human history. It is a fundamental postulate of economics, and it reflects both observed history and morality.
Many years ago Adam Smith (a Scotsman, note) observed that with the right glazing, and at a high enough cost, it would be possible to grow bananas in Edinburgh.
Similarly, rather than "importing" pineapples, say, from Hawaii to Vermont, with suitable glazing they could be grown in Vermont, and employ Vermonters to that end. Similarly, at sufficient expense, with large cooling systems, Hawaiians need not go skiing in Vermont (or Colorado, or Wyoming, or Idaho) but could build an indoor ski hill with artificial snow. The same facility might be used to grow pine, spruce, and balsam fir trees, so that Hawaii need not import Christmas trees. This would, no doubt, employ many Hawaiians. Similarly, why go all the way to Florida to see tropical marine life, when we could build artificial beaches in Idaho, and, with sufficient heating and hydraulic equipment, have a tropical beach with warm turquoise waters and surf just outside Boise. That would, no doubt "save" or perhaps "create" jobs in Idaho.
Of course, the amount of effort required to have a coral reef in Idaho, or a fir tree plantation in Hawaii might leave little by way of economic resources left over to do other things, like buying corn or apples of handbags, or bicycles, but leave that aside.
Why do we not do these things? Well, because people and industries have particular skills and advantages that make it better to trade the things we are good at making or doing for the goods or services that others are good at making or providing. Why? For the very same reason that our neolithic ancestors traded three goats and a pig in return for a cow and six bushels of straw: In this way we are all better off.
It doesn't matter if the trade is between Maine and Missouri, or New York and Norway. The principle is the same. Protectionism is a false God that only makes everybody worse off - a classic example of "beggar thy neighbour" or cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Do you really want all the laid off autoworkers in Ontario not to go to Disney World in Florida? Do you really want Chinese airlines to stop buying Boeing aircraft?
25. MAII
Well, clearly Alf Landon is alive and well.
With regard to Smoot Hawley, please read the lengthy article published in the Economist just before Christmas. Smoot Hawley undoubtedly made the Depression needlessly worse.
As for what the British have done for America, well, where do you start? It gave America the political and economic thinking on which the Republic was founded, and the international military security that it took for granted (and for which America did not want to pay). It gave America a culture of law and trade that has been America's great shield and buckler ever since.
A hundred years later Britain financed America's transformation from a predominantly rural economy to the world's industrial leviathan. Who do you think paid for the glorious roadbed of the PRR mainline (and a remarkable proportion of America's industrial plant, generally)?
Whose navy do you think made the Monroe doctrine work?
Stop reading potted histories. If you read more broadly and deeply you will be much rewarded by it.
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Re: 13While you have been away Mr Johnson has become a shining example of all that is great in British politics. Many are tipping him as a future Prime Minister but Mr Johnson is far too honest a politician and has ruled himself out of the race.
Not sure whether you are being ironic here. If not, please remember that Alan Johnson is the politician who caved into the unions over public sector pensions. In doing so he landed not just this generation but the next and the one after that with massive liabilities. Meanwhile the rest of us have been told we have to work until we are 67 - if we can find a job that is.
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It has nothing to do about British- American relations we do fine getting along as individuals and people to people.
Its not about protectionism, its about bringing the multinationals under a scheme of regulation so that these global carpetbaggers do not plunder the economies of the world to the detriment of nations and their people . Ike was right" beware of the military industrial complex "
The mess we are in was caused by unfettered greed , manipulation and power that reaches beyond national borders and manipulates the laws of each sovereign nation to look the other way while they plunder .
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71, Interested -
Most of what you say about protectionism is true, but what about the products we can reasonably make here, used to make here, but were outsourced in order to make them very cheaply, and now they're crap? I would rather pay more for an item that is going to last a long time than pay less for something that is going to fall apart or simply stop working after about a year (Levis jeans made who knows where; milkhouse heater made in China, for just a couple of examples).
Clothing can be manufactured anywhere, unlike pineapples or ski resorts. But because people want more and more clothing at lower and lower prices and the companies want higher and higher profits, it can't be done in the U.S. anymore. And now a pair of Levis is made of thin, shoddy denim and wears out pretty quickly.
My wanting a decent pair of Levis (which I am willing to pay more for) has nothing to do with spiting anyone. Moving manufacturing overseas really has very little to do with an equitable trade system but everything to do with higher profits at the expense of any semblance of quality - and equality.
However, this does not apply to cars at all, which is a whole 'nother thing altogether. Once in my life I bought an American car, many years ago, and will never do so again.
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For those who haven't yet had the time to watch the film linked in #68, I'll just note that it's thanks to the Canadian Broadcasting Co. that we have such an uplifting gem.
Thanks Canucks!
ed
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Your observations are frightening. On the first link, why would Obama snub an ally while opening talks with enemies (at least for show). There is nothing wrong with talking to enemies, but why snub friends?
It makes one wonder about how much Obama's rhetoric can be trusted.
The world is looking to America to lead the way out of the recession; if it leads the way back to protectionism the economic recovery will never happen and we will all have a repeat of the last depression. The United States cannot expect to sell Boeing airplanes and General Electric windmills and nuclear power plants in other nations if it adopts protectionism and isolationism.
I am shocked, having taken Obama at his word. Now I am terrified at the potential consequences. Hopefully, Obama's future actions will match his original rhetoric about avoiding protectionism.
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Sorry to interrupt but this is really quite funny.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7925671.stm
I hope the Secret service do better at identifying suspicious activity.
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73. At 3:44pm on 05 Mar 2009, lawchicago wrote:
It has nothing to do about British- American relations we do fine getting along as individuals and people to people.
Its not about protectionism, its about bringing the multinationals under a scheme of regulation so that these global carpetbaggers do not plunder the economies of the world to the detriment of nations and their people . Ike was right" beware of the military industrial complex "
The mess we are in was caused by unfettered greed , manipulation and power that reaches beyond national borders and manipulates the laws of each sovereign nation to look the other way while they plunder .
WELL SAID.
I say start spending all that money on little company no stuff companies on individual businesses.
Let the big boys suffer .
They claimed the big rewards, in error. Fine them.
As for banking screw them.
Buy up the biggest deal around (take their high street /main street branches and build something like the Post office bank that is not really there any more(oh more privatisation there Rob not unionism).
Create a national bank that if well regulated.
everyone complains about the Gov this the Gov that they can't organise a upward expression in a brewery"etc.
but then at the moment where is it safest. TREASURY BONDS, many say.
So with a national bank ( with branches everywhere ) the private banks would be forced to do something right.
better. not get away with what they want.
bit like healthcare in the UK. Because of the NHS private companies have to try to attract people. By being competitive.
All these variable rates that skyrocketed would be under control if it were not for them greedy folk.
Viva la evolution
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as for congress being filled with duller people ,
At least parliament CAN be lively. Congress is dead.
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guns (#46), that's a popular sentiment about Pelosi from those who dislike (or hate) her, but the underlying reason Republcans don't like her is that she is effective.
Pelosi did not get to be the most powerful woman in American politics ever on her looks; she got there by being good at politics.
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Ref. 19
"... Looking like an AndyPost monologue ..."
Yeah, I been thinking I need to get a life.
"AndyPost, I too am an experienced and skilled systems architect and developer - industrial automation and e-commerce. I watched the H1B program used to purge entire American departments with several of my large clients. I have also worked with some very capable H1B developers that implement a design beautifully. H1B is a two edged sword."
It might surprise you but I don't have any problem with this.
We do have jobs out here (in Denver) if you're looking. I'm not saying there isn't competition mind you.
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#5.4 sud0hnim - see #64, john-In-Dublin, who understood the post. MAII is always so correct, one would expect his spelling to be likewise.
#65. carolinalady: " . . . Limbaugh. Don't sweat, Europe. He's very entertaining in small doses."
As are the Fox "commentators" Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity. The latter can be rabid but in this household the former is known as The Joker - he provides a good laugh.
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"Read the Text of Brown's speech, and it seemed flat. Lots of old homilies and cultural cliches, but no real meat. Applause 19 times? It must have been the delivery, not the content. Maybe it wasn't as bad as it looks."
That's what was so good about it. Once upon a time
there was a science fiction story written in the
Soviet Union about an inventor who created a machine
which printed out every intelligent comment that
it heard.
The politicians couldn't figure out why it didn't
work...
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"Protectionism" is just a word, and one which puts a negative spin on certain trade policies without getting to the substance of the issue. Similarly, "free trade" is a term which puts a positive spin on other policies (who's against freedom?).
I'm not for free trade, I'm for fairtrade. If free trade isn't fair in some particular situation, why should I be for it? I'm not concerned about our trading relationships with Canada and the EU, but about those with China. If China doesn't play by the same rules, and with the same constraints, as the western democracies, and if their practices hurt the US (and others), why should we not protect ourselves?
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Ed 68 great film.
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76, Star_Trekker, perhaps you did not see Obama's
interview with Matt Laurer. When Matt asked him
about protectionism, Obama replied, "I don't
think that we should worry about it for now."
Meaning, of course, that he would pursue it later.
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Star_Trekker (#76), frightening? terrified?
This is over the top. You've apparently been watching too much sci-fi fantasy.
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@59: "...not to mention the economic mess created by 8 years of borrow and spend, ..."
The Democrat party controlled the Federal budget from the end of WWII to 1993. You will recall that during the 1980s they repeatedly (and with great glee) called Reagan's budgets "dead on arrival" and substituted their own. With Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid unfunded obligations totalling about 43 TRILLION dollars that have to be found somewhere, over and above the 12 trillion that's the "recorded" debt, exactly WHO has been irresponsible with our tax dollars??
You can certainly chastise Bush for not managing the budget correctly while in office, and you can certainly chastise the Republican Congress for their irresponsibility from 1993-2007. I will point out that the Republicans did at least try to get a Balanced Budget Amendment to the states; the Democrats fought that tooth and nail, with Robert Byrd leading the charge ("We can't do this becuase we can't estimate well enough..."). What rot.
Your unwillingness, however, to hold the Democrats firmly responsible for their MAJORITY contribution to the disgraceful state of the Federal debt discredits your arguments.
@26, @59: Both of you are making the same mistake that most other folks make: you are focusing on the President, when your attention, mine, and that of the rest of Americans needs to be locked implacably on the Congress. I say "implacably" because that's the LAST place that the Congress wants your attention, and they will do whatever they can to distract you or redirect you.
If you want change, DON'T pay attention to Obama; heat your Congressperson to white heat, and keep them there.
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80, Gary, what you say is true... I have some very
fundamental disagreements with Pelosi, Reid,
and the other Democratic leadership.
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bere54 (#74), Levi's are no longer made in the US or Canada, it seems:
http://www.globalpolicy.org/globaliz/special/2003/1019levisleaves.htm
I never wore Levi's anyway, but I have recently switched to Bills Khakis, made in USA.
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Saint No. 59: I came back just to say hello to my hirsute friend Ed, but cannot refrain from asking you what the heck do you think the gargantuan Stimulus Package is but borrow and spend. Loaded with pork, this obscenity will saddle future generations with a debt that boggles the mind. And please remember that the Democrats controlled Senate and House for more than 2 years of the Bush administration. Spending bills do not pass without the approval of Congress. And now we have another monstrous bill to consider, the Omnibus Bill that includes yet more pork, 60% of which was inserted by Democrats and, to their shame, 40% by Republicans.
Obama's "Change" was supposed to include the abolishment of pork - the smell emanating from these two bills must be overwhelming in the Oval Office and in the Halls of Congress.
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IF #71
Rediculous rubbish, all of it. Brits like to take credit for what America invented itself to be and become but for that matter why not give credit to Greece, the Bible, or one celled amoeba 3 billion years ago without which it wouldn't have been possible either. If Britain was so smart, why didn't it invent America itself first? Why didn't it become America? Like the rest of Europe, Britain is mostly all talk and no action.
Britain protected its colonies, not America. After the Revolution, another war, the War of 1812 was fought with Britain. The Monroe Doctrine was passed to keep Britain and other European powers out of the Western Hemisphere.
I don't know who financed the industrial revolution in the US. I assume it was financed by entrepreneurs like Rockerfeller, Carnegie, Mellon, Vanderbuilt, Gould. If they borrowed money from Europe, it was paid back with interest at the going rate. Except for the French helping defeat the British in the Revolution for their own ends, Europe GAVE nothing to America ever. From the looks of Afghanistan, we can't even count on them fulfilling their legal obligations in a cooperative effort in their own behalf. Only Britain of all other NATO countries is pulling its fair share of the weight and Canada is looking for an excuse to get out. Hardly worthy allies at all, forget benefactors.
Smoot Hawley may have hurt other countries, it did not hurt the US. It kept the benefits of investment that created jobs in America. That's what we want and need now more than ever. I don't think Americans will sit still for it if it is otherwise. Unlike Europeans, when Americans are unhappy with the way their government is run, they have recourse...and they use it.
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Noble,
Pork BBQ actually smells delicious! Yummmm!
Worse than borrow-and-spend, the Bank of England today announced the creation of up to 75,000,000,000 brand new Pounds Sterling out of thin air. These are to be used to buy our own debt....so we can pay ourselves back with monopoly money.
The last time this happened was in the 1970s, and it led to tremendous inflation. Of course, it suited "the West" then, because we could use the devalued currency to pay for OPEC's raised prices, but OPEC preferred gold, so we had to drop the $35 ounce.....now it's around $950, and headed up, I reckon.....
Wheeeeee!
ed
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Republicans, Libertarians, and others of a similar bent (#88, #91) love to trash Obama and the Democrats, but the fact is that two-thirds of Americans think that Obama is doing a good job.
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Ref 91, Noble
"...the gargantuan Stimulus Package is but borrow and spend. Loaded with pork, this obscenity will saddle future generations with a debt that boggles the mind..."
Unfortunately, the gargantuan mess that President Obama inherited from his predecessor requires considerable investment to solve, but unlike the $1 trillion spent in Iraq this investment will be at home and will help the middle class (tax cuts), improve our infrastructure, and create jobs destroyed by the neglect and ineptitude of the Bush Administration.
If we are going to borrow and spend, I rather do it on things that benefit the American people rather than crusades and profits for a few corporations.
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90, Gary_A_Hill -
I'd known that Levi's are no longer made here; that's my beef. I've been wearing men's Levi's 505s since I was a teenager (I wear men's jeans because I have always had the shape of a teenage boy rather than that of a grown woman). It used to be I could go into any store, pick up a pair in my size without trying them on, make sure the seams were straight (they always had a problem with those seams), buy them, take them home, pull off the tags, throw them into the wash, and know they would fit when first I wore them.
Then as of a few years ago, as your link shows, even the red tags were made overseas, and since then not only has the quality waned, but the marked sizes mean nothing. I am still the same size but I have to try on several pairs of jeans to find a pair that fits. Two pairs of 505s marked with the same size can actually be completely different. And I really hate trying on clothes.
This probably sounds very trivial, but the demise of the Levi brand represents to me all the foolishness of eliminating manufacturing in this country. Something that could always be relied on simply has no standard anymore. It's become a crap product. And I haven't yet found any jeans that fit me and are as comfortable and durable as the old 505s. They took a good thing and they broke it. All for higher profits.
Good thing for me that my daughter is a skilled seamstress and patches and stitches my old jeans to keep them alive (though rather odd-looking).
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Saint No. 59: I came back, after a long absence, just to say hello to my hirsute friend Ed, but cannot refrain from asking you what the heck do you think the gargantuan Stimulus Package is but borrow and spend. Loaded with pork, this obscenity will saddle future generations with a debt that boggles the mind. And please remember that the Democrats controlled Senate and House for more than 2 years of the Bush administration. Spending bills do not pass without the approval of Congress. And now we have another monstrous bill to consider, the Omnibus Bill that includes yet more pork, 60% of which was inserted by Democrats and, to their shame, 40% by Republicans.
Obama's "Change" was supposed to include the abolishment of pork - the smell emanating from these two bills must be overwhelming in the Oval Office and in the Halls of Congress.
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@ 23 "Lou Dobbs profiles...American workers who are forced to train their new H1B replacement worker....they will work for less with fewer benefits"
- sorry, that's wrong. A company cannot apply for an H1B unless they can demonstrate that the position cannot be filled by an American, and that the H1B candidate will be working for the same wage and benefits.
If you have proof that this is being abused, report the company. They are in violation. What's more, under US law that H1B replacement is being exploited.
@25 - MAII "What has Britain ever done for America?"
Nothing. Absolutely nothing. We'd like our language back now, though, so one hopes you're reasonably fluent in Spanish or French.
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93, Ed and Noble - this is really the Obama
plan. Raise taxes on the "rich," and then inflate
the currency so that we are all "rich."
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Ed (#93), I'm thinking pork and cactus (nopalitos) stew in the slow cooker is a good way to pay homage to both the stimulus package and international trade.
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74 Bere.
Yes, well, there are many factors at work, and my previous lengthy point had to do with basic postulates of economics about which there is not any great controversy.
As it turns out, the issue is not whether clothes, or cars, or any other product, can be manufactured in the US (or Canada, or Luxembourg) but rather what the purchaser foregoes by purchasing that product.
The central issue of economic theory is the concept of scarcity. Since we cannot obtain goods and services at zero cost, and since each of us has limited resources, we make decisions about which mix of goods to obtain, and in what quantities. Generally speaking we will use our scarce resources as efficiently as possible given the choices available.
If we can obtain a dozen oranges for a dozen apples, we will prefer to do that rather than obtain only half a dozen oranges for a dozen apples. We will then have six oranges that we can trade for something else, say half a pound of cherries, and end up better off than otherwise.
It is taken for granted that economically efficient solutions are desirable, both at the individual level and at the global level.
The topic we have been discussing comes under the heading "comparative advantage".
There are three fascinating truths about comparative advantage. First, Smith may be more efficient than Jones at every conceivable activity, and yet it still makes sense for Smith to trade with Jones because they can achieve more by their combined efforts than either can alone, and so both will be better off by combining their efforts to achieve a more efficient use of resources.
Second, even if Jones is a rigid protectionist (read: North Korea or Burma, leaving aside other issues) Smith will still be better off by being a free trader than by retaliating. While this second point is counter-intuitive at first, what it is really saying, as demonstrated by New Zealand over the last decade, is that no matter how badly my neighbours distort their economies with tariff walls, my own economy will be the least distorted, and the least injured by my neighbour's activity, if I do not merely add further distortions but rather take the most efficient options still available.
Third, the country that aims to supply all of its own goods by import substitution (e.g., the license Raj in India from 1947 - 1997) will be the one that is most injured by the resulting market distortions. Anyone familiar with queuing for goods in the eastern block countries prior to 1989 knows the truth of this: The country that is most injured by tariff barriers is the country that imposes them.
All of this is a long way about of saying that sure, we can make jeans in North America, but when we do we need to be conscious of what we are giving up instead. For example, if I am not mistaken, there is still a thriving fashion industry in northern Italy. Italy ought to be an high cost producer. But the jobs in Italy are the highly skilled, and highly paid, jobs in design, and also in fast changing trends where the price premium for the good reflects the nimbleness of the vendor, not the rock bottom price of labour in east Asia. The money that consumers don't spend on expensive home-produced jeans may go instead on other goods - from burritos to autos to manicures.
Having said this, you may have noted in some previous postings that I am all in favour of building wind farms, even though they may not appear to imply an economically efficient allocation of resources when oil is $ 45/bbl., and I am all in favour of promoting government primed upgrading of railroad infrastructure, whether for freight or passenger operations.
These are not, on first sight, economically efficient allocations of resources, so, you may ask, isn't this hypocritical?
Here we run into another basic issue of economics, and morality, really, because the real issue is whether all of the costs of the alternatives are included in the current, apparent, price. This is the issue of externalities - benefits or burdens of an activity that are not completely captured or contained by the people involved in the activity. My wife, for example, thinks bagpipes are inherent emitters of negative externalities upon anyone within earshot. I happen to think of it as a positive externality, but not all countries have, or appreciate, the true the natural blessings of Scotland, or, indeed, of the Scots.
We tend to believe that it is immoral, and often either a civil wrong or a criminal offense, to impose negative externalities on others.
Both wind power and rail travel appear to me to have significant positive externalities, whereas their alternatives appear to have very significant negative externalities that are not captured in their current prices, but whose costs will be born by our children and grand children. Plainly, there are moral implications to that observation, too.
There are also the example of food subsidies in Switzerland (which I support to some extent), France (the CAP being an abomination). Hypocritical? Well, perhaps.
As a result of its experiences in WWII, Switzerland decided as a national security issue that it will maintain an agricultural potential sufficient to feed itself in time of war. That is a public policy spending decision authorized by Swiss voters. The point here is that Swiss voters are not merely buying food, they are making an implicit defense expenditure, which at some political level they consider to be good value for money. We might disagree, but another fundamental assumption of economics is that each of us is free to make our own choices, and "there's no accounting for taste".
The CAP, by contrast, has no such legitimacy, and is an exceptionally expensive way of bribing French farmers, and keeping African farmers poor, to boot. Dubious morality there, for sure.
This is way, way too long, already, but we haven't even come to the dangers of mercantilism, the point implicit in the comment in this string that the US, Canada, the UK, and our good old and reliable friends play fair, whereas China does not. That is going to have to wait for another comment.
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96, bere54, all true. Levi's was the last brand to manufacture
in the states. Unfortunately, the American people
didn't have the wisdom to continue buying their
product.
What did you expect? After all, they elected Bush II,
and now the present crew.
I suggest that instead of protectionism, we pass a
law requiring all Americans to raise their IQ score
by 20 points.
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re: 84 Gary Hill If China doesn't play by the same rules, and with the same constraints, as the western democracies, and if their practices hurt the US (and others), why should we not protect ourselves?
You might be interested in this article by Niall Ferguson. Ferguson understands the current economic crisis as the failure of "Chimerica:" the symbiotic relationship between China and the US.
In this relationship, policy makers in the West looked the other way while the Chinese devalued their currency vis a vis the dollar. This obviously benefited the Chinese by keeping their goods cheaper in dollar terms.
The benefit for us was that the Chinese used their huge accumulation of savings arising out of rapid rates of export led economic growth to buy US Treasuries and Mortgage securities from Fannie and Freddie. Because of the endless Chinese appetite for US debt, interest rates fell, and the borrowing boom, for better or worse, was the result.
Anyway, the point is that it was not a one way deal. The Chinese benefited from export growth, the US (and the rest of us too) benefited from low interest rates. That this turned into a real estate and financial services bubble, and subsequent bust, is due in large measure to the way we managed and used the availability of cheap credit.
As a side note, but pertinent to Justin's musings, Ferguson points out that the US has emerged from previous economic crises in much better shape than other economies. He argues that this is due to the US maintaining "a benign environment for technological innovation and entrepreneurship."
If you institute policies that chase highly qualified and highly trained foreign grads out of the US, I wonder what effect this might have on this "benign" environment.
Yours,
Pinko
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Is it better to have a brown pm or a grey prez?
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Saint: Sorry for sending my blog twice, but at my age I think I can be forgiven for a "senior moment" now and again. Maybe you can let me know, after your idol signs the bill, just how many jobs are created. Time will tell! As a matter of fact, I hope the effort will succeed, and that my son, out of work as a forester since August and with a great resume, will go back to work.
Ed: I speed-read that voluminous article (I didn't have the patience to take it all in), but the bottom line is that my wife and I are agreed that we lived in the best of times, despite our early poverty-line existence in Brum, and that small farms were those lovely places which were the lifeblood of Great Britain, and which epitomised all that was beautiful about that "sceptr'd isle". I remember picking hops in Tenbury Wells as a boy. In these days of huge farming conglomerates, which have destroyed the family farm, it is a beautiful memory.
Your love of the land shines through. May you keep fighting the good fight and prosper.
By the way, don't you think the proliferation of spelling errors in these blogs speaks to the failure of modern-day education?
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FREE TRADE OR DIE should be the motto for the G-20. We are in so deep until the only thing left to do as Joseph Goebbels and George W. Bush said to their respective peoples, STAY THE COURSE!
Of Course the Course led to the destruction of Berlin and the economic crisis of 2008, but no matter. One has to do something.
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101, Interested -
"Both wind power and rail travel appear to me to have significant positive externalities, whereas their alternatives appear to have very significant negative externalities that are not captured in their current prices, but whose costs will be born by our children and grand children. Plainly, there are moral implications to that observation, too."
I would think that one of the "significant negative externalities . . . not captured in their current prices" of the cheap (and crappy) products we now import (like the shoddy jeans) is the eventual cost of the disposal of the these throwaway items, the overflowing landfills (dumpsters filled with small Chinese-made appliances) and the long term effect on the environment, which of course will be borne by our children and grandchildren. And the actual cost is not just eventual; here at least we have to pay to get rid of our garbage as well as our supposedly recyclable materials. I had to pay to dispose of my milkhouse heater that broke after one winter's use.
On the rare occasions when I venture into a shopping mall, what I think about is that all that crap, most of it completely unnecessary and most of it being cheap imports, is going to be disposed of, sooner rather than later. Where is it all going to go?
The eventual cost to the environment of all this stuff is going to be heavy indeed. In fact, it already is.
Remember (or remember hearing about) when most shoes were hand-made and were rather expensive? People owned way fewer pairs of shoes, and what they did own was of good quality. Even when they were no longer hand-made, they still weren't cheap or badly made. When I was a kid, I had my school shoes, my play shoes, and my dress shoes (those nasty patent-leather mary janes - I hated them!). How many American kids these days do you suppose have only three pairs of shoes? Even poor kids (and we weren't poor)?
And your wife would probably know more about this than you would, but even the clothing in expensive dress shops is usually imported, and not well made. But very expensive because of some sought-after label.
I worry that the age of cheap imports, stuff that falls apart, breaks, never works as it's supposed to, is destroying the planet.
I speak as a hypocrite, being someone who owns six pairs of Chuck Taylor sneakers. But I have had the same six pairs for years, and have actually thrown out only one pair of shoes in recent memory and they were 15 years old. They were winter sneaker boots from a catalog company, and the ones I got to replace them, same shoe, same company, are utter crap. They won't last me 15 years. I'll be lucky if they make it through next winter. They're made in China.
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Hi Noble,
You'd think they could at least be taught to use the spell checker built into almost all text editing applications (like firefox is doing as I type this directly into the "Your Comment" box.Thanks for your good wishes, and I reciprocate. May you and your good lady enjoy yet more years of the Florida climate, and your son, with whose vocation I have great empathy, as does my mentor, Mr Berry.
Peace and good forestry
ed
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ref #94
One polls that Obama and the Dems don't want to mention is that the Democratic congress has a lower apporval rating than the Republicans.
Still waiting for Barney Frank and Chris Dodd to be grilled on their trangressions in the financial crisis.
Barney the Coward and Dodd the Coutrywide stooge.
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Brown's speech contained the interesting passage:
One would have hoped that "two brains" Brown would know that the "race to the bottom" is a phenomenon directly resulting from an unregulated "free" market (an absence of 'protctionism') in which there are no barriers to trade, and thus corporations are free to seek the cheapest, most unprotected and exploited labour and least environmentally regulated areas of manufacture...So Broon is effectively asking if we want maximum exploitation or maximum exploitation - and this from the best speech writers available! Talk about getting one's metaphors mixed up!The real choice is actually between open unregulated markets, complete with the resulting race to the bottom and the alternative of a well-regulated set of interdependent local markets which protect the interests of their local labour force and the environment in which their great grandchildren will hope to live.
I know which I choose.
ed
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108 bere
I must be abnormal, then. I only own 4 pairs of shoes (running, black dress, brown dress, hiking boots) plus a ratty pair of tennis shoes for yardwork and a beat up pair of docksides to putter about when I don't feel like tying anything.
But I agree about the quality. I had a wonderful pair of boots from a national, top-quality outdoors supplier no names (but they like Northern New England...) After 3 years, the soles wore completely through. I was shocked...
So I had no choice to succumb to planned obsolescence and buy a new pair. But the laces on the new ones disintegrated in 3 months.
But, just found a cobbler next town over, so I plan on seeing if they can mend my old ones. Then I'll have 2 pair, and be rich!
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112, Via-Media -
I think that top-quality outdoors supplier that likes Northern New England is the same company where I got the sneaker boots. I don't think "top-quality" describes them anymore. Sad. But hey, I guess that's the race to the bottom Ed mentioned in #111.
What I find really disturbing is that while everyone else's sales are going down, Walmart's are going up. That's who the former "top-quality" co. is competing with. That's a real race to the bottom. And when it's all over with, Walmart is what we'll all be left with. I sure hope the shoes I have now will last me the rest of my life.
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Ref. 112
I can heartily recommend Garmont hiking boots.I've put about 200 miles on mine, all of it rugged mountain terrain, and I haven't had one problem. They have good stiff soles and their nice and light.
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108 Bere54.
I'm too lazy to compose another economic commentary today. But the term "patent leather" shoes brings back lots of memories.
I don't know anything about milkhouse heaters, but they sound interesting. Tell me more. (I would have expected something like that to be built by the Dutch, the Swedes, the Germans, or the Swiss, because my Swiss friends pride themselves on having contented cows. In their view contented cows give better milk, and nervous cows give bitter or sour milk. I thought they were having me on, but they seemed serious enough about it.)
As for shoes, well, there's a topic, too. C$ 140 (or more) for running shoes! And the kids go through three pairs in a school year. The running shoes you can buy now wear out ridiculously fast, but they also cushion your feet far, far better than the shoes we had 30 or 40 years ago, and they are intended to be replaced. Polymer foams have a memory, and once they have been pounded enough, they need to be replaced - just like hockey helmets.
Yes, I remember having one pair of running shoes, and one pair of either black or brown Oxfords that were worn to school (brown) or to church (black). I have the vague recollection that it wasn't considered respectful to wear brown shoes in Chruch, and if you damaged your black shoes playing sports at school that was likely to bring trouble when you got home. The thing is, my parents just didn't have the money for each child to have half a dozen pairs of shoes. Nobody did in those days.
The toes of the Oxfords were always hard as bullets when they were new, and then the would slowly be bashed down over time.
In 1986 I bought three pairs of high quality dress shoes for work. Part of the reason I bought them was because as children we never, ever, had good shoes. For the first time in my life I had a good job, and I was paid well. They were expensive high quality shoes. Three pairs of Dack shoes, C$ 420., total. Dacks used to be considered a pretty good brand. I still have two of the pairs, and one is of a style that can't be replaced. I can't remember how many times I have had the soles replaced, but soles don't last more than 2 years if you wear them every day. I take fairly good care of them, but the uppers are finally starting to go. I like the one pair so much that I asked a specialty shoemaker about having a new pair made by hand as an exact copy of the old pair. The shoemaker said it would be C$ 600., and even then he said it would never come close to matching the quality of the original mass produced factory built shoe. If you were dress shoes 250 days a year, and you get 20+ years out of them, C$ 600., is probably not a bad price. The thing is, I don't think the quality of shoes has gone down in real terms. C$ 140 in 1986 is roughly equivalent to C$ 500 (+/-) now, and to get shoes like that, well, you would pay a lot.
Just random reminiscences.
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Ref. 111
Ed, I think your correct, but I also think your missing Mr. Brown's point. I really don't anything about economics myself. I've been trying to learn by listening to Bloomberg online. Protectionism seems to be almost universally panned as a losing strategy and feared by economists. Protectionism spreads around the globe from what I understand. All of the world's trading partners lose access to their foreign markets in the end, which causes job losses, which causes everyone to suffer. I think Mr. Brown is thinking of the "bottom" as a the cessation of trade.
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Ref. 110
"One polls that Obama and the Dems don't want to mention is that the Democratic congress has a lower apporval rating than the Republicans."
I gotta call you on that one. I'm pretty sure that's not the case. You got a source?
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Ref. 91
I agree completely.
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Ref. 106
"...my son, out of work as a forester since August and with a great resume, will go back to work."
Tell him to hang tough. Things will get better. We're going to figure this out.
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110
Actually, the latest Gallup poll in February showed that Congressional approval has gone up to 31%, largely due to an increase in Democrats' approval of Congress, which jumped from 18% in Jan. to 43% in Feb.; Republican approval of Congress fell from 23% to 19%, and Independant approval jumped from 17% to 29%.
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112, 114: one word: Vasque
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re:@98- sorry, that's wrong. A company cannot apply for an H1B unless they can demonstrate that the position cannot be filled by an American, and that the H1B candidate will be working for the same wage and benefits.
Really? Companies do "demonostrate" that the position cannot be filled by an American, they demonstrate that the American worker is in fact overqualified many times. How convenient.
CON: Wages belie claims of a labor shortage
by Norman Matloff:
"Microsoft founder Bill Gates is personally leading the industry's charge for more H-1B visas. Yet Microsoft asked its contract software developers earlier this year to take a seven-day furlough, to save money. And the firm admits that its salaries are not keeping up with inflation. Again, none of
this squares with Microsoft's claims of a labor shortage."
From an AP investigation-" During the last three months of 2008, the largest banks that received taxpayer loans announced more than 100,000 layoffs. The number of foreign workers included among those laid off is unknown. Foreigners are attractive hires because companies have found ways to pay them less than American workers.
Companies are required to pay foreign workers a prevailing wage based on the job's description. But they can use the lower end of government wage scales even for highly skilled workers; hire younger foreigners with lower salary demands; and hire foreigners with higher levels of education or advanced degrees for jobs for which similarly educated American workers would be considered overqualified"
Why not be honest and just say some companies, not the majority, simply want to higher workers at lower wages, and will use deception because they know that the government will just take their word for it that they cannot find any "qualified" American worker. Millions of dollars are contributed to politicians of both parties by these companies, because they know that these contributions will buy them minimal oversight by the government. Or are these companies contributing simply because they like the politicians stance on guns, abortion or education policy?
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Been thinking...
If the USA had stuck to isolationist tendencies, there wouldn't have been a 9/11. Basically, the USA shouldn't interfere in the rest of the world's politics or in general, nor should it tolerate foreign fiddling of US affairs. I think life would have been much simpler, and easier to deal with.
No, I don't think trade barriers should be put up, but I do think the USA should answer any protectionist policies in kind should it encounter any. And, refusing immigration is a mistake. My country was built on the backs of immigrants, so they are vital to the health of the nation. (not to imply immigrants are only useful for physical labor etc)
The US should've stuck to the Monroe Doctrine....
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BTW,
I think I might have 2 pairs of shoes, that's all. Wonder if that means I'm really poor?
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Ah Marcus!
'What's the UK ever given the US?'
What about the beautiful means of communication, THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE, with it;s ancient and evocotive terms, such as,
Wassock,Pillock,and the more modern,'If the cap fit's, wear it', and so forth.......
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From Radio 4
The Friday episode is about "certainty" and the associated problems...(Available afer 12:45 AM Saturday March 7th) on "listn again...Highly recommended
;-)
Uncertain ed
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Andy,
Possibly the best reason to consider it. ;-)Actually, I think Brown is missing his own point. The race to the bottom is a direct result of the abandonment of protectionism, not of protectionism. We should consider from where this general condemnation of protectionism issues - transnational corporate wolves and their virtual slaves, the bought-and-paid-for politicians. As I said, if the Economists are against it, it's worth considering.
Peace and local economies
ed
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92. MAII
Smoot Hawley injured America more than it injured any other country. I am not aware of a single credible economic study that shows or concludes otherwise.
Britain found the Monroe Doctrine quite convenient, and was, quite probably, the country that reaped the greatest economic benefit from the Monroe Doctrine.
In the late 1930's the "America Firsters" espoused the same views that you espouse now. We all know what would have happened if anyone had listened to them. Those views are just as hopelessly wrong-headed now as they were then.
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International trade and globalization should only be acceptable when they are of mutual benefit to both sides. Unfortunately, that is not the case when it comes to trade with the USA.
Our trade deficits are one of several factors for the economic problems we are having, and a contributor to the accumulation of debt and for the large dollar holdings that some nations use as leverage to pursue policies that would have elicited condemnation from us not too long ago.
While people fret about the US government considering a "buy American" policy, little is said aboout the agricultural subsidies in countries such as France, or the artificial and absurd value of China's currency.
Unless we stop moving our factories and technology abroad to increase the bottom line, we risk becoming a second rate nation with large holdings abroad that benefit a few and massive unemployment or under employment for the rest.
The explanation put forth a few decades ago about the benefits of us becoming a service oriented society comes into question when we call our telephone company Help Desk and a person in India answers the phone. The whole thing is a scam by those that only care for short term gains even if it means the demise of our country.
The only segments of our "industry" where jobs are still plentiful at home are healthcare, agriculture, construction - such as it is - and low paying retail and hospitality jobs. The mighty industry that was once the pride of our country is for all intents and purposes a thing of the past.
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#92 MarcusAureliusII wrote:
:::From the looks of Afghanistan, we can't even count on them fulfilling their legal obligations in a cooperative effort in their own behalf. Only Britain of all other NATO countries is pulling its fair share of the weight and Canada is looking for an excuse to get out.:::
Canada has done more than its fair share (They've even sent their tank. Yes, that's TANK ... singular. ;-) )
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Ref 91, noble
"Obama's "Change" was supposed to include the abolishment of pork - the smell emanating from these two bills must be overwhelming in the Oval Office and in the Halls of Congress."
It seems to me that what we are faced with is either pork at home or pork abroad. Personally, I prefer to see my tax dollars spent repairing bridges in rural America, than see it spent on sole source contracts in Iraq or massive amounts of aid to Israel.
I do agree, however, that the stench that emanates from the Oval Office when they have the audacity of giving tax breaks to the middle class and not extending those to the wealthiest Americans must be overpowering to every red blooded American billionaire. Repairing our crumbling infrastructure must be particularly vexing for every patriot, and should be flagged as pork if it doesn't include airplane hangars for wealthy friends (as a resident of Florida I am sure you will appreciate the latter). The most offensive initiatives, however, are the decision to improve our education system; after all, we rank #17 in the world in high school graduations and, of course, healthcare reform. Can you imagine the effects of making healthcare available to every American and, on top of that, reducing corporate operating costs by 20%?
Socialism! Bring Darth Cheney Vader back!
Sorry for the sarcasm!
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Just checking our moral pulse......
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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Dominick,
Plentiful?? Really?? I guess that's why so many farmers also have a "day job" to make ends meet...I guess you must be referring to the plentiful (seasonal, underpaid, and insecure) itinerant jobs picking fruit, etc.?All three of the "industries" you note also have their full quota of (legal or illegal) immigrants competing for what jobs there are...
Peace
ed
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115, Interested -
"I don't know anything about milkhouse heaters, but they sound interesting. Tell me more."
It's just a small space heater that's meant to be used in a small milkhouse. I bought it for use in a bathroom with no heat source that had been constructed over a porch, with apparently little or no insulation in the ceiling of the porch or floor of the bathroom. That was one cold bathroom.
I used to be a runner so know about running shoes. I ran five to six miles a day and replaced my shoes every couple of years, and never spent more than $60 on a pair. My experience tells me one does not need outrageously expensive shoes with all bells and whistles to run comfortably. I've known marathon runners who say that the highest-price, highest-tech shoes don't make any difference. If you're pounding the pavement, not only will your shoes wear out that much faster, but so will your feet, knees, and hips. If you can hear someone's feet hit the ground from more than a few feet away, they're hitting too hard. Not good form.
124, Jeebers76
No, it just means you're sensible.
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re: 129 stDom The mighty industry that was once the pride of our country is for all intents and purposes a thing of the past.
And getting worse by the day.
This is true in Canada as well, particularly in manufacturing.
I suppose the justification for "offshor-ing" was always that relatively low skill, low pay, assembly line jobs would be replaced by more skilled, technical, creative opportunities. Instead we get the widening cleavages, first between the shrinking industrial sectors and the "new economy," and second between the upper levels of the "new economy," and those who are stuck with the new joe jobs in the service and hospitality sectors. And now, the white collar new economy types are feeling the pain, as well.
The source of these failures? To my mind, it is in large part a question of public policy failure.
Domestic policies that failed to invest, at the community level, in aiding those people dislocated by the new economy. A failure to invest in new public infrastructures of transportation, education, and research and development. Just for starters.
Foreign trade policies that took almost no interest in establishing or enforcing international environmental or labour standards.
In short, an almost blind faith that, left to themselves, market forces would ensure the emergence of the best of all possible worlds.
Now is the time for a thorough-going re-assessment of many of our basic operating assumptions of the last 25 years. The G20 summit in London could be a milestone event. We shall see.
Yours,
Pinko
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Pinko,
A milestone on the race to the bottom, I reckon...The model is a sort of Bretton Woods II.Bretton Woods is where the dream/nightmare of an economy based on continuous growth in consumption was spawned....and, with 20/20 hindsight (thanks Epimetheus!) the root of our present difficulties.I submit (yet again) twenty seven points to consider.
Peace and an end to growth*
ed
* "Growth for its own sake is the ideology of the cancer cell."-- Ed Abbey
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Saint 131: Strangely, despite the sarcasm, which was like water off a duck's back, I find myself in agreement with some of your comments. Firstly, I am opposed to the huge foreign aid program of the federal government, which sends money to Third World countries that in the main hate our guts. Ergo, I want our tax money to stay in the country. And I do not consider money spent on our crumbling infrastructure to be pork. Pork can be summed up in one little item that was slipped in, probably at the last minute in order to avoid scrutiny - a million or so to find a way to eliminate the smell of pigs emanating from piggeries.
As for universal health, I fear the creation of yet another huge bureaucracy, and problems such as those that plague the national health programs in the U.K. and other European countries.
As that cute singer of yesteryear, Doris Day, used to sing, "Whatever will be, will be, the future's not ours to see".
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"where would the US be without the UK?"
without trains .
The new invention that created new america, or allowed it to screw up all they found.
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Ref 133, Ed
"Plentiful?? Really?? I guess that's why so many farmers also have a "day job" to make ends meet..."
The federal government, healthcare related companies, education, and agriculture are still hiring. Perhaps the jobs are not plentiful, but there are job opportunities in those sectors of our defunct economy.
The problem with farming jobs is that most Americans have little interests in them, leaving farmers no option but to hire illegal alliens. Incidentally, an unexpected development from the economic slowdown is that the influx of illegal alliens has dwindled and there are many returning voluntarily to their home countries. That is particularly true for those working in construction. Hopefully the guys that pick our veggies and fruits will not go anywhere or we may have to start buying produce from...Mexico!
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122. At 06:01am on 06 Mar 2009, ChristopherUSA wrote:
"Really? Companies do "demonostrate" that the position cannot be filled by an American, they demonstrate that the American worker is in fact overqualified many times. How convenient."
- then they should be hiring a less qualified American and are still in violation. Report them, insist the law be enforced.
CON: Wages belie claims of a labor shortage
by Norman Matloff:
"Microsoft founder Bill Gates is personally leading the industry's charge for more H-1B visas. Yet Microsoft asked its contract software developers earlier this year to take a seven-day furlough, to save money. And the firm admits that its salaries are not keeping up with inflation. Again, none of
this squares with Microsoft's claims of a labor shortage."
- You do understand the difference between a contractor and an employee? No? I used to be one and worked alongside devs and gurus charging a lot of money for their skills. Contractors are typically people you don't keep on staff because you might need them for one project over six months, not for the next (x) years. Contractors typically come with a lot of experience too.
- I don't want to enter into a detailed description of the IT world: if you're in it, you know how challenging it can be to keep up and how much of a grind the entry level work can be. It can also be tough to convince companies to train their staff - some companies see training as a great way for an employee to spruce up their resume and get a better job elsewhere; if a company won't pay to train, you need to pay for your own training and that's not always possible.
"From an AP investigation-" During the last three months of 2008, the largest banks that received taxpayer loans announced more than 100,000 layoffs. The number of foreign workers included among those laid off is unknown. Foreigners are attractive hires because companies have found ways to pay them less than American workers.
Companies are required to pay foreign workers a prevailing wage based on the job's description. But they can use the lower end of government wage scales even for highly skilled workers; hire younger foreigners with lower salary demands; and hire foreigners with higher levels of education or advanced degrees for jobs for which similarly educated American workers would be considered overqualified""
- this is fun. You have one piece of information: 100,000 workers were layed off. From that, the piece derives a bunch of stuff about corrupt business practice. I hear the sound of an axe being ground. That and an accidental riff on the "they come here to steal our jobs!" refrain of old.
"Why not be honest and just say some companies, not the majority, simply want to higher workers at lower wages,"
- ALL companies. Hence taking jobs offshore and the practice of hiring illegals or others who won't complain about poor wages or conditions. Humans are expensive and the best way to lower costs is to get rid of as many of them as possible. Of course, that's very short term thinking but since when did business look to the future, at all?
"and will use deception because they know that the government will just take their word for it that they cannot find any "qualified" American worker."
- no, they just know that no one is going to blow the whistle on them. If you have good evidence this is happening, you should contact ICE; you could make a lot of Immigration folks very happy.
If all you have are vague suspicions and some second hand journalism, you should stick to blogs and forums where you can sound like a tireless crusader for truth and justice. Me, I'm an Immigrant. My fellow Immigrants seem to be unexploited and not replacing Americans, at least at the company where I work, so while it wouldn't surprise me to learn that there are companies exploiting the poverty and inequality of the world to create a source of cheaper educated labour, I've no proof that this is happening. Despite my tireless campaigning, misanthropy is still not admissible as evidence in a court of law.
"Millions of dollars are contributed to politicians of both parties by these companies, because they know that these contributions will buy them minimal oversight by the government. Or are these companies contributing simply because they like the politicians stance on guns, abortion or education policy?"
- I was wondering when we would get to the Conspiracy aspect. We can go further - are we comfortably paranoid? Then I'll begin. We can say that the companies have deliberately engineered a state where developing nations are exploited and kept poor so the middle classes of America can be guilt-tripped into buying the people of these nations education and healthcare as acts of personal charity. This leaves the companies themselves free to keep wages low and benefits lower, to make little or no contribution to the infrastructure of the nation and to project an air of worthiness because they are bringing "better" conditions and pay to other countries.
Tinfoil hats on for the next bit: these companies are cycling through the nations of the world, outsourcing to one nation while arranging for the West to pay for the education of the next. The nations being outsourced to are slowly creeping west, and they are preparing Africa for commercialisation by making them dependant on the West for aid and support. By the time Africa is home to manufacture and call centers, the working populations of Europe will be so cowed by the threat of outsourcing and cheap foreign labour that they will no longer ask for improvements to pay or conditions, and the working world will be equally subjugated.
Tinfoil hat off, and rest.
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floridian.
I suspect many who are not grumpy old republicans,(if you know any pass on this message) that tried to pretend to be a Hillary fan to speak crap about Obama for months are quite happy with Obama .But more than a little disappointed in the old folk that are hoarding their wealth while they scream " there's a black man in the white house"we will make it happen . Force him out by obstruction,Rush is right and It's or money and we'll burn it if we want to.
Where did all the money go and when.
When the rich republicans all started panicking that Obama was going to win. They all thought they could be the sneaky one to get out before it hit.
Just they didn't. But no matter they have so much and so much stacked in their favour that it does not matter they can out last the poor who will have sold their home by then thereby giving them rich folk a chance to mine the recession for all those under valued properties.
But carry on blaming Obama because your generation decided that everything they saw was theirs.
that they could own whatever they liked.
that they should not fund schools because they are OK.
No health care because They are OK.
The "selfish generation" will soon be gone lets hope they didn't teach their kids (who they generally ignored (look at psychology) all their bad ways.
Frankly I find it shameful to think of the faces I saw at the GOP conference, to think they sit in rooms these days with their little venomous comments about it being Obama's fault.
When it is the result of those very same mockers lives. Their right to be wasteful. their right to ignore science because it leads to uncomfortable truths (like the planet is going south not just our population.
Feed them till they drop
medicate them till they drop.
and make rules about personal harmless maybe even beneficial habits while taking rules for swindling the next generation away.(visa bankruptcy law changes) all because They want it all.
Obama cannot change those too old too change.
Oh but spelling is still the one subject some are good at. Great if we ever have a war of cross words.
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"As for universal health, I fear the creation of yet another huge bureaucracy, and problems such as those that plague the national health programs in the U.K. and other European countries. "
Anyone that can say this after the results of ignoring Health care in the US have become so obvious must have their head in the sand. looking for spelling mistakes.
I would fear it being crap as well.
but then the complete and utter absence of any healthcare program is a lot worse.
long live the youth
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"a million or so to find a way to eliminate the smell of pigs emanating from piggeries. "
Cheap considering that smell could provide fuel. or are you misleading us was this actually a methane recapturing system that was being looked at?
I wouldn't know but I know your style and so I would assume you are leading all down the path here.
But still why have such big piggeries .
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138 we can only prEy
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chronophobe (#103), thanks for the link. That is an interesting article, but I don't know what to make of it. I am inclined to think that no economist (or in this case, economic historian) really knows what he or she is talking about. They are all so sure of their own theories, but they can't arrive at a consensus within their profession.
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#137,
Blast, I so enjoy your posts..
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Noble, my friend,
The largest recipient (by a long shot) is Israel, and it's disingenuous to describe the aid programme as "huge", being well down the "league table" of developed nations as a proportion of ability to give....Also remember:
Trillions is for Debt
Billions is for Armaments
Millions is for aid (except Israel, which gets billions)
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
P.S. I wonder how much of the aid given to Israel comes back through AIPAC. Taxpayers are probably indirectly funding the lobbyists....
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Trillions is for Debt
Billions is for Armaments
Millions is for aid (except Israel, which gets billions)
well said Ed
No brackets needed though.
Israel gets Billion because they get armaments not aid.
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@144 "but why have such big piggeries"?
Robert Rankin says that pigs continue to grow until someone or something kills them.
So big piggeries might indicate really big pigs.
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MarcusAureliusII @92:
"Europe GAVE nothing to America ever."
(I have no idea why my 137 response was considered offensive, so I'll try again:)
Marcus old bean,
Try the jet engine, and radar (RDF), both given to the USA free of charge by Britain. Yes, really!
We also presented you with swing-wing technology at very favourable terms, vertical take-off technology ditto (and you had been trying since the early 1950's to master that without success, maybe we took pity on you), and the hovercraft.
You never did get the hang of supersonic commercial aircraft though did you? We did!
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143, happylaze -
Agreed. It never fails to astonish, and anger, me that so many of those older people on Medicare are oblivious to or don't give a crap about the lack of affordable health coverage for the young people who are paying for that Medicare out of their often meager paychecks. It's a case of "I've got mine; screw you." That fellow who calls himself "noble" could be more accurately called "ignoble."
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Here 'tis!
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Ref 149, Happy
"Israel gets Billion because they get armaments not aid."
I believe Israel receives $3.5B a year in financial aid from the USA, PLUS a similar amount in military aid. It is also important to note that the armament they get from us is not the obsolete junk we give to other allies, but the same state-of-the-art equipment we use. No restrictions or concerns there.
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151, MalcolmW2, as much as I approve of your
sentiment, as chief self-appointed nit-picker, I
must point out that radar was simultaneously
under development in many countries prior to
WWII, including Holland and (gasp) the French!
A synopsis is provided here.
The major contribution of the Brits to the entire
thing was that they were the first to integrate
radar into their air defense system - we ignored
ours at Pearl Harbor.
The Brits also developed the cavity magnetron,
which is a vacuum tube which allows energy
to be "pulsed," which is necessary for decent
range, and our guys developed the PPI, which
stands for "Plan Position Indicator," which is
a type of CRT tube which shows radar echoes
as the receiving antenna sweeps around.
The Germans lagged somewhat behind. One of
the major reasons why they lost the Battle of Britain
was that while they initially aggressively bombed
your radar stations, they discontinued the bombardment,
not understanding what they were.
Now, as far as the jet engine, both the Brits and
the Americans were very slow to recognize
its potential, so when we finally got around to
developing it, we were 18 months behind the
Germans.
What is truly amazing is that Frank Whittle submitted
his first technical proposal for a jet engine to the
British government in 1929! He was ignored, of
course, as the job of every proper democracy is
to be as sluggish and unresponsive as possible.
And, because our government is just as obtuse
and sluggish as yours, there is a little story that
I heard from a Lockheed old-timer about our
own jet program.
In 1942, Lockheed submitted a proposal to our
Dept. of Defense about a future jet fighter,
which eventually came to be known as the P-80.
For an entire year, they received no word. But,
in 1943, they were contacted by DOD (or War Dept,
as it might have been known) people, and asked
to prepare a proposal to produce a jet fighter
using a British engine, at the rate of 30 a day.
That's 10,000 fighters a year.
Just as production was being ramped up in
1945, the war ended, so we saved a lot of
aluminum, which eventually found its way into
soda cans.
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143, happylaze -
I'm going to try this again because my post #152 has been censored for no reason I can possibly fathom.
I agree with your comments. I am always astonished, and angered, by the older people on Medicare who seem oblivious to or don't give a damn about those younger people without affordable health coverage who are funding that Medicare out of their often meager paychecks. The attitude seems to be: "I've got mine; to hell with you."
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And then my post #152 said, "That fellow who calls himself "noble" could more accurately be termed "ignoble."
Is this what got me censored?
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Does anyone know who is actually moderating these blogs? Is the job outsourced and perhaps being performed by people who do not have a thorough understanding of the English language?
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MalcolmW2 (#151), actually, the US dropped its SST program for reasons of economic viability, not inability to make it work. The UK and France stuck with it, and they win all the prestige points. But what was the bottom line on the cost? Was there a net subsidy by the governments over the life of the program, or were they paid back? Was it self-sustaining economically when in operation, or was it subsidized throughout?
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guns.. (#155), quite a few of the P-80s (or F-80s) were built, however:
http://www.aviation-history.com/lockheed/p80.html
Still a classic beauty, in my opinion.
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Bere,
I think the moderation is outsourced to the European subsidiary of an American firm....it could b being done in Timbuktu...
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Ref 156, bere
"The attitude seems to be: "I've got mine; to hell with you."
I can't speak for other Social Security and MEDICARE recipients, but I can assure you that the problems my children and grand children are experiencing are very much in my mind and worry me a lot.
MEDICARE is far from being a great system, recipients need supplemental insurance to cover some of the costs associated with doctor's care, hospitalization, and medication. Even then, we often have to pay extra for the services or products we get. I am on MEDICARE and have supplemental insurance, when I had a kidney removed (cancer) a couple of months ago I had to pay $150 a day while I was in the hospital. It may not sound like much, but for retired people on fixed income that's a lot of money.
We do need healthcare reform, but it should also include Social Security and MEDICARE reform. The whole system is broken, it is too expensive, and leaves too many people out.
Demographic changes are exacerbating the problem. Having 4 workers pay for the benefits of one retiree is a recipe for disaster, and since the SS Trust Fund has been raided to make our annual budget deficits look more benign than they are, there is nothing in the kitty to sustain the system.
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re: 146 Gary Hill,
I saw Dr. Ferguson speak here in Ottawa last month. He was very impressive. I don't believe his analysis is, in its basic assumtions, in any way a radical departure from economic orthodoxy.
I was delighted to find his Ottawa lecture, "There Will be Blood," available on the web here.
And Ed, you might find his analysis, if not his prescriptions, interesting too. He describes what we are going through as the "crisis of globalization."
Yours,
Pinko
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162, saintDominick -
It was safe to assume that you and many other posters on here who are SS and Medicare recipients are aware of and concerned about the troubles of the young. I was referring to a specific person here and to other "real" people (not that posters aren't real people, but I mean people I meet face-to-face) who seem to be very callous to serious issues that don't directly affect them.
I realize that Medicare and Social Security are far from perfect, which is one reason that I think those programs need to be folded into one single-payer system for all of us. I thought that prescription drug program with its "donut hole" sounded ghastly, and I know that the woman who owns our little independent pharmacy was practically ready to kill herself over the problems it caused her and her elderly customers.
There is a lot of abuse of the Medicare system. My father was receiving chemotherapy treatment for prostate cancer which had spread to his bones until a week before he died. There really was no point in this because his doctors knew it would do no good (and his quality of life in his last weeks I'm sure would have been better without that chemo). My father hadn't wanted the chemo at all but was talked into it by other family members (not me, though), and because it was covered by Medicare, one doctor promoted it (a doctor at Walter Reed had strongly advised against it, but there was no profit motive whatsoever for him) and my father allowed himself to be swayed. That was an awful lot of wasted money. Paid for by my children and yours.
I do think $150 a day out-of-pocket for a hospital stay sounds like a lot. This kind of thing is abusive gouging by hospitals. I wish we could come together as citizens and have a health revolution wherein we will all say, "Hell no, we won't pay" (would sound better, I know, if it rhymed). If a huge majority of people would have the courage to drop their private insurance, all at the same time, and everyone refused to pay outrageous doctor and hospital charges, we would very quickly have the single-payer system, covering every single person in this country, that we deserve.
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Sense we are talking about what the USA did and did not invent, I have here a list of American Inventions:
1731 Sextant--1749 Lightning rod--1782 Flatboat--1784 Bifocals--1794 Steam locomotive--1794 Cotton gin--1805 Refrigeration--1814 Interchangeable parts manufacturing--1815 Dental floss--1830 Platform scale--1831 Electric doorbell--1831 Electric telegraph--1833 Lock-stitch sewing machine--1835 Wrench--1836 Revolver--1838 Combine harvester--1842 Grain elevator--1849 Safety pin--1850 Inverted microscope--1858 Can opener--1860 Repeating rifle--1867 Motorcycle--1867 Paper clip--1868 Tape measure--1869 Fire hydrant--1874 Fire sprinkler--1875 Electric dental drill--1876 Telephone--1879 Cash register--1881 Machine gun--1884 Fountain pen--1885 Skyscraper--1886 Dishwasher--1891 Radio--1891 Zipper--1898 Flashlight--1900 Thumbtack--1901 Assembly line production--1902 Air conditioning--1903 Airplane--1903 Windshield wipers--1904 Automatic transmission--1911 Self-starter--1912 Autopilot--1912 Electric traffic light--1916 Cloverleaf interchange--1920 Polygraph--1921 Adhesive bandage--1923 Bulldozer--1926 Liquid-fuel rocket--1927 Garbage disposal--1928 Electric razor--1930 Runway lighting--1932 Power steering--1932 Staple remover--1935 Parking meter--1937 Radio telescope--1941 Deodorant--1943 Napalm--1945 Microwave oven--1947 Defibrillator--1947 Supersonic aircraft--1948 Cable television--1954 Radar gun--1955 UAV--1955 Nuclear submarine--1955 Hard disk drive--1958 Carbon fiber--1958 Integrated circuit--1963 Computer mouse--1964 Plasma display--1964 M16--1965 Minicomputer--1965 Compact disc--1967 Airbag--1967 Hand-held calculator--1969 Taser--1969 Smoke detector--1970 Personal computer--1971 Microprocessor--1971 UCAV BGM-34A--1975 Digital camera--1976 Compact fluorescent light bulb--1979 Polar fleece--1979 M1 Abrams tank--1981 Space shuttle--1983 Internet--1983 Voicemail--1984 AH-64 Apache helicopter--1990 Optical space telescope--1993 Global Positioning System--2000 UCAV Army-Boeing X-45--2000 UCAV Navy-Northrop Grumman X-47A--
2002 Robotic vacuum cleaner--2009 Composite aircraft.
Forgive me for leaving out some things, but in the interest of space I chose to cut quite a few inventions out.
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In ref. to 164
A big problem in the US with Medicare and Social Security is that the number of working indivuals relative to retired recipients of those programs is falling rapidly. Our population may still be growing when compared to Europe, but we are an aging nation.
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MalcolmW2 #151
Is that what you call equitable payment for America winning two world wars for Britain, rebuilding it, protecting it from a third? Radar, jet engines, and swing wing technology? Do you think with the trillions spent on those efforts, Americans might not have gotten these themselves if they'd invested it there instead? Not to mention how many lives were lost.
I was around during the pre SST days. America had two design proposals, one from Lockheed and one from Boeing. These were part of a contest Congress ran. Both were significantly larger, faster, and more efficient than Concorde and they would have made money for the airlines. Boeing's design actually won but nobody in America except for the plane builders themselves wanted an SST. It was said that it would be a threat to the ozone layer, couldn't fly over the continental US at supersonic speed because it would shatter every window, would be a plaything for only the rich, and the airlines were still paying for the first generation of jets and then the next generation of jumbo jets. So the project was scrapped in 1971. And then when the Concorde came out around 1972 and the US airlines wouldn't buy it, the French were furious. I know, I was in France at the time.
There was experience with supersonic planes in US aircraft designers' toolkit at the time. For example the B-70 Valkyrie flew at Mach3 at 70,000 feet long before Concorde was on the drawing board.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XB-70_Valkyrie
but not even a passenger American SST prototype was built or even tried. Just wooden mockups.
http://www.super70s.com/super70s/Tech/Aviation/Aircraft/SST.asp
European technology is no match for America's. On a few points here and there but on the whole, they are in different worlds.
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Ed 109 and Andy 119: Many thanks for the kind words. As for happylaze ("selfish generation"), and bere54 (ignoble) maybe you could set these "youngsters" straight Ed.
I am a proud member of the "Greatest Generation" - but for us who served in WWII you whippersnappers would not be able to spew your insults in English. As for my Noble "nickname" I was given several choices by the BBC when I signed up many moons ago, and at the time I did not have any idea that someone would take umbrage at my choice.
And so I bid you farewell Ed. Although you supported Obama throughout the campaign, I trust you to question this all-out drive to socialize the U.S. and I know that in the wilds of Scotland you will keep your eyes on what is happening to your native country.
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#165,
Impressive list but not accurate.
Just two as its late,
Sextant John Hadley England could claim this.
Steam loco George Stephanson tested 1814.
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168 -
I do not "spew." I comment. It's interesting that some people cannot see someone disagreeing with them without making accusations like "spewing insults." Even though my father, who also fought in WWII, also had this habit, I will try not to attribute this idiosyncrasy to all those of the "Greatest Generation."
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I thought all of you would like to know...
When the news about what Obama will be doing with the tax and health care systems came, a lot of conservative Republican types began responding.
It was quite foul. A lot of fear-mongering, blatantly false accusations of socialism, communism etc. And, the number of not just negative but also ignorant posts were in the hundreds, possibly thousands.
It was on the Yahoo Buzz Up boards that crop up after every article posted.
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Pinko,
Thanks for the link to Niall Ferguson presentation. Sobering stuff, and pretty much in line with my expectations, if a bit more optimistic in terms of avoiding total chaos. Huge disruption, but basically more of the same based upon different centres.
I suspect the disruption may be so great as to cause either a total collapse or a paradigmatic transition, but we shall see.
Peace and holding on tight.
ed
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130. Sevenslave.
Seven years in Godforsaken Afghanistan.
Three more of our boys came home today.
139. Happy "without trains". LOL.
141. Dark Side: An interesting post of a viewpoint not often seen here.
151. Malcolm, 155. Guns. 160 Gary.
More nit picking. Guns, thanks for 155. The thing is though, the critical development was the cavity magnetron, which permitted fn >3MHz, and therefore centimetric wavelengths. The Wikipedia link does not mention "Instruments of Darkness" by Alfred Price, a rare and interesting book, or "A race on the edge of time", not nearly as good a book.
As for the classic beauty of the P-80, well, true enough. But as for another jet aircraft whose entry into service was delayed, and that was then mis-employed as a bomber: see the breathtakingly beautiful Me-262 Swalbe at Wright-Paterson AFB, with a sectioned single spool gas turbine. Only the magic elliptical wing of the Spitfire is more entrancing.
165. Bienvenue - There is a calendar put out by DeWry that has an amazing list of inventions. You may enjoy it.
167. MAII. Yes, I love this kind of stuff. The US won the war, all by itself, bailed everybody out, nobody else did anything.
The US was at war 3 years, 6 months, and 1 day to VE day. The UK was at war 5 years, 8 months and 4 days.
Britain, alone, out produced Germany in aircraft from 1940 onward, and continued for a very long time under exceedingly difficult circumstances. Yes, indeed, "Some chicken. Some neck."
For a surprisingly long time Canada and Australia were the second and third most populous nations at war against Germany. Canada's volunteer enlistment was the highest in the world in both wars. Australia and New Zealand were similar. There is a reason why the west wall of the Senate is dominated by a painting of the cloth hall at Ypres.
Canada, Australia and New Zealand fed, clothed, armed, and died for, Britain far out of proportion to the sizes of their respective populations. Canada, alone, had a thousand heavy bombers fall over Northwest Europe, with a population at the time roughly 1/18 of the US.
In proportion to population, Canada's death toll in WWI would have been the equivalent of roughly 1.4 million Americans; in WWII, roughly equivalent to 800,000 Americans. For Australia and New Zealand the numbers would be approximately the same, if not worse.
And all these numbers are very, very small indeed as compared to the Soviet Union: 20 - 25 m dead. Unimaginable.
The industrial might of the US turned the tide decisively in the war, but that is no reason to mock or belittle the efforts of your allies. We honour America's war dead as our own, as do our allies. I have visited many military cemeteries in Western Europe. It is always humbling. There was no monopoly on effort - or suffering - in either war.
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173, Interested -
Thank you for that.
Sadly, I think if you did a survey you would find that most Americans believe that WWII started in December of 1941. That is if they could give you a date at all. And like MAII they seem to think that the U.S. won the war practically single-handedly.
Is this lack of education, I wonder, or sheer egotism and obstinacy?
I find it so embarrassing.
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Free trade has an ideal that equal trade between partners is the goal. This is the greatest laugh in the world. Free trade by the US government and the corporations mean larger profits useing American tax dollars and being paid for with American consummer dollars. This lie needed one key item to make it work, American consummers making enough money to pay the bill. Mr. Clintons idea that America would be a knowlege/idea industry failed. America became a consummer state and not and industrial one. We no longer added value to the products we sold and were not allowed to use the energy we have at home so the balance of wealth flowing out finally killed the golden goose.
Simply put your politicians and business leaders have tried to destroy this nation. What happened is we are down while the rest of the world is flat on its back!
HereMr. President is what is needed! Allow the falure of the banks and insurance companies. Control the oil and power companies while allowing the car companies to reset under federal wage and directions guidelines. Set up electrical transportation ising the rail lines to cut by one half the need to drive on the coasts. All new semi tractors have to be gas/electric with twenty miles per gallon of fuel usage. Allow/finance competions for electrical vehicals that will be built and used. Start the greatest space race you have ever seen. A space staion by 2010, moon city by 2011 and deep space travel by 2012. Rebuild the roads but also rebuild the military equipment we will need in 2014 to protect our selves from war. More importantly call for real ideas from the people of America instead of useing the ideas that have lead the US into this dangerous place. You may wqant to rethink the education of the people who now serve you. After all if they have been educated in the same schools that have produced the thinking that lead this nation to the edge of a depression they may not have one new idea to get us out.
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129 St. D.
The US "Buy American" policy;
America's trade balance;
Agricultural subsidies in France; and
Absurd value of China's currency.
I was going to comment on China's mercantilist economic policy and finish the comment on "protectionism".
First, agricultural subsidies are, as a general rule, an abomination. Second, France has played that game as shamelessly, obnoxiously, and harmfully, as any country on earth. Agreed on both points.
But I don't think that the CAP has anything to do with the onset of the present crisis, although the incredibly stupid, myopic ethanol subsidies, which dramatically raised the price of food staples in developing countries all around the world may have been one of several crisis triggering events.
Second, China does practice a mercantilist trade policy, and it has been harmful. But the chief sufferer from that policy, in the long run, will probably be China. Already some of those chickens are coming home to roost.
Also, keep in mind that China has some very difficult social problems of its own to solve - what would you do with an internal migrant population of 250 - 300 m? How would you handle more unemployed than the entire population of California? Don't kid yourself, governing China is a difficult high wire act.
Although we sometimes have trouble thinking of China as a friend and ally, rather than an ascendant rival to be feared, China has tried to help America on many occasions, principally by financing America's debts long past the point where it made sense to do so. (Other nations have done this, too.) The Chinese tend to like subtlety, and they sometimes like to do things that are quietly helpful to America, without being noticed.
Lastly, it has been deliberate American policy to encourage the economic blossoming of China. Clinton advanced this policy significantly, but I do not believe he originated it. China tends to see itself as a force for good (and order) in the world, although perhaps not in exactly the same terms as we might understand it. Aiding China, and India, to become more prosperous, to lift 40% of the planet's population out of poverty, is a laudable objective. It is the kind of effort worthy of a great nation.
Winning the cold war without firing a shot in central Europe, and turning old enemies into new friends, is an achievement of generalship and statemanship of the highest order. Avoiding future conflicts by incorporating China (and India) into a prosperous world trading system, would, if successful, likewise be an accomplishment of Generalship and Statemanship to match anything ever achieved at Blenheim, Trafalgar, Waterloo, Kursk, or Midway. It is the kind of thing worthy of a great nation. It is the kind of thing done my men of vision and wisdom.
The thing is, we know the price Germany paid when 70m Wessis paid for unification with 17m Ossis. Now consider the spending power of 300m Americans as the locomotive pulling 1.3B Chinese out of $1/day poverty. It was never going to be an easy task.
China should have let its currency rise somewhat more quickly. But when you are addicted to high speed, export led growth, and you fear social unrest if you turn off the tap, letting the currency rise isn't risk free, either.
China should have encouraged greater domestic consumption, to reduce its overwhelming reliance on exports. However, in a culture that worships hard work and saving, extravagant short term consumption is going to take a back seat to steady, careful asset accumulation for a long time.
And now, the overreliance on exports, and the discouragement of domestic consumption has left China without a safety net when the demand for exports dried up.
A mature western economy would not have done this. But it is a bit much to expect out of a country that is trying to climb out of 80 years of poverty.
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176, Interested: " . . . the incredibly stupid, myopic ethanol subsidies, which dramatically raised the price of food staples in developing countries all around the world may have been one of several crisis triggering events"
Both my local mechanic and the service guy at a Toyota dealership have told me that the reason my gas mileage in my Yaris has dropped from 40-42 mpg a year ago to 32-35 mpg now is because of the increased amount of ethanol in the gasoline.
When I questioned someone recently about the counter-productiveness of using ethanol if it decreases gas mileage, I was told that this doesn't matter because ethanol is a renewable resource, unlike oil. But I wonder what effect this will have not only on food prices, as you mention, but on food availability in those developing countries. I understand this is already becoming a problem. It seems that we are taking food out of the mouths of children to put it into our gas tanks, and with the lower mpg we'll need more and more of it. Are people going to starve so that we can keep on driving?
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St. D, cont'd
Now let's look at the American side of that equation.
America has a huge ($ 811 B) trade imbalance, not only with China ($ 250B), but almost everybody else - notwithstanding that the US is the world's second largest exporter (after the EU).
This is not because others do not trade "fairly". It is because America's choices are skewed toward consumption rather than savings. Credit in America was too cheap for far too long:
because foreigners kept buying up US debt;
because mortgage interest is tax deductible;
because income earned on savings is taxed;
because health care is absurdly borne disproportionately by manufacturers, rather than general taxation;
because the use of credit is implicitly cross-subsidized by non-credit users (the price of credit is built into the price of all goods and services, and is borne by those who use and do not use credit alike).
and no doubt other reasons as well.
All of these things have contributed mightily to America's unsustainable trade deficit.
I would add two or three other things, too.
First, re-districting in America has become such a bad joke that death due to natural causes is more likely to end a politician's career than defeat at the polls. It is ridiculous that in a watershed election like 2008 only 20 seats in a 435 seat house changed hands. It should have been a landslide - a hundred seats or more.
This has driven moderate consensus builders out, and hobbled America's ability to deal with pressing political problems.
To the extent possible, there should be no safe seats for incumbents. America could fix this problem at very little financial cost - but a lot of Turkeys in Congress would have to vote in favour of Thanksgiving.
Second, while America continues to have very good Universities, its system of public primary and secondary education is not up to the mark, and has not been for 30 years or more.
Third, there is a notion of entitlement that is a cancer. Why should a Chinese or a Korean, who has worked like stink to succeed in school, and who works bloody hard at his job, who is honest, and who obeys the law, not expect to earns just as much and live just as well as an American (or a Canadian, for that matter) who plays video games all night, can't find Russia on the map, thinks 40 hours is a long week, and never reads a book from one year's end to the next? What makes us entitled to live like kings and consume a groosly disproportionate share of the world's resources, while the rest of the world struggles in poverty?
Fourth, America lacks an effective public broadcasting service like the BBC or the CBC. Americans by and large are not very often exposed to hard, uncomfortable news, unless they really go looking for it. Instead they get a feel-good informational junk food diet of CNN, Fox, and infomercials.
These are the origins of America's trade deficit, not unfair trading practices by foreigners.
But these are uncomfortable truths, and it is much easier to villify foreigners. We have a lot of the same problems in Canada, and we are in denial, too. At least we had a decade of pretty good government to balance the books for a bit.
The assumption that protectionism is going to solve these problems reminds me of the time the Doctor said that one cure might work "just as well as rubbing a potato on your neck." It has nothing to do with the underlying causes of the problem.
All protectionism is going to do is cause the economy to shrink even faster - and right now we already have severe deflation in several sectors of the economy, particularly manufacturing. But go ahead, strangle the economy even further.
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bere54 #174
Don't worry, we have a similar problem with history and the majority of the population on this side of the pond. I think it is mainly due to the influence of the television and film industries, which seem to be where far too many people, like a high-profile poster on these threads, get their information and so-called "knowledge". Even the BBC is guilty in too many productions where it changes fact for fiction "in the interests of dramatic effect", with the result that real history is trashed. A recent production about the Tudors springs to mind as a good example. They saw it on TV though so it must be true.
I can understand Hollywood making a film which concentrates on a small portion of history in which, for example, America or Americans were prominant. That unfortunately translates in the popular mind to meaning that ONLY America or Americans were involved. Where I get annoyed is when they take genuine history and alter it to portray Americans as the major protagonists, as in U501 (or whatever it was called). I think that is simply childish, America has enough inspiring history of its own without claiming that of other nations.
Even politics is guilty of re-writing history. Ask any American (and probably Brit too) about the Battle of the Bulge in 1944 and they will tell you that it was a purely American versus German affair. In fact, 90,000 British troops were involved, and there is good evidence that they slowed the advance sufficiently for the inexperienced American troops who had been routed by the initial assault to be reorganised. Taking nothing away from the gallant defiance at Bastogne by American forces, the story is now all about the "Bastards at Bastogne". The crucial British contribution was airbrushed from history because of bad blood between Monty and Eisenhower, and the typically indiscrete comments made by Monty about the quality of some Americans involved. Best way to smooth that over was to revise what happened. Just one small example of how people interested in real history have to look beneath the surface for facts rather than accept myth.
For the avoidance of doubt, the comments I have made about British inventions was purely in response to the absurd posting by one individual; they shouldn't be seen as an attempt to claim any type of one-upmanship. In fact, it has always been my belief that the majority of the modern world's greatest inventions and discoveries (not all of course, but still an impressive majority) have been made by the Anglo-Saxon (ie English speaking) countries. Many "American" inventions / discoveries have been the work of Britons working there, and the same applies in reverse. I include other English speaking countries like Canada, Australia etc in this belief. Many an Antipodean or American accent can be heard in the research buildings of Oxbridge universities. Does that make their discovery "British"? Far better for us all that we work together rather than against each other.
Nevertheless, the impressive list at #165 is open to considerable debate about accuracy; even a cursory glance reveals sveral items with which I could take issue. No dispute about the hula hoop though - that is truly all-American, for which we thank you.
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Bere,
Yes. Past and present included...Oilraq and Pipelinistan are simply the most recent examples.Foreigner, Indeed, but if by "prosperous" you mean the achievement of "Western" level of consumption, it will be a pyrrhic victory of the highest order. A review of the legal background may be informative. It might be much wiser to learn from them than to assume we have something to teach.
Peace and Contentment
ed
Small country, few people -
Hundreds of devices,
But none are used.
People ponder on death
And don't travel far.
They have carriages and boats,
But no one goes on board;
Weapons and armor,
But no one brandishes them.
They use knotted cords for counting.
Sweet their food,
Beautiful their clothes,
Peaceful their homes,
Delightful their customs.
Neighboring countries are so close
You can hear their chickens and dogs.
But people grow old and die
Without needing to come and go.
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158. bere54 wrote:
"Does anyone know who is actually moderating these blogs? Is the job outsourced and perhaps being performed by people who do not have a thorough understanding of the English language?"
No, but as Ed points out, some of us have come to the conclusion that overnight (GMT) the job is being done by a team somewhere that hasn't quite got a grasp of irony and relies far too much on the blunt instrument of automatic word searches . . .We have all run into this between (roughly) 8pm and 8am GMT.
That mod team definitely doesn't do jokes and takes the House Rules far too literally. . .They also don't like criticism of themselves. . .
(I was once referred, splendidly, I thought, for supposedly being 'defamatory' -- about myself! It's one reason I took up with the squirrels . . .)
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165.BienvenueEnLouisiana wrote:
"Sense we are talking about what the USA did and did not invent, I have here a list of American Inventions"
I don't think some -- an Abrams tank? Do you know why they are called 'tanks"? -- strictly count as "inventions".
And I always thought the actual inventor of the steam engine, the aeolipile, was Hero of Alexandria.
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I am going out & may be some time.
"Moldova suporting a work out there".
This will be my last post.
I have so enjoyed reading posts from all over our small world.So many talented folk out there.
God bless one and all.....
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Gordon Brown has no right to speak against American protectionism. His policy of devaluing sterling since the outset of the global recession is British protectionism in its purest form. Brown is a hypocrit, and British politicians should learn to practice what they preach.
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Time to finish this one up.
175. Wiliiam1950, no, free trade does not mean equal trade.
Free trade means trade that is economically efficient because it is not affected by artificial political distortions. It is not necessarily equal at all. It is, however, trade that permits the parties to decide which exchanges are to their benefit. In the jargon of economics, each party is free to make choices that maximize their economic utility.
When trade is unequal, that is often an indicator that there are disparities in levels of productivity and exchange rates that need to be resolved.
177. bere
I should know the answer to this, but I am sorry it was too long ago, and I just don't remember. I wouldn't have thought such a big difference would have come from a 10% mix of ethanol. Are you comparing operation at the same temperatures? Is it the same mix of city and highway driving?How's your tire pressure? Has the car been tuned recently? Are the pucks moving properly and smoothly in your disc brake calipers?
179. Re: Inventions. Well, the English are great innovators, but there is no linguistic monopoly on innovation. It may be that the impression you have reflects the fact the Britain and the US had early and comparatively sophisticated patent laws. (And despite the efforts of the Bush administration and a number of large electronics companies to castrate the US Patent system, as far as I am aware the US still has the best patent system on earth.)
In the physical sciences we revere our predecessors, because advances are incremental, and come from everywhere. Innovation is the birthright of all humans. "I could not have achieved what I have done if I did not stand on the shoulders of giants".
180. Ed, and 177 Bere,
Yes, sadly, I agree with Ed. Not only are people going to die, many people already have. This is what Darfur is about, too.
180. Ed.
Agreed. The western level of consumption is unsustainable. But I think it is possible to have a high level, sophisticated economy without despoiling the planet. Using energy as a proxy for resource consumption generally, the ratio of energy input to GDP output has been falling in developed economies for a long, long time. You and I do not agree entirely on this, but I do believe that we can reduce our resource consumption to sustainable levels and still live comfortably, if not very comfortably. It will take effort, and self-discipline, but it can be done. I remain fundamentally optimistic that humans are basically good, not evil, and have the ability to work together for the common good once they understand the nature of the problem.
I don't think it is so much that we have somthing to teach, but perhaps that we have something to share.
183. ukwales. "I am going out, and may be some time". Homage. Yes, humans can be brave, and selfless.
And now to the closing comment on protectionism.
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TO PARAPHRASE, DR. Ernesto Zedillo,
Protectionism could derail recovery efforts.
What we do know with certainty is that protectionism could derail all those efforts
applied on the fiscal and monetary fronts. Despite the multitude of statements
against protectionism made by leaders and their finance and trade ministers in recent
months, it would be irresponsible not to recognise that the mercantilist spectre is
knocking at everybody’s door. It hasn’t taken long to confirm again that pledges and
actions are not necessarily consistent in this crisis. Interest groups everywhere are
already working the system to take advantage of the global recession and advance
their protectionist agendas, something they haven’t been able to do for a full generation.
BEWARE THE IDES OF MARCH!
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Defend the multilateral trading system.
It's one of humanity's greatest assets.
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165
Wow what a list of total rubbish(. Ie Who really wants a cloverleaf interchange when a decent roundabout would do.)
No need to reinvent the wheel to get a square.
That list is total fantasy. (robot vacuum was way before 2002 ("way "in the modern american way as in at least two weeks))
As for many of the other so called "INVENTIONS" I would suggest a look into the INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION.
Did america also invent the forge and anvil?
And onto the great use of words . to the list of not quite right.
I add the "FLASHLIGHT"
That ever useful light that momentarily dazzles then leaves one blinded in the dark.
In the UK they perfected the Flashlight and came up with the TORCH. bit like the Torches they had been carrying around since the oldest days.
Nice list TOTAL FANTASY
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Cotton gin
The gin method for seeding cotton can be traced back as far as the first century C.E. The earliest versions consisted of a single roller made of iron or wood and a flat piece of stone or wood. Evidence for this type of gin has been found in Africa, Asia, and North America. The first documentation of the cotton gin by contemporary scholars is found in the fifth century C.E. Visual evidence of the single-roller gin exists in the form of fifth-century Buddhist paintings in the Ajanta Caves in western India.
but granted the modern one was american and had nothing todo with spinning jennies and the likes.And had nothing to do with the previous enGINs made overseas by forners.
Mr witney was a class act though
"He worked as a blacksmith, and invented a nail-making machine. Whitney's dream of attending Yale College was frustrated for some years, because no college then taught or much appreciated the "useful arts.""
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And the "garbage disposal"
What a useful product....if you are a plumber.
157 BERE Noble is an old foe to me.
As crotchety and dishonest in his postings as they get.
Spellling is his fortee but not comprehension.
I say dishoneist because he posted many comments in favour of Hillary that were to say the least a little dodgy .
All very nasty about Obama. One of those chering at the PALIN rallies.
Despite his old age and servise to the country back when I have mentioned that Time passes, is good thing..
Sarcastic and two faced .
Being a GOP fan and entering duiscusions about the dem choice as f a dem was two faced.
I have for his entertainment gone through my post and added many spelling mistakes and bad punctuation.
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164 Bere .good prescription.
I have a similar view on my legalisation topic. everyone give up drink till the Gov coffers are broke then DEMAND legal.
But I'll take the protest to the health insurers as well.
Now locally the hospital that I postsed with it's lovely building.....Is laying off staff because the number of uninsured comming through the door was so high.
And NOW they want comprehensive coverage tec.
Back to they don't think of others until they need help.
That selfish generation again and those they tought values to.
And yes If you were modded rememeber that floridians are not allowed to be critisised they refer people to the mods and hate being called old.
Well Some at least.
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141 Dark side.
I like the tinfoil hat stuff, very real.I'm upgrading to lead.
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but not even a passenger American SST prototype was built or even tried. Just wooden mockups.
http://www.super70s.com/super70s/Tech/Aviation/Aircraft/SST.asp
European technology is no match for America's. On a few points here and there but on the whole, they are in different worlds.
---------
class Erroneous argument here.
America did not do it so they must have better technology in order to do nothiing.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Not at anything like the rate we'll need to see.And, it looks like the rest of the world is doing better than we are...??? (Source: EarthtrendsPossibly a more informative summary table, which I have to admit makes somewhat more reassuring reading than I expected...
We shall, of course, see.
ed
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From the table linked before, but sorted in ascending order on 2005 data (most recent)....(surprising results)
(truncated)
Energy and Resources -- Energy Intensity: Energy consumption per GDP
Units: Tonnes of oil equivalent (toe) per million constant 2000 international $
,,2005,2000,1990
"Hong Kong","HKG",74.7,91.1,116.6
"Peru","PER",82,102.3,147
"Bangladesh","BGD",83.1,94.1,126.3
"Uruguay","URY",83.9,104.9,126.6
"Colombia","COL",85.9,109.5,155.2
"Botswana","BWA",86.7,125.8,193.8
"Namibia","NAM",92.2,93.2,"#VALUE!"
"Costa Rica","CRI",93.7,103,128.7
"Ireland","IRL",94.7,129.1,229
"Morocco","MAR",97.9,105.8,110.6
"Tunisia","TUN",100.7,126.5,166.7
"Sri Lanka","LKA",100.8,121.3,168.7
"Switzerland","CHE",101.9,115.9,150.4
"Philippines","PHL",102.3,138.9,141.7
"Panama","PAN",105.2,144.7,167.8
"Dominican Rep","DOM",106.9,142,164.7
"Denmark","DNK",107,126.5,185.4
"Italy","ITA",111.1,120.3,147.4
"Argentina","ARG",114.8,138.8,197.4
"United Kingdom","GBR",117.2,147.4,209.2
"Malta","MLT",118.3,112.7,222.6
"Israel","ISR",118.4,132.9,175.3
"Greece","GRC",119.5,149.8,184.4
"Austria","AUT",122.7,126.7,172.3
"Spain","ESP",122.9,138.8,163.9
"Cambodia","KHM",125.1,181.2,"#VALUE!"
"Portugal","PRT",126.1,136,151.4
"El Salvador","SLV",128,141.2,168.8
"Europe",,130.5,155.4,219.6
"Japan","JPN",132.3,159.1,185.9
"Brazil","BRA",138.2,151.8,178.8
"Guatemala","GTM",140.9,158.1,181.7
"Turkey","TUR",141.1,176.2,211.4
"Germany","DEU",142.1,164.7,257.5
"India","IND",142.4,191.4,278.8
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191, happylaze -
A while ago there was a story on NPR about a guy who had been adamantly opposed to any kind of "socialized" medicine. He had a good job, with good health benefits, and didn't want to have to pay for deadbeats and welfare moms to have coverage.
Then he got multiple sclerosis. Had to quit working. Lost his health insurance. Lost his house due to medical bills. Can't afford a wheelchair. Has no money for meds.
And now he gets it. Now he's all for that "socialized" medicine. Now he's discovered you don't have to be a Commie, or even worse - a liberal, to favor a program that covers everyone. Even those drug-addicted teen-age deadbeat welfare moms.
It really is too bad some people just have to learn the hard way.
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195, 196 Ed: Those are great charts and tables.
Yes, we have a long, long way to go. But others are certainly leading the way, so all we have to do is learn from them.
It would be interesting to chart per capita GDP against energy intensity, and then to split it by renewables and fossil fuels. Either way, Switzerland's figure seems to suggest that you can have a good lifestyle and still have relatively low non-renewable energy intensity.
It would also be interesting to see the data charted against isodemographically weighted latitude or mean surface temperature.
Started on the closing comment on protectionism, got half way done, and had the machine crash. May try again later.
Final note for now:
Yesterday I heard a very bright teenager ask "Why should we give GM $ 40B? They are just going to waste it. There is no guarantee they are going to survive, and we [meaning his classmates] are just going to be stuck paying the bill for all this debt when we get older. I don't want to do that. Why don't they auction sell GM to the highest bidder, and put it out of its misery? Then we could use the $ 40B for building things that are going to help us in the future instead."
Well, why not? To me it's unthinkable. Yet British Leyland disappeared.
Out of the mouths of babes...
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Corrections to 173. Thought the population of the US was larger in 1917 and 1941 than it was. Not clear whether British citizens in the Dominions were counted under those countries, or under G.B.
Still, these numbers make the point eloquently enough:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
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198, Interested -
I agree with the teenager. Just let GM go. But if you say this to people, they rear back in horror and go on about the jobs lost, the dealerships that will close, the this and the that. Something will take its place. GM has failed. If no one wants to buy it, so what. Businesses come and businesses go. Even really big ones. It will not be the end of the world. You know, the dinosaurs probably thought the world would not survive without them. Or if they could think, they would have.
I'm really sick of all this money being poured into failed enterprises run by morons. Let them all fail. We'll build something new. Maybe the bright young teenagers who are disgusted with us will do better when they come of age in a few years. We don't need all the old men and all the old horses who can't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
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Batten the hatches!
"This Recession Is Broader, Deeper, More Complicated Than Virtually Anything We Have Ever Seen"
No Faeces, Sherlock!
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The list of inventions I chose was not a "total fantasy"; it was specific to the year in which the things listed were invented in America regardless of whether similar things were invented elsewhere, though I asure yall that everything on that list was infact invented by an American and patented, unless it was before the American patent office existed. If you disagree with the list, look it up; you may be surprized, eg-Thomas Godfrey's Glazier, and Joshua Lionel Cowen and Conrad Hubert's Eveready flashlight. Oh, for those those of you who cited ancient Egypt, China, or other ancient time periods, your just being rediculous. Are we going to argue over who invented the wheel or fire next?
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It was interesting to travel west across the USA and back again this past week taking two different routes. Crossing the Mississippi River was like entering a different country; on an economic level.
The full impact of the economic downturn has not hit the Plains; yet. There was more concern over the lack of snowfall this winter, then the general state of the economy.
Having grown up on a farm, I did find it interesting that I did not see the types of early spring activity associated with spring planting of crops. As a former farm boy I kept thinking, "If this were my land, I'd be out in the fields with a plow in the ground right now.", as I passed miles upon miles of fields dry enough to till.
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Ref 202 BienvenueEnLouisiana
No need to argue about those things. I invented them;-)
Sorry. Too many hours behind a windshield.
Prior to WWII we were an agrarian, rural society where neccesity was the mother of invention. We never threw away scrap metal and there were always old, out-dated farm equipment growing into the ground behing the barn. These were wonderful sources of materials that could be used to repair, adapt, and create new tools and equipment. It was often more expedient to make something yourself rather than buy it.
Now we are an urban, consumer society. I know far too many automotive assembly line workers who cannot replace the serpentine belt on the engine of their own automobile because that is not the "specialized" part of the vehicle they assemble. Instead of paying $20 for the belt and replacing it themselves at a cost of about one man-hour, they take it to a mechanic who charges them 2-3 times that amount.
We once had a wealth of people who could look at a two-foot piece of angle iron and think, "I can make something from this."
Now we have large numbers of people that cannot hook-up there own computers because they cannot visualize the process from the very easy, pictorial instructions included in the box. Literacy is not even required.
Where do we find this pool of new inventors?
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Ahh Pub me old mucker
"We once had a wealth of people who could look at a two-foot piece of angle iron and think, "I can make something from this.""
We still do if you know where to look.
http://nw-arts.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=115
Examples of what to do with angle iron.
;)
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202 when it comes to americans YES.
they are always claiming to have invented things that were not theirs.
They may invent ways to con people into buying them but not invent . and the train was quite definitely not an american invention despite your claims.
America at that time could not even produce quality wrought iron and had to get it in from abroad.
Go check on Henry Cort and puddling. or some of those true inventions . not adaptations of the same thing like the hat fan , wow good stuff. but something revolutionary like the Bessemer converters.
As for ancients from china.
again they got there before us it should be recognised.
The Gin you refered to was just a specific adaptation of similar technology from other ag equipment to cotton specifically.So an adaptation.
And it all came back to that rocket
Anyway this all started when you 'all told us Brits how you invented everything and gave nothing to america. it seems.
In answer to that ,evidence was given and now yo'all wanna beach about it.
Interested
And leyland disappeared in part because of that old trick of buy it up let them get all comfy with their new management tehn close it down and pulll manufacturing back to the home country.
All countries if they are going to be foolish enough to commit to a car culture should retain someway of making sure they don't get led up the american path of "wow it gets 20 MPG so it is efficient".
But then Nationalisation is a dirty word.
Unless you are talking banks, or greed.
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Ref 205 happylaze
I have to admit the forms in the link are far more artistic than anything I ever made out of an old hunk of angle iron:-)
Maybe lacking in utility. But certainly more artistic. Something worthy of banging swords into, at any rate!
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207 I could do them in the angle for a truck rack;)
Better than the shiny girl sitting back, so many truckers have.;)
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Ok; the invention of the steam locomotive seems to be a sticking point for many on this blog, but I wonder if yall have ever hear of John Fitch of Philadelphia? John Fitch, not Richard Trevithick of England, was in fact the first to invent the steam railway locomotive in 1794 and it now sits on display at the Ohio Historical Society Museum.
As for the controversy over Eli Whitney's Cotton Gin, I fail to see why so many are objecting to this invention being American in origin. He invented the first modern mechanized cotton engine. The difference between the earlier versions dating back to the 1st century and Whitney's invention was so great that its productivity and profitability coined the phrase "king cotton". The difference is like comparing an Abacus to a calculator, or more precisely, an 1800s mechanical calculator.
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Ref 208 happylaze
I think you have a new business to start.
I fueled my vehicle at a number of Truck Stops along the Interstate highways this past week. It was quite amazing to see the assortment of...unusual...decor available for purchace to enhance the well-dressed semi-tractor and trailer.
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Bien,
I don't know about the wheel, but Prometheus gave us fire and Zeuss gave us Women as a "curse to balance the blessing"... (ducks)And Publius, regarding the Land
And Happy, regarding beating stuff into plowshares
Peace and the Land
ed
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publius -
If anyone wants snowfall, they can come here. Last few days, it was in the 40s and 50s, snow was beginning to melt; this morning I woke up to a heavy snowfall. Aarrggh! Still snowing out there.
And this early jump to DST - why would anyone want daylight at 7 p.m. when all you can see out the window is bare branches and snow on the ground? People here are grouchy.
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bien I was winding you up about the Gin. yes they had not invented the cotton gin in a country that had no cotton growing to test it on.
the steam loco. models are models. why was it not built?
Probably a lack of a good convertor.
Models sit in shed waiting to be found.
I get your point but you don't seem to get the other side.
try a visit to Ironbridge. lovely place.
211 ED lol
I'm in full agreement that it all comes down to them Blacksmiths dabbling where they shouldn't have.
Hunting tips OK but digging sticks?
210Pub yea I can just imagine the conversations with the customers.
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213
The reason Fitch's steam locomtion was not commercially successful was for lack of investment. Fitch reportedly lobbied for US government investment in the invention to Pres. George Washington, but nothing came of it. At the time the US was still an agrarian society and lacked the manufacturing capacity to mass produce the engines. The UK, on the other hand, had the manfacturing capacity, so they produced them and later sold them to the US.
I certainly see the other side; it is similar to the arguement about who invented the car. An American invented the steam locomtive, but it was first mass produced in Europe; a European invented the car, but the US was the first to mass produce them.
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214
fair enough.
in reply I provide the link to this
http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blsteamengine.htm
put wheels on it and it moves.
And as to the industrial revolution.
Making steel or Iron was key.
Henry Cort
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Cort
So what did the UK give the states.
The Future.
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wink
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bere54, VT and ID are just so similar. Its below freezing again, snow is coming down again, and it's due to be 1 F (-17 C) tomorrow night.
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The more I learn about Israel, the more it scares me. That is a fantastic amount of money and resources the USA is providing them, and to fight what? Some ill-trained guys with rpgs at best.
They don't need that kind of help to confound the Palestinians, nor anyone else in the Middle East.
The more I think about it, the more I pray that Obama and the Democrats find a way to reduce aid to Israel, despite AIPAC etc. The USA just doesn't have the money anymore to give away like that. And the Muslims aren't much of a threat, anymore. Most of the Palestinians just want to survive.
I bet if Israel just offered them a grub stake elsewhere, the Palestinians would leave in droves. Of course, that would be if Israel truly desires peace, despite their relentless push to gather territory and exterminate the Palestinians.
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Jeebers,
Would you? I wouldn't. It is their home, and it has been stolen.Background
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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Correction to #217. It's -9F (-23C) right now. So much for spring being just around the corner.
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Yes Ed, I know. But desperation would change attitudes quickly. If the Zionists want the land so bad and would die for it, fine. Just don't kill anymore! All that dough could just go to bribing the Muslims into leaving, then at least there wouldn't be starvation and misery...
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Um, Americans are not as familiar with many of the leaders that you have given as possible comparisons to Pres. Obama, but I understand where you are coming from. I know it is still too early to tell just how things will turn out, but the way things are headed, it appears that Pres. Obama might more accurately be compared to Pres. Warren G. Harding. The preliminary comparisons of the two Presidents' campaigns, cabinet problems, and economic troubles are startling.
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Sorry, somehow the above post got on the wrong topic board (I must have accidentally hit the back button on my browser after cutting the post to spell-check it). The post was meant for "Is Obama Drifting?".
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