The war ends - with a whimper
At camp Lejeune, North Carolina, on a balmy spring day to see the end of the Iraq war.
Frankly, it ended with a bit of a whimper.
The marines in this huge place - the biggest on America's east coast - were subdued but not upset about getting out of Iraq. The president was forceful - he keeps using the phrase "let me be clear" as if he is worrying that people are not concentrating properly - and the mission is over or at least has a firm end-date.
We are told that Mr Obama called George W Bush seconds before the speech - as a courtesy.
I asked Robert Gates, the Defence Secretary, whether he could look the outside world in the eye and say "America won!" Not a useful term, he said. Indeed.
I also asked him whether the president now accepted that the surge (which he opposed) led at least to this calm period in which an orderly withdrawal can be contemplated.
That he dodged: "You'll have to ask him!"
It is a big day anyway, not in truth a winning or losing day, but a day that history will mark as significant.
UPDATE: Take a look at my quick word with Defence Secretary Robert Gates:
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"I also asked (Gates) whether the president now accepted that the surge (which he opposed) led at least to this calm period in which an orderly withdrawal can be contemplated."
As I recall, in his interview with Bill O'Reilly, Senator Obama, as he then was, conceded that the "surge" had succeeded. Justin, you need to watch every side of the political coin, abhorrent as some of it may be.
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Let's not count our chickens just yet. There's a lot that can go wrong.
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Justin:
It is sad that the war will be ending in a whimper.....
~Dennis Junior~
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Justin, what did you expect Secretary Gates to say? We invaded Iraq on false pretenses to achieve neocon goals that had nothing to do with WMDs or bringing an unsolicited form of democracy to a country that prior to the first Gulf War, and Saddam's fateful decisions to invade Iran and later Kuwait, was an example of prosperity and stability in the Middle East.
The best we can say now is that the UN inspectors were correct in their assertion that the WMDs had been destroyed, that Saddam's army was not a threat to us, that Saddam has been removed from power and, as a result, the Iraqis can choose the best form of government to achieve their goals and aspirations, and that everything that has been destroyed can be rebuilt...except for all the lives lost.
What struck me the most during President Obama's speech at Camp Lejeune was how subdued the audience was. The only expression of jubilation took place when the President announced a pay raise for the military! The rest was just polite applause.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
What would define "winning"? Dropping a nuke, killing 100,000 people, followed by unconditional surrender by - whom? Would this avoid ending the war with a whimper?
There are very few military altercations these days where there are unqualified winners and losers. And what is wrong with that? Only bullies and children cannot bear compromises, and the latter fortunately grow out of that mindset, unless they grow up to be the former.
I'm disturbed by those who want to be able to boast "we won the war in Iraq." What would it take to satisfy them?
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I am wimpering, just looking to put this imfamous invasion behind us.
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"I'm disturbed by those who want to be able to boast "we won the war in Iraq." What would it take to satisfy them?"
Heck, I'd settle for "we survived the war in Iraq".
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I don't believe the surge worked. I believe the reason the insurgency went quieter was because an enormouis number of them were bribed to put down their arms. OK it was called a salary and many of them were meant to be working with the Iraqi government, but look at the comments from those who are not going to continue getting paid any more and it reveals a lot.
A worrying comment from Obama: "we're going to continue to protect our civilian and military operations in Iraq".
That presumably means the world's largest US embassy in Baghdad and the permanent military bases.
Anyone who thinks Iraq is settled is naive.
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It is not a whimper. It is the mourning wails of thousands for the 4,569 dead soldiers of the coalition mingled with the mourning wails of tens of thousands for the 90,000 plus confirmed, dead civilians.
It is the painful moans and cries of the countless wounded. The screams in the night as remembered terrors invade the troubled sleep of veterans.
And the war is still not over until the last soldier and civilian dies.
All this blood so an alcholic son could say, "Look what I did, Dad! I made a war just like you! Do you love me now?"
If all you hear is a whimper; then your heart is cold, your spirit is deaf.
Peace be with thee.
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9, Iraq was filled with warring tribes long before Saddam came into the picture, and it will be filled with warring tribes long AFTER we leave. Nothing has changed, really. I can only hope that the average Iraqi has decided that war is stupid, and negotiations make more sense by now.
You cannot change hearts with a gun. You gotta talk to them, convince them that there is another way. It's a slow process, but it's also the only one that will endure.
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Iraq was chosen as a target because Bush and the Neocons thought it was defenseless. Unfortunately he should have read Bendict's IMAGINED COMMUNITIES. In it he states about nationalism. He states that people will fight for their territory regardless of how they feel about its ruler. This is why the Shiites were willing and fight for their country, Iraq, against what Bush and the Neocons claimed as a liberating force.
President Obama has a lot of good will in the world. He can spend it by leaving Iraq gracefully like a dove, not like a bull in a china shop.
There is not need to say that Iraq will end in a whimper or defeat as Vietnam did. A Black face place on the Great Game will eventually face the same ending as the White face. People chafe under colonial rule. And even 21st century paternalism cannot disguise the fact of colonialism.
It is best to get out with honor under the rule of an honorable man, then to remain an overseer in a foreign land where you loose all honor. Honor is in short supply in the West.
Afghanistan, unlike Iraq, was a partner in Al Qaeda crime. It is OUR WAR. In our present economic condition, to win will be to loose because we will make the US subject to financial takeover the likes Egypt and The Sudan was in the 19th Century by England, by China. In other words the US is open to foreclosure.
Two wars cost too much in money and pride. Vietnam should have been the lesson, but when the people turned their government over to a ideologue who saw himself as a WAR PRESIDENT and not the failure he had always been in life, then all pride and soon all money soon went along with him to his political fall.
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GATES IS THE MAN!
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War is not football or rugby.
People die or they are maimed in body, mind or spirit. There are no winners. Even those who survive a war are never the same.
War is not a game. It is a human tragedy.
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#10
Publius,
You are being very unfair to alcoholics. I know several and none of them would want to be associated with George Bush.
Tipsy Sam
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Should I say that I am in shock and awed!
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Should I say that I am in shock and awed
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should I say that I am in shock and awed!
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To#10 Publiusdetroit
Eloquent!
The pain of war is too great for my words but yours have said some of it for me. I can say no more here but I thank you for your post.
Peace be with thee, as well.
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To#15 Samtyler1969
Sometimes being flippant is just not funny for those of us who have direct experience of this war.
I am sorry if I offend you but your post hurt.
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I think I am finished here.
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I guess I am not completely finished because I have a question.
Did anyone see the program on HBO recently called, I believe, "Taking Chance?" It concerned how a dead Marine's body was transported and returned to his family. I tried to watch but it was too painful for me so I had to stop.
I just wondered if any had seen this and what thoughts anyone might have. Due to the news blackout, we, as a nation have not had to see the flag-draped coffins returning home.
Thank you.
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20, aqua.
"Sometimes being flippant is just not funny for those of us who have direct experience of this war. I am sorry if I offend you but your post hurt."
We all suffer grief and death in our lives. It is the unfortunate cost of living. There is also joy and humor in our lives, which makes living worthwhile. It is unfair of you to expect people to tailor opinions and suppress their humor because you are grieving.
It is a terrible thing to lose a child, and having four myself, prefer not to think about it. We all feel for you, but I, for one, do not intend to stop laughing, simply because, at this point in time, you can't.
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Three points Justin:
Imagine the content of your reports had John McCain and Sarah Palin got into the White House. Imagine how they'd be dealing with the economy, the banks, the auto sector, Guantanamo, and Iraq.
Obama seems to have fulfilled more election pledges in his first month than Bush Junior achieved in eight years.
Saddam Hussein would have been 75 years by 2010, when troops are withdrawn, and probably dead or retired. Had he remained in power and maintained his "killing rate," there would still be fewer widows than there are today.
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There was a wonderful series in the newly defunct (as of today) Rocky Mountain News called "Final Salute" on how the Marines handle burial of their comrades. It won the Pulitzer for Feature Photography and Feature Writing. It's still available on http://www.rockymountainnews.com/special-reports/final-salute/.
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I see a great deal of partsianship and pettiness in Obama.
He refuses to give credit for the surge.
And Justin why can't you acknowledge the benefits of the liberation of Iraq as part of the war on terrorism.
Iran, Al Quada, Hezbollah and Hams still need to be dealt with
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Aquarizonagal
My dear Asdzaa Nadleehe. I am calling to the coyote for you. Maybe he can brighten your spirit.
Cannot promise that I will find him. I am finishing my packing for a trip to Wyoming to be in the mountains and spend some time with Black Elk. Leaving tomorrow morning.
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If the main objective of this war was to kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, cripled tens of thousands of people, precipitate a huge migration to neighboring countries, destroy the infrastructure of what was once a relatively prosperous country, and destabilize the Persian Gulf region to improve the image of an intellectually challenged US President to guarantee his re-election, I would say this was a highly successful crusade. No whimpering there.
On the other hand, if the intent was to stabilize the region, bring democracy to people who don't want it, and impose our values on a culture that regard ours as evil, I would say this crusade was a dismal failure.
The only way to evaluate the success or failure of unprovoked conflicts like this is by assessing the results in terms of lives lost (Iraqis and coalition), soldiers and civilians crippled, destruction of infrastructure, loss of livelihood, radicalization of moderate Islamic elements, and the long-term de-stabilization of an entire region.
Frankly, instead of whimpering I think we should all celebrate the end of a most unfortunate episode in our troubled history.
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26, ubermensch.
"Iran, Al Quada, Hezbollah and Hams still need to be dealt with."
I would like to figure out a way to deal with you.
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To#25 Andypost
Thank you for the link!
What a wonderful series and it seems sad that none of our news papers here covered the personal cost of war so well except for two or three people.
Sorry to see the Rockey Mountain News gone but I believe that news papers will all soon become extinct. It is the way of progress to change the way we will see the world.
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To#27 Publiusdetroit
Safe journey!
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To Allmymarbles
Pfhttus!!
That's a raspberry and if I had no sense of humor left I would not still be reading this blog.
War is not healthy for children and other living things.
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28, saint.
Well said. Right on the button.
32, aqua.
You conveniently misunderstand what I was saying.
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Ref 26 MagicKirin
Magic, old boy! You forgot the leading terrorist organization in the Middle East. The organization that started the use of terror as a weapon. Eretz Israel.
I am all in favor of blocking funding and arms to terrorist organizations. We should let the Israelis use their own brave, blood-thirsty troops to conquer the lands of Eretz Israel instead of being their mercenary armed forces.
Press, November 16, 2000.
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#21. aquarizonagal: "I think I am finished here."
If we all had a dollar for the times you've written that phrase we'd be rich!
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Ref 15 SamTyler1969
Tipsy Sam,
Yeah. I know. My Grandfather would not have liked King George the Younger neither. He would have been doing war dances for the past eight years:)
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1. Rhetorical question: how does every post on Middle East policy turn into Israelis v. Palestinians?
2. By my understanding, 35-50K troops will be remaining behind after the general withdrawal until the 2011 everybody out date. But on NPR tonight, there was speculation from sources in (or previously in) the Pentagon, that the U.S. would have to renegotiate the withdrawal agreement to keep troops in Iraq longer. It kinda makes the unequivocal withdrawal suddenly seem much more equivocal.
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Ed (by any other name...)
I know you're lurking out there somewhere. I just want to thank you for that link you posted on another thread. Of course you know I've been lifting quotes from it all night:0
Hope you don't mind. It is such a lush field; ripe for the picking.
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37, Via.
"Rhetorical question: how does every post on Middle East policy turn into Israelis v. Palestinians?"
I keep trying to keep the focus on the Middle East as a whole. The Israel/Palestinian thing is merely a blip on the screen. I think the problem is that people don't know much about the area, except for Israel/Palestine and Iraq somewhat. If the knowledge isn't there, they can't very well address it.
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Ref. 26
"He refuses to give credit for the surge."
I'm almost positive he admitted that it was a good strategic move in one the debates. He certainly didin't dwell on it though. ; )
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"Jeebers76", try your "diplomacy" idea in Afghanistan or northwest Pakistan. You could live your last moments like Daniel Pearl.
"saintDominick", we (USA - Reagan) provided the WMD to Iraq so they could thump the Iranians (common enemy #1). Iraq used their own WMD on the Kurds.
By Bush-II, Iraq and the Islamic jihad had a common enemy, ..., the U.S. If Iraq retained ANY WMD, the Islamic jihad would be happy to deliver to the U.S.A.
Do you seriously think we would report, "We found the WMD, and it said, 'Made in the U.S.A.'"?
Most assuredly, our leaders will not tell you what was or was not found. We report "failure" when it is our strategic advantage for our enemies to think it is.
Evidently, Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld did not anticipate Iranian involvement.
It is evident Obama will never be called upon to say. "America won."
It is Iran and NOT Obama that will say, "We Won!"
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I suspect in four years, Obama will address the lowliest nation in the world as "Our equals!".
Give him eight years, and we see him talking to himself, we will learn that he is actually conversing with the "leader of the lowliest nation in the world".
If it is his intent to kill unborn children and support the Islamic jihad with time and inaction, I commend him. (reversing Bush's abortion policy and announcing our retreat so jihad can get back on track)
If it is his intent to render the American Government insolvent and dis functional, I commend him. (tripling the deficit spending in one year, $3.6 Trillion budget)
If it is his intent to continue to destroy America's ability to produce goods and services, I commend him. (shift taxes to punish initiative and success; add regulations to inhibit operations; and reward the unproductive from the productive)
(Do not be fooled by the "tax breaks" in his propaganda. Under Pelosi and Reid, any revenues lost by a tax reduction must be balanced by a tax revenue increase elsewhere. Specifically, this is the reason I closed my business the hour he signed his "package" and made the remarks I did.)
FDR borrowed money and built roads and bridges. So did that other guy in Berlin.
It took a war to create sufficient demand, and debt to fund the production to restart the American economy.
Judging from the other guy, it appears you also have to win the war for it to work.
The Obama economists seemed to have missed a chapter in their studies. I do wonder if Obama will also sit on the fantail of the USS Potomac and dole out public funds to his friends and political supporters.
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"1. Rhetorical question: how does every post on Middle East policy turn into Israelis v. Palestinians?"
Well, it is major problem for the region. Also, I think we've talked about Afghanistan and Pakistan a fair amount.
"2.... there was speculation from sources in (or previously in) the Pentagon, that the U.S. would have to renegotiate the withdrawal agreement to keep troops in Iraq longer. It kinda makes the unequivocal withdrawal suddenly seem much more equivocal."
The situation did clear up remarkably quickly. I was completely wrong about where the situation was heading myself. I can hardly believe how well its going (judging by civilian casualties -- which are much better but still unacceptable). Why did Iran stop? They had us in a really bad situation. Was it because they were afraid al Qaeda might get a foothold right next door?
So, yes, I, too, am wondering whether such a quick withdrawal will work. The Iraqis are starting to think they can do it (the BBC's coverage on this has been excellent, BTW). I'm hopeful, but I'm not surprised that some military men are doubtful. They saw a lot of bad things.
Withdrawal is not an irreversible decision. You can't telegraph what you're thinking of doing to your enemy and we do have enemies.
I would very much like it to happen, though.
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"Saddam Hussein would have been 75 years by 2010, when troops are withdrawn, and probably dead or retired."
Wow, the concept of Uday or Qusay in power is truly frightening. Thos two were messed up.
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"GATES IS THE MAN!"
Yes, I agree that he's a good Secretary of Defense. Such a contrast with the last one!
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Justin:
There is a conference coming in Geneva as reported here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7916191.stm
Who organized this conference?
The walkout by the US from the conference in South Africa was the propaganda set-up and the trigger for the 9/11 attacks. It was the last straw and self-justification in the twisted mindset of the bin Laden folks. It was what led, the following day to the murder of Ahmad Shah Massoud, and, when his death had been confirmed, to the green light for the attack on the World Trade Center.
Who organized this conference? Is the US going to be on its highest level of security alert during and after the conference ?
They seek to test Obama now, when the US is at its most vulnerable. This is Al Queda laying down another marker.
Who organized this conference?
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"?If we thought that instead of 200
Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would
put an end to the fighting at a stroke,
we would use much more force...."
... but we [they, the Istaelis] won't, because it won't put an end to the fighting..
He's explaining why the Israelis don't kill more Palestinians, isn't he?
It would be nice if someone reminded him of what he said, especially in light of the recent IDF actions in Gaza.
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"Who organized this conference?"
It's called the U.N. Conference Against Racism, so obviously its the U.N. If you're asking who's behind it, its the OIC, or Organization of the Islamic Conference. The U.S. and Canadian objection is that it unfairly singles out Israel.
The date of the 2001 Conference, 9/8/2001 is interesting, but I think al Qaeda had chosen 9/11 long before the conference. My understanding is that they knew that 911 was the number for emergency services.
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Response to AndyPost (#8).
Right on, Andy! It is perhaps enough to have survived it. '
'Winning is no longer pertinent, it is not appropriate nor possible. But perhaps survival also is no longer enough.
I only wish more could have made the claim. I hurt for the Iraqi civilians, for the children, for those whose deaths and torture have shamed us. And I hurt for us sunk so low, degraded by so much. How could 'Winning' be possible? Consider the nature of the debt incurred, to whom and by whom and for what--and I don't mean financial debt--through the mere act of our presence in Iraq and the manner of its happening. Consider the seeds sown, the fruit already borne... Consider the impact on days still to come... No, there are no winners in this or any war--in different ways, we're all losers with long debts left to the children of a doubtful future to settle and repay.
My father, who lived through both World Wars and remembered the world they left behind, used to say, 'It is the nature of war to change the future it leaves behind.' Life as it was before each war was degraded by what came after. And I myself can testify to the world as it was before and after WWII. I wonder what the world will be like 20 years from now but I'm glad I'll not be here to see.
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Response to PubliusDetroit (#10):
As long as there are those who feel and think and tell it as you do, the world of corrupted mistaken and sorry human deeds shall be redeemed. I thank you for your words and the sentiments they reveal. Do, I plead, continue to share your thoughts and heart with us. All of us on all sides need to hear...
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"Sorry to see the Rockey Mountain News gone but I believe that news papers will all soon become extinct. It is the way of progress to change the way we will see the world."
I'm heart-broken. The News has been my paper for 27 years. The sun will come up tomorrow, but for the first time in 150 years, the Rocky won't be there to cover it.
Four Pulitzers in the last eight years, and we're just throwing it away.
We must find a way of compensating journalists. We desperately need these guys. They're the only ones who can uncover governmental fraud, and I'm afraid there'll be a good deal of it here in the near future.
\
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12 marygrav
I think you should face the fact that the U.S. was digging itself into a financial hole long before Bush, 9/11, and the two wars showed up. It was neglecting the fundamentals before the Japanese made their entry into the auto market, even then continuing to build sub-standard vehicles as sales of U.S. cars declined. Other products declined and many of those that didn't were sold to foreigners. Among many other companies, Lear (executive jets) was sold off. Even Hoover is now owned by an Malaysian company.
Capitalism had gone off the rails and both corruption and greed played a major role. Trade unions with their absurd demands added to the mess. Behind most of this has been rejection of a moral compass and with that loss of a sense of what is decent and fair, often replaced by a spirit of 'entitlement'
no matter how unproductive and lazy an individual. Greed and selfishness has become rampant and while unions got their pound of flesh for over-paid workers, in banks low-paid tellers and clerks, without benefits, have facilitated the disgusting salaries and bonuses to which arrogant CEOs imagine they are entitled. Contributing to that circumstance has been useless boards of directors that look after themselves. Only conceit, arrogance and rampant greed has made such a circumstance possible.
Obama can waffle on with fine sounding words to his heart's content about Americans being capable of achieving anything they choose, and America emerging from this financial mess - to a large extent (as allmymarbles reminded us) through Bill Clinton de-regulating the financial industry - 'stronger than before'.
What he won't and cannot with his mindset and that of pathetic cohorts such as shrew Nancy Pelosi and weedy Harry Reid replace, is the lost spirit that produced exceptional drive, values that (with shortcomings granted) determine what is decent and fair. And he won't replace the lost pride and national unity, and without these qualities the country is headed one way, down the drain to become just another socialist also ran.
The socialist spirit, expecting government to do things for citizens that they should do for themselves, didn't make America great. A spirit of independence and creativity did, and those qualities socialism usually does not produce. This is not to suggest that something should not have been done long ago about the healthcare system, but once the U.S. has emersed itself deeply in the socialist system that, I believe, Obama has in mind, it will subside into nothing more than one of those relatively pleasant but spiritless European non-entities.
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In Steinbeck's posthumous 'The Acts of King Arthur and His Noble Knights', a retelling of Malory, Lancelot asks Kay how he lost his prowess in battle. Kay, Arthur's senechal, said it was the numbers - the xviii's and mciiii's that like ants running across the parchment ate away his courage. A manager must know the cost and count of everything, and provide for every detail, for every guest, for every hog, goose, and keg. The habit of mind forced Arthur's earliest champion to understand too well the risks of battle and tournament, so that he could not fight with the necessary abandon and confidence. Lancelot, who was the paragon of knightly prowess and of chivalry, put on Sir Kay's armor (OK - armour, so there), and had a great lot of fun and adventure in it.
I fear there will never again be victory in war. We know too much, and have learned the habit of looking under every lapel pin and button to see what is really lurking there.
We are wiser, and probably safer, but we are also become petty in the meanest sense.
KScurmudgeon
who now regrets what he does for a living
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re 51 robloop,
Excellent!
I wonder how many of the socialists can even stomach reading your spirited piece all the way through. I get into trouble when I talk about the spirit of Texas in a similar tone.
You may or may not be correct about Pres. Obama's intentions. It certainly seems that way, but we haven't sorted his work out from Nancy's, just yet. I catch a steady pattern of comments from his mouth that give me reason to hope that Mr. O agrees with your vision more than he does with, say, LBJ's or Teddy's.
We shall see.
KScurmudgeon
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45 Interestedforeigner
"Who organized this conference?" I highly respect your opinions and am a little concerned about this post. I even double checked that you wrote it. Are you suggesting we should "batten the hatches?"
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54. timewaitsfornoman wrote:
45 Interestedforeigner
"Who organized this conference?" I highly respect your opinions and am a little concerned about this post
Can't see why. You can read the UN document in full if you look at www.un.org/durbanreview2009.
In fact if Osama Bin Laden was invited, he'd probably boycott it because it calls on countries to assure freedom for all religions . . .
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53. KScurmudgeon wrote:
re 51 robloop,
I wonder how many of the socialists can even stomach reading your spirited piece all the way through
I did. And a right load of rubbish it is too.
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#51
American conveniently misrepresents socialism shocker!
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Once again a clear bias in the choice of factors to focus on here.
Many commentators seem to ascribe the improvement in Iraq to other factors than he surge pe se. Apparently the local insurgents were becoming antagonistic to the Al Qaeda fighters. And the Awakening that involved US paying many of the insurgents not to fight. What percentage of the improvement was a result of the surge seems to be open to question.
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ref 329
To deal with me, you would need an open mind. An attribute you have demonstated that you do not have.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
President Clinton should not have signed the Gramm-Leach-Bliley bill that passed the Senate with a bipartisan 90-8 vote, but blaming an embattled President for going along with what had been the mantra of Republicanism since the Reagan era is a bit misleading.
That de-regulation bill was one of several pieces of legislation designed to marginalize government and it is not solely responsible for the financial collapse we are now facing. Out of control spending, debt, and bad investments, such as Bank of America purchasing a bankrupt Merrill Lynch, have more to do with the Wall Street collapse than de-regulation.
Our biggest problem, which we conveniently ignore, is our sense of entitlement, our dependence on credit, our refusal to save for a rainy day, and the subsequent accumulation of debt at all levels of our society which preclude us from paying for the services we get, and making the investments we need, without borrowing from foreign creditors.
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I THINK THE WAR WILL FINALLY END WITH A BIB "BANG" THAT IS THE DANGER. THE AREA WILL TURN INTO A SERIES OF CIVAL WARS WHEN THE TRADITIONAL COLONIAL BOUNDRIES ARE LOST. THIS IS ALL WONG, IT IS A BAD, SELFISH ROAD TO TAKE NOW. WE STARTED TO MAKE THE NATION WHOLE AND LET IT WORK. JUST SEE WHAT HAS HAPPENED! CAN YOU IMAGINE IRAQ WITHOUT THE US AND UK?
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Blaming President Bush for his decision to attack and invade Iraq is fair game, but blaming him or President Obama for the illogical national composition of Iraq is disingenous. Whether we want to admit it or not, religion and traditions play a more important role in the Middle East than political priorities and creating a nation composed of sects that can not live alongside each other is a recipe for disaster.
Iraq should be allowed to become three separate sovereign states to accomodate the three largest segments of its population, or it should become a country with Autonomous Communities, similar to the Spanish model, to provide a semblance of unity while allowing for the preservation of values and traditions embraced by distinct groups whose only affinity is ethnicity.
The third option is a strong man, an option that we enthusiastically embraced for decades until it became convenient to remove him to achieve domestic geo-political and economic short term goals.
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ref #45
Would the moderators explain when you criticize the U.N or the corruption the post is removed?
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Exactly, publiusdetroit : All this blood so an alcholic son could say, "Look what I did, Dad! I made a war just like you! Do you love me now?" We elected an adolescent buffoon to lead the free world - and we got exactly what we deserved : the judgmental wisdom of a cretin. (thanks to all GW's fellow Southern and Christan right idiots!)
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One war ends ?? with a whimper, but others continue....
LOL! A flyswatter is better.Majik,
Just testing? Yeah! Right!
Peace is possible, but many don't want it
;-(
ed
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I speculate that ending the invasion of Iraq involves a release by the US of an oil/pipeline stranglehold - have to let go to leave, then it's much simpler - like the monkey with his fist in the jar holding a banana.
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Justin: Considering that the US, under President Bush, Darth Cheney and the neo-cons, dragged a so-called "coalition of the willing"-- which included poor PM Tony Blair-- to war in Iraq under false pretenses and with false intelligence, I should think you would be delighted to see President Obama extricate us under any circumstance at all.
Don't forget: Iraq was an excuse, a smokescreen and a ruse for the neo-cons to take the pressure off when they couldn't immediately find Osama bin Ladin and Mullah Omar in Afghanistan...and when the Afghanis -- historically (although the neo-cons arrogantly never read about Alexander or the British Raj) most resistant to conquerers of any stripe -- maintained their standoffish, insular, tribal customs in the face of our stupid efforts at democritization and nation building.
It doesn't work in Iraq very well, either, btw, so breaking our collective arms patting ourselves on the backs because they held elections doesn't mean we "won" anything. We shouldn't have been there in the first place and, as long as we don't repeat the scramble on the roof of the Saigon embassy scene, the sooner we leave, the better.
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"I speculate that ending the invasion of Iraq involves a release by the US of an oil/pipeline stranglehold"
More to the point, permanent occupation depends on the Iraqis commitment to give lucrative oil-related and "reconstruction" contracts to US and UK firms. French and Russian companies should save their money and bid elsewhere.
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Funny how that open market and free trade concept of capitalism flits around - has there ever been a successful capitalist society that wasn't dependent on some theft of resources from a suppressed third party - a source where equal value is not exchanged (slavery, colonies, military occupation of Iraq). Can it be a myth? Has it not even turned in upon itself in the US with fraudsters, brokers, servicers and parasites? It seems logical that if there is a high concentration of wealth among few then there must be a theft somewhere along the line. An individual man just isn't actually worth $1,000,000 a year - it's nonsense. Backfired with Iraq though - that was arrogance.
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Whether our European "friends" like to admit it or not, the fact is that most of the world is more interested in the policies and actions the USA is taking than anyone else's. Even developed nations such as China, Japan, and Russia are more interested in what we do than what colonial Europe opines.
Our economy is having problems, most of them self-inflicted, but it remains the largest in the world, and so does our military and currency.
Perhaps you should all pay more attention to what we are doing and work in consonance with our economic recovery strategies to take advantage of all the investment opportunities that exist today; and offer constructive foreign policy solutions instead of engaging in facile criticisms such as calling the planned withdrawal from Iraq "whimpering". Not even Bush II planned to remain there indefinitely and did, in fact, set the stage for the withdrawal that is about to take place.
The actions that are being taken may not correct all the damage done during the past few years, both at home and abroad, but they are a step in the right direction and they deserve support.
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#62
I MENT Big International Boombs---BIB. We don't need an international war here! And of course a Civil War in Iraq, was what we were trying to avoid from the start, ask President Bush. I doubt he wants to talk to us now. This playing or pushing in other's affairs is not good, some how there must be "international dignity" for all nations big and small. I don't believe ALL INDIVIDUALS are equal, but all peoples on earth need to be working together now. This is a scarry time for us all...OUR politicians are not thinking, like the House of Lords. We need leadership not thieves. I bet there is a good and intellegent duke out there, to save us all. We need to look at the stars, not bury our heads in the muck. Where are the leaders?
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Are you serious why would anyone ask.. if America won? Is this some kind of game because I honestly don't feel as if we were there to serve justice we would have to declare our status on what... how many people we killed.. how many places we got our bases in, on another countries property. I don't understand if we were there for the justice of the people and the well being of their future as well as the rest of the world's ...then why would we declare a state of "WINNING" ?
People are so quick at declaring We moved ahead for the people of this planet, we made progress for humanity is wonderful... We WON is the most ignorant question I have heard over and over again..
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The publicized justifications for the Iraq war are a good example of twisting morality/logic speak. Like with the capitalism/socialism dialog. If it's a moral question then ideal socialism is better. If it's a raw logic question (survival of the fittest) then it's capitalism. The funny results arise when the survival of the fittest guys try to gild the justification for their actions with morality. We're taking the oil by force, but it's because we changed our mind about punishing Saddam for humanitarian violations 10 years or so ago, plus he caused 911 (not really but it sounded good). Then the funniest thing of all is when the same types go with the extreme Christian cloak....too funny, and all for munny.
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56 british-ish
I wouldn't expect you with a rubbish
'British-ish' socialist mentality to respond any other way.
"Without vision we perish" and those with your mindset and lack of vision can't even recognize what it is occurring. Now socialist to the hilt, its work ethic down the toilet, Britain is an example of what happens to a nation that sells it soul to big government and socialism. Once 'Great' Britain no longer owns even one of its once famous car manufacturers. Rolls Royce and Daimler are owned by BMW and Volkswagen, Jaguar by an Indian company, Mini by BMW. Once great shipbuilding companies like Harland and Wolf no longer exist.
A general attitude is one of 'less work, more pay, and free beer', one reason that most Britains welcomed Polish tradespeople to their shores. Most showed that they know how to work and didn't expect absurd pay for their work, an attitude now lost among British workers.
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71 saintDominick
"deserve support" Canada is more than willing. Any impact we have on the world is minimal therefore Obama has strong support as witnessed by our reception of him. It will continue up until the time his actions prove to be detrimental to Canada. We much prefer to be good, true, loyal friends, than live with the "with us or against us" rhetoric. And we are more than willing to show it.
This is interesting.
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Did somebody say, "free beer?"
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51 I read the first line or two.
and already full of it
"I think you should face the fact that the U.S. was digging itself into a financial hole long before Bush, 9/11, and the two wars showed up"
And the deficit? and the lending levels,?
Things were not great for many reasons ( i have always gone for the throat with both clintons,I dislike them).
But there was money there for awhile.
and if things like GM had invested in the EVprogram and worked on that rather than the HUMVee program (TAx incentives by GW helped that) , or if ford had been encouraged by their electric vehicle program.
they may be in good shape now.
But no GW the moran made sure that would not happen with that stupid energy policy made up in secret with him and the never squeak boys.
So instead of saying "look the future is going pear shaped lets start doing something about it"
they said "help ! something's happening. people are against globalisation and want us to sign treaties that would mean I cannot stay as rich. God help us."(bush's repeal of wilderness was even peeing off people in some red states)(mr unpopular bush after first 100 days)
Then came 9/11 (sorry i'm not going into conspiracy stories even without them) which evidence says that at least some people thought priorities were not -- the subjects being noticed training to go up in planes etc.
deliberate avoidance.
(let it happen , just pretend we didn't notice)
at that time he was doing real real bad in the polls..
either way Clinton was at least keeping an eye on these guys despite what you dweebs keep saying bush did not just make the mistake Clinton did of not bombing them(as u would put it) but bush also made the mistake of turning his back and planning a fight with some one else. He was too busy dreaming up war with Iraq to notice OBL.
His fault. not a Clinton (who is still a little jerk IMO)
Even so Given Jobs for dirty jobs were being moved overseas, encouragement could have been made for solar wind etc.
But no thanks to GW the incentives did not come but two wars not needed did .that and the crap that led to the stock collapse which was partly due to bankruptcy laws being changed by the Bushies.
Banks realised there was less protection for the users and so jumped in and reamed all they could. Greed got them.
Health industry thought we are off the hook these GOP will never bring in regulations price controls or anything so we can ream.
Developers saw the tax breaks for building too many homes etc and they reamed. and over supplied.
all the time Bush played Golf and no one cared(well no one on the right)(Ok GnR I suspect some;))
All the time the deficet and spending went through the roof and they dropped taxes for their buddies and increased the burdon of the poorer people and at the same time gave them less for what the did have, less schooling, less healthcare etc.
The last 8 years were Criminal. Criminal neglect.
Quite rightly I would not be allowed to tread my goldfish in such a manner
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75 you know nothing of british workers obviously.
they sold out to big business.
union membership down.
employment agencies filling huge numbers of jobs.
not unions.
You know as much on this as the rest of life's issues .
Nothing.
As to car industry america may well not have one soon. in fact we will all be driving japanese cars with no others there.
Oh and the Germans... they have more union and guild arrangements than you can understand.
Gherkin I think he was wrong about the fly swat.
http://www.pet-dog-cat-supply-store.com/shop/dog-poop-scoops.php though I do have some recomendations.
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77 yes at work and at home . they replaced the water in the pipes with beer. lottery money.
they also replaced all the other pages from the sun so every page is page 3 .
and they made football free on the TV.
Rob just to continue to point out quite how wrong you are often.
look at the price of a can o beer in the USA compared to the UK.
Cheaper I bet.
Same with ciggies.
same with most things, (not bread though).
america has given all crap away for almost free for years. look at house prices compared with UK or Netherlands lets say.
America is the land of BOUGHT OFF.
they just don't have anything for it.
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Well said all that said "end with a wimper?"
Apparently the lack of parades after decimation is disappointing to some.
Criminal law can deal with terrorists.
after the fact.
Before I suspect the military can be useful, but so can the police who if given a chance may have been able to stop it happening. too late now.(who were ignored prior to 9/11 . FBI are police)
Bit like saying " they got divorced , bit rough in court but essentially disappointing because no one got killed"
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Ref. 71
'Whether our European "friends" like to admit it or not, the fact is that most of the world is more interested in the policies and actions the USA is taking than anyone else's. Even developed nations such as China, Japan, and Russia are more interested in what we do than what colonial Europe opines.'
True, but that's because of the geopolitical reality of the world since the end of the cold war. The U.S. has a disproportionate amount of power, very disproportionate. It gives us the ability (not the right, in my opinion) to act unilaterally in promoting our agenda over all else. I argue this effectively disenfranchises the electorates of other first world nations. While its generally accepted (if not happily accepted) that our President is the leader of the free world, none of these moral, well-educated people have a voice in what their de facto leader does. When you think of it that way, it is unfair. The Soviet Union at least provided a means for appeal. Now, there is no avenue of appeal.
Personally, I don't want our Presidents to work for anyone but the people of the U.S., but I also don't want to run roughshod over the rights of our allies (and even those that considered themselves non-aligned). The world wants more say in what we do, and my reply is probably the same as yours: no. I am, however, not entirely unsympathetic.
On balance, for most of American history, Europeans have been our very good friends. A good friend is one who is not afraid to criticize when you are taking actions that are deleterious. So, I really don't think you should quote the world "friends". When the chips are down (and I mean really down), they will be there to help.
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Ref. 77
'Did somebody say, "free beer?"'
Where? Where? Do tell. Beer tastes so much better when it's free.
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Ref, 51
I think you make good points in this post. I'm dumbfounded at the accusation that labor is to blame for all of our problems, though. Is it not true that we've had a few decades of management control in the country? Haven't we been watching the seemingly inexorable decline of labor since the Reagan administration? It's been decades since labor had a strong voice in our country.
Why do you give management a pass? Am I wrong to hold them responsible? Back in the 70s I would have whole-heartedly agreed with you. Now, I just don't see it.
I assert that the shipping of American jobs overseas was primarily a management strategy to break unions, and a highly successful one at that.
Am I off base here?
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"Apparently the lack of parades after decimation is disappointing to some."
Oh, I suspect we will have a few.
And I for one will attend.
What do you mean by decimation? 5000 lives doesn't represent a tenth of even our Iraq commitment (14,000 would), not to mention our total military force. Compared to past wars, we're getting off lightly.
I do honor the sacrifice of even one American soldier.
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Ref 80, Andy
"Am I off base here?"
I don't think so, although I don't believe the demise of labor unions was the goal for moving our factories and technology overseas. I believe it was a consequence of that decision. The real motivator is the bottom line, with profits and stock dividends playing a larger role in the decision-making process of our top executives than the long term consequences of their decisions, including the survival of our society and way of life.
Blaming organized labor for the problems we are having is a dangerous over simplification that ignore the horrible decisions made by management and our government leaders during the past three or four decades. I think it is important to admit, however, that the results of their greedy and irresponsible decisions were exacerbated by our own sense of entitlement, fiscal indiscipline, and the choices we have made.
Corporate profits, illogical and often detrimental mergers, the transfer of critical technologies and equipment overseas, corporate greed, the inadequacies of our education system and the lack of motivation of so many young Americans, our insistence on having everything and paying for as little as possible, our refusal to accept responsibility for our actions, and our false sense of superiority are among the many factors that contributed to the economic, fiscal and intellectual malaise we are experiencing. Organized labor, such as it is, is just background noise in a big boys game.
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Mr. Gates must think he is talking to fools. The occupation is far from done, and he knows it. If we are to pull out now it would be another BUSH 1 exploit, where we were there and didn't finish the job. Just pull out and let them rip each other to bits really is not right...maybe Russia will take over the job? What is going on in American politics right now is off the road!
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26, ubermensch.
"I see a great deal of partsianship and pettiness in Obama. He refuses to give credit for the surge."
What was so great about the "surge"? We suppressed the Iraqis and with the surge we suppressed them more. Why should we take pride in further beating them down. I think Obama should have deplored the surge.
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62, rwbennet.
"CAN YOU IMAGINE IRAQ WITHOUT THE US AND UK?"
With pleasure.
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Ref. 86
"I don't think so, although I don't believe the demise of labor unions was the goal for moving our factories and technology overseas."
Yes, that was a bit clumsy on my part.
The goal was to increased profits by driving down labor costs. Labor's goal is to maintain or increase benefits for workers, which increases labor costs. The power of a union is contained in its ability to enforce strikes which puts economic pressure on management to improve compensation and working conditions. Labor loses this power when jobs are shipped overseas (where in many places unions are illegal). I'm suggesting that this is analogous to union busting., but I do know that's not the form it has taken in the past. Traditional union busting has involved axe handles and machine guns.
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Ref 87, RW
"...when we were there and didn't finish the job."
The problem is defining what our "job" in Iraq is. If it was regime change = mission accomplished. If it was WMDs = none found. If it was teaching the Muslim world an object lesson = we failed and it doesn't matter how long we stay or how soon we leave, the perception will always be that the biggest military superpower launched an unprovoked attack against a developing nation inflicting horrible pain and destruction on them, and imposing values that are inconsistent with their aspiratons.
Unfortunately, President Obama's plans for Afghanistan guarantee a sequel to what should have been a painful lesson for us.
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#75. robloop: "Rolls Royce and Daimler are owned by BMW and Volkswagen, Jaguar by an Indian company.
Actually, Daimler is owned by Tata Motors, the "Indian company" you mention. It is Bentley which is now owned by Volkswagen. Nevertheless, they are still built in Britain. Great American brands too are owned by other countries: Anheuser-Busch (Bud) is owned by the Belgians, Good Humor ice cream by the Brits (and Dutch), French's Mustard (one of the enduring American culinary icons) by the Brits, Frigidaire by Sweden, Trader Joe's by the Germans, 7-Eleven by the Japanese, Toll House cookies and chocolate morsels by the Swiss - and the list goes on.
Manufacturing is now international and the ultimate ownership no longer matters.
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85, Andy.
What most people forget is that our soldiers are regular army. They are not draftees. Although the death of a loved one is difficult to bear, these men volunteered to kill on command (and risk the possibility of being killed). Looked at it that way, they are mercenaries, not victims. Draftees would be victims.
I was in Jordan a couple of years ago and we were talking about the Iraqi war, the problems it was causing for the Jordanians, and the sad loss of life on both sides. It came out in conversation that the American soldiers were volunteers. At that point the Jordnians lost their concern for dead and wounded American soldiers. They had assumed, as is true in Middle Eastern countries, that they had been forced to serve by their government.
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Further to 93.
Young men (young everybody) are foolish. They probably joined the army for a variety of reasons. The promise of a paid-for education, the uniform, the testosterone, the need to finally leave their families and strike out on their own, their indecision about their next step in life and, with some, an aggressive nature.
So we feel sorry for them for being young and foolish. Nonetheless - they volunteered and surely knew what the deal was. Being young they also felt immortal. I remember talking to a medic (stateside) who had attended a young dying man who had been knifed while at work. The young man said, "I can't die. I am only 23."
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Ref 93, Marbles
"...these men volunteered to kill on command (and risk the possibility of being killed)."
Let's not forget that most volunteers were impressionable young men and women who joined the armed forces immediately after 9/11. I think it is important to consider the climate of fear, inspired in part by the constant warnings and claims of plots of terrorist attacks against the USA, that influenced the decision of so many young Americans to defend our country.
Suggesting they are trained killers is, in my opinion, very wrong. Blame the ones that put them in harms way and those who used deceit to pursue their goals, not the soldiers who follow orders and who would have rather protect our country in our homeland.
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95, saint.
I would be the last to deny that young people are impressionable. But even they know what an army's purpose is - in time of war to destroy the enemy, or what the government purports to be the enemy. Given modern warfare methods that means not only killing emeny combatants, but countless innocent civilians.
That the government portrays soldiers as patriotic, saving the world for democracy, and all that crap, is true. But let's remember the Viet Nam War. The young would-be draftees were wise to that. Many fled to Canada rather than serve in a filthy war, no matter how glorious the government made it sound. If there were draftees now, Canada would not be able to contain and assimilate all our draft dodgers.
These are even less innocent times than the Viet Nam era. Mainly the kids joined for the reasons I mentioned (unfortunately two of my idiot nephews among them). Young or old, they and we must take responsibility for our actions. When we have free choice (in terms of joing the army) we cannot blame the government. An odd statement coming from me, given my jaded view of government .
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91, saint.
"Unfortunately, President Obama's plans for Afghanistan guarantee a sequel to what should have been a painful lesson for us."
Unfortunately true.
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95, saint.
"Suggesting they are trained killers is, in my opinion, very wrong."
All soldiers are trained killers. That's the whole point. (Excluding doctors, nurses, dentists, medics and chaplains, that is.)
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re: 75 robloop Britain is an example of what happens to a nation that sells it soul to big government and socialism.
What the (act of human coitus) do you think socialism is? I don't recall any mass nationalization of industry in GB in the last 25 years.
So the Indians and the Germans own some marquee British brands. Big deal. That's mother (act of human coitus)ing capitalism for ya!
All Obama is suggesting with his budget proposals are a long over due re-alignment of the tax burden, and decent health care. Amen. Hallelujah. Let the (act of human coitus)ing bells ring out!
Socialism indeed. What a load of nonsense.
Yours,
Pinko
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re: 41 neil_a2 The Obama economists seemed to have missed a chapter in their studies. I do wonder if Obama will also sit on the fantail of the USS Potomac and dole out public funds to his friends and political supporters.
No, the "Obama economists" just don't believe anymore the book of Reagan. Check out Paul Krugman, dude.
And yes, Obama's friends and supporters will benefit, that is, the majority of American citizens.
Crazy as it may seem to you, lots of us actually believe that giving tax advantages to the majority of rate payers, and providing a decent level of health care and educational opportunity for all, are actually sane and just ideas.
So go climb down into your bunker, and we'll see you in four years.
Happy trails,
Pinko
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re: 48 masabimulawa I hurt for the Iraqi civilians, for the children, for those whose deaths and torture have shamed us. And I hurt for us sunk so low, degraded by so much. How could 'Winning' be possible? Consider the nature of the debt incurred, to whom and by whom and for what--and I don't mean financial debt--through the mere act of our presence in Iraq and the manner of its happening. Consider the seeds sown, the fruit already borne... Consider the impact on days still to come... No, there are no winners in this or any war--in different ways, we're all losers with long debts left to the children of a doubtful future to settle and repay.
Amen brother.
Let there be no mistake: the neocon project glorifies war and violence. War for these men is a game, they believe it a necessary part of creating and maintaining the "national spirit" so loved by many. See more here.
The Iraq war was a terrible misadventure undertaken by stupid and reckless men. You who are citizens of the US have paid a grotesque price for their foolishness.
Whatever happened to the sad, solemn, "gray eyed warriors," those who see war for what it is: a terrible, sad necessity, to be undertaken only as the last, absolutely last possible resort. Go ask Colin Powell, maybe.
May the chicken hawks find their solace on the rubber chicken circuit, and slowly but surely fade away like a bad smell.
Yours,
Pinko
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96, marbles -
Unfortunately what you say about the volunteer military is true; equally unfortunately, many of those young men and women have very few if any choices. In my area there are no jobs for those who graduate from high school and don't go on to college, and college is simply not an option for many of them. It might be that the family farm they hoped to take over has gone bankrupt or their father's constructions business they trained for has gone under. It's sad that the military is often the only viable option for many young people in this country.
My own son even considered it at one point, due to depression about his future, but his sister and I rushed over to the recruitment office and dragged him out before he could sign anything, much to the disgust of the recruiter. None of us has ever regretted that.
A pacifist friend of mine was very disturbed when her son joined the army at 18 (before the Bush II era), but fortunately he has had desk jobs so far. He is a good young man, but did not want to go to college and wanted a career.
Perhaps I can see this from a different perspective as my own father was a career army officer and despite his early boot camp training, no one who knew him would have ever described him as a "trained killer." He had a Master's degree in foreign relations and spent most of his career teaching soldiers in the classroom and acting as a diplomatic liaison. I suspect most who go into the military hope they will not be sent out to kill, although it is of course always understood that that could be part of the job.
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99 chronophobe
Nice to hear from you. Enjoyed your post!!
101 "Leo Straussians" Some scary people. Became aware of the "movement" when they first came to power.
Interestedforeigner #45 wrote an unusual post. I am wondering if you can decipher it?
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The song is over but the melody lingers on. The campaign, the debates, the primaries, the election, the inauguration, the congratulations and parties are all behind us.
"You'll miss me when I'm back in cold nasty dreary London."
Yeah, right! Fer sure!
"Oh please let me stay, please let me stay. I want so badly to see the cherry blossoms bloom in Washington DC one more time."
-------->
Go East young man, go East! :-)
Look on the bright side, as long as your youngest son is alive, there will be a part of America that will stay with you no matter where you go.
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102, bere.
Yes, I have known those who joined the army because they had few prospects in life and wanted a secure future. But they also understood the implications, and perhaps better than others, because there were no stars in their eyes.
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timewaits,
Howdy!
I've been spending some time in your town of late (and enjoying it very much, I might add!)
About feriner's post: he seems to be drawing parallels between this current UN racism conference and the one before 9/11.
Does it portend as he suggests? That's way beyond my realm of knowledge.
I do know that, unlike Bush, Obama will be sending an observer to the Human Rights Council.
I'm not sure why he's hung up on "who called it?" It's a UN thing, probably on a clockwork schedule (every x years).
Canada had some time ago announced it would not attend the racism conference.
Cheers,
Pinko
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ref #88
We liberated Iraq, ask the Kurds.
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106 chronophobe
Good to hear. Were you at Winnie's last night on Crescent? If so we were the big group over in the corner! Went to hear the band since we know one of the guitarists. You could have met most of my family. I'll fall off my chair if you say "yes"!! I have a favourite Italian restaurant if you're looking for a recommendation.
Re: feriner - it's the "portending" that has me a wee bit concerned. Not that I know the man personally but it didn't sound like him. Let's hope the observer doesn't walk out.
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chronophobe
Did you go to the link on my #76?
My favourite; when asked about Obama: "When Canadians were asked who they feel is the superior leader, none of the Canadian politicians even came close. In fact "don't know" polled higher than any Canadian leader."
"don't know"!! Something/one to look forward to on our next ballot.
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President Obamas decision to leave Iraq is made possible by the surge. The Bush haters will deny this of course. They even blame Bush for not telling them that they hate him.
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The BBC is getting a bit desperate here aren't they...
* Regime changed
* Sadam dead
* Elected government in place
* Violence virtually stopped
* Militias defeated
* Al-Qaeda fled
* Economy growing
* US troops on controlled withdrawl plan
'Ends with a whimper'?
By that rationale WW2 ended with a whimper.
Are you really expecting an Obama administration to admit the war started by Bush has been won?
The BBC and some of it's readers may not like it (and no one likes the dreadful human cost) but if this isn't winning they I'd like to know what your definition of 'won' would be.
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A lot claim that the surge works. Did it?
1) The surge pump lots of money to bribe the locals to fight the locals. The money attracts people that it for money and not for the betterment of iraq. Thus, this is actually what created Saddam in the firstplace. Once locals stop getting money, look at what they say. And mind you, they are now better armed with the money.
2) Part of the surge channel money to control the media and block out media that is not singing in tune with what the generals want. This allows a climate for dictator to form as there is no freedom of press. And a lot of bad news are simply suppress. Maybe even a lot of death can simply be hidden as other cause.
There is also not much coverage of the displace civilain and how are they now.
3) There is no mentioned of how the normal iraqis felt now. Are they happy that US still controls the country. They may keep quiet but that does not mean they are not angry. Will they cheer if 9-11 happens to US again. Especially those that lost their love ones in this war.
4) Lesser death is also due to people being weary of war. However, the adults will still teach their children to hate US and the next generation will have no lack of US haters in iraq.
Do you still think the surge works?
I do not. Only those that look at the surface and believe whatever the "western" media says will claim the surge work. The surge simply just delay the explosion so that it look good for Bush and leave Obama to clear the mess.
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Moqtadar al Sadr stopped fighting before the surge. The "success" of the surge was hype.
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Justin,
Please take a cue from your colleague Mark and start writing like the professional you claim to be. Your posts are hardly researched and genuine; it is sad that someone with your kind of title and position working for the famed BBC is mediocre in every sense of the word.
I followed your coverage of the US elections and couldn't help saying to myself, "even a high school kid could do better!"
Grow up Justin. Take your job seriously or simply quit.
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Too true. [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]Will we ever learn?Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peaceed
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Bang followed by whimper?
Some very disturbing medical discussion.
;-(
ed
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111. At 08:04am on 01 Mar 2009, jon112uk wrote:
The BBC is getting a bit desperate here aren't they...
* Regime changed
5 5years ago
* Sadam dead
Hanged in a bungled execution disgracing the coalition forces
* Elected government in place
But not in authority
* Violence virtually stopped
Except for the fact that people are still being killed
* Militias defeated
Militias armed and paid by the US
* Al-Qaeda fled
Al Quaeda stillin operation
* Economy growing
But not as it dod under Saddam
* US troops on controlled withdrawl plan
US troops too remain in huge numbers and independent of Iraqi government.
'Ends with a whimper'?
Hasn't ended yet.
By that rationale WW2 ended with a whimper.
Yes it did. Maybe you could talk to the Poles, Czechs, East Germans?
"Are you really expecting an Obama administration to admit the war started by Bush has been won?"
Are you seriously claiming the war has been "won"?
"The BBC and some of it's readers may not like it (and no one likes the dreadful human cost) but if this isn't winning they I'd like to know what your definition of 'won' would be. "
Well why not consult your hero Bush. He spoke of shing beacons, booming propserity peace etc. So by this standard the conquest has beenwell near a total failure
You know likle happens int heUK etc.
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Ref 82, Andy
"...I don't want our Presidents to work for anyone but the people of the U.S., but I also don't want to run roughshod over the rights of our allies.."
I share your opinion but, as you know, that is not what has been taking place since at least the end of WWII. Our greed, arrogance, and intolerance of other cultures and ideologies have influenced our foreign policy in ways that are inconsistent with the tenets of our Constitution and values, and are the reason for the "military solutions" and corporate greed we have espoused for decades, which produced the anti-American sentiments and resistance that are evident throughout the world.
One of the things I learned during my 30 years overseas - living like a native - is that most foreigners admire our lifestyle and the opportunities that exist in our country, but they deplore and reject the way we treat the rest of the world.
Bear in mind that my experience overseas goes back to the 40s - 60s and, therefore, my opinion is based on what I observed, heard or experienced then. While I consider the Bush II administration one of the worst in our history, I think it is unfair to blame it for sentiments that have existed since long before he was elected.
We - the people - need to change and must learn to respect others the way we expect them to respect us. A good start would be to elect leaders that respect the rest of the world and who don't see it as a business opportunity but as nations with the same rights and aspirations that we have.
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The more I read here, the more obvious it is, many areas can not fully care for themselves. Many are monsrtousities left over from colonial boundries that worked for Empire, but not for new nations. The US and UK should work out the best methods for these areas to succeed and with UN? help, at least offer help to end problems not open old wounds from the past. There appears to be a reknewed interest in tribalism and racism and hostile religion. These are the dangers, as we have seen. What is sad, is that it appears, most people love to form gangs and kick the suffing out of their less fortunate neighbors. Is this original sin? or is it individuals to blame?
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Ref 111, Jon
Bear in mind that the ability of the elected government of Iraq to remain in power depends largely on our commitment to remain in that country. The eventual government of Iraq is likely to be an Islamic Republic modeled after Iran's, thanks to our decision to remove the secular Sunni government of Saddam Hussein from power and replace it with a Shiite government aligned spiritually to Iran.
The Sunni militia (we used to call them insurgents, with terrorist connotations) were not defeated, they are on our payroll. I wonder what will happen when we leave and the Shiites refuse to pick up the tab.
While I don't doubt that Iraqi resistance groups may have been inspired by Al Qaeda, I doubt that organization ever had a robust presence in Iraq. They simply made a good excuse to prolong our presence in that hapless country.
Their economy is, indeed, growing and heading back to the pre-Gulf War days. It remains to be seen whether the post-invasion government of Iraq honors the sole-source contracts awarded to US and UK corporations or they go back to open bid contracts that welcome French and Russian participation. I suspect they learned their lesson and will not over reach, or they will pay the price for their audacity again.
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ref #113
Sadr is a coward like most of these religous Mullahs. He will fight to the last drop of his followers blood.
Any who believes that his ilk care about anything but power and intolerance needs thier head examined.
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92 David_Cunard
Those British car companies sold off for the simple reason that others, foreigners, could do a better of job running the show than they could. Rolls was in trouble before it sold, Daimler and Bentley too, as far as can recall. It was not simply a matter of manufacture going international.
The Japanese have done a far better job in North America than have American car manufacturers and that speaks for itself.
99 Chronophobe
Frankly, you just don't get it, do you? No, Britain has not become a communist state so the government hasn't nationalize everything.
Re the U.S., it should be evident that I was not opposed to the idea of decent healthcare.
Re Obama, and you actually think it is that simple? If "all Obama is suggesting with his budget proposals are a long over due re-alignment of the tax burden, and decent health care. Amen" you really don't get it.
Furthermore, he's not just "suggesting", he is actually 'doing' what he says he will do and a little thought to other things he is
'suggesting' and implying should make you appreciate the profound changes that are about to take place in the U.S. with him in office the pathetic likes of Pelosi and Reid controlling Congress.
If you truly think his ambitions toward socialism are not real, evidently your head is now situated were it's impolite to scratch.
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Ref 122, Rob
"Those British car companies sold off for the simple reason that others, foreigners, could do a better of job running the show than they could.?
Companies are usually sold to the highest bidder, regardless of how well they may manage it after they purchase it.
Having said that, and judging by the success of Japanese auto makers in the USA, I would say that we should pay more attention to the work ethics and practices of foreign companies, instead of insisting on the we know best mantra.
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re: 108 timewaits
Sorry for the tardy response. I am a poor correspondent I am afraid.
No, not at Winnie's Friday. Another time, I hope. Always happy to get a restaurant recommendation . . .
Saw the link, quite funny, actually. Obama has such a huge media profile that he dwarfs our lot. Iggy is a smart guy, but I don't know if he has the "humbility" of Obama; Iggy can come across as too much the egg head.
Yours,
Pinko
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Robloop. It made uncomfortable reading about the demise of our UK auto industry. All the famous marques now long gone by merger then death, or just plain death. Cars, Hillman, Riley, Wolsey, Morris, Austin, orphaned and unwanted Jaguar, Landrover, Motorbikes, BSA, Norton, Triumph, Velocet, Ariel, Frances Barnet, Trucks, Atkinson, Seddon, Foden, Bedford, Leyland, AEC, Commer. What caused this collapse? Lazy union workers? Poor management? Maybe both, along with increasing competition from Europe and Japan.
I know Japanese factories over here in the UK can turn out production at the same rate if not better than in the Japanese mainland, with no drop in quality.
The auto industry in the US is following a depressingly similar path to ours. All those famous marques now merged with GM and Chrysler (Cadillac, Oldsmobile, Buick, Jeep) may soon go. How can your GM and Chrysler keep afloat with all that debt when Toyota and Honda have so little?
Talking of keeping afloat, Harland & Wolf made the Titanic. By criticising us floundering in the water you don't seem to realise that you are on an upper deck of the same boat!
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re: 122 robloop
So if it's not about nationalizing industry, what is socialism, then? Seems you and Newt both think any economic policies you don't like are by default "socialist." Why is the welfare state "evil" in your eyes?
Look, rob, the frontier mythology of robber baron capitalism finally dying in North America. What we are seeing ishopefully the maturation of American capitalism. That it will look more like European capitalism is not a surprise.
Being an African, this reality may not correspond to your own frontier experience. I would hope, though, that Africans would be clever enough to learn something from the history of my continent, and avoid the many wasteful and destructive mistakes we have made here.
Yours,
Pinko
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Apropos modern capitalism and the rise of the East, remember in Tancred where Disraeli said, "the East is a career"?
Well, the worm will turn, and now I think it is entirely appropriate that ambitious men of the East should look towards the West. And, having studied and worked hard, they are able to say the same, to their young, though in reverse: "the West is a career."
So what is wrong with that? Does it humble the master to be equaled or bettered by the apprentice? Tough luck, I'd say.
Yours,
Pinko
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Ref 125, UK
"By criticising us floundering in the water you don't seem to realise that you are on an upper deck of the same boat!"
Excellent analogy. Sadly, it seems obvious that many of many fellow citizens continue to reject the idea that we are broke, remain focused on who to blame for what many still consider a programmatic recession, and still cling to the unrealistic dream of a quick recovery.
I am afraid the economic recovery is going to be slow, not only because of the difficulties inherent in paying or writing off the huge debt we have accumulated at all levels, but because we need to rebuild our industrial base as well, and that is going to take time...and more borrowed money.
Hopefully the downward spiral will be stopped within the next one or two years, but prosperity is going to take a lot longer than that and it is unclear what kind of a country we will be when and if we achieve that elusive goal. Japan may be a good example to use as a model.
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Those that are calling economic policies designed to save capitalism a turn towards socialism either don't understand either concept or are so desperate for a wedge to undermine the Obama "surge" they are willing to say anything to score a few points.
Calling for our President's policies to fail at a time when we are in desperate need of vision and financial stimulus makes the GOP look obstructionist and obtuse, and it is playing into the Dems hands.
If Republicans continue to give standing ovations to the likes of Rush Limbaugh when he calls for the de facto bankruptcy of our country, they may not be a minority party much longer, they may very well disappear from American politics and be replaced by a centrist party that shares the values and aspirations of average Americans.
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124 chronophobe
"tardy"
No problem. Trattoria Trestevere on Crescent below Ste. Catherine (there is one with a similar name above). Down a few steps. Reservations on week-ends recommended. Believe they are closed Sundays.
I'd say more but might be referred for being off topic. Just go and you will learn all the things I want to say. Not sure if they are capitalists or socialists. There.
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gordon bennet
What is sad, is that it appears, most people love to form gangs and kick the suffing out of their less fortunate neighbors. Is this original sin? or is it individuals to blame?
-------------------------------------------------
what world of darkness do you live in.
Original sin is the sin believing nothing can be achieved through peace.
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Gordon bennet I should also say that I sometimes do find the sentiment you write quite sweet. sometimes you seem to care about people.
in a condescending manner yes but still you do care.
"many areas can not fully care for themselves."which sounds like a polite introduction to "so we should rule them for their own good"
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127
Chrono
"So what is wrong with that? Does it humble the master to be equaled or bettered by the apprentice? Tough luck, I'd say. "
I'd say the master that is upset his student learned so well is no master.
I am no master Smith.
but when I teach I am glad that a student surpasses me. It means I did my job well. And here's the benefit to me. I learn from them.
St Dom
" One of the things I learned during my 30 years overseas - living like a native - is that most foreigners admire our lifestyle and the opportunities that exist in our country, but they deplore and reject the way we treat the rest of the world. "
exactly.
(they also hate it when americans jump in the line.lol)
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Obama is a consummate politician.
In staging a rally at the Marine base in camp Lejeune, he appeared to bask in the cheers of support from military families who in truth are merely relieved to see the end of enduring six years of separation. Now the Marines will be sent to Afghanistan instead of Iraq. There's Change we can Believe in.
He delivered nothing as he created the political illusion that he was making good on a campaign promise. The war in Iraq has already evolved beyond combat, through security and into self-governance. The surge worked, so now President Obama will surge to the other place. What better flattery of GWB's policies than imitation.
The masses won't even notice or care as they seek their share of handouts from the trillions that the government is stealing from the nation's future to satiate the instant gratification of the indolent union workers whose only concern is Monday Night Football. For the irreligious, sports is the new opiate.
While western (formerly Christian) nations are busy practicing personal avarice, a very small number of murderous militant muslims will continue to subjugate largely illiterate populations in Iran where eventually nuclear weapons will be developed.
Anyone believe Achmed'sreallybad will listen to Hilary?
Yes the whimpering is now. The bang will come later.
Now that I'm no longer there, I really should get drunk to live up to the expectations of this site's rabid anti-military bloggers, but I really have been craving clotted cream... So I'll put off my PTSD until our new healthcare system makes it financially worth my while.
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lol chrono 99 "
"What the (act of human coitus) do you think socialism is? I don't recall any mass nationalization of industry in GB in the last 25 years. "
but I do remember the mass privatisation of industry during the last 25years.
Quite a remarkable memory on Rob, He ALWAYS getes it wrong.
that takes some.
93 Marbles well pointed out.
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Radio Legend, Paul Harvey, has died at age 90. We will never forget you and your trade mark voice.
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#122. robloop wrote: "Rolls was in trouble before it sold, Daimler and Bentley too, as far as can recall."
If you're going to write about the UK motorcar industry at least get the basic facts correct - Daimler had been owned by Jaguar since 1960, hence its new ownership by Tata. But formerly it was owned by American Ford, a company which couldn't handle the job. As for Bentley being in trouble, your ignorance knows no bounds - Bentley was merged with Rolls-Royce in 1931. Subsequently the jet engine and automobile divisions were separated entirely as independent companies. The former owner of Rolls and Bentley, Vickers, a defence contractor, sold it to concentrate on its core business, not because of any unprofitability.
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121. At 2:22pm on 01 Mar 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #113
Sadr is a coward like most of these religous Mullahs. He will fight to the last drop of his followers blood."
As opposed to Mr Bush who fought courageously from the Oval Office in Washington.
Nothing compares to his outstanding courage with a fountain pen, committing others to an early death.
"Any who believes that his ilk care about anything but power and intolerance needs thier head examined."
This from one who sees the far right fanatic Alan Dershowitz as a shining light.
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72 rwbennett
"I bet there is a good and intellegent duke out there, to save us all"
Duke? .... or do you mean "Duce"?
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116, Ed.
Perversion. There is no other word for it.
I couldn't read through the whole thing. It was too horrible and, yes, perverted.
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123 saintDominick
No disagreement here to your comments, other than to say that whereas those British car companies were failing in British hands, those that bought them believed that they could make them profitable, and, so far, have.
Re U.S. car manufacturers, it's amazing they didn't take serious note of the Japanese manufacturers long. What an irony that it was an American (Edbers?) who taught the Japanese and anyone else prepared to listen, how to conduct business profitably. The Japanese took his advice while American manufacturers spurned it!
126 Chronophobe
Reflecting on your comments about socialism, I was briefly stumped, but then
remembered that while in its purest form socialism does involve public or state ownership and administration of all means of production and distribution of goods, the fact is that socialism is not a philosophy devoid of flexibility - even if Marx himself was.
Consequently even some hardcore socialist ideologues advocate socialist doctrine 'combined' with a degree of what they like to refer to as"rationalization", in effect private ownership of industry - which is what you see in most of Europe today, in effect, mixed economies.
In my estimation the "rationalization" part comes out of reluctant acceptance that private enterprise with its profit motive (and need to survive) generally ends up doing a more efficient and less expensive job than do government bureaucracies.
The "evils" of socialism. A few things, not least the tendency of socialist societies to spend their way into enormous debt (as did
Saskatchewan under then Premier Romanov
- and had to be bailed out by Ottawa!) (And now, ironically, capitalist America has spent its way into a mess! You'd think it was already socialist!)
Today few remember that 'socialist' Sweden (that Canada once aspired to emulate, maybe still does) spent its way into a huge mess during the 1990s, interest rates rising to 500% or higher. During the 1980s New Zealand, having gone overboard
with socialist programmes, landed itself in a huge financial mess. It was broke! No overseas bank, even the World Bank and IMF would lend it a penny. Kiwis travelling overseas were implored to bring back foreign currencies. It had to drag itself out of that mess, in the process selling off state-owned corporation like Air New Zealand to Quantas.
It did not spend itself further into debt on the back of something it called a 'stimulus package' that was funded by foreign countries! America is going to learn the reality of that proverb: 'The borrower is servant to the lender'. We will see how long China, Japan (now itself in deep trouble), and Saudi Arabia are willing to foot the bill!
Socialism's high tax system kills the incentive work hard and produce more for the simple reason that increased taxes punish the hard work and greater production.
It is also a system that encourages individuals to relinquish personal rights and allow government to regulate and interfere in their lives. You've got to see that happening in Canada today. Provincial governments pretty much dictating what they want taught in schools - regardless of parent objections. Then Human Rights Commissions being permitted to stifle freedom of speech regarding Islam and homosexuality and more things that I can remember right now. It's incidious, creeping, but nevertheless taking place.
I'm no 'died in the wool capitalist' who ignores the enormous greed that has overtaken the top echlons of business in recent decades, in the process not spreading wealth and killing off the middle class, but then, I thought that much should have been evident from what I originally wrote.
As to Africa, it's not learning a darned things from your own or any other continent, which is why you see hoards risking and sometimes losing their lives trying to cross the straits in Spain. Just consider the activities of country-destroyer Robert Mugube, yet the entire Southern Africa Development Community organization,
compromising sub-Saharan countries, refuses to condemn this maniac or stifle his destructive activity. Things occurring in South Africa itself you don't want to think about. Hugely successful farms businesses (like Zebedela, the biggest citrus farm in the world) failing entirely and taken over by squatters. I keep hoping that sanity will return.
125 ukwales
Thanks for your honesty. I hope you realise that there was no nastiness intended in my comments about the U.K. I always enjoy visits to a brother in Kent and and now a daughter who with husband and two toddlers lives in north-west London, in fact Croxley Green.
The reality is that I worked in the U.K. for almost a year and half, part of that time in Trafford Park, near the Manchester United football grounds and I saw, first-hand, unions deliberately screwing up British industry with aburdly wasteful practices and strikes based upon nothing. Go to Liverpool
and this once busy port is now pretty much empty after the actions of unions. I don't believe that ships any longer go into Newcastle-on-Tyne for refitting. I've flown over the rusting Harland and Wolf derricks in Northern Ireland.
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111, jon.
" Elected government in place."
I take issue with your premse and most of what you said, but the quote above is misleading. The elected government are American puppets. How were the candidates determined? When my daughter was young and she needed new clothes, I would select about six dresses that were appropriate and tell her she could choose the two that she liked best. Rigged? You betcha.
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121, ubermensch.
"Sadr is a coward like most of these religous Mullahs. He will fight to the last drop of his followers blood."
Talking about cowards I don't see you joining the Israeli army, in spite of your hatred of the Palestinians. Fight for what you believe in. Put your blood where your mouth is.
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De-Developing GazaIn Gaza, as Amira Hass points out, the Israeli military intentionally targeted industrial infrastructure and in particular concrete factories in a deliberate attempt to hinder Gaza’s reconstruction efforts:
Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose. ;-((ed
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When you read each other's comments do you have a mental picture of the person writing? These pictures can't be accurate, but I wonder if it isn't a way of bridging the anonymity gap and creating an intimacy of sorts. When I reply to a comment I see that person clearlly (if I know him or her well).
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The Mighty Diamonds -
Stand Up To Your Judgement
Death to Capitalism
Death to English Colonialists
Death to Traitors
Death to Yankee Imperialists
Death to Maoists
Death...
http://www.roots-archives.com/release/872
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137 David_Cunard
You are charmingly snippy and petty individual! In the context of the discussion was it really critical that I was a bit off on my information? Overall what I said was factual, a reality born out by ukwales, but I will concede that you are correct about Jaguar. A number of year back it was bought out by Ford that, contrary to what you said, had some success with it - and then sold it to Tata. And what a stupid comment about Rolls and Bentley! I know that they were owned by the same company that was in fact struggling when it sold out.
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Well, Obama has already upped the timeline from December 2009 (Campaign) to May 2010 (Later Campaign) and now August 2010.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090227/ap_on_go_pr_wh/fact_check_obama_iraq;_ylt=Ak5PqJzqDO.0nzhRTLBArH6ShMgF
Meanwhile, he's expanding the Afghan War.
While much of the antiwar base is still agog over Obama (And, surprisingly, the Republicans are supportive of his plan...), a number of antiwar Democrats (and a few Republicans like the principled Ron Paul, not to mention the third party members) are rightly pointing out that Obama's Iraq plabn is taking far slower than he originally had, and even then may not lead to a full withdrawal. (Don't blame me- I didn't vote Obama- or McCain...)
However, the so-called "surge" will finally be coming to an end with US troop levels now set to drop below the levels they had before the escalation.
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re: 141 robloop
Whoa! That's alot of material.
What jumps out at me immediately is the notion that Saskatchewan was run into the ground by the nasty socialists. Actually, it was the reverse.
The Tories, under Grant Devine, ran up huge deficits in an attempt to fund a few ill considered "private sector" mega-projects. "Socialist" Romanow turned an almost bankrupt economy around in the course of just a few years. Sask was registering budget surpluses by the mid '90's.
This from the [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
Yes, let us not forget that gov'ts that mouth "free enterprise" rhetoric are often very, very generous with the corporate welfare.
And really, that's what this "socialist" labeling is all about: if a gov't tells corporations that the subsidies, tax breaks, freebie infrastructure developments, etc. are over, the Right screams socialism!
But really, seeing as how the Right are so keen on the corporate welfare state, that must make them all socialists too!
J'accuse: Rob, you are a corporate welfare state socialist!
Yours,
Pinko
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re: 133 happyjack I am no master Smith.
but when I teach I am glad that a student surpasses me. It means I did my job well. And here's the benefit to me. I learn from them.
That's 'cuz you are a good teacher, and decent human being.
And because you don't see the student as someone 'naturally' inferior to you, who should "know her place."
Yours,
Pinko
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<RICHPOST>re: 141 robloop <BR /><BR />Whoa! That's a lot of material. <BR /><BR />What jumps out at me immediately is the notion that Saskatchewan was run into the ground by the nasty socialists. Actually, it was the reverse. <BR /><BR />The Tories, under Grant Devine, ran up huge deficits in an attempt to fund a few ill considered "private sector" mega-projects. "Socialist" Romanow turned an almost bankrupt economy around in the course of just a few years. Sask was registering <I>budget surpluses</I> by the mid '90's.<BR /><BR />Details can be found at the <[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]<BR />Yes, let us not forget that gov'ts that mouth "free enterprise" rhetoric are often very, very generous with the <I>corporate</I> welfare. <BR /><BR />And really, that's what this "socialist" labeling is all about: if a gov't tells corporations that the subsidies, tax breaks, freebie infrastructure developments, etc. are over, the Right screams socialism!<BR /><BR />But really, seeing as how the Right are so keen on the corporate welfare state, that must make them all socialists too!<BR /><BR />Rob, you are a corporate welfare state socialist! <BR /><BR />Yours,<BR />Pinko </RICHPOST>
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135 happylaze
The only thing "remarkable" is that you know so little and have so little memory you wouldn't know if I'm right or wrong.
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133, happy jack.
"I am no master Smith. but when I teach I am glad that a student surpasses me. It means I did my job well. And here's the benefit to me."
I know what you mean. Sometimes you get someone that you think has no particular talent, but with with your coaching and their hard work, they often surprise and surpass you. That is when I remind myself that success is one per cent talent and 99 per cent endeavor.
As a hobby I design and make clothing. People say," Oh, I wish I had your talent." My reply to that is, "You would, if you had first held a needle when you were six years old."
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#141 robloop.
No nastiness taken.
We have to say it as it was,other wise we will
neve change it as it is..
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USA should quit war. Nothing is more stupid than seeing US government spending billions for bank bailouts, thus, ensuing that the bankers' can maintain their lifestyles. Yet this same government is constraint from using B52 strikes to wipe out the enemy to save their soldiers' lives.
Talk of disproportonate response: stimulus spending binge to save the civilian populace from economic catastrophe but much less in saving soldiers lives.
USA is in a philopsophical bind where total and quick withdrawal is the best option.
As an ex-soldier, I resent #93 for denigrating all citizens who volunteer to be soldiers as mercenaries. We do think.
And if our master, the government, stinge on using available weapons to overcome the enemy or else have no will to fight.
I ain't going to fight, too.
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#147. robloop: "what a stupid comment about Rolls and Bentley! I know that they were owned by the same company that was in fact struggling when it sold out."
If so, why did you write "Rolls was in trouble before it sold, Daimler and Bentley too, as far as (I) can recall"? Clearly you considered that Rolls and Bentley were separate entities. And Rolls was making a profit when Vickers sold the company. On the other hand, Jaguar (and thus Daimler) was a drag on Ford's resources, otherwise it would not have been sold.
"was it really critical that I was a bit off on my information?"
Yes - there's a British saying "take care of the pence and the pounds will take care of themselves" - in other words, get the small things right and the larger will follow. If you can't get the simple things correct, how can anyone respect your other opinions?
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#141. robloop: "During the 1980s New Zealand, . . . had to drag itself out of that mess, in the process selling off state-owned corporation like Air New Zealand to Quantas."
Qantas had a 4.2% interest in Air New Zealand and which it sold last June. Hardly a sell-off! My remarks above at #156 are redoubled. Petty, snippy or not, accuracy is essential if we are to take you seriously.
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re: 141 robloop
Whoa! That's a lot of material.
What jumps out at me immediately is the notion that Saskatchewan was run into the ground by the nasty socialists. Actually, it was the reverse.
The Tories, under Grant Devine, ran up huge deficits in an attempt to fund a few ill considered "private sector" mega-projects. "Socialist" Romanow turned an almost bankrupt economy around in the course of just a few years. Sask was registering budget surpluses by the mid '90's.
Look in the http://esask.uregina.ca/entry/romanow_roy_john_1939-.html for more info.
Yes, let us not forget that gov'ts that mouth "free enterprise" rhetoric are often very, very generous with the corporate welfare.
And really, that's what this "socialist" labeling is all about: if a gov't tells corporations that the subsidies, tax breaks, freebie infrastructure developments, etc. are over, the Right screams socialism!
But really, seeing as how the Right are so keen on the corporate welfare, that must make them all socialists too!
Rob, are you a corporate welfare state socialist?
Yours,
Pinko
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157 David_Cunard
You are making a mountain out of a mole hill which seems to be your bent. In regard to New Zealand, my primary intent was to focus on it's financial 'crash' in 1987 as a consequences of embracing socialist politicies in which public money is spent by government as if there is no tomorrow, not on Air New Zealand.
Air New Zealand as a government-owned entity, was sold in 1988 as a consequence of that country's financial collapse, and became privately owned. This is from a report I found as a result of your challenge and snide comments: New Zealand
Government Asset Sales as at 30 September 1999 - Completed Sales. An agreement for sale of 100% of the ordinary shares on the above basis, at a price of $660 million, was signed on 22 December 1988; following Commerce Commission clearance - settlement took place on 17 April, 1989.
The initial share distribution was: Brierley Investments Limited. 65%; Qantas Airways Limited. 19.9%; Japan Air Lines Co Limited. 7.5%; and American Airlines Inc 7.5%. As a condition of sale, BIL was required to sell down 30% of its initial shareholding to the New Zealand public, institutions and Air New Zealand staff. The offering took place on 6 October 1989 and the shares were listed on the Stock Exchange on 24 October.
So I was wrong re Qantas and so were you re its share. In reality an Australian company, Ansett, took over flying the major domestic routes in New Zealand. Small, privately owned airlines to take over travel between smaller centres.
What has occured since back then I don't know and don't care, my original and primary point being that as a consequence of embracing socialist policies gung-ho, New Zealand came to grief big time.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Rob
" snippy and petty individual".
you Smelt it you dealt it
DC may be snippy but at least he thinks.
Oh and isn't a bigot of all sorts. To you I add the bigotry against pot heads.common and accepted even enforced by law.
But still bigotry
"A bigot is a person who, without thought, is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from his or her own, "wiki
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now admittedly I don't like bigots and that makes me a bigotist.
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158 Chronophobe
Thanks for your information about Roy Romanov. A Canadian friend who informed me so wrongly a few years ago is getting a crack over skull when next I see him!
Re your question: "Rob, are you a corporate welfare state socialist?" One thing is certain, if there is such a things as you described, I'm not one. And after all I've read of late about the financial and economic mess that now grips the world as a consequence of slovenly business practises - not least de-regulation, derivatives, hedge funds, generally no bloody rules, etc - driven by greed and a lust to, at any price, get rich quickly, I'm not sure what to believe in any more.
One thing I do know, I don't trust big socialist-style government not to interfere in my life and not to begin telling me what I should and should not think, what I can and cannot say, and even not to try telling me what I should believe. I believe in true freedom that is, nevertheless, restrained by consideration for others and recognition of a need for rules to ensure an orderly society.
I have contempt for the greed and corruption, lies and deceit that now grips the corporate world with avarice executives accumulating great wealth, often on the backs of workers who are poorly paid. Just think of Canada's banks with under-paid tellers and clerks working as temporary/
permanent employess with no benefits, while upstairs CEO's earn a few millions dollars annually, in effect on the backs of poorly paid office workers and an array of disgraceful charges and fees with which they 'screw' the consumer. I was amazed when I learned about that. So much for a 'caring, sharing society! How do you not gag on such utter piffle? Those CEOs deserve to be hung, drawn and quartered! Evidently it wasn't always that way and bank employees once had permanent positions and benefits.
But contempt for that circumstance is matched by disgust for socialistic systems that punish hard work and enterprise with higher taxes, and handicaps them with idiotic affirmative action rules that to some extent tell business owners how they can run their business; that rewards laziness and lack of enterprise on the backs of the taxpayer.
How do you admire a system that comfortably funds the life of a Somalian warlord who back in that mess is relatively wealthy? Or those systems that fund the existence of Third World (and in the U.K.'s case, East European) illegal immigrants and bogus refugees, Muslim and Tamil Tiger terrorists, who deliberately target Canada and U.K. because they are 'soft touches' with thoroughly 'wet', bleeding heart, naive and gullible bureaucrats who seem to swallow any old crap story before handing out taxpayers' money?
Can you imagine illegals being permitted to camp outside the Euro 'Chunnel' in France, waiting for a change to sneak through to England? The pathetic impotence of the authorities is pitiful! And behind it is the 'woolley' thinking that characterizes socialist-minded 'nits'.
I could go on, but will relieve you or the pain! But as you can see, I no longer have much or any faith in human systems.
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161 happyglaze
You fit your and wiki's description of a bigot perfectly.
162 Don't try too hard to work it out, take comfort in the thought that you are very recognizably a bigot.
As for 'thinking', from you I've barely seen anything that resembles rational thought. As to DC, my later posting shows that he should have thought a lot more.
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ooh oooh gwooon
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164. At 4:29pm on 02 Mar 2009, robloop wrote:
Coming from someone who wants to hit women, has a problem with black people, can't understand even the basics of evolution and whose political views were formed by aparthied South Africa this is rich.
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163. At 4:19pm on 02 Mar 2009, robloop wrote:
"I have contempt for the greed and corruption, lies and deceit that now grips the corporate world with avarice executives accumulating great wealth, often on the backs of workers who are poorly paid. Just think of Canada's banks with under-paid tellers and clerks working as temporary/
permanent employess with no benefits, while upstairs CEO's earn a few millions dollars annually, in effect on the backs of poorly paid office workers and an array of disgraceful charges and fees with which they 'screw' the consumer. I was amazed when I learned about that. So much for a 'caring, sharing society! How do you not gag on such utter piffle? Those CEOs deserve to be hung, drawn and quartered! Evidently it wasn't always that way and bank employees once had permanent positions and benefits."
But that is capitalism for you, Licensed corruption.
No capitalist society could exist without it, and none does.
"with idiotic affirmative action rules that to some extent tell business owners how they can run their business; "
In other words we must be allowed to be bigoted if we want to.
"Or those systems that fund the existence of Third World (and in the U.K.'s case, East European) illegal immigrants and bogus refugees, Muslim and Tamil Tiger terrorists, who deliberately target Canada and U.K. "
Although funding christian terrorists is OK.
What illegal immigrants come from East Europe into the uK? Oh that's right none.
"The pathetic impotence of the authorities is pitiful! And behind it is the 'woolley' thinking that characterizes socialist-minded 'nits'. "
Far better they should all carry cards specifying their identity and of course their "race" like we had in the old RSA!
Maybe they should only be allowed to live in certain areas and not "go out" with nice white women"?
What feeble minded predictable "bash the foreigner, gay, female supremacist" drivel
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166 lol simon
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#159. robloop: "Air New Zealand as a government-owned entity, was sold in 1988 as a consequence of that country's financial collapse, and became privately owned."
The airline became state owned in 1965; I would not consider privatization a move to shore up a nation's treasury as you suppose; just ask Mrs Thatcher! You might care to look at this and this or this more scholarly article.
#164: "As to DC, my later posting shows that he should have thought a lot more."
I get my facts right from the gitgo - and I notice that you had no response to the sell-off of American brands to foreign owners. Explain that if you can.
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167 Simon21
Simon, if you could get beyond your 21 year-old's hostility and engage your brain, you might be capable of writing something intelligent.
Just the usual old rantings. As I said before, get off the 'stuff', boy, it affects the mind.
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170. At 6:44pm on 02 Mar 2009, robloop wrote:
167 Simon21
Simon, if you could get beyond your 21 year-old's hostility and engage your brain, you might be capable of writing something intelligent.
Just the usual old rantings. As I said before, get off the 'stuff', boy, it affects the mind."
Oh at least I've got a mind old,old man.
Not a series of 1950s prejudices.
Incidently shall we count 21 year olds among your vast list of unsuitable people along with blacks, gays, women, disabled etc?
I only ask for information presumably you keep a list?
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169. At 6:24pm on 02 Mar 2009, David_Cunard wrote:
#159. robloop: "Air New Zealand as a government-owned entity, was sold in 1988 as a consequence of that country's financial collapse, and became privately owned."
The airline became state owned in 1965; I would not consider privatization a move to shore up a nation's treasury as you suppose; just ask Mrs Thatcher! You might care to look at this and this or this more scholarly article."
Yes facts are not this poster's strong point. He has trouble grasping evolution or accepting blacks and women have the vote.
As I said he is like Beppo the clown tying himself in knots trying to make an argument without any facts, then makes a fool of himself, falls over his own shoes and then runs round shouting at everyone for being the worng colour, sex, religion etc
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re. 163. robloop:
You seem to be having some issues. It does no harm to vent here, but I hope you think twice or more before venting like this in your real world.
And you might try taking a more charitable view of your fellow man/woman/gay/straight/black/white/socialist/capitalist/conservative/liberal/etc. human beings. In the end, we're all just trying to pay the rent and get through the day without major mishap. Just like you. The rest is mere details.
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As an American born in 1946, I basically only started to become aware of politics during the 1960 Kennedy/Nixon dust-up. Only a few U.S. Presidents have ever happened into the office at a time when the World situations were matched to His talents. Bush wasn't one either. Eight years of watching a pseudo-intellectual alcoholic morph into a mentally unstable, delusional demagogue who went from talking "with God" to talking "to God" to talking "for God" with Satanic speed have finally forced me to admit that the U.S.'s future as a stable entity is in it's last days. Our electoral procedures are a sham that continually produce only a choice between the lesser of two disasters. We will end up leaving Iraq in the same manner we left Viet Nam. With phony declarations of Peace with Honor and Mission Accomplished. If Iraq ever has peace it will not be as a result of U.S. actions. Let me be clear about something. Afghanistan was in fact a proper and necessary action. Poorly thought out, of course, but Bin Laden WAS there. Afghani warriors were involved at every level of ousting the Taliban. Iraq was a criminal act undertaken for Bush's need to outdo his daddy. He should be charged with War Crimes at several levels. As for the U.S. itself, very simply it is as close to dissolution as it has been since the Civil War, including the 1930s and late 1960s. It won't be oil or failing banks or increased Govt. corruption..(if that's even POSIBLE!)..that determines what form of government rules 300 million "self-addicts". It will be hunger! Food. Food and the ability to get it. Food riots empty stores quickly. The 'war' in Iraq and it's aftermath may end up being a huge blow to Democracy, the very thing it was purported to promote!
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171 Simon21
Right, you got an open mind! A blown open mind that now resembles a sieve.
As to the rest of your wearisome tripe, it's worn out now. Not an original idea in your head, it all leaked out.
172 Simon21
I quoted a New Zealand government report of sales, including that of Air New Zealand, and now to you and DC even that wasn't good enough. Evidently nothing will suffice. You are absurd! But then, I recognized that from just one of your postings.
173 Timohio
I'm sorry to see you also now beginning to parrot Simon's endlessly repeated load of trash because he really doesn't have any other line of attack. He has this pathetic stereotype of all South Africans and hasn't the wit to see anything else, so let him rant and rave.
Looking at the list of people you think offend me, it seems to represent the entire spectrum of humanity - which speaks highly of my balance and even-handedness! Thanks for the chuckle that gave.
169 David_Cunard
Re the sell off of American brands, I couldn't be bothered responding. I have an excellent Hoover, but now owned by a Chinese company (not Malaysian as I said earlier) I'm having difficulty obtaining belts. We'll see how long these now foreign owners keep their manufacture in the U.S. if it's economy continues in a downward slide.
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#174 idblewzman369.
Man that was a bleak picture.I agree with so mutch of that frame.Tell you what I am going to do about it .
I am going fishing with some tins & sandwiches
you do the same .It will all be there when we get back but we will both feel better.
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176 ukwales
Enjoyed your posting. Yes, idblewzman369 does paint a bleak picture. Can't say I agree with everything, but there is a lot of realism to his cynicism.
The fact is, the rot in the state of the U.S. began long before Bush appeared on the scene. For decades before that the country had been amounting a massive debt and no president or administration had the guts to address the issue and introduce austerity measures that in effect substantially lowered the standard of living. Couldn't do that! It would have lost political support and an election - no matter how right!
Then Joe citizen has been living beyond his means for decades. Bill Clinton de-regulated the financial industry and opened to the door to the sub-prime mess, but then Wall Street's avarice mob couldn't wait to introduce measures they thought would make them wealthy over night. Solid business and financial principle were abandoned in the rush to get rich. Among other things in came the derivatives and hedge funds. Speculation was the name of the game and few recognized the danger. CEO's began considering themselves God's gift to the planet and worth salaries no one is worth. In effect massive 'greed' gripped their arrogant and puny little minds.
As I've said before, ad nauseum, the chickens have come home to roost. There was no 'vision' and as the proverb says,
"Without vision we perish." idblewzman369 obviously thinks the U.S. is about to do so.
To be frank, I think we are about to see the demise of another super power. At the rate it is printing money, one of these days a U.S. dollar won't buy you a toothpick.
One things more, what are you going to have in those "tins" (they call them 'cans' in North America)?
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"One thing I do know, I don't trust big socialist-style government not to interfere in my life "
what a whoot.
No because Big capitalist companies have been looking after all our interests so well.
Never interfering (pot laws encouraged by oil processing giants.)
Not to mention ,opps I did, the great state ofthe economy at the moment.
"Big ain't always better."
" The bigger they are the harder they fall"
Go local.
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"tins" (they call them 'cans' in North America)?
just for intereset sake . so so right there.
Tins refers to the material used to make the can. canning in the states is more often putting things in Glass jars.
To can often involves no tin.
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rob a while back you misread an apology I made to you and used it erroneously to back some claim of yours that was not in any way the point of my apology. you went further than taking it out of context. you flat out made some stuff up.
One of the most disrespectful things possible in a discussion.
You do it all the time.
Now you attack timohio for telling you politely to get a grip.
You are pathetic.
If they dare disagree with you you start long character assassinations like the one I am writing here.
Simon could if the records allowed find many examples of your derision of almost all people except whites .
He is merely pointing out that your bigotry against Pot heads and under 22 year olds is just another example of why you are a bigot.
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Further more you argue not with the points people make but with their life styles.
well I suspect you to be a cranky old alcoholic chain smoker.
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179, happy: "canning in the states is more often putting things in Glass jars. To can often involves no tin."
Yes, I've always thought that was a bit odd, but to call the process "jarring" might cause more confusion.
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180 happylaze
As I told you before, you don't always understand the English language. That was not an "attack" on timohio and the amusement I mentioned was genuine.
The same circumstance occurred with yourself - way back. You just don't get it and then take offence when not intended.
So no, it is you who is 'pathetic!
You also live in political correct world that is devoid of humour, pretty much devoid of truth, candour and honesty, distorts reality and requires individuals to go around as if walking on egg shells for fear of offending this, that or the other group or individual.
This statement: "Simon could if the records allowed find many examples of your derision of almost all people except whites," is not only a load of bilge but a blatant lie, yet nothing more than I have come to expect of you and Simon.
The other day in various media I noticed that some guy had accused Americans of being "moral cowards" over race, and from what I have seen here on this blog, generally speaking, regarding white Americans, he hit the nail right on the head. Mention race and the offending individual is a "racist". You and others like you cannot even see, or refuse to see, the racism in those who are not white. And of course you are also into all the 'phobias' of the politically correct mob. It's all the rage! I've seen such individuals perform first-hand, and it's like observing a fascinating exercise in mental acrobatics. Telling the truth and being honest is a foreign concept in such circles.
What suffocated existence in a world of unreality!
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#176 robloop,
Just got in,too rough to fish,but so enjoyed watching the sea.Southwesterly strong the rollers were a sight to see.In my tins this time it was Bishops finger kentish strong ale.I have had a very good day...
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183 Rob the only person you confuse is yourself.
You are a bigot. and many here have seen and read for themselves the posts that showed you to be a bigot.
You were trying to deride Tim by saying he was like simon (which YOU consider an insult, though I suspect that Tim would rather be confused with Simon than You.I'll let him take that on if he likes).
Simon says it as he sees it as you do. You tend to see it from a more bigoted point of view though.
He dislikes racist twits it seems (big deal).
And I have no problem pointing out when a black person does wrong.
And you might have noticed I am not the typical American so you tryng to link me to their way of thinking is a joke.
You however have shown yourself to think like the stereotypical white south african with dutch descent.
As for humour, if you wish I would be grateful to hear some from you.
But I doubt it.
Was your hero Bernard Manning?
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Rob,
No mirrors in your vicinity?Complain about this comment
re. 175. robloop:
I do not "parrot Simon's endlessly repeated load of trash." I haven't actually read much of what Simon says (sorry Simon, but there it is). I do think on my own and I've been around long enough to understand that anger doesn't really get you anywhere. Well, anywhere good.
If you look back over your posts, you'll see that you express a great deal of hostility to quite a long list of individuals and groups, both on this blog and in the world in general. It doesn't really matter whether you're right or wrong in your convictions. The degree of hostility you routinely express is simply not healthy.
And I really wouldn't describe holding grievances against a large number of groups as being even-handed. Do you really want to be identified by the number of people you dislike?
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186 lol ED I suspect he has many mirrors that he bought when he heard of these strange devices that show ones own glory.
But those people did not know he was related to MA .
And Vampires don't show up in mirrors.
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185 happylaze
No, not "deride" just express disppointment that he'd swallow what Simon the nitwit had been saying. Why don't you read the posting again and try to comprehend - through the fog.
Your idea of a bigot is someone who does not see the world from your politically correct perspective, and who speaks candidly about the realities of the things he observes around him.
I have never seen you point out when a black person has done wrong. You wouldn't dare.
As for your drivel about South African stereotypes, the less said the better. Your ignorance speaks for itself and the notion you evidently have that I will be intimidated by such accusation speaks for itself. You are the epitome of a slave to political correctness, a process I consider cowardly and dishonest.
186 Ed Iglehart
Ed, you wouldn't recognize humour or truth if it hit you in the face. To you it is a detestable commodity, so cut the bull.
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re. 182. bere54:
179, happy:
I think the ultimate derivation of the word "can" is the German "kanne", which is a jug, pot, or canister--or by extension, a tankard. I don't know if the word entered American usage with the large German immigration in the early 19th century or if it passed through Anglo-Saxon and Old English into British usage.
To can (verb) something is simply to put it in a "kanne" for the purposes of preservation. A tin can (noun) refers to its shape. The word tin modifies the word can. Don't know where the British use of the word "tin" (noun) for a metal container came from.
Aren't you glad you asked? :-)
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Right!!!!
All of you - calm down!
Thank you
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190, timohio -
Well, thank you so much for that. I used to know German, but when one hasn't used a language for 37 years, one tends to forget.
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re. 183. robloop:
What exactly is it that marks Americans as moral cowards on the issue of race? I can assure you that there is no shortage of white Americans who are willing to label the attitudes of black Americans as racist.
I think Americans have done a fairly decent job in the last 50 years of moving away from racial stereotypes and towards some kind of accommodation with one another.
Speaking personally, I remember vividly as a 15 year old in Detroit watching army helicopters flying over my house to deposit troops to put down the civil unrest that killed at least 40 people and burned out a large section of the city. I could smell the smoke from the burning buildings from my house. The whites in the suburbs were stockpiling guns and ammunition in case it spread. Thank God no carload of young black guys got off the wrong freeway exit or it would have been much worse than it was.
Ten years later Detroit had a definitely racist black mayor who got himself re-elected by a black majority population by white-baiting. I thought at that time that there was no hope for racial understanding.
Then I moved 60 miles south to Ohio and found that not all of America was like Detroit. I'm currently living in a thoroughly integrated neighborhood where people get along pretty nicely. The only problem in recent years was a white racist teenager who soaped racial epithets on a black family's car windshield. What he didn't realize was that the black family was a whole lot better liked than he was. The kid and his family moved out; the black family is still here. When it snows I shovel my black neighbor's sidewalk if I get to it first, and he shovels mine if he's out first. Things are cool. The only problem for me is smelling traditional black barbecues when I'm on a diet. Trust me, there is no more enticing aroma. That's a lot better than smelling smoke from burning buildings.
America elected a black president who wasn't afraid to talk about race during the campaign. How many countries that are not black-majority have elected a black leader?
So we're dealing with racial tensions and stereotypes in our own way. Butting heads and shouting at each other doesn't solve the problems. We tried that and it didn't work. Chatting over the fence is a better approach. It takes time to do it right. We're on the right path and we'll get there.
And by the way, I have no particular animosity towards South Africans. Your president has some curious ideas about AIDS, but someone in your country makes a pretty nice Chenin Blanc.
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190 yes
thanks(I find words interesting).
Tin would be the tin they were smiting.
There are lots of old tin mines in the south west of the UK.
Seeing as it is not used in the same way in the UK I would guess it is used here because of the German population.
ROB
"I have never seen you point out when a black person has done wrong. You wouldn't dare. "
I have yet to have any cause to on this blog.
Now If we were talking about somewhere like Zimbabwe I would have a lot of nasty things to say about Mr. Mugabe ,But we are not.
You need some haze
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15145917/
we have been through this before.
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191 opps
yes sir
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re. 192. bere54:
"I used to know German, but when one hasn't used a language for 37 years, one tends to forget."
I know exactly what you mean. Long ago I had to learn several languages for my graduate degree. Recently I found myself working with an Italian. Italian was the one language in which I actually had some conversational fluency. Fortunately his English was better than my fading memories of Italian. Embarrassing. Will I get to the point where I no longer remember English?
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Hey Rob your comments about hoovers
As a south african why are you so concerned about hoovers being made in the USA.
Hoover had to sell their name to make up for the http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/133524.stm
maybe.
No I agree moving companies away to use cheaper easier to abuse workers is disgusting.
Equal rights for Chinese workers. Equal pay to.
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Robloop,
Well, I'll give you credit: you speak your heart. And I cannot remember you saying anything that is overtly 'racist.'
But then, I grew up surrounded by guys like you, who, and I think you would concede this, harbour more than a few glaring prejudices (or, if you prefer, negative over generalizations) toward groups of people. From 163 above, e.g., immigrants, refugees, Muslims, corporate executives, socialist minded nits. And so on (I think I'm such a nit, by the way).
And yes, I have my own set of prejudices. Though I do try to be aware of them, and allow them to be challenged (and if this is what you mean by 'politically correct,' well so be it).
The funny thing is, that most often the prejudices (of lots of people I've known, and myself of course as well) don't usually get applied to particular cases. So that the negative generalizations don't preclude a reasonable assessment of individual situations. And I believe that would be true of you, as well.
You sweepingly condemn false refugees, but I'd bet you would not apply that condemnation to the story of my Kurdish friend, and the means he used to get his mother and two sisters into Canada. It is a complex story, but I believe you would see the essential justice in his actions.
Nor, I think, would you condemn his Islamic faith.
Of course, I could be wrong, and then we really would not have much more to say to each other. But I don't think that I am wrong, and until proven otherwise I will always be happy to show you the error of you ways, er, I mean happy to try and find some middle ground.
And ukwales is quite right: when the world looks like a big sack of poop, take some cans and go fishing. Or share a spliff with happylazy and bang some tin. Or whatever it is that floats yer boat.
Yours,
Pinko
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193 timohio
Thanks for bothering to write that very pleasant posting and give me some idea of you experiences. A very encouraging account of life where you are.
As a matter of interest, it was a black American who accused Americans of 'moral cowardice over race'.
The South African president who had weird ideas about AIDS, Thabo Mbeki, is gone, ousted by his own party. The trouble with Mbeki was not only his nutty notions about AIDS, but also his support of the murderous Robert Mugabe next door who has destroyed his country, Zimbabwe, been responsible for the murder of thousands, and continues with measures that will drag Zim deeper into a mess.
They make many lovely wines in South Africa, the wine industry having been established by the French Huguenots (Protestants) who during the 1680s fled Louis XIV's France rather than lose their heads.
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The leaving of our military will not be the lesson learned concerning our invasion, setting up a government, military and economic system.. The lesson will be if a government can be formed in a nation that took no part in the overthrow of it leaders.
Harsh words. A harsher reality for the people who think they are free when they are in danger, more danger now then under Saddam! History has shown that a nation run buy the strenth of a super power fails if the people are not willing to fight and die for that central government. I feel this is the case in Iraq. I do not see the willingness to put family, fortune and lives in front of personal greed. I do not see the debth of involvement by the average person to fight the men and women that are willing to die, that is required to build a nation. What I do see is a blood bath starting one day after the American force has left. I see those Americans left being flown out and hundreds of Iraqi citizens breaking down the embassie gates to gain a flight to freedom. What I see is a mismanaged war, started by the oil and business interests and lead by self serving small minded men who should be, at the very least be put in prison for stupidy or have every item the own stripped from them because of their blind ambition and want to show what great men they were.
But in Iraq I see an orderly withdrawl of American forces and then a civil war lasting a few short bloody months.
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How long more will America and the world be ‘un-democratic’, ‘un-Christian’ and ‘un-Islamic’ with regards to war and peace?
How long more?
How long more will humanity quench her conscience in defending eye-for-an-eye , power-hungry, and money-driven killing industries, while untenably holding on to her inhumane disguises of democracy and religion?
ourjourneytosmile.com
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Tim (193), Namaste
Thanks for that. It takes time, but there is definite progress. Your fifty year timespan takes me back to being a 17 year old, just heading off to a still effectively all-white University, watching the Brown v Board of Education decision's results gradually change the face of my Southern homeland...and on through Selma and the MLK Dream, and on....It's not over yet, but the direction of movement is positive.
Then let us pray that come it may
(As come it will for a' that)
That Sense and Worth o'er a' the earth
Shall bear the gree an' a' that!
For a' that, an' a' that,
It's comin yet for a' that,
That man to man the world o'er
Shall brithers be for a' that.
The Burns Unit
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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198 Chronophobe
I'll say one things in your favour, you are civilized in your disagreement, but you misconstrue some things I say. I'm not against immigrants, just those who, like bogus refugees, lie and cheat their way into a country at the expense of those who try to enter legally. Do you remember those
'immigrants' who on flights from the sub-continent of Asia to Canada used to (and maybe still do) tear up their passports, stuff the remains down the toilet, and upon arrival in Canada claim refugee status? - and then got benefits to which they otherwise would not have been entitled?
Re Muslims, my aversion is toward those who conducts acts of terror, those who either support them or refuse to condemn their violent actions, and upon arrival in another country make no effort to assimilate or accommodate the country of adoption. I could expand on this at length, but will spare you the pain.
Why on earth would you have any aversion to my criticism of corporate executives who are insatiably greedy and who through their incompetence have run corporations into the ground, causing thousands to lose their jobs?
Politically correct individuals are those play the game of saying things, no matter how untruthful, are 'unoffensive' even when honest bluntness is called for.
Re me not ever saying something
"overtly" racist, I will tell you this because it might strike a cord. In 1977, in South Africa, a black activist, Steve Biko, died in police custody under disgraceful circumstances. (A movie, 'Cry Freedom', was later made of those times). After Biko's death, for ten years, in newspapers, I wrote scathing things against the government of that time. For that I lived on 'the edge', phone bugged, mail opened, and the chance of house arrest or 90 day detentions. About six years ago my mother told me she thought I'd get a bullet in the back of my head.
So now possibly you can understand my contempt for the 'racism' accusations thrown my way on this blog.
I make no apology for speaking my mind truthfully. I did so in South Africa at a time when it was downright unhealthy and could have cost me dearly, and I guess that is now just me. Harsh realities developed in me a deep aversion to the B.S. factor and I value truthfulness highly.
I enjoyed ukwales's approach. He was right, when you get back (from fishing) nothing has changed.
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re. 199. robloop:
One thing I didn't mention is that you see increasing numbers of biracial couples in my part of the world. When I was a teenager, that was extremely rare (which makes Barack Obama's parents quite interesting). I think it's a sign that people are beginning to relax a bit. Both black and white. Serious social problems like racism don't get solved by passing some laws. I think that's the lesson of the 60s and 70s It takes time and goodwill and talking over the back fence. A "serious discussion about race" doesn't do as much good as a casual chat about this and that.
Like chronophobe, my way through the racial maze is to try to deal with everyone as an individual rather than as a specimen from a group. That works for every stereotype you can imagine. I grew up thinking that gays were, to put it bluntly, perverts. Then, as a young adult I discovered that a good friend was gay. That was troubling at first, but then I realized that there was really no reason to stop liking the guy. It was my attitudes that were the problem. And so I started to change in that regard. The same has happened with Muslims, Hispanics, everyone. Little steps on a long journey. It takes time. I think my son, who is a young adult, completely lacks the stereotypes I grew up with. So we make progress.
As far as it being a black American who made the statement about moral cowardice, I think he needs to look inward before judging others. The strongest fences are the ones we build around ourselves.
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202 193
It'll come sure enough.
And it is true that Rob has toned things down. Good on that.
See when a greater foe than race comes up he forgets.
Like the evil weed (which he is not alone in his hatred of,thats legally encouraged).
Personally diverse communities that have not given up their identities to blend in are the best. Where they can be found.
On the topic of Bigotry May I recommend a film about gentrification in Ohio called
"Flag Wars" .
There Rob can see some examples of bigotry that are exposed on all sides of the community.
A documentary so don't expect action.
How housing codes are used to kick out the people living here. Filmed over 4 years It was amazing to see some trying to justify what was some sick thinking.
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using the miracle of the net here's a link.
http://www.pbs.org/pov/pov2003/flagwars/
this war will not stop anytime soon.Unfortunately.
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re. 205. happylaze:
I came away from the 60s with a conviction that no one ever changed their mind from being shouted at. There was a lot of shouting in the 60s and it solved absolutely nothing.
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With all this talk of prejudice and Hoovers, I have to admit that I am prejudiced against all vacuum cleaners (not just Hoover brand), space heaters, cordless phones, and answering machines made in China. But since the word "prejudice" means to pre-judge something, perhaps my contempt of these products is not prejudice after all, since it stems from actual experience of said products.
By the way, it was Attorney General Eric Holder who accused Americans of being racial cowards. I think he has since sort of apologized (of course).
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bere,
I have no idea why your post brought this to mind, but it did.
When I was very, very small, I thought the song "Go Tell it on the Mountain" went like this:
Go tell it on the mountain,
Hoover the fields,
and underwear ... .
My grandfather was greatly amused, and we would belt out the tune together.
Yours,
Pinko
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re. 208. bere54:
You'll be hard-pressed to find any consumer appliance that isn't made in China.
"By the way, it was Attorney General Eric Holder who accused Americans of being racial cowards."
Until about a month ago Eric Holder was a corporate attorney. He made his living butting heads with people. That may be the way you win court cases, but it's not the way to solve problems. I think his boss has a better way to go about things.
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209, chrono -
I do like your version of the song! And now it's probably going to be stuck in my head forever.
210, timohio -
Perhaps Holder will learn a thing or two from his boss. Although I have found that some problems can be solved by butting heads when nothing else works. I have learned that sometimes it is appropriate to coo, and that other times only a shriek will bring results. I suspect Obama will find himself in situations when only the knocking together of stubborn heads will be efficacious. But I do hope he won't shriek. It is so unmanly.
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196, timohio.
"I know exactly what you mean. Long ago I had to learn several languages for my graduate degree. Recently I found myself working with an Italian. Italian was the one language in which I actually had some conversational fluency. Fortunately his English was better than my fading memories of Italian. Embarrassing."
I think you would be surprised if you were placed in a position where you HAD to speak the language. I was in the Ivory Coast a few years ago. I had to straighten out a problem and I managed to dredge up my schoolgirl French (all of which I thought I had forgotten) because I had to. I didn't sound great, but got my point across. The same thing happened to me in Lebanon. I wonder how much lies hidden in our brains.
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212, allmymarbles -
Yep, it's funny about our brains and language. Many years ago when I was on a kibbutz, a bunch of us American kids had been dropped off at the crack of dawn in an olive grove, and while waiting to be told what to do, we tried to get some water from a spigot sticking out of the ground. Nothing happened. And old man wandered up and said, "Someone will be along soon to turn on the water." I nodded and thanked him, and he wandered off again. The other kids looked at me oddly and asked, "What did he say?" Only then did I realize the old man had spoken in German. It had been ten years since I had heard German spoken on a daily basis, and yet being addressed in German seemed so natural that I didn't even notice it.
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213, bere.
But if you knew ahead of time that he was going to speak German, you would have been flustered, and possibly had a hard time understanding him.
Since you speak another language perhaps you will enjoy this:
I was returning from France with my two eldest children and we were passing through Iranian customs. The customs officer asked me a question in English and I answered him in French. He then spoke to me in French and I answered him in Farsi. All of this happened without my thinking. I simply answered in the wrong language each time. He and I had a good laugh, but my children were mortified to have such an idiot mother.
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Tim, Bere, Miss Marbles 196, 212,213,214
Language and its development of the brain is endlessly fascinating, and sadly ignored by both the British and American school systems.
I was fortunate to have a French teacher for a mother, and so was brought up with foreign languages as something normal.
I speak French and Italian fluently and German well enough that Germans often think I'm Dutch (never British), and in Britain I'd be called a linguist - in the rest of Europe I'm just well-educated!
Like Miss Marbles I sometimes get tongue-twisted, especially when switching quickly from one to the other. It's all part of the fun. But even if I haven't spoken for a while, it's incredible how it just switches back on atomatically.
Now that my oldest son is 3 and talking all the time we are having great fun watching his amazing brain develop both English and Italian at once (my wife and I speak only our mother tongues to the children).
Marbles, you wonder "how much lies hidden in our brains".
The answer I suspect is "everything that was ever put in there!"
Current thinking shows that children can absorb up to 4 languages from birth, with this ability decreasing dramatically from the age of about 8-9 when the neural pathways of the brain become less flexible.
We have a good friend (British) with a Greek wife and living in Italy - daughter from age of 4 was totally tri-lingual without any special training or school - and with the native accent too!
My point really is this. Although English is the de facto world language, if English speaking nations ignore other languages in schooling because we don't "need" them, then we will be the only monoglots.
Everyone else will have a competitive advantage.
Look at the USA. Imagine 20 years from now when many of the recent immigrants will be on 2nd generation of graduates, who would you employ out of 2 identical resumes - the one who speaks English only, or the one who speaks 2 or more languages?
Languages open up a whole new world of human contact - no need to be totally fluent, or even to worry too much about mistakes. The smile on a local's face when a visitor even says "Hello" in the local language says it all .... and goes a long way to counter prejudice.
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Stu and Ms Marbles,
As someone who only has "a little German", I thoroughly agree that we monoglots are stupid to allow ourselves to remain so limited. Second (and third, fourth, etc.) languages open up parts of the brain (neural pathways) otherwise unlikely to develop. Even when we were introduced to Latin (required in my time), the acceleration in supposedly unrelated areas of mental ability was noticeable in the whole class.
;-)
ed
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Re: Americans and language:
Way back when, I knew a couple where the husband was American, fluent in French and German, and the wife was Czech, fluent in English and German. They had a child and decided, since they were living in the U.S., that the father would speak to her only in French and the mother only in German, and that she would learn English simply by virtue of living here.
You would not believe (or maybe you would) the flak this couple received from "well-meaning" Americans who were convinced the child would become psychotic due to hearing different languages on a daily basis, and would never learn any language properly.
I haven't seen this child since she was three, but at that time she was fluent in three languages (or as much as a 3-year-old can be) and also had a smattering of Czech. There were no signs of psychosis.
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re: bere54, allmymarbles, Ed Inglehart, RomeStu
The whole issue of foreign languages in the US is incredibly complicated. We are a nation of immigrants. You would think that would mean that we would all be polyglots. But historically, learning English has been the marker that you have given up your original national identity and considered yourself to be an American. The second generation has typically shunned the language of their parents. Not quite so true now, but it certainly was in the past.
I'm fairly typical. Half of my family is ethnically German. My grandparents grew up in a German-speaking enclave in Ontario. I remember that my grandmother always spoke with a German accent. My father, who grew up in Detroit, never learned German, and with the anti-German sentiment after World War II, speaking German was viewed with a certain amount of suspicion. It was the language of the bad guys in all the war movies. So I didn't start to learn German until I was in graduate school and it was a painful process. I was only able to gain basic reading knowledge. And it was quite ironic for me that this was the birth-language of my grandparents.
Part of the fallout from this pattern is that in much of the US for much of its history, the only people speaking foreign languages were the newly-arrived immigrants, who had low social status. So there wasn't much impetus for native English-speakers to learn foreign languages. And other than immigrant ghettos (which would have been considered risky to visit), at least in the Midwest it would have been difficult for a middle class English-speaking American to hear a foreign language spoken on the street. In Europe you can turn on the radio and hear a foreign language or hop on a train and be in a country speaking a different language in a matter of a couple of hours, but most Americans in the middle of the country are surrounded for hundreds of miles by other English-speaking people. That takes away any sense of urgency for learning a foreign language. I didn't hear a foreign language spoken on the street until I was in my 20s and visited Quebec on my honeymoon.
I think it's different for my son's generation. My generation institutionalized the summer vacation spent backpacking in Europe, and the junior year abroad program. I think that has made a difference in our attitudes about foreign languages. They are no longer things that you study but never use. I proofread my son's resume for him recently and was startled to see that he was claiming 12 years of courses in French. I had been eager to get him in an elementary school where he could study a foreign language at a young age, but I had never added up all of the years of classes he had taken. He's fairly fluent now, apparently. Plus he's studied Latin, Greek, and Italian. I hope it all sticks in his brain better than my languages have stuck in mine. And I hope his pattern is more common than it would have been for my generation.
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218, timohio -
I lived in Germany from the age of 6 to 9. My father was an army officer but we did not live on the base; rather, we lived what the military called "on the economy" in a "normal" neighborhood in Heidelberg. My siblings and I spent all of our time outside school with German children and picked up the language easily. My older sister was sent, for our last year there, to a German school and by the time we returned to the States she was fluent in reading and writing as well as speaking.
Most of the American military community lived fairly isolated lives on the military base. We knew only one other American family who chose to immerse themselves in the culture of the country. I've always been grateful to my parents for providing us with that opportunity to learn another language and experience a different culture. We also travelled during every school vacation so that before I was 9 years old I had been to France, Denmark, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, and Austria, as well as to every corner of West Germany.
For some odd reason, my parents left us at home with babysitters when they went to Rome, Paris, and Vienna. Some icky thing having to do with romance, they claimed. That I've never forgiven them for!
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215, RomeStu.
There is yet another advantage to speaking more than one language. Culture becomes encrypted in language. This provides the bilingual, or multilingual different views of the world. The more alien the additional language, the more advantageous in this respect.
In reference to what you said about children growing up bi- or multilingual, our youngest, from the beginning, was trilingual. Much later, at the age of six, she added a fourth language. In learning languages, children bypass rules and structures. Perhaps we should rethink our method of teaching foreign languages to adults.
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217, bere.
I am glad the multi-lingual baby did not turn out to be psychotic. (Fortunately, neither did mine.) Americans don't realize that Europeans routinely speak several languages, and are no more insane than the rest of us.
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218, timohio.
Don't you think the reason Americans don't speak foreign languages is that they don't have to? All of the countries in Europe are small by our standards. Europeans, as a matter of course, travel to neighboring countries where they encounter foreign languages. Like us they have studied these in school, but, unlike us, they get to practice them.
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Usual language phases among poor immigrants to the USA:
1st Generation--unable to speak English
2nd Generation--bi-lingual
3rd Generation--English only
If a population of immigrants to the USA is large enough, densely populated enough, or isolated enough, often the 3rd Generational transition occurs at a much slower pace if at all--but that is the exception to the rule.
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223. Bienvenue.
"1st Generation--unable to speak English
2nd Generation--bi-lingual
3rd Generation--English only"
Valid observations and probably more true today than of yesteryear. Today's immigrants seem less motivated to learn English and even push to have Spanish as a second national language. No one 100 years ago would have wanted that. They were grateful to have left Europe.
My family started arriving in this country in the 1890's, the last arriving in 1907. The only person in the family who did not speak English was my great grandmother, who was already getting on in years when she arrived. All the other foreign-borns could speak English, and even used English equivalents of their foreign given names. (this may have been more typical of large cities where there was less isolation.) They were very proud to be Americans. Their children, for the most part, were bi-lingual. And, you are right, the next generation spoke only English.
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224, allmymarbles -
My grandfather came from Russia as a young man and by the time I knew him he spoke fairly good English, albeit with a very heavy accent. My father was not bi-lingual, but perhaps that's because his mother died when he was very young and his step-mother had been born here.
My grandparents spoke Yiddish when they didn't want us grandkids to understand them, but when we returned from Germany my sister was able to get the gist of what they were saying from her excellent knowledge of German. This was most annoying to my grandparents when they found out, which took them awhile because my sister didn't let on that she understood, but would whisper things later to my brother and me. What great fun that was!
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222 marbles except us brits who relly on them understanding us.;)
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226, happy.
I guess you are right. Not many Brits are fluent in a foreign language. Maybe that is because the dominant language now is English, much to the chagrin of the French.
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255, bere.
"My grandparents spoke Yiddish when they didn't want us grandkids to understand them, but when we returned from Germany my sister was able to get the gist of what they were saying from her excellent knowledge of German. ... my sister didn't let on that she understood, but would whisper things later to my brother and me. What great fun that was!
The same thing would happen to me, but not at home. When I was in Iran, people I didn't know would assume I could not speak Farsi. (Americans don't speak foreign languages, right?) They said many things I was not supposed to hear. Yes, that was great fun!
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228 lol in the netherlands I was able to start to follow some . But as waterman will laugh I had a problem with a few things I thought I was getting right.
UMM I wasn't .
the thick underside of something said in dutch can sound quite rude. well more than "big bottom."
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228, marbles -
When I lived on a kibbutz, I understood Hebrew quite well but was shy and inhibited about trying to speak it, and besides the Israelis always wanted to practice their English anyway. People assumed I didn't know Hebrew because I never spoke it, and I heard a lot of interesting gossip due to this. Then one evening at a party I had a bit too much to drink, lost my language inhibitions, and astonished everyone by babbling away in fairly good Hebrew. My cover was blown.
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Happy and Bere.
Here is a switcheroo on language.
I was riding in a cab in Tehran and we picked up two American women (one shares cabs in Tehran). They had trouble speaking to the driver and I interrupted and asked them where they wanted to go. Then I told the driver in Farsi. The women complimented me on my English in the patronizing manner reserved for inferiors. They thought I was Iranian!
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The reason immigrants are less motivated to learn English is because the liberals are trying to push the agenda of acceptance and valuing other cultures. It's a load of malarkey. My great-grandparents were German immigrants, who learned English extremely quickly. They were proud to be Americans. Not European-Americans, not German-Americans, Americans. The terrorists all over the world, but particularly in the Middle East, aren't concerned about killing African-Americans, Asian-Americans, Mexican-Americans, just Americans. We're putting more emphasis on what makes us different, not what we have in common. The only time we stop bickering is when something horrible happens, 9/11, Pearl Harbor, etc. Then we band together to hate somebody else, Arabs, Japanese, etc. It's pathetic.
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The war will never end in the Middle East. When they feel the heat, the terrorists just move over to the next little country.... They re-group and move again when necessary. Iran keeps supplying them with anything they need and we help because we won't drill here for our own oil... This government should refuse California any aid , until it uncaps their oil wells . They would clear up their own bankrupcy and be able to help the rest of the country as well.. Oil was dropping lower than a grasshopper's belly,and prices at the pump kept rising, recently... Who's watching this ? We keep wasting money on the UN, NASA, and the recent giveaways... We sit atop the biggest arsenal in the world, and go over and fight with peashooters... When we run out of our young men and women will we use what we have ? In for a penny, in for a pound ..... The middle Eastern people have a favorite saying,, " The enemy of my enemy is my friend "... We would be better served if we followed this dictum... Level Iran before it's too late....
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yukkapuck
so when exactly did they let you out?
"Arsenal " Very appropriate word for you to use.
I'll have the heart cause I support heartlypool
I'll have the liver because I support liverpool
I support Arsenal but I ain't eating it.
Old kiddies joke.
Oil, Spills.
Tends not to contain itself ( as I had similar problems when reading your post.Laugh ?I almost pissed myself )
and australia is suffering a little of that right now. Glad you introduced this
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25175012-952,00.html
just incase you forgot to notice.
ps incitement to genocide is not a smart thing.
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To Happy Laze... We Americans know all about Genocide... We have Pearl Harbor, and 9/11 to remind us...
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Yukkapuk,
Have you had a look at a topographical map?Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I hope that the US is smart enough to stay out of Iran now that it has signed a Oil agreement with China and Russia. We all know what Countries with swelled military heads do when another country tries to take Oil! Iraq is a country with no more people in it than Canada, and the US does not have a strong enough military to overthrow it. Now that the North American economies are crushed due to George W. Bush and his monster team INVADING Iraq, President Obama wants to sanction Iran and cause even more chaos in the world. The only reason why a country who has extreme nuclear capabilities as the US would sanction a country who is trying to start a nuclear program in order to stop them, is because they did something previously that would warrant a defensive measure from the suppressed country. If North Korea, China, North Vietnam, Russia, The Middle East, South America, and any other country that might have a chip on its shoulder against the mighty US decides to team up and do what the Coalition of the willing did...well lets just say it will be a whole new world that we live in. They will succeed where the Coalition failed....By the way...Israel still has illegal nukes...lets start the sanctioning and sever measures acts there. They are still doing to Palestine what Iraq supposedly did to Iran...they Invaded for gain backed by the US...but even this could be false because the news is all one sided and edited for all us sheep
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235. At 1:34pm on 13 Mar 2009, yukkapuck wrote:
"To Happy Laze... We Americans know all about Genocide... We have Pearl Harbor, and 9/11 to remind us..."
What genocide?
9/11 wasn't genocide and neither was pearl harbour.
what americans know, is often about as true as you.(fortunately my anglo side is so bright it makes up for the inferior American blood within.;;))( no insult americans that want a "Not all "in there)
Look up genocide.
Two attacks two days and two different peoples ,that is not genocide.
However the Lack of Indigenous population (or rather greatly reduced) is a sign of one genocide americans Know all about but Ignore.
236 ED, first you might have to explain what a map is. I doubt that someone that calls 9/11 genocide is all that bright.
"Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group."wiki
I fail to see anyway that 9/11 can be seen as genocide.
many races and many nationalities. No systematic.
as for pearl harbour again and no system.
Now the trail of tears or the spread of those dodgy blankets and that INDIAN wars and that systematic destruction of Palestinians and not to forget Rwanda and turkey et ALL. Now that was genocide.
Seems he needs the reminder he thought he got on 9/11
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