Everyone's a winner?
So he wants time. That is the central message of the Canada visit. Mr Obama will not be rushed into confrontation of even the mildest kind.
He leapt down the steps of Air Force One like a game-show host - and comported himself during his six hours north of the border as if the whole shebang could end with everyone taking home all the prizes.
Canada intends to pull its troops out of Afghanistan. Fine, let's talk about something else: how wonderful they have been, or how nice it would be if the fighting could be augmented by diplomacy and aid.
Canada objects to the president's desire to re-negotiate the NAFTA deal. Fine, let's talk about how important free trade is while still (apparently) toying with the idea of changing the deal in the future.
Perhaps this relationship-building is a necessary part of leading the US in the post-Bush world, but I do wonder whether foreign leaders are going to get a real sense of what Obama stands for. They may be tempted to take liberties. Will he take off his shoe and bang the table at the NATO summit in France in April?
After all you don't need to be John Bolton or Karl Rove to accept that there will be limits to the president's room for compromise and amiable discourse in the future. Even as he arrives back in Washington, the storm clouds gather.
Having said that, the waitress was wearing an Obama T-shirt when I had my fish and chips in Ottawa tonight. His approval ratings here are at 80%. Canadian television treated him with the respect they would normally reserve for the Pope. This can be bottled and used. It is the epitome of soft power.
Hello, I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~55~RS~)
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Justin,
You seem like a pretty switched on guy but the closer (cutaway to skaters on the Rideau Canal) in the 'Mr Obama Goes to Ottawa' piece on BBC World was pretty gormless: So post-Obama visit Canadians can return "to their ice-bound winter lives with a warm feeling inside?"
Huh? Almost fell off the bench where I was waxing the runners on my dog sled.
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And now it's four Canadian topics in three days! We are overwhelmed.
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when I had my fish and chips in Ottawa tonight
Oh, God, Justin -- you didn't? Your boyish good looks (as timewaits observed, I wouldn't know about such things) won't last like that.
Are you here for another night? There's a Cordon Bleu up across from the park on Laurier St. Or, Google Beckta's. You've saved enough on your per diem today, and you deserve it.
Cheers,
Pinko
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Justin,
I trust you had a proper cup of tea with your fish and chips?
I was almost convinced that you didn't know Canada existed until today.
Soft Power? Absolutely. That is how we roll.
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Timewaits,
You may feel free to break out the bacon, Mr Canadian man.
:D
PS If you don't get that joke, I will be SO disappointed!
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"He leapt down the steps of Air Force One like a game-show host . . . the waitress was wearing an Obama T-shirt when I had my fish and chips in Ottawa tonight."
Now we know Justin's taste in both television shows and cooking. Perhaps that explains many of his observations.
"Canadian television treated him with the respect they would normally reserve for the Pope."
And why not? After all, he is the most powerful man in the world.
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#6, David_Cunard wrote:
Now we know Justin's taste in both television shows and cooking. Perhaps that explains many of his observations.
If you're talking about his constant chicken references, I'd say that's a canard, David.
A tasteless one, too.
Make no bones about it.
-FreeClench
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Id say that at the end of this first trip abroad for Pres. Obama as Pres. everyone was a winner.
But Justin's also right about NATO and NAFTA; the US has a high tolerance for its allies bending the rules and skirting their responsibilities, after all we are guilty of the same thing, but there comes a time when its time to own up-as we are attempting to do with our economic situation-and that time is fast approaching for our NATO allies who have not fully done their duty in Afghanistan.
Canada, your soldiers have fought the good hard fight alongside US soldiers, so no hard feelings about your leaving Afghanistan on this end, and the same to the UK and their soldiers in Iraq; yall deserve the break.
(Sorry to all other coalition nations I left out, you know I mean the same about you)
But the work is still not done in Afghanistan and the US needs all the help our Allies-as the NATO charter requires-can give us in this endeavor, especially now that the vital base in Kyrgyzstan has been ordered to close.
This posting is not meant to twist any arms, but it is meant to remind our allies of the importance and necessity of their shared responsibility.
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President Obama has a very relaxed warm attitude. Primarily he would like to cultivate strong ties with Canada. This first trip as President will pave the way for close cooperation in so many different areas. Setting the right tone will certainly strengthen the cordial relationship between the two countries. Of course sticky points will have to be ironed out at a later stage. So by visting his neighbours first and paying close attention to their immediate concerns are excellent ways of creating an excellent bond and working relationship. Canada has provided troops in Afghanistan and the President would like the Canadians to continue supporting the military missions there. But Afghanistan is becoming a quagmire and it is important to understand Canadian reservations about continuing military support there. Obama will have to use his persuasive skills very very well!
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Justin Webb does it again and again. He represents the country of both my parents birthplace and usually fawns over anything American. This time, he reports on the ice-bound frozen north in his commentary on the Obama visit to Ottawa. Perhaps Justin is a wee bit jealous that Obama chose Canada first to visit instead of the UK, traditional of U.S. presidents. We all remember the fawning poodle in Mr. Bush's lap who was given an important posting by Bush never to be heard from again. So, Justin comes reluctantly north to Canada and pulls out all the stops on his Canuck sterotypes, tears streaming down his frozen face on the Rideau Canal - Ottawa's ice-bound world attraction - in winter. Yes, Justin, we have returned to an era where Canada is respected again by a new president who knows the significance of our alliances. Justin, come back in the spring, or summer, or fall, for that matter and see why Obama loves this country, but leave the colonial baggage behind.
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Our relationship with Canada and Mexico is very important, not only because they are our neighbors but because of the impact that NAFTA has on our countries and the trade deficits we have with both which contribute in no small part to the economic woes we are experiencing.
Sadly, aside from friendly relations there is little we can do to balance trade or mitigate the effects of the current deficits. They don't seem to be too interested in the few things we still manufacture, and we don't seem to be interested in replacing our gas guzzlers with hybrids or drive less.
Well, at least President Obama did not spend the night there enjoying a lavish dinner, unlike Pelosi and her entourage or so many of his fellow citizens whose only option is a fast food restaurant.
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Beyond the pleasanties of friendly relations with our neighbors and other such distractions, lie our serious economic and fiscal problems and the emergence of of a right wing government led by Netanyahu that is surely bound to derail whatever little chance there was for peace in the Middle East.
I doubt our trade relations with Canada and Mexico will change much, other than some purfunctory concessions to help us overcome the malaise that is killing us at home, what is going to be a major challenge is dealing with an Israeli government that may not listen to their sugar Daddy and that could easily unleash forces that could lead to a huge military confrontation throughout the Islamic world with serious consequences to all of us.
Since we are not going to turn off the oil spiket any time soon, I think we should consider stopping all financial and military aid to Israel until the Israeli-Palestinian crisis is solved. One can always dream...
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Ref 8
"...remind our allies of the importance and necessity of their shared responsibility."
The problem is that most of our trading partners and/or allies do not feel they have to share responsibility for our actions in the Middle East, Persian Gulf or Asia Minor.
There are also some who would not mind dissolving NATO at a time when its original goal is no longer a justification for maintaining a relic of the Cold War.
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Well, since this visit was the equivalent of the first visit to meet and greet one's new neighbors upon moving into the neighborhood, why does it need to be substantive? It was pleasant and short and ended with positive feelings all around. No need for confrontation over anything this early in the relationship...leave the barking dogs and the loud parties for another time.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Carolina Lady (14),
Seconded!
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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#7. freeclench: "If you're talking about his constant chicken references, I'd say that's a canard, David."
I think I'll duck that one . . .
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Canard ? A Canadian one at that
Just ducky in the great North?
Beware of game show hosts with gifts
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So far I have seen nothing from the new President.
Here is the real future; a five year fix on oil prices, no more the $1.00 a day change, DOW to 4650 with a high range at 5200, electricity fixed for five years, all jobs as preformance based not years of service, interest rates on homes at 2.3 to 2.5%, CEO's and government leaders charged with political and economic treason, an 80% pull back of military from around the world, no oil bought from any country not in the Americas, money again fixed to a real artical or group of manufactoring/medical/banking rates.
Any one doing business in the USA, North America has to agree to American taxes/codes. Free college after five years of military service. Work to get government help, even if it is sweeping streets.
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I think that this is going to be a typical pattern
for the Obama administration: charm the public
of our allies while he leaves the dirty work
to Pelosi and Reid.
If Hitler had visited Paris before attacking Poland,
and put on this kind of show, he would have
been able to conquer France without firing a shot.
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'...but I do wonder whether foreign leaders are going to get a real sense of what Obama stands for.'
Well, in reality--nothing. The whole goal and thrust of his life has been to be elected President, with little thought given to real governance. Look behind the sloganeering, and you find...nothing.
The Iranians, whom Himself declared to not be a threat(therefore they aren't!) now have enough fissile material for a nuclear weapon.
They are taking delivery on an advanced Russian air-defence system that only our F-22 has a chance of overcoming.
And, the Pentagon just announced that the F-22 production will severely curtailed beginning in March.
But it's all ok--Himself is at the helm, smiling that big ol' smile.
Let's just hold hands and chant 'Yes, we can!', and it all will be OK....Oprah assures us that He is The One, so we must be ok, right?
I mean, like, he's got Tim Geithner running the Treasury, and Hilary on the Asian chat show circuit..so it's all ok...
And, the stock market seems to be reacting well to all his initiatives to date...right?
Group Hug!!
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The relationship between Canada and the U.S. is unique in many ways, not the least of which is that while the discourse between Ottawa and Washington may get all the attention, there is constant communication between the citizenry of both countries that cannot be controlled or even effectively shaped by either government. I think that Mr. Obama and Mr. Harper achieved in this first meeting what Canadians and Americans wanted: an affirmation of enduring friendship, kinship, and common values between the two peoples. I think citizens of both countries would say that this is a top priority whenever leadership of either country changes (and in this case recently both have).
Tough issues will arise and we'll deal with them in due course. We're pretty good at making deals with each other.
As far as Canada pulling its troops out of combat operations in Afghanistan, my reaction is the same as the President's: thanks to Canada for what they've done already. I believe Americans mourn the loss of a Canadian soldier in much the same way we mourn one of our own. The fact is that Canada wasn't attacked, and really, if it weren't for its close relationship with the U.S., I can't see that they run any real danger of being attacked in the future. Canadians are just so darn nice. No one hates them. So, despite what Mr. Harper said yesterday, they're in Afghanistan because their friends to the south were attacked and they felt the need to pitch in. If they need to pull out, that's fine. We could sure use Canadian help (because they fight like hockey players), but there are no hard feelings.
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19, William1950, aren't you being just a tad
unrealistic? What makes you think that the
government has (or should have) the powers
to do these things?
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Re: 21 OldSouth
... Loved your post ...
Don't spoil the ending.
Your post is like reading the last page of a suspenseful novel and skipping the middle.
We still have 4 years to live the fantasy and 30 more to pay for it.
Your "group hug" is about right. (Except it will be to stay warm.)
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"They are taking delivery on an advanced Russian air-defence system that only our F-22 has a chance of overcoming."
Maybe. I remember dire warnings that the Iraqis advanced Soviet air defense systems would wipe out our aircraft during Operation Desert Storm. I don't think we lost even one aircraft during the initial attack. I suspect the Ruskies are bluffing.
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#10 8597 Kitty
I must say I missed whatever it is Justin said that made you so angry!
What makes you think Justin / UK begrudges Obama's visit to Canada? What is it you think we have against you?
# 20 gunsandreligion:
"If Hitler had visited Paris before attacking Poland,
and put on this kind of show, he would have
been able to conquer France without firing a shot"
Are you implying conquering France was difficult?!
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OldSouth, AndyPost, let's not assume the worst
here. Even if we had the F-22 in large numbers,
we would still need land bases near Iran from
which to launch attacks, and the Iraqis are kicking
us out.
Geopolitically, the Iranian problem is bound
to become less of an American problem over
time. Neighboring Arab (and Jewish) states are
more directly threatened.
For our long-term security, ending the Israeli-Arab
conflict, and continuing to develop the missile
defense system are more important.
Besides, the F-22 is an air superiority fighter,
and too expensive to use as a fighter-bomber.
If we wanted to wipe out Iranian air defenses,
we would probably do it with a combination
of B-2's and F-35's, which we will have in
large numbers.
Assuming, of course, that we don't have to
go nuclear - and hopefully some diplomacy
will avert that terrible prospect.
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#26, they had to use a few bullets, and it took about
6 weeks. With Obama's charm, Hitler could have
done it in about 3 days in an expedia flight-premium
hotel combination deal.
Of course, if you throw in a car, that probably
would have put him over the threshold.
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Ref 21, OldSouth
"They are taking delivery on an advanced Russian air-defence system that only our F-22 has a chance of overcoming."
Would you mind explaining why a defensive system in a country half way around the globe represents a concern or threat to our national security? Does this mean we - or Israel - have the right to enter the air space of other nations with impunity and any obstacle to that divine right is evil and must be destroyed?
I remember similar claims about Saddam Hussein's formidable air defenses, only to find out the whole thing was a ruse. I would not be surprised if this is part of a ploy being advanced by Israel to justify a unilateral attack against Iran's nuclear plant in the not too distant future, which is likely to include the use of tactical nuclear weapons.
After all, a new war front may help extricate the West from our economic woes. Think about all the employment opportunities that will become available with companies like Halliburton, Bechtel, Blackwater USA, and others; expecially now than Cheney and Rumsfeld are once again available to lend their expertise. As for President Obama, well, AIPAC will deal with that annoying impediment to "progress" with their traditional effectiveness (I apologize in advance for the sarcasm).
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Sooo -
Kindness in a president is reprehensible?
Open, good relations with foreigners is at least suspect if not ridiculous?
You have been watching too much dramanews. Find the original, complete remarks and speeches. I know they are longer than your attention span and full of incredibly boring facts, but that's good for you, chewy and full of fiber like real food.
This man is brilliant and has done more with his four weeks in office than any of his predecessors.
I remember the sore heads and blank-faced disbelief in 1994 when two generations of Democrats were swept out of office. Stunned is not an adequate description.
We republicans lost last fall across the board - in all regions and all demographics. Denial may keep us in the smoldering ruins for a while, but except for the wounded squatting beside you it impresses no one, and the future it ensures to the Party looks remarkably like our present situation.
Get outside and start learning what the twenty-first century looks and smells like. There are green things sprouting up amid the ashes.
KScurmudgeon
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
KScurmudgeon, wait about 5 years or so,
and then you'll see if this Obama guy is
really the person that he projects onto the
world stage.
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As for Canada'a getting out of Afghanistan, I approve. We should get out too. We have caused enough trouble in that beleagered country. And let us remember, no one can ever win a war in Afghanistan.
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"AndyPost, let's not assume the worst
here. Even if we had the F-22 in large numbers,
we would still need land bases near Iran from
which to launch attacks, and the Iraqis are kicking us out."
I think you mistake my comments to be saber rattling. I am very much against attacking Iran. Indeed, I think it would be just the wrong thing to do at this point.
However, militarily speaking, I think we do have the means to do it. I take your point about losing air bases in the region, but we do have 13 (I think) aircraft carriers available, not to mention a few score attack submarines and Aegis missile cruisers. Again, I'm not suggesting we use them to attack Iran (or anybody else for that matter). I've had enough war for a long, long time.
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guns.. (#27), you're right about the F-22; our (US) current attack aircraft is the F/A-18E/F (Super Hornet), on carriers.
But the real issue here is the idea of getting into a war on Iranian territory. It's ludicrous!
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34, AndyPost, I agree with you, we don't want to
get into a war with Iran if we can avoid it.
The entire Middle East would probably become
extremely destabilized, even more so than it is
now, and think that even the current Iranian
leadership wants to avoid war with us.
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35, Gary, I think that the possibility of that occurring
now is diminishing. Hopefully, the Iraqis will kick
us out soon, and the Iranians won't be our problem
any more.
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Chalmers A. Johnson writes that there are limits to empire and the American Empire has reached its limit. This is why Obama did not try to dissuade the Canadians about bringing their troops home. President Obama is intouch with his Generals. They have told him along with the Russians that the war in Afghanistan is not winable militarily.
The Neocons and The Party of NO would have the public believe otherwise, but they can save that for 2012. It is time for an adjustment now with Capitalism going down for the last gasp. The most dragonian of the rabbid capitalist seem the most anxious to bring it down. Continuing the War in Afghanistan will surely do this. They seem to forget what Bin Ladin planned all along: BRING THEM OUT AND BLEED THEM was his motto.
Bin Laden even insured this by using a trick from African American Folklore: Tales Of Brer Rabbit written down by Joel Chanler Harris. Late in the Election of 2004 Bin Laden sent out a message on the internet selection John Kerry as the better man in the race between him and George W. Bush. Quite naturally the Neoconservative Noise Machine made hay out of that subversive missive. Forgetting what is part, although a minor part of American Literature: Brer Rabbit, they fell for a trick that Brer Rabbit played on wiley Bre Fox.
Brer Rabbit begged Bre Fox: Please don't throw me in the brier patch, just eat me right now. Brer Fox being the neoconservative of his time wanted to make the "liberal" rabbit suffer, so he threw him in the briar patch. In the end the rabbit got the last laugh: I was born in this here briar patch he said as he escaped a ignomeanous death by running away.
Yes, African American Literature has a lot to teach those who disreagard the wisdom of Others.
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10. kilty - No, Canada is the usual first stop.
Low risk opportunity to check the tires and make sure the brakes work.
GW Bush broke with tradition because Rick Mercer made a fool of him on This Hour Has 22 Minutes while Bush Jr., was still a candidate.
If you Google "Poutine George Bush Rick Mercer Video" you can probably find a copy of the offending clip. It was very funny.
11. St. D: "Not too interested in the few things we still manufacture..."
Actually 76 % (I believe) of Canada's imports still come from the US. Canada buys a lot of American stuff (US $ 700m+ per day). It just happens that we sell even more.
Are we in this together? Well, Ontario makes more cars than Michigan ...
20. Guns.: 26 Swami had the same thought I did: That's uncomfortably close to what actually happened between May 10 and June 26, 1940.
In another context, too, France really was conquered without a shot. The inability of the French government to get its act together over the Saarland, over Spain, over the Anschluss, over the Sudetenland, at Munich, during the "phony war" ...
Yes, maybe France was lost a long time before May 10, 1940.
ref.: Collapse of the Third Republic, William Shirer. Good book, now out of print?
22. Andy
"Canada was not attacked ..."
More Canadians were killed on 9/11 than in any other terrorist attack (roughly 120?) except the Air India bombings.
Some of us mourn your losses, too. I find it very hard to look at those photos at the end of the Newshour. Young, bright children, with an entire future ahead of them, cut short. The grief of their parents must be inconsolable.
Yeah, I find it hard to look at those photos.
33. Marbles
On one level, I want to bring the troops home because the mission is such a shambles, and nobody really understands why we are there.
Canada has a very, very small military, (total size, all forces, about 82,000?, of which land forces are approx 35,000, total? these are guesses). Virtually every soldier in the army has been in and out of Afghanistan several times. The government deliberately chose to put our troops in a very dangerous place, because that's what you do if you're a stand-up kind of guy. That's what you do if you won your independence at Vimy, at Ypres, at Ortona, at Dieppe, and in Normandy. It's just what you do.
We aren't wimping out like the Germans, or the French, or the Italians, who are glad to send troops to Afghanistan so long as they don't have to go anywhere near live ammunition.
We have lost about 120 soldiers out of a deployed force that has never been much larger than 2400. Proportionately, this is a higher loss rate than any other Nato force deployed. The army is well trained but often rather poorly equipped as compared to our allies. E.g., they don't lack for courage or cunning, but they often lack helicopters.
When the army is so small, there is no anonymity. It is like a large extended family Everybody knows everybody, and each loss is all the more keenly felt.
Yet, on another level, I wish, somewhat perversely, that we could stay and succeed. We aren't a big, powerful country like the US. We don't have alterior motives. We aren't there as colonisers or conquerors. We're just there to try to make things, "better" in some sense. Generally, we try to be a force for good in the world, so that people can live better lives in peace.
Naively, I have difficulty understanding why the sincerity of our purpose and the dogged determination and kindness of our troops does not win the trust and aid of the local population. Somehow leaving without succeeding seems a betrayal of those who have fallen.
But we're paying a price, and the overpasses on the 401 are lined with Police, Firefighters, and everybody else every time one of our boys is brought home under the maple leaf. Its heart wrenching.
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Ref 39,
"I have difficulty understanding why the sincerity of our purpose and the dogged determination and kindness of our troops does not win the trust and aid of the local population."
I have great respect for the contributions made by Canada and other allies in Afghanistan, regardless of whether they are altruistic and well intended or in direct response to the dictum "you are either with us or against us" but I suspect the answer to the observation above is simply that most Afghans want to be left alone and wish to restore the sovereignty and traditions they lost, including those who find abhorrent and inconsistent with 21st century values.
Who gave us the right to intervene in the internal affairs of other nations, and change their culture, traditions, values, and form of government while we object vociferously at any semblance of external influence in our internal affairs?
Obviously, the Taleban was guilty of either collusion with the activities Al Qaeda was carrying out in Afghanistan before and after 9/11, or were simply too weak to oppose that organization. I understand why we removed them from power, but why do we have to remain there indefinitely? Do we honestly believe we can capture OBL and destroy an organization that exists because of the medieval convictions of so many people throughout the Islamic World or because of opposition to our presence in their lands and holy places?
IMO, if the goal is to capture or kill OBL I think we would have a better chance of achieving that goal using a few spooks to infiltrate Al Qaeda. Let's face it, the chances of a huge military force that can be detected hundreds of miles away capturing OBL are slim to none. As for Al Qaeda, it is going to take a lot more than a military presence to defeat what has become a cultural and religious movement. We need deeds that can be measured by everyone and, above all, we must show respect towards others instead of the arrogance and savagery of the past 8 years.
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ref #12
Stop giving the Arab nations another excuse.
The fact demonstrated by the racism of Abu Dahbi is that the majority of Arab nations lack the will to make peace.
Only when the leader of moselm nation realize that nations lead by Jews are equal to them and that terrorism is not excusable when done by moslem; will there be a chance for lasting mid east peace.
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41 lol gherkin
"that terrorism is not excusable when done by moslem"
but it is Ok when done by anyone else then?
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ref #42
Yes when Al Quada kills fellow Moslems it's wrong.
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#21
South,
The Typhoon has the capability to get through.
With lots of EW support.
Military Sam
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39, Interested.
"Yet, on another level, I wish, somewhat perversely, that we could stay and succeed. We aren't a big, powerful country like the US. We don't have alterior motives. We aren't there as colonisers or conquerors. We're just there to try to make things, "better" in some sense. Generally, we try to be a force for good in the world, so that people can live better lives in peace."
I think you are honestly misguided. There is nothing we can make "better" in Afghanistan. All we can do is kill more poor tribal people. There is no gain to be had, for them or for us. I don't even know why we are there. Does anyone know? Let us leave them alone to repair themselves, by themelves.
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"There is no gain to be had, for them or for us. I don't even know why we are there. Does anyone know?"
Are you forgetting 9/11? I think you are because otherwise you'd realize those guys are still alive and are taking part in combat operations against us.
If you think these guys wouldn't hit us with something truly spectacular (nuclear maybe) given half chance, then you must be forgetting 9/11.
We simply must destroy al Qaeda. (We just can't destroy Pakistan in the process.)
I think we could make peace with the Taleban eventually.
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Ref. 39
"They don't lack for courage or cunning, but they often lack helicopters."
Are you serious? I had no idea the Canadian military was short of materiel. Seems like we could loan you some. We got a lot of everything. $500 billion a year buys a lot of machinery.
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Ref. 39
"Yeah, I find it hard to look at those photos."
I try to look at each picture, and read the name, rank, age, and hometown and try to capture just a little bit of the reality of that last full measure of devotion, you know? The colonels hit me the hardest because they're all about my age, and from what I know about American military culture, I'm just about sure they have kids.
But the pictures go by so fast, and there are so many.
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Have you ever noticed that he is becoming more popular abroad and less popular at home? Let's talk about the home foreclosure deal for example....
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49. Aggie.
"Let's talk about the home foreclosure deal for example...."
Let's not. Why should we, who are prudent in our spending, bail out spendthrifts? What is the point or benefit of our prudence? And guess what. Those in foreclosure won't be paying taxes! Should I spend all I have, go on welfare, and wait for the bounty of the government (us, actually)? Plenty do that.
I am fed up with deadbeats! I am tired of supporting them. And I certainly don't feel sorry for them.
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"29. At 6:43pm on 20 Feb 2009, saintDominick wrote:
Ref 21, OldSouth
"They are taking delivery on an advanced Russian air-defence system that only our F-22 has a chance of overcoming."
Would you mind explaining why a defensive system in a country half way around the globe represents a concern or threat to our national security?"
Oh thats easy, the point was that if Iran was too pose a nuclear threat in that it was able to build nuclear weapons and apparently they are getting more and more closer to having the required amount of material to build one, we would not be able to deal with that threat.
saintDominick: Ah to be fair if it was that easy to get OBL by just infiltrating that group we would have done that by now, we have been attempting to do that for quite sometime. Like our intelligence community has been saying, ever since 9/11 they have become more and more difficult to infiltrate. They are not dumb, the fact that they have been able to survive this long has shown they are very smart. I don't believe the US plans on being their indefinately after it feels it has been able to accomplish its goals.
"Do we honestly believe we can capture OBL and destroy an organization that exists because of the medieval convictions of so many people throughout the Islamic World or because of opposition to our presence in their lands and holy places?"
We were able to do it with nazis in germany. It can be done especially those against to our prescene in their lands, not really present in their holy places. I think you are overstating AQ's popularity throughout the Islamic world, I don't believe their would be a single base left in Islamic countries if AQ popularity was that strong.
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Nolying,
required amount of material to build one,Gee! How many have we got?
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Obama's tactics may be to get the Canadian population on his side first and then get them to put pressure on the Canadian politicians to do what he, Obama, wants.
This could also work in the UK, continent of Europe and Israel.
Less likely to work in Iran and Pakistan where he will have to influence the leaders directly.
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Ref 51, Noliving
"We were able to do it with nazis in germany."
The difference between what transpired in WWII and what is happening now is that during the former we were fighting a conventional military force with a uniformed Army, Navy and air force; while the latter involves engaging guerrilla fighters that wear civilian clothes and mingle with the civilian population. Attempting to capture an individual using a large conventional army is a virtual impossibility.
Obviously, our chances of infiltrating Al Qaeda or any other Middle Eastern organization with "gringos" would not get us very far, but that objective could be accomplished using surrogates or our beloved Mossad friends.
Regarding the probability that Iran may develop a nuclear weapon, which I would not be surprised if they do, I think we should remember that we have over 12,000 nuclear warheads and thousands of delivery systems, and that Israel also has a substantial nuclear arsenal. Even the slightest attempt by Iran to use their newly acquired capability for aggressive purposes would result in the immediate annihilation of that country. The Iranian leadership may appear offensive and intractable to most of us, but they are neither dumb nor suicidal. I suspect their goal is to achieve parity in the most volatile region in the world.
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Ref 46, Andy
"Are you forgetting 9/11"
I think we all remember 9/11 and I honestly believe that everyone of us would do whatever it takes to prevent a reccurrence. The problem is that the strategy we have been following lacks cohesiveness and has proven to be ineffective.
Al Qaeda and its surrogates remain as dangerous as ever and have carried out devastating attacks in Spain, the UK, Jordan and other countries since 9/11 with relative impunity. Changing the the mindset of those who continue to finance Al Qaeda, and those that continue to join the organization, can not be achieved with military solutions.
We must infiltrate the organization to eliminate its leadership and, most importantly, we must address the root causes of their hatred to influence change. The fatwah against us was declared as a result of our presence near the Islamic Holy cities of Mecca and Medina, and was further exacerbated by our decision to invade and occupy Iraq and our unconditional financial and military aid to Israel.
Until those issues are resolved, it doesn't really matter how many troops we deploy in the ME and Asia Minor, terrorist organizations will continue to grow and enjoy an inexhaustible number of jihadists willing to die if that is what it takes to expel the "infidels" from their land.
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No, but we are continuing to treat symptoms, while such treatment continues to aggravate the cause/disease... I had hoped (and still do) that Obama's approach would be more oriented to examining deeper causes and considering ways to deal with them at a deeper level, but it's still early days.Every single bit of "collateral damage" breeds new recruits to terrorism
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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50, allmymarbles -
From what I hear, a lot of people can't pay their mortgages because they lost their jobs. How does this make them deadbeats? Those who haven't lost their jobs would still be paying taxes.
And then there's the issue of sky-rocketing interest rates on variable rate mortgages. The interest the banks pay on deposit accounts drops to practically nothing at the same time the rates on mortgages and credit cards increase arbitrarily. Why is it that whenever the Fed lowers the interest rates, the banks and mortgage companies don't pass this decrease on to their loan customers but only to their deposit customers? Instead they charge more and pay less. The finance companies win no matter what and everybody else loses.
Until the banks overreach in their greed and make it so that people simply cannot afford the usury interest rates anymore, and default. Which is what has happened.
It is greed that has destroyed our economy, not deadbeats.
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Re 53
"Obama's tactics may be to get the Canadian population on his side first and then get them to put pressure on the Canadian politicians to do what he, Obama, wants.
This could also work in the UK, continent of Europe and Israel."
I think you are reading too much into this. Visiting foreign countries, and particularly our neighbors and most important trading partners, is part of what our Presidents are expected to do.
Quite frankly, I think President Obama has enough on his plate right now to bother with nefarious plots to influence public opinion abroad, and when it comes to Israel I would say that dealing with Netanyahu's ultra right wing government is going to be a challenge that will require a lot more than photo ops and diplomatic platitudes.
The probability of an Israeli attack against Iran's nuclear facilities has increased exponentially, and the fallout from it is likely to become a major nightmare for the Obama administration.
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Bouncy Feline - Will you please stop changing your name! I am constantly tricked into thinking there are others out there with similar views, until I click and find myself in North Glen!
"collateral damage" I believe that to be absolutely accurate. I do not wish to be tested to discover what I am capable of doing, with my back to the wall, to protect my childrens' future. Docile? I don't think so!
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"Now evry gambler knows that the secret to survivin
Is knowin what to throw away and knowing what to keep.
cause evry hands a winner and evry hands a loser,
And the best that you can hope for is to die in your sleep."
From Kenny Rogers "The Gambler."
One thing you can be sure of is that President Obama will not bang his shoe on the table. He's not Nikita Khrushchev.
I think President Obama will surprise a lot of people, especially those who mistook him for a European or a Europhile. Unlike President Bush, he is not beholden to trans national corporations whose interests often run contrary to America's. His interests coincide with those of American workers, American taxpayers, American citizens. I think he is going to deliver a message that the US will cooperate on a 50-50 basis but that if other countries will not meet the US halfway, they will no longer get a free ride. If Europe, Canada, and the rest of the world won't help win the war on terror in Afghanistan and Pakistan then it will be lost and we will all suffer the consequences. Europe is much closer and easier a target for Moslem terrorists than the US is. If NAFTA doesn't provide advantages to the US then there won't be a NAFTA anymore. The US will not be locked in forever to deals which it feels treat it unfairly to the advantage of others. All the fine words Secretary of State Clinton is telling the Chinese right now won't add up to a row of beans if they don't do their fair share to open their markets to American goods and services, cut their carbon dioxide emissions too. Everyone is getting one more chance. But it is only a chance, not a guarantee and the US will not fall on its sword for anyone. That's not a Republican or Democratic perspective, it's and American perspective.
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ref 357
I usually don't agree with Marbles on anything.
But I may have a similar concern:
In Boston there is a notroious case of a woman who bought a three family home she could not afford. She is employed as a realtor.
When she could not pay she stopped and squatted. One of these noxious community groups sided with her. They don't seem to care she wasn't paying her bills.
Why should people like this woman be bailed out by the rest of us?
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Canada is doing more than its fair share in Afghanistan. We are only 33m people, our population is so small and yet we have lost well over 100 fine young Canadians to this endeavour. We understand the consequences which is why we are involved.
"Obama's tactics may be to get the Canadian population on his side first and then get them to put pressure on the Canadian politicians to do what he, Obama, wants."
Canadians on a whole are fairly well educated, informed and politically involved. We are able to make our own decisions. If we believe that what Obama wants from us is the right thing to do, we will do it. Flip side, after eight years of Bush we are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but not if it does not work in our best interests.
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60, MA II,
In 2008, the European Contribution in Afghanistan was already 50%. However, most of the soldiers were not allowed to fight by their own government. An interesting article from january 2008 (so maybe posted earlier)
states:
"However, the effectiveness of European troops has been severely reduced by restrictions imposed by most national governments. Sixty such national restrictions, or "caveats", exist,
limiting the ability of the ISAF commander to deploy and allocate forces. Caveats include a prohibition on moving forces to a certain area, requirements for lengthy consultations with national capitals before tactical decisions can be made, and restrictions on certain types of activities, for example, riot control."
The link:
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
About employment, the Pushtan, narcotics, surrounding countries and their policies. Although it's an old article, it is still a good read.
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"... he wants time."
Wall Street has already declared that Obamarama is already economically perished.
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Ref 64, Zootmac
"Wall Street has already declared that Obamarama is already economically perished."
Yes, a recovery plan with tax breaks for the middle class, infrastructure spending, and using what is left of the TARP money to help average Americans keep their homes is bound to ruffle some feathers in Wall Street where they were probably awaiting another massive financial bailout with no strings attached.
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Ref 61, Magic
"In Boston there is a notroious case of a woman who bought a three family home she could not afford. She is employed as a realtor."
This is eerily reminiscent of President Reagan's story about the Welfare queen that drove a Cadillac to collect her benefits.
IMO, what we need to ask ourselves is not how the mortgage bailout is going to help each of us individually, but what is it going to do for our country at a national level. Even if we ignore the impact of this crisis on our society - and our fellow Americans - should we allow our financial institutions to go bankrupt? Do you prefer nationalization or simply putting our money under our mattresses? Personally, if I have to choose between giving another gift to the banks and helping people keep their houses, which by default would help the banks, I opt for the latter.
There is always a probability that unscrupulous people will benefit from our public programs - or anything else for that matter - but we would be better off as a nation and as individuals if we worked collectively to help all segments of our society achieve basic goals such as keeping their houses, jobs, and giving their children a good education.
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"Wall Street has already declared that Obamarama is already economically perished."
Well, I may be turning into a conspiracy theory nut case, but I suddenly find myself wondering if there isn't some kind of manipulation of the stock market (stock dumping?) in order to scare the general public and make everyone think there is no confidence in the stimulus plan. Or in Obama at all. It just seems odd to me that every time he does anything the market falls, while the polls are showing people mostly approve of him. It's kind of eerie.
"Wall Street" has shown itself to be incompetent, immoral, and corrupt, so I think perhaps the rest of us should ignore what it supposedly declares.
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bere, Ms. Marbles, you're both describing different
forms of greed. The banks may appear to be
the big winners, but in fact, they are really broke,
because they were lending out something like
13 times deposits.
In fact, they are all deadbeats, and we're going
to wind up paying for them for many years.
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The most powerful person in the world (and God help us all if it was only one) has the most responsibility to negotiate peace with every other most powerful person in the world. We really do not need 'one upmanship on that level. Why?
Because this planet we ALL live on truly cannot withstand another escalating war with the present arsenal and still remain in one piece in the Universe with anyone on any of it.
Better start coming up with some creative better ideas for recycling the huge nuclear bombs into something more useful then -
when diffused. Unless they are needed to ward off a monster meteor that would demolish the lot of us. That is MASS - Mutual Assured Secure Survival - of mankind.
A new type of housing with spiral staircases and double glazed portholes with a wind generator on top?
New Submarine Prisons with those who will be released saying " I'll never do it again, honest".
Any more ideas on the home front bloggers hoping for some kind of better future?
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All of this hostility directed towards Wall Street
is entirely justified, but we need people there.
Maybe not the same ones, though...
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#22
Are you suggesting the US was attacked by Afghanistan?
Ridiculous.
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69, BettyHur, I like your housing idea.
Perhaps now that so many on Wall Street
are unemployed, they can do something useful
like invent perpetual motion machines to
act as energy sources.
Beware of any which appear to by pyramid-shaped,
though.
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Ref 67, Bere
"Wall Street" has shown itself to be incompetent, immoral, and corrupt, so I think perhaps the rest of us should ignore what it supposedly declares"
I had similar thoughts about the sudden drops in the stock market and would not be surprised if the big boys are, indeed, trying to influence our opinion and the President's agenda.
Unfortunately, we can not ignore Wall Street. We need banks and other financial institutions but, like Magic said, those institutions should be managed by competent and honest executives instead of the morons that helped create the crises we are facing.
I am afraid we will have to, once again, bail them out, but we must clean house before they get a dime and we must put in place regulation that minimize the chances of a recurrence.
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timewaitsfornoman #62
If Canada is doing its fair share in Afghanistan, why is it pullling out? The war is far from over. In fact we are losing. Why isn't it demanding that its NATO partners like Germany, Italy, and all of the other deadbeats send troops in to do some of the fighting too? There comes a time for a pretense of niceness to end. Go ahead, cut and run. That's what I always expected anyway. At least Canada and the UK showed up. That's more than I can say for most of NATO. I see no reason why the US shouldn't just quit NATO. What benefit is it to America to be in it? Why should America continue to spend so much money to defend its fair weather friends who are really no friends at all?
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ref #66
But I see alot of people in similar situations to the one described.
You and David Brooks think she shhould get rewarded as part of the package, I don't.
Let their be support for who had reasonable mortages.
Likewise let the auto companies have a controlled bankrupcy, there would still be goverment support but would breeak the legacies.
Which would be bad for the unions but great for the country.
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57, bere.
"It is greed that has destroyed our economy, not deadbeats."
It is greed on both ends that destroyed our economy - the lenders and the spendthrift buyers. The poor are subject to the same vices as everyone else. And by the way, the foreclosures preceded the loss of jobs. In fact, it was the foreclosures, among other factors, that directly caused them.
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75 MarcusAureliusII
Canada is not pulling out until 2011. A lot can and hopefully will happen in two years. The deadline was imposed to win the support of the Canadian people. We understood we had a responsibility but were not willing to send a continuous supply of some of our finest young people to be blown to pieces by roadside bombs. We are in Kandahar one of the most dangerous areas of Afghanistan.
I also understand we will not be completely withdrawing but will stay on in some other capacity.
Canada has nothing to be ashamed of where Afghanistan is concerned.
I have no idea what Canada is doing as regards to our NATO allies. Would like to think we are encouraging them to participate. But what is Canada to do if they refuse? Stop sending them wheat?
We are not fair weather friends to the United States. Where did all the planes on their way to America, that were too far to turn back, land on 911? I'm sure you know the answer. If that is not an example of "being there" for your friends, I do not know where to find another.
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68, guns.
"In fact, they are all deadbeats (banks and mortgagees), and we're going to wind up paying for them for many years."
My point exactly.
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68, guns, further to above.
And it is us, the non-deadbeats in the middle, who will be doing the bailing.
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Ref 76, Magic
I do not advocate rewarding irresponsibility or greed. Quite the opposite, I think we should make those who acted irresponsibly or fraudulently pay the consequences for their actions. I do, however, believe that we should do something to help the overwhelming majority of people whose mortgages are being foreclosed because of inability to make monthly payments as a result of job losses or unexpected catastrophic expenses - e.g. medical emergencies.
I live in a small city in Florida where about half the population are retirees from the Northeast and other parts of the USA. Many of us paid cash for our houses, others have small mortgages, but very few are having problems meeting their financial obligations. Unfortunately, that is not the case for the main industry in this city until two years ago: construction.
Hundreds of construction workers have been laid off, and many in retail and the service sector have also been affected by the economic downturn. It is them, who often have small children to support, who are having trouble making their mortgage payments, paying their utility bills, and supporting their families.
Most of the houses foreclosed in the city where I live are modest dwellings, not the mansions that people love to highlight to support their opposition to President Obama's plan.
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To#39 Interestedforeignor
The last parts of your post got to my heart because I know that I have focused on my own personal loss probably more than I should have done. There are so many mothers grieving for their lost children, not just here and in Canada but in so many other places.
When will we ever learn that war is not healthy for children and other living things?
Peace, friend and thank you for the reminder.
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76. At 10:26pm on 21 Feb 2009, MagicKirin
Likewise let the auto companies have a controlled bankrupcy, there would still be goverment support but would breeak the legacies.
Which would be bad for the unions but great for the country.
Because the unions are made up of little green men from outer space and not US citizens with families like everyone else in the country.
And there are those who actually claim the US is not class ridden.
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60. At 3:28pm on 21 Feb 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"One thing you can be sure of is that President Obama will not bang his shoe on the table. He's not Nikita Khrushchev."
Astonishing insight. He is not Indira Ghandi or Madonna either.
"I think President Obama will surprise a lot of people, especially those who mistook him for a European or a Europhile. "
Well no one mistook him him for Kenny Rogers or Nikita Kruschev, like you did.
" If Europe, Canada, and the rest of the world won't help win the war on terror in Afghanistan and Pakistan then it will be lost and we will all suffer the consequences"
Since it doesn't exist it is hardly likely to be lost.
"Europe is much closer and easier a target for Moslem terrorists than the US is. If NAFTA doesn't provide advantages to the US then there won't be a NAFTA anymore. The US will not be locked in forever to deals which it feels treat it unfairly to the advantage of others. All the fine words Secretary of State Clinton is telling the Chinese right now won't add up to a row of beans if they don't do their fair share to open their markets to American goods and services, cut their carbon dioxide emissions too. Everyone is getting one more chance. But it is only a chance, not a guarantee and the US will not fall on its sword for anyone. That's not a Republican or Democratic perspective, it's and American perspective."
How shrill. The failure of the US is getting to you isn't it. Must be a horrible feeling, defeat in war, collapsing economy.
Each week we hear how another yank has run rings around the so-called regulators .
Better accept that the US is never going to be the power it was in 1950. Those days are over.
Read David Cannadine - "Nostalgia is like another activity, too much makes you blind."
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78, timewaits -
Wasn't it the Canadian Embassy in Tehran that took in and hid a number of American diplomats and other embassy employees when the American Embassy was taken over? I seem to recall that the Canadians (if it was them) cared for these people in secret for months and then somehow spirited them out of Iran. Am I wrong about this?
allmymarbles -
Speaking of deadbeats, I live in a 3-flat house and my downstairs neighbor apparently does not pay her bills, and has an unlisted phone number. The collection agencies do some kind of address search for phone numbers and come up with mine for this street address, then call my number looking for her. I am really sick of this. I thought it was possible via the internet to find even unlisted numbers these days. Someone told me they deliberately call a deadbeat's neighbors to try to embarrass them (the deadbeats) but this woman and I are not speaking terms so she doesn't even know I am getting her collections calls. Now that there are tenants on the first floor, maybe they'll also get the calls and will say something to her as she has not yet managed to alienate them.
So I am not a blanket supporter of deadbeats. I just don't think all the people who are in trouble these days are deadbeats.
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#82 et als, I agree. But it is not just greed on all sides. I am the first to say that someone who craves a bigger, fancier house than they can afford may have misplaced priorities. But truly look at the banks and government...something needs to be straightened out.
I believe in 2005 the US bankruptcy code was changed to make a home mortgage 'bankruptcy remote' - thanks to bank lobbiests, who then took this news to the securities rating agencies as though somehow home mortgage debt backed securities were now worth more, and more marketable, and supported three tiers of investment insurance. Bah - it is amoral to trade home or student loan consumer debt on the market just because it is government backed....sick! The new proposal undoes this 2005 change in the code...hopefully. These consumer debts should also be taken off the trading floor or be highly regulated.
Because the loans are traded on the market the banks retain the servicing and have turned loan servicing into a profit center, taking their cut FIRST, and at up to treble market price. A borrower can call a bank twenty times in two weeks, get no-one's last name, twenty different answers in five states, and be nowhere apart from tears-vale at the end. The charge, added to the balance, will be about $5,000 in fees, plus interest at 18% for the privilege of going into default instead of working out a payment plan.
In the bailout proposal the original loan balance maybe can stand - that would be fair since it was borrowed...but as for those who invested at risk in interest and profit centers and debt backed securities....they can take a hair cut. I don't think the proposal should toss them a penny (which currently it does).
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#74 and 64 - Funny I listened to Hannity on the radio Friday and he spoke along the line of look what has happened to stocks since Obama took office. One month of a drop...after all that went before-it's just silly. The irresponsibility of the market investors, brokers, offerors, regulatory agencies 'n all is mind-boggling. Not just the Madoff and Stanford scams, but the debt-backed and auction rate bond markets...these children have no idea what they are marketing or buying or selling - it's baseball cards to them as long as they get a commission, or cut, or fee.
I think the drop in the market indicates only a lack of confidence in a bunch of idiots...but I bet they are still getting fees and commissions - first in line.
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85 bere54
"Canadian Embassy in Tehran"
Allmymarbles might know more of the story than I do but...
It is a remarkable story. When the Embassy was stormed six Americans were not in the building so eluded capture. They appealed for sanctuary at the Canadian Embassy and were not turned away. Ken Taylor our Ambassador to Iran hide them for months, teaching them how to "act" Canadian. The Canadian Government issued them passports. Obviously extraordinary. A reporter from the Montreal newspaper LaPresse was the first to realize not all Embassy employees were accounted for and asked for clarification. He was sworn to secrecy, which he honoured. They left the country masquerading as Canadians eh?
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88, timewaits -
"They appealed for sanctuary at the Canadian Embassy and were not turned away. Ken Taylor our Ambassador to Iran hide them for months, teaching them how to "act" Canadian."
Did they learn to say "pro-cess" and "aboot" as well as "eh"?
I've never forgotten about that business because I thought it was so cool. And as for whoever above called the Canadians "fair weather friends" - well, what they did in Tehran was very dangerous and could have rebounded on all those in the Canadian Embassy, yet they did not hesitate to help Americans in danger.
I was very annoyed that this incident was not resurrected in the media when so many Americans were criticizing Canada for not joining in the Iraq fiasco.
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Simple simon
The war on terror is real. 9-11 was real. The Taleban and al Qaeda are real. Amadinejad and the Ayatollahs are real as is their effort to manufacture atom bombs and use them. You can stick your head in the mud, turn tail and run, but it does't change what goes on in the world. They aren't out to get Canada in particular, they'd prefer striking the US.
For your information, the United States has not won a war in 64 years. It has fought to defeat or a draw every single time with the possible exception of Kosovo. Even that is not certain. The entire world is bankrupt. Even though Canada's government was responsible, and I acknowledge far more responsible than many others including The USA's, it will not escape the economic tsunami drowning the financial world. I wouldn't sell America short just yet. It has survived worse, much worse and come out the better and stronger in the aftermath.
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timewaits, you'll have to teach me how to "act Canadian."
I think I've picked up a few tidbits. When ambling
up to a bar, instead of saying, "I'll have a Sierra Nevada,"
I'll say something like: "Pass me a Molson's,
you hoser."
And, when some stranger asks me the time,
I'll say something like: "It's aboot time for a beer, eh?"
If I can't think of anything to say, I'll practice my
French (which is very poor), and if someone says that
they can't understand my accent, I'll tell them
that, after all, I am French.
How am I doing?
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88, timewaits
"Canadian Embassy in Tehran"
This was a truly wonderful act of friendship, and a great joke. It all happened rather quickly. It was not a matter of months and I think 11 (?) Americans were involved. But it was the act that was important, not the details. We cheered you, Canada.
What was particularly curious was that it the same sort of trickery the Iranians themselves delight in. Around the same time, the prison in Tehran was stormed by revolutionaries to free the Shah's political prisoners. The whole business was a fake. The "revolutionaries" were from the Shah's side and the intent was to free the new regime's Public Enemy No. 1. That was also successful.
Even during a revolution there are bright and funny moments. The Iranians (and old-timey ex-pats) admired and enjoyed both exploits, no matter where they stood politically. I have more stories like this that perhaps I will share.
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88, timewaits.
Here is another one.
It was in the midst of the revolution and our family was sitting down to dinner, when a fellow, long-term American resident in Tehran called us. He said that a member of our government had just escaped being captured in his home by armed revolutionaries. He was saved by his "kolfat," a female servant, who hid him in an airshaft. Everyone knew that would be back and our friend asked us for ideas of what to do. We said we would talk it over and get back to him.
I came up with the idea of getting some friendly revolutionaries, armed to the teeth, to rescue him. As I said in a previous comment, Iranians love a joke. These people would indeed be revolutionaries, but friendship and trickery can be more important. We were about to make the call when our friend beat us to it. He said he got members of the Tudeh Party (an extremist left-wing group) to "capture" the official and free him.
More to come.
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#60
Golly gee Marcus,
Wouldn't it be terrible for China if we refused to let them fund our debt any more?
Your perspective, by the way, isn;t an American perspective. It's a New Jersey Trailer Park perspective. Nothing wrong with that, let's just make sure we categorize it for what it is.
Supportive Sam
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#92
Guns,
Pretty good, far as I can tell. You have to make fart jokes as well, a la Terrence and Phillip.
South Park Sam
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92 gunsandreligion
First of all you will have to drop your Americanisms, and learn to pronounce words as Canadians do. I do not know where Canadians saying "aboot" comes from. We say a bout' as in a bout of illness. The last letter of the alphabet is Zed and words like honour, neighbour, etc. have a "u." I do not know if this is universal in the States but we do not say "It's ten of five," but rather "ten to five."
I don't know that anyone says "you hoser," certainly not in Quebec. That comes from The Great White North with Bob and Doug Mackenzie (Rick Moranis and Dave Thomas). Maybe they do in other parts of the country. Perhaps chronophobe would know.
You would have to know a far amount about the Royal Family and that we do not have Episcopalian Churches (that would be a dead give away) ours are Anglican. The CBC and hockey.......
We do say "eh" a lot! We have loonies and toonies and toques and two-fours (a case of 24 beers).
Of course as I have said numerous times I live in Quebec so perhaps some things are different in other Provinces.
This is a good article and I agree with just about everything she says.
My son went to a basketball camp in NYC. I called and left a voice message with the co-ordinator. He asked my son, "Is your mother British?"
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88, timewaits.
You've got me going.
We are still in the revolution. One night we heard rapid gunfire followed by screams. More gunfire and more screams. We wondered where it was coming from since we hadn't heard of any battles. (Are we cool, or what?) The next night the same scenario. But we began to notice there was a cadence to the gunfire and screams. It was a tape! Everyone must have caught on because Tehranis were running all over town to buy it.
Another screwballery. I heard a ruckus outside one afternoon, and looked out my front window to see what was happening. Surging down the street was a small mob of men, some splotched with blood. Then I noticed a man with red powder in his hand reach down into the joob (a small stream of water used for irrigation that borders the roads) to wet it. He then smeared the dye artfully and started yelling along with everyone else.
Who said revolutions can't be fun....
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allmymarbles
That is a very good story. Of course we focus on the "revolutionaries" and often forget that the majority are average, everyday, sane people just trying to get on with their lives. Saving Diplomats is a side-line only to be used in extreme circumstances!!
I met a couple whose common language was English. She was Spanish with a British accent, he Iranian with an obvious American accent. "Where did you learn your English?" She had been educated in England and he had hung around the Air Force Base - I think there were a lot of Texans there!!
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99, timewaits.
I am saving the best for last, something I was involved in personally. I will get to it tomorrow. But for now here is a brief tale.
An American army officer and his family lived about a block away from us. Some dehati revolutionaries heard about him and decided to attack. (Dehati are villagers. They came to Tehran to join the excitement and had probably never held a gun in their lives.) The army officer came out on his balcony armed with a gun. The revolutionaries called their superior, said the American was going to shoot them, and asked what they should do. Their leader asked if they were crazy. He said that the American was quite rightly defending his family and they should go way and leave him alone.
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99, timewaits.
"Saving Diplomats is a side-line only to be used in extreme circumstances!! "
They did it for the fun of it and because a friend asked them to. I don't think they cared about the American official at all.
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YOU MUST READ THIS!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090222/pl_nm/us_obama_5
A while back, I wrote that if one wanted to boost the economy as a whole, you had to get money in the pockets of the lower classes because they'd actually spend it, unlike giving dough to the richest sector who, most likely, would spend on luxury items or save it (these don't help the economy at large like the basic necessities do).
Looks like Obama is doing EXACTLY what I had recommended earlier! Check out what he intends to do with the USA national deficit and how he intends to reduce it!
I am SO stoked!
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60, MA II,
in 2007 half of the deployment came from Europe already, but...
From an article on the internet
(AFGHANISTAN: EUROPE’S FORGOTTEN WAR, By Daniel Korski)
"It is difficult to gauge the exact size of the deployability gap – the difference between what European countries have deployed and what they could deploy. But Europe’s military contribution in Afghanistan can be divided into three groups:
• The Netherlands and the United Kingdom, followed by Bulgaria, the Czech Republic,
Denmark Estonia, Germany, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, and Romania. These
countries contribute significant troops either in absolute terms or as a proportion of their national capability. Latvia has deployed 97 soldiers to ISAF. With a military of 5,864, this represents 1.6% of the country’s deployable capability. To match this, France would have to deploy 4,144 troops – more than four times its current ISAF contribution.
• Belgium, Hungary, Luxembourg, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, and Sweden have made
significant contributions but could do better. Sweden, for example, has only deployed 0.7% of its total military.
• Austria, Finland, France, Greece, Ireland, and Portugal have made minimal
deployments well below their capabilities. Finland has deployed only 85 soldiers to
ISAF out of a total strength of 34,700. Austria, perhaps the greatest laggard, has
deployed a mere 3 soldiers, while Luxembourg only 9.
However, the effectiveness of European troops has been severely reduced by restrictions imposed by most national governments. Sixty such national restrictions, or "caveats", exist, limiting the ability of the ISAF commander to deploy and allocate forces. Caveats include a
prohibition on moving forces to a certain area, requirements for lengthy consultations with national capitals before tactical decisions can be made, and restrictions on certain types of activities, for example, riot control."
Europe should do better. With only a few European countries at the front, we fall short of the term allies.
However, if NATO wants to win this war it has to get the people organized in such a way that they can hold the Taleban at bay themselves.
(The main reason why Bagdad became less violent). To win the heart of the people is something we probably will not accomplish even in decades.
Google it, despite its age it's an interesting article on many factors of importance concerning the Afghanistan war.
It seems I broke a bloglaw by putting a direct link to the document (#63). Sorry for that, mods.
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Marbles: Thank you so much for all of your posts on this string.
I made a long reply to 45 at 72, but for the first time ever one of my posts has been sent to the moderators.
Last Fall the site stopped accepting my posts completely for a period of time. Not sure why. But none of them was ever sent to the moderators. At the time I resolved not to make any further posts, but eventually changed my mind.
I will try to post a paraphrasing of the response, below, and see it it is moderated again.
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72 may have been moderated because it touches on the subject of the level of probity of public officials in the Afghan government and on widespread speculation with respect to the Taliban and with respect to the Pakistani ISI. These are issues that have bedeviled our efforts in Kandahar.
I will try to paraphrase.
Canada went to Afghanistan seven years ago in the wake of 9/11 where over 100 Canadians were killed. Rooting out bin Laden, and by implication his protectors and hosts in the Taliban seemed a good idea at the time.
The problem was, and is, that when we arrived the reality on the ground turned out to be anything but simple. It is sometimes, indeed often, difficult to tell the good guys from the bad guys, particularly when you wonder if things change after dark.
Canada has not inflicted many civilian casualties because we recognize that air strikes often kill more civilians than bad guys so we avoid calling in air support unless our troops are in really imminent danger. Further, we don't have our own air support, so our ability to call it in isn't what it might be, anyhow.
There was an air strike that we didn't call in, that killed a bunch of our soldiers. That incident became a very sore point between the US and Canadian governments. I made a comment about the handling of this case, and about one of the US pilots in particular, to which the moderators may possibly have objected. Perhaps use of the words "yahoo" and "boneheaded" was not sufficiently diplomatic.
We have lost a number of troops to roadside bombs because for quite a while we simply didn't have any of our own helicopters in Afghanistan, and had to borrow from our good and loyal friends the British and the Dutch. But their air transport was also in short supply.
I also made a comment about not even bothering to ask to borrow helicopters from some other Nato countries, a comment to which the moderators may possibly have taken objection since it might possibly have been interpreted as suggesting at least a degreee of fecklessness on the part of a number of prominent European allies. For a long time we used very light vehicles, and foot patrols, for work in the narrow laneways of the various villages. There were a number of soldiers killed in these duties.
I made a comment about the lack of sufficient forces to hold the territory taken by our troops, which meant that we kept retaking the same villages and orchards over and over. That comment mentioned the brave and rugged fighters of the Afghan army, and also the Afghan Police.
I also commented on a jail break in Kandahar that wiped out six months' effort to round up trouble-makers, and on the possible foreknowledge of, and participation in, those events by some people. Aspects of those comments touching on the Afghan Police and prison service may not have been entirely appreciated by the moderators, but did reflect an ongoing problem our troops have had.
I made a comment with respect to the inability to chase the Taliban across the borders of neighbouring friendly countries. Again, this comment may not have been appreciated by the moderators. The commentary included a blanket characterization of a particular problem that included the words "a bunch of lying hounds" that may perhaps have been considered offensive by the moderators.
I made a comment with respect to the drug trade and the involvement in that trade of the Taliban, and others, and the ethical choices our troops face in either turning a blind eye to it, and effectively becoming complicit in it, or of opposing it and losing all support among the local population because to destroy the drug trade in certain areas is to destroy the local economy. It is possible the moderators may have considered those comments offensive.
Finally, after enumerating this long list of problems, in what I had thought was an humorous, and yet pithy manner, I concluded roughly as follows:
... and so you wish that we could just get out of there, and be done with it.
But then you think of the young schoolgirls who were splashed in the face with acid, merely because somebody believes they shouldn't be allowed to go to school. I believe that the taliban claimed "credit" for this act. You think about how you would feel if any of these girls were your own daughter. And you wonder, if we left, if that is all those girls would ever face for the rest of their lives.
... and you despair, because it seems as if despite all the good will and all the good intentions in the world, and our belief in our national self-characterisation of ourselves as people who, like the Scandinavians, try to act for good in the world, simply doesn't matter a hoot, and this problem just can't be solved.
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105 Interestedforeigner
"in what I had thought was an humorous, and yet pithy manner, I concluded roughly as follows:"
I'm sorry to have missed that.
I am reminded of a story I heard from a Vet who took part in the D Day invasion. The tanks entered a French town but the streets were deserted as they did not realize they were Canadian troops. He spoke no French, other than one sentence he knew from watching the Habs play hockey, "Les Canadiens sont la!" which he shouted out. The street filled with jubilant people!
If only it was that easy in Afghanistan. I hope also to see the woman take off those burquas!!
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102, Jeebers76,
If it's acknowledged Monday, I will be surprised at Obama's swift action. A brave move, or a rash one? I guess the rich will start looking for their financial Mozes minutes later.
Maybe something different would stir up less emotion: What if the multimillionaires were not given a tax raise, but instead had to lend the same amount (or even more) to construction/ green energy companies, with a small interest?
On Wall Street:
Get rid of the Hedge Funds. Every time I try to understand their ways of doing business or the motivation of the guys who work in it, I get a headache. Far too complex to regulate. I wonder why private/small investors are not allowed to participate.
Reeks to me like an old boys stock-market. Just an afterthought: is it too far-fetched to think that some powerful enemies of the Democrats or the USA as a whole use the volatile character of these funds as a political weapon...?
69, BettyHur,
I'm not certain what you want to say, but the idea of a better future is something that most bloggers share, so
(Others can do better, but let me try:)
Banks will be busy to save their skins for months, if not years. What about multinationals? Is it possible to set up a construction in which they lend money to starting (and promising) businesses?
Most western countries have a separation between Church and State. Maybe it's time to do the same between Church and the financial world. I think religion should restrict its influence to the heart and mind only.
Forget asteroids, focus on comets. They're really big, quick and appear out of the black. I'm not going to place my bets on a 2012 collision, but when (not if) such a collision takes place, we don't need to concern ourselves about treasury bonds or human rights any longer. In this scenario, we need a bigger bang than a bunch of nukes can produce to save humanity.
The good news: the chance of an impact at our lifetime is one in a million. The bad news: in Pompeii they thought the same about vulcanism. We're always late in solving this kind of problem.
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#105, it's a big mess, isn't it?
Unfortunately, and I know that Ms. Marbles
will probably disagree with me, someone is
going to have to go into tribal areas in Pakistan
and wipe out their bases. If they are receiving
the hospitality of the local tribes, then those tribes
will have to be persuaded by force of arms to
distance themselves from the Taliban.
Many innocent lives will be lost. It's too bad
that it will turn out this way, but it always does.
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I'm in agreement with George Soros (on bloomberg.com) when he said that the current economic crisis has its roots in the financial deregulation of the 1980s and marks the end of a free-market model that has since dominated capitalist countries.
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Many Americans maybe a little surprised at the lack of patriotism of us British, not many union Jacks outside our homes(not any infact), compared to the many stars and stripes in the US.No holding our hands over our heart at the National Anthem....Our politians do not get our automatic devotion and respect, most of us don't trust them..
We do love our country...but not blindly...
My own take is,maybe because of the senseless sacrifice of all those young lads in WW1,being sent over the the top into a hail of machine gun fire and barbed wire, time after time after time...
'Your Country Needs You', send your loved husband and sons to their duty and all you get back is a buff colour telegram..' I regret to inform you that ...... is missing in action, believed killed'............that was the end of their interest in them..and you...
The US has been, without question, the leader in the free world....I hope the stratagy in Afghanistan is a correct one...
the steady loss of life, of both service men and women,will be in vain if 'Hey Presto', a settlement was to be found and implemented that could have been negotiated from day 1..
Perhaps the germans and the french know the old ways fill grave yards and Nothing else..
One hell-fire missiles' worth of food and aid will change atitudes far more than it's destructive effect...
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57 Bere agreed the greed is the factor.
Greed greed greed.
Variable rate interests rising so much to make quick profits was a crime . is a crime.
I wish people would stop trying to blame this mess on the poorest people.
Those conned into believing the American dream by the positive thinking "better" classes of the states who to be honest were not about to advise that the bubble would burst because they were in it.
Sad greedy people who were rich and probably will end up just as well off brought this mess not the poor.
(a look at the same mentality)
Those same that said "all change your TV sets "because they want extra cable channels and more "security" channels.They who have want more sports options.
meanwhile broke old grammy can't get her 3 channels over the air anymore can't get a converter box because those with grabbed.
All "advances are for the rich especially in this nation.
Viva la revolution.
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jeebers lets hope he does finally start taxing the over paid twerps that are at the moment hiding their money.
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108. Guns. It's an awful mess, for sure.
As for cleaning out the tribal areas, I don't think it can be done, and I'm not sure it would be all that wise even to try.
Not even the British army, which I would say is the finest, highest quality small army in the world, would be able to do it.
The Americans would rely far too heavily on stand-off and unmanned technologies, so the civilian death toll would be prohibitive, and we would have two more generations of people hating us.
No, I'm pretty sure that's not the answer, or maybe not directly.
But maybe there is another way to skin this cat.
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103, Dutchange:
You are making a fundamental mistake. NATO was not founded as, and is not now, simply another division of the US army.
It is entirely up to each member nation as to where it deploys its armed forces, and these deployments are agreed through democratic consultation and negotiation.
(Heard of that, have we?)
Percentages, degrees of willingness to commit troops and all that are irrelevant.
What individual nations can persuade their voting population to accept, however, is not. (It's called democracy . . .perhaps we have heard of that too?)
Many NATO members are occupied in peace-keeping around the world; perhaps people ought to take that into account, too.
And, to put it bluntly, aren't you Americans big enough to fight your own wars?
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105, interested.
So why is anyone in Afghanistan? What are we doing there? What are we supposed to accomplish? It was us (and the Russians) who destroyed their government and laid the groundwork for rival factions. We did the same thing in Iraq. We should get out and let the Afghans solve the problems we created.
As for throwing acid in girls' faces, that was a one-off and not part of Afghan custom. We sometimes get a nut who stands in a tower and shoots people on the ground at random. Should Afghanistan invade us and put things right?
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Since the matter of Afghanistan has been raised, I'd like to throw this article from Time into the mix. The British and the Russians never succeeded there, so why should America do so now? The French pulled out of Indochina and Americans eventually followed suit having lost 58,000 fighting men and sustained countless gross injuries. What makes anyone so sure that this type of situation is not about to be repeated?
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106, timewaits.
"If only it was that easy in Afghanistan. I hope also to see the woman take off those burquas!!"
Since when are their customs our business? Maybe the Afghans would like to see us get rid of pornography and face hardware. Maybe they would like to see Orthodox Jewish women stop shaving their heads and make homosexuality a crime.
Looked at it that way we are on pretty weak ground.
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110, ukwales -
I have never associated flag-flying and intoned allegiances and anthem-singing with patriotism and love of country and it never occurred to me that the British are in any way unpatriotic. I have never flown an American flag (or any other) and not only do I not say the pledge of allegiance, I do not stand up for it, as all that sort of thing seems creepy to me. Nor do I rise for or sing the anthem.
At the beginning of Town Meeting here in Vermont, someone walks out with a flag and all rise and do a group pledge. Except for me. It says much for Vermont that no one appears to notice this and no one accuses me of being anti-American. I know others who do not say the pledge but still rise for it so as not to attract notice.
The flag-waving, and USA chanting, and "These Colors Don't Run" bumper stickers are a creepy form of nationalism which have nothing to do with love of country but strike me as more of a dislike of "others."
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Ref 111, Happy
I would go a step further and say that in addition to greed there was also deceit. Have people forgotten President Bush's assertions in 2007 when he responded to concerns about the state of our economy with the economic fundamentals are sound?
I think it is naive to think that people like Henry Paulsson and other experienced economists in the Bush Administration did not anticipate this mess. A more likely scenario is that they were hoping the economy would not collapse until after W had left office. Too bad.
In fairness to President Bush I think the problem began in the Reagan era when he adopted trickle down economics, against the advice of David Stockman who resigned in horror, pushed for de-regulation stating that "the government is the problem, not the solution" (a catchy phrase used by Sen. McCain during his recent campaign), and cut taxes for the wealthiest Americans while increase military spending.
Interestingly. his successor, George H. W. Bush, was not re-elected, in part, because he labeled Reagan's economic policies as voodoo economics and proposed modest tax increases to balance the budget.
Ultimately, we - the people - are responsible for the policies, or lack thereof, that have bankrupted our country. We elected and re-elected those politicians who championed fiscal irresponsibility and promised out of control spending using borrowed money to pay for it, and sent an unmistakable "don't need to apply" to any politician who advocated paying for the services we get and fiscal restraint.
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ref #83
No Unions are not a positive force for the economy.
If we are are supposed to sacrifice let that group contribute.
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116, David.
We can destroy Afghanistan, but we cannot conquer it. And if we could, which we can't, what would we have? What is the benefit, other than having yet another nation despise us? And rightfully so.
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108. Guns. Maybe we are taking completely the wrong approach.
Don't know how to stop government corruption, or stick-handle through tribal and warlord rivalries. These seem endemic. Maybe they can't be solved by outside intervention, no matter what you do.
Still, going back to first principles, war requires men, money, and motivation. So why not try drying up all three.
The war is financed by the drug trade. So, buy up the entire poppy crop and then work on crop substitution. Wouldn't it be less expensive than the present military solutions? Wouldn't farmers want to be in government controlled areas? [[Practical problem: How do you prevent the buyers, who may moonlight as druglords, from engaging in corrupt practices?]]
Forget about chasing bad guys in dangerous hill country. Instead, provide reliable civil protection for the majority so they can get on with their lives. The ISAF force is far, far too small to do the job. So, hire lots of young men for the Afghan army. Keep them busy and well supervised patrolling the towns and main roads. Take attendance frequently. Pay them regularly.
Make it difficult for people hiding in the hills to obtain supplies. Employ relatively small forces (SAS) for infrequent, specific tasks to make hill life unpleasant. Use omnipresent air surveillance, but use air strikes extremely selectively. Nobody should be able to move without being seen by a drone. When bad guys come to town for supplies, quietly arrest them, and transfer them to a road building or drainage project far away. [[Problem: How to prevent corrupt officials from seeing arrest-and-transfer as an arbitrage opportunity?]].
Build better communications links. The interstate system transformed Appalachia. Build a reliable, all year good road link south from Kandahar, through Quetta to the sea, with a brand new port at the end of it. See if water conservation and low level sustainable irrigation projects can be fostered to increase agricultural productivity. [[Practical problem: How do you keep corruption out of public works projects in this environment?]]
Employ many young men on these projects. See about placing thoughts of suitable young women in their minds. [[Government subsidized bride prices? Hmm. Pretty rum.]]
Provide lots of job training courses, starting with basic literacy, and moving onward from there.
In essence, keep track of the young men and their weapons; make sure they have money in their pockets; and make sure there are young women about. Perhaps then some of the problems might dissolve of their own accord, or look like they might someday be soluble.
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117 allmymarbles
To tell you the truth I'd like to see all of those gone too! But, that is just my personal opinion. So I will change my statement to, "I would like to see all the women who wish to remove their burquas be allowed to do so."
I believe the Afghan people should be allowed to do what they want in their own country. If they want change, then it is up to them to make the changes. Or not, it is their decision.
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122, interested, I don't know what the solution is.
Certainly a mix of positive and negative actions.
If we were just dealing with Afghanistan, the
problem might be manageable, but Pakistan
is where the real problem resides. As long
as AQ and the Taliban can operate freely there,
they will be able to destabilize anything we
try to accomplish in Afghanistan.
In particular, it may be difficult to do the
kind of infrastructure improvements that
you suggest with suicide bombers coming
down from the hills.
The border between Afghanistan and Pakistan
doesn't really mean much. It was drawn on
the map by some British administrator who
did not involve people living in the area.
And, the Pakistani government, besides being
infiltrated with Taliban sympathizers, is not
really effective at exerting control over
much of their country.
Probably, in the end, we'll reach some sort of
accommodation with tribes in the area, but
I agree with others that it is misguided to
try to impose our values on them. So what
if we don't agree with how they treat women?
Nothing that we do is going to change that.
We have to look at specific objectives in the
situation can be accomplished. I suggest that
they be limited to preventing terrorist attacks
from being inflicted on people in the areas
that we can control, and preventing Pakistan
from being taken over by extremists.
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Ref 122
Investment in education, job creation, improvements in infrastructure, healthcare and the standard of living in that hapless country would accomplish what the military solutions advanced by the Soviet Union and the USA have failed to do.
The first requirement to stabilize not only Afghanistan, but the entire region, is to determine what our objectives are. Are we there to capture/kill Osama bin Laden and destroy Al Qaeda, or is our goal to occupy that country and force them to embrace socio-political values that are inconsistent with their culture and traditions?
The first thing we must do is accept the fact that the Taleban had no involvement in 9/11; that tragedy was inflicted by members of Al Qaeda, some of whom learned how to fly in universities in the USA, not training camps for low-level terrorists.
Regardless of whether the Taleban allowed Al Qaeda to operate their training camps in Afghanistan willingly or whether they simply did not have the military and political strength to expel them, the fact is that the Taleban leaders responsible for that circumstance are gone. What is not gone is the Taleban itself, an organization intent on maintaining the centuries-old traditions that most Afghans believe and that, today, is perceived to be the only organization capable of resisting the occupation of that country by "Western infidels".
The best approach, IMO, is to focus on capturing OBL with spies and a small special forces unit, and initiate negotiations with the Taleban designed to restore stability in that region and Pakistan before this conflict escalates out of control.
It may also be a good idea to determine who is funding and providing weapons to Al Qaeda. Are those naughty Saudi Wahabbist princes still pursuing a fatwah?
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123, timewaits.
"I believe the Afghan people should be allowed to do what they want in their own country. If they want change, then it is up to them to make the changes. Or not, it is their decision."
My thoughts exactly. We have no right to impose our customs (and prejudices) on other cultures. It is not as though we were squeaky clean.
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115 Marbles.
First, I do not disagree that we (the west collectively) may have caused many of the problems in the first place. Opportunistic Western meddling in response to the 1979 invasion by the Soviet Union has led us to reap a bitter harvest indeed.
I would, however, go further back, and suggest that the partition of India was botched rather badly, and the problems in Afghanistan now are not unrelated to the role of Pakistan in the area.
Second, I make no pretense of even beginning to match your knowledge of this region.
You have asked why we are there.
As far as I remember, somewhere back in the mists of time we went to Afghanistan to chase some bin Laden fellow from his sanctuary after 9/11.
Bin Laden was chased out of Tora Bora into Pakistan with the Americans in hot pursuit. This seems to have allowed some folks to charge bin Laden a fairly high fee to enter Pakistan. It's an ill wind that blows no good.
Who knows where Mullah Omar went? Probably Quetta.
The idea then was to re-establish a non-Taliban civilian government. Our presence was supposed to be "temporary". Well, its seven years and counting.
I agree with President Obama when he says the US took its eye off the ball by invading Iraq. Afghanistan was allowed to wallow and fester.
So, now, seven years later, the original job still hasn't been completed (capture or kill bin Laden), we still haven't completed the second job (establish a stable government so we can go home), and the Taliban are back in business.
Instead, we have become ever more deeply involved in a bewilderingly complex state whose history, languages and cultures we understand but poorly, and whose economy seems to depend uncomfortably heavily on narco-dollars from a dominant narcotic cash crop (sort of like BC).
Instead of bringing truth, justice and light, we are now engaged as handmaidens propping up an unsavory government that is smelling less popular, less competent and more unsavory by the day. We are doing this to prevent it from being kicked over by the previous even more unsavory bunch, the Taliban.
(My comments concerning one example of this government unsavoriness may have been what got No. 72 banned)
So why don't we get out?
Well, while the demise of the Karzai government might not be a cause for much sorrow, the return of the Taliban, with public beheadings in the soccer stadium, probably isn't that great an option, either. The example with the school girls and acid was, I believe, but one of many, many deeds by which the Talibs have established the reputation that they so deservedly enjoy.
I'd be glad if our troops could come home, but it would be better if we could do so in a way that does the least harm. If we had not gone there in the first place, there would certainly be no reason to go there now. But the fact is we are there, and even in leaving we ought to try not to make irresponsible choices. Of course, that begs the question of what a "responsible choice" might be.
None of the choices is great.
We don't have anywhere near adequate numbers of troops to do either of the jobs we were supposed to do in the first place. We can't take the war into Pakistan, because it is a friendly nation (begging the obvious question of just what constitutes "friendly", but I'll just let that pass) through which the majority of our supplies must travel.
The option of leaving the field to the Taliban is one that I suspect western governments are loathe to make, and it would surprise me if that is what the majority of Afghans would prefer in any event.
That, of course, leaves the option of pulling out and letting the present government fend for itself. Well, it would almost certainly be kicked over by the Taliban in short order, bin Laden would return to a hero's welcome with Mullah Omar, and we would have the same failed state and refuge for terrorists that existed on September 12, 2001.
Since that isn't a happy choice, a seemingly better option is to build up the Afghan government so that it can stand on its own two feet without western support, and then leave.
However, Nato can't establish a stable government that is capable of defending itself unless it has more public support, and it can't establish public support until it tackles corruption, and it can't tackle corruption because the installation of Paddy Ashdown (?) i.e., a competent administrator, as a quasi-proconsul in the Bosnia-Herzogovina style was refused.
So, right now, we can't go forward and we can't go back.
The US government seems to think that the best way to improve the available options is to increase troop levels. This may give Nato the leverage to permit a change of personnel in the government of Afghanistan, which seems to be a necessary step in solving the problems in the South and in the Police. It may also permit the Americans to be more persuasive in making the argument for a proconsul, which would remove many opportunities for corruption. Finally, it may permit stabilization of certain regions in the South and East by allowing areas to be taken and held. If they can be taken and held, perhaps something resembling normalcy can be established for long enough that the institutions of the Afghan government can be nurtured a bit until they can stand on their own in the face of the Taliban, and we can all go home.
Of course, perhaps by then bin Laden will have died of old age.
Or something.
It is not at all clear how the Pakistan issue is going to be addressed, or the supply line issue, where the Russians have been turning the screws a bit tighter.
In any case, it is a very difficult problem.
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114, British-ish
"You are making a fundamental mistake. NATO was not founded as, and is not now, simply another division of the US army."
Maybe my remark was somewhat offensive without me noticing it. Nevertheless, in an alliance, you should help each other. I added a particular part of the document to give an oversight (to MA II) how much we were supporting the USA. Sending 3 men is almost literally symbolical, though.
In case of Iraq, I would not have agreed with sending 1. But this was (and still is) another war. 9/11 was an attack on the USA. The USA is part of NATO. If a NATO-member is attacked, other members should help it. That's a basic rule.
But this is just the starting point, which is clouded by preemptive action and war on terror and other stuff from the neocon vocabulary (How much do we know, anyway). Just as you (probably), I don't think this war can be won. For that reason I think it should be a better idea to start helping the local Afghans to defend themselves against the Taleban and AQ.
I have no idea how the opium/money problem can be solved, and I'm curious how much of those poppy fields are run by locals and / or Taleban.
I don't know what you mean by democracy. I'm Dutch. Over here, we have just ten political parties in our parliament. The newest is called The Animal Party, with two seats in parliament. They defend the rights of animals (You know, the stuff that was lost in Animal Farm) and have made some progress!
But, back to topic, a government has to decide whether troops will be deployed. Without exception, the voting population will easier accept deployment of peace-keepers (Libanon, Bosnia) than of fighters. I'm glad it does. However, sometimes you cannot stand aside. Maybe, if from day one more European countries had sent more peacekeepers, a standstill could have been prevented.
Now more peacekeepers are necessary, next to military advisers. Obama's action to send more troops is probably a last attempt to get some order in Afghanistan. I don't think these new arrivals will be dropped in the mountains to combat.
The Dutch population was not happy with their guys being transformed from peacekeepers to fighters and maybe this was reflected in the outcome of the last election. However, our next government did not pull back the 1500. Even if you've made an error, you cannot leave a mess without trying to get some order in it.
It's a difficult topic.. I think we Europeans should support the USA, as NATO-members, in their attempt to reinstate some kind of peace without getting the Taleban back in leadership. Those guys were a nightmare for their own people, don't you agree?
Maybe we should let them have their tribal rules, however, instead of forcing them into a democratic farce. So, after all, I don't believe in democracy, dependent on what country we're discussing; or maybe we should look at a tribal society as a lot of small democracies. You tell me.
"It is entirely up to each member nation as to where it deploys its armed forces, and these deployments are agreed through democratic consultation and negotiation."
and
"Many NATO members are occupied in peace-keeping around the world; perhaps people ought to take that into account, too."
Don't be surprised that I agree.
(Deja vu) Don't shoot the messenger. Most of the time it's the diplomat as well.
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124, guns.
"And, the Pakistani government, besides being infiltrated with Taliban sympathizers, is not really effective at exerting control over much of their country."
All of the borders in the area are permeable.
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The economy, ah, what sweet irony.
The real problem here is that the wealth isn't moving. Ok, where is it? In the hands of the wealthiest people in the USA, the top 1-10%. To make money, one needs to spend it, that's a truism. So, the rich man must invest to gain dough. Where have they been investing? In luxury items, and outside the USA (to avoid humanitarian reforms which increase product price). Problem is, those non American factories are dependent on the USA having money to buy their products. So, when the rich decide to move their factories outside the USA to avoid unions and humanitarian interests costing them dough, what happens?
The USA runs out of money. The economy which was built upon the USA crumbles, and so the rest of the world market goes with it, since it's equally dependent on the USA having dough and a ready market for their wares.
The Republicans have had their heads stuck in "feed the rich" for far too long now. Reagan (who is even now a GOP idol) began this, and it was never stopped in the 20+ years since.
This leads to refuting Republican founding principles eventually. Why? Tax the rich the least, tax the middle and poor more, and thus concentrate the wealth in the richest. But when a rich man gets dough, he has the choice of investing it, saving it, or spending on luxury items. Guess which option has been ignored? Investment. Why is this a bad thing? The money becomes static, and eventually we run out of technological and market growth because the infrastructure isn't there. Spending on luxury items isn't good either, since the vast majority of the economy is based on the essentials, the things we all need to live (food, clothing, shelter, etc). The market collapses, therefore.
The rich (corporations and individuals) have concentrated on get rich quick schemes, and NOT investment and thus steady growth. How to fix this? Tax the rich, use the money to build infrastructure, reduce the taxes on the middle and lower classes. Force the rich to invest, in other words. If they had invested properly all this time, this wouldn't be necessary.
Giggling at the upper class greed and stupidity.....
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Oh, forgot!
Why does the GOP giving dough to the richest negate their principles eventually?
In order to do so, one must keep the poorer classes in the dark as to what you are doing. This means less education(so we don't know any better), less prosecution of white collar laws (to keep any criminal tendencies of corporations quiet, and thus buff their image, so we WANT to give them dough), and eventually concentration of power in federal, as opposed to state government (to better enable squashing of resistance by concentrating power in one location). This is EXACTLY the opposite of what the founders of the Republican party intended. They wanted power in the hands of the STATE, not federal. Power to the people, in other words.
So, the GOP falls from power (inevitably because they ruined the economy thru 20 years plus of this) but they STILL think Reagan is the bomb.... Gee, I wonder how long the party will survive, given this dinosaur mentality?
Deliciously ironic, eh? I'm giggling....
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127, interested.
In the first place Osama is no longer there. Why are we so intent on punishing innocent civilians because he was once there? And he wasn't there by the will of the entire country - just a small faction.
In any case, bin Laden is not important. He is merely a symbol for the sentiments of that part of the world for the West. If he were captured nothing would change. In fact it would get worse. We should get out and leave that poor country alone.
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As long as the U.S. and NATO keep looking at Afghanistan as a "nation" sitting nicely within imaginary lines on a map, the only accomplishment that can be expected is the continued production of carion.
Take a closer look at this "nation" of 33 million people. The average median age is 17.6 years; 45% of which is under the age of 15 years old. There are 7 major ethnic groups speaking some 33 languages. There are also over 82 political parties. Does anything in those statistics have the smell of unity? Anything like the most elemental, unified identity of a nation?
Even though the official name of this "nation" is the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan; it is hardly Islamic. One must be literate to be a true believer, as stated in the Koran. With only 28% literacy the Republic is only Islamic in name given to it by some politician in the capital, Kabul.
One should view these 82 political parties as being 82 tribes, each with their own agenda. These are tribal peoples. They do not look to Kabul for direction. Just as the Soviets were late to discover. He who rules Kabul, rules little else. We are not fighting one war. We are fighting 82 wars to unite a people who do not wish to be united.
The Western world looks at Afghanistan the same way the the U.S. looked at the tribal people who lived on land the U.S. wanted in the expansionist policies of the 1800's. The only successful way the U.S. ever discovered in taking care of their "indian problem" was genocide.
As far as building communications to unite a people; there are over 30 language groups. How do you represent all those languages on the sides of a cereal box? Or a tube of lip balm?
As far as infra-structure is concerned; there have been expensive efforts to create a system of roads, bridges, dams, etc. since the late 1940's. There are only 12,350 km of paved roads in 60 years of building projects. The climate and politican conflicts chews up even the best built roads.
We are dealing with a nation of teenagers (median age 17.6) who have largely raised themselves because their elders were killed off in the Soviet social experiment and consequent power struggle after the Soviets left the theater. How often do you talk with a teenager from a dysfunctional home? How often can you get the dysfunctional teenager to listen to rational advice and take logical direction?
Note: Statisical information obtained from the CIA World Factbook (I know! I know!)
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133 publiusdetroit
Very well done.
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133, publius.
The multiplicity of languages might be misleading, in that Afghans often speak more than one. Dari, a dialect of Farsi, is the most common, followed by another Indo-European language, Poshto. Baluchi and Tajik, also related to Farsi, are spoken by smaller groups. Other languages are turkic and Indo-Aryan in origin. I should think the number of languages stated by the CIA includes obscure dialects that may not be meaningful. All educated people can speak Dari.
One thing is for sure. Afghans are a very independent people and we are wasting our time there.
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33 publiusdetroit:
What the CIA World FactBook is missing is that the Brits there have estimated that 72 per cent of the country is now under the 'effective' control of the Taleban or the movement's sympathisers.
Oh, and in Britain, our news continually refers to the 'provinces' involved; we have long ago learnt that they and the tribal areas of north western Pakistan are not 'Afghanistan' or 'Pakistan'. I'd guess most Brits -- and especially those on the ground -- regard Karzai as nothing more than Mayor of Kabul . . .
And please, Guns (and others) do not fall for the right's late concerted attempt to make Pakistan an extension of Afghanistan. I am always astonished by how a policy that fails in one part of the world is transported to another.
Use Iraq as an excuse to spread the war to Iran because the US does not like its government? Oh, that didn't work.
Now try Pakistan? It's bound to work there . . .
There is no evidence whatsoever that Osama Bin Laden is or has ever been in Pakistan. Just assertions by the CIA; the same sort of intelligence, one presumes, that continually tells us civilians killed by missiles were 'Taleban militants' for days, then discovers they were in fact civilians.
And I note in the American media that when that happens, the forces in Afghanistan are described as 'coalition' or 'Nato forces'. . .
US policy for the last few years, and it is sad to see Obama continuing it, is not to spread the load, but to spread the blame . . .And the dollars and viagara around the same warlords and poppy growers . . .
There is only one aim left: to 'contain' or 'discourage' the most militant and unpleasant fundamentalist Taleban until someone somewhere gets a better working polity in place.
And after the mess of the last few years, that's not going to happen in a decade even.
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Hey guys. Afghani opium is a new thing. Hash is their product of choice but because the profits per cubic metre are smaller they moved to Opium.
because of the same drug Laws that led to super strong skunk. crack. and every other more potent variety of drugs.
They smoke and smoked hash. Sure legalise the opium buying for medical use. but also allow hash to be bought and sold on the open market.
RE legalise it, give them a traditional market.
Or carry on trying to TELL them what to do and fail.
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oh but legalising Pot would bring the world to the brink.
or so it seems they , you must think.
because the west has tried everything to stop it , and now Mexico is falling apart. afganistan is falling apart.
Americais as well. keep buying them forn drugs that helps the economy right?
Now I bet if someone went to the drug dealers cartels and said we will allow you to invest there would be some big trucks full of cash turning up.
No need to print it.
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Ref 135 allmymarbles
The statistic notation of multiple languages is more a devise to illustrate another facet of the complexity this region has for anyone attempting to fashion unity among these people.
If we use literacy as a measure for the extent of education in the overall population we are looking at less than a third of the populace being educated.
I think the more important factors are the astounding percentage of the population under the age of 15, the number of ethnic groups, and the number of political parties.
Especially the uneducated and under-educated youth. This group is more likely to fall under "gang" influence for the purpose of survival in a confusing social structure. Also more ready to follow what may be viewed by them as a strong leadership provided by a political/religious group such as the Taliban.
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Ref 136 british-ish
There is another opportunity for the U.S. to show how much it still fails to remember lessons learned in Vietnam. Our carpet bombing in Cambodia and Laos did little more than poke holes in the ground and irrate the people of those two nations.
With all the other problems we face in our nation, we do not need to swat at another hornet nest. Pakistan will be no less of a nut to crack.
Median age of 20.5 years (37.8% under the age of 15). More than 6 ethnic groups; 8 languages. 20 plus political groups.
We need to find a way out of the region. Not a means to ignite an even worse disaster.
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In a perfect world, I would hope that some area of Afghanistan would be stabilized so the Afghans could build from that base, if the desire is there. Then our troops could come home having accomplished something and all the deaths would not have been in vain. Canadians are not at all happy that our beloved Peacekeepers have been turned into fighting troops (much the same as the Dutch). We believe our responsibility in this world is to help others, not kill their citizens.
If I remember correctly, a few years ago Karzai thanked the Canadian people for their contribution and could we please send more money.
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Everyone's a winner but on whose timescale?
Justin writes -
"So he wants time."
Then we have the 6 hour flying visit to visiting the rest of the North American "family" - Canada. "Leaping down" to dispense prizes. "Oscars or Razzies"?
1st Link -Changing the deal in respect of protectionism. Two hours at Parliament Hill. Too short a visit for some.
2nd link - Karl Rove does it better. " Less than 700 hours after taking the oath of office" and he's 'winging it'
3rd link about Iran. From the Financial times I had expected at least a 'less than 42000 minutes as President and he has done nothing about Iran's possible nuclear capabilities', or a UN official stating that despite Obama's 2.5 million seconds in office more Uranium than expected is being produced. Even a scientist link to the half life of Uranium [ 4.46 billion years] would be better than the "your 30 days allowance of viewing articles is up!" that I get to read.
The ending was good- Approval ratings of 80%, Fish and chips and then bottled respect? Soft power or soft in the head?
Hope you didn't get indigestion all that rushing about and then throwing your meal down! Everything based upon a hurry, hurry hurry concept.
Only 3 years and 11 months more to go in office and we are already being subjected to the "Obama is dragging his feet and ain't done enough yet.?!"
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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136, British-ish, perhaps you took what I said
the wrong way. The problem with Pakistan is
that its government has little control of most of
the country. I don't propose to topple that government,
because then we would be faced with extremists
in control of nuclear weapons.
On the other hand, the Pakistani Intelligence
Service (ISI) is infiltrated by Taliban sympathizers,
so it has to be cleaned up or replaced.
The most immediate threat in the region is
really a war between Pakistan and India;
in the resulting chaos, Islamic fundamentalists
could take over. This was the real motive behind
the Mumbai attack.
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Ref 141 timewaitsfornoman
The northwestern region has been relatively stable. The majority of the problems center around Kandahar and the southern border with Pakistan. Primarily populated by the Pashtun, this region is an epic, historic hotbed.
Do keep in mind that I state the northwest is "relatively" stable. By Afghan standards it may be considered to be peaceful, pastorial. By our standards it is like driving through the Southwest side of Detroit at night. Keep your car doors locked. Do not wear anything that might be mistaken for "colors". A handy, defensive weapon is advised. Do not engage the locals in conversation. Stay on the major roads. Just keep driving.
Rudyard Kipling has some interesting stories of the Khyber Pass and border region still relevant today. Also James Michener's "Caravans" is an excellent novel giving insight of Afghanistan and its people around the late 1940's to early 1950's during the most peaceful period of time in the history of Afghanistan (1933-73).
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@Jeebers (102): Three observations about Obama's action:
1. We are $54 TRILLION in DEBT, counting those unfunded obligations to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid (SS/M/M) that the Congress has allowed to pile up.
Fixing "the deficit" without paying attention to the DEBT is useless. If the deficit is ZERO, that only means that we are not headed FURTHER INTO THE HOLE. Where is the plan to begin PAYING OFF THE DEBT?
2. It's fine for Obama to propose a plan to reduce the deficit by half (although as was pointed out above, reducing the deficit to zero still leaves this nation $54 trillion underwater). Certainly that's a laudable action. You will recall, however, that CONGRESS, NOT the President, is ultimately responsible for the budget. What financial responsibility has Congress shown over the past, say, 50 years?
Who was it that decided that we should not directly address the expenses in SS/M/M, but should use SS receipts to offset deficit spending in the general budget? Well, that was the Congress, way back in the 1960s.
Who began the process of forcing banks to make more-risky mortgage loans? The Congress, in the 1970s.
Who was it that declared Reagan's budgets "dead on arrival" with great glee in the 80s, and substituted their own? Well, that was the Congress.
Who failed to pass a Balanced Budget amendment in the 1990s? The Congress.
Who failed to require proper funding and accounting for spending for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq? The Congress.
Who is therefore ultimately accountable for our nations's horrible finances, including first of all the $54 trillion in debt? The Congress.
3. A minor point here: It's fine if you want to rag the Republicans and Reagan, but you might recall that the Democrats have controlled Congress for far longer over the past 50 years than the Republicans did (including complete control of the House during Reagan's terms, and control of the Senate for all but 2 years of Reagan's terms), and so the bulk of the responsibility for the $54 trillion in debt (which as pointed out before is the only figure to pay attention to) must be laid at their doorstep. The failure of the Republicans to be responsible stewards of the nation's finances while they were in control of Congress is reprehensible--but so are the failures of the Democrats, and they have more to answer for simply because they held the reins longer.
All: Most folks forget that the real power in Washington is NOT the President--it's the Congress. The folks who pay their campaign debts want folks to forget that, because that way it's easier for them to get what they want out of the Washington system. We originally sent those 535 folks to Washington to pay attention to the long-term interests of the country; but instead they are basically wholly-owned subsidiaries of the organizations that foot the bills for their political campaigns.
If we want change here, we'll correct that by emptying out the Congress of most everyone who is in it (if not everyone) and restocking it with folks who won't play games with our cash or otherwise abdicate their responsibilities, and who will take the necessary steps (Balanced Budget Amendment, simplifying the tax code and making it enforceable, and funding elections to remove the obligation for elected officials to have to repay campaign contributors) to allow Congress to once again focus on the long-term view.
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Ref 145 arclightt
Here! Here! I agree!
While we are at it, let us dump both parties into the crapper and have one giant flush for mankind! Both parties are far too entangled in PAC's and other special interest groups to ever be able to free themselves of their masters for the responsible governance of the U.S.
We need at least one, new popular political party to break the deadlock. A party that upholds the Constitution and has the best interest of the nation, and the world at its heart.
Unfortunately, I did not see any such party on the last ballot. It would be ideal if our bright and beautiful youth were to create this new party. They are the ones that will be inheriting this crumbly, old estate.
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144 publiusdetroit
"The majority of the problems center around Kandahar" Which is where the Canadians are stationed, being killed by roadside bombs. What is the point and use of that?
Since Canada does not traditionally "go to war" our soldiers are fine, well educated young people, who joined up to rescue people at sea or from avalanches or citizens of Toronto from snow drifts! They enlisted to be Peacekeepers to do some good in this world. They did not sign on to kill people. But killing people they are. The majority of Canadians do-not-like-it!
Previously someone was surprised to learn Canada does not have enough equipment. A tank is not needed at sea or on a mountain top!
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146, publius, our young suffer from the problem
that we did (I don't know your age, so I am assigning
a default value.)
The problem, of course, is that they are still idealistic,
and haven't been around the block enough times
to know that it is being used against them.
Once again, youth is wasted on the young.
As for myself, however, I feel that I have finally
learned how to be young and wise simultaneously.
Perhaps I can go back to school now like
Rodney Dangerfield.
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gunsandreligion
"back to school" Never mind youth is wasted on the young, so is education. I often wish to return to my last days of High School, early university. I'm sure I would find it a lot more enjoyable. Might even learn something! A friend of mine teaches advanced high school English and the book under discussion was, "The Confederacy of Dunces." Well, I love that book! and asked facetiously if I could join his class. Since he did not say "yes" I took it as a "no."
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Ref 147 timewaitsfornoman
Believe me when I state, my heart goes out to the Canadian Forces and their loved ones. I have walked that mile, and know they are stationed in harms way.
Canada has made a commitment of its forces until 2011. I am certain they will stand by that term, and hope they do not prolong it. Just as I hope the U.S. troops will come home at least by then.
My preference is that they all come home tomorrow. We have far too many amputees and flag-draped coffins. There are too many dark dreams and terrified screams awakening the night.
Peace be with thee.
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140, publiusdetroit wrote:
"We need to find a way out of the region. Not a means to ignite an even worse disaster."
A better informed press (and consequently public), fewer think tanks and maybe more people with political power reading Graham Greene's the Quiet American so they realise the same mistakes are being made that were made fifty years ago, would help.
Otherwise, I won't be holding my breath.
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136, ish-ish.
As usual, you make sense.
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137, happy.
"Hey guys. Afghani opium is a new thing. Hash is their product of choice but because the profits per cubic metre are smaller they moved to Opium."
No way is it a new thing. The Afghans have been growing opium for decades.
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141, timewaits.
"In a perfect world, I would hope that some area of Afghanistan would be stabilized so the Afghans could build from that base, if the desire is there. Then our troops could come home having accomplished something and all the deaths would not have been in vain."
You have it backwards. It was the Russians and America that destabilized Afghanistan. If we get out the Afghans will take care of themselves. You are suggesting that asylum inmates are the ones best able to run the asylum.
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publius -
Here in Vermont there is a fairly strong Progressive Party with lots of seats in the state legislature, and they seem to really have the good of the state as their first priority. I think it would make a good alternative national third party. Unfortunately, what happens here in statewide elections is that the Democrat and Progressive vote is split, which is how we ended up with a Republican governor (first time around he got 40% of the vote and keeps getting reelected because he hasn't done anything truly nasty and the Democratic candidates have been really lame). This same thing could happen with our representative and senator except that that they often don't put up opposing candidates (Democrat/Progressive) so as to avoid having a Republican win.
I also wish we could start fresh with new people in Congress. I don't believe anyone in either party (except Sanders, and no one listens to him) gives a damn about anything except getting re-elected. Just listening to them spout off on various topics makes me want to puke.
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144, publius.
"Also James Michener's "Caravans" is an excellent novel giving insight of Afghanistan and its people around the late 1940's to early 1950's during the most peaceful period of time in the history of Afghanistan (1933-73)."
Sorry, Publius, but "Caravans" was a load of crap, written by a dilletante who saw the country through the wndow of a fast-moving car. I was disgusted when I read it. The only purpose of the book was to make money for a popular author who felt he could write anything and it would sell. Of authenticity there was none. I am still angry when I think about it.
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144, publius.
P.S. I was in Afghanistan around the time Mitchner wrote his "book." I spent quite a bit of time there and met people from different walks of life. Unlike Mitchner, I don't dwell in superficial or second-hand knowledge. And it certainly helps to speak the language, which I do. Mitchner wrote a pot boiler.
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Ref 148 gunsandreligion
My impression of the current generation of new voters is skewed by the friends of my son; along with neices and nephews.
My son was working full-time at a factory and attending college full-time during the last election. His friends and acquaintances from work, college, and long-time chums ran across the political spectrum.
I was pleased with how closely they followed the candidates and issues; and the lively, thoughtful debates they would enter into among themselves and with an "old-timer" like myself. (I'm 56) They went to the polls as an informed electorate.
There is hope.
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"And, to put it bluntly, aren't you Americans big enough to fight your own wars?"
Oh, sure, but the question is whether Great Britain is. It used to be. These days, though, I'm not seeing much in the way of traditional British military prowess.
This is Britain's war, too. The only difference is that unlike in the U.S., the enemy might very well be inside Britain's borders, living as British citizens.
And yet you dawdle. Is al Qaeda not holding your interest?
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Ref 145, Arclightt
"We are $54 TRILLION in DEBT, counting those unfunded obligations to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid (SS/M/M) that the Congress has allowed to pile up."
The $54 trillion is just the unfunded liabilities (money raided from the Social Security Trust Fund surpluses to make the federal deficits less offensive, and debt incurred to keep MEDICARE and MEDICAID afloat), it does not include the $11 trillion national debt and, most importantly, it does not include our corporate and personal debts which surpass the above.
Our immediate goal must be to turn the economy around, but after that we must focus on balancing the annual federal budgets and reducing the national debt.
The question is: how are we going to deal with the corporate and personal debts? Write offs? That's one of the biggest problems affecting the auto industry, in addition to people not buying because we are broke or too uncertain about what the future holds for us.
The money that GM and Chrysler are asking for is simply to meet their quarterly debt obligations, which does nothing to improve their business integrity.
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So-called foreign leaders aren't the only ones left wondering "what Obama stands for". So far he's been most adept at standing for absolutely nothing except preserving the status quo while dissembling about non-existent 'hope' and 'change'. Obama is the half-black version of Tony Blair, a two-faced corporate chameleon and imperial warmonger posing as a fresh voice of moderation and conciliation. That charade won't last long as the U.S. sinks deeper into recession at home and deeper into quagmire in Afghanistan and the Middle East. After Blairack Obama is done pounding his soft shoe on the table at the NATO confab, perhaps he can lend it to an obliging journalist to hurl at him.
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154 allmymarbles
In that case, I will take off my rose coloured glasses and start pushing for our troops to come home. I never wanted them there in the first place and was very opposed when the deadline for their withdrawal was extended.
I have not read Caravans but promise not to do so. No point in filling my head with misinformation.
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156 allmymables
I withdraw my recommendation of "Caravans" on your testimony.
Michener's book did open the door to my curiosity about Afghanistan when I first read it back in the late 60's. I went on to discover much more about the region from that humble beginning.
I am going to have to read it once again to see if my eyes has become more discerning.
Ms. Marbles. Is there a book on Afghanistan inside of you? I would certainly be interested in reading of your experiences.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
163, publius.
The majority of my experience is in Iran. But Iran is a large country and the northeastern part of the country abuts Afghanistan. A border does not suddenly create a totally different people. In northeastern Iran the people are more dry in their humor and not as boisterous as they are in, say, Tehran or Esfahan. I found the Afghans yet more restrained, but not a poeple alien to me. We spoke the same language, Farsi, which they call Dari, so I could move around easily.
I must say I liked the Afghans tremendously. They were kind and perhaps a little more innocent than Iranians. That may be because they were not as modernized, or as exposed to the outside world. I have extremely fond memories of the area and wish I had spent more time there.
Before the revolution, at a time when Iran was enjoying great prosperity, there was a shortage of low-level workers. Afghans came in droves to Tehran to fill the gap. At first the Tehranis were nervous because they saw the Afghans as ferocious warriors. This may be true of some of the tribes, but I had not spent time with the tribes of Afghanistan. It is also true that Iranians are afraid of everyone, especially Russians, whom they consider barbaric.
I have always been suspicious of Russia's invasion of Afghanistan. It coincided with the "Iranian" revolution. The Iranians' great fear at the time was that they would be invaded by Russia which had made previous incursions. Yet not a single Russian crossed the border. Was something going on behind the scenes....
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164, MagicKirin -
You seem to get your "facts" about Vermont from Rush Limbaugh and the like. Stop wasting your time and research the real facts surrounding the issues you mention. If you're not interested in facts, you ought to at least stop mouthing off in ignorance. Your ignorance is what is disgusting.
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164. At 10:12pm on 23 Feb 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #155
Although I like vacationing in VT.
Your State govt is known for:
Refusing to pass Jessicaa's law
Judges who give suspended sentances to child molestors
wasting state resources on iniative to arrest Bush and CVheney
And a disgusting partsian fraud named Pat Leahy"
And the way you show your disapproval is by vacationing there and giving the good people of Vermont your money!
Boy are you ever screwed up
I bet the people of Vermont and Mr Leahy welcome your disgust
But then you read Alan Dershowitz so we must not expect too much.
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166. At 10:40pm on 23 Feb 2009, bere54 wrote:
164, MagicKirin -
You seem to get your "facts" about Vermont from Rush Limbaugh and the like. Stop wasting your time and research the real facts surrounding the issues you mention. If you're not interested in facts, you ought to at least stop mouthing off in ignorance. Your ignorance is what is disgusting."
This guy is a devotee of Alan Dershowitz. So facts aren't exactly his strongpoint
Far right fanaticism however....
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166, bere.
I have always thought of Vermont as a free spirit. Also, the people drive Subarus, so they must be smart.
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MagicKirin
I'm rather surprised you like vacationing there. I'd avoid the place if I was as opposed as you are. What I know about Vermont is that they are very good neighbours. I know nothing of the things you have listed. Nor is it my business as I do not live there.
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ref #166
I don't listen to Rush.
But I seem to know about your liberal intolerant state than you do.
But personal attacks are the last refuge of a scoundral.
there is a reason that Killington wants to join NH.
Vermont extremists don't deserve to enjoy the beauty of Vermont.
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171, ubermensch.
"I don't listen to Rush."
Aha! You call him by his first name. Gotcha!
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Ref 165 allmymarbles
Very interesting. There is a book in you. Please write it.
What do you think of Jame Clavell's "Whirlwind"? Aside from the more... sensual diversions. Does it at least give some insight into life in Iran during the Revolution?
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171, MoronKirin -
You very obviously know nothing about Vermont. We would prefer that people like you not vacation here. Even the wealthy second-home-owners in Killington who don't like paying taxes don't like your type. Please take your vacation dollars elsewhere so you don't drive away the nice tourists who appreciate the people who make their visits so pleasant.
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Regarding Ref 171 MagicKirin
Gee, bere! How can a liberal like you live in such a liberal intolerant State?
Magic. There is some kosher wine in the cabinet. Maybe a couple glasses while you read some Dershowitz fantasies will help you unwind a bit.
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ref #172
It like calling Oprah winfrey: Oprah
I don't watch her either.
I work for a living
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I wonder if MoronKirin is the tourist who checked into a room at Stratton Mountain one winter evening, then called the desk in outrage because he had been promised a room with a view. The desk clerk told him he had one of the best views in the resort. The tourist ranted that he could not see a thing outside his window. The clerk, puzzled, thought about this for a moment, then realized the problem. "Wait until daylight," he said. "There are no street lights on the mountains." The tourist did in fact have a glorious view of miles of uninhabited mountains.
I know about this because the desk clerk was my son. The tourist never apologized for his idiotic tirade.
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175, publius -
Nobody told us liberals here that Vermont was liberal intolerant. Guess we'll have to move to a liberal tolerant state. Oh wait, we already live in the most liberal tolerant state. I can't figure out why MoronKirin wants to spend his money in such a hateful (to him) place. I thought the right-wing had been ordered by their leaders to boycott us. We haven't missed them.
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173, publius.
"What do you think of Jame Clavell's "Whirlwind"? Aside from the more... sensual diversions. Does it at least give some insight into life in Iran during the Revolution?"
After the revolution so many lies were written that I decided not to read anything about it for fear of distorting my memories. I, and those I went through the revolution with, knew the truth. We don't need pundits to explain it to us, or perhaps to lie to us. It may be a perfectly fine book, but I will not read it.
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165 Marbles:
You have got my curiosity working overtime.
I seems to recall that the Tajiks (?) in the Panshir valley in the North East of Afghanistan never surrendered to the Taliban who, it seems to me were predominantly Pushtuns supported by Pakistan. It also seems to me that those in the north west who were predominantly ethnically Uzbeks and Hazaris (?) also resented Taliban Rule.
Supposing the western forces leave. What do you see happening? Will the people in the north east and north west welcome the return of the Taliban? Will other neighbours take up where the Nato forces left off? It seems to me that India was the principle, and very quiet, supporter of the Tajiks. Did Iran, Uzbekistan and Russia not also have their fingers in the pie?
What do you see as happening ?
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allmymarbles -
You're right - there are so many Subarus here it looks like one big car ad. Most of them are Outbacks. A good friend of mine has a vanity plate on her car so she can identify it in parking lots.
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177, 178, bere.
My daughter attended college in Vermont. She fell so in love with it that she wants to buy property there. We have been scouting it out for her (she is abroad) and I understand completely. And, just think, if she does get a place there, we will have an excuse to visit.
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ref #178
Case rested on people who can't argue using personal attacks.
In regard to VT like Mass, most of the residents have contempt for judges who let out pedophiles.
Why you elected idiot like Bernie Sanders and partsian haters like Pat Leahy is beyond me.
But except for the hiking, sking and good restaurants, especially the clueless in Montpelier your state has a lot to improve.
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173, publius.
Somewhat off the subject of Afghanistan, but related given our embroilment in the Middle East, are two articles in today's New York Times. One is about the situation of Jews in Iran and the other has to do with the nation's power structure. Both are valid and interesting.
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182, allmymarbles -
I hope your daughter (or you) makes herself aware of the tax situation before any property is purchased. Anything more than two acres (I think that's the amount) is excess on the homestead and taxed separately and doesn't get a break under Act 60, the education act. And the property taxes are very, very high (hence Killington's publicity stunt about seceding to join NH). This can come as quite a shock to anyone who has not investigated ahead of time. The homestead property tax is income-sensitive, not counting those extra acres.
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180, interested.
I am not enough of an expert in that particular area to answer your questions with assurance. However, it is important to know that, given the structure of the country, no one force will ever rule it. In a lesser sense this is also true of Iran. Do you really think the Iranian government rules Baluchistan?
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183 - Informing someone he is ignorant is not a personal attack; it is stating a fact. This is the last I will address to you: You do not know what you are talking about and if I were you I would be embarrassed to spout such ignorance. But then I'm not you, and boy am I glad of that. Good bye.
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allmymarbles -
I am finding all this information about Iran and Afghanistan very interesting. I'll look for those articles you mention. Do you mind my asking, what is your background and how long were you in that area?
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Ref 164 MagicKirin
Jessica's Law: Michigan Version
16 year old boy dates 15 year old girl in the same grade together. They fall in love, go steady for two years. Their love is forever.
18 year old boy breaks up with 17 year old girl. Alas! Young love is so fickle. Forever does not last.
17 year old girl is upset. Wants revenge. Tells parents 18 year old boy had sex with her. 18 year old boy arrested under the "Jessica's Law".
18 year old boy convicted. Gets 10 year minimum mandatory sentence. Will be registered as a sexual predator upon release. His promising young life destroyed.
Is this a good law? It happened to one of my son's classmates in his senior year of high school.
I commend Patrick Leahy for standing against making this a national law.
Another strike against mandatory sentencing.
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181, bere.
"You're right - there are so many Subarus here it looks like one big car ad."
On expert advice we bought a Subaru Legacy a couple of years ago. (It turned out to be really sound advice.) In my neck of the woods there aren't many so I assumed it wasn't a very popular car. Then we went to Vermont....
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185, bere.
Thanks for the tip. I will pass it on.
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189, publius -
I've heard of other tragic stories like that. Why can't people just use common sense and judge cases on the individual facts pertaining to the case instead of passing "zero tolerance" laws, which is just another way of saying "zero common sense." I am so sorry about your son's classmate.
Unfortunately, Vermont is on the verge of passing another mandatory minimum sentence law. I believe it has not been voted on yet and hope it won't pass. Every case is different, and to use Jessica's Law in the case you cited is criminal. Or should be.
And to stray even further from whatever the original topic was, there's another case where a child, 11 years old, is being charged as an adult with murder. I think it's in Arizona. No matter what terrible thing an 11-year-old does, he is still not an adult. I simply do not understand what these people are thinking. This makes me so ill.
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Ref 179 allmymarbles
There is that book inside of you, again. Revolutions are never pretty. It can be a catharsis.
I read about 5 non-fiction books to every 1 novel. Clavell caught my attention years ago with "King Rat". I picked up "Whirlwind" just as a diversion. It drew me into further study of the Iran Revolution.
I will ghost it, if you do not want to write.
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publiusdetroit
I heard that story. In fact I was mentioning it just the other night. There cannot possibly be two such cases can there? How can laws be crafted so poorly? Or get to court? I think you had better move to Vermont.
bere54
At one time we had two Subarus; a Legacy and an Outback. We realized we really did not need two cars and so are down to one.
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193, publius.
"I will ghost it, if you do not want to write."
I was thinking of vignettes. Have you read my comments 93, 94, and 98? I have dozens more. Not all of them funny. But funny or sad, they may offer a better undstanding than would a treatise, and infinitely more readable. Collaboration might be a better idea. I presume you are a writer. Do you have any idea what I am?
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194, timewaits -
A lot of people here have two or more Subarus. I hear it's the best non-SUV four-wheel drive on the market. I however stand out like a sore thumb in my tiny Yaris, and I avoid driving on dirt roads during winter and mud season (when four-wheel drive is even more necessary). One winter a friend asked me to drive him to airport in exchange for having the use of his Outback while he was gone. I agreed. He slipped a disk in his back while off in Texas, had to have back surgery, and ended up being gone all winter. I felt really bad for him while I was tooling around in his fancy, sturdy Outback all winter, with heat and a windshield defroster (my only car at the time was a 1973 VW Bug). I sure enjoyed the luxury, while I was feeling so bad for my poor friend.
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193, publius.
"Revolutions are never pretty. It can be a catharsis."
I don't need a catharsis. I am not built that way.
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We love our outback - the most popular vehicle (after pickups) around here, for a reason. Even without studded tires!
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Ref 195 allmymarbles
My published works are of limited circulation. Primarily, In-house technical and training manuals. The kind of thing only us geeks curl up and read. I have one completed novel. It was my catharsis.
I have been writing almost every day since retiring this past august. Experimenting with style. I need to break out of the "Step 1; Step 2" form of tech writing.
Do I have any idea of what you are?
Yes. An interesting person with some extra-ordinary experiences.
I have read your postings 93, 94, and 98. That is why I say there is a book inside you.
I like the vignette idea.
Ghosting, collaboration, whatever. You have a story inside you that I think is important. I just want to read it. I think others will too.
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153. allmymarbles
"No way is it a new thing. The Afghans have been growing opium for decades."
they have been growing it for many years true but in smaller quantities, Hash was produced on a lot of that land. it still is but the economy promotes heroin not hash. I'm bias as hell on that one.( I think even the people from the town called simple can figure that out.) But the increase in production in this and the other areas of the middle and far east was due in part by the more severe penalties or more importantly greater profits per pound of opium. Not to mention a ikkle bit of encouragement when the Russians were there from our boys.
More acreage turned until the Taliban got there who for a tiny while started to decrease production , until they then needed some more dosh.
I say give them an economy . we want to sell the viagra. they should be able to sell their drugs.
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Oh and bere ,
I thought vermont was great.
nice area.
Gherkin free state
Pretty too.
Keep up the good work,good luck getting those two fugitives.
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Ref 194 timewaitsfornoman
I have heard of a couple other cases in the this State. The basic themes are pretty much the same. One had to do with a pregnancy. DNA testing was needed to determine the father. The parents of the minor female wanted the young man charged. Probably to cover their shame.
It is not unusual that a law connected to an emotional issue gets quickly written and rushed through legislation without thorough debate. It also can be a political poison pill to stand against the law, as we have noted by Magic using the rejection of the Jessica Law to slur the good citizens of Vermont.
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199, publius.
Well, I guess it is time to fess up. I am a non-fiction writer. I have been in publishing all my life. The last few years I have been writing feature articles, only one of them political. Like you I started out as a technical writer (which I found soul destroying). But once you are pigeon-holed there is no way you will be hired in any other capacity. It's like being a type-cast actor.
So rather than condemn myself to a safe life that I found uninteresting, I said to hell with it, and did what I always wanted to do - I packed up and went to the Middle East. I quit my job, gave up my rent-controlled apartment, said goodbye to my boyfriend, and never looked back. It is then my life began. My dream was no longer a dream and I immersed myself in cultures that had always fascinated me. Along the way I found markets for my writing to support my indulgence.
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202 publiusdetroit
I really do not know what to say. What is this poison pill? That the politicians will not be re-elected? That others will say bad things about your State?
If it has nothing to do with rape, I would send my son(s) into hiding. I'm serious.
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Ref 203 allmymarbles
I like your life.
Fortunately, I did not get pigeon-holed. I was the trouble-shooter. I worked for a corporation for 30 years without ever having a real title. I spent most of my time assigned to special projects that were going awry and needed someone to get them back on track and on budget. It was interesting enough, for a job.
But when the clock struck "mine", I went out to do what challenged and intrigued me. Some things on the crazy side. Like getting dropped off in the wilderness for two weeks in a pair of cut-off jeans, hiking boots, with a folding knife as my only kit. Or, being blind-folded and driven to a moonshine still to document a "shiner" for a local history group. Drinking vodka with a 98 year old woman to get her story of living in Joe Stalin's USSR while her husband worked in Russia for the Ford Motor Co. She knew Stalin personally. (She drank me under the table!)
Now I am cut free from the work-a-day life. I have been selling some articles to niche newspapers. It's a start.
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publius, Ms. Marbles, you should get together and
co-write a fictional novel set in Iran in 1979.
I was channel surfing the other night and caught
a few minutes of "Dr. Zhivago." You could
cross-pollinate it with "Laurence of Arabia" and
you would have a winner. One has snow,
the other sand, but both have trains.
So what if it was hack fiction? Michener would turn
over in his grave because he didn't think of it.
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p.s. to 206: Need I mention that Omar Sharif
was in both films? You could save production
costs on the pilot by cutting in cameo appearances
of him from both L of A and Dr. Z!
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Ref 204 timewaitsfornoman
Yes. A politician can fail to get re-elected by taking an unpopular stand on a emotion-charged, yet flawed legislation. The poison pill.
Someone like Vermont Senator Patrick Leahy has put his neck on the line several times challenging bad legislation on other emotional issues. He is a stalwart defender of the "Bill of Right" in our Constitution. Things like the "Patriot Act". If you vote against it, you must out to destroy the nation. Vote against the "Jessica Law", you must be a pervert.
Fortunately the majority of his constituents would rather have their rights protected and re-elect Senator Leahy.
Back to the "Jessica Law" and my son's classmate. Boyfriend and girlfriend admitted they had consensual sex with each other. That was used against him in his trial.
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203, publius.
To top it all I actually found someone crazy enough to marry me. Women who suffer heartburn at the thought of mortgages, and who smell the fires of hell at barbeques, are not prime marriage material. But there he was, and ultimately we had four nutty children to join our eventful life.
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206, guns.
"publius, Ms. Marbles, you should get together and co-write a fictional novel set in Iran in 1979."
You are one funny fella. Actually a non-fiction book would sound more fictional than fiction, except for non-plot aspects, that is. Non-fiction would have a large cast of bozos.
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St. Gunny and Ms. Marbles
Truth is stranger than fiction.
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173, publius.
Further to your mention of Clavell's book "Whirlwind."
I have enjoyed the two books of Clavell's that I have read and find him talented and riveting. I guess it is possible that he has written something worthwhile about the Iranian revolution. But I would ask if he ever lived there, or if he spoke the language. Otherwise his information would be second-hand and tinged with the prejudices of his English-speaking Iranian informants. Did they have an agenda?
Even observing an event can be misunderstood if you don't know the intent or what precipitated it. I remember a case of the Tehrani police manhandling a foreign reporter. It was all over the western papers and perported to be a muzzling the press. It is true he was manhandled. What was never mentioned (perhaps unknown, or more likely suppressed) was that he had groped a young Iranian woman right out in public.
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211, publius.
"Truth is stranger than fiction."
And more disorganized and inept.
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Ms. Marbles, publius, no epic is complete without
Scarlett O'Hara in some form. Did they have
them in Tehran?
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214, guns.
Well, they had plenty of scarlet women. It was an equal-opportunity society.
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Guns, you would be surprised at the extent of infidelity. Not only that, toleration was not uncommon. What would shame a man most was his wife having an affair with someone of a lower class. A class higher than his would be easier to deal with.
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Ref 209 allmymarbles
I met a woman that shared my spirit of adventure. We were married on a sailboat by a charter captian/preacher. We had three years of adventures together with our son before she went to the Persian Gulf war. She was a nurse in the Michigan Army National Guard.
My lovely wife with the twinkle in her eye and a winning smile came home without the twinkle nor the smile. She suffered from Post-truamatic Stress as an ICU nurse. Her EVAC medical unit treated many hundreds of Iragi POWs terribly shreaded from the bombing and shelling. She chose self-medication over counselling.
Two very strange years later, we divorced.
I dusted off the lost dreams, and went on with my life; helping our son understand why his mother was always so angry and drank herself to sleep every night. He was three years old when she left for Saudi. He never knew the woman with the twinkle in her eye and the winning smile. Only the woman filled with anger.
I still work with veterans and their families. The Iraq/Afghanistan veterans and their families are suffering terrible problems from the multiple deployments.
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217, publius.
That is a pitiful story and I am grieve for you, your son and your ex-wife. Three lives have been irreparably damaged. We have to end these stupid wars. But I know we won't.
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#217 Publius
A beautifully written but sad post. It seems that people who keep crowing about 'our troops' are the first who want to send them in the line of fire; whilst those who support peace are seen as 'not supporting the troops'. Some tragic Swiftian irony!
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ref #208
than why is Partisian Patrick proposing a Truth Commission to go after his political enemies.
Why was he so uncoperative in working with the White House during the Bush and Reagan years
Back to Jessica's law which you have not understood, do you approve of VT judges allowing Pedophiles to have suspended sentances because they are misnuderstood?
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220 Magic
Regarding Jessica's Law, it seems you have misunderstood other posts on the this blog.
No one is suggesting paedophiles get suspended sentences etc. The problem with the law, like so much legislation drafted in haste to respond to highly emotive situations, is that it is too black and white, when shades of grey are required.
The ridiculous idea of prosecuting the 18 year old following a consentual act with a 17 year old during a 2 year relationship is an example of where rigidity of law can be counter-productive. It has been said that "the law is an ass".
Stating that the law is flawed does not equate to supporting suspended sentences to paedophiles ..... just to a desire for a better definition of paedophile.
Incidentally, it amazes me that the age of consent is still 18 years in the USA. Another example of the total failure of prohibition as a social tool.
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217 publius
A sad sad story. My thoughts are with you, your son and your ex-wife.
I always enjoy your posts, well thought out, sincere and rational of argument. You show a tremendous strength of character, for both sharing this, and for continuing to work with vets and their families. I doubt that I should be able to contain the anger, were I in your position.
Respect.
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For those mispresenting Jessica's Law.
It does not go after two underage teenager having consenutial sex.
It goes after adults who molest and sexually asault children.
Children not 16-18 year olds.
Stop listing to the lies of the ALCU
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223. At 12:07pm on 24 Feb 2009, MagicKirin wrote:
For those mispresenting Jessica's Law.
It does not go after two underage teenager having consenutial sex."
That is of course true since under age teenagers cannot by definition have consensual sex.
"It goes after adults who molest and sexually asault children.
Children not 16-18 year olds.
Stop listing to the lies of the ALCU"
Oh so a 16 year old is an adult now? Wow you obviously have no problem with teenage pregnancies then? These are "adult" pregnancies in your eyes?
Don't know what job you do but it palinly does not involve too much thinking
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Magic 222
Please read my post again.
I did not say it "goes after" teenagers having consensual sex.
Evidently the purpose of the law is to protect children from predatory pederasts.
However if, in its inflexibility, the law also affects teenagers having consensual sex, then I again assert that the law is faulty and should be ammended to allow for some flexibility in these more "grey areas".
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221. At 11:00am on 24 Feb 2009, RomeStu wrote:
220 Magic
Regarding Jessica's Law, it seems you have misunderstood other posts on the this blog.
No one is suggesting paedophiles get suspended sentences etc. The problem with the law, like so much legislation drafted in haste to respond to highly emotive situations, is that it is too black and white, when shades of grey are required.
The ridiculous idea of prosecuting the 18 year old following a consentual act with a 17 year old during a 2 year relationship is an example of where rigidity of law can be counter-productive. It has been said that "the law is an ass"."
There is rarely any sense when it comes to the law and sex in the anglo-saxon world.
Run a group of children down in a car while drunk and sometimes it is not even a stiff sentence.
Burn a whole family while trying to carry out an insurance fraud and the same applies.
But be seen taking photos of one's own children at a swimming hole and all hell breaks lose.
Plainly child abuse is a foul crime. But the obssession with sex which seems to transfix the tabloid reading public distorts the whole issue.
The UK recently witnessed the unedifying story of a child beaten slowly to death despite being seen by doctors etc. There was no sexual abuse, just hideous cruelty, so the case was somehow "missed".
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Allmymarbles,
Thank you for all the wonderful descriptions of life in Iran. It is unfortunate that our media does not take the time - or interest - to provide the kind of real life detail you have given us because, if they did, I suspect our opinion of that country and the Muslim culture would be very different from the mindset that fuels our aggressive and arrogant behavior towards them. Then again, I would not be surprised if that is precisely why the focus is strictly on examples of cruelty and cultural or ideological backwardness.
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# 226 Simon21 - “It has been said that "the law is an ass"”
This line is much quoted. I always find the source of the quote amusing. It’s from Charles Dickens' Oliver Twist.
When the character Mr. Bumble is informed that "the law supposes that your wife acts under your direction". Mr. Bumble replies "If the law supposes that… the law is a [sic] ass—a idiot. If that’s the eye of the law, the law is a bachelor; and the worst I wish the law is that his eye may be opened by experience—by experience."
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217 publiusdetroit
Oh! you must know how terribly sorry I am to hear that. No one ever seems to consider the damage and fall out these wars have.
About fifteen years ago while in Florida I noted how many forty-something American men had tattoos. Strange. Then of course it hit me. They were Vietnam Vets. And I looked at them with different eyes and thought of all they must have gone through, how it had changed their lives. Daily walking reminders. I believe I have said before my brother was a Vietnam Vet. It ultimately killed him. But I don't need counselling, I just need these wars to stop.
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220 MagicKirin
"Why was he so uncoperative in working with the White House during the Bush and Reagan years"
Is he a Republican? Is it not his job to present opposing views. Is that not why the people of Vermont elected him? If he agreed with everything Bush/Reagan proposed you might as well have a one party state. Is that what you are suggesting?
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Re my posting # 227 – mysteriously “This comment has been referred to the moderators”
So here’s an edited version.
# 164 MagicKirin
“Although I like vacationing in VT./Your State govt is known for…….a disgusting partsian (sic) fraud named Pat Leahy”
# 171 MagicKirin
"But personal attacks are the last refuge of a scoundral [sic]"
QED
I suppose I should thank MK, as I didn't know much about Leahy till he mentioned him. I've now read his bio on Wiki. He appears to be liberal and progressive, and willing to take a stand. However, since he takes stands on positions Magic doesn't share, this automatically makes him a 'hater' or 'partisan' in MagicWorld.
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203, allmymarbles -
I am so envious. I have been trying to get published for almost ten years, but I write fiction and nobody's ever heard of me so though I get glowing letters, they're all rejections.
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A purpose of Free Speech is that one is suppose to listen to opposing views. Might make one change their position, at the very least be better informed. And not as john-In-Dublin said previously, "La, la, la, I can't hear you." (Which was very amusing by the way.)
I must say I am eternally grateful that I grew up in a liberal household. We were encouraged to form our own opinions, not "toe the party line."
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bere54
Try this link.
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Ref 220 MagicKirin
"Jessica's Law" was enacted in Florida after a 12 year old girl was raped and brutally murdered by a sexual predator with prior convictions for child rape.
An unpardonable, barbaric act upon an innocent child. The facts in this case make it an argument in favor of the death penalty. (I support the death penalty in this particular case.)
Unfortunately, the good people of Florida acted in emotion-charged haste demanding a better level of protection for their children. The legislature, eager to show their indignation against this horrid crime, created a flawed law in their haste. Cooler heads would have looked at all the ramifications and constructed numbers of scenerios to test the wording of the law prior to enactment. However, mob mentality circumvented good judgement. National media pressure kept the level of hysteria high.
The Florida legislature had no intent to create a law that some heartbroken, teenage girl could use against her former boyfriend in an act of childish revenge; but that is what the legislature ended up doing.
A flawed law created with the greatest of good intentions, is still a flawed law that creates injustice. Mandatory sentences only made the flawed law a greater travesty of justice.
Compounding the great injustice is that the flawed, Florida law was enacted in many other states almost word for word.
Our children do need protection against predators. "Jessica's Law" is not the answer.
Do I support the Vermont judge(s) who pardon Pedophiles? I cannot answer that on the information you are providing. Give me the case(s) citation(s) and I will be happy to review the facts without making a hasty judgement. I have access to a law library and experience researching law.
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208, publius -
You're partly right about Leahy - most of his constituents are very opposed to the "Patriot" Act, but he ended up voting for it under pressure that did not come from us. We have forgiven him for that error. One thing that can never be questioned about Patrick Leahy: He is a gentleman. He is also guarded by a Secret Service agent disguised by a pink tie. He was here a few months ago for the grand opening of our Welcome Center, and I wondered aloud to a friend about the hovering man in the pink tie, and she said, "Notice the bulge under the jacket." Ah yes.
What is the age of consent in Michigan? If the girl admitted it was consensual, why did this not get the charges dismissed?
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publius, my heart goes out to you. I have seen
this many times. The vets from Vietnam and
Gulf War I were treated very poorly when they
came home, and some never really did.
It would be nice if the world was a more
peaceful place, or if we just didn't have the
job of being World Policemen. I have a feeling
that we're entering an era where that kind of
job is no longer in demand because the bad
guys are terrorists with suicide bomb vests
or corporations that offshore their operations
so that they don't have to worry about pollution
standards, and somehow I don't see how
aircraft carriers and divisions of marines can
help solve that kind of problem.
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Why can't you folks just publish on Amazon,
via Kindle?
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235, timewaits -
I've been looking into print-on-demand. There's a bookstore (independent of course) in southern Vermont that has a sort of machine for this, and they assist with all the ISBN, copyright, etc. stuff. I have all the information, but have to figure out how to design a cover, re-format manuscripts to be turned into pdfs, and then try to summon up the courage to go forward, and then there's the selling! I am a writer, not a salesperson, and while I would have no problem pushing someone else's book (as long as it was good), I am very bashful about my my own. So I have to overcome this reticence. Fortunately, Vermont apparently has more independent bookstores per capita than any other state, and most of them are quite happy to give shelf space to self-publishers.
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236, publius -
I don't have the case number for you to look up, but apparently what that Kirin fellow is referring to is a case that occurred a couple of years ago. A judge sentenced a child molester to (I think) some kind of probation because the law at the time did not provide for the molester to get treatment in prison, so he would have been in prison with no treatment and then released to molest more children. The judge felt prevention of future crimes against children was paramount, and was angry that the guy would not get any treatment, so basically what he did was sentence the guy to treatment instead of just punishment with almost guaranteed recidivism to follow. I believe the law has now been changed to ensure treatment in prison, and I'm pretty sure this guy is now in prison, getting treatment.
This case made it to the AM talk radio circuit and was twisted in a really malicious way (with no mention of the actual facts) and the judge got a lot of death threats. It sounds as if Kirin has heard only the talk radio version. There was never any idea of letting the perpetrator go free, no suspended sentence. The judge's main concern was to keep him from re-committing.
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publius, addendum - As I recall, what the guy had done (and I can't remember what it was) did not fall under some criteria of "seriousness" to qualify him for treatment in prison under the law at that time. I don't want to give the impression that Vermont was not providing treatment for any pedophiles in prison.
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lol 117 marbles well said.
and are we going to provide skin cancer treatment for all those people who throw the burquas away.
Practicality is the basis of many customs. Sometimes they get wrapped in religion,here is a clear case of practicality.
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Sorry, my reference should have been #236.
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Thank you; all who have expressed their sorrow and support for my child, ex-wife, and myself.
Members of the Vietnam Veterans of America offered support and direction when my wife returned from the Persian Gulf War. They stongly encouraged both of us to go to the Veterans Administration "Vet Center" that their group (and others) struggled to create for the treatment of Post-truamatic Stress Disorders.
I went to the center and learned about PTSD, along with how to deal with the the manifestations that would occur as a result of PTSD. My wife refused to seek any outside help. The mere mention of the Vet Center would launch her into rage.
My challenge became one to help our son understand why his mother could not express love; why she drank heavily; why she flew into rages; why she would disappear for long periods.
I succeeded in that. My son is a very well adjusted, cheerful, loving, responsible young man of 21. He has bridged the gap with his mother that developed as a child. They have an improved relationship. He understands the limits their relationship will always have unless his mother admits her PTSD and gets help coping with it. He does not try to get her to seek help.
I fully accepted that I cannot "save" my ex-wife from herself many years ago. I have always led an interesting, enjoyable life; and chose to continue in that way. I remember the good times; forgive the bad times; and look forward to each new day.
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245, publius -
I admire your balance, and your ability to accept and forgive. I wish I could achieve that instead of lying awake nights worrying over "what-ifs." The older I get the more I seem to torture myself with thoughts of how I might have changed things, or prevented things, or fixed things, if only this and if only that. My personality is that of a worrier, even about events past. I envy you.
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Re: Jessica's Law
I remember 'Brass Eye' - a satirical comedy on Channel 4 in the UK - ran an episode called 'The Paedophile Special'. It made fun of the media regarding paedophiles and the attacks the programme makers received was nearly as funny as the programme!
Video clip here.
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more regarding pervs
Gherkin what do you make of kids showing their knickers in front of huge audiences?
Seems pretty pervy to me.
But in the states it's called "Cheerleading".
technically if you like it for any thing other than the gymnastic quality it could be called pornography . If it was a high school match that would be Child porn.
Have you ever filmed your kid (if you have one) cheerleading?
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245 bere54
Useless for me to say there is no point in doing that. I occasionally find myself doing the same, and believe it is a "downside" of getting older. (Please note the "e r ")
But it is pointless and only leads to more of the same. So I replace them with "Happy thoughts" and remind myself, if different how do I know I would prefer the outcome. Possibly it would be worse.
Many years ago one of my sisters became fixated on Nuclear War. It seemed to dominate her thoughts, not that she was doing anything other than thinking about it! My response, "What? It'll be over in a second, you will have no time to worry." Can't imagine why she did not find that comforting!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"The latest New York Times/CBS News poll gave him a job approval rating of 63 percent, about 10 points higher than either Bush or former President Bill Clinton at this stage. A Washington Post-ABC News poll had 68 percent of Americans approving of Obama's job performance."
Whether you like or are suspicious of Obama, the USA seems to like the man's work.
I never liked imperialist Presidents... As time goes on, I have to say I like the Democrats more and more. Just hope they don't disabuse me of the notion.
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241,
As all good lawmakers should be. You want to REFORM the criminal types, otherwise they just wait out their turn in jail, only to begin anew once released.
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249, timewaits -
I do like your solution to fretting about nuclear war. My solution to drowning in my own inner angst is to listen to the news as I fall asleep at night, so I can fret about the state of the world instead. Guaranteed to make me wake up feeling like I've got a hangover!
Regarding the obsession with pedophilia in this country: Back in Virginia when my daughter was in 3rd grade, out of curiosity I read the curriculum for what they called "Family Life Education." The unit on "Good and Bad Touching" was quite startling. They were going to teach my child that "bad" touching was any place that was covered by her bathing suit. A girl's one-piece suit covers a lot of territory. So a young child was being told that a pat on the tummy was "bad." A pat on the bottom would be "bad" for both girls and boys. Imagine how confusing and scary this would be for young children. Mommy is bad because she patted my tushie? What idiot came up with that, I wonder. If they can't be more explicit, they shouldn't teach it at all.
Virginia had an "opt out" system for this program. I opted my daughter out, feeling that it could very well cause harm and that I was obviously much more capable of teaching her what she needed to know about this subject. I've always wondered how many kids went to the teacher or school counselor to report they'd been the victims of bad touching.
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re. 245 bere54
I used to fret over things like you describe, but I find I no longer do that and I don't really know why. Maybe I've just reached a point in my life where I'm ready to let go of some of those memories, or maybe my memory isn't as sharp as it used to be. Wouldn't that be a left-handed benefit of getting older? And I can look at my life now and tell myself that whatever stupid things I've done in the past or bad things that that have happened to me, I'm still here and things are really not so bad.
What you describe sounds basically like mild depression, although a counselor would have to make that kind of diagnosis. I have problems with winter depression, and I find that staying active and keeping my mind engaged helps a lot. I build musical instruments as a hobby, and that is demanding enough to force me to concentrate. Find yourself something like that that you can dig into. You can have a surprising amount of enjoyment sketching with just pencil and paper. Even having a supply of good books to read helps. I figure I'm getting my tax dollars' back just in my use of the public library. Anything to keep you from sitting and obsessing on negatives. Even a brisk walk in the sunshine helps. We've had an unusually sunny winter here, and that has made a tremendous difference for me. Just don't sit and stew. Been there. That eats you away from the inside.
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Magic Gherkin
I have to say here that I sometimes may give the impression that you are some strange creature.
true, but I have to give you some credit.
Though I disagree about the Unions, those leaders like Tutu and Mandela(oh not to mention Kofi)and the rights and wrongs of Israel and Jessica, I have still got to give you credit for being Universally interested in the subjects that arise here (with or without Justins prompts).
I am saying this because we often get some person turn up on one issue.
as Peter on the other thread has.
They debate one agenda and one posting with no interest it seems in any other discussions.
Somehow a little trollish it seems.
I also suspect that many of them are the same person.
Their style of never answering etc .
So I commend you for always speaking your mind and being broad minded enough to read more than one posting board.
Keep it up
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253 bere54
"listen to the news" That does not sound like a good idea to me. How often do we hear good news? I suggest you read a book. Read Colin Dexter, he likes the Oxford comma, or not. Now I don't remember! Well you will have to read to find out.
"bad touching" That sounds like it could be so confusing for children at a young age. They generally accept what they are being taught, especially by the "teacher." Some of them might become frightened to put on a bathing suit. I can picture myself, Ohhh, I'm in a bathing suit, must be bad touching time!! And my parents being thoroughly perplexed.
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ref #254
That is the lie Judge produced when confronted by Fox News.
The truth is the Judge has a history of not imposing punishments for crimes.
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223, bere.
" am so envious. I have been trying to get published for almost ten years, but I write fiction and nobody's ever heard of me so though I get glowing letters, they're all rejections."
Get an agent. If your work is really good it doesn't matter if no one has heard of you.
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250 lol GnR
If they all say "like" all the time I am not sure I want to.
OOOHHHHH I see what you were saying.
See at boarding school they used to take us on away fixtures to girls schools.And we were given alcohol.
but that was after a lecture on CONDOMS.
Of course they were not the same day that would be condoning an immoral act from the catholic schools point of view.
I was just pointing out that there are some pretty mixed signals from SOCIETY (not the victims). And that sometimes innocents can be made to look bad.
like Bere said about the tushie pat .
Having said that I suspect that if the true figures on incestuous pedophile (cousins and uncles) was truly known there would be shock all round.
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247 dceiler
well remembered. good article there.
Good points about sexualisation in the media.
I understand the revulsion to these pervs they see on the news. but how many are ignoring the home front there?
Focused on the external evil not the evil within.
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228, saintD.
"Thank you for all the wonderful descriptions of life in Iran."
There is a very special book titled "Hajji Baba of Isfahan." It was written in the early 19th century by an Englishman. I read it before I first went to Iran and it was the best introduction I could have had. The temperament and the proclivities of the Persians have not changed, even though they now use IPods. The characterizations in the book were so accurate that Iranians refused to believe it was written by a foreigner. It is also very funny.
The stories I write are absolutely accurate, with no adjustments or hidden agendas. It is life as I lived it among the Iranians. If I dwell on the humorous it is because humor is an outstanding trait of the Iranian people.
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228, saintD.
I take back what I said about agendas. But they are not hidden. I feel I have to rectify misconceptions about Iran that are propagated by the government and the media.
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Barack Obama needs Canadian support. Afghanistan is a losing proposition. The region is over-taken by Traffickers of illicit narcotics and depraved sexuality. Obama should consider that militarization of Afghanistan will only massacre innocent Arabs. Kabul must develop real strategies and tactics. Drug Dealers are subtle, smooth, and lethal.
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254, timohio -
I immerse myself in books; unfortunately I have a habit of buying them, but mostly from secondhand stores. I have stacks of to-be-read piles next to my bed and go through phases - lately my phase has been British mysteries by women (though now that I volunteer in a non-profit secondhand bookshop I've discovered good ones by men too) written mostly in the first half of the 20th century before blood and gore and excruciatingly disturbing details of serial killing came into fashion in novels. Then there is the Virago series of under-appreciated female writers of the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries, which I collect and fortunately forget so can re-read them (another "left-handed" benefit of getting older - and by the way, as a left-handed person, I wonder when that "slur" will meet its demise?). And I'm looking forward to re-reading all of Dickens and Trollope. This is how I survive.
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240, bere.
If you are talking about vanity press, that is not the way to go. You need a publisher for marketing. It is not something you can do yourself. Also, everybody needs an editor, even the best of us. You cannot provide that service for yourself.
A few months ago I read the manuscript of a published author and made extensive suggestions for revision. I did not see the final draft which he presented to his agent. The agent made further recommendtions. Expert help is invaluable.
As a final note, vanity press does not have the best reputation, the implication being that the book was not good enough to be taken up by professionals. This may not be ture, but it doesn't have to be.
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243, happy.
"And are we going to provide skin cancer treatment for all those people who throw the burquas away. Practicality is the basis of many customs. Sometimes they get wrapped in religion,here is a clear case of practicality."
The history of the burka, or the chador, or veil, has nothing to do with Islam. It was a practical protection from desert sun and sandstorms. With the advent of religion it became institutionalized and its form exaggerated. All people of the desert use some means of covering themselves - that includes the men. The kafiyahs that desert men wear are draped over their faces in a sandstorm. I was once caught in a sandstorm in Saudi Arabia. I took my chiffon scarf, pulled it down over my face and tied theends around my neck. I did this intinctively.
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257 - Ah, you get your factoids from Faux News. That explains why you have no facts. This would be amusing except for the fact that you are slandering with lies a good man who is nothing as the right-wing faux news portrayed him. They kept "quoting" him as having said "I don't believe in punishment" when in fact he said no such thing. I have heard the transcript, which was read on a radio program here in Vermont in order to set the record straight. Have you read the transcript of the sentencing? No, or you would not continue to spout those lies. Bill O'Reilly, whom I'm sure you admire, lied over and over again about the judge, if you want to talk about lies. The record has been set straight about this case but you obviously are not interested in the truth if it conflicts with what your Faux News heroes say.
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258, allmymarbles
I don't how much experience you have with fiction publishing but these days whether the work is really good has nothing to do with it. I had an agent (no longer, because he dropped dead) who was terribly frustrated that he couldn't sell my first novel because he believed in it so much, but he and everyone else has told me for years how difficult it is to sell fiction unless the author is well known or has some "hook." I have a friend who can get anything published because she has a famous name. Her editor won't even look at my work, despite her advocating it. That's just the way it is, particularly when your writing does not fit into a "genre." I mean, where on earth would they shelve it in the bookstore if there's no category?
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259, happy, as far as incest goes, there are certain
people who should be shot a few times in quick
succession so that God can get a good look at their
return address.
I say, let's all kick in for a few stamps.
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265, allmymarbles -
My manuscripts have already gone through extensive editing and revision via my agent, before he died of course; he was also a book doctor, which apparently they all have to be these days. Print-on-demand is not the same as vanity press. I think you may not be aware of the move to self-publishing and print-on-demand and web publishing these days. I am constantly being told that old-fashioned publishing houses are going the way of the dodo because they are mostly huge corporations that are only interested in the few books they know will be best-sellers. Even editors and agents are becoming disillusioned with mainstream publishing.
Vermont is a magnet for writers and I've had much advice from published fiction writers in this area. They all say pretty much the same thing. They also say that they are not given the marketing support they used to expect and have to do a lot of it themselves anyway.
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"Barack Obama needs Canadian support. Afghanistan is a losing proposition. The region is over-taken by Traffickers of illicit narcotics and depraved sexuality. "
It sounds like Eastenders.
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allmymarbles - addendum -
Also, I don't know how much modern fiction you read, but it is evident from what I have tried reading (and this goes for non-fiction too) that publishers are downsizing their editorial departments. The mistakes are pervasive and ghastly. Which is one reason I avoid recently-published books. There is no excuse for having a character leave on a long trip and then mysteriously reappear two pages later in a scene he just left. Or for a character to put on his running shoes and then a few paragraphs later pull on his socks. Any good editor (and I do freelance editing) would have caught these.
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268, bere.
Sometimes a perfectly good novel is not marketable because it is out of siync with the times. That is one of the problems that crops up. It is obvious that it is easier for someone with a name to get published, but writers die or dry up and the empty places have to be filled by new people.
Did you agent ever ask you to make revisions? Did he do a proper critique?
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270, bere.
It is true that I am out-of-touch with developments post-vanity press. Guilty!
Have you ever worked as a writer? Most novelists I know didn't break into writing with a novel. They slogged along maybe writing for an encyclopedia or a trade magazine. Some started out as copywriters, or publicists, or copy editors. They wrote their novels on the side, meanwhile learning their trade and paying their bills. I can't think f one who was an overnight success. It is not an easy profession.
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re. 264. bere54:
Having books available is good, and the volunteering is good, but it helps to get out and get some moderate exercise. That's why I mentioned a brisk walk. I understand that you are writing, but a creative outlet that isn't tied to books would be helpful, too.
I work with computers and do web design and similar things for a living, so at the end of the day the last thing I want to do is mess with computers. This blog is about the limit. I've put up blogs for my extended family and similar projects, but it really isn't fun. It's nice to go home and do something with my hands other than keyboarding. I started taking music lessons in my early 50s because I wanted to do something different. It's humbling to be back at the beginner stage in anything at that age, but it keeps my brain from rotting. And maybe by the time I'm 80 I'll be able to play decently. If my hands haven't stiffened up completely by then :-)
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275, timohio -
I do walk most days, more than I drive my car. Until it got all snowy and icy outside, I was doing a long exercise walk most mornings (I used to be a runner, 5 to 6 miles a day, and can't do without exercise), but until it warms up a bit I get most of my exercise while doing errands. It's difficult to walk aerobically around here in the winter because the ice is so treacherous.
A few years ago I decided to take up the mandolin. Man, did I work at that. Finally realized I wasn't going to get anywhere, so went back to messing around with my Appalachian dulcimer, which even a tone-deaf talentless person such as I can make music with.
But nothing beats a good book for fun, relaxation, and edification. A book, a bowl of popcorn, a cup of tea. That's the life.
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Interesting article on a visit to Iran from The Times [of London]
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel/destinations/middle_east/article5768065.ece
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Ref 270 bere54
Electronic publishing is still an infant. It is growing and developing. It took a Napster to change the music industry. I think the major challenges are how does the author get paid and how is copyright protected?
I am learning a lot by submitting to small, niche newspapers. Dipping my toes in the water. The niche papers seem to go for my off-beat writing, ala Joe Six-pack.
I stated in an earlier post that I have been experimenting with style. I submit articles in different styles to see how they are received. Feed back has been good. Every now and again there is a check.
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Ref 276 bere54
Snowshoes! If you like to walk, you should find snowshoeing the thing to do in the winter. It is easy as walking. The new style aluminum shoeshoes are light and manueverable. Most come with built-in ice cleats so you do not slip. Cross-country ski poles provide stability.
We have had a good base of snow with frequent snow showers all winter long here in lower Michigan. I have been having the best winter in years. The exertion keeps you warm. Dress in layers. Remember to carry water with you. You dehydrate fast in the winter.
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278, publius -
I have published a few articles in a area monthly paper, but it's not my forte. I write in spurts, when I am possessed of a story I want to tell, and in this way I have written three novels. I will write for ten hours a day (not counting the notes I scribble - I always carry a notebook and have been known to pull off the road to write down a particularly good thought or sentence before it vanishes) for months and months, and then once it is finally finished, revised, edited, revised again and the agent (who is no more) is (was) satisfied, and sending it out to publishers, I may not write like that again for several years. It's not the way most writers write, but that's how it works for me. I don't write to be writing, I write when I have something I want to say or a story I want to tell.
If I try to write when I'm not interested in the subject, what comes out is ghastly. I've never done technical writing and would not want to. The only non-fiction I've written besides the few pieces that were published is travel essays for a collection that I don't feel motivated to finish since I have no agent. But it's nice to know that someone is getting a check for writing now and then.
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re. 276. bere54:
Oh, Appalachian dulcimers are wonderful instruments. I've built and repaired a few and played them badly. Somehow, just fooling around with one is just relaxing, though. Mandolins, on the other hand, seem really tough--all those strings in such a small space. If you can lay hands on a banjo, give that a try. All I can do on one is a couple of chords, but it's still fun. Even if you can't play them very well, it still sounds joyous. It's hard not to smile listening to a banjo.
re. 280
Like publius, I've written as part of my job--mostly educational stuff. Not exciting, but I get some satisfaction if a well-written piece helps someone learn.
It sounds like you would be a natural for a blog of your own. Take a look at blogger.com. If nothing else, it's an outlet. If you develop a following, that's something to take to a publisher. It's no different than writing a column, or being an essayist. And personally, I enjoy the craft of writing. I suspect you do too, because you write very well.
re. 279. publiusdetroit:
I've wondered about snowshoes. I've tried cross-country skiing, but decided I didn't have the coordination. All that work and no forward motion. I have asthma, though, and need to be careful about exertion in cold weather. Mainly I wait for spring.
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re. 263. Steve-Beacon:
"Obama should consider that militarization of Afghanistan will only massacre innocent Arabs."
That would be highly unlikely in Afghanistan, I should think. The majority of the inhabitants aren't Arab. Muslim, yes. Arab, no. Same in Iran.
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Justin:
I think that most everyone involved were winners in President Obama's first trip to Ottawa....
~Dennis Junior~
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Ref 281 timohio
Snowshoes require a little more exertion than walking on dry pavement; but not much more. You might try renting a pair. I don't know if you have an REI nearby. They have rentals.
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280, bere.
I am a terrible procrastinator. If it were not for deadlines I might not have accomplished much of anything. I have found myself absolutely not in the mood and devoid of stirring ideas (uninspired, as some would say), but have had to sit down at my computer and type away because a deadline was closing in on me. You would think the article, or whatever, would turn out badly, but that is not the case. Something kicks in somewhere. Is it discipline, experience, obligation? I don't know. Probably all three.
That is not to say that, sans obligation or deadling, I am never impelled to write something I feel strongly about. This blog is a good example, as is a project I am working on. However, I would accomplish the latter more quickly, and possibly with more verve, if I had a deadline.
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263, Steve.
"Afghanistan is a losing proposition. The region is over-taken by Traffickers of illicit narcotics and depraved sexuality. Obama should consider that militarization of Afghanistan will only massacre innocent Arabs. Kabul must develop real strategies and tactics. Drug Dealers are subtle, smooth, and lethal."
Afghan drug dealers are not ghetto gang members. The farmers grow the poppies and a wholesaler buys them. Plain old everyday business. And what do you mean by "depraved sexuality"? is there something exciting going on that I don't know about?
As mentioned by timohio, Afghans are not Arabs. I might add that they do not even speak a semitic language. Most of the country speaks Farsi, or languages related to Farsi, an unrelated language family.
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281, timohio.
"I have asthma, though, and need to be careful about exertion in cold weather."
So do I, and I discovered something very pure and simple that helps it - pantothenic acid, vitamin B5, a natural anti-inflammatory.
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272, bere.
Yes, I have noticed the deterioration, but there are still some very fine novels out there. The 'No. 1, Ladies Dective Agency" series is one, as are the early Evanovich (sp?) Stephanie Plum books. What horrifies me is what has happened to The New York Times. I find grammatical errors, incorrectly used words, and Short, who has taken over the crossword, is no Maleska. He makes mistakes. Years ago it was impossible to find any sort of error in that paper. It was a standard for fine English. And listen to those ignorant talking heads. They have a serious problem with our language.
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278, publius.
"Electronic publishing is still an infant. It is growing and developing."
But there will always be a place for books. You cannot read yourself to sleep with a computer. Or follow a recipe. And when the power goes off, you still have something to read.
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285, 288 allmymarbles -
I wrote a piece on deadline for a local paper, about a small alternative high school. I struggled over it and thought the end product was flat, boring, but the editor/publisher loved it, the school director loved it, other people complimented me on it - I still don't know if they were just being polite or if my judgment was wrong. Perhaps it was just that my normal writing style is rather loose and frivolous and I had to dampen that and keep the piece more "journalistic."
I have read the Ladies' Detective Agency and Stephanie Plum books (or rather, I've listened to them on tape while exercising) and enjoyed them immensely. Both series are very witty. I didn't start doing the NY Times crossword until after Maleska's day so can't compare.
281, timohio -
Yep, that mandolin was a killer. My dulcimer has wooden tuning pegs so if I just manage to tune it I feel a great sense of accomplishment.
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289, allmymarbles -
Actually, you can follow a recipe on line if you have a laptop to perch on the kitchen counter, and you don't have to use a rock to hold it open at your page. But I do hope we will always have "real" books. I at least will always have them, even if I have to read the same ones over and over and over again. I cannot read a screen for very long at a time.
If you think the NY Times is bad (and I agree with you there) you should see our local daily (NOT the one I have written for). A recent article mentioned how someone's interest was "peaked," (and that's the least of their errors). Too many people rely on spellcheck, which is not going to catch those bloopers.
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290, bere.
I think the advantage of deadlines and writing in a rush is that the result is more spontaneous and lively. At least it is for me.
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291, happy.
"that weedy substance does have an effect on it (asthma). a positive effect."
I have never tried it. Perhaps I will.
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292 bere54
"interest was "peaked,"
Ok, I'm joking but maybe their interest had reached a peak, or was feeling poorly!
Reminds me of the statement in my mother's local paper, "There will be no weather today."
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281, timohio.
The amount is 200mg daily, by the way. Who would have thought of using a vitamin!
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287. allmymarbles:
I'll have to give vitamin B5 a try.
290. bere54:
A light coat of paste wax helps the pegs turn smoothly. And you should always start by twisting down before tuning up. And seat the peg with a little nudge after twisting it. Keep the instrument in its case when you're not playing it. That buffers any changes from temperature and humidity. Pity me with 11 gut strings to tune with wooden pegs. Sometimes the first 20 minutes of my music lesson are taken up with my teacher and me tuning up.
But I like wooden pegs. I turn my own on a little tabletop lathe. If your pegs are ebony, try to switch them for something like boxwood or rosewood. Ebony is traditional on violins, but it's really not suitable for tuning pegs. It swells with humidity (jamming the peg in the hole) and it contains silica, which grinds the sides of the peg holes.
291. happylaze:
I decided in college that having an asthma attack in the middle of a roomful of stoned people was not a good idea. And sucking anything into my lungs other than clear air just doesn't appeal. I'm not against it; it just doesn't appeal.
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297, timohio.
"I decided in college that having an asthma attack in the middle of a roomful of stoned people was not a good idea.."
I was at a party with people we had been doing business with. I knew them fairly well so couldn't understand why they sounded so vague and dumb and sat around with silly smiles. Did they mutate when the sun went down? I found out later that everyone had been smoking pot. I had never used drugs and this idiot display reinforced my non-habit.
But I am wondering that if a substance is used for a specific medical purpose, does it still have the same effect as if taken for recreation? I once took morphine for a serious ear infection. I went to work as usual and it was a day just like any other. I had no pain whatoever, and there were no side effects. If I try weed and it allays the asthma, will I also not suffer the effects that are said to go with it? This is something I want to find out. I don't need pot to make me goofy; I can manage that all on my own.
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Ref 299 allmymarbles
Are you sure you did not suffer any side effects? Or were your co-workers all wondering, "What's going on with Ms. Marbles today?". The people who were at the party probably thought they were acting their usual selves.
I am afraid you will look and act stoned even if you are using cannabis for true medical therapy.
At least that's what my brother tells me. I mean. I would never...
He inhales. It's...ah...for his gout. Yeah! That's it! Gout.
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300, publius.
"Are you sure you did not suffer any side effects? Or were your co-workers all wondering, 'What's going on with Ms. Marbles today?'. The people who were at the party probably thought they were acting their usual selves."
In those days I didn't know about drugs or side effects and so was not on the lookout for them not being there. I remember thinking it was amazing that a small pill could remove such pain and I could do my work. (It was my first professional job and I was very excited about it.)
Some years later, when I knew a lot more about medicine, I underwent some minor oral surgery. I was given some morphine tablets and told to take one as soon as I got home. I did and fell asleep even though it was the middle of the afternoon. The pain they expected me to have after the anesthetic wore off never came, which was surprising. That got me thinking about the only other time I took morphine and had no side effects. This time there was no pain and the morphine put me to sleep, perhaps because there was no medical need for it. This is why I am wondering about the effect of pot for asthma.
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"Side effects"
I woman I know, who can be very caustic, told us how she had been suffering from a very painful pinched nerve. She had been given Oxycontin and it was a relief to now be pain free. She said she had learned to be less critical of chronic pain sufferers.
I commented to my husband how mellow she had become though the experience. He said, "Oh no, that's the drugs."
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297, timohio -
Thanks, I will try the paste wax. I know the pegs are not ebony. I think they are cherry; at least the body of the instrument is so I'm assuming the pegs are. I am not a wood expert, only know pine and oak on sight. I do like my wooden pegs. Mechanical pegs look silly on a dulcimer, though wooden ones are not common anymore.
Years ago I did a week-long dulcimer workshop at the Augusta Heritage Festival in West Virginia. I was the only one in the class with wooden pegs and the others all had to wait for me to finish tuning, but they were very nice about it, and fascinated, and would always clap for me once I accomplished it. We were always retuning for different modes.
My worst problem with tuning is that I have an irrational terror of breaking a string and having it whip out and blind me. (You know - the usual terrors - rats, snakes, spiders, breaking strings . . . )
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294 vand 297 Marbles and Tim
I had several friends who cycled (pedal) around london . they would come in after their commute wheezing and spluttering. "Ventalin" had done no good. but he home style remedy did.
There are stories of gods giving it to a man to stop his burning lungs.
It is legal in the US with a card.
so The mods removing my previous post for"condoning" illegal activity is a joke.
The same joke that made me watch my gran with MS die having never been given the opportunity to try and see if it helps, Because even the discussion is banned.
pathetic really.
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300 lol
mine never noticed.
As a lot of people. one classic was back in the UK where a friends well educated father (who helped bring Gaddaffi into the fold) commented to his son that he liked me because i was the only one who was not stoned the whole time.
Which was as it happened the total opposite of the truth.
It is purely down to confidence, which all of life is.
Being goofy does not also make one stupid, despite claims.
I do not consider myself stupid though I am sure many out there disagree.
Marbles you will get a buzz if you try it for medical reasons.
PS I feel the same about alcohol, which does in my eyes make people stupid.
they giggle, they communicate with mixed and confused signals, often starting fights(or if enough drunks get together) or even a war.
I also believe that many of the mistakes of the last 50 years have been because the decision makers got "tipsy" too often.
I agree that if we are to have prohibition then be fair ban the booze as well.
PPS some people like the taste and can ramble on like wine snobs about different valleys .
Then there is the huge amount of money waiting for the feds if they were smart.
Then everyones a winner.
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Oh And my Gran would not have to die because of peoples bigotry.
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bere54
"rats, snakes, spiders, breaking strings . . ."
Oh you have so many worries..... Reminds me of my mother saying, "If I have nothing else to worry about, I can always worry about the cat jumping on the mantle and knocking over Don Quixote." (A beautiful porcelain piece my parents bought in Florence - now in my possession - so I get to worry about it! We don't have a cat.)
You could try wearing protective glasses!!
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happylaze
When my father was dying of cancer that had spread to his lungs, his doctor prescribed it in pill form. It is very expensive. My mother commented to the doctor on the cost, his response, "Can't your children get him any?" Which of course we did.
I'm very sorry about your Gran.
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re. 303. bere54:
Just a light coat of paste wax; you don't want them to be too slippery. If a peg sticks, you can put just a touch of bar soap on it. Again, only a touch because a slippery peg is worse than a sticky peg.
Yes, the pegs could easily be cherry. I have a walnut dulcimer I bought years ago in Tennessee, and it has walnut pegs. Classical and early music instruments usually have pegs in a very hard wood like boxwood or rosewood, but as long as the hardness of the peg and peg box are similar, cherry pegs will work just fine.
About a year ago I repaired a dulcimer that had been made by a local craftsman in the mid 70s. Someone had taken out the wooden pegs and replaced them with tuning machines--badly. I replaced the machines with rosewood pegs and felt like the instrument was thanking me. It just looked much better.
If you don't have one, an inexpensive digital chromatic tuner speeds up tuning. You can buy them for 20-30 dollars. At least you can see which direction to tune and how close you are to being on tune. It's kind of funny at early music conferences to see a group of people with reproductions of medieval instruments all whip out their electronic tuners.
As far as strings breaking, remember that they're wire and can stand up to a lot of tension. But you might not want to bend over the dulcimer while tuning. Keep your face out of the line of fire. I once had an entire bridge pop off a lute I was tuning. I had made the lute, so it was my fault. I had bent over it to tune, and the edge of the bridge just missed my nose. Now I make sure I'm well back when I tune, and I've improved my technique for gluing on bridges!
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re. 305. happylaze:
Personally I think most of the mistakes of the last 50 years can be laid at the door of testosterone rather than alcohol. Bush is apparently a reformed alcoholic and never touches the stuff. Didn't improve the quality of his decision-making, though.
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302, timewaits.
I think your husband has never suffered great pain. I should think getting rid of chronic pain would improve one's outlook on life. People forget the original benefit of narcotics, which was to relieve pain. For some reason prejudice has dumped sufferers in with druggies, whose only pain is being alive.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
lol 307 Time I gotta cat . do you want it?
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308 thanks Time. she lived a fairly long life thanks to the great british NHS.
who we have to thank for the years we had.
She was the first real trooper I knew.
Last thing she said to me was"don't pay the poll tax"
Great lady.
Thanks again.
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307, timewaits -
I'll steal my daughter's chem lab goggles.
I don't really have terrors about the rats, snakes, and spiders. That was just my facetious way of communicating the level of the danger and horror of the snapping, twanging, eyeball-slashing dulcimer string.
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310.
Tim , maybe so. but was Bush's reaction part of some strange rebound thing. like when many alcoholics find God all of a sudden.
Anything to concentrate on .........Avoiding a drink.
Hey but Van Gough (the painter not dead racist) was a drunk as well and did lovely pics.
Many of the worlds best smiths are drunk all day.
I'm not really opposed to booze, but I am opposed to the ridiculous ban on pot and the throwing out of medical benefits because of paranoid drunks who think ,because they can't walk in a straight line drunk ,that a pot head who can juggle at the top of a 6 ft giraffe unicycle(not me) (but I can diablo like a devil) is on a similar drug.
there is no comparison. it doesn't work that way.
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308, timewaits.
"When my father was dying of cancer that had spread to his lungs, his doctor prescribed it (cannabis) in pill form. It is very expensive. My mother commented to the doctor on the cost, his response, 'Can't your children get him any?' Which of course we did."
Be fair. Pharmaceutical companies have to make a living. I was taking prescription Zyrtec. It cost about $2 a pill. The it went over-the-counter and it cost about about $.80 per pill. Then I found generic. It costs $.074 cents a pill. All this in less than a year. Maybe I should start a pharmaceutical company....
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313 happylaze
"don't pay the poll tax" Oh! That is a fabulous line! Did you do as she asked?
She didn't happen to read tea leaves did she, as one of my aunts did? Amazingly accurate.
Regarding your cat! (Sorry can't help myself) - "you have let the cat out of the bag" regarding his physical condition as well as your affection for him. Thank you, but I must decline.
310 timohio
Liked your take on things.
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308 Time sorry for your Dad, I hope it helped.
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319 happylaze
It did, that and the morphine. Thanks, it was a terrible experience. He was only 65 and I miss him to this day. He was the kind of person that everyone loved, respected and admired. You would have liked him, everybody did. He was a "man of few words" so you could have done most of the talking, which you seem to like to do, down at the pub over a pint. He would have paid.
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happylaze
P.S. His mantra was, "I am willing to help anyone who is willing to help themselves." I try to live by that. Although I am not the "man" my father was.
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320 time ,lol but time then I couldn't learn.
but then there is the pint.
318 time I didn't
she didn't (not when I knew her.)
and that cat, there's nothing wrong with that cat a very rare three leg friesian bobtail.
nothing wrong with it ,he's a masterpiece, tell you what .I 'll throw in a bag of kitty litter.
317 marbles.
yep they have to make profit.
here they convinced the us gov to let them produce a crappy (people I know who have tried the marinol have said it makes them queesy and basically had the wrong effect compared to the smoke.
strange how this easy to grow crop that has a huge amount of by products that are good as well (fibre, oils) is illegal.
But you can buy the pill version that has no high(some disagree,but it is bad) and makes you feel bad is legal.
How is it that a pill derived through processing a chemical soup to try to "mimic" the original grows every where cheap and simple pot.
But then we did the same to opium and created heroin
and coca to coke
(two medical advances)
now to the christians, "do you really think we are going to do much better than God did on the pot issue."
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322, happy.
The pharmceutical industry makes all sorts of synthetic narcotics for pain that are much more expensive than than the real thing, morphine.
Big joke. Lotsa money. The real thing is cheap. No patent.
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323 yep one huge con that "war on drugs".
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322 happylaze
"a masterpiece" Well then I'm sure you would like to keep him.
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325
TIME ,I'LL SPEAK UP THEN. I SAID YOU COULD HAVE HIM , I'LL GIVE HIM TO YOU CHEAP.CAN'T BE FAIRER THAN THAT.;)
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324, happy.
The war I would like to wage is the war on drug companies. They are more successful thieves than the banks. They help keep America healthy, right?
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326 happylaze
I do not know where you got the idea from that there is anything wrong with my hearing. O.K. I admitted my eyes get weary from squinting at dark sites, but that is because I am also a trooper and persevere. Should my hearing diminish, which it has NOT, I will refuse to accept the fact and use my mother's line of, "Why is everyone mumbling?"
I am honoured that out of all the posters on this site, you have chosen me to take on your cat. Is he able to jump on mantles, which is how we got on this topic? His future depends on your answer.
To get back to Grans; mine was trapped on Malta during the war, finally evacuated to Gibraltar of all places (it was suppose to be Egypt but the plane was diverted), for the duration, as they say.
What is the topic of this blog? Grans, cats and drugs?
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328 Time
Depends on the mantle.
(ummmm nervous tremble.. Thought"go on don't look at the rear end ")
"sound as pound that cat Miss, go on. .ye,know at you want it. Look It's meowing TO you, how sweet."
Opps didn't mean to shout.
Marbles
Agreed with that war.
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328 Time
Apparently the topic is fair ground cons.
"everyones a winner"
Talking of winners I got this cat you might be interested in.
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happylaze - I must have missed something. Why do you want to give away your cat? Are you tired of all that squeezing?
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330 happylaze
Just a regular run-of-the-mill mantle.
I'm tempted to say "yes" just to hear your reaction. Is shipping included? I ask as I drink my tea and nibble on Hob Nobs. They are very good, an acquired taste.
bere54
So it either can or cannot jump on my mantle and knock over Don Quixote. Who (he, Sancho, and the tired horse!) are not in fact on my mantle. But in a much more secure location.
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332
Free shipping . Your twisting me arm there , Tell you what You pay the shipping and I'll throw in a water bowl and food bowl.
I was just practising my lying to get a job selling american cars.
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happylaze
"selling american cars" In that case I would drop the "sound as pound" if it refers to the British Pound. Which I presume it does, have never thought of it before.
You wouldn't part with that cat and I know it.
What is your take on teaching in Licolnshire? Just an idea we have, which we can quickly be dissuaded of and scratch that idea off our list.
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334
time
green grass is found every where but a dessert .
I do not know lincolnshire, but If you live in the cold north you maybe used to it.
If you want to travel yes go.
I like the beautiful swimming holes we have here in Oregon.
So I stay for the meanwhile.
If you like where you are try the "don't fix it ,if it ain't broke "approach.
Nice country side.
then there is the change of scenery.
I travel and sometimes stay but you end up leaving a lot behind , and the net does not really shrink the distance as much as some say.
Can't make that call.
I'd say Devon is a nice place if you can avoid the "Rob s".
Nice folk who don't know that part of them is not nice, the quiet bigots.
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And they got swimming holes.(small but there)
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335 happylaze
Thanks. As I said, just an idea for a temporary change, nothing more. Use to think when we have more time will spend it traveling the world. With the situation today; air travel nightmares, who can afford it?, etc. have started to rethink those plans. So the opportunity to go and live and work in a different environment "sounds" appealing. Only for a year or two and would return here in the summers. But sure don't want to find myself living somewhere I don't want to be!! I am not trying to escape.
Sounds like an adventure, so wanted your opinion. As my father of a few words would say, "If you want to know something, ask an expert." I do not know their winter temperatures, but for sure it is not colder than here!! Some days, not this year so far, we are akin to Siberia - I kid you not!
We have decided to go on a "road trip." Will venture south into the US and drive until the weather warms up. Check out what is happening down there. Will be gone for a week or so. In case you notice my absence. Might have the opportunity to check in, if so will keep you posted. Full report upon my return.
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Time Go for it. just be back before the 2012 crap hits
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337 have fun on your trip e mail me if you are in Oregon
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happylaze -
Do I remember correctly that you live in Eugene? My son lived out there for a year and complained that it was cold and rainy in the winter and warmish and rainy in the summer. His only transportation was bicycle and roller blades, so felt the weather keenly. He claimed he was wet all year. Was he exaggerating?
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339 happylaze
I think you have been in the States too long! Oregon is not in fact south of Montreal!! But thank you, if I am I will, just not this time when I go SOUTH!
Have just checked the map and Portland is almost exactly due WEST.
How long have you been there?
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342, timewaits -
Vermont is south of Montreal (I know you know that!). But I am over on the New Hampshire border which is probably not the direction you're heading of you're looking for warm weather.
I would suggest you not go to Florida. It is flat and ugly, and full of bugs and a lot of retirees from New York living in fancy trailer parks.
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bere54
"Florida" Been there more times than I care to mention. Lots of Quebecers too. But thanks. We will go down through NY. Just drive until it warms up, I'm sure you can identify. "This is a nice temperature let's stop here." Perhaps NC or SC.
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timewaits -
Yes, did that once to escape a winter of ice storms while living in Virginia, which is how I discovered I don't like Florida. My sister lives in western NC; they're having cold and snow. But it might be warm by the time you get there. Have a good time!
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bere54
We have seen the storm move up the coast, but are hoping it is short lived. A change of scenery will be nice and I would like to get a feel for what is happening in the US. Thank you.
I might check in if possible but otherwise as I said, full report on my return.
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341 lol I thought you were in alberta for a while there(probably because of that link you sent about the Job up there) So sorry.
Looking on the map in front of me it is funny to see that that invasive bit of Canada that sticks below the parallel Is further south than Eugene and all the way down to Medford or Eureka.
Don't move it any more south.
Poor Torontoones
Bloody southerners
Been here for 8 years.
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340 NO he was not exagerating.
(SHHHH Have THEY gone?The californians?
Good , look truth is it's not as bad as we like to boast he must have gone local on you.
Overcast in the valley in the summer yes, but it does not rain that much.
Maybe in a good year
Lets put it this way if it were so wet how did this happen http://www.wmo.int/pages/mediacentre/news/archive/images/Fire%20flareup_jpg.jpg
http://extension.oregonstate.edu/emergency/wildfire.php
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If your looking for warmer weather we are at 47 f today.
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happylaze
Before I set off to a Thousand Islands and the I 81 a link for you.
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lol time can i get it as Preventative medicine .
That and I forgot but there was another thing it helped with;)
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Have a good trip;)
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