Will the world respond to America's Moment?
Some innocent celebration here.
On the Mall, the moment of magic was the moment he (finally) got to the end of the oath. Tears and kisses all around.
America has shown the world how it will treat this new force in the land, at least in the early days. But the world has yet to respond: Europe with troops for Afghanistan; Iran with fewer flag burnings; Israel with calm rational thinking about its future; Osama Bin Laden by admitting that he was wrong?
Exactly: some things won't happen. And when they don't happen... ?
Hello, I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~38~RS~)
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"some things won't happen. And when they don't happen... ?"
Isn't it a bit early for negativity? Check back after the President has actually been in office for a few months, not minutes.
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Justin,
This is not calculus (the measurement of what is not to define what is). In the world Obama now must take leadership in, the reactions of others will colour his policies and reaction, to be sure. What he must be careful of is the mass-hysteria knee-jerk reacftion demanded by the media (sound bites) and public (man of action scenarios).
In our house there were tears of joy for the next chapter into a pluralistic America, the one our fore-fathers envisioned and we have had to struggle constantly to strive for. It is not a perfect Union, we know that. But this "patchwork" Obama referred to is the very strength, durability and resource needed to keep this nation moving forward. Sure, there are rips and tears occassionally, there are those who find our quilt too garish and others who find it less sophisticated culturally than they would lile. But here's the thing about a "patchwork" it is always servicable, repairable, modifiable and improvable WITHOUT having to start all over again.
Stay warm friend,
Peter
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On any board other than his own, Justin would be described as a wum!
Biden was right, and Justin agrees So do I. Countries will not be rushing to offer goodwill, they will be pushing to test Obama's strengths and weaknesses.
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Some good speech. Wow.
Does anyone have a link for a video of the benediction that followed the speech?
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Very importantly, will he solve the Israeli/Palestinian conflicts? Judging by Israel's actions which were clearly based around this inauguration it most likely won't happen in this term.
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And when they don't happen... ?
"Whatever place does not welcome you or listen to you, leave there and shake the dust off your feet in testimony against them." --Mark 6:11
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Wow, a little impatient there, aren't you, Justin? The guy was just sworn in. Besides, he's the President of the United States, not the second coming. A wave of his hand does nothing more than create a breeze.
Obama's election was a reflection of what we've already achieved not an achievement in itself, and it's right to make note of that achievement, but America's problems are in the present, not the past. The real work begins now.
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Yes
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There seems to be a misplaced cynicism going around. I say misplaced, because it seems to be based on the idea that there are these widely-held unrealistic expectations.
I mean, seriously, "Osama Bin Laden ... admitting that he was wrong"? What happens when that doesn't happen?
Well, nothing. I don't think a significant number of people are actually expecting that to happen. When something that isn't expected to happen doesn't happen, it's not usually a problem.
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Hugs, kisses, congratulations, words of praise and hope for a new beginning and then it will be back to business as usual. al Qaeda will continue to bomb civilian targets all over the world. Iran will continue on its efforts to build an atom bomb. Hamas will continue to fire rockets at Israel and Israel may again attack Gaza. Hezbollah will continue to work to help Iran take over the middle east. North Korea will continue to be a nuclear menace to East Asia. And all the while, the economies of the world will continue to collapse, global warming will continue changing the world's climate, victims of brutal dictators in Sudan, Zimbabwe, and Burma will continue to suffer and die, and the world will go on much as it has these last years. The names and faces will change, the issues and wars won't. How will Mr. Obama react? That may be the only real surprise to the world because it has not been listening to what he has been saying, it's be so mesmerized by his personna. But I've listened and I am wondering if he will be true to his word.
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Based on the cynical and jaundiced nature of the most recommended comments on the BBC's "Have Your Say" discussion on the Obama inauguration, I can deduce that there weren't any kisses or tears by most BBC readers as they witnessed this historic moment. It really was rather shocking to read how disdainful and dismissive they were - of President Obama and his qualities, of the office of the US President, and of the US in general. Oh well, so much for Obama's holding out the hand of friendship to the world's nations. It just got bitten by the English bulldogs.
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'But the world has yet to respond:'
1. Europe with troops for Afghanistan:
That would really be helpful, but when Candidate Obama mentioned this in his speech in Berlin, one could hear the air escape the balloon of adulation in the crowd.
I'm not as angry about it as Marcus, but Europe has been willing to let America fight to the last young man as it has policed the world, and there were those 'little' incidents in 1917-1918, and 1941-1945 where we rode to the rescue.
2. Iran with fewer flag burnings:
I'd settle for London, Paris, Amsterdam, and Berlin staging fewer US flag burnings!
3. Israel with calm rational thinking about its future:
If Europe is willing to stand by while Hamas and Hezbollah(both Iranian proxies) create havoc, they shouldn't be shocked to find the IDF going after the rocket launchers and tunnels in the schools and mosques. The human toll of the Gaza operation has been terrible, but no one in Israel forced Hamas to use civilians as human shields, or forced Iran to arm Hamas.
4. Osama Bin Laden by admitting that he was wrong?:
Never happen, I'll just settle for him and his being run to ground, hopefully on a day when caught out in the open, not behind his standard curtain of innocent civilians.
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Many are probably appalled at the shoe-throwing in Washington. I, for one, am not. Our condemnation for those things, or people, we disapprove of should be visible. For too long we have been sheep. I say "Cheers." Hopefully we we are looking at a more activist citizenry.
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"Israel with calm rational thinking about its future..."
Huh? Why not Hamas with calm rational thinking? When they start bring food instead of rockets through those tunnels, I'll have more hope.
This is the first innauguaration I've watched. My TV's still on for the parade. I appreciated the speech - especially since it repudiated actions of the administration that so damaged our country.
OMG! Obama just got out of his car on the parade route! Hope security is tight! Gotta go!
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Obama has reached out to all Americans and the people of the world to build a better future for America and for Planet Earth - I hope we all join him in this quest with a 'Yes we Can - Yes we Wiill' attitude.
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We must take responsibility for ourselves and our actions. Look to our governing body, do not depend on it - hold it liable and ourselves accountable. If President Obama continues to nurture this notion of individual contribution just as a mentor to his crew, soon we will believe it to be evident and quickly sew this encompassing civil duty into our distinctive quality of life. He who has the courage to lead is propelled by the strength of those that follow.
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I am sure that Mr. Obama keeps in mind the mishap with Mr. John Kennedy and therefore he will not go against the interests of Big Money.
Look whom he appointed on the positions in Treasure - they are the same persons who created the crisis.
US lost its authority in the world with two unsuccessful madams as state secretaries, and Mr. Obama found another one, who could not even control properly his own husband.
Mr. Obama looks like average person, nothing outstanding. US will loose under his rule the remnants of its power.
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BTW, the reason the oath was fluffed is that Chief Justice Roberts thought he could give the oath without notes. Obviously he couldn't. The president tried to keep up with the screw-up and did OK, considering. Roberts took responsibility, and to be fair; it was his first time to administer the oath.
They could have done a duet of "Brother Can You Spare a Dime" for all I care. As long as we get people in office who'll help us out of our financial mess. Eight years ago my whole family was in pretty good shape financially. Now we're all in trouble and so are most of the people I know.
Medic!
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Barack Obama is the latter day John F. Kennedy as he is sworn in as the 44th President of the USA. He has captured the feelings of US and world citizens of the need for huge changes on how the US deals with rest of the world. He promises a kinder, caring more inclusive leadership that has sadly been lacking in the last eight years of the Bush administration. George W. Bush made neutrals out of friends and enemies out of neutrals. Michelle Obama will bring a class and style to the the position of First Lady that has been missing since Jacque Kennedy graced Washington. Together Barack and Michelle are an absolute delight and will turn the world back to exciting and opptunistic times.
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#7. AndyPost: "he's the President of the United States, not the second coming."
A statement that might be disputed by some!
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To echo your thoughts Justin, Obama is already being tested. By Israel.
The meticulous planning also presumably included the termination of the assault, carefully timed to be just before the inauguration, so as to minimize the (remote) threat that Obama might have to say some words critical of these vicious US-supported crimes.
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President Obama has just taken the mantle of power and the reins as well of the Presidency. There is such groundswell of goodwill. Obama has the brains, the guts, the determination and the staying power. Countries all over the world realise he is proactive and has the whole nation behind him. America is well on the road to rebuilding multilateral relationships. The world would be a richer one for that. America's star is glowing with brilliance. With the right leadership nobody resents America. President Obama, we salute you and congratulate you on your remakable success, reaching the pinnacle of fame. Humility is your name.
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I know that there are a few leaders that found out their conceptions about America were off base. i.e. Fidel Castros prophetic comment that Barack would never be elected, Americas was too racist he claimed and that he probably would be assasinated.
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If change of state (11) hasn't learn't yet that the 'Have Your Say' boards are occupied by purely reactionary conservative depressing people, he has now.
Others have at least some optimism for the guy. Give him a chance, people!
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Firstly, in repsonse to ChangeofState, there were some of us who watched and listened with tears in our eyes and hope in our hearts.
Secondly, Justin is not being negative, he is doing what a good journalist does.
I have a further two points to make here:
1. I was actually, very pleasantly surprised at how honest the inaugural speech was. It clearly, simply reflected the current state of affairs not only in the US but throughout the world. Obama did not seek to lay unnecssary blame at the doors of those most convenient; although quite correctly alluded to those whose single minded or blinkered approach appear to have contributed to the turmoil we see around us today.
He was also very clear that a government has its place and its role in leading and enabling change; but also lay down the gauntlet to everyone to take responsibility now for our and future generations.
In an age, where abdicated responsibility runs amok some brutal facts do need to be faced.
"Fortes fortuna adiuvat"
2. I was proud of my young son, who came home from school and asked to watch the televised coverage of the inauguration.
I don't feel smug, but I feel confident that future generations will pick up any gaunlets we throw down for them, but we have to lead by example.
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The symbolism of Obama for Europe could hardly be starker. Obama was born in Hawaii in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, far closer to China, Japan, and other Pacific rim countries than to Europe. He spent part of his youth in Indonesia, not Europe. He doesn't look like a European or think like a European. America's connections to Europe are growing thinner and weaker as the US becomes more representative of all of the peoples and cultures of the world who have come here. Yet he is unmistakably American. It should give Europe something to ponder that when it looks Barack Obama in the face, it sees the unmistakable image of those it cannot deny it opressed for centuries and injustices it has not redressed or even acknowledges today as it continues its racist cultures. Perhaps President Obama will make it clear to Europe that the free ride it has gotten on the backs of American taxpayers is over. Now NATO, how about sending around 50,00 troops to Afghanistan to fight as a good start towards a new relationship?
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Surprised no-one has commented on the obvious echos of Martin Luther King's "Dream" speech: obviously the location and the crowd but also the formality of the language, its rhetoric of struggle and hope, its deep roots in black American Baptist culture. Those same echos were in his election-night speech; strange that the pundits keep saying that he "only makes passing reference to his race" when his whole way of speaking says "yes, I'm black, get used to it".
It's a truism that Obama's election goes a long way to fulfilling King's dream, and there's a sense of euphoria that crosses party lines because so many see this as a great American achievment, and particularly a black achievment: ideals trumping history and prejudice, not without a hard fight. Seems to me that Obama is saying to the whole of America, as only he could possibly do, "you too can be part of this". He's subliminally invoking the spirit of the civil rights movement to ask Americans to pull together to get themselves out of the deep hole they're in right now (yes, the economy, stupid, but the environment is in there too, and the wars and all the rest).
I dunno, maybe it'll work.
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Dceilar (22), I second your observation. Now those seeking cynicism know where to go for lessons.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
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I'm a realist. I didn't expect much change from Obama, and didn't vote for him. (I did expect change...but from Ron Paul, Dennis Kucinich, Mike Gravel and the third-party candidates, which was why I backed them...)
Still Obama now has power. It will only take a bit of time to show if he can use it to better America and the world (or, better still, limit its use) by changing the course that Bush (and Clinton, Bush, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy, Eisenhower, Truman and Roosevelt) has set, particularly in foreign policy.
Unfortunately, based on his Cabinet and VP picks, this is as likely to happen as Richard Dawkins becoming a monk.
And, it's also interesting to note the goodwill that some Republicans have for Obama. Senator John Conryn announced after the Congress's lunch with Obama, and after he talked of Ted Kennedy's seizure, that he would be putting a hold on Clinton's nomination. (Of course, I am glad that SOMEONE is opposing Clinton for SecState...)
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Israel's critical timing - from start to finish
Good analysis
Peace
ed
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Joe Lowery's benediction
Someone asked for a link
Pleased to help
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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I am waiting to see how Obama will handle Gaza, The attack was purposely made before Obama took office. Sly move. What will he do....
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There is a difference between a "leader" and a "saviour". Some people are looking for a saviour -- someone to save them from the consequences of their own follies. Those people will always be disappointed and feel betrayed when what they've one comes back to them.
Other people are looking for a leader; someone who is intelligent and savvy enough to understand the causes of pressing problems and who is strong enough to withstand pressures from those responsible (or who benefited) who are still living in denial. Those people will never be one hundred per cent satisfied because no one is perfect. Barack Obama is human; he will make mistakes. Overall, if he remains true to his image most people looking for a leader will be satisfied.
Of course, a few people are looking for a surrogate parent; someone who will take care of them while they play all day. Those people need to grow up.
Happy freedom day!
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12 OldSouth
"1. Europe with troops for Afghanistan:
That would really be helpful, but when Candidate Obama mentioned this in his speech in Berlin, one could hear the air escape the balloon of adulation in the crowd.
I'm not as angry about it as Marcus, but Europe has been willing to let America fight to the last young man as it has policed the world, and there were those 'little' incidents in 1917-1918, and 1941-1945 where we rode to the rescue."
I do not believe the German people are eager to have their troops deployed anywhere outside their own country, other than for humanitarian causes, for very good reason. No matter who asks them to do so.
Nor do I wish to be petty but the "little incidents" were 1914-1918 and 1939-1945, when Europe and the British Commonwealth were fighting to the last man, begging the US to come to their aid. Unfortunately it is the attitude of "riding to the rescue" that causes resentment towards Americans. Thousands died waiting for help to come.
Personally I would like to see the UN police the world. I see no reason why the burden should be placed on the shoulders of the US tax-payers.
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#21
Michelle?
Filthy Sam
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I am very proud of my country again for the first time in a long time. Sometimes great people, who possess honor and a desire to ALWAYS do the right thing, just happen along in times when they are so needed. I think that President Obama is one of those great people. I am a white woman, but he has lifted the chains of so many of us. We are behind him. Long live our president!
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I have always been proud of my British heritage, but I am a little shocked by the cynicism. Perhaps you are jealous because finally we have someone great again. I hope you find your next great leader as well. I love the British Isles always, but wish you would be happy with us for our new and great leader.
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#28. MarcusAureliusII: (Obama) "doesn't look like a European or think like a European."
He looks like a lot of younger British men, many of whom whose parents were from Kenya, but then you wouldn't know since you've never been there. Inter-racial marriage is not limited to the United States.
How exactly does the European thought process differ from someone born in Hawaii - the flag of which must gall you, having the Union Jack as part of its design.
"Perhaps President Obama will make it clear to Europe that the free ride it has gotten on the backs of American taxpayers is over."
Any "free ride" has not been the result of America's altruism, but rather to ensure her safety and well being in world.
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39, Tshannon3201 wrote:
'I have always been proud of my British heritage, but I am a little shocked by the cynicism. Perhaps you are jealous because finally we have someone great again. I hope you find your next great leader as well. I love the British Isles always, but wish you would be happy with us for our new and great leader.'
Don't get us wrong (you just need to look at today's UK newspaper front pages, I guess -- I haven't seen them). The vast majority of us are.
It's just that we are a lot more cynical about politicians generally, I think; we often separate the personality from the policy.
I also think a lot of us are very worried that there's been more than 2 months of bumbling about, and Obama really has to get his administration (and Congress) moving really fast. See the FT today, I think.
And you have to remember we had a somewhat similar spell of relief and optimism on a sunny May day morning in 1997, but it didn't turn out quite the way we'd hoped in the end.
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28. MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"The symbolism of Obama for Europe could hardly be starker. Obama was born in Hawaii in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, far closer to China, Japan, and other Pacific rim countries than to Europe."
In a country that had been a British Protectorate and the US annexed (read the Newlands Resolution) and even placed under martial law in the 1940's. As DC pointed out, look at the flag.
(And if you hadn't realised yet, 'Manifest Destiny' and the Monroe Doctrine are long past their sell-by dates.)
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Justin:
i think that the world will respond to (america)'s moment...
~Dennis Junior~
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40. David_Cunard wrote:
#28. MarcusAureliusII: (Obama) "doesn't look like a European or think like a European."
He looks like a lot of younger British men, many of whom whose parents were from Kenya, but then you wouldn't know since you've never been there.
I hadn't thought about that, but he does. Like a couple of teenage brothers I know (I don't know where their dad's family originates from, never occurred to me to ask).
But we can guess MAII doesn't think of people like those brothers as 'European' or even 'British', can't we? Funny, that, because they spend a lot of time in France at their grandad's house there . . .
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Posts 28,40,44:
Just to smoke MAII and his friends out, might as well say I have had more than one 'mixed race' relationship (horrible phrase, I think, we all belong to the 'human race', don't we?), and so have most of my friends now I think about it.
I don't think many of us (brits, or half-brits like me) think about it these days: we have a relationship, full stop.
Of course, I live in London, which is all pretty mixed (up? -- just 4U MAII!) anyway.
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That vid's not bad, is it? Clever. Am I the only one who watched it? Is everybody being too serious?
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Obama won 52/46% - basically half and half.
The reaction of the people on the mall indicates how half of America will respond.
Substantial numbers of Americans will be dismayed. Small numbers of Americans will be buying more guns, filling the back of the pickup with fertiliser and heading for the hills.
Just because the half of the population that support messia Obama are getting all the publicity does not mean the other half of America does not exist.
It would be nice to see some news coverage of the whole spectrum of opinion.
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Morgaine (35),
And, (OldSouth and Timewaits) as to There's a better way, and you'd be surprised how far a small donation goes.Working at neighbourhood level
Peace
ed
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No.28
What a shocking diatribe of prejudiced drivel.
"...doesn't look like a Eurpoean or think like a European."
No. He looks like a human being and thinks like one. As do we all.
Some of us around the world have lived in more than one country during their lives (e.g. Canada, Norway, UAE, Singapore, NZ) and are mature enough to consider ourselves citizens of the world rather than defined and limited by cultural boundaries or physical borders.
As to the European "free ride" and sweeping statements about oppression and racism, it's exactly that kind of overbearing, unthinking, fascism poorly disguised as patriotism that has so heavily contributed to America's poor worldwide standing of recent years.
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49.DNAtheist wrote:
No.28
What a shocking diatribe of prejudiced drivel.
Well, we keep trying to educate him, but he's a very recalcitrant pupil. But we assume if you hit the 'Refer to moderator' thing and yell "Off-topic" or whatever, it'll just get worse.
Keeps us on our mental toes though, contradicting his amazing distortions. If wikipedia charged, it'd be raking in thousands given the number of times we have to check for the right facts thanks to him.
I've learnt quite a bit that way actually. Might join the local pub quiz team . . .
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49.DNAtheist
I mean, I now know a lot more about the history of Hawaii and the birthplace of the current president than I did just because MAII provoked someone into pointing out that the Hawaiian flag has the (British) Union flag in the corner.
Apparently it also symbolically represents a Hawaiian "stylized puela (a triangular standard laying across two crossed spears called an alia)".
I never knew a Union flag could be so adaptable. (Apart from duvet covers, carrier bags and underpants and suchlike.)
All thanks to MAII, really. Pub quiz, here I come!
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I am sure that after a 100 days in power there will be some who are dissapointed with the new administration.
Some will think that change is not happening quick enough while others will believe that things that have changed shouldn't have.
The British goverment will want to ensure that the special relaitionship will continue to be as strong as it has been under the Bush Preisdency, i dought if it will be, but there will be one.
Obama will be speaking to his Chiefs of staff in order to try and get the fastest exit out of Iraq. The role of Hillary Clinton will be critical to the way the US is viewed from abroad.
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Oh wow - this is like parliament.
Opinions, opinions, opinions. It's like the real world on your PC. Sorry, does that sound childish. A bit like some of the comments I've read, but in all honesty, this is how local, state, national, party, international, earth politics works. I loved timewaitsfornoman and the 1914-1918 / 1939-1945 comment - I thought it, you wrote it. In all honesty, I don't see all this resentment from the US toward the EU or the UK in day to day life, only in what I read here or in the media at large. For my part, I resent on a personal level, not a national one.
I am ex UK military (Air Force), and have seen my share of action in the world, pre gulf war I (it was in 1982 in the South Atlantic) and am proud of my heritage, but I also consider myself a world citizen, then a European, then British, then English, then my home town of Newcaslte upon Tyne, to the village, street and house I was born in, but I'm still the same person. It is the mind that maketh the man, and it is the life that is led that maketh the mind.
Barak Obama has had a colourful life, has experienced multi cultural diversity in a number of places, appears or sounds to have an open mind on a number of VERY important issues and it is those qualities and experiences that makes him the man he is, and the man he will become. The colour of his skin, the name of his father, the 'GOD' he worships is insignificant. He's got a lot to do in 2 years if he's to get a second term, no different to any previous US elected leader. Let him get on with it.
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No.50
Finding the right balance between responding to ill-conceived outbursts (thereby potentially appearing to lend some level of validity to them) in an effort to provide a counterbalance and simply dismissing them as unworthy of rational discussion, is a fine line on which I often find myself see-sawing.
Ultimately, if we as posters gain a modicum of enlightenment from engaging in critical writing supported by research (and actual brain activity), then perhaps, as you suggest, we should express some gratitude for being 'kept on our toes'. And equally, amaze and irritate friends in the pub quiz environment, perhaps even winning free beer in the process.
Result!
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David_Cunard #40
Those young men in the UK who were born in Kenya or whose ancestors were, may technically be British citizens but the majority of the British population doesn't see them that way. How much do you want to bet that during my lifetime, not one of them will EVER become Prime Minister of Great Britain? The difference in discrimination and oppression of them and their ilk in the UK and the rest of Europe is only a matter of degree of its overtness. It's alright with me if Europe wants to throw away much of its human capital. It makes Europe even less competitive than it already is.
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48 Ed Iglehart
"There's a better way, and you'd be surprised how far a small donation goes."
Thanks for the link. As you may know, I am Canadian. We did not support the invasion of Iraq and suffered the consequences of frosty relations with our neighbours to the south.
We are in Afghanistan and now find ourselves in the position of being accused of "not supporting our troops" if we suggest they come home.
Of course I do not want acid thrown in the face of children or women forced to wear a burqa, but I would like to see Canada return to its traditional role as Peacekeepers.
53 SHLA2UK
"I loved timewaitsfornoman and the 1914-1918 / 1939-1945 comment - I thought it, you wrote it."
Oh thank you. Coming from ex UK military, that is high praise.
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55. At 2:06pm on 21 Jan 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
David_Cunard #40
Those young men in the UK who were born in Kenya or whose ancestors were, may technically be British citizens but the majority of the British population doesn't see them that way. How much do you want to bet that during my lifetime, not one of them will EVER become Prime Minister of Great Britain? The difference in discrimination and oppression of them and their ilk in the UK and the rest of Europe is only a matter of degree of its overtness. It's alright with me if Europe wants to throw away much of its human capital. It makes Europe even less competitive than it already i"
There are far more black/asian etc members of the British government and parliament then the equivalent in the US.
As many Americans have observed, America could learn a lesson in successful integration from the UK, in terms of colour at least.
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55
I live and work in West London, close to Heathrow Airport, and the cultural diversity of people on the street, in the workplace, in the media and in local / national government, would lead an alien landing for the first time at that airport to ask the question "what country is this?"
The UK is not inherently racist. The problems occur when difference of opinion blocks progress, much the same as any other issue with any other nation, with any other people throughout history.
Granted, we have never had a black Prime Minister, but most English people don't realise that Blair was born in Edinburgh either (that's Edinburgh, Scotland) and that Brown himself is a Scot.
If you believe that England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (since you quoted UK) are an exclusively white community, with exclusively white ideals, notions and beliefs, you would be very very wrong. If you're ever in London, and I hope that one day you might get the opportunity to visit this great diverse multi-cultural city with over 2500 years of human history in one way or another, take a bus up to Neasden in North London, and you will find Shri Swaminarayan Mandir, the largest Hindu Temple outside of India. 'Nuff said
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58. british-ish wrote
I'm not going to get myself banned for saying exactly what I think of him, his obnoxious attitudes, his childish taunts, malevolence and downright general offensiveness, let alone his utter disrespect for, and discourtesy to, nearly everyone else who contributes to this blog, but I think you can guess.
No need to get yourself banned mate - any self respecting reader can understand both sides of this particular argument, and everyone will find their own outcome. For my part, I see your point, but in all honesty, he's ranting on a subject that most Brits are aware of, one way or another, and will either agree or disagree, but that is our issue to deal with.
One point I would like to add is that the US, with it's generous amount of land, the hope, dreams and expectations of moving from an oppressed 16th Century Europe to set up a free self governed land over the horizon has benefited quite nicely over the past 200, 300+ years. Conversely, the UK, a small mass of land just off Northern France has a population of close to 60,000,000 (around a quarter of that of the US with much less available land), and is made up of immigrants from throughout the ages, and still growing faster than any reproductive rates can accomodate. The point, it is all relative.
The UK and Europe is no better nor worse than the US - it is different. Ask a mainland European and they see the UK as different. Ask a Corinthian and they see the Iberians as different. Ask someone from Boston and they see New Yorkers as different.
Now, Marcus is just being different, albeit in a difficult manner.
OMG, how tolerant us Brits can be!!!!
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59. SHLA2UK wrote:
55 (MAII)
He knows that perfectly well, we only contradict him because he posts this stuff so frequently people might actually come to believe it.
Actually, you've reminded me that coming through Heathrow (and Gatwick, Stansted, Waterloo and St Pancras) over the years I must have presented my passport to a British (Marcus? Are you reading carefully?) Immigration Officer of pretty well every ancestry imaginable.
Or religion, if it comes to that. the last one was a Sikh, and the one before that was presumably Muslim (though not necessarily). I just guess because she was wearing a headscarf and she didn't look at all like the Queen moonlighting . . .
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Yes they Will
12 old south
less people have died from rocket attacks in 8 years then have died from road accidents in one month,in Israel
I think a sense of priorities is needed for you and them. and hopefully that comment about ' you will be judged on what you BUILD not destroy' will sink in on their side as well.
We will see.
But if nothing is done about Israel, not hamas, there will not be an and and nothing will change.
Hamas has been around since the end of the PLO which we all ignored in the same way.
We , the west have shown that we will ignore anything or anyone but Israel's demands .
Every one talks as if taking fuel away is not a way of preventing fire.
You talk of Hamas.
How old is Hamas?
Israel has not listened to any Palestinians views for 60 years.
This regime has continuously broken resolutions defied the UN. refused to be moderate (and when they tried they died at their own peoples hands).
60 years of being told to shove it.
But still that "terrorist organisation less than a third the age of Israel"
the CONSISTANT factor here is Israel .and should be reminded of this.
without that there will be more fuel and more fire.
but carry on blaming hamas eh easier that way.
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What a turn off - all this coverage of Obama makes me ill. The way that the media love him and his dummed down narrative is perhaps what is to be expected nowadays. It reminds me of Princess Di's death and Tony Bliars election - ie total crass coverage by an inept media, lack of any real challenge on his doubtful associations/ beliefs and adoration by hoardes of imbiciles, celebs (promoting their own wares) and flunkies. His speech was at best a real toecurler. Well let's see if he can do anything of real substance to match all his fine rhetoric. I hope the media will also give some balance and tone down the admiration of him and give some intellectual rigour and challenging analysis of him. And perhaps they can give up the first black President stuff, as its all rather patronising. In short Justin can you and your colleagues stop all your crawling and actually do your job for the license payers after all we pay you and not the BO fanclub which you all appear to be members of.
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#36 ref.
I see no reason why the burdens of the world should be placed on the shoulders of the US tax-payers either, but realize that the UN is largely funded by the American tax-payers, so Americans would be paying anyways. Why risk American sovereignty to UN police when we will be paying for it?
On another note, what do yall think of China censoring Obama's inauguration speech?--weird, but not surprising.
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61 british-ish
"she was wearing a headscarf and she didn't look at all like the Queen moonlighting . . ."
Oh we are all being so witty today!! Is it because we have just entered Aquarius? We already know watermanaquarius is a pretty amusing fellow.
Many years ago when my parents were coming in from Heathrow, (excuse me what kind of BBC site is this? The spell check wants Heathrow to be two words?) as I was saying... my father a man of dry wit, turned to my mother and asked, "So, how do you like Bombay so far?"
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In Ref. #64
That's Globalization for you! :)
Though it does present a paradox for the US. Seeing as we are a nation of immigrants (globalization on a national scale), American culture is what?--a mixture of world cultures.
So when America exports its culture, is it exporting America to the world, or "the world" to the world?--that might explain the seemingly lopsided diffusion of American culture and its popularity with very different cultures abroad.
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63 I would agree that the first black president is patronising.
Though he has been a superb candidate so far and we can only hope he is as good at being president as he was i his campaign .
The rest of what you wrote is...
I won't go there.Today
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The world will CHEER if Obama states US foreign policy will now be based on solid principles and values instead of the influence of special interest groups.
The world will GROAN if Obama fails to establish human rights and justice as the kingpins of US foreign policy.
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#55. MarcusAureliusII: "Those young men in the UK who were born in Kenya or whose ancestors were, may technically be British citizens but the majority of the British population doesn't see them that way. How much do you want to bet that during my lifetime, not one of them will EVER become Prime Minister of Great Britain?"
Since you are sixty and assuming you remain in relatively good physical health, you have approximately twenty-three years ahead of you. Whether there will be a Prime Minister of Kenyan or any other African heritage I can't tell, but I point out that it has taken well over two hundred years for a man of partial African parentage to become President. There was very little African population in Britain before the 1950s and when that first changed, it was largely of Jamaican origin. It need hardly be mentioned that, unlike the United States, there was no segregation, no separate toilet facilities, no separated sections at lunch counters or in buses.
Considering that a viable Afro-Britannic population has only been in existence for around half-a-century, I'd say that Britain has done a far better job at integrating persons of colour into her political system. America has one Black member and no Asians in its Upper House, Britain has seventeen Black and Asian members of the House of Lords.
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The way Justin pitched it did not help, but many have had enough of this whole 'we are carrying Europe' garbage in reference to Afghanistan.
A few clicks on this site will provide info on the (constant) UK combat deaths, others too, like Canada and back to Europe, Dutch, Danes and French to name others.
Some NATO nations are not pulling their weight true, the UK Defence Minister yet again said so just the other day, some were but are changing for the better.
But stop lumping in all of them, with the lazy ignorance that's all too common.
'Ungrateful' is often used, well that cuts both ways.
This is not aimed at the tedious, sad sack buffoon or just plain troll, on here, it's all gibberish from him, but there is it seems a common thread in the US about this.
The post war economic recovery of the UK was adversely affected by our defence commitments, not just 'end of Empire' either.
1000's of British troops fought in Korea at the request of the US, one of the factors in starting the Marshall Plan was a warning from the UK that desperate food shortages in the UK and severe economic problems, made retaining British forces fighting Communists in Greece untenable.
Fearing an advance of Soviet backed Communism across a still war ravaged West Europe, the US came up with the famous plan.
'End of Empire' also meant preventing newly independent nations falling to the Communist Bloc.
The UK succeed here in Malaya, the Radafan in Arabia, Borneo, Oman and others.
Failed in Aden, but still, a better record if you look at the US in SE Asia.
Indeed, the great success of the Borneo campaign in the mid 60's, allowed the UK, reluctantly for some maybe, to finally withdraw from the £ Sterling sapping garrisons 'East Of Suez'.
The US was not pleased as Vietnam escalated, but it had been US policy for a very long time to undermine this sort of UK presence, until suddenly this did not suit them anymore.
Like the requests to provide a political troop commitment to Vietnam, the government of the day said no.
However these cuts did allow an improvement of forces back in NATO facing the USSR.
Back to Afghanistan, maybe if so few US troops had not been sent there in 2001, instead relying on easily bribed, brutal warlords, then letting the place fester for some years, then asking NATO troops to go fill that gap, the situation would not be as bad there now, with fewer Union Jack draped coffins coming home all too often.
In 2001, NATO offered without limits, help for Afghanistan, Rumsfeld knew better and rebuffed them, Bin Laden got clean away, the Taliban were not destroyed.
Or as one TV correspondent said at the base of Tora Bora, 'there are more of us here than US troops'.
(And in Tora Bora, it was UK and Australian special forces doing the work, up close and brutal, until the US called them off, the US Army 101st Airborne were going to take over, trouble is, they took ages to get in position and Tora Bora was by then empty, apart from those already killed and captured by the SAS).
Since the end of WW2, only the year of 1968 has not seen British forces in action somewhere.
Who is being 'carried' here?
Even in Northern Ireland, the Provisional IRA as they emerged in 1971, was a Marxist organisation, (they left that bit out when fundraising and getting guns in the US).
Despite some being convicted of murder, no IRA man hiding in the USA was ever extradited to the UK.
'Political prisoners' apparently, so that's true of Islamists elesewhere then, now the US has had a taste of terrorism?
Thought not.
Sorry for the length of this, but I've friends in the British Army who've been to Iraq, will go to Afghanistan, so those like Old South who seem to think the world owes the US, should think on.
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#71 sonicboomer
You have put down so many lines of thought
that I feel strongly about..
Thank you...
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Marcus: You're (unfortunately) entitled to post your own hate filled rubbish here, but please don't EVER dare to speak for me again.
"Those young men in the UK who were born in Kenya or whose ancestors were, may technically be British citizens but the majority of the British population doesn't see them that way."
Statements like this should be disallowed without some sort of evidence.
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#71. Great post. It's good to put the present world situation in context once in a while. UK has been through a lot of situations that some in the USA would imply are unique to their own country currently. We certainly didn't always get it right but we continue to try, and that includes those major commitments in Afghanistan and Iraq.
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71 SONICBOOMER
Wow! I don't know what to say. I presume you read my #36.
What I know is Canada has suffered 107 casualties (the third highest) with the first four killed by American friendly fire - what a euphemism! That was a real blow to Canada!
It was a big step for us to send troops as up until Afghanistan we viewed ourselves as Peacekeepers. To have four killed by our friends sent the country into deep mourning.
We too are shouldering more than our share of the burden and have far too many coffins draped with the Maple Leaf.
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#71. sonicboomer
you are my hero - I could not have said it better myself. Not to put words into MAII's perfect gob, I don't mean I couldn't say it, just that you put it so unquestioningly correct. Thanks
Continuing the line - I wonder if MAII realises that in the early years of the 1930s, and heading toward the outbreak of war (our war - the one that started in 1939, not 1941), the US had trade in place with Germany. Nothing wrong with that, but when Germany began its' invasion plans around Europe, the US were still trading with Germany. Do you know what they were trading?
Oil.
The US traded oil for the fuel needed for war with Nazi Germany at the beginning of WWII. To the US, it was something that was going on 'over there' and obviously didn't really affect the US.
MAII, you might be an intelligent man, you might be just someone who quotes chapter and verse without really knowing what it is you are spurting, but I do respect your opinion, flawed though it is. It might be interesting for you to know, although I very much doubt it, that from 1939 thru 1942 hundreds upon hundreds of US and Canadian pilots VOLUNTEERED - yep (yes) - volunteered, for the Royal Air Force - to fight alongside - not for, not to 'rescue' but alongside our own brave fighter and bomber pilots on night raids over Germany. And remember, there were no laser guided, computer controlled, accurate bombing campaigns back then. It was my grandfathers time and aviation had not been long out of the bi-plane stage.
I'm ex RAF and still work in aviation and it is a fact about WWII that I feel proud of, that US volunteers came to fly alongside our boys to help, because they wanted to. This was before the Japanese declared war on the US and attacked Pearl Harbour. There were no US forces on UK soil other than volunteers.
Think on that, the next time you feel you need to issue any kind of tirade against us Brits.
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in Ref. to 77
Yes, there are Indian Catholics...
My Governor is one! :D
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#79. BienvenueEnLouisiana: "Yes, there are Indian Catholics... My Governor is one! :D"
Yes, but Governor Jindal was born and lives in America! Interesting that he converted from Hinduism in high school. I wonder how that came about? Peer pressure, looking to the future or true convert? (And he's hardly going to be wearing a headscarf!)
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71 sonic .
another great piece.
Boomshanka.
Extradition on terrorism charges has always been a thorn for those that know it happens.
rarely was the lack of co-opration from the US noticed until 9/11 then here they started to think, hmm terrorists.
Just before 9/11 some lady was being sought by the UK for charges , but was appealing in the US as a political refugee facing politically motivated punishment if returned.
I lived in a house as a kid surrounded by screaming protesters through the time of Bobby Sands.(not vicious) So have seen how supportive of terrorists America is when they are not effecting them.
And wars
1968 was a good year.
Not that I can remember it.
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80 David_Cunard
I do not know for a fact, but would not some of Mother Teresa's sisters be Indian?
Not sure about your suggestion that a devote Catholic on her way to or from religious services would stop in to be an immigration officer.
The thought of the Queen moonlighting is still an amusing one!
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76, agreed that the 2002 incident was awful, it's happened to British forces too, however, we've had our own incidents only involving UK forces.
'The fog of war' (a fog that maybe is thicker with the capabilities of modern weapon systems?)
I do think that the idea of pure peacekeeping in the traditional sense is gone.
What happened in the former Yugoslavia in the 1990's showed that, sticking a tiny group of very lightly armed peacekeepers between civilians and a heavily armed group bent on massacre, no longer can be allowed.
So those employed in this role have to be able to switch to full on warfighting, if need be.
Afghanistan shows us that the Canadians can do that, because they are very professional.
It's been said that since Obama is very popular worldwide, his requests for some NATO members to contribute more will be much harder to refuse, I'm not so sure.
I suspect those who will give more will be the ones who already do so anyway.
To the race issue, fear of 'the other' in some is true everywhere to an extent.
As has been mentioned, the UK only experienced any kind of influx of different races after WW2.
(Since in 1945, the British government allowed right of entry to the whole 'Empire'/Commonwealth, then a quarter of humanity).
Granted it was thought that few would actually come, but quite a lot did.
After all, many of them came from places where those who fought with us in the war had volunteered to do so.
Today, other races still make up a much smaller proportion of the UK population than the US, there have been problems, but they always had the right to vote.
I come from, and still live near/work at Heathrow Airport, all my life those who came from places like the Indian Subcontinent and those born here to them, have been a fact of life for me.
My better half has Indian parents, but she was born here in the early 1970's and sees herself as British.
Which of course she is, in every way.
I can imagine a future Prime Minister whose descendents came from those far off places once coloured on a map in red.
A minister, David Lammy, has West Indian origins and has met Obama on a couple of occasions.
Though of course here the political system here is much more party structured, leaders tend not to come from seemingly nowhere.
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Obama was finally proclaimed president of the United States of America on January 20, 2009. No other US president has been greeted like this by the world, and at no other time in history the victory of a US president has been perceived as a personal triumph for so many people around the world.
We, the world, have come out of eight years of pure grief with the departure of Mr. George W. Bush. Most of us didn’t have a say into the election of Mr. George W. Bush, but unfortunately we, together with those that made it happen, have paid a high price. I think no other president in US history has faced the challenges Obama faces today; it will be redundant to repeat them.
I am 45 years old and studied political science at a university in the United States of America. Me like many of my foreign classmates at that time, shared a fashionable anti-imperialist sentiment, and were critical of US foreign policies. Those were the times of Ronald Regan, and even though we didn’t agree with him, looking back, he was harmless. Somehow it was cool to be in the opposition. That young generation of then, is also the generation of Barak and Michelle Obama.
I have three children the younger two about the same age as the Obama’s children. Somehow George W. Bush in the past eight years showed us a world we don’t want to leave behind for our children; most of what we see today is war and chaos.
For generations the world has lived in a schizophrenic state between loving and hating the United States of America. Sitting in South Africa, watching the news, I saw there had been many public viewings of Obama’s inauguration all over the world, not necessarily organized by Americans, united in a common mantra “yes we can”. My generation of sceptics; the generation before us; and the generation ahead of us, we are all rallying today behind Obama celebrating his victory in every corner of the world.
How did that happened? We suddenly feel included in the exclusive club of US citizens. Obama will be the easy answer; I think it goes beyond Obama. The eight years of Mr. Bush, showed us the atrocities caused by power in the wrong hands; Left us with a world that is laying in intensive care. The adversity of the moment has brought us together; we are here today united hopping for peace and prosperity for all. I am still critical of US foreign policy, but for the first time in my lifetime, me and millions of non-Americans, we stand behind the president of the United States of America as if it was ours. We need peace.
Pretoria, South Africa
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85 hildalanas
"I am still critical of US foreign policy, but for the first time in my lifetime, me and millions of non-Americans, we stand behind the president of the United States of America as if it was ours. We need peace."
As a fellow non-American I agree. Well said!
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I'd love to see Magic attempt to justify this.
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And another for magic. I support Israel defending itself. This is something else.
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87 seanspa
"Newfoundlanders at war"
That's it. Tragic isn't it? They were used as cannon fodder. Can you even begin to imagine the impact on Newfoundland? Oh! and this was during the 1914 -1918 war.
Newfoundlanders are wonderful people. Great story tellers, salt of the earth, give you the shirt off their backs kind of people. And humourous! They have their own accent which is sometimes hard to understand and use "interesting" expressions. They have terrific names for their towns, such as Happy Valley - Goose Bay, where many of the 911 planes landed when the US airports were closed. Google "Newfoundland place names" to see examples.
Watch the Rick Mercer Report on the CBC - he's a Newfoundlander. You won't regret it and will learn a lot about Canada and ...how funny we can be.
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timewaits, this chap? I'm watching the winter driving video- useful right now, and very funny.
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SHLA2UK, My stepfather was a Canadian RaF volunteer. Brave folk. And you know who was involved in some of that US trading with the Nazis? Only George W's granddaddy, Prescott Bush.... A good part of the family fortune was built on that. Just for interest
Hilda, Thanks for that. Well said.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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91 seanspa
Yes, that is the Rick Mercer, with clips of his show. If you get the CBC watch on Tuesday nights. It is helpful if you are up on current Canadian events. Many famous Canadians appear on the show. All in good fun.
I went to the google page and found myself clicking all over. Some of the clips on youtube are priceless. Have fun!
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Naturally, we all respond to "America's Moment". How the world will respond to this moment is in many ways, but I suggest three complimentary emotions that likely reflect global reality.
What the world will respond to involves very real perceptions of humanity. Those perceptions register with illegal U.S. weapons attacking the U.N. along with hundreds of thousands of children locked into a city and slaughtered by a most favored U.S. ally. General Dynamic Weapons slaughtered Palestine's innocence as Obama touted his General Dynamic custom Blueberry. U.S. business as usual. The usual is brightly colored by racist language.
Three billion people wonder (seldom entirely politely) at an almost genetically ingrained ignorance attached to Obama's first moment by Caucasian media. Fundamental ignorance because again and again that media makes a very unpleasant assumption about what Obama now governs. Most people are not Caucasian and are not colonial. North America is occupied by the Caucasian econo-military complex. American peoples seeking justice in the United States are today herded into miniscule reserves and striped of virtually all rights. "America" always defining "Causcaian Occupation" in any global context has a very shallow ring to it. It is as if Europeans thought that 4 billion people living on Earth would accept America belonged to Caucasians because they call their colonial citizens "americans". It is as if Caucasians think the world will believe the various criminal regimes occupying the Americas found two continents deserted when they arrived. Well, not only in South America and North America, this is changing as indigenous populations assert their governance. Obama, like every tyrant, is full of desire for change and improvement, but hopelessly incapable. That innocent incompetance brought tears to my eyes until his relationship with General Dynamic brought his global focus back to reality.
My mother was Haudenosaunee. We enjoyed democracy in a matrilineal society for at least a thousand years before Abe adapted it to his "United States". The world will respond to the U.S. 2009 election as we do. Sometimes without a most generous and appropriate disdain.
He is African-Caucasian. Not again. What next?
(For my own part, I truly hope we don't have to face down another Osamma or Rassam ... or worse - but undoubtedly, given the colony's petulence, most certainly it is coming and impacts all who live here. That is America's moment.)
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77. David_Cunard wrote:
#61. british-ish:
Are there actually Indian or Pakistani Catholics?
Must be, I've met one Indian (British Indian, I mean) Catholic boy. Not something you tend to ask. Bit surprised recently to discover someone whose family is from Iran was a Zorastrian.
Perhaps that's why we don't as a rule bother about someone's religion. You can end up putting your foot in it so easily. . .
(We've all learnt to get used to devout Muslims praying five times a day. I was in hospital for a few days two years ago, and in the ward we were all feeling terribly awkward -- very English! -- one morning because none of us were too sure which way Mecca was from there for a bloke. Fortunately, one of the nurses knew, and it turned out you could borrow a 'Mecca compass' if you wanted to get it absolutely right which I didn't know before.
Bit irrelevant, but I'd just like to point out to MAII -- and anybody who still takes him seriously -- how much things have changed since the days of the Ealing Comedies or wherever he gets his notions from.)
84. timewaitsfornoman wrote:
I was one - not that I was born at the time but... When I did think perhaps I should apply for a UK passport (my mother being born there), found the rules had changed and it was only through my paternal line!
Hmm. Was it Thatcher that did that? I'm one of many who really don't care for the (regrettably increasing) restrictions on who can become British, or even who can come here at all.
(I've got this sort of wistful hope that all the anglo-saxons with views like that fake emperor's will gradually simply be outbred by decent people from all around the world and go extinct.)
Apparently we've just become the most densely populated country in the world (except for Gaza) overtaking Holland (so that's why the Tube and the buses are so packed) which I find a bit surprising, and that's being used as an excuse, but I'm sure there's still room for a few more.
(I see the Commonwealth's ganging up together!)
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sonicboomer ukwales marcusaureliusii hildalanas and a dozen other spinning heads ...
"America's Moment" is puntuated by a market tragedy. Royal Trust owned much of U.S. realty (80-90%) at the outset of the downturn that disgraced George and his Republican party. Those investments destroyed the U.S. economy due to U.S. mismanagement, and ultimately the cost of war. We recall the seeds for today's fiscal woes followed on the heels of George's criminal (they say it violated law) war for daddy's pipeline from Iran through Iraq (Haliburton - yes, 70% of the Iraq troop asset). The Dutch through the Livingston proxy own ALL of the major U.S. shipping, transport and warehousing interests and appear to have faith in Barrack. These are facts upon which Barrack's personal victories balance. In this context of the "moment", is European intervention and diplomacy purely crippling, or helpful?
In the real world, the role of the U.S. has been as a "Bull Dog". President Obama asked that we all do our part. He states with deep passion that we must form a democracy where we can prosper peacefully. At present, billions cringe when the U.S. sighs. That lack of trust has to be repaired. For our market and for our security. Six decades of brutality will not heal in a dozen terms, but a move toward peace is required. The U.S. is going to attempt to do this on it's own? Israel is absolutely a pariah. Germany is only interested in what lies beyond our moment - those were Merkles' very thoughts.
This is one aspect of the polities attached to the moment created by Barrack as he sought and assumed presidency - that good intentions may find a way to correct a policy and direction "lost in aggression" (previously and correctly attributed in this forum to a long string of Presidents). With Israel facing war crimes after assaulting numeous UN buildings with illegal chemical weapons and gunning down hundreds of young children, with the 44th President pushed by the military into using its own custom telephone to conduct personal communications, with nepotism and gross excesses of wealth impoverishing almost 50% of her poopulation, with overseas conflict and intelligence spinning out of control harrowing decades of excess, the United States is in a very, very grave and dangerous place.
How do we as human beings help the U.S. to find peace in a world where it has launched more wars than years since Hitler was defeated? "America's Moment" has addressed feelings in the persons of a man and a mother who declare hope to inspire change and propel peace. They are offering us an alternative to an ugly colonial war machine. I feel for those mercenaries who suffer that reality with their conscience and blood. I love U.S. people's urgent claims to freedom, but really! Where did you come from? The world seriously, seriously needs to repair that parent culture realtionship as well. Not just the United States, but Europe in addition to Africa and Asia and all nations claiming branches in the Americas. What would happen if we handed our military to street urchins? Consequences.
Perhaps people who find all this "Moment" and "Change" too complex to consider would need a comparative tale. Imagine an officer with a baton in a mall full of Sunday shoppers. Now imagine that fearing someone might be a shop lifter, that baton began hitting dozens, knocking them bloody, senseless and dead. Is that the kind of security you want in your community mall?
"This is the moment ... it is not going to be easy."
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I must apologise for my posting in #87. We get away with going OT at any time, to any place - except to link to something about the tragedy that befell Newfoundland in WWI. I'll not make that mistake again.
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97 seanspa
I know! I was told I was off topic but since my post was longer than yours had no idea where until I saw you were removed also. My apologies for getting you involved.
I too will try not to make that mistake again.
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timewaits, I certainly won't post a link to this again. I wouldn't want some crazy canuck getting me into trouble.
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94/96 democraticOath
I have read your posts with much interest and with a great deal of agreement.
May I ask which nation your mother is from. I ask because I live in Montreal and therefore know many people of the Mohawk nation. I admit I had never heard the word Haudenosaunee before. Would you translate it please? I will ask someone how to pronounce it!
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96; While I was opposed to Iraq, appalled by US policy in South and Central America for decades, think the Cuba embargo is pure spite, thought the conduct of the Vietnam War was at times like something out of a Kurt Vonnegut novel, I can not say they are/were always wrong.
Because more often than not, they were right.
It is unfair to expect perfection, no nation is innocent.
The nation building the US did after WW2, though in their own interests, was surely right.
Look at Japan, run once by a bloodthirsty military whose crimes often matched those of Nazi Germany.
The US transformed it into a peaceful and democratic nation, who'd have thought Doug McArthur would have been as enlightened, but here he was.
The US also resisted the temptation to emasculate Germany into some kind of pure rural state preserved in aspic.
Despite what their and other troops had just found in those death camps.
The US was the leader in stopping the advance of Soviet Communism, (remember Stalin's crimes), in doing so they sometimes got it badly wrong.
The more you do, the more prospects for error.
What I mentioned in the positive above was done when the US had great leaders more often than not.
We may disagree, we may see things differently sometimes, but for my country, the UK, the USA remains our most important ally.
The very poor leadership of the past 8 years has for many here, put a serious strain on that idea.
I am optimistic the change in leadership now will reverse that strain.
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Snow tires are for wimps. I've got away so far (touch wood) with siped all season tires. I'm devilishly good, don't you know.
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101 SONICBOOMER
I responded to your previous post, but the moderators said I was "Off Topic" and removed it. Do not know if you had time to read it first. Seanspa then responded to my post so he too was removed. See 97/98.
99 explains what was off topic.
I agree with your post. The US and UK are our allies and we like to think they can count on us, but as you say the last eight years made it difficult.
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103 seanspa
Were you not paying attention during the Rick Mercer Report? Or do you picture yourself Idaho's own Major General Lewis MacKenzie? He of the lost race.
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Forgot about the Cuban embargo.
surely he'll revoke that now? End the needles suffering.....of those looking for good quality cuban cigars!!
Seriously though, there are few things more bully like that an embargo that does nothing other that hurt innocent people. I've yet to hear of one that works!
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The general only just lost - and Rick was overconfident with his winter tires and was all over the place.
The drivers to watch out for here are the ones in 4 x 4 pickups, for the same reason. They think they are invincible.
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89
That is sick.
sorry to have ever doubted you.
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89. At 10:46pm on 22 Jan 2009, seanspa wrote:
And another for magic. I support Israel defending itself."
Yes but no nation has the absolute right to "defend itself" regardless.
Otherwise we agree India has the right to nuke Pakistan and vice versa.
All conquerors from Caesar to Hitler asserted they were operating in "sefl-defense" and for "security reasons".
Russia invaded Hungary and Czechoslovakia for the same reasons. Don't remember the US offering to give the russians artillery shells to bombard the barricades.
Israelis do not see Palestinians as human beings and appeasing them only encourages this.
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Simon, you are in such a rush to shoot down posts, you don't even bother to read them first. You're a fool.
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U.S., have we lost our way?
Let's review Barrack's rhetorical moment, shall we?
“tribes shall dissolve … those who stifle, dissent will be defeated ... slaughter of innocence”
Obama and his GD Blueberry
January 23, 2009 he okay’d the GD chemical bombing of UN and SLAUGHTER of children / criminal posturing, his 1st campaign (admin’s 84th)
! this boat is sinking !
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