Stimulus talk
Nobody knows whether it will work, but plenty of people are gearing up for a spending spree, though judging by most of the local paper coverage (for instance this or this) the stimulus bill is hardly a charter for a splurge on useless projects that benefit no-one.
The real question is whether the money will surge into the economy or drip in. The latter is probably no good.
As for the Republicans, well they have taken a gamble and it is at least possible that the result will be a time in the wilderness as the nation recovers and names newly-opened schoolrooms and roads and smartgrid emporiums after Barack H Obama...
Or there again, if that doesn't happen, Republicans could find themselves back in fashion, though only if they have something to say - this advice (don't filibuster and play nicely) is surely wise.'
Hello, I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~37~RS~)
Comments
Not for the first time I've realised how thick I am...
I thought this '$ 800 billion' stimulus package was, like one of Tony Blair's fabled announcements, just the '$ 700 bn' which Bush had 'announced' with a top-up of a $100 billion to make it more 'fit for purpose' before being pushed through the legislature.
The idea that the cost of this crisis is now well north of TWO TRILLION DOLLARS really does prompt me to think how much leverage [oops, sorry, poor choice of word] will have in the next 4 or even 8 years.
What was it someone said 'A billion here, and a billion there, and soon, you're talking serious money..'
Perhaps that is out of date already and needs to be changed to 'a trillion here and a trillion there..'
Complain about this comment
Stimulass will fail to bring a lessening in the disparity in wealth here,and will just make those rich enough to own companies richer.
In the steel fabrication industry the bosses will continue to make money hand over fist. But the workers will still get near min wage.
So the disparity will get worse.
Oregon GDP went up last 8 years. Wages went down.
Unless at he top.
Companies that refuse to provide air extraction let alone health care will still get the Jobs.
because they are so ruthless that is all we have left.
Those that provide extraction and benefits are already out of business.
Those that lay off after min wages will keep afloat.
I see this in the steel industry.I suspect it is the same in most.
Unless a new contract is drawn up for the people of america.
Complain about this comment
The problem surely is that no one knows the size of the problem to be addressed, so spending packages are shots in the dark until the major players come clean.
On the other hand calling something the "stimulus bill" is an act of genius.
It makes it sound very exciting, or at least interesting - who can object to being "stimulated".
Complain about this comment
Some of the concerns and recommendations made by Republicans are worthy of consideration, but they must avoid being viewed as obstructionists or contributors to what could easily become the second Great Depression if they want to remain a viable political alternative in the future.
Most importantly, they must understand that the irresponsible tax breaks to large corporations and the wealthiest Americans will only accumulate more debt and will not stimulate the economy. Giving money to Wall Street and the Bernie Madoffs of this world only benefit a small segment of our society.
The strategy must be focused on measures designed to sustain an economic recovery over a couple of years, rather than limit it to a mild or short boost to cash strapped small businesses and unemployed individuals.
Complain about this comment
I'm not sure where the BBC gets off claiming that Obama sought "bipartisanship" in pushing his stimulus package. He is quoted as telling Republicans in discussions over the stimulus package that "I won" and that it was Democrat ideology, regardless of its offensiveness to Republicans, that would be dictating the nature of the package--which is exactly what happened. It was that absolutely partisan attitude that led to the Republicans unanimously voting against his package. That unanimous dissent was a message that "I won" is an unacceptable attitude for discussions and that he'd better start working with them, or they will unite against him.
But the BBC doesn't seem interested in reporting on that angle, or even on that infamous (in America) discussion, as it could sully the image of Saint Barack, the man of hope. It's all on those grumpy Republicans. What-the-hell-ever. If that's the kind of one-dimensional political reporting I can expect from the BBC, it's going to be a boring four years.
Complain about this comment
The stimulus package is probably too little too late. It will help some Americans temporarily but it will not cure the underlying problem, vast amounts of uncollectable debt. Here's what I think will work to avert a looming international depression. The US government will need to print somewhere between 5 and 15 trillion dollars to rapidly deflate the value of dollars, dollar denominated debt, and will cause massive inflation. This will allow debtors who owe mortgages, car loans, credit card loans, and the biggest debtor of all, the US government to pay down all of this debt with the newly minted money. Only the United States could get away with such a tactic. This will pay back creditors pennies on the dollar in real monetary value taking into account what their debt would buy today but the alternative is massive default on practically all debt. This action will force other nations to do the same or be priced out of the US market which drives all other economies of the world either directly or indirectly. The other step that would help would be a case brought in federal court that would result in a ruling that all credit default swaps contracts are null and void because they fraudulently misrepresented the risk. This the result of failure by the originators of loans to check the borrowers' credit rating, use standard risk assessment techniques, and exercise other responsible fuduciary practices in their issuance. A lot of people, banks, and governments will be left holding the bag but at least there will be a bag to hold. And of course, re-imposition of strong tight rigidly enforced regulations that not only force banks to lend responsibly but include other types of institutions that function as banks that previously fell outside classifications that would require them to comply. Fortunately, Democrats have shown a proclivity to print money and trigger inflation in the past every time the US government or economy has been in trouble before, and it always works much to the chagrin of Republicans whose friends are the bankers that will get burned.
Complain about this comment
To #5, jpetrisor
Hmmm your source is Fox news. How unexpected!
Obama has sued that form of humour before, when he said "my biggest weakness is that I'm too awesome".
Plus it's not nearly as bad as some of awful, innappropriate "jokes" Bush has come out with in his time.
"It's all on those grumpy Republicans. What-the-hell-ever. If that's the kind of one-dimensional political reporting I can expect from the BBC, it's going to be a boring four years."
Wow, it's almost a self-fufilling prophecy there, you do sound rather grumpy.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think Obama is anywhere near perfect, but if you don't like the BBC's news and prefer Fox's, I'm sure we won't mind if you jump ship.
Complain about this comment
"Loyal Opposition" is a British parliamentary term which doesn't translate well to the American political system.
I'm not a Democrat, but I think the Republicans are incorrigible. The best thing that could happen to them is to be consigned to the "wilderness" for 30 years or so, until all of the ideologues have died off, and a new generation takes over the party.
Complain about this comment
lordBeddGelert (#1), you are paraphrasing the late Everett Dirkson, a (Republican) US Senator from Illinois.
Complain about this comment
To MAII #6
Printing a load of money? Like Zimbabwe did/does?
I don't think that will help. Inflation nor hyperinflation is a solution.
Printing money is a risky business. Obviously with the dollar being a global currency it could get away with it. Or everyone will switch currencies (most likely the euro).
In the long run it wont work, but then again neither will a stimulus package.
In my opinion the government should just stay out of it, and let the inefficient firms dissappear form the economy. obviously this would be awful for jobs though :(
Catch 22 anyone?
Complain about this comment
Quoting from the Nebraska article:
According to the analysis, Nebraska would receive $377 million in general budget assistance under the bill, intended to support state budgets at a time of plummeting revenue. Language in the bill earmarks almost two-thirds of that for K-12 schools and universities, but the state would have discretion to spend other dollars.
In other words, we're borrowing 800 something billion dollars from thre rest of the world, and will pay interest on it forever(assuming we don't default), to prop up state governments(including my own here down South) that refuse to make hard choices about what is and is not vital, what must remain and what must go.
As Senator Thompson keeps repeating: 'We're just kicking the can down the road.'
All the local articles you cited reiterate the same theme--using these funds to prop up current operations or expand the reach of state government. Some may get spent on a road or bridge here or there, but most will sink into a black hole, and my unborn grandchildren will pay for it with confiscatory taxes and lowered living standards.
All parties everywhere wish Mr. Obama well, but this course of action is folly, utter folly. The GOP did well to oppose on principle, publicly, without filibuster, and let the issue before the country be the Democrats' irresponsibility.
Significantly, the 'Blue Dog' Democrats did side with the GOP, and their ranks may grow as constituents wake up and begin to communicate with their Democrat members.
(I just wish they had shown some early courage by voting against Pelosi as speaker.)
Complain about this comment
"I think it is very important that his administration is treated with scepticism, the same scepticism we would use about any other incoming administration."
Justin Webb, Feedback, BBC R4, 7 November.
Still waiting, Justin. Why do you persist in spinning the stimulus as primarily an infrastructure plan? It isn't. Not even close. Even Chris "tingle up my leg" Matthews is showing more scepticism about this than the BBC.
Complain about this comment
Thank you MarcusAureliusII for the biggest laugh you have given me in ages.
The methods you propose would be inflationary to say the least and would need higher interest rates to counter. This would thus increase interest payments on debts-maybe not in the short-term but definitely in the medium-term. Business and consumer borrowing and lending would collapse.
Higher interest rates enourage saving, not consumer spending. Businesses save profits rather than reinvest. So you have rabid inflation, interest rates and falling spending.
If you failed to increase interest rates then no-one saves, money is spent before it loses value and you have a situation that resembles Zimbabwe.
Printing money only works in the short-term and as only as long as it monetary growth matches economic growth.
The other methods you propose (Federal court case re debt swops)would effectively wipe out every lending institution in the US. You are crazily talking about wiping out every bank!
Marcus, you are certainly no economist. I wish you luck at the Zimbabwean Treasury, you will fit in like a dream!!!
Complain about this comment
What recession?
So, what else is new?And how has the former Poodle fared, I wonder....Peace and fair shares
ed
Complain about this comment
11
waste like the 7.6 million spent on trying to prevent a hippy getting a smoke per year.
or the housing of 80,000 people for pot.
Complain about this comment
I hope I said Billion there.
If so sorry to write this if not I should have.
Complain about this comment
With money you can create jobs; without money you cannot create a single job, This is the only way because there is no other way. Can someone come up with a better way, if not, give President Obama the money to create jobs for the down and out.
Capitalism is consumerism. Without the consumer capitalism is dead.
During the Great Depression, Roosevelt spent and spent to create jobs. Then came the Second War, the Greatest Consumer of them all; millions of human lives, billions of dollars, millions of tons of raw materials, millions of weapons, millions of tons of oil and millions were put to work to make weapons of destruction.
There is a right way as well as a wrong way to get out the mess
Complain about this comment
The trouble is 'bipartisanship' assumes that there is an area in which the parties agree, and any apparent disagreement stems from the desire of each party to be seen to be the one making the running.
However, in this case, most of the right realy thinks the stimulus is a bad thing (just as Democrats disagreed with Bush's social security reform). Whether the Republicans were right to reject Obama's overtures will thus turn on the actual outcome (though that may be hard to see, given that they will now have an interest in sabotaging the actual implementation).
The problem for the future of America, then, is that if the stimulus fails it will be because it's too small (Paul Krugman really is required reading these days), but people will blame it for being too large, and destroy their country with a retreat into Hooverism.
Complain about this comment
All: No question that multi-order financial transactions need to be made unlawful (e.g. a transaction based on leverage based on leverage based on leverage, etc.). First or second-order only, please. All transactions should be traceable to the real assets (whatever they are) that form the basis for the transaction.
With regard to "who's to blame", let's get level here for a minute. Since the latter half of the 1960s, both political parties have been in charge of Congress. Neither party while in charge has properly managed Social Security or Medicare/Medicaid. The current unfunded obligations for SS/Medicare/Medicaid now amount to about $43 TRILLION dollars, almost 300% MORE THAN the "acknowledged" debt of $11 trillion. Taken together, the US is some $54 TRILLION in DEBT. Does that sound anything like fiscal responsibility to you? Not to me.
Since both parties have shown that their management of the budget amounts to using Federal tax revenues to pay off contributors (job 1, unfortunately), reward friends, and punish enemies, how can anyone expect them to do anything other than more of the same? Most important, how can anyone on this planet expect Obama to be able to do ANYTHING about this? He's the President, not a king, and he doesn't have any authority over the budget in the final analysis. Remember the Reagan budgets of the 80s, where the Dems gleefully pronounced every one of his budgets "dead on arrival" and substituted their own???
Entirely too much attention has been paid to the Presidency, and nowhere near enough to the Congress. Of course, those who like to purchase political influence like that just fine, because (a) it's better return on investment to purchase the Congress than the Presidency, because they stay in office longer, and (b) purchasing the Congress (particularly the staffers) garners less attention, since nobody really has their eyes on the Congress.
What a system. If we want peaceful change on these issues, the place it starts in America is by focusing very intense and unrelenting attention on the members and staffers of Congress. It should continue by persuading the current membership that they should leave the offices to new blood, and by persuading the current staffers that they would do very well to seek employment elsewhere. It completes by passage of Constitutional amendments (a) making it impossible for the Congress to unbalance the budget more than 2 years in a row, (b) forcing the outyear maintenance for every item owned by the Federal government to be automatically added without possibility of removal to outyear budgets, (c) making it illegal to declare anything "off-budget", (d) requiring some percentage of tax revenues to be applied every year to debt retirement until the debt is retired (probably a 75-year plan for that one), (e) requiring standard accounting principles to be applied to all financial transactions, including all those undertaken by the Federal government, and (f) putting all Congressional staffers under the equivalent of civil service law with respect to their personal conduct. That won't fix all of it, but by reducing the ability for influence to be bought and sold in the Congress, a certain degree of sanity will be restored to the Federal processes.
I don't expect any of this to happen, but it should be what we should be pushing for.
Complain about this comment
The new Administration is moving full steam to tackle the mountain of problems left by the outgoing Administration. Now is the time for all Americans, especially politicians from the two main parties, to realise that they have an ardent, capable President who really wants the economy to start ticking again through responsible fiscal management and spending. So cooperation rather than obstruction should be the way forward. But alas the Republicans have decided to oppose President Obama's stimulus plan tooth and nail. There is a time for politics but not when the nation and the world are going through tough economic times. Come on Republicans the country does not need to bleed. In bad economic times, there needs to be level-headedness and wise strategical thinking. People's jobs and livelihoods are at stake!
Complain about this comment
arclightt (#19), I don't disagree with your analysis, and agree that Congress is largely responsible, but I disagree with your solution. Details of policy do not belong in the Constitution, in my opinion.
Complain about this comment
Justin:
I have to disagreed with you, I remember that President Obama told the Republicans, that the Democrats won....to that affect...
~Dennis Junior~
Complain about this comment
I hope money in Obama"s plan work's.
A lot people are without a job.
Complain about this comment
#1
Lord,
I was confused too. I'd just finished getting myself ready for a huge stimulus as well. Imagine my suprise when it turned out that it wasn't at all what I was expecting but had something to do with fiscal policy.
Time to put the handcuffs and the chocolate sauce away.
Kinky Sam
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I gotta say, it looks like Louisiana really is recession proof.
Louisiana added 3,000 jobs in December 2008, the only state in the nation to post a monthly gain, continuing a trend that saw Louisiana gain jobs during all months of 2008-except September (hurricane Gustav).
--Louisiana Workforce Commission
But we will still gladly accept some of that stimulus package from the Feds.
National and foreign investors are welcome in these tough times.
Complain about this comment
#13
Tiger,
Nicely put. One aspect you missedis the effect on asset values of this type of monetary stimulus i.e to drive them through the floor. So poor folks who lose their jobs or who are on fixed incomes (pensioners) find the cost of living escalated at the very time they cannot sell any assets, be they house, car, stocks, because they are worth nothing.
Once again Marco la Grenouille shows himself as wanting to harm America. He wants to ruin our people and drive down the price of our companies so they can purchased by his Frenchy countrymen at a cut price. Then ruined.
Tough lucky Auralianus. Us Yankees are far too wise to do anything that stupid.
Economist Sam
Complain about this comment
Ref 10
"In my opinion the government should just stay out of it, and let the inefficient firms dissappear form the economy. obviously this would be awful for jobs though"
Letting our economy and capitalist system collapse is not an option for this or any other administration.
The government must intervene with a combination of financial stimulus designed to limit further deterioration of the economy and get things moving again, must pursue fiscal stabilization, may have to print more money to offset the effects of our national debt, must address the State budget crises, must do everything possible to create new jobs or, as a minimum, stop job losses, must find ways to mitigate the effects of corporate debt on their ability to compete and remain solvent, and must put in place regulatory practices designed to prevent reccurrences.
Limiting our focus on making President Bush's tax cuts to the rich permanent is hardly the way to go. That was actually a contributing factor for the mess we are in.
I believe, however, that a two-week sabbatical would be advisable, to allow every congressman and senator time to go to their respective districts and states and discuss our current situation with their constituents, including those who are unemployed abd business owners on the verge of bankruptcy, before they make decisions based strictly on ideology.
The problem is not that the recovery plan is too large, but that it is not large enough to make a lasting impact on the economy.
Complain about this comment
Bien.. (#26), do you suppose it may be that Louisiana is growing jobs because of the need to rebuild so much of what was lost in Hurricane Katrina? What are the job numbers compared to just before Katrina?
Complain about this comment
To#19Arclightt
From your lips to god's ear!
We DO need to be holding Congress more accountable. These people having been playing a Monopoly Game with our money. On the whole, we have allowed them to do this so we also have to take some responsibility, as well.
I say it is time to toast their toes on the fires of our collective wrath so that we get the most from our tax dollars instead of a few crumbs from an empty table.
Complain about this comment
To#26Bienvenuelouisiana
I am happy to read your post. Your state has suffered terribly from the hurricanes. High unemployment would just be too much.
My state would welcome all investors, as well. We have rising unemployment, high foreclosure rates for homeowners and our State Legislature has chosen to 'fix' the budget by robbing our children.
The largest cuts will be in education and health care for children. We already rank 49th in Education and child welfare. I do not know how far you can go below 50th but this state is working on that!
Complain about this comment
#5: "I won" was apparently an acceptable attitude for so-called discussions when Bush was president and Republicans were in control of Congress. It's rather amusing to watch the outrage from Republicans when the shoe is almost on the other foot. I say "almost" because Obama has reached out in a way that Bush never bothered to.
Yes, Obama did win. And it's a darned good thing for the country that he did.
Republicans need to understand that "bipartisan" does not mean that they will continue to get their way in everything. I'll repeat: Obama won. The Democrats won. It's going to be different now.
Complain about this comment
To#27Samtyler1969
I am not an economist but you and Tigermilkboy have this one nailed down.
Printing money with nothing to back it up is just production of paper that can be used in an outhouse. Just hope that they use soft paper.
I am a child of the Depression. My parents emigrated after the first world war when all was chaos in many places and printed money was nearly worthless. I was taught that a paper dollar was only worth what could back it up.
Maybe we should all save our Monopoly Game money?
Complain about this comment
I answered my own question about Louisiana jobs using the Bureau of Labor Statistics website:
http://www.bls.gov/data/
Try it for yourself. Select 2005 through 2008 for Louisiana and enable graphs.
Remember the old adage about categories of lies: there are lies, damn lies, and statistics!
Complain about this comment
Does anybody really understand economics? I sure don't, and it seems as if those who are paid to understand it don't, since they can't agree on anything.
Consumerism is so depressing, but apparently it's what makes the world go round. If the world depends on the creating of more stuff, most of which is not necessary for life or health or happiness (unless one is greedy), is it a world worth keeping? Can we keep it while we're destroying it in order to have an economy?
Nobody wants to cut back on anything. Our governor has called for school budgets to remain level this year because the state is going broke, and all are outraged. (And don't jump all over me about this being a local issue, because in my state it's different from apparently other state). He wants to not have to cut back on children's health care, and we all agree with him on that.
I'm not sure anyone paid very much attention to Obama's inauguration speech. Sacrifice is fine, as long as it's someone else who's doing the sacrificing.
Complain about this comment
ToSamtyler1969
This is a response to something from another thread. I do not always express myself as well as I would wish.
I believe that anyone who chooses to run and is elected to public office makes a covenant with the people he or she represents. When that person accepts the job it is de facto a sacred oath to promote the highest good of those represented.
Oaths and bibles are trivial. The symbol is really nothing. It is the reality that counts.
Complain about this comment
tigermilkboy
Let's start with this;
"Marcus, you are certainly no economist."
Thank you. They all got it wrong, remember? A year ago few if any of them accurately predicted what would happen. There were no alarm bells going off that disaster was just around the corner. I've read many of them including Milton Friedman whose book was my text when I studied economics in college.
"Thank you MarcusAureliusII for the biggest laugh you have given me in ages."
Have you been laughing lately at the results the so called professional money experts have been obtaining? Have you laughed at your own investment portfolio? Your 401K? Your IRA? Not so funny is it?
"The methods you propose would be inflationary to say the least"
That is their intended purpose. Weren't you paying attention?
"...and would need higher interest rates to counter."
Wrong, interest rates would increase as a natural result of inflation. It's not a question of what is needed, higher rates would be the market's natural response to this situation.
"This would thus increase interest payments on debts-maybe not in the short-term but definitely in the medium-term."
Not on fixed interest debts already incurred. Those will be paid off with interest rates in existing contracts with cheaper dollars. That's the whole point.
"Business and consumer borrowing and lending would collapse."
Nonsense, it has collapsed now with zero interest rates because the depression has made every lending institution fearful that nobody will have money to pay back a loan, not even other banks. When money is available easily, it will be loaned to credit worthy people but at a higher rate than we've been accostomed to in a long time. We survived the Carter years with double digit inflation just fine. That's a good model to look at. The debt he inherited was the payment due on the money the government borrowed to finance the war in Vietnam.
"Higher interest rates enourage saving, not consumer spending."
It encourages both. Easy money and available credit causes money to move. When you put money into a bank, they lend it out to worthy borrowers who use it for business investments, to purchase cars and homes, or for other purposes that bank regulators feel is responsible risk, assuming they have the regulations in place and the power to do their jobs. That's how you unstick a frozen economy which is what we have now.
"Businesses save profits rather than reinvest."
Not true, what they don't re-invest they mostly distribute to shareholders as dividends. But if they sit on cash for a time, that money is put to work in banks and other investments, it doesn't sit collecting dust in a wall safe or under a mattress the way it is now.
"So you have rabid inflation, interest rates and falling spending.
If you failed to increase interest rates then no-one saves, money is spent before it loses value and you have a situation that resembles Zimbabwe."
Zimbabwe's economy collapsed because it produce nothing of value. Its prior output, farming products was eliminated by the insanity of Mugabe. America will continue to produce vast quantities of high value goods and services. When the dollar falls due to devaluation from printing so many of them, people around the world will be attacted to buy them because they will be cheap in their own currency.
"Printing money only works in the short-term and as only as long as it monetary growth matches economic growth."
No, it shifts the paradigm, the reference pont. Everything goes up in price except the old debt that can be paid off with the new cheap dollars.
"The other methods you propose (Federal court case re debt swops)would effectively wipe out every lending institution in the US. You are crazily talking about wiping out every bank!"
No it won't. Many banks are both borrowers and issuers of CDSs. By nullifying them, they will jetison both the income they were expecting to take in but also the obligations they had taken on they'd have to pay out. Some banks would die because they have bought far more CDSs than they have sold. Too bad. In capitalism, the price for incompetent money management such as taking on high risk investments without understanding them is and should be bankruptcy. Other more prudent surviving banks will fill the void. Who cares what the name of the bank you do business with is as long as it is solvent.
You sound like a banker...or a large bond holder.
"I wish you luck at the Zimbabwean Treasury, you will fit in like a dream!!!"
The United States will never experience inflation anything like Zimbabwe. But it needs a huge jump start to get back on track and when it gets one, there will be losers and winners. Which category will you fit into?
Complain about this comment
Ill. Gov. Blagojevich has just been convicted by the Ill. Senate
Complain about this comment
The vote is unanimous. 59-0
Complain about this comment
That wasn't a very good link to BLS data for Louisiana. Here's a better one:
http://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.la.htm
Complain about this comment
Where do I begin? 40 years in the wilderness
sounds about right.... Quite probably the stimulus
package could right the ship if it was done
the right way, but of course, the Congress is
really in charge, so what's the chance of that?
And Ed, apropos #14, pardon me if my whining
head is throbbing from this mental recession.
Could you please pass the Grey Poupon?
Complain about this comment
There was a report on the radio that said there are 900 billion actual American dollars in existence. Um, so where are the billions for the bailouts and stimuli, as well as all the other "money" coming from? Is it play money? Supposedly we're borrowing it from China, but then does that mean it's in yuan? Or do they have the whole 900 billion dollars?
Does any of this "money" actually exist? It really does appear to be a really huge Ponzi scheme (only in your dreams, Madoff). Are we just passing the same dollars around and who has it depends on the day of the week?
I would appreciate it someone could explain this, but not MAII because I just can't read the stuff he writes.
Complain about this comment
And another thing. I keep hearing that at least we've staved off inflation, but if the cost of everything keeps going up and wages don't, how is that not inflation? My favorite cookies just went up by over $1 a bag. I call that inflation. I didn't buy them and so had to weather yesterday's snow storm cookieless. Now that's sacrifice.
Complain about this comment
#37
Crapaud,
rather a long post, terribly long winded but let me respond briefly.
Friedman pointed out many times priniting money creates hyperinflation (Fisher Price Equation). every country that has tried this from the Weimar republic to South America to Zimbabwe has suffered catastrophic economic collapse. no exceptions. There is no paradigm shift, you plan to do something tried, tested and failed.
Many economists predicted the current problems and were ignored. Krugman for one. No economist has supported the borrow and spend economics of the last 8 years. Party hacks yes, economists no.
Business hoard cash as retained earnings during periods of uncertainty. Hyperinflation causes those earnings to rapidly become worth nothing. Reinvested they become trivial.
Nullifying the instruments would let a lot of stupid people off the hook, especially the property owners. The balance sheet hit would collapse most US banks. The Europeans could step in as they have less exposure and their governments are supporting the sector. Your plan is for us all to bank with HSBC and Banc Lyonnaise.
Poor folks suffer and die.
Your plan is, economically, bankrupt. Or an evil idea to let the Euro's take over the US. Couple this with your al Qaeda foreign policy and we know you intend to subvert our Constitution.
All of which proves you have no US assets, since you would carelessly devalue them. And that you are French, as you want us to rely on your Euro trash banks.
Next you'll be telling us smoking Galloise is good for you.
Bon Soir
Economist Sam
Complain about this comment
#37
Sorry Marco Pierrealianus,
I missed your idea on 'repaying fixed interest rates'
Anyone with CD's etc loses. Anyone relying on fixed income loses. T Bills become worthless. The opportunity cost of capital on any fixed interest loan becomes hundreds to thousands of percent, bankrupting the few banks that remain and eliminating those very loans as an instrument. And, here is the kicker, while people pay back their loans with cheap dollars, the things they bought become worthless. They lose too.
Pretty much wipes everyone out. As an economic idea, this is a zinger.
Because here's the thing. Printing money is easy. And if it worked, we'd all be Roman.
Like Tiger, I laughed my a . . off at this post. Really. I mean, how dumb could a suggestion be?
Economist Sam
Complain about this comment
To#35Bere54
I do not know your state but at least your governor does not want to balance the budget by depriving your children.
I believe that a society that does not protect and nurture the young and care for those who are most vulnerable is in danger of extinction.
Complain about this comment
Ref 35, Bere
"Our governor has called for school budgets to remain level this year because the state is going broke, and all are outraged."
You guys are lucky. In Florida, Governor Charlie Crist and the legislature are considering major cuts in education, MEDICAID, and other social programs designed to help the poor and disabled.
The largesse of past decades is coming back to hunt us at all levels of our society. I actually don't blame Reagan, Bush II, or anyone else, they did what we wanted them to do, which is to give us everything without paying for it. That mentality is also evident in corporate America and in our own personal finances to the point that we can not function without credit.
Well, the boogeyman is here and not only wants high interest on those Treasury bills he has been buying, but is not sure he is going to continue buying them. Printing worthless paper is a probability that should not be discounted so easily.
Paying for what we get - and saving - are tantamount to sacrilege in our society. We have nobody to blame but ourselves.
Complain about this comment
#43, bere54, thank God there are people out
there like yourself who are willing to work a little harder
and endure cookie-less snowstorms so that the
US economy becomes a little more efficient.
Just don't let Santa go hungry if he shows up a little
disoriented and late. He probably has some
undelivered presents on his sleigh, and he's
headed to the outlet store. If you tick him off
and get on his bad side, you'll never see him
or Rudolf again.
Complain about this comment
#36
Hi Aqua,
Well I have to admit the oathes I have taken I have kept. I guess it depends on the oathtaker, but to me they are very important promises and ones I hold myself to.
Serious Sam
Complain about this comment
43 bere
I sympathise over the cookies. Digestives went up a buck as well:(
Though the mods might think 'what's that got to do with the price of biscuits in America'.
I'm in agreement it is a disaster and a sure fire indicator of the economy.
Complain about this comment
Oh and money isn't real.
Terry Pratchett.
"Making Money"
It's a good read.
Complain about this comment
lol sam I was scrolling up and was wondering who this was that had made your fingers twitter.
should have known.
Complain about this comment
To#45Samtyler
In my lifetime, I have seen the rich get richer and the poor get poorer while those of us in the middle struggle to support both while trying to survive ourselves.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The sad fact is that we're still going at it as if we can only save the planet if The Economy can afford it, and so all our attention is on saving
The Economy.
FACT The Environment contains The Economy - NOT the other way round.
We can only have en Economy if we have a planet capable of supporting our sort of life.
Read it or not and beware
Peace and fair shares
ed
Complain about this comment
In ref. to #40
Sorry for not answering your question, Gary A Hill; I just didnt read your post-I scrolled right to the bottom after returning.
I saw those numbers and I must say that I am not surprised by the variance in statistics, but I still think going from a non-farm employment of 1,950,600 in Aug 05 to a low of 1,774,000 in Oct 05, and back to 1,949,000 in Dec 08 in a troubled national economic environment is quite a feat.
Given the statistical insignificance of much of the variance and the positive predictions for 09, I am not about to change my outlook on Louisiana's economy just yet and neither should investors, but caution is warranted.
Complain about this comment
To#47Saintdominick
So very sad but too true.
Complain about this comment
Tea break
Complain about this comment
bere54 #42
Don't worry about me trying to explain it to you, it can't be explained in words of one syllable or less.
69#44, the US has undergone inflation by printing money more then once since WWII. It's happened after WWII and after Vietnam. The risk now is not inflation but deflation. In case you haven't noticed, trillions of dollars of presumed wealth evaporated into thin air. Without mitigating that, the US and the world are headed for a depression as bad or worse than the one in the 1930s. I hope the President's 819 billion dollar stimulus package works but the numbers just don't add up. And you can't pay for that and the bank bail out and 10 trillion in government debt out of tax revenues. It won't work. If you increased taxes to pay for all of that, you'd only make the depression worse. Take my advice 69, you being an amateur economist I'd keep that as merely a hobby and if I were you...I wouldn't quit my day job.
69#45, anyone who invests in fixed interest instruments always loses if interest rates go up. Yes if you hold assets in long term CDs, you'd be screwed under my plan. That's life. At least you will get your principal back, many "smart" investors in the stock market won't even get that. Ever hear of "laddering?" Try reading a book on investing for once.
"The things they bought become worthless"
Are you kidding? You don't have a clue. When there's inflation, real assets increase in absolute dollar value. Collectable grade art is a great investment during inflation. In the long run, a house is excellent once the market stabalizes and interest rates drop again. No class of assets of any type that an average American can hope to own in his lifetime has appreciated in real dollar amounts over an extended period more than houses. Gold is also good during inflation.
It hardly matters what you or I think or what the government wants to do. This IS going to happen because there is no other choice. But first a lot of people are going to be allowed to go broke because the same economists who created this mess, don't like the idea. It goes against their grain. And it goes against the interests of their banker friends. Their banker friends are lucky they aren't all in jail....yet.
Complain about this comment
To#49Samtyler1969
You have exactly made my point that the reality is what really counts.
Complain about this comment
42 bere54
"I would appreciate it someone could explain this"
Maybe someone has already. I am far from an economist but, and this is very simplistic, the US will sell Bonds to raise money. Right now the country with over a trillion (I believe) US dollars, is China. They also own plenty of US bonds. If they wish they will use some of their US dollars to buy the bonds. Also the Japanese and Saudis.
Should they decide, for whatever reason, to sell massive amounts of US bonds, the price of the bonds will fall and interest rates will go up.
That's why it is so important for the US to continue to have good relations with China, Japan, Saudi Arabia or any country that holds a significant amount of US bonds.
On the other hand, it is not to the advantage of these countries to see the US fail.
Therefore the world wants Obama to succeed and is counting on the American people to make it happen. Sorry to burden you!
Re: inflation. The price of food may be going up but big ticket items are not. House, cars, etc.
As for the 900 billion I do not know. I think the US is just printing money but I could be very wrong about that.
Complain about this comment
#53
Sadly that is true.
Sad Sam
Complain about this comment
Sam: somehow you remind me of the security
guard who fell into a vat of chocolate at the
Hershey factory.
happy: the kind of cookies (and brownies) that
you consume will always be expensive.
Complain about this comment
The first stimulus should have never happened. It was aimed at giving rich people who can't control themselves even more money. This was proven today when the news came out that 18 billion was given in bonuses with tax payer money which is totally ridiculous. I agree with the Obama stimulus. There are probably some things in there that I don't like; I don't know we are talking a lot of money to be spent many ways. The economy is so far gone, tax breaks for the rich have proven time and time again they don't trickle down to the rest of us, everyone is worried about their job; we have to take a gamble here. I hope it works.
Complain about this comment
#59
Poor Marco,
Your plan has been tried, tested, and failed. Zimbabwe is a good example, South America in the 80's/90's and the Weimar Republic.
To put your plan in real terms:
MA: Hail Sam
S: Hail marcus
MA: I have solved the economic and energy crisis
S: Wow. Thanks Marcus. how?
MA: I shall run my car on cow urine
S: That won't work
MA: It will. It's a paradigm shift
S: Cletus in trailer 3 tried it. Wrecked his truck
MA: You are ignorant. His truck was Japanese and he used horse pee. Completely different
S: Dude, it won't work
MA: I am an engineer. I know all the US standards. I am a genius. It will work. My car is American, the BEST. We elected Obama. OK I hated him in the campaign but now he is My president we are super. We elected a black guy. That makes me GREAT. I AM THE BEST
S: Dude, the pee thing won't work
MA: You are a European ass. i know.I can tell.
S: Yeah. Sure. Have fun
MA: Galloise?
S: no thanks
Sad Sam
Complain about this comment
#60
And may the Lord help me keep my oaths and may you always keep yours.
Smiling Sam
Complain about this comment
#63
Guns,
Who licks it off?
Oh yeah. Now we're talking.
Sam
Complain about this comment
bere54
Oh ! Sorry, just saw a "typo" in your question that I reprinted - try not to let the proofreader in you be bothered. I would have corrected it if I saw it earlier. But as you said, I just read what I expected to see.
Just learned you are in Vermont. I live in Montreal, easy driving distance. I think your lawn of wild flowers is a lovely idea.
Complain about this comment
43. At 11:44pm on 29 Jan 2009, bere54 wrote:
" My favorite cookies just went up by over $1 a bag. I call that inflation. I didn't buy them and so had to weather yesterday's snow storm cookieless. Now that's sacrifice".
Not cool. I have noticed that the prices of my favorite foods have also gone up. But I can still eat at Costco! Thank God for bulk food items. You are a cookie martyr!
Complain about this comment
To#66Samtyler1969
No worries.
I think you are an honorable person. May there be many more such as you in this world.
We need all the help we can get!
Complain about this comment
#46
Maybe extinction is the best thing that could happen, but like in the Twilite Zone, everyone just disapears.
Complain about this comment
All of this history-making politics(good and bad) is making my head spin! Illinois is like Bradgelina, it keeps spittin' em out!
V&T Croony
Complain about this comment
To everyone obsessed with cookies.
Try baking your own. Much tastier and less expensive!
Complain about this comment
To#71Middlecroony
Unfortunately, I think it will be so much more painful than an episode of Twilight Zone.
My head is also spinning!
Complain about this comment
I have to run a mile per hundred calories, no cookies!
Complain about this comment
Not everyone in the financial sector is a crook, but the ones that aren't crooks are fools.
And I believed in them all.
I've read some Republican articles in local papers that made good sense, from congressmen who voted against the stimulus package. But they offered no real alternative to it. I also read that every dollar in infrastructure produces $1.50 in the economy, while every dollar in tax cuts produces $0.75 (due to savings, debt pay-down, etc.)
There is a lot of pork and goodies in this package - but it isn't Obama's work except in the broadest outlines. It is from Pelosi's office, with little discussion allowed, which is what outrages the Repub's so much. Obama is letting Congress, meaning the House Dem's, do their thing as the legislature for now, while he gathers his forces for real battles down the road.
Pelosi is looking as scary as Hillary ever appeared to be, as narrowly partisan, as committed to her left-of-left buddies and their interests, as vengeful, as unwilling to share. She gives only lip service to Obama's message, at present, while she exercises her new power as head of government . Obama could work with the Republicans, I'm guessing, better than he can with her.
The next round, in the Senate, will be another interesting page in the Obama drama.
KScurmudgeon
Complain about this comment
24. At 6:57pm on 29 Jan 2009, SamTyler1969 wrote:
#1
"Lord,
I was confused too. I'd just finished getting myself ready for a huge stimulus as well. Imagine my suprise when it turned out that it wasn't at all what I was expecting but had something to do with fiscal policy.
Time to put the handcuffs and the chocolate sauce away".
Crap. I bought a lot of leather. Fiscal package? You don't say?
Complain about this comment
Please pay close attention to Blagojevich's posturing and especially his arguments. Illinois was in danger of becoming a third-world, eastern-european-style state.
The argument that he didn't get a fair trial ignores the fact that it wasn't a criminal trial, but a political assessment - he is unfit to govern. If this had been one of many such attacks on elected officials - or if we continue to impeach presidents again and again with some regularity, then Mr. Blagojevich's charges would have some merit. But he is the first and only to be removed in Illinois history.
As a free people anywhere must guard against the irregular transfer of power, they must also look out for the foul stink of corrupt demagogues.
KScurmudgeon
Complain about this comment
The government is the only consumer left standing in the country right now. Good that it spent some money consuming things.
Complain about this comment
test
Complain about this comment
65.
SamTyler1969 wrote:
#59
Poor Marco. . .
Ah, thanks for that; I admit I was getting a bit puzzled.
I suspect, though, that the constant exposure of "Aw-real-economics-r-us" to European ideas on this blog may be turning him green.
(I think it's green; he's gone a funny colour lately, that's for sure.)
Thus:
He spends tax rebate, 'stimulus' cheque or newly printed 1 billion dollar note, on a horse.
He fills his petrol tank with horse urine.
It won't go.
He harnesses horse to Lincoln Town Car.
On way to baker's, he collects horse manure.
Sells said by-product to shop (to be dried and used as fuel for ovens) in return for chocolate hobnobs.
Which he feeds to horse to produce (4) above.
Returns home happy and fulfilled ready for another day.
And so the economic cycle is kept going on horse . . . .
(Actually, he'd probably use a bull, but probably doesn't realise they are not so reliable as draught animals.)
I think I've got it now.
(Taking a leaf from Justin's book and the splendid "inciteful" I'm going to invent the word "keynesing". It's the sound sane economists make in corners on hearing some of the ideas about how to fix this mess.)
Complain about this comment
#65 Sam,
Funniest post I have seen on these blogs.
#59, MAII
"In case you haven't noticed, trillions of dollars of presumed wealth evaporated into thin air."
If by evaporated into thin air you mean Cheney's pocket then I completely agree!
Complain about this comment
I've mentioned this before, but this 'stimulus' package looks to me as though it's going to end up like the bank bailout.
As far as I can see (and that Foridian newspaper piece spells it out pretty clearly for Florida) at best, half, or more likely two-thirds, of the money that goes to the states will be spent shoring up budgets that are already allocated or already spent, to pay for which, with declining local tax revenue, there is no other source. Thanks to the banking cockup.
It isn't really 800 billion that's going to be sloshing around; it's 150-200 billion. And, to be honest, I think it's a shambles.
Created by politicians who want to be seen apparently bailing out/benefiting their own constituencies with virtually no regard for the national (let alone world) economic situation.
Complain about this comment
#77
Lady,
I believe that you and Iare on the right track. We should get together for our own stimulus 'package'.
Pervert Sam
Complain about this comment
@76 (KSCurmudgeon): I agree completely. Obama's (and the country's) biggest challenges are going to be Pelosi and Reid, with Pelosi leading. She is not a typical American politico; she appears to be rather more of a "true believer", inclined to use her power to coerce adoption of the ideologies she holds dear. She's still fighting the undeclared Cold Civil War that started in the late 1960s. Truly tragic, but we get the government we deserve.
@21 (Gary A. Hill): I'd like to agree with your objection, but the only way to put this beyond the reach of Congress is through amendment. There is no way that any part of this can be left in the hands of Congress to judge for themselves, or they will lie and cheat their way back to the current system. They don't just need their hands tied; they need them shackled with case-hardened steel with no locks to pick.
Complain about this comment
@83 (british-ish): I believe you are correct, although the numbers may be somewhat different. Everyone who gets "stimulated" is going to either put that money away for a rainy day or use it to offset debt. The job creation is likely not to follow.
Complain about this comment
69, aren't you lucky you don't have any "real" money. If you had, you'd have been easy pickins' for the Bernie Madoffs of the world. Peope who saw the world of economics and finance through your eyes just last summer are now finding themselves in the winter of financial circumstances in the winter of their lives. The old saying a fool and his money are soon parted probably goes back to Roman times and is every bit as true today.
BTW, I won't be driving around in any Eurocrate bought with my stimulus money. I'd certainly prefer a Lincoln Town Car to anything I could buy from the other side of the Atlantic....even if it isn't as fast and fun to drive as my VIII LSC. But it is very comfortable and pleasant to ride in....if your world doesn't consist of narrow alleyways in cities built hundreds of years ago for horse drawn wagons.
Complain about this comment
Justin, From what I've read, there is a tremendous amount of waste in this stimulus package. ACORN, at the very least an organization of dubious moral character, is to receive billions (I believe $550b) and there is money for abortion and sex-education - at a time like this! Some sense of priorities! Absolutely mindless! Austerity should be on the minds of those handing out the loot, but that's not the impression I get.
Apparently there is too little recognition of the crisis in which the U.S. has found itself, too few rules and controls over how stimulus money can be spent, and too few indicators that this plan is going to work.
With news almost daily of yet another corporation in distress and worker lay-offs, what foundation exists for a quick recovery just because billions are being pumped into financial institutions and other organizations run mostly by the same clots who got them into a mess? Upon what basis can this stimulus work?
Then the lack of a real sense of urgency gives an impression of the new leaders walking around in dream-world! This is the mindset of individuals and a nation that for too long has lived with a massive and mounting debt, and on credit. The notion seems to exist that somehow, from somewhere, proper money with value is going to miraculously appear. This is the stuff of monopoly! Someone should tell the bright sparks in Washington it isn't. Of course money is going to appear - in the form of dollars that in a short while will be worth feathers, and an even bigger debt to foreign lenders.
So let me remind you of the proverb that says: "The borrower is servant to the lender." The piper calls the tune!
Already Wall Street's depraved with greed business people are helping themseleves to bonuses from taxpayer money. These lunactic don't care if the country crashes, as long as they get their hands on a piece of the pie paid from public money. A good action at this stage would be to take back their bonuses, tell others baying for pork and ACORN to take a hike (but Obama won't, they helped him - any way they chose).
And when the Republicans don't play ball over a plan that now seems full of holes, Obama will claim that he tried to reach across the isle with a non-partisan approach and the Republicans rejected it.
Just wait for the next idiotic episode in America's demise. The House Republicans were right to reject this bill, but they need to have a good alternative and so far don't seem to have a substantial plan.
Complain about this comment
I find it funny ,that when you go to this website,
http://www.recovery.gov/
you can only see transparency after the bill is passed! Wouldn't it be nice if citizens could see what they're spending our money on before it's a done deal? If anyone knows if there is a transscript of this i can read ,let me know.
Looking at how the last money was regulated puts me over on the side of caution. Personally, i don't think the Pres. was firm enough when talking about the wasteful spending of the CEO's just yesterday. Since it's our money can't someone in government fire any of these worthless people?
Complain about this comment
MAII: It has nothing to do with multi-syllabic words; the reason I can't read, or rather don't want to read, your scribblings is because you always sound so smarmy and smug. I've learned that smugness usually is a cover for lack of substance.
Complain about this comment
happylaze:
I've read "Making Money." You're right, it is good. Coincidentally, I read it right before the big collapse, and it occurred to me that Pratchett is a prescient genius. As well as a wit.
Complain about this comment
68 timewaits:
Drat that typo. Didn't notice it myself until I saw it in your earlier post. So embarrassing. I've been to Montreal several times, lovely city, good restaurants, but you guys got some vicious squirrels up there. I learned that if you're going to feed them, you'd better not run out of the food. They chase.
Complain about this comment
#87
Oh Marco,
Where to start? I didn't have any money with Madoff because I simply don't invest in any instruments that are not audited by a Big 4 firm. It isn't Marcusproof as a strategy but it reduces risk. The instruments I have include a wide variety of stocks, bonds and other investments, again as a hedge, and are held in multiple currencies.
Secondly I am globally diversified so that if some crackpot started doing anything stupid in one country or region, like printing a bunch of money, it would only affect a fraction of my portfolio.
Thirdly I own property in mulitple countries for the same reason.
Lastly I have a significant collection of fine art (I won't say what because it would give away who I am) and some very nice guns. Plus Mrs Sam has a lot of sparkly stuff.
I don't count options, even those 'in the money' but I have plenty and plenty of time to exercise them.
So I'm about as insulated as a guy could be. 'Worse off' on paper than a year ago, of course. My net worth is definitely down, but not in any way that affects my annual activities or retirement plans. I have enough years of work left in me to be able to recoup any losses and I am still buying in now.
As for the Lincoln Town car, I am sure that is a great selection for you. It has big doors and is high off the ground for those of a fuller figure to get in and out. There is plenty of play in the steering so if you have the DT's you won't roll around the road like a drunken sailor. And it has a wonderful alarm to tell you if you got a little absent minded and left the indicators on. Plus the ride is good and spongy so you won't spill your beer driving down the track from your trailer to the real road.
It's perfect for you. It's still a terrible car and demonstration of everything that's wrong with Detroit (just look at the export sales), but for you, perfect.
Just don't try the cow pee thing. It doesn't work. Really.
Happy Sam
Complain about this comment
87. At 1:48pm on 30 Jan 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
69, aren't you lucky you don't have any "real" money. If you had, you'd have been easy pickins' for the Bernie Madoffs of the world. Peope who saw the world of economics and finance through your eyes just last summer are now finding themselves in the winter of financial circumstances in the winter of their lives. The old saying a fool and his money are soon parted probably goes back to Roman times and is every bit as true today.
BTW, I won't be driving around in any Eurocrate bought with my stimulus money. I'd certainly prefer a Lincoln Town Car to anything I could buy from the other side of the Atlantic....even if it isn't as fast and fun to drive as my VIII LSC. But it is very comfortable and pleasant to ride in....if your world doesn't consist of narrow alleyways in cities built hundreds of years ago for horse drawn wagons."
More buffonery. Alleys in beautifull European classical cities were not built for horse drwn wagons but for foot traffic
As anyone knows who has lived in a former colonial town "horse drawn wagons" are bigger than most cars.
Complain about this comment
88. At 2:08pm on 30 Jan 2009, robloop wrote:
Justin, From what I've read, there is a tremendous amount of waste in this stimulus package. ACORN, at the very least an organization of dubious moral character, is to receive billions (I believe $550b) and there is money for abortion and sex-education - at a time like this! "
How does can an organisation have a "dubious moral character"?
Presumably they walk the streets looking for custom, or cruise in cars seeking relief?
Sex education is an ongoing need as with all health care.
" Austerity should be on the minds of those handing out the loot, but that's not the impression I get. "
No handing out the loot should be on the minds of those handing out the loot.
Otherwise they have no purpose.
"And when the Republicans don't play ball over a plan that now seems full of holes, Obama will claim that he tried to reach across the isle with a non-partisan approach and the Republicans rejected it."
Yes it is brilliant politics and the Republicans have fallen right into it.
They will end up looking like they oppose their country's recovery.
They had better learn to stop underestimating the president.
Complain about this comment
86, arclightt:
If I got "stimulated" I would spend it (possibly on cookies). I have no debt other than a small car payment. But because I don't earn enough to file taxes, I'm left out. The myth of those who don't pay taxes getting an unfair tax refund is just that - a myth. Those who do file but don't pay income taxes still have payroll taxes deducted from their paychecks. It's a big chunk.
Complain about this comment
76 KScurmudgeon
Your posting gave me a good deal of pleasure with its disparagements, not least of Nancy Pelosi. In her case my natural tendency towards chivalry vanishes in a haze. She is vindictiveness and mean-spiritedness personified. An ideologue and prize dragon. Not a chance of 'reaching across the isle' there. What a pity she is not a male and did not spend time in school playgrounds where if you behaved as she does you got a fist in the teeth. She'd have more respect for others and their views. In my estimation her audacity and arrogance is based on no fear of unpleasant consequences. In my estimation a cancer who will do Obama no good. Even now, for her, I would do the school playground honour.
Complain about this comment
Bere54, I didn't notice anyone else "enlightening" you. Stay ignorant, don't wait for anyone else here to educate you, they have their own problems.
If you don't even know the basic definitions of the money supply, why waste your time reading books on finance with far more complex notions that assume basic knowledge as a prerequisite?
"I've read "Making Money." You're right, it is good. Coincidentally, I read it right before the big collapse, and it occurred to me that Pratchett is a prescient genius."
Really, then he must be a billionaire having followed his own advice. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
It wasn't hard to see the market crash and the depression coming. All anyone who knew anything about economics and finance had to do was take their rose colored glasses off and face the reality of what was happening. That was the hardest part. The signs have been unmistakable for years. The only questions were when it would happen and the precise details of the circumstances at the end of the ride. If it hadn't been Lehman Brothers, it would have been AIG or Goldman Sachs or any of dozens of others. They are all in the same boat which is why they don't trust each other and won't lend to each other. Why not ask your stock broker or investment advisor what it all means. Odds are he's too busy trying to figure out how to avoid losing his own house to be bothered with you.
Complain about this comment
69, stick with your Jetta, I'll stick with my LSC. IMO rollercoaster rides are for children.
Glad you have planned your finances so well. But unless the economy is re-inflated with lots of cash, everything you own won't be worth much because there won't be anyone around with any money to buy it. That's as simple as I can make it for you. BTW, the "reflation" is already in the works. Where do you think the 1.6 trillion in bank bailouts and stimulus in the US will come from. Hint....not taxes, nobody has money to pay for it. Same for the other countries. The real question is will it be enough. I don't think so. There are a lot of other places that need a mountain of quick cash or else. Like every city and state in America, they're all broke. Illinois, 4 billion in debt. California, 40 billion in debt. Better get out of those long term bonds and CDs while you still can. I already hear the presses warming up and they're getting a big shipment of ink and paper in DC any day now.
Complain about this comment
re: 46 aquagal
You may have seen this already, but here is Paul Krugman talking about the "50 Herbert Hoovers" in the State gov'ts.
Yours,
Pinko
Complain about this comment
91 bere
that he is.
Complain about this comment
re: 76 KScurmudgeon
Nate Silver at 538.com does a good job here de-bunking the "tax cuts are better than spending" argument. Krugman also has a good column on it in the NYT.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
Complain about this comment
95 Simon21
Hey peanut gallery, if like you, they can have "dubious moral character".
Complain about this comment
Rob,
Out of $825bn? That's two thirds of the entire package! I think you must be letting the stuff you're reading fry your brains....The Association of Community Group for Reform Now is less of "dubious moral character" than yourself.Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
Complain about this comment
Marcus Aurelius II - As a discussion, I like your idea about printing money for getting out of debt. As you noted earlier, the economy is beginning to experience deflation rather than inflation. This will help absorb over inflation, which is usually the case when printing too much currency. As a counter argument to comparison of your idea to Wiemar Germany hyper-inflation, it should be noted that Wiemar debt was not in German currency. Therefore we will not have to print more dollars to make up for higher exchange rates. US debt is in dollars and will always be in dollars regardless of the worth of the dollar.
Complain about this comment
robloop,
My feeling is you can't try to right all the world's wrongs with gov't spending. Get the money in the economy and get it to work, ASAP. They've already had to compromise on the birth control initiatives, I believe.
And, there is now talk about more (like doubling it) money for the TARP pit, but also restrictions on executive bonuses and even -- gasp -- clawbacks of money already spent. I wonder how that'll pan out.
Yours,
Pinko
Complain about this comment
47, Saint.
"You guys are lucky. In Florida, Governor Charlie Crist and the legislature are considering major cuts in education, MEDICAID, and other social programs designed to help the poor and disabled."
You don't get it. Everything has to be cut except executive bonuses.
Complain about this comment
The only people who do not, under any circumstances, face the specter of utter destitution are those receiving social security. It is not enough to live on, but offers a measure of stability. Roosevelt can be thanked for that. Now it they would stop taxing it....
Complain about this comment
97. At 4:53pm on 30 Jan 2009, robloop wrote:
76 KScurmudgeon
Your posting gave me a good deal of pleasure with its disparagements, not least of Nancy Pelosi. In her case my natural tendency towards chivalry vanishes in a haze. She is vindictiveness and mean-spiritedness personified. An ideologue and prize dragon."
Wouldn't be a "dragon" because she is a woman would she?
Isn't it awful when women don't keept o their place either.
"Not a chance of 'reaching across the isle' there. What a pity she is not a male"
Yes its a terible pity, what could she be thinking of insisting on being female and having a point of view and entering politics!
How horrible of her, does she not realise politics is only for white men?
"and did not spend time in school playgrounds where if you behaved as she does you got a fist in the teeth."
If the playground was full of violent aggresive thugs
" She'd have more respect for others and their views."
Beating people teaches them their place. Someone steps out of line -hit them.
Someone dissrespects you, hit them.
"n my estimation her audacity and arrogance is based on no fear of unpleasant consequences. In my estimation a cancer who will do Obama no good. Even now, for her, I would do the school playground honour. "
What a pity hitting women is against the law. Political correctness gone mad
As a mysogynistic rant this would be hard to beat.
One worries for your wife and daughters ,what happens to them if they "step out of line"?
Complain about this comment
I don't think MAII knows who Terry Pratchett is, or the sort of books he writes. That's a shame because a twit with a sense of humor is more palatable than a twit without one.
Complain about this comment
#99
Marcus, you said something nice. Have you been drinking?
It's easy to plan if you have money, it's the age old problem if you don't.
Jetta. What a great first car for anyone? Good design, solid German engineering, slightly sporty, easy to maintain. And what a great stable, Audi, Lambourghini, Bugatti. Profitable and perhaps soon owned by Porsche. Awesome brand to associate with.
Lincoln, also has a stable of Ford, Mercury. Sold Jaguar and Aston which were the only half decent brands in the range. Old unprofitable nags ready for the glue factory. I can see why you would want to associate with that brand.
Sam the Stig
Complain about this comment
"as the nation recovers and names newly-opened schoolrooms and roads and smartgrid emporiums after Barack H Obama..."
Al of them will be named after Obama?
Isn't that something that happens in dictatorships?
The breathless worship and adoration of Obama on this site has now turned into parody.
Ye gods: tone it down. It is liking a cult. A little critical thinking and blanace go a long way.
Complain about this comment
#100,
Pinky,
Gresat article. I had missed that this morning. Thank you.
Sam
Complain about this comment
#98
Bere,
Marcus is very rude. If I were you I wouldn't jump to Wiki and look up the names of economists that have been posted on this blog and then claim to be an economic genius.
If you really want to get a grasp on all this stuff I would, assuming I could afford it, subscribe to the economist. As noted above, Krugmans columns in the NYT are available on line and are invariably good. You can also get them in the library, assuming your local gov't hasn't closed it down. The FT is also excellent.
I don't recommend text books. while reading about the Chicago school is interesting as an academic exercise, it doesn't help you understand what is happening now. Those noted above do.
Hope this helps,
Sam
Complain about this comment
104 Ed Iglehart
Yes, I made and mistake and wrote what I did too quickly. It is $5 billion - a figure bad enough after the way it conducted itself during the election. However, as to your personal comment, could you not have disputed the inaccuracy of my figure without showing what a charming squirt you are?
Complain about this comment
103. At 5:52pm on 30 Jan 2009, robloop wrote:
95 Simon21
Hey peanut gallery, if like you, they can have "dubious moral character".
Hey roboloopy I'm not wishing to punch a 60 year old woman in the mouth.
Now that is way more than dubious isn't it springbok?
Complain about this comment
rodidog, inflation to a degree has always been essential to the continued growth of the US economy. This is the mechanism by which you can buy a house with a 30 year mortgage equal to 2 1/2 times your annual income, pay it off with easier to earn money as the years roll by and gain equity so that by the time it is paid off, it is worth far more than you originally paid for it. Constant demand drives the price up so long as credit is obtainable at reasonable rates. The decision to advance you credit whether it is to buy a house, a car, a home improvement loan, invest in a business, or buy stock on margin is made according to many criteria including your net worth and expected income. Without some inflation, your expected future income will increase very slowly if at all. With deflation, future income is in doubt and your net worth goes down. The economic slowdown has turned into a tailspin, a death spiral that is causing even credit worthy people to lose their homes, their life savings. Drastic measures are called for and there is no time to lose. People like 69 may not like it because they have a dogmatic bias against it or because their own personal finances will suffer but there is no other alternative to printing money than a full blown depression. The Republicans can squawk all they want to but their policies over the last 8 years have strongly contributed to the mess we're in now and their prior approach hasn't worked. They've been voted out of office in part because their policies have failed. Their trickle down theory of economics can be renamed supply side economics or whatever else they want to call it but it boils down to the same thing all the time, tax cuts for the rich. It never worked for the middle class and poor. A lot of that money was squandered in mergers and acquisitions, wild speculation, and moving jobs overseas. Worker income hasn't increased in the US for decades.
President Obama is ready to hit the accelerator but I don't see him just yet putting the pedal to the metal. This idea of "reflating" the economy through printing money has already been talked about on BBC business programs. But the panel that discussed it assumed the government could put the brakes on swiftly by one day selling assets it would buy now with printed money after those assets appreciate and then destroy the money it created getting the money supply back to where it is now without inflation. I'm not so sure this is possible or desirable. Inflating the value of privately held assets in absolute dollar terms will make it much easier to pay off old debt...like 69's CDs with cheap dollars worth less than he deposited when he bought them. But his real estate and jewelery will go up at the same time. The one cavaet will be to make provisions for people on fixed incomes. These are mostly retired people with pensions often paid out of annuities or by holding annuities directly. Those people will take a bad hit if something isn't done to mitigate the reduced value of their income.
Complain about this comment
106 chronophobe
It really is worrying, more so because if the huge U.S. economy really comes to grief it will be felt like a tidal wave right round the world.
I remember a math teacher in high school when talking about living on credit, referring to it as "living in never-never land". Right now what we are watching has that feel to it.
Complain about this comment
#109
Simon,
Is she Welsh? She could be a dragon if she was, couldn't she?
BTW, Rob. Hitting women, bad idea.
1. Cops take a dim view of it, especially female cops. You could find yourself spending some personal time with some very violent, very sexually frustrated perps.
2. Some women carry
3. Many are more than capable of hitting back. In my younger years I made the mistake of helping my Judo Sensai (a 3rd Dan female champion) teach a womens self defence course (for, I should add, all the wrong reasons). Things were poked, kicked, pulled, twisted and jabbed that should not be. It hurts. And was not at all kinky.
Do the right thing. Calm down.
Serious Sam
Complain about this comment
#107
Marby,
To be fair, a lot of executives are not taking bonuses this year. I for one am taking a substantial cut in my base income (over 25%) and no bonus. It will save a couple of jobs. I'll be OK and I don't expect anyone to shed a tear for me. But I do want to point oput some of us actually care about our people.
Executive Sam
Complain about this comment
In several of today's morning newspapers there is a full page advertisement placed by the Cato Institute and signed by around two-hundred academics, all affiliated with seats of higher learning. The salient point of the message is Lower tax rates and a reduction of in the burden of government are the best ways of using fiscal policy to boost growth. The ladies and gentleman who have signed no doubt have tenure and do not dirty their hands with "lesser" work.
I'm no economist but one doesn't have to know much about finance to realise that if there is no income to tax, lower tax rates will not make one bit of difference. One can't get blood out of a stone. Only by creating jobs can there be any improvement in the present situation, and if Industry cannot do so, then the State must.
#93. SamTyler1969 - Enough of the bragging about what you claim to have - it doesn't suit you: The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
Complain about this comment
109 Simon21
I guess you are just too simple to resist making inane comments! From your last bit of nonsense, once again I see that your political correctness is beyond nauseating. Do you possibly have a thought in your head that is not regulated by what is now considered 'socially acceptable', no matter how dishonest, cowardly, and just plain stupid?
And oh, by the way, if I don't bother to indulge in what you consider 'debate', forgive me, but I'm beyond dealing with each and every one of your stereotypically-driven assumptions, gross ignorance, and poor understanding of the English language.
As to "step out of line," I'd be quite happy to have you "step out of line" in front of me.
I might just be able to do for you what is evident someone in life path failed to do.
Complain about this comment
Sam:
Thanks for the info. I do read Paul Krugman. His column today about health care was excellent. But I haven't seen him explain about all the invisible or "play" money. Perhaps I'm dense, but it seems to me that all the "money" people have lost in their 401K's etc. wasn't really there in the first place. It was potential wealth, right? This is what has my head spinning. I mean, there just isn't all that money in existence, which is why if we all try to clean out our bank accounts and sell our investments at the same time, everything goes kaplooey, because there isn't enough money. I know this is terribly simplified, but am I on the right track?
I've never used Wiki. Sorry, I'm old-fashioned, but when I look for information I want it to be in an actual book with a bibliography and an index and info on the credentials of the author, so I can have a certain amount of confidence that whoever wrote it knew whereof they spoke. Just a little prejudice of mine.
Complain about this comment
#117
LOL, poor marco. Go look up hyperstagflation, since that is what you propose.
The irony here, and feel free to check this out, is not a single economist advocates the 'print money to get us out of trouble approach. Not one. Universal agreement this is a stupid idea.
But Marcus knows best.
There is another term economists like to use. Microwit. Look that one up too.
Economist Sam
Complain about this comment
69#98
Read the NYTimes for economic and financial advice? Very funny. Just in case you haven't heard the news....they're on the verge of bankruptcy. The family that owns it (Salzberger?) had to borrow money against the building just to keep the doors open. There's a rumor that Rupert Murdoch will buy it...and run it as a hobby. Economist, heal thyself.
The paper lost all credibility with the Jason Blair fiasco. Ever since, I've considered it a rag, little better than the National Enquirer. "All the news we fit to print"
Complain about this comment
102 chronophobe
I read the article and will say that at the end of the day if all the writer has said does not pan out as he thinks it will (or should I say 'might'?), there are going to be a lot more red faces. Right now I have absolutely zero confidence that anyone, liberal or conservative, knows exactly what to do.
I've spoken to financial planners who have been in the business 40 years or more, and it's evident they don't know exactly which way to turn. Consider this, when interest rates come down, the value of bonds usually rise, and vice versa, but over the last year this has just not happened. Bonds performances have till recently been poor. Okay foreign bonds have looked very good in your case, but only because the Canadian dollar tumbled relative to the U.S. dollar. But take a look at the performance of domestic Income Funds and Bond Funds over the last year. Nothing makes sense any more.
I guess both 'tax cuts' and 'spending' is the way to go in the short-term, but for millions out of work and with savings devastated, it is not going to do much good unless these stimulus measures create jobs. Even then, from what I see, in the short-term that is not going to happen. This recession is now too deep and the confidence too small.
Complain about this comment
#119, WELL INDEED!!
Look you here now see boyo,
Less of dragon Welsh woman,
Its just not true!!,Well even if it is, its not kind to say so...
Complain about this comment
I wish someone would print me some money. Sigh. More snow. A week or so in the Caribbean would be so nice right now. And wouldn't that stimulate someone's economy?
Complain about this comment
88. At 2:08pm on 30 Jan 2009, robloop wrote:
"Justin, From what I've read, there is a tremendous amount of waste in this stimulus package. ACORN, at the very least an organization of dubious moral character, is to receive billions (I believe $550b) and there is money for abortion and sex-education - at a time like this"!
How are we not getting this? Sex education is VERY important. If we don't spend the money to educate, we will be spending the money to raise the kid for the next 18 years. Hmm... which one is more expensive? Education is power and we should not cut it in difficult economic times. I thought it was ridiculous it was cut out of the stimulus bill. Don't worry though, we will fit our sex ed in somewhere; it's pivotal to bringing people out of the cycle of poverty.
Complain about this comment
119 SamTyler1969
Sam, read again what I wrote and see what I was saying, but please don't get sucked in by the vaccuous piffle written by Simon.
"What a pity she is not a male and did not spend time in school playgrounds where if you behaved as she does you got a fist in the teeth", is what I wrote.
Re your gentle warning, I played rugby for 16 years, had to do military service and beyond that have learned a few things that do a lot of damage in the name of 'self-defense', so the thought of anyone "hitting back" does not exactly terrify me. The best part is that I look mostly non-threatening.
Complain about this comment
84. At 12:56pm on 30 Jan 2009, SamTyler1969 wrote:
#77
"Lady,
I believe that you and Iare on the right track. We should get together for our own stimulus 'package'.
Pervert Sam"
As long as we are on the same package, I mean page.
Complain about this comment
117. At 7:59pm on 30 Jan 2009, MarcusAureliusII
I disagree. The Bush Tax cuts lowered taxes across the board, in each tax bracket. Yes, the rich also received a tax cut. Yes, their 3% tax cut in dollars equals more than my salary. The 2001 & 2003 tax cuts did stimulate the economy and resulted in 52 months of positive growth. I would also point out that the Federal revenue from the tax cuts nearly doubled from 2001 to 2007. Prior to the collapse of the financial market, the economy was on track towards a surplus. The failure of the Bush administration was not it's economic philosophy. it's failure was not investigating the books from various banks and brokerage houses that were over leveraged with toxic debt.
Complain about this comment
#123
Bere,
On that specific subject NPR did a show that I think you can still get on Podcast, This American Life - The Global Pool of MOney. It's an excellent primer.
The thing about Monetarism, and monetary theory, is that it was a reaction to the evil of inflation in the 70's. Inflation is good so long as economic growth keeps pace or stays ahead of it, so ideally most central banks shoot for 2 or 3 % with growth around 4, it gives you that extra 1% to improve folks lives.
Basically the theory is that the money supply, when it increases, chases the same number of goods so the price goes up. Print loadsofmoney and prices go up. That in itself does nothing for the economy. Zilch. Zero. Niet. Nada. Marcus scheme is a grand way to push up prices and hurt the most vulnerable in our society.
pretty mean spirited really.
Economist Sam
Complain about this comment
129. At 9:53pm on 30 Jan 2009, ladycm wrote:
How are you NOT getting it? This is suppose to be an "EMERGENCY RECOVERY PLAN TO PUT PEOPLE BACK TO WORK". You are worried about sex education and STD's? When the economy goes in the tank, say depression, the least of our children's worries will be sex ed. Folks will be at the bottom of Maslow's pyramid looking for food and shelter. The only thing in this plan should be infrastructure projects, tax cuts, and additional money for unemployment insurance. It's time to face reality, we are down to basics.
Complain about this comment
116 Simple_Simon
Read what I said to Sam, you hysterical half-wit. Sure, I love the Springboks, particulary when they absolute thrash England at Twickenham. What was the score recently? Oh yes, 42 -6.
As to your incessant carpings about South African history, apartheid, and your ignorant accusations, I have nothing against England and the English, even married one, but as a nation you should be one of the last to throw stones in regard to racism and brutality. Let me remind you that it was Gurka troops commanded by British officers who in 1919 wiped out more than 600 Indians at Amritsar in the Punjab who had gathered for a meeting of the Indian Congress party. They even shot down people as they were climbing over walls to escape, but after all, to the British they were just Indians.
When controlling parts of what is now Iraq, if villagers did not pay taxes the Brits would send up a Sopwith Camel or two and straff villages, killing men, women and children, they didn't care, to convince them to 'cough up'. But after all they were not British.
Among many other things, the British started the Anglo-Boer War so that they could grab what people in the Boer republics had discovered in quantities never before found. Then after failing to defeat the Boer forces, they sent their troops through the two republics burning to the ground everything, then killing all livestock they didn't 'take' - in fact steal. They took the women and children away, put them in concentration camps in appalling conditions where in two years or less, 28,000 died.
The British then introduced a 'pass' system to restrict movement of black people.
They treated Afrikaners in an appalling, discriminatory way. Why? Because they were not British and thus not 'best'. The war, its destruction, death of women and children, and later the contemptuous attitudes of British bureaucrats, led to the bitter attitudes that bread the apartheid ideology.
So take your self-righteous, judgmental, accusatory crap and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. I never supported apartheid and your ignorant comments based upon a shallow knowledge of events and the country show you up for what you are, an ignorant low-life.
Complain about this comment
120, Sam.
I am sure that it is true of you and others in the business, and you don't make the headlines. Yet it doesn't change the fact that there have been obscene abuses.
Bonuses are rewards success, not failure. And as these failing businesses go down the tubes the managers are milking them of what is left. I figure they are padding their nests to ride out the depression. Middle America does not have that option, and it is left with 201K's, at best.
Were I Obama I would not give bailout money to the worst offenders unless they returned the bonuses.
Complain about this comment
129 ladycm
Re your: "How are we not getting this? Sex education is VERY important. If we don't spend the money to educate, we will be spending the money to raise the kid for the next 18 years. Hmm... which one is more expensive?"
Sex education should be the duty and responsibility of parents, not schools or other organizations, so if many parents haven't yet learned that, now is the time for government to tell them it is their duty and that in view of the economic mess their contribution will help the economy.
Last time I read, which was earlier today, sex education was in the 'package', which is why I commented as I did. I've raised three kids, one on my own and still at home, so my talk is not cheap on this score.
Complain about this comment
#123
BTW Bere,
What you are describing is a classic run on banks, it was what happened to Northern Rock in the UK. And yes, Kaplooey is a good word for it.
Sad Sam
Complain about this comment
#132
Rodidog,
I am with my French colleague on this. My tax cut? Mostly saved except the 911 Mrs Sam bought when I wasn't looking. Did nothing for our economy at all. I did give some to the United Way, which I guess helped, but nothing like the government taking that money and spending it on child healthcare or unemployment benefits.
BTW Marcus I am all in favor of doing something, so long as it is something useful. The current package is on the right track, but has some useless rubbish in it that the Senate should strip out.
Bad Sam
Complain about this comment
#130
Rob,
I would gladly put my PPK up against your 16 years playing Rugby. I'm guessing I would win.
Fridays are for Firearms.
Yosemite Sam
Complain about this comment
133. At 10:32pm on 30 Jan 2009, SamTyler1969 wrote:
Sam,
The problem is, there is not enough money currently chasing any goods or services.
Complain about this comment
Something else to keep in mind: the Fed is currently selling Treasuries at very, very low interest rates. And, there is, right now at least, no shortage of takers (I remember reading somewhere that the 'sucking sound' in the world economy is all the world's wealth draining into the last refuge: US Treasury instruments).
So if you have to borrow to save the economy from collapse, then this is the time.
Tax cuts are nice politically, but some percentage of them is always going to go into savings, thereby not functioning as a stimulus. They also tend to disproportionately benefit those who pay the most tax (I heard the Republican counterproposal to Obama's package referred to as the Heritage Foundation's Blue Plate Special).
Oh, oh. I just referred to Obama's package. That will bring the Finbarr out, for certain.
Anyway, the way things are going, Bank of America might soon enough be 'the people's bank' for true.
Yours,
Pinko
Complain about this comment
137. At 11:24pm on 30 Jan 2009, robloop wrote:
129 ladycm
Re your: "How are we not getting this? Sex education is VERY important. If we don't spend the money to educate, we will be spending the money to raise the kid for the next 18 years. Hmm... which one is more expensive?"
Sex education should be the duty and responsibility of parents, not schools or other organizations, so if many parents haven't yet learned that, now is the time for government to tell them it is their duty and that in view of the economic mess their contribution will help the economy.
Last time I read, which was earlier today, sex education was in the 'package', which is why I commented as I did. I've raised three kids, one on my own and still at home, so my talk is not cheap on this score."
Yeh but some of us would rather STD, teenage pregnancies etc were prevented and that those with a pseudo moral point to bash did so with their own families and kept out of the wider debate.
It is obvious sexual health education is needed, plainly many parents could also use some.
Complain about this comment
130. At 9:53pm on 30 Jan 2009, robloop wrote:
119 SamTyler1969
Sam, read again what I wrote and see what I was saying, but please don't get sucked in by the vaccuous piffle written by Simon.
"What a pity she is not a male and did not spend time in school playgrounds where if you behaved as she does you got a fist in the teeth", is what I wrote."
Yes what a pity she wasn't beaten.
"Re your gentle warning, I played rugby for 16 years, had to do military service and beyond that have learned a few things that do a lot of damage in the name of 'self-defense', so the thought of anyone "hitting back" does not exactly terrify me. The best part is that I look mostly non-threatening."
But you beleive in hitting people who disagree with you - even if they are 60 year old women.
You want to be careful you might find that other people have had self defense lessons, they also have the law which tends to take a dim view of crude thuggery
Complain about this comment
Complain about this comment
122. At 8:47pm on 30 Jan 2009, robloop wrote:
"109 Simon21
I guess you are just too simple to resist making inane comments! From your last bit of nonsense, once again I see that your political correctness is beyond nauseating. Do you possibly have a thought in your head that is not regulated by what is now considered 'socially acceptable', no matter how dishonest, cowardly, and just plain stupid? "
Oh you will find beating women has nto been considered socially acceptable for several hundred years.
"And oh, by the way, if I don't bother to indulge in what you consider 'debate', forgive me,"
Well what is there to debate abount your what shall we call them, morals?
You don't beleive in abortion but think hitting a 60 year old woman would be a pleasure?
As I say one pities your wife if you have one.
Don't care for women much do you, wonder why.
"but I'm beyond dealing with each and every one of your stereotypically-driven assumptions, gross ignorance, and poor understanding of the English language."
But I understand your desire to hit a woman who "steps out of line". We arrest people like this surprisingly frequently.
Usually it is alcohol, jealousy, custody. Not often because the person takes a different political line.
"As to "step out of line," I'd be quite happy to have you "step out of line" in front of me.
I might just be able to do for you what is evident someone in life path failed to do."
Oh I am well used to handling bigoted yarpies thanks.
And of course unlike a 60 year old woman I can defend myself.
But I must in fairness warn that if you started swinging your fists at women or pensioners in most countries I've been in, let's just say you wouldn't be doing it for very long.
But let's not be cruel. you obviously cannot cope with the 20th (much less the 21st) century with women getting the vote, blackmen running for office, homosexuals openly walking the streets.
DO you not think you would be happier in North Korea where I am told they have none of these things.
Complain about this comment
119. At 8:22pm on 30 Jan 2009, SamTyler1969 wrote:
#109
Simon,
Is she Welsh? She could be a dragon if she was, couldn't she?"
Contrary to popular opinion and having had one's ear worn off by a number of the Welsh on this very subject - the symbol of Wales is not a dragon, but a gryphon.
Though in the eyes of our RSA poster a "dragon" seems to be a female who has the temerity to enter politics and disagree with his views and is not polite.
Though why dragons should be presumed to be female is anyone's guess, but we are not in the world of common sense here.
Complain about this comment
re: 132 rodidog
The failure of the Bush administration was not it's economic philosophy. it's failure was not investigating the books from various banks and brokerage houses that were over leveraged with toxic debt.
But the whole 'economic philosohy' of the Bush Administration was to allow, nay, to encourage, the various banks and brokerage houses to incur over-leveraged toxic debt.
Oh, and of course and tax cuts for the wealthy.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
Complain about this comment
137 robloop"
It's just great that you taught sex ed to your kids; so did I. And in a perfect world all parents would do the same. But they don't. And when they don't, it affects society in general. Which is why it is in the interests of all of us that they learn this in school. I'm not saying I think this should be in the stimulus package, but that your reasons for its not being there are a bit flawed.
Sex ed is not really all that different from driver's ed in the effects the lack of it has on everyone. For that matter, it shouldn't be separated out from any other type of education societies provide for their children. The country would be in pretty sad shape if it was decided that math and science classes were too expensive and now it will be up to parents to educate their kids in those subjects.
Complain about this comment
#136
Marby,
I totally agree. Bonuses are a reward for exceptional performance. My personal ethos is that unless our commitments to the owners of the business have been met AND an individual exceeds their personal goals, no bonus.
Sam B'stard
Complain about this comment
#142
I hear it's a large one. The biggest ever.
Pfsssssssssssst. Snark snark.
Phwoaaaaarrrrr.
Finbarr
Complain about this comment
#129
Lady,
Agreed. I need as much sex education as I can get. The international interweb just doesn't have enough kinky stuff on it to keep me occupied.
Pervert Sam
Complain about this comment
Rob,
And how was that? Plenty of inuendo from your lot, but all misplaced and mostly totally mendacious.Complain about this comment
Rob,
"when" not "if"Complain about this comment
Rather a lot of testosterone tonight, eh lads?
Cheers,
Pinko
Complain about this comment
Sulzberger, twit, see their grandfather's name (Ochs) in the list of signaturesComplain about this comment
Rodidog,
Nah! it was the war and the house price boom and cheap Chinese goods and cheap credit. Very little to do with tax cutsComplain about this comment
#141
Dog,
A result of uncertainty, people and businesses are unwilling to spend. And some contraction in M3 as bad debts and assets dissappear.
How do you overcome that? Someone has to be first to spend, in this case Uncle Sam and other governments.
Keynesian I know. But true. Tax cuts don't work, government spending does.
Economist Sam
Complain about this comment
#146
The Welsh,
Sorry.
Sam
Complain about this comment
From Financial Crisis to Sustainable Global Economy
Finally! Some perspective emerges...Peace and village life
ed
Small country, few people -
Hundreds of devices,
But none are used.
People ponder on death
And don't travel far.
They have carriages and boats,
But no one goes on board;
Weapons and armor,
But no one brandishes them.
They use knotted cords for counting.
Sweet their food,
Beautiful their clothes,
Peaceful their homes,
Delightful their customs.
Neighboring countries are so close
You can hear their chickens and dogs.
But people grow old and die
Without needing to come and go.
Lao Tzu
Complain about this comment
116 Simon21
Read what I said to Sam, maybe through the fog you’ll just manage to grasp what said. Sure, I love the Springboks, particularly when they absolute thrash England at Twickenham.
As to your incessant carpings about South African history, apartheid, and your ignorant accusations, I have nothing against England and the English, even married one, but where racism and cruel things done is concerned you and your nation should be one of the last to throw stones. I'll remind you that it was British Indian Army troops commanded by British officers who in 1919 wiped out 1,000 or more Indians at Amritsar in the Punjab after they gathered for a peaceful demonstration. They even shot down people as they were climbing over walls to escape, but after all, to the British they were not British.
When controlling parts of what is now Iraq, if villagers didn't pay taxes the British would send up a Sopworth Camel or two and strafe villages, killing men, women and children to convince them to 'cough up'. After all, they were not British.
Among many other things, the British started the Anglo-Boer War in order to grab what had been discovered in the Boer republics, gold and diamonds in quantities never before found. After failing to defeat the totally outnumbered Boer forces, they sent huge numbers of troops through the two Boer republics, burning to the ground everything, killing all livestock they didn't
'take' - in fact steal. They took the women and children away, put them into concentration camps where in appalling conditions in two years or less, 28,000 died.
After the war they treated Afrikaners (the Boers) like dirt. Why? Because they were not British and thus not 'best'. The war, its destruction, death of women and children, and later the discrimination and contemptuous attitudes of British bureaucrats, laid the foundation to bitter attitudes that bred the apartheid ideology.
The British then introduced a 'pass' system to restrict movement of black people.
So take your self-righteous, judgmental, accusatory garbage and stuff it up your jumper. I never supported apartheid and your ignorant comments based upon preconceptions, shallow knowledge of events and the country, shows you up for what you are, an ignoramus.
Complain about this comment
#146. Simon21: "Contrary to popular opinion and having had one's ear worn off by a number of the Welsh on this very subject - the symbol of Wales is not a dragon, but a gryphon."
Nonsense - it's a Red Dragonn and always has been. The other national symbols are the Leek and the Daffodil. If you can't get this right, what hope is there for your other statements? Incidentally, the dragon St George fought, one of the symbols of England and to be found on Crown coins, is assumed to be male. Get the little things right and maybe the larger will follow.
Complain about this comment
140 SamTyler
By PPK did you mean the automatic weapon, or Post Punk Kitchen? If the latter, is your cooking that bad that it would wipe me out?
Complain about this comment
The numbers are bleak. January 2009 was the worst January in the history of the stock market, a 9% drop. One or two bright spots. Exon Mobil did well. Most corporations face looming disaster, most small businesses too.
At the port in Long Beach California, there are 170 acres of brand new cars dealers won't take delivery on. Unsold new and used cars are stacking up around the country like cordwood. If this goes on for another year, I think you'll be able to buy a new car for about $5000 if you have cash. Expo, Home Depot's high end chain of stores (gold plated faucets, $10,000 stainless steel refrigerators) is going out of business. The doors will close in April. They have about 10-20% off sales so far. I looked in one yesterday. It was empty, no shoppers. They're crazy if they think anyone will pay those kinds of prices. Linens n' Things also going out has the same delusions. In a depression, cash is king. Some food prices remain absurdly high. I don't see that going on much longer. My international cheese index I invented still puts Europe off the map. Roquefort Cheese $28 a pound. Stilton about $20. Domestic porterhouse steak on sale $4 a pound, Angus certified $6. They'll cut it any way you want it. Some is beautifully marbleized. I like my about 2" thick. Bought a couple of hundred dollars worth last week. Been eating steak til it's coming out of my eyeballs. No imported cheese though.
Complain about this comment
#162
Well,
A big girls blouse like yerself would probably be weeping from my vindaloo.
But I really meant my Polizeipistole Kriminellmodell. It is rather nice and very small. Easily concealed. Perfect for dealing with bullies.
Sam
Complain about this comment
#163
Only a Crapaud would know so much about Cheese.
Sam Sharpe
Complain about this comment
140 SamTyler1969
I've been waiting for you to come up with 'Yosemite Sam'. A favourite once. Even recall the time the fiery little guy landed in hell. He was so nervous that when the devil asked him his name, he said
"Yosemite-semite Sam". Said the devil,
"Well Yosemite-semite Sam...." Okay, some dumb things stick!
146 David_Cunard
A "dragon" in this case, was an ill-tempered and arrogant woman, not simply a woman who had "the timerity to enter politics". Don't put words in a person's mouth or make assumptions, they just could be totally erroneous and in this case they were. A great and famous South African female politician, Helen Suzman, recently died. It was reported at length by the BBC and newspapers all over the world. I met and chatted to her on at least two occasions, in fact enjoyed her "timerity" in politics, but the difference is that Helen Suzman had enormous courage, class, and didn't put on phony facades.
148 Bere54
If you were to re-read my posting, I think you'll appreciate that I was not proposing parents teach kid math and science, just the more personal matter of sex education.
My point in raising the sex education matter, was that 'sex education', not math or science education, has been reported as part of the stimulus package. So I fail to see this as a priority in desperate economic times. Maybe they should rather hold classes to teach parents how to give their children sex education and thus cut education costs.
152 Ed Iglehart
I read. Evidently you don't, so if you don't know about ACORN's illegal activities don't expect me to teach you, and don't make false accusations just becuase you don't know something.
154 chronophobe
You're spot on there.
Complain about this comment
Dragons?
Ladies?
Ahhh, dragon ladies. I'm married to one (born in the year of, and a true wood dragon).
Now this leads to Martha Wainwright (and her mom, Kate Mcgarrigle) playing the tune "Year of the Dragon."
And while were on Martha and Kate, might as well have a listen to Kate's tune Mendocino from the same set.
Cheers,
Canadian Pinko
Complain about this comment
#166. robloop: 146 David_Cunard. A "dragon" in this case, was an ill-tempered and arrogant woman . . ."
You have the wrong guy and the wrong post - my only contribution to the 'dragon debate' was to correct Simon21 at #146 who stated emphatically that the creature which symbolises Wales is a gryphon. He was, and is, wrong.
Complain about this comment
This one is actually on topic: Kate, Anna, Emmylou, and Mary Black (along with Rufous Wainwright) singing Hard Times from the Transatlantic Sessions.
Cheers,
Canadian Pinko
Complain about this comment
#140. SamTyler1969: "I would gladly put my PPK up against your 16 years playing Rugby. I'm guessing I would win."
But supposing you did not have it with you? Not everything can be solved with a Polizeipistole Kriminellmodell - brute force can be very effective. I hope you are licensed to carry a concealed weapon in the event that someone bigger and more muscular than yourself attacks.
Complain about this comment
#170
David,
Why would you not be licensed to carry?
Confused Sam
Complain about this comment
168 David_Cunard
You are right, and my apologies for addressing my blunt response to you.
You are right about the Welsh symbol. The dragon is even on their national flag - and rugby jersey.
146 Simon21
Simon, this was meant for you:
A "dragon" in this case, was an ill-tempered and arrogant woman, not simply a woman who had "the timerity to enter politics". Don't put words in a person's mouth or make assumptions, they just could be totally erroneous and in this case they were. A great and famous South African female politician, Helen Suzman, recently died. It was reported at length by the BBC and newspapers all over the world. I met and chatted to her on at least two occasions, in fact enjoyed her "timerity" in politics, but the difference is that Helen Suzman had enormous courage, class, and didn't put on phony facades.
Complain about this comment
147. At 00:48am on 31 Jan 2009, chronophobe
No, sub-prime loans came via Freddie & Frannie Mac, encouraged by democrats to help people who would not ordinarily qualify for a house loan to obtain one.
Complain about this comment
157. At 01:44am on 31 Jan 2009, SamTyler1969
Tax cuts alone can no longer work to fix the economy, I agree. My point was about the previous tax cuts of 2001 & 2003 stimulating the economy, which they did. Not everyone saved their check. Right now, I believe only the US Government can fix this mess with massive spending. But it needs to be a combination of infrastructure, tax cuts, and unemployment insurance. Unfortunately, that's only a portion of what this current bill is. It's upside down.
Complain about this comment
156. At 01:31am on 31 Jan 2009, Ed Iglehart
Nah! The money spent on the war, while helping certain companies, is not responsible for the stimulus in the overall economy.
Yes, cheap Chinese goods contributed and helped places like Walmart. I'm sure many people spent their money from the tax cuts there. We took our refund and purchased a new gas stove and microwave.
I do agree that housing starts, made possible with cheap money, helped drive the economy. It also helped that the capital gains tax was cut to stimulate those housing starts.
Complain about this comment
#71. SamTyler1969: "Why would you not be licensed to carry?"
Seems paranoid to me - what if everyone carried a concealed weapon? Doing so only gives more fodder to the pro-firearms lobby. You could not carry a concealed weapon onto an aircraft, a ship or even in a Turkish bath - and it's in places like that where 16 years of Rugby could come in handy.
Complain about this comment
134. At 10:49pm on 30 Jan 2009, rodidog wrote:
129. At 9:53pm on 30 Jan 2009, ladycm wrote:
"How are you NOT getting it? This is suppose to be an "EMERGENCY RECOVERY PLAN TO PUT PEOPLE BACK TO WORK". You are worried about sex education and STD's? When the economy goes in the tank, say depression, the least of our children's worries will be sex ed. Folks will be at the bottom of Maslow's pyramid looking for food and shelter. The only thing in this plan should be infrastructure projects, tax cuts, and additional money for unemployment insurance. It's time to face reality, we are down to basics".
Because having another mouth to feed is expensive. Welfare, WIC, DSHS whatever you want to call, it cost us all. Especially in hard times! It's important always; no matter the state of the economy. Children cost a lot of money. This is the basics right here; we already have to support many children, elderly etc. Teaching people to be in a better financial situation before they have children; what a concept???
Complain about this comment
151. At 01:13am on 31 Jan 2009, SamTyler1969 wrote:
#129
Lady,
"Agreed. I need as much sex education as I can get. The international interweb just doesn't have enough kinky stuff on it to keep me occupied.
Pervert Sam"
That's what the stimulus package is for right? They wouldn't let me post my last comment to you. It must have been too stimulusey
Complain about this comment
143. At 00:16am on 31 Jan 2009, Simon21:
"Yeh but some of us would rather STD, teenage pregnancies etc were prevented and that those with a pseudo moral point to bash did so with their own families and kept out of the wider debate.
It is obvious sexual health education is needed, plainly many parents could also use some".
Parents need to be #1 in sex ed. But the problem is, if you are a teenage mom who lives in poverty; the chances that your child will also be a poor teenage parent are pretty good. It's important that this cycle is stopped. This has caused a huge burden on society for years. We should not ignore it because the economy is bad; we should focus even more in desperate times.
137. At 11:24pm on 30 Jan 2009, robloop:
I think you are level headed and I respect your opinion but, we are just going to have to agree to disagree I suppose. As an American tax, payer I think it would be WELL WORTH IT to spend my hard earned money on educating people on how to improve their life and giving them the tools to do so. This kind of investment will pay off... forever.
Complain about this comment
07:22am on 31 Jan 2009, ladycm wrote:
Because having another mouth to feed is expensive. Welfare, WIC, DSHS whatever you want to call, it cost us all. Especially in hard times! It's important always; no matter the state of the economy. Children cost a lot of money. This is the basics right here; we already have to support many children, elderly etc. Teaching people to be in a better financial situation before they have children; what a concept???
I'm sure the children will feel grateful for all that support when their parents lose their jobs and home. Just think, they can pitch the new government issued tent right in front of Social Sevices and be that much closer to the free soup kitchen and free sex ed class. Maybe on Tuesday's they can watch a film on how to put a condom on a cucumber.
Complain about this comment
180. At 07:47am on 31 Jan 2009, rodidog:
"Just think, they can pitch the new government issued tent right in front of Social Sevices and be that much closer to the free soup kitchen and free sex ed class".
It's called having perspective. There was only like 330 million devoted to sex ed; out of 819 billion? That's like not buying a car because you only planned on spending 10,000 and the car is 10,100. It's change. We are arguing over nonsense anyways, since those whiney republicans wanted it out of the bill then didn't even vote for it. They better pray the economy doesn't get better or, they will be written off for good. P.S. I think I saw that video in school, not sure if it was on a Tuesday though.
Complain about this comment
163. MarcusAureliusII
has never yet been able to let a fact get in the way of a good sneer.
The price of Roquefort in the US may just have something to do with the outgoing regime slapping a 300 per cent duty on it the week before the inauguration . . .
Complain about this comment
181. At 08:09am on 31 Jan 2009, ladycm
I would be willing to give up $330,000,000 if it meant getting rid of both the Democrat's and Republicans. We could have a special election with no former office holders allowed. I mean, at this point, how bad could it be? Just a thought. :)
P.S. They never let us boy's see that movie when I was in school.
Complain about this comment
Rob,
I do, and I can spot unfounded innuendo as opposed to fact.Complain about this comment
Rodidog,
One of the very few retail organisations to show increases in the recent quarter...Cheap credit was also a result of thee Chinese appetite for US debt, and aren't capital gains somewhat reduced for personal dwellings? And the war spending, while perhaps concentrated in crony companies, certainly trickled down at least a little, and provided employment.Personally, I was baffled that all those blank checks Shrub & Co were signing didn't result in rising interest rates, but obviously I underestimated the Chinese appetite. I'm still a bit amazed, and it wouldn't surprise me if problems in that area weren't involved in the next phase of the crisis....So far, not a whisper as the whole world and his brother rush into the "refuge" of US debt - irrational faith in the face of the obvious risk of ending up sitting on
Complain about this comment
Rodidog,
One of the very few retail organisations to show increases in the recent quarter...Cheap credit was also a result of thee Chinese appetite for US debt, and aren't capital gains somewhat reduced for personal dwellings? And the war spending, while perhaps concentrated in crony companies, certainly trickled down at least a little, and provided employment.Personally, I was baffled that all those blank checks Shrub & Co were signing didn't result in rising interest rates, but obviously I underestimated the Chinese appetite. I'm still a bit amazed, and it wouldn't surprise me if problems in that area weren't involved in the next phase of the crisis....
So far, not a whisper as the whole world and his brother rush into the "refuge" of US debt - irrational faith in the face of the obvious risk of ending up sitting on a pile of low-yielding obligations denominated in a depreciating currency....but I've been wrong before, usually for having too much faith in common sense. I'm still in dollars, and living in Sterling, so I'm allright, Jack!
Salaam, etc.
ed
Complain about this comment
Rodidog,
On this matter, we can find some common ground!Peace and an end to Parties
ed
Complain about this comment
From one of my favourite columns
And, a biblical referenceWhere was Joseph when we needed him? Well, actually, he was still with us as recently as 2003, but who was listening?Don't say we weren't warned.
Providence and Fair Shares
ed
Complain about this comment
Peston transcendent
Who?
Complain about this comment
184 Ed Iglehart
You are extremely petty. You are wrong, but determined that you will not admit it.
Complain about this comment
Rob,
I guess it's petty in your view to expect accusations to be factually backed. ACORN have not been demonstrated to have done wrong.
Prove the converse or shut up.
Complain about this comment
190. At 3:58pm on 31 Jan 2009, robloop wrote:
184 Ed Iglehart
You are extremely petty. You are wrong, but determined that you will not admit it."
Why not threaten to punch him? Simpler than trying to find any facts.
Course it is a bit of a risk
Complain about this comment
To#100Chronophobe
Thank you for the link to Paul Krugman. It seems that he and I agree but he expresses himself much better than I.
My understanding of economics is simplistic, save money, pay cash, do not spend money you do not have. However, I also know that if an ailing child needs care, money may have to be borrowed to pay the doctor. Sometimes it is necessary to spend money in order to make money.
The damage done by budget cuts for our children and most vulnerable makes me feel ill.
Complain about this comment
To#188Edinglehart
I have never forgotten the lessons of my youth, use it up, wear it out, recycle, waste nothing.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
183. At 09:04am on 31 Jan 2009, rodidog wrote:
181. At 08:09am on 31 Jan 2009, ladycm
"I would be willing to give up $330,000,000 if it meant getting rid of both the Democrat's and Republicans. We could have a special election with no former office holders allowed. I mean, at this point, how bad could it be? Just a thought. :)
P.S. They never let us boy's see that movie when I was in school".
Look! Something we can agree on. I do have to admit though, I am pretty proud of my president right now. I know it's only been two weeks but, so what? P.S. That's because boys are too immature for vegetable videos.
Complain about this comment
191 Ed Iglehart
Ed, Why don't you read and learn instead of making ignorant comments based simply upon you personal bias. Just because the Republicans in their disarray don't have the stomach to do anything about ACORN doesn't make the latter innocent of shabby tactics and thorough dishonesty. And don't in the infantile manner you have tell me to shut up.
Complain about this comment
It is my understanding that slurs against ACORN were "shabby tactics" and proved untrue.
I also understand that ACORN works to improve and preserve communities which is much needed as more and more houses and property go into foreclosure or become vacant.
Complain about this comment
To#196 Ladycm
I am feeling positive about our President, as well.
To better days!
Complain about this comment
197. At 6:09pm on 31 Jan 2009, robloop wrote:
191 Ed Iglehart
Ed, Why don't you read and learn instead of making ignorant comments based simply upon you personal bias. Just because the Republicans in their disarray don't have the stomach to do anything about ACORN doesn't make the latter innocent of shabby tactics and thorough dishonesty. And don't in the infantile manner you have tell me to shut up.2
So you don't have any evidence. In which case take Ed's advice as you hae nothing to contribute but the usual r/w bigotry.
Complain about this comment
Consider this:
What if people who are in foreclosure just refuse to leave their homes and those who are homeless chose an empty home to occupy?
What would the bankers then do? Raise an army to evict them. That would be interesting.
Complain about this comment
#178
Ooo err. Now we're talking.
Snark Snark
Finbarr Samders
Complain about this comment
I am feeling positive that the only thing that has changed is the direction that crooked politicians are throwing your taxes.
It cost the poor people of America a record $700 million to get President Obama elected... I wonder where poor people got $700 million to give? Poor George Soros!
Now, the former senator with the most liberal voting record in the Senate can try and redirect $800 Billion in future taxes to a most titilating and liberally stimulating stimulus. Shameful indeed. It's an Obama-nation!
To better days when a fiscally responsibile government allows business failures to fail.
3 years 11 months and 20 days at the soonest.
Complain about this comment
There could be discord!
I am reading that some Republican governors are crying for bail out money and want their representatives to vote Yea.
Citizens, I say confusion to our enemies!
Complain about this comment
To#203Rsnail
It was OUR money and perhaps he is OUR President.
Complain about this comment
Addendum to Rsnail
Please see my #201
We have pitch forks and I am an excellent knitter.
Complain about this comment
I thought that all the slurs about ACORN came from Fox "News." And that they had been disproved, all except the one about being slightly disorganized, and that is hardly a slur since the best of us can suffer disorganization at one time or another.
I am in general never positive about anything, but must admit I am feeling positive about our new president.
201, aquairizonagal:
I've wondered that myself. Also, what would happen, do you suppose, if people who can no longer pay rent just stay in their apartments? I know it's hard on the landlords, but what are people supposed to do? FYI, in my state it is against the law to evict anyone for any reason from November through March. Too harsh.
Complain about this comment
203, R-Snail:
It is a myth that Obama was the most liberal senator. He was in the Senate for only four years, and for the last two of those years, Bernie Sanders was also in the Senate. There is NO ONE more liberal or to the left of our Bernie. No one. It's why we elevated him from the House to the Senate. We adore him.
Complain about this comment
206, aquarizongal:
I don't knit but I can be revolting. Can I join?
Complain about this comment
206. aquarizonagal wrote:
Consider this:
What if people who are in foreclosure just refuse to leave their homes and those who are homeless chose an empty home to occupy?
What would the bankers then do? Raise an army to evict them. That would be interesting.
I realize that today's society declares people should not be burdened by actually living up to the contracts, commitments and mortgages that they signed. We live in a victimhood based society where we blame the bad bankers for lending us money we couldn't afford to borrow.
While I have obviously have sympathy for anyone who loses their home. It's hard to be too sympathetic when I see the arrogant 25-35 year olds in California complain they can't afford the $800,000 house they bought on two WalMart salaries. I deliberately chose to live in a smaller house for 29 years and have now paid for it. Now my taxes are going to help those too stupid or greedy to read the fine print. I would be better off if I had greedily lived beyond my means.
Complain about this comment
208. bere54
I can cut and paste, but hyperlinks are to Ed-ish for me. Google quickly pulls up this data that you call myth.
Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., was the most liberal senator in 2007, according to National Journal's 27th annual vote ratings.
Complain about this comment
To#207Bere54
I think there might be that same law in several states. This is hard on landlords with nasty renters but truly life saving for those who have fallen on hard times.
I would say that our times are hard, no.
Complain about this comment
To#209Bere54
Fun!
Let us see how fast they can run.
Complain about this comment
And liberal is....
Complain about this comment
To#210Rsnail
We, also, have lived within our means and we have raised our children to do the same.
I believe that the examples you have cited are smaller in comparison to those who are suffering from job loss, health costs and a government that has placed profits for the wealthy on the backs of those who actually WORK for a living.
I have stated in a prior post that in my lifetime I have seen the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, while those of us in the middle work to survive while supporting both.
However, I will not throw the baby out with the dirty bathwater. We need to help those who are the most vulnerable and hold to account those most responsible.
Complain about this comment
200 Simon21
If you and Ed read something other than left-wing liberal local 'rags' that carefully avoided harsh realities about Obama and ACORN, you'd have read about it too. And now I haven't the slightest intention of digging it up for clowns like you.
Bigotry? What a twit you are! How does questioning the integrity of an organization amount to 'bigotry? Pray, do let us know!
Complain about this comment
aquarizongal:
Thanks for #215 to R-Snail. I was going to say the same myself. Every time I turn on the radio I hear more news of people thrown out of work. It can happen to anybody these days. Why do some insist that it's only irresponsible people who now can't pay their mortgages or rent?
The eviction law here in Vermont is mainly because the winters are so harsh, not a time to be forcing anyone to move. A moving van wouldn't even be able to get up my street right now. But you're right; it's tough on the landlords. They just have to make sure to get rid of nasty tenants in the summer.
R-Snail -
Obama may have been the most liberal Democrat (and I've seen conflicting reports on that), but not the most liberal Senator; Bernie Sanders is an Independent. And a Socialist.
Complain about this comment
#176
David,
I can only observe that I belong to several sporting clays clubs and that we have never had a theft of so much as a snickers bar, despite the fact that there are many very expensive and quite portable items lying around.
I put this down to everyone being heavily armed.
Gunner Sam
Complain about this comment
207 Bere54
One things that never ceases to amaze me about Liberals like you, when you hear or read something negative about an organization or individual you favour, it becomes a "slur" - or something equivalent. During the election campaign I saw negative reports about Barack Obama's
background from a number of sources, but if I were to swallow you inclination they were simply 'slurs'. What an avoidance of reality! I seldom see Fox News and thus never saw ACORN discussed there, but on three or four occasions saw it discussed on CNN - that unconvincingly went to enormous lengths to cover up anything negative about Obama and ACORN. I also read about its 'creation' of votes. And as a matter of interest, one discussion about ACORN occured when Larry King had as his guest Bill Maher - you know, the guy who makes poor impressions of a comedian.
208 Bere54
Re Obama and what R-Snail has written in his 203, before this last election I, like most individuals, knew nothing about him, and while finding out more about him I read and heard that he was 'the most liberal senator in the U.S. Senate'. So evidently, no "myth"
- unless that is how you want to construe it, just as you construe ACORN to be as clean as a whistle.
Complain about this comment
And liberal is...
Complain about this comment
ToSamtyler1969
Heavily armed may be a very good thing.
Complain about this comment
To Robloop
I think that some of us on this blog consider the word "Liberal" to be a compliment.
Liberal: open minded, caring about others as well as ourselves, live and let live, willing to meet the other person half way, peacemakers, preserving the environment, respect for those who disagree with us etc.
Please call me a liberal. I am proud!
Now, I am finished here.
Complain about this comment
222. At 00:31am on 01 Feb 2009, aquarizonagal:
"Please call me a liberal. I am proud"!
I am also proud to be a liberal. Not too many conservatives where I live. I am proud of that too.
Complain about this comment
219. At 11:25pm on 31 Jan 2009, robloop:
"Larry King had as his guest Bill Maher - you know, the guy who makes poor impressions of a comedian".
I totally agree with you. He is not funny, and I am tired of hearing about how he is staunchly agnostic. Who cares?
Complain about this comment
207 Bere54
One things that never ceases to amaze me about Liberals like you, when you hear or read something negative about an organization or individual you favour, it becomes a "slur" - or something equivalent. During the election campaign I saw negative reports about Barack Obama's
background from a number of sources, but if I were to swallow you inclination they were simply 'slurs'. What an avoidance of reality! I seldom see Fox News and thus never saw ACORN discussed there, but on three or four occasions saw it discussed on CNN - that unconvincingly went to enormous lengths to cover up anything negative about Obama and ACORN. I also read about its 'creation' of votes. And as a matter of interest, one discussion about ACORN occured when Larry King had as his guest Bill Maher - you know, the guy who makes poor impressions of a comedian."
And one thing that worries everyone about you is that there are indications that you do not know how utterely ridiculous you make yourself.
You genuinely think (or seem to) sprouting half understood right wing slogans etc is somehow "proof" and "evidence" because you say them.
Take your ludicrous stand over ACORN. Because there have been various slurs the slurs must be true.
Presumably you hate jews based on the same sort of logic, lots of slurs there.
It's this lack of rationality and intelligence that explains why the far roght is so out of touch these days.
Complain about this comment
216. At 10:49pm on 31 Jan 2009, robloop wrote:
200 Simon21
If you and Ed read something other than left-wing liberal local 'rags' that carefully avoided harsh realities about Obama and ACORN, you'd have read about it too. "
Yeah so you have no evidence, only delusions
More yarpie ranting?
"And now I haven't the slightest intention of digging it up for clowns like you.
Bigotry? What a twit you are! How does questioning the integrity of an organization amount to 'bigotry? Pray, do let us know!"
because you have no questioned anything just thrown out a few far right slurs.
But hey prove us wrong, provide the evidence.
And then show us the evidence that jews rule the world, black men are a inferior, homosexuals are not "natural" etc etc.
Complain about this comment
Complain about this comment
Rob,
I read the Wall SStreet Journal, the New York Times, London Times, Financial Times, Barrons Magazine, and sometimes The Independent and the Guardian.Nowhere have I seen any evidence of wrongdoing by ACORN
Complain about this comment
222 aquarizonagal
I'm sure you appreciate that I meant
'Liberal' in a derogatory or disparaging sense.
But let us examine your criteria for being a liberal. 'Open-minded' - I too am 'open-minded' - but only to an extent because I have boundaries beyond which I consider the 'open-mindedness' of which I think you refer, as lacking standards that sometimes facilitate circumstances that either border on or surpass the bounds of depravity. Liberals generally seem to have either no boundaries or just very sloppy boundaries. Anything goes, even when harmful to society.
'Caring about others' - I risks my liberty over a ten year period standing up for the rights of others, so in that regard have nothing to prove. And how much do you care about others when allowing unborn children to be killed in abortion clinics, or allowed to die when they survive a botched abortion?
'Live and let live' - I stand for that, but from liberals on this blog I see little to no evidence of it, mostly astounding intolerance toward anyone who doesn't share their narrow views. To that I have often reacted with similar intolerance. However, in regard to your claim of 'live and let live', reading the comments today about this writer, Charles Krauthammer, concerning whom I know a little, but not much, was truly a sight to behold. Even those who knew little about him quickly dismissed him as utterly worthless. 'How dare he not think like us'? was the attitude. It was vicious and spoke volumes about the intolerant mindset of his condemners.
'Willing to meet the other person half way'? You truly must be joking! After what I've seen here over the last few months, that attitude is the furthest thing from the minds of 95 percent or more of posters here. Of those who probably would meet one half-way, I would name Sam Tyler, chronophobe, Waterman, and probably dceilar. For the rest it is a case of 'my way or the highway'.
'Peacemakers' - based on my comments above, where it the evidence?
'Preserving the environment'? Do you seriously think you have a monopoly on that? Teddy Roosevelt did more to preserve U.S. wilderness than any other president, and I believe he was both a Republican and conservative.
'Repect for those who disagree with us'. Again let's be serious. After all I've just said above, let's not waste time going there.
Considering all you said and the extent to which you liberals don't live up to it, I believe you are living an illusion. A well-meaning illusion perhaps, but still an illusion.
You are flattering yourself.
Complain about this comment
228, robloop:
Just because you know little about Charles Krauthammer, why would you assume everyone else writing about him knows as little as you do? I've read his column for years and consider him to be a right-wing, rather disagreeable, and not very factual writer. I make this judgment based on what he writes. So my disagreeing with his opinions and saying so makes me intolerant? You appear to think that those who agree with you are tolerant and those who disagree are intolerant. That's an odd way to see the world.
Calling someone "you liberal" as a pejorative when you know very little about that person's views on most things controversial is rather narrow-minded. Notice I don't say you are narrow-minded; I suggest that what you write sounds narrow-minded.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
229 bere54
If you were to go back to posting written this morning, you could see for yourself to what I am referring about posters comments and attitudes. As to the rest you've written, I don't need to know people personally, to recognize in what they write just how intolerant they are. As to narrow-mindedness I've seen it in volumes here in the name of liberalism. It has been quite an eye-opener.
Complain about this comment
229 bere54
In fairness I will add this to what I originally wrote, the intolerance is not just from one side, it manifests itself from both sides.
Complain about this comment
215. aquaAZgal:
I fail to see anything in your post that states your opinion regarding personal responsibility. So I ask you directly for a yes / no answer:
1. Do you agree that a person who signs a mortgage should be responsible to have read and understand the contract to include comprehending his/her responsibility to manage risk?
Complain about this comment
Rob,
Any evidence to back up your opinion of ACORN?
Complain about this comment
This discussion gives me hope! Cause so many people of opposite views are united in willing to do good for US (=the world). But before pro and contra over BO steps we must find the causes.... The Wstreet bubbles etc, I think, is very shallow explanation. The all world after crisis, its political/economic configuration will not be the same.Today it becomes very clear. Injections are of great need, but not only they. Such most complicated problem cannot be solved by very simple method.More money without any other
(f.ex. legislation) doings is suicidical.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
226 Simon21
Just more of the same old simple-minded accusations, Simon. It’s pitiful! Without any sound basis you’ve made your "bigotry" and "racism" jibes, but now it's Jews that you've wildly thrown into the mix, the very people you've made clear through comments about Israel, that you hate. That one really put you in true perspective.
What you’ve given me again here are the usual barely coherent rants. One looks at the screen and thinks, what on earth is this scramble brain trying to express? And then to add to the pleasure, in your frenzied effort to add insult upon insult you become positively unintelligible. Really no self-contol or composure.
And by the way, you again didn't explain how me questioning ACORN's integrity equated to "bigotry". Please do try.
Simon, the reality is that ‘grass’ really does make a mess of the mind, bi-polar mania, schizophrenia, hallucinations, depression, and so on, and in your case it shows.
You really should take care of yourself.
227 & 234 Ed Iglehart
I haven't the slightest intention of going around in circles over this matter. Unless operating in a perpetual fog you have got to know that serious questions were raised about ACORN misconduct, so go play your games. I saw what I did on CNN and read elsewhere, can't replay CCN, and have no intention of scrounging around for articles that with absolute inevitability you and you pathetic crony, Simon, will immediate discredit.
Complain about this comment
robloop # 228 wrote,
"Of those who probably would meet one half-way, I would name Sam Tyler, chronophobe, Waterman, and probably dceilar."
Thank you for including my name in such an illustrious list with SamTyler, chronophobe and dceilar, but I feel you are mistaken and the comparison is extremely tenuous.
May I first object to the deference and misplaced courteous use of the large "dubya". Nobody appreciates it in this day and age, having his name incorrectly written and linked to a previous infamous President, since it places an albatross on one's shoulders or around the neck that could be difficult to remove. May I beg you to use the lower case. Think about the small silent p as in water, which describes my prose, and you will not go far wrong. Label me head case rather than upper case please.
SamTyler, chronophobe and dceilar are all successful men of the world, whose respective attributes include wealth, business acumen, automatic small arms, classic top cars and motor bikes, street cred, humourous postings and that certain -je ne sais quoi, showing a balanced approach. High heels, the tendency to pink and beaver preferences apart, they are the creme de la creme.
For my part I can not hope to attain their heights and can only offer a pair of strong arms, a tractor and push bike, field cred, hoe hoe hoe when the weather permits and that -je ne sais pas so prominent in my imbalanced responses to bring to the party. Occasional cutting comments that I try to reserve for the garbage bin of history but I am just a plant on the blog who raises it's head whether the climatic conditions are favourable or not.
Perhaps the only thing we have in common, what all of us have in common, is the ability to spread manure when the necessity arises to stimulate the harvest.
I do not agree with your observations about others here, feeling neither they, nor you are weeds on the blog.
Justin introduces new words out of mid air and deliberately places spelling mistakes that more often than not do not catch my eye. MAII occasionally complicates the issue by placing a hidden fact. Ed and your good self with damaged hearts, carry a cross / cross on your shoulders and Happy makes the sparks fly. David for the melody, GnR for the doubts, ish-ish for the squirls, Saints for the blessings, and the others and our feminine brethren to salt or sugar the pot where necessary. What a perfect mix of ingredients, to keep each others grey cells ticking over..
"You can't trust water: Even a straight stick turns crooked in it."
W. C. Fields
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
And, Unless operating in a perpetual fog., you will have noted that all such "serious" questions were proved to be in unfounded.Unless operating from your perpetual fog, you can dredge up something substantially dmonstrating otherwise....
Unless operating in a perpetual fog
Complain about this comment
robloop, Europe is a cesspool of racism, bigotry, class warfare, hatred for everyone including Jews, Roma (Gypsies), Americans, orientals, Latinos, Africans, Moslems, everyone different from who they are including each other. Why do you think they were at war for over 2000 years until America stepped in? Those that left and came to America were cleaned up to a large degree, most importantly between their ears where the real excrement was lodged. Those that didn't and stayed, invented perfume to cover it up. The EUSSR is just such a brand of perfume. Think about it, they are just no damned good. They think they are better than everyone else in the world when they are in fact among the very worst. And they can't believe anyone thinks badly of them because they are so much in love with themselves. Don't waste your money going there unless you feel compelled to see it up close for yourself in all its cynical ugliness. If you want to see the canals of Venice or the Bistros of Paris, go to Las Vegas where the water has no stench of raw sewage and the waiters aren't surly. I think you'll find the prices much lower too.
Complain about this comment
wma,
I blush.
Your posts, if I may say, have something of both the wisdom and humour of a Voltaire's honest Turk, who, while watching the effendis come and go, is content with his twenty acres, the bounty of his harvest, and his real mocha.
And it is this honest man of the soil, you will recall, who brings Candide to his own epiphany: "I also know," said Candide, "that we must cultivate our garden."
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
Complain about this comment
re: 231 roblooop As to the rest you've written, I don't need to know people personally, to recognize in what they write just how intolerant they are.
Ed, intolertant? Aquarizonagal intolerant? Many others as well ... ?????
Don't confuse being opinionated with being intolerant. I think you will find that most here will engage in spirited conversation, but without malice. Most are willing to confront their own prejudices, as well as those of others.
But it is, as always, a two way street.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
Complain about this comment
This is an experiment. I am having trouble understanding what it is about this post that the Mods object to.
So, first the link: from the Times Online.
Complain about this comment
Now, my little intro blurb:
More clouds on the horizon? Oooooh, that one looks like . . . Herbert Hoover????
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
238 lower case "w"atermanaquarius
"automatic small arms, classic top cars and motor bikes, street cred, humourous postings and that certain -je ne sais quoi, showing a balanced approach. High heels, the tendency to pink and beaver preferences apart, they are the creme de la creme."
How long does it take you to come up with these posts? You must know I think you are "brilliant," as they say in the UK. I particularly enjoy your "word play". Given enough time (and google) I can usually keep up but have yet to work out (was it?) "Mackers." More hints required.
Complain about this comment
"The Scottish Play" ;-)
Complain about this comment
To#233Rsnail
I did not see your post until now. I had other things to do this past night.
Of course I believe in personal responsibility. In my opinion we have too little of this in our society in these days. If you read any more of my posts besides my #215 you might see that.
My concern is for those people who are responsible, pay their bills, save their money but through job loss or health issues see all they have worked for lost. Do we not have some responsibility as communities to help them at least keep their homes?
Is it compassionate or even ethical for families to pay for life saving medical care by losing everything they own?
I have tried to answer your questions. Will you answer mine. I would like to know.
Thank you.
Complain about this comment
chronophobe
"Times Online"
Do we understand Obama is pulling back from this position? We are always told Republican Presidents are better for Canada but seem to prefer Democrat. I don't know, they just seem more like "us"!
Oh and don't think I didn't notice you trying to "outdo" lowercase 'w' man! With all your quotes from Candide, Voltaire, etc. - I jest.
Complain about this comment
To#228Robloop
Some of your posts are difficult for me to process.
Let me just say that I do not consider the terms 'liberal' or 'conservative' to be disparaging in any way.
You also do not know me nor those life events that have shaped my heart and mind for eight decades.
Let there be amity and peace between us.
Complain about this comment
Ed Iglehart
"The Scottish Play"
waterman gave me that "hint" along with "the bard" and so thought Macbeth. Did not think to google the "Scottish Play" (which I just did) and it tells me it is referred to as Mackers in North America. First I've heard of it!
I cannot remember now why he brought it up. Something about flinging lines from Mackers at Tony Blair, if I recall.
"Out damn spot" "Be damned to him who cries..." Enlightenment required.
Complain about this comment
To#238 watermanaquarius
Forgive me!
I have been guilty of using the upper case for the first letter of your name. I do that for everyone as a matter of respect but in future I will remember to use lower case.
I really do enjoy your posts and would never confuse you with the other "W."
Complain about this comment
aquarizonagal
"Is it compassionate or even ethical for families to pay for life saving medical care by losing everything they own?"
I am in agreement with you and my short answer is "No."
"Let me just say that I do not consider the terms 'liberal' or 'conservative' to be disparaging in any way."
Neither do I as those are the names of the two main political parties in Canada. I, being a Liberal.
Complain about this comment
As it happens, I am quite intolerant of Horses**t
Complain about this comment
To#244Chronophobe
Thank you for the link.
It is a lot to process and consider but what President Obama may ultimately do is anyone's guess.
My response is "Survive together or die alone."
The world is not so very large. I believe that we are all part of an interconnected web of existence which means we must work together for the prosperity of all.
Complain about this comment
To#254Timewaitsfornoman
Words are so powerful but sometimes the emotional meaning we give them is counter-productive.
Thank you for your words.
Complain about this comment
re: 246
Ah, it were the quoted text. Three sentences, for all love, properly acknowledged and the source linked to. Oh well.
re: 250 noman,
Not so much Obama as Congress, responding to powerful lobbies (as in the case with steel, non-exporters). Has implications for Canada, as a big portion of our steel (90% or so ?) exports go to the US.
Things like this can get out of hand, as tit for tat restrictions could devolve into full on protectionism.
And "out do" wma? Fie, never in life. I merely aspire to live up to his eloquent example (and have a ways to go, as the errant "a" between "of" and "Voltaire's" in my post would demonstrate).
Yours,
Pinko
Complain about this comment
Re #241,
Rob,
You could go to Vegas, prices are low right now. However, there is one drawback. You may run into Marcus.
If while playing Blackjack you end up sitting next to a slightly smelly, wild eyed looking fellow who seems to have been drinking since slightly too early in the day who goes on and on about how nasty Europeans are, move on to a higher stakes table.
Then again, you are probably safe as I suspect Marcus is more of an Atlantic city type of guy. Especially if you stay at the Wynn or Encore, they don't certain types in there.
Gambler Sam
Complain about this comment
#228
Rob,
I would be careful thinking of me asomeone who will meet anyone halfway. I hold views based on a fairly hard core libertarian set of beliefs because I believe those to be in my own self interest.
I am not in favor of big or small government, rather an efficient government that provides demerit goods to the nation at the lowest possible cost in terms of GDP (i.e. Health, Education, Welfare, Defence, Infrastructure, Diplomacy)
On economics I generally support policies which promote globalization and trade, and which seek to provide sufficent education and security such that each and every memeber of society can achieve their potential. I also believe in balanced budgets and that means higher taxes for the most priviledged in our society.In America's polarized political environment that is a mixture of conservative and liberal policies.
On social issues I simply believe in 'Legalize it, tax it'. So long as it is between consenting adults and does no other any direct harm, let them get on with it. One of the most alarming things about 'conservatives' in the US is that they want to push their own beliefs of what is moral and deviant onto others, through legislation where necessary. Not only does this harm our economic potential by lessening the ability of part of our population to contribute (for example by refusing gay couples the same rights as straight ones) it also annoys me personally. If I want to put on a little black dress and high heels on a Friday night then where's the harm in that (so long as I promise to wax my legs first).
So I would not mistake my views as being flexible. I believe that it is terrible for our country that we are effectively becoming a one party state. But as long as the Republicans are the party of a small minority who would seek to dominate others, and that they allow this to cloud every pother policy discussion, then I do not believe that there can be much compromise.
Selfish Sam
Complain about this comment
#255
That said Ed,
I believe Top gear proved you can run a car on it. Maybe that was cows.
Organic Sam
Complain about this comment
#252
Time,
Rather a splendidly complex message in a short quote, don't you think?
Bard Sam
Complain about this comment
To#235Vovofrominsk
I am so happy that you have hope. We all need that!
You are so correct that we cannot just spend money without making rules that stop this from happening again.
Thank you for posting and is it all right for me to say:
Dasvidanya and also Via con Dios? I hope so.
Please post again
Complain about this comment
To Happylaze where ever you are:
Michael Phelps smokes the herb!
Whatever is the matter with this world?
I have had MY laugh for this day. Hope you enjoy this also but why did he apologize?
Cheers!
Complain about this comment
238 watermanaquarius
Well, I'm glad I got something right in your eyes, even if it was only my selection of
"illustrious" individuals. From that it seems that I must have some reasonably good judgment. And thanks for your posting. It was quite 'picturesque' and gave a smile.
243 chronophobe
Give me a break! I have vivid recollection of many hostile comments, not only toward me, but between others, and that is my overall impression - save for yourself and a few others mentioned - but at the moment of writing aquarizonagal did not come to mind. Anyway, you can see what I've written below.
I guess if I thought about it long enough I would probably have to include ladycm.
251 aquarizonagal
Re your: "You also do not know me nor those life events that have shaped my heart and mind for eight decades", and of course the same rule applies to me - although I haven't been around 'quite' as long as you! Nice to see that you've got the spirit!
But thanks for your comments, not least that there be "amity and peace between us.' There will be - and a very decent sentiment from you.
I discovered many years ago when face to face with a politician whose ideas conflicted very considerably from my own, that as discussion progressed my view of him changed and I saw just another human being whose life experience differed very much from my own and had shaped his thinking. With that animosity initially felt evaporated.
Allmymarbles in a posting on another topic once commented that 'democracy' (among other ideologies) - and I think she included convervatism and liberalism - mean different things to different peoples, and in fact she was quite right. While essentially conservative in thinking, I am not entirely so and very, very, independent on a whole array of matters.
My bet is that regardless of how sharply we who post our views here differ, if we found ourselves in the same room most of us would get on very well.
Complain about this comment
Tea break!
To Samtyler1969
I see four postings listed from you. Why are you not watching the football this day?
There are all those pretty girls, plus the provocative beer ads. Perhaps you regret censorship of the ad promoting fornication with vegetables. I thought that ad quite humorous myself but children do watch and they must not be encouraged to play with their turnips!
Complain about this comment
To#260Samtyler1969
Excellent!! Would you be offended if I said I wish I could hug and kiss you?
Your response was so much what I would like to say but somehow my words are not so eloquent.
Sorry about the football comments in my previous posts. Sometimes I just need some humor.
Complain about this comment
My #264 has been censored.
I am so thrilled to be in the company of those who have been censored!
I may rewrite and try again or perhaps not.
Guess what horrible things I may have said! This could be a lot of fun!
Complain about this comment
chronophobe # 242,
Thank you. Not so sure on the Voltaire fellow, and being candid, a lot closer to a naive Hedley Lamarr I am afraid.
timewaitsfornoman # 247
I did not reply to your earlier post because despite your doubts, knowing it or not, your quotation was "spot" on.
Being a two-fingered keyboard operator, my postings are taking longer today than normal because of the power falling out, a couple of 7 times here already, and I keep forgetting to save. That and checking I do not step over the mark and get quarantined, I am now completely mackered .
aquarizonagal # 253, timewaits
Seriously I have no problems with a capital or not. It was just a throwaway remark to robloop having seen postings to Ed Iglehart / Angelhart / Iglooheart, etc. where I remembered I made the same unfortunate mistake to Ed in the past. With good grace and humour I believe he sent me a small reprimand from his favourite rabbi Burns, [not I hasten to add- To a Louse] but you will receive no ploughman's poetry from me, unless I get a brainwave during shock therapy tonight.
Complain about this comment
Addendum To #210 and #233 Rsnail
Please forgive me! My brain is slowing down as I age.
I did not realize until I reread your posts how literally you read my post #206. Also, English is not my first language. I do not always express myself as well as I would like.
I sometimes like to be humorous and serious at the same time because it both amuses me and gives me expression for my thoughts which are often very sad.
I am sorry if you misunderstood what I said.
Complain about this comment
To#265Robloop
I think that you have nailed it!
So much of what we think may divide us is not real. When we have open ears, minds and hearts to one another we may find our needs, goals and dreams are not so different after all.
Peace be with you all through this night.
Complain about this comment
#266
Aqua,
It hasn't started yet! Since the PETA commercial was banned I only have Go Daddy to look forwards to.
To be honest I may skip it. I have to spend half the week in Pittsburg so if the Steelers win I'll never hear the end of it.
Roll on spring training, that will be worth a trip to Tampa to see the Phillies.
Fan Sam
Complain about this comment
To #269 watermanaquarious
Thank you so very much!
I was raised to be polite and courtesy seems to somewhat lacking in the world these days. I will cling to my very old fashioned ways. It is a matter of respect.
Complain about this comment
I hope that the tea break includes some excellent snacks or some very good gin!
Complain about this comment
SamTyler1969 # 259, 260
May I say you wax up perfectly, eloquently.and lyrically.
The Karate Kid can not hold a candle to your blogging.
I am but a half-wick in the presence of a master but
inflexible, selfish, hard core or not, your words light a
flame in my heart.
I know I am being a bit forward and it's early days.
But I hope that if your legs are as good as
I imagine, and you promise to wear the black dress and
the red shoes with the very high heels, is there any chance
you would consider becoming my Valentine?
Complain about this comment
Interesting, all this conservative vs. liberal labeling. When pressed to label myself, I say I am a proud socialist libertarian; on some days I might be a libertarian socialist. Think maybe it's an oxymoron? Not so. Health care for all; welfare for those who need it; no sin laws; adults should decide for themselves whether to fasten a seat belt (I always fasten mine); legalize and tax anything that involves personal choice; jail the banksters; fix the potholes; teach teenagers how to put condoms on cucumbers. Etc.
Complain about this comment
To#272Samtyler1969
Those vegetables have a lot to explain and you are not really missing very much.
Keep safe!
Complain about this comment
269 watermanaquarius
"your quotation was "spot" on"
It was!!? Even with that Mackers thrown in to confuse me?
aquarizonagal
May I ask, what is your first language? Unless you say French do not expect me to write anything in it. Other than hello, goodbye, thank you, etc. Or was dasvidanya a hint?
You amuse me with your reaction to being censored!
Complain about this comment
I think that there has been some discussion this day that could bring more people to understanding or at least tolerating the thoughts and opinions of other posters.
We ARE all participants in this sorry, sad and humorous condition that we call life. I am finished here for this night.
I wish peace to all and to all a good evening.
Dasvidanya!
Complain about this comment
re: 269 wma
Egads, man not Hedley Lamarr?
Any excuse for a bit of Blazing Saddles is good enough for me!
Cheers,
Pinko
Complain about this comment
So what about them cardinals!
Wooooooooo. This is turning into a good finish.
Fan Sam
Complain about this comment
And a Go Daddy Ad.
Oh yeah. Now we're talking.
Fan Sam
Complain about this comment
That's it. A tough week for Sammy in Pittsburg.
Darn it.
Sad Sam
Complain about this comment
266, aquarizonagal/276 bere54
What is this obsession with condoms and cucumbers?
Or should I not ask?
Complain about this comment
british-ish...
180. At 07:47am on 31 Jan 2009, rodidog:
"Maybe on Tuesday's they can watch a film on how to put a condom on a cucumber".
This is where it really started and it just continued from there. There is nothing like a little vegetable/ condom talk.
Complain about this comment
283. At 03:02am on 02 Feb 2009, SamTyler1969 wrote:
"That's it. A tough week for Sammy in Pittsburg.
Darn it.
Sad Sam"
S**tsburg. They beat my beloved Seahawks in 06. Let's not talk about how they played this year. Have a hot dog in Pittsburg maybe that will make you feel better. But, you'll still be in Pittsburg :/
Complain about this comment
285.ladycm wrote:
british-ish...
180. At 07:47am on 31 Jan 2009, rodidog:
"Maybe on Tuesday's they can watch a film . . ."
Oh, I see. These right-wingers have funny ideas about entertainment I've always thought. And very exaggerated notions about some things . . .
I suppose that accounts for the high rate of teenage pregnancy they all go on about.
Anyway, it wasn't 300 million for sex education, it was for STD prevention wasn't it? I think it was me mentioned that, but I've forgotten.
But American farmers are always after government subsidies of one sort or another, as I understand it, so I suppose lots of cucumbers will be bought out of the stimulus package when the Senate adds to it. . .
Complain about this comment
249. aqua
You asked: Is it compassionate or even ethical for families to pay for life saving medical care by losing everything they own?
The short and easy answer to you question is No.
Note: As this refers to my view on mortgages, I believe that the number of mortgage foreclosures caused by medical bills presents a very small fraction of a percentage. The vast majority are due to negligence on the part of the home buyers.
You answered my question, and I'd like to elaborate on your healthcare question.
There are many hard questions that emerge from recognition of the fact that necessary heathcare should be universally available.
1. How do you define necessary healthcare?
(Does it cover Cosmetic surgery? Mental health care? Reproductive healthcare such as in vitro fertilization? Abortion? As well as a myriad of other subcatagories and elective procedures.)
Free preventive medicine and emergency care should be the norm. Unfortunately some idiot with a government job and an axe to grind will label contraception for preteens and sex change operations as necessary preventive medicine.
2. How do we solve the problem?
I believe our government totally fails us regarding healthcare. A holistic approach needs to be made rather than merely throwing tax dollars at HMO's. (That also means parents who take kids with a runny nose to the hospital emergency room should be fined/punished.)
Our government should flood the market with healthcare professionals by establishing free medical schools for any citizen who can pass the entrance exams to make more doctors, nurses et al.
Set up preventive medicine clinics, perhaps wherever people renew vehicle registration and drivers licenses and make preventive checkups and inoculations mandatory before granting driving priviledges.
Tort reform is desperately needed to stop trivial malpractice lawsuits.
The list is huge. If I had all the answers, I wouldn't be blogging.
Complain about this comment
Ish,
Unlike British farmers.....From the horse's mouthOur esteemed govmint are proud that Britain is 58% self-sufficient
As our currency buys less and less, this becomes more and more of a problem.....
Bon appetit
ed
Some hae meat and canna eat,
And some wad eat that want it;
But we hae meat, and we can eat,
And sae the Lord be thankit
Complain about this comment
It seems the moderators are snowbound by 2cm of the white stuff!
;-)
ed
Complain about this comment
#286
Lady,
I think I'll have to go to Fat Heads.
Fat Sam
Complain about this comment
237. At 3:13pm on 01 Feb 2009, robloop wrote:
226 Simon21
Just more of the same old simple-minded accusations, Simon. It?s pitiful! Without any sound basis you?ve made your "bigotry" and "racism" jibes"
Because you are a bigot and make rascist statements?
And have expressed a desire to hit a woman in the mouth?
Do you not read your own posts?
" but now it's Jews that you've wildly thrown into the mix, the very people you've made clear through comments about Israel, that you hate. That one really put you in true perspective."
Yes I do not know what your feel about jews, but I think I can guess.
And Israel is a country incidently, not a religion. Many of its people are not jews, like most of the RSA was not white.
Remember? The colour of your servants?
"What you?ve given me again here are the usual barely coherent rants. One looks at the screen and thinks, what on earth is this scramble brain trying to express? And then to add to the pleasure, in your frenzied effort to add insult upon insult you become positively unintelligible. Really no self-contol or composure. "
This from a man who wanted to hit a 60 year old woman in the mouth.
Is that composure? Its the sort that will get you arrested I have to tell you.
And by the way, you again didn't explain how me questioning ACORN's integrity equated to "bigotry". Please do try."
Simple you produced not one shred of evidence for your claims, but spewed out vitriol.
This linked with your hatred of any black spokesperson makes your bigotry fairly clear.
"Simon, the reality is that ?grass? really does make a mess of the mind, bi-polar mania, schizophrenia, hallucinations, depression, and so on, and in your case it shows. "
Hmmm but I don't openly express a desire to beat women and a loathing for black people do I?
Where does that come from, a bad childhood? Did your parents neglect you or show you too much of a particular type of care?
You really must learn to cope.
Complain about this comment
Slow one.
I would define giving a 6 time mother fertility drugs to give it another go to be a medical necessity.
Something UNLIKELY to happen in the NHS.
Now I would say given the obvious mental situation of the mother that any doctor that prescribed her these drugs should be sued.
It was malpractice. BAD practice.
You make some good points for once.
Complain about this comment
Chrono
Steel for federal projects has had to be US made for years.
Supposedly.
In reality America did not produce enough so when welding up big projects with US steel required Made in Canada was often in the beam.
But americas will always complain about others being subsidised.
Complain about this comment
292
It is true, Simon ,that he , robloopy , has made one helluva lot of racist comments.
but to be fair he is one who tries to be better than his upbringing.
He has some way to go .He has a plank that makes it hard to see.
He has almost always derided the Black option , true.
But he has tried.
Admittedly only to say "see I'm no racist.But voting for a Blik when blik is racist"
Not ever considering that to not vote for the better candidate would be the Racist option.
But he does try.
Personally I've sort of given up on him. His arguments are too boring.
Complain about this comment
276
your meant to read the books not eat them.
Complain about this comment
re. 288. R-Snail:
I was checking in on this thread and saw your comments.
"I believe that the number of mortgage foreclosures caused by medical bills presents a very small fraction of a percentage"
In the US, medical bills are the single largest cause of bankruptcy. I don't know how that works with the mortgage foreclosure statistics, but it's a pretty alarming number all by itself.
In general I agree with your outline on what constitutes basic health care, with a couple of exceptions:
Mental health care and contraception: Why not include it? Mental health problems often feed into substance abuse problems and eventually into more traditional health issues and emergency room visits. It would be cheaper to treat the problems at their root. Ditto with contraception. If you would cover medical care for for pregnant women, why not cover care to reduce unwanted pregnancies? I know it's a hot button for the religious right, but the whole idea of universal health care is a hot button for the far right, religious or not.
Mandatory checkups for driver's licenses? Good luck. It's hard enough to institute driver's license medical checkups for the very elderly.
By the way, considering how dependent on autos we are in the US, there is going to be a huge problem when the Baby Boom gets too old to drive. I'm a boomer, and I can see it in my parents' generation now. They're very reluctant to give up their cars even if it isn't safe for them to drive, because it means losing independence and being shut in. Imagine things in 30 years. Perhaps we should be paying attention to mass transit now while there is enough time to get something worked out. Either that or my son's generation is going to spend a lot of time ferrying their parents to doctor's appointments and the grocery store.
Tort reform. I wonder what percentage of medical malpractice lawsuits actually are frivolous or result in ridiculous settlements. Those are the ones that make the news, but does anyone really know what effect they have on the court system or insurance premiums for doctors? I would trust neither the insurance companies nor the doctors on that topic.
Complain about this comment
297 timohio
Slightly off the topic, but still relevant to your comment about illness and mortgage foreclosures.
It's a pity that in the U.S. a really good
'Critical Illness Insurance' policy, is not available. It pays out a lump sum, tax free benefit and can save individuals or families their homes - and businesses.
Yes, they are available in the U.S., but nowhere as good as those in the U.K., South Africa, etc - Canada in particular.
The concept is that of South African transplant surgeon, Marius Barnard.
Even in Canada with its provincial healthcare system, individuals loose their homes and businesses when a critical illness hits. I know that more than 48% (but possibly as high as 62%) of mortgage foreclosures there occur there because of a critical illness - cancer, heart attack, stroke, kidney failure, etc.
Sure, medical costs in the U.K. and Canada are a fraction of those in the U.S., but when you get sick their health plans don't replace lost income, often enough don't pay for drugs (or dental costs), and in the case of cancer often pay less than half of treatment costs.
They sure don't replace lost income, usually don't pay for drugs (chronophone can confirm that), and in the case of cancer generally don't cover even 40% percent of treatment costs.
My point is that while the U.S. is bad in respect of medical costs and losing homes, it is not alone. Some things we have to look after ourselves, wherever we are. Putting away for a rainy day and not over-reaching ourselves financially are two of them.
Complain about this comment
292 Simon21
Well, Simon, you sure took a long time working out, or was it 'conjuring up', how you would respond to my posting 237! Almost a full day! Wow! Among other things I guess you had to work hard at how to handle the legitimate accusation that you hate Jews. Even then your attempt at an explanation doesn't nearly qualify. Pathetic - as usual!
Regardless, it's the same worn-out, weak-minded rubbish with wild accusations. In fact, the longer we go on the wilder your accusations. What will you dream up next?Slander is your speciality, but never mind, any port in a storm and evidently it's within House rules!
Your response about ACORN was utterly useless. How does it explain the 'bigotry' accusation? Let me know.
Your readings of my postings are worse than pitiful, demonstrated by your deliberate distortions, but then, what else should we expect? I guess if you keep repeating the same accusations over and over again someone might believe you. Any chance you've read about Joeseph Goebbels's propaganda methods?
Your response to my comment: "Simon, the reality is that 'grass' really does make a mess of the mind, bi-polar mania, schizophrenia, hallucinations, depression, and so on, and in your case it shows,"
was totally unconvincing. Admit it man, this is a serious problem for you! Some advice, if you lay off now you could actually save something up there.
The fact is, once again "What you've given me again here, are the usual barely coherent rants. One looks at the screen and thinks, what on earth is this scramble brain trying to express? And then to add to the pleasure, in your frenzied effort to add insult upon insult you become positively unintelligible. Really no self-control or composure."
Complain about this comment
284 british-ish
I have been told that the most effective way to demonstrate proper condom use is with the poor cucumber, though I would think finding cukes in appropriate sizes and shapes would be difficult. The right-wing rumor is that this instruction begins in kindergarten and their tax dollars are paying for it. Perhaps they prefer bananas. There has never been any proof that any school district has so instructed kindergarteners.
It's "Pittsburgh." Except in Vermont, where there's no "h."
288, R-Snail:
Universal health care should definitely not pay for in vitro fertilization for women to have octuplets when they already have 6 children. Your idea for free medical school for qualified persons is excellent and would solve a great deal of the financial issues with health care. I've thought that for a long time. But why on earth would you object to mental health being covered? Don't you think you would feel safer if people like MAII would stay on their meds?
Complain about this comment
37 MAII -"The United States will never ..."
Do you really need to tempt fate?
41. Guns: Sounds about right.
44 - 45 - Agree with Sam's explanation.
55. Agree with Ed - which is why the kind of stimulus noted below might not be a bad idea.
59. No asset as good as houses ... Not sure that's true. Stock market index over 100 years has significantly outperformed housing - saw a chart proving it just the other day from my altruistic stockbroker ...
61. Timewaits - Yes, exactly, and when those countries dump those bonds, watch out. MAII may get his wish.
79. Smiley: Yes, right now government is the only body that isn't running for cover as fast as it can. But government spending is a drop in the bucket compared to what is needed. They need to infuse consumers with confidence. Sadly, lower interest rates can no longer do that, because people aren't worried about the cost of interest, they are worried about not having a job at all. The only things that will solve that are more full time, steady work, and smaller liabilities as a proportion of family income.
120. Sam to Marbles. Same thing. If you employ people, right now you lie awake at night trying to figure out where the business is going to come from to pay their salaries and cover overhead. You don't worry about yourself so much, because you figure that you can always eat soup and spaghetti until things get better, but you worry a lot about people who depend on you.
142. Pinko: Real interest rates are actually very, very high right now. A nominal 1% interest rate with 20 % deflation amounts to a 21% real interest rate. No wonder the economy is gasping. It's being asphyxiated.
185. Surprised ? No, not surprised at all.
But if this begins to turn around, then all the liquidity that is being pumped into the system is going to have to be pumped out again, and that isn't an easy task, either. Paul Volcker did it last time.
We are going through a gut-wrenching bout of deflation in many sectors of the economy. Not 1 % or 2 %, but 20 %, 30 % or 40% in the space of a year. Over the weekend I read that discretionary spending had decreased 22 % year over year. How big is that? Well, it amounts to about $ 2 Trn being sucked out of the North American economy, more or less overnight. By that standard, the "stimulus package" is pretty modest.
The power of governments is puny when compared to the power of fear and panic when they take hold of the mindset of consumers.
Which, by the way, is why the Smoots and Hawleys in the present Congress need to keep their traps firmly shut. They propose a big stimulus package - $ 800+ B, and then do $ 900 B damage by inserting a "Buy America" provision, which scares the bejeeezes ought of all the trading partners, so markets in Asia open sharply lower in the next trading session.
Will these protectionist buffoons never learn? Do they really want all of these foreign investors, and their governments, to dump the US $ denominated assets they are holding? Is starting a trade war going to do anything other than make the present problems worse? Forgive them father, they know not what they do.
As for the stimulus package, payments to individuals tend to be very inefficient, and, once spent, don't leave any lasting assets. Wouldn't it be more effective to sell the public infrastructure bonds (i.e., "War Bonds" by a different name) with a long repayment period, and then use the money to improve bridges and tunnels, and other decaying infrastructure?
Why not use the money to set up a proper, practical intercity train system like they have in western Europe, which would create very significant employment and be beneficial for the environment? Don't worry about 300 mph magnetic levitation trains. Try to aim for reliable service between major centers at 100 mph.
Do it by helping the owners of the rights-of-way to expand capacity, so that passenger service can be accommodated without inconveniencing the highly profitable freight business. Why not guarantee the credit of the freight railroads to permit them to issue long term bonds to increase siding lengths, to increase the amount of triple and quadruple track, and to electrify the main lines along the eastern seaboard and west to Chicago, Minneapolis, St. Louis, Memphis, New Orleans and Council Bluffs? California may also have the traffic density to justify electrification, as may the UP and BNSF transcontinental lines.
The cost of doing this, and the barriers of being the only operator to change over are huge, but if the major roads could be convinced to do it all together, the benefits to both the environment and the economy would be staggeringly large.
They solved a half century old bottleneck at the port of Long Beach - Los Angeles, why not solve an even worse railroad bottleneck at Chicago? It's a problem crying out for a solution, and one that would yield long term (60 - 100 year) benefits at modest cost.
Now would be a really good time to do all of these things, when there is excess capacity in heavy industry waiting to be sopped up. If done prudently, it would yield a positive long term benefit to taxpayers-cum-bondholders.
Why not do the same thing for the creation of large scale windfarms and their associated collection and distribution grids? The price of oil won't be low forever - better to start fixing this problem now, when prices for raw material and labor inputs are comparatively low. Most of the jobs involved can't be shipped overseas, and they aren't McJobs either. They would, for the most part, be full time, heavy industrial jobs.
All of this would leave invaluable long term assets in place, and lay the groundwork for sustainable economic recovery. Oh, if only C.D. Howe were alive now.
Special note for Pervert Sam: According to a recent BBC News article, apparently the sales of Trojan have risen recently.
Complain about this comment
295 happylaze
Thank you for your oh so generous effort to see me a slightly better light. What a pity you really still don't get it. And what a pity you side with this infantile clot, simple Simon. I thought you were at least one rung up the ladder.
After your attempt at generosity, clumsy but an attempt, I'm almost sorry to say it, but the plank is in your own eye. You can't see that your reverse-racism and the accompanying pretences that things are not as they are, is a form of racism and a downright dishonest practise in which you apply different rules to different peoples and races. That much is evident time and again in your comments.
What you interpret as a racist statement, not least "one helluva lot of racist statements" - which is a blantant lie - is just the distorted perspective of someone whose view of society is now programmed by 'politically correct' thinking. This is now a mindset with accompanying practises, that embrace thorough dishonesty by consciously
avoiding what is evident. As I said before, that is both dishonest and cowardly.
Mention race, which you are terrified to do for fear of being accused of 'racism', and you immediately jump to the conclusion that it is racist and the person who mentioned race is a 'racist'. The "plank" is in your eye.
Remove it and possibly you will see the light of day.
Complain about this comment
Foreigner,
And it promotes saving,a practice we could do with a bit more of. An ideal (if old-fashioned) gift for grandchildren and nieces/nephews....Nothing bad about 'old' ideasI prefer local 'infrastructure' (schools, hospitals, parks, cycleways, pooled internet capacity, etc.) to 'interstate or international boondoggles...
Right now, you can correlate perceived "standard of Living"
almost exactly to lifetime mileage. How daft is that? The more time and money (which you get by selling your time) you spend "in transit", the "better" your lifestyle? I think not!
Slow down and smell the flowers.
Complain about this comment
301, Interestedforeigner:
What refreshingly good sense. Is there some way you could be put in charge and get all that done? Especially the trains. A friend recently spent two months in Switzerland and had me writhing in envy over his narratives on Swiss trains. For those two months he had no car and never found it a problem.
Complain about this comment
re. 300. At 7:04pm on 02 Feb 2009, bere54 wrote:
"...though I would think finding cukes in appropriate sizes and shapes would be difficult."
No problem at all. There's pickling cukes, long narrow seedless varieties, etc. They even come in different colors. Students and teachers could pick out the one that best matches.
"The right-wing rumor is that this instruction begins in kindergarten and their tax dollars are paying for it. "
This came up during the campaign because Obama supposedly supported an Illinois bill that had to do with sex education for young children. It actually was a program for teaching young children how to recognize and deal with sexual predators, but the far right cheerfully misconstrued it and perpetuated the misconception. Is that rumor still going around under different auspices?
Complain about this comment
re. 304. bere54:
"A friend recently spent two months in Switzerland and had me writhing in envy over his narratives on Swiss trains. For those two months he had no car and never found it a problem."
A long time ago my family and I lived in Rome for 6 months without a car, and l rarely found it a problem. Only at the beginning when I had to haul all of our luggage across town from the main train station to our apartment on city buses. And at the end, doing it in reverse. Otherwise we shopped at local stores, walked to most things, and took buses or the subway to anything further away. And Italy doesn't compare to Switzerland in the reliability of its public transportation. Today in the US, even though I live in the central part of a medium sized city, there isn't much within walking distance and bus service isn't reliable. I have to drive out to the suburbs to do much of our weekly shopping. I hope that in retirement I can live more like I did in Italy.
Complain about this comment
305, timohio:
I am unfamiliar with pickling cukes. The cukes I'm used to are at least 8 to 10 inches long and rather wide in diameter, and I've never seen a . . . . well, never mind.
How come Europeans always knew trains were a good idea and we didn't? My son headed off to travel around Europe when he was 18, got himself one of those train passes and went everywhere. A few years ago a young exchange student from Germany whom I befriended wanted to travel around the U.S. by train and was flabbergasted at how difficult it was. She couldn't get to most of the places she wanted to see, and ended up having to take Greyhound a lot. I found this embarrassing, though I am not personally responsible for the situation.
Complain about this comment
To Timewaitsfornoman
It IS a hint but not nearly the whole story.
Complain about this comment
To#301 Interestedforeignor
Excellent post!
Complain about this comment
re. 307. bere54:
I've traveled around Europe using a rail pass, but last year when my son was in Europe, he found that it was cheaper and much quicker to fly on that budget airline based in Ireland that I probably can't name here. I hope that doesn't mean that Europeans are about to follow in our foolish footsteps and let their rail system decay.
We, of course, had a passenger rail network until air travel took off (so to speak) in the mid 1950s. In the post war period, rail service had to compete with federally-subsidized highways and airports, and there was even a wartime tax on train tickets that wasn't removed until 1962. So it shouldn't be a surprise that passenger rail gradually lost its competitiveness. It still amazes me that Republicans can demand that passenger rail pay for itself while the government subsidizes the auto industry with highway construction and maintenance and air travel with the FAA and the air traffic control system.
To be fair, passenger rail works best for the shorter distances that Europe has between cities. Remember that most of Western Europe could fit into the US east of the Mississippi. Rail is viable on the East and West coasts and even the midsection, but for much of the West it just can't compete with air travel. That's if it's expected to compete as a business. If it's a government-subsidized service for the population, that's another matter.
Complain about this comment
306 Timohio
As I currently live in Rome, I agree with you on the convenience of Italian city living. We can buy almost anything we need within a 5 minute walk of our door .... we have 3 daily farmers markets (or just "markets" as we call it) within 15 minutes of our door. Plus restaurants, cafes and really everything life needs.
Sometimes things cost a little more than the big superstores out of town, but then my time saved is worth more to me than a couple of cents on a litre of milk.
The big downfall ..... SPACE!
Most people I know live in around 100 sq metres (1000 sq feet) ... and yes that is a family of four.
Pros and cons on both sides, but as many Europeans have never known the space many Americans have, we do not miss it.
Complain about this comment
To#307 Bere54
I agree with you somewhat but consider how much actual ground we have to cover in comparison to Europe or the UK.
Many of our larger cities do have mass transit, Boston and New York for example. I so enjoyed using the subways and trains to explore them.
I cannot figure out how we could even begin to provide such service to where I live. Perhaps many would not want to visit here much less live in our challenging climate.
I think we cannot look to other places for solutions to our problems but must be creative in finding those that work best for all of us. I think it will be a combination of many good ideas that help our transit to improve.
Complain about this comment
310 timohio:
I do think rail service should be subsidized because it is just as much a public service as the highways are. The socialist part of my libertarian socialism believes this wholeheartedly.
As for it being viable on the East Coast - well, why don't they make it more efficient? For my son to travel from my house to NYC, it requires one hour and 15 minutes in a car, then seven hours (at least) on the train. To drive from my house to NYC takes six hours. Just recently the tracks were repaired; for years before that the train ride took almost 9 hours. Aren't trains supposed to be faster than cars?
Well, on another post we segued from brains to trains; now it's stimulus to trains. I love trains!
Complain about this comment
re: 301 Interestedforeigner Real interest rates are actually very, very high right now. A nominal 1% interest rate with 20 % deflation amounts to a 21% real interest rate.
20% deflation?
In our currency, sure. But the greenback is flying high, is it not?
I think one of Obama's big battles is going to be getting the Chinese to actually allow the yuan to rise relative to the dollar.
Yours,
Pinko
Complain about this comment
re. 311. RomeStu:
Yes, I remember the lack of space. My wife and I were in the equivalent of a motel room with a very active crawling baby. A motel room that was costing about twice what the mortgage was on our house in the US. When we described our house to Italians, they would refer to it as a "villa," which means something slightly different in Italian than it does in English. But we did look at our modest house in the US with different eyes when we returned.
As you say, pros and cons. But I do remember with fondness the neighborliness of the people with whom we came into contact in Rome, even though our Italian was rudimentary.
Complain about this comment
287. At 09:34am on 02 Feb 2009, british-ish wrote:
"Anyway, it wasn't 300 million for sex education, it was for STD prevention wasn't it? I think it was me mentioned that, but I've forgotten".
Yeah I think you're right. Oh well, I believe I have made a good point anyway. STD prevention would be fabulous. I bet no one has ever said STD and fabulous in the same sentence before. This would still save the U.S. money in the long run. Many folks with STDs and no insurance. Guess who's paying for those doctors visits/ tests?
Complain about this comment
314 Pinko. Yes, even in C$. There are sectors of our economy where the effective deflation appears to be 20 % or more. Think about the automotive sector. Every part supplier I know is in trouble. In the home furnishings business, they're all in trouble. We had another big flooring and carpet retailer go bankrupt over the weekend. The forest products companies have their backs to the wall. The guys who do advertising are starving. The layoffs in the financial services sector have been brutal, and they are just starting. I have never, ever, seen it like this. Yes, if the dollar were still at US $ 1.10 it would be worse, but it is awful nonetheless. Driving through downtown Hamilton is like driving through Detroit or Cleveland or Buffalo: boarded up houses and businesses everywhere.
Complain about this comment
303 Ed. I hear you. The thing is that while I really like working from home, the conveniences and services of a metropolis are pretty good, too. And if they are accessible by a 20 minute train ride (no parking, no traffic), even better.
I don't want boondoggles, either. That is why I roll my eyes everytime someone talks about high speed passenger rail. There are much more modest things we can do, at far more reasonable cost that will yield big benefits, simply by careful increases in existing capacity, and by thoughtful co-operation between the big freight roads and public authorities.
Most North Americans don't realize it, but we have the most efficient and most profitable railroads on earth. The last ten years have been the second golden age of railroading in North America.
Trains are vastly more efficient than other forms of land travel. e.g., for freight, typically 9 times as efficient as semi-trailers. That advantage should ultimately win the day.
There are two big challenges. The first is maximizing the ability of the freight roads to displace transport trucks. The second is to reinvent a rational passenger rail service. Both challenges depend on increasing capacity. Capacity tends to be increased by slow and steady increments. It is already happening in the passenger business: commuter rail service is the fastest growing sector of the railroad business. The major freight roads have also been investing heavily in capacity expansion.
Over short distances, the difference between a train that runs 60 mph, and one that runs 150 mph is almost irrelevant. But one that runs reliably, with good frequency of service at 60 mph, is vastly superior to one that runs 150 mph, but only if the doors don't freeze, the switches don't freeze, the tracks don't buckle in the heat, if the train doesn't get stuck in a siding waiting for a freight train to clear, the fancy turbine engines don't break down (anyone else remmeber the 'turbo-train'?) the brakes don't overheat (Acela perhaps?) and the crews don't go on strike. Mundane stuff, and yet it is the difference between a service that works, and one that drives the public away in droves.
As for intercity train travel, again, it is important to start with modest and reasonably attainable goals. Arizona Gal makes a really good point: Passenger trains don't make sense if you don't have the density.
The same is also true of freight trains, but there it is not density but tonnage and distance. Unlike passenger service, for freight the longer the distance, the bigger the advantage of rail haulage. There is no other form of land tranport that can compete with rail for transporting really heavy things (ores, coal, grain, potash) over long distances.
Relatively short distance intercity service, e.g., less than 6 hours total travel time, also presents a large opportunity to increase energy efficiency and to remove greenhouse gas distribution in the upper atmosphere. On short distances trains should be cometitive with aircraft: no two hour wait at the airport, direct service to the city center, much more comfortable than planes or buses. Why is the busiest air corridor in America between Boston and New York? Why don't trains utterly dominate that run?
Complain about this comment
Foreigner,
I agree, though I rarely go further than Kirkcudbright these days (~15 miles)....We should be thinking along the lines dear to JH Kunstler, and designing our towns so that commuting distances are minimised (walk, cycle). There's plenty of good thinking (and some action) out there, for example.
We have been seduced by cheap (and apparently unlimited) fuel into disregarding distance (which can be "conquered" by speed), and ignoring the many destructive downsides of that conquest,
Here's to a slower life
ed
Complain about this comment
To wit: a meditation
Amen!
Complain about this comment
amusing the trains always known by euro's bere.
The brits went ahead and built a rail network at the expense of building a double width (wide) canal system that is common throughout Continental Europe (and I believe Ireland though not sure there).
Shame because that is the cheapest way to move stuff. on water.
Brits (Irish really) built the railroads in the UK.
The French got canals.
Then they built their railroads.Newer than the brits, but they still had the canals.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
To#318 Interestedforeignor
Another excellent post!
While we live in a minimally populated rural area of our state, sometimes travel to Phoenix is necessary for us. (shudder!)
It has been proposed that passenger trains be placed in service between Tucson and Phoenix so that people need not drive on a clogged freeway that connects the two cities, thus reducing gas consumption and highway congestion.
This idea has been met with no end of obstruction, mostly by land developers who wish to build and sell ever more houses on this already overpopulated corridor in a very fragile ecosystem.
I would welcome such train service because we would only have to drive as far as Tucson, take a train to Phoenix, ride their new Light Rail or take a taxi to where we needed to go.
Even those who live in areas not connected by mass transit could reduce stress and travel time by making use of a service such as a train between two larger cities.
Complain about this comment
Happy, I think you'll find the navvies worked rather hard on a canal system in Britain.
Complain about this comment
To#319 Edinglehart
Our two hearts beat as one regarding the writing of Ed Abbey's Desert Solitaire but I would so wish that I only had to travel 15 miles from my home for those things we need but cannot produce for ourselves.
You are so fortunate in this respect. Our nearest neighbor is well over a mile away and that is "as the crow flies" or as this old woman can walk across the desert. It is farther by road.
We love this land and would not give it up for what might be move convenient for travel but the day may come when we must do so.
Peace be with you and may you live on and love your land forever,
Amen!
Complain about this comment
324
I agree and included them..(Irish really)
Complain about this comment
re. 323. aquarizonagal:
"This idea has been met with no end of obstruction, mostly by land developers who wish to build and sell ever more houses on this already overpopulated corridor in a very fragile ecosystem."
Where I live there has been running opposition by developers for at least 30 years for expansion of our park system. As parcels come available, developers grumble that we already have enough parks. Fortunately, when it comes up for a vote by residents, the parks always win, even if it means a tax increase to pay for the land.
As a result, even though the urban area keeps expanding there are a lot of parks (some of them quite large and wooded). I live in the middle of the city about a block from a 300 acre wooded park and public golf course that was set aside shortly after 1900. Housing wasn't built in the area for another 20 years.
Developers never seem to think about the quality of life in the subdivisions they build, only how much profit they can make from them. It really is up to the voters through their local governments to set limits.
Complain about this comment
To#327Timohio
It is a battle in my state, as well, to save parks and public lands. We have done much better with this then with funding public transportation.
Developers only want profit. I consider most of them to be a pox on the body of our people. We are mostly a Republican run state and profit rules. Many people here do not want to spend for public transport. It will be a long and difficult battle.
Complain about this comment
To Happylaze
Check my #264. You might get a laugh.
It was censored yesterday but I see it has been posted today.
Complain about this comment
re. 328. aquarizonagal:
At some point when Arizona drivers are sitting in a massive traffic jam they might want to consider how much more pleasant a park-and-ride light rail system would be. But that mentality isn't limited to Republican states. There is a lot of commuter traffic between northwest Ohio and Detroit, but no commuter rail. 75 years ago there was, but it was demolished after automobiles became common. Is this progress?
Complain about this comment
To#330 Timohio
Progress it is not!
Traffic has already become almost a parking lot on I-10 at certain hours. I know it is selfish but I am grateful that we rarely have to drive this route.
The rail tracks are already in place between Tucson and Phoenix but a switching yard is required about halfway between the two cities and this is where the problem is with developers who want this land for houses.
I do not understand all the arguments nor can I really offer solutions. It would just be so nice for many of us in rural areas if we could ride a train from Tucson to Phoenix. It is, as I wrote, a selfish wish.
Complain about this comment
The best part of the good old torygraph Matt is always topical, and funny with it.
Complain about this comment
Perhaps it's because of the bitter cold, deep snow, and ice for almost six months of the year, but despite our lack of public transportation, we don't have much in the way of traffic here in Vermont. When my daughter got her learner's permit I had to take her out of state so she could learn how to drive in actual traffic.
In Vermont, "sprawl" is a very dirty word.
Complain about this comment
bere54, so you don't get hordes of canadians coming south for a milder winter?
Complain about this comment
334 seanspa
Only when driving through or flying over! It would be about the same as going to Idaho. But hordes of Canadians do go to Burlington Vermont or Plattsburgh NY when the dollar is high. Although not now as no one is shopping for anything anywhere. bere54 could probably tell you a lot more about it, but those towns must really be suffering from the lack of Canadian shoppers. They are only an hour away from Montreal.
Complain about this comment
re. 333. bere54:
Yes, but you do have hills, for which we have to drive far if we want to teach our children how to drive in them. We tend to think of freeway overpasses as abrupt changes in elevation here.
Complain about this comment
#333
Sprawl isn't a dirty word, Bere.
Crevice is a dirty word, but sprawl isn't. Sprawled is a positively filthy word, though.
Sir Cecil Hogmany Sam
Complain about this comment
319, 320 Ed., and Arizona Gal & Tim.
It's time to wrap this one up with some comments on Switzerland. The Swiss, and Austrians, are remarkably productive in an economic sense, and yet they don't seem to be in such a hurry. To my mind, the pace and quality of life is very high. Acre for acre, Schweiz is the most heavily industrialized country in Europe (or it was when I was younger) yet you would hardly know it. Cows with bells on every hillside.
On Swiss trains: what you need to realize is that the Swiss vote, by referendum, on the SBB subsidy, and every year it passes. They voted for, and built, a SFr 4 Bn, 25 mile base tunnel under the Gothard pass. They voted to ban trucks in the mountains. That's just how it is.
The thing is, Schweiz, with its marvellous train system, has about 6m people, and would fit comfortably between Detroit and Montreal. But hold on a minute: Canada has about 12m people living in that space. It really is similar density, even before you add Albany, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, Erie, Cleveland, Akron, Toledo, Detroit, ... and onward to Chicago. Yes we can.
Finally, I wanted to post a comment last night on mainline electrification. The class I railroads are unlikely to do this spontaneously, yet if encouraged, it would yield enormous benefits. The governments of Canada and the US could really give a timely demonstration of neighbourly co-operation, and we would all benefit. The St. Lawrence Seaway of our times? The chances of it happening are slim to none, though, because the people in public office have no idea that the opportunity even exists. Hunter Harrison as Minister of Transport or Sec. of Commerce (runs CN, but is a US citizen)? Sadly, not likely.
Complain about this comment
334, seanspa
Not that many Canadians seen in these parts anymore. Is Homeland Security keeping them out? I hear they all fly to Cuba for the winter. Wish I could.
Complain about this comment
Foreigner,
Cows with Bells?;-)
ed
Complain about this comment
Lol Aqua
"why did he apologise?"
Good question.
If I were Him I would have said.
"OK I'm retiring. I will not compete for a country that will not recognise that I am still me just because I had a nice enjoyable puff.I have given my time and best for this country and you want to prosecute me for being honest.
Fine. Go find your next bag of golds elsewhere.
I'm going to get a job that requires no p tests."
And quietly left the stage.
PS did you know that Rick Steves the travel journalist is a spokesman for Norml.
National org for reform of marijane laws.
More on topic is Imagine the extra stimulus of legalising it NOW.
http://blog.thehill.com/2009/02/03/why-condemn-phelps-when-we-ought-to-condemn-the-laws-that-brand-him-a-criminal/
Abraham Lincoln: “Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man’s appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded.”
It might also get a few thinking out of their boxes
Complain about this comment
I wouldn't normally like to see government involved in private pay (the shareholders should be doing that), but with tax-payer money being involved, this is much needed.
The only item I would take issue on is
"The expansion to 20, from five, the number of executives who would face reduced bonuses and incentives if they are found to have knowingly provided inaccurate information related to company financial statements or performance measurements."
Sorry, shouldn't that read "Jail time" ?
Complain about this comment
340 Ed. Very funny.
Yes, cows with bells.
The sound of the cowbells, in some alpine meadow up high in the mountains is so Swiss, and so sublimely beautiful. We were hiking on the Rigi one time for several hours in the fog and mist. We couldn't see the cows, but could hear the bells the whole time. Just magic.
The Canadian equivalent might be the crunching and squeaking sound that clean snow makes on a windless, cloudless night near the full moon in January, when it is really cold, i.e., -25 C or colder. That is a special sound, too.
Complain about this comment
Justin Webb:
I think that the stimulus talk was an important subject that needed to be dealt with, in the United States during this economic downturn...
~Dennis Junior~
Complain about this comment
View these comments in RSS