Restless America
The point I think is that America's greatness - for want of a less emotionally-charged word (its salience perhaps, or its significance) - is lodged in the vibrancy of the place.
And this piece - just read the first three paragraphs - makes the case wonderfully well. To run a political party in the US is to be engaged in a constant effort just to keep up.
To run a competing nation you have to make the same effort. Certainly, lots of nations change, but often slowly and resentfully and fitfully: America alone embraces change in its fundamental makeup.
(China embraced change, yes, but imposed it from the top). Of course, to many Americans this is not really a plus. They would like a rest from this restlessness. But a rest is nowhere to be seen.
Hello, I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~01~RS~)
Comments
Sign in or register to comment.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Two or three responses come to mind:
1. Demographics have always shifted here, and you correctly tie together that phenomenon with the dynamism of the United States, both past and present.
2. Great ideas, such as are expressed in the Constitution, are not the property of any demographic group. Once understood and grasped, they have been embraced by successive groups and generations. That fact explains much of our success.
3. The abject and scandalous failure of the Republican party leadership to adhere to those great ideas, to live by them, and to promote them, has led to its decline. Too many in the leadership (because the rank-and-file allowed it) decided that their guiding idea should be the aggregation of wealth and power, and ideas take the hindmost. A true threshold was crossed when Pat Buchanan walked out the door in (ironic coincidence) 1992.
The future will be shaped in great part by the emerging demographic groups' embrace of the great ideas for themselves, and if the Republican rank-and-file 'find their mojo', and replace the present leadership with people who have some other agenda than lining their own pockets.
For now, every appeal to give to the RNC and their RINO causes heads straight to the trash can in my house. Never again.
Complain about this comment
With your recent post about healthcare in mind, it does strike me that one reason for America's salience (I looked this word up and still don't quite know what it actually means) or 'it's ability to embrace change' is, perhaps, its single-minded determination to refrain from the European tradition of compassion. Isn't the young American faced with a stark choice: to either 'embrace change' or end up living in a caravan park?
Whilst the Chinese may live in fear of their government doesn't the American live in fear of failure?
In our rush to emulate the tough American 'go-getting' business model, we too have a rapidly growing American-style underclass.
The uncharted economic waters may make all of us take stock.
Complain about this comment
America embraces change all the while keeping sacred the olddest Constitution in use because America was founded on the enlightened premise that the Constitution was broad enough and idealistic enough to guide our imperfect nation through the great American experiment towards a more perfect union. Such progress has been called Manifest Destiny and The American Dream by generations of Americans. It is a long difficult process with many missteps and seemingly no end, but Americans, non-the-less, keep on believing in this national struggle that makes America so special.
Complain about this comment
Ignoring the needs, aspirations, and influence of minorities is no longer an option for anyone running for political office in the USA or for the business community.
Hispanics (excluding illegals) constitute 18% of our population, African-Americans 12%, and by the time we add Asians, Native Americans, and legal immigrants we are talking half the population of our country.
Their preferences are evident not only in the way they vote, but on the products they buy, unabashed displays of ethnic traditions, and other things that have not gone unnoticed to businessmen and politicians.
Considering the high fertility rates of minorities they will most likely become the majority within the next couple of decades and when that happens we will see not only a major cultural shift towards a more inclusive society, but dramatic increases in the number of minorities in Congress, in corporate boards, and noticeable changes in domestic and foreign policies.
Complain about this comment
sjymusic:
"... its single-minded determination to refrain from the European tradition of compassion..."
Really? I had not thought of European history as one long story of compassionate outreach. At the same time, I had not though of Americans are uiquely lacking in compassion.
I must tell the Americans I know who give of themselves every day to others - especially those who give to the sick and the elderly, the homeless and the poor. They must learn to stop being compassionate and harden their hearts and minds so as to live up to the stereotype of Americans as lacking in compassion.
Complain about this comment
Justin, it is true what you have said about how
the US embraces change. But, the demographic
changes afoot do not necessarily confer a permanent
advantage to the Democrats.
Just as the Republicans destroyed themselves
by not adhering to their centrist base that they
established in the 80's, so could the Democrats
destroy their own party by lack of fiscal
constraints and limitations on the power
of government.
It is my opinion that neither party really has
any concept as to where the center resides.
For example, Latinos tend to be more
conservative than the "old democrats" that
run the party. As Latinos become more
established in our society, they will inevitably
come into conflict with the liberal wing of
the Democratic party.
The crisis that we face in America is one
of unfundable entitlement programs. The
Democratic platform is full of unsustainable
promises that would cripple future generations.
So, yes, we have a lot going for us. But, we
have to grow up as a society, and realize that
every product and service has to be paid for,
and that wealth is not automatically created
by some politician wielding a pen.
I'm going to go out on a limb here. I believe that
Obama will get the economy back on track.
But, the nation will suffer a stinging wound
for about 25 years as a result of his policies.
That wound is debt. We need to become
great savers, not debtors.
Complain about this comment
5, Dominick.
"Considering the high fertility rates of minorities they will most likely become the majority within the next couple of decades...."
Then, too, these "minorities," liberally marry into the non-minority community, so the lines get blurred. Obama, for instance, is not black; he is mixed-race, like most American "blacks." He has empathy for both the black and white communities.
Maybe soon we will have to stop calling any group a minority. Intermarriage is nothing new in America. None of my brothers and sisters and none of our children have partners of the nationality of our forefather immigrants. The same is probably true for most of you. And now interracial marriage is so common that it doesn't raise an eyebrow.
So, Dominick, I don't think minorities will be in the majority, or the minority. Eventually they will become just plain Americans.
Complain about this comment
I think we Americans all have the genes of the pioneers who courageously pushed West and North, South and East whenever they had hopes and dreams of a better life. We have always known that we have choices and our curiosity provides the impetus to get us on our way. This trait is the most important factor that will give us the "oomph" to tackle the current daunting challenges in every facet of our society that we will meet with firm resolution. We are a vast nation and our greatest resource is our people who have the core survival skills to bob and weave ourselves into another fundamental form that insures a unique personal success for everyone. Americans have spirit and spunk and they will prevail.
Complain about this comment
always enjoyed your blogging on america, justin. but stay there. you don't know what you are talking about china:
(China embraced change, yes, but imposed it from the top).
embrace? impose? from the top? all three assertions wrong.
Complain about this comment
1. At 11:01pm on 09 Jan 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
What can I say? I am glad that non-college white are a shrinking group.
Hello, old friend.
I am also glad, but for their sake, not for yours. I, if you remember, embrace many of the 'non-college white' values. I am at heart a traditionalist, a conservative Bible thumping Christian. The 'non-college whites' I talk to have a very shrewd understanding of what has been done to them by greedy bankers, speculators, and their ilk. They aint dumb as you'd think. They stay in their way of life because they love it - they preserve their culture (as they imagine it) because it gives their life value.
Those who tire of this traditional posture get out and become the new generation of innovators, leaders, rational thinkers in our dynamic society, just as the 'just off the farm' have in every dynamic society in history. I have some of these in my own family. Together the old-fashioned and their offspring are primary forces in the strength of our experimental society. Immigrants are clearly another.
KScurmudgeon
Complain about this comment
7, guns.
If anything good can be said about a depression (I don't fall for that recession crap), it will return us to a more realistic understanding of money and personal fiscal responsibility.
I hope the days of the maxed-out credit cards are over, along with the anxiety they create. Have you noticed that there are no new ads about buying stuff you don't need "because you are worth it"? Well, if you don't have the cash on hand, you are not.
Complain about this comment
11, KS.
"The 'non-college whites' I talk to have a very shrewd understanding of what has been done to them by greedy bankers, speculators, and their ilk."
I have news for you - they did it to everybody. Ask anyone who has a 201K. And as for why I was glad there were fewer non-college whites voting, it was because I did not want McCain elected. We could not afford another Republican administration, an admiistration that favors the rich - not the non-college whites.
Complain about this comment
British-ish, what has your party been up to?
Complain about this comment
British-ish, what has your party been up to?
Complain about this comment
Back on the original subject - The Republicans are searching for this new equation right now. Their rep is so low, the momentum is so gone, the air is quite out of the balloon.
I, a life-time Republican, felt deeply betrayed by the actions of Cheney-Bush and the false posturing of John McCain, so much so that I voted for Obama. One of the signals that my party had no clue at all of my interests and condition was John McCain's 'Our economy is fundamentally sound.'
Another was the insistence that all Americans identified with the interests of those with incomes over $250,000 per year.
Another was when they rustled congress into giving the treasury $750,000,000 with no strings, no accountability, and no intention to help for us as workers, consumers, and taxpayers, and then sent as much of it as they could into unlighted vaults belonging to those same scoundrels who had just used the American wage earner as a class, as a patsy. And oh, but they expect us to pickup the tab.
Another was the way they abused Mrs. Palin, her potential folksyness, her ruralness, her sex and her values, as a lure to attract their base back into the fold, all the while showing clear ignorance of and contempt for those same values. Some conservative, values-based folks I know liked her grit, laughed at her antics, or were just relieved to see a reference to themselves in the media as part of the political discussion. But the great majority of the folks I know were appalled - by the way she was handled, and by the coarse disrespect of her handlers for her and for us.
Whatever their stated position might be on social issues, these people, the GOP leadership, are not our friends or our fellow-travellers.
They have been repudiated. They need to find out where the nation has gone, and find a way to get at the front of the race if they expect to be our leaders ever again.
KScurmudgeon
Complain about this comment
13. At 04:54am on 10 Jan 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
11, KS.
... And as for why I was glad there were fewer non-college whites voting, it was because I did not want McCain elected. We could not afford another Republican administration, an admiistration that favors the rich - not the non-college whites.
Fair enough. But many of them did vote, for the other guy.
KScurmudgeon
Complain about this comment
I will say one thing, though, in support of
Justin's previous blog post - as long as we
are building fences to keep people out instead
of keeping people in, we're probably on
the right track.
He is right about the restlessness of the place.
Robin Williams was on a talk show the other
night, and he was musing about what it must
be like living in Canada and being next door
to the US.
His answer: "It must be like living above
a biker bar."
You Brits live in the national equivalent of
a gated community. It must be nice....
Security guards make rounds, and packages
are collected at the office for you.
If it wasn't for those terrorist squirrels, you'd
have it made.
Complain about this comment
14. At 05:10am on 10 Jan 2009, seanspa wrote:
British-ish, what has your party been up to?
"Nothing to do with us, we don't do terrorism (though we are sometimes sorely tempted to hire a hitsquirrel for some bloggers around here. There are some pretty mean ones in the US, we've heard.).
It's them nasty grey ones from you-know-where what caused the bother. We wouldn't be seen dead in Kent.
(In a manner of speaking. We often wereseen dead in Kent, once.)"
Complain about this comment
16, KS.
The House passed the $750 billion bailout, but the Senate wouldn't - at least not until it was laced with $130 billion of pork. So the bailout cost was, not $750 billion, but $880 billion. I don't know which party's pork it was, but that may be why so many in Congress were unhappy with the deal and didn't talk much about it. Obama had no power at the time, and there was a need for haste; he has made it clear that there will be no pork in the new bailout. Let's hope he can keep the greedy pigs in check.
Complain about this comment
16, KS.
The problem with Palin, aside from lack of experience, was that she was aimed at one segment of the population - the white and uneducated. The Republicans alienated their own intellectual following and the Obama people feared the spectre of evangelicals legislating religious restrictions. I am an atheist. I don't care what people believe. That is their business. But when a religious group meddles in government to support their own faith, at the expense of my non-faith, they have an enemy. I was not alone.
Complain about this comment
18. gunsandreligion wrote:
"If it wasn't for those terrorist squirrels, you'd have it made."
Merely high-spirited mischievous immigrant youths (see 19) who'd probably been drinking a bit too much.
We will, however, be mounting a picket at Lydd airport just to make sure the CIA doesn't try to spirit our errant cousins away to one of those secret detention centres they no doubt still maintain.
Complain about this comment
#3. sjymusic: "one reason for America's salience (I looked this word up and still don't quite know what it actually means)"
Salience: the state of being salient - Salient: prominent or conspicuous.
I don't think we are any the wiser!
I cannot see, as Justin suggests, that America as a nation is particularly vibrant, it's too big for that, although of course there are vibrant communities within it. And every political party has to keep up - look at Labour in Britain, completely transformed and no longer the obvious representative of "the workers". Similarly, the Conservative Party under David Cameron - all parties undergo seismic shifts. OldSouth (#2) illustrates how the Republican Party has changed.
"Isn't the young American faced with a stark choice: to either 'embrace change' or end up living in a caravan park?"
Not at all - the American Dream encompasses home ownership and "change" isn't going to alter that. The present economic climate doesn't lend itself to new purchases but it will revert back to a semblance of what it was, and young people will continue to buy their own homes. For members of the US military there are still housing benefits which make it possible to buy with no money down and a mortgage guaranteed by the US Government. For civilians there are FHA loans, although both of these went out of fashion in the last 25 years or so, but almost bound to make a reappearance in hard times.
By "caravan park" I assume you mean what in America would be called a trailer park - and not all of them are so low-rent and trashy as may be reported. Take a look at these two in Malibu! Not bad for a "caravan park".
Complain about this comment
21, marbles
We are on that bicycle again, having to fatten the pie before they will buy it.
Really, all politics is pork, isn't it? Particularly in the guises of 'economic stimulus', 'social welfare', or 'investment'. To my eyes, war especially is entirely about pork. But in the case of war, when there is zero return on the investment except for the occasional toppled tyrant oh, and the pork, I call a foul.
re your # 21 -
You have your values, I have mine. That's no reason we shouldn't live together in the same world amicably. Most honest people's values are rather similar, actually. If we can only give as we would like to get - oops, getting religious on you. Sorry.
Complain about this comment
24, KS.
It is a question of respecting differences, and I am all for that. It would be boring if we were clones. My feathers only get ruffled when someone tries to force me to change into them. Viva separation of church and state!
Complain about this comment
19, ish-ish.
Where do black squirrels fit into all this?
Complain about this comment
25, marbles
Is it undemocratic to force someone to give up their prejudices?
KScurmudgeon
Complain about this comment
23, David.
"I cannot see, as Justin suggests, that America as a nation is particularly vibrant, it's too big for that, ..."
But don't you think that we are vibrant because we HAVE room? We are not all scrunched up as we would be in Europe. Just driving west for 15 minutes (from a very populous area) I am in the forest with deer and skunk and no houses or people, except for the rare small town that comes into view. It makes you feel expansive, unfettered - free.
Complain about this comment
27, KS.
Do you mean prejudices or preferences? The first sounds very antisocial. But even then, if the prejudices are not used to harm others or intrude on them, I guess it doesn't matter.
But we all have preferences. I like some countries, and don't like others. I prefer some foreign peoples to others. It probably has to do with empathy. I don't like the company of drunks. Would you call that prejudice?
Complain about this comment
27, KS.
"Is it undemocratic to force someone to give up their prejudices?"
My last response did not make sense. You cannot force someone to give up prejudices, whether it is undemocratic or not. People will always have prejudices. I should think it is the province of the government is to keep these prejudices from harming anyone.
Complain about this comment
Here's the deal, the biggest spender in the last 8 years has been republicans (by far). We have had a republican congress and president for the majority of the time, and look where we are at. Talk about debt, we are buried in it. I believe that at this point, the only institution that can get us out of this terrible mess is the government; yes the government. At least Barack Obama is planning on spending money as an investment in the workers of this country. G.B. Gave 700 billion to Wall Street (much of which is unaccounted for) and got us into a never ending war. Conservatives have not conserved at all in terms of the environment or in terms of our tax dollars. We spend more on health care than nations with a nationalized system and we have 48 million uninsured! Our government has been living out of its means. Americans are tired of the fundamentalist ideas of not protecting the environment, putting big business first and giving corporations big welfare checks. If the GOP doesn't get with the program, they will be extinct. As Americans become more educated, they put up with less crap. That is what is happening here, people are not voting just based on religion and fiscal conservatives are tired of being betrayed by their own party. Most of the GOP is a cancer on this country; with their insistent nagging and complaining about the change that happens in this country. Dems are perfect but, at least they know and realize the plight of many people in this country and don’t act like everything is okay the way it is.
Complain about this comment
12. At 04:46am on 10 Jan 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
7, guns.
"If anything good can be said about a depression (I don't fall for that recession crap)"
I heard on NPR a few weeks ago that a "recession" and "depression" are the same thing (which we all knew). They changed the term after the depression era because it sounded better. Here is an example of some not so crafty marketing. I don't feel any better in a "recession". So technically, you are right.
Complain about this comment
32, lady.
I think they are rewriting history by backdating word usage. A recession is a temporary downturn in the economic market. A depression is an economic disaster. We have not had an economic disaster since 1929.
Complain about this comment
The fact that more and more Americans are becoming more articulate by expressing their inner-most aspirations was the reason for Obama's victory. Americans long for meaningful change. They see in Obama as a key driver for opportunity and hope. No other previous President galvanized such deep feelings. Americans are truly extending their intellectual frontiers and broad vision!
Complain about this comment
Thanks Justin - interesting follow-up to your previous post of demographics.
Here's an idea .... what would the election have looked like if all Americans of voting age had been registered and cast their votes?
After all if (as it says in Justin's link) "And Hispanics are severely underrepresented (just 9 percent of voters compared with 15 percent of population)" a 100% voter regration and turnout could have created a genuine landslide for Obama.
How about the Australian system where I believe it is mandatory to vote, although they have a "none of the above" as well.
As the minority groups grow, the lower-birth-rate white American majority will slowly become a minority. This will require both political parties to adapt or perish .... or maybe the USA could get a new party. That's quite common in other countries.
Complain about this comment
to TimothyR444,
I wasn't thinking so much on an individual level, more in terms of methods of government. America, in the past, seems to have had an innate horror of socialism and interventionism which, let's face it, has been the standard model in Europe since the end of ww2. This is partly what I meant by the 'tradition of compassion'. Whereas America has stuck firmly to the principal of small government and the responsibility of the individual, Europe - either from bitter experience or from laziness depending on your point of view (probably a mix of both) - has handed over a great deal of personal responsibility to their governments. Mrs Thatcher, with her eye firmly on the other side of the pond, fundamentally changed the British view on this. For a while, we stopped blaming the government for everything and grudgingly started to take more responsibility. It was grudging though, and as soon as New Labour got in, we went happily back to blaming our government for everything; just like the old days.
It is clear, however, that things are swinging violently in both America and Europe. The sails are flapping dangerously in a veering wind. For the moment at least interventionism is in, in a wild, wild way. Who knows whats going to happen next?
'the times they are a-changing'
Complain about this comment
As an Englishman the greatest surprise I found moving to America was to discover its basic conservatism - that is the antithesis of change. Change happens here as a reaction to this conservatism - such as the way in which Bush made Obama possible. But The Constitution is over 200 years old, the founders considered a revison in every generation - but only an incremental process has occured - and yes sometimes the increment is sudden (and perhaps increment is too small an idea), but somewhat belated - e.g. abolition of slavery. America clings to a 19th century nation statehood - I know this is rather simplistic but I think 9/11 was America's 1914 (that puts it about 100 years behind the curve). Please remove your blinkers as you did recently over heath care.
China actually has a long history of 'bottom up' change, Emperors who wanted to stay in power would join the throng (at the front), just as Mao did in the Cultural revolution, recent changes in Chinese law regarding property for example) reflect the goverment catching up with the changes taking place in Chinese society. (I am not a China expert - this latter understanding comes from listening to the BBC commentator so I am sure there is someone you know who can confirm this.)
Complain about this comment
Ref 8
"So, Dominick, I don't think minorities will be in the majority, or the minority. Eventually they will become just plain Americans."
I agree, my point, which I did not articulate properly should have referred to the rapidly disappearing Norman Rockwell society that some are so desperately trying to preserve, and the fact that the days of government and corporate America being dominated by white men are numbered.
Hopefully, it will not be long before terms such as Hispanics, Latinos, African-Americans, Cuban-Americans, Asian-Americans, Pacific Islanders and all the other hyphonated terms used to separate us join the annals of history and we can all call ourselves Americans.
Hopefully the changes will not be limited to ethnic inclusion, and will also include the ability of women to rise to positions of leadership. I think it is embarrassing that we have not yet had a woman President and that the number of female CEOs are a rarety, at a time when industrialized and developing nations have female Presidents, PMs, and CEOs. The few tokens we have do not alter the fact that America is lagging the rest of the world in that regard.
Complain about this comment
One thing that will never change in the u.s. is its nauseatingly enthusiastic and uncritical support of israel - "U.S. House passes landslide vote backing Israel in fight against Hamas" - and israel's barbaric crimes committed against the people of Palestine.
I returned to these pages for the first time in a long while, thinking (ludicrously) that there may be a mention of these events, but no, it's just the usual mawkish drivel about "hope", "vibrancy", "change" etc.
Mr Webb, please, I beg you, do not return to the UK; I fear such a sudden inrush of saccharine will kill us all.
Complain about this comment
Ref 39
"I returned to these pages for the first time in a long while, thinking (ludicrously) that there may be a mention of these events, but no, it's just the usual mawkish drivel about "hope", "vibrancy", "change" etc."
Take a look at the thread titled "Obama's Republican friends" and you will find plenty of opinions on the topic you cited.
Incidentally, there are many Americans that do not approve or condone Israel's policies and actions, who question the legitimacy of the creation of Israel, and who are sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians, but there are other topics of great interest and critical importance to us that also deserve to be debated. Sorry you find them so ludicrous.
Complain about this comment
habitual hero if you go to the post marked
"Obama's republican fans "you will see that this has been discussed ,but unfortunately a bit too much so we have generally left it in that post so as to not tie up these other posts. but well said,if it means anything.
Complain about this comment
Good take on the changing demographics .
America keeps reinventing itself and with the new trends it may not bode well for either the democrats of the republicans . We may find ourselves in a political playing field in which parties evolve to represent not only the vast regional differences in this country but the changed demographics.
The US is a country that hard to get your head around . Firstly, the US is massive with 300 million souls . Its also geographically and culturally diverse . DesMoines is not the same as L.A. for that matter , Urban America is profoundly different from Rural America .
Depending where you touch down, beyond the sameness of the strip malls and car dealerships which can give the visitor a sense of consistancy ,there are significant , cultural, political, economic and regional differences that make broad generalizations profoundly inaccurate . I believe that the US is morphing again. What will evolve will be quite different than what will be predicted
Complain about this comment
Going for Broke?
From my favourite Wall Straat columnist.Palestine? Don't ask! GRRRRR!
Peace and love
ed
Complain about this comment
18 gunsandreligion
Living in Canada must be like "living above a biker bar."
You often mention Canada, why is that?
Robin Williams describes it accurately.
At 11 a.m. it is very quiet and peaceful downstairs and we can come and go as we please, but at 3 a.m. all hell breaks loose so we keep our doors locked and our heads down. We have been known to creep down the stairs to aid the victims when national disasters strike (basement flooded, power lines down, etc). And they have very kindly come up assist us when our pipes break during ice storms.
We spend much time struggling to understand and accommodate the biker's point of view. And often ponder why they don't appreciate us more. We cause them so little trouble.
From time to time they try to tell us what to do and we do not like that at all! But we have found that if we ignore them they will forget we are up here and leave us alone. Recently they wanted to paint the whole building red, but we have been fighting furiously to keep that from happening. We prefer blue. Although we are colour blind and our blue is actually red. We're fond of maple trees in the fall. It's a bit confusing.
But there are many advantages and we are well aware of them. Security was never a problem - until 911 - which rocked us to our very foundation! We rushed down the stairs to offer any help we could and invited many into our home until it was safe for them to return to theirs. We have kept our opinions to ourselves as to why we think this might have happened. The bikers don't like to be crossed!
We don't rent this space we own it, so when times are tough we see no advantage in trying to blame our neighbours. We are a bit concerned about the debt they have racked up, but are confident they will find a way to pay their share to the taxes. They have always come up with a solution.
All in all we quite like the bikers. They are, underneath it all, very kindhearted and generous people.
Complain about this comment
Ref 38 DominickVila
How long will it take before the hyphenated Americans drop the hyphen?
A grade school teacher was explaining that all of us Americans came from somewhere else to form our nation. She went around the entire class asking each of us to tell the class our family's heritage. Everyone in my class were able to report the heritage from both sides of their family; most of them being third generation Americans. Until she got to me. I said we were Americans. She insisted I was wrong. I held to my identity. The teacher assigned for me to go home that night and find out where my father's people came from before immigrating to the U.S. A. and report back in the morning.
That evening my father comfirmed we were Americans, and that he had never really known with any certainty from whence we came. I pressed him further. He told me that as far as he knew we were probably English, Dutch, French, and German; adding that none of that really mattered because we were part of, and supported the Revolution that brought about this great constitutional experiment in governance. That was far more important, and a more worthy point of pride, than the claim to some long-forgotten heritage in lands where religion, social class, and royalty dictated one's opportunity; or lack thereof.
From there I went on to trace our genealogy. Even Great Aunts and Uncles who were still alive at that time could not recall our foreign origins with any certainty. Although they gave me many helpful, interesting vignettes of our sequential pioneering history across a vast land, and our family's 200 year involvement in local government and support of the Constitution of the United States of America. They always spoke, with great pride, of our role in helping build this nation from the start.
I was later able to discover that the melting pot of heritage my father had told me was true; starting from when the Englishman married the Dutch woman in the colony of New Amsterdam.
To this day, when asked about my heritage, I smile with pride and say; I'm an American without any hyphenation.
That is how we stop seeing ourselves as hyphenated Americans without any alliance to the place of our progenitors.
Complain about this comment
39. HabitualHero
Can't say I'm unsympathetic; I had a not dissimilar reaction to the previous post.
Britain will seem terribly dull, fuddy-duddy and fatigued, pining for the Romans to come back to give it a bit of vibrancy again.
I for one have no wish to see any of the innumerable previous posts about Israel and its actions in Gaza repeated yet again here, since they get nowhere, but you (and maybe one or two others, since it also has some relation to another aspect in changing demographics) may find thispollinteresting.
Complain about this comment
Ref 45
"I'm an American without any hyphenation.
That is how we stop seeing ourselves as hyphenated Americans without any alliance to the place of our progenitors."
My ethnicity and heritage is 100% from Spain, but I also consider myself an American first. No hyphens.
Unfortunately, that is not the way large segments of our population are viewed by our government and corporations who continue to separate citizens by ethnicity for a number of reasons.
Hopefully inter-marriage, immigration, travel, education, and the enforcement of civil rights laws will soon make the need to categorize people unnecessary.
Incidents such as the recent shooting in Houston or the lynching of an Ecuadorean native in New York City a few weeks ago by a gang intent on teaching a lesson to a Hispanic are the last vestiges of racial and cultural intolerance, and all our citizens can not only call themselves Americans - without the need to use a hyphen - but see themselves as no different to everyone else.
Complain about this comment
45 - publiusdetroit
Nice post. I applaud your American-ness.
I work alot with Americans and am often bemused as to their steadfast hold on some 3 or 4 generation old link to Europe. For a nation that is often so disparaging of the old continent, many Americans also paradoxically seem intent of identifying themselves with some romanticised aspect of it, yet often without retaining any real understanding of the politics, culture, or any knowledge of the language .... I've met plenty of "Italian-Americans" who hadn't heard of Berlusconi, complain about the "relaxed" (=slow) mediterranean service and turned their nose up at Espresso!
Or else they have 3 words of 100 year old regional dialect that hasn't been spoken here since the first world war, and get upset that no one understands them.
Also given that after 3 generations most Americans can claim 3 or 4 different hyphenations, they can be Italian for food, Irish for green beer, German for sausages and Scottish for Scotch.
Considering most of the immigration from 1800-1950 from Europe was a result of desperate poverty, why there is this longing to identify with some lost utopia that never was, I cannot fathom.
It also seems that only certain groups do this .... does Arnie call himself an "Austrian- American"?
In my eyes 1st generation immigrants would get the hyphenation as they did actually come from elsewhere. Otherwise, born in America, call yourself American and leave it at that.
I know it's really none of my business as I'm British. It's just an opinion.
Complain about this comment
All too often in the course of human history, the once oppressed become the oppressors with a terrible vengance, learned from their oppressor, to exact upon another people they choose to oppress.
I keep asking myself, what is the difference between an expansionist nation that sees itself as racially superior to all others, and an expansionist nation that claims it is to be inhabited and ruled by "Gods chosen people" as ordained in a book of their own creation?
How is it that we Americans can so blindly support a militant theocracy when our constitution holds so high the seperation of church and state by it's very position in our Bill of Rights? Are we the people who once declared that there are certain unalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?
Complain about this comment
#28. allmymarbles: "don't you think that we are vibrant because we HAVE room? We are not all scrunched up as we would be in Europe. Just driving west for 15 minutes (from a very populous area) I am in the forest with deer and skunk and no houses or people, except for the rare small town that comes into view. It makes you feel expansive, unfettered - free."
Nice point, but perhaps we have a different interpretation of what Justin meant by 'vibrant'. I read it as meaning that all of America is pulsing with life, city lights and everything which makes cities like New York and Chicago. That there are wonderfully quiet parts in between didn't strike me as being vibrant, but I take your point.
How fortunate to have the forest (almost) at your doorstep; when I first arrived in Los Angeles I suggested to my companion that we go for a drive "in the country", as we might have done back in England. The response -"there isn't any." It's true, one has to drive a lot more than fifteen minutes to get to any semblance of countryside. Even then it's desert, except for the mountains and wonderful scenery. Not quite the bucolic picture you paint - but the weather tends to be better!
Complain about this comment
49 publiusdetroit
In general I agree with your post, but I must take issue with the 2nd paragraph .... overt or subtle comparisons of Nazi Germany and Israel serve no purpose in this debate and will only draw the crazies onto this post and away from the Editor's Blog where the Gaza/Israel issue belongs this week.
That said your first paragraph could be applied to the cycle of intolerance in the USA over the different waves of immigrants .... first the Irish were discriminated against, then came the Italians, the Poles, the Germans etc etc - each group integrating and then perpetuating the same intolerance that was shown to them.
On the same note, this is partly why I do not understand the American dislike of welfare. Given that most people's antecedants were poor, and given the level of professed "Christianity", one would think that Americans would be more in favour of the helping hand to those in need.
(and before all the Republicans bite back about dole-scroungers and single mothers, it is well known that for every scrounger, bludger and cheater on the welfare, there are 10 who really need it - where's your Christian charity now?)
Complain about this comment
#44, timewaits, I have had these discussions
before with one of your compatriots, chronophobe.
Ever since Benedict Arnold was turned back
in his attempt to take Quebec, we Americans
have wondered, "Why did he go there?"
And so, many of us have taken upon ourselves
this quest to understand our northern friends.
But, in the last century, an evil King Nixon usurped
the throne down here, and suddenly many had
to find new nests. Sadly, they had to leave their
bikes and firearms behind. But, occasionally,
I run into them, and I must ask them, "What is
life like in the magical realm of the Ice Queen?"
And, no, I am not talking about Alaska.
And, they respond with glowing eyes. "It's so
quiet," they say, and then they go on to describe
all of the magical people, places, and things
with which they surround themselves.
And, so, timewaits, I eagerly anticipate the
day when I shall be able to enter your magic
realm. Until then, I bid you adieu, and if
you find that time hurries, I say, sit by a golden
pond and let it pass.
Complain about this comment
#46. british-ish wrote: "I for one have no wish to see any of the innumerable previous posts about Israel and its actions in Gaza repeated yet again here, since they get nowhere"
Something we can agree upon! Ed I (#43) take note.
Complain about this comment
David,
Here's one you'll agree with;-)
ed
Complain about this comment
Ref 48
"Americans also paradoxically seem intent of identifying themselves with some romanticised aspect of it..."
Americans are not the only ones interested in learning about ourr roots, honoring our ancestors and being proud of our heritage. My hobby, since I retired, had been genealogy and one of the things I found, besides a lot of information about most branches of my family, is the great interest in genealogy that exists not only in the USA but in Latin America, Canada, and Australia.
Obviously, our interest is due in part to a desire to know more about ourselves, but to a degree it is influenced by a desire to learn about our ancestral homeland, its history, geography, and the circumstances that prevailed when our ancestors lived there.
Conversely, I have found very limited interest in genealogy in European countries, which I attribute to the fact that most people in the Old Continent remain not only in their ancestral homeland, but quite often in the same towns and even in the houses where their ancestors lived. As a result, they don't have to investigate the past, it is there for them to see and touch.
Having said all this, I consider myself an American first and would not change my country for any other, regardless of faults or "dire" circumstances.
Complain about this comment
52. gunsandreligion
"Why did he go there?"
Apparently he thought we longed for "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness," but instead found we preferred "Peace, order and good government." He soon realized the error of his ways and switched sides. (If you have been keeping up with recent Canadian politics then you will know the "good government" part is lacking at the moment. Reference the bikers trying to paint the building red (or in our case blue).)
Am I to presume you are a Vietnam Vet? You obviously do not have to answer the question.
Although a Canadian my brother served, but unfortunately is not still with us. It took 20 years for the war to kill him, but kill him it did. You will not find his name on the wall in Washington.
I'm way off topic. What is being discussed? Oh right! Forests, well we have lots of those and immigrants, ditto. We encourage them to keep their language and culture so, for example, third / fourth generation Italians still speak Italian and produce fabulous food. We believe it enriched us all. Our tossed salad to the American melting pot.
I own a house on an Island where I often do nothing more than sit and watch the mighty St. Lawrence flow by.
As I have said before our southern neighbours are more than welcome to join us as long as they promise to leave their gunsandreligion at home.
Complain about this comment
Me (54),
Correction (I blame flawed bbc software)
;-)
ed
Complain about this comment
Ref 51 RomeStu
You are right RomeStu. This blog is about the subject of America. So was my Ref 49.
We're we once not a nation of oppressed people feeling our ways and beliefs more superior to the people we were removing from a land they held for centuries? Did we not learn the seeds of how to oppress and remove those people from our oppressors?
The genocide of the tribal people we conquered and destroyed remains a horrid scar mostly ignored in our history as a nation. Ignored because of our national shame for having destroyed entire nations of people in the way we destroyed them. We tried to starve them to death. We poisoned them with alcohol to make them into fools. We deliberately exposed them to small pox and other biological attacks. We systematically executed men, women, and children through use of military force.
Fortunately, we the people who were to be like a house upon a hill whose beacon was to be a shining example, became very ashamed for our horrible actions against a poorly armed, technologically deficient, valiant people we oppressed; and slowly our hatred came to an end before we had completed the intentional genocide of all the tribes.
Perhaps this is why we are a vibrant people. We periodically take time out to examine our being; and change that which is leading us to our own distruction. We keep recreating ourselves; and thus, our nation.
Perhaps the people of Israel will find shame in there actions before another tribal people are extinquished. Perhaps they will remember how they were once oppressed and become a nation who defends the unalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness among all the people of the world.
Complain about this comment
My impression is that people in Great Britain still identify themselves with the regional groups of Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England.
How deep are the differences based upon region? For a while Scotland had a political party that wanted to separate from the English. And there has been a resurgence in learning ancient Celtic languages.
How unified is Britain as a nation? and is there discrimination based upon the regions?
Did Gordon Brown lose his Scottish accent because it would help him gain power?
Complain about this comment
Another one for David.
Complain about this comment
publius 58
MASSIVE APOLOGIES for misunderstandin your subtlety.
I guess I jumped to conclusion as I rarely hear Americans describe the USA as expanionist, when it's own domestic history over the old Mexican territories of the "West" shows it was exactly that.
I should have realised from your rational posts that you wouldn't make such a crass statement as I mistakenly read.
Best wishes
Complain about this comment
Hi Beth,
That party (Scottish National), being the largest party in the Scottish Parliament since May 2007, is now in charge of Scotland's devolved Executive.The differences are not large, but local and regional pride is no bad thing. The more decisions made at local levels, the better, so far as I'm concerned, as Jefferson had it Scots Law has always been different from English Law, which prevailss in Wales, and I don't know about Northern Ireland.... but the folk are mostly the same, though proud of their regional cultural differences/features. Loads of kilts at English weddings, though...
Peace
ed
Complain about this comment
about the hyphenated Americans one and all ...
The distinction many make by claiming hyphenated status is that it perhaps provides some explaination as to where they fit in the scheme of things .
The experience of the our ancestors and their stories give great clues to the version of the American Experience that they have ;lived as there are many more than one.
Just as the Englsih seem to be able to discern discern the class ,location and education of another English speaker from England and perhaps from elsewhere too , Americans have our own system .
When I was growing up in Chicago as a kid the question was:" What parish do you live in" .
The response would reflect the probable religion , economic status , way of life , education and from the accent alone close placment to the various neighborhoods of Chicago.
The surname in conjunction with the other information would give some insight as to experience , subculture and the like .
My wife who happens to be English, always is amused when I refer to myself in the hyphenated sense Italian- American .
She advises me that I am no more Italian than the local franchise Italian resturant.
I expain that I am not claimg to be Italian in the sense that I am immersed in the culture language or way of life in modern Italy but what I am is distinct , a certain brand of American that like all other hyphenated Americans have a commonality not with the ancestor's native country but with all the other like experienced Americans, whose ancestors were forced to leave by the economics, politics and exploitation or religious freedom . I think its a lesson that should not be forgotton nor does it diminish my Americanism . More than all things ,I am a product of the American Experience and reflect one group's experience ..the Italian Americans
Complain about this comment
Ref 44 timewaitsfornoman
Greatings from your biker neighbor to the north! Yes (for those who don't know); Detroit is actually north of Windsor, Ontario, Canada.
I have lived most of my life in the small, upper flat above you. Thanks for being such a good neighbor. I wake up to the aroma of eggs and peameat. I stop by to mooch some fries with gravy. I listen to CBC radio and watch CBC television broadcasts.
I get a different perspective on world events from your news broadcasts; often finding that point of view from your media to be more informative than the media we have here in the upper flat. Somehow I've become to think that your media is more free than ours. How else can you explain the success of "This Hour Has Twenty-two Minutes" and, the now bygone, "Royal Canadian Air Farce" on a government owned network?
This also affords me a good knowledge of how you run your household. It's a fun, comfortable home to visit.
Travel 40 miles from my vestibule, and the most my fellow flat-mates know about Canada is that they play hockey; and Tim Horton is the Prime Minister. (I like to visit him for a dutchie and coffee so I can roll up the rim)
I do spend a lot of time in your flat and have come to know that we share the same Grandmother and Grandfather from across the pond. But we are the cousins that rode off on our hogs at an early age to mix-it-up with the hot-blooded sentiments of our other neighbors to the south, while you competed with the relatives on Grandfathers' side.
We became pretty cocky over winning all the rumbles we had with them. We still have not learned that any story that includes, "...and then we started drinking tequila..." usually ends in some kind of foolishness. We don't mind being foolish quite often.
You are the cousins that stayed home to clear the snow from grandmothers' walks and porch; kept to drinking your ale and rye; were content to play hockey in your own neighborhood. You still like messsing it up with the BQ side of the family.
Yet what I have come to know best is that aside from our "Born to be Wild" attitude and your "What are the hosers doing now" curiosity; we are still, basically the same family.
Although, I think Grandmother likes you best; she gets a hoot our of our antics and we can get her to go out on the town with us, when she has a mind to walk on the wild side.
Get the kitchen band together; and I'll bring the tequila, cuz! We won't tell Grandma what happened until next Victoria Day.
Complain about this comment
Ed
I love that image of the dove...
The US is divided by region. You can see it very clearly with the map showing how different areas voted in the last presidential election. These regions reflect divides in philosophical differences about government and religion.
I would even consider the Republicans to be a party that opposes change...
Are there those kinds of divides in Britain?
And because Britain now has groups who were not originally from Great Britain...is that changing anything? in voting patterns and in values?
I am trying to understand why Justin sees the US in such a favorable way...Is Britain more stagnant than the US? To me Britain seems very vibrant.
Complain about this comment
We are all hyphenated Americans. Most just choose not to label themselves. There is a point where it becomes cumbersome to continue using it. Especially if you are a few generations removed and mixed.
English-American, German-American, French-American, Welsh-American, Irish-American, Italian-American, African-American (of which are all the various regions you can tell the difference from west, east, south Africans)
My fathers side of the family comes from southern Germany near the French border in the early 1700's, they are a mix of French and German families. My mothers side is a mix from Scotland, and Wales.
I ended up with black hair and blue eyes. And would have a hard time using any of the labels German-Welsh-Scot-French-American. Not to mention a dab of Native-American (Waccamaw of SC who were pretty much wiped out in the late 1700s) on my fathers side.
Complain about this comment
47, Dominick.
"My ethnicity and heritage is 100% from Spain, but I also consider myself an American first. No hyphens."
Ditto. The hyphens are misleading and divisive. My family came from Sicily more than 100 years ago. I can't speak Italian, am not Catholic, and couldn't dance a tarantella no matter how much you paid me. Add to that that we have intermarried all over the place. My mother told me some years ago that a cousin was running for public office and had the Italian-American vote. Laugh! Laugh! Laugh! We couldn't stop.
The greatest misuse of the hyphen is "African-American." American Blacks are about as African as I am.
Complain about this comment
63, lawchicago.
By persisting in calling yourself Italian-American, long after the Italian connection is lost, you are pigeon-holing yourself and skewing people's reaction to you. They may see you as you, but overlaid is everything they assume to be Italian. Don't you think it's time to move on?
Complain about this comment
Ref 61 RomeStu
I was not offended by your assumption, and thank you for your opinion that my posts are rational.
There are so many contributors to this blog that offer a diversity of thought which is wonderfully provocative. I value your own thoughts and opinions as well. Our freedom of expressing our thoughts and speech allow us to progress as a species.
Like the forefathers of this nation who published under the pen name "Publius" their thoughts for the support of federalism at the time of the drawing up of the Constitution; I try to add something that draws us back to that marvelous document created over 200 years ago that we as a nation owe so much of our survival as a people living in liberty to the wisdom of that document and the framers of it. Our Constitution gives us the ability to amend our weaknesses as we the people see fit; and should assure our continued ability to have a strong, vibrant, united nation.
My mission is to support our "Bill of Rights" through inspiring others to read them; study how they came to be; and protect them for further generations to enjoy as they renew our vitality for the next generation after them.
Complain about this comment
bethpa @59
lots of questions. I'll try to give my take on them .....
"My impression is that people in Great Britain still identify themselves with the regional groups of Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England."
It is generally fair to say that the only British who identify themselves as such are the English. The Welsh and Scots tend to be more specific.
The Northern Irish are not British (they are citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - Great Britain is an island, the UK is a nation), and so they would only ever claim to be Irish.
Incidentally, while in football (soccer in the USA) Northern Ireland and the REpublic of Ireland have seperate national teams, in rugby there is jst one Ireland team that draws players from all. Peace and rugby,eh.
________________________________
"How deep are the differences based upon region? For a while Scotland had a political party that wanted to separate from the English. And there has been a resurgence in learning ancient Celtic languages."
Regional differences are huge, especially given the small size of the country, and these are mainly historic.
Scotland does have a seperatist party - the SNP and they currently hold power in the devolved Scottish parliament. However most Scots do not want to seperate from the United Kingdom.
Re the languages - Gallic is spoken very little in Scotland.... close to dying out (see link below)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/2755411.stm
whereas Welsh is on the rise.
Hope this is helpful
Complain about this comment
65 bethpa - how inquisitive you are. I'm delighted as with greater knowledge and understanding of other cultures we can hopefully avoid future unpleasantness.
"And because Britain now has groups who were not originally from Great Britain...is that changing anything? in voting patterns and in values?"
Immigration into Britain began in earnest post WW2, so we do not have the long history of inter-mingled cultures that exists in the USA (some exceptions .... Chinese in London from 1700s .... mainly in the docks).
People are often shocked to discover how homogenous Britain is ... especially if they have only visited major cities.
The last census in 2001 showed that the Uk
was
white
Complain about this comment
aaah! sorry bethpa, I pressed wrong button
2001 census showed UK to be
White 92%
Mixed race 1%
Asian 4%
Black 2%
Other 1%
(For information, in the UK Asian is given to mean Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi - not Chinese, Korean etc.)
Minorities are a very small part of the UK, but tend to live mainly in the larger cities, and therefore have had some impact in terms of voting.
The first black MPs were elcted in 1987, and currently there are 15 minority MPs (out of 646) in parliament.
Minorities are under-represented, but catching up.
Complain about this comment
47, dominick.
63, lawchicago.
Around the time I entered college, I got really mad at my mother and left home. I translated my Italian surname to its English equivalent so that no one could find me (in those days if you were under 21 you could be forced to return home).
The name change produced an unexpected bonus. I was no longer viewed as a Latin sexpot, nobody asked me to make spaghetti, and no one tiptoed around my supposed religiousity. That is to say I evoked no preconceived notions of who I was. I became a cypher until people got to know me. I had the freedom to be myself. I still keep my translated name, even though I am married, because it marks the point where I became me.
Complain about this comment
Well written Lawchicago # 63,. My own feeling too, as an observer.
It is as important to remember ones heritage as it is to keep quiet about it. You are all Americans, first and foremost, so do not be ashamed to be proud of it.
Read through most of the postings and though I see the sense about losing or dumbing down the "hyphen" that many wear proudly, surely you Americans are only looking at your own individual position in America as it is today, as though forgetting that the Statue of Liberty will not still be throwing her arms wide open to welcome further immigrants. They too will carry their memories of the lands they left behind to join you, and before they assimilate will echo the hyphen feelings you so correctly wish to banish to the dustbin of old history.
The hyphen will diminish but it will never be completely irradicated from background thoughts and conversations.
Complain about this comment
There is a self-governing community within the city limits of Detroit by the name of Hamtramck (ham-tram-ick). It's origins are that of a Polish enclave on the outskirts of the city. (Now surrounded by the city of Detroit) Polish immigrants made it a landing place for many decades. Presently, it is a haven for Albanians, Indians, Sri Lankans, Croatians; Iranians; Yemenis, Iraqis... the list goes on and on.
I recently lived in that little city for about ten years always in awe when watching the transformation of new immigrants into new citizens. It's the same old story of previous waves of immigrants from other lands. The parents cling to their old ways and language; comfortable and familiar to them. The children very quickly pick up English so they can assimilate into their new environment; introducing the language and culture of their new land into their own households.
It always amazed me how quickly prejudices brought with them from their old lands melted away as children from India began "hanging out" with children from Sri Lanka; Albanians meshed with Croatians; Yemeni children went to mosques with Omanis. A couple years onward they all were "hanging out" together irregardless of their origins.
Yes. There are times when hot blood and old prejudice boils into confrontations. It's amazing how seldom this happens when considering that all of these groups are crowded together in 2.5 square miles of land and many of them are ancient enemies.
Most of these families moved from their old lands to this land escaping from petty, endless wars and limited opportunity. It appears they have also found that they can live together in a guarded sort of harmony as they become more familiar with each other. The guards soon drop. They learn how to become part of their new land from each other.
I still live close enough to be able to enjoy the diverse opportunities to eat exotic foods from a vast expanse of the world brought here by the new immigrants. I also get to converse with these people of many lands and learn more about the culture and beliefs of the places they emigrated.
Ain't that America?!
Complain about this comment
Bethpa # 59,
Thank you for the compliment regarding Gordon Brown as somebody important with a restrained Scottish accent. In reality he is a "Spitting Image" rubber fleshed puppet being worked with a foot control, whose voice changes, are totally dependant upon the puppeteer. Nobody human could look so bad in a suit!
On a par with models from the big 3 auto-makers, a little out of date.
They are working on a new replacement with a better bodywork etc, a more population friendly model, but progress takes time.
Be happy you have ordered delivery of a shiny new black roadster, and can soon be throwing your own broken mechanical puppet away too.
Complain about this comment
75 - publius
Wise words, and I particularly like this bit of your post
"It always amazed me how quickly prejudices brought with them from their old lands melted away as children from India began "hanging out" with children from Sri Lanka; Albanians meshed with Croatians; Yemeni children went to mosques with Omanis. A couple years onward they all were "hanging out" together irregardless of their origins."
because basically we are all human and most prejudice springs from ignorance and fear of the unknown. Or worse indoctrination of the ignorant by others with a motive to foment hatred, as we are seeing happen at the moment.
More education. More communication. More understanding. Then we will have less senseless war.
Complain about this comment
77, Rome.
"More education. More communication. More understanding. Then we will have less senseless war."
That would be true if it were people who make war. It isn't. It is governments, and their priorities are not ours. They don't even care what we think.
Complain about this comment
What most people outside the U.S (with the exception of Canadians and Australians) fail to understand America is an international melting pot.
Except for the extreme right or left most people celebrate the cultural differences.
Too much press is given to the Flying Imans or the agrieved members of La Raza.
Complain about this comment
68. allmymarbles
Thanks for the sugestion but I think I will keep my identity as a Hypenated -American .
The way people react to me is the very point I was making . For most of my life ,I didnt have to apply the label of ethnicity it was applied to me ..by schools , teachers and employers ( I have a very Italian sounding last name )
I am not willing to have to reinvent myself as a neutral ethnic In my office we have lots of" hypnenated people" Mexican Amercians, Arab Americans , German Americans and me the Italian American , all of which are very proud of where their respective families came from and all quite adept at cooking up some food to die for .
My kids are a mix of a number of nationalities including native American so they are not as much of the hypenated sort although in a odd twist my daughter did end up living in Venice Italy .
I have a copy of my grandfather's citizenship papers on my wall at my law office . It reminds me as I practice immigration law that we are all immigrants and the the promise of this country is somethng worth protecting for new as well as old immigrants
Complain about this comment
#79 RomeStu
2001 census showed UK to be
White 92%
Mixed race 1%
Asian 4%
Black 2%
Other 1%
Considering how many British successful people are of a 'mixed race' it's interesting to note how successful an Ethnic group they are. Let's not forget Obama's mixed heritage of course.
Complain about this comment
Ref 77 RomeStu
We are in accord when you state;
"because basically we are all human and most prejudice springs from ignorance and fear of the unknown. Or worse indoctrination of the ignorant by others with a motive to foment hatred, as we are seeing happen at the moment.
More education. More communication. More understanding. Then we will have less senseless war."
Might I add; reliance upon each other?
Those immigrants most able to survive and prosper best; were those most willing to learn from their neighbors...irregardless of that neighbors national origins.
An Hungarian neighbor next door taught the Albanian mother living in my lower flat, the marvels of the coin-operated laundry at the end of the block. (Even though they shared no common language between them) No longer did the Albanian mother wash her clothing in a bucket using the water spigot beside the house to wash the clothing of her family.
The Albanian mother suddenly found more free time. Ironically, she was able to learn English more quickly than her husband, who worked three jobs. (Such highly sought positions as dishwasher, busboy, janitor) She was able to watch "soap operas" in the afternoon; picking up on the emotional communications between the actors, and the simple messages of the commercials to teach her American phrases and meanings.
This type of "education" took place constantly in each immigrant group.
Complain about this comment
80, law.
"I am not willing to have to reinvent myself as a neutral ethnic...."
You misunderstand me. We are each supremely unique. The way to find that uniqueness is to remove pressures. It happened to me accidentally and I learned a lot about myself. I learned even more when I went to live abroad. Resident in a third-world country, I was neither pressured by my American culture, nor expected by my host culture, to conform. That added yet another dimension to my life. I never wanted a safety net.
Complain about this comment
#71 RomeStu
I think you have given me the answer
"People are often shocked to discover how homogenous Britain is ... especially if they have only visited major cities."
Because London is very much like NYC to a visitor and your films show diversity. It is surprising that after all this time on a relatively small island there are still such clear distinctions like Scottish and Welsh. I think that may be because of the class structure that held for so long in Britain?
It seems like there was some acceptance of other peoples and cultures with the British empire...but intermarriage was I guess frowned upon...
I am an Irish, German, British, French, Australian American (not in any particular order)...and some like to call me anti American : ) Oh well...
Complain about this comment
32 Ladycm
This is a bit 'late in the day' to reply to your posting, but Allmymarbles scepticism of use of the word "recession", or rather it's use, struck a chord because it is something that has also irked me for a long time.
"Depression" is not a fashionable word for politicians and most economists to use, even when we are smack dab in the middle of one.
"Recession" is the state of the economy when it is receding (contracting), but when the receding finally hits bottom the economy is in a 'trough' (whether shallow or deep) referred to in economics textbooks as the "depression". Yet even when we reach that point after fairly steep or steep recession, we still hear politicians and supposed economists waffling on pitifully about 'recession', as if it is beyond them emotionally and truthfully to state the fact that we've hit bottom or are somewhere in the trough, and that happens to be a depression.
Even when economic recovery occurs we are told we were in 'recession', never a 'depression', which does not explain how we got from recession to up-turn (recovery). Evidently we are supposed to believe that we never hit bottom, instead miraculously leapt across the valley - the trough - and thus miraculously missed a depression. We didn't miss one, but never mind.
The depression of the 1930 was the 'Great Depression'. Others less severe have occurred, yet listening to politicians and bright spark 'experts' out there you'd think that no more had occurred.
I hope this 'wondrous' explanation makes sense to you.
Complain about this comment
#80. lawchicago wrote: "I think I will keep my identity as a Hypenated -American."
There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. When I refer to hyphenated Americans, I do not refer to naturalized Americans. Some of the very best Americans I have ever known were naturalized Americans, Americans born abroad. But a hyphenated American is not an American at all. -
President Theodore Roosevelt
Complain about this comment
"I work alot with Americans and am often bemused as to their steadfast hold on some 3 or 4 generation old link to Europe. For a nation that is often so disparaging of the old continent, many Americans also paradoxically seem intent of identifying themselves with some romanticised aspect of it, yet often without retaining any real understanding of the politics, culture, or any knowledge of the language "
Indeed? How difficult for you. All of this shallow, spiteful, malicious abuse of Americans: you sound like a provincial matron abusing her neighbors at a garden party and thinking herself very witty and superior.
Bemused indeed....
Complain about this comment
Can not place very much credence on your blogs as you don't seem to know America is a continent and United States ti a country therein.
You don't report China as Asia and you don" report Britain as Europe.
But this seems to be a common error of British reporters.
Is it a result of not knowing or of trying to gain points.
Complain about this comment
86, David.
"But a hyphenated American is not an American at all."
Hyphenization suggests a divided loyalty. People, like my immigrant forebears came to this country to be American. They even used the American equivalents of their first names - Allesandro became Alex, Enrico became Henry, etc. I remember them from my early childhood speaking English with funny accents - but speaking English! And if you asked them their nationalities, they would say, "American," with great pride, I should add.
Complain about this comment
@pokealong
You must be from a Spanish or Latin country. And are under the impression that there is only one continent. There are two continents North America and South America. There is only one country known as America and that is the United States of America.
People from the USA are American(country) and North American(continent.) People from Brazil are Brazilian and South American. etc.
The North and South parts of the continental names are not cardinal directions they are actually parts of the name.
Complain about this comment
Re: 52 GnR And, so, timewaits, I eagerly anticipate theday when I shall be able to enter your magic realm. Until then, I bid you adieu, and if you find that time hurries, I say, sit by a goldenpond and let it pass.
Hey guns,
I saw your earlier posts about wanting to do a Steve McQueen ride to, uh, freezdom?
I, as it happens, have a Triumph Bonnie (a new one, and not a Scrambler, alas, but still eminently suitable). Let me know where you are, and when the snow melts, I'll ride down and you can use it to make your break for the land of milk and taxes.
By that time, I should even have a BMW to chase you with (wink, wink).
Cheers,
Canadian Pinko
Complain about this comment
#8 AMM
"... I don't think minorities will be in the majority, or the minority. Eventually they will become just plain Americans..."
Shouldn't that be how they are now?? I never understand this desire to be called "Italian-American", or "Irish-American" or "African-American" etc etc. It is this desire to have some notion of a past of genealogy, perhaps to give a reason for ones position and "suffering" a focal point and weight, that creates such divisions.
Where were you born...Africa, Italy, Ireland??...or just America.
Whenever one of these "African-Americans", "Irish-Americans" or whatever, goes to war or indeed fight in Iraq, do they proclaim themselves to be fighting for America or Africa??
Ethnicity is important, but its rather like wanting to living in your neighbours house just because your parents may go around for coffee once in a while for a chat. Just because they go to another houses doesn't by implication make it yours. One doesn't suddenly say i live at XXX and YYYY house. (YYY house being your neighbours!). Which is your home, where do you live, where were born and you raised???
Complain about this comment
#89.allmymarbles: "Hyphenization suggests a divided loyalty."
And does today - how many "Mexican-Americans" send money back to the "old country"? I can understand people acknowledging their heritage, but once the Oath of Allegiance is taken, the hyphenated nation should be lost. The fine British-born star Angela Lansbury always calls herself American, not Anglo-American. Others could well do the same.
Complain about this comment
The big criticism of US citizens is that so little is known about the rest of the world. Most don't have passports and have not traveled outside of the US. The news about other nations is very limited and the US tv media focuses on trivia.
The attempt to encourage children to think about where their ancestors came from is one of the few ways that Americans learn about other nations...
Complain about this comment
#70. RomeStu: "The Northern Irish are not British (they are citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - Great Britain is an island, the UK is a nation), and so they would only ever claim to be Irish."
But both mainland Britain and all of Ireland are geographically The British Isles!
Complain about this comment
Post-Wasp Canada (i.e., Canada after 1968), is the land of hyphenated national identity. And I think this is the best thing that ever happened to us. We went from a remote and frigid outpost of the British Empire to a remote and frigid microcosm of the global village in just over a single generation.
My wife is a Ukrainian-Canadian. My daughter lumbers through life with the hyphenated surname Szkabarnicki-Stuart. My good Polish friends, who came in the 80's, are landed immigrants, but hold their EU citizenship dear. Their children are also EU passport holders. The eldest son recently got a job in Sweden, but (and this is the trick), got himself transfered to NYC as soon as he could to be closer to his girlfriend in Toronto.
Three generations, and the meaningful ties to the old world, barring some major influence, fade away as naturally as a butterfly pops out of a chrysalis.
My daughter is already de-hyphenating her name in non-official use (just plain Stuart, I'm afraid).
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
Complain about this comment
re: 93 David C how many "Mexican-Americans" send money back to the "old country"? I can understand people acknowledging their heritage, but once the Oath of Allegiance is taken, the hyphenated nation should be lost.
Why shouldn't they send money home to their families? If you were in a situation of relative abundance, and those you loved best were in need, wouldn't you move heaven and earth to help them? I would.
That is why so may go to el Norte anyway, for the money. It takes time to break the ties that bind, particularly when you leave so much behind.
Yours,
El Pinko
Complain about this comment
4 Bienvenue.
More Perfect Union is about human rights and democracy.
Manifest Destiny is about American Imperialism, which gives both the neighbours upstairs others further south the willies.
The American Dream (often much ridiculed, but it looks pretty good right now) is about building a better life for your children in a house in the suburbs with a white picket fence and Chev Bel Air in the driveway, with Rob and Laura Petry or maybe Andy, Oppie and Aunt Bea, for neighbours.
They are not the same thing.
21. Marbles is right.
39 Habitual.
First, As others have noted, esp. David Cunard, this blog is supposed to be America-centric, and the mid-east received a more than thorough airing over the twelve (and more) days of Christmas.
Second, You need to visit the US, and not as a tourist but as someone who lives and works there.
America has its faults and weaknesses, sure enough. But it is an amazing country. Full of contradictions, and endlessly surprising. There is astonishing variety, and yet a broad shared core of values, and pride of country. Those values are good, generous, and resilient. There is a kindness and a decency that is deeply embedded in American culture, but that you would not see watching American news channels (frequently an oxymoron except for PBS and APR).
Americans can be both astonishingly narrow minded in their lack (on average) of general knowledge of or interest in world affairs (you can sit down now, Gov. Palin, Pres. Bush), and yet at the same time warm and open-minded and accepting of others in a way that you do not usually find in, for example, many European countries. Consider that the major European countries could not set aside their petty selfishnesses and jealousies in the 1990s to put an end to genocide 40 minutes' flight time from Vienna.
Often times this basic openness, positiveness, and optimism causes non-Americans to think Americans must be terribly naive, and for Americans to have difficulty understanding foreigners: "What's wrong with these A-rab folks trying to kill our boys? All we're doing is trying to help them. Cain't hardly understand it. Nope, not at all. Must be somethin' wrong with them fellers ..."
Americans tend to be relentlessly positive and decent, and to wish only peace, wealth and happiness for others. Sometimes, though, it gets twisted in the translation, and good intentions go badly, badly astray. Woodrow Wilson would provide an outstanding example of this phenomenon. George Marshal is an example of what happens when America gets it right.
91. Pinko
McQueen didn't manage to get over that last fence. I understand that he may be living at Tofino now, though.
Complain about this comment
94, bethpa.
"The attempt to encourage children to think about where their ancestors came from is one of the few ways that Americans learn about other nations..."
Except it doesn't. The stories passed down from my great-grandmother have proper young ladies satting on their balconies crocheting. Visit Sicility today and those proper young ladies are shacking up with their boyfriends. My great-randmother's stories depict 19th century Sicily.
No country is static. I was gone for the better part of 25 years. When I returned there were new words in vogue and new ones invented; the society had grown more narcissistic; there was less benevolence and sociability. People were leading more isolated lives. And that was only 25 years!
What is passed down through immigrant lore becomes myth in the here and now.
Complain about this comment
lawchicago wrote: "I think I will keep my identity as a Hypenated -American."
There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. When I refer to hyphenated Americans, I do not refer to naturalized Americans. Some of the very best Americans I have ever known were naturalized Americans, Americans born abroad. But a hyphenated American is not an American at all. -
President Theodore Roosevelt
"But a hyphenated American is not an American at all. "
I beg to differ its just that kind of thinking that I so staunchly disagree with .
No one has a right to define my Americanism .
I have never heard the foolishness of someone claiming someone wasnt Canadian or English enough .
It seems we are the only nation I know that would have something as odd as the House Committee for Unamerican Activities
How would Roosevelt know ? He was from a class of Americans (the Elite), who wouldnt comprehend it anyway .
I am not of divided loyalties at all nor were the brave Italian Ameicans including my four Uncles who fought for the US in Italy alongside other hyphenated Americans were most decidedly not .
I too have lived abroad, I dont need a safety net but I have a clear sense of my backround , history and identity . Italian -American I am .
Complain about this comment
For clarification
Great Britain (GB) is England, Scotland & Wales.
The United Kingdom (UK) is GB and Northern Ireland.
As D_C Noted, the expression "British Isles" is geographical and not political. IT consists of a group of Islands off the northwest coast of Europe. This definition does include Ireland, in this sense it is defined as the whole of Ireland, since it is not a political entity with 2 separate divisions, but merely one large island.
Complain about this comment
In Ref. to #98
I realize that they are not the same thing, but they are, however, different manifestations in history of the same American ideal and fits nicely with the topic of change over time.
Night everyone.
Complain about this comment
why do i keep getting "...Your comment contains some HTML that has been mistyped..." followed by "Data at the root level is invalid on line 1"
I delete anything that may cause 'offence' so there are just words on the first line?...and then promptly rejects the posting, again!...gggrrrr!!
Complain about this comment
re: 98 Interestedferiner
McQueen didn't manage to get over that last fence. I understand that he may be living at Tofino now, though.
LOL, himself and Elvis, watching the Gray Whales breach out in Clayoquot Sound. Still rides a Bonnie, I'd bet.
Cheers,
Canadian Pinko
Complain about this comment
No.98
"...Second, You need to visit the US, and not as a tourist but as someone who lives and works there..."
So you are saying one can only comment or take part in a debate regarding issues within a country if 1) you have lived there or 2) currently reside there?
"...Consider that the major European countries could not set aside their petty selfishnesses(sic) and jealousies...."
By this i assume you lived in major European countries?
Complain about this comment
The people most subject to immigrant myth are American blacks. The first slave ships arrived on these shores 482 years ago, and the last one in 1859. Little of Africa can remain in the memory of today's blacks. And then there are the changes that have taken place in Africa over that considerable period of time. Whatever memory that could possibly remain would bear almost no resemblance to that continent today. The only thing blacks have in common with Africa is skin color, and that is debatable, considering their considerable intermarriage with other riaces.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
allmymarbles
At least children who hear about Italy might be able to find it on a map..(Its the boot...)
When I asked my grandfather about our ancestors he told me his Irish grandfather was hung for stealing sheep and my grandfather was still bitter about it. And I asked because of a teacher's assignment to learn where our ancestors came from..
You have an idea of what 19th century Sicily was like because of the stories from your great grandmother. That's not a bad thing.
History is derived from original sources like diaries etc written by people like your great grandmother.
My Australian grand mother was born out of wedlock at a time when those children were blamed for the parents "immorality." She married and had 4 children, her husband died and then the Great Depression hit. I have her records of cleaning people's homes to help her family survive at a time when there was no government money to support those of us who were in trouble.
Those people who were my ancestors are a part of who I am. Some of their values have been passed down to me...
I support the hyphenations...it connects people to their ancestors and to other nations.
Complain about this comment
to plagiarise a famous shakespearean quote:
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose. By any other name would smell as sweet."
Hyphenated or otherwise, you are who you are...attach as many prefix or suffixes as you wish, it wont change who you are.
Complain about this comment
re: 100 LawChicago I too have lived abroad, I dont need a safety net but I have a clear sense of my backround , history and identity . Italian -American I am .
And good on 'ya.
Now, this is kind of personal, and if it offends I'm sorry, that's not the intent. But here goes: if you have, or should be so lucky to, reproduce, would it bother you if your son or daughter would marry a manga cake, or an East Indian, or . . . ?
My theory is that for most new world people, the mixing of "blood" is not an issue, and is in fact often seen in a positive light. How say you?
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
Complain about this comment
108, bethpa.
Granted some of the historical incidents that are handed down are interesting, even intriguing, and make good stories, but they don't make me what I am. Too much time has passed. It amazes me, for instance, that often the American descendants of Irish immigrants still hold a grudge against the British, or that the descendants of Scottish immigrants wear kilts at their celebrations. Should I crochet on a balcony to commemorate my origins (see #99)?
Complain about this comment
This is a time when America needs help from other nations.
When Italians for example or others hear about Americans calling themselves Italian Americans or other hyphenations they feel a sense of connection that is important particularly now...with the possibility of a world wide depression if America falters economically.
The hyphenations are good pr for America...I say use them.
Hyphenations help with the image of America being a nation that is open to people from nations around the world.
Complain about this comment
109, kecsnar.
There you go!
Complain about this comment
64 publiusdetroit
Enjoyed your post. Good to hear you listen to / watch the CBC. I'm always pleasantly surprised when I hear so many Americans phoning in or leaving comments on their site. Do you watch the Rick Mercer Report Tuesday @ 8 (8:30 in Newfoundland - should mean something to you).
Hockey is a religion in this country. How about those Wings eh? I hope you are not serious about PM Tim Horton!
How are things in Detroit? I saw a short news piece recently and it looked a little bleak.
Complain about this comment
110, chrono.
"My theory is that for most new world people, the mixing of "blood" is not an issue, and is in fact often seen in a positive light. How say you?"
I think it just is what is is, not good, not bad, just American. It certainly makes a problem for the hyphens though. In the interest of hyphen accuracy some people could be English-Arab-German-Cherokee-African-American.
Complain about this comment
allmymarbles
I bet if I knew you in the real world I would find some things that are related to your Sicilian ancestry.. : )
(And I love seeing men in kilts..even if not Scottish.)
chronophobe
"My theory is that for most new world people, the mixing of "blood" is not an issue, and is in fact often seen in a positive light. How say you?"
Its definitely good to mix races and nationalities...strong yes from me.
Complain about this comment
Other nations also have people who have ancestry from more than one nation.
Australians and Canadians..but even the Swedish, the French ... Its a world wide phenomena... the more mixing the better.
Complain about this comment
115AMM
Exactly..when we eventually have children, they could call themselves, if they so wished:
japanese-british-iranian-hungarian-german
Pathetic!
Complain about this comment
Marbles,
Yes yes, that's the point. After a while, who cares? You can pick and choose your hyphens.
In Canada, we really don't have a strong national identity to sublate the ethnic identities, so they linger in a kind of folklore-istic purgatory.
That's not, mind you, a bad thing. Great food. Interesting weddings.
Cheers,
Canadian Pinko
Complain about this comment
timewaits, chronophobe, about the motorcycle
thing... I actually don't know how to ride one.
This is probably a small problem, but it does
explain why I am not welcomed in biker bars.
As far as not being able to bring a gun
into Canada, I believe we solved that problem
before. I can procure a state of the art, precision
steel blowgun. It is not a firearm, but it is a
gun.
Now, as far as the religion thing goes,
I'm sure that with all of your immigrants,
they must bring some kind of faith with
them. So, I'll just do a little research and
blend in.
I may even invent a new country with a funny
name, its own quasi mediterranean cuisine,
and some questionable politics involving
a failing dynasty that I am fleeing.
I haven't quite got the accent down -
I'm thinking some cross of an Albanian and
Italian accent with a trace of Turkish.
Complain about this comment
11. At 04:19am on 11 Jan 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
"Granted some of the historical incidents that are handed down are interesting, even intriguing, and make good stories, but they don't make me what I am. Too much time has passed. It amazes me, for instance, that often the American descendants of Irish immigrants still hold a grudge against the British, or that the descendants of Scottish immigrants wear kilts at their celebrations. Should I crochet on a balcony to commemorate my origins?"
I've noticed we (British? English?) get a lot of flack over historical grudges . . .Is it a way of demonstrating un-hyphenated American patriotism, I wonder? Just a thought.
Just as well no-one over here in the Anglic/Saxon south where I live now still holds grudges against the Viking part of my ancestry and what they probably did, or I'd have been strung up from a lamp post long before now.
As for hyphenation bringing countries together, nice thought, but I can think of four[hyphen]American origins I wouldn't want to advertise in the USA just at the moment.
Complain about this comment
#11
KS,
Sadly, I think the real lesson here is the opposite. Those poor guys were either encouraged to borrow money on someone elses balance sheet that they couldn't repay (and now are bankrupt or losing their homes), or are now feeling the effects of the economic policies of an administration that professed to support their interestes, but really did not.
You can blame 'immigrants' and their ilk for your/their current troubles. Enron, Iraq, natural Gas in Europe, Lehman Brothers, mortgage based investments. Them darned pesky foreigners. It depends where you live as to who the foreigners are.
In the end we elected our government of the last 8 years and we now reap the results of their macro economic polices, ones that take 5-10 years to take effect.
The good news, if there is good news, is the folks 'just off the farm' seem to feel good with a little as they have been beaten by their champions for so long, that the rest of the population can move on. A pathetic situation, but one we must endure.
Sad Sam
Complain about this comment
#117
Beth,
Absolutely. Go visit London for a couple of days and count the types of food for sale, no city in the world is a bigger melting pot. Perhaps New york is a close second.
Travel educates.
Backpacker Sam
Complain about this comment
120. At 05:26am on 11 Jan 2009, gunsandreligion wrote:
"I may even invent a new country with a funny name, its own quasi mediterranean cuisine, and some questionable politics involving a failing dynasty that I am fleeing."
How about Monaco?
Complain about this comment
#111
Marby,
You should do as much crotcheting as you can, in my opinion. So long as your spouse and personal morals allow.
Kinky Sam
Complain about this comment
bethpa:
"The big criticism of US citizens is that so little is known about the rest of the world. Most don't have passports and have not traveled outside of the US. The news about other nations is very limited and the US tv media focuses on trivia."
And so many Americans do travel and do live in other nations and do have passports. We number in the millions.
This is an example of the stereotypes produced by sound bites found in the news. They must be resisted and questioned. Otherwise the news is reduced to trendy, foolish anti-American chatter that diminishes everyone.
Complain about this comment
Ref 114 timewaitsfornoman
I lifted the Prime Minister Tim Horton line from one of Rick Mercer's "Talking to Americans" shows. He was asking our inland Yanks for their opinion of Canada's Prime Minister "Tim Horton". Most of the people had no idea Tim Horton was a hockey player who developed a national chain of donut shops across Canada. They went on to praise how well PM Horton was running Canada and wished we could have him as our President. They were serious. I was in tears!
Have done some rock climbing along the Niagara Escarpment with a Newfie. He's always an half hour behind schedule. He said he was able to escape from The Rock when the RCMP were busy counting lobster boats. Something about them having trouble pulling their boots off to get to their toes.
I am of the opinion that your Newfies are the equivalent of our Cajuns. They were placed in our two nations to insure there is someone always having too good of a time. Music, food, hooch, and high jinx. Just what we need in this time of Depression.
Detroit is rather bleak now that the auto companies laid-off so many auto workers. It's interesting that the big 3 doesn't have any money to build cars, but they are putting on the glitzy, annual auto show starting next week to show off their latest heavy metal. Maybe the CEOs need to sit next to the RCMP, pull off their loafers to get to their toes too.
We've finally found a solution to our rush hour traffic problems. There's not enough people left working to cause a rush. The only places with the lights on in the city are Joe Lewis Arena and the casinos. Go Wings!
We'll get by, though. We always have found a way. We have lots of vacant pharmacies on the corners now that everybody's health insurance has been terminated with their loss of jobs. Tim's can open donut shops in them and spur our economy! Just think of it. PM Tim Horton saves the U.S.
Happy sledding, my friend.
Complain about this comment
33. At 09:10am on 10 Jan 2009, allmymarbles wrote:
32, lady.
"I think they are rewriting history by backdating word usage. A recession is a temporary downturn in the economic market. A depression is an economic disaster. We have not had an economic disaster since 1929."
We aren't rationing...yet.
Complain about this comment
#124, british-ish, why on earth would one wish
to flee Monaco?
However, in my case, abject poverty, coupled
by my lousy French and the fact that I look good
in a kilt (to women, I hope) could provide the reason.
O.K., I admit it! I'm really not an American at
all - I'm really from Monaco (if anybody is really
from there), and I just have one
miniscule problem with which I must
deal before I can emigrate to Canada.
Perhaps you or one of the other Brits on this
blog can put me up for a time while my
papers are being processed. My problem
is sort of like this.
Complain about this comment
126 TR444
Are you factoring all those rushing to get their passport owing to new travel restrictions going to Canada and Mexico and a few other countries...whereas before a passport was not needed?
Complain about this comment
85. At 00:17am on 11 Jan 2009, robloop wrote:
"Even when economic recovery occurs we are told we were in 'recession', never a 'depression', which does not explain how we got from recession to up-turn (recovery). Evidently we are supposed to believe that we never hit bottom, instead miraculously leapt across the valley - the trough - and thus miraculously missed a depression. We didn't miss one, but never mind."
I know! If this isn't a depression, then I don't want to know what a depression is. Another good point you mentioned the use of the word "great" depression. It was extremely laughable that this state we have been in for nearly a year apparently; wasn't referred to as a recession until a couple months ago. I kept hearing "we will be in a recession" as if regular Americans and non Americans affected by this for that, hadn't already felt like we were in a recession for some time. Why does the government try to spin things that can't be spun? The U.S. government is terrible at marketing.
Complain about this comment
112, bethpa.
"When Italians for example or others hear about Americans calling themselves Italian Americans or other hyphenations they feel a sense of connection that is important particularly now..."
Which leads me to a particularly silly story. Some years ago we went to Italy with our children. Whenever we had to do something, like take a cab or order food, five sets of eyes would look at me expecting, by some genetic predisposition, for me to speak Italian. They never seemed to accept that I couldn't.
I doubt that Italians would feel any connection with me and, if they did, it would be disappointing.
Complain about this comment
125, Sam.
Actually I can crochet, and I enjoy it too.
Complain about this comment
"If this isn't a depression, then I don't want to know what a depression is."
Look at the 1930s. That is a depression.
During the depression of the 1930s, the GDP of the US fell for four consecutive years. At the bottom in mid-1933, it had dropped by about 35%. It is likely that in 2009, GDP will drop by about 4%. This is obviously very painful, but there is no comparison with a very deep depression.
Unemployment is now above 7%. In the 1930s it topped 30% and as late as 1940 it was 17%. The Great Depression was infinitely worse than what we are experiencing now.
The stock market fell by 90% in the 1930s - about twice the current drop.
The housing market is in a true depression: the worst in the history of the US. But the rest of the economy is in a severe recession. It is not just playing with words. It is a description of reality.
Complain about this comment
#123. SamTyler1969: "Go visit London for a couple of days and count the types of food for sale, no city in the world is a bigger melting pot."
Los Angeles beats London and New York by more than a nose. Of course it's more spread out than those, but it's far more diverse.
Complain about this comment
129. gunsandreligion wrote:
#124, british-ish, why on earth would one wish to flee Monaco?
Debts at the Casino; avoiding that noisy Grand Prix and that ridiculous royle (sorry, Royal) family . . .
Complain about this comment
134, timothy.
"Unemployment is now above 7%. In the 1930s it topped 30% and as late as 1940 it was 17%."
I depends what factors make up the unemployment figure. These have chaned over the years. Our present unemployment figures does not include some groups. I believe (but haven't found the information yet) that the habitually unemployed are not included. The habitually unemployed are a growing number. If someone has these figures please give us this information.
Complain about this comment
Romestu (70),
The truth or not of this statement will be tested by referendum at some point in the next couple of years...Bethpa (65), Yes, and within parties as well as between themIt is, and there is much effect from immigration (from the EU and further abroad) and not all of it welcome to all Brits. There are virtual enclaves of Asian/Muslim origin in some towns and London neighbourhoods, and there is opinion and discussion on the question of "multiculturalism" Vs assimilation.
There is also the question of whether net immigration is a good or sustainable idea for the most densely populated country in Europe (England). The real danger in this is that it can be a vehicle for hidden racist/culturist agendas....
Stu, Except for the Jews, who are, as usual, disproportionally present in all areas of human achievement. All the rest of ya,
A fine discussion. Good to hear from y'all
ed
(a Virginian-American who happens to live in Scotland, and will become a Virginian-American-Scot when Independence (within Europe) is achieved)
Complain about this comment
David # 86
Thanks for the earlier link to Safari. Learning about it slowly- Nice to have another browser running in parallel with the other, where the possibilities for input [blogging] and research for an article can now be easily separated, instead of the confusing doubling-up using just the one browser.
When comments on the thread began to move toward the hyphenated divisions in USA society my first thoughts considered the " Chalmondely- Smythes and other names available, but these are few and far between your end, despite the retention of maiden names and the "junior" additions. Unlike your own endless knowledge, I found it necessary to Google " hyphenated Americans" looking for background info, and came across the Wiki page with the Roosevelt quote too.
Have not read all the listings, but on the page, pointers to injuries of culture, racism etc raised their head which seemed to negate one's pride in further promotion of ones hyphenated background. One blogger writes ... "the aim is not descriptive but de-constructive. There is a polemical edge to it, a provocation." Another that it allows one to eat from two tables, should that become necessary to succeed along a particular path!. I believe you mentioned in a much earlier posting the negative effects of multiculturalism in the UK where you too were born.
Possibly many of these negatives that arise, are linked to the situation of mixed marriage which on its own, has / had dire repercussions to the present and past fixed thinking in many countries, irrespective of the religious belief complications that already occur.
My initial reaction viewed the hyphenated individual in maintaining and flaunting his "roots" in American [and other] societies, as excess to requirements for the following generations, but something unavoidable on a first generation or lower level, considering America's open-armed welcome to immigrants. It will soon become a diluted manner of thinking but not disappear completely.
I repeat again that a persons heritage is important. Like others have mentioned I too could look to my past and could come up with an Irish, Spanish and English heritage, influenced by a Catholic and Protestant mixed parentage, but fortunately none of these attributes are required to be stamped on my forehead as being more or less a person than I am. Is not being just a human being enough in any land we visit or reside?.
Justin, I believe mentioned one of his children [a son?] was born in America, and I do hope the son will never forget that heritage fact.
Perhaps with the new changes recently announced in obtaining a visa to enter America, the "hyphen" showing a dual heritage is only of benefit for those speaking "broken English", who may retain dual nationality at passport control. If America should move to a more isolationist position, then Justin's future US holidays will be considered in a more favourable light, because he can claim to have American family, should he not retain his green card..
Keep holding his hand tight Justin, a family or father's individual past is of historical value, but soon- "The child is father of the man". William Wordsworth
Complain about this comment
134, Timothy.
"Unemployment is now above 7%. In the 1930s it topped 30% and as late as 1940 it was 17%."
Should we find comfort in the fact that we have not reached Great Depression or WWII levels of unemployment yet? Bear in mind that the 7.2% figure does not take into account the underemployed or those that have given up looking for a job and who, for reasons of their own, are not collecting unemployment benefits.
Great nations don't remain powerful by running huge budget and trade deficits, accumulating unsustainable debt, operating their government with borrowed money, losing rather than creating good jobs; ignoring science, education, and the environment; or by enthusiastically accepting huge expenditures in "defense" while ignoring social programs and investments in infrastructure that benefit the population.
There is, of course, the option of expanding the scope of our crusade so that Blackwater USA and firms involved in the reconstruction of what we destroy can start hiring once again...
Complain about this comment
Ed # 138,
Nice piece Ed. Said in a few words what I could not get over my tongue in a thousand and one.
About the... "will become a Virginian-American-Scot when Independence (within Europe) is achieved)"
Previous postings suggested you enjoyed being Virginian-American-Scotch-Malted most weekends when you can put your feet up.
Great to be reading your input again after keeping your head down.
When the world appears to be spinning around out of control, I find moving one foot off the bed and placing it firmly on the floor helps a lot. Downing a further medicinal cure will not make our headaches go away any sooner unfortunately.
saude. wma
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
ref #126
The myth that Anericans don't know much about the outside world is just that a myth.
Prime example the ignorance of the protesters in Europe who not only blame just Israel but want to burn jews.
Many places that American would go into untillrecently did not require a passport.
That was more economic than lack of desire.
Europeans have their own stereotypes there were against Bush v before 9/11 because he was from Texans
With the exception of our unwillingness to be bi or trilingual American are far more worldly and more knowledgible than most Europeans.
Complain about this comment
Ms Marbles,
Maybe you could start here,or google U-6 unemployment BLS...e.g.Hmmmmmm
ed
Complain about this comment
138 - ED
Check this link about Scottish independence
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/scotland/1912478/Support-for-Scottish-independence-slumps.html
"A poll conducted for The Daily Telegraph by YouGov – the most in-depth analysis yet of attitudes to constitutional change – shows that only 19 per cent of Scots would support independence in a three-option referendum. Nearly three quarters backed keeping a devolved Parliament, either with its present powers or with more responsibilities. "
Obviously this was only a poll, not a referendum, but statistically it is unlikely to be so far wrong that a referendum would produce a nasty surprise.
It is commonly accepted that the massive SNP gains over the last few years were a direct result of a general dislike of New Labour and its policies, not a surge of support for the more extreme measures proposed by Mr Salmond.
They have their devolved parliament and most are happy with that.
Complain about this comment
I can't believe how lazy Justin Webb is
His article is only a few paragraphs long which is based on a article from another web site.
The actual article is a pointless as it wholly based on a highly dubious subject which may or may not have any relevance on elections as both the candidates policies were partically the same.
In the article link the author uses the good old line of a few statistics the author's so lazy that a single referance or scource for the figures aren't even giving (and I'm sure that he would pie-charts and bar charts with lots to colour as great filler aswell if he could.)
This is a really elemantory mistake which even a pupil at a school would be giving out to for making and rightly so.
This article was like it was written by an intoxicated aspirational rooky blogger at half two in the morning who was kicked out of bed by the girlfriend so he decides to write a blog instead not by a
so-called sober alert "professional" or so-called "journalist" - if a pupil made at school would they would be scoulded and rightly so.
The US election as most elections in the world are not based on policies but on image , personlities, soundbities catchphrases i.e. flavour of the month and most importanly - spin
The author proceeds to go on a tangent which he makes all these assumptions about issuse which may or may not exist and then goes on to pigeon-hole different races and people on there socio-economical background to futher justify his thesis.
The fundmental problem with all of these articles is that so-called "journalist" or "commenters"
(aka they couldn't get a proper so job so the got a handy number getting paided a pile of money giving there opinions)
They make up a theory about an issuse most of which are non-issuses events
(like the so-called "race row" in big brother)
and then they fit the event around the story to suit there ideology.
For example just say Obama didn't win the 2008 US Presidental election they would all be bring out the old "Bradly effect" (remember that spin word that the media loved to use!)
saying that America wasn't "ready" for a black president or that America is actually racist not that people just prefared the other candidate
Basically the fit the views about the events that happen (i.e.
they basically make it up as they go along)
So the emperoer has no clothes ah well if you can't beat them I might aswell join them and jump on the bangwagon and hope for the best that the wheels don't come off the bangwagon
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"Now, this is kind of personal, and if it offends I'm sorry, that's not the intent. But here goes: if you have, or should be so lucky to, reproduce, would it bother you if your son or daughter would marry a manga cake, or an East Indian, or . . . ?
No offense taken .
My daughter is married to a young man who is Italian- American
My dauhter's mother was not an Italian -American but a Southerner of Welsh, Irish , English and Native American ancestory.
My son is not married . He can marry whomever he likes . Its his life not mine .
I would hope that it would understood that the immigrant story is not about a connection to the old country but the shared experince of beng in a group of people who have left for the New World where those experiences veer from the former ancestoral nation and become unique to the immigrant group that has come to the United States.
For example , some have commented on the Afrrican -Americans as being distinct as a group from the Africans in Africa today.
I agree, but those three or four hunderd years of unique experiences as people of African descent in America creates its own shared identification and culture rich in fabric and content as any other including mine .
I have been to Italy, speak the language poorly ,struggle with the pronunciation but oddly enough ,(my spanish is much better)when locals saw my last name they would look at me quizzically and want to know why the Americano had a very Italian surname .
They are Italians and I am an Italian- American two different things.
My wife is as she likes to remind me, British ,
born and raised in the Midlands . Her ancestors go back to the dawn of time (so she claims in the British Isles ), she thinks the whole ethnic thing is silly as she sees me as a Amercan through and through.
She thinks it odd that on Christmas the family still makes Italian food alongside the
traditional American fare.
Now the table has childern of the generations with German, English and Hungarian and Irish names with some French Canadian thrown in but we do try to still honor the folks fro the Old Country with some very good recipies that have been passed down the generations. My wife has brought the Christmas crackers from England and we have added that to the mix each Christmas.
Complain about this comment
Why does the moniter allow comments which are wholly unrelated to Justin Webb's blog be published?
It is highly irriating and does not contribute to the overall discussion
Complain about this comment
Ref 143
"The myth that Anericans don't know much about the outside world is just that a myth."
Obviously, there are a lot of well educated Americans who have either traveled extensively or shown an interest about other cultures, but to deny that there is a lot of ignorance, ambivalence and outright antagonism towards other cultures is disingenous.
A large segment of our population would have trouble finding the Persian Gulf on a map if asked, and many have a very distorted sense of historical reality of anything that happened outside the continental USA.
An example involves the insistence of one of my neighbors who is absolutely convinced my ancestry can not be from Spain because I am white, and who insists it is likely to be from Italy...or Portugal!
Complain about this comment
143 MagicKirin wrote:
"The myth that Anericans don't know much about the outside world is just that a myth.
. . .
Prime example the ignorance of the protesters in Europe who not only blame just Israel but want to burn jews."
You demonstrate that it is not a myth very concisely. Assuming you are in reality American and not simply being an agent provacateur.
And this European enmity against Texans? Sure, in company with thousands of others I went on (well-documented) demonstrations outside the Texas Embassy in London and burnt Confederate flags galore.
Now, we'll skip any debate, so on to your next prejudice, please. Better still, give us a list and get them all out into the open quickly. You'll feel better for it, I'm sure.
Complain about this comment
re: 129 Guns,
One word: Depends
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
Complain about this comment
127 publiusdetroit
Rick Mercer is so very clever, although sometimes I am embarrassed by "Talking to Americans" as I know that even though they do not have a clue, they are just being kindhearted and not wanting to appear ill informed or rude. It can be absolutely hysterical though.
The Newfoundlanders, some of the best people in the world. My grandfather was a Newfie and though some people here deny their heritage, I am traditionally half and hour late, tend to exaggerate and tell complicated but (so I have been told) amusing stories. All as you must know, Newfie traits.
Most Canadians have a fabulous sense of humour (well in the east anyway). I don't know where it came from. Perhaps a lot of people thought it would be a lark to emigrate here! Like the Brits who disagreed with Queen Victoria's, "We are not amused."
Complain about this comment
Re: recession/depression
Technically, of course, a recession is just a contraction of GDP through at least 2 quarters. Economists (dismal sots that they are) regard it as a normal part of the business cycle.
If this is a depression, we'll be talking about it for a long, long time. That is, if we can still afford internet access, computers, electricity, etc.
I haven't seen the scale and scope of deflation, credit failure, unemployment, etc. that would indicate, thus far, we are experiencing anything other than a nasty recession. If the banks had kept failing, however, . . .
Then again, Canada is (again so far), in better shape than many of the other G8, and even the G20, countries.
I live in hope.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
Complain about this comment
151 British-ish
"And this European enmity against Texans? Sure, in company with thousands of others I went on (well-documented) demonstrations outside the Texas Embassy in London and burnt Confederate flags galore."
I applaud your use of sarcasm, but feel it is wasted on Magic.
However for the sake of the literalists I should point out that the Texas Embassy in London is a Tex-Mex restaurant in Trafalgar Square.
As an interesting aside ... although Texas was an independent republic for a few years in the 1840s between secession from Mexico and joining the Union, there was never a Texas Embassy in London, only a Texas Legation.
Only one European nation ever gave diplomatic status to Texas (and thereby hosted its Emabassy) and that was ..... (drum roll) .... FRANCE!
Also Magic (143) - Europeans have nothing against Texans .... many people dislike George W Bush, but he isn't Texan, is he? He lives there, and was Governor of the state, but was born in Newhaven, Connecticut.
Complain about this comment
Stu, My post pointing out the date of your Torygraph poll and remarking that a load of water will pass over the weir before Gordo has to see just how high a dead feline can bounce seems to have been deemed immoderate by the Mods (who are as Gods) I also noted that "It is accepted by most..." is a rhetorical device of dubious merit...
Ah well
ed
Complain about this comment
Zugcanton,
Too much self-analysis can make you go blind....Complain about this comment
Re: Hyphenated Americans
This isn't the first conversation on this topic I've heard, and every time it strikes me what a big transformation has taken place in this country.
The first group to adopt a hyphenated name as their primary name was the African-Americans. The reason, though, has nothing to do with the common contemporary arguments, i.e., that it's an attempt to separate oneself from the rest of the country or that it's an attempt by the rest of the counrty to effect the same separation in a negative way. That's not where it came from.
What is now called Afircan-American went by other names previously: negro, black, colored, brown. All these names had one thing in common: they referred to the ethnic group by skin color, the one attribute most associated with racism. Looking for a name that didn't emphasize their skin color, they noticed that other ethnic groups identified themselves by the country of their origin. So, they came up with "African-American" thinking it in the same vein as someone with Italian ancestry identifying Italy as the "homeland," even though the separation in cultures may have become significant over the years.
Evidently, it worked. I've seen young African-Americans on TV saying that they don't want to be separated by their ethnic origin. They just want to be Americans, not somehow a lesser "hyphenated" American. I don't take this to mean they wish to return to being identified by their skin color.
I find this to be evidence of progress. Kind of funny, though.
Complain about this comment
#135
David,
It depends how you measure 'diversity'. Los Angeles claims to be diverse are based upon having fewer 'white' faces than other cities in the United States (based upon the last census).
That isn't a good measure. While LA is diverse for a regional US City, the diversity is represented by very large numbers of a small number of ethnic groups, predominantly Mexican and Chinese. It also includes a large African American community who are in most ways as American as I am, and who certainly have more in common with other Americans than Africans.
So how do we measure diversity? The best measure of diversity should be the number of nationalities and ethnic groups present in a city and who have an impact on the life of that city. There have been some limited academic studies on that basis, New York comes out top in the US.
Personally, I like the take out test. Drive through the city for an hour and count the different types of take out food you see. London beats even New York hands down for that. On a 15 minute walk (walk, mind. In LA you would have to drive) near my place in London recently I saw:
- Northern Indian
- Afghan
- Greek kebab
- Turkish Kebab
- Peruvian
- Polish
- Fish and Chips
- Hamburgers
- Southern Indian
- Balti indian
- Bangladeshi
- Thai
- Chinese
- Italian
- West Indian
- French
The last time I drove through LA (last year) the same test would have yielded:
- Burrito
- Chinese
- Burrito
- Burrito
- Hamburger
- Chinese
- Burrito
- Burrito
Not much diversity there, really. Although I will admit LA does have an awful lot of gangs. So it's got that going for it.
Demographer Sam
Complain about this comment
#133
Good for you Marby!
Still sounds kinky to me.
Deviant Sam
Complain about this comment
#149
Like that one?
Curious Sam
Complain about this comment
#151
Ish,
That's not a real Embassy, is it? If I recall correctly it's a restaurant near Trafalgar Square.
David must know it, it sells Burrito's.
Curious Sam
Complain about this comment
155. RomeStu:
Spoilsport!
Complain about this comment
and is there discrimination based upon the regions?
You're all a bunch of grockles .
Complain about this comment
and so am I
Complain about this comment
As far as isolation goes, it is true that there is
a large core of the population which is fairly
ignorant. Our bombs are smarter than many
of our children.
But, being a large country, we have just a few
worldly folk who can understand what is happening
overseas.
It's just too bad that none of them were in
the White House over the last 8 years.
Complain about this comment
ref #151
Look I was in Europe on business 4 times between Bush's 2000 election and 9/11.
I was in 3 of the major nations U.K, Germany and France not to mention a side trip to Switzerland.
Many people had a BDS towards Bush and the fact that he was identified as a Texan came up more than once.
But if you go the Israeli/Gaza HYS you will see the ignorance of many of the European posters.
Complain about this comment
158 AndyPost
"Looking for a name that didn't emphasize their skin color, they noticed that other ethnic groups identified themselves by the country of their origin. So, they came up with "African-American" thinking it in the same vein as someone with Italian ancestry identifying Italy as the "homeland,"
Just to stir the pot, and with no real axe to grind, but ....
Where does that leave a White South African (first Dutch settlement was 1652) who emigrates to the USA ..... or a Moroccan, Algerian, Tunisian etc?
Complain about this comment
Ed @ 156
The fact that the poll I linked to was in the Telegraph/Torygraph is irrelevant. It was not an editorial, but a YouGov poll.
I don't read the Telegraph - it just happened to have the information I was looking for.
Now I know that polls can be skewed, but please.
I'd love to know your take on the SNP boom. I may be wrong, but I always understood it to be an anti-Labour backlash - the Tories not being terribly popular up your way!
Complain about this comment
#143 Magic
The myth that Anericans don't know much about the outside world is just that a myth.
Prime example the ignorance of the protesters in Europe who not only blame just Israel but want to burn jews.
I think your second sentence contradicts the first there Magic. You really don't know much about Europe do you, but keep trying.
#159 Sam
Nice to see London being recognised as the multi-ethnic hub that it is. Personally, I'll go to an Italian restaurant every time.
#167 Magic
What's 'BDS' and 'HYS'? And did you see any Jews being burnt?
#169 Stu
Personally I take anything published by YouGov with a pinch of salt as it's purely internet based and people get paid (though a small amount) to fill in the questionnaire.
Complain about this comment
160, Sam.
But I rule out balconies.
Complain about this comment
167 - Magic
The only person who gets burnt in the UK is Guy Fawkes (Catholic) .... or if you're in the little town of Lewes they still burn an effigy of Pope Paul V (of the Borghese family) who was claimed by the English as the progenitor of the gunpowder plot.
I've never heard of any Jews being burnt.
Please enlighten me, so I can protest this grotesque practise.
Complain about this comment
dc 169
Thanks for the info on YouGov polls - I was unaware that people get paid for giving answers.
Pinch of salt now added to mix.
That said, I still don't believe much more than 20% of Scots are for full independence from the UK.
Complain about this comment
#159. SamTyler1969: "While LA is diverse for a regional US City, the diversity is represented by very large numbers of a small number of ethnic groups, predominantly Mexican and Chinese."
I can't imagine where you found that information! I suggest that Los Angeles is rather more than a "regional city" since it is the second largest conurbation in the United States. There are Korean, Indian, Thai, Armenian, Japanese, Pakistani, African, Peruvian, Salvadorian and others in large numbers. Indeed I was surprised recently to see a sign reading "Little Armenia" which bordered Hollywood itself.
"The last time I drove through LA (last year) the same test would have yielded (four cuisines)"
You could not have driven far since there are far, far more than that. Admittedly all spaced further apart, since that is the nature of Los Angeles. I'd say we have every style of cooking known to man - French, Jewish, Indian, German, South American (too many nations to list) South African, Armenian, Korean, all Mediterranean countries, Australian - even English! And this does not include regional American cooking either. Next time you visit, drive farther around.
As for gangs - New York has (and has had) more than its share - there never was a thought of writing a West Side Storyset in Los Angeles!
Complain about this comment
Ed, if a referendum shows that a majority of scots do not want independence, will you accept that, or will you demand further votes until you get the result you want?
I should add that the english would not be averse to scottish independence. We would lose a lot of labour MPs, with one Gordon Brown being top of the list. Be careful what you wish for!
Complain about this comment
158, Andy.
The term "African-American" is almost always used in print. When speaking, people (except for the socially self-conscious politically correct) say "black." Why? The former has six syllables, the latter only one.
You say that African-American is the only term for blacks that does not suggest skin color. While theoretically that might be true, when we hear the term we see the person as black in our mind's eye. So nothing is gained except for a clumsy hyphenation.
Complain about this comment
Stu,
In 1997, I returned from a journey South to be greeted by the "Welcome to Scotland" sign grafittized with "tory-free".I agree that there was/is much anti-NuLab sentiment which may have driven the SNP 'surge'. I expect it to re-emerge as the nature of the Depression and Gordo's contribution to it becomes more apparent. Myself, I have been of a Localist persuasion for a long time, and, should Scotland achieve independence, I shall be arguing for more autonomy for smaller local authorities.
Proportional representation has brought us a Scottish Parliament which may never again have to suffer the bane of majority government, and that's no bad thing.
Slainte!
ed
Complain about this comment
116, bethpa.
"I bet if I knew you in the real world I would find some things that are related to your Sicilian ancestry.."
I have thought this over very carefully. The only thing I can come up with is that, like a Sicilian woman, I control the money (although in the early years of marriage I didn't). Is this arrangement Sicilian custom, or am I better able to handle money than my husband? Both?
Complain about this comment
176, erratum.
"The former has six syllables, the latter only one."
Actually the former has seven syllables.
Complain about this comment
Ms Marbles,
Surely it's as politically correct to say "black" as "white"? Here we also have "Afro-Caribbean" "Afro-Asians", etc., etc.;-)
ed
Complain about this comment
180, Ed.
I differ with you on the political correctness of "African-American." But don't get me started on ethnic hyphenations. They have a self-conscious "hey, look at me" quality.
Complain about this comment
80, Ed.
I offer two adjectives that will never gain acceptance"
Blackish - an obvious black/white mixture.
Whitish - Arabs and such like.
Complain about this comment
#173 Stu
Your welcome. There's more info here.
FWIW I guess that the majority of Scots are weary of full economic independence. A case of better the devil you know.
Complain about this comment
Dceilar, "weary"? We've not had the opportunity since 1707....
Complain about this comment
Help me out here folks. Justin Webb stated at the beginning of this blog, "America alone embraces change in its fundamental makeup."
I've been trying to think of a time when we Americans "embraced" a change; at a fundamental basis.
There is a big change taking place in our economy. I do not see anyone embracing the concept that we are going to need to change the way we do business. A lot of fear and confusion. No embraces.
We have a newly elected President about to be sworn into office; but that has been taking place for over 200 years without shedding blood. No real fundamental change there.
Business is being conducted with new technology; but the entire world has been embracing the access to knowledge and communication that the technology.
When have "We the People..." embraced change?
Complain about this comment
Ed
After checking the wikidictionary, 'weary' is not a word I would have used - it means 'tired or fatigued' lol. 'Anxiety' would be better.
I think, despite the oil etc., that the majority of Scots prefer to be economically part of the Union
Complain about this comment
#180. Ed Iglehart wrote: "Surely it's as politically correct to say "black" as "white"?"
The currently accepted descriptive is African-American, which itself followed from the earlier Afro-American. It seems to change over time; "Black" (capitalised) was most acceptable at one time and in some parts may be still be so. In predominantly African-American neighbourhoods, the 'N' word appears to be agreeable among young men, but not for an outsider. The President-elect is of course literally African-American by heritage, but describing him as Black seems inappropriate. Just as other words go in and out of fashion, so does this, and it can be a very touchy matter.
I'm not at all sure that "white" is acceptable - on government forms it is frequently seen as Caucasian. The derivative "whitey" is considered to be offensive.
Complain about this comment
187, David.
There is a tendency to complicate the English language and to use terms that are less descriptive - rather like putting a glass wall between us and reality. The effect is for our language to lose color and vibrancy.
In writing I have held to certain principles. I use Anglo-Saxon in preference to words of Latin derivation when possible. Some people may circumnavigate the globe. I sail around the world. The last gives you a feeling that the former does not.
I am not an advocate of political correctness. It often involves deception and hypocracy. I am not a senior citizen. I am an old lady. I often call myself a geezeress.
Complain about this comment
#174,
David,
Not being a national or international center of anything, that makes LA regional (Unlike DC (Government), New York (Financial) or Chicago (Commodities). Hollywood is too small to count, even if you include the porn industry. Come to think of it, I recant. LA is the global capital of porn.
As for the diversity you mention, that still pales to insignificance compared to New york or London, which each have communities from almost every country on Earth, more so in London because of the influx of Eastern Europeans. LA's claim is still based on the color of faces on the street, not the diversity of communities represented.
Apart from porn, no where else in the world produces such diversity.
Demographer Sam
Complain about this comment
ref #170
://www.prisonplanet.com/uk-europe-hit-with-riots-over-israels-gaza-campaign.html
The protester said they wanted to put Jews back in the ovenamong other hate speech.
The question of their ignorance none of these protesters criticize Hamas for firing missles into Israel.
Probaly because they think Jewish lives are not worth much. That includes Ken Livingston and Annie Lenox, two supporters of terrorists.
BDS is Bush Derangement Syndrome
Marbles suffers from LDS Liberman Derangement Syndrome.
Complain about this comment
re: 187 DC, Ed
I'm not at all sure that "white" is acceptable - on government forms it is frequently seen as Caucasian. The derivative "whitey" is considered to be offensive.
I prefer "pink."
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
Complain about this comment
Re: cultural diversity. London? NYC? LA? Stuff and nonsense!
Great Wiki entry here.
Toronto's a great town. I go down whenever I can. You should come up (or over, as the case may be).
Caribana is a particular hoot.
Cheers an' chillin',
Canadian Pinko
Complain about this comment
#189. SamTyler1969: "Not being a national or international center of anything, that makes LA regional . . .Hollywood is too small to count, even if you include the porn industry."
Since when is Hollywood not the international centre of the film industry? Add in television and the recording industries and except for live theatre, Los Angeles is the creative and entertainment capital of the world. It is not to be so readily dismissed.
"Apart from porn, no where else in the world produces such diversity."
About which, most of it is located away from Hollywood proper, in the San Fernando Valley. But what kind of "diversity" is there in porn? It's either boy-girl, girl-girl or boy-boy. Throw in a bit of S&M, but even so, four permutations doesn't seem particularly "diverse" to me.
Next time you're way out West, try to see more of our city and county which has 10,363,850 residents as opposed to Greater London's estimated 8,200,000. I think you'll find the City of the Angels far more diverse than you have been led to believe.
Complain about this comment
192, chrono.
I know many Iranian who went to Canada because they couldn't get into the U.S. When they finally had the chance to move south of the border, they found they liked Canada and decided to stay. I have been to Toronto. I could see myself living there if it were 20 degrees warmer.
Complain about this comment
192, chronophobe.
Why are you afraid of time. Are you in jail?
Complain about this comment
#193
David,
The film industry is, economically, too small to really count for much on the global scale. And is based in Hollywood, not LA.
Speaking of which, the variations LA offers includes midgets. Amongst other things. A quick search on the international interweb should give you an idea of the stuff your home city produces.
BTW Bollywood makes more movies. And they have better dance routines.
Critic Sam
Complain about this comment
Marbles,
Funny you should say that. Last summer, I bought a suit jacket from an Iranian in Vegas. We got to talking, and it turns out his brother lives down the street from me here in Ottawa. The guy in Vegas was selling suits part-time, while working as a sessional lecturer a UNLV.
He's now landed a gig at the University of Ottawa, and I see him around the 'hood on a regular basis.
As to climate, the cold is not so bad, and the summers are hot. We in Ottawa regard Toronto as borderline banana belt.
Of course, if you can't actually come, you could always read Michael Ondaatje's book, In the Skin of a Lion, my own favourite book about Toronto, and a great novel.
Cheers,
Canadian Pinko
Complain about this comment
re: 195 Marbles,
Why are you afraid of time. Are you in jail?
LOL ... not yet.
It's like this:
"Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow creeps in this petty pace from day to day to the last syllable of recorded time. And all our yesterdays have lighted fools the way to dusty death. Out, out brief candle. Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more. It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
Act V, Scene V, MacBeth
Chronos is a scary dude, sometimes. I struggle to make my peace with him.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
Complain about this comment
134. At 07:01am on 11 Jan 2009, TimothyR444:
"The housing market is in a true depression: the worst in the history of the US. But the rest of the economy is in a severe recession. It is not just playing with words. It is a description of reality."
Sure, the great depression was worse than this. What we are currently in doesn't seem to be getting better anytime soon. I keep hearing "analysts" say the worst is over, or it's almost over. However, the news just keeps getting worse. I watched something on 60 mins a few weeks ago and they had some economic expert on there who said this is just the first wave in a 3 part collapse of the economy and housing bubble/ construction bubble. Apparently, he predicted this one quite some time ago. Only time will tell.
Complain about this comment
#196. "The film industry is, economically, too small to really count for much on the global scale."
Recording companies, TV production count for nothing? They influence virtually every country in the world - as for 'Bollywood' (a flattering reference to original), more is not always better.
"And is based in Hollywood, not LA."
Wrong again. Except for one, none of the other major studios are in Hollywood itself and some never were - MGM (now Sony) in Culver City, Universal in North Hollywood and Los Angeles County, Warner Bros in Burbank, 20th Century-Fox in Century City and Disney in Burbank. All in Los Angeles County. Paramount is the last remaining studio in Hollywood itself; Columbia which at one time was at Sunset and Gower (and still used by independents as Sunset-Gower Studios is now a part of Sony in Culver City. The contributions of "Hollywood" to world culture far outweigh the financial considerations of other towns.
Complain about this comment
159. SamTyler1969
No Lebanese, Moroccan or Persian (I hesitate to mention anything Iranian with old Magick about)?
I'm surprised. Got Spanish too about the same distance from my flat.
(Though one of the Starbucks a little further away may be closed for a day or two, but we don't count them . . .)
It is still a fairly civilised city (cue Magick) to live (and walk) in, isn't it? It's just that what I read here sometimes makes me wonder if I stepped through a window opened up with a Subtle Knife . . .
Complain about this comment
American power stems from core values embodied in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence and in its early history and kind of men and women who were America's founders. Those values never vary. They are the legacy we Americans all inhereted as birthrights. They are independent of demographics or popular culture of the moment in any era. Justin Webb will see that in his son born here whose values will be different from his own and his siblings'. Often this leads people who brought their psychological baggage with them from elsewhere to extreme frustration, even anger. No other people on earth can duplicate that legacy. That is why America's ultimate ascendency is virtually guaranteed forever.
Complain about this comment
Sam, I suspect that you wandered off into
the wrong part of town. Perhaps your culinary
experience was like this?
We're glad that you made it out.
And, Ed, here I always thought that other things
made you go blind.
Complain about this comment
#202, dream on, MAII. Even a country with
ideals as strong as ours can be driven into
the ground by poor leadership, an item with
which we have been amply supplied the last
few years.
Complain about this comment
199. ladycm wrote:
"What we are currently in doesn't seem to be getting better anytime soon. I keep hearing "analysts" say the worst is over, or it's almost over. However, the news just keeps getting worse."
Well, I don't see much (nor I think do analysts around the rest of the world) 'embracing of change' there.
A few hundred billion dollars to banks (and investment houses that transmogrified into banks so they could grab some of the cash) so they can buy each other and still pay bonuses, a few billion to the car makers so they can put on their annual jamboree in Detroit for free, is not a solution to either a recession or a depression.
Nor do calls for the return of manufacturing capacity to the USA from abroad mean anything. Once gone in the pursuit of large profits from cheap goods, it's gone.
The whole business model promulgated in the US over the last 20-30 years is going to have to change. It is not going to be possible for any business to maintain its profitablity or share price or quarterly earnings by borrowing any more. Individual profligacy has little to do with it in comparison to the way business has been persuaded to borrow money it cannot repay.
As one economist pointed out: if you finance your company from earnings and assets, in a depression you can still make things and sell them; just less--as much or as little as you can afford.
If you finance it through borrowing, as has been the Business-School led fashion, you still have to pay the interest even when you can only earn a tenth of what is owed, and you go bankrupt.
That is what has happened to
Ford and GM. In practical terms, they have been bankrupt for years, and in the end, the US government is going to have to pay the debt for them. And it will happen to countless others.
Frankly, all I see is the American media seeing it as its duty to keep up that good ol' American optimism. And a general clasping of hands in prayer saying 'God will provide'.
Countries don't get out of recessions that way; that way they end up in depressions. There has been three months of inanition in the US, and in the meantime, the rest of the world has been burning the midnight oil working out how to get out from under and how to separate itself from the US's mostly self-inflicted economic disasters in future.
(Whether MAII--whose new post here represents nothing more than helpless optimism based on myth--and others want to believe that or not.)
I do find all the grasping at straws I read simply ludicrous. First, it's Alaskan oil and natural gas and offshore drilling that will be the fix. Then it's cheap oil from the same 'unstable' states Americans wanted to get away from. Now it's all going to be sorted by an increase in the birthrate of young ethnic minorities?
Give me strength . . .
Complain about this comment
204. gunsandreligion wrote:
#202, dream on, MAII.
Funny that; I've just woken up from a dream of long caravans of SUV's and RV's with shovels and pickaxes on their roofs leaving Manhattan, Wall Street, Detroit and Phoenix* to start a new life in log cabins in Wyoming and Oregon fortified by the values of the pioneers and copies of Emerson, Thoreau and Tom Paine while living off squirrel pie. . .
(*Did anybody hear the World Service report on the effect of the recession on that city? Where a new suburban development of 40,000 people has no shopsbecause the developers have abandoned it?)
Complain about this comment
197, chrono.
"As to climate, the cold is not so bad, and the summers are hot. We in Ottawa regard Toronto as borderline banana belt."
It depends on one's perspective. Did I say I would like Toronto if it were 20 degrees warmer? Make that 30. I don't even like New York winters. North Carolina is about right. And beautiful too.
Complain about this comment
206, british-ish, the next time I'm down around
Phoenix, I'll have to photograph the new ghost
town. I could be the new Dorothy Lange.
Since I live in Steinbeck country, I'm hoping
that they're not all headed my way. Have you
ever heard of a stockbroker picking vegetables?
Complain about this comment
208. gunsandreligion wrote:
"Have you ever heard of a stockbroker picking vegetables?"
I've heard they're very good at growing scams (which I presume are some genetically engineered variant of the yam?) and selling them in markets. They should be able to manage.
Complain about this comment
gunsandreligion, the United States has survived the collapse of its financial markets and depression before and far far worse. Compared to the Civil War for example this is not nearly as bad. I think it was John D. Rockerfeller who said that anyone who bets against the United States will go broke. It was true then, it is true today. Compared to other countries around the world, our problems are not nearly as bad. Wherever you look, things seem far worse. We may not be as comfortable and financially secure as we've felt recently for awhile but this too will pass. If you were clever, you'd find opportunity in it. The federal government is about to spend a trillion dollars on a stimulus package. Why not spend some time figuring out how to earn some of it for yourself. That's what they want you to do.
Complain about this comment
210:
There's rather more to it than merely grabbing a slice of a trillion dollars for yourself.
Complain about this comment
211, british-ish, right on target! Here we have
a society which has been living in La-La land
for a long time, being given a free pass to
print money because the world had no other
engine of growth. That's not true anymore,
of course.
Some other commentators on this blog have
accused me of jingoism for suggesting that
it was a good thing that we always get this
free pass to print our way out of debt.
But, it's actually a bad thing, because without
the accountability of the market to discipline
public expenditures, politicians will tax and spend,
borrow and spend, or just plain spend their
way to buy votes.
Bush was bad; Obama is more of the same,
just in a different way. I see it in his rabid
supporters with their unrealistic expectations
of what Big Government can do.
Nonetheless, British-ish, because the man
upstairs has a special place in his heart for us
foolish Americans, we will recover. But, not before
we see how foolish we have been.
Complain about this comment
And here is a New Year's greeting by
Fred Thompson, a man who I thought
I would never agree with upon the
economy.
Complain about this comment
This thread has gotten better as it's gotten older. Congratulations!
I used to work in Hollywood (not in the business, however). We once had a saying in America, "Go west, young man!" For almost ninety years the most hopeful dreamers, the hopeless optimists, and the unrestrained egotists have gone west to Hollywood from all parts of America in pursuit of fame, glory, and riches on the silver screen.
But ninety-five percent or more of these dreamers in each generation have failed to 'make it' there. And Los Angeles is as far west as you can go. So they have stayed there, having no place else that can sustain their dreams, year by year adding to the swelter of disappointment and dwindling hope that is the real atmosphere on this part of L.A., the real face of Hollywood. It is an ultimate, no-where-to-go-from-here disappointment that is so thick and palpable that it oozes from the walls of the buildings, the sidewalks and the streets, and mixes with the glitter and the glam and the shattered stars - I am persuaded this is what they make the sidewalks from in Hollywood - go and look for yourself.
KScurmudgeon, escapee from Lalaland.
Complain about this comment
205. At 03:37am on 12 Jan 2009, british-ish:
In short, I totally agree. Our strategy has to change in this country. All Americans need to find a sustainable way of living within their means, including the government and our big corporations. America is in bad shape right now, and we need a fix. We have got to get it together and quick or this "recession" is going to get a lot worse. We can no longer be the country that does everything on credit. I think we could make it through but, why should we suffer anymore than we have already? I do think our government is going to have to invest in us though through some sort of public works program which inevitably will get us in a deeper hole. There used to be a billboard in Seattle that had the government debt by the second. I don't know if it's still there but, I know it's a lot more than it was the last time I saw it. Our officials need to just get something done. Stop arguing over little stuff and just get something done.
Complain about this comment
#214. KScurmudgeon: "So (the dreamers) have stayed (in Hollywood), having no place else that can sustain their dreams, year by year adding to the swelter of disappointment and dwindling hope that is the real atmosphere on this part of L.A., the real face of Hollywood. It is an ultimate, no-where-to-go-from-here disappointment that is so thick and palpable that it oozes from the walls of the buildings, the sidewalks and the streets."
Hollywood the dream is far more than Hollywood the place, the latter a none-too-attractive part peopled by tourists, tourists, tourists. The literary merit of your post does not reflect the reality. Of course, dreamers could always go to New York to get that break on Broadway. My guess is that 95% of wannabes fail as badly in the Big Apple as they do in Los Angles, where at least an aspiring player can be a walk-on, a tour guide or a performer in the thriving small theatre venues or at the several theme parks where live performers are employed. Life is invariably disappointing, but no more so in "Hollywood" than elsewhere.
Complain about this comment
214, KScurmudgeon, there is always that 5%!
And, in any one's life there is only one way to
find out if you would have won.
Complain about this comment
Jagdish Bhagwati has accused Obama of old bad protectionist ideas, such as auto bailouts, which raises parallels with the 1930 Smoot-Hawley tariff.
FWIW I think Obama can walk the thin line in balancing free trade and using subsidies.
Complain about this comment
Brit,
Isnt' that borrowed from somewhere sort of 'terroristic'?;-)
ed
Complain about this comment
#201
Ish,
I'm afraid my place there is in one of the less diverse parts of town, close to the City. It is one of the most civilized places to walk in the world, though Paris and Rome give it a run for it's money.
Whistful Sam
Complain about this comment
Brit,
Got Henry, gotRalph, Got
Wee Johnny, but you left out a copy of the Whole Earth Catalog!
;-)
ed
Complain about this comment
#202 et al
Marcus has a point, and we shouldn;t slap him down for being positive (for once). The values embodied in the constitution do provide America with it's flexibility. He is of course wrong when he thinks that they are unique, drawing as they do on the Oxford Articles and Magna Carta, amongst many others. The founding Fathers were in a hurry and did a lot of 'research' in drafting those documents.
I would opine that what we really have is the Primary system for selecting candidates. It lets us as a nation turn on a dime, with the nation involved. It's easy now to see just how awful the policies of the last 8 years have been. Economic, Foreign, Trade and Fiscal policy have all helped to bring us where we are today.
Thankfully as a nation we see it, and with January 20th just round the corner we can look forwards to a change of direction. It may take a couple of years, macro economic changes often take at least that long to be felt, but change we will. America will continue to be a superpower for the forseeable future.
Optimist Sam
Complain about this comment
#203
Guns,
That was Detroit, wasn't it?
Go Iggles.
Happy Sam
Complain about this comment
#200
David,
So not in LA then? Were not when they started, then moved somewhere else . . . . .
Geographer Sam
Complain about this comment
As an aside, it was in New York that I first learned to walk, having largely grown up with wheels virtually attached to my rear end. I discovered the East and West warehouse/dock districts, midtown, Central Park, Harlem, the Village, lower East Side, and, most glorious of all Lower Manhattan on Sunday - in those days it was like coming upon a pristine world somehow totally cleared of its inhabitants - pure science fiction....Later I got bikes (sequentially stolen), and learned the joys of one-way streets (going the 'wrong' way) - beware pedestrians (who look the 'right way'), but able to stare down motorists.
Later, I made much of my 'fortune' as a peddler selling smoking devices in the Wall Street area, but that's another story....
;-)
ed
Ah, the joys of youth!
Complain about this comment
News of our demise have been greatly exaggerated! Yes, we are having serious economic problems, most of them self-inflicted, but we will bounce back and will continue to shug along for a while.
It is important to note that the problems we are having are self-inflicted and, consequently, we can overcome them if we decide to change the way we see ourselves and abandon our destructive habits.
We can't continue living on credit, shipping jobs and technology overseas to increase profit margins, ignoring science because of religious considerations, engaging in crusades without paying for them, and expecting everything our little hearts desire without paying for what we want.
We will remain the dominant military superpower for at least the remainder of this century, but I expect China to become the dominant industrial superpower within the next 3 or 4 decades with a GDP that will surpass ours; and I expect India to lead the way in scientific research and development. I would not be surprised if the euro becomes the preferred currency for trade within a couple of decades.
Complain about this comment
Dominick,
Somehow, I doubt this can be stated with such apparent confidence. I suspect you are also being rather optimistic/pessimistic on the timescale (3 or 4 decades) for the ascendancy of China and India - more like one to three, I reckon, and the Euro was on Saddam's horizon (which led to his downfall)...Salaam, etc.
ed
Complain about this comment
(#147 Reposted)
We shall see in due course. "it is commonly accepted..." is an old rhetorical device....though in this case there is some truth in your summary. Brown's (and NuLab's) current 'bounce' is likely to resemble the well-known deceased feline before too long as the true depth of the Depression becomes more evident.Stu, Your poll from the Torygraph,
Yours in [link removed becausee mods said it 'failed' ]Schadenfreude,
ed
Complain about this comment
Re: #159 from Sam.
I can well believe your experience of the variety of cuisine available in London, and I think it does reflect the level of diversity quite well. I count myself lucky that I live on a road in which over 20 different countries are represented (including most if not all that you mention), on a stretch of no more than half a mile. All of this in the "rural" city of Oxford no less.
On hyphenation and the difference between US and UK attitudes to ancestry, going back only 2 or 3 generations I have a heady mix of English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, French, German and Dutch. Not many people I know go to the trouble of publicising all of this about themselves or attempting to categorise themselves in this way. If pressed I think most would go with English, although English patriotism has been largely tainted by the BNP and all they represent.
Complain about this comment
Ref 227, Ed
"Somehow, I doubt this can be stated with such apparent confidence."
My opinion, regarding the probability of the USA remaining the dominant military superpower for many decades to come is not based solely on our huge budget allocations to military research and development, or our tendency to embark in crusades to solve ideological problems, but on the decision of likely foes such as Russia and China to allocate most of their expenditures and devote most of their efforts to industrial and social programs designed to improve their standard of living and economic might.
Our focus on military might will give us a pre-eminent position in world affairs for many decades to come, but it will be enough to sustain us forever. Clearly, we would be much better off if we invested in education, Research and development, infrastructure, and the creation of new industries, but those endeavors require sacrifice and a level of commitment we lack at the moment.
Obviously, we can use our military superiority to remove threats to the status quo or those that challenge our interests, such as Saddam Hussein, but it is troubling to think that such approach may become the only option left to remain on top in years to come.
The greatest threat to our future is, of course, a total absence of leadership; but in fairness to all the recent occupants of the White House and Congress their policies and actions reflect the desires of those that voted for them. We have nobody to blame for our woes but ourselves.
Complain about this comment
226, DV, it's quite probable that in a multi-polar
world we could fill out the niche of global balancer,
much as Britain did during the 19th century.
We have the advantage of being far away from
everybody, and, assuming that we return to
our core values and don't preach to everybody,
we could even be well-liked, and hence, trusted.
But, the era of being a superpower is a left-over
from the mid-twentieth century, and not likely
to return anytime soon.
As far as our economic mess goes, it is not
something that we can fix by turning a switch.
We're having a very difficult time adjusting
to the 21st century.
The American people are going to have to
return to core values that produce wealth,
and after all, we get the politicians that we
deserve.
On the other hand, I believe that we will remain
a "Great Power" in this new multipolar world.
As Justin and Sam have pointed out, only the
US among large countries has the ability to
change course rapidly, and to assimilate other
cultures through immigration on a large scale.
My mother used to tell me that our strength
came through our ability to "borrow" from other
countries, although I don't think that she meant
it as a matter of finance.
Complain about this comment
Ref 213 gunsandreligion
Fred Thompson did a fairly nice job of recapping the issues of our economic failure. Of course, by the time of his podcast, we have heard these issues over and over and over again. It is certain he had a good time playing the pointing-finger poohba. He's an engaging actor with time on his hands. Not much of a leader, though.
What Mr. Thompson failed to do was offer any new direction for getting us out of the well identified crisis. He did not offer anything much in his short, Presidential bid other than criticism.
I will agree that throwing money still wet from the presses at the problem is not the best solution. It is the only solution the current government has tried so far; with dubious results.
Do we really need anymore finger-pointing; no matter how well read the script? We need inspired, dynamic solutions. Let's work the problem and let the historians figure out where to place the blame.
Complain about this comment
205 british-ish
Really very good comments - and just so true. The "God will provide" bit gave me a good chuckle. The lack of controls on the
'bale out billions' is a disgrace. Caps on salaries, and low ones at that, with no bonuses permitted, should have been part of the plan. You are right, this is no way to get out of a mess. It will exacerbate the crisis.
Watching stock markets and the performance of mutual funds, one gets the impression that a mob of poorly educated airheads are running the show, reacting like drug-induced juveniles to every bit of flimsy hope - no matter how flimsy the hope. Talk about "grasping at straws" - as you put it!
And upon what is the 'hope' based? Little to nothing. People continue to be laid off. Companies close down and those that continue contract because in most cases demand is low. Even the well-run and sound companies like J.P. Morgan have got to be feeling the pinch. So upon what are investment upsurges of base? The bale-outs from government? - with taxpayers' money and borrowing after all - or hope of what they will realize? Utterly crazy!
I believe that what Ladycm heard from some economist, i.e. that things could sink even lower, is something I regard a strong possibility. Considering this a good time to invest "because values are low" (as some scheisters tell us), is something concerning which I haven't an ounce of confidence and right now would rather recommend guaranteed investment. And I'm not so sure that if things get really bad, governments won't suddenly regard our registered investments easy pickings for them, so maybe this is a good time to forgo tax-sheltered investment until the smoke clears.
210 MarcusAurelius11
I feel totally disinclined to feel despondent
over the present economic situation, but I think you possibly misjudge how bad things could become. Your "far, far worse" comment is a distinct possibility, and will be so if these stimulus packages don't bale out the auto manufacturers and financial institutions that in most cases appear to continue being run by the same numbskulls who got them in a mess in the first place. Wrong people, wrong structures, and from what I see, among top management no moral values to guide - unless 'greed' and 'mindless insensitivity' equates to values. In that regard just think of AIG. Then the unions are in la la land. Talk about dementia at the top!
Complain about this comment
NPR has started a series today about racism in Europe. Two can play at that game. Among the many major advantages America has over other countries is that it recognizes the importance of making the best use of its most valuable asset, human capital. No other country comes remotely as close to achieving this goal as America does, in fact they don't even recognize that they have a problem. So if a Bill Gates came along in Germany and he happened to be a Turk or of Turkish descdent, there would be no German Microsoft. If a Steve Jobs came along in France and he happened to be North African or of North African descent, there would be no French Apple Computer Company. It isn't perfect here yet but Obama's election is proof positive that the country has been moving in the right direction for a long time. No objective observer can deny that there have been major improvements over the last several decades and it appears they are continuing. What an enormous advantage that is, well along on solving a problem the competition doesn't even recognize it has let alone made progress on.
Dominick Villa, your expectations will be dashed. India and China have problems so great, so tied up in the deepest strands of their culture that they will never really catch up to the US. China has paid a huge price for its progress so far, its entire aging population dependent on export of cheap manufactured goods requiring little skill to produce is the world's biggest toxic waste dump which has poisoned much of its population already. And corruption doesn't get any worse anywhere. The Chinese government knows it which is why they sometimes execute corrupt people but by and large, it changes nothing. Just look at the melamine catastrophe. One day the words "Made In China" may mean "poisoned, do not touch." India has dismissed the value of most of its population including women, Moslems, and untouchables just to mention a few. Watch what happens when their export markets in the US and Europe dry up in the coming depression.
Whatever else you can say about President Bush, there was not another foreign terrorist attack on the US after 9-11-01. I attribute that attack BTW to the security blunders of all three branches of government during the Clinton Administration. 9-11 was their legacy. We'll see if Obama is as successful at fulfilling government's number one priority, providing an effective defense against attack. I will judge him based largely on that most important of all government obligations.
Hard times ahead. Americans seem to have forgotten that this is part of life because they have been so comfortable for so long. Time for a taste of the real world. It's long overdue. It only makes America stronger each time.
Complain about this comment
Dominick,
You may be right, but I remember that for a long time it was fear of US might (and perceived threat) which was a major driver of USSR militarism.....might they not similarly become fearful in the future, particularly as we seem intent upon not learning any lessons from history? And with the benefit of their enhanced industrial capacity, a new arms race is hard to rule out.I do think your timescales are over-generous. Besides we must factor in the end of oil
;-)
ed
Complain about this comment
Marcus # 210
Surprised to see you have emerged from your shelter, cave or hide-out with a smidgin of optimism, albeit the future glories for just the USA.
FYI, both on the blog, as in our world, it is the time of the rat, [apologies to british-ish and Ed's furry friend] which has just a few days more to run. Disaster, confrontation, destruction, a Yang year for all, the first of the new 12 years, in a 60 year cycle.
I would explain that your "hero", Obama, was also born in a Yin Ox year, [starting the end of the month], but if I quote another good USA Yin Ox day happening you hold dear - Declaration of Independence, 4 july 1776, is there any hope you would tell me Obama will attempt to rewrite it? :- The Ox day Pearl Harbour, 7 Dec 1941 I feel is more your meat and potatoes.
Unfortunately although the "being clever", and the "figuring it out" is part of the equation of obtaining a slice of any cake on offer, an Ox year means work, work and more work to achieve any country or individual goals, where construction, re-construction and healing is necessary for consolidation, eventually returning towards the top after 8 years of sliding down the snake to square one. Perhaps we should work together to get Barack his full 8 years, followed by Mrs O for another 8 and then one of the Miss Os to follow. 24 years of Democrat success before the Repubs arrange their new game-face to spoil the party. Anything to keep you, David and the ladies happy.
If the above are insufficient for you to re-attain your usual pessimism, may I point out that the Peoples Republic of China, to whom you are indebted, and your favourite waste of money NATO celebrate their 60th birthdays too. I do hope the above examples which obviously include the 5 basic elements in this horoscope - metal, wood, earth, water and fire will rekindle the last for you, which has been sadly missing of late. We have on the blog now, nobody to blame but ourselves and each other.
ps. To get your 2009 Feng Shui energies correctly balanced, and prevent misfortune, do not forget to place a metal wind chime at your Northern door. You never know what can blow in... From Canada?
Complain about this comment
232, publius, I agree with what you have said,
but the fact remains: the financial bailout money
appears to have been released with no controls,
so we don't know where it went.
I could give half a dozen examples of government
waste and ineptitude that could be eliminated,
thereby freeing up $800B that could be used
for some useful purpose, but of course, there
are piglets who wish to continue to feed at
the public trough.
The way to get through this is to tighten up
regulation and eliminate waste. I don't have
any confidence in either party to do either
one of those things.
The fault really lies with the American people,
who are so easily talked into Ponzi schemes,
like Social Security. Look at how they voted.
They didn't vote for financial responsiblity,
they voted for a tax cut.
Perhaps, when we are at rock bottom, we'll
figure it out.
Complain about this comment
236, waterman, I'm going to have to try the
wind chimes. I'm not brave enough to let
someone harpoon me with needles with a
questionable history (acupuncture), but
I do occasionally read a fortune cookie.
Since I got tired of getting bad fortunes, I
bought a batch down at the local discount
grocery store which are guaranteed to be
favorable ones. There's no sense leaving
the future to chance!
Complain about this comment
and, waterman, by the way, I'm glad that you're
not reading from the Mayan calendar!
Complain about this comment
92 lol kecsmer
" Which is your home, where do you live, where were born and you raised???"
lol.In my case I would find answering that question a challenge.
Many are in the same possition, they may be the ones that claim no hyphen or a few more hyphens .
Where are you most influenced by? may be more appropriate.
As a Brit who is not English,Welsh,Scottish,Irish,Manx,Jerseyean,and is a grockle
Complain about this comment
Ref 235
"I do think your timescales are over-generous."
We can always hope. The big question in my mind is not so much whether we lose our industrial and technical supremacy, and economic dominance, in one or three decades, but how are we going to react to the loss of our pre-eminent position in the world. Will we accept a shared superpower status with other nations gracefully, or will we try to retain our sole superpower status by force?
The unlimited opportunities and huge wealth that attracted millions of people from throughout the world until a few decades ago are evaporating. Most of the immigrants that still come to our country are either Indian doctors trying to make a quick buck in a healthcare system driven by greed, or unskilled workers willing to work in fields we don't want to be in.
Hopefully, the emphasis in healthcare reform, education, infrastructure improvements, and development of new technologies that are the centerpiece of President-elect Obama's policies will make a difference, but I fear they will not be enough to correct the damage done by decades of greed, intellectual neglect, fiscal irresponsibility, cultural intolerance, and a pervasive vaccuum in leadership.
Complain about this comment
151 Britishish
Gherkin has read a lot of comments from one poster,Oops, that are not positive about Texas.
But then that person doesn't live in Texas.
"Texas a nice place to be from"
Is a comment I hear from Texans in Oregon.GW did them no favours, JR did, most Brits from an older generation remember the saga of Dallas,for better or for worse.
But it makes them seem oily to them that are on the for worse end.
We should not hold GW against them.
After all GW wasn't really a texan.
But they did vote him in despite some really bad report reading abilities.
I have several Nice texan friends but others I know are TOTALLY opposed to texas.
They think that texas should be alone if that is what they want.
They are ALL americans.
Complain about this comment
Ref 237 gunsandreligion
Well St. Gunnie; you are a voice of sanity.
When the household budget gets hit with an unexpected expense; we stop eating filet mignon and dig out the chicken soup recipes until revenues start jingling in the piggy bank again. There have been times that peanut butter sandwiches took the place of chicken soup, too.
Let's see...so many choices. Where do we start?
Maybe have the CIA and the FBI actually do the jobs they are chartered to handle so we can cut out the DEA, NSA, and all the other alphabetical agencies (many of them so hidden we are not aware of them). Agencies created to do the job when the proper agencies failed instead of correcting their failures by rewriting their charters where needed and have them work in conjunction for the security of our nation?
Complain about this comment
I find it hard to reason why someone who is 3rd 4th or even 5th generation American would still class themselves as Itailian - American, surly if you are born and bred in a place you are of that place e.g. America. I am British, but I would imagine if I went back long enough there would be all sorts thrown into the mix that is now me, but I am British.
If I moved to American I would still be British, but a Brit (not sure if I am allowed to say Brit as we are getting very uptight at the moment around the shortening of place names!) living in America any children I had there would be American with a British mother.
This hypenated carry on is finding its way into our way now, any forms you fill in you are asked are white - British / White - Other great to go around stating you are white other! British Asian or Indian Asian so on and so on.
#143 I am not aware of any burning or intended burning of Jews nor of any hatred towards Texas, maybe a little towards Mr George W Bush but certainly not against Texas!
Complain about this comment
236 watermanaquarius
"do not forget to place a metal wind chime at your Northern door. "
I'm intrigued. Is this true of everywhere? If so, as soon as the snow melts and I can open my northern door, I will rush right out and put up a metal (I guess that's important) wind chime.
Do the misfortunes come from the north? What does this mean for Canada? Russia, Santa Claus? Or as someone said many moons ago, Americans submarines hunting Russians under our (soon to be gone) ice cap? Please advise.
Complain about this comment
#243, publius, then, there is the farm bill. $265B worth
or pork, because 80% of it goes to big corporations
instead of the small family farms that it
is supposed to protect.
And, of course, the ethanol subsidy, which
has driven up the price of corn because
it subsidizes usage of corn kernels. We
should instead be giving tax breaks to
companies that are developing cellulosic
ethanol plants. But, gee whiz, guess who
carried several farm-belt states because
he supported the subsidy?
See, we have half-solved the problem already.
It's a pity that neither of us could get elected.
Complain about this comment
And, I forgot the oil depletion allowance.
We can't have those oil companies going
broke, now, can we?
Complain about this comment
watermanaquarius, I have not been hiding, I've been busy. Do you think I don't have better things to do with my time than waste it exchaning *&#^%$!* with your likes?
My optomism is for myself. I have developed some of the skills that will be needed to repair the infrastructure of America's public and private sector in the near future, the crumbling infrastructure that has been neglected for so long. There will be surprising shortages of qualified people in certain important areas and it will not be possible to "import" this skill from elsewhere because it doesn't exist in a form acceptable to American industry or regulatory authorities.
Obama is not my hero. I didn't vote for him. I didn't vote for McCain either. I didn't vote for anyone. I did not see one qualified candidate, at least that was my opinion. Therefore I didn't endorse anyone. Of course that means I have no right to criticize when they screw up which I think they will. For all the hoopla and for all his serene manner and intelligence, Barack Obama is almost entirely without experience in government. We'll see if this is a fatal handicap for him once he's in office. Panetta was a very dumb choice IMO for CIA. Right now we've prevented a repeat of 9-11 thanks in part to the war on terror Bush pursued. We may not like the tactics but it has worked so far. Tinkering with it to comply with a naive morality is IMO a dumb move but that is what is going to happen. If there is another attack on the US because Obama let our guard down on his watch because waterboarding and other tactics were too distasteful for a culture too squeamish to hear about it, he will be impeached...or worse. Meanwhile, I await the stock market crash. I'm ready to get back into it after 8 years away during the bubble. I saw it all coming, it's no surprise to me. I just didn't know about the CDSs which made it far worse than I expected.
Complain about this comment
Flossy,
The original and true meaning of the term "Peasant", now mis-used as an insult indicating inferiority to the Mobility....c/f "native";-)
ed
Complain about this comment
#224. SamTyler1969: "So not in LA then? Were not when they started, then moved somewhere else . . . . "
In some cases, they were never in LA the city although the area around Sunset and Gower was called Gower Gulch because of the proliferation of studios and movie makers. When the pioneers set up shop, many parts of Los Angeles County were not incorporated as separate cities and indeed they did move around. Vast backlots were used and land was available; the last large remaining backlot would be Universal, with 400 acres of prime real estate which straddles the city and county line. (Donald Trump was said to be interested . . .) The other great lots have been sold off - the most notable being 20th Century-Fox which is now Century City, following the financial debacle of "Cleopatra".
The analogy would be London - not even the Houses of Parliament are actually in the City of London but in the City of Westminster, but everyone thinks of them as being in London. So it is with Los Angeles and Hollywood, the Entertainment Capital of the World.
Complain about this comment
An issue that doesn't seem to attract much interest on this blog is the budget problems that most States are experiencing. While the effects of state budget problems may only have limited foreign policy implications, they do have a devastating effect on critical domestic programs such as education, MEDICAID, local infrastructure projects, etc.
The most affected by this crisis is, of course, California with a whopping $40B deficit and no way to mitigate its effects, but other states such as Florida, where I live, are also facing serious problems and proposing devastating reductions in critical areas, such as education, even though we rank dead last in that area among the 50 states.
Not surprisingly, debate on options such as closing tax loopholes for the wealthiest residents was quickly shelved by the State legislature, and budget reductions in areas that ought to be our top priority are presented as a solution to an electorate ambivalent to the repercussions of what is being proposed.
Complain about this comment
190 gherkin
you are barmy
Complain about this comment
In Quebec we do not bother with hyphenated identities regarding heritage but instead are divided along linguistic lines. Therefore everyone falls into: Franco, Anglo or Allo (meaning other) with "phone" on the end!
It all comes down to your "mother tongue." Colour does not play a part. Haitians - Franco, Jamaicans - Anglo and if your first language is Italian - Allo.
A weird and wonderful place! (we like to think colour blind - but with the rise of those damn gangs!)
A well known documentary film maker was in a bank in a very Anglo part of town during a hold up. The robber had a very heavy "joual" accent (colloquial Montreal french) and was demanding the teller hurry up! Realizing the poor teller was so terrified she could not comprehend his french, the film maker was compelled to shout out, "Speak to her in English!"
Complain about this comment
GnR # 238, 239
Suddenly my hero,[MAII] after 9-10 months of hating everything has feet of clay.
What should any soul do under these circumstances but try to bring him back to the straight and narrow, or should that be the crooked and wide.
Your own doubting Thomas stance - always true and reliable.
Keep reading the tea-leaves.
timewaitsfornoman # 245
The metal chimes [for the year of the Ox] are only to protect you from bad things, so maybe for Russian and USA subs it can not hurt.
Marcus usually found anything outside the USA a threat to his country and his peace of mind, Canada being one of many countries he disliked.
It was a personal memo for him. You are still tops in my book.
Complain about this comment
Not sure about vibrant...but in personal experience outside the US sometimes I am amazed at the superior history, food, culture elsewhere...but when I get home to the US I feel like I can BREATHE again.
Complain about this comment
Marcus # 248
Hallelujah.
Now that is the old Marcus I used to remember. Always a kind word. Always a balanced opinion.
Sitting on the fence for so long, to lay blame on any side in this election process and beyond.
Welcome back good friend.
You have taken a weight off my heart.
Complain about this comment
My optomism is for myself. I have developed some of the skills that will be needed to repair the infrastructure of America's public and private sector in the near future, the crumbling infrastructure that has been neglected for so long.
lol that's funny,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:C5_galaxy.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1er_vol_de_l%27_A380.jpg
spot the difference?
Complain about this comment
"exist in a form acceptable to American industry or regulatory authorities."
If you have the job then we are all doomed.
You couldn't spot the difference .
" I saw it all coming, it's no surprise to me."
Lol so full of it, and yet so wrong,so many times.
A few months back America was beyond the reach of the worlds financial problems.IYO.
American car makers were doing fine if not sterling work IYO.
Nothing could go wrong IYO.
Keep up the laughs.These are times where humour is needed.
Complain about this comment
254 watermanaquarius
"You are still tops in my book." Thank you, you are too kind. Do I understand that you live in Holland? The Dutch influence must be rubbing off on you. Unless of course you were born with an innate love of Canada.
Complain about this comment
Ref 248 MarcusAureliusII
In these past several elections, when faced with the choice of "None of the Above"; I wrote in a candidate I felt had the best qualifications for the job. I still get to "voice" my opinion in this manner. Not the Homer Simpson/Donald Duck kind of write-in vote that is disrespectful to the process; but I always write-in someone who has presented sound reasoning for the times. I have voted for my father; respected friends; people who have influenced my opinions and ideas.
This election I voted for Jennifer Granholm, Governor of Michigan. She was not Constitutionally qualified because of her Canadian birth. There are many that think she is an air head. I am not a real fan of her, myself.
I chose her because she presented a far-reaching plan during her State of the State address last January. I chose her because she alerted the State to the impending economic crisis we are now experiencing and spoke of many new ways for Michigan to diversify it's economy during her State of the State address. It was an excellent address that did have some limited results.
We are not locked into voting for the two-party candidates at the top of the ballot. We get to send a message by our vote. Even a small whisper that is only noticed in passing can catch attention.
Complain about this comment
Hi flossy
Your comment "if you are born and bred in a place you are from that place"
I would imagine that applies to many in the UK who although having UK nationality are still referred to as something other even by Royals? I know its not politically correct but you have to admit its there( U.K.) and here in the United States .
Lets be clear , America is not the egalitarian beacon of light as some may think . We have clear class and ethnic and racial segments that are not viewed as the same as the dominant population Obama's election aside .
Wellington said it best about his Irish birth
"Just because your born in a stable does not make you a horse"
cheers,
Third generation Italian- American
Complain about this comment
Just to point out (about your link):
As people become wealthier, they tend to become more financially conservative.
As people become older and wiser, they tend to become more culturally conservative (unless they fried their brains on drugs during their youth - that's you, hippy generation becoming seniors now).
As people of a particular ethnicity start to feel safer/less beleaguered or outcast, they will vote less as a bloc, and more as individuals.
Also, take into account that as groups both Latinos (and Hispanics/Spanish speakers) and African Americans tend to be culturally conservative by American standards (and thus very conservative by European/British standards). They currently vote Democrat (especially African Americans) because the Democrats are the welfare party, and the party perceived as more pro-illegal alien and non-racist.
Once blacks and Latinos, as entire communities, join the ranks of the middle and upper classes - which both groups are already moving toward - the number of Republicans from these demographics should increase.
Notice that Asians are the minority group that are least Democrat. They are also the wealthiest, having a higher average income than whites. Their loyalty to Democrats (or just Obama?) being higher than whites (62% for Asians, 47% for college whites, 40% for non-college whites) can be largely attributed to perceptions of racism and their relatively small number. Asians also tend to be on the culturally conservative side, at least for most issues. If they no longer feel threatened in any way, and just become ordinary Americans, Asians' political leanings should start to match their incomes and values.
Finally, a lesson from history: Italians, Irish, Germans, and Slavs were all groups that in the past voted in blocs. They were all victims of racism and discrimination, too. However, as they climbed the socioeconomic ladder (along with having the advantage of 'passing' as Anglo-Saxon), their political affiliations started to weaken. Today, you don't really hear of the Italian, Irish, German, or Slavic voting blocs. The same should - hopefully - happen for blacks, Latinos, Asians, and other minorities.
We (all readers with half a brain or more) see where Justin gets his rather low opinion about 'working class cultural conservatives'.
You read broadly in terms of numbers, Justin. That's good (and part of your job), but you should widen the field in terms of ideological/political leanings, though. Your link sources in these blogs are heavily biased to the left of the spectrum.
Complain about this comment
Thinking of fakes
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7824989.stm
Madeoff cannot be touched it seems.
Complain about this comment
About the last two blogs (including this one):
Why is Justin puffing up the United States like this? Most Americans don't need more hearing the United States is number one, the greatest country on Earth, the most powerful superpower, etc. Americans in general could use a lot more humility (as could people all over the world).
Americanophilia (is that a word?) from foreigners just gives me the heeby-jeebies. I hope that the United States can remain the preeminent superpower, or at least able to defend itself and its interests from enemies. But all this national flattery is weird.
Is that a BBC tactic (along with playing the 'America is so paradoxically great' theme) or something? Flatter the stupid Americans who like hearing how spectacular their country (and they) are, and maybe they'll stay longer and bring over their friends? I realize that Americans now make up a large proportion of the BBC's viewership, which is probably why there is now so much trivial American news on this website-
-but, really, have some respect for yourselves and Americans.
Complain about this comment
timewaitsfornoman # 259,
Still with a residence in Holland but now primarily in warmer climes.
Obviously the liberation of Holland by the Canadians in WWII is another plus point for Canada, the pennant monument honouring them, being just around the corner from my old house in Amsterdam.
Boy scouts and wearing the old "Mounty" hat started it in the UK, and the Red Serge with the winter Busby, at a time of Busby Babes and red football shirt did the rest.
Be prepared + Maintiens le droit. You are the good guys.
Complain about this comment
There is a new post on Health care Heartbreak from a UK doctor speaking in the US.
Complain about this comment
FYI, an example of Moderation gone mad
;-)
ed
Complain about this comment
AC,
More like their opinions fossilise....Yup! But I'm still flexible in thought and deed. Just better informed.
(loud raspberry)
ed
Complain about this comment
publiusdetroit, I'm well aware that there are many candidates on the ballot besides Republicrats and Democans. But not one qualified. Yes I could have written in something stupid like der governator who presides over a state so bankrupt, they are issuing IOUs instead of tax refunds. BTW, when I lived in California they passed prop 13. The state had a 15 billion dollar surplus in its coffers in 1978, now it has a 40 billion dollar debt. That's 2 billion a year spent more than they took in. If their bonds aren't rated junk, they ought to be.
I voted for Gore in 2000. I figured a stick of wood was a better choice than the village idiot. But I was wrong. As it turned out, I was glad Gore wasn't president on 9-11. In August 2000 at the convention he said he was going to fight for the average American. He didn't fight for Elian Gonzalez, he didn't fight for the average American, and when they stole the election from him he couldn't even fight for himself. How would he have fought the Taleban and al Qaeda? He'll be lucky if he wins his fight in the battle of the bulge in his kitchen.
Like I said, by not voting I have relinquished my right to complain about Obama if he turns out to be the incompetent I expect him to be. But then I didn't see anyone who I thought would do any better. And unlike you, I don't make a habit of spitting in the wind. You never know when it will blow back in your face.
watermanaquarius, if you think the stock market went down from 14,000 to 8500 on the DOW is a lot, wait until the miserable corporate earnings and forecasts come out later this month. It took 2 1/2 years for the market to bottom out after the 1929 crash. I've been studying that a lot lately to see what new things I could learn from it for my future investments. Too bad Greenspan didn't do the same or he might never have advocated eliminating all those regulations. A golden opportunity for those who saw it coming and prepared themselves for it.
Complain about this comment
#250,
Hello David,
London is two cities, but only because the definition of City in the UK is based on the Church of England See, and not the civilian government. Londoners have one elected representative, Boris. That isn't of LA.
Besides which, that isn't the point. Great cities have their own personality. London has a soul, New York an attitude. Rome has a heart, heck even Paris has a stomach.
LA has I5. And an awful lot of porn. And Burritos.
Lonely Sam
Complain about this comment
#264 Anon
I think that as Justin is leaving the US he's getting emotional. I don't think he's a 'brown tonguer' of the US.
Complain about this comment
205, ish-ish.
If you have ever had your own business, and it is profitable, you will know that there is always pressure to expand it by borrowing. What people don't take into consideration is that you HAVE to generate a certain volume just to pay off the bank. If you fall on bad times this can be disastrous. Enlarging your business out of profits, if you decided to enlarge it at all, may not be fashionable, but it is relatively secure and stress free.
Complain about this comment
#264. AnonymousCalifornian: "Why is Justin puffing up the United States like this?"
Whether it be religion or giving up smoking, like all converts he proselytizes.
Complain about this comment
As Canada is slowly getting more of a mention, I'd like to pay homage to Due South. One of my favourite TV shows.
Complain about this comment
265 watermanaquarius
I'm still trying to decode your last message. Perhaps the cipher book was changed without my knowledge.
Mounty I did not recognize as Mountie - which I presume you mean.
Busby, as worn by the Grenadier Guards? Because of their bear skin headgear and red uniforms?
But I had to google the Busby Babes. That must have send shock waves through the UK and put a lot of people off flying! Because?
You forgot to mention Winnie-the-pooh. Native of Winnipeg.
I believe we do try to be the "good guys" and... not to flog a dead horse, that is why I wish to see the last of Stephen Harper!
Complain about this comment
Ed, #267, I like MAII's comment (one of the few to escape).
"This blog has been removed because the contributors found the moderators had broken the rules."
Complain about this comment
On the topic of hyphenated Americans, I'm pleasantly surprised that the general consensus here is against hyphenated Americanism, and in favor of Americans simply being American Americans.
bethpa, while I see your points that hyphenated Americans might help illustrate our mixed ancestries to ignorant foreigners as well as encouraging Americans to learn more about the world, I don't think hyphenated Americanism really achieves both.
It is general knowledge that the United States has people from all over the world, although - in support of your argument - for some countries in Asia and Latin America, emphasizing that Americans are not all white or black would be a good thing.
As for Americans learning about the outside world, by your reasoning a child of, say, Pakistani-Swedish ancestry would just be interested in Pakistani and Swedish history and culture. Americans should be encouraged to learn about foreign cultures and histories simply because there is a lot to learn from them, not because of a pretty pointless ancestral link.
lawchicago, while I respect your right to consider yourself Italian-American, it does suggest divided loyalties. You may not have an allegiance to Italy, but still have one to the Irish-American community. And your argument that by being self-titled Italian-American you are describing a set of conditions in which you were born and raised. You are not representative of all Americans of Italian descent, and nor are they representative of you.
The Roosevelt quote about hyphenated Americans is a good one, and unfortunately one that still needs to be stressed a century later - both about hyphenated Americans and naturalized citizens.
Multiculturalism in a country is a bad thing; just look at sub-Sahara Africa with all their civil strife.
P.S. About the usage of black and African American: I was under the impression that most black Americans preferred black to African American. Is there some research to suggest this is not the case, or helps confirm it is?
Complain about this comment
"As people become older and wiser, they tend to become more culturally conservative ..."
Except for those that don't.
Complain about this comment
If Obama is looking for a 'big ticket' item to cut may I suggest the proposed missile shield? Even if it worked as advertised its so easily circumvented as to be useless.
Complain about this comment
277, Anonymous.
"And your argument that by being self-titled Italian-American you are describing a set of conditions in which you were born and raised. You are not representative of all Americans of Italian descent, and nor are they representative of you."
A good point. The stereotype of any nationality is flawed. Since the nationality we are talking about is Italian, let us look at that one. (1) He is dark. (2) He is a practicing Catholic. (3) He is a good lover. (4) He likes opera. (5) He is an expert on Italian food. (6) He is pro-life. (7) He has a big and friendly extended family. (8) He talks with his hands. (9) He has a hot temper. (10) He might be affiliated with the Mafia.
I could go on, I guess, but these ten traits are enough.
Complain about this comment
in Ref. to 278:
Id rather just quote Churchhill:
"If you're not a liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative when you're old, you have no brain."
Complain about this comment
#248
Marcus,
Can you do my next performance review?
I ask because based on your assessment of the current administration, you'd score me highly if, in business language:
I inherited a profit making company with strong assets and brand.
The outgoing Chief Executive advised me of a threat to the company he had been watching and was concerned about (albeit he had not fully addressed it).
I focused elsewhere, and the scenario came to pass. I then claimed no one could have forseen the scenario despite it being featured in several global bestselling novels.
I disappeared for a couple of days afterwards and let the VP responsible for the most impacted department take the lead.
I promised to hold the responsible person accountable, but never did.
I claim to have addressed this threat by spending a large effort and focus taking an agressive market position against a different competitor. I also claim to have foiled repeat attempts, but cannot provide any details, evidence or support for these claims.
I employed family friends and cronies in critical roles regardless of their qualifications to deliver.
I turned the company into a loss maker.
While doing this I cut production staff pay, and handed out big bonuses to senior management. Only senior management, mind.
I devalued the companies brand to nothing, and it's credit rating to junk bond status.
I consumed critical assets in non productive ventures. Furthermore these ventures did not meet their orignally stated goals.
I later mishandled a major company crisis, then claimed no one could have seen it coming. Except my staff, and the press.
I mishandled a natural disaster that affected a significant operation and many of may staff. I publically displayed confidence in my VP while he was worrying about what shirt to wear on TV rather than helping our people.
I then mis managed a major market incident that further devalued my companies assets. I failed to act to stem losses, and accepted being shouted at by my peers and fellow board members in my own house over how I handled this.
I spent the last 4 months of my tenure hiding from the staff and media, and the last two sending my friends out to tell the companies shareholders and staff it hasn't been that bad and when they look back in a couple of years they will see these as the good times.
Man, I have got to get you on one of my boards. Only I could use a bonus in the current economy as Mrs Sam wants a new 911 (GT2 Turbo) and they ain't cheap.
Then again, maybe that would be poor governance?
Amazed Sam
Complain about this comment
279, Asa.
"If Obama is looking for a 'big ticket' item to cut may I suggest the proposed missile shield? Even if it worked as advertised its so easily circumvented as to be useless."
You might want to make that suggestion to Obama on change.gov.
Complain about this comment
281, bienvenue.
Churchill always had good one-liners, which is not the same thing as spouting wisdom. It is true that people tend to resist change as they get older. It is also true that some people's mental faculties ossify with age. But there are plenty oldtimers around whose brains expand with a growing wealth of knowledge, and who apply this knowledge to a changing world.
Complain about this comment
#278, 281
Bien,
Then you should quote him. This has been utterly debunked.
From the Churchill Center:
"Conservative by the time you're 35"
"If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain." There is no record of anyone hearing Churchill say this. Paul Addison of Edinburgh University makes this comment: "Surely Churchill can't have used the words attributed to him. He'd been a Conservative at 15 and a Liberal at 35! And would he have talked so disrespectfully of Clemmie, who is generally thought to have been a lifelong Liberal?"
As for age and wisdom it really depends what you mean. There are a couple of correlations that have been shown, fpor example that those who are better educated tend to be more liberal, those with inherited wealth more conservative, those with a low net worth (below $1m) or a high net worth (>$5m) more liberal, and so on. Smart, self made rich folks tend to be latte Democrats.
The only folks who believe that bunk about older smarter people being more conservative are folks who need to think because they are old and conservative (in the US sense) they are wise.
Old Sam
Complain about this comment
In Ref. to 280:
!!!...I guess Im a sterotype Italian-American then because I 1)am fairly dark, 2) am a practicing Catholic, 3) am learning to cook Italian from my mother and grandmother, 4) am pro-life, 5) have a large extended family, 6) talk w/ my hands(which I always thought was a southern thing), 7) have a temper, and I 8) go w/ my grandfather every so often to check on the family business. As for the other two, Im not married yet and I hate opera. I guess not much bleeds out after just 2 generations off the boat.
Complain about this comment
timewaitsfornoman # 75,
Perfectly correct .I Confused Mounty with Mountie. Busby is the little fur cap a la Davy Crotchett, without the tail.
Here you will find the reel mounties.The Full Mounty
Mounties never flog horses- dead or not, but I do.
You Canadians are still all okay.
Complain about this comment
286, Bienvenue.
But I have only two (out of ten) of those stereotypic traits. So you see what I mean. Probably every American who is not of Italian descent has a couple as well. It would be deceptive of me to call myself an Italian-American, aside from the fact that I refuse to go through life with a label.
Complain about this comment
I always understood that the quote attributed to Churchill about was actually uttered by the French PM Clemenceau.
The second paragraph in the home page of this charity reminds me so much of what is going on right now. Ed, want to guess where my first born got his name?
Complain about this comment
280 & 286
Just a brief aside regarding the Italy, that so many Americans hyphenate themselves to....
Italy didn't fully unify until 1870, when Garibaldi's army finally broke the walls of Rome, ending the theocracy of the Papal States.
Before the 1860s Italy was actually around 20 different independent states (even including Nice, in France, which voted to be French in 1860! - Garibaldi was born in Nice)
Within Italy the dialect versions of the language were so diverse that Venetians and Neapolitans would have had trouble communicating. This was only resolved by Mussolini in the 1920s who imposed the national teaching of the Florentine dialect (language of Dante) as Italian. The dialects have all but died out now - strong regional accents remain (as in most countries) and occasional word usage varies.
Most Italian-Americans trace their lineage to the poorer regions of the south (Sicily, Puglia, Campania, Calabria) and to the Abruzzi in the Appenine mountains, all of which had distinct cultures from each other and the north, and centre of Italy.
In Italy people are fiercely regional .... it is often said in jest that they are only truely Italian every 4 years when the World Cup is on .... and when they are abroad.
Complain about this comment
285, Sam.
I am afraid that the belief that older people tend to be more conservative is true - at least if you look at election polling numbers. What I object to is the belief that this is inevitable, or desirable.
Complain about this comment
Marbles 280
Just fun I'll play with your list ...... in the full knowledge that stereotypes are only thus because they either are (or are perceived to be) mainly true...
"The stereotype of any nationality is flawed. Since the nationality we are talking about is Italian, let us look at that one.
(1) He is dark.
....Or fair if northern - bit part of Alto Adige region used to be South Tyrol of Austria ... lots of germanic blood there.
And don't forget the blond, blue-eyed Sicilians - William the Conqueror's brother Robert stopped off to conquer Sicily en route to the Crusades .... lots of Norman recessive genes.
(2) He is a practicing Catholic.
...... used to be more true. Church attendance is falling dramatically among the under 45s and in city-dwellers.
It is often said that Italy is "culturally catholic"
(3) He is a good lover.
..... I can only speak for my wife, and too much of a gentleman to do that here!!!
(4) He likes opera.
...... of course. Pavarotti was king.
(5) He is an expert on Italian food.
..... there is no Italian food in Italy. Only Venetian food, Milanese food, Roman food, Neapolitan food, Sicilian food ...... get the picture. They take that part of life REALLY seriously!
(6) He is pro-life.
..... seperation of Church and state. Who really knows what people think.
Abortion has been legal since 1978, but is at a much lower rate than in the USA
(7) He has a big and friendly extended family.
.... oh yes. Just remembering the names of all those cousins ..... and the cost of Christmas. Mamma Mia!
(8) He talks with his hands.
.... indeed. To shut them up you need handcuffs.
(9) He has a hot temper.
.... can't comment. Don't want to get into hot water.
(10) He might be affiliated with the Mafia.
..... only if they're in politics.
Ciao tutti.
Complain about this comment
#291
Hi Marby,
The original proposition was older and wiser. Older wiser people are liberal. Older stupid people I can't speak for, I don't spend much time with them.
Pedantic Sam
Complain about this comment
292, Rome.
Very good - and funny. But I think you are talking about Italians and not "Italian-Americans." Although apparently even native Italians don't quite fit the stereotype (abortion, complexion, active Catholicism). The descendents here have incorporated other influences in their lives. It's not as though they lived in a walled community of like individuals. And then there is intermarriage, which is rife. And time, lots of time....
Complain about this comment
#2 South.... wtf does that mean,.. deomgraphics,..like the parralel or meridian make the difference.
America is more than just a country,.. for us as well as the world,.. it is an idea,.. a dream,.. a place in the unknown where dreams are able to be reality!
Why?
Because the human 'Spirit' lives here. 'We the people',.. can you feel that. THAT is America.
Sorry my friend, as I read my words I realise they sound mean, and I don't intend for that to be,.. I want people to understand that 'Liberty', a/the godess of life and dreams intwined in the now exists,.. here in the USA.
BHO is a son of 'Liberty',.... I am a son of liberty,... if you are bleesed to live here,... you are a son/daughter of liberty and,.......... "WHAT A WONDERFUL THING THAT IS"
It is what Americans fight and protest for,.. what we dream of at night of,.. and how well we sleep.
Yes, America and the world economy is in dire staits,.. but 'We the people of the world',.. will surpass this obstacle and pursure long ionto the future the glamore and love of "Liberty"
Complain about this comment
293, Sam.
I would say that as one grows older, the view becomes wider, more complex and more subtle. Unless you are brain dead, the years add a tremendous wealth of knowledge and, although one's basic nature may not change drastically, it evolves.
Complain about this comment
Ref 282 SamTyler1969
You just described the major corporation from where I recently retired. The last fifteen years have been like living in the BBC version of "The Office" lifting scripts from "Dilbert".
Why aren't consumers buying? Could it be the lack of a paycheck?
Maybe the corporate CEOs and the new government will figure it out and respond with a workable plan before my Individual Retirement Account hits the tank.
I'm not holding my breath, mind you. I am just glad I did not waste my money sending my child to high-priced diploma mills like Harvard, Yale, Princeton...
Complain about this comment
69, I told you I never voted for Bush. Why do you pretend that I did? The US economy was not in such great shape when Bush took over. It had been pumped up by Greenspan in 1999 with credit cuts because of the worry over Y2K. Easy credit was tightened in 2000 and the economy was slowing down in 2000 around the time when the IT bubble was about to burst. This is why Bush gave huge tax cuts to his multi millionaire and billionaire friends. This was also in repayment for their assistance in getting elected by putting up 200 million dollars. Highway robbery but legal and common practice by both parties. The only real difference if the truth be known is who their friends are that they shovel the taxpayer's money to.
While it is true that the attack on Sept. 11, 2001 happened on Bush's watch, it was largely the result of stupidity during prior administrations by both Congress and successive presidents going back at least to Bush the father. Bush the son's dumbest mistake IMO was in not having Congress declare war and putting the US on a war footing right after 9-11. He tried to run the country as though nothing had happened, tried to make things seem to return to normal as quickly as possible to keep people calm. Bad mistake, many Americans have notoriously short memories. He was a very weak president. He showed this almost immediately with the recon (spy) plane a Chinese fighter pilot crashed into over international waters in April 2001. He should have blown up the plane with a missile five minutes after the plane landed and told the Chinese that if they didn't return the crew unharmed in 24 hours, there'd be an American embargo of Chinese exports to the US immediately. He was equally weak with Britain, France, and Germany over Iraq. He should never have waited from September 2002 to March 2003 for a UN resolution for the invasion. Without any resolution whatsoever, he should have declared that Iraq violated the terms of the 1991 cease fire once too often and just invaded. If he'd gotten any flack from France or Germany, he should have used the threat of a trade embargo and an American pullout from all of Europe including the Balkins. Remember the war in kosovo didn't require a UN resolution, Russia would have vetoed one. Instead it just required the Europeans to beg Clinton. Bush left North Korea unattended and they have a nuclear weapon of sorts, Iran as well, sat on his hands for 2 days during the aftermath of Katrina, and allowed the US economy to go bankrupt although the Democrats including Clinton had a big hand in that one too. So he's fired along with his party. Now it's the turn of the other guys to take a crack at it and see if they can avoid making things even worse.
BTW 69, you're fired too. Why? I don't need a reason, just because. That's why I'm in charge. You don't like it? Sue, see how far it gets you in court. Time my lawyers did something to earn their money anyway.
Complain about this comment
104 Pinko. And just like the road to heaven, BC hwy 4 is a steep and narrow path. Thought the water temperature might be a bit brisk for Elvis, though.
105. No, you don't. My point was that what is shown on TV and carried in the newspapers about America is often misleading. On the ground, away from touristy places, you tend to see something different.
Of course I can't pretend to have the same knowledge of Europe as the US: 80 % of my work and business is in the US, and I have known the US closely all my life, have visited probably well over a hundred times, and have spent lengthy periods of time in the US. And no, I haven't lived in each of Europe's major countries. But I speak four of Europe's six major languages with varying degrees of gracefulness, and while I likely don't read as much as Sam or Ed, or Guns, I do read a fair bit nonetheless, and have traveled a fair bit in Europe and enjoyed it immensely. Still, on the basis of experience even the Swiss (yes, even the Swiss!) who run a tidy, perfect little country that I love right down to the ground and where I would retire if I had the money; and who are polite in every way, would always view people like me as auslandern, even if I had lived there 80 years. It isn't the only European country like that. There are others that are worse, if not much worse. But America? Not so much. And as for genocide 40 minutes from Vienna, that's a matter of public record, and it looks pretty bad on all involved, including the UK. Pusillanimous, heartless, gutless.
269. MAII.
If Gore had been elected, what makes you think there would have been a 9/11 ? Part of the reason for it was the perception that Bush was a lightweight (the most polite term) to be sneered at. There was a conference in South Africa where the US delegation walked out; the Lion of the Panshir was assassinated on the Friday night; and 9/11 followed. Why would any of those things have happened if Gore had been elected?
265. Waterman
And the sad thing is that not that many Canadian schoolchildren (or adults, really) are aware of it. But the Dutch (and Belgians) will never ever forget, and the war graves age cared for as if the grass and flowers were manicured twice a day with nail clippers. I've seen that, too. And it's humbling.
287 Waterman: The full mounty ... You can only cringe at the thought.
285 Sam. Yes. Sadly, yes.
Complain about this comment
Aurallianus,
I never said you did vote for Bush.
Wow, you fired me. Pity I'm still here. Guess your not in charge after all.
The rest with that big paragraph looked like monologueing, so I didn't bother with it.
Warm up your lawyers big guy. As someone once said 'Bring it on'.
Attorney Sam
Complain about this comment
287 watermanaquarius
"I'm a Lumberjack and I'm ok, I sleep all night and I work all day", and the Dead Parrot are perhaps two of their most clever skits. Thanks for sending the link.
299 Interestedforeigner
"If Gore had been elected, what makes you think there would have been a 9/11 ?"
Good question. I often wonder why this is not discussed more (or at all)?
I have been to Juno Beach on June 6th and the Beny-sur-Mer Cemetery - a picture taken there is my screen saver. I am reminded every day. Je me souviens.
Complain about this comment
#270. SamTyler1969: "London is two cities, but only because the definition of City in the UK is based on the Church of England See, and not the civilian government."
Sorry Sam, but you're wrong again. Long ago it used to be the case that those towns which had a Church of England cathedral were designated as cities, but that is no longer so. At the Millennium, three more towns were designated cities, Brighton, Wolverhampton and Inverness, the first two without a cathedral. You might care to read this Wikipedia entry about cities - you will see that in 1899 Birmingham was made a city before it even had a cathedral.
In addition to St Paul's Cathedral, which is in the City itself, there is Southwark Cathedral in South London. The Catholic Archdiocese of Los Angeles covers 8,762 square miles and the Episcopal diocese very similar. Both rather larger than their English counterparts.
The form of local government is too complicated to discuss here, but the County of Los Angeles has its Board of Supervisors and the City its Mayor. Just a decade ago, London adopted a directly elected mayor, but there is still the Greater London Authority, successor to the Greater London Council, itself successor to the London County Council, which was headquartered on the banks of the Thames at County Hall, now a so-called "leisure complex."
Although I love to visit, I can't imagine living in London again, dirty, expensive, overcrowded and with fewer English/British voices to be heard. It is of course fashionable to adversely criticise Los Angeles, but it is the equal of every other major metropolis in the world. If it weren't, why do so many people want to live here? There is a lot more to it than Interstate 5 (consider the 101, the Hollywood Freeway) and Burritos, it influences the entire world with what it produces. Last night's Golden Globe Awards ceremony was seen in over 160 countries and last year's Academy Awards in 200, with a billion plus viewers. The Tonys, from New York, are lucky to be seen in one! As for Britain' Olivier Awards - don't ask.
Complain about this comment
Mr. Cunard, Sam69,
This is, at best, a question tangential to your discussion, but as Londonophiles, perhaps you might enlighten me.
What, for all love, are (were?) the "Liberties"
(e.g., Liberties of the Savoy) of London?
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
Complain about this comment
#302
David,
I merely opine that that is why London was once a 'city' of two cities. The division in modern terms is irrelevant. Westminster has its own 'council', like Southwark or Hackney or God Forbid Tower Hamlets, none of which are cities in the modern sense. Or ever referred to as such, except the City of Westminster who have big road signs to fit all the crazy words in. In Los Angeles everyone wants to be known as a city seperate from Los Angeles
But it does have a lot of porn.
Filthy Sam
Complain about this comment
BenL (#281), that's not Churchill; it's Churchill quoting Disraeli.
Complain about this comment
#303,
Pinky,
Always loved your music.
I could be corrected but I think this was an early form of local government, where the local electorate (typically one person) voted in the local council (himself) and then set up local laws. Actually, they didn't bother voting. They governed what could be traded there and when and how a person guilty of some form of civil issue could be locked up. For example Southwark was notorious for ladies of the night and had its own debtors prison, the Clink. It was run by the Bishop of Winchester.
The Savoy was interesting because it was/is owned by the Duchy of Lancaster which could set its own laws until well into the 19th Century. These were different from the rest of London so for example if you were a debtor you could hang out in the Liberty of the Savoy and your creditors (or more importantly the Baliffs) could not touch you. Of course if you ran up debts there, they had their own jail.
I think.
But Marcus fired me, so this can't be me. Because when you fire someone the first thing you do is shut down their internet access.
Or I could be Marcus, now using the handle of the person who he fired. In which case this is all completely wrong.
Marcus. Ummm, Sam.
Complain about this comment
#304.SamTyler1969: "I merely opine that that is why London was once a 'city' of two cities. The division in modern terms is irrelevant."
We were discussing the comparisons of the very modern London, New York and Los Angeles, the latter about which you made some disparaging remarks. If you don't like it out here, don't visit, but also, don't be so critical about somewhere of which you seem to know very little. When people get fat, old and bald here, they do something about it!!! I can introduce you to some very good remedial surgeons should you ever have the need.
I've never lived in New York, but I have done so in London and Los Angeles; both have their attractions but the City of the Angels is far more influential than the British capital. Without our films, TV productions and recordings, who would speak "English" throughout the world? It certainly could not be attributed to the BBC World Service!
Complain about this comment
RomeStu
for the sake of being game ..for little fun
I will do the top ten list that tells me I'm Italian American
I am not dark ,have reddish light brown hair and green eyes .( the Normans and Vikings did have a good time it seems in Sicily ).
( My brother is a dead ringer for Al Pachino though )
However my surname is very obviously Italian
I like Opera , Cook some mean Italian dishes .
Was adonished by a judge once in court to stop that thing with my hands .
Lots of relatives with names like Rocco, Angelina , Fortunata
A Albanian friend of mine said the thing about Italians being good lovers actually is a myth- it applies to the Albanians ..I have no clue
Lapsed Catholic though the only one in my Family.
Pro choice
Have a very long fuse but dont get me going
Am not a member of the Mafia and if I was wouldnt tell you anyway
The jest aside , The fact is it seems lots of posters here seem to be very upset with the idea that I'm a unapologetic hyphenated- American.
I guess I could legally change my name to some neutral surname ( ideally Anglo -Saxon ) but I've had the name for a long time and have become fond of it even though by doing so I might just might avoid the very stereotypes we are talkiing about ?
Would I have to do that to pass for somethng other than I really am ?
To quote Popeye "I am what I am "
Ciao,
Third generation Chicago Italian -American
Complain about this comment
#307
David,
So now people speak English because of Hollywood and not the historical spread of English speaking peoples? LOL.
C'mon. I only opine that LA is not a global city. It isn't. You said it is the most diverse city in the world. It isn't, it just has a lot of minorities. LA is not the world's most diverse city, on any measure other than the color of the populations skin not being white, a pretty poor measure on any chart. That would make Lagos the worlds most diverse city. Or Mumbai. Or Kabul. Maybe Tehran.
Even in California people choose to live in the bay area or San Diego. LA is a sprawling Hyperburb. I admit, I don't like it.
None of which changes the original point. It is not more diverse than London, New York or a host of others. However, if you can provide some insight as to why you believe it is diverse (I offered the take out test, and the nationalities test) I would be happy to recant.
Statistician Sam
Complain about this comment
#307
David,
As a follow on, re the old fat and bald. There is dignity, and vanity. I choose, others may also. If you are a middle aged guy who travels and dines a lot, it does take a toll. However a middle aged guy with hair plugs, liposuction and a face lift looks like, well, a total freak. Except in LA. It's OK in LA, even though the liposuction really knocks your cholesterol off kilter.
I do not however advise relocating fat to 'enhance' certain features. It never looks natural. At least without digital enhancement. So I am told. By a friend. Not me, no experience.
But in LA they have a lot of expertise in both.
Lipo Sam
Complain about this comment
#303.chronophobe: "What, for all love, are (were?) the "Liberties" (e.g., Liberties of the Savoy) of London?"
Areas of London where the law differed from the rest of it.
"Liberty of London" is the famous department store with Tudor revival exterior features, located on the corner of Great Marlborough Street and Regent Street. Its clock is famous for the characters of St George and the Dragon which appear every hour, much like the much newer clock at Fortnum and Mason. The store backs onto Carnaby Street, forty or so years ago the scene of the peacock revolution. And it is kitty-corner (diagonal) to the stage door of the London Palladium, a part which was overwhelmed with Beatles' fans from Liverpool in October 1963. Quite irrelevant to your question, but the two "Liberties" could be confused.
Complain about this comment
280. allmymarbles wrote:
Since the nationality we are talking about is Italian, let us look at that one.
(1) He is dark. Yes.
(2) He is a practicing Catholic. No.
(3) He is a good lover. Definitely.
(4) He likes opera. Yes.
(5) He is an expert on Italian food. Likes it, cooks it, not expert.
(6) He is pro-life.NO (i.e. very pro life but not in that sense.) (7) He has a big and friendly extended family. No
(8) He talks with his hands. Yes.
(9) He has a hot temper. Yes.
(10) He might be affiliated with the Mafia.(????)
it seems to work. (5 out of 10. I'm half Italian . . .)
Complain about this comment
Sam, David.
When you talk about Los Angeles, neither of you mention the smog. One of my brothers lives near LA and I went to visit him. As we were driving away from the airport with the windows down, i smelled something horribly poisonous. I told him to shut the windows because something bad was fouling the air. He laughed and said it was just smog. JUST? No way, no how could I ever live there.
As for face lifts and all the other stuff, what holds me back is that they can't make you younger inside. Now that I would go for.
Complain about this comment
312, ish-ish.
We could make this a nation-wide (or world-wide) questionaire. You don't have to have Italian blood to participate.
I said, above, that I could only answer yes to two traits. But I keep thinking about the temper thing. I blow up about every five years, but when I do I make up for all the years I didn't, becoming just short of physically violence (usually). I am not sure how to rate that.
Complain about this comment
312, ish-ish.
As for the Mafia, some people were nuts enough to see a certain glamour in it, and I can think of people I met who were rather disappointed that my family was not mobbed up. We can attribute that looney attitude to Hollywood.
Complain about this comment
Re the hyphenated Americans - in my great-grandfather's time most people here referred to others as a 'Swede', a 'Frenchie', 'Scotch', a German or 'Deutcher', Dutchman, or the like. In a country where a very great number were first, second or third generation immigrants, this made sense. And the diversity was much more apparent at a time when the cultural differences were still obvious -
My Great-grandfather and his sons played for French Catholic dances as well as Scotch-Irish, even when they had trouble understanding their host's speech and had to be sung the tunes that were requested, although once the whiskey bottle was passed around all this was easier. But also there were terms in currency like 'damn Yankee', 'holy britches', 'Grit', 'Jew', 'stupid Indian', and the very frequently used unmentionable, unprintable, never-to-be-heard-again term for a person of Mrs. Obama's heritage. But mostly even this was said in a thoughtless, friendly way, not as an insult, with hatred, but just as a matter of identification in conversation.
In that time and place, a hundred years ago in the upper Mid-West, the other kinds of folk were not so much the enemy as was the weather, the struggle to get on with life, and maybe the railroads or the 'bosses'. I am told that my people were Scotch-Irish and antipapists, and so, I presume, 'Orange'. This certainly came to an end when my grandfather, the piano player in the group, married (for the second time) and died a Catholic.
All those groups seem to have intermarried to a great extent in the next generation, so that my dad and his sibs had to search out any specific European heritage, beyond a few family stories and the music, which is the clearest evidence of a Scots heritage. Today my sibs and cousins are just Americans - with a tenuous heritage by our surname, geneologically diluted and diffuse.
An editorial appeared in my local newspaper today, written by Leonard Pitts of the Miami Herald. His essay revolves around Clint Eastwood's new movie 'Gran Torino', but his point is that we Americans have somehow lost some of our civility by adopting an exaggerated 'sensitivity' to others' sensibilities.
In the movie Eastwood's character has gone to the same barber for years, an Italian with whom he trades insults relentlessly. One core paragraph has:
"Archie Bunker and Walt Kowalski (the character Eastwood plays) are icons of a white America that is fading away - meaning not simply one that was freer with ethnic insult, but one where it was possible, among friends, to speak those insults in good humor, with no malice intended or imputed."
From the photo accompanying the column, Mr. Pitts is black ( should I have capitalized that?) Cracks are appearing in our old prejudices every where. Mr. Obama is teaching all of us that this is at last the time we can allow ourselves to relax. It ain't over, but maybe we can admit that the thaw is here.
KScurmudgeon
Complain about this comment
316, KS.
I enjoyed your comment. Every word of it.
Complain about this comment
KS (316), Me too!
Peace
ed
Complain about this comment
For Chronophobe, with thanks
Peace
ed
Complain about this comment
#313
Marby,
Only you can do that.
Sam
Complain about this comment
Ms Marbles,
So you could breathe stale foul air?;-)
ed
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#309. SamTyler1969: "So now people speak English because of Hollywood and not the historical spread of English speaking peoples?"
You can laugh all you like, but the "historical spread" ended with the British Empire. The Entertainment Industry (mostly located in Los Angeles) is responsible for the spread of English to nations who were never subjected to British colonial masters.
"Even in California people choose to live in the bay area or San Diego. LA is a sprawling Hyperburb. I admit, I don't like it."
I think you'll find that more come to Los Angeles than depart from it. Admitting that you don't like it hardly makes you an unbiased observer.
"I offered the take out test, and the nationalities test"
About the former, you apparently drove in a deserted area; every type of cuisine can be found here - just because it's not on some crowded High Street doesn't mean to say it isn't available. And virtually every nationality is present in Los Angeles, quite as many as in London or New York.
"As a follow on, re the old fat and bald. There is dignity, and vanity. I choose, others may also. If you are a middle aged guy who travels and dines a lot, it does take a toll."
Ever heard of discipline? Just because the food (and the wine) is available should not mean that you stuff yourself - obesity is one of the great medical problems of our time, leading to an increase in"bad" cholesterol, higher blood pressure and a predisposition to strokes and heat attacks. With regard to liposuction having an adverse effect on cholesterol, I made a quick Google search, thinking you might be correct. You appear not to be as this article indicates and another, here,
states:
Liposuction did not alter blood pressure, or plasma LDL-cholesterol, TG, HDL-cholesterol, and fasting glucose concentrations throughout the duration of the study
Today, unless direct comparisons are made, there is no way that cosmetic surgery can be detected when done by a qualified and experienced surgeon. Check your local supermarket checkout line for the tabloid reports, but the rich and famous have all had good "work" done. Like all surgery, mistakes are made, and clients become addicted to "improvements" which look neither attractive nor natural, but I think you would be surprised to know the names of those who have had a little help - and I don't mean Joan Rivers!
Lastly, fat relocation. In many cases it is reabsorbed into the body and lasts no better than any other "filler", but if you're writing about a part of the anatomy below the waist-line, you're correct - but there are far better techniques available these days, techniques which my anesthetist mentioned just before I had surgery. I understand that it involves sheets of "fascia" from cadavers. Happily, it's never been a problem for me!
Complain about this comment
About the global importance of LA:
Mr. Cunard has a point, though I suspect we wouldn't agree on the nature of the influence.
To my way of thinking, LA is a the physical locus of the Universal Dream Factory, and has a global influence in shaping norms of expectation and desire. As the RHCP sing: "It's understood that Hollywood/Sells dreams of Californication:
For every 10 Hollywood movies that challenge normative attitudes, behaviours, or desires, there are a 1000 that articulate, elaborate, and reinforce dominant social paradigms (class, gender, racial, national, regional . . . ). There's a reason Joe McCarthy went after Hollywood the way he did. Control the dream works, and you can really shake things up.
OK, I just made that ratio up. But it's something like that.
The Chili Peppers singing "Californication" live here.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
Complain about this comment
Ed,
Keep up the good fight. Power to your keyboard.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
Complain about this comment
Mr. Cunard, Sam69,
Thanks for that info on the Liberties.
Didn't Peter try that on Family Guy?
I still don't understand how such anomalies could persist beyond the Middle Ages. Am I correct to assume these enclaves are now subsumed by the greater City administration? No more refuge from the bailiffs?
Oh, and Sam, you could always re-emerge as Marcus Aurelius III, spouting cut and paste stuff from the Socialist Worker's Party website.
That would be fun, for a while.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
Complain about this comment
Wow, and here I thought the Republicans were figuring they were out of touch simply on issues. Based on the article I just read from Webb's quotation use, it appears that lack of responsiveness isn't just a matter of issues, it's also a matter of race. Then again, I've written before that the RNC is typically for rich white men even though they mostly get their political support from blue collar whites(of course, the blue collar class has been deceived something fierce as a result).
The GOP has truly fallen since the time of Lincoln. Before I became better informed as a result of Bush's idiocy, I actually thought I leaned their way. I dunno what I'd be considered politically, I'm guessing centrist since I have views that fit neither with the left nor the right.
I'm fascinated. The observation I made nearly 2 years back was totally accurate. I didn't think I was that astute, given that I'd only been intently watching since 2 summers ago.
I'm reentering college again, majoring in psychology and minoring in history. Given some of the predictions and commentary I've made since I joined this website, what sort of career could I get into with a psych doctorate and a serious minor in history? I don't really want to be yet another empty "talking head/pundit" I see so often on tv news channels.
So far, the best I've come up with is writing tour books for USA tourists on not just locations, but also how to interact with the foreign society in question. I figured it would help with foreign relations, since every time I read a travel destination book I wonder how to interact with the locals as to avoid offense and have a good time.
An acquaintance once suggested I get into the military and actually do real world "spy" jobs. That would mean interacting with the locals at whatever location on behalf of the US military to reach an understanding.
Does anyone have any ideas as to what sort of career I should get into, given that I can read people well and predict politics fairly easily, even before I receive the psychology doctorate I'm pursuing?
Complain about this comment
America has gone race crazy...that is racist in it's self. Multiculturalism, if it ever did mean anything, has turned out to be nothing more than a PC code word for anti-white, i.e. anti British-European, racism in America. No one knows what will happen next, that is why things are restless now. However, for all the big talk, American whites have been more than tollerent and accepting of hard changes for us, for the past 30 years, but now are seeing their hopes for an equal society dashed by unwanted crime, unfair illegal immigration, disregaurd for our language, history and traditions, endless foreign wars, colored racism reverting back to segregation and/or talk of the total destruction of British-European values and government here---American whites are getting angry and frustraded by being taken forgranted and used---the forces of darkness are awakening the great, mighty eagle of traditional America. This said there should be restlessness, enough is enough!
Complain about this comment
#326.chronophobe: "I still don't understand how such anomalies could persist beyond the Middle Ages. Am I correct to assume these enclaves are now subsumed by the greater City administration? No more refuge from the bailiffs?"
Yes, but Bailiffs are still alive and well. They can even serve divorce papers and evict homeowners for not paying their Council Tax (similar to Property Tax) known as "the rates" in years past. I don't know how it is in other parts, but here a delinquent taxpayer has five years before a property can be seized and sold to satisfy the debt; it would seem that the British are far less forgiving. According to The Guardian, 1.2 million people received a court summons last year, with nearly 600,000 visited by bailiffs after falling behind with council tax payments.
Complain about this comment
Or maybe my guesses were just lucky to be accurate. I suppose even a goof like me gets it right once in a while, if only by accident.
Complain about this comment
RWBennett 328
"American whites are getting angry and frustraded by being taken forgranted and used---the forces of darkness are awakening the great, mighty eagle of traditional America."
Are you sad that a non-white has been elected President?
"The forces of Darkness"
..... are you another manichean dualist like Bush, who can only see things in black and white .... or do you just not like other-coloured people?
"great, mighty eagle of traditional America" .... is it going to start a war on minorities in the USA (how inclusive) or just #@%* on them from a great height?
oh, and finally ....
"However, for all the big talk, American whites have been more than tollerent and accepting of hard changes for us, for the past 30 years"
Gosh yes - letting them black folks ride the same bus, eat at the lunch counter, even go to the same school ..... oooooh, my that's tolerant.
In the interest of debate I used to be tolerant of your rantings RW, but my limit is approaching fast.
Ciao
Complain about this comment
#328 RW
Aren't members of your so called 'race' in the minority now anyway?
Complain about this comment
331. RomeStu:
RWBennett (328) has rather given himself away there, I think, with that 'thirty years'.
Sounds more like the BNP to me: just substitute 'British lion' for 'American eagle'.
(They've got very clever about coding their messages since the Race Relations Act -- and so they don't overtly breach the BBC 'House Rules' -- but the messages themselves haven't changed.)
Distasteful.
Complain about this comment
331 that racist thicko lost any respect a long time ago and though he speaks racism at every opportunity they still post his racial taunts. however I suspect that if you wanted to play the "game" you could refer him to the mods with an argument showing why and they could decide.
Still it does prove to all that racism is alive and well. which is I suspect why they allow it.
Complain about this comment
gordon Bennet RW
" disregaurd for our language"
LOL
sorry to troll
Complain about this comment
334. happylaze wrote:
"Still it does prove to all that racism is alive and well."
And why, tempted though I was, I did not refer it.
Complain about this comment
I am baffled, it seems no one but me is
concerned enough to mention the
suffering of the Palestinian People in
"Gaza". I am also expecting that
these "comments"will be ignored!.
Never mind it's not us but others who are
suffering,so why worry!.
Wilf Clarke.
Complain about this comment
337 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/obamas_republican_fans.html
some do care.
Complain about this comment
337 wilf_can2 wrote:
"I am baffled, it seems no one but me is
concerned enough to mention the
suffering of the Palestinian People in
"Gaza". I am also expecting that
these "comments"will be ignored!.
Never mind it's not us but others who are
suffering,so why worry!."
Wilf - you are not only baffled ..... you are on the wrong blog. This one is not about Gaza.
If you read the Editor's Blog from the other day you will find 100s of postings about Gaza.
Complain about this comment
336 british-ish / 334 happylaze
I'll tell you what else is "alive and well", or rather, in both cases 'alive and sick', is the
'political correctness' that now seems to grip many white Americans. In this process and in regard to 'race', black Americans are not being held to the same standards as whites. Thus men like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and others, get away with making racist statements that, if made by a white clergyman or politician, would cause an uproar - and howls of wrath from the Sharpton and Jackson camps.
You've condemned rwbennet in 328 for what you perceive as racist comments, and I'm not about to defend them, but the thing to consider is whether you would hold a black person to standards you expect of him. From what I observe, I doubt it. Consider this: Were a white presidential candidate found to be attending a church led by a racist white preacher, in short order his candidacy would be dead in the water, but not so in the case of Barack Obama. Why?
If you were to regard this a case of
'reverse racism' you'd be right.
In 316 KS wrote: "An editorial appeared in my local newspaper today, written by Leonard Pitts of the Miami Herald. His essay revolves around Clint Eastwood's new movie 'Gran Torino', but his point is that we Americans have somehow lost some of our civility by adopting an exaggerated
'sensitivity' to others' sensibilities."
I'm not sure how 'civility' fits into this picture. Being 'civil' is good conduct, but P.C. with its "exggerated sensitivity to others' sensibilities" demonstrates a lack of moral fibre and honesty that allows others to behave in an unacceptable manner without rebuke or condemnation. I suspect it is this that frustrates rwbennet.
To me political correctness is a manifestation of both dishonesty and cowardice, among other things involving a pretense of believing things that individuals really do not. It also embraces a big dose of naivety.
Today in America, Canada and the U.K. it is particularly rampant. In this process, if someone else is angry over something and toward us, the attitude of the P.C. crowd is that 'we' must have done something wrong to make them 'mad'. 'We' must have angered Iran, Syria, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Taliban - maybe even Robert Mugabe! Evidently these other people, our opponents and adversaries are without sin, or guile, or ambitions, or plain dishonesty.
Complain about this comment
#337
And some care here
Complain about this comment
340 there was no racist preacher at Obama's church.
Complain about this comment
340. At 8:55pm on 14 Jan 2009, robloop wrote:
336 british-ish / 334 happylaze
I'll tell you what else is "alive and well", or rather, in both cases 'alive and sick', is the
'political correctness' that now seems to grip many white Americans. In this process and in regard to 'race', black Americans are not being held to the same standards as whites. Thus men like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and others, get away with making racist statements that, if made by a white clergyman or politician, would cause an uproar - and howls of wrath from the Sharpton and Jackson camps."
Of course the simple facts that more blacks per proportion are in Gaol, there is but one black in the Senate and hopeless representation in the Congress and in major boardrooms means nothing.
Whites are being held to a higher standard apparently.
"You've condemned rwbennet in 328 for what you perceive as racist comments, and I'm not about to defend them, but the thing to consider is whether you would hold a black person to standards you expect of him. From what I observe, I doubt it. Consider this: Were a white presidential candidate found to be attending a church led by a racist white preacher, in short order his candidacy would be dead in the water, but not so in the case of Barack Obama. Why?"
Fascinating. Jimmy Carter and Clinton both were governors of States where rascism was and is fairly endemic.
But this did not stop them from becoming president - why was that?
No one quoted the lynching quotas from Georgia and Arkansas
"I'm not sure how 'civility' fits into this picture. Being 'civil' is good conduct, but P.C. with its "exggerated sensitivity to others' sensibilities" demonstrates a lack of moral fibre and honesty that allows others to behave in an unacceptable manner without rebuke or condemnation. I suspect it is this that frustrates rwbennet. "
Rascism is rascism and is utterly unacceptable.
The fact that many rascists are upset they cannot insult people the way they used to is actually a good thing.
"To me political correctness is a manifestation of both dishonesty and cowardice, among other things involving a pretense of believing things that individuals really do not. It also embraces a big dose of naivety."
To me rascists etc are never convinced by rational argument, since the prejudice is of itself irrational.
If so-called political correctness means that Gays, disabled, blacks etc can get about without being abused then it is working a treat and should be encouraged and advanced.
" 'we' must have done something wrong to make them 'mad'. 'We' must have angered Iran, Syria, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Taliban - maybe even Robert Mugabe! Evidently these other people, our opponents and adversaries are without sin, or guile, or ambitions, or plain dishonesty."
So let us not bother examining our own conduct. Let us freely abuse black people, moslems, gays, jews etc, criticise all who oppose us as "irrational and evil (like Stalin) and the world will then be a better place
After all the 1933-45 period was a time of idyllic understanding and peace as we are all aware.
Complain about this comment
With regard to earlier comments relating peoples voting preferences to their age: it's often seemed to me that younger people tend to think more in terms of "What should be", and older people in terms of "What is". I think that these perspectives are complementary, and both are useful when looking at any given situation. This seems to me to perhaps be linked to voting patterns? Any thoughts on this, or am I spouting rubbish again?
Complain about this comment
Within all governments and cultures there will be struggle and unrest. It is the human condition. It is up to us to decide what kind of people we are going be regardless of our current stations in life.
The more we all learn to listen to each other the more we learn to understand each other. It is easy to criticize and put down something you don't understand. It is much harder to face new and uncomfortable ideas or situations with courage and understanding.
As an American, I have not always been involved in or happy with our political process. Our elected officials are a reflection of who we are as a collective people. If we don't like what we see, we much change ourselves.
Change on any scale isn't easy. Nothing worthwhile usually is easy.
Complain about this comment
Re: "Gallic is spoken very little in Scotland.... close to dying out..."
How can you tell?
I'm being facetious. It was actually easier for me to understand my conversations in Scotland than in Yorkshire, where I walked around with a perpetual look of incomprehension on my face.
I love my country, and am optimistic about our recovery. I also enjoyed travel in other countries including our near neighbors and a goodly chunk of the UK. Wherever I roamed I found people with very strong regional identities (just like home). And everyone was friendly, helpful and very often willing to share jokes and hospitality. As someone from the states, the humor was occasionally at my expense (especially from the Irish) but it was never mean-spirited and usually lead to food or drink. (I left England with a strong preference for Manchester United.)
When economy gets back to normal, it would be nice to travel again: Asheville, NC, here I come! Back to the Lake District! Yorkshire (with a translator)! Inverness! Banff! BC!
Complain about this comment
BrightonStevie, I know people in all age ranges who voted for Obama - Republicans and Democrats alike. Maybe we finally came to the conclusion that "what is" needed to be closer to "what should be." after the huge divergence between the two in last last few years.
Complain about this comment
View these comments in RSS