Obama's intriguing CIA pick
First: thanks so much to all who have left such kind messages.
I am deeply aware that our situation is hardly worth mentioning when compared with the suffering of other parents and other children. We brought our boy home from the hospital. And we can pay the bills.
Dave_h - for my money - hits the nail on the head with the simple fact that the US system is just so much more expensive, per capita, yet doesn't deliver commensurate results.
The challenge for Mr Obama is not to spend more but to spend more wisely and fairly.
I always thought his line about watching his mum haggle with the healthcare companies while she was dying of cancer was one of the more genuinely moving sections of his stump speech: it will be fascinating to see whether, in four years or eight, that situation is unthinkable here.
Meanwhile, the first really interesting and risky decision of the Obama presidency (alright - the second after HER) is the choice of Leon Panetta as the head of the CIA - a choice to be formally announced soon.
I remember meeting Mr Panetta some time ago and coming away with a sense of shock at how gentle and courtly he was - genial, relaxed, softly-spoken and solicitous in a manner that almost no senior public servant ever is (Andy Card would be the nearest, in my experience).
The case against him seems to be that he is not tough enough to take part in interrogations. Not of bad guys (though he would be a great "good cop"), but of CIA guys who apparently like to keep their business to themselves.
Perhaps this is a signal that they have to grow up.
I see the always sensible Sam Donaldson thinks Panetta will not make it through the confirmation process - but if Obama is really serious about imposing his will on the bureaucracy he may feel this is a battle he has to win.
I suspect this is a better take on the matter than Sam's.
This stuff about who checked with whom just does not matter, and Dianne Feinstein risks looking a bit behind the curve if she makes too much of a fuss...
UPDATE:
I see the Obama team are planning to get a TV doctor - albeit a well qualified one - to lead the nation's medical care.
Wow! My colleage Robert Peston for Chancellor of the Exchequer? Christiane Amanpour for Defense? Wolf Blitzer for transportation? (He could do those airport announcements: "Caution, the moving walkway is ending... ")
Hello, I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~02~RS~)
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The ostensibly partisan appointment of Leon Panetta to head the CIA taints what has been an outstanding record in thoughtful Cabinet appointments. His role as Chief of Staff during the Clinton Administration does not make Panetta a logical candidate to head a critical intelligence agency. It is possible, however, that he may have acquired special Inquisitorial skills as a professor at the Jesuit-run Santa Clara University which could prove vital during future crusades. A lousy choice in my opinion; hope the Republican minority in Congress denounce for what it is: cynical partisanship.
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Sam Donaldson "always sensible"?
Obama should have not only given DiFi a "heads up," but should have sought her advice before choosing a CIA director, in my opinion. Feinstein is one of my senators, and while I do not always agree with her positions, there is no question that she is someone who matters and whose opinions should be taken into account.
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As far as I'm aware, this is the first (albeit rumoured) nomination where the nominee's qualification has been queried. That's a pretty good record so far, so I would suggest that Obama - and Panetta - are given the benefit of any doubt.
As for the other story of today, Harry Reid's stance on Burris is just plan dumb. He backed himself into a corner and now looks blinkered and thoughtless.
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Hopefully the nomination of a man that reminds me of the Opus Dei does not mean the "change" that Obama has been talking about does not involve embracing ultra-conservative theology, misogyny, more secrecy than we had the past 8 years, and unconditional support to fascist dictatorships.
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To#1Dominickvilla
Have you ever been 'inquisited' by Jesuits?
If you have not and you have a choice, may I suggest you choose water-boarding instead.
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I like Obama's choice of Panetta. Why does Obama have to please people who were less than oppositional to false imprisonment and
torture, spying and wire-tapping without a warrant?
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On the one hand, choosing an outsider to head the CIA is a good choice. It breaks with the "old boy" network, and gives a good chance to clean out the Bush political appointees that have gotten in the CIA.
On the other hand, Panetta is a veteran of the Clinton Administration, which also lied about Iraq, and was also known for politicizing things.
(Of course, a new rumor is that Obama may name Panetta Commerce Secretary instead.)
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Justin:
[Obama's intriguing CIA pick]
It is a very intriguing pick for the CIA....But, maybe he will be the guy for the job!!!!
~Dennis Junior~
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The CIA director is a manager, not someone who personally participates in the intelligence gathering and analysis process. Much better to have a strong and decisive manager who isn't a product of the inteliigence community than someone who grew up with the spooks but can't manage.
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I suspect that Obama did not discuss the appointment of Panetta because he knew there would be opposition. This way it is, more or less, a done deal. It may have bruised Feinstein's ego, but, oh well....
For what it is worth, it is my impression that CIA agents, at least abroad, are pretty pleased with themselves, but not that clever. Maybe Panetta can work on that.
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Justin,
Firstly I'd like to echo the best wishes to you and your family, my thoughts and prayers are with you.
When we want to turn a business around we generally bring someone in from the outside, often from outside the industry. A pragmatic, softly spoken delivery of the facts that insiders do not see is often needed just to start change. Perhaps this is the objective and if so I applaud it.
As for appointments how about Eric Cartman for Social Services? If a journalist, why not a cartoon character?
Change Sam
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Ref 5
"Have you ever been 'inquisited' by Jesuits?"
Two years in Jesuit schools was enough for me.
In any case, Panetta has nothing in his record that suggests even a semblance of qualification for the post. Regardless of how people may feel about the CIA, the services they render are vital to our security and putting a man with no credentials in charge will not only threaten its effectiveness but will demoralize the agency.
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Justin,
Like you, I am a Brit living in the US who is lucky enough to have good medical insurance. Having experienced the system, I can see why some people over here think it is so good.
Recently I went to the doctor with a mysterious and painful rash. Within four hours I had seen a dermatologist, had a biopsy, 18 blood tests, an echo-cardiogram, and an ultra-sound test to see if I might have an aortic aneurysm. I felt truly well-cared for and also quite scared. I had wondered if the rash was shingles or if it might have been caused by my hot water bottle. The conclusion was that it must have been the hot water bottle.
I am sure that my GP in the UK would have just told me it wasn't shingles and to stop using a hot water bottle and see if it gets better. The outcome would have been the same at a fraction of the cost.
I am not criticising the doctors I saw, who were very knowledgeable and professional and (I'm sure) gave me exactly the right diagnostic tests. But this kind of luxury care for the lucky few cannot be sustained if the medical system is to give value for money. Whatever it's faults, a medical culture that doesn't try to provide the "best care money can buy" and instead listens to the judgements of an organisation like the National Centre for Clinical Excellence (NICE) is bound to deliver better health to the population as a whole.
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Picking Panetta for Director of the CIA was just the kind of dumb choice a tyro like Obama would make, one inexperienced man picking another. When he guts the disliked but very effective policies we've had these last few years (there hasn't been a successful terrorist attack on the US since President Bush's policies went into effect although al Qaeda and others have tried hard and often) there will surely be another successful attack on the US. The liberal feel good and make everyone love America again policies are the stupidest mistake America could make. When it happens as it inevitably will, Obama will be impeached...or worse, much worse. Only then will most Americans wake up to the horror of the mistake they made last November.
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I'm willing to give Panetta a chance. Maybe part of our problems here is that we keep hiring the same types of people for the same jobs and then we expect different results. A little personality change might be good for us.
And we're all glad your boy is alright Justin. It's a big adjustment, but at least it's something that can be treated. Best of luck and our prayers are with you.
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#15
Marcus,
Let's recap. Al Qaeda attacks the US every 10 years. Since 1970. No reported attempts or suspects on Bushes watch except 9/11/01. Hmm. So Bush was the first (and we hope the last) President whose team dropped the ball, and allowed a successful attack.
All the guys they foiled and paraded in front of the cameras? Umm. Yep. A name? they caught? Umm? Yep. Bin Ladens taxi driver in Kabul? Jose Padilla, a gang kid?
At least MI5 caught and prosecuted some losers who tried. All we have from the Bushies is 'We fought them in Iraq so they couldn't come here'. We couldn't even catch some losers who couldn't wire a plug.
Like a guy who could kill a thousand US civilians for Bin Laden would rather set road bombs in Bagdhad.
La la la. Thousand year Reich.
Thanks for making 2009 fun!
Hysterical Sam
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There are certain picks I disagree philosophicy: Eric Holder for AG and his labor pick who is too cozy with the labor Unions.
But Paneeta has no experience or expertise in this area. The CIA is to spy, gather information and yet act covertly against our enemies.
Just because appeasers like Jimmy Carter want it aboloshied does not make it a good idea.
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I have never dealt with the CIA (although I have
had dealings with other agencies), so you have
to divide my $.02 in half, but here is what I think:
The Bush administration basically destroyed
the CIA by appointing Porter Goss as its head,
another politician. The destruction of the CIA
was basically orchestrated by Rumsfeld and Chaney,
who wanted to bring intelligence under the
control of the DOD, and thereby under their
control.
From my point of view, the CIA has gotten
a bad rap, and the proof of it is that many
senior operatives left when the Bush administration
started micromanaging it. This includes the
torture stuff. This is probably not well known,
but several books have been written about it.
So, now we have Panetta. If the CIA's problem
was merely one of not getting direct access
to the President, then perhaps he could solve
that problem. But, at this point, my understanding
is that the CIA's problem is recruitment and
retaining of experienced operatives, and
Panetta will probably make the situation
on that front worse, not better.
Feinstein is right - the application should
be withdrawn, and Panetta, who is great
at managing teams, should be put somewhere
else.
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'Change we can believe in' has shown its true face: A parade of Clintonistas, with Herself as Homecoming Queen. It places her third in line of succession if, heaven forbid, calamity strikes at the top echelons of government.
One of President Bush's failings was in relying on talent from his dad's team, and by choosing people based more on passionate political loyalty than competence.
Himself promised this would not be the case going forward.
Leon Panetta was chief of staff in the Clinton White House--a group of people who were incapable of recognizing truth, much less telling it. And he's to be head of CIA?
Does Himself really truly understand that there are bad people in the world who hate the West and are dedicated to destroying it?
Does He believe He can smile that certain smile, and all the jihadists will lay down their arms and embrace him?
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To#13Dominicvilla
Please forgive me if I offended you.
I am sorry if the Jesuits are a difficult issue but you have obviously learned from them or from someone else about how to state your thoughts clearly and logically. I always enjoy your posts.
However, I will still disagree with you about Panetta. I think he is a good choice. I do respect your opinions and always read your posts.
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If Panetta is a Jesuit, or Jesuit-educated, then he will be aware no doubt that of the irony that 'waterboarding' was invented by the Holy Inquisition.
Many of the victims died; struggling to breathe, in panic they drew the wet cloth held over their faces into their throats and choked to death.
A little piece of history that unhappily appears to have escaped some, but presumably not those members of the CIA who adopted it. And who presumably at least learnt a little from the Inquisition's technical failures, if not the fact that the vast majority of its victims confessed not to what they had done, but to what their interrogators wanted them to have done . . .
Possibly knowledge of that kind led him to appreciate that that is not a technique of interrogation, but one of torture pure and simple.
The CIA has so often behaved like a lawless bunch of renegades with no responsibility and less morality, that I would have thought a Jesuit background might be just the thing to reform it.
But why this penchant in American politics for giving old men jobs anyway?
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In the same vein as GHW Bush served as the Director of the CIA for President Ford, Leon Panetta has the potential to be a terrific director for Obama.
Panetta's intelligent and quiet ruthlessness and intense loyalty mark him as a man Obama wants whispering in his ear when the door is closed, but not on the front pages of the Washington Post.
This is however the last nail in the coffin regarding any kind of Change I Can Believe In. Clinton's former Chief of Staff was the pitbull (without lipstick) of the Clintonistas, and has now surrepticiously been nominated to serve the Democrat that rocketed to power up through the Chicago machine.
Thank you for your contributions America, the election is over, the bus is turning left and you get no change.
It's politics as usual.
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I was just watching an interview with Rachael Maddow and an ex-CIA big-wig. Apparently both Feinstein and Rockefeller went along with Bush's torture policy. That makes it obvious why Obama did not consult them about the Panetta appointment. It is also possible that Feinstein expected to be appointed to the position and that her attitude is tinged with sour grapes.
The CIA guy confirmed what we already knew - the so-called CIA misinformation concerning Iraq's weapons of mass destruction was cooked up in the White House, and then the blame placed on the CIA when the truth came out.
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Obama's most recent appointments indicate that he is planning to deliver on his campaign promises. Phew! He had me worried.
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18, ubermensch.
Obama in choosing Panetta demonstrated vision. You do not.
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Ms. Marbles, here is what the NYT reports
on Feinstein's position on interrogation techniques,
but I don't know what the truth is.
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Justin:
I have to say that the chance of Leon Panetta making it thru the conformation hearings are slim to none...But, I hope that I am wrong....
~Dennis Junior~
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Justin:
[I see the Obama team are planning to get a TV doctor - albeit a well qualified one - to lead the nation's medical care. ]
He is CNN's Chief Medical Correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta; as the 'perspective' Surgeon-General of the United States....
NB: He has not yet been given the notice from: Barack Obama regarding any offers of the job.....
~Dennis Junior~
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Justin:
[Wow! My colleage Robert Peston for Chancellor of the Exchequer? Christiane Amanpour for Defense? Wolf Blitzer for transportation? (He could do those airport announcements: "Caution, the moving walkway is ending... ")]
That is wonderful words of wisdom....
~Dennis Junior~
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Justin:
[This stuff about who checked with whom just does not matter, and Dianne Feinstein risks looking a bit behind the curve if she makes too much of a fuss...]
Dianne Feinstein, was frozen out of the contacts regarding the nomination of the presume nominee....
~Dennis Junior~
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32# Magickirin wrote
ref #26 and 24
Marbles you make your usual insightful comments.
Rachel Madow is not a credible source and her experts are highly suspect.
MSNBC is propganda tool and Maddow worked for the number1 hate radio channel in the U.S Air America
..............
Typical of the deluded rightwing, if a media outlet does not follow your views to the letter then they are evil.
15# The polar opposite of Marcus Aurelius, your bias is showing, and your lack of historical perspective.
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Re: the TV doctor "to lead the nation's medical care"
The job of Surgeon General is largely symbolic in the USA. No one leads the nation's medical care.
Historically, Surgeons General have led public health awareness campaigns, such as the campaigns against smoking and for Aids awareness.
The most widely-known achievement of the office is the warning label on alcoholic beverages.
(This isn't to say that the new Surgeon General won't assume non-traditional powers... One never knows!)
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#15 Marcus:
... the disliked but very effective policies we've had these last few years ...
Bush's policies remind me of the fool in the Vietnam war who claimed he had to destroy a village to save it. Bush, and presumably you, have no idea what this country is really about. you're willing to destroy it from the inside out so long as we all look the other way at the idoicy and the crimes of our leaders. You and Bush, et al, would have us always obligated to follow orders.
As for the lack of terror attacks, a better way to phrase that would be that there have been no attacks on U.S. soil since Bush's incompetence and inattention allowed the first attack.
All that's happened is that the internal domestic agencies charged with protecting us (think FBI) got a swift kick in the duff. The crimes of Bush and Cheney -- those actions you salute -- have done nothing to make us more secure. You can't be secure when the president is breaking the law.
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Surely as director of CIA he does not physically have to be involved in interrogations or any form of spy work directly.
I wouldn't say it was a bad pick, Panetta comes across as someone with a conscience (pressing for civil rights etc). I reckon he would help keep some of the more morally grey practices in line. That doesn't make him a bad choice or weak.
As for Bush/Cheney, well at the risk of repeating what others have said, there are alot more countries now (particularly the middle east) that have some animosity towards the states than there were before. Their foreign policy was utterly atrocious and I hope for all our sakes it doesn't come back and bite evyerone in the backside in the future
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Ref #33
MSNBC has a comentator who has a thrill coming up his leg as Obama speaks.
Nuff said
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if the post of surgeon general is merely symbolic, than gupta makes sense. he has a tv following & is quite photogenic. if the position has any teeth to it, obama should recommend someone with more experience working within a political framework.
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37 MagicKirin wrote:
Ref #33
MSNBC has a comentator who has a thrill coming up his leg as Obama speaks.
Nuff said
.......
And Fox News is a whole channel dedicated to right wing lies, US radio is infested by racist homophobic fascists who make the KKK seem like the WI, so what precisely is your tiny-minded point?
Like most on the unintelligent right you scream bias against anyone that does not share your pathology.
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Obama is putting the emphasis where it belongs on the civilized civilian aspect of government.
The judgment is clear and true in this sector of our population. A return to morality and genuine caring for one another's needs. Compassion and moderation is alive and well in our new President. A relief to return to a citizen led civilized government with military restraints. . .
and diplomatic solutions.
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Could it be that the leaking of Leon Penatta's name is little more than a signal to the world leadership that there will be a much needed, dramatic change in the way the CIA is going to be run under the Obama administration?
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Mr Panetta is a Roman Catholic with an Italian name who was educated by Jesuits. Why does that make me feel uncomfortable, I wonder.
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It was not the CIA that made the decision to go to war.It was Bush.
It has always been the case that they did include it the report that there was the possibility of error.
That makes it a not 100%sure situation there fore within reasonable doubt. No war. Should have been BUSH's decision(Dick or Don) wait see about inspectors word(blix).
The Cia were then given orders to interrogate people by Donny and Dick.SOME (probably most) in the CIA knew there was no good coming out of this interrogated information.I doubt they got promoted.
Remember this presidents team then outed a working CIA operative in what is technically an act of treason.(they did not do it with national interest in mind because if so they would not be hiding from it now).
The military generals against the war were sacked.
GW and the D&D made the CIA look worse than they ever could have done on their own.
Those that brought us torture should be left in jail.
But that would be the administration.
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Mostly Erroneous says we have not been attacked so it must have worked.
LOL that is good.
My friend farts 3 times and then shouts pop every day at 3:12 and 23 seconds.
believes it purges at demons that would steal his soul in his sleep .
If he doesn't he dies.
but he does it.
And he hasn't died yet.
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42 no more than a jewish guy with a jewish name educated a jew.
what is your point ?
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15. At 01:35am on 07 Jan 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
When it happens as it inevitably will, Obama will be impeached...or worse, much worse.
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-------------------------------------------
Seems to me you pre-election fantasy coming out again here.
I think HE gets your leg tingling.Gives you an itch you just can't reach.
And like a rabid homophobe(which I understand you are not) you lash at that which you see as forbidden fruit.
Honey
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#42 RoyBear ....
I too wonder why it would make you uncomfortable .... pejudice perhaps, or did you just have a bad pizza near the Vatican once.
Sorry to be flippant, but if you have any substantive reason that his religious persuasion or his education should make him unsuitable I'd love to hear it.
ps I'm an atheist so if I was uncomfortable with another person's religion it would leave me with few politicians to support. However anyone shown to be putting their "beliefs" ahead of a rational consideration of the good of society does indeed make me uncomfortable.
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Efforts to unite the intelligence agencies have not been completed. We need competent people with an indepth knowledge of national security, the operational requirements of the agency, and those of their domestic counterparts to ensure another 9/11 does not take place. This is one appointment that requires careful thought and objectivity, the last thing the CIA needs is another bean counter or administrative assistant.
I have been an enthusiastic supporter of Obama's policies and all his Cabinet and advisory appointments, but he blew it this time.
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14Lnewson
CLASS ONE
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I think a lot of posters are being naive. They are many on the left (especially the Code pink, Daily Kos) who believe the CIA should be abolished.
Sorry to bring them back from Wonderland.
Every nation need a covert intelligent agency.
We face threats from Islamic terrorist, Venezula terrorist and other factions. The U.N will waive their hands and do nothing.
I praise the work and service of the CIA, MI 5 and the Mossadd
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#42 roybear06
I grew up in an area where the John Birch Society ruled; but I did not become a racist. My grandfather is Native American; but I have no desire to lift a scalp. I was raised in the Roman Catholic church; but I do not support it's tenets on birth control and abortion (I left the church).
According to the stereo types of my environment I should be standing with a protest sign in front of a birth-control clinic, staggering from too much firewater, and spitting racial slurs at passing minorities.
I like to think of myself as having evolved above those things I found to be, at best, divisive and unsavory. Perhaps Mr. Panetta has also evolved beyond the stereo types assigned to him.
Making assumptions by means of stereo types is not productive.
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Justin scoffs: '"I see
the Obama team are planning to get a TV doctor - albeit a well qualified one - to lead the nation's medical care.
Wow! My colleage Robert Peston for Chancellor of the Exchequer? Christiane Amanpour for Defense? Wolf Blitzer for transportation? (He could do those airport
announcements: "Caution, the moving walkway is ending... ")"
DR. Sangey Gupta is no "TV doctor!!" He is an extremely highly respected reporter for CNN and CBS who, as the article points out, had to unexpectidly perform brain surjury 5 times on people while reporting on the beginning of the Iraq war!!! No small feat!! My God! The way you wrote that post I actually thought that Obama's appointee for Surjoun General was seriously some guy who played a doctor on some TV show such as Graze Anatomy or something!! It was only after I had read the article you linked to that I realised what this guy's real cradencials are!
For all those who are curious, the post of Surjoun General is not entirely a symbolic one. Gupta will be one of the high profile advisors who will be advising Obama on his health care overhall, but not much else. So for all those who are parranoyed over what some "TV guy" might do in a "real" government job can breath a little easier. My God Justin!! I should think you'd be extatic upon learning the news of this pick!! Gupta's views on the American health care disaster practicly merror yours, and he has done extensive very critical reporting on CNN on it!! So to have a person like that in Obama's ear? But for some reason you hate the idea! May be its because he's asociated with your arch enamy CNN?
And now that we are clear and agreed on what Obama's health care challenges will be, the question still hasn't been answered as to whether when all is said and done, asuming his reforms are passed and innacted, people will still have to pay at least somewhat out of their own pockets for medical treatments and procedures. My guess is still yes unfortunately. How very sad and embarrissing!
But regarding your suggestions for other reporters taking up US government posts, I don't know if Robert Peston would be a very good Chancellor of the Exchequer (or as we call it here in the US, Secritary of the Treasury.) Since the beginning of the financial crisis he has been practicly predicting the demise of western capitalism as we know it. I don't know if endless negativity is what a government's leaders want to constantly be hearing, rather I think people would prefer realistic positive advice and predictions.
And one last thought...don't dismiss Panetta's ability to whip dissobediant CIA opritives into shape just yet...he may appear gentle but if one dare crosses his path...
And plus, he's against torchur!! Woopee!! I never thought I'd see the day!!
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Ref 21
"Please forgive me if I offended you."
No offense taken. I hold my Jesuit and Franciscan teachers in high esteem when it comes to educational skills and even as disciplinarians, a priority often neglected nowadays, but their involvement in social and political events in countries where I lived were a major factor in my decision to reject organized religion.
I have no reason to suggest Leon Panetta is a bigot, a member of the Opus Dei, or a Vatican agent, but I definitely don't think he has the qualifications needed to restore confidence in an agency of critical importance to our national security, much less provide a clear vision for that organization.
Suggestions that his appointment may prevent torture in the future ignore the fact that such practices are authorized either implicitly or by inference by the POTUS, not Department or Agency heads. Panetta may be a good Administrator, but that is not what we need, we need a super spook.
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Now that a day or so has passed, and all
of these attacks on Feinstein are coming
out, I feel compelled to rally to her side
(as if anything I could do would help her.)
According to the NYT article I posted above,
her initial statement on interrogation techniques
was truncated when first released to the
press, prompting condemnation from
various commentators.
Nonetheless, as one of the most conservative
Democratic senators, she is apt to be
disliked by the left wing of her own party.
I find myself agreeing with her positions
about 2/3 of the time - more than with
many Republicans, so it's a little convenient
for this rift inside the Democratic party to
come to light here.
Now why is her opinion important? The reason
is that she is the chairwoman of the Senate
Select Committee on Intelligence, forming
the primary oversight in Congress on
the entire Intelligence mess that we call
a system. Not consulting her was a major
gaffe of the incoming administration, but,
I suspect, just a careless mistake.
On the bright side, however, if Panetta
does get confirmed, then Obama has
a spare Chief of Staff. If Ramn takes
a political bullet, then Obama has a
plug-compatible replacement on hand.
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Magic, I don't think that many people here
want the CIA broken up. Most posters
here just want intelligence gathering to
proceed under legal guidelines which
reflect our values as a society, which
precludes torture or domestic surveillance
without a warrant or some other
legal device which limits invasion
of privacy for US residents.
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I find myself strangely (and only partially) in agreement with Magic at #50.
Yes, indeed all nations need an intelligence service. To abolish the CIA, MI5 etc would be madness....
However I fail to see the problem of bringing in an experienced manager/director from outside the intelligence community. it sends a message to both the CIA and the world that things will be different in the next administration.
Imagine if Obama had chosen a CIA insider - there'd be uproar! So Panetta worked for Clinton! So what! Everyone with experience has worked for someone.
As was shown in the resolution of the Northern Ireland "troubles", eventually both sides must sit down and talk. It may take years and have several false starts, but if the big players don't at least make some positive overtures nothing will change.
I am more confident that this will be the case with Obama's administration .... however these things take time - we should not expect miracles.
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NoRash, you present an interesting possibility.
All that we have to do to turn the world economy
around is to feed Robert Peston some euphoria
pills, and things will instantly get better.
Is Prozac covered by the NHS?
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Mr Panetta is a Roman Catholic with an Italian name who was educated by Jesuits. Why does that make me feel uncomfortable, I wonder.
..............
Probably because you are a small-minded bigot.
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NoRashDecisions.
Please, please: USE A SPELLCHECKER
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I can't see why the choice of Panetta is so controversial. The problem with the CIA under Bush, as I understand it, was that it was controlled and manipulated by the White House who then made it a scapegoat when things went wrong.
I think that the CIA is only as good as the people in the White House.
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RomeStu (#56), certainly nations need an intelligence service, as MK states, but he misses the point. The biggest problem with the CIA has not been with its intelligence mission (although that has not been performed particularly well at times), but with its covert operations. A good example is the overthrow of Mossadegh of Iran in 1953 to protect US and UK oil interests, and to contain the Soviet Union in that region. This was thought to be a success at the time, which inspired many subsequent interventions, but all of our troubles with Iran today are rooted in that action.
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I must make a complaint about the attroshus speling on this blog.
Justin Webb started it with "colleage" followed by NoRashDecsions whose mangling of diction and grammar has to be seen to be believed - is he from Joisey?
You guys need to up your game and be some sort of role model to the bright 10 year olds reading this blog, and trying to discover something new.
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dceilar, the problem with Panetta is that
after the Bush administration wrecked the
CIA by telling them what to tell them,
including the whole Iraq WMD Valorie Plame Wilson
affair, Bush appointed Porter Goss to
head the agency.
Goss was a politician with just a little
intelligence experience, and not enough
to really understand what was going on.
After months of frustration, many senior
CIA people left, because they didn't want
an IDIOT to tell them how to do their jobs.
Goss was also seen by CIA people as
a political hack who wanted to pass
the blame for the White House's failures
onto them.
Panetta may be a very smart guy and all that,
but he has NO intelligence experience,
and he's out of his league running the CIA.
Obama is showing poor leadership in
this appointment by not listening to members
of the intelligence community, and if there
is another intelligence failure during his
tenure because of this, he'll have to answer for it.
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"Dave_h - for my money - hits the nail on the head with the simple fact that the US system is just so much more expensive, per capita, yet doesn't deliver commensurate results."
But it did for you and your son. What would the true cost (non-NHS) have been in the UK? It's comparing apples and oranges - and as happylaze noted earlier, there is no system in the US, it's like pre-war Britain (or at least, pre-1948) when everyone paid for health care.
The concept of "socialized medicine" has been anathema to generations of Americans, but only now, since modern technology and insurance costs have risen disproportionately, does the concept sound appealing. Like anything else, the quality of care will vary geographically - just as the price of gas does. And, I might add, just as it does in the UK - the so-called "post-code lottery" is frequently mentioned with regard to hospital admittance, time to operate and so forth.
Concerning Mr Panetta - surely his would be an administrative task? I don't think the CEO of Shell Oil would be expected to be an expert on the mechanics of oil drilling, but he could move his company in the right direction.
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Ref 60
"The problem with the CIA under Bush, as I understand it, was that it was controlled and manipulated by the White House who then made it a scapegoat when things went wrong."
Indeed, other problems include distorting their findings to suit Administration policies, ignoring them because they were inconsistent with our strategic goals, or because of the ambivalent nature of George W. Bush.
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"This stuff about who checked with whom just does not matter..."
No, not very much, but keep in mind that the failures of the past were not just due to missteps by the executive branch. The legislature bears an equal amount of responsibility. Indeed, the American people seem to hold it more responsible given the House and Senate's recent favorability ratings.
Look for the Senate and the House to reassert the considerable power given to them in the Constitution to both check and balance that of the President. This is just one example of the legislature saying that they're back in the game: no more rubber stamping.
I for one support them.
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"I see the Obama team are planning to get a TV doctor..."
The term "TV doctor" in the States refers to actors that play doctors on TV, especially on soap operas. I don't think that's what Justin means.
Gupta, by the way, is a practicing neurosurgeon as well as a journalist. The role of surgeon general largely being one of communicating general health recommendations to the American people, I think the combination makes him a good choice.
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cassandrina (#62), in fairness, Mr. Webb's error was probably merely typographical, in contrast to the gross illiteracy displayed by a few people who post here.
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A TV doctor indeed? Maybe he should install Repro Man instead. Why not Dean, who was the doctor that made the Obama strategy?
John W. Dean gave the 411 on that in his last book. It seems the Doctor had the bad manners to side with the Palestinians on some minor incident and has been black-balled by AIPAC. The two Deans need to get their heads together.
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To#51Dominickvilla
Thank you.
I will ask this: Do we really need a "super spook" right now? Would it not be more important to have a person with some kind of functioning moral compass in control. I agree that we need the CIA and I think that they do a difficult job in difficult times but they are tarnished by the taint of Bush/Cheney.
A leader of integrity would be helpful for their image. We do not expect this man to hide in an alley with a shoe phone. We have agents for this. I do not think Panetta is stupid and I do not think Obama is stupid. Please give it a chance. If it does not work Panetta will be replaced.
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To posters who complain about spelling, grammar and so forth
Consider this:
Not all of our posters have English as their primary language and some of us are not native born speakers of this language. Is it not more important to give fair consideration to the thoughts expressed than to make petty comments about mishaps in spelling, grammar punctuation etc.?
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As I understand it, the first task of the new director of the CIA is to convince Congress not to start a series of hearings on the CIA's behavior during the Bush administration. It's thought that the effect would be similar to the intelligence committee's hearings in the 1970s which effectively gutted the CIA of its experienced operatives.
In that light, Panetta is an excellent choice.
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"I see the Obama team are planning to get a TV doctor..."
I, for one mad moment, thought he was talking about Dr. Phil !!
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To#52Norashdecisions
I think that the post of Surgeon General is mostly symbolic and is not primary for making policy. This person's job is to promote the health policies currently wanted by the powers in government. He or she is merely a spokes-model for what our leaders want to sell.
Gupta will probably do very well.
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It is tea break for our good moderators. I have some other things to do right now so happy debating.
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Aqua, it's the youth of today with english as a first language who struggle with spelling, grammar, syntax and all that. I blame the british school system! Oh, and there's us older people who never learnt to type very well.
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Ref 72
"...convince Congress not to start a series of hearings on the CIA's behavior during the Bush administration."
I doubt President-elect Obama would make an appointment for the express purpose of ensuring or dissuading congressional hearings into CIA activities. Everything he has said and done thus far indicates he is focused on the future and has shown little interest in placing blame or finger pointing.
If investigations do take place the concern would not involve CIA misbehavior, but the potential uncovering of embarrassing directives and deliberate distortions of facts at the highest level of the Administration.
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27, guns.
I don't know whether the recent statement by Feinstein is damage control as regards her reputation, or truth. I don't know when she sponsored the bill that was vetoed by Bush. Was it after all the fuss about torture? It was also said that Jay Rockefeller shared her views on torture.
The CIA guy said that Feinstein's committee was more or less a rubber stamp and reflected the views the CIA wanted them to have. His comment went something like this, "They are like mushrooms. We feed them manure."
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Ref 70, Aqua
"I will ask this: Do we really need a "super spook" right now?"
Department and Agency heads implement the policies set forth by the President, and manage their organization with special focus on the budget allocated by Congress.
The moral compass and vision are set forth by the President, a fact that is often lost when we conveniently place blame for foreign policy embarrassments on Lt. Colonels, low ranking enlisted men assigned to prison camps, and intelligence agents asked to carry out acts that are inconsistent with our values.
What has been happening the past 8 years is not the fault of our government bureaucracy or the military, responsibility for our domestic and foreign policy rests squarely on the POTUS.
We often denounce or criticize the work of the NSA, CIA, FBI and other intelligence agencies, but the truth is that the work they do is vital to our national security, and it is a thankless and very dangerous job that few people appreciate.
In my opinion, if we had let the CIA do its job, instead of deploying a huge military force in Afghanistan and Iraq, there is a good chance we would no longer have to worry about Osama bin Laden or Al Qaeda.
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42, RayBear.
"Mr Panetta is a Roman Catholic with an Italian name who was educated by Jesuits. Why does that make me feel uncomfortable, I wonder."
I have no idea. Is your problem with Catholics, or Italians, or Jesuits, or all three? And how would that affect Panetta's performance? If you are thinking abortion rights, I would like to point out that it was an Italian Catholic that developed the first condom. And as for Jesuits, they are skilled in being able rationalize just about anything.
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53, Dominick.
You are against the appointment of Panetta. I am not. I think it is brilliant. From what I understand the CIA places a wall between itself and the executive branch. Obama is knocking down that wall, as I believe he must, and will be able to work closely with Panetta. That may be the reason for much of the opposition.
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To#79Dominickvilla
Very well stated, as always.
We are in total agreement here. People at the bottom often suffer blame for decisions made at the top.
We need our intelligence people but they can only be as effective as the leadership will allow.
I still say: Give Panetta a chance.
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I strongly support Panetta for head of the CIA and this quote will tell why:
"We have preached these values to the world. We have made clear that there are certain lines Americans will not cross because we respect the dignity of every human being. That pledge was written into the oath of office given to every president, "to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution." It's what is supposed to make our leaders different from every tyrant, dictator, or despot. We are sworn to govern by the rule of law, not by brute force.
We cannot simply suspend these beliefs in the name of national security. Those who support torture may believe that we can abuse captives in certain select circumstances and still be true to our values. But that is a false compromise. We either believe in the dignity of the individual, the rule of law, and the prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment, or we don't. There is no middle ground.
We cannot and we must not use torture under any circumstances. We are better than that."
http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/01/panetta_on_torture.php
It is my belief that there is a group within the CIA that has been teaching torture techniques and they should be removed from any positions of power. I hope that Panetta is able to uncover them and get them out of the CIA!!!!
This is a quote from an Amazon review of Tim Weiner's book about the CIA,
Legacy of Ashes.
"Hypnotized by covert action and pressured by presidents, the CIA, he claims, wasted its resources fomenting coups, assassinations and insurgencies, rigging foreign elections and bribing political leaders, while its rare successes inspired fiascoes like the Bay of Pigs and the Iran-Contra affair. Meanwhile, Weiner contends, its proper function of gathering accurate intelligence languished."
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And Panetta has demonstrated that he follows through on his principles.
Under the Nixon administration, when Panetta was a Republican, he was appointed Director of the Office for Civil Rights.
Panetta enforced the laws concerning equal education even though Nixon did not want civil rights laws enforced because Nixon did not want to antagonize Nixon supporters in the Southern states.
Panetta left Washington in 1970 to work for John Lindsey the mayor of NYC, rather than give in to political pressure to not enforce civil rights laws.
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#71
Amen to that.
Inclusive Sam
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#78, Ms. Marbles, I believe that I've been on
the same committee, at least from the
way that you describe it.
Also, I still can't read the tea leaves about
how the Democratic party is adjusting. First,
they're ready to lynch each other, and then
they have lunch together.
They were probably happier when all they
had to do was to fight the Bush administration.
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David Cunard #64: There is no NHS in the US, obviously. But there are fragments of something resembling such a system, such as Medicare and Medicade.
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cassandrina, The Notting Hill Hammer, Seanspa, Aquarazonagal, David_Cunard and others.
I feel for my own sanity I must clear some things up. First, I am not an English youth. I am an American one. Obviously English is not my second language. I am 22 and currently in college. I know I'm a despicable speller without the asistance of a spell checker!! I obviously use one on all of my other professional correspondents!! But this is not one of my papers I am writeing. This is a blog. A blog discussing many topics of which I take a great interest in. A blog on which I participate solely as a hobby. So forgive me, but I don't always feel the urjant need to spell check my posts on it. If you were all honest with yourselves, I think you would admit to not always at all times thinking before you speeck or write, especially in informal situations. And if you do, well I applaud you!! But its not me. I'm sorry. Spelling aside, unlike David_Cunard's and Seanspa's beliefs, I think my grammar is relatively good. But if you all can't accept me for who I am, then I'll just not post on this blog anymore. Simple as that. I just can't take the constant scrutiny. I've seen other posters's comments on here that are almost as bad as mine in their spelling, and yet I'm the only one, its eems, who gets called out on any mistakes. Its just not worth it. So much for interacting and engaging with, and learning about many different types of people from around the world. It sure was fun while it lasted!
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#88, are you changing your name to RashDecisions? If you are not an english youth and you are not old (and you have confirmed both) then according to my definition there is nothing wrong with the way you write. When did I call you out on anything?
FWIW I agree with Aqua.
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By the way, NRD, David may well have made comments about your presentation, but he's really old, and that's what grumpy old gits do!
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NoRash, you mustn't take criticism from these
Brits too seriously. They think that we're speaking
in public; of course, our identities are hidden,
so what does it matter if our spelling is accurate?
It's not like we're composing a doctoral
thesis here.
I'll bet that after a few brews, our Old World
cousins can't spell that well either. As a matter
of fact, if their beer is as potent as they claim,
then they probably can't even form complete
sentences after a certain time of day!
And, remember, NoRash, work is the curse
of the drinking class.
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And, NRD, if their beer is not as strong as
they say, then they are complete liars, and
we might as well discount their opinions
on grammar and spelling as well!
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Guns (#63) and Dominick (#65)
Thanks for the comments. Despite Guns reservations I think Panetta at least deserves a go at the CIA top job. If he's no good then he can go.
I remember an old BBC TV comedy called 'Yes, Minister' in the eighties (a satire on the workings of British Government). Civil servants wanted ministers who were in-experienced and weak to head their ministries so they could easily manipulate the minister and carry on with their jobs without much interference from politicians! Something tells me that is what the CIA needs; but anyway, this is a British viewpoint.
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"I had a good discussion with him. I'm confident that he understands. I am supportive. I've known him for 20 years. I know him to be a man of credibility and a man of conscience and a man of talent, and I believe he will surround himself with top-notch staff from the intelligence community."
Dianne Feinstein quote
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So Justin, what in your opinion were Messrs Carter and Obama discussing at their lunch yesterday?
I'll wager wholesale slaughter in Palestine rather than TV doctors ...
I'm disappointed by, although understand, Obama's silence, and also think that the timing of events in the Middle East has to do with the window of "opportunity" afforded by George's remaining tenure. But I also think that some carefully chosen words from the incoming president might just conceivably save lives on both sides.
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NoRashDecisions, you're 22 and engaging with politics and the wider world. Good on you. Stay engaged.
Best of wishes to Justin and family.
From a thirty-something Pom in Australia.
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#47 and my post #42. Anyone with any experience of the Jesuits and Opus Dei gets nervous about them. I have first hand experience of both, shall we say, the Vatican Old Guard and the Cosa Nostra and they frighten me. When they are allied to the CIA watch out.
Previously this same alliance gave us the Bay of Pigs, an unsuccesful attempt on the life of Fidel Castro, a succesful coup against Allende and many other major attractions of the civilised world. That's my last word on the subject. Make your own minds up.
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62. cassandrina wrote:
"You guys need to up your game and be some sort of role model to the bright 10 year olds reading this blog, and trying to discover something new."
Oh. But I thought a lot of these posts were being written by 10-year olds, judging by the kinds of insults and accusations that fly around? Or people in their second childhood anyway . . .
Don't let the ones who think their toys are better and won't let us play drive you away. (Though they often nearly do me, too. I'm still smarting a bit at a couple of things said on this blog. . .)
I've noticed that as a rule the political right consistently considers anyone with opposing views, especially those ho present reasoned arguments, 'immature'. Even when they are themselves. . .[Ducks to avoid flying brickbats]
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Curses. In 98 please insert "NoRashDecisions" at the beginning of the third para.
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Ref 88
"So much for interacting and engaging with, and learning about many different types of people from around the world. It sure was fun while it lasted!"
When we post our thoughts on a blog what is - or should be - important is the content of our message, not our grammar.
Bear in mind that one of the most facile and common approaches to "win" an argument is to discredit our opponent or competitor. That happens constantly in politics and business, and blogs are no exception. Don't let that influence your untimely departure. If anything, it should reinforce your resolve.
For whatever is worth, one of my grandsons is also in college, majoring in bio-chemistry, and even though he consistently gets As and Bs in most of his classes his spelling is atrocious. So what, he is not seeking a Nobel prize in literature!
Keep posting and bear in mind that most of us value your opinion, even when we disagree with your conclusions.
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88 NoRashDecisions
Do not take it to heart.
As my mother would say, "Only Allah is perfect." We are not Muslims, but it is a handy expression. Perhaps not in the States at the moment and certainly not on an airplane!
I particularly enjoyed #89 "are you changing your name to RashDecisions?"
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Ref 15
"When he guts the disliked but very effective policies we've had these last few years (there hasn't been a successful terrorist attack on the US since President Bush's policies went into effect although al Qaeda and others have tried hard and often)..."
Bragging about no foreign terrorist attacks on US soil since 9/11/01 ignore the fact that there were none before that tragic event. If President Bush wishes to take credit for no recurrences, should he also take responsibility for allowing the first foreign terrorist attack on US soil 8 months after his inauguration? Sorry for the rhetorical question, the answer is "the buck stops everywhere but here".
Besides, just because we now expect a President-elect to state foreign and domestic policy positions before he is inaugurated does not mean W should have been prepared to act upon the intelligence warnings he was given during his first 8 months in office...
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norashdecisions
Use a forum like this to learn toughness...
Find your principles and stick with them..
There are people here who support you...and think of what other people in more stressful positions are dealing with and how do they cope?
(Also whenever I spell incorrectly I get a red line under the word and then I right click to see the choices for a correction...)
Its the ideas that are important imo...
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Also there most certainly was a terrorist attack on US soil after 9/11.
Who perpetrated it is up to debate but:
What about the deaths from ANTHRAX?
http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090103/NEWS11/90103010/-1/NEWS
"Outside, on that morning of Nov. 14, 2001, five people were dead or dying, a dozen more were sick and fearful thousands were flooding emergency rooms.
The postal system was crippled; senators and Supreme Court justices had fled contaminated offices. And the Federal Bureau of Investigation was struggling with a microbe for a murder weapon and a crime scene that stretched from New York to Florida."
and
"That examination ( by the New York Times) found that unless new evidence were to surface, the enormous public investment in the case would appear to have yielded nothing more persuasive than a strong hunch, based on a pattern of damning circumstances, that Ivins was the perpetrator."
Please ask yourself why the anthrax case has been buried and why a man who worked for the government was considered able to use his skills to perpetrate a terrorist attack and then allegedly to commit suicide.
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#95 Adrian_Evitts
Obama is attempting to unite the nation
but I can say that it created a chill for me to see how the two Bushes surrounded him and Clinton seemed to want to join them while Carter stood more aloof.
I doubt whether the Republican rank and file quite understand how hated the Bushes are now. But imo Jeb Bush is not running because of that hatred. And people can write all they want about how the father was a good president..I doubt whether that washes with the majority of Dems though.
Obama is a better person than I am..
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And if you think I am alone in wanting Bush prosecuted for his crimes read this
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/07/advocates-of-a-special-prosecutor-for-bush-seek-an-answer-from-obama/:
“Will you appoint a Special Prosecutor — ideally Patrick Fitzgerald — to independently investigate the gravest crimes of the Bush Administration, including torture and warrantless wiretapping,”
................
People outside of America should know that there are Americans who want Bush prosecuted but our media does not commonly report on that.
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To#88Norashdecisions
Please forgive me if my comment seemed critical to you or seemed to make any assumptions about you.
I was commenting in general and somewhat about myself, in particular. I feel it is much more important to consider a person's ideas than to be critical of small things such as spelling etc.
I enjoy your posts. Sometimes I agree and sometimes I do not but your posts are worth reading. Keep writing.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
106 Carter has the decency to want to puke when in the room with so many scum.
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lol on the spelling etc.
could you understand what was being communicated. if yes leave it alone
if no then ask for clarification.
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Bethpa,
I wish to see that as well, though I have serious doubts as to the truth coming out anytime soon.on anthrax of the last 8 years.
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NoRashDecisions
I'm sorry that you feel "picked on", I actually agree with a lot of what you write. However, very poor spelling and grammar do make for very difficult reading, which spoils the communication of your ideas.
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#107, bethpa, I'll bet that Obama passes on this.
Most of us would agree that Bush II was the worst
president that we've had since... well, since we can
remember. Perhaps Ulysses S. Grant would be
in the same league.
I remember when I was growing up that my Uncle
on my mother's side would say, "Every Democrat
gets us into a war, and every Republican gets
us into a recession."
I'm not sure how he would classify Bush.
But, what positive goal would prosecuting Bush
and Cheney accomplish? In all probability,
it would further divide the country, and,
more importantly, distract the government
from the urgent work which needs to be
done to get everything back on track.
I'll bet that Obama passes.
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114 I'd agree that it would divide the country .
And I see little point in that given the number of guns that will be used to support every argument,for a while.
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and I thought it would have been 110 that was modded, oh well.
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To#110Happylaze
Did you notice the body language?
Obama seemed to be leaning as far away from our current president as he could get without standing in front of Papa Bush.
To me, Carter looked unsure of why he was even there at all, considering how much criticism he gets for his beliefs and efforts.
If the peace makers are blessed and the meek are to inherit the earth than perhaps Jimmy Carter will have a place after all.
lol to you as well.
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#88. NoRashDecisions: "I just can't take the constant scrutiny."
You'd better get used to it if you are going to succeed in your chosen work occupation; whatever you do to earn a living will be scrutinised as well as your personal behaviour.
Good manners and the social graces are as important today as they ever were - a man looking for advancement, having dinner with his employer, would (however talented) be unlikely to to progress if he ate with his mouth open or slurped his soup. Appearances do count, and so it is with spelling and grammar. Arguments you make or debate will look so much better and will have far more impact if they are in correct English.
Since you are still in college, you might consider taking an English class - to go through the next sixty years of your life being unable to write well seems a waste of a talent - it's not just ideas that count, but the ability to put them into a cohesive form, on paper, is equally, if not more important. Even if you're not sure about what you write, it will at least make a good impression!
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David_Cunard #118: '"Since you are still in college, you might consider taking an English class - to go through the next sixty years of your life being unable to write well
seems a waste of a talent - it's not just ideas that count, but the ability to put them into a cohesive form, on paper, is equally, if not more important."
I've taken 3 English classes and "gotten" (sorry) high Bs in all of them thank you very much!! I know all too well of the inexplicable importance good spelling and grammar skills are to someone, and the impression, whether good or bad, such skills will make on others!! I'm not that stupid! I don't need you to spell it out for me!! And that also goes for your lectures on the necessity for good manners!!!
If you want to point out the odd spelling or grammatical mistake, be my guest!! But if I may make two requests, I would ask that you point out other people's spelling and grammatical mistakes as well, and that you please, please, please for the love of God not lecture me on what words you want me to use or not use in my posts!! On Justin's last entry you very rudely asked me to make a New Year's resolution to not use the word "got" anymore, and to avoid the word "gotten" at all costs. As long as my grammar is correct, or according to your standards just barely meeting a first grade level, why should you give a damn what verbs I use?!
All I ask anyone but particularly you is for the freedom to post on here without fearing being thrown under the bus for every single spelling and grammar mistake!! I don't think that's too much to ask!! I am fully aware that I will face much tougher situations in life and that I had better get thicker skin if I intend to succeed, but my God!! This is a blog!! Its not a job interview!! I should be allowed to be myself on here a little bit shouldn't I? Or am I crazy?
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Seanspa I never claimed that you "called me out" on anything...I was just merely pointing out the fact that I'm not, as you had I presume thought I am, an English youth failed by the British education system based on your earlier post. I ment no offense. I appologise if I caused you any.
Thanks to all others for your encouraging words. . .
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NRD, glad to see you living up to your name. Just to clarify, my english school comment was just a joke about spelling. It was not aimed at you, and was merely in response to aqua's plea to be considerate of those who have english as as a second language. I'm sure her comment was not aimed at you either. Hell, if we were going to have a go at spelling, everyone would just have a go at happylaze (and he is english and a product of that system, so it proves my point).
Oh, and I think DC proved another of my claims.
Are you a science or engineering type? They are renowned for concentrating on what matters and so pay little attention to spelling. My father, and my eldest son, are appalling spellers. My spelling is generally better (although not my typing), but only because I am a failed engineer.
If you are crazy, it's not because you see the difference between a blog and a job application.
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119 NoRashDecisions
Where is Happylaze on this? He likes a - "spirited discussion". If I see him on another blog I'll ask him to come over.
You are doing a fine job defending yourself NRD. I'd say more but DC might start critiquing my comments. I'd then have to ask you to come to my aid.
120. That could be a claim to fame. "The British education system did not fail me." Sounds as if you view it as a resounding success. "Whaaa!" your friends will ask. "You were educated in Britain?" (No need to go into details - just leave it there.)
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seanspa #121 O I didn't see that you were making a joke. I appologise. Its interesting I thought 'happylis (weird name so I probably spelled it wrong!! I'm typing kind of fast) was an American! I saw them mention towns in the state of Oregon once or twice. But if they are truely English, then I guess it goes to show that despite some people's best eforts to present themselves as such, the British people are not spelling and grammatical wizards!!!
I didn't know that Science types are imphamous for their bad spelling, however sadly I am not one--I like Political Science, International Relations, Music, those sorts of things. So I guess I'm a rare breed since the bad spellers are not generally found in my fields of interest.
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NRD, we had a referendum some years ago and voted to expel happylaze because of his poor spelling and propensity to get into fights. If I'd known he'd end up in the state next to the one I am now in, I'd have voted to keep him in the uk.
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#119. NoRashDecisions: "I've taken 3 English classes and "gotten" (sorry) high Bs in all of them thank you very much!!"
High Bs? Lo As might be acceptable, but a low B is almost a high C, not something to crow about.
"I would ask that you point out other people's spelling and grammatical mistakes as well, and that you please, please, please for the love of God not lecture me on what words you want me to use or not use in my posts!!"
Had you been reading this blog long enough, you would know that I have, with mixed results. Those whose opinions are couched in ungrammatical and poorly spelt English are far less credible than those who can write in good, if plain, English.
"On Justin's last entry you very rudely asked me to make a New Year's resolution to not use the word "got" anymore, and to avoid the word "gotten" at all costs."
"Got" is the lazy writer's word, substituting for many others which would be far clearer; you had earlier written "I got the impression you wanted to compare and contrast further the two systems . . ." Far better to have substituted "had", "formed" or "received" for "got". In your more recent entry, you wrote "I've taken 3 English classes and "gotten" (sorry) high Bs . . " Using "received" rather than "gotten" would have been rather more attractive. It simply makes your writing more precise and, for what it's worth, more elegant.
- and "got" is not a verb, since it is the past participle of "(to) get". I know it's used frequently in America, but nevertheless, there are other and better words to use. It really doesn't take a lot of thought to choose one!
"why should you give a damn what verbs I use?!"
Because it makes your writing (and thus yourself) appear to be educated or not. Good communication requires an element of precision - the wrong verb could have very different meanings. If you want to be taken seriously, use the correct word/s, it makes such a difference.
"This is a blog!! Its not a job interview!! I should be allowed to be myself on here a little bit shouldn't I? Or am I crazy?"
Why would you behave differently in private than in a job interview? One reason employers request job application forms to be completed in handwriting is so they can gauge the potential communication skills available. Acting a part in a job interview has no value, since eventually the "real you" will be revealed. It has been said that the mark of a gentleman is that he behaves in private just as he does in public. That applies to blog posts as well as employment interviews. Like good manners, good English lasts a lifetime and sets one apart from those who possess neither.
There is no charge for the foregoing lesson.
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Pannetta? Good if not a great choice. Honorable, thinking man. Why not at the CIA helm? Has no experience?
Counting accomplishments of Mr. Pannetta's predecessors in CIA leadership position starting with Ronald Reagan presidency would not bring too many convincing arguments on behalf of experience alone.
Just a few days ago I read an article on Manual Noriega (his imprisonment in US is nearing an end). A CIA operative was quoted as saying that Noriega while in power in Panama was the most reliable and verifiable source of info relating to the whole South America. Noriega did not want to cooperate with our Nicaragua contras effort so... we dumped him from the list of our cooperatives, removed him from power and imprisoned him on questionable charges. Apparently experienced CIA bosses could not convince their President that "ears and eyes" on the whole spectrum of South America is equally if not more important than Mr. Noriega crying "uncle" as Reagan demanded.
Experience is over stressed, even when it comes to CIA. There are seasoned employees in the organization that know their jobs. What they need is a guiding leadership that emphasizes honesty, reliability and lawfulness.
We do not need experienced yes men who will stand silent while their bosses spread falsehoods to the nation.
This nation is awakening. Leon Pannetta is the right man to lead the CIA in the right direction.
By the way, there is nothing wrong with "clintonites" joining Obama. We all are missing days of prosperity and America's good, respected standing in the World that the current occupant of white House and (among others) his meek but experienced CIA leaders wrecked in mere eight years.
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NRD, we kicked DC out of the UK because his spelling was too good and he wouldn't stop telling us about it. Of course,that was pre-internet, and we didn't know he'd return to haunt us in a blog.
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#127. seanspa: "NRD, we kicked DC out of the UK because his spelling was too good and he wouldn't stop telling us about it."
Au contraire! I came to Hollywood at the invitation of Berle Adams (second only to Lew Wasserman) at MCA to meet the late Ned Tanen, about whom the less said the better; nearly all obituaries are puff-pieces.
I do not understand why people can't spell - today there are spell-checks a-plenty; why aren't they used? My much older PC has one as does this iMac. Surely youngsters of 22 can use them or is texting-style the spelling of the future? Today there really is no excuse for such errors. Since - like surgery and automobile repairs - there is a right and a wrong way to do things; I'd rather opt for the right way.
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David, I have a hang up on the use of the apostrophe. I make every effort to use it correctly. I learnt sometime ago though that if I pointed out every incorrect use, I would never actually do anything else. I therefore restrict myself to raging about it only when it directly affects me. Anyone for baked potato's?
I view a blog as merely capturing thoughts, an electronic recording of the spoken word rather than a work of literature. When I speak I stumble over words, say things I really shouldn't do, but once it's out it's out. I've actually switched from using IE to using Firefox - at Ed's suggestion - to make use of the in-built spell-checker. Unfortunately, it cannot tell me I typed IS when I meant US. This is a blog. Oh well.
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David_Cunard #125
"High Bs? Lo As might be acceptable, but a low B is almost a high C, not something to crow about."
That's your opinion. And I didn't receive (note the change of verb all for you!) low Bs! I received high Bs. That means a percentage of 85-89%. So that has the potential to almost be a low A, therefore almost meeting your satisfaction. But I still am happy with the grades I received, and no amount of snide, degrading and insulting remarks from you will make me feel otherwise!!
"Got" is the lazy writer's word, substituting for many others which would be far clearer."
Again, your opinion. I think "got" is a fine word, and I think if you did (I'm sorry) performed, a survey of the rest of the people on this board many would agree with me. And I doubt that they, or indeed the millions of other well educated people on this earth who use that word are "lazy," be that in writing or any other facit of life!! And "got" is the past tence of the verb "to get," so it is so a verb!! But I suppose its all in how one looks at a word which determines whether they classify it as a verb or not.
"Why would you behave differently in private than in a job interview?"
Are you honestly telling me that you behave in exactly the same fashon all the time no matter where you are?
I behave differently in different places because I'm human, and feel that in certain situations I don't, or shouldn't need to worry about what certain people will always be thinking of me. But that belief is rapidly disappearing I can tell you that!!
How generous of you to give me this lesson on the house, but I have to say, even if there were a charge attached, I sure as heck wouldn't pay it!!
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seanspa #129: Here here -- especially on that last paragraph!!!
Why can't everyone hold this view?
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Maybe the world would be a better place for everyone if we pass on folks who concentrate on and ponder benefits of spelling and grammar, especially on boards like this one. George Carlin once wondered, " We have spelling Bees contests, why don't we have (or have not - if you prefer) contests on logical thinking , reasoning, and ethics?". Why , indeed. If we applied these spelling bee criteria to Albert Einstein, for example, he would not look too good. Some of these excellent spellers would be tempted to call Mr. Einstein an imbecile. So - forget spelling. What counts is a thought. We all know that ad hoc creations cannot have a perfect format. But, who cares. It is not a format but content that really counts.
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dAvId -cUnArD
I have known so many people who have very limited intellects (in my opinion)..but write and speak very well. They learn how to say nothing but say it beautifully..which is perfect for a bureaucrat.
You should read e.e. cummings or James Joyce...to see what can be done creatively with the English language
Blogs is creative!
: )
( Should I pester him now Norash? for being stodgy? and lacking creativity?)
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#129. seanspa: "Anyone for baked potato's?"
Dan Quayle would be proud of you! You might also install Safari, which is available for PCs as well as their (superior) cousins, Macs. It seems quicker than Firefox and the "find" capability far easier to use, being in the upper right-hand corner rather than lower left, showing how many examples of the sought-after word there are. Try it, you'll like it! When Netscape was first available it came as disc included with a thick volume of instructions; how things have changed in such a short time - no IE, no Google and no spell-checks. Of course, with the latter there is the matter of British or US spelling. If all else fails, Google will find the correct version if "UK" is placed after the queried word - "do you mean ***" will appear.
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#112 happylaze
Its true we may never know who used the anthrax...But we do know Americans lost their lives, the US government was shut down and it was a terrorist attack and the FBI screwed up.
But why do we keep hearing on our news media that no attack occurred after 9/11?
#114 gunandreligion
"But, what positive goal would prosecuting Bush and Cheney accomplish?"
guns and religion quote
When a crime has been committed there should be consequences otherwise laws are meaningless.
They tried to change the Constituion and did not follow the Geneva Convention. It should be made clear to all that they committed crimes.
If nothing is done...we will have a future president who will take power and use the Bush administration as a precedent. I hope the future Congress will stand up to any such president who usurps power
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bethpa #133: No don't pester him (that is unless you want to.) I actually think he is plenty creative, has wonderful ideas and a sound intalect, I just also think he is rude, disrespectful and inconsiderate of other's feelings. What a shame!!
O, and he'll certainly stick you for writing "Blogs is creative." The correct formation of that sentence is "Blogs are creative." Unless you intended to write that as a joke?
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#130. NoRashDecisions: "I'm human, and feel that in certain situations I don't, or shouldn't need to worry about what certain people will always be thinking of me."
If you should go into politics or international relations, consider how past actions came back to haunt one: Mr Obama had a problem living down the Rev Wright, Governor Richardson withdrew his nomination as Commerce Secretary because of some past error in judgement, Spiro Agnew was removed as Vice-president and Bill Clinton was impeached. I feel sure these gentlemen regretted their past actions - I think you need to consider what you do and say all the time. Even e-mails have a habit of popping up at the most inconvenient of times.
#132. passtorian: "forget spelling. What counts is a thought."
But there's no point in a thought if it can't be communicated correctly. It's not like brain surgery or rocket science, correct spelling is so easy - and much more effective.
#133. bethpa: "I have known so many people who have very limited intellects (in my opinion)..but write and speak very well."
Since you have known so many, it really doesn't say much for your choice of companions, does it?:)
"They learn how to say nothing but say it beautifully..which is perfect for a bureaucrat."
Does the converse apply as well? The President-elect speaks very well with a TelePrompTer - do you suppose that secretly he is of limited intellect? After all, he will be the First Bureaucrat. Now most people can't spell that last word, but you did, so was it from memory or did your spell-check do it for you? In either case, it makes you look better than your friends of "very limited intellect".
"Should I pester him now Norash? for being stodgy? and lacking creativity?"
You certainly don't know me - hardly stodgy and absolutely not lacking in creativity.
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david
I use a spell check. On my own I would misspell bureaucrat. I have so many typos that when text messaging my writing is ridiculous..but understandable. Written English is changing because of text messaging...
"Since you have known so many, it really doesn't say much for your choice of companions, does it?:)
Sigh. The definition of "known" in this case is to be cognizant of or aware of. Thank fully you did not apply the biblical meaning of "to know".
I use outcomes to tell if someone is intelligent ...or not. Did they predict accurately and did they perform well? Bureaucrats are very good at hiding how they perform and love to obfuscate with needless verbiage. That type of person often does well in educational settings..but they are over achievers imo.and do not do well in novel and new circumstances...
I think Obama has natural intellect...He was able to use the internet successfully to build up his campaign for the presidency. That portends well for his ability to do well in novel and new circumstances.
Obama may be a creative thinker..but we will see.
"You certainly don't know me - hardly stodgy and absolutely not lacking in creativity. "
I'll assume your intentions were good when you corrected norash. He is a good writer imo..He certainly has a lot of personality in his style of writing. Don't you feel like you know what he is like? Thats a good sign for a writer imo.
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#136. NoRashDecisions: "I just also think he is rude, disrespectful and inconsiderate of other's feelings."
Thanks for the earlier words, which modesty forbids me to repeat. However, not rude, disrespectful or inconsiderate. If the relationship had been closer, it would be considered "tough love". As it is, there's no point in beating about the bush when someone has so much to offer. You acknowledge your limitations, so do something about it - you have the basis, you just need to work on it. If those whose first language can master it, surely you can do likewise - and I feel sure that you will, although better now than later. Your college tutors will think so much more of you if you turn in a paper which is well written in addition to being well thought out. In twenty years you'll remember this and be thankful some stranger urged you to better your English.
"Blogs is creative" - just a little needling prod from bethpa; she knows better than to write it seriously - remember, she can spell "bureaucrat" correctly!
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139.David_Cunard wrote: " be thankful some stranger urged you to better your English."
Shouldn't that be "improve"?
For both DC and NRD:
The editors of Collins are currently concluding that English is in the process of melding the spoken and written forms together; the result could well be a new form reminiscent of Elizabethan English (which in the written form, subordinated spelling to meaning). The 'rules' so often brought up, really date only from Dryden and it has taken us a long time to get over the influence of those who wanted to turn written English into a form of Latin.
I don't much like some of the results so far, (I love apostrophes, I think they add a certain prettiness to a page as well as simplify reading for meaning) but that doesn't mean I won't use the shorthand of texting either. (And that, btw, is a coinage we needed, unlike some others that are totally unnecessary replacements for words that already exist.)
English, since it has become a near-universal language over the last sixty years, is developing and changing almost as much as it did between about 1580 and 1620.
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British-ish makes a great point about the development of English and spelling being secondary to meaning.
To add an example, I believe there are 6 known examples of William Shakespeare's signature ... and they are all spelled differently. There is a small reference to this in the opening scene of "Shakespeare in Love" as the Bard is practising his signature with a flourish of quill.
I ascribe the standardisation of spelling in English to Dr Johnson's dictionary in the 1700s, and then the arrival later of standardised education.
As English becomes the global language (sorry France) it will undoubtedly continue to evolve.
However I find myself generally on the side of tradition in that if English is allowed to descend to the level of TXT SPK we will end up with some sort of Orwellian Nu-Speek. Double plus bad!
Or worse (but much funnier) this ..... (I can't do links, so it's cut and pasted) .... it was a spoof EU discussion paper I received about 10 years ago... (read it phonetically)
"The European Commission has just announced an agreement that English will be the official language of the EU rather than German (the other possibility). As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement, and has accepted a 5 year phase-in of new rules which would apply to the language and reclassify it as EuroEnglish.
The agreed plan is as follows: In Year 1, the soft 'c' would be replaced by 's'. Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump for joy. The hard 'c' will be replaced by 'k'. This should klear up konfusion and keyboards kan now have one less letter. ('ch' will remain the same).
There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome 'ph' is replaced by 'f'. This will reduse 'fotograf' by 20%.
In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters, which have always been a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of the silent 'e's in the language is disgrasful and they should eliminat them.
By year 4, peopl wil be reseptiv to lingwistik korektions such as replasing 'th' with 'z' and 'w' with 'v' (saving more keyboard spas).
During ze fift year, ze unesesary 'o' kan be dropd from vords kontaining 'ou' and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer combinations of leters. After zis fifz year, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrion vil find it ezi to understand ech ozer.
ZE DREM VIL FINALI HAF KUM TRU!"
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More about language ....
Italian is a totally phonetic language. Thus if you hear a word you should be able to spell it correctly if you understand the set conventions on pronounciation (there are only a very few differences from English). For those who like Italian food "ch" is always pronounce "K", thus there is no "brushetta" only "brusKetta". Buon appetito!
Learning Italian as an adult was made very simple because of this, and I gained an understanding of how hard it must be to learn English, with all it's irregularities and wierd pronounciations ..... try explaining "-ough" - 4 different ways of saying it (plough, through, though, slough - as in snakes, not "The Office").
Saying that English is not a phonetic language. In fact you could view English as the "USA" of language .... it is a melting pot of bits from various cultures, and is richer for it. Etymolgy is fascinating (pyjamas = 18th century Urdu word for baggy trousers) .... and English will lose it's richness if it degrades to a means of lowest common denominator communication.
I bear no grudge against those whose spelling is weak - we all have weaknesses. My issue is with an education system producing university-level graduates who cannot spell.
This is a problem that should be solved at junior school. (same goes for adding up, by the way).
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141.RomeStu
I think we should stick with it. The adoption of 'sulfur' in scientific papers had a rather sulphurous reception, I think. (And despite my best efforts, I see the spell checker seems to have reverted somehow and thinks the latter is wrong!)
Being interviewed for a sub's job once at a British magazine which had a US edition, I asked if the US one (edited in the UK, but printed in the US) was re-edited with American English spelling as well, since it had to be re-edited to fit a US paper format instead of a European/British one anyway. I was told, "No, they seem to like it, they think it's quaint."
And I do wish people (including me!) would stop referring to 'British' English to differentiate English from American English. It's a tautology.
(Quite irrelevantly, I totally dislike 'CE' and 'BCE' being foisted on us instead of 'BC' and 'AD'. I'm sure many people assume the 'C' stands for 'Christian' anyway and I can't help suspecting that it was invented with that likely confusion in mind. . .)
OK, yes, I did put the 'totally' in just to irritate the pedants before they get at me as well as poor NDR . . .All that stuff is so gay. Meh.
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142 RomeStu:
I meant to add to the etymological adoptions. (Thefts?) I hadn't realised until quite recently when I heard a friend talking to her mother on the phone about buying a new bed that "mattress" is Arabic.
I wonder casually if some people might not one day propose an 'ethnic cleansing' of some Englishes, and insist on substituting 'pallliasse', for instance.
Alright/all right/OK/"variants of English" then. But we talk of "musics" in musical ethnography, which I think is uglier.
When will the language war start do you think? There's only been a few rockets fired over the borders so far. Gotta warn the squirrels to make room in their bomb shelter for me.
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I'm also not a fan of "CE" and "BCE" ..... essentially still using the inaccurate birthdate of a religious figure who is not "common" to all the world.
However it is necessary to have a global dating system, and it seems silly not to use the BC/AD system that has been used in the west for 1500 years (reputedly first used by Dionysius Exiguus in 525AD - the Romans calculated dates from the foundation of Rome.
Also the Vatican still today uses a dating system based on the reign of the current Pope - 2009 is year IV of the pontificate of Benedict XVI. This can be seen on historic buildings all over Rome - to know when it was built, you must know the year the Pope who built it was elected! Confusing. You bet!
Egyptian Christians in 4th & 5th centuries used a system of "martyrdom dating" starting in the year 284AD as that was when Diocletian began to systematically persecute Christians.
I'm an atheist, so I have no religious reason for using BC/AD, but no desperate need to change it. Just because I use this system does not mean I give any credence to Christianity.
Incidentally, BC and AD are inconsistent as terms ... one from English, the other Latin. The venerable Bede made common usage of AD, but he used a long Latin phrase meaning "before the incarnation of our true Lord", which later got changed to BC.
Can anyone enlighten us as to how the English "BC" came to dominate over a Latin term.
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NoRashDecisions wrote:
seanspa #129: Here here -- especially on that last paragraph!!!
Why can't everyone hold this view?
................
Sorry NRD, you should have written "Hear, Hear". Please try harder.
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British-ish ..... so the squirrels are out and about again!
Ethnic cleansing of the English language? Sadly lots of sad BNP types will probably love the idea.
But since the "Angles" were immigrants, will have to cleanse English of itself, and all go back to speaking Celtic languages?
Or will just set up some kind of British equivalent of the Acadamie Francaise?
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146 Hammer
If you must persist in lambasting NRD for his spelling, please at least also respond to his ideas as well.
We're all aware that NRD's spelling is not perfect, but he has consistently injected valid points into this and other debates.
I've stated already that I am a traditionalist who believes that spelling and grammar are important, but let's leave the pedantry for posts that are actually incomprehensible.
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146. The Notting Hill Hammer wrote:
NoRashDecisions wrote:
Here here -- especially on that last paragraph!!!
Why can't everyone hold this view?
...............
Sorry NRD, you should have written "Hear, Hear". Please try harder.
147. RomeStu wrote:
British-ish ..... so the squirrels are out and about again!
Not as such, no . . But from their Notting Dale Oak (they prefer the older usage of "Nutting Dale", obviously, but it would just confuse people hear unless they were to here it spoken instead of written) they asked me to pass a message to NoRashDecisions: "There, there! Never mind."
They said they were pleased they hadn't been forgotten and were intrigued to hear of a new fall of language nuts and if they had a sort of acorny taste, they might possibly come out of hibernation again.
They've agreed to take them as a deposit for palliasse space as a novelty, although they did want the first month's rent in the kind of nuts they usually trust, thinking the ones I got from here might be a bit old and stale.
But they would like to know why some humans will insist on using sledgehammers to crack open their favourite foodstuff, never having seen the necessity of using such a tool for the purpose.
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David_Cunard #137: "If you should go into politics or international relations, consider how past actions came back to haunt one."
No duh!!! My God! Just how stupid do you think I am? I ment that sentence in the sense in which those "certain people" I was refering to are primarily my family and close friends. Obviously I'm never going to asociate myself with anyone contravercial or do anything that might be considered contravercial!! I know I won't be able to count on your vote, though!!! O, and thank you so much for that very informative lesson on specific politicions past actions, and how those actions are affecting said politicions today...because as you well know, I don't follow the news at all!!!
In the future, I won't be "thankful" for a stranger's teachings on correct spelling and grammar, I'll look back on this and still feel very much offended upon remembering how a stranger's military-esque style inspecting of every single word I wrote coupled with their endless insults under the guise of what they perceive to be nothing more than friendly advice made me feel!!
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Rome-Stu and British-ish: Despite the changing nature of the English language, obviously in professional settings excalent spelling and grammar is essential, but my belief, and apparently I am alone in this, is that it as not all that inappropriate, to in informal situations and settings, be a little lax in one's spelling and grammatical correctness.
The history of the language shouldn't matter.
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The Notting Hill Hammer #146: "Sorry NRD, you should have written "Hear, Hear". Please try harder."
Either that or kill myself. You know that post was directed at you, right?
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NRD at 151
The history of language should matter .... but not above the ideas that the language conveys.
History is important in all aspects of life - cultural, political, military and even linguistic. A knowledge of history enriches us all.
And of course, there is that well-used quote that "those who forget the mistakes of history and destined to repeat them" (so soething like that.
ps - I was actually defending you if you read my posts carefully.
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Rome-Stu #153: Agreed on your history comments...a knoledge of history is of course, crucial to one's understanding of the world around them!!! But I was trying to say what you said in your first sentence.
You're much more concise than I!
I saw that you defended me against The Notting Hill Hammer, and for that I thank you!! I didn't read all your other posts because they were a bit long, but if you did in them as well I thank you for that too.
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Language is a tool to be used, it is not an end in itself.
I agree with you norash:
"is that it as not all that inappropriate, to in informal situations and settings, be a little lax in one's spelling and grammatical correctness."
But the history of the language is fascinating and Rome-Stu and British-ish are brilliant and extremely good writers imo.
Another point is that language while helping us to formulate our ideas and our perceptions also can be limiting. Sometimes people can not see the reality that the words are used to describe. They are bound by the language they know.
For example one professor I had, said there is only one universe because uni means one. So there can be no parallel universes !
And there are psychological implications to a language.
"No me gusta albondigas" means "Meat balls don't like me." But in English we say "I do not like meatballs." So the causation for the dislike in one case is the object, while in the other the causation for the dislike is the speaker's own dislike for the object.
At one time college students were taught that language only occurred among humans..but now we know that some animals are able to understand language and can sign language.
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#140. british-ish: "David_Cunard wrote: " be thankful some stranger urged you to better your English."
Shouldn't that be "improve"?"
It could have been, but "better" is a perfectly good verb - as in "to better oneself" - check your dictionary!
"English, since it has become a near-universal language over the last sixty years"
Only since 1948? Surely not. Before then, the nations of the Empire all spoke English as well as the United States, the latter largely responsible for spreading the language via motion pictures. Thanks to international commerce and the pre-eminence of America in trade and entertainment, English has become the lingua franca of the modern world. I would have thought that dated back to rather earlier than the post-war years. As ever, I could be wrong.
#150. NoRashDecisions: "I won't be "thankful" for a stranger's teachings on correct spelling and grammar, I'll look back on this and still feel very much offended upon remembering how a stranger's military-esque style inspecting of every single word I wrote coupled with their endless insults under the guise of what they perceive to be nothing more than friendly advice made me feel!!"
Young man, you're far too defensive for your own good. I certainly have not inspected your every word (those mis-spelt stand out like a sore thumb) nor showered "endless insults" upon you. Exaggeration doesn't help; it's a pity you can't accept criticism. Months ago, British-ish was of a similar mind, but to his credit, he brushed himself down and bounced right back. You should emulate him.
One last thing - and it really is free - download Safari and you'll find it superior to whatever browser you're using now. Either that or invest in a MacBook or an iMac - and with the newest Macs, if you really must stick with a Wintel OS, you can run Windows on it as well.
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David, shame safari doesn't check the validity of links. You are sending us to a page that doesn't exist! Live by the sword and all that.
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122 time waits.
I ahve a rael issue with grammur trolls.
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#157. seanspa "You are sending us to a page that doesn't exist!"
Not Apple's fault but mine - I had inadvertently added an extra letter to the link. This should get you to Safari. If all else fails, Google is there to help you.
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David_Cunard #156: I refer you to your post at #125 as evidence of your insults. Yes they aren't about my spelling and grammar!! But they still are just as offensive, and are directed at me.
Other than that I officially give up. Never marry.
O, and I'm a woman.
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NoRashDecisions
The history lesson wasn't meant for you.
155. bethpa wrote:
Rome-Stu and British-ish are brilliant and extremely good writers imo.
How kind. But I have the aid and support of the squirrels.
156. David_Cunard wrote
it's a pity you can't accept criticism. Months ago, British-ish was of a similar mind, but to his credit, he brushed himself down and bounced right back. You should emulate him.
Hmmm. See above.
I am still of a mind neither to accept a point of view being derided or being treated as a child simply because mine opposes what someone thinks is or should be an orthodoxy. And now and then I refuse to continue a line of argument that becomes pointlessly repetitious. As this is becoming. That is what I would call the nature of what some people call 'criticism'.
And I have never accepted the dogma that to simply to be older than myself is wiser or to be better informed, or to be right.
Nor do I ask anyone to put me forward as a role model except as one who will combat opinions and beliefs he regards as wrong, thank you very much. While doing his best to avoid argumentum as hominemwhich—NRD please be warned—has been provoked by some writers here to have authors they disapprove of banned.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Norashdecisions,
While others were tugging at their forelock I felt I had to make an apology too, but also an admission of stupidity and my own personal embarrassment.
No, I have never been upset with your spelling or grammatical errors finding your postings spontaneous, free from bigotry and a joy to read where a simple honest heart , beat behind a computer and keyboard. Have always enjoyed our conversations.
In a site overwhelmed with super intelligent macho posters and schoolmasters waving the cane, [wteo Aquagirl , Ms Marbles, Samantha Tyler , etc] I rushed to your defence many moons ago when previous comments on your sobriety and spelling hit the fan.
And the last few days revelations that you are an "American youth". Did I feel a first class idiot.
Taking the bull by the horns, I was composing a posting and then you fortunately write #160!!!!!!!
What a pity that checking a posters name and input does not give the total picture of what they are or have already posted on this site. Pointless checking any name to see what has been posted,since nobody's is complete but please check these.
759. At 6:16pm on 01 Dec 2008. First paragraph.
840. At 8:01pm on 03 Dec 2008 Explanations of my own failings in the Ingle-ish.
Adoring you then and still adoring you now.
wma
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#161. british-ish: "I am still of a mind neither to accept a point of view being derided or being treated as a child simply because mine opposes what someone thinks is or should be an orthodoxy."
Behave like a child, get treated like a child.
"Nor do I ask anyone to put me forward as a role model except as one who will combat opinions and beliefs he regards as wrong, thank you very much."
You may have forgotten, but in a moment of petulance you told us that you would no longer be contributing to this blog. The fact that you changed your mind was to your credit. But what's with the "thank you very much"? It seems such a juvenile phrase, but perhaps it has found it's way back into British, adult, use. Incidentally, calling the language used in England "British English" - as opposed to "American English" - is a convenience - "English English" looks and sounds so odd - and "British English" does have the benefit of including the rest of the UK.
I don't think anyone here can actually get posters banned - if there are a sufficient number of infractions of the rules, then the Moderators may remove someone, but not because of a request by another writer. In any case, they come right back with another pseudonym.
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David_Cunard
I'm awaiting to see how you respond to "O, and I'm a woman." I did not expect that.
I agree with wma that you do come across as somewhat (well I'm tired of scrolling looking for the quote!) schoolmaster mode?, but I do applaud you for trying to uphold standards. I admit I judge people by their ability to spell. (Well, not happylaze, he probably does it on purpose.)
158. happylaze
"I ahve a rael issue with grammur trolls."
I would hate to think we have to pass a grammar test to blog. Many, myself included, would fail. But... I do believe you know how to spell. Are you not a product of that famous British school system?
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#160. NoRashDecisions "I refer you to your post at #125 as evidence of your insults. Yes they aren't about my spelling and grammar!! But they still are just as offensive, and are directed at me."
There is a difference between a correction and an insult. The pity is that you appear not to understand that they are not the same. Much as I might like to, I take great care never to insult anyone in writing - I've been around long enough to know all the words but reserve them for spoken English. Had I "insulted" you it would have been in far stronger language - but then probably referred to the Mods.
Your reference to your sex and my response (which followed the above) appears to have been removed (see #162); a pity since I can't see that one's gender has anything to do with opinion. But as Ed I. has said, the Mods are as gods.
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#165. timewaitsfornoman: "I'm awaiting to see how you respond to "O, and I'm a woman." I did not expect that."
I responded but it was removed - the mods appear to be extremely sensitive this evening, as it is in London (or wherever they work.)
"I do applaud you for trying to uphold standards. I admit I judge people by their ability to spell."
Thanks - good to know that I'm not the only one! If spelling were so difficult I could understand the problems, but today it is not. I simply cannot understand why otherwise seemingly bright and well-educated writers do not take advantage of the electronic tools available to them. It's not as if it costs a fortune to download the appropriate application. Perhaps it's a type of rebellion against society, like growing long hair once was, or the proliferation of tattoos which are at present - and which will look ghastly in years to come. The fad for piercings will pass (except possibly for Sam . . .) and eventually correct spelling and grammar will replace what seemed so cool back in 2009. We live in hope.
Scrolling down to look for a word? What kind of browser do you use? Both Safari and Firefox have "find' or "seek" capability and will find a word instantly - for example, there are two posts before this containing "schoolmaster": 163 and 165. Update to Safari - it's available for PCs as well as Macs.
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If you want to discuss spelling, how about doing soon a different blog?
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I'm trying the google browser right now and it works pretty well. Uncluttered, built in spell check and useful find function.
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Note to self - get keyboard spacebar fixed. Soon really means so on.
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timewaitsfornorman # 165
Thank you for your few kind words suggesting agreement in some part of my posting.
This could be a first for me, though I once got to halfway with MAII.[I think]
David explains he is a product of "plain English"- home cooking on the other thread.
Throwing "too many spices in the pot" can be disturbing for us ex-pat Brits, and our taste buds take time to acclimatise.
Perhaps it's our hate of the garlic and French influences that complicate things.
We do not have a stiff upper lip for nothing.
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#168. seanspa: "If you want to discuss spelling, how about doing soon a different blog?"
Nice sense of humour - and that spelling is a credit to modern surgery. Only in Hollywood!
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David #167
Re the spellcheckers.
Perhaps I am using the wrong English language setting, but I refuse to change certain words that I know are correct, when the red underlined warning crops up.
Software is not everything especially if you have a thick hard head, like mine.
Busy learning the new Portuguese language and January 3rd they move over to accepting the spelling from Brasilian Portuguese!!!
Bend with it I say, don't break.
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#171 #167 waterman and David_Cunard
I am the product of a "British upbringing." My mother was born in the UK and my father brought me up to be a gentleman. Even though I too am a woman.
Being a dawdling procrastinator my childhood was spent listening to my mother say, "Time waits for no man." Not that I had any idea what she was talking about! Or as gunsandreligion likes to say, aboot.
I wanted my blog name to be "grain of sand" as in "It's not the mountains ahead", etc., but someone had already taken it. Where is that person?
#168 #170 seanspa - you have a wonderful sense of humour. (And I'm not changing the spelling!)
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#173. watermanaquarius: "Perhaps I am using the wrong English language setting, but I refuse to change certain words that I know are correct, when the red underlined warning crops up."
You should be able to "learn this" when you click in the "offending word" - I have had difficulty with English words which include a diphthong and which in American use are usually replaced by 'e'. The British/English spelling will be retained - or should be.
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160. NoRashDecisions wrote:
"Other than that I officially give up."
And as far as this is concerned, so do I. Let's leave them to their own little games, shall we?
"Behave like a child, be treated like a child", eh? Well, actually, that sounds rather insulting to me, Mr Cunard. So, in future, however childish you may think it is, I shall be ignoring you.
I'm not letting some people play with my toys any more.
Ciao
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David_Cunard #166: "There is a difference between a correction and an insult. The pity is that you appear not to understand that they are not the same. Much as I might like
to, I take great care never to insult anyone in writing."
My God! Just when I resign myself to watching you sparr with everyone else, you go and pull me back in again!!
On the contrary, I understand the difference perfectly!! Let me get this streight. So your saying that you don't find your comments on my grades that I received in my English classes at #125 the slightest bit offensive? I know its hard, but try to put yourself in someone else's shews. As an outsider, reading our exchanges, you honestly wouldn't find your comments a smidge harsh? You wouldn't think to yourself upon reading them, '"Wow, if 'David_Cunard were to think before he wrote, how much more success he would have in conveying his message to this God forsaken lost uneducated yank!!" Well then perhaps in your eyes I can't tell the difference between an insult and a correction. But in mine I feel that it is equally a pitty that the only emotions you seem to know how to convey are disrespectfulness and rudeness.
Shame!!
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No Rash Decisions
My husband is a nit picker and very fussy about such small details as spacing between words....but I forgive his transgressions as he forgives mine ( where have I heard that before?) well or we try to...sometimes you just have to let things go
British-ish...
Who are these squirrels? Where will I find them?
Happylaze's posts are often an example of how creative writing can be and "mistakes" can carry humor and meaning.
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PS David, you can insult someone without cursing!! I should think you, of all people would know that!! So your excuse doesn't work! In fact, a good test of one's grasp of the English language and their knoledge of synonims for words etc is their ability to say the same thing in many different ways.
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Gentle and Courtly, fighting terrorists....say good bye to the security Bush provided.
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watermanaquarious #163: Why you wrote that like you ment it!!!
In all seriousness, I thank you very much for your kind remarks!! I've never been too good at receiving compliments -- I think you were too generous with yours!!
And thank you as well for your defence!!
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I'm glad that some appreciate my attempts to inject humour into this. Despite my best efforts to lighten the mood, though, it seems that standards in spelling are more important than standards of behaviour. David, please give it a rest. It's far more important that people feel free to express their views than it is that they use a spell-checker.
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wrote 159 # Cunard_David
"Safari to you get should This"
.away straight it Downloaded
.much very Thanks .fantastic Absolutely
.problems No .immediately it Understood
.treat a going is now writing Dutch My
?spellchucker the find I do Where.
.ago years 20 system this used have Should
.amw
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I'm not sure that a gentle manner, a sweet disposition and a warm heart are necessarily the best qualifications for the director of the CIA.
I think that we are now so terrified of showing strength and resolve that we are now indulging in sentiment and rather childish emotion. This is a response to the aggression of the Bush administration, but it is not a good idea to move all the way in the opposite direction.
Evil really does exist in the world. The idea of a very weak and passive USA is extremely popular in Europe, and especially in Britain, but those who support a CIA of soft, nice, sweet, warm, kindly people who are politically correct in every way may not work out as well as they might think.
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178.bethpa wrote:
"British-ish...
Who are these squirrels? Where will I find them?"
Ah yes, the squirrels. I am afraid I can't provide a complete history, since I didn't think to keep a full record.
However, the Squirrel Party came on the scene around the end of October or early November, when the European species sciurus vulgaris (not to be confused with its American cousin sciurus carolinensis) decided it could remain silent no longer about the specieshomo sapiens, which it was beginning to view, in the period of the presidential election, as a damn sight less sapiens than it was cracked up to be and probably more populated with nuts than their preferred habitat.
(One pro-right wing contributor had claimed that Tony Blair had planned to 'remove the Britishers' "nuts" ' and the first Squirrel post here was a statement of shock at the first ever revelation of a neo-socialist Blairite plan to starve the realauthentic socialist squirrel population.
A squirrel collective therefore occasionally uttered communiques and commentary. With the proliferation of comments of the right wing in that period, the demonising and general misuse of concepts like 'socialism', it soon changed its name to the "Red (as in socialist, not Republican) Squirrel Party" to make its social and sciurane stance on world events more clear.
(There was around this time a fake post, claiming that I, as their chosen, and humble spokesman to humankind—if 'kind' is not a contradiction in terms—had transferred my loyalties to the Baby Panda Party, on the spurious and venal grounds that they were more attractive and got more publicity. Very embarrassing, but that just shows how humans conduct the business of politics, doesn't it?)
The squirrels have commented occasionally since the election, though they have lately adopted temporary hibernation as a means of escaping the consequences of yet another of humankind(?)'s periodic attempts at self-destruction.
In fact, they must have been considering emigrating from the planet altogether (though I am not privy to their inner councils) since one of their last messages ended obscurely with something like "And thanks for all the acorns".
However, they have intimated recently that they may be considering a return to the hurly-burly of human life, as you can see from one or two remarks.
(I don't know how far back you can follow them on this blog, because it seems the Beeb doesn't keep that many entries, but if you click on my name, perhaps you may be able to catch up on one or two of their previous messages.)
I am in broad sympathy with their general aims and philosophy, of course, but any opinions expressed here by the Squirrels are of course theirs alone.
Hope that helps?
(Please be kind, mods, and don't can this; I'm only replying to a request for information.)
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#176. british-ish: "in future, however childish you may think it is, I shall be ignoring you. . . I'm not letting some people play with my toys any more."
As Ronald Reagan famously said. "There you go again!" Stomp your little foot and go play with the other kids. I thought we had weaned you of it, but you've reverted to type.
#177.NoRashDecisions: "In fact, a good test of one's grasp of the English language and their knoledge of synonims for words etc is their ability to say the same thing in many different ways."
Believe me, I can insult with the best of them - and with no four letter words either.
I wonder if perhaps you watched the CBS Evening News this evening - one of the reports was about illiteracy: 37 million Americans are functionally illiterate, having no more than a 5th grade ability to read the English language. I presume that if they can't read it they probably cannot write it either. When there are so many errors (two in the quote above) others are bound to query their education. Do you really want to be lumped into that statistic? It doesn't bother me one way or the other if you want to appear less than literate, but others in the future may. It's your call, whether to improve yourself or not.
#182. seanspa: "It's far more important that people feel free to express their views than it is that they use a spell-checker."
Why can't they do both? It's not as if it were technically difficult. There are two regular posters whose writings have been frequently disparaged because of poor spelling, grammar and syntax and whose arguments would carry far more weight if they were in better English. It's no good having ideas when they can't be set down correctly - if I can take advantage of electronic aids to spelling, why can't a 22 year old woman? Or anyone else for that matter. It's just so simple to get it right!
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David_Cunard #186: And your point is? No I don't want to be "lumped" into that group of 37 million illiterate Americans, but I guess I have no choice do I? You, for one, will always think the worst of me despite my best efforts to explain my positions on issues and why I hold such views. So there you have it. I'm a 22-year old illiterate woman who can't use a spell checker on a blog!! Lock me up and throw away the key!! I'm a disgrace to all mankind!! Forget any other characteristics I may have to offer, no, I'll always be known hence forth as the stupid one.
And FYI, you still haven't answered my question about your (what I would deam to be insult) regarding my grades. Please do so.
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Message from the squirrels:
So hommo spaiens can mannege to feight over even spellng and grammer. As wee thote; theyl never get civillised. If u carnt axcept anyboddy elses poynt of vu, y rezort to dgrayding them?
(In consequence of the recent bombardment, the squirrels make no apology for having written this message on a crisp packet with a blunt pencil by the light of one match, there being no electricity for their laptop and spellchecker.)
"Is not," they asked, turning philosophical,"a good thought, badly expressed, better than an evil thought, however elegantly written?" I said I thought someone else had already written something to that effect, and some people wouldn't take any notice, so they just curled their tails over their ears and sighed. And so would I.
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#187. NoRashDecisions: "No I don't want to be "lumped" into that group of 37 million illiterate Americans, but I guess I have no choice do I?"
Of course you do; a fifty-year old African-American learnt to read for the first time ever, so it's never too late to improve. But you don't seem motivated to get it right, the tools are readily available so why not use them? It's the failure to take advantage of what is offered you which is, to use your own word, "stupid" - although not one which I would have chosen. WatermanA managed to download Safari so what's your problem? If it was a question of finances I'd understand, but since it is not - such downloads are free - I cannot understand why you would continue to write as you do.
With regard to your question - if your writing as it has appeared here is a sample of what "high Bs" are, then there's something wrong with the grading system. The fact that you are in the top 85/89% certainly does not give me confidence in the ability of your tutors. Someone of 22 should have been able to leave school and spell correctly; that you cannot really does not say much for American education. Unfortunately you are the victim because apparently no-one pushed you to do better, which obviously you could do if you made even the slightest effort.
#188. british-ish - Are those red or grey squirrels?
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TimothyR @184
"Evil really does exist in the world. The idea of a very weak and passive USA is extremely popular in Europe, and especially in Britain, but those who support a CIA of soft, nice, sweet, warm, kindly people who are politically correct in every way may not work out as well as they might think."
It really doesn't help to bring in words like EVIL into serious debate. Take Gaza - it is evil for Hamas it rocket Israel and randomly kill civilians. It is also evil for Israel to use white phosphorous on Gaza and randomly kill civilians. Real debate does need words like evil. It is subjective.
Again, I am NOT an apologist for terrorists - just a realist who sees that simply carrying on as we are is only fuelling their recruitment drive.
Neither am I (or anyone else really) suggesting the USA be "weak and passive" (your words). As stated before, we should follow our own laws in order to defend ourselves.
We should also engage in dialogue wherever and whenever possible. I grew up in London in the 70s/80s with occasional IRA bombs and frequentIRA bomb scares .... back then no one would have dreamt of talking to Sein Fein.
Then finally the British Government stopped the illegal policy of internment and opened dialogue (ably aided by the Americans - there, I credit you something). If the USA could understand that lesson then, why has it lost its memory?
(or was Ireland just a guilt trip as NorAid had been funding the IRA for decades?)
Oh, and do you really think Panetta is "soft, nice, sweet, warm and kindly" (your words)
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british-ish
Thank you for the very amusing reply. : )
According to the NY Times people in Britain are now eating squirrels..sigh
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/07/dining/07squirrel.html?
"Saving a Squirrel by Eating One"
"With literally millions of squirrels rampaging throughout England, Scotland and Wales at any given time, squirrels need to be controlled by culls."
Poor little squirrels... I could never eat one of them...
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Panetta is principled and tough...and smart
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191.
I can assure you, though I would possibly try (grey) squirrel pie if it were to help my (red) friends regain their homelands, I can assure you I have never seen squirrel steaks, pies or pates in the supermarkets.
I have more than a suspicion that this story was put about by someone who thought he had found a way to make a pound or two and get rid of a few otherwise useless dead squirrels. Or just found a way to get a bit of publicity for a market.
You don't even see rabbits much (and I like rabbit.) Of course, given the economic crisis, this may change, but I still don't really expect squirrels to be hunted in Hyde Park by office workers on their way home . . .
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#191.bethpa: "According to the NY Times people in Britain are now eating squirrels..sigh"
Just as bad, I read that in China there are now dog and cat farms where the creatures are raised just for their meat. I have difficulty with beef (those big soulful eyes . . .) let alone the smaller and cuter animals. What next - hamster and gerbil on the plate?
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137 DC on Wright. Obama has a problem living down the hype brought out by the CLINTON team about the Rev who said nothing wrong , just said it while being a black guy in front of other black folk and that made a bunch of american white folk get a little unsettled.
Shame Obama, had to win and had to disconnect because you and yours at THAT time were berating him for being a terrorist ,as opposed to the sweet smelling Hillary.
Or can I go back to purposefully calling her Hillery
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167 DC as you may know I have taken great effort to spell incorrectly at all times.
The Jacksforge posts were rarely without a spelling mistake and when an argument was not going someone's way, out would come the Grammar trolls.
Again and again this blog is attacked by a party of marauding trolls from over some border.
Claiming the content is wrong or spurious or a waste of time and not worth listening to because the writer forgot a letter .
It is a sad thing that this happens and I for one am glad that at every occasion the Grammar trolls get sent packing.
On to the liitle animal eaters I have simialr problems but until I eat a bug i know I cannot get all Upset by them that does.
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happylaze
One good thing about the Wright controversy. It helped stop the rumor that Obama was a Muslim.
Basically they were looking for anything to defeat Obama. He's a Muslim, he's an extremist Christian, he's a socialist, he's a communist, he's anti American etc...
Its a good thing for any person to know as many different people as possible...and to treat them with dignity is admirable.
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It's leg of lamb tonight. I'm just glad that Mr Park came up with Shaun rather than Sean.
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#196. happylaze: "DC as you may know I have taken great effort to spell incorrectly at all times."
Since it is the printed word (visual image?) we see, it is virtually impossible to tell if such things are deliberate or not. When British-ish suddenly writes in "scribble" we assume he's being humourous, but when it's constant, there's no way of knowing. With NRD I can't tell whether she's being deliberately obtuse or whether it comes naturally - same with jacksforge posts. I assume MagicK just doesn't bother to make the effort.
By the way, I never suggested that Obama or Rev Wright were terrorists - Obama did have a problem with his pastor because of the inflammatory nature of what he said: "God damn America" wasn't the best phrase to come out of his mouth. If you look back, I believe you'll find it was the right-wing zealots who really pushed the issue - O'Reilly beat it into the ground.
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Romestu:
"It really doesn't help to bring in words like EVIL into serious debate. "
Too absurd.
One must use only relativist language to describe world events? That is the very essence of political correctness, isn't it?
No thank you. I do not intend to adapt to this short of shallow, fatuous corruption of language. Debate and discussion become impossible.
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What is all the nonsense about squirrels, and why are these posts allowed on a discussion forum?
I know - it is precious and cute and adorable. But it is also irrelevant and more than a little twee.
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I just noticed that Sam Donaldson is described as "always sensible".
Justin Webb is such a gracious, thoughtful man that it is hardly fair to quibble. But he might want to at least reconsider this observation about Donaldson.
Donaldson is very well known for being extremely eccentric and self-absorbed. Whether he is also sensible seems open to question....
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NoRashDecisions,
I am picking up the fag end of the discussion here (the local smithy taught me this expression!), but apropos your spelling difficulties, I would have to say I agree substantially with Mr. Cunard.
I don't mean to suggest by this that you should feel your posts are not welcome. To the contrary, they are appreciated and interesting. But why not work out the worst of the spelling difficulties, particularly because it is just so darn easy?
Whether we like it or not, our writing style (including spelling) can often speak as loudly as the content we wish to convey. It is analogous to our physical appearance in face to face conversation; in a perfect world, perhaps, it would not matter how we appear, and we would be judged solely on what we say. The reality is, however, often very different. Look serious, and you are halfway (maybe better!) to being taken seriously.
I know this is only a blog, but it is as good a place as any to put on your game face, and improve your writing. Of course, if you are in a hurry, and have something you just have to say, then by all means let it rip as is!
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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201. TimothyR444 wrote:
What is all the nonsense about squirrels, and why are these posts allowed on a discussion forum?
The squirrels' response:
We wholeheartedly agree. Animal Farm is a silly tale about "precious and cute and adorable" animals and also "irrelevant and more than a little twee." And, of course Swift's Modest Proposaladvocates, perfectly justifiably, cannibalism as a solution to overpopulation.
Hint.
We can recognise a Yahoo when we see one, and we aren't talking about the one with the exclamation mark either.
We are also very good at spotting nuts."
(Message ends.)
Mind you, if squirrelposts suddenly start getting referred to the mods, we shall know who to blame, won't we?
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norashdecisions:
"No I don't want to be "lumped" into that group of 37 million illiterate Americans, but I guess I have no choice do I? You, for one, will always think the worst of me despite my best efforts to explain my positions on issues and why I hold such views."
Good gosh - I am so sorry you have had to put up with these contemptious and unasked-for lectures on your ability to write.
You posts are most certainly not illiterate. Ignore them and keep writing.
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british-ish:
Mind you, if squirrelposts suddenly start getting referred to the mods, we shall know who to blame, won't we?
Certainly not.
When I disagree I do it in a forthright manner. I have no intention of reporting squirrel posts. Have at it, by all means.
It is interesting to note that you place your posts on this blog in the company of Swift and Orwell. A bit much, don't you think?
As for the comments about yahoos and nuts: once again, that's very amusing indeed, but I prefer my insults served up straight, without the combination of acid and sugar syrup...
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#203. chronophobe - Thanks for that!
#205. TimothyR444 "I am so sorry you have had to put up with these contemptious and unasked-for lectures on your ability to write."
'contemptuous', please, or we shall be commenting on your own literacy.
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Justin Webb:
UPDATE
1)CIA PICK: It took some work on the part of the Obama Administration, but, the CIA...Finally has a head of the organisation....
2)I see the Obama team are planning to get a TV doctor - albeit a well qualified one - to lead the nation's medical care. Which he, never accepted the nomination, and withdrew his name from consideration
~Dennis Junior~
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