No Bible for second oath
Sorry to go on about religiosity - and I read with interest those who disagreed with me, and each other, on this - but surely the fact that President Obama swore his second oath without using a Bible tells us something hugely important? Something that will cheer those (including plenty of religious folk) who think the church-state balance has become skewed in recent years.
Obama and Roberts knew perfectly well that you don't need a Bible to become president - there have been oaths taken without one in the past - but in the Bush White House you can bet they would have found one for the second swearing in. Even if they had had to send out to CVS (Boots!).
In the Obama White House it was no big deal. Religious beliefs for him are essentially private.
If the second oath was legally the one that counts then one can say he was sworn into office without using a holy book.
Hello, I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~37~RS~)
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"If the second oath was legally the one that counts then one can say he was sworn into office without using a holy book."
Hallelujah! ;-)
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Does it matter? No.
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But did he conclude with "So help me God"?
uite distinct from the Hubris of "Humanism"Interestingly, there wasn't a Christian President for quite a few dozen years. The early ones were all Deists, notably the first:
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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Justin,
Perhaps he had his hand on a copy of the Constitution?As an afterthought, does it matter if a left-handed person swears while holding up his/her right hand?
;-)
ed
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To not use a bible for the second swearing in is, essentially, a personal statement for President Obama. Most Christians in this country (especially Republicans) would refuse to do it without the bible, while Obama has clearly drawn a line in the sand, which might also show how he will deal with the separation of church and state... I'm glad. After all, what does a bible have to do with an oath to take public office?
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That's great to hear.
I read on the other thread on this subject some interesting views.
Tolerance of non-Christian religions or Atheism clearly varies based on where you live.
I live in Georgia, and I can assure you, as someone who isn't Christian, I really have to be careful round here in terms of making my views known.
No wonder Sarah Palin and W were such big hits here.
This is also O'Reilly country.....in contrast to Justin's take on religion in the inauguration, "Bill O" was rejoicing about god being mentioned 5 times in the speech.
Thanks for reporting about the second oath, it definitely gives me hope for more tolerance on this subject.
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More principled action from Obama
Right On!
ed
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The inaugural oath was, of course, taken using the 'Lincoln bible' and that was done for symbolism, to add to a sense of poignancy, and to be witnessed by millions of Americans and people the world over.
Given that the second oath was not going to be witnessed by the public nor by the press, symbolism would have served no purpose.
Technically, the use of a book, alleged to be holy or otherwise, during the taking of an oath is pure symbolism (regardless of whose book it was). Any item so sworn upon is, in actuality, totally irrelevant to the promise made.
Obama couldn't very well go through the rigmarole of retracing Lincolns' steps and not take the oath with Lincolns' bible. It would be interesting to know whether, had he not chosen that path, he would have chosen to take the oath with or without a bible. It certainly would have been a nice nod to the need to separate religion and politics if the latter were to be true.
...
No.3 - Yes he did. I wonder, is it a requirement to utter that phrase IF you've sworn upon a bible? As I understand it, it isn't a requirement of the oath per se.
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As the majority of your commentators wanted to let this matter drop, (I'm unsure which "trait" is responsible for that position) I agreed to go along with the decision. Apparently you wish otherwise.
When I was asked to swear an oath, three books were pointed out to me and I was told I could place my hand on any or none. The Bible, the Koran, the Torah. As I am Christian and knew what I was about to swear was the truth, I placed my hand on the Bible. But I was representing only myself not 300 million people.
The Bible should not be a part of the swearing in ceremony. The US is too diverse. As well, either the Christian prayers should be deleted or prayers of other religions included.
Hopefully the second swearing in sans Bible will be seen as a good sign by the rest of the world that Mr. Obama is planning on being more inclusive.
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Could this be the triumph of reason over superstition in Washington? Too early to say but it is encouraging.
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While you're obviously right that there is no need to swear on the bible surely the fact that he didn't leaves him open to the usual 'secret muslim' rumours/scaremongering? Since the whole point of the second oath was to avoid any dispute over his legitimacy, this omission surprises me...
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When I heard this on the radio, I found myself wondering....
If the first oath didn't count because he got the words wrong, how do we know if the second oath doesn't count because he didn't use a bible?
Time for a third attempt yet?
Religiosity: Obama doesn't need to recognise other peoples' religion - messiah Obama IS the new religion.
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No.3 - should have realised you were referring to the second oath. Whoops!
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Past US Presidents Calvin Coolidge and Chester Arthur also repeated their oaths in private because of similar issues. As on those occasions it was repeated yesterday simply to ensure the constitutional requirements had been met.
Theodore (Teddy) Roosevelt also did not use a Bible when taking the oath in 1901. Use of a Bible is not a requirement for the Oath to be considered legal; nothing in the US constitution requires that the oath of office be taken on the Bible. (The Lincoln Bible Obama used the day before had already been sent back to the museum it is kept in.) Neither do the words `so help me God` appear in the official text for the oath.
John Quincy Adams swore on a book of law, he was essentially an atheist. e.g. `This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religions in it.`
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Justin,
I beg to differ with you and others.
I feel omitting a simple classical oath ceremony with the bible could give rise to the loonies suggesting a miriad of reasons for this lapse, and it could only give them ammunition for time-wasting legal procedure to waste money.
Further I agree completely with your other church, state, and validity observations.
But old fashioned ceremonies sometimes give the underpinning necessary to keep one's feet on the ground and that of the less well informed population who feel that change could be coming too quickly.
I am glad Obama is on a roll and moving forward at a swift pace, but cutting corners on the run could result in him tripping up.
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I am a Cathloic, and even I see it as a trival matter. In fact I have to take sworn oaths regularly in my job and mostly we do so without a bible (or other religious text). Sometimes someone asks for a book, one person swore their oath on a copy of 'The Adventures of Tom Sawyer'.
It is the oath itself that is more important. No book is really necessary.
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Ed (#3), many sources report that President Washington was an active member of the Episcopal Church. The linked document is one source which reports him as Episcopalian. It lists only Thomas Jefferson as Deist.
http://www.heptune.com/preslist.html
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DNAtheist (#8), it is not a requirement, under any circomstances, to say "So help me, God." George Washington started the tradition by appending the statement to his oath without being prompted to do so. It seems to me that's the right way to do it. The person administering the oath should be concerned only with obtaining the legally required oath, after which the oath taker may say whatever he or she chooses.
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Two notes of clarification:
#3: Although most of the Founding Fathers were deists (and one Catholic--Carroll), they were also members of a church. President Washington added the words "So help me God." Though not an essential part of the Oath of Office, "So help me God" is optional.
This leads to #12's comment. It is up to the person taking the oath whether they say the words or not (usually it is coordinated ahead of time). For oaths of Enlistment/Commissioning, when it is a group, the Officer giving the oath will say "swear or affirm" and "so help me God." But the one receiving can say either "swear" or "affirm" and leave out "So help me God." It was already announced the first oath counted legally. The Chief Justice agreed, but in order to keep the letter of the law, they decided to have a re-do even though it was not necessary. Not the first time this has happened!
As oath's of offices that include the words "So help me God" was already ruled that it does not violate Church/State separation since it is up to the individual who is receiving the oath, the bible issue is mute.
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ed 4
of course his hand was important.
you know I just can't trust him. Fluffing his lines, getting to swear without a bible"you swear at my book I smite the" is a smart thing for any religious man.
them lefties
11 true it does open him to them that would say that , but then again he done won already so he can does as he likes.
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12 we already know the Bible is only there to keep the masses down.
Nah , but we do know there is no requirement. Legally speaking. And that if someone were to try to force the issue the case would be before the Big court and then there would be laws made that would end up with the Bible being declared unconstitutional in the Oath ceremony.
And then them who wish to swear at God would not be allowed to.
I wish he had tipped a nod to Prince Charles and used the "defender of all faiths" line.
for giggles and stuff.
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Personally, I think he should have hired the use of the Stone of Scone, or the London Stone, for the second Oath, just to add some excitement and tension to the whole thing.
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Or is it that Obama is not actually religious - its just something you have to be seen to be doing to be a pol in the USA. Bill Clinton going to church?? do me a favor.
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If I was religious and Obama (or anyone) says he 'swears to god' I wouldn't care what he was holding - it'll be good enough for me.
He could be holding Origin of Species as far as I would care.
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I think too much is being made of the first and mangled oath somehow hot being legal.
In any case the Chief Justice also mangled it !
All the words were there but not necessarily in the right order (UK readers will probbaly be famiiar with the Morcambe & Wise sketch with Andre Previn - all the right notes not necessarily played in the right oder).
His intent to take the oath was also there and I think that is what is important - and would probably be enough for any reasonable judge to rule taht Pbama is correctly President
On a similar vein did Diana actually marry Prince Charles? - afterall she mangled her vows too.
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SheffTim (#14), you wrote:
"John Quincy Adams swore on a book of law, he was essentially an atheist. e.g. `This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religions in it."
The document linked here presents an altogether different picture of JQA's religious views:
http://www25.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/johnquincyadams.html
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If this is all about religion why did the new President get himself and his wife photographed on the steps of St Johns in Washington? Canterbury must be praising the Lord.
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It's puzzling to me why folks believe that faith in God is incompatible with reason, or why faith in God should be denigrated. I am a licensed professional electronics engineer, and have been since 1978, and I was a Christian before that. Nothing in my entire experience causes me to doubt any part of my faith; indeed, most of my experience in engineering and science has reinforced my faith in Jesus Christ.
I have absolutely no desire to force anyone else to believe, but I'll sure invite everyone else to find out for themselves rather than base their decisions on what other folks have told them.
As far as separation of church and state is concerned, let's ask this question: Does this phrase mean that thoughts and actions based on non-religious or atheistic convictions are to be considered preferable either before the law or as a basis for civil action to thoughts and actions based on religious conviction? If so, then those with religious-based convictions must be a lower class than those without such convictions. How does that work in a land where all men are created equal???
The same is true the other way, of course, so doesn't that mean that our real job here is to maintain to the greatest extent possible an ideological vacuum with regard to our public policies, in which neither theism nor atheism has primacy?
I'm ready to do that job...how about you?
As far as whether or not Obama needed to use a Bible or something else to swear on, it's immaterial insofar as any civic obligation is concerned. We are holding him to his words of oath; it remains to be seen whether he or his VP will be faithful to it.
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Every federal employee is sworn to protect and defend the constitution. As a seasonal park ranger, I took the oath twice; when I worked for Social Security for 6 months, I took it again. Using a Bible is a tradition at inaugurations, but not a requirement. You can rest assured that ordinary federal employees don't take the oath of office over a Bible. Besides, even though Roberts botched it, it surely counted the first time. The solemnity of the oath, whether taken at a beautiful national park like Great Sand Dunes or Mesa Verde or in a cramped Social Security office, or screwed up on a national stage--that's what matters. It's a cool thing to say, and much more profound and important than saying what is to me a meaningless pledge to a flag (although I am fond of the flag as well).
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I'm always mystified by the insistence on Oaths of Office. In this case surely it really ought to be the vote of the people that makes him President, not the recitation of some magic formula? It's almost like a christian's belief in the apostolic succession of priesthood. That the oath must be recited precisely as worded in the constitution is just plain silly. Does the fact that Princess Diana got Prince Charles' many names all mixed up at their wedding mean that the marriage was invalid and Wiilliam and Harry are, er, well, er ... well, not Princes, but I digress. Another weirdly catholic thing that recent US Presidents have taken to doing is leaving their successor a letter. The Pope's have done that for centuries. Even now Pope Benedict's letter to his successor is sitting in a drawer in his desk. I wonder which US President cottoned on to that idea?
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Ideally we would wish for separation of state and church.
But america is just not there yet.
Just the act of swearing in and the wording of the oaths are basically religious .
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12. jon112uk wrote:
When I heard this on the radio, I found myself wondering....
If the first oath didn't count because he got the words wrong, how do we know if the second oath doesn't count because he didn't use a bible?
Time for a third attempt yet?
It just makes me want to swear. . .
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A pity that the second time around he again had to add the coda, "So help me God." It would have been an ideal opportunity to set an example for future presidents. The Chief Justice presented it as a question, which the President repeated as a statement. An audio recording of the "do-over" may be heard here.
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#25. magnificentpolarbear: "did Diana actually marry Prince Charles? - afterall she mangled her vows too."
Perhaps that was the reason both parties "broke" their promises since they were not actually married!
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What a relief to have a President who does not feel the need to prove his religion (though, of course, on the campaign trail he did have to prove it). He also made a nod in his speech to 'people without religion'. As an Atheist it is nice to be acknowleged for a change.
Surely the point of swearing on an object is that it is important to you, so it shouldn't matter if it is the Bible, Where the Wild Things Are, or a photo of your grandmother.
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I'm glad they gave Obama a "booster oath" to take a potential weapon away from fringe groups.
Re # 29 and the Pledge of Allegiance - an oath that the far right goes into fits over.
The original version never mentioned God. That bit was added during the Eisenhower administration during the McCarthy/Commie scare years.
People on both extreme sides of the political spectrum have been fiddling with it ever since.
I say it as I learned it as a child:
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
It seems perfectly fine and all inclusive in that form - and gives us a goal to work for. We still have to gain "liberty and justice for all", more on the economic that racial lines. Black or white counts for less in the judicial and healthcare divide that the socio-economic position. Poor people of all races get die sooner and spend more time in jail.
We have a dream.... Luckily Obama understands the goal.
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Ooops. I should have re-read before I sent that last message. Let me try again:
I'm glad they gave Obama a "booster oath" to take a potential weapon away from fringe groups.
Re # 29 and the Pledge of Allegiance - an oath that the far right goes into fits over.
The original version never mentioned God. That bit was added during the Eisenhower administration during the McCarthy/Commie scare years.
People on both extreme sides of the political spectrum have been fiddling with it ever since.
I say it as I learned it as a child:
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
It seems perfectly fine and all inclusive in that form - and gives us a goal to work for. We still have to gain "liberty and justice for all", more on the economic than racial lines. Black or white counts for less in the educational, healthcare, and judicial divide than the socio-economic position. Poor people of all races have a less than adequate education, spend more time in jail and die sooner.
We have a dream.... Luckily Obama understands the goal.
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Is it really the job of anyone in government to bend over backwards to accomodate every Tom Dick or Harry who wants to cause a fuss, just in case?
To run a government, there comes a point when those within government have to stand up to the media and the hysterical folk, to roll their sleeves up and get on with the real work of sorting out the mess facing the American economy, by refraining to pander to all. That isn't leadership. That is spending four years in inept paralysis.
Since State and church are distinct, there is no need to pander to the hysterical bunch, too lazy, or not bright enough to understand the real work of governments, or to those who fail to respect the words of their own consitituition.
The land of the free, will be truly free when not a single person notices the religion, colour, race, or even the gods worshipped by those running and winning an election. How many years will it be before the voters can welcome a Hindu, an aetheist, or a Sioux, as President.
It will be a truly free country when everyone within that and every other country has the depth, maturity, and respect for each other, understands that to lead requires real leadership and the skills to get the work done.
To debate if the President, or leader of any other country for that matter, should or should not swear his oath on the Bible only shows how far, America and all countries have still to travel.
To use a Bible 'just in case' would be to highlight not race descrimination, but belief discrimination.
Obama's speech indicated his desire to have an America that should not, and would not tolerate discimination. Didn't anyone hear?
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What bothers me most about the Pledge of Allegiance in its current form is the widespread practice of inserting an extra comma during its recital. If it's important enough to recite at all, it's important enough to get it right.
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But Justin, you have to 'drop the Bible', and the television cameras, so that a few years down the line someone can claim, when he is running for re-election, that they have found the Koran he used for the second swearing-in..
My tongue is in my cheek - but that doesn't mean somebody wouldn't try it again...
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But did he add the "So help me God" bit at the end? It's not part of the formal oath in the Constitution, but he said it on Tuesday.
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arclightt said: "...doesn't that mean that our real job here is to maintain to the greatest extent possible an ideological vacuum with regard to our public policies, in which neither theism nor atheism has primacy?
I'm ready to do that job...how about you?"
I agree with that statement, and I am glad that you, as a Christian, believe in the importance of keeping ideology out of political decision making. You must see however, that among people of an evangelical persuasion at least, you are in a minority. Take attitudes to gay marriage as an example. According to evangelicals in general, the bible says that homosexuality is a sin, and therefore public policy that sanctions this "sin" is wrong. Therefore public policy should be changed.
Where is the neutrality here? To many people this seems like a massive intrusion on a private behaviour which harms no one, merely because a certain group of people don't think it's right.
The implication of your post suggests that it is people who chose not to live by faith, who should become more tolerant. Examples such as this suggest something very different.
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#41. ukexpat: "But did he add the "So help me God" bit at the end? It's not part of the formal oath in the Constitution, but he said it on Tuesday."
Yes - and see the audio link at #33. It sounds as if the Chief Justice included it as if it were part of the requirement which, as you say, it is not. I don't think it was proper of Roberts to "prompt" the President - if he had to say it, it should been of his own volition, as it was in the first place.
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Who cares? No one should care about this.
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35. At 7:53pm on 22 Jan 2009, JoseGold:
"Surely the point of swearing on an object is that it is important to you, so it shouldn't matter if it is the Bible, Where the Wild Things Are, or a photo of your grandmother".
I agree, I don't care if it's a fortune from a fortune cookie that he swears in on. It's just symbolism. I just want him to help our country and bring our standing back in the world; while improving our quality of life. If there are folks out there who are worried about this, maybe if they were out of work they wouldn't worry about such petty things.
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32. At 7:28pm on 22 Jan 2009, british-ish:
"It just makes me want to swear. . ."
Give in, there is nothing like a good cuss word or 5 of them when you're irritated.
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Justin, give it a rest. I can't believe a reputable website like the BBC is engaging in minutiae like this with all the problems afflicting our countries.
As an agnostic a handshake or personal promise would have much more bearing than placing my hand on a holy book written millennia ago by a bunch of ignorant and often cruel individuals, and revised centuries later by an ambitious Pope and his Bishops in Nicaea.
In any case, President Obama became President at noon on 1/20/09, before the Oath was administered. However, it is good that the Administration, and Chief Justice Roberts decided to do it over, if nothing else because it makes further discussion on this subject pure partisan bile.
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"...it shouldn't matter if it is the Bible, Where the Wild Things Are, or a photo of your grandmother."
As a grandmother, I would like it very much if my grandaughter took her oath of office as President on my picture.
Sadly, it may take that long to get a female in the Oval Office - AT the desk instead of under it, that is.
(sigh)
P.S. Instead of "Where the Wild Things Are" (under the desk, of course), how about "Horton Hatches the Egg" or "Stellaluna"? "Gerald McBoingBoing"? "The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy"?
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Gary, Ed (#3),
And many report the opposite, and that he attended synagogue and Quaker services, among other denominations. There is a story that upon being upbraided by a minister for his habit of leaving before Communion, he never gain attended on a Communion Sunday, biut instead visited tenants and dealt with estate matters...Jefferson was definitely a Deist, but had tremendous regard for Jesus, but (like myself) felt no need to consider Him divine. Paine, of course was ostracised after the Age of Reason, as many considered him an Atheist, but he was also Deist, and Jefferson never cut him off....Old times, but good men (and, no doubt women)
Peace
ed
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I forgot to mention that Martha Washington was a pillar of the church, and rarely missd a Communion. I believe Uncle George "spread himself around as noted above, and felt that, as President, it was "inappropriate" to affiliate with any one sect.
All speculation, tempered by a little research
;-)
ed
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I find it hilarious when people mention something that they don't truly understand. To be a deist you have to believe in God. A deist simply believes that God takes no active roll on earth anymore. Deist's are Christians.
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Paul,
Not so!I find it hilarious when people mention something that they don't truly understand.Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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A very powerful symbol is missing, but
this is not unique among taking of
oaths. How could it be, since we are
such a diverse nation?
I agree with nessie1945 that the
emphasis on some belief in God was
a reaction to our conflict with Communism,
which will probably have a lasting influence
on our culture for generations. Most
Europeans probably cannot relate to
our complete intolerance of Communism,
although they tend to share our similar
intolerance of Nazi facism.
Will this equivalence in the American
mind between various forms of
totalitarianism and atheism persist,
or is it already starting to disappear?
And now I have a research question
for Justin, who is more versed on the
subject than I. The average American
believes that somehow the founders
believed implicitly in the existence of
God, and that some form of deism
is inextricably bound with our founding
documents. They don't really understand
the concept of separation of church
and state, although that is one of the
unique contributions of the US to
the world.
So, my question for you, Justin, is
did the founding fathers believe that
God gave them the foundation for
independence, as described quite
explicitly in the Declaration of Independence,
or does the Constitution declare
that God must make His way in the
"free marketplace of ideas?"
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apropos my last post: I defer to Ed,
and change the word "deism" to "theism."
And, were the founders deists or theists?
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A bible is a book written by men, hence they are the words of men not God.
Jesus Christ had no religion, but he had God;also Jesus did not write the bible.
Hence there is no difference swearing by the bible or the I-ching. The significance is an oath to God, that he will not violate the promise. Break it at your own peril.
Jesus, Socrates, Mohammed, Laotzu, Confucius were against the religions of their time; so they are all atheists.
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ref #38
Personaly it doesn't matter to me one way or another.
But there are Atheists who need to show their intellectual and moral superiority by forcing their beliefs on others.
Michael Newdow feels his comfort in being an Atheist should supersede everyone else's beliefs.
Do we need to spend time debating itaking In God we Trust off of the currency?
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Bible is symbolism for acknowledging supreme authority of Almighty God for prosperity of America. Majority of American believe “God bless America or so help me God” is not a hippocratic statement of a leader to please voters.
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Justin:
i have not one problem if there was no bible for the second oath of office...since, it was use in the first swearing in oath on tuesday...
~Dennis Junior~
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58. dennisjunior1 wrote:
Justin:
i have not one problem if there was no bible . . .
Or a MacBook? (I've discovered one reason why the Bush years were so awful.)
Obama's people use Apple Macs . . .like real people do.
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56. MagicKirin wrote:
ref #38
Do we need to spend time debating taking In God we Trust off of the currency?
Might as well keep it. You can't trust the banks after all . . .
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46. At 11:47pm on 22 Jan 2009, ladycm wrote:
32. At 7:28pm on 22 Jan 2009, british-ish:
"It just makes me want to swear. . ."
Give in, there is nothing like a good cuss word or 5 of them when you're irritated.
Can't. The *(!]*0[!@* moderators won't let me.
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Bible not required. But it certainly is a statement of how he will toss long held values aside, as well as allow others to toss unwanted babies aside.
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61
On second thoughts. . .
After a day when Obama has completely reversed the American political zeitgeist of pretty well a decade (two respected negotiators for the Middle East and Iraq/Afghanistan, a foreign policy based on diplomacy not military threat, the closure of secret CIA prisons, multilateral nuclear disarmament) . . .
[verb descriptive of heterosexual behaviour leading to the creation of new life with initial capitalisationpluslocation of souls eternally condemned in some theologies] isn't all that really worth talking about?
(I wonder if the mods will let me get away with that?)
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guns,
Sounds like a good topic for a graduate seminar.
One could get into the minutiae of the beliefs of the individual founders, (after, of course, making your case for who exactly 'the founders' were), and attempt to define how it was those beliefs manifested themselves in the founding documents (or perhaps you'd have to expand to include the ideas that underlie the founding documents). Etc.
Underlying all this no doubt fascinating detail would be, I think, one unifying motif: what is the Enlightenment? A tricky question.
But fools jump in where angels fear to tread, so here's my two cents. The Enlightenment was a revolution in how humans conceive their relations to each other and to nature. When Descartes said "I think, therefore I am," he rejected the world of Aristotelean scholasticism, in which all knowledge, whether of the self or of the world, was attained through an apprehension of God's order, and God's purpose. For the scholastics, knowledge came not from the study of nature, but from the study of God.
To say, with Descartes, that human thought is the basis of all knowledge, is a radical departure from the medieval mindset. There is an incredible passage in the Discourse on Method where Descartes "resolves" to leave behind the disputes and mysteries of the world known by the learned men of his day, and : "speak only of a new one, if God should create, somewhere in imaginary space, enough matter to make it; and if he agitated the various parts of this matter without order, making a chaos as confused as the poets could imagine, but that afterward he did nothing but lend his usual support to nature, allowing it to behave according to the laws he had established." This new universe, where the laws of its order are open to human reason, is the universe we inhabit today.
The separation of church and state follows from this same logic. Knowledge of God's will is, as the theological wars and disputes of the medieval world demonstrated, difficult for mere mortals to apprehend. But what if we were to construct social order based, not on our understanding of God's purpose, but on the basis of human reason? In other words it is not necessary for the Church to legitimate the authority of the state. If we use reason (God's greatest gift to man, Descartes would surely acknowledge) the knowledge of how to construct a just and peaceable society will be revealed to us, just as reason alone is able to reveal order in the chaos of nature.
And so you get "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, . . . That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..."
God given truths, yes. But these truths are made self evident by reason, and the government to secure these rights derives from the consent of the governed. It is a big step from God's truth to reasoned political legitimacy.
Yours,
Pinko
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what a joke this country is when half of went on during inauguration day involved prayers and how people are making such a stink he didn't do it on a bible. I pray for the day when religion is in the back seat of culture and politics and with every thing in this country.
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Judging from some of these responses, it's a wonder the utterance "God Save the Queen!" is not under challenge...
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You can swear on the Bible all you like, but it strikes me people need to open it at the New Testament a bit more often:
With $37,000 of annual hospital coverage, she thought it would at least get her in the door at M.D. Anderson, a leading cancer center. But they told her it was not enough.
So Kelly cashed in some of her husband's inheritance and came in with a check for $45,000. When her tests showed she needed immediate cancer treatment, the hospital asked for another $60,000 to admit her that day.
Kelly's situation is not unique. Nearly 4,200 out of the nation's 4,900 hospitals are beginning to require proof of payment up front for non-emergency needs. Meaning: if it is care you can schedule, the hospital wants to know how you will pay for it.
66. 2009, BraunSA wrote:
Judging from some of these responses, it's a wonder the utterance "God Save the Queen!" is not under challenge...
It often has been/is, but we tend to get round it by not singing it much. Anyway, you don't have to mean it. It's symbolic.
However, we've discovered a few forgotten verses that maybe we could use instead of the first one. (See the previous thread, where you'll find all of them.)
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I think someone mentioned the I Ching.
We've all missed this (from James Reynold's BBC China blog):
"the China Daily newspaper reports on Mark Ndesandjo, who is one of Mr Obama's half-brothers. The paper says that Mr Ndesanjado has lived in the southern Chinese city of Shenzhen for the last seven years (the paper reports that he is a vegetarian who practises Chinese calligraphy)."
Well, well.
Could Obama be a secret Confucian?
(And, Rush Limbaugh, if you pick this up, I want a tip fee.)
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The Squirrel Party would like humans to stop moithering* about whether they should paw a book and look out of the window.
It is very concerned about this even though it is still a bit upset with its grey cousins about that squirrel pox.
*Northern word, where we live in a kind of reservation, sadly. We were sort of 'renditioned' there, but at least we didn't get our tails pulled or anything.
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The important thing is if he does good. And not if he does things in the name of god.
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These two will get to swear an oath on a bible...to tell the truth when they give testimony at their trials.
From William Crawley's blog site;
"Father, forgive me...
Two priests, both originally from Ireland, are at the centre of the biggest embezzlement case in the history of the American Catholic Church. They are accused of stealing more than $800,000, from their parish collection plates, to fund holidays, gambling, and the expenses of lovers and mistresses. Monsignor John Skehan has already pleaded guilty to embezzlement. His colleague at St Vincent Ferrer Church, Fr Francis Guinan, denies the charge. Fr Skehan comes from Johnstown, in County Kilkenny, and Fr Guinan is originally from Birr, County Offaly. In fact, it was while returning from a trip to Ireland in 2006 that Fr Skehan was arrested."
So much for swearing on bibles.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ni/2009/01/father_forgive_me.html
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This talk of whether the Bible should have been used and if it really matters reminds me of the old English song about the Vicar of Bray who kept in step with whoever was the current royal encumbent.
At best, this would mean that the good old vicar could continue to work for the good of his flock.
'And this is law I will maintain
Until my dying day, sir,
That whatsoever King shall reign,
I'll be Vicar of Bray, sir.'
I am not suggesting that President Obama is anything but open about his religious beliefs.
But, dwellers on the right hand side of the 'Pond' you have done the right thing, you have elected the right man. America can now be a force for good in the world.
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72. margueritehegley wrote:
'And this is law I will maintain
Until my dying day, sir,
That whatsoever King shall reign,
I'll be Vicar of Bray, sir.'
Looks like the legislators are singing from the same old songsheet while everybody else is bothering about bibles:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/23/opinion/23brooks.html
By my (rough) calculations, that's another 600 billion or so likely to be entirely wasted to no useful purpose whatsoever.
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Obama is aware not to swear by anything as it says in the good book. Relevant, no. I think he is smart enough to know religion and politics do not mix.
Keep up the good work Mr Obama.
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Just a thought: using the bible to swear on is a bit incongruous- Jesus said that you should shouldn't swear (as in take oaths) and should let your yes be yes and your no be no.
Lets face it, if President Obama is going to defraud America of it's freedom and liberties - a fibbing on a bible isn't going to stop him.
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75 WearyPedant:
Didn't Nixon? He was supposed to have been a Quaker, and as I understand it, they won't swear an oath on a Bible.
If you are a believer, it's a bit more than a 'fib' isn't it? At least that's what I was taught at Sunday School.
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71, MarcusAureliusII
What's that got to do with anything, except as a display of yet another of your seemingly inexhasutible and tiresome prejudices?
Unless you are trying to claim they both swore a vow of poverty?
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No Bible? Why the surprise?
Surely people are more surprised he did n't use the Q'uoran???
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This is deeply ironic. The book on which Obama didn't swear contains these words from Jesus: "But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one." Matt 5:34-37
As a Christian I always chose to affirm when giving evidence in court, rather than swearing on the Bible.
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78, KAS1865
See 14.
And grammatically the meaning is the same both ways.
OK?
Now, Justin, can we please have something new?
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4.Ed Iglehart wrote:
"As an afterthought, does it matter if a left-handed person swears while holding up his/her right hand?"
I've been pondering over that. Must be an American thing. I was a witness once and on a jury at the Old Bailey once, and we were just asked to 'place your hand on the Bible and read out the words on the card'. I didn't, I 'affirmed'. No lifting of either hand involved.
(I see why the words have to be spoken out loud, though now. For Bush to put one hand on the Bible and hold one up in the air -- how would he have been able to follow the words on a card with his finger?)
Oh, I am so bored with this.
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Guns,
Both, I think, because (as I understand it), Deism involves belief in "a" God, and is thus "theist" (as I understand the term).All the Founders seem to have felt the need to 'respect' the capital (the Earth and all its gifts) upon which our civilisation was to be built, and their documents are filled with expressions of this 'respect' and nods to 'providance'
As far as I'm concerned, I find this a healthy sign, and preferable to my elsewhere expressed disdain for the Hubris involved in some manifestations of humanism.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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Chiong,
With respect, Jesus was actually quite a serious student of Judaic Law. he may have been against the religious "establishment" of his time, but I don't think he (nor any of the others(possibly excepting Confucious)) can be properly termed atheist.Regarding Jesus, This may be of interest
Peace
ed
Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know.
Lao Tzu
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*GASP*
perhaps it's all a conspiracy?
He deliberately fluffed his lines so that he would have to take the oath again, and then could take a real oath without a bible.
something for the right-wingers to fret about ;)
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#55
Er, I always thought Jesus was Jewish. Thats why the thought of anti-semitic Christians...well you've got to laugh haven't you?
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#83
Dag nammit, you beat me to it. :)
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This issue reminds me of the efforts made by the right wing to cast doubts about President Obama's citizenship, even after he produced a birth certificate that shows he was born in Hawaii. The intent was, of course, to tarnish the legitimacy of his candidacy, and deflect attention from the fact that his opponent was born in a US military base...in Panama...and thus eligible for dual citizenship.
I think it is truly amazing that people in countries beset by huge domestic and international problems continue to spend their time discussing divine platitudes instead of trying to determine what they can do to help our countries overcome the difficulties that threaten our future. I am afraid miracles are not among the likely solutions to our problems.
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Time for a few words from "the oldest revolutionary",
(from an exploration of the nature of money)In $$$$$$ we trust
ed
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85. Athornton_reed wrote:
#55
Er, I always thought Jesus was Jewish. Thats why the thought of anti-semitic Christians...well you've got to laugh haven't you?
Not really, no. (Grimly.)
Have you seen some of those American 'Christian Right' sites?
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There are many contradictions in the Bible that prove the Bible has "additions", "deletions", and "mistranslations" of the original texts. A Bible that gives two contradictory reasons why the Israelites did not invade Caanan directly from Egypt is no more a guarantee of "truth" or fidelity than a Qu'ran which gives two contradictory reasons why Jews "should" live in Israel.
It should be obvious that an oath made publicly to God is all that is required for a believer in God to "prove" his word to other believers. Those that believe that "touching" a Bible or a Qu'ran is additional proof only prove their faith in idolatry and in the accuracy of "prophets" and "disciples" that contradict each other.
And in their absurd belief that it is necessary for a secular state to assert a "trust" in God, when it is impossible to both "believe" in a God that can kill innocent Egyptian children in 1300BC with plague but not "trust" that this same God can stop innocent Jewish children from being killed 3240 years after.
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87, saintDominick
I and the squirrels heartily concur, but we're not making a lot of headway, are we?
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ref #63
As far as closing Gitmo, one of the released who was suposidly rehabilitated in Saudia Arabia, became operation chief for Al Quda Yemin.
Just a note to those who think everyone in Gitmo is innocent.
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Perhaps they should have recorded it and just played the tape instead?
(I've just heard that John Williams thing. What a load of plagiaristic fourth-rate rubbish.)
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The general concensus of opinion here seems to be that "symbolism" in 2009 should be forgotten.
The oath to do one's duty to complete one's office in high position should be enough for modern day thinking and old symbolic accompaniements and traditions [the bible, {or other}] are old hat. The quicker we lose them all the better? Risk the wrath of any entity above {God?} if he should exist?. For entry into the position of President , the biblical link has not been written in stone to make it a necessary part of the ceremony
I am reminded of Gordon Brown, as then Chancellor of the Exchequer deciding to attend the Lord Mayor's Mansion House Speech wearing a dark suit [and brown suede shoes?] instead of the traditional black tie and tails. Avoiding tradition / symbolism for many years, did he begin this economic slide for us Brits into today's fiasco?. Just superstition on my part? Respect for an old custom? An uncouth stand by Brown tempting fate? { the present chancellor now wears the black tie again ! He needs all the help he can get.}
How forward thinking should we be with symbolism in 2009. Forget black rod and associated Houses of parliament mumbo-jumbo? Sure. Not God save the Queen, but just- Save her. I look forward to Obama asking for a bacon sandwich or pork chop when visiting Israel's Knesset to attend an official function. No skin off my nose.
America has few old historic traditions and symbolism. You cut the umbilical cord from the mother many years ago and now wish to dump the father as well? Unfortunately with almost an incest / Oedipus complex, America our child, goes back to the mother and we Europeans flock to enter our child- the USA. Our future is linked to our past, so how much is immediately discardable with out upsetting fellow older citizens? Some Repubs with a simple belief have enough trouble accepting that the Dems came to power with all the liberal changes that could immediately occur without having their noses rubbed in it. Walk, don't run?
I have no axe to grind with the bible custom at the inaugaration. Using the Farmers and Gardeners manual [ if historically symbolic ] would be just as good
for me -if it had been used. My initial standpoint was concerning the attempt to prevent the "misrepresentation card" that could be played as suggested by nessie1945's cartoon # 38 [ previous thread] by moving too quickly. I do understand for the many disappointed, that nothing can change fast enough.
Although scientifically minded I can not accept that we can make something from nothing, hence our universe did not just come into being. Should we suggest a "Him [or Her] made it, one can also ask where did he/she come from? A chicken and egg conundrum unless one rules in spontaneous magic.
I am happy being a dinosaur [ with associated brain size- zilch] without any club memberships. Millions of years here and still surviving the new modern face, yet trying to ride with it.
Throwing out the "Father" bit is fine. Politics does not need a religious link. Pity none of us can disregard Father Time.
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At the side of this blog it says "my blog has been dominated by the US presidential election - but this is the world's most fascinating, open and complex place, so there's plenty for us to talk about ..."
I'm waiting Justin, I'm waiting.
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A lot of comments on for a non-issue. Obama is president. I don't care if it happened at noon or at night. He's the president. The important thing is he's already doing amazing things.
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Ref 90
"...but not "trust" that this same God can stop innocent Jewish children from being killed 3240 years after."
That same "God" was conspicuous by his absence during the recent slaughter of hundreds of innocent Palestinian children in Gaza.
Perhaps instead of hoping for divine intervention to solve the brutality of those who consider themselves the children of an elusive Supreme Being we should try to find ways to impress on them the need to act like humans.
A good start would be to stop our unconditional moral support to allies whose actions are devoid of humanity and fueled by irrational cultural hatred and policies of expansion. Stopping financial and military aid until permanent solutions are negotiated would expedite the achievement of our goals, if those goals actually include global stabilization and the survival of our planet.
Considering what took place the past 8 years, peace and the pursuit of happiness do not rank very high in our list of priorities. Instead, everything indicates a desire to foster hatred, violence, and rejection of international laws to achieve the goal of maintaining the status quo by promoting a climate of irrational fear and cultural hatred.
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#89
Point taken, I should have followed laugh with 'or weep in exasperation'.
I've not had the misfortune to visit those types of site (things like that bring me out in a rash) but I can only too easily imagine the kind of drivel (can't use the word i'd like) thats on them.
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#77 british-ish
71, MarcusAureliusII
"What's that got to do with anything, except as a display of yet another of your seemingly inexhasutible and tiresome prejudices?"
I think many people misunderstand MarcusAureliusII. Marcus is a very patriotic American who loves his country and who will defend it against reckless criticism. The prejudice you sense can be attributed to the many salvos being hurled from the other side of the pond whose only purpose is to hurt and insult. And now you're feeling the effects of all your venomous attacks which has now put you on the defensive. Since we're talking about the bible, let's think about the saying "As you sew, so shell you reap." Of course, this is a lesson that we should all keep in mind.
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95. gtkovacs wrote:
At the side of this blog it says "my blog has been dominated by the US presidential election - but this is the world's most fascinating, open and complex place, so there's plenty for us to talk about ..."
Well, you could sneak off back to 'Freethinkers Welcome' where we've been doing a bit on breakfasts, bacon and biscuits. (Not wafers though.) You know, important stuff. Just to fill in the time.
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99. lochraven wrote:
#77 british-ish
"As you sew, so shell you reap." Of course, this is a lesson that we should all keep in mind.
What has needlework got to do with it? Unless you mean that some of us have got very tired of MAII's constant needling and unpleasantness, and I will make no apology for doing my best to expose unfounded prejudices or deter malicious attacks on sensible, rational, and polite contributors.
Ha is one who has never yet answered any argument of mine--or of others--with anything other than a snide remark at the very best.
If that is patriotism, then it is of the type on which Dr Johnson commented.
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97 saintDominick wrote:
"Considering what took place the past 8 years. . ."
Didn't you get the email apology from the US Customer Services Department?
Quite nice of them I thought, really.
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#99
You should really read some of MAII's previous posts. There's being patriotic and then there's being borderline xenophobic...and I'm being generous with the word borderline.
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I am always amused when people (usually evangelical Christians) refer to "the Bible" as though there was only one--the version they happen to be using in their church and Sunday school. There are, in fact, several versions or editions of the Bible: Latin Vulgate, Douay-Rheims, King James, Oxford annotated, etc., to say nothing of the Hebrew and Greek editions of the various parts. Many of these "Bibles" include different books. The Douay-Rheims edition used by the Catholic church, for example, has additional books in the Old Testament from what the King James translation uses. So the very fact that people blithely refer to "the Bible" shows a lack of awareness of the differentness of various denominations (or heretic sects, depending on your point of view).
So, to further complicate the question of "does it count if he doesn't take the oath on a Bible?": will evangelical Protestants accept it if the oath is taken on a Douay-Rheims Bible? What did John Kennedy (a Catholic) use? I don't remember the question coming up then. Legally, as others have pointed out, the Bible is not necessary. What it really comes down to is what will the electorate accept as being the proper way to take the oath of office? There are going to be loonies who will not accept him as president even if he had taken the oath on a stack of various editions of the Bible, but most people regard the oath as essentially symbolic and don't care what, if any, Bible he used.
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#77, I didn't expect you to understand the meaning or see the irony of my posting. You are after all only british........-ish.
I understand completely your desire to restrict discussions to topics you understand such as biscuits and bacon #100. (This is what the British population...calls an elementary education...Professor Higgins.) Your propensity to restrict others to topics of interest to you and opinions only allowed to be published that agree with yours is one of endless examples I've cited demonstrating the European propensity for despotism and tyranny, an inherent characteristic that cuts across European cultures. Europeans are also infuriated by the suggestion that not only isn't Europe in whole or in part superior to America's civilization but clearly far inferior to it. But the facts are clear. I've given plenty of evidence not only for that by direct comparison between them but by the staggering unparalleled mass migration of Europeans to America to become Americans or at least live most of their life out here from all parts of Europe and over centuries. A comparable migration in the opposite direction was never in evidence.
lochraven #99, you are right. Europeans hate it when the shoe is on the other foot for once and it is they who are being bashed by an American for a change. And they have so may indefensible targets to be bashed about. What is it they say about people in glass houses not throwing stones? Kerblam!
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lochraven # 99,
I do not misunderstand Marcus [usually], and always enjoy his views of the world in general
Agreed Marcus is patriotic but in # 71, was he defending it.[The USA] or not?
He attempted to show the "value of swearing on bibles", but in the same piece brought the fact that these priests were now resident in America.
Was it an admission by Marcus of a distorting American influence on innocent Irish priests?
In Ireland it would have been cents in the plate but in America hundreds of thousands of dollars.
America ends up doing the good and bad in a much bigger way than we small-fry.
ps Loved the play upon words.
Two for one? The God of Small Things
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103. thornton_reed wrote:
#99
There's being patriotic and then there's being borderline xenophobic...and I'm being generous with the word borderline.
And the xenophobia is contained within a very small territorial boundary inclusive only of a single-hued population and an easily distinguishable mindset.
Which is why I now so often criticise the emanations of it.
(Bit circumlocutory, that, I know, but it's terribly easy to get caught out by the mods where MAII and one or two others are concerned. We've lost a few good people from this blog that way.)
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Swearing on a Bible or Koran is not meant for God since the deity should know whether one means what he or she is saying. It (Swearing on the Bible) is a symbol to onlookers who can't see ones real intentions that they are serious and are making a pledge in all honesty. If there is no public audience there is no need to use the Bible or koran ( for Mulsims) just as you being naked while in private is not indecent. barack did not need to show that he was being sincere to himself - so NO BIBLE
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105, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
#77, I didn't expect you to understand the meaning or see the irony of my posting. You are after all only british........-ish.
I think I (and I am sure other readers) comprehend the "meaning", and subtext, of your post all too well.
But perhaps you would care to explain it, and its relevance to this thread, more clearly, just for me? Since I have not had the advantage of an American education?
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Handbags away please ladies....
As for MAII, what is with the anti-european rant you just gave us? Neither America nor Europe are perfect. It would be foolish for someone to say that.
As for your comment on despotism and tyranny....well I'm pretty sure at this present time there aren't any dictators in europe, nor have there been since WWII. Since America has been a civilisation I cannot think of any tyrannical rulers which would lead me to suspect Europeans have a propensity towards them. If you wish to use historic figures then that is inaccurate as America has not been in existance for anywhere near as long as Europe (in a civilized sense).
Also, it is fairly hypocritcal for your to insult Europe and then moan about people who "bash" Americans. Why not rise above it, surely that would be the more mature thing to do.
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Never mind the source, Chuckle is good for you
;-0
ed
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Obama's second oath met the requirements for Article 2, Section 1 of the US Constitution.
Any other complaints are just whinging.
I am a conservative US citizen, BTW, and voted against that socialist loon. But he did meet the requirements for the oath ... so could we move on? I'm sure we will find things more serious to complain about soon ...
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108. Ubitmike wrote:
Swearing on a Bible or Koran is not meant for God since the deity should know whether one means what he or she is saying. It (Swearing on the Bible) is a symbol to onlookers who can't see ones real intentions that they are serious and are making a pledge in all honesty.
I've been wondering about when the idea was introduced. After the first printed Bibles, presumably? Before that, you would have been asked to swear on the cross, I think. So Christianity got on quite well without it for nearly a millennium and a half.
Maybe someone could help?
I'm sure there must be other sects apart from the Quakers who either will not swear an oath in this form, or will not use a Bible when doing it, but I'm not a theologian.
And since, as Ed has pointed out, the 'Founding Fathers' were deists, or theists, it seems unlikely that 'swearing on the Bible' was intended to be obligatory.
As Justin pointed out, presidents have been sworn in without a Bible in the past.
So, surely, this is all a transient fuss kicked up by sectarian interests reflecting just one part of the US population?
(Not, he says glumly, half as transient as it could do with being, there being so many other things of great moment pressing.)
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Ref 102, British-ish
Hopefully other countries, allies and foes alike, will soon be able to submit their apologies as more progressive leaders focused on the well being of their fellow citizens and the survival of our planet continue to emerge.
Above all, we must continue to move towards more inclusive and tolerant policies and relationships designed to foster peace and cooperation based on mutual respect, rather than arrogance, greed, and revenge.
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112
kkbarrett wrote:
Obama's second oath met the requirements for Article 2, Section 1 of the US Constitution.
Any other complaints are just whinging.
I am a conservative US citizen, BTW, and voted against that socialist loon. But he did meet the requirements for the oath ... so could we move on?
A few of us have been trying to, but we don't seem to have gained a majority yet.
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Friends, strawmen and countrymen,
Bend me your years,
I come to rejoice [please insert any name] presence on the blog not to antagonise them.
Put yourself in their place.
Imagine spending your first few years calling every glass container Mummy.....
Even worse being born with the taste of rubber in your mouth wondering......
A twisted mind because of an ill placed spiral...out of control....
Needing new pills today, because the other ones of yesteryear did not work.....
Or a natural happening.
We are all a wonder.
Every person present is a gift to our world.
Life would be as nothing without actions and reactions, and your presence here makes it all enjoyable.
wma
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110. At 3:18pm on 23 Jan 2009, SaintOne wrote:
As for MAII, what is with the anti-european rant you just gave us? . . .Why not rise above it, surely that would be the more mature thing to do.
Don't expect an answer for a while; if you click on his name you'll see he's busy all around the BBC blogosphere today. Same stuff, mostly.
He's about as likely to 'rise above it' as a lead balloon is likely to rise above the troposphere.
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IF he did take his second oath without the bible does that mean he did not take his oath with the bible?
Actually Obama took his oath with the bible. Ihe fact is undeniably true.
It is an assertion I am making.
Thank you.
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I MEAN IF AT THE INUAGUARATION,HE SWORE WITH THE BIBLE DURING THE FIRST OATH,IT MEANS THAT OBAMA TOOK HIS OATH BWITH BIBLE.
IT CANNOT BE SAID HE DID NOT USE THE BIBLE.
THA I WHAT I MEANT.
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IT MEANSTHAT A BIBLE IS NOT IPORTANT IN BECOMING A PRESIDENT.
THAT IS WHY HIS NOT USING ABIBLE WAS OVERLOOKED
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SaintOne, are your blind or do you just not watch the news on TV, listen to it on the radio, read newspapers, or follow it on the internet. Europe not despotic?
Here's a partial list that is indisputable;
All of Eastern Europe under the Warsaw Pact. Serbia until 2000. All of the former Soviet slave states until 1991. Belarus today. Russia today. Franco's Spain. And of course the ultimate despotism, the EUSSR itself.
Now for those I see as despotic. The UK which has a monarch for its head of state, a sanctioned aristocricy from whose members its upper legislative house is exclusively chosen, an official state religion, and will not allow its citizens anywhere near a public referendum to vote on a treaty to cede most of its remaining sovereignty to the EUSSR. France which is openly racist without dispute. Germany which is openly racist without dispute. Spain which is openly racist without dispute. Italy which is openly racist without dispute. Ethnic and racial minorities in these countries are entirely disenfranchised, have no chance at holding power, no chance for an equal opportunity to get a job, are discriminated agiainst in housing, employment and in every other way with no redress. Laws on the books prohibiting this are never enforced. Ireland where the population voted agasint the Lisbon Treaty and will be forced to vote again as many times as it takes to get it right. France where a public vote on the EU constitution rejected it and where the public will never have another opportunity again to voice its opinion or direct the state in this matter because it didn't get it right in the opinion of the ruling elite. All over Europe there are all different forms of petty despotisms where ordinary citizens have no say in the laws and practices which directly affect their lives or how are decided and carried out.
Maybe neither America nor Europe is perfect as you say but when it comes to democracy, America is far more perfect than Europe. And it doesn't have a government sanctioned quasi monopoly subsidiary over the media so vital in public debate which strongly shapes public opinion the way the UK for example has with the BBC.
British-ish, it is not my job to educate you. If you don't understand my posting, that is your problem. Lots of others got it...even if they didn't like it.
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Post No. 113. british-ish
"I've been wondering about when the idea was introduced. After the first printed Bibles, presumably? Before that, you would have been asked to swear on the cross, I think. So Christianity got on quite well without it for nearly a millennium and a half.
Maybe someone could help?"
I'm not sure when swearing on the bible became common place but I understand that in the Middle Ages oaths were often sworn on holy relics - usually the bones of local saints. Perhaps future inaugurations could dig up part of Washington or Jefferson or for something more recent maybe a bit of St Ronnie.
You're all doing very well !!
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IT MEANS THAT A BIBLE IS NOT IPORTANT IN BECOMING A PRESIDENT.
THAT IS WHY HIS NOT USING A BIBLE WAS OVERLOOKED.
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obenjoe, doesn't your keyboard have both upper and lower case?
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british-ish, wrong as usual.
From Obama's inaugural speech;
"For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness.
We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus, and nonbelievers. We are shaped by every language and culture, drawn from every end of this Earth."
This is one place all of Europe gets it dead wrong. And it will consume Europe just as it was consuming the US until we recognized it and took steps to fix it. That's another big difference. America examines itself constantly, faces its mistakes and works to fix them. Europe won't even admit it has any problems. That is why it is running headlong over a cliff. It has nearly reached the edge and there seems to be no turning back for them. Nothing I say will ever make them consider taking their blinders off. That's the way they are. That is what I saw without commenting on it when I lived there. A catastrophic train wreck on the way to happening.
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121.MarcusAureliusII wrote:
British-ish, it is not my job to educate you. If you don't understand my posting, that is your problem. Lots of others got it...even if they didn't like it.
As I have said, I believe I understand it perfectly well, and I have nothing but contempt for your opinions, attitudes, mode of expression, ignorance of history, constant misrepresentations, and above all unwillingness to enter into debate.
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british-ish (#113), reportedly, Masons use a bible (along with other artifacts) when taking an oath during the initiation ritual. This ritual would be as old as the Masons, I expect.
George Washington chose to use a bible when taking his oath, and I believe that he was a Mason, so it would be natural for him to do so.
The inaugural ceremony evolved from Washington's precedents, but it clearly has come a long way. GW had an inaugural ball, but I don't think he had a poetry reading. He did add "So help me, God" after the oath, as nearly all other presidents have.
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Addendum: apparently, the phrase "So help me, God" is taken directly from the Masonic oaths, so again, it is natural that Washington would have added it.
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President Obama went through the first swearing-in ceremony with his hand on the Bible and because of a procedural slip went through it a second time. On the second occasion he did not swear on the bible. One should not read too much into this! Making a mountain out of a mole hill is definitely not important. What is important is that America has got an intelligent vibrant President who is determined to make a difference and tackle the country's economic ills as well as repair America's image abroad with an experienced cabinet and team of advisers. There is so much hope and real belief in his abilities and intentions from home and abroad that he would make a real difference. So we should concentrate on giving him the encouragement as he has already started working so tirelessly to entangle the mess he has inherited.
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british-ish, here's a link to a document showing a man about to take a Masonic oath, holding a bible, said to date from the early 1400s in Scotland:
http://www.robertlomas.com/Freemason/Origins.html
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
" ... attitude ... typifies that of ... Europeans ... "?!!
I'm an American who has never lived in Europe, and I'm happy to reject paranoic xenophobia and endorse the "attitude" of british-ish without reservation.
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british-ish (#113), to be precise, Ed has asserted "that the founding fathers were deists." I believe he is mistaken. Certainly Franklin and Jefferson, but not most of them. Whether Washington was or not is debatable. Here's a link to an interesting discussion of that point:
http://www.adherents.com/people/pw/George_Washington.html
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#121 MAII:
"Now for those I see as despotic. The UK which has a monarch for its head of state, a sanctioned aristocricy from whose members its upper legislative house is exclusively chosen,"
Quite fantastically wrong. The hereditary peers having been removed from the House of Lords years ago. A house of appointees may not be much better but you are still utterly out of date.
"And it doesn't have a government sanctioned quasi monopoly subsidiary over the media so vital in public debate which strongly shapes public opinion the way the UK for example has with the BBC."
Right the BBC has a quasi monopoly; well if you ignore ITV, Channel 4, Five, and the entire Sky network. And do we need to point out once again you are being granted the freedom to express your opinions on the very BBC you seem to despise?
You are simply a bigot who can't even be bothered with the least effort to check the facts of the fatuous statements you make.
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MAII.
It's the usual extremism with no supportive facts that we object to.
Europe is not running over a cliff and how is, as you so wittilly refer to it as the EUSSR any different from the USA?
Are you trying to say that the USA is not racist? If so it's the most laughable of many, many inane statements you have made.
The USA have turned it's back on the ideals it once at least gave lip service to of equality, freedom and tolerance.
You say Ireland voted no to the Lisbon treaty yet will be forced to re-vote until they pass it, if that is the case how come many scandinavian countries have not done the same thing. How come Britain steadfastly stuck to Sterling instead of the Euro despide the socialist pressure of the EUSSR? Why is it that Russia goes against the EUSSR at every possible opportunity? Surely they will be comrades?
Why is it that it's not enough to be a lifelong citizen in order to become POTUS but you need to actuall be born there? Of course minorities are not well represented in every country as they by definition do not have the size or the voting power to enact real change. Only when someone comes that can succesfully cross the devide such as Obame will the minority get some semblence of a voice.
Or is it the usual fear or change, the unknow and a shift to the balance of power that has you frightened and making preposterous statements?
The EU is not a socialist, idealogcal or sinister group. It is purely in lace to compete finacially with the larger countries such as China and the USA.
It is, like many things the right label socialism, capitalism in it's purest form.
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Gary_A_Hill
Perhaps if you went to Europe and lived there for a few years like I did, you might change your mind. There is no substitute for seeing it and discovering it for what it really is, not what travel agents say it is, with your own eyes. I think you would be very much surprised. Most Americans who live there that I've talked to are.
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BHO is just dead-set on setting up his first 100 daze as a mess of contradictions. He puts the American Republic through the "Lord's Prayer" on national televison, and then in the privacy of his new home skips the bible?
Thanks Barry. The only change I believe in is the 68 cents in US coin I'm carrying around in my pocket.
Personally, I haven't believed in God for the last thirty-nine years; I haven't believed you possess an ounce of integrity ever since you edited the Harvard Law Review, and skipped out of town with a couple hundred bucks in unpaid parking tickets.
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british-ish #126
The feeling is mutual. I know you will not accept my opinion that it is far more prevalent among Americans than most people in Europe would like to think. Most Americans unlike me are far too polite to express it though directly to Europeans and only speak this way among ourselves when we bother to think about Europe at all.
I am not surprised at your attitude. It typifies that of most Europeans I've met or seen and heard in the media. I'm also not surprised at your outrage or that of others from Europe at mine. Your notion that Europeans can say just about anything they want to with no reaction from Americans and that Americans are too stupid or ignorant to react to it or will just allow it to pass unnoticed is a delusion I think Europe would love to cherish as long as it can.
If you listened carefully to President Obama's words such as he spoke in Berlin last summer instead of merely being hypnotized by his personna or just grateful that he is not George Bush, you will find that in the relationship between Europe and America, he expects that Europe will have to go a long way to patch up the bridges it burned. I think Europeans just don't get it. Short of that, I think relations between the two civilizations will continue to worsen as their paths diverge. America's descent is not unprecedented, temporary even if it is painful and protracted. It has survived worse in the past, much worse. It seems to me, Europe's problems are more permanent. President Obama said early on in the campaign that Europe faces a ticking demographic time bomb. Do you recall that?
Contrary to what has been posted on the Editor's blog site and on Robin Lustig's, the notion of America as a European nation as one lunatic fringe group put it does not represent the vast majority of Americans or Alabamans. However, it was a way for BBC to both criticize parts of America as racist and to reassure itself of strong ties to to the US. This IMO is a false notion shared by only a handful of extremists who are insignificant to the mainstram of American politics and culture. The election of Barack Obama who was born far closer to the Pacific rim nations than to Europe and lived for a time during his formative years in Asia, not Europe is symbolic of the shift away from that perception. America is growing darker, more Asiatic, more Latino, and more African in appearance and heritage but its core values embodied in its founding documents never change. That, not a shared history like other nations have is what binds it Americans together so tightly. That may be why people from other countries cannot ever really understand America. That is also why it will survive and prosper. As for Europe's future, I have no such confidence in it at all.
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130. Gary_A_Hill
I do feel a bit sceptical, but it's 'not my period' as they say, and I just don't know enough about medieval iconography or, say, penitential practises, to be able to take it any further.
Thanks for 132, but you realise you're in for it now :-)
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I am not interested in engaging in long discussions about who is better or worse, but I would like to offer my opinion which is, perhaps simplistically, based on the conviction that as individuals our strengths and weaknesses are influenced by our education, upbringing, experiences, and the circumstances of our lives rather than by geography, ideology, or nationality.
There is no such a thing as a better or worse ethnic group or nation, we excel or fail as individuals, not as homogenous groups of think-alike robots. Unfortunately, there are times when our "leaders" have designs of their own that narrow our choices and force us to follow paths that often differ from our values and are not in consonance with our goals or wishes.
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MAII.
I've lived there for 25 years. The EU has allowed much poorer european countires to compete and prosper. It allows the holders of EU passports to freely move, live and work in many different countries. It has given countries such as Ireland a bigger say in the direction of the Union than it possibly should have due to it's size.
No country is perfect, no group like this is perfect but rabid nationalism, hate and racism is in my opinion limited not encouraged by this. there are no senators in Europen countries requesting that other senators take a loyalty test similar to that requested by the republican senator with regards to their "americanism".
I've lived in America and Europe and can say that i would rather live in Europe at the moment. I'd feel safer and as a bit of an intellectual would feel more appreciated. I have a fervent belief that Obama can enact some serious change and unlike you my mind can be changes.
You see i'm not afraid. It's a liberating feeling.
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"As for Europe's future, I have no such confidence in it at all."
What do you think is going to happen to it?
Will we wake up one morning and it wont be there? Will we regress to the dark ages of strife and war, life in caves by candle light? Maybe that's what happened with Atlantis, it burned all of it's bridges with America and suck into the sea. America is still a large importer of European goods and a large exporter to Europe. How many european countries were in the coalition of the willing? Was Britain not a massive ally? France is not the EU! If any bridges were burned they were lit on the west of the Atlantic by a meglomaniac who sent out invading forces to not one but two foreign countries on the basis of a known lie. who said if we are not with you we are with the terrorists! Who tortured inmates and roared with anger when people fought back. Who have installed democracy only to keep control on their oil.
Europe has had it's fair share of war and european countries have started more than one but they have paid the price for it. were will the nuremberg trials for Iraq take place? Do war crimes only count for those who lose?
You reference no facts to support this, you instead quote a person who only months ago it was believed would send America into civil war or destroy it all together.
Europe is not Freddie Mac. It won't dissolve. It will prevail, even through a severe economic downturn caused in no little way by, well you know who.
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No bible for the second oath? Good. That should make the right-wingnuts that weren't already preparing for Armageddon think that Obama really is the Antichrist. "Let's see:" they think, "he rides in a limo called 'the Beast,' fits the description from Revelation perfectly (or so my preacher tells me--I don't like to read that stuff) and the "legitimate" swearing in wasn't even done on a bible!" How disappointed they will be when President Obama leaves office in 4-8 years and none of them have been raptured!
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Ref 104
timohio wrote:
It may be of mild interest that the preacher who gave the invocation, Rick Warren, quoted from about 15 different modern-text versions of the bible in his best selling book The Purpose Driven Life.
I have read 3 or 4 of the versions and browsed several others of the modern-text bibles Warren used for his book. Each of the modern biblical texts differed from the other according to the self-interests of the authors. Warren used craft to select from these texts as a means of qualifying his self-serving points in his book.
In order to "cover all the bases" for the swearing-in of the new President; Justice Roberts and President-elect Obama would have had to stack all the versions of the bible and do the swearing-in from the bucket of a cherry picker. Or for the sake of convienence; do the swearing-in ceremony in the Class B section at the Library of Congress.
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MAII
We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus, and nonbelievers. We are shaped by every language and culture, drawn from every end of this Earth."
This is one place all of Europe gets it dead wrong. And it will consume Europe just as it was consuming the US
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Take the blinkers off. religious intolerance was splashed across the media since 2001 to the point that someone was falesly accused of being a muslim like it was a bad thing.
You have managed to break one taboo with a black president and are to be praised for that. But hs religion and sexuality is still an issue and to a lesser extent marital status don't get all high and mighty just yet. If i was born in america i would have no chance of being elected due to being a single athiest. Imagine a muslim president or better yet a gay president.
If you trully examined and fixed your mistakes the republicans woud apologise for linking islam with being a bad person and of course allow gay people to marry.
Now i'm aware that the above is also an issue in many parts of the world and especially in europe but we don't take the moral high ground and crow abot being multi cultural while suppressing the rights of a large number, but unfortunatelly a low percentage of our citizens.
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And wasn't the car that drove him and Bush called 'the beast?' and were not the illinois lottery number on the following day '666'? I can see now all the illuminati conspiracy theorists going on and on about all this...
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Ref. 145
"Imagine a muslim president or better yet a gay president. "
I can, actually. An atheist is a stretch, though, yes. We are, as the Pope said, a pious country. And we have had single presidents in the past.
"If you trully examined and fixed your mistakes the republicans woud apologise for linking islam with being a bad person and of course allow gay people to marry."
Bigotry and homophobia are still very much an issue in the States. It is somewhat encouraging that the party itself never made that argument directly, I think.
"Suppressing the rights of a large number, but unfortunatelly a low percentage of our citizens."
The U.S. government has no such laws, so it's hard to argue that a large number of citizens are being repressed. For instance, unlike in Europe, the U.S. government cannot ban a political party, nor can it bar anyone from employment based on political affiliation which most Americans would identify as a violation of civil rights.
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"And wasn't the car that drove him and Bush called 'the beast?' and were not the illinois lottery number on the following day '666'? I can see now all the illuminati conspiracy theorists going on and on about all this..."
Yes, that's the car's nickname. Americans use of the term "beast" isn't limited to biblical reference. Anything big and burly could be called a beast.
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re. 144. publiusdetroit:
"In order to "cover all the bases" for the swearing-in of the new President; Justice Roberts and President-elect Obama would have had to stack all the versions of the bible and do the swearing-in from the bucket of a cherry picker. Or for the sake of convienence; do the swearing-in ceremony in the Class B section at the Library of Congress."
Oh, I love it! The mental image is just too much to resist. It would be equal parts Founding Fathers and American Gladiator.
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Ref 145 everyoneiscrazy
There is much speculation that our 15th President, James Buchanan, was gay. He lived many years with Alabama Senator William Rufus King who was called "Miss Nancy" by Andrew Jackson.
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apparently the 'pentagon' is the illuminati HQ
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AsaScot #134
("This is what the British population, calls an elementary education"...Professor Higgins.)
I did NOT say that the members of the House of Lords were drawn from a group that is restricted by heredity. But it is restricted to be drawn from a selected elite. Elitism is a characteristic of European tyranny abhorrent to most Americans. It's what the founding fathers revolted against. This may be one reason so many Europeans detested President Bush, his demeanor was one of a commoner (Yo Blair and Angela Merkel's backrub.) Yet if you examine what President Obama has been saying about many issues of concern to Europeans, it is not all that different from the substance of what President Bush said.
If BBC is not a sanctioned quasi monopoly, then how do you explain that to obtain a license for a television set, someone in Britain must pay its license fee to BBC? If that doesn't give it an unfair advantage, what would? And based on that, just compare its budget and resources to any other media outlet and not just in Britain. And as I've pointed out, because of NPR's and PBS's contracts with BBC and Federal tax subsidies to PBS and NPR, every American in a sense pays a license fee tax to BBC. That gives me every right to criticize it.
evereyoneiscrazy #135
If the EUSSR is no different from the USA, why have well over 100 million Europeans fled to the US? While there are still racist acts in the US, as an accepted aspect of the culture and a widespread practice it has been sharply reduced and is largely disappearing. President Obama would not have won the Presidency if he didn't have widespread support from all segments of society including Latinos, Asians, and Whites. Where is Europe's Martin Luthor King? There can be no Barack Obama until there is a Martin Luthor King to awaken the conscience of the population and bring about widespread change. The truth is that he is nowhere to be found. When Europe's racism is pointed out, they make excuses for it, find isolated examples of where it still exists in America, when it isn't mentioned, they pretend it doesn't exist. But if your name is Mohammed and you submit a resume for a job in France, your CV goes in the trash without being read even if you have a PHD.
Why must the POTUS have been born in America? Because the founding fathers agreed that is the only sure way to be as certain as possible that the President both understands exactly what America is about and will have no divided loyalties. Most Americans don't want to change this.
#141, the EU was enlarged because Chirac, Schroeder, and their ilk want Europe to be a unified political, economic, and military power that will "challenge" the US as Chirac and deVillepin often put it. They didn't want a unipolar world. In their cynical manipulation of European public opinion, they have virtually declared war on the US and their populations fell for it. On the continent, about 90% of public opinion has been against the US during these last trying years, in Britain, about 50%. Now their successors want the war to be over but it can't be. Bush didn't make new enemies for America as his critics claimed, he merely exposed old ones who pretended to be America's friends when they needed it and then turned their backs on it when they didn't. Proof? European failure (except for the UK) across the board to meet its obligations under the mutual defense treaty NATO to send soldiers to fight in Afghanistan. With false friends like Europeans, America doesn't need enemies, it already had them all along. And the transfer of money from donor to recipient nations in the EU? Bribes for agreeing to join.
#142, the Dodgy Dossier was British, not American. Tony Blair believed it, why wouldn't the American government. It was consistent with a tapestry of other sources and Iraq's behavior. It was much safer to crush Iraq than to take a chance that these threats were real. Besides, as I've repeated countless times, the Director of the CIA George Tenet told Bush directly when asked, that Iraq having WMDs was "a slam dunk" and Putin warned Bush personally that Iraq was planning an attack on the US.
If you don't know what is happening to Europe or what likely lies in store for it evereyoneiscrazy, you must be living in a cave. Just read BBC's blog site and you will see it plain and clear from a source YOU trust.
Europe is on its own now. No more American one way trade deals to keep it from falling into the sphere of the USSR. Personally, I think the US should pull out of NATO. I don't see what value it is to America anymore. If Europe has problems with Russia, it should handle them itself at its own cost.
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I am fed up to the back teeth with Americans going on and on and on about their consitution and the so-called founding fathers. These men were not interested in what we call democracy. They shaped the constitution with a view to excluding ordinary people as far as possible from the process of running the country. Franklin, the most famous of them, was a slave owner.
As for the advantage of having, unlike the UK, a written constitution, this is debatable, because the lawyers can twist said written document to mean what they like. Was it last year the legilsture of one state (maybe Georgia, can't remember) managed in its wisdom to say that the passage about the right to bear arms is NOT concerned specifically with an official militia?
It is crazy to think that a document written so long ago can be some kind of infallible - almost holy - guide for the present day.
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now,now marcus,
Have a nice cup of tea & a nob nob,plus an early night .It will all be better in the morning.
Night night,,,
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here is Europe's Martin Luthor King? There can be no Barack Obama until there is a Martin Luthor King to awaken the conscience of the population and bring about widespread change.
+
Unfortunately Marcus Europe's Martin Luther King was a man called martin luther king, but the americans shot him, (but not all only one or more did)
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If Obama did not take the second oath, there would have been a lawsuite drawn aginst him by the Republican Right. There are still people living who hate FDR and he's been dead for over 60 years.
There are people who hate Obama, not because he is Black, but because he is a man. Manliness is few and far between. Cowardice is easy. We just saw and lived through 8 years of it.
Anybody for closing GITMO besides 96 percent of the American peoples?
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ref #145
The U.S is one of the most progressive nations in the world. And if you look only at the large heavily populated ones way ahead of the curve.
Our leaders never linked Islam with the terrorists.
But unlike Europe we are perceptive enough to recognize the threat of terrorists who use Islam as motivation and a recruting tool.
That is the difference
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"Where is Europe's Martin Luthor King? There can be no Barack Obama until there is a Martin Luthor King to awaken the conscience of the population and bring about widespread change."
I think you're comparing apples and oranges. Slavery was not a European phenomenon. The lack of recognition of minority groups is a potential problem, but it pales in comparison to human bondage.
"Why must the POTUS have been born in America?"
Because the founding fathers realized that at the time of the writing of the Constitution it was possible for a foreign power (notably England) to overwhelm the American population and then vote to put one of their own in power. You give the modern understanding, but that's not the original purpose.
As far as the EU and NATO are concerned, both are supported by the U.S. as a means to stabilize, secure and strengthen our very best allies. The U.S. is interested in a strong and actively engaged Europe. French help with the Russians has been particularly helpful for instance.
Europe is in no danger of losing U.S. support (and visa versa, I would guess). After all, we were the ones who headed off on our own, not Europe.
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"Our leaders never linked Islam with the terrorists."
Agreed, but that doesn't alter the fact that large segments of our population do.
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Ref 149 timohio
Of course we would need some other American icons to complete the image.
Say---the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders shaking their pompoms and high kicking around the stack of bibles; echoing the lines as spoken, while High School Marching Bands blare a stanza of Hail To The Chief between lines? Then, of course, the cherry picker operator would be dressed as George Washington; and the 'Mon Back guy as Teddy Roosevelt in full "Rough Rider" uniform to demonstrate the continuity to the line of Presidents.
Ain't that America!?
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"But unlike Europe we are perceptive enough to recognize the threat of terrorists who use Islam as motivation and a recruting tool."
Of course they do. Remember the London and Madrid bombings? Just because they don't agree with our tactics, doesn't mean they don't recognize the danger.
Europeans are far more vulnerable to Islamic extremism than we are. They have significant populations of disaffected Muslims who are not well integrated into society.
It would be wise to keep that in mind as we move towards a resolution to our current troubles. They have more skin in the game.
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An oath (from Anglo-Saxon að, also called plight) is either a promise or a statement of fact calling upon something or someone that the oath maker considers sacred, usually God, as a witness to the binding nature of the promise or the truth of the statement of fact. To swear is to take an oath.
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Ref. 153
The Constitution is the law of the land, yes, but it is interpreted by the Supreme Court (and there's no avenue of appeal of what they decide the document means). In this way the archaic parts of the document are made contemporary. Lawyers can suggest interpretations, but the Court has the final say. They are in effect the living Constitution.
BTW, while Franklin was indeed a slave owner (he had two), he eventually became a strong abolitionist.
The founding fathers were certainly interested in creating a democracy. There's really no question about it.
The 2nd amendment is a problem because it's the only amendment which gives a reason for its existence. The debate is whether the reason for the amendment represents a restriction on its breadth. The Supreme Court long ago decided that the last clause ('the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed") is the operative part of the amendment, much to the chagrin of gun control advocates.
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I have been reading the comments in this blog with great interest, not only because of the subject matter, but because the focus of so many people on esoteric themes must mean the calamities that surround can not be real. Should I assume that the collapse of our financial and industrial systems is a chimera, that the record number of bankruptcies and foreclosures must be a figment of my imagination, that the devastating drop in real estate properties is just fiction, the layoffs and huge losses announced by American icons like MICROSOFT and General Electric must be a media ploy to sell papers and air time, and the incredible shifts in political direction announced the past couple of days never actually happened.
Millions of people are losing their jobs and houses worldwide, the industries upon which we depend for sustenance are on the verge of collapse, essential services such as healthcare and education are being reduced because of budgetary constraints, and millions of people continue to be affected by foreign policies that do not respect the sovereignty of other nations or the right of other people to choose what is best for them.
No wonder people remain fixated on Holy books, or whose God is best and whose country or culture is best of all. What is going to be next, a discussion on Batman's adventures?
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#164, Batman will save us.
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"What is going to be next, a discussion on Batman's adventures?"
Speaking as a Batman aficionado, I would be delighted. (Oh, that bat suit!) Although with so many businesses tanking, Bruce may have a hard time with the upkeep on the bat cave and 'all those wonderful toys'.
I'm betting that the ship of state will be harder to turn from the brink of disaster than we hope and that - as Obama correctly said - it's going to get worse before it gets better. The "right" seems to have been working on a scorched earth policy: Take what you want and destroy everything the other side needs.
I'm amazed that anyone with as much sense as our new president has would sacrifice his peace of mind and his life (possibly literally) - to take on the horrendous job before him. And with so many people saying, as Rush did, "I hope he fails."
There's a nasty old man down the road from me who has a large, violent anti-Obama sign in his yard, complete with racially-offensive caricature. It's depressing how many people would sooner have the country die than have Obama succeed.
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re. 153. Belmons:
Excuse me, but do you actually know anything about the United States, its history, or its government? It doesn't sound like it.
Yes, Americans are proud of their country (most of the time) and its constitution. Most citizens of most countries are proud of their countries. Unlike many countries, however, the United States is not based on territory or ethnicity, but on the concepts embedded in the constitution. That's why federal officials swear an oath to it rather to a ruler or a vague concept of country. Without the constitution, we wouldn't be Americans. It makes us who we are, and no matter what our ethnicity or national origins, it binds us together.
It might be "crazy to think that a document written so long ago can be some kind of infallible- almost holy - guide for the present day" if that document were, in fact, written long ago and never changed. But the constitution has been continually modified ever since it was first ratified. The first ten amendments, the so-called Bill of Rights, were adopted shortly after ratification, and the most recent was adopted in 1992. It was always intended to be a living document, not tablets handed down on Mount Sinai.
It was not the legislature of Georgia that decided that the right to bear arms was not limited to militias, it was the Supreme Court. Their rulings are legally binding until the court issues a new ruling or the Congress passes a law that supersedes their ruling. That has happened many times and eventually it will happen with the right to bear arms ruling.
As for the founders "excluding ordinary people as far as possible from the process of running the country," the structure of the government as laid out in the constitution is designed to balance competing interests, not to exclude any one group. When ordinary people gather and vote in sufficient numbers, things get changed. Look what happened in the last election. I've been involved in local elections, and if I had the time I could have been involved in this recent federal one. I'm certainly not excluded.
As for lawyers twisting written documents any way they want, lawyers always twist things any way they want, written constitution or not. That's what they get paid to do. At least with a written constitution there is some check against things getting absurdly twisted. The UK does write its laws down somewhere, doesn't it? It doesn't rely on the queen's memory or something? The whole concept of written laws and written constitutions has a long history going back through the Magna Carta and the Roman ten tables to the Code of Hammurabi. It is intended as a safeguard against capricious actions by tyrants.
As for Franklin, yes, he did at one point own two slaves. But did you know that after he returned from France in 1785 he joined and eventually became president of an abolitionist group dedicated to eliminating slavery? The founders were often contradictory men, but most of them did attempt to move beyond the customs of their day to a more perfect society. And they were all strong believers in the ability of humans to govern themselves through reason and consensus.
Really, you are just as vituperative and just as ill-informed as Marcus. Read up a little bit before you spout off. Wikipedia is only a few keystrokes away.
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re. 158. AndyPost:
Andy, I'm sorry. I usually find your posts quite sensible and enlightening, but "slavery was not a European phenomenon?" Where do think it came from? Americans didn't invent it. They brought it with them from Europe. It existed in Europe at the time of the American Revolution. It wasn't abolished in France until 1794.
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#56
Sorted.
Never heard of Michael Newdow.
Maybe you could change TV channel.... read another newspaper, or whatever....
He does sounds awfully like the quaint wee woman from Michigan who followed me around a hotel in Oban this summer.
Two days of being informed the earth was 6000 years old, etc. She really felt sorry for me, and genuinely believed she could help me live the good life, entirely uninvited.
Whatever.
Even when I sat in a cloud of midgies for a couple of hours in the evening, she preferred being chewed to bits by the wee monsters than giving up on, sort of, kind of forcing her beliefs of me, hour after hour. She seemed really happy.
I was really polite, I do have to admit, and didn't offer her any scientific advice on how best not to be chewed by our little Scottish terrors.
They seemed well fed and really happy too.
I didn't want to force my logical, scientific principles on a christain tourist/missionary. That would be such a rude way to behave towards such a kind visitor to my country.
I just pointed her off in the direction to that handy little tourist island we have called Iona - one less tourist on our faboulous, very, very ancient Scottish mountains. As she left for the ferry the next morning, she did look really blotchy and swollen, and cheerfully described it as God's will.
Whatever. She was happy and so was I. Sorted.
Point is.... Leave it. Totally. Anyone who cares, will sit in the midges, prattling on - and miss the stunning views of a really beautiful part of the world, of life around you, the mountains, the people.
I quite obviously didn't state a preference for one over the other. Nor do I care what flavour of God people believe. The Greeks had some really good ones. And the Egyptians too.
Most people in the world don't care either. People vote to get things done. People go to church if they think that is where they will be forgiven. Church and government are not the same thing.
Sorted.
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Well said, timohio.
Although I'd fact check Wikipedia.
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Ref 153 belmons
The United States of America is not a democracy, nor has it ever been such. We are a Republic with democratic principles. You should be proud that the men who drew up the Constitution weighed very heavily on the Magna Carta and the system of British law we adopted. I am very happy those men respected much of their origins, and found them just. We had a very successful Mother who taught us.
I think the UK has a very good Constitution. It works for the citizens of the UK, as well as the US Constitution works for us.
History will tell you that the "Colonies" really did not wish to become independent of Britian. There was so very much at risk for the Colonials to part from a great nation. My own family lost lives and a considerable fortune. Parliment and the "Colonies" just could not work out an acceptable compromise for representative government in the "Colonies". (It is ironic that I picture Old King George having the same self-serving kind of advisors our most recent King George the Younger had on his staff)
As for our "right to bear arms". It came in real handy that our people held arms and knew how to use them when faced against the most powerful Army and Naval forces in the world; now known as the UK. The "Red Coats and Jack Tars" were a fearsome sight as well as great warriors.
The men who framed the US Constitution recognized how helpful it was to our cause for independence when armed citizens filled up gaps in the line of battle so our Army and Navy could face an awesome, powerful foe. They decided to let us citizens keep our powder handy and dry for the next time the citizen was needed against any enemy. Even if it means we pick a few of each other off from time to time.
I remember reading about the UK wishing they had more than fowling pieces and old halberds to stand against the growing threat of a German invasion in the not too distant past.
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re. 164. saintDominick:
Frivolous pastimes always are popular during recessions. It's a way of escaping.
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re. 170. nessie1945:
You have a point there. I've had a decent education and usually use it to check things I vaguely remember from a class long ago.
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Gary (133),
Round here it's used for cattle, and the recently re-promoted Ken Clarke, MP is known as "the Beast"...Thanks for that. A fair assessment.
Andy,
StDom, Actually, the properties ain't dropping, just their overblown valuations...but I get your drift. Such activity as this is called displacement or sometimes denial..
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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Tim (167),
Well said. Seconded.
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Ref 166, Nessie
"There's a nasty old man down the road from me who has a large, violent anti-Obama sign in his yard, complete with racially-offensive caricature. It's depressing how many people would sooner have the country die than have Obama succeed."
I have an identical situation in my neighborhood and, not surprisingly, it also involves elderly persons. Their hatred is not influenced by policies or actions, but by pure unadulterated racism. Fortunately, that mindset is not as evident among the young, which augurs a better and brighter future for our society and our country.
Regarding Rush Limbaugh's comment, I wonder if he understands that if our President's efforts fail we fail as well...does he care? Considering the magnitude of the problems afflicting our country, and our capitalist system, I think it is truly amazing that there are still people who listen and support fanatics like Rush.
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Well for one you do need a bible so you can be president! u should always follow GOD's word even if you are the dirtiest begger on the streets, or the president! they are no different! but the bible does say you shouldnt swear on the HOLY WORD! God created all men equal and ALL men need GOD!
I love you GOD, JESUS and the HOLY SPIRIT
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AndyPost, as an apologist for Europe, your arguments are weak. As a defender of America, you are even weaker. Remind me never to hire you for my lawyer
The Supreme Court can be overruled by a Constitutional Amendment. It can also reverse itself in rulings at a later time, ie separate cannot be equal.
The second amendment is not a problem except for those who would disarm the population leaving it at the mercy of the government and armed criminals the way it is in other parts of the world.
Advocating the violent overthrow of the United States Government is illegal in America. A political party based on this philosophy is a criminal threat to democracy and its adherents are subject to imprisonment. That is why the American Communist Party distanced itself from this aspect of Marxism Leninism.
Slavery was not a European phenomena? Who do you think brought them over here, elves? Who do you think created the cotton economy of the southern states that depended on slave labor? Who made the profits from the slave/rum/cotton triangle that included Africa, the Carribean, and the American colonies run from Europe? BTW, even after slavery was made illegal in Britain, slave trade was still legal for Brits for decades afterwards.
Tell me one thing Europe or NATO has ever done for America. Europe has already lost American support, if not by the American government then by the American people who have largely written it off. But even Obama has put Europe on notice that if it wants to maintain any kind of relationship with the American government at all, it will have to change its tune drastically. I'm not just talking about the words it sings but the steps it dances as well.
The French helped us with the Russians? Don't make me laugh. We don't have any real problems with the Russians. They didn't turn our gas off. And they can't shut our oil off. They can't stop our missiles and radar from being installed in Poland and the Czech Republic. The French tried to help Georgia just the way we did. Is that the "help" you're talking about? I didn't notice Russia pulling out of South Ossetia or Abkhazia. Wasn't any more than the usual useless talk from France. There isn't one less Russian missile aimed at the US now than before France "helped" us. So of what use are they?
America doesn't need Europe and I don't think we could help them at this point if we wanted to. For my part, I'd be just as happy to walk away. The Taleban and al Qaeda are much closer to them than they are to us.
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Whether it is a Bible, K.Marx Manifesto, Koran, or an empty space[in between] - who really cares?
The man, his intentions, his abilities, his decency - that's what counts.
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timohio, Europeans don't even know what a constitution is. Just look at the pathetic excuse for one they invented. 400 pages of incomprehensible legalese which when you plow through it is a cradle to grave prescription for a vast Gulag superstate. A soviet nightmare equal to the USSR. This reflects their view of life, that every aspect of every life must be "governed" to conform to a single view of society. No room for deviation let alone dissent. Just look at the reaction to a lighthearted piece of art called Entropa by the Czech artist Cerney. You can read about it on Mark Mardell's BBC blog. When they couldn't get that Constitution passed, they added about 8000 words to it, decreased the size of the typeface, decreased the line spacing, and claimed it had been shortened by a hundred pages or so. They renamed it the Lisbon Treaty which they will surely jam down every European throat in one guise or another under one name or another in the next few years. Most of the people who voted for it and the Constitution both in national assemblies in countries that did not allow a public referendum on it or where there was a public referendum admitted they'd never read it. How could they, you'd have to be a lawyer to understand it.
Now compare that monstrousity with our own Constitution, one of the greatest documents ever written. In simple plain easy to understand language just a few pages long, the precise meaning of the words based on their explicit denotation, the meaning of the words at the time they were written, and the historical context of the circumstances and people who wrote it and what was going through their minds as they penned and signed it has been the subject of endless debate for over 200 years. Imagine how legal scholars would struggle to interpret the European Constitution if it ever gets passed. Obfuscation is one powerful tool to steal freedom from people by making it impossible to even understand the laws let alone give them the right to reject it in a public debate and vote. That is Europe's culture.
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I hate semantics
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I hate Marcux but everybody knoes that
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Ref 176 saintDominick
I sometimes share your amazement in the support the "Rushheads" pay to their leader. It seems to me that they should realize the man is an admitted drug addict and drug addicts are not reliable people in which to put ones faith.
Those of my friends, co-workers, and acquaintances who hang upon his words as if he were a god tend to be those same people who shot spit-wads at the teacher and shook-down little kids for their lunch money while in high school.
Ever since leaving school they have found a life of tough breaks and hard knocks because they do not know how to be curious, nor have the tools to reason which they would have learned from the educators they enjoyed tormenting. Now they are bitter at the world because they failed to be educated.
Rush is no more than the bully boy who is still shooting spit-wads at the world and gathers those who are ashamed of their own impunity to him because, like the children they still are, his antics seem clever and "so cool".
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#178
If a Scot was not raped then murdered by the invading Vikings, they were taken off, by force to Constantinople and sold as slaves.
We have this really cool, well educated bunch of historians and archaeologists over here.
Just thought I'd mention it so you wouldn't think world history began just as the Europeans arrived on the shores of New England - or maybe when Eric the Red....
Marcus, why are you on this blog? Are you OK? You do seem a little stressed. Or do you really not like us Brits.....
It's Burns' night so maybe you would feel better after some totties, haggis and neeps, Tam O Shanter, a couple of halfs and a wee Ceilidh.
It is Friday. Go on, be kind to yourself with a wee twirl. You will feel a whole lot better.
Promise.
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"I hate semantics"
Eeek! He's anti-semantic!
(I'm so sorry, kikiread, I just couldn't resist.)
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183:
I have to associate with Rush-fans (rarely, thank goodness) since I've had to start working again, and know that two of the six that I know have an excuse.
Although 20 years apart in age, both have been substance abusers since their early teens and one has multiple addictions and a conviction for bank robbery. I don't know the other fellows as well, but think these two may be representative of a pretty fair number of the breed. Many folks to the far right distrust intelligence and education and are therefore easy prey for manipulators.
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#180
Marcus,
Magna Carta isn't that long. They couldn't find the qualified staff.
Jesuit Sam
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#183
Salvete Publius!
You give Rush too much credit. The short fat kid with an addiction and anger management problem who never really rose to bullying someone face to face. More aspiring to bully someone if he ever gathered the courage. But wrote a really nasty diary.
Poor sad little man whose hero could not deliver. I'm reminded of someone. Pince Nez, black clothes. The name will come to me in time.
Confused Sam
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actually semantics is good (as my man noam chmosky says because he specialises in it)
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Did I miss something? I've been unavoidably detained away from this site for several weeks, and, well, everything is a bit... odd.
Perhaps I've warped into a parallel dimension, but didn't MAII originally claim to be a Brit, w. military expertise from previous service in an artillery unit? And now, as rabidly paranoid a European-bashing American as this site hosts?
Or have I confused him with another rabidly paranoid?
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#182
Kiki,
Hate is an emotion that simply isn't worth the effort.
Many folks never meet their potential, or do but can not reconcile it with what others can achieve.
They turn in, or lash out. They hide in 'loyalty' to an individual, or cause. Perhaps a political thread. The weakest hide in nationalism (a poor partner to patriotism), the most pathetic in racism.
But to hate is to consume yourself. And to do that helps those poor folks validate themselves.
Please don't hate. They deserve our pity.
Sad Sam
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191. At 03:05am on 24 Jan 2009, SamTyler1969 : #182
sam don't worry yourself marcus is marcus one of a kind who should be respected for being our elder with so much wisdom. I was just engaging his name in a friendly joking manner because I know you all like him too.
keek da sneak
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re: 190 Via Or have I confused him with another rabidly paranoid?
Spork and Spam, who can tell the difference?
Cheers,
Pinko
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One point that might've been missed in the debate (or non-debate) over the oath of office: the original intent of an oath in the American political setting might have been legal. Until fairly recently, those who broke the terms of their oath could be charged for breach of trust if they knowingly violated the terms of their office. Violating the Public Trust is still grounds for dismissal or prosecution for Federal civil servants, who as was aptly pointed out much earlier, also swear oaths.
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I can't resist... the description of modern Europe as being under "tyranny" is about as absurd as those on the far American Left describing the former President as a despot. To save me from being pilloried by both sides, I can only say that while Mr. Bush's actions, like some actions in the EU and other democratic states, could be undemocratic, but left alone I think they are only isolated incidents, and not patterns or trends away from freedom into tyranny. Bush's repudiation pretty much put paid to ideas of an imperial presidency, for now...
As to freedom, some words of wisdom:
"At the city gates and by your fireside I have seen you prostrate yourself and worship your own freedom...
I have seen the freest among you wear your freedom as a yoke and a handcuff.
...you can only be free when even the desire of seeking freedom becomes a harness to you, and when you cease to speak of freedom as a goal and a fulfillment."
-Gibran
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Ref 188 SamTyler1969
Thank you Sam. I am well and in good health.
I defer to you, kind lady. It appears you have a better handle on Rush than I.
I was only guessing at his profile.
Dark clothes? Pince Nez? Sounds like a character from a 007 movie.
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190. Via-Media wrote:
Did I miss something? I've been unavoidably detained away from this site for several weeks, and, well, everything is a bit... odd.
Perhaps I've warped into a parallel dimension, but didn't MAII originally claim to be a Brit, w. military expertise from previous service in an artillery unit? And now, as rabidly paranoid a European-bashing American as this site hosts?
Or have I confused him with another rabidly paranoid?
No there was another one, but they did seem to have striking similarities.
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#152, MAII, Your views here show a combination of entirely missing the point of the BBC, and a certain amount of jealousy.
BBC commercial activities in overseas countries have been debated elsewhere, from memory that was (another) argument you lost. In essence, I believe they have to act as a company with separate budgets etc in these situations. Are you telling me that your commercial stations wouldn't have sued them by now if that wasn't the case?
As a service to the UK though, the whole point is that the BBC IS publicly funded rather than via commercial means. This is supposed to ensure independece, even from our own government.
Some people disagree with this means of funding and would scrap the license fee - I'm not of that opinion, although some of the commercial stations do a reasonable job when it comes to news reporting, in other areas they produce, or import total dross.
I guess in conclusion: Your perceived "unfair advantage" is irrelevant, like saying the US military has an unfair advantage because of all your tax dollars -it's a meaningless comment, you either spend more or shut up.
I hope that Britain continues to fund a high class organisation like the BBC, b*llox if you think that's unfair, I think your jealous.
Not Sam.
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crosseyes,
I'm not in the slightest jealous of BBC. I don't like the idea of a publicly owned broadcast network. I never support PBS or NPR. Were it up to me, they'd lose all government funding. If they disappeared that would be fine with me.
I didn't lose any debate about BBC. You can try to pretend that one division of BBC is separate from another but in the end it's one big pot of money sucked from the license fee payers...and American taxpayers. It does't matter to me what Brits do with their money but don't come pretending to me that BBC is on an equal playing field with the rest of British media and expect me to swallow it. The playing field is clearly tilted steeply in BBC's favor. If BBC had to survive as a commercial enterprise, it would either have to change quickly and drastically or go broke IMO.
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"The Supreme Court can be overruled by a Constitutional Amendment. It can also reverse itself in rulings at a later time, ie separate cannot be equal."
Irrelevant. I said you couldn't appeal a Supreme Court decision, and you can't. Try arguing the point.
"The second amendment is not a problem except for those who would disarm the population leaving it at the mercy of the government and armed criminals the way it is in other parts of the world."
Uh-huh. So, you think you can take on a Marine battalion supported by armor, artillery, and aircraft with a handgun?
Paragraph 4 is baffling. What in God's name are you talking about?
Paragraph 5: The "peculiar institution" is completely and utterly American. The crown didn't stop it, no, but not for lack of effort. Americans ran the triangle. We made all the money. J.P. Morgan Chase sold slave insurance. Stop blaming others for our crimes.
Paragraph 6: Oh, and NATO won the cold war, not just the U.S. I know, that's a minor thing. Hardly worth mentioning. But there's also Bosnia. The first Gulf War. Afghanistan.
Oh, please, tell all about how Obama has put Europe on notice. I would find it entertaining.
On second thought, don't. I'm not reading any more of your posts.
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Ref. 168
No need to apologize. Colonial America was set up and supplied by English shipping, and it was indeed England who pioneered the slave triangle (created by no less than Sir Francis Drake) and made a tidy profit from the West Indies slave trade. England also had villeins up until the 17th century.
Point taken.
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Ref 198 paulcrossleyiii
Tell you what. I'll trade you your BBC for an half dozen of our local television news broadcasts. Our local broadcasts are populated by highly-opinionated talking airheads. Every item reported gets an inane round of commentary by the far-too-many news readers at the anchor desk.
I once fell out of my chair laughing when a cousin of mine manning the anchor desk of a local news station added his oh-my-gosh-I-could-never-do-that-it's-so-horrible!! commentary regarding a racially charged incident just reported. I could not get the image of him telling some of our family only a few weeks earlier how glad he was getting a promotion to the anchor desk so he would not have to go into the "smelly, dirty homes of the (word that sounds like the five-letter name of an African nation without the long i)" to conduct on the scene interviews. An amazing transformation from bigot to humanitarian!
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Ref 200 AndyPost
I must disagree with you when you state:
The Iraqi militants, Afghan rebels, and the Viet Cong armed with little more than small arms have created countless hot, deadly moments for our Marines and Army. Don't forget the Sioux and Cheyene warriors armed only with bows and arrows and a few rifles firing re-loaded cartridges of dubious quality, and their defeat of the 7th Cavalry at the Little Big Horn.
Never under-estimate the will of a determined warrior people. Even your own thumb is a lethal weapon when you hate your enemy and are willing to risk death for your tribe or your cause.
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#202 NO TRADE!
But don't worry, the local news is pretty similar here in Australia, so you're not alone. They however do have two publicly funded channels (along the lines of the BBC) that do a much better job.
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#199. Marcus, of course the BBC's not on a 'level' playing field when it comes to it's rivals in Britain.
On the one hand it gets funded by the tax payer, on the other it has to fund public service broadcasting and uphold standards. For these reasons, the BBC would DEFINITELY not survive as a commercial enterprise in the UK - in it's current form, which is a form that most people are in favour of.
In the USA this situation is somewhat different. As I understand it, the commercial activities of Beeb are strictly separate. I say again, if this weren't the case, would it's commercial rivals not be prosecuting it?(maybe they are, I'll let you check as it's your personal hobby horse).
So you don't support public service broadcasting in principle. Fair enough. Two obvious points come out of that one though
- if you don't support it, why do you watch it (I've lost track of the amount of times you've told us about the high quality of US PBS).
- Secondly, stop whining on about how it's unfair that the BBC exists. This is something that is the choice of the UK and it's government and citizens, it's nothing to do with you. That a lot of non-contributing people benefit from it's services (I'm thinking the BBC website, World Service etc) is something you also fail to mention.
ps, please explain why you sometimes call me crosseyes, but other times don't. My eyes incidentally are pretty consistent in their directionality.
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#199. MarcusAureliusII: "You can try to pretend that one division of BBC is separate from another but in the end it's one big pot of money sucked from the license fee payers...and American taxpayers."
Anyone would think that the only income the BBC receives from beyond its shores is that from the USA. In fact BBC programming is seen and licensed in over seventy different nations, so that's hardly a money sucked from American tax payers.
"If BBC had to survive as a commercial enterprise, it would either have to change quickly and drastically or go broke IMO."
That's the whole point of the BBC - it's a service rather than a commercial enterprise. Like many services, it wasn't designed to make a profit but to provide news and varied entertainment to a wide segment of the population.
Voice of America is a service entirely funded by the United States Government and yet you raise no objections to that - a cost of around $195 million
"sucked from American taxpayers" each year. You might also consider the services provided by Al-Hurra and Radio Sawa which since 2004 have cost the US taxpayer approximately $500 million. I suggest that you be more concerned about how your own country spends its money rather than criticising Britain and the BBC for its expenditures.
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First, as a religious American, who belives in the separation of church and state, it makes no difference to me if he swears in on a Bible, Qur'an, an issue of Archie Comics, or simply gives his word. What I find distasteful is that he would use a Bible in his inauguration as no more than a prop...mere political tomfoolery to trick (or appeal) to the religious factions, and not because it is based on his own beliefs or faith. And it's not the use of the bible itself that bothers me... it's the disingenuous behavior that bothers me.
Obviously, if he did not use a Bible in his 'private' swearing in, it was not of any meaningful significance to him at all... no problem there. That he did use it publicly, then makes it mere politics. I expected better from the man.
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205. paulcrossleyiii:
I think the Beeb ought to invoice that stout upholder of free enterprise for the cost of the extra server they've had to install to hold his voluminous rants.
Why should we pay for them?
And yes, BBC Worldwide is separate and commercial and exists so that the BBC's huge numbers of TV programmes and music recordings can be bought, watched and listened to even by ungrateful sods like that one.
MAII won't pay any attention to this at all, but the BBC actually contributes to the US as a taxpayer:
"The total tax charge for the period was £34.4m (2006/07 £23.6m). The effective tax rate of 31% (2006/07 21%) is slightly higher than the statutory rate of UK corporation tax that is provided at 30% (2006/07 30%) largely because of the increasing proportion of profit taxed under overseas jurisdictions. . . in which the Group operates (principally the UK, US and Australia)"
[BBC Worldwide financial report.]
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On second thought, and another subject... why are you apologizing for 'going on about religiosity? As if the subject were either taboo, unworthy, or overused. The 'religiosity' was relevant to the story, the story is relevant to the President's inauguration, and while the religious aspect of it may be a simple aside, the motivations behind it's use or non-use, speaks volumes.
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209. Finntann wrote:
"On second thought, and another subject... why are you apologizing for 'going on about religiosity?' "
If you mean Justin, he was apologising to us Brits, I think, who, as you might gather from here, by and large can't really be . . . (oops, 'ware moderators!). . .bothered much about it.
Storms in teacups. (Am. Eng: hurricanes in lattes?)
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Mr / Mrs british-ish
as an expert in britishness could you clarify and confirm whether any tribal/one actually really worshipped beer as part of their ancient religions / urban myths?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
British-ish
MAII doesn't like facts, or reason or anything that can't be brushed aside with 25 paragraphs of tedium (i'll finish a full post of his one of these days).
He is damn entertaining though.
And magickirin of course (are they the same person?)
"Just a note to those who think everyone in Gitmo is innocent." we are not naive, but usually a little gathering of a few people, commonly referred to as "a trial" tends to sort the guilty from the innocent. When you use torture it's not surprising that everyone confesses.
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Justin,
It does not take much for a sly old fox like you to pull the wool over the eyes of this cave-dweller, so I re-read the above,and am interested to learn about buying bibles at CVS -The American "Boots" The Chemist.
Perhaps your line -" Even if they had had to send out to CVS (Boots!). ", was referring to headache pills, plasters to stem the wounds opened by in house or cross party deliberation battles, even specific cosmetic products for all black, white, Asian and associated members of Obama's team with their future appearances under the media spotlight.
Googling CVS shows an American giant with a product range including the sale of cameras and cam-corders, pharmaceuticals etc extending into administrative fringe medical administration services, with medical and beauty personnel to hand, all the usual products, but of bibles there is no mention.
Is the USA health service so bad that this extra-terrestrial handbook is sold as a requirement for Christian self healing your side of the water, or were you trying to slip a suggestion in on this "sensible thread" about CVS's herbal tea products?
Should the sale of bibles at a drug store be correct, and USA Heath Care so bad, then I must assume sick Jewish Americans will be self-prescribing their usual penicillin at CVS, [tinned chicken soup] complete with the under or over the counter Torah as well.
Obviously, it goes without saying that all belief reading material will be sold in the state required compulsory brown paper bag to avoid embarrassments.
America again leads the way.
The world has about 40 religious beliefs, and we Europeans are lagging far behind Americas thoughts and deeds in trying to stimulate business sales advancement everywhere possible.
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Ref 214
"...we Europeans are lagging far behind Americas thoughts and deeds in trying to stimulate business sales advancement everywhere possible."
A casual visit to any Mall in the USA will quickly reveal that one of the few
prosperous business that seem impervious to the worst recession since the Great Depression are Christian Bookstores. Careers in the divinity field are also very profitable and don't seem to be affected by concepts such as throwing merchants out of temples...
Unfortunately for you guys I don't think this line of business will flourish in the Old Continent. Judging by what I saw the last time I visited Europe you may be better off investing in thongs, preferably with no strings attached!
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Forbidden territory (according to some fools (bigots?) in the upper reaches of the BBC).
Peace to all
ed
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#168
Didn't the Egyptians have their slaves before us Europeans (to bring us, awkwardly back to religion)? Not that that puts any of us the moral highground.
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A lot of Americans have forgotten that the influence of Deist thinking among our founding Fathers has a lot to do with the freedom of religion they enjoy today.
As a "Modern Deist", which is different than the Classical form extant at the time of the founding of the US, I am often accused of being an atheist.
Nothing could be farther from the truth.
I, like all other Deist's, believe in God. The main distinction is the fact that most of us don't believe that "which" Religion you follow makes the slightest bit of difference.
Using our God-given Reason, instead of relying on "Revelations" that are thousands of years old, tells us that God has to exist. Few Deist's share the "Fear" of God that is promoted by the Abrahamic faiths, but that certainly doesn't make us Atheist's.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Ref 217
Slavery has existed since the earliest days of civilization and it was practiced by almost every civilization in the world. It is also important to note that Africans were not the only victims of that despicable practice. When it comes to the colonization of the Americas, slavery was an integral part of that effort and it was carried out, condoned, or intentionally overlooked by government officials, even after it was banned. The Portuguese are often credited for having perfected that trade to the point of making it almost a science. In addition to being very selective in choosing their victims by age, gender, and physical strength, they also established procedures and ship accomodations to minimize transportation losses.
Sadly, slavery is not yet a thing of the past, and it still exists in some forms in many parts of the world.
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Every conquering army since the beginning of war has had slaves. It was not the invention of any one country. It is also a recent thing, there are still slaves in the world.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
What is behind this act? Why does this traditional Bible symbol bother Obama, and what does it say? There is good religion and bad, certainly in the British tradition, those of us in the UK and USA have seen both. The use of the Bible in this act is as much for citizens as it is for a new office holder. Finally, some may be cheering this act as individualism, but what's next to go...it may be something you value highly, like your own freedom.
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slavery, we are living in slavery,
slavery, we know our duration,
slavery, we know we are strong,
we know where we are heading
http://ambassada.podOmatic.com/entry/eg/2007-02-13T11_52_40-08_00
Jah Shaka - Dub Sound System Session
(oldies but goodies)
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Blessed saintDominick # 215, wrote
"Judging by what I saw the last time I visited Europe you may be better off investing in thongs, preferably with no strings attached!"
For a monk like yourself I am taking this as a great compliment.
We can all "walk" on water this side of the channel.
Our planes that stay afloat.
Our sea defences that hold true despite inclement weather.
Water conditioning that produces real beers and exquisite whiskeys.
Any help needed, pray hard tonight. We will be listening.
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The message I get is that it is off topic to discuss an item which was part of the main news on all channels, to wit: The Disasters Emergency Committee, which consists of: Action Aid, British Red Cross, CAFOD, CARE International UK, Christian Aid, Concern Worldwide, Help the Aged, Islamic Relief, Merlin, Oxfam, Save the Children, Tearfund, World Vision, and the BBC's decision not to give publicity to their attempts to raise funds to aid suffering folk in Gaza
GRRRRRR!
Hint: Search engines exist
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I cracked it! - the US global bankers were all CIA Operatives - Book 'em Danno
My favourite show is
Hawaii Five-O
Me don't take peoples thing
and talk about war (whore)
Billy Boyo On Go
Love Reggae Music
More than Disco
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In reference to #224
"What is behind this act?"
Among other factors, I imagine generation gap has much to do with it. As a memeber of Generation "X", I know that many people in my generation have stepped away from the traditional values of our preceding generations.
As each generation becomes better educated than the last, and seeing the advancement of science and what it can, and has done for us. Many are moving away from long established Religious traditions.
My area (Missouri), for example, is smack in the middle of the Bible-Belt. For the last decade or so, the proliferation of Non-Denominal Churches has amazed me. They are mostly founded by people from the older side of Generation "X", and aren't just simple meeting places.
I work in the HVAC industry, and a few years ago, I participated in the construction of a $5.5 million Non-Denominational Church. With investments like that, its pretty obvious that America is at least "beginning" to move away from the Religious intolerance of the earlier generations.
For those of you that would bring up a loss of "Spirituality" as a result of this, you couldn't be farther from the truth.
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rwbennett
"The use of the Bible in this act is as much for citizens as it is for a new office holder. Finally, some may be cheering this act as individualism, but what's next to go...it may be something you value highly, like your own freedom."
have some perspective please! Firstly, and here is the rub the bible is an insignificant book for many people in america, as such if is unfair and unconstitutional to force these beliefs and morals on the entire country, if i was ever to swear an oath in court for example i wouldnt to it on a bible or utter so help me god.
secondly if GWB and the Patriot act didn't remove the individual freedoms of the American people then there is very little that Obama can do to top that disgusting piece of "law"
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Jeez Ed 0 for 3!!!
Thats not like you!
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re 228
sorry wrong site
(I had my Business Analyst Hat on)
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RWBennett,
Where is there any indication that it "bothers" Obama?Complain about this comment
RWB (224), Use your head. If it "bothered" Obama, why did he go to the effort of using the Lincoln Bible the first time?
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ref #161
If Europe does understand the threat.. Whydo so many side with terrorists against Israel.
Why not show solidarity with them?
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Ed
I was just reading about the BBC refusing to offend the most offensive(attacking) nation in the world for the last 60 years.
Huge suffering, at a time when this blog concerning america should recognise the one sidedness has been and will be in favour of Isreal and that AMerica is as much a player as anyone. That america funds this slaughter.
OK take it away from Israel.
make the blog should Americans be taxed in order to sow chaos in the world and murder babies.
Until they ONCE allow the world to truly see the suffering of the innocents in Gaza the BBC will still be playing the role America has deemed fit for it.
The fact that this blog never has touched Officially on the link between the two countries is probably because we will bring it up on our own. But it could also be seen as supporting the side of the terrorist state of Israel and their backers.
After all in every report they mention"the rockets" though like I pointed out earlier more people die in traffic accidents in Israel per month than by rockets in 8 years.
This decision by the BBC is appaling and just because the SKYFOX network removed their coverage.(no kidding who woulda thunk it)
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224. At 1:25pm on 24 Jan 2009, rwbennett wrote:
What is behind this act? Why does this traditional Bible symbol bother Obama, and what does it say? There is good religion and bad, certainly in the British tradition, those of us in the UK and USA have seen both. The use of the Bible in this act is as much for citizens as it is for a new office holder. Finally, some may be cheering this act as individualism, but what's next to go...it may be something you value highly, like your own freedom
---------------------------------------------------
that went when the small minded fart that now lives in texas again.
Bennet it's a new world why not open your eyes and see it.
Or quit
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I wish he had sworn on an antichrist bible just to shut ya'll up.
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kirin.
Not Israel.
Not again, not after the past week. Have you no shame? or basic human compassion.
When iIsrael stops bombing and killing innocent women and children maybe their support level will ncrease.
no i know what you will say, palestine kills plenty of women and children but they are run by a terrorist group and as such Israel being a modern sophisticated democracy shoud act better.
Again (and again, and agine with you) we are not anti-israel nor pro palestinian. We just do not approve of the bully methods of Israel any more than we do of the suicide bomber methods of Hamas. Try sitting down and talking, if it worked in Northern Ireland i believe it can work anywhere!
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235
Gherkin.
Israel are the terrorists.
Simple. few in the world would doubt it now.
Bombing UN with banned weapons etc. killing indiscriminately.
234 ED he doesn't have one.
If he does it is consumed with hatred for all other than his own race ,whatever that is.
Certainly not EARTHLING
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Ed,
Read your Blethering with Brian, or was it Blethering with Brain in neutral yesterday.
My apologies for jumping in unasked and directing Ms Noman to your link on another thread here, but you seemed to have your hands full with other technical happenings.
Am pleased the GRRRRRR! worked out okay after your frustrations of today and being "bold, strong and descriptive" yesterday.
You have become a marked man, so to stay on topic, may I say at least I am not cross with you.
Will check your suggestions above.
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re 238
Or a little red book!
I wonder which is worse to the neo cons satanism or socialism!
They are probably one and the same to them!
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167 Tim'
It is a joy for me to disagree with you.
About the constitution, great document, updated by people over time.
It's not that great when it delivers the people less rights than people in other nations get without it.
Hopefully Obama will change some of that.
But if he had lost ,and it was pretty close, that same constitution would be used to excuse more bull shit.
How about the bit in the constitution that gives a corporate entity the same legal rights as an individual Human.
Is it there or not.
Legally yes.Courts say so.
I am not sure but am that there was some bull link to the constipation of america.
America will as easily die by that constitution as it lives by it.
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It behooves me to ask if any won reads The Good Book? If so, they will know that an "Oath" is very serious with dire consequences if broken. Hmmmm....
Second, they would also read that "swearing" is against every concept written in the book, yet in the US, we require folks to take an oath (which most break) with their right hand (another Biblical concept) on the Bible (including Torah) and swear. Has always sounded more like an anti-G-d action to me.
Also interesting, I have to hear about the second oath from and out-of-the-country news agency - not unusual, however. Although it may have been reported in US and I missed it, just to be fair in my assessment.
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Ref 226
I hope the awkward joke I made in an earlier post did not send the wrong message!
This "saintly" American loves Europe including its culture, history, geography, traditions, food, wine and beer, even its "mineral" water, and definitely the beautiful scenary I enjoyed on beaches in Spain, even when gravity affected the natural beauty of our imperfect being.
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Ref 235, Magic
I suspect Europeans consider the existance of terrorism an integral part of modern-day life, and perhaps they regard death as an inevitable part of life.
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ref #236,239 240
Sorry to educate you:
But the U.N was sheltering the terrorists just as they did in Lebanon.
No country has shown the restraint Israel has.
The only reason you people call Israel terrorists is because in most of the protesters minds Jews are not equal to others.
There is no concivible reason that there were not protesters during the missle attacks against Israel.
Maybe when Europe has daily bombings these idiots will wake up.
War crime trials for the Palestinians, Lebanese leaders and the U.N conspiritors.
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Justin:
I'm suprised you have posted a blog on the rise and fall of the Socerous of You knows: Caroline Kennedy.
I was traveling in upstate NY this week; and there was nothing but contempt for this spoiled entitled woman who has never worked in her entire life.
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Ref 244, SouthTexas
"Although it may have been reported in US and I missed it, just to be fair in my assessment."
The second, and hopefully final Oath, was announced in our media. Mercifully, there was little emphasis placed on the fact that a Bible was not present during the second go at it, which was focused on getting words in the correct order, rather than replicating a blasphemous act.
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"No country has shown the restraint Israel has."
With that sort of restraint, who needs loosing?
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saintDominick # 245,
No problem. I only hope you accepted my retort in the cameradery teasing mode it was intended to show. [Okay not the beer and other "spirit" part. That was serious]. Throwing disasters at you was uncalled for, but they could be regarded as acts of "Him".
Fortunately, or unfortunately I must take the words of Men of the Silk above Men of the Cloth like yourself, the former subjecting me to worldly punishments when I go wrong.
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"Maybe when Europe has daily bombings these idiots will wake up."
Problem is, Britain has forgotten its History. What Israel has been putting up with for the last 8 years is similar to the "Buzz Bombs" the Nazi's launched at London.
Although there was a full scale War going on at the time, which does make it a different situation; the same random hit/miss factor of the Buzz bombs causes the same psychological factor.
Personally, I wouldn't have put up with it as long as they did. But then again, I'm one of those "Blood Thirsty" Americans, so I'm sure my opinion doesn't count here.
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AndyPost #200
Your posting implied that once the Supreme court hands down a ruling, it's word is final. That is just not true. The appeal is to retry the ruling under another case at a later date when they may choose to hear the constitutional challenge to a law again as in Brown v Board of Education or an appeal directly to the amendment process which an appeal in a wider sense, not the narrow legal sense you cited.
The right of the people to bear arms is explicit. It is the legislatures which has at times sought to restrict citizens from arming themselves though gun control laws. But the American icon of a gun at the ready on the fireplace mantle or next to the fireplace available to defend oneself and one's family from various forms of danger such as wild animals (there are still parts of America where wild animals pose a threat such as mountain lions, wolves, polar and grizzly bears, rattlesnakes and copperheads, and not just in remote areas. There are black bears in suburbs of NYC. I spotted a bear cub in a backyard in Montvale NJ a few years ago) criminals, (in colonial times "injuns" and of course at that time the Hessians and Redcoats who could terrorize an unarmed community, quarter in their homes, steal their provisions. That was the government that needed to be defended against. The right to have a gun for self defense was considered a basic human right in America and still is. BTW, I do not and have never owned a gun and only shot a firearm a few times in my life at carnivals when I was a child. But if I felt I needed one, I don't want anyone telling me I can't have one.
In your post 147
"... For instance, unlike in Europe, the U.S. government cannot ban a political party..."
As I pointed out in my posting, that is not strictly true. A political party which advocates the violent overthrow of the United States govenment is a criminal entity. It is not tolerated.
You've got your dates mixed up. JP Morgan was a late 19th century banking Mogul. The slave trade as it related to America was abolished in the early 19th century, probably before Morgan was even born. Anyway that is not where he made his money although somewhere you might find a oblique reference to something he did that connected to slaves somewhere in the world. Maybe financing the railroads which brought over and exploited inexpensive Chinese labor.
BTW, there is no apparent connection between JP Morgan Bank and Chase until the recent merger.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chase_Manhattan
The US won the cold war, won the war in the Balkins, is doing most of the fighting in Afghanistan. Europe does almost nothing...ever. Most of Western Europe didn't even want to fight the cold war. Maybe you are too young to recall that Europeans were furious when President Reagan placed Pershing II missiles in Europe. It was the ratcheting up of the military arms race under Reagan with SDI, the MX missile, the 600+ ship navy, the Ohio class Trident submarines, the B2 bomber program that turned the cold war from a political and quasi military war into an economic war. Soviet generals wanted similar massive investments in new advanced military hardware. This change to an economic war bankurpted both the US and USSR governments. But in the USSR, the government was the entire economy while in the US it is only 20% of the economy. The inefficient much smaller Soviet economy was crushed, first unable to support its external empire, then unable to even provide for its own people. That is how the cold war ended. Gorbachev tried desperately to strengthen his dead economy by introducing some quasi capitalist reforms (Peristroika) and openness (Glaznost) but hard line Communists revolted in a putch. That spelled the final straw for the Soviet Evil Empire. There is no doubt that the US has done almost all of the heavy lifting in the other wars you mentioned while Europe for the most part (except for the British) sat on its hands. NATO was and remains merely a cover for the use of US military power under political cover of a mutual defense treaty with Europe. But on its own, Europe's defenses are hopelessly weak. They have lots of troops but limited equipment compared to the US and no will to fight. Keep in mind that the GDP of the EU is actually larger than America's but look at the paltry size of their defense budget. As the years go by, the disparity in military strength and capability only increases.
Obama's admonitions to Europe to begin to pull its fair share of the weight have been couched in soft tones but their meaning is clear. Here's some of what he said in Berlin on July 24, 2008;
"Yes, there have been differences between America and Europe. No doubt, there will be differences in the future. But the burdens of global citizenship continue to bind us together. A change of leadership in Washington will not lift this burden. In this new century, Americans and Europeans alike will be required to do more – not less. Partnership and cooperation among nations is not a choice; it is the one way, the only way, to protect our common security and advance our common humanity."
"For the people of Afghanistan, and for our shared security, the work must be done. America cannot do this alone. The Afghan people need our troops and your troops; our support and your support to defeat the Taliban and al Qaeda, to develop their economy, and to help them rebuild their nation. We have too much at stake to turn back now."
There have been other warnings slightly more direct. But when President Obama as opposed to candidate Obama sees Europe's intransagence in the war on terror as I expect he will, his words are sure to become more strident, the warnings clearer and sharper. Except for the British who sometimes try but usually muddle what they undertake (Basra is a case in point) Europe has never demonstrated the will or capacity to make any sacrifice to defend the freedoms Americans won for it more than once with their blood and treasure.
crosseyes, you are so dense you don't even get the pun I made out of your moniker. Your moniker includes the letters cross and the letter "i" three times at the end. I know they say Brits have a dry sense of humor but in your case, I think it has shriveled up and turned to dust.
The US government supports radio and television stations like VOA around the world as part of its policy to influence people in other nations, an aspect of its foreign policy. It makes no pretense that it is not an American government point of view although it tries to be fair. It is also illegal for these broadcasts to be transmitted to Americans in the United States because that would be government directly influencing American politics and competing against private American news organizations, an anathema to our values. It also does not impose directly or indirectly any tax on its audience the way BBC does.
NPR and PBS did set exceptionally high standards in the past, certainly much higher than BBC's now which has been degraded so badly that its news broadcasts often resemble propaganda more than journalism, at least by our standards and those it once adhered to. But PBS and NPR have outlived their usefulness and if they disappeared, the best of what they have to offer would find other outlets such as on the multitudes of cable stations and on the internet. One example of this and the deterioration of PBS was its decision some years ago to cancel the best and longest running program on money and finance that ever appeared on television, Louis Rukeyser's Wall Street Week. Not only did new management cancel it without warning because they felt it wasn't modern enough and didn't appeal to a youth oriented segment of the audience, they kicked the man who literally single handedly saved PBS from bankruptcy a few years earlier by finding major corporate sponsors for them in the teeth. CNBC picked up his show exactly as it had been shown on PBS without commercial interruption at exactly the same time slot and called it Louis Rukeyser's Wall Street. Wall Street Week continued to air on PBS with newcomers from Fortune Magazine but few people watched it and none of the many high powered panelists and guests Rukeyser had routinely would appear on PBS's show any longer. It got so bad for PBS that they were forced to get permission to re-broadcast Rukeyser's new show but only after it had aired on CNBC. (Rukeyser sadly died a few years ago, the result of an automobile accident.) PBS has also degenerated in many other ways such as airing programs like Andre Rieu who it seems to me would never dare allow a microphone anywhere near him when he is "performing" with a 100 piece orchestra to cover up any sound he makes inadvertently getting to another mike.
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ref #250
Lebanon should have been carpeted bombed like the allies did to Germany in WW2.
That is why Israel showed restraint.
It's very easy for you arm chair critics.
But live in Israel shoes where the world finds it acceptible for them to be attacked by terrorists.
Time for reperations for Israel from the Arab states.
And no money to Gaza, let them suffer!!
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#229
"as each generation becomes more educated than the last"
I appreciate the point your trying to make here and it may be true in the UK and/or the world in general, but this statisticly, is not true in the USA. Americans as a whole were better educated 50 years ago than today. There has been a crisis in American education for some time now, many choosing American private or home schooling over faulty, dictatorial, anti-religious state schools. The actual level in the mass of people being "dumbed down" is on everyones mind here, and what this is doing to personal freedom and how we live together is a big question for our future. Many in the USA see the attempt to deminish religious FREEDOM, religion bad and good, as one to politically replace religion with some form of world communism and ditatorship. As strage as this may sound, you have to wonder if religion is so unimportant and backward, why there is such a push to dismember it. We all might look to the break-up of my families tradition here as a sign post, the Episcopal Church (Church of England in USA). This small group in America demonstrates the angry, sharpe divisions in American religion today and a huge power struggle politically causing this. Look at the Episcopal bishop who Obama picked and how he prayed as a view into this process of traditional Christain power destruction. For all it's faults the Protestant form of Christianity has made America safe, free and powerful. To destroy this great tradition and replace it by force with an unknown is dangerous. Many Americans today are feeling unsettled and unsafe about this. The anti-religion movement comes from within and without religion, but what is next...take a look at history and it is not pretty. In Russia and Germany fairly recently it caused the worst of problems. Lastly, many in America view the lack of good education as a method being used to destroy tradional religion here so the state takes over full controll of the individual and our lives.
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re: 254
A pure, crystalline exemplar of bigotry, ignorance, and callous cruelty.
Please, no one refer this post. Let it stand as testimony to the stupidity and arrogance of intolerance and hatred.
You, MagicKirin, are truly beneath contempt.
Yours in all Sincerity,
Canadian Pinko
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Ref 251, Waterman
"Fortunately, or unfortunately I must take the words of Men of the Silk above Men of the Cloth like yourself, the former subjecting me to worldly punishments when I go wrong."
My most memorable experience with Men of the Cloth involved a feeble attempt at becoming an altar boy over six decades ago, an experience that was short-lived when the parish priest noticed my affinity for the fair sex was having a major impact on the ongoing lithurgical rites. The problem was compounded by the fact that he was also the principal at the school I attended, a circumstance that led to serious long term consequences to this un-saintly mortal.
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SeansPa,
How long would you put up with living as a refugee? Note the irony that every area the qassam rockets are capable of hitting is land allocated to the Arab state under resolution 181, and probably half the Gazans are folk who used ot have homes, shops, businesses and farms there. Sixty years is a long time to "put up with" being displaced and dispossessed.Salaam, etc.
ed
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#254
Wow, the lack of humanity leaves me breathless! Have you actually seen of the footage from Gaza? I mean sure, those dead and injured Palestinians must have had it coming because it was 'precision' bombing after all.ie
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RWB (255),
1. Try a few paragraph breaks, or folks won't read your considered opinions.
2. No answer yet to my question: What gives you the idea Obama is "bothered" by the Bible?
Peace
ed
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#256
Just read your post. Unfortunately after I rose to the bait.
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#253: Oy, vey, where to begin... at the risk of invoking the wrath of the Oracle...
Your knowledge of nature is truly astonishing. The notion that people need guns to defend themselves vs. cougars, wolves, and bears is comical. There has not been a single documented wolf attack in North America, ever, since colonization. Unlike in the Old World, where starvation from the decimation of their natural prey by overpopulous humans at time rendered them desperate, in this continent we had ample technology to wipe them and their prey out before human numbers reached those levels. And while there have been an increasing number of cougar attacks, this is largely due to our populations moving into their haunts.
Brown and polar bears will attack, but there are few brown bears outside Alaska and Western Canada, and polar bears live in such remote areas that clashes aren't serious. Most attacks are from black bears, but mostly provoked by Stupid Human Tricks: the "oh, look how cuddly" approach, the "can I hold the little cub" tactic, or the startle them while they're feeding ploy.
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256 just figuring out that the Gherkin is a gherkin.
Long time ago many gave me crud for always abusing the likes of Gherkin And Mostly erroneous,(i'm not saying you).
I find it funny to watch those that defend them posters one day. they all change in the end.
I would say withdraw all aid from Israel.
Put them under sanctions as strong as Gaza has faced.
But I am not sure I would add LET THEM SUFFER. Though sorely tempted at this time.
That is the difference I see in them that always argue "for" Israel and those that argue for Gazan's or Palestinians.
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re: 227 Ed
A moment of synchronicity. I read your post after opening a letter from World Vision Canada. (www.worldvision.ca). Made my contribution online.
Having read MK's outrageous bile above, I'm going to go back and make a second donation.
World Vision has partnered with a local church in Gaza City to distribute food vouchers to families. Each voucher can be redeemed at a local supplier in exchange for a parcel including oil, canned tuna and rice, which will provide enough for a family to eat for three weeks. Each family will also receive an illustrated brochure in Arabic that warns them about the dangers of unexploded ordnance and how to recognize it. Unexploded ordnance is particularly dangerous to children as it is often small and mistaken for toys.
It's a right awful bloody world, sometimes. But we all do what we can. Who was it said "do unto to others as you would have them do unto you?" Some guy in the Bible, wasn't it?
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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but it is the deaf, dumb and blind ignorant racial stereotyping of people that causes terrorism
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At an individual level there must be good and bad people in every religion, it's staistics.
According to blanket stereotyping the current US president must a rapist and violent criminal, and the last one was more obviously more respectable, trustworthy, honourable and intelligent.
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#254 To continue, I won't address your total, deliberate misunderstanding of Cold War history, because the adamantine shell of opinion cannot be dented by anything so trivial as fact or logic.
I will, however, take serious objection to your characterization of the "Injuns" as Criminals, against which they had to arm themselves. I don't object to the settlers arming themselves, or argue that such attacks didn't occur- they did, and with sad frequency (and one took the lives of several of my 9th generation-removed relatives).
It's the "criminal" label to which I object. These were a displaced people, fighting to protect their ever shrinking homeland from waves of invaders who did not recognize their right to the land, who barely recognized their humanity, whose cheating and lying and theft and outright murder made it apparent that there was no place for them in the White World. Those who tried to adapt were forcibly displaced- the Trail of Tears- or slaughtered- the several hundred Christian Leni Lenape at Gnadenhutten, or the Conestoga, or the Wyoming Valley, or Sand Creek or Wounded Knee or many other less well known places.
The Native Americans certainly weren't all victims; many committed atrocities, and others weakened their own cause w. petty infighting, or working for the Whites. And not all Whites were bigots and enemies. But it is a sad chapter in human history for which this nation has yet to make amends...
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#260
"No answer yet to my question: What gives you the idea Obama is "bothered" by the Bible?"
I tried to answer you, based on my opinion and evaluation of my Generation. I am an Ordained Minister, Non-Denominational (obviously), and these are things I pay attention to.
In my opinion, I don't think Obama was "Bothered", for the same reason I would not be bothered. I respect ALL Religions (to varying degrees), and people's right to practice them. Obama seems to have the same opinion.
If that is the case, Obama put his hand on the Bible as a sign of respect for what it stands for, and the fact that most Americans are still Christian in one form or another.
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#254
Lack of humanity? This sort of thing has been going on ever since History began to be recorded. I am not "Pro-War", but I have sense enough to see that War has always been amongst us, and most likely always will be. Fair or not, its a simple fact, and when America or Israel aren't fighting, somebody else is.
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#255
With respect for your "Statistical" analysis, yes, there is a serious problem with education. But... from my observations it has just as much to do with the parents.
I am the father of two straight "A" students. One of which is in the fourtyh grade. The homework she is bringing home is stuff that I didn't encounter until High-School. Your theory that education in the US has not advanced is flawed, IMO.
The problems I see in my area are Parents that allow their children free reign. Without discipline in the home towards School Studys- no, they are not going to turn out "Better" educated than the previous generations.
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Ed I note that this is not seanspa
Is it seanspa child?
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252. At 3:36pm on 24 Jan 2009, seanpmc1 wrote:
"Maybe when Europe has daily bombings these idiots will wake up."
Problem is, Britain has forgotten its History. What Israel has been putting up with for the last 8 years is similar to the "Buzz Bombs" the Nazi's launched at London."
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less people died in CAr accidents in one month than in these attacks in 8 years.
These rockets are instead of suicide bombers which they have said they do not wan t to use anymore.which killed far more.
If they are launching Buzz bombs from refugee camps and we are supplying the most up to date equipment and still getting a higher civilian casualty rates.
get real.
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" Many in the USA see the attempt to deminish religious FREEDOM, religion bad and good, as one to politically replace religion with some form of world communism and ditatorship."
Where did you leave your tinfoil Hat.
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Happyjack,
I try not to respond to his posts, not because I agree, but because his ignorance speaks for itself.
Besides, you usually do such a good job of mocking them, so really, what else to say?
In this case I figured someone would refer it, and I wanted to make the case for letting it stand, because I think it serves as a clear example of how blind support for one side (in this case Israel) leads to a demonization and de-humanization of the other (in this case Arabs, muslims, Palestinians).
Keep up the good work.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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MagicKirin, you are correct about Israel being restrained. I don't think Israel has the capacity to carpet bomb a country like Lebanon because it does not have the kind of heavy bombers America had but it can cause damage to the infrastructure of Lebanon which would quickly result in the deaths of most of its inhabitants short of using nuclear weapons. It could destroy the government's ability to provide any and all vital utilities such as destroying power plants and substations, gas and oil storage facilities and pipelines, water distribution facilities, sewage treatment plants, all telecommunications networks. And it could destroy all major roads and other modes of transportation. This would leave a large population without the means to obtain food, water, medical treatment or any way for relief agencies to get it to more than a handful of people. It could have done the same in Gaza.
That it hasn't done this yet is a demonstration of phenomenal restraint. I don't know of any other country that would have sustained the kind of constant attack Israal has been subjected to for the last 61 years without taking far stronger action to eliminate its enemies. How much longer this restraint can be sustained is anyone's guess but if reports of war crimes are true and soldiers are taking it upon themselves to take actions its commanders and government doesn't sanction, then this restraint is breaking down and future attacks on Israel may result in humanitarian crises with far graver results than we've see so far.
Many may have forgotten that America used a remarkable weapon in Serbia, a bomb which released carbon fibers that short circuited electrical substations causing power outages that would be readily repairable after the war was over but which left areas blacked out for the duration of the war. They could just as easily have destroyed those facilities resulting in outages that would have lasted for many months or years.
The Arabs are taking a terrible gamble with the lives of their citizens. For Israel, enough is enough. Restraint in self defense only goes so far. In the future, entire populations may be eliminated as a political entity if the attacks on Israel continue. And Iran is flirting with national suicide.
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#267
"sad chapter in human history for which this nation has yet to make amends..."
The same can be said for my Irish Ancestors. They lived with thousands of years of being invaded by various foriegn cultures, but when they finally stood up for themselves against England, they were treated with contempt and labeled as terrorists.
They used whatever means possible, and finally gained independence for most of their country. You Brits called them terrorist's. I think you need to take a look at your own peoples tactics towards Ireland during Cromwell's time...
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saintDominick # 257,
It is a small world. Inaptly named after saints and saviours I too in my childhood would make attempts at approaching the fairer sex in the church.
Dressed in my best boy scout uniform I hoped they would fall for the "man" in the uniform, but had minimal success. Knobbly knees exaggerated by the shorts I was forced to wear had little pulling powers.
At least the altar-boy's smock gave you the required mystery needed.
Ahh.... those religious rites / rights of passage to adulthood!
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Too gherkin and Not seans PA
We all await a reasoned argument how the Brits not bombing Dublin was not showing more restraint than Israel.
If as with other posters here over a year you cannot answer that question then stop raising the point that has been shown to be false.
And do shut up
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#273 seanpmc1
Human nature is sadly the same the world over. Many of the persecuted Irish became the persecutors upon reaching freedom in the New World. The Puritans fled persecution in the Old World, and set up an intolerant theocracy in the New.
And so the cycle continues in Palestine...
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With reference to the Gaza/Israel debate that has crept into this thread, shouldn't Iran fund the reconstruction of Gaza ? After all it was Iran who supplied the thousands of rockets launched at Israel over the years....they should pick up the tab for the damage their tactics have caused. But if it is the UN, once again, who funds the aid to Gaza can they at least make sure the money is spent on food not more rockets ? If only Hamas spent as much time building a secular society in Gaza as they do buying weapons then we might finally see peace in the MIddle East..
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#269
"Ed I note that this is not seanspa
Is it seanspa child?"
No, I am a new member, and last time I looked 40 years doesn't qualify as being a child.
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"less people died in CAr accidents in one month than in these attacks in 8 years."
Statistically, the Buzz Bombs missed far more times than they hit as well. Its still the same use of the "Terror" factor. How many people are killed by the attacks were not my intended point.
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"Get real" ??
I'm as real as it gets. Face the facts of history. We are simply repeating the same mistakes we have maid for thousand of years, the technology has just changed.
You and all your protesting friends have a right to your own opinions, I don't deny that. But all the protesting in the world isn't going to stop War. It is in our nature as Human Beings. Maybe in some far off future we will have the Utopian civilization you people dream of, but for now, War, genocide, terrorism, etc., is a reality. Like it or not...
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Via-media, what planet do you live on? Where did you learn American History, Patrice Lamumba University in Moscow USSR?
During the American colonial period, the colonial settlers built small villages and towns. They worked small farms with draft animals. The amount of land they consumed was miniscule compared to the vast wilderness beyond their small enclaves. Saying that in this period the Indians were thrown off their land is a joke. They also lived in small villages. They were predominantly hunters and trappers, not farmers. They did not like Europeans settling on any of their hunting grounds, clearing forests, and living there. It was not a direct threat to them but the reacted to it anyway due to a territorial instinct even predatory animals exhibit. Indians fought on both sides of the French and Indian wars which ended French claims to territories in North America east of the (vast) Louisiana Territory. Britain was the sole colonial occupier after that war. Indians whether as allies to one side or the other before that war, as allies to the British after it, or as independently opposed to white settlers were often adamant and a clear threat to them. In the period after the war and early into the 19th century, they became a threat further west. Ever hear of Daniel Boone? This war lasted late into the 19th century as Americans migrated westward towards the Pacific Ocean. Eventually, after considerable carnage on both sides, Indians finally learned to live in peace accepting that the White man was there to stay. Now do you think it will take centuries before Arabs come to understand that Israel as an enclave in the Middle East is there to stay also? How much carnage will that take? That is entirely up to the Arabs.
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ref #271
It is no demonization which all of you are doing calling the Israelis terrorists when they are the victims.
It is also not racists to point out the double standard the world has.
No European protests during the terrorist missle attacks.
Why should we reward the Palestinians for electing terrorists? Why does the U.N colloborate and let them use U.N schools as arms caches.
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Ed
I read that ITV, Channel 4, and Five are going to run the DEC ad. Shame on the BBC. I fear the beeb has been bullied by minority crazy Z words for it's 'unbiased' coverage!
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The system's in power play games of chess where innocent civilians are pawns in the game.
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273 another kid listening to U2 as their History.
Sorry to say this but there are few as ignorant on the topic of Ireland than the "american" "Irish".
"They lived with thousands of years of being invaded by various foriegn cultures,"
yea thousands, they all came.
Hint, Romans didn't.
I'm not knocking Irish just that strange breed of idiots called the "american Irish"
It was the English that were invaded by so many cultures.
They had to put up with all them Romans,them vikings, them hordes from all europe.
And finally the French.
Do you not think the fact that Irish still exists as a language and the existence of Celtic language is the visible proof that there were not so many invasions , because if there were so many they would be speaking some language that has more euro influence.
All of Britain were Celts at one time.
Until them pesky romans turned up.
You know less than my cat on this subject of that I am sure.
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#264
"Who was it said "do unto to others as you would have them do unto you?" Some guy in the Bible, wasn't it?"
That idealism is contained within nearly every religion in the world. Sometimes its worded differently, and sometimes you have to read between the lines, but nevertheless its there.
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277 vivaelcid
With reference to the Gaza/Israel debate that has crept into this thread, shouldn't Iran fund the reconstruction of Gaza
Fact is, they probably will. Thereby gaining more influence and control in Gaza. So what will Israel have gained?
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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277. At 4:52pm on 24 Jan 2009, vivaelcid wrote:
With reference to the Gaza/Israel debate that has crept into this thread, shouldn't Iran fund the reconstruction of Gaza ? After all it was Iran who supplied the thousands of rockets launched at Israel over the years....they should pick up the tab for the damage their tactics have caused. But if it is the UN, once again, who funds the aid to Gaza can they at least make sure the money is spent on food not more rockets ? If only Hamas spent as much time building a secular society in Gaza as they do buying weapons then we might finally see peace in the MIddle East..
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Iran can fund the damage done by their rockets in Israel and we can fund the damage by Our rockets in Gaza.
that would seem fair.
That would be the damage they caused, not the tactics.And seeing as you have not posted on anything since oct 23 I suspect troll in employment of Israel should be applied to you.
As the Saudi man says
Sort it out america,
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252 sean
Problem is, Britain has forgotten its History. What Israel has been putting up with for the last 8 years is similar to the "Buzz Bombs" the Nazi's launched at London."
Were the Nazis trying to bomb Churchill and the government who were hiding amongst the civilian population of London?! Was Churchill using civilians as cover?
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279 Marcus you didn't get any brighter during the last few months . such a shame.
Indians were and are treated in a criminal way by the USA.
" Indians finally learned to live in peace accepting that the White man was there to stay. "
You mean were shot and poisoned into submission.
Yu stil thick
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Thanks Jack. I owe Sean's Pa an apology. Still no answer from RWB about the "bother" bit.seanpmc1, Are you RWB?
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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it doesn't sound right when top heavy military governments with billions invested in the arms industries call poor countries terrorists
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El Cid and Pinko,
Fact is Hamas began distributing money the minute the ceasefire took effect. As with Hezbollah in Lebanon, they will not lack funds from Syria and/or Iran, while we (with the BBC's daft feebleness) will be too little and too late to the hearts and minds....Sad
ed
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256 chronophobe
I haven't the slightest intention of defending MagicKirin's 254 - or Id Iglehart's unbright 250 that spurred his incomprehensible comments, but if you were to focus on plain "ignorance" just consider the views expressed about George Bush in many of these postings. What a pile of dishonesty and intellectually limited appraisal of his presidency!
From day one of his presidency the predominantly liberal/left U.S. media hated his guts and didn't let up - except briefly after 9/11 which most thought he handled pretty well. Having unrelentingly prepared the all too gullible masses, it all to readily swallowed the anti-Bush medication.
Now you'd think Bush caused 9/11 and the war it started, not Muslim extremists - who started this war when Clinton was in office, and continue the war while many Americans - who don't believe in anything any more, evidently not even their freedoms and institutions - wilt. They want the war to go away and because it doesn't Bush is to blame. Pitiful!
Allmymarbles once reminded us it was Bill Clinton who is responsible for the de-regulation that set the stage for the sub-rpime financial mess, but now we are to believe it is entirely Bush who is to blame.
The vast majority in Congress supported the U.S. attack on Afghanistan from whence the 9/11 attack originated - even Iraq after reading the same intelligence reports he received. Yes, Hillary and others read the same reports! This, too, is shoved out of memories.
Were those reports 'manipulated'? It seems they were, but also forgotten is the 12 years of post 1st Gulf War 'containment' of Iraq during which it's leader rejected U.N. resolutions and pretended that he still had WMD. Hans blix did a lousy job of convincing anyone Saddam Hussein had got rid of his WMD and only got clever after the event.
I can think of many things that turned me off Bush, but the pathetic anti-Bush nonsense written here is satifying mostly to those with poor memories, a bad dose of dishonesty and limited intellect, some of which explains the ignorance behind Obama's election.
Yeah, I can already hear the howls of wrath. A dose of truth and reality never does sit well.
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278 If americans demand no more spending Our money on arming Israel This war would soon come to a more even keel.
"But all the protesting in the world isn't going to stop War. It is in our nature as Human Beings"
Really ? It could also be argued that War is not a human thing but a society thing.
Humans generally try to end wars at some stage.
You are not wise smart helpful or anything but a silly childish war monger it seems.
You and you reactionary anti Hamas protesters should face facts and reality (that which you claim to embody) .
Hamas Exists and even the Israeli military understand that if they get rid of Hamas there will be a vacuum .
And that will lead to suicide bombers who will upset things further.
Israel has so many chickens waiting in a holding pattern they are going to have to ground their airforce.
Get real
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#280 Magic
Why should we reward the Palestinians for electing terrorists?
Isn't 'electing terrorists' what the US and Israel have done for years? Should they be punished?
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278 "I'm as real as it gets"
yes a real prize banker
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#283
"strange breed of idiots called the "american Irish""
I have restrained myself from personally attacking you, so if you have any manners at all, you will do the same.
As for Idiot American Irish, my ancestors (on both sides) came here during the late 1800's. They were treated as badly, and sometimes worse than Blacks at that time.
We take pride in our ancestry, especially because of what it took for our people to rise through the ranks of American society.
Yes, we had our Irish mafia, much like the Italians, but by and large much of America was build by Irish Labor.
You are right in one respect. Our version of being "Irish" is different. We take great pride in our heritage and the effort it took for us to be accepted as equals in America. Much of the history we know has been passed down verbally through our previous generations and inevitably has been changed.
I myself however, am not entirely ignorent of the "real" Ireland you mention, and I am certainly not ignorent of the Celtic races that covered both Ireland and Europe.
Refrain from insulting me in your future answers to anything I say. If you approach this in a neutral manner as I have been attempting to do, I will continue to grant you your opinion.
If you continue to personally insult me, I will return the favor, especially since the moderator seems to be allowing it to happen...
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People should have a conversation with their god up in the sky to ask if the killings are sanctioned.
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289 Glad to help .
This is no seanspa , but a total (moderated).
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re: 284 seanpmc1
And is it not that ideal towards which we should all aspire?
Yes, humans are flawed creatures, capable of terrible things, not least of which is war. But we are also called toward good things: not least of which are beauty, mercy, love.
And should not we, when presented with a choice, always try to choose the higher path, so that, through our choices, the world becomes closer to that ideal?
War (an eye for an eye) leads to more war. Peace leads to new possibilities: "Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity." (Colossians 3:13, 14)
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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#285 Pinko
Good point as always.
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#293
"You and you reactionary anti Hamas protesters "
I don't recall taking "sides" for either of them. Did you dream this up on your own, or simply not make the attempt to understand what I was trying to say?
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Seanpmc1,
Are you confirming its validity or dismissing it as "idealism"? As you're a man of the cloth, I feel we should be told.Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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happylaze, is this your version of history? You must have attended school in Europe. Small wonder Europeans bash Americans at every opportunity having been taught so many distortions, lies, and half truths. Just the way the Palestinians and all other Moslems have been taught about Israel. But it the end, their ignorance and yours has an expensive price to pay.
Palestinians widely rejoiced at the murder of 3000 Americans on 9-11-01. At that point they made themselves America's enemy...and after America tried so hard under Clinton to find a peaceful way for them to co-exist with Israel and have their own state, that's gratitude for you.
The Palestinians are lucky Americans haven't taken it upon themselves to attack them before the Israelis did. It was clearly a provocation. I for one see no reason why the US should continue to try to help them. I think that their importance in world affairs is a pure myth and has been ever since the end of the cold war.
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#288
So far, happylaze, that is the only sensible thing concerning Americans that I've seen you write today.
The Native Americans are still treated like trash in much of the US, and I find it to be an extremely shameful state of affairs.
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#299 Pinko
I agree with you as to what we as a Race are capable of, but I fear the best we will ever be able to achieve is "Balance".
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#289
"seanpmc1, Are you RWB?"
If that means Right Wing Biased, no. I am considered a Centrist, by US definition.
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seanpmc1, your knowledge is utterly obsolete. What do you Europeans know about anything to do with America...or anything else for that matter?
As a typical example, from Foxwood's web site.
In 1986 the Mashantucket Pequot Tribal Nation opened the original high-stakes bingo hall. Today Foxwoods comprises six casinos that collectively offer more than 7,000 slot machines and an incredible 400 tables for 17 different types of table games, including 100 for poker. There's a luxurious, high-tech Race Book, as well as the world's largest Bingo Hall.
Foxwoods is the largest casino in the world, with 340,000 square feet of gaming space in a complex that covers 4.7 million square feet. More than 40,000 guests visit Foxwoods each day.
Contact Us
Accommodations at the resort total 1,416 guest rooms and suites, including the 824 room Grand Pequot Tower, 312 room Great Cedar Hotel and the 280 room Two Trees Inn. For conventions and group events, Foxwoods features more than 55,000 square feet of meeting space and 25 conference rooms.
MGM Grand at Foxwoods has added nearly 2 million square feet of overall space, featuring significantly increased hotel, entertainment, restaurants and gaming venues as well as enhanced corporate retreat, meeting and convention resources.
http://www.foxwoods.com/
One more proof that Europeans are liars, fools, and ignoramuses. Makes Monaco look like a tiny poor slum. But then Las Vegas did that too a long time ago.
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#302
"Are you confirming its validity or dismissing it as "idealism"? As you're a man of the cloth, I feel we should be told."
I confirm its validity. But I deny the fact that anytime in the near future, that this will become a world policy.
Above all else I am a realist, and I am Non-Denominational because from my point of view, every one of the major religions is loaded with hypocrites. That is why I choose Deism as my guiding Philosophy. Specifically, "Process Deism", which is a branch of the modern manifestation of Deism.
I simply believe in God and that God has a plan. War is terrible, yes, but many of the technological and Medical improvements that we enjoy today came from technology developed during times of War.
Can we deny the fact that War advances us, even while it destroys us?
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I have restrained myself from personally attacking you, so if you have any manners at all, you will do the same.
wrong person to try this line with.
Go ahead.
War monger
Fool
Bias yellow bellied blind scardy cat chickenhawk armchair general.
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Marcus,
You are a total Walter Mitty.
All your posts totaly distorted the truth.
No one, will ever be able to straighten you out.
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Can wars ever be looked at objectively by parties independent of feeling, instead of subjectively based on beliefs and desires. The only possible fair way can b by neutrality when it is looked at by people on neither side.
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#307
"seanpmc1, your knowledge is utterly obsolete. What do you Europeans know about anything to do with America..."
Read backwards a little bit... I have already stated that I live in Missouri. Just in case you didn't pay attention in School, Missouri is smack in the middle of the US, not Europe.
Depending on your source of information, those Indian casino's aren't what they appear to be on the surface. And according to many, the money largely stays in the hands of the few, not spread out among the reservations in the manner everybody seems to think it is.
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#309 happylaze
You have proved my point... Thank you.
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Seanpmc1,
I don't know about a plan, but if there is one, it must include putting all the topsoil on the seafloor as well as keeping us diverted from Truth with the Illusion of ProgressShanthi
ed
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279 MarcusAurelius11
Marcus, I don't understand why you've bother to write as you have here. Treatment of the American Indians by encroaching settlers was shameful and is largely indefensible. Among the worst acts was the treatment of the Cherokees that led to the 'Trail of tears' forced marches to Arkanas, thousands dying en route. The Cherokee had embraced the white's way of life amazingly well with schools and libraries, yet it wasn't good enough for whites who wanted their land.
What happened in the West was largely genocide in which the U.S. Cavalry shamed itself. It got what it deserved at Little Big Horn, but didn't get what it deserved when fighting the Apache, Geronimo in particular. In that case General Miles proved himself a man devoid of honour, which is not something of which one can accuse Geronimo. That is not a proud chapter in U.S. history.
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313
I have proved nothing but my intolerance for idiots justifying carnage .
Idiots I would point out that think
"Can we deny the fact that War advances us, even while it destroys us?"
Yes.
War has got us What that could not have been achieved without it.
Patients to practice on?
Most of the world problems are either a result of war or the crap we developed " for war ".
IE transport.
Which could be used for good things like giving the ability to process our state shrimp harvest in China.
Great.
needed that.
No that is one pathetic example but then you are american and suffer from that. it can be fought resisted if you try.
In blacksmithing americans concentrate on Knives and Guns.
Americans because it is so prevalent that decent smiths have to put notices up saying "During this course No blade talk will be discussed."
In the rest of the civilised world your obsession that war does good is left to pre pubescent school boys reading "warlord" .
But in america you are just another american, male, no doubt who wouldn't know what's wrong because you live in the UNreal world of america. there is little real here. just image and show.
311 KIKI
those neutrals are ignored at best attacked more often.
America should be in the position of being neutral on t his but they are not.
Huge propaganda aside how is this?
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313 what was your point?
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Ref 308, Sean
"Can we deny the fact that War advances us, even while it destroys us?"
Yes, wars are often profitable, they help overly ambitious and unprincipled nations expand their territory, seize someone else's resources, achieve its economic and geopolitical goals, impose its ideology and values on others, and give us a tremendous opportunity to test our weapons, improve them, and train our troops. Somehow, I doubt its victims regard war as an advancement.
In my modest opinion, war is the ultimate manifestation of brutality, ignorance, and greed.
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seanpmc1
Indian nations are not on United States territory and are not subject to its laws. That is why they were able to exploit a niche market in gambling that is off limits to American citizens, the result of state laws in most states. Their investments, their distribution of profits, their lifstyle, how they use their land are decisions usually made by a tribal councils. For better or worse, it is their decision, not ours. That suits them, that suits us. What alternative do you propose, that we forcibly impose our will on them telling them what to do with their money according to your idea of what is fair and equitable distribution of wealth? That is exactly what we and they do not want to happen.
I don't know what "appearances" you are talking about but Foxwoods is a stone's throw from New York City. Express buses will pick you up locally and take you there for a day, a weekend, a month, or whatever you want. I don't know how you disguise the profits of what looks like a billion dollar gambling resort in the middle of the best market for it on earth and I'm not going to even try. Admit it, you never even heard of Foxwoods before my posting. Are you sure Missouri is in America? Do they have caves there? You're a minister? When are you going?
from William Crawley's web site;
"Two priests, both originally from Ireland, are at the centre of the biggest embezzlement case in the history of the American Catholic Church. They are accused of stealing more than $800,000, from their parish collection plates, to fund holidays, gambling, and the expenses of lovers and mistresses. Monsignor John Skehan has already pleaded guilty to embezzlement. His colleague at St Vincent Ferrer Church, Fr Francis Guinan, denies the charge. Fr Skehan comes from Johnstown, in County Kilkenny, and Fr Guinan is originally from Birr, County Offaly. In fact, it was while returning from a trip to Ireland in 2006 that Fr Skehan was arrested."
You don't have to go to Sin City to gamble if you don't want to. Can you get your hands on $800,000? How about $800?
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#314
I can play the quoting game as well...
" Laws lie, the eyes see only what they have been conditioned to see, and the mind is a refuse pile of other people's ideas."
-Barry Hughart
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"Do not accept anything by mere tradition.
Do not accept anything just because it accords with your scriptures.
Do not accept anything merely because it agrees with your pre-conceived notions.
But when you know for yourselves—these things are moral, these things are blameless, these things are praised by the wise, these things, when performed and undertaken, conduce to well-being and happiness—then do you live and act accordingly.
-The Buddha
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timewaitsfornoman,
"When I was asked to swear an oath, three books were pointed out to me and I was told I could place my hand on any or none. The Bible, the Koran, the Torah. "
I would have said, "Stack them and let me swear by all 3."
Think about it.
As for the rest,
At least ONE person here tries to make positive posts. You guys are fighting like cats and dogs, and even getting personal at times. MAII, calling someone "dense"? Really man, is that any way to behave?!
Really, immature behavior doesn't make you look particularly respectable. Sure makes me skip on by when I read it.
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Unlike its more re\cent parallel in Palestine?Complain about this comment
Realism is knowing that killing innocents as they huddle for refuge is wrong.
Realism is knowing that it will provoke more hatred.
realism is knowing that if you think defending carnage and slaughter because war is inevitable and a natural human trait will not get all us posters writing how great a post you made.
The be polite try to be all I'm better , above , etc. It will get you no where.
And if you are Christian I'll love walking by you in the line to hell.
I've got a pit bull reputation (without lipstick,Ie rabid and fearless) for attacking your sorts of so called "moderates" "in the middle" when they come with this crap argument that normally(not always) leads the holders of such views to say Israel has done no wrong.
Look it is the victims of this CRIME of giving some people other peoples land and then demanding at the end of a barrel that they be compliant.
As to Ireland you don't know squat it seems. After all you talk of Thousands of years of oppression.
You forget that when william of Orange FINALLY turned up to help the poor besieged people of Derry (changed to londonderry)they had held out against the
CATHOLIC invaders from over in France for 4 or 5 years man.
Those people fought not to have the biggest power in the world take them over.
Those freedom fighters that won against the cruel and tyrannical yolk of the pope.
Those who's decedents you probably paid to kill when you contributed to the"st paddy" days fund.
Worms turned the hunter the hunted etc.
But your lack of awareness shows that you are probably like most of those so called "Irish americans"
Hell just to be provocative what ancestry did you have.
Probably half Scots Irish.
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315 Rob well said.
Marcus does it like my dog cocks his leg, before thought.
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318 well said that saint.
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#317
"313 what was your point?"
That you have no manners, and are incabable of respectful disagreement . In your own way, you are just as Militant, as "all" of us Americans are...
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robloop, you make the war between the white man and indian tribes sound very one sided like a lot of people do. But in truth, it was very dangerous for Euro-Americans to face Indian tribes alone or in small groups. Just traveling west across Camanche or Apache territory was to put your life at risk.
Don't forget that the among first European settlers on North American land at Jamestown, John Smith and his small band would have been slaughtered by the local Indian tribe had it not been for the intervention of the Chief's daughter Pocahontas who fell in love with their leader, John Smith.
From Wikipedia;
"On April 26, 1607, Captain Edward Maria Wingfield, elected president of the governing council the day before, selected Jamestown Island on the James River, some 40 miles (67 kilometers) inland from the Atlantic Ocean, as a prime location for a fortified settlement. The island was surrounded by deep water, making it a navigable and defensible strategic point. However, the island was swampy, isolated, offered limited space and was plagued by mosquitoes and brackish tidal river water unsuitable for drinking. Perhaps the best thing about it from an English point of view was that it was not inhabited by nearby Native American tribes, who regarded the site as too poor and remote for agriculture."
So was this miserable piece of land the Indians didn't even want and the handful of white settlers on it a threat to them too?
In fact many Indian tribes warred against each other as well. This was the case at Jamestown too;
"While no Native Americans inhabited the area of the settlement, there were an estimated 14,000 Algonquian Indians in the surrounding Chesapeake area. They came to be known as the Powhatan Confederacy, after the name the colonists called their powerful chief, Wahunsenacawh, and lived in several dozen self-governing communities.
Wahunsenacawh initially welcomed the settlers and attempted to form an alliance with them to take over some of the surrounding communities which he did not yet control"
In other words, he wanted a military alliance to assist with his ambitions of conquest.
There are many examples all over meso-America. the warlike Caribs who drove out the Arawaks in the Carribean for example. And there was the cruel sacrifices Aztecs, Mayans, and Inca offered to the gods from among their captives.
Yes, a gun was an indespenisble item for anyone living and trying to survive in the American wilderness back then. Sometimes it seems that way now too.
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Seanpmc1, Namaste
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peaceed
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#318
"In my modest opinion, war is the ultimate manifestation of brutality, ignorance, and greed."
Nevertheless, it has always been here, and likely always will be.
That was the original point I tried to make, nothing more, nothing less. But like most everything else I have said on here, it has been transformed from a simple statement, to a convoluted mess...
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#319
"How about $800?"
If its any of your business, yes. $800 is pretty close to my net pay. I'm a Union Sheetmetal Worker by trade.
Lets see how long it takes before I get trashed for being Union now... ;-)
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think of gulf wars as bush and cheney palns to stimulate economies in recessions by boosting the arms industries usual buddy buddy systems.
round 1 was iraq 1990 first time US got a foothold in the middle east. april gallaspie told saddam hussein that the US would never get involved in arab-arab conflicts and also told kuwait not to worry about him.
round 2 practice makes perfect gwb was gagging to go to war in iraq even though 9-11 was about bin laden who hated saddam
that equals 20 years on/off war and policing
the old plans are the best
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#323
"And if you are Christian I'll love walking by you in the line to hell."
Further proof that you open your mouth before reading the facts.
I have mentioned twice that I am a Deist. Deism and Christianity are two different things.
As for hell and damnation? No such thing, IMO. Repeated reincarnation until you learn your lesson, maybe.
Everlasting torment in Hell simply because you weren't able to gain control over your innate human faults, I doubt it...
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Check out the real situation:
Nation war against nation.
Where did it all begin?
When will it end?
Well, it seems like: total destruction the only solution,
And there ain't no use: no one can stop them now.
Ain't no use: nobody can stop them now.
Give them an inch, they take a yard;
Give them a yard, they take a mile (ooh);
Once a man and twice a child
And everything is just for a while
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#323
"You forget that when william of Orange..."
Yes thousands. Read some history yourself sweetheart. Ever hear of the semi-mythic Milesians? New research suggests that they weren't quite as "Mythic" as first assumed. They were Celts that came across the waters from Spain, much as the "Myths" suggested.
How about the Vikings that Brian Boru routed from Ireland sometime around 1,000 ad?
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re. 207. Finntann:
I think another interpretation might be that he included the bible in the swearing-in that he felt was the real one--the public inauguration. The business of taking the oath a second time was something he did merely to satisfy his staff's legalistic concerns. For that one he stuck to the letter of the law and didn't include the bible. It was like a second take in the movies, to insure that you have good footage in the can.
He allowed media coverage of the second oath to document the oath-taking as a defense against right-wing loonies. Who don't accept him anyway, so I don't know why he bothered.
And I would guess that he wasn't very happy about the whole imbroglio because it took away from what should have been a very satisfying personal moment at the inauguration. It would have pissed me off, and I doubt that I am nearly as goal-oriented as he is.
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326. At 6:48pm on 24 Jan 2009, seanpmc1 wrote:
#317
"313 what was your point?"
That you have no manners, and are incabable of respectful disagreement . In your own way, you are just as Militant, as "all" of us Americans are...
--------------------------------------------
Yes that would be because I'm american. Thanks for proving that point.lol
Except that I believe Militant should leave the military out of it.
Yes I find it hard to be respectful of those that promote murder and carnage so FINE.
I would be even less respectful if the Mods allowed it.
You think you have manners?
I thought you had a point about the discussion not the rudeness of my comments.
I thought you were trying to say that the people of Israel should be forgiven acting like war criminals in this barbaric campaign because they had suffered from the terror of the Rockets for so long.
(comparing it to the doodlebugs.Notice nice name(in order to belittle them well done ministry them days)).
Totally forgetting Israeli's taking others land and treating them as Americans treat indians(but worse) for 60years.
That they had Gaza under siege for years.
If you are a realist you would know that people under siege do not like it.
But stick with me Buddy because me calling you a prat or whatever will make you feel good about yourself, even if there is no reason to feel anything positive.
Now if you had started with Israel's reaction was way out of order but the people of Israel have lived like the Brits did during the Blitz with the constant worry of where the unguided bombs would land, and though not an excuse for slaughter can you please understand that they are humans reacting or their situation.
I would say fair nuff, BUT........
But then as often is the case you did not show that unbias reasoning.
Do you want another name?
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#328 Ed
And I bow to you in return... ;-)
I'm not very experienced with using HTML, or whatever they call that stuff, I guess I'll have to study up on it.
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#333
"Where did it all begin?"
In reference to the current problems with the US and the Middle East, a case could be made for our European ancestors starting it in the first place.
Looking at it objectively, one could say that this has been going on since the first "Crusade".
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330
unions are good. so no worries there, though others will not agree.
I also see that you claim not to support either side in the palestine Israel situation, fair nuff good.
Maybe you first letter and my replies are a bit harsh.
If you are not such a banker as I implied earlier could you explain
" Fair or not, its a simple fact, and when America or Israel aren't fighting, somebody else is."
So somebody's got to do it?
Crap answer.
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seanpmc1
"#319
"How about $800?"
If its any of your business, yes. $800 is pretty close to my net pay. I'm a Union Sheetmetal Worker by trade.
Lets see how long it takes before I get trashed for being Union now... ;-)"
Who are you kidding? Skilled trade labor at union wages in the US bills out at around $80 an hour or more. You only made $800 net a week if you didn't work a full work week. I thought you said you are a minister. Is that your side job? So why not go to Foxwoods and try to parley it into $8000 or $800,000. Even if you lose it, it will go a good caue, to "dem injuns." :-)
FYI, I am very supportive of trade unions. I depend on skilled IBEW electricians to build my designs. My life has been saved literally more than once by their skilled work. Glad you have at least one skill of value to society. Even if you waste your spare time as a minister. How much does that take in? Reverand Tin Knocker, bang out any "tin pot gods" lately :-)
Anyone remember jacksforge who was a tin knocker wanabee? He banged out sheet metal frogs he sold at flea markets in Oregon...from old galvanized sheetmetal garbage cans, auto body parts, washing machine and refrigerator housings, whatever he could find. A one many metal recycling machine :-)
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Mid East crises
The same pattern repeats itself at the expense of US domestic policies, the US public get short changed again.
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kikidread #333
"Nation war against nation.
Where did it all begin?"
You see , there were these two amoebas fighting over a few free floating protein molecules. The one which got it would live, the other would die.
You going to Gaza to join the jihadists?
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#323
"Hell just to be provocative what ancestry did you have.
Probably half Scots Irish."
First McGrath ancestor and his wife came from Capoquinn, in Waterford County. His Son married an Irish neighbors daughter, his Grandson married the daughter of my G.G. Grandpa Wilson, who came to Missouri from Londonderry, then married an Irish housemaid, although we aren't sure where in Ireland she came from. One of the resulting children from that match is my 86 year old Grandfather, his wife is a McDonald, (there is your Scot-Irish mix)Thats the Paternal line.
The Maternal line- My mothers Grandparents on one side were two Orphans from Dublin. They were married in Ireland, but soon afterwards ended up in Kansas. On her other side, both Grandparents were of Welsh descent.
Does that answer your question satisfactorily?
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Some people seem particularly bothered by the situation in the Middle East right now. I'm not among them. I think it's relatively quiet for the moment. Perhaps those who would change it will think twice and it will stay this way for awile. Perhaps Hamas and for that matter Hezbollah have had enough "victory" for the time being.
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338
the towns and cities named in the bible also refer to the same towns and cities in lebanon israel palestine where the current conflicts are so it's been going on since the beginning of time
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327 MarcusAurelius11
Marcus, I have no illusions about any human beings. None are like the London Missionary Society (that in the 18th century went to South Africa), would naively have us believe about the 'natives', i.e. that they were "Innocent children of nature" and thus without sin (utter piffle!), but we can't overlook that it was whites who were encroaching into what was Indian land. As in Africa where Africans fought and killed each other long before Europeans arrived, Indians fought each other, but in our case it was us invading what had been their land and to that extent they had a right to fight the intruders, not welcome them.
I've read that the Souix were among the cruelest of plains Indians and not the nice guys that Kevin Koster would have us believe from his movie, 'Dancing with Wolves', but nevertheless we can't forget that it was the whites who were intruding into their land.
And yes, the Aztecs and Myans were a rubbishy, murderous, lot. Maybe God decided that even the thoroughly flawed Spaniards should be used to smash the them for their brutality!
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#336
"Now if you had started with Israel's reaction was way out of order..."
If you are asking for a clear and concise opinion, I don't think we should be involved in ANY of the crap in the middle east.
Am I unfeeling of those who suffer from War? No, I am not. Regardless of that fact,
I stand by what I said... War happens, always has, always will. That is reality...
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There are several good histories, e.g.:from Jews for Justice
and
from Mideastweb
and
longer from Mideastweb
and, because it's pdf, you'll have to go here for a very good analysis of the "two narratives" from Gush Shalom.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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334 They were not INVADED and taken over by them "mythological" people.
I am not one to deny Myths.
Or the fact that they came ,they went they cameback and were given.Right?
Where is the evidence for WAR?
In those days they could invade but it meant little to the people who ignored whoever was in power.
Them Vikings, they were sent packing right?
You totally missed the point about William of Orange though it seems.
but first 332
what part of IF do you not understand
""And if you are Christian I'll love walking by you in the line to hell."
Further proof that you open your mouth before reading the facts."
This comment was made to many here including those that call themselves christians.
"Everlasting torment in Hell simply because you weren't able to gain control over your innate human faults, I doubt it..."
Do at least try you freak.(see nice words)
as for your ministry. Hogswash.
You marry people, right?
did you get it off the internet like the others I know ?
Now back to Billy the Pink
Who came to the rescue of the besieged people of Derry.
Those who did not want to be run by the POPE.
Did you not get the freedom fighter first in the is tale were the Pro England people of Ireland.
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kikidread;
"Mid East crises
The same pattern repeats itself at the expense of US domestic policies, the US public get short changed again."
Here's a novel thought, wipe the whole place out. Israel, the Jews, the Arabs, Iran, North Africa, all of it. Without warning so they can't escape. Both sides. It would be cheaper that way and the whole thing would be solved once and for all. When it's over, we just go in and take the oil. Problem solved, case closed. :-) Seems fair to me.
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There are also parallels with sub-prime and the S&L scandals from back in the 80's and 90's.
At the time of the first iraq war Bush's bro' was going to court and ollie north was involved in guns for drugs trails, when the first gulf war broke out it acted as a smokescreen to bury the trials and news. The conflict happened because Kuwait and Iraq shared oil fields and Kuwait sucked it all out. Lockerbie also happened at the same time and allegedly the bomb was brought in using the drug smuggling route used by covert op's
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#340
"Who are you kidding? Skilled trade labor at union wages in the US bills out at around $80 an hour or more"
$80 per hour is our labor rate for bidding purposes, that is not what our actual wages are. If I lived in New York or Chicago where the Unions are still strong, I might actually see $80 an hour, but I live smack in the middle of Missouri.
Nice little town named Fulton, MO. If you are a history buff, you might recognize it as the place Winston Churchill made his "Iron Curtain" speech. Its also the town that Ronald Reagans famous movie "Kings Row" was based on.
I said I was an Ordained Minister, I didn't say I did it for a living. I have a family to raise and kids to put through college...
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#178. MarcusAureliusII: "America doesn't need Europe . . . The Taleban and al Qaeda are much closer to them than they are to us."
In which case, why did they destroy the Twin Towers when there are so many more important buildings in Europe? The closeness had nothing to do with it, but rather the symbolism of what, in their opinion, those buildings represented.
#307: "Europeans are liars, fools, and ignoramuses."
Desperate words from someone who cannot accept the fact that America has had its moment of glory and that the baton is to be passed on. Nothing lasts forever, not even "power". In a century global politics and economics will have changed beyond all recognition.
I note there has been no response to the matter of funding raised in #206. Presumably it's OK for Voice of America, Al-Hurra and Radio Sawa to be funded by money "sucked from the American taxpayer", broadcasts which are not permitted to be heard on American soil. It would appear that although you denigrate PBS you watch its transmissions - don't for one moment think that your measly tax contribution pays for it. The least you could do would be to donate the equivalent of a full tank of gas for that Lincoln of yours - perhaps the Andre Rieu programming would give way to something which has your approval.
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#339
"So somebody's got to do it?
Crap answer."
There is no answer. Thats just the way it is. You can't change it, neither can I. It would require the entire world to agree, or be forced to agree.
That isn't likely to happen...
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340 Now Mostly erroneous
you know jacksforge did not work with galvanised metal. He is not as stupid as you.
If you feel the desire go ahead.
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#340
"Reverand Tin Knocker, bang out any "tin pot gods" lately :-)"
Actually my specialty is Stainless work. Cladding restaurant walls, TIG welding countertops and other equipment together, fabbing SS equipment for the local KRAFT and 3M plants, etc.
Anytime I'm not doing SS work, I'm doing HVAC work. So no, I haven't had time lately to bang out any "Gods".
I do however have a hardhat sticker that says "Tin-Knockers", with a picture of two metal Breasts... ;-)
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seanpmc1 #343, that's nothing. I can trace my ancestry back to the amoeba that won in my posting #342. What have you got, a few hundred years maybe? That ain't spit, mine goes back around 3 billion years. Now that's what I call heritage.
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343 yes very well
so you admit you are descended from those that oppressed the poor natives. that fine , don't blame my devonian family for doing to Ireland what your people did to the other half;)
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robloop, I'm no more interested in your romanticized notion of property rights going back to the two cavemen ug and og than I am about your romanticized view of barbaric tribes. Today is today. Live in the here and now. Talk about who once owned what land leads to war. The indians aren't getting back Connecticut and Massachusetts. They'll have to settle for the hundreds of millions of dollars they make every year at Foxwoods. If they want to go fishing or hunting where the air and water are pure, they can take a vacation to Montana or Alaska.
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Rob
And in Palestine?Complain about this comment
marcus
At least Jack was telling the truth about his abilities you however think you know a little about it when what you know is little.
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347 so why do you not stop your government selling, strike that, GIVING bombs to the Israeli's
War always happens because Idiots like you make it happen. A pathetic response.or is that apathetic.
I will call you whatever I like without remorse if that is your attitude.
Remember to some WAR is going over for a game of Cricket and if you loose you loose that bit of contested land.
OK maybe not Cricket but you get the point.
No Maverick missiles, no clusterbombs, no white phosphorous .
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333 Kiki I doubt MA has heard the words before.
Though I am not sure what planet he lives on.
347 We created crap in the middle east we should be involved enough to leave it in just as crap a state as before we got there not as a burning ruin.
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Why, is some people surprised at this, after all it is as it was planned to be. let me say it more plainly. Those who try to please everyone, please no one. Tolerance to all is reckless and evil. Is not telling the truth a lie
if you said nothing? 12,000 dollars for a family of 4 in a society of 200 million people works out quite nicely to about 700 or so billion dollars, and that money is a forgone conclusion already. what is he saying now ? that another 800 billion will be spent and given to others on your account and in the meantime we blame one another and look to see who should not be an american by birth.
Excluding obama I mean because he is the president who could not recite the oath on tv.
get ready to eat crow America. remember the seven skinny cows and the seven fat ones?(old testament). could you recall what your forefathers (some) did to their slaves?
no, right? because you were not the ones who did it. neither did I when Adam ate the apple. but yet I sinned.
just don't be too quick to kill that mexican you may need to visit mexico. and have friends. hey it's just my comment.
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seanpmc1
I think you must kid yourself.
I love the way some start here by saying things in defence of Israel. But claim later they were not and care nothing of the outcome.
Going on about V1 and rockets with out mentioning the huge bombs dropped no less randomly (except they were guided to their random target) by Isreal is a load of crud.
And Bias, If you cared little I am sure you would not have said what you said because you would have said nothing.
PS I like some of what you say just for the record.
but, back to calling you a warmonger because you are.
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352 I have to laugh WITH you here.
Union boys do not get all the money as some suggest,. Normally those who make 80$ plus an hour are the ones complaining, because they think they are so "educated" they should get more money.
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Tea time for the mods? Hope you are having a hob nob with it. I've been told it's very tasty.
re: 292 robloop,
I'm afraid I don't share your perceptions of a "leftist" US media. The "mainstream" media outlets were almost shamelessly cheerleading the Iraq invasion.
The criticism started once it became evident Rumsfeld et al. had no endgame, other than some wishful thinking about establishing a democracy in a country which had none of the the necessary prerequisites (and a country which was, furthermore, utterly devastated by looting and destruction after the fighting under the eyes of US troops, who were ordered not to interfere).
The decision to invade will always be contentious. The incredible cock-up made by GWB's Administration of the post-war reconstruction is almost universally recognised.
All I have time for, for now.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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353 did MA (sorry don't really read them anymore) say Andre rieu was an annoying watse of airwaves, because if he did .I Am in FULL AGREEMENT .;)
350 Mostly wrong.
What did the Israeli's do to offend you now, not kill enough babies?
After all you used to promote all attacks on anyone but the Israeli's.
Glad to see an even handed approach. Maybe we should.
But first offer all those Palestinians refugee status here in the states.
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#340. MarcusAureliusII: "I depend on skilled IBEW electricians to build my designs . . . Glad you have at least one skill of value to society."
Why not enlighten us and reveal what it is you design and allow us judge whether your own skill is of value to society.
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#349
Where is the evidence for WAR?
They haven't "proved" any of it. But genetic research is showing that in the eastern side of Ireland there is a lot of commonality between the Irish there, and the Spanish, which lends credence to the "Myth" of the Milisien invasion.
The Vikings however, are a "known" factor.
From Wikipedia...
"Genetic research also shows a strong similarity between the Y chromosome haplotypes of males from northwestern Spain and Irish males with Gaelic surnames,[7] with a sizeable difference between the west and the east of Ireland, in that much of those from the west owe less of their DNA to Anglo-Saxon and Scandinavian populations. Genetic marker R1b reaches frequencies as high as 98% in northwestern Ireland and 95% in southwestern Ireland,"
"Did you not get the freedom fighter first in the is tale were the Pro England people of Ireland."
I will have to admit Bias in this situation. IMO Northern Ireland is not Ireland. Therefore I have never studied them. I know they have some kind of Holiday that has something to do with "Orange", but thats about it.
I also know that my G.G. Grandfather came over here from Londenderry in the 1870's. he didn't come because of the potato famine, he came because of the government. I'm not positive, but I believe Londonderry is in Northern "Ireland"...
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"You marry people, right?"
That was the original reason for becoming ordained, yes. To Marry and Bury people like myself, who have no "Religous" beliefs, but still have "Spiritual" beliefs. I also do Hospice occasionally, when someone like myself is needed.(Usually by people of my generation)
At the time, I had already been studying the different Theologies and philosophies of the world for several years. A close friend of mine with terminal cancer wanted to Marry his longtime Girlfriend before he died. His beliefs were very similar to my own, so that is when I started looking into what it took, legally, to Marry someone. Thus, I became a legally Ordained Minister.
No, I didn't get it off the internet, but I did get it from the people you are implying. There is no Deist Church, so it was/is impossible for me to become ordained any other way.
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I think Roberts botched it on purpose the first, televised time. Now a truly historical clip, that of the first black president being sworn in, wont be played over and over again as it should have because of Roberts' poor performance (I sincerely hope he is better than this as judge)
About Obama's religiosity, bible or no bible, with or without prayers, Obama has already started doing the right thing: permitting stem cell research and transplants is the first step towrds a more tolerant, progressive America
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357 wow me and marcus against the"tin knocker".
well Sorry marcus there is a clause in my brain that says agree with war monger tin knocker before you.
just cause you get so much wrong.
I used to work in dairy plant production doing probably v similar work to Sean(tig ss).
Though I doubt his moral basis of' it's not killing me so no worries it's just a war', I doubt he can do that job if he were as unthinking as you.
Tig takes calm hands.
And as long as your boss is not a jerk can keep you calm.
And some discipline.
well marcus I have to say"go back to school,you fool"
and from "tin knocker 1" to "tin knocker 2"
Think about what I said above.
War may be common as muck but that does not mean I am going to join those that will say it is OK as long as it is far away.
War is not there to advance humans.
As for tin Knockers, oh well this is a piece of angle Iron
http://nw-arts.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=116
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ps sean I think I see your side now.
war happens get over it?
I would strongly disagree with that.
Fights happen.
War takes planning.
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ref #339
Unions are not good they are extortive groups that don't always do the best job.
Why do you think they are pushing so hard to get rid of the secreat ballot.
Because most workers know men like George Meany and Robert Poli were parasites.
I regret that I was not old enough to walk through a Meany picket line. I would have loved walking right over him. Then suing the AFL-CIO when he tried to stop me.
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#255
Bennet,
There is no effort to dismember religion in the US, quite the opposite, almost everyone is keen to encourage it. However, there is a strong backlash against those who feel that religious freedom is the freedom to legislate your views and prevent others from holding theirs.
That isn;t an attack on religion, it is an attack on intolerance. Something Jesus had a few things to say about.
Devout Sam
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I can confirm that seanpmc1 is nothing to do with me.
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President Obama admitted his mistake and got it right the second time. The BBC needs to admit its mistake in refusing to support an appeal for Palestinian civilians caught in the crossfire between Israel and Hamas. The BBC should remember its was not set up to protect Israeli sensitivities but to provide an impartial British news service. The people of Gaza deserve all our support for the horror that the violence has put them through. Other broadcasters have recognised this truth - will the BBC?
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well for one i agree that no one should swear on the bible but i dont care if you are the president or the poorest person of the world all men need the father above and his HOLY word! especially if its in the white house! let the word direct our country
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360 Ed Iglehart
Well, Ed, the Muslim/Arab hoards came out of Saudi Arabia, invaded the land that had once been the Land of Israel and captured Jerusalem in 638 AD. Most of the Jews, but not all, had been driven out of their land by the Romans after the Romans sacked Jerusalem in 70 AD and then finally over-ran Masada in 73 AD.
In effect, the Jews were displaced and dispossessed. The Jews then returned to reclaim what had once been theirs and in the process many Arabs were displaced and dispossessed, although I know that some of their property was bought.
Now life is being made uncomfortable for Arabs whose families once lived in what was once was known as Palestine, but never established as a country, and in 1948 became Israel. The Israelis gave Palestinian Arabs the choice to stay and live among them, and some did, but the majority, banking on all the Arab countries together defeating the Jews and driving them into the sea, left and waited for the defeat of the Jews, but instead the Arab armies lost, leaving the Palestinians without a home. The Arab world owes them something, but chooses to leave them in limbo and like a festering sore that suites their agenda. A cruel 'game', but that is how it is.
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Late checking in today. Lucky me.
The Jews and Arabs have been fighting for millinnia. They'll be at it when we're all dead, so I'll wait for another topic.
(Waving to friendly people, I exit the forum....)
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#365
"I love the way some start here by saying things in defence of Israel. But claim later they were not and care nothing of the outcome."
If you are referring to what I said about not putting up with it as long as they did, that was not a statement meant to defend Israels actions. That statement meant exactly what it said.
I am not a War monger, but neither am I anti-War, especially if the War is justified. In my opinion, the last war that America was justifiably involved in was WWII.
As for the incident with the twin towers, going after those resposible was justifiable as far as i'm concerned, but they should have stopped with that. I find it hard to believe that with todays technologies they haven't been able to find Bin laden. One deep penetrating nuclear bomb would be enough to turn whatever mountain cave he's hiding in into a Tomb.
WWII was about ridding the world of a true menace that would eventually have affected us all. Every War since then has been purely for Political or Monetary purposes, IMO, and those are not justifiable reasons to go to War.
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376 chronophobe
You did well to remind me of that initial Iraq invasion "cheerleading" by the media. I guess there was for a while a post-9/11 after-glow.
Apart from what you've said, I believe that disaffection also set in when it was realized that while General Tommy Franks had a great invasion plan, he had absolutely no plan for what should occur thereafter. And he had no plan for dealing with insurgency, part of that due to Iraqi exiles assuring Bush and others they would be welcomed as liberators. In retrospect the planning was haphazard to put it mildly, with no contingency planning.
I reckon that "post war re-construction" became almost impossible in such a volatile circumstance. Only after David Patraeus arrived did matters become reasonably stabilized. One could say that never before had an occupying force run into circumstances faced by the U.S. and its coalition allies. Open borders all round to hostile neighbours did not help.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#307, I would prefer Monaco to Las Vegas
because the taxes are lower and the
women are more expensive.
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Sean's Dadf,
but do you accept my apology for confusing you with him?;-)
ed
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"Bible not required. But it certainly is a statement of how he will toss long held values aside, as well as allow others to toss unwanted babies aside."
Yo-ho-ho.
I'll not make the obvious response.
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MA2nd:
"seanpmc1 #343, that's nothing. I can trace my ancestry back to the amoeba."
Obviously.
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Re magic
"I can trace my ancestry back to the amoeba"
it seems you have yet to eveolve from your ancestral state.
Explains a lot
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370 half of Wales are related to those guys that came off the armada as well(sorry know that may be a bit high;))
Nah, to be true , even earlier sea faring people have migrated around and it's just a matter of travel.
At one time there was land all the way to Ireland from Spain.No war involved.
That could be taken to prove the opposite to your war based hypothesis of gene mingling.
or be taken to prove nothing other than holiday sex has always been popular.
There are stories in the myths of settling the americas as well. I don't know.Seems pretty plausible to me.I do not think those myths mention warring.
I do know that war was not always the way. People traded.
People in isolated areas shagged strangers to get something (it ended up being genes).
I mention the history earlier to point out that the situation is in fact similar to Israel , just over a longer period of time.
It is at time most confusing.
but the times are the 1600's
a real power play for the control of the British Isles ,This catholic that protestant.
But the end result was the ruling class of Ireland getting kicked out of the northern part by a bunch of protestants. They held out against a 4-5 year siege and were re supplied after that time, Finally by some Cloggy who had come to England to show that Catholic where to go, or rather that the people didn't want the pope running things via his french consort of a king.
Mr French loving James who had hid out in France for a couple of years after being sent packing by William of Orange.
Anyway I digress , they held out for years .
A plucky few against the might of the Catholics . Then once helped old will the guy now in England(and scootlan) went over to Kick some catholic but.
yea. huraah.
Rich peasant beating catholics. Kicked in the but told to pack it. the battle of the Boing;)
England with its dutch partners brought you the freedom to not be catholic.
Doesn't give anyone the excuse to kill anyone these days . I just love the way american Irish think.
or not.
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377 We realised. I had to jump in . I think he should change his name to something else but have no fear. I suspect he is not that bad a chap really.
I just like goading americans on their "irish" ancestry . To see if they really appreciate the reason there or the history.
Having seen the less than nice side of american feelings in that direction.
Which are often most confused.
And contradictory .
I also find it funny because Eire was until recently pretty oppressive to the young. They had not condoms in the pubs, and a holiday to England was out of the question if you were pregnant and might seek an abortion.
There were reasons other than the bad Brits (who were next door)that kept the population there so old as the youth left.
A bunch of oppressive catholic doctrine that was ignored elsewhere applied in Eire.
That and the IRA knee capping you for selling hash.
All those from Eire I knew understood this.
No one from the states did.
Plus the parallel to Gaza is there.
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378. At 10:37pm on 24 Jan 2009, hurrahforjohicks I'll second that.
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#370. seanpmc1: " IMO Northern Ireland is not Ireland."
Then what is it? It was an integral part of the Irish Free State, albeit for a very short period before it opted out and decided to revert to being a part of the United Kingdom. To say that the residents of Northern Ireland are not Irish is among the more stupid things seen on this blog - did your G. G. Grandfather consider himself Irish? If so, then why should you think anything to the contrary?
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380 but if that is the case we could be justified in now arming Gaza and the west bank with the latest,helping them kick some Israel but take their land back and sanction any Israeli from getting a job or eating. Just because hell crap happens.
Ah So what your saying is if we all give our money to them terrorists,(maybe buy some military fighter bombers to give them. )or let the other arab nations get enough weapons, hell Egypt has some Saudi got a bit, to help them and stand back to watch it happen. arm them all and see who wins(opps Israel would scorch earth all with nukes as they do on a small scale when they leave a settlement. they leave no buildings either.)
It all good .
So everyone that supports Gaza should just give to the terrorists to help then?
like those stern terrorist of exodus days.
can I labour this point more.
PS were not those on Masada terrorists.
worse than that the story everyone idolises is the one where when the romans got there they had all died in a koolaid party.
Sound like a bunch of lefties to me.left wing communist terrorist scum. not hero's surely?
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Rob, It all depends on when you start...
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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BillieLuvsGOD,
Slight problem with allowing the Bible to direct this country... The problem is that it can be interpreted a zillion different ways by different readers. I'm not the only one to note this catch. Most of it is allegory and descriptions of times long gone, that makes it difficult to be sure you've got it right.
In the end, we just have to trust the judgment of the people we elect into office.
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lasthurrah #378
You forgot so soon? The Palestinians voted for Hamas and Hamas did exactly what they promised they would. The problem for them? They didn't get the outcome they expected. They thought it would turn out the other way around. Now they want sympathy and charity. They'll get neither from me. Instead, they continue to pay the penalty for being stupid as well a cruel and inhuman, firing thousands of rockets at Israeli civilians. Fortunately most of them missed. They do this because the wall Israel built, much to the outrage of Europe, was relatively successful at excluding their suicide bombers who were much more effective at killing Israeli civilians.
MagicKirin, you are wrong. Were it not for the American labor movement, socialism or even communism might have had a chance to take hold in America. But because of the rights that labor won, capitalism was always safe here even in the depths of the depression when many had doubts. You should read Sinclair Lewis' classic "The Jungle." You are correct about excesses of unions and corruption. That was taken up in Robert Kennedy's book "The Enemy Within." Fascinating read about the investigation of the McClellan committee and Robert Kennedy's war against the Mafia both as a senator and later as Attorney General. Some theorize that is why his brother was assassinated. (Robert Kennedy was assassinated by Sirhan Sirhan, a Palestinian terrorist in 1968 in a hotel kitchen in Los Angeles California. Had he not been, it is likely he would have been elected President later that year. Sirhan still rots in prison in California where he will stay until he dies.)
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382
Sean Ok I'll let off a little ,you seem to recognise war is not the ideal(but remember this. when you mention the bombs in the UK remember the more recent events.
(hitler v1 was nothing compared to the blitz before ,the destruction of europe and the killing of so many(of all faiths))
People with a grasp of Irish history like yours so far seems gave money to pay for bombs that exploded both in N.Ireland, and the UK.
Americans funded that war and arab terrorists.
As sonicboomer points out elsewhere none were extradited on terrorism charges.
The Brits did not respond to croos border mortars with the airforce.
so your comment about V1 has little relevance even you would admit that the brits did not go to germany to stop the rocket attacks.
But the Irish situation is much closer to t he truth or the situation here, and the Brits DID NOT BOMB DUBLIN.
"If you are referring to what I said about not putting up with it as long as they did, that was not a statement meant to defend Israels actions. That statement meant exactly what it said."
I do contest that that statement is blatantly not true.
I think the ban here should be people saying that "no one else would put up with this for this long"
this has been said so many times it is sickening.
It was used to justify the MURDER of over a thousand people.
And now the spineless BBcC is showing that it is bias by not taking the appeal from the charities in the UK.
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ref #385
Whats fair is for an independent businessman to cho0se if we want to work with Union or non uinon workers.
I have a problem waiting for lazy Union people to get off their butts at a convention center to move a box 1o yards or put up a display I could do myself.
And the fact you condone knee caping someone who would cross a picket line demonstates the thuggery of unions.
Why should my business be affected by your pickets.
Scabs do better work anyway.
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382 seanpmc1
I quote you: "Every War since then (i.e. WW11) has been purely for Political or Monetary purposes, IMO, and those are not justifiable reasons to go to War."
I see, so under United Nations auspices Western countries, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand and Turkey responding to North Korea (spurred on by China and the Soviet Union) invading South Korea was
"purely for Political or Monetary purposes"?
Pardon me for being so blunt, but that is a load of "horse manure".
In 1954 Vietnam through international treaty was partitioned into North and South, but the north wanted the south to fall under its communist rule, so (egged on by China and the Soviet Union) it's agents infiltrated the south and subverted those it could. It then sent in North Vietnamese regular army troops to take over the country.
President John Kennedy sent in first advisors and then U.S. troops to assist this U.S. ally. In 1965 units of the U.S. cavalry fought a series of battles in the Ia Drang Valley, South Vietnam, against NVA troops that had invaded South Vietnam down the Ho chi Min Trail.
Was U.S. action not justified in such a circumstance? And what "Political and Monetary" benefit did it gain there? The armaments industry no doubt benefitted and that no doubt stimulated the economy, but that aside I think you need to read more and ignore propaganda, before making the statements you have.
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seanpmc1, there are from my perspective two advantages to hiring union shops over non union shops and it's true, the non union shops charge only marginally less if that and have a much higher profit margins.
1. You know you are getting skilled labor because the journeymen have gone through a well structured apprenticeship program. When union workers screw up, it's because they don't give a damn. They knew exactly what they were doing. It's relatively rare but it does happen. They know when I've caught them, they're caught and they have to do it over again. On the rare occasions it happens, I don't have to tell them a second time. With non union labor, you take a big gamble. A non union shop may have one or two "aces" but often the others are mediocre or worse and need close supervision. That is why major industry in America relies almost exclusively on union trade labor while small businesses and frame home construction can get away with non union labor. The small or simple jobs are usually all they can handle. When managers get a bright idea that they will hire non union workers to save money, the union labor knows they will eventually be brought back to clean up the havoc that will be created. They have a saying; "pay me now...or pay me later." Happens all the time.
2. Unions have a virtually limitless supply of labor. They can call down to the union hall for as many journeymen as a job needs and when they exhaust the pool in their own jurisdiction, they can import more from others. Non union shops have only their regular employees. If they need more help because they have more business than they can handle, they might put an ad in the newspaper and hope...or get Joe's kid who's off school on summer vacation and needs to make a few extra bucks. Hey kid, you know which end of a screwdriver is the handle? Good, tomorrow morning at 7AM you're an electrician. Watch houses being built. Kids, illegal aliens who don't even speak English, anything goes. You never know what you will get.
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Duh. If the concern is to remove religious belief from the inauguration ceremonies, the presence of a Bible for the oath is surely secondary and incidental to the very use of an oath that is by definition a call to God as a witness.
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#392
"I think he should change his name to something else"
Already thought of that, but couldn't figure out how to do it.
---------------------
#394
"Then what is it?"
Kind of like a donor organ.They donated themselves to Britain... ;-)
"did your G. G. Grandfather consider himself Irish? "
Very Irish. Both he, and my other immigrant Grandfather on the paternal side sent money back to Ireland to help fight for Irelands freedom. The Grandfather from Waterford Cnty. even had that fact mentioned in his obituary. I have a copy of it, so I know that for a fact.
I don't think the IRA existed at that time, so whatever anti-Brit organisation was extant in the late 1800's was who was getting the money.
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David Cunard #369
No secret. I'm an electrical engineer. I design power distribution systems, lighting, communications networks, anything related to electrical construction. I've also been a project manager, a construction manager, and a project director. I may have built the facility that created much of the technology in the computer you are sitting at right now when I worked in Silicon Valley...and the communications technology used to connect it to the rest of the world including mine. I worked for a time for the largest research consorteum in the world. And for three of the twelve years I was there...I was their chief electrical engineer. Now what do YOU contribute to society to justify your existance. BTW, I highly value contributions by highly skilled people like seanpmc1, even if our political views don't agree. In some of my roles, my success depends on the skills of people like him and I am always aware of it. What does your success depend on besides lots of hot air, bluff, fluff, and bluster?
Right now I'm working on the engineering design of facilities that develop and manufacture drugs that may one day save your life. How about that. You may spout off for years and years longer than you ever would in part if I do my job well. That thought has not inspired me to quit to find a more mundane job though.
At least I accept that I am descended from an amoeba. What do you think you are descended from, something created by the inventor of the universe in his own image? And do you also delude yourself god was British the way so many others seem to? Milk in tea, how disgusting! Yeech!
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#403 MAII
I used to be staunchly anti-union, after being forced to pay $40/week of my meager, grocery-bagger salary one summer while in high school.
Then I got "educated" after college, when working for a govt. contractor that did everything it could to disempower a highly educated, skilled workforce when new management took over. They used dirty tactics and subtle intimidation on a captive workforce far from a metropolitan area w. other job options to beat down an unionization drive.
As a result, the quality of work deteriorated, the knowledgeable and skilled left, and the resultant staff have to be told exactly how to do every single step of their jobs, with constant oversight.
BTW, while I agree w. you here, your personal insults in post #279 were uncalled for. And, as I studied Am. Colonial History w. a focus on Indian Relations for my Masters program, I might just have a bit more expertise in this field... neither Wahunsonnacook nor John Smith were saints...
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Squirrelpost:
"We think it's time a lot of people here had a nice sit down with a cup of tea and some biscuits.
Instead of getting up on their hind legs and demonstrating so effectively how humans can manage to hate each other so much and offer so many 'reasons' and 'excuses' for it.
Especially when the religion so many proclaim is supposed to be against just that."
The squirrels' proposal to that potato crisp company for 'sour human' flavour crisps was turned down.
And they thought since there were so many around here, it'd be quite popular. They even suggested putting little sachets of blood in the packets, you know, like those little ketchup ones in fastfood places, to add to the appeal.
By the way, does anybody know if you can get 'acorn chip' biscuits?"
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MagicKirin, are you joking? Want to talk about lazy? Executives who are of course non union can't even make themselves a cup of coffee. They need a secretary to do it for them. I'll bet a lot of them don't even know how. Do you think their wives don't do it at home for them too? Why do you think there are so many divorces in America. And look at how these grossly overpaid incompetents ran their companies into the ground. Instead of being fired...they got bonuses...and sometimes at taxpayer expense. Don't complain about a few sheckles been thrown the way of people who actually work for a living when golf course execs screw up and then rake in the gravy. Face the real world. I've watched these people up close for decades and they are no better than anyone else...except at stealing shareholder money. Now why do you think the world is bankrupt?
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408 Squirrel
You are living in the dark ages with all that oak.
Have you heard of what is called the filbert here but what you might have heard of as the Hazelnut?
A classy, more Nobby nut that will put fluff on your tail.(Not putting down the acorn humble and great acorn,of course,such rustic charm)
I think you should know that through the cat flaps all over a veritable treasure trove of fine nuts can be found this time of year is a good time to "pull a starver "in the window, maybe get some christmas bounty. them humans are only good at cracking peanuts;)
If you ca get some of them lovely fatty macadamia nut oak cookies., They're a treat.
I know move to the states get all look at what we have , but the Hazels are local you should be able to get them in a "cookie" . now there's the problem.
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405 And you never gave to the organisation then, just your old ancestors ?
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Ref 408 british-ish
I hear squirrels will just leave of their own accord if you spread mothballs around the area in which they frolic.
Someone mentioned earlier that the President-elect should take the oath with a hand on a box of McVities. I found some chocolate-covered Digestives today on my biscuit quest. I will be happy to swear on them.
Maybe a nice sit-down with tea and biscuits could bring peace to the world. Nobody would be hurt giving such a thing a try.
Disperse the squirrels! Dunk biscuits! Find world harmony.
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397 Ed IgleHart
I hope you won't consider this a kind of one-upmanship, but I just checked and it seems that the Jews arrived there after the exodus from Egypt, about 1,300 B.C. About the rest I believe you are right. The first revolt against Rome began in 66 AD and ended with the Roman sacking of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The second revolt, that ended with the dispersing of Jews all over the Roman Empire, occurred in 133 AD.
(Happylaze, I think you would have liked those Jews back then. They were a rebellious lot and the most troublesome of Roman subjects. They liked their freedom).
As a matter of interest, over the years the Iraelite exodus from Egypt has been questioned by skeptics, most of all their crossing of the Red Sea and destruction of the Egyption Army when the waters closed behind the Israelites who it was pursuing, but in 1978 an archeologist, Ron Wyatt with the aid of modern under-water cameras found remains of the Egyptian Army at the bottom of the Red Sea. King Solomon long after that placed columns at the site to commemorate the crossing, and these were found by Wyatt, but in more recent times the Saudi authorities removed the columns that had on them old Phoenician (archaic Hebrew) inscriptions.
I wish it were possible to attach here photos of the discoveries that were sent to me.
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"It was used to justify the MURDER of over a thousand people."
So the killing of Hamas terrorists is MURDER ? I think not. If Israel had been left alone and not attacked by genocidal maniacs backed by Iran, then Gaza would not be in the state it is now. When one thinks of the billions of dollars of aid poured into Gaza and to what purpose ? To fund schools where young children are taught to hate Jews, to dig tunnels for weapons smuggling, to endlessly fire rockets at civilian targets in Israel. If only Hamas loved their children as much as they hated Jews then peace might have a chance.
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Ref 401 MagicKirin
People are more productive in their work when those charged with directing them have well honed communication and leadership skills.
How keen you keep your tools reflects how well the job gets done.
Have a sit down with some biscuits and tea.
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412 publiusdetroit wrote:
"I hear squirrels will just leave of their own accord if you spread mothballs around the area in which they frolic."
I'm not at all surprised. They've made it perfectly clear here they're against torture, and that includes of moths.
Statement from the Squirrel Party:
The depth of depravity to which humans will sink (of which this is yet one more example in a depressingly long list in their history) in seeking to displace even their own species, or emasculate those of others they don't agree or cannot get on with, never ceases to amaze them.
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"But the Irish situation is much closer to t he truth or the situation here, and the Brits DID NOT BOMB DUBLIN."
The stupid IRA/Hamas comparison is a joke for several reasons...
1) The Irish people did not vote into power a genocidal terrorist group whose avowed goal was the destruction of Britain
2)The IRA did not have a desire to spread their belief system to the entire globe.
3) The IRA were not launching rockets in their thousands from south of the border
4) The IRA were not pawns used by a nation state intent on destroying Britain (as Hamas are by Iran)
5)The IRA were not the government of Eire
One could go on and on but those who get it , get it - those who don't by now will never understand.
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Guys, I may have a solution to the whole Israel thing, but I don't think anyone would go for it, since the USA would have to act as "world cop" and use some cowboy diplomacy.
Basically, tell the Jews they have to cease all combat and allow the Islamics to move back. They need to make higher density housing to allow the population of both sides to mix as it was supposed to. Personally, if I were God, I'd disapprove of the whole thing. God said "Thou shalt not kill", which part of it didn't both sides misunderstand? If they refuse or go back on the deal, the USA immediately ceases ALL forms of aid, the whole kit and caboodle. This means Israel won't survive long without America's aid.
As for Islam in the area, you do the same thing the USA did with Japan, that is, trade like mad with them. If ANYBODY touches the Jews, the USA comes down on them like a ton of bricks. If you think Israel was bad, watch the US get ticked! My home country has a rather nasty rep for getting medieval at times, just ask Japan....
Problem is, you'd need a US President with some serious willpower, as you know there'll be LOTS of protests. Moreover, the USA has to be willing to wash their hands of the whole Middle East nonsense if Israel goes back on their word.
All of this is just an idea, and a seriously unlikely one at that. But it seems that both sides will only listen to brute force, because any other way just seems to prolong the killing. We have to be willing to put up or shut up, if this is to end.
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414.vivaelcid
Something fundamental -- the basic fallacy of your argument -- appears to escape you. The death of any human being caused deliberately by any other is 'murder'.
If societies at times choose to close their eyes to it and condone it or worse, promulgate it, it still doesn't change it.
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Ref 401 robloop
One of the many questions I have regarding the exodus is where did the wandering tribes get all that gold they used in casting graven images of Baal?
Slaves do not get a paycheck.
Another question is; having witnessed first hand something as marvelous as the parting of the Red Sea by their one true God which saved them their very lives, why did the Israelites keep back-sliding into the Canaanite worship of Baal as they wandered in the desert?
That seems a rather mean and ungrateful behavior.
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When I took my oath as a commissioned Officer in the US Army, we were expected to know and understand the oath prior to the administration of the oath, which was done in front of our Parents and the flag. To my knowledge every Pastor in town spoke prior to the cermony, along with our Congressman, all invoked God on our behalf.
Our mother's then pinned our actual rank on our uniforms. We were new 2nd Lieutenants now.
As we left the ceremony the first enlisted man who saluted us was saluted and given a silver dollar to mark the occassion.
At a commissioning ball that night our fiancees/girlfriends put our sword belts around our waistes from right to left, repeating the phrase" the hopes and dreams of Freedom loving people everywhere go with you" . Then taking the actual Sabre in their gloved hands they kissed the blade and handed it to their Lieutenant, who brought it to the salute position and placed it in the scabbard. Everybody spent the night dancing and all the ladies (yes, we were expected to date ladies, not just women) wore the large gowns that looked like something from a wedding or the old South, the Officers and Senior NCOs wore dress blues.
The whole point. We all took our responsibilty to the Constitution and Country very seriously and nobody, not the Officers, the Mothers , the Pastors and certainly not the officers being commissioned would have dreamed in participating in something so important as an oath to possibly give your life, without invoking God and practicing your part so you don't humiliate yourself in public. This is what the new Commander-in-Chief was doing, whether he realised it or not. When you take such an oath, you should be able to do it without reservation, a teleprompter or a Chief Justice to tell you what to say. Very second rate.
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Question: what does all this stuff have to do with the original thread?
The constitution of the United States does not have an oath, any mention of a bible or details of an inaguration. It merely states that on 12:00 noon on January 20th the term of one president would end and the next would begin. Thats it. We dont even need to inagurate him. We already elected him. Inagurations started as an afterparty to the election and somehow worked its way up to being the main event. I was so glad that all the lawnmower guys marched in the parade. Wow I wish I had thought of that I have a lawnmower!
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"In the Obama White House it was no big deal. Religious beliefs for him are essentially"...nonexistent
No surprise. Obama used the Lincoln Bible because no "Obama Family Bible" exists. They are Muslim after all.
Also, although his relationship with the infamous rev. Wright is well-known for "bringing me to Christ." Obama has never mentioned ever being baptized
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#406. MarcusAureliusII: "David Cunard #369 - No secret. I'm an electrical engineer. I design power distribution systems, lighting, communications networks, anything related to electrical construction."
Ah - a learnt occupation requiring no artistic judgement or ability. Useful of course, as a ditch-digger would be, but of no lasting importance to humanity.
Since you are occupied with electricity, couple that with your dislike of Europeans and consider how important they were in the development of electrical engineering. Where would you and your colleagues be without Volta, Ampere, von Siemens, Tesla, Galvani and of course, Faraday? They and others like them made it possible for your work - and are remembered for it, as well as the nations of their birth.
"Now what do YOU contribute to society to justify your existance."
I was tempted to answer "nothing" since no-one has to justify their place on earth; however, that would be untrue. My life has been involved with the Arts, both as a performer and a producer. Suffice it to say my work has been that of discovering and restoring America's musical past and for the latter I was nominated for one of the most prestigious awards the Recording Industry has to offer, indeed the first Briton to receive such recognition. Beyond that I was trained as an actor and worked in Britain and then "Hollywood", toiling away in a production which ran for a great many years. So I amused the public, making them happier I hope, and made it possible for future generations to enjoy performances previously thought lost. Many of these were made before the advent of computerised sound restoration, for which I later used a German application, there being no other which was affordable. I was required to purchase a Wintel machine in order for it to work - not the most reliable computer I've had.
#409: "look at how these grossly overpaid incompetents ran their companies into the ground. Instead of being fired...they got bonuses..."
The studio at which I worked was a case in point, the fair-haired boy was eventually dismissed but set up with a production company which, having spent millions of dollars, failed. The gentleman was originally an attorney but who thought he had artistic ability. He was wrong. For once Marcus and I agree with the point he makes.
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"Basically, tell the Jews they have to cease all combat and allow the Islamics to move back."
Why should the Israelis commit suicide just so you can boast about a final solution to the "Israel thing". Israel is a sovereign nation ...it is the only safe place for the world's Jews. The so-called Palestinians were actually just plain Arabs until 1967. The Palestinians should be absorbed into Egypt, Syria or Jordan...something which should have happened after the Arabs failed war against Israel in 1948.
"The death of any human being caused deliberately by any other is 'murder'."
Thus the shooting down of Luftwaffe bombers in WW2 was murder ? The killing of Waffen SS troops was murder ? The killing of someone about to behead your family is murder ? You seem to have invented a new dictionary just for yourself.
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424, Cunard,
"Ah - a learnt occupation requiring no artistic judgement or ability. Useful of course, as a ditch-digger would be, but of no lasting importance to humanity."
Do you really need to get so personal with him? Don't you think this is more than a mite disrespectful? Dammit man, learn some decorum willya?
Why can't people have a decent intellectual discussion without getting personal?
Sheesh!
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Ref 413 robloop
There is much doubt about the many "discoveries" Mr. Wyatt has claimed to have uncovered.Wyatt
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Having written what might be thought a mean comment on the professional abilities of MAII, it occurred to me that he is the incarnation of The Duchess from Alice in Wonderland, who sang:
Speak roughly to your little boy,
And beat him when he sneezes:
He only does it to annoy,
Because he knows it teases.
The last two lines apply particularly to him - and the first two, to the rest of us, with minor exceptions.
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#426. Jeebers76 : "Do you really need to get so personal with him? Don't you think this is more than a mite disrespectful? Dammit man, learn some decorum willya?"
We're grown-ups here, and I can give as well as I get. You might care to check the insults MAII has made to individuals, nationalities and entire continents before suggesting who is "disrespectful". He's in his seventh decade and is used to vilification.
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424, Cunard
If you are responsible for the trash on TV in Britain or the US or what has passed for music in he 20th and 21st Century, perhaps a learned trade would be a good use of your time.
We all are on the computer thanks to the outstanding artistic talent of the TV makers now days. As for the music they can't get people to buy it.
I was in Starbucks one day and I noticed that they were trying to give away free music download cards and couldn't, nobody wanted them.
I would rather watch any of the Humphrey Boart movies than what's on TV.
By the way as somebody who lived through Huricane Katrina, I can tell you, you never really appreciate a ditch digger or an electrical Engineer until those things cease to exist. Then you realise that they create civilization, along with Firemen, Cops, Soldiers, Nurses, Teachers, Ambulance Drivers, Carpenters and the truck driver who brings you your food.
One Army National Guardsman willing to risk his life to save your neighbors is more important than all the TV people in the world. We are lucky to be surrounded by real Heroes every day.
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425.vivaelcid wrote:
"You seem to have invented a new dictionary just for yourself."
I do not think so.
Call it 'justified homicide', 'targeted assassination', 'taking someone out', whatever you choose, whatever the dress, whatever the machinery, it's the same thing.
Same word.
Same deed.
Why is that simple word so uncomfortable?
Consider where your justifications lead. And where they have led in the past.
And not just in the past of a mere sixty or seventy years, either.
(And please do not fall back on the glib rejoinder of 'ah, but if you had ever been threatened or at risk'. . .As a psychiatric nurse once upon a time, in a secure hospital, caring for--the verb is not used casually--patients who had committed murder I have been.)
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430. politejomsviking
They also serve who only sit and watch? Or 'When Adam delved and Eve span/Ne'er was there then a gentle-man"?
Even the Neanderthals had art as well as clubs . . .
S'pose, since I have never wanted to join an army, I'll never get to be a hero then?
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425. vivaelcid wrote:
The so-called Palestinians were actually just plain Arabs until 1967. The Palestinians should be absorbed into Egypt, Syria or Jordan...something which should have happened after the Arabs failed war against Israel in 1948.
I have a proposal of equal validity, equally logical, for you to consider:
All Americans of non-native origin since 1607 (or 1592-ish) should leave and be re-absorbed into the countries of Russia, Eastern and Western Europe whence they came.
O,. alternatively, that all native Americans (being all 'Indians', as it were) should be 'absorbed' into, say, their 'brethren's' territories in Manitoba, Nova Scotia and so on.
Since by your criteria, they lost their wars against settlers of mainly European ancestry now in the majority.
Now try arguing that and see how far you get.
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#64, chronophobe a.k.a. cpinko,
I read with interest your mini-discourse.
You should be eligible for another degree
now!
Anyway, it occurred to me that one way
to look at the situation that the founders
faced at the time was that they were
opposed by political systems which were
backed by state religions. Somehow,
they had to legitimize their revolution
against one of these systems (the
British Empire) so that the common man
would not feel that he would go to
hell as a result.
By replacing the "Divine Right of Kings"
with "the voice of the people is the
voice of God," they were able to
neatly circumvent this problem.
The English had a similar problem
when they rebelled against the
Pope, so they had to invent their
own (Anglican) church.
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politejomsviking # 421
Nice description of your ceremonial investiture in becoming a 2nd lieutenant, and the commissioning ball afterwards, invoking flashbacks of Gone with the Wind and various John Wayne movies as I scroll through your prose.
Agreed that pledging one's honour to do ones duty to the best of your ability for your country is paramount at any and all levels of the service required, with, or as shown from earlier comments here, without the necessity to invoke any blessing from God, but I do feel though that you are being a little harsh on Obama.
If reading earlier news items concerning Obama's desires about becoming President are true, he had been rehearsing the inaugaration oath since he was 15 years of age and knew it off by heart. Unfortunately at his moment in time on the podium, his partner in a compulsory act did not follow the arrangement and fluffed his lines, causing Obama to fall out of step.
You come from a world of regimented discipline, a Nijinsky in a world where we mortals still stumble on the cracks in the pavement.
The spectators got a glimpse of their idol, which was after all the whole point for its production .
I expect Obama to be "en pointe" for future solo gravity defying performances.
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432
Yes, but even Neaderthal art seems superior to the junk on TV. If it wasn't for DVDs and video games my TV would be a paperweight.
You don't have to be a Soldier or Firefighter to be a heroe. The people who built your house, grew your food, ran the electricity to your home are too.
Let the electricity go out and see who you call first the power company or a performance artist.
Let a genocide occur somewhere in the world and see who your average lefty goverment requests first, Marines or a French Socialist Diplomat.
Get caught in a burning building and find out whos more important Paris Hilton or the Local Fireman.
Try it reality can be fun and exciting. Better yet help somebody else.
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# 394 David_Cunard wrote:
""#370. seanpmc1: " IMO Northern Ireland is not Ireland."
Then what is it? It was an integral part of the Irish Free State, albeit for a very short period before it opted out and decided to revert to being a part of the United Kingdom. To say that the residents of Northern Ireland are not Irish is among the more stupid things seen on this blog - did your G. G. Grandfather consider himself Irish? If so, then why should you think anything to the contrary?"
Re NI opting out of the Irish Free State - really? That isn't what I remember from history at school. As I recall, the Irish Free State was set up as a 26-county State, ie excluding the 6 counties of Northern Ireland.
As to whether Northern Ireland is Irish - some would say that that is what those people were bombing and shooting about for c 30 years. Obviously it is part geographically of the island of Ireland. Its political status is a separate issue - which hopefully has now been settled by the Belfast Agreement, which established that its future would be determined by the wishes of its inhabitants.
Oops - just had another look at Wikipedia. It appears that technically you're correct, according to this link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland.
It appears that NI was legally part of the Irish Free State for approximately 1 day, from 6-7 December 1922, after which they did indeed 'opt out'.
Live and learn!
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Viva
"Thus the shooting down of Luftwaffe bombers in WW2 was murder ? The killing of Waffen SS troops was murder ? The killing of someone about to behead your family is murder ? You seem to have invented a new dictionary just for yourself."
To answer, yes, yes and yes. Only in war and genuine self defense does murder become legal.
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Dublin John,
This is in accordance with the founding principles of both the UN and the League of Nations.Pity the same principle wasn't recognised when 2/3 of the population of Palestine rejected partition, but the wise (mostly European or European clients) imposed their 'solution' (scroll up)....I seem to recall another partition 'solution' about the same time, which resulted in even more displacement, dispossession and bloodshed,....now if I could only remember where....Ah! It was India/Pakistan, but that didn't involve a bunch of (mostly European) colonists - just a bunch of "natives"...
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
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"The English had a similar problem
when they rebelled against the
Pope, so they had to invent their
own (Anglican) church."
Guns, I think the English "rebellion" against the Pope was mostly the work of an overly indulging King...
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The truth is that both the Israelis and the Palestinians have a right to exist. Most importantly, they should share the same land as they did before the pathetic UN, under pressure from superpowers and the Zionist movement, decided to create the State of Israel to make ammends for the Holocaust, honor the deal made when the Zionists promised to influence the entry of the USA in WWI, and satisfy "divine rights".
Although the Palestinians never had full sovereignty over the land where they lived, their existance can be traced to the days of Hellenism, and it appears in Herodotus works where he refers to the region as Palaistine, and its inhabitants as Syrians of Palestine.
The Palestinian ethnicity is a mixture of the ancient Canaanites, Semitic people, Aramaeic Samaritans, and the Arabs that conquered the area in the 7th century. From an ethnic perspective there is more in common between the Palestinians and the Jewish people whose roots can be traced to this part of the world, than what separates them. That, of course, is not the case for the tens of thousands of Europeans Jews that flocked into Israel since 1948, and for whom expansionist policies are absolutely necessary.
Not surprisingly, the Zionists and our governments insists on dramatic differences, incompatible values, lack of national legitimacy, and ignore realities such as the existance of a large Christian minority in the Palestinian community to achieve their goals.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict since 1948 has not been a struggle to fight terrorism, it is ethnic cleansing carried out with the tacit endorsement of the UN under pressure from governments that a few decades ago labeled the Zionist movement as a terrorist institution.
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436 politejomsviking wrote:
432
Try it reality can be fun and exciting. Better yet help somebody else.
Don't patronise mejust because you disagree with me.
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trouble is american people only want to hear the official government lines or lies for world affairs to tell them what and how to think, anything that does not conform to this will cause extreme anger as they can not accept or contemplate anything contrary.
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436 politejomsviking:
The current French government (most recently involved first as the Presidency of the EU in a ceasefire in South Ossetia and latterly over Gaza) is not actually 'Socialist'. That party was defeated in the last election.
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#411
"405 And you never gave to the organisation then, just your old ancestors ?"
I'm only 40years old. By the time I was old enough to give a crap about world affairs like that, the situation in Ireland was pretty much over with.
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David Cunard
"Now what do YOU contribute to society to justify your existance."
"I was tempted to answer "nothing"
The truth from you for once? BUT--
"My life has been involved with the Arts, both as a performer and a producer."
You play a musical instrument? What instrument? Piano? How many cds/LPs have you been contracted for? Any concert tours? Can you play the Toccata and Fugue in D Minor? How about the Bussoni arrangement of the Chaconne? Kreisleriana? Chopsticks?
"Suffice it to say my work has been that of discovering and restoring America's musical past and for the latter I was nominated for one of the most prestigious awards the Recording Industry has to offer, indeed the first Briton to receive such recognition."
A regular Jean Marie Cantalaube of the American hinterland? Any arrangements or orchestrations to your credit or did you just make Leadbetter more palatable sitting at a mixing/editing board cleaning up old shellacs? Got any American Indian rain dances or war chants to your credit?
"Beyond that I was trained as an actor and worked in Britain and then "Hollywood", toiling away in a production which ran for a great many years."
Living life vicariously. The modern day equivalent of a court jester. "Life is but a stage, each of us playing his part."
"So I amused the public, making them happier I hope, and made it possible for future generations to enjoy performances previously thought lost."
We are not amused!
"Many of these were made before the advent of computerised sound restoration, for which I later used a German application, there being no other which was affordable."
Poor man. I did that too...with a tape deck, mixing console, a splice block, and splicing tape...when I was 15 years old.
"I was required to purchase a Wintel machine in order for it to work - not the most reliable computer I've had."
Ah, a luddite forced into the modern age to compete. You probably like LPs better than Redbook CDs too.
Yeah, when I was a kid, I banged on a piano, blew through a clarinet, thought about becoming a recording engineer or designing audio equipment. Then I learned there was far more interesting and challenging real work to be done in this world. Like ditchdigging.
You can belittle anyone's work Cunard. At least a ditchdigger can dig holes for septic tanks...and cesspools. Among their other uses they can be the final repositories...for exposed excuses of art created by people who thought they had talent and fooled others for awhile. Then again there are flea markets and garage sales to get them into people's basements, attics, and garages. Decades later they become landfill. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, mediocre recordings and TV shows to the city dump. You do Gilligan's Island? How about McHale's Navy? The Ginsu Knife or Vegematic infomercial? Chop! Chop!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
427 publiusdetroit
I didn't notice this posting earlier. Thanks for the attachment.
I'm not sure what to think of your revelation. On the one hand it cheeses me off thinking that maybe I got taken in, although the person who sent me this stuff would not have done so to deliberately mislead me. And then on the other hand I haven't a great deal of regard for many scientists who on the one hand seem a jealous lot when they aren't the discoverer of something new, and have proven themselves pretty dumb and sheep-like in regard to parrotting the same old popular bull about 'man-made global warming'. From what I've read, if you're in Detroit the last two winters are anything but part of global warming!
All the same, it seems that even biblical scholars question this Wyatt's 'findings'.
And to think that all this excitement might have been all for nothing!
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#448
Thanks Mod. The least you could have done was change what I said to "Buttocks", instead of wiping my whole post. Nicely done.
Last I looked, the word I referred to wasn't considered cussing, but I guess you Brits, or whoever it is that is Moderating this forum see it differently...
I would think your time would be better spent actually "Moderating" this continous argument that long ago left the bounds of the original subject.
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The anti-Christ lusts for control of the world. The Dark One's only enemies are seven monks sworn to Damien's destruction with sacred daggers forged for that one purpose. As the monks hunt Damien, he orders the systematic elimination of recently born boys, who he believes are the Second Coming of Christ. Will good or evil triumph?
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I wasn't even going to write anything else on this blog today, but...
You people calling Unions Lazy, and stating that the non-union outfits do the same quality work that we do are obviously ignorent of the subject you're trying to argue about. That, or you are getting your information second or third hand.
-------------------------
Stories of Union laziness, largely stem from outsiders that encounter us when we are on Break. We take our Breaks. No if, and's, or but's about it. If a project manager tries to make us do something while we are on break, he's just out of luck. If he tries to force the issue, he will find himself with a vital part of his work force walking off the Job, often taking the other Union trades on the job with us. A good PM knows how this works, a bad one tells everyone he comes across how "Lazy" we are....
If a non-union delivery driver shows up with a load for us, he waits until we are through with our break whether he likes it or not. If a Union delivery man shows up at break time, he knows the rules, and sets down with us until Break is over. That non-union driver will go out and tell everybody he knows that we refused to unload his truck, because we're "Lazy"...
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Quality. We are very highly trained at our jobs and "Craftsmanship" is pounded into our heads throughout our 5 years of apprenticeship. The training doesn't stop with becoming a Journeyman either. Advanced training is offered throughout our careers. All of us are trained and certified in Red Cross sanctioned Life saving Techniques.
Think about that when you walk by a Union jobsite and happen to have a heart attack on the sidewalk, or get hit while trying to cross the street in front of that job.
We may sometimes be slower than the non union outfits, but when we are done, you can be assured that it was done in strict accordance with the engineers that designed the project, and it was done to the best of our abilities as "Craftsmen".
-------------------------
Overpaid? In my area, we freeze and sweat our butts off for $50-60 thousand a year, so executives making 3 or 4 times as much as we make can set on their collective "Butts" (is that aceptable Mr. mod?) in a fully climate controlled
environment, doing little other than talk on the phone, or stand around the water cooler jabbering with their buddies.
------------------------
Union brutality? In my area, there is no such thing. It is all done through Political means. Our Unions feed political funds in order to get the people we want into Government. Big damned deal.
That happens all the time, Union or not. We are simply playing the same game that has been going on ever since Governments came into existence.
(Is that better Mr. moderator? I have seen you Mods let-slip worse comments than what I made in my previous attempt to post this.)
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re. 436. politejomsviking:
I have several degrees in the arts and humanities and I am in the process of wiring my basement. If the power goes out, I fix it. If the plumbing has a problem, I fix that too. I'm also good at carpentry and cabinetmaking. I have to be, I have an arts and humanities income. Let's not engage in worn-out stereotypes, okay? Real people are more complicated.
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427. At 06:48am on 25 Jan 2009, publiusdetroit wrote:
Ref 413 robloop
There is much doubt about the many "discoveries" Mr. Wyatt has claimed to have uncovered.Wyatt "
It is interesting to note t how this rubbish has gone down through the ages.
The empress Helena (Constatine's mother) was supposed to have found the true cross etc and loads of other relics - she asked where they were and amazingly local people were able to produce them.
There is practically no archaoelogical evidence for anything in the books in the bible.
Many were simply written for political purposes relevant at the time.
Unfortunately particularly in Israel archaeology has been hijacked to serve political purposes. A couple of years ago there was the farce of the Jesus box and nearly every week some ultra-zionist claims to have found David's palace.
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As important and dramatic as the changes in direction were this past week, and the symbolic importance of inviting the Republican leadership to the White House to discuss economic recovery strategies, I was most impressed with the lesson that our young and energetic new President learned after taking such a laudable position against the influence of lobbyists in American politics.
It clearly did not take our President long to learn the difference between idealism and reality. While I applaud his efforts to keep lobbyists out of government, and prevent government officials from immediately becoming lobbyists after leaving office, the unfortunate reality is that lobbyists and contractors are often the most qualified and most familiar with the intricacies of government functions, operations, and procedures.
Few of the appointments made thus far require the intimate level of the nuts and bolts of government operations as the Deputy Secretary of Defense who is responsible, among other things, for all the contracting and procurements made by the DoD. Bill Lynn is, clearly, among a handful of individuals (most of them lobbysts and contractors) uniquely qualified for the position and Secretary Gates was correct in impressing that fact on our new President.
The lesson to be learned from this is that instead of simplistic scenarios dominated by cowboys wearing black or white hats, there are also a lot of grays on the stage who often play as important a role as everyone else.
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re. 449. robloop:
What people don't seem to understand about global warming is that it has nothing to do with bad winters or hot summers. It is a gradual rise in average temperature over a period of decades. You will still have El Nino fluctuations that cause some years to be warmer or colder than others. The problem is that as the average temperature rises slowly a few degrees, you have massive changes in things like the melting of the polar ice caps, which has already been documented. Some of these changes, though barely noticeable in the daily weather fluctuations, have extremely serious implications for humans. The planet and biosphere will, in the end, adjust to accommodate these changes. They both work on geologic time scales. It's the impact on us humans that's the problem. We won't kill the planet, we'll just kill ourselves.
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Ref 449 robloop
I understand. I get lots of emails with attachments from good and trusted friends who are all excited by some crafty claim or sham story found on the internet. As a rule, I do some research on Snopes.com and Wikipedia before I forward these type of attachments to others.
The internet is such a fantastic tool; but it also has a lot of junk.
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re. 449. robloop:
Also, about archaeological and scientific discoveries: In both fields there is a professional vetting process. Things are published in professional journals and papers are given at professional conferences. In both settings, there are opportunities to challenge the writer or speaker, to require them to provide more evidence or explain flaws in their reasoning. I've given papers at professional conferences and gone through the questioning afterwards. Some of it is mean spirited, but mostly people just want to be reassured that you've done due diligence. Generally speaking, professionals in those fields don't accept "findings" or "discoveries" that haven't gone through that kind of vetting process. There is jealousy, certainly, but it's mainly a matter of wanting to see the evidence, especially if the "discovery" contradicts available evidence or current thinking.
When anyone, professional or amateur, rushes a "discovery" onto TV or into print in the popular press before going through that standard vetting process, there is a fair amount of skepticism. Professionals still want to see the evidence. There have been a number of scientific frauds or unsubstantiated claims made in the popular media in the last several decades. Everything from finding Noah's ark to tabletop fusion and the cloning of humans. The public goes for these things because they don't understand the vetting process. And the popular media fall for it because they're only after a good story.
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445
I'm the same age as you. There were bombs all my childhood(not in anyway traumatic they were in the news).There were bombs though.
Would I be right in saying you gave no money?I assume that is what you are saying but you were not very clear about it.
--------------------------------------
414"It was used to justify the MURDER of over a thousand people."
So the killing of Hamas terrorists is MURDER ? I think not. If Israel had been left alone and not attacked by genocidal maniacs backed by Iran, then Gaza would not be in the state it is now. When one thinks of the billions of dollars of aid poured into Gaza and to what purpose ? To fund schools where young children are taught to hate Jews, to dig tunnels for weapons smuggling, to endlessly fire rockets at civilian targets in Israel. If only Hamas loved their children as much as they hated Jews then peace might have a chance.
------------------------------------------
So the killing of Israelis(chances are they ARE soldiers given conscription(forced service)(worse than Hamas they ask for volunteers) is not murder either because they have killed some palestinians(a lot).
==============================to simplify things
"1) The Irish people did not vote into power a genocidal terrorist group whose avowed goal was the destruction of Britain"
Hamas vow is for a free palestine. the same for the irish . If we HAD bombed Dublin I am sure they would have felt that way.
"2)The IRA did not have a desire to spread their belief system to the entire globe."
really they were not trying to bring condomless catholic teaching to the north ?.
"3) The IRA were not launching rockets in their thousands from south of the border"
Oh but they did sent mortars,maybe not thousands, they also put bombs in public places and called in threats.
"4) The IRA were not pawns used by a nation state intent on destroying Britain (as Hamas are by Iran)"
they were pawns for thick headed dumb wanna be terrorist "irish"americans.
"5)The IRA were not the government of Eire"
but the gov of eire did contain terrorists and their supporters.
So shut up .
Know nothing.
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David_Cunard
My (UK born) mother devoted her life to Literacy and the Arts. At her 90th birthday party there were several young gorgeous actors who attended to pay tribute. (One drove six hours - Sasha Roiz. I believe he's in Hollywood now, maybe you could look him up and help his career.) The look on her face when Shakespeare's Sonnet 116 was recited to her by a great looking guy with a fabulous voice, will live in my memory forever.
After her death the Literacy group where she worked for years renamed their Library in her honour. An volunteer award was inaugurated. I just googled her and there are about eight listings. She changed people lives, contributed to society and her name lives on.
Can only imagine what she would think about this second oath business! (To mention the topic at hand.)
I regret she is not still with us. Although not as caustic as you, you two would have "got on" (sorry!) famously.
And she always won at Trivial Pursuit!
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451 kikidread
"Will good or evil triumph?"
Guess that depends on whether Happylaze forged the daggers or not. His call.
Thank goodness I have always been polite, supportive and appreciative of his effort to type more slowly. I even offered him employment!
So.... I should be alright, I don't know about the rest of you.
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Special for Burns' Night
Slainte!
ed
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Ref 456, Timohio
I agree with what you indicated in your post, and I am eagerly awaiting for President Obama's position and policies on this critical subject.
Near surface temperature measurements taken since the first half of the last century indicate that global warming and the melting of the polar caps and glaciers are very real.
In my opinion, Al Gore's biggest problem is that he engaged in the traditional trap set by the oil and auto industries focused on who to blame rather than what actions can our governments - and us - take to mitigate the effects of a phenomena that is likely to have a major impact on life on Earth within a few decades.
Rising sea levels, devastating droughts with major impact to agriculture, and scarcity of potable water are likely to create more havoc at a global scale than all the jihadists and arrogant politicians combined.
Obviously, we have to understand the root causes of the problem to take effective action, but after years of neglect the only recourse left may be to start building barriers to limit the impact of rising sea level on cities like Miami, Houston, New Orleans and New York to name a few; constructing underground habitats to limit the effects of radiation, and exploring the possibility of increased dependence on ocean products as footdstuff.
We are not going to be able to harness solar forcing, solar output, the magnetic activity of the Sun, or change the cooling effect of volcanic dust and sulfate aerosols; but we could certainly limit the amount of carbon emissions that are contributing to global warming and is accelerating the process.
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452.
I am not a union member but have no problem whatsoever with them. I wish there were more union jobs where I am, but here is something you get wrong.
I am also a skilled Tig ,mig ,stick, O/a and fire welder.I have passed national certs but the Boss holds them.(illegal I know).
I am trained in sheet metal as well as forging.
What is more one of the best welders I know is anti union but real good.And many of the locals know that.
I would contest the statement that non union workers are less skilled.
Less able, though life saving skills are important.
The giving better wages is important as well.
I am one of those non union workers sometimes and have welded up bridge structure(in the shop) and UT inspected work.
all for 12 buck an hour.
I understand the power and use of a union, but don't tell me I know less.
That I am less skilled just because I am not in the union.
I'm just more stoned.
But still if you can hot punch and drift 680holes while smoking 680 bowls in less than a week go ahead I'd agree.
But I doubt it.
I'm not knocking Union work or the tea breaks, I worked in the netherlands on jobs. so good were the general employment rules I did not need a union.
There not being allowed to lift over 25 kg meant waiting for thee overhead crane to be finished with .(even if they just started using it with the wire fee tig which always went wrong and held the mechine up for hours.)
(Though if I could read dutch better I might have found I was paying themlol)
No I am brought up thinking 4 weeks paid a year and breaks not to be disturbed on.
But don't knock the work of non unions or I might become as resentful of unions as so many other .
I'm skilled turn up on time ready to work every day, don't call in sick unless unable to move (so not yet).
Unions in the states are a class structure of their own. in the UK unions fought for us all to have holiday, not just union guys.
Good luck with the unions I hope they thrive. But not if you want to claim I can't do my job.
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461 time
Your well safe as most are.
Though I argue here strongly you might also notice I have apologised to some and hold no grudge, dislike for some but no grudge.
And I would not harm much more than flies,or dinner.
And I would take you up on that employment if it were not for the mods getting in the way.
Now those daggers. I generally have a rule about blades.
It seems it is not favourable to saving the world, but being a man of principles I think I will continue to not make blades and damned the world to chaos.
Well not for americans that is.
But I could give them a lily with a spike on it, that might work.
Or some seriously dangerous "fire" pokers.
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Marcus dear fellow. I'm not pleased (believe it or not) to see you being given such abuse from DC but you are a bit of a toxic person.
sorry it is true.
I am as well. So I get some. but your attacks are quite funny.
I suspect that there maybe products DC has made that will out last yours by years.
I'm not being nasty but it is true that a lot of electrical things get replaced regularly.
Just think Beowulf will out last anything you produce.
Though I must say you have shown your human side for once with your attitude to unions.
Or was that your snobby side.
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I realise that many will regard it as a load of bull but may I wish all a happy Chinese New Year.4076
2009 - The year of the Ox with a President born in the year of the OX
"• Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek".
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
Good Health
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463 St Dom
create more havoc at a global scale than all the jihadists and arrogant politicians combined.
I reckon the arrogant politicians have already brought us to the brink if not over it.
The last 8 years have been about the war, as we raped and plundered the world at even faster rates.
Thatcher had her Falklands GW had the war,
at some stage the G lobal W arming has to be put forward as the Most important.
On a world level one Nuke is not that big a deal and could help to cool things down for a while.
But we would be fighting while we destroyed the world as we have done for 6 years.
ROB LOON;)
So that author is not up to the standard.
But neither are those that say GW is not happening.
That is why your argument is silly.
Those who discount mans efforts on global warming are the fringe loonies .
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happylaze
Food for thought:
http://www.greenfaithministry.com/theHolyHerb.html
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Ivory madonna dying in the dust,
Waiting for the manna coming from the west.
Barren is her bosom, empty as her eyes,
Death a certain harvest scattered from the skies.
Skin and bones is creeping, doesn't know he's dead.
Ancient eyes are peeping, from his infant head.
Politician's argue sharpening their knives.
Drawing up their Bargains, trading baby lives.
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To#264Chronophobe
Thank you for your post and the reminder to do more!
I will donate, as well. The food and also the information about unexploded shells will save lives.
"War is not healthy for children and other living things." (Another Mother For Peace, 1968)
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#430. politejomsviking: "424, Cunard - If you are responsible for the trash on TV in Britain or the US or what has passed for music in he 20th and 21st Century, perhaps a learned trade would be a good use of your time."
Your writing belies your pseudonym which starts with "polite". I have a first name and it is rude not to use it.
No, I am not responsible for the "the trash on TV", but like some others here you dismiss everything presented without considering that amongst the dross there is some gold. That goes for music as well - do you ignore Bernstein, Elgar, Britten, Gershwin, Berlin, Copeland, Kern, Walton, Shostakovich? The most successful composer of all time is British, but I have no doubt you do not appreciate his work.
As for a learned trade, I am a capable plumber, able carpenter and, like Winston Churchill, a more than fair bricklayer. I've done such tasks as a break from the more mundane aspects of modern life.
#446. MarcusAureliusII: "A regular Jean Marie Cantalaube of the American hinterland?"
You mean Jean-Marie Cantaloube? Hardly; I don't play the accordion, although I can push some buttons now and then.
I am flattered to read that you have written thirty-three paragraphs and four hundred and eighty-one words all about me! Since you don't think highly of my endeavours I can only assume that my contributions to humanity must be of some import otherwise you would have not expended so much time and effort in criticism. Jeebers76 was unable to understand why there are personal attacks, but you relish them and rise to the bait every time.
"We are not amused!"
I remind you who is credited with that remark - an old Queen; rather a good parallel I thought. Interesting though that you would quote a British monarch, so there must be something good about the United Kingdom after all.
"Ah, a luddite forced into the modern age to compete. You probably like LPs better than Redbook CDs too"
Wrong; all my other work was done with Macs, the thinking man's computer. And I have written many Red Book masters, none ever rejected by the manufacturing plant. By the way, becoming a recording engineer requires artistic ability and judgement beyond the adjustment of levels (etc), a talent which you appear not to possess. You were right to choose another path.
When all the ditch digging is done, much of my work will be remembered because it has been saved for future generations. Unless the Library of Congress and its contents are completely destroyed, that's where my contribution to humanity will be found - not in a landfill.
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Justin, speaking as a practicing Christian, I'd say you're the one making a big deal out of this. This is really a non-issue.
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I realise that many will regard it as a load of bull but may I wish all a happy Chinese New Year.4076
2009 - The year of the Ox with a President born in the year of the OX
"Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek".
ps Moderators do not like links that let you read your own forecast.
Perhaps I should not have labelled them Buffalo chips
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#460. timewaitsfornoman: "Although not as caustic as you, you two would have "got on" (sorry!) famously."
"To get on" is perfectly acceptable, as is the sentiment you express. Your mother sounds like a remarkable person. I'm only caustic when it is necessary - one fights fire with fire.
#466. happylaze: "I'm not pleased (believe it or not) to see you being given such abuse from DC but you are a bit of a toxic person. . . but your attacks are quite funny."
The problem with MAII is that he attacks constantly - and to use an Americanism, "the best defense is a good offense." Incidentally, I enjoyed the gallery from Jack's Forge.
I made an error at #428 - Marcus is not like the Duchess but rather the little boy - he only does it to annoy, because he knows it teases. As Alice observes though, the little boy in question turns into a pig. Need I say more?
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#464
"But not if you want to claim I can't do my job."
--------------------
There are many non-union people who are our equal in craftsmanship. Re-read #452 and tell me where I said there weren't. But put the Crack-Pipe down first...
The difference, as has already been mentioned here, is the fact that with a non-union crew, one or two men out of a crew of ten or more might actually know what they are doing.
The others on the job are usually hired straight off the street, because they have no experience and will work cheaply. All while the Company owner is charging the same labor rate for them as he is for the more experienced "core" workers he has.
As a result of this, the few real craftsmen in these companies have to literally "baby-sit" these unexperienced hirelings.
I have been a Foreman for the last eight years. Having other highly trained Journeymen on the job, mixed in with the Apprentices, allows me to do what I am supposed to be doing. Delegating work, and coordinating with the other trades.
With a set-up like this, the apprentice is never at fault. The Journeyman an apprentice is assigned to is responsible for that apprentice and if something gets screwed up, its considered his fault, not the Apprentice's.
Using a system like this, the continued training outside the classroom is assured, and all the while I am able to do my job without worrying about baby-sitting the men under my charge. If we have a Journeyman that doesn't do his part, or teaches the Apprentice sloppy techniques, that Journeyman is sent back to the Union Hall and replaced with a responsible man.
This system works, and works well. I fully realize that we have equals in the non union field, as has been said, they are generally one or two for every ten in the company.
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happylaze, your nearsighted view of life prevents you from seeing "the big picture." Everything I designed, built, coordinated, facilitated will be replaced or discarded eventually. BUT, the discoveries made in some of the research labs I built will add to knowledge that will be around forever with no telling what ripple effects they will have in the future. Drugs, electronic devices, and other things made in the factories I built will enhance lives, save lives, lengthen lives and what use is made of that time and quality of life by those who benefit from it cannot be said, nobody knows and there is no way to find out. Your internet connection and transmission right now may have been made possible by software developed on experimental telephone networks I built or on computers in installed in data centers I built. I only play a small role in all of this but that is how progress is made in this world. And when people have spare time to sit around, they can watch the 63,583rd rebroadcast of a Gilligan's Island episode David Cunard produced or whatever he did on fiber optic technology I had a small hand in developing.
BTW, Cunard I presume like many here is among the 10% British who became expats by leaving the UK as their home indefinitely, a lot of them winding up in the US. You can see the psychological and cultural baggage they've brought with them. They are lucky that the citizenship test we give for naturalized citizens is only about the most basic aspects of America and its history. How many justices on the Supreme Court, How many years is a President's term, how many terms can he serve, what year did the Declaration of Independence get written in? Most could not pass an exam even in high school civics in any high school in the US with their limited knowledge. That's OK, the following generation will be indistinguishable from the rest of us, often much to their chagrin.
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The first swearing in and the fact that Roberts essentially bumbled it was fraught with symbolism, Freud and most obvious passive aggressive behavior by Roberts. He knew that Obama had voted against his nomination to the Supreme Court. For an official who is exposed to countless ceremonies, it was most irresponsible not to have been prepared with a note card containing these most important lines even though he felt he had it memorized. In other words, his part in the inauguration was "the inauguration" for the nation and his lines were the center of the celebration. It was time for him to throw away childish things and be sure it was done correctly by this public servant, , ,
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414. At 05:19am on 25 Jan 2009, vivaelcid wrote:
"It was used to justify the MURDER of over a thousand people."
So the killing of Hamas terrorists is MURDER ? I think not. If Israel had been left alone and not attacked by genocidal maniacs backed by Iran, then Gaza would not be in the state it is now. When one thinks of the billions of dollars of aid poured into Gaza and to what purpose ? To fund schools where young children are taught to hate Jews, to dig tunnels for weapons smuggling, to endlessly fire rockets at civilian targets in Israel. If only Hamas loved their children as much as they hated Jews then peace might have a chance."
How? Israel would still kill them.
Israel is now almost admitting it deliberately killed Gazan civilians.
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David Cunard, I was mistaken. I "DIDN'T" think highly of your endeavors. But now you've straightened it out. I'm sure you can lay bricks with the best of them. OTOH, the Poles did have to go to Britain en masse to fix all the plumbing. Evidently Brits don't make very good plumbers. Same problem Nixon had, leaks. Then of course, there are those who don't appreciate brick walls or any kind of walls.
http://www.bartleby.com/104/64.html
"SOMETHING there is that doesn't love a wall"...."Good fences make good neighbors"
Do you think the Atlantic ocean is a wide enough fence for the US and the UK/EU? Too bad it isn't the Pacific, it's twice as wide.
Of the composers you cited, only Elgar and Britten were British and....neither of them was the most successful composer of all time. Whom did you have in mind, John Lennon or Paul McCartney :-) If you were a carpenter....next you will be telling my you're Jesus Christ himself.
Art, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Don't worry about me happylaze, I can take it and I can dish it out. We 'merikuns are tough. I'm not afraid of Cunard. His family owned the Titanic. They thought they were tough but it sank on its maiden voyage. I want to see one of his walls just to check out how straight and plumb it is. I'd probably put on my CM hat and tell him to tear it down and do it again right this time. Probably non union too. Jack of all trades, master of none.
Cunard, tally up my words in this posting about you, add them to your count. Who knows, maybe one day I'll set a record.
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#459 Happy
"4) The IRA were not pawns used by a nation state intent on destroying Britain (as Hamas are by Iran)"
they were pawns for thick headed dumb wanna be terrorist "irish"americans.
I suppose you could include Libya in that list.
"5)The IRA were not the government of Eire"
but the gov of eire did contain terrorists and their supporters.
And that Eire laid constitutional cliam on N Ire.
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It's a ghetto people song, only them can sing this one
It's a song for the poor who's facing sufferation
Followers, followers of downpression
Why do you only terrorize the poor
Diluting the fact they are human
Who one day will not take it any more, woh
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Jesus never had a bible
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All,
I don't think anybody contends that there may be somebody who is non-union who can accomplish a given task. Soe might be quite proficient.
But realistically you have a higher probability of getting something done correctly, safely the first time, if you turn to men/women who have devoted their life to that trade and make a decent living in it.
In a capitalist economy, paying less ussually means getting less somewhere in the equation. You and I do not have the expertise to tell another man who has devoted his life to learning and practicing a a trade whether it is done correctly or not. We may kid ourselves, but we don't.
I may be able to clamp off an Artery in a ditch, without anestisia or build a road through a jungle temporarily, but be assurred I have been to surgery twice this year and would never consider letting one of my buddies do it because I have seen him do it before and we think we got it. Both Surgerys were performed by Surgeons who are part of the American Medical Association. Correspondingly, I hired Union tradesman to build my driveway over the two hills going from my road to my house. My neighbor did the same task with some gentleman from Mexico he hired from in front of home depot. My driveway is still there, his is in pieces.
Whenever you are fooling with water, electricity or other dangerous items capable of cataclismic diasters you should employ Union labor if possible.
Not to mention it's the right thing to do by your employees and people will respect you more for doing the right thing, for not undercutting these men and their families wages. I always hire Union labor for all my government projects and have never had a late or inferior quality problem with any of them. I'm a hands on manager and likeworking withproffessionals, I don't consider going to the Golf Course work, so I generally like having Union tradesmen on the job who get it right the first time and make reasoned arguments why we should do it the better way, instead of goofing with other managers and blaming the underer trained non-union worker when it goes wrong.
Mercedes, Boeing, Apple, BMW, Harley-Davidson, Ford, Schotts, are Union theres a pattern there.
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#477. MarcusAureliusII: "Everything I designed, built, coordinated, facilitated will be replaced or discarded eventually."
That is the difference between us - mine will not, just as the work of those who blow glass and forge art from metal will not be lost. From Biblical times, art invariably lasts longer than anything else. It may be discarded, but centuries, even millennia, later will be discovered.
"Cunard I presume like many here is among the 10% British who became expats by leaving the UK as their home indefinitely, a lot of them winding up in the US. You can see the psychological and cultural baggage they've brought with them."
You might consider what psychological baggage you carry rather than being concerned with my mental health. Constant vilification of Europe, her citizens and culture seems excessively defensive and for which I feel sure there is some assistance. You failed to acknowledge the great European scientists who made your work possible - a little gratitude would be in order. It was they who led the way, not, as you probably would have it, Edison. Restoring and preserving American music can hardly be described as (British) cultural baggage.
Oh - but how I wish I had produced Gilligan's Island - think of the royalties pouring in - but alas, I was never involved with television production. Series like that are considered to be American Icons, so don't knock 'em, it's unpatriotic. Next thing we'll be reading is how much you despise Lucy, America's redhead.
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456 timohio
Thanks for your comments re the weather. I've listened to a number of t.v. discussions about global warming, read a few articles, and watched documentaries - some of which were totally unconvincing in their efforts to convince us that global warming is purely the product of man's activity.
One important factor that influences me now, is that carbon dioxide in the atmosphere has increased only 5% through man's activity, an amount, I'm now convinced, totally inadequate to influence climate change to any significant extent.
Far more impressive, I believe, is the evidence that global warming has more to do with the sun and rays off the solar system. (I think it was said they were 'gamma rays', but wouldn't stake my life on it).
This being the case, it will not be the first time. Consider the Sahara Desert and one thinks of a vast desert wilderness that since time immemorial has been that way. Yet that is not so. Slap dab in the middle of this vast barrenness archeologists and adventurers have found old rock paintings showing that right there, once upon a time, there were lakes with bullrushes, crocodiles, wilderbeeste, and giraffes, among other wild animals. So while climate change and global warming is a harsh reality, I don't believe that the primary influencing factor is man's activity.
The other reality now, is that 'global warming' has spawned a whole new industry, and consequently those involved in this are going to promote 'man-made global warming' regardless of what the truth is. In this regard, this is not only a 'marshmellow world', it truly is often a 'B.S. world'.
By all means give me your thoughts.
457 publiusdetroit
Thanks for suggesting I checking on Snopes.com and Wikipedia in future. I will, but with a little reservation. I'm not convinced that Snopes is necessarily always completely correct. On t.v. a few years ago, with my son I watched Al Gore say that his big regret was claiming he had "invented the internet". I mentioned this on this site and someone came back in the standard not so friend way to tell me I didn't know what I was talking about and should check Snopes. Still, I followed their suggestion, checked Snopes and what is says there is plausible, but differs from what I heard - not that is doesn't admit that Gore was a bit obscure and glory seeking. (You can look for yourself). The fact is that evidently a lot of people heard Gore 'wrongly' over this incident because he was roasted in the media and on comedy t.v. shows. I think that 'Saturday Night Live' also had a go at him.
Hence his regret. To give him the benefit of the doubt, he regretted expressingly himself poorly.
468 unhappyglaze
Now, evidently, even that over-worked one brain cell has deflated after for too long crashing around inside an empty skull.
For someone so ignorant, you sure know it all and have all the facts at your finger-tips.
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re. MA2 and David Cunard:
I, for one, have never believed that there is a separation between the arts and the sciences; they are simply two sides of the same coin. I have worked with scientists who were very creative and with artists who were very methodical and disciplined. The best in each area share the same qualities.
If you both have really done what you have related here, you both have contributed much to humanity. Please recognize that about each other, no matter what your other differences might be.
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#483 Dread
Agreed.
And he wasn't a Christian either.
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475 David_Cunard
I am serious when I ask if there is anything you are able to do to help promote Sasha Roiz's career. Should you have the time or inclination.
I'm trying to think who he could play in the blockbuster, "No Bible for the Second Oath." To keep on topic.
Google him, he's there.
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Marcus Areliuss II,
Thanks for the help getting Gilligan,s Island. My father's employees called him "the Skipper" after this show. My dog is named Skipper after it. We love Gilligan!
I am throughly in favor of a three hour tour on the SS Minnow!
Where are the people who wrote Gilligan's Island, F-Troop, McCales Navy, Hogans Heroes and the original Star Trek which taught us to "Boldly go where no man has gone before!"
Maybe even more importantly Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock taught a lot of valuable life lessons like just as importantly as going there is not to destroy the culture you wish to study. That and Democracy may seem weak and disoranized, but as any Clingon (a totalitarian society) ever hit by a Photon torpedo will tell you, in th end they always seem to win.
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#480. MarcusAureliusII: "Of the composers you cited, only Elgar and Britten were British"
Those mentioned were in response to 'politejomsviking' who implied that there was no worthwhile music in this or the last century. I would have thought you would have known that the most successful composer of all time is neither John Lennon nor Paul McCartney, but rather Andrew Lloyd Webber. Success as measured in American terms - by income.
"I'm not afraid of Cunard. His family owned the Titanic."
Wrong. RMS Titanic, funded by J. P. Morgan and his International Mercantile Marine Company, was commissioned and owned by the rival White Star Line and constructed in Ireland by Harland and Wolff. It was not until 1933 that the company merged with Cunard. It is now controlled by Carnival plc.
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#483. kikidread: "Jesus never had a bible"
He, or at least, his Temple, had the Torah/Tanakh scrolls.
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#477
And lo the brushmaker believes he is responsible for Caravaggio's Matthew cycle, the chisel maker takes credit for Bernini's Daphne and Apollo.
LMAO that time Marcus. The tool maker is nothing without the creativity and vision. That's why we applaud and reward the artist.
Sam Schama
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#470
Kiki,
If we are having poetry today, there is only one appropriate work:
Wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie,
O, what panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!
I wad be laith to rin an' chase thee,
Wi' murd'ring pattle!
I'm truly sorry Man's dominion
Has broken Nature's social union,
An' justifies that ill opinion,
Which makes thee startle,
At me, thy poor, earth-born companion,
An' fellow-mortal!
I doubt na, whyles, but thou may thieve;
What then? poor beastie, thou maun live!
A daimen-icker in a thrave 'S a sma' request:
I'll get a blessin wi' the lave,
An' never miss't!
Thy wee-bit housie, too, in ruin!
It's silly wa's the win's are strewin!
An' naething, now, to big a new ane,
O' foggage green!
An' bleak December's winds ensuin,
Baith snell an' keen!
Thou saw the fields laid bare an' wast,
An' weary Winter comin fast,
An' cozie here, beneath the blast,
Thou thought to dwell,
Till crash! the cruel coulter past
Out thro' thy cell.
That wee-bit heap o' leaves an' stibble,
Has cost thee monie a weary nibble!
Now thou's turn'd out, for a' thy trouble,
But house or hald.
To thole the Winter's sleety dribble,
An' cranreuch cauld!
But Mousie, thou are no thy-lane,
In proving foresight may be vain:
The best laid schemes o' Mice an' Men,
Gang aft agley,
An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain,
For promis'd joy!
Still, thou art blest, compar'd wi' me!
The present only toucheth thee:
But Och! I backward cast my e'e,
On prospects drear!
An' forward, tho' I canna see,
I guess an' fear!
To the Lassies!
Rabbie Sam
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425,
Oh please. Jews can go where they like. Heck, the USA is more than happy to have them. We have no problems/beef with Jews at all.
Second, by simply living together does NOT equate to suicide for the Jews and Palestinians. Honestly, it's attitudes like that which make me think we should just cut off all Israeli aid posthaste and let them duke it out once and for all. I seriously doubt Israel would last more than a handful of years sans US aid.
I meant what I wrote. What part of "Thou shalt not kill" DIDN'T you understand? If either side tries something funny, the USA has more than enough firepower to squish either or both at the same time. Enough of this squabbling, this constant killing. I don't care WHO started it, but I'd rather it ended than continue condoning slaughter on both sides.
Cunard, I don't know if you'll read this, but I have to say that if you profess to be better than MAII, then you shouldn't be returning the potshots. The more attention given to inappropriate behavior, the worse it gets ON BOTH SIDES. When I wrote about finding a sense of decorum, I probably should have written "Grow the heck up!"
This is damnably immature, to sit here and trade personal insults, and that goes to Cunard, MAII, and the rest who participate. I can't believe I'm the measly 32 year old, and YOU have to be the more immature ones than I! You can do better than this. Let them rant, the less attention paid the more frustrated they will grow.
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Temper, temper Cunard. What happened to that stiff British upper lip. It seems quivering right now. You know what your problem is Mr Cunard, you are angry because you know I've been right all along. You just don't want to admit it. That you did not stay in the UK is proof to yourself and the world that when push comes to shove, America is a better place to live. At least it is for you.
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What an odd post this has become.
"trouble is american people only want to hear the official government lines or lies for world affairs"
Trouble is Americans don't bother with world affairs that they are not directly involved in.
MAII.
If oyu took the time to re-read your war and peace like submissions you may come across lines like britsh people aren't good plumbers so they imported poles to do the job. So in a country that size not one brittish plumber is good? if you actually knew europe as well as you professes you would know that once Poland joined the EU they were legally allowed to live and work anywhere they liked, a lot went to Ireland and England as they contained a lot of money and work. So the British didn't import Poles, they just showed up and due to a good work ethic and the fact that the are a little cheaper they got plenty of work.
So sterotyping only makes you look foolish and ill informed.
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#490
Polite,
Surely the lesson of Star Trek is the Captain always sleeps with the green chick? You can't get any more colorblind than that, can you?
Helpful Sam
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everyoneiscrazy 497,
"Trouble is Americans don't bother with world affairs that they are not directly involved in."
Sigh. And why, pray tell, did you NOT notice this same tendency the world 'round? All of humanity is like that. Putting it in B&W terms, most of humanity is grey or neutral. They won't go out of their way to help nor harm a stranger. Very few humans will deliberately try to reduce stranger's misery or create it for their own benefit. It's a fundamentally animalistic view of the universe, one that every other living creature shares. "You don't mess with me, I won't mess with you, we're all good." Homo sapiens is one of the few creatures on Earth that has the capacity to go beyond selfishness on occasion. Heck, we took in other species for no other purpose than companionship!
Point is, we have to capacity to go far, but we have a long way to go to raise that capability in all of us. Try watching a cheesy horror/action flick called "Doom" all the way to the end. You'll see what I mean. America is no better than any other country, nor worse. The only real difference is that we embraced practicality over all other values, rather than the ones our mother countries/cultures would have.
MarcusII, please stop taking personal potshots. Restrict your arguments to the subject matter, not the opponent him/herself. Your life would be far easier, and much more respected here if you did.
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465 happylaze
"461 if it were not for the mods "
I was thinking about leaving breadcrumb clues a la Hansel and Gretel. Waterman is a pretty good detective, he could probably figure them out, but then thought - he'll have the same problem passing the information on to you. So that won't work.
On another topic: 39.7% of the Quebec work force is unionized. If you work for a construction company you must be "card carrying" and therefore receive unionized wages.
495 Jeebers76
Your idea does sound like a good one except for the fact Israel has nuclear weapons!! Supplied by.......
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