Why no special election in Illinois?
Back on the Blagojevich saga, I see gunsandreligion offers the captivating suggestion that Rahm Emanuel might become the new Oliver North.
Steady now. But I have to say I am beginning to detect - in spite of my claim that it all adds up to nothing - that the Obama team is running out of sympathy slightly faster than is wise on this issue.
Behind the scenes, he is keeping to the strategy of being the moderate can-do, work-with-anyone man, but in front of the cameras (and the men and women with the pens and notebooks) his refusal to open up is frustrating to some.
Seems to me that the oddest subject for him to duck is the special election for the senate seat which the Republicans want and the Democrats seem not to - out of fear presumably that they might lose.
It would cost the state quite a bit to put it on, but it would cost Mr Obama nothing to call for it - and genuinely to want it - as by far the most democratic and un-corrupt solution to the problem, a point noted by some of the local press.
The fact is, though, that they are frightened of Republican Congressman Mark Kirk getting his party's nomination and winning the seat.
Mr Kirk is a moderate with liberal social views (full disclosure - we were at college together) and would re-energise not only the Republicans of Ilinois but also, I suspect, the mainstream of the wider party who would see non-Palin routes to victory.
That is why the special election (by-elections we call them in the UK) is unlikely to happen.
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Obama doesn't need to take a position on whether to have a special election, and should not in my view. He should stick to the business of organizing his administration, and I expect that he will.
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The 17th Amendment makes the appointment of a temporary Senator by the Governor of a state legal with the approval of that state's legislature (which in the case of Illinois, it has). So, there's nothing untoward about an gubernatorial appointment with respect to the law.
Otherwise, it's up to the people of Illinois. If they want a special election, they can make their preference known. If the legislature doesn't go along with them, the electorate will punish them in the next election.
As a citizen of Colorado, I couldn't care less. There's no chance of a super majority for the Democrats (which I don't want) nor is there any danger of them losing their majority.
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I don't think it's up to Obama to decide to have a special election
because it's not his call.
Am I wrong on this?
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The state officials still need to figure out what to do with Gov. Blagojevich before they start thinking about filling the Senate vacancy. The State Supreme Court just recently refused to hear the state attorney general's case against the governor, so now the only way to remove the governor is by impeachment. Only after that will Blagojevich's replacement get to decide whether to fill the vacancy by appointment or signal to the state election board to call a special election. Personally, I am more in favor of a special election because of the extra-ordinary circumstances surrounding this Senate seat, but it's up to the elected officials in Illinois to decide, not me.
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lochraven (#), it's definitely not his call, but as a resident of Illinois his opinion on the question is as legitimate as anyone else's. But why should he express an opinion?
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1, Gary Hill.
"Obama doesn't need to take a position on whether to have a special election, and should not in my view. He should stick to the business of organizing his administration, and I expect that he will."
Since Obama is head of the party there is no way he can avoid indirect involvement in this or any other situation having to do with Democrats. His advice and preferences will be sought.
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all (#6), are you from a country with a parliamentary system of government? In the US, the President, or in this case, president-elect, is not "head of the party." Parties are mostly state organizations anyway, and Obama has no position of responsibility in the Illinois Democratic Party at this time.
While it is true that presidents (and presidents-elect) are influential (as long as they are doing well), there is nothing at all that Obama must do to resolve this, and nothing that he should do.
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BHO is probably wise to stay out of the question of 'election/no election', because it is the business of the State of Illinois, not the White House(or the President-elect) to be involved.
Now, the question is: Is the public stance of 'distance' congruent with the private stance and activities of BHO and his staff? He runs the risk of being caught attempting to have things both ways, and this would damage the credibility he will certainly need in the days ahead.
We are so accustomed to duplicity and incompetence from all sides, and so utterly fed up with it.
Personally, I'd prefer to see a quick and clean special election, which would allow Illinois voters to vent their opinions on political life in their state, and have a true stake in the outcome going forward. It would be healthy for all, I think.
But, not being from Illinois, my opinion (rightly) doesn't count!
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"It would cost the state quite a bit to put it on, but it would cost Mr Obama nothing to call for it - and genuinely to want it"
That's an odd way to put it. If true, there would be no reason for him to dodge the question. And yet he dodged it anyway for one of two possible reasons I see:
1) He is concerned about causing damage to his party's efforts to prevent a special election despite disagreeing with them and privately supporting it.
2) He genuinely thinks the special election is a bad idea for Illinois (perhaps due to the cost), but doesn't want to publically criticize it, because the special election would be the "most democratic and un-corrupt solution to the problem" as you put it, which could make him look bad and open him as a target of Republican ridicule needlessly.
Either way, his answering the question could incur cost on him. It's acceptable for him to dodge it because, ultimately, how Illinois chooses to represent itself in the Senate is no longer his concern any more than it is mine (as a resident of Iowa). And yet I find myself slightly disappointed that he opted for the safe route rather than being frank with us.
After all, it may not be any more his concern than mine, but if you asked me what I thought, I'd tell you.
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American jurisprudence assumes that one, even Gov. Blagojevich, is innocent until proven guilty. For Mr Obama to inject himself further into the controversy would be most inappropriate. If the people of Illinois wish to spend an estimated $10 million on a special election, that's their call, but I suspect the matter will not be resolved swiftly. Didn't the governor just suggest to the press corps to "hang loose"?
Incidentally, British bye-elections are held to elect one member of parliament in a relatively small geographic area - a special election in Illinois would be state-wide and at considerably more cost. Justin's time at the London School of Economics does not appear to have had any practical application.
#6. allmymarbles: "Since Obama is head of the party . . ." Howard Dean is still the Chairman of the DNC, not Mr Obama. He may be President-elect (his election on Monday all but ignored by the media) but he has not replaced Mr Dean.
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Obama is no longer representing the people of Illinois. He has been asked by Fitzgerald to avoid discussing the case and he is complying.
Established procedures exist for filling Senate vacancies in Illinois. Many other states do the same thing. Several Senate vacancies exist and they will all be filled by each respective governor. No reason exists for Illinois to act counter to its own legal requirements.
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Justin,
I have to humbly disagree with you on this subject. I would be more bothered if Obama was arguing the case for a special election. Simply,there is a law in place that deals with how this Senate seat should be filled, so there is no need to interfere. If,as President,he wants to amend the Constitution with regards this matter then he should do that when he takes office.
Secondly, a special election does cost money, so why should the folks of Illinois have to foot the bill when budgets are getting cut.
Thirdly, as you say, why call an election that you might well lose? The Republicans would never do this if the situation was reversed. Why start making a few enemies in your own party? I wouldn't think Nancy Pelosi or Harry Reid would be thrilled. I mean,why not have a special election for Senator Clinton's seat?
Finally, if Obama follows your suggestion and the 'special' election was lost, you will be the first to be questioning his judgment. I think you made a good career choice becoming a journalist Justin, because political strategy isn't your best subject.
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Lt. Col. Oliver North took the blame for the Iran-Contra scandal to get President Reagan off the hook on what was ostensibly one of the most embarrassing foreign policy episodes in our history. I am not sure I understand the rationale behind suggesting that Rahm Emmanuel may do the same for President elect Obama. Are you guys insinuating Obama agreed to or demanded a quid pro quo from Blago? Why would he do that?
A more likely scenario may involve a couple of representatives who were interested in that position, and had no choice but to drop out of the race because regardless of their involvement in this fiasco their credibility is now tainted.
I find the media frustration puzzling, Obama explained the reason for the delay and Patrick Fitzgerald confirmed it.
Give it a rest, you are chasing ghosts...
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Is Mr. Webb obsessing over nothing?
What's this to do with the President-elect?
Have the Law and Order folk jumped too soon? Can they make it stick?
President-elect Obama doesn't have to be involved in everything and this soap opera certainly isn't a priority.
BTW, Mrs Clinton/Mr. McCain didn't win - get over it.
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David, I understood that a special election was to be held to replace Emmanuel. If that is the case then it is not necessary to incur an additional $10m.
Corbly, many people, including many prominent democrats, disagree with your claim that no reason exists for Illinois to act counter to its own legal requirements. They find that as the Governor is being investigated for corruption, they wish to change the way things are done and are taking action to achieve this.
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For once I agree with Old South at #8. No business of the President-Elect.
Peace and probity
ed
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I also think this is another media soap opera. The people of Illinois should not have to pay for a special election because of a venal governor. If they do choose to have an election perhaps the DNC coffers would volunteer to pay the bill.
The state of Illinois should be allowed to let their laws and constitution decide how this is handled. No matter what happens, the new senator will have to run for re-election in two years.
President elect Obama is not responsible for dictating how Illinois conducts its affairs and we have been told over and over that he cannot speak out at this particular time.
Children, (I mean media people) can you not all wait for Christmas to unwrap your presents?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
10. David re: 6 Marbles:
He may not be the de jure head of the party, but he certainly is the de facto one.
Still, have to agree with those who want to follow the existing law.
Can't understand why the governor hasn't resigned. If you hold public office your first duty is to put your country ahead of yourself.
Finally, on an historical tangent, it seems to me that at one time all senators were appointed. It was only in the days of the Progressives, La Follette and the effort to have the right of referendum and public initiatives adopted that the practice of electing senators started. Of course, while this led to significant success in anti-trust, led to the election of senators, and to extension of the franchise to women, it also led to prohibition.
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#15. seanspa: "I understood that a special election was to be held to replace Emmanuel. If that is the case then it is not necessary to incur an additional $10m."
I don't know the specifics of that.
". . . as the Governor is being investigated for corruption, they wish to change the way things are done and are taking action to achieve this."
Being investigated and being found guilty are two quite different things! The law should take its course and others should not jump to conclusions. It's hardly essential that Mr Obama's seat be filled immediately.
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Justin, are you leaving us? I have really missed something in my readings.
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Obama should do nothing. He represents the U.S. as a whole now instead of just Illinois. I would like him to keep focusing on his cabinet instead, so we can try to get out of this mess we're in. Someone else can figure out Blago's mess. Perhaps someone can hire a professional to do his hair also.
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To#19Interestedforeigner
I wish that our politicians put the good of their constituents and their states or country ahead of their own greed, egos or ideology.
I have heard that if all wishes were horses then all beggars would be riding.
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To #20Davidcunard
Unfortunately, I think that our current culture has rendered "innocent until proven guilty" somewhat moot.
A person can be tarred, tried and condemned before the echo of the latest sound byte from the media has ebbed.
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The old school tie rules again, no? I thought Mr. Webb was tired of this particular canard. "Innocent until proven guilty--or until one of my school chums has a chance at running for office."
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"In the US, the President, or in this case, president-elect, is not "head of the party."
Sorry, Gary, I think you're wrong on this one issue. The President is indeed the de facto head of his party. Think of it this way. He's the most powerful person in the country (some think the world), so however could he not head his party? He's not the chief strategist, mind you, but the party does what he wants (at least initially -- he can lose that power as Mr. Bush has).
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...and now I'd like to take that back and address it to allmymarbles.
Good grief!
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#24. aquarizonagal: "Unfortunately, I think that our current culture has rendered "innocent until proven guilty" somewhat moot."
Probably true, but in this case I think it would behoove everyone concerned to hear both sides of the story. It's not as if there is any rush to fill the seat. It seems to me that Illinois lawmakers are rushing to judgement based solely on an investigation and an accusation. The governor may be a rotten s.o.b. but he does deserve the chance to explain himself.
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The reason President Elect Obama does not speak in favor of a special election for his old Senate seat is the same reason those Democrats who immediately called for such an elction have since backed off....an appointment will guarantee the Democrats not only an extra Democrat in the Senate but an incumbent to run for election in two years. A special election would run an unnecessary risk to this longer term objective. I personally do not want President Elect Obama to insert himself into this mess because any scandal even remotely associated with him at this time would be the last thing this country needs.
If I had a say, and I rightly do not since I am not from Illinois, they should strip the governor of appointment power immediately and schedule a special election in an effort to restore some public trust. Since the Senate seat in question is Obama's seat, it would be in the interest of the entire country if there was an election instead of appointment since any appointment will be questioned as another backroom deal. This is the second governor in a row to be charged with corruption, the other is seeking a pardon at this time.
By the way, I seem to remember that the Legislatures of each state initally elected the Senators of the State because the founders felt Senators represented the State itself instead of being the representatives of the people. It has been less than 100 years since all Senators have been elected by direct poplular vote.
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So many good comments.
Old south showing more moral fibre than some.
It is not his job , it is not the law and it doesn't make sense.
Good to see justin back on his old footing.
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To #30Happylaze
Very well said in just a few words.
It takes more words for me to express the same thoughts but I so agree. Tempest in a teapot when there is so much more happening right now.
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31 Aquagal
thank you what are you doing up so late?
love a cup myself, did you know turtles come on railroad spikes now ,and are complimentary to beaders with the right blag.
I suspect you have the blag.
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#13, DV, you might be correct in your interpretation
of events. My theory is that Blagovitch attempted
to blackmail the White House in some way, and
Emmanuel stood up to him.
Hence the quote being bandied about from the
tapes: "Obama offers nothing..."
My point was that Oliver North was the subject
of a Congressional witch hunt, but turned the tables
on his inquisitors, and made them look like complete
fools.
So, even though I remain distrustful of Obama,
the limited and incomplete evidence presented
so far appears to exonerate him.
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To Happylaze
You are so much fun and I would also share a cup of tea. I am up late because I am old and sometimes have pain that keeps me awake.
I do not know about blag but I do have a turtle in my pond that we call Jack. He was born with only one eye but he is the biggest smartest turtle in the pond.
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34 I hope that pain goes away.
Your turtle called Jack should get in touch with his namesakes forge to see what happens.
PS I loved the comment about opening presents.
gave me a laugh.
thanks
just to get more on topic for a moment.(mod friendly postings)
29"I seem to remember that the Legislatures of each state initally elected the Senators of the State because the founders felt Senators represented the State itself instead of being the representatives of the people."
Interesting, though sounds like a commie to me.;)
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To #35Happylaze
I think you have that correct about the Senators being for the state. It was the Representatives who were for the people.
I may be wrong about this but I think this is so.
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#28: I agree, the governor does deserve a chance to explain himself. Personally, I look forward to the explanation of the comment that the senate seat is "(bleeping) golden" and that you just don't give away something like that for nothing.
While the comment is a snippet out of (presumably) more context, on the surface it appears to be a nail in a coffin.
Also looking forward to explanations on:
1) Money withheld in payment to children's hospital due to lack of hospital's CEO campaign contribution.
2) EVERYTHING regarding the Chicago tribune charges. With the Tribune's investigative resources, I don't see Blago being able to spin his actions toward innocence.
Regarding special election, it should be up to the people of Illinois to decide if they want it, as well as want to pay for it. After all, the money will come from the people and it is the people who elect who will represent them---or at least that's the way it's supposed to work.
Politics as usual in Illinois has been given a black eye, and this sense of entitlement in our elected officials needs to be stopped. Speaker of House Ed Madigan has his own agenda (tight fisted control of "as usual" Illinois politics), so his opposition to special election appears suspect.
The only credible option would be to let the voters of Illinois decide on their next Senator.
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I don't think this will ever get through to any of the Illinois people, but...
Since the man is a Democrat, shouldn't the Illinois Democrats hold a election amongst their party members? That person would serve out the remainder of the term, it would be just like a straw poll. This wouldn't be expensive at all, in fact it would be pretty painless.
Couldn't we do this for both parties & independents too? Remove any single man from controlling who takes the vacated seat, and just leave it up to the people to decide?
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Hi Aquarizonagal! Good to see you're around again, but sorry if it's only for pain relief. A hot toddy might help with both pain and wakefulness, and it's worth a try, even if it doesn't. ;-)
Peace and a nip
ed
Special election? Walls have ears.
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"It would cost the state quite a bit to put it on, but it would cost Mr Obama nothing to call for it - and genuinely to want it - as by far the most democratic and un-corrupt solution to the problem, a point noted by some of the local press."
It's not within his remit- and it would cost him a lot to call for it- as it would energise the Republican/moderate intellectuals who believe strongly in state rights and limiting federal government.
It's these guys who are the real threat to Obama for 2012- and are the people who are majorly turned off by the Palin/religious right...
Secondly, just think of what it will do to relations between him and the Democrat Party. He'd totally undermine Pelosi/Harry Reid and co. and massively antagonise them, which is exactly what he doesn't want to do before trying to get the approval of both houses before he passes what will likely be a huge stimulus bill. Do you not remember the trouble Clinton had in his first term?
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If your mate Kirk is reasonable, intelligent, logical, inspired to work for the good of the people, and not dirty - then I would be all for him, whichever party. But, it's up to Illinois.
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#38:
Jeebers,
Interesting idea, and not without merit. The current vacant seat was voted by the people of Illinois to be represented by a democrat. Fulfilling the remaining time for the senate seat by a democrat stands to reason.
Republicans may chafe at the idea, but your logic is sound. It also would open keep the idea of a special election, removing any tained suspicions of an appointed senate seat.
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Just read Justin's "a point noted by some of the local press."
Because I read Chicago newspapers (you can't get news on the Cubs and Bears living in St. Louis) and am familiar with the editorial boards of the Sun Times and Tribune, I will say that if the Sun Times is suggesting that Republicans might have a point about the need for a special election, Democrats should immediately take notice.
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36 Aquagal
Im sorry to say it I was completely ignorant about this(like most things) just quoting post 29
I think of the state having it's own representative is putting the state above the people.very strange in a country that was founded to give greater liberties to all man. not all states.
Thanks for the kind words
If you like free turtles get in touch with jacksforge.
on to others
on the" people decide if they want a special election" bit that comes up here.
How do you know unless you have an election/ ballot to decide if you want an election.
By which time you might as well roll the two into one but releasing the results of the ballot to elect and then depending on the results the outcome of the other.given the economy and the fact that Illinois
Or are the people that decide special?
Please mods this is educational
Ed remember the debate on antibiotic-antibacterial nano etc.
I said what if the perfect anti biotic was invented would there be consequences .
well I just heard they make Nano silver clothing to stop smell.
Wait for it .
it works it kills smelly bacteria.
And when you wash your cloths it washes out.
Guess what happens?
It still does it's job .
Just let hem think, if we had enough of this we could wipe out life entirely.
But nothing to see here carry on
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44
forgot to add the silver can't smell but is real good at killing all bacteria so who cares eh?
on to topic by elections happen when a seat is empty. Automatically. there is no choice is there. it is quite routine
this is not the case here ,this would be a Special Election.
And the people will not be the ones deciding, well not all the people.
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#19 Interested Foreigner
also progressivism brought us federal income taxes which everyone loves.
#26AndyPost
One would think so. However such is not the case, state parties do what they want for the most part. yeah he has some pull but for the most part in a one party state like Illinois it won't matter what Obama wants.
To clue the readers in as a resident of the Great state of Illinois the official state wide tally for the cost of this special election is 35$ million not 10$ as I have seen some throwing around. Secondly the money to pay for this is comes from local taxes (i.e. the county not Springfield and definitely not Washington).So as good as many people would feel about a special election they will be vastly more dissatisfied when their cash strapped local governments suddenly find themselves in a deeper hole.
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Taint Mongers still at it?
But is it on-topic? Only time will tell.Peace and topicality
ed
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jeebers 38 . that does seem to be a good idea.from sound reasoning.
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interestedforeigner (#19), no, he is not even the de facto head of the party. The US is not structured like the Soviet Union, where all power devolved from the Chairman of the Communist Party down to all lower functionaries. In the US, the individual state parties conduct their own affairs.
Even within Illinois, this matter is not controlled by the Democratic Party, because it is state business, not party business. This is evidenced by the fact that the Illinois Attorney General pursued her own course, asking the Illinois Supreme Court to intervene. (They declined.) This was entirely independent of the course taken by the Illinois legislative leaders, who have their own jurisdiction.
The hallmark of the US political system is that power is distributed all over the place. We call it "checks and balances." It's inefficient, but we don't like autocrats here, no matter how efficient.
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http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1056/blagojevich-framed-as-obamas-first-crisis
lol
keeping their eye on the ball.
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AndyPost (#26), the President's influence (not power) with his party extends mainly to its national committee. So, when Obama secured the nomination, he did get some little change made at the Democratic National Committee. I don't remember what it was, because these things are of no great importance. His influence certainly does not extend to telling individual state parties how to manage their individual affairs.
I don't know where people get the idea that the President is the party leader, and why they are so insistent on making the point. The President is the head of nothing except the Administrative Branch of government and the Armed Forces.
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I voted for Mark Kirk twice now, and I am generally a democrat. As Justin said he is a moderate republican who is for women rights, and has put extensive effort into trying to clean up the harbor on Lake Michigan where i live. It would not give us the sixty senators we need in congress, but i would trust him to be bipartisan.
He is not from Chicago either and thats huge.
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52 my problem is I am not a trekkie, that and I live in Oregon.
Glad to know he is a middleman .
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From whence comes this overly optimistic notion
that the Republicans in Illinois are any less
corrupt than their counterparts in the Democratic
party?
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# 15 seanspa wrote:
"David, I understood that a special election was to be held to replace Emmanuel. If that is the case then it is not necessary to incur an additional $10m."
Don't quite see the logic to this.
Even if a special election is required to replace Emmanuel, surely that would only be in his congressional district? Which would presumably be significantly smaller than the State of Illinois? And consequently any election would be significantly less expensive?
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John, quite right. Stupid thought, withdrawn.
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54 lol
that's why I like you you evenhanded gun totin religious guy;)
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#57, it has been my experience that guns and
religion mix fairly well, as long as one leaves out
the alcohol!
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On the sixth day of Christmas,...
Gobble gobble! ;-)
ed
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ref #42
no the people of Illinois elected Barack Obama, you know the man who crosses party lines.
I have no problem with a govenor appointing the replacement (as long as he is not solicting bribes)
Look on the bright side if your gov was a minority, you would have to endure the friend of terrorists and warcriminals: Ramsey Clark polluting your air.
His unwanted prescence is in Mass supporting a racist Boston City counciller caught taking a bribe.
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No special elections i say. Try to relinquish the governors power, and let the Lt. governor choose, and get on with it.
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Ref 29
"The reason President Elect Obama does not speak in favor of a special election for his old Senate seat is the same reason those Democrats who immediately called for such an elction have since backed off....an appointment will guarantee the Democrats not only an extra Democrat in the Senate but an incumbent to run for election in two years."
Governors normally select replacements with the same party affiliation as the person vacating the post. There is little doubt that Obama's, Biden's, and Clinton's senatorial replacements will all be Democrats and, therefore, changes to the makeup of the Senate are unlikely.
Again, insinuating that Obama or his team were pressuring Gov. Blagojevich to appoint a specific person does not make much sense. There is simply no reason for them to do that. Looks like a bunch of journalists desperately looking for sensationalism to sell their services.
The reasons for not holding a popular election under these circumstances are cost and the need to fill the post ASAP. Elections are expensive, take time, and since the seat is held by a Democrat and Gov. Blago is a Democrat the cost will have to be borne by the DNC.
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Matt Frei has an interesting article about political dynasties. Given that most sitting officials get re-elected (Americans typically seem to think that their official is always the best of a bad bunch in Congress), being given a seat is like being given a life-long ticket to the gravy train.
So there is democracy and there is nepotism. Can you really have the first when you also have the second?
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#63. seanspa: "So there is democracy and there is nepotism. Can you really have the first when you also have the second?"
Is it any worse than Peter Mandelson being made a peer, or years ago, Marcia Wiliams, Harold Wilson's "secretary" who became Baroness Falkender? They may not be blood links, but Mandelson hasn't been elected by anyone (except the Prime Minister) and that seems to me no worse than anyone Matt Frei (no lover of America) mentions
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David, Marcia didn't get power, so not a good example. Mandy though is another matter. Not only not elected, but a serial screw-up who has an amazing history of resigning because he got caught doing something he shouldn't and then getting an even better paid job. We still haven't heard the last of the business on the yacht and his relationship with dodgy russians. So OK, probably no worse.
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64
"Is it any worse than Peter Mandelson being made a peer"
I'd have to agree, not much.
Why did he get a hotel room.As opposed to stay in the embassy or residence?
Is it true that blaggo is saying the tapes were illegal and inadmissible?
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but seanspa's or matts point about nepotism is valid for sure.
same in the media industry , music etc.
america loves creating hierarchies it seems.
despite it's foundations.
(just look at the SCA lol)
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I propose that someone nominate for Illinois Senator.....
US Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald.
Why? Well, he's young, intelligent and well known. He has extensive political experience. He has worked with (and brought to justice) Democrats and Republicans, while simultaneously not bowing to partisan pressures. He's scandal-free. He even has national security experience- he was the first prosecutor to mention Bin Laden's name in court in the USA.
Democrats can take delight in nominating a man who is free from ethical taint. And, if Obama condemned "Scooter Libby justice", what better statement could he make than honoring a man who prosecuted Scooter Libby? Republicans can take pride in the fact that he was suggested by a Republican senator and approved of by Bush. Sounds like a good choice to you?
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#65 seanspa: "David, Marcia didn't get power, so not a good example."
Agreed but she could have spoken in the Lords and potentially could have voted with Labour. I'm sure there are others if I thought hard enough - but you get my drift!
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7, Gary.
When I said Obama was head of the party I did not mean that he had an official position. I meant that he was the strongest Democrat and a big say in the party's politics.
"While it is true that presidents (and presidents-elect) are influential (as long as they are doing well), there is nothing at all that Obama must do to resolve this, and nothing that he should do."
Shoulda woulda coulda is at variance with reality. It is not unlikely that his opinion will sought. He may choose not to give one. I never suggested that he must do anything.
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54, guns.
"From whence comes this overly optimistic notion that the Republicans in Illinois are any less corrupt than their counterparts in the Democratic party?"
I agree with you. Corruption is an equal opportunity pursuit.
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Whether the President (elect) is "head" of the party is merely a semantic argument, not a substantive one. Obama will get to pick a chairman of the DNC to replace Dean. It's not a matter of power, but influence and tradition. He doesn't make an appointment; the chairman is elected. The function of the DNC is to get Democrats elected. If they do well with Obama's choice in 2010, fine. If they don't, the Democrats can elect a new chairman whether Obama likes him (or her) or not. Some people insist on using the term "head" to describe the relationship of the President to his party. I think it's a poor choice of words which confuses the issue. We will just have to agree to disagree.
Obama's influence with the DNC, by the way, began when he became the presumptive nominee, well before becoming president-elect. It's not automatic. Kerry, for example, had poor relations with the DNC. (You can google that.) The difference is that Obama is a better politician than Kerry.
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Re #67 happylaze,
By SCA, do you refer to the Society for Creative Anachronism? LOL. These people are indeed serious about their dynasties. And about knowing the correct names for Charlemagne's swords.
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73 EXACTLY
"did you call me BOB", I am Sir Bob, kneel you peasant"
PS most of their smiths are a joke.
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I just heard Blago utter on the radio "I have on my side the most powerful ally there is, the truth."
It brought to mind one Jonathan Aitkin, an ex Tory minister, who resigned to fight a libel case. He infamously invoked "the simple sword of truth and the trusty shield of British fair play". Infamous, because the shield didn't prevent the sword from stabbing him. He was found to be lying.
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As a Repulican living in Springfield and who has worked in Illinois government most of his adult life, I am surprised at how uninformed you are as a reporter about Illinois. Doesn't the BBC do ANY research before spouting off?
The Illinois constitution mandates that the Governor APPOINT vacant senatorial seats because the Senator is assumed to represent the state, not the voting constituents. Kinda hard to get around a constitutional mandate in just a few weeks or even a few months. Especially as long as the Governor and the Lieutenant Governor (his successor) are against a special election.
As a Republican, I'd LOVE to see a special election. But it isn't going to happen without a lot of legal maneuvering that may call the legality of the election into question.
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54 J-i-D, 55 Seans
About the cost of elections ...
Although my view is that they should follow the process currently set out by law, and not follow some ad hoc process that results in a special election, the thing is that in general of all the monies spent by the state, the money spent on elections (and the civic values that go with them and that they in turn reinforce, assuming that the results are then observed) has a return on investment that dwarfs all other types of spending.
Note, for example, the death toll in the Burma, or that there is now a cholera outbreak in Zimbabwe. Can't remember the last time there was a cholera outbreak in Switzerland, Finland, ...
Elections are inexpensive. They are a habit that, once gained, has huge long lasting positive externalities.
58 Guns, 71 Marbles.
True enough, although in some places and times, the opportunity is all one sided: Huey P. Long.
One point: How is it that this fellow is hanging on, but Spitzer was out in an instant?
Let me get this straight: powerful men who have a taste for, and can afford, the pleasure of young pretty women, (concubines, mistresses, plural wives, harems), price being no object seemingly, are so unheard of in recorded history that we find it intolerably scandalous, whereas the apparent attempt to sell a public office for personal advantage is well, somehow not quite so urgent.
That is, large sexual appetite in elected officials (which might be irrelevant to performance, or perhaps invigorating, Clinton, Kennedy, Tito, Catherine the Great, King Solomon?) is fatal, wheras dishonesty (which can't possibly be relevant to positions of public trust, can it now) isn't?
What am I missing here?
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IF, sexual dishonesty hints at a character flaw, which means that other types of dishonesty may by possible. It's unknown, so feared.
Being dishonest in other ways is clearly being dishonest, is out in the open, and therefore perfectly acceptable. We'll all human, after all. Hope that clears it up for you.
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glenbarrington (#76), if you would do some research yourself, you might find that the procedure for filling vacancies in the US Senate seats in Illinois is defined in ordinary statutes, not in the sata constitution.
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs.asp
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77, interested.
"One point: How is it that this fellow is hanging on, but Spitzer was out in an instant?"
As to Spitzer, it is all the fault of the Puritans. You planted them here and we have suffered hypocracy and sanctimony ever since. Please take them back.
As to the tapes, where Blago talks of making deals for the seat, this is not a crime in any sence of the word. It's just talk. There would have to be evidence that a deal actually went through, that money changed hands or services were rendered or favors exchanged. (As to the last, that is business as usual in politics.)
Although it seemed stupid of the FBI to step in at this time, they probably did it to prevent a sale of the seat.
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80 marbles this is good.
sound reason
"
As to the tapes, where Blago talks of making deals for the seat, this is not a crime in any sence of the word. It's just talk. There would have to be evidence that a deal actually went through, that money changed hands or services were rendered or favors exchanged. (As to the last, that is business as usual in politics.) "
and nice perspective.
Although it seemed stupid of the FBI to step in at this time, they probably did it to prevent a sale of the seat.
great composition:)
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Ms Marbles,
I understand that their hand was forced by impending press publication....(media had so far agreed to keep schtum, but ...) I think they would have preferred to wait for a 'sting', but were about to be 'blown'.Peace and gangster slang
ed
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http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm
i implore everyone to send an email comment directly to the office of the governor. i personally asked him to resign!
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I have been hiding out in manchester but returning to chicago on sunday while gone I have had time to contemplate the gov's strategy....wait until the obama is sworn in ...fitzgerald is replaced by a democrat and then cut the deal . chicago politics at its best!
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Political alignment of forces is in no doubt. Initial attack initiated by two Madigans with eager to assume bigger role not-so-loyal Quinn supported by patrician (?) Fitzgerald seem to wane in significance. Blago seems to have greater support in judicial circles , and not only, than previously anticipated. Impeachment based on slimy, petty accusations is already ridiculed. Under these circumstances, questionable is the insistence of Quinn, who already sees hinmself in the governor's shoes, as the right person to pick Obama's replacement in the Senate instead of choosing popular mode as means of such selection. But... the agressive camp of Blago's foes want to
pick the next senator without interference from citizens. Wouldn't it be the best show of force to any present, new or in-the-making opponents of theirs who factually rules Illinois?
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Someone on this board emphasises costs associated with elections of Obama's replacement. I would deemphasise the costs. Costs would be - and I have Illinois budget in mind - relatively minor. Important is that if Gov. Blagojevich is denied his right to choose Obama's replacement, the election process is the only satisfactory option for the citizens of the state. Lieutenant governor Pat Quinn, in actuality his boss'es turncoat, should in no way decide who ought to represent people of Illinois in U.S. Senate. Pat Quinn and his cohorts would like to portray that such decision transfer (from governor to him) is a natural one, dictated by nothing but costs. To me the whole thing looks more like a coup d'etat.
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Rod Blagojevich claims he is innocent. He should submit to a polygraph. If his answers are consistent, the Federal Government must drop this case.
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Re #87 Steve-Beacon,
I take it you are unaware how easy it is to throw off a polygraph. They are pretty laughable when employed against those without conscience.
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lawchicago (#84), I'm guessing Fitzgerald won't be replaced while this matter is pending. There is no advantage to Obama in appearing to interfere. He should let it take its course.
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it is customary that the US attorneys submit resignations when a new president takes office . I think fitzgerald's may be accepted .
alas with gratitude and thanks for his commitment to the office he will be shown the door along with the vast majority if not all of the republican appointed us attorneys
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'adds up to nothing' ? Mmm... With Blagojevich playing hardball and Nadhmi Auchi in the background [look him up on Wikileaks] I'm not sure I'd jump to that conclusion quite so quickly..
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Part of the reason for the ability of the Governor to appoint should there be a vacancy is to do it quickly. There was a push to fill the Obama seat before the newly elected Senators were sworn in. That would give the new Illinois Senator seniority over quite a few people. Seniority is important in the Senate for committee appointments and a number of other things that affect the influence and effectiveness of the Senator. Unfortunately Blago's stupidity has lost this potential edge for the people of Illinois.
It is also important to note that Blago has been under investigation for quite a few years. Fitzgerald had him arrested to stop pending ab uses, those were the only ones listed on the indictment. Based on the Rezko convictions the final list of charges will be shockingly long.
Stay tuned.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Rod Blagojevich should insist that his accusers submit to polygraphs. If they fail the tests, there is no case. The criminal case assumes that the witnesses will testify that Blagojevich asked for bribes. If the Government's case cannot be verified, then the Judge should dismiss the charges.
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There is no need for polygraph tests. These are not considered as determinants of anyone's truthfulness in the eyes of the Law anyway. Detecting the true "weight'' or rather shalowness of one's accusations is simple. Did you notice that unlike clear cut Spitzer case in New York the case against Blago is so far relegated to public pronouncements of "expletive deleted" by "patrician" Fitzgerald? That shows the character of the accusers. No true substance but insinuation of grand sins and the only PROOF of not gentlemanly language. Such presentation can indeed fool masses but I doubt it will fool intelligentsia ( courts among others). It is obious that prosecution always have more trumphs up their sleeves. They can coerce others to testify as they please in order to win cases. Anyone who doubts that this happens should examine the fate of those who until not long ago occupied death row in Illinois but ultimately were recognized as innocent of crimes that put them in prison in the first place. I just hope Blago has some powerful high cards of his own and that ultimately truth and justice will prevail in this grab-for-power political game.
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#86. passtorian: "Costs would be - and I have Illinois budget in mind - relatively minor."
I can't see that $35 or $50 million can in any way be considered "minor". A new senator would not be seated until the spring, in which case there is more than enough time for the Governor to resign, be impeached or otherwise removed from office. His deputy can then take the reins - including the appointment of a new Senator.
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All U.S. senate replacements should be elected by the will of the people as we do with our U.S. representatives. This cuts out the tempation of governors for hanky panky.
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Any laborer who makes , let say, $30,000.00 annually will not perceive $30 -$50 mil. costs as minor. Yet, there are many individuals in Illinois that make easy couple of millions yearly. And there are quite few who gobble yearly more that the whole contest of choosing the senator would take. So yes stakes are high but costs of the correct manner to pick a representative of Illinois to the US Senate are minor. Pat Quinn is a long timer in Illinois politics but does he truly represent interest of the people of Illinois?
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There is something kind of satisfying about the term 'non-Palin'.
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Normally the procedure is for the governor to appoint a senator until the next scheduled federal election, this time in 2010. As for House members, vacancies are fillied by special elections called by the governor. The Senate still has a more exclusive setup. Prior to 1913 Senators were elected by their state legislators. The Senate has always been rather clubby.
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ahhh, greetings from across the pond. Just so all you fellas know, not all of us Colonists are so keen on BHO to start with. With that said, I really doubt he PERSONALLY had anything to do with the fire sale for his vacant seat. Not even he is that stupid. However, a key player in his election, Jesse Jackson Jr, now that is another story altogether. He and his papa, Jesse Sr., are apparently up to their eyeballs trying to buy their way in. Which, goes to show the quality of who BHO is surrounding himself with.
So, me and the other 44% of the US that didn't vote for this liar-come-lately will just sit back and watch him squirm while the American, and World, Press try to figure out how to spin in it so he looks good as he crawls into office.
Cheerio!
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I wish Roland Burris had not been selected by the governor. Burris has a good reputation which has been tarnished by this selection.
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NPR HAD AN INTERVIEW WITH GOV JAMES THOMPSON (REPUBLICAN GOV OF ILLINOS FOR 14 YEARS, WITH AN UNSULLIED REPUTATION) HE DECLARED WITHOUT EQUIVOCATION THAT BLAGOVICH IT IS PERFECTLY CORRECT AND PROPER IN MAKING THE APPOINTMENT (BLAGO IS INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY, HE HASN'T EVEN BEEN INDICTED!) AND THAT ACCORDING TO US SUPREME COURT PRECEDENT THE US SENATE MAY ONLY QUESTION THE APPOINTEE'S QUALIFICATIONS AS TO CITIZENSHIP AND AGE(QUALIFICATIONS STIPULATED IN THE US CONSTITUTION). I SUBMIT TO YOU THAT VERY LITTLE ATTENTION IS BEING PAID TO THE LAW HERE. POLLS AND PUBLIC OPINION ARE NOT THE LAW OF THE LAND AND NEED TO ASSUME THEIR PROPER PLACE.
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This isn't a case for public opinion; it's a case for the Constitution. Our 17th Amendment took away the rights of state legislatures to select 2 Senators, and gave it to the people in the form of popular elections. However, it also specified that vacancies could be filled by those state legislations but they could grant that right to the state's chief executive (Governor). Illinois did just that.
From the Illinois Laws:
(10 ILCS 5/25-8) (from Ch. 46, par. 25-8)
Sec. 25-8. When a vacancy shall occur in the office of United States Senator from this state, the Governor shall make temporary appointment to fill such vacancy until the next election of representatives in Congress, at which time such vacancy shall be filled by election, and the senator so elected shall take office as soon thereafter as he shall receive his certificate of election.
(Source: Laws 1943, vol. 2, p. 1.)
There is no debate to be had. Sen. Burris has a right to take the seat, as he has been duly appointed by the governor. We do not permit laws ex post facto in the United States, and that is what would be required in this case. Sen. Reid, bowing to public opinion, is trampling on our Constitution to try to get a favorable election outcome in 2010. For that, he should be brought up on formal charges and removed from the Senate himself.
The Constitution supercedes Sen. Reid's and Pres-elect Obama's opinions on the matter.
--JD
www.offeringcommonsense.blogspot.com
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#89, 90
Gentlemen,
Fitzgerald is a straight shooting equal opportunity prosecutor. He should stay. The nonsenseof the last 8 years of idealogical appointments needs to stop. We need the best (wo)man for the job, whatever job. Fitzgerald is one of those.
Counselor Sam
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Fitzgerald straight shooter? Maybe, in the past. It seems that lately he is simply erratic if not arrogant. Feeling of power does this sometimes to people. Picture this. They arrested Blago at dawn when most of the city sleeps, put the cuffs on him and dragged him from his house like a common criminal while the rest of his family slept! The governor of the state. The person that is not only the highest ranking persona in the state but also a person that is neither insane nor a murderer. Yes, this picture deserves Gulag Evil Empire notoriety. Does this whole scene look like the proper treatment of top executive in a member state of these United States? And then - this "straight shooter" is asking for the extention of time to gather sufficient info (read: to twist enough arms to fabricate a successful case) for prosecution of the governor. So let me ask - what grounds this prosecutor had to publicly accuse the governor of anything when he had not and still has no sufficient grounds to do so? Is it too difficult to comprehend that Mr. Fitzgerald exhibits questionable and plainly unethical behaviour? I think media gives that man more credit than the man deserves. Chicago Tribune has grapes with Blago and their current presentation of the issue is for obvious reasons not favorable to the governor. His second in command, back stabber Quinn already openly predicts on CNN when his boss will be impeached! All this at the time when a state senate commitee assigned to find whether grounds for impeachment exist! And several commitee members who are to recommend whether Blago will face impeachment or not are already exposed as Governor' s long time enemies! Talk about justice and impartiality. Fitzgerald seems to belong to the same "ethical" group. Baseless accusation to destroy one's career, followed by at-all-costs constructed case that would prove the"patrician's" infallability. Otherwise, blemish on his resume would be intolerable. Think of those from Illinois death row who avoided UNJUST death penalty but at the same time
put the black marks on many, until then, impeccable prosecutorial resumes.
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#109
Reverend,
What has the arrest time to do with the prosecutor? He merely asks for the warrant, it is up to the relevant law enforcement oficials to pick up the allbeged villain. They like to do this at dawn because;
a) Folks tend to be at home
b) Folks tend to be more passive
c) Folks tend not to have loaded their guns
As for behavior being questionable, any behavior is, by definition, able to be questioned. Often the questioner has issues, but nonetheless anything is questionable.
As for accusing, all Fitzgerald has done is lay out the charges (part of habeas corpus and sort of essential. The alternative being 'The governor has been nicked, but we're not telling you what for. Could be porn, corruption or a poor haircut'). It's also common practice for law enforcement to continue to build their case post arrest, in fact in some cases it is only possible post arrest.
Is this the right way to treat a chief executive? Yes. An office or position should have no bearing on the way the law treats you. He has allegedly done wrong, and he should be treated as such. Innocent until proven guilty, but processed like any other person protected by the constitution.h
Death penalty? Woof. Wrong tree.
Puppy Sam
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#103
Eros,
So apart from Jesse Jackson Junior not being a part of the Obama campaign, and there being no evidence of Obama having lied about anything, what is your point? That there are some folks who don't like Obama in the US? Hardly a surprise, Limbore is still on the air after all.
Confused Sam
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In a fervor to address the original question of "Why no special election in Illinois?" we tend, on occasion, to veer quite far away from the subject matter.Yet, it may be a learning process for some and that is good. "There is a spelling Bee contest, but why there are not reasoning, logic, or ethics contests?", George Carlin once wondered.
While Mr.Webb's assumptions may carry some weight - in response to the original question , important is to note who are the players in Illinois politics and also to point out that the accusers of Mr. Blagojevich are good numbers who in no way would be accepted into the sainthood. What we witness is the political fight for power with participants that are egocentric and opportunistic. I cannot detect honor or honesty in the side that trumpets the most. I wonder if Chicago Tribute will exhibit equal opportunity standards and allow Mr. Blagojevich its pages/exposure time to present his side of the story? I seriously doubt that will ever happen. Another behind scene player in this drama - Bank of America. As you recall Blago alienated this entity with the threat that the state will stop doing business with them if they do not adhere to obligations they had toward failing furniture factory whose workers were denied entitlements they earned. Bank of America was to loose several hundreds of million of dollars if Blago kept the promise. Bank of America rescinded its decision and provided credits to that company but good intention on the part of Governor created another powerful enemy.
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Why not special election in Illinois?
Why should special election be held?
Governor made the selection to which he was entitled. Entitled - that is the main word.
Governor also made a good selection.
That selection consternated lot of people, including his opportunistic enemies.
All that happened a) when prosecutor Fitzgerald seeks extention of time to cook charges against governor and b) after the Supreme Court of Illinois declared the governor sound and capable to govern.
Important questions that should be posed is:
a) why Majority leader in the Senate makes silly pronouncements about accepting a new senator from Illinois based on hearsay and,
b) why president elect Obama takes sides without knowing facts either?
I suspect I know the answer to the second question - Obama knows that Fitzgerald ( or any other prosecutor involved in Illinois case of that magnitude) may, for political reasons cook up a case quite detrimental for any political aspirant, including future president. Shrewed game or opportunism on part of Obama? We might find out not long from now.
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Why is there no mention of the part of history that includes the British refusal to turn over the country, post WWII, to the Israelis, e.g., the plan was to give Jordan, East of the Jordan River to the Arabs and to give Israel West of the Jordan River to the Jews. If that had been done, today there would be peace there.
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#114
In Chicago?
Confused Sam
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The situation in Illinois has everything to do with Chicago politics, i.e the "Machine", and we who live here in the Oligarchy by the Lake have not the will to oppose it let alone find any candidate other than a stooge to run against Mayor Richard II. Mr. Burris as the Senator-nominate is seen as one more in a long line of such candidates harking back. Its a joke.
To understand, read John Kass in today's Tribune
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-kass-burris-04-jan04,0,4054304.column
Its the real deal and Kass is a city treasure.
Hewton
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@112: The Republic Windows and Doors Co. and the BOA situation had a lot to do with the owners of RW&D forming a new corporation and purchasing a similar company in Iowa.
Where did the $$ for that deal come from? The company shut down its Chicago operation the day before the Iowa deal went through. My guess is that BOA financed the front end of the deal but didn't want to get involved in the blowback.
The vacation pay is mandated by state law, and the union, the IBEW, was probably stiffed on the health and pension benefits payable for the workers by the company.
Its more about union busting than a poor construction and housing sector company going out of business. They are back in business in Iowa. Hewton
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My problem is that I don't see that Blago has committed any crimes, unless stupidity and insensitivity have been made criminal while I wasn't looking. Perhaps a little cooling off period would be the wize thing to do and wait to see whether or not he is indicted. In America, people are still supposedly innocent until proven guilty!
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Justin Webb has revealed his political leanings. Obama not in office yet and already the carpers like Web are chipping away at a future administration. Were I American I would lean towards being Republican, however I am like many, captivated by Obama's vision, transparency and perceived integrity.
President Elect Obama does not need the Illinois Senate nominee, nor should he. That State was part of the movement that sent him to the White House
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No need for a special election. The law states that the Governor can appoint a replacement if under two years remain on the original (Obama) term. In two years the appointed Senator will go before the voters. It may interest you to know that originally ALL Senators were appointed by the Governor's of the several states. This was to ensure that the States were represented in the Federal Government. Direct election(17th Amendment) has denuded the States of this protection which is why we see no statesmen in DC and creeping Federalism.
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I find this discussion rather intrigueing.
During the election Obama did not disclose any real policies or insights yet won the election partly due to the US press being so solidly on his side in spite of his refusal to meet normally with them and answer some of their few hard questions.
In this interim period he has been totally silent on all the disasters around us, with his followers using the excuse that he is busy choosing his team.
Now the US press will really have something to complain about when he surrounds himself with his Chicago pals and Clintonists, as their true access will be even more restricted and controlled.
Perhaps there is justice after all.
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So the dems now see fit to seat Burris because his paperwork is now in order. Nothing to do with their not having a leg to stand on in their ridiculous attempt at a stance to nowhere, of course. Sorry, but would someone who actually voted for Harry Reid explain what on earth he is doing in the senate?
I support the attempt democratize the world. I just wish that the US would set a better example of how it's meant to work.
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