The durable American brand
"The business of America is business," said President Calvin Coolidge and every American - even those who have never heard of the 30th president - almost instinctively know that's true. Vast areas of America are set aside for nothing but buying and selling - strip malls they call them, though they are less exciting than they sound. Amongst this orgy of trade, noted by Coolidge but noted as well by almost everyone who has ever had anything to say about America, live the brands that America has made and sold to itself and to the world.
In a nation where trade is so important and so much a part of the psyche the great American brands really do stand as icons: smash them and you play with the mental health of generations who seek stability and meaning in the malls.
So this week has been doubly tough. It began with the news that the company that owns the Los Angeles Times and the Chicago Tribune - two of the great newspapers of record here - is filing for bankruptcy. the Tribune was the one Harry Truman held aloft when it announced - wrongly, but famously - Dewey Defeats Truman, in the 1948 election. The papers are not imminently in danger of closing but young reporters hoping for Woodward/Bernstein-like careers will probably be looking elsewhere. And that of course is what the papers' readers have been doing for sometime - the brands are still big, but the readership isn't.
The same is the case of the car giants. Ford and General Motors and Chrysler signs are everywhere -- you can walk around areas of the outer suburbs of some cities and wonder what would be left if they went - but the readers, as it were, the riders, have been deserting them for years.
This leads some to wonder at the crisis of the American brand. I must say I think such rumination is unnecessary. These are psychologically painful times for America. But who would bet against the brands of tomorrow being just as prominent here and just as homegrown? You don't even have to mention Google or Apple - they're old hat. The whole point of America is that stuff is popularised here - not created often, but crated and sold and branded. I saw a picture this week of a flexible paper like computer display - made entirely of plastic. It's tomorrow's technology and, perhaps, tomorrow's brand. And it's been made at the University of Arizona. American brands are dying this week - and being born .....
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"...the mental health of generations who seek stability and meaning in the malls."
Gads, that's depressing, embarrassing, and true.
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As a perhaps atypical American, I don't even particularly find myself caring about the American brand. In a world where there are islands only in a geographical sense (my investments are primarily foreign and they're tanking just as badly as Dow), there's nothing more American than picking the best brand whether it's ours or not.
The spirit of America is in innovation, invention, ingenuity, and so on. The spirit of America is not in preserving corporate dynasties simply because they're located on our soil. I see that as misplaced patriotism. An American patriot is proud of American principles and not blindly loyal to current practice. An American patriot loves, for example, that our nation is supposed to be secular even though, by some accounts, it fails in that regard. And an American patriot loves innovation in industry whether it comes from Michigan or Japan.
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"Vast areas of America are set aside for nothing but buying and selling - strip malls they call them."
Strip malls are akin the old British "parades" where half-a-dozen small businesses operate. Typically there might be a 7-11, a fast food store, a dry-cleaner, possibly an ice-cream or frozen yogurt shop, all very similar to current "precincts" in the UK. These are convenience stores and quite unlike major shopping malls where buying and selling is the order of the day.
The UK has adopted the "mall" - for example, The Oracle in Reading, as a copy of the American counterpart, in many cases replacing old High Street shopping areas. Here in California, whole new "town centres" have grown up, The Grove in Los Angeles and Americana in Glendale - not to mention Universal CityWalk in Universal City. Despite the upscale brand names, the goods for sale are just as likely to be made in China, Korea or some far-off nation; there is not an abundance of "Made in America" tags on clothing or other consumer items.
The "American Brand" is illusory and outsourcing is to blame; the American consumer is concerned with price, and if the item is reasonably satisfactory and priced appropriately, no-one complains about where it was made. I think I am correct in saying that no major brand of television receiver is made in the USA - those famous American names of yesteryear, for example, Magnavox, RCA and GE, are all made abroad. "The great American brands" are no longer "Made in America" - perhaps only the Detroit automobile industry is the last vestige of that once hallowed phrase for there is precious little else that is - even our eggs come from Mexico!
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Mr. Webb may have touched the pulse of a living America, or he may he been recalling a past America.
In the Viet Nam War era, the military started using flip charts to describe what they had done.
Quickly, the flip charts assumed precedence over reality.
That seems to have passed on to corporate and financial management.
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This recession could be good for us. Maybe it will help us remember that there's a lot more to life than buying and selling. Hopefully we'll give up our obsession with brands and just learn to appreciate a good product regardless of the tag. Practically every decision in this country boils down to money somewhere. Maybe that will change and we'll start valuing time with our families above the value of money.
As my husband's grandpa liked to say, "A little pain now & then never hurt anybody".
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American brands, or the American Brand?
Most American brands that are thriving, like Apple, are, it seems to me, self consciously international. Made internationally, marketed internationally; their cosmopolitanism the essence of their cachet.
The American Brand, on the other hand, is not so grand.
Once upon a time, when I were very, very young, behemoths like this personified the very essence of success in North America -- a cultural fetish of the 'livin' the life' clan. Once upon a time, that is to say, the big American brands defined the American Brand of living the good life ("A car in the fridge/A fridge in the car/Like the Cowboys do, in TV land," as Joe Strummer would say. Now, not so much -- you need a German car. Or better yet, a Prius.
Are we living the end of the American Dream, at least as personified by a particularly expansive, extravagant consumerism? Or is our stuff now just going to come from different, international-ish brands?
I hope for the former (see Jeremy Rifkin, for example, on the rise of a European Dream, but suspect it may be a long journey through the latter to get anywhere near a significant re-thinking of the good life in North America. But that might just be my SAD talking . . .
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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David_Cunard (#3), it's not literally true that no American cares where things are made. I care. Not merely because I want the "Made in USA" label, but because, in many cases, the American product is better, and I want quality products, and the companies that make them, to survive. A good example is hand tools. I have tools which I bought decades ago, brands like Crescent, Diamond and Proto, which will last several lifetimes. A while back I bought a Red End folding ruler on e-Bay - a treasure, still as good as when it was made, probably 50 to 100 years ago. It's depressing to go into a hardware store and see all the Chinese junk tools they sell these days.
I've recently switched to Bills Khakis, made in USA (That's correct, no apostrophe.), and I'm sticking with them. My Optimo hat is hand made in Chicago. On the other hand, sometimes imported is better. A panama hat must come from Ecuador.
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#5 Josephina
Suggests that a recession/depression will bring about a reorientation of priorities and lifestyles.
Most of us would agree that such an adjustment of personal lifestyles is desirable.
Talking about such values and lifestyles could be an interesting discussion.
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#4. LesMajestey: "Mr. Webb may have touched the pulse of a living America, or he may he been recalling a past America."
The latter rather than the former, rather like a Frank Capra movie. Times have changed!
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#7 Gary_A_Hill
You are right to care about things made in America. Without that brand again abundantly evident in stores many Americans are not going to regain lost jobs.
Some time ago, having listened to Lou Dobbs on CNN rightly ranting on about outsourcing losing Americans their jobs, I wrote and suggested he ask CEOs of U.S. companies how they imagined Americans would be able to buy their now overseas-built products if they didn't have the jobs these bright sparks had 'outsourced'. That simple logic seemed (and still seems) to evade them.
I agree with your comment about Americans tools being superior to the imported. Many are. I, too, have tools that will last a few life-times, but by some misfortune also landed up with a few that were imported. The importer's name was on the container, not country of origin - but I suspect China. Couldn't understand why I could keep turning my socket wrench while a nut did not not unwind, only to discover that the junk sockets from overseas were opening up, splitting, or rounding inside.
American manufacturers need to return to producing quality products. If they can still do so with aircraft and tools, they can do it with other products, but they will never recover with the likes of over-paid, self-serving, dishonest, fat-cats at the helms of G.M., Ford, Chrysler, or AIG. The culture has got to change, but it won't unless there is a return to sound values.
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This is all very depressing, I'm going to hop in
my time machine with some stock market records,
and head back to the 50's to relive the american
dream.
I might pop in from time to time to pick up some
computer parts, though. Good luck, all.
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Americas worst Brand is their WAY OF LIFE
It has infected virtually the whole planet.
NOW is the time for a rethink?
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12. At 06:13am on 13 Dec 2008, alexandercurzon wrote:
"Americas worst Brand is their WAY OF LIFE
It has infected virtually the whole planet.
NOW is the time for a rethink?"
If our way of life is now your way of life than that's your fault, not ours. Stop stealing "our" way of life.
Moving on, Justin I really liked the "strip Mall" comment. Generally, they are crappy. I try to buy American, I want to support our country, our products and our workers. I realize it can be and is more expensive but, I think it's worth it. I don't think our innovation is gone. As you mentioned Apple, and Google are great examples. Also, may I add that Google is a good example of a company that has ethics and treats it's employees right. Microsoft and Starbucks are also American brands that have (at least in the past) been thriving. Tough times will bring about good innovation I think, hopefully. I believe 3 of these companies come right out of my home state of Washington.
As for the newspapers, that is a sad reality. My dad still reads the news paper but, it never caught on with me or really anyone of my age group. In the future I hope the American brand whatever it may be can be more environmentally friendly and spawn a whole new sector of jobs in the interest of the environment. I think it would be great if we could lead the way in this field. I think I just got hopeful...maybe.
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American branded produces look for markets in and outside the country but have been found failing to do so because of availability of Japan's brands that had been superseding those brands (American branded items) by quality as well as durability since last almost 20 years.
Moreover, China is doing excellent with its most economical branded products to beat out all other products of the whole world countries.
What would be the future of American brands and other country consumer items in near future is big question to the world!
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I agree with Justin that brands come and go. It's the nature of the Capitalist beast. The UK is having one of it's biggest brands, Woolworths (which was started by an American), closing down after trading for 99 years.
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Interesting. From what I know, the real loyalty is in sheer quality, like buying a truly decent pair of gloves that insulate well and don't get soaked easily. Since most USA brands are like that, at least the ones who display that fact prominently, I tend to buy American simply after examining the product itself.
What I can't understand is USA companies like Palladium (makers of the Rifts rpg) and the big 3 auto guys seem to get from shoddy craftsmanship. No matter how hard you try, if you buy food that was actually made in the USA, you know darned well that it's not got anything funny added to it. China etc try to sneak some by us, but we always catch them fairly quickly.
What a lot of merchants worldwide have somehow forgotten is this: Your reputation as a merchant for offering decent goods at a reasonable price is worth more than your weight in gold. Why is that? It's called word of mouth advertising, and it is by far the most powerful medium known to get people to buy something. We trust our friends far more than we trust a logo or brand name! If you impress the heck out of a customer, they don't just buy your product, they CONTINUE buying your product and are likely to recommend it to others. Do you want a quick profit, or do you want to be able to weather fate's maelstroms no matter what?
I vote for practicality and quality more than goofy appearance any day of the week. I'm guessing most of my USA countrymen do the same, given the results of the last election! I sure hope the big 3 recall this ethic, or they are DOD.
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#17:
Jeebers,
I share your thoughts (it's like you wrote from inside my head). Whether we are right or wrong can be judged by public opinion, but your main points are completely valid.
In my parents' generation, they were brand loyal and specific. I believe it's because the market was smaller for goods at that time, but also because quality was not questioned; generally it could be counted upon.
Fast forward to the 80s and early 90s when my husband and I were married, raising our own family and buying a home and cars (as they were needed, one at a time when previous cars failed). We bought from Detroit (mainly because we were both raised to believe that to buy foreign was unthinkably unpatriotic). After having owned new Chevrolet, then Ford, then Chrysler vehicles, we quickly shed our parents' "loyalty" because not one of the transmissions in these vehicles lasted beyond 40K miles, as well as other less costly repairs that didn't even outlast the warranties. Mazda(before merged with Ford) quickly became our brand of choice, followed by Toyota, all due to your main point that customer loyalty stems from quality of the product purchased and reputation built as a result.
When making a 20-30 thousand dollar investment in a vehicle, and when one Toyota has 215K miles, the other 78K, both without major repair beyond regular maintenance, we have no reason to shed Toyota loyalty because the company has proven its worth to us.
So,
I don't want to see the Big 3 collapse, but on the other hand I don't know how they can stay afloat. As you said, it's all about word of mouth reputation. JD Powers and Consumer Reports now ranks some US cars as equal to foreign cars, but for the life of me I just can't get rid of the doubt I have in US cars due to personal experience. I have a couple of cousins who would rather die than drive anything other than a Ford, but typically that type of loyalty has left the building, so to speak. Quality is of upmost importance, yes, but reputation of a company's quality when a customer is about to lay down such a large sum of money for a vehicle is paramount.
Justin's blog is littered this week with those who want to make this a "Republican hates the Unions" battle. This is erroneous in the extreme. I'll concede that there is no love lost between Republicans and the UAW, but currently President Bush is the one bucking his party to all but beg on his knees for money to save Detroit. (Truly an Alice down the rabbit-hole moment if there ever was one).
BUT--The significant battle is between automaker and customer, the former seemingly not aware that their reputations in the past preclude trust in the present. It simply isn't enough to scream loudly that you don't want to fail. Detroit automakers need to prove WHY their products should be kept alive beyond tradition and trademark.
Quality of product may now be comparable to foreign automakers, but quality of reputation may have already sunk the Big 3.
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Just thought I would chime in. Brands are all well and good but they don't tell the whole story on a products origins. Obviously the Made in "" tags will let you know who manufactured the product. But it doesn't tell who designed it.
You can look at both Toyota and BMW who have design centres with tens of thousands of American engineers working right here in the USA. Not to mention the fact that the Toyota Tundra is 80% made in America as are quite a few other foreign brand products.
There are many examples of this that you will most likely never hear about. Assembly and manufacturing is a base that is good to keep at least a little of for national security interest. But it is a job that is easily outsourced. People need to work on getting better educated and getting jobs of the future.
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American culture has been destroyed by street narcotics trafficked from the Middle East. Workers have lost their attitudes. They only care about hard liquor and illicit drugs. The United States is not competitive because this country cannot make quality products. Children are taught to drink alcohol and use chemicals like methamphetamine, LSD, PCP, heroin, and hashish. A local high school (Bishop McDevitt) is scheduled for destruction and a new school built in a religious community. Morality and work ethic will be the lesson for the students. This nation can return to economic prominence when moderation and rejection of street substance is the rule. Then, world markets would respect the American label.
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20, I dunno about that. I don't think various illegal drugs are behind out economic ills. Also, most illegal drugs of all types AND counterfeit bills come from Colombia. Surprised? It ain't the Middle East, all they have is oil.
BTW, the major "drug" is marijuana, which oddly enough is less harmful than our totally legal alcohol. The fact that it's illegal, like most drugs, is what fuels organized crime. Try reading up on Prohibition and Al Capone to find out what I mean. I say legalize it, then regulate and tax the heck out of the substance.
The major problem in our culture is that we tend to promote binge drinking style drug interaction. If you take a teen aside, explain exactly what the drug is doing to him/her, and let them experiment in a controlled environment, you are going to see most kids learn when to stop. OD' ing isn't fun.
While religion is a useful tool to help kids feel peer pressure to stop abusing themselves, it certainly isn't necessarily the most effective one. Instead of yelling "NO!" try plunking them down and explaining WHY this is a bad idea. Better yet, give them the situation and encourage them to figure it out, step by step, so they have the tools to get themselves out of a jam when you aren't around. Human curiosity combined with a lack of experience usually equates to a lot of bad decision making. Mark Twain once wrote that the fastest way to get someone to do something is to tell them not to do it!
20, I don't wish to be rude, but I think your post lacks a lot of perspective, it seems really narrow minded and generally ignorant of the real problem, which is what we teach our kids. Drugs are just a small part of it, as is a dedication to quality. The Middle East isn't the source of all evil, it's in each of us, it's just not as exciting as foreign terrorists.
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# 76 Jeebers
The vast sums spent on attempting to stop drug production and consumption and the consequent building of prisons, etc., are unbelievably high.
The foray into politics of the evangelicals gave us Prohibition and permanent, large-scale organized crime. Repeal of Prohibition vastly the corruption.
Drug-related crime is a problem because it pays the criminals so well. Administering drugs on prescription in Public Health Administration clinics would wipe out nearly all the excess costs of enforcement and destroy the whole drug network.
The remmanants will then go into prostitution, illegal immigration, etc. as occurred with the Repeal of Prohibition.
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Several months ago, Phil Graham was roundly criticized for claiming that we are becoming a nation of whiners.
Times are tough and like most of the people I am feeling the stress and pain.
But I don't think we need to feel nostalga for brands or icons that can't meet new challenges.
I am not going to miss retailers or manufacturers who got fat and lazy.
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#20: Respecting your right to opinion, I'm struggling to find the evidence that supports it. Heroine is "far east" import; meth and marijuana are home-grown in a large sense. Cocaine (shipped from our own western hemisphere) seems to be a far greater choice than does LSD and PCP. I just don't see the Middle East dependence.
With regard to children being taught to drink and do drugs, I'm assuming you aren't referring to parents. If your inference of blame is toward US movies, some genres of music and the Hollywood influence, I suppose I cannot disagree.
Jeebers, I used to agree with your statement that allowing kids to use alcohol would put a stop to future use. Then my brother-in law and his wife put it into practice (with that same motivation). Each summer vacation they bought various bottles and alcoholic beverages, allowing their 3 teenagers to indulge even to excess.
I now have 2 young teenage nephews who love to drink and get drunk, misguidedly thinking they now have their parents stamp of approval, and are stealing money from their parents in order to get their older friends to buy booze for them. This is just one case, however, and perhaps not indicative of most.
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Thanks, Mr. Webb, for a thoughtful essay.
It had a very healthy effect on us all here: Notice how many of the posts, in one form or another, are on the subject of the cultural and ethical values we have embraced as Americans, and how we may truly need to re-examine them, and ourselves?
I hope we make good use of this period of history, this painful period we are entering, to do the hard work of looking in the mirror, individually and corporately. And I hope we decide, that it the midst of inevitable change, that certain values never go out of date.
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#24, thank goodness that we're not dependent
on the Middle East for drugs!
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post 13 ladycm
As ive just bought a Mustang i am not
against.
Its the BUSH era thats turned us Brits off
plus being swamped by USA culture.
Were you aware any Brit can be extradited
to the USA for even say making a payment
via an american bank,sending an email or
making a phone call.
Thats how MUCH we have been swallowed
BY AMERICA.
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labcoat samuri I do like your postings .
You have joined this forum with what seems like an accurate view of the protagonists here.
Keep up the nice posts
this is a nice place to debate 80% of the time.
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26 well they do make good opium I hear.;)
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on to drugs,
prescription drug use up to worrying levels as some docs would say.(i'd agree)
yesterday the morning shows were on about how many kids are on prescriptions. it was just a tad higher than the kids.
You teach them to pop a pill they will.
Now as an Pothead hippy I will blame that alcohol (which BTW some might be interested to know when blaming " street narcotics trafficked from the Middle East. " that the middle east is not the most alcoholic area of the planet).
But then what would I know.
I do know I first smoked pot when I was a little tipsy on booze.
I do know that when high I never thought "yea, I'll try some of that"
thatw as saved for being drunk.
Same with most people I suspect.
Alcohol is the gateway not Pot.
And as other point out the prohibition is what creates criminals.
But carry on sticking your head in the sand.
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24, that's terrible! Why haven't the parents explained their stance? Do they know what is happening? And why would anyone allow their kids to go to excess like that? Just explaining that alcohol kills irreplaceable brain cells when drunk to excess should have slowed them down! Moreover, if they are spending time with older people who are willing to provide them with drinks, then they are already hanging out with the wrong sort of crowd. Whatever happened to friends caring for your welfare? That's what I'd like to ask your nephews.
I just wish there were some way their parents would step up and have a serious chat with them. Kids aren't stupid, but they don't have the capacity to really think ahead even though they look like adults. Their forebrains are still developing, the frontal lobes...
This goes EXACTLY to what I was saying about talking to your kids instead of blanketly issuing decrees. I wish I could help your nephews, somehow...
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A World Made by Hand
Kunstler saww it all coming
Peace and living locally
ed
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Never mind American brands, when there are more important subjects to discuss, namely:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7780323.stm
"Webb in 'back to the UK' shocka"...?
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Justin - absolutely delighted for you that you seem to have a new role but purely personally speaking I have to say I'm gutted! I'd never regularly read any blogs until I started reading this one and I'll greatly miss your inputs. You've been fantastic and I wish you loads of luck in the wilds of Radio 4! You might even convert me on my drive to work.
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#27. alexandercurzon: "As ive just bought a Mustang i am not against.
Its the BUSH era thats turned us Brits off plus being swamped by USA culture."
Which leads me to ask why you bought one of the iconic American automobiles, a Mustang? Running an American car in Britain must have some cachet and I can only assume you enjoy the extra attention your vehicle receives. A BMW would be too ordinary and so it would appear that you have, in all senses, bought into "USA culture."
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Re: 32 Ed
See Kunstler speaking, as only Kunstler does, on a subject dear to my heart: suburbia as a the greatest mis-allocation of resources in human history.
It is long, but entertaining and very thought provoking.
Note that the sponsor is, ahem, BMW.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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Made in the USA is becoming a rarety. The unfortunate truth is that even when we purposely try to buy American we have no choice but to give up on that goal for the simple reason that many products are no longer built in the USA. Electronics, garments, toys and other products are made mostly in Asia. Many of the fruits and veggies we consume come from Mexico, Central America, and Chile. Half the vehicles we drive are built by foreign companies (and that could increase to 100% if Sens. Shelby and Corker have their way).
There are still a few strongholds such as Boeing, MICROSOFT, GE, the war machine, and agriculture with special focus on cereals, but at the rate we outsource our business and export our technology to improve the "bottom line" there may be nothing left within a few years.
It will not be long before our politicians have to change their tune regarding dependence on oil imports from countries that don't like us very much, to dependance on imports to satisfy ALL our needs from countries that don't like us very much.
Yes, we often reinvent ourselves, new industries emerge, there are many opportunities in the biomed and green fields, but will they be enough to satisfy the needs of 300 million people?
I am afraid that unless something changes very soon most of us will depend on jobs servicing each other, and on continuous warfare to survive. Alas, Halliburton and Blackwater USA recruiting offices may be the last vestiges of true American enterprise in our strip Malls...next to McDonald's.
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#37. chronophobe: "See Kunstler speaking, as only Kunstler does, on a subject dear to my heart: suburbia as a the greatest mis-allocation of resources in human history."
It's all very well to denigrate suburbia, tract homes and an automobile culture, but where are families supposed to live? High density housing is certainly not the answer. "The American Dream" is usually considered to include home ownership, a single family residence, not a condo in a high-rise building. The Kunstlers of the world never propose a viable alternative but pontificate from their leafy homes - in this case a township of less than 30,000 inhabitants - and presume to tell the rest of America how wrong everything is. The vast amount of land available contributes to urban sprawl, and that is something that cannot be changed. Young families want new, affordable, homes and these are only to found beyond traditional townships. But even those may have been considered "sprawl" at one time, mitigated only by the effluxion of time.
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David,
The end of oil to drive between these sprawled out places is also "something that cannot be changed", and, as many a parent has had to reply, "'I want' doesn't get."Your response is exactly that of a 'spoiled' child. A refusal to face reality and engage in any new thinking.
Where's that Einstein again?, And we can neither create energy nor matter.....No Free Lunches
Peace and commonsense
ed
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Brands are CDOs: collateralised dream obligations
...
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#40. Ed Iglehart: "David, Your response is exactly that of a 'spoiled' child. A refusal to face reality and engage in any new thinking."
You are wrong. I am facing reality because that is what the public demands - not just in the USA but also in the UK; how many thousands of new houses has the present government promised to be built on what were previously 'green belts'? In my childhood home, a rural Berkshire village with one small shop and a post office, hundreds of horrid new houses have been built - market forces (demand) being the reason.
Like Mr Kunstler, you don't suggest any alternative, but prefer to tell those (who still live in the USA) where our lives and habitat should be. No doubt in the wilds of Scotland you are immune from the problems of city living - as far as I can tell, you don't commute to work and thus do not suffer the realities of more prosaic working life. Presumably when you need to go to a larger town, you drive a car, which, if you did not live in such a remote part, would be unnecessary. Why then is it OK for you to live beyond a metropolitan area but it is impermissible for others to do the same? Artists and writers are not immune to the rules the rest of us follow.
Oil doesn't only fuel transportation but the power we use daily. When enough electricity can be generated by alternate means your argument will be invalid. Even now more fuel-efficient vehicles are being made, and at the moment, the supply of oil is not going to vanish in our lifetime - or even in the next two generations. I'm more than willing to engage in new thinking, but telling America where it can live simply will not wash. When you move to a big town and walk everywhere, perhaps I might revise my thinking.
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Mo. 18 "...After having owned new Chevrolet, then Ford, then Chrysler vehicles, we quickly shed our parents' "loyalty" because not one of the transmissions in these vehicles lasted beyond 40K miles, as well as other less costly repairs that didn't even outlast the warranties. ..."
I am amazed to hear that. I lived in Australia for many years and the two of the best cars one could buy were the Holden (GMH) Commodore, and the Ford Fairmont Ghia. Poetry in motion to drive, the pair of them, they looked stunning AND the automatic transmissions lasted forever. Put it this way, 200,000km on the clock and you could still find a willing buyer for them.
I would say American brands are not only alive and kicking but export very well, which surely must point to their durability. For instance, Walmart (Asda over here in the UK). Hershey Bars, Starbucks, MacDonalds, the jumbo jet, Windows, Google, Bruce Springsteen, American movies and TV. It's so snooty to denigrate any of these, considering we probably don't want to live without them.
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hey!, to all you eco-warriors out there: don't worry, the earth will be fine without us ...
; )
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Re: 39. David_Cunard
David,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
Kunstler is a gadfly, in the Socratic mode (and Ed, is, well, Ed , in his own Socratic mode. . . ). My interest in him comes from the fact that he provokes us to think about the consequences of our current course, as well as to consider new options.
Full disclosure: I am a city guy. Frankly, I don't understand why people trade an intensively rich life in a convivial, cultured, densely structured urban core for what Kunstler calls "cartoon houses in a cartoon countryside."
No, that's not true. I do understand the trade off, as I have considered it myself (and I know many who have made the choice).
It is, as you say, in the burbs that one can afford a bigger, smarter, detached house (square footage, ammenities, + the ideal of independence). People also tend to convince themselves that the "country" life is somehow better for their kids; better schools, perhaps, or more opportunities for "healthy" activities or lifestyles.
What I think people fail to consider are the costs, both material and spiritual, of suburban life. Driving, or even taking the train, etc., for 2 to 4 hours everyday is hard on you, hard on your relationship with your spouse, hard on your kids. It is also not terribly conducive to a sense of community.
Many people, to be sure, deal with this psychic tension well. Many others, though, do not.
It is of course a value judgement I am making when I say there is a structural flaw in the suburban way of life. But I am willing to make it, not as a certainty, but as a point of contention: a life lived in cars driving between work and shopping malls (and between schools, and hockey/soccer practices, and far flung play dates, etc.) is far from an ideal form of human living.
What has still to be considered, moreover, are the material, or environmental costs. In the long term things certainly cannot continue as they are now. The real question is, how do we deal with this in the short and medium term.
Do we assume that technology will save us; that hydrogen, or bio-fuel, or nuclear generated electricity for electric cars, will allow for continued suburban expansion? Is investment in (grossly underdeveloped, compared to Japan, or most of Europe) public transit infrastructure the best solution? Or are ideas of urban densification, the "Copehagenisation" of our urban spaces, the way forward?
My own inclination is to stress public transit, and urban densification (the new urbanism)
This would definitely involve a change in expectations: a radical re-definition of the post-war (North) American dream. What needs to be encouraged is, for example, quality access to non mass media culture, open, accessible public spaces, down-scaled commercial spaces (main street, the farmer's market, artisanal scale industry) and smaller, simpler living spaces within town and city cores.
Now, many will disagree. That's great, but let's get this discussion of how we want the future to look started. Stumbling ahead as if we can just keep going with the way things have been for the past 60 odd years leads down a dead end street, I think.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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David,
"I want" doesn't get.You obviously didn't watch the talk.
I wouldn't bet on it
Peace
ed
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re: 44 selfevidenttruths
Glad to see you back!
Re: 46 Ed
Ed, I much prefer this young lady's account of the peak oil thing.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko, all hot and oily
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27. At 5:05pm on 13 Dec 2008, alexandercurzon wrote:
post 13 ladycm
"As ive just bought a Mustang i am not
against.
Its the BUSH era thats turned us Brits off
plus being swamped by USA culture."
I can roll with that. We have many cultures within America however, and I think people forget about that. I understand about Visa payments... you are fowarded to America for those over the phone? I am forwarded to India. I think people also discount how America has the ability to re-invent inself, hopefully we can start doing that with an Obama administration. Each person has their own choice as to what culture they want to adhere to, I will not accept that America has taken over other countries cultures.
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20. At 2:03pm on 13 Dec 2008, Steve-Beacon wrote:
"American culture has been destroyed by street narcotics trafficked from the Middle East. Workers have lost their attitudes. They only care about hard liquor and illicit drugs. "
This is a joke.
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43. At 01:42am on 14 Dec 2008, treesea
"...the Ford Fairmont Ghia. Poetry in motion to drive, the pair of them, they looked stunning AND the automatic transmissions lasted forever. Put it this way, 200,000km on the clock and you could still find a willing buyer for them. "
There are many cars that American makers produce that cannot be sold here or arent' for one reason or another (I think for American safety standards) but anyways; we had an explorer that went over 200k and still ran great.
"Hershey Bars, Starbucks, MacDonalds, the jumbo jet, Windows, Google, Bruce Springsteen..."
The boss is one of our greatest exports.
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#46. Ed Iglehart: "I am facing reality because that is what the public demands "
"I want" doesn't get."
Ah, but it does. If it were not so, how do you explain the numbers of houses being built in both the UK and the USA? It's because that's what consumers want - and the customer is always right.
"Like Mr Kunstler, you don't suggest any alternative"
What's your alternative? Mr Kunstler has his own ideas, but what are yours? It's no good telling us how wrong everything and everyone else is unless you can provide some kind of practical suggestion.
Regarding oil, a pity you didn't see Leslie Stahl's piece for 60 Minutes on CBS, (transcript here) in which Khalid Abdulqader, the plant manager, said it will take more than 50 years to deplete the field. That's as much as three generations from the present date. Apart from any "green" considerations, it's not that the US wants to abandon fossil fuels, it just doesn't want to be dependent on foreign suppliers, suppliers who could well hold the USA hostage financially. Only when automobile manufactures abandon the internal combustion engine will real progress be made. But then, what of the shipping and airline industries; when oil does eventually run out, as it must, what is to be used as fuel? No-one appears to have addressed that part of the puzzle. Perhaps American technology will come to the rescue.
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This might be the beginning of a solution.
chronophobe: I like your version of peak oil.
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Re: 51 David_Cunard
Ah, but it does. If it were not so, how do you explain the numbers of houses being built in both the UK and the USA? It's because that's what consumers want - and the customer is always right.
David,
Now we can get deep. Why do we want what we want, even if what we want is destructive?
Rene Girard explains it by the theory of triangular, or mimetic desire. A really good set of videos explaining this starting here.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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Re: 51 David_Cunard
Ah, but it does. If it were not so, how do you explain the numbers of houses being built in both the UK and the USA? It's because that's what consumers want - and the customer is always right.
David,
Now we can get deep. Why do we want what we want, even if what we want is destructive?
Rene Girard explains it by the theory of triangular, or mimetic desire. A really good set of videos explaining this starting here.
"The only reason I wanted a new house, and a shiny new Lexus, is because I saw Mr. Jones had them. I became jealous. The only reason I wanted those things is because I saw Mr. Jones had them . . . "
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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Hey Guns,
She has a way with words, doesn't she?
Cheers,
Pinko
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Sorry about the double post . . . I dunno why, something about correcting HTML errors.
Mea Culpa
Oh, and Guns, that ethanol link is interesting. I've heard them talking about making bio-diesel from algae, and ethanol from switchgrass and other feed stocks, too.
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chronophobe, in your case, she might be
talking about "peek oil."
There are about a half-dozen or so companies
in the US developing different forms of this
technology. There are probably others overseas
as well.
The only thing that could delay this would be
Cheap Oil.
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We've become a disposable society, and that's mainly because of the crap that's imported, and also that we just can't be bothered to fix or take care of our things.
As I've mentioned before, my boyfriend is from Australia. He came here mainly because he builds hot rods and restores classic cars.
One nick name he has is crafty, because when he was in his teens and twenties building motorcycles, and working on cars, parts were often hard to come by, so you had to rebuild the workings, and rig and improvise the best you could. It's amazing what he can fix out of the weirdest stuff.
The American dream these days is how much unnecessary junk we can shove into one shopping cart, that's overpackaged, and will end up in the dump in a month.
The upside to this resession for us is that people are now fixing thier cars more instead of leasing a brand new one every two years. Man the preassure of having a five year old car!
I say good luck to all of us we're going to need it. Pay to play right?!
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#20
Are you high?
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#54. chronophobe: "Now we can get deep. Why do we want what we want, even if what we want is destructive?"
There certainly can be an element of "keeping up with the Joneses", which is not a new phenomenon by any means. However, I don't see that wanting a nice house falls into that category, at least not for those starting out on the "housing ladder".
Actually, it's those last two words which illustrates at least part of the problem. Up until twenty or thirty years ago, British families tended to buy a house (when they could) and stayed in it for life. It didn't occur to them to "move up" to something larger. A century ago, my grandparents married, moved into their home (initially rented), conceived and bore their children, purchased the house and stayed in it until the day they died. How many American families do that? I have read that the median, US residency in a home is five years, homeowners "moving up" from their "starter home" (as real estate agents would say) to something bigger - the "trophy home" being the ultimate goal.
American success is measured by tangible evidence, the bigger house, the nicer car, the larger refrigerator, all fueled by heavy advertising and up until very recently, easy - very easy - credit. In Britain, my parents never bought anything "on time", not a car nor a house, since they had memories of 'the tally man'. Unlike in Britain, for Americans there was then no disgrace in making weekly or monthly payments and that has carried over to the present day. I once wanted to buy a small truck and the salesperson was only interested in how much I could afford each month despite the fact that I had said I would pay cash! Today, car commercials assume that the purchase would be financed - no manufacturer gives a discount for real money. Credit is what has made America thrive and it's a hard habit to break. The UK has followed suit.
Whether wanting tangible possessions is necessarily destructive is a debatable point. Only in recent years has it been shown that pollutants are responsible for global warming - who was to know? Buying a new house in an inexpensive area might be considered destructive of the flora and fauna, but affordable shelter outweighs that consideration for most buyers. Possessions are among the most primitive of desires, exacerbated by advertising, the fleeting fame of "celebrities" and the trappings which go with those fifteen minutes. And then there is just plain greed, as exemplified by those such as Conrad Black. Human nature takes strange forms.
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#60 David_Cunard
"Unlike in Britain, for Americans there was then no disgrace in making weekly or monthly payments and that has carried over to the present day. I once wanted to buy a small truck and the salesperson was only interested in how much I could afford each month despite the fact that I had said I would pay cash..."
This is very true. However, there are a few of those stray baby boomers (like my parents) who do feel disgrace when they use credit (mostly they use it and then pay it off all at once). I will give credit to people in generation x and y too. They aren?t all spend, spend spenders; though, a majority of them are. It is important to have a credit history but, to also know how to use it wisely. I thank God my parents were smart with their credit and taught me well as a result. I have no debt (except student loans but that's a different issue). There was an elective I took in high school that was called "business math". It was a lesson in life! Wow, what a concept! It taught us about things that are very basic everyday functions that your parents should teach you but, some don't. I think to avoid over consumerism, we need to start teaching our students about life, credit, what the hell a credit score is. Also, that possessions don't make the man or woman. Just teaching chemistry, biology and English are not going to make people successful in life. This is literally what our government and society has been telling us for years. People in my age group really have no idea, it's sad and scary. They don't find out until it's too late. Anyone can avoid this problem for the most part by just living within their means. If you don't have the cash in your account to pay for it, then you don't get it. It's really as simple as that.
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ref #60 and #61
There is nothing wrong with buying something in which you make paymentss on it.
If you can realisticly afford it.
But over the last 15 years people are buying more than they can afford, large houses, luxurycars etc.
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ladycm
The Uk has been taken in hook line sinker
Iraq Afghanistan Rendition Extradition on a
whim,Economic and Banking models.
We (UK GOVERNMENT) are a mere puppy
dog on a lead.
David_cunard?
The Mustang is a bit of FUN and 60s
nostalgia.IS THAT A SIN?
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just off topic, justin can you do a piece about how the bbc have handle the news of your new job on the today programme - it doesn't seem very joined up that the outgoing man found out from an external reported, and then reported he was leaving to do other things, when he wasn't. does this count as making up the news?
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#31:
Jeebers, thank you for your kind post. The whole situation is an experiment gone wrong, that's the only way I can think to explain it.
As stated, the parents' motivation was to deter drinking, yet the teenagers see it as the ultimate stamp of approval. The parents are now working hard to set the record straight, and our whole extended family is now chiming in with support for the nephews---very firmly, in fact.
Here's hoping for the best :-)
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#43: "I am amazed to hear that. I lived in Australia for many years and the two of the best cars one could buy were the Holden (GMH) Commodore, and the Ford Fairmont Ghia. Poetry in motion to drive, the pair of them, they looked stunning AND the automatic transmissions lasted forever. Put it this way, 200,000km on the clock and you could still find a willing buyer for them. "
I can't tell you how many times I've heard these types of experiences of Ford and GM making excellent quality products for their overseas markets.
Perhaps this may show that I need to get out more often, but I'm not familiar with either Commodore or Ghia model you described. In all truth I'm envious and happy that your experiences were good, believe me! I'm also scratching my head as to why an obviously quality product is not sold here in the US. 200,000km and still has resale value.....I don't doubt you at all, I'm just awed by it.
While I regret my own US auto buying experiences, I am genuinely happy that your money was well invested :-)
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Have you strolled through a mall lately?
They aren't a very good example of stability or meaning.
Most of the shops have either been closed and boarded up, or the few that remain, sell over-priced junk, that a few gullable sheep still buy.
But the mall still have it's uses: I bring my my 14 month son to the play park to socialize him, expose him to all the common childhood diseases, and let him run around like a crazy person, until he's tired enough to sleep. I spend more at Starbucks than the rest of the mall combined.
When he's old enough for school, I won't have much use for the mall.
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"Detroit automakers need to prove WHY their products should be kept alive beyond tradition and trademark."
their products should never have been made.
fuel efficient cars should have.
no one (with much inteligence) who supports helping them auto makers wants to extend their production of big useless gas guzzlers .
But there is the infrastructure there to build cars etc.
not in some field in Arkansas.
Green field development is a real problem if an industry as big as this were to be moved to a new location.
Sure lots O jobs building new etc. but environmentally not OK.
Not that cars are either as Ed points out .
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35 so wll put DC.
worse than that he probably drives it over battersea bridge (or was it chealsea) drag with all the other "teen racer "mentality cars freaks.
27 I know how GW has made it harder but your memory is short.
Before I left the UK (2000AD) there were plenty that hated America because it's brand was "too big too loud and too much into ignoring the plight of the Tonga Islands and others because they refused to sign Keyoto, and blocked all environmental help"
At that time there was a selfish type who would buy all things american and just Loved all the brand. But most did not care a toss but would like to see them americans try to be a little less wasteful.
Oh and can they learn to line up from the Back please.
Back in those days It would have been you that was getting abuse for being a "gas hog".
ps do you hold a july the 4 party for your "mustang"
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67 like the medical plan there.
63 yes it is a sin. sorry.
48 ladycm.
rudely I would say american culture is only cars.
" I will not accept that America has taken over other countries cultures. "
they have and it is nasty.
they sued to get access to the markets and railroaded issues through the international trade disputes using their "market" as the basis of saying do it our way or we will swamp you.
then on international terrorism America did threaten "that you are with or against us"
There will be no trade .
Now sure it could be argued that they wanted it etc, but not true.
then there is always Afghanistan.
True they do not deserve much of the blame the mindless lemmings that see all the american trappings as great deserve a large part.
But lets take Oreo trying to take over from the far better tasting Chocolate digestive biscuit (may even be healthier ;)). they are trying to say buy it it is great it is american "LOOK KIDS YOUR IMPRESSIONABLE ,LOOK ,WOW ACTION LOOK BIGGER THAN YOURS LOOK THIS IS BETTER"
live abroad get to know their culture then watch as America tries not to export it's version of reality.
sorry to disagree with you.
no offence meant to americans , but your industry does other things.
Just ask yourself why a brit who pays sOOO much for gas would buy a Mustang if there were not some influence.
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53 thanks chrono
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tiptop 65
I think those relatives were on the right path but given the rest of the town was not it created a situation where the kids would get some peer pressure to help all experience the joy of this forbidden fruit that Adults seem to like so much.
Or it could be that the parents should stop drinking in unison with their kids so the kids know they should not drink all the time.
It is a hard lesson to teach if you drink wine with every meal.
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" . . . generations who seek stability and meaning in the malls . . . " -- sounds like the definition of shopaholics, all right.
I've never seen the attraction of spending money solely for the sake of doing so. And, as with all things which are based on atrificiality, it can never last, so . . . the end of conspicuous consumerism, perhaps?
Not all Americans are addicted to shopping as a hobby, tho -- some of us are too concerned with feeding our kids and paying the mortgage/rent -- and being able to afford healthcare -- and gas to get to work -- to have the luxury of heading out to the malls whenever we feel like "seeking stability and meaning."
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Chronophobe, David and Ed,
Nice discussion over the Kunstler pieces, about which direction should be taken between city life and country sprawl, good and bad points emerging from both sides. Do not agree with his "band-aid " thoughts about showing nature in towns and cities but sensible design and planning appears to be everything. I like all Chronos thoughts and ideas for the "new" USA , if urban densification is done within reason but only in combination with the public transit questions being answered. Everything is relative to the size of the country at hand, and how much is left over to be ideally used.
Disregarding the viability of using all land available, yet using a very simplistic land mass and population figure calculation- Holland-500 persons per sq km [excellent Public Transit], The UK- 258 per sq km [reasonable PT], Southern europe 100 per sq km [poor PT], USA 35 per sq km, v poor PT. Living cheek by jowl does have its drawbacks and one bad apple can spoil it for all. This side of the water, the UK and Holland are running out of possibilities about where to build future developments and reclaiming land for building purposes is not possible if one considers the expected rises in sea levels.
Now living in the countryside I would not swap it for the bee-hive lifestyle already experienced in Amsterdam and its suburbs, and now do realise the necessity to think economically, keeping the waste of natural resources to a minimum. Fortunately the car is used to do a weekly stock up on necessities bought in the village and walking and cycling fill other movement needs, being blessed with a very agreeable climate which is also of major importance. Young or old, healthy or sick, working / retired, kids and commitments: all situations mean nobody will accept a dramatic alteration in their values of living, and just like the political picture- change can be viewed as a threat to the individual status quo.
But whether a technologists or ecologists way of thinking, are not the majority posting here closet cases from both sides. I do not believe David when he was in hospital or when visiting parents takes, or was taken the latest electrical gadget to show love and appreciation, or Ed would turn up at a neighbours house to help repair a roof with a daffodil in each hand. We each embrace the necessities of leading a life that means enjoying nature, visiting friends, using the basic technological products that enable us to survive, with the motor car as the absolute luxury and the root cause of all our problems.
Scientists with advanced technology knowhow, will eventually get us out of the mess, but the many decades it will require to reach the level of splitting water into the respective oxygen and hydrogen components, creating pure clean energy for all, requires everybody now to make compromises. Technological Optimism balanced with Ecological realism is imperative.
Oil is running out today, and despite weather extremes that must be linked to our damaged planet, tomorrow it could be the drinking water reserves in many more countries. De-salinisation being only achieved using a lot of energy I am crossing my fingers for my children and grandchildren that there is some brainy person out there, already working on this one. Although nuclear energy is a stopgap possibility, considering the damage done following the past problems that have occurred in this technology, would prefer to keep this to a minimum than run the risk of the consequences following an accident..
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Come in from the cold post 27
Mustangs so NON PC its a car 185 road tax
less tha most mondeos for pollution.
Its a bit of fun??
Pre Bush era yes but since the HATRED has
gone into another orbit.
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75
Gee, as an American myself, I must say you know just how to make one feel welcome.
Sheesh! Kids, do you have any idea just how easy it is to pick fights? You Europeans are so entrenched in your cultures that you believe that nearly all of the people in a given culture conform to a stereotype. All of you are so convinced you're right, it seems. When I watch your news programs, sports etc, all I can think of is how easily the anchor displays their bias.
I sure wish humanity would relax a mite. Remember, the USA is always shifting internally because of the vast mix of cultures involved. So, what was true a decade ago usually isn't anymore. I realize this makes it difficult to understand us. I've tried to be as open as possible, writing about what we are really like on a daily basis, at least generally.
Maybe the best analogy would be to take Europe, and fragment it into townships. Then scatter them about the land. If you don't like it in one county, you can move to another one or another state (our states are the size of your countries).
Most of what you consider "American culture" is only what typically manipulative merchants and politicians want you to see. If you want to know what we're like, fill a gymnasium with people from all about Europe, then go try to say hello. Do that for long enough, and you develop a common language, and a pretty permissive attitude toward cultures, except where they get militant and try to enforce their views on others. It helps to have a sense of humor...
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75 agreed that new heights have been reached since Bush got in. Even the softening of attitudes after 9/11 was thrown away.
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water amn aquaruious is it true you are beneath the world.?;)
I have fond memories of being beneath the world.
though lei den an the Fascists if Minerva were a bit troublesome.
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You were so prescient during the election campaign, Justinho old chum, that I find it hard to naysay you on this.
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happyjack. # 72
"Or it could be that the parents should stop drinking in unison with their kids so the kids know they should not drink all the time.
It is a hard lesson to teach if you drink wine with every meal"
"The discovery of late Stone Age beer jugs has established the fact that purposely fermented beverages existed at least as early as c. 10,000 BC. It has been suggested that beer may have preceded bread as a staple food" [wiki]
If you regard alcohol as setting a bad example to their kids, what about those who drink coffee?
Love is about the only drug that is clean, but yep-amazingly addictive.
# 78
You lost me on this one about " beneath the world" ?
If you mean southern hemisphere- no above it.
Or are you referring to magic mushrooms on toast for breakfast?.
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Justin, a bit off-topic, but perhaps worthy of mention (I don't know if you've touched on this already...)
I read with much delight how Obama, reportedly, reckons "Dave" Cameron to be a "lightweight"... leave it to the Americans to point out what should be intuitively obvious to British people. This works rings true as both an abstract estimation of his character but also of a big policy difference.
Apparently the President-elect took exception to the anti-European idealogy espoused by the Tory's. Should he be the next Prime Minsiter (a depressingly likely scenario) could that signal the end of the special relationship? Will Obama prefere to have the EU at his right hand, rather than that stubborn Island nation?
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Check this out... This has to be the most informative article I've ever read about Obama.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/2008-12-11-obamacongress_N.htm?csp=34
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We are living in a very uncertain world: topsy turvey by all accounts! America is no longer the world leader that gives the real lead judging by the last 8-year lethargy of the Bush Administration; positive change is what American citizens are yearning for! President-elect Obama has blazed a trail and is offering 'hope' on a platter. Most Americans would like to embrace his ideas and the prescriptions he has to cure the country of the eight-year malaise the Bush Administration has subjected the country to. Perhaps it is high time Bush did apologise for the mistakes he made. If he does that histotians would be kinder to him at least.
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80 aqua man ,on the booze I, i would rather that all allowed a sensible non puritanical approach .
But would suggest that in a vacuum of reason it may lead kids astray as those with access are bound to prove to be a magnet for curiosity. But the other kids living in more puritanical settings may give an ego boost to the ones with access.
Anyway they should be allowed to experiment with the less harmful pot.;)
Beneath the world would be the Netherlands or the underworld.
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Remember, the USA is always shifting internally because of the vast mix of cultures involved.
Just remember that Europe IS a mix of DIFFERENT nations.
Not one place .
EACH of those nations has regionalism akin to the states .
Americans are all Americans.
A European can be of any nation in Europe and there is a far bigger range of languages than in the US "melting pot"
(and if anyone tries the more languages on the streets of cityX comment , that has come up at this stage before, GET REAL.)
Europe not only has people speaking the member nation languages but plenty fluent in many other world languages as america has. Maybe even more.
god bless this nation
Really amazing on this blog is that no one comments or in my case rolls on floor laughing at the 50 billion dollar pyramid scheam that you had to be "invited" to join.
Bunch of ego's got buffed till the silver rubbed off.What a whoot .
one of the few times the rich got poorer.
Hardee har har
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Now I am off to fix another great american feature. American plumbing.Kitchen sinks!
When a straight run of 10 ft will do why do the greatest nations plumbers think that a 50 ft loop will be better?
Probably need a hemi to help it.
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#51 David_Cunard wrote
"What's your alternative? Mr Kunstler has his own ideas, but what are yours? It's no good telling us how wrong everything and everyone else is unless you can provide some kind of practical suggestion."
David, nearly all the criticisms are of this kind. Maybe people think the answer is in the criticism, but I think it's just a put-down and shows how insecure they are. Anyway, that's how I see it.
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# 85
Unless one is of immigrant parentage, the ability to speak a foreign language is very improbable in the USA (Latinos excepted!).
Some attention needs to be paid to the "political discourse". These are the unexpressed, but assumed, premises of the ideology.
Part of the trick of those who would dominate is to try and make everyone think that these "premises" are culturally and religiously ordained.
Guess which class they will favor?
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#62. MagicKirin: "There is nothing wrong with buying something in which you make paymentss on it.
If you can realisticly afford it."
It's that last phrase which matters! However, in the US, credit was considered to be respectable years and years before it was in the UK. In the US, American Express launched its first charge card in 1950 but the British Barclaycard did not come into being until 1966. Today, customers are seduced by heavy advertising to buy all that is new and shiny, with the assurance that no payments are due for 1, 12, or even 30 months! The temptation to get something for (seemingly) nothing is hard for many to resist, whether it be a new HDTV set or a brand new house.
#63. alexandercurzon: "The Mustang is a bit of FUN and 60s nostalgia. IS THAT A SIN?"
I'd say that an original, restored 1960s Mustang was a rather expensive bit of fun and nostalgia since the price of a 1968 model would be roughly the same as a 2008 - and yes, Mustangs are still made, and to which I assumed you were referring. Add on excise and sales tax and whatever else the British government mandates, it seems to me to be excessive for someone who objects to being "swamped by American culture". Other than a Corvette, the Mustang is one of the few icons of American automotive culture which rather contradicts your dislike of US culture in general.
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David_Cunard
Glad you arent my Old Man.
I like cars:Big Boys Toys.
WHAT I OBJECT TO is the loss of life in Iraq
Afghanistan and the Crusade attitude
IE: WE ARE RIGHT EVERYONE ELSE IS
WRONG!
That has nothing to do with a Mustang,
its a new one BTW.A reincarnation of the
McQueen "Bullitt" version as i said a bit of
FUN.
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Hopefully our friends overseas realize that that while our manufacturing might is definitely in decline, there is an unlimited access to every conceivable product at relatively affordable prices.
The only thing that is in short supply in the USA are shoe-lurching "terrorists".
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Like all threatened creatures the big three will either have to adapt or die! What amazes me is that ONLY now, finally, do their respective managements accept the need for change despite years of warnings. Sadly as ever the innocent will suffer, the shopfloor workforce, the 1st/2nd/3rd tier suppliers, the dealerships etc.
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Just listen to Justin's radio clip about the Clinton's and their vacuous legacy today, 14/12/08 and was really a bit ticked off by it! So what about Bush's legacy??? uncontrolled deregulations, massive taxcuts to the rich all leading to the present crisis - but worst of all invading Iraq which had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11... And they knew it!! And the tremendous loss of life that has resulted. OH YES, there's a legacy to be proud of!!!!!!!
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Reading this and other threads on this blog makes me think that the real problem that the world has with Americans is the ever increasing pervasiveness of our culture. And I think they have reason to worry. The adults of the world are certainly not all that affected, but their kids are. I believe parents around the globe are feeling rather desperate as they watch their kids start to reject their own cultures in favor of the American culture presented by the American entertainment industry. Indeed, while many sectors of the American economic engine are sputtering and a few are on life support, the American entertainment industry is still strong and growing stronger, and it's in danger of overwhelming and eventually destroying the world's older cultures.
I'm not sure how to stop this.Violence won't do it. The U.S. is just too strong. The cessation of American military adventurism will only make the problem worse. Iraq has provided the world with plentiful and powerful ammunition with which to fight the invasion of American culture. Without it and with the election of Obama, I'm afraid the American culture invasion will only pick up steam.
The funny thing is, most Americans don't care one way or the other. We're winning a struggle we don't even know we're fighting.
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85 happylaze
Slight problem. Each state in the USA has hugely different laws, just like Europe. The only difference is, we are all expected to speak the same (approximately) language.
Accents get so extreme here that we even had to assign a "standard" which is midwestern in origin. It gets to the point where they might as well be speaking a foreign language! In some ways, it's actually pretty difficult here.
Right in my current apt building, a bunch of Somalians moved in, and they have the most messed up language.... Oddly, while the young men are really grumpy, the women and older men seem to love it here, and are slowly relaxing. They even smile once in a while. This place is a bigger melting pot than you would think. Why the hairy heck a bunch of equatorial Africans would want to live in the middle of one of the coldest states in the USA I'll never know. These guys have to be an even bigger glutton for weather punishment that we Minnesotans are!
Did you know that once a guy from Louisiana with the heaviest Cajun accent I have EVER heard once popped up and said hello.... I was at the register, but demurred to my partner because I was clueless. Afterward, I slowly turned to him and said, "So what did he say? All I got was 'car'."
My friend replied, "All I got was 'car' and 'sale'.
"What? You had a whole conversation with the man! You bullsh--ed the whole thing? I AM impressed! You are the man!"
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#90. alexandercurzon: "WHAT I OBJECT TO is the loss of life in Iraq Afghanistan and the Crusade attitude
IE: WE ARE RIGHT EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG!
That has nothing to do with a Mustang"
You had earlier written: "Its the BUSH era thats turned us Brits off plus being swamped by USA culture."
The Bush era is virtually over, but if (as you say) being "swamped by American culture" turns you off, why on earth buy a quintessentially American vehicle, the original of which was seen in an American film starring an American actor? It seems to me that you are a closet admirer and consumer of American culture rather than being turned-off by it.
By the way, I hope your vehicle is dark "Highland" green as in the movie.
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Oh, 88
There are LOTS of immigrants here in the USA! In fact, we are getting more and more in comparison to the normal birth rate. It seems as if they view my country as a refuge of sorts. I really didn't buy the whole "America is great" thing. All I ever thought was unique about us is that we couldn't care less about a lot of the cultural aspects that the rest of the world seems to. We just want to know if you're friendly and trustworthy, that's about it. Increasingly, (except in the deep South) we don't seem to care about skin color, religion, culture etc, just whether you seem rational or not.
Most of America, and the world in general, puzzles me to no end. It just doesn't make much sense, most of it. I am worried for Europe and the rest of the world however. As the USA withdraws its military and influence, you are going to have increasing violence and piracy/chaos. Even now I see nations getting bullish and throwing their weight around more and more often.
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Like This and this:Peace and fair shares
ed
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Can I just point out to all of these people complaining about American culture swamping their cultures... I assume you refer to American products, ie. Hollywood, McDonalds and the like. In that case, nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to go see American movies at the cinema. No one is force feeding you Big Macs. No one is duct taping headphones into your ear and making you listen to Green Day. YOU are choosing to go see our movies... YOU are eating Big Macs of your own free will... YOU are buying our bands' albums. Take some personal responsibility. I guarantee you, if the demand for American goods and services didn't exist on the European continent, than they wouldn't be offered there. Even if I allow that American companies put pressure on your governments to allow them to sell their goods, no one can force you to spend Euros and pounds on our products. I say the same thing to people here in the states complaining about goods not "Made in America." If we didn't buy them, then they wouldn't be sold here. And yes, George Bush is an imbecile. And yes our country can act like schoolyard bullies. Is this original to our nation though? Absolutely not. Historically, different nations have been the dominant power/powers. Before it was us, we shared our dominance with the Soviet Union, and they also acted like bullies in their respective areas of influence. Before the cold war, it was the British Empire, on which the sun never set, that was considered the world's bully. Our power will fade and we are already seeing signs of that. But for people hoping for our complete destruction, wake up, it won't happen. We will see the reemergence of a multipolar world, with the UK, France, Germany, China, India, Japan and Brazil all sharing dominance and competing economically and politically. Hopefully we will learn from the past and allow this natural competition to remain peaceful.
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PS Don't forget, America's "culture" really is nothing more than a mish-mash of every culture and even language it comes into contact with. We are your own creation, so why is it a problem if "our" culture is so popular? In every US household, there are different home lives, each from a different culture. Some of which are even a blend of several, like a Christian and a Jew getting married, or interracial etc. My own sister, a Catholic, married a Mormon and decided to convert, but it didn't cause much of a stir with my mother at all. This is the same woman who once wanted to be a nun(when she was young)!
You can still have your own culture, people. The USA respects that. All we are doing is providing a common culture, a lingua franca, as it were. Most of us aren't even interested in "converting" anyone, it's just that our merchants are more than a little.... exuberant. In the privacy of your homes, be yourselves. That's the whole point. Outside your homes, it seems as if the attitude I see is "You must think like I do, or else!" Why is it so important that I follow the same religion as you do? Why do I have to have the same culture as you? There are common human elements in all of our cultures and lives. Why not just chill out? From what I understand, the USA doesn't have a "or else!" attached to the culture at all.
I guess I don't understand why culture is so important to the point of fighting. This is coming from a guy who ENJOYS listening to people from all walks of life, no matter how radical they might be in my view, I love to listen and learn. Everybody has something they can teach me, everyone.
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Like This and this:
"Americans, being but 5% of the world's people, control 32% of the entire world?s wealth, "
A nations wealth and living standards is directly related to its productivity. Even if we became less productive and therefore reduced our wealth, the rest of the world would not therefore become more wealthy.
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Well change is constant. Oil prices were crazy, now with a recession, they are down, no demand.
I think about all the solutions the state offers in more taxes. To make things better?
I take out my hunting gear, clean my shotgun, and rifles. Also check my fishing gear. I may have need of both to put food
on the table and in the freezer.
As I load my wood furnace with the wood I cut down on my land to heat my home. My mind wanders as to where I should clear a spot for a vegetable garden next year.
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Bovine excreta! The USA is a NET CONSUMER. The biggest consumer on the planet, and proud of it.You can't eat GNPPeace and fish
ed
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Woody Guthrie said it best.
"This land is your land, this land is my land."
The American brand is independance, and survival, no matter how difficult.
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Bovine excreta! The USA is a NET CONSUMER. The biggest consumer on the planet, and proud of it.
No sir, not bovine excreta, but accepted economic fact. That's why effors to help developing countries focus on making them more productive. Whether or not a nation is a NET CONSUMER as you so emphasize is not to the point... the U.S.A. is also highly, highly, productive. Among the most productive, and therefore, wealthiest, in the world. Have you ever taken a postsecondary macroeconomics course? If you have, then I know you've been taught and explained the relationship between productivity and a nation's living standards. If you haven't, I suggest you do and get yourself informed before you complain about the global distribution of wealth.
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A country's standard of living depends on its ability to produce goods and services. The differences in living standards around the world are staggering. In 2003, the average American had an income of about $37,500. In the same year, the average Mexican earned $8,950, and the average Nigerian earned $900. Not suprisingly, this large variation in average income is reflected in various measures of the quality of life. Citizens of high-income countries have more TV sets, more cars, better nutrition, better healthcare, and a longer life expectancy than citizens of low-income countries.
Changes in living standards over time are also large. In the United States, incomes have historically grown about 2 percent per year (after adjusting for changes in the cost of living). At this rate, average income doubles every 35 years. Over the past century, average income has risen about eightfold.
Almost all variation in living standards is attributable to a county's productivity- that is, the amount of goods and services produced from each hour of a worker's time. In nations where workers can produce a large quantity of goods and services per unity of time, most people enjoy a higher standard of living; in nations where workers are less productive, most people endure a more meager existence. Likewise, the growth rate of a nation's productivity determines the growth rate of its average income.
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62. At 10:30am on 14 Dec 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #60 and #61
"There is nothing wrong with buying something in which you make paymentss on it.
If you can realisticly afford it.
But over the last 15 years people are buying more than they can afford, large houses, luxurycars etc."
I totally agree. I didn't mean to come off as if it was wrong to make payments. I made payments on my car for 5 years, but I paid it off. Actually, I paid it off early after about 4 years (better economic times then)! I think what I was trying to get at is how everything shouldn't be so disposable. Many people have never even paid off a car... that is gratification you can't even explain. I will drive this car until it falls apart. It's a Chevy, so that could be very soon. Making payments is also important in establishing a credit history also.
63. At 10:45am on 14 Dec 2008, alexandercurzon wrote:
ladycm
"The Uk has been taken in hook line sinker
Iraq Afghanistan Rendition Extradition on a
whim,Economic and Banking models.
We (UK GOVERNMENT) are a mere puppy
dog on a lead."
I respect your opinion. Perhaps you have a point, although I think many normal people in America and abroad general got themselves caught up in material culture. There is A LOT of that here in America for sure.
#70 happylaze:
"live abroad get to know their culture then watch as America tries not to export it's version of reality.
sorry to disagree with you."
No need to be sorry about a disagreement. I understand we export our reality to other countries, the biggest example of which is the war in Iraq. We are trying to force our type of democracy on them, when they don't even want it. I think what I am trying to get at is that we are not the only culture or country that puts a lot of emphasis on how many material possessions someone has. We are not the only culture that measures success by how many sq ft your house is, or what year of Mercedes you drive etc. That exists abroad by personal choice. By the way I am hopeful that I could get a Visa attend school in the UK for at least a quarter or semester. I want to learn how other cultures operate and what their values are. Turns out, the economy isn?t that great right now so?it will be a while.
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"We are your own creation, so why is it a problem if "our" culture is so popular?"
A culture is nothing more than a set of rules to which a population adheres. It dictates everything from your table manners to whom you can associate with. It dictates the rules of courtship. It dictates the individuals place in society. It dictates what topics of conversation are appropriate. In reality, it defines a people.
Because of the plethora of cultures introduces into the U.S. by its immigrants over the years, many of which border on mutual exclusivity, Americans have learned to be exceptionally tolerant of other cultures if for no other reason than to avoid that collapse of our country into sectarian violence. This, I believe, is the ultimate source of American pragmatism. Increasingly our culture has become defined by having relatively few hard and fast rules. Americans are used to having little if any restriction on their behavior.
Naturally, that's attractive to youth all over the world, and that's leading to them flaunt the rules of their native cultures. That's a huge problem for those parents who were raised to believe the rules of their culture are inviolate.
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85. At 7:16pm on 14 Dec 2008, happylaze:
"Really amazing on this blog is that no one comments or in my case rolls on floor laughing at the 50 billion dollar pyramid scheam that you had to be "invited" to join.
Bunch of ego's got buffed till the silver rubbed off.What a whoot .
one of the few times the rich got poorer.
Hardee har har"
Yah, I saw that. I did that thing where I just smacked my forehead with my hand and went what the hell? I don't know that a Ponzi scheme is (if that's even the right name), but I know I don't care. That guy is a like a zillion years old, I don't know if that dinosaur is going to have to go to jail but I think he is just too old. Take his money and give it to poor people. God bless this greedy country. P.S. someone threw a show a George Bush? Not wait, two shoes; tough love...
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100. At 00:11am on 15 Dec 2008, Jeebers76 wrote:
"PS Don't forget, America's "culture" really is nothing more than a mish-mash of every culture and even language it comes into contact with. We are your own creation, so why is it a problem if "our" culture is so popular? In every US household, there are different home lives, each from a different culture. Some of which are even a blend of several, like a Christian and a Jew getting married, or interracial etc."
"...I love to listen and learn. Everybody has something they can teach me, everyone."
I love this comment.
Abosolutely. I am from the west coast and I have family from the south. It makes for interesting holidays, that's for sure. I think regular Americans could care less about trying to export their values and norms abroad; and that is miss understood about us. It's the large corporations, the entertainment industry etc... who have millions of dollars at their disposal who are exporting America abroad. You touched on a point that's really great about America. I don't care where you came from, what religion you are etc... just as long as you are a genuine person that cares for the well being of everyone.
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As far as WalMart, McDonald's, etc. go,
we don't want them, that's why we export
them.
And if someone in Europe wants to send
us some of those zippy little Fords and Opels
that get great gas mileage in exchange
for some Mustangs, I would be willing to
broker a deal.
Or, better yet, send us your car company
managers, and we'll gladly send you ours.
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#18
this post is spot-on. i bought my first car back in 1999 at the age of 15 (a month before turning 16), and it was a 1975 monte carlo. it was a florida car, it had been stored for many years, but it needed a lot of work. my dad and i replaced nearly everything... except the brake pads. finally, one day, my brake pad had caught up on my rotor and ground the pad down, so i was forced to buy new brake pads. the pads were the original pads from 1975! talk about an amazing product (they were also made of asbestos)! the car ran wonderfully, and i was sad when i eventually had to let it go.
how this relates? my friends purchased many newer model cavaliers and such. they constantly had issues with what was a brand new car; transmission, brakes, computer chips. one of my friends brake lines actually burst, and another had his mustang catch on fire while it idled in the driveway, warming up for a winter drive.
what's sad is that i would love to support the american car companies, the problem is that they haven't given me a reason to. why should i support a company going through tough times if my purchase is going to cause me anguish and constant headaches? it's not like a car is a normal purchase either; so why should i spent that much money to bring more problems in my life?
i bought a 1993 honda accord after my monte carlo (college car). it didn't look pretty, but the engine was hardy and the parts were quality. the only times i truly had issues with the car was when my drunken "friend" backed into my car and demolished the front-end. even then the repairs were minor (albeit unnecessarily costly [thanks pal]).
my last car was a 2003 honda civic si. simply an amazing car. while i loved my monte carlo (an understatement), my civic was an absolute dream on the road.
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#102. AmericanGrizzly: "As I load my wood furnace with the wood I cut down on my land to heat my home. My mind wanders as to where I should clear a spot for a vegetable garden next year."
This idealistic picture is spoiled by last of these earlier sentences: "I take out my hunting gear, clean my shotgun, and rifles. Also check my fishing gear. I may have need of both to put food
on the table and in the freezer."
In the freezer? That doesn't sound like back to nature to me; living "naturally" doesn't include refrigeration! That really is so American.
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AndyPost 108
"This, I believe, is the ultimate source of American pragmatism."
I totally disagree. It has nothing to do with keeping the nation together. It has everything to do with the the fact that this nation began with a bunch of random European rejects interacting with natives and trying to cobble a life together. When it's just you and one other guy for a week or more worth of travel, you learn not to give a damn about trivialities like what specific brand of religion they believe in or what language they are native of. "Can I trust the man, and is he friendly?" THAT, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, IS THE CORE OF AMERICAN MENTALITY.
"Naturally, that's attractive to youth all over the world, and that's leading to them flaunt the rules of their native cultures. That's a huge problem for those parents who were raised to believe the rules of their culture are inviolate."
Then I must say, poor poor babies! (the sound of the world's tiniest violin playing a really sad tune)
I'm sorry, but if THAT'S their big problem, these lunatics must not have much in their lives to worry about! I worry about putting food on the table, making sure my loved ones are safe and happy, trying to keep the world from getting into a giant genitalia measuring contest, that sort of thing. Next to all of that, do you really think that supposedly inviolate cultural rules are worth sweating over? Get serious. For the first time here, I actually feel contemptuous of a group of people, the ones who put such stock in their cultural rules... I apologize if that offends anyone, but it does seem REAALLY dumb!
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This post is for all of you who dislike GW Bush. The shoe rumor is in fact very true.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081215/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush
Enjoy! :-)
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"Can I trust the man, and is he friendly?" THAT, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, IS THE CORE OF AMERICAN MENTALITY.
Doesn't sound very nefarious to me.
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Does anyone here want to know what principles guides US law?
1 Don't spook the cows! If you do something and everyone around you gets really quiet, or worse yet start giving you stares/"looks", you have just crossed the line.
2 Awright, is what you're doing dirty pool (wildly unfair) or does it make a modicum of sense?
That's it. Pretty simple, eh?
113, uhm, you do know that using the refrigerator/freezer is an inherently practical act when trying to preserve food, don't you? Would you rather that meat go to waste? If being wise is "so American", then I'm proud of it!
To all non-USA citizens:
All I've been saying here is that practicality makes far more sense than getting into a rabid theological argument about where the center of a given religion should be headquartered (like Rome and Istanbul), for example. Doesn't survival and happiness mean more than some silly rule that doesn't make sense given the environment and times? Don't we all have bigger fish to fry, as the saying goes?!
I am seriously worried about wars breaking out once the USA withdraws its' global forces, because that's what Obama will do in his first year of presidency, just watch. Trade will be disrupted, people will die, things will get blown up, all because somebody wants to be top dog... I hate that kind of macho nonsense.
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#113, David_C, that explains why you
Brits can tolerate warm beer.
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111, guns.
The reason Detroit is going under, in addition to being arrogant idiots, is that we don't trust them and we have long memories. If they did it to us before, they will do it to us again.
The last time we drove an American car was in the late 1960's. It died on us suddenly, the day before we were leaving for overseas work. (The car was rotten, but the timing was great.) Since then we have had British, German and Japanese cars. They have never died on us.
Apropos of nothing: The good thing about Social Security is that they can't fire anybody. (But will it need a bailout?)
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#119, Ms. Marbles, that leaves the youth
market, and it looks to me like they are
all buying imports.
Detroit made the classic mistake of all large
corporations: listening to their salesmen,
instead of listening to customers who had
already left their showrooms.
All of this makes one wonder what kind
of poppycock is being passed around in
the Ford, GM, and Chrysler boardrooms.
Of course, now the politicians are going
to run our car companies, so we should
see an immediate improvement in their
marketing acumen!
In case you missed it, here again is the
Pelosi Special.
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#118. gunsandreligion: " David_C, that explains why you Brits can tolerate warm beer."
I don't think you'll find much "warm" beer around these days, everything from Guinness to lager is refrigerated - and in the case of Guinness, going way back to the early 60s. It's supposed to be served at "cellar temperature" and the company provided chillers to pubs which did not have cellars. Subsequently these were used for the (then) new Harp Lager which popularised the lighter brews - and which now dominate UK beer drinking. Even the King of Beers (Bud) is generally available. The UK has caught up with regard to drinking temperatures, but sadly has not embraced the general use of ice in mixed drinks. A gin and tonic with just two cubes of ice just doesn't make it!
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120, guns.
You are so JADED! You. don't realize that America is the best, the biggest, and the smartest. So they are short-sighted and arrogant - but look at the wonders we get in return.
Now here is something that will interest you, and keep in mind that it is a true story. It is about a scam.
An American bigwig wanted to make a deal with a foreign country. He was making an offer to one of the country's ministries. But since he hadn't done business in that country before he felt he needed a "facilliator."
So he looked around and found just the right person. He had many meetings with the foreign fix-it man who told him he had lots of contacts and that, working behind the scenes, he would get the deal approved. The American asked him how he could be so sure. The foreigner said he guaranteed it, and was so was positive that he would take no money up front. But, he told the bigwig, that when the contract was signed, sealed and delivered, he wanted five per cent.
OK, Guns, what is the scam?
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#121, David_C, I've heard this thing about
ice mentioned before... As far as Bud is
concerned, I cannot imagine why one would
want to imbibe such a substance.
Thank God we've recovered from prohibition,
and have proper beers these days! Although,
if one of your countrymen could arrange to
export bitters to the US, I would gladly
act as an early customer.
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#122, perhaps the scam is that the deal
would have gone through anyway, and
the facilitator was taking 5% for nothing!
After, Mr. Fix-it had no money in the deal,
so he wasn't risking anything.
How did I do?
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#123. gunsandreligion: "As far as Bud is
concerned, I cannot imagine why one would
want to imbibe such a substance."
I think that in the UK there is a certain cachet or snob value in ordering a Bud rather than, say, Heineken. After all, it is another quintessential American brand and, despite the protestations to the contrary, Brits generally embrace everything American; they've even adopted Eggs Benedict!
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#125, David_C, this is another example of
how America unfairly benefits from globalization.
Here, we get to sell watered-down beer to
poor working folk (and perhaps a few foolish
yuppies.) In exchange, we get to drive BMW's
and Porsches.
Now, if we could just unload a few million
unloved SUVs, we could be back on our
feet in no time.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The beauty of business in America is that most business is small business; from the local markets to the tacky nail salons, there is always some business ready to take over the market when big business fails. In fact, it is my believe that bailing out big failing businesses stiffles innovation and is too related to lobbying power in Congress. And in the interim period after such businesses fail, people might actually be pleased to see their local companies fill the void or come back into existence.
I will say this though, the economic crisis has affected states and regions differently which means that recovery efforts should not all be identical. Ironicly, I know that in Louisiana we've been hurt more by the sudden drop in Oil prices than the stock market.
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124, guns.
I was bad and they punished me. I said you were too smart to be an American businessman. Then I said other stuff too (explaining what I meant). All very confusing. Maybe I will stop blogging.
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124, guns.
I think the BBC takes a particular stance about - who knows what. The problem is that we don't know what.
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#130, Ms. Marbles, between the Kremlin
and the BBC, I do not know which is more
inscrutable.
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131, guns.
Now, now, we know it i the Heathen Chinee that is inscrutable.
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re plastic paper. As with most technological developments they are worked up internationally. The basic patents are held by Cambridge University England and HP has been working with the University of Arizona for some years. HP is a great brand with a very good American 'myth' about how it started (like Apple), so there is hope it can commercialise this display. Ford has long developed products international appointing local development centers for it's major platforms. For a while Jaguar England (now owned by Tata India) was the centre for the medium car (Mondeo in UK) but the brand was American again with a myth of Henry Ford attached.
I should say also that Henry Ford visited England before he set up the line for the Model T, and the local myth in Manchester say he got the idea of the production line from Crossley Engines a local firm, who had pinched it in turn from two Brits who had applied it to making bicycles cheap and launched world wide craze,
Technology is international. Brands try to be.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
happylaze: Good luck with the sink. We just recently had to replace ours in the kitchen---what a "twisted" nightmare!
112. hontogaijin :
Oh, the memories your unfortunate experience brought back, recalling your friend's Ford Mustand that caught on fire while idling.
I was 18 and owned a Ford Escort. Cold winter day it was warming in the drive at 5am (I was headed to work). I had to go in the house, wake my father, and ask him if he would come take a look at my car as the dashboard was on fire.
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I don't understand what the American brands are thinking anymore. We want cars with better gas mileage and maintain power, so the Japanese gave that to us. American car companies have just started offering that option....too late in my mind. American companies have gotten lazy, selfish, and greedy. I couldn't be happier to see the Big 3 go under. They earned it.
We have had opportunities to improve and make changes, but it seems that increasing salaries have gotten in the way.
When the American companies wake up and take responsibility for their actions (or no actions) and realize that we are not the super-power that we once were, maybe we can pull out of this economic crisis. It is time to adapt to the new world around us and actually listen to consumers who want to spend money on products that are made well and to the specifications that we are looking for.
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honto, tiptop, I had a Mustang that caught fire, too.
I was warming it up on a cold winter's day, when
I saw a glow coming out from under the hood.
When I popped the hood, I saw that some oil
had caught fire around a little wire that was
connected to the ignition, and was able to put
it out by putting snow on it.
About the same year I recall that one owner
had so many problems with his Ford Pinto that
he and his friends dug a huge pit in front of
his dealership and held a burial ceremony.
When the dealer was asked about quality, he
replied, "What do you expect for $3000?"
This was in the early seventies, so that was
a considerable amount of money.
Another dealer proclaimed, "They're like shopping
carts, some are good and some are bad."
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Ref 136
"American companies have gotten lazy, selfish, and greedy. I couldn't be happier to see the Big 3 go under. They earned it."
Consider this, until not too long ago the USA was the largest creditor nation in the world and our products and businesses dominated global trade, today we are the largest debtor nation in the world, the few products we still make are often regarded as substandard, and our economy and industrial might are in rapid decline. Have we earned the right to be relegated to Third World status, or should we try to overcome our difficulties and re-emerge as the dominant power we were just a few years ago?
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Oink! Oink!Complain about this comment
ref #115
Why doesnt that reporter throw a shoe at Sadr? He is responsible for far more death and violence.
This man is no reporter but a coward who hides behind the name.
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strengthandpower (#136), I can't see taking the greatest pleasure in the failure of the big three, as you state. I would be happiest if they adapted and became competitive with Honda and Toyota. I don't know if it's possible, though. They have had 30 years or so since their nadir in the 1970's. How much time should they need?
The Saturn was supposed to lead the way to creating a domestic brand which could compete with imports, but GM backed off on their strategy. Today, the new Saturn Aura shares a platform with Chevrolet and Pontiac, so Saturn is just another GM division.
I would like to see GM and Ford, at least, recover and survive. I don't care about Chrysler. A company that squandered its efforts on things like the Viper and Prowler deserves to die. Parts of it are still worth something, however. The Dodge Charger has been well received as a highway patrol car, taking business away from Ford (Chevrolet lost it years ago). That should survive. Can you imagine the state police chasing the bad guys in something like a Toyota Avalon?
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90 alex
"I like cars:Big Boys Toys"
Big Boys do not need an extension.
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90 "it has nothing to do with the mustang"
really?
so they did not go to war because mustangs.
Or cars built with the same mentality.
Monster truck fever has not helped fuel the desire for Jacked up trucks either.
Sad to think you seem to believe there is no connection between gas guzzlers and oil wars.
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Ed (#139), dollar-denominated comparisons of standards of living are misleading, because they reflect exchange rates as well as the value of goods and services. Someone who made only $900 but lived in the US would be sleeping under a freeway, as some people do in California these days. Is the average Nigerian homeless?
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"87. At 7:53pm on 14 Dec 2008, lochraven wrote:
#51 David_Cunard wrote
"What's your alternative? Mr Kunstler has his own ideas, but what are yours? It's no good telling us how wrong everything and everyone else is unless you can provide some kind of practical suggestion."
David, nearly all the criticisms are of this kind. Maybe people think the answer is in the criticism, but I think it's just a put-down and shows how insecure they are. Anyway, that's how I see it.
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Yea I'll complain It seems to be the letter of a very insecure person.
The alternatives have been discussed by many . And DC has heard a few of them.
His argument ignores much of reality.
yes use all the oil . Global warming will not go down that way.
I always feel here in the states that if I am to live in a city why not put it all in a smaller area.
but that is because I liked that aspect of cities.
Seems most american cities could fit in half the area.
either way suburbia failed and there is no town planner worth their salt that would carry on this way.
Do you really want answers that would inform you or an excuse to say"that won't work."
Despite not being tried.
Americans live in ribbon developments then wonder why they have to drive everywhere.
Even though the ribbon is easily serviced by public transport.
City dwellers from the east probably take it for granted that you actually have neighbours. And some times you can hear them.
That is the failing of the west which I normally defend, this I have to have isolation to invite people to.
either way for you to say
"Maybe people think the answer is in the criticism, but I think it's just a put-down and shows how insecure they are. "
Is just an " insecure put down".
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Ref 140
"Why doesnt that reporter throw a shoe at Sadr? He is responsible for far more death and violence."
In the Persian Gulf region throwing a shoe or stepping on a statue or image is an expression of contempt for the target. Judging by the enthusiastic reaction to this incident from large segments of the population throughout that part of the world, it is apparent that they view us as occupiers and enablers of the calamities that afflict them and hold our leaders responsible for them.
I suspect they see Moqtada Al-Sadr as a leader of the resistance that is trying to restore the sovereignty of Iraq by expelling the invaders that came from distant lands. Remember that those we regard as evil are considered heroes by others.
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145, That's just it, all of these cities, like those around the world, WERE NOT PLANNED! They all grew naturally as time went on. Cities that began with a grid of streets are a rarity. For example, Minneapolis has a organized grid of streets, while St Paul (the Twin Cities in Minnesota USA) has lots of winding streets that go in odd directions.
USA cities, like most in Europe and around the planet, grew on their own without thought or planning beyond the immediate. Planning a city from scratch is a new thing for humanity, especially doing so on a regular basis. Thus, we get suburban sprawl.
Personally I hate it, as I think more thought should be used on a regular basis by most of humanity. City planning is one example, the slaughter of various endangered animals for peculiar Chinese superstitions is another. This sort of behavior is all around the world, it isn't unique to the USA. Most of us don't think enough before we leap, and aren't used to the idea that it's necessary.
I can only pray mankind figures out the error of its ways. I wonder, how long before the UK begins farming their garbage dumps for methane to produce energy? There are spots already in the US that have begun doing so, but this is a new technology that most of humanity seems not to have heard of.
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Personally I blame the gradual decline in American industry on a business school mentality. When I was growing up in Detroit, the auto industry was dominated by automotive engineers. Even the managers were automotive engineers who rose in the ranks. These were "car guys," people who loved cars. All kinds of cars. Their passion in life was to build cars that other people would get passionate about. A little weird, perhaps, but that's what leads to innovative products.
Today, management in all kinds of companies is dominated by people with business degrees. They are less interested in making THINGS than they are in making MONEY. What they (and most other people, for that matter) don't understand is that prosperity is a byproduct, not a goal. You work hard and innovate to reach a goal and if you succeed, along the way you might make a pile of money. If you don't make a pile of money, you at least have the satisfaction of reaching your goal. If you start out intending to make a pile of money, you're going to make short-term decisions that lead to lackluster long-term results. Like backsliding on quality in your products so you can have a higher profit per unit. You're playing poker rather than making cars, and you can end up with neither the pile of money nor the satisfaction of doing something well. Which is exactly where we are today.
American businesses would be much better off if they wouldn't hire so many people with MBAs and focused instead on their core missions.
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Gary (144), I was quoting the 'dollar averages' from #106, ll1162.
I thoroughly agree that it's stupid to use dollars as some sort of 'universal' measure of 'value'. In fact, that is a central point in my argument. After all, You can't Eat GNP.
Peace and Community
ed
Whather measured in Dollars or Tonnes, the "Western" economies, representing some 20% of humanity, consume some 80% of the annual harvest of resources. How long can this situation continue?
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ref #146
I was being sardonic.
But that coward would not have dared to do it before the U.S liberated Iraq.
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#145. happylaze "Americans live in ribbon developments then wonder why they have to drive everywhere."
Ribbon development was a feature of British, pre-war, "planning" and as such does not exist in America. New houses that are built, notably following WWII, are in planned areas, often known as "tract homes" because they are built on tracts of land. Today, vast "master plans" are created and it is a given that the residents will drive from A to B. The nearest equivalent I can think of would be British council estates, in which the "architecture" was uniform and exceedingly unattractive.
"if I am to live in a city why not put it all in a smaller area."
How would you propose to shrink the area? Here on the West Coast, the average lot (plot) for a suburban house is around 6,000 square feet, possibly a little more. That gives enough space for the structure and, by most standards, a very small garden or "yard". Unless everyone is to live in rabbit-warren high density housing - condominiums, co-ops and apartments - I cannot see how one can shrink the area. "The American Dream" isn't multi-family living, but a single family residence.
A shrinkage of some kind has occurred in the last twenty plus years in that multi-storey homes have largely replaced the single storey "ranch" type, or bungalow, but I have little doubt that this was for the convenience of developers who could squeeze more houses into a given area.
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146 dominck
well said.
jeebers do not take what I say about the states as more than constructive criticism , I do believe that con-trey to an opinion expressed here that you fist have to recognise a problem exists to be able to work on it.
" I wonder, how long before the UK begins farming their garbage dumps for methane to produce energy? "
they have been for a while . for good reason. (though I hope they do not think this could be a sustainable way of producing energy.
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148 tim ohio.
great to hear some say the degree is over rated.
As I put it here .
the only test needed to get a job is a "pee test" doesn't matter that you know your job.
Or that the clean peer does not.
of course management rarely get pee tested.
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On the matter of the size of cities, London became the first city of a million people sometime around 1800.
The factor limiting a city's size has always been the ability to supply its population with food, water, and other requisites. Until the advent of accellerated transport, the natural limit was below one million, being the maximum supportable by an agricultural resource using largely horse-transport. Obviously, river and seaports could support more.
The once-in-a-planetary-history "boon" of fossil-fuel-accelerated transport has enabled the creation of megalopolis conurbations utterly dependent upon foodstuffs from all over the world. Never mind the imported asparagus or the caviar, just wonder how these places are going to be fed after the oil runs out.
Peace and allotments
ed
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151 DC
housing density has been explored by architects all over.
and the suburban west coast model does not feature heavily in the plans other nations make except as an example of how not to do it.
I have some experience at not finishing architecture school ( strangely enough in that very same collage that jacksforge was at).
The ranch style house you mention is EXACTLY the problem.
Sprawling waste (thanks frank lloyd wrong).
Ps ribbon development is a product often of terrain and has existed for a long time.look at the welsh valleys.
I would say that the North west with valleys everywhere is full to the brim with ribbon development
also that highways helped create the conditions through artificial means that had previously been forced on communities by steep valley sides.
Given the lack of restriction by nature it is true that the ribbon got cut up a little , or rather they built some developments off the main artery , in clusters.
And as all things seem to have to expand eventually they mesh together once they overlap into a sprawl.
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PS ranch style was for the convenience of the elderly as well as the developers.
We call them bungalows , remember.
Though I find it funny to see some of the so called "bungalows" here in the states.
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re. 151. David_Cunard:
"Unless everyone is to live in rabbit-warren high density housing - condominiums, co-ops and apartments..."
I lived for a short time in a very affluent part of Rome (better than I could afford, really) that was filled with high-density housing, and I certainly wouldn't have described it as a rabbit warren. There was the typical Mediterranean mix of shops on the ground floor and apartments and condominiuims on the floors above. There was an active street life and it felt more like a neighborhood than many parts of many American cities. There are certainly very affluent parts of New York City that are high density and not rabbit warren-ish at all. And multi-story houses have been the norm in the Midwest for a long time because they're more efficient to heat. You've been living in California too long.
Oddly enough, the older tract neighborhood of single-family homes where I live now has a higher density than most contemporary suburban developments. It was laid out in the 1920s when cars were not so ubiquitous and is convenient to bus lines (if only now the buses ran reliably at convenient times). The average lot size is around 6000 square feet, but because of two-story construction there is room for much more than a small yard. I have a separate garage, a small orchard, a vegetable garden, and a brick patio on my lot. At least in the Midwest, in the 1920s and 30s there was a reaction against the huge Victorian houses in favor of more compact single family homes, which I think are more comfortable than most houses designed today. It's all in how you use the space.
If Americans made public transportation a more important part of their overall transportation system and stopped relying on cars so much, we would design for a more energy efficient lifestyle that would, in the end, be more comfortable and enjoyable. But that wouldn't be good for the auto industry, would it?
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156, happylaze.
The ranch-style house, at least in the northeast, gained great popularity after WWII, when there was a craze for everything Californian. It abviously was not suited to a cold climate.
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Something is wrong with the system. I logged out last night when my comments were not entered. Just now I placed two comments and I see that only one is listed.
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Greed, the most durable American Brand
What? Me worry?Peace without Greed
ed
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#155/6. happylaze: "The ranch style house you mention is EXACTLY the problem. . . ranch style was for the convenience of the elderly as well as the developers."
That's nonsense. Following WWII vast areas of houses were built to be occupied by returning American military, almost all taking advantage of the GI Bill which ensured that members of the armed forces could buy a property with no money down, and that the mortgage would be guaranteed by the US Government. None of these purchasers were "the elderly". The single storey house was the design of choice, as can be seen by touring any of the older developments - for example, the San Fernando Valley in Los Angeles County. In areas such as Pasadena and West Adams (downtown Los Angeles) there are older developments today know as "bungalow heaven" so the style, going back to the turn of the century, was well entrenched. Even in Hollywood (the place, not the illusion) there are thousands of single storey, Spanish-style residences built in the 1920s.
It would have been more convenient - and profitable - for developers to build two storey houses as they would have been able to increase the number of units on a given area of land, but they didn't, because at the time, the ranch house was typical of Western design and was what the public wanted. In more recent years buyers have become adapted to two, even three storey homes, but the land area utilised has not altered. The only alternative to spreading out is to build up, and despite the advertisements for luxury high-rise condominiums, the average purchaser still wants their own plot of ground and house upon it. I don't see how you can change human nature - perhaps the desire is genetic, we all want our own cave to call our own.
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Sounds like it's time for brand Soylent Green....
Det: I know, Sol, you've told me a hundred times before. People were better, the world was better...
Sol: Ah, people were always lousy... But there was a world, once
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#57. timohio: "I lived for a short time in a very affluent part of Rome . . . that was filled with high-density housing, and I certainly wouldn't have described it as a rabbit warren. . . There are certainly very affluent parts of New York City that are high density and not rabbit warren-ish at all."
To my way of thinking, regardless of the smart designer touches and affluent residents, any building that has multiple dwellings on each floor is rabbit-warren-ish. Grand condominiums with their concierge and doormen are no different in essence than those awful high-rise council-built towers in Britain. It may be an efficient method of sheltering large numbers of people, but basically it is a lot of families under one roof. If apartment living is so wonderful, why does anyone want a space of their own? Because, as Cole Porter wrote, "don't fence me in." And in a nation such as the United States, where there is land aplenty, the demand for single family residences will continue.
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The only crisis in America is CLASS WARFARE. So far Bush and his upper-class cronies have won. There is analogy between what the Bush Administration is doing to the American Middle Class to what Czar Nicolas did to the Russian Peasants. They took it for year, but in the end they took matters into their own hands.
So far Bush has been lucky because he has about 30 days left in office. He was not so lucky in Iraq where the Arabs have a unique insult for people like him. But in America, we are taught that there is no such thing as class. This ignorance is how the middle class has been reduced to the lower class standing in the free food lines and sleeping with their families in shelters.
Wall Street and the Bankers have no problem getting tax payer money. It is the home owners that were swinddled by these organinazations that are homeless and hungry.
Our democracy came from the Greeks we are told. Maybe we should take a lesson from the Greeks and apply it to the Bush Administration before they leave office by the back door.
Maybe it is only in Vermont that Americans believe in BE FREE OR DIE. But I guess I'm paranoid as usual.
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157 lol tim so well written.
I have family in Ohio and laugh when people here talk of the progressive west , becuse the most open minded folk I have met are still those from Ohio.( I guess I am lucky when I visit there)
To all that think us Brits would not be twice as critical if this blog was about the UK "brand" that was the theme of "tony's Cool Britannia , and the leap on board the dome was an environmentally absurd waste".
Or the Lucas engineering was designed to make all the other crap electricians feel good about themselves" and so on so on.
Let alone some relevant modern problems, your wrong.
But this site is devoted to the US, and I as someone who spends no time in the UK would feel less able to comment except in relation to those things that I can remember or know of through associations.
I live here now and do not wish it to get anymore down the wrong path than it is. If you are going to make a turn around you can't keep going in the same direction, and sometimes if you look back you can see where you went wrong. That is the problem from my point of view when people say going back is not good.
There are a lot of dead explorers because of that attitude.
On to taller houses . the walls are built up against each other as well in them big cities so unlucky if you are the end house or top flat . probably adds up to a lot in the end,in terms of energy saved. plus you can always pop next door for some sugar.
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At 4:54pm on 15 Dec 2008, Gary_A_Hill wrote:
Ed (#139), dollar-denominated comparisons of standards of living are misleading, because they reflect exchange rates as well as the value of goods and services. Someone who made only $900 but lived in the US would be sleeping under a freeway, as some people do in California these days. Is the average Nigerian homeless?
The theory of purchasing-power parity states that a unit of any given currency should be able to buy the same quantity of goods in all countries. Many economists believe that PPP explains the forces that determine exchange rates in the long run...
PPP is based on the law of one price. This law states that a good must sell for the same price in every location. Otherwise, there would be opportunities for profit left unexploited, called arbitrage. For example, say a person could buy a pound of oranges in Florida for $3 a pound and then sell it in New Hampshire for $4 a pound, making a profit of $1 a pound from the difference in prices. If this occurred, as people took advantage of arbitrage they would increase the demand for oranges in Florida and increase the supply in New Hampshire. The price of oranges would rise in Florida(due to greater demand) and fall in New Hampshire(due to greater supply). This process would continue until over the long-term, the prices were the same in the two markets. Now apply this principle to international markets. If a dollar could buy more oranges in the U.S. than in the U.K., international traders could profit by buying oranges in the U.S. and selling them in the U.K. This export of oranges from the U.S. to the U.K. would drive up the U.S. price of oranges and drive down the U.K. price. On the other hand, if a dollar could buy more oranges in the U.K. than in the US, traders could buy oranges in the UK and sell it in the US. This import of oranges into the US would drive down the US price of oranges and increase the UK price. In conclusion, the theory of PPP explains the movement of exchange rates in the long run as adjusting to the relative price levels in those two countries. So yes, in the long run, any given currency can adequately explain the levels of material wealth in that country.
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Ed.
These cute little slogans:
Oink! Oink!
You can't Eat GNP.
represent your total inability to counter my reasoned argument with reasoned arguments of your own. As we say in the states, I rest my case.
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#160. Ed Iglehart: "Greed, the most durable American Brand."
Ed, greed manifests itself in every country and civilisation - it is not solely an American phenomenon.
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almost all taking advantage of the GI Bill which ensured that members of the armed forces could buy a property with no money down, and that the mortgage would be guaranteed by the US Government.
well if they were back in the UK what would they have done?
I suspect they would have moved into some dark dingy pokey cold horrible house and suffered like all those slum living europeans.
No I know you are not MA and are not really saying that the brits living in high density housing are all slum livers but that is part of the point.
There post war was building house after the blitz etc .
Then later there was the building of the "tower block" ) i put "" in because they should have been called tower prisons.
these ended up having lower densities than the low rise structures.
One hell of a lot of research has been done on all this.
the way for america to excuse suburbia is to make it work.
Grow food there not lawns.
get a smithy in to fix your tools.;)
Don't have a garage full of "big boy toys".
have a workshop a business a storage place for all the crops.
Eugene is on the same side as you. bit colder and a bit more water and thanks to being a hippy central crossed with loggers we do have plenty growing their food as best they can. Food not lawns etc . A good effort and heading the right way.
As to old people buying homes look at it this way.
for years in the UK bungalows were for retirees.
You can sell a retiree a bungalow and you can sell a young person a bungalow.
It is a lot harder to sell a house with stairs to someone retired than a young person.
(not saying all retired people , but you may get the point (or else be offended ,not the point)).
Either way people all over europe in places with similar climates all live in denser housing and you know what?
Americans love to visit them "QUAINT" little towns.
And there is no suburbia that is "quaint".
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David_Cunard (#163), perhaps "demand for single family residences will continue," but economics has a way of influencing demand. As housing costs kept rising in California, people moved farther out to find affordable housing. Then when the housing market cooled and gasoline prices skyrocketed, condo development in San Francisco and Oakland boomed. Condos seemed to fill up as fast as they could be built, then the housing market crashed. Now, there are empty condos everywhere. The gasoline price has been cut in half, so I'm not sure where the optimal commuting distance lies today. I think that so many people have whipsawed by market volatility that they are just lieing low for awhile.
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"...The whole point of America is that stuff is popularised here.."
Got that right. Take Starbucks as an example.....just "Italian coffee"...the Italians make their coffee sooooooo much better, but do they market it world wide....er, nope. They prefer to enjoy the coffee and let other quibble about how much money they can make "marketing it"...
Having just returned from another biz trip to Iran..there is no "brand America" there whatsoever...quite the opposite! They prefer European and Japanese goods...becasue they work and last!...essential in broken down Iran
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163
" but basically it is a lot of families under one roof."
excuse me DC what's wrong with that?
are those tribal people any less for doing so? I don't think you would say that.
Maybe this goes to the question "are west coasters really unsociable" .
Given you argument I would have to say yes.
nah ,I know you all get together for barbecues .
But you have to drive everywhere.
So how can you get past 100 dwellings to get food or work?
make the dwellings take up less space.
Two stories will do three better.
(now there is an excuse for your geographical area I think, but I'm not going to provide it because it can be solved once the will is there.)
I would add I do not think the west is as bad as I seem to be suggesting. there are areas that help throw the balance the other way like SF where most seem quite happy to live cheek to jowl as long as there are no canary mastiffs in the block.
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If they can figure out how to get power out there and jobs and roads etc. unless they want to live as Ed would suggest.
maybe some solar and wind wait where are they going to get water?
sad excuses. I'm not saying your living bad but I would say you are not looking far enough ahead, or hard enough at what is here.
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re. 163. David_Cunard:
"To my way of thinking, regardless of the smart designer touches and affluent residents, any building that has multiple dwellings on each floor is rabbit-warren-ish."
The buildings I'm thinking of were very solidly built; there was virtually no sound carrying from other units. And there was a lot more to them than smart designer touches. In Rome most of them had balconies and the ground floor units had patios. It was pretty nice. I lived in an apartment building in the US that was built in about 1930, and our apartment was as roomy as some houses. Thick concrete walls and foors, cathedral ceilings, leaded glass windows, etc. There was a murder in one of the apartments and the people in the next unit never heard a thing (sort of a left-handed compliment to the builder).
I would agree that most modern apartment and condominium buildings are pretty rabbit warren-ish, but that's because they're badly designed and cheaply built.
In the Midwest, the "starter" homes you mention were 1-1/2 story bare-bones houses with small lots. They were built so fast that the wood wasn't properly dried and tended to ooze resin. I grew up in one of them in a post-war subdivision, and I hated the house and the neighborhood. Detroit had miles and miles of subdivisions like that. That's why I like the older houses now. They are often better built and more human-scaled.
I think that people want houses instead of apartments because owning a house means you're solidly middle class. Bush traded on that perception with his talk about an ownership society. There is also a tax advantage to owning a house and paying on a mortgage. But with the drop in housing prices and the problems with mortgages, we may see more people deciding that apartments and 401k accounts make more sense.
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166 167
166
they do not grow many oranges in the UK.
it is a garbled mass of rubbish MA
you started off well but why do you resort to this smoke screen. What is it you are arguing?
Given that pile of trash a cd in the UK would not have cost the same numerical figure as the US, given the exchange rate.and the fruit content of said bookwork would be 2 % after adjusted bovine excrement is taken into account.
what is this productivity rubbish that would suggest that a tribal elder with 6 kids and a grass hut with resources unmaimed who knows his world better than you know yourself is somehow lacking.
That some how this Madoff is better off.
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#167, try clicking on Ed's slogans. They usually link to something Ed believes supports his case. Whether they do so is another matter :)
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re. 147. Jeebers76:
"Planning a city from scratch is a new thing for humanity, especially doing so on a regular basis."
Town planning in the western world was begun by Hippodamus of Miletus in the 5th century BC. Planned Greek cities had a rectilinear street pattern and rectangular city blocks. I think the ancient Chinese had city planning as well.
Many Western European cities began as Roman planned cities with street grids, open public spaces, etc. As time went on and population grew you get the unplanned streets that characterize the medieval period.
In the US, most cities have urban plans, but on the outskirts it's a different story. Developers buy up huge tracts of land and put in subdivisions without any thought about the quality of life for the people who will live there. If there is a regional plan you have some hope, but local politicians are often cowed by wealthy developers who claim that they are "anti development." And the central cities have little voice in what happens outside their limits. It would be much better to design suburbs as small towns, with town centers and public transportation connections, but those don't make as much money for developers.
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They are links to responses to your shallow reasoning, to wit:I say shallow, because you are assuming, among other things zero transport costs and zero warehousing costs, zero spoilage, etc., etc. Simplistic economics (sub 101), suitable for simplistic "true believers"Believe me, $900 will go a lot further in Nigeria than in California. Your PPP is a theorist's pipe dream.
Peace and Fair shares
ed
(Ironically, profits from oranges and other citrus enterprise (including concentrate) part-paid for my College education)
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David,
But nobody does it better! (or bigger) We in Britain have just finished watching a dramatisation of Dickens' "Little Dorrit", which features the final failure of a Ponzi-type scheme.....There's even a slight echo in the names of the perpetrators - Merdle and Makoff...both schemes open only by invitation to those who wouldn't dream of questioning unrealistic returns.You can't con an honest man.
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Happylaze,
Say hello to the Skypilot and the ghost of Ken Kesey for me, will you.Peace and Electric Kool-Ade
ed
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Another Great American Brand?
And, From 2001
Get Firefox and rest easy
Peace and Free Software
ed
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kecsmar good to see you back.
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#169. happylaze: "if they (armed forces) were back in the UK what would they have done? . . . There post war was building house after the blitz etc ."
There was a completely different philosophy between the governments of the UK and the USA. The Labour Government, which took office before the war against Japan was over, built houses which had subsidised rents and which continued the old landlord-tenant relationship, even though the landlords were local authorities (councils) which acted for the central government. In the USA, the government promoted just the opposite, home ownership for all the "returning heroes". The Welfare State which Labour initiated turned out to be less than successful, but instilled in the British the "benefits" culture which exists even to this day. Of the major creations, only the NHS can be said to be moderately successful.
The majority of house built post-war were council estates, materials for private building being very scarce. There were the pre-fabs all hastily erected in contrast the "real" houses built in America. It was only during the Thatcher years that council tenants were permitted to purchase their homes ("a cascade of wealth") and which essentially started the housing boom in the UK. Home ownership was not the norm in post-war Britain, but it was considered so in the USA.
"Grow food there not lawns" So easy to say, but it's desert out here and the summer temperatures rise to the low 100s F. Years ago I tried growing lettuce but the plants went to seed before they could be harvested. Tomatoes can be grown, but the area really doesn't lend itself to horticulture.
#174. timohio: "I think that people want houses instead of apartments because owning a house means you're solidly middle class."
I wouldn't agree with that; "class" has nothing to do with it, just the desire to have one's own little bit of heaven on earth.
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180
lol Ed
My shop is on the land of one of the pranksters. Now there is a true American free thinker. If you ever burn the world up enough to get out here we should Party.
did you get a visit from the pranksters when they went to the UK?
And is Skypilot a friend?
I knew a cool Ade but he lived in Brighton.
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I say shallow, because you are assuming, among other things zero transport costs and zero warehousing costs, zero spoilage, etc., etc. Simplistic economics (sub 101), suitable for simplistic "true believers"
Believe me, $900 will go a lot further in Nigeria than in California. Your PPP is a theorist's pipe dream.
Even with transport costs and warehouse costs accounted for, arbitrage is a profitable venture, as evidenced by the observation that people make millions doing it every year. Purchasing-power parity is not a theorist's pipedream, it is currently accepted by virtually all mainstream economic thought. Yes, $900 will go alot further in Nigeria than in California, as PPP only holds in the long-run, as an explanation for the movement of exchange rates. None of your criticisms do anything to address the theory accepted with very little modification since Adam Smith that a country's wealth depends on its productivity.
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"The link between productivity growth and living standards
Labor productivity is a measure of the amount of goods and services that the average worker produces in an hour of work. The level of productivity is the single most important determinant of a country's standard of living, with faster productivity growth leading to an increasingly better standard of living."http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_snapshots_archive_03222000
"The growth of productivity?output per unit of input?is the fundamental determinant of the growth of a country?s material standard of living. "http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Productivity.html
"Standard of living at risk from falling productivity: CGAs
Last Updated: Wednesday, May 23, 2007
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re. 183. David_Cunard:
""class" has nothing to do with it..."
Well, not class in the British sense of the term. More of a sense of middle-income respectability. I remember that my father as a child during the Depression moved from house to house as the family fortunes (in the loose sense of the term) ebbed. To him, owning a house, however small, was a level of security and respectability that he never experienced as a child. It went well beyond "a man's home is his castle." It certainly wasn't a little bit of heaven on earth in any real sense, but to him it meant an improvement in the family's security and social standing. That was his achievement. That and putting three kids through college and seeing them all happily married.
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By the way Ed, what is your explanation for the distribution of wealth? Why do YOU think the poorest countries are poor and the richest are rich?
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DC I think that nothing grows there is the point. If you can't even grow food there how is it sustainable to live there?
Materials were in short supply after the war in Britain but then why does that mean Americans have to build big houses away from each other.
I do not see the rational .
I would have to agree with Tim that an Image of wealth is important to many.
The illusion that they are safer is another.
In fire ridden California would it not make sense to have houses closer together in an area defensible to fire . Instead of spread up the valley sides .
If Americans are to live in such stupid locations as deserts that burn then why not think about it and not build in wood so a forest has to be ripped down to replace the burned out homes.
A bit like if they want to keep New Orleans going why not build houses that will survive a flood or build a hell of a lot better dykes .
But I digress.
Frank Lloyd Wright.
He is the reason america went ranch style , a cheap imitation of his "prairie home style"
In some cases lucky for them because Franks work was not very reliable.
Big roofs leaked etc.
Basically it is the same as why america has such gas guzzlers.
They could, and there fore they will , if they want to.
No one to say hey kids don't ruin that garden of mine.
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176. I have yet to see what case Ed is supporting. He has so far failed to offer his own explanation for the difference in living standards around the world.
175. At 11:22pm on 15 Dec 2008, happylaze wrote:
166 167
166
they do not grow many oranges in the UK.
it is a garbled mass of rubbish MA
Well of course they don't. I was using that particular good to demonstrate my point. It still holds whether im talking tea, cofee, or telecommunications equipment. And what Im trying to say is that the differences in living standards around the world dont occur because of evil westerners exploiting the third world(although of course this happens and has happened), it is due to differences in productivity. Of course a country whose economy is still based almost completely on agriculture is going to be less wealthy than a country whose undergone industrialisation. Counties are wealthy according to their ability to produce goods and services and exchange those for something of value, whether a bartered good or money.
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ii1162
back to this superior attitude of what a high living standard is?
Does that mean owning a car?
or what?
What if we were to take happiness of the people into account.
Does america have a high standard of living because they visit more shrinks, or pop more antidepressants ?
I am not saying make a comparison with some war torn country but think of them tribal people they just spotted from planes in the Amazon.
Do they have a crap standard of living?
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188 because we stole their wealth.
REAL EASY.
We create rules to keep wealth where we want it.
(just imagine how rich Afganistan could be now selling Heroine or Opium to people depressed because of their wealth and prosperity.)
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"what is this productivity rubbish that would suggest that a tribal elder with 6 kids and a grass hut with resources unmaimed who knows his world better than you know yourself is somehow lacking."
Wow. You have clearly come into the argument without scrolling up higher to the beginning and reading it from the start. In no way was I arguing that material wealth is better. Ed mentioned (98)statistics on the global distribution of wealth. I responded by saying differences in wealth spawn from differences in productivity. For some reason, he either disagrees with or does not understand this explanation.
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re. 183. David_Cunard:
I've never gardened in the West, but I suspect you would have better luck growing lettuce in the winter and early spring, unless you had shade netting. Even in Ohio, lettuce bolts by late June when the temperatures start to climb. And if you add compost to your soil, you'll find that it holds moisture better during the hot weather. A lot of subdivisions have soil that is whatever was underneath the houses when the foundations were dug. It's subsoil, not topsoil, and is basically incapable of supporting plant growth because there's no organic material in the soil.
I once gardened in an alley that had been closed off by the city and given to the property owners. Garbage trucks had rolled over it for 50 years, packing it down to the consistency of cement. I needed a pickax to break it up the first time I gardened there. I added plant residue every fall, and after about 5 years it could support a decent garden. Then I moved. But you can feed a family from a surprisingly small garden.
And try mulching with grass clippings to keep down evaporation in the summer. Or try chard instead of lettuce. And plant your tomatoes early and grow long season varieties. Basically, any Mediterranean vegetable should do well where you are. I mean, in the winter, fruits and vegetables are shipped from southern California to the Midwest, so you ought to be able to grow things if you want to. But I've never had to cope with your summer temperatures.
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192. I pity you. We stole their wealth? Sad. Really. No mention of the industrial revolution. The transition from an agricultural economy to an industrial economy. From an industrial economy to a service economy. And the corresponding wealth increases at each level.
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191. You are misconstruing what I am arguing because you have come into the debate late. I am talking about what leads to different material standards of living. I acknowledge other measurements that don't include material possesions, but that is not what this argument is about. It is about why some countries have more material possessions than others.
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If you look at countries that were considered poor 50 years ago and are considered rich today, you will see that they have become richer by increasing their productivity. They have found more efficient and productive means of farming. They have taken advantage of new technologies that have made their factories more productive. Their populace have become more educated. How can you deny this? Did they steal wealth from someone else, or just steal theirs back?
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193 I did scroll up
but it is not as you say this ppp
If it were the price of CD's in the UK would not be £15 and the price in the US $15, given an exchange rate of £1 to $1.75(average ish rateover time)
Fine I accept all you say if you can explain it in the terms of CD's (oh compact disk not some "financial"product, which is all america produced for so long until everyone found out they had it wrong.)
I would add, again ,that at the moment prize winning economists are probably rethinking their theories .
After all they could just be the economic equivalent of those that thought the world was flat.
The whole world Knows now how gifted economists have had it with their models.
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#190 MA
"..Counties are wealthy according to their ability to produce goods and services and exchange those for something of value, whether a bartered good or money..."
ok...but then:
"...Of course a country whose economy is still based almost completely on agriculture is going to be less wealthy than a country whose undergone industrialisation...."
So, a "good" or commodity is only valuable if it is produced by an industrial method. Since you suggesting a country that produces agricultural goods are something of value but only if it is produced by mechanised means.
So, lets pay a high premium for rice cultivated by machines, yet lets pay next to nothing for the same rice which is produced by "hand". The rice of course must taste better when produced by machine, otherwise why would you wish to pay more for it??..neh!
Hmmmmm
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They are creating "wealth"
Take a valley in India . they "create " wealth by flooding it and using it for energy .
People get displaced.
Who got the wealth?
How about the rich plunder their own countries and anywhere else to get rich.
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177
"Town planning in the western world was begun by Hippodamus of Miletus in the 5th century BC. Planned Greek cities had a rectilinear street pattern and rectangular city blocks. I think the ancient Chinese had city planning as well."
None of this changes the fact that city planning isn't really practiced on a regular basis. The town I live in really needs a tune up, as the street names vary depending on where you are on the street in question. It's not just that, it's a lot of things that make me wonder if these guys have a plan or not.
"In the US, most cities have urban plans, but on the outskirts it's a different story."
So the only planned cities are on the East Coast? Please, this doesn't even remotely consist of the majority of the USA population. I've been to far too many cities where there was no rhyme or reason.
S'funny, but I always thought that designing walkable cities results in a lot of growth, which means profit.
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"So, a "good" or commodity is only valuable if it is produced by an industrial method. Since you suggesting a country that produces agricultural goods are something of value but only if it is produced by mechanised means."
To the contrary thats not what I was saying at all. My point is that mechanizing agriculture allows the farmer to produce more faster. How did you miss that?
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"200. At 02:29am on 16 Dec 2008, happylaze wrote:
They are creating "wealth""
Exactly.
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199 kecs,
well hmmmmmed
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200. I have a feeling you would like to see a return to traditional hunter-gather societies. No doubt about it they were probally the happiest to have ever walked the earth, but I don't see to many people interested in returning to those Happy Days.
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"If it were the price of CD's in the UK would not be ?15 and the price in the US $15, given an exchange rate of ?1 to $1.75(average ish rateover time)
"
You have ignored the main premise of PPP, which holds in the long-run and not in the short-run. The prices of CD's will move to eventually reflect the price levels in each country. Of course there is some distortion and their are other secondary factors contributing to the different price levels between countries, but they are of secondary importance to PPP.
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"So, a "good" or commodity is only valuable if it is produced by an industrial method. Since you suggesting a country that produces agricultural goods are something of value but only if it is produced by mechanised means."
Not only does industrialisation allow for agriculture to produce more faster, it allows for new goods to be produced that arent at all possible in an agricultural economy. You won't see too many washing machines or vacumn cleaners in Nigeria.
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207. Oh wait. I forgot. We must have stole them all.
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"After all they could just be the economic equivalent of those that thought the world was flat."
Maybe. But you're no Aristotle.
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"You have ignored the main premise of PPP, which holds in the long-run and not in the short-run. The prices of CD's will move to eventually reflect the price levels in each country"
this is why I think your theory is wrong.
"eventually reflect the price levels in each country."
Hi so eventually a us$15 cd will cost us$15.
that is all you have said.
British MP have come to the states to try to figure out how come the people of the UK pay so much more for a CD.
this is a long term thing.
And it screws your
"THEORY"
Which BTW is not an absolute. it is little better than hypothesis given, again, the lack of insight shown by SOOOOO many economists.
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207 but you will see some productive people washing their own cloths, but that does not count after all to be real proper wealthy humans you have to Pay someone else to do it for you.
or buy a machine to do it for you and hire someone to fill it.
That creates wealth in your model.
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196 you try to say I have joined late and have not read up. wrong. yet here you make my point
"It is about why some countries have more material possessions than others."
I would say that is because some people are not so obsessed with material wealth.
You mock me with the comment that I did not mention the Industrial revolution.
Which is the bloody point.
Do you think the industrial revolution did not take a bit away from Africa.
That those working in the mines were better off?
that the luddites that broke the spinning jennies were a bunch of terrorist as opposed to people that did not like seeing their jobs taken by machines that killed people.
Killed people in a job that had never killed one worker before ' spinning cloth.
But now that you are riled you jump in right where I wanted you.
"Oh wait. I forgot. We must have stole them all."
"Maybe. But you're no Aristotle."
And your no genius either.
this hardly backs up our argument with ED about the FACT that americans use a hugely disproportionate amount of resources.
In fact it seems like the argument that occurred here long time back where (probably you) came on with that "America is the most productive nation "Rubbish.
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this hardly backs up our argument with ED about the FACT
should be your not our
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MA
"...My point is that mechanizing agriculture allows the farmer to produce more faster. How did you miss that?.."
"....Counties are wealthy according to their ability to produce goods and services....Not only does industrialisation allow for agriculture to produce more faster.."
Oh I see!...So, Thailand the worlds largest exporter of rice produces soooooooo much rice because of their ultra modern high technologial industry does it??
you keep on coming up with jackanory stories...superb. Better than TV ....
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Fourth try. There was a huge sign on Wall Street that said, "Jump, you bleepers, jump." Quite a change from 1929.
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212.
I am going to try and explain this one more time.I'll use a simple model based loosely on Daniel Defoe's Robinson Crusoe. Robinson Crusoe is a sailor stranded on a desert island. Because Crusoe lives alone, he catches his own fish, grows his own vegetables, and makes his own clothes. Crusoe's activities - his production and consumption of fish, vegetables, and clothing- are a simple economy. What determines Crusoe's standard of living? Productivity- the quantity of goods and services produced from each unit of labor input. If Crusoe is good at catching fish, growing vegetables, and making clothes, he lives well. If he is bad at doing these things, he lives poorly. Because Crusoe gets to consumer only what he produces, his living standard is tied to his productivity. Its easy to see that productivity is the key determinant of living standards and that growth in productivity is the key determinant of growth in living standards. The more fish caught per hour, the more he eats at dinner. If Crusoe finds a better place to catch fish, his productivity rises. This increase in productivity makes Crusoe better off: he can eat the extra fish, or he can spend less time fishing and devote more time to making other goods he enjoys. Productivity's key role in determining living standards is as true for nations as it is for stranded sailors. A country's GDP measures two things at once -the total income earned by everyone in the economy and the total expenditure on the economy's output of goods and services. The reason GDP can measure these two things simultaneously is that, for the economy as a whole, they must be equal.
Productivity is determined by physical capital, human capital, natural resources, and technological knowledge.
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Workers are more productive if they have tools with which to work. The stock of equipment and structures that are used to produce goods and services is physical capital. When woodworkers make furniture, they use saws, lathes, and drill presses. More tools allow the woodworkers to produce their output more quickly and more accurately. A worker with basic hand tools can make less furniture each work than a worker with sophisticated and specialized woodworking equipment. Human capital refers to the knowledge and skills that workers acquire through education, training, and just plain experience. Natural resources are inputs into production that are provided by nature, such as land, rivers, and mineral deposits. Differences in natural resources are responsible for some of the differences in standards of living around the world. The historical success of the U.S. was driven in part by the large supply of land well-suited for agriculture. Kuwait and Saudi Arabia are rich simply because they sit on top of some of the largest pools of oil in the world. Although natural resources can be important, they are not necessary for an economy to be highly productive in producing goods and services. Japan, for example, is one of the richest countries in the world despite having few natural resources. Trade makes Japan's success possible. They import many of the natural resources they need and export manufactured goods. Finally, there is technological knowledge - the understanding of the best ways to produce goods and services. A hundred years ago, most Americans worked on farms because farm technology required a high input of labor to feed the entire population. Today, because of advances in the technology of farming, a small fraction of Americans can produce enough to feed the entire country. This tech. change made labor available to produce other goods and services. Secondary factors that contribute to a country's living standards include its national saving and investment, investment from abroad, the education of its populace, health and nutrition, and political stability.
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This will probally be my last post. I am tired and am not convincing you of anything, and you are certainly not convincing me. Nor are we any closer to reaching some sort of middle ground or compromise.
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The following article from the University of British Columbia, Sauder School of Business, explains the theory of PPP much better than I ever could. It also addresses many of your criticisms much better than I can. Don't be stubborn. Read it, it will be worth your while.
http://fx.sauder.ubc.ca/PPP.html
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218 cool
you tell a lot of story but like your previous incarnations it is all smoke.
keep smoking
A theory and if you read more of your rants those clues like .
" differences in natural resources is responsible for some of the differences"
a bit more of the truth would help.
Theories and quit with the robinson bull how come you cannot explain the reason that those CD's are so differently priced (ie the same despite exchange).
Don't try to talk down with the simple story. this shows your THEORY to be what it is , a theory not an absolute.
that is the theory of ppp.
which BTW has absolutely nothing to do with proving that americans do not use so many resources.
"Even if I allow that American companies put pressure on your governments to allow them to sell their goods, no one can force you to spend Euros and pounds on our products."
I would agree that I as an individual can say no but would add that them oldies that know better and say "stay away from that" and get ignored have little choice.
And they will complain about their culture being eroded.
this dear memory ridden smoker is where you started on your economic theory.
"101. At 00:17am on 15 Dec 2008, ll1162 wrote:
Like This and this:
"Americans, being but 5% of the world's people, control 32% of the entire world?s wealth, "
A nations wealth and living standards is directly related to its productivity. Even if we became less productive and therefore reduced our wealth, the rest of the world would not therefore become more wealthy."
To which I would say Bull faeces .
The rest is smoke.
Are you trying to say that IF AMERICA stopped taking the unfair proportion of resources that those people in the countries that suddenly have land to grow food for themselves would not be better off, instead of exporting it to the USA .
Ed didn't even mention PRODUCTIVITY but was talking about wealth ( by which he seemed to be talking dosh based on resources).and that so few own so much.
and most of them are in the states.
How does your theoretical argument about Rob on the Island take anything away from the very basic fact that the US has used a HUGE amount to keep a very few in the excesses they have become accustomed to ?
It doesn't.
Sorry to bring you back to the beginning but next time try not to assume I wasn't reading your crap. just because I was not commenting.
And again "GIVEN THE VERY RECENT HISTORY WHY WOULD I BELIEVE AN 'ECONOMIST'"
If they say nothing that makes sense.
I would not be surprised if it were not Madoff that wrote your theory.
CD in the UK or shove your model.
There are plenty of other examples. Even if you prove your model you argument has nothing to do with america taking more than its fair share.
there like you i have repeated my self so can now feign indignation at your lack of understanding .
Humpf Humpf.
Glad I had not chance of convincing you but we all could guess that before you wrote much , .
(anyone else recognise this writing style?)
lots and lots of waffle distracting from the original statement in order to pretend there was some relevance despite there being none?
Hoping the origins of the thread get lost.
You really should look at the Blue OINK OINK.
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"you tell a lot of story but like your previous incarnations it is all smoke.
keep smoking"
This whole time I've been arguing the same thing. Productivity determines living standards. Nice rant though. Too bad you can't attack my argument on its merits. All you can say is smokescreens and the like. Men like you who don't respond to reason are the ones who can't be convinced, not I. Exactly why this conversation is over.
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219 I will. but really how does that take away from the fact that the US consumes so many resources?
"which states that exchange rates between currencies are in equilibrium when their purchasing power is the same in each of the two countries."
are in WHEN When WHEn.
"There are three caveats with this law of one price. (1) As mentioned above, transportation costs, barriers to trade, and other transaction costs, can be significant.
(2) There must be competitive markets for the goods and services in both countries.
(3) The law of one price only applies to tradeable goods; immobile goods such as houses,and many services that are local, are of course not traded between countries."
there are three reasons your ppp is wrong.
also guess what CD's still cost more in the UK.
As an easy example.
and has taken considerably more time than
"This can take many years, however. A time horizon of 4-10 years would be typical."
I'm glad to have been able to read this lovely in a vacuum theory but really.
Now as I say wealth should be measured in other ways.
" Relative PPP refers to rates of changes of price levels, that is, inflation rates. This proposition states that the rate of appreciation of a currency is equal to the difference in inflation rates between the foreign and the home country. For example, if Canada has an inflation rate of 1% and the US has an inflation rate of 3%, the US Dollar will depreciate against the Canadian Dollar by 2% per year. This proposition holds well empirically especially when the inflation differences are large."
". Different methods of calculation will arrive at different PPP rates."
seems to me it is nothing more definate than casting bones really.
PS that again is an old model "WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE ECONOMIC THEORY TODAY GIVEN THE RECENT SUCCESS OF THOSE THEORIES"
I can't shout any louder.
Sorry for being confrontational.
you make it easy smoke in the eyes is irritating.
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221 This whole time I've been arguing the same thing. Productivity determines living standards.
It is your definition of productivity that needs addressing.
Also how that relates to your argument that you claim counters
"Americans, being but 5% of the world's people, control 32% of the entire world?s wealth, "
this
"A nations wealth and living standards is directly related to its productivity"
What exactly does America produce?
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#189. happylaze: "DC I think that nothing grows there is the point. If you can't even grow food there how is it sustainable to live there?"
That question could be asked of countless countries and towns. What food is grown in New York, London or Tokyo? Britain is far more conscious of "food miles" than we are in the US and I would hazard a guess that most people here have never heard of, let alone understand, "food miles".
Since the advent of the railroads, America has always transported its food long distances, refrigerated cars being a boon when they were introduced. You may care to read or see the film of East of Eden, in which a lettuce crop (early 20th century) is sent cross-country but is ruined when the ice melts. For years, New Zealand lamb was sent to the UK by sea in refrigerated containers and today of course, nearly everything is available to any market regardless of the season. Forty years ago and more, cherries and grapes could only be seen at Christmas in upmarket British stores such as Fortnum and Mason or Harrods, whereas today every Sainsburys, Tesco and Waitrose has what were once considered luxuries.
So in answer to your question, it matters little today where one resides since virtually everything from around the world is available to those who live in the desert or more fertile lands. Much of Los Angeles would continue to be desert if it were not the importation, by aqueduct, of water. Now if that were cut off, there really would be some changes!
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164. At 8:54pm on 15 Dec 2008, marygrav:
"Maybe it is only in Vermont that Americans believe in BE FREE OR DIE. But I guess I'm paranoid as usual."
If you're paranoid than so am I, because I feel the same way. I think we have reason to be paranoid; sometimes it seems as if everyone is always trying to screw us out of our money, our time, our health and our sanity.
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"Also how that relates to your argument that you claim counters
"Americans, being but 5% of the world's people, control 32% of the entire world?s wealth, "
"
I haven't attempted to counter it all. I've attempted to explain it. Your saying its unfair. Cry me a river. I'm not going to argue about value judgements. I'm interested in factual judgements. Positive statements, not normative ones, thats my line of work.
""WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE ECONOMIC THEORY TODAY GIVEN THE RECENT SUCCESS OF THOSE THEORIES"
"
And they say anti-intellectualism is an uniquely American phenomenon. Pffft.
"What exactly does America produce?"
$13,807,550,000 worth of goods and services. Our main industries are petroleum, steel, motor vehicles, aerospace, telecommunications, chemicals, electronics, food processing, consumer goods, lumber, mining, and defense. We are also a net exporter of agricultural products, especially corn, soybean, wheat, alfalfa, cotton, hay(other than alfalfa), tobacco, rice, sorghum, and barley. Of course, our biggest cash crop is marijuana, estimated to be worth $35.8 billion.
"WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE ECONOMIC THEORY TODAY GIVEN THE RECENT SUCCESS OF THOSE THEORIES"
"
The recent economic crisis was created by politicians and business leaders, neither of which are particularly known for paying attention to the advice of economists.
"seems to me it is nothing more definate than casting bones really.
"
You greatly exaggerate the uncertainties and you very well know it. PPP has been supported over and over again empiracally.
"Now as I say wealth should be measured in other ways.
"
And like I have said, I am attempting to explain why the distribution of wealth using the measurement Ed used. Although hes not clear about it, I assume he wasn't not referring to 5% of people controlling 32% of the world's wealth in terms of happy and loving relationships.
"I can't shout any louder.
Sorry for being confrontational."
Don't be sorry. People often shout when the argument they're making is weak at best and facetious at worst. Seriously now, I'm done with this discussion. I hate having to break everything down for you in the simplest of terms.
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"$13,807,550,000 worth of goods and services. "
Actually, should be $13,807,550,000,000.
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#137 wrote:
*About the same year I recall that one owner
had so many problems with his Ford Pinto that
he and his friends dug a huge pit in front of
his dealership and held a burial ceremony.
When the dealer was asked about quality, he
replied, "What do you expect for $3000?"
This was in the early seventies, so that was
a considerable amount of money.
Another dealer proclaimed, "They're like shopping
carts, some are good and some are bad."*
Guns:
I wish I had owned a brass pair at the time to bury my Escort; alas, I had payments to make on the darned thing. (I did eventually trade it for a new Chevy Cavalier, which dropped a transmission at 35K miles---gotta love the US carmaking 80's huh?)
The dealers' comments, and the general attitude of automakers throughout the 70s-early 90s, point to a comment I made earlier. The quality of some US cars may now be in line with foreign competitors, but the quality of US automaker reputation will continue to hinder them---and perhaps sink them.
As you said, $3000 was a lot to pay in the 70's. To be told---Well, guess you got a bad grocery cart---customers don't forget attitudes like that.
I guess one positive thing for the present is that the Big 3 have so much competition in the US auto market now that I can't even imagine a dealer using the grocery cart analogy today. Honda/Toyota/KIA/Saturn/VW, one or more of these dealers is usually right next door.
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Might it have just a wee bit to do with exploitation?"...the most striking and immediate effect of the spread of
European settlement beyond the boundaries of Europe itself was
its lethal impact on indigenous peoples and societies." -- Clive Ponting (A Green History of the
World) Your "value" system is showing. A "service" economy doesn't fill bellies. It's clear that you're a "true believer", but could you produce as much as a potato?
Peace and potatoes
ed
"Our model citizen is a sophisticate who, before puberty, understands how to produce a baby,[or parrot economic theory] but who at the age of thirty will not know how to produce a potato"-- Wendell Berry
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Who appointed you chairperson?Complain about this comment
I am in agreement that a True American Loves Innovation.
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David,
My point, more or less, but consider not just cutting off thee aqueduct, but also the fuel which powers all that imported food. Then it would matter where one resides!The chief enabler of today's wasteful economy is cheap fossil fuel, and only fools believe that is going to last more than a couple of generations at most. The fossil fuel enables not only the transportation, but also the fertilisation of exhausted soils and the mechanical cultivation thereof to such an extent that often much more energy is consumed in the 'production' of food than the food eventually yields....the same idiotic process means ethanol fuel barely breaks even (depends upon assumptions) in terms of energy in versus energy out, but, of course, government subsidy means it's an "economic" goldmine...
Peace and true costings
ed
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Don't you know god is Chinese that's why it was done in 6 days.
I live in the great white north. When I purchase something I try to buy local & Canadian made goods or failing that American made. Trouble is that if one looks hard enough most of the American goods are made offshore. From the number of failures I have usually just past the end of the warranty they break. None of the breaks are cheap or easy tox because they are a permanent sub assembly and you have to buy the whole thing.
My guess is that as long as the failures occur at an acceptable level determined by some numerical model and the bottom line the manufacturers don't give a damn. Consumer brand loyalty is a waste of time since there is no way of knowing the quality of a new model. The chief concern of most buyers is "how cheap can I get it?". That's why W-mart seems to be such a sucess.
It is a sad day when the world's financial situation is largely dependent on how many TV sets in the toilet.
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A blast from the past (circa 2001)
Fools and their money
ed
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Why are the Japanese brands just so damn good? Maybe it has something to do with the underlying culture. Some good articles in CSM here.
Meanwhile, from the food for thought department, an interesting factoid: "According to the Financial Times, it often now costs more to ship a container by road 100km from a port to its final destination than it does to move the container by sea from China to Europe." So is that why Chinese garlic costs 1/10th the price of local organic?
More on that, and energy saving alternatives for shipping, here.
Of course, there's always the days of future past alternative. I want on that wine/whiskey run something terrible . . .
And just another evocative wind power image here.
Yours,
Foremast Jack Pinko
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ll1162 (#166), I expect that the theory of PPP works better for oranges than it does for land and shelter.
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re. 224. David_Cunard:
I think it's an overstatement to say that "since the advent of the railroads, America has always transported its food long distances." Some food, yes, but until relatively recently most American cities were surrounded by truck farms, which would bring in fruits and vegetables to markets in the city.
I couldn't point to when this all changed, but I know there has been an increase in long distance shipment of food since my childhood (I'm in my 50s). There are now people who don't understand the concept of out-of-season. And since all of their food, in season or not, is picked green and shipped, they can't taste any difference anyway. Personally, I try to buy in small local markets that work with local growers, or in farmers' markets. And I try to buy seasonally. I think one reason for the obesity problem in this country is that so much of the food is tasteless because it wasn't ripe when picked. We pile on fat and salt and sauces so it will have some flavor.
In response to your statement about it mattering little where one resides, that depends on cheap energy for shipment and a lack of environmental controls. If Americans ever had to pay the true cost (production, labor, shipment, and environment) for their food, a lot of long-distance shipment would wither away. The same goes for cheap goods produced in China. If the Chinese start paying their workers decently, paying for food and product safety controls, and paying for environmental controls, their products wouldn't be so cheap any more. And a lot of the shrinkage in income in America has been masked by the influx of cheap goods from the Far East.
Between the smog, earthquakes, and water resources it seems like Los Angeles is permanently on the edge of some environmental disaster. Isn't there a lot of competition over water resources between farmers and the cities in southern California?
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timohio (#237), water is a big deal throughout the American west. There are shortages in California every few years, depending on winter precipitation. They don't do much about it, though. There's always a lot of talk directed at individuals to conserve, although there's very little to be saved there, comparitively.
For example, when I moved to California several years age, we were in the midst of a draught of a few year's extent. I worked in an industrial park typical of the Silicon Valley area. Most of the buildings had lawns, with built-in sprinkler systems. At night, the sprinklers would come on and run so long that the excess water would run off into the streets. Nobody ever used these lawns for anything, of course. They were only for show. A very small proportion of companies removed their lawns, replacing them with native semi-desert landscaping.
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236 and after all the biggest wealth in the us was it's homes, Or so it would seem by the present state of affairs.
Dc al above have explained that what you are saying is you just think people cannot live a sustainable life.
I have a solution, mandate it by law, make it illegal to not be, or work to that stage. as California has tried to some extent(more than most) ,but only really on emissions.
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Tim
Indeed, but even that was a substantial increase in the agricultural 'footprint' available to a city - allowing a growth in population which will be difficult to sustain in the absence of powered transport.A rading of Aldo Leopold's seminal Land Ethic may be illuminating, Now which poster here does that recall...?
Peace and the Land
ed
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#232. Ed Iglehart: "consider not just cutting off the aqueduct, but also the fuel which powers all that imported food. Then it would matter where one resides!"
That can be said of the UK equally as of Los Angeles; I haven't checked the statistics, but my guess is that more food is imported into Britain than it produces. Salad greens, tomatoes and so forth which are seasonal there can be found all year round. How much wheat is imported to make flour and bread? And we know that bananas, oranges and lemons are not native to England, Scotland or Wales, so they too have to be imported. The West Coast of America is not the only user of fossil fuels to feed the population!
I have no doubt that before the last drop of oil is extracted and used, some alternative will be found, but not in my lifetime. Human ingenuity has solved such problems before and I expect it to do so again.
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Gary,
That reminds me...;-)
ed
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238
Good example
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#237. timohio: "I think it's an overstatement to say that "since the advent of the railroads, America has always transported its food long distances."
How then do you explain beef from Texas, pork from Chicago, green-grocery from California, oranges from Florida and California, poultry from god-knows-where, and so on? The average consumer doesn't go to "small local markets" but dashes in the local supermarket. Despite the rise of companies such as Whole Foods, the supermarket holds sway for the majority, and most will not care whether the goods are from five miles away or five thousand.
With regard to taste, here in California we can actually get fruit which tastes as it is supposed to, but I understand what you say about it being picked green and therefore being tasteless. I'm all for eating things which are strictly "in season" which was how I was brought up (in Britain) but I fear that the public expects to be able to buy, for example, strawberries every day of the year. Not only in the USA but in Europe and South American as well.
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Ed (#242), that item is great!
By the way, I meant "drought" of course, not "draught." Speaking of "draught," however, I just read today that the EU has decided not to outlaw the pint in the UK, at least for "draught" purposes. That's a relief.
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David,
Indeed so. The UK government proudly proclaim GB to be 60% self-sufficient in foodstuffs, while not emphasising that this has declined from around 72% since 1994/5....Some analysis
And, from DEFRA
Self-sufficiency Avg 1996-8; 2006; 2007 (est)
% of all food 68.6; 59.5; 60.5;
% of indigenous type food 82.2; 72.5; 73.9
As I noted earlier, it can be said of almost all the densely populated areas, but especially of the conurbations.
Actually, I'm surprised that the UK is as high as 60%, and I'm a bit sceptical of the statistics...
Peace and allotments
ed
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242 class ed
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David_Cunard (#44), it's not merely that produce is picked green. Another reason for blandness is that commercial varieties are chosen for appearance and shipping and handling qualities before taste. There are at least a hundred varieties of apple in the US, but only a few in supermarkets. The best apples I ever ate were my grandmother's june apples right off the tree (I'm not sure of the precise varietal name). The best I ever bought were Firesides from the farmer's market in St. Paul, Minnesota. I've never encountered a Fireside anywhere else.
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David,
and Human ingenuity is the source of such problems. Your faith is touchingAnd, then there's this, Wherein, as earlier with regard to the public "demand" for suburban housing, you suggest that such things are "inevitable" and thus not worth resisting (or even discussing) and, in similar vein,Peace and the miracle of life
ed
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"Your "value" system is showing. A "service" economy doesn't fill bellies. It's clear that you're a "true believer", but could you produce as much as a potato?
"
No, it's not. You have no idea what my moral values are. I don't believe in laissez-faire capitalism, but I'm not a communist either. I believe mixed economies work best. And I do care about the environment and inequalities in wealth, but in order to address those issues, you have to start from a paradigm that is reality based, with an accurate understanding of what causes those inequalities in wealth. And a service economy does fill bellies, with a fraction of the labor that an agricultural economy does. Thats what frees up labor to manufacture goods and perform other services. The United States has about 3% of its population devoted to agriculture, yet we grow enough for our own population and then some. And I do know how to produce a potato, interestingly enough, but I enjoy growing tomatoes and chile peppers much more. But thats just it. I dont NEED to know how to produce a potato because a small fraction of my countrymen can produce enough to feed everyone. In agricultural countries people frequently starve to death, because they rarely grow enough to live above a basic subsistence level. And when the crop doesnt come in this harvest... fill in the blank. I think you're being sanctimonious, with this romantic vision of pre-industrial societies and how wonderful they had and have it, ignoring the hardships in their daily lives caused by subsistence living... ie. famine, disease... Who made you the one who gets to decide that their life is so grand... that they should continue living that way. I'm not some kind of cold-hearted capitalist pig, as you know doubt think I am.
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250 never though you were .
but where do those service economies get their food, if no one grows it.
PS no one in europe smokes that american weed . that stays in the country.
But what is it that stops Afganistan or Indea selling their Hashish here. Laws. not supply demand exchange rates etc.
I certainly was not questioning beyond your statements that really are based not in reality but in the restricted framework of pretending that there is no alternative.
There are many around the world ready to start the process but because of Neeeyyyy sayers they get no money to fund research in that direction.
That 3 % growing is really very reliant on the others that mine drill build the stuff that make it possible to allow only 3% to grow.
That same technology, mining, oil extraction etc is what is doing the planet a disfavour, it would seem to most these days.
That 3% is erroneous , in the old days etc there were some things that worked better.
I was shocked to hear that crop rotation (taught at primary school in the uk when I were a sprog) is a thing of exception here in the US.
Go read the "farmer in Chief " letter.
It will be easy to find just google.
Is it productive to take fruit from the valley here ship them to mexico and bring them back?
Your measure of productivity is just wrong .
That is the reason we got right here to this situation.
People in Power getting it so wrong and just not accepting that academics have done a lot to show this is not working.
Global warming is real and so is the possibility to do something regressive in technological terms to benefit the world.
"Advancement" should be considered VERY carefully at his stage.OR we could just spend all the energy and time fighting wars over water etc because we could not be bothered to do something earlier.
We will have to advance some issues and technology just to avoid that bloodshed but the GOAL should be sustainability. not your , money equations that frankly are not that great anyway.
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"That 3 % growing is really very reliant on the others that mine drill build the stuff that make it possible to allow only 3% to grow."
No man. Its the other way around. The ability to grown our own food with 3$ of the population is what makes it possible for people to work at minging and drilling and all that. Mining and drilling have very little to do with farming anyway so Im not sure of the relevance of that.
"but where do those service economies get their food, if no one grows it."
"Your measure of productivity is just wrong ."
No, its not. Its what your government uses, its what my government uses, its what the U.N., the E.U., the World Bank, and the IMF uses. Everyone else must be wrong, and you right. That sounds likely.
"Global warming is real and so is the possibility to do something regressive in technological terms to benefit the world.
"
Yes, it is real, but the possibility to do something about it wont come from pushing back the clock, or "regressive" in technological terms, it will be progressive, ie, solar, wind, and others. Like the high distance lines people have been working so hard to develop, that will make it possible to transport electricity developed from solar panels in Arizaon over 4,000 miles. Most of the scientists who are working on solutions to global warming are working from the same paradigm of productivity I've been talking about. The few who want to turn back the clock have very little chance of succeeding, not because we're holding them back, but because they aren't based in REALITY. Global warming and alternative energy are an active interest of mine. And people like the nobel prize winning physicist who just got nominated for Energy Secretary isn't a neo-luddite, I can promise you that, but people like him are the future of our survival and the solutions to our problems.
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"But what is it that stops Afganistan or Indea selling their Hashish here. Laws. not supply demand exchange rates etc."
True, if marijuana is decriminalised, something I strongly support, than the market for it WILL be governed by supply demand exchange rates etc.
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"Your measure of productivity is just wrong .
"
"not your , money equations that frankly are not that great anyway.
"
Man, they're not MY definitions or equations. I don't know why I haven't pointed this out yet. They were developed by brilliant, educated, intelligent men, who conducted DECADES of research. Men like Alfred North Whitehead, John Meynard Keynes... etc. They're use is ubiquitous. Do a google on labor productivity. Do a google on productivity function. Earlier you talked about academics. THEY developed these ideas, and they are much smarter, and have years of experience to back up their arguments. Like I said, just do a google on productivity function. You will see it talked about it economic journals, newspapers, online encyclopedias, everything. Like I said, ubiquitous.
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The first several hits from a google search on "labor productivity":
www.bls.gov/lpc/
www.bls.gov/news.release/prod2.nr0.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_productivity
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Productivity
News results for labor productivity
Canada.com Labour productivity unchanged in Q3: StatsCan - Dec 10, 2008
OTTAWA ? Statistics Canada reports labour productivity did not change much in the third quarter, extending the weakness that began in the second quarter of ...The Canadian Press - 33 related articles »
Canadian productivity continues to lag - Canada.com - 33 related articles »
UPDATE 1-Canada productivity flat in Q3 2008 - Reuters - 33 related articles »
The Daily, Wednesday, December 10, 2008. Labour productivity ... After declining for four consecutive quarters, labour productivity in the business sector remained unchanged in the third quarter of 2008.
www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidien/081210/dq081210b-eng.htm
TAKING THE MYSTERY FROM LABOR PRODUCTIVITY One of the more significant economic statistics to be released of late concerns labor productivity. This is an interesting topic and widely non-understood ...
members.cox.net/lardaro/labor_prod.htm
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252 Have you read that letter yet. "the farmer in chief" one?
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South-Western EconData -- Labor Productivity Labor Productivity refers to the quantity of output produced by a given quantity of labor input. Let's first consider the microeconomics of Labor ...
www.swlearning.com/economics/econ_data/labor_productivity/labor_productivity_definition.html
[0812.0208] International Comparison of Labor Productivity ... Abstract: Labor productivity was studied at the microscopic level in terms of distributions based on individual firm financial data from Japan and the US. ...
arxiv.org/abs/0812.0208
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"Have you read that letter yet. "the farmer in chief" one?"
No but I will right now.
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254 irrelevant
decades of research decades ago.
255 Irrelevant.
Most of the scientists working on a solution do not think that america is the innocent you try to portray when taking this discussion up.
On american durable brands ideas.
the bathroom sink (which better than many american kitchen sink at least has an overflow).
A tube to a sewer a plug on a chain.
Now that's too old for americans we have to have a lever so we do not have to get wet.
That lever pushes the plug up, and the water tries to drain past the workings .
So when the lazy(not this lazy) gets a blocked drain the plumber drives out to their house and pulls the gunk out and replaces the part.
How is that productive. but to my point here (not yours, given up arguing when you cannot return the courtesy of reading the article mentioned):);)
Those plugs are probably popping up all over europe .
people are probably thinking "Great" no wet hands at the sinklol.
No one told them it blocks up easy because the first principle of sanitary design is not to create obstructions to the flow.
Then they can say "crappie American rubbish"
coming here ruining our sinks with their lies.
yea people can reject americanism. but they are open and don't do it until they see that there is something not so good about it.
Some cases it is great like rootbeer.
smetimes it is crap like american plumbing.
problem is americans approach marketing differently.
they believe that you can say what you like if the other is sucker enough to believe it.
now in the UK they have advertising standards that would stop many american ads being shown .
they also have this thing where is you sell them too much crap while always pretending how great it is they eventually start down the "american crap "road.
with the sink example it would be when their granny who lives too far away to help is on the phone complaining about that new bathroom suite put in.
But it is OK because by sending someone out to fix junk , or having a return policy that says if it breaks bring it back because they know the goods are basically disposable helps the "productivity" of a nation.
You claim to live in the real world but have yet to explain the very real complaint that Brits have over CD prices.
Is it because there is no way.
and that you still talk a lot of Theory.
PS I think somewhere I recommended roofing in solar .Way before you showed up
But then I'm not realistic or into reality.
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258 thankyou.
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Irrelevant. That's your response. I have showed you how ubiquitous the definition of productivity is amongst experts who study these statistics, and you say irrelevant? I read your article. I did not find much to disagree with. I just don't see how it contradicts my statement that the distribution of wealth has more to do with productivity and less to do with exploitation. Thats why all those news articles, all those government bureaus of labor statistics, thats why they are all concerned when labor productivity slumps. The economy tanks. You are so unreasonable it is unbelieveable. you somehow know better than everyone else... you have some insight that thousands of experts producing hundreds of pages of research, not just decades ago but RIGHT NOW, today, don't have. Remarkable.
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"problem is americans approach marketing differently. they believe that you can say what you like if the other is sucker enough to believe it."
I'm sure used car salesmen have the same reputation in the U.K. as they do in the states. As far as the toilets go, if people become dissatisfied with them, shouldn't sales drop off? Surely the problem is self-correcting. Word of mouth spreads the news that American toilets are crap and then people stop buying them...
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#117. Jeebers76: "113, uhm, you do know that using the refrigerator/freezer is an inherently practical act when trying to preserve food, don't you? Would you rather that meat go to waste? If being wise is "so American", then I'm proud of it!"
Not if you're going back to nature it isn't - #102. AmericanGrizzly had implied that he was a survivalist, huntin', shootin' an fishin' to put food on the family table. Under those conditions, a freezer is entirely inappropriate.
Americans refrigerate everything, much of it quite unnecessary. Even pickles (a form of preservation) are put in the fridge along with things like mustard and ketchup. How did the "Wild West" survive without refrigeration? This is not to say that I disapprove of it - I have a full size freezer and refrigerator (energy efficient) in my own kitchen, but if I was foraging for food and growing it on my own land, I wouldn't need it - it would be fresh into the pot. Milk can be drunk direct from the cow - and it doesn't need to be chilled before the next lot is available.
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distribution of wealth has more to do with productivity and less to do with exploitation.
OK, new topic didn't realise you had moved on from americans using hugely disproportionate amount of resources.
or in standard models america holding disproportionate wealth.
I really am fed up with your smoke buddy so whatever.
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263 Ahh DC that comment about refrigeration is so true, EGGS.
in the UK they came on the shelf here in the fridge.
is that because they are "fresh eggs" .
Now come winter it is nice to have some saved up cause the chicken quits layin.
smoke jerky is one way of keeping meat.
but a bit tough.
but grizzly just implied he might need to be a survivalist to survive the economists.
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if milk gets old you make cheese.mmmm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheese
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but you need cheese making skills
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and even less to do with sustainability. They (like industrial agriculture) are "extractive" industries, which actually "produce" nothing.From your source:So it varies directly with mechanisation and the amount of extra-metabolic energy consumed. A bit like GNP, which counts all economic activity (including war, pestilence, car crashes, ambulance journeys, firestorms, etc. as positive.
Just another measure for those who believe in infinite growth in a finite system...Peace and true productivity (including externalities)
ed"Externality" also includes the fact that all extractive industries consider all natural resources "free" and only count the cost of "getting" them. They are presumed to be "free gifts" of Nature, as is (in general) the repair of the damage involved in their getting and use and ultimate disposal. This is one of the major flaws in so-called Neoclassical economics.
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P.S. in true full cost accounting, when all "externalities" are internalised and fully accounted, there is virtually no room for "profit", and thus, "All profit is Nature's loss." -- Arne Naess
Peace ant honest accounting
ed
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David,
My mother used to say "artificial ice" was what enabled the settling of Florida....Grizzly'll be OK with his deepfreeze, so long as he's got a windmill to power it, or even a source of natural gas..., and anyone who grows vegetables (or kills game) will know there are periods of glut...Peace and self-reliance
ed
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s far as the toilets go, if people become dissatisfied with them, shouldn't sales drop off?
Ha lets see NO.
Because they need to crap.
but I was talking sinks and went into some length about it in bathroom suites not BOGS. BATHROOM.a room with a bath.
Nah just being provocative but in the UK it is considered common to refer to the BOG as the Bathroom.
If you do that in my bathroom you would get kicked.
still just humour.
but seeing as you bring that up . why have all in the same room?
becoming popular in new houses but then americans seem to like privacy everywhere but their bogs.
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080820110255AAExa6E
(a = druggies can be seen, not a lot of people know that)
Council estates before choice in architecture figured it out. one BOG , one bathroom.
Two people can do two different things at the same time. smart people back then.
Plus you can have a shower without smelling someone else's smells. Which you would think would be real popular here in the nasally intolerant states.(in this case with good reason sometimes;).
but I have digressed. back to that bathroom sink flow problem.
How often have you discussed your "faucets" the frequency of blocking.
I bet word does not spread very quickly. and would point out that sometimes that means people will buy them but regret them but not be able to pay to have the expensive "new" troublesome unit replaced.
I also suspect if you went to the manufacturers and said " every year for 5 years now I've had to xclear this thing .
What gives? I never had to do that with the old one(ps kitchen sinks are even worse in the states but I won't go further on that).
I want my money back take you piece of crap."
They would look at you and fill a toilet while laughing at you.
"TOO LATE MATE."
Eventually given peoples desire to seek better products they will figure out that these new things are crap, but then the old ones are no longer made , the factory was closed down and the employees are working at wally world now.
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"261. At 11:20pm on 16 Dec 2008, ll1162 wrote:
Irrelevant. That's your response. I have showed you how ubiquitous the definition of productivity is amongst experts who study these statistics, and you say irrelevant? I read your article. I did not find much to disagree with. I just don't see how it contradicts my statement that the distribution of wealth has more to do with productivity and less to do with exploitation."
because it points out that productivity is measured in stupid ways.
read it again.
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#261 ||1162
I just don't see how it contradicts my statement that the distribution of wealth has more to do with productivity and less to do with exploitation.
It looks like you need to reread your Marx. Wealth is created from ownership or control of the means of production. Which is based on exploitation if my memory serves me well. Unfortunately for brevity I won't go into detail, but I'm sure there's a wealth of detail on the internet.
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261 just because something is ubiquitous ,does not make it right, as it happens.
just that it is encountered a lot.
And I have NO doubt there are worlds of idiots out there.
the denial of global warming WAS ubiquitous.
belief in the wmd's was ubiquitous
belief in GW was ubiquitous in the states (for a while after 9/11)
the belief that Anti semite only means against Jew seems to be ubiquitous
the though that the earth was flat was ubiquitous .
but wrong
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"I'm sure there's a wealth of detail on the internet."
Ah, I get your point. Who controls that wealth? I remember when typing 'famous french victories' into google gave back something unexpected. We all know that wikipedia is not necessarily accurate. The internet is used to manipulate and misinform us. Exploit us if you will.
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re. 244. David_Cunard:
I was responding to your statement that "since the advent of the railroads, America has always transported its food long distances."
The first boom in railroad construction in the US happened from the 1830s to the 1860s. By and large, agriculture was still local during this period and would be for nearly a century. Chicago didn't become a meat-packing center until the 1860s. Cattle were shipped by rail to Chicago from rail heads in the west and and for quite a while the only meat that was shipped long distance was canned meats (remember Spam?). Other than that, for quite a while I think the only long distance transport of food was the shipment of grain, for which storage wasn't a problem. American soldiers in World War II were dreadfully familiar with canned meat, powdered eggs, and powdered milk. The episode from East of Eden you cite was an example of why lettuce was not generally shipped long distances in the early 20th century.
The big boom in long distance transportation of food came after World War II, which in my terms makes it relatively recent. I came after World War II myself, and I like to think of myself as relatively recent. There are a lot of foods commonly in supermarkets today that I quite clearly remember being expensive rarities in the winter when I was a child.
But yes, I agree that the average consumer today expects all fruits, vegetables, meats, etc. to be available any time of the year, and doesn't think about what it takes to make that happen. I have nothing against farmers in Chile, but I really don't think that shipping fruit in December from there to Ohio makes a lot of sense. I'll eat my Arkansas Black apples and enjoy the seasonal variation in my diet. If I want to have fresh fruits and vegetables year-round, I can always brave the smog, the drought, the earthquakes, the brush fires, and the mortgages and move to California.
For people who are used to food shipped long distance, it can be a revelation to taste something fresh. Even potatoes taste different and have a different texture when they are fresh. I started vegetable gardening in a big way when my son was young, so he could know what fresh food tasted like and where food actually came from--the earth, not the supermarket. He's now a young adult and is very health-conscious and environmentally aware, so I guess I did the right thing.
By the way, some pickles, called refrigerator pickles are not fully processed and must be refrigerated. I used to make those but don't have the time now. And commercial pickles in jars do need to be refrigerated once the jar has been opened. These aren't the real brine-cured pickles you may be thinking of.
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#276. timohio: "For people who are used to food shipped long distance, it can be a revelation to taste something fresh. Even potatoes taste different and have a different texture when they are fresh."
Nothing quite like those very small, new potatoes which can never be found in a supermarket; fresh boiled with just some butter. But mature potatoes can be stored all winter in sacks and in the dark. My father was a keen gardener (in the UK) and kept us in seasonal vegetables (and flowers) all year long. He designed his vegetable garden so that there were early and late varieties, although, as Ed remarks, there was occasionally a glut of, say, beans (runner beans, not the kind known as French beans) - but these could be preserved with salt. Like most of the British, we did not then have a refrigerator, let alone a freezer, but still managed to have balanced diet the year long. As a boy and young adult, I was accustomed to having really fresh vegetables - picking and shelling peas and ten minutes later, into the pot and thence our stomachs! We didn't have chicken, but relatives did, and the eggs would be fresh every morning.
Pickles - the word has become misused, since pickling is preservation. Think of pickled onions and pickled eggs, both particularly British. I don't think I ever saw American pickles (baby cucumbers) in Britain although today they may be available, since everything else American is. But not my own favourite!
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timohio (#276), even in California we import produce from Chile, Mexico, and elsewhere when it's out of season or otherwise unavailable here.
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re. 277. David:
I remember completely astonishing my toddler son by digging potatoes out of the ground. I think his jaw literally dropped. I suspect it was the last time I really impressed him :-)
We usually eat from the garden from the spring through the fall. The menu depends on what is ready to harvest. In many ways we have a kind of Depression-era lifestyle, with computers grafted onto it. I sort of overdid it on okra this past summer, so we ate a lot of that until I couldn't look at it anymore and we started giving it to the neighbors. Some summers it's zucchini or beans that happens with.
American pickles are not actually baby cucumbers. They're a variety of cucumber that never gets longer than what you see in the jar. I grow them because I think they taste better when fresh. Gerkins are even smaller. In the Midwest, pickling cucumbers are called pickles, even if they haven't been processed in brine. The mysteries of American vernacular language.
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Gerkins are even smaller
lol
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on the economics debate
"If I had a dollar for every news story in which the golden rule of investment has been dusted off and repeated over the last five days, I would be able to pay back Bernie Madoff's investors myself."
matt frei bbc
I suspect the same would apply to the economists this year.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7786813.stm
kevin connoly not matt frei
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Apologies if you have already read this, but I came across this op-ed piece from the NYT by Thomas Friedman regarding American banking corruption that I think is worth reading.
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And in the same article @ 283 is this little gem:
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A sucker born every minute! Madoff's "Marks"
As old as the pyramids....greed breeds gullibility.
;-)
ed
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#285 Ed
It looks like the amount of money expressed in that WSJ article only (sic) amounts to $27bn!! That's only just over half the amount he swindled. Makes you wonder who else was conned, or are some not being truthful about their exposure.
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dceilar
interesting reading.
good stuff
why is it so many smart people cannot see what us dummies see , until it is too late.
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Dceilar,
There are a lot of "N/A" entries ("not available"?) in that list. An interesting set of folk, all in all...
Peace and secret handshakes
ed
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288
lol ED it is a real interesting list.
how many were " free masons " I wonder?
I wonder how many will be drinking silver filled vodka this year?
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from the same article comes this gem of a question .that guy was lucky he was not addressing me.
?So, just how corrupt is America??
Oh boy where to start.
how about police sit on bikes all day collecting fines and not solving crimes, because they get paid indirectly from the fines.
for us minions that never go near the wall St
Or the number of people in jail because there is money in housing prisoners.
Answer to the question should really be
"no more than any other third world country"
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#287 happylaze
I suppose if we are content in admitting we are dummies then we accept that there is always some smart alec ready to con us. So we are naturally wary of some get rich schemes and the smooth talking son of a guns that come with them.
You don't have to be smart to be cynical.
Cynicism seems to be a great leveller. lol
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291 lol
Sorey too implie yu wasn't smawt
;)
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Basic building blocks for a pyramid...
Bricks and mortar
ed
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Hey, it's Bernard 'The Ponz' Madoff!
Oh Happy Days
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294
lol
oh he's so funny I'll give him a billion.
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Hindsight of foresight?
Ah, Prometheus!ed
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296 I'm still laughing thanks Ed.
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Foxes guarding our hens
Peace and porn
ed
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Re #43.
Although an American, I lived in Australia for some 18 years so I am very familiar with the Commodore and the Ford Fairlane, in fact I owned a Commodore for a short while (a very short while!). I grant you that the engine and mechanicals of these cars are, or were, very good. My beef is with the quality of the finish. Nothing fitted properly together. Interior panels kept falling off, lights didn't work properly, glove box door kept opening when going over the smallest bump, the exhaust pipe kept falling off and dragging on the ground. You just needed to look under the hood to see that the panels has slots which enabled them to slide about to get them to, as near as dammit, fit together.
Having had Hondas for the last 20 years, everything just works. Look under the hood and there are no adjustable slots. Everything fits exactly. I have just sold my 18-year old Honda Accord (with over 315,000 kms on the clock on the same engine) which I bought new in 1990 and bought a CRV (to accommodate my four labradors). The finish is unbelieably good. Both these cars were built in Thailand, 80% from locally manufactured parts. Honda and Toyota now export their cars made in Thailand to Australia.
If GM, Ford and Chrysler had been able to offer the quality of finish that Honda and Toyota have done over the years, they would not be in the position that they are today.
Just my 2 c. worth.
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I have been following the discussion on PPP between Happylaze and ||1622 which has become rather heated on one side. At the risk of further angry posts, might I suggest another perspective that might help to throw more light on the subject. Without being rude, the position espoused by ||1622 is rather more academic than can be understood by the average person.
The Economist (a London-based weekly economic magazine distributed throughout the world) has a more simple explanation regarding PPP. They call it "The Big Mac Index".
They use the cost of a Big Mac say, in the US, and compares what the cost of a Big Mac should be, say, in Nigeria, given the difference in the cost of living and the actual cost in that country. They apply the principle to many countries' economies and illustrates clearly how PPP (or the "Big Mac Index") works and how it is distorted by regulation (imposed by politicians).
Since these are simple but practical examples of how PPP works, a clearer picture might emerge. Check it out. You will find it most helpful.
It is no accident that Economics is called "the dismal science". Economic principles are misinterpreted and corrupted by politicians who have no idea about the subject since most of them are lawyers, which is why it is very hard to convince those who have never studied basic economic principles. Most people judge the subject based upon their own experiences which are clouded by the fact politics has interfered and distorted the market, e.g. with customs tariffs, sales tax and other market-distorting mechanisims..
I would be interested to hear any constructive comments rather than abuse but if abuse it is, so be it.
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Re my 299 above.
More information on the Big Mac Index can be had here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index
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Re my #300 above.
More information on the Big Mac Index can be had here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index
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