The case against Obama's New Deal
Sorry to go on and on about infrastructure, but there is nothing more important - this piece cogently sets out the opposing view that the Obama New Deal will not work.
It seems to me that it misses the point though, which is that the spending he envisages will not just be spending for the sake of it, but will be investment in future productivity gains, and thus the abiilty of the US to pay itself (or the Chinese) back.
Paul Volker (who choked off the last big inflation in the early 80s) will be on hand to advise on how to damp things down when the time comes, but crucially when the time comes the bridges will not be falling down and broadband will be available everywhere and you will be able to get from Washington's main airport into town on a train, as you can at virtually every other industrial world capital city...
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I don't think any of these "experts" really know what will work. We've had plenty of them in the past quarter century, and look where we are. The connection with FDR is his strategy of doing something, rather than nothing. If it doesn't work, do something else. We don't need another Hoover.
Granted, the New Deal did not end the depression, but it did put people to work and it built a lot of things which today are among our greatest architectural treasures - buildings which are not merely beautiful, but still functional. As long as we are building things which are needed, I'm for it.
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It doesn't at all miss the point. The point is not about "infrastructure" or about "government spending". The "point" is about something akin to a new New Deal, i.e. government spending on social programs. There's never any objections to "soft and frightened" corporations running to the government for help. The so-called "tough love" is always reserved for the proles. They're the ones that have to suffer most in any recession - or depression - and the ones who "recover" least whenever its officially over. Talking of "natural" economic cycles taking their course is another ideological slight-of-hand by apologists for the staus quo to make it appear not only inevitable but desirable. But there's still time to slash the military budget, revert to the corporate and income taxation rates of the Eisenhower era and shift spending priorities to social ends. Just don't count on Obama Copacabana to do it. But at least it's a convenient way to shift attention from the "no more important" issue of the Middle East. You think you've got it bad...
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That article you linked to Justin sounds like some Reaganite/Thatcherite tosh that's barely worth reading. I don't know how anyone can argue that we should let the market sort it out when it created the mess and shows no signs of sorting it. The entire Capitalist system would have collapsed if central banks didn't bail out the banks!
Considering that public sector debt is over $11 trillion the $700 billion that Obama wants is merely a rounding up figure! Obama will raise the money the same way Bush did - from the next generation of tax payers (at least they'll get more value for money from Obama). I'm pretty sure that the writer wasn't complaining when Bush ran up the hugh deficit in the first place.
Why would China want the US economy to weakened even further when it's in it's interests to prop up the American economy?
He is right about the printing extra money argument being a non starter - you'll have high inflation and, at the same time, negative growth; in other words: stagflation.
I agree with you Justin, he does miss the point and on so many levels.
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I doubt Navarro misses your point - he just disagrees with it, because he just knows that government spending can't ever lead to anything productive.
He contradicts himself: after admitting business investment has stopped, he claims government deficits will 'crowd it out' this non-existent investment.
He also misses that a sustained fall in asset and commodity prices doesn't stimulate demand, because wages will be going down, too - which is why Obama's objective of safeguarding/creating jobs is important, too.
Volcker is 81, so there's a good reason for hoping the recession isn't too long, right there.
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Investing in infrastructure should not be seen under the prism of having to replace or repair our crumbling and antiquated roads, bridges, levies, power grid, schools, and factories, or even as a vehicle to create badly needed jobs to stimulate the economy; it would be an engine that could create new industries in fields such as alternative fuels, more efficient modes of transportation, a redesign of suburbia, the emergence of new eco-friendly structures and towns, and clean factories.
The effects of this investment could be as far reaching and tangible as the initiatives put forth by FDR and Ike decades ago. Waging war benefits a few, spending on improvements at home would help all segments of our society, would make us more competitive, would improve our standard of living, and by default would improve the long term security of our country.
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What the article misses entirely is that if you don't put people to work then you must put them on welfare. By putting them to work you not only provide money for them to live decently, you also produce something of value. A truly dumb article.
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All in all, I tend to agree with everyone here except proles. Where Obama is concerned, I intend to refrain from evaluating him until he's actually spent a year or so in office. During that time, I and everyone else will be trying to help fix things, and simultaneously watching the Democrats as a whole. Put simply, DON'T JUDGE OBAMA OR THE DEMOCRATS UNTIL THEY HAVE HAD A CHANCE TO DO SOMETHING! SHEESH! Fertheluvva.....
My question is, why in God's name is Justin or anyone else listening to the Christian Science Monitor? Aren't they more than a little biased toward the right? From what I can see, Obama's ticking off both the left and the right, which is a good thing for a centrist!
Isn't paying constant heed to the religious right exactly what got the GOP in the apocalyptic political disaster it's in now? The only saving grace from the Republican view is that they can STILL use the (highly dishonorable) tactic of filibustering, which is a great waste of time when whole globe is in crisis mode.
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Message from a friend:
N.B.: It appears that 80% is also among the banned ;-(Me? I missed out on it all due to a case of flu
SAD
ed
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Nothing more important than infrustructure eh Justin? Really? "nothing?" not even health care? Not even human rights? Interesting. I wonder how many people agree with you on this point.
"When the time comes the bridges will not be falling down and broadband will be available everywhere and you will be able to get from Washington's main airport into town on a train, as you can at virtually every other industrial world capital city..."
I don't think a person exists who thinks that improving infrustructure is a bad and unnecessary idea. Rather I think there are just differing opinions on how to go about improving our infrustructure. Everyone and their mother knows that our infrustructure is so rediculous its laughable!! You don't need to remind us. Heck! Just the fact that one can't get from the main airport into town on a train in the world's most powerful city is unbelieveable and unacceptable enough without all of these added embarrissments to face!
Hate to tear you away from the single most important thing on earth, but another item in the news today (the guilty plee of the 9/11 mastermind) has been a subject of much discussion among those who view human rights as equal to a nation's infrustructure on the importance scale, and I would love to know your thoughts. Do you think the US will ever be able to overcome the stain on our reputation that is Guantanimo Bey? Do you think we were just in its inicial set-up? What do you make of the guilty plee?
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Some people still do not grasp that printing money, backed by debt instruments, is still a Ponzi scheme.
How do you think the tremendous expenditures entailed by WW II were financed?
By school children buying War Bond stamps?
Obama's New Deal can be financed the same way as WW II!
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The case against Obama's New Deal is the same as the one against FDR's New Deal. Despite the hoopla and liberal lionization of FDR, his New Deal did nothing to end the Depression. Unless the US decides to become a socialist nation, Government funding can only produce short term employment gains. NRA and WPA projects did much good in the 30s, no one is denying that--road, bridges, dams and other building projects are important. But nothing in the WPA or any other New Deal program created a self-sustaining private industry. Only the massive armaments and military draft of World War 2 provided the long term employment needed to end the depression.
All the govt. programs proposed by Obama provide short term employment prospects. The economic infrastructure of the US can only be improved by the the development of private industries. And the "green" technologies pushed by Obama and others are not self-sustaining industries. Like the farcical Ethanol program, these "industries" will require long term subsidies from the US govt--mainly because they are not free market industries. They are being forced on the US public by government decree, regardless of whether there is any market for them.
Despite the rebuke of President Bush's administration, Americans are a center-right population. Obama's welcome will disappear quickly if he begins pushing the anti-free market agenda being celebrated on the internet. Remember, America elected Eisenhower over Stevenson, Nixon over Humphrey and Reagan over Carter. They will return to their senses soon enough.
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Does anyone know who has been banned and why? It would be helpful to understand what happened. I, for one, don't know.
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#8 Ed
I truly hope that we haven't gotten to banning. Despite the occasional rancor, this is one of the most thought-provoking sites I've found on the Internet. The collective knowledge and wisdom here is truly enriching and ennobling, and even most of the harsher posters occasionally had food for thought.
I still hope to learn, and hope that censorship hasn't started silencing us.
(Sorry for typos, hard to be proficient with a lapcat striking keys for the fun of it...)
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About the post, I've started wondering if we aren't seeing the beginnings of changes brought about by overconsumption and unsustainable economic practices.
Fixing infrastructure is all well and good, but infrastructure is only propping up a high-consumption lifestyle. I consider myself an environmentalist, but understand that change will have to be in the heart, which is a slow, drawn out process. We're all on one ship, now, and it's a big one, and big ships take a lot of time and room to change direction...
Along those lines, some food for thought, www.storyofstuff.com
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Re: Ed, Marbles, Via
That whole thing was just so bad. I'm truly glad the z dude got banned. He got into a fracas with Jack, and started hitting the 'complain' button on all Jack's posts.
When you hit the button, the text in the posts disappears until some poor human (I assume) gets around to reading it, and deciding if it breaks policy or not (i.e., days later.) Z_neds figured that out, and used it to shut, first Jack, then other people, out. Jack (and maybe 80% too), recognised this and retaliated. I guess the mods just decided to chuck the lot of them, good or bad, right or wrong (which I can understand, on an operational level).
Still, it points to a real weakness in the system that a 'disruptive personality' (I am trying to remain polite, here) is able to exploit. Speaking for myself, if I see that sort of thing starting up again, I'm just going to shut the lid of the laptop and go shovel snow till the crazy person gets bored and moves on.
If anyone knows of a formal complaint procedure worthy of pursuit, I'd certainly take that route as well.
Now, I know Jack can take care of himself. 80% might want to look into a Hotmail account, or the like. Maybe that's all it takes.
I don't know if there's a front door solution to his plight. I hope he didn't just get disgusted and say to hell with it all. It's a great service the BBC is providing here, and a great group of people posting. This blog I have unfailingly found informative, funny, thoughtful; what a terrible shame that one kook can mess things up so much.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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15, chronophobe.
I am sorry they are gone, but it did cause a lot of frustration. I finally logged out. I was particularly getting to enjoy eightypercent. If that happens again I will give up for the night, or however long it takes for the feuding to stop.
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15, chronophobe.
"If anyone knows of a formal complaint procedure worthy of pursuit, I'd certainly take that route as well."
A couple of months ago I did complain about a comment. If I remember correctly, a screen came up asking to explain why I was complaining (it was a truly vile comment). So I did, but the modereators did not remove it, which surprised me.
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17, chronophobe.
Or maybe the moderators e-mailed me, asking. I don't remember.
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I think that there is a case against Obama new deal and his programme for "building..." the USA poor buildings and roads...
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The problem: is who is going to pay for this whole idea...?
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20, dennis.
"The problem: is who is going to pay for this whole idea...?"
Who is going to pay welfare to 2.5 million out-of-work men and women? And, remember, you get no returns on welfare. It is just dropping money into a big hole. When you pay an infrastructure workforce you have something to show for the money you have spent. As to who pays - we poor slobs, as usual.
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In my opinion, Public Works on infrastructure (roads, highways, bridges, public transportation) and public buildings (schools, libraries, governmental buildings) are are among the few things the gov. should be in the business of doing besides funding the armed forces. I could get behind this plan, but no cradle-to-the-grave welfare or gov. seizure of provate property for private developers please.
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What has brought us to the mess we're in? To the disintegration of structures such as we are witnessing on a global scale? In my youth, I spent some time working in a medical school animal facility. Useful experience! Whenever animals caged in any space became over-crowded--regardless of food, water availability or sanitary conditions, it was no time until normal behavior broke down and extremes became the norm, from murder to genocide, from rape to cannibalism, individual and group insanity soon became the norm. Today, it is possible to observe the development of these changes in chicken 'factory farms' and in the crowded ghettos of towns and cities the world over.
The thinking that was the norm and guided society 500 or even 100 years ago, when the globe had less than half of today's population, cannot, does not, and is not working today. The increase in the numbers of humans has been followed by larger increases in human needs, wants and demands, in the volume of 'things' produced and consumed, in current extremes of wealth and poverty, of greed and corruption, of violence, chaos, disintegration and breakdown. And in the growth of technology in all fronts.
In America's "factory-farms," a dozen humans oversee a half-million egg-laying chickens, where the deaths of a few thousands are of no significance and veterinarian care is not required. Similar conditions apply to pigs and cattle kept in barns of horror--the absolute worst being the calves raised for so-called 'milk-fed veal.' Modern thinking, modern demands and modern technology make possible the imprisonment and torture of animals in barns of horror and of humans in secret or well-known horror prisons all over the planet.
But a 150 or fewer years ago, these conditions did not exist. They were not needed and had not developed. Their development has been a response to larger numbers of people, to greater fears and to greater profits to be made. Also, it is unlikely that the paradigm and world view prevailing back then would have allowed such conditions. But today, where larger numbers lower the value of human and animal life, where citizens have no clue how their meat is raised or delivered to them, and where helplessness runs rampant and accountability is on the wane, such conditions do exist and do flourish!
Unless and until our thinking changes and a new paradigm and world view arise to guide and restrain Thought, demands, expectations and conduct, no true change will come or take root and we will continue to travel the road to perdition we are now on.
True Change arises from changed Thought and takes root on soil made fertile by such Thought. If our thinking and our path do not change, and given current conditions, what are the conditions likely to develop and prevail over mankind's existence, 100 years hence, as human population continues to increase? I find the thought too frightening to dwell on!
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My generation and my children will pay for this generation's failure to maintain our nations's infrastructure anyways, so what difference does it make at this point; the ball has already been dropped and we are playing catch up because we've literally become too big for our aging infrasturcture. Southerners like myself know how that goes, we've been trying to play catch up in our own way since the Civil War. Besides, the cost of acting now will pail to the cost of having to act later-think N.O. levees and Katrina.
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The Human population will not increase indefinately, masabimulawa. Populations will peak and then drop down somewhat before stablizing. Post-Industrial societies are already experiencing this with births and mortality rates decreasing, especially in Europe; the same would be said of the U.S. if we did not enjoy the constant flow of immigration. Much of the world just happens to be in the Industrial stage of development right now where mortality is down and births are up.
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I am not going to read some ridiculous article by the Christian Science Monitor. I read the last sentence that asked us if we are basically going to always run to the government for money. The government WORKS FOR US, we PAY them, IT'S OUR MONEY. Not the other way around. We elect them and they are to do as we wish. Was is wrong for our National Guard to finally go out and rescue people off of their roof tops during huricane Katrina? With this logic, those people would still be on their roofs. What a bunch of crap. Now I have to go read the entire article...
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Ed ,
Remarks by Marbles, and Via spot on. Believe some gave up weeks back, anticipating the storm that eventually arrived. Think this sums up the reasoning behind the blow up, where defending ones' corner takes preference over balance. First voiced hundreds of years ago by an actor playing a commodities seller, living in Europe. The message is as clear today as it was then. Colour, creed, race, religion remain a worldwide problem. Could be said by all - to all......
" fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as any other is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that." W.S.
Changed just one word to fit.
Chrono too has his finger right on the pulse with cause + possibilities, so hoping to greet hammerdragster and fivecylinders again after an MOT test to check verbal silencers are in order.
"A man that studieth revenge keeps his own wounds green".
Francis Bacon
Disappointed by the whole affair.
wma
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Via-Media writes: '...I've started wondering if we aren't seeing the beginnings of changes brought about by overconsumption and unsustainable economic practices...' Yes! And by the over-riding presence of far too many humans. Yes! And by the over-riding influence of a bankrupt paradigm and bankrupt mind-sets born of yesterday's realities but alien and stillborn in today's.
More and more, the pragmatic relevancy of Einstein's words becomes apparent: "The significant problems we face today can not be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
It matters not what 'solutions,' plans, technologies or changes we implement. Born of yesterday's paradigm, regardless of how radical or relevant they appear, all changes are bankrupt IF they do not address today's bottomline: EXCESS! EXCESS in all fronts. EXCESS of humans and of things, of production and consumption, of wealth and poverty, of decadence, greed and self-indulgence, and the over-riding urgent necessity to curb them all.
From time immemorial, mankind has travelled this road. The ancient Mesopotamians and the Athenians, the Romans of both Republic and Empire, the Tokungawas and the Mayas, the Anasazi and the Easter Islanders, to name only the few I remember--all of them over- populated, over-used and abused their environment's capacity to sustain them, and witnessed the decline of their culture, the collapse, and the final irretrievable demise of their civilizations.
The difference between each of them and us: theirs were societies with greater or lesser reach, but all were local in extent and limited in their influence to their home territories and conquered lands. WE, on the other hand and for the first time ever in history, ARE TRULY GLOBAL! And globally interconnected.
In various and relevant ways, human civilization TODAY is the equivalent of the Banyan Tree of Asia. One tree with many roots interconnected by its many branches, the Banyan forms a huge canopy yet it is one single if enormous tree. Humanity also has many cultures with many roots and many branches, yet today it is ONE SINGLE GLOBAL FAMILY.
Within this single past decade, the signs and signals of civilization's decline have become visible on the global stage. Today there are few not aware of them. DECLINE is usually gradual--its signs can be seen coming; its events can be observed happening. COLLAPSE happens fast and hits unexpectedly. The time for a radical change in paradigm, one that addresses the future, is now and is fast running out. At the end, humankind will no doubt survive--however it can. Civilization as we know it now, cannot. Civiliations rarely survive their own collapse or the decline of their cultures. The Earth, however, will heal and its creatures thrive again..., in time. For us, the aftermath is anyone's guess, but I'd wager it'll not be an easy ride! But then, perhaps our remnants will learn and our descendants grow wiser..., in time. Let us pray!
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the Question is: where is the money going to come from? are international creditors willing to buy even more US government bonds?
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"Has America gotten so soft and so fearful that its citizens run to the government during a recession?" Yes. And why exactly is that a problem?
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#29 Parrisia
the Question is: where is the money going to come from? are international creditors willing to buy even more US government bonds?
The money is going to come from the same people who financed Bush's wars: the next generation of American tax payers! Perhaps the majority of Americans will think twice now before their country invades another, but I doubt it!
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"The money is going to come from the same people who financed Bush's wars: the next generation of American tax payers! Perhaps the majority of Americans will think twice now before their country invades another, but I doubt it!"
As a percentage of GDP Bush's wars are a fraction of what Vietnam cost. Perhaps because of Bush's reaction to the Taliban people will think twice before crashing planes into buildings again.... or do you think America deserved it and should have done nothing?
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#32 Peter
Stop talking trash. How was the Vietnam War funded? By debt? How was it paid?
Bush wanted these wars but didn't want to raise taxes to pay for it. I remember his silly little address to the nation about his pending invasion of Iraq to the American tax payer. The irony was that those who would pay for his war weren't watching, they were tucked up in their beds fast asleep!
After Bush promised to spend the next generation's money, existing voters gave him another four years to spend more of it! Americans deserve their public sector debt. It's the patriots who tried to resist Herr Bush that I feel sorry for.
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With all spending policies its hit and miss. It could have the effect it was intended or it could just be a waste of tax payers money. I'm banking on the former because it's spending on something worthwhile rather than benefits etc. Hope it works out!
And it's a shame that 80% and the others (with the excpetion of Zened), they seemed to me at least as intelligent, well-spoken people who had valuable comments to make. Hope they can get unbanned in the future!
Peace
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#8 Ed
Can you tell your friend to re-join by using a different e-mail address and a different moniker? I know in the UK you can create a new e-mail address from your existing ISP (I don't think hotmail or any other web based ones will work though).
I don't think that the likes of JohnAAA or vivaelcid would condone zenads actions!
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#33. Bush's wars cost about 1% of US GDP a year. Vietnam cost 5%. More bombs were dropped on Vietnam than on Germany in the whole of WW2. The US lost literally hundreds of multi-million pound fighter jets and B52's. A few unarmoured HUMVEES being blown up are a damn site cheaper than losing even a single B52.
Iraq and Afghanistan are being run on a shoestring budget which in no small part explains why they're going badly. There would have been no need for a 'surge' if the correct number of fighting soldiers had been deployed in the first place.
To put things in context Britain is spending £1bn a year in Iraq. We spend £180bn a year on benefits. Iraq is not the reason our economy is in poor shape, neither is it the reason America's is in bad shape.
You might label anything that doesn't hold Bush 100% responsible for the state of the entire worlds economy 'trash' but it doesn't make it true, especially as many of the toxic loans were initially made under Clinton. How do you think he fueled his economic boom? Same way Blair did.
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Ref 36
"You might label anything that doesn't hold Bush 100% responsible for the state of the entire worlds economy 'trash' but it doesn't make it true"
You are correct, the economic problems we are having are the result of decades of fiscal irresponsibility at all levels (federal, state, corporate and personal). Our society refuses to pay for the services we get, and rejects any politician who dares suggest the need to either pay for what we get or do without. We elect leaders who pass the litmus test of promising the sky and using plastic to pay for it.
It is unrealistic, however, to blame the only administration that managed to reduce the size of government in recent decades and that produced the only budget surpluses while creating over 20 million new jobs responsible for our woes, while insinuating that the borrow and spend policies of the past 8 years have nothing to do with the problems we are having. Bush's policies, including the invasion of Iraq, did not cause our problems, they simply aggravated and accelerated our demise.
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#37. Did Clinton adminstration REALLY manage to to do that or did the economy boom regardless of who was in the White house? Its funny that Britains economy has directly mirrored the US's. Do you think Brown was really responsible for 16 years of continual British growth?
In any case if you read my words carefully I'm not blaming Clinton- I'm saying that many toxic loans were made while he was in office. Thats a simple statement of fact. It is also a simple statement of fact that these loans temporarily boosted bank profits which in turn boosted the economy.
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The way to fix alot of this is to end the billions going overseas in a war that in Iraq is won and the one in Afganistan is not winnable without full out conflict, destruction and then the expensive rebuild.
Even with that the terrain and diversity of its people make it a quagmire for the US as it did for Russia,.. with no positive in sight.
Clinton economy didn't struggle under false premise of "World Domination" or even as a police state for the world. Our economy has folded due to the extreme cost of war being placed squarely on the American worker.
Infrastructure, federal buildings, schools and the like are not long term fixes. Additional rail services I can see, but fuel is in flux now, but "just roads" must be reconsidered, other than that the "breauocracey" required will hire more than the 'work' force.
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Ref 38
"Did Clinton adminstration REALLY manage to to do that or did the economy boom regardless of who was in the White house?"
Economic cycles are an integral part of our capitalist system, but to negate the significant reductions in the size of government and the fiscal sanity that was put in place in the Clinton years is as disingeneous as suggesting that the fiscal and economic policies put in place by President Bush II had nothing to do with the problems we are having. The budget surpluses in the Clinton years were not an accident, and the budget deficits in the Bush II years did not happen spontaneously.
Deficit spending was the centerpiece of the economic policies put in place during the Reagan and Bush II years and were deliberate attempts to satisfy a society devoid of fiscal responsibility with handouts we could not afford. Our $10T national debt, $200B annual interest on the debt, unsustainable corporate and personal debt, and $53T in unfunded liabilities should not surprise anyone. We have nobody to blame but ourselves.
Consider the remedies that are being proposed to get us out of the hole we are in: make more credit (debt) readily available to people and corporations so that they can meet their obligations and spend enough to stimulate the economy and restore the chimera that we naively regard as prosperity, using borrowed money or worthless paper to pay for it. Saving to pay for what we get has become a Jurassic concept rejected by all.
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In reply to post #11 dsanthony:
"Despite the rebuke of President Bush's administration, Americans are a center-right population."
I happen to be born and raised here, and I disagree with your evaluation.
At heart, we are pragmatists. For the past 30 years, we trusted the Republicans for the most part, and gave them a good deal of influence. If I recall correctly, the only possible exception was Clinton, whose hands were mostly tied by Congressional GOP.
We are quite aware that it was GOP policies and fearmongering that got us into this mess. Yes, the Dems had a part to play, but not as much as the GOP at least in public opinion.
"Obama's welcome will disappear quickly if he begins pushing the anti-free market agenda being celebrated on the internet."
Actually, most of us seem to feel that the market needs MORE regulation, not less. It's the banks and stock market that are the major problem now, along with excessive government and military spending. Guess who jacked up the expenditures on both? It wasn't the Democrats for the most part! In fact, most of the time they seem quite good for the economy, but they tend not to be into foreign intervention to the scale of the GOP.
"Remember, America elected Eisenhower over Stevenson, Nixon over Humphrey and Reagan over Carter. They will return to their senses soon enough."
(chuckling) Nixon was particularly hated (see the incredible arrogance that characterized the man), and it was Reagan's horrid Cold War economic policies (Spend the USSR into the ground! That's the solution!) that were the seed for this whole mess. The GOP leadership STILL idolizes Reagan, what a bunch of tools!
Actually, I think we have already returned to our senses by voting centrist instead of extreme right once again. The rest of the nation seems to overwhelmingly agree with me. You don't think it was just the black and minority votes that got Obama into the presidency, do you?
We voted in an unknown "half-breed" from Chicago who displayed intelligence and self control. Race isn't an issue with most of us. It's the man's personal qualities and views that got him elected. So far, Barack Obama has managed to impress even the GOP, ticked off their more right wingers and the Democratic left wingers, and generally been very wise. If this continues, we will not only reelect the Democrats AGAIN in the next cycle, we will probably elect another Democrat to the head office in 8 years.
Feel free to copy my notes and reread them in 8 years. I'm fairly certain I'm right, and that's a rare thing indeed!
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28. At 08:25am on 09 Dec 2008, masabimulawa wrote:
And aren't we proud of it!!!Let us pray, indeed, but I suspect we're looking at a likelihood below 50% of even one breeding pair of Humans surviving. Some will have seen this link before. The link it leads on to is well worth following. Or just go here, for a real uplift ;-)I'm sure Jack and 80% will find a way to re-connect, but can they be bothered? I'm sure they will be warmed by the comments above. I've sent both a copy of the post at #8, and I'm sure most of us will recognise the source. Both are, to my certain knowledge, real human beings and individuals of considerable personal integrity and achievement. Let's all hope such disturbances remain uncommon.
Peace and common sense
ed
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"Remember, America elected Eisenhower over Stevenson, Nixon over Humphrey and Reagan over Carter. They will return to their senses soon enough."
Its a funny phenomena of US politics and the world in general that the failings of Republican politicians get exagerated while the failings of Dems are airbrushed from history.
I remember JFK as the man who won the white house after his bootlegger father had the Mafia swing Illinois, the man who started Vietnam, the man who invaded cuba and damn near started WW3, yet everyone else seems to think he presided over a new camelot. Nixon covered up a burgalry, but also started a real raport with China and ENDED vietnam yet he's apparently the most evil man in US political history.
Carter screwed up Iran and launched a disastrous rescue mission that shamed America yet gets the Nobel Peace prize. Reagan forced the USSR to open its borders leading to democracy in eastern europe and is a war maker.
Clinton fired cruise missiles at Sudan, Iraq, Afghanistan, bombed Serbia flat and presided over the Somalia screw-up but he's also 'a peacemaker' because he showed up for a photo session in Ulster.
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Regarding the money spent on Iraq: where do you all think it goes?
It goes to Halliburton, to Boeing, to Hughes, to McDonnel-Douglas. It goes to Colt for more M16's and millions of rounds of 5.56mm ammo. It goes to the guys who build HUMVEES and make desert pattern cammo. It goes to the women who pack MRE's and the families of soldiers getting extra combat pay. Almost every dollar congress spends on war comes back to the US economy eventually.
The only world class manufacturing industry the US (and UK) still have is weapons production. Its sad, but its true. War keeps the wests manufacturing industry going.
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#43 Peter
Your view of American history airbrushes the atrocities that all Presidents from Eisenhower onwards have committed in Central and South America - except, strangely enough, Bush II (as far as I know). Mind you he did try to topple Chavez in a coup, but couldn't even do that!
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#44 Peter
The only world class manufacturing industry the US (and UK) still have is weapons production. Its sad, but its true. War keeps the wests manufacturing industry going.
Well it looks like USA Inc and UK plc need a new business plan because the war industry isn't going to save them.
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Navarro's piece is exactly on point, as is Fred Thompson's more humorous version found at fredpac.org.
The Obama Plan will slow recovery and distort the economy because The Central Planners will choose the next set of winners and losers for the future, by deciding where to spend all that borrowed money. Yesterday, for example, shares of CEMEX(the cement manufacturer) and Caterpillar(builder of earth-moving equipment) surged on the news of the Obama Plan. Investors expect cash to rain from the heavens on these firms after 20 January 2009, and thus placed their bets on those shares. Any real consideration of the balance sheets, business plans, competence of management, etc. before purchase? I doubt it!
However, Mr. Webb, I truly understand your frustration with US life, where no one thought to build a train line from the airport to the nation's capital.
Problem is, we have elected outrageously STUPID people to office for decades--and I won't bother to list my favorites. They spend money like the drunken brother-in-law, sucking up the family's wealth with the next get-rich-quick scheme.
And, yes, Washington (and many other cities) NEED something like Heathrow Express, pronto. All we have to do to get it is:
1. Lift the cap gains tax, so that those who invest stand to really gain.
2. Effectively sit the enviro-wackos down, and shut them up. We need the train more than the wooly-worms need that particular maple tree on that certain creek-bank.
3. Ditto the rail unions--letting them know they will NEVER hold the country hostage again. You strike(or stage a 'flu-out'), your sorry behind is fired, period.
(Haven't spent a penny yet, have we?)
4. Float a specific bond issue to build it, and make them convertible to preferred shares once it's up and running. That will help keep things on budget and schedule.
(Still haven't spent much money, have we?)
Then--build the silly thing, and get on with it!
Hire the designers and engineers who built Heathrow Express--they already know how to do this sort of thing.
Charge the riders what it actually costs to pay off the bondholders and/or pay dividends to shareholders after operating expenses.
If it doesn't make money, the owners can sell it to someone who can make it profitable. Don't come to Congress with the begging bowl, boys!
Even if we just did #1 on the list, the recovery would be rapid and sustained. The US tax system forces every enterprise to drag a two-ton sledge behind it as it seeks to move forward.
Problem is, Washington is run by blithering idiots. The trains don't exist, much less run, because Congress , and the Executive branch, and the Judiciary are too busy making certain they can't exist and run.
If BHO can cut through it all, and make something happen, we may get in the habit of functioning again. If that happens, there's a wee bit of hope for his plans. Fingers crossed, and good wishes go with him.
Thanks again, Mr. Webb. Great job, as always.
And, it's refreshing to see a return to civility here in your back yard. Who WERE all those people calling you and one another nasty names?
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#42 Ed
Yes. This blog is much interesting with them in it. I hope they re-connect, but won't blame them if they don't.
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For Ed,
I'm sorry to hear of the problems w/ the moderators, but I was thinking you might have been sick or hurt, so I'm glad that's not the case.
We should all start blogging on Fox News, would'nt that be fun! Ha!
-Croony
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#45. Not airbrushed, rather didn't have the space to mention. Summarising 8 years in two sentences is going to leave out a lot. As you say ALL US presidents have been involved in meddling in South & Central america, although from what I've seen the atrocities have been commited by locals not americans. They might be backed, trained and armed by the US but its nicaraguans slicing up other nicaraguans etc.
Chavez keeps saying Bush tried to topple him in a coup but I've seen zero evidence for it. However if we're on about presidents not being able to manage things how many goes did JFK have at Castro? It must have been into 3 figures.
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New just in these past few minutes:
The Governor of illinois has just been arrested for attempting to SELL the appointment of Sen. Obama's open Senate seat--open-faced solicitation of bribery, captured in video, we are told.
When the government becomes the arbiter of everything, the opportunities and temptations can be overwhelming.
Another sobering consideration, as we head toward the future Mr. Obama has planned for us.
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#47. The Heathrow Express cost £12 last time I rode it. Thats about £1.20 a mile or more expensive per mile than concorde! Washington needs a mass transit link to the airport thats priced at a reasonable rate.... that means subisidy and THATS a whole different debate
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Peter,
WHY?What we do need is a new standard
BTW, Kennedy didn't "start" our involvement in Vietnam - that happened under Eisenhower, following Dien Ben Phu.
Peace and a slower, more local standard
ed
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The biggest error in all this "infrastructure" business is the assumption that it is a good and necessary thing to build an "Economy" based upon moving things and people as far and as fast as possible.
Think about it. It's an Eden thing.
Peace and locality
ed
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rod blagojevich was governor when obama won his illinois senate seat in 2005. hmmmmmmm..
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I was hoping for impeachment of my wonderful illinois governor, but this will do!
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3. At 10:12pm on 08 Dec 2008, dceilar wrote:
That article you linked to Justin sounds like some Reaganite/Thatcherite tosh that's barely worth reading.
that why I gave up reading it.;)
If the argument is not based on environmental considerations then stuff it. that's what I say.
52 lol
I bet a flight on concord would cost more than that now:)
Thank God that loud waste of Gas is gone.
Now the people below the flight path will not have to to get remotes just to turn op the volume as it went overhead, so people could go shopping in new york.
Sorry Sam I am sure you miss it.;)
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49. At 3:15pm on 09 Dec 2008, middlecroony wrote:
For Ed,
I'm sorry to hear of the problems w/ the moderators, but I was thinking you might have been sick or hurt, so I'm glad that's not the case.
We should all start blogging on Fox News, would'nt that be fun! Ha!
-Croony
Nice Idea.
toppings extra for you
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51. At 3:20pm on 09 Dec 2008, OldSouth wrote:
New just in these past few minutes:
The Governor of illinois has just been arrested for attempting to SELL the appointment of Sen. Obama's open Senate seat--open-faced solicitation of bribery, captured in video, we are told.
Because it's now mentioned, I'll chime in.
This story may shock those who are not familiar with Illinois politics, but sadly it is just a day in the life of what happens over and over again in that state (former governor before this one still serving HIS prison sentence, I've lost count of congressman sent to prison over the decades).
I was born, raised and voted most of my life in Illinois, now live right next door near St. Louis. And unless you have experienced this, you cannot---CANNOT---imagine or come to grips with the brazen, shameless corruption that operates in the state of Illinois.
This has NOTHING to do with the president-elect (other than a vacant senate seat). This has everything to do with a state strangled by a political machine called Chicago that sucks the life out of everything else in the state (seriousy, look up East St. Louis, basically third-world living conditions that is too far away from Chicago to be a campaign concern. It looks like a war zone and has been that way for decades.)
This isn't about Democrat or Republican. My family and in-laws are split on either sides, and voting comes down to who is the LEAST likely to be sucked in by the Chicago monster.
During the election, many many people chimed in with disdain for those attempting to portray the Chicago political machine for what it is. Believe me, it's not Republican conspiracy. "Downstaters" as those who live south of Chicago are called, know they have no voice in elections, but God love 'em they vote faithfully anyway. My Democrat in-laws are cheering just as wildly as my family in the hopes that this guy goes away.
Full disclosure: I didn't vote for Obama---BUT:
I hope this story doesn't bring out the "Obama must be linked somehow" crowd, because in doing that you would be failing to understand that Illinois politics is its own animal. And like I said, if you've never lived there it is beyond imagination how deeply rooted the corruption is and openly operates. (Our local Missouri tv has been reporting on current Illinois governor corruption rumors for the past 2 years).
Believe it or not, Obama may be a product of the Chicago machine but he is actually a small spoke in the wheel that turns the state. He's probably thankful today that his family's moving vans are headed east.
I know, I know, many will say innocent until proven guilty. All I can say is that unless you've lived there..........
And no, I don't have any axe to grind against the everyday people of Chicago---without the Cubs and Bears what meaning does life have :-)
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#47 OldSouth:
"1. Lift the cap gains tax, so that those who invest stand to really gain."
ROFL! That's not going to happen anytime soon! Let me guess, you have a lot of money yourself, eh? Way back in the 1930's, income tax was established, but nobody really knew how it worked. It only taxed the very highest income "earners", and no one else. Interesting to note that this was how they brought Capone down. These days, the middle and lower classes are taxed increasingly, while the rich AT MOST only 50% of them pay income taxes at all through various dodges (this comes from a IRS agent I know).
We give far more money to the richest than we ever did aid to the poor, yet time and again there are "welfare scandals" that crop up. We need to repeal the constant monetary aid and tax breaks we give to corporations and the rich. Then we have to fix the various loopholes they like to take advantage of with things like offshore accounts (remember this, UK?).
"2. Effectively sit the enviro-wackos down, and shut them up. We need the train more than the wooly-worms need that particular maple tree on that certain creek-bank."
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHA! That was funny! As it turns out, renewable and environmentally friendly power etc is actually VERY economical. If the USA did invest in solar power, we could cover maybe 25% of Arizona in panels and power the whole country! I wonder if the UK did the same in investing in green technology, they might reap the benefits as well?
#44 Peter Sym:
Obama is speaking about investing in infrastructure instead of the military. Unlike military spending, ALL of the money (not just a part of it) stays in the USA, and even has interesting benefits in "paving" the way for the future. (Please forgive the pun, I couldn't resist!)
Of course the military money spent eventually come back into the USA, except for Halliburton etc. However, this doesn't fuel future growth, and just plain isn't sustainable. Across history, nations have found wars to be extremely expensive ways of getting their goals achieved, not just in money but also in manpower. Show me where construction of infrastructure, as inglorious and dull as it is, has the same expense why don't you?
Personally, I'd rather my tax dollar was spent on fiber optic cables and bridges than DPU bullets which are partially radioactive and bombs which need to be guarded and maintained, but then that's just me. I see more benefit in a repaired sidewalk than a fancy new jet fighter, just color me crazy that way!
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#37. Did Clinton adminstration REALLY manage to to do that or did the economy boom regardless of who was in the White house?
I think that the world was changing.
IT was the money maker not the Clintons unless you count the normalising of relations with China under the Clintons.
The fear of Y2K was there so many reinvested.
Technology was sold to anywhere but not just the high tech.
As Ohio can tell us.
Plants were dismantled so they could be moved to cheaper wage centres the service industry jobs that were to stay here only moved more recently.
Short term gains at the expense of sustainability.
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ed, chrono marbles , via, waterman,dc
those events inspired my arrival to the blog
For I could stay silent no longer.
80% where r U.
RIP Jacksforge 80%
Good advice there dudes.
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33
well said
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I think IF jacksforge were around he would say thankyou for being referred to as friend,ED.
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60 we could cover maybe 25% of Arizona in panels and power the whole country!
Or just use solar for roofing everywhere so lizards can bask too.
lol
like your post just agreeing that it is really pretty easy to get this going.
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Ed (#54), your post reminds me of a book popular in the 1960's: Five Acres and Independence by Maurice G. Kains.
I don't think the "Eden thing" holds up. If you live in Eden, and have the climate, the means, and the inclination to build locally self-sufficient communities, fine. There are groups like the Amish in the US who live like this.
You may remember something about American geography if you haven't been back here in awhile, however. Much of the land would be uninhabitable above a subsistence level if the economy were entirely local. That's not my idea of Paradise.
I don't think the objective is "moving things and people as far and fast as possible." This is a "straw man" argument not requiring refutation.
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Just to put this out there:
Watching the news conference with US attorney speaking on Illinois governor. It looks like trying to sell the US senate seat is the least of the governor's concerns.
This guy was plenty busy!
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42 the left overs would probably like to have a "smithy or otherwise trained in the metallurgical arts" as a convict once said as he got on a train.
If there is a world colapse the funny thing is the third world skills will be the most important.
Not sure how trained lawyers will be of any use.
You've got a smith ,so you're OK.
;)
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Fonz,
It ain't easy to keep a good man down!
;-)
ed
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Re: 47 Old South
Big capital projects have always had a public component, e.g.,
More on that here.
My point would be, there is nothing new in public/private partnerships for infrastructure development. The devil, or the angels, if things are done well, are in the details.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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Peter_Sym (#43), I don't disagree with you on holding Democrats as well as Republicans accountable for their policies and actions, but there is plenty of blame to go around where Vietnam is concerned. We should have left Vietnam to the Vietnamese when the French left in 1954, but we took over their problem. That was the Eisenhower administration. Then it became Kennedy's war, then Johnson's, then Nixon's. Nixon did get out, but only after a few years. It could have been ended at any time on the terms we got. We got nothing (except peace), which is what we deserved.
As far as I am concerned, there is really not much difference between Democrats and Republicans on the subject of military intervention wherever it suits us.
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#7 Jeebers76,
Actually, I find the CS Monitor to be more fair than most, and I'm a moderate who doesn't see herself as being particularly right or left leaning. However, this article was in the Opinion section, which is where you are bound to find bias in one direction or another. You might try an article in one of their other sections and see what you think of that.
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66 You may remember something about American geography if you haven't been back here in awhile, however. Much of the land would be uninhabitable above a subsistence level if the economy were entirely local. That's not my idea of Paradise.
Reno Vegas Pheonix
Should be small towns not cities.
They certainly should not have water intensive Golf courses and waterslide parks.
Water = food.
these cities do not provide they consume.
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69
what did you see a post from 80%?;)
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#11 dsanthony,
Americans are a center-right population? Hmmm, not sure about this one. Do you have references you could share?
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Gary,
Is it necessary that every place be occupied? This, of course, begs the question as to why there are so many of us...and an extra 219,000 today...If you don't believe it, just observe even your own reaction. If it isn't the objective, then why is it so obviously the main result?My point was the obvious assumption that a "reasonably priced" (even subsidised?) means of getting to the airport is "needed". As I noted, it is the central error inherent in all our "economic" concerns - that it is not possible to challenge anything which accelerates or facilitates moving goods or people around. Our Global Economy is measured in terms of Tonnes and Miles, and growth thereof. Where's the value in that?
I commend Ivan Illich's cogent observations on the dis-utility of overindulgence in mobility to anyone who isn't afraid of questioning some of our underlying assumptions.
Peace and slowing down
ed
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#32 Peter_Sym,
Sorry, no, I personally do not think our invasion of Afghanistan or Iraq will make terrorists think twice. I don't think the extremist's mind works that way. The more we punish them, the more determined they become, from what I've seen. If anything, the mistakes we have made and the inevitable civilian casualties have probably made it easier to sway suffering people with extremist arguments.
Should we have done nothing? I don't think anyone would suggest we should have done nothing. Many of us just seem to differ on what we should have done and how.
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75 mdalerwill
It is a hard one to prove what statistics show a right or centre right.etc.
It could be said that there was no way on Gods less green earth that they are lefties .
Founded by lefties yes , but long departed as a nation.
In he recent election many europeans noted all the debates tended to be right of centre.
It is strange that any revolutionary country should end up on the right of monarchies.
But america has made it happen.
69 ED or were you referring to your rise from the flu? ;)
now I am definitely off and my day will include no hitting anything and certainly I will be nowhere near a fire.
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Ed (#76), I'm all for slowing down. And it certainly IS possible to challenge something which facilitates moving people around. To give just one local example:
In San Francisco, California, a viaduct known as the Embarcadero Freeway was damaged in the 1989 earthquake. San Franciscans argued for awhile over what to do. The Chinese merchants wanted it replaced because it delivered drivers right to the heart of Chinatown. Fortunately, sanity prevailed, and they just tore it down and renovated the surface street (Embarcadero).
As a side note, the Embarcadero Freeway ended at Chinatown because of opposition in the 1960s to the original plan, which would have extended it all along the east and north waterfront of SF to the Golden Gate Bridge.
Now it's something of a chore to get to Chinatown and North Beach, as well as to the GGB, but it's a lot more pleasant. Sometimes the right thing is done.
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Forget about trains to airports, etc. Sounds like a world or nation built just for businesspeople who have to travel fast and cheap. Americans are spoiled because their poor are invisible - they do not have any access to education or to travel for thqt matter ( remember - before the hurricanes, they could not get out of the way - no transportation) The society is almost feudal - all for the top and nothing"tricling-down". I recall watching several busloads of low-income and minority students visiting supposedly"elite" colleges in the US - these students spent almost all of their time on campus at the giftshop! They were carrying chairs, hoodies, posters, etc into the buses. They have the "spend-spend" philosophy down pat - but who gets their money?????And what do they leave with?? If followed up- I guarantee that no more than one student on 3-4 buses got to spend a term on any of these campuses. The store is open but the storeroom is forever closed.
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72 I would agree that the CS monitor is strangely a better read than many.
I want to hate it , but just can't quite bring myself to.
but still I think of it like the 700 club.
which though way offsided on some issues is strangely not all for GM and pesticides .
which as a lefty I would have thought it would be.
Obviously it has no influence or people just get picky on what part of the show they listen to.
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#76
Most of the comments refer to statistics of techniques.
Almost none refer to values.
The greatest challenge in designing a system is to have the users prioritize their values.
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The last option of printing money is the most likely, and the author doesn't realize something: inflation is the least of our worries now. Far more dangerous is the opposite: a deflationary spiral akin to the "lost decade" of Japan. This lost decade was so dangerous some serious economists actually suggested deliberately causing hyperinflation to solve it. A measly 700 billion dollar package with economic benefits down the road sounds tame by comparison. What Obama has outlined seems good to me with my knowledge of economics.
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#80, the poor in the US are "invisible"? It seems you haven't been here for awhile.
As for "trains to airports," that would refer to Dulles airport west of Washington, a long drive away. So what's your solution to overconsumption of petroleum in the US? Just close Dulles airport and have people drive to Baltimore/Washington airport (a long drive for people west of Washington)? Close them both and eliminate international air travel to one of the most important capital cities in the world?
The world is what we make of it (within our powers), and we've made a mess of it all right. I guess we all should just cash in our chips. You go first.
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Re: 76 Ed
Thanks for that link to Illich. I am more familiar with his challenging critiques to our modern cult of "education" in De-Schooling Society".
I often don't agree with his arguments, but his is a very worthy read.
For those, like myself, who have no time, (ahem. . . ) I'd like to highlight the salient points (as I see them) of Illich's argument re: transportation and freedom:
So what is the link between fast transport and the lack of participatory democracy? Well,
Bang on. Now, that doesn't mean I'd rather not see a rail link to the airport, for example. It just makes me think about how our choices in transportation structure our relations with each other and the world. Long term, were are going to have to deal with this.
Now, I'd love to say more, but I have to jump into the car and drive, cross town through the falling snow (20 cm today!), to a meeting with cranky clients.
It will be dark when I return home. Sigh.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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Re: 68 happylaze
Not sure how trained lawyers will be of any use.
Ah, but where there is commerce, there are contracts, and where there are contracts there will be lawyers . . .
And besides, somebody's got to live on that big house on the hill and commission the lowly smith to built the big iron gates that protect it from the plebes.
Cheers,
Canadian Pinko
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I've been back in the hospital for a few days and missed whatever "zeneds" posted and the responses thereto - seems there's been a lot of excitement. A pity if Jacksforge and Eightypercent have been tossed out as well, but others on this board have reappeared with different screen names, especially pre-Election.
With regard to the CSM, it no longer prints a paper edition, which seems to be the way the news media is going; can it be long before the Tribune group cease to print anything? Ten years ago, not every paper ha a web site, in ten years time perhaps the only printed news will be in weekly magazines, like the news-reels of old.
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#81
As far as I can determine, the csmonitor.com is the closest thing to the BBC in the USA.
Their free daily newsletter is far better!
Along with Public Service Broadcasting, they do NOT depend on advertising revenues.
There is no refenence to physician-free healing that I have noted!
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Seems to me the CS Monitor article is conclusionary...is presupposes that there was some natural market course already in effect that should be allowed to proceed and would naturally correct itself. I hear this in the halls as well. I think this is a false premise - US economy was not on a natural course but had become a fabricated and manipulated market - particularly debt backed securities.
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Gary,
The latter, as a start, and then consider eliminating (or reducing by 98%) all international (and internal) air travel. Then get started on eliminating the bulk of surface travel...This addiction to hypermobility is, after all, a mere matter of centuries at most, and is purely consumptive. It produces nothing! On examination, it seems the daftest possible way to waste resources in a limited and overpopulated world, and remember, 80% of it is for the benefit of 20% of us. The other four fifths of the world's folk gain nothing from it. They only lose.
Of course, junkies will do almost anything before they'll consider moderating their "need". We need a new look at things.
Peace and less frenetic movement
ed
20/80. How long do we reckon we can keep 80% hungry while we keep 80% of the feast?
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#83 Meshsam
Though you are correct about the threat of deflation, the option of printing more money to combat it isn't viable. Moreover, increased public spending (and tax cuts if necessary) with low interest rates should be enough to inflate the economy that prevents deflation. When inflation begins to turn upwards again the Government can act to counter balance it; if it just prints more money then inflation could be out of it's control and then we're heading to a ruin of Weimar Republic proportions imo.
Has anyone wondered why the Japanese didn't just print more money to solve their deflation problem? Also, printing more money may piss off the Chinese which may also have serious repercussions for the American economy. This global problem requires global solutions; we all need to act together on this.
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#47, OldSouth, I have to agree that there is
a blind spot somewhere in the liberal consciousness
that automatically assumes that every great
project need automatically be publicly funded.
This goes back to the article that Justin posted.
Government can act as a stimulus and as a regulator,
but it need not act as sole investor. The original
railroad system in the US, which was the most
extensive in the world at its peak, was entirely
privately funded.
Of course, we had periodic busts of epoch
proportions, but that seems to be the American
way. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
The alternative, of 100% public funding, would
probably fail. As the old saying goes, "Crime
wouldn't pay if the government ran it."
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Obamas governor arrested.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7773717.stm
obama comment is that they had not spoken about the vacant senate seat. nice. how about all other things they did talk about?
This is probably the indication of how all these billions and billions obama is planning to spend is actually going to be spent.
jobs for boys and contracts for contributors.
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29, Parrisia.
"...where is the money going to come from?"
The government prints more money. Inflation follows. That moves us up into the next tax bracket. See how easy it is!
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My brother said he now has a 201K.
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55, ben.
"rod blagojevich was governor when obama won his illinois senate seat in 2005. hmmmmmmm.."
And our honest Harry Truman was a product of the infamous Pendergast machine. Harry overcame it.
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39, Doug.
"The way to fix alot of this is to end the billions going overseas in a war that in Iraq is won and the one in Afganistan is not winnable... make it a quagmire for the US as it did for Russia,.. with no positive in sight. ... Our economy has folded due to the extreme cost of war being placed squarely on the American worker."
I agree with you about these senseless wars, but other, and probably more important, factors were involved. After Clinton's deregulation, the stock market produced two bubbles. One collapsed in 2002, only to be followed by a larger one. Now that too has collapsed. Stocks have been vastly overvalued for so long, that we see it as normal.
We can blame the mortgage mess, and more recently the oil speculation. Those were just triggers. The market had to collapse. The war was also a trigger in that it affected the mood of the people. They were unhappy about the war and this made them nervous and cautious. The downturn began early in 2007, not in November. Main street knew it before the stock market did.
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Am I the only one that is a little perturbed by the examples of nepotism that dominate our politics? In Florida, ex-Gov Jeb Bush is considering running for Sen. Mel Martinez seat, and in New York Caroline Kennedy is considering running for the seat vacated by Hillary Clinton. Not only that, but the Nanny is also interested in Hillary's old job and, let's face it, we could always vote for body builders and wrestlers. This is starting to look like a soap opera or a 3-ring circus!
Well, considering the track record of "leaders" such as Sen. Stevens, Rep. Cunnigham, Gov. Blagojevich and others those mentioned above may very well be the best we can choose from. I can just see highways and bridges for sale to the highest bidder in exchange for home improvements, yachts, or better jobs for the spouses.
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Who is going to finance this idea of the Obama great deal?
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#90 Ed Iglehart
"The latter, as a start, and then consider eliminating (or reducing by 98%) all international (and internal) air travel. Then get started on eliminating the bulk of surface travel..."
This is about as rational as a certain parties views on the 'I' subject. Rather than wishing for the return of some mythical idyll of our rurual past we need to embrace technologies that will tackle climate change, raise the living standards of the third world to reverse population growth, and expand outwrds form this one little planet. Essentially the Green message is that we should all just lay down and die, thanks but no thanks.
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All the wind turbines built in the U.S., at about 10,000 units, produce about 4.5 gigawatts of energy, the equivalent of one large coal-fired power station. Environmental groups, with powerful political support, are now lobbying against coal-fired, natural gas and any new nuclear power plants. So where does Obama go from here?
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Events leading to the bust.
(1) The stock market became vastly overpriced following Clinton's deregulation. There was one bubble that burst. This is the second and larger one.
(2) The Iraqi War. First there was the cost. But more importantly public sentiment turned against the war as it dragged on and spirits became depressed. As people became more nervous and cautious they cut back on spending. This was felt in many retail sectors by the end of 2006. No confidence in Bush.
(3) Triggers. The mortgage mess (attribuable to deregulation, peripherals, slowing economy). Oil speculation.
The blame. Clinton's deregulation and Bush's Iraqi War.
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93 Unless you can give us a more concrete connection between Obama and this corrupt governor, then why pray tell did you post this cynicism? Do you have any evidence that this will occur?
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On the Op Ed page of The New York Times today is an article entitled "F.D.R. Knew How To Spend Carefully." It deals with the W.P.A. The program cost $76 billion in today's money and gave employment 3.8 million people. There was a stringent procedure for vetting each project. It is worth a read.
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#90 Ed
I agree with you on most things, but I think that the change will of necessity bea gradual, perhaps decades-long shift. The overconsumption business model did not take hold til the 1950s, so there has been a 6-decade long buildup til now. And most today in the West still would look askance at anyone who suggests shopping less, or that there are implications beyond our shores of binge shopping.
But at least the message is getting out, and becoming more accepted by each new generation.
It seems likely that we're approaching the zenith of a parabola (or, perhaps, several interrelated ones)- population, unsustainable economies, disparate/unjust income levels...
We are beginning to have the technological means to reverse the damage, and to build sustainability, while reducing populations and means of supporting them. It'll be a close call but I do believe we're up to it.
I don't think we have to go back to the days of yore, like the Amish, but we can simplify. Eden, with computers?
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#66 Gary A Hill
Even some of the Amish aren't so idyllic anymore.
1st, they're not a unified group, but range from ultra-conservative, to the "liberal". The liberal sects accept rides from the "English" (i.e. non-Amish) to the grocery stores, where they buy many of the same processed foods as the rest of us. Some "English" profit from this system by operating as for-pay taxis.
And some of the more liberal ones make a living making furniture for the English, and even have tractors w. the wheels removed, for use as generators to power saws and lathes and other modern carpentry tools.
And I think even the conservatives have no qualms about using the services of English optometrists and physicians. So sadly, they're no longer such a good example of self reliance, and are probably tied to our economies, like it or not.
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#100 As a Scot
I agree that we "can't go home again." But we can look forward, with new technology and reduced population, to a new environmentalism that incorporates much of the best of the old.
I see only a couple paths forward from here that don't eventually result in disaster. By growing green tech/infrastructure, we'll essentially be buying time, to reverse the trends of consumerism, and to allow greater global prosperity to have a natural impact on population trends.
And I think the tech and infrastructure are essential, if only because we do need that time, to wean ourselves off of our bad habits.
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32. At 10:28am on 09 Dec 2008, Peter_Sy
"As a percentage of GDP Bush's wars are a fraction of what Vietnam cost. Perhaps because of Bush's reaction to the Taliban people will think twice before crashing planes into buildings again.... or do you think America deserved it and should have done nothing?"
The majority of our money has gone to Iraq which George Bush himself finally admitted had nothing to do with 9/11. As for the Taliban...they are reforming again as we let Afghanistan waste away.
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89. At 8:45pm on 09 Dec 2008, frayedcat wrote:
"Seems to me the CS Monitor article is conclusionary...is presupposes that there was some natural market course already in effect that should be allowed to proceed and would naturally correct itself. I hear this in the halls as well. I think this is a false premise..."
I agree. If the market could really "solve" it's own problems then why did we throw 700 billion dollars at it? Oh that's right, it's a ridiculous notion.
#33, hilarious. Being of a younger generation, I am looking forward to paying for this mess. Not only with the reputation of my country which I do love despite all of our issues but, monetarily as well. Good times.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Ref #80. catemit
"Americans are spoiled because their poor are invisible"
Wrong, the very poor often live near the very rich in the city, while the burbs are middleclass havens.
"they do not have any access to education"
Wrong, public or private school attendance is required until 18 and there are always scholarships.
"The society is almost feudal"
Nothing even close to that ever existed in North America, the U.S. was born in the age of the enlightenment.
"I recall watching several busloads of low-income and minority students visiting supposedly"elite" colleges in the US - these students spent almost all of their time on campus at the giftshop!... They have the "spend-spend" philosophy down pat, but who gets their money? And what do they leave with? If followed up, I guarantee that no more than one student on 3-4 buses got to spend a term on any of these campuses."
I don't even know how to respond to such nonsense; did you even ask if they were students or better yet TOURISTS? Or, how about the visiting sports fans of a traditionally black college?- you never specified the minority in question.
Either way, you have exagerated and accused out of ignorance.
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#53 "Peter,
"Washington needs a mass transit link to the airport thats priced at a reasonable rate..."
WHY? "
its not rocket science... if the mass transit link costs more per mile than concorde no one will use it.
I'd have thought the home of the free market could work out that if the train costs 4 times what a car does not many people will get out of their car.
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77. "Sorry, no, I personally do not think our invasion of Afghanistan or Iraq will make terrorists think twice. I don't think the extremist's mind works that way. The more we punish them, the more determined they become, from what I've seen. If anything, the mistakes we have made and the inevitable civilian casualties have probably made it easier to sway suffering people with extremist arguments."
Sadly this argument doesn't work for you in Iraq. Al Que'da have commited so many atrocities that the Sunni insurgents who initially fought the US have now joined up with the americans to hammer Al Que'da.
What is also true is that now rather than attack the home of 'the great satan' the average jihadi is going to Iraq or Afghanistant to fight US troops, not New York to kill US civillians. The invasion of Iraq was not worth the cost but it has had several successes, not least taking the battle to the enemy, not letting them take it here.
Its also worth remininding people how quickly Gaddafi surrended his WMD program after the US invaded Iraq. At least one pariah state has partially reformed its ways and started obeying international law rather than go the way of Saddam.
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Ms marbles,
And houses too. You and I know this, but it takes time for stuff to sink in...reprise from the distant past....or, from a little more recently... Ah, hindsight!Peace and providence
ed
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Neighbour (100),
So 'expanding outwards' is your idea of a rational solution?Seriously, though, I was simply highlighting the recurrence of the idea that hypermobility is a given necessary and Good Thing. Any challenge leads to a solution involving the same sort of thinking which gave us the problem in the first place. Where is that Einstein quote when we need it?We need new thinking (and fewer folk, not ideas of how to build perpetual free-energy spaceships to export the surplus...)
We have come to such a pass that the idea of living within our means (and just perhaps rushing about a bit less) seems radical and new....(and irrational?)
Or we could remember Henry Thoreau:Peace and new thinking
ed
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Via Media,
and now, the "new" thinking calls for another Bretton Woods....How novel! Of course, I'm inclined to make provocative statements, but we do need to be shocked into new thinking. Bretton Woods (ironically?) was simply a way of avoiding new thinking by creating a "peacetime" economy based upon consumption to substitute for the demand for tanks, jeeps, shells, bombs, etc., which drove wartime expansion.I'm sorry, but this seems a simple assertion to me. I see little evidence, and today's population growth is the same as yesterday's...I don't think "going back" is an option, and, in fact, that's the crux of my argument - all the 'solutions' on offer seem to be just that (save the auto industry, build more roads and bridges, re-vitalise consumer Main Street, get folk borrowing again...) - and yet I'm the one accused of recommending a return to the past! Ah, irony!Peace and simplicity
ed
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As a Scot,
Sorry to pick on you, but this is a real chestnut:1. The problem is an unsustainable level of resource consumption.
2. Raising "living standards" raises resource consumption. How is that a solution?
The usual answer is that when folks' "standard of living" rises, their reproductive rate drops, and this is true, but it takes at least a generation for their population growth rate to get anywhere near zero, far less for population growth to even think about beginning to "reverse".
And, in the meantime, what are the results? Yet more humans consuming even more resources. So raising "standards" for the 'third world', while a thoroughly admirable sentiment, is not a solution, and is really only an excuse to avoid considering tackling the problem at source - our own levels of consumption - but, as noted earlier, the last thing a junkie considers is a reduction of his own habit...
Peace and frugality
ed
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#116 Ed
I agree with you- I'm one of the converted. But I just think conversion to new mindsets takes time. It's been 30+ years since the first challenges to consumerism were raised, and those first prophetic voices were looked on as lunatics.
I don't think he's the best example for current environmentalism, but the fact that Al Gore was awarded the Nobel Prize for environmental work shows how far we've come.
But consumerism has deep roots in at least the American psyche, and I'm afraid those most affected aren't the ones to listen. Most will say, "yes, I believe in protecting the environment", but either don't know how, or don't care.
I'm afraid it'll be my children's generation that make the real changes, or at least finish the job we started.
And, apologies if I seemed to accuse you of Ludditism- not my intent.
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"I don't think he's the best example for current environmentalism, but the fact that Al Gore was awarded the Nobel Prize for environmental work shows how far we've come."
No he was awarded it because the panel were hilariously anti-bush. They'd have given the prize to Bin Ladin if they could have found it.
An inconvenient truth is riddled with lies such as the snow melting on kilimanjaro proving global warming (its been melting for 100 years because of deforestation on the lower slopes) and Gore is a hypocrite who lives in a mansion & flies around the world self-promoting. He has 100 times the carbon footprint I do.
Its a shame they couldn't have given the prize to a REAL enviromentalist rather than a failed politician. After all who was no 2 in the white house when Kyoto was rejected? THAT is an inconvenient truth!
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Peter (112)
And that's a bad thing? BTW, I reckon you'll find it costs rather more by car (if you count all the costs).It's not rocket science to see that you reckon transport should be subsidised. My question stands - Why?
Peace and full economic costing
ed
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#120. In London the heathrow express is £1.20 a mile. Its 20p a mile by subway (london underground). The express is always mostly empty and the tube train packed solid.
My drive to work is about 15p a mile in petrol because as I already own the car the 'other costs' don't apply.
Nowhere do I say that I think transport should be subsidised. What I say is that if the train is so expensive that no-one uses it then its a waste of money.
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Peter,
Surely you're not that simple!Complain about this comment
#122. Clearly I am. The main costs for my car: initial purchase, depreciation in value, insurance, MOT inspection, road tax and annual servicing apply whether it does 20,000 miles a year or sits outside my house without moving at all.
Considering you reckon it doesn't matter how much transport costs at all I'd be very careful who you call simple too.
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100. At 00:03am on 10 Dec 2008, AsaScot
(it was doing this)we need to embrace technologies
that will tackle( that led to this )climate change
With ALL we have done we have done nothing that has really helped the third world.
We have increased deserts .
taken forests.
polluted water ways
Lets see about the "new technologies"
would that be CLONING. Yipee Don't NEED it
would that be NANO TECH Yipee again we dont NEED it.
would it be Bioengineering Yipee we don't NEED it.
It was science fiction that brought us the moon not scientists.
It was the fiction writers that had the vision.
The military uses people from this Genre to come up with new weapons ,sometimes.
Imagination being the thing that creates.
What new technology cannot be misused (given humanities record) as much or more than used for good.
GM Seeds no Germinate what happened?
Biotech (weapons that will only get worse).
Viruses that cure can kill as well.
Nano tech looks hopeful but I am not the scifi writer that will point out the problems.
All of this has been covered in that great classic British comic 2000AD.
Check it out.
Those fantasy writings have a point. just as Jules Vern and Issac Asimov.
For every advantage you can come up with from tech someone else will make a mistake.
But what happens when that virus that alters gene sequence breaks out of the lab.
the nanotech sugar absorber for diabetics gets into the plants.
there are always consequences and we humans more often than not forget that.
Just wait for the wars when they can clone a soldier that is ABC resistant . When they can release gene recognising viruses.
Scary scare mongering stuff but so was Pollution and Global warming at one stage in VERY recent history.
Seems to me we have done rather a lot of damage that tech way.
Now I live in the states.
I wouldn't if I were living 300 years ago.
My life would have been very different.
I would not have travelled, all of which led me to trying not to have to travel.
Did those in the past never find their SOULMATE because they lived on another continent.I doubt it.
Travel should be an experience.Not just one day of hell in lines and cramped seats.
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Peter,
Oh, it matters allright. My position is simply that the true full cost should be considered. I'm also certain that you aren't as simple as you make out. Do you park your car free at the office? At the airport? Does it have 'everlasting' tyres? Does your insurance rate reflect annual mileage? If it is used more, does that affect replacement interval?.....Complain about this comment
86. At 7:39pm on 09 Dec 2008, chronophobe wrote:
Re: 68 happylaze
Not sure how trained lawyers will be of any use.
Ah, but where there is commerce, there are contracts, and where there are contracts there will be lawyers . . .
And besides, somebody's got to live on that big house on the hill and commission the lowly smith to built the big iron gates that protect it from the plebes.
Cheers,
Canadian Pinko
LOL I would have more faith if lawyers were not the only ones that get rich.
The guy in the big house should watch out the smithy might just stop them from getting out.;) and we all know they start a fire every day.
And that most of the metal will be left behind after the fire.
Win Win.
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103. At 01:01am on 10 Dec 2008, Jeebers76 wrote:
93 Unless you can give us a more concrete connection between Obama and this corrupt governor, then why pray tell did you post this cynicism? Do you have any evidence that this will occur?
It was interesting that on the tapes the dodgy gov said "@#@# obama team they only offer appreciation,"
The prosecution has been very clear on this.
As the courts were about his birth.
This angle is rubbish . boy I would not want to be that Gov
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#117 Ed Iglehart:
"our own levels of consumption - but, as noted earlier, the last thing a junkie considers is a reduction of his own habit..."
As opposed to the green habit of disregarding reality? Their delusional 'fix' of some rural idyll?
Yes we need to use resources more efficiently but that doesn't mean the wholesale abandonment of technology so many Greens seem to advocate, or the underlying assumption that nature is 'good' and people are 'bad' that underlies so much of this green worldview. Just because after decades of doom mongering Greens have finally latched on to a real problem in the shape of global warming does not make them suited to finding solutions, indeed they oppose any option that smacks of a technological fix simply because it doesn't fit their bizzare worldview.
And please don't mention alternative energy; Greens are always in favour of it until someone actually tries to build a wind farm, or a tidal barrage. At that point there's always a reason why a given project shouldn't be built.
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#125. Mileage has little impact on my insurance. Works out at about £10 per extra thousand miles a year. Likewise tyres should be good for 30,000 miles+ and cost £80 each to replace. Leaving a car stationary for a month does more damage to tyres than driving on them. The factors you list might all together raise my cost to 16p a mile rather that 15p.
Airport parking IS a valid point. The last time I flew I got a taxi because it worked out cheaper than any other option.
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101. At 00:10am on 10 Dec 2008, BrianDMerritt wrote:
All the wind turbines built in the U.S., at about 10,000 units, produce about 4.5 gigawatts of energy, the equivalent of one large coal-fired power station. Environmental groups, with powerful political support, are now lobbying against coal-fired, natural gas and any new nuclear power plants. So where does Obama go from here?
there was comment before here about the use of solar.
there are products out there that can be used for roofing if all the houses in the US were solar roof (PS solar water heating can work anywhere and provide free heat) we would not need one more power plant.
Still I really hate that dry a/c , forced air heating feeling that needs nasal Drops and a humidifier to correct.
I don't go near those buildings if i can help it because they just don't feel right.
Washing on the line to dry is WAY less energy intensive than a machine but lines are BANNED in many cities.
The solutions are there and Nuke is not one. Unless you have a secret cheap disposal method Other than dumping it onto another generation.
like we have with every other problem we wished to Ignore
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#124 You want a new technology that can't be used for evil? How about a new generation of antibiotics.... god knows we need that.
If you can imagine a nastier way to die than Ebola then I'm glad I don't share your imagination. Mother nature has does a damn fine job creating some of the worst killers in history.
YOU might not need cloning but many of us do. Dolly the sheep was cloned as the first step in making a flock of sheep producing beta 1-Antitrypsin in their milk. If your liver wasn't producing that you'd be damn grateful for cloning. Equally cloning is the best hope for providing new organs for transplant patients... I'd rather not wait for someone to die in a bike crash if I needed a kidney.
Lasty the irony of someone badmouthing nano-tech ON A PC is the funniest thing I've seen all day!
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111
Wow surprised you didn't moan about anti americanism.
Education for the poor is worse than for the rich.
feudal
we have had 8 years of a guy who's biggest claim to fame was his DAD was president.
I feel Like america is a big SCA meeting sometimes all dressed up as your fantasy is voting for the new lord and ladies.
As was talked about earlier by some here.
Caroline Kennedy Jeb both sides americans falling for it.
Sometimes because those lives give them knowledge but look where it got us with GW.
sorry If you liked him he is a total failure and to not see this is amazing even his DAD distanced himself from him.
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#124 Happylaze:
"Lets see about the "new technologies"
would that be CLONING. Yipee Don't NEED it
would that be NANO TECH Yipee again we dont NEED it.
would it be Bioengineering Yipee we don't NEED it."
Oh well if you say so then....
"All of this has been covered in that great classic British comic 2000AD.
Check it out."
Read it since issue 1 thanks.
"Those fantasy writings have a point. just as Jules Vern and Issac Asimov."
Have you actually read Asimov? I doubt very much he would have shared your technophobia and while 'The Caves of Steel' portrayed a fairly negative viewpoint in some respects it hardly endorsed a green viewpoint, indeed the group in that book, the medievalists, who would be identified with the Greens were the bad guys, trying to turn back the clock rather than embrace the future.
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131. At 3:26pm on 10 Dec 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
#124 You want a new technology that can't be used for evil? How about a new generation of antibiotics.... god knows we need that.
If you can imagine a nastier way to die than Ebola then I'm glad I don't share your imagination. Mother nature has does a damn fine job creating some of the worst killers in history.
YOU might not need cloning but many of us do. Dolly the sheep was cloned as the first step in making a flock of sheep producing beta 1-Antitrypsin in their milk. If your liver wasn't producing that you'd be damn grateful for cloning. Equally cloning is the best hope for providing new organs for transplant patients... I'd rather not wait for someone to die in a bike crash if I needed a kidney.
Lasty the irony of someone badmouthing nano-tech ON A PC is the funniest thing I've seen all day!
Peter
Anti Biotics . hmmm OK how about THE anti biotic kills them all works like a dream.
No more digestion.
Simple enough.
As for cloned dolly and the drug .
I'm not sure a quick wiki no knowledge search say some of this could be real useful to help smoking as well , but stopping smoking would be better.
But OK so the same tech cannot make a compound that can kill?
How far did ebola spread in africa was it a big problem until we created ZIPPY MOVEMENT.
As for bad mouthing nano on a PC.
why not.
Nano tech on my old mac is not the big factor.
I doubt much nano tech was needed . micro maybe but not nano.
Do you even know what nano tech is?
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"there are products out there that can be used for roofing if all the houses in the US were solar roof (PS solar water heating can work anywhere and provide free heat) we would not need one more power plant."
Really? What magic material is it that produces enough power to heat a house at 1am in in a Chicago winter?
Solar is great in new mexico or arizona but it is certainly not the answer for the northern states. I priced it for my own house and I reckoned I MIGHT break even after 15 years (and the life of the solar water unit was reckoned to be 20 but was only guaranteed for 10 years)
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"Anti Biotics . hmmm OK how about THE anti biotic kills them all works like a dream.
No more digestion."
Why on earth would anyone create such a compound when we have cyanide? £20 a kilo. Kills people as quickly as pretty much anything and is a naturally occuring compound.
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Paul Volcker represents O.P.E.C. within the American Administration. He became influential during the Nixon-Ford-Carter years. Volcker is responsible for the rise in oil prices. The Saudis use Paul for selling petroleum in the United States. He advocated for the SUV, HV, and LPV that guzzle gasoline. When Volcker is removed by Barack Obama, this Administration will introduce hydrogen fuel.
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128. At 3:19pm on 10 Dec 2008, AsaScot wrote:
and further refusals of various arguments I didn't make....a rather strange way to debate....;-)
ed
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#138 Ed Iglehart:
"and further refusals of various arguments I didn't make....a rather strange way to debate....
;-)
ed"
I was simply seeking to head off the inevitable response, though I should have known better than to debate with a green, they have their beliefs and those who question them are heretics and infidels, and yes I do see parallels with another brand of 'fundamentalist'.
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136. At 3:55pm on 10 Dec 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
"Anti Biotics . hmmm OK how about THE anti biotic kills them all works like a dream.
No more digestion."
Why on earth would anyone create such a compound when we have cyanide? ?20 a kilo. Kills people as quickly as pretty much anything and is a naturally occuring compound.
Are you that simple?
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/bioterror/global.html
In fact you say why would they create that when there are easier ways.
Have you noticed the food distribution system we have here on this planet today.
The oil soaked food system..
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/12/magazine/12policy-t.html
PROFIT daer fellow do not over simplify things. you must know that delivery systems etc lead to "advances" in bioweaponary.
Don't ask ME "WHY ON EARTH"
Go ask them "scientists"
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Scot,
No. You were simply setting up straw men to avoid making any real argument. But why change the habit of a lifetime? Peace and new thinkinged
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Everything the government is doing now, and everything the Obama government is going to do when it takes over, is making the situation worse.
We got into this mess because we borrowed and spent too much money. The solution isn't going into deeper debt to encourage Americans to borrow even more money, we need a serious recession and the government needs to get out of the way and let it happen. We need higher interest rates, we need more savings, we need more production. The problem is for years we borrowed money we couldn't repay. We ran up trillions of debt, and now we're too broke to pay it back.
We have a phoney economy that's been propped up by foreign governments and foreign workers who have produced the stuff that we bought, and lent us the money to buy it. We need to recreate a viable economy in this country again, and unfortunately that comes with a lot of pain.
If interest rates rise and asset prices fall, Americans will start saving money again, will have money for businesses to borrow, entrepreneurs will take the capital and invest it in factories and plants and equipment, we'll become more productive and eventually we'll be able to consume more. Right now we're not producing anything and we're living beyond our means.
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#141 Ed Iglehart:
"Peace and new thinking
ed"
Peace and start thinking
AsaScot
Out of here before my loathing of the Green movement prompts me to say something that will get me banned.
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As to being a fundamentalist, I must admit the truth of it:
I have several fundamental beliefs which colour all the rest of my understanding;
1. Humans are logically incapable of fully understanding the Whole of which we are but a tiny part.
2. I believe in the Truth of the First law of Thermodynamics - that neitheer matter nor energy can be created nor destroyed. Thus I reject all ideas of 'free lunches'.
Actually, that's only two, but they just about sum it up. Both also seem intuitively true, and thus not requiring any 'proof'.
Peace and fundamentalism
ed
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You say that this guy is wrong, why don't you prove it, take his arguements, dissect them, and prove him wrong.
Do it Justin walk the walk.
I think he's right, what's more I think David Camerons right too. Prove him and me wrong, but don't say he's wrong just because you disagree with him.
Prove him wrong because your arguement is better than his.
I don't think you can, prove me wrong as well.
Phil R.
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Oh well, since I'm labelled a fundamentalist Greenie I might as well make a recommendation: Strangely enough, there seem to be some pretty on-topic topics....
Peace and new thinking
ed
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#124 You want a new technology that can't be used for evil? How about a new generation of antibiotics.... god knows we need that.
another point.
the rise of MERSA was strangely at the same time that a few anti bacterial hand cleaners chopping boards and hospital equipmentetc were hitting the market.
God knows we need new anti biotics?
So we can feed them to cows so they produce more milk?
So they crap where badgers can eat it.
then the badgers get resistant strains of the TB. which they then pass BACK to the cows.
Yipeee.
Now we can solve the problem by killing all the badgers.
Great
Those Bacteria you mention that are so bad (and they are) were created by using Anti biotics.
Just as drug resistant TB was caused by not taking the full regime of drugs.
I could Go on. we solve one problem to create another.
Just look at the side effects of some of the drugs advertised in the US.
WHY WOULD SOMEONE invent a drug that can kill you in order to stop nausea .
Pot works.
Medicine has proven that.
But instead they invent Marinol which makes people feel almost as bad in a different way.
great.
I did not mean to say you were simple earlier but I will say that you ignore the truth.
I fully understand that without the benefits of medical science I would have died on my 9 birthday the day my appendix burst.
but I would be dead and the world would have continued.
Many people all over the world suffer and I am not one to wish suffering on anyone, but why should you be allowed not to suffer at the expense of others.
Do you really think as someone living in the west that you are not creating some problems for them other people?
We could save more lives if we stopped making the same mistakes again and again.
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Based on the recent performance of the financial community and its camp followers (like economics professors), I would have to say that doing something, even if its wrong, might finally lead us to doing what is right.
Isn't it amazing how many so called financial experts have appeared to tell us how to get out of this mess, yet none of them were smart enough, or compelling enough, to tell us how to prevent it.
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"The case against Obama's New Deal is the same as the one against FDR's New Deal. Despite the hoopla and liberal lionization of FDR, his New Deal did nothing to end the Depression." - dsanthony
Garbage. GDP went down, and unemployment rose, from 1929 to 1932 (US GDP fell in all 25%), while Hoover did little more than "leave it to the market". IN 1932 he started deficit spending and then first signs of recovery appeared. FDR greatly increased this, and GDP rose and unemployment fell, every year until 1937-8 when FDR, wrongly worried about the deficit, too his foot off the pedal. Recovery resumed in 1938-9, and rearmament then speeded the process. By 1945, the USA was poised for the longest period of rapid, sustained growth in the last century. The Depression also affected europe, and those countries which began Keynesian measures first (notably Sweden) began to recover first. Of course the right try to obscure these facts, since they simply won't fit into their ideology.
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This is a little off-topic, but I was reminded of some of the comments on this thread regarding green ideas when I ran into an article a few minutes ago on the front page of the csmonitor.com about a Colorado couple who are attempting to spend 1 year without buying anything new (with certain exceptions when it comes to hygiene, consumables, and safety-related items). I thought some here might find it an interesting read.
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Ed,
Eden?
The future, I certainly hope, is going to be urban. That is, any future that doesn't involve some horrific environmental or other catastrophe that radically de-populates the planet. And that, surely, is nothing to wish for.
The choice, it seems to me, is in what kind of cities most of us will live in. In saying that, I don't preclude the possibility that some privileged few may wish to reach for their own rural Edens (my particular retirement fantasy involves building wooden boats and tending an organic apple orchard in the Annapolis Valley . . . ) . But how realistic is it to suppose that we could, or even would want to, abandon our cities, our commerce, our airports?
In the developed world, we can choose between models of urban life ranging from say, Amsterdam to Los Angeles (and I'm sorry in advance for stereotyping L.A.) In the best of all possible cities, the 'good life' is measured by how far one has to walk or bike to find the best coffee, the coolest bookstore, the local green grocer that has the most amazingly fresh local organic plums, the park with the best views and the best buskers, etc. You don't need a car, and maybe don't often even need to take public transit, because the things you need, and many things you want, are there in your neighborhood. Because you're not spending 2 or 3 hours commuting, you are better are able to participate in local organizations, and therefore have a sense of pride and place.
That, to me, would be an urban Eden; walkable, livable, human scaled spaces where cars have been put in proper place. So bring on some of that infrastructure money for finding creative ways to deal with the urban rot that festers in the core of so many cities . . .
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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43, Peter.
"I remember JFK as the man who won the white house after his bootlegger father had the Mafia swing Illinois, the man who started Vietnam, the man who invaded cuba and damn near started WW3, yet everyone else seems to think he presided over a new camelot. Nixon covered up a burgalry, but also started a real raport with China and ENDED vietnam yet he's apparently the most evil man in US political history."
You are dead on about the above. I agree with you on just about everything, except perhaps Eisenhower. I think America made a big mistake by not electing Adlai Stevenson. By the way, it was the father of the present Mayor Daley of Chicago, a friend of the Kennedys, who "swung" the Illinois vote.
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#147. Bad choice of subjects to bring up. I've been working on a diagnostic test for MRSA (you can't even spell it properly- what on earth is MERSA???) for 2 years. Neither can you apparently tell the difference between antibiotics and antibacterials. Next time you get a cough please don't drink disinfectant......
MRSA has been found in path samples going back to the 30's. Antibiotics are NOT MUTAGENIC. They do not create antibiotic superbugs. Mutation arise spontaneously and the antibiotics provide a selective enviroment that allows resistant strains to flourish at the expense of non-resistant strains. Darwin called it 'survival of the fittest'.
If you don't understand technology please don't spread your paranoia online.
And yes, god knows we need new antibiotics. If you disagree I suggest you go visit an ITU ward and look at someome dying from PVL strain MRSA pneumonia. See if they or their relatives care about your stupid ludditism.
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" When Volcker is removed by Barack Obama, this Administration will introduce hydrogen fuel. "
and where will this hydrogen come from? There's no naturally occuring elemental hydrogen on earth. You will need more energy to produce the hydrogen than burning it will produce. Its a basic law of physics. Arnies ' zero eeeemeeesion HUM- VEE' that runs on hydrogen is anything but 'zero emmision'... the hydrogen is generated by burning coal in nevada!
Incidentally what rising cost in oil? The price has dropped from $150 a barrel to $50 in a few months and the insane increase last year was due to speculators not Saudis. Does Volker also sell the stuff to the Chinese because they're the biggest consumers of it now. Remember that 80% of oil used in the USA comes from the Americas, not the Saudis.
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Pinko,
And who will feed it?Peter, Sophistry. The use of antibiotics, as you note, creates the conditions for development of resistance. The irony of the resulting resistant bugs militating for the development of new antibiotics seems to have escaped you.
Absolutely! A fundamentalist point.
Peace and an urban anthill future?
ed
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Chu on this. Finally, some proper Science at the heart of government energy policy....
Here's hoping
ed
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"Sophistry. The use of antibiotics, as you note, creates the conditions for development of resistance"
No. They don't. Thats the whole damn point. The use of antibiotics allows bugs that have already developed resistance to multiply. IT DOES NOT CREATE THE RESISTANCE IN THE FIRST PLACE. That occurs, randomly whether you use antibiotics or not.
I should perhaps remind you that most antibiotics- penicillin being the most obvious- are natural products. Antibiotic resistant bugs are Darwin in action.
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Hydrogen production may not be as effiecient as one might desire, is is still a most portable form of clean energy (erg/pound) until better batteries can be developed.
We'll just have to make do with the technology we have.
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152. At 05:23am on 11 Dec 2008, allmymarbles wrote:
43, Peter.
"I remember JFK as the man who won the white house after his bootlegger father had the Mafia swing Illinois, the man who started Vietnam, the man who invaded cuba and damn near started WW3, yet everyone else seems to think he presided over a new camelot. Nixon covered up a burgalry, but also started a real raport with China and ENDED vietnam yet he's apparently the most evil man in US political history."
More than just a burglary though wasn't it?
He was trying to subvert the constitution wasn't he?
He was also involved in the murderous bombing of Cambodia, thus facilitating the coming to power of the Khmer Rouge, and only opened to China in a vain hope of shifting attention away from Watergate.
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Peter, You should really pause before you start shouting:
Where did I say it created the resistance?If I substituted "flowering" of "prospering" for "development", would my terminology be more pleasing to your ear? As I said, sophistry - Argument for the sake of argument.
Peace
ed
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Re: 151 Ed Inglehart
Ed, again, thanks for the link:
So, yeah, people in cities gotta eat. But if more of us live in live in communities where mega-marts just don't fit, then we start to go for the good stuff. And if we city slickers want good food, this will mean less demand for the product of agribusiness (and all it entails), and more demand for artisanal farmers and producers. Win win.
That being said, the thought of eating nothing but turnips, carrots and potatoes all winter long does not appeal to me. There will still be a (reduced) place for long haul imports, at least up here.
Even on that front, however, once people get used to organic, they are going to want their imports to be organic also. And that, at least, will be an improvement.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko, already thinking about the avocado I'm having for lunch (on local bread, with local sprouts, of course!)
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Re: Ed's link to Wendell Berry in 151, again.
The next time I feel a liberal knee jerk coming on, I'm going to think of this:
Maybe conservatives could restrain their appendages likewise?
Yours, Canadian Pinko
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#158. Hydrogen is only a clean form of power if its made with electricity itself generated cleanly. If you're burning fossil fuel to make hydrogen you're actually producing more pollution than running the car on the fossil fuels in the first place.
Its portable ....ish. I use a lot of cryogenic liquids at work and had to be specially trained. Filling up a car with a liquid at -230 isn't something I'd trust the general public to do. Hydrogen gas being so small escapes from even the tiniest join in your plumbing. At pressure H2 can even pass through the gaps between atoms in copper pipes so cars would have to be massively over-engineered to ensure safety.
Realistically I don't see a hydrogen economy happening. Bio-fuels in the short term and electric long term is safer and cheaper.
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#159. As opposed to JFK who DID subvert the constition and should never have been elected in the first place.
Nixon bombed Cambodia because the VC were using it to ship arms to South Vietnam.
Don't get me wrong- I don't like Nixon. My point is why is he a devil while JFK is a saint? At least Nixons father didn't favour Hitler in WW2!!!!!
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#160 "Where did I say it created the resistance"?
Here.
"The use of antibiotics, as you note, creates the conditions for development of resistance"
What else does create the conditions for development of resistance mean? That is quite different from the 'prospering' you suggest which would be an accurate term.
The truth is that whether you use antibiotics or not has NO effect on the creation of resistant strains. Your claim that antibacterial chopping boards created MRSA earlier was the funniest thing I've read in a long while. They work by punching holes in the bacterial membrane, not inhibiting the synthesis of it as antibiotics do.
Peversely the things that still do kill MRSA are the sort of chopping boards and alcohol hand washes you were blaming for creating the stuff.
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Re #113 Peter_Sym,
I'm afraid I'm still not in total agreement with you on this.
Have Al Queda actions in Iraq turned people against them? Quite possibly. As for the Sunnis suddenly being on our side, are they on our side or the side of anyone willing to arm and support them -- us, for now? And just as surely as "Al Queda atrocities" will turn people against them, so will prison abuses and long-term declines in the standard of living due to destroyed infrastructure cause resentment toward us. Even if we assumed an impossible scenario in which we never caused hardship on the people we are occupying, there are those who would fight us simply because we are a foreign power occupying their country. Will more people turn against Al Queda than turn against us? Is there really any way to tell?
And still, there is the thought that taking the fight to someone else's yard makes us safer. Yes, I do think it is much easier for extremists to hit us in other countries, and more convenient. Does that mean they wouldn't choose an American civilian target over a military target in the Middle East if given the right opportunity? I don't think so.
Then there is the moral question of whether it was right to make Iraqi civilians suffer so that American civilians would not. Like anyone else, I certainly don't want my friends or family to suffer, but that doesn't make it an acceptible idea to invite my enemies to my neighbor's house so the neighbor can bear the brunt of suffering and destruction from my war.
Regards.
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re. 161. chronophobe:
"That being said, the thought of eating nothing but turnips, carrots and potatoes all winter long does not appeal to me. There will still be a (reduced) place for long haul imports, at least up here."
In Ohio we've been buying Canadian hydroponic tomatoes for a while, so someone up your way must be growing things in greenhouses in the winter. Parts of Ontario are actually south of parts of the US.
And even the traditional winter vegetables aren't limited to turnips, carrots and potatoes. There's always sauerkraut ;-)
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And please don't mention alternative energy; Greens are always in favour of it until someone actually tries to build a wind farm, or a tidal barrage.
128 some of those with good concern ie tidal barrage.
but as for wind why is it that it is the greenies that stop that.
they are Nimby's not greenies.
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119
An inconvenient truth is riddled with lies such as the snow melting on kilimanjaro proving global warming (its been melting for 100 years because of deforestation on the lower slopes) and Gore is a hypocrite who lives in a mansion & flies around the world self-promoting. He has 100 times the carbon footprint I do.
wow so what if he is a lying sack of bovine waste , how does that excuse OUR behaviour.
they put the real environmentalists in Jail for terrorism.
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Re #169 happylaze,
Eh, I'm not sure which environmentalists you mean here, so I cannot really comment on that specifically.
I can say I have an appreciation for the way environmentalists in the UK handled the GM fields issue in the 90's: pulling up the plants in dead of night and depositing them on the steps of the local government offices in bags marked "biohazard".
I cannot say I appreciate the tactics of American groups like ELF. I suspect the tendency to firebomb housing developments and businesses will eventually end in serious injury or death, which can only harm the cause of all environmentalists.
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peter a lot of smoke there.
And a scientist trying to defend his grant and work to himself.
Mersamrsa.
When did it start becoming a problem?
PS I said " the rise" in mersa
All the smoke but where is the fire?
When I suggested that IF we invent the perfect anti biotic there could be problems with digestion.(by mistake)
Just because you say they will not do that does not make it so.
You even suggest that I am unfeeling because every little miracle you can dream up I can think of a down side.
How many natural cures are destroyed every day?
So rich scientists an lawyers can buy a mahogany desk?(you get the point).
I'd agree that much has been done that does benefit man.
But there is always a price.
How would you do your research without those containment cabinets etc.
They are made by digging up someone else's back yard or polluting their water.
Call me a luditte if you like.
I would take that as a compliment.
I suspect you have only just grasped that Global warming is happening.
Anti biotics in the water supply because we use so many to feed cows etc.
you never went near that or frankly the meat of any of this discussion.
instead you come out with the Oh I know because I study this TINY part of the equation that I obviously understand it all.
Again where did Mrsa first appear in hospitals and has it's spread out of hospitals been associated with anything.
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170 mdalerwill
I understand and fully support your comments .
The fire bombings were by a few misguided individuals who have been punished in a equally misguided manner .
Moving them to special prisons.
treating them as terrorists, despite the fact that they did make sure the buildings were empty.
They damaged property and well behaved in a less destructive manner than the swat teams do.
It is true that it WILL end up in death if they continue but then remember this.
protester getting shot at by "locals"when tree sitting.
http://www.nopepperspray.org/
or pepper spray q tipped into the eyes.
this battle has been a lot more harmful to all those that protest.
Show me the protester that killed someone?
not yet .
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C07E1DA1530F93AA2575AC0A96E958260
http://www.albionmonitor.net/9810a/gypsydeath7.html
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Peter,
Two points:1. I did not use the term "create".
2. I made no reference to chopping blocks (nor did I use the term MRSA (or "MERSA"))
If you like precision, you should be precise, both in noting what others say, and who says it, as well as to which terms you choose to re-define, e.g. "develop".
Peace and clarity.
ed
P.S. Ill-judged use of antibiotics does facilitate the development of resistant strains.
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159, Simon.
The whole Watergate business had to do with spying on the opposition. It is standard procedure. Do you think it wasn't happening in this election, or any election? Nixon got caught.
And two reporters became famous.
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Re #172, happylaze,
As far as I know, ELF has been lucky and no one has been physically injured. As I said, though, how long before a mishap occurs because they didn't know there was a security guard in a building or a firefighter gets hurt in the process of putting out a blaze? Those who despise environmental movements will get a lot of mileage out of that.
As far as how environmental protesters are treated, I tend to agree that many have been mistreated while peacefully exercising civil disobedience. I vaguely recall years ago a group of young people who had chained themselves to a great redwood or something of that sort to keep it from being chopped down and the dismay many people felt when the police reacted by prying their eyes open and spraying pepper spray directly into their eyes at point-blank range.
I was also disappointed to hear the recent Berkeley tree-sitters would be facing criminal charges for trying to save the grove of trees on the UC campus. Wanting the protesters removed I can understand, but criminal charges for civil disobedience?
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Correction:
I did use the term "create", but its object was "conditions", not "resistance", nor "resistant strain", "mutation", nor anything other than "conditions"
Peace and precise language ;-)
ed
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mdalerwill (#175), the criminal charges the Berkeley tree-sitters face are relatively minor, such as trespassing and resisting arrest, but include assault and battery in some cases. There are also civil claims for the cost of removing them.
On the whole, remarkable patience was displayed by the Berkeley authorities in dealing with this protest. This matter was well reported by the local press and there was no mistreatment of the protesters that I am aware of.
Accepting punishment for one's crimes is expected of persons who commit acts of civil disobedience, by the way. None of these tree-sitters reminded me of Gandhi.
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165. At 3:53pm on 11 Dec 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
#160 "Where did I say it created the resistance"?
Here.
"The use of antibiotics, as you note, creates the conditions for development of resistance"
means exactly what i said.
It creates the CONDITIONS for the DEVELOPMENT of resistance.
the right environment for developing a resistant strain of an organism is an environment which it can resist.
Therefore if you add lots of agents for it to survive the most resistant strain and maybe even some lesser strains will , unless you are real lucky and get that perfect killer, survive.
Then they breed.
So while it was good that we developed cures for TB , given the failings of man and the evil that sometimes exists, it was only a matter of time before a resistant strain developed because someone could not afford the drug, or forgot to take it.
Then we have to develop a new drug.
So it is true that it has saved many people it is also true that the old strain that people had some natural immunity to (in some cases) is now stronger and we as a people on the planet have to now discover a newer drug because a resistant pandemic without a cure ready in place and with all the worlds attention (which I think would be late at best given the financial situation) would be more catastrophic than we have seen in years.
unforeseen consequences.
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175 mdalerwill
I agree about the stupidity and danger of arson (apart from the total disregard for the resources that had already been used).
But they did leave the building with the homeless guy in it.
agreed danger to fire fighters for ideas is never acceptable.
But too treat them the same as tower hitting terrorists is a bit over the top.
Arson yes but terrorism is beyond reality.
Eugene Oregon apparently has a office of federal agents and a new big impressive federal court house so they can track hippies in Oregon.
Not cool
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Re: 167 timohio
And even the traditional winter vegetables aren't limited to turnips, carrots and potatoes. There's always sauerkraut ;-)
Ah, that fetid fruit!
My father in law (good old Ukrainian boy that he is) used to make his own. Which is fine if you don't mind the house smelling like rotting cabbage ('but that's the way it's supposed to smell,' he would say).
Now, a recipe for genuine Hunky kapusta:
-in a large cast iron skillet, saute a large onion till transparent
-crumble a couple dry cured double smoked polish sausages and saute with onion till the kitchen smells like a smokehouse
-add a pound or so of drained sauerkraut to the sausage onion mixture, and stir. Cook slowly, allowing the bottom layer of kraut to brown. Stir again, and brown some more. Do this about 5 times (about 45 minutes). You might need to add some cooking liquid, beef stock is best.
-serve with smetana (like sour cream, but don't use that jello-ish supermarket crud in the tubs -- make your own, or find a Mexican or such like mercado where they sell the real thing), or with a mushroom gravy (dried wild and local fresh 'shrooms, rich beef stock, herbs to taste, a bit of browned roux to thicken).
Enjoy!
And, when you tire of the kraut, there's always kimchi!
Bon appetit,
Canadian Pinko
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#173 "2. I made no reference to chopping blocks (nor did I use the term MRSA (or "MERSA"))"
Read your point # 147
"another point.
the rise of MERSA was strangely at the same time that a few anti bacterial hand cleaners chopping boards and hospital equipmentetc were hitting the market."
Not only do you not know what your are talking about you can't even remember what you said.
I'd advise against picking any more fights with scientists because we have very good memories and don't miss much. You seem to understand physics but microbiology and biochemistry is beyond you. I have 2 degrees and 10 years experience in this. I wouldn't expect you to know as much as I do on the subject but I would expect to realise that you don't know as much on the subject.
I'd also suggest you look beyond party political stats: in 1997 when Blair came to power one of the first things he did was make hospitals report their MRSA rates- before El Presidente Tony they weren't monitored- MRSA did not suddenly appear in 1997 - its been shown to have been around since 1930 and probably since the dinosaurs. The PVL strain I work with was first discovered in 1897- 30 odds years before penicillin was discovered. Spin that to support your paranoia!
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Peter # 181,
Good to have a working "mad Scientist" as reference person in the blog, instead of just us forgetful oldies.
But, could you be responding to two different bloggers here?........
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Observant Scientist Peter,
Except that you're 'debating' with two different posters.I'd advise you to avoid picking fights for the sake of sophistry. I have degrees too - So what?
It remains a fact that mis-use of antibiotics aids the development of resistant strains. Why deny it?
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Ed # 183, Peter # 181
Easy guys,
Absolute zero is -273.15 centigrade.
Maximum temperature is..... well- " Under our current best-guess of a complete theory of physics, the maximum possible temperature is the Planck temperature, or 1.41679 x 10^32 Kelvins. This translates to about a quarter of a hundred nonillion degrees Fahrenheit (2.5 x 10^32). However, it is common knowledge that our current theories of physics are incomplete, thus leaving open the possibility of still higher temperatures.[ wiseGEEK]
How many degrees do you fancy you are both blogging at now?
Just thought I should throw in my 30 degrees of the Astrological zodiac to help your discussion along.
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Re #177 Gary_A_Hill,
To be fair, I doubt many people/protesters of any ilk would remind us much of Gandhi. It's hard to compete with that kind of historic struggle and self-sacrifice. I do think, however, that some people involved in environmental causes would consider the situation just as dire. Only one planet, and all that...
Charges like trespassing in the Berkeley incident I can understand. Forcing them to bear civil costs...uh, I'm torn on that. I am certain the protest caused costly delays in the project for the UC system, and there's the cost of police time. I'm a little uncomfortable, however, with the idea that people taking a peaceful stand for what they believe in will then be presented with a bill. I could see that becoming a way of monetarily punishing people for any kind of activism.
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Re #179 happylaze,
Do activists like ELF qualify as terrorists? Hmmm, well....my initial reaction is to say...sort of. True they have never shown a desire to hurt anyone, so they are way ahead of the extreme shoot-the-doctor anti-abortion variety of domestic terrorist. They also don't compare at all to the international political/religious terrorist.
I believe I will need to think a little more on this topic.
As for the Oregon FBI offices watching the hippies, I find the thought a little amusing. It would seem that the FBI watches so many people for so many reasons I find it a wonder they can keep themselves straight. I would not be surprised to find myself on some obscure FBI list somewhere purely due to my religious views and my close friendship with a dastardly member of the dangerously subversive Peace Fresno, documented by Michael Moore in all their sign-waving homemade-cookie-swapping fury. This Peace Fresno friend had to undergo an FBI check to get her internship number as a marriage and family therapist. The process should have taken no more than 3 months. It took something like 13 months.
But what can I say, these people are paid to be paranoid and do so on a professional level. I'm sure it serves us well in some cases.
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mdalerwill (#185), don't worry, the bill is a tiny part of the total cost to the University that these people caused.
I don't have any sympathy for this particular group, who thought it was cute to throw their feces at the police.
It's not because I'm opposed to civil disobedience generally. I was part of a "sit-in" in 1967. We didn't use pseudonyms, as protesters do today, and we went quietly when they came to arrest us.
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The truth is that whether you use antibiotics or not has NO effect on the creation of resistant strains.
oh so that is why the doctors charge you to visit them when you want some anti biotics.
Nothing to do with them wanting to stop people mis administering these drugs and helping in the promotion of a resistant strain.
Given your refusal to accept this I suspect as with another blogger who is an "engineer" that you have not the skills you claim but may in fact be a 2 year student.
If you are really a scientist then we are all in deep do do.
tag ED
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181peter stop pontificating.
I Asked if the boards were related you just assume no it seems.
mrsa may have been around since the 30's but as I pointed out earlier as you started to smoke it up. Influenza from the 1918 strain has been "recreated" and now it exists ready to escape. ARE WE BETTER OFF FOR THAT?
If mrsa was so big in the lets say 40's how come it is only starting to be the problem it is. and did not Tony ask for those reports BECAUSE of the rise.
You are fundamentally wrong here in you own topic of "expertise"
Again it seems that if you really do have two degrees and 10 years then the standard of education where you are at is very very low.
PS I think you will find in due course that ED also has some experience in this field but go ahead thinking you are proving something with waffle.
For you own self help, get a more open mind.
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spin that to stop people thinking you are a mad scientist
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2006/feb/23/health.lifeandhealth
nothing happening here.
http://www.flavorx.com/human/press/press_oct_20_06.asp
with the line
"This drug-resistant strain was first seen in hospitals, where there was more exposure to different antibiotics. "
seems to suport some of what others say not you , but well your a scientist right.
As for the chopping board , I notice things little things sometimes . You claim you can remember but how can you remember something you never heard?
I remember when "tomorrows world " introduced the antibacterial chopping board, and other products.
then not long after I heard about the rise of the flesh eater.
I put 1 and 1 together and said "look there is 1 and there is 1 I will not forget them , I will not assume, but I will not forget them."
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Re #187 Gary_A_Hill
Feces? I would support that being a chargeable offense.
Indeed, people need to remember the value of the peaceful part of peaceful protest. I think it's one of the few places where the value of taking the moral high ground is richly repaid.
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Re #189 happylaze,
Regarding MRSA, I don't know much about it. A friend gave me a laymen's book about modern medicine in the US when my mother died last year shortly after becoming infected with MRSA. The book indicated that 25% of surfaces in medical facilities have MRSA on them. Disturbing stuff. Unfortunately I cannot remember the name of the book off the top of my head.
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186 Mdalerwill
My thing with the terrorism charge is this.
I consider the terrorists to be those that fought Global warming being true despite the evidence.
Those peaceful people of america have wrought destruction on others by overusing resources.
These so called "terrorists" were trying to point to the truth and there was so much money and so much effort to discredit them despite the science backing them up.
Still we do not see the Big 3 auto leaders in jail for environmental terrorism and I guarantee that the rise in SUV crashes and asthma due to pollution has killed as many as were ever in danger by these "terrorists".
But the country has priorities,
ask the people of Tonga who the terrorists are.
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193 It is OK about mrsa it seems that peter knows almost as little.
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Re #194 happylaze,
I probably lean your direction on the topic, just not quite as far. Where you say "terrorist" I would probably say "criminal" or "immoral". Of course, if business as usual continues, and environmental issues and issues of social equity do not improve, what may have looked like poor judgment yesterday or criminal negligence today may well be considered terrorism tomorrow.
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