Republicans vs. unions
The car deal is in trouble again and the United Auto Workers (UAW) union is being asked to commit hara-kiri in order to let it pass the Senate.
This line is from one of the Republican party talking points being circulated in Washington:
"This is the Democrats' first opportunity to pay off organised labour after the election. This is a precursor to card-check and other items. Republicans should stand firm and take their first shot against organised labour, instead of taking their first blow from it."
The memo avoids addressing the millions of jobs the UAW (and the companies) say will be lost if the money is not forthcoming - but the union is in the spotlight now and things are not going to be pretty.
Meanwhile, this is fascinating and just a bit depressing, surely?
And anyone wondering what the serious questions are would do well to consider this pointed, yet reasonable, piece.
Hello, I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~41~RS~)
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Uh, Justin, you sure that's from the Republicans? Why would any American use the spellings "labour" and "organised"? Those and the reference to "organised labour" instead of "unions" makes me suspicious.
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No, the Ben Smith piece is not "depressing." Why would it be?
Obama has said all that he needs to say about the Blagojevich case. It is "inappropriate" for him discuss it further, in my view, and he needn't accept any questions on it.
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Re: the politico story
It's extremely difficult to stop moderation abuse by users, which is why sites with the most successful comment systems use point schemes. Users set a point threshold (view only comments with score 5 and up, etc), so the higher the number of points a comment gets, the more people can see it. If each user only has one point per comment, they are limited in their ability to hide comments from others.
When you allow a single user to 'disappear' a comment, you make it all too easy to get rid of any statement which goes against the mob mentality.
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The Republicans hate Unions so much until they are willing to see the US go down pulling the rest of the world's economies with it. These Dixiecrats still live is a Slavetoracy which see labor as just that. It does not stop to think that as the slogan goes: Unions gave us the weekend.
When they see a working person, they see a slave. In their weird imaginations one should work like a beast with no hopes of bettering one's condition or one's family's.
Republicans, the Victorian age is over. And you lost.
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4 marygrav:
I've posted against the GOP many times in many different forums, but even I think that this is going too far. Do you have any evidence to back your statement?
Please understand, I voted Democratic ever since I began voting in the first place a few years ago. While I know for a fact that the Bush family will do whatever they can to strike down unions and intellectuals to promote their own power, I have never seen them act like what you propose, and the Bush family is one of the most extreme of the genre.
As a side note, I heard that Jeb Bush intends to run soon, possibly for Senate. I hope the man loses, unless I discover he opposes the policies his family endorses.
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The union package for the three companies involved in the bailout is seriously bloated. The average automotive employee gets about $75 an hour (including benefits). That is well above what other car companies pay. (It is also above what policemen, firemen and teachers get.)
It is not a question of being for or against unions. But when union scale contributes to the failure of an industry, its role has to be reassessed.
Many people favor bankruptcy because the slate is wiped clean. A restructuring would entail new union contracts, the former having been nullfied.
I am against the bailout, unless the UAW takes a serious cut in union wages.
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further to #6.
That means that the average automotive employee is costing the companies $156,000 per year. I think I will apply for a job there.
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I grew up in Detroit in the 50s and 60s. I remember when the first Japanese cars were sold in the US. Detroit laughed at them. When they started eating into Detroit's market, the reaction of auto workers was to vandalize Japanese cars and question the patriotism of anyone who bought them. At the same time, assembly line workers were sabotaging the cars they were building. And the UAW has been very reluctant to give up its very cushy pension and health-care deals at a time when the rest of the American working population has seen their benefits diminish.
Detroit is oriented towards big gas-guzzling cars because they have a higher profit margin than efficient subcompacts. People will pay more on a percentage basis for the SUV image or an over-the-top minivan than for a nice, fuel-efficient car. When I bought my first new car in 1979, it was a Dodge Omni (for non-Americans, a small subcompact). I thought I was supporting Chrysler, which was in financial trouble at the time. The auto dealer treated me like a second-class citizen for buying it. And the car was junk. So the next car I bought was a Toyota.
So both labor and management are to blame for the mess the auto industry is in, and they both need to make sacrifices to rescue their companies.
But the auto industry--both the Detroit three and their suppliers--are a huge section of American industry. If the Detroit automakers go under, the impact on the already-shaky economy will be devastating. The companies need to restructure and the unions need to negotiate contracts that reflect the economic realities, but to try to break the unions (as conservatives want) or the management (as liberals want) would be the ultimate Pyrrhic victory.
And I hope it's not lost on people that if the US had adopted a European style universal pension and health care system 50 years ago, much of the financial burden on the auto industry wouldn't exist today.
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The fact that Republican senators oppose giving low interest loans to GM and Chrysler, and refuse to consider such loans without major concessions from the UAW union should not surprise anyone.
Anti-union sentiment has been a centerpiece of the GOP for decades and they are not going to let a chance to destroy one of the most successful unions pass them by.
Unfortunately, the UAW has, indeed, negotiated contracts with benefit packages that are unsustainable and are a major factor in the problems the auto makers are having. The concessions they agreed to last year apply only to new workers hired in 2009 and beyond, it does not change "legacy" benefits which happens to be part of the problem. Additional concessions are needed, but the draconian proposals from the GOP should be ignored.
It is interesting that the same people that become enraged when a union worker makes a decent middle class salary don't bat an eye when a CEO in charge of troubled corporations make over $20 million a year. Perhaps some of those multi-millionaires should consider emulating the guy that agreed to work for $1 next year.
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Hello, Mary:
I'm a union member.
I'm a Southerner.
I'm a Republican.
I'm a union member out of necessity, not because my union has done much to make life better for the membership, or serve its industry well. It's useless, but it won't go away. My acquaintances in the UAW report much the same, knowing that their organization has done much to cripple their industry. But, just like The Transition's website referenced above, questions are definitely unwelcome.
I'm a Southerner by birth, and returned by choice, having seen other parts of the world.
No, we don't practice slavery, or view people who work as slaves. We wear shoes, read and write English, and generally dislike unions because they don't serve the membership, and they hurt the firms into which they imbed themselves. The Southern, non-union auto plants have generally thrived, as have their workers and communities. (It drives the UAW and their allies in Congress over the edge every time it's mentioned. They'd just rather not hear about it--flag those offensive questions!)
I'm a Republican, more reluctantly these days than before, but still registered that way with the county election commission.
Given the Democrat Party's current enthusiastic support of statism in all arenas of life, its past record of crafting such happy things as Jim Crow laws, and the continued evidence of rampant corruption(about which questions can't be asked), I'll probably keep my registration there.
So, to the bailout:
It looks like Ford will weather the storm. GM and Chrysler have the same tools to reorganize that Delta Airlines and other firms, large and small, have used: Chapter 11 reorganization. The sooner they file the paperwork, the quicker the recovery begins.
The UAW fears this most of all, because they know that the judge can't be bought off like a politician, and that their decades of extortion-by-contract will be brought to a halt. GM and Chrysler have gone bust. It's time for them to reorganize under the law, not under a political 'Car-Tzar', acting as a Politburo member.
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Ref 6
According to recent reports the $75 an hour figure is inaccurate. Apparently some people added all the UNFUNDED pension and healthcare liabilities, divided that figure by the number of employees and retirees, added their actual salaries and came up with that outrageous figure.
It would be nice to know what their actual hourly salary is, without distortions from the right or left. It is evident, however, that the "legacy" benefit package they negotiate is disproportionate with what employees doing similar work at TOYOTA, Honda, and Nissan plants in the USA are getting. Clearly, something has to give.
Unfortunately, the problem the automakers are having will not be solved by Union concessions, the problem is that people are not buying. The quality of American cars has improved substantially in recent years, they are making several fuel efficient models, and are making a few hybrids. Again, the problem is that people are not buying and they are so deep in debt they can not meet their debt obligations.
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re. 6. allmymarbles:
The problem with bankruptcy is that companies need a revenue stream to stay in business while they are going through restructuring. That poses a problem when the manufactured product is going to need continued maintenance and repair. Most other manufactured items are either cheap enough to dispose of if you have problems or durable enough not to need maintenance. So consumers wouldn't worry as much about buying a lamp or a toaster from a company going through the bankruptcy process. Would you buy a car from a bankrupt American company if there were those nice Japanese and German cars also available? A car is a long-term investment. You want to be assured that replacement parts will continue to be manufactured and that you will be able to get the thing repaired in 5 years.
It's not just the car companies themselves. Today, many of the parts are made by suppliers, many of whom make parts for more than one auto company. They will go out of business if one of the big auto manufacturers closes. Not many manufacturing companies could withstand a 30 percent drop in sales. You won't be able to buy parts. That affects not just new cars, but also cars already on the road. People need to think this through carefully and not act on ideology.
If it weren't for the domino effect, I would agree that bankruptcy would be the way to solve the problem. Both of the major companies where I live now have gone through bankruptcy and although it was hard on the local economy, they are coming out of it now and the city might recover. But with possibilities I've outlined, I don't think the country can risk the auto companies going under. My region of the country would be absolutely devastated. It would be like Zimbabwe with snow.
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8, timohio.
You grew up in Detroit. I grew up on the east coast. In the 50's and 60's it wasn't Japanese cars that were seen, but good European ones. Detroit laughed at those too. I would like to say it serves Detroit right for foisting junk on us for so long, but I think of the people who will be hurt by the loss of the industry.
Nonetheless, I stand (as a independent) with the Republicans on this issue. Cut union wages and benefits or go bankrupt.
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Re #6, allmymarbles,
I had read on one of the other threads that the $70-something number was misleading, so I did a few minutes of research on the 'net and ran into a few sources that pointed out that the actual take home pay of a UAW worker is $27 an hour, which is only $2-3 higher than at Toyota. Adding in each current worker's benefits still, supposedly, does not add up to $75 an hour. However, if you figure in the costs of benefits being received by all retired workers and this odd lay-off benefit, then average it out among current employees, you get the figure in the $70 range. Toyota has less of a burden in that its workers make somewhat less but also in that they have a lot less retirees to take care of. I find the Republican call to reduce Big Three labor costs to competitor levels to be somewhat unrealistic, unless we want to stick it to the retirees.
I went to a UAW website and found info on their healthcare plan. It doesn't sound outrageous, for what that's worth.
Some have argued that even if the workers are only making $25-27 an hour it is too much for unskilled labor that a trained monkey could accomplish. I find this also somewhat dubious. If it was that simple, and the jobs really are so unskilled, why not let the Union strike and bring in non-union workers? Would labor laws in the affected states not allow this?
Beyond that, I am perplexed by what little information I can find on the 95% lay-off benefit. Sounds too good to be true, but the UAW has offered that up on the chopping block, if news articles have it right.
In general, however, the demonizing of the UAW is having the opposite effect on my perceptions.
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When this is all over and the damage has been done, we only need to remember three words:
Republicans Did This.
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11, Dominick.
I looked up the pay scale for the Ford Motor Company. It appears to average about $1,000 a week (exclusive of benefits). Since this is a new listing on the internet, it is possible that some of the higher-paying factory positions are left out, for political reasons. Do I sound paranoid? That's is what following politics and big business does to you.
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11 - Dominick is right
the *cost* per employee for the big 3 is about $75/hour if you include *all* the 'legacy costs' of every retiree pension and medical benefit etc.
that has almost nothing to do with employee *pay* and almost everything to do with other costs that the US car companies did not fully fund in the past, instead they planned on an expanding and somewhat protected market, among other factors.
With union agreements already in place, that number for the big 3 will go down below $50/hour by 2011, essentially the same as the cost per employee for the 'transplant' foreign car company factories that are located in the USA.
As the transplant factories reach the point of a retiring workforce, their costs will begin to rise, too, but not to the $75/hour level that reflects the present 'hump' the big 3 must survive before they benefit from already negotiated union changes.
The unions have made big concessions in recent years for the big 3 and starting wages for example are cut substantially.
I am neither adamantly pro or anti union, the $75/hour hump reflects the cost of pro-union contracts negotiated in a protected market, coupled with paying now lack of funding of those historical costs by the carmakers.
I just heard this discussed at length on multi part NPR series, so I know the $75/hr number is a misleading statistic - it does NOT reflect pay or current benefits as much as historical benefits.
Others may bring up the 'job pool', which affects about 3,000 out of the (1.5 million? 2million?) UAW workers. It is actually a Japanese employment security concept adopted in older USA union contracts, and probably won't survive long... 0.1% workforce retention is a non-issue in this big picture, too, despite the sound bites.
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15, just.
It was Clinton and deregulation that produced the Wall Street bubble. The Iraq War aggravated a problem that already existed. I am no fan of Bush, but this financial crises predated him.
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4 Marygrav
Beautiful.
Glad to see your post.
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I should add that anyone who wants to second guess factory labor rates might change perspective if they worked in one for a month first... Even with OSHA (undercut by current administration) they remain dangerous environments, the work is physically demanding, and there is growing technical involvement (in other words, almost constant training, not monkey-work) with just about every step in the process...
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5 jeebers
have you seen "the yes men" comical but has a point.
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6 marbles .
I am not sure if that figure quoted is all it seems.
this was pointed out to Guns earlier.
humour has it that the "wages" at 75 an hour is taking the total employee cost of the company and dividing the total between the number of employees now working.
those companies that have the higher packages also have a higher number of retired people who are not classified as employees now working.
those are the workers that are now retired and probably would oppose all I would support ,normally.In this case it is in their interests but not mine if people take that into account.
Thanks to the miracle of modern science we have increased life spans and now those retired people are seeking the medical care they had in a deal negotiated as Marygrav noted earlier at a time when American workers were getting a fairer deal.
That contract with the bigger population base has been eroded for years as well as allowed to be corrupted.
But it would be throwing the baby out with the bath water to get rid of them.
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I just goggled "average wage GM "and there is a discussion comment on reddit that is a little crude and heartfelt but makes this point
"Many make $30some an hour, and at times can pick up quite a bit of overtime at $45 an hour. Mark them down as grossing $80k a year, if you like."
which I think is probably more realistic .
It goes on to say that" boring mindless repetitive work is still work" then throws in an "elitist expletive"
which is essentially true.
Other poster have pointed out the long list of people that charge 60-70 an hour for their services and there are the obvious professions that charge way more than that .
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8 Ohio Tim at it again.
making all that sense.
I would agree .
with the above taken into consideration.
The whole direction has been appalling with the exceptions of the vehicles designed to meet the California market when them lefties as others would call them mandated zero emissions.(sorry that was repealed) The union folk if they resisted bringing new more efficient cars to the market should be penalised . However if it is the management and the engineers that designed rubbish and pushed gas guzzlers then it is them that should pay the price.
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20
those disparaging remarks i made about the workers abilities were not expressing my own view.
Just because someone who sees the truth you wrote could see offence there.
good on ya
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re. 13. allmymarbles:
"Cut union wages and benefits or go bankrupt."
In simple fairness, there needs to be an equivalent cut in wages and benefits for management too. Some of those people (and not just the CEOs) have been raking in big money with stock options and cushy retirements for years while their companies have been going under. And the corporate managers in this country seem to think they deserve bonuses whether their companies thrive or fail. They live like lords (apologies to the British upper chamber) and are out of touch.
I remember after one role-playing exercise in a political science class long ago that a student objected that we all knew it was a game; surely real diplomats take things more seriously? The teacher responded that after a while the real diplomats seem to forget that it's not a game for them. Perhaps corporate managers fall into the same trap.
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If an auto worker like Ford wouldn't have hired mobster thugs in the 30's to push around their employees than there would have been no need for unions. But, some companies don't get it. Why are the republicans attacking the blue collar workers? The figure of 71$ an hour is inflated, but you know what's really inflated? The fact the head of GM makes like 28 million a year and took millions in bonuses even though he knew his company was doing poorly. (This was reported on NPR news last week).
The fact of the matter is, these companies were managed poorly, their product sucks, it sucks I own a Chevy and it sucks, their management is over paid, they outsource everything to avoid working with their unions, did I mention their product sucks? Their ideas are out dated, their cars are gas guzzling machines and they have no idea what they are doing anymore. This isn't the unions fault. If auto workers felt like they no longer needed their union, they would vote to no longer be unionized. They have a these unions in place for decades and now only now they are having these issues?
I am so tired of republicans attacking the auto workers on the assembly line. The problem is management; throw their butts out on the street. All the republicans that are fighting against this bail out have foreign car maker plants in their states and they are looking out for. Does anyone else think it’s ridiculous that our government is telling these auto assembly workers that they make too much money and that they take home $71.00 an hour? I bet they sure don’t feel like they take home that much, because they don’t. Republicans would love to import foreign work that is cheaper without union and leave our union workers with out a job; all in the interest of the free market. They say their interest is in their tax payers but it’s not. If it were, they wouldn’t give so many tax breaks to the foreign car companies; that cost us too. Another policy for big business; surprise, how very American of us. Give them the money already.
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And I should add that I have every confidence that American workers can build a car just as well as Japanese or German workers. Many of the Hondas and Toyotas sold in the US are actually assembled in the US with a high percentage of US parts content.
And American engineers can design cars that are as good as Japanese or German cars.
The problem has been that management watches the profit margin and dictates what gets built and where the money get spent: research and design or advertising.
On a lighter note, I remember seeing the Star Wars exhibition in Toledo a few years ago. There was a large model of the Millenium Falcon that had been used in the production of the first three films. On its nose, so small that it never would have been visible in the films, was a Champion Spark Plugs decal. That amused the Toledo audience, since Champion was a Toledo company. Local parts content.
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17. At 00:02am on 12 Dec 2008, bluejay60:
Thank for for poiting that out, what you heard on NPR about the pay being misleading. I heard that too but I couldn't remember what the figures were that were added in that shouldn't have been. Anyway I know it's not true.
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Having grown up in a town whose industries are dominated by unions I've seen first hand the corrupting influence of unions on industry.
Unions make industry less efficient by mandating what the employer must pay and keeps under performing workers in a job that they should have been fired from several times over. The less efficient industry does not grow and does not create more jobs for a growing work force. Unions also hold up the old boy network where new job openings go to a nephew or the child of a friend rather than the most qualified applicant.
The American Auto makers kept on building big flashy gas guzzelers long after the market turned away from that. They deserve to fail for that huge blunder.
Organized labor is the root of socialism; Socialist ideals espoused by the unions attract support from progressives and draws out opposition from conservatives.
Republicans (and some democrats) are opposing the big 3 bail-out not because they want to enslave the auto workers, but because their constituents are telling them:
Why should we pay more taxes to bail out a huge mismanaged company when little guys me don't get a bail out. Any these companies aren't even building anything I want to buy, and by their own admision won't be doing so for another three years.
Let the big three go bust. Maybe then some billionaires can buy them up and use their facilities and trimmer work force to build the zero emmision car of the future, and make lots of money taking back the domestic market and increasing their share of the foreign markets as well.
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Justin.....
i think that there have had problems between republicans and unions; over the past many years....
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I am proud that some in the Senate are taking in the parasitic UAW.
One of the benfits of bankrupcy is eliminating unprofitable auto lines, but another is breaking the union contracts.
There is no evidence that Unions benfit the economy, they are acharic group that we would be well rid of.
Card checks are affront to democracy since most workers know the fat cats in the Unions don't represent their interests.
Union thugary is only slightly better than organized crime
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There's been a lot wrong with Detroit for some
time now. Both labor and management are at
fault. I could make a list, but then the BBC might
run out of disk space.
Chapter 11 is really the solution to the problem.
If some sort of bailout is worked out, it will
have to involve provisions which approximate
bankruptcy.
Loaning the company money is one of the worst
solutions to the problem, because the company
is then saddled by debt, as opposed to being
financed by equity.
In order to succeed, one has to first admit failure.
Management appears to be suddenly more humble;
labor is not. The unions are now "demanding"
a seat on the board of directors, and they haven't
explained why UAW plants have a 10-12%
absenteeism rate, while the foreign-run plants
have a 2% rate.
I heard from one caller on c-span the other day who
worked for 30 years at a Fisher plant as a
shift supervisor that they frequently had trouble
keeping the line running on Mondays as
a result.
If these workers don't show up for work, why
should I show up in the showroom?
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The Senate, wisely, said 'no' to the auto industry loan scheme.
The vote was not particularly close, with a number of abstentions. 10 Republicans voted for it, but the Dems could not hold their 50 together to push it over the hedge.
The sentiment arriving at Senatorial offices from the public around the country was significantly against the scheme, and after the fiasco of the Treasury TARP, I think the Senators had no more stomach for another boondoggle.
GM finally got around to engaging a law firm to handle the impending bankruptcy filing, it was announced today. This only demonstrates further just how myopic the GM board and management is, and continues to be. They were on the way to bankruptcy court months ago, and decided rather to play 'chicken' with the taxpayers, betting that they could extort operating capital from the Congress.
Now, the Senators on the losing side of tonight's vote want Henry Paulson to throw several billions of the money recently printed under the TARP program at the auto industry.
No mention of the fact that Treasury can't account for where the first 300 billion or so ended up, or the effect it has (or hasn't) had on the banking system or the economy.
Enough already--time for Chapter 11.
I propose we teach GM's management and unions a new song to sing on the way to the factory, as they contemplate how all this happened, and what they might do to right the ship in the future.
Hi ho, hi ho, it's off to court we go!
Let lawyers feed, car dealers bleed;
Hi ho, hi ho, hi ho, hi ho!
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"millions of job" in the card-industry? I thought Americans don't buy american cars anymore
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I'm worried. Very worried.
I know that the big 3 have made monster mistakes, and that the unions have gotten so protective that they're an impediment to manufacturing these days. BUT, I fear for what's about to happen when they go under and the rest of the economy reacts. I worry, not for the state of American business, but for the average joe that depends on the big 3 even in an indirect basis for survival.
I don't pretend to know the solution here. I was against the banks etc getting a bailout because of their sheer greed and reportedly giving the govt money as bonuses to their CEO's and shareholders instead of using it properly. I am against the big 3 because of their destructive nature of their greed.
But I am worried for the state of the workers and everyone else that depends on Detroit. I don't think bankruptcy will be as rosy a scenario as some here paint it.
I am really worried for all of us, and I wonder what the ripples will do to the rest of the planet's economy. Remember, everything the USA does impacts the globe, like a giant rolling over in it's sleep we can crush their economies accidentally.
I am really worried for us all....
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As a new member, I will humbly post my opinion. Shouldn't the CEO's take a pay cut?
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There seem to be two ideological viewpoints here:
one gleeful, in a dark-side-of-Reagan way, that we can finally stick it to the unions (and who cares if unemployment goes over 10% as GM and its supplier network fold, it's worth it to kick every current and former UAW employee)...
the other rekindling some protectionist or patriotic sentiments that hark back to what I recall growing up in the 1970s-80s; with thoughts about the impact of a GM chapter 11 to the economy, or the old question "a car is a man-month of work, who do you want to get paid for that" (implying "buy American"), etc.
The $14 billion part 1 of Detroit bail-out is peanuts (if billions can ever be peanuts) compared to the $700 billion TARP. And the two are unrelated, one relates to a tangible product made in factories and well over a million middle class taxpayers, the other, it seems, to a world filled with arcane paper schemes that go far beyond "It's a Wonderful Life" credit availability.
Are those who are so indignant about $14 billion for Detroit equally driven to punish or to clean up Wall Street?
Is laughing at the failure of GM a massive case of "cutting off one's nose to spite one's face"?
Is punishing GM with congressional delay and posturing over a bail-out because of TARP regret a terrible case of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater?"
Is not looking at today's quality surveys so that 1970s-80s perceptions still cling and we say that "Detroit makes junk" and feeling Detroit and / or the UAW should be punished a liberal anti-gas guzzler conceit, or a conservative anti-union conceit?
Honda and GM strike me as the two most technically innovative car companies today.
Honda for a reliable and efficient vehicle product line from generators to motorcycles to trucks, and diverse R&D including genreations of Asimo robots (and a budget-priced, superefficient corporate jet that may just have arrived at the wrong time).
GM for a history of innovation in transmissions, the Tucker-like Corvair, the SunRaycer, the EV-1, the current range of 30 mpg sedans, a good full-size pickup, etc. I said technically innovative, not visionary. Some of the same praise can be aimed at Dodge and the old slant six, the powerwagon, the minivan concept, etc., or Ford and the Escape hybrid.
But Detroit lobbied hard against CAFE ignoring the inexorable rise in oil costs. GM's CEO publically ridiculed some of his own models. Detroit dodged head-tohead competition with Japan and Europe, and lost some market share with each twist until now Korea and soon China are moving in. Gas-guzzler profits over-rode vision or a long term plan. Chrysler went from Iacocca recovery K-cars and the first minivan to a low-MPG fleet laden with SUVs.
We colluded in these poor management decisions. Our poor roads reflect the lack of will to raise the tiny Federal 18 cent per gallon gas tax, even to match inflation. Reagan's transportation secretary was full of 'bigger cars are a 2nd amendment right' safety canards. We rebelled against speed limits as we piled up a trade deficit with oil imports (55 or even a nationwide 65 mph are far better than the World War II 35 mph "victory speed" limit and gas rationing). Both sides of the aisle let Detroit off the hook for CAFE so we could keep a semi-protected market for truck-based SUVs. The tax cuts of 3 or 4 years ago led a number of small business people who never leave pavement on the job to buy and write down Hummers that were advertised with the truck tax exemption.
What is the true cost of a Detroit bankruptcy? Before we cook GM's and Detroit's goose, let's consider that it still lays eggs for perhaps a million retirees and a couple of million working taxpayers.
I don't see how sticking it to Detroit now is sure to help the rest of us, or has anything to do with giving 50 times as much money to Wall Street a month ago.
Unions see the writing on the wall and will make more concessions than the ones already in place, which will change Detroit numbers for the better as they phase in. It seems better to negotiate a few more concessions - not squeeze the life out of Detroit or the UAW - and keep those taxpayers working, and supporting their local economies, if there is any way.
Somebody already mentioned the 5-day work week, and while I've never joined a union, let me add that I'm grateful to the Australian workers movement for the 8-hour workday too, even though I usually put in longer hours.
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The latest news, according to CNN, is that the
automakers will still get some kind of bridge loan
from the TARP fund, anyway.
Hopefully, this will only happen if GM and Chrysler
enter bankruptcy as some kind of loan guarantee
program.
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This is the most obvious difference I see between the mentality in the US and in Europe.
The example here is all the car factories in the southern US where the workers are paid less and given fewer benefits than workers at the factories in Michigan. Everyone is saying Detroit cannot survive because labour costs are so much higher than the competition.
In the US everyone questions why workers in Michigan earn more than those doing the same work in Alabama or Tenessee. So they call for workers in Michigan to lower their wages and benefits so they can compete with the competition.
In Europe they would ask why the workers in Alabama and Tenessee arent earning the same as those in Michigan. Then they would call for Tenessee and Alabama to increase their wages and benefits so that the workers are on the same level as those in Michigan.
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#27 ladycm
Agreed. People blinded by ideology are trying to shift the blame on the unions. These union members asked for a pay rise and they got it. Damn them! All this is a fudge: people are not buying their cars. As you say their product sucks. Car workers being paid minimum wage is not going to change that. I'm very much sure that American car workers can make cars just as good as anybody else. Management give them the designs and they make the cars. If there's anyone to blame it's the management.
Why has the Senate decided to have a backbone now on the issue of bail-outs. I don't remember them telling the bankers to get a pay cut or they won't get any bail-out cash. Moreover, isn't it none of their business how much the car companies decide to pay their staff?
Anyway, what idiots vote for a reduction of their GDP by 4%!! A reduction of 1% is bad enough (which the UK expects), but 4%!! My word. And your elected officials voted for that!
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Posting on the BBC is like trying to bet on the Cardinals. Is it worth it?
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I don't think the government sohuld be financing an relatively uncompetetive industry. Import cars, they will probably be better. Spend that money on getting the workers retrained into something the US has a comparative advantage in (Go Ricardo Go!!)
Peace
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Please excuse my poor grammar and spelling in my previous post!
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ref #38 and 40
Many of us who are against the auto bailout were also against the financial bailout.
To #40
Would the European questioner ask are the Michigan workers overpaid? Also would they accept that the bif 3 have to contrivbute to a fund that pays unemployed workers 95% of thier salary?
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Personally, I don't see what all the fuss is about.
I think that the numbers being quoted regarding job losses etc. are shocking because they are being lumped together as the "Big Three". When one considers the number of jobs and retirement funds affected by the current economic meltdown outside the Auto industry there is no reason to treat the industry as a special case. It's just more highly visible.
Considering that the car market pie is shrinking, the job losses are a fact of life regardless of whether they affect the Big Three or any of the other "foreign" brands being manufactured on American soil which also employ americans and use american dealers and parts suppliers. Keeping GM, Chev or Ford afloat will not sell more cars or increase the market, it will just dilute it at the expense of the other manufacturers.
I sense that ego and national pride are more at stake here than economics.
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46, Sorry, I meant Chrysler, not Chev!
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#8 TimOhio
And I hope it's not lost on people that if the US had adopted a European style universal pension and health care system 50 years ago, much of the financial burden on the auto industry wouldn't exist today.
Totally agree. Nothing more to add other than to repeat your comment.
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#8, #38, #40 - very insightful comments that help to fill out the big picture.
Notice from comments of others, the different , fascinating (cultural?) perspective on unions.
Just as the different (right of centre)perspective on tax - almost a "why do I pay tax"/"socialism" view that's different from the view of a society.
Interesting.
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Ref 35
"millions of job" in the card-industry? I thought Americans don't buy american cars anymore"
About half the vehicles in the USA are American, and that does not include Japanese vehicles assembled in the USA.
The problem with our auto industry has nothing to do with price, reliability, or even fuel efficiency (we make more than just Hummers and Escalades). The problem is that credit has dried up and people can not afford to buy new vehicles, houses, or anything else. Companies sitting on huge inventories are bound to go broke, regardless of management and Union concessions.
CEOs have been making obscene salaries, the Unions have negotiated unsustainable benefit packages that must be changed, the fancy office buildings and corporate jets should be replaced with more modest means to reduce cost, and a new business model must be designed, but all that will not solve the problem we are facing.
The solution may be to give incentives to consumers - plus a line of credit - to entice us to buy American. A plan that benefits taxpayers as well as corporate America would sell a lot easier than handouts to morons without a vision, Then again, that worked exceptionally well for our financial institutions and beloved insurance companies...
I think our Republican friends are walking a tight rope on this issue. When the American public learns that the $75 an hour wages were a ruse designed to break the Unions, and see an additional 2 or 3 million Americans join the ranks of the unemployed people are not going to be kind to those that objected to keeping what little is left of our industry alive.
Bear in mind that the impact of an auto industry collapse encompasses more than just workers at the plants, suppliers, and dealers; it also includes hundreds of small towns and cities that depend on those workers to survive. Letting the auto industry collapse could very well accelerate our economic demise and make a recovery a very long and arduous task, not too dissimilar from what happened 8 decades ago.
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If I disagree with the unions it is because of what I have seen.
The unions got my father fired and made him train his under-qualified replacement which was a union member (surprise!). When I had to cross the picket line to get a ride home after school, I heard them threaten his life and I seem to remember them throwing rocks. The company (McDonald Douglas) folded soon after.
At a movie set the unions got upset when I tried to help one of the crew. I was sitting in the bleachers when someone an arms length away from me was struggling with a task I could assist with. According to the union rules, I was stealing another mans job.
Union workers objected to my attempt to earn money as construction subcontractor. I remember spending the night picking the dried concrete from my wounds.
In the city I lived in I saw both union and non-union workers building towers. The union workers spent their time doing trivial stuff like putting-up light-poles in the middle of the foundation and tearing them down in a couple of days. But next door the non-union workers got the work done. I heard (but don't know for sure) that this was a part of the contract. The developer finally gave up, leaving a huge empty lot where local businesses were demolished. At least they left the non-union workers alone this time.
Unions have proven they are an enemy and should be attacked whenever possible. Let's sic Bush on them.
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Ref 8
"...if the US had adopted a European style universal pension and health care system 50 years ago, much of the financial burden on the auto industry wouldn't exist today."
A universal pension and health care system would, indeed, reduce our operating costs and make our industry more competitive. Unfortunately, that's not enough to save our industry which is currently in dire straits as a result of unsustainable debt, inability to move their inventories, and inability to meet their financial obligations. As I said in a previous post, incentives are needed to make consumers buy American.
From a macro perspective our problem is that we are broke. The amount of debt accumulated at all levels (federal, state and local governments, corporations, and personal) is simply unsustainable. To make matters worse, the only solution to get us out of the fiscal and economic mess we are in is to spend more borrowed money which will eventually make the situation worse and would lead to a total collapse of our economic system.
Sadly, the ones that will pay the consequences for the largesse and fiscal irresponsibility of our generation will not be us, but our children and grandchildren.
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#18 AllMyMarbles:
No. Responsibility rests with unthinking GOP adherence to a shallow and rejected ideology, with a culture of Republican greed and corruption, to deliberate confusion of domineeering corporate oligarchies with the free market, with the perverted social Darwinism that holds that those who lose in a rigged game are morally unfit.
More is going on here than a rejection of Republican politics. We've decided that not only are GOP politics bad for us, we've decided that Republicans are bad for us. We don't want to be like them.
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Deal fell through,.. big whoop. Face it, we don't need a 'national auto industry' nor a 'national health care industry' nor a 'national workers union' all mandated and overseen by elected officials who 'sell' the "Czar" post to the most deserving (read highest bidder) contributer to their campaign or party or special interest.
Next they'll be taxing us every time we eat beef due to flatuance,..
Federal Government,.. Interstate commerce, roads and rail, tobacco and firearms, borders and immigration... pretty much covers the job,(not public "Service" when the pay equals that of most corporations and unending perks), say twenty five thousand a year for the bottom and fifty thousand for the top postition,.. then call it for the "Public Good and a Service to the Country"
Ain't just words, ain't just speeches
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"...if the US had adopted a European style universal pension and health care system 50 years ago, much of the financial burden on the auto industry wouldn't exist today."
Its called Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid.....
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"No. Responsibility rests with unthinking GOP adherence to a shallow and rejected ideology, with a culture of Republican greed and corruption, to deliberate confusion of domineeering corporate oligarchies with the free market, with the perverted social Darwinism that holds that those who lose in a rigged game are morally unfit."
And the Democrats are,.. messiahs?
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I think maybe the reason why they bailed out the banks is that their failure would also affect the lawmakers themselves. The reason they didn't want to bail out the auto industry? It doesn't affect millionaires. Bear in mind that the fastest way to get rich in the USA is to be elected a member of Congress or the House.
I dunno, that may be too simplistic, but it does seem that when their hides are on the line the US Congress moves a lot faster.
Right now, I'm more worried about everybody who ISN'T a millionaire, as in the majority of the planet. I think perhaps this concern is the reason why the USA voted overwhelmingly Democrat this time around. I wonder if that trend will continue in the years ahead?
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How to split the pie among population? Some forthright folk maintain that that is the essence of politics.
To the relations of USA unions and management: How should income be divided among capital, labor and management? How is a "just share" to be determined? What to do when income is negative?
A more encompassing question: in a society, are benefits to be distributed only to the productive? To the mentally and physically handicapped?
Does being a citizen constitute a sufficient entitlement to a share? Are all humans on the planet entitled to a share?
Will the USA have a leader who approaches daily politics in such a context?
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In response to #8 and 52:
'...if the US has adopted a European style universal pension and healthcare system 50 years ago, much of the financial burden on the auto industry wouldnt exist today'
This is true, but what most Americans fail to realise is that universal pension and healthcare systems function by increasing the employer and employee contribution costs.
So when people complain that the workers in Detroit cost the car companies too much, they have to realise that with a universal system it will spread the costs to everyone, but the money still has to come from somewhere.
So rather than GM paying $70/hour for a worker (salary plus benefits), maybe it will cost them $30/hour but the $40 difference will be made up by a restaurant in Louisville, a pilot in Houston, a logistics company in Augusta and a nurse in Boulder.
I personally think this is a good system, but the average American does not. That is the reason that the US did not adpot a universal pension and healthcare system 50 years ago and it is still the reason they wont do it anytime soon.
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The most amusing part of all this, is the fact that the Rethuglican leadership in the Senate, made their remarks about fiscal responsibility blah, blah, blah, with a straight face(!) -- after 8 years of running up trillions of dollars in debt . . . for the Obscene War for Corporate Welfare In Iraq.
We never heard the wails and moans from the Neocon(victs) about the billions in missing funds that mysteriously "disappeared" in Baghdad -- or the tens of thousands of rifles and other weapons that also evaporated -- all without explanation or concern!!! -- that we're now being subjected to (non-stop), by the shocked! and outraged! Guardians of THE Free Market Enterprise Ssystem, Defenders of the Constitution, and Proponents of All That Is Good and Decent About America Thank You Very Much.
Sens. Shelby, Sessions, DeMint, McConnell, et al, ad nauseum belong in a federal prison -- just look at where their states rank in quality of life issues: at or near the bottom.
And they're lecturing to everybody else about how people should choose to live!!!!??????
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According to some of the post mortem interviews a congressional compromise fell through because the UAW refuse to set a date to establish salary and benefits parity with foreign auto makers, with non-union workers, operating in the USA.
Considering the fact that the average UAW auto-worker salary is $29 an hour and their non-union counterparts are making an average of $26 I think it is fair to assume that salary was not a major impediment to finding a compromise. When we take into consideration the difference in cost of living between UAW living near large metropolitan areas in the Midwest, and non-union workers living in Tennessee and South Carolina, I would say the UAW are underpaid.
The real difference between these workers is in benefits. The UAW should make concessions, but I think it is important to bear in mind that no matter how many concessions they make that will not change the long term liability gap between companies that have been operating in the US for over a century and those that have been here for 25 years or less. Simply put, companies with a high pool of retirees have disbursement obligations that are much greater than those who barely have retirement expenditures. Short of hanging retirees out and dry, there are no easy solutions to this problem.
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#56 DougTexan:
Nope, the Dems aren't messiahs. Fortunately, they arent Republicans, either.
Republicans are a losing and dying breed, concentrated in the poorest, oldest, whitest, fattest, most uneducated and most rural parts of the country. The overwhelming majority of people under 40 are not Republicans. The GOP has no purpose other than to give the errant among us political cover for their bigotry and dogmatism.
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Ref 55
"Its called Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid....."
Doug, bear in mind that the benefits we receive from the US government agencies you mentioned would be rejected as inadequate by most industrialized nations.
It is also important to mention that in addition to fighting Unions, the GOP has tried repeatedly to destroy Social Security, MEDICARE and Medicaid, which they consider examples of evil socialism. One of the few exceptions was Ronald Reagan who referred to them as a "safety net".
Unfortunately, the ultra right wing has been so effective in demonizing universal pension and health care systems on ideological basis that a change that would strengthen our competitive posture is rejected outright.
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ref #57
I disagree with your premise. The Dems were voted in because it was percieved the Republicans were in power.
The Democrats in Congress got a free pass this time.
But I think the majority of Americans are against the auto bailout becuase they see a failing business and greed by both management and labor.
Explain to me why a controlled bankrupcy is not more beneficial and why someone who has no connection to the U.S auto industry should support it with a bailout?
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The banks were saved, not because after their mistakes they deserved it, but because the USA could not afford them to fail. The auto companies, having made cars no one wanted, don't deserve to be saved either; the only question is whether the USA can afford to let them fail. If it can, to hell with them; if it can't, pay up.
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It says something unpalatable about our value system when the problem seems to be that folk aren't buying cars.....We've got so efficient at bundling up the Earth's resources into 'irresistible' products that it seems we now have piles of the damned things that nobody wants (or really needs). Maybe it's a good time to stop producing them?
Ah, the Joys of Sales Resistance!
Meanwhile... we must remember that, for 80% of the Earth's folk, there's only 20% available to go around...
Peace and Needs before Wants
ed
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Corbly,
Watch it, boy! Nuthin' wrong with us rural folk! And isn't it a bit of an oxymoron to be 'concentrated' in a rural area?Peace and rurality
ed
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#64 MagicKirin:
>>"...it was percieved the Republicans were in power."
Perceived?
The GOP controlled Congress from 2000-2006, and effectively still control the Senate. The GOP controls the White House and the Supreme Court.
You may believe the lies you spew, but few of the rest of us do.
If, and it's a very big if, the American people are repudiating the auto loan because they are fed up with corporate greed, then you need to understand the reality that the American people see corporate greed as a hallmark principle of Republicanism.
The collapse of the Big 3 will trigger double-digit unemployment and sink the country further into the recession that is Bush's legacy. People will remember that Republicans did this to them.
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#67 Iglehart:
Look at the maps of the regions where McCain's polled more than Bush in 2004. It's exactly the territory I described.
And, yes, when I'm talking about areas that are strong GOP areas, then it makes perfect sense to use the word "concentrated."
No matter where they live, most people under 40 are not Republicans, and most people under 30 would be ashamed to be called a Republican. The sooner the party shrivels and dies, the better.
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Ref 66
"It says something unpalatable about our value system when the problem seems to be that folk aren't buying cars"
Ed, there is a difference between offering an opinion as to why the US auto industry is in trouble, and endorsing consumerism. In my case, I drive an 03 Honda Accord, have no plans to replace it any time soon, and have no use for any of the gadgets that people can't do without (iPODs, PS3s, Black Berries, plasma TVs, the latest cell phone, etc.)
Unfortunately, we are no longer the frugal society of yesteryear, and our interpretation of achieving happiness is now based on how much junk we can accumulate, preferably without having to pay for it.
Having said that, the fact remains that a large segment of our workforce depends on consumerism and credit, and without people willing to buy and spend beyond their means our fragile economic system will simply collapse.
Someone else suggested earlier that a market in "Interstate commerce, roads and rail, tobacco and firearms, borders and immigration... pretty much covers the job" and a remuneration scheme that would have made Marx and Lenin blush as a solution to our woes (perhaps I misunderstood what was being suggested), but if our goal is to preserve our capitalist system and the standard of living we enjoy we must be willing to bite the bullet and make sacrifices. Letting our industry disappear, after hearing our politicians decry our dependence on oil from countries that don't like us very much is the ultimate example of hypocrisy.
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Corbly,
And the same can be said of any culture which can only survive by manufacture, sale, obsolescence and burial of stuff we don't need. As Ed Abbey said long ago, "Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell."He also said "In a nation of sheep, one brave man forms a majority."
Baaaaaaah
ed
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Dominick,
So, even if it's broke (pun intended), destructive and unsustainable, we've gotta fix it?Where is that Einstein quotation when we need it?
Peace and new thinking
ed
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ref #68
Reality check for you.
the last two years the Dems controlled both houses.
Barry Frank blocked Fannie Mae reforms
Chris Dodd took sweatheart loan from Countrywide
You need to stop reading the Daily kos
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#65, Pansceptic, well said!
justcorbly, it seems to me that both parties have
drifted off to extremes. If you think that somehow
the Democrats have their pulse on anything, then
you're likely to be greatly disappointed in the years
ahead.
Personally, I believe that that government which
governs least, governs best. It's too bad that
neither party subscribes to this philosophy.
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Guns.
You're in good companyand, from Port Royal, Kentucky,Peace and good companyed
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Looks like the Bush Administration is going to use some of the remaining blank check issued to bail out out financial institutions to allow our auto industry to meet their debt obligations at the end of this month.
The intent, hopefully, is not to perpetuate the strategies and practices of a failed business model, but to find solutions to strengthen our industry, save jobs, and prevent our economy from total collapse before the next debt payments are due 3 months from now.
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Re: 54. DougTexan
Jeezus, man, did you read some of the thoughtful posts above (eg, TimOhio, bluejay60, DominicVila) before you came up with your judgement of 'big whoop'? How would you be feeling today if you lived in a city or part of the country where the auto industry is the major employer? And remember what's happening directly affects not only the 'labour aristocracy' everyone loves to hate, but all the people working in the parts manufacturers as well. Not to mention everyone else who provides goods and services in those communities.
So big whoop indeed.
Not that I'm picking on you (well OK, maybe just a little), but why is it that a working man would be happy to see other working people lose their hard won decent standard of pay, benefits, and working conditions?
And believe me, I'm not feeling particularly pro-Union today. In Ottawa we are dealing with a public transit strike on top of 35 cm. of snow. Not pretty (and Ed, don't say anything -- I can feel your schadenfreude vibe all the way across that gale tossed ocean).
Sometimes unions are grotesquely irrational, inefficient, and belligerent. But without them we'd none of us be enjoying our current standard of living.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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73. At 3:44pm on 12 Dec 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #68
Reality check for you.
the last two years the Dems controlled both houses."
Do they? So how come the currrent car rescue deal collapsed due to republican opposition?
This is "controlled" as in not "controlled".
Get in touch with reality before preaching to others.
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As much as I'm opposed to TARP, I can at least see that giving money to banks will achieve the objective of keeping credit flowing... It's understood that the fees from credit are bank's profits. While personally I think that this not a good solution, the bill did meet it's intended design.
Regarding the Auto Bailout, the Big 3 make a profit by selling cars. How does giving $15 billion to the Big 3 help them sell more cars?
It doesn't.
Chapter 11 is the way to go.
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Rs,
A statement of faith, rather than an observation of fact, I fear. Plenty of money has been thrown at the banks, and still no sign of credit flowing...Peace and realism
ed
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Schadenfreude? Me? Shurely you jest!
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All the focus is on UAW wage and benefit concessions. What concessions are the multiple layers of U.S. automotive management and executives offering to the deal? We are not hearing anything about their concessions. The management and executives are the ones behind the wheel of this big Sports Utility Vehicle that is speeding towards a deadly curve in the road.
Each layer of management and executive levels earns a higher salary and benefit package over the layer below them. What is the sum total of their salaries and benefits? What concessions are they offering for the economic health and well-being of their industry? They are the leaders of their industry. Are they leading by example?
There is much criticism of the UAW for seeking, and achieving higher wages and more benefits for their membership. When was the last time anyone (whether union or non-union, management or non-management) went to their boss and asked for a reduction in wages and benefits because they thought they were being paid too much?
Labor, management, and executives all need to consider how much money they will be paid when there is no company issuing them a paycheck.
The cap on an unemployment check in Michigan is $320 (USD) a week no matter if you are labor or management.
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Re: gunsandreligion
The latest news, according to CNN, is that the automakers will still get some kind of bridge loan from the TARP fund, anyway.
Hopefully, this will only happen if GM and Chrysler enter bankruptcy as some kind of loan guarantee program.
So if they are going to get it anyway, why not do it up front, and avoid a further erosion of public confidence in the product? Bankruptcy, as I think Dominic pointed out, it not going to sell cars.
Moreover, does Chapter 11 allow you to un-encumber assets already collateralized? That is, could it allow the gov't first crack at assets securing new debt in the event of company failure? I really doubt this . . . it would mean nobody would be willing to lend. Then you'd be stuck with the State as the only lender . . .
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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ref #78
Simple Simon I would never try to lecture you.
That would require a person with an open mind
You don't know what corrupt politicins Frank and Dodd are
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Just read that you are leaving your US posting ... before the bashers have their moment, I for one will miss your US bloggings. Thanks for them.
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#75 Ed Iglehart:
"That unlimited economic growth can be accomplished within limited space, with limited materials and limited intelligence, only shows the unlimited courage and self-confidence of these Great Minds."
Now you see I just don't believe that either space or resources are limited, perhaps it's simply the 'limited intelligence' that prevents us using the abundance of energy and material resources of our little solar system or perhaps its the pervasive doom mongering of so much of the media that's made us lower our horizons.
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29
I tell you guys stuff but I am a fool, now none of you say it but ,others do .
really how long have I been saying that this figure is just not true.
(first time I called it a lie.).
here's another thing I was discussing with Mdalerwill ,i think that was, if you give money to people to pay off mortgages the banks get their money and the people (?foolish spenders? ) get to stay in a home.
Now we got here from greed at all the "higher levels" then I hear on NPR yesterday that there is some Harvard lady that now runs this committee that would say the same thing and that the 15 % returns promised to mortgage backed securities were what led some to invest in basically people that can pay, until the interest rates go up.
as opposed to modest safe returns at 3% from a real mortgage .
Greedy rich people. not stupid overspending Fanny freddies.
All this problem is down to ONE cause.
GREED.
but the republicans want us to only bail out the greed they are associated with.Bankers.
Oh wait ,and them pesky Lawyers.
I'm going to go back to putting my head in the sand.
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30
"Unions make industry less efficient by mandating what the employer must pay and keeps under performing workers in a job that they should have been fired from several times over"
management makes industry less efficient by mandating what the bonus must pay and keeps under performing managers in a job that they should have been fired from several times over.
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The problem with the US car makers is less about how much workers are paid, it is more about the cars those employees produce.
Simply, the car manufacturers have been over-producing big trucks, big cars where Americans are buying smaller. Also to make cars, you must sell worldwide, the big trucks and cars of the Big US 3 are not appealing in Europe and Asia.
Certainly the wages of employees are good, but certainly not a $70 per hour figure. Typically, the average car employee in 2000-2002 brought in a gross income of around $45K per annum-yes, I was an accountant in Michigan then.
This figure of $45K average would include shift premiums, long-service etc. A good wage, but nowhere near $70 per hour. The highest earner I ever encountered was an engineer with a Masters degree, who grossed $100K per annum.
The work is in car production is staggered, you start off at the bottom and learn the production. Only then does your salary progress.
Certainly the wages are good but they are not exceptional. The salary compares to a night-shift forklift truck driver at Frito-Lay.
It shocks me that people feel qualified to make judgments about salaries when they do not reveal their own or have anything to compare salaries to. I am a CPA Accountant-I hold three degrees BA, BS and MA. My practice grosses $1million per annum.
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33 gnr
The unions are now "demanding"
a seat on the board of directors, and they haven't
explained why UAW plants have a 10-12%
absenteeism rate, while the foreign-run plants
have a 2% rate.
that does seem a little high , but then is it because union plants are in the cold north ,ie it may be true but is this taking all into account. as with the "wage" bill is there misdirection in this figure?
I assume absenteeism does not include people taking sick time that other companies would say "come in spread your germs".
After the 75$ figure I have a hard time believing many of the figures thrown out.
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27 well said.
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Scot,
Why am I not surprised? And what's your take on the first law of thermodynamics?Complain about this comment
38 a clear grasp of the situation there.
nice
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51 solidlysure
you should add
"I'm positive."
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in the case of the auto workers, the unions are a big part of the reason why these companies are not competetive. Or better yet the labor and pension agreements the have with the union. If any money is given to these companies by tax payers they have to agree to amend their existing agreements so that the companies can compete with the other giants in the industry. If not the company will be asking for more help in a few years.
The company is going bankrupt but to suggest that union make concessions in this difficult time is completely rejected by the UAW hence the jam. So i suppose losing the job completely is better than having the job pay a little less.
The same goes for the execs at hese companies and those on wall street, who after receiving govt. assistance is still trying to negotiate a bonus package for their sorry butts after running the company into the ground. It is obviously every man for themselves in this rat race. This is what is compounding the current economic crisis.
They will keep fighting until their is nothing left to fight for.
As for the politicians in washington, both Dems and Republicans , what a sorry bunch they are. Cannot make a decision when it really matters.
'Nero fiddled while rome burnt'.
DC is currently filled with Neros looking out for their special interests instead of the country.
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ed and Just
on the day that JF and 80% went the way of the mods there was an early diversionary tactic thrown in by said JF about how the top 10 fattest states were all republican.
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#90, happylaze, I have found some links to
support the absenteeism statistics.
They are here , here, and an editorial from Toledo here.
I could probably dig out a thousand more, but
all you have to do is to talk with anyone who
has worked in a UAW plant over the last 30
years or so. It's time for them to shape up.
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65. At 2:54pm on 12 Dec 2008, Pansceptic wrote:
The banks were saved, not because after their mistakes they deserved it, but because the USA could not afford them to fail. The auto companies, having made cars no one wanted, don't deserve to be saved either; the only question is whether the USA can afford to let them fail. If it can, to hell with them; if it can't, pay up.
It does not help me so stuff them.Bankers.
Not to be offensive but I suspect like many you have an interest in banks being saved so your savings are still there.
I say did you never hear of a mattress and why should I be forced to bail out the retirement plans of people I would hate if I met them.
People that have demanded that I be locked up because I am a pot head while they gambled the worlds future away.
So who exactly does the financial bailout help?
oldies that have not the physical strength to rebuild their savings at work, they worked all their lives to get there.
Well It don't effect me so WHY?
Unless you are willing to protect those that work I say stuff the retirees.
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re. 79. R-Snail:
"Regarding the Auto Bailout, the Big 3 make a profit by selling cars. How does giving $15 billion to the Big 3 help them sell more cars?
It doesn't."
In addition to the systemic problems that have already been pointed out, the automakers have hit the wall over the availability of credit, just like every other business. Not many people buy cars with cash; most take out loans. With home values dropping, you can't even take out a home equity loan the way you could have a year ago. So no one is buying cars.
With car sales plummeting, there is a huge cash flow problem for the manufacturers. Every company that manufactures big-ticket items is in the same boat, it's just that the auto industry is so big and so concentrated in the upper Midwest. They're trying to keep the industry from collapsing while waiting for the credit crunch to ease and the economy to pick up. With the loss of profits they have experienced in the last few years, they can't weather this on their own.
In theory they could just lay everyone off for a couple of months. It was common at one point to lay off auto workers every summer for model changeover retooling of the factories. That was planned and everyone was ready for it. It was figured into the workers salaries. But the ripple effect of shutting down for a long period would be enormous. A massive industrial production system isn't like a spigot you can turn on and off. It's a river that either flows or dries up. Some of the suppliers wouldn't be able to survive, and the millions of people who rely in one way or another on the auto companies for their livlihoods would be suddenly without jobs. If the states have to pay out unemployment insurance, you would certainly see financial crises in a number of state governments, with curtailment of services and layoffs. It would take a while before it hit my job, but I'm just as vulnerable as everyone else in this region.
Really--pople need to carefully think over the implications of letting the auto companies fail before cheerfully saying that they should go through bankruptcy. You will be condemning millions of blameless people--both unionized and not--to severe economic hardship. The economic impact on my region of the country would be as if a war had been fought here, and the rest of the country could expect to see economic refugees arriving on their dorrsteps. It won't be limited to this region.
And personally I think some of this is Republican payback for the upper Midwest going to the Democrats and the role the unions played in the Democratic victory. No one asked the banks for the kind of restructuring plans that some are expecting the auto industry to produce before the checks are cut.
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Oh and them Oldies are more likely to be republican as it happens so WHO is getting bailed out.
It is not like the financial industry is letting youth start a business, not just guaranteeing Oldies retirement.
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And, as far as the jobs bank is concerned, this
is apparently been going on since 1984, as
detailed in this article.
If one counts the cumulative loss due to this program,
then the unions could probably rescue the big
three and all of their suppliers by paying back the
money that they looted from the system over the
past few decades.
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Republicans support the huge bailout of AIG which is giving Bonuses, excuse me, employee retention payments to executives. AIG made huge errors that led to their problems, yet you don't hear any Republicans criticizing or suggesting that AIG go into Chapt 11.
Here's a group of Repulicans that never balanced a budget, yet complain about auto industry mis-management.
This goes beyond hypocracy. The Republican base is Wall Street Execs not blue-collar workers and definitely not union workers.
By the way, I agree with a tough stance on union benefits and wages but we can't let the Big 3 go into Chanpt 11.
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#71 Igelhart:
>>"...stuff we don't need...
And I guess you and the other GOP ideologues get to decide what we nee an don't need.
The GOP wants to destroy organized labor and it doesn't care if it triggers a depression to do it.
I can't wait for the 2010 midterms.
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#99, timohio, I appreciate what you have said,
but in some very major ways, the big three are
going to have to change just about everything
that they do in order to stay in business.
Chapter 11 does not mean that a company
is shutting down; it means that it is reorganizing.
Let's face it, they've failed. Getting Big Government
involved is only going to make things worse.
It's possible that some kind of bridge loan could
be extended during the course of the bankruptcy
to keep the doors open, but people have to face
reality sooner or later. As long as these companies
are sucking at the teat of Government, they will
continue to fail at everything except costing us
boatloads of money.
The excuse that because the banks got bailed
out, so "we should, too" doesn't wash. It would
have had more credence if the bank bailout had
worked.
In the end, the workers on the assembly lines
and the executives in their shiny office buildings
have forgotten that they don't work for GM, Ford,
or Chrysler; they work for the average car or truck
buyer who has a choice as to whether or not to
buy their product.
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#73 MagicKirin:
How clever of you to simply ignorethe first 6 years of the Bush administration. Pretty typical for the GOP: If you don't like the truth, lie, and then believe your own lies. Like the GOP lies about Fannie/Freddie triggering the housing crisis. GOP culture triggered that by giving dishonest people cover to lie, cheat and steal.
It's about more than politics.
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Gn R
I read them posts but strangely (lol) some of the things still seem fishy to me.
I personally like the wage out of work system you mention though wonder how long that level of benefit lasts.
the dutch do a deal where you get a fair percentage on unemployment but it drops.
During which time you can concentrate on finding work.
I really believe the solution is to raise everyones standards rather than lower until walmart is considered a good employer.
as it is now in the states.
If you say no then you have not worked low enough on the totem.
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#74 gunsandreligion:
>>"... government which
governs least, governs best."
No. Minimal government enables concentrated wealth and power to exploit and subjegate the people. The government must stand with the people against the wealthy and the powerful, the corporate few.
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justcorbly, somehow I don't believe that Ed
is a "GOP ideologue."
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103 Just
you really have barked up the wrong tree there.
Ed dislikes, As I do ,all the bull traps of modern life.
He dislikes the car but really you could find few people that care for the people you care for than him, I suspect.
He is certainly no GOP per but I am sure he will be both amused and a little horrified at the thought that someone could think he was.
LOL have a nice day.
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105 seems he forgot the Bush era even before it stopped . Another great LOL.
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Cornly,
1. GOP ideologue is a new descriptor for me ;-)2. Why not let "the market" decide? Cars aren't selling, so they mustn't be needed.
3. The TARP medicine doesn't seem to have worked, or credit would be flowing freely and cars would be flying off the dealers' forecourts.....
I may be rural, but I ain't Republican.
ed
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#106, I agree with what you've said, but in the
end, we Americans have to produce at least
as much as we consume. This whole world
economic model where cheap goods made in
Asia are dumped here so that they can pay
their oil bill is not working.
We can't borrow any more money. We've already
borrowed too much.
The path we should be taking is to concentrate
on high technology, our basic strength, and
not to compete on the low end. We need to
move everybody here up a notch in the world
economy, and not try to compete with Asia for
low-paying jobs.
There is an interesting statistic that I read that
China's manufacturing employment is actually
declining, due to the building of newer, more
efficient plants. Manufacturing as the mainstream
of an economy is not viable, even in a country
with as plentiful a supply of workers as China.
It can only be a component of a larger economy,
not the center.
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Re #30 GreySquirrel1867,
I don't think it's fair to discount the value of every union.
Had it not been for a union my mother (in the healthcare industry) would have been little more than an indentured servant.
Unions came into existence because workers were being exploited and mistreated. Is there a reason to think anything different would happen if the GOP hardliners succeed in breaking the labor unions?
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re. 104. gunsandreligion :
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think anyone is talking about flat-out giving the auto companies the money. It's loans and loan guarantees. They won't be sucking at the teat of Government. The government is simply stepping in to ease the credit situation. In more normal times, the banks or the stock market would be filling this function. And I'm perfectly okay with the government putting stipulations on how the companies and the unions deal with the situation. Just don't walk away completely.
Don't underestimate the impact of the auto companies going through Chapter 11. I remember the impact of the slowdown in the 1970s. It was awful. In Detroit itself, unemployment hit 30 percent. Crime soared. That's when Detroit became Murder City. It never really recovered. That could happen in a lot more places this time.
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#37 aynrandwho,
Yes, I think the companies should be looking at cuts across the board. Some, like AIG apparently, may argue that high pay is necessary to keep the most talented managers, but in this economy the pool of high-paying jobs is shrinking. Of course, regardless of the pay, I suspect the Big Three will be losing managers to jobs that may not pay more but are more stable.
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Justin, just caught your news.
I shall miss your America blog, but look forward to hearing you on the radio in the mornings. Today wlll benefit from someone who is a home on the www.
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112 Gnr
Thanks (BTW how come the ones I deride do not get it that you treat others as you would hope they treat you i think and hence Jacksforge just couldn't come up with a nickname for you ).
I agree with many points but again I see those that make should get paid as well as those that just shuffle.
Though I really do agree that he less is best approach to life is the best.
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Ed are you ever planning to let Peter know you have a degree too?
lol
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don't smack metal folks, have a hippy day
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Re #95 moderate_observer,
Unless things have changed since I scanned the news last night, the UAW was offering up cuts, just not to the extent that the oppostion wanted.
And while we are going into why the Big Three aren't competitive, let's add:
Cars that suck (as another post so eloquently and aptly phrased it)
Failure to judge market trends toward smaller and more efficient vehicles
Investment in costly litigation against enviromental regulation instead of investment in technological innovation
And, lastly, cars that suck
After personal experiences with both Japanese and American cars (anyone ever heard the phrase F.O.R.D? Fix Or Repair Daily), I can tell you that so long as I must be frugal with my money and place reliability atop my list of needs, I will never again buy an American car. I don't care if my Scion is assembled in the US or not. I care that it is reliable, low-maintenance, gets good gas mileage, and has (last I checked) the smallest carbon footprint of any car being maufactured today. Of course it doesn't hurt that it's cute and comes in Black Cherry Pearl. Gotta have priorities, right?
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/28192049#28193148
"the middle class, 8 hour day, weekend"
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No the conservative principles which the GOP used to espouse are at fault for our failing economy. The problem is that the GOP failed to follow the conservative principles they espoused before they got elected. Formerly fiscal conservatives embraced the falicy that you must spend more to make the maket grow.
Isn't it ironic Democrats, the party of tax-and-spend, should now be perceived as more fiscally responsible than GOP?
Maybe the Republican Party deserves to go the way of the federalists and the whigs, but so do the democrats who have shifted too far to the left to be a better alternative to the GOP.
No, I don't suggest making a third party, or switching to one of those little wacko parties, instead we should abandon the two party system that has polarized our politics, and corrupted our government.
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First; If anyone believes the way to steer this country out of a recession is by reducing the number of people in the middle (consumer) class they're moronic.
Second; The workers at the big three absolutely do not make anywhere near $75 per/hour. This figure, put forth by opponents of unions, is actually the cost of all things associated with current and retired workers.
Third; The retirement plans of these workers are defined benefit plans. Let me put this into terms that everyone can understand.
The United States government accepts contributions into Social Security, it does not earmark those funds, it spend that money on sometimes foolish investments, it loses our money, when it is time for me to retire it borrows money and pays interest so that it can make good on its obligation to me.
The Big Three promised to fund a pension plan, they did not fund it more than 30%, they instead invested the money in poor design and marketing, they lost the money, when it is time for those workers to retire they borrow money and pay interest so that they can make good on their contractual obligation. Bad business, don’t you think.
The workers and the companies made these agreements when the big three were the richest corporations. The big three had the money and should have properly funded those pension plans then. Now they are forced to borrow the money and tell everyone that the current workers are bleeding them dry and driving up the cost of automobiles. Management, not the workers, made these horrible decisions.
If I'm a retired worker at the big three, I'm not going to sacrifice what I worked for and what was a fair contract.
The UAW has taken concession after concession and their contracts are nowhere near what they were thirty years ago. They have made adjustments. New hires start at $14 per/hour, hardly top-tier wages.
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#85
What is this about Webb leaving?
Certainly, he is not an academic, but he has sponsored the most interesting blog on the BBC!
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#113, mdalerwill, I think that there is a happy medium.
She works on the Atlantic city boardwalk, and,
for a fee, will give you an optimistic future.
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#117, happylaze, it's too bad that jf and 80% have
been dissed. Perhaps they will reappear with
different monikers.
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A little bird told me that 80% might be contriving a reincarnation....
;-)
ed
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#111 Iglehart:
>>Why not let "the market" decide? Cars aren't selling, so they mustn't be needed.
Cars arent selling because loans aren't on offer and because people are afraid to spend because they fear losing their jobs.
Concluding that people don't need something based on their ability to buy it is bogus.
Besides, a market dominated by a few powerful corporations, as most American markets are, is far from free.
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#123 commonsense575
You raise a valid point about company pensions, in that the companies didn't hold up to their side of the bargain. Both employee and employer are supposed to pay into the fund. The latter didn't, in fact it spent the money from the employee. Now the right wingers and the ignorant blame the greedy workers for having an lucurtive pension at the expense of the company. Surreal or what!? The best way to protect your pension is to join a union, because nobody else will protect you!
#127 Ed
That's good news. I also enjoy reading posts from our new bloggers like happylaze.
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And, the result of the bailout is described herein.
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Re #125 gunsandreligion,
But a bitter small or a gloomy large might be more in order under the current circumstances.
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Let me se if I have this right... we give them money (okay, loan with the prayer it'll come back) and they get to put people on the street - people we will have to additionally pay for (medical, housing, welfare, unemployment)?
Seems like a deal made in heaven for the Wall Street investors - again.
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41. At 09:03am on 12 Dec 2008, dceilar wrote:
#27 ladycm
"Agreed. People blinded by ideology are trying to shift the blame on the unions. These union members asked for a pay rise and they got it. Damn them!"
I know, how dare they ask for more money when costs are (or were) inflating at a sky rocketing rate. When what's his face the head of GM is making millions of dollars for driving his company into failure by banking on Saturn to pull them up, even though Saturn has never made any money. Look another bad idea by someone who makes millions. My car doesn't suck because of the people on the assembly line, it sucks because of management. Attacking the unions and calling them antiquated etc will not do anything except cause more hostility between GM and their workers. Again, if they felt they did not need their union they would disband. GM needs to make their employees feel like their not going to immediately screw them without a union, and they can't do that; so the union stays. I understand there are bad sides to a union.
Being a former manager and having to work with people who should have been fired, but were protected by their union. I know I have dealt with it first hand, but this happens at companies with out unions also, no one wants to get sued. But in my opinion, their good out weighs their bad and again I will say it again...if GM, Ford, or Chrysler had anything good to offer better than what the union could offer; the auto workers would no longer be unionized! People are acting as if these workers are being held hostage. I am totally for this bailout, but management needs to change and it needs to change now. They should have worked for a dollar years ago. They should have car pooled to the senate meeting the first time instead of flying in private jets. Their selfish actions are affecting thousands of workers.
I was against the 700 billion dollar bailout. I didn't hear to much fuss about wages being slashed from republicans on this one. Here is what I learned, white collar it is okay to bail you out...in fact they gave like 152 billion to AIG alone! What the hell? But, blue collar????? No way... go stand in the unemployment line. You have 6 months to find a job. And if you bought American, now suffer your punishment for doing so with no companies to back up the product you bought. The union is NOT the problem, if anything is antiquated it’s the old idea of greedy management taking more and more and more and it’s just never enough. What is antiquated is republican ideology and republican fundamentalism. Their motive is so transparent; bring in foreign work at lower costs and lower wages to workers of this country with less benefits. Unbelievable.
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Sorry to hear Justin is leaving. I enjoyed his comments and opinions, and found most of his topics interesting even when they were a bit provocative. Hopefully, his departure means he found a more challenging and better job.
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123. At 6:56pm on 12 Dec 2008, commonsense575:
Your name says it all, you are completely correct. Greedy management displacing blame on to unions. It's all about deflecting and displacing; and republicans are eating it up. Any chance to attack the unions. The unions are not the problem, period. I bet repuclicans would love to see overtime go and 40 hour work weeks go, all of these benefits thanks to our unions.
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Justin......
The Republicans have never like the Unions in the United States, because---they [unions] usually vote for the Democrats....
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Corbly, Our records indicate it's time to check your irony circuits
and yet you want to bail them out....Complain about this comment
I agree with DominickVila and Timohio; the unions are what created the middle class in this country... I know that they have become bloated and useless in this case but no one can deny the fact that management also became greedy and useless. If the republicans are asking the auto-workers to take a pay-cut, they should also ask all the CEOs in other companies as well to limit their pay to 10 times that of an average worker. After all an organization does not depend on a single person for that person to make an outrageous amount of money. And don't tell me this is capitalism, it is greedyism!!! (You heard this word here first! :-() )
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I have always been a republican, yet over the years I find Republicans in office to be wannabe's. They are not true republicans! They attack the unions as being counter productive to business. If corporations would pay their employees fairly and not abuse labor laws while trying to pay off republicans to hide behind their misdeeds, then there would be no need for unions. For a Senator to use the UAW as a scapegoat shows why the American people have voted for Democrats. When the Republican party can't get their act together and represent the people and not themselves.
Maybe, just maybe they might get some respect.
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127 Ed Iglehart wrote:
A little bird told me that 80% might be contriving a reincarnation....
If you are referring to LesMajestey, I don't think that's 80% attempting to clothe himself in a bodily sheath. Watch, it'll be like one of those horror movies where you don't see what you're expecting to see. Like the scene in Hitchcock's Psycho, when he turns the chair around (in which we have been led to believe his mother was sitting) to reveal a grinning skeleton, Les Majestey will soon be revealed as ....Xie_Ming:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/worldtonight/2008/12/will_obama_get_tough_with_isra.html#comment8
But I guess you'll be happy with that. One man's horror movie is another man's entertainment.
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Bush done it!
Peace and Republican Unityed
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TT,
Oooooh! You're soooo perceptive!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Ref 141
Perhaps Sen. Corker (R) TN should elaborate a bit more on his insistance to achieve parity in wages and benefits between UAW members and non-union workers in foreign auto plants operating in the USA, while there is absolutely no talk in doing the same for CEO's, Board members, and the white collar hierarchy.
Should we assume that the multi-millionaire senator is only concerned about "middle class parity" (smells like communism), but does not see a need to do the same for the inept upper class that helped get us in the mess we are in?
Hopefully, people will remember the position taken by the new GOP super-star when he runs for re-election. Then again, all he will have to do in his home state is praise the Lord, denounce abortion and homosexuality as works of the Devil, and issue fahtwas against "Arabs" to be re-elected by a landslide.
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TT,
You got that right, Sherlock!Complain about this comment
Stories I heard
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#92 Ed Iglehart:
"Scot,
" Now you see I just don't believe that either space or resources are limited, "
Why am I not surprised? And what's your take on the first law of thermodynamics?"
I of course don't mean that resources are infinite but as far as our single species is concerned they are effectively unlimited, and if you are referring to entropy isn't that the second law? Given the available energy sources the first seems irrelevant for a few billion years, and then there's always vacuum energy...
Try expanding your horizons Ed, take off those green blinkers and see the larger universe.
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ref #138
I respectfully disagree, Unions for the last generation have been engaged in class war fare and intimidation.
George Meany was a thug and Robert Poli jepordized air safety to pay for his $1,000 suits.
I agree everyone should have to take a cut but the rule about a manager or owner only making 10 times?
Bill Gates may be an egomaniac but he deserves to make 100 times more than an entry level person at Microsoft
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#143 tt
How about the blog Les is replying to that states attacks by Israeli extremists on Palestinians. One report in Haaretz described the violence as "out and out pogroms"!
It's an interesting whilst unpleasant read.
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Scot,
I was referring to the First Law, and its inherent acceptance of limits. There is only what there is, and if you believe that space and resources are 'effectively unlimited', then I have a Tooth Fairy friend who'd love to sell you a bridge.Peace within limits
ed
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Hard Talk, but nwell worth the time.
Peace
ed
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145. Ed Iglehart,
I doubt that you are impressing anyone other than the few groupies who follow you around here and perhaps a lurking 80%. But I guess it's your way of covering up your inability or unwillingness to debate the issues.
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AsaScot (#147), while I think I understand the distinction you are trying to draw, I don't agree that the energy problem is "irrelevant for a few billion years." The First Law is just conservation of energy. While there is, indeed, a lot of energy around us to tap, the problem is the extent to which we (most of humankind) rely on fossil fuels, which contain stored energy received from the sun millions of years age. These are not being renewed at anywhere near the rate we consume them. In time, they will become so scarce that we will have to adapt to other sources or use less energy, whether we like it or not. We do not have billions of years to change our ways. The operational question is: what do we need to do now to begin adapting the global economy to prepare for the depletion of our fossil fuels?
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The $75 an hour figure is obviously a lie. However the Republican Doctors and Lawyers do get on average more than $100 an hour and will not tell you what they are going to bill you ahead of time. The same Republicans think a Blackwater securiy guard worth $662.00 a day. The Republican's hate the Unions because they have been effective at poining out the outrageous corruption of the Bush years. Those same politicians have no problem giving Millions to Nissan and Toyota for Factories in Mississippi or Mercedes and BMW in Alabama. Remember their first rule "Americans in trouble need to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, unless they are needy millionaires" aid to foreigners who hate America is the real purpose of the government". Glad they lost!
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re: 130 g&r
Guns, thanks for that link.
Rooting about on the hawk's site, I found the reason why Ford is in much better shape. With sensible, economical models like this, how can they lose?
You know, I used to read my grandma's old National Geographic magazines not for the bare breasted ladies ('sides, I knew where Dad hid the Playboys), but for the car ads. My fave (for reasons I can't explain) was the 1962 Coupe Deville. How the mighty have fallen . . .
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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154
"The Republican's hate the Unions because they have been effective at poining out the outrageous corruption of the Bush years. "
Wait a minute, I thought Bush was a Republican?! Moreover, I know that Bush is, was, and always will be a diehard GOP man. The whole family is like that. That would mean that Bush's excess is the GOP's excess. Therefore, aren't the Republicans (by your own logic) pointing out their own excess?
I'm really confused!
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149. dceilar,
I've been following that story. The left in Israel is jumping up and down in angst at these unruly Jewish youths behaving like Palestinians. And Prime Minister Olmert also lapsed into gross exaggeration and misrepresentation by calling these disturbances a "pogrom." Gives you an idea of the craziness of the debate in Israel, with Israelis flinging the same insults at one another that the antisemites fling at them.
A pogrom is a state backed rampage in which innocents are raped, robbed and murdered and their houses destroyed. I'm sure you can see the difference between that and what is happening here. You might also note that one of the Israeli youths suffered a serious head injury from a rock thrown by a Palestinian. That was over a week ago and he has only now regained consciousness.
Has anyone ever heard of Palestinian rampages against Jews being described lately as pogroms? And if not, why not?
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Republicans don't really hate labor unions but they would probably make an exception in the UAW's case. The union has saddled the automakers with inflated labor costs, rules that prevent disciplining unproductive workers and a benefits package that Congress itself might envy. At the same time they have become a de facto branch of the Democratic Party, using union money for campaign contributions, providing campaign "volunteers" and telling members how to vote.
The UAW is desperately calling in its markers and offering face saving concessions now because they know if the companies go bankrupt the first that goes are their contracts and once gone they're gone for good.
It's no coincidence that every new car plant built in the U.S.for the last forty years has been built in states where workers cannot be forced to join a union in order to work. Foreign automakers U.S. labor costs are as much as a third less than those of the Big Three and their product quality is just as good if not better.
If the U.S. car makers go under a big part of the reason will be that the UAW helped kill the goose that layed the golden egg.
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Oops, I misunderstood. Sorry about that!
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#137 Iglehart:
>>"...yet you want to bail them out....
Why wouldn't I?
The welfare of people takes precedence over the welfare of belief.
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Those fulminating against union work rules need to remember why those rules were put in place (through negotiation with management, I might add). They are a reaction against abuses by management. Job classifications are a protection against making a low-paid worker do a job that would normally be done by a higher paid worker. Rules about working through a union process before firing a worker resulted from arbitrary dismissals. Grievance procedures were a way of dealing with worker complaints in a fashion that put both labor and management at the table. Some of these rules may be archaic and some too rigidly enforced, but they were not arbitrarily imposed on a powerless management. They were negotiated in a series of contracts. And basically, if management had behaved in a responsible manner in the first place, many of those work rules would never have come about.
Work rules get stuck in contracts like forgotten bits of DNA from prehistoric ancestors, and malcontents use them to their private advantage. But the way to get rid of them is to negotiate, just like the process that implanted them in the first place. They are not illegal and they are not un-American. They are part of contract negotiations. Why is a business contract sacred and a union contract reprehensible?
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Let's just put it this way.
If Detroit goes under, the Republicans' irrational hatred of unions will be the cause of the failure of the bailout, at least in the eyes of the American people, or at least those who live in the Midwest. The Republicans will have won their battle to destroy the American auto industry and the power of the workers there.
But there will be some unfortunate consequences (unfortunate to the Republicans and to the Midwest) that will come out of this as a result:
*Michigan's economy will utterly collapse;
*Indiana (parts manfacturers), Illinois (fabricators of all sorts), Ohio, Pennsylvania (steel industry), Wisconsin, and Minnesota's (can you say Mesabi Range?) economies' will be gravely harmed;
*It's quite possible that the resulting shock will trigger a catastrophic deflationary spiral in the entire United States;
*It's also very likely that the Republicans will have ceded the Upper Midwest to the Democrats for the next 40 years, and possibly the entire United States, especially if this thing turns into a depression, and it probably will, the Republicans will be reduced to a regional party. (Truly "a national party no more".)
*It's also probable that Obama will inherit the greatest crisis, and the best political opportunity for any president since FDR in 1933.
So, suffice it to say, the Republicans have managed to win the battle, and doom Detroit, but they have also managed to lose the war.
But don't take my word for it...watch the future unfold.
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ref #152 and 162
You both are listening to the UAW lies and propganda.
ABC and Fox News both reported it was the UAW unwillingness to give up anything in immediate paybacks that caused the bill to go down.
That is why many of us feel a controlled bankrupcy is the best way to go.
Go on aol poll and you will see bailout is opposed by 64%.
Death to the UAW!!
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162 katana0812, the political consequences you cite are very likely. I'm impressed that you managed to be so astute! I AM a Minnesotan, born, raised, and still living here.
How much do you want to bet that with their continuing tactics of being spoilers rather than constructive criticism, they will CONTINUE to lose out in each and every election? Everybody thinks the US is oblivious, which is only true if you listen to our media blather. If you spend time watching us personally, you'll start picking up on patterns which have nothing to do with CNN or Fox etc. We don't forget, EVER! We do allow for exceptions, but we only become more suspicious when you've got a record of being shifty and then suddenly appear squeaky clean. The McCain campaign is a great example; he'd say anything to get elected, including abandoning his entire personality and track record! Hey John, did you really think we wouldn't notice the constant about-faces?! You must have a pretty low opinion of the peanut gallery, eh? Sheesh!
I thought the GOP used to be really intelligent, but they seem so determined now to cut off the nose to spite our faces that I am wondering how mentally present they really are!
I don't have a side when it comes to unions and the big 3, I just think the whole thing is a mess of near Biblical proportions.
I don't know nearly as much about economics as I do USA politics, it seems too unpredictable to me. We shall see if Obama pulls a rabbit out of his rear end or not, won't we?
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Michael Moore is on form again.
They could have given the loan on the condition that the automakers start building only cars and mass transit that reduce our dependency on oil.
They could have given the loan on the condition that the automakers build cars that reduce global warming.
They could have given the loan on the condition that the automakers withdraw their many lawsuits against state governments in their attempts to not comply with our environmental laws.
They could have given the loan on the condition that the management team which drove these once-great manufacturers into the ground resign and be replaced with a team who understands the transportation needs of the 21st century.
Yes, they could have given the loan for any of these reasons because, in the end, to lose our manufacturing infrastructure and throw 3 million people out of work would be a catastrophe.
But instead, the Senate said, we'll give you the loan only if the factory workers take a $20 an hour cut in wages, pension and health care. That's right. After giving BILLIONS to Wall Street hucksters and criminal investment bankers -- billions with no strings attached and, as we have since learned, no oversight whatsoever -- the Senate decided it is more important to break a union, more important to throw middle class wage earners into the ranks of the working poor than to prevent the total collapse of industrial America.
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ref #165
Michael Moore is one of the biggest liars in America. He doesn't pay reasonable benifits to the people who work for him.
His exposes are full of half truths.
He represents what is worse in this country
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The average GM employee is actually making around $35 an hour. They accrue about $39 in benefits. As far as assembly work goes, both are quite high. Many Advanced Practice Nurses I work with don't even make that much.
It is completely inconsitent to pass for the banks but reject the car makers, but somewhat less ludicrous. They ignored the people and threw money at failures and thieves--but in the end, did sustain those intended to be; albiet immorallly, idiotically, and most of all UNCONSTITUTIONALLY.
What happens if we give GM & Chrysler our money? They waste it, they make minor tweaks to their inferior models, and continue as they always have. Even if we gave them $100 billion, nobody would buy their cars, and they will still fail.
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Agreeing with #266 MagicKirin.
Michael Moore's train of credibility has long left the station.
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127 I was wondering and thinking of changing my name to 20% left.
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Chapter 11 is the way to go.
always easy to tell others the way when you are lost ,Eh?
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Chapter 11 is the way to go.
always easy to tell others the way when you are lost ,Eh?
165. At 2:28pm on 13 Dec 2008, dceilar
Nice post says it all really.
166
at least he gets half of it right , so he's better off than you.
What is so wrong with what was quoted.
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140 again your obsession is amazing. Care to talk about anything other than your whining comments about others identities.
again Ignore the last question and get on with complaining that people are undesirables (when frankly i would suspect most would find you to be that) instead of defending yourself or your arguments.
Now Jacksforge got in trouble because he could not call you by your nickname for yourself but insisted in bringing a honey loving bear when mentioning you.
To which you complained and wailed about how rude it was and how truthful you were.
The content of your posts gets even worse
now there is no attempt to say anything but complain about who someone could be.
Oh and trying to side track with the "I" issue.
I'm off to see where the "Muslim East " is now I am so clear on the "christian east".
and to the strange pickle that is majik who said
"I respectfully disagree, Unions for the last generation have been engaged in class war fare and intimidation."
well they lost then didn't they.
Did you hear about the disparity in wealth in the US going UP. Now if them unions were doing so much that number might well be the other way around .
Do you also live in a land where the Christian east is Poland?
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This from today's Detroit Free Press(a paper that itself is about to go under), regarding how UAW President Gettlefinger conducted himself in negotiations to save his industry from collapse:
'Gettelfinger said he told U.S. Sen. Bob Corker, a Republican from Tennessee, that if Toyota was going to be used as the benchmark for wages, the union leader was willing to send a team of his researchers to Toyota to study the automaker’s entire wage structure.
“In addition to that, if we were going to use them as a benchmark, we should be permitted to see how they pay their management,” Gettelfinger said. “If we did that, we should also see their dealer contracts and as well as their supplier contracts. That would only make sense to me instead of somebody saying, ‘Here’s the wage — that’s what you have to agree to.’ ”
In other words, he was demanding the right to send his minions in to go over Toyota's books, as well as the books of Toyota's suppliers, BEFORE he would agree to any wage/beneft concessions in the bail-out package.
OMG!!
Does this help anyone understand why so much of the country HATES the UAW, and is willing to let the Big Three go into bankruptcy?
And, now Bush and Paulson are going to send them money anyway. Gettlefinger must have known this all along.
The good news is, with GM staring a $60b in debt, only $2b in net worth, bankruptcy is now inevitable. If I held GM corporate paper at .11 on the dollar, I would be reluctant to swap it for equity, knowing that the UAW would be doing the same in regards to monies owed its benefit fund. Who would want to be in bed with these clowns?
And, who would ever wish to buy a GM auto, having just witnessed this past week's charade?
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140 thankyou for bringing that to my attention, as i always thought you do a good job of stirring up anti Israeli feeing.
appalling behaviour there by the settlers.
Now can we get back to the continents that are the Americas's
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152. At 10:14pm on 12 Dec 2008, TrueToo wrote:
145. Ed Iglehart,
"I doubt that you are impressing anyone other than the few groupies who follow you around here and perhaps a lurking 80%. But I guess it's your way of covering up your inability or unwillingness to debate the issues."
like jacksforge said long ago when you turned up, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
you have raised no issues to debate.
you have attacked only people not issues.
157
again trying to raise the israeli issue so you bud z can come back and complain.
"A pogrom is a form of riot directed against a particular group, whether ethnic, religious, or other, and characterized by the killing and destruction of their homes, businesses, and religious centers. The term in English is often used to denote extensive violence against Jews — either spontaneous or premeditated — but it has also been applied to similar incidents against other minority groups."
Wiki.
yours" A pogrom is a state backed rampage in which innocents are raped, robbed and murdered and their houses destroyed."
not quite the same are they.
My arguments against you will be saved for a time when this subject is raised within the discussion, as opposed to because you felt you "had"to expose les Majesty because how else were you going to change the discussion to your one and only.
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"Has anyone ever heard of Palestinian rampages against Jews being described lately as pogroms? And if not, why not?"
but I would say that the article talked about how the Israeli Gunmen were detained by the Palestinians.
Where as is a Palestinian had shot at two Jews I guarantee he would be shot several times.
By the crowd.
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163
"ABC and Fox News both reported it was the UAW unwillingness to give up anything in immediate paybacks that caused the bill to go down."
that is exactly why some of us do not believe the press is as left bent as you would often claim.
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173 why not send them in. everyone is quoting the Toyota numbers why not check to see if they are real or as misleading as the 75$ number.
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164. At 12:10pm on 13 Dec 2008, Jeebers76 wrote:
I thought the GOP used to be really intelligent, but they seem so determined now to cut off the nose to spite our faces that I am wondering how mentally present they really are!"
Not very. They have walked into this one and won't escape in a hurry.
For blundering politics this would be hard to beat.
In one stroke they have got Obama off the hook and handed him a political coup. Now he can claim the Republicans are against saving US jobs.
And this in a looming recession!
Their actions are so crass one wonders if the whole thing was a set up.
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We could end all of these bankruptcies.
Write the law as follows:
1. You can seek banrupcy protection.
2. Management can no longer borrow from the pension fund.
3. Your labor contracts are business contracts, if you choose not to honor them you can no longer seek re-dress through the courts for failure to honor contracts with you.
4. All management bonuses for the last seven years will be returned to the corporation. If the corporation returns to solvency and shows a profit for five rears they will be returned.
5. All travel will be done in the economy model automobile built by that corporation.
6. Management will be at their desk working, they will use the same clock in and clock out procedures as they use for their workers. Everybody will clock out for lunck, the same as the workers. Negotiable, once we return to profitability.
7. Every model will be given a Manager who will be responsible for returning it to profitability. If they do not do this in a 6 month period, they will be sent before the stockholders as fired, where a 55% favorable vote will be required to re-instate them.
8. While on travel the re-imbusement rates for hotels and meals will be the same as Federal employees no more. No more thousand dollar a night hotel rooms.
9. All people making more than one million dollars a year will be fired. Jobs will be re-announced and filled from the applicants who are willing to do the job for a million or less. All employees will be considered.
10. There will be a daily sales meeting attended by representatives of the US treasury department. Purposeful waste or re-direction of coorporate funds to personal use will be treated fraud as against the government and the perpatrators sent to federal prison.
11. Sexual harrassment of workers will no longer be a suing event, the non-working manager will be fired and criminally charged with extorion under threat of rape.
12. Any manager bringing a golf club or tennis racket on company property will be fired.
13. All company paid memberships in countryclubs, private clubs and charities are cancelled.
14. The new motto is "Cars and Trucks, conquer or die!" It will be viewable in all work sites and offices.
15. All employees will, ( to include management) be rotated through car club meet-ups around the country, so they will learn what an American classic looks like.
16. Events will be planned around the world to show case the superiority of the American car.
17. We abolish the manegement concept. We now have two types of workers. Leader workers and Regular workers.
18. We make being the number 1 salesman the highest paid position at the company!
19. All leader workers will learn how to operate every posioton in their area or be relieved as incompetent.
20. The world will be broken into zones and every day the President, the top leader and Auto worker will read the corporate reports on what we sold in each Zone. Zone leaders who do not perform will be demoted and sent to the production line, until they the leader is competitive again.
21. Every worker will be given the oportunity and told that they can rise all the way to the top leadersip position.
22. A culture of Auto Worker being the only and most important job inthe world will be fostered. Doubters will be fired.
A lot of these ideas are variations of ideas of General George Patton's writings that I was made to read at the 5th Infantry Division, US Army, in the 1980s. My Battalion Commander used to ask every Morning at Offier's call if OUR men and machines were ready to "Win the Battle of Armageddon". It should be noted that the 5th Inf. Division had not been under General Patton, since 1946, but the team culture and leadership expectations were still there.
Leadership in the big three has become a free ride for fat and lazy men who would rather be clogging up the board room with stories of what they did with their lier jet, secreary or what type of latte they drank at the club. I favor a loan, but not a monetary gift and none of the money can be used for foreign factories, let them beg from those governments.
What is Norman Schwartkopf doing these days? What a great car Czar!
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Re: 180
LOL! I'd apply for one of those jobs, as long a it came with a set of pearl handled .45's.
Cheers,
Canadian Pinko
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#181
Dear Chronophobe,
the preferred Colt .45 Single Action Pistols( chambered for .45 Long Colt, not .45 Auto ammunition) are of course a private purchase item every leader should already own. Since, we are involving the Goverment in this endeavor we may be able to get the loan of some Colt, .45 Autos to aid us in getting the weaker managers, scratch that leaders in facing their tasks.
Sorry, but can't help with the pearl handles according to the General I quote "Only a pimp in a New Orleans whore house has pearl handes on his pistol" GP's pistols were of course the politically incorrect, but beautiful solid Ivory with Gold Initials. I still think to shake the place up and get people in the correct mindset to win, you would be hard pressed to find a better leader than Stormin Norman.
It would be fun to be there when the first leader told old Storman Norman that we should close a factory, because he was unable to lead it profitably.
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#81 --
Hey, Ed, what are you smokin'?!!!
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery . . .
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So the baloney figure of the Union worker making $75 an hour, OR around $150,000 dollars a year isn't real? They must all have Cadillacs, and Continentals, if it is?
One question what did the CEO's and executive officers take home$$$$$?
Just like AIG's union workers must make big bucks???
Right now Union membership in the US is around 9% of the workforce roughly. It is amazing how they caused all these problems and collapsed the banks, insurance companies, housing market, and made oil increase. Gee I guess we have all been misinformed.
Local #421 International Brotherhood of Scapegoats, and Convienient Corporate Targets.
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Just for reference , here a USA auto workers division of labour per state map. Found on CNN !.
Very strange average wage figures per state?
Can only assume they have divided total workforce irrespective of hours worked into total income. e.g Michigan ranked number 1 earning $65000 +, and yet California, [ number 2] $ 17590.
Breakdown of jobs
At least it gives an idea of the amount of jobs in the industry, regarding assembly, parts and sales, although it does not specify which carmakers they refer to.
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I think the simplest way to look at this is to use the metaphor of the TV show "Survivor", a program which pitted two teams of (usually) successful business people against each other in remote wilderness areas, and gave each team challenges that had to be won in order to stay on the island and win the "big money". Invariably, the skills that got people promoted in business got them thrown off the island at tribal council. Why? Because the basic attitudes fostered in modern business are unsustainable, and this fact is blatantly obvious when you strip things down to a survival level.
Once *unmasked* (i.e. no longer anonymous in their offices), most people do finally adapt to some degree, once it becomes obvious to them that they will not survive otherwise (though many resist until it is too late to save themselves). What's lacking right now in the auto and banking industries is the recognition that change is necessary to their survival. The recognition is lacking because society protects corporations, and corporate management, from the consequences of their own actions. As a result, they continue doing the same things, and we continue to pay.
The solution is simple: make them pay instead. Most people have an aversion to pain. Only when we make the pain of their mistakes theirs (instead of the public's) will corporations and share holders sit up and take notice. As long as we keep bailing them out we are all just postponing the inevitable extinction of life as we know it.
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If the Big 3 should fail, the loss of the tax revenue from companies and employees alike would hit 100 billion dollars in one year. These people will also be eligible for unemployment - billions more. Then there will surely be more home foreclosures (they can funnel more money to these banks that aren't lending money to anyone). The cost to our government will be far greater if they don't get this loan. Simple math.
This is clearly an attempt to break the unions. Some are saying that the UAW is antiquated but if it didn't exist, the workers would have been stripped of everything by these senators. Senators who come from states that subsidized the foreign car companies very generously to come into their states. With all of the technological advances that the big three have made (all are about to launch electric vehicles), it seems like they really want to squelch the competition of their constituents.
If they were truly looking for cost savings and not just union busting, why were the salaries and legacy costs (health care and pensions etc.) of the big 3 white collar workers not brought up at all? To watch these things unfold on CSPAN, you would think that these companies only consist of the CEO's and the people who build the cars.
Let's not forget that Detroit manufacturing aka. "The Arsenal of Democracy" was a major lynchpin for allied victory in World War II. Take a look at all of the charities the American car companies and union members contribute to - especially in times of crisis like 9/11. Then look at what these transplants chipped in to help.
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#153 Gary-A-Hill:
"The operational question is: what do we need to do now to begin adapting the global economy to prepare for the depletion of our fossil fuels?"
Sorry for the late reply but yes I agree we need to develop alternative energy sources, my point really was such alternatives are plentiful and there's no need to embrace the Green desire for some mythical medieval rural idyll free of the 'evils' of technology.
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With the Christmas season upon us, the three wise men - Larry, Curly and Moe - are sitting in the White House contemplating their next move to stanch the economy from further bleeding.
So far Bush, Cheney and Paulson have given money to the banks and insurance companies without any requirement for accountability. Repubs only care about their rich friends and like Scrooge, leave the rest to suffer their fate.
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I haven't blogged here in awhile, but I've been reading. I just want to point out one thing.
#6 & #7 allmymarbles wrote that UAW workers make about $75 per hour. That figure comes from auto industry management and it includes the entire cost of all employee pensions. The actual per hour figure for UAW employees is closer to $54 per hour including benefits, which is not that far above (about $10 per hour) what other auto workers make in the US. Considering that this is far below the wage of the average professional (doctor, lawyer, etc.) and considering that well made automobiles can be life-savers, I don't think UAW wages are out of line. The CEO wages, however, are so high as to be obscene.
By the way, I am a business owner and a democrat.
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#189 BrianDMerritt
"like Scrooge, leave the rest to suffer their fate."
Why do people always misuse the Scrooge name? In the story he is a man who is shown the error of his ways and changes them, something we see no sign of so far with the Bush Whitehouse.
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AsaScot (#188), I see, and I agree.
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191 lol
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Unions helped build the middle class, kill the unions and the middle class will disappear. This is exactly what the republicans want. I'm sure that most of the republican senators have an understanding with the lobbyist for a big payout if they can quash the UAW.
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194. At 8:08pm on 15 Dec 2008, ilostmymind wrote:
Unions helped build the middle class, kill the unions and the middle class will disappear. This is exactly what the republicans want. I'm sure that most of the republican senators have an understanding with the lobbyist for a big payout if they can quash the UAW.
well. said
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The Unions are only half the problem with the Car Makers. The other half is poor management and gas guzzling cars.
As far as the GOP is concerned, why would they bail out an organization that blindly spends millions trying to defeat them in every election.
Detroit is basically a ghetto which is totally controlled by the Dems and I doubt the loss of car makers could actually make it much worse.
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196
and wall street is a ghetto filled with GOP why the hell should we bail them out.
Oh look they already ran off with half the money.
And that is 6 times what the motor heads wanted.
Now suckers think of this. what happens when Detroit is gone and the others figure they can just close the US plants build at home and keep all the Jobs there.
Ask the workers at the Cowley Rd Plant, or the truck builders of Layland Daff.
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Where I work the Bush Republicans fighting with the Union is kind of laughable. The Agency of the Federal Government I work for is heavily loaded with Veterans and 2nd Ammendment proponents (the right to keep and bear arms), additionally we are located in one of the most conservative sections of the South. In 2000 the Local Union (AFGE)had 60 Members and pretty much confined themselves to Local Grievances. In 2008, the Union Local is 398 members, our Local leaders regularly lobby politicians and send the Workers daily updates on the computer.
What happened? The Republican policies started to directly impact our workers lives (God bless their dark little souls). The Union defended everbody's job during the privatization mess, they consistently beat the Bushies on pay raises for eight years, they stood up for everybody's right against unreasonable searches at the worksite entrance, They consistently stood by the staff's right to bid by Seniority for their job assignment instead of allowing management to arbitrarily pick where people would work based on who they liked ( the Union called management's system girlfriends first!). But mostly they consistently, fought for things that were important for us on the local job and communicated to us what they were doing.
During the whole period the Bushies tried to change the Labor law through Bush appointed Federal Labor Relations Authority and Federal Service Impass Panel decisions that directly re-wrote every Labor law this nation ever had. Every time they issued a decision taking away a worker's fight the Union let everbody at the worksite know, by computer. We all saw some dewsies. FSIP issued a descion by phone that management had a right to do away with a compressed work schedule the Worker's had (4 ten hour days) and replace it (with 5 eight hour day). The management would then have to involuntarily mandatory Staff to overtime and operate the factory and pay overtime to get 1/2 the production we had before. What do we make? The plate carrier for the US Army and US Marines. Thats right when the US Soldiers and Marines did not have bullet proof vests and the Bushies were blocking parents from buying an inferior one on the private market the factory at Yazoo, Mississippi, was shut down for two shifts very dayand unwanted overtime paid every day, just so the Bushies could make a point that they had the power and could destroy Unions.
The day I went down and voted against the Republicans (all of them on the ticket) in the last election, I pinned two things on my shirt a pin that said proud veteran US Army and a Union pin that said proud member of Local 1013.
The Bushies made that happen, keep up the Union bashing and see where it gets you.
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I am surprised at the well of spite drawn from by both sides of this debate (and my comment is not directed at 198, I am just returning to this thread).
On one hand there seem to be "anti-Detroiters", a righteous baby-boomer contingent who equate Detroit with "The Establishment" and bring almost a 1960's level of distrust and disdain for any American automobile. These equate the "Big 3" with poor quality and environmental irresponsibility, and want Detroit companies and management punished.
On the other hand there are the "anti-UAWers" who blame the workers' unions for almost all that is wrong with the domestic car industry and want the unions broken or punished.
Neither side recalls the simple 'buy American' sentiment that was already on the wane as I grew up. That sentiment is dilted now that 'domestic' cars may be GM-Suzuki, GM-Toyota, Ford-Nissan, Chrysler-Mitsubishi, etc. joint ventures, and Big 3 brand cars may be rebadged from overseas or assembled in Mexico or Canada, and imported brand cars assembled at USA-located factories.
I think that quality differences are essentially irrelevent between car makers. Even in cases where this is not true, keep in mind that the discounted cost of a Big 3 car relative to non-discounted import (those discounts are part of why the Big 3 are vulnerable) typically pays for several extra engine or drivetrain repairs.
People who fret over the resale value of a car, where imports often lead domestic brands, must not keep them for at least 8-10 years and 100-150,000 miles like I do (ultimately selling for 10% or less of new price or donating).
It's true that there are too many low-MPG choices in the domestic line-ups but that is because of the American muscle car and monster truck culture (so, we buyers are to blame), the exemption of many truck based vehicles from CAFE (government and automaker lobbyists brought us this, but not enough voters protested), and low gas prices to make people scoff at the relevance of CAFE anyway (again, government never raised gas tax from 18 cents per gallon over decades, even as that was diluted 3- or 4-fold by inflation, and voters didn't care). The import brands happily offered big trucks and SUVs to compete, so there is no monopoly on giving customers the environmentally irresponsible products they want.
The big 3 are bringing out smaller SUVs and trucks (and there have been efficient sedan and hatchback or wagon choices since c.1980, and even those GM X-car and Chrysler K-car and first minivans were 2nd or 3rd generation after the Dodge Dart, Chevy Vega and Ford Falcon 1960's econocars). This is all happening now that Americans are starting to wake up to oil supply politics, some 35 years after our first oil embargo price shock.
Neither the anti-Detroiters or the anti-UAWers seem to comprehend the magnitude of a Detroit collapse. There is the simple, practical matter of the 2 million or so auto industry workers. Keeping them working by lending and demanding a deliberate restructuring is a far more cost-effective stimulus than throwing them all out on the streets. I begrudge the UAW benefits to retired workers, that let some of them buy bass boats or vacation travel, far less than I resent the Wall Street bonuses that slipped through new bailout legislation and will let failed bank and fund executives buy yachts or private islands.
We ignore dripping faucets but can't overlook a broken pipe or a tree crashing through the roof. The people who can overlook the last year of 10,00 layoffs here and 50,000 layoffs there, and want to bring their ideological spite to bear against Detroit, will get a very rude awakening with 1-2 million more unemployed should Detroit melt down because "we showed those greedy ____ (pick one: managers/union workers)"! or because we dithered through the holidays.
Keeping more people employed and taking a year or two and $15 billion or so to fix what both sides think is wrong makes with Detroit more sense than a opting for a 10% unemployment because of anti-Detroit, ant-union ideology, or $15 billion Detroit loan hesistancy caused by $700 billion TARP remorse.
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Here's some comments on the auto issue.
My home state has 8% unemployment. A car plant one county over may not renew the contracts of up to 733 contract workers. An auto parts plant another county over is offering voluntary severance packages to 1300 workers, much like a plant in another part of our state did to 2100 workers earlier this month. Another nearby plastics plant laid off 28 workers after sales to car companies slowed.
You can't blame the unions for these. The plants in question are not in Michigan- they're in South Carolina, where unions are generally considered unwelcome.
http://www.greenvilleonline.com/article/20081218/BUSINESS/812180309/1074?GID=Dx/MF+JySywPD3GTufa8/HCwZnMo6MAaScNq3ZX4eLU%3D
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Oh, everyone says that Big 3 (union) autoworkers make more than their counterparts at Foreign-owned (nonunion) plants. I'm curious- how much do the CEOs of said Foreign-owned companies make compared to the Big 3 CEOs?
Finally, here's a point which others may not have addressed. How much of the carmakers losses isn't due to unions or to SUV sales declines, but to the financial (i.e. paper) losses by GMAC or Ford Motor Credit?
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199 well said Bluejay
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OK, now for the reality. According to AOL News the most popular car in America is the FORD (a big three American Auto company) F-150 Pick-up truck and number two is the CHEVY Silverado pick-up truck(also a big 3 American Auto company). OK, where do the non-union made foreign manufactures that the Republicans in the South financed fall? Dead last!
Amongst the least favorite is the Nissan Armada and the Nissan Quest all made right here in Canton, Mississippi, 16 miles from the former head of the Republican National Committees house (currently the States Governor).
BY the way before this he was a lobbiest for the Government of Mexico for the NAFTA debacle, so this isn't the first time he has run into a the Union men and women trying to preserve American jobs.
We may build Nissans in Mississipi, but we drive GM, Ford and Chrysler Union made vehicles.
My neighbors litterally bleed blue ovals, gold bow ties or Ram heads in the South. Ever see the Dukes of Hazzard on TV? There are NO foreign cars in it, that would be correct for the most. We may have to build them to feed our families, but we don't have to love them or drive them Japanese cars.
My buddy Tim bought a foreign sports car and I was in My 2008 Mustang GT and we were racing to Jackson and when my car went over the hill it left the ground with all four tires and landed without damage thanks to a solid rear axle and mufflers that were angled upwards just like they always have ever since Steve McQueen showed the world how to do it in the Movie "BULLIT". Nothing but the ussall shower of sparks and the sound of acceleration (turn off Air bags first or they ill deploy). Tim's car was really exciting! The independent suspension tucked the tire of the car under the body when the car left the ground causing it to flip at 100 plus miles an hour into a farmers field. Tim was hospitalized for three months. He bought a Mustang GT with a roll cage with his insurace money though. A smart man learns from his mistakes. This is not to say the Chevy Camaro and Dodge Chalegers&Chargers are not also good cars.
All cars should come with big roll cages, five point seat belts,self sealing gas tanks like fighter planes and a choice of Super charger or turbo charger.
Everything is better with a hood scoop on it! V-8s forever!
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Re: 201 Orvillethird
Finally, here's a point which others may not have addressed. How much of the carmakers losses isn't due to unions or to SUV sales declines, but to the financial (i.e. paper) losses by GMAC or Ford Motor Credit?
That is a bloody good question. A quick search yielded this CNN article about GMAC trying to restructure the debt on its "ailing mortgage unit."
If any of the financial wizards out there have knowledge of how much the crisis at the Big 3 is due to the problems of their credit divisions, please share!
My own car buying experience would suggest that making cars is, especially for GM and Chrysler, primarily a pretence for lending you money.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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Re: 203 politejomsviking
A smart man learns from his mistakes. This is not to say the Chevy Camaro and Dodge Chalegers&Chargers are not also good cars.
All cars should come with big roll cages, five point seat belts,self sealing gas tanks like fighter planes and a choice of Super charger or turbo charger.
Sir,
I reckon a "smart man" would not be racing a production car on a public road at 100 mph. Nor would he expect to jump said car and not radically damage it, himself, and any unlucky passersby.
As to your apparently undamaged Mustang, you might want to have a mechanic check for major structural damage. That is, of course, unless the whole tale is total BS.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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he car left the ground causing it to flip at 100 plus miles an hour into a farmers field.
no people like you shouldn't get licences .
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Re: 203, again
And furthermore . . .
As to your claims about the popularity of domestic pickups, I am extremely sceptical. My understanding is that:
"Cars outsold the top-selling Ford F-series truck in May for the first time since 1992, a sign of the rapid shift in customers' preferences from trucks and SUVs to small cars that is forcing painful production cuts and plant closures at General Motors and Ford Motor .
For a generation, pickups and SUVs have symbolized a rugged, oversized, no-holds-barred American lifestyle.
Tuesday, automakers made it clear that consumers are hitting the brakes on their love affair with the hardiest, roomiest — and thirstiest — vehicles."
This from USA Today, updated in June 2008.
Unless things have changed pretty radically since then, I'd say your assertion is dated, and/or out to lunch.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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Gas is between $1.42 and $1.54 a Gallon and falling in Jackson, Mississippi. When it spiked to $4.00 a gallon many people panicked and bought a smaller car at an exorbitant price. That said, when America's industrial capacity kicks in, there will no doubt be a serious glut of small, cheap, hardy cars flooding the market just like Ford builds in Germany and England for anybody who wants one.
I myself own a small Ford truck (by the way the highest selling small truck in te World is the Ford Ranger).
That said anybody who watches the TV show "COPS" on TV, knows how unlikely the Race sequence I described is to be BS. Our roads are wide and have little trafic in Mississippi, nothing but farmland on either ide of the road, so danger is minimal.
By the way if you go to the "Pensacola News Journal" Monday, June 30, 2008, you will see Jennifer Beckwith's Mustang (not a GT or even the newer more powerful Mustang) hanging on the powerline support cables. Little actual damage to car, two ripped off plastic bumpers, paint damage and fluid leakage. Try it with your Toyota or Nissan some time and see what the bill is. If Jennifer contacts the Musang Club of America there are probably guys who would fix it for the cost of beer and parts.
By the way Canadian Pinko, if you are a native born English Ancestry Canadian you of all people should know how unlikely your cousins to the South ae to be talking "BS" when it come to something like cars or airplanes. We are after all the children of the men who flew those B-17 bomber missions to Berlin in broad daylight when all the rest of the world including those crazy Russians said it was impossible. I am guessing you are a more recent Canadian with a name like Mohammed or Ivan.
The small car fad will pass and having figured out the problem we will sell the technology to the rest of the world.
By the way if you look under the rear wing of a Mustang GT it says it was made i Canada, is that where I should look for the "structural " damage. Ha! Ha! At least it wasn't made by a French socialist.
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" I am guessing you are a more recent Canadian with a name like Mohammed or Ivan."
and the inpolite vikings comes out of the closet.
pathetic he must have nothing under his own hood to compensate like this.
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The small car fad will pass and having figured out the problem we will sell the technology to the rest of the world.
the rest of the world is already years ahead.
america is a weak failure in this regard. PS you say ford I suspect Toyota pick ups.
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By the way if you go to the "Pensacola News Journal" Monday, June 30, 2008, you will see Jennifer Beckwith's Mustang (not a GT or even the newer more powerful Mustang) hanging on the powerline support cables. Little actual damage to car, two ripped off plastic bumpers, paint damage and fluid leakage. Try it with your Toyota or Nissan some time and see what the bill is. If Jennifer contacts the Musang Club of America there are probably guys who would fix it for the cost of beer and parts.
Viking dude,
Isn't the point to avoid hanging one's car from powerlines? Maybe if the Mustang handled better, she could have made the curve, and not put all those people in the dark.
I bet the emergency response teams were very amused. As were the 100's (if not thousands) of people whose electric service was interrupted.
I am guessing you are a more recent Canadian with a name like Mohammed or Ivan.
Now, either you are chain yanking in bad taste, and/or you are a bigot. In either case, statements like that don't look good on you. Surely you can do better? Even the bit about French socialists at the end was a step up. That made me chuckle.
Cheers,
Canadian Pinko
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Re: 209 happylaze
pathetic he must have nothing under his own hood to compensate like this.
Vulcan,
Do you mean one of these hoods?
Cheers,
Canadian Pinko
PS Viking dude, see, you make it just too easy. . .
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Read the full article poor Jennifer was drunk, that's why the car is in the powerlines, not handling. The point is even the slower, smaller old Mustang is sufficiently strong enough and yes powerfull enough to put itself up there.
Pretty incredible for a car in that price range. If you want to see something even more incredible get ahold of the original movie "Gone in 60 seconds" that Mustang hits more garbage cars than you can count, drives through impossible terrain and does a Mustang jump and is a real car, it was all done by real people. Made before animation.
At the Federal Law Enforcement trainig center you know what the cars are racing around the track? Ford Mustangs, Ford Crown Victorias, Chevys.
The point is the big three make a good product, at a good price and have saved a lot of weaker companies from going out of business by buying parts or all of the company. SAAB, Isuzu, Mitsubishi, Jaguar all probably wouldn't be around if it wasn't for cash from the big three. To mess them up with a lot of government interference telling them what to build may be good socialism, but it isn't good sense.
By the way if are going to jump a Mustang remember no low profile tires, steel wheels and good tires. A shock tower strut brace is a good accessory. Burn premium gas that day!
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213 politejomsviking
To mess them up with a lot of government interference telling them what to build may be good socialism, but it isn't good sense.
Viking dude,
OK, I see you are a die hard gearhead, and that's cool. I get my kicks on two wheels, but I understand how you feel.
But somehow you are going to have to disabuse yourself of this notion that the Big 3 are messed up because of governments telling them what to produce. In fact, they (the car Co.'s) have been fighting tooth and nail against tougher Federal emissions regulations for years.
The result: their lineups are swelled with gas guzzlers that only gearhead guys like you want to buy. And, rental cars, like Chevy Malibus. Compare one of these clompers to an Accord, or a Camry, and tell me Detroit is on the right track.
This is going to shock you, but most people don't care how fast their car does the 1/4 mile, or how long it takes to get from 0 to 60, or even if they can mod the thing up and jump it. They commute to work, in stultifying traffic, and want something to get them there and back reliably, efficiently, and in reasonable comfort. Hence the top selling cars in the USA today are the Toyota Camry and the Honda Accord. Prius, Echo, Fit, etc. follow close behind.
The Big 3 are asking for billions of dollars of public money because they can't survive without it. Nobody is going to give it to them if they simply promise to provide more of the same.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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213 the fact that she was drunk does not mean the car has good handling.it is possible that she was drunk and the car has crap handling .
just look at a real test of driving and handling like a rally as opposed to a knuckle-head race with no corners or a big circle race like the pathetically excluding nascar circuit where they cannot let forners compete in case they show american cars are crap.
I see ford do well with the Focus Hardly an america style muscle car.
Wow look even them french with their surrendermonkey citrons do pretty well.
American cars have crap handling that is why they cannot compete well on the world circuit.
The reason the feds use them to train is because they have SUCH BAD handling they assume if you can drive one of these you could drive anything.
you got some bad logic there dud
212Pinko that'll do for starters.
lol for the comments.
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Thank you for your comment. I will pass along your thoughts to Senator Wicker next time I see him.
It is the opinion of some foreigner that the world's largest highway and cement road system being built in straight lines to speed travel is hampering the ability of the US Auto industry to build cars suitable to drive on twisty little goat trails. Better get with the Germans too, their Autobahn is also designed for high speed travel. Obviously, we should re-tool and build some Trabants, Renaults, Fiats,Yugos and Skodas, so we can capture the valuable third world trade. Maybe we could come up with a space age replacement for the pointy goat hearding stick or your woven reed sleeping matt.
Do we need to re-tool Boeing to build only old Soviet Bi-planes or do you think you will be able to handle the US idea about straight cement runways, or will that also be too complicated for you.
By the way all cars at Nasscar are the same car, it's called the CAR of The Future (COF for short). Yes, even that great Amerian car company Toyota (ha, ha) has to run the same car. By the way, I can't think of any foreign car I would want to be in on the track at Talladega when a driver of the Calibre of Earnhart or Gordon bumps your bumper at 270 mph to encourage you to get out of the way. Bumping, drafting and sling shotting are all legal, same as on the street.
Mazda, Honda, Mercedes, BMW, Volkswagon, Nissan all qualify to compete at Talladega and the Daytona 500, since they have factories here and are therefore domestic manufacturers, but don't. All talk but nobody but Toyota and big 3, running for the big prize.
By the way that is a Toyota Prius in the picture on the home page about slumping Auto sales. Predictable, a fad. The Camrys will be around long after the Prius is scrap.
You might want to check out Pen & Teller Hybrids on Utube.
If I did drive a foreign car it would be a SCION TC (would need chilled NOS system and too many other changes to list), but next years car will probably be a silver Vette with a mirror stripe.
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216.
the romans built straighter roads than you guys.
and boy aren't you a "thinker".
and a knuckle-head
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a knuckle head for sure
but thats still better than a bushie.
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but if they don't change the cars they make they won't be making many for very long.
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Viking,
I'm afraid you're gonna have to get used to the Prius:
With the overall decline in combined light duty vehicle sales of 14% from September to October, however, hybrids managed to nudge up their total market share very slightly from 1.45% in September to 1.48% in October.
Toyota not only was once again the leader in hybrid sales in October, it increased its combined unit sales to 14,173 from 13,021 the month before, a jump of 8.8%. The Prius did the heavy lifting, with 9,939 units sold (a 21% increase from the prior month), while the Highlander and Rx400h hybrids saw slight declines to 2,330 and 1,904 respectively.
November was not as good, I think, but with gas prices falling as they have been that's not exceptional. Now if you think they aren't going to go up again, maybe Oily Cassandra can talk some sense into you.
And a Vette? Not. Go Ford or go home.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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I should clarify, I have a beach house in Florida also, I only want the vette for the non-rusting bodies, by the Gulf of Mexico.
I will still keep two Mustang GTs, a jeep a Ford truck and an old Escort. My bike is an Avis Schwarzt BMW K-100 RS.
The bike is foreign, but classic. The rest like me bleeds pure Blue Oval.
I had to sell a black Mercury Marauder when my Mom had Cancer. It was from Canada and Superchared. I loved that car. Like a cop car on steroids. If you ever see one get it. I had a set of silver metal fangs fabricated for the black metal grill and silver coffin handles replacing the Mercury ones.
I really miss that car. What I really want to add to the collection is a Ford GT.
Toyota does make a nice vehicle the FJ Cruiser, but it like everything needs a bigger engine.
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Justin:
Republicans have always had distrust against unions for most of the past 30 years....
The reason: is union members are in favour of the democratic party...most of the time...
[this is my own opinion...]
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#222
The opposite could be said for democrats as well
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Re: 221 Viking
Toyota does make a nice vehicle the FJ Cruiser, but it like everything needs a bigger engine.
LOL ... OK, gearhead. Just remember, as Brother Davies sang it:
Use that gas wisely, 'cuz it ain't gonna last forever, my motor maniac friend.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7796806.stm
looks like the commies may win after all.
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This is a technology issue. A lot of the technology has already been developed. In example the M-1 Abrams tank (by all measure a big fast vehicle) uses a flexible fuel system that allows it to burn anything from jet fuel to heavy diesel. Tubo-chargers have been around, since the 1930 I believe and they are replacing gas with AIR, the Turbo is powered by the exhaust, so it is essentually free power. I would like to see more developement of carbon fibre technology and other aircraft technologys (turbo fans, small jet aceleration boost). But the most promising is the bottom of the sea drilling technology, being developed in the United States (See the Magazine Popular mechanics). If the oil production platform is robotic and the at the bottom of the Ocean instead of at the surface there really is no limit to the depth of drilling in the Gulf of Mexico. That means the free world would have access to an almost supply, right here in the US. T
This would effectively collapse the Putin government and Iran economically, because thier economies are so depandent on sellling the energy commodities. Unfortuneately, it would also colapse several US allies like the Saudis and United Arab Emerates, so we have to release this slowly. Maybe initially the US Government should continue to pump large amounts of crude into the Louisiana Salt domes, so we do not destabilise the world. Not least of the problem is how to remove dictators who like to play with military toys like, Putin, Chavez, that nut in Iran, without harming the countries and creating a power vacum.
By the way, Putin's claim to the oil in Canada's Arctic is not going to happen without her starting a nuclear exchange with the US, so they may want to pick up the little flag and go home, without the public humiliation. Russias accessable energy supplies are limited by her oil technology. If Russia was really going to be a real player, she would be investing in oil technologys instead of more antique Soviet weaponry.
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Popular Mechanics sounds a bit optimistic about a new bounty of cheap deep oil. Cheap oil is relatively shallow (a mile vs. miles to drill) and the Middle East leads in such resources. Going offshore and then pushing the envelope of water depth just adds to the cost of each barrel extracted. There will be more challenging oil resources developed in decades to come, but they will almost certainly produce gasoline that costs more per gallon than milk, unlike the low prices we've been used to and now see returning after the $4+ per gallon spike. That pricier future oil can still be a source for plastics, fertilizer, medicine, lubricants, and all the other things we need oil for besides cheap gasoline.
If there was an oil embargo, we might do what we are doing now - drive less, and there would be an economic incentive to develop harder-to-reach resources in the USA. Until the cost of oil stays high for the long term, such domestic resources would only be developed by government mandate, and many would argue that the extra cost is better spent on other energy programs than a rush for domestic drilling. OPEC wants to raise rates now so they get more revenue, but not so much to cause another shock that wakes up addicts like us to find a new energy source. And now natural gas producers want to form a cartel being cheer-led by Russia.
As impressive as the Abrams tank is, I don't think a few MPG on any fuel is a model for biodiesel or ethanol in our future. GM already makes a lot of flex-fuel cars in response to government mandated ethanol or E-85 use. GM also has the new variable displacement V-8s that change the # cylinders in use based on horsepower demand that are pretty smooth, and Honda does this too as a V-3-4-6 engine. I was surprised when my 3-hour drive to a job site in a rented Tahoe got 20 mpg highway with that system in use. In the upper Midwest where propane is used quite a bit, farmer's co-ops and rural propane distributors seem to offer more fueling locations than other parts of the country, and what I've seen there (again, mostly GM car and truck propane conversions) makes me think T Boone Pickens has a point about natural gas as a vehicle fuel (NG and propane leave a lot less carbon residue, so engines & lube oil last longer too!).
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227 bluejay
the brits have had natural Gas ambulances for years.
they work and most houses have Natural gas.
GM invented the hybrid but thanks to the knucklehead mentality of america they also buried it.
Lol The Japs were not so dumb.
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Re: 224 Bad Link. Supposed to be Kinks here? Mea Culpa.
Re: 227 bluejay60 Great post! Thanks.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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Happy pinko liberal day up north.
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