Soft imperalism
In Cleveland to see Bruce Springsteen (and That One) I am struck again by how American world dominance has a twin track approach, its purposes to achieve.
There is the McCain approach - fight the good fight. And there is the approach of the American left - seduction, for want of a better word. Springsteen is a lefty but he is also an agent of American dominance - few people of my age (47) in the western world would not instantly recognise him and be able to hum a few of his songs. He is a part of my life, and yours. He would not consider himself an imperialist but his soft imperialism is what so upsets anti-Americans who think that Springsteen and his record labels and acolytes are somehow foisting themselves on us all. They are not. We invite them in and we will continue to invite them in.
American military power - celebrated so strongly at Republican rallies I have attended recently - can never have the potency of a Springsteen song, hummed from New Jersey to Jeddah, from Moscow to Cape Town. If Obama becomes president, what happens to the American brand?
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Well, as much of the world has a low opinion of America primarily due to the Bush Administration, it will likely raise the world opinion of America (Except perhaps in Israel and Georgia.) However, given how Obama's foreign policy is similar to Bush's in numerous aspects (Both favor Israel over other Mideast nations, both favor tough action against Iran, despite evidence, both favor isolating Russia) It is likely that the good will may go down over time.
Oh, BTW, I'm a pollworker and I would be glad to talk to the BBC on election night to give them the local results. Who should I contact? (In 2004, I worked with Radio Five Live...)
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Justin - (this is the guy who said hi to you on the way out of the rally). Thanks for the election coverage - I share the BBC site with almost all who I come inot contact with! Hopefully Obama gets elected and can get enought short term support (then momentum) to makes some changes in the country.
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The Obama brand will seduce the world, to use your terms, in the same way that Springsteen songs do now. I'm from Ireland, male, 38 years old, now living in Canada, and I grew up humming -- and singing! -- Springsteen songs in a small Irish town; so I know what you're talking about. Perhaps that was "soft imperialism"; but I wasn't bombed, and so such imperialism (if it is imperialism -- I'll get to that in a moment) seems infinitely superior to hard, military imperialism. Just a thought: if imperialism is the policy of extending one's country's power and influence through diplomacy or military force, as my dictionary would have me believe, then surely for any activity to be correctly described as imperialistic it must be undertaken with the more or less explicit intention of so extending power; this can hardly be said of Springsteen's music -- indeed, it would be an insult to Springsteen to attribute to him such ulterior motives! Propaganda can be imperialistic, as can military force. But unless we want to call Springsteen's music propaganda, then it's not imperialistic. Anyhow, having said that, if we allow for your "soft imperialism", then I think that the world will prefer it -- as I did in my childhood (unknowingly!) -- to being bombed or threatened by hard military imperialism.
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Justin,
It changes, we hope for the better. And who knows where it will be in 4 years? After all, this is America.
Optimist Sam
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Bruce Springsteen is "an agent of American dominance"? Justin, you're nuts. That's like saying The Beatles were an agent of British "dominance". On the charts maybe, but not representative of America in the least. Even Barbra Streisand, whose high-profile politics are well known, and arguably more influential that 'The Boss', cannot be seen to be an "agent of American dominance".
"what happens to the American brand?"
For a start, it does not rely solely on its military might. America will be seen as a kindlier and more benevolent nation. I have little doubt that should he become President, Mr Obama would adopt that African proverb, made popular by Theodore Roosevelt, "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far."
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Justin, What do you mean by saying "If Obama becomes president......"
HE IS POTUS.
Live with it, or go back to blighty.
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Does anyone know how the timings for Tuesday work? I can't remember exactly how it was 4 years ago.
What time, roughly, do the polls open and close (UK time)? And do the results filter through one by one or do they release a batch of a few states at a time once the counting has been done?
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Congratulations, Justin, on a completely pointless post. Lots of words but absolutely no meaning whatsoever.
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Springsteen a lefty? He's a musician, not a politician.
American brand? What does that mean, anyway?
This is the most incoherent post from Webb yet, I think.
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"American military power - celebrated so strongly at Republican rallies I have attended recently - can never have the potency of a Springsteen song, hummed from New Jersey to Jeddah, from Moscow to Cape Town. If Obama becomes president, what happens to the American brand? "
Seems ol' Justin might be a little awe struck by The Boss. Who gives a toss about Bruce Springsteen in relation to the US election. He maybe left or right or in the middle. It makes no difference.
It makes just as little difference as Matt Damon's thoughts on Sarah Palin (which I totally agree with).
The only thing that America exports to the rest of world now is War (oh and military bases. Oops I also forgot to mention democracy or liberty, just like in Iraq and Afghanistan.
American military power hey ? The power to blow people and things up indiscriminately.
The American military may have the power to destroy things but have turned the US into the most despised nation on the planet in doing so.
"If Obama becomes president, what happens to the American brand? "
If Obama becomes president the American brand will be the same as it is today. The "American Brand" has a lot of work to do to become a likeable brand again.
America's reputation in the world as a beacon of hope and liberty and all the other warm and fuzzy words that get bandied about, is in tatters. I don't mind Americans as such but I can't stand America. The USG has been like a bunch of foxes guarding the hen house.
Almost like a cross between the Mafia and the Nazi's have been running (and ruining) America since 2000 and it has been an absolute disaster.
I actually like Vladimir Putin and Russia now because of the counter balance they offer against the blatantly criminal cabal that has been "protecting" in the last eight years.
The American brand is now rubbish. McCain and Palin will just continue the plight but at foot to the floor speed.
However, I see a glimmer of hope in Obama, albeit only a glimmer but I guess it is better than the alternative.
If McCain/Palin somehow win, that will be the sealer for me. It will confirm to me that America has gone nuts and I will pour scorn on them forever and a day.
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Justin, I think you are losing it.
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Justin, To put it another way, you risk becoming inconsequential.
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It seems certain that Obama will win. Hopefully he will sincerely try to fix our problems. For starters, he will hopefully help us stop trying to be the world's policeman. And next, he may be able to free us from an oil-based economy. That alone will probably solve a lot of our war probelms as well. [I'm sure we wouldn't have cared half so much about Saddam if he wasn't sitting on so much oil]
It's a sigh of relief for me. If McCain was more likely to win, I'd be nervous he'd die and we'd be stuck with Palin. Horrors. I've been a lifelong Republican, but I just can't stand McCain or Palin.
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If Justin's posts of the last few weeks are anything to go by getting a post at the BBC must be incredibly easy.
Although I'm flattered to considered a seductress at my age. Quick, get me Alan Rickman's address!
Goodnight all.
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'Springsteen is a lefty but he is also an agent of American dominance - '
What?
He's a talented, compelling pop singer, brilliant songwriter, a consummate showman and entertainer, and definitely an international star.
He's an inspiring success story, who works very hard at his business, and has the 'magic touch' that makes it all look easy, once he hits the stage.
Just like the Beatles, Elton John, Elvis, U2, Sinatra, Dolly Parton, the BeeGees, the list goes on. Each of them created music that everybody loves or at least recognizes.
It's a cosmopolitan list, in reality. Success in the American market helped fuel their successes everywhere else, and their music (if not specifically American) has a very 'American' fingerprint.
The creativity unleashed in twentieth century American music did come to dominate much of the world. This is where Edison began to create the technology, where copyright law and the means to enforce it were developed to great extent, where the radio/tv/film industries flourished in an atmosphere of freedom. It's where a great deal of talent escaped from the chaos of Europe's politics and pogroms, and flourished in our freedom.
Hindemith, Bartok, Rachmaninoff and Stravinksy immediately come to mind. Gershwin, Irving Berlin, Bernstein and Previn were children or grandchildren of immigrants who arrived with little more than brains and ambition.
'American military power...can never have the potency of a Springsteen song, hummed from New Jersey to Jeddah, from Moscow to Cape Town.'
Well, in a real way, yes. Different sorts of power are called for in for different situations. Bin Laden's followers hate any kind of music, it seems, and ban it where they can, so I doubt The Boss would do much for them. But Billy Joel concerts in Moscow, and performances of Shostakovich 4th Symphony here do much to bridge gaps between us and Russia, for instance.
If we could just deploy the New York Philharmonic to every hotspot instead of the Marines...it's a fond thought! But sometimes, sadly, only the Marines will do.
If Obama wins, what happens to our brand?
Temporarily, everyone will cheer, champagne all around. On the long pull, I fear he will harm it, as Jimmy Carter did by his inept fumblings.
Truly, I hope I'm wrong on this one, if he wins. I worked overseas during the Carter administration. It was no fun trying to explain him to my colleagues, all of whom admired America, and were perplexed by his behaviour.
I always notice much more good will 'on the street' overseas than in the overseas press.
Good post. Don't let people beat you up about it.
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It's not American imperialism - it's rich people in America and their overseas rich people allies who pull the levers of the power this country possesses. History is written by rich people sending armies to fight, applying pressure here and applying it there, but ascribing any of it to nations is missing the point. The world is run by aristocracies engaged in a giant conspiracy to keep hold of what they have and adding to it if possible. It's the War of the Mafias. It's how the human monkey is made.
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5. David_Cunard wrote:
"What happens to the American brand."
For a start, it does not rely solely on its military might. America will be seen as a kindlier and more benevolent nation. I have little doubt that should he become President, Mr Obama would adopt that African proverb, made popular by Theodore Roosevelt, "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far."
Well, there we have it, you see. The rest of the world will still assume the brand stands for 'the big stick'. It's just that 'speaking softly' (does that remind me of a song?) will be at least a temporary relief from the pseudo-imperialist militaristic stridency of the last eight years.
Look at the 'brand image' that's been portrayed nearly every time Bush or Cheney have appeared in public over the last few years: uniforms to the left of them, uniforms to the right of them, uniforms to the front of them, uniforms behind them . . .flags the size of car parks. . .hundreds of searchlights forming an arch of light (ooops, sorry, no, that was another brand, wasn't it?).
We could do with at least a softer image.
As for singers promoting a cultural identity (a 'brand'?) look at what Johnny Halliday has done for France . . .
Somehow, though, I can anticipate how this thread is going to develop, so I'm going to stick with my books. Maybe sneak into the HMV shop later (heavily disguised) and buy a Springsteen CD . . .
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Someone asked about poll closing times. Here's a great state-by-state map, although the times are EST not GMT as some readers might prefer: http://www.swingstateproject.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=3641
I don't get all the people hammering of Justin's posts. Folks, this is a blog -- can we lighten up a bit?
As a matter of fact, the question of America's brand is a great one -- because if we want to keep being a great exporter of culture and ideas, much of it starts with good marketing. I think an Obama win shows the world that America is the anything-is-possible place we always told them it is.
A McCain win doesn't completely destroy the brand, I must admit. Many cultural icons (Springsteen included) use The Man as a foil. If Obama loses, that approach actually becomes much more powerful. Great for record and video sales, but poor for, say, bringing real democracy to Afghanistan. But I think most Americans nowadays are focused on the former than the latter.
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Justin, I believe it is what Joseph Nye termed 'soft power'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power
His book 'Soft Power' is a brilliant read by the way.
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Justin, I believe it is what Joseph Nye termed 'soft power'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power
his book 'soft power' is a brilliant read by the way
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15, OldSouth.
"Truly, I hope I'm wrong on this one, if he (Obama) wins. I worked overseas during the Carter administration. It was no fun trying to explain him to my colleagues, all of whom admired America, and were perplexed by his behaviour."
I was overseas at the same time. I never tried to make excuses for Carter and told everybody he was a jerk. He was the sort of insular American that should never have left home. The consumate foreign affairs expert was Richard Nixon. I am hoping for the same quality in Obama, which is why I voted for him, but only time will tell.
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The majority of Americans voted against the industrial/military complex in the elections two years ago when they voted in the Democratic majority. Tragically, Madame Pelosi did not follow through on this mandate from the people and we have once again spoken by our support of Obama and his "Springsteen" approach to life. We are the majority and our message of no more immoral illegal wars will be practiced in Obama;s administration. International War Lords Bush and Cheney and Haliburton need to hang up their swords.
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15. OldSouth wrote:
[To Justin] "Don't let people beat you up about it."
Oh they will, they will.
But I'm waiting for the penny to drop with some of the regulars about "[America] its purposes to achieve". . .
Could be a while, so I thought I'd offer a hint, since Justin was being a little bit mysterious there ;-)
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21. allmymarbles wrote:
"The consumate foreign affairs expert was Richard Nixon. I am hoping for the same quality in Obama. . ."
Yes, I quite look forward to a little 'soft power' in the form of the next John Adams opera but one, "Obama in Iran." Wonder if he'll have it ready for next year's BBC Proms season?
Hope Obama doesn't become another Secret Service recording star, though.
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MYSTERY SOLVED
JOE THE PLUMBER IS MR. CLEAN.
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#17. At 05:30am on 03 Nov 2008, british-ish:
Mr Obama would adopt that African proverb, made popular by Theodore Roosevelt, "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far."
"Well, there we have it, you see. The rest of the world will still assume the brand stands for 'the big stick'. It's just that 'speaking softly' (does that remind me of a song?) will be at least a temporary relief from the pseudo-imperialist militaristic stridency of the last eight years."
Whoever wins, the world will continue to assume the brand stands for 'big stick'. No-one wants to disband the military, but under a Democratic president, there will be a more nuanced approach - without the 'stridency of the last eight years.' What more can you want?
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Justin, you seem to have lost the plot completely with this barmy posting (and the previous two I must add!). I can't help but think you have gone completely soft on, or for, McCain - perhaps you're now belatedly trying to show some degree of BBC impartiality by viewing him more favourably since the beeb has taken a bit of flack (with much of the media) for being too pro Obama? Nevermind it will all be over Tuesday night and then you can hopefully get back to reflecting on the train wreck that was the McCain-Palin campaign. Unlike your most recent posting that is surely going to be interesting!
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Ever listened to Joel Rafael singing "This Is My Country" Justin? It is one hell of a song.
You must look at the video on his website.
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Not your strongest piece Justin, but I see the poor attempt at comparing past and present elections with todays BBC saga.
Indirectly linking the maverick stier that is Mccain with a "Ross " that upset the balance in an earlier USA election and a self styled "Willie Wonka" figure named Brand who has recently left your employ.
The brand that is America will finally return to its status of the past, just as long as the new trail boss does not use the heated irons, that are its military power, to burn its mark on a 101 rustled countries that do not require its "help"
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26. David_Cunard
"under a Democratic president, there will be a more nuanced approach - without the 'stridency of the last eight years.' "
Well, I do hope for that. I just don't feel very confident about it, having read (and heard) some of Obama's words on Iran, Pakistan and Israel.
I just hope they were phrased so as to avoid otherwise inevitable accusations of 'appeaser!" or whatever that we read so often from the right here.
(What a relief they haven't put in their usual appearance yet. They'll no doubt turn up and have a go at me later, but I really can't be bothered with them any more.
I mean, DMT didn't even hang around long enough to read my corrections on his/her/its silly assumptions about my dress sense in the last thread! I don't mind attacks on my politics, but I really object to any on my fashion sense. That's really hitting below the belt. . .)
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Justin,
Please let's separate politics from entertainment. The Boss is much like Steinbeck, an artist bent on creating the forgotten man in his own image.
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31. A Ridge57 wrote:
"Justin,
Please let's separate politics from entertainment."
You can seriously ask anyone to do that? After this year?
You can't. (Billy Bragg, Live Aid, U2, protest songs generally -- back to the thirties and before -- broadsheet ballads that turn into nursery rhymes . . spirituals . . .where have you been?)
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british-ish # 30
What a load of tosh!
Just to be of help . { Hate to think that you will suffer delerium tremens so early in the morning without your usual fix}
wma
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30, ishish.
Obama's agressive talk about Iran, Afthanistan, and Pakistan, only came after McCain accused him of being a weakling. Before that he had talked solely of negoations and face-to-face meetings. I trust the former Obama is the true man. Once a campaign gets a little stale everyone starts to adjust, swivel, and adapt.
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31. Ridge57 wrote:
"The Boss is much like Steinbeck, an artist bent on creating the forgotten man in his own image."
??????? I'm lost.
Steinbeck? Don't you mean Hemingway?
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The wonderful thing about American music is that at its best it combines the best elements of musical traditions from all over the world. American music is "world music" avant la lettre, so to speak. My dad used to hum Louis Armstrong tunes. For me music is the greatest American contribution to world culture. Far preferable to Coke and Pepsi and McDonald's and what have you.
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"As for singers promoting a cultural identity (a 'brand'?) look at what Johnny Halliday has done for France . . ."
I heard on the radio that he's now an advisor to president Sarkozy. At leats that's what Sarah Palin now believes ;)
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How anyone can be "seduced" by the mindless ranting droning lyrics and a voice that is more of a shriek than a siren is beyond me. If Bruce Springstein can seduce the world, then we live in a world of fools.
The United States appears to be about to elect the most underqualified person ever to occupy the Oval Office. This is like putting a ten year old who once took a ride on a light cruiser at the helm of a 100,000 ton air craft carrier with 6000 crewmen. If the Democrats sweep both houses of Congress, they are likely to be eager to please him at least for awhile.
It will be a miracle if he doesn't get us into a depression or a nuclear war or both. He's likable, he's intelligent, but he hasn't got anything like the training or experience in government or leadership it would take to run the Executive Branch of the US government even in quiet times. Heaven help us we are all doomed. Nobody else will.
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#10. ref.
redagast, your comments about America show that you have a complete lack of understanding about America and a hostile disposition that cannot be reasoned with. You claim that you "don't mind Americans as such, but [you] can't stand America?. Now, how is any reasonable American supposed read that and not feel the hate? America is not some Authoritarian Dictatorship whose citizens have no say; America is a Democratic Republic with institutions that cannot operate and make serious policy decisions without input from the voters and the separate branches of the gov. It's fine if you hate our policies, but I take offense when you attack the Locke inspired institutions and ideals that are the fabric of American society and equate them with the Mafia or the NAZIs. Such nonsense will not endear Americans to you and they will not believe you when you say that you don't mind them.
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Losing this thread, but then for me that does not take much.
Are you talking about the Ernest, the Edie or the Gerry Hemingway?
Are you still discussing music?
Good morning Marcus. Steadying the ship as of old ,pouring oil on troubled waters and then setting it alight!
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A President Barack Obama will either be the next Kennedy at best or the next Carter at worst. If he turns out to be Kennedy re-incarnate, let?s just hope that he doesn't have his own Bay of Pigs in the works.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
33. watermanaquarius wrote:
"british-ish # 30
What a load of tosh!
Just to be of help . { Hate to think that you will suffer delerium tremens so early in the morning without your usual fix}
wma"
Well, I was right about one thing, that's for sure. How is it some people can only resort to defamation? Any reason I shouldn't refer your post to the moderators for breaking the House Rules? Be personal, why not?
(I won't, merely so others can see on the record what some do resort to. Even early in the morning when they've obviously either not got their brains together or they got out of bed on the wrong side.)
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34. allmymarbles
I'll drink to that.
(Oops. Shouldn't have said that at this time in the morning. Hic.)
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#30. british-ish: "under a Democratic president, there will be a more nuanced approach - without the 'stridency of the last eight years.' "
"Well, I do hope for that. I just don't feel very confident about it . . ."
Certainly it's not going to change overnight in January, but I don't think we'll see any unilateral invasions as in Iraq. Nevertheless, it's better than the alternative.
With regard to your fashion sense, it sounds OK to me, except for the 'designer' jeans which are in themselves a bit retro! The image of tweed jackets and leather patches is almost dead but back in the 50s and 60s a decent pair of Levis or Wranglers were virtually unavailable in the UK and the only place they could be bought was a shop in the World's End part of the Fulham Road. Quite irrelevant to your post, but for many the thought of British men's clothing is stuck in times past - and probably pre-Carnaby Street! There is no equivalent to Stella McCartney dressing men; remember, David "squeaky-voice" Beckham promotes an American brand below the belt.
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I find it interesting how people cannot understand the reference to soft-imperialism. It is a form of cultural imperialism; an imperialism through the creation of the aspiration to be like...; the manufacture of a desire to identify with...
Its really not that hard to understand. The power of soft imperialism comes from changing the identity of 'the other' and not through forcefully imposing political or economic change.
Those who fail to understand 'soft imperialism' probably have little experience of living outside of the US - or maybe outside of the supposed 'West'. But for those of us who do not live in the West, soft imperialism is a simple thing to identify. We see it all the time and experience it daily.
Take hip-hop for instance. That style of music has taken much of Africa by storm. But it is not only the style of singing that has been adopted, it is what the music represents too. Youth from Cairo to Johannesburg echo the hip-hop form of lyric construction and they also adopt much of the US hip hop lingo, speech intonation, and try and wear the style clothes of their US hip hop icons. I have seen research that also says that if you ask many of these kids where they could travel to - if they had the chance - 'America' tops their list.
What seems to be the attractive feature of the US for them is the opulence they see in their icons - 'bling culture'. Admittedly that bling culture requires a prior narrative - 'the land of opportunity' - to be so effective in the creation of aspirations among non-US youth. But one cannot rule out the fact that hip hop artists in the US have played a role in colonising the consciousness of non-US youth around the world. Music as a form of imperialism?
And so it could be with Bruce Springsteen. I don't think Justin is trying to say that Springsteen himself (or hip hop) is an imperialist or wants to be imperialistic but that Springsteen straddles an awkward position whereby he is a 'rebel' whose music has produced unintended, complex, and maybe contradictory consequences.
Reading the debates about this blog leaves me wondering about the level of denial with which many US citizens must live. Yes, there is anger and humiliation among many US citizens about Bush and his policies. Yes, many people do not want the expansionist, bully-boy tactics that have characterized the Bush regime for so long. Yes there is a desire for 'change'.
But while Obama seems a better candidate than McCain, he will not stop the US from being a force of imperialism. Imperialism is part of the nature of the US at present: unintentionally, by virtue of the position that the US holds in geopolitics (as in 'soft imperialism'); and intentionally, since the US's geopolitical power rests on deliberate economic imperialism and has since at least the end of WW2.
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#38. MarcusAureliusII: "(Obama's) likable, he's intelligent, but he hasn't got anything like the training or experience in government or leadership it would take to run the Executive Branch of the US government even in quiet times."
At the present time, it would appear that a majority of Americans feel that way about Mr McCain and his potential successor. America cannot afford to gamble on McCain's health or his temper, which is ill-suited to the Oval Office. Neither does it want a fisherman's wife waiting in the wings, Eve Harrington to his Margo Channing.
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Dear british-ish #43
You disappoint me. I had you down as one of the more intelligent and amusing contributors on this blog.
Perhaps you felt my comment referred to your earlier taste in clothing and any remark on that subject is off limits for a gentleman. I did not see the comment as being personal.
I must remember next time to throw in a little "colour", religious belief , or similar bone for you to get your teeth into, but that is not me at all .
You wrote "I mean, DMT didn't even hang around long enough to read my corrections on his/her/its silly assumptions......"
You appeared to be suffering from the absence of a contradictory approach and I thought I was supplying it with the understandable humour.
My apologies if I upset you so early in the morning, but at least it has got your aggressive mode working on all 6 cylinders.
regards wma
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45. David_Cunard wrote:
". . .remember, David "squeaky-voice" Beckham promotes an American brand below the belt."
Is that why his voice is squeaky? The current American brand has got him by the ellipsoidal objects (trying to escape the mods, I can't fathom their criteria any more) as with so many others, a couple of countries included?
:-D
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48. watermanaquarius
OK, sorry, I misunderstood.
It's just that the appearance of MAII (usually followed in short order by putn-it-on and the others) especially this early tends to make me suspect the worst.
And, sorry again, the DMT/fashion thing was meant for David who knew what it was about from the previous thread.
I shouldn't really try to kill two baby seals with one helicopter gunship, as Governor Palin might say.
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46 segoye:
Yes, I thought that was what this was really supposed to be about.
Still, I seem to remember Tony Blair's lecture a while back (in Chicago, was it?) on 'soft power v. hard power' fell on pretty stony ground in the US at the time.
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Justin, you have confirmed my suspicions that
we could win over the "hearts and minds" of all
of those nasty people who would do us harm
if we just pulled all of our troops out of the
middle east and replaced them with a few
hundred Elvis impersonators, dressed up in
local garb.
That's the real reason that the Japanese haven't
attacked us lately - they're terrified that they'll
hit Graceland by mistake.
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and british-ish, ease up on the baby seals, will ya?
If you really need to dress up, be a man and
use a club like the locals do.
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A fact remains that there may be financial crisis in American Markets, still the almighty dollar rises against all currencies. People think it is safer tokeep money in US $ than others. That is not imperialism but a common sense which is over and above all the received and politically correct wisdom.
I will vote for MacCain rather than politically correct Obama. He can be compared with Saint Sonia of my country India. That is the fate of two great democracies in the world
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# 46
Thanks to Segoye for unscrambling Justin Webb's thoughts.
We are on to a subject well worthy of debate - American cultural imperialism, its past which influenced the whole world since Mark Twain right through the twentieth century, its decline since 2000, and its future.
Much of the rest-of-the-world's admiration for Obama is influenced by a perception that he would restore the former marvel of American culture in all its forms.
Outside America, McCain appears to epitomise the military belligerence which has dominated since the turn of the century and which has drowned out the historically benign powers of the American philosophy of personal freedom.
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53. gunsandreligion wrote:
"and british-ish, ease up on the baby seals, will ya?
If you really need to dress up, be a man and use a club like the locals do."
OK, I'll stick to meeses, then. (It's just that I enjoyed the baby seal thing so much.)
You mean a club like The Atheneum? Don't think they'd let me in. (I actually had a meeting there once, and I had terrible problems with the doorman.) And I don't fancy the Monster in Sheridan Square, either.
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52, gunsandreligion wrote:
Justin, you have confirmed my suspicions that we could win over the "hearts and minds" of all of those nasty people who would do us harm if we just pulled all of our troops out of the middle east and replaced them with a few
hundred Elvis impersonators
You have a point there. Could make things a lot worse.
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39. At 07:20am on 03 Nov 2008, BienvenueEnLouisiana wrote:
#10. ref.
redagast, your comments about America show that you have a complete lack of understanding about America and a hostile disposition that cannot be reasoned with. You claim that you "don't mind Americans as such, but [you] can't stand America?. Now, how is any reasonable American supposed read that and not feel the hate? America is not some Authoritarian Dictatorship whose citizens have no say
Ok, maybe a little harsh, but I believe that I have a pretty reasonable understanding of America with a mildly hostile disposition that can be reasoned with.
The American people I have met, for the most part are the same as anywhere else in the world. There are nice people and some not so nice people.
By saying that I can't stand America, I can't stand a country whose Government (the one put in power by the so called majority of its people) lies its way into a war at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives, and with a cost of trillions of dollars.
All the while your own country and a lot of its people are in dire need of help. But you get no help from a Government who in my opinion are a bunch of criminals and war criminals, hence my reference to the Mafia and the Nazi's.
I cannot stand what America stands for anymore. The foreign and domestic policies of the current administration at this moment in time are apalling.
I know that my view is shared by many outside the US, particularly in Europe, and South America, and Asia and Africa, and Australia. Oh and Canada.
I think we would like for the USA to actually be the beacon of hope it was and has proclaimed to be.
That is why a vast majority of the World polls on the US elections says that Obama would be the preferred choice of rest of the planet.
We just don't want your military at the behest of its Government, to keep blowing people and places up. And lying about it.
And I think a lot of people believ that is exactly what will happen with McCain and Palin.
I apologise if I have offended you or any other person with my rants, it is due to my frustration that McCain can even be considered half a chance against Obama after nominating Sarah Palin on his ticket.
It is the most ridiculous decision ever which should see him get flogged in the polls but something tells me he won't.
We now wait to see which way America heads.
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To digress from our subject :
That McCain's a honorable fellow ?
Having said that he would not use Rev. Wright in his campaign, he then floods the airwaves with a Rev. Wright ad on the final Sunday night of the campaign.
I'm not surprised that he was hoarding it until the end - otherwise we might have heard in response much more about his gambling, the source of his wife's money, his treatment of his first wife, the Keating affair and the truth behind all those plane crashes.
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Guns:
I'll try to be more respectful in future.
It's just that we Brits are so used to seeing politicians as fair game.
Like baby . . .er, wol . .er mee . . .
OK, OK, I can see I'll have to try harder.
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"American military power... can never have the potency of a Springsteen song"
Try telling that to any Fallujahn...
What a ridiculous statement Justin.
Sure, American contemporary culture can infiltrate where the military cannot, but it lacks the military's merciless ferocity.
(re: Fallujah) I hope I'm long dead and buried by the time another city the size of Edinburgh is flattened by foreign forces anywhere in the world.
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You seem to be tying Bruce Springstein to the cultural left, and McCain and the republican righties to the militaristic and classically imperialistic right... then wondering where this leaves Obama.
To me this seems a completely bogus characterisation of left and right; most obviously because music, even good music (however that might be defined) need not be written by a leftie or have anything to do with politics. I would agree that there is a US cultural and ideological imperialism swimming about in the world today, but would argue the division between the two is far more hazy than you seem to realise, and certainly not distinguished by an allegance to the left or the right. Whilst the spreading of 'democracy' and American 'freedom' may be more characteristic of the far right, for several reasons, the cultural imperialism of Holywood and MTV has no relation to any definition of the left, and in my opinion is closely linked with that right wing definition of freedom that they hold so dearly in the US, market freedom.
Music that might fall outside of stricktly mainstream pop need not have anything with the left either. I think, Justin, that you have met a musician that happened to be a bit of a leftie, and mistaken a bit of arrogance imperialism. Next time you have a cultural or sociological epiphany you might be better advised to just keep it to yourself.
Anyway, at least your post was a coherent chain of thought this time. Enjoy the rest of your holyday!
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Dear Justin ,
Are you really 47? If it wasn't a typo you
look very young for your age. Who on earth is
Bruce Springsteen? Never heard of him in NZ.
Heard of Bob Dylan.
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Obama has a fight a good, strong and strategically smart fight. He is the sort of 'brand' that inspires and that will go a long way to improving our image here and abroad.
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Correction- should have read
Obama has fought a good, strong and strategically smart fight. He is the sort of 'brand' that inspires and that will go a long way to improving our image here and abroad.
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I think a lot of you are missing the point. There is a huge desire for anything American around the world. You have youths in Iran whose Parents would burn an American flag tapping their feet to the Beach boys. My Russian Physics professor told me that after the fall of Communism young people in his generation fell in love with American rap. Kim Jung Il if he could get away with it would probably wipe us off the map save Hollywood to feed his addiction to American cinema.
We in the US are the world's best marketers. We could sell sand in the desert if we had to. Why does anyone think there is such interest in the Election. Not solely for the Historical nature or the Political consequences, but the drama. Can anyone tell me of a more dramatic storyline on TV than this years campaign?
The problem with Bush is he's not a marketer, he doesn't understand that the actions you take are not as important as the selling of those actions as just. Had the Selling of the Iraq War been managed as well as the Obama campaign. We'd be hailing the success of an international coalition and the 5th birthday of a new Democracy.
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The Amercan brand is broken - how so ?
Well the Auto industry is bankrupt due to wrong engines - car size at the wrong time
Same for the US AIRLINE industry - bakrupt old planes bad service
Roads - Bridges - All in a bad way due to lack of investment
I know US families who had US cars products etc now 4 people all drive HONDA-TOYOTA -NISSAN and state they will never buy US again- These guy are really solid MID WESTERNERS.
The next administration needs to address these problems.
Rich
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To all readers interested in American culture, I strongly recommend the Start the Week programme on BBC Radio 4. It can be heard on-line on the BBC Radio 4 website
now.
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13 point lead on 2nd Nov in Gallup!
Slightly of task but it looks like that TV ad has nicely crushed all of the ridiculous fear mongering by the McCain campain. Same trend on Washington Post poll as well. :)
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39 BienvenueEnLouisiana:
I tend to avoid this kind of discussion, but it really does lie at the heart of 'The American Brand' now.
I have to admit that I too (and quite a few of my friends in Britain, let alone in France) now wince on hearing an American accent. Simply because we no longer can be really sure which strand of American opinion they belong to.
I was once attacked vehemently by an American tourist, who had overheard myself and a friend talking in a bar for being a "typical commie" (in terms not unlike the more vitriolic ones used by MAII) for example.
I don't think many Americans actually realise the profound shock so many people felt at what happened after Hurricane Katrina. It demonstrated such a huge gap between the 'ideals' we hear so much about and the reality.
We have had nothing on that scale here, of course, but last time we had severe flooding, RAF rescue helicopters and RNLI rubber dinghies were out almost within minutes. I had a number of comments from friends abroad remarking on the contrast.
That has done the 'brand' under Bush as much, perhaps even more, damage than Iraq. (Which hasn't exactly done the 'British brand' a lot of good either.)
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59. eightypercent:
So the (non-Kosher) knives nicked from the McCain QVC show are out, are they?
Can't say it's a surprise. October or any other month. Palin's running the show now then?
(The b*b* s**l* -- don't want to upset guns again -- must have really have got to her.)
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Eightypercent: You are right. I think imperialism is an important question. Though a comment:
"McCain appears to epitomise the military belligerence which has dominated since the turn of the century and which has drowned out the historically benign powers of the American philosophy of personal freedom"
I find the whole thing can be a sad bundle of contradictions. For you are right, at its heart the philosophy of personal freedom is an important one. The ideal of libertarianism - individual autonomy, freedom from oppression etc.
Yet the philosophy on which US political morality was built has not been the one that has defined the engagement of the US with the rest of the world over the past 50 years. It has been far from "benign" for a long time.
What I mean is that the right to individual freedom has been used as a ruse for a long time by the US to interfere in the politics of the rest of the world. And it has done so in order to secure the hegemony of the US in the world system.
One need only think of the various covert destablisation operations waged by the US in the Third World during the Cold War. Various countries in Latin America or Africa whose governments were toppled by US backed forces in the 1960s, 70s and 80s on the pretense of furthering freedom - but actually to secure valuable resources.
In that sense, the present war in Iraq is not essentially different from the kind of international politics that the US has engaged in for a long time. And it is sad that 'Freedom' is the excuse when the reasons lie more likely in furthering US economic interests.
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O will enhance the american brand. The world will love the US for what it truly stands for: be all that you can be irregardless of race, gender and sexual preferences
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I just wanted to say thanks to Justin for hosting this forum, and to all those who engaged in serious, and even frivolous, debate. It's been fun, frustrating, informative and sometimes just plain silly.
For the record I hope that Obama wins well on Tuesday and that he can reunite a fractured USA, and help it to regain it's damaged reputation and become agin a force for good in the world.
As to Bruce Springsteen, I know who I'll be supporting in the 2016 Springsteen - Palin election!!!!
Ciao everyone.
Peace
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I've just seen the transcript of the infamous William Kristol's interview on Fox News.
(Washes out mouth with soap.)
As an example of astonishingly unrealistic optimism (he says he's "got it all worked out" how McCain can win, even though he says it's "implausible but not impossible") you just have to look at his wonderfully contorted argument.
(Readers can google it. I'm not going to put a link here. I'd have to wash my hands and keyboard clean again.)
That explains a lot to me how we got into this wretched mess in Iraq thanks to people like him. And his and the Neocons' 're-branding' of the USA.
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66. Risforme wrote:
I think a lot of you are missing the point.
The problem with Bush is he's not a marketer, he doesn't understand that the actions you take are not as important as the selling of those actions as just. Had the Selling of the Iraq War been managed as well as the Obama campaign. We'd be hailing the success of an international coalition and the 5th birthday of a new Democracy.
I think you may be misinterpreting the point. the Iraq war, and the "War on Terrorism' was heavily marketed by the Neocons and at one time a majority of Americans bought into it very happily.
But you can market a flawed product as much as you like, but it will still fail in the end. There are numerous examples in marketing. Try marketing 'Baby Seal Stew' anywhere outside Governor Palin's house for instance.
And there is a very great gulf between admiration for a cultural identity and any for a politicalone.
It's very wrong to combine the two in terms of their effect, even if they are parts of the same 'brand', as one or two contributors have done, or have accused Justin (wrongly) of doing.
(Oh, I am sorry. I just can't get those animals out of my head . . . Slaps self on wrist.)
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68. eightypercent wrote:
"To all readers interested in American culture, I strongly recommend the Start the Week programme on BBC Radio 4."
It's so tempting:
Reporter: "Mr Gandhi, what do you think of Western culture?"
Gandhi: "I think it would be a very good idea."
(Sorry.)
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I've just watched Reagans ex Chief of Staff endorse Obama during a talk show on CNN. He reckoned that Powells speech was "the good housekeeping seal of approval".
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redagast, segoye - excellent posts
I have been to the US many times and although your comments may shock many Americans, I know that there will be many more who agree.
America is such a large and diverse country, it is almost like having countries within a country, for that reason, many Americans seem to be very insular and unaware about the feelings of those outside. When we speak of 'America' it tends to be a reference to the American government and American militarism not necessarily the American people.
Because there is such a strong right wing element in the US, America in recent times has justifiably been seen as a bully, willing to use force for the slightest reason and threatening other countries who disagree. This attitude seems to stem from those in the country who believe that unbridled capitalism is the only way to run an economy and are terrified that others may prove them wrong, hence the references to sen. Obama as a socialist or commie.
One final point; I've never been able to reconcile a country that considers itself to be civilised yet is willing to judicially murder it's own citizens. Capital punishment should have no place in a civilised society.
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Did Justin pop to the loo as he was penning vague ideas for a piece and a young sub editor picked this up thinking it was finished!
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British my friend - you're very skittish this morning
If you can read a transcript of William Kristol spouting off on Fox News, you can listen to or read a transcript of Start the Week. It is seriously good and you would appreciate the discussion - honest.
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American imperialism, like British imperialism of 150-200 years ago is a distortion of Power, with one winner in the short term. "Soft imperialism" is a shared experience which is balanced and has 2 winners.
The USA political motiations of the past 8 years have been based upon fear, greed and incompetance, a dangerous brew. Why does the US feel the need to be imperial? A need to be in control perhaps? For the past 8 years world politics have been dictated by a few key words and phrases, such as "terrorists", 9/11, "Osama Bin Laden", "Al Qaida", "insurgents", "security threat", all very convenient to justify military might, and military expenditure.
If the US elects Barack Obama, (because the voting process is an accurate reflection of the public's desire), we may see less of the hard military phraseology, and more ideas such as "respect", "mutual benefit", "social responsibility", "cultural exchange", "common problems".
There are enough problems in the US and the world which need resolving outside of the military domain, we need a leader whose vision can encompass these challenges.
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78. David_de_Jong wrote:
"I've just watched Reagans ex Chief of Staff endorse Obama during a talk show on CNN. He reckoned that Powells speech was "the good housekeeping seal of approval"."
Hmmm. Not too sure about the implications underlying 'housekeeping' somehow. But I'm just naturally suspicious about these people . . .
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80. JackKilms wrote:
Did Justin pop to the loo as he was penning vague ideas for a piece and a young sub editor picked this up thinking it was finished!
I think the way it probably works is that certain contributors let fly with libels, unfounded allegations and personal abuse, after a while the moderators get overwhelmed and weary of it, so someone in London (or Bristol, or Manchester or Glasgow, wherever this is run from) emails Justin in the early hours (Washington time), wakes him up and says:
"Look, the lunatics are taking over the asylum again, put another post up fast just to take the pressure off, will you. Anything will do."
(Been a sub-editor myself, you see. Got the T-shirt.)
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Justin, I think you're broadly correct in highlighting the importance - and (cost) effectiveness - of American "soft" imperialism. Music makes for an excellent example, and you could do a lot worse than mention the man who was once dubbed "Loose Windscreen" in that context.
Another good example of soft (and relatively cheap) imperialism is provided by American science at its boldest and most inspiring. The seemingly unstoppable and indestructible Mars Rovers come to mind, as does the Hubble Space Telescope.
And so to a topic you might care to explore: the importance of America putting a black person in the White House (though I'm not counting any chickens just yet) compared with the significance of America putting a man on the Moon. To be considered both from the short- and long-term points of view.
On a closely related subject, your attention is drawn to a serious piece with the commendably provocative title 'Why Does Joe The Plumber Hate Neil Armstrong?' at http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/12972.html. Well worth a read, I think.
On a totally unrelated subject, I suspect I provided a dodgy link yesterday in relation to John McCain being a real-life "Manchurian candidate" - or should that be "MagicKirin candidate"? Either way, the correct link for an entertaining read is http://changeservant.blogspot.com/.
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# Jackturk's post brings back a memory to me.
Years ago, staying for a few days in Nashville, I spent every evening in a little dive called the Possum Holler Club (I think it was owned by George Jones). I was as happy there with the country music washing over me as I've been anywhere.
I can only laugh at myself wading into a debate on American cultural imperialism when all I really want to do is return to the possum holler club (which I'm sure went the same way as George Jones)
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81. eightypercent wrote:
"British my friend - you're very skittish this morning"
It's a Monday. I hate Mondays.
(Did Springsteen ever sing that? All I know is 'Born in the USA'. Must be the wrong age or something. Lot of Springsteen fans seem to be in their mid to late forties -- like Obama, come to think of it -- I've often wondered about that. Sometimes wondered. Er, once or twice.)
I've always wished they would 'Start the Week' on Tuesday.
(And the Kristol thing finished me off as far as anything even vaguely intellectual (ugh!) goes for today. You see I'm trying to fit in here better. But thanks: I'll listen to it on the iPlayer tonight.)
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Apologies - when I checked by clicking on the links in my post #85, I discovered that the "Manchurian candidate" link now works, but the "Why Joe Hates Neil" one doesn't. The problem seems to be the presence of that final period.
So here's that link again, shorn of the show-stopping full stop: http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/12972.html
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The merits of Obama and change?
Malcomd3111: "If the US elects Barack Obama, (because the voting process is an accurate reflection of the public's desire), we may see less of the hard military phraseology, and more ideas such as "respect", "mutual benefit", "social responsibility", "cultural exchange", "common problems""
There may be less militarism, but will there be "respect", "social responsibility" and "mutual benefit"? I am not sure there will.
Imperialism is more complex than simply Cheney, Bush and military intervention.
One of the main causes of imperialism is the need to gain new markets in order to prevent the stagnation of profit. For the global capitalist system is premised on the idea of accumulation and growth. Businesses - especially corporations - are judged to be successful if they can show 'growth'. In the case of corporations, shareholders are invariably attracted to companies which have good track records of growing profits.
A strategy to maintain profitability has been to dominate foreign markets; to expand the US 'sphere of influence'. Often this has meant deliberately undermining and destroying the competitors in foreign markets. It has also meant consistently negotiating unfair terms of trade with foreign countries that benefit the US. Good for the US and its business. Bad for others.
The reasons for imperialism predate the neo-con stranglehold on the White House. They are reasons that motivated the US to engage in imperialist politics prior to Bush and - unless the US wishes to surrender its place as an economic giant among countries in the world - they are reasons that will continue to motivate the US to be imperialistic.
The toss up that US citizens who want "respect" and "social responsibility" should be facing is what price they are willing to pay for those lofty aims. Neither will be realized without challenging imperialism itself.
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British
I hate Mondays was Geldoff and his Boomtown Rats.
Which brings me to U2 who are just about at the Springsteen level with the influence of their songs. Does that lead us on to the world-wide effect of Irish Imperialism.
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#87
British, Lord Bob of Geldof was the author of I Don't Like Mondays, as I'm sure you know well.
As for Springsteen fans being in their forties, you have me to rights. And for what it's worth, I can't listen to Born In The USA now...reminds me too much of stonewashed jeans and cheap cider at university.
Johnny 99 or Downbound Train, on the other hand, regularly pop up on the iPod....
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85: Yes, but I got there all the same. Though I admit to doing the anagram on paper twice, because I couldn't believe it really came out.
(That 'Neil Armstrong' link doesn't work either, but I found that too. But it's all about income tax levels. Interesting ammunition, I admit, but I thought . . .)
Good lord. 84 got through. Must have hit the nail on the head there. Usually if I speculate on the inner workings of the Beeb they chuck it out.
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I hate Mondays. Spoils my nice weekend. Wonder if the presidential candidates hate Mondays too.
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Hey - what about Hollywood. they contribute just as much if not more to the 'American Brand'. Personally I think many of the films Hollywood pumps out paint a vulgar, culture-less and what's much worse, violent picture of America. Much as I abhor, the idea of censorship. maybe someone ought to take a look at each film and decide if it's good for America PR. Or chuck out the producers and writers who churn out such pulp fiction.
I used to think America was essentially a country of decent people. Now I am not so sure. When you watch the schlock on the movies, and read some of the dumb screaming blogs on the internet you have to assume the common politeness has gone out the door.
Having said that, I used to think the same of my own UK countrymen, but now thanks to TV and Murdoch I don't.
Best of luck guys. I still really love ya.
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Dem Foreign Policy:
Dem. Congressman: "Let [Russia] Invade Georgia. It's Right Next to Them."
At an event at a Boca Raton synagogue, Congressman Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) said that the United States should let Russia invade Georgia. Beginning at the 3:50 mark [in a] YouTube video, which was recorded by Pamela Geller of the blog Atlas Shrugs, Nadler says:
We have not been willing to put our priorities properly. We have not been willing to say ... "Hey Russia, we won't expand NATO into the Ukraine and Georgia, right next to your borders, if you cooperate with us on Iran."...
"I think Iran and Israel are a hell of a lot more important than expanding NATO to Russia's borders. Why should we? What do we need it for?"
Someone in the crowd says: "Because they invaded Georgia."
Nadler retorts: "So let 'em invade Georgia. It's right next to them. Would we tolerate a foreign--a Russian army in Mexico? Which is more important to us Georgia or Israel, frankly?"
Another voice in the crowd asks Nadler: "What is more important to us Czechoslovakia or Austria?"
"That's a completely separate kind of question," Nadler replies.
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Hopefully Obama can restore a little of a good 'American Brand' flavor, the part that goes like "all men are created equal" 'n 'at. But look at the interest in this election from BBC viewers...is it unprecedented? Is this the year that nationalism dies?
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Dolmance (16),
Or, as John Locke, from whom Jefferson got much of the content of the Declaration of Independence, put it...So, obviously, the only reason for government is to keep the wealthy wealthy.
Peace and Enough
ed
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90. eightypercent wrote:
"British
I hate Mondays was Geldoff and his Boomtown Rats.
Which brings me to U2 who are just about at the Springsteen level with the influence of their songs. Does that lead us on to the world-wide effect of Irish Imperialism."
Why not?
(I did know it was the Rats actually. . .That's the only song of theirs I know as well.)
Weren't New York and Chicago effectively Irish colonies at one time? And there's the beneficial effect of the well-known Irish coloniser Arthur Guinness to be considered.
And Jonathan Swift, and Samuel Beckett, and . . .
(I could quite get into this. I'm not very up on Irish rap artists though. I'll need help there.)
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#95 jcputn5349
If you were trying to tell me something, then it's completely lost on me. So what is it that you were wanting tosay?
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#95
jcp
Are you *ever* going to answer my questions? I keep trying to give my hard-earned cash to a cause you nominate, if only you'll back up your assertion that Obama's a Marxist.
I'm sure it's very tiresome for all the other blog users, but I'd like to clear up once and for all whether you have any basis for your comments or whether it's all just paranoid delusions.
I don't expect you to answer, but in return please don't expect to be taken seriously.
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Redagast wrote:
Almost like a cross between the Mafia and the Nazi's have been running (and ruining) America since 2000 and it has been an absolute disaster.
I actually like Vladimir Putin and Russia now because of the counter balance they offer against the blatantly criminal cabal that has been "protecting" in the last eight years.
The American brand is now rubbish. McCain and Palin will just continue the plight but at foot to the floor speed.
However, I see a glimmer of hope in Obama, albeit only a glimmer but I guess it is better than the alternative.
If McCain/Palin somehow win, that will be the sealer for me. It will confirm to me that America has gone nuts and I will pour scorn on them forever and a day.
...............................
Putin is a gangster, the 21st century equivalent of the "strong men" of 20th century Latin America. The US has lost its way but that does not mean we support anyone who opposes them simply because they oppose them, regardless of their actions.
Through all the hoopla of the election process and the dying gasps of far right republicanism one can sense a re-alignment of the American pysche. Americans want the world to like them again, they know that the bully approach has not worked. There are millions of Americans who share values of community and fairness with the rest of the world. I believe those Americans will elect Obama this week and consign the Palins, the Rush Limbaughs and the sheer evil of their warped values to the trashcan of history.
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Obama the Marxist is hilarious! At a push his policies are more Keynesian if anything. And Keynes certainly wasn't a Marxist.
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I always think that being Irish is rather like being gay or being in showbiz. Wherever you go in the world, there's going to be members of your own special club there, ready to welcome you.
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91. endorfin wrote:
He's not 'Lord' Geldof; though he's commonly referred to as "Sir" Bob, since he's an Irish citizen, not a British one, the knighthood is honorary, and he really should only be referred to as 'Bob Geldof KBE'.
(It's just that very few of us can tell one 'K' from another, so 'Sir' makes it simpler.)
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british-ish # 50
At times the venom expressed by MAII and DMT [ who I strongly believe are the same person] can be a bit off-putting.
Hate to admit to it, but in the distant past I had a middle of the road balanced blog exchange with him[ MAII] here. Perhaps it was one of those bad days for both of us.
Re David_C :- Although I had hoped he had drunk enough of the O. kool aid, [and like yourself, he too had been involved in various "discussions" with both of the above nom de plumes], I still worry about the Hillary Clinton button that peeps out now and again from under the lapel of his double-breasted three piece suit. He is another gentleman however, despite the fact that he wears two different socks.
wma
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1): paul939 wrote:
"95 jcputn5349 If you were trying to tell me something, then it's completely lost on me. So what is it that you were wanting to say?"
2): and endorfin: "jcp: Are you *ever* going to answer my questions?"
1) We don't really want to know, thanks.
2) Never does. Why bother?
I could mention, yet again, that Russia did not invade Georgia, and Georgia wreaked wholesale destruction on South Ossetia and its population first, but the putn (not Putin!) version seems now to have achieved the same sort of iconographic status as Saddaam Hussein's involvement in 9/11 and with Al-Qaeda so there's no point.
But if anyone wants to branda Democratic Congressman called Nadler for an ignorance of world affairs almost the equal of Palin's, I'll happily join in.
Now where were we before that irrelevant interruption?
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The only difference between Republicans and Democrats when it comes to foreign policy is in style. Even a casual review of American history would reveal that Democratic Presidents have been as forceful as their Republican counterparts in advancing and protecting the interests and security of the USA.
Regardless of how hard McCain tries to portray Obama as a softy, the fact is that he will be as determined to protect Israel and prevent Iran from becoming a nuclear power as McCain would; and there is a good chance he will be more aggressive in fighting Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and even in Pakistan. The difference is that Obama will do it with an amicable smile in his face...although I doubt he will be inclined to refer to our adversaries - real or perceived - as "my friends".
I think it is important to note that to most Americans foreign policy is currently very low in our list of priorities. The outcome of this election will be determined by pocketbook issues, and to a lesser extent by the willingness of people to either bring about change or preserve the status quo and the trend that can be discerned by looking at the pictures of our presidents from Washington to W.
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Paul Krugman in the NYT has an interesting article on the fate of the "Republican Rump" if polling forecasts are correct.
"This will pose a dilemma for moderate conservatives. Many of them spent the Bush years in denial, closing their eyes to the administration?s dishonesty and contempt for the rule of law. Some of them have tried to maintain that denial through this year?s election season, even as the McCain-Palin campaign?s tactics have grown ever uglier. But one of these days they?re going to have to realize that the G.O.P. has become the party of intolerance."
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Pro-American. Anti-American. Hate the Yanks. Love the Yanks. What I find most interesting about all of the opinions (and all of those in between) is that people HAVE the opinions to begin with.
Are you under the impression that Americans demand your attention and participation in OUR process? We really don't. And I'm speaking as an average American, no more and no less. I've been privileged to be able to travel the world over and I'm almost always struck by the fact that, no matter where I go, people have definite opinions about Americans. Not only do they have these opinions but they feel free to voice them with the absolute conviction that those opinions are right (usually they're anti-American) and we are, generally, scum.
And maybe that's what happens to the powerful (it happened to the Greeks, Romans, English, etc.) all the way thru history. It's our turn now and I understand that. I also understand that, eventually, the mighty fall and so will we. It's inevitable and I guess that's the way of the world, eh?
However, what I also know is this: whatever your feelings about this election or the US, make no mistake; this is a turning point in American history. Regardless of whether we're in the middle of our history or near the end of it, Nov. 4, 2008 will go down in the annals of our history as the day we turned a corner.
I, for one, am thrilled for us.
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Segoya (46),
Seconded!Well said.
Forkwitt (61),
Segoye (), The Walmart strategy on a global scale...
And, as to cultural imperialism, all you need to know is tha,t in Britain folk now "run" for office....
Peace and Zimmerman
ed
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Leaked memo explains it all.
Peace and loose talk
ed
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Republicans hide behind the military, to prop up thier faux patriotism, Mr. Webb, not to "fight the good fight." They are, and always have been, the party of Big Biz.
And, since when is returning to common sense, "seduction?" Maybe it's been so long since we actually heard anything with a whiff of common sense in the last 8 years, we've forgotten what it was/is.
Over-glorification of the military, as the Republicans are so fond of indulging in, can easily morph into fascism -- that's the REAL seduction here.
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#97:
"common-wealth" then meant "common well-being" or "public good".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth
Apparently, Locke was also using the term "property" in a rather different manner to the modern use.
"In the Second Treatise, Locke claims that civil society was created for the protection of property. In saying this, he relies on the etymological root of "property," Latin proprius, or that which is one's own, including oneself (cf. French propre). Thus, by "property" he means "life, liberty, and estate."" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Treatise_on_Civil_Government#Property
So he's hardly saying that the only purpose of government is to keep the rich rich, but rather to defend the puplic good from outside attack and protect individuals from those who try to harm them/ their independence, and what they have worked for.
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First 2 Caveats
1. Since there is a 90% chance Obama will win, I sincerly hope I am wrong about him.
2 Let Springsteen and other promote Obama but don't due it when the public is paying to hear you sing. i don't want a political lecture from a server at a resturant either.
Regarding the Brand question:
Culturally and scientifcly the U.S will remain one of the world's leaders.
In foriegn policy, Obama will recieve a warm reception.
However and this goes to the point, I think Biden was trying to make. When Obama has to make a hard foriegn policy decision , how will the world react? If he promotes America's interest, which is his job, over a EU or U.N perspective, will those elites turn on him.
Because for the last 40 years it has been easy for the world's despots to attack the U.S, U.K or Israel. TheEuropean elite in belgium or the hacks in the U.N suport this philosophy.
I don't think Obama will be given a pass by them.
After all look at what Mugabe and chavez have done in the last year.
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#104
I have to give up the tongue-in-cheek stuff, really I do......
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Just an example of hate on the left.
Death threats against Joe the Plumber.
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/kerry-picket/2008/11/02/lib-radio-host-karel-calls-joe-wurzelbachers-death-air-obscenity-laced
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Re: Hating Mondays. Not Springsteen, but the Bangels come to mind.
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Getting really bored of hearing these "If Obama gets elected then XYZ will happen" type of comments.
Are we supposed to believe that Americans have crystal balls?
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It's all clear now!
Peace and Longjohns
ed
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Which should be spelled 'Bangles'. Just further proof we should have given the whole day a miss.
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105. 2008, watermanaquarius wrote:
british-ish # 50
At times the venom expressed by MAII and DMT [ who I strongly believe are the same person] can be a bit off-putting.
I think the word is 'infuriating'. I reckoned he certainly wears three threadbare socks, and quite possibly four, but for the moment I've forgotten the third monica, I mean monicker.
It's the way you when you try to hit back at one of them it disappears and another pops up, have you noticed?
He's done it again, today. He's been trying to turn the emperor without clothes into something resembling sanity lately I've noticed, but it won't wash with me. Or anybody else who just clicks on the name to see where else he's been sounding off.
Oh, look: another one's just arrived!
I think the best way to treat them is to point out their fallacies to everyone else, but not to answer directly. (Not my idea originally, but I've forgotten whose. It's Monday, after all.)
Unless you can make a joke out of them that they can't get a handle on for another tirade. Have you noticed that usually drives them away?
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Music as the universal language to paraphrase whoever said it first. Hip-Hop is popular from China to Greenland and all points between even Iran). Who's Imperialism might this represent?
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For those supporting Obama an interesting editorial you may wish to read in the Economist
They endorse Obama but echo my fears that the U.S is taking a chance.
How many of you can acknowledge this?
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110.Ed Iglehart wrote:
"in Britain folk now 'run' for office...."
Well they have to, don't they?To dodge the eggs and the paint. We can't let it just be a walkover.
We can't do rotten fruit and veg so easily these days with all those rules about freshness and sell-by dates. They didn't have those to interfere with the political process in the glorious missile throwing days of the nineteenth century hustings.
(I wonder . . .what do the Canadians do with those dead baby seals . . .? I have the very target . . .)
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We invite them in and we will continue to invite them in.
That's very important, and thanks for saying it.
The same can also be said for John, Paul, George, Ringo, Bono, Eric Calpton, any number of British actors, et al. Soft imperialism is not uniquely American.
Of course, soft imperialism is just another label for the global market, global culture, globalization, whatever.
The village is the planet.
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Diplomacy explained
Peace and soft imperialism
ed
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111. Ed Iglehart wrote:
"Leaked memo explains it all."
"A mascot like a panda"? I knew it! Anybody so obviously anti-squirrel had to be in the Panda Party.
But why a panda as mascot? Why not a baby seal? (Oh, dam', done it again.)
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#120
One of Mr Nelson's very worst compositions, I have to say.
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116.
I think we should help MagicKirin; he appears to be confused again. The site he points to (and most of those to which it links) are right-wing " 'liberal' hating" sites.
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Justin, I think this election thing is now getting to you. Perhaps you're already celebrating and had a tipple too many?
Take a break! Luvya.
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Segoye@89 and elsewhere makes a lot of good points about US imperialism, which certainly did not begin with GWB, and will not end if Obama is elected. However, the Great Crash of 2008 (as I believe it will be known) is a turning point of enormous importance: while the USA has great assets in its natural resources and scientific and technological expertise and will remain a great power, it has passed its peak of relative power, and is likely to be in relative decline for some decades at least (further ahead than that, we're all stuffed if the environmental and resource crises are not dealt with). Moreover, the market-worship of the past few decades is now as obsolete as Leninism. The world was very fortunate in getting Gorbachev as manager of Soviet decline. I am optimistic that Obama will manage US decline as sanely - although he may well be a one-term POTUS for reasons beyond his control; I don't believe McCain has the intellectual flexibility to do so, and in the quite likely event of him failing to complete his term, President Palin (the very words cause a shudder) would make GWB look like a well-educated and sensible moderate.
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115. endorfin wrote:
"#104
I have to give up the tongue-in-cheek stuff, really I do......"
Well, it's Monday. (Defensively.) And Magick's about. One takes one's eye off the crystal bagels. Bangels. Round things. Whatever.
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Iapetus (father of Prometheus),
Au contraire, property is that which has been appropriated, (taken from the common wealth). Thus the expression "All property is theft."Property subsists in the taking and keeping of that which once was part of our common inheritance. "Possession is nine tenths of the law".Peace and derivatives
ed
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Greetings from Atlanta, Georgia. I agree about the presence of imperialism in any candidate who has a chance of winning under the current climate here in the U.S. However, I am stll voting for Obama. I suppose soft imperialism is better than the hard kind. But I am not sure exporting music always represents imperialism. Georgiia has exported Ray Charles, the Allman Brothers and Otis Redding to the rest of the country and the world and I dont think they represented hegemony - after all, they were oppressed in their own nation. Another reason I am voting Democrat this time is Palin. If you have read some of her interviews you will also see she is clueless. I just feel sorry for her - its obvious she is in way over her head. McCain I am angry with for potentially putting this person a heartbeat away from having her finger on The Button. If he has that much contempt for our country, why is he running for President?
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Hero,
Not much good against stainless steel...;-)Complain about this comment
There are different universes being talked of here.
Justin introduces a very important point. The cultural imperialism of American music.
Indeed THAT could do a lot for regime change in Iran!
And with it would come goodwill to receive the better aspects of advertised American ideology.
_________________
Ed mentions the Tao. Something completely subversive of the intolerant greed evidenced by those of great wealth, and fostered among the population by paid media and religious leaders.
___________________--
These are different universes and the conflict will be measured tomorrow.
That the vote is projected to be close is tragic in itself.
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127.
"Leaked memo explains it all."
I looked at that again. The handwriting's terrible. But doesn't it say 'bald panda'? Honestly the extent of the right's ignorance never ceases to amaze me.
That's eagles isn't it? And those horrible little hairless dogs? Who'd want something bald as a mascot?
(I have a faint nagging suspicion I may have said something a bit contentious there. I don't know why.)
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130. ctd
..... or drowning your sorrows, might I add.
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#123
Magic
You're probably right - a vote for Obama is a vote for what might be. Might be good, might be bad.
Then again, a vote for McCain is a vote for same-again.....and that's not been too good, has it?
If Obama's a poor president, well, he's not going to do any worse than Bush, who's been the most mediocre president since ....actually, that's a hard one. He's been worse than both Carter and Nixon, and you'd probably have to go back to the really inept ones (Buchanan - the chap who failed to stop the Civil War - is generally regarded as the worst).
But I agree with you, America's taking a chance. A risk, if you like. On the other hand, constantly doing what you always did leads to entropy, which is ultimately unsustainable for any society.
Change is not just desirable, it's necessary.
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Juston, haven't you noticed that for the first time in history the world is perceiving America's might and power in a negative light? Only neocons like you see the shoot-first-ask-questions-later approach as a plus. Obama doesn't mean a weak military. Maybe he'll be able to restore honor and integrity to America and leverage our power in a way that is justifiable beyond doubt or argument. Like we did after Sept 11 before Cheney and Bush marched us to the extreme right.
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Nice to see Justin and I ahve two things in common.
1) Bruce....mind you i much prefer his earlier stuff....after driving across the whole of the US after graduation, i understood the "samml town working class america" that Bruce sings about...wicked stuff!
2) Im off back to my ex-home...the Isle of Wight for a couple of weeks, which Justin recent had his vacation on.
Back on topic:
Born in the USA, The River, Thunder Road Johnny 99 etc etc...all say so much more about Brand America, the good the bad and the ugly. Far more than McC or Obama ever can.
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ref #139
Thank you for acknowledging the point.
I would disagree on two points.
I think McCain is an agent of change and has proven it.
Carter was a far worse President than Bush and Nixon was one of the great Presidents in the last 100 years.
Watergate does not change that
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#132
As it's a Monday, have a listen to FAC 73 (long-form 12" obviously). If that doesn't cheer you up, there's something wrong with you.
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Endorfin,
I think you might mean atrophy. Everything leads to entropy, and any link between entropy and sustainability must be a bit ironic...Peace and posterity
ed
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#109 Annie__62
"Are you under the impression that Americans demand your attention and participation in OUR process? We really don't"
Frankly, we'll say what we want on OUR blog (that we pay for).
If you don't like what's here, log off.
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126. Ed Iglehart:
Diplomacy explained
I like that. There was one where they were two British civil servants drawing lines on the map of the Middle East:
"Yes, that looks fine. What shall we call it?"
"Iraq?"
"What a good idea. After all it'll be a wreck by the time we've finished with it."
(Has to be spoken in that sort of 20's upper-crust Oxford accent -- 'a' and 'e' as 'aaay' -- to work though.)
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38. MarcusAureliusII. Majick, others
We have one day left to see the election through, and granted the prognosis is that Obamas got it. MA2, I like your anaology of the 6000 crew and the battleship, fitting for the ship of State.
Let us not lose the wonder for that which is the election, the democracy on tap as it were. I fear as ya'll do, that with the double digit win, Obama will win a mandate.
This is not neccarsarilly bad, but the 'new' friends of state surely will be an indication as to the direction the new President and congress will take us, as sure as his friends of old indicate the new presidents political leaning, wether he reclaims them after the election or not.
Will that put in peril the balance of power world wide,... already Chavez is requesting a meeting with Obama when he wins. Russia has Georgia nervous on the balance, Israel is plowing down houses on the west bank, Mexican police are being murdered, our borders are still unchecked,....
At this point I wonder, 'is the support for the "New President of the United States" unilateral amongst nations and governments of our alies, or is here a concern'? How about in our own internal security departments/agencies?
This is exciting, as come January 20th, we will be facing a brave new world, one of just more of the same, where behind closed doors destinies are decided, wealth is accummulated and power is divided,..
..or one where the very fabric of what is 'normal' is ripped, shorn into pieces that will confuse the very astute, confound the insider and without the guidance of a past,.. seek a new pinnacle of balance...
..or just Jimmy Carter all over again.
just words, just speeches
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ref #129
Birt I don't need your help , the Huffington Post who this hater works for is liberal.
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114 MagicKirin
I'm surprisingly impressed by your post, you make some relevant, pertinant points.
Of course Obama is untested, of course it is a difficult world out there, and he is going to face tests. He will probably get some of them wrong. That's not something to worry about, really, McCain is just as likely to get the answers wrong, just as Bush has repeatedly got the answers wrong. What Obama promises is a new approach.
Iraq is a quagmire threatening to become a new Vietnam. For Obama the important thing is getting out, not unequivocally winning. The US military could be chasing that jack'o'lantern for 100 years.
Equally Obama recognises that the real terror threat to the USA lies (and has always lain) on the Afghan-Pakistan border. He will redistribute resources from the misguided Iraq conflict to the vitally important Afghanistan arena far sooner than McCain will be able to do. And he has made it unequivocally clear that Pakistan must be either "with us or against us." Conservatives call that a dumb move, it might well be the smartest foreign policy intervention an American politician has made in a decade.
And Obama will be able to build bridges with the world far easier than McCain will. He's been out there, he's lived in it, he understands Muslim culture better, he will project a smart, calm, intelligent image of America that is capable of building alliances, rather than the belligerant war-like America of recent years, not just carrying a big stick, but repeatedly beating everyone with it.
I think there is more likely to be diplomatic progress with North Korea, Iran, Russia and Cuba under Obama than under McCain, the "preconditions" approach clearly hasn't worked for 60 years in some cases.
The rather weak argument that under Obama's foreign policy, America will be more vulnerable to terror attacks lacks evidence. Obama will give the world less reason to hate America, he will direct the military to where the real terrorists live, and he is committed to enhancing civilian defence, not just through the CIA and the FBI. The moment the last soldier leaves Iraq, the violence there will drop drastically and the world will have one less stick with which to beat America back.
Obama may be inexperienced but he has a coherent foreign policy that takes America in a different direction to the Bush Doctrine. You may not agree that all his ideas will work, but surely they are worth a try, rather than continuing the same failed policies.
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# 15 OldSouth wrote:
[To J Webb]
"Good post. Don't let people beat you up about it."
I find myself agreeing with OldSouth.
I find this deeply worrying.
[Probably for both of us.]
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# 142 Magic
Sorry mate, Watergate changed everything. It showed him up for exactly what he was.
Your post at 142 again tells us all much more about you than about anything else.
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THE CAMPAIGN IS TIGHTENING
AND McCain is WINNING:
IT'S NOT "MORE OF THE SAME",
BUT McCain's BRAND OF CHANGE.
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Another endorsement
Speak of the Devil...Peace and Burke (and Paine's response)
ed
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cont'd from previous post...
At the beginning of the video, Geller mentions that the BBC reported there were phone banks in Gaza for Obama. Nadler replies: "Oh that's nonsense. ... You can invent facts, or read some stupid blog that invents a fact. ... I have never heard until this moment the allegation that someone's got phone banks in Gaza. If that were the case there would have been headlines all over the place. ... It would have been all over Fox News, and then everybody would have been answering it. ... It would have been a major campaign issue." -- Weekly Standard
Thanks to BBC for reporting the story of the Gaza phone banks that the American MSM ignores and a US Congress member does not know or care about. There's a u-tube video showing the interviews at one operation.
American MSM missed something else--on purpose. The Times Online Uk investigated Obama's background that includes family relations. The Times tell the story of Obama's aunt living in government housing in Boston. She is an illegal immigrant ordered to leave the US four years ago, yet she stays (because living in "imperial, racist America" ain't bad after all.) O now says he barely knew her, yet he used her as an example of his strong sense of family ties in one of two autobiographies, Dreams of My Fathers, and he accepted $250 from her for the campaign. It is against the law for non-citizens to contribute to campaigns. (She is one of many who have donated illegally.) Axelrod demands an investigation into the "leak" that exposes her location and proves O's failure to live up to his own plastic rhetoric of "compassion." Apparently, genuine journalism is a "leak," a criminal act in the O'World, and will be soon in our world if O is selected king.
This should tell Justin Webb to stop relying on American anti-journalism for his op-ed or else do his own investigations on the streets outside of Washington. You can count on one hand the national journalists in the US who did not sell out, but overall the vast majority of MSM members--registered Democrats, supporters of the elite class, and anti-Jefferson--sought to influence the outcome of the election with bias and suppressed information. They have been the propaganda arm of the Obama campaign. Those who did not sell out (some of them Dems, Independents, and Liberals) are paying a temporary and painful price for integrity. They will win in the end for holding to principles of their profession. The "bad" journalists have lost our respect and sullied the profession to the point that journalists are as distrusted as the politicians in Washington are. When famous MSM journalists appear in public, they are "boooooed." They will surely go down if O wins the election even with his blatant favoritism for them. They will have a chance with the American people for redemption if Mc wins because the damage O will do will not be laid at their feet. Already, honest college professors (liberal ones, even) use them as examples of bias in journalism and warn students to search for news beyond the big American media. Good news for the BBC, Times UK, and small town journalists in the USA.
I have a strong suspicion that only McCain can save the Democratic Party from itself. All the suppressed info? It will come crashing down on the Dems. Their only hope of surviving as a legitimate party will be if they return to their roots in Jefferson, which means they will need to embrace meritology and let go of Marx.
Let Americans have a real-life experience of Marxism with their jobs, paychecks, and small businesses. Republican ranks will swell when a-political Americans suddenly realize what "spread the wealth" means; a good portion do not understand failed Marxist theory and must need a real-life primer. Interestingly, legal immigrants from socialist homelands are the most anti-Obama in our land.
The 2001 Obama radio interview will haunt the Dem Party until they, like so many of their wise fellow Americans, run away from spooky sounding Marxist politicians: "But, the Supreme Court never ventured into the issues of redistribution of wealth, and of more basic issues such as political and economic justice in society. To that extent, as radical as I think people try to characterize the Warren Court, it wasn't that radical. It didn't break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the founding fathers in the Constitution, at least as its been interpreted, and the Warren Court interpreted it in the same way that generally the Constitution is a charter of negative liberties says what the states can't do to you, says what the federal government can't do to you, but it doesn't say what the federal government or the state government must do on your behalf and that hasn't shifted." Obama 2001
Oh, Please US Federal Government, don't do anything more to "help us!" Anybody remember Ronald Reagan? He said, "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help."
How about government get out of our way so we can solve our own problems? We don't need government to direct our actions, and we don't need permission from government to act in our own self-interest. In fact, the only way to solve the problems, that government created for us with interference, is if government removes itself from the field. Sounds like a "game changer" to me.
One other person's response at M. Drudge: "I find it interesting that Obama doesn't seem to recognize the limits on Congress that are expressed in Article I Section VIII of the Constitution. Obama also seems to believe that the only things that the government CAN'T do is what is in the Bill of Rights. This is completely against what the Founders believed in. In fact many people who opposed the Constitution such as the great Patrick Henry believed that others would come who would interpret the Constitution to mean that the rights penned are the only ones you have and can be repealed by government... just like Obama indicates in this interview."
Another Ronald Reagan quote: "How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin."
A lot of us understand, and many more will learn if O wins the election.
USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA!
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136. Xie_Ming wrote:
"There are different universes being talked of here.
Justin introduces a very important point. The cultural imperialism of American music.
Indeed THAT could do a lot for regime change in Iran!
And with it would come goodwill to receive the better aspects of advertised American ideology."
You don't think Iranian kids listen to it? Even make their own raps?
You see, this is what happens when you get one country demonising another. It gets far, far, too simplistic.
Which country in the Middle East would you go to for expert plastic surgery, for example? Or even a sex-change operation?
I think the answer might surprise some people.
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#144
Well, my understanding of entropy (used in the context of political philosophy rather than physics) was that without the addition of external energy (in this context, continual societal change) so a society will tend to disorder. Only by constant reinvention will a society survive; failure to do this will lead to decline.
Mind you, it's a good few years since I studied this, so I'm prepared to admit that I could have mis-remembered (my favourite Hillary comment).
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"142. At 1:56pm on 03 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #139
Thank you for acknowledging the point.
I would disagree on two points.
I think McCain is an agent of change and has proven it.
Carter was a far worse President than Bush and Nixon was one of the great Presidents in the last 100 years.
Watergate does not change that"
You approve of lying in office and trying to subvert democractic elections?
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and George Parr is the Master of the Universe.
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When we talk about imperialism, this is an example of imperialism of the worst kind.
Magic please take note, pretend that you are objective!
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#38
Marcus,
The great thing about being a leader is that you recognize your own weaknesses.
The challenge over the past few years, indeed for a long time with the Republican party, is folks who think a title bestows wisdom. Then they make bad calls based on their limited capabilities.
It doesn't, it bestows responsibility. Obama seems to be smart enough to know how dumb he is and surround himself with good counsel. Then take it.
The net result may not be a 'decider in chief' 30 second turn around call, but it is more likely to be a reasoned one.
We'll be fine.
Sleep well,
Optimist Sam
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" If Obama becomes President.......what will we do?"
In Obama's words.....we will learn to sing "I will teach the wold to sing ," and hold hands and see the wold in a loving fashion.
That didn't work in the 60's, and those of us that have some memory of then, found out that the real world will thrust you into a situation you really don't want to be in but you have to fight your way out of it.
I pray it won't take him too long to wake up !
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The missing link
HERE
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#123
Magic,
They also say McCain the only reason to vote McCain is if you assume he is completely misrepresenting himself on the trail and will go back to being the old McCain. Because everything he has done on the campaign has been awful.
Just for completeness,
Sam
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Hey Justin, whens the last time a Springsteen song kept Soviets off your doorstep?
Tell it to the Georgians.
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Justin,
I continue to be exasperated by comments like yours. The election of either Obama or McCain is unlikely to be a defining moment in US history or to 'change the US brand'. Here's why:
(i) Unless either wins by a massive landslide, which polls suggest is unlikely, the winner will have to accommodate much opinion that is unpaletable.
(ii) Obama's liberalism is considerably overplayed on the left: he is a protectionist by instinct, and far from being the 'tax and spend' character his enemies present, just as McCain as 'Bush Mark II' is unlikely - he is certainly less dogmatic in his anti-invention stance that he is painted. These guys will not create an ideological departure from the past. 'Change' will be limited and cautious, and no boats will be rocked.
(iii) In a recession, with high spending and high deficits with re-capitalisation costs just beginning to hit home, neither man would - in the event of winning the election - face the opportunity to throw money at change. With every day that passes the cost of a maverick programme or a radical liberal one looks just too high.
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ref #162
Could you provide a shorter video or transcript.
Or did you really want me to spend 52 minutes on your source?
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# 109 Annie__62 wrote:
"Are you under the impression that Americans demand your attention and participation in OUR process? We really don't. And I'm speaking as an average American, no more and no less. I've been privileged to be able to travel the world over and I'm almost always struck by the fact that, no matter where I go, people have definite opinions about Americans. Not only do they have these opinions but they feel free to voice them with the absolute conviction that those opinions are right (usually they're anti-American) and we are, generally, scum."
An interesting and thoughtful post, I thought.
To answer your first question - no. This is a BBC site for people to discuss America. We non-Americans obviously have our strong opinions on the US, and on who we want to win the election.
I think we are fully entitled to this. There was an interesting opinion piece in The Guardian recently making the same point - if I had time I'd try and find the link. Among the points made was the fact that US elections particularl affect the UK - eg the results of the last 2 had a significant effect on the UK now being at war.
To be honest, part of the interest is just the excitement of the whole thing. [I think the US system is almost uniquely exciting. For example, a year ago or less no one knew who would actually be the candidates - I think the bookies would have said Clinton v Giuliani. So even before the actual election you have the 'fun' of the Primaries. Parliamentary systems tend to be rather less volatile.]
I don't think most people here think American citizens are hanging on our every word before deciding how to vote. [Though I couldn't help noticing that [a] Obama's rise in the polls seemed to coincide with [b] a fellow called JohnAAA stopping submitting anti-Obama posts here approximately every 5 minutes. I assumed [a] caused [b], but who knows - maybe it was the other way around (g)]
Part of our interest is also identification with the USA. We watch US films and TV [the best of the latter in particular is really excellent], we listen to US music. Few people [especially in somewhere like Ireland] wouldn't have visited the US or lived or worked there or had a friend or relative who did.
I'm sorry if you found such anti-Americanism. I don't deny there is a fair bit of uninformed prejudice. Then again I think many people would say that they don't like the US GOVERNMENT - that's a different thing from not liking the people. Let's face it, most of us don't think v much of our own governments.
As for the question of how we foreigners will regard Obama - if he is elected, I'm sure he'll put US interests first. That's his job, and the job of any politician. Foreigners cannot vote for you. I think many of us hope that his difference with the current regime is that he'll realise that the US is not all-powerful, and that it needs allies and 'soft power'.
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ref #157
In answer to your question, Nixon would have won easily without Watergate.
And Nixon's many accomplishments out weigh this minor thing.
The worst result of Nixon resigning it gave us Jimmy Carter whose disastorous tenure still affects the world today.
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#154
jcp
"a good portion do not understand failed Marxist theory".
That'll be you, for a starter.
Look, I understand that you're clearly beyond help, but for the love of all things holy can you please get your political references correct? After that you can go for therapy.
It's OK to say that you don't like Obama. For you to state that you don't like any thought of redistribution (they'll have to prise the money out of your cold, dead hand etc etc - apologies to Mr Heston).
But you really need to work out that calling Obama a Marxist hinders rather than helps your own cause. Anyone who knows what Marxism is would simply laugh at you and refuse to entertain your wild theorising any further. Or do you just enjoy being thought of as stupid?
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Jackturk (162),
Thanks for that. Here's another take and the Dutch source
Peace and food for thought
ed
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#168
I don't disagree that Nixon achieved some significant things - schools integration and China being just two of the high points - but his tainting of the presidency will always hang over his memory.
Brilliant, but morally bankrupt.
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Endorfin (156),
I hadn't thought of entropy as a political property. Your point may be, as Ed Abbey put it, "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top."
Peace and circulation
ed
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# 168
Magic, Magic, I despair of you.
Of course Nixon should never have allowed his goons to break into Watergate. He had the election won anyway.
The fact that he did exposed :
(a) his paranoia
(b) his disdain for the rule of law
(c) his disdain for the democratic process
Today is not a good day to extoll his virtues - not to the crowd who read this blog anyway.
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People throw around words like imperialism and fascism without even knowing what they mean. This is especially distressing when it comes from someone who proports to be a journalist. The United States is not and never was an imperial power. It has no colonies it rules with an iron fist the way real imperial powers did. Certainly it is not an empire in the sense of imperial powers which they ruled over mercilessly for centuries. These included Britain, France, Holland, Spain, Portugal, Russia, Italy, Germany, Japan and in ancient times, Greece, Rome, and many others. The US occupies a handful of small islands of land around the world from which it projects military power. In aggregate, they amount to very little land and very few native peoples. The US occupied some nations for a short time measured in a few decades, Cuba, the Phillipines, Germany, Japan, among others. This was to restore order after a war. It will exit Iraq and hopefully someday Kosovo, Iraq, and Afghanistan when the conditions are stable there. The Panama Canal Zone was abandoned before its lease expired, Guantanomo will eventually be returned to Cuba when that lease expires.
The voluntary embrace of American culture including pop culture by people around the world is not an imperial act of America anymore than eating pizza is an imperial act of Italy. Nor is American investment. This is especially apparent now that most nations recognize the benefits of foreign investment in their local ecnonomies.
America's closest thing to an imperial act was the policy of Manifest Destiny in the 19th century. This was the conquest of a continent which was in truth largely unpopulated. If you fly over it on a clear day even today, if you look out the window at the ground, once you get west of the Mississippi or even before, you find it is still largely empty until you get near the coast of California. The hunter gatherer tribes which sparsely populated the land claimed vast tracts of it as their own. This was often taken from them forcibly. Today they live on island nations which are independent countries having treaties with the United States. We call them Reservations. If this hadn't happened, America could not have become the nation it is today. The handful of Spanish missionaries captured in the War for Texas and the Mexican American war hardly count. Those vast tracts of land were also very sparsely populated. BBC's assertion that the US is an imperial power as expressed in their absurd series "America Age of Empire" is an affront to the truth. Therefore nothing BBC does or says is surprising anymore.
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#154
At last!
jcputn5439 - I take it from you Reagan quote that you have indeed read Marx and Lenin and understood them well enough (careful now - they do use some difficult words!) to be so positive in their detrimental impact on the States and the fact that everyone in the Democratic party seems to be one.
er....UK UK UK UK UK UK UK... embarrassed cough....doesn't seem to have the same umph really does it?
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165. Woundedpride wrote:
"Justin,
I continue to be exasperated by comments like yours. The election of either Obama or McCain is unlikely to be a defining moment in US history or to 'change the US brand'."
If someone cannot see that the election of a black president for the first time ever will make a difference not only to the way the USA is perceived, but also to the way a large proportion of the population of the US itself perceives it, or will not in itself be a 'defining moment' I really do despair.
Why bother with an election then?
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Majik,
No time to learn, eh? You've obviously got little better to do. And plenty of scope for learning, so why not give it a try, for oncePeace and learning
ed
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance
Confucius
Ignorance is a voluntary misfortune
Nicholas Ling
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Much has been made of late about the damage to the BBC reputation of the antics of the two cringing mediocrities that are Brand and Ross.
To my mind, any such damage pales into insignificance beside that wrought to the organisation's independence and integrity by the baleful partiality of JW's posts.
In future, can anyone trust his reportage as being objective, balanced and accurate? Methinks not. If you want to evangelise, go join an evangelical mission like the Daily Mail, but keep off the BBC, who really should know better.
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If Obama becomes president, the American Brand goes from Marmite to Mallomars.
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164. sensibleBiologist wrote:
"Hey Justin, whens the last time a Springsteen song kept Soviets off your doorstep?"
That, of course, is a 'when did you last beat your wife question' which I would not expect from anyone sensible, biologist or not.
It's the worn out old fallacious argument: the possession of nuclear weapons prevented a nuclear war. Not having nuclear weapons at all would also prevent a nuclear war, would it not?
But try this one: When was the last time a lot of songs (and a lot of demonstrations and a lot of deaths, of course) resulted in the US withdrawing from a war?
I see the general quality of discussion is deteriorating even faster than usual.
Hibernation time again.
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The brand ? lets not confuse the culture with the
unique form of American Business . Springsteen's songs in a few years will be used as background for commercials advertising cars, ED drugs and laundry detergent.
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Not everyone agrees with Justin Webb on what is worthy of commentary in this election:
Barack Obama victory will hurt US firms -- and world economy
By Janet Daley
[...] it is tax policy that is Obama's most dangerous ground. It must be surprising to British observers that his proposal to cut taxes for the 95 per cent of people who earn less than $200,000 a year (down, incidentally, from his initial figure of $250,000)* has not straightforwardly won the day in the American national debate.
* [actually it was $300 k to 250 k to 200 k, now rests at $120 k]
In Britain, such a promise (if believed) would be an electoral free pass to Downing Street. But in the US, voters are aware that the largest category of people who would be hit by Obama's higher tax would be those who own small businesses, as Joe the Plumber famously aspired to do and as many, many of his countrymen already do [US figure: 97% of businesses are "small" in the USA and provide 45% of US jobs.] Ordinary working-class people in America do not automatically expect to be low earners, or even employees, all of their lives: they believe that through hard work and resourcefulness, they are as likely as anyone to rise in the world. [That's right.] And so they do not necessarily take kindly to someone who wants to penalise them as soon as they break through an income ceiling in order, as Obama fatally put it, to "spread the wealth around". [This lady gets it; if O wins there go my dreams; I'll have to buy gold and stuff my mattress with cash.]
But there is another facet of Obama taxation with even more serious consequences for the US. In order to pay for his tax cut for 95 per cent of the population (half of whom do not pay income tax and whose "cut" would be in the form of a cash rebate), President Obama and his Democratic Congress would raise the US rate of corporation tax -- already the second highest in the world -- from 15 to 20 per cent. They also plan to punish through taxation companies that employ people overseas rather than "creating American jobs". These measures would have the almost immediate effect of driving companies and capital out of the US.
In the same "help the little guy" spirit, Obama proposes to raise capital gains tax, thus penalising those whose investment is desperately needed for market recovery. As my economist friends always tell me when I advocate tax cuts for the low-paid: it may seem a morally and politically attractive policy but it doesn't do a damn thing for economic growth. The tiny amounts that the lower-paid receive in such wide-ranging cuts make little difference as a stimulus and if they are balanced by penalties on business and on the investing classes, they are worse than useless.
So what will happen? For what it is worth, I think it ...Whoever gets the White House, America will eventually return to being what it must be: the economic engine of the world and the greatest testimony to the power of human initiative in history. On both of those counts, it will once again be resented. But it will take a while longer to reach that point under Barack Obama.
-----------------------------------
She has hope that socialism will die in the USA.
I haven't seen a single opinion piece at Justin's blog on the detrimental effects of Obama's tax plan on small business so far or the unemployment that is coming, and we already see manifesting because of the O campaigns anti-business threats. If he did, I missed it.
Small business is preparing to lay people off and has already started to cut down their size. "Unfavored" industries are not safe either. The coal industry will enjoy 100% unemployment after Obama bankrupts them, as he promised in another interview where he accidentally let the truth slip.
The Munchkins of small business won't come out of hiding until they know socialism is dead. Everyone will simply stop producing and creating new wealth from which the government sucks.
If any of you are under-30 years old O-voters, that means you'll have to pay for your own car insurance next month, and when your parents are older, they will move in with you.
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If only Nixon had been a bit more like Carter, and Carter had been a bit more like Nixon... the 70's would have been a whole lot better!
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#146
British/Ed
The George Parr interviews continued to a time when they were agreeing that the Americans had made a complete bags out of Iraq.
Interviewer : Well, what do you think we should do now ?
George Parr : What we need is a really tough dictator to control the country
Interviewer : Really ? Who do you have in mind
GP : Let me see - there used to be a fellow who fitted the bill. What was his name ? Something beginning with Sadaam .............
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There is the McCain approach - fight the good fight. And there is the approach of the American left - seduction, for want of a better word. Springsteen is a lefty but he is also an agent of American dominance
When did he start fighting a good fight?
Retire you simp
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I don't care if people laugh at me. I'm used to it because I'm a Christian, the only group that it is politically ok to discriminate against. I have nothing to lose.
As for calling "redistribution of wealth" Marxism and those who promote "redistribution of wealth" Marxists, it is and they are. I didn't make it so. There is a huge difference between supporting social programs and turning the IRS into distribution center from where we receive our living. The first one is simply a "well-meaning liberal" and the second intends for "redistributive change," Obama's phrase. "Redistribution of wealth" is radical and the polar opposite the Revolutionary War, Jefferson, Lincoln, Kennedy....Obama is a disaster because Marxism is a disaster. I would rather not have to tell you later "I told you so," but I already know that if O wins and you voted for him, that is exactly what you will hear and will be accountable for.
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jcputn5349's post at 154 is rather misled I think.
You speak about failed Marxist theory as though you understand it. But you cant possibly if you think Obama is wanting to implement Marxist economics.
Redistribution of wealth is not purely the domain of Marxist economics. Progressive forms of capitalism use similar ideas - and Obama's economic plan falls into this category.
The advocates of redistribution - both Marxists and progressive capitalists - share a common criticism of conservative capitalism. They criticize the claim that there is a naturally occurring mechanism of redistribution that automatically works in the free market - 'the invisible hand'.
There is ample evidence to show that people prefer to rig the market in their favor so as to extract maximum benefit [think economic scandal after economic scandal]. And there is plenty of evidence to show that the invisible hand is an imperfect tool to uplift people from conditions of material poverty [well... it hasn't happened yet!].
The great capitalist economist John Maynard Keynes - whose economic theories pulled the US out of the Great Depression - put it well: 'Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men can do the most wickedest of deeds for the greatest good of everyone". [He said that because the cultural logic of capitalism is that of 'the selfish individual']
The Republican's neo-liberal leaning, conservative economics did not manage to free the US from unemployment, underemployment and vast inequalities of wealth. Quite the opposite. Obama is now maybe going to try something different. Will it work? I'm not sure, but mindlessly bashing redistribution because you belligerently favor the system of the past is fairly unintelligent.
Besides, the dislike of tax is funny thing. On one hand it seems obvious; It is 'my money and I worked hard for it. Why should I give it way?'. But the dislike of tax is also a cultural thing. It has to do with our cultural understanding of what makes up an individual. Are we individuals with no responsibility to others in our society - with no obligation rather than to follow our own selfish desire? Or are we people with some kind of responsibility to others?
I have spoken to a number of young Scandinavians who tell me how proud they felt the first time they paid tax! The have told me how they looked at the streets, schools and people around them and felt proud to be helping make their society. And as we all know, Scandinavians by and large pay very high taxes and have very low levels of poverty etc.
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11. At 04:18am on 03 Nov 2008, allmymarbles wrote:
Justin, I think you are losing it.
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12. At 04:18am on 03 Nov 2008, allmymarbles wrote:
Justin, To put it another way, you risk becoming inconsequential.
----------------------------------
Marbles he has been for quite a while.
I call him all sorts of names.
But skilled insightful journalist never.
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When Obama becomes President, the world's faith in America will be restored at the click of a finger. All the disastrous policies of the Bush Administration will be considered the faults of a different America - an America which for eight gruelling long years unsucessfully experimented with the idea of self-isolationism. This arrogant, aggressive America is soon to be consigned to history. The radical shift to a newer, younger, fresher, more optimistic and articulate President is a welcome change and one which the rest of the world will surely embrace. International polls show that the rest of the world view Senator Obama in a very favourable light.
After wrecking carnage around the world, the Republicans will only have themselves to blame for losing this election. Like the Tories in the aftermarth of Blair's landslide in 1997, the Republican Party will need to regroup and consider how to change itself to appeal to the American voter. I fully expect change in the Republican leadership in both the House and Senate and I also expect the jockying for position of the various groups that make up the Republican Party - namely the social conservatives, Christian Conservatives and the centre-right. One thing we won't see, however, is any more of the vicious doctrine known as neo-conservatism. Once the incumbent President's time is up, so his philosophy will be too.
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Justin what is to say you have not been seduced by the right.
Apart from me many are seeing your nias.
to the right
the only ones that defend you are generally suck ups who like to say you're even handed or trying (including me on a polite day).
Or rabid gherkins and the john.
Even sensible people writing in see that you have a bias and mention it.
my american Girl friend thinks your a pathetic drip with no "testicular fortitude".
Brain washed by a laundry room and a walk in closet.
Leave simpleton
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nias Bias
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old southern still fighting "the WAR'
. I worked overseas during the Carter administration. It was no fun trying to explain him to my colleagues, all of whom admired America, and were perplexed by his behaviour.
----------------
Hate to tell you the explanations got harder under Bush and are sure to get even harder if the justin's choice gets in.
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Ref 154
"Republican ranks will swell when a-political Americans suddenly realize what "spread the wealth" means; a good portion do not understand failed Marxist theory and must need a real-life primer."
Do yourself a favor and go to the Obama website, review his fiscal and economic proposals, and them come back and enlighten us with your erudite opinion regarding the parallels between his proposals and Marxism.
After you do that, take a look at McCain's website and his proposals and tell us the difference between what he proposes to do and what the Bush Administration has been doing the past 8 years.
How do you justify the de facto nationalization of financial institutions proposed and implemented by the Bush Administraton, and John McCain's $300B real estate appropriation, while accusing Obama of being a Marxist?
You may want to familiarize yourself with the definitions of Socialism and Marxism before you reveal your supine ignorance to everyone. It is risky to voice opinions based on political soundbites intended to demonize an opponent when a candidate has nothing to offer.
As for the GOP ranks swelling, you need a reality check. More and more Republicans are registering themselves as Independents as a result of the irresponsible domestic policies of the Bush Administration.
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I see that Marcus has been busy again on the other BBC blogs. This gem, from one of them (today), is worth repeating :
"When life hands you a lemon, make lemonade"
Life according to Marcus : if only George Parr had the same insight.
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LawChicago,
e.g. "The Rising"?Peace and tumescence
ed
BTW Brit, Scuridae do not hibernate, at least the red yins don't.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
174 (MarcusAureliusII)
"People throw around words like imperialism and fascism without even knowing what they mean... The United States is not and never was an imperial power"
You're not being serious, are you? There are plenty of definitions of imperialism that allow for the US to labeled imperialist. And an empire. Though you may not like it, some of these definitions come from Lenin - but Lenin was one of the foundational theorists of Imperialism. You would know that if you knew about imperialism.
It is also possible to define the US as imperialist using non-Leninst theorists, such as Hobson. If YOU knew your stuff, you would know the US can be considered an imperialist state.
You do not need to physically control a country as a colony to exercise imperial power. Imperialism is a relationship of economic dominance; it is not necessarily political and territorial control. The latter is colonialism.
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I'm just taking the ones that catch my eye: MAII this time:
"The US occupied some nations for a short time measured in a few decades, Cuba, the Phillipines, Germany, Japan, among others. This was to restore order after a war.'
Ah yes.
Now which country went to war to 'liberate' which of those countries and then fought a popular armed insurrection against it for five years? And then stayed 'to restore order after a war' that it began?
And how do you really define say, the American Virgin Islands, or Saipan?
Oh, by the way, Simon Schama is an American isn't he?
I'm so bored with this 'four legs good, two legs bad . . .two legs good four legs bad' stuff from some people that's simply historically inaccurate, even fanciful.
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I don't care if people laugh at me. I'm used to it because I'm a Christian, the only group that it is politically ok to discriminate against. - jcputn5349
Can self-deception and self-pity go further than this? I guess the discrimination against Christians is why lies are spread about Obama being a Muslim, and Kay Hagan is threatening to sue Liddy Dole for suggesting she's insufficiently anti-atheist?
You're a treasure, jc, a wonderful source of unintentional hilarity. At least, I assume it's unintentional - if you're putting on an act, I have to say it's brilliant!
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193 dominick.
the arguement should be easier than that.
Palin
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQhPIBuI2ag
spreading the wealth
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195. Iglehart wrote:
"BTW Brit, Scuridae do not hibernate, at least the red yins don't."
This one's adopting the practice just for the duration. Or maybe it's just that jcp and MAII send me to sleep?
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186. At 3:38pm on 03 Nov 2008, jcputn5349 wrote:
"I don't care if people laugh at me. I'm used to it because I'm a Christian, the only group that it is politically ok to discriminate against. I have nothing to lose."
Isn't that fair? For the last how-many-centuries it's been correct for Christians to sneer at (and persecute) non-Christians. Now you know what it feels like.
" I would rather not have to tell you later "I told you so," but I already know that if O wins and you voted for him, that is exactly what you will hear and will be accountable for."
You are going to feel silly when Obama wins and disaster does not strike. Well, no you won't, because like all really religious folk you have a mind which is a closed, self sustaining system. You'll work out some tortuous argument proving that you were right all along. Have a nice Wednesday!
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Justin - I have no strong opinions on The Boss. But I wonder if you'd address this issue of taxation.
I'm a bit bemused by McCain and Palin's scare story that Obama will raise taxes. Principally because Obama has been saying for months that he will cut taxes for the overwhelming majority of Americans.
There's a clear dichotomy - both sides making diametrically opposing claims. One of them has to be lying.
The only explanation I can fathom is that, in the eyes of conservative leaning voters (which McCain is now desperately trying to hold onto in traditionally Republican states) insisting that Obama will 'raise taxes' despite what Obama has actually pledged to do is cashing in on the idea of him being a "liberal".
It dosn't matter that McCain/Palin's claims are false, because most people reckon Obama is a "liberal" anyway (I guess Black politicians are naturally "liberal", no doubt part of their calculation.)
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I realized jcputn5349 might still be confused.
The point is that even your beloved McCain believes in 'redistribution of wealth'. His is simply by another means - a failed means.
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# 174
Three USA leaders: Henry Cabot Lodge (Senator); William Randolf Hearst (media magnate); William Thayer Mahan (Washington Naval Staff) planned a war of aggression to seize coaling stations for a projected commercial domination of China.
Puerto Rico was permanently annexed.
The Phillipines resisted the American invasion and was occupied for fifty years.
Consider also Guam, Midway and Hawaii etc.
The pretexts included the false and imaginary claim that the Spanish government was "abusing" the residents of Cuba, etc.
__________________________
Recently, the US invaded and occupied Iran and made efforts to attack Syria and Iran. The objectives: advanced bases in the Middle East and West Asia; control of oil; and assistance to Israel.
__________________
To find out more concerning the USA in Latin America, Google "Smedley Butler" former Commandant of the US Marine Corps.
____________________
This is the recent record of an aggressive, imperialist power using military conquest for commercial advantage.
Further back, one can consider the Mexican War.
The history differs from the mythology.
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"the great Patrick Henry" - jcputn5349
Oh, you mean the loathsome hypocrite who said, in effect:
"Give me liberty or give me death, but I'm keepin' my slaves!"
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http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MnJiHu7h-C8&feature=related
Joe the Gherkin
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189. TheHandOfHistory wrote:
"When Obama becomes President, the world's faith in America will be restored at the click of a finger."
I wouldn't bank on it. There will be a huge sigh of relief, probably. But I think that's all you can expect.
He might only be president for four years, the first two he'll have to concentrate on the economic crisis (which the American electorate seems to have completely forgotten about) and the second two of them might well be spent with him being distracted by the next election.
It'll take more than two years, more than four, even. Possibly more than eight.
There are also enough similarities in some of Obama's foreign policies, as stated, to the preceding ones to have most of the world suspending judgement for some time.
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Make sure you double-check!
Peace and verification
ed
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Hi Justin. Thanks to BBC News I now know who
Bruce Springsteen is. They played a clip of him at a Dem rally. I see what you mean. He's
gorgeous. Have a nice evening.
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"One of the main causes of imperialism is the need to gain new markets in order to prevent the stagnation of profit. "
I think the psychological root cause of imperialism goes much deeper than that. I don't believe the stagnation of profit played a large part in the imperialst ambitions of the Assyrians, who were the first imperialists, I believe. Yours is a typically 20th century socio-economic interpretation of history that is as onesided as any other interpretation of historic events. Preventing the stagnation of profit also doesn´t tend to be the argument with which imperialist leaders try to convince the masses.
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American 'soft imperialism' will, I think, be the overarching theme of an Obama Presidency.
As usual in the USA, the 'hype' has been overwhelming and you are left wondering just what can this single individual do in the next four years.
Hopefully, the wave of positive sentiment will endure long enough to reboot the world in a better direction.
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193. DominickVila
It's no use bothering about definitions (dictionary, philosophical or scientific).
As someone pointed out the other day, these people work on the Humpty Dumpty principle: "A word means what I say it means."
And since that can change from one post to the next, arguing with them is simply pointless.
One can only point out the more egregious errors of fact, omission and distortion so the brown stuff doesn't spread too far.
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"The United States is not and never was an imperial power." - MAII
Now that is really funny! The USA was built by stealing most of its land from its previous inhabitants (you know, Native Americans?), and a war against Mexico which was one of the most nakedly aggressive in modern history.
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Obama, The 0usical!
Peace and musiced
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"As for calling "redistribution of wealth" Marxism and those who promote "redistribution of wealth" Marxists, it is and they are." - jcputn5349
No, the two are not the same, no matter how many times you tell this lie.
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Ahhhh, well here we go, I will make another post on this site. What can I say, I am a 61 yesr old white independent voter, leaning slightly to the left. I have never known a year in my life with out some sort of WAR, cold war, hot war, undeclared war, Korea, Viet Nam, The gulf, Afghanistan, Iraq, and who the hell knows about all of the small interferences we stay involved in. I am sick of WAR, I lost a Brother at Normandy, before I was even born, what the hell were we doing there to begin with. I, along with many of my friends would love to see us just stay at home, defend our own borders and shores when needed, and let the rest of the world decide their own fates. As for the importance of this election, remember that the first sixteen Presidents could have owned Obama, for a small amount of change, that is what makes it so damn important to me. I am sick of hearing about Joe the Plumber, a complete idiot, another fne selection by the McCain campaign to be a spokesman for their out of date politics. I am embarrassed by the fact that we have had a "C" average student as President of the Nation for the last eight years, and I certainly do not want four more years of the same, McCain, sixth from the bottom of his class, Palin, six community colleges to get her journalism degree. I want someone more intelligent than myself in charge for a change. This country is in desparate need of a health care plan, I know, I am self employed and uninsured, insurance rates for individuals are unreal here. We need to stopp wasting money, rebuild our economy, bring our troops home from wars that will persist long after we leave, that ten billion a month would buy a lot of health insurance. You really need to live here to understand the flow of thought in the USA, those who make the least money, and have the least education, are the staunch and dedicated republican base, that we hear so much about. It is my hope that Obama will win this race, and give the USA some hope, respect and dignity back
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#78. David_de_Jong: "I've just watched Reagans ex Chief of Staff endorse Obama during a talk show on CNN. He reckoned that Powells speech was "the good housekeeping seal of approval"."
The downside of that analogy is that the Seal of Approval from the magazine was the result of a payment for it, not a spontaneous gesture. Who knows what payment-in-kind has been promised in return for nice words?
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#187
Not liking paying tax doesnt (necessarily) mean you are selfish.
Just because you don't want the government taking the money you earned and spending it on what it thinks is appropriate (wars, politicians' pensions, bridges to nowhere, etc) doesn't mean you don't care about other people.
IIRC, in terms of foreign aid as a percentage of GDP, US government aid + US charity = UK government aid + UK charity.
So on that front, the Americans are no less caring than we are, and may even be more so (we need government compulsion to match their donations).
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Well, it?s nearly over ? only 1 day to go.
I think my personal experience of this election (and of the postings on this blog), can be summed up with these quotes:
On Obama the ?intellectual elitist?;
How much longer are we going to think it necessary to be ?American? before (or in contradistinction to) being cultivated, being enlightened, being humane, and having the same intellectual discipline as other civilized countries?
Edith Wharton
US Novelist (1862 ? 1937)
On Palin?s grasp of current affairs;
Half of the American people have never read a newspaper. Half have never voted for President. One hopes it is the same half.
Gore Vidal
US Author & dramatist (1925 - )
On Various contributors to this blog;
It is, I think, an indisputable fact that Americans are, as Americans, the most self-conscious people in the world, and the most addicted to the belief that the other nations are in a conspiracy to under-value them.
Henry James
British (US ? born) author (1843 ? 1916)
As for myself;
The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit.
W. Somerset Maugham
English dramatist & novelist (1874 ? 1965)
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How about an end to US imperialism, nationalism, isolationism and a move toward the world citizen...the economic crisis is showing the blur in 'borders'...and Springsteen NOT a good example (oy..so Jersey old school) how about the genres that are mixing music from multiple cultural sources being heard 'round the world. Obama much better candidate to this end than McCain.
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What's wrong with a little seduction?
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109
I find most interesting about all of the opinions (and all of those in between) is that people HAVE the opinions to begin with.
==========================
Because as it is the worlds biggest bully economically and militarily people in other countries get pissed off.
(though that will change)
Just as most in spain might think Brits have a lot of drunken footee fans.
Brits living in Oxford or Stratford uponavon,or londoners encounter tyhe long lines of yanks who just DEMAND that there be special services for them.
Rick Steves of PBS warns american tourists of some off these pitfalls.
Like in the UK we prefer that people join the QUE at the back.
We prefer not to be shoved out of our seats by fat americans who cannot fit into a HUMAN size seat.
but for laughs you should check out Dennise Van Outen (now Dances with the stars in the US) and johnny Vaughn in the channel 4 breakfast show.
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"Soft imperialism" sounds like a margarine commercial.
What the rest of the world doesn't need is the "McDonaldization" of their culture.
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I would like to defend Justin here.
When he is talking about "soft imperialism" what he means (I think) is that we export our culture on the rest of the world, and they gobble it up. It can sometimes cause resentment (as in, other countries lose some of their culture when they gobble up ours) and makes people like us more at the same time because, who doesn't like the Boss??
Travel around the world and you will see American movies, hear American songs, and people use American slang (often in funny ways that you will never hear in the U.S.).
If Obama becomes president, I think a lot of Europeans will be forced to re-think their views of Americans in this world. I think we are generally veiwed as racist, self-absorbed, ignorant hicks by a lot of Europeans. Obama decimates that stererotype, and I hope he encourages others to look beyond it as well.
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202. At 4:10pm on 03 Nov 2008, Belmons wrote:
186. At 3:38pm on 03 Nov 2008, jcputn5349 wrote:
"I don't care if people laugh at me. I'm used to it because I'm a Christian, the only group that it is politically ok to discriminate against. I have nothing to lose."
Isn't that fair? For the last how-many-centuries it's been correct for Christians to sneer at (and persecute) non-Christians. Now you know what it feels like.
" I would rather not have to tell you later "I told you so," but I already know that if O wins and you voted for him, that is exactly what you will hear and will be accountable for."
You are going to feel silly when Obama wins and disaster does not strike. Well, no you won't, because like all really religious folk you have a mind which is a closed, self sustaining system. You'll work out some tortuous argument proving that you were right all along. Have a nice Wednesday!
---------------------------------------------
You are going to feel silly when Obama wins and disaster does not strike. Well, no you won't
---
Because you're right wingers will do your best as the party that doesn't accept defeat to do nothing but try to screw it up so you have a chance with the socialist traitor from alaska
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Imperial is quite an interesting word. Its root is "imperium", the power Rome granted to people who functioned more or less as generals.
The Republic changed into an empire due to power shifting from the republican institutions to the "imperator." At first these imperators preferred not to call themselves kings (rex) because of the Roman history of overthrowing these kings to establish the republic.
Over time, "imperator", along with "Caesar", the first imperator,
came to mean an office even higher than king. So the Russian monarch called himself Czar and the German Kaiser, both derived from Caesar, while the English monarch used the word emperor.
Reasonable people may disagree whether the US is "imperialistic." Certainly it fits Lenin's definition of that word as one of the phases of capitalism.
One may reject this definition, however, on the grounds that it is a poor use of words; that the US form of government is not an empire, so therefore it cannot be imperialistic. On the other hand, if one reaches back to the original meaning of imperator, one may argue that the US is imperialistic, in the sense of granting effective rule to generals in their prosecution of foreign wars. But since US generals serve under civilian authority, it is questionable how legitimate this argument is.
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197 that is why he is called" mostly erroneous" , if polite or" always wrong" when less so.
A sad sad individual with very little original thought in his head just a jumbled bunch of theories made up in delusional land.
He and the Gherkin have a lot in common.
So no you bother the emperor of wrong because he cannot understand.
Cannot, not, will not.
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When Biden Was Barack Obama
Some blasts from the past, and a very young-looking Joe...Peace and Auld Lang Syne
ed
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We are nearing, perhaps, the end of a conservative period in American politics. What has it brought us?
The salient features, to me, are:
1. Greater budget deficits
2. No reduction in the size of government
3. More frequent wars
4. Erosion of civil liberties
5. Tightening of immigration policies
What is remarkable is that every one of these policies is a rejection of traditional conservative goals.
Traditional conservatives favored decreasing the size of government, exercising fiscal responsibility, protecting individual rights against the government, keeping clear where possible of foreign entanglements and encouraging immigration to keep labor costs down.
How on earth has this happened?
One suggestion is that conservative voters may have been sold a bill of goods. Another is that they are not really conservative at all.
But if they are not really conservative, what are they?
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166 Magic
"Or did you really want me to spend 52 minutes on your source?"
I rather hoped that you would, you can not dip in and out of a people's suffering in a few seconds and understand it.
!70 Ed
Thanks, it's frightening. Personally I don't believe that even if Iran did obtain nuclear weapons they would ever use them aggressively. They know it would mean instant annihilation for them. The only way to solve the Middle Eastern problem is for Israel to move back to the 1967 borders.
I have posted this before but it is worth doing again for Magic:-
"Every time we do something you [Shimon Peres] tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Prime Minister,
Knesset, Tel Aviv, October 3, 2001.
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Not mine (credit to Trevor P. Hirst, writing to "Private Eye"), but I can't resist sharing this: "Vice President Sarah Palin" is an anagram of "Is perhaps devil incarnate".
You have been warned!
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#180 british-ish
164. sensibleBiologist asked a perfectly sensible question -
"Hey Justin, whens the last time a Springsteen song kept Soviets off your doorstep?"
The answer is
1. Justin played Springsteen songs and
2. Justin has never had Soviet tanks on his doorstep.
I keep pandas out of my house by playing the Beatles.
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Ed ...Egad ! don't encourage them . ( Though it would be funny!
"Springsteen's songs in a few years will be used as background for commercials advertising cars, ED drugs and laundry detergent."
e.g. "The Rising"?
Peace and tumescence
ed
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I see in 174 that MA has justified the theft and redistribution of the American Indians land- they had too much. He simultaneously opened the door for unpaid for occupation of vast uninhabited areas of the USA, as being morally acceptable by whoever has the force to do it.
As for jcnpt, he believes that US corporate taxes, at 20%, are the 2nd highest in the world. I can assure him that he's living in a dream world. There are many countries that would love to have such low corporate taxes.
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The Christian Right in America is a study in the perversion of Jesus Christ's message for political ends.
"Love your neighbor" has become "love your fellow right-winger."
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," has become, "do unto those filthy Moslems what they did to us -- but more."
"Blessed are those who are poor in spirt, for theirs will be the kingdom of heaven," has become, "Let the poor starve in the street and keep America strong against socialism."
"Blessed are the peacemakers," has become, "blessed are those who kill Iraqi insurgents." -- Keeping in mind that in a civil war, anyone can be called an insurgent.
These people are not Christians, not in any sense.
To the original post, economic centers have always been cultural centers, both because they have the resources to fund the arts and because highly skilled artists have the option of congregating around money. Rock and Roll started in America; the Beatles started in England but moved to America.
-FreeClench
ps - Can anyone tell me the difference between 'imperialism' and 'globalization?'
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Hello:
I am Alejandro, have 38 years, I am a direct son of Italians, and live in Buenos Aires,
Argentina.
As in the rest of the world, here we are very dependent on the Elections of the United States of America.
I believe, without dread of being wrong, that here the majority we wish that win Obama, for long motives of explaining in few lines.
I write to them them to clarify that, since one sees in all the means of the World, the the citizens and habitants of the United States of America are called "Americans", but, in rigor, also are American the citizens and habitants of the rest of the countries of the American continent, also are American the Boilvians, the Brazilian, the Chileans, the Colombians, the Argentinians, the Venezuelans, the Mexicans, the Cuban, the Peruans, the Panamanian ones, etc.
Then, the citizens and habitants of the United States of America must be named "North Americans", because they live in North America... ... ...
Kisses to my Aunt Gina Martino, she lives in Manchester with her sons Olga, Peter and George !!!
Thank you very much.
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#149
"Iraq is a quagmire threatening to become a new Vietnam. For Obama the important thing is getting out, not unequivocally winning. The US military could be chasing that jack'o'lantern for 100 years."
This is an interesting contrast to the news that I watch, which depicts Iraq as relatively stable with standards of living and security improving by the day. Terrorist attacks are on a sharp decline and most of the "bad guys" such as the old Ba'athists and the Al Sadr brigade have been coaxed into the political process.
Surely the latter developments have only been made possible (and continue to be possible) because the alternative to those people is the "big stick" which America wields?
Do you not think that taking away that stick (and what about the vast sums of money being sunk into the infrastructure?) will see Iraq revert to the in-fighting and armed conflict that have characterized the nation for the last 5 years?
If America withdraws its military, monetary and managerial support from Iraq now it will be an enormous blow to her allies (including us Brits), the Iraqi people and the Middle East at large, not to mention to the thousands of servicemen who have given their lives to try and make Iraq a better place.
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MagicKirin,
You say you have doubts about Obama? Are you trying to make me laugh or what?
Are you seriously suggesting that McCain is a better choice than Obama? McCain, the person who addressed congregants at a rally as "my fellow prisoners". I've just finished watching a video on You tube featuring the great John Cleese on NBC and even he was asking what would possess a person to vote for someone who refers to his congregants attending his rally as "my fellow prisoners", amidst guffaws of laughter. It goes without saying that Mr Cleese is pro-Obama.
MagicKirin, let Barack worry about Barack, as he's not a baby and he'll garner the right advice (regarding foreign policy etc.) from the people in the know, because he's intelligent enough to do so all by himself. Just be safe in the knowledge that barring a miracle, as I've been saying for the last 6 months, America will have it's first black president and history will be made. I've already got my champagne on ice.
Whatever the outcome, he's done me proud as a black British man, not just because he's clearly brilliant, but in the way that he has conducted himself with diginity, poise and pride throughout the primaries and this presidential campaign. His conduct and demeanour have been exemplary and nothing can stop him now.
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US Imperialism was evident in the Mexican War.
The Spanish-American was generated by three plotters in Washington in order to obtain coaling stations for a planned commercial invasion of China.
A phony story about Spainsh abuse of Cuban natives was cooked up, etc.
Puerto Rico was annexed. The Phillipines invaded and occupied for fifty years. Guam, Midway, etc. were all added. (After Hawaii).
Google "Smedly Butler" for a story by the Commandant of the US Marine Corps of his activities in Latin America.
Today, consider the invasion of Iraq to establish bases in the Mid-East and Western Asia; to secure oil; and to help Israel. Consider the desire to attack Syria and Iran.
It is a history of imperialist adventure.
(The workup of the Spanish-American War has a lot of features in common with NeoCon plotting of the Iraq adventure).
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202. You're pinning on US Christians the history of Europe, now? It's America's fault for that, too? hahahahahaaa We left for a reason. Unless you don't recall or never learned, Christians founded America because they ran away from European state-sanctioned persecutions against Christians--you know, the kind where elites establish Absolute Power over their lower bred countrymen through abuse of state power and build mercantile (not capitalist) empires off the backs of tiny colonies until tiny Christian colonists tell Europeans to go screw themselves? Nothing has changed.
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233. oldnat wrote:
#180 british-ish
164. sensibleBiologist asked a perfectly sensible question -
"Hey Justin, whens the last time a Springsteen song kept Soviets off your doorstep?"
The answer is
1. Justin played Springsteen songs and
2. Justin has never had Soviet tanks on his doorstep.
I keep pandas out of my house by playing the Beatles.
Yes. Of course. I'm a bit slow today. (It's Monday.)
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202. Look, honestly, I don't care who is president if the federal government would just leave us alone. They keep trying to part us from our earnings, which means I have to keep thinking about them. The Dems could put Ringo Starr in as President, and I would not care as long as they leave us alone. I am praying that I'm wrong about Obama, but the voices of too many business people and economists say that I'm right. The saying is Dems tax and spend, Reps borrow and spend. We're going to have to starve them out, which means NO NEW SOCIAL PROGRAMS; NO NEW SPENDING; CUT SPENDING AND TAXES. We can't afford it. Hate to bust your bubble; but O's tax plan will not work especially since the ones who are supposed to pay for it, won't; they will close their businesses or shrink even if they are sent to re-education camps. I'll hide them in my basement so they can write diaries until it is safe to come out.
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"We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it" Sharon.
This is certainly an interesting opinion, and ranges Sharon with the Jewish conspiracy theorists.
A more reasonable opinion might be that Jews, like Italians and Irish and a few others, are one of a handful of particularly influential ethnic groups, owing to their numbers and wealth. Unlike the Italians and Irish, however, they are very unfied around one particular political issue, namely the support of Israel.
Since, bizarrely IMO, Christian fundamentalists agree with them on this issue, it is very difficult for a US politician to get elected who is soft on Israel.
Nevertheless, to claim Jews control the US seems quite incorrect. In my home town of Pittsburgh, for example, if Jews are so powerful, why has a Jew never been elected mayor? (We've elected mayors of English, Irish and Italian descent.)
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Come on, Bruce Springsteen is out of touch with the American dream. He wants Obama to win to get the American Dream back. It never left, people just no longer want to work for it. If Bruce has not accomplished the American Dream then no one has. Mark my words, if Obama wins, the dream will be harder to get. You get what you work for, except under Obama. We will be living in a big welfare state. If it is going to be taken away and given to someone not willing to strive to do better, what motivation is there.
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~232
that's brilliant!
even if Sarah Palin doesn't become VP, she still anagrams to PIRANHA SAL!
Look out after the election Republicans!
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What Will We Do When It's Over?
Peace and yogaed
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re. 70. british-ish:
Well, it's not like any other country projects a uniform "brand" (I do hate that term when applied to entire countries). An American never knows what sort of Brit he's enountered, either, until said Brit speaks a few phrases and you can get a sense of where he is coming from. Is it going to be the intelligent and curious Brit, or the look-down-your-nose-at-the-colonial Brit? Why should America be any different in its diversity? But, following your story, I do think a tourist has no business commenting on the politics of a citizen of a country they're visiting. At a minimum, it's bad manners.
I agree, though, that Katrina was a shock. It was a shock to Americans, too. It really showed the incompetence of the Bush administration, in spite of their Master of the Universe pretensions. I mean, it's not like the hurricane came as a surprise, the way an earthquake can. Katrina also showed the best about Americans, however, because as soon as the need became apparent, there was a long steady stream of volunteers to help out, and a steady stream of contributions.
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All you people thinking of voting for McCain - think about what happens when he takes his vacation, or worse, if he dies is office. He is already older than his own father was when he died (of natural causes). Remember the palpable sense of fear when a Bush senior health scare nearly gave us President Quayle? A vote for McCain is a vote for the very real possibility of a President Palin. And McCain says Obama presents a risk! Please please please don't let this happen.
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Homework for MAII and jcputn5349: read Dee Brown's "Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee".
"Christians founded America because they ran away from European state-sanctioned persecutions against Christians" - jcputn5349
...and with the honourable exception of the Quakers, promptly started persecuting each other, not to mention "witches"; and justifying stealing land because the current inhabitants were "heathens".
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Redwhiteandermblue
NO! Some of them are, and they are shouting the loudest. There is an old saying, "Two Jews, three opinions."Gush Shalom is worth a visit.
Peace is with enemies
ed
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241.jcputn5349 wrote:
Unless you don't recall or never learned, Christians founded America because they ran away from European state-sanctioned persecutions against Christians--you know, the kind where elites establish Absolute Power over their lower bred countrymen through abuse of state power and build mercantile (not capitalist) empires off the backs of tiny colonies until tiny Christian colonists tell Europeans to go screw themselves? Nothing has changed.
Umm. Now which European states were not Christian? The Netherlands? The German states? Sweden? Denmark? Scotland? England? Switzerland? France? Portugal? Spain? Russia? The Italian City States? The Republic of Venice?
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re. 214. Nick-Gotts:
And we might as well mention the Philippines, which was an out-and-out colony from the Spanish-American War until after World War II.
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"If America withdraws its military, monetary and managerial support from Iraq now it will be an enormous blow to her allies (including us Brits), the Iraqi people" mattpryor
Oddly enough, the Iraqi people disagree. Every poll taken shows clear majorities wanting the invaders OUT.
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american50, what exactly is the american dream? please define it.
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#217 olgeezerfromVa
Thanks. That was worth reading.
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I was just wondering.
Were Mondays nice cuddly lovable things (like baby seals, for most people anyway) before Bob Geldof sang about them?
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Watchers at the polls Better than on (or off) the wall....
Peace and protectioned
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#105. watermanaquarius: "Re David_C :- Although I had hoped he had drunk enough of the O. kool aid . . . I still worry about the Hillary Clinton button that peeps out now and again from under the lapel of his double-breasted three piece suit. He is another gentleman however, despite the fact that he wears two different socks."
I can't entirely shake off my preference for Mrs Clinton - if I did, that would certainly indicate that I had doubts about her proposals, which I didn't. I would rather see almost any Democrat in The White House rather than an elderly man whose years are numbered, whose health is doubtful and whose proposals seem to be little improvement on those of the last eight years. This is compounded by his choice of running mate who lacks any viability but is as likely as not to become President should Mr McCain win. Indeed, a prediction by Nostradamus (!) reads
At the war's end:
The Feeble Kept One will strike down the Night
And his Imbecile Queen will rise from the snow
Bedecked in finery and the pelt of a wolf.
and has been interpreted to mean that McCain and Palin will succeed tomorrow. The descriptions seem particularly apt! With any luck, Nostradamus will be proven wrong, but I'm not betting my house on it.
As for my wardrobe, no double breasted suits; I've always thought they look far too ageing - check the British princes and you can see how inappropriate they are. But I have been known to wear mismatched socks, same colour (usually black) but with different patterns. You'd have to look very hard to tell the difference. But then, you're very observant.
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PredictionsHmmmmmm
Peace and prognostication
ed
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#244. RedWhiteandermblue: "In my home town of Pittsburgh, for example, if Jews are so powerful, why has a Jew never been elected mayor? (We've elected mayors of English, Irish and Italian descent.)"
Has one ever run for the office? If not, that would explain a lot!
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249. SDensley wrote:
. . .think about what happens when he takes his vacation, or worse, if he dies is office . . .A vote for McCain is a vote for the very real possibility of a President Palin.
Really, I don't know why some people get so het up about it.
She hates Washington, so she'll probably stay in Alaska. She likes hunting, so she'll probably get trampled by a moose, fatally bitten by a polar bear or eaten by wolves. Or Carla Sarkozy will chuck her out of the helicopter for winking at her husband.
Problem solved. Then you can have another election and get it right this time.
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no.244
"In my home town of Pittsburgh, for example, if Jews are so powerful, why has a Jew never been elected mayor?"
Check out Sohie Masloff 1988-1994.
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Those who get all panicky about 'socialist government intervention' or whatever they want to term it really ought to read Robert Peston's BBC blog entry:
"A new taxpayer-owned megabank".
Then they may get an inkling of how a rescue plan should work to everybody's benefit.
(Only, well, some of it is a bit technical, so I guess one or two people might not cope.)
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SHOCK STORY!
British PM Pals Around with Terrorists!
"On Sunday, he [Gordon Brown, British Prime Minister] met suspected members of al-Qaeda . . . in Saudi Arabia."
Just thought I'd set a small kitten amongst a couple of pigeons. I'm sure one or two will find that story from the BBC website useful.
----------------------
(I, er, sort of, well, following certain people's normal practice missed a bit out just to make it more exciting. I'd better own up though: he met them "during a visit to a "de-radicalisation centre".
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#257 british-ish
I'm retired.
What's a Monday?
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To jcputn5349,
You said:
"I don't care if people laugh at me. I'm used to it because I'm a Christian, the only group that it is politically ok to discriminate against. I have nothing to lose."
How would you classify Jesus Christ? - a liberal politically correct leftie?
(in the absence of a reply I'll assume that you agree)
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It won't make any difference at all.
Anti-Americanism is a secular substitute for religion. It is unquestionably here to stay.
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This will most likely be my last post as I will be very busy tomorrow.
To Justin Webb:
Thank You!
I have really enjoyed your blog and the opportunity to participate in the discussions.
To all posters:
Thanks to each and every one of you. I do love you all, even you cranky ones. You have provided great enjoyment and opportunities for me to learn. There has been much food for thought offered by so many of you. I will miss you.
I wish each and every one happiness, contentment and most of all peace.
Tomorrow night, any who wish to raise a glass in toast to Barack Obama, please know that I will be raising mine and thinking also of you.
Wish us luck and hope!
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As was noted in Wim Wenders' "Kings of the Road," "The Yanks have colonized our subconscious." Don't believe The Audacity of Hype.
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248. timohio wrote:
"An American never knows what sort of Brit he's enountered, either, until said Brit speaks a few phrases and you can get a sense of where he is coming from. Is it going to be the intelligent and curious Brit, or the look-down-your-nose-at-the-colonial Brit?"
I'm ashamed to say a lot of us do both, depending on the American . . . Cowboy hats and/or very loud check jackets tend to set the 'colonial' one off, I'm afraid . . .
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#260. Ed Iglehart: "PredictionsHmmmmmm"
If Fred Barnes does predict correctly, then he'll be called the political genius of all time! It must be very lonely for him in such exalted company.
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# 260
Ed and the Pundits' Pedictions.
I will be watching to see how Nate Silvers fares. His prediction is 347/191.
If he - with his acclaimed forsensic approach - is wrong, then its back to the drawing board for all the pollsters.
Meself - I won't be happy till the fat lady sings.
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259. David_Cunard wrote:
a prediction by Nostradamus (!) reads "At the war's end: The Feeble Kept One will strike down the Night And his Imbecile Queen will rise from the snow Bedecked in finery and the pelt of a wolf."
and has been interpreted to mean that McCain and Palin will succeed tomorrow.
Or, alternatively, when Obama finally pulls the troops out of Iraq McCain will abandon his second wife, fly to Alaska overnight and marry Sarah Palin?
(I prefer to look on the bright side of life. De dum, da dum di-dum-di dum. . .)
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Is any of the election coverage being streamed live on the internet? Any recommended sites? Cheers.
Btw, have been reading, not contributing today: some really good posts (segoya, ed, oldsouth, british-ish, David-C, olgeezer, redwhite and others) and a few delusional ones. Hope you'll all be around election night ... I have taken Wednesday off so I can stay up until I've had enough.
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What does Judaism in the Pittsburgh mayoral office have to do with Springsteen and imperialism? Anyway I say do away with all the "Us and Them Ism's"...practically have on the one side of the pond anyway with the EU, and then there's NATO...really its down to East and West and when the twain shall meet, or maybe East, Mid-East and West......
As for Springsteen - Pleeez there must be a better imperialistic musician symbol for America - I vote for Santana, or Tom Petty, or maybe Johnny Cash. Springsteen was chosel as an internal symbol of 'patriotism' since the GOP is trying to corner the market - he plays to "Joe the American (insert occupation) Six Pack Drinker". But if he wants to run for Mayor of Pittsburgh I bet he'd win.
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"(Both favor Israel over other Mideast nations"
Not according to a tape of Obama the LA Times is hiding
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Any person who tries to argue that redistributive taxation is Marxism or Socialism is a fool.
(looking at you jcputn).
Any person who says that Obama will raise taxes is a fool.
(looking at you McCain).
Any person that says small businesses will pay more tax under Obama is a fool.
Any person who says that the threshold figure for Obama's tax plan has been reduced from $250,000 is a fool.
Read his website. Listen to his speeches. Watch the debates. Anyone making less than $250,000 will not pay a penny more in tax. That includes small businesses and 95% of American families.
Anyone earning more than $250,000 (the wealthy and larger businesses) will return to the taxes they paid in the 1990s. They could afford it then and they can afford it now.
The effect is "spreading the wealth" just as the effect of the last 10 years has been spreading the wealth in the opposite direction. This is a correctional policy.
Nationalising private industry and ensuring the workers control the means of production - that's Marxism. Obama does not promise that and does not endorse that.
Anyone who tells you otherwise, here or on the campaign trail, is a liar, anyone who believes them is a fool.
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"There is an old saying, "Two Jews, three opinions."
On further review, you're quite right, Ed. I was generalizing in a way my own example could disprove. While not Jewish by any definition, I have Jewish ancestry, and firmly believe establishing a Jewish state in Palestine was a terrible mistake. (Not that I believe Jews living there now should be made to leave--the reason I think it was a terrible mistake is that it's made for an insoluble dilemma). Establishing a Jewish state in Bavaria would have had much more to recommend it, IMO.
What I should have said is that the pro-Israel lobby in the US is so powerful that it's difficult for US politicians to oppose it. There are many Jews who are not pro-Israel, on both the left and right. The Hasidim, for example, an interesting example of the latter, believe Jews have no business in Palestine until the Messiah comes.
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# 268 Timothy R444
That is the laziest comment I have ever read on these pages.
Are you saying that when the rest of the world are distressed by American militarism and greed for hegemony it is simply because we have no religion ?
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I read something curious in the NYT today. They say that because all the moderate Republicans will be knocked out of office, the party will go the way of the Palins.
It seems to me that that leaves the Republicans with a very narrow base. Can we hope for a third party? Almost one-third the voting public is independent and some assume that they would fit neatly into party number three. Wrong. They are independents, not joiners.
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Aqua: Cheers! and hope you can rejoin us soon.
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261
Has one ever run for the office? If not, that would explain a lot!
263.
Quite right. I remembered that she became mayor when Caligiuri died, but forgot that she was then elected.
So I'm wrong on all points. But at least I learned something--the old lesson about the importance of checking your facts.
The more general point I was trying to make, that despite what Sharon or anyone else says, Jews do not control American politics, I stand by.
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An American friend of mine sent me a video from this site. You put in someone's name and email address and they get a link to a video explaining how Obama lost the election by 1 vote because they didn't vote for him. It's quite amusing, even for someone like me who doesn't get to vote tomorrow. On the other hand, if you're an Obama supporter, and you know someone who will probably vote for Obama - if they vote.....
http://www.cnnbcvideo.com/taf.shtml?hp=1
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David # 259,
As usual a little gem dug up to inform us all. Nostradamus can not always be right eh?
Will cross my fingers for an honourable position for Mrs Clinton in the forthcoming top level positions in [hopefully] Obamas' government, but am doubtful that Obama might honour the belated family support, even if she would now want it.
There appeared to be a long delay with the moderators this morning getting the mention of Hillary and double breasted suit in the same sentence past the moderators net, where innocent jokes mentioning nuts for nuts or the physics of ellipsoidal objects seemed to fly in to print. Difficult to fathom the moderators editing criteria on deciding what tongue in cheek humour and simple factual statements should reach the sin-bin or not.
Regarding the black foot covering, with the different patterns. No problem. Now if only Obama can "sock it" to Mccain, then your [and our] America will finally be coming home.
Regards wma.
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# 269
Quit not!
No matter what the "topic", there will be untoward angles to explore.
Example:
how to organize an alternate, civilized, World if McCain/Palin wins.
Whether Obama, should he win, can set up a parallel administration in Washington between now and January 20th.
What the first 100 days would/should be like,
etc,
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Now that the mods have opened up, we have the perfect antidote to nihilist Timothy 444 with the lovely Aqua's message at 267.
Aqua ~ our hearts will be with you and thank you for all your wisdom and perception - more probably than we ever deserved. You have been an inspiration to us.
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Speak softly but carry a big stick--A soft word turns away raft. Springstien is a folk singer thereby his words have power. He tells the story of the Working Peoples who send their sons and daughters out to portect the monied and priviledged classes of American: The McCains and the Palins.
McCain talks about "US Americans" i.e. the "Real Americans". To be real one must be rich and powerful. The "Unreals" can only watch on the sidelines and hear how Obama is a "commie" who wants to redistribute the wealth that George W. Bush has already given to the Banks.
Springstien puts into song the truth that the propaganda of America hides: We fight our wars to protect the property of the elite, while they teach the lower classes to be patriotic, their children don't enlist unless it is in the Officer Corp so they can be Heroes, while our children die in the mud.
Speaking of Heroes, how did McCain get to be a hero? Perhaps he asks this question to himself. That is why he is so angry and thinks of some Americans as "UNREAL." Both he and Palin have declared the unrealness of some Americans. What does it mean to be an REAL AMERICAN? They have never explained this concept of Realness. However, Bruce Springstien has.
McCain and Palin should listen to some Sprinstien albums to understand the Realness of his message. And that all Americans who stand up to the plate and vote are real.
I got my Realness on Bloody Sunday crossing the bridge in Selma Alabama. I go my Realness under Bull Connor's warter hose. I got my Realness from a Dream of Martin Luthur King and from reading and understanding The King James Bible. I got my Realness from understanding where Bruce Springstien is coming from.
Get Real Brother and Sisters, Obama and Biden are makin' it real.
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#269 Aquarizonagal:
"Tomorrow night, any who wish to raise a glass in toast to Barack Obama, please know that I will be raising mine and thinking also of you.
Wish us luck and hope!"
Good Luck!
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ref #239
So let me get this straight you as a British citizen are advising me; the American citizen not to worry. Just leave it in Barack's hands.
Well one of the proud traditions is that every legal citizen gets the right to vote.
By the way, I have to wonder about your own bias. If Barack was white or asian would the bubbly still be on ice?
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My simple evaluation of the returns: If Obama takes Virginia, he has the election; if he takes Indiana or North Carolina, he has it by a landslide. If either happens I will start to fall asleep. My kids, however, will be whooping it up to the bitter end. They can wake me if he gets Arizona.
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For no.275self... and anyone else who would like live internet coverage of the elections with a little irreverent humour thrown in try:-
http://www.theyoungturks.com
On Wednesday I would be delighted to hear sen. Obama proclaim the words of someone much wiser than me:-
"WE ARE ONES THAT WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR"
Good luck America.
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268, Timothy.
"Anti-Americanism is a secular substitute for religion. It is unquestionably here to stay."
I think you are loopy.
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#267, 287
Salut, Gayola, Rathima andu atene, Bezuar, Saude, Zivjeli, Nazdrave, Proost, Sanon, Tervist, Skal, Ba'sal'a'ma'ti , A la sature, Salute, Sanitas bona, Chukbae, Mabuhay, Chia and Oogy wawa.
Alcoholic Sam
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# 288
~ to Marygrav ~
A tip of the hat and a bow of the knee. Lovely.
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"That is the laziest comment I have ever read on these pages.
Are you saying that when the rest of the world are distressed by American militarism and greed for hegemony it is simply because we have no religion ? "
*chuckle*
eightypercent: You may have many religions. I don't care.
But dislike of the people of another nation is impervious to logic. The sheer lunacy of anti-Americanism is not rational. It is an ideology, and as such cannot be discussed.
As for laziness - anti-American ideology is the very essence of laziness.
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#281
Marby,
I've been worried about that for while. It seems to me that if there is a wipe out tomorrow the Republicans will first blame everyone but themselves (it started already. Media Bias, Acorn. Vast left wing conspiracy, illegal aliens, Michael Mouse etc) and then lurch to the right.
I can only hope that some alliance of folks like Chuck Hagel, Olympia Snow, Arlen Specter, Newt and the like get together and start to carve out the core of a new Federalist party, or consolidate around a rejuvenated Libertarian party. We have to have an alternative or as a nation we will be in deep doo doo. And right now, the Republicans are not an alternative. The fact that they would even consider letting Joe the Plumbers mate run for congress is a dead give away.
God Bless America
And God bless you too.
Patriot Sam
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#290 Magickirin
"By the way, I have to wonder about your own bias. If Barack was white or asian would the bubbly still be on ice?"
Well if Obama were white I suspect the champagne corks would already be popping as he would probably be up by 15 points.
It is a pretty fatuous question, its about the policy choices, I for one would have backed Hilary over four more years of Bush policies.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
What??
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#52
Guns,
Brilliant! If we could find a way to charge for them it would also help the balance of payments, plus reduce unemployment in Vegas.
Sensible policies for an economic recovery.
Economist Sam
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The comments in the opening post seem a bit over-the-top, even for this blog.
So Sprinsgteen is an "agent for US dominance"? He is part of the "seduction" that the left practices?
Too absurd.
Surely there is an exercise of the will on the part of those who listen to Springsteen and buy his music? Surely this applies to various other "agents of domination"?
All of this nonsense portrays the people of Britain as helpless victims of those dreadful Americans, bringing in "agents" which they are helpess to resist.
Just incredible.
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"I think you are loopy"
allmymarbles: Is this really all you have to say? Rather lame.
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"If Barack was white or asian would the bubbly still be on ice?" MagicKirin
Yes: most lefties are not, unlike you, racists. The defeat of the Rethuglicans would be a cause of worldwide celebration whoever achieved it.
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288. At 8:26pm on 03 Nov 2008, marygrav wrote:
??the story of the Working Peoples who send their sons and daughters out to protect the moneyed and privileged classes of American: The McCain?s and the Palin?s.??
The Palin?s are privileged?? What planet do you live on? the daughter of a school teacher, and hardly rich !!
??Springsteen puts into song the truth that the propaganda of America hides: We fight our wars to protect the property of the elite, while they teach the lower classes to be patriotic, their children don't enlist unless it is in the Officer Corp so they can be Heroes, while our children die in the mud.??
Both McCain and Palin have son?s who are enlisted, get your facts straight. If when they are old enough, do you think Obama would let his daughters enlist? What is his real opinion of the Military and the sons and daughters of Americans who are serving in it?
Neither Obama or Biden have ?ENLISTED? sons, Biden in fairness has a son serving in Iraq as a f5 (LAWYER, legal team) who will hardly see action. But contrary to your wee rant here, both on the republican ticket do have enlisted children whilst none on the Dem ticket do.
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Interesting pre-election essay by Andrew Sullivan in the Sunday Times
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article5061437.ece
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278. At 7:50pm on 03 Nov 2008, StephenDerry wrote:
Any person who tries to argue that redistributive taxation is Marxism or Socialism is a fool.
(looking at you jcputn).
Any person who says that Obama will raise taxes is a fool.
(looking at you McCain).
Any person that says small businesses will pay more tax under Obama is a fool.
Any person who says that the threshold figure for Obama's tax plan has been reduced from $250,000 is a fool.
Read his website. Listen to his speeches. Watch the debates. Anyone making less than $250,000 will not pay a penny more in tax. That includes small businesses and 95% of American families.
Anyone earning more than $250,000 (the wealthy and larger businesses) will return to the taxes they paid in the 1990s. They could afford it then and they can afford it now.
The effect is "spreading the wealth" just as the effect of the last 10 years has been spreading the wealth in the opposite direction. This is a correctional policy.
Nationalising private industry and ensuring the workers control the means of production - that's Marxism. Obama does not promise that and does not endorse that.
Anyone who tells you otherwise, here or on the campaign trail, is a liar, anyone who believes them is a fool.
*********************************
CLINTON said the same thing, then got in power and raised taxes. Less of the calling people fools, wait and see what happens if Obama gets in, and then when he raises taxes on pretty much everybody who pays them (as of now) you would not appear such a fool for saying what you do now.
Obama will raise taxes NOT just on those who earn over 250,000 if you believe that you are the fool and you have been warned. My taxes will be raised by that obama and I know it already, I am a wee bit under 250,000 a year and I know its coming. You or anyone else like you who does not even live here, has NO right to tell me what to believe in
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RedWhiteandermblue@279
Couldn't have put it better!
BTW, can anyone substantiate that weird quote from Sharon which Jackturk gives? He's very specific about when and where it was said, but googling it only produces Nazoid and Islamist sites. Are the proceedings of the Knesset available anywhere?
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I have certain concerns about tomorrow. There's my innate pessimism, combined with the frequent tendency of electorates, in the US and elsewhere, to vote against my preferred candidate. [Primarily out of spite, if you ask me.]
But I do have one thing on my side.
Prophecy.
For it was written in The West Wing.....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/oct/30/westwing-television-usa-elections-obama
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All,
Why is anyone surprised that the Boss would support Obama (BTW the concert in Philadelphia was Awesome!)? This comes in a long line of great protest / issue songs. Personal favorites, and I invite others to pile on:
- This land is your land (Guthrie)
- Born in the USA (Springsteen)
- Allentown (Joel)
- Jesus Loves Me (But he can't stand you) (Austin lounge lizards)
- Love is a good thing (Crow)
- Not ready to make nice (Chicks)
Of course you could also add the whole Detours album to the list and just take Billy Bragg for granted.
The question I have is why are there no good right wing protest songs or issue songs? Or did I miss some?
Musical Sam
P.s. American50, to criticize the Boss as being out of touch is a bit like saying the Pope isn't Catholic.
Especially when you say he doesn't get the American dream and is the American dream. The problem with the dream is that while a few of us make it, many have their noses rubbed in it because the institutional barriers are too great for regular Joes to make the big $$$. If you are not white, wealthy and established the chances of making the dream true are slim to none, no matter how hard you work.
Obama wants to broaden that so he and Michelle are the rule, not the exception. Advancement based on talent, noy parentage.
If that makes it harder for us rich white bald fat middle class guys and our kids to rely on a tilted society with everything from college entrance to job interviews assisted by legacies and donations, so be it. Lets get back to a real America as the founding fathers wanted it, not the dumb patriarchal mediocrity we have today.
Springsteen not only get's that, he tries to change it with talent, energy and drive. The man should be admired for his talent and his dedication to working folks.
Socialist Sam
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#290
Magic,
Yes. I have a Bollinger Grand Dame 1990 on ice for the result.
The only pain is I am in France so I will get the result at breakfast time Wednesday. I'm not putting that in Mamosa, so I guess it's going be a long day.
Francophile Sam
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marygrav: In Post #288 you are portraying left-wing Americans as "real people" and conservatives as the "elite".
This is profoundly and deeply false, but it is an attractive and noxious fantasy that has a certain amount of appeal in other parts of the world as well as among the far left in the US.
Obama, Biden, Pelosi and the other Dems who run congress are the very essence of the elite. The weird fantasies of the 60s are long since proved false.
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Commander-in-chief (am)Bush has had his turn in using the neo-con tactics of "Hard Imperialism" to subdue a third-world power.
John McCain has stated that if elected he will leave Iraq only in "victory". Can someone explain what this means?
Will Iraq become another satellite, just as Israel is, of America?
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#303
Lame or not she has a point, that post was rather illogical.
As for Lefty singers seducing folks, absolutely. When you see the US from overseas you get our politicians and our culture. One Sheryl Crow offsets half a Dick Cheney in a lot of places.
And she can seduce me any day.
Oh yeah. Now we're talking.
Pervert Sam
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So there you have it, "American dominance" in a nutty nutshell. Lay down the law to all you squeamish anti-imperialists. 'The Boss' is not "foisting himself" off on you, the BBC says so! "We" invite them in! And you will, too! Get it! That includes you there in Jeddah and you over there in Moscow and you too, what's- your- name in Cape Town, see! Bruce and his "lefty" imperialists are part of "my" life, so dammit, they'll be part of your life, too! So stop humming them 'thar foreign tunes and get with the program! 'Cuz if y'all don't there's always that hard American military power trailing closely behind. Granted , cluster bombs and chemical and nuclear weapons obviously aren't nearly as potent as a shrieking electric guitar, but they can pack quite a wallop, nonetheless. And Obama Copacabana endorses that "brand" of bipartisan imperialism as much as bare- knuckles McCain. 'Booorn in the U-S-A! Kiiiilled in I-R-A-Q and Af-ghan-i-stan! booorn in the U-S-A ! tortured in A-B-U G-H-R-A-I-B!' Hum along, admiring world!
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#288,
Mary,
Such truth. We missed you.
Happy Sam
P.S. I would refer the honorable McCain and Palin to the response Jon Stewart gave for the rest of us some days ago
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# 281 and # 297
~ Marbles and Sam
When the Republicans come to review the past 8 years and the 2008 election, they should look at the part that Dick Cheney has played in all this.
I don't need to describe to you two the way that he has totally reversed the historic role of VP - but it is worth noting that, eschewing the normal role of VP standing to succeed his president, he put no effort whatsoever into succession planning.
Could it be that, having taken what he wants from it all, he is happy to walk away and leave his party in tatters ?
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CNN posts Obama's Grandmother in Hawaii has passed away - God Bless her.
Shame on those who accused his campaign of manipulating that situation.
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#310 - Can you add "Dancing in the Streets" - any cover, to the list of favourite songs and God willing we'll play it tomorrow until the record breaks?
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# Sam at 310
And you can add to your list the new one from this campaign.
Will.i.am's "Yes We Can"
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~ and the right always try to usurp "Jerusalem" - as if.
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What is all this about Springsteen? Who cares what an over-the-hill pop singer thinks about a candidate?
He is another fabulously wealthy left-wing celebrity giving lectures. His faux-blue-collar routine is about as convincing as Micheal Moore, and ran out of steam years ago.
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Sam's question about absence of right wing songs :
Wagner usually gets them going.
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John-in-Dublin: I just read the Sullivan link.
He attempts to convince himself and his readers that Obama is really a centrist at heart.
All of this shameless nonsense really is depressing. I think it is likely that Obama will win, but he is neither moderate nor centrist. He is a standard left-wing Democrat.
Surely those who support him should at least have the decency to tell the truth.
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# 318 - Frayed Cat
Oh no.
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307 bluepaddy13: so you earn just under 250k, lets see thats about 150k (conservatively) in UK pounds. In my book that makes you rich, certainly not your average Joe! So would you mind contributing to this site financially? And seeing as we (Brits) are paying for it I think we'll say anything we like. Forgive me if I don't weep for you if you happen to drift above 250k and have to pay an extra 3 percent.
PS: I earn the princely sum of around 18K (UK) and pay in total about 30 percent of my earnings to the government.
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#307
Ok Paddy, by inference since I do live 'here' and earn a lot more than $250k I guess by your logic I can tell you.
Suck it up.
We spend more than we pay. Period. That has to stop. Period. Middle class incomes have dropped over the past 8 years by 3-4%.
You make close to $250k. Congratulations you are in the top 3% of earners in the country. The top 3% of the wealthiest country in the world.
If Obama is true to his word, and we have only the word of McCain that he won't be, you'll be OK. If you make more than $250 and you have a 3% raise on your marginal income, pay it. If you can't, you are living beyond your means and need to get your poop grouped financially anyhow.
So think about the 4.3 billion people in the world who are worse off than you. The 290 million less well off in this country. Then whine about paying a grand or two more in tax to help those folks out. i hear this line all the time from the moderately wealthy.
'I earned it. It's mine mine mine. give me MY money'. Then bitch like crazy when the tax funded school budget gets cut.
What a bunch of self centered egotistical short sighted crap. You should be ashamed.
Angry Sam
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can we put proles and MA2 in a room together?
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frayedcat@318. What a shame she didn't live to see his triumph. Cue the raving righties complaining that he should have withdrawn from the election and stayed at her bedside! Or that he had her poisoned to garner a sympathy vote.
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#317
Eighty,
I suspect it has more to do with Rove, and ultimately Bush. Personally I was turned off by the party when they treate Arlen Specter shamefully and started selecting folks for office based on idealogical purity. Cheney is and has been doing his own thing for a while. But I really think the blame for this sorry state of affairs lies with Bush. ruined the economy, killed his part. Coming back to Viz characters for a second, Bush would now have to be Suicidal Sid.
Comic Sam
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312 Timothy R444: Oh the liberal elite conspiracy, again. Whereas Bush, Cheney etc are just down to earth guys and gals like the rest of us. Jeez ...
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#320
Like that. Thanks!
Ethnomusicologist Sam
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#303
Timmy
My earlier response was censored, so I'll try again. Moderators, I apologize.
Lame or not, she has a point. That post was a stick short of a bundle.
Psychologist Sam
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As Obama's grandmother had cancer, she's now out of pain.
It would have been good if she'd been able to see his success, but she must have been delighted with him at her end anyway.
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ref #298
Then I can respect your choice for that if you agree with his policies and positions.
But the original poster seems to only care that Obama is black.
And like you it's policies, if John Edwards had been the nominee my feeling would have been the same.
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# 322 TimothyR444 and Bruce Springsteen
I didn't realise how right I was when I called correspondent Timothy a Nihilist.
In September he wrote on this blog :
"McCain is clueless when it comes to the economy. He has virtually no interest in the subject."
Anything you do feel positive about, Timothy ?
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you go proles, dont hold it back!
now are how many Americans view their country this way? And how many can absorb and analyse this type of critque without reference to anti-americanism?
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#322
Timmy,
The 500,000 folks who went to his concerts and volunteered for Obama as a price of entry.
Bummer that McCain couldnlt find someone to do that.
Hey, there's an idea. Lets blame Springsteen for the election result. Unfair contribution, his time is worth waaay more than the statutory limit.
You saw it here first.
Rocker Sam
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#323
'Kill da wabbit. Kill Da Wabbit'
Sam Fudd
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#328
Truths,
Can we throw in a few firearms?
Gunner Sam
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#318 Frayedcat
"CNN posts Obama's Grandmother in Hawaii has passed away - God Bless her."
I checked the BBC news page in the hope this would turn out to be a false alarm, sadly it's true, a terible shame that she couldn't have lived to see tomorrow's result. Oh and fair warning, if I see any cynical post about this topic, and you know exactly what I mean, I'm going to refer them, and I hope all sane posters here would do the same.
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307/bluepaddy
(You really make £150,000 a year? I could retire within 5 years off that.)
However my point is you now change your accusation, you are no longer attacking what Obama is PROMISING, you are now attacking what you BELIEVE he will actually DO in the complete absence of any evidence, and completely contrary to his actual stated position.
Well I can do that to. I believe McCain will sell California to China to pay off the national debt. I think that's shocking and irresponsible and no reasonable person should vote for McCain on that basis. Stick with Obama, he won't sell California to the Chinese.
Wait and see what happens when McCain gets in...
Oh, I also believe he's going to nuke Chicago, because they annoy him over something. Wait and see, you'll see. Vote Obama.
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Conspiracy to set up coaling stations in China. Occupation of Cuba and the Phillipines for a few decades after the Spanish were thrown out, capture of a handful of Spanish Missions and villages in hundreds of thousands of square miles in the mid 19th century, possession of Puerto Rico where they have a plebecite every five years where they could opt for independence if they want it, possession of Guam, American Samoa, and the US Virgin Islands. Is that the best case you green with envy enraged American bashers can make for an American Empire? Pretty feeble stuff when compared to the real thing. How about an Empire that occupied one quarter of the entire earth and enslaved people on every continent on which the sun never set for around three hundred years? How about an empire that stretched from the Danube River to the Pacific ocean that killed well over a hundred million people in less than 75 years? How about an empire that wiped out entire civilizations in Mezo America that had been around for thousands of years, all to steal their gold. How about an empire that stretched from the Amur River to the Phillipines, from islands east of Japan to India occupying all of southeast Asia, an empire so brutal that 63 years after its demise the rage of the decendants of its victims has hardly diminished. Now those were empires. Some lasted for centuries. Many trafficked in people as we traffic in cattle or hogs. By what is really meant by empire, the US doesn't rate worth mentioning. What about economic empire whatever that is. Were it not for American investments, countries like Ireland would still be a bunch of ragged potato farmers. Western Europe would still look like Eastern Europe did under the USSR. Japan would still be making paper dolls and cheap toys. So it all comes down to Bruce Springstein, Born in the USA. What an imperial army of one he makes. Enough to make one quake in one's boots with fear.
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327: Well put angry sam!
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322, Timothy.
I agree. All these celebrity endorsements are nonsense. Who cares. And since when does being an actress or a musician make you a political pundit. They are about as profound as Joe the Plumber (alias Mr. Clean).
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Okay something is happening at fivethirtyeight.com, McCain's win percentage has dipped below two percent!
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328, selfevident.
"Can we put proles and MA2 in a room together?"
Padded?
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"I think it is likely that Obama will win, but he is neither moderate nor centrist. He is a standard left-wing Democrat." Timothy 444
If he were a "standard left-wing democrat" (e.g. Kuchinich, Gravel), then in any sane terms, he would be regarded as moderate and centrist. Unfortunately, he's well right of that.
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#318,
May she rest in peace.
Pax Vobiscum
Sam
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"We offer our deepest condolences to Barack Obama and his family as they grieve the loss of their beloved grandmother. Our thoughts and prayers go out to them as they remember and celebrate the life of someone who had such a profound impact in their lives." --Sen. John McCain
Obama's grandmother has given our nation the gift of momentary togetherness with her passing at the end of a long hard-fought campaign. I will still vote for McCain, my heart goes out to the Obama family.
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'the right always try to usurp "Jerusalem"' - eightypercent
The amusing thing is, they don't seem to have a clue what it's about! Consider what these lines, sung by ultra-respectable Tory ladies at the party conference, are actually referring to!
"Bring me my bow of burning gold! Bring me my arrows of desire! Bring me my spear ! O clouds, unfold! Bring me my chariot of fire!"
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#331
self-evident truths
"Oh the liberal elite conspiracy, again. Whereas Bush, Cheney etc are just down to earth guys and gals like the rest of us. Jeez ..."
In this case, the truth is not self-evident for you.
I am not a Bush supporter and I am not a neo-conservative. That is the problem with making assumptions.
There are other choices besides the left-wing antics of Obama and the interventionism of Bush.
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It is surely a tragic and sobering time for Obama - and I'm sure someone in John McCain's campaign must have let out a groan of frustration at the news.
They are unfortunate in that there may be a sympathy vote for Obama, however one could argue that they are fortunate it didn't happen a couple of days earlier and render all their closing attack adds as coming across as cruel and inconsiderate.
And I'm also nervously aware that analysing the political effect of such a tragic event is itself a little cold and inhuman. But in such an important election, such things can have significant effects.
One final point, the West Wing Prophecy of a minority Democrat contender campaigning against a (once-) liberal Western senator is given further haunting credence by an unfortunate death affecting the candidate in the very final stages.
Were those guys psychic?
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Redwhiteandermblue (279),
No offence intended nor taken. I actually envy you your mixed blood (and hope it comes with some tradition/culture) - mine's far too concentrated WASP (with a tiny bit of Amerind) for comfort. I, too, rate the Zionist project as one of the most unfortunate mistakes of the past century, though understandable. I commend these signatories to all who care.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Pax/,,,
ed
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"John McCain has stated that if elected he will leave Iraq only in "victory". Can someone explain what this means?
Will Iraq become another satellite, just as Israel is, of America?" - lordchunkyM
Well that's certainly been the consistent aim of US policy under Bush, and would be under McCain. But McCain's going to lose. What Obama will do is hard to say.
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Spare a thought for Obama on the loss of his Grannie - too soon ;-(((
Absent Friends, Slainte!
ed
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ooops numerical error: that should be around 22/23 percent including NI. I should explain that I don't 'hate' the rich, or those that win in the game of life, but it does irritate the hell out of me when those that have plenty think that a tax cut will be an incentive to them but not the poor. Like many posters here I would prefer to pay as little to the government as possible, but we need certain services, and some of those are best provided by government. If there is a need for greater taxation (assuming that the political argument has been won), the it seems entirely fair to me that the greater burden should fall on those who can afford it.
Here's a couple of ideas: no consumption tax, just income tax, with very few loopholes. Very low starting income tax rates (say 5 -10 percent) for low earners. (point being that as many people should contribute as possible - so they engage more)
A simplified tax code so that politicians and economists cannot blind us with figures.
Just a couple of ideas for discussion.
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"I can only hope that some alliance of folks like Chuck Hagel, Olympia Snow, Arlen Specter, Newt and the like get together and start to carve out the core of a new Federalist party, or consolidate around a rejuvenated Libertarian party. We have to have an alternative or as a nation we will be in deep doo doo." - SamTyler1969
Tell you what, you could even try to break out of the two-party system, giving the electorate a real range of choices, like proper democracies.
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#336
eightypercent
You have done me the honor of looking up other posts I have written about other subjects. While that is very interesting - and I am a fascinating poster - we might want to stay on the topic.
I certainly do not feel positive about anti-Americanism. I am not a nihilist, but I am very cautious about what I support and believe in.
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#335 MagicKirin
"ref #298
Then I can respect your choice for that if you agree with his policies and positions.
But the original poster seems to only care that Obama is black.
And like you it's policies, if John Edwards had been the nominee my feeling would have been the same."
And I can respect that Magic, we can but hope that whoever wins will try and heal the divide that seems to have opened up in US society.
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#10 redagast
"America's reputation in the world as a beacon of hope and liberty and all the other warm and fuzzy words that get bandied about, is in tatters. I don't mind Americans as such but I can't stand America. The USG has been like a bunch of foxes guarding the hen house.
Almost like a cross between the Mafia and the Nazi's have been running (and ruining) America since 2000 and it has been an absolute disaster."
Thank you redagast for this succulent slice of anti-Americanism at it most flamboyant and extreme.
It's impossible to fight this sort of fanaticism and bigotry. Where does one start?
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bk9061
"you go proles, dont hold it back!
now are how many Americans view their country this way? And how many can absorb and analyse this type of critque without reference to anti-americanism?"
Well, certainly there are some who do. But it would be difficult to avoid the term anti-Americanism regarding this "critique" as it is the very definition of it.
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Thanks Justin, im glad your not a voter. Obama is harddcore left for sure.
Its so ironic that as , and a Mccain supporter
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Nick (308),
Dunno about Knesset proceedings, but I have the same quote in another source, here, along with many other revealing quotes. The quote is attributed thus:I agree that AIPAC don't actually 'control' the USA, but they have a very toxic influence.Peace and Clarity
ed
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"Timmy,
The 500,000 folks who went to his concerts and volunteered for Obama as a price of entry.
Bummer that McCain couldnlt find someone to do that.
Hey, there's an idea. Lets blame Springsteen for the election result. Unfair contribution, his time is worth waaay more than the statutory limit.
You saw it here first.
Rocker Sam"
There are two Tims on this thread, so please be specific when you are referring to the post.
As for Springsteen, I did enjoy him when I was younger, but his "ordinary guy speaking for the masses" routine is pathetic. Sorry to interfere with your celebrity worship.
As for McCain: what makes you assume I am a supporter of him? I am not.
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340 Sam: Hell yes! Kind of an ideologue death match. Who's your money on?
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#321
Eighty,
I recall that is owned by England Rugby fans?
inquisitive Sam
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Sam,
Merle Haggard?And you left out Mr Zimmerman...;-(
Peace and God on Our Side
ed
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no offense here but you brits sure are quick to accuse someone else of being "imperialist". And just so you know Obama is not going to miraculously rescue America. unfortunately our government is occupied by proffesional politicians who serve their own interest over anything else. the president of the united states has only slightly more power to create policy as the queen of england. oh yeah, and we're all going to be speaking chinese in 3 years. "imperial dominance through fiscal dominance" my foot.
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Sam:
Why did'n't we get 'Jack Black and his dog Silver' to look for Bin Laden? As I recall he uncovered Adolf Hitler at a village fete.
ps: Who would you suggest as Aldridge Prior, Hopeless Liar? (Clinton, Nixon?)
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It is a sad occasion when any relative passes away, and even more so when one so close dies. It is a great shame Obama's grandmother is not around to witness tomorrow, but I'm sure that doesn't diminish her pride in him.
AsaScot, Nick-Gotts, if you insinuate again that anyone would try to score political points over her death (when in doing so you are guilty of what you claim to be trying to warn off), then be assured that I will be reporting your posts as grossly offensive.
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And cheers to Aquarizonagal
Slainte!
ed
And Sam, BRAVO for your Postscript!
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#343
Marcus,
An angry post but perhaps a valid one. The Spanish / Portuguese empires were terrible. Britains was one of trade and governance with the possible exception of India, which was freed and then raped. Compared to these, America has been and is a remarkably restrained and democratic world power.
But we miss the empire that should be closest to your heart.
What have the Romans ever done for us?
Samius Publicanus
P.S. The Aquaduct
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"Can we play nice, please boys and girls" as I am sure one of my primary teachers once said.
1. Justin throws up (sometime literally it seems) stuff for us to use to start discourse. It mostly seems to be heavily ladened with sarcasm and (often awful) humour. It does well enough and has introduced me to particularly mindboggling links that I would never have found. It does not mean it purports to buy any of it.
2. It is interesting to see that some of our more red bloggers have come around at last to acceptance. You blues can start being nice to them again and give then a virtual coffee.
3. However we still have some rather odd conspiracies coming through rather like over the Hamilton 5th place in the Brazillian Grand Prix (Motor sport). A young black driver who, yes at points, has been a tad arrogant but in no-way deserves the vitriol sent his way on a sporting blog. He won the Formula 1 Drivers championship as the youngest ever champion. Sorry to go off the point but like with Hamilton I can't help feeling there is still a horrible underbelly of racism that hasn't quite been swept away across the west.
Good luck with your votes tomorrow my American Friends. I hope the democrats win but that is me. Don't worry yourselves about Obama... he's right of me and my anarchist and communist friends think I am somewhere right of Ghengis Khan.
Ho Hum
"I'd like to teach the world"
"Education is the start of everything that is understood"
"Everything should be as simple as possible but not simplified"
Signing off
Empty
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#237 - Then, the citizens and habitants of the United States of America must be named "North Americans", because they live in North America...
Hello, Alejandro!
I know that the Americas consists of many countries, not just mine. However, for the same reason you cite, we can't be called "North Americans" either, without causing the same problem to the Canadians and Mexicans, who also inhabit North America.
I believe the problem here stems from "United Statesians" being a bit too difficult to say.
Does anyone have any idea of what the citizens of the U.S. could conveniently be called (please be nice! ;P ) aside from Americans?
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Aren't you taking it a bit too personally, #341? Anyway, since you're such a fan of his, just think how many extra sympathy votes obama will get because of it.
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#327. SamTyler1969 "since I do live 'here' and earn a lot more than $250k . . ."
#311. "I have a Bollinger Grand Dame 1990 on ice for the result."
Really! Even if you added six zeros to what you earn, you could not buy a bottle of 'Bollinger Grand Dame 1990' since La Maison Bollinger does/did not produce such a cuvee. However, Veuve Clicquot Ponsardin does/did produce La Grande Dame 1990.
More mistakes like that and we're going to doubt not only your earning capacity but everything else about you. For all we know you might really be drinking Andre.
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#344
I apologize. I needed to vent.
Sad Sam
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343, MAII
Short of a touch more spite that crept into tone of last few sentences - I must largely agree with and defend your historical perspective.
America and empire, most of the time, was like the chasing dog that caught he school bus - once we had it we weren't sure what to do with it. We were a little or a lot less harsh or brutal, depending on which of the 'professional' empires one chooses to compare with from the c.15th - 20th century era of empire by force.
I'm not sure if we've sorted out the newer era of economic and culture empires yet...
By the way, it's not too late to see the light and vote for Obama, MAII
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347 Allmy: yep, it'll muffle the gunfire ...
sad news about Obama's grandma, it would have been wonderful for her to be around tomorrow night ...
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Bloggers,
I would like to offer one late night observation. This blog, throughout the election, has been an interesting place to see the views of both American and (mostly) European folks views on our nation, culture, government, values and lives.
I have learned from every one of you. I salute you, and can only hope that this discussion continues after tomorrow.
Because at the end of the day, the more we talk, the more we understand, the more we share. The better we are. We don't have to agree. But folks coming together across the globe has to be a good thing.
I commit to keep this going post election. I hope you will too.
Good night, good luck, and may your gods be with you.
And as Rod from Avenue Q has been saying to times square for months now:
'Not voting sucks.'
Vote tomorrow, live our dream. And whoever wins let us do our best to unite America and make our country rise.
Voter Sam
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Let's not be so hard on Justin. He is just facilitating a dialogue. Those of you pulling out dictionaries and looking up the word imperialism should check out the OED and make sure his version isn't somewhere amongst the entries.
Besides, he is a Brit--last I checked they had a good long monopoly on history. If anyone has the credentials to dither with etymology, it certainly is the BBC's North American editor.
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352 TimothyR444: I did'n't assume you were. I was just criticising the notion that it is always the liberals who are the elite. You were criticising the opposite. I could go into definitions etc, but I think it is safe to say that the 'elite' are by nature conservative (small c), because they are at the top of a system that has served them well; why would they want to change it? This is true of all power brokers, whatever side of the political spectrum they are on. The real elitists are the ones we hear very little about ... and we certainly do not vote for them ...
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#357
Self,
We need a way to tax tourists for the stuff they consume. A sales tax is the only way to do that, regressive as it is.
Flat tax is BS. How about a 100% estate tax? Earn what you get, live what you earn? Now there's a republican concept.
Economist sam
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Am not a conspiracy theorist, but I do think there are shady goings on behind the scenes. To what degree our political elites, and by extention our representatives are connected to them is a matter of debate ...
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#365
Timmy,
I use numbers to ID the posts I respond to.
On the McCain thing, I didn't say you support him. I opined he does not have any superstar support.
Your point?
Sensitive Sam
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353, Stephen.
An analysis of McCain's astrological chart was made in January 2007. It said he would fail to be elected president.
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#356: I am too busy mourning the loss of Ed Iglehart's marbles. What a loon!
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Toot
God Bless
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This I borrowed from FiveThirtyEight.com.
An Obama campaign worker explains why this election has mattered so much to her:
"I truly believe that the example of how Obama has lived his life, what he has learned, his many years of grass roots activism to improve the lives of people, how he has coped with racism and being the ?outsider? connect to the countless layers of American society. In-group and Out-group designations are alive. Obama speaks to them because he has lived it; the living-of-it gives him the right to talk about inclusiveness. He personifies hope for a better future for our fractured and hurting country."
So, as to he question, why does the world "invite them in" (that is, The Boss and Obama)?
It's dead simple, really. There is something genuine about the message both men communicate. Something that makes us think about who we are, how we got here, and where we are going. Bruce uses pop music, Obama uses political rhetoric. Both, at their best, can move us.
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342. At 10:55pm on 03 Nov 2008, StephenDerry wrote:
307/bluepaddy
(You really make ?150,000 a year? I could retire within 5 years off that.)
What exactly I make is none of your business.
However my point is you now change your accusation, you are no longer attacking what Obama is PROMISING, you are now attacking what you BELIEVE he will actually DO in the complete absence of any evidence, and completely contrary to his actual stated position.
I am attaking what he is PROMISING, he promised to roll back the Bush tax CUTS, that means in case you have not figured it out, TAXES for everyone will rise, he will also tack on raises anyway, so your rant is inaccurate, EVERYONES taxes will go up, jsut like it does under every Democrat. PERIOD
Well I can do that to. I believe McCain will sell California to China to pay off the national debt. I think that's shocking and irresponsible and no reasonable person should vote for McCain on that basis. Stick with Obama, he won't sell California to the Chinese.
That is just plain dumb
not worth a reply.
Wait and see what happens when McCain gets in...
Oh, I also believe he's going to nuke Chicago, because they annoy him over something. Wait and see, you'll see. Vote Obama.
even worse than the sentence above, absolute garbage. I am putting the alarm on for 0430 hrs to get to the voting location
Good night from me
VOTE McCAIN
There are actually more people than you in here understand dislike Obama's policies, I spoke to several from the train today out of Penn, who saw my Button, "NOBAMA" with a big white flag ! they came and told me, we are McCain too. Maybe Obama will win tomorrow but you can take this to the bank, HE IS no bipartisan politician he is total Partisan left wing liberal, McCAIN is more Bipartisan than Obama the RECORD proves it. If you think Obama is going to unite the country you are very mistaken, he is going to receive the same treatment the left have given Bush, that is not threats its a promise.
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#366
Self,
I believe that Marcus would win. While I generally disagree with his conclusions, I do understand where he is coming from. And I thin he ius cold and reasoned enough to draw faster.
Analytical Sam
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Well well well the last 8 years what has happened? We saw the fall of WTC 7 with no official explanation yet this building was taller then any in San Dieago and we have never witnessed a " demolotion fall" of a steel structure building due to fires and it was not hit by a plane.... still no answers
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One More Time!
Yeeeee-Haaahhh!
ed
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seanspa,
Report what you like to whom you like, you creep. I can only think you haven't seen any of the ludicrous paranoid garbage the raving righties have been posting here.
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#370
Self,
I earlier put John McC in that role and based on CNN's fact checker today I will stick with that. Sarah is Farmer Palmer.
Bill I had as Sid the Sexist.
Terry I struggle with but I think W fits.
Viz Sam
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#377
Sir,
I recant. It is a grande anee.
Wrong Sam
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seanspa@341,
I draw your attention to Cartbeforepony, #376.
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Sam:
"The question I have is why are there no good right wing protest songs or issue songs? Or did I miss some?"
Any 'country' song? (Oh, no, sorry, you wrote 'good' didn't you?)
"The only pain is I am in France ..."
Shouldn't you be transferring your allegiance to Carla then? She sings protest songs as well. (Everyone protests when she sings, anyway.)
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381. Sam.
"Not voting sucks."
I heartedly disagree with you. There are times when I didn't vote because I thought all the candidates were rotten choices. I have no obligation, nor does anyone else, to vote for a candidate just because he is "the lesser of two evils." That is not what choosing our national leader is about.
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381 Sam: nice : )
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MAII@343
1) You dishonestly omit the theft of practically the entire land area of the contiguous 48 states USA from its earlier inhabitants. The colonisation of Hawaii is also worth a footnote.
2) Your whining would have some justification if I were a halfwit nationalist like you. I wholeheartedly condemn European imperialism. The point is, the growth of the USA is just part of a larger process, which may be called the Great European Land Grab, and which has seen most of the land of North and South America, Siberia and Australasia seized, by Europeans, by force or fraud.
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geomapgirl@375,
I used to tease nationalist Americans by calling them "Usanians" (us Brits being of course "Ukanians"), until someone pointed out to me that the USA is the only country with "America" in its official name - so I thin k after all you do have a right to use the name "Americans".
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383 selfevidenttruths
There are two kinds of elite, the social elite, who have money and power and houses, who are conservative (big C and small c), and the liberal elite, who have brains and ideas and a conscience.
I don't think there is any crossover at all. The "elitist" perjorative is always impliedly the liberal variety. Most Americans seem to respect those who are richer than they are, but resent those who are smarter. In the rest of the world it's the other way round.
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The question I have is why are there no good right wing protest songs or issue songs? Or did I miss some?"
Merle Haggard?
-----------------------
Hey, I'll fix yer flat tire, Merle! (Don?t git yer sweet country picking fingers/ all covered with earl/ Yer a honky I know/but Merle, you got soul . . . )
How ?bout John Prine. (Sorry, John, I know it ain?t true)
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Very sad that Obama's Granny won't see history made tomorrow. I can't add to what Andew Sullivan says here.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/11/barack-obama-fo.html
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Greeting and salutatons from Chicago
I know this is the night before the election but with the amount of postings throughout the day some of you may need a nap . You guys have been at it all day.
Need to be bright eyed and busy tailed tomorrow as I want to be wide awake for the new direction in Amercia .
Good ol "Hissoner" himself Mayor Daily announced on the 6:00 news that he isnt going to tell anyone not to come down to the park tomorrow because its a historic day .My prediction :The number will be over a million as the weather is suppposed to hold up in the low seventies tomorrow .
I'm too cranky to go but I will watch it on the Television -my kids are going however .
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Karl Rove has leaked his electoral map for tomorrow. He predicts an overwhelming victory for.......
http://www.rove.com/uploads/0000/0051/McCain-Obama_11_3_08_FINAL.pdf
And it is not for who you might think!
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To: 390. At 00:56am on 04 Nov 2008, chronophobe
As a person who never thought that they would see a person of color have a serious chance at being elected POTUS in their lifetime (I am only 41) you have so eloquently expressed my thoughts.
It just so happens that tomorrow is my daughter's 2nd birthday. I am going to document that day for her for years to come. I can only say that (and believe it or not, crying as I write this) I pray for my childrens' sake that they are alive to see this day.
My 14 year old son can now believe that anything is possible if he educates himself and strives, that anything is possible.
This is the kind of HOPE that Obama inspires in people.
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Be very afraid!
A lucky escape I reckon
;-)
ed
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Dear Justin,
You've mentioned vets and McCain shedding tears and said nothing compares to this even amongst Obama supporters.
This may prove you wrong:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/03/tears-for-obama-photos_n_140582.html
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404. StephenDerry
And there are the conservatives who SHOUT at us, and the liberals who don't.
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Ed@364,
Thanks. Thought-provoking indeed, though it would take a lot of research to determine which of these quotes were reliably attested - preferably recorded on tape.
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At 04:13am on 03 Nov 2008, redagas and then reply by: 70. At 09:37am on 03 Nov 2008, british-ish
Please, please, please.... In the words of Rodney King, "Can we all just get along?"!
It is true that the Bush administration has put a blight on the "American brand". But there is hope for all of us the world over.
I know I place a lot on Obama's shoulder's, but I think he realizes this and is willing to "shoulder the responsibility", we as Americans, have to the world.
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I'm off to bed (02.10 here). To all sane Americans, good luck, and don't let the Rethuglicans cheat you again!
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At 01:54am on 04 Nov 2008, smileytm303
Please see #409
nough said!
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361. At 11:37pm on 03 Nov 2008, TimothyR444 wrote:
Thank you redagast for this succulent slice of anti-Americanism at it most flamboyant and extreme.
It's impossible to fight this sort of fanaticism and bigotry. Where does one start?
**********************************
My pleasure Timothy, my post #58 might clarify my position a little more if you please.
I enjoy a succulent slice of anti-americanism with a flamboyant ant extreme twist.
As for bigotry, A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own, and bigotry is the corresponding state of mind. Bigot is often used as a pejorative term against a person who is obstinately devoted to prejudices even when these views are challenged or proven to be false or not universally applicable or acceptable.
As far as I can tell, and it is only my opinion (see no bigot) that I my views are shared in varying degrees by the majority of bloggers in here.
And I am from the the land of Oz where the tolerance of American culture is very high.
So my ranting comes from the more tolerant side of what you term anti-americanism.
And a poll released this morning says the following about which way my fellow country men would vote given the opportunity, (which of course we have no right to) but anyways,
McCain 11%
Obama 89%
A lot of others (not all) can see that McCain and Palin are Bombs Away candidates, which is why some of us write on these blogs to try and make people like you aware of the ill-feelings towards America that these type of politicians and their policies foster.
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404 Stephen:
I will think on this further but right now it is time to sleep . Am staying up tomorrow to follow what I think is going to be an historic night.
To all of you good night, and happy voting.
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#397. SamTyler1969: "I recant. It is a grande anee."
Why not push the boat out and splurge on a 1990 Louis Roederer Cristal Rose - same vintage and it's 'in the pink', as we should all be if things as hoped! But don't pop that cork until you're sure of the result, it would be such a waste of either bottle.
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SamTyler1969 (#397), it's Presidente brandy for me.
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391/bluepaddy
"I am attaking what he is PROMISING, he promised to roll back the Bush tax CUTS"
He is promising not to increase the taxes of 95% of American families and any small business making under $250,000.
Read his website.
"That is just plain dumb not worth a reply."
You are making things up, and attacking a position which does not exist, one for which there is no evidence. How come you get so upset when I do the same?
The difference is, I'm mocking you. You actually believe your own lie.
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aquarigal, take care. No more falling off ladders!
David_C, now that you have brought up Nostradamus,
I feel compelled, as the only Illuminati on duty at
this late hour, to make my predictions.
Now, please listen carefully. A tripwire has
been stretched across the finish line for Obama,
and it has been composed from his own words.
At a decisive point in the battle, a blue state will
flip to red, and cause Obama's defeat.
All of the pundits are wrong. This will be the closest
election in American history.
And, if I am wrong, I shall be silent for at least a day.
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First of all the idea of soft imperialism, like all imperialisms is by no means a priori a bad or good thing. There are necessarliy bad and good aspects, depending on your point of view. It does seem that if one seeks to expand or maintain one's influence, the soft power of the sun is more palatable to others than the hard power of the cold north wind.
Second of all, the idea that the USA is not an imperial state, however one defines imperial, simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny. In its Leninist sense, the USA is precisely what Lenin was writing about. In a military/political sense, ask yourself these simple questions: Other than the original 13 (of 15) colonies that formed the union, how many states have joined as a result of the free democratic choice of their populations? How many were annexed (or purchased), and how many were subjugated, including those that once decided their interests would be best served outside the union? An alternative monicker for the United States of America could have been "The Washingtonian Empire" in other political times.
Then consider the coercion the US exerts over its 'allies' to serve its own interests when deemed necessary, its military interventions and installation of puppet governments (including its creation of an anti-communist de facto one-party state in Japan, where I currently reside) and overt colonialist adventures. That US imperialism does not appear in exactly the same guise as previous Empires does not negate the facts.
As stated earlier, this is not necessarily a good or a bad thing. As a non-American I would rather live under (even Bush's) American Imperium than any of the currently feasible alternatives. Niall Ferguson's defence of the British Empire (Empire) asks a pertinant if academic question: if not the British, then whom? The alternative was not (and is not today vis a vis the US) an ideal world of peaceful democratic self-determining independent states, or a free world of voluntary associations.
Finally, on a different point of American mythology, the Puritan "Christians" who left England for Holland and then the New World were only persecuted after they refused to accept the religious-political settlements that, following the Puritan rule of Oliver Cromwell, the English and other Europeans were slowly struggling to achieve. They were seen as the 17th century Christian equivalents of today's Taleban, quite correctly as it turned out when one views the type of theocracies they proceeded to try and establish in their colonies. If you consider them to have been persecuted in England, then ask yourself what their disenfranchisement under the separation of state and religion written into the constitution would have amounted to in the eyes of the original Pilgrim Fathers.
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419. At 02:22am on 04 Nov 2008, David_Cunard wrote:
#397. SamTyler1969: "I recant. It is a grande anee."
Why not push the boat out and splurge on a 1990 Louis Roederer Cristal Rose - same vintage and it's 'in the pink', as we should all be if things as hoped! But don't pop that cork until you're sure of the result, it would be such a waste of either bottle.
Lay off you two, will you? I'll have trouble affording a bottle of Asti. How about a bit of champagne redistribution?
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163. At 2:30pm on 03 Nov 2008, SamTyler1969 wrote:
#123
Magic,
They also say McCain the only reason to vote McCain is if you assume he is completely misrepresenting himself on the trail and will go back to being the old McCain. Because everything he has done on the campaign has been awful.
Just for completeness,
Sam
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So true so true...
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#409 millie2640 good post.
If Obama wins tommorow it proves to 10s of millions of americans that even if their name isnt George, Joe ,JOhn or any other 'traditional' american name, and although they are not white, they can one day be taken seriously and accepted if one day they decide to run for President of the United States. There is no limit to what they can acheive.
There is still many that wont be convinced of this until the votes are actually counted however, and that glass ceiling is actually shattered.
This election has seen the emergence of Hillary Clinton, Sarah Palin(as V.P) and Barack Obama receive wide support for the nations top jobs.
Many americans live with the perception that because they are not a white male they are limited, this election year, though negative at times has been a historic and inspirational year in american politics.
god bless and best wishes to both candidates tommorow.
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To: SamTyler1969
I think I am in L-O-V-E!!!! Not as tall as Michelle, but cute!!!! You are the thinking womans' man!!!! nuf said!!!! Oh yeah, can I be a squrrill ( spelling?)
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#422 gunsandreligion
"And, if I am wrong, I shall be silent for at least a day."
Is that one of our days, or one of the original "7 days" in Genesis?
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Nick-no-gots, if you were a halfwit, you'd have half a wit more than you have now.
Brits like to boast that they abolished slavery long before America. But what they don't tell you is that America didn't abolish it all at once. Some parts of America abolished slavery long before Britain ever did. And when the did abolish it, they continued for decades kidnapping Africans and selling them as slaves. And guess who they sold them to. That is one aspect of a real empire, the British Empire for one, that they don't talk about, the hundreds of millions they enslaved for centuries everywhere they went. And it didn't end until the mid twentieth century. Let's not forget India. Remarkable how forgiving the Indians are to the British. And all they have to show for what they endured is cricket.
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