Morphing America?
I have been talking to Francis Fukuyama - he of "end of history" fame - about whether or not America is really morphing into Europe...
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He wilfully avoids answering Justin Webb's question about social conservatism.
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Remind me or maybe remind yourself
A year ago Justin Webb made a prediction about who will be the next president of USA?
Justin Webb's answer> John McCain
(Also agreed by Ewan Davis)
Maybe time to agree that BBC reporters know very little about the subjects they claim to be experts in.
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Justin.
No. We have guns.
Gunner Sam
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I think one of the biggest differences between US and European (and Canadian and Japanese) political cultures is that in the US the working classes tend vote conservative while in the other western democracies they make up the backbone of the left-wing parties.
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I don't think you can define Europe as a whole any more than you can define a state in the country by one group.
there is the entrepeneurial Europe of Ireland
The Europe that has reputable leaders again in France, Germany and Italy
The appeasment Europe of Spain etc.
Obama has not been sworn in yet.
But that John Kerry is being considered for a major cabinet post is scary
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Much more likely is that Europe is morphing into America. The potential for a "United States of Europe" with its pastiche of the US Consitution, the acceptance of American culture - dress, spelling, cooking, television and so much more - points to the Americanisation of Europe rather than vice-versa.
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Obama's socialist politics are more in line with a Scandinavian than an American.
It will be interesting to see how many of his campaign promises will fall by the way side.
I think he's fed some great sound bites - to get elected. But that is all.
The nationalization of healthcare alone will cost $250bn and It's just not going to happen in a recession. The honeymoon will last 6 months.
European countries be afraid, because Americas spending power will be much less when we're heavily taxed. No more Jaguars or Volvos or IKEA for us.
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A very good comment about the difference between the United States and Europe was made by a Frenchman in Michael Moore's film "Sicko". He said something like: "In Europe the government is afraid of the people while in America the people are afraid of the government".
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It all goes back to "life, liberty, and the pursuit" vs
"fairness." I just made a rather dark post on my blog
(O.K., I was depressed until I realized that the
Republicans have probably not lost the Senate.)
You can get to my blog by googling for
"theamericandreamagain". Or, you can just
go to the pravda site, which the mods will
let me post, but not my site.
And, Sam, they really don't have guns in Europe?
Perhaps they just call them something else?
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2/webdeepak: that's a bit harsh!
You could say that the entire Republican party know nothing about politics because they were making the same prediction up until last night!
For Justin and Ewan to make the prediction a year ago before McCain had even won a primary, and when Hilary Clinton was the obvious choice reflects well on them, after all McCain got a lot closer than Clinton, Romney, Huckabee, Edwards, and even a lot closer than most of the pollsters anticipated.
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#7. Volvo is owned by Ford. Just saying.
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I thought his characterisation of Europeans as looking to their government for help was inaccurate, but fairly typical of the American right's prejudices.
Interesting guy, though, since he tends to get toted these days as proof that neocons can in fact be reconstituted into human beings, so it's nice to try to assess the evidence for oneself. But I'm not going to go to him for an understanding of Europe anytime soon.
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Hey Magic/Dame_Maggie_Thatcher:
don't spoil the euphoria. We have at least 4 years of criticism to go.
That we are seeing an extremely lackluster senator and former Clinton {your word here} for cabinet positions, is a bit of a downer. It seems the political favors are getting collected early.
It is ironic we will buy fewer Volvo's, since it seemed every one had an Obama bumper sticker.
I will miss Palin. She was the only one who knew how to field dress an opponent. Still, she spent less on her clothes than John Edwards on his loins.
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To #5 MagicKirin. Are you certified mad or did I miss the hidden sarcasm? Entrepreneurial Ireland - is this the "thanks for all the money Europe" Ireland you're talking about eh?
The leader of France is Sarkozy (whose sham marriage helped him in) and Italy has Berlusconi the TV and media magnate. What is reputable about them then?
Appeasement Spain. Trying to end conflict rationally, peacefully and painlessly type appeasement or did you mean chicken scared give in to terrorist type appeasement Spain. Thought so.
John Kerry - why is he scary? Do you hear voices when you're alone?
Welcome to the New World - Join us.
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Shouldn't this come with the headline:
Two great minds meet to discuss how they got their predictions wrong.
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Deeply unimpressive. (Mind you, I didn't think much of the 'End of History' thesis either.)
Any of my Profs would have marked this C- -. (Actually, so would my Sixth Year history teacher, I think.)
Got his degree from the same place as the Iranian Interior Minister, I wouldn't be surprised.
(Sorry, I know that was mean, but I was really looking forward to that, and I was very disappointed.)
It shows the folly of lumping 'Europe' together. Much of the 'working classes' involvement with movements for social progress in England came out of the Industrial Revolution and, particularly, Methodism in the industrial north, but that didn't seem to translate through immigration into the US.
In much of Europe, many emigrants were escaping the revolutions of 1848 or there aftermath, which had a rather different effect on ideas of social reform.
(But I don't want to bore you.)
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5 MagicKirin wrote:
The Europe that has reputable leaders again in France, Germany and Italy
_________________
Ignoring the rest of your rant, if you consider Berlusconi (Italy) "reputable", that speaks volumes about your judgement.
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rastafairy5 wrote:
To #5 MagicKirin. Are you certified mad or did I miss the hidden sarcasm? Entrepreneurial Ireland - is this the "thanks for all the money Europe" Ireland you're talking about eh?
The leader of France is Sarkozy (whose sham marriage helped him in) and Italy has Berlusconi the TV and media magnate. What is reputable about them then?
Appeasement Spain. Trying to end conflict rationally, peacefully and painlessly type appeasement or did you mean chicken scared give in to terrorist type appeasement Spain. Thought so.
John Kerry - why is he scary? Do you hear voices when you're alone?
Welcome to the New World - Join us.
Yes the Celtic Tiger
I'll take Sarkozy over Chirac who has the blood of Iraqis and others on his hands.
Yes Zapatero who was more concerning with appeasing terrorists than honoring his nations commitments.
John Kerry has been useless in 20+ years in the Senate. His major accomplishment after coming back from Vietnam : Marrying two Rich woman
I see you have to resort to name calling. I don't want to be part of a new world that appeases terrorists and dosen't reward hard work.
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5. MagicKirin wrote:
"The Europe that has reputable leaders again in France, Germany and Italy"
I just caught sight of that, and I really can't let that one go. Berlusconi? Reputable?
Hilarious. Tell that one to
Fukuyama.
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"The nationalization of healthcare alone will cost $250bn and It's just not going to happen in a recession. The honeymoon will last 6 months."
I am amused. Really? Only $250 billion? Our sitting president just committed $700 billion to shore up some banks and their debts, which are really nothing more than numbers on pieces of paper. While in a recession. With two expensive wars going.
Surely flesh and blood humans and their continued health are worth, um, a third of that....
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5. At 9:31pm on 05 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
"I don't think you can define Europe as a whole any more than you can define a state in the country by one group.
there is the entrepeneurial Europe of Ireland
The Europe that has reputable leaders again in France, Germany and Italy"
Do explain how Berlusconi is 'reputable', and more reputable than his predecessor
Or by reputable did you mean 'right wing'?
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#16 british-ish
"Sixth Year history teacher"
Should I assume that you were educated in Scotland?
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Hi Neil_a2
Yes, I'll miss Palin in her hot leather dress too. I hope the petals don't drop off before she's back in 2012.
We had Eliot Spitzer here in NY, (The Sheriff of Wall Street) who used to spend more than John Edwards, I think.
Right, I'm off to CNN to watch clips of Jesse Jackson crying....Jeeeez get over it, already!
(This guy could have been purple, and he still would have won.)
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Re: Uriel at #20
Yeah, but where is the profit in opening some hospitals?.....this is still America afteralll!
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SpeleoKarst wrote:
5 MagicKirin wrote:
The Europe that has reputable leaders again in France, Germany and Italy
_________________
Ignoring the rest of your rant, if you consider Berlusconi (Italy) "reputable", that speaks volumes about your judgement.
A good friend to the U.S and far better on the economy than Prodi
Now just get rid of Zapatero in spain
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Francis Fukuyama was entirely wrong about "the end of history".
Why should he be considered an expert on the US?
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What I see is world wide a oppressed humanity if the individual is not into the major action that dominates society.
At the present in the USA the military is the only occupation that can provide for the majority of the ordinary public a opportunity to pull ones self up and establish a home and family. Only that geared for instituting a physical and controlling force withdrawing from the public of the general populous whether within ones own country or within another country the authority above the public individual under a governments decrees.
What I am talking about are the enforcers of a pure fascist police state without democracy. A patriotic propaganda fed society that instills a trained public and satisfies their Id by living in the illusions of meanings but without any substance.
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...whether or not America is really morphing into Europe...
Well, no. The U.S. is not morphing into Europe, anymore than China or India.
Similarities aside, they are two different places, two different cultures.
Recent history aside, the U.S. is far more homogenous than Europe. Take places on opposite sides of each continent. The differences between Florida and, say, Oregon, are considerably fewer than the differences between Bulgaria and, say, Scotland. Every American has much more in common with every Canadian than anyone in Europe.
That said, the U.S. is slowly, but inevitably, moving toward broader acceptance of the reality that political freedom rests on economic capability. We in the U.S. will move toward universal health care and other ventures that boost taxes and the role of government in our lives.
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ref #21
I mean more reputable in that they will help carry the responsbility for peace keeping and aid. Instead of relying just on the U.S, U.K and others.
Spain aren't you ashamed to have a leader who is a coward?
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No, we are not morphing into Europe. We have merely become more international in our outlook.
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We observe today not a victory of a party but celebration of an historic moment and giant leap that has united the Americans more than ever, will inspire many in the world in many years to come, and has instilled both a sense of belonging to many Americans and hope in the rest of the world. It is the only election victory in one nation that has captivated the attention of the mankind and ignited unprecedented jubilation across the world.
This is simply because the world?s perception about Barack Obama is that he will draw from the following convictions:
?...My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man...? Excerpt from the Inaugural Address of President John F. Kennedy
?...Not in this land alone, But be God's mercies known, From shore to shore! Lord make the nations see, That men should brothers be, And form one family, The wide world over...? Excerpt from the British National Anthem.
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#27
Now I have been drinking ALL day (God bless Europe), but What?
I mean, What?
Confused Sam
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Magic,
Spain won't answer. She's been a bit of a recluse since the 16th Century. You'll have to ask Germany.
Practical Sam
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#27 Lee Roy
If I understand you correctly you intimate that the majority of Americans rely on the military in one form or another for their daily bread . Surely that engenders an attitude of ' the military run the country ' . The world has more than its fair share of despots who rely on the military to keep them in power , those who rely on that military to keep bread on the table will endorse any action by the commanders in chief to keep their families fed and a roof over their head .
At the end of the cold war Russia found it just could not support the massive military spending needed to keep up. Now perhaps under 'W' America has discovered the same fact of life.
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#29. MagicKirin: "Spain aren't you ashamed to have a leader who is a coward?"
Why do you ask that - because Zapatero supported John Kerry or that he withdrew Spanish troops from Iraq? Elucidate please.
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The only way the USA and the EU could become socially similar is if the EU embraces Christianity as its most fundamental value, opposes abortion and gay marriage, accepts the death penalty, accepts the idea of an infallible Israel, and decides that every citizen has the right to own a collection of semi-automatic weapons to defend themselves against real or perceived enemies or shoot Bambi.
Don't confuse the election of a Centrist, and highly qualified and charismatic leader, with abandonment of our most cherished values and rights. The USA remains a nation that leans conservative on social issues and it will be a very long time indeed before that changes. The change we are looking for is limited to fiscal, economic, and foreign policy matters, not social.
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Change at the margins, that's what the interviewee said. I can live with that. In America, many people who are middle class or even poor have dreams of one day becoming rich. Overlooked beacuse of the preoccupation with race is the fact that Obama himself started out poor and became rich. That is why Americans don't want to tax their way into economic leveling. Americans don't resent people who are rich the way Europeans do, especially if they earned their own way in life through honest efforts. They instead want to emulate them. And many have. BBC reported that the chances for upward mobility in Europe were as great as in America. I don't believe it for one second.
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#27, I don't get the gist of what you are trying to
say either, and I'm just now starting my effort to catch
up to Sam.
It's not going to be easy, though. I'm sure that
whatever I'm drinking is low octane compared
to whatever Sam is used to.
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Actually another difference is flags. Even mainstream Europeans left-wingers seem to hate flags or even the concept of the nation-state. Their counterparts in the US still try to put on a patriotic show.
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As sovereign nations go the United States is not very old. We are in many ways the equivalent of a teenager on the world stage. We are not only young, but incredibly powerful financially and militarily. Like all teenagers attempting to find their place in the world we test our limits and have a sense of invulnerability. The U.S. is facing issues now that other nations have been facing for decades. The constant threat of terrorism has been part of the daily life of many European nations for a very long time. The acts of 9/11 however shook us to our core because our young nation has never faced such a threat on our soil.
Perhaps, after we have experienced all of our growing pains we will resemble more of a European nation. Only time will tell what kind of nation the U.S. grows into.
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Why should it morph in Europe? That is the Imperial design of European Nations. They still consider two greatest Democracies, India and USA as colonies even today in 2008. USA will become USA. United States of Europe is alrady a doomed proposal. Any well wisher of USA should want it to be and remain USA.
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It is true Europe is morphing into America in many ways. But Obama represents a shift in America as well. Obama's orientation towards listening to both sides and finding the compromise represents a huge shift from the adversarial, and partisan towards the middle ground - and yes I know the US 'middle' tends to be to the right of the European middle. The economic shift that is happening in America reminds me of the UK in my childhood - manufacturing declining - steel production failing to compete with (ironically) the US. The UK had to let go of its individual sovereignty to some extent to increasingly merge with Europe. I wonder if the US will go a similar way. The British were not enthusiastic about EFTA, EEC or EU either, but the economic and political necessity pulled them along. North American Union - it is an idea.
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#33 SamTyler1969
Yeah Castille is rather self-obsessed, but I think you'll find Catalonia and Galicia much more willing to talk to the rest of the world.
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BTW I will be quitting my job the afternoon Obama is sworn in and going on welfare. And I have expensive tastes! ;)
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The last time there was a succesful conservative government in the UK it was precisely because the working class voted en mass for them. It was the Sun wot won it...maybe the UK differs from the rest of Europe in this respect, I don't know their demographics.
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The election of Barack Obama is an indicator of change, not an agent of change itself. America is in a perpetual state of change. This time is no different. If not Obama, then someone else would have been there to do whatever it is Obama is about to do. Out of the frying pan and into the fire is change too. That may be where we are headed. Will he use the Tony Blair gambit to blame all of America's problems on "the party opposite?" Blair sang that song for ten years. I don't think it will fly for very long here. That kind of thing wears thin quickly.
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No. Europe and America are not morphing. Remember the confederate states? Much more emphysis is put on individual responsiblity here than in Europe. And by that I mean, people in America are always quick to blame someone's hardships as all their own and not societies problem (even though it is). That person must have done something to get them in the good or bad position they are in. In Europe as I understand it (since I am not a European citizen correct me if I am wrong) they take into account outside factors that can affect an individual as well as the individual themselves. This is why they have more social programs than we do here in America. This is the reason we don't have health care across the board, because people here think if you are sick that is your problem. There are stark contrasts.
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44. At 00:40am on 06 Nov 2008, Agent00Soul wrote:
"BTW I will be quitting my job the afternoon Obama is sworn in and going on welfare. And I have expensive tastes! ;)"
Wrong party! Why don't you join the RNC, maybe they will take you on a shoping spree and Nieman and Marcus. Or, maybe you could move to Alaska with Sarah Palin and take those windfall profits that, that "Republican" state dishes out each year to make their citizens forget about how oil companies are ruining their beautiful state. Maybe you could do that instead.
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#44 Agent00Soul
"BTW I will be quitting my job the afternoon Obama is sworn in and going on welfare. And I have expensive tastes! ;)"
Why on earth would Obama go on welfare after he is sworn in?
Has America decided to stop giving the President a salary? - seems a bit cruel, since the girls won't get their puppy.
What are your expensive tastes to do with anything? - unless the Police Department needs to investigate them.
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#32. SamTyler1969: Ref #27 Now I have been drinking ALL day (God bless Europe), but What? I mean, What?"
When your head stops spinning, these may tell you. Take your pick, they're all as (no mod-proof verb available) as each other.
#38.gunsandreligion: "#27, I don't get the gist of what you are trying to say either."
See above!
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History always repeats itself. The modern Rebublican party in the U.S. has only won by nominating a candidate from California or Texas. Richard Nixon twice, Ronald Reagan twice and the three Bush terms. These two states, with their massive influence on the U.S. population can and have rapeatedly swung elections to their favorite sons. If the Repubulican party had simply followed this time tested formula they would have won this election.
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David, I like that your in your link in #50, one of his offerings in on the evil of alcohol. Perhaps Sam should have read it before he started his day.
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What is America?
Or Should I say, what is America made of?
Take everyone that the rich/rulers of Europe didn't want, add in all the people that wanted out of Europe, plus all the rich kids that were too much trouble for their families and then give them a whole new continent to play with. Wait a few years until you realise that there is a lot of money to be made out of this new land and tax it as much as you can until they say enough is enough. Oh, big surprise, they want to get back at you and rule the world.
I've been all over the world, one way and another, and the majority of the people that I have met just want to get on with their daily life.
The problem with The United States is that the majority do just that; get on with their daily lives; the farmers out in the country just want to do a fair days work; and so do the tradesmen and the workers. They just do not have the time or the energy to try to understand "Foreign Policy" nor have they been encouraged to.
To talk about the Europeanisation of America is ridiculous. The expanded European families that created "America" are still reaping the profits.
The rich and famous hop back and forth across the water to Europe whenever they want and as long as the majority of americans do not have a passport, nor even see the need for one, we here in Europe will be beating a silent drum.
America is an island nation, a very big one, but an island nation at heart.
On the other hand, New England in the Fall or the vast Mid West, riding a Silver Eagle through the desert watching the sun come up over the cactuses (OK it's cacti but it doesn't fit so well) with a tequila in your hand and geting paid to do it; Can't complain.
At the bottom of it all..... We the people pay our taxes and the taxes pay the politicians so shouldn't the politicians be doing what we tell them rather than doing what the rich buiseness men, who don't pay taxes, tell them to do.
Why should we bow down to the Prime Minister/President and step aside to let him through when he is our employee our spokesperson NOT our ruler.
Right; that's enough I'm off for a glass of wine and an early start to sort out the sheep and horses.
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#51 mainman1006
"History always repeats itself."
This is probably the most inane aphorism ever.
History is the study of unique events.
When are you predicting that the Native American population will be subjected to genocide, or that the UK will have an Empire, or that Neanderthal man will be the dominant species in the Middle East? (OK you may have a point that last one).
(Apologies to any Neanderthals out there, I know you aren't Republicans).
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I think that the U.S. and Europe are a lot like a couple in a long-term marriage. We bicker a lot, but are dependent on each other, and as time goes on, we begin to resemble each other more and more.
Or is it pets and their owners? I always get that one confused...
Anyway, sometimes we can't stand each other, sometimes we just want to walk away- but somehow we both keep coming back, because we've grown to need each other. Perhaps it's shared values, deeper than the divisions.
We promise to keep the toilet seat down if you promise to squeeze the toothpaste tube from the bottom...
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54. oldnat:
I think you might apologise to quite a large proportion of the population in the Middle East, too.
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#51
"History always repeats itself."
===================
Only when it's over.
Sorry, I couldn't help that.
Yours,
The owl of Minerva
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Ref 29
"Spain aren't you ashamed to have a leader who is a coward?"
Judging by what my relatives have been telling me, they are very proud of having a leader who opposes dropping bombs and launching missiles against innocent people who lack the ability to defend themselves. They are also proud of a leader who respects other cultures and the right of other people to choose their own destiny.
Tell me, do you admire Adolf Hitler for his "valiant" behavior, and consider Ronald Reagan a coward for withdrawing US troops from Lebanon after the attack on the Marine barracks when he concluded - correctly - that the conflicts in the Middle East were not ours to mend?
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50. David_Cunard wrote:
"When your head stops spinning, these may tell you. Take your pick, they're all as (no mod-proof verb available) as each other."
I see. I now understand that totally mindblowing piece. (Sort of.) I thought it was acid that did that, though? (Mostly.)
Wouldn't take a trip to (or in, for that matter) Amsterdam, Sam. . .
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#37
"BBC reported that the chances for upward mobility in Europe were as great as in America. I don't believe it for one second."
========================
MAII,
You may be at least partially correct.
This from the London School of Economics website (I'd put in the link but I'm embarrassed to say I don't know how!):
"A careful comparison reveals that the USA and Britain are at the bottom with the lowest social mobility. Norway has the greatest social mobility, followed by Denmark, Sweden and Finland. Germany is around the middle of the two extremes, and Canada was found to be much more mobile than the UK."
Yours,
An upwardly mobile Canadian Pinko
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#56 british-ish
True. Apologies offered,
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Actually, maybe a marriage isn't the best metaphor, unless it's some weird group thing.
Shared democratic values and interconnectedness of trade, environmental issues, etc. seem to be pulling much of the world together. Instead of a "North American Union" and an EU, we might just be drifting toward some sort of loosely confederated (gulp) global economic union.
I hesitated to say this before, because One World Govt. really fires up the black helicopter crowd...
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57. chronophobe wrote:
#51
"History always repeats itself."
Or when it's indigestible?
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#60, chronophobe, since scum floats to the top,
I'm headed north!
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One of the fundamental difference between the USA and Europe is that cultures of Europe are established and they are complex. On the other hand, the American culture is one that is not established and it is always changing. It is definitely not complex. Therefore the people do not have a set value system. Thats why a country that elected Bush 8 years ago can simply turnaround and elect Obama today. USA was built on this culture of the unsettled immigrant, who simply wanting to get away from the generationally ingrained attitudes of the country that he has come from. Every immigrant who came to the US has done this. Thats why the working class in the US vote for conservatives while the European working class vote liberals.
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63. british-ish
#51
"History always repeats itself."
Or when it's indigestible?
I think the exact quote: "those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it."
-George W. Bush
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62. Via-Media
Quite, I look at the screen names and time stamps to make sure I'm not going to be told I'm deaf because I don't hear any black helicopters* overhead . . . .
It will be interesting to see what comes of the 15th of November meeting won't it? The rest of the world (though China admittedly is having to be dragged along a bit) have a blueprint for better global financial structures. (Or at least agree we need them.)
Next, global warming? More rational trade agreements? The ICC . . .(All the co-operative things that Europe at least is trying to get together on with the rest of the world and the Bush regime has kept walking away from.)
*Why black, anyway? Don't they know UN vehicles are white?
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#63
"Or when it's indigestible?"
====================
True, but only if you mean like this:
"Ouroboros is an ancient alchemy symbol depicting a snake or dragon swallowing its own tail, constantly creating itself and forming a circle. . . .
Ouroboros is associated with Alchemy, Gnosticism and Hermeticism. It represents the cyclical nature of things, eternal return, and other things perceived as cycles that begin anew as soon as they end."
Sorry again.
The end of history just brings out the beast in me!
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67. british-ish
Black helicopters? I don't know- someone watched too many special forces movies? Maybe better to sneak around in the dark; those helicopters are very very quiet at night...
Good advice about checking who's posting. Kinda like looking both ways before crossing the street.
The best I can see coming from Nov. 15 is a delayed decision- Bush seems to have gone into a take-no-prisoners, strip-down-the-appartment-before-we're-evicted mode, so hardly in the mood to negotiate. Ramrodding environmental and other rules changes through w.out congressional consent before you leave is hardly a sign of willingness to discuss...
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#64 gunsandreligion:
#60, chronophobe, since scum floats to the top,
I'm headed north!
========================
Hey, come on up. We don't mind a little more scum.
We are pretty cool with religion (our PM is an evangelical Christian), but the guns just won't clear customs.
Sorry.
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#51. mainman1006: "History always repeats itself."
You're thinking of fashion - that always repeats itself. But I don't think we're headed for another Revolutionary or Civil War - that would be history repeating itself.
#62. Via-Media: "Actually, maybe a marriage isn't the best metaphor, unless it's some weird group thing."
Be careful, you may excite Sam too much.
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#62, Via-Media, perhaps you meant something
like this.
Probably just George Soros showing off again...
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I've a suggestion whereby President Obama might rejuvenate the American economy AND boost the average intelligence of Americans in one fell swoop.
Bearing in mind that the Russian economy is in such good shape thanks in part to W's invasion of iraq, how about selling Alaska to the Russkies?
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#72 Guns and religion
I think you just spotted Oliver North's latest Vietnam flick in progress- I don't think anyone else flies Hueys any more.
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#73
"Bearing in mind that the Russian economy is in such good shape thanks in part to W's invasion of iraq, how about selling Alaska to the Russkies?"
=====================
The Russians could never get the right deal with Bush.
He wants waaay too many beads. Especially the red ones.
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One last (unrelated) post before bed, for those cynics who still believe that their vote doesn't matter.
My wife (who is away for work) and I just read the election results for our NW PA county. Last I checked, it was won by McCain, as I predicted- but by all of two (2!) votes.
My wife voted by absentee ballot, which hasn't been counted yet in the totals, so if one or two others were also away...
And our highly Republican congressional district just jettisoned our smarmy Republican congressman of 16 years, by a 4% margin. Finally. He very easily have had a WWGD (What Would George Do?) tattoo.
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#70, chronophobe, this would be very hard for me.
I could perhaps change my moniker to
"boomerangandreligion" or "atlatlandreligion",
so long as I have something to bitterly cling to.
And, just in case you always wanted a stainless
steel blowgun, I suggest that you peruse
this site.
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british-ish and Ed:
I sympathize about your squirrel plight, but don't quite get the attraction. Or are your red squirrels of different temperament than ours? The American species is actually very vicious and aggressive, and one of the biggest predators of birds' nests.
Is there a lesson hidden in there somewhere?
I prefer our elusive flying squirrels- acquaintance in school had one as a pet for a few months. Used to throw it across the room at people. Odd sense of humor, but the squirrel was cool.
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Drat. Sorry, last sentence on #76 should have read, "He very easily could have had..." :(
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53. At 01:57am on 06 Nov 2008, Gelvan-Tullibole-3 wrote:
"They just do not have the time or the energy to try to understand "Foreign Policy" nor have they been encouraged to.
To talk about the Europeanisation of America is ridiculous. The expanded European families that created "America" are still reaping the profits".
Weird, a European who is snobby and claims to know all 300,000 million Americans; w e i r d. Look, us U.S. born folk can make sweeping generalization also. Perhaps you haven't met the younger generation of Americans? You can have our celebrities, we don't need them. What about Posh and Becks? They aren't American, but they are sure into themselves. Bet they don't know much about foreign policy.
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On a seperate note that's way off topic, I see that Ted Stevens was relected???? What the hell? From the same state that brought us Sarah moose killin, helicopter shootin Palin. Plus he is like 840 years old.
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#77 brassknucklesandreligion
And, just in case you always wanted a stainless
steel blowgun, I suggest that you peruse
this site.
===================
Oh man, that is hilarious. You've made my day!
Yours,
A Canadian Pinko, rolling on the floor and laughing my etc., etc.
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The US and Europe are as far apart as it is possible to be, and getting further apart. The gulf between us is enormous - this blog is simply an ilustration of that.
The comments by Fukuyama are merely trendy nonsense. The election of one left-wing president does not mean we are moving towards Europe.
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78. Via-Media wrote:
british-ish and Ed:
"I sympathize about your squirrel plight, but don't quite get the attraction. Or are your red squirrels of different temperament than ours?"
Apparently. (Ed's the expert; he posted links way back when the squirrel thing started -- including one to a pic of a very attractive one called 'Obama' whose name we cautiously circumvented for obvious reasons at the time --but I haven't got the energy to look for them now. Ah. Idea: how about a 'Blog entry search', Beeb Interactive?)
Funny really, because our greys are quite tame. They take nuts from kids' hands in Hyde Park all the time. Never heard of one turning nasty. They just look peeved when the nuts aren't the best quality, that's all. They're very spoilt.
The aggressive ones in the US are a different species, I gather, so I don't think we can claim that our 'European' values have 'socialised' or, as some would have it -- Fukuyama before he reneged -- tamed or emasculated them . . .)
Funny, the way it kind of spread! It began just as a way of ridiculing something DMT wrote.
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82. chronophobe wrote:
"#77 brassknucklesandreligion
And, just in case you always wanted a stainless steel blowgun, I suggest that you peruse
this site."
'Primitive'. Yes. Good word . . .Why does it somehow remind me of Lord of the Flies?
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83. At 04:01am on 06 Nov 2008, TimothyR444 wrote:
The US and Europe are as far apart as it is possible to be, and getting further apart. The gulf between us is enormous - this blog is simply an ilustration of that.
The comments by Fukuyama are merely trendy nonsense. The election of one left-wing president does not mean we are moving towards Europe.
They aren't even trendy. And I agree with you. In a way. Demographically, the US is moving much closer to Spain. Via Latin America . . .
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/population/012496.html
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Timothy R444 - you seem to like the concept of division and the " good vrs evil" mentality of the Bush admin. Us and them....? Obama will look into the shades of grey as he is a realist. Peace and love not hate and war my friend.... open your mind it is the progressive way
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"They aren't even trendy. And I agree with you. In a way. Demographically, the US is moving much closer to Spain. Via Latin America . . ."
Yes - and Europe is moving much closer to Islam.
One of the most intriguing and disturbing aspects of this blog is the extraordinary hostilty to Christianity, expressed in the crudest and most insulting terms.
On the other hand, Islam is celebrated and supported. It would be unimaginable for anyone here to say anything critical about Islam. The irony, of course, is that this is coming from those who claim to be open-minded and stuffed with love.
Europeans are rapidly moving away from roots in the ancient Christian civilization that once existed in Europe and are embracing Islam - not as a religion, but as a culture. This is another enormous difference between the US and Europe, and certainly helps explain so much of the deep anti-Americanism that is so popular in Europe.
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netcrusher
" you seem to like the concept of division and the " good vrs evil" mentality of the Bush admin. Us and them....? Obama will look into the shades of grey as he is a realist. Peace and love not hate and war my friend.... open your mind it is the progressive way"
*chuckle*
Peace and love - you sound like an unreconstructed hippie.
Relatavism is always a disaster. Underneath all that syrupy "love" is intolerance and arrogance. Self-proclaimed progressives are the least tolerant people I know; no one is allowed to question or disagree. Otherwise, they are accused of not being filled with peace and love.
Rubbish.
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#87, NETCRUSHER, Obama has yet to win me over.
His apparent choice of chief of staff is not very
encouraging.
Sort of like the B grade sci-fi movie promo which
read: "We come in peace." But, they left in pieces.
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TimothyR444 (#83) wrote: "The US and Europe are as far apart as it is possible to be, and getting further apart."
Maybe my grasp of elementary logic is up the spout today, but if they really are "as far apart as it is possible to be", then could you kindly explain how they could be "getting further apart"?
Is it something to do with continental drift? Or the observed fact that the universe is expanding?
Are you by any chance from Alaska? In which case, how do you feel about becoming part of Russia?
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Arthur:
"Maybe my grasp of elementary logic is up the spout today, but if they really are "as far apart as it is possible to be", then could you kindly explain how they could be "getting further apart"?"
Well, yes - it is your grasp of logic, in part. More to the point, it is your less-than-elementary grasp of language. Have you heard the word "metaphor"? It is part of symbolic language, and is generally developed in childhood....
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87 NETCRUSHER
Well, you see, a while ago, somebody realised that since Europeans cannot be defined as a 'race', picking on Europeans or the Brits (why not Danes, Gibraltarians or Lithuanians?) allows someone to sublimate hatred without breaking either the BBC house rules or British law.
(He muses, slightly under the philsophical influence. That's what happens when a blog puts up an interview with Fukuyama.)
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86
"The comments by Fukuyama are merely trendy nonsense. The election of one left-wing president does not mean we are moving towards Europe."
========================
Maybe not such nonsense. Check this out:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5010.htm
An extract, if I may:
"On this perverse view of the world, if America fails to achieve her ?national destiny?, and is mired in perpetual war, then all is well. Man?s humanity, defined in terms of struggle to the death, is rescued from extinction. But men like Heidegger, Schmitt, Kojève, and Strauss expect the worst. They expect that the universal spread of the spirit of commerce would soften manners and emasculate man. To my mind, this fascistic glorification of death and violence springs from a profound inability to celebrate life, joy, and the sheer thrill of existence. "
Here's to life, joy, and the sheer thrill of existence.
Yours,
A sleepy Canadian Pinko (who is still giggling about that blowgun, by the way)
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I'm not going to get involved in yet more circular arguments where as soon as an erroneous proposition is confounded it is simply turned into another one that purports to demonstrate its 'truth'.
But, if anyone wishes to purge themselves or their country of the influence of Islam, then they had better abandon algebra and mathematics, and a good deal of the philosophical foundation of Western thought.
(But perhaps, now I think of it, in one western country that's already happened?)
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MagicKirin, could you please stop defaming Zapatero? The fact is he did the democratic thing and acted on the will of the people.
Spain's involvement in Iraq was monstrously unpopular even before the train bombings; the people of Spain were well aware that it *increased* their chances of suffering terrorist attacks and had that entirely reasonable belief confirmed in the most tragic possible fashion. Are they all cowards?
Funny, isn't it, that rightists really don't actually like democracy all that much, if it doesn't 'come out the right way'!
Aznar was a tool, and got what a tool deserves. Democratically. Live with it.
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91. ArthurPutey wrote:
"Is it something to do with continental drift?"
I think I read the Atlantic is widening; perhaps that will mean one day the USA will come into collision with China.
Or am I getting plate tectonics mixed up with politics?
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#65, you got it in one guess! At heart, most of us are quite practically minded. We couldn't care less what you look like or what your religious denomination is. Being a nation of pioneers & immigrants, if it's just you and one other guy within days or weeks, you stop caring about how different they are, you start thinking about whether or not you can trust this neighbor to haul you out of a jam. I know of no European country which has a woman as it's majority party leader and a half breed Kenyan(black)/Irish Kansan(white) in the highest seat in the country. Moreover, the USA has had a single civil war in 200 years, yet it's composed of people from all over the globe with radically differing backgrounds. Europe has never managed any of that.
Americans simply do not care for ingrained opinions, we care about practicality. The RNC concentrated on the religious right, big business, white men, and the rich. In catering to such a select portion of the population, they ignored the total health of the country. They paid the price in the past 8 years, by losing time and again and refusing to adapt.
And for those of you who think Obama is leftist, he's actually a centrist. You're just used to thinking on the Right end of the scale.
As for Webb, I find it remarkably satisfying that an egotistical British man must now eat crow. Most of the world seems to be guilty of the same sin it accuses the USA of, categorizing people from countries into well defined slots, and getting condescending about it to boot.
As a white male from a blue collar family in the USA, I must say that I couldn't care less what country you're from, nor what you look like, nor how much money you have. I care about your compassion, honor, and honesty. I've been homeless for several years, and it's remarkable how that sort of hell burns off the delusions we all seem to have about the rest of the world. But then, I didn't care about stereotypes then either. I just watch and listen, to see what kind of person each new encounter brings. Just because it's something new to me doesn't mean I fear or hate it at first blush. I just get curious.
All of this is not to state that I feel superior to the rest of the world by virtue of being from the USA. We aren't superior at all, just different from what Webb seems to think we are. Stop watching the American media, and start talking to us instead. We might just surprise you.
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My video went black for ages for some reason, so I've only just noticed.
How can you possibly take seriously anybody who wears a tie with a knot that big and a soft button-down collar?
I really should have spotted that before I clicked on the 'Play' button.
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Jeebers 76:
"All of this is not to state that I feel superior to the rest of the world by virtue of being from the USA. We aren't superior at all, just different from what Webb seems to think we are. Stop watching the American media, and start talking to us instead. We might just surprise you."
______________________________
Good post, Jeebers. Pragmatism is absolutely cental to American life.
There are so many misconceptions about Americans. Unfortunately they are sometimes more fascinating than the truth.
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#100
"There are so many misconceptions about Americans. Unfortunately they are sometimes more fascinating than the truth."
Misconceptions are always more fascinating than the truth. Unfortunately, we don't get to meet too may americans to start talking.
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"Well, yes - it is your grasp of logic, in part. More to the point, it is your less-than-elementary grasp of language. Have you heard the word "metaphor"? It is part of symbolic language, and is generally developed in childhood...."
Actually ArthurPutey is doing a little better than you, TimothyR444. I read that as him getting your metaphor just fine and simply employing ironical phrasing to point out the accidental clumsiness of your construction. Snarky maybe, but not linguistically ignorant.
Yer still being too defensive. It's all good fun, come on, relax a bit. ;p
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Timothy (#92) - you asked if I have heard the word "metaphor".
Yes, I have. Luckily I also know what the word means.
So I've answered your question, whereas you haven't really addressed mine (in post #91) at all. Implying that "in part" the (surely obvious) problem with YOUR statement is somehow related to MY "grasp of logic" is not very helpful unless you explain how that's the case.
So let me try another tack.
Do you still stand by your assertion (in post #83) that "The US and Europe are as far apart as it is possible to be, and getting further apart"? I think this statement makes about as much sense as creationism, but I won't completely rule out the possibility that I've missed something.
I'll just add that I thought you'd see how you'd written something that contradicted itself (we've all been there!), immediately see the funny side, and respond with a witty rejoinder. That option is of course still very much on the table...
British-ish (#97), you advised thusly: "I think I read the Atlantic is widening; perhaps that will mean one day the USA will come into collision with China. Or am I getting plate tectonics mixed up with politics?"
That had me wondering what the Chinese equivalent of "The China Syndrome" is. "The American Syndrome" perhaps? After all, the Vietnamese refer to what the West calls "The Vietnam War" as "The American War".
And given yesterday's seismic shift in America which saw the global political landscape so transformed, I think it's perfectly understandable if anyone gets plate tectonics mixed up with politics.
Oh, and while I think of it, thanks for your frequently amusing responses to my sometimes silly posts.
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There's anger and disillusionment right now in America (When the average American can't pay their debts, they go bankrupt. When Wall Street can't pay its debts, Washington hands them a check!)
That said, America sees nothing wrong with European-style socialism so long as (1) it's truly necessary and (2) the government admits to it being as such (This is what sunk John McCain's presidential run -- he voted for a $750-billion bailout of Wall Street while at the same time he lectured America about the evils of the "redistribution of wealth.")
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Post #7; Dame_Maggie_Thatcher wrote: "European countries be afraid, because Americas spending power will be much less when we're heavily taxed. No more Jaguars or Volvos or IKEA for us".
As someone has already pointed out, Volvo is now owned by Ford (an American company).
I would like to add that Jaguar is now owned by Tata Motors (an Indian company) and IKEA is a cheap furniture shop; it does not sell luxury goods.
If a few less Yanks buy an Ektorp sofa over the next few years, I doubt that the Swedes will really care - or even notice.
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Fukuyama gives weak answers in the simple Q&A but also seemingly subverts his own beliefs with these lame answers. Anyone who has critically read his "The End of History" would have seen the very critical and damning errors made in his reasoning i.e. his complete acceptance of Hegelian dialectic. His point of view is a simple relapse of ideas and concepts that should die out with the dinosaurs that preach it.
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Post #66; Via-Media wrote: "I think the exact quote: "those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it."
-George W. Bush"
No.
The quote is misquoted, and the attribution is wrong.
It was George Santayana (not George W Bush) who first wrote: "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it".
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#92. TimothyR444: "Have you heard the word "metaphor"? It is part of symbolic language, and is generally developed in childhood...."
In which, cut to the chase, you still seem to be.
#105. Sankari: "I would like to add that Jaguar is now owned by Tata Motors (an Indian company) and IKEA is a cheap furniture shop; it does not sell luxury goods."
IKEA is hardly a "cheap" furniture shop, inexpensive perhaps, but not cheap. And, neither Volvo nor Jaguar really count as luxury vehicles, Rolls-Royce, Bentley and Maybach are the name tags which denote opulence. However, despite what the Dame writes, I don't believe that their sales will be adversely affected. Jags and Volvos are driven by middle management, not Board members.
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Post #80; ladycm wrote: "Weird, a European who is snobby and claims to know all 300,000 million Americans; w e i r d".
No.
The population of the USA is around 301 million, not 300,000 million.
300,000 million would be 300 billion. The population of our entire planet comes to a little under 6 billion.
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#107. Sankari: "It was George Santayana (not George W Bush) who first wrote: "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it".
Actually, he wrote "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." It has been rephrased frequently.
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Post #98; Jeebers76 wrote: "Moreover, the USA has had a single civil war in 200 years, yet it's composed of people from all over the globe with radically differing backgrounds".
I can beat that. My own country (Australia) has *never* had *any* civil war at all, in more than 200 years of history.
And we are one of the most multicultural nations on earth; a nation of immigrants (25% of Australians were born overseas).
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#6, David_Cunard, do you actually live in Europe? I do. The USA used to be popular around here, used to set trends etc., but not anymore. What you see in Europe that might remind you of the US is the result of previous changes, not ones that are taking place right now. European 'constitution' is very different from the Amrican one (just try to read it), the MacDonald's outlets pose no long-term threat for diverse European cuisine, clothes are the same around the world regardless who manufactures them, television is very different round here, spelling (?) - the craze for American English is over, Europeans today study either 'international' English or British English as that's what they're going to use while they travel Europe for work. So I'm afraid that you're wrong.
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106. dannythebull
Hooray! Further proof that at least a few of us actually listened to that dam' clip instead of just ignoring it so they could go on banging their same old drum yet again.
Pity it wasn't more substantial. But then, I suppose Fukuyama is a bit stuck for inspiration now the people he was pandering to with The End of History have gone into hiding.
107:
I took it that Dubbya had actually (mis- or slightly mis-)quoted it. For all I too make fun of him, I don't think he is that stupid, you know. Just allowed himself to be hi-jacked by some very persuasive people.
Exactly how persuasive can be seen by some of the views expressed here: right out of the William Kristol for Dummies guide. The first time I've ever seen 'trickle-down philosophy' in action.
Such a shame it was the wrong kind of philosophy. And so damaging.
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101, sorry about that. You'd have to spend time here at a political office or a coffee shop.
Misconceptions are ALWAYS more entertaining than the truth. Did you know Columbus never actually reached America? Or that the real reason why the Catholic Church split with Orthodox is a argument as to which city was the center, Rome or Constantinople (now Istanbul)? How about the fact that Jesus was a mason, NOT a carpenter (note the lack of wood in the middle east)? Obama really doesn't have any connection to Ayers, USA Democrats really aren't all that liberal and instead are more centrist....
It's easier to blow things out of proportion than state the bald truth to make your point. More fun too, apparently. Ever try that experiment in school where you tell someone something simple, and ask them to pass it on to the next guy? By the last class member, you wouldn't believe what you come up with!
Still, I would love it if all US women were buxom, curvy babes running about in red swimsuits on the beach. Fantasy is more appealing than reality, but oddly, reality has so much more interesting variations.
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111, I never said anything about Australia. I was mentioning Europe at the time.
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111. At 07:08am on 06 Nov 2008, Sankari wrote:
Post #98; Jeebers76 wrote: "Moreover, the USA has had a single civil war in 200 years, yet it's composed of people from all over the globe with radically differing backgrounds".
I can beat that. My own country (Australia) has *never* had *any* civil war at all, in more than 200 years of history.
Would anyone care to just google the date of the English Civil War, if we're going to play this game?
And can I point out the basic fallacy of the original proposition (which keeps being repeated by I suspect the same person under more than one screen name?)
If you are to make a comparison between one continent and another, then the 'American Continent's' 'civil' wars must include all those in South America too, not just the (North) American Civil War. Otherwise the comparison is simply invalid.
Neither WWI nor WWII were 'civil' wars, might I point out.
Have we got that now? I'm not going to repeat it.
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109. At 07:01am on 06 Nov 2008, Sankari wrote:
Post #80; ladycm wrote: "Weird, a European who is snobby and claims to know all 300,000 million Americans; w e i r d".
"No.
The population of the USA is around 301 million, not 300,000 million.
300,000 million would be 300 billion. The population of our entire planet comes to a little under 6 billion".
Yah, that makes a little more sense. Clearly a typo or, bad a U.S. education not sure.
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114. Jeebers76 wrote:
Careful: "(note the lack of wood in the middle east)"
The Mount of Olives? The emblem on the Lebanese flag?
It's not all deserts, you know, any more than Afghanistan (or Pakistan) is all caves . . .
As you say, misconceptions . . .
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116, Europe and England are inextricably linked, as is Ireland, Scotland, and England (not to mention Wales). The sum total of the land doesn't come close to the USA, but it does somewhat approximate the variety found in my country.
As for South America, it's usually referred to that or Latin America. Canada, despite being part of North America, is typically just referred to as Canada.
BTW, I like Canadians. The ones I've met seem like decent folk so far, but I suppose there will be exceptions eventually. South Americans fascinate me, with the hugely different worldviews even though Catholics seem to be the majority.
I humbly submit that therefore, my comparison is not in fact invalid. I found your post a mite rude and dangerously close to paranoia, in all honesty.
I was told once that Britain thinks of the USA even now as "the colonies". I didn't think this was true, because it seemed a little ridiculous. Your post seems to actually confirm the theory, is that what you meant the reader to infer?
Moreover, I've been corresponding with a lovely, intelligent British girl, so don't take any of my statements as UK bashing, please. It's not my intent.
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Yes, but poor people can't afford lots of wood in houses, particularly about 2000 years ago. Oddly, the stone structures outlasted the wooden ones. Kinda cool, eh?
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So sad, that Americans still cling to their myth of upward social mobility, when all the economic statistics could tell them they are if anything even MORE trapped by their origins than their counterparts in Europe and elsewhere in the developed world. Maybe the current crisis will open their eyes, and then... hey, the Wobblies are still there!
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Jeebers76 spot on.
As an Aussie having served in SVN, traveled to USA twice and Europe 3 times i'm thankful to live here. We have less regulation than than Europeans (& taxes to) but more regulation than the USA (which means our banks are not broke $$$$$), strict regulation on guns which means we have less suicides or homicides per capita, a fantastic medical and pharmacy system that at least protects the working poor and a voting population that finally said good by to 'little johny', favourite lap dog of Dubya.
Being an island continent has its drawbacks such as distance. From my point of view - the US for its grand scenary - Europe for its culture and history.
It appears to me, from media reports, that so many Americans view Obama as a socialist. Its funny because in Greece in '89 a greek aquaintance stressed to me that the Hawke government (Aussie) was communist. It was all I could do to stop laughing in his face so I suppose its all 'in the eye of the beholder'. Most Australians were barracking for Obama and to view him as socialist is strange when it only appears that he wants to introduce a half decent health system clear the Bush mess up etc.
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#112. dj1979: "The USA used to be popular around here . . . So I'm afraid that you're wrong."
Up until last year I maintained homes in both the UK and the US; in August last I spent a month in Britain and other parts of Europe. I can tell you that I am not "wrong". Do you need a list of American goods, culture and ideas which have originated in the USA and have permeated Europe - and Britain in particular. Tell me what clothes and shoes you wear, what fast food you eat and the origination of supermarket and shopping precincts/malls. What shows do you and others watch on television, what films are most popular? School buses are now going to copy the American yellow kind, flashing indicator lights superseded the old "trafficators" (long before your time), frozen food was developed in the USA, likewise the microwave oven and refrigerator. The list is almost endless, and whether you care to agree or not, the United States has had, and continues to have, an enormous effect in Europe. And if there is such a thing as "international English" it must surely derive from American use, since the USA exports so much of its art by the way of films, television and music. I think you had better stick to your knowledge of China which is demonstrated in your other posts.
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I wonder if I could drop a helpful hint for the future?
Anyone who wants to claim an American identity and speak for Americans in general might be well advised not simply to switch their spellchecker to 'US English' but to avoid certain idiosyncratic British English usages to avoid giving the game away.
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# 16
Fear not to be "boring".
Such a complaint was posted by an elderly person with a very limited attention span.
Erudite comments can be long and informative.
(It is unfortunate that the non-erudite are more often of great length.)
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119. Jeebers76
I was merely trying to point out the fallacy at the heart of some comments that appear usually several times in any thread on this blog. Though those who repeat it most often have either now left or not appeared yet.
Europe (the continent) is not the same as the European Union. That is composed of more then twenty nation states, with their own languages, cultures and histories.
They share certain common laws and a handful of common institutions. Otherwise, they are actually more diverse than any two states in the USA, and in some respects, more than the USA and South American (or Latin American if you prefer) countries.
You wrote: "[The USA] is composed of people from all over the globe with radically differing backgrounds. Europe has never managed any of that."
Well, you see, so is Britain. (people have emigrated here from continental Europe, including Russia, Africa and Asia over the last two hundred years and more too.) And our only civil war ended almost 350 years ago.
I don't think trying to explain that demonstrates any form of paranoia.
(And, if I may point something out: the two words you used in post 76 to describe your new president are very offensive in British usage and I would have thought in American usage too.)
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Anyone who believes america would emulate a european system, with heath care for all and bringing america in line with the majority of britain's former commonwealth countries must be on some form of psychotic drugs! This insular country, which does indeed try to emulate many things of european origin and remarkets them, has an agenda that is unique to them. When resident in the usa, it became clear to me that an elitist minority deliberately controlled the lives of the majority and instilled into the populous a well contrived plan to keep them from going out of this country into the unknown 'the wilderness outside where they have no civilisation', those that do venture are discouraged from telling the truth about this 'void'. The children are often poorly educated other than in skills that will be of military use to america, and for a country that talks so much of freedom, well you have the freedom to be sick and starve there! I have lived in all four corners of the usa, and conclude that maybe in another 40 years just maybe it will be somewhere britain is today culturely, it is not ready for a european style of emulation. Guns and relignon say it all, this country is so insecure, they cling to both. The wild west frontier is still going, will we emulate america, yep for different reasons though. Ours is a country that lost it's empire, america never had one or ever will, it has not even formed it's own country yet.
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123. David_Cunard
I'm not sure whether it's significant or not, but despite all that, I've noticed increasingly over the last four years or so that you hear much less of an American intonation from non-native English speakers around the world than used to be the case.
Spelling -- and sometimes grammar -- is a different matter thanks to most software effectively using American English.
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Does anyone have any alka seltzer?
Photophobic Sam
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I've been wondering about this a lot of late. Is it essential that a rant should be full of terrible spelling and worse grammar?
Or is it that lots of people switch the squiggly lines off? Or are the blind to the colour red?
(When annoyed, I have sometimes said -- er, often said, lately -- to some of my non-English friends that I wonder if the IQ of the whole dam' country put together actually reaches double figures.)
Just saying.
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129. SamTyler1969
Look, in your state, I really wouldn't go to the fairground and go on one of those spiral things you slide down on a mat.
(Oh, sorry, misread that. I thought it was 'helter skelter'.)
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#127
Jax,
We do have paragraphs though. So we've got that going for us.
I was interested by your post, because it talks to having a knowledge of America but not an understanding.
America does not have an empire because it is not in our nature to want one. We are too independent. Tried that with the Phillipines, didn't like it.
As for a European system, the EU becomes more a model like our federal system with every treaty. The efforts to write a constitution and bill of rights reinforce the move towards an American system. If only theose Euro beurocrats could be elected, you'd be even closer. The one thing we could use and may finally be moving towards is universal health care, possibly with a hybrid payer system like the UK. So thanks for that idea.
In terms of travel, Europeans are as little traveled as we yanks. Two weeks in Torremolinos to drink Watneys Red Barrel and get a sun burn hardly qualifies the average Brit as sophisticated and travelled. To confuse the different languages of Europe as representing a greater difference in culture than between, say, Boston and Key West really underestimates the differences in the great nation of ours. Most of our young people spend at least one semester overseas or in S America as part of their college education. Some of us travel a lot, you just don't see us because we are not 'Ugly Americans'.
Unfortunately, as posted here before, we have not slaughtered the native fauna and flora to the point of their greatest threat to us being bird poop on a nice jacket. Plus we have deer, wild turkey and so on to hunt and eat. Yummy. So yes, we have guns. As do you, BTW, there are just stricter license laws.
So in terms of being where Britain is now in 40 years? Unlikely, we are in so many ways ahead and so many ways different. It's a shame you didn't pick up on that while you were here. Or perhaps you were too busy looking down your nose to see what was in front of you?
Traveler Sam
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#128 british-ish
I change my spell checker from the default American English to the British English, because my screen would be covered in red underlines otherwise. Though here in India, American accents are adopted by call centres. Guess you can't avoid it.
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ref #98
This is not an accusation but an honest question. What positions of Obama and his voting record demonstate he is a centrist?
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#131
plink plink fizzzzzzzzzzzzz
Relieved Sam
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# 132
Good post from Sam who must be suffering from a well-earned hangover. I enjoy the thought the he allows himself to be led astray when visiting Europe.
He does not give a full picture of the travel issue. More British people spend two weeks in Florida each year than Torremolinos. I am not in the sort of mood to work out whether this is good or bad, but is a fact.
Nor does he mention the low cost airlines that have sneaked into our British culture - people think of weekends in Rejkavich, Prague or Barcelona as their right and mercifully most stag parties are now exported overseas.
Travel has become such a part of the culture of middle England that there is a backlash and it is now fashionable to spend your leisure time in the U.K.
It is worth pointing out that the USA wouldn't be up to much if the Europeans hadn't been intrinsic travellers.
Don't know what the ratio of passport ownership USA-to-GB is, but I would have a handsome bet with Saw that GB is much higher.
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"The Europe that has reputable leaders again in France, Germany and Italy" MagicKirin
MagicKirin considers Silvio Berlusconi "reputable". This is a man who has passed laws changing Italy's statute of limitations specifically to avoid being prosecuted for corruption; who was in fact convicted of giving false testimony in court concerning his membership of the mafia-linked Masonic lodge "P2" in 1990; who the right-wing "Economist" magazine considers "unfit to govern Italy", and who retains effective control of most of Italian broadcasting while Prime Minister.
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132. SamTyler1969
Watney's Red Barrel? I never knew they still brewed that. It was notorious, apparently.
And Torremolinos. Ibiza. . .
Quite. See 130.
Hey, now, we still have deer. And a couple of boar are said to have got loose. But yes, indeed, we (or the various monarchs from William the Conqueror on, really) did manage to kill off the more vicious beasts.
I see your point though. Perhaps if we still had a few meeses about (assuming we ever did, I'm not sure about that) it might give some teenagers something else to use their guns on instead of each other.
(Or maybe not. Doesn't really work that way in Washington or Detroit from what a couple of people have told me. But at least it might give policemen a better target than young Brazilian electricians.)
133. paul939 wrote:
#128 british-ish
I change my spell checker from the default American English to the British English, because my screen would be covered in red underlines otherwise. Though here in India, American accents are adopted by call centres. Guess you can't avoid it.
I saw a little documentary about that. Only for the States, though I think; whenever I've called one I've always heard a normal Indian accent. (I was going to say 'British Indian', but that's not quite right. You know what I mean though.)
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"in the US the working classes tend vote conservative" - Agent00Soul
They tend to vote Democrat. Of course, this still is pretty conservative in European terms, but it's the most left-wing viable option available to them.
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"I don't want to be part of a new world that appeases terrorists and dosen't reward hard work." MagicKirin
Does this mean we won't be hearing fromyou again? (He asked hopefully.)
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130 british-ish:
Sadly standards are falling. I dislike spellcheckers, except the one between my ears. I try to write my posts in good english, with correct spelling and punctuation. Something I wonder about though, is my use of commas. Occasionally I overdose on them. Strange.
In response to the video. Not very enlightening. No, I don't think the USA is 'moving' towards Europe, unless tectonically, but as allmy observed, it may be more outward-looking than in the past. As for Britain, I would agree with DC that we have become quite Americanized, particularly in the sense of consumerism, perhaps less so culturally.
I wonder if there is not some parallel between Britain's grudging realization that we had to come to some sort of arrangement with Europe, and America's tentative acceptance of the need to talk to the rest of the world about climate change, reforming the economic system, etc.
I kind of agree with Sam in that we do seem to be forming a USE. But we have a lousy constitution, lots of debate about state and federal powers (particularly in the UK), the role of a president, the status and democrat accountability of the commission, and many other issues.
Sorry, that last sentence was a bit clumsy, hope the meaning was clear.
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132 Sam:
Torremolinos, Torremolinos, Torremolinos!
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hcCuBWXd-hc
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"Or by reputable did you [MagicKirin] mean 'right wing'?" - john-in-Dublin
Not exactly. MK hates Chirac as well. What he means is "unquestioningly supports US neocon foreign policy".
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132, Sam:
"If only theose Euro beurocrats could be elected, you'd be even closer."
It's a puzzle that. In some respects we can blame that on the French and their love (institutional I mean) of a kind of 'elite' bureaucracy, but it's probably inescapable.
How on earth would an elector in Spain really know whether an Estonian was worth electing? It'd be a bit like asking an Alaskan to vote on a Chilean or a Guyanan for office in Havana.
Something of the sort will probably have to be worked out sooner or later, but the whole thing is still fairly experimental. It's going to get even more complicated if countries like Algeria or Morocco join, which I can see happening in the next decade or two.
Anyway, a more tightly 'federal' Europe's a bit on the back burner for the time being. But please, don't let us get involved in that. (I'm probably going to get it in the neck for at least the previous paragraph anyway.)
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British-ish,
sorry to be pedantic, but I'm not sure it's true to say we have only had one civil war.
The Wars of the Roses and the conflict between Stephen and Matilda could, technically be classified as such.
As could the Baron's revolt under King John (which resulted in England being ruled by a King Louis for a time - not a lot of people know that...)
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What about an 'Empire of Liberty"? (gee that guy was sure good with words)
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137. Nick-Gotts
Please!
Don't remind me. At least not in such detail. (Shudders.) I'm half-Italian. It's embarrassing.
Worse even than baby seals and Sarah Palin.
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#140
Nick,
If Magic believes that then we have a new Viz character assigned, Suicidal Sid.
BTW GWB is now officially Roger Irrelevant. But someone needs to watch him and make sure he doesn't screw anything else up in the time he has left. I promise to do Tuesday afternoons.
Watchdog Sam
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Did anybody notice the little outbreak of Bill-bashing that broke out on the morning after the election ?
For all his funny ways, his reputation is usually handled with kid gloves - so I put the backlash down to the fact that he foolishly allowed himself to say in public that Obama could not win. This allowed comparisons to be made with the dragon-slaying triumphalism of the celebrations of his win in 1992, and criticisms of the way he wasted his transition period and his first six months in office.
Has he made any public announcement welcoming his new successor ?
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"I wonder if I could drop a helpful hint for the future?"
Perhaps I may too, for the benefit of the folk using a particular word?
Populous = "the city was a populous, bustling place".
Populace = "the populace was troubled by wars and rumours of wars".
The former means 'populated', not 'the people', you see.
Usage-nazi mode...off.
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I was thinking about this idea of a USE earlier. There is a fair amount of opposition to the idea both in the UK and continental Europe, but it does seem to be happening by default. When we create a European army, elect a president, and join the euro I guess it will be a done deal. I doubt whether it will be an eloquent solution. Far to many decisions are being made behind the electorate's backs. Given the stature of our current crop of politicians, it would be amazing if it did'n't end up a complete disaster. Some may say it already is.
Of course, as I allude to in my post above, there are trends globally towards increasing cooperation between governments. Communications, technology, travel are bringing us ever closer together. That ultimately means closer political ties. It will not we lose our cultural identities, just that they will get more and more complex. A world government, the ultimate fear of some, is probably just as inevitable as the EU. All one can hope for is that liberty and freedom are preserved. For a template for such an institution, my first choice would be the constitution of the USA
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I thought Mr Fukujama has been consigned to the "dustbin of history" together with the rest of the neo-conservative Bush supporters camp. If not, why not? Because he should be.....
As to the USA, its patently clear from the voting map and associated results that there is a clear difference between the northeast and west coast heartlands of the current democratic party and the agricultural traditional inward looking deep south and mid west of the current republicans. Whatever happened to the conservative "southern democrats"?
Ironically also, the USA economy has done much better under Democratic control than under the neoliberal neoconservative Republican party....Why is that? Is it because the Republicans throw away all caution when it comes to spending on the military sector, to the detriment of others and are completely incapable of generating a balanced budget, let alone a positive budget, despite thier mantra of "less government".
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#132
Sam
It's true to say that the Brits are in not so well-travelled as we'd like to claim, and that two weeks in a British enclave in Spain does not make for an informed judgement. At the same time, we are, typically, a lot more aware of world events because we are so much smaller than the USA. What happens in Pakistan will be of just as much/little relevance to the average Liverpudlian as it is to an Iowan, yet the world knowledge would, I'd wager, be higher in the UK.
Part of this is size; people in the UK think it quite adventurous for me to drive 700 miles to my ski chalet in France, whereas a similar drive in the US wouldn't generate even the slightest of eyebrow raises. You simply have more stuff going on around you, and perhaps have less need to travel outside your national borders. Accordingly, less importance might be placed on information about other countries.
Regarding guns, you're being disingenous to imply that they are in the main owned for hunting in the USA. Of course there are hunting rifles in the States, with which I have no problem, but you can't seriously tell me that you want/need an assault weapon to hunt duck? Typically I shred duck *after* cooking rather than before......
We British simply don't have a desire for guns, and it would be considered odd in the extreme for me to own one unless I was a farmer. Even then, that would be a utility device, probably a standard shotgun for pest control. There are of course those in the hunting fraternity who have guns, but they're in the smallest of minorities. Certainly the guns you've mentioned that you possess would make you an object of some considerable curiosity/suspicion in Britain.
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# 144 Brit
Para 4 - oh great ! The Daily Mail will be sending the former Duchess of York to do a few more of her "undercover investigatory documentaries" on their funny ways with camels.
Para 5 - yes.
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144 british-ish:
Yes, some quite interesting problems ...
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The following news is very instructive.
AP
Stocks plunge anew as recession worries resurface
Wednesday November 5, 6:29 pm ET
By Sara Lepro and Tim Paradis, AP Business Writer
Wall Street falls sharply as investors, worrying about recess, ponder Obama impact on economy...
The story goes on further to state..
"The celebration is over. Today we saw a bit of reality," said Al Goldman, chief market strategist at Wachovia Securities in St. Louis. "President-elect Obama is coming into a situation with limited experience, having to handle an economy in serious trouble, a couple of wars and terrorism. It's an extremely tough job."
Please be warned that whenever emotions triumph over reason and common sense, it usually results in dash hopes and expectations.
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141. selfevidenttruths
There's nothing wrong with a nice comma or three. I like semi-colons and hyphens as well. And the initial capitalisation of titles.
(I hate the Guardian Style Guide, which would have us writing the ambiguous 'foreign secretary' instead of 'Foreign Secretary'. It's why I like it here. I can indulge myself with commas, colons, semi-colons and lots of hyphens and even m-dashes I'm not allowed to play with when I'm working.
No, forget the m-dashes. The software turns those into funny question marks: note to Beeb, fix that will you?)
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@ 53 "Right; that's enough I'm off for a glass of wine and an early start to sort out the sheep and horses."
Drinking before breakfast isn't a good sign;-)
But seriously, an interesting take on America, politics, and life in general. I think I agree with you.
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@55 "We promise to keep the toilet seat down if you promise to squeeze the toothpaste tube from the bottom..."
I could have done without that mental image;-)
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a European who is snobby and claims to know all 300,000 million Americans ladycm
Wow! 300,000,000,000 of you! No wonder you use such a large share of the Earth's resources! The rest of us total less than 7,000,000,000.
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#148
Re Viz:
Big Vern has popped up several times, to go on the posts from some of the more 'survivalist' types who've popped up from time to time on this blog.
Billy Britain has clearly made an appearance from time to time, as well as Ivan Jelical.
There's a fair number of Yankee Dougals as well.....
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#148
The only possible upside of the financial meltdown is the constraint that it puts on GWB and his ability to cause yet more global mayhem before 20 January.
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"As sovereign nations go the United States is not very old." - Invisiblehand
Actually this is only true in comparison to European nations - and only very partially there. Many current European states came into existence in the 1800s, and most of the world's states in the 1900s.
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145. Feohme
I was afraid someone might bring those up.
I steered clear of them because they were, in a way, wars between ruling factions that didn't involve the greater part of the population.
I thought it would confuse the issue, because then we'd have to bring in the wars between the Indian tribes of South America at about the same period, and I'm pretty vague about them. And I definitely don't want to get the Maya in on the act or we'll be getting nothing but that 'world ends in 2012' (or 2011?) stuff.
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# 152 MikeWarsaw
Jon Snow said yesterday evening that Bush came into power as a social conservative and leaves as a conservative socialist.
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I'm guessing that Obama will be a genuine 'world leader'. In future times of great events or crises world leaders will wait until the POTUS speaks.
Are we all American now?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
156 ice:
er, he has'n't taken over yet ..., and I don't recall anyone saying that the economic situation would improve any time soon. Lets see what things are like in a years time. Whether you support him or not, and I am pretty sure you don't, surely you wish well, for the good of the USA.
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On a technical note, my second rate hearing had trouble listening to Fukuyama. I had to turn the volume up when he spoke and then quickly had to turn it down when Justin spoke. Justin woke my son Bertie up!
Fukuyama normally talks nonsense anyway but disagreeing with him is a pleasurable pastime.
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154. eightypercent wrote:
# 144 Brit
Para 4 - oh great ! The Daily Mail will be sending the former Duchess of York to do a few more of her "undercover investigatory documentaries" on their funny ways with camels.
Do they really? Under cover of what? A bell tent? I've never read that newspaper.
Well, camels do have big toes. . .
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124. british-ish wrote:
"Anyone who wants to claim an American identity and speak for Americans in general might be well advised not simply to switch their spellchecker to 'US English' but to avoid certain idiosyncratic British English usages to avoid giving the game away."
Although the latter would not necessarily mean anything. I am an American who has lived in Britain for many years. While my colleagues in the UK highlight my "Americanisms" in conversation, I am sure that I do sometimes use some phrases I have picked up form acquaintances here over the years. Doesn't make me British though.
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icetayoa quotes "Al Goldman, chief market strategist at Wachovia Securities"
(Now that name rings a bell. Wonder why? Wonder how he's still got a job? Wonder why anybody would listen to him for one second? He's a 'strategist'?!!!!)
And, as usual, skips nine tenths of the story: consumer spending down, unemployment up, car sales down to practically nothing, bail out not working, 'recession' to be formally acknowledged soon, etc. etc.
A lot more to it than Obama, OK? And who exactly is President at the moment? Until mid-January or thereabouts?
Give us a break.
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SamTyler1969@32,
Maybe you hadn't been drinking enough to understand Mr. Sanders?
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# 170 Brit
Check it out today for relevant story - online (no I wouldn't pay for it either but its good to keep up with what the other side is doing)
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171. Schwerpunkt
That (124) was aimed at someone who has departed this blog. After being rumbled, I presume.
Couldn't be more specific, because it would have fallen foul of the mods.
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#130
Ish,
Some of us don't get squiggly lines in a browser and typing into word first is a PITA.
Wasn't there an old song about 'We'll rant and we'll roar like true British sailors . . .'? Perhaps it is the standard of literacy in the Royal Navy we should be concerned with?
Sailor Sam
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For those of us still basking in the joy engendered by Obama's victory, here's something to get tears of laughter rolling down our cheeks:
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_110508/content/01125106.guest.html
So Rash Limbo knows the reasons why the republicans lost
1) Low voter turn out!
2) The Democrats stole the election with fraud
3) The republicans just weren't "conservative" enough
He also tells us he knew they were going to lose, even though on election day he was predicted a win and a conservative surge.
Not only is his rant screamingly funny, it is good news for sane people everywhere. If enough republicans follow his advice the party will split leaving the "conservatives" to inspect their navels and allow a real republican party based on fiscal conservatism and social libertarianism to emerge.
Cheers Rash you just put the cherry on top!
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What is a PITA?
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BBC reported that the chances for upward mobility in Europe were as great as in America. I don't believe it for one second. - MAII
Of course you don't, as your beliefs are utterly impervious to the facts, but you might like to glance at:
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
Intergenerational mobility (the chance to rise or fall) is less in the US (and UK) than in the Nordic countries, renowned for thier evil socialistic practices.
It makes sense when you think about it: inequality is much greater in the US, so those at the bottom start with a much greater handicap than in, say, Sweden.
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176. SamTyler1969
Ah, but there is a rank in the Royal Navy of "Petty Officer Writer.
(I think you may have to write a short novel, or at least a short story, to get the promotion.)
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# 166
Dceilar - Yes !
Let the twenty-first century commence.
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"Even mainstream Europeans left-wingers seem to hate flags" Agent00Soul
Not universally true. Ever visited Denmark? Possibly a greater density of flags than in the USA - almost every household owns one.
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Chronophobe (60),
Get blogwardly mobile herePeace and blogeracy
ed
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"That is the Imperial design of European Nations. They still consider two greatest Democracies, India and USA as colonies even today in 2008." Medhavin
I understand there are effective treaments for paranoid psychosis these days, Medhavin, although they are not without side-effects. Consult your medical adviser.
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88# TimothyR444 wrote:
Yes - and Europe is moving much closer to Islam.
One of the most intriguing and disturbing aspects of this blog is the extraordinary hostilty to Christianity, expressed in the crudest and most insulting terms.
On the other hand, Islam is celebrated and supported. It would be unimaginable for anyone here to say anything critical about Islam. The irony, of course, is that this is coming from those who claim to be open-minded and stuffed with love.
Europeans are rapidly moving away from roots in the ancient Christian civilization that once existed in Europe and are embracing Islam - not as a religion, but as a culture. This is another enormous difference between the US and Europe, and certainly helps explain so much of the deep anti-Americanism that is so popular in Europe.
............................
We do criticise Islam too, and in the same terms as we do Christianity. The difference is that in our countries the Christians have had more influence and thus there is more, in our countries, to argue against.
If you think Europe is embracing Islam, you are even more deluded than I thought. But keep reading those rightwing blogs, they really give you the facts.
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180. (Sigh). Better try to get it right. 'Chief Petty Officer Writer."
I don't know whether they have 'Able/Leading Seaman' Writers, though, come to think of it. Suppose they must do.
Don't think there are 'Captain' or 'Admiral' Writers. Perhaps they give it up after a while?
How did we get on to this?
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#177
I tried to read that but I couldn't take more than a few pararaphs.
Is he always this .... I struggle for the right word, but the only one that comes to mind is ....vile.
Then again, he's preaching to the converted, and they like what he has to say, so I guess he'll just keep on saying it, and they'll keep believing it.
Thing is, the average age of the Republican voter is getting older. And, like the readership of the Daily Express in Britain, that means their base support is literally dying out.
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selfevidenttruths wrote:
What is a PITA?
Flat unleavened bread. You know: what you put your kebab in.
Don't know what that has to do with word processing though.
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Re:#178 PITA = Pain In the Arse
(as Basil Fawlty once noted it's all bottoms with us)
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178/188
Could be wrong about PITA. Perhaps its the feminine (plural?) of POTUS?
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177: The man is a complete loon!
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Via Media (78),
Yes.Peace and tufted ears
ed
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188: lol, I knew that was coming. 189: ta.
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190:
Funny, I thought something along those line too.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Arthur,
And, if you start walkingf on Scotch Street in Carlisle, you'll eventually find yourself on English Street in Dumfries...;-)
ed
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187, endorfin wrote:
#177
"I tried to read that but I couldn't take more than a few paragraphs"
Well, I see where some people get their incomprehensible rants from. Does he do this all day?
All I could understand was the bit where he says Republicans aren't 'homophones'. That's true, anyway.
No, looking at it now, I don't understand that either.
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Candace
So you've been to an AA meeting, too?;-)
ed
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Ed # tufty notes
How IS Obama ?
Did he have a good summer ? Did he father any little Obamas ?
Have you told him what his namesake has been up to ?
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#185: well said.
Just a slightly paranoid world view there, Timbo!
"OH MY GOD, IT ALL FITS TOGETHER!!!" should always ring alarm bells...
Embraced, ha. Islamic immigration is a *controversial* topic throughout Europe and for that matter here in Australia.
I remember seeing enormous advertising billboards all over Vienna once, featuring happy smiling Turkish immigrant lifesavers and bakers, getting on famously with the locals. It was the government's way of saying 'please don't form skinhead mobs and lynch these people, it's not nice'.
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Sankari (107),
Check your irony filters again...;-)
ed
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Non discussion of an election is more than a convention on a BBC blog. The House Rules say -
"In line with the political parties and other UK broadcasters, the BBC will not be reporting the election campaign or offering discussion about the campaign on any of its outlets while the polls are open. The message boards will remain open on Polling Day, but users must refrain from discussing the election while the polls are open. Usual BBC House Rules will resume once the polls are closed."
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Re my #202
Sorry. Wrong blog.
I don't imagine anyone here is going to be discussing a Scottish by-election!
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We [Americans]couldn't care less what you look like or what your religious denomination is. - Jeebers76
Just so long as you have one, and are not - HORRORS - an atheist. George Bush Snr. publically called atheists "un-American" and expressed doubts about whether they could be US citizens. in the recent elections,
Liddy Dole made a thoroughly slimy and dishonest advert about her opponent, Kay Hagan, insinuating that she was an atheist - and Hagan's response was not to say "Well, as it happens I'm not, but so what if I were?" - instead, she went in for some atheist-bashing herself! And Wolf Blitzer, when covering the matter, didn't actually invite any atheists to join the discussion he chaired.
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ref #178
Are you asking about PETA?
People for the Ethical Treatment of animals?
If so they are group opposed
To any exploitation of animals:
for food
entertainment
medical research
etc.
They compare the caging of animals to the Holocost
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David (123),
But are you proud or ashamed?
;-)
ed
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Why is anyone interested in what Francis Fukuyama has to say? He has been proven to be a total intellectual lightweight. Just ignore him.
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"Or are your red squirrels of different temperament than ours? The American species is actually very vicious and aggressive, and one of the biggest predators of birds' nests." - Via-Media
Reds do take some eggs, but are mostly seed-eaters, favouring coniferous woods. They are much prettier than the greys, too. (Google will access lots of nice pics). Interestingly, a black variety of the grey squirrel has now appeared in East Anglia, and is spreading from there.
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# 205
No
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Sam,
I've often remarked that the Brits seem to be looking down their noses at everything American, while running as fast as possible to pick it up... A dangerous practice, quite possibly resulting in a broken nose.Peace and Perspicacity
ed
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80% (136),
I am!Peace and Localism
ed
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Having just actually watched the video, I'm astonished to say Fukuyama was actually talking sense! His take on the voting patterns of the US working class can be summed up as: "When times are bad, they vote the Dems in to sort the economy out; once it gets better, their religious beliefs lead them to vote against their economic interests until the Reps screw things up again". Quite insightful! So, Obama, if you want to keep your party in power indefinitely, set about spreading atheism!
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200. At 1:01pm on 06 Nov 2008, Blimmineck wrote:
"#185: well said.
Just a slightly paranoid world view there, Timbo!"
It was "the ancient Christian civilisation that once existed in Europe" that got me curious. So I backtracked through a few user names that have come up with the same thing.
It appears that some people believe this "ancient Christian civilisation" has existed for 6,000 years. Which is a bit odd, isn't it? And I'm not kidding, honest.
I'm beginning to wonder about this 'Creationism' thing. Must be a lot weirder than I thought.
But what's 'Islamic immigration' mean? We have lots of people here who are Muslim, but of very different national origins -- from Africa through the Middle East to Asia -- and Christians and Sikhs and a few others (even Zorastrians) as well.
It's the Wahabi sect who cause any controversy, by and large.
No-one talks about 'Christian' or 'Buddhist' immigration do they? Don't like that phrase much, somehow.
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200/185/88:
In agreement with regards to post 88. It is not so much that Christianity, Islam or any religion is a problem per se. It is fundamentalism, and that covers ideology as well. Unfortunately, it is true that Islamic fundamentalism is the biggest security threat currently facing the world. Which not to say that the vast majority of muslims are any different from you and I. Sadly, because of various terror outrages, muslims living in the west must live under a cloud of suspicion. There are efforts in the wider Islamic world to reclaim those texts of the Koran used by the fanatics to justify their action. We can only wish them success. We can do our part by respecting Islam, honouring our own laws regarding freedom of worship, speech, equal protection, and working towards a more accommodating relationship with Islamic countries. Obviously, an eventual solution to the Israeli/Palestinian situation would be a big help. Finally issues of poverty and education have to be addressed. Apart from our own countries, we can only help indirectly. Comfortably housed, fed, and secure individuals are largely immune to radicalisation.
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203. At 1:08pm on 06 Nov 2008, oldnat wrote:
"Re my #202
Sorry. Wrong blog.
I don't imagine anyone here is going to be discussing a Scottish by-election!"
That hadn't occurred to me, but of course, it could become a means to influence the vote easily, couldn't it? Makes you think a bit.
Don't suppose ABC or CBS will have a blog on Scottish by-elections?
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Brit,
Para 3,
Well you know that Christians and Dinosaurs shared the earth 4,000 years ago. Sarah told you so.
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Icetoya (156),
And it's patently obvious that McCain and Palin were far better equipped to deal with economic chaos...Peace and common sense
ed
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#191
177: The man is a complete loon!
=====================
Hey now! I happen to have a great fondness for that bird.
Rush Limbaugh a loon! Please, that man is simply this.
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208.Nick-Gotts
"They are much prettier than the greys, too. (Google will access lots of nice pics)."
Have you seen Ed's pic of Obama? (192) I've got quite fond of him since the foundation of the Squirrel Party.
I've just remembered. Didn't someone offer him a year's supply of nuts or something if the other Obama won?
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Ed
Dinna fash y'self ~ I'm on your side.
Either Sam's hangover or his jetlag had led him into a rare lapse in accuracy which I felt needed challenging.
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#210
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I found that sweeping statement rather offensive.
I'm sure there are British people who do act in exactly the way you describe, just as there are others (Madonna as a prime example) who do the opposite.
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Sam (176),
Get Firefox. And Word is a PITA, full stop! Besides, this pitiful software (windoze hybrid) translates all sorts of characters into £...Peace and Free software (or is that "socialist"?)
ed
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200/185: Of course I meant I agree with your comments regarding post 88. And with ish at 213.
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"It would be unimaginable for anyone here to say anything critical about Islam...
Europeans are rapidly moving away from roots in the ancient Christian civilization that once existed in Europe and are embracing Islam - not as a religion, but as a culture. This is another enormous difference between the US and Europe, and certainly helps explain so much of the deep anti-Americanism that is so popular in Europe."
Islam is a false, misogynistic and dangerous belief-system.
"embracing Islam not as a religion",
i.e. , not embracing Islam.
"much of the deep anti-Americanism that is so popular in Europe."
I think it might possibly have something to do with the illegal invasion of Iraq on the basis of lies, and trying to drag European countries into it.
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Hmmm, I guess I should add that I am not in favour of cosying up to countries that don't respect the basic human rights of their citizens, or who support terrorist agendas, or whose foreign policy objectives are inconsistent with the UN charter.
Just in case ...
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216. At 1:38pm on 06 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:
Brit,
Well you know that Christians and Dinosaurs shared the earth 4,000 years ago. Sarah told you so.
So that's where Fukuyama went wrong then? It's not the end of history that's the problem it's the beginning.
(That man's name is beginning to really irritate me. One bit of careless typing and you get into trouble with the mods.)
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Last disclaimer:
I said 'Sadly, because of various terror outrages, muslims living in the west must live under a cloud of suspicion.' The word 'must' should be removed. I meant that it is sad that so many people are stained by the actions of a few.
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Self Evident (214),
An essential element of any amelioration being one of the chief and most persistent irritants...Well said! And,
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi
ed
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#183
Ed, it works! Thanks!
Yours,
A grateful Canadian Pinko
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# 219
Brit
I suggested we get the RSPB to deliver a big bag of their peanuts (not a year's supply) to Ed to thank him for keeping us chipper during some of the more overwrought days of the campaign.
Also to thank him for regular outings of the Obama pics - although I think we need an update now (see above)
I seem to remember that I divvied you in to the RSPB offer as a penalty for founding the squirrel party.
But I'll let you off.
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RE: Post #44
"BTW I will be quitting my job the afternoon Obama is sworn in and going on welfare. And I have expensive tastes! ;)"
Be sure to get crab meat and caviar with the food stamps! :D
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Endorfin (221),
No offence (or offense) intended, but have a look at David's post at 123 for some pertinent examples, and then consider the reality around us, right down to politicians engaging in the unseemly practice of "running" for office, instead of the far more genteel "standing"...;-)
Peace and Albaphilia (Och Aye!)
ed
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# 226
On the other hand, Fukuyama would be a useful mod-friendly code word for use on this site - especially since certain people have not accepted the sensitive, veiled hint directed at them by the November 4 election result.
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Nick,
Is this you, or are you quoting?The statement is as abhorrent as it would be if applied indiscriminately to any "belief system". It is also as capable of being seen as true of any "belief system", including Christianity and Atheism (a completely internally inconsistent system, considering the impossibility of proving a negative)
Salaam, etc.
ed
Islam is ""Submission to the will of God", insh'allah.
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Ann Coulter
Kind says it all doesn't it. Can't start on BHO just yet, but I noticed th AP headline on Yahoo, "After a few Days off after Campaign, Obama assembles white house staff"
A few days? He started yesterday, the day after the campaign without a break. The Media is so in the tank,...
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#244
Re: "Europeans are rapidly moving away from roots in the ancient Christian civilization that once existed in Europe and are embracing Islam - not as a religion, but as a culture . . . etc., etc., blah blah blah."
He's more or less incoherently regurgitating the babble of Mark Steyn, who managed to parlay this sort of rubbish into a long, boring book.
He was (is?) a Canadian, who's gone down to the States to scribble after an obscure Islamic group brought an (absurd) human rights complaint against him for this article.
He's made himself into a sort of poster boy for oppressed white Christians every where.
You gotta love his tag line:"It's the end of the world as we know it."
Yours,
A Canadian Pinko, cowering in fear, waiting for the end
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Ed Iglehart *211 (via link) "If we think feeding nine billion is going to be problematic, try supplying nine billion individual mobility units. Maybe they can do without housing or clean air....
And in aid of what? So we can rush around from place to place without ever having enough time to actually be anywhere, and the faster and further we scurry, the more we need to ignore the places we are passing through...
...We're running pretty damned fast, but I wonder if we have much idea of where to"
Wise words. Thanks for the link.
"My pessimism evaporates whenever afoot in the forest. Care for the woods and the vegetables. Slow down and enjoy the journey. And hope we can somehow avoid war."
Yes. Yes. It's a tragedy that we didn't avoid that war but I understand there will shortly be a retirement home opening for bitter, shrivelled neo-cons. So the vegetables are already being taken care of. ;-)
Peace to you too, and thanks for your great input during this election season.
David
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#177 thanks
all I can say is: Ha, glum hubris ! (anagram)
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80% (and others of the (Red) Squirrel Party),
Obama is indeed well, and has, being well-bred, bred well, and given satisfaction to his Baby Momma...
Peace and peanuts (turn the volume down - sorry!)
ed
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#232
OK, I'll bite and take the "are you really an American" test.
For myself we have the following:
Formal clothes - typically British (shoes, shirts, ties, some suits), Italian (some suits).
Casual clothes - mostly British, though some American shoes. Oh, and Patagonia fleeces.
Cars - Swedish, British, German.
Bicycles - German x 2, American, British x2, Canadian, plus a lot of Swiss / Japanese cycling clothes. Oh, and some Fox gear as well.
Motorbikes - Italian bike, Japanese helmet, Dutch leathers. I'd rather walk than ride a Harley.
Electricals - overwhelmingly Japanese, with a Finnish phone. iPod and Blackberry are the sole American representatives.
Watches - Mainly Swiss.
Food - I'd rather go without than digest fast food, if I'm honest. Though I do frequest Starbucks.
Wine - French, Spanish, Australian. Almost never American!
Music - this changes regularly, but I concede that The Killers are as American as it gets. That said, although Neil Young is from North America, he might take grave exception to the view that he's from the USA.......
Entertainment - House is my favourite TV show (though Hugh Laurie - Eton & Cambridge - is most definitely British).
So yes, of course there are many American influences in my British life, as I'm sure there are for most people. And I'd guess that the reverse isn't true of the average American.
But which is better - a culture which borrows the best bits of another, or one which is rather more insular and believes itself to be better than the rest?
FYI, it was Sir Tim Berners-Lee who developed the very system we're using to communicate at the moment, but surely that would imply that America follows Britain, would it not? Or perhaps Switzerland, where he developed the Web?
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PITA~Bread?
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Ed, thanks for the link in #201. Always good for a laugh. I liked the headline Unemployment Rate Jumps -
As thousands of pundits are laid off.
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Re:#198. I plead a fifth on that count, Guvna
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To start off thank you for keeping us informed I'm an independent so I want to hear all side. I was split McCain for President, Warner for Governor here in Virginia. Warner I know he was going to win all ready. My house is split as well my ex talked my 21 year old son into voting for Obama that didn't go over will. But heres the big thing, At my work I work at a hotel when I first got there I wasn't really welcome there they try to run me off but I stayed and fought them. The one thing that was upsetting them was that I had broken up the gang of all black. Mostly during the day I'm the only white there. They ran off the other white person. It's funny, they see me as white but I'm a mix of Native American and Spanish and I've let them know that. But still as of today they only see white everyone there was voting for Obama I was still undecided but they let me know. http://www.topix.net/forum/topstories/TDR1IK31VEG3794Q5/p27
But... But today the air was so thick you could cut it with a knife. As soon as I walked in to the building No one and I mean black looked me in the eye. They kelp their heads turned away from me didn't not even say hello. They didn't even ask who I voted for they all ready knew it. The whole day I went through being shun I never wanted to leave work as bad as I wanted to leave today I felt sick to my belly. At times I was trying hard to hold back the tears mostly I just worked by my self I felt it was best to stay away. In the group meeting we do nearly every morning again I was the only white person there the Asst. GM. wanted to have a victory dance for Obama with the ladies but she made a call it sound like to the GM. anyway she was told not too. She didn't like pleased, No body in that meeting looked at me afterwards. Nobody through out the day talked to me unless I talked to them. The day before it was all up beat. In the meeting the Asst. GM. was telling the Black ladies to watch out that some women (black) in her area had been attacked last night ( I'm thinking soooooo your saying the white's are attacking you know.) Like I wasn't even there in the room. And I'm the one stopping you from having your victory dance. Now..... get this some the of the guess in the hotel are black and white mainly the guys from Blackwater. Even with them things were quit like they know something was in the air. The white's would say good morning to me and smile no matter who they voted for. But when it came to the blacks...... not a one spoke to me I passed by one black three times he didn't even looked at me. And when I was cleaning windows (door) I looked behind me seeing a black couple coming I looked at them open the door for them. You know they looked at me but they looked at me down there noise at me and walked on. That was it I was ready to walk out them. I'm hoping in due time I can find a job and get the H out of there. Cause things are not the same my man.
What kills me is that I grew up with black I know the street. So I know when a black is saying ?US? he means us black people. When they say "WE" it's we black people. Where I'm from the blacks say one thing but mean another. I know all about the quits (sp?) making of blankets how they would tell a story but it was message for other black. It was they same way with their songs. You may have been sing about just a rabbit but you were sing about breaking a way or should I say running a way from the big boss. This has all been in the making for years. What kills me...... is that the Native American has never given up the land.
Being White, Native American, Spanish I really didn't like the way I was treated yesterday. I grow up with Black America and as of yesterday I am seen only as white. Then when the Blacks come into the Native world who think their Natives only come to try to get the money. So to me their always asking for a hand out. I have Natives now that are jumping in with fighting words very upset. That The natives were here first. Are we being looked over yes But we?ve learn not to cry over spilt milk. Should there have been a Native American in the White House First Yes. Why we didn't put Nighthorse in the White House who knows we believe in time. They ( the Blacks) Forget as long as we ( Natives) stay on the Rez. WE (Natives) still hold the Land. So all this is about Land and Power. It's not about what you did to me in the past.
I'm still waiting for a Native American King or Queen to show up.
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Obama intends to change politics forever, if indeed he sticks to a truly bi-partisan approach. Perhaps he will be the most "representative of the people". His appeal is similar to Clinton's in that respect - so perhaps he is the second black president, metaphorically speaking.
By the way, has anyone noticed haw Rahm Emanuel looks a lot like Justin Webb?
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Re: my post #236
Mea culpa.
The "he" in the first paragraph refers to TimothyR444.
All other "he's" refer to Mark Steyn.
"The end of the world as we know it" is a mis-quote. It should read "the end of the world as we've known it." They must be worried about REM going after them for copyright infringement or something.
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Honestly Justin, the name alone of this guy in Stateside english would have him persecuted all through his school years unless he was one tough nut (squirrel food) to crack.
The fox squirrel in Texas herds cattle on the side, "everything in Texas is big", and we also have squirrelope, cross bred with the Jackalope, (antelope-jack rabbit mix) runs at forty plus miles an hour.
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RE: #240
"FYI, it was Sir Tim Berners-Lee who developed the very system we're using to communicate at the moment, but surely that would imply that America follows Britain, would it not? Or perhaps Switzerland, where he developed the Web?"
Some would question that. Most people credit DARPA with the birth of the Internet. Their website certainly does... have a read!
"DARPA began the information revolution by creating the ARPANET that led to today's internet. The system began by interconnecting computers at four university research sites in the late 1960s. By 1972, it had grown to include 37 computers."
Whatever...
It's still a system of tubes, and Al Gore says he invented it. He won an Oscar, so I trust him. :P
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#245
"By the way, has anyone noticed how Rahm Emanual looks a lot like Justin Webb?"
And they've never been seen in the same room together......it must all be true about the conspiracy theories.......look out for black helicopters.......tinfoil helmets all round.....send out the call for SuperMooseMom and MaverickMan to save the day!
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Endorfin,
Or, "How to keep a 'wartime' economy (vigorous continual consumption) going in "peace" time...Lots of "stuff", eh?
I once had a 1945 Harley..., and later a Triumph.
Peace and consumption
ed
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To #263, Chronophobe,
Steyn is definative proof that extremists on one side are just as bad as extremists on the other.
*sigh*
Peace
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#248
DARPA may well have created the Internet, but T B-L invented the Web. All that HTTP stuff, it seems, sprang from his very British mind.
#250
Well, we ALL have lots of stuff, don't we? But I think we had more American goods some years back, when we all used Hoover, drove a Ford, or wore a Timex. And even Americans seems to be abandoning Dodge, GM, Ford, Cadillac et al. The Big Three are looking more and more like they'll become The Smaller Two, and eventually (unless they're quick) the Not Very Big At All One.
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The comparisons of the population of the US to Europe misses the profound differences in history , culture and economics of the two.
Just when someone from elsewhere thinks they have a fix of what being an American is , reveals another facet and surprises the world ( and we surprise ourselves)
With all due respect Justin , understanding America is hard enough for the natives as we are a diverse lot . My suggestion ? Come and visit the various states without an entourage and stay away from the self appointed talking heads and have Tom Bodette at Motel Six keep the light on for you .
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Sam 3
does beligium not have guns, how about france.
Just remember Britain is not Europe, that's very american of you.
;)
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there is the entrepeneurial Europe of Ireland.
there is a country thats catching up after years of a long drawn out war.
really if you want a model for america to follow, I suggest the Dutch.
a Pragmatic country of "freedoms" that taxes social problems rather than starting a "war" against them.
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14 ras fairy
He has been certified mad and for your future reference he is also a racist and a tad(understatement) obsessed with Israel being virtuous.
Happy O' day
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A good friend to the U.S and far better on the economy than Prodi
it was under him the trash started piling up in naples Berlesconi.
Who would be in prison if he did not get in.
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#240 Endorfin:
Motorbikes - Italian bike, Japanese helmet, Dutch leathers. I'd rather walk than ride a Harley.
Endorfin,
Italian bike, eh? Ducati, Moto Guzzi, or ?
I'm a Triumph man myself, riding an '07 "New" Bonneville (a true New World Order bike: built by Poles in England with parts from Thailand -- see, this is on topic!).
I have of late, however, been salivating over the new Guzzi Griso.
Vroom, vroom
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Can you tell me what happens if both the President elect and vice President elect happened to die at the same time before the inauguration. Is there new elections or does Bush stay in office,or is another Democrat nominated or does John Mcain take over.
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Jack,
No more than England is Britain...;-)
ed
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205. At 1:11pm on 06 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #178
Are you asking about PETA?
People for the Ethical Treatment of animals?
If so they are group opposed
To any exploitation of animals:
for food
entertainment
medical research
etc.
They compare the caging of animals to the Holocost
------------------------
and you equated Obama to the nazi's
so are you a member of peta.
PS americans treat animals as if it is them they that are the "animals"
in our cunty thousands of dogs put down every years so "pet stores" can have a fresh looking puppy in the window"
Good on peta.
venison is tasty
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32 sam . seems he is saying that the only way out of the poverty in america that is sure is to join up.
And i have met quite a few here in Oregon who did just that for just those reasons.
Have a smoke.
commmon you know u want it.
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81 and a convicted felon.
now are all felons allowed to vote?
Still alaska brought us Palin so what do we expect.
Seasonal affected disorder must be in place whenever they have elections.
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vcm1967a,
You need to distinguish between the internet - which DARPA developed - and the web - which Berners-Lee developed at CERN. If you're old enough to have used the pre-web internet, you'll know how important that distinction is!
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65
us foreign born yanks have to dream of America, Americans live in america.
That is why you should ask an immigrant what is the American dream.
it was a dream created by new comers, not the stayed and old.
That is why it is so hard for americans to understand their own dream.
Not the dreams of americans
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260 too true.
me I'm a Brit born in Malaysia. so I have fun 'cuase i'm none.
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#157. British-ish: "I hate the Guardian Style Guide, which would have us writing the ambiguous 'foreign secretary' instead of 'Foreign Secretary'."
Amen to that! I suppose it's meant to be all in the name of equality and lack of deference which that publication espouses.
With regard to m-dashes, since I was not familiar with the printing term (in school it was simply a 'dash') I Googled it to see if there's a solution. You might want to look here to see if it helps. As for squiggly lines, a Mac doesn't squiggle.
#206. Ed Iglehart: "David (123), But are you proud or ashamed?"
Neither - I've always considered being proud or boastful a character flaw. I was merely demonstrating that without American inventiveness life in Europe would be rather different - and I forgot to add to my short list the concept of mass production originated by Henry Ford. Now where would industry be without that!
BTW, you might answer British-ish with regard to m-dashes.
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Ed Inglehart@234,
Yes that is me saying it, and I say it of Christianity, Judaism and Hinduism as well. Atheism isn't a belief system, any more than aleprachaunism or aghostism is: it's just a lack of belief in any god.
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Meanwhile....
To keep us cheerful ;-)
Peace and barter
ed
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#258
MV Agusta - one of the modern ones. Lots of fun, but just hilarious trying to get spare parts...........
As a day-to-day bike I can safely say it's appalling, as pretty much all Italian bikes are.
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#4 Yes, I agree that the working class in Europe tend,
but it is only a tendency, there are many exceptions,
to vote for centre-left or left-wing parties, whereas
just about everyone in the US vote conservative. Even
the Democrats are conservative from the European
point of view.
The change that Obama stands for is not a defining
change it seems to me. After all, it will still be capitalism, with exploitation of the working class (the middle class in the US are the working class in my
opinion---after all, they all have to work. So the world
will still have rich and poor, well-shod and deprived.
The biggest problem facing the US working class is the
fact that so many jobs have been transferred to China
and India. Yes, there are jobs, but not paying as well
and not providing as clear a career path. How one gets to the upper echelons a company without the
base jobs, I do not know. The management can
outsource jobs, but it then prevents people from
coming to management via the company.
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Jack,
And most of those puppies are going to live better and eat better than half the world's children...Peace and full bellies
ed
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RE: #264
"vcm1967a,
You need to distinguish between the internet - which DARPA developed - and the web - which Berners-Lee developed at CERN. If you're old enough to have used the pre-web internet, you'll know how important that distinction is!"
I'm aware of the distinction, and I in no way meant to disparage the immense contributions of Sir Tim Berners-Lee...
I just used the difference as a catalyst to throw in that Sen. Ted Stevens(another oxygen thief, and soon-to-be convict from Alaska) nugget of wisdom about the "tube-like" nature of the "Interweb".
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'morphing into' - not sure about that phrasing. Europe's been involved in US politics and culture from the gitgo - US morphed from Europe. National boundaries are disintegrating which is natural because the physical boundaries are disappearing and limitations on communications are disappearing - money, people, communications, goods travel fast and easily - multi-national bank collapse has proved this lack of boundaries
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Headline news,... On to the economy,...
'O'BAMA mania spreds to the Market.
....dateline news... just realized...
Following the policies of the next president,.. monies are being taken from the rich in the marketplace to be redistributed to the "New" poor.
.... headline ... Palin Spent more than thought .... proof that Republicans can't add ......
...Neman Marcus stocks tumble.......
New 'Tax' relief is encouaged in these time of rising hiden taxes in forms of price increases as the "new taxed rich" pass off the cost of said taxes by hiding the tax in price increases....
....Todd Palin wants to move to Texas and secede from Union.....
reality check,.. I am having to seek funding from public sources for professional mental health since the election,.. I just can't wrap my head into this choice for president,... nor pay for it,... I have oba~mania, a tempature taken at DOW Market value.. it is striking in increasing numbers as we republicans find we believe our own truth... we can now go on the dole as the Messiah put the task on his people,.. take my 401k,.. I don't deserve it even though I worked and ,... saved,.. for it,..
shhhh, I'm huntin' wabbits,.... he he
saddnes,.. huh yosemite sam
:^)
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#251 SaintOne:
Steyn is definative proof that extremists on one side are just as bad as extremists on the other.
===================
I would almost agree. I would argue, though, that Steyn does have a quirky sense of humour which saves him from the worst kind of shrillness.
Reading Steyn, I find myself constantly exclaiming "bah," "silly," etc., but only as a precursor to the desire to engage it on the basis of rational argument.
Well, OK, I'm being generous. Sometimes it is just toxic. For me, the borderline between provocative and controversial expression and vile propaganda is most often drawn when a hyper-developed sense of self righteous victimization takes hold in a discourse.
This I sometimes see from both left and right, and all religious faiths and denominations.
Yours,
A Cheerful Canadian Pinko
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272.wait i see dougs writing in, doug I know you and plenty in texas care for animals.
back to 272
most probably have more outfits than many have meals in a year.
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Have fun all
Doug hide the family jewels they will be after them to.
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David,
Not exactly...For more on Taylorism, see this. Henry Ford knew a "good thing" when he saw it Peace and swings and roundabouts
ed
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Fraidy,
Until the oil runs out...Meeeeooooowwwww!...Boing!
Peace and Providence
ed
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Wheeeee!
But can the server take the strain?
Peace and patience
ed
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164: "I thought it would confuse the issue, because then we'd have to bring in the wars between the Indian tribes of South America at about the same period, and I'm pretty vague about them."
This is the second reference to S. America being the same continent as N. America. If you want to lump them together should we include Africa with Europe?
I'm not taking sides in this debate on civil wars but North and South America are not the same continent.
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279. Ed Iglehart wrote:
David,
"and I forgot to add to my short list the concept of mass production originated by Henry Ford. "
Not exactly...
"Studying other industries, Ford borrowed the concept of a moving line from the meat packers in Chicago who also exposed him to the concept of division of labor"
I refer my honourable friends to Adam Smith, the back of the new(ish) English 20-pound note and the engraving of the pin factory.
(I'm fascinated by that picture. So is a French friend of mine. She always spends the older ones first.)
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#279. Ed Iglehart: "and I forgot to add to my short list the concept of mass production originated by Henry Ford. "
Not exactly...
But he is generally credited for introducing it - and in any case, it's all American, which was the central point. Rather that writing "concept" I should probably have written "implementation".
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261. At 5:04pm on 06 Nov 2008, jacksforge wrote:
205. At 1:11pm on 06 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #178
Are you asking about PETA?
People for the Ethical Treatment of animals?
If so they are group opposed
To any exploitation of animals:
for food
entertainment
medical research
etc.
They compare the caging of animals to the Holocost
------------------------
and you equated Obama to the nazi's
That's another lie, I've equated Islamic facists like Hezbollah to Nazis.
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ref #123 and others
I think if you are a true capaatilists and savvy consume you will go for the best product value.
Thus I have not bought a car produced by an American owned company. ( Ioppose the bailout)
I personaly think American reds are vastly underated.
Our computer software is still the best.
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275, for DougTexan, and others similarly afflicted:
All has been made clear(ish) by the redoubtable Moose Guvernator.
(I've been suffering serious withdrawal symptoms myself, she's been so quiet.)
In her interview (on the BBC site) coming off the plane in Alaska, she twice spoke of "the space-time I spent with Senator McCain."
I had my suspicions all along. She has obviously been (looks over shoulder nervously and whispers) abducted by aliens.
How much do those tinfoil hats with the propellors cost at Nieman Marcus, exactly?
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#144
Ish,
That's easy. Hold primaries and make the poor guys sit in cafes across Europe and hold town meetings.
It just may work . . . .
Elector Sam
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#254,
Hi Jack,
Yes they do for sport and farmers. They restrict any type of auto or semi auto weapon other than a shotgun though.
Euro Sam
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#203
Nat,
Why not? Any of the candidates have a cute spouse?
Interested Sam
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#222
Amen to that.
Software Sam
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Atheism is indeed the absence of a belief in a god, rather than the belief in an absence of a god.
However I don't think there is any comparison between the belief in an absence of a god and the belief of the existence of a god. It's all about the probabilities.
If you believe in a god, you believe in a supernatural being who cannot be seen or measured or experienced outside an individual's mind, but can see and hear everything, including thoughts. It created the entire universe from nothing and communicates very obliquely, and never, ever, ever leaves any evidence of its existence... at least not for several thousand years. That's a pretty complex theory, produced from zero, or at best very ancient and dubious evidence. You have difficulty explaining how such a being is possible, where it came from, how it is so powerful, how it can read thoughts... everything about this being is inexplicable.
If you don't believe in a god, you simply believe that explanation is not only extremely unlikely, but actually wrong. There is a leap of faith there, but only a tiny one. It's the same leap of faith involved in being convinced a frog won't suddenly appear on your desk and start singing "Bohemian Rhapsody" in a falsetto voice. It is very unlikely such a thing might happen, but I would go so far as to say I actually believe (know) that it won't.
It still leaves things unexplained, but not half so much.
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re. 7. Dame_Maggie_Thatcher:
"No more Jaguars or Volvos or IKEA for us."
Ikea will do just fine. Their prices are really very good. Just bought one of their couches.
And, personally, I have no interest in Jaguars or Volvos anyway. Conspicuous consumption. Very Bush-league.
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I find this discussion of whether America is morphing into Europe conducted largely by Americans on a BBC blog dedicated to news from the US rather amusing.
Who is morphing into whom?
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285. and you equated Obama to the nazi's
That's another lie, I've equated Islamic facists like Hezbollah to Nazis."
Which just shows how despicable your views are.
But tell us genius can you point out where Hitler or Mussolini or Franco urged their followers to take up a semitic religion?
And can you point out where Hezbollah or hamas or Islam claim human beings are divided into rigid "races", defined by spurious ideas of blood heritage.
Before insulting the victims of Auschwitz, Sobibor etc perhaps you might like to learn something.
If you read Primo Levi for exmaple you will find that the Auschwitz guards were nice white caucasians - they were not moslems from Palestine.
f
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re. 259. kinraddie:
In that case, Nancy Pelosi gets the job. She, as Speaker of the House of Representatives, is next in line after the Vice President. Since she's not likely to be voted out of her job by the Democrats in the House before or after Obama is sworn in, she would be be next in line both before and after inauguration day.
Another reason for conservatives to pray for the health of both Obama and Biden :-)
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re. 245. lefthawk:
"By the way, has anyone noticed haw Rahm Emanuel looks a lot like Justin Webb?"
Count his fingers. Emanuel lost one as a teenager. That will be the giveaway.
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Stephen,
The former is properly called agnosticism and the latter atheism. The latter is a "belief system" and, as noted, is internally inconsistent because of the impossibility of proving a negative.Peace and humility
ed
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Stephen,
It's also a moderately detailed description of what the describer doesn't believe, and may not be even faintly like how many "believers" of many faiths may or may not believe. It is an archetypical "straw man", and you should be ashamed.Peace and respect for others
ed
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re. 187. endorfin:
#177
"Is he always this .... I struggle for the right word, but the only one that comes to mind is ....vile."
The other word that comes to mind is "idiot".
It's a cult. There's no other explanation.
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Europe is trying to morph into America. It will never work. Europe doesn't have what it takes. They don't even understand what America is actually about. BBC's coverage of the election process including the blogs and the trips shows that even they just don't get it. The attempt to create a United States of Europe looks increasingly like a European Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The election of the first African American President of the United States signifies that America is freeing itself from one of the last shackles in inherited from its ancient European past. It's not about money or military power or Hollywood movies or music, it's about a fundimental difference between the way Europeans and Americans look at life.
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re. 127. jaxpoole:
"When resident in the usa, ..."
Where you living, Mississippi?
Doesn't sound like my neck of the woods.
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re. 133. paul939:
"Though here in India, American accents are adopted by call centres. Guess you can't avoid it."
Well, they may think they have adopted American accents, but nobody in America is under that impression. "Hello, my name is Bob." in that very distinctive (and attractive) accent. No, I don't think so.
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re. 135. SamTyler1969:
What did you do, drink the whole bottle?
I had two glasses and corked the rest for tonight.
Temperate Tim
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America is derived from Aristotle, Averroes, and Oxford University, and Elizabethan English, Aristotle and the Natural Law, and French Calvinist Scholarship, and the Jacques Le Moyne's Art and Testimony to The American Indian Democracy. America was borne in the late 1500's at Fort Caroline, Jacksonville-Duval County Florida, the Worlds largest City in Territorial Extant. America was borne out of LeMoyne's and Thomas Jefferson's, and Abraham Lincoln's Good News. The former Great Britain now speaks Georgian English, and has gone off the Silver Standard. George III tried to stomp out Oxford Scholasticism, and advised South Carolina's ambassador and Senator, Charles Pinckney, America's Greatest Traitor, to tell his fellow Slavers to do the same. They re-founded Harvard and Yale, and Harvard Case Law, intended to protect Slavery and the Rich, and so brought in the Neo-Platonist Prussian, Emmanuel Kant's followers to do just that; their reasoning was, if Kant's followers could justify the Very Ugly Prussian Bureaucratized Feudal Military Dictatorship, fore runner of Imperial and Nazi Germany, then Kant could justify their Very Ugly, but Very Profitable Institution. And the Northern Slavers were rewarded, when John C. Calhoun studied Emmanuel Kant at Yale, and went home to South Carolina, and Slandered Blacks as Emmanuel Kant's Radical Evil, and stated that they must be kept enslaved forever to prevent greater evil. The President of Lousiana State Seminary and Military Academy, killed 99% of Calhoun-Kant's Southern Followers, and the Northern Remnant Plagarized Charles Darwin's ""The Origin of Species,"" for his name, to rename Calhoun-Kant's Evil Neo-Platonism, Social Darwinism. But Charles Darwin stated that he had learned more from Old Aristotle, than any other of his predessors; Aristotle is the Only Alternative to Neo-:Platonism. The Anti-Social Social Darwinists, changed the name, and expanded it to include all less than super rich, of all races, and declared John D. Rockefeller Sr., their Ideal Social Darwinist Man. John D. Rockefeller tried to live up to their idealization. He financed the John Dewey System of Education based on Bullying and Cultural Deprivation of such Great Treasures of Mankind, as Phonetics. Rockefeller Money built the Harvard Graduate School of Education, devoted exclusively to John Dewey's System of Bullying and Cultural Deprivation. The Rockefeller Fortune bought up all US Politicians of the Day. in order to impose the John Dewey System on every state and Territory, Nation wide, and very easily succeeded. Aristotlle declares that the Great Legislator's First Priority must be What System of Education of the Young is to be followed.
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Pierce,
Please try a few paragraph breaks.
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#306. Peirce77777; #307. Ed Iglehart: "Please try a few paragraph breaks."
And fewer, far fewer, upper-case letters. I read the post and haven't a clue what the point is.
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308, David_Cunard wrote:
"I read the post and haven't a clue what the point is."
I have consulted the intellectual wing of the Squirrel Party, and they think it means:
"Back to Aristotle! Forget all other philosophers! (They have ruined America.) And all will be well."
Beyond that, however, opinion is divided. Some think it represents the NeoCon/End of History "everything that came out of neo-Platonism in the Renaissance and then the Enlightenment -- i.e. from Europe -- is un-American and has weakened American (white/white 4,000 year-old Christianity) society."
Others are just totally mystified and just mutter: "A little knowledge . . ."
Some reckon they should be able to get fat research grants from American foundations to study this that should keep them comfortably in nuts for years and years . . .
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160. At 11:31am on 06 Nov 2008, Nick-Gotts wrote:
"a European who is snobby and claims to know all 300,000 million Americans ladycm
Wow! 300,000,000,000 of you! No wonder you use such a large share of the Earth's resources! The rest of us total less than 7,000,000,000".
Yah too late, I have already had someone embarrass me on that one. Oh well...
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Just on the off-chance anyone has a look in here, Sarah Palin went out with a bang, not a whimper, in England at least, on bonfire night:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/02/palin.effigy.burn/index.html#cnnSTCText
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Nowhere else to post this:
"Mr. Obama . . .has declined to attend the president?s global economic summit meeting on Nov. 15." [NYT]
Ah. Thought so. His advisers want to make sure dubbyah gets all the blame. Doesn't matter how important it might be for the world as a whole. Domestic politics as usual, then.
Had a feeling it might be. Could be the rest of the world's 'honeymoon' with the Obama presidency could be very very short indeed. They're already running out of patience.
Unless he meets the other leaders away from George Bush . . .if he doesn't, charisma alone won't undo the damage that's been done to the USA's reputation or standing.
Ah well, first disappointment of a great many, I fear.
And I heard a reporter from USA today say Emanuel has "a foul mouth, worse than my marine corps instructor." That'll really endear the G20 staff to Obama, I can tell you, if they come across him.
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285, ubermensch.
"I've equated Islamic facists like Hezbollah to Nazis."
Wow, there seem to be an awful lot of Nazis around. I seems to me I once suggested you were one.
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#312, British-ish,
I'm not particularly disappointed by that; if it was me I'd feel it was inappropriate to be there. Bush was elected to serve a term; let him serve it and hand over at the appointed time. I don't know how these things are done but if I was Bush and I wanted Obama to come, I'd make very sure that I made the invitation more than a default protocol thing.
BTW, re my 'Islamic immigration' - quite right, a very clumsy term, I'll wear that. Islam being so widespread, a geographic descriptor wasn't an option, but "Muslim immigrants" would have been much more obvious. No 'you people'-ishness intended.
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Limbaugh: dear Lord, I'd heard of him but never realised it was quite that bad.
I tried to read that transcript too; failed, was wincing too hard.
Somebody get him a prescription...
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british-ish, I was referring to Europe as a whole being a rough analogy to the USA. Your countries are the size of our states, and you have a lot of variety inherent in Europe. However, you haven't gone 200 years without getting into multiple fights with each other, but we in the USA have had all of ONE civil war. That was the analogy, since nowhere else in the world is there anything like the USA. The UK is not a valid comparison, since British culture dominates your island far more thoroughly than "American" culture dominates this country. Basically, we are almost all recent immigrants (save the Native Americans) who get along with each other despite having radically differing cultures, religions etc.
Actually 204, the vast majority of us don't care if you're an atheist either. Are you a decent person? If so we can work with that. If you run about declaring you are an atheist then we WILL look at you funny. It's only the weirdoes that seem to care about atheism. There is this thing called the separation of Church and State, which also applies to the lack of religion.
However, the Republicans have been catering to the Christian Right, which means this line is being blurred whenever possible. So, you get a pro-life party.
152 Funny thing is, the Republicans are NOT conservatives in any respect, really. They used to be so decades ago, but now they are in for big military, big corporations, the Upper Class, and the Christian religious right. These people are passionate and have money, but only represent a tiny portion of the population. For a time, the RNC used this money to get themselves reelected, then catered to their selective constituents. Ultimately, the RNC is only conservative when it comes to regulating big business, because without regulation the poor guy gets shafted while the corporation gets richer. Follow the money if you want to know where the RNC looks to support. The RNC has no problem intruding when it comes to all other subjects, including abortion, sex ed, you name it.
This led the country into economic disaster, which spread to the rest of the world(we are collectively sorry about that, we made a huge mistake in electing that man AND his party!). Time and again, the RNC poked our military into being global police for economic interests, like oil (Kuwait, Iraq anyone? Bush wanted an OPEC free source of oil to be friendly, but didn't bother to notice that Iraq was composed of feuding tribes held in check by mutual fear of Hussein).
Bush jr and Sr are morons, intruding in things they shouldn't have messed with in the first place.
The Democrats are MUCH better at domestic policy than foreign, and they seem to subscribe to the Monroe Doctrine. That is, the world leaves N and S America alone, and we leave the world alone. We have enough problems on our collective USA plate just fixing our own country, how the hell do you expect us to fix yours?
The Democrats and Obama will do the minimum necessary where the rest of the world is concerned, both because you complain when we interfere and because we need to fix ourselves after Bush's (and the Republicans, since they followed the White House lock-step)terrible rule.
Isn't this what the world wanted? USA stay out of our backyard? That's what we hear coming from you through your media.
You just got what you wished for. We'll back off, just as you asked. Most of us didn't like the idea of jumping into situations that didn't involve us in the first place, at least that's the attitude of everyone BUT the Republicans. I voted Democrat, so I am happy with this turn of events. I do hope they live up to their reputation of being great at domestic/economic policy, otherwise both we and your global economies are in deep dooky. I'm just hoping Iran and N Korea don't continue to pick fights with us. We really DON'T want to continue Bush's policies!
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jabber_jabber in what world do you live in or in denial of?
I live next to the largest infantry training center in the world and it is expanding to twice the size of it's personnel as well are the military reserve bases all over this country. The military advertisements during football games and at prime time televisions peaks dominate the majority of commercials. Look around and see who can afford to have babies and homes more so than the majority of other occupations. If it isn't geared for war and for civil enforcement it's on the downside!
This terrorist scare is just the creation and furthering of a actual police state. The NSA are criminally attacking computers, telephone lines, mail, checking accounts and are intimidating aware individuals and abusing citizens that are not into repeating dialog put in their mouths nor willing to do what they know is wrong.
Look at the fool that was put into office, President Bush the people did not elect him. His antics resemble the comedian Tommy Smothers of the Smothers Brothers. Like him many other elected offices have been appointed. (errors in the ballots too.)
A economic system always suffers when the currency is devalued and the funds of the people are turned over to national security. As it can be seen the Defense Department is shoring up it's self against any civilian branch of government power. That is why the NSA was implemented. You can hide a lot of corruption in the disguise of well wishes if you never get to hear the other side of the coin.
The media constantly bombards the public with what the government what them to say. That is the major of the mass media, television news, newspapers.. That brought up and communicated in every assembly of the people. With so much propagated that one must answer and not say or question, it is delusional to say anything other than that what has here been said.
This is just the tip of the Ice Burg because this is spoon fed. Any more information about the real world and the crimes against humanity I am afraid much more of the truth just can't be handled.
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Always enjoy coming here to read peoples fumblings with the concept of 'left and right'...
So far I've gathered that Obama's policies will lie somewhere between Karl Marx and Margret Thatcher. Thanks for that.
I think Fukuyama's comment that Americans vote democrat in times of economic hardship, and Republican in times of prosperity is really interesting. I think Americas rather uniquely right wing sociological position is down to the Republicans ability to seccessfully tie the idea of the American dream to small low tax governments. Personally I find this completely bogus; however, I can see how it is an easier stunt to pull in times of economic prosperity.
It would have been interesting to hae heard Justin ask Fukuyama something like 'to what extent he felt the economic contractions that lead to a democrat getting elected were being caused by the encumbant Republicans?'
But alas... Justin merely mumbles something about religion.
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"The former is properly called agnosticism and the latter atheism. The latter is a "belief system" and, as noted, is internally inconsistent because of the impossibility of proving a negative." - Ed Inglehart
You don't know what you are talking about. Agnosticism is the belief that we cannot know with certainty whether there is a god or not. In that sense, I am an agnostic. I am also an atheist, because I do not believe in any god, because of the complete lack of any reason to do so, just as I don't believe in ghosts or leprachauns. I do not claim, nor do any atheists I know of, that it can be proved there is no god.
Incidentally, it is false to say you cannot prove a negative, at least in the everyday sense of "prove". If I assert that there are no elephants in my fridge, I can prove it by opening the fridge and showing that there are indeed no elephants there. We can't do this in the case of gods, because there could be an omnipotent god which wants to conceal its existence. Being omnipotent, it would succeed.
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"The attempt to create a United States of Europe looks increasingly like a European Union of Soviet Socialist Republics." - MAII
Only to the deranged.
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ladycm@310,
Yes, sorry, my comment was redundant - I tend to read through the thread and respond to comments as soon as I get to them.
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"Actually 204, the vast majority of us don't care if you're an atheist either. Are you a decent person? If so we can work with that. If you run about declaring you are an atheist then we WILL look at you funny. It's only the weirdoes that seem to care about atheism." - Jeebers276
You really don't see that your first sentence is contradicted by the rest, do you? To summarise "You can be an atheist so long as you keep quiet about it." Are Christians expected to keep quiet about their Christianity in the USA?
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"There is this thing called the separation of Church and State" - Jeebers276
Right. That's why the Pledge of Allegiance now contains the words "One Nation Under god", and the currency bears the inscription "In God We Trust".
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Nick,
AndI'm certainly in no position nor inclined to deny the possibility of the existence of powers greater than humanity. In fact, I'm inclined to accept that humanity is as incapable of comprehending (completely understanding) Reality as coffee is of comprehending the cup which contains it.It seems we may be on a humpty Dumpty situation here: "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone, "It means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
Peace and Humility
ed
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Humans have a brain, senses, and a degree of consciousness (so far as we can tell the highest degree of consciousness yet discovered). Humans don't know everything, sure, but they know enough to ask questions about everything
Coffee lacks a brain, senses and any consciousness at all, so coffee is incapable of comprehending anything.
Belief and knowledge is exactly the same thing from the point of view of the believer, objectively the only difference is belief can be mistaken. Agnostics don't believe or know either position to be true, they keep their options open. Deists/theists believe there is a god (they think they know but are mistaken) and atheists believe/know there is no god. It really isn't so complicated.
As for the "straw man" argument I accept not every element is a requirement for the existence of a god. At the minimum the only thing a god is required to do is exist (why would anyone believe in gods that they admit don't exist?). But a god that didn't create anything, doesn't listen to us, has no power and no knowledge seems so pointless and redundant that one wonders why it is worth the effort in believing in such a thing at all! The more relevant a god becomes, the more powers and knowledge and abilities he has, the more improbable his existence (although even the minimum god is as good as impossible).
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Stephen,
(by humans) Please, if possible, look out Gregory Bateson's thoughts on the limits of consciousness:And finally, Snide and opinionated.Peace and humility
ed
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Ed Inglehart@324,
I note that your dictionary definitions of atheism do not include the one you were so eager to put forward - the claim that the non-existence of gods can be proved. On this basis you claimed, quite falsely, that atheism is "internally inconsistent". I don't actually see a great deal of humility in misrepresenting others' beliefs.
"I'm certainly in no position nor inclined to deny the possibility of the existence of powers greater than humanity."
I agree. Given that the universe is some 13.7 billion years old according to current evidence, and probably contains quadrillions of planets on which life could develop, I think it very likely indeed that such powers exist.
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Nick,
I was referring to the essence of the first definition above, "the affirmation of the nonexistence of gods," and this is the reason I asserted that (such) atheism is a "belief system".Might "such powers" not be regarded as Gods? Or might not "life" be?Peace and (disputed) humility
ed
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Well if atheism is a "belief-system", so are aghostism and aleprachaunism. I do "affirm the nonexistence" of all these supposed entities, but do not cliam to prove they don't exist, and am willing to change my mind if good evidence is presented.
There are atheistic belief-systems (Marxism, Ayn Rand's ludicrously misnamed - and indeed ludicrous - "Objectivism", for example), but mere disbelief in gods is not a "system".
"Might "such powers" not be regarded as Gods? Or might not "life" be?" - Ed Inglehart
Reminds me of the question attributed to Abraham Lincoln:
"How many legs does a dog have, if you call its tail a leg?"
The answer is, of course, four. Calling the tail a leg doesn't make it one.
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Nick,
Who he?Peace and observation
ed
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Ed@330,
Apologies - Nick Gnotts
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285. At 7:56pm on 06 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
be honest with yourself for once, even if you cant be honest with anyone else.
You DID refer to Obama as a nazi. you a likened him to hitler at the start of his rise to power,(though you got the year way wrong I seem to remember.) you said the imagery was like that of nazi germany which you said would be appropriate for him.
Most of which got struck for being racist.
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#326
As Doublas Adams clearly stated:
'Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much... the wheel, New York, wars, and so on, whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely the dolphins believed themselves to be more intelligent than man for precisely the same reasons.'
Lord help us, we're not that bright.
Hitchhiker Sam
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#269
Thanks for that Ed,
Where did I put my Eurostar timetable? Think I need a smoke now.
Stoner Sam
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#305
Tim,
It would have been rude not to. Then there was lunch on the Champs Elysee. Then a little afternoon drinkie. Then I was thrown out of Napolean's Tomb for asking why Waterloo wasn't on his list of battles and why the lid was broken.
Then dinner (a wondrful little Chateauneuf). Then bed.
Fully recovered some time this afternoon.
Fit Sam
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re. 315. Blimmineck wrote:
"Limbaugh:
Somebody get him a prescription..."
Since you hadn't heard of him before this, you didn't know. He had an addiction to prescription drugs--got someone to issue prescriptions to feed his addiction. It was a bit of a scandal when it became public, because this is a man who had pontificated on the air about people who use illegal drugs. I suppose he thought they should have gotten prescriptions instead.
So your comment was unintentionally quite funny.
The man is really quite poisonous. And totally uninformed about the facts on any given topic.
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#325
Stephen,
On the God thing?
Man is she going to be p!ssed when she gets hold of you. For Her sake don't say anything about minorities or lesbians.
Theist Sam
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334 Eugene is just up the am trak
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Imfact it is 9;20 now which means 4;20 somewhere so BRB.
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RE: #317
"I live next to the largest infantry training center in the world and it is expanding to twice the size of it's personnel as well are the military reserve bases all over this country."
Ah... Ft. Benning, Ga. You can thank the Base Closure idiots for moving the Armor School to Ft. Benning and changing its' name to "The Maneuver Center Of Excellence". I wonder who thought up that gem.
FTBGA is already way too crowded as it is. The testosterone levels are way too high, and it will bring nothing but misery to the Columbus metro area.
Well, it's already a bit miserable now.
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Ed, however you measure consciousness, whatever the qualitative limitations of human consciousness, it's the best we know of and immeasurably better than that of a cup of coffee!
If there is existentialist coffee out there, its consciousness exists on another plane of reality from ours, is immeasurable and undetectable. Perhaps you should worship it?
(I'm tempted to go on about the improbability of life elsewhere but I fear we've already strayed way beyond what even the smartest cups of coffee would consider topical...)
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Stephen,
You miss the point:
The chance of the coffee comprehending the cup is (as you note) ZERO, as is the chance of humans comprehending the Universe.
Peace and humility
ed
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335. SamTyler1969 wrote:
"Then I was thrown out of Napolean's Tomb for asking why Waterloo wasn't on his list of battles and why the lid was broken."
He's not been trying to escape again, has he?
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"The chance of the coffee comprehending the cup is (as you note) ZERO, as is the chance of humans comprehending the Universe." - Ed Iglehart
What makes you so sure of that?
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Nick,
Logic, pure and simple, and I refer you to Gregory Bateson above.For a deeper understanding of the problem I commend Bateson's "Steps to an Ecology of Mind".
Peace and good reading lists
ed
"The Devil rides on the backs of the certain."
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RE: #328
"Might "such powers" not be regarded as Gods? Or might not "life" be?"
Sounds like a time for quoting Clarke's Third Law!
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Maybe some superintelligence, god-like or not, is watching the silly little half-monkeys with amusement.
Anything is possible.
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#343
Ish,
I checked. The bugger is still dead.
Coroner Sam
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Ed Inglehart@345,
"Simple logic" is just a cop-out. Human understanding is not limited by the capacity of the single human mind. Bateson is interesting, but extremely outdated.
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#292, 299 etc. My Larger Oxford English Dictionary, the ultimate arbiter of the meaning of words (not Wikipedia!) defines Agnostic as One who holds that the existence of anything beyond and behind material phenomena is unknown and, so far as can be judged, unknowable, and especially that a First Cause and an unseen world are subjects of which we know nothing.
Atheist: One who denies or disbelieves the existence of a God.
That should settle it!
#346. vcm1967a: "Might "such powers" not be regarded as Gods? Or might not "life" be?"
"Sounds like a time for quoting Clarke's Third Law!"
Or perhaps his fourth: "For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert."?
#347. SamTyler1969: "Ish, I checked. The bugger is still dead."
Ah, but is is really Napoleon? No DNA tests have been permitted to determine who is actually there.
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Your quote from Bateson goes no way whatever toward establishing your claim. It is not necessary for every detail of the universe to be held in a single consciousness for humans to comprehend (in the sense of understand) the universe.
Note that I am not saying this is possible. I am saying we do not know whether it is possible.
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Nick, et. al.,
How can that which is contained comprehend that which contains?
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Nick,
Utter tosh! Is Aristotle "outdated"? Plato? Hesiod?Peace and eternal truths
ed
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Nick Gotts
I remember a friend of mine that told me and another friend that he was gay. When we said we didn't care one way or another, he continually insisted that it did. The both of us scratched our heads, for although we are heterosexual by nature, his homosexuality didn't make him any less than a respected human being to us, and we couldn't figure out why his sexuality had anything to do with being friends.
It's the same way with atheism here. Telling us this seems kinda immaterial to what kind of person you are, just like continually insisting that you are a believer of whatever religion when the subject of the conversation has nothing to do with religion.
We really don't care what religion or lack of religion you have, and many of us really couldn't care less what your sexual persuasion is either. As long as you seem friendly and are trustworthy, we are fine with you, whoever you are and whatever you look like.
It seems like being an atheist is very important to you, that's nice, but that doesn't define your identity, does it? Are you a good person? Can we have a conversation without quarrel? If so, great! We'd love to have you here in the USA, if that's what you want.
Europeans seem not to understand Americans at all sometimes. You keep insisting that things like religion, skin color, accents etc are so very important, which just confuses the hell out of the USA. This is why we elected Obama 8 years after electing Bush. Obama convinced us that he was trustworthy, so we are hoping that our judgment was right this time around.
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353:
"Europeans seem not to understand Americans at all sometimes. You keep insisting that things like religion, skin color, accents etc are so very important, which just confuses the hell out of the USA. This is why we elected Obama 8 years after electing Bush."
After reading so many of the posts about this election, how can anyone say at least three of those four are not important to people in the USA? (Even the fourth, viz. Sarah Palin; even Obama, sounding 'Harvard'?) Wekeep insisting?
But I discovered this in that link to the Bateson thing:
"Neurosis is the inability to tolerate ambiguity."
- Sigmund Freud
Now that explains something about some posters over the last week or so, doesn't it? Wish I'd come across that before. Might come in handy, though yet.
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dj`979:
"The USA used to be popular around here, used to set trends etc., but not anymore."
And THIS is a fascinating topic: the explosion of anti-Americanism.
The development of bigotry and prejudice is always a terrible thing, but in Europe we have the weird phenomena of opposition to Americans combined with claims of love and peace.
So, the people who take the greatest pleasure in despising Americans are also those who claim to love the world and promote world peace.
It is a weird mix, but mots people need to have an enemy - and Americans provide that now for many Europeans.
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Nick Gotts:
"They tend to vote Democrat. Of course, this still is pretty conservative in European terms, but it's the most left-wing viable option available to them."
No quite wrong. They have been voting GOP since Ronald Reagan.
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cdnstar:
"One of the fundamental difference between the USA and Europe is that cultures of Europe are established and they are complex. On the other hand, the American culture is one that is not established and it is always changing. It is definitely not complex. Therefore the people do not have a set value system. Thats why a country that elected Bush 8 years ago can simply turnaround and elect Obama today. USA was built on this culture of the unsettled immigrant, who simply wanting to get away from the generationally ingrained attitudes of the country that he has come from. Every immigrant who came to the US has done this. Thats why the working class in the US vote for conservatives while the European working class vote liberals."
Comments like this fascinate me.
They are far more profoundly offensive than mere insults. There are so many false assumptions - and then so many conclusions drawn from those false assumptions - that it is difficult to know where to begin.
Trule, anti-Americanism is a fascinating subject.
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tenzone86:
"I think Americas rather uniquely right wing sociological position is down to the Republicans ability to seccessfully tie the idea of the American dream to small low tax governments. Personally I find this completely bogus; however, I can see how it is an easier stunt to pull in times of economic prosperity."
I find this comment very amusing.
The connection of small, low tax government and prosperity is obvious.
It's not at al difficult to figure it out. Just think...not difficult...just use the brain...
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#353. Jeebers76 "We really don't care what religion or lack of religion you have, and many of us really couldn't care less what your sexual persuasion is either. As long as you seem friendly and are trustworthy, we are fine with you, whoever you are and whatever you look like. . . You keep insisting that things like religion, skin color, accents etc are so very important, which just confuses the hell out of the USA."
That's very simplistic. A great many in the US do care what religion one adheres to, what skin colour, sexuality and accents someone has. Friendliness and trustworthiness don't count at the ballot box, as the passage of certain measures on Tuesday has indicated. In sophisticated, urban society, perhaps your statement might be true, but I fear that there are far too many who remain narrow minded and judgemental. "Europeans [who] seem not to understand Americans at all sometimes" have very good reason, since there is no consensus on what is acceptable. What may be reasonable on the Upper East Side of New York may well not be in Salt Lake City and elsewhere.
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I did the best I could to give you a general impression of US attitudes. There will always be those who are more than a little...intolerant. The problem here is that it's really hard to give you detailed info on a culture that varies so wildly from place to place. We have a lot of territory to play with here, so if you look for long enough you are going to find something of just about every attitude under the sun.
What I wrote is the more midwestern/centrist viewpoint. Basically, you can do whatever you want as long as it doesn't upset the peace. This seems to be the most influential viewpoint, but it sure isn't the only one out there!
BTW, wasn't Freud the one who defined everything as having to do with genitals or sex? He seemed pretty neurotic himself, so I don't see how you can get away with trusting anything the man said about humanity.
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359, David.
"A great many in the US do care what religion one adheres to, what skin colour... someone has."
Ah, yes, David, but we won and they lost.
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#361. allmymarbles: "Ah, yes, David, but we won and they lost."
Nevertheless, those who lost number in the millions; at last count, 65,098,323 for Obama and 57,155,296 for McCain; that's just short of 8 million difference. 57 million people still care about religion, colour of skin and so forth, in addition to genuine policy differences. I haven't seen any statistics (which may not be available) on those who declined to vote for Mr Obama on account of his heritage, but my guess is that there remains a lot of unashamed bigotry. It may be another generation, possibly two, before it disappears. By then though, there will likely be another group singled out for negativity, that's how human nature seems to work
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360 Jeebers76 wrote:
"I don't see how you can get away with trusting anything the man said about humanity."
If a proposition (or hypothesis) tested against the available evidence is true, why not trust it, whoever said it?
If there is no trust (and from some bloggers here there has been precious little trust in anyone or anything except themselves sometimes) the result is nihilism and chaos.
I cannot for the life of me remember this exactly, or who said it in answer to the "Do what thou wilt" philosophy: i.e. "Do what you like as long as it doesn't harm others."
It should run something like: "Do what you will, as long as it does not impinge on others' freedom to also do what they would." It has to work both ways: for others in society as well as the individual. Or that, too leads to anarchy.
362: David,
The thing that struck me was that (of those who voted) 95 per cent of African Americans voted for Obama; around half of whites, and very few over 55's. That looks to me like a rather big divide.
(And speaking of misconceptions, I've just heard the call to prayer echoing round the streets from my local mosque, and it's time to hang out the black flag of Islam from my window.)
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362, David.
Many of those who voted for McCain did so because it benefited them taxwise. Others voted Republican because they always voted Republican.
I think the children born in this century won't care about color and will wonder what all the fuss was about. Not that there won't always be narrow-minded, hateful people, but they may find other groups to victimize. They have already started on Moslems and Arabs.
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Just glancing back, I read this:
"USA was built on this culture of the unsettled immigrant, who simply wanting to get away from the generationally ingrained attitudes of the country that he has come from. Every immigrant who came to the US has done this. Thats why the working class in the US vote for conservatives while the European working class vote liberals."
Seems rather illogical to me, and at the heart of why Fukuyama (remember him?) made a mess of that difference. It's also not true that "the European working class" necessarily vote 'liberal' en masse.
At least not for a fair part of the 20th century. Otherwise, Jean Marie Le Pen would not have lately done quite so well in France, the Lega Norde in Italy, or the BNP in parts of Britain. Let alone for Haider in Austria (though that is something of a special case.) Or for 'New Labour' in Britain, which has some pretty 'conservative' policies, despite what some may think, if it comes to that.
And surely, an awful lot of immigrants to America were escaping failed or repressed 'liberal' revolutions in both Europe and South America? Why should that predispose them or their descendants to vote conservatively? Except out of fear of being out of place?
The number of Latin-Americans who voted for Obama (including the younger generation of Cuban-Americans) seems to contradict that assumption too.
David wrote: "there will likely be another group singled out for negativity, that's how human nature seems to work."
Well, it's pretty clear that will be 'Arabs/Islamists'. That's been pretty clear from the way the American right has been talking. And it will be a sidelong way of critcising Obama's as president while claiming not to be criticising the institution. I don't see that spectre being laid to rest any time soon.
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365: allmymarbles
You got there before me. What I dislike is that when that kind of thing informs a country's foreign policy (as it has of late) it can be used to legitimise it -- and generate violent opposition to it -- around a good part of the rest of the world, as we have seen increasingly over the last couple of years.
India, Thailand, now parts of China even . . .Britain and Spain too of course, though to a very much smaller (albeit it lethal, but even then less so than the IRA or ETTA) extent.
(I haven't forgotten the Dunkin' Donuts commercial withdrawn within 48 hours because a keffiyeh was a 'terrorist symbol'. . .)
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366, ishish.
I think if people like you and I yell loud enough our voices are heard. We won't change the world - just a corner of if. Keep yelling.
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"The connection of small, low tax government and prosperity is obvious." - TimothyR444
Which is why everyone in Scandinavia goes about in rags scavenging through garbage cans for food.
Seriously, try looking at some actual evidence. For example, the greatest sustained boom in world history was the post-WWII period, with strong government and high tax rates (the top rate in the USA never fell below 88%). The current dire financial crisis has come after a long period when people with your ideas have been in charge - as did the Great Depression, which was cured by big government.
But there, I'm forgetting, rightists have no interest in evidence.
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TimothyR444@356,
You seem to be right for the period up to 2004. But not in 2006 or 2008.
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"And THIS is a fascinating topic: the explosion of anti-Americanism." - TimothyR444
You make the common, and quite false equivalence between opposition to the actions of the US government, and hatred of Americans. There are a small number of people who are "anti-American" in that true sense, but most of what you call "anti-Americanism" is dislike for the actions and attitudes of the Bush II administration, and this will now vanish - unless and until Obama or a successor adopts the same approach. Americans still can and do travel with complete freedom in Europe, and are in no danger because they are Americans. This would not be so if hatred for Americans was widespread. Still, I know that pointing out this simple fact will have no effect whatever on your ingrained prejudices.
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"Europeans seem not to understand Americans at all sometimes." Jeebers76
I'm getting my information on American attitudes to atheists from American atheists - and from Americans like you, who couple your assurance that you're not anti-atheist with anti-atheist sneering.
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"How can that which is contained comprehend that which contains?" Ed Iglehart@351,
It depends what meaning you give to the vague term "comprehend". The fundamental structure of the physical universe may be fairly simple - we don't know. We might come to understand why the universe has the physical laws it does, and how these made possible the appearance of life. We already understand the basics of how, once life appeared, it allowed the development of intelligence - evolution by natural selection, along with some other mechanisms such as symbiosis. We understand a good deal about how human societies change over time. What we will not be able to do is predict the future in detail - although we may be able in time to predict the universe's long-term future - heat-death, big crunch, big rip, or whatever.
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Nick (To Tim)
Au contraire. It is you who are assuming Tim's interpretation of "anti-Americanism" to be the one with which you take issue. And further (to me),I have never thought that "comprehend" was in any way vague. Both meanings convey my understanding of the term, and both are consistent with my contention that the contained cannot contain its containment.I believe you have a mild form of Humpty Dumpty-ism, in that you seem to wish to re-define/distort or intentionally misunderstand other folks' words and meanings/intentions in such a way as to create an argument....Agreed.A miniscule subsection of the contained understanding an aspect of that which it, in turn, contains...
Peace and perspective
ed
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367.allmymarbles wrote:
366, ishish.
I think if people like you and I yell loud enough our voices are heard. We won't change the world - just a corner of if. Keep yelling.
Not some people's corner of it. Obviously.
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Nick,
On reading Tim's #355, I have to concede that he does seem to be conflating America and Americans.
Peace and conciliation
ed
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351. At 11:59pm on 07 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:
Nick, et. al.,
How can that which is contained comprehend that which contains?
--------------------------------------
Well sometimes they see the container as dinner.
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The volume on this video is way too low. I can't hear a word being spoken.
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Ed@373,
The second meaning you quote for "comprehend" clearly does rule out the contained comprehending the container; the first does not. Hence, my contention that it depends what you mean by "comprehend". It's not Humpty-Dumptyism to try to pin down the meaning of a word intended by someone you are arguing with. It's called seeking clarification. "Ambiguous" might have been a better term than "vague", although I would contend that the first meaning is itself vague, in the same sense as "tall" is: contextually dependent, and without sharp boundaries of its applicability even within most contexts. How well do I need to understand or grasp something in order to "comprehend" it? What criteria do you propose to apply to determine whether the universe has been "comprehended"?
Bear in mind I am not arguing either that we now comprehend the universe, or that we can; simply that we do not know that we can't.
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Ed Inglehart:
"On reading Tim's #355, I have to concede that he does seem to be conflating America and Americans.
Peace and conciliation"
*chuckle*
I was going to thank you for your thoughtful interpretation of my comments, but since you decided to take it all back - I will withhold my thanks!
I don't know why you bothered responding in the first place.
As for the peace-and-conciliation stuff, I prefer a good, solid argument to political correctness and syrupy sentiment.
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The difference between the U.S. and continental "Europe" (meaning not UK or Scandanavia) is very fundamental.
In "Europe" all rights reside with the government and the government grants rights to the people.
In the US all rights reside with the people and the States except for those powers expressly granted to the Federal government by the people and the State.
Of course, this has been trampled on in the US many times. I only hope Obama will not destroy this distinction.
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Why bother talking to Francis Fukuyama anyway? He was wrong about the "end of history." What an ego!
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"In "Europe" all rights reside with the government and the government grants rights to the people." - MountBayou
Would you care to provide some evidence for that ludicrous claim?
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Mount bayou:
"The difference between the U.S. and continental "Europe" (meaning not UK or Scandanavia) is very fundamental.
In "Europe" all rights reside with the government and the government grants rights to the people.
In the US all rights reside with the people and the States except for those powers expressly granted to the Federal government by the people and the State.
Of course, this has been trampled on in the US many times. I only hope Obama will not destroy this distinction."
I have no idea what you are talking about.
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380, MountBayou.
In theory you might be right. In practice, you are not. I have to agree with Timothy.
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I don't care what anyone says, you Brits are Funny! And I mean that in a good way...As an American who voted against Bush and his Doctrines, nearly all of them, I understand your 'anti-Americanism'. Obama was our only choice, a good one, hopefully and if he does half of what he hopes to do will make an excellent World Leader. We Colonists have no illusions as to promises made during political campaigns. As Jimmy Carter put it, "If you want to make a difference, Be the President" when he was trying to talk Al Gore into running again. Obama is a talker but he is also a good listener and will make good decisions when all the facts are in. Bush is a knee-jerk reactionary and an elitist who thinks that Might is Right, we apologize for his last 8 years from the bottom of our hearts and we are currently paying dearly for our decision in 2000 and 2004 to give him a shot at the world. Yes, we vote Republican when things are going good but it has nothing to do with Religion. Rather it is tied to the fact that Republicans traditionally are Conservative, well heeled, and influential and we working class blue collar types who are trying to better our social positions take up their banner in hopes of being considered Successful. But, when times get tough, as they have the last two years of every Republican Administration, we tend to band together under the Democratic Banner of 'Spreading the Wealth'.
As for the atheist/agnostic debate, only God knows for sure...
Dolphins must certainly be quite a bit ahead of us, they swim around totally in the buff, eating sushi, and enjoying themselves continuously while laughing all the while.
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on 383...
Obama taught a course at the University level on US Constitutional Law for over 9 years when he was a young man.
I am absolutely certain he will do whatever is it takes to make sure it is restored to as close to it's true meaning as is humanly possible.
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Why would anyone make a distinction between the UK and the rest of Europe in regards to power. A single individual Gordon Brown ratified the Lisbon treaty on behalf of the entire UK ceding more of its sovereignty without even so much as a vote in his rubber stamp parliament. It wasn't necessary and he wasn't taking any chances on opposition. The US is not moving closer to being like Europe but further away.
That European governments reserve power to themselves and then only grant what "the people" ultimately get reluctantly is explainable by the fact that they evolved from absolute monarchies, a notion which in principle they have never surrendered. Even France which rejected monarchy in its revolution became re-enfatuated with it after Napoleaon's disasterous tyranny. The European mentality is a despotic one. To say that Europeans hate the American government but not Americans misses the point entirely. Europeans hate the idea of America period. The want it to still behave like a colony or a clone of themselves. But the mirror image is also true. The more I have studed, lived in, and come to know what Europe is about, the more I hate it. Our values are inherently incompatible no matter what politicians and diplomats would have us believe.
Europe will do anything to "challenge" America as Chirac and deVillepin put it. They have even glued themselves together in the farce of a superstate called the EU even though they have hated each other and killed each other for millenia. They hate the US more than they hate each other. It won't work. Europe will never be a serious challenge to the US. It is by its very nature an inferior civilization where they will never have a Barack Obama of their own. In Northern Ireland they have barely stopped killing each other over religion while in the Basque country the are at war with the Castillions. Which nation of Europe will be the first to have a Roma leader? Unthinkable to them, an Obamination!
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385. 129CBRider wrote:
"I don't care what anyone says, you Brits are Funny! And I mean that in a good way..."
Ta. Not half as funny as MAII, though. (In a bitter and twisted sort of way.)
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Timothy (#379) wrote: "I prefer a good, solid argument to political correctness and syrupy sentiment."
No, you don't.
And another thing: I was wondering if you ever happen to read a provocative monthly which fellow BBC blogger Sam Tyler subscribes to, viz. 'Viz'. The reason I ask is that 'Viz' features a Timothy/Timmy character whose speech bubbles often contain sentiments strikingly similar in both style and tone to those in several of your posts.
In case you're unfamiliar with 'Viz', the thing is that Timmy appears in the comic strip titled 'Spoiled *******'. I've completely censored the second word, since the last time I alluded to this comic title in a post, the mods got all medieval on my ****.
Sam, would you go along with me on this one, or do you beg to differ? As an authority on all things 'Viz', I'd be very interested in your views either way.
While on the subject of comprehending the importance of others' points of view, it was wonderful to hear Obama say in his epochal acceptance speech that as president he'd be listening particularly closely to those who DISAGREED with him. If only W had done just that before blundering ahead with Operation Iraq Liberation.
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Responding to 8. At 9:48pm on 05 Nov 2008, LNewson wrote: A very good comment about the difference between the United States and Europe was made by a Frenchman in Michael Moore's film "Sicko". He said something like: "In Europe the government is afraid of the people while in America the people are afraid of the government".
Oddly, as an American, I had been subconsciously afraid to voice my opinions while Dubbya and Cheney are in office. (And personally I fear that it is quite possible though improbable that they could declare Martial Law between now and Jan 20, 2009 and retain their fascistic brand of UNAMERICAN "Republican Democracy".) But since the election last week, I've been voicing my politics all over the place...
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386, 129C.
"Obama taught a course at the University level on US Constitutional Law for over 9 years when he was a young man. I am absolutely certain he will do whatever is it takes to make sure it is restored to as close to it's true meaning as is humanly possible."
I am sorry you are absolutely certain. Democrats traditionally interpret the Consitution more loosely than the Republicans. Strict constitutionalists would toss abortion rights to the states.
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I'm sure the splenetic, almost psychotic hatred for Europe and Europeans shown by "Marcus Aurelius II" is as rare in the USA as its converse is in Europe. I agree that there is much wrong with Europe, and with the EU, and that the attempt to push the Lisbon Treaty through without proper democratic process was wrong (it has failed, at least for now, thanks to the Irish). However Lisbon would not have given away sovereignty - indeed, it would have provided, for the first time, a formal method for any country to leave the EU. It seems quite bizarre to blame and resent Europeans for trying to transcend the wars and hatreds of the past, as MAII does. The EU is not a "superstate" and is not likely to become one; it is an attempt to build a trans-national political structure with no precedent, and a demonstration in itself that European creativity is flourishing.
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"personally I fear that it is quite possible though improbable that they could declare Martial Law between now and Jan 20, 2009 and retain their fascistic brand of UNAMERICAN "Republican Democracy"" - ex1312
I detest Bush and his cohorts, but this is paranoid nonsense, just as much as the stuff about Obama being a Marxist-Islamist-BlackPower terrorist sympathiser we've been subjected to so much of here. Those around Bush will concentrate on pushing through as many hard-to-reverse administrative measures as they can, laying political booby traps for Obama, looking after their own future careers or retirements, and feuding with other Republican factions.
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393: Just a question, what are these 'hard-to-reverse administrative measures'? I have seen it mentioned a couple of times, but with no detail.
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"I'm getting my information on American attitudes to atheists from American atheists - and from Americans like you, who couple your assurance that you're not anti-atheist with anti-atheist sneering."
I'll join in on the sneering at athiests.
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America is, was, and will be BRITISH.
All English speaking democracies are more alike than Europeans are like each other. Your question has the tail wagging the dog...Europe has become much more like Britain and America than we have become more like Europe.
P.S. And all this talk of "OBAMA and CHANGE" is going to look very foolish when "EUROPEANS" find out just how much real "POWER" an American president has! Americans are still trying to figure out how either candidate were ever chosen and by whom? If this election was "democratic", you would have to prove it to the majority of American citizens. Your extremely, obvious GLEE over a black getting whitey also says alot about what many people are really thinking, and it doesn't say much for equality.
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Marcus Aurelius old chap, I realise that you think America is superior in every way. In general, you spoil your case by overstating it. And sometimes you are disingenuous:
"In Northern Ireland THEY have barely stopped killing each other over religion while in the Basque country the are at war with the Castillions. Which nation of Europe will be the first to have a Roma leader? Unthinkable to them, an Obamination!"
(1) THEY? American citizens financed and sent arms to help the killing in Northern Ireland - and IRA murder in the rest of the UK. Why kill each other in America when you could kill us instead? ( I Know this true point may not be exactly fair, but you started it!) We may have barely stopped killing each other over religion, but you have barely stopped lynching over race, n'est ce pas?
(2) Broadly, the laws and ideals of the US are English in origin, and have much to do with the Cromwellian commonwealth. Yes, that wasn't democratic, but nor was the United States of George Washington. Western Democracy, with all its imperfections is a product of the protestant reformation and the translation of the Bible into the vernacular. (William Tyndale and others died for this!) Once people had redefined their relationship with God (existent or not), they were certainly going to redefine it with their rulers too.
(3) In 1874, the electors of Britain did something sensational: they elected a swarthy dark haired Christianised sephardic Jew as Prime Minister. He was successful because he created a new political consensus around "One Nation Conservatism". Any echoes to recent US events? Could this have happened in the US or anywhere else at the time? I doubt it.
In Europe, as in the US, we have people whose raison d'etre is creating division, or worse: people whose political power base depends upon it. The future of humanity depends upon the rest of us realising that what unites us is more important than what divides us - and trying to debate important issues in a rational manner.
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selfevidenttruths@394,
See for example:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/barackobama/3386968/George-Bush-plans-to-push-through-agenda-in-last-days-in-office.html
For those unfamiliar with it, the Telegraph is a right-wing British newspaper.
MoundBayou@395
Thanks for making my point for me! Much appreciated. Now, how about some evidence for your ludicrous claim about Europe@380?
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Nick,
None, because one would have to be outside it to make such a determination. Even the first meaning (understand, grasp, etc.), is sufficiently rigorous to constitute an impossibility. We can comprehend the concept of the "universe", but we cannot comprehend the "thing" (which it isn't) ;-)Peace and comprehension
ed
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Ed,
You keep asserting the impossibility, but provide no argument for it worth the name. I don't think there's any point in taking this discussion further.
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Nick,
You're probably right about pointless. I see it as axiomatic.
Salaam/Shalom
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Uriel wrote,"Our sitting president just committed $700 billion to shore up some banks and their debts, which are really nothing more than numbers on pieces of paper. While in a recession. With two expensive wars going."
Umm, That was Nancy Pelosi trying to remrod that stinker of a bill thru the congress not the President. True, he signed the bill, but it was the Democratic leadership that was running around with their hands in the air and screaming like little girls. And it was the Press (BBC included) that helpd them.
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Glen,
Didn't the idea come from Paulson?
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Timohio - I wasn't ignorant of Limbaugh's existence, I just hadn't read/listened to any of his stuff. But you're quite right, I was oblivious to that bit of news. Thanks for clueing me in. I LOL'd. :)
395. At 12:15pm on 09 Nov 2008, MoundBayou wrote:
"I'll join in on the sneering at athiests."
And we'll sneer right back at you. You can't even spell the word, apparently.
OMG, MAII really is barking.
Bush agenda: watch for the presidential pardons dished out in his last days. Clinton's were disgraceful enough, I'm guessing Mr. Bush will set new records.
Ed, I don't see the incomprehensibility of the universe as any more axiomatic than the (non)-incomprehensibility of the planet. It was, once, incomprehensible; it no longer is. We are also 'contained' by the planet! I have an astrophysicist friend who is hopeful we will one day accumulate an understanding of 'the whole of physics'. I'm backing Nick on this one.
And yep, the idea came from Paulson.
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Sneering? Where did you get that (in my posts)? Sneering implies that I felt a certain way, in that I felt superior to those who don't believe in God.
That cannot be further from the truth. Nick, you are assigning emotions and interpretations that don't exist. In the end, I am the only one who can dictate what emotion I felt when I wrote each post. And, I can tell you, I never "sneer" at anyone. I realize this might not help prove my attitude, but anyone who knows me can't imagine me sneering at anyone, or having an ego that large.
You are simply going to accept what I state as the truth about how I feel and think, no other course of action exists, unless you can somehow read my mind from wherever you are. That is not a human ability.
Believe in what you want, people. I care about the effect each person has on the world around them, and nothing else.
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Jeebers76, I believe Nick was referring to your para:
"Actually 204, the vast majority of us don't care if you're an atheist either. Are you a decent person? If so we can work with that. If you run about declaring you are an atheist then we WILL look at you funny. It's only the weirdoes that seem to care about atheism."
This could be read as self-contradictory and even snarky or sneery.
Personally, I didn't take it that way. I read it more as equivalent to "If you run about declaring you are a Klingon, then we WILL look at you funny.". I.e., that if you are too much of a nerd about anything then you may invite intolerant responses. Was that what you meant?
I'm an atheist, in the passive, absence-of-belief sense rather than the active belief-in-no-god sense. My mother is a militant atheist and her take on it strikes me as highly ironic. She's actually got quite a religious level of passion about it! She evangelizes.
I think the urge to belief is pretty much universal. I believe in beer. :)
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406, blim.
"If you run about declaring you are a Klingon, then we WILL look at you funny."
But I AM a Klingon.
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Jeebers76,
So would you also say:
"If you run about declaring you are a Christian then we WILL look at you funny. It's only the weirdoes that seem to care about Christianity."?
Even if you would agree with that statement, it is not exactly the impression I gained from the recent Presidential contest. A recent poll showed that a known atheist would have a harder time winning the Presidency than a member of any other minority about which the question was asked - a majority of Americans would not vote for one (http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/5125.html). Nor did you deal with the Dole/Hagan contretemps, or George Bush Sr.'s declaration that he doubted atheists could be American citizens. There are many, many other examples.
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allymarbles@406,
Then of course we'll look at you funny! Those forehead ridges are bound to attract attention!
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When the professor was talking about the tax rates of the US vs Europe, he missed an opportunity to point out a vast difference between Americans (blue collar, middle class, upper class, whatever) and Europeans, charitable giving. In 2007, Americans gave away US$304,000,000,000 to charities. This is on top of taxes. This is one of the reasons, we Americans are so sensitive to the term "re-distribution of wealth." We can re-distribute our own wealth without help from the government, thank you.
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PennsylvaniaHick,
But despite American charitable giving, you fail miserably to deal with poverty in your own society. Only collective provision through taxation has ever, anywhere, come close to abolishing it (in Scandinavia). The claim that you can redistribute wealth without government help is simply false.
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Dear Nick,
To respond to a couple of your points:
"You fail miserably to deal with poverty in your own society."
1. More than half our our poor people are overweight, so they are eating plenty.
2. Our universities (the best in the world) have a cross-section of society because of charitable giving by alumni. Good students get scholarships.
3. My own parents were born in poverty but, through hard work and the seizing of opportunity, now live comfortable middle class lives as do all of their children with multiple advanced degrees among them. True poverty is a lack of opportunity. The US abounds in opportunity.
"The claim you can re-distribute wealth on your own is false."
US$304,000,000,000 isn't wealth?
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PennysylvaniaHick@412,
I can hardly believe your first point is meant seriously. Junk food is certainly cheap in the USA. This does not mean there is no poverty. Your second and third points are just the same old hooey about the American dream, but statistics show there is less social mobility in the USA than in most western European countries; Sweden comes top.
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I really enjoyed Francis Fukuyama's interview. He might also have added that there will always be a HUGE difference between Europe and the U.S. in that all Americans who came here from foreign shores, whenever their arrival, for the most part, were optimistic people. They all believed that life would be better here.
Another reason for our optimism is that our culture has been formed around the initial concept of a vast, unexplored and unclaimed land of untapped resources available for the taking, resulting in our view of "Manifest Destiny". When one analyzes that concept, it is basically a belief that the world is ours for the taking, and for reshaping. You can't get much more optimistic than that. Most Europeans, on the other hand, going in, start with the concept that living is pretty much accepting your place in society and dealing with the cards life has handed you to the best of your ability.
While most Americans are inextricably interconnected with European culture, there was a dramatic break with that culture when they came to the U.S. The American way of seeing the world as the raw material for ones creative force is a powerful and positive view. It gives each individual a real sense of his or her own ability to shape the world in his or her own image. The European, on the other hand, sees the world as basically immutable, handed down from one generation to the next, and at best, he or she is capable of manipulation of what they have been given to their own ends. Maybe it's only a slight difference, but I believe it has a profound effect.
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