Hispanics swing
This is where the future lies for both parties.
What is interesting about the Hispanic vote is that it is up for grabs - genuinely a swing vote in the future.
Immigration is plainly a battleground area, as is the economy generally, but socially conservative, fiscally sound, inclusive policies pursued by a future Republican candidate could do the trick as well.
And what if their bishops weigh in as they seem ready to do?
The paradox for Barack Obama is that if the economy improves on his watch, then some of these voters might feel able to think more about abortion - and other social issues - next time round.
(By the way, "Hispanic" or "Latino"? I thought "Latino" was mildly offensive, but the LA Times seems to use it and ought to know its onions on this matter.)
The point about Mr Obama's victory - precise numbers apart - is that it was a reaching out effort and that in itself is important and will have knock-on effects as suggested here.
Hello, I'm 
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The Bishop
Something like this Justin?
Or not what you had in mind
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Obama, and the rest of the socialist elite in the Democratic party, will loose out on traditionally conservative hispanic voters, no matter which way the economy goes.
If the economy gets better, then these voters will be thinking of other issues where democrats disagree with their views.
If the economy gets worse then the democrats who are no longer able to blame Bush or the GOP, will have to take the blame.
A hardline stance on imigration might hurt Republicans, if the GOP takes it too far.
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The Catholic
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While in Mexico, two phrases which have serve me well are:
Una cervesa senorita, por favor.
-One beer, please miss.)
Donde esta el Bano?
-Where is the loo/bathroom?
When I was young and single I also said:
Donde esta la bonitas?
-Where are the pretty girls?
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"(By the way, "Hispanic" or "Latino"? I thought "Latino" was mildly offensive, but the LA Times seems to use it and ought to know its onions on this matter.)"
Hispanic: a person of Spanish descent (so this excludes Brazilians).
Latino/a: a person of Latin-American descent.
Chicano/a: a Mexican-American (a citizen of the U.S.)
The term chicano seems to be falling out of use.
None of these should be considered racial epithets.
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"Immigration is plainly a battleground area, as is the economy generally"
Interesting that you place the two in juxtaposition. Illegal immigration plainly has an effect on the economies of the border states and is one of our more pressing problems. A pregnant mother can come across the international border at Tijuana, have her baby, and Voila! the child is an American citizen with all the benefits pertaining thereto.
Last year, in Los Angeles County, the Department of Public Social Services showed that illegal immigrants received in excess of $37 million in welfare and food stamps - for November alone, one month! Los Angeles County Supervisor Michael Antonovich said that "the total cost for illegal immigrants to County taxpayers far exceeds $1 billion a year ? not including the millions of dollars for education."
Nationally, The Washington Times had said that In 2007, Legal and illegal aliens, cost the federal government more than $346 Billion dollars and the U.S. taxpayers paid more than $9,000 for each immigrant in the country.
Numbers like that speak for themselves; no small wonder that California and other tax payers are unhappy.
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The Catholic Bishops' reaction to the election result only goes to confirm their own unwordliness. For all the hell and damnation that they threaten, Joe Biden's Dems won Scranton and Latinos turned out in a majority for Obama.
There is a state of mind known as humility - and after the scandals of the abuse by the Catholic clergy - one would think that that now is the time to show it, rather to come out with further arrogance.
The US is not even a Catholic country but if they look across the sea to Ireland they will see a people who have have a steady faith in the way of goodness but who refuse to be browbeaten by the inflexibility of Rome.
The speed with which the Catholic Bishops have come out with their condemnation -just as a divided country is trying to unite - is more Inquisition than modern America.
If that is the way they want to go, the only losers will be themselves.
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Andy, you haven't posted in while, have you been on a low information vactation?
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My apologies- a bad link first time around
Not what you had in mind
{ It all looks so easy when Ed does it}
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Reuben # 2
Others may prove me wrong, but I think that's the first time that we've heard of the "socialist elite".
Given that whole fury about G.W. Bush's bailout has culminated in Socialism as term of abuse of the moment, shouldn't the lame duck presidency be called the socialist elite ?
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The "Hispanic" vote is, indeed, up for grabs, but that is also true for every other ethnic and social group in America.
As a US born Hispanic (descendent of Galicians, Asturians, Basques, and Canary Islanders) I can assure you that the influence of Bishops is as tenuous on us as anyone else's. I happen to be an agnostic. "Hispanics" in the USA are not an homogenous group with identical roots, political and religious views, or social status. We are no different from anyone else, and it is precisely because of that fact that the "Hispanic" vote is up for grabs in future elections.
Immigration reform may swing some votes among this segment of our population, but only if it is implemented fairly and objectively. Most of us respect the laws of the land and object to illegal acts, but we also feel compassion, and sympathize with the needs of those desperate people that come to this country seeking a better life. Most importantly, we tend to understand and value the contributions of "illegal" immigrants better than other ethnic groups, who tend to focus on the negative aspects of illegal immigration when it is focused on "Hispanics" while they ignore the tens of thousands of Eastern Europeans that enter the USA illegally every year via the Canadian border.
Most "Hispanics" are white, and many more are descendents of indigenous people from North, Central and South America. Cuban- Americans (I hate these hyphonated terms and wish we were all called Americans) are predominantly Republican, Puerto Ricans tend to be Democratic, and Mexican-Americans are split between the two parties. Most of us are social and fiscal conservaties, and most of us believe government has a role in solving the problems afflicting the less fortunate in addition to other traditional government functions.
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Certainly the Hispanic community will be important in all current and future elections. But it would be silly to assume they vote as a bloc. They'll be divided between Democrat & Republican about the same as the rest of us I'd imagine.
Yes Justin, Hispanic is probably the more politically correct, but that may depend on the region.
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#2 Reuben34g:
"Obama, and the rest of the socialist elite in the Democratic party, will loose out on traditionally conservative hispanic voters, no matter which way the economy goes."
What a shame your crystal ball wasn't functioning so efficiently during the election, then you might have made less of an ass of yourself.
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"By turning their backs on those states, previous Democratic presidential candidates didn?t give voters the chance to consider opposing viewpoints"...???!! What a howler! Is someone pulling our leg, here? Or is this just another in an endless train of media doublespeak?? Since when have the Democrats ever put forward substantial "opposing viewpoints"?!! That would be contrary to their very raison d'etre! The Democrats are an indispensable pillar of America's one-party state. By collaborating with their Republican brethern in championing the interests of the well-to-do, it's fundamentally heresy to " give voters the chance to consider opposing viewpoints." They wouldn't be the Democrats if they did! No, the overriding objective of both wings of the Duopoly Party is to oppose opposing viewpoints. To stamp out any real threats to American empire and bring everyone into conformity in supporting elite interests. That's what Obama Copacabana is all about. And that "is where the future lies for both parties." Which is exactly why we need a new one(s)!
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I almost hesitate to comment on this because I get very emotional about the issue of immigration and the treatment our Latino families in my state.
What has been occurring in Arizona is just plain evil. People are dying, people are being profiled and made to suffer for their ethnicity. It is unconscionable. We have made it almost impossible for someone from Mexico or Central America to get a visa to visit relatives or work toward citizenship.
We are deporting parents away from their children who were born here and sending good, deserving young people back to countries they never knew because they were brought as babies across the border.
If our President-elect Obama can heal some of these wrongs and also improve our economy, I do not believe that Latino voters will forget this and only focus on narrow social issues.
Most that I know are intensely loyal, good people who never forget those who respect them and their issues which Obama has promised to do.
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"Andy, you haven't posted in while, have you been on a low information vactation?"
I put myself in the penalty box for a while for allowing myself to be goaded into a rant which I now regret. It's surprising how easy it is to broadcast a bad day across the world when you post on the internet. ; )
I've also been posting furiously on the Rocky Mountain News (Denver, CO) website about the election. It was a lot of fun.
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Hispanics are not a swing voting block. They vote Democratic. Fact.
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My guess: The Latino vote was up for grabs. The Democrats grabbed it and plan on keeping it.
The GOP stance on illegal immigration is widely seen as being anti-immigrant and anti-Latino, not anti-illegal immigrant.
The chances of the GOP capturing the Latino vote after a decade of GOP candidates legitimizing anti-Latino bigotry are about the same as the GOP capturing the African-American vote after three decades of legitimizing anti-black bigotry.
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To#7Eightpercent
I so agree!
Many Latinos here are still angry that the Catholic Church sent their errant priests to parishes in Arizona and New Mexico because there was a consensus among the bishops that these congregations were 'more devout and less likely to cause any trouble.' (my words may not be exact but their intent is unmistakable.)
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Here's a handy tutorial on the terminology:
http://ns3.azteca.net/aztec/chicano.html
Note, however, that the hot button in the US is not the ancestry of persons coming from Latin America to the US, but their immigration status. There are other terms for these, some of which could be considered offensive.
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Justin,
Hispanics swing?
Yeah baby, YEAH!
vini vidi bibi
Samus Romanus
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#5. AndyPost: "Chicano/a: a Mexican-American (a citizen of the U.S.)"
Not! Chicano/Chicana is simply one of Mexican descent and is not necessarily "Mexican-American" or a US citizen. Some of them might find the term offensive.
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I would never say an unkind word to Justin Webb but our dear moderators are giving me an opportunity to think of a lot of unkind words for their sloth.
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To Watermanaquarius
Love your link!
Do not despair, Edinglehart makes everything look easy but you also did it!
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To#11Dominickvila
Beautiful post!
Your eloquent words were much appreciated by this very humble poster. It is so easy to categorize people instead of understanding that each man or woman has a personal story and very different life circumstances.
Thank you for your wise words.
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"Obama, and the rest of the socialist elite in the Democratic party..." - Reuben34g
Whenever I come across a piece of nonsense like this, I know I need read no further, as the writer has long ago abandoned the real world for his/her fantasies.
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To#17Thehandofhistory
I do not think it is ever a good idea to lump a group of people into any category because just when you may think they will jump one way, they may surprise you.
Just my opinion and some experience in seeing this over many years.
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Since Justin raises the question of future swing votes anyone else read that the Republican race for 2012 has already started? Romney has reactivated his political action committee. Jindal, Huckabee, and, I believe, Palin are making visits to Iowa. Apparently they've learned the lesson of 2008; 'You can't win the nomination in Iowa but you can certainly lose it there!' Or maybe; 'It's the momentum stupid!'
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To#20Garyahill
There really is no "immigration status" for some people. Check the impediments and waiting lists for some of our hopeful immigrants.
In my opinion we have closed our doors to many and made the lives of those who have managed to get legal status very miserable.
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I think I have gotten way too emotional over this issue of immigration and so must ask you all to forgive me.
Please be kind to those who still see the USA as a shining beacon in a sea of darkness.
Hope and peace to everyone.
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I think you are making too much of this election.
It comes down to this:
IT'S THE ECONOMY STUPID
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14 proles:
For a moment I thought that your post did'n't contain the phrase 'duopoly party'! Thankfully I was wrong.
: )
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By 2050 the population of the US is projected to be over 400, 000 000, with hispanics comprising around 30% of that total. Much of this increase is expected to come from immigrants and their offspring. How do people think this massive growth (another chapter in the American story) should be managed? The thought occurs to me that whichever party is the champion of these newcomers will hold substantial political capital with them for some time, enough to overcome problematic issues such as abortion (for the democrats), and welfare (for the republicans). Maybe it will not be so long before we see an hispanic president!
http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=85
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30 Aqua:
Apology refused! You care, what is there to forgive?
: )
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"28. At 10:01pm on 12 Nov 2008, AsaScot wrote:
Since Justin raises the question of future swing votes anyone else read that the Republican race for 2012 has already started? Romney has reactivated his political action committee. Jindal, Huckabee, and, I believe, Palin are making visits to Iowa. Apparently they've learned the lesson of 2008; 'You can't win the nomination in Iowa but you can certainly lose it there!' Or maybe; 'It's the momentum stupid!' "
Personally I would vote for a team called Jindal and Huckabee
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OT, but I see those peace loving Iranians just love to prove a point.
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"Not! Chicano/Chicana is simply one of Mexican descent and is not necessarily "Mexican-American" or a US citizen. Some of them might find the term offensive."
It certainly has negative connotations outside the U.S., but that's just a reflection of the fact that most of Latin America looks down on Mexicans (unjustifiably in my opinion).
In the U.S. the term was appropriated by Mexican-American activists who took part in the Brown Power movement of the 60s and 70s in the US southwest. While not as influential as the Black Power movement, it did achieve some of its goals, and there is certainly no stigma attached to the movement and thus none to the term.
Today, many American universities (especially in California) offer Chicano Studies courses.
There are several periodicals produced under the Chicano banner, and the term has been applied to a whole branch of art (including tattoos).
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Current immigration laws make no provision to accept large numbers of unskilled workers whose labor we desperately need.
Quotas are in place that restrict the number of people entering the USA, and the H1B visas are only given to professionals whose services we need. There are many recipients of H1B, tourist, and student visas who remain in the country after their visas expire, but they are seldom persecuted as the way the stereotyped Mexican and Central American immigrants are.
The over discrimination against foreigner of Native American ancestry is unconscionable.
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I understood and still understand what the Wannsee Congress was all about in 2005 when Steve King from the 5th Congressional District of Iowa started a converstion of what shall we do about the 12 million illegal alians in the United States.
He said along with a lot of other Republicans that they should be thrown out. How does a country get rid of 12 million people without resouting to what happen in Nazi Germany? Yet Congress never even seem to understand where this talk of disposing of unwanted racial minorities.
They seem to think that the Mexican Americans did not understand that the Republican Right Wing was not just talking about so-call illegals, but also talking about Mexican-Americans also.
Even though the talk was about Mexicans in general, African Americans understood that they were next. Like that saying about the bus. This is why Sarah Palin could speak so glibly about REAL AMERICANS and her audience knew exactly of what she spoke.
The Republicans did not bother to encode their dislike for the Mexicans, while all the time needing their labor for cheap food and housing construction, especially after Katrina and the floods in the Midwest. But all the time, the Hispanics were listing and put they vote into action.
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6, David_Cunard wrote:
Nationally, The Washington Times had said that In 2007, Legal and illegal aliens, cost the federal government more than $346 Billion dollars and the U.S. taxpayers paid more than $9,000 for each immigrant in the country.
Numbers like that speak for themselves; no small wonder that California and other tax payers are unhappy.
_____
I have only met a few latino immigrants, but to me they seem to have much better work and social ethics than the average US american.
How many latinos, illegal or legal, are as damaging to the US society as trailer park or ghetto trash ?
To my knowledge, they are in general hard working people , family and community oriented to the bone.
Something 'middle america' pretends to be.
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Immigration as a problem? That does'n't seem very American. This is a bit off the top of my head but what about this?
Why not actively encourage it? Except this time Ellis island would be on the American-Mexican border and would operate in a 21st century manner.
The US government could announce a quota for legal immigrants up to 2050 (yearly, 5 yearly).
States could bid for federal grants that would allow them to establish new towns, or expand
existing ones. Certain federal lands could also be released.
Special business grants, and other incentives could be enabled to encourage both immigrants and citizens to move to these areas.
This could be integrated with national infrastructure renewal.
New immigrants would pay an extra half percent on their federal taxes until they became US citizens.
Etc ...
In addition. restoring relations with Cuba, and aiming for an economically healthy and stable Caribbean ... well whaddya think?
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re: 33
The population growth to which you refer is a huge advantage for the U.S. Industrialized nations around the globe are facing the very real threat that their populations are becoming increasingly older.
If a total fertility rate (TFR) is taken to indicate the average number of children a female has and if the rate needed to replace females from generation to generation is roughly 2 (since half the offspring will be male), any country with a TFR less than 2 (2.1 really) will not have enough young people to maintain their economy.
The U.S. presently has an estimated TFR of 2.1. It would be better if that number were higher. The highest TFR in Europe is France with 1.98. The U.K. comes in at 1.66. Germany: 1.41. In the east Japan is facing a crisis at 1.22. Singapore and Taiwan are even lower. (Source: CIA World Factbook)
Within the U.S. though, we have these numbers:
* non-Hispanic white -- 1.85
* Asian American -- 1.9
* Black -- 2.02
* American Indian -- 1.73
* Hispanic -- 2.82
It's that 2.82 that gives us an edge over the rest of the industrialized world (save China). Add into that the fact that the Latino population in the U.S. is young, vibrant, and ready to take their rightful place in the country, and you see why I'm bullish on an increasing Latino population.
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self (#41), immigration is not the problem. It is illegal aliens which are perceived as being a problem, not immigrants.
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To#40U12831485
Your response to Davidcunard was so well expressed.
I should probably stay out of this discussion because I will say that I am very biased.
Our good neighbors are hard working people who value family ties, honesty and the importance of community.
If any group of people could be said to represent so called "family values" it would be my Latino neighbors who care for each other, no matter what, and never hesitate to help someone in our community who is in need.
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Aliens? Are these people from another planet?
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43 Gary:
I take your point, but in a way it makes mine. The migration is happening anyway, currently it is leading to a situation where their status is that of 'illegal aliens'. I just wanted to suggest that maybe this 'problem' could be looked at differently and in a way that resonated with the past.
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#40. U12831485: "I have only met a few latino immigrants, but to me they seem to have much better work and social ethics than the average US american."
The problem is illegal immigrants who take but do not give back, except with sales and excises taxes which are impossible to avoid. The huge number of dollars involved with illegals is staggering. I had to jump through the immigration hoops, why shouldn't they?
#44. aquarizonagal: "If any group of people could be said to represent so called "family values" it would be my Latino neighbors who care for each other, no matter what."
No matter what? I wonder how they voted on Proposition 102? Certainly in California Proposition 8 would not have passed without their support. That's not to say they cannot be caring, but their Church, primarily Catholic, has a lot of influence, too much so, on what is strictly a secular matter.
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45 allmy:
No, but I'm beginning to think I am.
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#45. aquarizonagal: "Aliens? Are these people from another planet?"
No, but that is the term that the United States Government uses for legal resident, non-citizens, all of whom are obliged to carry an Alien Registration Card at all times.
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What have the Mexicans ever done for us? Given us choices, that's what. The question is, do you want tequila, or do you want diamonds?
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#50. seanspa: "do you want tequila, or do you want diamonds?"
Couldn't resist this little gem from the lab concerned:
"First of all we turn the liquid tequila into vapour by using a lot of heat."
Fancy that!
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To#34Selfevidenttruths
Thank you for your kind words and I DO care!
My parents were immigrants who suffered and saw America as a light to strive for. I was their first child born in the USA. I have two older brothers (brats) who were not born here but I also love them very much. What would I do if they were suddenly deported?
My birth here was always special to my parents and to me. I feel such empathy for those who are struggling with our current immigration policies. There is no fairness for some people. There is a lack of understanding or empathy for families or certain ethnic groups.
Many of these people have been made into scapegoats for a variety of political reasons.
I have no answers. I can only speak from my heart.
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If McCain thought he would win the Hispanic vote by co-sponsoring the amnesty for illegal aliens act and giving them a sure path to citizenship, he was only kidding himself. While illegals are a great benefit to farmers at harvest time and to sweat shop owners, on the whole they cost the US taxpayer a lot more than the wealth they create. Consider for example that medical insurance costs at least $6000 per person per year alone but illegals cannot be turned away from hospitals in their emergency rooms. Add the cost of educating their kids, fire and police protection and much more and you can see why working at sub-legal rates cannot make up for what they cost taxpayers and the public at large. The access to the American labor market acts as a safety valve for Mexico's terminally corrupt government. That goverment actually publishes detailed instructions to its citizens how to illegally enter the US and escape detection. If it were confronted with desperate citizens who could not go north to escape the grinding poverty and hopelessness, it might either change or be driven from power and replaced with a government which can create or attract enough jobs to keep its citizens happy to stay home with their families. Anyway, McCain proved he was as big a traitor as Kennedy when he sponsored it and despite support from leadership in both parties, Congress defeated it after an outraged American public made it clear they would not accept it and would hold their Representatives accountable if it passed. And even so, Hispanics with the possible exception of Cuban Americans voted mostly for Obama.
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i believe that if the democrats can solve the ilegal immirgation problem in america in a way that is just and considerate to the harsh circumstances of many who have fled harsh conditions in their country then the democratic party will pretty much have the majority of latino votes in the bag, just like they do the african american votes due to their actions on civil rights.
I say the democratic vote because i dont believe the republican party currently can take a pro immigration stance, their base prides themselves on intolerance a bit much, and many of their supporters appear to believe that their should be a mass deportation of these millions of immigrants(impossible).
McCain had the right idea that their has to be a path to citizenship for these folks because the alternative is impossible, but he was chastised by his party and treated like a traitor to the party's cause. The opening is just not there for the republican party at the moment.
Ill also add that the illegal immigration issue benefits many businesses who hire un-documented workers and pay them below the legal minimum wage, the pro-business lobby does not want this problem to go away.
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(I have not yet read the other comments).
'Latino' is not an offensive term, but instead refers to somebody from Latin America, or of Latin American descent. 'Hispanic' technically refers to a Spanish speaker, but is often used interchangeably with 'Latino'.
And 'Chicano' is a term to describe Americans of Mexican descent; also not generally seen as offensive.
As with blacks, Latinos tend to be socially conservative, but economically liberal/leftist* (no doubt because large amounts of their communities are beneficiaries of policies such as welfare, which the Democrats champion), but this could also be said for Southern Christians, who tend to be socially conservative and economically liberal/leftist, too.
*not economically liberal in the sense they support free trade and the free market.
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Back to the subject, folks!
Insightful post, Justin.
While it is now down the list of priorities, illegal immigration must be dealt with forthrightly, hopefully sooner rather than later, preferably on a county-by-county and state-by-state basis, without the long arm of the Federal government clogging up the works.
Illegal immigration, below the media's radar horizon, has created major problems. Employers who hire for cash on the cheap are, in effect, laying off the costs of workplace injuries, health insurance, etc. onto the state and federal governments. (That's us, the taxpayer!) Uninsured women give birth to children, who become 'anchor babies', qualifying both mother and child for food stamps, Medicaid, schooling, etc.
Illegal immigration creates huge costs that must be borne by the states, and the revenue of the states is now shrinking dramatically. Something has to give. Time for the illegals to go home, and finish construction of the southern border fence.
And, let's be realistic--most of the illegal immigrants are Mexican nationals, seeking to escape their circumstances in a country that has been scandalously governed since at least 1920. The lawlessness and corruption are now endemic, and we need not import it out of some misplaced sense of liberal guilt.
There is no inherent Mexican 'right' to emigrate to the US illegally, put down roots, bear children, and demand US citizenship. I certainly don't have the right to move to Mexico without permission! Do a bit of research with your colleagues in Mexico City, and find out just how torturous the process is for any non-Mexican to work legally in Mexico. Ask how many bribes must quietly be paid.
That said, even with illegal immigration under control, the Hispanic population will grow steadily in the US, because of conservative cultural values, led by a resurgent Catholic church. Most Hispanics I have encountered have been enthusiastically enteprenurial. These two factors will eventually drive them in a classically conservative direction. It's up to the Republicans to recover their conservative voice, see this growing part of the society as an ally, not a threat, and emphasize that everyone can prosper only under the rule of law, not by political whim.
That's why their ancestors left Mexico, and why so many Mexicans now wish to follow them.
Good insights, again.
Don't let abusive people call you names.
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#42 Andy Post
I am by no means an expert on immigration issues, but this is one area where we need some common sense.
That being said, I think your advocacy for population growth is a disaster waiting to happen, for ourselves and for the planet. We have finite resources, and to suggest that population growth = prosperity is simplistic and naive. Not to sound Malthusian, but we cannot support our growth rate indefinitely and still maintain high standards of living, and the struggling "underdeveloped" nations will never share in prosperity if their population growth remains unchecked.
Some immigration is good; legal temporary work programs (supervised to prevent abuse) is good; diversity is good. Population of 400M+, not good...
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To#53
Please check your facts. Most people who are here illegally do not seek medical care until they are dead or nearly there.
Millions of dollars have been collected by the government in taxes, social security payments and so forth that will never be paid to these people you vilify.
What you should be asking is what your government is actually doing with this money they have been collecting for years from our so called "Undocumented Workers?
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#52. aquarizonagal: "My parents were immigrants who suffered and saw America as a light to strive for."
My guess is that they arrived legally rather than sneaking in either by climbing fences, tunneling under them or being crammed into trucks. You might read OldSouth's comments at #56, opinions with which, for once, I agree.
To those few who have been on this blog from before the primaries, from later this evening I have to take a break, necessitated by surgery to remove a nasty little "mass" growing in my pelvis. Assuming that American medical science can work its wonders, I should be back at the keyboard early next week for another installment of Justin's wisdom. I don't have a laptop or I'd take it with me.
Incidentally, NHS users, time from diagnosis to surgery, just eleven days. There may be many things wrong with the US healthcare system, but tardiness is not one of them.
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David, I hope it goes well. I know that all surgery carries a risk, indeed just being in hospital carries a isk.
Best wishes.
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I have to agree with Gary_A_Hill, David_C, and
others that illegal immigration is perceived to be
the problem, not immigration itself. We've basically
lost control of our borders with a country with a
huge population which is poor because its government
and police forces are corrupt.
I know about half a dozen people who have been
robbed at gunpoint by police in Mexico (including
most of the Mexicans that I know.) I know that
our European friends have an image of the US
as the "Wild West," but somehow we have gotten
past this point in our colorful history. (I guess Wyatt
Earp and Doc Holliday did the job.)
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#59, David_C, good luck with your operation.
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There is a poster that is fairly popular. It has an official who proclaims "No human is illegal".
__________________
Some fifty years ago, Paul Blanchard wrote a series of books (Beacon Press) detailing the efforts of the Roman Catholic Church, particularly in the United States, to control politicians, judges and votes.
There is basically the millenial-old idea that the Church is to exercise control over society.
The evangelical/fundamentalists may not admit that Catholics are Christians, yet they tend toward the same objectives,
see, for example, the activities of Mr. Land of the Southern Baptists.
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Xie 'Golden Compass' Ming, talk about plants. Deep crap comes to mind.
you've been asked about this before. If you are going to make such remarks, why not provide links?
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#59 DC
Good luck, let us know when it gets over.
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#50, seanspa, this is an unfortunate development,
because it may drive up the price of tequila.
Wise souls should prepare for this eventuality
by stocking up on this medicinal substance,
the benefits of which are explained here.
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#57
"We have finite resources, and to suggest that population growth = prosperity is simplistic and naive. "
Support your argument with statistics. if you want to debate. Just because you say it's true, doesn't make it so. Your own high opinion of your intellectual powers is also irrelevant.
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Oh, and Justin, I just thought that I would mention
that the Statue of Liberty has an undocumented
feature. It is mounted on a turntable and is capable
of being turned around 180 degrees during bad
economic times.
The last time that this was done was during the 30's.
Thankfully, my folks made it across in the preceding
decade.
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David.
All best wishes for the operation.
The ex-med team here on the farm are hoping you make a speedy recovery.
Know you are in good hands there, and look forward to having you back at your keyboard soon.
All Tip-Top care comes at a price
Hoping the mods will be kind.
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David C.
Good luck with your op - we look forward to your return to these pages next week. In the meantime, your words will be much missed.
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AndyPost (#42) wrote of holding a "bullish" position in respect of an increasing population.
Yet over-population is a fundamental cause of climate change, the "peak oil" crisis, multiple wars, and it's making humanity ever more vulnerable to a global pandemic. And that's just for starters.
As a species, right now we have a stark choice, assuming it's not already too late (as some scientists think is the case): we can take measures to address the population explosion, or let nature do the job for us. But as every thoughtful and observant person knows, when nature gets cracking, it generally doesn't muck about. And nature's methods are rarely pretty - except when seen from a distance.
Bullish? That wouldn't be a typo by any chance, would it?
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#69. watermanaquarius -Tip top care indeed! But there was a waiver as Weird Al showed - "including death". Nothing is left to chance by medical lawyers. Thanks for the good wishes and to all the others above and below this number.
Signing off for now!
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David C - my best wishes too regarding the operation.
Your posts are invariably informative and/or witty. Regarding wit, it's a shame your "singing nettles" post didn't prove to be the launch-pad for a running gag to rival the squirrels thing!
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63. At 04:18am on 13 Nov 2008, Xie_Ming wrote:
There is a poster that is fairly popular. It has an official who proclaims "No human is illegal".
__________________
Some fifty years ago, Paul Blanchard wrote a series of books (Beacon Press) detailing the efforts of the Roman Catholic Church, particularly in the United States, to control politicians, judges and votes.
There is basically the millenial-old idea that the Church is to exercise control over society.
The evangelical/fundamentalists may not admit that Catholics are Christians, yet they tend toward the same objectives,
see, for example, the activities of Mr. Land of the Southern Baptists.
__________________________
One unfortunate individual seemed to want links for the foregoing.
To use Google:
Land + Southern Baptist Conference
or
"Paul Blanchard" + "Beacon Press" +
Catholic
or,
"No man is illegal" in their English, German or French equivalents.
Given a few key names or words, it is always better to do one's own research, for one then may identify several different reports concerning the same subject and form his own opinion.
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Xie, indeed. Googling can uncover no end of BS. Hopefully you'll work that out some day.
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I find it seriously worrisome that these Catholic bishops are trying to control American politics in the first place. This would be a marriage of some really divisive politics on both sides. One of the reasons why religion was separated from public laws was that if you favored one, the others would get up in arms about that fact.
I think that if these bishops really wanted to prevent abortion, they should promote birth control (condoms, the pill) and help improve the lot of the people getting abortions in the first place, as on of their factions seems to suggest. Most people really don't want to get abortions, from what I understand.
Honestly, I get a mite worried when any religious figure tries to control secular politics in such a broad fashion. It's too slippery of a slope, IMHO.
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Andy,
Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a
finite world is either a madman or an economist.
--Kenneth Boulding
This morning, 219,000 extra humans need feeding, and tomorrow, will see another 219,000 (after allowing for deaths)
Think again.
Peace and Recognition of limits
ed
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Via Media,
I have no problem with sounding Malthusian. It's simple logic. So, which road do we wish to travel?Peace and Limitations
ed
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When discussions of population growth come up, the correct appreciation that global population growth must end is often coupled with the belief that nothing is being done to end it. This is far from being the case. The global population growth rate peaked in the 1960s at 2.4% p.a. It is now about half that; and since the late 1990s the net numerical increase p.a. (the annual surplus of births over deaths) has declined somewhat. Much of the decline is due to rural-to-urban migration (city people have fewer children), which we couldn't stop if we wanted. There are no grounds for complacency, but we know exactly what needs to be done to speed the end of global growth: improve the status and education of women, reduce economic inequality (poor people have more children), pass and enforce laws against child labour, and make contraception and abortion freely available. These things are obstructed for political and religious reasons.
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Nick,
Not really, but it seems set to do so.Discussion of growth rates from a couple of viewpoints This doesn't address the oft-claimed "solution" of development, leading to a fall in TFR, which ignores that this is at the cost of a much greater rise in percapita footprint, and takes at least a generation to begin...Current estimates have us levelling off at around 9 Billion, and other estimates reckon that it would take three or more Earths to support such a population at even half the consumption rate of normal Euroamericans...Where were those specialist planet constructors? Golgafrincha?
Peace and Panic
ed
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wow
glad to see the elections over and you Fascists that think you're legal , are out in force.
It's them illegals.
Build the wall .
All the time "we are great melting pot."
You're all illegal.So am I.
Give the land back or pay up the treaty costs.
Or shut up about how crowded it is and how americans can't handle any more people.
The rest are coming from some way more crowded places.
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"While illegals are a great benefit to farmers at harvest time and to sweat shop owners, on the whole they cost the US taxpayer a lot more than the wealth they create."
I doubt seriously that USA farmers could operate without these "illegals". If the farmers had to resort to using only US citizens or legal immigrants for harvest, either the labour cost would increase significantly which would increase the price of food, or workers would not be availble to meet demand which would reduce the supply and thus increase food prices. So while illegal immigrants may increase the tax burden, the value of their labour compared to their actual pay more than offsets any tax burden impact.
Additionally, for many parts of the USA, illegal immigrants provide a labor pool for jobs that US citizens are unwilling to do at any wage.
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To#82Rxk150
I have said this more than once but no one seems to pay any attention.
"Illegal" workers in the USA have paid taxes and Social Security that they never presume to collect because they ARE illegal. Our government has this money.
What are they doing with this money?
Next: "Illegal" immigrants in my state avoid any contact with authorities including doctors and hospitals. They ARE NOT a drain on our economy.
I am so tired of certain groups being demonized in order to fuel fear and target a scapegoat for political gain among very ignorant people.
I am finished here!
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Ed, See [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator] If you put in the start and end years 1990 and 2005, the increase 1990-1995 is greater than that 1995-2000, and that 1995-2000 greater than that 2000-2005. Of course, I realise there are uncertainties in such figures, but I've not seen any figures contradicting a slight decrease since the early/mid-90s.
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Nk150,
Neither an increase in the price of food, nor our refusal to undertake "menial" tasks are sufficient justifications for exploiting (and oppressing) folk.Food prices should reflect the true cost of production and menial work should carry a wage sufficient to attract legitimate workers. Anything else is just more pandering to overfunded anal orifices.
Peace and Honesty
ed
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The truth is, the Mexican American vote went to Barack Obama. For once, the Mexican American came out in large numbers, especially in New Mexico where all the US senators, US Representatives, and the governor went to democrats! State election also went to the Democrats and counties with a large Mexican American population are now in control of the State government. The whole state is now Blue!
It seem the Mexican American followed the rest of the USA in electing a Democrat president who happens to be (ironically) both a white and black background.
And get this, Mexican-Americans, like Mexicans, do not wish to be called Latinos. Latino is a dirty stinking word just as much as "Spanish" is throughout the Americas. Most of us are native to the Americas just like the rest of the Americas are which by the way are not white but multicolor. Please do not tie us up with the Latin Europeans. "Hispanic" is OK because it bind us up with the rest of the Americas, language wise.
In fact, the term Latin (or Latino) applies only to Italians and should stay there! The Spanish, much less the French, do not refer to themselves as Latins. Perhaps they hate the damn word just as much as Mexicans do! Quit dumping the damn word on the Americas! Call it Indo-America, Hispanic America, Central or South Americans, but do not refer us as Latinos!
Comprende?
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It seems there is some confusion on terminology, but AndyPost has it correct. Also, Chicano IS a Mexican-American and they are called "pochos" in Mexico.
Most South American's, Cubans, Dominicans, and Puerto Ricans don't consider Mexicans Latinos because Mexico is a part of North America. They are wrong. Latino/a means Latino Americano/a or someone born in the Americas of an ancestry derived from one of the Latin countries. In other words, anyone born in North, Central, and South America of Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese, and Romanian ancestry. This does get convoluted because Haitians might be Latinos under this definition.
Also, AndyPost stated that people in Latin America look down on Mexico, but that's an unsubstantiated claim. As the 11th largest economy in the world (only Brasil is higher in Latin America) and little to no need of other Latin countries, why would they look down on Mexico?
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#7 eightypercent
You've hit the nail on the head. Dare I say, amen brother...
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Regardless of what's been asserted here in recent posts, there is no consensus as to ethnic/linguistic/cultural terminology here in New Mexico or anywhere else in western North America. I might add that this controversy has been going on for many decades. As a consequence, an ethnic studies department at the state's flagship university considered calling one department the "Department of Hispano/Hispana, Chicano/Chicana, Latino/Latina, Mexicano/Mexicana Studies". Everyone of these labels had its aficionados/aficionadas all of whom were prepared to crucify anyone, including the sympathetic, Hispano/Chicano/Latino/Mexicano chair of the department, daring to call them by one of the alternative terms. The result was the pluralistic label. The battles continued for a couple of years and when the dust settled the department was labeled the "Department of Chicano Hispano Mexicano Studies". The only thing that is certain is that the battles will continue, all to no avail. As we learned, or should have learned, long ago, "A rose by any other name..."
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Ed,
You can find the moderator-removed link@84 by googling
"world population prospects the 2006 revision population database". From a BBC story in 2004 I found by googling "world population growth", the annual net increase peaked at around 87 million in 1989-90 and had fallen to 74 million by 2001-2.
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Nick,
Using your source, the following:
Year Population Growth
1990 5 294 879 000
1995 5 719 045 000 415,166,000
2000 6 124 123 000 414,078,000
2005 6 514 751 000 390,628,000
2010 6 906 558 000 391,807,000
2015 7 295 135 000 388,577,000
2020 7 667 090 000 371,955,000
Which does indicate (as you did) a falling off in net increase (and a greater reduction in growth rate as percentage of base)
But, from this chart, the indication is an increase between 2005/2010, followed by a projected fall....
Of course, all this data is subject to errors/inaccuracies, and beyond the present moment, it is all 'projections'. The UK population is a big unknown, even to officialdom, and this in one of the most observed of all populations (and surrounded by water, too)
What is not in doubt is that we cannot expect to just grow and grow without limits, as so clearly set out here, complete with a discussion of the ethical implications, and in the Laws of sustainability, including Boulding's Theorems noted above.
Peace and Restraint
ed
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The Church of Rome is perhaps the biggest problem to Hispanic Americans. If it wasn't for Hispanics in the Americas, there would be no church of Rome to speak of. What Hispanic America should do is to break away from the European Catholic Church and create it's own faith that will mean something to all Hispanics. This change should come with Hispanic America electing it;s own Pope! The recent snub by the Church of Rome's Pope (a former Nazi Youth at that) to Mexico only means the Church establishment take advantage of the faithful in Hispanic America. When it comes to pushing and shoving, the Church of Rome will side with anyone country that attacks Hispanic America. That is a known fact!
The fact is, the Church of Rome feeds on the Hispanic America's poor, dejected and the ignorant faithful and favor the arrogant rich and the ever present repressive ultra right wing fascist thugs supported by the USA government and the Church of Rome. With the exception of a few Hispanic American Bishops which truly support the poor (which, by the way, end up being assassinated like all the labor union leaders in Hispanic America) the need to create a new Hispanic-Catholic Church in the Americas and might even save the Catholic Church from losing more believers.
The other fact is, the mostly "Irish" Catholic Church in the USA is perhaps more discriminate toward Mexican-Americans than protestants groups are. These same Irish-American Bishops are now bent on lecturing Mexican-American catholic believers against president elected Barack Obama which even the most faithful of all Mexican-Americans will find it hard to digest!
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To: MarkInLa # 87
Be assured that AndyPost does not speak for all of Hispanic America. His statement that people in "Latin" America look down on Mexico is false. That statement can only come from someone in the USA who know nothing about Hispanics and Hispanic Americans in general.
If people in other "Latin" American countries look down on Mexico it could be because of it's right-wing fascist government which stole the election (as is being said with the help of the GW Bush Administration) from the people of Mexico.
Someone said long ago that "Mexico had to be the greatest country or the dumbest one in the world because it export it's goods, it's music, it's gold and silver, it's energy, it leather goods, it's farm goods it's finished global commodities and to top it all, it export it's working people!"
He went on to say, "name one country in the entire world that does that!"
All one has to do is to watch the farm fields, the dirty laundry rooms, the filthy restaurant kitchens, the stinking dirty meat houses, and the illegal slave labor sweat markets in the USA. But these ethical hard working honest men and women (and even children) do not get the recognition the stupid drug traffickers and murderous criminal get for importing their illicit drugs simply because the people in the USA love their drugs. And while the USA-Mexican border is used to contraband these illicit drugs, the USA side of the border uses it to contraband illicit guns and ammunition!
The truth is, the USA-Mexico border has become nothing but a finger-pointing area of operation.
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The Hispanics , Latinos etc. are not a monolithic , one dimensional culture of peoples.
To assume so is to view the very diverse , dynamic of the population from a myopic perspective and paint them with a broad brush of generalization.
Just as the "Catholic " population mostly views the church as a marginalized institution in America , the Hispanics also do not necessarily conform to a leadership lockstep.
It is as foolish as the characterization of Caucasians to encompass all of European derivation as being representative of the whole of the diversity of the people whose ancestry is European
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lawChicago (#94), of course such terms as "hispanic" etc. should not be taken to imply that the groups to which they refer are "a monolithic, one dimensional culture." That does not mean that they are not useful in a limited way. All people deserve to be judged as individuals, but it is not practical to discuss social phenomena without resorting to names for social groups.
In the present case being discussed, the social phenomenon is that a very large number of persons of Mexican citizenship have entered the United States without approval of the US immigration authorities. There are consequences to this which are legitimate subjects of discussion. Agreed, that this is a diverse group of people; nevertheless, it is convenient to have a term for them which avoids using a lot of words. Can you suggest one?
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7 The US is not even a Catholic country but if they look across the sea to Ireland they will see a people who have have a steady faith in the way of goodness but who refuse to be browbeaten by the inflexibility of Rome.
did they allow that girl to travel to England for her abortion,yet?
I suppose dunkies are available in bar bogs now, finally.
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92
last paragraph.
back a couple of years a report came out on the racism present in Ireland.
not good.
can't find it so it's not real.
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Here's an interesting article on the "illegal alien" subject:
http://www.immigration-usa.com/george_weissinger.html
As is my custom, I am not endorsing it in whole or in part, merely offering it to whomever might be interested in reading something more weighty on the subject.
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Justin:
"Their" bishops? There are millions upon millions of people with Irish and Italian ancestry that are Catholic in this country; "their" bishops are the same! Shall we presume that they are mindless sheep as you presume those of us USAmericans of Latin American extraction?
Going onto the topic of this blog entry, I believe that Republicans blew it when they decided to singly out one Hispanoamerican community, the Mexican one, when it came to illegal immigration. I have the fortune of having great-grandparents that had the US come to them after the 1898 war with Spain. So, my family's US citizenship was established 90 years ago. Even I felt the hostility waft through to the "communist" Northeast from the Republican parts of the country, and I saw the same exact ethnic hostility in the 21st century that I had read about in history books describing the 19th and 20th centuries. Except after going after people with names like Napolitano or O'Neil, it was directed at people with surnames like Garcia and Rodriguez.
Hispanics in the USA got the message loud and clear: we are for the next couple of generations meant to be second class citizens in the eyes of the populist "Christian" wing of the Republican party. Even those like mine that have not ONE illegal resident in our family tree (and I say this with 100% certainty given history) felt the winds of intolerance. Because we knew that the Republican party only made a big deal out of the southern border because it was not 190 cm tall blond-haired, blue-eyed Swedes walking across the border, but people with more Amerindian blood in them.
The Republicans, if they want to get the Hispanic vote back, had better jettison the virulently intolerant, neo-fascist, populist, nativist wing of their party. Otherwise, we, the Garcias and Rodriguezes of the USA, will stay away from the Republican party that sounds increasingly rooted in 1908 and not 2008.
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Mark Wiscon,
Well said, that man!
Peace and Diversity
ed
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While my heart goes out to people who are just trying to have a better life, we as Americans need to understand that not everyone can immigrate here. Amnesty for the already estimated 12 million illegal immigrants probably should be granted but, we need to do something about this problem. #56 Oldsouth is pretty much correct. I would call myself a liberal but, we need to buckle down on this issue. Again like Oldsouth said, just try to immigrate to Mexico or own land ever; it's not going to happen. Illegal immigrants are a huge burden on social services, at least in my state they are. I think the health issue is a little me complex than just the illegal immigrants; we also have 47 million of our own uninsured. The point is we need to work to solve this issue. It is not going away; issues of this magnitude do not just go away. I know our government officials are worried about being seen as insensitive but, it's time to do something in the interest of the American people for once. We need a structure like that of the UK or something. While solving this problem we need to make sure that we make citizenship accessible to all class stratifications of other countries and take away all of the bureaucratic b.s. that makes it take so long to become a U.S. citizen. That is a deterrent. We can do is a responsible manner.
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# 101
Like most USA citizens, you have no concept of America's history and geography. Subjects not taught in the schools you attended. But than again, "Americans" are not very keen on world history, geography, much less on foreign language, are they? The fact is you not only ignore history, you simply change it to suit your fancy.
First, half of the USA was Mexican from the period of around 1820-1846 after centuries of brutal rule from a European country (Spain), like the British in India and Africa. Than you invaded it using the masses of European mercenaries like the Irish, Italians, French, Germans who were suffering from famine and or British rule. And don't give the bull your ancestors "bought" the land from Mexico. Most countries don't sell "land" under the point of guns. Mexico was weak, the land was underpopulated, and once most the native indigenous populations were murdered, raped and poisoned, you white "Americans" invaded the land. One could historical say that everything you have is, or was stolen, at the point of a gun.
As for illegal immigration, you are leaving one important aspect in your evaluation. Want to talk about the illegal invasion of Iraq or other middle eastern countries? Who are the "illegal" invaders there? The fact the PAX Americana worked in the American Northern Hemisphere doesn't mean it will work in the Middle Eastern countries much less in Asia, Africa, Europe and Hispanic America. There is a saying that when the USA invades or makes war with other countries, Hispanic America breathes peace and freedom! Your idea of "democracy" is only a gimmick for invading other lands. Perhaps it's because you do not understand the difference between "illegal" immigrants invading a land looking for work and one who illegally invades another land to loot, rape, murder and torture it!
I realize that most of the individuals on these posts are USA citizens but the fact the the post itself is not, you might not appreciate the truth. But than, truth, justice and tolerance is not a virtue in the USA as the present national, international and financial crises attests to it.
And that is the reason why a presidential Democrat who happens to be of black and white extraction (and whose black human ancestors build "America" on their backs) won the hearts, not only most of USA citizenry, but the entire world at best!
You should now be able to hold your head high. But on the immigration issue, the only thing that is going to stop the activity is if you folks start paying a decent wage to farm workers that are available, give them benefits on health, education and pensions, treat them right on the work floors or pick the crops yourself and help the nation get back on it's back once more. The USA is the only country which have a majority of fat lazy people who are forever hungry! And what are the chances of making these fat lazy people working on the fields? We all know the answer to that one, don't we? Without the illegal Mexican workers, the USA might have to use forced prison labor since it got the most young men and women incarcerated than all the other countries put together! It's not so coincidental, is it?
Most Illegal Mexican immigrants paid social security taxes, medicare and other taxes to social causes, now that they are being thrown out of the country once more, the USA government is pocketing the money, once more. Are you going to return it to their rightful owners or give it to your dysfunctional thieving corporations? We also all know the answer to that one, don't we all?
Finally, if the USA has a problem with illegal immigration, it's because of it's greedy lazy population looking for cheap ways to live high on the hog!
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foxtrottango1,
Point of information: Obama's black ancestors lived in Kenya, so they were victims of the British Empire, not the USA.
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102. At 3:38pm on 15 Nov 2008, foxtrottango1 wrote:
"Like most USA citizens, you have no concept of America's history and geography".
You got all that, from that paragraph I wrote at 1:30 am PST? Don't begin to tell me what I do and don't know. You don't know me. I understand history and geography, I am not Sarah Palin. While I agree with some of your points, I think you are reading WAY too much into what I said. Are you a U.S. citizen? Visting the U.S. doesn't count. I think you are over generalizing everything in some of your statements because you truly do not know. I don't claim to have all the answers either but, I am not arrogant about it. Hold my head up high? I don't think I need someone is literally faceless to me to tell me when to hold my head up high. You leave that to me, thanks.
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102. At 3:38pm on 15 Nov 2008, foxtrottango1 wrote:
# 101
Like most USA citizens, you have no concept of America's history and geography. Subjects not taught in the schools you attended. But than again, "Americans" are not very keen on world history, geography, much less on foreign language, are they? The fact is you not only ignore history, you simply change it to suit your fancy.
First, half of the USA was Mexican from the period of around 1820-1846 after centuries of brutal rule from a European country (Spain), like the British in India and Africa. Than you invaded it using the masses of European mercenaries like the Irish, Italians, French, Germans who were suffering from famine and or British rule. And don't give the bull your ancestors "bought" the land from Mexico. Most countries don't sell "land" under the point of guns. Mexico was weak, the land was underpopulated, and once most the native indigenous populations were murdered, raped and poisoned, you white "Americans" invaded the land. One could historical say that everything you have is, or was stolen, at the point of a gun. "
Apart from the howler that you omit the french colonies (Louisiana purchase) this is largely true.
Also this was the way of all colonial societies. Australia, New Zealand, Canada, SA, all treated their indigenous people hideously.
As far as I know only Australia has ever formally apologised.
I sometimes wonder if it is the way they treated the native Americans that makes the US (and Australia) so keen to forgive Israel its atrocities against the indigenous people of the Middle East, ie they are in the way and a national embarrasment.
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104. At 7:11pm on 15 Nov 2008, ladycm wrote:
102. At 3:38pm on 15 Nov 2008, foxtrottango1 wrote:
"Like most USA citizens, you have no concept of America's history and geography".
You got all that, from that paragraph I wrote at 1:30 am PST? Don't begin to tell me what I do and don't know. You don't know me. I understand history and geography, I am not Sarah Palin. While I agree with some of your points, I think you are reading WAY too much into what I said. Are you a U.S. citizen? Visting the U.S. doesn't count. I think you are over generalizing everything in some of your statements because you truly do not know. I don't claim to have all the answers either but, I am not arrogant about it. Hold my head up high? I don't think I need someone is literally faceless to me to tell me when to hold my head up high. You leave that to me, thanks."
The point was crudely made but it is true that history seems to be taught badly in the US, Alistair Cooke, a dedicated Americanophile said as much.
However the US is not the only country at fault here. In the UK there are only two periods of history - Henry VIII and his wives and WWII.
If it is not Tudor or WWII, then it is largely ignored.
History is more comprehesively taught in NSW, but then there is not much of it (none) before 1788, and teachers are usually desperate to find enough to teach.
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99, mark.
My family came to the United States between 1897 and 1907. As I am very old I remember the talk around the table of my grandparents, great aunts and uncles, as well as my parents and their siblings.
Never once did I hear talk of discrimination. I am sure there was plenty of it, but it never affected them. Their purpose in coming here was to earn money, go into business, and send their children to college. I don't think they cared what others thought.
They worked hard and succeeded. Their children went to college. The first one graduated in 1901. Maybe they were made of sterner stuff than the immigrants of today. Thye certainly were less sensitive.
I do not condone discrimination and, as a family, we have never practiced it. But get beyond it. Set your goals and laugh at those who said you couldn't make it.
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107, a further remark.
I do remember something my grandfather did which took advantage of discrimination. He never paid his taxes and when the tax collector (whoever he was in those days) came around to his shop to question him, my grandfather acted poor and stupid and suddenly forgot he spoke English. The guy was taken in and left with a shrug. (Dumb immigrants, right?)
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#106
I respectfully disagree with your statement that "if it's not Tudor or WWII, than it's largely ignored."
Having been assigned to a British Royal Air Force Bomber Command base back in the late 1958's, I discovered that the majority of the population and the UK school children had a total knowledge of their history and knew most of the the Western Hemisphere's countries by name and where they were located. England didn't become an true empire by not teaching their school children their world history, world geography and other world languages. While European and the rest of the world teach their school children world history, world geography and world languages, the USA educational system bases it's educational system on a repressive nationalistic "English Only" law (A version which is a bastardization of the King's English).
I wouldn't compare the educational level 0f the students in the USA with those of the UK's (or even in parts of Europe) Shucks, even college students in the USA can't even name or located most of the lt's fifty states, much less pronounce or point to the map of other countries. For that matter, even the republican vice-presidential nominee couldn't even point to Africa or Hispanic America. In fact, up to the 1960's and 1970's, most of the northern and southern regions of the USA didn't even know New Mexico was a state of the USA! Even as far back in late 1970, most thought that going to New Mexico required a passport of some short. The fact prompt an incoming New Mexico governor to put USA on all New Mexico's license plates only attests to the ignorance the education in the USA in regards to history and geography and languages. The sad fact is, the USA has the largest dropout rate in the secondary schools (high school) which attests to the highest prison population in the entire world. Of course, that depends if one is a black or Hispanic dropout.
That said, I know that most white non-Hispanic USA citizen do not like what I say, but I also do not like what they say or feel about Hispanics, and much more so about Mexican-Americans. Mexican-Americans along with Mexicans have been targeted for just about any derogatory comment than can be hurled from an institutionalized bigotry movement supported by the Christian conservative right wing republicans and news media. That is one reason why the Hispanic and much more so the Mexican American vote went to the Democratic party. We, like other American democrats made a historical difference in the USA political system.
And it's not over yet! If the USA wants to get in with good terms throughout the Hispanic America Western Hemisphere than it better start learning how to respect the Mexican-American, the Mexican and people in other parts of the world. We are the bridges and gates to the America! If the USA wants to quarantine, isolate or disassociate itself from the rest of the Americas, than the Russians, the Chinese and the Africans will have the door opened to them, as they are now doing.
The so called "PAX Americana" that the right wing neo-conservative, Neo-fascist Republican Party had in mind for the Americas and the world has turned to mere speculation. A complete failure.
And for those that don't like to hear or read what I have to say, please, please, don't give me the crap that I don't "love" America" It's not America that I dislike, it's the ignorant arrogant portion of that "America" that I detest and I might add, there seem to be no shortage of them at present.
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I recall that students in a third-year USA university Political Science course did not know the capital city of Canada!
The public discourse conveys the idea that knowledge of things foreign is somehow subversive.
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110
thats umm I know it, no ,shhhh, don't tell me. no I got it, its on the tip of my tongue ,
Wassilla. That's it;)
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Foxtrottango1,
Britain may have become an empire and taught its children world history in addition to English history, but until quite recently there was very little Scottish, Welsh or Irish history in the curriculum, even in the rlevant nations....;-)Slainte
ed
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112, Ed.
All countries seem to have tunnel vision. Certianly when I studied history as a child I got the impression that the modern era began with Greece and Rome. I only learned later of the vast Persian Empire that preceded it.
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#113
Just think, The ancient magnificent Persian city of Baghdad was raped, looted and destroyed and with it "the Arabian Nights, Ali Baba and forty Thieves" vanished from our dreams forever by a 20th Century Vietnam War deserter who became president of the USA by using what he knew best, lying through his teeth!
But it the world who is at fault for not stopping this madman from destroying one of history's World's heritages.
There was no need for the destruction! And the entire World was the loser for it. Than there are men in history who will built and there are madmen who will destroy!
History will not be kind to GW Bush and his henchmen!
Sorry, but that's the way it is. The 20th Century Vietnam War deserter not only murdered Ali Baba, he also stole our dreams of the Arabian Nights forever! Like the Spanish during the beginning of the 1500 hundreds who destroy and burnt those magnificent Aztec buildings, books, literature simply because they couldn't understand the culture, the art and the knowledge possessed for centuries.
Like the Spanish Empire during the 1500's destruction of Mexico City, Nazi Germany during the 1939-1945 rampage through Europe, the USA will be remembered for the destruction of Baghdad for the next 500 years!
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Latino is better than "Hispanic." Good lord, Mr. Webb, you've been in this country how long now?
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#113, allmymarbles: That's true, for almost all nations on earth. For example, you never learn much about Carthago - after all, the great, civilized Romans destroyed it, so it can't be important, can it?
Besides, in some schools history starts much later - for the Swiss 'Matura' history exam, e.g., you're not supposed to know anything preceding the foundation of that 'relatively free and democratic society', meaning the US. Obviously, they think anything before that isn't really worth mentioning. It's quite shameful, really, especially as the Swiss education is supposed to be not too bad!
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Latinos, or Latinas, are people born in Latin America, or their descendents. Hispanics are, strictly speaking, Latinos who come from Spanish-speaking nations like Mexico or Cuba. Latinos from non-Spanish nations like Brazil are not Hispanics, but the distinction is not widely recognized.
Yes, Hispanic or Latinos, are the fastest growing segment of voters in the US. That is a recent trend though, and was manufactured by Democrats, led by Ted Kennedy, in the 60s and 70s.
Immigration patterns traditionally mirrored the US population as a whole. The vast majority of immigrants came from Europe. A smaller number came from Latin America, Asia and Africa. That pattern was consistent throughout US history.
In the 60s and 70s, Democrats made the decision that immigration from impoverished nations should be the goal of US policy. They announced the new immigration laws in moral terms, saying that America had an obligation to open its doors to people who were suffering. They neglected to mention that immigrants from third world nations in Latin America and Africa were much more likely to vote for Democrats than were immigrants from Europe, or even Asia.
Today, a Russian, Czech or Lithuanian must wait years for entry into the US, if entry is ever granted. While legal immigration from Latin America can also be difficult, those who enter illegally are often ignored, and any of their children born in the US are US citizens. And every 20 years (In 1960, 1980 and a failed attempt in 2006) a blanket amnesty has been granted to Latinos who are in the US illegally.
In "hip" Democratic circles, the Eisenhower years are looked down on as the last "white bread" years. There was and is a desire to make traditional American values a thing of the past. Ted Kennedy and company knew that, in the long run, the face of America would have to be changed. Only in that way could the Eisenhower/Reagan power structure be replaced. So far, they seem to be succeeding.
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The thing with imagration for me is i dont care if you are here legally and can speak english of some sort its alright. but if your here and your dont have a green card or something you need to get one and become a American citizen.
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