Confirming our prejudices
As the post mortems continue on the Republican side the idea that the media essentially stole the election for Obama is a pervasive theme supported (they say) by this kind of evidence.
Is it true? Perhaps is the answer provided here. But wait. We know that electors' brains work oddly - we know they tend to remember and enjoy affirmative information about a favoured candidate and block out dissonance, from whatever source. I wonder whether all the documentary proves is that this indeed happens. I would be interested to know whether a similar number of McCain supporters would have been able to parrot all the anti-Obama lines but might have been "ignorant" of McCain's view that the fundamentals of the economy were sound, or Palin's view that the view of Russia from her state somehow constituted foreign policy experience? I see the documentary maker has offered to pay for a similar poll if it turns out that Republicans were as deluded...
This is the offer: "Ziegler's offered a double-or-nothing deal to anyone who wants to recreate the same poll for McCain voters. If that survey shows the same results, he'll pay the cost of both polls, but if the results are significantly different, the challenger has to pay for both polls (reimburse Ziegler for the first)."
Who dares come up with the cash?
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Dear Justin Webb
Please see Ed Iglehart's post at # 102 on the previous thread and then say that you're sorry to us all for not keeping up.
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This is all a moot point. The reason Obama was elected was multi-faceted ranging all the way from brilliant strategy and national campaign infrastructure to the key point that he was clearly the brightest and the best.
Now, let's concentrate on helping him make everything happen so we can make positive gains as a nation with this unbelievable Bush legacy.
We cannot waste good energy looking in the rear view mirror. Leave that to the historians.
We must concentrate on the here and now because the whole world is suffering because our lack of morality in an aggressive war and our sleezy non-regulated financial system.
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All of the documentaries and conspiracy theories in the world cannot cover up the fact that the Republican party has been very successful in alienating many different factions in the party. Libertarians, Fiscal Conservatives, Moderates, etc.
As a former Republican myself, in this election several friends and co-workers whom I would have expected to stay home rather than vote for a Democrat turned out for Obama in '08.
I dearly hope the Republicans lose big again in 2010, hopefully then the party leaders will stop listening to the Religious conservatives and Neo-cons and start appealing to the mainstream.
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It seems that this confirms what we already know - voters are more concerned with presentation and gut instinct. When Kinnock was running for PM in the UK voters didn't like him because, amongst others, of his ginger hair!
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The media leans heavily towards the political left? Wow. Say it isn't so! Next thing you'll be telling me is that the earth is round.
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Ah, a shoot the messenger strategy. More serious Republicans are looking at:
This means the end of the Southern Strategy as formulated by Nixon back in the 1960s. Race is no longer the main determining factor in how many states now will vote; younger middle class voters went gone to college with multi racial classmates and work with people of different races; they are now colour bind when it comes to voting.
The sight of a republican President pleading for massive injection of Federal money to shore up the banks in the worst economic crisis thus far.
That Republicans appeared too uncaring about the economic plight of the ordinary person.
That the demographic profile of the USA has changed over the past 20 years. Many younger voters see a larger state role as being a positive thing.
Republican politicians being caught up in recent corruption scandals.
That many evangelical voters stayed home; the Palin factor didn`t win them over.
This article by PJ O`Rourke is also quite an insightful place to start a more meaningful debate.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/015/791jsebl.asp
If the Republicans just believe that `it was the media that done it`; they`ll heavily lose the next two or three elections as well.
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Zeigler at his best
;-)
ed
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Zeigler refuses to disclose the amount. Some wager!Peace and lying down with pigs
ed
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Unfortunately, all of this is too little too late.
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Who cares about the Republican conspiracy theories at this point? Don't you have anything more worthwhile to say?
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As're talking about coming up with cash, no one has mentioned today's announcement that a metro system is going to be built in Baghdad.
Question ~ Is this proposal
(a) insane
(b) a joke
(c) a sign that the Iraquis have more money than sense, and that we ought to get out and let them get on with it.
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Oh pleeez this is so "shoot the messenger" and illogical. Contrary viewpoints expressed worldwide are simply:
(1) that Obama is more photogenic, and appears more intelligent and reasonable than McCain...ergo Obama gets the vote. "Testing" the extent of people's scandal and rumor recall is just silly.
(2) McCain/Palin seem to have expected a media "touch-up" so that they would appear equally photogenic, intelligent and reasonable (despite their actual appearance and substance) -- otherwise it isn't "fair" - there was a twilight zone episode about this I'm sure. Palin's claims that she appears incoherent solely because of biased media coverage are....incoherent.
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I'm not so sure it's the media's fault. Obama message was change, and that turned into a love-in. And like all love affairs, we tend to don our blinders and see only what we want to see and hear. Maybe the media fell in love too, after all, they're human too (sometimes). But the media is supposed to be objective - ha! If you believe that one---you know the rest.
If we Americans were giddy with Obama, so was the rest of the world. Were we all had? Time will tell.
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Are people seriously prepared to waste this time on this blithering idiocy.
Obama's media campaign worked, Mccain's failed. Republicans will have to do better next time.
There are two candidates one is going to win and one is going to lose,this time it happened to be a republican.
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Perhaps it was a let-down this time from Rove's abilities to manipulate media and scandals. Perhaps people are confusing the effect of 'bloggers' with the 'mainstream media' (it is clear from interviews that Palin has confused them with respect to baby rumors). Perhaps the GOP is not taking into account the democrats' use of the internet. Perhaps a reform campaign against its own incumbent party was just too weird to overcome even racism.
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So by "Our Prejudices" you mean the BBC's? As for the American electorate, they merely went for the better candidate, despite extraordinary attempts to smear him. Once in awhile, things turn out right.
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Justin.
Were you just returning from an interview with President Bush, Ms Palin, or Ken Dodd when you wrote this article?
"the idea..., [they say]..., Perhaps.., But wait., brains work oddly..., I wonder whether..., might have been..., somehow..., if..., if..., if...,
A masterpiece .
Must agree with Nick-Gotts # 10.......
Don't you have anything more worthwhile to say?
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My feeling is that a majority of the columnists and opinion writers were probably leaning towards Obama. This is wholly understandable though, seeing as it's been standard GOP policy over the last fifteen years to rile up their base by ranting about "Northeastern Media Elites". You had the Republican VP candidate effectively say that anyone living in a city isn't a proper American. Can you really blame the media intelligensia for preferring someone else?
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The evidence is overwhelming that the media are not only "confirming our prejudices" but constituting them. These polls likewise reinforce those extreme prejudices. Both the media and these and most other polls, of whatever other value they may contain, confirm the near-blanket prejudice for the fraudulent one-party system with its two interchangable facades, Republicans and Democrats. The election is already "stolen" under such circumstances. No matter which power block of rival elites wins the patronage contest, the system in the end wins again. The media, as well as polls such as this, systematically "block out dissonance" about the Duopoly Party racket "from whatever source". They also stringently "block out" dissonant third-party candidates. "All the documentary proves is that this indeed happens." And as long as it does, there's no 'hope' of any real 'change'.
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I don't think that there was any prejudice involved in the Election of 2008, on Affirmative Actiion. My action was affirmed to vote for Obama-Biden when I heard chants of "Kill Him--Kill Him," and learn of the fact that I was not a Real American from the lips of Sarah Palin. So I just had to vote Demacrat to prove that I was real. Unreal peoples are so usless, just like out of date plitical danasaurs passing passing themselves as 21 century leaders.
Three things are over: The 20th century and its mode of thinking on small things like dropping napalm; Race Baiting, and Colonialism. By 2012 maybe someone will tell the Reptilian Right, I got that expression from Bill Moyers, that rable rousing and encouraging a mop of dedicated christian minded thinkers to kill a candidate because he or she does not share your so-called values is a crime tenemount to treason.
No I don't see prejudice, just ignorance.
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7 & 8
Damn it, Ed, you beat me to it!
That was the funniest post I have ever seen at 538.
If there is any doubt that Ziegler is anything but a raving lunatic, that transcript should put an end to it.
By the way, I had read that Ziegler revealed the cost of the poll on Fox. It cost 13,000 dollars.
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The problem with most republicans was that they were and still are behind the times.
What they concentrated on most during the Bush years were issues that would have taken us backwards in time or just stay the same.
intelligent design
try to ban abortion
ban stem cell research
deny global warming
outsource jobs for larger profits
make hummers and the largest cars possible
deny gay rights
preemptive wars
The list goes on. None of these things help me get health insurance, lower the price of food or gas etc. Now if the media jumped on the Obama bandwagon it was for many d@#n good reasons.
If they want to continue to pusue these agendas, I think (i hope) the world will just pass them by. The one constant is change. Get with the program, and I don't mean the one you get on sunday mornings.
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Eek, Justin, isn't Nate Silver in your RSS feed? Isn't that, like, a disciplinary offence for a reporter, or something?
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The media isn't alienating the republicans, they are doing that all on their own. All they have to do is open their mouths and speak. It seems lately they keep moving further and further to the right side of the spectrum. Which in turn means, they are representing less and less people. I just cannot figure out why they keep digging themselves into a deeper and deeper hole? What happened to the party of Abe Lincoln?
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Even if you are totally cynical and believe that everything "the media" says is coordinated and solely intended to boost profits, you have to acknowledge that you do that telling people things they don't like is a bad way to make money.
I don't agree that "the media" leaned toward Obama, but if they did the cynic must admit they were only pandering to the majority.
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6 sheffTim:
Wow! That was awesome! I feel for the guy, he is obviously doomed to deep and abiding disappointment at the stupidity of humanity. Having said that, I actually agreed with a couple of things he said (mainly on issues of liberty I suspect), but what stood out was: his equating of liberalism not only with big and intrusive government, but with moral abasement; his grudging acceptance that the will of the people should prevail, even in moral issues; and his almost incoherent rage at modern life. lol.
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24 ladycm:
Of course if you are many degrees plus to the right the MSM is bound to seem a little skewed! : )
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16 Gary_A_Hill
What you call "smear" of Barack Obama was mostly fact that you choose to characterize as 'smear'. I watched this electoral campaigning with a good deal of intensity, and the fact is that Obama lied on a number of issues, not least his relationship with Jeremiah Wright. In defiance of what should have been evident to anyone with a modicum of intelligence and perception, most of the electorate gullibly swallowed his implausible claim of never in 20 years having heard a racist utterance. His ties with Bill Ayers, Tony Soprano, and Louis Farrakhan, was also a comment on his instincts and thus his character. So was his lying about supporting the abortion procedure that involved allowing babies who survived abortion to die, and then accusing those who exposed his position of lying.
But never mind, when individuals abandon a moral compass this is what you get. Little to no ability to judge a man's character and counting as of little consequence their lack of integrity. Pathetic! As I said before, Obama's record as a senator in both Illinois and Washington is insignificant, but never mind, from little or nothing he will perform wondrous miracles. How dumb can you get!
I now await the howls of wrath and chorus of pathetic accusations! Well vent your spleens, what you detest is truth.
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25 just:
Quite! As a good republican would no doubt agree, it is a free market!
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Lame excuse for the republicans. This time around the news media didn't assist with the lies and the mean spirited conservatism that is the norm with the GOP and republicans.
What I witness in much of the rallies held by both McCain and 6-pack Sarah Palin was nothing but accusations and finger pointing, most, if not all, of which were nothing but lies. In fact it seem the only thing missing in many of these republican rallies were the burning of crosses and the hoods and robes worn by the KKK. The GOP is a true exclusive (Hispanic and blacks need not apply) Party Ticket.
It's going to take a lot to clean up the huge droppings the Elephant (the neo-conservatives, neo-fascists, and right wing the religious nuts) left for Democrats. Obama is doing the right things by hiring and allowing republicans to help clean up the mess they created!
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The Glorious 29th!
Peace and Humbug
ed
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Peace and puppiesed
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I am from the UK and so cannot tell what the experience was like in the U.S. We certainly had very pro-Democrat coverage from the BBC. If the U.S. media was anything like the BBC then that would have been immoral.
We have had the distorting effects of the BBCs left wing bias over the last few elections. They once put a out a very left wing play in peak viewing time on BBC1 on the eve of a general election (about the miner’s strike). Even recently the campaign against George Osborne and the pro Gordon Brown stance by the BBC must have had their affects on the Glenrothes election.
Although it is scandalous, does nobody in public life complain? If their bread and butter relies on being in public life (i.e. they are a politician) then they had better not complain! If they are a journalist, a writer or anybody else that relies indirectly on the powerful BBC for a living then they had better not complain.
In any case, if any voices get through (in the unlikely event), remember who has the cameras, the microphones and the transmitters. The BBC can very quickly and loudly counter anything that is off-message.
I am an optimist (or perhaps a dreamer) who believes that the BBC will reform itself one day. As for the U.S., if they are now going down the same sorry path they we have gone down, I pity them.
The result will be increasing voter apathy, politicians all saying the same things, with almost identical BBC-friendly policies. In the UK we are already there and we are in a very dark place indeed.
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I did see a survey which showed that the press
preferred Obama 3-1, which is obviously at odds
with the electorate.
Good thing that the Army prefers the Republicans
by roughly the same margin!
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robloop,
I'm not going to vent any spleen at you. I'm just going to laugh at you. Loud and long. It really has been a treat, watching the varied responses of the raving right to Obama's triumph - some of them suddenly all reason and "moderation", telling Obama that despite his campaign promises he must implement Republican policies; others, like you, whining about how unfair it all was, and repeating the same old smears as if they could still make a difference. Keep it up, robloop, keep it up, I'm really enjoying it!
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The road to Nowhere
And here's to a Happy Christmas!ed
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I believe the republicans have changed. They used to represent the family oriented, god loving, down to earth people. Now they represent religious fanatics, unworldly, racist people. (Of course some of the more extreme family oriented, god loving, down to earth people are still there)
Thus, the media did not side with anyone, but side with the main group of people. Just that the support base of the party changed. The will be media like FOX that support the religious fanatics, unworldly, racist people, but you cannot expect the majority of media to do that.
And polls are base on the question asked and is never impartial. So poll proves nothing if the question are not make properly.
Nice try Justin, still trying to blame others for the lost of your hero in the election.
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36 ed:
Free? I'm in!
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Maybe they can ask the government for some bailout cash? Seems like everyone & their dog's pet flea is asking for some.
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#35 Nick-Gotts
Laugh, it bothers me not one iota. As to me "whining", actually, no whining or complaining how 'unfair' anything is, I just bluntly stated what I observed and about the superficiality and stupidity that accompanied this election. Even about that you couldn't tell the truth. And actually, I really don't believe you when allude to considering what I wrote so amusing. It really wasn't that funny.
#33 KennethM
Interesting you should state what you did about the BBC's pro-Democrat reporting slant during the U.S. elections.
I was so disgusted that I finally wrote (despite all quite courteously) to the BBC editor to inform him that I had expected far more from the likes of Matt Frei and Katty Kay. In reality they simply parroted the often mindless garbage served up by the pathetic likes of CNN and other U.S. stations. Often you could have been forgiven for imagining that some were in Democrat employ. Very disappointing!
Re the BBC, in fact, there was no criticism or raising of questions, or, it would seem, any investigation into questions that surrounded Obama - which, as you can see, is brushed aside as 'smears'. Some might be, but there is more than enough to raise serious questions and doubts. Never mind that, the BBC was not going to be drawn into anything contentious.
Journalism generally covered itself in shame during this election. Superficiality took precedence over substance.
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Enough already! Of course much of the press was pulling for Obama, but that was not the determining factor.
The GOP lost because its leadership lost sight of the basic fact that they had been put in office by conservative voters--who were both fiscally and culturally conservative.
They spent money like drunken sailors, and assumed they could keep the base 'on the plantation' by making the appropriate noises on a few cultural issues.
They were wrong. They lost.
They forgot who they were, and why they were there. Then, the economy suddenly went south, and Hank Paulson trotted out his 'TARP', and stampeded most of them into voting for his travesty.
They were humiliated at the polls a few weeks later.
Not the fault of the press. They helped, but the GOP leadership is responsible for the debacle.
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#40 robloop
Its not that the media and the voters failed to investigate the so called smears, it is simply that those issues are largely irrelevant.
Firstly, everyone knows that in a gathering of either mainly white or black people, they must surely have a dig at the other race. Should we now start probbing into all of McCain's or Palin's association to prove that? Verdict - waste of time.
Then you talk about his association with Ayers and co. For Christ's sake, even Obama chronicled in his book how he was an activist for the black/left cause. Are we now going to lampoon people for following a different political ideology in their youth? Verdict - I see that former KKK members win elections in the US too.
You talk about abortion whatever. Well, the fact is - do you support abortion or not? All these other issues surrounding the topic are simply semantics. Verdict - Obama is pro-choice.
Does flying a jet and got shot down make someone CinC material? Obama's victory is not a reward for some exuberant performance. It is rather the triumph of the intrinsic goodness in humanity to recognize quality even at its cradle.
Obama only needs to do a little to undo Bush's cataclysm and he will have done enough
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I am one of those conservative fundamentalist Christians so much ballyhooed by all right - er, correct-thinking people. I voted for Obama.
W and the Republicans have betrayed my conservative values so violently that my stomach has been in uproar all year. Today Robert Reich told me that of the $350 billion given to financial institutions in my name, a third went to AIG (who doesn't make loans), and the rest was distributed in dividends to stockholders of failed institutions, paid to top executives of failed institutions as bonuses, and spent to buy up competitors. None has been lent to improve liqidity.
And there are the executive performances in Iraq, Afghanistan, New Orleans under those hurricanes - each only an excuse for largess, unprecedented largess to corporate buddies. Makes me wonder about the kind of opportunity 9/11 presented. Honesty, integrity, and transparency are core conservative values.
GW Bush, Cheney, and Paulson never belonged to my demographic. McCain never gave evidence he actually saw us on his radar, or acknowledged the ugliness of the elephant in the room.
As a thinking person and pseudo intellectual-on-the Right, I purchased and read Obama's books. Do you know what I concluded? He is my kind of leader - he has my kind of heart, and I like the way he thinks about this country that I love. This was before the press had anything much to say about him except 'upstart'.
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43. KScurmudgeon:
Very well said. Good point about AIG, turns out they are still flying around on private jets. Corporate welfare anyone? It makes me absolutely sick. If you are conservative, you should be pissed off especially. What do we have to lose with Obama? Our current administration has already lost or thrown away the respect that any other nation has had for this country. Thrown away their very own core values, thrown away the middle class. I hope we have washed our hands of this finally. I really believe we have, but only time will tell.
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For a good laugh (and exposure of John Ziegler as a poor statistician): http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/interview-with-john-ziegler-on-zogby.html
Frankly, I am hoping that the right wing continues to delude itself this way. Please! More complaints about the media! More videos "exposing" the "truth" about Obama! More hateful conservative rhetoric!
Bring it on. It will make them look like raving lunatics in the current centrist, problem-solving political environment. And that marginalization of conservatives is the kind of change this country needs.
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gunsandreligion:
"Good thing that the Army prefers the Republicans by roughly the same margin!"
While perhaps true, this statement is of course irrelevant. All that matters is that the Army is a professional institution. Soldiers salute and complete the mission no matter who the commander-in-chief is. So when it comes to following orders, they will "prefer" Obama by 100-to-0.
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OK, Justin, I reread the title of your post and now I realize that the whole thing was probably ironic. You're pretty sly!
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Crying over spilt milk.
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Most Americans did not need a poll to tell them they are worse off than they were eight years ago as wages decline, food and fuel costs rise and healthcare remains tied to jobs they could be laid off from at any time. They voted with their pocketbooks.
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# Ralphma
If you need more hateful reaction to the good Obama, just have a look at the words of Cardinal Stafford who holds the impenetrable title of Apostolic Penitiary of the Holy See.
According to the Cardinal, Obama is 'aggressive, disruptive and apocalyptic'
Yer whaaaaa ?
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What's that? The media influencing the general public? No way. Pls stop this misinformation
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is this the John Zogby who claimed a victory for US pollsters on Nov 4 using the fact the the actual poll was
52 - 46
and the final Zogby poll was;
54 - 42
http://www.zogby.com/features/featuredtables.cfm?ID=170
Pollsters in general are a joke and the self agrandising ones like Zogby are hilarious!
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#33 KennethM
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Further to # 50, it is deeply ironic that the Cardinal delivered his Obama 'aggressive and disruptive' speech on the same day that the Al Queda No. 2 also denounced the new President.
Although they base their commnents on different ideologies, their kneejerk hostility is couched in the same language.
Whilst the rest of the world sees a strong and thoughtful new leader emerging at a time when what the world was crying out for is a strong and thoughtful new leader, the hard-line religionistas fall back into a language of hostile negativity.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I've been following US politics for just over a decade.
For a log time, it seemed to me that the Democrats and their supporters thought they had an inate right to govern, that they were better people by default, and that anyone who disagreed with them was either stupid, evil, or insane (or all three).
I think that was a major factor in them losing in 2000 and 2004.
As of this campaign, they seem to have (mostly) got over that.
At the same time, the Republicans and their supporters have been acting as though they had an inate right to govern, that they were better people by default, and that anyone who disagreed with them was either stupid, evil, or insane (or all three). And then throwing in accusations of being a traitor/terrorist/un-American as well.
Also, we've just had 8 years of Republican government (and 6 years with control of all branches) during which they've had multiple screw-ups, and alienated not just their natural opponents, but also (as KScurmudgeon points out) many of their natural supporters as well.
That, IMO, is the main reason the Republicans lost, not media bias.
Regarding media bias:
They may have been some favouring of Obama by the BBC, but just as many people have accused it of favouring other candidates. Ditto for the US media. The real problem IMO wasn't a case of it favouring Obama, or any of the other candidates its been accused of favouring.
Rather, it was the almost complete ignoring of the trailing candidates (e.g. Ron Paul) and the other parties (Green, Lib, etc). Its unlikely they could have won (although if the media had only reported on them, and ignored the Reps and Dems...), but it would have been good to publicise that there are people who disagree with both the major parties, and to make the main candidates defend their policies from them.
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Yes, indeed, the forensic analysis of the theroetical position of many die-hard repbulicans that the media, and not policy, won the election for obama, does need some review.
The political autopsy should be conducted by a politcal Horaio Kaine, with a political eye for the nuances of electoral persuasion.
However, any political forensic pathologist needs to bear in mind the media-blunt-force-trauma dealt to obama by the republicans own media campaign. While this was less well funded, it was perhaps more savage in it's criticisms, and indeded, this may be one factor that turned voters againt McCain and his microwave policies.
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The only positive I take from the Election of this Snake oil Salesman is that he is not Hillary Clinton.
Obama is going to be bad enough, I dread to think what would happen if another member of the Clinton clan was to get into the Whitehouse.
Lets hope she does not end up with a Cabinet Post.
At least we only have to put with this US Administration for Four years, by which time America should realise that the retoric and promises where little more than Electioneering
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Well said, father of Gods! Fraternal Hindsight and Foresight make foe wholeness...
Ditto!Curmudgeon,
Peace and Classical references
ed.
Btw, AIG is probably a bargain at the moment...
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"40. At 03:16am on 20 Nov 2008, robloop wrote:
#35 Nick-Gotts
Laugh, it bothers me not one iota. As to me "whining", actually, no whining or complaining how 'unfair' anything is, I just bluntly stated what I observed and about the superficiality and stupidity that accompanied this election. Even about that you couldn't tell the truth. And actually, I really don't believe you when allude to considering what I wrote so amusing. It really wasn't that funny.
#33 KennethM
Interesting you should state what you did about the BBC's pro-Democrat reporting slant during the U.S. elections.
I was so disgusted that I finally wrote (despite all quite courteously) to the BBC editor to inform him that I had expected far more from the likes of Matt Frei and Katty Kay. In reality they simply parroted the often mindless garbage served up by the pathetic likes of CNN and other U.S. stations. Often you could have been forgiven for imagining that some were in Democrat employ. Very disappointing!
Re the BBC, in fact, there was no criticism or raising of questions, or, it would seem, any investigation into questions that surrounded Obama - which, as you can see, is brushed aside as 'smears'. Some might be, but there is more than enough to raise serious questions and doubts. Never mind that, the BBC was not going to be drawn into anything contentious.
Journalism generally covered itself in shame during this election. Superficiality took precedence over substance. "
Perhaps you might bother learning what journalism is before making yourself look so foolish.
Really one does scrape the barrel when it comes to ignorance about the media and the US.
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I actually had a good look at the questions and results before answering:
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
"200. Before this past election, which political party controlled both houses of congress?" Now that is a tricky one: in 2006 the Democrats were in control of Congress , but not of the Senate, where they had only 49 seats, and were dependent on Socialist Sanders and independent Lieberman, who campaigned for McCain during "this past election". Because the question does not mention a time span, it could be argued that the question refers to the last time any party had control of both houses. That would be the Republicans in 2004. I guess that any neutral examination observer would say that both answer "Republican" and answer "Neither" ("party" obviously being understood here) are correct, so 49% had this tricky question right (and not the 42% Zogby and Ziegler claimed). Come to think of it, the answer "Democrat" simply CANNOT be right, since there is no such thing as a "Democrat" Party in the USA.
"204. Which candidate won their first election by getting all of their opponents kicked off the ballot?" Here the supposedly correct answer is Obama, but this assertion is mere propaganda: in fact, Obama had his Democratic party opponents in the PRIMARY disqualified because they had forged some of the necessary signatures of people supporting them. In the actual election, Obama beat his black Republican opponent, Alan Keyes (who recently transformed into a Bergbot over the birth certificate) with the largest margin in Illinois electoral history. Note that if the primary counts as an election, it could not possibly be interpreted as Obama's "first election", as he was beaten in the Democratic Party's primary for House of Representatives (Illinois 1) in 2000 - by Bobby Rush. Correct answer: none.
"207. Which candidate said that Obama would be tested in his first six months as president by a generated international crisis?" This is supposed to be Biden, but McCain repeated this so often in the last stages of the campaign, that the 20% who answered McCain must be taken as correct as well.
"209. Which candidate said their policies would likely bankrupt the coal industry and make energy rates skyrocket?" Obviously, no politician in his or her right mind would ever say such a thing. Obama only said that he would make it uneconomic to build NEW electricity capacity on the basis of DIRTY coal. That 27.5 % of Obama voters thought it was McCain who said that, is only normal since McCain too pretended to be green before "this past election" AND he repeated the assertion that Obama's policies would LIKELY (that is the cardinal word here) have this effect quite a few times during the last stages of the campaign. Basically this only proves that smears which do not stick are boomerangs on politicians who use them.
Not commenting on the Biden plagiarism claim and the Ayers smear, since that has been done to death here already.
Just remarking that most of what is claimed as info on Obama and Biden is really smears from long ago (except for the redistribution of wealth question of course, which Obama supporters got "Zogby-right", ie actually wrong, by a high percentage), that Obama supporters have had time to absorb and dismiss as irrelevant, while smears-info on McCain and Palin in this survey is from at most two months ago. "Recentism" is what social scientists call this. Nevertheless, I would be interested in what people (Democrats or Republicans, or even non-Americans) would answer to the question "Which candidate was exorcised by an African witch doctor?" [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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To the Moderators are you known going to remove any postings that accuse the NYT of bias and lies?
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#11
I'll say it's a, b, and c.
It's an insane joke that is a sign...etc.
About the media's influence - is it such a bad thing when it is for the greater good? Perhaps, had it not been for such coverage, the majority of the American people would have followed their instincts (hey, no thinking involved!) and McCain would have been elected. But at least it would not be due to biased media...how is that sort of situation preferable, then?
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Speaking of disrupting prejudices...
I guess we'll just have to get used to it.Peace and syntax
ed
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#58 KAS1865
"At least we only have to put with this US Administration for Four years, by which time America should realise that the retoric and promises where little more than Electioneering"
Um, isn't a campaign electioneering by definition? And its hardly as though McCain/Palin tried to fight the election on the issues is it? Aslo this notion that Obama's victory was some sort of media trick is nonsense, have a look at this article and the clear view of one noted Republican:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1711755,00.html?iid=sphere-inline-sidebar
A brief extract:
Feb 10 2008
"the mainstream media's myopic focus on the Democratic race might, in other cycles, be frustrating to Republicans — this year, however, the choice of the Democratic nominee might well decide the fate of the entire election. Some Republicans recognize this; some are actively trying to keep the focus on the Democrats as a ploy to unite a fractured party. On Thursday, for instance, Rush Limbaugh pledged to raise money for a struggling Hillary campaign: "What if she's not the nominee? We've got to make sure she's the nominee if the Republican Party is to be unified. What more loyal thing could I do than to run a fund raiser for Mrs. Clinton?"
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#62 Magickirin:
"To the Moderators are you known going to remove any postings that accuse the NYT of bias and lies?"
Magic try adding a few words like: 'allegedly', 'apparently', 'its been suggested', or 'its my opinion' to your posts rather than acting as if your allegations were proven facts and you migh have a far easier time with the moderators. They are not going to risk a libel suit to indulge your belligerence, seriously a few qualifiers go a long way, just ask Ian Hislop. :)
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If there is anything that this election suggests its that the media no longer has it's same shoot to kill attitude. There were plenty of times in which the media failed to deal the finishing blow to a candidate Rev Wight is an obvious one as is McCains involvement in the Keating Five along with his VP troubles.
I read an interesting article in the weeks precedeing the election based around the arguement that in any other country around the world Obama would have secured a landslide victory weeks before the election. The journalist (can't remember who off the top of my head) put this down to race suggesting that McCain could literally do or say anything he wanted and Obamas poll lead would increase to 6 on the basis that the biggest decider to many McCain voters was down to Obama being black.
Obviously i have more faith in the current generation of USAians than the aforemention journalist, and i confident that he was doing little more than pandering to an ageing seriotype of the racist "Deep South Yankee". In light of this poll, however, it does bring about a more interesting question... Why did media bias (whether you believe obama was unfairly elevated to "god-like" status or that the media was just reflecting the views of it's core audience) have so little an effect on the polls and the final result?
After all, to take the UK as a reference, the introduction of new leaders into the UK scene (i.e the "Brown Bounce" and the numerous times that Mr Cameron has recieved massive poll leads owing to very little political sustinance) lead to poll figures that have varied by approximately +/-20% either way in the past year or so.
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Confirming some more prejudices? Watch the legs.
Peace and arousal
ed
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Obama is untest and inexperienced. His only hope at the job is to surround himself with quality Aides and experienced moderate Politicians, from both sides of the Aisle.
There is no question of a Pro Obama bias in the media during the Electon, something the BBC actually admitted openly on the Flagship "Newsnight" programme on BBC2 Television.
Of course Obama's Colour became a major issue, and was probably the most important single factor in his success. It certainly was not Policy.
Has I have stated on previous threads, Obama took the Whitehouse by pretending to be all things to all men, when it's clear, to anyone who took the time to listen to his speechs and statements, that he has simply appealled to the lowest common denominator, with a mixture of Left wing retoric and vague promises, some of which he already appears to be ignoring
I spoke to a number of Afican-Americans on a recent trip to the US, (Baltimore), who had no idea what Obama stood for but said proudly "Obama is one of us". No one was prepeared or able to discuss any of his "policies" or plans for their Nations future
Is that now qualification for the Office of the most powerful Nation on the Planet.
Obama will fail, not that him doing so will give me any pleasure, and I fear for the future of America and the American people.
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"If you need more hateful reaction to the good Obama, just have a look at the words of Cardinal Stafford who holds the impenetrable title of Apostolic Penitiary of the Holy See.
According to the Cardinal, Obama is 'aggressive, disruptive and apocalyptic'" - eightypercent
I think the word the cardinal was lookin gfor is "uppity".
Keep on whining robloop!
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"Justin Webb's America"
I do not know which America he is talking about, but I do know I have just read the last opinion piece he writes.
How about the BBC sending a qualified journalist to cover the truth.
This country may be alittle to complicated for Justin to understand.
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#69 KAS1865
"Of course Obama's Colour became a major issue, and was probably the most important single factor in his success. It certainly was not Policy.
Has I have stated on previous threads, Obama took the Whitehouse by pretending to be all things to all men, when it's clear, to anyone who took the time to listen to his speechs and statements, that he has simply appealled to the lowest common denominator, with a mixture of Left wing retoric and vague promises, some of which he already appears to be ignoring"
Is it some sort of requirement for the anti-Obama posters to make sweeping declarations without offering a shred of support? My recollection is that during the campaign right wing commentators described Obama as 'elitist' rather than 'lowest common denominator'? Also if you have such a wonderfully accurate crystal ball that shows you the next four years how come it didn't show you the last eight months and spare you a lot of false hope?
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# 60 Simon21
So, what in your view is journalism all about you hopeless clown? After university my occupation was that of reporting for a major city newspaper. It began with court reporting to teach accuracy because if you weren't accurate the courts could and would fine you.
Unlike at lot of the rubbish I've seen that now passes for 'journalism' in North America and slowly infiltrates news services overseas, even the BBC, I was taught to be accurate, to investigate thorough when questions existed, not fabricate drivel that is pleasing to one party, or make my personal comments as if an editorial writer. In effect, I was taught to be objective and truthful and to investigate the facts, something that in journalism is now pitifully lacking.
You haven't a clue what you are talking about, and what really annoys you is that I don't reflect your piffling point of view.
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"62. At 12:38pm on 20 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
To the Moderators are you known going to remove any postings that accuse the NYT of bias and lies?"
Yep its called preventing libel. Now if you want to apply to the NYT....
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Republicans in denial.
Pathetic.
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"71. At 2:23pm on 20 Nov 2008, dennissparks wrote:
"Justin Webb's America"
I do not know which America he is talking about, but I do know I have just read the last opinion piece he writes.
How about the BBC sending a qualified journalist to cover the truth.
This country may be alittle to complicated for Justin to understand."
Well when you find "the truth" do lets us all know.
I am sure journos from all over the world will be beating a path to your door.
The rest of us will live in the real world if that's OK
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"69. At 2:14pm on 20 Nov 2008, KAS1865 wrote:
Obama is untest and inexperienced. His only hope at the job is to surround himself with quality Aides and experienced moderate Politicians, from both sides of the Aisle."
Sort of what he is doing. If only his predecessor had done likewise, instead of selecting a team of right-wing idealogues.
"There is no question of a Pro Obama bias in the media during the Electon, something the BBC actually admitted openly on the Flagship "Newsnight" programme on BBC2 Television."
Did it? When did it do that?
"Of course Obama's Colour became a major issue, and was probably the most important single factor in his success. It certainly was not Policy."
So being black meant he got elected. Fascinating insight. Of course other black men have run for pres before - so what was it about Obama's skin colour that gave him the advantage. was it the shade of black?
If you are very black will you have a better chance then someone who is only faintly brown?
"Has I have stated on previous threads, Obama took the Whitehouse by pretending to be all things to all men, when it's clear, to anyone who took the time to listen to his speechs and statements, that he has simply appealled to the lowest common denominator, with a mixture of Left wing retoric and vague promises, some of which he already appears to be ignoring "
Of course. And Sarah Palin appealed to the Nobel prize winners and resident genius' of the US.
"I spoke to a number of Afican-Americans on a recent trip to the US, (Baltimore), who had no idea what Obama stood for but said proudly "Obama is one of us". No one was prepeared or able to discuss any of his "policies" or plans for their Nations future"
Maybe they felt uncomfortable with your view that Obama's biggest advantage was his skin colour.
Maybe they felt you were not worth bothering with.
"Is that now qualification for the Office of the most powerful Nation on the Planet."
Answer apparently yes. Welcome to politics.
"Obama will fail, not that him doing so will give me any pleasure, and I fear for the future of America and the American people. "
Coming from someone who believes his colour is everything, I think we can have a litle more confidence in the US.
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65. At 1:20pm on 20 Nov 2008, AsaScot wrote:
#58 KAS1865
"At least we only have to put with this US Administration for Four years, by which time America should realise that the retoric and promises where little more than Electioneering"
Um, isn't a campaign electioneering by definition? "
Yes it is interesting the number of contributors, usually from the right who seem not to grasp what an election is about.
They also think journalists are apparently honour bound to give everyone equal attention. Presumably criminals and their victims must all be allowed an equal say.
After each Zimbabwe report RM should (presumably) be given 15 minutes to explain himself.
Where such grotesque ideas come from is a mystery.
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33. At 01:15am on 20 Nov 2008, KennethM wrote:
"The result will be increasing voter apathy, politicians all saying the same things, with almost identical BBC-friendly policies. In the UK we are already there and we are in a very dark place indeed"
If you have a far right agenda. If you don't then things do not look quite so grim.
The chief BBC political commentator used to work for that nest of Left-wing subversives - the Conservative party.
Its chief business correspondent worked for those far left left rags - the Spectator and the Daily Telegraph.
Have they no shame!
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# 73 Robloop
Well, your training in journalism certainly didn't teach you anything about impartiality - or even to check the facts.
When you accused Obama, in your post at #16, of having links with Tony Soprano, I felt that here was a person who allowed their prejudices to get a little out of hand.
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#73 robloop:
"I was taught to be accurate, to investigate thorough when questions existed, not fabricate drivel that is pleasing to one party, or make my personal comments as if an editorial writer. In effect, I was taught to be objective and truthful and to investigate the facts,"
So at what point did you decide that was too much hard work and you preferred simply ranting instead?
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Anyone who voted for McCain must have been deluded.
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"73. At 2:51pm on 20 Nov 2008, robloop wrote:
# 60 Simon21
So, what in your view is journalism all about you hopeless clown? After university my occupation was that of reporting for a major city newspaper. It began with court reporting to teach accuracy because if you weren't accurate the courts could and would fine you."
Well you obviously did not learn the basic fact that Journalism is about news, did you.
So what "major city newspaper" did you work on?
A hand produced rag?
"Unlike at lot of the rubbish I've seen that now passes for 'journalism' in North America and slowly infiltrates news services overseas, even the BBC, I was taught to be accurate, to investigate thorough when questions existed, not fabricate drivel that is pleasing to one party, or make my personal comments as if an editorial writer. "
Sounds like you didn't get very far in your job and that is hardly surprising.
Journalists are required not to act as as annalists recording the days events, they (or their editor) are required to make news decision.
"In effect, I was taught to be objective and truthful and to investigate the facts, something that in journalism is now pitifully lacking. "
Hmm so calling me a "clown" was objective was it? Sounds like abuse to me.
I would learn the meaning of words before using them - did they not teach you that?
"You haven't a clue what you are talking about, and what really annoys you is that I don't reflect your piffling point of view."
More objectivity? As I say your journalistic "career" can't have been a long one.
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KAS (69),
He seems to be taking note of your advice.Peace and teaching Granny to suck eggs
ed
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This theme, from those wallowing in denial, that Obama was treated gently because he is of mixed race, is a whole new invention. Only one more in a whole series of inventions, I would add.
During the campaign most serious commentators (and the SERIOUS pollsters) discussed the so-called Bradley effect and expected it to have an impact - how much of an impact they were not sure. It was only by about Nov 2 or 3 that the polls showed that it seemed irrelevant.
Not that it stopped Ms Palin using coded language to remind people about her perceived 'real' America and claiming herself to be a redneck and proud of it.
Fortunately, the longer the campaign went on the more appalled the majority became at the Palin faction and the more they saw Obama behave with the calmness, purpose and dignity which they would like to see in their president.
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#73 robloop:
"I was taught to be accurate, to investigate thorough when questions existed, not fabricate drivel that is pleasing to one party, or to confuse adverbs and adjectives....
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bj1987 #67
"deep south yankee"? You must not be from the u.s. because thems is fightin' words. The yanks were the people from the north.
My aussie boyfriend made that mistake in a bar in Texas when he first came here, and i suppose he's lucky to be walking. Just a silly observation. It's sad it still is relevant down yonder way.
#28
If Obama turns out to be not so great than I think his supporters will be more gracious in thier attmitance. It was always surprising to me no matter what horrendous murderous acts were commited by G.B. and his administration his followers always found justification somehow and some are still in complete denial.
Incompetence lost the election for the republicans and thy're still looking for a scapegoat somewhere, anywhere.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Gee. I was wondering what all the fuss was about in the thread ending at #83, so I followed the references back to the beginning and discovered I started it, by saying something which got "fruit," I mean "rob loop" riled up! I don't have anything to add; just a humerous observation.
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# 84 ~ LOL
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86. At 4:00pm on 20 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:
This theme, from those wallowing in denial, that Obama was treated gently because he is of mixed race, is a whole new invention. Only one more in a whole series of inventions, I would add.
During the campaign most serious commentators (and the SERIOUS pollsters) discussed the so-called Bradley effect and expected it to have an impact - how much of an impact they were not sure. It was only by about Nov 2 or 3 that the polls showed that it seemed irrelevant.
Not that it stopped Ms Palin using coded language to remind people about her perceived 'real' America and claiming herself to be a redneck and proud of it.
Fortunately, the longer the campaign went on the more appalled the majority became at the Palin faction and the more they saw Obama behave with the calmness, purpose and dignity which they would like to see in their president."
This is largely true but one cannot get over the fact that McCain did not run a good campaign.
He was not a good speaker (important in this role) and seemed to be very erratic.
He tied himself in knots over his attitude to the current administration and his choice of running mate was breathtakingly bad.
Barak Obama went into this race having soundly beaten the formidable Hilary CLinton. Some of us had no doubt he would chew up McCAin, based on that form
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Middle, I suspect "Deep South Yankees" may be a term referring to Northerners with certain unfortunate attitudes.
Peace and understanding
A Southerner
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43. At 06:10am on 20 Nov 2008, KScurmudgeon wrote:
and what he wrote made sense.
Thanks for helping me keep a straight face next time I meet someone who is/was republican.
see the real reason he got in.
it was not because the BBC or others spent much air time bringing up the speaches of all those firey ministers saying all america's problems from 9/11 to katrina were because the weak and depraved americans that are gay, or were gay, or were gay.
those secessionist speeches that we all saw of palin trying to lead the revolution in alaska while spreading the wealth from the oil companies around.
they were every where , never even get to see an ad because up there was the blatant hypocrisy of the GOP, being broadcast to the nation every day.
Oh wait that must be my prozac kicking in,
now I remember
THE PRESS DIDN"T BRING THAT UP.
Too busy talking crud about Obama and responding to the racial baiting.
Too busy bringing clips of preachers doing what preachers should do and exposing some moral truth.
because they were so in the tank for Obama.
Maybe Bloggers were not but the Press were criminal in that they did not bring all that trash on the GOP out, they did not mention or debate whether Mc Cain had called his wife the c word (not Cain).
They did laugh when Mc Cain brought a talking barbie doll out as his big surprise , and they found she could barely talk coherently about any topic, but what are you meant to do .
that would be like telling people that it's not raining as they get soaked.(under a cloud that is releasing water)
At some stage they should all have just been getting comics in to write because that was all the GOP were offering.
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# 92 ~ Simon
Mcain ran a dreadful campaign - I was erring on the side of discretion because I didn't want to start another bunfight !
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JewsNunkie
Is that an anti-Simonic nickname?
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Ooops! In #90 I meant "humorous," of course. "Humerus" is the upper arm bone. "Humerous" must be the funny bone.
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62. At 12:38pm on 20 Nov 2008, thick gherkin wrote:
To the Moderators are you known going to remove any postings that accuse the NYT of bias and lies?
---------------
Probably yes because they could be open to a law suit if they did not.
now if you wish to accuse the BBC they may print you letter,either. but as I found they do not like direct critical letters, really, for if they did I could say"" " has behaved like an educated racist,careful, not stupid."
Or more charitably" He may not be racist but well he sure helped fan it.was that just because he supported the GOP."
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middlecrooney (#88), a former sister-in-law who married an Australian, and who lived in Queensland, referred to it as "the deep north."
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In post 6 sheffTim supplied this link:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/015/791jsebl.asp
... food for republican thought, and amist the tantrum much hilarity for the rest of us. lol.
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That should be 'admist'
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85news junkie
No ,,this is ridiculous. please bring some proof next time;
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all very amusing, especially robloop and KASxxxxxxx, but all in vain I'm afraid......
the election has already happened( aw shucks and say it ain't so Joe)...
Obama is the president-elect, so get over it!!!!! and if you really are interested in finding out why the GOP lost this one, I can only refer you to the most sensible post I have read on here during the entire election process, namely
#43 by KScurmudgeon
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#67,
not to forget the disturbing image of the bursting of the "Brown Bubble" and the proximity of fans...Peace and shelter from the --it storm
ed
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Excerpt from link above (100):
P.J. O'Rourke's conclusion on conservatism:
'Although I must say we're doing good work on our final task--attaching the garden hose to our car's exhaust pipe and running it in through a vent window. Barack and Michelle will be by in a moment with some subsidized ethanol to top up our gas tank. And then we can turn the key.'
giggle ...
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73. At 2:51pm on 20 Nov 2008, robploppy wrote:
I was taught to be accurate, to investigate thorough when questions existed, not fabricate drivel that is pleasing to one party, or make my personal comments as if an editorial writer.
---------------------
so do you always ignore tour teachers?
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101: I mean amidst!
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Where's the love?
The United States is like the guy at the party who
gives presents to everybody and still nobody likes him.
Do you think the party guests are beginning
to notice that the presents were made in
china and that they were bought with money
borrowed(extorted?)from the guests...?
Peace and Coventry
ed
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# 108 Ed's "no one wants to shake hands with Bush" video :
Can anyone tell me who's the jolly little cove to Bush's right in all the pics ?
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Well I never!
Peace and privacy
ed
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Updated: Obama Officials Feel "Boxed In" By Clinton Leaks
Peace and prior formed
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# 110 ~ That reminds me where's Sam these days ?
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109: I think it is the Chinese President Hu Jintao.
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More good analysis from Nate
Just about says it all, I reckon.Peace and persuasion
ed
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# 110 ~ The Sixty Minutes Interview with the Obamas, in all their long-limbed beauty, was interspersed by ads for Viagra.
Whether this was by design or intent, I know not.
If by intent, Viagra spent their money well because the O's give respectability to married sexiness (or even vice versa)
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I'll have to fill in for Sam:
Ooooo Errr Missus! No vice in that versa!Complain about this comment
# 114
Ed:
It may be a little over the sound byte mentality, but
the majority of folk are obedient authoritarians
and thus easily follow Nazis, Marxists or Zionists.
Not surprisingly, there is a very high coincidence of funamentalists and obedient authoritarians.
References on request.
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# 113 Selfevident - I think he's the one on Bush's left. Its the man on the other side who fascinates me - he looks as though he just wandered in from the pub on the off chance of having his photo taken.
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37 - "I believe the republicans have changed. They used to represent the family oriented, god loving, down to earth people. Now they represent religious fanatics, unworldly, racist people. (Of course some of the more extreme family oriented, god loving, down to earth people are still there)"
Oh gosh. Where do I begin? Neither side was ever more "family-loving" than the other and most of my Democratic friends are religious, and certainly "down to earth."
But I do agree that much of the Republican BASE can be considered "religious fanatics, unworldly, racist people" and that the leaders are playing to them as if their lives depended on it. Obviously they've miscalculated in thinking all Republicans agree with them, but they may not be able to play to the center. If they play to the center, they offend their base without a guarantee that they'll pick up centrists who might (rightly) see through the ploy.
A basic sociological principal: If a group tries to correct a member who behaves outside the social norms of the group and it doesn't meet with immediate success, instead of changing their tactics, the group will become more ridgid and bear down harder on the offending member. The Right is like that. When voters reject their tactics, they don't change, they try the same things in a more determined way.
Hang on to your hats.
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#81 AsaScot
In reality I simply prefer antagonizing clowns like you.
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#83 Simon21
A typically stupid response I've come to expect. You haven't a clue what you are waffling on about.
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@96
Yes, my name is very anti-simonic. I have found in many instances that I become deeply predjudiced against people named Simon, even before I get to know them. I guess it's just something I'll have to live with.
@102
I know it's a shocking revalation, especially in the context of America's confederate history, but I can ASSURE you it is true, my sources on this are INCREDIBLY reliable.
I think that if anyone has grounds to complain about the influence of the media in the American election it is Barrack Obama and not John McCain, who had the more aggressive media strategy by far. Muslim terrorist indeed.
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#117
I request references
And i'm just wondering what criteria those 3 ideologies share.
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As for who the media favors. Well a couple of things are involved.
First, the "news" is a BUSINESS - they're trying to sell you something and that something is not a particular candidate, it's THEMSELVES.
Who has the greatest readership, the most hits, the most responses. Bottom line: RATINGS so they can sell advertising to the highest bidder, get the largest salaries. It's all about MONEY.
Second the news is BIG business. Not much independence left folks, it's mostly CORPORATIONS. And who are the owners and stockholders of those corporations? John Q Liberal? Hardly.
So these media moguls decide what the news is. If the news is controversial, so much the better: Controversy sells. If the corporate masters let some of their people show preferences, it's not because they value honesty, it's because it will help stir up controversy.
I noticed a lot of news that was ostensibly pro-Obama that contained some very negative barbs. It was actually more on the line of reverse psychology. Or worse, camouflaged poison: "I give you bitter pills in sugar coating. The pills are harmless: the poison is in the sugar."
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#90 Gary_A_Hill
You're totally wrong on all counts - and don't have anything intelligent to add. And further, there's nothing particularly humorous.
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118 eighty:
I confused left and right! Am not sure, maybe da Silva, the Brazilian president. Seems pretty jovial; crisis, what crisis? lol.
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124 nessie:
Touche!
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The GOP is deluding itself; Obama won because Republicans don't stand for anything. Is it small government? Nope, they've spent every penny and then some on war, weapons and tax-breaks. Is it 'family values'? Nope, Bush's daughters partied hard at Yale, and Palin's daughter got pregnant before she graduated high school. Is it morality? Nope, because for all the attacks on gays, GOP reps and senators have repeatedly been caught in various sexual scandals and hypocrisies on that front. Is it security? Nope, because the TSA is still a mess, and security is inconsistent at airports nationwide, and the we bought off Shia tribesman for billions of dollars, to stop fighting. Is it education? Nope, because No Child Left Behind is really No Standardized Test Left Behind.
Obama won because Americans want leadership, vision, change, discipline, integration with world economies and values.
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Simon21, but when you think you are born to rule, if you fail, it must be the media!
Or, more to the point, if you claim god wants you to rule.
Maybe, just maybe, it had zero to do with the media, but the utter destruction of the whole edifice of GOP economic doctrine.
(And YOU with your tax $ are going to clear it up).
As well as insulting the electors with a VP who was, to put it mildly, a dense, rabble rousing ditz.
Maybe US voters seeing the Taliban on TV, don't want a christian version of them running their lives.
What IS it with the Christian Right (who before he sold his soul, McCain so accurately described) and what goes on in the bedrooms of adults?
Buy some porn if you need to, for god's sake.
Newflash too, you won't 'save' many babies if you got your way, but you'd injure and kill a lot of mothers.
(That'll teach them to be poor?)
Prior to the 1967 Abortion Act in the UK, over 50,000 illegal terminations were carried out per year, a 1000 a week.
Lot's of dead babies and a lot of dead mothers too.
The population of the US is roughly 5 times that of the UK - do the maths.
Maybe the McCain people thought they knew, compromised too much after 2004 by cuddling up to the man who used one of the most disgusting (at least aimed at a white person), slurs to beat him to the nomination in 2000.
Then accepted the witch Palin as his running mate, to excite the 'base'.
A pretty 'base' bunch they are too, as we saw at some rallies.
Maybe not as many Americans are as paranoid, xenophobic and plain ignorant as the GOP expected.
Obama is NOT, as it turns out, from some 'other' place.
(And look what Al Queda think of him in the latest video - that goon sounds rather like Rush Limbaugh!)
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#42 zugental
I contend that a man's associations and conduct tell a lot about him, thus making it an "issue". No, I do not support abortion and marvel at how societies that like to imagine themselves 'civilized' dispense with human life so cheaply.
As to "intrinsic goodness in humanity", if in fact that really existed then humans would be concerned about a person's character. Associations with persons of poor character should speak volumes, but, as I've stated before, when individuals abandon a moral compass evidently it no longer matters to them, but it still matters and I believe that in time this will manifest itself. Further, there is nothing intrinsically good about someone who supports the killing of infants, most of all in it most barbaric forms, not least partial birth abortion and allowing children who survive abortion to die.
So while I thank you for your mostly civil response, I don't agree with you.
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#117, authoritarian my ass. We actually like to stick it to authority (or those who think they know better than us).
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# 119
Yes, the fundamentalist/authoritarian falls back on repression and reaffirmation
Salem (now Davers, Mass.) offers a case history of this.
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#124 nessie1945
You just summed up very nicely what I've struggled with defining for years. The media's only bias is toward market share; while many or most might struggle for objectivity, editorial decisions often go with what sells.
I'd also add the sound byte factor to your description- if it isn't quick and catchy, it won't make the news. People who can't do five second statements don't stand a chance (Joe Biden excepted...)
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I would just like to say Zeigler's questions were not neutral, some of them contained elements of partisan conservative criticism of Obama. Its hardly surprising a mainstream TV network audience had no clue.
However as an editor, Justin himself knows how easy it is to change the meaning of news broadcasts by story selection, and chopping video and speach into snippets.
The real bias is that TV media prefer a candidate who is a great TV performer, with eloquence, who is tall, physically handsome [ok I am relying on views of female family members there] and charismatic.
There is also the fact that he represents a historically put upon minority reaching the pinnacle of the highest responsibility in the USA - a tremendously poweful news story that will run for years giving high ratings.
Diana Syndrome.
If Obama was white, 5' 5", fat and spoke in a monotone do you think anyone would listen to his "progressive" political program?
Any fact that got in the way of the juicy "Diana" story above would have to be played down and minimized.
The economic collapse came as a huge gift to Obama politically - it greatly helped to wash away all TV media doubts about some of his more unfortunate past [?]associations.
That would normally be fair, Obama is from the opposition party,- except for the democratic parties finger prints all over Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac. Heck never let the truth get in the way of a juicy story.
Justin also knew about the Hillery campaign's claims about Obama's people cheating in the caucas primaries.
He swallowed the Obama spin and failed to check - o.k. there is time pressure and lack of resources -we are all human.
However, Obama got a boost in *every* caucus that his share of the popular vote should not have given him. That is a clear indication of something going wrong.
That cheating tells you more about the kind of man Obama is than any TV broadcast. What was cheated and subverted was a democratic process.
If you don't believe in democracy as a politician, just what do you believe in?
IMHO Obama believes in the ruthless pursuit of power by any means necessary, and that the "negative rights" in the constitution will not prevent him from realizing his ideological objectives by "administrative measures."
America's problem is the devotion, unquestioning loyalty and love of many of Obama's supporters - he can do no wrong in their eyes.
This video is pregnant with the future of America:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA0RuvtsiVY
I hope to God I am wrong about this man that everyone in my country and worldwide likes so much.
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When one person takes the time to consider the consequences of their actions and then intelligently decides the best course of action that is NOT prejudice.
When another person makes a choice depending on their emotional state and preconceived notions and they use prejudice.
Now think, by the difinition of prejudice, to whom does that word best apply?
It is the epitome of hypocricy for the second person to acuse the first of bigotry?
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133 - Via
"My idea of an agreeable person is a person who agrees with me."
Or with whom I agree. There are many on the BBC blogs, luckily.
About "sound bites": Right you are!
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115. Eighty
That really is funny.
92. Simon.
Agreed.
McCain could only play the cards he was dealt, which led to the huge gamble in his VP pick, and much else. They were lousy cards. (Compare: Al Gore in 2000, for example. Badly run campaign? I like Gore, too. Not his finest hour.) Even without the cratering economy, would anyone else have done any better trying to run while carrying the Bush albatross/millstone? It would have taken a miracle for any Republican to have won this year. McCain ran out of gas, out of money, and out of miracles. Top marks for one of the classiest concession speeches ever.
And now its good luck to Obama.
As for the Bradley effect, in the circumstancess the margin of victory in the popular vote was surprisingly small.
You may find the following two papers interesting:
Alvarez, Bailey, and Katz at Caltech "The Effect of Voter Identification laws on Turnout", October, 2007.
Overton, "Voter Identification" 105 Mich. L.R. 631.
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Robloop
This an agree to disagree venting process. Maybe you should take it down a notch.
#93 Ed
Thought for sure you were British.
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I certainly hope that Obama does well and gets the American people behind him through his leadership-
this economic situation is not something that I have ever seen before
and the fact that nearly half of voting Americans supported McCain/Palin reflects a pervasive and fundamental (no pun) sickness in American society.
Can Obama lead many of these unfortunates to see the light of tolerance?
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Xie Ming (#139):
You have made an example with which to prove my point.
You dismiss supporters of McCain as sick without any regard for the actual reasons for their support.
As for your punniness, intended or not, I quote a line from an english novel:
"He who would pen a pun, would pick a pocket."
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#120 Robloop:
"#81 AsaScot
In reality I simply prefer antagonizing clowns like you."
Then alas you have failed as miserably as you did at journalistic integrity, I merely find you amusingly inept.
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#134 Exserviceman:
"However, Obama got a boost in *every* caucus that his share of the popular vote should not have given him. That is a clear indication of something going wrong.
That cheating tells you more about the kind of man Obama is than any TV broadcast. What was cheated and subverted was a democratic process."
Okay so what cheating are you talking about? And what proof do you have? That's P-R-O-O-F, look it up in the dictionary.
If you are referring to the fact that his EV lead is much larger than his percentage lead in the popular vote then I suggest you also research the Electoral College system.
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The whole point of FOX News and conservative pundits on radio is to balance out all those crazy pinko communists present in the other media, so that this perceived media bias gets mitigated. And I assure you, that the right wing media crowed EXTREMELY loudly during this election cycle, doing what their self-appointed job.
It more seems that obstinate Republicans (as opposed to those that are more reasonable and centrist) are just licking their wounds and trying to justify the loss of an inept campaign that resorted to mud-slinging and choosing a person whose sole qualification was her girly bits to share the ticket.
You lost. Just as they relished telling the left wing to "get over" Bush's controversial win in 2000, just deal with the fact that Obama absolutely pummeled you.
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If anyone, other than McCain, is to blame for Obama's win, it is Dubya.
If Bush had heeded Powell's advice, he would not have created the situation that turned a majority of voters against anyone associated, or alligned with Dubya.
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"121. At 7:13pm on 20 Nov 2008, robloop wrote:
#83 Simon21
A typically stupid response I've come to expect. You haven't a clue what you are waffling on about."
No aswer to the question eh?
Why do I doubt your pompous claims about being a journalist.
Next time do not talk about sbjects on which you know nothing
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134 notservicedboy.
"I hope to God I am wrong about this man that everyone in my country and worldwide likes so much."
don't worry it's happened before and I am sure it will happen again.
130. At 8:27pm on 20 Nov 2008, rooplop wrote:
#42 zugental
I contend that a man's associations and conduct tell a lot about him, thus making it an "issue". No, I do not support abortion and marvel at how societies that like to imagine themselves 'civilized' dispense with human life so cheaply.
------------------
Zugental
Ploppy prefers to spend millions executing the wrong people, because his "civilisation"s all for state murder.
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There was no prejudice in the last race. Like Bill Ayes put in on NPR Fresh Air: "Only moments from George Orwell." It was only during the moments of hate when they saw Goldstien on screen that they shouted: KILL HIM--KILL HIM. Other than that all we had were religious moments where all the candidates commune with the American Spirit. Or was it with the American Spirits killed at Wounded Knee?
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#141 AsaScot
Don't talk drivel, from what you've written from time to time it's evident you don't have the faintest idea about the meaning of 'integrity', let alone any knowledge of my own when a journalist. That aside I simply find you a fool who falls dismally short of impressing anyone that he's above being antagonized.
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"134. At 9:24pm on 20 Nov 2008, exserviceman wrote:
I would just like to say Zeigler's questions were not neutral, some of them contained elements of partisan conservative criticism of Obama. Its hardly surprising a mainstream TV network audience had no clue.
However as an editor, Justin himself knows how easy it is to change the meaning of news broadcasts by story selection, and chopping video and speach into snippets.
The real bias is that TV media prefer a candidate who is a great TV performer, with eloquence, who is tall, physically handsome [ok I am relying on views of female family members there] and charismatic.
There is also the fact that he represents a historically put upon minority reaching the pinnacle of the highest responsibility in the USA - a tremendously poweful news story that will run for years giving high ratings.
Diana Syndrome.
If Obama was white, 5' 5", fat and spoke in a monotone do you think anyone would listen to his "progressive" political program?
Any fact that got in the way of the juicy "Diana" story above would have to be played down and minimized.
The economic collapse came as a huge gift to Obama politically - it greatly helped to wash away all TV media doubts about some of his more unfortunate past [?]associations.
That would normally be fair, Obama is from the opposition party,- except for the democratic parties finger prints all over Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac. Heck never let the truth get in the way of a juicy story.
Justin also knew about the Hillery campaign's claims about Obama's people cheating in the caucas primaries.
He swallowed the Obama spin and failed to check - o.k. there is time pressure and lack of resources -we are all human.
However, Obama got a boost in *every* caucus that his share of the popular vote should not have given him. That is a clear indication of something going wrong.
That cheating tells you more about the kind of man Obama is than any TV broadcast. What was cheated and subverted was a democratic process.
If you don't believe in democracy as a politician, just what do you believe in?
IMHO Obama believes in the ruthless pursuit of power by any means necessary, and that the "negative rights" in the constitution will not prevent him from realizing his ideological objectives by "administrative measures."
America's problem is the devotion, unquestioning loyalty and love of many of Obama's supporters - he can do no wrong in their eyes.
This video is pregnant with the future of America:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA0RuvtsiVY
I hope to God I am wrong about this man that everyone in my country and worldwide likes so much. "
You seem to have a big problem seperating allegations from fact.
Pretty crucial when dealing with an election,
But here's the thing. If Hillary really thought Obama was "cheating", does she strike you as the type of politician who would respond with a laugh and shrug?
That is not the impression she gives to most people.
As for the comment about "unswerving loyalty", why is that you think?
Maybe its witchcraft? Maybe he has hexed the US using strange rights he learned in Kenya?
It couldn't possibly be because Obama is the kind of man that inspires such devotion -could it?
Some might say that is a powerful asset in itself.
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"130. At 8:27pm on 20 Nov 2008, robloop wrote:
#42 zugental
I contend that a man's associations and conduct tell a lot about him, thus making it an "issue"."
You also contended that you were a journalist, and we soon saw through that one.
" No, I do not support abortion and marvel at how societies that like to imagine themselves 'civilized' dispense with human life so cheaply. "
Becasue it is not human life, but moving on.
"As to "intrinsic goodness in humanity", if in fact that really existed then humans would be concerned about a person's character. Associations with persons of poor character should speak volumes, but, as I've stated before, when individuals abandon a moral compass evidently it no longer matters to them,"
A more intelligent viewing might say it depends on the nature of the association and the reasons for it.
Churchill associated with Stalin, does that mean he lost his "moral compass"?
John McCain associated with various North Vietnamese for a number of years.
" Further, there is nothing intrinsically good about someone who supports the killing of infants, most of all in it most barbaric forms, not least partial birth abortion and allowing children who survive abortion to die."
There is nothing good at all, intrinsic or otherwise about the killing of infants. That isn't what is happening.
There's nothing good about forcing rape and incest victims to give birth either.
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134, exservice.
"If Obama was white, 5' 5", fat and spoke in a monotone do you think anyone would listen to his "progressive" political program?"
The most popular mayor in New York history was white, shorter than 5'5," ugly, and spoke with a lisp. EVERYBODY listened to him. When he and the Republican Party parted company, he ran again as an independent - and won.
A large part of the electorate looks for substance.
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#138 middlecroony
I appreciate your reasonable comment, but possibly you appreciate that I've responded to a fair amount of provocation from some who seem to imagine that those who don't support Obama aren't entitled to "disagree" here. Consider my posting 130. In response to more reasonableness it was somewhat 'notched' down, although, upon reflection, I wish my last sentence had ended less bluntly.
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Middle (138),
A Southerner long resident in Scotland, so you're sort of half-right. I grew up in American Apartheid, out-grew it, but my heritage is mostly Virginian, alloyed with Floridian/Canadian, sharpened in NYC, and mellowed in Scotland with the help of Oaken casks.
Slainte!
ed
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#150 Simon21
Simon, you are, to use an expression the Brits use, a wearisome twit! You didn't see through anything. After university, quite a few years back granted, I was for a few years a journalist.
If you think a child in the womb is not human life you wallow in ignorance. Have you ever watched one through an ultra-sound?
There is not the slightest chance of you coming up with "a more intelligent viewing". Your examples of Winston Churchill and John McCain are testament to that much.
Your point about incest and rape are the only ones we have in common, but most abortions do not result from incest and rape. Further, contrary to what you evidently want to believe abortion involves the killing of infants in the womb, sometimes even outside the womb - sometimes after they've survived an abortion. If you don't know this you need to do some serious investigation. Or is it a case of you not wanting to know this, or not having the stomach for the harsh reality?
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robloop:
for having been so involved with jouranlism you certainly haven't learned much in being civil or unscathing.
wow.
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allmymarbles at 151
I think I agree with Michael Bloomberg about allmost everything. I am from the UK so his position on gun control and abortion is completely natural to me.
Even the ID card thing is a good idea if the federal government is of good will and efficient skill in administration, in the UK. In the US it will have Libertarians opening fire on law enforcement people.
Bloomberg could never have been a presidential candidate for the Republican party with those positions, and his religious identity would rule out strong block-support from evangelical Christians who plague Repuplican primaries, i.e. North Carolina.
This is not anti-semitic as opposed to just being able to identify closely with the religion of the presidential candidate. I find that truely sad - but I am an agnostic from the UK and I have to observe the evidence of my own eyes.
The only exception to my policy agreement seemed to be he dosn't favor the DHS border wall in the south of the country - I would strongly advocate it to protect the status of the English Language.
If you have large areas of the US with different Mono languages dominating, these can become different countries over the long term.
At the moment people are still learning English slowly, if the Immigration from South America grows back to its earlier scale people in the South West will stop bothering to learn English. Therein lies partition and disaster.
My view is that Maccain is much closer to Bloomberg than Obama. That is because I do not actually believe Obama's word on what he says his program will be. What do you see when you look at him?
Bloomberg must stand for the Democratic party as a presidential candidate if he wants to be P.O.T.U.S, an Independent will always fail. Therefore after his current term as NY Mayor he will rejoin the Democratic party.
He would have made a great Democratic party candidate in 2012, but of course he would never be nominated by that party as it is actually close to being permanently controlled by Barack Obama's DSA/CP USA faction.
I think You are dead wrong about how most people come to a view on voting. The overwhelming majority of the electorate makes an emotional decision based on a shallow TV impression, and then paste that ontop of what their parents drummed into them as kids as a kind of cultural substrate.
Those two factors get weighed together as people process each candidate, then out pops their choice.
Some of the people with brains do look at the policies and then selectively remember their favourite bits about the candidate they have allready picked.
The only exception might be that women realise Mccain is pro-life and Obama is pro-choice, because for them it truely could be a personally life altering decision.
You and I are in a tiny minority who actually look at the other policies of the parties and candidates.
The difference between us is that I think one of the candidates has not given an accurate account of his true intentions to the American people, and he has won the popular vote.
So to sum up, your counter example of a brilliant administrator yet uncharismatic Mayor fails because he can't carry that over to a presidential election for either party, and will automatically fail as an independent candidate.
Care to have another go?
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154, robloop.
"After university, quite a few years back granted, I was for a few years a journalist.
If you think a child in the womb is not human life you wallow in ignorance. Have you ever watched one through an ultra-sound?"
I am very impressed that you were once a journalist. I guess that validates anything you might say. Our thanks to you for relieving us of our ignorance by introducing us to the wonders of ultrasound.
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156, exservice.
In the northeast, which is quite liberal on social issues, our Republican officials, Bloomberg for instance, are also liberal on social issues. This was also true of Mitt Romney and Rudy Giuliani. When they run for national office they they bend over backwards trying to sound conservative. In other words, they lie. The reason Giuliani did so badly was that he was uncomfortable lying. He was a truly great mayor.
McCain was liberal for a Republican. It was because of his lack of extreme conservatism that much of the Republican hierarchy was against him. McCain tried to rectify that with his ultra-right-wing disgusting campaign. I doubt he is happy with himself.
I don't think Bloomberg is good presidential material because he is very meat and potatoes and lacking in charisma. But then, so was Ross Perot who ran as an independent and received an unprecedented 18 per cent of the popular vote. Perot spoke to us honestly, without political blather, and we loved that.
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Simon21 at
"you seem to have problems separating allegations from fact"
No, I am 43 and have studied history in my own quiet way my whole life.
Obama uses classic communist party tactics to infiltrate and seize leadership control of a democratic political party.
That would normally be impossible from a standing start, but he did not start from square one. The DSA/CP USA groups always held positions within the Democratic party especially in Chicago, they payed a key role in sabotaging Fannie May and Freddie Mac on an *epic* scale.
Here are a few of the DSA friends in action:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs&feature=related
Now this same faction has control of the presidency and is working to control as many senate seats as possible - when they get to 60 Obama is in postion to replace any appointee to Defense, NSA and DHS with no delay.
This is why Hillery is being offered a Secretary of State position, they want her senate seat under their control - and obviously do not want her husband or other loyal American in it.
When Obama is ready to cross the Rubicon, he can [with great relish no doubt] throw her overboard and replace her and any other mainstream Democratic cabinet members still surviving with a hard core ideologues loyal only to "The One".
Then its time to execute a full scale coup.
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159, exservice.
"Now this same faction has control of the presidency and is working to control as many senate seats as possible - when they get to 60 Obama is in postion to replace any appointee to Defense, NSA and DHS with no delay."
I have news for you, the faction does not have control of the presidency, the presidency (at least in this case) has control of the faction. And as for choosing his cabinet, he can do it without 60 senate seats.
"This is why Hillery is being offered a Secretary of State position, they want her senate seat under their control - and obviously do not want her husband or other loyal American in it."
Completely loony. More likely Obama wants to be able to control the Clintons, who are very tricky types. There is lots of other uninformed drivel in your post which I won't bother with, such as Obama being communistic. Earth to Mars....
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allmymarbles at 158
The bit about Mccain's campaign I really felt uncomfortable with was Palin on being questioned about "should a person who bombs a abortion clinic be called a terrorist or not"
She ducked it. Up till that point I actually liked the woman, afterwards I felt the same kind of disorientation that hit me after Abu Graib. In some ways shes couragous, yet she can't see how wrong she is on that issue.
After that she was never the same in my eyes. I actually know 2 women who have had to go through that unfortunate experience, and the thought of some nut killing or injuring them or young women like them with a bomb is just horrible.
Lord allmighty these women have suffered enough, leave them be.
The robocalls were a mistake, even if I did agree with the content. Its wrong to spam peoples phones with irritating political calls, let alone ones that mislead and don't ID what they are immediately.
I don't know if the calls were just because Mccain couldn't afford the TV and was desperate - or just to keep those creepy campaign operatives from working for others and saying out and out vicious lies.
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161, exservice.
You go from irrational to rational. I can't figure you out.
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allymymarbles at 162.
Give me a clue here, are you a student or teacher?
If you explain why you thought Mccain fought an "ultra-right wing campaign" [I tried to list all the things that were wrong about it] we might be able to understand each other. Just a few points would help :-)
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163, exservice.
Neither. I am a professional woman who worked for more than 20 years overseas, mostly in third-world countries.
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allmymarbles at 164.
Where did you go to work? Africa and South America, or the Far East?
From the time difference, you might currently be in California or elsewhere on the west coast?
I am stuck on a little Island in the English Channel currently, out of work.
I was in Kenya for about 6 weeks in 1990, wow that was hot on the coast. Big spiders in the desert parts, little critters were about the size of a man's palm and fast!
People were friendly though, still remember quite well dressed kids on their way to school, walking through all this vibrant green folliage. Odd how some things seem to stay in my memory. Bumpy roads and bright sunshine.
I was really sad to see the political disputes/problems there, fingers crossed they are in the past now.
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I recommend :
Nate Silver's further analysis of his enlighting interview with Ziegler - which leads him to deconstruct the very nature of Talk Radio and why it appeals mainly to the hard right.
When he writes "Ziegler made absolutely no attempt to persuade me of the veracity of his viewpoints. He simply asserted them - and then became frustrated, paranoid or vulgar when I rebutted them" he will ring many a bell with users of this site.
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The real question is:
Is Barrack Obama pregnant with the future of America?
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# 168
And is Talk Radio the morning sickness ?
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When Ed surfaces, there is a real turkey of a Palin interview on Huffpo. She knew more about red necks than we ever thought possible.
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#149 Simon21:
"Maybe its witchcraft? Maybe he has hexed the US using strange rights he learned in Kenya?"
Simon, you'd better watch out with that rights/rites spelling error. People may suspect you are referring to that infamous KKK joke, where, before murdering him, they tell the white civil rights marcher from up North that, sure they will "give him his rights, his last rights".
As for the witchcraft thingie, Catholic League president Bill Donohue famously said the following:
"for the past two decades, Americans have been lectured by educators and the chattering class that we must respect cultural, religious, racial and ethnic diversity. It seems that exceptions to the creed of multiculturalism are only made when it suits the ideological agenda of the left. ... Witchcraft is a sad reality in many parts of Africa, resulting in scores of deaths in KENYA over the past two decades. Bishop Muthee’s blessing, then, was simply a reflection of his cultural understanding of evil. While others are not obliged to accept his interpretation, all can be expected to respect it. More than that — Muthee should be hailed for asking God to shield Palin from harmful forces, however they may be manifested. And for this he is mocked and Palin ridiculed?"
Funny, is it not how Donohue made sure Kenya, the supposed birth land of Obama, was part of the message? It did not really matter that most of the witchcraft killings in the last two decades were in Western Africa, nor that the 11 people killed in May 2008 in Kenya were actually people ACCUSED of witchcraft (by Muthee amongst others). And the supposedly liberal MSM passed on this. They gave far more attention to a part of Muthee's speech that while not mentioning Jews at all, sounded possibly anti-semitic.
In the same service where he exorcised Palin, Muthee said:
"We need believers who are educationists. If we had them we would not be talking about the Ten Commandments being kicked out of High School. They would still be there...We need a core taking over our education system. If we had God in our schools we would not have kids being taught how to worship Buddha, how to worship Mohammed. We would not have in the curriculum witchcraft and sorcery."
Something else that the liberal MSm missed there: Muthee did not really sound like a pastor just passing by at that church, and it was not the onkly time he visited it.
The supposedly liberal BBC moderators above found my link to the blog of Jake Tapper, Justin's colleague at the supposedly liberal ABC news (the closest I could get to "MSM" on this item), inappropriate, so I can only suggest to google it.
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Thanksgiving time
Gobble gobble!Peace and Abstinence
ed
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Palin Pardons a Turkey in the Name of “Peace and Harmony.” Let the Slaughter Begin!
e've had a lucky escape, methinks...Peace and Pardons
ed
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Palin Pardons a Turkey in the Name of “Peace and Harmony.” Let the Slaughter Begin!
What's to moderate?Peace and Thanksgiving (for a lucky escape)
ed
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157 allmymarbles
If you'd followed the thread of the 'discussion' you'd have known how the journalism and ultra-sound matters arose, so your comment was pointless.
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Anyone notice that the Whitehouse appears to have 'borrowed' one of Obama's policy ideas? The new deal on US troops in Iraq promises a withdrawal of US forces by 2011, guess a fixed timtable wasn't such a terrible idea after all...
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155 hontogaijin
Sorry hotogaijin, but if you went back to how this began you'd understand how things got a bit vicious.
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Gobble gobble
Oink oink
Peace and Community
ed
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Gobble gobble, and the one that got away
Peace to all (Mods included)
ed
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Morning Sickness?
Hmmmmm...Peace and Fairness
ed
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There's a Hole in the Bucket...
Perhaps it's all those ex-Clinton folk who've joined The Team and brought their old habits with them?Peace and keeping one's counsel
ed
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#178 Ed Iglehart
Frankly I'm just 'thankful' she never got near the Whitehouse. You can just imagine her returning from a visit to Russia and announcing how productive it had been while behind her the first wave of Russian paratroopers descended over Washington...
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It is irrational to expect the GOP to admit that their loss was their fault. America seems to thrive on assigning blame. The likes of Beck, Limbaugh, Dobbs are all a-flutter on losing their main target. What will they do if Obama achieves some successes?
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#177 ~
Sadly I have to report that when I tried to click on to Ed's post highlighted "Community" my computer told me that "the address is not valid".
Maybe that's our problem. We have lost the password for community and can only gobble ineffectively at each other whilst waiting to be seized and plunged headfirst into a bucket with an elected Governor gabbling nonsense before us as we meet our maker.
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luacene wrote:
#117
I request references
And i'm just wondering what criteria those 3 ideologies share
________________________________
A very good place to start, if taken slowly, is: Ideology's Handbook: Nexi of Psychology, Religion and Politics
ISBN 0920282091
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ref #179
You laugh at the Fairness Doctrine because you don't want to have an open dialougue.
You don't seem to care that it doesn't effect the editorial pages of newspapers like the NYT.
PBS which has a major liberal bias is not going to be addressed.
I don't listen to Rush but I don't think his listeners should have to have a Rachel Maddow on his program.
Does this mean Keith Obermann who is the worst hate monger on the left is going to have to give equal time to one of his despised opponents. I would like to see Michelle Malkin wipe the floor with him
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"Muthee should be hailed for asking God to shield (six-pack) Sarah Palin from harmful forces". - Post # 149
That really got a chuckle out of me. In fact it made my day! Isn't consuming a 6-pack of "spirits" enough, or perhaps her big mouth wasn't taken into consideration in asking God to shield the hypocrisy that can only inhibits the mind of a right wing conservative christian nut case!" No intelligence there.
For centuries the Christian churches have used the imaginary witchcraft-black cat-broomsticks, howl-O-Ween, demons and devils as proof that can be prevented by selling their souls (and their money) to their churches of their choice. Don't forget to put into the plate, please. They have even put innocent humans to death throughout the centuries as proof. Here's an idea. Perhaps "God" should be put on trial for letting this happen for so long.
But hey! What do I know about fundamental superstitious dogmas. I am an Atheist. I shook off that "Christian" yoke I was born with over half a century ago. I am, perhaps, the only free "spirit" on this post.
Witchcraft, ghosts, imps, fairies, can only be applied to children which love to be scared. But some of these children get to be grown ups and dangerous preachers and priests, and I might add, politicians! They can become just a bad as those children who are shown violence, the glorification of wars and rumors of war, are given toy guns on Christmas and than go to Sunday schools and pray.
Obviously, the old saying that "when I was a child, I did childish things, but when I grew up, I did away with with childish ways" does not apply to these RWC (right wing conservative) loonies.
If the USA wants to become a member of the civilized world again, than it must take religion (and the religious nuts in Congress) out of government!
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I believe that the hold-up today with the moderators is probably caused by Stage 2 of the accident-waiting-to-happen , aka the Russell Brand/Jonathan Ross BBC saga, and all the various comments on the BBC Trust's published response .
Whilst I cherish the BBC, I also believe that we have every right to be concerned when people who (to some of us) seem to be marginally talented are paid £6 million to present a couple of programmes a week.
Relevant to this blog, I understand that well over 100 BBC staff made their way to America for the election results on November 4 - to present a programme fronted by the pompous David Dimblebey and - more strangely still - by the mysteriously John Bolton. Like most savvy folk I was spared this embarrassment by watching the US cable network.
Exempt from this criticism is Justin Webb whose TV and radio broadcasting has been masterly - and if his blogging is a bit ragged I can only put it down to the fact that he has learnt that whatever he writes, the rest of us will take hold of it and take it off in whichever direction seizes our fancy at the time.
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Where Obama' birth certificate?
Why is the press uninterested in this?
Why is Obama keeping it away?
What else do we not know about Obama?
Imma Okochua
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Zieglergate makes the Wall Street Journal!
Doh!Peace and integrity
ed
My opinions may have changed,
but not the fact that I'm right.
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80%,
Password to Community
With Compliments
ed
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Howard Stern interviews Obama supporters: (caution profanity)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqAiarOhC2U
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FT1,
and definitely the most self-effacing ;-)Complain about this comment
#185 Magickirin
Read your post several times and I'm still not sure; are you for or against the Fairness Doctrine? The first couple of sentences seem pro but the last couple read as anti. Academic anyway as the article Ed linked to makes it clear there is no political appetite for reintroducing it.
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"188. At 3:23pm on 21 Nov 2008, Immaokochua wrote:
Where Obama' birth certificate?
Don't know
Why is the press uninterested in this?
No body cares
Why is Obama keeping it away?
Doesn't care
What else do we not know about Obama?
Who knows
Now any more silly questions? The colour of Obama's underpants perhaps?
His taste in singlets? What happens to his hair clippings?
Imma Okochua
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185. At 3:01pm on 21 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #179
You laugh at the Fairness Doctrine because you don't want to have an open dialougue.
You don't seem to care that it doesn't effect the editorial pages of newspapers like the NYT.
PBS which has a major liberal bias is not going to be addressed.
I don't listen to Rush but I don't think his listeners should have to have a Rachel Maddow on his program.
Does this mean Keith Obermann who is the worst hate monger on the left is going to have to give equal time to one of his despised opponents. I would like to see Michelle Malkin wipe the floor with him
So you have no objection then to the doctrine being reestablished?
Or are you simply contradicting yourself again
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~ 188
Immak......
Obama's birth certificate is on the internet.
... and you ask "what else do we not know about Obama ?"
What did you have in mind ?
His life is well chronicled and although questions like your have been brought up time and again on these pages, we have seen evidence of nothing but a serious, determined and extremely talented man who wants to work for his country.
You have something else new to tell us ? And it has to be new, because we've heard the same old Talk Radio theories a hundred times before.
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#188 Immaokochua:
"Where Obama' birth certificate?
Why is the press uninterested in this?
Why is Obama keeping it away?
What else do we not know about Obama?
Imma Okochua"
Where is your evidence that Obama is not US born? You see that's the way things work, you make an allegation you provide the proof, until you have some kindly go away.
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"159. At 05:20am on 21 Nov 2008, exserviceman wrote:
Simon21 at
"you seem to have problems separating allegations from fact"
No, I am 43 and have studied history in my own quiet way my whole life."
And so have I. History is the Queen of the Humanities, but she must be treated carefully.
Reading is essential.
"Obama uses classic communist party tactics to infiltrate and seize leadership control of a democratic political party. "
Ah what did I say? What "classic tactics" are these? These sort of tactics have been used by everyone from the jesuits to neo-fascists.
"That would normally be impossible from a standing start, but he did not start from square one. The DSA/CP USA groups always held positions within the Democratic party especially in Chicago, they payed a key role in sabotaging Fannie May and Freddie Mac on an *epic* scale."
Again allegations and facts are different things. What proof do you have that Obama is a member of the communist party? Which communist party? The US, Russian, the Chinese?
"Here are a few of the DSA friends in action:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs&feature=related"
Yes unprovenanced material aired by a political opponent.
I take it you do not beleive the Protocols of the elders of Zion?
I take it you do not beleive that Catholics/blacks/freemasons etc etc are engaged in a world wide conspiracy?
You really must try to think
"Now this same faction has control of the presidency and is working to control as many senate seats as possible - when they get to 60 Obama is in postion to replace any appointee to Defense, NSA and DHS with no delay. "
Well he has to have hearings and yes he will place his appointments as he is the president
"This is why Hillery is being offered a Secretary of State position, they want her senate seat under their control - and obviously do not want her husband or other loyal American in it."
Sorry this is self contradicting - They place an eenemy in a crucial position because this will help them?
"When Obama is ready to cross the Rubicon, he can [with great relish no doubt] throw her overboard and replace her and any other mainstream Democratic cabinet members still surviving with a hard core ideologues loyal only to "The One"."
He can do that anyway, he is the president.
Are you sure your feelings are not because Obama is black and you are frightened by black men?
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#186 Foxtrottango1
Re America becoming "a member of the civilized world again", it would be a good idea to take a really hard look at the rest of the world, consider just how 'civilized' the supposedly 'civilized' world still is, and then ask yourself whether you still want America to become a member of that club.
I have a brother who lives in England, a sister in Australia, and another sister in South Africa. Nowhere are things improving. In some respects things are falling apart.
Africa and the Middle East are a mess.
People from Central and South America risk their lives trying to get to the U.S. and large numbers from the rest of the Third World flock to Canada and the U.S. Africans by the thousands try to get across the strait to Spain - to get away from Africa.
Serious problems, social, financial, political are not unique to the U.S., and this much is borne out by bloggers in the U.K. who have been scathing about what New Labour, Tony Blair and George Brown have done to their country.
It's the old story of the grass looking greener on the other side.
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#190
Hey - Ed ~ that's a really good one. Glad I moaned.
Recommend it to all readers. Do not pass # 190 without opening the box.
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"154. At 02:55am on 21 Nov 2008, robloop wrote:
#150 Simon21
Simon, you are, to use an expression the Brits use, a wearisome twit! You didn't see through anything. After university, quite a few years back granted, I was for a few years a journalist."
Yes and I can predict the sort of paper you orked for.
And I think I can say why you lost your job.
"If you think a child in the womb is not human life you wallow in ignorance. Have you ever watched one through an ultra-sound? "
Maybe I have maybe I haven't - makes no difference.
And at oleast I understand english words like "objective"
"There is not the slightest chance of you coming up with "a more intelligent viewing". Your examples of Winston Churchill and John McCain are testament to that much."
Slightly more impressive then your comments eh. Plainly stung you. Churchil did associate (your word) with Stalin didn't he?
That did not make him a rabid communist.
"Your point about incest and rape are the only ones we have in common, but most abortions do not result from incest and rape."
But a number do
" Further, contrary to what you evidently want to believe abortion involves the killing of infants in the womb, sometimes even outside the womb - sometimes after they've survived an abortion."
I don't regard foetuses as infants and " the womb" is usally in "the woman." Who of course plays no role in your relatively corrupt view of this matter, being simply a receptacle.
Doubtless getting pregnant is all her fault as well - are we hearing the voice of experience?
"If you don't know this you need to do some serious investigation. Or is it a case of you not wanting to know this, or not having If you don't know this you need to do some serious investigation. Or is it a case of you not wanting to know this, or not having the stomach for the harsh reality?"
Oh I think I can cope with reality rather better than you seemed to be able to. We saw that in your hopeless claims about being a journalist.
But for your info a foetus is not an infant and a woman is not simply an incubator on legs.
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#199 robloop
"and this much is borne out by bloggers in the U.K. who have been scathing about what New Labour, Tony Blair and George Brown have done to their country."
Well that's the nice part about blogs, you can always find people who will agree with your viewpoint and reinforce your beliefs. Also didn't your journalism classes emphasize the importance of checking your facts? You know like the fact that the PM is GORDON Brown, yes its a little thing but if you can't get the little things right...
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#201 Simon21
Simon, Your blog speaks for itself, you are not only wearisome, you are tedious - and really quite emotional.
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152. At 00:39am on 21 Nov 2008, realplop wrote:
#138 middlecroony
I appreciate your reasonable comment, but possibly you appreciate that I've responded to a fair amount of provocation from some who seem to imagine that those who don't support Obama aren't entitled to "disagree" here. Consider my posting 130. In response to more reasonableness it was somewhat 'notched' down, although, upon reflection, I wish my last sentence had ended less bluntly..-
--------------------------------------------
And we wish that the hatchet used on you was a little more blunt.
but the mods like you obviously.
Have you ever defended an argument or just whinged about how unfair it is that you are considered such a twerp.
Remember this blog is not interesting if all we get from you is the same crap we get from gherkin crackdaddy, and your other half true pooh.
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#201 AsaScot
It is stupid blogs like yours that cause me to get scathing. An uncontentious blog, not to you, has brought from you a silly tirade. I have a brother, in-laws, and now a daughter living in the U.K. Their views support those of U.K. bloggers and then, unlike you evidently, I read.
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Ploppy back to savage civilisations killing their innocents.
You never did get near talking about your lack of opposition to the death penalty.
close calls and still waiting.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-cases-2004-present
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-holdridge/number-of-innocents-on-de_b_95524.html
http://www.aclu.org/capital/innocence/index.html
so answer ploppy, don't be afraid there are as many bloodthirsty nwim(not when it's me) americans around here , you won't be on your own.
Ploppy son of ploppy
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157marbles "ultrasound " is that that group out of seattle?
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205 ploppy did she move there to get away from you or all republicans?
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As a European it is my opinion that only America could have produced a Palin but more importantly, only America could produce an Obama. Now Obama is the President Elect and it is time to look to the future.
The most important thing is what he will be able to do within the many constraints surrounding him legal, fiscal and constitutional, and this, obviously, while in large measure depend on how far he can lead the American people out of the present crisis.
The media can well play an important role in this. In the eighteenth century the newspapers generally highlighted the positive, while in the second half of the 20th negativity became the fashion. A swing back towards a more positive stand point is necessary. I am all for freedom but all freedoms also mean taking responsibility for how that freedom is used.
Abuse of freedom has become a major scourge in both corporate and financial circles, both sides of the Atlantic. A return to greater regulation is inevitable, unfortunately.
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Re #159,
exserviceman,
Wow. You are really serious about "the One" destroying our country and doing it quite intentionally. You seem to have met true evil and given it a name.
As for me, I have also studied history. One of my degrees is in it. I just don't see the evidence you see. Hopefully, you won't suggest yet again that this is because I am blinded by my emotional attachment to my socialist Messiah.
(Okay, well, yes, I did see true evil in the elections, but it was wearing a dress and had this tick problem with one eye.)
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Nice link ed, and thanks for the reminder 80. : )
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ref #193 and 195
Are you two that dense? Normally I would ask but you have demonstrated by previious statements that you are clueless about the realities in the world.
What I have pointed out that the Fairness Doctrine is a sham because it only addresses one segment of media and not the rest.
It is has the legitimacy and is about accurate in name as The U.N Human Rights Council.
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Re #170,
There are schools that teach children witchcraft and sorcery??? Aw, I didn't get to go to one of those. Or...was he just mistaking a Harry Potter movie for a documentary?
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Come on, people, please. The over-the-top personal attacks and insults to one another's intelligence are getting embarrassing to read. Taking the moral highground and simply pointing out that your opposition is not actually providing proof really does make people take you more seriously. I am much more likely to look into the facts of a well reasoned argument. Okay, or a funny one.
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# 212
MagicKirin accuses other people of being dense.
Let the bells ring out and the trumpets blow.
An almighty understanding of the concept of density is coming from on high and is about to rest above the head of MagicKirin - who will thereafter post no more dense rubbish on this site and forevermore keep his peace.
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Old-Man-Mike (#209), "the media" is not a monolithic entity, at least in the United States and the other western democracies. Most Americans want the new president to do well because we want our country to do well. Journalists, being also Americans, are no exception, but that won't prevent them from doing their job. They are not cheerleaders.
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AsaScot at 175
I quote your paragraph here:-
"Anyone notice that the Whitehouse appears to have 'borrowed' one of Obama's policy ideas? The new deal on US troops in Iraq promises a withdrawal of US forces by 2011, guess a fixed timtable wasn't such a terrible idea after all..."
My Reply:
The surge brigades had to fight and clear AQI from their strongholds. There was a year of bloody fighting. Obama was completely against the surge.
Its one thing for Petraeus to suggest a 3 year timetable *after US forces have won a huge victory* and something completely different for Obama to suggest an 18 month plan while AQI is still very much alive and kicking with the battle still raging.
Historical example:
D-day minus one, June 5th 1944, US, UK and Canadian forces are ready to mount a "surge" into Normandy
May 7th-9th 1945
Nazi forces totally defeated.
Without considering the different military situations on those two different dates, cutting and pasting the withdrawl timetable from 1945 ontop of 1944 is nonsense.
The situation on the ground is more important than a plan made of words with no date stamp.
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mdalerwill at 210
What is Obama's "Civilian National Security Force" for?
Obama Colorado speech 2nd July 2008.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHmecy94z-M&feature=related
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#192
Do you mean like six-pack, one-of-the-guys packing-heat Sarah Palin, the Yukon's pit-bull with lipstick on?
Please say it ain't so, Ed!
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"What I have pointed out that the Fairness Doctrine is a sham because it only addresses one segment of media and not the rest."
That's because the original Fairness Doctrine was created to stop one political viewpoint doninating the *only* mass media available when it was created.
The reason given by Talk Radio for opposing the fairness doctrine - "you can't tell a business how to run itself" is perfectly valid, but that does mean the likes of Hannity are in the advertising business and not actually part of any dialog. In fact, it makes a mockery of their claims that the imposition of the Fairness Doctrine is about strangling conservative or republican opinion.
If it's a business matter, then the Fairness Doctrine would simply demand that the radio stations accept advertising from another source. And what could be unfair about that?
The Fairness Doctrine is currently just a way for terrified demagogues to claim that they are being silenced, or threatened. Imposing it as it stands would be a stupid idea. Modifying it to include all media and then imposing it would also be stupid.
The best bet is to rebuild the education system and concentrate on teaching people how to think instead of what to think.
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Ex-serviceman:
'May 7th-9th 1945
Nazi forces totally defeated."
Did an increase in the number of troops work in Vietnam?
Has increasing the number of uniformed troops in the field ever helped those troops fight an Asymetric war?
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"5:49pm on 21 Nov 2008
Re #170,
There are schools that teach children witchcraft and sorcery??? Aw, I didn't get to go to one of those. Or...was he just mistaking a Harry Potter movie for a documentary?"
Doesn't everyone know this? All Humanties degrees have an Occult module. I took English Lit, Medieval History and Things Mankind Was Not Meant To Know. In my gap year I participated in the exchange program with the Miskatonic and did a three month advanced field course on the Plateau of Leng. I was dead jealous, everyone else got to go to Lake Hali.
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At the news conference after his election victory Obama said it would be unacceptable for Iran to have nuclear weapons and that Iran should stop supporting terrorists.
These are encouraging signs. Apart from terrorising its own people, cowardly Iran funds, arms and trains terrorists like Hezbollah, Hamas and Islamic Jihad to carry out its proxy wars. And the justice authorities in Argentina are on Iran's case over the terrorist murders of Jews at a community centre and the Israeli Embassy in the nineties.
I imagine that Obama has been well-briefed on Iran, the country that represents the very essence of terror, and the very real danger a nuclear Iran poses to the world. I also wonder whether he might have personal reasons for opposing terror. Could be he had friends who were victims of 9/11 or the terror attack on the American Embassy in Kenya.
Could be that terrorist regimes like Iran and terror groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbllah and Al Qaeda are in for a rough time during Obama's presidency.
Well, we can hope.
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Re #218,
exserviceman,
I have seen the speech and read transcripts and analysis.
My understanding is that the service he alluded to would encompass the Foreign Service, the Peace Corp, USA Freedom Corps, and expand Americorps from about 75,000 to 250,000. My hope is that it would also beef up the National Guard, which (if I recall correctly) is an astoundingly small 50,000. The idea is to put college students and graduates in mentoring positions to train youth in community leadership. Actual details on how much, to who, for what projects exactly and where were lacking in the speech.
Publications like IBD have filled in the blanks in much the way you have and assumed these young men and women will be trained to force radical social change on America by armed means.
Actually I do have two reservations regarding this concept, as it is too vague to even be called a plan:
1) How would we pay for it? Several of these programs are excellent, but in this economy....
2) Other Democrats, not Obama himself, are starting to suggest cutting military spending by 25% to jump start this kind of civilian service. First, that's a huge amount, and I can't see how we could do it while still actively involved in Afghanistan and Iraq. Second, I don't see this becoming a tremendously safer world even under the best of circumstances, and I'd rather we not reduce our military at a time when conflict over resources could be expanding beyond just oil.
So, in summary, I would need to see actual movement in the general direction of the Rubicon (legislation, perhaps?) before I'd come to the same conclusions you have.
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56. Iapetus,
Regarding media bias:
They may have been some favouring of Obama by the BBC
Ain't no "may have been" about it. The BBC was trumpeting Obama's cause from the day he beat Clinton and occasionally turning a contemptuous glance at the Republicans, as if suddenly remembering that there was an unwelcome impediment to Obama's victory. The coverage was an absolute disgrace.
But there were a couple of bright spots. World Have Your Say toured America and did a series of programmes on the elections which were fair and balanced – i.e. both Republicans and Democrats were given equal opportunity to air their views. But other than that, BBC coverage was abysmal.
130. robloop,
No, I do not support abortion and marvel at how societies that like to imagine themselves 'civilized' dispense with human life so cheaply.
I'm in total agreement with that observation.
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My prejudice, I'll admit was against Palin's voice. The voice was enigmatic, its manner of speech strangely vertiginous and synthetic. Charactdristic not of a local dialect or class but of some Southern American social no-man's land, it is the voice of no one and all. And as a quasi-liberal, I was more irritated by it than impressed. In other words Palin was too much all american to be a Real American.
"Our guys" would not do that [bomb innocent civilians]. Did she mean that "our soldiers would disobey orders and commit treason? It was her coloqualism that got under my skin like a chigger.
And seeing First Dude in his beard in mustache did not give me much confidence. We are socialized to believe that a clean shave and a firm handshake is a mark of a good businessman. And when the news said that Super Dude leaned on that guy up North to fire X brother in law. It made me think too much.
This how prejudice works.
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#218/#224: the "civilian national defense force" has been addressed a number of times before here.
mdalerwill, you have it exactly right. The concept is that it is more effective to reach out to one's foes, build rapport, seek common ground, and to peacefully show what is good about democracy. It was vastly underrated, but probably one of the most effective tools of the Cold War.
As far as the domestic side of this idea, a number of hurricanes have shown that understaffed national guard and FEMA volunteers are not an effective way to deal with major disasters. If there were another catastrophe on the scale of Katrina- earthquake, flood, tsunami- then having adequate forces on the ground is critical.
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Magic (212),
That is your (typical) opinion, but, (as you seem not have noticed), it is not in effect, nor is it likely to be re-activated. Wake up!Peace and an alert intelligence
ed
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209. At 5:36pm on 21 Nov 2008, Old-Man-Mike wrote:
"As a European it is my opinion that only America could have produced a Palin..."
As a U.S. citizen I am going to agree with that 1/2 way. I will take it a step further, only a state like Alaska could produce a Palin. As well as a few others, including my home state of WA. Redneck politics belongs to America exclusively.
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True Too,
And, pray tell, what was "Charlie Wilson's War", Apart from US providing funds, arms and training (and Madrassa education) for terrorists (sorry, "freedom fighters") like Bin Laden and Co. to carry out our proxy war (Jihad)?Peace and fearful symmetry
ed
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182. At 2:37pm on 21 Nov 2008, north_of_49 wrote:
"It is irrational to expect the GOP to admit that their loss was their fault. America seems to thrive on assigning blame. The likes of Beck, Limbaugh, Dobbs are all a-flutter on losing their main target. What will they do if Obama achieves some successes?"
Oh, that last part is easy. The GOP will take credit for it, even though they are the minority! Just watch.
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ref #209
Your Palin remark is similar to an American saying only the U.K could have produced Appeasers like Chamberlen and frauds like Ernst Bevin
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#205 robloop:
"#201 AsaScot
It is stupid blogs like yours that cause me to get scathing. An uncontentious blog, not to you, has brought from you a silly tirade. I have a brother, in-laws, and now a daughter living in the U.K. Their views support those of U.K. bloggers and then, unlike you evidently, I read."
And again another factual error, because my last post was 202, so are you referring to Simon21 at 201or my post at 202?
Assuming the latter, well I'm from the UK and I have a large familiy here the vast majority of whom support Labour, which like your statement proves nothing, nor does finding bloggers who share your views, you can find a blog to support any viewpoint, as I'm sure you are well aware, so why act as if this was some wild accusation? Does pointing out that you can't even get the name of the British PM right really qualify as a tirade? And I find it odd that someone who disdains others emotional reactions is getting so tetchy.
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Via Media and Mdalerwill,
And Wendell reminds us, Peace and Practiceed
"A change of heart or of values without a practice is only another
pointless luxury of a passively consumptive way of life."
-- Wendell Berry in "The Idea of a Local Economy"
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234 Ed,
Just finished Sand County Almanac this summer for the 1st time, along w. Abbey's "Desert Solitaire." Still digesting...
Here's to that Peaceable Kingdom.
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A Bouncy kitten! , but Citigroup(bank) still lost another 20%...
Peace and mendicant bankers
ed
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Here's what I heard....B.O. is going to appoint Sarah Palin to a new cabinet position to how a bi-partison aisle-crossing governing style. She would be heading the "Department Ensuring Fairness and Domestic Unifying Mission" or Def N Dum - Priority items on agenda are 1. Blacklist Katie Couric; 2. Penalize comedians who make more fun of GOP candidates than Dem candidates; and 3. Set up a well armed domestic militia, based and operating in Alaska, to keep the peace.
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#217 Exserviceman:
"Its one thing for Petraeus to suggest a 3 year timetable *after US forces have won a huge victory* and something completely different for Obama to suggest an 18 month plan while AQI is still very much alive and kicking with the battle still raging."
Sorry but bribing the Sunni's to switch sides is a huge military victory? Yes the increase in US military numbers has had an effect but the key to quieting things down has been paying former insurgents and Baathists to fight for the allied side, and they are already agitating for a larger role in the government, otherwise when the money dries up they are apt to have a change of heart and its back to square one.
"Historical example:
D-day minus one, June 5th 1944, US, UK and Canadian forces are ready to mount a "surge" into Normandy
May 7th-9th 1945
Nazi forces totally defeated."
Nazi forces totally defeated-mostly by the USSR you neglected to mention but it is a useful analogy, without the USSR to do most of the fighting the western allied forces would have been defeated. What D-Day and the subsequent allied drive east achieved was to prevent a Stalinist western europe, for which we should be duly grateful but lets not ignore the sacrifices of others in winning the war.
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234:
Forgot to add: I might contend with Wendell on one point, though- war is profitable, but just to a concentrated few. In this sense, it's anti-democratic.
Peace is more profitable, and to all of society, not just the select few.
The bloated, self-perpetuating defense establishment defends itself in part in the public eye and in Congress as a public works project- jobs, jobs, jobs!
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Via,
Good reading! Two of my all-time favourites, along with Walden and John Muir, and too many others to mention...(or keep up to date)
Peace and Literacy (?)
ed
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165, exservice.
"Where did you go to work? Africa and South America, or the Far East?"
The Middle East, primarily Iran (in toto about 18 years). I also spent four years in Europe and am in close contact with England and Wales through family and friends. Three of my childen attended English public schools.
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#238 As a Scot:
The USSR bore the brunt of the fighting, it's true, but was it obvious that they would try to Sovietize Western Europe? They bowed out of Austria peacefully, and did nothing when the Greek crisis resulted in the non-Communists taking control.
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Just heard that Clinton will be Secretary of State. Yuck. I hope Obama is as smart as people say. I wouldn't want that pair around me.
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Via Media,
[my emphasis]Speaking of Ed Abbey,
Peace and Monkeywrenches
ed
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188, Imma.
"Where Obama' birth certificate?
Why is the press uninterested in this?
Why is Obama keeping it away?"
Are you on Mars? His birth certificate has been presented and published countless times. Get a life. Or joint a weird sect. Maybe go to Alaska.
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230. Ed Iglehart,
Sorry, I don't see any equivalence between America helping the mujahideen of the time repel the Soviet invaders and cowardly Iran stealthily sending out its terror tentacles to try to strangle Israel.
About the only thing these two conflicts have in common is that weapons changed hands.
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Well, you wouldn't would you? to paraphrase Mandy Rice-Davies.Complain about this comment
223, Untrue.
It is obvious you read the news. It is obvious you believe the news. It is obvious that you have no personal understanding of the situation and therefore connot interpret the news.
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#242 Via-Media
"The USSR bore the brunt of the fighting, it's true, but was it obvious that they would try to Sovietize Western Europe? They bowed out of Austria peacefully, and did nothing when the Greek crisis resulted in the non-Communists taking control."
If there was no D-Day and no Allied army in western europe then the Soviets would probably have kept on rolling, not so much out of aggrandisment as to ensure they were never threatened from the west again. I have read somewhere that Stalin did have plans to invade France in 1945 if the allies hadn't opened a second front.
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246, Untrue.
"Sorry, I don't see any equivalence between America helping the mujahideen of the time repel the Soviet invaders and cowardly Iran stealthily sending out its terror tentacles to try to strangle Israel."
I have news for you. Iran doesn't care a fig for Israel. They just want America off its back.
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243. allmymarbles,
Hmmm, Clinton as Secretary of State? That could be good. Looks like Obama is constructing a team that will be tough on terror, and specifically tough on Iran. Didn't Clinton make some aggressive comments about Iran on her campaign trail?
Well, I suppose it could just be talk....
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#243 Allmymarbles:
"Just heard that Clinton will be Secretary of State. Yuck. I hope Obama is as smart as people say. I wouldn't want that pair around me."
Ah but in the SS job he can send them out of the country on a regular basis for the next four years, and to some very volatile and dangerous places...
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247. Ed Iglehart,
Some debating technique you have there. Why don't you just deal with the points I raised?
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God(s) help us!
Peace and flak jacketsed
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There be Pirates!
Avast!
ed
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251, Untrue.
"Hmmm, Clinton as Secretary of State? That could be good. Looks like Obama is constructing a team that will be tough on terror, and specifically tough on Iran."
As usual you have things backwards. The Secretary of State is the voice of the President. She won't set foreign policy. She has to be a good girl and take instructions. If she starts freelancing, she is OUT.
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Points? And they were...?Complain about this comment
248. allmymarbles,
It's equally obvious that you will do anything to obfuscate and avoid the fact that Iran arms, funds and trains Islamic terrorists whose single-minded aim is the murder of Israelis and the destruction of Israel.
250. allmymarbles,
You say, "Iran doesn't care a fig for Israel. They just want America off its back."
You mean Iran wants America off Israel's back?
If you mean Iran wants America off its own back the solution is quite simple: give up the bomb and stop the terror against Israel and against US troops in Iraq. That should do it.
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252, AsaScot.
"Ah but in the SS job he can send them out of the country on a regular basis for the next four years, and to some very volatile and dangerous places..."
I am afraid you are becoming very emotional, Asa.
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258, Untrue.
Earth to Mars....
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#259 allmymarbles:
"I am afraid you are becoming very emotional, Asa."
Maybe its just because its late but I'm not sure how to take that...
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256. allmymarbles,
Funny how, in common with so many others on this site, you can't debate without insult.
In effect what you are saying is Obama will dictate US foreign policy without taking any advice or pondering any feedback. I didn't realise the US was a dictatorship.
Wishful thinking there on your part. Are you people really Democrats? You behave like autocrats.
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"Appeasers like Chamberlen" - MagicKirin
Who?
"and frauds like Ernst Bevin"
Who?
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I want Israel off America's back.And how much comes back as AIPAC lobbying, I wonder...Peace and clarity
ed
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mdalerwill@224,
It is precisely because of the economy that US military spending (which is currently about 50% of the global total) will be cut - I'd guess by at least 25%. You're right that this is impossible while remaining in both Iraq and Afghanistant; Obama will withdraw from Iraq (indeed, Bush has already agreed a date, contrary to his long-time insistence that this would be a grave mistake). I wouldn't actually be surprised to see Obama withdraw from Afghanistan as well if he can't bully other NATO members into doing more. The USA is suffering from severe "imperial overstretch" - spending too much on the military. That's one big root of the financial crisis - see Joseph Stiglitz' and Linda Bilmes The Three Trillion Dollar War. The only way to pay for the Iraq war (especially while giving tax handouts to the rich) was to force the Fed into setting absurdly low interest rates, reducing the cost of the government's own borrowing, and allowing an asset/credit bubble which increased the tax take.
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"I want Israel off America's back." - Ed@264
Ed, I think you underestimate what the American elite gain from funding Israel: a powerful and reliable ally, economically (as well as politically) so dependent on them there is no chance of it breaking away. Of course, there's a big downside as well - the financial one you point out, and the huge obstacle to recruiting other allies in the region (Egypt has to be paid off on nearly the same scale as Israel to keep it on board). Overall, however, the advantages are such that Israel's fanboys here can stop wetting themselves, at least unless and until a real radical (as opposed to a moderate conservative like Obama), becomes POTUS.
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A few comments:
Yes, the media has been fawning over Obama...sometimes. They have fawned over others as well. Plus, they made Wright an issue, which they didn't do for Sarah Palin's pastor.
The media wasn't the only thing going for Obama. After all, the economy is tanking, and we are still in Iraq, and Afghanistan is getting worse.
However, for those who charge the media with left-wing bias, why did they give so few people from the left chances to attack Obama from the left? They considered Obama to be the winner of an early debate simply because of his remarks to Mike Gravel, "I'm not going to nuke anyone right now." (Personally, I think Gravel won that one, just as Paul won his debate after standing firm while Guliani smeared him.)
They made a big deal about Pastor Wright, and never gave Wright a chance to defend or explain himself. (Ironically some of the few voices I heard defending him were right-wing paleoconservatives.) The media attacked Jesse Jackson for saying Obama was "talking white", while ignoring Ralph Nader for saying the same thing. The media made Obama to be an opponent of the Iraq War, while he had Colin Powell as a key endorser, Rahm Emmanuel as his Chief of Staff, Biden as his VP and now Hillary as his Secretary of State. All those supported the Iraq invasion. Some still appear to.
I'm no Obama supporter. While he may be better than Bush and Clinton, he's still far worse than many candidates we could have had.
Oh, as for the military going Republican, Obama got the second-most financial donations from overseas US troops. The most went to a Republican... Ron Paul.
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Simply brilliant!
Peace and News
ed
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GM CEO To Continue Flying Private, Company Will Downsize Jet Fleet Awwwwwwww, poor things...
Peace and begging bowlsed
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National Debt Documentary Makes Oscar Shortlist
Ah, the perils of debt (sigh)Peace and solvency
ed
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We're in Dire Straits!
Money for nothing and your clips for free!
ed
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261, Asa.
Hint -- I am on your side.
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266, Nick.
You understand the relationship of Israel and the U.S. At a certain point, however, Israel could become somewhat problematical should the U.S. decide to moderate its attitude towards the Middle East. That probably will not happen given some of the people Obama has chosen so far.
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#204, 206, 207, 208 Jacksforge
Amazing, Jack! What a talent! The bilge spews forth endlessly!
The evidence is that you are an intolerant liberal of retarded persuasion who hasn't an original idea or argument in his head. I suspect that your very evident irritation (which in your case pleases me) emanates from being given a dose of unfamiliar truth that offends your vacuous conformity with those who, like one liberal blogger, wanted someone in the White House who had "no beliefs".
Just in case you haven't got it, despite appearances this blog is not the exclusive domain of liberals who resort to childish name-calling at anyone who has the audacity to buck their mostly sheep-like liberal conformity.
As to the BBC moderators liking me, I haven't any idea, but admire their commitment to freedom of expression which, if individuals of your ilk had their way, would end.
#233 AsaScot
My apologies for my 205 in which I mistakenly wrote 202 instead of 201 and for directed my harsh comments to you instead of Simon21. But as both of you were having a go at me on 201 and 202 I think you can understand how I managed to mess up when flicking between blogs. I think you will also now appreciate that it was not you I intended to accuse of a "tirade" and other things contained in that blog. Sorry, you didn't deserve that. However, if you consider other less then scintillating things you wrote in 204, 206, 207 & 208, I think you will appreciate why I was not in the mood for being charitable toward you either.
Thank you for, um, so courteously and gently correcting me on Gordon Bown's first name! God forbid I err when locked in mortal combat!
Incidentally, if I had noticed U.K. bloggers supporting Gordon Brown rather than cutting him up, I'm sure it would have made an impression that then would have tempered my comment, but I didn't. It was not a case of being selective, and incidentally, as in any free society I don't expect everyone to hold the same point of view, so considered it a bit pointless for you to get testy with me over that particular point.
I'm getting the impression that blog sites cause 'blog rage' no less than driving nowadays causes road rage.
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#262 Truetoo
You are absolutely right about the Democrats on this site behaving like "autocrats". There seems to exist among many here the impression that this site is their sole preserve and if one doesn't parrot their party line or reflect their values-devoid mindset, then the abuse, with childish name-calling, begins. Par for the course and real super-intelligent stuff!
I'm guilty of handing out sarcasm and abrasive remarks, but if you were to check back you would see how that developed after some pointless and stupid attacks, some revealing gross ignorance, that essentially emanate from gross intolerance towards anyone who doesn't see things their way.
There is little or no coherent discussion in such a pathetic atmosphere of intolerance.
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#233 AsaScot
Reference my 274. Another apology from me.
In 274 I made reference to blogs 204, 206, 207 & 208 and attributed them to you. When re-reading 274 I realized my mistake. That was intended for my sparring partner Jacksforge - above. Sorry about that, you're getting caught in the cross-fire!
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#244 Ed
Very interesting essay. Like most of Berry and Abbey, much to be slowly mulled over... Don't know why I waited so long to pick up copies of their works.
If you can find it, in a similar vein is "Noah's Garden" by Sara Stein. I think it's out of print, and I don't know if it's available your side of the Gulf Stream, but well worth the search.
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#249 As a Scot
You're probably right about Stalin. Still, the West had a lot of misperceptions about him and Soviet intentions toward the end and immediately after the War. And w. Yalta I think he was given every encouragement to believe that the West would not interfere if he set up a defensive sphere of influence.
But Austria still bucks the "out to rule the world" view of the Stalinist state. Finland, too- as long as they tread carefully in their neutrality, the Finns were allowed to govern their own affairs. If he were forced to take all of Europe, I suspect he was too much a practitioner of Realpolitik to consider trying to govern a hostile, freedom-loving empire.
I know, off topic, but if there are no other posts this weekend, well...
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I'd second (or Third) the one who called for a bit of temperance and moderation. If we can't be rational creatures and state our piece without insults, perhaps we should refrain from posting.
If any of us were discussing politics with an acquaintance of differing views, I doubt that we'd use any of the language to which we've stooped here...
And no, he/she/it started it is not a valid excuse.
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#232.MagicKirin: "Your Palin remark is similar to an American saying only the U.K could have produced Appeasers like Chamberlen and frauds like Ernst Bevin"
Does the name Charles A. Lindbergh mean anything to you - or Joseph P. Kennedy? Think on those when considering fraud and appeasement. My guess is that back in 1940 you would have been a card carrying member of the America First Committee, in which case it is unlikely that you would be in the position you are today.
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My impression of Sarah Palin: we are all likely discounting her too deeply.
First - the few appearances and interviews I have seen of her since the election reveal a remarkably coherent, capable person. That doesn't make her presidential material, but it does tend to put the lie to the impression she gave during her brief appearance in the campaign of an incoherent caricature of someones 'dream' conservative candidate. I believe she was severely misused by the McCain campaign handlers, who themselves understood their target audience very poorly.
Second - She did strike a remarkable resonance with large numbers of that target audience, who from the warmth of their response seemed almost desperate to be recognized by this campaign cycle. Whether they saw through the 'dress the paper doll' imagery or accepted it as an awkward tribute to their interests is hard for me to say, but she certainly out drew Mr. McCain, which I think is unprecedented here at the presidential level.
Third, it is apparent to me that she does unfeignedly represent several of the attitudes and interests of our white, socially conservative population (I am one of these), which is still the electoral base of the Republican party, and which will not go away even if the Republican party itself goes away.
Briefly - her family life represents a clear and joyful, unabashed affirmation of the Culture of Life that has always been essential to Christian faith, and is at the center of the renewal of Christianity throughout the world in this generation. (I know so many European readers have by now covered their ears in protest at such heresy, but there is more.) The appearance that Christianity and faith of every kind is under attack and presumed to be in retreat will make their adherents more jealous of their heritage, and ready for a popular champion.
- Her breezy can-do attitude echoes and reinforces the self confidence of millions of Americans who have taken responsibility for their own survival and success. These people are entrepreneurs, farmers (this explains why Kansas and the middle column of states is steadfastly Red, even though the party's actions are against our interests), people who live on their own resources as much as they can and disdain governmental intervention, and self- made folks of every sort including many who have made their way to the top of our financial heap.
For example, her unashamed championship of the development of oil and gas resources: 'get that pipeline built and send it down to help the lower 48', sounds like simple common sense and realism to a lot of Americans who see their hands tied by webs of regulations and concerns that they see as off the point in today's world of crises.
- Her upbringing in a small town, life at the edge of the wilderness, strong drive to achieve much more than could have been predicted - yes, the salmon catching, moose skinning, rifle packing beauty queen - fits the experience as well as the aspirations of a goodly number of us, much more than Dolly Parton's attributes ever did.
Although larger than in the last two tries, the margins of victory in this election were quite narrow in most states - the final results in one were announced just this week, I believe. America is more balanced, more centrist than the press or the partisans would show it to be. Elections and power can turn on a dime, or a single issue, gaff, or personality. No one should be ignored, or can be for long.
Some evidently wish the conservatives and people of faith would just go away. But peculiar interests have a way of persevering, even developing anew - If they did not, Europe would have a single currency and a common constitution by now, wouldn't it?
I believe the true evidence of a liberal mind is openness and courtesy to the other. That is another reason why I voted for Mr. Obama.
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# 280 David Cunard is back !
Hope you are OK David - all good wishes.
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Marbles
You open up an issue which is never mentioned on this blog.
Iran's desire for military strength is as much to stand up to Saudi Arabia as to Israel. In all the discussion about Israel's security, it is easy to overlook the historic alliances and rivalries in the Middle East and the distrust between Sunnis and Shias.
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281, KScurm.
Sarah Palin represents women of the mid-20th century, and not all of them. She has no place in today's political market. The women I knew from that era were out hunting up abortions.
The people who enthused over Palin were the uneducated, low-economic, evangelical right. There are not enough of them, fortunately, to provide her with a national future. She could, I guess, because of her connections, become a congresswoman or a senator. But that's it.
As to her family values pitch, her own family does not live up to it. There is scandal, and to spare. To me she represents racist white trailer trash. The country has gone beyond that.
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KScurmudgeon
Brilliant ! Sarah Palin as the Dolly Parton of American politics.
The trouble is that the clever Dolly has shown herself to be far shrewder than Ms Palin with an uncanny understanding of when to speak out and when to shut up.
If Palin really was as smart as Miss Parton, right wing politics would be unstoppable.
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283, eightypercent.
I am afraid I do not agree with you that there is a Sunni/Shia contest involved. The religious motivation I feel is overemphasized. It is more a question of success, wealth, and security. Religion may be the excuse for attaining those ends.
Middle Easterners are no different from ourselves. Our own politicians throw god into every other paragraph, but we see that for what it is. For a more accurate picture of what is involved, pretend the Middle East leaders are Americans.
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275. robloop wrote,
There is little or no coherent discussion in such a pathetic atmosphere of intolerance.
Too true, and it's a phenomenon that can be observed across BBC blogs.
But the other day I came across a fascinating take on the situation from a BBC perspective. While touring America on the BBC bus, World Have Your Say presenter Ros Atkins noted the intolerant attitudes of the Democrat supporters he encountered and blogged about it here:
http://worldhaveyoursay.wordpress.com/2008/11/18/democrats-i%e2%80%99ve-a-question-for-you/
This is noteworthy for its rarity: a BBC man taking a critical look at the left.
The comments are largely predictable - mostly defensiveness from Democrat supporters who will do anything to avoid a bit of introspection.
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# 286 ~ Marbles
Look at the influence of the Ayatollahs and tell me again that the influence of religious beliefs is over-exaggerated.
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284-allmymarbles -
I was expecting that. My post was about the people 'who enthused over Palin', more than it was about her. These are the people who gave power to GW Bush twice, to Newt Gingrich, and even to Ronald Reagan. They haven't been the majority for at least a generation but they are, along with other active minorities in our electorate, numerous and focused enough to make the difference in any given election, local, state, or national. That is the nature of our democracy and it gives the same opportunity to your demographic or array of interest groups as readily as it does to those you scorn.
So I feel your post is either wishfulness, or myopia. Things aren't as you describe them uniformly over all of this nation. You show symptoms of a disease that is too common on the Left as on the Right, the deliberate decision that one's own point of view is the most reasonable and therefore the only correct view.
We conservatives rail against the elitism and arrogance of the liberals, and just as you have done we understand that we are, in fact, the true majority. I have pretty much decided that the American people generally are not permanently of any one opinion, and so shift the balance here and there according to how they see conditions at the time. Every partisan's job is to persuade, which is better done by not bullying in the same breath.
My intent was to tell something about the Americans I know about here in Kansas - people like me.
For the record, every woman I spoke to about Gov. Palin, including every woman in my family, was outraged at Ms. Palin's selection for a post she was clearly not qualified for. They were outraged that the party leadership would pretend to respect and appeal to women, to conservatives, and to 'country folks' by subjecting Sarah Palin and everyone she was supposed to represent, to that cruel charade.
I join you in hoping for the best, for the best hope we have: an inclusive, non-divisive Obama administration.
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288, eightypercent.
Let us not forget that we were the ones who placed the mollahs in power to keep Russia at bay. It was not a revolution from the inside. And the mollahs use their religion as power - always the key word. By the way, before we dumped the mollahs on Iran everyone was swimming in bikinis.
Iranians are a sophisticated and highly intelligent people (and with a great sense of humor). Portugal, where I went after leaving Iran, was an intellectual comedown.
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284, allmymarbles -
You appear to have misunderstood my comment about Mrs. Palin's 'family values'.
The Palins' response to their teenage daughter's pregnancy was that a human life was a wonderful gift to their family, and that rather than covering their daughter with shame they embraced her, gave her their protection and support, and prepared to welcome both the grandchild and its father into their family.
What you find shameful has turned to strength for the Palin family.
This is parallel to the response to their Downs syndrome son - he is by his very existence a precious gift of joy to their family. The knowledge that he would have difficulties did not lead them to fear, anxiety or loathing, or abortion. Instead they accepted a very trying certainty willingly.
This is because they live in a culture of life, where life is always a good and precious gift, a gift to be revered, but also a source of that optimism (and consequent strength) that Americans are accused of having in excess.
I write too much, forgive me for that -
the Kansas curmudgeon
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289, KS.
The Republican Party is not what it was. The intellectuals have fled. Were some of the past Republicans first class? Absolutely. I think particularly of the much maligned Richard Nixon, who was brilliant. But there is nobody like that around anymore, or at least not as a power in the party. Strangely enough, it is now the Democrats who hold intellectual sway. That's a turnabout!
We, and I speak as an independent, are left with the dregs, Sarah Palin being a prime example. The Republican campaign threw its hat in the hog pen.
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# 290 ~ Marbles
Like you, I was in Iran at the time of the fall of the Shah and I find your claim that "we" put the mullahs in power a bit sweeping. I believe that the luke-warm western support for the Shah let a "genie out of the bottle" rather in the way that the Iraq war (and lack of post-invasion planning) allowed extreme Iraqi-on-Iraqi violence to become the problem rather than the solution.
I agree with you entirely about the sophistication of the Iranians.
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# 290
Should a Clinton appointment could be viewed as an invitation to war and influence peddling? The Senator from New York has made loud noises in favor of Israel and has threatened Iran.
Obama has made campaign statements that he would not allow Iran to have nuclear capability and, for example, asked the President of Israel how the USA could aid Israel.
The President of Israel, on HARDTALK this week, sought to turn the interview from peace and concentrate on developing hatred toward Iran, as do political Zionists who post here.
Thus, Richard Perle and William Kristol, as with the Iraq invasion, do beat the war drums in America for Israel. And, what more proven way to recover from economic Depression than war?
America has no native criminal class- except the Congress, said Mark Twain. The Mearsheimer and Walt report shows how the Israel Lobby buys and effectively controls the US Congress.
The “American Heritage” Institute and like organisations engage hired guns to produce arguments in favor of Israel’s desires and also offer holding pens for out-of-work politicos.
The TV evangelist Jerry Falwell claimed more than five million followers. After Israel gave him a Learjet, fundamentalists soon learned how much their chances of salvation would be improved by helping Israel.
The “schmere” is an effective technique- and has happier connotations than does a “bribe”.
The Clintons, it would appear, and are now reputed to have great financial worth. Thus, it could be hoped that they might serve their nation with single-minded dedication.
Special efforts must be made to obtain information from Iran, in addition to that pouring forth from Israel.
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# 292
Richard Nixon was not brilliant enough to lose his moral compass.
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289, KS.
This whole business about elitism is very confusing. What is elite? Being educated? Speaking intelligently?
We should look to a real example of elitism - and Bush fits the bill. Brought up in luxury, disdainful of the electorate and secluded from the lower classes -- that us, by the way. The only "elite" candidate who was running this time was John McCain. How can Obama be called elite? He got through school on student loans. And he had the burden of being black!
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291, KS.
"What you find shameful has turned to strength for the Palin family. This is parallel to the response to their Downs syndrome son - he is by his very existence a precious gift of joy to their family. The knowledge that he would have difficulties did not lead them to fear, anxiety or loathing, or abortion. Instead they accepted a very trying certainty willingly."
(1) I do not believe they knew ahead of time that the baby had Downs Syndrome. I think they found out when it was born and made political capital of it. Why do I think that? Amniocentesis is not a routine test and has risks.
(2) She was interviewed on video a couple of days before she told everyone she was seven months pregnant. It was a long interview, partly inside her office and walking outside in the street. She was absolutely not pregnant! The date of the interview is verified. The baby was her daughter's.
It is my guess that the daughter's second baby will be born in January, not December as publicized. What bothers me about all this is that Palin lied. If she said it was her daughter's that would have been fine. Of course, when her daughter got pregnant the second time she was stuck with the truth.
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298, eightypercent.
What did Nixon do? He spied on the opposition party. Oh, wow! They do it all the time. Two reporters made themselvers famous over it. Was it wrong to spy? Yes. Was it a hanging offense. No.
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293, eightypercent.
Sorry, we did put the mollahs in. Fact, not opinion. As an aside, Khomeni had been out of the country and on the British payroll for years, just in case ... who knows.... He was almost unknown in Iran.
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# 298
Burglary is usually frowned upon in a civilised society.
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# 299
"He was almost unknown in Iran"
Fact - this is not true.
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292 and 296, allmymarlbes -
I agree and agree again. The Republicans seem to have lost their stuffing, their way, and their purpose, except a vague remembered urge to gain power and a short-term vision to get their hands on great sums of cash and award it to certain friends. (Being responsible for recent experience would do that to you, I suppose.) Their expressions of 'principles' sound hackneyed and hollow - I believe they are. Of course, the Democrats couldn't beat Dubyah in either of the last two outings, and had about the same profile - lots of complaints, no persuasive vision. All societies need a vision. Maybe the significant element is leadership - coming from an individual like Barack Obama.
Elitist is a perjorative, I believe, used to describe those unlike yourselves who appear both remote and arrogant.
Both Bushes, of course were born in the 'purple', or whatever color describes 'old' power. My strongest complaint against McCain is that he demonstrated again and again that he really had no grasp of the interests of wage-earning Americans. Ditto, of course, the presidents Bush. A Texas accent, we have learned, doesn't make you country.
KScurmudgeon
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"Khomeni had been out of the country and on the British payroll for years, just in case" - allmymarbles
What's your evidence for the claim he was "on the British payroll"? I'mnot saying he wasn't, but it's unlikely on the face of it, and it's a claim I've never heard before.
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A lot of the righties here are whining about "intolerance" from the left. Which side was it, in the recent election, that was talking about "real Americans", hurling accusations of Marxism, black racism, terrorist sympathies, etc. at the other? How "inclusive" has the Bush regime "You're either with us or with the terrorists" been? Bunch of hypocrites.
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297, allmymarbles,
I write about opinion, and express my opinion. You have written about factual events, and given your opinions:
"I do not believe"
"It was a long interview, partly inside her office and walking outside in the street. She was absolutely not pregnant! " - your observation based on a video?
"It is my guess"
You are entitled to your opinions, particularly in the absence of sound evidence. I am delighted by their ringing endorsement of the joy of living.
And she is still not qualified to be vice president.
Yours,
KSc
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"Of course, the Democrats couldn't beat Dubyah in either of the last two outings" - KSCurmudgeon
Except of course that they did, at least in 2000 and possibly in 2004, but the Republicans cheated.
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# 304 ~ Nick
A quick trawl through the news shows why those that have little to offer are so fed up.
David Brooks, thoughtful conservative commentator, writes "I find myself tremendously impressed by the Obama transition ......... they're thinking holistically"
Senior Republican Senator Mitch McConnell Obama is "off to a good start".
Whilst it is a certainty that we will be back to the usual hostilities before too long, it is a frustrating time for those who want to continue banging on about the birth certificate or a non-existent fondness for terrorists (shot down in flames by Al Queda's graceless comments this week)
The current surge in support for the President-Elect shows just how much America was crying out for a return to thoughtful and energetic leadership.
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291. KScurmudgeon,
I fully agree with you on that. The extraordinary ongoing attack on Sarah Palin from the left is an exercise in intolerance and a real eye-opener. It is also quite incongruous for those who support abortion to call themselves "progressive." What is progressive about taking the life of the unborn? Regressive is more like it.
Though it became clear as time went on that Sarah Palin was out of her depth, there was no excuse for the furious assault on her from the very first moment she stepped on the stage. I guess the "liberal" left finds the lady a little too truly liberated for their liking.
264. Ed Iglehart,
Your Palestinian-supporting site typically gives one side of the picture. But the other side is perhaps inadvertently presented by Nick-Gotts in the course of his rant at 266: American aid to Egypt practically matches that of the aid to Israel. But I'm sure you will have nothing to say about American support for a country that barely knows what human rights is and treats refugees from other African countries like Nazi Germany treated the Jews.
266. Nick-Gotts,
Why the venomous attack on supporters of Israel here – all three or four of us? Is that too many for you? Nobody is "wetting themselves" over lack of US support. Israel defended itself just fine without America right up until and including the 1967 Six Day War. Granted that the situation is vastly different now and Israel will almost certainly need US support to thwart Iran's murderous ambitions. But never underestimate the Israelis. They have stood alone in the past and will do so, if necessary, in the future.
So Obama is a "moderate conservative" now? That must be so disappointing for you guys on the far left. Let's hope it's true.
304. Nick-Gotts,
You really do need to lighten up – unless you intend to drag the quality of this site down even further with your Israel's fanboys here can stop wetting themselves at no. 266 and this current nonsense about righties whining about intolerance. If you are referring to my comment at no. 287, Ros Atkins is anything but a righty and he has also noticed the intolerance from the Democrats of differing points of view. I note that he met roughly an equal number of Republicans on his extensive travels for the BBC and he didn't have the same thing to say about them.
If Obama hasn't turned out as you expected him to thus far, that's nobody's fault but those who voted for him. And if your great expectations of him are not currently being realised, why take it out on the right? Anyway, he'll soon be president so you guys should be overjoyed. Where are the celebrations?
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ref #304
To say intolerance exists on one side only is wrong.
Academia - The Duke 88 Ward Churchill Angela Davis among others
Media bias NYT, NBC and others
I do think that the intolerant on the left get more of a free pass.
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TrueToo,
I have complete contempt for uncritical Zionists such as you ("Israeli fanboys" as I termed them above - and since it evidently got under your skin, I'm sure I'll be using the term again), who cannot see anything wrong with Israel's land theft, collective punishments, murder of international observers, sowing of cluster bombs and bombing of villages in Lebanon, terrorist actions in Europe, etc., just as I have for antisemites.
What evidence do you have that Ros Atkins is "anything but a righty"? As I say, it was the McCain/Palin camp who were claiming throughout the campaign, that Obama was a Marxist, a secret Muslim, not entitled to run, a black racist, a terrorist sympathiser; so Atkins' one-sided comments suggest the exact opposite. We got all that disgusting rubbish from the righties here, which is why I call them hypocrites for whining about "intolerance". A common thread in several of those claims was that Obama would "abandon Israel" - hence my comment about the Israeli fanboys wetting themselves. Whether they believed this rubbish themselves or were simply lying, I can't say.
Obama is so far turning out exactly as I expected - a moderate conservative and strong supporter of Israel. As I noted above, there are very strong strategic reasons why the USA backs Israel. Obama will still be a vast improvement over Bush, and far preferable to McCain/Palin, so I rejoice in his election. Above all, he appears to have a fully functioning brain, unlike his predecessor and his opponents. I believe the state of the US and the world will actually force him into some fairly radical policies.
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# 308 says that Ros Atkins met roughly an equal number of Republicans ... and he didn't have the same thing to say about them.
So are you on a single-handed mission to make up for any perceived previous lack of rightwing invective ? If so, you're doing quite well - although you do go on a bit.
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"I do think that the intolerant on the left get more of a free pass." - MagicKirin
Well you would, wouldn't you?
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# 310
The management of WHYS has evidenced a disgusting absence of minimal ethics in its advancement of pro-Israel propaganda.
That is an explanation for its support by
our Zionist fans.
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# 303
Khomeini spent a long exile in Paris.
Strange things happen there among political exiles, among them, being supported and dropped by various intelligence services is fairly common.
Iran has a lot of oil, and the Anglos were paranoid about the suspected strength of the left in Iran.
Thus, the USA fostered the revolution that put in the Shah.
In short, the claim that Khomeini was supported by the British while he was in France is plausible, as would be a claim that it was also done by the French.
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Khomeini spent almost all his 14 years in exile in Najaf, Iraq. He was briefly in Turkey before Iraq, and spent 4 months in France at the end when Saddam Hussein forced him to leave Iraq. some simple fact-checking would be a good idea, Xie_Ming. These particular facts took me under 1 minute to discover.
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ref #312
and they do
Was any action taken against the Duke 88?
How long did it take action against churchill who lied on his resume and engaged in plagirism?
Has NYT changed it's ways since writing an unsupported front page article about an affair McCain was having with a lobbyist?
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ref #310
I have no problem being called an Israeli fan boy by such intolerant people as you and Ming
Israel is one of the great nations of the world and I am proud that the U.S stands with them.
As far as Lebanon the Lebanese people need to look in the mirror for harboring a terrorist group like Hezbollah and allowing their country to be used as a missle launching sight.
I will not waste any tears, nor will I blame Israel for defending itself.
Lebanon when it had a pro Israel PM was a much better place.
The international bodies such as the U.N the IRC and the Elders will never be able to apologize enough for all the harm and malice they have inflicted on Israel.
It is good that progressive nations like the U.K and U.S have the moral courage to stand against them
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"I will not waste any tears, nor will I blame Israel for defending itself." - MK
Right, all those wicked Lebanese children really had it coming to them, didn't they?
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Xie,
It worked in 2002/3, but only to delay (and intensify) the inevitable reckoning...Kansas Curmudgeon, There are a couple of fellow Kansans you might like to look up, Stanley Lombardo is a true poet, and Wes Jackson a true farmer. Both admirable. From Stan's Hesiod, And Elitism, to me resides in the mind of those who feel elite. The rest of us either resent their (self-appointed) status or (mistakenly) admire/envy them, or (most, I hope) simply consider them unworthy of attention...
80% (295), tying yourself in nots?
Too, It is an organisation similar (in legal status) to AIPAC, if of lower profile and financial power. The facts and figures presented are verifiable by reference to US govrnment documentation. I think examination will shoe Egypt to be a relatively poor stepchild...But I've plenty to say about American support for a country that barely knows what human rights is and treats its own internal refugees like Nazi Germany treated the Jews - Israel.
Peace and "This isn’t Kansas anymore Toto."
ed
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307. eightypercent,
The current surge in support for the President-Elect shows just how much America was crying out for a return to thoughtful and energetic leadership.
You mean Obama will look before he leaps?? Let's hope so.
311. eightypercent,
Nope, I ain't on no invective mission. For invective, look to your fellow-travellers on the left, starting here on this site. It will offer you a rich field for research.
310. Nick-Gotts,
But you have no contempt for Palestinian suicide bombers, no doubt. You guys on the left seem to enjoy wallowing in your misery. Get over it. Obama is in, Republicans are out. Why can't you celebrate that fact or is that you must have something to complain about?
I'm not an uncritical Zionist. I have criticised Israeli terrorists who attack Arab civilians and I have done so on this site. You know that, so why are you misrepresenting me? Israel is far from perfect but it certainly doesn't deserve the endless baying for its blood exhibited by the far left in alliance with the Islamists. Why aren't you seething with anger about the genocidal Islamists in Khartoum, for example, or do they somehow not warrant your contempt? Why no withering attack on China for supporting the genocide in Darfur with weapons sales out of lust for oil?
If you want to know about Ros Atkins, go to World Have Your Say and view his profile. Someone who lists South Africa's far left Weekly Mail newspaper as part of his reading matter can hardly be a righty, or even a centrist.
Do you find it that difficult to believe that there can be a left winger out there who is big enough to do some introspection about his own side and honestly report his conclusions?
Actually, here's another one: Google Camile Paglio on Sarah Palin. She presents some really incisive and constructive criticism of her feminist sisters over their knee-jerk reaction to Palin.
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Fact - The media wanted the story of "first black man becomes President" and would not let anything get in that (racist) way.
Fact - Most journalists are left wing
Fact - Obama's links with extreme left wing groups were hidden away until after the election (ie Ayers and Weather Underground)
Fact - A tape of Obama allegedly saying that Israel was committing genocide was not released by the LA Times
Fact - The media went after "Joe The Plumber" with a vengeance, showing that if they are determined enough, they can find out pretty much everything about a person in a matter of days. But of course there was no such intense scrutiny for any Obama supporter.
Fact - The media constantly harped on about anti-Obama racism amongst whites but completely ignored pro-Obama racism amongst blacks
Fact - The media always used the biggest margin of Obama victory polls - which doubled his actual election margin of victory
Fact - States were called for Obama immediately with 0% of the vote counted. This completely ignored past mistakes in 2000 and 2004 when states were called for the Democrats, only to actually go to Bush.
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Calling things facts doesn't make them facts
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dhimmi,
Great! I'm really having a good laugh at your ludicrous whining! Keep it up! You lost! Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!
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Oh by the way, dhimmi: putting "Fact" in front of a piece of egregious rubbish doesn't make it true!
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# 321 ~ requires a whole new dictionary meaning for the word "fact"
From, now on, the word fact - a la Dhimmi - will mean "resentful right wing reaction to the election of a new Democratic President of the United States of America'
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319. Ed Iglehart,
Right, the well-worn but no less insulting comparison of Israel to the Nazis trotted out with numbing regularity by those who know nothing about the Nazis or the Israelis and can't think for themselves. It says nothing about Israel and everything about their own lack of a moral compass.
Meanwhile here's some information for those who stubbornly insist, against all the evidence, that Iran is not a terrorist state:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/920651.html
It's from a left wing Israeli paper, so don't worry guys, it wont bite you.
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# 315
Khomeini left Iran on Nov. 4, 1964
and left An-Najef on Oct 6, 1978.
If your are sure that his first years of exile were in Turkey and not in France, then I must be in error.
Have you established how long he was in Turkey or when he arrived in an-Nahef?
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322. Ed Iglehart,
323; 324. Nick-Gotts,
325. eightypercent,
I note that your responses to dhimmi at no. 321 would not be out of place in a children's playground, and they'd have to be pretty immature children. That wasn't what I meant by celebrating Obama's victory.
How about actually responding to the points he made, or is it that you know he's correct but aren't big enough to admit it?
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Both Hanna Arendt and Albert Einstein liked the Israeli leaders to Nazi tactics in their letter to the New York Times.
Is anyone interested in the documentation for the intervening years?
It is obvious ( I should think) that Israel is following a policy of religio/ethnic hatred, apartheid and ethnic cleansing.
When Medical Major Baruch Goldstein machine-gunned more than 150 people at worship in a Mosque, he had been making well-received speeches about Israel's "demographic" problem.
There was subsequently a massive funeral parade, with placards procliming the rightness of Dr. Goldstein's "solution".
There was even an impressive memorial erected that served as a site of pilgrimage for several years. (The memorial has since been quietly removed).
Israel continually tries to conceal the evil doings of a large proportion of its people.
It is ironic that those who bewail the the genocide of the Nazis seek to repeat similar processes against those religiously described as "without souls".
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# 321
If Obama indeed said that "Israel was committing genocide", I admire his honesty
and may revise my opinion of what his administration portends.
Does anyone wish documentation of Israel's genocide?
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# 328
No
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TrueToo,
The "points" dhimmi made are not worthy of any response beyond mockery. Some are simply false (e.g. the one about Ayers), others are trivial (e.g the last one); others again I couldn't even make out what (s)he was trying to say (e.g. the penultimate one). Do you know the derivation of "dhimmi" by the way? Why do you think someone would choose such a pseudonym?
I condemn all Palestinians attacks on civilians. I have contempt for those who train suicide bombers. Those who carry them out are surely more courageous than those who kill civilians from a safe distance, but otherwise just as wrong. Of course, you'll now just repeat your lies about what I have said.
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Dhimmi # 321
Obviously, you are possessed with the "Ronald Reagan Syndrome." It was that mischievous "luv'ble" little Irish leprechaun who is responsible for the coining of the phrases "bad is good, good is bad, lying is truth, truth is lying", etc.,. The jingoism has become a virtue within the GOP and right wing conservatives in the US of A. But it didn't work this time around. Most citizen awoke from the nightmare living under these phrases.
A nation went wild and elected the mischievous leprechaun. Isn't it any surprise why GW Bush embraced Ronald Reagan as a role model of some sort? Of course, the nation later found out the mischievous great one wasn't in charge after all, it was the Neo-conservative right wing henchmen in the GOP who were pulling the strings. It remain to be seen if Ronald Reagan, after all, was brain dead before he even left the presidency.
The true FACTS are the little Vietnam War deserter (Need I mention any names?) did more damage in four years, let alone eight years, than the mischievous leprechaun did in eight.
The nation is now suffering for that combination of 16 years these two did. The nation, although responding too late, decide to bring in a Democrat who happens to be a black American to clean up the mess the USA has created under these two conservatives.
Those are FACTS staring at you right in the face. But it's going to take a miracle to repair the damages the USA suffered during the last eight years. If President elected Obama can achieve in repairing this in eight years, let alone in four, than he will be the greatest president in USA history.
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332. Nick-Gotts,
The "points" dhimmi made are not worthy of any response beyond mockery, you say and then proceed to make at least some attempt to respond to them. You could have done that in the first place.
Again, you prove my point with your "condemnation" of suicide bombers, which you immediately modify with the judgement of them as "more courageous than those who kill civilians from a safe distance."
It's like a sickness among the left. You simply cannot unambiguously come out and condemn Palestinian suicide bombing. There's some unwritten rule that you always have to modify it, explain it or justify it in some way. Yet at every opportunity you condemn Israel's actions against terrorists, in the course of which civilians are killed, without linking those actions to Palestinian terror and omitting to mention that Israel is indeed defending herself against that terror. There's your hypocrisy in a nutshell.
I'll take your latest statement to mean that you consider Palestinian suicide bombers to be more courageous than those who strap bombs to mentally disturbed Iraqi women and blow them up in a market at a safe distance by remote control.
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Too,
and who trotted out the Nazis (with numbing regularity by those who know nothing about the Nazis or (probably) the Israelis and (certainly) can't think for themselves.)?Complain about this comment
#271 Allmymarbles:
"261, Asa.
Hint -- I am on your side."
Sorry, guess it was just getting late. :)
I do think Hilary can be useful at State, she's a capable polittician, one of the party's big guns, and the Clinton name still has cachet abroad. And on the other side not having her in the cabinet would make her a focus for discontent, real or invented by the likes of FOX.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
TrueToo,
Suicide bombers clearly are "more courageous than those who kill civilians from a safe distance." I know you have a rooted objection to complex truths, such as that wicked acts, and wicked people, can also be courageous; and that both sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict commit atrocities - but it's not one I share.
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"I'll take your latest statement to mean that you consider Palestinian suicide bombers to be more courageous than those who strap bombs to mentally disturbed Iraqi women and blow them up in a market at a safe distance by remote control." TrueToo
Exactly so. The latter are utterly contemptible.
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ref 318. At 12:09pm on 22 Nov 2008, Nick-Gotts wrote:
"I will not waste any tears, nor will I blame Israel for defending itself." - MK
Right, all those wicked Lebanese children really had it coming to them, didn't they?
No they did not but the blame lies entirely with the Lebanese govt.
Or do you think Israel should have just taken the bombing without responding
All the death and destruction lies soley on the Lebanese and their terrorist allies side.
Israel is not responsible.
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#286 Allmymarbles:
"Middle Easterners are no different from ourselves. Our own politicians throw god into every other paragraph, but we see that for what it is. For a more accurate picture of what is involved, pretend the Middle East leaders are Americans."
Or maybe pre world war II europe? With power and land grabbing being justified in the name of god and country. I doubt Syria or Lybia are anymore thrilled by the prospect of a nuclear Iran than the USA is, and Iran is probably far more worried about a resurgent Iraq than anything Israel might do. A more nuanced approach to the middle could produce big dividends, fingers crossed e may see that come January.
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#298 Allmymarbles:
"What did Nixon do? He spied on the opposition party. Oh, wow! They do it all the time. Two reporters made themselvers famous over it. Was it wrong to spy? Yes. Was it a hanging offense. No."
That is correct, and if Nixon had simply let the investigation run its course he would probably have survived. It was his attempt to cover up that was his undoing as it led to wider questions about his activities, and the infamous tapes.
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foxtrottango1,
That's utterly disgusting, as well as historically a ludicrous distortion. Nothing the Israelis have done goes one inch toward justifying the Nazi holocaust. Even if they exterminated every Arab, this would not retrospectively justify it.
"No they did not but the blame lies entirely with the Lebanese govt." - MagicKirin
Well if, as you admit, the Lebanese children did not deserve their fate, why did you say you would shed no tears over them? In any case, if you drop bombs, at the very least a large share of the responsibility for the resulting deaths is yours. Failure to admit this is disgusting moral cowardice. Incidentally, Israel was responding to the kidnap of two of its soldiers, not to bombing. Most of the Israeli casualties in the war were soldiers; most of the Lebanese, civilians. So much for Israel's efforts not to harm civilians. How does dropping cluster bombs that are still killing Lebanese children fit into this?
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# 341
By going to the zope- gush-shalom site and searching for Sharon + Lebanon+ interview + Avnery
you will obtain Sharon's goals in planning an attack on Lebanon (twice).
as Sharon detailed them to Avnery months before the actual attack.
Once the plans are made, Israel waits for a pretext or provokes a pretext. Earlier, it was a murder in London! In the most recent invasion, the capture of two soldiers was the pretext. (These matters are customarily resolved by a prisoner exchange).
The goals of the most recent invasion included:
1) Installation of a puppet regime
2) Driving the Palestinians into Syria and, hopefully, thence to Jordan.
3) Controlling the headwaters of the Litani.
All failed.
In an act of viciousness, the Israeli Chief of Staff (an Air Force type) caused four million cluster bomblets to be sprayed over Shia areas in the final hours of the conflict.
[The BBC had a special on this this week]
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#321 dhimmi:
"Fact - The media wanted the story of "first black man becomes President" and would not let anything get in that (racist) way."
Actually before the primaries most of the media appeared to expect Clinton to be the democratic candidate, it wasn't until after Iowa that they really took the chances of an Obama victory seriously.
Fact - Most journalists are left wing
and your evidence for that is...?
"Fact - Obama's links with extreme left wing groups were hidden away until after the election (ie Ayers and Weather Underground)"
Well maybe it was hidden away if you were living on Mars but the rest of us had to read these allegations rehashed endlessly.
"Fact - A tape of Obama allegedly saying that Israel was committing genocide was not released by the LA Times"
Though they did publish a story based on the tape months earlier which contradicted the allegation.
"Fact - The media went after "Joe The Plumber" with a vengeance, showing that if they are determined enough, they can find out pretty much everything about a person in a matter of days. But of course there was no such intense scrutiny for any Obama supporter."
You mean supporters like Bill Ayres, Steve Rezko, the Reverend Wright, no hardly heard a word about them...
"Fact - The media constantly harped on about anti-Obama racism amongst whites but completely ignored pro-Obama racism amongst blacks"
Seriously, have you been on Mars?
"Fact - The media always used the biggest margin of Obama victory polls - which doubled his actual election margin of victory"
Unless you checked sites which analysed the polling results in detail, like fivethirtyeight.com, which predicted the margin with a high degree of accuracy well in advance, but then that would have required you to read and think wouldn't it?
"Fact - States were called for Obama
immediately with 0% of the vote counted. This completely ignored past mistakes in 2000 and 2004 when states were called for the Democrats, only to actually go to Bush."
The states that were called immediately were those where there wase no doubt about who they had gone for, and the media called them just as promptly for McCain as Obama. States where there was any doubt were not called, indeed Missouri was only finally called this week.
Fact-Sticking the word 'Fact' in front of a statement doesn't make it any truer.
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The definition of "genocide" will be required
and those interested should download and save it:
http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide/officialtext.htm
Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:
1) the mental element, meaning the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such, and
2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called genocide.
Article III described five punishable forms of the crime of genocide: genocide; conspiracy, incitement, attempt and complicity.
The forcible transfer of children is one of the five acts defined as constituting genocide.
Now, the leading politicians in Israel do not advocate what they call "genocide", they speak of "forced transfer".
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337. foxtrottango1,
You write uneducated rubbish about the Nazis and the Jews. But I doubt that you'll stay around to debate it. I guess you'll be too afraid of learning something that will challenge your foul prejudices.
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Good grief, another thread hijacked by the antisemities and the apologists for Israel.
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348. Nick-Gotts,
Well, hijack it back.
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# 343, Nick-Gotts wrote: "Even if they (Jews) exterminate every arab, this would not retrosprectively justify it."
Wow, and you call me "utterly disgusting...historically ludicrous distortion."
Don't tell me, you claim to be one of the "chosen" ones!
Well, I don't believe you are and obviously the Nazis didn't either because they also discovered they were the "master race", didn't they? And if it wasn't for those non-jews (40-50+ million compare to the 6-million jews Germany murdered), they almost succeeded, didn't they? You own a debt to the rest of the other religions that sacrificed their young to save the jews from total extinction, otherwise you might not be here to tell the story, wouldn't you?
#347, TrueToo wrote: "I guess you'll be afraid of learning something that will challenge your foul prejudices."
First of all, I don't have anything against Arabs or Jews. But since you insist I do, I am not too afraid to tell you in your face that you too, will become the past. The world cannot take much more of the hatred that you have for other religions and races!
One does not need to be a prophet to tell you the world will change for better or worse come the year 2012.
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# 348 Nick-Gotts
Happens every Saturday until every wild accusation that can be made by either side has been made.
And TT - if we try to change the subject and talk about the hope that lies within America's election of a new President, we just get shouted down and inundated with a lot of conspiracy-theory nonsense.
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foxtrottango1,
1) I'm not a Jew, nor an Arab. I'm an English atheist living in Scotland.
2) If you can't understand that one atrocity does not justify another, either in advance or retrospectively, my contempt for you is unbounded.
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# 351
Apart from the awful economic situation that Obama will face (and the FDR-style powers that will be required to handle it)
There are two big question marks:
1) can the culture of political corruption be corrected?
2) In the face of Israeli influence and the efforts of sympathisers thereof within the USA, will the US administration treat Iran in an intelligent fashion?
3) Those who are old enough will recall that there were always die-hards who hated FDR. Their equivalent will continue to hate Obama today.
The difference is that, in those times, the ordinary folk of the Bible Belt were populists and Democrats. Today, they have been manipulated into thinking that Jesus loves the Republican Party. Will they persist as hard times descend?
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In the interests of lightening the mood here (and Xie Ming, you really do take the biscuit for unleavened doom and gloom) can I suggest that anyone who hasn't already done so takes up Ed's kind offer at # 268 and revisits last nights HIGNFY.
It's well worth it I promise.
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Xie, did David Irving tell you to think that?
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Exercise and stress-relief are bad for you, apparently.
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Ed (#230):
Toward the end of the Russian Afgan War, Bin Laden did get to run around in the mountains pretending to be a freedom fighter, but he was never a part of the Mujahideen.
After the Russians left Afghanistan the Mujahideen went home and became local warlords in the north.
When the US first put troops on the ground, these freedom fighters formed the northern Alliance and defeated the Taliban.
They always regarded Bin Laden as a charlatan.
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351. eightypercent,
Ain't no way you can get shouted down on the Internet. If someone is shouting at you, just scroll past.
354. eightypercent,
...take the biscuit for unleavened... was quite funny, so thanks for the chuckle.
What's a HIGNFY? (I generally avoid clicking on links when there's no clue as to what they are about; and that's why I don't use the HTML trick myself of replacing the address with text because I prefer people to see whence I'm linking.)
And yes, Xie Ming is quite overbearing. He's a relentless doom and gloom copy 'n paste propaganda machine. I went head to head once with him for some time on another blog. It was like trying to communicate with a robot.
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They've been singing this song since the Nixon administration. Here is how it happened. After the stunning success of the New Deal, the right began branding everything FDR did 'socialist' and 'communist.' This came to a head with Senator Joseph McCarthy (Republican, of course) took up the cause of extreme abuse of anyone that could be, rightly or wrongly, accused of being a communist. The tide started to turn when he was foolish enough to attempt to do this to Edward Murrow, who publicly butchered McCarthy and his lies. It didn't end the Red scare at once, but it was the crack that was the beginning of the end. The right now had a problem: they were used to a weak and corrupt media who would parrot any lie, and they quickly found out the media wouldn't play ball anymore. The newly strong and honest media kept the Right and the Left honest. However, after vietnam, Nixon decided it was time to declare war on the media (he may have really believed the media was against him - Nixon was not completely sane) and he stared branding the media 'liberal.' And that has been the cry of the right ever since. It's code for: the news isn't reporting the facts we give them, but are actually doing Murrow style fact checking. This has worked out well from the 80's and 90's, but now the media's complete buckling to the right had hurt it. Many now by-pass the official media and get their news online.
The lesson for the media: Murrow was right. The truth is your business. Murdoch style 'happy news' will lose you stature.
It remains to be seen if the American media will improve of continue to to just parrot political statements.
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350. foxtrottango1,
You own a debt to the rest of the other religions that sacrificed their young to save the jews from total extinction
Rubbish. The allies fought the war to defeat Germany, not to save the Jews.
Now go and read more Irving.
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#282. eightypercent: "#280 David Cunard is back !
Hope you are OK David - all good wishes."
Many thanks 80% and Ed earlier - but it's disappointing to see that nothing much has changed; the merits and faults of gay marriage were given a thorough airing some time back and the right and wrongs of Israel as seen through the eyes MagicK and his followers continue to go 'round in circles. The major plus that I can see is that it appears that Mrs Clinton's talents are to be used in a creative way which, for we Clinton supporters during the Primaries, is very good news indeed. Perhaps a stepping stone to the Presidency in 2016: Secretary of State for the first term, Vice-President for the second, and thence the Candidate.
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316 David_C:
Welcome back, hope all went well.
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One can see, given the (mainly) vehement opinions expressed here on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict/situation/struggle etc, why there is still no lasting solution.
To find one, both sides are going to have to put aside their histories and pain, and look to the future. I have no expertise here, nor am I particularly well read on the subject, but for what it is worth I do think the following:
1) Israel has a right to exist.
2) The Palestinians have a right to a homeland, and it has a right to exist.
3) Both sides should recognize each other's right to exist.
4) Israel should cease building settlements, and continue to dismantle them.
5) Hamas/Hezbollah and the Palestinians should cease all terrorist activity.
6) Israel should cease military aggression.
This list is not complete ...
but eventually a way must be found.
Peace and hope.
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TT - did I think before I used the word 'unleavened' ? Yes. Am I dismayed by Xie Ming's constant sniping ? Oh yes.
HIGNFY is Have I Got News for You - who were all in particularly good form last night and deserve a look (even from the most serious doom-mongers amongst us). What bets on Frank Skinner as a future permanent Chairman ?
And a second welcome back to David Cunard who has always been a contributor able to take us out of current obsessions - either back into history or towards a more enlightened future.
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I'd like to join David's welcoming comittee. David has the rare gift of actually looking at issues from the other side's viewpoint, which makes his contributions most welcome.
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selfevident, #363, I second that. Constant sniping from one side or the other gets us (and them) nowhere.
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selfevidenttruths@363,
I could sign up to that.
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So what do all think of Obamas plan to create 2.5 million jobs fixing bridges, roads and wind energy? I can see the clerk from the local clothing store Mervyns that just went belly up looking forward to digging in the dirt, hammering forms and finishing concrete.
What a crock of re warmed liber stupid soup, er kool-aid,... touted by all the networks (include the BBC) as "wonderful" and an answer to the stuggle of unemployed middle managers in thier fifties everywhere.
All those former coffee servers from nearly defunct Starbucks will be glad to live in the desolate midwest of Wyoming or western Texas setting up wind towers, setting the base form, tying the steel and pouring the concrete. Heck, once you do that it's easy to step into a crane and erect a wind ytower without years of training and experience.
And the disenfranchised Auto worker from Detroit would love to leave his home for a mobil home in the tornato rectangle, rigging and wiring poles and setting up an electrical grid, heck, its just like installing the dashboard in a Ford Focus.
Two million four hundred thousand and swarming into unknown fields with out training or experience,.. ya'll got to be crazy not in seeing that this is nonsense.
Just words, just speeches and the masses will say 'sieg heil'.... OMG..
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Hey Doug, I take it you are not convinced! Yes it is ambitious, but the goal of energy security has much to commend it. What if, against the odds I suspect, the USA is energy independent in 10 - 15 years? What if, as a result, the USA becomes the world's leading expert in the manufacture and installation of green energy systems? What if millions of people learn new skills, and take up new jobs as a result?. Sure, it'll probably be screwed up, hell most things started by the government are, but you managed to put a guy on the Moon did'n't you? This strikes me as been just as worthy a cause.
By the way, I think the 'sieg heil' reference is a little off. I can understand your economic skepticism, but these weird remarks are just, er, well weird. Actually what would you do about your nation's infrastructure, and dependance on foreign oil?
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#363
I'd like to agree with that too
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303, Nick.
"What's your evidence for the claim he (Khomeni) was "on the British payroll"? I'm not saying he wasn't, but it's unlikely on the face of it, and it's a claim I've never heard before."
This sort of thing is not published in The New York Times, nor in Le Monde. Both France and England, with Carter as front man, were involved in the Iranian Revolution of 1979. #314, Xie, knows what I am talking about.
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315, Nick.
You are correct that Xie was in error about Khomeni's movements. But that does not dispute what I have said. i think you were not close to the situation and did not understand either the reasons for, or the execution of, the revolution. Neither newspapers nor Google provide you with government agendas.
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Doug, you could just give up, or come to the balmy shores of the UK, where our current government is busy taking decisions that ironically have me as worried as you are about Obama's plan. The difference is that your country has strength in depth, and ours is looking like a one-trick pony (the financial services sector), that has become disasterously lame.
Yes governments seem to have a habit of screwing things up, especially when it comes to spending our money. Yet we rely on them to provide certain services which we agree, are beyond the purview of the individual. Those we don't agree on are, in the main, what we argue about at elections.
Personally, I am a liberal, but I share many of the concerns of fiscal conservatives, and libertarians, and I can see where you are coming from.
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#369 Selfevidenttruths:
"Hey Doug, I take it you are not convinced! Yes it is ambitious, but the goal of energy security has much to commend it. What if, against the odds I suspect, the USA is energy independent in 10 - 15 years?"
Even a partial success would be worth the effort and for those of the right unconvinced of the environmental case just imagine the impact on Russia, Iran, and Venesuela if oil prices tumbled to $30 dollars a barrel or $20? Ladies and gentlemen Wind turbines are the new ICBM's, solar arrays the new stealth bombers; energy security=national security.
Now I understand that people may not want to change jobs and learn new skills but look at the state of the economy and the impact of foreign competition and tell me the alternative?
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allmymarbles@371,372,
I asked for some actual evidence of the claim (and let me add to that request, evidence for the further claims about France and Carter). Do you have any? And do you really think I'm going to take anything said by Xie_Ming seriously?
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DougTexan@368,
Many of the jobs manufacturing renewable energy systems could of course be cited in - say - the "rustbelt", where I understand jobs are needed. There would also be many jobs in planning, acquiring the necessary land, research, administration... Those actually involved in erecting turbines or solar collectors would be a relatively small proportion; and I doubt you'd find much difficulty in recruiting - there's likely to be a shortage of construction jobs in the next few years, or hadn't you noticed?
Setting that aside, it's interesting that you talk of "Kool-Aid", and say:
"Just words, just speeches and the masses will say 'sieg heil'."
"Obama is Jim Jones", "Obama is Hitler" - why not just say it outright?
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375, Nick.
That is a most naive request. As for your not taking me seriously, I really don't care.
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375. Nick-Gotts,
I second that motion. The idea that Holocaust denier Xie Ming is an authority to be taken seriously on any issue is ridiculous.
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David_C
As you will have noticed there appear to be many on the blog during your absence suffering from childhood traumas originating from being sat in their pushchairs facing forwards with no kind word from the parent pushing behind.
The panic and anxiety, fears and phobias have been obvious for all. Be thankful that you only had to suffer a few cotton swabs and gauze sponges before returning to the fray, because the thread is beginning to smell from the terry towelling and disposable nappie odours here. Personally, I am praying for a change!
Congratulations to your candidate Hillary on getting a top job.
HILLARY CLINTON. ?
C unard to the rescue!?
L ike to hope she will gel with all.
I nterval until 2016? And Michelle and the moose?
N o place for Bill okay, but what about Biden?
T ime is a great healer so time will tell!
O bama must have b*lls of steel.The USA now too!
N ever say never, say never, say never......
.
Welcome back.
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376 Nick:
I think Doug was actually referring to what he sees as the 'uncritical worship' of Obama. Agree with your first paragraph.
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David Cunard.
Welcome back. I hope all the nurses were nice to you.
We missed you. We had to handle the nutters all on our own.
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selfevidenttruths,
The claim that there is uncritical worship of Obama is (a) itself false, so far as I can see (the only people referring to him as "the Messiah" are the right) and (b) could easily be made in other ways. Maybe he'd like to explain his offensive comparisons himself?
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allmymarbles,
So a request of evidence of a claim is "naive"? On the contrary, it is naive to accept a claim without evidence. If you don't have evidence, why do you accept it? Your argument, if I can dignify it with the term, appears to be "There's no evidence of this conspiracy - that just shows how cunning them are!"
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301, eightypercent.
Khomeni was supported by religious hardliners. His followers were involved in rioting which included a heinous massacre of unveiled women at Toop Khaneh, in Tehran. (My friends escaped by a hair's breadth.) Khomeni was exiled to the joy of everyone except the hardliners.
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I see another of my Comments did not get published!
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383, Nick.
I am finished here.
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382 Nick:
Well, I would'n't mind hearing an explanation, but it seems to have been a one-off post. I find those comparisons offensive too. If he meant what I thought he meant, he should have phrased it like me! lol
Not that I think that, although there maybe some who are a little unrealistic in their expectations. I do remember feeling optimistic in '97 ...
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"I do remember feeling optimistic in '97" - selfevidenttruths
I didn't - I remember quipping that as Labour always moved right when in power, we could expect Blair to invade Poland. Well, I got the country wrong...
I'm more optimisitc about Obama, partly because I don't think he's such a slimeball as Blair (that's damning with faint praise if you like!), partly because I think he's a lot cleverer than Blair, and partly because I think the logic of the situation will force him into fairly radical policies - as this announcement suggests.
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385 ferme:
Am getting this sense of deja vu. You just did get posted, so try again.
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374 Asa & Nick:
Actually, I think it is crucially important, even if the immediate benefits are not as great as hoped. With increasing populations and finite resources, it is becoming imperative that we reuse and recycle as much as possible. Since our energy sources are finite we have to develop renewable sources. We have, and now we need to use them to provide the energy to do the former. This is the beginning of a new economy that will be global, and, ultimately may be as different from 20th century capitalism as 17th century capitalism was from feudalism. The next century will be fascinating. If I'm lucky I might get to see the next 50 years : )
PS: If we don't .... : (
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388 Nick:
Yes, I think he is cleverer. The 'radical policies' are required. I think he may be on the ball.
(see 390)
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David,
Where's your usually Excellent English gone?Self Evident,From whence comes such a right? Who grants it? People (and peoples) have a right to exist, but nations? Is it "earned by invasion and expulsion of tne indigenes? Personally, I don't think colonial adventures create or justify such claims (and Too, you can 'mouseover' the link and see the address)
80%, Didn't he do well?
Peace and good comedy
ed
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"From whence comes such a right? Who grants it? People (and peoples) have a right to exist, but nations?" - Ed Iglehart
The UN. With all its faults, it's the only current alternative we have to an international free-for-all.
I agree with you Israel should never have been created, but now it has, it can't be destroyed without wholly unacceptable consequences (any more than it's feasible for the territory of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Siberia to be returned to the descendants of those it was stolen from). I'd prefer all the current inhabitants of the territory divided by the UN in 1948 to get together in a single state or confederation, but I don't see it happening in the next few decades.
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selfevidenttruths@390,
I'll be very lucky to see the next 50 years - but I might just do it! The next 8 will be pretty crucial - and there is a hell of a lot resting on Obama's shoulders.
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This may interest some here.
Peace and commonsense
ed
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I wonder where if this 2.5 million jobs thing is going to be a bunch of FDR style projects.
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News from General Bullmoose
If you can't get the link to work, let me know and I'll archive the articlePeace and Wall Street Wit
ed
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397, Grey.
I think so. It is a sensible way to procede. Shore up the infrastructure while providing jobs. Everybody wins. I have always felt that Obama was a practical man, not the ideologue people thought they saw.
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It seems some things
are not open to discussion....and the grant of UN membership is and was subject to conformation with the rules of said organisation and compliance with its resolutions, but what the heck.
Peace and open discussion
ed
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Whoops! Wrongmoderated post!
Pity
ed
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Nick (394),
UN membership is granted subject to conformation with the rules and principles of the organisation and compliance with its resolutions.
Nuff said
ed
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#390 selfevidenttruths:
"Actually, I think it is crucially important, even if the immediate benefits are not as great as hoped. With increasing populations and finite resources,"
Of course resources wouldn't be finite if we possessed space technology anywhere above a tin can on a firework, where's NERVA when you need it?
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Ed (#401):
I'm not bothered by the Palin turkey pardon.
Why should the press get wound-up by a cameraman's momentary slip-up?
Did all the Vegans in the press go to Alaska to invent this Turkey-gate controversy?
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Sciurus Carolinensis,
I don't think the cameraman slipped up., but I'm not bothered, simply amused. I've done my share of plucking.
Oink!
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FDR reincarnated?
Goodnight America
ed
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"I'm not bothered by the Palin turkey pardon.
Why should the press get wound-up by a cameraman's momentary slip-up?"
Actually according to the cameraman and others the rather unfortunate choice of position to do the 'pardoning' was pointed out to Palin and she simply went ahead anyway, only when it all blew up did she claim she didn't notice the turkeys being slaughtered ten feet away and wasn't warned. The incident is both funny and an indication of just how boneheaded SP is. If Obama does nothing else in his presidency he will have saved the USA just by keeping that woman out of the Whitehouse.
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Learning to subtract
Peace and an end to worshiping Growth
ed
P.S. Try this?
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Pester Power?
;-)
ed
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#358. TrueToo: "What's a HIGNFY?"
Have I Got News for You , a BBC Television satirical series.
#379. watermanaquarius - Thanks for the good wishes; regarding "but what about Biden?" remember that it has not always followed that the VP remains the same for succeeding terms. FDR had three for his four, John Garner (1933–1941), Henry Wallace (1941–1945) and lastly
Harry Truman. There's no reason that Biden should automatically continue on the ticket; he'd be 70 by then and age could very well be a justification for the change.
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368. At 8:29pm on 22 Nov 2008, DougTexan:
I am no economics expert and I do not claim to be. In fact, mathematics in general seems to be my worst subject. Having said that, it seems to me if Obama creates infrastructure jobs for 50 year olds then those 50 year olds will in turn go shopping, spend money and buy coffee at Starbucks or where ever. This will lead to an increased need for workers in stores and it could be a domino effect of upward mobility. This is a WAY better idea than a 600 dollar stimulus package check. Bush tells us to go spend it, yah right. We have bills to pay and this is a one time payment. But here, we have given people jobs that will last at least a couple years if you are talking about construction. I don't see that 700 billion working yet, time for plan B. I do know this; you have to spend money to make money and you have to take risks. I know that for sure.
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To #399 Allmymarbles
I agree!
I think that Obama is both pragmatic as well as idealistic. Having both a head and a heart is something that is very important to me in any leader.
I also value that in any person who is part of my life.
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# 412 # 329
Bombast is useful to the opinionated and unsubtle.
I usually do not single out individuals for personal criticism.
The difference between ignorance and stupidity is that the stupid do not know that they do not know.
One loud-mouth here has made blatantly uninformed assertions about the situation in Iran.
By studying the history of events therein, one can see that one of our ladies knows about the events there
I.e., she knows what she is talking about.
The mentality that can only look at the CIA factbook and produce a number, or believe that a single number is more important than a percentage, etc. is not equipped to understand
but is well equipped to make bombastic opinions.
Those interested in Iran should read more about it.
This is especially so, since that country could become a key ally of the West.
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Two minor points concerning the thread and personalities:
The queen-bee mentality that seeks to control, and thereby pretend that a blog is her tea party, is a common social character.
Our Zionist crew function in their accustomed and ad-hominem way and one expects nothing better from them.
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Okay, I'm going to hit a few at once here.
Re #345 Asascot, you saved me a lot of typing by expressing exactly what I was thinking.
Re #363 selfevidenttruths, ditto.
Re #363 DougTexan, I think you might be surprised at how many people would be quite eager to line up for those jobs. For one thing, there's dignity in learning a skill and getting a good wage for it, and infrastructure jobs certainly do that. I currently work in the public works division of a local government agency, and on the rare occasions that we have these kinds of jobs open, we are inundated with applicants.
You also might be surprised at how badly a nationwide infrastructure program is needed. There are safety concerns with aging bridges, for instance. There is also the advantage one receives by spending a little money to maintain systems that would be hugely expensive to rebuild if allowed to fail. Of course, the "little money" I refer to would probably mean hundreds of billions. We'll have to see if we can even find that much in the sofa cushions.
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Re #411 ladycm,
That is my thinking on the subject, only the jobs would likely hold people over for far longer than a couple of years. Infrastructure projects require preliminary engineering, design work, environmental impact studies, and then construction. This will require engineers of many kinds, resource analysts, administrators, accountants, archaeologists, clerical support, technical support, and of course the people who will actually get out in the field and build the darn things. And as I am just listing these off the top of my head, I am surely leaving out some types of people whose skills will be utilized.
Yes, DougTexan, I think the Mervyn's clerk with his/her customer service experience would find a clerical or administrative support job satisfactory, just as the middle manager in his/her fifties might prove invaluable to administration or logistics or...I could go on and on.
As if people can't already tell, I'm very proud to work in public works. I don't make as much money as I could doing the same job in private industry, but there are other rewards and I'm lucky enough to be a part of a department that really does see its role as public service.
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357, Grey.
Further to you discussion of Osama bin Laden, his importance is overblown. What he represents is Middle East resentment for the West, primarily the United States.
So our government has sworn to slay the dragon. A waste of time except mediawise. There are plenty of dragons out there. If the causes for the terrorism are not dealt with (and that goes well beyond the Palestinian question) then no progress can be made and we will be in a no-win war to the end of our days.
More seriously, we are in danger of destabilizing the Middle East. Should that happen then the unstable political situations in nations of the area "friendly" to us can lead to coup d'tats and wholesale chaos.
I was hoping Obama would address the problem, but given the people he is surrounding himself with, I am losing faith.
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357, Gray.
When I spoke of the danger of destabilizing the Middle East I should have mentioned that an attack on Iran or Syria might well have that result. In any case, invading Iran would be idiotic, given the problems involved. Syria might be an easier target geographically, but even more dangerous politically.
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416. At 05:48am on 23 Nov 2008, mdalerwill wrote:
Re #411 ladycm,
"That is my thinking on the subject, only the jobs would likely hold people over for far longer than a couple of years."
I agree. Maybe in terms of building office buildings etc. But, as far as say a road project... depending on how large it is that would be maybe a good 7 years just in actual labor or more. We could use some more road here in Seattle. Or, more options for public transportation so we do not encourage spewing too much carbon into the atmosphere. There is nothing wrong with putting people to work. I am optimistic about Obama's plan. Aside from the monetary bennefits, when you put more people to work the crime rate goes down, people are happier and they have more self confidence. What's wrong with that?
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416. At 05:48am on 23 Nov 2008, mdalerwill:
I also forgot to mention, people flood the union halls around here for a union job with union wage. Most of our construction is all union, at least the big infrastruture projects are here in WA state. I don't think there will be enough work for everyone who will want it.
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Mr. Webb, go to fivethirtyeight.com to see genius election forecaster Nate Silver's interview with Ziegler. Then re-write this post.
It amazes me that the BBC hasn't caught on to fivethirtyeight yet and is still back in the dark ages with realclearpolitics for their stats. Get a grip!
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David_C # 410
{My "N o place for Bill okay, but what about Biden?"}
Thanks for your explanation about Biden as future vice president with the possibility of a limited tenure.
My attempt at asking about Biden was based on the " foreign experience" clash with Hillary.
With Bill C hopefully at home giving limited advice doing his thing, and Hillary abroad doing hers as S of S, the possibility of Joe making another criticism - The- "This is B.S. This is malarkey. This is outrageous" etc is not so far fetched.
Shortly to have 2 attack dogs overseeing international diplomacy, and soon the new puppy at home in the White House, those regular instructive "walkies" around the block might be a sensible thought by Obama. Sturdy leashes for all will prevent them fighting each other and him getting bitten himself!
Ed # 392.
"Where's your usually Excellent English gone?" ???
{David # 361. " The major plus...we..is"]
It made sense to me but then I think David was using the "we" meaning I- [His English upbringing means he still maintains his use of the Royal "we" when referring to being a part of the Clinton family of candidate support].The Queens' English as against the queens' English! When will you adopted Scots learn to love the monarchies?
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# 421 ~ the post at # 1 refers.
We had discussed (and laughed at) the Ziegler interview on the previous thread.
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# 422
As I have remarked before, I believe that Joe Biden's role will be to guide the Administration round the more obscure highways and byways of the House and Senate. His knowledge will be vital to a President who must drive forward a huge agenda if he is to pick America up off her knees.
The hugely experienced LBJ was picked for this role by JFK (as well as for his Texan votes).
Given the enormity of the problems they face, I think you can rest assured that there will be plenty of work for both Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton - and Joe Biden's comprehensive foreign relations experience comes as a bonus not a problem.
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# 422
"When will you adopted Scots ...... ?"
What HAVE you started ?
This is going to be worse than the regular Saturday obsession with the Middle East.
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I just want to say
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every time I write a Comment that is
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longer than 1 line it does not get Published
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& I get this message, "your comment contains some HTML that has been mistyped"!
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Then it adds, "Data at the root level is invalid on line 1".
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This has happened over 20 times & I have been unable to get past it!?
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Sorry, but this seems to be the only way to make a complaint as
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