An end to "victimhood"?
This is a subject rather lost in all the general fuss - justified fuss - about the racial significance of the Obama victory.
It is a sensitive subject, particularly for those of us who have never been victims of racism.
But I wonder now whether it will become a theme of the Obama presidency - in effect, it is the Bill Cosby take on modern race relations; the claim that, to an extent, the current plight of many black Americans is the fault of black culture.
And that culture must now change.
Comments
Sign in or register to comment.
For all the Obama disciples who have dominated Justin Webb's blog these past few weeks - this one's for you.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
a very interesting take Justin. i seemed to get a sense from the victory speech that its time for everyone to stand up and be a part of creating a new way, without regard to sex, race or age. I'm hoping this is the key theme through the next few years. I live in hope. Personal responsibility can change a great many things.
Complain about this comment
This is an incredibly complex subject. Am I able to comment, as a white guy with no experience of the real suffering and disadvantage that has undeniably taken place? Can someone who has experienced the full force of prejudice really help move things forward? Mandela's gift - and it is a rare one - was his ability to rise above the issue and not get caught up in it.
I felt that someone such as Jessie Jackson was too caught up in looking out for racism - he made an industry out of it - to be really effect at actually ending it.
I really hope that Obama is a succesful president. His success would go such a long way to not just healing, but really moving on.
Complain about this comment
This hasn't been lost at all; in fact, it was anticipated in the summer on black talk radio.
For example on the Travis Smiley Show (http://www.tavistalks.com/), Travis and his host (I forget his name) anticipated that, if Obama were elected, 'whites would use this as evidence that racial troubles are a thing of the past.'
In my opinion, Bill Cosby's message is overall a good one, because it is empowering rather than defeatist: but it's a message that must come from leadership within the black community, and not a white guy like me; and it must not be understood to say that there is no longer any racism in America, which clearly is not true, but rather that racism in America has been demonstrated to be supremely surmountable.
Also you can expect some debate as to whether Obama is 'really' black -- We'll get, No, he's bi-racial (which you're already hearing); No, his father was Kenyan and not black American; and, No, he was raised culturally white.
I do feel this is the underlying lesson to take away from this election:
--Not only with reference to Obama, who never played victim, but with reference to the prominent women of the race: Hillary and Palin. Republicans painted Palin as a victim in her first week of campainging, which damaged her image terribly, whereas Hillary generally kept her tough-as-nails game-face on.
It'll be a while before American culture settles on an answer to these questions. I sincerely hope that we can find a principled way to dispute unfairness while avoiding playing the victim card.
-FreeClench
http://freeclench.blogspot.com
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I would be VERY careful how you phrase it and look at it.
Throughout US history, "Black culture" has been used by racists to justify racism.
If someone decides not to hire me because there's some thugs gangsta rappin on TV, that's still racism.
Pointing at "black culture" as the root of black problems can oftentimes (not always) be just a justification for racism.
Blame individuals for their problems. But if you start saying that blacks are suffering because of gangsta rap, you're getting it all wrong. Rap is a response to continued racism inherent in American society today.
People on both sides need to calm down and come forward, but just saying that black culture is responsible for black problems today is exactly the same thing racists were saying in the 1920s and 1960s ("If the blacks weren't such savages we wouldn't keep them segregated!")
I think you might want to do some more reading on the subject before you try to write too deeply about this as you're already playing with fire.
Complain about this comment
The culture of "victimhood" will change only as everything else does, when those who have a vested interest in it die off and are replaced by others who do not.
Complain about this comment
What a brave and timely thing for you to write. For too long the sense of grievance has been the driving force in 'black' politics. And if you dared question this, the politically-correct lobby would label you a racist before they had even heard your argument. Hopefully the likes of Revered Al Sharpton will be given the short thrift that they should have received years ago.
Complain about this comment
#2 - Black Americans may have the same rights, but I taught in Watts and those little kids don't have the same opportunity as my students in the Bay Area do. They've never even seen a forest. The world they know is squalor, holes in the walls at school, and parents that beat their kids. That was the reality there. No one should say they can't, especially now. But no one should now assume nobody needs any help.
Complain about this comment
To my knowledge thousands of Black Americans are doing extremely well with a good number as judges, police chiefs, Mayors, law partners, consultant doctors, university professors etc (Ebony over the last four decades attests to that). Granted many have yet to shake off the shackles of a 'bond' heritage but the Black middle class has been in existence for a century and is still burgeoning. If this was not the case Obama would have found no place in the modern America, let alone Presidency. Things are always changing, it is only when it passes certain milestones that the complacent majority notices. If there was not a Jesse Jackson, Condi Rice, Colin Powell and countless number of men and women who achieved before - we would not have passed this historical land mark at all.
Complain about this comment
It would be nice to see people move on from the old historical stereotypes, but I dont think so.
For example I notice that rather than express the argument in detail yourself, you direct us to another source. Fear of even saying these things still runs deep.
Can Obama, who has so ruthlessly mobilised the racial vote, now refuse to deliver the payback?
Expectations of 'redistribution' are running high. Can he run the risk of alienating all these people who voted for the first time once they were offered a candidate with same coloured skin as themselves?
Presumably he has aspirations for a second term.
Complain about this comment
...and black culture is the result of the plight...which then causes more plight, is inbreeding the result of the plight of the aristocracy.....and greed the result of the plight of the bankers...
I like the 'write your own history' culture, the 'what doesn't kill you makes you stronger' and 'you are not a leaf in the wind' club
But the numbers still show prejudice and oppression against ethnic minorities, 'plights' continue that are the fault of white culture - hopefully this election will have a tremendous positive effect...after the shock wears off
Obama was elected because of the man he is...not skin color
Complain about this comment
The term 'post-racial period' is absolutely not true. Yes, since the institutionalize racism America has come a very long way, but is not near at the end of the racist period.
Finance of public school appears very racial. Agreed that most affected are the white folks who are poor, but by far blacks are poorer because blacks are only one generation far from institutionalized racism. The quality of public schools (which are funded by locally generated revenue) are highly dependent on the area. A poor area will have low funded school and blacks are the majority in the poor area. It is vicious cycle … being born in poor area assures that you will go to a poorly funded school and education is most likely compromised. Bad education translates to lesser opportunities to become rich. It is perplexing that such an obvious problem is ignored. Solution is straightforward but hard to convince rich people to accept it: increasing education funds and funding all schools uniformly.
Complain about this comment
I just had this discussion the other day with my translator. I'm a white american living in Rwanda and I grew up in the southern US. My city was roughly 1/3rd black with nearly the entirety of the rest being white. I think that black culture's current state has been funneled in such a way to produce reinforce unsustainable professional goals. I used to believe role models were just something adults said but didn't make a bit of difference; however, now I believe in them whole-heartedly. It is relatively recent in US history that black americans could do anything bu t the most menial of jobs. It wasn't really until the second half of the twentieth century that desegregation permitted blacks to go to good schools and be eligible for what I would consider a normal 9-5 job. That's in the past, we say, but that is a gross oversimplification.
Rome wasn't built in a day and it will take many more generations to undo the system that was systematically created over centuries to keep black people out of power. We've got two big issues in the US right now that I see as obstacles to giving black people the same opportunities as the rest. The first is how we distribute money for schools..especially in the South, based on neighborhoods & "home schools." This system ensures that the students of rich neighborhoods have far more money spent on them and that children of poor neighborhoods, mostly blacks and latinos, have considerably less money. This, of course, means that black and latino students do not have the same opportunities because their schools have less resources per student.
Black culture has for a long time been pre-occupied with entertainment. I believe this began but it was all they were allowed to do as slaves and then as a subjugated race. Today this manifests in an abundance of black role models that are in professions which are unattainable for almost every black child, namely in the sports and music industries. Until these role models are adamant about creating more black professors and less black basketball stars, this will continue to be a problem. Unfortunately, many of these stars don't value education as much as they should.
And yes, I voted for Obama!
Complain about this comment
I'm currently on a business trip in the US, and got mugged on Saturday by three men. When I reported it to the police and the black policewoman was taking details, she asked not "what colour were they?" but "were they black?" That struck me as a little odd, even though they were indeed black. Does this say something about the way blacks think about themselves, or is it just a reflection of the facts?
Complain about this comment
I don't think now it is neccesrily race, I can only speak from the viewpoint of the UK.
There are many individuals who feel victimised in all parts of society. If one has had a brush with the law as I did on a motoring offence in my younger years, you can get caught up in a whole scenario, in which justice does not matter and 'system' takes over. You just pray that the system is a good one and its administrators are honest. It took me a while to get over it.
There are many that feel victimised, too many wallow in it and don't dig themselves out. I fear a lot of black and white youths in our inner cities, particularly, whose parents have limited aspirations both for themselves and their offspring and gravitate towards the lowest common denominator.
For people with low education and intellect the course is like a self fulfiling prophecy.
If the parents don't have standards and principles, nor will their kids.
Ok sometimes you can have a 'black sheep', but generally there is a reason, mostly nurture not nature.
Hopfully Obama will encourage all to strive, including those who feel they were born on the 'wrong side of the track'. We can only hope!
Complain about this comment
No its not going to be a theme of the Obama presidency, policy wise, that black culture is a partial factor in black outcomes.
Here is why, this is the real view of Obama's part of the political spectrum, neatly summed up by father Pflegger of Trinity Chicago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWigzBClEk8
The hints of Black Liberation theology's concept of "Reparations" are in there, with a bonus anti-Hillery rant at the end for good measure.
Cross B.L.T. with the "Praire fire" Manifesto of William Ayres and you have the inner core of Obama's political ID. How much of it will come through into conscious policy remains unprovable.
I read the Bio of Obama's chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, at first I relaxed and saw a strong "Mid-western" theme emerging, then I looked at the end where it said Rep. of Chicago North side and my heart sank.
If Rahm was working for anyone else, or was president himself you could sleep safely at night.
Obama controls so many people through his Chicago red machine, and he must know every flaw of someone so close geographically. Infomation is power, so expecting Rahm to be truely independent of his master is a dream.
If I am wrong about Obama, he will keep Defense secretary Gates on for two years to close down the Iraq situation in an orderly manner.
Unfortunately I expect Gates to be history quite quickly.
Complain about this comment
With his intellectual drive and clarity, his racial background and his experience as a community organiser I would doubt whether anyone in the world is more conscious of this issue than the President-elect.
As your post confirms, he acknowledges that privileged children such as his own daughters will have no need of affirmative action. And the 'guns and religion' remark (made at a closed door meeting) was in fact made in sympathy to the white communities who, having fallen behind in their standards of living, clung to their traditions as a means of staking out their identity.
Jlarkin # 2 is quite right to point out that America is the land of opportunity, as Barack and Michelle Obama know only too well. Yet at the same time it is a society, in which a whole community was based on slavery but a few generations ago, and on racial segregation well within living memory.
Just as his election victory in itself already signals the "change" of his manifesto, so must his racial background give confidence to people who previously felt outside the mainstream.
We will get a better measure of his intentions as he makes his key appointments. He has already confounded those people who so enjoyed the line that he was "palling around with terrorists" by appointing as his Chief of Staff someone who is from the heart of the Jewish community.
Complain about this comment
7. mrWr0ng:
That's not the sense in which the word 'culture' is used here, though. It's not about gangsta rap, spirituals, or novels.
I'm disabled, and we talk (or rather some activists do) similarly about the 'disempowerment' of a 'victim culture'.
But that's as far as I'm going with this.
I have a feeling the moderators are going to be very busy.
Complain about this comment
I do think that the election of Barack Obama will make a big dent in the 'victimhood' department.
Two things which struck me during this election was that: white racism against blacks was a bit stronger than I had imagined before the campaign; and that more blacks than I had expected had a chip on their shoulders against whites and that supposedly Obama couldn't seem angry and even that he had to choose not just a white VP, but a blond VP if he hoped to get elected. Very depressing. Then there were the polls suggesting that the majority of whites believed that racism no longer exists in America while around 40% of blacks no only believe racism still exists, but that there will always be racism toward blacks. Even more depressing.
More whites need to realize that racism is NOT gone, and that if Americans are to be tribal, for white Americans, many in their community still pick on members of other 'races', in particular blacks.
In turn, more blacks need to realize that all of the legal obstacles to their realization of the American Dream have been gone for decades, and that while there are still social obstacles, these have been eroded greatly.
It is true that the typical black American, especially a black man, may have to work a bit harder to be 'successful' than the typical white man; the same could be said for women having to work a bit harder than men of their own 'race'. We are all dealt different cards when we are born, not just in 'race'. Some of what we are given puts us at a disadvantage compared to others; some gives us an advantage.
But even if there are some obstacles in your way, it is extremely American to believe that you can overcome those obstacles. Black people can be every bit as successful as white people, and now with a black President-elect, all Americans have the evidence to prove it.
Complain about this comment
(In my opinion) 'This' hasn't been "lost in all the general fuss;" for many, including myself, 'this' is what the fuss is all about: blacks have been given hope that there really is no glass ceiling for them; racists have a perpetual thorn in their side as the most powerful position on Earth (to go all hyper-American, sorry) has been charged to a black man (though I already see any success on Obama's part being credited to 'that's from his white side' by the racists).
Complain about this comment
It's a case made much more completely and eloquently by John McWhorter, an abbreviated version of which has been sometimes bandied about by multi-millionaire pop culture muppet, Cosby. In any event, doing away with the misuse of the "culture of victimhood" doesn't do away with actual victimhood. So we can expext that all the usual opportunistic protaganists of victimhood culture will be coming out of the woodwork now to try and cash in on the Obama Copacabana bandwagon, And all the usual real victims will continue to be victims. With the Democrat zioniist foreign policy clique of Anthony Lake, Dennis Ross, Martin Indyk, et.al. taking over from the Republican zionist clique of Wolfowitz, Perle, Abrams, et.al., we can expect that Israel and its American servants in both wings of the Duopoly Party will continue to use the "victimhood"/"anti-semitic" wolf cry to cover up the crimes of the Jewish State and continue to make many new real victims among long-suffering Palestinians. There won't be any "hope" and "change" for Palestinian victims with Rahm Emmanuel and his zionist cohorts pulling Obama's strings.
Complain about this comment
I wonder, how about looking at it like this, America is full of immigrants, each new wave has to fight to become successful, that is the American dream but most afro americans have been there for 100s of years and have lost that spark/zing that would make them 'successful' otherwise. Maybe Obama will give them the fillip they need?
Complain about this comment
What a shockingly simplistic post from a BBC journalist who would have been front and centre as the most complex historical question in America was asked again and again for the past two years. You write as if everyone in America turned a blind eye to race and voted for Obama unanimously. What on earth do you mean by Black Culture? How does it distinguish itself from White Culture, assuming there is such a thing?
Please, from one journalist to another, do some honest reporting and stay away from the splenetic bleeting that this blogging exercise has become. For God's sake, pull yourself up by your own journalistic boot-straps! This nonsense is not what the licence-payers expect, or need.
Complain about this comment
Lost to you, but I think the left has been well aware of it and how it might (will) be abused. I'm sure I read somewhere (Ezra Klein? not sure) that while Obama's election signifies an advance in race relations, it won't cause one.
Complain about this comment
While it is true that our society and laws provide protections that guarantee equal treatment for all, they have failed to address the feeling of disenfranchisement that members of our minority groups. Right or wrong, African-Americans, Hispanics, and Native Americans have felt discriminated against, excluded from mainstream America and from many of the freedoms and opportunities that are, clearly, available to all.
Obama's election may just be a panacea that may not solve all the social inequalities and feelings of exclusion that dominate the psyche of minorities, but the symbolism of his election and its effects are inescapable.
I anticipate Obama's policies to be focused on the welfare of all Americans, but his election gives minorities a sense of empowerment and belonging that was not there before he became President-elect. His ascendance to power gives minorities a sense of pride and a feeling of inclusion that may produce, among other things, a sense of responsibility that could have huge implications not only for themselves but for our society as a whole. If nothing else, it will allow all Americans to see each other as equals, may make general claims of discrimination look preposterous, should improve our ability to interact with each other, and may influence our ability to be more tolerant and understanding of other cultures.
The ramifications of Obama's election regarding its impact on our society should not be underestimated and are bound to make us a much stronger and tolerant nation.
Complain about this comment
As a white, female, southern, Obama supporting American, I feel the need to respond to the following comment...
"Black Americans have exactly the same opportunities as white Americans, if they choose not to make the most of them it's their problem. USA is the land of extreme capitalism, the survival of the fittest. If you sit back waiting for a welfare cheque you aren't going anywhere. You have to work hard to achieve your ambitions. You get nothing for nothing. Everything is possible if you go for it wholeheartedly."
The commenter is correct in saying that you have to work hard to achieve, and everything is possible for either black or white people in America. That is true. However, as a parent and a person who has volunteered and taught in the public school system I'd like to add another perspective on this. The things that get in the way of the success of many (not all) black Americans is not entirely "black culture" or waiting for the welfare check as the culture of poverty. In this area and others, unfortunately, poverty and race are closely tied. Many (but not all) minority children grow up in a climate of extreme poverty or one in which single parents struggle to make ends meet. Those kids have few of the advantages of middle class kids of any race.
These advantages or disadvantages aren't specific to the race of the child but the economic condition of the family. I've seen kids from all races and ethnic groups who were unsuccessful and others who were tremendously successful. The ones who don't make it are often terribly economically disadvantaged from birth and enter the school system behind their peers. Often they never catch up, and end up giving up and dropping out.
It's important to note that there is a significant minority middle and upper class in this country, just as there are whites who live in poverty. Economics are at least as important if not more important in determining who will succeed. Poor kids can succeed as well as anyone else but it takes a lot more effort to overcome the early disadvantages that go hand in hand with generations of poverty. This is as much a part of the struggle for success in the minority community as culture.
I can't speak about "black culture" since I have not lived it, but I have seen first hand the effects of generational poverty, the lack of education and the impact of that kind of life on ambition.
Complain about this comment
So the great washing of the hands has begun already! As you can see from the first comments to your ill-advised and rather ignorant post Justin, you can leave it to the remaining racists to wheel out this old chestnut: it's all the fault of blacks themselves and now that there is a black president there's just no excuse at all for their "failures" which must therefore be due to innate character/cultural failings...
The point here is not that the election of a black President is not a momentous event but that it is important because it represents a new beginning to the debate about race in this country, not its abrupt termination. All things are possible now, but what is no longer tenable is the denial of reality that lies behind the contention that black people have just as much opportunity as whites in this country. It's a bit like arguing that because Obama comes from a relatively humble background, all problems of poverty and social class are at an end...just plain silly.
Obama is President. That's great. But vast numbers of African Americans (and an even greater number of whites) still remain locked in poverty and isolated from the main currents of opportunity and mobility in our society. Now is a chance for Americans to do something more about this fact than pat ourselves on the back for our racial "tolerance," and hand the ball over to African Americans themselves with a "lets see what you can do with it then." This is a sorry dodge, but an old one.
You need to read a little more deeply in American history Justin, like many of your Oxbridge educated English colleagues (and I know because I am one and know many of them). Your unseemly haste to shift the burden of responsibility for racial inequality onto the back of black Americans, I hope reflects only your own historical and political naivete and a certain incomprehension about American society...but it worries me that enlightened, well educated, middle class Englishmen like you are so receptive to the bastard rhetoric of faux American racial liberalism.
Bill Cosby's views by the way are a tactic not a world view, designed to rescue the black community from economic and moral cataclysm. For all his black middle-class assumptions, he's well aware that the world inhabited by poor blacks is not a world of their own making. He simply wishes to ensure their personal survival. One can support this without signing on to the completely opportunistic way that whites in this country routinely exploit black dissension and lecture the black community about the need for "self-help."
Not a great way to greet our new black president Justin, chewing over the stale cliches of the racial past and providing a platform for the worst and most self-serving impulses of the old (white) America.
Complain about this comment
6, Magic.
The reason Obama never played the victim card was because he wasn't victimized, at least not in his early life. He was essentially brought up as a white and, living in Hawaii, where everyone seemed to be a different color, racial differences were not as pronounced.
I should think that until he went to school on the mainland he never realized how strong the division between races was. But by then his character was set. Given his choice of schools, Columbia and Harvard, and their intellectual bent, even then he was somewhat insulated from the worst of racism, at least in the school environment.
His work in Chicago brought him to grips with the race problem and, by marrying a black American, he developed an intimate understanding.
Complain about this comment
No more victimhood - Not possible, how will Jesse Jackson, Malcolm X, Quannel X and all the other black hate mongers make any money? How will they pay for their multi-million dollar lifestyles without victims to donate to their hate? If they had spent all that energy in improving the lives of black people thru a positive message instead of a negative message they wouldn't need victimhood. They have to keep up the pretense of victimhood or they are out of a job.
Complain about this comment
#1.duhbuh: "For all the Obama disciples who have dominated Justin Webb's blog these past few weeks - this one's for you."
What a pitiful piece that is. Not even the good grace to acknowledge that Mr Obama won handily, but using offensive language to denigrate his supporters: "pathetically empty lives" indeed! Time to move on, duhbuh, and to accept defeat like a man!
Complain about this comment
There have been polls from time to time over the last few years asking if race is an issue to people.
The answer broke down to most whites saying no and most blacks saying yes.
We just had this swell election and found out that whites voted for the person they found most qualified, and that race wasn't an issue.
Now at least black Americans have proof positive that we were telling the truth.
(Oh sure, there are some die-hard bigots around, but they probably have trouble finding their own posteriors, so they hardly matter.)
Complain about this comment
Justin,
As you've pointed out, you have never been a victim of racism and therefore I imagine it must be extremely difficult for you to admit there are victims of racism. Perhaps it's easier for you to simply accuse the victims of playing the victim card, while ignoring the 'glass ceiling' that most minorities face in their entire lives.
Surely you know about the difficulty people of colour have in getting their children into good schools in the UK and the racism some children face before they even understand the word itself. The end result of this is a race locked in a vicious cycle.
The real question is where do you attack it to stop it? Surely it's not by attacking the victims as you're suggesting. Given them opportunities first, and they will see the other side of life.
Complain about this comment
"USA is the land of extreme capitalism, the survival of the fittest."
I thought it was either a christian country or a country of anti-darwinist creationistst. How wrong I was.
Complain about this comment
Obama isn't a black man. I'm not a white man. We're just men. If we want to make something of our differences, then add the 'black' or 'white' bit at the beginning. If we want to celebrate out togetherness it's about time we stopped pointing out the differences. Maybe this is a good time to drop anything that leads to division and self-segregation.
Complain about this comment
It is true that it's not about black people, it has not really been for many years, it is about poor people.
The sooner that people accept that children raised in poorer neighbourhoods have less opportunity. It is ALL about education.
I am lucky: privileged, white, male, educated with supportive parents.
I feel no guilt for my upbringing but having chosen to work as a teacher in some of the roughest schools in the UK, I know that opportunity is not the same for each child.
I have no doubt I would have drowned in such a school environment as the ones where I have worked for nothing else, but being dyslexic. I did not really begin to achieve in education until I was 11. Without the love and support of my family where would I be now?
At work I had students who stayed back with me after school because they did not feel safe doing homework at home where anti-intellectualism, or if you prefer anti-educationalism, ran high.
If part of a governments remit is to protect and even help the weakest in society then form of acceptance that we are not all given the same start in life should also enter it. It should not be based on colour, race, religion, etc. but on opportunity. Organisations should be encoraged to take this into account.
Complain about this comment
I think this topic is very important and interesting. The keyword is discrimination whether it is call racism or whatever. It is simply wrong critiria used to wrongfully judge or deny any person his or her right to have access to what they deserve. This happens everywhere in the world. It does not matter whether it is call racism, tribalism, corruption etc. People discriminated need help to understand that they don't have to allow such action to have negative impact on there attitude towards life and their future but believe in themselvs and hardwork which will help them realise their goals. Never give up.
Complain about this comment
Slavery casts a long shadow... It is the legacy of slavery that means that Black America lack the African cultural institutions where they can discuss such sensitive matters in private, and why they often lack the self belief of other ethnic groups.
As a descendant of slaves myself, I know how it feels to share the faith, the name and the language of your former European slave master, yet we still feel African.
Blame helps no one. We all, black and white alike, need to move beyond blame. Ghandi showed the way forward, and leaders like Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela and now Obama are following his great example.
Black America needs the time and the privacy to build its self belief and rejoice in its Africaness. Rap no more defines black/African culture then Punk defines white/European culture and black people have no reason to feel uncomfortable in their own skins.
What the Obama victory means for blacks is pride. As a black person I know how it feels to harbor fears that perhaps your race isn't as capable as others.
"Yes we can" - Is more then a political slogan for the descendants of slaves. Now more than ever before we have living proof!
Complain about this comment
On the "opportunity" line of thought, a lot of people have come to the states from different parts of the globe with little money and sometimes no English (yes we do speak a sort of English, or we speak it at least as well as the Irish, Scots, Australians and people from the North of England), but they had spirit and determination galore. Some of these emigrants even came from concentrations camps with the murder of family members fresh in their minds. Or more recently from killing fields and civil wars....
The point is: They learned the language, found ways to earn a living, their kids went to schools then to universities. They became productive, even prosperous, American citizens.
Opportunity is what you make of it.
(Heck, we even took in Craig Ferguson and gave him his own TV show. Some of us can even understand him - most of the time.)
Complain about this comment
It now looks like Obama has won the state of North Carolina, but with a very small margin.
A week ago, the New York Times published an article about the
confusing NC Ballot.
I feel NC is victim of this ballot. The current margin before all the provisionals are counted is 13,000 (give or take). The under ballots in NC are around 48,000 (give or take). This means, 48,000 people voted, but their vote for President is NOT being considered. Some will be spoiled ballots, but many will be "under ballots" where citizens selected ....
STRAIGHT PARTY
and did not also check the box for Obama, McCain or Barr (the three choices in NC). In NC, Straight Party voting does NOT apply to Presidential.
Altough I do not think it likely, it is possible that the McCain has lost enough "under votes" to deny him victory in NC.
As things have worked out with results in other states it does not matter that much, BUT IT COULD HAVE.
I would be angry if things were the other way around, i.e. had Obama lost by an equal margin.
Some in NC might say this is rough justice and we should reflect on FL in 2000 and OH in 2004. The US needs to find a way to fix voting issues.
Darrell
Durham, North Carolina
Complain about this comment
Perhaps, Justin, you'd like to explain what you mean by 'black culture'? I've always understood it to be far from homogenous and that's from personal experience. The question says it all!
Just what specifically, is it about supposed 'black culture' alone that you think might be exclusively responsible for disadvantage of black individuals, where that exists?
Are we now supposed to believe that black Americans, unlike others, live in an hermetically sealed cultural bubble, that their 'opportunities' aren't inextricably linked to the complex interplay of objective, historical social and economic conditions that is society as a whole?
Does the advantage and advance of any individual cancel out the material, social disadvantage of others be they black or white?
When we uncritically castigate an imagined, homogenous culture for the lot of a community's ills, we absolve society of any role and responsibility for the prospects of all its citizens.
Really Justin, just how did you become a BBC journalist with responsibility for informative comment?
Complain about this comment
32 jlarkin: Black Americans have exactly the same opportunities as white Americans...
Except that white Americans usually don't need lawyers to make sure they have access to all those opportunities.
It's not 1960 anymore. (I know, I was there.) But, millions of white Americans still hold racist views. The-Powers-That-Be have leveled the playing field, but some of the players are still cheating.
Complain about this comment
There are some reports that Sarah Palin did not know that Africa was a continent and believed it was a country and that South Africa was part of Africa - reports aides of McCain.
She would often throw tantrums and would cause staff to be reduced to tears and was a nightmare to deal with.
She had refused to be briefed for the interview with Courie and blamed CBS for that.
Complain about this comment
Obama isn't a black man. I'm not a white man. We're just 'men'.
If we want to emphasise differences, then add the 'black' or 'white' bit at the beginning. If we want to move forward emphasising unison then maybe it's about time we stopped pointing out the differences? Just step back and read some of the posts written here. They sound like 17th century witch-hunts or radical puritanism. Wake up. Obama got elected by 'people'. He would NOT have been elected by whites only or by blacks only. It's way past time to drop the self-segregating prefixes.
I'm white. I'm in my 40s. Like around 40% of men in this country (UK), the men in my family didn't get the vote until 1918 (just 42 years before my birth). Women 1928. My grandfather started work in a coal mine at 12 years old. Like countless thousands of others in the UK he was an economic slave. He was lucky enough to survive (despite serious injuries and pneumonacosis) and retired at 69 because he couldn't afford to retire at 65. In the pit next to his, 343 men (and boys) were killed in ONE day. Other members of my family lost their lives in the mines. Women only stopped working in the mines in the 1930s. It wasn't for fun - it was quite simply economic slavery. BUT life was tough for ALL. If you want to understand just how much working class communities like that WEREN'T racist, read about Dr Victor St Clair Lucas at http://www.boltonrevisited.org.uk and why this wonderful 'man' was made the first Freeman of the borough. It really is time to move forwards.
Complain about this comment
Obama is black as much as he is white, its all in the individual perspective. HE HAD A WHITE MOTHER!!!
If Mccain was black and following in Bush's footsteps, that would have made for some very interesting debates. I wonder if he would have came out whiter?.
If Obama becames a great president, will he be regarded as a great black president?,
If he is a terrible president, will he just be a terrible president?
Complain about this comment
Jackson tears were fakes. Remember the line he mumbled about Obama's nuts, caught by a live micro? The black community needs to rid itself of all such "professionals" (Jackson, Sharpton et al) and follow the example of Obama.
About cabinet appointments what's your opinion about all the "pundits" who never said a word about the most partisan administration of all times (G W Bush) and now demand that Obama be "bipartisan"?
Complain about this comment
And what, Justin, is black culture "which must now change", (by means of compulsory assimilation), I might add? Such nonsense! The assertion that the plight of many black Americans is the fault of "black culture" is in itself malicious racial stereotyping, if by black culture you refer to gang culture, violent (rap) lyrics, anti-intellectualism, and habitual dependence on welfare package... The last time i checked, there are millions of non-blacks in Britain and America that can be rightly put in any of those categories, yet it would be wrong to describe it in terms of racial culture. A more pertinent problem is reactionary journalism, in which, in spite of gains and progress made by humans, some individuals want to keep dragging humans back by negative stereotyping and promotion of racial divisions...
Complain about this comment
If Black Americans continue to live in poverty then their culture isn't going to change. If you want them to change their culture that much then get rid of the poverty.
Complain about this comment
most african americans do strive for what is best for them and do seek economic prosperity. the mianstream media focus too much on the types like jesse Jackson who makes race an industry, most african americans know racism exists but move on and live their lives regardless, this is evident in current society.
On the other hand someone who grows up in a housing project somewhere in extreme poverty in the united states or a trailer park has less opportunity than most americans. thats the case if you are black, white , latino asian or martian.
If you grow up in a poverty stricken part of town, then you get access to the worst schools(since properrty taxes fund schools) , worst hospitals and the worst of everything else.
It is true America's history of segregration and prejudiced laws and attitudes had set the foundation for many of today's social problems but today its a lot more complicated , and no particular race has a monopoly on poverty in america.
Complain about this comment
ps. justin, what exactly is black culture? i find african americans are all quite different based on what part of the country they are from and how they are raised. Dont you think its a bit unfair to pigeon hole all arican americans as being one culture.
their are some african americans who's ancestry goes back some 400 years in the americas, but their is some like Obama who's parents were probably not americans and perhaps who's ancestry wasnt slavery.
come on Justin be a little more critical in your thinking. Im sure not all brits are the same.
Complain about this comment
ref #30
Yes Marbles, but several African Americans still play the victim card even though they have relativly easy lives:
Maxine Waters
Jessie Jackson
Charlie Rangel
Diane Wilkerson
And his own wife Michelle
Complain about this comment
#19 "He has already confounded those people who so enjoyed the line that he was "palling around with terrorists" by appointing as his Chief of Staff someone who is from the heart of the Jewish community. "
As a Brit, I don't begin to understand the full significance of that comment. But the fact that you mention the race and/or religion of the appointee (I say and/or, because I have no idea how the person in question chooses to live their life) makes me think the subject is far from dead in the water.
Perhaps more significant, looking at the Financial Times newspaper's breakdown of the vote, is the only category of voters in their tables where Obama did not have a majority over McCain: white males.
That demographic is the natural recruiting ground in the UK for far-right minority parties like the BNP. I wonder if the US two-party system will begin to fragment from now on, similar to the UK and European situation where the far right share of the vote in different countries varies from a few percent, and a patch geographical distribution of support, up to about 30%.
Or maybe that had already happened, with some talk radio presenters as the founding fathers of the (as yet nameless) party?
Complain about this comment
"More whites need to realize that racism is NOT gone, and that if Americans are to be tribal, for white Americans, many in their community still pick on members of other 'races', in particular blacks. "
It is clear based on these comments that victimhood and self-pity are still very powerful factors.
The American left has based its identity around victimhood, and it not only based on race. It can't be allowed to med, because the whole far-left house of cards would collapse.
Complain about this comment
Ref 33
"The answer broke down to most whites saying no and most blacks saying yes."
While it is true that most African Americans said yes to an Obama presidency, and most "whites" said no the fact that African Americans only constitute 12% of the population of the USA make your analysis flawed.
The overwhelming support from the African American was, clearly, a critical factor, but the 67% of the "Hispanic" vote (a group that constitutes 18% of our population), and 43% of the white vote combined made his election possible. In effect, he was elected by a plurality of our population, not because he is black, but because most of us consider him the best qualified for the job.
Complain about this comment
I cannot for the life of me understand what Justin Webb is referring to as black culture. There is no such thing! Can he explain what White culture is?!? I doubt it...
We are human beings that display a wide array of behavioural traits based on our individual backgrounds and social standing.
Very disappointing journalism from Justin once again....
Complain about this comment
Fear and growing pains; what a country!
Jeff Fla.
Complain about this comment
# 5. At 6:32pm on 06 Nov 2008, freeclench wrote:
"Republicans painted Palin as a victim in her first week of campainging, which damaged her image terribly, whereas Hillary generally kept her tough-as-nails game-face on."
I think you've got it completely the wrong way round. Palin, victim or not, was very popular among the backwoods voters she aimed at. Clinton's tough-as-nails personality was exactly what made her unpopular with the dear old-fashioned American public, who still think a woman should basically be a homebody, not an ambitious career woman.
Palin's image was cunningly crafted to make he seem a regular mom and also acceptably tough. This worked, but not with enough of the more sophisticated public. Thank goodness.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
post 14 and post 15 one thing i would suggest to parents of children in these very poor communities with equally poor schools, is to find some way to register their children into a school in another area.
This may require lying about your home address, since your address determines what schools you can go to, and taking your child to school yourself instead of depending on the school bus, but it is sure a lot better way to go than to send your child to a school which is nothing more than a holding cell for young people during business hours. Today a lot of people use this loophole, it takes a lot of determination.
today's education system instills a system of poverty and uneven opportunity. Parents should have the right to choose their children's school, but hey thats the public system for you (government control means you have no choice but to take what you get).
Complain about this comment
I think politicians that rise through the ranks have to be manipulative prepared to say anything and selfish...
I think anyone with the right qualities no matter who they are will win and thats always been the case.. Sure, Racism will rear its ugly head but then if you are manipulative enough that will be an issue for all of ten seconds..
As for racism thats not just a white condition although in this country it is made into just that.. Racism is prevalent throughout the world and has always been.. Racism is about fear and about a sense of tribalism that has always caused separation. Racism among people of the same colour is prevalent and is why countries form and borders built.. Cultures develop within races and further separate people. This creates diversity and different ways of doing things.
Perhaps a closer look at the human condition and a deeper understanding is needed.. Some cultures demand separation.. What some seek to do is turn all mankind into a single classless mass that lack identity and direction..
Complain about this comment
I think we forget that Obama is not African American. In fact I went to a historically black university (HBCU) and I can tell you that Obama would not qualify for grants and scholarships meant for African Americans. And he went to the best schools in the country and went to high school outside the US. He had a family to support him, His life experience is totally different from African Americans that we associate with victimhood. because he is now the President is not a reason for the victimhood to end. Of course skin color may influence kids who are growing up and see him and then think they can do everything they set their mind to. but adult African Americans should be allowed to feel victimized if they want to... a lot of times many are really trapped in circles of poverty.
Complain about this comment
Racism in America still exists and it's still possible to be a victim of it, but blacks don't have to be victimised by it.
Even in this landmark election a significant amount of people across the country blatantly admitted they couldn't vote a black man into the white house. Also in the run up to this election many black people's integrity and intelligence was questioned because they supported or endorsed Obama. As if all black people were incapable of making informed decisions.
If racism in America was truly extinct then there'd be none of this continual and widespread talk of the so-called Bradley Effect. Obama's skin colour would be as irrelevant as a candidates eye colour.
The election of Obama won't suddenly and magically end the social, socio-economic, and psycho-cultural effects of a couple hundred years of slavery, segregation and denial of civil rights and equality. Remember it's only 40 something years ago, our parents or grandparents generation, that legal racial discrimination became illegal. What do you think the socio-economic effects would be if your parents (and therefore yourself by extension) were denied equal educational and economic opportunity?
Having said all that, there are MANY black people of all political persuasions that are NOT looking for handouts, reparations or apologies, maybe just some understanding brought about by honest and historical perspective, but nothing else.
There have been MANY blacks since the days of slavery, since the days of Jim Crow that have NEVER looked for any help from white America. They've never expected the institutionally racist American power structures, the same structures and systems that have systematically kept them down for years, they've never expected this same system to turn around and suddenly help them. As a result there's many blacks that have not played the victim or looked for sympathy and instead have just got on with it.
It's been a mistake for black leaders to try and make white Americans feel guilty. How could they have expected empathy and justice from a society that needed legislation brought about just for them to do the right thing? What did black leaders expect from a society that had to be repeatedly told that slavery, segregation and discrimination were morally wrong? What did they expect from a nation where one of it's founding fathers (Jefferson) declares "all men are created equal" while keeping many slaves?
In this day and age, and for a very long time now, there's been enough knowledge to empower black people and help them get on with it and stop being self destructive, wherever they are, in America, or post colonial Africa and South America.
Blacks have had the choice to be free from victimhood LONG before Obama was even born.
Complain about this comment
Very well said Justin.
Complain about this comment
Off topic, but did people hear what Ralph Nader said?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibsP6XN2dIo
I've never thought much of Nader, but compare his comment with McCain gracious congratulations.
Let's seeif Nader is ostracized as her should be.
Complain about this comment
From 4th November 2008 onwards every non-white US child should no longer have the adage 'no non-white can ever achieve President' line ingrained into them. That mold is broken for ever. That alone is huge. Of course racism will not disappear. If anything every mistake Obama is perceived to make will be blamed by some on his racial ancestry. Both white and black communities will be able to use this argument which will make for some interesting debates I'm sure.
When all the dust settles maybe people will realize that Obama is neither one nor the other. As John McCain tried to understand where Obama stood this is the point he and his strategists forgot. Obama has a foot in both camps and appears to have come to terms with that. He may appear elusive but in reality he is one and both at the same time and this gives him a huge advantage he never has to play overtly.
Complain about this comment
#12 "Can Obama, who has so ruthlessly mobilised the racial vote, now refuse to deliver the payback?"
Over the last few elections, around 90% of African-American votes have been cast for the Democrat candidate anyway. It's a far more striking demographic trend than the oft-quoted 65% evangelical Christian vote for the Republican party in 2004. And I don't think Obama really played the race card in his campaign. There's no real evidence of Obama showing favour during his time as the first ever black president of the Harvard Law Review.
#7 "If someone decides not to hire me because there's some thugs gangsta rappin on TV, that's still racism"
Of course it is. But that's not the point and I'm pretty sure you know it. But the world don't owe nobody a livin' neither. #10 has a point on rights vs. opportunity - the question is: "Is there something in black culture that, more than 30 years after the start of affirmative action, is [still] causing black males to score 200 points below the national average SAT?". Is it just the general level of deprivation? Why is is that DC schools, with more spending per pupil than neighbouring Fairfax, Montgomery and Howard counties, is at the bottom of the league when the others mentioned are at the top? Given that money isn't the solution, what is?
Complain about this comment
As post 48 said, when you write about "black culture" Justin you seem to imply it's homogenous. What do you mean by black culture? I don't often hear people suggesting there's such a thing as white culture.
To put it another way, I love footie and my old man likes classical music - which one of us represents white culture?
Complain about this comment
As a few have said already, the problems historically associated with race may largely heal with a remedy that provides more equal opportunity to the poor/middle class. That would offset the concentration of wealth, but more importantly, *opportunity* within the wealthiest few % that occurred under Bush and trickle down predecessors.
Education is an extenal key to opportunity, and attitude is an internal key. I enjoyed the PBS interview with the 106-year old daughter of a slave. Her 73-year old daughter spoke in turn of her 10-year old grandson: "he could be president! Of course he will have to *apply* himself" I think that more Americans of all walks of life are ready to "apply themselves" to tasks at hand, including our youth seeing more reason to stick with their education. I hope Obama has a fireside chat or two aimed at our young people.
However, there is still overt and subtle racism in the US (as their is elsewhere, I was surprised when I heard an exchange student from central Europe nearly spit the word "Jew" and express fear of black students). I think that lingering poison will require another generation or two of diligent enforcement of civil rights laws before it is dispelled, enough time for the last children who were carefully taught by Jim Crow era parents to fade away...
Complain about this comment
Ref #1 duhbuh
You DO know that The Onion is a spoof news article organization, right? ie, they write jokes loosely based on real news.
Complain about this comment
I was going to comment that all the insightful responses so far have mentioned the problem of education and what in the UK we call "sink schools".
But then I saw Magic's post at #52 which has reduced me to FURY. He lists Michelle Obama, yes Michelle Obama, as playing the victim card.
What on earth is the man talking about.
Under all the stresses and strains of the campaign, this extraordinary woman has remained calm and has been an inspiration to women of every colour under the sun. And men, and families.
I saw an interview with Michelle Obama the other day when she was asked about some provative remark or other that had been made. She replied, quite simply "I don't do anger".
Would that we could say about Magic that he doesn't "do" ignorance.
Complain about this comment
52, Magic.
"Yes Marbles, but several African Americans still play the victim card even though they have relativly easy lives:"
But since Obama doesn't, doesn't that attest to his honesty, at least in this aspect of his political life?
Complain about this comment
True that it is a very complicated issue.
Allow me to generalize.
On one hand, older black people are just a couple generations away from slavery and the post-slavery south. These same people grew up before and during the civil rights movement, and did suffer lack of opportunity.
Their children were raised by people who couldn't take advantage of all the opportunity in this country. I'm in my late 20's, and my parents were "baby boomers," so I guess the children I'm referring to are black people of my generation.
Coming from a household and "culture" with remnants of past injustice is not going to put you on a level playing field. East Saint Louis, 10 minutes from where I live, is an example of this. From my understanding of history, many blacks moved to this area from the south. They were uneducated and grew up in fairly miserable conditions in the south. Now (and since the 1960's), that community has been poverty stricken and rampant with crime.
A child growing up in East Saint Louis in no way has the same opportunities that a child growing up 10 minutes down the road does.
However, it is true that despite these setbacks, someone with enough determination and perseverance can overcome these obstacles today. But those qualities are uncommon.
Maybe, as blacks in America travel farther from the past and the conditions in which the black community's problems are rooted, time will sort things out. Little by little, opportunity works its way into cities and families. But that's a 50 year process at best.
I digress- is violent rap music to blame, or is it a reaction to repression?
I can't believe that someone would honestly say that glorifying gang violence, drug dealing, and crime is a legitimate reaction to anything. It's cool to listen to whether you're involved in illegal activities or just contemplating them. But 90% of "gangsta rap" is in no way a reaction or a political statement. Some artists, yes. But most? No way.
Glorifying antisocial behavior certainly won't help raise the black youth to a higher level. How many 12 year old kids will stop and think, "this isn't just about killing people, this is about how society put my people into this mess?"
It is my hope that we are moving past times where someone like Jessie Jackson has to be in the business of ferreting out racism. Then we can move past the past 200 years and work together as one society.
Complain about this comment
#62. braveHibou: "I think we forget that Obama is not African American."
How do you figure that? His father was from Kenya, which is in Africa, and his mother was from Kansas, which just happens to be in America. Put the two together and whadya get? African-American.
Complain about this comment
'Victimhood' is practiced outside of the so called 'black culture'. What exactly is the 'black culture'? There are other 'races' (self defined) who also believe themselves to be victims of 'racism' who are 'white', the 'Irish' , the 'Jews' etc. Obama is 'mixed' it just so happens dark skinned. If he was of 'whiter' shade as is possible would he have had such a broad appeal and have been called 'black'? If Darnell from BB eg.had run and won would he have been perceived as a 'black' African American? or an Albino African American? Does 'race' really exist? We are all of the same human race are we not? To imply that to an extent the current 'plight' of the so called black culture is 'their fault' must be tantamount to saying the current 'plight' of the so called 'white' banking culture and previous U.S government for instance is 'their fault'.
Complain about this comment
#46 mr_jason_os:
Obama is black as much as he is white, its all in the individual perspective. HE HAD A WHITE MOTHER!!!
The only people who think it is important to say things like that... are people who think it is important to say things like that.
Complain about this comment
I think racism extends both ways, whites blaming blacks for their problems, and more commonly, blacks blaming whites for every single one of their problems.
So slavery ended a hundreds plus years ago and segregation another 40 years - What has the average African-American done to break free from their stereotypical roles?
Complain about this comment
What activist african americans are just waking up to in the cold light of day is that the white guilt vote was intended to put the whole matter behind whites, while the activists thought they were just getting started in their efforts to mandate reparations.
Complain about this comment
Most Afro Americans' ancestors were slaves, the bottom rung of society.
Every few years in the UK some think tank or researcher releases yet another research paper explaining how social mobility in this country is somewhat limited - meaning that if you are born poor, you are likely to stay that way.
If you could mark all the offspring of the poor families in such a way that they and their own children would be highly visible in the future, I suspect it would be noticed that they mostly, but not uniquely, remained in low paid unskilled jobs, with a handful in each generation making it to the professions to become middle class.
Black people in the US are exactly that. people from poor beginnings who are highly visible in society. It takes many generations for the offspring of the poor to mix thoroughly throughout society. Partly because of prejudice on the part of others, and partly because of low expectations inspired by the experience of their upbringing - it's the same for poor white people too, though they aren't so noticeable.
Many generations down the line, the marked descendents will be visible throughout society at all levels, and so the problem will be solved? Except it won't be solved. Because by then, there will be a new strata of poor and underprivileged at the bottom of society, and if you could mark them and their descendents,...
The problem is not one of race, though it suits some on both sides of the debate to couch it in those terms. It is one of privilege and expectation and that will not be solved until all children are given the same opportunity. That isn't going to happen, because whatever they might say, and whatever they might tell themselves, deep down, the well off would prefer to pass on the benefits of their wealth and power to their own children rather than to those of the road sweeper they pass in the street.
There'll still be bus drivers, delivery boys, waitresses, postmen, labourers, road sweepers and so on, whether they be black or white. A black man in the White House does not mean that the poor, of any colour, have suddenly become enfranchised, and no matter how hard they work or study, there will always be a mass of people at the bottom of the pile - there is only room for so many lawyers and accountants. Barak Obama's win is not the beginning of a brave new world. It's a dream and you're due for a rude awakening.
Complain about this comment
As a mixed-race American originally from the deep south, I strongly believe that if Martin Luther King were alive today he would be disgusted with what many of his followers like Jessie Jackson have become.
MLK would be against legalized abortion (MLK was a Baptist Minister.)
And he most certainly would be saying exactly what Bill Cosby has said in the past about the welfare plantation / "I'm a victim" "Where's my 40 acres and a mule?" , "Babby-Daddy" mentality that exists largely in the black communities here.
America has a black president. Time for Affirmative Action to die.
Complain about this comment
Someone claimed that Obama is not a true african american. Classification really has become over-PC when a son of an african and an american does not qualify.
Complain about this comment
78. At 11:19pm on 06 Nov 2008, bayleyco wrote:
What activist african americans are just waking up to in the cold light of day is that the white guilt vote was intended to put the whole matter behind whites, while the activists thought they were just getting started in their efforts to mandate reparations."
You don't think that Black activists might possibly be concerned with justice as much as guilt?
Complain about this comment
I also have done some teaching in inner city high school. The root of the problem is not lack of opportunity, but culture.
Any black kid that asked questions, that tried to do the lessons and learn was ostracized. That is a fact.
Bill Cosby is right, but the 'black leaders' don't want to hear it.
It is so refreshing to have someone like Obama. He is the first black that i have ever considered voting for. The others like Al Sharpton or Jessie Jackson are one-trick ponies. Everything from healthcare to global warming gets somehow turned into 'racism'.
Racism surely exists, but it has been perpetuated for decades by a bankrupt culture of excuses and lack of responsibility.
Complain about this comment
52. At 9:47pm on 06 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #30
Yes Marbles, but several African Americans still play the victim card even though they have relativly easy lives:
Maxine Waters
Jessie Jackson
Charlie Rangel
Diane Wilkerson
And his own wife Michelle"
Coming from someone who defends every Israeli atrocity on the grounds that Israel "is a victim" (even when shooting at schoolchildren), this is beyond irony.
Obviously black victimhood is the issue here, white victimhood is fine.
Complain about this comment
"83. At 11:38pm on 06 Nov 2008, anton99 wrote:
I also have done some teaching in inner city high school. The root of the problem is not lack of opportunity, but culture.
Any black kid that asked questions, that tried to do the lessons and learn was ostracized. That is a fact.
Bill Cosby is right, but the 'black leaders' don't want to hear it.
It is so refreshing to have someone like Obama. He is the first black that i have ever considered voting for. The others like Al Sharpton or Jessie Jackson are one-trick ponies. Everything from healthcare to global warming gets somehow turned into 'racism'.
Racism surely exists, but it has been perpetuated for decades by a bankrupt culture of excuses and lack of responsibility."
Thanks for that. I and most of the world thought rascism was perpetuated by rascists, not by its victims.
If black people stopped complaining about rascism, do you think rascists will admit they are wrong?
Going by that analysis, there was no rascism in the US before the civil rights era.
Complain about this comment
The best thing Obama can do for the racial issues is to ignore them. (i.e. to pay them no more attention than any other president would have... I'm obviously not saying he should totally ignore race-related issues)
I'm quite confident he'll prove to be a fantastic president, and the beacon he lights by doing as such may be enough to break down the last few, hole-filled, rusty barriers between races in Western Europe. There's no need for there to be any more focus on it than that.
It's fantastic that after the horrific, inexplicable and downright stupid persecution of black people globally through history, there's now an African-American in the whitehouse of the USA, and he's there entirely on merit.
My subtext, you may have guessed, is that I really would like to see Obama allowed to get on with his job by the media without a constant spotlight for the next 4/8 years on his race. It won't be needed - just by doing a good job he'll be making a point to all of those morons who were interviewed saying they weren't going to vote for "that black man," that stupid woman with her "he's an arab" comment, and anyone else who thinks the colour of Barack Obama's skin is more important than the sparkle of his mind.
Complain about this comment
#83. how long until you stop this malicious, obnoxious stereotyping? Refusal to learn may be a problem of some gang subculture, but how on earth is it (inherently) 'black' culture, except you relish such stereotyping. I have also done some teaching (maths and science) in inner city: majority of my students are white, others black. Yet i've had as many white as blacks unwilling to learn, simply because they think it's not cool. Conversely, i've had curious and diligent students in the same class, both black and white. What more do you have to say?
Complain about this comment
Racism is not gone in America, unfortunately. Certainly, there are not as many "racist" people as say in the 50's depending on where you live I suppose. On the other hand, I have to say that McCain/Palin movement seemed to sort of revive the "white power" movement when they so radically tried to connect with their "base". I am not suggesting that McCain/ Palin are racists; that is not what I am saying at all...I know they are not racist. Also, I am not suggesting all of their base are racists. What I am saying is, there are a few folks in their base who are racist and they would have rallied with whoever the white candidate was. However, I think their campaign of fear mongering brought out the closet racists (or not so closet) in some Americans. Regardless of whether McCain/Palin used fear mongering tactics, it does not excuse people being racist based on their irrational fears and utter stupidity. Racism is not gone, and we have to make sure we point it out and fight it every step of the way. It is intollerable. If you decide to watch this video I link, I gotta warn you it's really disgusting example of racism today in America that people need to see.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b5QeYV2d6s
Complain about this comment
ref #84
Simple simon, I have not brought up Israel in several blogs.
Why do you.
I noticed you are defending some very hateful people and yes I include Michelle Obama on that list.
Complain about this comment
ref #71
How about Michelle's comments
Our souls ned to be fixed
This is the first time she is proud to be american
She also called her husbands detracors hateful.
Why does Michelle get a pass because she is Obama's wife?
Complain about this comment
#32 - What a pitiful piece that is. Not even the good grace to acknowledge that Mr Obama won handily, but using offensive language to denigrate his supporters:
The link was from the Onion - the entire article (in fact, the entire website) is satire. The article in question was not so much slamming Obama supporters as it was slamming the ridiculousness of the accusations that have and had been leveled against them.
Complain about this comment
#14. At 7:57pm on 06 Nov 2008, fasahath:
Excellent points, couldn't have said it better myself. A lot of internal blame goes around in America for the plight individuals are in. No one is willing to accept that external causes play a huge role in keeping people in poverty or whatever cycle their in that is keeping them from succeeding. Our class stratification is a joke. I will make roughly .70 cents to every dollar a man makes; even though women make up 50% of the population. Yet, we are still considered a minority. I know life isn't fair, but we should not ignore blatant discrimination. This is what makes Barack Obama's victory even more amazing. The cards have been stacked against him his whole life, and he still made it. But, this shouldn't be the way "it is".
Complain about this comment
The only story I can tell is my own. I am a white woman with blond hair to boot. That being said, life can be pretty easy when I want it to be. Knowing this, I always try to remain humble to the hardships of other people who i know have a harder time because the color of thier skin. I could never begin to know how painful and dissapointing that might be. The history is so dark and extensive you cant just say now get over it, but i do think the responsibility has to come from both sides. There hopefully is a better sense of what you can achieveas a black person now, and also that the predudices of the white community won't be tolerated in society any longer.
Whenever I leave the country, thats when you realize what being American is, and alot of that is the wonderful black culture, jazz, the blues, and best of all R&B. We are together as a whole whether we consciencly know it or not. I live in a community w/ many poor black people, and sometimes all you can do is be as kind as you can, even if thats just merely looking at somone in the face and saying hello.
Complain about this comment
85. At 11:48pm on 06 Nov 2008, Simon21 wrote:"The others like Al Sharpton or Jessie Jackson are one-trick ponies".
I think you are correct here. Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton in my view seem to hurt and belittle the cause of stamping out racism in America. They cry wolf at everything, then when the wolf really arrives (in this case racism) no one believes it ;or people think that the person is overreacting. They often seem to mock the cause in my view. These two create a media circus where ever they go and just end up looking like narcissists. Ultimately mocking a very important issue.
Complain about this comment
While this is a new step that signals some of the progress that the United States has made, it is also important to remember that Barack Obama is not the descendant of slaves like most United States blacks are. Despite even his personal encounters with racism, he does not carry the cultural and psychological memes and coping mechanisms, etched into the psyche of many blacks, that were forged during the eras of slavery and segregation/Jim Crow.
Complain about this comment
I live in an area where there really aren't a lot of black people, so I don't pretend to understand the situation very much. But I'm convinced that we're about to see the black community rise and more fully participate in our society, in ways we'll be very proud of.
Rome wasn't built in a day, and the cultural effects of slavery didn't go away overnight. Even after slavery was abolished, blacks had no real rights in the south for decades afterward. So it's easy to understand why black culture tends to disregard or mistrust their "opportunities" because they never really had any until just the last 30 years or so.
We're just beginning to make real the rhetoric of the Civil Rights movement, and I think we'll see some amazing things.
Complain about this comment
#62 - His life experience is totally different from African Americans that we associate with victimhood. because he is now the President is not a reason for the victimhood to end. Of course skin color may influence kids who are growing up and see him and then think they can do everything they set their mind to. but adult African Americans should be allowed to feel victimized if they want to
As a white woman I was just about to ask how any but someone in the black community could possibly be sufficiently familiar with black culture to answer Justin's question.
However, your post has given me a starting point (though I acknowledge I still do not know very much about the subject). According to your definition, President-elect Obama can never be accepted into "black culture?" (Is this what is meant?) From the context, his exclusion appears to derive from his economic situation growing up. Is this also true? If so, if you are saying that the only blacks who cried "victimization" were also poor, and that the fact that a well-off black was elected president doesn't mean that they (the poor) can be president? And that they are also extremely unlikely to better their situation in any way?
In fact, there are many poor people of other races (white, hispanic, native american) in the same situation. I live right now in a county with a big methamphetamine problem: Poor whites living in run-down trailers are keeping shacks in the woods to make meth for their own use and to sell. Their meth habit is ensuring they remain in poverty, although if asked, they would probably say it's because their last boss hated them (when in fact they have no job because they maybe didn't show up for work) or because they "just can't get a break." This, too, is victimization. However, I wouldn't suggest that this individual hold fast to his denial (victimization). What he really needs, for his children's sake, is (for lack of a better term) re-education.
Complain about this comment
#58, Belmons wrote:
I think you've got it completely the wrong way round. Palin, victim or not, was very popular among the backwoods voters she aimed at. Clinton's tough-as-nails personality was exactly what made her unpopular with the dear old-fashioned American public, who still think a woman should basically be a homebody, not an ambitious career woman.
Palin's image was cunningly crafted to make he seem a regular mom and also acceptably tough. This worked, but not with enough of the more sophisticated public. Thank goodness.
I agree with that.
I think that Palin's appeal to her devout followers primarily came from belonging to the same religious network, the part of W.'s base that rejected McCain due to his crafting of the McCain-Feingold legislation. McCain-Feingold limits monetary donations to campaigns and therefore limits the degree to which millionaires and churches can buy politicians.
Secondarily, her victim image probably appealed to their feelings of being persecuted by mainstream America and so they rallied to her side. Which is your point. And I agree: for that purpose, a tough image like Hillary's wouldn't do.
My contention, though, is that however many fundamentalist voters she picked up, she lost many more moderate voters through her victim image. Her nonverbals in the VP debate, for example, do not inspire confidence in her -- her shoulders are hunched; she has a nodding, nearly bowing way about her: this is the body language of a daughter trying to make friends with daddy: not a world leader.
Now, if she had cleaned up her body language and were verbally more together, she might have been able to make it work -- or, if she were verbally more together and didn't walk in to the VP debate with the victim image.
But people were primed, as a consequence of her own campaign strategy, to think of her as a victim; and when she spoke, they saw a victim. And that was it.
So I think turning Palin into a victim was a losing move. One of several, but a big one. Her core fundamentalist constituency would have voted for her without it, and it hurt her with the moderates.
(Fox news is now reporting that the big shift toward Obama began the day after the VP debate, a few days before the financial crisis.)
-Freeclench
http://freeclench.blogspot.com
Complain about this comment
Justin writes-
"An end to "victimhood"?
"But I wonder now whether it will become a theme of the Obama presidency....."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Black white red, yellow brown. Each and every man and woman on this planet can have a lapse of judgement.
All with their share of ***isms at times, but that does not mean that all of them develop into being permanent ***ists. I hope!
Nothing is black and white but all shades of gray!
Here, both sides appear as being the Victims and the aggressors.
Complain about this comment
That did'nt really come out like i wanted. We have a long way to go on both sides to ease racism, but every little bit in a positive direction cant be bad. Judge people individually by what they do, and don't generalize. Patience and understanding. Don't forget to critique your own behavior once in awhile.
Complain about this comment
#83 - I also have done some teaching in inner city high school. The root of the problem is not lack of opportunity, but culture.
Any black kid that asked questions, that tried to do the lessons and learn was ostracized. That is a fact.
I find this interesting from the standard of comparison with my son (a white male, now age 21):
According to him, there is an entire male sub-culture in public (tax-paid) schools in the U.S. In primary school, he could not appear to know the answers to questions because he would have been ostracized by his friends for being an egghead. He was also required to engage in physical fights for dominance (he was glad when we moved from Texas to Missouri, because he didn't have to fight as much, he said). In high school, when he decided he didn't want to be on a varsity team, he couldn't simply quit - he had to get kicked off the team instead, because otherwise, he'd have been called a quitter. These are (to me) bizarre social rules that are against the best interests of the people involved.
I suspect that what is involved from the quote above is not something that is restricted by racial culture, but something more pervasive. Question: was the same behavior observed for the girls in the classroom?
Complain about this comment
Well I have a better question for you Justin: Is this the end of victimisation?
Did the appointment of Thatcher as PM make gender inequality a myth? It didn’t even eradicate it! Or are women who complain about unequal pay and glass ceilings suffering from "victimhood" too?
I can only imagine (and hope!) that you saw it fit to pose such a question because you aren't prejudiced and assume everyone is like you.
They are not! I am a black British woman who had to work against all odds to rise above my humble beginnings.
Here is a quick example (out of many).... When I applied to study at Imperial College my school principal advised me not to "squander my chances" and aim lower. I ignored him, got accepted and I graduated top of my class with a first four years later. I achieved this holding down a morning job as a cleaner and a night job stacking shelves at Tesco.
We are still victims and racial prejudice still exists. Those of us who have "succeeded" have done so my mastering the denial of it (working twice as hard your colleagues helps too).
I agree that some black people overdo it but this struggle requires significant emotional stamina and does wear some of us out! So you'll have to forgive the occasional wound-licking by the moderates.
It’s like you said.... you have never suffered racism so I’ll let you off on ignorance.
Complain about this comment
First I'd like to say - I never thought this would happen in my or any other lifetime. Congratulations to Obama.
I think his greatest legacy to many, but especially to black people around the world, will be one of courage.
Racism exists, and frankly, will always exist as long peoples of two or more differing complexions roam the earth.
But as of 4th Nov 2008 the rules have changed for blacks in America, and for minority populations elsewhere.
To paraphase possibly the greatest US President of the 20th Century, with the election of Obama, African Americans realise now that in the land of opportunity that they have felt for so long has excluded them based on race, as of this moment "the only thing they should fear is fear itself"
Complain about this comment
David Cunard
The Onion publishes jokes and their entire stories are made up. I read the paper version when I am in the crapper.
Complain about this comment
I can understand the disregard or misunderstanding of the significance of Obama's victory.
To truly understand this you need to go back to the declaration of independence:
'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.'
On November 4th this finally became true, after the man who wrote this went home to 200 slaves, after the civil war, after the abolition of jim crow laws and the '68 civil rights movement. Finally all of this has proven a point, until you understand the history and not just the victim status created for some minorities, you cannot understand the impact of this monumentous occasion.
Complain about this comment
Plenty good stuff above, and some awful drivel. It's less important that Obama is "black" than that he's the right man for the job, dammit!.
God Speed his path
ed
Complain about this comment
This is what he said, this is what Abraham Lincoln said;
"As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master. This expresses my idea of democracy. Whatever differs from this, to the extent of the difference, is no democracy."
These famous words are cited in Aaron Copland's musical composition Lincoln Portrait.
America continues to strive to reach its ideals. As it perfects its democracy, it leaves the rest of the world further and further behind in the dust. They may resent it but they don't seem inclined to do anything about it.
Complain about this comment
Dead on. That is the hope of the hardworking.
As a colored immigrant living the American Dream, I am certain a pervasive sense of grieviance and leaders stirring up victimhood has left folks behind when born here.
I would go so far as to say that Obama would not be the president were he not African American. The media and his party treated him like a prince, thinking there was never going to be another person like him....which in a sense may be part of the cyclical racism.
Complain about this comment
Dominick,
Well said! That's what I would've said if I hadn't got so mad at some of the inanity above.Peace and Hope
ed
Complain about this comment
In my opinion, Sarah Palin was cynically manipulated by Rick Davis and his team for the purpose of rallying a disenchanted GOP base. When it became obvious that her gender, religious convictions, and middle class background were not enough to persuade the Independents and the so-called "Hillary Democrats" to vote for McCain, his campaign turned against her with a vengeance and made her a scapegoat for their own shortcomings.
McCain did not lose because Sarah Palin, he lost because of his support to the discredited Bush Administration, because he had nothing positive to offer, and because he ran a lousy campaign. If anything, Gov. Palin may have mitigated a more embarrassing debacle.
Complain about this comment
I highly recommend everyone watch the documentary called "Hard Times at Douglass High" about an inner city Baltimore high school.
http://www.hbo.com/docs/docuseries/hardtimes/index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/23/arts/television/23high.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
Complain about this comment
It's true that many Americans, black and white, have been longing to move past the kind of racial animosity that has one group blaming institutionalized racism for everything and the other accusing the first of "playing the race card" and "playing the victim." In fact I think most Americans are already past this simplistic exchange, which is why I'm stunned to see so many of your readers apparently eager to revive it.
For a more sensitive, thoughtful, thorough discussion of race in America, I recommend the dialogues on www.bloggingheads.tv between John McWhorter (kind of the intellectuals' Bill Cosby) and Glenn Loury (more a traditional lefty). There's so much that to be said on this complex and vexed issue, and I hope Mr. Webb will approach it with more subtlety and precision in the future.
Complain about this comment
Obama played the race card right from the start and anyone who said they didn't like Obama was accused of being a racist.
Look what happened to Bill Clinton.. the Obama camp accused him of being a racist and that's what ended it for Hillary. All her black supporters jumped ship...
and here we are today.
It's the Political Correctness president in a time of reality television.
Now we have a man with no experience and no history of political achievement campaigned for and voted by the young and the ignorant.
And this year's American Idol is.....
Complain about this comment
#112 - In fact I think most Americans are already past this simplistic exchange, which is why I'm stunned to see so many of your readers apparently eager to revive it.
Sadly, this election seems to have brought virtually all of racist america out of the closet. What I hope will happen as a result of this, though, is that now that it is all out in the open it can be exorcised, sort of like lancing a wound.
Complain about this comment
#110
It was the choice of Palin for VP that caused this Independent to look more closely at McCain.
It was her personal attacks on Obama that made me take a closer look at him.
It was Palin's attempts (successful, unfortunately) to whip up under-educated and emotional crowds that left me cringing away from the Right.
I voted for Obama.
If she's back in future elections I'll vote for any opponent who doesn't eat live puppies. Regionally, she may do very well, but as long as the GOP trots her out, they're guaranteeing themselves a loss in national elections.
Complain about this comment
Justin must be shaking head in amazement, or having a hearty chuckle.
A few interesting responses have been overwhelmed by those that don't address the subject, numbers going on about
'racism' and at least a couple going on about Sarah Palin.
The fact is that Bill Cosby, not Justin Webb, attributed "the current plight of many black Americans" as being "the fault of black culture." I think we can safely assume he was talking about black American culture, not the culture of recent black arrivals.
I admire Cosby for having the guts to tackle this sensitive subject, not least that of young black men impregnating numbers of girls or young black women and then abandoning them to both fend for themselves and collect welfare cheques, forever trapped in a cycle of poverty.
I haven't a clue why this topic is so difficult to address unless the nauseating political correctness that now plagues North America and Britain like the bubonic plague, plays are role in inhibiting honest thought and expression.
However, seeing that 'racism' seemed to become the primary distraction, I'd like to point out that racism is an affliction that affects not only the white race. I've experienced black racism in Boston, Massachusetts and Orlando, Florida, and wasn't much impressed by the attitude of some blacks encountered in Chicago.
So while white racism no doubt is a bigger problem than that among American blacks, there is no point in pretending that black racism does not exist. Listen to some of the words of Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Louis Farrakham, or Jeremiah Wright, and you get a taste of it. Jackson has 'milked' racism to feather his own nest.
Then the record of Asians also leaves a lot to be desired.
Today in now black-ruled South Africa the pendulum has swung. Now black racists rule the roost, denying to even Coloured people (i.e. people of mixed race) access to programmes open to black because the Coloureds are not black enough.
Racism is a problem that people of all races need to confront, appreciating that all of us have only this small piece of turf to occupy.
Complain about this comment
#104. Byungmoon: "The Onion publishes jokes and their entire stories are made up."
Apparently 'duhbuh' didn't know that and took it for what it was, as did I. Thanks for the explanation.
Complain about this comment
ref #110
I disagree the main reason was the economic meltdown.
Remember before that McCain and Obama were even in the polls.
The thing that is frustrating is that people like Frank, Dood and other did not recieve their share of the blame
Complain about this comment
#2 "Black Americans have exactly the same opportunities as white Americans, if they choose not to make the most of them it's their problem. USA is the land of extreme capitalism, the survival of the fittest. If you sit back waiting for a welfare cheque you aren't going anywhere.... "
There are so many opportunities that my white children will not be able to take advantage of because of the color of their. My daughter won't be eligible for many scholarships. My son might not get a certain government position (many have a 'minority' minimum). I still don't understand why its acceptable for a minority to use racial and derogatory terms to talk about white Americans. Some would even say its funny. However, the reverse would be bigotry.
I wish we could move past it. I'm sorry to say I feel that Black Americans do NOT have exactly the same opportunities as white Americans. There are many times when they have more. Which would be okay if it were not based solely on race. There are a lot of very poor white families, too.
Reverse discrimination is something we don't talk about and its saddens me that my children have to pay for mistakes that were made hundreds of years ago.
I hope this president can bring the change he promises. I pray for it. I would love to see people of all races living in harmony.
Complain about this comment
Silly me! I read the title of Mr. Webb's blog entry and thought he was going to talk about how Obama has finally gotten us to break free of that debilitating victim mentality we Americans have been nurturing ever since 9/11/2001 ... how he might actually abolish the Bush doctrine of pre-emptive strikes, torture, and illegal detention.
Guess not.
Complain about this comment
Obviously, Mr. Webb is not a US citizen and needs to do some more research on the racial history of this country. As an American, "Justin Webb's America" is usually one that I do not recognize.
Complain about this comment
It is a new era entitled "No excuses".
As someone once said, "To the victor goes the responsibility."
Black History is great, Black baggage has its time to be left behind.
Barack Obama is the best thing that has happened to America in a long time.
Complain about this comment
Oh, and I voted for Mr. Obama. First time I have voted for a democrat for president.
He is THE right man for the job.
Complain about this comment
#15 lookdamnit wrote:
The first is how we distribute money for schools..especially in the South, based on neighborhoods & "home schools." This system ensures that the students of rich neighborhoods have far more money spent on them and that children of poor neighborhoods, mostly blacks and latinos, have considerably less money. This, of course, means that black and latino students do not have the same opportunities because their schools have less resources per student.
=========================
Thank you bringing this up. I find it completely shocking.
Is this for real? How widespread is this school funding model?
In Ontario, Canada where I live the municipal gov'ts source funds from property taxes, and the provincial gov't then allocates school funding from the total revenue pool on a per student basis. Each kid gets an equal share of the available resources (OK, there are special pools for disability programmes, etc., which cost more).
The system you describe is fundamentally unjust. Where the h*ll is equality of opportunity in that?
Yours,
A pink Canadian Pinko
Complain about this comment
The black culture is rich in tradition, and, until this date, the African American people, as a whole, were given the poorest schools, scant amount of resources. low flood lands for their homes, and, in general, were treated as third class citizens. With Obama's well earned victory, light will be shed on these practices so there is justice for all neglected minority peoples. When a group of people can only have "second or third best", there is a lot of catching up to do. That is what Title I and Headstart school programs address in their curriculum. The only true way I would be able to realize the deprivation experienced by an African American would be to be black, myself. I have witnessed the separate drinking fountains and segregated. poor movie seating in the 30's and 40's . the race riots of the 60's, and . the real estate redlining of the 70's and 80's . and 90's.
Americans voted for change and it is my fervent prayer that the last vestiges of ignorance and intolerance are gone forever.
We are a nation of every color, nationality and lifestyle. Our greatness comes from our acceptance and respect of each others differences.
Complain about this comment
#119 kel_ang
Can you back up your assertions about government positions being "reserved" for blacks with some facts?
I had extensive firsthand experience w. the American civil service, and have yet to see any indication of racial preference. If anything, the Federal and state governments bend over backward to level the playing field, and make sure race isn't a factor in hiring.
In the civil service, people can lose their jobs and face prosecution if they hire someone just because they're black, or white. And they're a great leveler, because the same standard applies state- or nationwide, so people of diverse backgrounds often end up being assigned deep in the heart of "white" middle America. This diversifies the workforce, giving many their first chance to work with people of different races, and enriches the communities where they live.
This is not the same as equal opportunity- the Federal government has a program to specifically recruit Hispanics, which are woefully underrepresented for their population size. And perhaps a program to recruit blacks. But there are many more opportunities for outstanding scholars, or student interns...
Complain about this comment
yes. I can... school teachers. In many cities there is a minimum percentage that must be minorities. My grandfather was a superintendent. If you have fewer minorities your school gets less funding. That's discrimination, my friend.
Complain about this comment
You question was answered by Will Smith today on Oprah, I suggest you look at it.
Will Smith was talking about the moment it was announced Will Smith said "...and they announced it and instantly all of our excused ended." It is a paraphrase as I deleted the recording, but it is accurate.
Complain about this comment
also... i never used the word "reserved".
Complain about this comment
#124 chronophobe
The U.S. has a long tradition of local control over school budgets and curriculum. The latter has faded somewhat in the last few decades as the states and federal government started mandating some minimum requirements- but even still , this is one reason why No Child Left Behind encountered such fierce resistance.
Local school districts do have the advantage of being on the scene, and thus better able to adapt and respond to unique conditions. but funding becomes a critical issue that local boards can't always address. Disparities between wealthy suburban vs. relatively poor inner city and rural districts can be huge.
It gets even more difficult in states like Ohio, where there is a referendum law, which as I understand it requires voter approval for each school district tax increase. And you can guess how convincing those arguments to raise taxes usually are.
So, in a word, chaos. Until the basic funding issue is addressed, then it will be difficult if not impossible to give minorities an equal educational footing. For what it's worth, I like the sound of your system...
Complain about this comment
#127 kel_ang
Semantics, perhaps, but I do not consider teachers to be in government positions. State and the Federal Depts. of Education do not control local school boards, which are also independent of the local political structure.
And again, semantics, but a "minimum" implies that a certain number of positions are "reserved" for minorities.
As for the wisdom of minimums/quotas/affirmative action (that is what is being discussed, isn't it?), these aren't reparation payments, for some distant sins of the past. These are attempts to alleviate the stacked deck many (not all*) minority job candidates face.
If we eliminate affirmative action, how long would black or Latino candidates continue to be able to compete? How long til minority teachers slide below their groups' percentage of the total population? Yes, it's wrong, and I feel for your son, but the alternative is worse. If minorities start the race several yards behind whites, they'll never be able to catch up.
*I will qualify this by saying that, perhaps, economically privileged minority applicants might not need nearly as much assistance as underprivileged ones...
Complain about this comment
Mr. Obama has an opportunity to effect a change for the better. He is an intelligent, well educated man and an excellent speaker. The question is whether it is useful for him to do it. Whether he has the cajones to be a man and stand up as an example or whether he wil stay in his comfort zone, remain in Black Liberation mode, and enshrine victimhood in the persons of Supreme Court nominees.
Don't count on anything he says in speaches, he is a talented liar. In his acceptance speach he said "it is time for each party to own their errors". Then he spent the rest of the campaign blaming the Repubicans. Mr. Obama uses words only to persuade and inspire, not to demonstrate intergrity or honesty.
My family is Mohegan Indian. Although it has been a long time since we experienced direct prejudice, the momory lives in the family ethos. We have always been taught to tahe responcibility for ourselves and to treat all men equally, no preferance nor prejudice.
Complain about this comment
Please do not post. I will try again when I have more time to formulate a better arguement.
Complain about this comment
Now that blacks can choose dignity over victimization, what do you think they will choose?
Complain about this comment
90, Magic.
"How about Michelle's comments....Why does Michelle get a pass because she is Obama's wife?"
She doesn't get a pass because she is Obama's wife, but because she is black. You are not black so you do not understand.
Complain about this comment
We've come a long way since 1964 but change continues. As we saw the map of the US voters it's shown we're moving foward. Still time is needed to continue. President Obama is a President for all Americans not just African Americans. It is strange as President Obama really does represent what America really is white and those of color. For me it feels like the way I felt when the Civil Rights Bill was signed, you know it happen but hard to believe. So many things have changed and kids look at the 1960's as so long ago which is good. God did bless America at last by not allowing McCain/Palin to continue the Bush policy and racism. Let's see what the future holds for the US now. Some will hold on to the pass but more will move forward and be part of the recovery and success of the USA. I like the idea of the Middle East, Russia, Asia and Africa building for peace. Peace can happen if we believe.
Complain about this comment
Education, education and education!
(And did I mention education?)
The problem is a socio-cultural one:
1) Schools need to be decent (or even, gasp, good!).
2) Children from less privileged or educated families are at great disadvantage. Steps need to be taken to lessen that impact as much as possible.
But improving these two factors is useless, as long as:
3) There is a persistent attitude that education is a *white* thing or an *Anglo* thing or a *snooty upper-class* thing and so on.
These elections have clearly shown the anti-intellectual attitudes held by many Americans.
As long as *nerds*, or any pupil who wants to do well, are seen as targets for ridicule and bullying, it will be difficult to improve things. This is the *culture* that desperately needs to be attacked and changed.
Complain about this comment
I don't know if African Americans' relative poverty in the US is because of their culture. You need to define what "black" culture is, and how it is negative, and to do so is difficult, especially if you're not African American.
But, hey, just because there's a black man in the Oval office doesn't mean that racism is gone, or racial victimisation is over. If anything, Obama's election is a symbolic jesture that the country is willing to have a dialogue about race. Saying that a black person is now president, and racism is over, and all the problems blacks face is because of their culture and not because of 300+ years of slavery, is closing the dialoge. We need to continue the dialogue, and be willing to listen to all African Americans, not just the successful ones.
Complain about this comment
136. airJackie:
"more will move forward and be part of the recovery and success of the USA. I like the idea of the Middle East, Russia, Asia and Africa building for peace."
Not a good start:
"Mr. Obama . . .has declined to attend the president’s global economic summit meeting on Nov. 15." [New York Times]
Leaving aside the fact that this is not 'President Bush's global summit': he's had to be dragged kicking and screaming into it.
Complain about this comment
137, SpeleoKarst.
Most blacks will do just fine. However, the ghettos, which form a sub-culture, have ingrained problems. They are enclaves characterized by unwed mothers, absent fathers, violence, gangs, drugs, crime and alchoholism, and are supported to a large extent by welfare. The only salvation is to flee.
Improving one's lot in the ghettos through education is difficult, and it is not a question of money. The student body represents a one-class society, so the only role models the children have are each other. It is not cool to be a good student. Discipline is almost nonexistent and this inhibits progress no matter how fine the teachers or facilities.
If I ran the world I would tear down the housing projects and disperse the inhabitants. Then the inner city kids would have a chance.
Complain about this comment
139, ishish.
"Not a good start: 'Mr. Obama . . .has declined to attend the president?s global economic summit meeting on Nov. 15.' [New York Times]"
It would seem unwise for Obama to attend the summit. He has no official role. Were he to attend, Bush would have the voice, and it would not be politic for Obama to stick his oar in. Add to that the thought that Obama might like to make his own affiliations, unfettered by the present administration.
Complain about this comment
as a british license payer i expect more from the BBC. Black victimhood, black culture and indeed communal racial responsibility are complex issues that cannot be glibly summed up in three or four lines. In my view the concept of victim playing has been used as a rod with which to subtly beat all racial minorities for the last forty years, on one level i think it is at its base a construct of white superiority thinking and western capitalism, an on another i see it as a attempt to rationalize the position of black people in the world.
Essentially the concept of victim playing asserts that today if you are malcontent black man, and you beheave as such then it is essentially your own fault and you should stop complaining about your lot and do something about it-correct? we all have the same oppurtunities correct? if you don't or cant better yourself then you are lazy, low IQ, got a chip on your shoulder, aggressive, oversexed, savage etc and the easy was to excuse you self is to PLAY the racial victim card. i.e blame the white man for problems he had no hand in creating or perpetuating. My problem with the logic is that it relys on the idea that basic animal instinct racism on either side doesn't exist, and that essentially we all have an equal share of power and access to resources. Neither of these statements are even close to being true. White people rule todays world-together white majority countries are the richest and most militarily mighty nations on Earth. I find it odd that some white people are quick to assert that this is down to the historical superority of white people in terms of scientific, military and philosophical advancement, whilst denying the ongoing negative impact of slavery, imperialism and racist ideology. I find it odder still that even today some black people still chose to tie their chances in this world to the whim of the power holding whites, many of whom rightly or wrongly feel no moral responsibility towards the the ancestors of those people who their ancestors conqured or enslaved. Aside from the fact that above all I believe the idea of 'race' as Victorian nonsense, I don't belive that equality or indeed power is something to be given having been 'earned' that is kind of self loathing slave mentality. I don't look to the white man for sympathy or help i know Im not going to get. Rather then playing the part designed for me by the racist-the moaning out of control victim, Id rather concern myself with attaining power and therfore equality on my own terms. The black culture that Justin refers to, in that i mean he is referring to the excesses of the western black male-violence,crime, misogyny, poor parenting, low belif in education etc are in my view part of this unholy cycle of blame. The white racist calls out the black man for his sins whilst denying him real opportunity to change or indeed really be any other way , the black victim plays his part giving the white racist all the proof he needs to justify his behavior to himself and the black unhappily man accepts his lot.
I think Barack Obama has just broken this cycle we know live in a world changed. Black people can no longer play the victim, not because Obama's election has proved racism doesn't exsit in America ( that will take centuries to erode), but because he has proved that it does not even matter. I was lucky enough to be taught someone can only stop you if you let him and Barack proved to be an unstoppable Juggernaught literally crushing his opponent. It remains to be seen if White America is really ready for this shift in the consciousness of non white america. That for the first time the shackles of racism are being seen as surmountable ultimately rendering them totally irrelevant, we can no longer be given a station in the grand order of things. culturally speaking that is so important for black peoples collective psyche. In my eyes Obama gives all people hope. He stands for self determination and not self destruction. All of the negative black culture that justin refers too I see largely as a function of centuries of worldwide poverty. Hopefully Obamas victory, will finally show all of us black people that intellect, education, moral integrity, determination self belif and yes, economic strength are the road to power and with it true equality.
By voting in such numbers for the first time the Blacks and hispanic people of america stood up and were counted. They along with everyone who voted for Obama ceased to be victims of a system they have felt they had no control over and exercised their right to change it, in the search for a brighter better future.
Complain about this comment
Well said, Justin, and thoughtful.
It's too early to say what will result in race relations from the Obama presidency. The simple fact that he prevailed to win the Presidency because tens of millions of white voters decided in his favour, will temporarily mute the professional race-baiters like Sharpton and Jackson, who have made careers of blackmailing any and all who stood in their way with cries of 'racism'.
They'll be back, because it's who they are, and what they do--they are of the left, and when all else fails, they call names and smear reputations.
With any luck, the example of BHO's election will stand in contrast to their 'victim' rants.
With greater luck, President Obama(still hard to type that one...)will repudiate them in public. That would be an eternal gift he could leave this country.
Time will tell.
Complain about this comment
#39. british-ish: "this is not 'President Bush's global summit': he's had to be dragged kicking and screaming into it."
But he is hosting it, hence "his" global summit.
Complain about this comment
#143, OldSouth, I would have to respectfully
disagree. The old black leadership from the
60's is gone - Wright, Jackson, Sharpton, old news.
No black (or hispanic, or any other minority)
child will ever have the excuse to grow up
believing that they are limited as to how far
they can rise in this country because of their race
or ethnicity.
Even though Obama is way too far to the left
for me, I have to agree that his election has,
at a single stroke, forever changed the way that
race is perceived in America, and for the better.
Complain about this comment
There is nothing like black or white culture. Culture is not colour based. It depends on what part of the world you come from (black or white).
I am of Nigerian and British nationality and I have lived my 42 years almost equally in the UK and Nigeria. It irritates me to hear people like you refer to black culture.
You should know better!
Complain about this comment
#145. gunsandreligion: "Even though Obama is way too far to the left for me, I have to agree that his election has, at a single stroke, forever changed the way that race is perceived in America, and for the better."
To use an old aphorism, "one swallow does not a summer make".
#146. seyifad: "There is nothing like black or white culture. Culture is not colour based. It depends on what part of the world you come from (black or white)."
In this case we are discussing Black Americans, and many do consider that they have a separate, Afro-centric culture. Consider the establishment of Kwanza in the United States, a festival created by and for African-Americans. It has no basis in African history and yet it is considered to be culturally African. Black Americans are aware of their heritage and frequently use that as the basis of African-based dance, music and other artistic endeavours. Many of these have become adapted to "white" culture, wonderful hymns and spirituals, jazz, ragtime, a particular, flamboyant style of playing piano in church, even the style of oratory which Mr Obama used, but which originated largely with black clergy - for example, Martin Luther King Jr. I'm probably as white as they come, blue eyes, fair skin and golden-red hair (although a bit tarnished now) but I can recognise the enormous gifts that Black Americans have bestowed upon us. To say there is no Black culture does a disservice to them - and all Americans.
Complain about this comment
Justine,
Tell me if Lewis Hamilton suffers from 'victimhood' or racism. Then tell me which one should be tackled first to break the vicious cycle.
Complain about this comment
What Obama's success has shown is that the US Constitution and its preamble can be made to work for all and not just for some.
It might succeed in ending "victimhood" in the USA - I certainly hope so, because I think that often this victimhood is what holds many people back.
As far as exporting that to the UK is concerned - we can't, because we have no constitution!
Complain about this comment
As an African male raised in the UK, I always knew that I had to be better than the competition to "succeed" in my chosen field. If I failed it was because I hadn't tried hard enough. Now that the ultimate glass ceiling has been shattered, we can all strive to be the best that we can be.
The Obama victory now means that the black man in America has NO MORE EXCUSES!
Complain about this comment
This is a genuine question that needs to be asked. When considering "racism" it is 99% of the time in the context of whites being racist to others. As our Racial commissioner said this year - racial prejudice affects all racial groups, regardless of creed or colour.
Do we think that Obama wants to be viewed as a Black president for black people ? Clearly the answer is no - he wants to unite, re-invigorate and develop ALL communities and relations in the US, and at all levels. Will he have a sympathetic ear for the Black community, I believe so, but he will also expect that community to help itself - if they expect a positive racism approach I think they'll be sadly mistaken. That is the American way - make your own future - although with more basic oppurtunities for all.
One thing I did hear yesterday from a black lady in the UK - she proclaimed "We are equal now". Most whites would consider black/white equal by default, but clearly some in the black community feel different....I have to ask the question - doesn't that in itself show prejudice, even racism within that community ?
Complain about this comment
Barney probably had the last word on this discussion at the White House yesterday.
Can we now move on ?
Complain about this comment
There is still a long way to go to truly defeat racism. However "victimhood" has now become the preserve of a different group:
Rightwing straight white middle class males. In the face of all the evidence they claim to be discriminated against and to be disadvantaged. Lets tackle that issue, by exposing their lies. THEIR culture must change.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
To follow on from MrFaulty's (#148) correct observation, were the black English footballers to blame for the racist chanting they received from Croatian and Spanish fans? When these footballers complain about it are they suffering from 'victimhood' or racism?
Complain about this comment
The root cause of racism is not people of colour making life difficult for themselves by promoting a culture of victimisation. I would suggest it is more do do with many white people adapting discriminatory behavior that goes way back to religious support for the slave trade along with a deluded notion of racial superiority,even supported by pseudoscience, that is still extant in some parts of the world.
As a London schoolteacher 20 years back I did see talented young black teenagers lose interest in school after being told by their peers that it was a waste of time. But again,you might ask why young black people thought that way...maybe a result of coming across a brick wall when applying for jobs in companies with racist and ignorant human resource managers. It's getting better here though and attitudes have changed a lot.
Complain about this comment
Another white person attempting to tell others what their problems are? A black man being elected into office will not suddenly resolve the problems of African Americas. While it shows the opportunity to create your own future, it does not mean racism has ceased to exist. I don't want to go over a long list of racial incidences that have occurred in the last 5 years alone.
On the issue of equality: wait till you have been called names on a train in London, told you that you sound funny at work, asked to shorten your name cos it cant be pronounced, asked what you are doing in a posh area of town or stopped by the police cos you look suspicious or spat on just because someone does not like that you are shades darker than he is. While I have chosen to rise above all that and know that a majority of people are decent, those things do make you cynical about the human race.
I also think it is patronizing for someone who has been on the other side to tell me what my problems are and how to solve them!!!
Complain about this comment
117. At 03:32am on 07 Nov 2008, David_Cunard wrote:
#104. Byungmoon: "The Onion publishes jokes and their entire stories are made up."
Apparently 'duhbuh' didn't know that and took it for what it was, as did I. Thanks for the explanation.
I've been reading The Onion for years. The fact that David thought this was real has made my day.
91. At 00:06am on 07 Nov 2008, geomapgirl wrote:
The article in question was not so much slamming Obama supporters as it was slamming the ridiculousness of the accusations that have and had been leveled against them.
No geomapgirl, it's slamming Obama supporters. And very effectively.
Complain about this comment
How rapidly can an ethnic culture change? Perhaps the major factor is the tenacity with which the ethnic identity is maintained, both by the ethnics and by the surrounding culture. The South African rhetoric of a “Rainbow Coalition” certainly helps to reduce such ethnic separation.
Apart from identity provided by skin color, such factors as the neighborhood in which one lives, one’s occupation, etc., serve to organize and maintain sub-cultures. Role models are important in forming young attitudes and lives. The Obamas will certainly demonstrate that all is possible to young blacks and thereby potentiate rapid change within a generation or two.
The usefulness of such separation to the upper classes is suggested by the persistence over two thousand years of the Indian Caste system. There are also the values of a subculture which have emerged over centuries- the individual conforming to the norms of the subculture will have a more comfortable life within the subculture.
Thus, dissolving the barriers that trap individuals within a subculture are the key to promoting the change of an ethnic subculture. The Obamas should be a major factor in potentiating this.
A few years ago, much attention was paid to the question of “national character”. MacLean’s ‘Mind and Ideology’ (ISBN 9780920282113) discusses many aspects of this.
For example: .. “Ostensible “national character” can change rapidly with external circumstances and with the observer. Almond and Verba (1963) found 93% of Germans expressing generalized mistrust in 1948, but only 59% as doing so in 1959…”
This would give us hope that having role models and dissolving barriers would enable rapid change of the black subculture.
Complain about this comment
ref #135
Marbles:
So you excuse Michelle Obama's hatread because she is black?
And you are using the Sharpton reasoning those that are not blachave no right to criticize?
Complain about this comment
#153 Notting Hill Hammer
Seconded!
Complain about this comment
# badmagic
Michelle has shown no hatred - only tolerance.
She is a force for good.
I wish that others could be the same.
Complain about this comment
I feel like this issue is important but it shouldn't get any spot light at all. Of course there are many african americans who support him because they feel that this will make the change for them. Obama himself has made it clear that it will not become the theme of his Presidency. Even though he has held big speechs on specif day where we are reminded of the raciem in the past (M.L. King Days). On a another point I do feel that if he does make mistakes in one aspect we may find ourselves in the 50's again where the mistake won't be One Mans Mistake but another "black guys" error. He is represnting much more than other presidents (involuntary) since he himself has never said anything. And thats what it comes down to. I think he will end a major part of rasicm since his right descions will give the middle class redneck american a better view on african americans.
All in all I just hope that his descions won't be taken as wrong from people because of his color
Complain about this comment
Justin, why did you fall into the trap of not defining which elements of culture you consider 'black'? It is futile to argue about whether it is black culture or not.
I think you meant what is stereotypical perception:
Gangsta rap, escaping poverty through sport or music and critically, the view that trying educate and work your way out of poverty is 'selling out' and becoming white, which leads to victimhood.
Like all stereotypes there is an element of truth but can't possibly capture the complexity of an entire group of people.
This blog does the same for white people (and yes it is satire for those who don't know their Onion from their elbow). Looking through it you see how annoying it is to be pigeonholed, even though you know bits of it are true. http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/
Of course it focuses on liberal, urban white mores, not Nascar, hunting and teens pledging chastity before marriage; that's the white stereotype and we all have to put up with them even if we know they are not completely true.
Obama is selling hope and change and has cleverly shifted the onus back onto Americans to deliver it. He is a poster child for progress but on a tightrope, if he doesn't deliver he will have considered to have sold out by some but this is where he needs all his rhetorical skill to sell something new and inspire a generation.
Complain about this comment
160 MagicKirin wrote:
ref #135
Marbles:
So you excuse Michelle Obama's hatread because she is black?
__________________
O.k. I'll bite... Please explain exactly how Michelle Obama's "hatread" (Sic.) expresses itself?
BTW: For the first I'm really proud (or at least not too embarrassed) to be half-American!
P.S. As far as it matters, I have white skin...
Complain about this comment
Racism is still prevalent in the US and UK today for 2 major reasons (although there might be a thousand more)
1) The severe disregard for fairness; some parts of the establishment still believe 'black people' are dump and inferior and therefore they are not up to the job. The Metropolitan Police Force, in London, UK is a classic example of this. What makes any human being or establishment think that one race is superior or more intelligent than the other sends the shivers down my spine. Their's is a case for contempt rather than rage.
2) Black people as well have themselves to blame. They should stop playing victim or the race card. Although it is justified sometimes. But then again, if you think about the opportunities open to everyone in the US, UK etc. There is no excuse for not achieving the basics.
A billion people in the world over can only dream of these opportunities. The govt of any state be it in the west or not will only provide the basics and it is left to the individuals to do the rest.
What is it with the black redneck culture? Are you surprised I used the term 'black redneck culture'? Well this is what it means - the ones who get pregant at 14, live on welfare for the rest of their lives, expect the state to do everything for them without lifting a finger, can work but will not work.
Even though some of them are not cut out for school, they have either in one way or the other refused to learn a trade which will enable them to learn a living.
I don't think this is what their ancestors envisaged after the abolition of slavery. Slaves in those days will give an arm and a leg to go to school and be educated and yet these rednecks have taken it for granted. I rest my case
Complain about this comment
I'm getting bored with all these white middle class people with a superiority complex giving their ignorant opinions about African-Americans. They blame 'African-American Culture' for Blacks living in poverty! Same old racist claptrap from people who know no better.
Complain about this comment
#160 Magic
Can you show me an instance where Michelle has shown hatred?
Complain about this comment
Until this (at best) ignorant post, I'd attributed your obvious preference for McCain simply to the fact that you tipped him to win the Presidency a year ago. now I know better.
Complain about this comment
Here's a thought: Isn't it true that, over the last 135 years, the party of Lincoln gradually morphed into the party of Jefferson Davis, and vice-versa? The "Southern Strategy" of the Republicans completed the process, and the corruption of Ulysses S Grant's administration by big-money interests started it.
With regard to the latter point, look at what Blair and Mandelson, aided by Gordon Brown, have done to the Labour party.
Complain about this comment
Speaking of racism, here's a story that links it to the universal healthcare issue.
Complain about this comment
"Cross B.L.T. with the "Praire fire" Manifesto of William Ayres and you have the inner core of Obama's political ID. How much of it will come through into conscious policy remains unprovable." - exserviceman
So no evidence of Obama's actions in office can possibly contradict your claims about his "inner core". This is what is called a "reinforced dogmatism".
"Infomation is power, so expecting Rahm to be truely independent of his master is a dream."
Er, the White house Chief of Staff is not supposed to be independent of the President.
Complain about this comment
67. UKexPat123 wrote:
"#12 "Can Obama, who has so ruthlessly mobilised the racial vote, now refuse to deliver the payback?"
Over the last few elections, around 90% of African-American votes have been cast for the Democrat candidate anyway. ... And I don't think Obama really played the race card in his campaign. "
The interesting issue is not how many previous black votes were democrat, but how many black voters came out and voted. Obama was cautious not to publicly play the race card himself, but others did it for him.
It may be unacceptable for white people to vote based on the colour of someone's skin, but lets not try to pretend that this has not happened here.
People who had never voted before came out en-mass and voted on racial grounds once they had a 'black' candidate to vote for.
Are people really saying that this turnout can be left unrewarded once he is in office? Would the same people turn out again next time?
Complain about this comment
We are, to a greater or lesser extent, the product of our environment (mixed in with our genertic legacies).
To say that the plight of black americans is due to black american culture is a very simplified version of this idea I suppose.
To say that any "culture" black americans may be a part of (how that culture is shaped or a part of the wider american culture is a seperate debate) is the total sum of their environment, and therefore largely responsible for their plight ignores the many other influences on their environment that lie outside any defined black american culture.
As a white uk male, that is about as far as I am qualified to comment.
Complain about this comment
Ref 12
"Can Obama, who has so ruthlessly mobilised the racial vote, now refuse to deliver the payback?"
Did the candidates who so ruthlessly mobilized the racial vote in the past when they elected the last 43 Presidents feel obligated to deliver to their constituents? Judging by the despicable events that took place until as recently as five decades ago the answer may be yes, but the progress that has been made since LBJ signed the 1964 Civil Rights Act suggest that our modern-day leaders have been people of integrity committed to improving race relations and doing everything they could to ensure equal treatment and prosperity for all Americans.
The most remarkable aspect of Obama's campaign is the opposite to what you suggest. He ran a campaign devoid of racial overtones and focused almost entirely on the welfare and security of ALL Americans. That is the reason why 67% of Hispanics and 43% of "whites" voted for him. Get over it and accept reality.
Instead of rehashing issues that most Americans have put behind and belong in the bins of history, shouldn't we be discussing the makeup of Obama's Cabinet, his likely top priorities, or even the plight of pitbulls?
Complain about this comment
#167 To complain about middle class people with a superiority complex giving their ignorant opinions" would be fair enough, to complain about "white middle class people" is racist, or inverted racist if coming from a white person. In any case, it is divisive and contributes nothing to the debate.
However, the attitudes complained of are not new in history. Marx and Engels classified certain of the working class as "Lumpenproletariat" in that these people were not seeking the self-improvement which the very middle-class Marx and Engels thought that they ought to. What they did not consider, as they did not socialise with the "Lumpenproletariat" is that poverty, deprivation and the struggle for survival destroy people's capacity to have aspirations. In much of Britain, indeed in my own family, nonconformist Christianity was often what encouraged working class people to improve themselves. Some other religions had a more negative effect. I am not a Christian, but I know that without my grandparents' aspirations of self-improvement, I would not have the education or the relative prosperity I now enjoy. Poor people, of any race, need both understanding from those who are better off, and help and encouragement to believe that a better life is possible and worth struggling for. As a teacher who has seen far too much talent go to waste, I know that this is difficult but not impossible.
I hope that the election of President Obama give a boost to the aspirations of people to improve their lives - and not only in the US! Let "Yes we can" become reality.
Complain about this comment
# 170
The change started post-Eisenhower.
There was increasing prosperity and mobility in the South.
Populists who had distrusted bankers came to identify with the ruling classes and became "Dixiecrats".
With television, the those who funded the media created and spread their ideology.
That caused many to identify with the ideology fostered by the wealthy who controlled the media and repeat the catch phrases of the Republicans.
Today, rednecks and their local exploiters repeat the phrases as if they were expressing their own thoughts.
[Also, remember that Israel gave the evangelist Jerry Falwell a Learjet!]
Complain about this comment
ref #168
See my post #90 and then googled yourself.
Complain about this comment
ref #162
Michelle has had a easy patronage job for the last severral years, because she is married to Obama.
I found her very polarizing and I believe Hillary clinton would probaly agree with me.
If she was not married to Obama she would be considered as classless as Maxine Waters and Diane Wilkerson
Complain about this comment
Going back to the original comment made by Justin Webb....I'm glad that the point was raised and that white people feel comfortable enough to raise it (I mean that sincerely). However, it does highlight one main point. It implies that "Black Culture" and mainstream hip hop are the same thing. It also implies that Hip Hop culture is in its very nature negative and promotes "victimhood".
I can understand how these perceptions come about but spend just a day in any black family (in the UK or US, or anywhere else) and you will find out that Black culture is so much more than what you think you see in mediocre black films and repetitive rap and RnB on MTV. Hip Hop culture is dominant, I would be foolish to pretend otherwise. What is thrown at us 24/7 through mainstream media outlets is only a small part of what Hip Hop is really about. If you look past the diamonds and guns for a few minutes there is another world of artists and musicians out there.....Im very sure that some of these artists, actors, poets, writers, singers and MC's are on Obama's I-pod, DVD player and bookshelves.
So to summarise my random trail of thought....What I think Im trying to say is that black culture as a whole is not to blame for black people feeling victimised. It is a combination of many things but ultimately it is up to the individual to realise their own self responsibility. Once we start to do that (as Mr Obama has done) then the results will be literally unbelievable!!
Complain about this comment
#179 Magic
I'm pretty sure Rush Limbaugh would agree with you.
Michelle is a harvard graduate, and a lawyer. I don't see why you should be bothered about her, when she isn't going to be doing much in the white house. You want to pick her as your new target, now that the election is over?
Complain about this comment
175. DominickVila wrote:
"... The most remarkable aspect of Obama's campaign is the opposite to what you suggest. He ran a campaign devoid of racial overtones..."
Justin was asking the question: has the era of racial special pleading come to an end with the election of Obama.
I accept Obama scrupulously avoided publicly playing the race card. Oprah Winfrey, Spike Lee, Jessie Jackson etc did it for him. The activists that targetted specific areas to turn out the racial vote did it for him.
The idea that people who had never being willing to vote whilst the democrat candidate was (white) Clinton or (white) Gore, but will turn out to vote now the democrat candidate is (black) Obama are not influenced by race is just not credible.
Time will tell if Obama has the integrity to sacrifice himself on the alter of fairness. But if he turns out large numbers of people on a racial ticket, then he will need to meet the expectations of those same people if he wants them to do the same thing again.
As Ralph Nader has pointed out - there are a variety of perjorative terms used by that community for people who forget their loyalties.
Complain about this comment
179 MagicKirin
You accuse someone (Michelle Obama) of showing "hatread" (Sic.), yet you can't even give one real example of how...
And, no, please don't give me a link to some "squirrel-food" oriented blog, just simply say how she does it.
Complain about this comment
An Ode to the republican party.
Politics is war, because like in war, at the end you are left with a victor and a vanquished. Sadly, to my anguish, the republican party was the vanquished on Tuesday, 4th November 2008. I watched in anguish has the republican party and its flag bearer unbelievably let themselves be heckled into giving up power so meekly.
I followed the build up of both parties keenly. John Mcain emerged the Republican flag bearer, whilst contrary to predictions, Barrack Obama emerged as the Democratic flag bearer. I remember thinking to myself, that this ought to be a very easy draw for Mcain. I remember laughing at how in my opinion the Democratic Party had blown their chances of wrestling power from the republicans. What were they thinking pitching a novice with a veteran. To think Barrack Obama was a man of color did not help their cause one bit, at least so I thought. Fast forward to 4th November 2008, Barrack Obama is declared the winner of the election. To make matters more agonising for true conservatives, he won by a land slide in the electoral college. How did this anomaly occur. How did the perceived front runner ( Mcain ) become the underdog.
Why did Mcain lose the election? Mcain was spot on in his concession speech, he failed himself and his supporters. Mcain lost the election in my view on several counts. Obama’s victory was a triumph of emotions over commonsense. There were several emotional forces that tipped the victory for Obama, but I will focus on the 3
( three ) most potent by my estimation.
They are as follows:
1. Coloured/Minority emotional force.
2. Ant-Bush emotional force
3. White emotional force.
Complain about this comment
Coloured/Minority:
This was an Historic election by all accounts. Obama was the 1st coloured/minority person with a realistic chance of being president, and there was no way they were going to let that opportunity slip them by. The road had been long and torturous and this was an event no one thought they could ever witness in their life time. Obama’s inexperience or record was a non-starter with coloured people. He was one of them and they were not going to desert him under any circumstance. He embodied their hope, frustrations and anxiety with the American system and as witnessed in their turnout on election day, they backed him to the hilt. Mcain stood very little chance with these block of voters. That is why one must look at Colin Powell’s endorsement in this prism. He was not going to let history consign him to irrelevance as Americans elected their 1st black president. In my opinion, Mcain was too soft on Powell for his betrayal. Politics is war, and the moment Powell joined the enemy, he too became the enemy. If I were Mcain, I would have repaid Powell in kind, by choosing to win the election 1st and foremost, then preserving our friendship later.
Anti-Bush:
G. W. Bush approval rating is stale news. Whipped up by the Liberal media, most Americans have rightly or wrongly come to loathe their president. Bush is after-all human and prone to making mistakes, but the media went into over drive in their criticism of him. They managed to steer a mere discontent of his policies and actions into a whole new religion of hate against his person and presidency. The American people bought into hit hook line and sinker and obliged the media to the extent that Bush hating/trashing is now very fashionable. The just concluded election was not so much a contest between Mcain and Obama, but more of a referendum on George W. Bush. The I HATE Bush frenzy could only result into a NO vote for Bush and a YES protest vote for Obama, with Mcain not even on the ballot. Mcain and his camp were very woeful in their handling of this issue. If I were them, firstly, I would have forced the MSM into being fair in their reporting of the election. Some rough and unconventional tactics should have been employed into compelling the media to be fair and balanced in their reports. The Obama camp successfully compelled Fox news into being fair by not only labelling them as an arm of the republican party, but by using other smear campaigns and tactics. I, like most other pro Mcain bloggers were constantly bullied, smeared and harassed on the web. I was once called a racist and redneck for pointing out Obama’s inadequacies. Though I am a Black African
( Nigerian ) I almost became duty-bound by these hate spewing, name calling bloggers into being ashamed of my legitimate criticism of Obama’s record and character. Mcain’s camp in my view, easily let Obama and his people win the propaganda war. They surrendered the airspace and allowed Obama and his supporters to carpet bomb Mcain and his supporters into oblivion and submission. It reminded me of the free reign Russia had over Georgian airspace. The persistent carpet bombing by the media in cahoot with the Obama camp left Mcain’s supporters disillusioned. It also left Mcain unsure of his next moves, hence the sometimes contradictory actions he took. Sadly, Mcain let the MSM set the tone of his campaign. His handling of the Bush link was pathetic at best. He was right not to get cosy with Bush, but got it absolutely wrong when he allowed the media bait him into disowning Bush. Bush may have a low approval rating, but he his still quite popular amongst segments of his own party. Alienate Bush and risk alienating his republican supporters. I read somewhere that it was estimated that Obama got 20% of the conservative vote. Bush’s approval rating is between 20 – 30%, go figure!
Complain about this comment
THE PALIN QUESTION??
What question is that? It is extremely laughable when the MSM try to discredit and destroy the only flicker of hope in the rather inept campaign of the republicans. To understand where they are coming from, one must remember the maxim that POLITICS is WAR. In war the vanquished is disgraced and humiliated and its continued survival is usually at the whim of the victor. Politics is no different. The only slight difference is that unlike in war, what is at stake is IDEOLOGY. The Palin question, is a non-starter. It is what it is, an Obama/Democratic party/MSM spoils of war. The defeated always have to live with the indignity of why they were defeated.
It is however ludicrous to suggest that someone who brought verve and dynamism to a flagging campaign could have been a drag to that same campaign. Palin rallied the republican base and she did her best to motivate an otherwise lukewarm base to rally around their flagbearer. To suggest that she was a drag because she did not appeal to the people that were not going to vote Republican irrespective, is self contradictory. There is no Palin question and I do hope that the republican party wont be hoodwinked into such false assumption of the MSM and their quack political pundits/experts.
Complain about this comment
As a black British man who's 41 years old, noone was more happy than me on Tuesday night when Barack Obama created history by becoming the first Black president in American history. It is a moment that will resonate with black people the world over, for the rest of their lives.
That said, we need to put things into perspective. Barack won this election by coming across as a non-threatening, educated, intellectual and articulate black man. For pockets of white America this threw them somewhat off kilter, because Barack didn't appear to adhere to the usual negative stereotypes that are levelled at black man i.e. aggression, lack of intellect/intelligence, laziness etc.
This is the reason why it was so hard for McCain to paint Obama as a "terrorist" or "bad" because his demeanour and countenance could never be construed as being synonymous with any of those character traits.
To suggest that his emphatic election victory will somehow put an end to racism as we know it, and leave blacks devoid of an excuse to accuse a white counterpart of racism, is one of the most spurious rationales I've ever heard in my 41 years on this planet.
The irony in all of this is that the hardest hurdle of them all, a black man becoming president of the U.S., has now been shattered beyond repair, yet there are a myriad of smaller and more "modest" hurdles that have yet to be broken down.
Another irony is the accolades from politicians in this country particularly on the right side of the political spectrum, who although they've issued praise to Obama for breaking down the racial barriers and becoming the 44th president, wouldn't even consider buying a property next door to a family looking like the one we saw on the News after the election had been won.
Even when I look at the BBC, I think it's a staid organsation in terms of its employee demographic. Whilst they profess to be an equal opportunities employer (doesn't everybody), this doesn't seem to be translated into the visible employee demographic we see at the BBC. I've yet to see a black person on the sofa presenting the "Breakfast news" show on BB1 at 6am in the morning and I think that is very sad, when you consider that we're constantly being told how multi-cultural London/Britain is.
ITV are just as complicit on this issue also, as I've never seen a black person presenting on the prestigious GMTV sofa in all the years that I've been watching GMTV.
It has never ceased to amaze me that GMTV can give a presenter's job to a third rate former tennis player like Andrew Castle, but cannot in all the years that they've been on air, give a job to a qualified black journalist, that would be reflective of the diverse demographic and make-up of this country.
What's also sad are the tokenistic appointments of black people (i.e. Moira Stuart, Trevor McDonald) that are made to give the black community the impression that the BBC are somehow "meeting their quota" of employing blacks and ethic minorities, but to be honest, it never has and never will wash with me. When you use a "turnstile" method to employ black people in high profile positions, all that says to people is that you are not prepared to have more than one black person in a high profile position, at any given time. In that respect I don't think we've come as far as we should have.
It is important for everyone to keep in mind that despite the fact that Barack Obama, is now president, it does not negate the fact that blacks both here and in America, are today working in corporations that for the most part, are owned by white people and will be answerable to white people in senior positions in a corporate environment, who in many cases will have hidden racist agendas coupled with the leverage to implement them.
Never underestimate the toxic social ill that is racism. Granted, things are a bit better, but it's still here.
Complain about this comment
Ice,
Please list one or more "commonsense" reasons why McCain/Palin would have been a better choice. Please provide evidence in support of each assertion.Thanks in advance.
Peace and Commonsense
ed
Complain about this comment
#183 icetayoa
I can think of a couple more reasons. I personally admire John Mccain, adn I feel he was hard done by the party itself. I don't think the choice of VP was his decision, it seemed more like a decision taken by the party neocons. Though I don't agree with some of your comments:
"The Obama camp successfully compelled Fox news into being fair by not only labelling them as an arm of the republican party, but by using other smear campaigns and tactics."
So you do admit that they were biased in their coverage by calling socialist and leftist. So, is being a fair news channel bad?
"It reminded me of the free reign Russia had over Georgian airspace"
Well, Georgia invaded first, so they must expect the consequences. You can't invade another country and not pay the consequences.
Complain about this comment
THE PALIN QUESTION??
What question is that? It is extremely laughable when the MSM try to discredit and destroy the only flicker of hope in the rather inept campaign of the republicans. To understand where they are coming from, one must remember the maxim that POLITICS is WAR. In war the vanquished is disgraced and humiliated and its continued survival is usually at the whim of the victor. Politics is no different. The only slight difference is that unlike in war, what is at stake is IDEOLOGY.
The Palin question, is a non-starter. It is what it is, an Obama,Democratic party,MSM spoils of war. The defeated always have to live with the indignity of why they were defeated. It is however ludicrous to suggest that someone who brought verve and dynamism to a flagging campaign could have been a drag to that same campaign. Palin rallied the republican base and she did her best to motivate an otherwise lukewarm base to rally around their flagbearer. To suggest that she was a drag because she did not appeal to the people that were not going to vote Republican irrespective, is self contradictory. There is no Palin question and I do hope that the republican party wont be hoodwinked into such false assumption of the MSM and their quack political pundits and experts.
Complain about this comment
Ref 182
"The idea that people who had never being willing to vote whilst the democrat candidate was (white) Clinton or (white) Gore, but will turn out to vote now the democrat candidate is (black) Obama are not influenced by race is just not credible."
Can you blame people who have been marginalized throughout our history for being enthusiastic and supporting one of their own?
Perhaps you should take a look at the pictures of our last 43 Presidents, reflect on what you see, and then tell us if the preservation of our cherished Norman Rockwell society had nothing to do with their presidencies.
Obama was elected because he was the best candidate, because he provided the most substantive and hopeful vision for America and, yes, because he is a member of an ethnic group that has been denied the rights and opportunities that were available to the rest of us until a few decades ago.
The importance and significance of his election should not be trivialized with nonsensical claims and unfounded criticisms.
Complain about this comment
Obama is an energizing, inspiring figure. He has succeeded brilliantly. His pathway to success was innate talent combined with determination and education.
For the rest of us of more moderate gifts, we can do as well as we're able to by learning from his example. Value education, apply yourself, deliberately acquire positive role models, and respect your family.
We all can fall prey to "victimhood" mentality. There will always be people with inherent advantages of wealth or social position. The main thing is to not expect the society that you need to work within to adapt to you.
In America we can behave as we want in our own homes, but in the working arena we need to adapt to what is required to best perform the job. Job performance is by and large the final arbiter of success in America.
But for those situations where good job performance is deliberately circumvented by local management you can still persevere if you use your available State and National legal resources and keep good written records. A pre-eminent function of government is to promote economic opportunity by equalizing the job opportunity "playing field" for all its members.
Opportunity in our melting-pot culture must be based on individual job skill competence, not personal connections, innate physical appearance or wealth. Obama is proof it is possible.
Complain about this comment
Re Post 111:
I would also recommend the 4th series of possibly the most authentic drama series ever made, The Wire, also set in Baltimore and very relevent with regards to the educational issues discussed above.
P.S
Probably best to watch from series one, you wouldn't want to ruin the rest.
Complain about this comment
anglohawaiian on 29: Such eloquence and insight. The best post I have ever read.
Justin: You are a master at provoking the hubris of your audience. Great fun to read the responses even if much is repeated and tired rhetoric.
Complain about this comment
Ref 142 GAIKASWORLD
I'd like to point out that the "black culture that justin refers too" is the black culture Bill Cosby, a black man and American, naturally, referred to. Hence Justin's question.
I think you over-simplify the problem of black poverty, particularly with reference to "world-wide poverty", in the process not placing some of the blame squarely where it lies.
The "centuries of world-wide poverty", in the African context, has been compounded for more than four decades by black Africans all on their own, depite many getting fine educations in Britain and the U.S. Billions of dollars of aid from Western
'white' countries have been poured into Africa, yet through its own special genius it continues to a be a poverty-striken, war-torn, mess, primarily through the corruption, greed and incompetence of useless leaders who have little interest in improving the lot of their own people while enriching themselves and funding extravagant life-styles.
Further to that, tribalism and inter-tribal hatred, a form of racism, manifested all over Africa, but particularly in Rwanda and now again in Congo, drags countries into wars they cannot afford, impoverish them further, and continues the useless cycle of poverty.
Black Africa is now largely the architect of its own mess and it has precious little to do with slavery, begun, incidentally by the Arabs (which is not intended to reduce the responsibility of white slavers), and an activity in which black Africans were complicit by capturing and selling into slavery people of their own race.
It is estimated that more than a third of Western aid has been stolen by black leaders who have filled the coffers of Swiss banks, much of the rest sqaundered on badly run or ill-conceived programmes. Zimbabwe, without an ounce of input from white people and once the bread basket of southern Africa when their farms flourished, has been dragged into the mess it is by a black man, Robert Mugabe, who is also responsible for the murder, by genocide, of about 20,000 Ndabele people in Matabeleland.
The "excesses of western black males - violence, crime, misogyny, poor parenting, low belief in education, etc", is similarly reflected by many black males in South Africa. It's not just in the West. Nelson Mandela's 'Rainbow nation' since the overthrow of apartheid and introduction of black rule, has become one the most crime-ridden countries on earth. The government concedes to about 59,000 rapes a year (mostly of black women, girls and infants less than a year old!), but women's groups say it is more like 1.5 million.
It strikes me that the deficiencies in black culture in America, as described by Bill Cosby, needs to be addressed by black people without looking elsewhere to constantly place blame, not because some blame doesn't exist, but because it doesn't encourage self-examination for the source of problems.
Hopefully, a president of mixed race will raise the self-esteem of blacks and other minorities, and reach into the hearts of America's cities where poverty, crime and violence have become a way of life.
In my estimation 'allmymarbles', Ref 140, addressed a big part of the problem Bill Cosby had in mind.
Complain about this comment
Ezekial,
Seconded!Peace and brotherhood
ed
Complain about this comment
"Barack won this election by coming across as a non-threatening, educated, intellectual and articulate black man." ezekielthemack
Actually, I'd suggest that these qualities - and that of being a northern, Ivy League lawyer, could be seen as additional barriers to winning the Presidency! Which Obama overcame partly because of the astonishing mess GWB has made, which naturally reflected on his party; partly because of the timing of the financial crisis, which foregrounded economic questions, on which the Democrats are more trusted; partly because of Palin; and partly by being so clearly the best candidate, with the best policies.
Complain about this comment
icetoyoa,
Please do continue your cheerleading for Palin. This will ensure that the Republican Party remains divided and unelectable.
Complain about this comment
Iceteaya,
You forgot:
4. Obama intellectually superior and better educated
5. Obama young and healthy, McCain elderly and ill
6. VP pick of Palin horrified many
Complain about this comment
191. DominickVila
"Ref 182...
Can you blame people who have been marginalized throughout our history for being enthusiastic and supporting one of their own?
....
Perhaps you should take a look at the pictures of our last 43 Presidents, reflect on what you see..."
Remember the original question? - Is this the end of special pleading and the 'victim' identity?
Clearly not.
Complain about this comment
You would think so ..... but instead he will revert to the "gimme" politics of the 1960s, the Yank terminology being "social engineering" and the British term being "nanny state". He is from the Chicago machine.
Complain about this comment
#179
Majic, mon petit dejeuner,
Are you still bitter about that diversity job you thought Michelle wasn't qualified for because it needed a lawyer with some membership of a minority group i.e. people of color, women and GLBT's?
Mon cheri, she may have the job because of her media profile, but that is a qualification for the job.
You should call Hillary and ask her. If she won't take your call then you are not in a position to represent her views. I'm not aware of a polarizing view she has taken other than supporting minorities, women and working families. Now I am upset she doesn't spend more time advocating for fat bald middle aged rich white guys, but on the other hand we will probably survive.
As for class, she has a certain 'Je ne c'est quoi' Sans haute coture. She doesn't need to pay $50k over 2 months for a staff make up artist to look a million bucks.
Only a petty, small minded person attacks the First Lady, elect or no. And such folks don't command a lot of respect from the rest of society.
As we say in France,
C'est La Vie
Francois Sammy
Complain about this comment
#116 robloop
Hi there. hmm.. I keep noticing your posts everywhere I go. And having read them, I can not help but think, "this guy is really bitter about Obama winning or having won the election". Why such bitterness? Couldn't you be gracious and comment on the positives and merits of Obama's achievement? Mind you this blog is about "the racial significance of the Obama victory" (I want to emphasize the word "victory").
Instead, here you are complaining about "black racism".
Black people in the States have endured almost two centuries of repression and injustice. You? I couldn't comment on all your experiences with black people. Some could be bad but not all I am sure. But your ancestors weren't enslaved and when supposedly free, were treated like second class citizens.
Your complaints about "reverse racism" in the face of Obama's historic victory makes you look very petty.
Complain about this comment
#197 Nick-Gotts
Here's hoping that being well educated or articulate will no longer be seen as an impediment to higher office
Complain about this comment
#190
Ice,
Placing a vacuum in an environment in which matter exists invariably results in an implosion.
Poor dear Sarah was out of her depth and out for herself. Just the fact that she wanted to give a speech before McCain gave his concession speech shows her focus, herself. Would anyone else have dreamed of trying to muscle in on McCains moment to retain and regain some dignity? Has it ever been done before? The answer to both is no, but she shows up text in hand asking for an audience (Source, International Herald Tribune today. Hey, it's all I got available).
And the wardrobe purchases (apparently not authorized and now being audited) didn't turn off everyday folks?
Nah, she wasn't a drag on the ticket. Limbore is right, the Republicans just are not conservative enough.
Bunker, Russians, Thousand Year Reich etc.
Sam Priestly
Complain about this comment
The term "Black Culture" is a lazy generalisation for a small minority of the black community and is potentially very harmful. By using this term you're suggesting indirectly that the entire black population are expected to behave in a certain way which is different to the way in which we percieve ourselves. A dangerous presumption which, if passed down the generations, will hinder progress in race relations for years to come.
And then there's the risk of the "Self fulfilling prophecy", where it is suggested in behavioural psychology that if you give someone a label for long enough, eventually they will conform to the expectations expected of them. Not a concept which I buy into 100% but certainly one with some grounding in psychological research.
Ditch cliches such as "black culture" now and let the events of November 4th be a starting point in breaking outdated and unfounded beliefs that we are all so different.
Every man and every woman is born an individual. Of course there are sub groups that can be loosely defined by sub cultures, but to group in such a narrow minded way breeds a "them and us" attitude which was prevailent throughout early U.S history. Surely we're more advanced than that now?
Apologies if I've bounced from one point to another, that's what happens when trying to rush a post when you're trying to disguise it as work
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#186 Icetayao:
"It is however ludicrous to suggest that someone who brought verve and dynamism to a flagging campaign could have been a drag to that same campaign. Palin rallied the republican base and she did her best to motivate an otherwise lukewarm base to rally around their flagbearer. To suggest that she was a drag because she did not appeal to the people that were not going to vote Republican irrespective, is self contradictory."
It would be if that is what people were suggesting but as so often Ice you are misrepresenting what posters have said. Palin certainly energized the base, though the fact that they had to be rallied to vote for their own candidate is a problem in itself, that's another discussion however.
The proposition is that as much as she rallied the base she alientated genuinely undecided voters who simply didn't want her anywhere near the Whitehouse.
You may disagree with the proposition but you could at least discuss it honestly.
Complain about this comment
195. At 2:47pm on 07 Nov 2008, robloop wrote:
Ref 142 GAIKASWORLD
I'd like to point out that the "black culture that justin refers too" is the black culture Bill Cosby, a black man and American, naturally, referred to. Hence Justin's question.
I think you over-simplify the problem of black poverty, particularly with reference to "world-wide poverty", in the process not placing some of the blame squarely where it lies.
The "centuries of world-wide poverty", in the African context, has been compounded for more than four decades by black Africans all on their own, depite many getting fine educations in Britain and the U.S. Billions of dollars of aid from Western
'white' countries have been poured into Africa, yet through its own special genius it continues to a be a poverty-striken, war-torn, mess, primarily through the corruption, greed and incompetence of useless leaders who have little interest in improving the lot of their own people while enriching themselves and funding extravagant life-styles. "
Yes its a mystery. Though when SOnny Abacha plundered Nigeria he placed his money in swiss banks!
When the King of Swaziland wished to give his wives a little something, he bought a fleet of Merceddes Benz!
And the guns and arms used everywhere from the Ivory coast to Somalia are made in CHina, the US, the UK etc!
And I am taking a punt but I would be willing to bet Robert Mugabe's suits and watches are not made in Harare
Seems like certain white westerners do very well out of "African corruption"
Doesn't it
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"190. At 2:06pm on 07 Nov 2008, icetayoa wrote:
THE PALIN QUESTION??
What question is that? It is extremely laughable when the MSM try to discredit and destroy the only flicker of hope in the rather inept campaign of the republicans. To understand where they are coming from, one must remember the maxim that POLITICS is WAR. In war the vanquished is disgraced and humiliated and its continued survival is usually at the whim of the victor. Politics is no different. The only slight difference is that unlike in war, what is at stake is IDEOLOGY. "
Not sure what this asinine rant actually means.
Politics is war? No, war is a continuation politics by other means is what Clausewitz wrote.
Perhaps learning the mxim is a good idea before quoting it?
Complain about this comment
18. At 8:15pm on 06 Nov 2008, exserviceman wrote:
Here is why, this is the real view of Obama's part of the political spectrum, neatly summed up by father Pflegger of Trinity Chicago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWigzBClEk8
I read the Bio of Obama's chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, at first I relaxed and saw a strong "Mid-western" theme emerging, then I looked at the end where it said Rep. of Chicago North side and my heart sank.
If Rahm was working for anyone else, or was president himself you could sleep safely at night.
Obama controls so many people through his Chicago red machine, and he must know every flaw of someone so close geographically. Infomation is power, so expecting Rahm to be truely independent of his master is a dream.
Well since Rahm is supposed to be Chief of Staff he is not actually supposed to be "independent" of his "master".
And the fact he was born and raised in Chicago does not actually automatically make him an inferior human being.
On balance he seems a well educated, intelligent choice.
Complain about this comment
29 Anglo Hawaiian
Good stuff.
Complain about this comment
205 nice analogy
Complain about this comment
COSBY
I much prefer Cosby over Obama.
I think questions would have really been understood and answered. None of this, "I believe strongly that {your cause here} is important and I will spend {insane amount here} by taxing the wealthy."
I do not think Cosby would have made totally inane promises to get elected.
The contributions Cosby has made socially and financially are real, long lasting, and transcend race, religion, wealth, and culture.
Socially, I have never seen anyone else of Cosby's stature personally involve himself at Cosby's level in getting people to take responsibility for themselves and their actions.
And, unlike Obama, Cosby makes you think (if you take the initiative).
---
OBAMA
Obama, on the other hand, is cut from a different cloth.
CNN has us believe Obama overcame hardship because his Mother woke him at 4:30 AM, every morning to learn English.
Obama is charming and has a smoker's, baritone voice. Add bass and echo, you get the sound bites on NPR.
Obama's chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, is as partisan as Hillary Clinton. Obama may not say, "Right Wing Conspiracy", but his staff's ring leader sure will.
We will probably see the return of James Carville as a "Minister of Propaganda"? Perhaps we will have another intern "stalking" the President to get her jollies.
So, will John Kerry become the Secretary of State? At least he will be able to surrender in French. (He is better suited to Secretary of Education so all of our children can learn to be aloof and pompous.)
You have another lawyer in office. Minced words, promises with exit clauses, and skills to skirt around the intent of law. "Pardon me" if I offend you.
In the spirit of Cosby, take time to really read the "9/11 Commission Report". It is dry. It is boring. It is greatly summarized by CNN and censored by Clinton (censored ABC) because you will really understand what neglect of the popular POTUS allowed to happen.
----
NEW VICTIMIZATION:
Look for victimization to transcend social, ethnic, and cultural boundaries. It will be sanctioned by the President, no less.
The new victims are those that take the initiative to learn, understand, try to be productive, actively serve their country, and pay their share of taxes.
The perpetrators are those "believers" who do not.
Don't believe me?
1) Try reading the "9/11 Commission Report" and sharing what you learn with a "believer" (or Bush hater)
2) Try to get ahead by hiring a "believer" as an employee to get a little more work done (and see who works for who)
3) Try to explain to a "believer" how much of your taxes go to pensions, social entitlements, interest payments, and "studies" that provide no value in return for your contribution.
4) To make yourself a victim of an concerted financial lynching, try to correct #3 above.
So, by our latest measure, 46% of our voters feel victimized.
-----
Yes, I would much prefer Cosby.
Complain about this comment
Ref 185 and 186 icetayoa
Very well put and right on target. I received similar treatment from the liberal/left for "vilifying" Obama, as I was accused. The 'tolerance' experienced was indeed a wonder to behold! An infantile response to my ligitimate criticism and consequently I remained unrepentant.
I considered Colin Powell's reasons for supporting Obama pitifully shallow, and again you summed up very well the probable reason for his conduct.
This election was indeed a "triumph of emotion over common sense", manipulated by a mostly disgraceful liberal media and driven by campaign funds McCain could only dream about. In the prevailing climate of hate, much of this irrational and quite stupid, it's amazing he did as well as he did with the popular vote, even if slaughtered in the Electoral College.
We will see how long smiles are broad, glasses are raised, and the cheering lasts.
Complain about this comment
190 ice head
you are a racist , accepted.
In my books that doesn't make you very smart.
Never met a nice or smart racist myself.
"To suggest that she was a drag because she did not appeal to the people that were not going to vote Republican irrespective, is self contradictory."
Well maybe the huge numbers of people that hated her including republicans (not those phoney party stealing racist republicans) passed you by.
Those , well I was for Mc Criminally insane right up till he picked Palin.
Hell I even knew a few redneck looking for a chance to vote Mc Cain who turned and hurled their opinion of her.
You should try moving to gherkinland.
Complain about this comment
Ref 200
"Remember the original question? - Is this the end of special pleading and the 'victim' identity?"
The original question referred to the preservation of the "victimhood" mentality, which the election of Obama clearly negates. Don't confuse the feeling of redemption that so many minorities feel in the USA with a desire to claim victimhood in the future.
Obama resounding victory represents a major step forward for our society, and I suspect most members of our minority groups realize that and rejoice on it. What I anticipate is a more unified nation working towards common goals, now that a major barrier has been removed and we all share responsibility for the future of our country.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#158. duhbuh: "I've been reading The Onion for years. The fact that David thought this was real has made my day."
I don't believe a word of that, since you wrote "For all the Obama disciples who have dominated Justin Webb's blog these past few weeks - this one's for you." You were taken in by what you viewed or you wouldn't have posted it or the later remark "No geomapgirl, it's slamming Obama supporters. And very effectively."
I'll bet you weren't aware of the (very heavy handed) "satire" until #70 Byungmoon mentioned the fact. You were right to be deceived though since the piece was not satirical in its true sense, more like a pastiche, in which the creator imitates the style of another. To the casual viewer, like myself, there was nothing to distinguish it from, as Coca Cola would say, "the real thing".
Complain about this comment
Ref 203 byungmoon
Why don't you address the original question posed by Justin instead of making silly comments and trying to put words in my mouth? I don't waste time with
"bitterness", was under the impression - now evidently erroneously - that within a democracy one is entitled to an opposing point of view, but typical of you and other Obama supporters any opposition to him invites infantile responses.
Funny how you liberal wets preach
'tolerance', but put to the test show yourselves remarkably intolerant. Now go and play fiddlesticks.
Complain about this comment
"that culture must now change"...what culture? It's a very simplistic look on a complex subject.
Is there a standard universal "culture" within the black community? Is there not a black middle class - as well as black working class? Do you lump all folks together - as if all have the same accent/attire/twang/walk/music-rap/way of thinking? and a sort of Ali G look?
our comments coming at the same time as Berlosconi, Ecclestone, in one week, is shocking. Better was expected of you.
Don't obsess about this.
Next we will be hearing "credit to his race" and all that BS.
As for President Obama, one thing that's probably different is that he didn't have the hereditary baggage of other black americans, he's been called "cocky" or "arrogant" but maybe, just maybe he grew up in an environment where he didn't have to relearn - in adulthood - that he was as good as the other guy. He was in an environment outside the mainland where he could just BE. And at 20+ yo, aspire to the highest role
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27460577#27460577
Compare the candidates. Even the GOP concedes the guy is more intelligent. Compare him to Palin/McCain/the less clever ones.
But, how much better he had to be to be on the same stage as them! And remain civil and pay tribute to his rivals as patriots - even as they went after him.
He had to run and downplay elements of self by pushing at his multi-racial aspect and the white grandmother element.
It's like Sidney Poitier's role in "Guess who's coming to dinner?" - his character has to be a 100 times better to get the girl's hand...but what does she bring to the table?
The president is one man in a drowning economy, the cabinet and much of the decision making is white. But it shouldn't matter.
Don't get too condescending/patronising? Don't lump a whole people together with simplistic generalizations. And it's not about a PC brigade.
Agree with much of what Cosby has had to say - but don't stretch the thing too far.
Complain about this comment
218. DominickVila wrote:
"Obama resounding victory represents a major step forward for our society, and I suspect most members of our minority groups realize that and rejoice on it."
===============
'minority groups' ?
When we take into account the changing demographics of the USA, how long will people cling onto the cherished idea that they have a special status because they are a 'minority' ?
For what it's worth I thought Obama was clearly the better man in this contest - it's a shame the issue is tainted by all this 21st Century inverse racism.
Complain about this comment
I have a suggestion that might drive off some of our more insane posters; a word count limit. If they couldn't post their long, tedious, rambling and never remotely substantiated rants maybe they would just go away? Probably a forlorn hope but maybe its worth a shot?
Complain about this comment
my oh my ...
Complain about this comment
icehead wait we went through this before once didn't we.
but when pressed you did not go near rthe topic of are you as a Nigerian a bias person to be talking about a Kenyan.
Is it your nationalism coming out, and are you really nigerian?
where was that. Marbles do you remember.
Complain about this comment
Bitter and angry "old" conservatives, the likes of neil_a2 and robloop.
After two centuries of black victimization, and then calling out to stop playing "victims card", now who's crying "victimhood" which to my knowledge couldn't have happened as Obama is not the president until Jan 20th 09?
Why so angry and bitter? (mind you, McC's angry and bitter image did not serve him all that well in the debates. And likewise, your arguments not all that persuasive).
Just like McC just didn't get it, neil_a2 and robloop who are so entrenched in old failed ideology just don't get it. Times are changing, I would like to tell those old timers. The change is in the air. That's why Obama won. The jury has reached the verdict. Step aside old timers. You are being swept away.
Complain about this comment
179
gherkin you find anyone that is not a rabid zionist very polarising .
Complain about this comment
221 that because we want you racists to understand what you are and how we do not have to give you the time of day while you are so bigoted .
Now if you were not speaking or writing like a party poster from the KKK or the BNP maybe your views would be treated with some respect.
Complain about this comment
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27460577#27405859
So because he won means everything's ok?
Had to be twice as good, spend lots more,was better educated, more articulate, saner, had to run a much better campaign.
The other guy flip-flopped/was uncertain at the time of the chaos; side not as clever/educated.
The economy cratered and people had no choice but to vote for Obama. The GOP was bankrupt of ideas.
Yet, does that mean life is milk and honey and all men are created equal? Of course not.
Yes, self help, getting an education, core values, blah blah are required, but don't overstate the case.
Is not as if the iniquities never existed - though we can get over them.
Complain about this comment
Funny how the intolerant expect the tolerant to tolerate their intolerance because they are tolerant, and are quick to point out the perceived hypocrisy if they don't.
Being tolerant doesn't mean agreeing with or liking everyone and their views, it just means allowing them to live as they see fit.
You want to be racist? Fine, just don't expect me to agree with it or miss any chance to point out how rediculous and harmful it is.
I wouldn't fire someone because he voted conservative in the next election, but likewise I wouldn't feel compelled to invite him round for beers and a chat about politics.
Complain about this comment
230/231 yes, sigh ...
Complain about this comment
There isn't a white culture and a black culture or any other separate culture unless you count Amazon tribes and suchlike. If that were so how could Obama be potus?
Complain about this comment
Posting:
194. At 2:39pm on 07 Nov 2008, dbithead wrote:
anglohawaiian on 29: Such eloquence and insight. The best post I have ever read.
Justin: You are a master at provoking the hubris of your audience. Great fun to read the responses even if much is repeated and tired rhetoric.
-------------------------------------
not really . there have been months of this racist trash being posted here.
justin I have called racist many times because I believe that is the case.
Not KKK racist but the indoctrinated racist.
An african american (and a white guy) gets elected to the presidency and all he can say is,while being too chicken to just say it himself, is
"well will those pesky whining blacks get over it and stop being so lazy"
the same thing DOUG , Gherkin, mostly erroneous,Meerkitten,JohnAAA,Ice for brains,and so many others have been saying.
"Blacks are lazy dole scroungers"
Justin why is it the mods will not post what I would have to say to you but allow you to carry on being a racist .
Complain about this comment
mods you let all this racist rubbish on here but are way too sensitive. If you do not want remarks about Justin 's racial bias try keeping him from continually proving it.
Complain about this comment
220. At 4:33pm on 07 Nov 2008, David_Cunard wrote:
#158. duhbuh: "I've been reading The Onion for years. The fact that David thought this was real has made my day."
I don't believe a word of that...
For you David - here's a photo I've just taken of my well-thumbed copy of The Onion's "Our Dumb Century" alongside today's edition of The Spectator. I don't expect an apology but please refrain from implying that I'm a liar.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
robloop
It does not convince me that your comments are not related to emotions that you might be going through in the aftermath of McC/Palin defeat. Bitterness is an observation based on your comments and no words are put into your mouth. You said them, and you project an image of bitterness. Tolerance? Nothing I said reflect intolerance, but it just reflects disagreement. Your arguments are based on raw angry emotion and that's why they not persuasive. eg "Now go and play fiddlesticks." is an angry response.
Facts. Black "victimization". I lived in Old Kent Road, east London, close to Elephant and Castle in a Council House, went to William Penn Secondary School in East Dulwich. One of the poorest areas of Britain and worst performing school in the country (the school was closed down and reopened, only accepting kids from the rich most white local neighborhood of East Dulwich). My family and I lived next door to a lot of the black folks. And I went to school with them (William Penn School was over 50% black). Here I think I need to reveal a bit of my own identity. I am not black as the name suggests. I am South Korean and so "black victimization" stuff doesn't apply to me. My ancestors weren't enslaved by whites (My country was briefly annexed by the Japanese but I personally hold no grudges against them.) My view comes from seeing with my own eyes what was happening around me.
What I know as a kid going to schools with those black kids is that those kids didn't play "victims card" and point finger of blame on racism. They WERE the victims. They didn't get a good education. They were poor. Not many doors were open to them. Most didn't get very far. These are facts; the kids were dealt a very bad set of cards.
Fact. Supposedly all knowing white middle class man telling black folks that they are lazy and telling them to stop playing victim card is patronizing. The truth is on average, white folks have it easier.
Obama victory? Utterly remarkable. Although he didn't have the same kind of difficulties as the kids I grew up with, he faced more challenges than white by virtue of being black. It gives hope to all the black and other non-white kids that all things are indeed possible in America.
Complain about this comment
To #45, KingRadish
You wrote "If you want to understand just how much working class communities like that WEREN'T racist, read about Dr Victor St Clair Lucas at http://www.boltonrevisited.org.uk"
Wasn't able to access your site, but that wasn't my memory of the Durham coalminers when doing research for the BBC in the late sixties. The way they talked about 'the black man cometh' made my bones judder.
Complain about this comment
Schadenfreude? You betchya!
But now he's bankrupt! Yippeeeee!Peace and Justice
ed
Complain about this comment
Guns, guns, guns!...
Boom! Boom!Peace and catapults
ed
Complain about this comment
238 byungmoon
well said.
Justin , your link to another white person saying "blacks "VICTIMHOOD""
they were never victims right?
That is the implication in putting quotation marks.
Two fingers on each hand waving as you discuss "victimhood" with your other white friends.
Disgusting.
PS who did you vote for?
Complain about this comment
240 ED LOL. ROFLOL
Complain about this comment
#215 quote:
NEW VICTIMIZATION:
Look for victimization to transcend social, ethnic, and cultural boundaries. It will be sanctioned by the President, no less.
The new victims are those that take the initiative to learn, understand, try to be productive, actively serve their country, and pay their share of taxes.
The perpetrators are those "believers" who do not.
Etc., etc., etc.
======================
Here you have it folks. Talk about a "culture" of victimization. Their slogan: "NO WE CAN'T."
We will hear this a lot over the next few years. Heck, I may even grow nostalgic for Farakhan. At least he had something to complain about.
Red blooded, hard working, God fearing, tax paying, right thinking, heterosexual Americans unite!! You have nothing to lose but your chains!
Comrade Canadian Pinko
Complain about this comment
241 now if they all buy american that will help the economy.:)
I always find it funny that an arsnal in the home is needed before health care etc.
No taxes for paying for schools , just rely on gambling money from the lottery , because we want Guns.
Broke people rushing to get whatever they think will be banned.
Hell better go get me a coupele of pounds now with that money I was planning to invest in my business.
Guns before Copper bar stock
Complain about this comment
More schadenfreude
"Pop!" goes the Weasel!(with a Vegas connection)
Peace and schadenfreude
ed
Complain about this comment
It is not a question of whether victimhood is deserved or not, but surely that psychologically taking the state of victimhood on board and making it our lifestyle is in itself circular and self-destructive.
Of course there is poverty and suffering and oppression everywhere, but the extent to which we elect to make those things the window through which we relate to the world is the degree to which we make ourselves unhappy.
Complain about this comment
Justin
I thought you were an Obama man however you seem to have changed your tune and are now an Obamasceptic.. What happened dude?
Seriously, given Brown is now pulling the UK out of Iraq can we expect O to do the same or will he hang on in there to "manage" the transition?
And also, what about Afghanistan? Does this imply an endless series of regional conferences involving all the people W would never talk to?
Finally, will O be protectionist? If so, what form will this take?
Even O can't do everything after all.. or can he? Which brings me back to my first question..
Concerned of London
Complain about this comment
Jack,
We get our copper at scrap prices (hard drawn copper wire from taken down overhead electric lines) Far cheaper than new bar stock...
Peace and recycling
ed
Complain about this comment
Strange, this observation, Justin! Do you mean to say that the trouble with the US government's response to Hurricane Katrina was that the African Americans in New Orleans wallowed in 'victimhood'? That their President W was off mountain biking while his fellow citizens were drowning, stuck on rooftops and deprived of food in that 'shelter' shouldn't have made them think they were victims! Of course not! They should have been filled with shame at their victim culture. Silly, silly them! It is all this negative thinking that go them into trouble. Oh yeah.
Complain about this comment
249
Ah they would be some might small frogs made from that.
Ah the price of all my materials has dropped huge, thanks to the collapse of the world economy. time to buy more.:)
I got some 1 1/4 inch square bar real cheap the other day as the big boys steel yard shut down sales.
8 ft that's quite a few frogs.
Yeeeehhaarr ride that collapse wave.
Wooooppeeee.
Pieces of recycling
Complain about this comment
248 sorry to tell you but Justin has been in the tank for Mc Cain.
And it seems he has as much racial sensitivity as Palin.
Complain about this comment
240 - Ed and Middle East
On this Veterans / Armistice Day Nov. 11th let's take a moment to remember the killed and wounded sailors of the USS Liberty and compare their fate to the Teheran embassy hostages. Our best "friends" are never so perfectly good that they cannot make a terribly tragic mistake, or do better now working for peace; and our worst "enemies" are not all perfectly evil.
On topic, I can't believe the amount of intolerance posted here, apparently coming from many quarters. The world still seems awash with stereotyping, prejudice, blind nationalism...
While our president elect represents a great step forward along the lines of Ghandi or Mandela (less of an epic leap, in the context of pluralistic America, than those two were in history) his election did not just magically end either hateful or subtle prejudice, or bitter poverty.
Complain about this comment
No Victim here ”
HmmmmPeace and Family values
ed
Complain about this comment
Jack,
Once we got a bunch of Anode copper (as scrap) which was in the form of 40mm spheres (flowable, I suppose). They made interesting raised bowls...
Our friendly scrapyard sells us the stuff at the same rate as if we were buying in 40 tonne truckloads. They like dealing with 'artists' and take a 'proprietary' interest (which we do little to discourage)
Peace and scavenging
ed
Complain about this comment
255
wow wish our scrappy was so well stocked.
We to have one that does like to help.
I get a screaming deal on cold rolled bar.
But those scrap bins at many places were out of bounds while scrap was so high.
Not so now, back to the "give you a tenner for a butchers at your scrap bin"
not that they understand me.
Complain about this comment
I had contemplated following Rodney Kings advice of "can't we all just get along" quote following the riots triggered by his brutalisation by racist LA police in the 1990's. Fast forward a decade and there's still the Jena 6 scandal and the Sean Bell murder by NYPD but still I kept silent, because I was sure that in time progress would be made. And that progress did come, on Nov 4th in the shape of Obama. But after reading the postings on this blog and others in the lead up to the election its quite clear there remains fruit cakes and racism deniers are who would diminish any chance to improve race relations especially in the states. The latter type, for many reasons, are of grave concern for anyone who wants progressive politics and a more harmonious understanding of racial identity in the US.
Exserviceman- your a bit fruity for sure, but harmless nonetheless! Icetayoa, now your a different kettle of fish all together. I cringed at your comments "I was once called a racist and redneck for pointing out Obama?s inadequacies. Though I am a Black African ( Nigerian ) I almost became duty-bound by these hate spewing, name calling bloggers into being ashamed of my legitimate criticism of Obama?s record and character"
You're officailly a race hate denier in my eyes, one almost blinded through self evident ignorance of the both implicit and explicit nature of racism that you can't see the wood for the trees. Your repeated attempts to mask, or dare I say justify, your ignorance by trying to play the race card (I'm black african, nigerian) would be hilarious if it weren't contemptible. Next you'll be telling us how you've expericienced racism first hand and it never did you any harm, you soldier you.
A simple set of questions on this election in the melting pot democracy that is the USA. When you saw a McCain/Palin rally, what racial mix did you see? When you saw an Obama/Biden rally, racially what did you notice about the crowd? How do you account for the differences if any?
Sometimes simple things are simple Icetayoa; try working it out.
Complain about this comment
#240. Ed Iglehart: "Sheldon Adelson . . .But now he's bankrupt! Yippeeeee!"
His company may be, but not him; I'll bet he still has more than enough to spread around.
Complain about this comment
President-Elect Obama has just given his first press conference - and yet this BBC website remains stuck in the groove of a
conversation which is going nowhere.
Complain about this comment
Ed,.. this was good, just another way to describe jacksforge... lol,.. just kiddin' jack.
Thats just like saying 'three men can keep a secret,.. as long as two are dead' B.Franklin.. works, unless one knew how to write or record,.. but now I come to your next little deal.
About the bilionaire gone broke and the accolades you seem to have for that. "My friend" , to quote McCain, I've never worked for a poor guy, and with the collapse of his corporation, he will still be a billionaire,..
The suffering,...
Just those whose lives circle his success will suffer,.. from the construction worker to the dishwasher, the children and wife of those and the parents they also help support. And evidently he spred his wealth and employed(and paid) help arround the world
The rich Asian gambler and 007 english wannabes will still play games elsewhere,.. oh, all is okay as long as one "American Republican" suffers a loss.
I don't get it, I respect you all as better than myself in education and opportunity taken, but the bigotry against us Americans that work for ourselves or others for a living are to be ridiculed if we succeed, patronised while on top for what you may gain, and mocked when chances taken hurt.
I built casinos in Nevada as a Union Carpenter, great insurance and pay, my wife and children all benifited by this mans investments greatly. He does not deserve your joy at the expense of my union brother (of all races) and all the children and parents that depend on his success.
240. At 6:13pm on 07 Nov 2008, Ed Iglehart wrote:
Schadenfreude? You betchya
Complain about this comment
80%,
And very 'Presidential' he was, indeed, for a 'mutt', cool, careful, but not cold.
Peace and a cool hand
ed
Complain about this comment
# 260 David C.
I'm afraid he won't be spreading it around. His creditors will lose out but he'll be looking after his own. I doubt he will lose out on any comforts.
Complain about this comment
#261
Ed - agreed - presidential, articulate, understanding - everything we hoped.
Good man. Good week.
Complain about this comment
#236. duhbuh: "For you David - here's a a photo I've just taken of my well-thumbed copy of The Onion's "Our Dumb Century" alongside today's edition of The Spectator. I don't expect an apology but please refrain from implying that I'm a liar."
One well-thumbed copy does not add up to "I've been reading The Onion for years." I still don't believe you've been a reader "for years" - and you couldn't possibly have watched The Onion News Network for that long because it wasn't launched until March 2007.
Since you appear to be based in Britain, where The Spectator is published and sold, then I fail to see why you would consider that Mr Obama unsuited to the Presidency of the United States. Your disapproval of him is well documented on this blog. Even The Daily Telegraph, owned by the proprietors of The Spectator, do not raise the same objections as yourself. You make The Daily Mail seem akin to The Mirror.
Complain about this comment
#Nick-Gotts
You clearly haven't looked at the context of my riposte that you responded to. I don't need to be told of the brilliance of Barack and his Ivy league education etc. and the shortcomings of the Republicans as being an integral part of why he won on Tuesday. I've been extoling his virtues for the last nine months when people didn't even know who he was.
Complain about this comment
250. At 6:52pm on 07 Nov 2008, Juno19 wrote:
"Strange, this observation, Justin! Do you mean to say that the trouble with the US government's response to Hurricane Katrina was that the African Americans in New Orleans wallowed in 'victimhood'? That their President W was off mountain biking while his fellow citizens were drowning, stuck on rooftops and deprived of food in that 'shelter' shouldn't have made them think they were victims"!
If you need anymore evidence of the absolute apathy of the Bush administration, just look at his mother; "Barbara Bush To Katrina Victims: "So Many Of The People In The Arena... Were Underprivileged Anyway, So This Is Working Very Well For Them"... Maybe this isn't racist but, it shows the ABSOLUTE disconnect our current administration has (apparently in their bloodline) for under privileged people (who happened to be mostly black in the case of Katrina). Yah... we don't have a problem here in America. Thank God John McCain didn't win.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2005/09/05/barbara-bush-to-katrina-v_n_6895.html
Complain about this comment
"I would be VERY careful how you phrase it and look at it."
Yes. I might hazard to state the following opinion (as someone who has never faced prejudice).
History isn't wiped out by one event. People in Russia today are still paying the price for the suffering that went on when the Golden Horde went through. Abused children become abusive parents, and the cycle may go on for 5, 10 or 50 generations.
People of color are still suffering because their great great grandparents were slaves, not to mention their grandparents being unable to vote.
And yet, of course, individuals of any race can achieve great things. Most would agree that people who have been victimized in some sense are precisely the ones who need most to avoid thinking of themselves as victims.
Complain about this comment
A reality check:
I was born to two loving parents with advanced degrees from Ivy League institutions.
Another child was born to one illiterate drug addict.
Who do you think is going to do better in this world?
The fact is, some children born to illiterate drug addicts DO achieve great things.
But the smart money don't bet that way.
It's fair to say that racial prejudice is a secondary, rather than a primary cause of trauma. I could be African American and describe myself as I did. Race isn't the point.
Children of any color being born behind the eight ball is the point.
Good citizens would do what they can to help children born into circumstances you know are likely to lead them into trouble.
The US mostly finds them convenient fodder for its incarceration culture.
Complain about this comment
238. Thank you Byungmoon.
"These are facts; the kids were dealt a very bad set of cards."
People can and do predict children's success according to their parents' success or lack of it. It's the usual bell curve. There are outlyers, but everyone's success correlates very well with the advantages they were born into.
W. and many I went to school with fit the definition of "born on third base and act like they hit a triple."
Children borne into traumatic circumstances don't need a helping hand. They need a series of well-coordinated and effective helping hands, and they need them EARLY.
As a general rule they get them too little and too late, and everyone pays a price for what amounts to this criminal oversight.
The proportion of them that have dark skin is a distractor. It really has nothing to do with anything.
Complain about this comment
267. At 9:14pm on 07 Nov 2008, RedWhiteandermblue
Really? RWander'm'B?.. I'll bite. In 1972 I graduated HS and my Dadd employeed good black men that raised families and attended church, tythed and supported themselves, and if needed, a neighbor or two. That above statement is so wrong.
The Republicans nor the Democrats brought 'Rap' music ad the 'dis'respect of white imperilism,.. the commies did.
Vietnam and the planned desire for "Chaos" in the united states by the commies. It is no accident that the 'divided' American came into being,.. the race card is being played on "US" by those that wish to divide and conquer,.. and ....................
never mind, bad ignorant white man.. that includess the European white as well. To listen to ya'll talk, racism is a U.S. thing,.. but it is alive and well deep in the european mind.
what is the real human plan, what is 'it' we desire,.. we desire to "rule" the lessor among ourselves for the betterment of OURSELVES.... slavery is alive and well and is colorblind. What is slavery, Evil incarnate.
Complain about this comment
268. At 9:19pm on 07 Nov 2008, RedWhiteandermblue w
"It's fair to say that racial prejudice is a secondary, rather than a primary cause of trauma. I could be African American and describe myself as I did. Race isn't the point."
Well said. Apologies, I ramble ona t times but the point is 'race' isn't the problem, just what 'they' the communist want you to see it as.
Complain about this comment
The gays aren't happy , huh? Just what does "GAY" mean if not querly happy?
Ah heck, could of resisted, but this close to losing the election I couldn't resist, got to slam someone,... right?
Bah, could care less, I'm a Christrian and all I know I don't get to judge, God does, so let them marry already. We'll have it sorted out by the guy that does that stuff. Don't know Jesus??? Neither does anyone else, but those whom lives he has touched we tell you that they are not just,............... anyone.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Ref 223
"'minority groups' ?
When we take into account the changing demographics of the USA, how long will people cling onto the cherished idea that they have a special status because they are a 'minority' ?"
Unfortunately, our government insists on categorizing people by race to track demographic changes for social and legal reasons. Considering the tremendous progress achieved during the past four decades I think it is time to lump all of us into one category: AMERICAN.
As of today, however, the term "minority" with all its implications includes African-Americans (12% of our population), Hispanics (18% of our population, excluding "illegals"), Native Americans, Asians, and Pacific Islanders. All together, these groups constitute almost half of the population of the USA, a fact that suggests the need to discontinue what I regard as a divisive and unnecessary practice.
Don't confuse the euphoria that so many Americans feel about the election of President-elect Obama, with an endorsement of existing "racial profiles".
Most importantly, bear in mind that many of us voted for Obama because we favored his policies and admire his personal attributes, not because of his ethnicity which to many of us is irrelevant.
Complain about this comment
ref #266
First could you get a better reference than the hate sight by the phony Arina Huffington?
Second, I'm not absolving Bush, but the main villians were Ray Nagin the Mayor of NO and Kathleen Blanco the then Gov of Louisana.
Missispi and alabama who were also hard hit had better people in charge.
Complain about this comment
ref #202
So now you can't criticize the Obamas?
Most people in this country have contributed to the country than the phony Michelle.
And yes I am one of that majority.
Let's hope a muzzle is put on her so she doesn't creat an international incident.
Remember we did not elect her!!
Complain about this comment
160, ubermensch.
"So you excuse Michelle Obama's hatread because she is black?"
Hatred is your word, not mine. You always try to win points by misquoting or implying something that someone has not said. What I did say was that you could not understand Michelle Obama because you were not black. (And your attitudes suggest that you have not spent much time with blacks on an intimate basis.)
Complain about this comment
Victimhood will not end so long as each black family continues to begin indoctrination at birth. They have to stop telling their children that they are victims, were slaves, can't win, etc. You cannot tell a child they are crap, not valued in society, and expect them to have the confidence required to succeed. If they don't stop the cycle, it will continue to trap them in poverty and mediocrity throughout their communities. Bill Cosby has the right idea... they need to teach their children that they are GREAT, CAPABLE, TALENTED, etc.
In addition, they must move out of the inner city gheto. I cannot understand why they insist on living in area that offer no jobs of substance other than the crack dealer position on the corner.
Complain about this comment
12, jon.
"Can Obama, who has so ruthlessly mobilised the racial vote, now refuse to deliver the payback?"
I would say "successfully" not "ruthlessly." Your choice of word says a lot about your attitude. And as for payback, there is none in the sense that you mean it. Simply being president is payback. He gives hope and dignity to those who would hang back in the shadows. That is payback enough.
If what you are suggesting by payback is that he will villify whites, or appoint only blacks to high positions, or make a case for blacks against whites, you have no understanding of what has happened in this election. The wonder of it has eluded you.
Complain about this comment
"First could you get a better reference than the hate sight by the phony Arina Huffington?"
You mean something fair and balanced like FOX of course Magickirin? Or have you gone off them since they suggested that Sara Palin was less than an asset on the campaign?
Complain about this comment
179, ubermensch.
You repeat lies as fact. That is a Rove technique. McCain used it and it destroyed him. You apparently know that the internet exists, unlike McCain, but I guess the trickery is so beguiling that you can't let go.
Complain about this comment
#276 Magickirin:
"So now you can't criticize the Obamas?
Most people in this country have contributed to the country than the phony Michelle.
And yes I am one of that majority.
Let's hope a muzzle is put on her so she doesn't creat an international incident.
Remember we did not elect her!!"
Funny how that last fact never stopped you criticizing her during the election but its one rule for Magickirin and another for everyone else right? Even by your usual standards this was pathetic Magic.
Complain about this comment
ref #280
First I was never for Salin Palin, and the reports are from people covering their butts?
Do you really believe that she did not know Africa was a continent.
Fox News is a leading news source, the Huffington Post is a blog.
Complain about this comment
ref #281
Actually the chief liar in this election was David Axelrod who played the race card for all it's worth.
It too bad you are intolerant of differing oppinions.
But you have proven intolerant of conservatives, moderates, jews and anyone who criticizes the Obamas or Palestinian terrorists.
Complain about this comment
#272. DougTexan: "The gays aren't happy . . . Bah, could care less, I'm a Christrian and all I know I don't get to judge, God does, so let them marry already. We'll have it sorted out by the guy that does that stuff. Don't know Jesus???"
As a matter of fact, we do know what Jesus said about gays - nothing. When you can find something to the contrary said by him, post it, because all Christianity wants to know. The ball's in your court.
Complain about this comment
#202. SamTyler1969: "I am upset she doesn't spend more time advocating for fat bald middle aged rich white guys, but on the other hand we will probably survive."
You have dashed our mental image of you! Fat, bald, middle aged - you can't help the last but there is no need for the first; Gluttony is one of the Seven Deadly Sins. I'm surprised G+R hasn't chastised you for that!
Complain about this comment
Ref 275
"Missispi and alabama who were also hard hit had better people in charge."
Hurricane Katrina hit South Florida pretty hard before moving towards Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia. The President is responsible for preventive actions when a known and impending disaster is forecasted in advance and expected to impact multiple states.
The reason the effect of that natural disaster was so severe in New Orleans was because their inadequate levies breached, after Katrina had passed by, and the city was innundated. Damage in other states and cities was minimal in comparison as it was limited to the effects of high winds and localized flooding.
There is plenty of blame to be cast because of the inadequate precautions taken before the hurricane hit land, and also because of the dismal response during and after that disaster.
Complain about this comment
As a Democrat, and an Obama supporter, I am delighted by the level of intolerance and outright hatred that is evident in the comments made by some Republicans on this and other blogs. Their McCarthy-era mentality and religious fanatism guarantees the GOP may decline to the point of irrelevance for years to come.
I would not be surprised if tens of thousands of moderate Republicans become Independents and let the cold-war nuts and the fundamentalists fend for themselves in whatever is left of the Jurassic Old Party.
Complain about this comment
275 MagicKirin wrote:
"First could you get a better reference than the hate sight [sic] by the phony Arina [sic] Huffington?
At 276 "Most people in this country have contributed to the country [sic] than the phony Michelle."
Perhaps I could provide a generic Kirin posting so he can stop boring us with the real ones.
A Kirin posting will generally be as follows:
- it will be so illiterate there will be a rough average of one wrongly spelled word per line
- it will express considerable hatred, but will often demonstrate this by hypocritically calling others 'phonies', 'haters', 'hate mongers', 'hate 'sights'' [sic] etc.
- in it, these hateful insults will be directed particularly [though not exclusively] at African Americans and/or Africans and/or Democrats
- it will demonstrate that, to him, 'to hate' means 'to dare criticise in any way , for example, GW Bush and/or the State of Israel'
- it will contain no evidence except Kirin's befuddled prejudices. [if anyone questions his biases and falsehoods, he generally either ignores them or directs them to go and find the evidence themselves.
And like that ol' energiser bunny, he just keeps going - but with slightly less self knowledge or analytical capacity
Complain about this comment
#283 Magickirin:
"Do you really believe that she did not know Africa was a continent.
Fox News is a leading news source, the Huffington Post is a blog."
As to your question, yes given her general ignorance level its seems perfectly plausible. As to the latter comment, well it sums you up really.
Complain about this comment
#283. MagicKirin: "Fox News is a leading news source"
Then the information about Mrs Palin's ignorance must be true, since it was Fox News which brought us the story. Or perhaps you don't always believe what Fox has to say?
Complain about this comment
284, ubermensch.
"But you have proven intolerant of conservatives, moderates, jews and anyone who criticizes the Obamas or Palestinian terrorists."
Ah, pulling the Jewish card again. Or should I call that the victimization card. HaHaHa. You are so transparent, you are pitiful.
Complain about this comment
What's that smell?
Peace nd questionsed
Complain about this comment
287, Dominick.
In reference to Katrina, the people were told to evacuate and didn't. As to the response, yes, it was inadequate, but can anyone be prepared for an unprecedented natural disaster?
The response to the Twin Towers was inadequate as well. Those in the buildings were told to remain. When the firemen were to told to leave, they didn't. The radios didn't work properly. How can one really be prepared for an event of that nature?
Complain about this comment
There are two types of conservatives that I see. Intellectual and intellectually incurious.
Sarah belongs to the latter and Kathleen Parker belongs to the former, just to give some example. Within the intellectual lot there are the honest intellectual conservative (again Parker, let me add David Brook here too for famous quote "Sarah=fatal cancer to the republican party") and dishonest ones who were self-deluding themselves that blatant anti-intellectualism demonstrated by Sarah will win them the election (Leslie Sanchez of CNN for example... maybe).
Then there are an intellectually incurious lot who just spews out incoherent, illogical republican talking points (election is over so there is no need for that now. so spare us). Sarah was obviously the best example. MigicKirin is another one of those.
Complain about this comment
#158 - No geomapgirl, it's slamming Obama supporters. And very effectively.
It must be very well-written, then, because obviously it can be read either way.
Complain about this comment
Oh let me remind you, MigicKirin get all his information from the Fox News, the most balanced news network in US.
"Fox News is a leading news source" - MigicKirin
Complain about this comment
#142 - The white racist calls out the black man for his sins whilst denying him real opportunity to change or indeed really be any other way , the black victim plays his part giving the white racist all the proof he needs to justify his behavior to himself and the black unhappily man accepts his lot.
Thank you, GAIKASWORLD, for the crash course on victimization in black culture. Very clear and understandable, and in the context you describe, I can see how and why this kind of victimization could be put to rest by Obama's election; it does not require an end to racism, simply an altered vantage point from within the black community.
For anyone who missed this, please see GAIKASWORLD's post at 142 above. It's very long, so could have gotten skipped over if you dislike reading long posts or if you were busily tracking an ongoing conversation.
Complain about this comment
259 eightypercent wrote:
"President-Elect Obama has just given his first press conference - and yet this BBC website remains stuck in the groove of a
conversation which is going nowhere."
Well, it does rather demonstrate that there may be more than one 'culture' (of thought and attitude, even of economics) that needs to change.
Complain about this comment
#274 Dominick
Maybe you have a key to the problems here. If we started addressing socioeconomic problems, regardless of race or ethnicity, perhaps then racism and discrimination problems would diminish as well.
So have we had the cart before the horse?
Complain about this comment
http://change.gov/
It's been 8 years since our president has given a crap about this country and about the people living in it. Oh yah, new presidential order come January 20th 2009; we will starting governing under the constitution again. Remember that really unimportant document?
Complain about this comment
From the first reponse , "Obama disciples who have dominated Justin Webb's blog these past few weeks", to GAIKASWORLD #142, one can surmise that as the peak has been reached, the door flung open, the veil lifted...
You are no longer the victim of yesterday. "It is what it is" is the current saying. I predict the impact of the next four years will be for all to realize they are are responsible for their future, and realize the key to their success is not their goverment, but their convictions and courage to follow through as was demonstrated by Barrack Obama. I commend him for his great achievment! Who knows, you may even find yourself as a conservative who wants the government to not tell you what you can"t accomplish...
Complain about this comment
Yo Brit-ish,... my friend,.. it is going no where because it can't. Obamas first news conference is no more than that,.. him saying he can't,... won't do any of what his campaign has led his followers believe.
There is no miracle of the messiah coming,.. he is Chicago Politician from the get go,.. just more polished and stage viable... better actor if you will.
Hollywood selling us movies not worth watching, a series of commercials ever so more enticing as to make not seeing the movie is unbearable,.. such intense noise and build up,... such desire,.. then there it is... Kung Foo Panda!!!!!
pooh..
Such is change for/to fools,.. and we, the republicans and democrats alike have been played for fools that we are. World wide marketing and advertising, the making us want what we don't need, and the desire to buy it at any cost.. from IPOD to Play Station, Sega, Atari and cell phone upgrade mania, when all we want is a 'diversion' and a portable 'phone',... to talk, not text.
Where is it we want to go from here is the meat of this blog, if we are to have any meat. Affordable medical that is competent and viable,... real food for thought and an education system without limits on, where of when, or what of why, the idea is to learn,... the realization that some are meant to be mechanics or carpenters.... and damn good at it... and they are no less valuable than anyone else in status or earnings.
Why should the man that builds the dream have any less profit from the same dream, when it is his life that is traded for it? Is the money the investor places in the project allow him ninety percent of the profit on an unfair means of measuring risk?
Define justice in twenty words or less... the lawyer or the court typist, the bailiff or the officer. What each of us does in this society must be equal, for to divide the rich with a [phd] or the name of doctor behind the name is a false reading,.. the farmer that put food on the plate is just as valuable as the doctor that saves the farmers daughter, to have a son, that is a policeman,..
...in hospital built by the carpenter with material from the factory or plant, served food by the immigrant with hope in his heart.. for his daughter that is yet to be born, who will be mother to the child that will end all inequality...
..that will see we are the 'body' of man.. where the ass is just as important as the heart, that is worthless with out food or blood.
It is not the politics that are wrong, it is 'us' that are being fooled into our own self destruction by our insane desire for a power that is fleeting,.. a life that is wanting, for a value placed on paper with no joy or care,.. to die alone in a place where the body of man is in denial.
Complain about this comment
#303, DT, that's very Pauline, in a rather homespun
way.
But, as JFK once said, "Life is not fair."
Complain about this comment
303, Doug.
"There is no miracle of the messiah coming,.. he is Chicago Politician from the get go,.. just more polished and stage viable... better actor if you will."
What you say is true. It is also true that to rise in poltics you have to make alliances because you need the support. But often, when you finally have the power in your hands, there is a transformation. We saw this with Harry Truman who was part of the infamous Pendergast machine. Yet Truman was an innately honest man and made an outstanding president.
Obama as president outranks Chicago and is no longer subject to their politics. We have given him our votes in the belief that he will use his power well.
Complain about this comment
AMERICA! You can no longer hide under the banner of circumstance! You will be judged by " the content of YOUR charachter",
John 8 comes to mind.. but you mind find mercy offensive...
Complain about this comment
302. At 05:35am on 08 Nov 2008, BraunSA wrote:
From the first reponse , "Obama disciples who have dominated Justin Webb's blog these past few weeks",
We are not so different you and I... we will see the passers leave in droves and some post never top one hundred once again.
Your realization that.. "It is what it is" is the new mantra, and that the force of change falls not on government, but people... we will now see if the importance put upon it will warrant the call for 'community organising' into service for the people..
.. how many know he wants fifty hours from students under age of fifteen, hundred hours yearly from college students, and a life time in the form of Marxist clubs and requirements.
I fear we didn't take the giant step forward, but a hugh step sideways into indentured service and controlled society,.. placed restrictions and requirements,.. not freedoms from those in power over us.
The help given the masses as in the past was because it is our desire,... not because it was the mandate.
Complain about this comment
Good night all, got to love the internet. Thanks Msmarbles and GnR, though I'll have to look up Pauline.... your opinions I welcome
Complain about this comment
allymarbels #305
"We have given him our votes in the belief that he will use his power well.:
So the paradox of this election, will be that I have been accused of "clinging to guns and religion", and the acuser possess' the first to take the latter...
Complain about this comment
DT, that's Paul, as in the New Testament.
Complain about this comment
309. Braun.
"So the paradox of this election, will be that I have been accused of "clinging to guns and religion", and the acuser possess' the first to take the latter..."
You will never get it straight. The nonreligious do not want to take your religion from you. We don't care what you believe. But you, the religious zealots, would force your religion upon us through legislation. You are bullies; we are not.
Complain about this comment
BraunSA, Ms. Marbles, if you go look at DT's
blog "dougtexan.blogspot.com", I made a post
which explains some things which the world cannot
see.
It may give some comfort to you.
Complain about this comment
#286
David,
I have low self esteem.
Depressed Sam
Complain about this comment
#286, David_C, gluttony is only possible in the
absence of good beer.
Complain about this comment
313, Sam.
You are out-of-step with the times. Fat is out. Skinny is in. Keep your eyes open for the Obama Organic Diet Plan (which includes organic cigarettes).
Complain about this comment
274. DominickVila wrote:
Ref 223
"'minority groups...
Considering the tremendous progress achieved during the past four decades I think it is time to lump all of us into one category: AMERICAN."
===============
Totally with you on that one Dominick.
Complain about this comment
#315, Ms. Marbles, doesn't one gain weight after
quitting smoking? (and, I'll bet those organic
cigarettes really contain oregano.)
Complain about this comment
# 313 - you disguise it well
Complain about this comment
john-In-Dublin # 289.
Just to wish you a speedy recovery after you read and then quoted Magics' #275.
Some comments can be particularly obnoxious but to become sic four times while writing the response is an extreme reaction.
Hoping to read you are in good heath later today.
Complain about this comment
317, guns.
They say you gain about 20 pounds when you stop smoking. That would be about right for my husband and one of my daughters. I have known people who didn't gain weight when they stopped smoking. I reduced my smoking by half and haven't gained an ounce. Obama is an on-again, off-again smoker.
Complain about this comment
316, jon.
I agree with you. Children born in this century won't care at all about color. They will find something else to hate.
Complain about this comment
# 303
"Where is it we want to go from here is the meat of this blog, if we are to have any meat.
Affordable medical that is competent and viable,...
real food for thought and an education system without limits on, where of when, or what of why, the idea is to learn,... the realization that some are meant to be mechanics or carpenters.... and damn good at it...
and they are no less valuable than anyone else in status or earnings..."
[The topics are good, the reasoning inonsistent]
Complain about this comment
319, Waterman.
Where would we be without Magic (aka ubermensch)? We need him to keep the adrenalin flowing. Now I will twist the knife in him:
Ubermensch, The best thing about McCain losing is that Joe Lieberman, the weasel, goes down with him. He is a bigoted warmonger and his day, along with Bush's, is done.
Complain about this comment
If there was any evidence that black culture is not a monolithic block and that it contains contradictory philosophies, bear in mind that proposition 8 was passed in part because large numbers of African Americans voted for it. So while voting for a liberal candidate, at the same time (in California) they defeated a liberal proposition. Life is complex. While an African American community exists, to imagine that they all think the same, or have the same cultural mores is probably prejudicial in itself.
Thanks to those who responded to Magic, I could'n't be bothered.
I do not think that Obama would have had any chance of winning this election, if he had appeared to have played the race card. The discussion above is interesting because as far as I am aware it was completely absent from the campaign. Without heavy support from the latino community, and majority support from the white (more females than males but roughly 50 percent), he would not have one. So he truly appealed to all sections of the electorate.
As far as 'victimization' goes, I think it was in decline anyway. Those politicians who cultivated it are on their way out (Jackson, Sharpton et al). It was never helpful and always divisive. While Obama's election does not end racism (how could it), it does truly show that no position in the land is beyond reach, no matter what your background. I would agree with Dominick that socio-economic conditions and education are the crucial tools in enabling poor communities (of all races) to feel that they are connected with mainstream american culture, and not consigned to the dustbin as losers. Out of poverty does ignorance and intolerance grow.
I don't know what the status of affirmitive action programs is currently in the states, but I would hope that as progress is made on connecting society together again, they can quietly be dropped. At the same time discrimination of any kind is totally unacceptable and we should continue to fight for equality of opportunity for all. There is no affirmative action for the presidency, Obama won it on merit, and that is surely hugely symbolic to minorities who think they are held back by the colour of their skin.
Complain about this comment
# 324
I recommend selfevident's post to Trevor Phillips, UK Chair of the Equalities and Human Rights Commission, who has today plunged into the post-election debate claiming that an Obama could not succeed in Britain.
Philiips tumbled into the trap of claiming "victimhood" in the UK as exemplified by the older generation of US politicians such as Sharpton and Jesse Jackson and has been eloquently put in his place by the M.P. Saddiq Khan.
Egging the pudding, he re-awakened the old cry of "instutional racialism" without stopping to think for a minute to realise that he was falling back into the comfort language of "institutional victimhood"
Thankfully, he now appears to be backtracking as fast as he can - hopefully having realised the his knee jerk negativity places him firmly in the past.
Complain about this comment
This is very hard to comment on. The demographics are changing and the old certainties about majorities and minorities are changing with them. That makes real change possible, but it will not be easy and it will only happen if everyone can buy into some sort of shared idea of what sort of society they want to live in. It is not a question of whether blacks or whites should take responsibility - they both should. I am not black and I am not American but I have seen how progress can be made (in Northern Ireland) when sustained leadership is combined with the sense that change is inevitable which comes from changing circumstances. That inevitability has to be recognised by all, however, and past hurts acknowledged but put in the past where they belong.
Complain about this comment
This may be a naive question but can anybody tell me why polititians point so often on camera?
Complain about this comment
325 eighty: Yes, I read that report too, and am in complete agreement with you.
Complain about this comment
ref #323
Another proof of your intolerance Marbles.
Obama says he want to be President for all of us, but you want to exclude people who did not support him.
Liberman unlike another Senator did not get a sweetheart loan from Countrywide.
Complain about this comment
ref #291
Let me explain it to you:
Fox News reported that McCain political staffers claimed Palin did not know Africa was a continent.
Fox never reported it as a fact
Complain about this comment
It seems that John, Asa, and Marbles can't argue a point without calling someone names.
My original post if any of you had bothered to read it was contrasting Obama not playing the race and hate card with those that do.
Just because I dared to include his wife in the list that do, I am a racist?
Are you afraid that I could be right?
As for you Marbles your hate toward people who disagree especially if they happen to be jewish is fairly obvious.
Complain about this comment
There seems to be a cultural hiccup in some of the BBC's otherwise sterling coverage of the 'election year' 2008, USA. David Dimbleby fell short in his interview with Gore Vidal. It is true the latter is cantankerous, but it is equally true that Mr Dimbleby did not know how to elicit an interesting conversation. His strategy did not work and he couldn't hack it. Not as if others haven't, actually. Jon Snow, UK's Channel 4 news, did a brilliant interview with Gore Vidal the week before. Sorry, David!
Also, Jeremy Paxman's scotched interview on the UK's Newsnight's coverage (I think it was Paxman and not Dimbleby) with Alice Walker, author of The Colour Purple, also didn't 'work'.
The trouble seems to be that both Paxman and Dimbleby expected, it seemed, their interviewees to be 'on message' - attuned to BBC cultural expectations of how they would join in the conversation. And when Walker and Vidal did not conform to the convention, Paxman and Dimbleby simply failed to imagine how to shift the narrative to accommodate the thoughts of those they were interviewing. A real pity, always, isn't it, to lose the voice of intelligent anti-conventional types. BBC: Could do better!!
Complain about this comment
The White Vote:
White America had for so long carried the burden of slavery and racism. For white people, the fear of being called a racist or even appearing to sound like one, is the beginning of wisdom. The odds were stacked against some of them. They had to prove to the world that America had outgrown and overcome racism, even though Obama was naïve and untested and his ideas, values and vision were vague. The Media played a crucial role in this outcry. Once they got white people locked down in this mode, raw emotions kicked in over analytical reasoning. They now had a moral stake in helping to elect the 1st coloured president. They now saw themselves as not just part of history, but as those making history. It thus came down to an Obama vote being a vote for CLEANSING.
Because of this, nothing stuck on him. Criticize Obama, and risk being labelled negative. a subtle but derogatory bashing of divergent opinion.
I give it to the Obama camp. They ran a very compact, efficient and ruthless campaign. They stoke all these emotional advantages without being caught with their hands on the cookie jar. They got their proxies and the media to do the dirty job for them. They worked the media and the ignorant and had them begging to be fed at the palms of a concealed product. They now have what they want, so its time to start lowering expectations according to his campaign people. It is time to liberate the ignorant from their emotional fix. Its time to give them that bitter pill called REALITY CHECK.
As usual the Mcain camp was in disarray. I bet mainly because they had no clue as to what was unravelling before their very eyes. I bet that was what Obama meant, when he said Mcain just doesn’t GET IT. Obama and his camp had people plugged in while he strolled into the White House. It was that easy. What did Mcain do, Nothing! At a point when the Republican base was being rallied and were really getting into the appropiate mode courtesy of Sarah Palin, there was this rally when an old woman asked Mcain whether Obama was a muslim? Mcain answered No, which was comforting to see. sadly, he went ahead to praise Obama has a good & decent family man and someone who had make a good president if elected, WHAT! I could not believe my ears. Was Mcain on a special Obama kool aid? Why praise your opponent in front of your supporters? I bet Mcain was trying to appease the Media and independents.
News flash! The independents were not so independent and the MSM were in the tank for Obama. The whole bunkum that genuine and legitimate criticism of Obama’s ties, judgement and character were negative attacks that did not work, were the medias attempt at deflecting criticism away from their anointed candidate. Sadly, Mcain did not deem it fit to force the hands of the MSM into being fair in their coverage. Mcain lost the propaganda war, left his troops disillusioned, pandered to the whim of the enemy and was incapable of dealing decisively with renegades within is own camp.
Complain about this comment
Now that the desperately needed change of leadership has been achieved,
may I suggest that the highest priority is to quickly drop any who show conflicts of interest or any hint of dishonesty in financial affairs?
With Diogenes, I agree that it is hard to find an honest man (especially those with experience in American finance),
but can we not pretend that they have been born again with civic virtue?
Complain about this comment
crucial piece of info for the Palin haters out there. This Poll from Rasmussen shows how much of a drag Palin was to the ticket. ha ha ha ha
Friday, November 07, 2008 E
Sixty-nine percent (69%) of Republican voters say Alaska Governor Sarah Palin helped John McCain’s bid for the presidency, even as news reports surface that some McCain staffers think she was a liability.
Only 20% of GOP voters say Palin hurt the party’s ticket, according to a new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey. Six percent (6%) say she had no impact, and five percent (5%) are undecided.
Ninety-one percent (91%) of Republicans have a favorable view of Palin, including 65% who say their view is Very Favorable. Only eight percent (8%) have an unfavorable view of her, including three percent (3%) Very Unfavorable.
When asked to choose among some of the GOP’s top names for their choice for the party’s 2012 presidential nominee, 64% say Palin. The next closest contenders are two former governors and unsuccessful challengers for the presidential nomination this year -- Mike Huckabee of Arkansas with 12% support and Mitt Romney of Massachusetts with 11%.
Three other sitting governors – Bobby Jindal of Louisiana, Charlie Crist of Florida and Tim Pawlenty of Minnesota – all pull low single-digit support.
Complain about this comment
It is still as it is...
Peace and time to heal
ed
Complain about this comment
A few points on the whole race issue, which is what we began by discussing. I'm sure some have already been made. Some if not all seem fairly obvious to me.
1. As far as I can see, Mr Webb makes no claim at all in his v brief posting. Eg He doesn't say 'black culture' must change - it's a point of view he attributes to Bill Cosby amongst others. Therefore the accusations of racism against Justin are foolish and unfounded in my view.
2. I think there are 2 extreme views on Obama's election and racism, both equally false: [a] This proves that racism, racial discrimination and racial inequality are dead in the US. Let's hear no more complaints! Or [b] Absolutely nothing has changed, and every problem experienced by African-Americans [AAs for short] is entirely the fault of white racism, and AAs can do nothing to prove their own position.
3. Some Americans tend to repeat the mantra about the 'land of opportunity'. There's something to it. But AFAIK statistics show that the US is NOT particularly socially mobile - disparities between rich and poor are widening, and social mobility relatively small. The fact that someone like Obama rose from quite humble origins doesn't disprove this - it's just a credit to his abilities.
4. To refer to 'black culture' is not to say that that all black people are the same any more than all whites are. But you can still refer to certain unfortunate tendencies - I believe Obama himself referred to 2. One was the view, some times found, that studying is 'white' - ie AAs in school accusing an AA student who applies himself of trying to be 'white' - and the other is the too large number of one-parent AA families - ie AA men who don't accept the responsibility of fatherhood. Some people also argue that the latter is 'self-perpetuating' - eg if AA boys grow up without a strong male role model, they're less inclined to be responsible fathers. [It’s a theory - I don't know either way.]
5. As far as I can see, people like Obama and Cosby are emphatically not saying that all racial problems are the fault of AAs - but I think they do believe that AAs must look at what improvements they can make themselves, as well as blaming others.
6. As to what Obama can or will do for AA's - he's committed to [trying to] improve healthcare and economic opportunity. Since AAs are disproportionately poor, they should benefit if he succeeds. That doesn't mean he has to direct his policies specifically towards any racial group.
Just my '2 cents'.
Complain about this comment
#333
ice:
i don't know where you're from; i don't know your history; i don't know why you think what you do. that being said, i also have no idea why you post even an 1/8 of what you do as it sounds nothing short of borderline "conspiracy theory", if not "delusional". that's not meant to be taken as an insult so much as a total lack of understanding; so please forgive it.
Complain about this comment
333. At 11:36am on 08 Nov 2008, icetayoa wrote:
Standard Republican bunkum - to use his own word - which he endlessly repeats.
Essentially, since the electorate didn't vote the way he wanted to, they were hypnotised or swayed by emotion.
And also the remarkable revelation that the problem with the Republican campaign wasn't that it was one of the sleaziest in memory. No - they just weren't sleazy enough!
Complain about this comment
Ref 333
"Because of this, nothing stuck on him. Criticize Obama, and risk being labelled negative. a subtle but derogatory bashing of divergent opinion."
I realize it is painful for those who wish to perpetuate the past to accept the reality that our society no longer endorses segregation or promotes different standards of inclusion based on race.
Most of the white people that voted for Obama did not do it because they did not want to be considered racists by their peers or because they wished to correct past wrongs, we did it because we looked past Obama's ethnicity and simply saw a man whose intelligence, education, demeanor, and vision of what is best for our country far surpassed the limitations of his opponent.
Contrary to what you suggest, President-elect Obama was subjected to savage negative attacks ranging from egregious cultural bias, to defamation of his religious convictions, distortion of his policies, and despicable attempts to link him to terrorism and political dogma he does not share.
Sen. McCain ran one of the most negative campaigns in the history of the USA, did not offer clear or cohesive proposals on how to solve the problems that afflict us, his choice of VP made his judgment and motives questionable, and he showed so much hatred and disdain during the debates that he simply became unacceptable to most of us. Add to that the albatross that the Bush Administration represents and the reason for McCain's defeat should not be too difficult to understand.
The problem for the Grand Old Party is not Sen. McCain's defeat, but the ideological and philosophical divisions that currently exist within the party which if they remain unresolved could lead to the emergence of a third party.
Complain about this comment
Dave Barry's take on the election is here - http://www.miamiherald.com/living/columnists/dave-barry/story/756596.html
Does anyone else think that his parody of what Republicans think of Obama is pretty close to what a lot of them have been saying here?
Complain about this comment
# 336 ~ Time to heal
I remember some interesting comments on these pages a while back (led, I think by Marbles) about the lack of Obama yard signs - for the very reason that you highlight.
Firstly, this now proves that yard signs don't win elections.
Secondly, this decline has been very much the trend in the UK during recent elections where people formerly put up a poster or a stakeboard for their candidate.
The decline has been attributed far more to signs and posters attracting the attentions of exhuberant (read, plastered) youths rather than those of political opponents.
Complain about this comment
Ice # 335
You have just condemned the Republican party to shrink to something the size of the (fast diminishing) Alaskan electorate.
Complain about this comment
# 331. MagicKirin wrote:
"It seems that John, Asa, and Marbles can't argue a point without calling someone names./My original post if any of you had bothered to read it was contrasting Obama not cwith those that do./Just because I dared to include his wife in the list that do, I am a racist?/Are you afraid that I could be right?/As for you Marbles your hate toward people who disagree especially if they happen to be jewish is fairly obvious."
The only 'name' I recall is semi-literate. A fact he repeatedly demonstrates
"My original post if any of you had bothered to read it was contrasting Obama not playing the race and hate card with those that do"
The problem is that you continually seem to delude yourself into believing that because you hurl poisonous accusations like 'hate' at people, they are automatically true. No evidence is needed but your prejudice. And what is saying people are 'playing the race and hate card' - but name calling?
"Are you afraid that I could be right?"
Well statistically I suppose it has to happen once. But I’m not holding my breath.
"As for you Marbles your hate toward people who disagree especially if they happen to be jewish [sic] is fairly obvious."
If in doubt, throw in the anti-Semitism card
Exactly how many Jews has Marbles criticised? Joe Lieberman and Magic are the only 2 that immediately spring to mind. [Not that criticising someone who is Jewish makes one anti-Semitic of course.]
And let's direct that comment at Mr Magic-Pot-Kirin
"As for you Magic, your hatred toward people who disagree with you, especially if they happen to be African-American, African, liberals, or Democrats, is fairly obvious."
To name but a few -
President Barack Obama
Michelle Obama
President Nelson Mandela
Desmond Tutu
Kofi Annan
President Jimmy Carter
Ariana Huffington
John Kerry
Maxine Waters
Jessie Jackson
Charlie Rangel
Diane Wilkerson
All together now
'And Uncle Tom Cobleigh and all...'
[Note for Americans - that's an extract from an old English folk song, meant to imply a never-ending list - nothing to do whatsoever with Harriet Beecher Stowe's 'Uncle Tom'...]
Complain about this comment
Speaking of "victimhood", what do you all think of Sen. Joe Lieberman? Since I consider revenge unseemly, I believe he should be kept in a position of authority, such as being in charge of the Congressional toilets, with a unionized Joe the Plumber as his sidekick. They should be free to caucus in the Men rooms, but should remain vigilant of Republican congressmen with a tendency to use those facilities for other than their intended purpose.
Complain about this comment
337 John: Just 2 cents, but quite valuable! : )
340 Dominick: Well said.
Complain about this comment
Ref 342
"Firstly, this now proves that yard signs don't win elections."
I was among those on the verge of chronic depression at the sight of an overwhelming majority of McCain/Palin yard and car signs in Florida, where I live. It is apparent that overt expressions of allegiance do not trump the will of the silent majority.
Complain about this comment
Further to mine at #339, and Ice T's view that the Reps were too easy on Obama.
I was listening to a programme on the radio this morning - highlights of the week.
They played McCain's concession speech and commented that he was 'very gracious - unlike some in his audience'. Referring of course to the loud boos at the mention of President-elect Obama.
I also read yesterday that there was a sharp rise in death threats against Obama towards the end of his campaign - when the Rep cries that he was a dangerous Marxist and friend of terrorists were at their peak.
But of course - the 'hate' come only from those pesky liberals.....
Complain about this comment
335 Ice: Surely the point is you can't win an election appealing just to the GOP. Far more interesting and relevant would be her ratings amongst democrats and independents.
Complain about this comment
Dominick (340),
Sadly, this is patently true, but although I never warmed to McCain, I feel he didn't so much run his campaign as he was its captive - a sad example of the opportunistic exploitation of a man of failing mental powers by the ruthless.I hope he can achieve, through the promised helpful approach to the coming administration, some redemption of his legacy...
Peace and compassion
ed
Complain about this comment
# 346. selfevidenttruths wrote:
"337 John: Just 2 cents, but quite valuable! : )"
Gracias!
"340 Dominick: Well said."
Agreed
Complain about this comment
Dominick,
The image Loverman being put in charge of the toilets conjures up is not altogether wholesome, to say the least..
;-)
ed
Complain about this comment
Domenick
Joe Lieberman ?
Toast
Complain about this comment
Ms Marbles #323,
Could not agree with you more. And Dominick and Eds' offerings got me to thinking.
Sometimes this blog becomes inundated with intelligent facts and figures, offering too much for an old head like mine and a quick read of the alternative viewpoint can produce the necessary cure.
Look on those, who write distorted dribble, as a mental enema, clearing your mind of the crap, to absorb more of the good stuff.
Magic K,- the thinking mans laxative.
Complain about this comment
i said...
I, like most other pro Mcain bloggers were constantly bullied, smeared and harassed on the web. I was once called a racist and redneck for pointing out Obama’s inadequacies. Though I am a Black African
( Nigerian ) I almost became duty-bound by these hate spewing, name calling bloggers into being ashamed of my legitimate criticism of Obama’s record and character
#338 wrote
i don't know where you're from; i don't know your history; i don't know why you think what you do. that being said, i also have no idea why you post even an 1/8 of what you do as it sounds nothing short of borderline "conspiracy theory", if not "delusional"
#229 wrote
221 that because we want you racists to understand what you are and how we do not have to give you the time of day while you are so bigoted
#211 wrote
Not sure what this asinine rant actually means.
Politics is war? No, war is a continuation politics by other means is what Clausewitz wrote.
Perhaps learning the mxim is a good idea before quoting it?
#217 wrote
190 ice head
you are a racist , accepted.
In my books that doesn't make you very smart.
Never met a nice or smart racist my
#224 wrote
I have a suggestion that might drive off some of our more insane posters; a word count limit. If they couldn't post their long, tedious, rambling and never remotely substantiated rants maybe they would just go away? Probably a forlorn hope but maybe its worth a shot?
#229 wrote
221 that because we want you racists to understand what you are and how we do not have to give you the time of day while you are so bigoted .
Now if you were not speaking or writing like a party poster from the KKK or the BNP maybe your views would be treated with some respect.
I REST MY CASE
Complain about this comment
Ref 333 icetayoa
Very good posting, but count on some hostility. I too couldn't believe my ears when hearing McCain's reply to that woman's question whether he considered Obama a Muslim. Pathetic! If he truly believed the mushy response he gave, little wonder he lost this election! It contradicted other things he said that legitimately cast doubt on Obama's integrity and judgment. What a way in which to hand advantage to your opponent! It was manna to the grubby hoards of the liberal/left media who were determined to deflect from the public awareness the less thrilling side to Barack Obama's character. It was also solace to those uncertain which way to vote. Evidently political correctness afflicts even McCain. With that whispering in his ear his convictions were undermined and his message weakened.
Complain about this comment
# 334 # Waterman
...... and Ice - the thinking man's diuretic.
Complain about this comment
Continuing our weekly service....
Good old Alan Abelson!Peace and Imagination
ed
Complain about this comment
i said...
I, like most other pro Mcain bloggers were constantly bullied, smeared and harassed on the web. I was once called a racist and redneck for pointing out Obama?s inadequacies. Though I am a Black African
( Nigerian ) I almost became duty-bound by these hate spewing, name calling bloggers into being ashamed of my legitimate criticism of Obama?s record and character"
Oh dear, self pity is not an attractive trait.
Your comments about Obama were marked by prejudice, bigotry, woeful ignorance and a failure to actually argue.
No one else is to blame for your own failings
Complain about this comment
ref #345
Dominck I expect better of you.
unlike Marbles and others you made your arguments for Obama without insulting the other side.
Complain about this comment
"As for you Magic, your hatred toward people who disagree with you, especially if they happen to be African-American, African, liberals, or Democrats, is fairly obvious."
To name but a few -
President Barack Obama
Michelle Obama
President Nelson Mandela
Desmond Tutu
Kofi Annan
President Jimmy Carter
Ariana Huffington
John Kerry
Maxine Waters
Jessie Jackson
Charlie Rangel
Diane Wilkerson
So to criticize a liberal's failings or in the case of Wilkerson criminal behavior and in the case of Tutu and Mandela support of terrorism makes you racist?
I also have criticzed Michael Savage, Pat Robertson, alan Keyes and other conservatives.
Complain about this comment
#359 wrote
Oh dear, self pity is not an attractive trait.
Your comments about Obama were marked by prejudice, bigotry, woeful ignorance and a failure to actually argue.
No one else is to blame for your own failings.
I said..
I almost became duty-bound by these hate spewing, name calling bloggers into being ashamed of my legitimate criticism of Obama?s record and character"
Wow! Your guy won an election and you still spew so much hatred just because i dont see him as being best suited for the job. i wonder how you guys would have reacted had he lost? just a thought!
Complain about this comment
Some of the posts on this site are becoming like the case history session at an annual meeting of the Paranoics Anonymous.
Complain about this comment
#335
Ice,
So just over two thirds of 46% (lets make it easy and round it up to 32%) of the population thinks she helped?
Gee, I guess the other 68% of voters must be wrong. Plus the unknown numbers of Republicans who stayed at home because they were too depressed by their own party to vote?
Lies, damned lies and statistics.
Economist Sam
Complain about this comment
#82
No, payment of reparations to the descendants of people that suffered discrimination, long after the fact, would not be just.
If you know anything about the US, you should realize the US is based on equality of opportunity, not equality of results.
20+ years of affirmative action are enough.
Complain about this comment
#362
Ice,
You confuse criticism with hatred. Sadly that has become common in the American discourse. These are the tactics and politics beloved of Karl Rove. When someone disagrees attack their character, if that fails call them intolerant.
We just watched two campaigns, one that followed this play book and one that tried, with a couple of notable exceptions' to stay above this. The higher road won because We The People are sick of the gutter diatribe form of politics.
We could be wrong, we may even have chosen the less able man. That is at this point a mindless debate.
No one has spewed hatred towards you on this blog, though many have been critical of your positions. The statements of Coulter, Limbore et al promising to greet Obama with the contempt that GWB earned over the last few years. They have good reason, their livlihoods depend upon selling advertizing and books based on this line. And no doubt the extreme right of the now extreme Republican party will follow them.
I for one want us all to get along and try to fix a few things. Those who hate? For now they are an irrelevant fringe and we should all leave them there with each other for company.
Peacemaker Sam
Complain about this comment
361. At 2:34pm on 08 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
"So to criticize a liberal's failings or in the case of Wilkerson criminal behavior and in the case of Tutu and Mandela support of terrorism makes you racist?"
[a] Sorry to drag you back to the real world. You are replying to my posting. Perhaps you will be so good as to point out where I called you a racist? In this or indeed in any other posting? i haven't. It could just be a coincidence that so many of the people you hate are African or African-American.
[b] There is a difference between 'criticising' and name-calling. You called Mandela and Tutu 'phonies' - with, as I recall, no explanation or justification. When called on this, there was no mention of 'terrorism' - you just said that Mandela hadn't criticised Mugabe sufficiently. Maybe he didn't - but he is retired, he's c 90 years old, and he was unjustly locked up for 27 years and preached reconciliation with those who did it when released. He's not perfect - but a damn sight nearer than you. [And of course he was called a 'terrorist' by the likes of you and Dick Cheney.]
[c] Presumably 'support of terrorism' = 'isn't completely blind to any fault in the State of Israel and/or refuses to accept any opponent of Israel is evil incarnate'
[d] Your 'criticism' is, as I have repeatedly pointed out, little more than name-calling. Anyone you dislike or disagree with gets tarred with the word 'hater'
[e] Try buying a dictionary. You badly need one. Look up the words 'evidence', 'proof', 'bias', and 'prejudice'.
[f] Next time you continue your usual practice of hatefully hurling around hateful epithets - try providing some evidence - for once. Or better still - stop.
[g] I've no idea who Wilkerson is and don't much care
Complain about this comment
Peacemaker Sam,
Well said!
Slainte!
ed
Complain about this comment
# 362 icetayoa wrote:
"Wow! Your guy won an election and you still spew so much hatred just because i dont see him as being best suited for the job. i wonder how you guys would have reacted had he lost? just a thought!"
To which I would say:
Wow! Your guy lost an election and you still spew so much hatred just because the electorate didn't see him as being best suited for the job. I wonder how you guys would have reacted had he won?
Just a thought!
Complain about this comment
Just as an aside, there's an excellent play on Radio4 at the moment...
Peace and Passover
ed
Complain about this comment
David Frum, neocon and former Bush speechwriter, on Palin and the Republican future
"College-educated Americans have come to believe that their money is safe with Democrats - but that their values are under threat from Republicans. There are more and more college-educated voters./So the question for the GOP is: Will it pursue them? This will involve painful change, on issues ranging from the environment to abortion. It will involve even more painful changes of style and tone: toward a future that is less overtly religious, less negligent with policy, and less polarising on social issues./That's a future that leaves little room for Sarah Palin - but the only hope for a Republican recovery."
From that bastion of the commie-pinko mainstream media, the Daily Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/11/05/do0516.xml
Complain about this comment
355 icetayoa wrote:
(Snip yet another long rant which could be of interest to clinical psychology students)
"I REST MY CASE"
__________________
And the jury is rolling on the floor laughing!
Complain about this comment
#356
Robloop,
Move on baby, the election is over. You should go hang with Ann and Rush. That said, if you are not a thoroughly right wing American voter with a big wad of cash to give them, they may not like you very much.
Good luck with that!
Practical Sam
Complain about this comment
Ref 362
"Your guy won an election and you still spew so much hatred just because i dont see him as being best suited for the job."
He is now OUR guy unless, of course, you are not a US citizen. I suggest you re-read and analyze the contents of the posts that respond to your comments before accusing people of hatred and bigotry. Disagreeing with someone's beliefs and opinions does not constitute an expression of hatred. After doing that, you may want to read what you have been writing and reflect on what you find.
In my case, I found John McCain's proposals ineffective and quite often lacking, I was also very concerned about his judgment and character because of the way he treated his first wife, his VP selection, and the barely contained anger he showed during the campaign. I was also disappointed by his inability to rein in his campaign team and force them to conduct themselves with the level of decorum that should be expected from people aspiring for some of the most influential positions in our country. Sadly, their unprofessionalism did not end on Tuesday and it continues today with the demonization and virtual execution of Sarah Palin. Ironically, the biggest casualty is not going to be Gov. Palin, but the legacy of Sen. McCain.
Regarding a comment made by another poster, I believe what the woman who expressed fear at the likelihood of then Sen. Obama becoming President actually accused him of was being an "Arab" not a "Muslim", although I suspect she meant the latter since Obama's physiognomy does not show resemblance to Semitic ethnicity.
Then again, I doubt she knew the difference. I was actually impressed with John McCain's response, which given the circumstances should be regarded as courageous and principled.
Complain about this comment
362. icetayoa,
Wow! Your guy won an election and you still spew so much hatred just because i dont see him as being best suited for the job. i wonder how you guys would have reacted had he lost? just a thought!
My thoughts exactly. And I chuckled at your post no. 355. That should be required reading for the tunnel-visioned on the left who jump to immediate and furious conclusions about people on the other side of the fence and then spew vitriol at them.
Why the venom spewed at Magickirin? Because he has a different opinion from that of the lefty norm?
And we see the same venom spewed at Israel on a topic that has nothing to do with Israel:
23. proles:
…we can expect that Israel and its American servants in both wings of the Duopoly Party will continue to use the "victimhood"/"anti-semitic" wolf cry to cover up the crimes of the Jewish State and continue to make many new real victims among long-suffering Palestinians. There won't be any "hope" and "change" for Palestinian victims with Rahm Emmanuel and his zionist cohorts pulling Obama's strings.
Emmanuel is not a “Zionist.” And he was a Clinton adviser.
84. simon21:
Coming from someone who defends every Israeli atrocity on the grounds that Israel "is a victim" (even when shooting at schoolchildren), this is beyond irony.
Israel doesn’t commit atrocities and doesn’t shoot at schoolchildren. Not intentionally, anyway.
228. jacksforge
179
gherkin you find anyone that is not a rabid zionist very polarizing.
That’s more prejudiced nonsense, of course. But why let facts interfere with a satisfying rant, right guys?
Complain about this comment
I thought several of the "nutty-wing" posters here had said that, in the event of an Obama victory, they would take off for the mountains with their guns and a supply of food.
Evidently they are all still around.
It's never too late to take off for an extended camping trip, just please be careful not to mistake any hikers for "liberal government thought police" and shoot them...
Enjoy yourselves!
Complain about this comment
Ref 371
'There are more and more college-educated voters./So the question for the GOP is: Will it pursue them?'
The battle that is about to take place within the GOP will be between intellectuals and political pragmatists focused on fiscal and social conservatism, and the religious and blue collar faction that support Sarah Palin and Joe the Plumber. The outcome is far from certain, and it could produce either a formidable and principled party akin to the one that dominated American politics in the 1980s, or the emergence of a third party.
Complain about this comment
#362 wrote
Ice,
You confuse criticism with hatred.
Criticism?? i guess you mean the following
#359 wrote
Oh dear, self pity is not an attractive trait.
Your comments about Obama were marked by prejudice, bigotry
AND THIS..
#217 wrote
190 ice head
you are a racist , accepted.
In my books that doesn't make you very smart.
Never met a nice or smart racist my
If those are criticism, i am very proud of the ivy league school you attended.
Complain about this comment
260. At 8:24pm on 07 Nov 2008, DougTexan wrote:
"In fact, I'm inclined to accept that humanity is as incapable of comprehending (completely understanding) Reality as coffee is of comprehending the cup which contains it.
Ed,.. this was good, just another way to describe jacksforge... lol,.. just kiddin' jack.
-----------------------------
Ll Ok it comes from someone who thought GW was fine.Twice, and probably voted for Mc Cain /Palin in the end.
there is not need to discuss reality with people that vote like that.Really.
But I will.
Reality .The american way ,lets not pretend it is anything like the reality the rest of the world sees, Failed, is failing and will continue to fail if the likes of you always think your morally bankrupt arguements and views are OK in a civilised scociety.
I Through out this campaign have been more on the ball than you Texan.
Certainly not shocked by the economy, the War, progress , lack, or the utter racist jerks that exist here on this blog, you famously have tried to pretend you are not one of them.
But so does ice in the head, and the Gherkin.
BTW where did meerkitten go.
Esentially through out from the very start you GOPpers have been trying your best to excuse your behaviour.
The only excuse you have is that Justin is as much a bigot as you.
Complain about this comment
376
I hear mt Adams in a blizzard is just perfect.
Complain about this comment
367. At 3:22pm on 08 Nov 2008, john-In-Dublin wrote:
361. At 2:34pm on 08 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
"So to criticize a liberal's failings or in the case of Wilkerson criminal behavior and in the case of Tutu and Mandela support of terrorism makes you racist?"
[a] Sorry to drag you back to the real world. You are replying to my posting. Perhaps you will be so good as to point out where I called you a racist? In this or indeed in any other posting? i haven't. It could just be a coincidence that so many of the people you hate are African or African-American."
It's no coincidence, this person dislikes blacks, arabs etc. The bigotry is obvious. He was asked for his views on disabled and gay people, but no answer - too ashamed.
Racists do not like being called racists, what of it? They are not supposed to like the term - rapists do not like being called rapists.
Complain about this comment
378 crack daddy
there is no ivy league in the UK.
There the universities try to keep the weeds off the buildings, and in the halls ,on the whole.
Oh educated one.
Complain about this comment
#376
Speleo,
That's totally not fair. I do that every weekend regardless of election results. And I didn't vote for McCain this time either.
I like my bunker. I like it more since my dear wife filled it up with vino. Nothing like a cheeky Chianti and some chocolate hob nobs.
And please make sure you whistle on my property. It is, after all, hunting season and the local farmers have been good enough to help me by painting 'C O W' on their livestock that sometimes wanders in. And putting bells on them.
Sportsman Sam
Complain about this comment
"378. At 3:57pm on 08 Nov 2008, icetayoa wrote:
#362 wrote
Ice,
You confuse criticism with hatred.
Criticism?? i guess you mean the following
#359 wrote
Oh dear, self pity is not an attractive trait.
Your comments about Obama were marked by prejudice, bigotry
AND THIS..
#217 wrote
190 ice head
you are a racist , accepted.
In my books that doesn't make you very smart.
Never met a nice or smart racist my
If those are criticism, i am very proud of the ivy league school you attended."
Yes these are criticisms. What do you think they are praises?
Here's a tip, if you do not want to appear to be a bigot, do not say bigoted things.
If you do not want to appear to be a rascist, stop saying racist things.
One way for a thief to avoid being called a thief is to stop stealing.
See!
Otherwise put up with it.
Complain about this comment
#378
Ice,
Me too, very proud. Granted 217 owes you an apology. But that is the only post I have seen in this thread that comes close to an insult, and you amke out you are being hounded.
Self pity is an unattractive trait. See how many girls or boys you pick up looking miserable in a bar. Not many who don't take Zoloft.
Lighten up!
Counselor Sam
Complain about this comment
robloop makes interesting points at nos. 116 and 195.
Post Mandela, there is a tremendous amount of violence and reverse racism in the New South Africa – that wonderful Rainbow Nation experiment. Let us hope that a similar scenario will not unfold in the US. And let us hope that a culture of entitlement does not now take deeper root among black Americans than it has done in the past.
Listening to this programme on the BBC, I am not encouraged:
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/worldservice/whys/whys_20081106-2000a.mp3
Listen for a Bostonian editor called Jason, who appears to be intent on living in the past, dwelling on slavery and stirring up as much white guilt as he can, even though Obama is now president. How much sympathy for his views is there in black America?
(Link only good until middle of next week, unless downloaded.)
Complain about this comment