American exceptionalism
Apologies if people have seen this but it's too good to let it pass: American exceptionalism in a poll.
Did Jim Callaghan's supporters feel that way when Mrs Thatcher won in 1979; Major's when Blair came to power; I think not.
The figure of interest (of course) is the Republican optimism quotient: nearly half of those who voted for McCain are optimistic about the future under Obama.
It goes to two wonderful facts about the US: first there is a real desire to live life "in the future tense" as David Brooks has it, secondly there is an understanding that life is what you make of it irrespective of who's in or who's out in Washington.
The world can learn from the postive spirit of (many) American Republicans.
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Justin,
It can't get too much worse. Can it? So we have to be optimistic.
Sad Sam
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Perhaps they are optimistic that things will be better than they would have been under Bush/Cheney.
There might still be, among the less enlightened, the idea of the "City on the Hill", the beacon to all mankind, etc.
Would it then be "optimism" or ignorance and indoctrination?
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Of course, by September 1997, only four months after he was elected, Tony Blair had approval ratings of 93%. So can I imagine it happening in the UK? Yes, actually.
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Aha ! A poll which confirms Justin Webb's main theme about America - its eternal optimism and its ability to re-invent itself.
I recommend to all students of the election (i.e. everyone who uses this blog) P.J. O'Rourke's typically rumbustious new essay "We Blew It" published in the Weekly Standard. Available on-line.
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And looking at the demob happy face of John McCain chirruping away to Jay Leno, it does strike me that many Republicans are heaving a great sigh of relief at making a well-timed escape. No wonder they're feeling good.
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They think life can be better under Obama. They vote for McCain not because they think under McCain life can be better. They vote for McCain becase,
1) Repubiican loyalty
2) Loyalty to God - According to their interpretation of bible.
3) Racist
4) They believe War is the solution to terror
And those that still say under Obama life is not going better. It is because they define the term "life get better" as spirtually and not physically.
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Justin, I know you like to be upbeat about the USA and there is nothing wrong thisthis. However I suggest this poll says more about US "patriotism" and the need to feel good than it does about real views about life. Americans tend to give the POTUS support until they do something they hate, and with recession and the Iraq war they desperately want to feel good again.
On another note Palin has said
So she will be retiring from public life tomorrow?
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Not to burst your bubble Justin but two points -
1. Did you read the bit, "About seven in 10 were also optimistic about Presidents Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush, and Bill Clinton -- before their first terms began. Six in 10 were optimistic in December 2000 about George W. Bush, even after that election?s 35-day post-election struggle. "
In practically all these cases the wave of optimism passed pretty quickly to be replaced by contempt.
2. David Brooks has it, secondly there is an understanding that life is what you make of it irrespective of who's in or who's out in Washington.
Interesting but it is not actually true is it. Like it or not what happens in Washington effects the whole country
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The Thatcher comaprison is not really valid - she was a figure very unlike Obama and she portrayed herself in a most partisan way and so she would never inspire optimism in her opponents. Blair is different and a better comparison (lets hope Obama avoids the same hubristic failings). Even many of those who voted for Major felt genuinely thrilled at the change of governing party after 18 years and there was an extended honeymoon period for Blair. I don't think the US is exceptional in this regard.
As to the final comment I think most people around the world do get on with living their own lives regardless of the government in power - with the obvious exceptions of N Korea, Zimbabwe etc where despotic regimes have total control. Even in China (where the popular view of the nation and the world is an uncanny mirror of the US) people just carry on as the politburo refreshes itself.
You're all doing very well !!
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Simon and Young Mr Grace
I don't think you can over-estimate the influence that the Washington Administration (and the dollar) have had on the rest of world for a hundred years.
The question is : will that influence continue or have we come to a turning point in American hegemony ?
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But Justin- Bush now has lower approval ratings than any President since records began- even Nixon.
They'd probably be optimistic about the next 4 years if Bob Barr/Ralph Nader/anyone really had won.
I see this far more as a further indictment on Bush rather than Republicans supporting Obama.
Given the massive majority democrat majority in the house and in the Senate (they could still get to 60 seats!)- I don't think we'll see all that much bipartisanship at all....
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10. At 10:53am on 13 Nov 2008, eightypercent wrote:
Simon and Young Mr Grace:
The question is : will that influence continue or have we come to a turning point in American hegemony ?
Bit of a silly poll, isn't it? Sam, I think is right: you'd have to be a pathological pessimist to think things could get worse.
Different kind of hegemony, or the same? Not sure about that. Let's give it another fifty years or so, and we'll see . . .
As to Major's supporters, I know one. (Only one! A one-time Thatcherite until his new wife and I managed to persuade him of the wrongness of his views . . .) And he was really happy to see him and the Tories gone . . .
Too easy to confuse 'optimism' with 'relief'.
(Brickbats will be soon be flying from the usual quarters about Brits always being pessimistic (read: sensibly realistic), so I'm off.)
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If you keep cool and are calm and serene while all around you are losing their heads....you obviously haven't got a clue as to what's really going on.
69:
"It can't get too much worse. Can it?"
That's what you think. Not only are the problems about as bad as they've ever been, they've all come at once. And now we have a captain at the helm who is so inexperienced that he's clueless. His argument; experience got us into this mess, inexperience will get us out.
The only difference between the world as it stands now and Titanic is that they had a band. Rearrange the deck chairs Mr. Obama...for all the good it will do us. If Iran or al Qaeda doesn't get us with WMDs, global warming, bird flu, or a deep economic depression will. This is the first time in my long life that I've felt the chances for human survival are ominously slim.
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Oh, yes, one more thing: what's a 'postive spirit' when it's at home? Anything to do with 'going postal'?
Or 'costive'? (We'll see a lot of the latter spirit, I suspect?)
Subs off this morning, I see.
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That's it then -we now know not to include Marcus in the positive column.
Why is it that that makes me feel good ?
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Where the optimism is concerned, it doesn't sound unique about each President before their terms. What made the US optimistic, and what did the elected prez do to ruin that? I already know about Bush, and the problems with Reagan's economic policies we are still dealing with, but it would have been more interesting to find out what the country in question was looking for in a prez, and how a prez could avoid the disappointment.
Moreover, if this is true, then why do these Presidents get reelected for a second term?
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Post 13 "This is the first time in my long life that I've felt the chances for human survival are ominously slim. "
I think it undermines Justin's argument that Americans are uniquely optimstic when the uberamerican posts the most pessimistic blog entry of all.
You're all doing very well !!
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Who wrote this on Mark Mardell's Euroblog at 11.45 a.m. today ?
"Despite his inexperience in government, he brings intelligence, talents, energy, ideas just like Americans of all races do .....
..... those who sell America short don't know what they are up against"
It's worth reading. All you have to do is click onto the name Marcus Aurelius II and that post, plus other (conflicting) thoughts of Marcus, will be revealed.
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Marcus,
Did you feel less so before the election?Complain about this comment
Americans, even those adamantly opposed to the ruling party, tend to give a new President a clean slate. He can do well or poorly from there.
Even Dubya was relatively popular before Iraq.
Anyone who's read my posts can count me amoung the pessimist column, but that doesn't stop me from hoping that Obama will rise to the occasion when the oportunity arises.
I also hope that there is something in plethora of the President Elect's classified briefings upset him enough to shake him out of his fantasy world.
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Regardless of who is President, for most of us, it's off to the salt mines in the morning and back to the tavern or TV in the evening. Whoever is living at 1600 Penna Avenue doesn't really matter. But it's nice to have someone of honor and integrity in there now.
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I feel the weakness of this argument is that it relies on 'I think not', when what is required is comparable poll data for the UK (or other countires).
Even if you grant that the British are more pessimistic than Americans, the point about life being what you make of it doesn't follow: we may just be more pessimistic about our own abilities, not the Government.
Joe the plumber may think he's going to be earning more than $250k one day soon, but that doesn't make him right: evidence, the whole evidence, and nothing but the evidence - opinion is a waste of time.
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Grounds for optimism?
So, what else is new?Bailout Lacks Oversight Despite Billions Pledged
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Peace and Total Economic Collapse
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#21, LeftofMao
"Regardless of who is President, for most of us, it's off to the salt mines in the morning and back to the tavern or TV in the evening. Whoever is living at 1600 Penna Avenue doesn't really matter. But it's nice to have someone of honor and integrity in there now"
Well at the risk of being optimistic, at the very least hopefully America will now be able to rebuild it's foreign ties.
Peace
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America's optimism although perhaps it was plain old greed is why we are knee deep in trouble, on our way to complete immersion. Unfortunately life is what you make it is complete balderdash.
For the US electorate to believe that OB is going to be able to deliver on all his commitments is at best naive at worst incomprehensible.
One acceptable outcome would be that the current financial mess is cleared up without too many people being bankrupt or too many getting rich.
Another would be that USA learns a little bit of humility. It may be capable of destroying the world but that doesn't necessarily grant it any privilege. Is MAD really necessary or realistic in this century?
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7. The Notting Hill Hammer wrote:
"On another note Palin has said
she would be happy to do whatever she was asked to progress the nation.
So she will be retiring from public life tomorrow?"
No, she is waiting for God to show her the door (the exit, I'm sure)
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What Change will look like?
Peace and TransitionDiscuss
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Very upbeat attitude, Justin! Obviously you didn't experience the U.S. after Jimmy Carter had been in office a few years. The place was like a mortuary, depression all around, rude jokes about the president.
Ronald Reagan cured that nightmare.
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To #26, Sampsiceramus
"No, she is waiting for God to show her the door "
I saw the transcript to that interview. She scares me.
Sounds to me like she is assuming that God wants her to run for/and be president. God, if you exist, please help us!!! She sounds like the monarchs a few centuries ago...
Peace
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29. SaintOne wrote:
"Sounds to me like she is assuming that God wants her to run for/and be president. "
Well, no one can be sure of what God actually thinks, but my guess is:
"Palin who?"
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Or
"I hate fans"
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31. SaintOne
or
"maybe she thinks I'm a fan. Ho Myself!"
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Touche :)
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7. At 10:12am on 13 Nov 2008, The Notting Hill Hammer wrote:
Justin, I know you like to be upbeat about the USA and there is nothing wrong thisthis. However I suggest this poll says more about US "patriotism" and the need to feel good than it does about real views about life. Americans tend to give the POTUS support until they do something they hate, and with recession and the Iraq war they desperately want to feel good again.
On another note Palin has said
she would be happy to do whatever she was asked to progress the nation.
So she will be retiring from public life tomorrow?
----------------------
good call
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Justin the positive sprit you refer to among Republicans is caused by medication .
I saw John McCain on Leno . I think he is still running for office and Palin? She's waiting for God to give her the go ahead and open a few doors for her .
Think they may need to up the meds soon for both of them .
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I'm a republican who voted for John McCain. If McCain had won I really wonder whether the democrats would be as optomistic. There is a difference between conservatives and liberals. As conservatives we don't look to the government as our end-all in life. We basically want the government limited in society. We're self-reliant and know that our success in life depends on ourselves and not the gov. So if our guy loses we're not in total despair. For a liberal it's a different matter. Liberals look to the government as their source of prosperity in life and so if their guy loses then they think it's all over. Just look at how totally freaked out they were about Pres. Bush. It was as if the sky was falling. Liberals, I don't envy you. As a self-reliant Republican I'm going to continue to be happy no matter who is in office.
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Perhaps one of the greatest strengths of the American people (and also a weakness?) is the ability to completely forget. It could also be a symptom of mass stupidity or as #35 suggests medication.
This give us the ability to be eternally optimistic (and maybe also stupified).
Anyway I think I can see a positive social effect from the Obama election among my local ethnic minority neighbors that is heartwarming - everyone is holding their heads up an eighth to a quarter inch higher and there's more courtesy going around - subtle but there.
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To #36, Toby
Whilst I believe the view you are taking is a good one, you can't blame the democrats for getting "totally freaked out" by a 2nd Bush term, or even the first term. Just look what happened....
Peace
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#36 - After GWBush got into office the sky did fall...He and Cheney will be up for war crimes if there is any justice in the world
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The world can learn from the postive spirit of (many) American Republicans.
bite
But not the Dems then.
as many have said in more polite terms the Americans are such team spirited people they always get happy.
Or as sam says it can't get much worse.
Lets dwell on that positive spirit.
"Heck,acid rain ain't real I'm positive"
"heck , we don't need these carter solar cells(sound like terrorists) we got oil,I'm positive"
"Heck, global warming ain't happening,I'm positive"
"heck, screw Hans Blix, I'm sure we'll find something,i'm positive"
"Heck ,we can win this war in 6 months"
"Heck the economy is sound as a pound,to use a limey phrase,I'm positive"
"heck, he's a grinning monkey who likes base ball and can't read execution warrants ,He'll make a great president,I'm positive"
"heck paliniolitic thinking might just be right for this country,I'm positive"
Great maybe americans could do with learning to be less positive.
Or better still realistic.
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To #39, Faryedcat,
There isnt.
Bush is goig to Texas to write a book. Cheney is probably going back to being a CEO for the company making millions in Iraq.
Peace
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35
"Heck all these medicines in one day I must be healthy,I'm positive"
36 to be
The GOP have been living on planet x for some time now.
like he says
"it's the prozac dummy"
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Optimism/pessimism are nothing more than crystal ball gazing and no-one, except the Reagans, ever took that stuff seriously.
After all, when Dubya was enthroned hardly anyone knew that 9/11 was around the corner. Wait 'til the future happens before you start making predictions.
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Or, to quote Gazza - "I've never made predictions and I never will".
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZvG-0Y7GCg&feature=related
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in reference to Ragen taking the humour out of the whitehouse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ5te0CVBgY&feature=related
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Every so often America throws off its past: Jackson ended the patrician Presidency in 1828, the Civil War (other things apart) set industry free from the shackles of agrarianism, FDR harnessed the power of government in a country that barely envisaged it, and so on. Obama has shown that even a Democrat can win without the white conservatives--and the defeat of gay marriage has shown that liberal causes can't prevail either without widespread support amongst non-whites. Conclusion: 2008 has broken white power.
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Thanks to all you who do not live in the United States for being so concerned for our psychological status.
Maybe one of these days you will all start turning the microscope on yourselves to find out why polls such as this invoke such hostility and negative assumptions.
As an American who has lived in Europe on three different occasions, I can assure all of you reading this that the American optimism might be one of the most important attributes Europeans could benefit from if they tried some positive thinking for themselves.
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Wonder what book Bush is to write ?
Bubba the cowboy goes to Washington ?
Maybe his buddy Dick Chaney can do the illustrations ?
Perhaps a pop up in the center of Wall Street collapsing ?
Its not over yet there are 90 regulations that Bush is pushing to take effect prior to the close of his administration .
look for the pardoning of former Governor George Ryan the day before the inauguration among others
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Bush is leaving the white house, of course there is reason for optimism. Even republicans are happy that they wont be the Butt of all jokes for the next 4 years.
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#10 eightypercent
The question is : will that influence continue or have we come to a turning point in American hegemony ?
That all depends on what we mean by hegemony. The USA has lost much of the popular spontaneous support it traditionally received in Europe as a result of it's foreign policy and militarism. Then again it never really needed that support as the ruling elites normally 'behaved' (and it's debatable that it needed that!). The American idea of Capitalism has taken a hammering - banks are to be nationalised and there is talk of nationalising its once famous car industry. The latter will end in tears (as any Brit will tell you) because you can't force people to buy a certain product they don't want. The strong dollar may put more pressure on the American economy.
However, I can see the US reinventing itself and creating a new hegemony. Recessions create the necessary socio-economic upheavals which clear a path for future growth. The bigger the recession, the bigger the upheaval.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9NHN9gj-No&feature=related
more ronnie reverence
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"Just look at how totally freaked out they were about Pres. Bush. It was as if the sky was falling." toby792
And look how wrong they were! Here we are eight years later and everything's just hunky-dory! Well, give or take two unwinnable wars, the mother of all financial crises, America's reputation abroad at a historic low, and the institutionalisation of spying on citizens, kidnapping, torture, and indefinite imprisonment without trial as instruments of policy. Admittedly, the sky is still in place, although eight years of cretinous anti-scientific stupidity on Bush's part with regard to the threat of anthropogenic climate change may be seen in future as a bigger crime/blunder than any of the others I've listed.
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Hero,
Might be a longish wait.;-)
ed
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Until the limits to US government power are recognized, optimism is not justified.
Protecting 'We the People' from it the drug is as stupid as it sounds. This policy presumes power beyond right or reason.
Good people and bad people do these controlled substances, yet only the behavior of the bad is 'observed' and then presumed to be the cause. This is an insult to the intellect on many levels.
The policy arising from these presumptions have crippled our nation and the world.
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lol @ post 40 jacksforge.
exceptionalism is a good thing, in the sense that one believes in the unlimited potential of oneself or your nation but its true exceptionalism conflicts with realism too many times.
The whole idea that although it has happened to everyone else who did the same thing it wont happen to me is a bit too much. thats how iraq was invaded 'we will be greeted as liberators' although everyone else was not.
thats how we got 'the fundamentals of the economy are strong' despite record job losses, forclosures, a budget and trade deficit.
thats how some of these faulty free trade agreements were signed as well, which now has american leaders scampering to find a lucrative industry to call their own and recover some of these lost jobs. 'green jobs anyone?'
Negotiating bad deals for yourself believing that no matter what you sacrifice you will never lose because you are 'exceptional' is dangerous, but it has been the way of doing things for years.
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Well said, Justin.
We, in a sense, do live in 'the future tense'.
But we also now have enough history behind us to support an optimism based in reason.
I live in county that is lovely, prosperous, peaceful and comfortable. It has its share of real problems, and will not be immune from the coming downturn.
But, 200 years ago, it was howling wilderness, a place where the first settlers had to wrest their living from an unforgiving setting. No help from Washington could be expected. They had freedom, work ethic, and a Constitution that guaranteed that they could build their lives and fortunes, and keep the rewards to pass to their families. Some of them rest in a cemetery close by my house, and the surnames on the markers are commonly found in the county.
This place has been through grinding hard times since--a Civil War, economic downturns, sending the cream of its children off to wars, the list goes on.
We're still here, and even with the current problems, our lives are unimaginably better than anything those initial settlers could have dreamed of.
We will go through some severe times in the near future, no doubt about it. But that is no reason to abandon optimism, or vilify the optimists among us.
Good insights, Justin. Don't let abusive people call you names.
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Meanwhile...... The British Pound will but $1.46 (if you hurry)
Peace and Bailouts
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Empty chairs...
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Major didn't have any supporters.
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#36 toby , i hope you read this,
the sky did fall for many americans in the last 8 years have you not noticed?
what more national crisis do you need. in the past 8 years their has been 9/11, katrina, and the worst economic condition since the great depressions.
Katrina : The incompetence of Katrina caused hundreds of lives to be lost, lack of action by the feds and state caused this situation to be a lot worst than it is. Lets not forget that while people were still swimming in the merky flood waters of new orlean waiting for rescue and while bodies still floated around, The president was in washington congratulating FEMA for a job well done (apparently he didnt watch the news).
9/11 : worst attack on america ever, its rumoured than Bush received a briefing from a subordinate about the possiblity of this attack and dismissed it , in his own words saying 'good you have covered your ass'.
But regardless,
where is bin laden? torture at guantanamo and abu ghraib, how many prisoners at guantanamo has been charged with anything after some 5 years, how many have been convicted?
Now the US is faced with the idea of closing guantanamo completely partly due to the mistakes of the Bush admin that has discredited this location.
how many days has it been since that mission accomplished speech? sorry i meant years. Now nato is consdering negotiating with the taliban, iran is stronger than ever, still no idea when troops will leave iraq.
how many military families in mourning, because they lost their child in a war that has still not yet ben justified(the reason for engagement keeps changing)
enough said.
Economic Crisis: worst since the great depression, how many have lost their homes? how many more will have to give up the whole idea of retirement now that their 401k is worth less than toilet paper? For them the american dream is dead.
(and if you dont think the the bush admin is to blame for this read this : http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27121535/ )
I suppose you will dismiss msnbc as a 'liberal biased' news source, but biased or not it is the facts and its on public record.
So yes, for many the sky has fallen, maybe if you took off the partisan shades you have on you would see that there is a lot going on out there.
its not about who is a liberal,conservative or libertarian the man who makes decisions at the top can have a great impact on many lives.
whether or not you look to the government for leadership, one serious blunder by the man in charge can make you lose everything.
But its ok, its easy to blame all the countries ills on 'liberals' instead of looking at things for what it is.
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If Obama runs his White House like he ran his campaign, I think we'll see some amazing things come out of his administration. I like how he puts Family First, (note, NOT Country First). I voted for him because I just liked his attitude about what America should be.
I'm still waiting for Palin to shut up. Now that she doesn't have as much to lose, she is talking to the press? That's as tacky as her winking problem. If she is the 2012 nominee, I'm unregistering as a republican.
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56 MO
I forgot
"heck ,we can send all the pollutin jobs overseas and it won't bite us in the ass,I'm positive"
and
"heck,we can just run call centres because them forners wont figure out how to speak english,I'm positive"
thanks for the reminder
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The positive spirit is derived from the innate respect that most Americans are intelligent enough to recognize in this gifted young leader who conducted a brilliant "high road" campaign utilizing all of the new technology available. Our whole world has, indeed, changed with the election of this creative compassionate man. How happy I am to be alive and along for the ride as an Independent.
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"But, 200 years ago, it was howling wilderness, a place where the first settlers had to wrest their living from an unforgiving setting." - OldSouth
The people your ancestors stole it from may not have seen it that way.
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Obama?s Chicago Boys
Peace and strategyed
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MAII -
"This is the first time in my long life that I've felt the chances for human survival are ominously slim"
The irony is that they have always been ominously slim. They are always ominously slim, they always will be ominously slim. The only difference between now and any other time in human history is that more of the potential reasons for our extinction are of our own making. We still live on a knife edge, each of us just a few percentage points of chemicals away from death, our species perched precariously on a rock that could detonate at any moment, or be impacted by other rocks, or washed by radiation from a star that died before we knew they were more than pretty lights in the sky.
If you thought about that all the time, it would be bound to worry you. If you thought about it all the time, you'd go mad.
Simon21
Like it or not, the things that happen in Washington will have as much impact as they generally have. The USA has been involved in two wars for the best part of eight years and it has affected Joe Average not at all. If you look back through history, you'll find that the central concerns of the general population have not changed - we still need a roof over our heads, we still need clothes on our backs, we still want food on the table. None of that has changed since the invention of roofs, tables and clothes.
The biggest changes come when those things are threatened. Mr. Obama's actions in Washington will only impact the population when he does something to affect those things. Failing that, Wall Street and the High Street are going to be the keys to how the population changes and what it does. To a greater extent, the President doesn't affect the day to day life of the population unless they let him.
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@ #4 eightypercent
Wonderful stuff. P. J. O'Rourke is one of those writers I always immensely enjoy reading even when I disagree with 90% of what he has to say. Even when he's making Coulteresque arguments implying that conservatives are the only sane people, he still makes me smile. It's like William Hague - I wouldn't want him in a position of power, but he's always entertaining and eloquent. BoJo too, for that matter, though he somehow *has* ended up in power.
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Ed, are you saying that you don't you trust the Democrat-controlled Senate oversight committee to hold the banks to account?
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13 - Marcus
"The only difference between the world as it stands now and Titanic is that they had a band."
I've co-opted your Titanic analogy and hit the ground running with it. How appropriate. How funny. How true....
80% - optimism is not always called for. How many optimists have been so pleased at their concept of the future that they've not noticed either warning or opportunity for survival. Now...build a boat?...find a cave...? ...check on which neighbors have the best food supply...? Fortune favors (not only the bold, but) the crafty.
I'm very pleased that the calm Obama and not the irascible McCain, is going to be in charge, but one man can't turn the tide of everything that's wrong.
BTW, my idea of an "optimistic" Republican looks and acts like the croc in Disney's Peter Pan. Such a nice smile too.
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"But, 200 years ago, it was howling wilderness, a place where the first settlers had to wrest their living from an unforgiving setting." - OldSouth
Are you speaking of the remarkable natural environment that was ravaged by European settlers?
P.S. - My Cherokee forefathers would like to thank Andrew Jackson (and his ilk) for "wrestling a living" away from the indigenous people who were making a pretty good living as it was.
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As an Independent, what most depresses me is the Conservative's insistence that the GOP is still what it was 30 years ago, and their refusal to see the Republican party for what it has become.
This mindless dedication to an organization that long ago stopped being about freedom and is now about profit for the Elite at any cost to the Nation....
Well, it's just a shame P.T. Barnum didn't live long enough to meet today's Conservatives!
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#57 oldsouth, like many conveniently refer to the history of the nation as if the land was empty when europeans moved in, or perhaps the natives with whom they negotiated with for the land (at gunpoint) are not actually people.
The howling wilderness was someone's home, and if you asked some of the few remaining descendants of these people, the actual first settlers, you would hear another version of the story. one not so romantic. the journey of every american is not the same.
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# 70 Deeperwell - glad you read it - I understand that he's not well and it doesn't sound as though the state of the Republican is helping him any.
Agree about BoJo - as some other lefty wrote 'you try as hard as you can to hate him - but you just can't'. Jon Snow interviewed him this evening and JS ended with a sloppy grin all over his moosh.
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#74, joshkin2001, I have to agree with you.
From my point of view, both parties have drifted
off to the extremes, and both are about bigger
government intrusion into our lives.
As far as optimism goes, I'm optimistic for my
own situation, because I'm in a very independent
position. However, I'm not optimistic about
the future for the country if these trends towards
extremism continue.
As an example, I work with one company which
is now planning to lay off 800 Americans and
ship the jobs offshore. Their top management
does not see the US as a safe place to invest,
with all of the rhetoric about "sharing the wealth."
And, now, another company that I work with
is planning to send 4000 jobs overseas, and
move their corporate headquarters out of the
US.
I worked long and hard to keep these jobs here,
and now the Democrats are doing everything they
can to destroy them. If this continues, we're
going to have a well paved road that leads to
a very hot place.
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"...another company that I work with
is planning to send 4000 jobs overseas, and
move their corporate headquarters out of the US.
I worked long and hard to keep these jobs here,and now the Democrats are doing everything they can to destroy them."
Whoa! Talk about blinders? Did you not notice how many jobs have ALREADY gone overseas thanks to the Republicans?
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Bailout stinks to high heaven, I still think it is the last gasp stripping of US wealth before the lackeys are unseated. *&^%$#@
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Jeez, Guns - you are outrageous. Didn't you hear what Obama had to say about companies shipping jobs overseas ? Opposing that was a major part of his platform.
And isn't it a bit premature to blame the Dems when they don't even take over until 20 January ? Get real.
Obama's words have hit home in the UK where there is a real flap going on about coming American protectionism.
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#77 All the "sharing the wealth" rhetoric came from GOP campaign scare mongering and is for the most part BS (oh yeah, Joe the Plumber was a good source), the Obama platform proposed reversion to tax rates from '90-91 for brackets above $250,000 adjusted income. What congress will actually do with the tax code is as usual anyone's guess. That may depend on the three pending senate seat results. Can't imagine which off-shore country is reaping the benefit of the relocations you mention, but a "safe" place to "invest" right now may be hard to find.
Wish people could tighten their belts, roll up their shirtsleeves, and maybe take a little less of a margin to get the world through this instead of running around like cockroaches after crumbs, scrabbling to the dark corners when the light comes on...little piggies.
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#69 - Dark Side
"The irony is that they [chances of human survival] have always been ominously slim. They are always ominously slim, they always will be ominously slim. The only difference between now and any other time in human history is that more of the potential reasons for our extinction are of our own making. We still live on a knife edge, each of us just a few percentage points of chemicals away from death, our species perched precariously on a rock that could detonate at any moment, or be impacted by other rocks, or washed by radiation from a star that died before we knew they were more than pretty lights in the sky."
It's all SO interesting! Did you know for instance about the caldera under most of Yellowstone? Which probably won't get us before we wreck everything ourselves....
I like the line about life on Earth in Lilo and Stitch, "...they're very delicate. In fact every time an asteroid hits their planet they have to start life all over again."
Oh, dear. I'm in a Disney mood today. For everyone's sake, I'll switch to Douglas Adams:
"It is an important and popular fact that things are not always what they seem. For instance, on the planet Earth, Man had always assumed that he was the most intelligent species occupying the planet, instead of the *third* most intelligent. The second most intelligent were of course dolphins who had long known of the impending destruction of earth. They had on many occasions tried to alert mankind but their warnings were mistakenly interpreted as amusing attempts to punch footballs or whistle for titbits. The last ever dolphin message was misinterpreted as a suprisingly sophisticated attempt at doing a double backflip through a hoop while whistling the star-spangled banner but in fact the message was this: 'So long and thanks for all the fish.'"
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#81, no, frayedcat, this is affecting a lot of people
who started companies and built them up from
scratch. They are organized as subchapter-S
corporations, so their income is reflected on
their individual returns.
People like this guy.
Once again, the Democrats, like the Republicans,
had a perfect opportunity to come in and make
things better, but they seem intent on destroying
themselves and hurting ordinary folks.
As far as "GOP rhetoric", some very smart people
have analyzed Obama's plans, and it just doesn't
add up.
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Actually it goes to two very un-"wonderful" facts about the U.S.: first is the Republican Party and secondly, the Democratic Party. And there's not a 'dime's worth of difference' between them. So of course, many Republicans are optimistic about their future, Obama Copacabana and more importantly, those behind the throne that pull his strings will be serving the interests of rich Republicans every bit as much as McCain. Pragmatically, right-of-center Dem's like Obama & Co. may serve the establishment even more effectively, at the moment. Because of the false media spin about him as an agent of "hope" and "change" it will be easier for him politically to say no to any new significant social programs or cutting the military budget or ending American interventionism around the globe and all the other un-wonderful facts about America. So of course, the elites in the Republican Party can rejoice, the Duipoly Party has won again and everything so un-wonderful about America will remain largely as before and polular disenchantment will be hidden beneath the new facade of phoney "hope" and "change".
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#77,
Democrats are actively trying to destroy jobs? I have a hard time believing that, and I'm a Republican. Why would Democrats want to hurt their own country, their own countrymen, their own economy?
I do believe that most Americans, regardless of political bent, want the best for the US. They just disagree (almost violently, these days) on how to go about it.
In my opinion, the outsourcing of jobs has two sources. First, the American people themselves embraced the Wal-Mart culture of gimme gimme gimme for less and less and less cost. How were suppliers supposed to discount their products more every year when the cost of business naturally rises? Moving abroad for cheap labor was the only way for some manufacturers to stay afloat.
Second, there is a problem with corporate greed. The company my ex-husband works for is an excellent example. They employ about 1,000 workers in a community that generally has higher unemployment than the national average. Even in this economic climate, they bring in a net profit close to $100 million per year. There are no shareholders to pay, just the three company founders. Now they have decided to outsource an entire department to India, not to keep the company from going under, not to remain competitive, but to increase the profit margin. Several dozen skilled workers will lose their jobs, and there are precious few companies in the region that will require their skills and offer them jobs. This from a company that preached to its staff about how they were family and helped make the company great.
Oops, okay, I'll stop now. Didn't mean to rant, but I just *so* see the blame for outsourcing missing the mark.
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#80, 80%, I'm familiar with all of Obama's rhetoric.
What I see is a fascistic system being set up
whereby a few ultra-wealthy people stand to
benefit from Obama's policies, while small
businesses are forced to sell out to them.
I friends on both sides of the fence. One of my
old bosses was up on the stage with Obama
the other day when he made his first speech.
In spite of the fact that I would probably benefit
from this new form of government that Obama
is pursuing, I am adamantly opposed to it.
My sentiments are with the small guys that start
great companies on their kitchen tables. Not the
fat cats (no offence to Sam.)
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#77 Gunsandreligion:
"As an example, I work with one company which
is now planning to lay off 800 Americans and
ship the jobs offshore. Their top management
does not see the US as a safe place to invest,
with all of the rhetoric about "sharing the wealth.""
Right, like if McCain had one they wouldn't have outsourced the jobs. This kind of thing has been going on for years and its about enhancing the bottom line at any price. What I want to know is when all the jobs have been moved off to some near slave labour factory/call centre in the far east who will be able to afford all those good and services?
The 'free market' in labour is a flawed as the free market in financial instruments. You can have too much protectionism but you can also have too little, does it really make sense to allow the economic base of your society to be destroyed just to add a few points to share prices?
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#83 Guns and Religions "This Guy" needs to get a better accountant perhaps if he is making less than $250,000 but showing more than that on paper as sub-s pass thru income. Sounds like a revamp of health care benefits premiums would be very very helpful to him as well. Noble if he is truly cutting his own profit to keep his employees working- RIGHT ON! Not sure who you can blame but certainly this harm is current and has been building for a long time - the replacement administration is not even in yet. For sure the "housing bubble" and imbalance in US wealth problems have been topics deeply explored for years, and denied and ignored by politicians and banks who were claiming things are fundamentally sound, and that there was no global warming, despite years of learned warnings to the contrary.
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Justin Webb writes at the top of this page "the world can learn from the positive spirit of (many) American Republicans.
But Guns & Religion proves him wrong.
Replace the phrase 'positive spirit' with 'bitterness'
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#87 - Guns -
Fascism would seems more suited to Republican philosophy. Big business and all that. True they (the Republicans) give lip service to a smaller government but actually use heavy-duty control.
Besides, wasn't the Right screaming "Socialism" at Obama during the campaign? Can't have it both ways.
If your own "sentiments are with the small guys," that would more suit Socialistic governments which attempts to eradicate class divisions and make things more "fair" to the common man.
Socialism, when it descends to the more extreme Communism, and Fascism alike - in actual practice - wind up with everyone's necks under a governmental boot except the big guys in charge.
Which makes me wonder about the current administration's destruction of our economy. Economic collapse should benefit the Fascists, so they must have really expected to handoff to another Republican.
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Both the United Kingdom and the United States managed to recover from crippling Depression and a very draining war. I don't know what the future or even the few months will hold, but I believe it can be endured.
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I've just seen GW Bush on the news saying "What's needed isn't more government, but smarter government."
Coming from him that pretty much amounts to an admission of failure.
The words 'Bush' and 'smart' don't really go together in most people's minds.
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36. At 4:21pm on 13 Nov 2008, toby792 wrote:
"For a liberal it's a different matter. Liberals look to the government as their source of prosperity in life and so if their guy loses then they think it's all over. Just look at how totally freaked out they were about Pres. Bush. It was as if the sky was falling."
I was very upset when he was relected and then I thought, well; what's the worst that can happen? He has been the worst thing that has happened to the U.S. in a long time. That example you used was not a good one if you were trying to illustrate a valid point. He has helped crush our economy and it's affecting me in a direct way. As for your comment on self reliance, I am a liberal and I am not on welfare...and I have never been on welfare. Shocking. George Bush really preached that conservative self reliance when he gave 700 billion dollars to overly greedy banks and insurance companies. Give me a break on the republican core belief system, it has many flaws.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
You have to be optimistic if you live in the United States. You have to be patient because you know if you wait long enough thins will change. Barack Obama is proof.
But optimism has its price and its wisdom. We could not have a person holding office who thinks in 20th century terms--a dinasaur in terms of thinking, or a near fascist that did not want to recognized that racial times had changed and that the entire population was no longer interested in fighting the War of the Roses on native soil. If the Reptilian Right Wing wants to go to heven, that's alright. But maybe the rest of us want to stay a little long in our own private hell right here on Earth, a better place without you. And that it is you that it making it hell for all the rest of US.
Peace and blessing from The Left Behind Crowd.
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@ #91 -
Well, the UK recovered from a very draining war; objectively speaking, WW2 was the best thing that ever happened for the US. A revitalised economy and military, emergence as a superpower, credit in the moral bank that would last at least until Vietnam, and all this without the real danger of invasion that the other Allies faced. Yes, I know the US soldiers fought bravely, but it was still a win-win situation.
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#13
Marcus,
GWB has as much experience as anyone in the POTUS role. 7 years and 10 months. Why would you be concerned about experience today? Ability, intelligence, character are different issues. But experience is a given for the next 71 days.
KR,
Ian
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#83
Guns,
That guy either sucks or his tax guy does. There is no way you can make $250k on 'paper' and take half that home unless you are an idjit.
Sorry, doesn't add up.
Accountant Sam
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Speaking of optimistic Republicans, CNN had this:
"Palin: I'm proud of Obama and pray for him"
"Former Republican U.S. vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin has said she is optimistic about Barack Obama's incoming administration and that she prays for the president elect and his family."
The article says,"...she had no fears for the United States under his presidency."
So all you Palin fans can take a page from her notebook. Personally, I hope her prayers for the incoming administration carry more weight than those she prayed to become VP.
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As for the role of optimism over what we've done to our planet (read: our only life support system), MSNBC reports:
"Thick brown clouds of soot, particles and chemicals stretching from the Persian Gulf to Asia threaten health and food supplies in the world, the U.N. reported Thursday, citing what it called the newest threat to the global environment."
"Caused by the burning of fossil fuels, wood and plants, the brown clouds also play a significant role in exacerbating the effects of greenhouse gases in warming up the earth's atmosphere...."
Goodnight and good luck.
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#77
Guns,
Rarely do I disagree with you. However I would observe that if a company is currently choosing to put 800 jobs overseas because of a fear of 'sharing the wealth', the business is either:
a) making deicisions based upon a 3% marginal tax rate on the wealthy, which is interesting
b) making excuses
I suspect b, because a just doesn't make sense for an outsourcing or offshoring deal.
Consultant Sam
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Sean's Pa (71),
The committee is (as yet) empty of members.Nessie (73), Well said.
G 'n R, Don't you think the decisions you bewail are largely the result of present and recent circumstances, and thus down to the Republican mileiu? I am not the only one here, I suspect, to feel you need some help. I hope you find something to brighten your spirit.
Peace and a fine malt
ed
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G 'n R (and all),
And part of every dollar spent at a Walmart goes to pay some overseas wage.Maybe this explains it: Wal-Mart Defies Retail Slowdown
Peace and the Race to the Bottom
ed
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Ed, so the committee is empty. I would suggest that it shouldn't be. There had to be a rush to pass the bailout, but there isn't a need to have timely oversight? Now why is Congress so admired?
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Well done! Emanuel apologizes for father's remarks
Peace and courtesyed
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Sorry, joining the conversation late, but I'm not quite following the logic of the original post. How does optimism = American exceptionalism?
Yes, at least some of us are optimistic- but how does this relate to the beaten-to-death metaphor of that shining city on a hill? That Providence has a special place for us, that we are Destiny's hope and a vision for the World?
And are we really that much more optimistic than any other nation? Is America just the boorish tourist?
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Smile
;-)
ed
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Optimism is Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State. Yes please.
A wonderful choice! Go Obama Go!
Obama has to hit the ground running. Therefore, we need the names of the other members of the cabinet/administration ASAP. It has to be by end of Nov so the guys and gals can get up to speed and going on Jan 20.
Agenda: Jan 20, 2009
Day 1: Inauguration - Everyone moves in. Every one happy.
Day 2: Stimulus package
Day 3: Announcement: Withdrawal from Iraqi down over a period of 1 year.
Day 4: Close the torture camps
Day 5: Jobs jobs and more jobs. (Improving infrastructure, give out the tax incentives to hire new staff).
W/E - sleep sleep.
Day 6: Healthcare
Day 7: Education/College (Get the puppy)
Day 8: Overturn decisions that are easy to do (if required) that Bush signed off on.
Day 9: Address Congress and The Senate
Day 10: Address the people of US
W/E - have a rest and relax with the family.
Peace and Hope for all
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SamTyler1969 at 1.
Never mind sam. "The One" has been planning for years to soak up the youth unemployment in any unfortunate recession which might occur. See his great wisdom:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0B7dOQwKm0&eurl=http://patdollard.com/2008/11/discovered-2006-audio-obama%E2%80%99s-chief-of-staff-describes-mandatory-civil-service-pla
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I'm back from a business meeting.
Before continuing, I would like to say that
we are basically in the bad position that we
are in because of bad, non-reciprocal trade
agreements. The Republicans, as well as
the Clinton administration, bear the responsibility
for those agreements.
But, all I am pointing out is that the Obama
administration appears to be more of the
same - concentration of power in the hands
of the few, disguised as populism.
As far as the 800 jobs goes, they're going because
Obama is raising the corporate income tax
rate, while every other industrial country
is lowering theirs. We have to realize that
we are competing on the world stage with
everybody on earth for the industries of the
future. Nobody is going to jump through hoops
to invest here - there are many other places
for them to invest.
A lot of things, from health care to tax laws
have to change for the better to keep these
jobs here, and the consensus of opinion in
the international business community is
that Obama's proposals are wrong.
At least, that's what I'm running up against.
Sometime, Sam, when I'm in the big apple,
perhaps you could give me the benefit of
your wisdom as to how to keep some of them
here. I just lost a big battle (O.K., 800
jobs may not be a big number to some, but
it is to me), and so now I'm going to chill out
with a glass of wine, and try to figure out
how not to lose the next one.
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As a postscript, if you want to know my views
on trade policy, read any of Clyde Prestowitz's books.
A good one to start with is "Three Billion new Capitalists."
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#103, that's exactly right, Ed. Unfortunately,
the Clintons were on the board of directors of
Walmart, so guess who is writing our trade policy.
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If any of you might remember my angry campaign blogs you might have thought I could never wish Mr, Obama well, that's wrong, I sincerly wish him all the best. I still believe the USA Supreme Court now demands he must provide a valid birth certificate by December 1, 2008 and this could cause huge problems, even a race war here. It is not that I'm against Obama, it that I know the Constitution must come first. Also the huge expectations for Mr.Obama are very UNTEALISTIC! Here is the dirty little secret about American politics, you have to SELL OUT to win. Finally, even with the goodwill and high hopes of so many of us, Omama is STILL a mystery for most Americans? We just do not know what will happen next! The evil ones will test President Obama and America... we are hearing very harsh reports and soon. America needs all the help from our Mother Country now...Britains are the only other nation that stands with and helps America through thick and thin, for better for worse, we turn to you for advice and council all the time as true, loyal friends. WE have a huge fight coming on us again, it appears from many sides and forces. God have mercy on us, for just trying to be ouselves! I relaize many foreign people now in the UK and USA may not understand or care for my beliefs. but I know they need no explaination to most of you---we stand together as family. There is no better friend to America than Britain.
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As an American I wish that I could share in the expressions of optimism about Barack Obama and the future. So much is expected of Obama by Americans and parts of the rest of the world that he would need to achieve divine status to accomplish it all. The U.S. has been so decimated by the Bush/Cheney regime that nearly anything will seem to be an improvement.
Unfortunately, the pre-inauguration signals being sent out by Obama largely portend more of the same. His support for the Bush administration's expensive and badly written bailout packages which primarily benefit the privileged belie his campaign promises to the less well off. Infusing taxpayer money into the auto industry, which is in dire straits because there is little demand for its product, is an exercise in economic lunacy, especially since increasing numbers of people either cannot afford new vehicles or are so cowed by the prevailing economic situation that they are unwilling to commit to such an expenditure. His staff appointments reflect "status quo" rather than the promised "change." His promise to pursue al Qaeda even into Pakistan, if fulfilled, could destabilise that country. His promise to Poland to continue building the missile "shield" will further antagonise Russia and that entire expensive and unnecessary venture is a boondoggle in the making.
Hopefully Obama may be able to accomplish at least a part of his promised agenda. But, as the saying has it, the jury soon will be out deliberating.
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I've been optimistic for a long time, even before Obama won the election. The one advantage of being an ant at the bottom of a bowl is, all directions are up. Bush was such a bad president that the difference between the candidates was 'better' (McCain) and 'much better' (Obama). There was really no way to go wrong.
If Obama applies a little Keynesian sanity to the economic mess that he will inherit, I predict a bright future.
... at least until American's become over-confident, assume nothing can go wrong, and elect another idiot.
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Americans are eternally optimistic. We could all learn something from that.
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# 108 Susan Bird
That's a tight timetable !
What you didn't really mention is the inauguration speech which - given the turmoil on all fronts - is going to be vitally important.
I believe that we can take a lead on it from the sobriety of the acceptance speech.
If he is as responsible as I believe he is, he is going to have to talk to the world about hard decisions and difficult choices. I have been comforted to read that a majority of Americans understand that a lot of the aspirations are going to have to wait until we have all found a way out of the current mire.
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Will Obama be able to reverse what bush done?
Is Bush trying to do some things before his last day that will prevent Obama from being successful?
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ref #85
I won't deny the problem of corporate greed.
But don't forget Union greed and coruption.
Besides making cars no one wants. The U.S auto induustry is in trouble because of the ridiccolous Union contract.
Toyota and Honda wisely don't have them.
I am not in favor of the car company bailout. I would want for myself if thats the rule.
But if they have one, some set rules should be.
1. New leaders in management
2. Make cars that fit economic reality
3. Put research into alternative energy and electric cars
4. Break all Union contracts and let them operate on level plaaying field
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# 115: Scott_From_Columbus wrote:
"If Obama applies a little Keynesian sanity to the economic mess that he will inherit, I predict a bright future."
It must be due to reading so much about this birth certificate nonsense, that I actually read "Kenyan" instead of "Keynesian".
Actually, at Bretton Woods, Keynes proposed a world currency, and that in order to sustain it, he wanted financial stimuli to not only stop countries from having budget deficits for a specified time, but also to stop countries from combining trade and budget surpluses for a long time? In view of what has happened in the last 30 years, it is notable that the chief opponent of that last part was the United States. Interestingly, the Eurozone (a partial realization of Keynes' ideal) has the first part (but does not really enforce it 100% - see the problem with Italy) but no one ever thought of introducing part two.
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As for the birth certificate issue, which someone again mentioned above (post 113), of course the Supreme Court is only asking an answer from Obama and the other "defendants" to Berg's appeal, which is what they always do, and (after allowing Berg to reply to those answers) there will be no court case unless at least four judges want one. It will not be so difficult for the defendants to give some kind of answer: they could simply quote the verdicts of the two judges (in Ohio and Virginia) who dismissed the case against the respective Secretaries of State not on the STANDING of the filers, but on the MERIT of the case. Note that if four judges were to take the Berg case, the Supreme Court would only be able to rule on the legality of the Berg verdict. I.e. on whether Berg had standing or not in the lower court, not on the birth certificate or all the other documents Berg wanted to see.
Google, which tries to find out what end users' personal preferences are, creates parallel worlds, I am afraid. It explains a lot of this nonsense.
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There seems to be a big buzz going around that HRC is in the running for Secretary of State.
It is possible that, in the same way that the presence of Bill tipped the balance away from her VP prospects, Sarah Palin is now helping to tilt the balance towards Hillary.
There is a good case for the Dems to let their toughest female to take centre stage - and I believe that Hillary would be a formidable Sec. of State.
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# 121 Paul
Nonsense is the right word.
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Paul,
Me too. ;-)As to HRC for Sec of State, I must confess doubts, not least due to a tendency to belligerence. Time will tell...
Peace and diplomacy
ed
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"Yes, at least some of us are optimistic- but how does this relate to the beaten-to-death metaphor of that shining city on a hill? That Providence has a special place for us, that we are Destiny's hope and a vision for the World?" - Via-Media
Possibly JW doesn't understand what "American exceptionalism" means.
rwbennett@113,
You're no "family" to me, nor I think to most Brits, who would recognise your paranoid ramblings for what they are. The UK "stood by" the US in invading Iraq because our PM, Blair, acted as Bush's poodle, to the disgust of most of us.
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So is exceptionalist optimism really just denial or dumb faith? We went from gold standard to T-bills, and T-bills now have no value - is the world now on an oil standard? If so then the priority the Obama campaign put on alternative energy makes sense. If so then the Carter (OPEC) analogies to Obama's administration make a little sense too, specially with the Vietnam war costs/Iraq war costs parallels. Wonder if there will be a trend to 'protectionism' or if they'll move to a cooperative 'world-fix'. Listening to consultant interview yesterday it sounds like once a wealthy nation heads toward a 'bankruptcy' that will be a trigger for the IMF since world ignores the plights of the smaller poor contries.
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Justin Webb is truly in awe of America - the United States of, I mean. More than that he is gaggingly over the top with his view of America at this time...He forgets it was U.S. greed that got us into this mess; greed and lack of oversight. It was the Americans who dragged us all into Afghanistan, and the "Coalition of the Willing" into Iraq. It is the great U.S. of A that has NOT inspired the world since WW II. Exceptionalism...yes in some ways...mediocrity in others...and downright abysmalism in the rest.
Glad to live in Canada
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#110 gunsandreligion
Are you sure Barack Obama is going to raise corporation tax ? This suggests that he's going to lower it but it's dated 10th Nov and perhaps it's been superseded or I've misunderstood what you meant.
#125 Nick-Gotts
Please don't speak for me. I am British and glad we were involved in the Iraq War, in so far as anyone can ever be happy to be involved in a war.
"Most of us" (two-thirds, according to an opinion poll quoted on 'Today' on Radio 4 yesterday) do not want to be involved in the Afghanistan War. I (again) approve of it in so far as one can approve of a war.
I wait to hear cries that Gordon Brown is Barack Obama's poodle and so forth when that war is (apparently) intensified as seems to be Barack Obama's wish.
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Interesting reaction from Ed as to Clinton belligerence. Did Bill run an aggressive White House ? According to Tony Blair's team, they had to spend months and months persuading the US to intervene in Baltic ethnic cleansing.
What other examples were there in 1992 - 2000 ? I am prepared to stand corrected.
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#113 rwbennett
You know, I wouldn't worry.
Even if by some miracle there is some irregularity in Barack Obama's nationality - and I believe it would be a miracle given the scrutiny the topic has had - all of the important people in the USA, whether by wealth or power or both, have a powerful interest in social cohesion and the prevention of unrest.
They would do something which afterwards would have you saying - O yeah, why didn't I think of that.
Thank you - as a British person - for your goodwill and I'm glad you see a good prospect in Barack Obama.
Many people prayed for him before the election, everyone must pray for him now.
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# 129
You mean "Balkan" ethnic cleansing.
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#129 eightypercent
I think you meant 'Balkan' ?
Apparently Bill Clinton was furious when Tony Blair 'bounced' him into a ground war in Kosovo. He wanted it to stay airborne.
The incident which had some time here was the missile attack on the pharmaceutical factory in Sudan which was seen as a scandal at the time because it might heve been used as a distraction from the Monica Lewinski affair. I don't know whether that has a grain of truth to it but it's what some of the press said.
I do not believe the Sudan bombing caused many casualties but there are those who disagree. On an earlier thread it was alleged that 'tens of thousands' were killed in the aftermath (due to lack of drugs) but I have seen nothing to confirm anything like that.
There were also attacks on Afghan camps.
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chill0, the Obama team has said that they are
going to raise corporate taxes... Whether or
not they do that is something that we will have
to wait and see.
Sam, the 800 jobs are not really outsourcing. They
just see greener pastures elsewhere (China.)
With 1.3 billion customers, and very low
labor costs, they just want to move out of
the US.
And, now what I'm seeing is that the
Chinese are copying our model of venture
financing, with home-grown venture firms,
and they are actively courting US venture firms
to invest in China.
For some time now, it has been impossible to
get venture financing without doing most of
the engineering in India or China. These are
the really important jobs because they involve
new technology.
As for myself, I am going to talk with a company
that I do business with about a little spin-off.
I have an idea for a product that I can do by
myself. I may go off to the middle of nowhere
and just crank it out. No employees, just me
and my cats.
I'll be just fine, but I worry about the rest of the
country. I see too big a division between the
wealthy in this country and the middle class,
and using the IRS to "redistribute the wealth"
is just going to chase a lot of the wealthy out
of the country.
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80%,
I was referring to HRC's bellicosity during the Primary campaign. She seemed to be trying to out-macho the males, and I did find this somewhat to the point.
Didn't she make some rather disturbing threats about Iran? Personally, I just don't think she is Secretary of State (Foreign Secretary) material. I did se elsewhere that she should perhaps take on Homeland Security, and then could cross swords with Weasel Lieberman...
In fact, her "experience" in Foreign Affairs is minimal, and there are many better qualified folk available.
Peace and Speaking Softly
ed
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#129 eightypercent
Haven't all the post-war administrations been belligerent? I'm hoping to be surprised by Obama, but I doubt it.
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#132 chill0
You could also add the regular bombing of Iraq. Not to mention the other various bombings on Iraq given silly code names (like Operation Desert-Fox, and the embargo).
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#116 thats what prozac is for. wheeeee
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"Many people prayed for him [Obama] before the election, everyone must pray for him now."
- chill0
Personally, I intend to sacrifice a goat for him at the next full moon; it'll make just as much difference as praying, and I get to eat the goat.
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chill0,
I made no claim or attempt to speak for you. I simply, and correctly, noted the majority British disapproval of Blair dragging us into Bush's war in Iraq.
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Eightypercent
Here is the most interesting piece I have seen on Al Shifa, the Sudanese pharmaceutical factory.
It suggests it was an intelligence failure caused in part by a personal grudge.
Others have suggested that the Clinton Administration knew it was the wrong target when they launched the attack. I think this suggests that is not so but that it was the wrong target.
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And Obama won't be short of advice,...
Peace and keeping one's counseled
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127. At 1:20pm on 14 Nov 2008, CBCANADA wrote:
Justin Webb is truly in awe of America - the United States of, I mean. More than that he is gaggingly over the top with his view of America at this time...He forgets it was U.S. greed that got us into this mess; greed and lack of oversight. It was the Americans who dragged us all into Afghanistan, and the "Coalition of the Willing" into Iraq. It is the great U.S. of A that has NOT inspired the world since WW II. Exceptionalism...yes in some ways...mediocrity in others...and downright abysmalism in the rest.
Glad to live in Canada
------------------------------------
I hope to.
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133
" heck these Chinese will never figure out how we did it, I'm positive"
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eightypercent at 122
Ah the Obama Certificate again.
The US constitution, article II section I, says a candidate for president must have qualifications as follows:
1/ You must be 35 years old
2/ lived in the country for 14 years
3/ Be a natural born citizen
The only documentation produced by Obama relating to 3 is a Certificate of Live Birth posted on the the daily KOS website.
The problem is that there is doubt about the abbreviated C.O.L.B., some claim it is photoshopped, for example:
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/07/atlas-exclusive.html
The only document that can conclusively prove the matter would be a physical registered copy of the *full birth certificate* which is sealed and held under vault in Hawaii.
I don't think the Berg lawsuit will force the issue, because Obama can afford a huge legal team and they only need one legal technicality to stop him.
Berg's position for what its worth is on a video on his website posted 13th November.[long, 30 mins plus]
http://obamacrimes.com/
It just seems odd that Obama dosn't just release a registered copy of the full Birth Certificate - If Obama is a natural born citizen, then that document would blow Berg and his lawsuit out of the water.
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The republicans are humiliated, and I can only think that thier "positive outlook" is just a guise for something decietful down the road. I think they will put thier tails between thier legs and work with the democrats for awile, but it won't be for the good of the counrty, it will only be for the good of the republican party. Take everything they do with a grain of salt, they can be very shifty.
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in reference to this nation that needed to be subdued by the honourable white people, as Old S t suggests.
Is this the nation full of weird political thinkers. the people that created Israel on someone elses land because they think that "well it did belong to them, once".
Take from the Original Americans .
I think you should get together with Gherkin &co and discuss why america should not be given back to the Origional Americans.
As we did (supposedly) with so much right in Palistine/Israel.
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"prozac, drug of the nation,
breeding ignorance and causing medication."
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#136 dceilar
I have read a great deal of John Pilger in my life and I think now I'd like an opinion independent of his on what he says.
He says in that piece, for instance, that half a million children were killed by the UN sanctions on Iraq. That is, I believe, based on the change in infant mortality during the sanctions. The UN introduced the notorious 'Oil-For-Food' (OFF) program in Iraq to counter the humanitarian effects of the sanctions.
He does not mention that that change in mortality was confined to areas of Iraq where the Saddam Hussein government administered OFF. Infant mortality in the autonomous Kurdish regions in the north were also studied and they had declined.
After the Iraq War healthcare spending rose 30-fold but from a very low place.
In the first of the Johns Hopkins' reports on the death toll in Iraq, they significantly did not blame any shortcomings in the postwar healthcare system for mortality. It was much better than Saddam Hussein had provided. He used the OFF money for other things.
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i think hillary should stay in th senate, i dont believe that anyone should remove strong senators from the senate, its a bad strategic move. The new york senate seat will also be up for grabs for a strong republican candidate if hillary is taken out. New York is a strong democrat state but Republicans has had success there from time to time. If Hillary is taken out of the US senate to be on Obama's administration expect Guiliani to step in to compete for that senate seat.
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Justin just look at the republican optimism.
Why were it not called "Has america got hope"
Oh only slightly negative in tone really this one.
Or but you don't like being criticised do you?
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#138 & #139 Nick-Gotts
I am vegan. Please leave the goat alone.
I am also agnostic but I see no harm in prayer.
The 'accuracy' of your assertion on British opinion on Iraq depends on when the asking is/was done and who does the asking.
To be specific, the Iraq War had majority approval in the UK for a long time after it started. It took what I would call an unrelenting media campaign and some major stupid decisions in Iraq to change that.
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Oi clinton was another Baby boomer .
Than god if they get out of politics.
Sorry folks things could get worse.
Gw wants us to spend again it seems. "through growth" as the solution for solving things.Growth growth.
Growth is not sustainable I am sure Wendle would have plenty to say on that.
Americans bought those Crap cars , the industry gave the lemmings their cliff.
G&R your boss is fooling you.
Seems they just want to be in China because america is to risky because things are so crap and america is well out of resources .
Clinton was atrocious for this country, shipping jobs abroad, but the repub congress and house at the time were also to blame.
Money is made shipping factories and much wealth created during clintons was that style of "wealth".Computers to allow jobs to be overseas.
I suspect that if the US put tax up it will still be below most countries.and that most lowering will still be higher than the Us.
Tax Havens is that what you are saying, they are going to some ultra low tax place. Well thank globalisation.
great stuff.
Or are they just grumpy republicans that can make money anyway so say screw them .I'll show them for voting dem.
Good American companies should only be considered good If they keep jobs here.
If not people power-don't buy.
Wally world (sprawl mart)kills factories.
They all fight to under bid- eventually go under because margins so low and Wally moves on feeding at the trough of capitalism and free trade.
Once they claimed to be "american Made " cloths.
Strange how few americans remember this, but I was visiting here at the time and remember the scandle when Wally world was found to be selling Made in (somewhere else) cloths.
there were questions about lying etc.
People complained "we'll lose our jobs"
that was when there was the first trade tower attacks.
Keep kidding yourselves.
How about screw financial crisis and start on the planet, as long as thats getting sorted jobs will come.
how about screw investments and insurance firms and build solar, give them the money.
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back on the birth certificate crap how bloody desperate.
sad delusional sometime off on prozac. that the GOP.
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145 well said.
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eightypercent (#122), I find it odd that HRC (and also John Kerry) would be considered candidates for Secretary of State. It's not a consolation prize. Our best Secretaries of State have not been those who aspired to become President. Examples are Colin Powell, Madeleine Albright, George Shultz, George Marshall. Presidential aspirants who became SS include Edmund Muskie and Alexander Haig.
I'm sure HRC could do it, but I don't see her as being the ideal type for the position.
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Ha ! I return to the blog to find that I have started a whole new previously unthought of war in the Baltics. Sorry Baltic States - stand down now.
We shall await the Secretary of State announcement with great interest - and see.
And as for the birth certificate : Let.it.go.
Mr. Berg does not deserve the attention he gets for his attention-seeking theories.
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Sorry but xxxservicedman
You were for mc cain a Panamanian.
And screw all those arguments coming we went through this before go find a real lawyer.
America has not fully decided what the law on natural born is, that is in flux.
natural born , naturalised through birth.
there is even a slightly different ss numbering on this. at one time in the not too distant past and maybe till now.
I have found this out because I would be in the same position as Mr cain as an american born overseas.
Military bases are not covered in the same way as diplomatic embassies.
There are arrangements etc, but it is not sovereign soil because it is a military base.
No one cares because why would they. He is as american(mc Cain) as you get, he served his country in war, he served as a politician for his people.He served(some would say himself) Let him Run why waste time on it.
Shame the optimists on the other side the GOPpers seem to think that Obama's birth certificate is not the original .And do not believe those that thought to check.
to quote the last paragraph of
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/
"But step back and look at the overwhelming evidence to the contrary and your sense of what?s reasonable has to take over.
There is not one shred of evidence to disprove PolitiFact?s conclusion that the candidate?s name is Barack Hussein Obama, or to support allegations that the birth certificate he released isn?t authentic.
And that?s true no matter how many people cling to some hint of doubt and use the Internet to fuel their innate sense of distrust."
From the LA times.
"That was because he was born outside the United States and, therefore, not native-born, as presidents must be constitutionally.
McCain was, in fact, born in a U.S. military hospital in the Panama Canal Zone, where his father was serving in the Navy. That was, in fact, American-controlled territory at the time.
More importantly, his parents were both American citizens, so he could have been born on Mars and still been an American at birth. And a sense of the Senate resolution took care of any lingering doubts.
Now come the rumors about Barack Obama's birthplace, that he was really born in his father's native Kenya, so like Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, who was born in Austria, he can't become a U.S. president.
Same rule would apply as for McCain. Obama's mother was an American. So is her son."
mccain.the American controlled territory of panama leads some to say that geographical basis is not valid. But who cares. His parents make the man.
PS originals get destroyed when town halls and stuff burn. does that mean some unfortunate person who's town hall got burned down by the renovators(lol that is always the cause) can't run for office.
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chill0@151,
Majority UK opinion was clearly opposed to the Iraq war before it started. Once it had started, there was a "rally round the troops" shift of opinion, producing poll majorities in favour. Once it was clear to most people that the war was based on lies (of course this was clear to many of us throughout), opinion swung back and has remained opposed ever since, AFAIK. Your "media campaign" is a right-wing invention.
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151
yea and cliare shorts left the cabinet because her hem was unfraying.
this guy will wind up you on the right and a few on the left.
http://www.johnpilger.com
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151 chillo
a vegan into war?
well that's independent thinking.
It's ok as long as you don't eat what you kill.
hmm
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155 I agree.
then I don't really like HRC much.
or bill
advisors around for lunch yes, power,no.
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"The world can learn from the postive spirit of (many) American Republicans."
A rather stupid thing to say considering what has happened in Iraq and Afghanistan. I get the feeling Americans thought it was going to be like the start of Friends where everyone's dancing in fountains when they invaded their countries. I think I'll stick with a bit of British sceptism. Sometimes I don't think Webb thinks things through.
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#148 Chill0
I have read a great deal of John Pilger in my life and I think now I'd like an opinion independent of his on what he says.
He says in that piece, for instance, that half a million children were killed by the UN sanctions on Iraq. That is, I believe, based on the change in infant mortality during the sanctions. The UN introduced the notorious 'Oil-For-Food' (OFF) program in Iraq to counter the humanitarian effects of the sanctions.
You're showing your bias. The Oil-For-Food programme was proposed and supported by the USA; as the programme was a disaster the Right Wing blame the UN!
Your post at 140 you link to a Slate article that praises the work of Christopher Hitchens. I have read him many times before (and I would like an independent opinion on him!). I've never agreed with him (either in his left wing Socialist Worker days and his present neo-con nonsense phrase), he tries too hard to be controversial, he's arrogant, and is mostly wrong. If any sane person had to choose between him and Chomsky's arguments there wouldn't be a contest. Hitchens can never say the same thing about the same thing - the man's an intellectual fraud!
At 151 you say the Iraq War had majority approval in the UK for a long time after it started. You fail to mention that leading up to the war and immediately after it the British public were against it. They supported the war to support the troops.
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# 158
Nick Gotts is spot on in his resume of feelings in the UK towards the Iraq War.
I'm glad I raised the Secretary of State issue as there has been lots of interesting comments. I remain of the view that with the Hillary Clinton OHB might be best served by the old LBJ theory of having her in the tent p....ing out rather than outside p....sing in.
I'm afraid that her belligerent stance during the early primaries was a Mark Penn ploy to show that she was as tough as any of the boys. It's a shame that her team persuaded her to take that line because I think she's better than that. Interestingly, Alistair Campbell makes a point of describing how he bowed to her world knowledge and her diplomacy in his memoir.
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The only thing EXceptional about Americans is tha they can get other peoples to fight their battles.
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Re #103,
I will not go off on another anti-Wal-Mart rant...will...not....
I have been saying for a few years now that Wal-Mart does manufacture one thing itself, locally....its customers. Its business approach ripples through the economy, squeezing suppliers and jobs and income. Eventually, even people philosophically opposed to Wal-Mart's practices come to a point where they can't afford to shop anywhere else.
It would be great if we all stopped shopping there and were willing (and able) to pay extra for American-made goods manufactured by Americans making a living wage. Yeah, would be great... But we can't afford it.
And this thread was originally about American optimism, wasn't it? We'll see.
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Just to show Hitchens' contradictions here's a long piece I wouldn't be bothered to read, so here's a quote: The odd thing -- and I wonder why it didn't occur to me more forcefully then -- was that, the more Chomsky was vindicated, the less he seemed to command "respect."
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Chill0,
To be specific, please provide evidence to back this assertion.And, Speaking of getting spending....
Peace and homemade gifts
ed
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re #119,
I am ambivalent about unions.
My father's experience with them as a member of one in the transportation industry was rather poor. He paid high dues and didn't feel like the union leaders knew what they were talking. He saw them as opportunists, I think.
My mother, on the other hand, worked in an unskilled position in long-term healthcare. The national corporation she worked for never conceded anything without a fight, even the tiny cost-of-living raises they got each year. The union was the only reason she was making a whole 15-25 cents per hour above minimum wage, even after a decade in her job.
That being said, I am unfamiliar with the exact circumstances of the unions in the auto industry. I do hear people say that the unions are crippling the American auto manufacturers and making it impossible to fire bad workers. I don't know...
I do not support an auto bailout in the US either way, because bailing them out won't change the fact that they made the choice not to invest in technological advances when Japanese companies were clearly doing just that. If they wanted a future for their companies, they should have invested in the future. Foreign companies will always be able to beat the US on price, so we should have been competing on quality and innovation. Everyone saw this coming.
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Palin is singing a different tune now that she is readying herself for 2012. In fact she may be in the New Congress come 2009. She has toned down the Fascist rhetoric that she ran on in 2008 in her bid for VP. She is now allowing African Americans and Hispanic Americans and Jewish Americans to be REAL AMERICANS.
But be careful I heard an interesting comment on NPR today 11/14 about "Shylock International Bankers" and their relationship to the US economy. The Show was ON POINT. The moderator had the good sense not to cut the caller off because he knew that stiffling hate speech only makes it grow. But we in the US are in for some critical times.
Obama has arrived just in time. And because WE all, who are sane, believe that he is EXCEPTIONAL as a person and a speaker, know that he will prove his metal.
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Re #125,
Ah, yes, Blair. I have to say I personally felt touched that he made a point of being present when GWB formally addressed the nation immediately after 9/11.
After that, I was just at a bit of a loss. Quite a few of my British friends understood why we wanted to go into Afghanistan. None of them understood our (president's) deep need to go into Iraq...and drag everyone in with us. It was political suicide for Blair, and I never understood why he did it.
Disgressing only slightly, we have an irreverent cartoon here called Little Bush featuring childhood versions of the current White House administration. In one episode, little GWB introduces little Blair to his parents, saying that he loves the fact that this kid does anything he tells him to. Blair's response: I find your son so fascinating.... I suspect that its the type of fascination we have with a gooey science project or a trainwreck.
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Right Ed - so that's Friday November 28th.
No spending Day.
I'm happy to give it a try but I'm afraid that people will just go out on the Saturday and spend double.
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Re #127,
Come on now, give some of us a break. Remember, about half of us disapprove of what's been going on for the last 8 years.
Remember also that this is a *lot* of people. The population of your country is roughly equivalent to the population of my state. The US population is 5 times as large as the UK's. I'm not bragging about numbers now (wish they were lower, in fact), just making the point that there are roughly 100-150 *million* Americans who wish we had done much of this if not all of this differently.
And if our country moves any further toward fascism, you might find quite a few of us on your doorstep asking if we can move in. (puppy dog eyes) We're housebroken....
(disclaimer: uh...yes...I have personally looked at goverment websites about emigrating to Canada. On the other hand, I really enjoyed living in the UK...
further disclaimer: I am apparently, undeniably a RINO.....)
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I take exception to this:
Peace and Toleranceed
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# dceilar
For all the noise he makes, Christopher Hitchens has changed his position too many times to be taken seriously at the moment.
Did you download the P.J. O'Rourke piece I flagged up ? ("How we blew it" - online now from the Weekly Standard - even better when you think that William Kistol as the publisher of the Standard can't refuse P.J.' s piece).
At least our Republican Party Reptile is addressing his wounds without squirming.
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144. At 3:28pm on 14 Nov 2008, exserviceman wrote:
It just seems odd that Obama dosn't just release a registered copy of the full Birth Certificate - If Obama is a natural born citizen, then that document would blow Berg and his lawsuit out of the water."
Obama is the next President of the US whatever mr berg tries to do.
There is no issue - he won the election, his opponent conceded, he is going to be president.
Everything else is just so much wind
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As a registered Republican, I am not optimistic about Obama based on what he said. He is a radical socialist with a congress that is radical and corrupt. With the most powerful propaganda machine in history (the modern media), the disaster of his presidency will be blamed on Bush and other Republicans. They will continue the 'smokescreen' dance of concentrating their reports on issues such as Palin's warddrobe while ignoring the pandering to Unions and kickbacks from corrupt corporations. The US economy is hurting not because of the Bush policies, but because the dems forced mortgage companies to make loans to people that could never repay. The biggest culprit being Fannie Mae. The top 5 recipients of money from Fannie Mae are Democrats with Obama as the #2 recipient.
Bush's biggest fault is that he doesn't defend himself. Even the weather (Katrina) was blamed on him. When we went to war in Iraq, 78% of Americans supported him including an enormous amount of Democratic Congress. He and Blair don't have the luxury that we have of changing their mind. They have to live with the consequences. Now that we're winning it, it is hardly reported.
I'll never understand people's dislike for Palin. Maybe you dislike the serious issues such as her warddrobe or her accent. ARe you going to criticise a brilliant woman like Condi Rice's hair do or makeup? We live in a world where the media can sway public opinion any way they want and as sheep we fall in line.
I for one am not a sheep and will continue to vote Conservative knowing in my heart that the 'political correctness' movement that has been sweeping the world is the death nell of domocracy.
So, to all you Chamberlin's out there that think that the US and your own governments are the true tyrants in the world, just know that we true capitalists will continue to fight your fight so you can protest against us as the bad guys.
Aside from that, I hope Obama proves me wrong and that I will be pleasantly suprised.
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"5:49pm on 14 Nov 2008
The only thing EXceptional about Americans is tha they can get other peoples to fight their battles."
Yes, I've noticed the groups of Americans on every street corner of every major city in the world, heartily exhorting the citizens of other countries to get out there and fight the good fight, with their cunningly devised arguments and slick reasoning. In some parts of the world you can barely move for one on one discussions taking up space in the cafes and coffee shops. It's amazing.
If only the American government could employ those fiendish disputants along the Pakhistan border. I am sure the Reasonable Discourse offensive would take everyone by surprise.
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# 174
The Catholic Bishops - as usual - are doing themselves no favours, particularly in the light of the child abuse revelatations of recent years.
As we have seen in European countries like Ireland, France and even Italy, people take comfort from their religious beliefs whilst sidelining the increasingly extreme views of some (but not all) of their Bishops.
I don't know whether Joe Biden would describe himself as a secular Catholic but I would have thought that his family example (with the obvious matriachal influence of the elderly Catholic "Momma Biden") was proof that faith can live in politics.
The Bishops are a marvel - with their current outcry they must have put off another whole generation of potential caring priests.
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Simon at 176
If by some accident Mr. Berg's lawsuit leads to the Supreme Court of the United States finding out that Obama is *not* a natural born citizen, as required by the US Constitution, they have the power by a simple majority vote to decertify the election.
If Obama has knowingly stood as a candidate for POTUS while knowing he was not qualified to do so then he has also committed a crime. The DNC might find themselves in *very* hot water.
Since the court has a somewhat center-right political balence currently, they may decide that the constitution is not "so much wind" as you put it.
However, I don't think it will come to that as the Berg lawsuit only needs a single legal technicality to stop it. There would have to be a bad mistake from Obama's lawyers for them to miss all the errors.
So I basically agree that Obama is safe but disagree on the reasons why.
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Mdalerwill,
I'd look for somewhere a little less densely populated, if I were you. England is the fourth densest in the world , and most crowded in Europe. Scotland is both saner and does have some of the least crowded areas in Europe...Some perspective...Peace and Breathing Space
ed
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Obama is about as radical as Richard Nixon and a lot less corrupt. However, it is exceptionally satisfying to know that the right-wing kooks who actually believe their own propaganda about him are just going to have to put up with him anyway.
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174 Ed Iglehart wrote:
I take exception to this:
"COLUMBIA, S.C. ? A South Carolina Roman Catholic priest has told his parishioners that they should refrain from receiving Holy Communion if they voted for Barack Obama because the Democratic president-elect supports abortion, and supporting him "constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil.""
______
Ed, look at it this way : there is still a great number of people in the US having supported Palin only days ago, and probably still do.
FWIW, 38% pro-Palin in the exit polls.
In an environment like that, it's hardly surprising that such ideology still has a sound footing.
Religion is what people make it, you could even call it an indicator for a society's progressiveness.
Organized religion interfering with politics is a great issue even nowadays, be it the Middle East, SE Asia or the USA.
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Nothing wrapped in nothing
Peace and fifteen minutes of fame
ed
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Why would Hillary want to be Secretary of State?
Why indeed?Peace and Patience
ed
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# 185
Hmmmm.
Sort of proves my point. We shall see.
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148. At 3:36pm on 14 Nov 2008, chill0 wrote:
#136 dceilar
I have read a great deal of John Pilger in my life and I think now I'd like an opinion independent of his on what he says.
Thankfully I've read little of Pilger. But I've read enough to know that he is a propagandist, omitting whatever info doesn't suit his agenda. The example in your comment reinforces my impression of him. It is well known that the monstrous Saddam was the one responsible for the death of those Iraqi children. Either Pilger was ignorant of that fact or deliberately withheld it. Either way, he's no journalist.
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The reason Americans live life in the future tense is that the present tense until November 4, 2008 had little to offer them. This joy we now feel is because the Lord has or is about to deliver US from the grip of the Reptilian Right. These people have had US in its grip since 1978.
They love to brag and envy Ronald Reagan and tell more lies in his name than the Nazis told about their Furher, when Reagan was a Realist.
They brag about the conservatism of William F. Buckley when he denied them before his death. It was God's punishment to let Buckley live to see what the Neocons did to America. He help promote and encourage this bunch as traitors within the gate. They in turn took advantage of a man who graducated from Yale without even opening a book. So much for higher education. He in turn terrorized the West and East more than Al Qaeda ever could. With them all you need is gun; with him, it is too late.
But the world must maintain its optimism if we are to escape this financial terror gripping the world. Put your faith in yourself and your ability to weather any storm and learn lesson from history, not just listen to the next one offering you a Ponzi Scheme into instant riches, because like in the present: A FOOL AND HIS GOLD SOON PART.
Keep the faith.
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Ed # 134 , 185
How can you start again on Hillary when you know for sure that her Sir Lancelot has taken a time out from the blog to have an operation. I find your links below the belt punches, so feel I must respond and defend the witch.
She is wonderful, and if she had not had Bill, pantsuits, beers and shots, supported the war, praised Mccain etc etc etc she would have beaten that left handed wizard hands down. Obama was just a Dick Darstadly type! Like Darstadly he concocted a plan and set traps so that once he got into the lead of the "election race" he made sure no other candidate could catch up to him". Expect to be thrown the gauntlet from D_C next week if Hillary does not get a good job.
BTW Happy 67th birthday whenever it was/ is! Know it is about now. Hope the red fellow got a piece of cake.
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#127 CBCANADA:
I'm glad you're in Canada too. Please do us all a favor and stay there and freeze you butt off. And don't try sneaking across the border either.
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But then again, I don't remember anyone seriously suggesting that Thatcher or Blair was the anti-christ, which some republicans have done with Obama.
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#190
That made me smile. I wasn't aware that illegal immigration from Canada was an issue. After all, *they* have so many jobs that they're running employment and immigration workshops for skilled workers who are fed up with the long wait to get their American visa.
On the other hand, they have a problem with *us* crossing the border as supposed tourists and using fake address information to obtain free healthcare.
So don't *you* try sneaking across the border. You might get me caught.
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#181
Ed,
Thank you for the links.
Interesting that when I was growing up the movement toward zero population growth was everywhere. Now we hear about the cost burden of an aging population and the dangers to the West of being out-bred by the Third World.
There is a tremendous resource problem in the western US, especially in regard to water. Yet no one is willing to suggest that maybe there is no way to accomodate *that many* people in a dry climate.
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The concept of American exceptionalism has been distorted into a credo of omiscience and unaccountabilty.the Bush years was the zenith of this false philosophy and the people were easily deluded as they became self indulgent and irresponsible.The US because of it's natural resouces ,size and spirit of innovation is capable of great achievements under serious and intelligent leadership.Unfortunately the political leaders have been of inferior quality ,venal and self serving while seducing the people with a diet of bread and circuses.The day of reckoning has arrived with the fury of the ancient gods to redress the arrogance of the US for attempting to steal their fire.Time for a renewal of spirit with a dose of austerity and reality.Cautiously hopeful.
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183, U128.
"COLUMBIA, S.C. ? A South Carolina Roman Catholic priest has told his parishioners that they should refrain from receiving Holy Communion if they voted for Barack Obama because the Democratic president-elect supports abortion, and supporting him 'constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil.'"
Roman Catholics are not as doctrinaire as protestant evangelicals. If they were, then a majority of them would not have voted for Obama. I don't think many of them will pay attention to that S. Carolina priest. (My great-grandmother, who was a Catholic, had all sorts of home remedies for abortion. Also the first condom was made by an Italian Catholic.)
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191, kyber.
The advantage to being an atheist is that you don't have to worry about the antichrist, for obvious reasons.
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this is for the gherkin
do you ever wonder?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/review/7695956.stm
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144
This blather again?
One more time: If his birth certificate were an issue we would have heard it from McCain and Simple (hmm, what IS the Bush doctrine?) Sarah. Don't you trust them to recognize a real opportunity when they see one?
(They certainly used enough non-issues - a real one would have been refreshing.)
Second: As long as an incoming infant has at least one parent who is a U.S. citizen, the child is born a U. S. citizen.
I repeat: As long as at least one parent is a U.S. citizen, the child is born a U. S. citizen.
In case you missed it: As long as one parent is a U.S. citizen, the child is a U. S. citizen.
Soeven if he'd been born in Kenya - or (gasp!) in the UK - he'd still be a real, honest to God, U.S. citizen.
Really.
Got it YET?
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191 - Oh, yes, the anti-Christ business. What you have to remember is that Republicans could never even come close to winning if they didn't appeal to (and scare the pants off of) some fairly - er - let's say - gullible people.
But now that Palin has said she's "proud" of Obama and praying for him, that should confuse the less analytical portion of their constituency. After all, praying for the anti-Christ would be a little odd to say the least.
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193
"Yet no one is willing to suggest that maybe there is no way to accomodate *that many* people in a dry climate."
We're going to send them to Canada.
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191. At 10:24pm on 14 Nov 2008, kybernetikos wrote:
But then again, I don't remember anyone seriously suggesting that Thatcher or Blair was the anti-christ, which some republicans have done with Obama.
lol but to be fair the Tories did portray Blair with devil horns and those eyes.
Still UK says no calling people the devil it would have been false advertising;)
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198, Nessie.
Yes, if a child has one American parent, the child is American. But to become president the child must be born on American soil. Obama was born in Hawaii before it was a state. They made a fuss about that, but it didn't work. The next ploy was to say he was not born in Hawaii. (So where else could he have been born? Kenya?)
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More perspective on Emanuel
Peace and Time will tell
ed
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Surely Palin's U-turn strengthens the case for Obama being the antichrist? After all, the latter is supposed to deceive even many among the elect. And maybe the "doubt" about his birth certificate arises not because he was born abroad, but because he wasn't born at all!!!
Talking of which, it has been most amusing watching the various responses of the raving righties here and elsewhere to Obama's election. Some, like our own dear exservicemen, cling to the pathetic belief that his election was in some way flawed, and might yet be overturned. Others persist with their fantasies that he is a "radical socialist", plotting to subject the USA to a Stalinesque reign of terror. Others again (like Chuck Norris in a recent WorldNetDaily screed), imperiously order him to implement the policies of the theocratic right (which they describe as "governing from the center"), rather than those he was elected on. And there are indeed blogs claiming he is indeed the antichrist (just google "Obama antichrist" and have a good laugh).
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nessie1945 at 198
The point Berg makes about the "one US parent" situation is that under the law at that time the sole US parent must be 19 years old to confer natural born citizenship on a child born in a soverign third country.
Ann Dunham was 18 when Barack Obama was born - so hence the problem.
I am not a lawyer, and I can't tell you that Berg is right or wrong, or even that he has quoted the right law.
I very much doubt S.C.O.T.U.S. will even pick up the case directly unless there is a fumble on the goal line by Obama's layers.
As for Mccain using the issue, forget it. Mccain pulled at lot of punches, especially on Rev. Wright. If it had been Romney as the republican candidate you would have heard "God DAMN America!!" morning, noon and night, and "US of KKA" "US Gov designed AIDS" before your cornflakes at breakfast time.
There is also something about the way Wright and Pflegger's did a little dance/jig after they hit a punchline in their church speaches, a golden Gift for any twisted TV political add designer/editor.
There is also a video on youtube where someone has cut Wright's "week after 911 speech" inbetween the twin towers being hit, the Flight 93 crash site and a burning Pentagon. It is completely devastating, it gets you right in the gut, chokes you up.
In a very real way I am relieved Mccain spared us from that. It would have poisoned race relations in America for 10 years.
I say this from the UK, but can no one in the US see that it is an act of patriotism to pull a victorious punch because the ends do not justify the means?
It is no surprise to me Mccain was not interested in this low level stuff - he expected the independent media to investigate any qualifications problems.
A massive over estimate in the integrity of the average US Network TV journalist in my opinion.
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#192 mdalerwill:
I noticed the immigrants you referred to chose the US, but had to settle for Canada because of the long backlog of people trying to get in here.
It makes me wonder why Canada has such a hard time getting workers to come to Canada. With such a large land mass and a relative small population one would suspect things aren't as rosy as you would have us believe.
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The problem with globalization is that while corporations and finances went global politics remained local so corporations played countries off against one another. We've somehow been persuaded that its okay to destroy industries and dump people into unemployment or minimum wages jobs so you can buy a pair of jeans for less than £5; of course the small problem that if it keeps going no one will even be able to afford those prices is irrelevant. Globalisation is the ultimate bubble, when it bursts it will dwarf the current problems.
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One thing about many Americans that may explain their optimism is that deep down each feels pretty certain that with something to eat, and a warm place with a roof in the winter, yer gonna git by.
In my locale a man gets more respect if he can repair his own car than if he has a fancy suit and a big house (those are 'pansy a$$es). So these guys can grow something, shoot and dress a buck, put up a shed (under a bridge like grandpa during the depression)... and git by.
We've forgotten our grandfathers' Great Depression...only just. Maybe in Europe memories of hard times are a little more fresh.
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allmymarbles at 202
One phone call from Obama to a lawyer in Hawaii, one certified copy of the Vaulted birth certificate and a press conference.
Thats all it takes to put the issue to bed for good.
Its the secrecy that drives speculation and law suits.
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#205 Exserviceman:
"I say this from the UK, but can no one in the US see that it is an act of patriotism to pull a victorious punch because the ends do not justify the means?
It is no surprise to me Mccain was not interested in this low level stuff - he expected the independent media to investigate any qualifications problems.
A massive over estimate in the integrity of the average US Network TV journalist in my opinion."
And I say this from the UK; that has to be the most pathetic excuse I've read on the subject of the birth certificate. Since you seem to have forgotten the very basics of how a civilized society works let me remind you; it is up to those who make such accusations to provide proof, not for the accused to show their innocence. So you produce a Kenyan birth certificate, a Kenyan newspaper announcement, or a Kenyan hospital record, and if you can provide none of these have the decency to drop this myth once and for all!
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#209 Exserviceman:
"One phone call from Obama to a lawyer in Hawaii, one certified copy of the Vaulted birth certificate and a press conference.
Thats all it takes to put the issue to bed for good."
Do you really think the posters here are that naive? We all know that five minutes after the press conference you would have been posting all sorts of conspiracy theory excuses to doubt the authenticity of the certificate, and to reiterate it is the job of those who raise this issue to furnish proof not the other way around. 'Extraordinary claims require extraoridinary proof' so kindly put up or shut up!
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Neighbour,
Aye!Some hae meat and canna eat,
And some wad eat that want it;
But we hae meat, and we can eat,
And sae the Lord be thankit
Slainte!
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One man's optimism is another's blind trust and naivety.
Yay Americans are optimistic! Or maybe they're simply just not paying attention. The truth can hurt, so let's all bury our heads in the sand.
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Nate Silver gets a deal
Peace and Just Rewards
ed
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210 AsaScot
"...it is up to those who make such accusations to provide proof, not for the accused to show their innocence."
I wish I'd said that. But not to worry...I will.
Also, people not living in the U.S. might have no idea of how sue-happy people in this country are. It doesn't seem to be too hard to find an attorney (thick as autumn leaves on the ground) to file a suit about anything.
True, occasionally a lawsuit gets thrown own for having no merit, but that's more rare than it should be. It may depend on the personal POV of the judge. Sad but true. I used to date a very right-wing judge, so I remember some examples...
And why you might ask, would I date someone so far right that their opinions were abhorrent? If I were to tell you, my post would be moderated so fast it would make your head spin. In my defense, I was younger then.
"A natural born citizen"doesn't seem to say anything about (1) mom's age or (2) U.S. soil.
"No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."
As to evidence that McCain or Palin chose "the high road" as someone suggested: Kidding, right? And very funny!
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I read the CBS take of your article you are writing about here. Such a poll tells me the over all intelligence and awareness of the American Citizen is pale to even say naive.
Governments and I don't care what government are totalitarian bureaucracies with the military in direct control of every issue to intervene and implement straight down a police state's chain of command.
Simply the quote: "You can fool some of the people some of the time but not all the people all the time. " Points to the one true fact that all governments are propaganda based and benevolently disguised in the well wished hopes of it's public.
Politics is a pure propaganda to sooth and calm the public saying that whatever that is going on, it's for the good of all when it isn't and only benefits a few at the expense of all others.
Elected offices are without power of their self and are only ceremonial and nothing other.
Mind control dominates the citizen to such extents there is no freewill and every thought that fills their lifetime has been censored and demanded to be used.
Humanity is given their idols to give their substance to and ambiguous rewards for their lifetimes of suffering and self denial.
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And furthermore:
Romney was born in Mexico to U.S. citizens
McCain was born in Panama to U.S. citizens.
Obama was born in Hawaii to a U.S. citizen.
Hawaii is, and was at the time, a state, but if it hadn't been:
"And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens." - Naturalization Act of 1795
Obama's mother: citizen
Obama's father: legal resident
Well, that was fun, but I've got to stop being suckered into arguments that are, at best, right-wing wishful thinking. Besides, guys if you bumped up Biden into the presidnecy, he could just choose Clinton as his VP. Pelosi's 3rd in line....
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Very interesting posts. But I feel a lecture coming on . . .
I get the impression that many see the idea of American Exceptionalism as simply a cover story for arrogant or imperialist attitudes. To the contrary, the myth of American Exceptionalism is an arterial conduit straight to the heart of the unique character of the US (well, so says I, anyway!).
Exceptionalism is a myth rooted in the Puritan project of spiritual self-transformation through the building of a new social order, where the distinctions between secular and spiritual aspects of life became remarkably intertwined. The New World was just that: a place where, through spiritual transformation and hard work, an "empty" wilderness would bring forth a New Jerusalem, a model society free from the corruption of the Old World the colonists had fled, and a shining beacon of hope for the eventual transformation of all mankind.
It is possible to follow this myth through American culture, and indeed to trace the diminishing influence of explicit religiosity. It is heard in the Declaration of Independence, the Preamble to the Constitution, the writings of Emerson, Thoreau, Whitman, Hawthorne, Melville, etc., etc.
All of which is to say (in my long winded fashion, sorry!), there is nothing inherently jingoistic or belligerent about the myth of American Exceptionalism. When being critical of its degraded expressions, one can in fact invoke its highest manifestations as a way of persuading those who intuitively understand the narrative to live up to the noble promises it makes:
"Each of us is inevitable; Each of us limitless --each of us with his or her right upon the earth; Each of us allowed the eternal purports of the earth; Each of us here as divinely as any is here." -- Walt Whitman (talk about optimism!!!)
Yours,
A Canadian Pinko, standing down now
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206. lochraven wrote:
"I noticed the immigrants you referred to chose the US, but had to settle for Canada because of the long backlog of people trying to get in here.
It makes me wonder why Canada has such a hard time getting workers to come to Canada. With such a large land mass and a relative small population one would suspect things aren't as rosy as you would have us believe."
======================
Well, actually things are pretty good!
You've got all the warm water beaches, though. Maybe that explains it.
Yours,
A Canadian Pinko, waxing his skis while freezing his a** off
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Has anyone a suggestion as to why Mrs. Clinton is not being touted for Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare?
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CBCANADA
"Justin Webb is truly in awe of America - the United States of, I mean. More than that he is gaggingly over the top with his view of America at this time...He forgets it was U.S. greed that got us into this mess; greed and lack of oversight. It was the Americans who dragged us all into Afghanistan, and the "Coalition of the Willing" into Iraq. It is the great U.S. of A that has NOT inspired the world since WW II. Exceptionalism...yes in some ways...mediocrity in others...and downright abysmalism in the rest.
Glad to live in Canada"
Yeah!
Anti-Americanism is alive and well and flourishing, with Americans responsible for all the evils of the world.
It's good to see some things don't change....
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# 220 ~ because Sec. of State is higher profile - and with financial meltdown whoever takes the domestic role may be a bit stymied.
The odds on HRC for Sec. of State are shortening this morning. I don't think that the cautious Obama team would have allowed it to get this far if they didn't have a purpose - and she looked as pleased as punch when talking yesterday, wreathed in smiles.
I think it could be a very good solution all round - With Biden as VP, HRC as Sec. of State and Kerry as Chair of Foreign Relations, Obama would have a formidable team.
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rwbennett:
"The evil ones will test President Obama and America... we are hearing very harsh reports and soon. America needs all the help from our Mother Country now...Britains are the only other nation that stands with and helps America through thick and thin, for better for worse, we turn to you for advice and council all the time as true, loyal friends. WE have a huge fight coming on us again, it appears from many sides and forces. God have mercy on us, for just trying to be ouselves! I relaize many foreign people now in the UK and USA may not understand or care for my beliefs. but I know they need no explaination to most of you---we stand together as family. There is no better friend to America than Britain."
___________________________________
Yipes!
What makes you think that Britain is going to "stand by" us in this myterious fight you are talking about?
I don't know what is more confusing: your predictions of things to come, or your belief that the people of Britain are loyal friends of Americans.
Neither seems to make any sense...
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Testing ...
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Ed highlights the good news of a lucrative book deal for the admirable Nate Silver.
The bad news is that Joe the Plumber has one too.
We can have a competition as to who should receive a signed first edition in their virtual Christmas stocking.
My first place goes to exserviceman because it might take his mind off the benighted birth certificate (although god only knows what new conspiracy theory he might find in Joe's pipelines)
Second place goes to Magic because Joe is a self-confessed world expert on the Israeli issue with views which are creepily and eerily similar to Magic's.
Third place goes to Justin Webb who still hasn't paid enough penance for the 'victimhood' post.
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#51 dceilar: The banks are being partially nationalized and it isn't every bank either. The auto industry isn't going to be nationalized, they are asking that a part of that 700billion bail out be given to them.
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#60: Well what was the federal gov. suppose to do in katrina? You do realize that when it comes natural disasters the federal gov. doesn't have a lot of control in terms of what is done in its aftermath. Fema for the 100th time does not take leadership roles in natural disaster aftermaths. It is only a supporting role to the state and city governments.
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ref #222 and 225
I agree with Biden and Clnton but not Kerry.
the man is more plastic than Mitt Romney is accused of being. his major accomplishment in life after serving in Vietnam was marrying a rich widow.
Kerry is fairly ignorant and if was in a swing state he would have been thrown out on his ear years ago.
Put Lieberman in this position which would show inclusiviness and slap Senator Leahy of VT down as he deserves.
Oh and Eighty my views on Israel are mainstream in the U.S.
We know the Palestinains are at fault in the Mid-East
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#60: Your also completely ignoring the fact that the clinton adminstration also had a hand in the current economic situation too. In fact your own source within the third paragraph on the first page alreadys begins talking about person clinton appointed who wouldn't budge on the states demands. What your article is about is that the signs that this issue was about to pop was coming the early 2000's. But for some reason people like to believe that this entire issue only happend because of bush, who was following alan greenspans advice during much of the time the warning signs were begining to show, it didn't its been brewing for the past several decades. Your right though in that something could have been done sooner and something was trying to be done sooner by McCain.
As for talking to the taliban, you do realize that the vast majority of wars are ended by talking to your enemy. Its very rare that you ever completely destroy your enemy.
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# 228
For that, I'm sending you two copies.
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The gall of the likes of MagicKirin (and Chuck Norris) is astounding. Having spent months denouncing Obama as an evil extremist planning to impose a Black Power/Stalinist dictatorship, they now presume to tell him who he should appoint and how he should run his administration. Why aren't you all hunkered down in your rural hideouts with your tinfoil hats and anti-tank weapons?
"Oh and Eighty my views on Israel are mainstream in the U.S. We know the Palestinains are at fault in the Mid-East"
The rest of the world is well aware of this absurd, unjust and dangerous one-sidedness, there's no need to boast about it.
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As were thee Apache, Cherokee, and Sioux in America.....as we say in Scotland, "Aye, that'll be right!"Peace and idiocy
ed
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231. Nick-Gotts,
Lighten up a bit, can't you. Your guy won. One would think you guys would be excited and optimistic and joyful. But so much of what I read from the left here and elsewhere is full of bitterness and still in attack mode against Sarah Palin, as an example.
Republicans, on the other hand, appear to have largely accepted their defeat with grace, McCain and Bush setting the example. Even that bastion of American conservatism, the Littlegreenfootballs blog, congratulated Obama on his victory.
So why shouldn't MagicKirin and others feel they have a part in the process of Obama's administration? You seem to be content with divisiveness and conflict.
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#223 TimothyR444 wrote:
What makes you think that Britain is going to "stand by" us in this myterious fight you are talking about?
I don't know what is more confusing: your predictions of things to come, or your belief that the people of Britain are loyal friends of Americans.
Neither seems to make any sense...
I'm not sure your assessment of all the British people is correct, but it comes close, doesn't it? When real help is needed, a token help is given. Look at the British forces in Iraq and the disproportionate of wounded and dead Americans to British. It looks like the British and other foreign coalition forces are kept out of harms way while the American do the dirty work. Some help. This year so far, there are 1010 casualties. 627 are Americans and 124 are British. The rest come from 20 other countries. With friends like these, who needs enemies?
When you think how we got sucked in the war with Germany, and with all the dead, wounded and maimed, the rest of the world must rightly think we're a soft touch. When are we going to learn, we have few friends and only business associates.
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#233 trueToo:
"So why shouldn't MagicKirin and others feel they have a part in the process of Obama's administration? You seem to be content with divisiveness and conflict."
That tops even Magic for sheer nerve! As for attacking Sarah Palin, well since she failed to take the hint and disappear back to Alaska its legitmiate to criticize someone who thinks god is going to tell her whether she should run for president. It appears the Republicans are looking for ideological purity rahter than electability. Anyone else remember Michael Foot? Sure Palin dresses better, $150,000 dollars better, but in other ways I think there are parallels.
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235. AsaScot,
It's a poor debating technique to fling accusations around without backing them up. What do you mean by "nerve?" Do you think that nobody except a Democrat should take an interest in Obama's choice of staff? After all, it is going to affect a lot of people, and not only Americans.
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"When you think how we got sucked in the war with Germany, and with all the dead, wounded and maimed, the rest of the world must rightly think we're a soft touch." - lochraven
How about learning a little history? Hitler declared war on the USA after Pearl Harbor, not the other way round. While the courage of American troops is not in doubt, the USA as a state did extremely well out of WW2, which has been followed by more than half a century of US global dominance, at a comparatively very low cost in casualties.
Afghanistan is the USA's war. No-one else should have got "sucked in". All that did was enable the USA to launch its illegal invasion of Iraq.
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"When you think how we got sucked in the war with Germany, and with all the dead, wounded and maimed, the rest of the world must rightly think we're a soft touch. When are we going to learn, we have few friends and only business associates."
This is just plain insulting to every other nation that fought in the second world war. The figure below are for military losses and total percentage of pre war population who died, (got them from wikipedia, happy to provide a link if anyone feels the need) yes the USA suffered and its contribution cannot be denied but the notion that everyone else stood around while the US fought is bizarre.
United Kingdom 382,600 0.94%
United States 416,800 0.32%
Soviet Union 10,700,000 13.71%
As far as Iraq goes, well the UK has 1/5th the population of the US so surely taking one 1/5th the casualties should be good enough even for someone who measures allies solely by how much blood they've spilled?
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"Your guy won" - TrueToo
Insofar as I preferred him to John McSenile and Governor U. Betcha, I suppose Obama could be described that way. But he is not part of any "left" I recognise. Of his own accord, he would simply follow a somewhat saner version of the corporate-militarist policies of Bush; although the financial crisis may possibly force him into more radical approaches.
"So why shouldn't MagicKirin and others feel they have a part in the process of Obama's administration?" - TrueToo
Because they've been lying their heads off and screaming blue murder about how hell on Earth would ensue on his election, that's why. How many liberals did GWB appoint when he "won" in 2000? How did he reach out to the left in 2004? Certainly I want people with views like his excluded from any share in shaping events, beyond their democratic rights. They are exactly the people who created the current mess.
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#236 TrueToo:
"It's a poor debating technique to fling accusations around without backing them up. What do you mean by "nerve?" Do you think that nobody except a Democrat should take an interest in Obama's choice of staff? After all, it is going to affect a lot of people, and not only Americans."
The 'nerve' is that you posted here promotoing exactly the sort of division and accusations you now decry. If you really believe what you say perhaps you should be denouncing MagicKirin and Exserviceman instead, they have posted any number of accusations about Obama, and Exserviceman is still doing so; or does their political leaning exempt them?
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AsaScot@235,
I think you're most unfair on Michael Foot! He'd probably have won in 1983 if it hadn't been for the War of Thatcher's Face (a.k.a. Falklands War) in 1982. I'm delighted to note he is still around, and at 95 fully compos mentis, to see his scepticism about Thatcherite economics fully justified.
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234, lochraven wrote:
It looks like the British and other foreign coalition forces are kept out of harms way while the American do the dirty work. Some help. This year so far, there are 1010 casualties. 627 are Americans and 124 are British.
______
As of September '08 , there were 144000 US and 4100 UK troops deployed in Iraq.
If your casualty numbers are correct, the Brits seem to get hit a lot more than US troops .
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239. nick-Gotts,
240. AsaScot,
Funny thing is, the moderators censored the more detailed accusations I posted about Obama.
Have you never shaken hands and become friends with your enemy?
I'm hoping that Obama is going to prove me wrong and that he will turn out to be far from the subversive his past associations made me believe he would be. Wouldn't it be something if he was playing a game all along and Wright, Ayers, Odinga, Alinsky, Acorn and Farrakhan had no idea who he really was?
I'm far less concerned about being right than I am about this all turning out for the best.
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TrueToo@243,
I imagine your accusations against Obama were censored because they were libellous or racist. As you must know, any politician will meet thousands of people in the course of a year, many of whom they may not approve of. So what? I could very easily play the same guilt-by-association game with Palin or McCain, but I won't. So far as ACORN is concerned, it is evidence of your dishonesty that you are still pretending there is any case against them. I consider your change of tone, and that of those like you, an implicit admission that you were just spreading smears before the election. I'm no friend of war criminals like Bush and his cronies, or theocrats like Palin, or apologists for them like you, and I never will be.
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Ref #231
It's not a boast it's just that Americans have the moral courage to side with the right side.
The Palestinians as I have stated have to learn that Israel is here to stay. When they started acting civilized instead of choosing murderous thugs to rule them their lives will improve.
As an American I have every right to state my oppinions who should be in President-Elect Obama's cabinent.
More right than ignorant people like you
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TT
"It's poor debating technique to fling accusations around without backing them up"
What about smears and accusations of associations which have no foundation ?
I would have thought that in your new mood of bonhomie and moderation you might have left behind the memory of "the more detailed accusations" you posted against Obama and which the moderators saw fit to remove.
Now that you have let slip the way your mind (not to mention your debating technique) works, some of us may feel that you speak with a forked tongue.
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244. Nick-Gotts,
You really do need to lighten up. Funny thing is, I was just thinking that with all the abuse that I've seen MagicKirin take from the vitriolic lefties on this blog (and I've no doubt I've only seen a very small fraction of it) he has not responded with anything like the venom he's been dealt. I guess your overreaction stems from your insecurity.
Even if I were on the same political side as you and MagicKirin was the opposition, I'd rather sit down and have a beer with him than you, so I guess we're equal. God help America if they ever elect a leftie who has the qualities of the ones on this blog.
No, there was nothing libelous or racist about my comments on Obama.
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Nope, chief Big Bear do not speak with forked tongue. Obama's past associations were very worrying indeed (and they still are) and I backed all my concerns up with detail.
As I said, I'm hoping I was wrong.
(Wouldn't it be hilarious if the lefties here are wrong and you've backed the wrong man?!)
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TooTrue,
I do not need to "lighten up". The war criminals who have run the USA for the past 8 years are directly responsible for around 1 million unnecessary deaths, enormous destruction, two continuing wars, an unprecedented financial crisis, and eight wasted years on climate change. That is sufficient cause for any absence of "lightness" in my attitude.
I simply don't believe your claim that your accusations against Obama were neither libellous nor racist. If they were neither, the moderators would have allowed them through.
As I said, Obama is no leftie. However, he does at least appear to have a fully functioning brain, which I consider a useful qualification for the most powerful position in the world - and it is one which both McSenile and U. Betcha conspicuously lack.
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MagicKirin,
You make an accusation of ignorance which you do not attempt to support - but then the right have never been keen on evidence. Were you lying in your accusations against Obama before the election? If not, it is ridiculous of you to think that he would take any notice of your opinions, as he'll be too busy setting up re-education camps and imposing socialism.
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The most worrisome associations are those of the Israeli sympathizers (sayanim) who pervert the actions of the USA to serve the racist and lamentable ends of Israel.
Certain of the leading NeoCons who had top positions in the Pentagon are largely and willfuly responsible for the disaster in Iraq.
Those who are left (after conflict-of-interest and other matters) are rabidly pushing for attacks on Iran and Syria.
Such activites make one wary of what to expect from the newly appointed White House Chief of Staff
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American exceptionalism? Optimism? I thought all isms while useful temporarily were proved false in the end. Are these any better than socialism which the US so despises?
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Now that economic winter has arrived, the strong will survive, the weak will die off. This time Europe will not have the US to rescue it. We are NOT all in this together, it's every nation for itself.
Obama is like a kindergarten kid facing a tangled problem so tough and complex that it would challenge a PHD. His limited experience in government, his lack of knowledge about the economy, foreign affairs, and the world makes him ill equipped for the challenge he will face. Europeans may not like it or understand it but the President's cabinet is approved by Congress. If Obama wants the sage counsel of Jesse Jackson, William Ayres, or Reverend Wright, they will have to give it to him as private citizens unless Congress says otherwise. If we can't have a president who knows what is going on and has some real knowledge, at least we can insist that he surround himself with people who hopefully do.
If Europeans had actully listened to what Obama said in his speech in Berlin, they'd know that the US is not about to kowtow to them. He expects them to do much of the work if there is to be a rapproachment. Frankly I don't think Europe has it within itself to see what a reckless player it has been. It's hubris and arrogance, its belief that the US is or should be a European colony will once again place it at odds with the US. When the chips are down and you need everyone to pull together, you can count on Europe....to run the other way, pretend the problem doesn't exist, and stick its head in the sand damning the Americans for trying to deal with it. That's how they acted in WWII, the cold war, the war on terror, in Iraq, Afghanistan, Darfur, Ruwanda, the Balkins, in fact everywhere. The US should forget about Europe, they are of no value to it, they are not true friends or reliable allies. All they do is take and criticize. The coming economic tsunami will leave a changed landscape.
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One obvious thing is that if any right-winger was of serious intent he or she would be contributing to the debate about rebuilding the Republican party - not wasting time making fatuous comments on this site.
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What's you opinion about Obama offering a top job (e.g. Sec. of State) to Hillary?
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#242 U12831485:
Well, I've always said, if you spit in the sky, it'll fall in your eye. Excuse me while I wipe my eye.
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MAII,
You follow your usual sneering at Obama (who I am confident has at least five times your knowledge and three times your intelligence), with a warning that he is not going to kow-tow to Europe. Don't you see the inconsistency here? If he's as hopeless as you say, his attitude to Europe is of little significance. I don't think anyone of consequence in Europe expects Obama to be a patsy for anyone - they have a far better appreciation of his qualities than you do. What they do expect is a degree of realism and willingness to listen completely lacking in the current administration, or in the potential alternative.
"The US should forget about Europe, they are of no value to it, they are not true friends or reliable allies. All they do is take and criticize."
MAII
So why are you still posting your fatuous comments on a European blog?
"The coming economic tsunami will leave a changed landscape." - MAII
It will indeed. One in which US dominance will be considerably decreased - in favour of China and India rather than Europe.
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#253.
Yawn..
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# 257
It is always interesting to click on Marcus' name to see where else he has been spreading his unique viewpoint across the BBC blogs. He has been as busy as ever this afternoon.
Whilst it is gratifying that the BBC provides this outlet for him, I do wish that someone would take him to one side and explain to him about the use of paragraphs.
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Re:#108 and 117. Bill may be the wrinkle in Hillary accepting Secretary of State.
Problematic dealings and investments
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#245 Magickirin:
"The Palestinians as I have stated have to learn that Israel is here to stay. When they started acting civilized instead of choosing murderous thugs to rule them their lives will improve.
As an American I have every right to state my oppinions who should be in President-Elect Obama's cabinent.
More right than ignorant people like you"
Magic, disagreeing with you isn't ignorance, it's common sense. Also I'd be fascinated to know the role you envisage for 'civilised' Palestinians in Israel? Fascinated, and probably appalled...
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
225
lovely words;)
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233. At 12:33pm on 15 Nov 2008, Truepooh wrote:
231. Nick-Gotts,
Lighten up a bit, can't you. Your guy won. One would think you guys would be excited and optimistic and joyful. But so much of what I read from the left here and elsewhere is full of bitterness and still in attack mode against Sarah Palin, as an example.
Republicans, on the other hand, appear to have largely accepted their defeat with grace, McCain and Bush setting the example. Even that bastion of American conservatism, the Littlegreenfootballs blog, congratulated Obama on his victory.
So why shouldn't MagicKirin and others feel they have a part in the process of Obama's administration? You seem to be content with divisiveness and conflict.
------------------------------
yea he won, but guess what we came on here al ready after the election and this"new" right wing freak came on and well ,some of us think him a terrible bore and do wish he would urinate elsewhere with his gherkin .
Comment on administration but that is not what you have done.
Oh off Israel are you is that because you both know you have no chance of arguing , your minds are weak and not up to the task.
Plop bam bam
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253 see you later then,
Marcus the arm chair chickenhawk, with the analytical prowess of a gherkin,
sorry you will not be able to join us in the new world.
"It's every nation for itself."
your army is exhausted, demoralised,and in need of total rebuild on vehicles .
You will not be able to get all the "stuff" you weak people will need.
You have no strength to take what you need.
And your country is not geared up to run steam trains anymore.
You're manufacturing is not here anymore.
You're gonna want something other than corn wheat and soy to eat and you won't have much of that unless you fools figure out real farming.
Good luck in Cloud marcus land , have a bowl you might find you like it.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The campaign had a "mantra" about::CHANGE-so an optimistic America(or the Republican side)might be consdiering that its a WIN-WIN situation about POLICY..where Mr. Obama really seems to suggest that things can be "worded so" American's do have a substantial reality about personal accomplishment,[this]should be the area of endeavor that Mr. Obama seems to have noticed,,is missing in his "Getting There" speeches-feeling secure is part of the mission of moving forward(weither)a Democrat or a Republican/our next president has more(work)than meets the EYE-of-Change..the Vocal parts..and the hands on will mold such CHANGE-as worthy or not.
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Re: 228 Magic
"Oh and Eighty my views on Israel are mainstream in the U.S. We know the Palestinains are at fault in the Mid-East"
Re: 231 Nick-Gotts
"The rest of the world is well aware of this absurd, unjust and dangerous one-sidedness, there's no need to boast about it."
======================
There is a survey of self-identified Christian Americans which (surprise surprise) puts the lie to Magic's original assertion.
Conducted by the evangelical Joshua Fund early in 2008, it contains some interesting data. It is in PDF format, so I can't link to it, but go here and it's easy to find. The site itself is, er, interesting as well.
As to the data, the polling firm asked, ?If a Palestinian state were established in the West Bank and Gaza, do you believe it would more likely be a peaceful, moderate democracy or a
terrorist state??
"32% of American Christians said ?a terrorist state?
24% said a ?peaceful democracy?
A striking 44% said they just don?t know yet."
So, in spite of a dreadfully biased question ("terrorist state"!?!) most *Christian* Americans either don't know, or believe in a positive outcome.
The data breaks down further:
"For example, Protestants lean towards saying a Palestinian state would be a terrorist state by a 10-point margin, but Catholics are virtually split. Evangelical Protestants say a Palestinian state would be a terrorist state by a 20-point margin but non-Evangelical Protestants lean towards saying it would be a peaceful, moderate democracy by 6-points. The opinion that a Palestinian state would be a terrorist state is strongest among Republican and conservative Evangelical Protestants. "
So maybe what Magic *meant* to say is that his opinion is mainstream among Republican and conservative Evangelical Protestants.
And Nick-G could then reply that the rest of the world is aware of the absurd, unjust and dangerous one-sidedness among members of this constituency.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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The choice of Secretary of State is off topic, but is certainly the hot topic right now. It would be odd if Obama chose Hillary Clinton since she is so confrontational, not the best trait for a negotiator. Also there is the problem of Bill's international influence peddling. You would think he he would choose Bill Richardson who has outstanding experience for the post. And what about Chuck Hagel, will he be Secretary of Defence? A great choice, if it comes about.
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Justin
You are the only BBC comentator who seems to understand America. But your fellow British citizens are so wed to thier steriotype of what Americans are that it really is a hopless cause. If you said Americans are poor bigots who waterboard inocent young men for no reason they will praise your insightfullness and beleve you without question. If you make some (true) statment that is mildly complimentary you will be attacked by the clueless.
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Nick No Gotts
My sneering at Obama is nothing compared to my sneereing at the rest of the world....especially Europe and Europeans. At least Obama has an American point of view even if he doesn't have the knowledge to apply it yet. I hope he's a fast learner. America has a lot of enemies very jealous of it. As for China and India, I think you will be surprised at how their economies shrink especially China's after the coming Christmas No Sale season in the US.
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#2, Xie Ming
The "City on the Hill" motif came from the right wing, the Reaganites. how does that idea fit in with Obama and a shift to the left?
Moreover, who's to say the "City on the Hill" or its optimistic counterpart on the left is unenlightened? Indoctrinated pessimists?
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Marbles
Interesting comments - and having allowed the speculation go this far, it would be a humiliation for HRC if someone else was chosen. The Obama team are usually so cautious and I cannot believe that there is not some real substance in the speculation -if it were just the HRC team it would surely have been downplayed by now.
Is she really belligerent ? She was certainly regarded by much of the world as a good emissary for Bill during the nineties.
I still believe that she was badly advised by the likes of Mark Penn to be tougher than the boys in order to crack the glass ceiling - and all that has been proved a myth now that a person of mixed race has been chosen as the best person for the job by the electorate.
Her elevation to succeed Condi Rice would certainly restore a serious woman to an important role - in contrast to the Palin debacle.
But Bill, and his post-presidential power base remains an unfathomable problem. Can she really agree to be vetted ? Over to you Marbles - and your instinct for these things.
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# 272
"City on the Hill" is a Christian metaphor, much used by the Protestants c. 1600, and in currency among the Puritans-
but it may date back to Augustine and his "City of God".
Regan (or his speech-writers) may have hyped it- [Reagan claimed to believe in Armageddon, etc.]
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ref #261
Don't know why I try bothering to educate you, I've given you sources which you ignore.
The Palestinians have already been given land and what did they do srart firing missles into Israel proper. Hamas claims by Israel destroying a terror tunnel like the one the Hams terrorists used to capture Corpral Gilead that is breaking the truce.
You have never answered my previous question on what will be Israel recourse if they gave into every demand and Hamas started firing missles.
So right now the Palestinians have to earn Israel's trust.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The problem with HRC as Secretary of State are the same as with the notion of her as VP; can she accept being in a subordinate position? Can Bill be counted on to accept his position and stay quietly in the background?
The speculation is intense but then it was during the VP selection and I think it has more to do with the media than the Obama camp. If the answer to the questions above is yes then she might be a good choice to cement party unity.
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All the sneering and pointing and laughing at people like MarcusAurelius II is obviously completely justified. And for those of you who think Americans are always positive, it's a lie. All you have to do is read Marcus's latest, pathetic posts.
But for all the baiting, sneering English (jacksforge in particular) who need to dig up 20th century videos satirizing Bush I and Reagan, nice try to divert attention away from Obama and his victory. Why should Americans be allowed to feel good about this election when small, unhappy people in England can dig up Youtube videos reminding us of Reagan and George HW Bush? Surely you can do better than that. You could dig up Youtube videos of W, Cheney and Rumsfeld. Why remind us of right wing lightweights like Ronald Reagan when the real deal is still in office? And pat yourselves on the back for not bringing up Margaret Thatcher, John Major and David Cameron (perhaps your next PM).
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#274 Xie Ming
Yes, to clarify, in a modern political context it was definitely, with question Ronald Reagan who referenced "City on the Hill" repeatedly. Why even suggest this term has something to do with Barack Obama?
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275. At 9:42pm on 15 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #261
Don't know why I try bothering to educate you, I've given you sources which you ignore."
And you would ignore them too if you had any decency.
"The Palestinians have already been given land and what did they do srart firing missles into Israel proper.2
What land have the Palestinians been "given"?
Where is Israel "proper"? Are you admitting that Israel "proper" is different from greater Israel (Israel improper?)?
" Hamas claims by Israel destroying a terror tunnel like the one the Hams terrorists used to capture Corpral Gilead that is breaking the truce."
The world claims starving women and children breaks any truce. The Palestinians are merely proving to the Israelis they are not going to dissapear.
"You have never answered my previous question on what will be Israel recourse if they gave into every demand and Hamas started firing missles."
But it was answered. If Isrsel trearted the Palestinians properely then the Issue would never arise.
But to a far right winger like yourself no semitic people can ever be trusted.
You do know WWII ended in 1945?
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#249 Nick Gotts:
"I do not need to "lighten up". The war criminals who have run the USA for the past 8 years are directly responsible for around 1 million unnecessary deaths, enormous destruction, two continuing wars, an unprecedented financial crisis, and eight wasted years on climate change. That is sufficient cause for any absence of "lightness" in my attitude.""
A crude oversimplification, to be expected. But why not bring about a war crimes tribunal against Tony Blair? If Britain did, then people would actually sit up and notice and regard modern Britain as a place of more than just talk. If Tony Blair was tried for war crimes in Britain, then Americans might actually be impressed and perhaps be forced to follow suit. Imagine Britain leading by example, an unlikely throwback to the good old days, a near miracle.
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268.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
The tidal majority of Americans do not give a hang about Israel and certainly don't support the virulent anti-semtism of many of its supporters.
This is why Israel is in such a parlous state. SInce the end of the Cold War it has lost its strategic significance and it extremism(denounced even by its own PM) is digging it more and more into a hole.
Look at the farce of its politics. A "democracy" some of whose politicians would be under arrest for racial abuse in other countries.
Its a pity that the US does not try to help the country instead of simply supporting its far-right ambitions.
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chronophobe@268,
Thanks very much - interesting! However, the "Executive summary" still suggests on the whole a very unbalanced pro-Israel attitude.
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"But why not bring about a war crimes tribunal against Tony Blair?" - eddienix
I assure you, I among many others would dearly love to do that, although there seems no prospect of it in the forseeable future. I certainly hope Obama will refuse to work with Bliar as Middle East envoy.
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Just catching up after being away. Jeez, some of you do go on and on about the same old things. You all could codify it, like chess moves, and save a lot of time.
re. 174. Ed Iglehart:
"I take exception to this:
"COLUMBIA, S.C. ? A South Carolina Roman Catholic priest has told his parishioners that they should refrain from receiving Holy Communion if they voted for Barack Obama because the Democratic president-elect supports abortion, and supporting him "constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil."""
As I remember from my long-ago and much-regretted Catholic school education, the opinion of a mere priest is not to be regarded as authoritative. When a bishop says something like that, you're getting into serious territory. If the Pope says it, you're in jeopardy of being excommunicated. So don't pay it any mind. I'm sure the congregation didn't.
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ref #280 and 282
Simon you are either very naive or are pro palestinian terrorists. Hamas and Hezbollah have stated openly they will not have peace with Israel
Isreal as I have stated proved with Egypt and Jordan they want peace.
Why can't you admidt that those two terroristgroups are entirely untrustworthy.
In regard to Israel's strategic importance, I know morality is a hard concept for you to comprehend.
But U.S stands behind's it's friends the same way we anger China by having relations with Taiwan
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273, eightypercent.
If I were Obama I would make the offer in such a way that Hillary would refuse it. I would say, "You can have the post, but only on condition that Bill give up his lobbying, because of conflict of interest." Since that is the source of their bank account, I should think she would turn down the offer.
I assume that Obama has made some sort of payoff promise to the Clintons to keep them from sabotaging his campaign for election. What that promise was we can only guess at, but Bill has a real hate for Obama for destroying his machine. The Clintons are not the type to take their loss philosophically.
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275, ubermensch.
Yawn....
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277, AsaScot.
"...she (Hillary Clinton) might be a good choice to cement party unity."
The party has never been more unified. The question is: what did Obama promise the Cllintons to keep them from sabotaging his campaign? Did he do nothing more than try to help them pay off their debt? I hope so, but ....
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"I assume that Obama has made some sort of payoff promise to the Clintons to keep them from sabotaging his campaign for election." - allmymarbles
You could be right, but somehow I doubt it: I think he was probably careful neither to promise nor threaten. The Clintons could see for themselves that if they sabotaged in any obvious fashion, they would be reviled and rejected by the Dems forever. Obama has good reasons for making a generous offer now. First, Clinton could do the job, no question. If she turns it down, well and good. If she accepts, she has to leave the Senate and put herself in Obama's power: he can dismiss a Secretary of State any time he wants.
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The "city on a hill' thing was probably a reference to Matt. 5:14.
TrueToo - "God help America if they ever elect a leftie who has the qualities of the ones on this blog."
BWAHAHAAA! First I'd exile all the far right to Mexico - after all the Confederates wanted to set up an enclave there after their rebellion failed. Judging from the changing population of my state, there's plenty of room south of the border, and I'm betting the Federales could handling the new kids on the block.
First the coal mining industry would have to go...and then .... Excuse me, I have to go finalize my plans.
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eddienix@278,
I agree with you: Americans should indeed feel proud of electing Obama, and by a clear majority; and electing him not because he's black, but because in the final election, he was clearly the best candidate with the best policies.
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290, Nick.
There is merit in what you say. But what about Bubba and his questionable activities? If he is not reined in he can insinuate himself into her activities. Make no mistake, Bill and Hillary are in everything together, regardless of her saying one thing and him another (trade with Colombia, for instance). They, together and individually, do not inspire my trust.
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Speaking of optimism - which we were some time back:
On Justin's blog, a number of people had predicted racial tensions rising if one candidate or the other won. A few lefties, myself among them, said that living in rural areas, they didn't put Obama signs on their lawns or cars. Good choice as it turns out.
According to MSNBC, true to their nature, some right-wingers are threatening Obama, defacing property, shouting insults (even to children) and generally proving that they can't control their baser instincts.
It's a good thing the men and women of the Secret Service have nerves of steel. Especially for the sake of those two little girls.
Shame!
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291, Nessie.
Why would you punish Mexico?
I think maybe an enclave that includes Tennessee and northern Mississippi and Alabama would be suitable for the far-right lunatic fringe. They could have their KKK and White Supremisists all in one place, and even make abortion a hanging offense and creationism a required science. They like guns so I would supply them with plenty and hope for the best.
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Nix eddienix, the US is running the world by default. Oh the burden of "leadership." Europe had to be dragged kicking and screaming into Afghanistan where it will not fight, was scared of Iraq and horrified at losing all those profits circumventing the sanctions (the outcome in Iraq is in large part due to Europe's failure to participate in the overthrow of Saddam Hussein's Nazi-like regime) let alone eliminating a possible attack on the US with WMDs (which most governement believed likely in 2003), is deathly afraid of Iran, is at the mercy of Russia, can't compete on its best day with China or Japan for cheap goods from China and high tech from Japan on their worst day, and blames it all on the US. Actually the only blame the US deserves is inventing the sub prime mortgage and Credit Default Swaps which bankrupted the world. Oh, Europe jumped into that one with both eyes wide shut. Nice going Europe, I could hardly have planned it better myself had I declared economic war on the world. We are not in this together, it's every country for itself including the EU...whatever that is.
The palestinians are getting exactly what they deserve, maybe better than they deserve having elected a government of terrorists. They have no one to blame but themselves. They are fighting a war of existance against Israel at their own insistance and losing badly. I am sick and tired of their whining. I will be happy when it is over and I think we all know what the outcome will be. They will never get a state, that is an impossibility I think. It certainly looms much further off then it ever seemed in the past. Besides, there is no such thing as palestine or a palestinian people anyway so why should the residents of Gaza and the west bank have their own state? I like hearing all of those who curse this situation whining about it as well. You, Xie Ming, jacksforge, david_cunard. If I were in Britain, I'd start worrying a lot more about my own future and a lot less about the "palestinians'." I'd be wondering if I have a future. Things will get a lot worse before....they get even worse than that. BTW, don't count on Barack Obama to help you out. I think we'll be lucky if he can help Chicago or Cleveland out.
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"286. At 10:39pm on 15 Nov 2008, MagicKirin wrote:
ref #280 and 282
Simon you are either very naive or are pro palestinian terrorists. "
And you are either eceptionally ill informed or pro state terrorism and oppression.
"Hamas and Hezbollah have stated openly they will not have peace with Israel"
Really, so when they call for a truce and observe it they want war?
And I suppose Mother Theresa hated the poor and dying?
Perhaps the English language is not your strong point?
"Isreal as I have stated proved with Egypt and Jordan they want peace."
Is that so? When did Israel start putting settlers in Jordan and Egypt?
Did Begin allow the settlement of Sinai continue when he wanted an Egyptian peace treaty?
Date please
"Why can't you admidt that those two terroristgroups are entirely untrustworthy."
Why can't you admit you support state oppression, and state sponsored violence?
"In regard to Israel's strategic importance, I know morality
Yes I admit your concept that four million Palesitinans are not human beings is the type of morality we saw in World war II.
"But U.S stands behind's it's friends the same way we anger China by having relations with Taiwan"
Oh Dear new levels of ignorance. Do you think for 1 moment the US would enter a nuclear war with China over Taiwan?
Do you actually beleive this?
Do you think 300 million US citizens would want their lives risked over Taiwan or Israel?
Israel's importance is declining. Its political system has become deeply corrupt and in some cases, near fascistic (I notice you do not attempt to deny this), it no longer has any grand strategic role, or very little.
And attempts by far right supporters like you to defend it only makes things steadily worse.
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allmymarbles,
I imagine Obama will have made clear that if anything questionable comes out about Bill, she'll be out. That may well put her off; and even apart from that, there's a lot to be said from her point of view for staying in the Senate and waiting her chance for another crack at the top job. A lot can happen in four years.
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"Europe had to be dragged kicking and screaming into Afghanistan where it will not fight, was scared of Iraq" - MA II
Why the hell should we fight your imperial wars for you?
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More on Rahm
Enjoy!
;-)
ed
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"They are fighting a war of existance against Israel at their own insistance and losing badly. I am sick and tired of their whining. I will be happy when it is over and I think we all know what the outcome will be. They will never get a state, that is an impossibility I think. It certainly looms much further off then it ever seemed in the past. Besides, there is no such thing as palestine or a palestinian people anyway so why should the residents of Gaza and the west bank have their own state?" - MAII
So, what do you think the outcome will be? Context suggests extermination of the Palestinians, which you would be happy about. If this eagerness for genocide was not your meaning, I suggest you elucidate.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Nick No Gotts
"Europe had to be dragged kicking and screaming into Afghanistan where it will not fight, was scared of Iraq" - MA II
Why the hell should we fight your imperial wars for you?"
That's the same question I keep asking about World War I, World War II and the cold war. I keep hearing about this thing called NATO. People say it is an alliance based on mutual defense. I don't understand what that means in the context of Europe refusing to fight in Afghanistan after the US was attacked by a force clearly based in Afghanistan and supported and protected by the Afghanistan government of the time. I say right now would be an excellent time for the US to pull out of NATO and let Europe fend for itself. We'll see just how much money is left for the NHS and its counterparts in the rest of the EU when that happens.
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Ladies and gentlemen, The President Elect
Peace and the Fireside
ed
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299, Nick.
I am all for getting out of Afghanistan too. There is nothing to be gained there. Even if they caught Osama bin Laden, what difference would it make except for use as propaganda? Chop his head off and another will grow in its place. If we do not change our policies concerning the Middle East the carnage will go on forever. By the way, I am not talking about the Palestinians, but the larger picture.
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"That's the same question ["why should we fight your imperial wars"] I keep asking about World War I, World War II and the cold war." - MAII
With respect to WWI and to some extent WWII that's a reasonable question. The overall answer is that it would have been very dangerous for the US to let Eurasia be dominated by a single power. Just as Britain earlier sided in Europe against whatever power was strongest (Spain, France, Russia, Germany successively), so did the USA. Simple geopolitics.
In WWI, if the US had not intervened, Germany would have won, and would have dominated Eurasia. How long would the US have been safe, and able to maintain its foreign trade, once Germany built the world-class navy it planned, and allied with Japan? In WWII, of course, the US came in when, and only when, attacked, although it had given aid before then, which was clearly in its interest to keep Germany from winning. Hitler, you may recall, declared war on the US after Pearl Harbor, not the other way round. Of course the US could have followed a "Japan first" strategy, but that would have risked Germany being the first to develop nuclear weapons. As it was, it had developed both ballistic and cruise missiles by 1945, and given another year would have deployed far more effective submarines than anything any other power possessed. If you really want to know about these wars, rather than just regurgitating your contempt and hatred of Europe all over the blog from time to time, I recommend David Stevenson's "1914-1918: The History of the First World War"; and Gerhard L. Weinberg's "A World at Arms: A Global History of World War Two".
Once we get to the Cold War - that's your imperial war: just look at its outcome - a world, in the early 1990s, dominated by the USA to an extent no power had ever come close to in history. Take a look at NSC-68, a document from 1950. Rightly or wrongly (I think wrongly), US strategists viewed the USSR and communism as an existential threat, and wished to build the widest possible coalition against them. In power political terms, you could say the outcome validated the grand strategy. Now, however, you're suffering from imperial overstretch, as dominant powers tend to do, and hence trying to get others to fight your wars for you. It's unlikely to work, particularly post-crash. The key blunder was invading Iraq before either finishing off the Taleban, or disengaging. This happened because the neocons had intended the invasion of Iraq right from the start - having to go into Afghanistan was a frightful nuisance. There was absolutely no necessity to invade Iraq in 2003, but they were impatient. Foolishly, they thought they could run two wars at once - and give tax cuts to their rich patrons. Hence the failure to win either war (Iraq was supposed to start paying its way quickly, but hasn't yet done so), and the credit crunch. You're on your way down from the peak of dominance, but not in any short-term danger of losing the number one spot.
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MAII@303,
you really are hilarious. Exactly who do you think is going to attack the EU? Please, please, pretty please take your troops and weapons home - good for us and good for you. We could still slash military spending and be safer than we are now!
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305. allmymarbles wrote:
I am all for getting out of Afghanistan too. There is nothing to be gained there.
===========================
I'm not so sure about this anymore. As you may know, Canadian forces have been in Khandahar since 2006. It has not been easy, and many here want the troops to come home. It does sometimes seem to be an endless quagmire with no positive result in sight.
I have recently read the book *Punishment of Virtue* by Sandra Chayes, who was an NPR reporter during the invasion of Afghanistan. She stayed, and has helped set up a cosmetics cooperative in Khandahar. In her book, she is at pains to stress that so many in Afghanistan are eager for a new start free from the theocratic tyranny of the Taliban. She is also at pains to criticize the stupidity of the initial occupation and the early days of the Karzai regime, lamenting the loss of a golden opportunity to achieve something of lasting value in Afghanistan (see her interview with Bill Moyers here).
I am these days more inclined to believe that, with an intelligent balance of security (i.e., military) engagement with a meaningful refocussing of development efforts, something lasting and hopeful may come of our Afghan mission.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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chronophobe@308,
If the military history of south-west Asia in the last two centuries has any clear message for outside powers, it's "Don't try to hold Afghanistan!" Getting in and grabbing Kabul and the other main towns is a doddle for a well-equipped army, but as the British discovered in the 19th century and the Russians in the 20th, trying to run the place is completely untenable. Since its foundation in its modern form in the 18th century, Afghanistan has never been a functioning unitary state: geography prevents it. Whoever holds Kabul has to deal with scads of local warlords - allying with some, fighting with others, and paying the rest to keep quiet. Particularly if you have the largest ethnic group, the Pashtun, solidly against you, as a foreign power you don't have a hope in hell of making this work for long. If you're trying to ruin the economy by suppressing opium-growing, it's even worse. IT WON'T WORK.
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Nick No Gotts, I think if the US hadn't entered WWI, there might not have been a WWII. Perhaps WWI could have continued on to this very day. The wars in the Balkins in the 80s and 90s were a continuation of it. Would the Kaiser ruling all of Europe have been any worse than say Chirac, de Villepin, Schroeder, or Barroso? If the US had walked away from Europe after WWII, it would all still look like Eastern Europe when the USSR fell. I could live with that. The way things are going, it may turn out that way eventually anyhow.
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For Nick, and Ms Marbles
;-)
ed
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308, chrono.
I was in Afghanistan before the Russians began to destroy it and before we finished the destruction. They were doing just fine without foreign interference. All the problems they have now are attributable to intervention from the outside.
Let us leave them to determine their own fate. All we have done is devastated a simple poor people.
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We can helpPeace and education
ed
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OK, I've held my tongue, but I just have to say this. Posts like #296 and #310 lend credence to the view that American exceptionalism has been and continues to be a toxic myth.
The idea that one nation, any nation, just by virtue of "starting from scatch" is endowed with all truth and light and righteousness is bad Christianity, and bad history. The U.S. is no better, morally, than most other democratic nations existing today. To expect others to just follow our lead, to march to our drumbeat, is a distorted reflection of this myth of exceptionalism, and an indication how taking ideas to extremes can be so dangerous.
I won't go as far as others to claim that the U.S. has been deliberately imperialistic, but the subconscious effect is sadly still there. We get angry and huffy and lash out when others don't do what they're told, even if they disagree due to honest questions about policy. Like my pre-adolescent son- say "no" or disagree, and batten down the hatches...
Time for some maturity and consensus in foreign policy.
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313, Ed.
No, Ed, we can't help. We have our mindset and it is not their's. The best thing we can do is get out.
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314, Via Media.
I agree with everything you have to say, with one exception. I believe that imperialism is involved. World leaders are not as innocent as the people that vote them in.
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#279
"City on a Hill" may be an integral, if minor, vector in American Exceptionalism,
assuming that the phrase is used by the religiously impressed.
In secular clothing, "We have to show the World how good our system is (and make them adopt it)".
[I see no evidence yet that Obama is party to such a view, but it would seem that Reagan and Bush were]
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311, Ed.
Exactly.
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314. Via-Media:
It is a myth that, I think, can cut both ways. It is often used as a jingoistic justification for flexing the imperial muscle, or for bashing internal dissent (the patriotism gambit). It can also, as in the Civil Rights movement, be utilized to affect positive change (as in, so if it says here in the Declaration of Independence that all men are created equal, why the hell don't *all* men, and women, have equal rights?)
The exceptionalism thing has been so degraded over the last 8 years (at least) that many people, especially outside the US, view it with no little contempt.
Where Obama will go with it in terms of foreign policy is still largely unknown.
It's a messy world he inherits.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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270. douglasroman,
Ain't that the truth. (Except for the first sentence.)
268. chronophobe wrote,
As to the data, the polling firm asked, ?If a Palestinian state were established in the West Bank and Gaza, do you believe it would more likely be a peaceful, moderate democracy or a
terrorist state??
"32% of American Christians said ?a terrorist state?
24% said a ?peaceful democracy?
A striking 44% said they just don?t know yet."
So, in spite of a dreadfully biased question ("terrorist state"!?!) most *Christian* Americans either don't know, or believe in a positive outcome.
Your interpretation of the data is conveniently skewed towards your own bias. Fact is, a majority of those who did venture an opinion said it would be a terrorist state.
And why is the question "dreadfully biased?" A majority of Gazans elected Hamas, recognised as a terrorist group by the US, EU and others, to lead them; and it looks like Hamas will take over the West Bank as well. Do you have a problem with people accurately describing terrorists?
282. Simon21 wrote,
The tidal majority of Americans do not give a hang about Israel and certainly don't support the virulent anti-semtism of many of its supporters.
Nobody will make head or tail of that comment. Much as I disagree with Nick-Gotts on other issues, he is right that the term anti-Semitism applies to Jews and not to Arabs. If you?re trying to find a term for anti-Arab sentiment, try racism. That'll do. Or just use anti-Arab. But while you're at it, you might note that Israel is one of the least racist countries on the planet.
297. Simon21,
"Hamas and Hezbollah have stated openly they will not have peace with Israel"
Really, so when they call for a truce and observe it they want war?
Yes, is the short answer. Have a look at the concept of hudna. Anyone who has followed the conflict closely will have noticed that whenever Hamas is getting hammered a little too heavily by Israel they call for a truce to give themselves time to regroup and rearm for the next round.
When Hamas starts to rid itself of its obsession to spill the blood of Jewish civilians, and changes its Charter, which currently calls for the total destruction of Israel, there will be some prospect of peace.
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"301. At 00:10am on 16 Nov 2008, Nick-Gotts wrote:
"They are fighting a war of existance against Israel at their own insistance and losing badly. I am sick and tired of their whining. I will be happy when it is over and I think we all know what the outcome will be. They will never get a state, that is an impossibility I think. It certainly looms much further off then it ever seemed in the past. Besides, there is no such thing as palestine or a palestinian people anyway so why should the residents of Gaza and the west bank have their own state?" - MAII
So, what do you think the outcome will be? Context suggests extermination of the Palestinians, which you would be happy about. If this eagerness for genocide was not your meaning, I suggest you elucidate."
Yes this does look like an apologia for genocide - be interesting to see how this individual explains this view.
Or why the BBC allows such anti-semetic rants on its board.
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301. Nick-Gotts,
321. Simon21,
You guys are going to give clutching at straws a deeper meaning. I'm sure MarcusAureliusII (at no. 296) can speak for himself, but to assume he is advocating genocide of the Palestinians is an extraordinary leap even for people on this site.
And he said:
If I were in Britain, I'd start worrying a lot more about my own future and a lot less about the "palestinians'."
The Brits here would do well to take that good advice.
And Simon21, endlessly repeating this brand new idea you have that anti-Semitism is a term describing an attitude directed against Arabs wont turn it into reality. But if you insist on doing it, at least try to spell it correctly. I've seen antisemitism and anti-semitism but there's always only one 'e' in the term.
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MAII@310,
You really have no idea whatever what you're talking about. In 1917 Germany defeated Russia. In 1918, they nearly broke through in the West. Had the US not supported France and Britain, they would have done so, winning the war. They could not have conquered Britain at that point, but would have begun building a navy to dominate the seas. The US would then have had the choice of knuckling under to a dominant Germany, or getting into a naval arms race, with Britain as a minor ally. The illusion that the US can remain unaffected by the rest of the world is a particularly foolish one.
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To believe that there has never been a geographical or political area called "Palestine" or that there have never been "Palestinians" (which once included Jews, Arabs and immigrants from Georgia and Armenia among others: and not everyone who lives in the current area called Palestine is an Arab, by the way) merely shows a deplorable ignorance of both history and geography.
Anyone who claims that obviously knows no history or political geography further back than the second World War.
And if those views are representative of a majority of Americans (as more than one Arab friend of mine who has lived in the US has told me) they really have no right to speak of the area, let alone in such simplistically racist terms, which I find abominable.
Screaming 'anti-semitism' at anyone who is not a supporter of Zionism is merely cheap.
So "American Exceptionalism" also means believing in things that are exceptionallyuntrue? And being out of step with any reality that doesn't suit?
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To: 21. At 1:30pm on 13 Nov 2008, LeftofMao wrote:
Quote: [Regardless of who is President, for most of us, it's off to the salt mines in the morning and back to the tavern or TV in the evening. Whoever is living at 1600 Penna Avenue doesn't really matter. But it's nice to have someone of honor and integrity in there now.]
That's partly true. But contrast the usual (post-Vietnam) POTUS with what Dubya and Cheney were able to accomplish in the past eight years. I think their term shows the extent to which POTUS can change the order of things.
With regard to Obama, it'll all come down to his cabinet and advisors. As much as I disprove of Dubya and Cheney and their policies of war and empire, their administration (for good or bad) has strengthened the office of POTUS. That strength, in tandem with a Congress controlled by the same party at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, gives Obama and his Cabinet extraordinary power in creating policy.
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It amazes me that all boards lead to Israel and the Palestinian question. Wow!
Someone posted on another thread that Zionism took true courage. I think the implication (in the thread) was that Jews who returned to Palestine after 1900 years of exile (Rome's desecration and destruction of the Temple in about 60 A.D.) showed extraordinary courage to "re"create their homeland. Courageous, or not, I wouldn't begrudge anybody the right or authority to make themselves a home on uncontested terrain.
I just wish the U.N., the U.S., and Great Britain (in particular) had had the courage to stand up and argue for state-building consistent with a post-Enlightenment scheme where the indigenous Palestinians would have been invited as partners in the new state of Israel (back in 1948-1949). But, I guess the West was still reeling over subconscious guilt over the Holocaust to have said to "Yes to Israel, but with the caveat that the Palestinians..." In the American vernacular, Britain and the U.S. dropped the ball on that one.
No use crying over spilled milk. But it did get us into a world of crap, just the same.
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TrueToo@322,
I didn't assume MAII was advocating genocide; I suggested he explain himself as that is how what he said can easily be read, and his contempt and loathing for the Palestinians appear unbounded; so much so he even denies their existence.
You are of course right about the term antisemitism, as I've argued myself on this blog recentrly.
What do you take MAII to mean by the "advice" you quote with approval? I took it to be just the standard US tinfoil hat brigade's belief that Europe is about to be conquered by the Arabs, and so ignored it.
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to: 294. At 11:20pm on 15 Nov 2008, nessie1945 wrote:
Quote: [Speaking of optimism - which we were some time back:
On Justin's blog, a number of people had predicted racial tensions rising if one candidate or the other won. A few lefties, myself among them, said that living in rural areas, they didn't put Obama signs on their lawns or cars. Good choice as it turns out.
According to MSNBC, true to their nature, some right-wingers are threatening Obama, defacing property, shouting insults (even to children) and generally proving that they can't control their baser instincts.
It's a good thing the men and women of the Secret Service have nerves of steel. Especially for the sake of those two little girls.
Shame!]
Here's a link I posted on the other thread. The uglier side of race relations in America... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081116/ap_on_re_us/obama_racial;_ylt=AkNh_E9eAVIYGfphEcV5bDoUewgF
I have a pretty rough life in Mongolia, too. It's hard getting respect here. Mongolians think "White" Americans are somehow better than "Colored." It's always subtle. People ask me how I feel. I say: "I'm used to it..."
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Further to my last post. It's a peculiar fact of racism in America that given the chance to employ someone (and in the absence of equal opportunity legislation [which I think is stupid anyway]), most organizations will hire a white for an authority position. Case in point: I have applied to USAID and other US Federal agencies in Mongolia for contract positions, and they've never even called me in for an interview. I find that strange indeed, because I wonder how many ex-Peace Corps volunteers in Mongolia claim BA-MBA-(Part JD) combinations from leading U.S. schools - and with loads of professional business experience and loads of managing (try managing a class of 20+ university students consistently for years and years).
Racism? Maybe... But there is definitely a dearth of color among the State Department and USAID personel in UB Mongolia. I think it's white and Mongolian. Or that's all I've seen.
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# 326 ex312
Exactly - and the problem is not going to be solved (as it must be) if the attitude of MAII prevails.
I believe it is British policy (articulated by Blair and not, to my knowledge, changed) to establish a VIABLE Palestinian state.
It is extraordinary that, in the knowledge that the settlement of this problem is the key to moving Middle Eastern relationships forward, the US administration has been so ineffectual about it for the past eight years - and that the sort of venom spouted by the likes of MAII are tolerated on public broadcasting websites.
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326. ex1312,
Ain't got no time now. Gotta run. But briefly, the West was hardly "reeling with guilt" over the Holocaust. In fact, the US and many others had very strict limits indeed on how many refugees they would accept (if any) fleeing the Holocaust. Britain went a step further and actively tried to deny the Jews the state that Britain was mandated to help establish.
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# 332
Bunkum.
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Xie_Ming,
Your attempt to minimise the Nazi holocaust is loathsome rubbish. I now know not to take anything you say seriously.
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Hey Moderators, did I blaspheme at:
330. At 10:42am on 16 Nov 2008, ex1312
or was the post held up for bad grammar, improper syntax, or just a bad argument?
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To: 334. At 12:18pm on 16 Nov 2008, Xie_Ming
About the math, I was taught that the number murdered in the Holocaust was approximately 6 million. In Catholic High School, we read Night and Fog (Elie Wiesel) and The Diary of Anne Frank. My father had a book in the bookcase: While 6 Million died (about FDR and the American hierarchy having evidence of the episode well before December 1941).
I don't know the actual number. I hadn't been around to count. And I honestly have never done the research to actually come up with the numbers.
But whether it was 30,000 100,000 530,000 or 6,000,000. Bottom line: it was an atrocity.
I just finished viewing Racism-A History (Produced by BBC 4). It was interesting and blood-curdling, though the program did not teach me anything new (except that perhaps as many as 10 million blacks died as a result of Belgium in Congo). I hadn't known about that particular genocide.
With regard to the modern Israel and Palestinian relations... I know little. My knowledge of current Israeli affairs stops at approximately Netanyahu's height of power (early-mid 1990's). Terrorism on both sides. I trivialize it by comparison to blood feud between Ishmael's and Isaac's descendants. And that's too trivial.
I think the past three generations of recent blood-letting have created a toxic situation. Mutual distrust, "terrorist" acts, and an ingrained desire to act intolerably toward the other are the current symptoms of the plight in "Palestine." To use the Christian euphemism, it is a tough cross to bear for all concerned. The solution requires fundamental changes in conscious thought. And that is a generational shift. But as I said, they've had three generations of shift in the opposite direction.
Maybe global warming might offer a solution in 60 to 100 years. Perhaps rain patterns will change and Sahara might actually become viable (who knows). Then whole other groups of humans might find themselves embroiled in conflict to create a state there.
I'm not a peacenik. But the futility of war really does turn my stomach.
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Ms Marbles (315),
Of course I agree. In fact, I was appalled when (thanks to al Poodle's sucking up) we rushed in with guns blazing like Yosemite Sam...But, I do support my friends' small initiative, community-to-community, school-to-school, etc., because it has sprung from the desires expressed by the folk of upland Nuristan themselves.The travellers' tales my friends bring back are wonderful and uplifting, and tell of a culture only "Islamicised" for a couple of centuries, Indo-European at root ("they have dogs indoors, and they drink..."). All they want is education, decent medical care, and roads, and although I have my doubts about the benefits of opening them up to the outside world, the worst elements of that are coming to them whether they want them or not. Better that they should do it on their own terms.
We can't win
Peace and the children
ed
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I don't know why some of you get on your high horse about there not being anything remotely like a "palestinian people" ever. Before Israel, there was the Palestinian Mandate where Arabs and Jews happened to live. Gaza was administered by Egypt, the West Bank by Jordan. Nobody talked about a "palestinian people" or a "palestinian state" until those territories were captured by Israel in 1967 and the concept was invented to justify a continued genocidal war of terror against Israel. There is no distinct palestinian language, culture, or other affinity. The only thing these people have in common is their desire to destroy Israel. History's irnoy is that the harder they try, the greater the pain, suffering and havoc they wreck on themselves. As things stand, sooner or later some terrible fate will befall them that nobody can fix. An epidemic, a breakdown of a vital utility such as water, sewers, etc. Their best hope is for Gaza to again be administered by Egypt under strict supervision of an outside third party like the US or the UN and for what areas of the West Bank are not absorbed into Israel to rejoin Jordan. Jerusalem will remain the eternal and undivided capital of Israel just as Barack Obama said during his visit. The sooner these Arabs accept that Israel will continue to exist, that the 1967 borders are ancient history that for security and now practical reasons will never be retreated to, the sooner the Arab misery and death will stop and not before. As a political war fought with military means, the Arabs have lost. Time to recognize that and move on.
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341. At 1:37pm on 16 Nov 2008, Xie_Ming
About what the NAZIS (not Germans) did in Russia...
I think BBC production: The Nazis, a Warning From History - actually captured the number of dead (soldiers and civilians) Russians due to Nazi Germany.
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332. At 11:20am on 16 Nov 2008, TrueToo wrote:
326. ex1312,
Ain't got no time now."
No never have any time to learn apparently.
" But briefly, the West was hardly "reeling with guilt" over the Holocaust. In fact, the US and many others had very strict limits indeed on how many refugees they would accept (if any) fleeing the Holocaust."
How do these two statments add up?
"Britain went a step further and actively tried to deny the Jews the state that Britain was mandated to help establish."
Really what "mandate" obliged the british to disposses the Palestinian people?
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"340. At 1:36pm on 16 Nov 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
I don't know why some of you get on your high horse about there not being anything remotely like a "palestinian people" ever. "
because it is a form of ethnic genocide. You approve?
"Before Israel, there was the Palestinian Mandate where Arabs and Jews happened to live. Gaza was administered by Egypt, the West Bank by Jordan. Nobody talked about a "palestinian people""
Really? So Roman Palestine did not exist? And palestine? That is a word invented by the British?
The people who live in palestine are palestinians, its not hard to grasp.
Ther were no irish people before 1922?
Such stupid ignorance has to be seen to be beleived.
or a "palestinian state" until those territories were captured by Israel in 1967 and the concept was invented to justify a continued genocidal war of terror against Israel. "
Oh so it is the Palestinians who are blackading Israel, forcing women to give birth at checkpoints, shooting Israeli schoolgirls in the back, starving a whole popul;ation?
Hmm
"There is no distinct palestinian language, culture, or other affinity."
In fact there is, and this type of third reich nonsense is unbeleivable.
What are the moderators doing allowing this sort of thing to appear on the boards.
"The only thing these people have in common is their desire to destroy Israel. History's irnoy is that the harder they try, the greater the pain, suffering and havoc they wreck on themselves. As things stand, sooner or later some terrible fate will befall them that nobody can fix. An epidemic, a breakdown of a vital utility such as water, sewers, etc."
You are hoping for genocide? You approve of this - answer please
"Their best hope is for Gaza to again be administered by Egypt under strict supervision of an outside third party like the US or the UN and for what areas of the West Bank are not absorbed into Israel to rejoin Jordan"
Yes there will never be a Palestinin state or a pure Israeli one, there needs to be one o non-religious state
That is Israel's only realistic hope
."Jerusalem will remain the eternal and undivided capital of Israel just as Barack Obama said during his visit. "
Except Jerusalem is divided and is slowly dying
"The sooner these Arabs accept that Israel will continue to exist, that the 1967 borders are ancient history that for security and now practical reasons will never be retreated to, the sooner the Arab misery and death will stop and not before. As a political war fought with military means, the Arabs have lost. Time to recognize that and move on."
Really well Israel still seems to see the need to kill schoolchildren. Seems like the "war" is not over
You should be reminded that people with your views on semites did not do so well in Nuremberg in 1945
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"322. At 09:35am on 16 Nov 2008, TrueToo wrote:
"321. Simon21,
You guys are going to give clutching at straws a deeper meaning. I'm sure MarcusAureliusII (at no. 296) can speak for himself, but to assume he is advocating genocide of the Palestinians is an extraordinary leap even for people on this site."
Yes supporting genocide is extraordinary, what would you call it?
"And he said:
If I were in Britain, I'd start worrying a lot more about my own future and a lot less about the "palestinians'."
The Brits here would do well to take that good advice."
And the US would do well, (and will do) to stop appeasing the Israelis, appeasement never works.
"And Simon21, endlessly repeating this brand new idea you have that anti-Semitism is a term describing an attitude directed against Arabs wont turn it into reality. But if you insist on doing it, at least try to spell it correctly. I've seen antisemitism and anti-semitism but there's always only one 'e' in the term."
Perhaps you should consider your own very extreme views about "arabs" before attemtping to correct spelling mistakes.
After all you do wholeheartedly endorse the oppression of 4 million people, simply because it suits the occupying power.
This may not be simply due to anti-semitism but rather simple power worship and a hatred of the weak, seen in many right-wingers.
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i've been reading this blog for a while and i find it troubling that it's veered off into the realm of Isreal bashing.
The fact that 6 million jews were killed in the shoah is historical fact and minimizing the holocaust doesn't help anyone in the region today.
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MAII,
The Palestinian Arabs have long differed from their neighbours in culture and dialect, although boundaries have changed over time. Whatever the case before 1967, however, there is undeniably a Palestinian national identity now: the quickest way to solidify such an identity is by persecution, and the Israelis and some of the Arab governments have provided plenty of that. Your racist attitude to the Palestinians, including your attempt to deny them an identity. is disgusting, but only too typical of uncritical supporters of Israel.
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To#121
READ THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
My number here #113 and this "someone" is Robert Willard Bennett, and if by December 1, 2008, a "legal" Birth Certificate is not produced by Mr. Obama then the entire nation is in deep trouble. No matter how many wish this basic issue would "just go away" there are MILLIONS of American citizens that are demanding the law be keep. This is the duty of the Supreme Court and of the Congress---to keep the law. There is no United States government without the Constitution.
I ask again the simple question "WHY!" doesn't Mr.Obama settle the entire issue very quickly and produce what he says he has? There is something very wrong here. I have to have a birth certificate even to leave and get back into the country. Why can't Obama produce a "real one" to be President? Can ANYONE understand a British Prime Minister who was a sworn citizen of another country? America is sure in a mess today, what I fear most is that something really bad is going to happen and harm our entire political process. How many times have we all said "we are a nation of laws" and now it appears our country may fall into anarchy with unlawful political, economic and racial problems. If ever the law was important, now the time.
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# 348
Can you establish your "historical fact" as to body count? I am sure that you cannot!
Introducing the Shoa to excuse the present atrocities of Israel is invalid.
Nor will Arab and Palestinian bashing by the usual suspects on this board excuse the attempted genocide and continuing ethnic cleansing by Israel.
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Luacene,
Nor does denial of the NakbaSalaam/Shalom
ed
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Zionism and its impact
Kinda says it all, don't it?Peace and Justice
ed
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Simple Simon 345
You can bandy around perjorative words like genocide all you like, they have no real meaning or impact because your entire thesis is based on a pack of lies. It wasn't the Israelis who said for decades that they wanted to throw all the Arabs into the sea, it was the other way around. And it wasn't the Israelis who called for the destruction of all of the Arab states, that was the other way around too. But at this point, after what they've been through, it would hardly surprise me if many Israelis now felt that way and I for one would not blame them.
Ed Uglyheart, I for one no longer care what happens to the so called palestinians. They seem to live on hatred alone. They have squandered every one of many opportunities for peace with Israel over the last 60 years. They voted for a governenment which both the US and EU recognize as terrorists. In fact for many Americans, the word palestinian and terrorist have become synonamous. There are many people who are suffering around the world as the result of tragedies not of their own making and are therefore far more deserving of our help than these people are. In the end their hatred will destroy them just as the real motive behind this pretense of concern, European hatred for Jews will destroy Europe as well. And I no longer care about that either.
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rwbennett@350,
Watch out! There's "BLACK HELICOPTERS!" about, and I think I see a hole in your "TINFOIL HAT!!".
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Right, MAII, even the 5-year-old Palestinians are terrorists, heh?
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MAII,
Get medical help. Please. Seriously. Your combination of delusion and hatred could be dangerous to yourself and others.
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Don't both sides of the conflict think they have a God-given right to be there?
If so, talking about your points of view is useless. Bloodshed will continue.
As to who supports which side, I'd say there are components to the whole mess that the public will not be told, and that governments will continue work for the side that benefits them most no matter what we say.
So raise your blood pressure if you like, but don't expect the results you want unless it coincides with governmental interests.
(Asserting that governments always work in their own best interest breaks down when examining some of the actions of the Bush administration, but oh well.)
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350 - "...what I fear most is that something really bad is going to happen and harm our entire political process. How many times have we all said "we are a nation of laws" and now it appears our country may fall into anarchy with unlawful political, economic and racial problems."
We are already in trouble.
We have a bunch of hysterical sore losers who are going nuts with pseudo-facts on the internet, who are verbally and sometime physically attacking people who are sporting Obama signs or a similar color skin. Even children are under attack by these cowards.
The offspring of these [put in words which would guarantee moderation] types are being carefully taught hateful and hate-filled ideas, ensuring this kind of [bleep] goes on into the future.
They have bets going over a possible date for the death of the United State's President-elect.
Terrorists must be thrilled with these good ol' boys who, working from within, are saving them from having to raise a finger.
The whole world is watching.
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358. nessie1945
Rare good sense!
There is also something that used to be called a "Fifth Column".
These can influence a government to work against its own best interests.
Let us hypothesize that this has happened in the USA.
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From tvnblog.org -
The New America!
Now that America has decided, we can all celebrate The New America.
The critics of American "Hypocracy" ("Hypocracy" is defined by the Urban Dictionary as
"What Democracy turns into when all of the politicians in your country are liars.") can now be silenced.
For centuries, the American Dream was denied to many Americans because our citizens failed to reach out and hold their politicians' feet to the fire with the strong grip of their votes and shake form their pockets the sweet desserts so eloquently stated in paragraph two of our beloved Declaration of Independence -
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
At the time, certain citizens (women, Negroes and others) were excluded. But, over time, we remedied these inequalities by learning to decipher the direction indicated by our moral compass. Now that we are on course to live up to our potential, we must stay the course.
Just as we broke with our past for good reason to create the first New America in 1776, we must all, as the modern New Americans, now dedicate ourselves to maintain the equality we have reached out and shaken loose from our past - to guard and covet it for our descendants, for those with whom we disagree, for those who are different.
The first line of our beautiful Declaration of Independence tells us why we must break with
the Old America -
"When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them..."
The moral compass of The New America has brought us to a new "course of human events" that requires we New Americans to assume the new hard-won powers of equality and separate from the Old American past scarred with inequality.
We must renew our vows to the American Dream that all peoples of the Earth are created equal with the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. With vows in hand, we must then act with a firm grip on our fellow citizens and our politicians with the promise that the American Dream cannot be taken from anyone and that we will guard and defend The Dream for our descendants, for those with whom we disagree, for those who are different.
And as The New Americans, we must pledge that whosoever would have the audacity to try to take
The New American Dream from us must pry it from our cold, dead hands...
Please read our Declaration of Independence at:
http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/freedom/doi/text.html
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If any of you folks are near the coast in Indonesia - this might be a good time to head for higher ground.
Tsunami alert.
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354. At 4:42pm on 16 Nov 2008, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Simple Simon 345
Oh dear, touched a nerve did I? Don't wr orry won't reply in find, antisemetic m--- being a tautology.
"You can bandy around perjorative words like genocide all you like,"
Antisemitic is not pejorative. The word has a definite meaning. You openly admit to hating semites.
"they have no real meaning or impact because your entire thesis is based on a pack of lies. It wasn't the Israelis who said for decades that they wanted to throw all the Arabs into the sea,"
Really? They just did it,slightly worse. Try reading (get your mother to explain ths term) and that way you won't seem such a fool.
". And it wasn't the Israelis who called for the destruction of all of the Arab states, that was the other way around too."
Hmm not sure, they certainly saw themselves as dominating the Arab states (whatever they are in this context). And teh Artab states have offered Israel peace terms frequently, but the Israeli extreme right rejects them, as rightists usually do reject peace offers.
" But at this point, after what they've been through, it would hardly surprise me if many Israelis now felt that way and I for one would not blame them."
You would support genocide - Your own words
Straight answer please
"Ed Uglyheart, I for one no longer care what happens to the so called palestinians. They seem to live on hatred alone. They have squandered every one of many opportunities for peace with Israel over the last 60 years. "
They have not agreed to commit national suicide?
How heartless of them
They voted for a governenment which both the US and EU recognize as terrorists. In fact for many Americans, the word palestinian and terrorist have become synonamous."
In your eyes black and criminal, European and coward, disabled and whining, gay and corrupt are synanomous. Don't know about Asian but one suspects you regard them as all as being sneeky.
Your far-right prejudices are predictable.
"There are many people who are suffering around the world as the result of tragedies not of their own making and are therefore far more deserving of our help than these people are."
Are there where? And does the US supply the weapons to kill their children?
"In the end their hatred will destroy them just as the real motive behind this pretense of concern, European hatred for Jews will destroy Europe as well. And I no longer care about that either. "
Is that so? Seems like you are the one with hatred remember Hitler claimed he would destroy all the jews - he failed too
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348. At 2:30pm on 16 Nov 2008, luacene wrote:
i've been reading this blog for a while and i find it troubling that it's veered off into the realm of Isreal bashing.
The fact that 6 million jews were killed in the shoah is historical fact and minimizing the holocaust doesn't help anyone in the region today."
But claiming that gives anyone the right to starve, shoot, murder and beat women and children is not helpfull either
Is it
It is not a case of "Israeli bashing", no country has the right to systematically destroy another ethnic group, whatever the cause.
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nessie1945,
According to the BBC, the tsunami alert has just been lifted.
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Alert lifted?
Good.
We have interesting fault lines and undersea volcanic vents off the coast of Oregon. Our most recent was a respectable 5.8.
Anyway... Anyone who didn't read MSNBC's story about our far-right's beginning slide onto violence (they'll escalate, I betcha):
MSNBC/Associated Press:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081116/ap_on_re_us/obama_racial;_ylt=AsXAp7i2B1uUefYXmFhCVFis0NUE
Paline may not have caused this, but she threw gas on the fire. When it gets worse, her future as a candidate will take a hit - that's the only silver lining to this cloud.
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275. At 9:42pm on 15 Nov 2008, mad gherkin
still proving how mad you are eh.
Mostly just wrong.
America is in the bog at the moment.
America got it there.
So why is America so great.
Because the lemmings here decided that "heck that truck wont be a drain will it,I'm positive"
"heck 25 miles per gallon is exceptional milage.I'm positive."
And as mr freidman finally noticed and mentioned on meet the press today
" heck these gas guzzlers will sell like hot cakes if we give them free gas for a year,I'm positive"
Keep up your Old american thinking, erroneous.
the stone age will return if you try hard enough.
BTW where are you going to get any materials from if they all decide not to help some hateful bigots in the states?
Take it.
ha ha
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liar erronious.
" where did I say ALL Europeans are cowards. Stupid yes, cowards no"
plenty of time go re read your own crap if you can't keep it straight. most find you crap hard enough to read (or make sense of ) the first time and are not likely to want to reread your pathetic ramblings.
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MAII@367,
Although you lack the guts to come right out with it, genocide is the obvious endpoint of your hatred for Palestinians.
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348. At 2:30pm on 16 Nov 2008, luacene wrote:
i've been reading this blog for a while and i find it troubling that it's veered off into the realm of Isreal bashing.
The fact that 6 million jews were killed in the shoah is historical fact and minimizing the holocaust doesn't help anyone in the region today.
--------------------
welcome tho the world of double standards.
did you read anything posted in defence of the strong feelings against Israel that offend you?
What part of "fine if you want to address the "victimhood" of the jewish people then give them Germany.
It was not the people of palestine that built gas chambers.
They were not the nation that helped and profited from the German war machine, that was you Yanks.
The paliestinians were not the ones that had the Isolation and resources to help defeat the Nazi's and their great plan , but ignored it until it was too late.
(america).
So where are you from?
The people in Darfur are being oppressed. I suggest we move them into your house.
If you get pissed off at that we will have to treat you as a criminal.
OK?
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Always erroneous, I for one no longer care what happens to the so called Israeli's. They seem to live on hatred alone. They have squandered every one of many opportunities for peace with Palestine over the last 60 years. They voted for a governenment which both the UN and EU recognize as terrorists. In fact for many in the world, the word Israeli and terrorist have become synonamous. There are many people who are suffering around the world as the result of tragedies not of their own making and are therefore far more deserving of our help than these people are. In the end their hatred will destroy them just as the real motive behind this pretense of concern, American hatred for Palestinians will destroy America as well. And I no longer care about that either.
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Nick-No-Gotts, genocide has been American policy since the start of the cold war. And NATO's. And the USSR's. What do you think Mutually Assured Destruction was about? What do you think 40,000 thermonuclear weapons NATO and the USSR had aimed at each other was about? It's been Arab policy against Israel for 60 years. It was British and French policy during their colonial times. Spain's too. Japan's also. Let's not pretend Israel invented genocide. And genocide as the only viable defense for national preservation is perfectly legitimate. You'd have been hard pressed to find any dissent about that when Britain firebombed Dresden as the Brits thought back on the bombing of London. So get off your high horse and down to earth. If Isreal was really intent on wiping out all of the so called "palestinians" or even all of the Arabs they'd have finished the job decades ago. They've had that ability. How ironic it will be if they are forced to use it.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
327 nick you never did get back on that issue about anti semetism.
you never did answer the questions posed as to your source.
On that issue you have been as blank as true pooh in answering.
Keep it real.
Why do you think it offensive to recognise that a word does not mean what is commonly thought about it.
Truth is another word that here is clearly in possession of more than one meaning by the looks of it.
Good luck
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keep looking at your blinkers and you will never see any thing new.
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Re: 320 TrueToo:
"Your interpretation of the data is conveniently skewed towards your own bias. Fact is, a majority of those who did venture an opinion said it would be a terrorist state.
And why is the question "dreadfully biased?" A majority of Gazans elected Hamas, recognised as a terrorist group by the US, EU and others, to lead them; and it looks like Hamas will take over the West Bank as well. Do you have a problem with people accurately describing terrorists?"
The term "terrorist" is a shibboleth. In your opinion, Palestinians are terrorists, as is the state run by Hamas. In the opinion of others, neither of those statements is true. Both sides often hold very strong opinions on the subject, as is amply demonstrated in many postings above. The word is clearly divisive, and strongly marks out differing groups of belief.
When such a term is used in a research poll, it will polarize or otherwise skew results. In the poll I referenced, its use in the question is arguably what generated the very large portion of "don't know" responses. Faced with a choice between "terrorist state" and "stable, peaceful democracy," most people are going to balk, as neither choice fits what they believe. Those who respond with a yes or no are going to be those with very strong beliefs on either side of the shibboleth line, or those who recognize that they are being asked a manipulative question.
As to my "biased" interpretation of the results, you are correct in pointing out that a majority of people who expressed an opinon one way or the other lie on the "terrorist state" side of the question. However, because of the flawed nature of the question, this is hardly surprising. Fully 68% of respondents disagreed with the "terrorist state" choice, indicating to me that they fall on the other side of the shibboleth line. This I find encouraging.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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ref #372
You really do live in a parallel universe.
Well I am glad your obvious hatread for a greeat democracy has come out openly.
Question how many treaties or truces have the terrorists of Hams and Hezbollah honored
Answer )
Israel has honored it peace treaties with legitimate players.
Let the Palestinians rot, they made their own bed; let them lie in it.
Proud to be friends with Israel, a country that is ruled by law not by thugs.
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MarcusAureliusII
I'm lost for words that anybody can defend the use or threat of genocide. It may be a political and military reality when it comes to nuclear arms but that does not justify its existence.
To wipe out a culture and a people that have exited for thousands of years on any grounds on the whim a a particular leader or political structure is.......again lost for words.
"genocide as the only viable defense for national preservation is perfectly legitimate"
What does a notion exactly men to you, does it have some sort of divine existence? It is nothing more that an abstraction created by politicians to draw lines on maps, does it really deserve a status overriding the existence of a people?
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ref #366
You are quoting a propganda network like MSNBC?
Chris Mathews who stated his job is now to make sure Obama suceeds.
The #1 hate monger in the media: Keith Obermann
A refugee from the defunct Air America, Rachel Madow
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The Republican Party concentrated its strength in the rural, the uneducated and the evangelicals. This is more or less a single group whose influence and size were overestimated. I wrote about this early in the campaign asking why so much attention was being paid to the right-wing religious (even by Obama) since increasing education and sophistication would render them an endangered species.
The election told the story and now I get to say, "I told you so." Not generous of me, but what the hell, it feels good to be right.
The Republican Party is now torn in two. You have Palin, who is still championing the lowest elements of society, and a more liberal group who sound a lot like Democrats, but aren't. Neither has developed an intellectual framework for their positions - they are just looking for future votes. Good luck.
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MarcusAureliusII
"genocide as the only viable defense for national preservation is perfectly legitimate"
Come to think of it is that not the argument the Nazi?s used.
Please enlighten me on the difference if I am wrong or are you saying that particular branch of Nazi policy was legitimate?
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384, bk9061.
Now you know why I call him staphylococcus aureus.
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jacksforge,
Yes I did. I referred you to wikipedia, which has extensive information. Go back to the thread on which we were arguing the point (I can't recall which it was), and you'll find my comment pointing you to it, but meanwhile, just google "antisemitism" and follow the wikipedia link. Briefly, the term "antisemitism" was coined by a 19th century German antisemite, Wilhelm Marr. Moreover, it meant more than just disliking Jews: Marr claimed that there is a huge Jewish conspiracy, Jews are intrinsically evil, etc. Antisemitism is thus a very specific ideology. "Semite" itself is a term from the 19th century pseudo-science of racial anthropology; it has no modern scientific meaning. The attempt to make "antisemitic" refer to prejudice against either Jews or Arabs is about 40 years old, and is part of the propaganda war between supporters and opponents of Israel. It was never used in that way before then. (If you dispute this, provide sources.)
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#380
I think he just copied out something that Marcus aurelius posted and replaced Israel with Palestine (for a joke).
#371
I never said that the palestinians carried out the holocaust i was just questioning the point in debating whether the Jews have been lying this whole time and it was really only 350,000 or whatever that have been killed.
#364
In what part of Israeli policy are they trying to "systematically destroy" an ethnic group. There has been horrific violence on both sides but saying that Israelis are trying to do that is outrageous
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allmymarbles
i can see the uncanny resemblance
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To 359 nessie1945:
Quote[The offspring of these [put in words which would guarantee moderation] types are being carefully taught hateful and hate-filled ideas, ensuring this kind of [bleep] goes on into the future.
They have bets going over a possible date for the death of the United State's President-elect.
Terrorists must be thrilled with these good ol' boys who, working from within, are saving them from having to raise a finger.
The whole world is watching.]
To say that the whole world is watching is an understatement. My personal view of the stock market is that it will be extraordinarily volatile until after January 20, 2009. And if anything were to happen to Obama, wife, or kids, between now and then, it would be a disaster for Republican democracy in the U.S. and throughout the world (and for the world economy, too).
Obama is a brave man. He is seeking progress by testing the American system - and quite honestly, the U.S. needs this test to progress to a higher level. He is a brave man indeed.
Directly after the election, I posted this on my blog at Facebook:
Lyndon is honestly surprised that America elected a black man to the Presidency. Just 2.5 months to inaugural. Obama is now the most safely guarded man in the world.
I sincerely hope that he makes it to January 20 and serves as POTUS for at least the first four years.
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This site is being manipulated by one obsessive pro-Israeli blogger (Magic) and one polemicist (Marcus) who seems to hellbent on imposing his nihilism across the whole range of BBC blogs (see also the website Hysterical Asylum for article entitled 'Marcus Aurelius II is the Devil).
Ugly things have been written today (Marcus again) and decent people have tried to respond with reasoned arguments - but the irony remains that a discussion which started off about American optimism has been led off by two rotten eggs into a very dark place indeed.
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I shan't address MAII directly again, as I don't talk to proponents of genocide, but I note that while the bombing of Dresden was almost certainly a war crime, it was not genocide or attempted genocide: there was no intention to wipe out the Germans as a people. Even the nuclear policies of the current nuclear-armed powers, appalling as they are, are not genocidal in the strict sense. Genocide implies deliberate and systematic targeting of members of a racial, ethnic, religious or national group as such.
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#383 Allmymarbles:
"The Republican Party is now torn in two. You have Palin, who is still championing the lowest elements of society, and a more liberal group who sound a lot like Democrats, but aren't. Neither has developed an intellectual framework for their positions - they are just looking for future votes. Good luck."
The choice for the Republican party appears to be ideological purity as represented by Sarah Palin or electability in the shape of someone like Bobby Jindal, right now they seem to be leaning towards purity and it may take a worse defeat in four years to persuade them that changes are needed. The base is no longer big enough to win without adding a lot of centre voters, accomodating the two in one party will be the challenge.
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"Terrorism" has many definitions.
Most interesting is that offered by the US Congress in Amendments to the US Code.
According to the Congress, no nation-state or its employees can commit terrorism. However, a state can hire terrorists as contractors to do the work.
This nicely lets those directly on the government payroll perform acts that would otherwise be "terrorist" acts.
There are other definitions, such as bombing a city from 10,000 feet, etc.
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To 393:
American Heritage Definition of Terrorism:
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.
I always teach my students that terrorism, by this definition, means that the threat or use of force by the "terrorist" originates with an illegal entity - that is, a group or political element that lacks recognition (in the general consensus) as a legal entity. Hence, "States" cannot commit terrorist acts because a "State" is a recognized legal entity.
For example, before the American Revolution succeeded, all American forces were "terrorists" in the eyes of King George III of Great Britain. King George likely had standing orders to try for treason, then hang any American soldier or political leader.
After the American Revolution succeeded, and after the U.S. Constitution afforded U.S. "Statehood" under the political scheme of Europe and the world, the U.S. "terrorists" became soldiers.
In the same vein, soldiers kill innocent women and children as part of war. They are not terrorists because they are carrying out the will of the state. "Terrorists" are, however, not carrying out the will of the state, and "civilization" views their actions as vile and contemptible, because their actions go against the popular consensus.
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bk9061
""genocide as the only viable defense for national preservation is perfectly legitimate"
Come to think of it is that not the argument the Nazi?s used."
No it isn't. The German people were not under any attack or threat from Jews. Neither was anyone else. Jews were probably the most pacifist people in the history of the world, they were not a threat to anyone. They made the perfect victims and scapegoats. They were led like lambs to the slaughter. That's what they mean by never again. History has taught them that if they want to survive they will have to fight. And now they have available to them the most powerful weapons ever conceived in sufficient quantity to wipe out any enemy including the entire human race. BTW, as I pointed out, that has been America's strategy ever since the dawn of the nuclear age and the start of the cold war. Eisenhower wanted worldwide nuclear disarmament with very intrusive inspections at any time to prevent a nuclear arms race but Stalin said no and so the arms race was born. Kennedy learned during the Cuban missile crisis to his horror that the US only had one nuclear war fighting strategy and that was to burn down everything from the Danube River to the Pacific Ocean. And they would have, we were only hours away at the height of the crisis. Yes, if Israel feels its existance as a nation is threatened, even if it is not attacked first, as in Iran acquiring the ability to manufacture nuclear weapons, it will be perfectly justified in taking out the entire Middle East...and it can.
"To wipe out a culture and a people that have exited for thousands of years on any grounds on the whim a a particular leader or political structure is.......again lost for words."
"...does it really deserve a status overriding the existence of a people?"
Funny bk9061, your reaction of horror to my suggestion that it is OK for the Israelis to wipe out the Arab world or the entire human race for that matter if its existance is threatened doesn't seem to have a comparable counterpart of horror that it is OK for Hamas, Hezbollah or Iran to wipe out the Israelis. One would assume that when it comes to genocide, you are playing favorites as your fellow Jew haters do. But the question is who is actually being threatened with extinction and needs to react pre-emptively if necessary. That has a clear answer. How nice to see that history invariably seems to play out the way it should. Not only do people get the governments they deserve as the saying goes, but the entire human race gets what it deserves as well. Perhaps that is why it is so angry.
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383 - marbles said: "The Republican Party concentrated its strength in the rural, the uneducated and the evangelicals. This is more or less a single group whose influence and size were overestimated. I wrote about this early in the campaign asking why so much attention was being paid to the right-wing religious (even by Obama) since increasing education and sophistication would render them an endangered species."
You're only partially correct. They are not endangered, but endangering. There will always be some of the far right tucked away in cracks and crevices in the U.S. Some of them appear reasonably nice until pressured, and the triggers for their less admirable behavior might surprise you - or any rational person.
Right now with the regime of their choice on the way out (having made our country a shambles) and the goddess of their dreams considered a joke by much of the world, they feel backed to the wall and will lash out at anyone they think is a threat. That is, anyone unlike them.
They forget they removed the land they live on from the people who were already here, but that's neither here nor there in this discussion. Just a pet peeve.
Many of them are avowed white supremacists. They have almost no education (and see those who do as threats), many are obviously unintelligent ("thick as whale soup") and they have no prospects other than the hope that God likes white people better. (Don't ask me. I can't figure that one out either.) They interpret God's will as the tune their preachers play on a bible and when others disagree they see it as heresy. There is NO "to each their own" in this subculture.
And what makes me think I know [bleep] about this? My mother was the first person in our family to get a college education (thank you, U.S. military!) and I've got relatives who fit that category. My grandfather wore a sheet to meetings. I thought "d*mnyankee" was one word until I was 12. I got out as soon as I could and moved almost as far from Alabama as I could get without swimming for it or freezing body parts off every winter. I still eat collards, fried okra and cornbread, but that as far as I'll go towards "home."
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"In 1938, Ben-Gurion also stated against the backdrop of the First Palestinian Intifada:
"When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves ---- that is ONLY half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves. . . . But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict, which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves." (Righteous Victims, p. 652) thanks for the link Ed I.!)
So many self-proclaimed defenders of Israel see only half the truth. The conflict is first and foremost a political conflict, and in this Israel is now, as Ben-Gurion knew then, the aggressor.
There is no military or security solution to the conflict. It is essentially a political conflict, and any resolution to it will necessarily be political. Given the current levels of animosity between the adversaries, such a solution seems so remote as to be almost unattainable.
If Obama's administration changes US policy toward Israel, it may put Israel in a talking mood. And, if Israel is talking, perhaps Fatah, if not Hamas, may respond in kind. Even in a best case scenario, it will take a long time to build enough trust between the parties to even begin to address the substance of the issues that divide them.
So I guess we'll be hearing alot from staphylococcus aureus and his ilk for a long time to come. What joy.
Yours,
A Canadian Pinko, off to have a glass of wine (not, I stress, whine!)
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MarcusAureliusII
"The German people were not under any attack or threat from Jews"
I think the Nazi party of the time would and did argue exactly that.
Again argument that accepts genocide as viable is nothing short of madness.
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Nick-No-Gotts
"... I note that while the bombing of Dresden was almost certainly a war crime, it was not genocide or attempted genocide: there was no intention to wipe out the Germans as a people. Even the nuclear policies of the current nuclear-armed powers, appalling as they are, are not genocidal in the strict sense. Genocide implies deliberate and systematic targeting of members of a racial, ethnic, religious or national group as such."
Not genocide? Oh really. Every Russian city is targeted. Every Soviet City was targeted. Every Chinese city is targeted. Moscow was believed to be the most heavily targeted city in the world with at least 67 nuclear weapons designated for it between the US, the UK, and France according to one article I'd read during the last decade of the cold war. And this presented a problem. It seems there was concern that by the time the manned bombers arrived to drop their bombs, there would be no trace of where the city had been just a few hours earlier to give the pilot and bombardier visual cues. The first couple of dozen or so would have wiped away all traces of where the city had once been and they could only have aimed their weapons at a readout of coordinates. It was believed less than two hundred nuclear weapons would have been all that was necessary to end the USSR as an organized society but there were around ten thousand destined for it. In fact the radioactive fallout would have killed all of the rest of humanity had the USSR not launched a single weapon in retaliation. Interestingly, 17 years after the end of the USSR and the underlying reason for these arsenals, there are still thousands on both sides aimed at each other, the psychology of them precluding either side from trusting the other to the point where we can get rid of them. Today, should North Korea attack the south, its life expectency as a nation is under twelve minutes. If that's not genocide, I don't know what is.
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bk9061
"MarcusAureliusII
"The German people were not under any attack or threat from Jews"
I think the Nazi party of the time would and did argue exactly that."
That was part of Goebbels "Big Lie." The Jews didn't even have hand guns or rifles. They did not constitute a mafia. They did not have any organized crime gangs the way the Sicilians formed in the US during Prohibition. There wasn't a single solitary shred of evidence for it. OTOH, that Israel is under constant threat and attack can be proven with hard evidence every single day. Just stand around in any town near the border with Gaza and wait for the incoming rockets to land or wait for Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to make a speech.
Europe is very concerned about the prospect of an Iranian nuclear weapon. Even left wing BBC published an article about a year ago advising which weapon in America's nuclear arsenal they preferred as a bunker buster for Iran's underground laboratories and factories. As I recall, I think they recommended the B-61.
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I see the genocidal psychopath is still posting his ravings.
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394, ex1312.
If you win a war, you are a hero.
If you lose a ware, you are a war criminal.
How would you classify Bush?
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I dont see what the point is of assigning an aggressor. Its much more complicated than that.
People dont understand that while the "naqba" was happening Israel happened to be under attack by all of its neighbours after the Arabs rejected the partition plan (and Israel declared its statehood). Whatever you say about the morality of what it did to the palestinians in 1948 Isreal was fighting for its very existence.
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396, Nessie.
I agree there will always be nutsos around, and that some of the lunatic right, or other loonys, will always be with us. But I believe that the non-nutso evangelicals, those who are merely uneducated and isolated from the mainstream will, as they move up in society, shed their extreme beliefs.
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Hey 36. toby792
Well said.
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404 - Maybe so.
It's sort of what we did. But then we never were in the far right "mainstream" either.
My mother risked both our lives insisting that we sit in the back of the bus - probably to the horror of the people who HAD to sit there in the early 50's. We had men follow us to let us know that they knew where we lived if we didn't behave.
I hope that now - when news, movies and TV make different opinions daily fare - a lot of young people will stand on the side of sanity.
I hope you're right.
But don't forget the Palin rallys.
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luacene, the spirit of Neville Chamberlain is alive and well all over Europe and to some degree on the American left. This is reason enough for America to bid farewell to its fair weather false friends and recognize that the only one that can and will defend America is America. Israel not only was but has always been and still is in a fight for its existance. Many Israelis seem to have forgotten that. The way the war in Lebanon was fought shows that Israel has softened dangerously. Iraq and Afghanistan show that the US has done the same. We have the power but lack the will to use it decisively. That had better change if we are going to remain free. As for Europe, it's headed for disaster on many fronts. It's time for America to write it off as a lost cause. I did a long long time ago.
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380 Gherkin troll
that's a good one.
he he.
Wow so I change a few words to the other side and you are off on one eh?
But excuse me carry on.
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386 and go back and see that your dubious references are